From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 1 00:35:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA24912; Tue, 1 May 2001 00:32:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 00:32:23 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Microturbine efficiency is low Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 17:31:48 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20010501035815.39809.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20010501035815.39809.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA24884 Resent-Message-ID: <"uVplA3.0.556.7Qcxw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42298 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michael Schaffer's message of Mon, 30 Apr 2001 20:58:15 -0700 (PDT): [snip] >The 500kV DC long distance technology exists and is in use. Part of the Pacific >intertie is now of this kind. If memory serves me correctly (and it often does >not) I think that some systems now exist at greater than 500 kV. [snip] Thanks Michael, do you or anyone else following this know what the distance limits are, or more accurately the % loss / km (mile if you prefer)? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 1 00:52:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA28218; Tue, 1 May 2001 00:51:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 00:51:40 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 03:54:39 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: "Bruce A. Perreault" cc: jlnlabs@egroups.com, Vortex Subject: Re: No radioactive....Re: Different Lamps ... Radiant Energy In-Reply-To: <3AEDBCC8.1C26@cyberportal.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"5L6zi2.0.qu6.Cicxw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42299 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, A wonderful area with sophisticated and very high efficiency drivers is the realm of Cold Cathode lamps. The first place to look for cold cathode high ion high brightness electron tube is the lamps in the backlight for most laptop computers. These are long, skinny cold cathode tubes... and are called by the industry.... cold cathode tubes..... Many of them are so bright they are uncomfortable to look at in their RAW version. For several years the manufacturers have been racing to make the supplies better and better, more efficient, lower losses in every area have driven advances in several key places in the area of Materials Sciences Research and Direct Energy Conversion. This is truly an exciting area and if you open several searches in Direct Energy Conversion I think all of the community will be glad they did. These are some of the issues that may come to the fore in a commercially successful Cold Cathode Lamp application running from the 115 VAC supplies. From some recent trade specification of existing Cold Cathode lamp driver circuits whic you can find embeddedd in products you buy, such as your laptop or other high end flat screen or small area lighting application. a] Power Factor conversions of 0.96 are being realized commercially. b] Cold Cathode lamp drivers with 1:100 percents dimming capability. c] High frequency conversion programmable from 100 K CPS to 1 Meg CPS and 97 percents efficient Each of the circuit sub sections, above, can be purchased as stand alones usually in the less-than-4-dollar range. I will dig up some tube stuff for you as well. The technical world is going in fits and starts ... some moves fast, some slow, but it usually moves. My primary reason for posting in response to Bruce's or any other post often falls in one of a few categories these days: 1} Try to get a clear, simple answer 2] Try to eliminate or reduce danger, where possible. You will often see my post on the topic of High Voltage. High Voltage ...also called High Tension can hurt or kill you easily .. and it happens SO FAST. An accident where an amount of Radio Active emitter "got loose" ... a small amount, 50 micrograms or low level alpha emitter with a half life of less than 20 years is so scary it cannot be described. If it happens and you are the lucky person who inhales the emitter and it is located then removal is the least harmful thing that happens. I guess you have to talk with someone who has had direct connection to persons who have been poisoned. ------- The Main Point: I am of the opinion an reasonably clever invesigator can arrive at a simple and elegant solution to the "problem" that causes them to think they need an ionizing source in the first place. Q: What IS the need for the ionizing source? Q: What is the magnitude of ionization required, specifically? Q: What, specifically PREVENTS an alternative to a radioactive emitter? On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Bruce A. Perreault wrote: > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > n > > > > Dear Bruce and Folks, > > > > Bruce feels he must have radioactive emitters to realize cold > > cathodes. > > These materials and radioactive emitters are NOT required. The > > lighting industry has given us cold cthod lamps in your lap tops for > > years... and the standard vacuum tube industry has given us cold cathode > > vacuum tubes for years. > > > Ok... tell us all how to manufacture high output radio tubes that have > cold cathodes and do not require radioactive material. > See above for cold cathode high level ion devices. Tube data to follow. Electroluminescent > lamps do not count because they are not even related to ion or even > electron control devices. > > > > > > If there is an alternative to radioactive emitters, why not use > > it? > > > Cold cathode radio tubes were tried over thirty years ago that did not > require radioactive material. They required a complicated manufacturing > proceedure. Can you give us an example of the complicated process, please? If I tried to duplicate the process my energy device would > not move forward in any market. I have developed a cheap, simple process > using naturally occuring radioactive material. From experience, I tell > you that there is no health danger. To think otherwise is just paranoia > that the government has spoon fed you. > > > > > > > > I do not think it is 'bondage' to do without alpha emitters simply > > because one does not know an alternative. > > > We have a powerful force that nature has given us right now at our > figer tips. It is indeed bondage to go on paying the rich oil barrens > with our freedom. We no longer are an independant people. It is time > to get our lives back. > > > > > > > > > > If you hae to choose.... radioactive emitter or better engineering > > and no radioactivity ... how is the choice? > > > What you are saying here is that my engineering is not good. > I do not see anyone who has developed the source of energy > that I have been working with. Do you another energy source > that is "better?" > I am not trying to argue. I am not trying to say a given engineering is good or bad, per se, I have objection to voluntary use of radioactive materials. JHS > > -BAP > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 1 02:55:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA20778; Tue, 1 May 2001 02:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 02:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 06:00:19 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Michael Schaffer cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: ONE ......476 Hz 3 phase/Barnett effect testings In-Reply-To: <20010501041219.41830.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"XJuzE1.0.V45.uUexw"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42300 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, One simple method to see the open circuit resonance, or close to it, for a good sized coil: 1] Outen the function signal generator and set up for Approximately 600 ohms output Z. If you don't know this then just use the standard output provided. Some drive 50 ohms. 2] Using 3 prong to 2 prong plug adaptors and a Plug Strip isolate the signal function generator's ground from the power company and do the same for the oscilloscope. Be SURE to UN DO this after you have finished the test! HOW: Many instrument have 3 prong plugs... 2 prongs from line and one from "GROUND" ..... the USA Line Prongs are "Blades" and the "GROUND" is a smoother reasonably round pin. THE ADAPTOR: This is a "Safety Adaptor" and has two "male" blade and a provision for some type of connection to ground .... and you are going to LEAVE THIS OPEN. This is not safe but will reduce the interaction between the instrument grounds for the test..... this is a HIGHLY OVER SIMPLIFIED EXPLANATION. SO: Plug the oscilloscope into the 2 to 3 prong adaptor and plug the adaptor into the plug strip. THEN: You will do the same with the signal function generator. _______________________ THE TEST ________________________ a] Begin with both instruments are on and the signa generator is output at about 1 volt peak to peak. Begin at about 10 cps or around the lowest frequesncy sine wave you can easily set and see on the O Scope. Certainy NO FASTER THAN 20 CPS !!! b] Connect the ground side of the signal cable from the O-Scope to the ground side of the signal cable from the signal function Generator. c] NOW: You have two leads left..... one signal out from the generator ... at about 1 volt p-p and 10 to 20 CPS sine wave ... and this is connected to one side to the Coil Under Test, or CUT. The O-Scope's signal lead is connected to other other lead of the CUT. OK:.......While watching the O-Scope begin raising the signal FREQUENCY.... at some point the AMPLITUDE of the measured signal will change in size or magnitude .... it may get a little smaller or larger.... and if the coil has any appreciable "Q" or "Quality Factor" at its point of resonance the signal will begin get larger in size in the screen of the scope. When you hae found the Maximum signal, thisis very close to the un loaded Resonant Frequency. As an exercise to see how matters change with circuit elements, try putting SMALL values of C or R across or in series with the coil you are measuring. On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Michael Schaffer wrote: > I haven't been following this thread closely. I don't know if the 60 H coil has > a ferromagnetic or an air core. The interpretation of the data depends on this > and other parameters. > > A coil of this large inductance has a large number of turns, especially if it > is air cored, and you cannot assume that its impedance will be a simple > inductive reactance plus a fixed resistance. If air core, it will have stray > capacitance whose reactance cancels part of the inductive reactance, the > cancellation varying with frequency. Again, if air core, there will be > substantial, perhaps large, resistance due to the sum of all the eddy currents > induced by the winding's magnetic field in all its individual conductors. This > effect can look like a skin effect, because the resistance increases with > frequency. However, it increases more rapidly with frequency than skin effect, > which only increases as the square root of frequency. This eddy current effect > is not often taught nor is it in introductory textbooks, but it is known. It is > an important effect (to be avoided) in large electrical power equipment. > > In order to know your inductor's behavior before you start your experiments, > you should measure its impedance (reactance and resistance, or equivalently, > magnitude and phase) over the full range of frequencies likely to be > encountered in the experiment. Unless you have a variable frequency impedance > meter, you will need an audio signal generator and an oscilloscope. I > personally prefer the generator and scope method, because then I can see if > there are any errors. I have had unhappy experiences with "boxed" impedance > meters. > > > harvey norris wrote: > > For brevity here I have extracted an analysis of > > conclusions as to the skin effect of large 60 Henry > > coils placed into 476 hz from one phase of an AC > > converted alternator where these conclusions follow; > > ( the Barnett effect is that given by an unenergized > > alternator field, whre the the rotor in rotation still > > delivers a miniscule voltage) > > > > So here we are given the frequency as 476 hz, the > > voltage at 35.3 volts, and a resultant conduction of > > .101 ma. > > Since the LCR meter has already shown the coil > > condition to be 60.2 henry the ideal inductive > > reactance can be calculated and then compared to the > > actual real inductive reactance. Of course many people > > will say the meter cannot give accurate readings at > > 1000 hz, but this is only half that value and is > > useful for comparison where until otherwise proven it > > will be regarded as real accurate currents.The > > difference between the predicted inductive reactance > > and the actual inductive reactance can then be > > theorized as a % of influence due to skin effect. > > > > In this scenario it is not sloppy work to > > estimate the inductive reactance to be identical to > > the impedance, which for the larger coils has been > > previously calculated to be within 99.98% identical > > values. For the 14 gauge coil system mathematics > > however that estimation becomes a bit more sloppy with > > at most a couple % difference. So here again the same > > procedure is made to assume these values to be > > synonomous. We then first need to calculate the > > inductive reactance X(L) for a 60.2 henry coil @ 476 > > hz. Again the equation > > X(L)=2(pi)(freq)(L)= 6.28(476)(60.2)=179,954 ohms as > > the impedance approximation > > > > Then given the recorded 35.3 volts producing a .101 ma > > conduction the acting impedance is shown to be > > Z=35.3/(.101*10^-3)=349,504 ohms. So here a wide > > variance is noted between the predicted impedance and > > the actual impedance and a ratio can be formed between > > them to show the influence of the skin efect,and also > > the theorized massive internal capacitance. The ratio > > of 3495/1799= 1.94. Thus as a preliminary analysis > > almost twice the impedance given by formula will exist > > due to the added resistance of of the skin effect at > > 476 hz. What this means is that the predicted voltage > > rises of high coil q's at 476 hz would also be chopped > > in half. Of course all of this is very preliminary as > > no actual models of q voltage rise at this frequency > > have yet been constructed. Since the required > > capacities are so very small, they are being done as > > poly sheet capacities, and the Sr Fe rotor pieces are > > probably quite too high a value for testing at these > > frequencies. > > > > The complete thread concerning this has been placed at > > my messageboard. > > > > Sincereely HDN > > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 1 05:42:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA04624; Tue, 1 May 2001 05:40:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 05:40:44 -0700 Message-ID: <035401c0d233$61d09ac0$f68f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: LTA is Back Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 06:39:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D209.6DAF0860" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"bKrGU.0.A81.Bxgxw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42301 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D209.6DAF0860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/04/30/germany.zeppelin.ap/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D209.6DAF0860 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - Travel - Zeppelin firm aims for summer passenger flights - April 30, 2001.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - Travel - Zeppelin firm aims for summer passenger flights - April 30, 2001.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/04/30/germany.zeppelin.ap/i= ndex.html [DOC#38] BASEURL=3Dhttp://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html ORIGURL=3Dhttp://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html [DOC#377] BASEURL=3Dhttp://ad.preferences.com/oframe;spacedesc=3DThSiteMetricSM0401= _CNNNetwork_1x1_LifeStyle_Any&ML_TARGET=3D_blank&ML_DWTO=3D10&X_RM=3DY&ML= _REDIRECT=3Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.cnn.com%25252Fevent.ng%25252FTyp= e%25253Dclick%252526RunID%25253D48282%252526ProfileID%25253D59%252526AdID= %25253D35758%252526GroupID%25253D35%252526FamilyID%25253D10982%252526TagV= alues%25253D4.298.435.594.742.3654%252526Redirect%25253D ORIGURL=3Dhttp://ad.preferences.com/oframe;spacedesc=3DThSiteMetricSM0401= _CNNNetwork_1x1_LifeStyle_Any&ML_TARGET=3D_blank&ML_DWTO=3D10&X_RM=3DY&ML= _REDIRECT=3Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.cnn.com%25252Fevent.ng%25252FTyp= e%25253Dclick%252526RunID%25253D48282%252526ProfileID%25253D59%252526AdID= %25253D35758%252526GroupID%25253D35%252526FamilyID%25253D10982%252526TagV= alues%25253D4.298.435.594.742.3654%252526Redirect%25253D [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://www.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/04/30/germany.zeppelin.ap/index= .html Modified=3D00EBFD2B33D2C001D9 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D209.6DAF0860-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 1 06:27:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA14753; Tue, 1 May 2001 06:25:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 06:25:40 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 05:31:33 -0900 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner@mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Coal vs fission vs CF Resent-Message-ID: <"0Co8c1.0.Nc3.Jbhxw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42302 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:24 AM 4/28/1, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >>Yes, this is a good approach to consuming coal of appropriate quality. >>There have been a number of pilot methane production plants built back even >>since the 1970's. The problem has always been that it is cheaper per mcf >>to deliver natural gas from wells. This will likely change as reserves >>disappear, making coal gassification an excellent option. > >In the projects described in "Renewable Energy" the gasification occurred >in the power generating plant, using waste heat, I gather. This is >"integrated" operation. They also have "combined cycle" operation in which >steam is generated from the gas turbine waste heat, and the steam goes >through another turbine. This is cheaper and more efficient than the >typical aeroderivative 1992 generators. $250/kW versus $400/kW. 48% >efficiency versus 33%, but I think the aeroderivatives are better today. I am wondering if the integrated gassification approach generates pure methane or whether it produces a large fraction of other gasses, like carbon monoxide? I think lower grade output would permit an increased efficiency over pure methane production and give an edge in efficiency to the integrated operation mode. If pure methane is produced, then it would seem feasible to adapt the process to the production of methane for transport via the present natural gas infrastructure. This is because it should be possible to design a plant of similar efficiency by directing all the output power right back into methane production. > >In a city close to a coal field coal gasification might be cheaper than >gas, and much cleaner than scrubbers. > >The book describes some pretty big projects, 53, 94 and 250 MW. > >The book describes a GE study: "a modest scale . . . gasifier/gas turbine >system offering the best overall performance is an air-blown, >coal-integrated gasifier/intercooled steam-injected gas turbine >(CIG/ISTIG). It was estimated that a 109 MW unit would have an overall >coal-to-busbar efficiency of 42.1 percent at an installed cost of less than >$1,200 per kW." > >- Jed Texaco and other oil, coal and shale holders and processors should have a field day in the USA in the next decade. George Schultz anounced the direction of the new US energy policy yesterday, and that direction is to meet increased demand by building thousands of new power plants nation wide. Conservation is not a significant element of the policy. Reliance will be priniciply on development of nuclear, coal and petroleum based energy sources. I hope the policy ultimately inlcudes a lot of money for energy research as well, else we may find ourselves in an economic and environmental hole from which we can not readily escape, and to do so we will not only have to spend more for energy imports, we will have to endure the additional shame of having to pay for importing the technology as well. On the bright side, at least we now or soon will HAVE an energy policy. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 1 06:29:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA15180; Tue, 1 May 2001 06:27:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 06:27:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3AEEB8D3.FF2DA8C3@powerup.com.au> Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 23:23:31 +1000 From: David Hancock X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Man gets foot-and-mouth disease References: <000b01c0ce71$90de7be0$63181ad8@oemcomputer> <3AE8D947.D89A48C5@enter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Tg4ar.0.6j3.Ddhxw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42303 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Rosignoli wrote: > > I believe Mad Cow disease results from cows feeding on other animals, > especially other cows. Cows fed on organically grown green grass should > not have this problem. So, it's not necessary to go vegan. (In fact, > there are many problems associated with this.) Just find some meat and > dairy from clean cows. And, yes, they do exist. > >From what I've read, BSE and variant CJD look very much like the same thing (and nothing like foot in mouth). Prions occur naturally in nerve tissue (the brain, the spinal cord) and are normally reabsorbed, like other proteins, without damage. But with the environmental influence of added organophosphates (in cattle, insecticides especially - in humans, the food chain generally) the production of prions increases - although they are usually, again, reabsorbed without damage. *But* - given environmental lack of copper and excess of manganese, the prions can mutate so reabsorption does not occur, and the protein becomes destructive of nerve tissue. And it seems that these mutated prions can influence other *good* prions to likewise mutate, and become equally destructive. Likely vectors in cattle for this process and resultant BSE are manganese added to cattle meal and organophosphate insecticides - both used in intensive production processes. In humans? Variant CJD occurs in Iceland, Slovakia, the US Midwest... in areas unrelated to the European problem, but where manganese surplus and copper deficiency (from soil, water and flora samples) is consistent. David From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 1 12:52:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27678; Tue, 1 May 2001 12:46:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:46:30 -0700 Message-ID: <038901c0d26e$d7724680$f68f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Coal vs Fission: Environmental Assessment for Hoe Creek Underground Coal Gasification T Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 13:44:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0D244.E5BDBC80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"du7oR.0.3m6.LAnxw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42304 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0D244.E5BDBC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Situ Gasification of Coal. http://nepa.eh.doe.gov/ea/ea1219/ea1219.html#P306_7382 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0D244.E5BDBC80 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="EA-1219; Environmental Assessment for Hoe Creek Underground Coal Gasification Test Site Remediation and FONSI.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="EA-1219; Environmental Assessment for Hoe Creek Underground Coal Gasification Test Site Remediation and FONSI.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://nepa.eh.doe.gov/ea/ea1219/ea1219.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://nepa.eh.doe.gov/ea/ea1219/ea1219.html#P306_7382 Modified=20B1E77F6ED2C00138 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0D244.E5BDBC80-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 1 15:38:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA11803; Tue, 1 May 2001 15:36:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:36:40 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010501175817.028ff400@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 18:32:23 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: First impression of Administration energy policy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"RLPaY2.0.Ku2.tfpxw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42305 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Today I read the comments of vice president Cheney, and separately in the Yomiuri a summary of a new energy "white paper" in Japan. The proposals are still at the political "trial balloon" stage, and no doubt will be changed. Yet I feel as if I am living on another planet, or another century. Naturally there is no mention of CF . . . But there is no mention of anything even slightly unusual or visionary. No mention of next-generation nuclear fission, large scale wind or solar thermal with hydrogen transmission. These people have no sense that anything new or different can happen. They are stuck in a time warp circa 1900. They do not even realize that we could make automobiles 2 or 3 times more efficient with circa 1906 hybrid engines -- which Japanese companies are already selling in the U.S! The U.S. could be exporting oil, with no visible change to our lifestyle, except for the extra money every family would keep. I can't believe the vice president is so ill informed he does not realize that American industry uses two or three times as much energy per dollar compared to our competitors in Europe and Japan. This puts us at a tremendous economic disadvantage. My guess is that Cheney is still acting on behalf of his recent employer Halliburton Inc. He proposes to built a new power plant every week for the next 20 years. His slogan is, "efficiency, not austerity." That sounds nice, but the administration and power companies have gutted programs to encourage efficiency. However, I must admit, Texas under Gov. Bush did implement a forward-looking energy policy, better than most states, with plans to construct "400 megawatts of new renewable energy generation by 2003 and 2,000 megawatts by 2009, enough to cover 3 percent of the state's electricity needs." In practice, this proposal means the people of Texas will write a check for a billion dollars to the people in Denmark, but that's better than sending the money to Saddam Hussein. The Administration proposals I have seen so far would do nothing to improve efficiency. It is depressing. The 5 million people in Denmark are now manufacturing the equivalent to a nuclear power plant every two years in wind power, and they are making a big profit doing it. I predict you will not hear a word about this from the Administration. We hand over the market for advanced autos to the Japanese. We surrender the fastest growing energy market in history to the Danes. A few years later bigwigs in Washington will whine and moan about how unfair these foreigners are, selling us advanced technology 'we invented.' The technology was invented here, and paid for by the California taxpayers, but it was our power companies and political leaders who made other countries would reap the profit. The San Francisco Chronicle reported: A Lost Opportunity That Worsened Crisis - Utilities and federal regulators shut the door on renewable power in California Monday, February 12, 2001 "California utilities' long-standing distrust of the renewable energy industry has been a major force discouraging -- and in some case even blocking -- wind, solar and other ventures from expanding enough to ease the grip of the state's current energy crisis. . . ." Wind power pays well for Denmark - Nation at forefront of $4 billion industry Monday, April 23, 2001 "Copenhagen, Denmark -- Arriving in the Danish capital by sea, the first thing travelers see of the country is a row of 20 enormous wind turbines gently spinning above the waves nearly two miles from shore. Completed in December, the Middelgrunden Wind Farm is the world's largest offshore wind power facility. Its wind machines, each with blades 100 feet long, together generate [40 MW] . . . Middelgrunden is a fitting symbol for Denmark. Renewable, nonpolluting wind power has become the world's fastest-growing energy source in recent years, and no country illustrates that growth better than Denmark, which has emerged as the undisputed leader in wind energy. . . ." . . . Mitchell Jones and libertarians may counter by saying the U.S. should not mess with free markets even though the Japanese and Danes are doing it to make a fortune from our ideas. In theory a pure laisser faire system might work better, but I have no faith in theories. I believe in pragmatic here-and-now realism. Do what works, and what has worked in the past for our fathers and grandfathers. In practice the U.S. and British governments have always been on the forefront of technology. They have always encouraged, subsidized, and at times directly built industry. For the last 300 years this made them the richest and most powerful two nations on earth, so I think we should continue even though some economic theories say we shouldn't. Jones believes that if we could only escape to another planet in small numbers, our human nature would change and our propensity toward fascism and tyranny would wither away. Yet when there were only a handful of Europeans in the American wilderness, they brought with them every sin, bad habit, injustice, corruption and excess of European civilization. Big or little, old or new, every community and every nation in history has been mired in politics. Businesses, schools, museums and newspapers and every other institution, public or private, all have a propensity to become corrupt. They are usurped by people who steal the money and destroy the work of others, or by bind fools like Robert Park. That is the kind of species we are, along with our primate cousins. And yet, despite our shortcomings, in the end we often manage to do things right. Look at how much we have accomplished. Look at the tools of daily life from spoons and glasses to computers and satellite dishes. Every humble artifact of ordinary life is a marvel of ingenuity representing a triumph of the human spirit -- a thousand years of distilled effort. I cannot help thinking that if we can build such marvelous things, we will find a way to overcome the political opposition and the mountain of technical challenges, and build cold fusion. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 1 15:39:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA11869; Tue, 1 May 2001 15:36:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:36:45 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010501170515.028f64d8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 18:05:38 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Microturbine efficiency is low In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010430153220.02898d20@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010428131049.02894ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010428131049.02894ec0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010430153220.02898d20@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2qow22.0.Hv2.yfpxw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42306 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >I remember reading an article years ago about the possibility of >transporting electric power over very long distances efficiently as very >high voltage DC (500000V). At the time, the solid state devices that >made this both possible and efficient had only recently been invented. >I now wonder just what became of it, and what the current state of the >art is. Would it make the cheap transport of wind energy from Texas or >Montanna to the south east possible? I have summaries of DoE and EPRI studies up to around 1996. They generally agree that transmitting electricity this far is impractical, and they recommend sending hydrogen instead, via natural gas pipelines, as I have mentioned before. One advantage to this is you can store the gas and use it when it is needed. The wind blows erratically day and night, whereas most electricity is needed in the afternoon. High voltage transmission might be more appropriate for concentrated, constant output, high power sources such as dams and nuclear power plants. Wind electricity in Texas is needed locally. From Montana it would be best to send it to population centers to the west, at first. After many years of profitable operation and intense construction, I suppose they might build enough wind farms to supply the whole nation. I hope it never comes to that, and CF succeeds instead, but it would be better than Cheney's proposal to build a new giant power plant every week for the next 20 years (~1000 plants). - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 1 18:52:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13302; Tue, 1 May 2001 18:48:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 18:48:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3AEF67C2.5A6D2D10@gorge.net> Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 18:49:54 -0700 From: tom@gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Microturbine efficiency is low--DC intertie Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vTf_s.0.ZF3.0Usxw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42307 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > I now wonder just what became of it, and what the current state of > the > art is. Here is a brochure on it. They use antique mercury arc, and thyristors. http://www.bpa.gov/corporate/kcc/celilo/celilox.shtml I didn't see anything about losses, but you could email BPA. (Incidentally, the "Celilo" convertor is actually at The Dalles, not Celilo. It is named for the falls, which was "drowned" by The Dalles Dam.) Tom Miller From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 1 19:30:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16954; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 19:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000f01c0d2ad$136c1740$683dee3f@default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: References: Subject: Re: Apology...Missed beginning of: Sam Faile's LED research files Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 22:10:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"u7pKm3.0.n84.vrsxw"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42308 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John; No, Sam is not on-line. He doesn't have a computer. (his income goes into LEDs, parts, and an ever growing mountain of lab books, wherein his experiments are chronicled.) I periodically act as a conduit to get new information on-line for him. Sam and I have worked on a number of projects over the past 7 or 8 years. I would suggest following the archive thread back through my postings to get a full flavor. Essentially, Sam (and a few other far flung engineers and techies as well!) believes that the new breed of quantum well Gallium Nitride LED (usually green through UV in color) is prone to some properties that hint at a coherence / absorption of vacuum energy into the device and operating circuit. He has seen what appears to be (operative word APPEARS) an operating lifetime of parallel LED circuits that exceeds the normal mA-Hour rating of alkaline dry cell batteries. In other words, some means of a subtle re-charging or re-introduction of energy back into the circuit. Not traditional O-U at all, but maybe hints of a micro-form of ZPE harvesting. NR > > > Dear Folks, > > I missed the begging of this experiment. > > What was-is Sam testing? > > Is Sam on line these days ? Hi Sam!!! > > > John > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 1 22:24:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA17956; Tue, 1 May 2001 22:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 22:22:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: First impression of Administration energy policy Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:21:08 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010501175817.028ff400@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010501175817.028ff400@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id WAA17920 Resent-Message-ID: <"Wwto22.0.UO4.Acvxw"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42309 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 01 May 2001 18:32:23 -0400: [snip] >happen. They are stuck in a time warp circa 1900. They do not even realize >that we could make automobiles 2 or 3 times more efficient with circa 1906 >hybrid engines -- which Japanese companies are already selling in the U.S! >The U.S. could be exporting oil, with no visible change to our lifestyle, >except for the extra money every family would keep. But Jed, you just hit the nail on the head. How can the wealthy get even wealthier, if the people keep their money? [snip] >Monday, February 12, 2001 > >"California utilities' long-standing distrust of the renewable energy >industry has been a major force discouraging -- and in some case even >blocking -- wind, solar and other ventures from expanding enough to ease >the grip of the state's current energy crisis. . . ." [snip] Jed, you are a business man, why don't you buy some Danish wind turbines, set them up, and sell the power to California? It could be in operation in about a year, far faster than any other type of power plant, thus no one could beat you to it (barring the hoped for miracle). with the current rates for power, you would soon make a fortune. (Even if you don't actually do it, preparing the business plan could prove enlightening). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 1 22:35:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA25955; Tue, 1 May 2001 22:35:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 22:35:22 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Microturbine efficiency is low--DC intertie Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:34:47 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <537vetsum1k82mf76905mgo8qnoinme9sl@4ax.com> References: <3AEF67C2.5A6D2D10@gorge.net> In-Reply-To: <3AEF67C2.5A6D2D10@gorge.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA25894 Resent-Message-ID: <"_VnFL2.0.PL6.Qovxw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42310 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Tom Miller's message of Tue, 01 May 2001 18:49:54 -0700: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> I now wonder just what became of it, and what the current state of >> the >> art is. > >Here is a brochure on it. They use antique mercury arc, and thyristors. > >http://www.bpa.gov/corporate/kcc/celilo/celilox.shtml Thanks Tom. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 00:05:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA09624; Wed, 2 May 2001 00:03:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 00:03:11 -0700 Message-ID: <01C0D29B.5924ED50.dequickert@ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: First impression of Administration energy policy Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 00:03:35 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Sp2HW1.0.IM2.l4xxw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42311 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That's it! Why didn't we see it before? Now it's clear -- the California 'crisis' was part of a vast conspiracy to make alternative energy sources like solar and wind more cost-competitive; and Resident Bush's selection was part of the plot, because his posturing will wake the sluggish environmentalists from their Clinton-induced stupor into renewed action. Some of the most potent environmental advocacy occurred in this manner during the Reagan years. So the Republican party really is conservative, they're just tricky about it! Dan Quickert On Tuesday, May 01, 2001 10:21 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 01 May 2001 18:32:23 -0400: [snip] > Jed, you are a business man, why don't you buy some Danish wind > turbines, set them up, and sell the power to California? > It could be in operation in about a year, far faster than any other type > of power plant, thus no one could beat you to it (barring the hoped for > miracle). > with the current rates for power, you would soon make a fortune. > (Even if you don't actually do it, preparing the business plan could > prove enlightening). > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 05:05:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA04090; Wed, 2 May 2001 05:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 05:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200105021204.IAA03925@mercury.mv.net> Subject: THE SEARCH FOR FREE ENERGY reviewed Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 06:57:50 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed@pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id FAA04067 Resent-Message-ID: <"hRean3.0.o_.-U_xw"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42312 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All: A positive review in New Scientist of a book that treats all free energy and which has two chapters devoted to a highly positive treatment of cold fusion. BlackLight Power is covered too. By the way, the MIT PFC anti-cold fusion fudged data story and the infamous shifted curve is in there for all to see. Dr. Eugene F. Mallove Infinite Energy Magazine www.infinite-energy.com *** NEW SCIENTIST REVIEW - 28/4/2001 'Everything Has a Price' 'The Search for Free Energy: A Scientific Tale of Jealousy, Genius and Electricity' by Keith Tutt with a foreword by Sir Arthur C. Clarke, Simon and Schuster, Ģ18.99, ISBN 0684866609 The Croatian-American inventor Nikola Tesla was seriously weird. He soothed his head with x-rays, attempted communication with Mars and proposed broadcasting power by wireless. But however strange his approach, Telsa was also the originator of the rotating magnetic field that led to the alternating current (AC) electric motor and three-phase AC - key technologies that shaped traditional electricity systems throughout the 20th century. Compared to Tesla, most of the dramatic personae in Keith Tutt's account of The Search for Free Energy seem reassuringly normal. But to those who accept the conventions of modern physics their ideas are at least as weird as Telsa's. Anyone even moderately acquainted with the first and second laws of thermodynamics or classical quantum theory is likely to back away hastily when offered devices that purport to yield more energy than they need to operate. But the inventors of the Radiant Energy Device, the N-machine, the Thesta-Distatica, cold fusion and its variants, hydrinos, and zero-point energy could hardly ask for a better intercessor than Tutt. His vivid, level-headed and engrossing commentary is as entertaining as it is thought-provoking. Liberalisation and technical innovation are already raising fundamental questions about the future of electricity. If the search that Tutt chronicles should happen to bear fruit, the future will be stranger still. ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 08:38:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA20799; Wed, 2 May 2001 08:35:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:35:52 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502100935.00a89338@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:35:04 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: First impression of Administration energy policy In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010501175817.028ff400@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010501175817.028ff400@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"eZmr31.0.i45.Nb2yw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42314 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >The U.S. could be exporting oil, with no visible change to our lifestyle, > >except for the extra money every family would keep. > >But Jed, you just hit the nail on the head. How can the wealthy get even >wealthier, if the people keep their money? This is a major problem with all innovation. IBM and HP built microcomputer prototypes in the 1970s, and IBM showed one at trade shows (where I saw it), but they did not sell them because the profit margins were small compared to mainframes. Fortunately, aggressive start-up companies were free to sell microcomputers. IBM could not have stopped Apple in 1979, even if it had tried. Today, the coal and natural gas industry are fighting behind the scenes to clobber wind power, with unfair legislative initiatives, illegal business tactics and planted newspaper stories. There were hearings in Congress revealing their dirty tricks. (That goes to show Congress and the government sometimes act on behalf of the underdog.) Anyway, this is the best proof that wind power is a serious, potentially large scale source of energy. Sometimes giant corporations market innovations that save consumers a ton of money. GE sells compact fluorescent light bulbs in grocery stores, even though this cannibalizes their own business in incandescent lights. Toyota sells hybrid automobiles. There is no way Ford or GM can stop Toyota. Mitsubishi is working seriously on CF despite major opposition within the company. It is conceivable they will make a breakthrough someday and start marketing CF. I am sure they would do it, even though it would disrupt the economic system and hurt some of their customers. The profit would be irresistible. >Jed, you are a business man, why don't you buy some Danish wind >turbines, set them up, and sell the power to California? I could accomplish the same thing by investing in Enron and the Danish companies. I would do it, if I did not have a feeling that CF may emerge someday and bankrupt them overnight. Actually, there is a tremendous boom in wind power in California and Washington. 760 MW are under construction, compared to 6,723 MW of conventional generation. That may not seem so great, but consider: 1. if California could have that 670 MW now -- this instant -- the crisis would vanish. 2. That's 10% of new construction, which is the highest percentage of alternative energy new construction in history. The people building these wind farms are not Friends of the Earth. They are flinty-eyed big businessmen. Enron, a major presence in wind power, is a gigantic energy corporation. It is a big player in natural gas, and was reportedly the single largest contributor to the Bush campaign. U.S. investment in wind is now $1.5 to 2.0 billion per year. That's Big Business, and Enron has a major share of it. They are not going to throw away that kind of money because their competitors in the coal industry play a few dirty tricks. If CF emerges, I expect Enron and its friends in the White House will work vigorously to crush it, just as the coal interests are trying to derail Enron's investment in wind power. But I do not see how they can succeed. CF is too small, too easy for others to build. Enron and Exxon will pay no attention to it until it becomes viable, and from that moment on it will be unstoppable. The influence and power of large corporations are overrated. In Denmark and Germany many new, small wind installations are owned by small consortiums, typically groups of farmers who own the land the windmills are built on. However, the next generation large scale European wind farms will be built in the shallow North Sea, where there is more wind, plenty of room, and the equipment last longer. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 08:43:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02158; Wed, 2 May 2001 08:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002901c0d336$81e5f540$f679ccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010501175817.028ff400@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: First impression of Administration energy policy Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:33:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"m3fDa1.0.bX.FZ2yw"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42313 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, as usual, has thoughtful things to say about energy and politics. I have a few comments. Cheney is correct that the US (and the world) needs more energy, not less. He is also correct that if the coming shortfall is to be met, it has to be with established, well-engineered and economically standardized systems. I regret as much as others that the fuel source will be coal, gas, oil and fission. I won't repeat old arguments about these, it has all been well said. Jed has well documented the failure of Japan's $35 million run at a CF technology. It seems to me that the key blunder was Patterson's refusal of a $15 million buyout by Motorola -- there is a deep-pockets company with the necessary smarts, who had themselves seen convincing proof of CF energy. It is very doubtful that massive investment by the US would have brought us to a point in this year where commercial deployment of CF systems would meet the energy shortfall. May I remind our readers that while the CF phenomenon is well established, we have no real clue as to what the consumables in a production system will be, and what the operating cost will be. Comparisons to the Manhattan Project don't quite fly, for there was a better theoretical base at the time than there is now for CF. BLP is the current best hope, yet Mills has not yet shown how to scale up and extract useful energy from the very energetic plasmas he is seeing in his reactors. As for the Danes and wind power, the country is small and the wind proximate. It is interesting that they build wind farms off-shore, but then land is scarce. There are strong demographic reasons for the Danes to concentrate on wind power. Demographics go against it in the US. Here we look for energy solutions to a vast and diverse population. the Danish wind farms don't serve Europe, they serve a small country that must otherwise import fuel and energy. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 09:37:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14978; Wed, 2 May 2001 09:32:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:32:59 -0700 From: Steve Krivit To: VORTEX Subject: RE: THE SEARCH FOR FREE ENERGY reviewed Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:28:00 -0700 X-Mailer: MailBeamer v3.24 (Win98) Message-ID: <231413754.1336447423.4294687751@Butthead.linkline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA14890 Resent-Message-ID: <"kOWzo1.0.vf3.wQ3yw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42315 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >'The Search for Free Energy: A Scientific Tale of Jealousy, Genius and >Electricity' by Keith Tutt with a foreword >by Sir Arthur C. Clarke, Simon and Schuster, Ģ18.99, ISBN 0684866609 Gene: barnes&noble.com doesn't seem to have it yet...do you know where I can get one? Thanks, Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 10:25:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01209; Wed, 2 May 2001 10:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 10:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502114852.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:08:59 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Wind farm construction video Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"DUj3K2.0.pI.G24yw"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42316 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a small video on-line, showing the construction of a 75 MW wind farm in Texas: http://www.fplenergy.com/aboutfpl/wind-9.htm This is a massive industrial project involving road construction, thousands of sticks of dynamite, an on-site mini-plant to mix the concrete, and so on. There would be significant environmental damage from a nation-wide program to build installations like this, although it would be minor compared to the damage from coal or uranium mines. This project will supply enough electricity for 20,000 houses. That's a lot, but you have to wonder if such a massive project is cost-effective. It was prompted by a tax break, as noted in the video. Conventional energy sources such as oil also enjoy massive tax breaks and major government R&D support. You get a sense how vulnerable the energy industry is to something like CF. This construction requires huge teams of hundreds of skilled workers, and massive equipment, and enough concrete in the tower bases alone to build approximately 530 swimming pools, or one swimming pool for every 40 houses served by the wind farm. I do not know the total value of installed equipment at power and oil companies. I doubt anyone could find determine that easily. But it seems likely that together they have ~$30,000 worth of equipment for every person in the U.S., or ~$8 trillion total. * Imagine the trauma a major stockholder would feel after reading newspaper article about a CF generator. He would be the proud owner of a mountain of equipment which has instantly dropped in long-term value from $100 billion to zero. An ordinary person could not bring himself to believe it. - Jed * Basis for this estimate: In 1997, the U.S. total energy expenditures were $567 billion, or $2,119 per person. I assume capital equipment produces at least 5% return on investment and no more than 10%, so the energy corporations have between $21,000 and $42,000 of equipment per person. See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/pdf/multi.fuel/aer1999/sec1.pdf From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 11:16:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08619; Wed, 2 May 2001 11:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010426174338.02814530@pop.mindspring.com> References: Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:59:50 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Resent-Message-ID: <"mr-Ax2.0.a62.zj4yw"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42317 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{I just now noticed this message. The reason: the only time I read Jed's stuff is when he posts to a thread I have already been following. In this case, Jed re-named the thread, so I didn't notice that this was a reply to my earlier comments. (I have renamed it again, by the way.) --MJ}*** >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> > ***{Energy is dangerous stuff. Result: all forms of power generation are >> > "inherently dangerous." Thus relative safety is the only criterion by >>which >> > alternative systems of power generation can be compared, and, on that >> > basis, fission is *by far* the safest of them all. The reason: it is the >> > most concentrated power source now known. That means there is far more >> > energy concentrated in a pound of uranium than in a pound of coal, or oil, >> > or gasoline, etc. > >The uranium comes from ore, which is not as concentrated as oil or coal. ***{Incorrect. A kilogram of uranite (UO2) contains about 880 g of uranium, which in turn contains 6.34 g of U-235. That is 6.34/235 = .027 moles, or 1.62x10^22 atoms which are available for fission. The total energy release per fission for U-235 is about 200 MeV, so that gives us 3.25x10^24 MeV/kg of Uranite, which is 2.24x10^8 BTU's/lb. Heats of combustion for the best grades of coal, by way of contrast, are about 14.6 BTU's/lb. The implication: you would need to extract 15,337,778 lbs of the very best coal, to produce the amount of energy contained in a pound of uranite. Worse: this assumes that breeder technology is not used, and hence that the U-238 is not converted into plutonium, and employed as fuel in its own right. That means even the lowest grade uranium ore that is used in commerce has a mind-bogglingly higher energy content per pound than the highest grade coal that is used. And, since the mechanics of mining do not vary much regardless of whether uranium or coal is being extracted, that in turn means vastly, mind-bogglingly fewer workers need to be involved in the extraction process if our energy needs are met by nuclear fission, than if they are met by coal, or oil, or natural gas, or any other source. And that, in turn, means vastly fewer people are exposed to accidents during the extraction process, and hence that the extraction of a BTU of nuclear energy is vastly safer than the extraction of a BTU of any other type of energy. Moreover, the superior safety of nuclear power does not stop with extraction. The key point, as previously noted, is that nuclear energy is vastly more concentrated. As a result, fewer workers are exposed to accidents not merely during its extraction, but also during its refining, shipping, use, and distribution, than is the case for any alternative source of energy that is presently known, bar none. Nothing else is even close. --Mitchell Jones}*** >After processing it is more concentrated, of course. > >Energy concentration sometimes plays a role in economics ***{Under democratic fascism, the larger industries that employ more workers, managers, lawyers, and lobbyists have more political clout. Result: the insiders who represent their "interests" before legislatures and regulatory bodies generally get their way in conflicts with representatives of competing technologies that employ fewer workers, managers, lawyers, and lobbyists. This means those representing the interests of the fossil fuel industry have been successful in saddling nuclear power with a mind-boggling array of idiotic "safety" regulations, precisely *because* nuclear power is vastly safer--i.e., because it exposes vastly fewer workers to accidents. And, of course, the presence of those regulations has had the effect--the *intended* effect--of vastly increasing the costs of nuclear power, to the point where those other industries have been rendered "competitive" with it. In a free market for energy, however, nuclear power would be *orders of magnitude* less expensive than any conventional alternative, precisely due to the concentrated nature of nuclear power. --MJ}*** , but it has >nothing to do with safety. The energy concentration in wind is far lower >than gas or oil, but wind is cheaper than oil, gas or fission, and safer >than any other source of energy. ***{To meet the power needs of the U.S. with windmills, mind-boggling numbers would have to be manufactured, transported to appropriate sites, erected, and maintained. That would require exposing vastly greater numbers of workers to accidents, and would be mind-bogglingly less safe than producing the same amount of energy by nuclear means. Windmills aren't even within taillight distance of nuclear, in terms of safety, and they are comparable in costs only because nuclear power is choked in a suffocating blanket of ridiculous regulations. --MJ}*** >> Result: to generate a megawatt of electricity, far fewer >> > persons are exposed to accidents in extraction, transportation, refining, >> > consumption, and disposal of waste, for nuclear, than for any other power >> > source. > >There is no transport or waste involved in wind or hydroelectricity, except >for the equipment itself ***{The materials have to be mined, transported, refined, and fabricated into windmills. Then the windmills have to be transported to the site of use, erected, and maintained throughout their 20 year design lifetimes, after which the entire process starts all over again. Somebody has to do that, and the gigantic work force which is required is going to be subject to the typical accident rates per man-hour that are associated with industrial enterprises. Since the work force in question will be vastly larger than the work force needed to generate the same amount of electricity in nuclear power plants, the associated increase in accidents will be very large. Specifically, to generate the average U.S. daily electricity output of 766,000 MW using the most efficient wind technology currently available would require the installation of 464,242 of the 1.65 MW Vestas V66 wind turbines. The V66, however, is a gigantic, Rube Goldberg type of machine: to support its three 33 m (108 ft) blades, each V66 requires a massive welded steel tower with a height of 60 to 100 m (197 to 328 feet) and a weight in excess of 80 metric tons, which must be mounted on reinforced concrete piers drilled into bedrock. [See http://www.awea.org/directory/vestas.html , and http://www.eolienne.org/tour/manu/towerm.htm .] Alternatively, the same result could be accomplished by the construction of a mere 348 nuclear power plants of 2200 MW capacity (e.g., like the Diablo Canyon plant). The tradeoff, then, is to do the mining, transport, refining, fabrication, manufacturing, shipment, installation, and maintenance associated with 464,242 Rube Goldberg machines weighing 80 metric tons apiece--i.e., more than 7 times the mass of the Great Pyramid--every 20 years, and accept the accidental deaths and dismemberments associated with the vast workforce that will require (not to mention the fact that the power goes off when the wind dies down :-), or else to get the electricity from 348 nuclear power plants. With all due respect to Rube Goldberg, I'll go with the nuclear power plants. --Mitchell Jones}*** , which now lasts 30 to 100 years. ***{A gross exaggeration. The design lifetimes of most of these gadgets are about 20 years. (See http://www.eolienne.org/tour/econ/oandm.htm, for example.) --MJ}*** After animal >power, these are the oldest and cheapest ways to generate energy. > > > > It is >> > >better than coal, but still not good enough. Every expert in fission I >> have >> > >ever heard from would agree with Ed. >> > >> > ***{Then you must not get out much. For an alternative opinion, ask Dr. >> > Edward Teller what he has to say on the subject, or Dr. Bernard Cohen, >>or a >> > multitude of others. > >After reading Teller's book "Our Nuclear Future" (Criterian, 1958), I do >not have much respect for his opinions about energy or safety. ***{Nor I about yours. --MJ}*** >> > Quote of the month: >> > >> > "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only >> > exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse >>from >> > the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes >>for the >> > candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the >> > result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always >> > followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville > >de Tocqueville was not thinking straight. The French aristocracy robbed the >public treasury more often and more thoroughly than the public has in a >democratic nation. The problem he describes happens with every form of >government. So far, it has happened less often under democracy than in >previous forms of government. ***{Incorrect. It happens far more in democracies than in constitutionally limited republics such as the U.S. was back when its constitution was still in force. The fact of the matter is that a government with the power to violate property rights in what it deems to be "the public interest" is a menace to everyone, and should not be tolerated. Whenever such governments exist, whether they are nominally democratic or overtly autocratic, the "public" whose interests are served is *always* going to be a tiny, politically-connected elite, and those not in that elite are going to be victims, not beneficiaries, regardless of any delusions they may have to the contrary. --MJ}*** >- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 11:42:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25940; Wed, 2 May 2001 11:26:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:26:43 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502131822.00a89338@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 14:23:16 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: First impression of Administration energy policy In-Reply-To: <002901c0d336$81e5f540$f679ccd1@asus> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010501175817.028ff400@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"hzPol.0.4L6.Y55yw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42318 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >Cheney is correct that the US (and the world) needs more energy, not less. I cannot imagine why the U.S. needs more energy, when we already use twice as much as our competitors per dollar of GDP output. This is like saying I need twice as much food as you do because my hobby is throwing steaks into the Chattahoochee river. We have a choice between buying more energy, or buying Japanese air conditioner, automotive and factory technology which uses three times less energy than ours. It would be cheaper to invest in their technology. >It is very doubtful that massive investment by the US would have brought us >to a point in this year where commercial deployment of CF systems would meet >the energy shortfall. How big is "massive"? A billion dollars? That is how much the people in California pay in tax money every 20 days for cost overruns in their ongoing crisis. Note: that is for emergency funding alone, not their total energy bill. The U.S. as a whole spends $1.6 billion per day on energy. If the CF physics problem can be solved at all, surely it can be solved for this amount of money! The actual cost of CF generating equipment for entire country would be negligible. We have to replace all automobiles, heating and air conditioning equipment every 8 to 15 years anyway. There is no reason to think the CF powered versions would be substantially more expensive than conventional ones. CF does not require rare or expensive materials or high precision manufacturing. Fifteen years after the introduction of CF-powered equipment the total energy bill would be zero, and every person in the U.S. would pocket $2,000 per year savings for the fuel along, never mind medical expenses. (In Atlanta, 900 people per year die prematurely from air pollution, according to today's newspaper.) > May I remind our readers that while the CF phenomenon >is well established, we have no real clue as to what the consumables in a >production system will be, and what the operating cost will be. We can make a rough estimate of both. Even if CF consumed gold or uranium the cost would be so close to zero it would not be worth measuring. If it consumes nickel the resulting "waste" will be more valuable than the raw material. > Comparisons >to the Manhattan Project don't quite fly, for there was a better theoretical >base at the time than there is now for CF. There was no theoretical basis for fission in 1920, or even 1930. The theoretical base can probably be constructed for much less than we spend on energy every morning before breakfast. People have figured out incredibly difficult physics problems before, we can do it again. >As for the Danes and wind power, the country is small and the wind >proximate. It is interesting that they build wind farms off-shore, but then >land is scarce. That is not the reason they are going off-shore. It is because there is more wind yet less wear and tear, so the equipment will probably last about 10 years longer. > There are strong demographic reasons for the Danes to >concentrate on wind power. Demographics go against it in the US. On the East Coast, yes, but not in Texas or California. >the Danish wind >farms don't serve Europe, they serve a small country that must otherwise >import fuel and energy. That's incorrect. The Danes export most of their equipment, mainly to Germany, which now gets 2.5% of its energy from wind. Spain is also building at a rapid rate, and beginning to export wind energy to other EU nations. Wind energy new construction per year was ~3,500 MW in 2000, which is a more than Denmark can use. Half of all new construction is in Germany. The annual increase of ~3,500 for the past few years about equal to nuclear power construction in 1968. This year, more than 5,000 MW will be installed worldwide, which is almost as much as the entire California crash fossil fuel construction projects now underway. In 1968, many people seriously thought that nuclear could replace all power generation worldwide. The potential capacity of wind, from sites not protected in national parks or otherwise off limits, is thousands of times more than all electric energy worldwide. At the rate it is growing it will replace all other electric generation in 50 to 100 years. EU manufacturers and governments plan to have 60,000 MW installed wind capacity by 2010. That is enough electricity to run all of California. The total fuel cost is zero, pollution zero, equipment lifetime 30 to 50 years. There is one other common misconception about wind. It is surprisingly concentrated. The most concentrated source of energy is hydroelectricity, but wind is pretty close. Coal, oil and nuclear look concentrated when you see the power plants, but you have to take into account the space taken up by strip mines, refineries, pipelines, and railroad transportation of the fuel. Wind does take land for power lines, especially if it goes from Montana to New York, but it is not much worse than nuclear fission or hot fusion in that regard. Nuclear energy is only economical on a giant scale, so a nuclear power plant must have a gigantic distribution network, running to millions of people. Compare that to most new construction natural gas electricity in Japan. The LNG gas comes in on a ship, goes a few miles to an automobile factory, and the factory generates its own power, using the waste heat for other purposes. (The "excess cold" from the LNG is also tapped, for air conditioning.) Decentralized, privately owned power is the fastest growing sector in Japan, contrary to assertions made by Mitchell Jones. CF would take no space at all, since the power density is already high enough to fit it into the space taken up by conventional heat engines and electric engines. Toasters and automobiles with built-in CF power supplies would be no bigger than today's models. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 13:03:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24896; Wed, 2 May 2001 13:01:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:01:03 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502150245.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 16:01:02 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"NzfTq1.0.m46.-T6yw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42319 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I was mistaken. Wind capacity is not thousands of times worldwide power generation. It is probably only hundreds of times, and perhaps ten times when you take into account the economics of transmitting energy to population centers. Still, there are vast amounts of untapped energy out there. Most of U.S. capacity for wind power is in the middle of the continent, on the great plains, on one-third of the land. It is mainly in 12 states, which have a total population of 44 million people, or 16% of the U.S. total. Here is a table from http://www.awea.org which seems to agree with other, older sources such as a 1990 Sci. Am. estimate. STATE, Potential in MW, Installed capacity 1998, End of 1999 COLORADO 183,000 5 22 IOWA 210,000 3 242 KANSAS 407,000 0 2 MINNESOTA 250,000 135 272 MONTANA 388,000 0 0 NEBRASKA 330,000 2 3 NEW MEXICO 166,000 0 1 NORTH DAKOTA 460,000 1 1 OKLAHOMA 276,000 0 0 SOUTH DAKOTA 392,000 0 0 TEXAS 453,000 42 188 WYOMING 284,000 1 72 TOTAL 3,799,000 189 803 Large states like Texas and California have on the order of 60,000 MW total generating capacity. I am not sure of the U.S. total. Anyway, 3,799,000 MW is a lot. Here is one other factoid about wind power, to counter some of the anti-wind propaganda that has been circulating. It takes energy to build a wind farm, including fuel for the construction equipment and the energy content of the steel and other materials. Most wind farm produces enough energy to pay this 'energy debt' back in 4 to 7 months. (Some opponents claim it takes years.) A coal plant pays back in less than one month. The AWEA says that photovoltaic array takes about 62 months (5 years) to pay back, which is ridiculous, because the arrays only last 10 to 15 years, and after 10 years performance is seriously degraded. PV industry papers say the "payback time" is 2 or 3 years for thin films, 3 to 6 years for some other types. The performance is dismal at best. The debate about the energy content of PV arrays has been going on for years. Different people say different things, but it seems clear that the payback time is uneconomical for many applications. See: http://www.siemenssolar.com/Paybackstudy.pdf Nuclear power plants are said to pay back very rapidly, but there are unanswered questions about fuel preparation and disposal processing which might make the economics much less attractive. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 13:28:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA30904; Wed, 2 May 2001 13:24:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:24:07 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 16:31:07 -0400 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502150245.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"T3u941.0.oY7.cp6yw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42320 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > I was mistaken. Wind capacity is not thousands of times worldwide power > generation. It is probably only hundreds of times, and perhaps ten times > when you take into account the economics of transmitting energy to > population centers. Still, there are vast amounts of untapped energy out there. TINSTAAFL! (there is no such thing as a free lunch) Aren't you afraid that installing too many windmills will affect the weather? After all, windpower is just another method of tapping sunlight, eh? Or is part of it from the inertia of the Earth's rotation? Will windpower make days longer? I think we need an environmental impact study before proceeding too far with this! Terry (tongue firmly engaging cheek) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 13:49:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05489; Wed, 2 May 2001 13:43:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:43:43 -0700 Message-ID: <01C0D30D.F925BF10.dequickert@ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:44:08 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DBh7B3.0.eL1.-57yw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42321 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday, May 02, 2001 11:00 AM, Mitchell Jones wrote: > Moreover, the superior safety of nuclear power does not stop with > extraction. The key point, as previously noted, is that nuclear energy is > vastly more concentrated. As a result, fewer workers are exposed to > accidents not merely during its extraction, but also during its refining, > shipping, use, and distribution, than is the case for any alternative > source of energy that is presently known, bar none. Perhaps. *If* you ignore radiation safety measures, security, decommissioning, decontamination, waste processing, storage or remediation, etc etc. However the effects of an accident, should it occur, are far more serious and insidious than is the case for any alternative source of energy that is presently known, bar none. > Nothing else is even close. That's for sure. > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers Dan Quickert __________________________________ Useful attachment to Quote of the month: Being accurate doesn't do a hell of a lot of good if you're only measuring the weight on your side of the fulcrum. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 15:28:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA13064; Wed, 2 May 2001 15:26:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:26:42 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502174022.02900de8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 18:26:42 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010426174338.02814530@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"wjY5_.0.uB3.Xc8yw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42322 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{Incorrect. A kilogram of uranite (UO2) contains about 880 g of uranium, >which in turn contains 6.34 g of U-235. That is 6.34/235 = .027 moles, or >1.62x10^22 atoms which are available for fission. The total energy release >per fission for U-235 is about 200 MeV, so that gives us 3.25x10^24 MeV/kg >of Uranite, which is 2.24x10^8 BTU's/lb. Heats of combustion for the best >grades of coal, by way of contrast, are about 14.6 BTU's/lb. The >implication: you would need to extract 15,337,778 lbs of the very best >coal, to produce the amount of energy contained in a pound of uranite. That's wrong, according to the ANS and every other source I know of. I have a sample fake uranium fuel pellet from the ANS. The package says it has as much energy as 3 barrels of oil (126 gallons) or 1 ton of coal (2,000 lbs.). I cannot find the precise mass of the fuel pellet, but my ruler shows the size is 1.5 cm x 0.8 cm, which comes to 0.75 cm^3. U fuel weighs 10.2 grams per cubic cm, so that's 7.7 grams, or 0.017 lbs. In other words, the ratio is 1:117,647. >That means even the lowest grade uranium ore that is used in commerce has a >mind-bogglingly higher energy content per pound than the highest grade coal >that is used. The ore is not pure when it comes out of the ground, whereas the coal is. The ore must be concentrated, purified and processed, which takes a great deal of energy. By the time you are finished, I believe the ratio is around 1:1,000 but that still does not cover the dollar and energy expense of disposing of the spent fuel. Recycling is an entirely different matter. > And, since the mechanics of mining do not vary much >regardless of whether uranium or coal is being extracted . . . Actually, they do. Uranium is poisonous, so mining has to be done more carefully, at much greater expense. >, that in turn >means vastly, mind-bogglingly fewer workers need to be involved in the >extraction process . . . Fewer workers are needed to mine the ore, but more are needed to process it and prepare and test the pellets. In any case, labor is only a small fraction of the cost of any energy system. >***{To meet the power needs of the U.S. with windmills, mind-boggling >numbers would have to be manufactured, transported to appropriate sites, >erected, and maintained. The numbers are not mind boggling at all. Recomputing the numbers below . . . Late model turbines produce 1.0 to 2.5 MW per turbine, so we would need about 30,000 in large states like Texas and California. Say 750,000 to 1,000,000 nationwide. The mass of material and construction cost would be less than the materials used by the U.S. fleet 4.1 million commercial trucks. The machines last longer than a truck or railroad engine; projected lifetimes are now 30 years. This mass of towers and turbines would eliminate the need for oil well heads and pumps, ocean well drill platforms, strip mines and other fossil fuel infrastructure, which also takes up a lot of space, materials, and energy. > That would require exposing vastly greater numbers >of workers to accidents . . . Incorrect. The accident rate for large scale wind installations is lower than in the fossil fuel extraction and energy generation business, by all measurements, including accidents per MWH. Industry safety is a big issue these days, and topics like this are carefully researched. Almost all serious accidents occur during the construction and maintenance of wind towers; the accident rate during operation is zero, because the towers are fully automatic, and unattended. Wind is particularly well suited to automatic operation. Even hydro installations require more maintenance. Roughly the same number of accidents occur during the construction and maintenance phase of fossil fuel and nuclear plants and mines as wind towers, but many more accidents occur during the operation, which is not fully automatic. Small scale wind installations managed by farmers and homeowners are a lot more dangerous. > >> Result: to generate a megawatt of electricity, far fewer > >> > persons are exposed to accidents in extraction, transportation, > refining, > >> > consumption, and disposal of waste, for nuclear, than for any other > power > >> > source. This result is imaginary and totally incorrect. It is made without reference to actual industry statistics, studies, or other materials available for free on web. It reminds me of the anti-CF factions who endlessly spin numbers and facts out of thin air, without reading anything or knowing anything about the subject at hand. >Specifically, to generate the average U.S. daily electricity output of >766,000 MW using the most efficient wind technology currently available >would require the installation of 464,242 of the 1.65 MW Vestas V66 wind >turbines. The V66, however, is a gigantic, Rube Goldberg type of machine: >to support its three 33 m (108 ft) blades, each V66 requires a massive >welded steel tower with a height of 60 to 100 m (197 to 328 feet) and a >weight in excess of 80 metric tons . . . So what? How much do the 4 million trucks weigh? How long would these machines last, and how complicated are they compared to conventional aeroderivative gas fired turbines? Talk about a Rube Goldberg machine! A gas turbine has to operate in much more extreme conditions than a wind turbine. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 15:42:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA18512; Wed, 2 May 2001 15:41:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:41:24 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502182818.028fcd78@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 18:41:08 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper In-Reply-To: <01C0D30D.F925BF10.dequickert@ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"rze153.0.8X4.Jq8yw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42323 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: >However the effects of an accident, should it occur, are far more serious >and insidious than is the case for any alternative source of energy that is >presently known, bar none. I have said this before, but it is worth repeating. U.S. reactors may be physically safe. Experts disagree about this. (No one disputes they are far safer than the Russian model at Chernobyl.) However, no expert disputes these assertions: 1. Another accident will occur sooner or later. 2. The clean up and repair costs may be 2 to 3 times the construction cost of the plant as it was at TMI. It may be even more. No one can put an upper limit on it, although the insurance companies are trying. The TMI cleanup nearly bankrupted the utility company. A physical meltdown is highly unlikely, but an accident will lead to a financial meltdown for the power company that experiences it, and for all the others who must buy insurance. THIS is what killed the industry, not protests. From a business point of view, it is a terrible risk with no compensating payoff, since other sources of energy are cheaper in the first place and carry no risk of massive destruction. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 17:23:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA25102; Wed, 2 May 2001 17:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01C0D30D.F925BF10.dequickert@ucdavis.edu> Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 19:20:00 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Resent-Message-ID: <"-tVzN2.0.086.FJAyw"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42324 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Wednesday, May 02, 2001 11:00 AM, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> Moreover, the superior safety of nuclear power does not stop with >> extraction. The key point, as previously noted, is that nuclear energy is >> vastly more concentrated. As a result, fewer workers are exposed to >> accidents not merely during its extraction, but also during its refining, >> shipping, use, and distribution, than is the case for any alternative >> source of energy that is presently known, bar none. > >Perhaps. *If* you ignore radiation safety measures ***{As you are probably aware, a nuclear explosion is physically impossible using reactor-grade uranium. Thus any explosion at a nuclear power plant would have to be conventional in nature--e.g., a core meltdown and subsequent steam explosion. If such an explosion breached containment, it would merely result in a dispersal of radionuclides into the air, and any affect on mortality rates would show up 30 or 40 years later, in terms of a slight increase or decrease in the cancer rate, depending on whether the background count in the area were above, or below, the level at which radiation hormesis kicks in. (The term "radiation hormesis" refers to the proven beneficial effects of low-level radiation exposure. It turns out that the human body is adapted to make use of radiation, and thus that there is an optimal background count, for public health purposes.) Since most of the U.S. is below the optimal hormesis level, the likely result, on the average, of radiation releases from nuclear power plants, would be beneficial. [Compare to the danger to the public from petroleum refineries: there are refineries located in densly populated areas that are subject to temperature inversions (a weather pattern which causes pollutants to build up in the air at ground level), where a series of explosions in a refinery tank farm would have the potential not merely to kill plant personnel, but to kill hundreds of thousands or even millions of people in the surrounding area.] Concerning the possibility of a conventional steam explosion within a nuclear power plant and the threat that it would pose to plant personnel, that is precisely where the small work force which is involved in the generation of nuclear power works its magic: with vastly fewer workers exposed, vastly fewer deaths will result, per megawatt of power generated, in nuclear plants as compared to conventional power sources. --Mitchell Jones}*** , security ***{Because nuclear power is a more concentrated energy source, it is much easier to provide security to a nuclear power plant than to, for example, a petroleum refinery. For example, it would be much easier to prevent a band of terrorists from blowing up a nuclear power plant than to stop them from blowing up a petroleum refinery during a temperature inversion--which means: security is another advantage of going nuclear. --MJ}*** , >decommissioning, decontamination, waste processing, storage or remediation , >etc etc. ***{None of which would be a problem in a sane world. In a free society, the power plant operator would decide how to deal with such matters, without any input from government or from innumerate and scientifically illiterate "environmentalists." Since he would be constrained by fear of lawsuits and massive damage awards if he disposed of radioactive materials in an unsafe manner, as well as by fear of cancellation of his insurance, he would have a powerful incentive to seek, and take, the best engineering advice available. Result: we can be quite confident that, in a free society, such decisions would be made sensibly, just as we can be confident that the buildings or bridges would not collapse, that the automobiles would not explode, etc. We don't have to know the details of what might be done, to discount the Chicken Little fantasies that issue forth from the mouths of idiots in our present society. (One simple, straightforward, and obvious solution would be to simply grind the radioactive materials into powder, mix them into concrete, and return them to the worked-out portions of the uranium mines from which they originally came. Another solution would be to mix them at very low concentrations into Sak-Crete and other commercially available concrete mixes, and sell them to people living in areas where the background count is below the hormesis level. In a sane world, the educated consumer would pay a premium to purchase such materials, because of the health benefits associated with using them. --MJ}*** >However the effects of an accident, should it occur, are far more serious >and insidious than is the case for any alternative source of energy that is >presently known, bar none. ***{Incorrect. There is no conceivable accident, in a nuclear power plant designed in accordance with accepted engineering practice, that would even begin to compare to the carnage that would result from a major refinery fire in a populated area, under conditions of temperature inversion. --MJ}*** >> Nothing else is even close. > >That's for sure. ***{A word to the wise: sarcasm has no sting, if it is preceded by weak arguments. :-) --MJ}*** >> --Mitchell Jones}*** >> ________________ >> Quote of the month: >> >> "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you >can >> be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > > >Dan Quickert >__________________________________ >Useful attachment to Quote of the month: >Being accurate doesn't do a hell of a lot of good if you're only measuring >the weight on your side of the fulcrum. ***{See my preceding comment. --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 18:13:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02614; Wed, 2 May 2001 18:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010502211028.007a5e40@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 21:10:28 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: U fuel cost per kg? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"OigpI1.0.ee.Z0Byw"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42325 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Will someone who is more familliar with fission technology please tell me how much the fuel in a standard, present-day power reactor costs? I have found many confusing documents about what it would cost with advanced reactors and breeder reactors, but nothing clear about today's reactors. If I read this stuff correctly, it costs about $65 per kg for raw material, and about $1,100 for processing. The fuel cost for electricity works out to be roughly $0.02 per kWh. That's marginally better than coal or wind. It does not reflect the final cost of storing the used fuel and decommissioning the reactor. A used coal or wind generator can be broken up and recycled with no risk. It has some value as scrap. A used fission reactor will cost a great deal to get rid of. (It is unclear how much.) Of course there are hidden costs with other energy sources. I hope there are none with CF . . . The Japanese program to reprocess fuel would end up costing an unbelievable amount if it were ever implemented. No one there thinks it will be. Both government agencies and corporations are involved in the project. There is plenty of blame to go around. They threw away billions. The NHE CF fiasco was nothing, in comparison. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 19:25:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA00842; Wed, 2 May 2001 19:22:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 19:22:43 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 12:22:07 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502150245.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA00816 Resent-Message-ID: <"SVGdT.0.4D.p3Cyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42326 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Wed, 02 May 2001 16:31:07 -0400: [snip] >Aren't you afraid that installing too many windmills will affect >the weather? Actually, with global warming increasing both the frequency and violence of storms, it might be a good thing if it did. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 19:51:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA12196; Wed, 2 May 2001 19:49:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 19:49:40 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 02:48:53 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3af0c193.80475507@mail.midiowa.net> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502150245.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502150245.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA12161 Resent-Message-ID: <"9bkWo2.0.O-2.3TCyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42327 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 02 May 2001 16:01:02 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Most wind farm produces enough >energy to pay this 'energy debt' back in 4 to 7 months. (Some opponents >claim it takes years.) A coal plant pays back in less than one month That's with the standard wind conversion efficiency of about 30%. There's a new design for a vertical axis wind turbine that has (supposedly) a conversion efficiency exceeding 45% that I'm checking into right now. >Most of U.S. capacity for wind power is in the middle of the continent, Yup. To add another table, here's a info for my state. ***************************** Notable Wind Projects Storm Lake - The world"s largest single wind farm is located in Buena Vista and Cherokee Counties, with 262 wind turbines adding up to 196.5 megawatts of capacity. This project was developed by Enron Wind Corp. and power is sold to Alliant Energy, MidAmerican Energy and Waverly Light and Power. Clear Lake - - Iowa"s other big wind farm is just south of Clear Lake, in Cerro Gordo County. Developed by FPL Energy, the power from this 42 megawatt wind farm is sold to Alliant Energy. Iowa Distributed Wind Generation Project, Algona - - Seven municipal utilities joined together for this three-turbine project near Algona. With the support of the Electric Power Research Institute and the Department of Energy, the municipal utilities are gaining first hand experience at running a wind farm. Spirit Lake Elementary School - - This northern Iowa school district owns one turbine, and would like to install a second. According to the former superintendent of schools, Harold Overmann, the turbine saves the district $25,000 per year, enough to pay for a new computer lab or for a teacher"s salary. Schafer Systems, Inc. - This plastics factory in Adair has owned a single wind turbine since 1995, generating about 65% of their power. The initial investment has an eight to ten year payback, but will produce power for the factory for 25 years, helping them stay competitive and keep jobs in rural Iowa. Wind turbines in Iowa Owner/Operator Location -- Number of turbines -- Capacity (kW) MidAmerican Energy/Zond Development, Alta (Cherokee & BV Counties) 159 119,250 Alliant Utilities/IES, Alta (Cherokee & BV Counties) 101 75,750 Alliant Utilities/IPC - FPL Energy Inc., Clear Lake (Cerro Gordo Co.) 56 42,000 Municipal Utilities Cooperative Project, Algona 3 2,250 Waverly Light and Power, Alta (Cherokee & BV Counties) 2 1,500 Northern Alternative Energy, Sibley 2 1,200 Nevada High School, Nevada 2 450 Sentral School, Fenton 1 700 Akron-Westfield School District, Akron 1 600 Forest City School District, Forest City 1 600 Windway Technologies, Joice 1 300 Spirit Lake School District, Spirit Lake 1 250 Story County Hospital, Nevada 1 250 Schafer Systems, Inc., Adair 1 225 Clay-Central Everly School District, Royal 1 95 Waverly Light & Power, Waverly 1 80 Boondocks Truck Stop, Williams 1 65 KTFC Midwest Bible Radio, Sioux City 1 65 Iowa State Fair Grounds, Des Moines 1 10 Corn Belt Power Cooperative, Fort Dodge 1 4 Private Owners - Dallas Center, Storm Lake, Earlham, Charles City, Melbourne, Britt, Iowa City, Sumner, Earlville, Perry, Dana, Aurora, Rock Valley, Nevada, Cedar Rapids 16 440 Total 354 246,084 Source: Iowa Department of Natural Resources. ***************************** -- Dean -- from Nevada, Iowa (KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 20:16:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA20832; Wed, 2 May 2001 20:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 20:14:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010502215508.00bee6a0@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 22:15:47 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. In-Reply-To: <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502150245.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"4L5yX.0.O55.IqCyw"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42328 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:31 PM 5/2/01 -0400, you wrote: >Aren't you afraid that installing too many windmills will affect >the weather? After all, windpower is just another method of >tapping sunlight, eh? Or is part of it from the inertia of the >Earth's rotation? Will windpower make days longer? I think we >need an environmental impact study before proceeding too far with >this! Hmm You are talking about a part of the world where environmental impact might be in reference to the environments impact on you project. More literally then you may wish to think about. This part of the world does have a pretty regular wind. Unfortunately it is occasionally broken up by irregular winds that are very fast and sometimes contain such thing as hunks of ice the size of grapefruit, bits of trees, window pains from downtown skyscrapers and the occasional pickup truck or mobile home. Anything that you place in the great plains makes a target for severe weather. The more times you put one here the more likely that one of them will get hit. I shutter to think what sort of damage can be done by one of those blades once severed by a flying 74 Chevy. Those of us who have lived here for a while know to tie down anything the ma nature might use as a weapon and hide from the things that you cannot tie down. It becomes a way of life and sometimes a survival skill. There is still not much you can do about transonic tree limbs. but there is no reason to add huge rotor blades to the mix. Do not discount severe weather it happens all the time and its happening right now. http://www.srh.noaa.gov/radar/latest/DS.p19r0/si.kfdr.shtml Ask those folks in Childress how they feel about giant windmills tomorrow morning. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 2 21:03:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA07198; Wed, 2 May 2001 21:01:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 21:01:49 -0700 Message-ID: <01C0D34B.2FE35750.dequickert@ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 21:02:12 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Olaqo.0.Jm1.iWDyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42329 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, you seem to presume that my references to safety and accidents are references to a catastrophic failure of the reactor core or some such. First: however small the likelihood of such an accident, the consequences of such an event are unacceptable. Please refer to any basic statistics textbook: just because the probability of an event is extremely low, doesn't mean that it will _not_ happen in any given instance. In "a sane society" when there are alternatives to unacceptable risks, the risk is not taken. That is why commercial nuclear power would not even exist if the risk were not subsidized by the government, via regulated limits of liability. In your vaulted "free society" without regulation, no sane private venture would own a nuclear plant because they would not assume that risk -- just as no private venture assumes the full risk now. And more to my point: catastrophic failure, and indeed accidents at the generating site, are not the only type of nuclear accidents. To argue it as such is ludicrous. There are myriad points along the line, from mining through processing, use, transport, and disposal, that present opportunities for release and dispersal of materials -- and not just the primary materials, but everything that came into contact with them. And such dispersal may not be apparent to persons affected by it (on the other hand, you know it when you've had coal or oil or too much sun dumped on your lawn). Indeed, "accidents" may not even take on the classical attributes that we normally associate with the term - for example there are possible accidents of accounting and recordkeeping, where contaminated metals may inadvertently get routed into stocks of metals that are presumed to be uncontaminated. The same goes for security: an attack on a nuclear plant is a nice straw man to knock down, but that does not cover the wide range of opportunities and types of security risks throughout the system. The 'benefit' of being more concentrated doesn't look so good here -- if a ton of coal is stolen, so what? But with a pound of uranium, plutonium, or even associated contaminated objects, an irresponsible or unknowing thief could do immeasureable harm. It appears to me that the only way one can make nuclear energy seem safe is to reduce the discussion to soundbite arguments and ignore any complexity to the issue. Accuracy includes comprehensiveness. Having said that, you can have the last word now, this is quite off-topic so I'm done with this one for now. Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 03:51:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA09649; Thu, 3 May 2001 03:48:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 03:48:55 -0700 Message-ID: <044601c0d3b6$17f95a20$f68f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "jlsparber" Subject: Re: Peltier Force: Sonic Boom Forces in Semiconductors? Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 04:46:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"w9x7K.0.hM2.MUJyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42330 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In metallic conductors there is about one free electron per atom, and the electron drift velocity under current flow is on the order of millimeters/second, orders of magnitude below the ~ 5 Km/sec velocity of sound in the material, wheras in semiconductors intrinsic conduction occurs at elevated temperatures (or in the presence of heat) and an electric field. It seems possible that electrons kicked up into the conduction band by phonon (sound wave quanta)scattering could exceed the velocity of sound in the material, and set up shock waves that create a net force in the direction of heat flow. IOW, when a heat flux is applied to a semiconductor with an applied electric field, supersonic electrons create a net force on the material? Think about it while I drown myself with coffee. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 06:16:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA10569; Thu, 3 May 2001 06:16:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 06:16:10 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010503081612.009536d0@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 08:16:18 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Peltier Force: Sonic Boom Forces in Semiconductors? In-Reply-To: <044601c0d3b6$17f95a20$f68f85ce@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA10547 Resent-Message-ID: <"jAkrh3.0.2b2.PeLyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42331 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:46 AM 5/3/01 -0500, you wrote: >Think about it while I drown myself with coffee. :-) Yes coffee.... Thats it... Ķ ~ O Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1@yahoo.com cjford1@swbell.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 06:58:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA24365; Thu, 3 May 2001 06:56:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 06:56:10 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503094233.00a89468@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 09:43:39 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. In-Reply-To: References: <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010502150245.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"GUlEn3.0.Zy5.vDMyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42332 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Actually, with global warming increasing both the frequency and violence >of storms, it might be a good thing if it did. Wind generators do not work during storms. They shut down automatically, and feather the propellers. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 07:07:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA12553; Thu, 3 May 2001 07:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 07:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503100045.02909d50@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:04:54 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Wind turbine in tornado Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"kA4Q_1.0.243.3MMyw"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42333 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: >Anything that you place in the great plains makes a target for severe >weather. The more times you put one here the more likely that one of them >will get hit. I shutter to think what sort of damage can be done by one >of those blades once severed by a flying 74 Chevy. This is unlikely, I think. These things are designed to work on platforms in the middle of the North Sea, which has some of the harshest weather on earth. The blades are feathered automatically in high winds, they have a narrow cross section, and they have the structural strength of airplane wings. A flying 74 Chevy whacking into a parked airplane or large helicopter blade would not break it off, and even if it did the debris would not go far. Structures like barns and warehouses have a far greater area exposed to wind (or flying cars), they are much weaker, and they are at ground level. Despite what you see in movies, I doubt that flying Chevys often reach the height of a 2.5 MW wind turbine 64 meters off the ground. The power companies and insurance companies make careful studies of such eventualities. These wind farms are not being constructed by amateurs. Of course, even expert engineers make disastrous miscalculations. By the way, there is a nice photo of the new 40 MW offshore installation in Copenhagen at: http://www.windpower.org/news/webcam.htm The webcam is not working now but they have a still photo, technical information, and funny high-speed video of a confused boat. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 07:34:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA08342; Thu, 3 May 2001 07:32:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 07:32:42 -0700 X-Sent: 3 May 2001 14:32:34 GMT From: "Peter Fred" To: Subject: RE: Peltier Force: Sonic Boom Forces in Semiconductors? Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:31:02 -0400 Message-ID: <000101c0d3dd$ada85fe0$cbe01f26@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <044601c0d3b6$17f95a20$f68f85ce@computer> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"vtlvH2.0.B22.AmMyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42334 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There are no semiconductors in the copper and aluminum hemisphere's where Nick and I both observed a change of weight when we applied heat in the radial direction. I have even applied heat from above to a flat circular aluminum disc and observed a change of weight. See http://pbfred.tripod.com/flatforce.htm. Recently the circular metal cover was left on the burner of our stove after the burner was turned on. It was taken off before it completely turned to brown. However where it browned was at the center at a size of about a quarter. To me this is an indication that most of the rising heat moved to the center of the cover and there was so much of it that the center was browned. So when I illuminate the aluminum disc from above with 3000 W I infer that the heat accumulates rapidly at the center mimicking the same situation Nick creates with his Pita Peltier device where most of the heat with Nick's pita-shaped, copper-enveloped Peltier device at least starts off the center of the copper disc. In these two some what similar incidences a change of weight was observed. However the incidences were different in that in one case there were no semiconductors involved. Regards, Peter Fred "Gravitation as resistance to the radial conduction of heat" http://pbfred.tripod.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 5:46 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: jlsparber Subject: Re: Peltier Force: Sonic Boom Forces in Semiconductors? In metallic conductors there is about one free electron per atom, and the electron drift velocity under current flow is on the order of millimeters/second, orders of magnitude below the ~ 5 Km/sec velocity of sound in the material, wheras in semiconductors intrinsic conduction occurs at elevated temperatures (or in the presence of heat) and an electric field. It seems possible that electrons kicked up into the conduction band by phonon (sound wave quanta)scattering could exceed the velocity of sound in the material, and set up shock waves that create a net force in the direction of heat flow. IOW, when a heat flux is applied to a semiconductor with an applied electric field, supersonic electrons create a net force on the material? Think about it while I drown myself with coffee. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 08:42:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA00387; Thu, 3 May 2001 08:41:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:41:25 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF17DCF.8D5B988A@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:48:31 -0400 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: U fuel cost per kg? References: <3.0.6.32.20010502211028.007a5e40@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Xh4AW.0.z5.amNyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42335 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Will someone who is more familliar with fission technology please tell me > how much the fuel in a standard, present-day power reactor costs? I have > found many confusing documents about what it would cost with advanced > reactors and breeder reactors, but nothing clear about today's reactors. >From the Nuclear Energy Institute: http://www.nei.org/doc.asp?catnum=3&catid=20 "Fuel cost: For a typical 1100 MWe BWR or PWR, the approximate cost of fuel for one reload (replacing 1/3 of the core) is about $40 million, based on an 18-month refueling cycle. " So, the total core would run around $120M. Of course, there are other costs involved as shown at this page. The base site (nei.org) has a wealth of information. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 09:23:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA18074; Thu, 3 May 2001 09:20:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:20:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF18712.C01F35FB@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 12:28:02 -0400 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: How to make a H-Bomb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mcwWW.0.EQ4.gLOyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42336 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A vacuum cleaner, a rope, a salad bowl and a few other elemental items is all it takes to make a nuclear weapon in your own kitchen: http://my.ohio.voyager.net/~dionisio/fun/make-your-own-h-bomb.html with excellent pointers such as: "Safety note: Don't put all your enriched uranium hexafluoride in one bucket. Use at least two or three buckets and keep them in separate corners of the room. This will prevent the premature build-up of a critical mass." Enjoy, Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 09:53:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA28300; Thu, 3 May 2001 09:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503112951.02909d50@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 12:42:19 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wind turbine in tornado + speculation about future energy In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503100045.02909d50@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"XBP6w1.0.6w6.ifOyw"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42337 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "The blades are feathered automatically in high winds, they have a narrow cross section, and they have the structural strength of airplane wings. A flying 74 Chevy whacking into a parked airplane or large helicopter blade would not break it off . . ." The reason for this is pretty obvious. The blades drive a load of 2.5 MW, or 3,350 HP, which is about the same as a large helicopter engine. The blades are pushing the shaft instead of vice versa, and the speed of rotation is much lower, but I suppose the forces and required material strength are roughly comparable. Incidentally, the smallest dispatch aeroderived gas turbine generators used by power companies and factories generating their own power produce 3 MW, about the same as the largest wind turbine. These things are very popular with power companies. No one in the industry has suggested this will result in "too many" individual generators scattered around. Mitchell Jones reacted with horror at the idea that we might have a million machines with this capacity across the landscape, but that is the direction the power companies are moving anyway. Of course wind turbines do take up more space, but the mass of machinery at their core is not much bigger. The towers are big but they will last for centuries if properly maintained. As I mentioned, the wear and tear on wind turbines is much lower than gas turbines, because the temperature and speed are lower. Two other conventional generators share this quality: hydroelectricity and fission. Fission plant steam is held at about 300 deg C, which is much cooler and less efficient than combustion steam. The fuel is cheap, so it is used less efficiently to reduce wear and tear on the machinery. I doubt that CF will be used for many large scale generators, except at large factories. If it is, it will also be at low temperature, mild conditions. CF may be used with steam microturbines for household installations at first, but I predict rapid progress in solid state thermoelectric (TE) devices will soon make these obsolete. In the long term -- say 50 years after the first CF generator -- it will evolve into something like today's battery, fit for any scale. This would either produce electricity directly, tapping some aspect of CF we have not yet discovered, or it will use very high efficiency TE. A cell phone requires about 3 watts peak power. I envision a tiny, very hot 6-watt heat source surrounded by 50% efficient TE in a package roughly the size of today's cell phone battery. The cooling fin would require as much space as today's batteries. I assume that CF reactions will turn on and off reasonably quickly, under perfect control. Five minutes from standby to peak power would be okay. It would never turn off completely. Devices such as lamps, kitchen blenders, televisions and computers will all be self powered, the way a wall clock is today. Lamps installed in high places may be operated with wall switches, but the connection between the switch and lamp will be only be for control, not power. It may be fiber optic, connecting to the lamp's control computer. Perhaps lamps and other devices will communicate with the wireless Bluetooth protocol, and respond to voice commands. In any case, I doubt that houses will have electric wires in the walls. That's good, because wires cause fires and occasionally electrocute children. Voltage high enough to hurt people will not be allowed in houses or public areas. (I believe that low voltage, high amp shocks are not fatal, but in any case, no one will ever see exposed wires or plugs in the future. Power will be self contained.) Speaking of lamps, I just now saw a white LED flashlight on a keychain -- the first white LED I have ever seen. The color is very nice. If these can be scaled up and made cheaply they would eliminate the California energy crises in a year or two, and veto Cheney's plans to build a power station every week. The white LED is a humble 3 mm device that can change the fate of nations overnight, and bankrupt OPEC. Kind of like a CF cathode, except you can buy one today. A surprising number of household applications call for heat, rather the electricity. They include mainly space heating, thermal air conditioning, water heating, cooking, drying clothes. A washer-dryer combination unit with a single chamber has recently been introduced. You dump in the clothes and soap, and an hour later the clothes come out clean and dry. A CF version of this machine would generate its own electricity and heat. (Microwave clothes dryers and combined microwave+heat kitchen stoves are also being developed.) If anomalous energy such as ZPE can be tapped, perhaps it can be converted into electricity more easily. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 10:19:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10491; Thu, 3 May 2001 10:17:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:17:51 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:24:11 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Peter Fred cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Peltier and other thermo electric effects in METAL...NOT required to be Semiconductors In-Reply-To: <000101c0d3dd$ada85fe0$cbe01f26@default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3-yfX1.0.mZ2.-APyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42338 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, Semiconductors are NOT Required to realized Thermo electric effects.... These effects can exhibit themselves in materials systems including but not limited to: a] 2 or more different metals b] a metal and a semiconductor c] a metal and a metal compound d] a metal and a non metal e] two or more non metals f] two samples of the SAME metal ...... g] the same piece of metal in different locations, ie; if you take a piece of wire and bend a loop in it and draw the loop tight to make a "kink" the kinked area is enough different to exhibit a thermo electric current. On Thu, 3 May 2001, Peter Fred wrote: > There are no semiconductors in the copper and aluminum hemisphere's where > Nick and I both observed a change of weight when we applied heat in the > radial direction. I have even applied heat from above to a flat circular > aluminum disc and observed a change of weight. See > http://pbfred.tripod.com/flatforce.htm. > > Recently the circular metal cover was left on the burner of our stove after > the burner was turned on. It was taken off before it completely turned to > brown. However where it browned was at the center at a size of about a > quarter. > > To me this is an indication that most of the rising heat moved to the center > of the cover and there was so much of it that the center was browned. So > when I illuminate the aluminum disc from above with 3000 W I infer that the > heat accumulates rapidly at the center mimicking the same situation Nick > creates with his Pita Peltier device where most of the heat with Nick's > pita-shaped, copper-enveloped Peltier device at least starts off the center > of the copper disc. In these two some what similar incidences a change of > weight was observed. However the incidences were different in that in one > case there were no semiconductors involved. > > Regards, > > Peter Fred > > > "Gravitation as resistance to the radial conduction of heat" > > http://pbfred.tripod.com/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 5:46 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Cc: jlsparber > Subject: Re: Peltier Force: Sonic Boom Forces in Semiconductors? > > > In metallic conductors there is about one free electron per atom, and the > electron > drift velocity under current flow is on the order of millimeters/second, > orders of > magnitude below the ~ 5 Km/sec velocity of sound in the material, wheras in > semiconductors intrinsic conduction occurs at elevated temperatures (or in > the > presence of heat) and an electric field. > > It seems possible that electrons kicked up into the conduction band by > phonon (sound > wave quanta)scattering could exceed the velocity of sound in the material, > and set up > shock waves that create a net force in the direction of heat flow. > > IOW, when a heat flux is applied to a semiconductor with > an applied electric field, supersonic electrons create a net force on the > material? > > Think about it while I drown myself with coffee. :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 10:24:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA12692; Thu, 3 May 2001 10:22:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:22:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:29:14 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: William Beaty Subject: Re: How to make a H-Bomb In-Reply-To: <3AF18712.C01F35FB@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"EVR-e1.0.B63.lFPyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42339 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Does anyone care about the possibility someone may try to find some radioactive mateirals and 'go to wok' in their house with their house hold appliances? On Thu, 3 May 2001, Terry Blanton wrote: > A vacuum cleaner, a rope, a salad bowl and a few other elemental > items is all it takes to make a nuclear weapon in your own > kitchen: > > http://my.ohio.voyager.net/~dionisio/fun/make-your-own-h-bomb.html > > with excellent pointers such as: > > "Safety note: Don't put all your enriched uranium hexafluoride in > one bucket. Use at least two or three buckets and keep them in > separate corners of the room. This will prevent the premature > build-up of a critical mass." > > Enjoy, > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 10:54:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA25169; Thu, 3 May 2001 10:52:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:52:19 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503135013.02909d50@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 13:52:08 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: U fuel cost per kg? In-Reply-To: <3AF17DCF.8D5B988A@bellsouth.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20010502211028.007a5e40@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"95g403.0.X86.HhPyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42340 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > From the Nuclear Energy Institute: > >http://www.nei.org/doc.asp?catnum=3&catid=20 > >"Fuel cost: >For a typical 1100 MWe BWR or PWR, the approximate cost of >fuel for one reload (replacing 1/3 of the core) is about $40 >million, >based on an 18-month refueling cycle. " > >So, the total core would run around $120M. . . . Ummm . . . I hate to ask others to do my homework, but do you happen to know how big a "typical" core is? How many kg of U does it hold? - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 11:28:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07705; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:23:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:23:53 -0700 Message-ID: <006301c0d3f5$a058db40$a78f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: The Knowledge From Antioch College Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:22:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"mdzzV.0.6u1.t8Qyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42341 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If John S. would stop changing the thread titles maybe we could ALL learn something from the knowledge he gleans from the teaching staff at Antioch. :-) Perhaps if this ill mannered behavior would stop, one might listen to his sage "input". Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 11:44:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA16494; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:41:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:41:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF1A7E3.5B090958@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 14:48:03 -0400 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: U fuel cost per kg? References: <3.0.6.32.20010502211028.007a5e40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503135013.02909d50@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yjDAG3.0.U14.xOQyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42344 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Ummm . . . I hate to ask others to do my homework, but do you happen to > know how big a "typical" core is? How many kg of U does it hold? No big deal. I got interested in this topic a few years back and have a number of references. Looking at a comprehensive report: ftp://ftp.eia.doe.gov/pub/nuclear/sptfl94m.pdf gives spent fuel discharges from 1994 which includes current plant capacities. The "average" reactor has an initial load of about 35 MTU (metric tons of Uranium fuel; although, it can vary signicantly. Here's the number you really want: In 1994 boiled water reactors had a fuel efficiency of 33.1 gigaWatt days (thermal) per MTU and pressurized water reactors 40 GWDt/MTU, a figure which might have improved slightly since 1994. This report will probably answer any question you might have. It's about a 5Mbyte PDF file, however. Regards, Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 11:45:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA16347; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:40:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:40:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF196A4.DC93C2AE@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:34:30 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to make a H-Bomb References: <3AF18712.C01F35FB@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5YDfC.0.1_3.pOQyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42343 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This the most irresponsible collection of crap I have ever seen. First of all, if any one not experienced in such work tried what is described, they would be dead long before they actually made a bomb. The danger is not that a bomb could be made based on the description. The danger is that some kid would try and in the process kill himself, his family and his neighbors. I can only hope it would be a kid next door to the author. They now expel kids for bringing a small knife to school. What should be done with someone who gives information that can result in even more harm? Ed Storms Terry Blanton wrote: > A vacuum cleaner, a rope, a salad bowl and a few other elemental > items is all it takes to make a nuclear weapon in your own > kitchen: > > http://my.ohio.voyager.net/~dionisio/fun/make-your-own-h-bomb.html > > with excellent pointers such as: > > "Safety note: Don't put all your enriched uranium hexafluoride in > one bucket. Use at least two or three buckets and keep them in > separate corners of the room. This will prevent the premature > build-up of a critical mass." > > Enjoy, > > Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 11:46:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15376; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:38:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:38:17 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010503111526.009626f0@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 13:38:21 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Wind turbine in tornado In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503100045.02909d50@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"kNaDG2.0.4m3.OMQyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42342 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:04 AM 5/3/01 -0400, you wrote: >Charles Ford wrote: > >>Anything that you place in the great plains makes a target for severe >>weather. The more times you put one here the more likely that one of >>them will get hit. I shutter to think what sort of damage can be done by >>one of those blades once severed by a flying 74 Chevy. > >This is unlikely, I think. These things are designed to work on platforms >in the middle of the North Sea, which has some of the harshest weather on >earth. We have a saying here... "Its not the wind that kills you its the two by four this is in the wind" There are different definitions of harsh. High sustained winds of 165kts are one thing. Concentrated vortices of 360kts is another. Et al. Rain and ice are one thing. Cannonball hail and tree branches are another. > The blades are feathered automatically in high winds, they have a narrow > cross section, and they have the structural strength of airplane wings. A > flying 74 Chevy whacking into a parked airplane or large helicopter blade > would not break it off, First off that 74 Chevy hard steal body can rip open an airplane wing by simply bumping it a bit. Second NSSL has footage clocking a pickup flying through the air approximately 600 feet high at 360kts. having this on video tape is an isolated case but the results of this type of storm damage can be seen everywhere. I do not believe I have to defend myself with examples of tornado and hail damage. >and even if it did the debris would not go far. Structures like barns and >warehouses have a far greater area exposed to wind (or flying cars), they >are much weaker, and they are at ground level. Despite what you see in >movies, I doubt that flying Chevys often reach the height of a 2.5 MW wind >turbine 64 meters off the ground. About that minimum cross section. That assumes that the wind is going the same direction at the top as at the bottom. This is simply not the case with a rotating thunderstorm. What you might see in movies would be fantasy. Another point of interest. Movies do not give you respect for the shear size of this type of event. This is a reality for those of us who live here. http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/tornado.htm take a good look. this was only an F2. The broken windows in the Bank One tower was all done by debris. So think about how high off the ground this debris will fly and how hard you have to hit one of those 3 inch thick laminated tempered glass bulletproof skyscraper windows. (inhale) Understand that I support this technology. And many others (in moderation) There is and will never be a single solution. We must use all of them. Also understand that these are not only being used by utility companies. In Oklahoma there is a grade school that runs one. There are three of them just north west of the DFW airport and many others scattered over the plains close to and in the midst of population centers. These will not withstand a direct tornado hit and will certainly sustain critical damage from large hail. It is only a matter of time and the level of exploitation that will determine when one or more wind generators will kill people. The plains are simply not the place for exploitation of wind generators. Its not safe. >The power companies and insurance companies make careful studies of such >eventualities. These wind farms are not being constructed by amateurs. Of >course, even expert engineers make disastrous miscalculations. This is true enough and when those miscalculations are repeated by habit it multiples the possibility of disaster. Its sort of like playing the lotto. The more times you play the greater your chances of getting a return. Lets not even talk about a jackpot. Moderation not exploitation please. Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1@yahoo.com cjford1@swbell.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 12:02:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26710; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:59:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:59:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF1AC27.E74BDE54@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 15:06:15 -0400 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: U fuel cost per kg? References: <3.0.6.32.20010502211028.007a5e40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503135013.02909d50@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF1A7E3.5B090958@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bNIUG3.0.BX6.-fQyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42345 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > In 1994 boiled water reactors had a fuel efficiency of 33.1 > gigaWatt days (thermal) per MTU and pressurized water reactors 40 > GWDt/MTU, a figure which might have improved slightly since 1994. Oh, and thermal efficiencies run around 33%. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 12:05:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA30245; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:04:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:04:57 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 15:11:19 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Frederick Sparber cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: I am not on the STAFF of Antioch College DO YOU WANT TO LEARN? In-Reply-To: <006301c0d3f5$a058db40$a78f85ce@computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"MKwaE.0.UO7.PlQyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42346 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, 1) I am not on the Staff of Antioch College 2) I have a Guest Account. I am occasionally invited to lecture, I teach from time to time and it is all volunteer. It is my way of giving back to the community who helped me. 3) I change the title of the subject to indicate a change in thought.... 4) Please let me know what is "Ill Mannered" and I will do my best to stop..... 5) I think most people look on me as a PAIN IN THE NECK .....BECAUSE I BOTHER WHAT IS IN THEIR HEADS.... AND THE BOTTLE NECK IS IN THE NECK......... CALL FOR REFERENDUM: I ASK QUESTIONS TO GET TO THE CORE OF THE MATTER I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A FAQ FOR TERMS USED IN NEW PHYSICS QUESTION: A] DOES THE GROUP WISH TO SEE ANSWERS TO NEW PHYSICS TERMS? DOES THE GROUP FIND MY QUESTION ARE: B] HELPING PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND C] HARMING THE LEARNING PROCESS COMMENT: Mostly I am seeing a LOT of "maybe what if I" posts and these posts include one or more or a whole bunch of terms for which there is no definition.... and when I ASK for this ... the definition .... I often get he wildest series of: a] duck, bob, weave, b] different answers c] non answers d] "word smorgasbord" e] "word all-you-can-eat" f] "word New Age Lite" ( not Light ... lite ) g] from twisted to convoluted to ......??????? Does the community want Items [a] through (not thru) [g] or would the community wish to try simple clear answers? ================= Q: Can we try for simple clear stuff? J Maybe to be held accountable to having to Explain your thoughs ... or worse, to have to support why you think the ramblings of someone Else might hold water ... maybe this is too hard.... too much trouble... Last year a contributor wrote I was lying because I could not cite the URL my information came from. I cited the book. This caused the contributor to write I was un ethical to use information from a BOOK .... because not everyone could freely have access to the book. Hmmm.... On Thu, 3 May 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > If John S. would stop changing the thread titles maybe we could ALL > learn something from the knowledge he gleans from the teaching staff at > Antioch. :-) > > Perhaps if this ill mannered behavior would stop, one might listen to > his sage "input". > > Regards, Frederick > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 12:14:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00758; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:11:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:11:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF1AEF4.55E45EFF@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 15:18:12 -0400 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to make a H-Bomb References: <3AF18712.C01F35FB@bellsouth.net> <3AF196A4.DC93C2AE@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jbejs3.0.lB.CrQyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42347 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > > This the most irresponsible collection of crap I have ever seen. Geeze guys, it's a joke. Quoting: "And, high-level radiation may bring unexpected benefits. It speeds up evolution by weeding out unwanted genetic types and creating new ones. (Remember the old saying, "Two heads are better than one.") Nearer to home, it's plain that radiation will get rid of pesky crab grass and weeds, and teenagers will find that brief exposure to a nuclear burst vaporizes acne and other skin blemishes. (Many survivors of the Hiroshima bomb found that they were free from skin and it's attendant problems forever.)" If you really want to make a bomb there's dozens of web references. Here's one: http://home.clara.net/nybbles/oldestuff/vik/nuke/contents.html There's even a book available called "Basement Nukes". Have a bright day! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 12:22:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05608; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:20:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:20:50 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503150447.02909d50@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 15:20:40 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: How to make a H-Bomb In-Reply-To: <3AF196A4.DC93C2AE@ix.netcom.com> References: <3AF18712.C01F35FB@bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"qEfxL2.0.MN1.G-Qyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42348 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >This the most irresponsible collection of crap I have ever seen. >First of all, if any one not experienced in such work tried what is >described, they would be dead long before they actually made a bomb. That would be the best outcome. The authors hope that would happen. You might say they are setting a fatal trap for anyone stupid enough to follow their directions. They make it clear in several places that this would kill you. >The danger is not that a bomb could be made based on the >description. The danger is that some kid would try and in the >process kill himself, his family and his neighbors. I can only hope >it would be a kid next door to the author. They now expel kids for >bringing a small knife to school. What should be done with someone >who gives information that can result in even more harm? Well . . . yes and no. This is irresponsible HOWEVER anyone who seriously wants to make a bomb could probably find all of this information on his own without much trouble, plus you can probably learn how to do it safely. In a sense, the authors are doing the public a favor by showing how easy it is to make a bomb. The terrorists probably know which factories, stockpiles and shipments are not guarded, for example. Similar information was in the front page headlines in Japan for months after the Tokaimura accident. (That facility did not have so much as a chain link fence. Anyone could have walked in off the street and stolen the materials.) The authors are using satire to tell the public about this problem. It reminds me a little of the Introduction to Huff's classic, "How to Lie with Statistics." "This book is a sort of primer in ways to use statistics to deceive. It may seem altogether too much like a manual for swindlers. Perhaps I can justify it in the manner of the retired burglar whose published reminiscences amounted to a graduate course in how to pick a lock and muffle a footfall: The crooks already know these tricks; honest men must learn them In self-defense." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 12:57:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20343; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:54:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:54:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:00:53 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Jed Rothwell cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to make a H-Bomb In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503150447.02909d50@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"W46VQ3.0.lz4.vTRyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42349 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, Quite often there are posts to vortex andother "New Science" discussion lists which suggest projects which range from not very smart to lethal. Frequently there are suggestions to use radioactive emitters and suggestions that this is OK.... and they are safe. Lead 210 was the last I heard of. The tag line was that it was "safe" and the author thought we were laboring under the "chains and bondage" of propaganda, that anyone could usethe material and would be no worse off for the experience. Would you say Lead 210 is a safe radio isotope for a household consumable, such as a light bulb. On Thu, 3 May 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > > >This the most irresponsible collection of crap I have ever seen. > >First of all, if any one not experienced in such work tried what is > >described, they would be dead long before they actually made a bomb. > > That would be the best outcome. The authors hope that would happen. You > might say they are setting a fatal trap for anyone stupid enough to follow > their directions. They make it clear in several places that this would kill > you. > > > >The danger is not that a bomb could be made based on the > >description. The danger is that some kid would try and in the > >process kill himself, his family and his neighbors. I can only hope > >it would be a kid next door to the author. They now expel kids for > >bringing a small knife to school. What should be done with someone > >who gives information that can result in even more harm? > > Well . . . yes and no. This is irresponsible HOWEVER anyone who seriously > wants to make a bomb could probably find all of this information on his own > without much trouble, plus you can probably learn how to do it safely. In a > sense, the authors are doing the public a favor by showing how easy it is > to make a bomb. The terrorists probably know which factories, stockpiles > and shipments are not guarded, for example. Similar information was in the > front page headlines in Japan for months after the Tokaimura accident. > (That facility did not have so much as a chain link fence. Anyone could > have walked in off the street and stolen the materials.) The authors are > using satire to tell the public about this problem. > > It reminds me a little of the Introduction to Huff's classic, "How to Lie > with Statistics." "This book is a sort of primer in ways to use statistics > to deceive. It may seem altogether too much like a manual for swindlers. > Perhaps I can justify it in the manner of the retired burglar whose > published reminiscences amounted to a graduate course in how to pick a lock > and muffle a footfall: The crooks already know these tricks; honest men > must learn them In self-defense." > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 13:46:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08664; Thu, 3 May 2001 13:42:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:42:33 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503153049.028e92b8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 16:42:31 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: U fuel cost per kg? In-Reply-To: <3AF1AC27.E74BDE54@bellsouth.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20010502211028.007a5e40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503135013.02909d50@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF1A7E3.5B090958@bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Kr3lj.0.972.tASyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42350 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > In 1994 boiled water reactors had a fuel efficiency of 33.1 > > gigaWatt days (thermal) per MTU . . . >Oh, and thermal efficiencies run around 33%. . . . which is much lower than combustion steam turbines built at the same time (average 18 years ago). The reason, as I said before, is to reduce wear and tear on the turbines, pipes and other equipment. Okay, so putting these numbers in one place . . . we have: 35 metric tons of uranium $120 million $3,430 per kilogram 40 GWDt/MTU equals . . . ummm . . . 3.5 million giga-joules per ton That comes to 3.5 million megajoules heat per kilogram 1.1 million MJ electricity (33% efficiency) 316,800 kWh converted Compared to coal: 23 MJ per kg heat 9.2 MJ of electricity (40% efficiency) 2.6 kWh converted So the ratio for U:coal heat is 144,000:1, close to what I figured yesterday. 1 US ton of coal seems to cost ~$40, but other sources say low sulfur coal costs as much as $113/ton. Taking $40 that's: $0.044/kg $0.017 per kWh VERSUS $0.011 per kWh uranium fuel . . . Big deal! So what? The cost difference is hardly worth it. The plants cost per kW is $500 for coal, $3,000 for uranium. The U does not pollute as much, so it may benefit society, but it looks like a losing proposition for the power companies. Assuming my math is right, there is no significant cost difference between the fuels. I would appreciate it if someone would check the math, and the assumptions. You can see why the power companies want to run the nuclear reactors as long as possible once they build them. Here in Georgia, 80% of electricity is from coal. After the nuclear Plant Vogtle went on line, the power company announced it would to raise its rates to cover the increased costs. BUT the newspapers now say they are thinking of building another nuclear plant, with a pre-approved design, for only $1,000/kW. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 14:06:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA20269; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:04:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:04:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF1C817.57033B4C@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 17:05:27 -0400 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: U fuel cost per kg? References: <3.0.6.32.20010502211028.007a5e40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503135013.02909d50@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF1A7E3.5B090958@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503153049.028e92b8@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bRqQ_.0.4y4.4VSyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42351 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > $0.044/kg > $0.017 per kWh [coal] > > VERSUS > > $0.011 per kWh uranium fuel . . . > > Big deal! So what? The cost difference is hardly worth it. Gee, Jed, I could have told you the bottom lines. It's worse than your numbers show since you are just considering fuel costs. All costs considered, U costs $0.018 against C at $0.020, using current techniques for waste remediation. So, we have to weigh the environmental effects, eh? When we do a business case for rapid transit, the prime cost we offset is environmental pollution. Did you see that Atlanta has jumped from #9 to #6 in [bad] air quality? http://www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/epaper/editions/tuesday/news_a3ee755350daf051005e.html Regards, Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 14:51:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11185; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:49:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:49:11 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20010503163617.02059cd0@pop.infi-net.mindspring.com> X-Sender: stk@pop.infi-net.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 16:39:02 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Subject: Re: The Knowledge From Antioch College In-Reply-To: <006301c0d3f5$a058db40$a78f85ce@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"daJJ5.0.Yk2.N9Tyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42352 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hmmmm.... Who's the poster we have here, I just can't think of his name, who always posts a massive dump of HTML, changes thread names leaving a "re:" in place which is sometimes quite confusing...more so than a frontal add-on label. *cough**cough**sparber**cough* ;) --K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 15:05:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA18320; Thu, 3 May 2001 15:03:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 15:03:42 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503173440.028f7008@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 18:03:40 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: U fuel cost per kg? In-Reply-To: <3AF1C817.57033B4C@bellsouth.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20010502211028.007a5e40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503135013.02909d50@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF1A7E3.5B090958@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503153049.028e92b8@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"UAlsf2.0.0U4.yMTyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42353 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Gee, Jed, I could have told you the bottom lines. It's worse >than your numbers show since you are just considering fuel >costs. All costs considered, U costs $0.018 against C at $0.020, >using current techniques for waste remediation. Yes, those numbers are quoted in the literature and news reports. I wanted to get a sense of how much of that is due to fuel cost alone. My analysis is crude, and I think coal is more expensive than $40, or it will be soon, since gas and oil are going up. >So, we have to weigh the environmental effects, eh? When we do a >business case for rapid transit, the prime cost we offset is >environmental pollution. In Washington DC and New York you can add the cost of frustration. Driving is impossible there. Rapid transit in Washington DC is growing by leaps and bounds. Nationwide, the absolute number of people on buses and commuter trains has not been this high since the Eisenhower administration. >Did you see that Atlanta has jumped from #9 to #6 in [bad] air >quality? Yes, and our high school graduation dropout rate is mired at 49.6%. I suspect there is a connection. In education we say thank God for Alabama and Mississippi for keeping us out of last place. In air pollution, we thank Texas and L.A. When you compare things like U.S. dropout rate and dollar productivity per BTU to Japan and Europe, you wonder how we manage to survive economically. We don't, in many cases. Our products don't compete. We export raw materials and food, not finished goods. It is a good there is an ocean between us, making our economy is so insular, or the U.S. would be reduced to the status of a third-world colony. The stuff I have been reading about wind power drives the point home. Here we have the fastest-growing energy technology on earth, worth $5 billion per year, installing more MW per year worldwide than nuclear power. By 2010 the Europeans will have 40,000 MW installed. And what role does the U.S. play? Practically zip! We have handed over a gold mine to Denmark, a nation of 5 million people. They have 3,800 people directly employed in the industry, and another 10,000 making components. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 15:40:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA02092; Thu, 3 May 2001 15:37:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 15:37:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF1D086.B4266506@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 15:41:36 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to make a H-Bomb References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HfiGr.0.XW.lsTyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42354 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stupid people can make any suggestion they want because most suggestions have no risk because they can never be implemented. For example, no one would actually use lead210 because it has a 22 year half-life and it is very expensive and difficult to acquire. On the other hand, when a person suggests that UO3 can be converted to uranium hexafloride using HF and F2, someone might actually try this because the chemicals can be obtained. The result would be a painful death. After all, kids are resourceful and could easily be intrigued by the idea of building a bomb. Of course, the rest of the recipe is a joke and would never work. The issue is not about giving away secrets to terrorists because this information is useless for their purpose. Also, the issue is not about showing ordinary folk how easy a bomb can be built, because building an A bomb is not easy. The article gives a very false impression on this subject. The issue is that such descriptions can cause a bright and resourceful high school student to duplicate the instructions. One has to wonder just what the purpose of such an article was in the mind of the writer, other than to be cute. Ed Storms The article John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Folks, > > Quite often there are posts to vortex andother "New Science" > discussion lists which suggest projects which range from not very smart to > lethal. > Frequently there are suggestions to use radioactive emitters and > suggestions that this is OK.... and they are safe. Lead 210 was the last > I heard of. The tag line was that it was "safe" and the author thought we > were laboring under the "chains and bondage" of propaganda, that anyone > could usethe material and would be no worse off for the experience. > > Would you say Lead 210 is a safe radio isotope for a household > consumable, such as a light bulb. > > On Thu, 3 May 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Edmund Storms wrote: > > > > >This the most irresponsible collection of crap I have ever seen. > > >First of all, if any one not experienced in such work tried what is > > >described, they would be dead long before they actually made a bomb. > > > > That would be the best outcome. The authors hope that would happen. You > > might say they are setting a fatal trap for anyone stupid enough to follow > > their directions. They make it clear in several places that this would kill > > you. > > > > > > >The danger is not that a bomb could be made based on the > > >description. The danger is that some kid would try and in the > > >process kill himself, his family and his neighbors. I can only hope > > >it would be a kid next door to the author. They now expel kids for > > >bringing a small knife to school. What should be done with someone > > >who gives information that can result in even more harm? > > > > Well . . . yes and no. This is irresponsible HOWEVER anyone who seriously > > wants to make a bomb could probably find all of this information on his own > > without much trouble, plus you can probably learn how to do it safely. In a > > sense, the authors are doing the public a favor by showing how easy it is > > to make a bomb. The terrorists probably know which factories, stockpiles > > and shipments are not guarded, for example. Similar information was in the > > front page headlines in Japan for months after the Tokaimura accident. > > (That facility did not have so much as a chain link fence. Anyone could > > have walked in off the street and stolen the materials.) The authors are > > using satire to tell the public about this problem. > > > > It reminds me a little of the Introduction to Huff's classic, "How to Lie > > with Statistics." "This book is a sort of primer in ways to use statistics > > to deceive. It may seem altogether too much like a manual for swindlers. > > Perhaps I can justify it in the manner of the retired burglar whose > > published reminiscences amounted to a graduate course in how to pick a lock > > and muffle a footfall: The crooks already know these tricks; honest men > > must learn them In self-defense." > > > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 16:28:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA24252; Thu, 3 May 2001 16:26:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:26:03 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 16:31:17 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re[2]: How to make a H-Bomb In-reply-to: <3AF1D086.B4266506@ix.netcom.com> To: Edmund Storms Reply-to: Lynn Kurtz Message-id: <1321744326.20010503163117@imap2.asu.edu> Organization: ASU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.44) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3AF1D086.B4266506@ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"fe-DF.0.sw5.AaUyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42355 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday, May 03, 2001 you wrote ES> One has to wonder just what the purpose of such an article was in ES> the mind of the writer, other than to be cute. ES> Ed Storms What's to wonder about? The first four lines of the article referenced are: From: ascott@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Andrew Scott) Newsgroups: rec.humor Subject: How To Build An H-Bomb (humorous!) Date: 7 Feb 1994 07:41:14 GMT Watson: "It appears to have been posted in the rec.humor newsgroup. Upon further examination, I also note that the subject line contains the unencrypted text '(humorous!)'. What do you make of it?" Holmes: "Elementary my dear Watson!" --Lynn From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 18:24:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA05059; Thu, 3 May 2001 18:15:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 18:15:11 -0700 Message-ID: <008f01c0d450$ed91c740$0c58ccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3AF1D086.B4266506@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: How to make a H-Bomb Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:55:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"XoN7E2.0.zE1.VAWyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42357 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms said: > Stupid people can make any suggestion they want because most suggestions have no > risk because they can never be implemented. For example, no one would actually > use lead210 because it has a 22 year half-life and it is very expensive and > difficult to acquire. On the other hand, when a person suggests that UO3 can be > converted to uranium hexafloride using HF and F2, someone might actually try > this because the chemicals can be obtained. The result would be a painful > death. After all, kids are resourceful and could easily be intrigued by the > idea of building a bomb. Of course, the rest of the recipe is a joke and would > never work. > > The issue is not about giving away secrets to terrorists because this > information is useless for their purpose. Also, the issue is not about showing > ordinary folk how easy a bomb can be built, because building an A bomb is not > easy. The article gives a very false impression on this subject. The issue is > that such descriptions can cause a bright and resourceful high school student to > duplicate the instructions. One has to wonder just what the purpose of such an > article was in the mind of the writer, other than to be cute. I agree with Ed. The article is beyond humor, it is totally irresponsible to float the notion of trying such stuff. All the chemicals involved are extremely and painfully deadly. Building A and H bombs seem easy in principle but thankfully difficult to do in practice. Done clumsily, there is great danger not only to the builder but to his neighbors as well. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 18:24:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA05027; Thu, 3 May 2001 18:15:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 18:15:03 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c0d437$0bd3e5e0$6f3dee3f@default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: Subject: Odd / marginal topic - Effects from crystals Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:10:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0D415.82BB7960" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"jutLn.0.TE1.NAWyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42356 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0D415.82BB7960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentlemen; A daring plunge into a topic sure to arouse umbrage and ire and minor = squabbling. Maybe... I am trying to find ANY paper or reference - anywhere - that would = cover any clinical / double blind experiments using "New Age" crystal = healing techniques. My presumption is that any such results have been = negative, though it would be nice to be proven wrong. Laboratory PK and PSI studies have been around for a long while, and = are still in debate (depending on one's position - mine is neutral but = hopeful) Testing of controversial or alternative healing seems to be = far and few between, for some pretty obvious reasons, one would imagine. Anyway, if anyone knows of a legitimate clinical study of "crystal = healing", regardless of the results, I would be grateful. If you feel = it is too far off Vortex topic, then please e-mail me privately. Thanks; NR ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0D415.82BB7960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentlemen;
 
   A daring plunge into a = topic sure to=20 arouse umbrage and ire and minor squabbling.  Maybe...
 
   I am trying to find ANY = paper or=20 reference - anywhere - that would cover any clinical / double blind = experiments=20 using "New Age" crystal healing techniques.  My presumption is that = any=20 such results have been negative, though it would be nice to be = proven=20 wrong.
 
   Laboratory PK and PSI = studies have=20 been around for a long while, and are still in debate (depending on = one's=20 position - mine is neutral but hopeful)  Testing of controversial = or=20 alternative healing seems to be far and few between, for some pretty = obvious=20 reasons, one would imagine.
 
   Anyway, if anyone knows of = a=20 legitimate clinical study of "crystal healing", regardless of the = results, I=20 would be grateful.  If you feel it is too far off Vortex topic, = then please=20 e-mail me privately.
 
Thanks;
 
NR
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0D415.82BB7960-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 18:59:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA21786; Thu, 3 May 2001 18:59:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 18:59:06 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3AF196A4.DC93C2AE@ix.netcom.com> References: <3AF18712.C01F35FB@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:51:53 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: How to make a H-Bomb Resent-Message-ID: <"kpUI_1.0.GK5.gpWyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42358 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >This the most irresponsible collection of crap I have ever seen. >First of all, if any one not experienced in such work tried what is >described, they would be dead long before they actually made a bomb. >The danger is not that a bomb could be made based on the >description. The danger is that some kid would try and in the >process kill himself, his family and his neighbors. I can only hope >it would be a kid next door to the author. They now expel kids for >bringing a small knife to school. What should be done with someone >who gives information that can result in even more harm? > >Ed Storms ***{Come on, Ed, lighten up. The piece was an obvious spoof, and included no details not available in a million places. Surely there are more fitting targets for indignation than that. --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 19:15:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA27613; Thu, 3 May 2001 19:14:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:14:38 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 12:14:03 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010502150245.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503094233.00a89468@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503094233.00a89468@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA27578 Resent-Message-ID: <"EMWBM.0.Nl6.E2Xyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42359 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 03 May 2001 09:43:39 -0400: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>Actually, with global warming increasing both the frequency and violence >>of storms, it might be a good thing if it did. > >Wind generators do not work during storms. They shut down automatically, >and feather the propellers. That doesn't matter. The point is that by using wind energy, one is extracting energy from the weather system as a whole, which goes toward removing some of the excess being put in by global warming. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 19:42:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA04473; Thu, 3 May 2001 19:40:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:40:03 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c0d43a$f53421c0$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010502150245.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503094233.00a89468@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:38:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"E5IAd1.0.p51.3QXyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42360 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. With 12,000 Quads/day Solar Insolation on the Earth and ~ 1.0 Quads/day Total World Energy Production and Use, it doesn't seem likely that a Quad or Two of wind energy extraction would make much malevolent difference. :-) Regards, Frederick > In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 03 May 2001 09:43:39 -0400: > > >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > >>Actually, with global warming increasing both the frequency and violence > >>of storms, it might be a good thing if it did. > > > >Wind generators do not work during storms. They shut down automatically, > >and feather the propellers. > > That doesn't matter. The point is that by using wind energy, one is > extracting energy from the weather system as a whole, which goes toward > removing some of the excess being put in by global warming. > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 20:22:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA13419; Thu, 3 May 2001 20:06:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:06:50 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: U fuel cost per kg? Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 13:06:30 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3.0.6.32.20010502211028.007a5e40@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503135013.02909d50@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF1A7E3.5B090958@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503153049.028e92b8@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF1C817.57033B4C@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2. 20010503173440.028f7008@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503173440.028f7008@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA13377 Resent-Message-ID: <"MO2-r3.0.aH3.9pXyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42361 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 03 May 2001 18:03:40 -0400: >Terry Blanton wrote: > >>Gee, Jed, I could have told you the bottom lines. It's worse >>than your numbers show since you are just considering fuel >>costs. All costs considered, U costs $0.018 against C at $0.020, >>using current techniques for waste remediation. > >Yes, those numbers are quoted in the literature and news reports. I wanted >to get a sense of how much of that is due to fuel cost alone. My analysis >is crude, and I think coal is more expensive than $40, or it will be soon, >since gas and oil are going up. [snip] >From the sight Terry originally quoted: "Fuel cost: For a typical 1100 MWe BWR or PWR, the approximate cost of fuel for one reload (replacing 1/3 of the core) is about $40 million, based on an 18-month refueling cycle." Since the output power is quoted in MW electric, and the fuel cost is given directly, I get a figure of $0.002766 / kWh for nuclear (note that only 1/3 of the fuel is replaced every 1800 months, so a full charge lasts 4.5 years. IOW you need to use the $40E6 figure, if you calculate electricity produced over 18 months). This ignores other costs, but on just a fuel basis it would appear to be about 7 times cheaper than cheap coal. There is also the assumption that there is no "downtime", however it seems reasonable to assume that the downtime for both types of plants would be about the same. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 20:51:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA00978; Thu, 3 May 2001 20:50:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:50:18 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 13:50:07 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010502150245.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503094233.00a89468@pop.mindspring.com> <001101c0d43a$f53421c0$ba8f85ce@computer> In-Reply-To: <001101c0d43a$f53421c0$ba8f85ce@computer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA00944 Resent-Message-ID: <"2eiGo.0.6F.vRYyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42362 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Thu, 3 May 2001 20:38:35 -0500: [snip]>With 12,000 Quads/day Solar Insolation on the Earth and >~ 1.0 Quads/day Total World Energy Production and Use, it doesn't seem likely that a >Quad or Two of wind energy extraction would make much malevolent difference. :-) [snip] Well at least somone's awake! :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 21:25:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA14807; Thu, 3 May 2001 21:23:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:23:46 -0700 Message-ID: <002d01c0d449$739c5420$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Sam Haines" , "jlsparber" , Subject: The Decay of the Atomic Powered Aircraft Program (12 Nov 1992) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 22:22:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0D41F.822AEDA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"naqOp3.0.Hd3.IxYyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42363 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0D41F.822AEDA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This will set Jed on Fire. :-) http://www.islandone.org/Propulsion/AtomPlane.html Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0D41F.822AEDA0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="The Decay of the Atomic Powered Aircraft Program (12 Nov 1992).url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="The Decay of the Atomic Powered Aircraft Program (12 Nov 1992).url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.islandone.org/Propulsion/AtomPlane.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.islandone.org/Propulsion/AtomPlane.html Modified=A0603D2349D4C0013E ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C0D41F.822AEDA0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 21:34:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA18927; Thu, 3 May 2001 21:34:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:34:02 -0700 Message-ID: <003601c0d44a$e2bd5060$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: B-70 Valkyrie - United States Nuclear Forces Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 22:32:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0D420.F00B7AA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"uwqws1.0.ad4.v4Zyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42364 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0D420.F00B7AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-70.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0D420.F00B7AA0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="B-70 Valkyrie - United States Nuclear Forces.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="B-70 Valkyrie - United States Nuclear Forces.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-70.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-70.htm Modified=4033B9C94AD4C001D4 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0D420.F00B7AA0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 22:11:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA00743; Thu, 3 May 2001 22:11:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 22:11:09 -0700 Message-ID: <005701c0d450$120a21e0$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Sam Haines" , "jlsparber" , Subject: RB-36H Peacemaker Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 23:09:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D426.18608B80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"Pp4aT1.0.XB.jdZyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42365 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D426.18608B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was no mistaking the drone of the Six piston-driven engines of these birds while trying to get some sleep in the barracks near the end of the runway, back in 1951. The pistons were about 8 inches in diameter. http://www.elite.net/castle-air/b36.htm Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D426.18608B80 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="RB-36H Peacemaker.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="RB-36H Peacemaker.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.elite.net/castle-air/b36.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.elite.net/castle-air/b36.htm Modified=6032E3034FD4C0015C ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D426.18608B80-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 3 23:55:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA31859; Thu, 3 May 2001 23:55:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 23:55:19 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 06:54:48 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3af8484f.27747777@mail.midiowa.net> References: <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010502150245.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503094233.00a89468@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503094233.00a89468@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA31838 Resent-Message-ID: <"VAXOQ.0.jn7.M9byw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42366 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 03 May 2001 09:43:39 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>Actually, with global warming increasing both the frequency and violence >>of storms, it might be a good thing if it did. > >Wind generators do not work during storms. They shut down automatically, >and feather the propellers. Some do, some don't. Some are self-limiting and will spin at almost any wind speed. Look at: http://www.windside.com/frames.htm http://www.solwind.co.nz/vawt.htm http://www.synergypowercorp.com/patented.htm There's another one that claims 48% efficiency (instead of the normal 28-33%) and works from 3 MPH to 150 MPH, but I've lost the URL for the moment. -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 00:27:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA07841; Fri, 4 May 2001 00:26:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 00:26:15 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3AF196A4.DC93C2AE@ix.netcom.com> References: <3AF18712.C01F35FB@bellsouth.net> <3AF196A4.DC93C2AE@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 02:26:26 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: How to make a H-Bomb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZeWo83.0.Rw1.Ncbyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42367 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storm wrote; >This the most irresponsible collection of crap I have ever seen. That's not what I want to know Ed, just how accurate is their process? How thick of a salad bowl would be required to jacket a device? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 00:47:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA12138; Fri, 4 May 2001 00:46:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 00:46:36 -0700 Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 03:52:53 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Bill Hamilton cc: Dan Winter , dan winter , JNaudin509@aol.com, greenglow@egroups.com, Vortex , Dan Winter Subject: Bentov ... Koans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8CoGK2.0.Tz2.Rvbyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42368 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bentov's thinking touched the work at the Brain Actuated Control Laboratory duribg investigations of connections human EEG and audio frequencies. Bentov measured tiny micro motion of the human body in an effort to search for further sugbaks from the Human system. To this end a series of micro motion sensors have been built. One of the first, many years ago, used differential electrometry to acquire the Human ECG 4 inches away from the chest. There was no contact between the instrument and the subject. Some of the later instruments can sense the position if the tongue from the outside of the closed mouth, the motion of the heart muscle with no electrical connection and the list goes on. Gives me the wiggle wummpas sometimes thinking about it... and I designed and made the instruments. We have great hopes to give the gift of reading to those who, today, cannot. To give mobility to those who today, cannot, to help to give hearing and sight to those who, today cannot. The tools so far at my disposal are zero dollars. One college student. Myself. Some tools and parts. On Wed, 2 May 2001, Bill Hamilton wrote: > Bentov's book is par excellent. I remember the day it was announced > that his flight crashed coming into Chicago and we lost a great > inquiring mind - who knows what more he had to give to the world? > > Bill H > > > >From: riskrraven@aol.com > >Reply-To: greenglow@yahoogroups.com > >To: greenglow@yahoogroups.com > >CC: herman@antioch-college.edu > >Subject: [antigrav] Re: Koans.Moans...dog and Rabbit... > >Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 13:09:06 EDT > > > >Hi John, and All, > > > >A very excellent little book called "Stalking the Wild Pendulum" by Itzhak > >Bentov talks about consciousness and the physical world--I can highly > >recommend it to you. Bentov excellently weaves together science and > >metaphysics in a very friendly, unpretenious way. It's a "hard" read at > >times, not because it's necessarily written with confusing or complex > >syntax > >or vocabulary, but the concepts are just very..."earthfully abstract." In > >other words, the book has the ability to (and, for me, did!) short circuit > >one's hemispheres, as more often than not, both, working with a high amount > >of intercommunication, are needed to engage the material "with comfort." > >The > >hard part is, most of us are used to hanging with logic for most of the > >day, > >then paying attention intuition when we get home (lest we dare get > >insensitive with the wife/girlfriend and end up on the couch!). At any > >rate, > >I enjoyed it thoroughly; hope you do too. > > > >Best Regards, > >Ed > > > > > > > >In a message dated 5/1/01 5:19:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > >herman@antioch-college.edu writes: > > > > > > > > > > SO: > > > > > > Do you believe in rocks? > > > Dogs and Rabbits? > > > > > > Does the rock have a soul? > > > > > > Does the rock have a Soul? > > > > > > Can the Rabbit hear the Tree? > > > > > > Can the tree hear > > > Yes,Trees hear ... the tree hears.... > > > > > > > > > > > > How Faint the sound now > > > > > > The falling tree makes the sound > > > > > > NOW tree hear tree fall > > > > > > > > > Now how Faint the sound > > > Fall tree fall tree fall tree fall > > > all trees hear these now > > > > > > > > > a small sound from far > > > tree many fields away falls > > > sounds sound for all time > > > > > > > > > > > > poet,knowit,shoews,showit,size12 > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 02:39:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA02518; Fri, 4 May 2001 02:39:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 02:39:25 -0700 Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 05:45:41 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Robin van Spaandonk cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: U fuel cost per kg? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"HjuqU1.0.Ed.CZdyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42369 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The cost of U fuel should include all incidentals such as storage, processing, health issues, a percentage for screw up or melt up, poisioning of water air and land... and so on..... On Fri, 4 May 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 03 May 2001 18:03:40 -0400: > > >Terry Blanton wrote: > > > >>Gee, Jed, I could have told you the bottom lines. It's worse > >>than your numbers show since you are just considering fuel > >>costs. All costs considered, U costs $0.018 against C at $0.020, > >>using current techniques for waste remediation. > > > >Yes, those numbers are quoted in the literature and news reports. I wanted > >to get a sense of how much of that is due to fuel cost alone. My analysis > >is crude, and I think coal is more expensive than $40, or it will be soon, > >since gas and oil are going up. > [snip] > >From the sight Terry originally quoted: > "Fuel cost: > For a typical 1100 MWe BWR or PWR, the approximate cost of fuel for one > reload (replacing 1/3 of the core) is about $40 million, based on an > 18-month refueling cycle." > > Since the output power is quoted in MW electric, and the fuel cost is > given directly, I get a figure of $0.002766 / kWh for nuclear (note that > only 1/3 of the fuel is replaced every 1800 months, so a full charge > lasts 4.5 years. IOW you need to use the $40E6 figure, if you calculate > electricity produced over 18 months). > This ignores other costs, but on just a fuel basis it would appear to be > about 7 times cheaper than cheap coal. > There is also the assumption that there is no "downtime", however it > seems reasonable to assume that the downtime for both types of plants > would be about the same. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 05:47:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA16321; Fri, 4 May 2001 05:46:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 05:46:40 -0700 Message-ID: <008301c0d48f$b33b6580$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Sam Haines" , "jlsparber" Subject: Re: Zero Dollars? Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 06:45:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"e64b12.0.x-3.lIgyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42370 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Get a job, that pays enough to start up a magazine as a sideline. Once the sucker money starts rolling in, set up an R&D lab and pursue the "save the world" fantasies. Entry Level Job Options: 1, Speed Bump at McDonalds. 2, Greeter at Wal-Mart 3, School Crossing Guard Potential Investors (down at the Senior Citizens Center): 1, Retired CEOs from Fortune 500 Corporations. 2, Little Old Ladies. Good Luck! :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 07:32:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA01719; Fri, 4 May 2001 07:31:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 07:31:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF2B00B.6EAFA8FA@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 07:35:08 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to make a H-Bomb References: <3AF18712.C01F35FB@bellsouth.net> <3AF196A4.DC93C2AE@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yrC-G3.0.mQ.7rhyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42371 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fortunately, nothing about this description is accurate. It is rather like my showing you how to build a jet engine using cooling fans obtained at Sears. The shapes would be roughly similar to the real thing, but the result would be silly, although not dangerous. In this case, the problem is that the chemicals are real and deadly. In answer to your question, no salad bowl, no matter how thick, will work. Ed thomas malloy wrote: > Ed Storm wrote; > > >This the most irresponsible collection of crap I have ever seen. > > That's not what I want to know Ed, just how accurate is their > process? How thick of a salad bowl would be required to jacket a > device? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 08:00:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA16303; Fri, 4 May 2001 07:57:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 07:57:37 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010504092742.0096a3e0@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:57:32 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503094233.00a89468@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010502150245.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503094233.00a89468@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"d6Jw23.0.a-3.XDiyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42372 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin: Jed: This is in so many ways a wonderful technology Build them in the north sea build them up the eastern US seaboard. Build them in the trade winds build them on the islands. Build them on the hills of central California. Build them wherever it is safe to do so. DO NOT build them in Tornado Alley. In time if necessary we can use other methods in the plains. Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1@yahoo.com cjford1@swbell.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 08:11:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA22424; Fri, 4 May 2001 08:08:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:08:56 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010504100536.00a89308@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 11:08:56 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: U fuel cost per kg? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"9BUpL3.0.IU5.8Oiyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42373 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > The cost of U fuel should include all incidentals such as storage, >processing, health issues, a percentage for screw up or melt up, >poisioning of water air and land... and so on..... Those costs are included in the fuel price. The "percentage for screw ups" is covered the insurance paid by the mining and processing companies. Uranium is chemically dangerous, like lead, so mining and handling is expensive. The poisoning of the land is supposed to be addressed by the special tax that all nuclear plant operators pay, to cover eventual decommissioning and the underground radwaste and spent fuel storage facility, which is not yet in operation. Whether this actually fixes the problem and protects the land and people is a matter of dispute. The experts disagree, and I cannot judge the issue. Mining and processing are reasonably straightforward, with quantifiable risks, but it is impossible to say whether the insurance premiums for the power plants are high enough, or too high. There have only been a few serious accidents with U.S. reactors, at Brown's Ferry and TMI. That is not enough samples to judge the risk. The statistical projections made before TMI turned out to be bunk. TMI had only $600 million in insurance. Depending on who you ask, the accident cost $1 or $2 billion. As Dan Quickert pointed out, the power companies refuse to take on the full risk of operating nuclear plants. They demand the government cover part of the risk, and they demand special limited liability, by law. That tells you this industry would not survive on its own. It requires coddling by the government, even more than oil and coal. I do not understand why libertarians like Mitchell Jones are so enthusiastic about it. I think it appeals to his contrarian instincts. Because (some) liberals don't like it, he reflexively endorses it, even though the industry was invented by the government and would not survive without government largess and special dispensation. I myself have mixed feelings about it, as I have made clear. I am not happy to see them build a plant 10 km away from the family house in Yamaguchi, but it is better than a coal or gas fired plant. Wind or solar cannot be used in that part of the world, or in Georgia either. We have no viable alternative energy sources. > >From the sight Terry originally quoted: > > "Fuel cost: > > For a typical 1100 MWe BWR or PWR, the approximate cost of fuel for one > > reload (replacing 1/3 of the core) is about $40 million, based on an > > 18-month refueling cycle." > > > > Since the output power is quoted in MW electric, and the fuel cost is > > given directly, I get a figure of $0.002766 / kWh for nuclear (note that > > only 1/3 of the fuel is replaced every 1800 months, so a full charge > > lasts 4.5 years. . . . Ah, that is an easier method. > > There is also the assumption that there is no "downtime", however it > > seems reasonable to assume that the downtime for both types of plants > > would be about the same. There is more downtime at a nuclear plant, because the whole thing has be shut off periodically for refueling, whereas coal and plants are continuously refueled. There are several turbines at each plant, and they can be individually shut down for maintenance. From time to time a combustion plant has to be taken off line to maintain the boilers and whatnot, but I believe this happens less frequently and takes less time overall than nuclear plant refuelling. Average nuclear plant on-line hours per year have increased in the last 20 years. I guess refuelling time is going down. One thing not often noted is that combustion and nuclear plants require prodigious amounts of water, for cooling, and they discharge hot water, which wreaks havoc. Water is not generally considered pollution, but it should be. Wind power does not require water, except in arid places where the blades are washed occasionally. Even taking this into account, the demand for water is 10,000 times lower per kWh. I believe the mass of steel and concrete required for wind power is 2 or 3 times greater than nuclear or combustion. Steel and concrete are cheap, so this does not matter. The land area required for a nuclear plant is surprisingly high, despite the high power density at the core of the generator. 98% of the land in a wind farm can be used for other purposes, such as farming, housing or wildlife. The power cables are underground. Only the access roads take up space. First generation wind towers were low, noisy and dangerous. The ones they build now produce two or three times more electricity per hectare, and are nearly silent. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 08:48:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA07846; Fri, 4 May 2001 08:47:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:47:35 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010504111001.028ff308@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 11:47:41 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010504092742.0096a3e0@postoffice.swbell.net> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010503094233.00a89468@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010502150245.0288e300@pop.mindspring.com> <3AF06E8B.CB735CC6@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010503094233.00a89468@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"uYGHB1.0.Pw1.Nyiyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42374 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: >This is in so many ways a wonderful technology > >Build them in the north sea build them up the eastern US seaboard. There is not enough wind in the US seaboard to make them cost-effective. The mid-northern section of PA has some viable areas, about 4% of the state. 0.4% of the land could provide about 30% of their electricity. Western Massachusetts has some good areas. See: http://www.eren.doe.gov/state_energy/tech_wind.cfm?state=PA >Build them in the trade winds build them on the islands. >Build them on the hills of central California. >Build them wherever it is safe to do so. >DO NOT build them in Tornado Alley. Are you certain they are more dangerous than silos, billboards, warehouses, or airports? Why should they be? They have much greater structural integrity than most buildings. This objection seems somewhat irrational. Naturally, there is some risk in building any structure, anywhere tornados are common. For that matter, there is considerable risk growing trees. There is a comparable risk of earthquakes on the west coast and in Japan. Many people in Japan oppose construction of tall buildings, nuclear plants, and bridges for fear of earthquakes. This concern is real, but exaggerated, I think. The maximum force from earthquakes and tornadoes can be estimated, and plants can be engineered to withstand it. On the other hand, the 1995 Kobe earthquake damaged elevated highways and Shinkansen railways more than predicted. Most of the people hurt or killed in Kobe were in old, substandard houses. Very few structures built to modern, earthquake resistant codes collapsed. Some modern buildings were condemned after the quake, but they held up well enough during the event to protect the inhabitants. That is the standard the codes are designed to meet. Power plants are supposed to hold up long enough for an orderly, safe shutdown. By the way, the most important protection individuals can take to avoid being hurt in an earthquake is to bolt bookcases and chest of drawers to the wall. I know several people in Kobe and again last month in Yamaguchi who woke up under a pile of furniture and books. This is more dangerous than it sounds. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 08:48:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA08238; Fri, 4 May 2001 08:48:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:48:39 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3AF2B00B.6EAFA8FA@ix.netcom.com> References: <3AF18712.C01F35FB@bellsouth.net> <3AF196A4.DC93C2AE@ix.netcom.com> <3AF2B00B.6EAFA8FA@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:48:48 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: How to make a H-Bomb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"zpn2c2.0.e02.Mziyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42375 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Stroms wrote; >Fortunately, nothing about this description is accurate. It is >rather like my showing you how to build a jet engine using cooling >fans obtained at Sears. The shapes would be roughly similar to the >real thing, but the result would be silly, although not dangerous. >In this case, the problem is that the chemicals are real and deadly. > >In answer to your question, no salad bowl, no matter how thick, will >work. > I understand your reaction to this Ed, you just don't see any humor in H bombs. OTOH, I have an Irish sense of humor. We were doing just fine until the Vikings showed up, they raped the women and stole what they wanted, then they they ruled the country for some time. Later the English (Bloody Brits) came to visit. they did more or less the same thing. Some believe that this accounts for our black sense of humor. I disagree, I think that it comes from an inherent fatalism, and a realization that the world is going to hell in a handbasket and there is nothing that I can do about it. The reason I brought up the salad bowl is I've been wondering how thick the outer jacket of a device is. It can't be very thick because the entire device weights in about about 275 pounds. I came across a commercial stainless steel mixing bowl and was considering how strong the resulting structure would be if I could figure out how to hold the two bowls together. Thomas Mallloy From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 09:27:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25558; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:26:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:26:04 -0700 X-Sent: 4 May 2001 16:25:49 GMT From: "Peter Fred" To: Subject: RE: Peltier and other thermo electric effects in METAL...NOT required to be Semiconductors Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:24:11 -0400 Message-ID: <000901c0d4b6$a7217ce0$cbe01f26@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"6LxfL3.0.GF6.RWjyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42376 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We have a copper-enveloped Peltier device that exhibits an increase or decrease in weight depending on whether the hot side is up or down. We also have an aluminum disc where a ~0.009 N or a ~9 mg drop in weight was observed when it was irradiated with 3000 W of heat. The aluminum disc was cut out of a ~2 x 3'sheet of aluminum that was obtained from a hardwood store. Even with the broad definition of a semiconductor device given below, I do not think that this aluminum disc would fit within this definition. Thus we are faced with the need to explain the anomaly of (1)a weight change with a Peltier device and (2) a weight change with an aluminum disc. We also have the point we are half way aware of that gravity like heat, and unlike electricity and magnetism, is material independent. Nevertheless we stretch our imagination almost to the limit to somehow link weight change to a device that involves electricity scrupulously avoiding the exciting possibility that heat and gravity may be linked. Regards, Peter Fred "Gravitation as resistance to the radial conduction of heat" http://pbfred.tripod.com/ John Schnurer wrote: Dear Folks, Semiconductors are NOT Required to realized Thermo electric effects.... These effects can exhibit themselves in materials systems including but not limited to: a] 2 or more different metals b] a metal and a semiconductor c] a metal and a metal compound d] a metal and a non metal e] two or more non metals f] two samples of the SAME metal ...... g] the same piece of metal in different locations, ie; if you take a piece of wire and bend a loop in it and draw the loop tight to make a "kink" the kinked area is enough different to exhibit a thermo electric current. On Thu, 3 May 2001, Peter Fred wrote: > There are no semiconductors in the copper and aluminum hemisphere's where > Nick and I both observed a change of weight when we applied heat in the > radial direction. I have even applied heat from above to a flat circular > aluminum disc and observed a change of weight. See > http://pbfred.tripod.com/flatforce.htm. > > Recently the circular metal cover was left on the burner of our stove after > the burner was turned on. It was taken off before it completely turned to > brown. However where it browned was at the center at a size of about a > quarter. > > To me this is an indication that most of the rising heat moved to the center > of the cover and there was so much of it that the center was browned. So > when I illuminate the aluminum disc from above with 3000 W I infer that the > heat accumulates rapidly at the center mimicking the same situation Nick > creates with his Pita Peltier device where most of the heat with Nick's > pita-shaped, copper-enveloped Peltier device at least starts off the center > of the copper disc. In these two some what similar incidences a change of > weight was observed. However the incidences were different in that in one > case there were no semiconductors involved. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 11:55:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28260; Fri, 4 May 2001 11:46:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 11:46:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF2EBF6.E9F001CF@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 11:51:09 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: How to make a H-Bomb References: <3AF18712.C01F35FB@bellsouth.net> <3AF196A4.DC93C2AE@ix.netcom.com> <3AF2B00B.6EAFA8FA@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cVHx-.0.Kv6.Xalyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42377 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Ed Stroms wrote; > > >Fortunately, nothing about this description is accurate. It is > >rather like my showing you how to build a jet engine using cooling > >fans obtained at Sears. The shapes would be roughly similar to the > >real thing, but the result would be silly, although not dangerous. > >In this case, the problem is that the chemicals are real and deadly. > > > >In answer to your question, no salad bowl, no matter how thick, will > >work. > > > I understand your reaction to this Ed, you just don't see any humor in H bombs. That is part of the problem. Also I see no humor in something that can cause harm, nuclear or chemical. Much in this world is humorous and I can use the gallows humor about things I can not change. I object to the the description of how to make an A-bomb because it is not humorous, it is not clever, and it is simply irresponsible. It exist only to make the author look clever. > > > OTOH, I have an Irish sense of humor. We were doing just fine until > the Vikings showed up, they raped the women and stole what they > wanted, then they they ruled the country for some time. Later the > English (Bloody Brits) came to visit. they did more or less the same > thing. Some believe that this accounts for our black sense of humor. > I disagree, I think that it comes from an inherent fatalism, and a > realization that the world is going to hell in a handbasket and there > is nothing that I can do about it. I agree, there is little we can do. However, this does not stop me, or you for that matter, from being pissed off. Apparently, some Irish do more than laugh. > > > The reason I brought up the salad bowl is I've been wondering how > thick the outer jacket of a device is. It can't be very thick because > the entire device weights in about about 275 pounds. I came across a > commercial stainless steel mixing bowl and was considering how strong > the resulting structure would be if I could figure out how to hold > the two bowls together. An A bomb must hold together long enough to build up a neutron and X-ray flux and the resulting neutrons need to be reflected back to the fissioning material. As a result, the container is complex. You can forget about using anything you can buy. Fortunately, unless the bomb is designed correctly, only a nasty mess would result, not total distruction - which might be small comfort to someone near by. Ed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 12:35:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA12095; Fri, 4 May 2001 12:20:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:20:57 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:21:00 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: DU weapons feed my black sense of humor Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"EbupN.0.ay2.M4myw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42378 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We have a new radio station here in the land of 10,000 idiot liberals. AM1280 The Patriot has a collection of "communicators" all of whom are fairly conservative. One in particular, Mike Savage of Savage Nation is so far to the right that me makes Rush Limbaugh seem a moderate. Roger Fridenberg comes on next. Wednesday night Roger had an environmental physicist on. This man worked for DOD drawing up protocals for the use of DU weapons. When the military ( bullet heads ) ignored his protocals, which they were congresionally mandated to do, he went public. So they fired him. That's how you handle that kind of shit, if the bastard doesn't know enough to keep his mouth shut, fire him. He was going on about how the the bullet heads have 750,000 tons of DU. How they have been firing them were ever, how women and children in Kosoval have been expressing DU in their urine. The entire interview is available on the Internet, Talk Radio .com I assume. The reason that the Porta Ricians have been raising hell about the shelling on Viagos is because the bullet heads have been shooting off DU weapons down there. The bullet heads responded by gassing protestors with CX gas, and shooting them with rubber bullets, well that's how you handle that kind of shit, I always say. Robert Kennedy Jr. was down there and was subsequently hospitalized with heard palpatations which is one of the known effects of exposure to CX. The point is that what ever weapons they have, the bullet heads manage to shoot them off. Given the nature of the DU subsequent to detonation, talcum powder, It will be spread all over. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 12:35:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15667; Fri, 4 May 2001 12:27:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:27:57 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010504152543.00a89308@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 15:27:40 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: California Energy Commission comments on CF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"99gJf1.0.hq3.xAmyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42379 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.energy.ca.gov/nuclear/overview.html Nuclear Energy (and Nuclear Power in California) QUOTE: The term "cold fusion," as reported in the popular press in recent years, refers to the process of fusing hydrogen nuclei at room temperature. It was allegedly demonstrated in a simple laboratory apparatus in 1989 by Fleischman and Pons. Several experiments have been conducted to try to replicate their work, with limited success. The phenomenon of cold fusion cannot be reproduced on demand and cannot be explained by conventional nuclear physics. Therefore, its commercial potential as an electric generating technology is uncertain. An excellent article on cold fusion recently appeared in Wired Magazine. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 13:02:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29167; Fri, 4 May 2001 12:55:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:55:08 -0700 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 12:51:15 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Question for Ed Storms To: vortex-l Message-id: <3AF30833.5080206@pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en Resent-Message-ID: <"k-ZhE3.0.e77.Ramyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42380 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings, Near the top of anyone's wish list of "earth-shaking experiments that really need to be replicated" is one that you reported on in Infinite Energy 4, #21 (1998) concerning biological nuclear transmutation. A relevant quote "A recent study done in Russia* has added powerful support to the accumulating evidence. In this case, fusion between 55Mn and deuterium to give 57Fe in various yeast and bacteria cultures was demonstrated.... This study is particularly persuasive because it uses a conventional method which is only sensitive to the presence of 57Fe, an isotope easily excluded..." *Vysotskii, V. I., A. A. Kornilova, and I. I. Samoyloylenko, Experimental Discovery of Phenomenon of Low-Energy Nuclear Transformation of Isotopes (Mn55=Fe57) in Growing Biological Cultures", The Sixth International Conference on Cold Fusion, Progress in New Hydrogen Energy, (Ed. M. Okamoto) Oct. 13-18, 1996, Hokkaido, Japan, Vol. 2, page 687. ibid, Infinite Energy 2, #10(1996) 63. Every once in a while I try to go back to items like this and do an updated web search to see if anything has happened since. Nothing turned up on this, which is a little surprising, considering how shocking it would be if true and how easy it should be to replicate. I wonder if you or anyone else on Vortex has any updated information on this. Side note for the microbiologist entrepreneur: 57Fe has is in high demand for its medical uses and is extraordinarily expensive. It is used in Mossbauer spectroscopy and other things. If it could be "harvested" from yeast one could probably have a $mega-buck cottage industry set up in the basement. But of course, why wouldn't the Russians already have thought of that a couple of years ago? Side note for the free energy speculator: there is one (far fringe) report that 57Fe will either "pump" ZPE directly or actually transmute to 56 Fe, sans gamma, sans neutron. It is a bizarre isotope, perhaps but probably not that bizarre. Jones Beene From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 13:24:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07031; Fri, 4 May 2001 13:20:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 13:20:14 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Question for Ed Storms Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 16:25:25 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3AF30833.5080206@pacbell.net> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"8-Lx32.0.Tj1.xxmyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42381 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jones Beene & Ed. This sounds suspiciously like the Kevran work of years back. I always thought someone should replicate this stuff and do it right, guess I wasn't the only one. I remember running some numbers on his chicken transmutations, potassium to calcium with the addition of hydrogen. Standard physics predicts you'd need to fit those feathered dinosaurs out with massive heat sinks and liquid cooling to handle the heat from the level of calcium he claimed. Hmmm... I think the army also did some studies on this. I can check if anyones interested. I was curious about that fringe report you were referring to on the Fe57. Can you provide the ref? K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:51 PM To: vortex-l Subject: Question for Ed Storms Greetings, Near the top of anyone's wish list of "earth-shaking experiments that really need to be replicated" is one that you reported on in Infinite Energy 4, #21 (1998) concerning biological nuclear transmutation. A relevant quote "A recent study done in Russia* has added powerful support to the accumulating evidence. In this case, fusion between 55Mn and deuterium to give 57Fe in various yeast and bacteria cultures was demonstrated.... This study is particularly persuasive because it uses a conventional method which is only sensitive to the presence of 57Fe, an isotope easily excluded..." *Vysotskii, V. I., A. A. Kornilova, and I. I. Samoyloylenko, Experimental Discovery of Phenomenon of Low-Energy Nuclear Transformation of Isotopes (Mn55=Fe57) in Growing Biological Cultures", The Sixth International Conference on Cold Fusion, Progress in New Hydrogen Energy, (Ed. M. Okamoto) Oct. 13-18, 1996, Hokkaido, Japan, Vol. 2, page 687. ibid, Infinite Energy 2, #10(1996) 63. Every once in a while I try to go back to items like this and do an updated web search to see if anything has happened since. Nothing turned up on this, which is a little surprising, considering how shocking it would be if true and how easy it should be to replicate. I wonder if you or anyone else on Vortex has any updated information on this. Side note for the microbiologist entrepreneur: 57Fe has is in high demand for its medical uses and is extraordinarily expensive. It is used in Mossbauer spectroscopy and other things. If it could be "harvested" from yeast one could probably have a $mega-buck cottage industry set up in the basement. But of course, why wouldn't the Russians already have thought of that a couple of years ago? Side note for the free energy speculator: there is one (far fringe) report that 57Fe will either "pump" ZPE directly or actually transmute to 56 Fe, sans gamma, sans neutron. It is a bizarre isotope, perhaps but probably not that bizarre. Jones Beene From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 13:59:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26933; Fri, 4 May 2001 13:56:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 13:56:13 -0700 Message-ID: <00d101c0d4d4$10209560$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "jlsparber" Subject: Re: Solar Energetic Particles (SEPs) & Light Leptons Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:53:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"1JLT32.0.da6.iTnyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42382 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Light Leptons (+/-) could be generated on the Sun from Extreme Ultraviolet (EUV) Photons of 54.4 eV or more and sent to the Earth as "Solar Cosmic Rays" or SEPs with relativistic energies as high as 15 GeV,especially during peak solar flare activity. Since their Relativistic Mass, Mrel = Mo[(E'/Eo) +1] = 1/[1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2 cosmic ray detectors could easily mistake them for regular electrons-positrons or Protons moving very close to c. Might be that the Van Allen Belt is a veritable storehouse for them. Harvested and used as a catalyst in Cold and Hot Fusion the global energy/environmental situation could change for the better. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 14:37:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13922; Fri, 4 May 2001 14:34:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:34:37 -0700 Message-ID: <00e901c0d4d9$6bfcdf60$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "jlsparber" References: Subject: Re: Question for Ed Storms Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 15:32:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"-MHaF1.0.SP3.i1oyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42383 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:25 PM Subject: RE: Question for Ed Storms Hi Keith. The LL- catalyzed reaction: 1, LL- + D+ ---> Neutral D* + energy 2, D* + 25Mn55 ---> 26Fe57 + LL- + 15.6 Mev The 15.6 Mev (2.5 picojoule) LL- with a diameter of ~ 1.0 angstrom can carry off this energy like a bull in a china shop, heating up the surrounding atoms/molecules. Compare this with an alpha particle with a diameter of ~ 10^-7 angstroms. Regards, Frederick > Hi Jones Beene & Ed. > > This sounds suspiciously like the Kevran work of years back. > I always thought someone should replicate this stuff and > do it right, guess I wasn't the only one. > > I remember running some numbers on his chicken transmutations, > potassium to calcium with the addition of hydrogen. Standard > physics predicts you'd need to fit those feathered dinosaurs > out with massive heat sinks and liquid cooling to handle the > heat from the level of calcium he claimed. Hmmm... I think > the army also did some studies on this. I can check if anyones > interested. > > I was curious about that fringe report you were referring to > on the Fe57. Can you provide the ref? > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:51 PM > To: vortex-l > Subject: Question for Ed Storms > > > Greetings, > > Near the top of anyone's wish list of "earth-shaking experiments that really > need to be replicated" is one that you reported on in Infinite Energy 4, > #21 > (1998) concerning biological nuclear transmutation. > > A relevant quote "A recent study done in Russia* has added powerful support > to > the accumulating evidence. In this case, fusion between 55Mn and deuterium > to > give 57Fe in various yeast and bacteria cultures was demonstrated.... This > study > is particularly persuasive because it uses a conventional method which is > only > sensitive to the presence of 57Fe, an isotope easily excluded..." > > *Vysotskii, V. I., A. A. Kornilova, and I. I. Samoyloylenko, Experimental > Discovery of Phenomenon of Low-Energy Nuclear Transformation of Isotopes > (Mn55=Fe57) in Growing Biological Cultures", The Sixth International > Conference > on Cold Fusion, Progress in New Hydrogen Energy, (Ed. M. Okamoto) Oct. > 13-18, > 1996, Hokkaido, Japan, Vol. 2, page 687. ibid, Infinite Energy 2, #10(1996) > 63. > > Every once in a while I try to go back to items like this and do an updated > web > search to see if anything has happened since. Nothing turned up on this, > which > is a little surprising, considering how shocking it would be if true and how > easy it should be to replicate. > > I wonder if you or anyone else on Vortex has any updated information on > this. > > Side note for the microbiologist entrepreneur: 57Fe has is in high demand > for > its medical uses and is extraordinarily expensive. It is used in Mossbauer > spectroscopy and other things. If it could be "harvested" from yeast one > could > probably have a $mega-buck cottage industry set up in the basement. But of > course, why wouldn't the Russians already have thought of that a couple of > years > ago? > > Side note for the free energy speculator: there is one (far fringe) report > that > 57Fe will either "pump" ZPE directly or actually transmute to 56 Fe, sans > gamma, > sans neutron. > > It is a bizarre isotope, perhaps but probably not that bizarre. > > Jones Beene > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 14:41:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14903; Fri, 4 May 2001 14:37:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:37:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF313D8.35FE7804@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 14:41:00 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: California Energy Commission comments on CF References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010504152543.00a89308@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kPMje.0.Xe3.b4oyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42384 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, it looks like someone actually read the Wired article. Now we need a similar publication to bring people up to date about the effect being reproducible and well on its way to an explanation. The uncertainty about its application to commercial heat production is still valid. Ed Storms Jed Rothwell wrote: > http://www.energy.ca.gov/nuclear/overview.html > > Nuclear Energy (and Nuclear Power in California) > > QUOTE: > > The term "cold fusion," as reported in the popular press in recent years, > refers to the process of fusing hydrogen nuclei at room temperature. It was > allegedly demonstrated in a simple laboratory apparatus in 1989 by > Fleischman and Pons. Several experiments have been conducted to try to > replicate their work, with limited success. The phenomenon of cold fusion > cannot be reproduced on demand and cannot be explained by conventional > nuclear physics. Therefore, its commercial potential as an electric > generating technology is uncertain. > > An excellent article on cold fusion recently appeared in Wired Magazine. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 14:56:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23018; Fri, 4 May 2001 14:54:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:54:48 -0700 Message-ID: <003601c0d4da$5096e800$5a181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 13:39:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"J2xIt2.0.Yd5.dKoyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42385 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Dan 3 mile Island was almost a meltdown, GE made lousy reactors and many plants needed to be shut down including Trojan here in Oregon on the mighty Columbia. The Japanese seem to be able to make good Nuke Reactors like they make good cars. We can't seem to make either good reactors or cars. Cheers Bruce Meland editor www.electrifyingtimes.com -----Original Message----- From: Dan Quickert To: 'vortex-l@eskimo.com' Date: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:06 PM Subject: RE: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper >Mitchell, you seem to presume that my references to safety and accidents >are references to a catastrophic failure of the reactor core or some such. > >First: however small the likelihood of such an accident, the consequences >of such an event are unacceptable. Please refer to any basic statistics >textbook: just because the probability of an event is extremely low, >doesn't mean that it will _not_ happen in any given instance. In "a sane >society" when there are alternatives to unacceptable risks, the risk is not >taken. That is why commercial nuclear power would not even exist if the >risk were not subsidized by the government, via regulated limits of >liability. In your vaulted "free society" without regulation, no sane >private venture would own a nuclear plant because they would not assume >that risk -- just as no private venture assumes the full risk now. > >And more to my point: catastrophic failure, and indeed accidents at the >generating site, are not the only type of nuclear accidents. To argue it as >such is ludicrous. There are myriad points along the line, from mining >through processing, use, transport, and disposal, that present >opportunities for release and dispersal of materials -- and not just the >primary materials, but everything that came into contact with them. And >such dispersal may not be apparent to persons affected by it (on the other >hand, you know it when you've had coal or oil or too much sun dumped on >your lawn). Indeed, "accidents" may not even take on the classical >attributes that we normally associate with the term - for example there are >possible accidents of accounting and recordkeeping, where contaminated >metals may inadvertently get routed into stocks of metals that are presumed >to be uncontaminated. > >The same goes for security: an attack on a nuclear plant is a nice straw >man to knock down, but that does not cover the wide range of opportunities >and types of security risks throughout the system. The 'benefit' of being >more concentrated doesn't look so good here -- if a ton of coal is stolen, >so what? But with a pound of uranium, plutonium, or even associated >contaminated objects, an irresponsible or unknowing thief could do >immeasureable harm. > >It appears to me that the only way one can make nuclear energy seem safe is >to reduce the discussion to soundbite arguments and ignore any complexity >to the issue. Accuracy includes comprehensiveness. Having said that, you >can have the last word now, this is quite off-topic so I'm done with this >one for now. > >Dan Quickert > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 16:51:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA32722; Fri, 4 May 2001 16:50:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 16:50:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:41:35 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: RE: Question for Ed Storms To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: jonesb9@pacbell.net Message-id: <0GCU00LRP4HHD5@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Opera 5.11 build 904 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Resent-Message-ID: <"DoeVm2.0.C_7.U1qyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42386 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >Standard physics predicts you'd need to fit those feathered dinosaurs >out with massive heat sinks and liquid cooling to handle the >heat from the level of calcium he claimed. Yeah. If either you or Fred is correct on the heat flow, then it won't be long before someone uses this as the explanation for those "algae mats" on Mars... >the army also did some studies on this. I can check if anyones interested. Hey why not. >I was curious about that fringe report you were referring to >on the Fe57. Can you provide the ref? This was in regard to the Meyer-Mace French patent #FR9110472, which some Czech inventors claimed to have duplicated a while back. Someone on another forum suggested that a better explanation than the inventors claim of 56Fe > 54Fe is 57Fe acting as like a Mossbauer emitter but at NMR frequencies. Both suggestions are utterly too far out there to even venture a comment on... Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 17:12:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA07737; Fri, 4 May 2001 17:10:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 17:10:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF344C0.C0519EE3@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 17:09:36 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for May 04, 2001] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VKYB9.0.pu1.tJqyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42387 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for May 04, 2001 Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 17:19:48 -0400 (EDT) From: "What's New" To: aki@ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 4 May 01 Washington, DC 1. SCIENCE POLICY: THE WEEKLY DISASTER REPORT. The science community seemed to lapse into a sullen silence after the Bush administration announced missile and energy initiatives that would have led to cries of outrage in the past. There is still no White House Science Advisor. Anyone chosen now will presumably support these new policies; that's unlikely to make the science community happy. 2. ENERGY: VICE-PRESIDENT CHENEY ANNOUNCES ENERGY STRATEGY. What would you expect two Texas oilmen to come up with? Exactly. The Vice-President, speaking in Toronto on Monday, explained that energy policy will emphasize production. Oh, conservation may be "a personal virtue," he said, but it won't solve the problem: "Americans demand more energy." So clean coal technology, drilling in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, and even nuclear energy, are part of the strategy, but there will be no talk of renewables or efforts to reduce reliance on SUVs. By the end of the week, however, conservation made a weak comeback. The President yesterday directed Federal agencies in California to reduce energy consumption. Conservation, it seems, is quick. 3. STAR WARS II: PRESIDENT CALLS FOR A GLOBAL MISSILE SHIELD. And he wants it in space, in the air, at sea and on land. The threat of attack by third world crazies was cited as creating an urgent need for such a defense. Let's see, we have spent $100B or so already to develop such a system. What we learned is that, if the enemy will put homing beacons on their missiles, we might stop one out of three. But an Administration spokesman explained that the defense doesn't really have to work, it only has to create uncertainty. Well, it certainly does that. Even if it could be made to work, it would only guarantee that a different delivery system, such as a Ryder Rental truck, would be used 4. LOW NOTE: KEYNOTE SPEAKER LEAVES AAAS MEETING IN A HURRY. Larry Lindsey, Economic Policy Advisor to the President, was the Keynote speaker at the AAAS Science Policy Meeting. He warned that the Kyoto protocol could damage our collective prosperity and does little to promote development of new energy technology. But of course, it was the Administration that slashed the renewables and energy efficiency budgets by 50%. Lindsey left hurriedly following his talk, without taking questions. 5. NASA SURVIVORS: HAS GOLDIN BEEN VOTED OFF THE ISLAND? It is rumored that the White House has hired a headhunter to find a replacement for Dan Goldin as NASA Administrator. Goldin is the only high-level survivor of the last Republican Administration. Meanwhile, high-tech bungee jumper Dennis Tito's stomach problems have hogged the news all week, making one wonder if too much disposable income isn't becoming a problem. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's, and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 17:47:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA23532; Fri, 4 May 2001 17:47:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 17:47:24 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:44:26 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: The Tunguska "Event" Resent-Message-ID: <"y5DAP2.0.Vl5.Rsqyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42388 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is something interesting: "Tunguska Event. A gigantic explosion that occurred at about 7:17 a.m. on June 30, 1908 in the basin of the River Podkamennaya Tunguska, Central Siberia. Devastation rained over an area 80 km in diameter and eye witnesses up to 500 km away saw in a cloudless sky the flight and explosion of a blindingly bright pale blue bolide. The sound of the explosion reverberated thousands of kilometers away, the explosion air wave recorded on microbarographs going twice round the world. The main explosion had an energy of 5X10^16 joules and occurred at an altitude of 8.5 km. It was caused by the disintegration of an incoming object, most likely a Fragile Apollo asteroid or a small comet nucleus. When the object encountered the earth it would have been coming from a point in the dawn sky comparitively close to the sun and would thus have been most difficult to detect and observe." [*The Facts on File Dictionary of Astronomy*, pg. 469] A megaton (MT) is defined as 10^15 calories, which is 4.185x10^15 joules. Thus the magnitude of the above described explosion was 11.95 MT! Will somebody please explain how the disintegration of a natural object can result in the sudden release of that much energy? --Mitchell Jones ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 17:57:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA26454; Fri, 4 May 2001 17:56:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 17:56:51 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Ornithopter! Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 17:56:33 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c0d4fe$3b4b34a0$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"mqcQk1.0.CT6.J_qyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42389 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch, Great reply however this thread was turned from ornithopter to Nuclear fission. You are correct, thousands of megawatts are safely delivered to your light bulb every day around the world with nuclear power. Nuclear power propulsion is the only means we can tour and develop the solar system for space exploration. Even if laser implosion fusion comes about as in some science fiction novels, you still have a risk no matter what you do. Here in the Pacific Northwest the environmentalist waco's want us to send the water down the river for the fish at the cost of power and farming, so they never thought our power bill would go up. When the dam's were designed, the fish were not accounted for , so instead of designing FISH ladders out of concrete, they want to tear down some free gravity energy electrical generators. Go figure. Matt -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones@jump.net] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:14 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Ornithopter! >Matthew Rogers wrote: > >All the issues I have seen used both in this discussion group and on the >>world news as a BAD example of science, actually are not bad science, but >>some idiot who was promoted past his level of competence, pushing a button >>without reading the manual, or making a decision without an understanding of >>the truth. >> >>Chernobyl.. >>Three mile Island. >>The space shuttle >>The latest sinking oil platform in south America > >A machine which can be destroyed by "some idiot" pushing "a button" is >badly designed. I do not know much about Chernobyl, but the Three Mile >Island (TMI) accident was caused by bad human engineering. In particular, >many vital instruments hid the truth instead of displaying it. This is not >bad science, but it is bad engineering. > >Since the TMI accident, major improvements have been power plant human >factors engineering, so another accident of a similar nature is unlikely. >However, as Ed Storms points out, fission is inherently dangerous. ***{Energy is dangerous stuff. Result: all forms of power generation are "inherently dangerous." Thus relative safety is the only criterion by which alternative systems of power generation can be compared, and, on that basis, fission is *by far* the safest of them all. The reason: it is the most concentrated power source now known. That means there is far more energy concentrated in a pound of uranium than in a pound of coal, or oil, or gasoline, etc. Result: to generate a megawatt of electricity, far fewer persons are exposed to accidents in extraction, transportation, refining, consumption, and disposal of waste, for nuclear, than for any other power source. Result: fewer accidents, and fewer deaths. (For vast detail on this topic, see *The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear*, by Dr. Petr Beckmann.) --MJ}*** It is >better than coal, but still not good enough. Every expert in fission I have >ever heard from would agree with Ed. ***{Then you must not get out much. For an alternative opinion, ask Dr. Edward Teller what he has to say on the subject, or Dr. Bernard Cohen, or a multitude of others. Nobody who knows much about the actual comparative risks of fission and other power sources goes around hinting that fission power plants are less safe than the alternatives. Unfortunately, technophobes on the left, who are the most addle-brained elitist dupes around, have been beating the drums against fission power for decades, and the average person's opinions on this topic are utterly wrong as a result. But, hey, where's the surprise in that, right? :-) --MJ}*** >- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 18:41:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA08221; Fri, 4 May 2001 18:37:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 18:37:05 -0700 Message-ID: <012501c0d4fb$5204cce0$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "jlsparber" References: Subject: Re: The Tunguska "Event" Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:34:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ApOt31.0.N02.1bryw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42390 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitchell Jones" To: Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 7:44 PM Subject: The Tunguska "Event" Mitchell Jones wrote. > Here is something interesting: > > "Tunguska Event. A gigantic explosion that occurred at about 7:17 a.m. on > June 30, 1908 in the basin of the River Podkamennaya Tunguska, Central > Siberia. Devastation rained over an area 80 km in diameter and eye > witnesses up to 500 km away saw in a cloudless sky the flight and explosion > of a blindingly bright pale blue bolide. The sound of the explosion > reverberated thousands of kilometers away, the explosion air wave recorded > on microbarographs going twice round the world. The main explosion had an > energy of 5X10^16 joules and occurred at an altitude of 8.5 km. It was > caused by the disintegration of an incoming object, most likely a Fragile > Apollo asteroid or a small comet nucleus. When the object encountered the > earth it would have been coming from a point in the dawn sky comparitively > close to the sun and would thus have been most difficult to detect and > observe." [*The Facts on File Dictionary of Astronomy*, pg. 469] > > A megaton (MT) is defined as 10^15 calories, which is 4.185x10^15 joules. > Thus the magnitude of the above described explosion was 11.95 MT! > > Will somebody please explain how the disintegration of a natural object can > result in the sudden release of that much energy? How about a 40,000 tonne "dirty snowball" sandy comet moving at the typical comet speed of 50 Km/sec? K.E. = 5x10^16 = 1/2mv^2 At a tonne/meter^3 it would only have to be about 45 meters in diameter. Then it would flash into steam and the added shock wave from the collapse of this steam bubble added to the atmospheric shock wave would help level the forest. :-) Regards, Frederick > > --Mitchell Jones > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 20:49:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA18983; Fri, 4 May 2001 20:46:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 20:46:35 -0700 Message-ID: <20010505034628.58834.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 20:46:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <003601c0d4da$5096e800$5a181ad8@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"9AYcV1.0.Xe4.RUtyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42391 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bruce Meland wrote: > Hi Dan 3 mile Island was almost a meltdown, GE made lousy reactors and many > plants needed to be shut down including Trojan here in Oregon on the mighty > Columbia. The Japanese seem to be able to make good Nuke Reactors like they > make good cars. We can't seem to make either good reactors or cars. Cheers > Bruce Meland editor www.electrifyingtimes.com Hmmmmm. Bruce had better check his facts. The 3 Mile Island reactor was not a GE product. It was built by one of the minor nuclear power reactor companies, I forget which one. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 4 22:37:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA14319; Fri, 4 May 2001 22:35:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 22:35:56 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 01:42:20 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Michael Schaffer cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Cars ....... Safer and Cheaper In-Reply-To: <20010505034628.58834.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"HbHux3.0.aV3.y4vyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42392 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We make some NICE cars: Checker Dodge Dart Ford Falcon Ford Fairlane Impala ... zoom Many of the cars we used as Highway Patrol cars can, did, and do, Flat Get it..... Fury ... with a Heavy Duty Drive Train ...... On Fri, 4 May 2001, Michael Schaffer wrote: > Bruce Meland wrote: > > Hi Dan 3 mile Island was almost a meltdown, GE made lousy reactors and many > > plants needed to be shut down including Trojan here in Oregon on the mighty > > Columbia. The Japanese seem to be able to make good Nuke Reactors like they > > make good cars. We can't seem to make either good reactors or cars. Cheers > > Bruce Meland editor www.electrifyingtimes.com > > > Hmmmmm. Bruce had better check his facts. The 3 Mile Island reactor was not a > GE product. It was built by one of the minor nuclear power reactor companies, I > forget which one. > > > > ===== > Michael J. Schaffer > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 01:25:56 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA12756; Sat, 5 May 2001 01:25:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 01:25:12 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 04:31:36 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l Subject: Missed one ... Remediation Of Radioactive materials DRY Process In-Reply-To: <3AF30833.5080206@pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"F9Xlr2.0.E73.dZxyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42393 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 4 May 2001, Jones Beene wrote: > Greetings, > > Near the top of anyone's wish list of "earth-shaking experiments that really > need to be replicated" 4,961,880 Wm. Barker. Here is a simple non mega buck experiment that is conducted using a standard High Voltage Generator. The process is DRY... no water or other liquid. It works. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 02:02:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA18106; Sat, 5 May 2001 02:01:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 02:01:50 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 05:08:14 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: 2 Ornithopters In-Reply-To: <000a01c0d4fe$3b4b34a0$1f962640@bear> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"MtKfY3.0.lQ4.z5yyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42394 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: But I have only seen 2 kinds of Ornithopter models. One was a kind of cheapo plastic one that was REALLY frantic in its flapping... but did fly, about 3 years ago... and one about 1960, in Paris, very much more quiet and slower.....wood and paper..... both used elastic bands to store energy. any energy store suggestions? Hey folks..... any good Ornithopter designs or buyables? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 02:19:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA21319; Sat, 5 May 2001 02:19:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 02:19:20 -0700 Message-ID: <014101c0d53b$e5cd5600$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "jlsparber" References: Subject: Re: Missed one ... Remediation Of Radioactive materials DRY Process Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 03:17:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"-UvmW2.0.1D5.OMyyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42395 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > On Fri, 4 May 2001, Jones Beene wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > > Near the top of anyone's wish list of "earth-shaking experiments that really > > need to be replicated" > > 4,961,880 Wm. Barker. > > > > Here is a simple non mega buck experiment that is conducted using > a standard High Voltage Generator. > > The process is DRY... no water or other liquid. It is NOT DRY as long as atmospheric water vapor (humidity)can be ionized due to Corona where the belt enters the van de Graaff sphere: Atmospheric H2O ---> H+ + OH- Then, H+ + LL- ---> Neutral H* 2, H* + Radioisotope ---> "Remediate" + LL- + Mev > > It works. > Of Course. :-) Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 03:31:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA32668; Sat, 5 May 2001 03:31:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 03:31:13 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 06:37:30 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Frederick Sparber cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, jlsparber Subject: Re: Missed one ... Remediation Of Radioactive materials DRY Process In-Reply-To: <014101c0d53b$e5cd5600$ba8f85ce@computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"nfAo02.0.L-7.mPzyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42396 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, In general the replications we have performed, and the original work by Barker were dry. In both cases the radioactive material is sealed in plastic. In the case of the local replication we did not employ the belt but used a bench supply. The point is... no solutions. No giant accelerators. Our supply was a little less than 40 KV. The exposure to the field is for 12 to 16 hours. There is one exposure... one time... only... once...period. The balance of the process occurs naturally. One only has to wait. In out case, 11 months. for more accurate data, mathmatics governing the process, please see the patent. Fred's comment comes from making a supposition and not form contacting the inventor or doing the work. I did both. I am not faulting the person... I do fault the different between fact and "I suppose".... Or, rather.... we should try to make sure we are all very clear on the difference. So... no fault....BIG difference. This is a very special, simple, important method that has been over looked for far too long. I bring it up periodically because it is important. We did contact the investigators, replicated the work with inside information and the method works. If you CAREFULLY follow the patent ... it will work. I remember one account of a group who WRAPPED the sample in metal and then wondered why a method based on electric field gradient might not have worked. Another party simply connected the sample to a generator with a wire with the sample in a metal container. The first party has NEVER expressed a desire to try again. The second party has been grateful to know there has been a replication and is glad to know there is a more effective way to do the experiment and, on re reading the patent understands the probable reason for the first leck of useful effects. The first party is in the US... and this is not importantto them, even though they often post about remediation and energy... the second party is near the former Soviet Republic and this is VERY important to them. J On Sat, 5 May 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > On Fri, 4 May 2001, Jones Beene wrote: > > > > > Greetings, > > > > > > Near the top of anyone's wish list of "earth-shaking experiments that really > > > need to be replicated" > > > > 4,961,880 Wm. Barker. > > > > > > > > Here is a simple non mega buck experiment that is conducted using > > a standard High Voltage Generator. > > > > The process is DRY... no water or other liquid. > > It is NOT DRY as long as atmospheric water vapor (humidity)can be ionized due to > Corona where the belt enters the van de Graaff sphere: > > Atmospheric H2O ---> H+ + OH- > > Then, H+ + LL- ---> Neutral H* > > 2, H* + Radioisotope ---> "Remediate" + LL- + Mev > > > > It works. > > > Of Course. :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 04:10:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA06437; Sat, 5 May 2001 03:59:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 03:59:57 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 07:06:21 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Peter Fred cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Peltier and other thermo electric effects in METAL...NOT required to be Semiconductors In-Reply-To: <000901c0d4b6$a7217ce0$cbe01f26@default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"M_sIx3.0.Va1.jqzyw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42397 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When you run this test is it possible to feel ANY heating on the outside of the device at all? If the answer is yes then you should do a run wherein the entire set up is completely thermally insulated. What steps have you taken to account for the effects of the wires feeding current to the devices? Have you measurde the current and changed for a resistor of the same current and done the tests? Have you done the tests and taken two PE coolers and made two cool sides out? After you make the copper enclosed device as usual.... make two of them.... now put two together cold out ... and the warm out.... What happens with the warm side to the East? Cold side to the East? How far away is the this doing the measure of the weight? Is it at least 3 feet away? On Fri, 4 May 2001, Peter Fred wrote: > We have a copper-enveloped Peltier device that exhibits an increase or > decrease in weight depending on whether the hot side is up or down. We also > have an aluminum disc where a ~0.009 N or a ~9 mg drop in weight was > observed when it was irradiated with 3000 W of heat. > > The aluminum disc was cut out of a ~2 x 3'sheet of aluminum that was > obtained from a hardwood store. Even with the broad definition of a > semiconductor device given below, I do not think that this aluminum disc > would fit within this definition. > > Thus we are faced with the need to explain the anomaly of (1)a weight > change with a Peltier device and (2) a weight change with an aluminum disc. > We also have the point we are half way aware of that gravity like heat, and > unlike electricity and magnetism, is material independent. > > Nevertheless we stretch our imagination almost to the limit to somehow link > weight change to a device that involves electricity scrupulously avoiding > the exciting possibility that heat and gravity may be linked. > > Regards, > > > Peter Fred > > "Gravitation as resistance to the radial conduction of heat" > > http://pbfred.tripod.com/ > > > > > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > Dear Folks, > > > > Semiconductors are NOT Required to realized Thermo electric > effects.... > These effects can exhibit themselves in materials systems > including but not limited to: > > a] 2 or more different metals > b] a metal and a semiconductor > c] a metal and a metal compound > d] a metal and a non metal > e] two or more non metals > f] two samples of the SAME metal ...... > g] the same piece of metal in different locations, ie; > > if you take a piece of wire and bend a loop in it and > draw the loop tight to make a "kink" the kinked area is enough different > to exhibit a thermo electric current. > > > > > On Thu, 3 May 2001, Peter Fred wrote: > > > There are no semiconductors in the copper and aluminum hemisphere's where > > Nick and I both observed a change of weight when we applied heat in the > > radial direction. I have even applied heat from above to a flat circular > > aluminum disc and observed a change of weight. See > > http://pbfred.tripod.com/flatforce.htm. > > > > Recently the circular metal cover was left on the burner of our stove > after > > the burner was turned on. It was taken off before it completely turned to > > brown. However where it browned was at the center at a size of about a > > quarter. > > > > To me this is an indication that most of the rising heat moved to the > center > > of the cover and there was so much of it that the center was browned. So > > when I illuminate the aluminum disc from above with 3000 W I infer that > the > > heat accumulates rapidly at the center mimicking the same situation Nick > > creates with his Pita Peltier device where most of the heat with Nick's > > pita-shaped, copper-enveloped Peltier device at least starts off the > center > > of the copper disc. In these two some what similar incidences a change of > > weight was observed. However the incidences were different in that in one > > case there were no semiconductors involved. > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 06:33:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA05923; Sat, 5 May 2001 06:30:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 06:30:37 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c0d55d$106e1ae0$8b181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 05:15:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"94q3k1.0.RS1.y10zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42398 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good; That is at least two US companys that made lousy reactors. If you read the the my lousy sentence again it dosn't exactly inferr that GE made the 3 mi island reactors only that in my neck of the woods,which I am familiar with, Trojan used GE reactors and also in many more nuke plants around the world and that division of GE essentially went bankrupt due to the zillions of lawsuits against them, and got into the broadcasting propaganda usiness. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Schaffer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:51 PM Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper >Bruce Meland wrote: >> Hi Dan 3 mile Island was almost a meltdown, GE made lousy reactors and many >> plants needed to be shut down including Trojan here in Oregon on the mighty >> Columbia. The Japanese seem to be able to make good Nuke Reactors like they >> make good cars. We can't seem to make either good reactors or cars. Cheers >> Bruce Meland editor www.electrifyingtimes.com > > >Hmmmmm. Bruce had better check his facts. The 3 Mile Island reactor was not a >GE product. It was built by one of the minor nuclear power reactor companies, I >forget which one. > > > >===== >Michael J. Schaffer > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 07:51:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA24967; Sat, 5 May 2001 07:50:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 07:50:47 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0d568$41dea800$a5181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: , "John Schnurer" , "Remy C." , , , "Debbie Foch" Subject: Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 06:05:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"kpUbl.0.166.7D1zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42399 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mathew; Maybe you should listen to Dr Steven Greer's Press Conference on May 9th at the National Press Club(coordinator@cseti.org) where he will have ex high up govt and military types come forward to testify how the CIA has covered up these advanced energy and propulsion technologies for reasons of national security.According to Dr Greer we have this technology in our antigravity craft now stationed at Pine Gap as well as sattelites with particle beam weaponry(Tesla Technology the OSS confisicated from his residence when he died that have already shot down foreign objects and UFO's. Present Anti- ABM treaty posturing is just political B.S. Also to get up to speed on these advanced propulsion technologies, Area 51 type stuff,. that go far beyond nuclear, and much cheaper cleaner check out our web site www.electrifyingtimes.com where we are announcing nutrino amplification technologies that will make solar and wind power obsolite.(Nutrinovoltaic device that weighs10 lb(half the size of a telephone book) and puts out 1200 watts). Only problem right now is the national security issues and not patentable status of these devices that convert nutrinos to electricity; and supression=raids of Tesla type inventor labs that have found lost Tesla notes and patents, ect. Also there is a surplus of ag products here in the NW with grain unions and most other ag products in the tank(farmers going bankrupt) and recent circuit court ruling will require farmers to to be compensated for taking of their water and with the electricity rebates. the farmers will make more money not growing crops that are below the cost of production and will make some money for a change. This program will also reduce feed and food supplies, hence better prices for the Columbia and Thule Lake farmers in another year, when hopefully water supplies will be more abundant. Cheers Bruce Meland, editor Electrifying Times -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Rogers To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:57 PM Subject: RE: Ornithopter! >Mitch, > Great reply however this thread was turned from ornithopter to Nuclear >fission. >You are correct, thousands of megawatts are safely delivered to your light >bulb every day around the world with nuclear power. > >Nuclear power propulsion is the only means we can tour and develop the solar >system for space exploration. Even if laser implosion fusion comes about as >in some science fiction novels, you still have a risk no matter what you do. > >Here in the Pacific Northwest the environmentalist waco's want us to send >the water down the river for the fish at the cost of power and farming, so >they never thought our power bill would go up. > >When the dam's were designed, the fish were not accounted for , so instead >of designing FISH ladders out of concrete, they want to tear down some free >gravity energy electrical generators. > >Go figure. > >Matt > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones@jump.net] >Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:14 PM >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: RE: Ornithopter! > >>Matthew Rogers wrote: >> >>All the issues I have seen used both in this discussion group and on the >>>world news as a BAD example of science, actually are not bad science, but >>>some idiot who was promoted past his level of competence, pushing a button >>>without reading the manual, or making a decision without an understanding >of >>>the truth. >>> >>>Chernobyl.. >>>Three mile Island. >>>The space shuttle >>>The latest sinking oil platform in south America >> >>A machine which can be destroyed by "some idiot" pushing "a button" is >>badly designed. I do not know much about Chernobyl, but the Three Mile >>Island (TMI) accident was caused by bad human engineering. In particular, >>many vital instruments hid the truth instead of displaying it. This is not >>bad science, but it is bad engineering. >> >>Since the TMI accident, major improvements have been power plant human >>factors engineering, so another accident of a similar nature is unlikely. >>However, as Ed Storms points out, fission is inherently dangerous. > >***{Energy is dangerous stuff. Result: all forms of power generation are >"inherently dangerous." Thus relative safety is the only criterion by which >alternative systems of power generation can be compared, and, on that >basis, fission is *by far* the safest of them all. The reason: it is the >most concentrated power source now known. That means there is far more >energy concentrated in a pound of uranium than in a pound of coal, or oil, >or gasoline, etc. Result: to generate a megawatt of electricity, far fewer >persons are exposed to accidents in extraction, transportation, refining, >consumption, and disposal of waste, for nuclear, than for any other power >source. Result: fewer accidents, and fewer deaths. (For vast detail on this >topic, see *The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear*, by Dr. Petr >Beckmann.) --MJ}*** > >It is >>better than coal, but still not good enough. Every expert in fission I have >>ever heard from would agree with Ed. > >***{Then you must not get out much. For an alternative opinion, ask Dr. >Edward Teller what he has to say on the subject, or Dr. Bernard Cohen, or a >multitude of others. Nobody who knows much about the actual comparative >risks of fission and other power sources goes around hinting that fission >power plants are less safe than the alternatives. Unfortunately, >technophobes on the left, who are the most addle-brained elitist dupes >around, have been beating the drums against fission power for decades, and >the average person's opinions on this topic are utterly wrong as a result. >But, hey, where's the surprise in that, right? :-) --MJ}*** > >>- Jed > >________________ >Quote of the month: > >"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only >exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from >the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the >candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the >result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always >followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 07:52:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA25237; Sat, 5 May 2001 07:51:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 07:51:51 -0700 Message-ID: <016301c0d56a$591d0e60$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Power Line Waste Remediation. Was Something Else. Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 08:48:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"5dWt2.0.FA6.6E1zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42400 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There you are, Mr. Beene. Put the fission reactor wastes in plastic-wrapped trays suspended from power lines. The power line corona, and radwaste alphas, betas, and gammas will release the Hydrogen from the plastic (CxHy etc) and allow the LLs from the atmosphere to form the Neutral H* and Walla! Two birds with one stone. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 08:05:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27921; Sat, 5 May 2001 07:59:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 07:59:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF40811.134FA358@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 08:03:11 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Question for Ed Storms References: <3AF30833.5080206@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"j6B6i.0.Bq6.DL1zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42401 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To all who are interested and open minded, Thanks for your question. Biological induced nuclear reactions are the most difficult to understand and to believe. Kervran [1] published many articles and books on the subject beginning in 1957 and was completely ignored by "normal" science, except in France. Now his claims are being completely supported by work using modern analytical methods. A scientist in Japan [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] started the process to duplicate the claims and published the results first in France. He used modern analytical methods to study eight different biological cultures of bacteria and yeast. The cultures were made deficient in either K, Mg, Ca, or Fe. The growing cells were found to make the deficient element from the other elements present. The following reactions were proposed: Na23 + O16 = K39 Na23 + H = Mg24 K39 + H = Ca40 Mg24 + O16 = Ca40 Si28 + C12 = Ca40 Later, Russian workers started a similar study. [7] [8] [9] [10] This team first made cultures of three different bacillus and one yeast, all of which could live in D2O as well as in H2O. The cultures were made to be free of iron, but contained a small amount of MnSO4. After a suitable time, the presence of Fe57 was measured using the Mossbauer effect. Fe57 was only detected when D2O was present in the cultures. The proposed reaction is Mn55 +D = Fe57. The rate of grown was measured and was calculated to give no more than 50 mW to the growing media. Of course, the culture containing H2O would be expected to make Fe56 which would be invisible to the Mossbauer method. It is interesting that Kervran [1] published a study over forty years ago in which MnSO4 placed in a growing culture made iron oxide that was easily visible. Naturally, this work was ignored. The Russians have filed a patent for the process. The team has now explored the reaction Na23 + P31 = Fe54. A time of flight mass spectrometer was used to determine the concentrations of reactants and product. They found that a culture made deficient in iron would generate iron using Na and P when these elements were present. Naturally, this work has not been published in a easily obtained journal in the US. 1. Kervran, C.L., Biological Transmutation. 1980: Beekman Publishers, Inc. 2. Komaki, H. Observations on the Biological Cold Fusion or the Biological Transformation of Elements. in Third International Conference on Cold Fusion, "Frontiers of Cold Fusion". 1992. Nagoya Japan: Universal Academy Press, Inc., Tokyo, Japan. 3. Komaki, H. An Approach to the Probable Mechanism of the Non-Radioactive Biological Cold Fusion or So-Called Kervran Effect (Part 2). in Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1993. Lahaina, Maui: Electric Power Research Institute 3412 Hillview Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. 4. Komaki, H., production de proteins par 29 souches de microorganismes et augmentation du potassium en milieu de culture sodique sans potassium. Revue de Pathologie Comparee, 1967. 67: p. 213. 5. Komaki, H., Formation de protines et variations minerales par des microorganismes en milieu de culture, sort avec or sans potassium, sort avec ou sans phosphore. Revue de Pathologie Comparee, 1969. 69: p. 83. 6. Komaki, H. and C.L. Kervran. Experiences de Komaki, Premiere Serie de Recherches. in Preuves en biologie de transmutations a faible energie. 1975. maloine, S. A. , Paris. 7. Vysotskii, V., A.A. Kornilova, and I.I. Samoylenko, Experimental discovery and investigation of the phenomenon of nuclear transmutation of isotopes in growing biological cultures. Infinite Energy, 1996. 2(10): p. 63. 8. Vysotskii, V.I., A.A. Kornilova, and I.I. Samoyloylenko. Experimental discovery of phenomenon of low-energy nuclear transformation of isotopes (Mn55=Fe57) in growing biological cultures. in Sixth International Conference on Cold Fusion, Progress in New Hydrogen Energy. 1996. Lake Toya, Hokkaido, Japan: New Energy and Industrial Technology Development Organization, Tokyo Institute of Technology, Tokyo, Japan. 9. Vysotskii, V., et al. Experimental Observation and Study of Comtrolled Transmutation of Intermediate Mass Isotopes in Growing Biological Cultures. in 8th International Conference on Cold Fusion. 2000. Lerici (La Spezia), Italy: Italian Physical Society, Bologna, Italy. 10. Vysotskii, V., et al., Observation and mass-spectrometry. Study of controlled transmutation of intermediate mass isotopes in growing biological cultures. Infinite Energy, 2001. 6(36): p. 64. Regards, Ed Storms Jones Beene wrote: > Greetings, > > Near the top of anyone's wish list of "earth-shaking experiments that really > need to be replicated" is one that you reported on in Infinite Energy 4, #21 > (1998) concerning biological nuclear transmutation. > > A relevant quote "A recent study done in Russia* has added powerful support to > the accumulating evidence. In this case, fusion between 55Mn and deuterium to > give 57Fe in various yeast and bacteria cultures was demonstrated.... This study > is particularly persuasive because it uses a conventional method which is only > sensitive to the presence of 57Fe, an isotope easily excluded..." > > *Vysotskii, V. I., A. A. Kornilova, and I. I. Samoyloylenko, Experimental > Discovery of Phenomenon of Low-Energy Nuclear Transformation of Isotopes > (Mn55=Fe57) in Growing Biological Cultures", The Sixth International Conference > on Cold Fusion, Progress in New Hydrogen Energy, (Ed. M. Okamoto) Oct. 13-18, > 1996, Hokkaido, Japan, Vol. 2, page 687. ibid, Infinite Energy 2, #10(1996) 63. > > Every once in a while I try to go back to items like this and do an updated web > search to see if anything has happened since. Nothing turned up on this, which > is a little surprising, considering how shocking it would be if true and how > easy it should be to replicate. > > I wonder if you or anyone else on Vortex has any updated information on this. > > Side note for the microbiologist entrepreneur: 57Fe has is in high demand for > its medical uses and is extraordinarily expensive. It is used in Mossbauer > spectroscopy and other things. If it could be "harvested" from yeast one could > probably have a $mega-buck cottage industry set up in the basement. But of > course, why wouldn't the Russians already have thought of that a couple of years > ago? > > Side note for the free energy speculator: there is one (far fringe) report that > 57Fe will either "pump" ZPE directly or actually transmute to 56 Fe, sans gamma, > sans neutron. > > It is a bizarre isotope, perhaps but probably not that bizarre. > > Jones Beene From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 09:12:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15234; Sat, 5 May 2001 09:11:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 09:11:36 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 11:51:58 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29.2] Content-Type: text/plain References: <006201c0ca76$820cc300$c9b4bfa8@computer> In-Reply-To: <006201c0ca76$820cc300$c9b4bfa8@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01050512141900.01885@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA15194 Resent-Message-ID: <"1oaS-1.0.sj3.tO2zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42402 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Recently, astronomers have discovered that expansion of the Universe is increasing. > > The speed of light is given as c = 1/(uo*eo)^1/2 where uo is 4(pi)x10^-7 henry/ meter > and eo = 8.85x10^-12 farad/meter. > > Since expansion of the Universe makes Space more tenuous, permeability uo and > permittivity eo decrease and c becomes greater. > > Thus, since E = mc^2 , m = E/c^2 so an increase in c dictates that mass m Must > Decrease, thus conserving > Energy and Momentum. > > You can quote me on this. :-) > > Regards, Frederick Frederick, So, what you are saying is that the speed of light in a vacuum is really defined on, basically, the reciprocals of two banal electrical qualities of matter, inductance and capacitance. If that is really true, then I really and truly believe that the so called 'speed of light' limit on all velocity, relative or not, is just another fairy tale sold to us forcefully by a large collection of modern day 'Luddites'. There are just too many logical holes in this 'limit'. Even the E=M(c^2) idea is wrong. It is just not complete. All these formulae were derived from types of tensor differential equations, full and partial. There are other terms in the above formula that have been left out. I know this as I have seen an old book of Einstein's work that was published in the 1920's that included other terms. It was at a 'yard sale' here in the United States. To all our listers in other countries, a yard sale is where we Yanks sell junk that we do not want to dust anymore to people who do not really need it, so that they can later have their own yard sales when they get tired of it too.. Eventually it may even come back to us as a gift, thereby coming full circle. Maybe like the universe. Steven Hawking may even have something to say about that. In fact this whole expansion rate idea involves another term that Einstein had difficulty with. The expansion rate seems to imply an antigravitational force, too. No matter, the idea of superluminality will shortly get a test from which it may never really recover.......again. Somebody has built a radio that SETI would LOVE to get its hands on. It is very similar to the so called 'sub-space' radio from 'Star Trek'. It uses a construct to get around 'light-speed' to send messages to up to infinite speeds in the terahertz range that fall off in strength in direct proportion to the distance and not the square or cube of it. He developed it from analysis of Pulsars' radio signals. I really hope that he is right, so am keeping fingers crossed. Like a Russian scientist said, we either get around this barrier or we have no future......... I might add that I do not want my children to have a future like the perished race of aboriginals that inhabited Easter Island. Neither do I want to see a class and caste type of society that would inevitably evolve from the political and social dynamics of a limited resource. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 09:43:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA22035; Sat, 5 May 2001 09:41:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 09:41:21 -0700 Message-ID: <010001c0d577$b481bdc0$5e181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 08:26:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"REWUS3.0.8O5.lq2zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42403 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Columbia River gorge is one of the best places. 450 wind turbines are under construction and supposed to be the world's largest wind farm. Florida Power and Light already has some there and their subsidiary is building them= 300 megawatts!! Cheers Bruce www.electrifyingtimes.com -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ford To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. >Robin: Jed: > >This is in so many ways a wonderful technology > >Build them in the north sea build them up the eastern US seaboard. >Build them in the trade winds build them on the islands. >Build them on the hills of central California. >Build them wherever it is safe to do so. >DO NOT build them in Tornado Alley. > >In time if necessary we can use other methods in the plains. >Charlie Ford > >KC5-OWZ >cjford1@yahoo.com >cjford1@swbell.net > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 09:46:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23168; Sat, 5 May 2001 09:45:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 09:45:42 -0700 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 09:44:50 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Power Line Waste Remediation. Was Something Else. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: jonesb9@pacbell.net Message-id: <0GCV00FB5FUVHO@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Opera 5.11 build 904 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Resent-Message-ID: <"ZWyls3.0.jf5.lu2zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42404 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >There you are, Mr. Beene. Put the fission reactor wastes >in plastic-wrapped trays suspended from power lines. >The power line corona, and radwaste alphas, betas, and gammas will release >the Hydrogen from the plastic (CxHy etc) and allow the LLs from the >atmosphere to form theNeutral H* and Walla! >Two birds with one stone. :-) The two birds are ususally what keeps me from walking under power lines, even in the best of circumstances. Now if you added some toxic waste up there, well, we could be in store for some major stoning.... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 10:24:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA00637; Sat, 5 May 2001 10:22:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 10:22:44 -0700 X-Sent: 5 May 2001 17:22:34 GMT From: "Peter Fred" To: Subject: RE: Peltier and other thermo electric effects in METAL...NOT required to be Semiconductors Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 13:20:51 -0400 Message-ID: <000101c0d587$bbbcfcc0$c3e01f26@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"Yn0Nc.0.t9.aR3zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42405 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John, Nick Reiter has run the tests on the Peltier device. You have to go to the Vortex-L escribe site to read through all the tests that he and Scott Little have done with this device. Nick has one website devoted to his earlier work with a Peltier. See http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/thermograv160201a.htm . I have a little of his work at my website at http://pbfred.tripod.com/peltier.htm#Nick. Also I have tested a copper enveloped Peltier and was able to observe a ~0.8 mg increase for three runs. The effect was so small I never bothered to put it up on my website. Nevertheless I was happy to observe an increase in weight. Presently I am working on a test to see if I can get another increase in weight with a hemisphere. On one of his last emails to the Vortex-L group Nick said he was going to run his copper-enveloped Peltier device in a Bell Jar. I am not so doubtful about gravity as a "thermal resistive effect" because I have observed an increase in weight when heat was applied inside a convex up copper hemisphere. The change in weight was 0.14 N or 14 g with the application of 2250 W. This can be compared to Nick's work with his copper-enveloped Peltier device if we use his best effect of say 30 milligrams with the use of 50 W. With the copper hemisphere a ~6.3 mg weight change per watt was observed. With the Peltier device ~0.6 mg weight change per watt was observed. The efficacy of a hemisphere over a disc has also been demonstrated at http://pbfred.tripod.com/flatforce.htm where a 0.029 N or a 2.9 g decrease was observed with an aluminum hemisphere and a 0.009 N or a 0.9 g decrease was observed with a aluminum disc of the same area as the hemisphere. With the application of 3000 W this amounts to 1 mg per watt decrease for the aluminum hemisphere and a 0.3 mg per watt decrease for the aluminum disc. Since you have a lot of experimental experience, I would like to ask you if you know of an incident where heat can cause an increase in weight. Maybe coldness can cause an increase in weight. But I am hard put as to figure how an increase in weight can be attributed to heat (except per my theory). Because of this point I have never felt that compelled to run my experiments in a vacuum. But I certainly hope Nick will run his Peltier device in a vacuum which if successful should get people to take more seriously this possible link between heat and gravity. Regards, Peter -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman@antioch-college.edu] Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 7:06 AM To: Peter Fred Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Peltier and other thermo electric effects in METAL...NOT required to be Semiconductors When you run this test is it possible to feel ANY heating on the outside of the device at all? If the answer is yes then you should do a run wherein the entire set up is completely thermally insulated. What steps have you taken to account for the effects of the wires feeding current to the devices? ***Nick and Scott went round and round over this problem. I believe in the end Nick was able to discount this point as a possible artifact. Have you measurde the current and changed for a resistor of the same current and done the tests? ***I believe Nick at least has done this. Have you done the tests and taken two PE coolers and made two cool sides out? After you make the copper enclosed device as usual.... make two of them.... now put two together cold out ... and the warm out.... What happens with the warm side to the East? Cold side to the East? How far away is the this doing the measure of the weight? Is it at least 3 feet away? On Fri, 4 May 2001, Peter Fred wrote: > We have a copper-enveloped Peltier device that exhibits an increase or > decrease in weight depending on whether the hot side is up or down. We also > have an aluminum disc where a ~0.009 N or a ~9 mg drop in weight was > observed when it was irradiated with 3000 W of heat. > > The aluminum disc was cut out of a ~2 x 3'sheet of aluminum that was > obtained from a hardwood store. Even with the broad definition of a > semiconductor device given below, I do not think that this aluminum disc > would fit within this definition. > > Thus we are faced with the need to explain the anomaly of (1)a weight > change with a Peltier device and (2) a weight change with an aluminum disc. > We also have the point we are half way aware of that gravity like heat, and > unlike electricity and magnetism, is material independent. > > Nevertheless we stretch our imagination almost to the limit to somehow link > weight change to a device that involves electricity scrupulously avoiding > the exciting possibility that heat and gravity may be linked. > > Regards, > > > Peter Fred > > "Gravitation as resistance to the radial conduction of heat" > > http://pbfred.tripod.com/ > > > > > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > Dear Folks, > > > > Semiconductors are NOT Required to realized Thermo electric > effects.... > These effects can exhibit themselves in materials systems > including but not limited to: > > a] 2 or more different metals > b] a metal and a semiconductor > c] a metal and a metal compound > d] a metal and a non metal > e] two or more non metals > f] two samples of the SAME metal ...... > g] the same piece of metal in different locations, ie; > > if you take a piece of wire and bend a loop in it and > draw the loop tight to make a "kink" the kinked area is enough different > to exhibit a thermo electric current. > > > > > On Thu, 3 May 2001, Peter Fred wrote: > > > There are no semiconductors in the copper and aluminum hemisphere's where > > Nick and I both observed a change of weight when we applied heat in the > > radial direction. I have even applied heat from above to a flat circular > > aluminum disc and observed a change of weight. See > > http://pbfred.tripod.com/flatforce.htm. > > > > Recently the circular metal cover was left on the burner of our stove > after > > the burner was turned on. It was taken off before it completely turned to > > brown. However where it browned was at the center at a size of about a > > quarter. > > > > To me this is an indication that most of the rising heat moved to the > center > > of the cover and there was so much of it that the center was browned. So > > when I illuminate the aluminum disc from above with 3000 W I infer that > the > > heat accumulates rapidly at the center mimicking the same situation Nick > > creates with his Pita Peltier device where most of the heat with Nick's > > pita-shaped, copper-enveloped Peltier device at least starts off the > center > > of the copper disc. In these two some what similar incidences a change of > > weight was observed. However the incidences were different in that in one > > case there were no semiconductors involved. > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 11:20:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA14806; Sat, 5 May 2001 11:18:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 11:18:05 -0700 Message-ID: <019901c0d587$288ffc40$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "jlsparber" References: <0GCV00FB5FUVHO@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> Subject: Re: Power Line Waste Remediation. Was Something Else. Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:16:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ab1Wl2.0.Gd3.TF4zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42406 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Power Line Waste Remediation. Was Something Else. Jones Beene wrote: > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >There you are, Mr. Beene. Put the fission reactor wastes > >in plastic-wrapped trays suspended from power lines. > >The power line corona, and radwaste alphas, betas, and gammas will release > >the Hydrogen from the plastic (CxHy etc) and allow the LLs from the > >atmosphere to form theNeutral H* and Walla! > > >Two birds with one stone. :-) > > The two birds are ususally what keeps me from walking under power lines, > even in the best of circumstances. Now if you added some toxic waste up > there, well, we could be in store for some major stoning.... LOL! :-) The point is well taken. OTOH, you could "stub out" a high tension line to a Remediation "Shed" and let the nuclear power plants clean up the wastes left over from reprocessing fuel rods. Reprocessing is done in Europe, but I understand that it's not legal in the US? Like Radon Daughters the power lines might also be acting as LL (+/-)traps. This might be what triggers the Corona/Brush discharges on high voltage lines. Regards, Frederick > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 11:31:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA19181; Sat, 5 May 2001 11:30:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 11:30:11 -0700 Message-ID: <01a101c0d588$d8e61600$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "jlsparber" References: <006201c0ca76$820cc300$c9b4bfa8@computer> <01050512141900.01885@linux> Subject: Re: Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:28:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"w8MoH.0.dh4.oQ4zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42407 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" To: Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Re: Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate Standing Bear wrote: > On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Recently, astronomers have discovered that expansion of the Universe is increasing. > > > > The speed of light is given as c = 1/(uo*eo)^1/2 where uo is 4(pi)x10^-7 henry/ meter > > and eo = 8.85x10^-12 farad/meter. > > > > Since expansion of the Universe makes Space more tenuous, permeability uo and > > permittivity eo decrease and c becomes greater. > > > > Thus, since E = mc^2 , m = E/c^2 so an increase in c dictates that mass m Must > > Decrease, thus conserving > > Energy and Momentum. > > > > You can quote me on this. :-) > > > > Regards, Frederick > > Frederick, > So, what you are saying is that the speed of light in a vacuum > is really defined on, basically, the reciprocals of two banal electrical > qualities of matter, inductance and capacitance. If that is really true, > then I really and truly believe that the so called 'speed of light' limit > on all velocity, relative or not, is just another fairy tale sold to us > forcefully by a large collection of modern day 'Luddites'. It is well documented by Red Shift experiments that the speed of light decreases near a mass, because of an increase in uo and eo. Hence it stands to reason that c is NOT constant throughout the Universe. > There are > just too many logical holes in this 'limit'. > Even the E=M(c^2) idea is wrong. It is just not complete. > All these formulae were derived from types of tensor differential > equations, full and partial. There are other terms in the above > formula that have been left out. I know this as I have seen an old > book of Einstein's work that was published in the 1920's that included > other terms. It was at a 'yard sale' here in the United States. To > all our listers in other countries, a yard sale is where we Yanks > sell junk that we do not want to dust anymore to people who do not > really need it, so that they can later have their own yard sales when > they get tired of it too.. Eventually it may even come back to us as > a gift, thereby coming full circle. Maybe like the universe. Steven > Hawking may even have something to say about that. > In fact this whole expansion rate idea involves another term > that Einstein had difficulty with. The expansion rate seems to imply > an antigravitational force, too. > No matter, the idea of superluminality will shortly get a test > from which it may never really recover.......again. Somebody has > built a radio that SETI would LOVE to get its hands on. It is very > similar to the so called 'sub-space' radio from 'Star Trek'. It uses > a construct to get around 'light-speed' to send messages to up > to infinite speeds in the terahertz range that fall off in strength in > direct proportion to the distance and not the square or cube of it. > He developed it from analysis of Pulsars' radio signals. I really > hope that he is right, so am keeping fingers crossed. Like a > Russian scientist said, we either get around this barrier or we have > no future......... I might add that I do not want my children to > have a future like the perished race of aboriginals that inhabited > Easter Island. Neither do I want to see a class and caste type > of society that would inevitably evolve from the political and social > dynamics of a limited resource. Agreed. For all we know light speed c between galaxies is hundreds of times greater than it is in our "neighborhood", and we're getting a fish-eye view of the Universe. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Standing Bear > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 11:45:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA23042; Sat, 5 May 2001 11:44:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 11:44:30 -0700 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 11:44:00 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Power Line Waste Remediation. Was Something Else. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: jonesb9@pacbell.net Message-id: <0GCV00062LDIDG@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Opera 5.11 build 904 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Resent-Message-ID: <"VlRe41.0.td5.Ee4zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42408 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >Like Radon Daughters the power lines might also be acting as LL (+/-)traps. >This might be what triggers the >Corona/Brush discharges on high voltage lines. Although I'm sure that Frederick has seen this site, it should be of interest to anyone who doesn't yet believe that LENRs are most assuredly associated with high voltage lines: http://www.johnco.cc.ks.us/~rhammack/ All the proof I need. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 11:56:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26774; Sat, 5 May 2001 11:55:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 11:55:15 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [195.92.198.74] From: "Oseri M" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Autodynamics Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 18:54:41 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 May 2001 18:54:41.0804 (UTC) FILETIME=[D7C19CC0:01C0D594] Resent-Message-ID: <"14bCU1.0.AY6.Io4zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42409 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To the person who sent the www.autodynamics.org site. Sorry deleted original some days ago. 'The site is pretty'. Sorry for the sarcasm but I just don't buy it. I see many pretty websites that don't get through to the beef. It smacks of charlantry or some quick get rick scheme. No keep it concise. I don't buy this no mass increase, no length contraction, no time dilation. If what we see is an illusion please explain soon before I switch off. These effects happen by experiment. What I'm questioning is the interpretation that is Einstein's relativity. Please say why, *soon* that we are all mistaken. OM _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 12:01:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27889; Sat, 5 May 2001 12:00:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:00:16 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, "Frederick Sparber" , Subject: Re: Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 14:58:39 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29.2] Content-Type: text/plain Cc: "jlsparber" References: <006201c0ca76$820cc300$c9b4bfa8@computer> <01050512141900.01885@linux> <01a101c0d588$d8e61600$ba8f85ce@computer> In-Reply-To: <01a101c0d588$d8e61600$ba8f85ce@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01050515030101.01885@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA27870 Resent-Message-ID: <"WpK1x2.0.hp6._s4zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42410 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 05 May 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Standing Bear" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 1:51 PM > Subject: Re: Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate > > Standing Bear wrote: > > > > On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > Recently, astronomers have discovered that expansion of the Universe is > increasing. > > > > > > The speed of light is given as c = 1/(uo*eo)^1/2 where uo is 4(pi)x10^-7 henry/ > meter > > > and eo = 8.85x10^-12 farad/meter. > > > > > > Since expansion of the Universe makes Space more tenuous, permeability uo and > > > permittivity eo decrease and c becomes greater. > > > > > > Thus, since E = mc^2 , m = E/c^2 so an increase in c dictates that mass m Must > > > Decrease, thus conserving > > > Energy and Momentum. > > > > > > You can quote me on this. :-) > > > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > Frederick, > > So, what you are saying is that the speed of light in a vacuum > > is really defined on, basically, the reciprocals of two banal electrical > > qualities of matter, inductance and capacitance. If that is really true, > > then I really and truly believe that the so called 'speed of light' limit > > on all velocity, relative or not, is just another fairy tale sold to us > > forcefully by a large collection of modern day 'Luddites'. > > It is well documented by Red Shift experiments that the speed of light decreases near > a mass, because of an increase in uo and eo. > Hence it stands to reason that c is NOT constant throughout the Universe. > > > There are > > just too many logical holes in this 'limit'. > > Even the E=M(c^2) idea is wrong. It is just not complete. > > All these formulae were derived from types of tensor differential > > equations, full and partial. There are other terms in the above > > formula that have been left out. I know this as I have seen an old > > book of Einstein's work that was published in the 1920's that included > > other terms. It was at a 'yard sale' here in the United States. To > > all our listers in other countries, a yard sale is where we Yanks > > sell junk that we do not want to dust anymore to people who do not > > really need it, so that they can later have their own yard sales when > > they get tired of it too.. Eventually it may even come back to us as > > a gift, thereby coming full circle. Maybe like the universe. Steven > > Hawking may even have something to say about that. > > In fact this whole expansion rate idea involves another term > > that Einstein had difficulty with. The expansion rate seems to imply > > an antigravitational force, too. > > No matter, the idea of superluminality will shortly get a test > > from which it may never really recover.......again. Somebody has > > built a radio that SETI would LOVE to get its hands on. It is very > > similar to the so called 'sub-space' radio from 'Star Trek'. It uses > > a construct to get around 'light-speed' to send messages to up > > to infinite speeds in the terahertz range that fall off in strength in > > direct proportion to the distance and not the square or cube of it. > > He developed it from analysis of Pulsars' radio signals. I really > > hope that he is right, so am keeping fingers crossed. Like a > > Russian scientist said, we either get around this barrier or we have > > no future......... I might add that I do not want my children to > > have a future like the perished race of aboriginals that inhabited > > Easter Island. Neither do I want to see a class and caste type > > of society that would inevitably evolve from the political and social > > dynamics of a limited resource. > > Agreed. For all we know light speed c between galaxies > is hundreds of times greater than it is in our "neighborhood", and we're getting a > fish-eye view of the > Universe. :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > > Standing Bear > > Nice Hearing From You Frederick, If that is true, then the universe is much smaller than some scientists think, as most measurements seem to have been done on the original lightspeed assumptions. In their hearts, scientists (at least the ones that work for governments and have to live and maybe die by real results and not fantasies) know that light speed is variable and have known so for a long time. Various pieces of defense department gear take this into account. Now we have light that we could outrun, litterally, that travels very slow in Bose-Einstein condensates. Cheers, Lee From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 12:18:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32284; Sat, 5 May 2001 12:16:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:16:00 -0700 Message-ID: <01c101c0d58f$3fbd8b00$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Sam Haines" , "jlsparber" Subject: Re: Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 13:13:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"t9mRr2.0.Hu7.m55zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42411 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Where is Pioneer 10 really, Standing Bear? The other day NASA said that they re-established radio contact with it and it is " 7 Billion Miles Out" which takes ~ 22 hours for a signal to go out and come back. I'm partial to this Bird because I patented the scheme for holding the radioisotope power level constant. OTOH, if the speed of light c = 1/(uo*eo)^1/2 is increasing as the distance from the Sun increases (uo and eo are decreasing) the mass m = E/c^2 of the bird is going down and it is speeding up from the "28,000+ mph" and it might be twice as far away as we think it is. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 14:44:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA08585; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:43:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 14:43:05 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:49:30 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"wgPmc3.0.-52.fF7zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42412 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, How do we amplify sub atomic particles? How to amplify a neutrino... or, forthat matter, an electron, or a proton, or a neutron? Can we amplify hydrogen? I say ...YES! We can amplify Hydrogen and Electrons and Helium. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 06:05:52 -0700 From: Bruce Meland To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: etimes@teleport.com, John Schnurer , "Remy C." , pgp@padrak.com, scarey9622@aol.com, Debbie Foch Subject: Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Hi Mathew; Maybe you should listen to Dr Steven Greer's Press Conference on May 9th at the National Press Club(coordinator@cseti.org) where he will have ex high up govt and military types come forward to testify how the CIA has covered up these advanced energy and propulsion technologies for reasons of national security.According to Dr Greer we have this technology in our antigravity craft now stationed at Pine Gap as well as sattelites with particle beam weaponry(Tesla Technology the OSS confisicated from his residence when he died that have already shot down foreign objects and UFO's. Present Anti- ABM treaty posturing is just political B.S. Also to get up to speed on these advanced propulsion technologies, Area 51 type stuff,. that go far beyond nuclear, and much cheaper cleaner check out our web site www.electrifyingtimes.com where we are announcing nutrino amplification technologies that will make solar and wind power obsolite.(Nutrinovoltaic device that weighs10 lb(half the size of a telephone book) and puts out 1200 watts). Only problem right now is the national security issues and not patentable status of these devices that convert nutrinos to electricity; and supression=raids of Tesla type inventor labs that have found lost Tesla notes and patents, ect. Also there is a surplus of ag products here in the NW with grain unions and most other ag products in the tank(farmers going bankrupt) and recent circuit court ruling will require farmers to to be compensated for taking of their water and with the electricity rebates. the farmers will make more money not growing crops that are below the cost of production and will make some money for a change. This program will also reduce feed and food supplies, hence better prices for the Columbia and Thule Lake farmers in another year, when hopefully water supplies will be more abundant. Cheers Bruce Meland, editor Electrifying Times -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Rogers To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:57 PM Subject: RE: Ornithopter! >Mitch, > Great reply however this thread was turned from ornithopter to Nuclear >fission. >You are correct, thousands of megawatts are safely delivered to your light >bulb every day around the world with nuclear power. > >Nuclear power propulsion is the only means we can tour and develop the solar >system for space exploration. Even if laser implosion fusion comes about as >in some science fiction novels, you still have a risk no matter what you do. > >Here in the Pacific Northwest the environmentalist waco's want us to send >the water down the river for the fish at the cost of power and farming, so >they never thought our power bill would go up. > >When the dam's were designed, the fish were not accounted for , so instead >of designing FISH ladders out of concrete, they want to tear down some free >gravity energy electrical generators. > >Go figure. > >Matt > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones@jump.net] >Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:14 PM >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: RE: Ornithopter! > >>Matthew Rogers wrote: >> >>All the issues I have seen used both in this discussion group and on the >>>world news as a BAD example of science, actually are not bad science, but >>>some idiot who was promoted past his level of competence, pushing a button >>>without reading the manual, or making a decision without an understanding >of >>>the truth. >>> >>>Chernobyl.. >>>Three mile Island. >>>The space shuttle >>>The latest sinking oil platform in south America >> >>A machine which can be destroyed by "some idiot" pushing "a button" is >>badly designed. I do not know much about Chernobyl, but the Three Mile >>Island (TMI) accident was caused by bad human engineering. In particular, >>many vital instruments hid the truth instead of displaying it. This is not >>bad science, but it is bad engineering. >> >>Since the TMI accident, major improvements have been power plant human >>factors engineering, so another accident of a similar nature is unlikely. >>However, as Ed Storms points out, fission is inherently dangerous. > >***{Energy is dangerous stuff. Result: all forms of power generation are >"inherently dangerous." Thus relative safety is the only criterion by which >alternative systems of power generation can be compared, and, on that >basis, fission is *by far* the safest of them all. The reason: it is the >most concentrated power source now known. That means there is far more >energy concentrated in a pound of uranium than in a pound of coal, or oil, >or gasoline, etc. Result: to generate a megawatt of electricity, far fewer >persons are exposed to accidents in extraction, transportation, refining, >consumption, and disposal of waste, for nuclear, than for any other power >source. Result: fewer accidents, and fewer deaths. (For vast detail on this >topic, see *The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear*, by Dr. Petr >Beckmann.) --MJ}*** > >It is >>better than coal, but still not good enough. Every expert in fission I have >>ever heard from would agree with Ed. > >***{Then you must not get out much. For an alternative opinion, ask Dr. >Edward Teller what he has to say on the subject, or Dr. Bernard Cohen, or a >multitude of others. Nobody who knows much about the actual comparative >risks of fission and other power sources goes around hinting that fission >power plants are less safe than the alternatives. Unfortunately, >technophobes on the left, who are the most addle-brained elitist dupes >around, have been beating the drums against fission power for decades, and >the average person's opinions on this topic are utterly wrong as a result. >But, hey, where's the surprise in that, right? :-) --MJ}*** > >>- Jed > >________________ >Quote of the month: > >"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only >exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from >the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the >candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the >result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always >followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 14:53:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10129; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:49:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 14:49:44 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010505172410.02386008@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 17:49:49 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper In-Reply-To: <001101c0d55d$106e1ae0$8b181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3pAR7.0.8U2.tL7zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42413 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bruce Meland wrote: >Good; That is at least two US companys that made lousy reactors. If you read >the the my lousy sentence again it dosn't exactly inferr that GE made the 3 >mi island reactors only that in my neck of the woods,which I am familiar >with . . . Babcock and Wilcox made the TMI reactor. There was nothing wrong with the reactor design or implementation. The TMI accident was caused by badly a badly designed control room, inadequate instruments and a stone age Data General computer. (Stone age by the standards of 1979; in that year I, personally, owned a better, faster DG computer than the TMI plant was equipped with, although I had the same slow printer.) As far as I know, all other major U.S. and western European conventional reactor accidents have been caused by lousy human factors engineering. The equipment has always worked correctly, and if the instruments had been designed correctly, the accidents at Hartsville, Browns Ferry, TMI and elsewhere would never have spiraled out of control. For example, all three redundant control and data cables for Browns Ferry ran down the same hallway, where a worker started a blazing fire checking for gas leaks with a lit candle. If the controls were routed by two or three different paths, there would have been no danger at all. The Japanese Monju breeder reactor accident was caused by an idiotic design. D. Ford described the instrumentation problems in detail, and concluded: The impediments in the TMI-2 control room to the diagnosis of serious accidents were so pervasive that the operators were kept totally ignorant of the fact that the reactor was hovering on the brink of the ultimate nuclear accident. They were frustrated and confused at every turn by missing instruments, unreadable meters, ill-placed monitoring devices, improperly designed switches, inaccessible emergency controls, inherently ambiguous signal lights, a useless computer, distracting and irrelevant alarms, and, most especially, perverse miscues about plant conditions. Only with unparalleled good luck could a handful of operators have been expected to overcome the difficulties posed by a control room so designed. [Operators] Faust, Frederick, and Zewe had no such large measure of good fortune, and they encountered no serendipity as they responded to what they thought initially was a routine, albeit unscheduled, plant shutdown. . . . "Three Mile Island," (Penguin, 1982), p. 133. Some observers blamed the operators, which seems unfair to me. They had no way of knowing what was happening. In the days following the accident the best experts in the world arrived, and they were also stymied by the instrumentation, which included such gems as a thermocouple readout with a 600 degree maximum -- the normal, expected maximum operating temperature. The temperature soared well above this, but the instrument printout on the computer said only: ??????. That meant "overflow," "underflow" or "thermocouple malfunction." The operators and experts assumed it was a malfunction and ignored it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 14:53:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10622; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:51:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 14:51:31 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:57:50 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Standing Bear cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, Frederick Sparber , vortex-l@eskimo.com, jlsparber Subject: Re: Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate In-Reply-To: <01050515030101.01885@linux> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qLwo1.0.pb2.ZN7zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42414 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Standing Bear and Folks, I do not think anyone can gauge the expansion or contraction or much else of the absolutes of the Universe from observations here on Earth... each time we see with new tools... or someone thinks up a new theroy..or even a new way to think about the data we ALREADY HAVE... The numbers change... I do not think we have a "Speed Limit" ... we have a Theory about a speed Limit in some cases which is decades old. The only limit is our imagination and our heart, spirit and ability to survive one another! The only limits I have seen so far are numbers .... JHS On Sat, 5 May 2001, Standing Bear wrote: > On Sat, 05 May 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Standing Bear" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 1:51 PM > > Subject: Re: Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate > > > > Standing Bear wrote: > > > > > > > On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > Recently, astronomers have discovered that expansion of the Universe is > > increasing. > > > > > > > > The speed of light is given as c = 1/(uo*eo)^1/2 where uo is 4(pi)x10^-7 henry/ > > meter > > > > and eo = 8.85x10^-12 farad/meter. > > > > > > > > Since expansion of the Universe makes Space more tenuous, permeability uo and > > > > permittivity eo decrease and c becomes greater. > > > > > > > > Thus, since E = mc^2 , m = E/c^2 so an increase in c dictates that mass m Must > > > > Decrease, thus conserving > > > > Energy and Momentum. > > > > > > > > You can quote me on this. :-) > > > > > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > Frederick, > > > So, what you are saying is that the speed of light in a vacuum > > > is really defined on, basically, the reciprocals of two banal electrical > > > qualities of matter, inductance and capacitance. If that is really true, > > > then I really and truly believe that the so called 'speed of light' limit > > > on all velocity, relative or not, is just another fairy tale sold to us > > > forcefully by a large collection of modern day 'Luddites'. > > > > It is well documented by Red Shift experiments that the speed of light decreases near > > a mass, because of an increase in uo and eo. > > Hence it stands to reason that c is NOT constant throughout the Universe. > > > > > There are > > > just too many logical holes in this 'limit'. > > > Even the E=M(c^2) idea is wrong. It is just not complete. > > > All these formulae were derived from types of tensor differential > > > equations, full and partial. There are other terms in the above > > > formula that have been left out. I know this as I have seen an old > > > book of Einstein's work that was published in the 1920's that included > > > other terms. It was at a 'yard sale' here in the United States. To > > > all our listers in other countries, a yard sale is where we Yanks > > > sell junk that we do not want to dust anymore to people who do not > > > really need it, so that they can later have their own yard sales when > > > they get tired of it too.. Eventually it may even come back to us as > > > a gift, thereby coming full circle. Maybe like the universe. Steven > > > Hawking may even have something to say about that. > > > In fact this whole expansion rate idea involves another term > > > that Einstein had difficulty with. The expansion rate seems to imply > > > an antigravitational force, too. > > > No matter, the idea of superluminality will shortly get a test > > > from which it may never really recover.......again. Somebody has > > > built a radio that SETI would LOVE to get its hands on. It is very > > > similar to the so called 'sub-space' radio from 'Star Trek'. It uses > > > a construct to get around 'light-speed' to send messages to up > > > to infinite speeds in the terahertz range that fall off in strength in > > > direct proportion to the distance and not the square or cube of it. > > > He developed it from analysis of Pulsars' radio signals. I really > > > hope that he is right, so am keeping fingers crossed. Like a > > > Russian scientist said, we either get around this barrier or we have > > > no future......... I might add that I do not want my children to > > > have a future like the perished race of aboriginals that inhabited > > > Easter Island. Neither do I want to see a class and caste type > > > of society that would inevitably evolve from the political and social > > > dynamics of a limited resource. > > > > Agreed. For all we know light speed c between galaxies > > is hundreds of times greater than it is in our "neighborhood", and we're getting a > > fish-eye view of the > > Universe. :-) > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > Standing Bear > > > > Nice Hearing From You Frederick, > If that is true, then the universe is much smaller than some > scientists think, as most measurements seem to have been done > on the original lightspeed assumptions. In their hearts, scientists > (at least the ones that work for governments and have to live and > maybe die by real results and not fantasies) know that light speed > is variable and have known so for a long time. Various pieces of > defense department gear take this into account. Now we have light > that we could outrun, litterally, that travels very slow in Bose-Einstein > condensates. > > Cheers, > Lee > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 14:56:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11301; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:54:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 14:54:26 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 18:00:48 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Frederick Sparber cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, jlsparber Subject: Re: Power Line Waste Remediation. Was Something Else. In-Reply-To: <019901c0d587$288ffc40$ba8f85ce@computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4yun2.0.Vm2.IQ7zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42415 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How does this work...? Won'tthe shed rise up into the air Aquino style? Seriously ... I am interested in the Remediation theory...What is the method using the power line? J On Sat, 5 May 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jones Beene" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:44 AM > Subject: Re: Power Line Waste Remediation. Was Something Else. > > Jones Beene wrote: > > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > >There you are, Mr. Beene. Put the fission reactor wastes > > >in plastic-wrapped trays suspended from power lines. > > >The power line corona, and radwaste alphas, betas, and gammas will release > > >the Hydrogen from the plastic (CxHy etc) and allow the LLs from the > > >atmosphere to form theNeutral H* and Walla! > > > > >Two birds with one stone. :-) > > > > The two birds are ususally what keeps me from walking under power lines, > > even in the best of circumstances. Now if you added some toxic waste up > > there, well, we could be in store for some major stoning.... > > LOL! :-) The point is well taken. > > OTOH, you could "stub out" a high tension line to a > Remediation "Shed" and let the nuclear power plants > clean up the wastes left over from reprocessing fuel rods. > > Reprocessing is done in Europe, but I understand that it's > not legal in the US? > > Like Radon Daughters the power lines might also be acting as LL (+/-)traps. This might > be what triggers the > Corona/Brush discharges on high voltage lines. > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 15:01:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12064; Sat, 5 May 2001 14:57:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 14:57:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 14:56:56 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: sciclub-list@eskimo.com Subject: Amateur Science in the news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Ut05W1.0.8y2.hS7zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42416 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Those of us in the USA who get 'Parade' magazine in the sunday paper should look for an article there about Shawn Carlson and the Society for Amateur Science. ALso, the old SAS website is going down soon. They're moving to www.sas.org. I don't know if all the old stuff is being preserved. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 17:56:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27935; Sat, 5 May 2001 17:55:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:55:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF4A163.51993C1C@gorge.net> Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 17:57:07 -0700 From: tom@gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GI5JX.0.Hq6.K4Azw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42417 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Bruce Meland" wrote": > Columbia River gorge is one of the best places. 450 wind turbines are > under construction Good. I hadn't heard that they had started. Actually, they are NOT "in" the Gorge, but on the east end of it. "Friends of the Gorge," a group of wealthy portland faux-environmentalists has illegitimately obtained control of all land use in the Gorgte, and prohibited any sort of generator in their domain. The strongest wind is "in" the Gorge, but those mentioned above are close enough to be valuable. The first company to obtain approval there was fought tooth and nail, by the local Audobon society. Thy pretended that the very slow moving blades would kill off lots of birds which were never found on or near the site. The wind company was bankrupted, to the openly expressed glee of the "environmentalists." Incidentally, the winds are strong, and nearly year round, because the Columbia Gorge is the only (almost) sea level opening through the Cascades Mountain range. In warm parts of the year, surface heating of the near desert east of the mountains heats the air, which rises, creating what they call a "heat low" on the surface. Cooler, denser air on the west side of the Cascades (Portland and the Pacific) flows through the gorge, into the heat low. Sometimes, a high pressure area sits east of the mountains, and forces a flow to the west. This is most often during the colder months, and can cause a lot of difficulty during the winter. (Occasionaly, the forces are in balance, and there are a few "still" days.)(This usually happens during the sailboard competitions.) ;-) Tom Miller ps- I know of other places where this heat low phenomenon occurs, but the wind flows through mountain passes, so the wind starts later in the day. If anyone wants to set up a wind farm, I will help. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 22:24:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA04579; Sat, 5 May 2001 22:23:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 22:23:31 -0700 Message-ID: <20010506052330.74727.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 22:23:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: RE: Peltier and other thermo electric effects in METAL...NOT required to be Semiconductors To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000101c0d587$bbbcfcc0$c3e01f26@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"aJQ2f.0.N71.J_Dzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42418 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter Fred wrote: [snip] > I am not so doubtful about gravity as a "thermal resistive effect" because I > have observed an increase in weight when heat was applied inside a convex up > copper hemisphere. The change in weight was 0.14 N or 14 g with the > application of 2250 W. This can be compared to Nick's work with his > copper-enveloped Peltier device if we use his best effect of say 30 > milligrams with the use of 50 W. With the copper hemisphere a ~6.3 mg > weight change per watt was observed. With the Peltier device ~0.6 mg weight > change per watt was observed. > > The efficacy of a hemisphere over a disc has also been demonstrated at > http://pbfred.tripod.com/flatforce.htm where a 0.029 N or a 2.9 g decrease > was observed with an aluminum hemisphere and a 0.009 N or a 0.9 g decrease > was observed with a aluminum disc of the same area as the hemisphere. With > the application of 3000 W this amounts to 1 mg per watt decrease for the > aluminum hemisphere and a 0.3 mg per watt decrease for the aluminum disc. I looked at the website. The hemisphere with convex side up is a hot air balloon. It doesn't matter that the bottom is open, so long as hot air, which has reduced density, is trapped by the hemisphere. I think all you measured was hot air bouyancy. BTW, on the website the 0.029 N are equated to 29 mg. The correct correspondence is, of course, 0.029 N gravity force on a 2.9 g mass, as written above. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 5 23:13:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA14846; Sat, 5 May 2001 23:12:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 23:12:39 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 16:11:30 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9nq9ft8slrtvtunhm9uua9hns8i47bq5db@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA14825 Resent-Message-ID: <"stObC.0.td3.NjEzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42419 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to John Schnurer's message of Sat, 5 May 2001 17:49:30 -0400 (EDT): > > > Dear Folks, > > > How do we amplify sub atomic particles? > > How to amplify a neutrino... or, forthat matter, an electron, or a >proton, or a neutron? > > Can we amplify hydrogen? > > I say ...YES! We can amplify Hydrogen and Electrons and Helium. That's nice John. But what does amplify mean in this context? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 6 02:15:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA13517; Sun, 6 May 2001 02:14:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 02:14:52 -0700 X-Sent: 6 May 2001 09:14:49 GMT From: "Peter Fred" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Truly Copernican or truly Ptolemic? Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 05:13:03 -0400 Message-ID: <000201c0d60c$c1dcd280$c3e01f26@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"2WzRc1.0.5J3.COHzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42420 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We now have more confirmation through another study on the Cosmic Background Microwave (CBM) radiation that only 4.5 % of the Universe is made of ordinary matter. This state of affairs has been called by some as "truly Copernican" because it humbles man's position in the Universe as did Copernicus' idea of heliocentric planetary motion. Going along with this viewpoint the news release marking the new CBM findings reads: "The ratio of the intensity between the first and second peaks tells scientists how much ordinary matter exists in the universe. The DASI data indicate that ordinary matter, the stuff of which humans, stars and galaxies are made, accounts for only 4.5 percent of the universe’s total mass and energy. Astrophysicists know that eight times as much dark matter exists in the universe. “The DASI result strengthens the case that most of the mysterious dark matter is comprised of some new form of matter,” said Michael Turner, the Bruce and Diana Rauner Distinguished Service Professor at the University of Chicago. 'We may be made of star stuff, but we are not made of the stuff of the cosmos.'" See http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/01/dasi/010427.dasi.shtml. To me the dark matter concept and its new wrinkle dark energy is similar to the concepts of epicycle and equant that were needed to maintain the failing geocentric viewpoint of the old in-place Ptolemic system. Then, as now, we have weirdness coming to the rescue old mass theory that only the highly mathematically educated -- similar to the Latin-speaking Scholastics -- can be conversant with. What Copernicus came up with was a concept which seemed somewhat sensible -- not unnatural as an epicycle or equant. It may have been humbling but it was sensible. It is this failure of the mass-based gravitational theories of Newton and Einstein to predict beyond the solar system is why I got into a gravitational theory in the first place. When I first started I looked for what I called a "Copernican switch"-- a simple, plausible alternative to a basic assumption of the accepted theory. I thought I had found it when I noted that the gravitational force from the sun and its light both vary inversely as the square of the distance. However this was somewhat of a false lead and I never made much progress with my theory until I scrutinized conduction of heat inside a heat emanating sphere and not the radiation leaving that sphere. And now the effects of conduction in hemisphere and conduction in a disc are at least being discussed and experimented on in this group. We are getting some hints that heat is somehow linked to the gravitational force. Linking the radial conduction of heat to gravity maybe humbling because it disturbs our long held ideas about nature. It fits in with the fact that: starlight is ubiquitous and much easier to detect than the so-called dark matter; heat and gravity are material independent; and the majority of heavenly bodies are spherical. The effects of the radial conduction of heat is a simple plausible alternative to the Newtonian idea of a gravitational theory based on mass. We may be unprepared for this conception but it is not weird. Regards, Peter Fred http://pbfred.tripod.com/ , From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 6 02:15:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA13546; Sun, 6 May 2001 02:14:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 02:14:55 -0700 X-Sent: 6 May 2001 09:14:52 GMT From: "Peter Fred" To: Subject: RE: Peltier and other thermo electric effects in METAL...NOT required to be Semiconductors Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 05:13:07 -0400 Message-ID: <000301c0d60c$c3ecc6c0$c3e01f26@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010506052330.74727.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"ilD0k3.0.aJ3.EOHzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42421 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Michael Schaffer [mailto:schaffermj@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 1:24 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Peltier and other thermo electric effects in METAL...NOT required to be Semiconductors Peter Fred wrote: [snip] > I am not so doubtful about gravity as a "thermal resistive effect" because I > have observed an increase in weight when heat was applied inside a convex up > copper hemisphere. The change in weight was 0.14 N or 14 g with the > application of 2250 W. This can be compared to Nick's work with his > copper-enveloped Peltier device if we use his best effect of say 30 > milligrams with the use of 50 W. With the copper hemisphere a ~6.3 mg > weight change per watt was observed. With the Peltier device ~0.6 mg weight > change per watt was observed. > > The efficacy of a hemisphere over a disc has also been demonstrated at > http://pbfred.tripod.com/flatforce.htm where a 0.029 N or a 2.9 g decrease > was observed with an aluminum hemisphere and a 0.009 N or a 0.9 g decrease > was observed with a aluminum disc of the same area as the hemisphere. With > the application of 3000 W this amounts to 1 mg per watt decrease for the > aluminum hemisphere and a 0.3 mg per watt decrease for the aluminum disc. I looked at the website. The hemisphere with convex side up is a hot air balloon. It doesn't matter that the bottom is open, so long as hot air, which has reduced density, is trapped by the hemisphere. I think all you measured was hot air bouyancy. ***Yes, this point is open to debate because a hot air bouyancy effect and my theory both predict the observed decrease in weight. However, with heat from below flowing up into a convex-up hemisphere, my theory predicts an increase and a hot air buoyancy effect would predict a decrease. The former was observed. Also note that the greater decrease was with the convex-down hemisphere (colander) and not with the convex-up hemisphere. With the former a 0.029 N or a 2.9 g decrease was observed and with the later a 0.006 N or a 0.6 g decrease was observed. The decrease with the former was almost five times greater than that of the later. BTW, on the website the 0.029 N are equated to 29 mg. The correct correspondence is, of course, 0.029 N gravity force on a 2.9 g mass, as written above. Thanks Peter Fred ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 6 02:36:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA16635; Sun, 6 May 2001 02:36:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 02:36:38 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 05:43:03 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Peter Fred cc: Vortex-L Subject: Re: Truly Copernican or truly Ptolemic? In-Reply-To: <000201c0d60c$c1dcd280$c3e01f26@default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id CAA16610 Resent-Message-ID: <"zNdeH.0.l34.ciHzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42422 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, To try to base "confirmations" about what is going on in the entire Universe based on what we can see with our puny tools and instruments... and then couple that with mathmatical ideas which change depending on if the mathmatician is aware of a goven study or not is out there. I would first ask, because I do not have a good view, and someone who is going to make surmise about what is or is not in the Universe, some simple questions: How far can we see with our present tools? In what wavelengths can we see? When a given study is cited, let us take this one, specifically what tools have been used to make the determination and how recently were the tools consulted? Example: If there is a radio telescope being used and a really big one either just came on line or just was taken off line and the study is using a small er tool, or one looking an perhaps a different part of the sky, what impact will this make on the study? AND: What, specifically, are the definitions of "ordinary" matter and not "ordinary" .... and how does a given tool tell us this? "The ratio of the intensity between the first and second peaks tells > scientists how much ordinary matter exists in the universe. Ratio of Intensity of the first and second peaks of WHAT? What peaks? Where are we looking and with what? Is this the 1 in 100,000 of 1 degree temperature change that is being used to make this claim? Exactly how does the thinking go that a thermal change of this tiny an amount tell anyone anything about ordinary VS non ordinary matter..... other than a mathmatical exercise. I am NOT knocking Fred..... I AM more than a little sceptical about a mathmatical conclusion based on this data holding much water as to the nature about the universe. AND: What is there was an error? If the reading was 5 percent more.... does that mean MORE ... or LESS ordinary matter? On Sun, 6 May 2001, Peter Fred wrote: > We now have more confirmation through another study on the Cosmic Background > Microwave (CBM) radiation that only 4.5 % of the Universe is made of > ordinary matter. This state of affairs has been called by some as "truly > Copernican" because it humbles man's position in the Universe as did > Copernicus' idea of heliocentric planetary motion. Going along with this > viewpoint the news release marking the new CBM findings reads: > > "The ratio of the intensity between the first and second peaks tells > scientists how much ordinary matter exists in the universe. The DASI data > indicate that ordinary matter, the stuff of which humans, stars and galaxies > are made, accounts for only 4.5 percent of the universe’s total mass and > energy. Astrophysicists know that eight times as much dark matter exists in > the universe. “The DASI result strengthens the case that most of the > mysterious dark matter is comprised of some new form of matter,” said > Michael Turner, the Bruce and Diana Rauner Distinguished Service Professor > at the University of Chicago. 'We may be made of star stuff, but we are not > made of the stuff of the cosmos.'" See > http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/01/dasi/010427.dasi.shtml. > > To me the dark matter concept and its new wrinkle dark energy is similar to > the concepts of epicycle and equant that were needed to maintain the failing > geocentric viewpoint of the old in-place Ptolemic system. Then, as now, we > have weirdness coming to the rescue old mass theory that only the highly > mathematically educated -- similar to the Latin-speaking Scholastics -- can > be conversant with. > > What Copernicus came up with was a concept which seemed somewhat sensible -- > not unnatural as an epicycle or equant. It may have been humbling but it > was sensible. > > It is this failure of the mass-based gravitational theories of Newton and > Einstein to predict beyond the solar system is why I got into a > gravitational theory in the first place. When I first started I looked for > what I called a "Copernican switch"-- a simple, plausible alternative to a > basic assumption of the accepted theory. > > I thought I had found it when I noted that the gravitational force from the > sun and its light both vary inversely as the square of the distance. > However this was somewhat of a false lead and I never made much progress > with my theory until I scrutinized conduction of heat inside a heat > emanating sphere and not the radiation leaving that sphere. > > And now the effects of conduction in hemisphere and conduction in a disc are > at least being discussed and experimented on in this group. We are getting > some hints that heat is somehow linked to the gravitational force. Linking > the radial conduction of heat to gravity maybe humbling because it disturbs > our long held ideas about nature. It fits in with the fact that: starlight > is ubiquitous and much easier to detect than the so-called dark matter; heat > and gravity are material independent; and the majority of heavenly bodies > are spherical. The effects of the radial conduction of heat is a simple > plausible alternative to the Newtonian idea of a gravitational theory based > on mass. We may be unprepared for this conception but it is not weird. > > Regards, > > Peter Fred > > http://pbfred.tripod.com/ > , > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 6 03:27:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA22542; Sun, 6 May 2001 03:27:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 03:27:06 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 06:33:30 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Bruce Meland cc: Vortex , Schnurer Subject: motor and light In-Reply-To: <005001c0d573$bf206320$5e181ad8@oemcomputer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"W77243.0.8W5.wRIzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42423 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: y Dear Bruce, I am very much interested in the idea of "tuning a motor to light". Can you please let us know how to Tune to Light frequencies, let along other wavelengths. When you say "do a search on neutrinos" do you mean look to something beyond particle physics? Would books and articles do? Ones on atomic physics that discuss neutrinos written by authors including H. M. Georgi, Frank Close, Abner Shimony, Feynman, Fermi, Davies, Dirac, and them-like? I am just at a loss when someone plugs in the term or word "tunes to light" or "amplifies neutrinos" .... but does not say "boo" about how... at all ... See notes, below....... On Sat, 5 May 2001, Bruce Meland wrote: > Hi John do a search on Nutrinos. Motors can be tuned to very high > frequencies, higher that light, which will entrain them! John Christie's > motor works on magnet amplification and pulsing and am not sure nutrinos are > involved. Some other motors have been tuned to run on nutrinos but that is > still classsified. Gamma Rays may also be involved. Nutrinos, subatomic > particles, are created by cosmic rays coming from outerspace, perhaps > collapsing stars,etc and they posess mass and in different forms, like an > electron nutrino or a muon nutrino. Although they can pass through anything, > including life forms and the earth thay have been detected by a $100 million > dollar collector 1000 meters underground in a 50,000 ton tank of water. The > interaction of nutrinos in water gives off faint flashes that can be > detected by photomultiplier tubes. I am aware of the detection experiments. How do the New Energy methods work? It almost seems as though they have plugged in a 'cool sounding' word. This is fine if they say 'I am not usre what is happening and I suspect "XXX (neutrinos in this cse)" are doing the job" ... but in the interest of at least partial belief they can let us know WHAT they are observing or WHY they think this... Otherwise they might as well simply say "We use 'N-Rays' and we don't care what you think".... Or they can say "This is proprietary and after the patents have filed and all the IP protections are in to satisfy out investment partners we will be happy to let you know, but we simply cannot at this time. Tesla, 100 years ago figuted how to make > Nutrinos in to electricity and someone recently found his notes. Where do you think Tesla was "getting" his neutrinos? Why do you think neutrinos are involved? Why do your texts sometimes say in Electrifying Times: "neutrinos and other gamma rays" ? I am just feeling as though there is a gear wheel missing. From Electrifying Times: Two Cairns, Australian inventors on March 12, 2001 unveiled a world first commercial motor generator which can power a house with a continuous clean, green and virtually free energy source, FLAG : which are neutrinos and other gamma particles coming from our sun the stars which have been recently identified to exit in three states and have mass and electrical charge. He also ran > a car(1930 Pierce Arrow aprox) on nutrinos We will be doing a story about > those notes and the technology in our next published Inside Edition of > Electrifying Times For more details keep checking our web site > ww.electrifyingtimes.com From: John Schnurer > > To: Bruce Meland > Cc: elanders@amadeus.net ; Remy C. > ; pgb@padrak.com ; FZNIDARIC@aol.com > ; sqquishy@altavista.com ; > bsh@timelessvoyager.com > Date: Saturday, May 05, 2001 2:24 AM > Subject: Re: A book to read"Taken for a Ride > > > > > > > > Dear Bruce, > > > > You also announce in your magazine about a motor which runs on > >particles from the sun > > "which are neutrinos and other gamma particles" Brinsmead > >mechanical engineer John Christie and electrician Lou > >Brits, How can this be? They are saying Neutrinos are some type of > >other gamma particles? How does the motor use Neutrinos? How do they > >even DETECT the Neutrinos? That is what I want, a simple Neutrino > >detector!. Since they stop at about nothing! > > > > Let us know? > > > > > > Is this the "knock your socks off"? > > > > > >On Fri, 4 May 2001, Bruce Meland wrote: > > > >> Hi Eoin; You need to get the video also; somehow I got one from the > >> underground. this is a monumental effort(video and book) and it took the > >> author 14 yrs to gather all the info. Bruce Meland, editor > >> www.electrifyingtimes.com Now for another eye opener on another subject, > >> DRUGS, a must read is Barry and the Boys by Daniel Hopsicker go to > >> www.barryandtheboys.com and better yet I have spent 10 year gathering > >> revolutionary propulsion technology for automobiles that will make EV's, > >> Hybrids, cold fusion and fuel cells obsolete, but that too has been > >> supressed big time! Electrifying Times will bare all in our next edition > >> Vol 8. no 3. > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: elanders@amadeus.net > >> Date: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 8:05 AM > >> Subject: A book to read > >> > >> > >> >Good day Ecologically minded people, > >> > > >> >I hope that you will forgive my intrusion, but .... > >> > > >> >Please !! Read this book review on Barnes & Nobel .com. > >> > > >> >Nothing that I did not suspect but still very, very, Scary. > >> > > >> > >http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2R8FMOLBJS > >> &mscssid=DSMWG9K5C3SR2M21001PQUW93SUDDD97&isbn=1568581475#reviews > >> > > >> >Best Regards > >> >Private citizen > >> >Eoin Landers > >> > Thanks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 6 03:36:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA23992; Sun, 6 May 2001 03:35:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 03:35:44 -0700 Message-ID: <024c01c0d60f$bb8e69e0$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Missing Hydroxyl Radical (OH) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 04:34:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D5E5.C8A41F00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"zpS033.0.js5.0aIzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42424 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D5E5.C8A41F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What next? http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/05/03/atmosphere.cleanser/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D5E5.C8A41F00 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - Sci-Tech - Study Atmosphere losing ability to clean itself - May 3, 2001.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - Sci-Tech - Study Atmosphere losing ability to clean itself - May 3, 2001.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/05/03/atmosphere.cleanser/index.html [DOC#39] BASEURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html ORIGURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/05/03/atmosphere.cleanser/index.html Modified=E05E4F6F0FD6C001A2 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D5E5.C8A41F00-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 6 07:29:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA01452; Sun, 6 May 2001 07:29:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 07:29:21 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <64.dc5c42d.2826b9b8@aol.com> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:29:12 EDT Subject: Re: Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Resent-Message-ID: <"R7zXw1.0.cM.1_Lzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42425 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: c = HR The speed of light equals the products of Hubbles constant (in units of 1/sec) and the radius of the universe (15 billion light years) http://www.members.aol.com/fznidarsic/physrev.txt Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 6 08:31:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA13644; Sun, 6 May 2001 08:31:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 08:31:17 -0700 Message-ID: <027301c0d639$07972600$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:29:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"nDJU3.0.6L3.5vMzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42426 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FRANK Z. wrote: > > c = HR > I Disagree FRANK. Since c^2 = a^2 + b^2 you can use a diagonal shortcut across the Universe to solve for c. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 6 11:05:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25238; Sun, 6 May 2001 11:04:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 11:04:36 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0d64c$81558d20$81181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:45:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"4jnXG1.0.GA6.q8Pzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42427 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Perhaps a better term is collect and amplify by pumping action like Tesla did it. He either created 2 collecting systems or rods one which was designed to go negative and one to go positive and created a big differential enoughto power a 1931 Pierce Arrow. Another way is to just convert nutrins to a large positive charge using high frequency transistors and use the ground as the negative terminal. It will all be in the next printed issue of Electrifying Times A few good tesla Types have discovered how to do it but their labs have been torched!Cheers Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) >In reply to John Schnurer's message of Sat, 5 May 2001 17:49:30 -0400 >(EDT): > >> >> >> Dear Folks, >> >> >> How do we amplify sub atomic particles? >> >> How to amplify a neutrino... or, forthat matter, an electron, or a >>proton, or a neutron? >> >> Can we amplify hydrogen? >> >> I say ...YES! We can amplify Hydrogen and Electrons and Helium. >That's nice John. But what does amplify mean in this context? > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 6 11:31:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00386; Sun, 6 May 2001 11:30:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 11:30:34 -0700 X-Sent: 6 May 2001 18:30:25 GMT From: "Peter Fred" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: RE: Truly Copernican or truly Ptolemic? Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 14:28:24 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01c0d65a$55de3300$c3e01f26@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"ZEk6x.0.p5.9XPzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42428 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John, I will try answer some of your questions. However you have heard enough from me on the dark matter. I hope others will be willing to express their view on the subject. John Schnurer wrote Dear Folks, To try to base "confirmations" about what is going on in the entire Universe based on what we can see with our puny tools and instruments... and then couple that with mathmatical ideas which change depending on if the mathmatician is aware of a goven study or not is out there. I would first ask, because I do not have a good view, and someone who is going to make surmise about what is or is not in the Universe, some simple questions: How far can we see with our present tools? In what wavelengths can we see? When a given study is cited, let us take this one, specifically what tools have been used to make the determination and how recently were the tools consulted? Example: If there is a radio telescope being used and a really big one either just came on line or just was taken off line and the study is using a small er tool, or one looking an perhaps a different part of the sky, what impact will this make on the study? AND: What, specifically, are the definitions of "ordinary" matter and not "ordinary" .... and how does a given tool tell us this? ***There is a feature article in Physics Today by Scott Tremaine entitled "Dynamical Evidence for the Dark Matter" (Feb 1992)whose title spells out the kind of evidence there is for the dark matter (DM). Thus, since Newton's law fails to predict the faster-than-expected rotation curves of the stars that orbit around the center of a galaxy, what is done to find out how much dark matter is needed to make Newton's law predict correctly. What is primarily used, is Newton's formula for the total gravitational potential energy given by Gm^2/2R. Fortunately a number of people are not too happy with this "dynamical" approach at identifying the dark matter. Since 1974 when the concept was generally accepted millions of dollars have been spent on direct experimental detection of the dark matter. No one has yet detected it except one group whose results have been seriously questioned by another group which has failed to detect it. See http://focus.aps.org/v5/st28.html. I have just read that there are "roughly twenty experiments worldwide that are searching for evidence of scarce interactions between weakly-interacting massive-particle dark matter (WIMPs) and detector nuclei." See astro-ph/008156. But even when these groups fail to observe the DM, someone will claim that the detectors are not sensitive enough. Someone has said that the dark matter concept is non falsifiable. Fortunately, a number of those versant with the dynamical approach have used this technique to conclude that the DM may not exist. See http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/0008188 , http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph?0009074 and http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph?0102082 . There are even a number of people who have seen the similarity of the concept of the dark matter and the concept of the ether and thus when the "non-Keplerian rotation curve catastrophe" was first observed, have been more willing than others to altogether abandon the DM idea. However most of these people have reacted by modifying Newton's gravitational law a large distances (MOND). To me, this is like jumping out of the fire into the frying pan. If you are going to make an important change in a theory, at least come up with a change that has some possibility of agreeing with nature. Einstein used the expression "close to experience" to capture this idea of what I mean by "agreeing with nature". He has used his expression in the following sentence: "On the other hand, it must be conceded that a theory has an important advantage if its basic concepts and fundamental hypotheses are "close to experience," and greater confidence in such a theory is certainly justified." ("On the Generalized Theory of Gravitation" Scientific American, Vol. 182 (April 1950) p. 13. >snip> Regards Peter B. Fred "Gravitation as resistance to the radial conduction of heat" http://pbfred.tripod.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 6 11:31:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00831; Sun, 6 May 2001 11:31:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 11:31:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0d650$348c1fa0$8d181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: "Vortex" , "Schnurer" Subject: Re: motor and light Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:11:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"1giuT1.0.vC.hXPzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42429 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All this technology is highly supressed as inventors that have been working on the technology and have working models have been targeted and are under surveilance by the National Security State. US Marshalls hve destroyed their labs. In other words the govt is out to protect the large corps and elite money cabals. They do't want any revolutionary technology out there that they can't control. I will try to write in our next edition all that i a allowed to write about. Maybe for a little info go to patent search site www.delphion.com and look up pat US4595975 for starters and US4077001 -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer To: Bruce Meland Cc: Vortex ; Schnurer Date: Sunday, May 06, 2001 3:27 AM Subject: motor and light >y > > Dear Bruce, > > I am very much interested in the idea of "tuning a motor to >light". Can you please let us know how to Tune to Light frequencies, let >along other wavelengths. > > When you say "do a search on neutrinos" do you mean look to >something beyond particle physics? Would books and articles do? Ones on >atomic physics that >discuss neutrinos written by authors including H. M. Georgi, Frank >Close, Abner Shimony, Feynman, Fermi, Davies, Dirac, and them-like? > > I am just at a loss when someone plugs in the term or word > "tunes to light" or "amplifies neutrinos" .... but does not say >"boo" about how... at all ... > > See notes, below....... > >On Sat, 5 May 2001, Bruce Meland wrote: > >> Hi John do a search on Nutrinos. Motors can be tuned to very high >> frequencies, higher that light, which will entrain them! John Christie's >> motor works on magnet amplification and pulsing and am not sure nutrinos are >> involved. Some other motors have been tuned to run on nutrinos but that is >> still classsified. Gamma Rays may also be involved. Nutrinos, subatomic >> particles, are created by cosmic rays coming from outerspace, perhaps >> collapsing stars,etc and they posess mass and in different forms, like an >> electron nutrino or a muon nutrino. Although they can pass through anything, >> including life forms and the earth thay have been detected by a $100 million >> dollar collector 1000 meters underground in a 50,000 ton tank of water. The >> interaction of nutrinos in water gives off faint flashes that can be >> detected by photomultiplier tubes. > > > I am aware of the detection experiments. How do the New Energy >methods work? It almost seems as though they have plugged in a 'cool >sounding' word. This is fine if they say 'I am not usre what is >happening and I suspect "XXX (neutrinos in this cse)" are doing the job" >... but in the interest of at least partial belief they can let us know >WHAT they are observing or WHY they think this... Otherwise they might as >well simply say "We use 'N-Rays' and we don't care what you think".... > Or they can say "This is proprietary and after the patents have >filed and all the IP protections are in to satisfy out investment partners >we will be happy to let you know, but we simply cannot at this time. > > > > Tesla, 100 years ago figuted how to make >> Nutrinos in to electricity and someone recently found his notes. > > Where do you think Tesla was "getting" his neutrinos? > Why do you think neutrinos are involved? > Why do your texts sometimes say in Electrifying Times: > "neutrinos and other gamma rays" ? > > I am just feeling as though there is a gear wheel missing. > > From Electrifying Times: > > Two Cairns, Australian inventors on March 12, 2001 unveiled a >world first commercial motor generator which can power a house with a >continuous clean, green and virtually free energy source, > > FLAG : which are neutrinos and other gamma particles > coming from our sun the stars > >which have been recently identified to exit in three states and have >mass and electrical charge. > > > He also ran >> a car(1930 Pierce Arrow aprox) on nutrinos We will be doing a story about >> those notes and the technology in our next published Inside Edition of >> Electrifying Times For more details keep checking our web site >> ww.electrifyingtimes.com From: John Schnurer >> >> To: Bruce Meland >> Cc: elanders@amadeus.net ; Remy C. >> ; pgb@padrak.com ; FZNIDARIC@aol.com >> ; sqquishy@altavista.com ; >> bsh@timelessvoyager.com >> Date: Saturday, May 05, 2001 2:24 AM >> Subject: Re: A book to read"Taken for a Ride >> >> >> > >> > >> > Dear Bruce, >> > >> > You also announce in your magazine about a motor which runs on >> >particles from the sun >> > "which are neutrinos and other gamma particles" Brinsmead >> >mechanical engineer John Christie and electrician Lou >> >Brits, How can this be? They are saying Neutrinos are some type of >> >other gamma particles? How does the motor use Neutrinos? How do they >> >even DETECT the Neutrinos? That is what I want, a simple Neutrino >> >detector!. Since they stop at about nothing! >> > >> > Let us know? >> > >> > >> > Is this the "knock your socks off"? >> > >> > >> >On Fri, 4 May 2001, Bruce Meland wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Eoin; You need to get the video also; somehow I got one from the >> >> underground. this is a monumental effort(video and book) and it took the >> >> author 14 yrs to gather all the info. Bruce Meland, editor >> >> www.electrifyingtimes.com Now for another eye opener on another subject, >> >> DRUGS, a must read is Barry and the Boys by Daniel Hopsicker go to >> >> www.barryandtheboys.com and better yet I have spent 10 year gathering >> >> revolutionary propulsion technology for automobiles that will make EV's, >> >> Hybrids, cold fusion and fuel cells obsolete, but that too has been >> >> supressed big time! Electrifying Times will bare all in our next edition >> >> Vol 8. no 3. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: elanders@amadeus.net >> >> Date: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 8:05 AM >> >> Subject: A book to read >> >> >> >> >> >> >Good day Ecologically minded people, >> >> > >> >> >I hope that you will forgive my intrusion, but .... >> >> > >> >> >Please !! Read this book review on Barnes & Nobel .com. >> >> > >> >> >Nothing that I did not suspect but still very, very, Scary. >> >> > >> >> >> >http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2R8FMOLBJS >> >> &mscssid=DSMWG9K5C3SR2M21001PQUW93SUDDD97&isbn=1568581475#reviews >> >> > >> >> >Best Regards >> >> >Private citizen >> >> >Eoin Landers >> >> > > > > Thanks > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 6 17:36:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA17615; Sun, 6 May 2001 17:32:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 17:32:14 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 17:31:42 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c0d68d$175f7ac0$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: Resent-Message-ID: <"ejGpU3.0.iI4.5qUzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42430 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow, Ok, Here I go, as for the other posts, I agree, amplify what ? Then you bring up scientific mysticism, and invoke Telsla. First, most of Telsla's patents have expired. Second, you nor most other people never worked with Telsla, even though he had some mysterious happenings around him, You cannot disprove a what he didn't do. You can prove or disprove a positive , you cannot disprove a negative. For you to say that Telsla made a neutrino amplifier makes me think you have no understanding of what a neutrino is. If you do, you are ahead of most of the world, as they haven't even figured out what they are, let alone detect them readily. You gave me the link to you website as a here check it out for some information you presented in the group and then without offering any information you want to charge me money for it. Bad move. Sure offer up conspiracies and such, but call the Art bell show not the Vortex list please. I have learned a lot of information on this list, from details of experiments of CF to Where we got our atmosphere and oceans ( comets ). I am here to learn, so show me the info... Matthew Rogers Prove it.. Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman@antioch-college.edu] Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 2:50 PM To: Vortex Subject: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) Dear Folks, How do we amplify sub atomic particles? How to amplify a neutrino... or, forthat matter, an electron, or a proton, or a neutron? Can we amplify hydrogen? I say ...YES! We can amplify Hydrogen and Electrons and Helium. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 06:05:52 -0700 From: Bruce Meland To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: etimes@teleport.com, John Schnurer , "Remy C." , pgp@padrak.com, scarey9622@aol.com, Debbie Foch Subject: Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Hi Mathew; Maybe you should listen to Dr Steven Greer's Press Conference on May 9th at the National Press Club(coordinator@cseti.org) where he will have ex high up govt and military types come forward to testify how the CIA has covered up these advanced energy and propulsion technologies for reasons of national security.According to Dr Greer we have this technology in our antigravity craft now stationed at Pine Gap as well as sattelites with particle beam weaponry(Tesla Technology the OSS confisicated from his residence when he died that have already shot down foreign objects and UFO's. Present Anti- ABM treaty posturing is just political B.S. Also to get up to speed on these advanced propulsion technologies, Area 51 type stuff,. that go far beyond nuclear, and much cheaper cleaner check out our web site www.electrifyingtimes.com where we are announcing nutrino amplification technologies that will make solar and wind power obsolite.(Nutrinovoltaic device that weighs10 lb(half the size of a telephone book) and puts out 1200 watts). Only problem right now is the national security issues and not patentable status of these devices that convert nutrinos to electricity; and supression=raids of Tesla type inventor labs that have found lost Tesla notes and patents, ect. Also there is a surplus of ag products here in the NW with grain unions and most other ag products in the tank(farmers going bankrupt) and recent circuit court ruling will require farmers to to be compensated for taking of their water and with the electricity rebates. the farmers will make more money not growing crops that are below the cost of production and will make some money for a change. This program will also reduce feed and food supplies, hence better prices for the Columbia and Thule Lake farmers in another year, when hopefully water supplies will be more abundant. Cheers Bruce Meland, editor Electrifying Times -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Rogers To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:57 PM Subject: RE: Ornithopter! >Mitch, > Great reply however this thread was turned from ornithopter to Nuclear >fission. >You are correct, thousands of megawatts are safely delivered to your light >bulb every day around the world with nuclear power. > >Nuclear power propulsion is the only means we can tour and develop the solar >system for space exploration. Even if laser implosion fusion comes about as >in some science fiction novels, you still have a risk no matter what you do. > >Here in the Pacific Northwest the environmentalist waco's want us to send >the water down the river for the fish at the cost of power and farming, so >they never thought our power bill would go up. > >When the dam's were designed, the fish were not accounted for , so instead >of designing FISH ladders out of concrete, they want to tear down some free >gravity energy electrical generators. > >Go figure. > >Matt > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones@jump.net] >Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:14 PM >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: RE: Ornithopter! > >>Matthew Rogers wrote: >> >>All the issues I have seen used both in this discussion group and on the >>>world news as a BAD example of science, actually are not bad science, but >>>some idiot who was promoted past his level of competence, pushing a button >>>without reading the manual, or making a decision without an understanding >of >>>the truth. >>> >>>Chernobyl.. >>>Three mile Island. >>>The space shuttle >>>The latest sinking oil platform in south America >> >>A machine which can be destroyed by "some idiot" pushing "a button" is >>badly designed. I do not know much about Chernobyl, but the Three Mile >>Island (TMI) accident was caused by bad human engineering. In particular, >>many vital instruments hid the truth instead of displaying it. This is not >>bad science, but it is bad engineering. >> >>Since the TMI accident, major improvements have been power plant human >>factors engineering, so another accident of a similar nature is unlikely. >>However, as Ed Storms points out, fission is inherently dangerous. > >***{Energy is dangerous stuff. Result: all forms of power generation are >"inherently dangerous." Thus relative safety is the only criterion by which >alternative systems of power generation can be compared, and, on that >basis, fission is *by far* the safest of them all. The reason: it is the >most concentrated power source now known. That means there is far more >energy concentrated in a pound of uranium than in a pound of coal, or oil, >or gasoline, etc. Result: to generate a megawatt of electricity, far fewer >persons are exposed to accidents in extraction, transportation, refining, >consumption, and disposal of waste, for nuclear, than for any other power >source. Result: fewer accidents, and fewer deaths. (For vast detail on this >topic, see *The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear*, by Dr. Petr >Beckmann.) --MJ}*** > >It is >>better than coal, but still not good enough. Every expert in fission I have >>ever heard from would agree with Ed. > >***{Then you must not get out much. For an alternative opinion, ask Dr. >Edward Teller what he has to say on the subject, or Dr. Bernard Cohen, or a >multitude of others. Nobody who knows much about the actual comparative >risks of fission and other power sources goes around hinting that fission >power plants are less safe than the alternatives. Unfortunately, >technophobes on the left, who are the most addle-brained elitist dupes >around, have been beating the drums against fission power for decades, and >the average person's opinions on this topic are utterly wrong as a result. >But, hey, where's the surprise in that, right? :-) --MJ}*** > >>- Jed > >________________ >Quote of the month: > >"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only >exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from >the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the >candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the >result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always >followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 00:19:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA04624; Mon, 7 May 2001 00:18:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 00:18:34 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 03:25:00 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Matthew Rogers cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies In-Reply-To: <001101c0d68d$175f7ac0$1f962640@bear> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vsMVp1.0.981.Anazw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42431 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Matthew Rogers, Let me know what web site you are going to and I will try to borrow time on a www site and go there also. I have had enjoyment building Tesla tuned transformers and some of his resonant circuits. We did not have a good grasp on the neutron until 1932. The "baby neutron" or "tiny neutron" or "little neutron" to use the humor of the particle physics of the time comes from Enrico Fermi.... and he and his peers keep the tradition alive. To Build a Set Up to Amplify Hydrogen I am an experimentalist and as such revel in a technical puzzle. To amplify electrons I use a methods to sense their passing and the proportion of their passing is used to control or regulate the flow or a larger reservoir of electrons. This is hoe the electrons are "Amplified" ... I think most electronics experimenters know the amplifier is a sort of a control mechanism and does not manufacture electrons out of nothing to give us free power. The Hydrogen Amplifier I would first set up a hydrogen source and allow a beam of hydrogen to be formed and accelerate the beam to some nominal moderate level. I would allow the beam to pass through an open 3 element device made of 3 screens one as a cathode, one as a grid and one as a collector plate and would use a GENTLE foward flow of current to determine the nature of the Hydrogen beam. For instance, if the H-Beam was there, not there, going slow, or medium fast or fast. I would then acquire the signal from the Hydrogen Detector, buffer this signal, amplify it in both voltage and current to very high levels and cause the now amplified Hydrogen Control Signal to regulate a valve on the output side of a regulator connected to a fresh tank of dry hydrogen. Now, I have NO CLUE how the "neutrino amplifier" is supposed to work, but would be interested to find out. If the contributors can plee post a simple description similar to the one I just qrote for the Hydrogen amplifier, then we may all be closer to understanding. I am particularly interested in the the sensor and generator part of the neutrino amplifier. Note to Matthew, please let me know if you get any information and I will let you know if I find any. John Schnurer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 03:55:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA07844; Mon, 7 May 2001 03:55:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 03:55:02 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010507124806.006d6390@pop3.club-internet.fr> X-Sender: jplentin@pop3.club-internet.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 12:48:06 +0200 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jean-Pierre Lentin Subject: biological transmutation (was : Question for Ed Storms) In-Reply-To: References: <3AF30833.5080206@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"XuUS51.0.Pw1.6ydzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42432 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Ed, Jones, Keith & all FYI - Jean-Paul Biberian, French physicist and CF aficioniado, who's apparently not on Vortex-l anymore, recently put up a website (in French) on biological transmutations. http://www.multimania.com/grainedescience/ mail : grainedescience@multimania.com He started to redo Kervran's and others' work on biological transmutations, but as this research cannot fit with his university work, he does it on a purely personal basis, funded by a private non-profit association. The site is still under construction, and apparently Jean-Paul does not have too much time to work on it... He asked me to contribute (as a science writer) but I won't have a free minute until July... The English translation is also under construction - which means nobody has done it yet. Any taker ? PS - "Graine de science" means "seed of science"... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 05:17:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA23966; Mon, 7 May 2001 05:17:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 05:17:01 -0700 Message-Id: <200105071216.IAA25331@mercury.mv.net> Subject: Fwd: Flexible Paper Battery From Israel Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 07:10:31 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed@pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"5vDE82.0.Os5.z8fzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42433 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 5/6/01 10:31 AM Received: 5/7/01 6:54 AM From: Remy C., remyc@prodigy.net To: EcoNatural 2002, EcoNatural2002@yahoogroups.com End Secrecy List, endsecrecy@yahoogroups.com As seen on page 53 of WIRED June 2001 From: http://www.powerpaper.com The worldwide trend in consumer products is moving towards smaller, thinner, more powerful and yet more flexible devices, creating a market for Thin and Flexible Microelectronics (TFM) solutions - single- or multi-use disposable microelectronic products that are not bound by size or shape design constraints. As this trend continues, new enabling technologies must emerge to push the envelope, driving the enhanced design of existing products and the development and introduction of entirely new product categories. The major markets to emerge will be in the fields of Smart cards and Tags, Health Products, and Games, Gifts and Novelties. Power Paper is an Israeli privately-held company founded in 1997 by Baruch Levanon, Zvi Nitzan and co-founder Rami Lipman. It has emerged as the leading source of enabling technology for the new thin, flexible microelectronic marketplace. Power Paper will produce unique, fully-integrated, environmentally friendly, single- or multi-use disposable microelectronic products incorporating patented, custom Power Paper power sources, designed to meet specific application and production requirements for all market segments. While the direction of the market points towards a need for these enabling technologies, only inadequate solutions exist to date. Current microelectronic components and solutions are either too costly, inflexible, too thick, or of inadequate quality to support or enable mass production of inexpensive, ultra thin and flexible disposable electronic devices. Power Paper provides the answer - the industry's first and only low-cost, end-to-end, ultra thin and flexible microelectronic products and solutions that solve the problems of form factors, display and manufacturing costs. Power Paper products can be shaped to fit the size, thickness and form factors required by the product's design, desired functionality and manufacturing budget. The core of the Company's solution is its revolutionary, patented, thin and flexible power source, designed with the Company's proprietary scientific technology. PRESS RELEASE (Please go to their site for more recent releases and information about forming business partnerships and ongoing commercial applications. Remy C.) Power Paper Unveils Revolutionary Ultra-Thin, Flexible Battery for OEM Use Caseless Cells Can Be Fabricated in Virtually Any Shape & Size on Any Surface Including Paper; Low-Cost, Non-Toxic Power Source Serves Mass Production Microelectronics Market TEL AVIV, ISRAEL (September, 2000) - Power PaperTM Ltd. of Israel has introduced a patented new battery technology that produces ultra-thin, caseless, low-cost power sources that are almost as flexible as paper. Just 0.5 mm thick and customizable in virtually any shape and size, Power Paper batteries free product designers from the constraints of rigid housings for the first time, making them ideal for disposable microelectronic applications such as single-use medical devices, smart cards and smart tags, and multimedia enhancements for entertainment items, novelties and electronic packaging. Customers license the technology, purchase the proprietary materials from Power Paper, and produce their customized power source in-house on standard silkscreen printing presses, permitting easy integration into their production and assembly processes. Power Paper can also provide a customized manufacturing and assembly solution. A New Kind of Battery Power Paper utilizes Zinc and MnO2-based cathode and anode layers fabricated from proprietary ink-like materials that can be printed, pasted or laminated onto virtually any substrate, including paper. This not only gives the cells their flexibility but also produces a dry battery that eliminates the need for a hermetically sealed metal case. It also removes all conventional limitations on a battery's shape and size. A one-square-inch Power Paper printed cell will provide a 1.5V with a capacity of over 15mAh and will hold for over a two-year shelf life. Cells can be used in multiple combinations for higher voltages. All the ingredients are non-toxic and safe, permitting disposal without endangering the environment. Because it uses standard production equipment, requires no clean- or dry-room conditions and eliminates the cost of the case required in traditional battery manufacturing, a Power Paper cell can be produced for approximately 1 cent per square inch. Even small quantities can be produced at low cost with only minimal tooling expense. POWER PAPER UNVEILS ULTRA-THIN, FLEXIBLE BATTERY FOR OEM USE The finished Power Paper cell can be integrated with printed circuits and microchips to perform functions such as controlling prescription drug injections, monitoring smart tags or transmitting RFID label information over long distances, or adding lights or sounds to a puzzle, greeting card or product box. This permits virtually seamless integration of a power source within a microelectronic device and opens the door to new applications that were never before possible. Meeting Market Demand "The global movement toward smaller, thinner electronic products is fueling a rising demand for flexible, ultra-thin batteries, but until now the only solutions that are thin enough have been inflexible, hazardous and expensive," said Baruch Levanon, CEO of Power Paper Ltd. "By finding a way to eliminate the rigid case, lower the cost and produce an environmentally friendly cell that is no thicker than a Band-Aid, we have redefined the battery and made it possible to tailor a power source to fit almost any size, shape and form factor requirements without the limitations imposed by conventional battery housings." Power Paper is currently licensing its technology for non-rechargeable applications. A rechargeable battery is now under development. About Power Paper Power Paper is a privately held company based in Israel. Founded in 1997, it has emerged as the leading source of enabling technology for the new thin, flexible microelectronic marketplace. For more information, call Power Paper at +972-3-9007525 or visit www.powerpaper.com. Power Paper Ltd. Kibbutz Einat P.O.B 12, Israel 49910 Tel: 972-3-9007500 Fax: 972-3-9007505 E-mail: info@powerpaper.com Public Relations Contact S&S Public Relations Michele Lorbieski tel: 317-275-2275 email: michele@sspr.com ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 06:23:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA15330; Mon, 7 May 2001 06:22:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 06:22:56 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010507092154.00a89ab8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 09:23:06 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: California Energy Commission comments on CF In-Reply-To: <3AF313D8.35FE7804@ix.netcom.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010504152543.00a89308@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"pWCoO1.0.Nl3.l6gzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42434 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I sent the quote from the Cal. Energy Commission to Charles Platt, the author of the Wired article about CF. He responded: "It's high praise for cold fusion, coming from a government institution. I'll bet their statement went through several drafts with a lot of argument." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 06:39:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA21118; Mon, 7 May 2001 06:39:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 06:39:29 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010507092416.028f09d8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 09:39:42 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, Vortex From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. In-Reply-To: <3AF4A163.51993C1C@gorge.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Ajn8y.0.u95.HMgzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42435 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Miller wrote: >"Friends of the Gorge," a group of wealthy portland >faux-environmentalists has >illegitimately obtained control of all land use in the Gorgte, and >prohibited >any sort of generator in their domain. If the Gorge is a wilderness area or mostly covered in forest, I approve. There is plenty of land available for generating wind power, and no need to blight wild landscapes with machinery. >was fought tooth and nail, by the local Audobon society. Thy pretended >that the very slow moving blades would kill off lots of birds which were >never found on or near the site. The blades are not slow moving! They quite fast at the tips, sometimes faster than the wind itself, in which case they make a lot of noise. Fortunately, birds are evolved to avoid flying into large objects in fast winds (50 kph -- they seldom fly in faster winds). Also, the blades are higher than many species normally fly. Wind installations do kill many birds, by electrocuting them at the high voltage wires at the wind farm substation, so wind farms should not be built in parks or wilderness areas. Several orders of magnitude more birds are killed by: 1. Smoke from conventional combustion electric generation. 2. Damage to food supplies by the heat from nuclear plants (especially waterfowl). 3. Running into reflective windows. That is a hazard birds are not evolved to deal with. 4. Airports. 5. Suburban sprawl destruction of nesting areas. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 07:51:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA13778; Mon, 7 May 2001 07:50:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 07:50:14 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010507094037.0290b4f8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 10:50:22 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010505172410.02386008@pop.mindspring.com> References: <001101c0d55d$106e1ae0$8b181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"NG4Xu.0.BN3.cOhzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42436 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "all three redundant control and data cables for Browns Ferry ran down the same hallway, where a worker started a blazing fire checking for gas leaks with a lit candle. If the controls were routed by two or three different paths, there would have been no danger at all." I should have made it clear this was not flammable gas. In fact, it was air. Plumbers often use a candle flame to look for an air leak. Reviewing the Ford book, I see that I have story somewhat mixed up. An untrained electrician's aid was looking for air leaks where electric cables passed through the reactor-building wall. That is supposed to be an air-tight connection. He set fire to the wire insulation. The fire burned for 7.5 hours and badly damaged 1,600 cables, including 618 connected to the plant safety systems. The redundant emergency cooling systems were disabled. This was "a common-mode failure that simultaneously incapacitated multiple safety systems." I said there was nothing wrong with the B&W reactor design or implementation. However, some experts feel the reactor vessel is too small. The mass of cooling water is smaller than in comparable reactors, so when a sudden change occurs, such as an emergency shutdown, the water temperature rises or falls more sharply than with other reactors, which causes the pressure relief found to open more often than normal. The TMI-2 accident was caused by an emergency shutdown. The relief valve opened normally, and then jammed open, draining 220 gallons per minute from the reactor. A set of three emergency feed water pumps could have easily made up the difference, but they were disabled because someone had shut off two valves, preventing the feed water for reaching the reactor. (The two valves were probably shut during a routine test a few days before the accident.) There was yet another set of emergency feed water pumps, which turned on automatically. Unfortunately, the operators soon overrode the pumps and turned them off, because their instruments indicated that the reactor was getting too much cooling water, which can be dangerous. They had no direct method of measuring the water level or water temperature in the reactor. The indirect methods -- reading the water level in another tank and so on -- failed under these circumstances. Also, the indicator lights for the valve that was stuck open and for the two valves that were accidentally locked shut were difficult to see. You have to read the details to get a sense of how the accident happened, and how vulnerable and badly designed nuclear plants were in 1979. (I hope they are better now!) There were 6,000 lights, buttons and switches in the control room, and many were flashing during the accident. Two of crucial indicator lights in this case were on the same board has the "elevator out of service" indicators, which is not where you would think to look in dire emergency. The third light was installed in an inconspicuous spot after the plant was built, and marked with "homemade" sign "RC RV 2 open" with no indication as to whether the open condition was normal and correct during operation, or abnormal. Some lights were burned out -- always off -- but there was usually no test switch, so the only way to find out was to unscrew the bulb and try another. There were green, white and red lights, but no color coding; i.e. with valves red meant open, but with electric circuits red meant closed. Overall, there were 14 different meanings for red, and 11 for green. A human factors engineering firm later reviewed the control room and instrumentation, assigning a numerical score to several instrument design factors. The plant failed 91% of the standard criteria. Incidentally, the relief valve, control room layout and instrumentation were not considered "safety related equipment," and were therefore not covered by government regulations, procedures, or mandatory testing. Each power company hired a local engineering firm to design a control room, and every control room was different. There were no agreed-upon industry standards or government regulations. This is quite unlike aviation, for example, in which airplane and radar equipment layouts are standardized, inspected, and frequently upgraded the latest specifications. (Nuclear plants were not usually upgraded as regulations changed; old plants were "grandfathered" in most cases -- they only had to fulfill the regulations applicable the day they went in service.) After the accident the power company sued the federal government for not regulating instrument design. The power companies usually complain about government regulation, but not after the fact in this case. An NRC commissioner said, "It seems like the new industry position is a plea to 'Stop us before we kill again.'" (Ford, p. 97) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 11:48:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA19681; Mon, 7 May 2001 11:47:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 11:47:47 -0700 Message-ID: <02e801c0d71d$741301c0$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Purchasing Power No Change? Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 12:43:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"Hmyn31.0.Pp4.Itkzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42437 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In 1956 the Minimum Wage was $1.00/hr. In 2001 the Minimum Wage is $5.50/hr. 1956 2001 1 Gal Gasoline $0.35 $1.75 1 Loaf of Bread $0.35 $1.75 1 Hambuger $0.30 $1.50 1 Coke No $ 0.50 Total $1.00 $5.50 The food is better and the gas mileage is almost twice that of 1956. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 12:20:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01499; Mon, 7 May 2001 12:17:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 12:17:07 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010507145955.028f8f68@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 15:17:20 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Purchasing Power No Change? Cc: In-Reply-To: <02e801c0d71d$741301c0$ba8f85ce@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"DyY_u1.0.7N.pIlzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42438 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >In 1956 the Minimum Wage was $1.00/hr. > >In 2001 the Minimum Wage is $5.50/hr. > > 1956 2001 >1 Gal Gasoline $0.35 $1.75 >1 Loaf of Bread $0.35 $1.75 >1 Hambuger $0.30 $1.50 >1 Coke No $ 0.50 > >Total $1.00 $5.50 > >The food is better and the gas mileage is almost twice >that of 1956. :-) That's not quite it, Fred. There has been no change in the purchasing power of the minimum wage. That is deliberate policy. The minimum wage is keyed to the cost of essential goods like food and fuel. However the average wage is now higher than the minimum wage compared to what it was in 1956. The spread has increased. If goods and services cost the same amount relative to income, we would be in an economic crisis. Consumers would not be able to buy the increased output from factories and Hollywood. As long as we are talking 1956 stats, here's some: in 1956 U.S. the per capita energy consumption was 249 million BTU. Today it is 354 milion BTU, a 42% increase. That isn't much when you consider that we now drive a lot more, and most of Americans have air conditioners, washers and driers. Air conditioners for private households hardly existed in 1956. The first one was sold in 1929, but in 1960 only 12% of houses had one, and dryers were still unusual. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 14:34:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29265; Mon, 7 May 2001 14:29:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 14:29:30 -0700 Message-ID: <002c01c0d732$46e93880$89181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Truly Copernican or truly Ptolemic? Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 13:14:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"cZXc72.0.B97.vEnzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42439 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Peter do a search on Nutrinos with altavista, it pretty much concludes that Nutrinos are highly regarded and making up most of dark matter Cheers Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Peter Fred To: Vortex-L Date: Sunday, May 06, 2001 11:32 AM Subject: RE: Truly Copernican or truly Ptolemic? >John, > >I will try answer some of your questions. However you have heard enough >from me on the dark matter. I hope others will be willing to express their >view on the subject. > > > > >John Schnurer wrote > > Dear Folks, > > > To try to base "confirmations" about what is going on in the >entire Universe based on what we can see with our puny tools and >instruments... and then couple that with mathmatical ideas which change >depending on if the mathmatician is aware of a goven study or not is out >there. > > I would first ask, because I do not have a good view, and someone >who is going to make surmise about what is or is not in the Universe, >some simple questions: > > How far can we see with our present tools? > In what wavelengths can we see? > When a given study is cited, let us take this one, specifically >what tools have been used to make the determination and how recently were >the tools consulted? > > Example: If there is a radio telescope being used and a really >big one either just came on line or just was taken off line and the study >is using a small er tool, or one looking an perhaps a different part of >the sky, what impact will this make on the study? > > AND: What, specifically, are the definitions of "ordinary" matter >and not "ordinary" .... and how does a given tool tell us this? > > > >***There is a feature article in Physics Today by Scott Tremaine entitled >"Dynamical Evidence for the Dark Matter" (Feb 1992)whose title spells out >the kind of evidence there is for the dark matter (DM). Thus, since Newton's >law fails to predict the faster-than-expected rotation curves of the stars >that orbit around the center of a galaxy, what is done to find out how much >dark matter is needed to make Newton's law predict correctly. What is >primarily used, is Newton's formula for the total gravitational potential >energy given by > >Gm^2/2R. > >Fortunately a number of people are not too happy with this "dynamical" >approach at identifying the dark matter. Since 1974 when the concept was >generally accepted millions of dollars have been spent on direct >experimental detection of the dark matter. No one has yet detected it >except one group whose results have been seriously questioned by another >group which has failed to detect it. See http://focus.aps.org/v5/st28.html. > >I have just read that there are "roughly twenty experiments worldwide that >are searching for evidence of scarce interactions between >weakly-interacting massive-particle dark matter (WIMPs) and detector >nuclei." See astro-ph/008156. > >But even when these groups fail to observe the DM, someone will claim that >the detectors are not sensitive enough. Someone has said that the dark >matter concept is non falsifiable. Fortunately, a number of those versant >with the dynamical approach have used this technique to conclude that the DM >may not exist. See http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/0008188 , >http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph?0009074 and >http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph?0102082 . > > >There are even a number of people who have seen the similarity of the >concept of the dark matter and the concept of the ether and thus when the >"non-Keplerian rotation curve catastrophe" was first observed, have been >more willing than others to altogether abandon the DM idea. > >However most of these people have reacted by modifying Newton's >gravitational law a large distances (MOND). To me, this is like jumping out >of the fire into the frying pan. If you are going to make an important >change in a theory, at least come up with a change that has some >possibility of agreeing with nature. Einstein used the expression "close >to experience" to capture this idea of what I mean by "agreeing with >nature". He has used his expression in the following sentence: > >"On the other hand, it must be conceded that a theory has an important >advantage if its basic concepts and fundamental hypotheses are "close to >experience," and greater confidence in such a theory is certainly >justified." ("On the Generalized Theory of Gravitation" Scientific American, >Vol. 182 (April 1950) p. 13. > >>snip> > >Regards > >Peter B. Fred > >"Gravitation as resistance to the radial conduction of heat" > >http://pbfred.tripod.com/ > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 16:34:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17610; Mon, 7 May 2001 16:32:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 16:32:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0d743$73411680$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 15:12:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"vkSUI.0.4J4.72pzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42440 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Matt Maybe amplify it is the wrong term maybe just say collect the nutrino type particles(Russian scientists say they are meson decay to gamma rays, W. Reich called it Orgone Energy, Tesla called it Cosmic Energy as not much was known about these high energy particles in 1899) ,and create a voltage difference with the collecting device and with the negative ground to creating high power. A 10 lb waffle iron size space energy coherer can put out 1200 watts. Inventors have been harrassed for years and i will not go any farther. It works and I have observed as well as others, and if you want any more info you will have to just get it from printed version of www.electrifyingtimes.com I have spent much time over 10 years following the the development of the technology with other inventers.They have been using Tesla's notes and patents and have figured it out. They have been using transistors insted of tubes which is all Tesla had available, but they can't get a patent or Nobel Prize(National Security). They have recievet threats, swat teams, US Marshalls from the National Security State if they try to bring to market. I have overwhelming evidence and don't want to get in a pissing contest to uninformed experts at this time. Time is of the essence to get some funders and produce the technology in a foreign country that is not a national security state. Some of inventors are PHD's in Electrical Engineering that have been working on this technology for years. 2 different inventors seperated by half the continent have come up with similar devices. I know it sounds a little far out but if you knew what has been developed at Area 51, this type of technology is business as usual. Listen to National Press Club briefing by DR Steven Greer on May 9th, (some of the 20 top govt officials will mention this type technology then)hopefully on C=Span but you can listen live on his web site, which i don't have in front of me, but will relay to you if you don't have it. Bruce Meland,editor Electrifying Times -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Rogers To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sunday, May 06, 2001 5:38 PM Subject: RE: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) >Wow, > Ok, Here I go, as for the other posts, I agree, amplify what ? > >Then you bring up scientific mysticism, and invoke Telsla. > >First, most of Telsla's patents have expired. Second, you nor most other >people never worked with Telsla, even though he had some mysterious >happenings around him, >You cannot disprove a what he didn't do. You can prove or disprove a >positive , you cannot disprove a negative. For you to say that Telsla made a >neutrino amplifier makes me think you have no understanding of what a >neutrino is. If you do, you are ahead of most of the world, as they haven't >even figured out what they are, let alone detect them readily. > >You gave me the link to you website as a here check it out for some >information you presented in the group and then without offering any >information you want to charge me money for it. >Bad move. > >Sure offer up conspiracies and such, but call the Art bell show not the >Vortex list please. > >I have learned a lot of information on this list, from details of >experiments of CF to Where we got our atmosphere and oceans ( comets ). > >I am here to learn, so show me the info... > > >Matthew Rogers >Prove it.. >Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. > >-----Original Message----- >From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman@antioch-college.edu] >Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 2:50 PM >To: Vortex >Subject: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) > > > Dear Folks, > > > How do we amplify sub atomic particles? > > How to amplify a neutrino... or, forthat matter, an electron, or a >proton, or a neutron? > > Can we amplify hydrogen? > > I say ...YES! We can amplify Hydrogen and Electrons and Helium. > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 06:05:52 -0700 >From: Bruce Meland >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Cc: etimes@teleport.com, John Schnurer , > "Remy C." , pgp@padrak.com, scarey9622@aol.com, > Debbie Foch >Subject: Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies > >Hi Mathew; Maybe you should listen to Dr Steven Greer's Press Conference on >May 9th at the National Press Club(coordinator@cseti.org) where he will have >ex high up govt and military types come forward to testify how the CIA has >covered up these advanced energy and propulsion technologies for reasons of >national security.According to Dr Greer we have this technology in our >antigravity craft now stationed at Pine Gap as well as sattelites with >particle beam weaponry(Tesla Technology the OSS confisicated from his >residence when he died that have already shot down foreign objects and >UFO's. Present Anti- ABM treaty posturing is just political B.S. Also to >get up to speed on these advanced propulsion technologies, Area 51 type >stuff,. that go far beyond nuclear, and much cheaper cleaner check out our >web site www.electrifyingtimes.com where we are announcing nutrino >amplification technologies that will make solar and wind power >obsolite.(Nutrinovoltaic device that weighs10 lb(half the size of a >telephone book) and puts out 1200 watts). Only problem right now is the >national security issues and not patentable status of these devices that >convert nutrinos to electricity; and supression=raids of Tesla type inventor >labs that have found lost Tesla notes and patents, ect. Also there is a >surplus of ag products here in the NW with grain unions and most other ag >products in the tank(farmers going bankrupt) and recent circuit court ruling >will require farmers to to be compensated for taking of their water and with >the electricity rebates. the farmers will make more money not growing crops >that are below the cost of production and will make some money for a change. >This program will also reduce feed and food supplies, hence better prices >for the Columbia and Thule Lake farmers in another year, when hopefully >water supplies will be more abundant. Cheers Bruce Meland, editor >Electrifying Times -----Original Message----- >From: Matthew Rogers >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Date: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:57 PM >Subject: RE: Ornithopter! > > >>Mitch, >> Great reply however this thread was turned from ornithopter to Nuclear >>fission. >>You are correct, thousands of megawatts are safely delivered to your light >>bulb every day around the world with nuclear power. >> >>Nuclear power propulsion is the only means we can tour and develop the >solar >>system for space exploration. Even if laser implosion fusion comes about as >>in some science fiction novels, you still have a risk no matter what you >do. >> >>Here in the Pacific Northwest the environmentalist waco's want us to send >>the water down the river for the fish at the cost of power and farming, so >>they never thought our power bill would go up. >> >>When the dam's were designed, the fish were not accounted for , so instead >>of designing FISH ladders out of concrete, they want to tear down some free >>gravity energy electrical generators. >> >>Go figure. >> >>Matt >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones@jump.net] >>Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:14 PM >>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>Subject: RE: Ornithopter! >> >>>Matthew Rogers wrote: >>> >>>All the issues I have seen used both in this discussion group and on the >>>>world news as a BAD example of science, actually are not bad science, but >>>>some idiot who was promoted past his level of competence, pushing a >button >>>>without reading the manual, or making a decision without an understanding >>of >>>>the truth. >>>> >>>>Chernobyl.. >>>>Three mile Island. >>>>The space shuttle >>>>The latest sinking oil platform in south America >>> >>>A machine which can be destroyed by "some idiot" pushing "a button" is >>>badly designed. I do not know much about Chernobyl, but the Three Mile >>>Island (TMI) accident was caused by bad human engineering. In particular, >>>many vital instruments hid the truth instead of displaying it. This is not >>>bad science, but it is bad engineering. >>> >>>Since the TMI accident, major improvements have been power plant human >>>factors engineering, so another accident of a similar nature is unlikely. >>>However, as Ed Storms points out, fission is inherently dangerous. >> >>***{Energy is dangerous stuff. Result: all forms of power generation are >>"inherently dangerous." Thus relative safety is the only criterion by which >>alternative systems of power generation can be compared, and, on that >>basis, fission is *by far* the safest of them all. The reason: it is the >>most concentrated power source now known. That means there is far more >>energy concentrated in a pound of uranium than in a pound of coal, or oil, >>or gasoline, etc. Result: to generate a megawatt of electricity, far fewer >>persons are exposed to accidents in extraction, transportation, refining, >>consumption, and disposal of waste, for nuclear, than for any other power >>source. Result: fewer accidents, and fewer deaths. (For vast detail on this >>topic, see *The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear*, by Dr. Petr >>Beckmann.) --MJ}*** >> >>It is >>>better than coal, but still not good enough. Every expert in fission I >have >>>ever heard from would agree with Ed. >> >>***{Then you must not get out much. For an alternative opinion, ask Dr. >>Edward Teller what he has to say on the subject, or Dr. Bernard Cohen, or a >>multitude of others. Nobody who knows much about the actual comparative >>risks of fission and other power sources goes around hinting that fission >>power plants are less safe than the alternatives. Unfortunately, >>technophobes on the left, who are the most addle-brained elitist dupes >>around, have been beating the drums against fission power for decades, and >>the average person's opinions on this topic are utterly wrong as a result. >>But, hey, where's the surprise in that, right? :-) --MJ}*** >> >>>- Jed >> >>________________ >>Quote of the month: >> >>"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only >>exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from >>the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the >>candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the >>result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always >>followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville >> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 16:57:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27233; Mon, 7 May 2001 16:54:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 16:54:23 -0700 Message-ID: <001d01c0d746$84e72fc0$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Fw: Candidate for universal gravitational glue Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 15:39:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C0D70B.D88857C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"PWO-J3.0.Rf6.kMpzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42441 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C0D70B.D88857C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable - Candidate for universal gravitational glue=20 UPI Science News Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT=20 TAKAYAMA, Japan, June 5 (UPI) - Researchers say they have identifed what = may be the unseen gravitational glue _ the so-called dark matter = responsible in part for the evolution of the universe from the moment of = its birth: neutrinos.=20 A serious candidate for this glue, neutrinos are invisible, sub- atomic = particles, created at the time of the Big Bang, that stream through the = Earth, people and everything else unfettered.=20 The groundbreaking discovery, announced Friday in Japan by an = international team of scientists, was that neutrinos have mass. Because = the particles fill the universe, scientists say, collectively they may = have the force to reverse its expansive course to cause the ``Big = Crunch.''=20 So fundamental a discovery, they said at Neutrino '98, an international = physics conference in Takayama, Japan, could help explain baffling = puzzles about the nature of matter and the formation of the universe = after the Big Bang.=20 The discovery was the result of a two year, $100 million experiment by = an international team of scientists.=20 Dr. John G. Learned, a University of Hawaii physicist and one of the = lead researchers, told United Press International, the discovery means = neutrinos may account for the many gravitational forces apparent in = astronomical observations that no one has ever been able to explain.=20 ``This will go down as perhaps the one most important discovery in = science in the decade,'' he said Thursday. ``It means that neutrinos are = surely one of the more massive components of the universe.''=20 Dr. David Casper, a University of California-Irvine physicist and = another team member, agreed, asserting the finding will help scientists = understand ``how galaxies and other large scale structures in the = universe interact gravitationally.''=20 Until now, he said, scientists have been puzzled about the movements of = the heavens, knowing that something was missing from their calculations, = and describing the unknown variable as ``dark'' or ``missing'' matter. = This discovery, Learned said, suggests that neutrinos have an aggregate = gravitational influence that may eventually be sufficient to reverse the = universal expansion triggered by the Big Bang and cause a ``Big = Crunch.'' ``The discovery of neutrino mass is intimately connected with = both the origins and ultimate fate of the universe,'' Casper said. ``We = suspected but did not know that neutrinos had tiny mass. We didn't think = of them as making up a part of our world, but in fact, the universe is = full of neutrinos. Every cubic centimeter of the universe has about 200 = or so neutrinos, which are left over from the Big Bang.''=20 The finding may also fill in the blanks in equations aimed at solving = how particles acquire mass, ``one of the deepest unsolved questions of = particle physics,'' Casper said. ``This will help astronomers understand = something that puzzles them greatly _ why is there more gravitational = force than they expect from the amount of stuff the can see out there,'' = Casper added. Learned says neutrinos, until now thought to have no mass, = may on the whole turn out to make up ``most of the mass of the universe. = ''=20 The discovery was made at Super-Kamiokande Observatory, the world's = largest elementary particle detector, northwest of Tokyo. Scientists = from 23 institutions in the United States, Japan, Poland and Korea took = part. The team included Dr. Henry Sobel, also of UC-Irvine.=20 Neutrinos, similar to electrons, have long been known to be a = fundamental constituent of nature. But unlike electrons, neutrinos carry = no electric charge, and thus can pass unimpeded through great distances = in matter. This property, along with their invisibility, has made them = extremely difficult to observe. Scientists have suspected for years that = neutrinos might have a very small, but non-zero, mass, but never before = could prove it.=20 Casper said the discovery won't ``change the life of the average Joe'' = but has profound implications for physicists and astrophysicsts. The = finding also suggests, he said, that the gravitational influence of = neutrinos may have been a catalyst for the collapse of the diffuse = primordial gas into more dense regions that eventually spawned galaxies, = stars and planets.=20 UC-Irvine issued a statement on behalf of its scientists asserting that = the experiment had yielded ``results that are outside the standard = theory of particle physics, which describes the fundamental constituents = of matter and their interactions. Until now, there has been no firm = evidence that neutrinos possess mass.'' The evidence was based upon = studies of neutrinos created when cosmic rays bombard the Earth's upper = atmosphere, producing storms of secndary particles that rain down = constantly from the heavens. Most neutrinos pass through the entire = planet unscathed, but have been detected passing through the = Super-Kamiokande group's 50,000-ton tank of purified water 1,000 meters = beneath the surface.=20 The scientists noticed the neutrinos oscillated, or changed from one = type of neutrino to another, something that could occur only if they = have mass. They say in a joint statement that neutrinos ``must now be = incorporated into the theoretical models of the structure of matter and = that astrophysicists concerned with finding the 'missing' or 'dark = matter' in the universe must now consider the neutrino as a serious = candidate.''=20 Neutrinos were created in vast quantities in the first instants after = the Big Bang and permeate the universe, Casper said.=20 ``Because these leftover neutrinos are everywhere, even if they have a = tiny mass, when you add them up, it adds up to something significant in = terms of how galaxies and large scale structures in the universe = gravitationally interact,'' Casper said. ``You have a zillion things = which by themselves have almost no mass, but when you add them all up, = they can have a large scale. This may now guide theorists in answering = the big question _ why does everything have mass?''=20 Learned said, ``this is fundamental science on the most basic scale,'' = and its practical applications might not become evident for many years.=20 Copyright 1998 by United Press International All rights reserved=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C0D70B.D88857C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-

Candidate for universal gravitational glue

UPI = Science=20 News Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT=20

TAKAYAMA, Japan, June 5 (UPI) - Researchers say they have identifed = what may=20 be the unseen gravitational glue _ the so-called dark matter responsible = in part=20 for the evolution of the universe from the moment of its birth: = neutrinos.=20

A serious candidate for this glue, neutrinos are invisible, sub- = atomic=20 particles, created at the time of the Big Bang, that stream through the = Earth,=20 people and everything else unfettered.=20

The groundbreaking discovery, announced Friday in Japan by an = international=20 team of scientists, was that neutrinos have mass. Because the particles = fill the=20 universe, scientists say, collectively they may have the force to = reverse its=20 expansive course to cause the ``Big Crunch.''=20

So fundamental a discovery, they said at Neutrino '98, an = international=20 physics conference in Takayama, Japan, could help explain baffling = puzzles about=20 the nature of matter and the formation of the universe after the Big = Bang.=20

The discovery was the result of a two year, $100 million experiment = by an=20 international team of scientists.=20

Dr. John G. Learned, a University of Hawaii physicist and one of the = lead=20 researchers, told United Press International, the discovery means = neutrinos may=20 account for the many gravitational forces apparent in astronomical = observations=20 that no one has ever been able to explain.=20

``This will go down as perhaps the one most important discovery in = science in=20 the decade,'' he said Thursday. ``It means that neutrinos are surely one = of the=20 more massive components of the universe.''=20

Dr. David Casper, a University of California-Irvine physicist and = another=20 team member, agreed, asserting the finding will help scientists = understand ``how=20 galaxies and other large scale structures in the universe interact=20 gravitationally.''=20

Until now, he said, scientists have been puzzled about the movements = of the=20 heavens, knowing that something was missing from their calculations, and = describing the unknown variable as ``dark'' or ``missing'' matter. This=20 discovery, Learned said, suggests that neutrinos have an aggregate = gravitational=20 influence that may eventually be sufficient to reverse the universal = expansion=20 triggered by the Big Bang and cause a ``Big Crunch.'' ``The discovery of = neutrino mass is intimately connected with both the origins and ultimate = fate of=20 the universe,'' Casper said. ``We suspected but did not know that = neutrinos had=20 tiny mass. We didn't think of them as making up a part of our world, but = in=20 fact, the universe is full of neutrinos. Every cubic centimeter of the = universe=20 has about 200 or so neutrinos, which are left over from the Big Bang.''=20

The finding may also fill in the blanks in equations aimed at solving = how=20 particles acquire mass, ``one of the deepest unsolved questions of = particle=20 physics,'' Casper said. ``This will help astronomers understand = something that=20 puzzles them greatly _ why is there more gravitational force than they = expect=20 from the amount of stuff the can see out there,'' Casper added. Learned = says=20 neutrinos, until now thought to have no mass, may on the whole turn out = to make=20 up ``most of the mass of the universe. ''=20

The discovery was made at Super-Kamiokande Observatory, the world's = largest=20 elementary particle detector, northwest of Tokyo. Scientists from 23=20 institutions in the United States, Japan, Poland and Korea took part. = The team=20 included Dr. Henry Sobel, also of UC-Irvine.=20

Neutrinos, similar to electrons, have long been known to be a = fundamental=20 constituent of nature. But unlike electrons, neutrinos carry no electric = charge,=20 and thus can pass unimpeded through great distances in matter. This = property,=20 along with their invisibility, has made them extremely difficult to = observe.=20 Scientists have suspected for years that neutrinos might have a very = small, but=20 non-zero, mass, but never before could prove it.=20

Casper said the discovery won't ``change the life of the average = Joe'' but=20 has profound implications for physicists and astrophysicsts. The finding = also=20 suggests, he said, that the gravitational influence of neutrinos may = have been a=20 catalyst for the collapse of the diffuse primordial gas into more dense = regions=20 that eventually spawned galaxies, stars and planets.=20

UC-Irvine issued a statement on behalf of its scientists asserting = that the=20 experiment had yielded ``results that are outside the standard theory of = particle physics, which describes the fundamental constituents of matter = and=20 their interactions. Until now, there has been no firm evidence that = neutrinos=20 possess mass.'' The evidence was based upon studies of neutrinos created = when=20 cosmic rays bombard the Earth's upper atmosphere, producing storms of = secndary=20 particles that rain down constantly from the heavens. Most neutrinos = pass=20 through the entire planet unscathed, but have been detected passing = through the=20 Super-Kamiokande group's 50,000-ton tank of purified water 1,000 meters = beneath=20 the surface.=20

The scientists noticed the neutrinos oscillated, or changed from one = type of=20 neutrino to another, something that could occur only if they have mass. = They say=20 in a joint statement that neutrinos ``must now be incorporated into the=20 theoretical models of the structure of matter and that astrophysicists = concerned=20 with finding the 'missing' or 'dark matter' in the universe must now = consider=20 the neutrino as a serious candidate.''=20

Neutrinos were created in vast quantities in the first instants after = the Big=20 Bang and permeate the universe, Casper said.=20

``Because these leftover neutrinos are everywhere, even if they have = a tiny=20 mass, when you add them up, it adds up to something significant in terms = of how=20 galaxies and large scale structures in the universe gravitationally = interact,''=20 Casper said. ``You have a zillion things which by themselves have almost = no=20 mass, but when you add them all up, they can have a large scale. This = may now=20 guide theorists in answering the big question _ why does everything have = mass?''=20

Learned said, ``this is fundamental science on the most basic = scale,'' and=20 its practical applications might not become evident for many years.=20

Copyright 1998 by United Press International All rights reserved=20

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C0D70B.D88857C0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 17:08:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA00508; Mon, 7 May 2001 17:07:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:07:58 -0700 Message-ID: <005e01c0d748$669c2460$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Fw: Tesla's Electric Car Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 15:52:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005B_01C0D70D.BA3D4C60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"a03LM.0.k7.SZpzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42442 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C0D70D.BA3D4C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable - Tesla's Electric Car - =20 Tesla had already considered the condition of charged particles, each = representing a tightly constricted whorl of aether. The force = necessarily exerted at close distances by such aetheric constrictions = was incalculably large. Aetheric ponderance maintained particulate = stability.=20 Crystalline lattices were therefore places within which one could expect = to find unexpected voltages. Indeed, the high voltages inherent in = certain metallic lattices, intra-atomic field energies, are enormous. = The close Coulomb gradient between atomic centers are electrostatic = potentials reaching humanly unattainable levels.=20 By comparison, the voltages which Tesla once succeeded in releasing were = quite insignificant. In these balanced lattices, Tesla sought the = voltages needed to initiate directed aetheric streams in matter.=20 Once such a flow began, one could simply tap the stream for power.=20 In certain materials, these ether streams might automatically produce = the contaminating electrons, a source of energy for existing appliances. = One could theoretically then "tailor" the materials needed to produce = unexpected aetheric power with or without the attendant detrimental = particles.=20 Tesla did mention the latent aetheric power of charged forces, the = explosive potentials of bound Ether, and the aetheric power inherent in = matter.=20 By these studies, Tesla sought replacement for the 100,000,000 volt = initiating pulses which natural law required for the implementation of = space Ether. Tesla had long been forced to abandon those gigantic means = by other, less natural laws.=20 Thereafter, Tesla shifted his attentions from the appreciation of the = gigantic to an appreciation of the miniature. He sought a means for = proliferating an immense number of small and compact aether power = receivers.=20 With one such device, Tesla succeeded in obtaining power to drive am = electric car. But for the exceptional account which follows, we would = have little information on this last period in Tesla's productive life, = one which very apparently did not cease its prolific streams of = creativity to his last breath.=20 The information comes through an unlikely source, one rarely mentioned = by Tesla biographers. It chanced that an aeronautical engineer, Derek = Ahlers, met with one of Tesla's nephews then living in New York. Theirs = was an acquaintance lasting some 10 years, consisting largely of = anecdotal commentaries on Dr. Tesla. Mr. Savo provided an enormous fund = of knowledge concerning many episodes in Tesla's last years.=20 Himself an Austrian military man and a trained aviator, Mr. Savo was = extremely open about certain long-cherished incidents in which his = uncle's genius was consistency made manifest. Mr. Savo reported that in = 1931, he participated in an experiment involving aetheric power. = Unexpectedly, almost inappropriately, he was asked to accompany his = uncle on a long train ride to Buffalo.=20 A few times in this journey, Mr. Savo asked the nature of their journey. = Dr. Tesla remained unwilling to disclose any information, speaking = rather directly to this issue. Taken into a small garage, Dr. Tesla = walked directly to a Pierce Arrow, opened the hood and began making a = few adjustments. In place of the engine, there was an AC motor.=20 This measured a little more than 3 feet long, and a little more than 2 = feet in diameter. From it trailed two very thick cables which connected = with the dashboard. In addition, there was an ordinary 12 volt storage = battery. The motor was rated at 80 horsepower.=20 Maximum rotor speed was stated to be 30 turns per second. A 6 foot = antenna rod was fitted into the rear section of the car.=20 Dr. Tesla stepped into the passenger side and began making adjustments = on a "power receiver" which had been built directly into the dashboard.=20 The receiver, no larger than a short-wave radio of the day, used 12 = special tubes which Dr. Tesla brought with him in a boxlike case.=20 The device had been prefitted into the dashboard, no larger than a = short-wave receiver. Mr. Savo told Mr. Ahler that Dr. Tesla built the = receiver in his hotel room, a device 2 feet in length, nearly 1 foot = wide, a 1/2 foot high.=20 These curiously constructed tubes having been properly installed in = their sockets, Dr. Tesla pushed in 2 contact rods and informed Peter = that power was now available to drive.=20 Several additional meters read values which Dr. Tesla would not explain. = Not sound was heard. Dr. Tesla handed Mr. Savo the ignition key and told = him to start the engine, which he promptly did. Yet hearing nothing, the = accelerator was applied, and the car instantly moved. Tesla's nephew = drove this vehicle without other fuel for an undetermined long interval. = Mr. Savo drove a distance of 50 miles through the city and out to the = surrounding countryside. The car was tested to speeds of 90 mph, with = the speedometer rated to 120.=20 After a time, and with increasing distance from the city itself, Dr. = Tesla felt free enough to speak. Having now become sufficiently = impressed with the performance of both his device and the automobile.=20 Dr. Tesla informed his nephew that the device could not only supply the = needs of the car forever, but could also supply the needs of a household = - with power to spare. When originally asked how the device worked, = Tesla was initially adamant and refused to speak.=20 Many who have read this "apocryphal account" have stated it to be the = result of an "energy broadcast". This misinterpretation has simply = caused further confusions concerning this stage of Tesla's work. He had = very obviously succeeded in performing, with this small and compact = device, what he had learned in Colorado and Shoreham.=20 As soon as they were on the country roads, clear of the more congested = areas, Tesla began to lecture on the subject. Of the motive source he = referred to "a mysterious radiation which comes out of the aether". The = small device very obviously and effectively appropriated this energy.=20 Tesla also spoke very glowingly of this providence, saying of the energy = itself that "it is available in limitless quantities".=20 Dr. Tesla stated that although "he did not know where it came from, = mankind should be very grateful for its presence".=20 The two remained in Buffalo for 8 days, rigorously testing the car in = the city and countryside. Dr. Tesla also told Mr. Savo that the device = would soon be used to drive boats, planes, trains, and other = automobiles. Once, just before leaving the city limits, they stopped at = a streetlight and a bystander joyfully commented concerning their lack = of exhaust fumes.=20 Mr. Savo spoke up whimsically, saying that they had "no engine". They = left Buffalo and traveled to a predetermined location which Dr. Tesla = knew, an old farmhouse barn some 20 miles from Buffalo. Dr. Tesla and = Mr. Savo left the car in this barn, took the 12 tubes and the ignition = key, and departed.=20 Later on, Mr. Savo heard a rumor that a secretary had spoken candidly = about both the receiver and the test run, being promptly fired for the = security breach. About a month after the incident, Mr. Savo received a = call from a man who identified himself as Lee De Forest, who asked how = he enjoyed the car.=20 Mr. Savo expressed his joy over the mysterious affair, and Mr. de Forest = declared Tesla the greatest living scientist in the world. Later, Mr. = Savo asked his uncle whether or not the power receiver was being used in = other applications.=20 He was informed that Dr. Tesla had been negotiating with a major = shipbuilding company to build a boat with a similarly outfitted engine. = Asked additional questions, Dr. Tesla became annoyed. Highly concerned = and personally strained over the security of this design, it seems = obvious that Tesla was performing these tests in a desperate degree of = secrecy for good reasons.=20 Tesla had already been the victim of several manipulations, deadly = actions entirely sourced in a single financial house. For this reason, = secrecy and care had become his only recent excess. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C0D70D.BA3D4C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-
Tesla's=20 Electric Car - 

Tesla had already considered the condition of charged particles, = each=20 representing a tightly constricted whorl of aether. The force = necessarily=20 exerted at close distances by such aetheric constrictions was = incalculably=20 large. Aetheric ponderance maintained particulate stability.=20

Crystalline lattices were therefore places within which one could = expect=20 to find unexpected voltages. Indeed, the high voltages inherent in = certain=20 metallic lattices, intra-atomic field energies, are enormous. The close = Coulomb=20 gradient between atomic centers are electrostatic potentials reaching = humanly=20 unattainable levels.=20

By comparison, the voltages which Tesla once succeeded in = releasing were=20 quite insignificant. In these balanced lattices, Tesla sought the = voltages=20 needed to initiate directed aetheric streams in matter.=20

Once such a flow began, one could simply tap the stream for = power.=20

In certain materials, these ether streams might automatically = produce the=20 contaminating electrons, a source of energy for existing appliances. One = could=20 theoretically then "tailor" the materials needed to produce = unexpected=20 aetheric power with or without the attendant detrimental particles.=20

Tesla did mention the latent aetheric power of charged forces, = the=20 explosive potentials of bound Ether, and the aetheric power inherent in = matter.=20

By these studies, Tesla sought replacement for the 100,000,000 = volt=20 initiating pulses which natural law required for the implementation of = space=20 Ether. Tesla had long been forced to abandon those gigantic means by = other, less=20 natural laws.=20

Thereafter, Tesla shifted his attentions from the appreciation of = the=20 gigantic to an appreciation of the miniature. He sought a means for=20 proliferating an immense number of small and compact aether power = receivers.=20

With one such device, Tesla succeeded in obtaining power to drive = am=20 electric car. But for the exceptional account which follows, we would = have=20 little information on this last period in Tesla's productive life, one = which=20 very apparently did not cease its prolific streams of creativity to his = last=20 breath.=20

The information comes through an unlikely source, one rarely = mentioned by=20 Tesla biographers. It chanced that an aeronautical engineer, Derek = Ahlers, met=20 with one of Tesla's nephews then living in New York. Theirs was an = acquaintance=20 lasting some 10 years, consisting largely of anecdotal commentaries on = Dr.=20 Tesla. Mr. Savo provided an enormous fund of knowledge concerning many = episodes=20 in Tesla's last years.=20

Himself an Austrian military man and a trained aviator, Mr. Savo = was=20 extremely open about certain long-cherished incidents in which his = uncle's=20 genius was consistency made manifest. Mr. Savo reported that in 1931, he = participated in an experiment involving aetheric power. Unexpectedly, = almost=20 inappropriately, he was asked to accompany his uncle on a long train = ride to=20 Buffalo.=20

A few times in this journey, Mr. Savo asked the nature of their = journey.=20 Dr. Tesla remained unwilling to disclose any information, speaking = rather=20 directly to this issue. Taken into a small garage, Dr. Tesla walked = directly to=20 a Pierce Arrow, opened the hood and began making a few adjustments. In = place of=20 the engine, there was an AC motor.=20

This measured a little more than 3 feet long, and a little more = than 2=20 feet in diameter. From it trailed two very thick cables which connected = with the=20 dashboard. In addition, there was an ordinary 12 volt storage battery. = The motor=20 was rated at 80 horsepower.=20

Maximum rotor speed was stated to be 30 turns per second. A 6 = foot=20 antenna rod was fitted into the rear section of the car.=20

Dr. Tesla stepped into the passenger side and began making = adjustments on=20 a "power receiver" which had been built directly into the = dashboard.=20

The receiver, no larger than a short-wave radio of the day, used = 12=20 special tubes which Dr. Tesla brought with him in a boxlike case.=20

The device had been prefitted into the dashboard, no larger than = a=20 short-wave receiver. Mr. Savo told Mr. Ahler that Dr. Tesla built the = receiver=20 in his hotel room, a device 2 feet in length, nearly 1 foot wide, a 1/2 = foot=20 high.=20

These curiously constructed tubes having been properly installed = in their=20 sockets, Dr. Tesla pushed in 2 contact rods and informed Peter that = power was=20 now available to drive.=20

Several additional meters read values which Dr. Tesla would not = explain.=20 Not sound was heard. Dr. Tesla handed Mr. Savo the ignition key and told = him to=20 start the engine, which he promptly did. Yet hearing nothing, the = accelerator=20 was applied, and the car instantly moved. Tesla's nephew drove this = vehicle=20 without other fuel for an undetermined long interval.=20

Mr. Savo drove a distance of 50 miles through the city and out to = the=20 surrounding countryside. The car was tested to speeds of 90 mph, with = the=20 speedometer rated to 120.=20

After a time, and with increasing distance from the city itself, = Dr.=20 Tesla felt free enough to speak. Having now become sufficiently = impressed with=20 the performance of both his device and the automobile.=20

Dr. Tesla informed his nephew that the device could not only = supply the=20 needs of the car forever, but could also supply the needs of a household = - with=20 power to spare. When originally asked how the device worked, Tesla was = initially=20 adamant and refused to speak.=20

Many who have read this "apocryphal account" have = stated it to=20 be the result of an "energy broadcast". This misinterpretation = has=20 simply caused further confusions concerning this stage of Tesla's work. = He had=20 very obviously succeeded in performing, with this small and compact = device, what=20 he had learned in Colorado and Shoreham.=20

As soon as they were on the country roads, clear of the more = congested=20 areas, Tesla began to lecture on the subject. Of the motive source he = referred=20 to "a mysterious radiation which comes out of the aether". The = small=20 device very obviously and effectively appropriated this energy.=20

Tesla also spoke very glowingly of this providence, saying of the = energy=20 itself that "it is available in limitless quantities".=20

Dr. Tesla stated that although "he did not know where it = came from,=20 mankind should be very grateful for its presence".=20

The two remained in Buffalo for 8 days, rigorously testing the = car in the=20 city and countryside. Dr. Tesla also told Mr. Savo that the device would = soon be=20 used to drive boats, planes, trains, and other automobiles. Once, just = before=20 leaving the city limits, they stopped at a streetlight and a bystander = joyfully=20 commented concerning their lack of exhaust fumes.=20

Mr. Savo spoke up whimsically, saying that they had "no=20 engine". They left Buffalo and traveled to a predetermined location = which=20 Dr. Tesla knew, an old farmhouse barn some 20 miles from Buffalo. Dr. = Tesla and=20 Mr. Savo left the car in this barn, took the 12 tubes and the ignition = key, and=20 departed.=20

Later on, Mr. Savo heard a rumor that a secretary had spoken = candidly=20 about both the receiver and the test run, being promptly fired for the = security=20 breach. About a month after the incident, Mr. Savo received a call from = a man=20 who identified himself as Lee De Forest, who asked how he enjoyed the = car.=20

Mr. Savo expressed his joy over the mysterious affair, and Mr. de = Forest=20 declared Tesla the greatest living scientist in the world. Later, Mr. = Savo asked=20 his uncle whether or not the power receiver was being used in other=20 applications.=20

He was informed that Dr. Tesla had been negotiating with a major=20 shipbuilding company to build a boat with a similarly outfitted engine. = Asked=20 additional questions, Dr. Tesla became annoyed. Highly concerned and = personally=20 strained over the security of this design, it seems obvious that Tesla = was=20 performing these tests in a desperate degree of secrecy for good = reasons.=20

Tesla had already been the victim of several manipulations, = deadly=20 actions entirely sourced in a single financial house. For this reason, = secrecy=20 and care had become his only recent excess.
------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C0D70D.BA3D4C60-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 21:04:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA28982; Mon, 7 May 2001 21:03:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:03:10 -0700 Message-ID: <002701c0d769$4846a0a0$c3181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: , , , Subject: Fw: CSETI Announcement - Urgent Disclosure Project Update Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 19:47:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0D72E.9BE7C8A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"rV-sb.0.m47.-_szw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42443 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0D72E.9BE7C8A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Tony Craddock To: webmaster@cseti.org Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 8:48 PM Subject: CSETI Announcement - Urgent Disclosure Project Update Please Post and Distribute As Desired Since August of 2000, the CSETI Disclosure Project has recorded the testimony of over 100 military, government and related witnesses to UFO = events and projects from around the world. The testimony of these courageous = witnesses creates a permanent archive with the most profound implications as it constitutes dozens of first-hand, often top-secret witnesses to UFO = events, internal UFO -related government projects and covert government = activities related to UFOs, Extraterrestrial Intelligence and exotic energy and propulsion system projects. These 100 witnesses constitute the tip of a larger pool of over 400 prospective witnesses, many of whom would prefer coming forward first in formal Congressional hearings --which we hope = will follow the upcoming planned disclosure event. This testimony is on broadcast quality digital videotape and audio tape. Printed transcriptions of the testimony are currently being created. We are requesting that any further military, government, government- contractor or related witnesses to UFO events and projects contact CSETI Director Dr. Steven Greer immediately for inclusion in the briefing materials and the upcoming disclosure event. Such witnesses may contact = Dr. Greer via the CSETI website at www.cseti.org or at 540 456 8302 (government = witnesses only should use this number, please). Additionally, any other substantial, supporting evidence, such as = government documents, high quality UFO photographs and videotaped images, hard = evidence etc. should similarly be referred to the project for inclusion in the = final briefing materials and disclosure Press Conference. The date for the Disclosure Press Conference and related activities in Washington DC has been set and will occur in the Spring of this year = (2001). Prior to the Disclosure Press Conference we will be conducting private briefings for key leaders in society, government and related = institutions (for example, members of the US Congress, White House staff, scientific = and religious leaders etc). If you have good access to such leaders and can assist with arranging a briefing please contact Dr. Greer as soon as possible. This body of testimony is being edited and the over 100 hours of = testimony will be condensed into a 2 hour briefing video. Additionally, a written briefing document consisting of witness testimony transcripts, = government documents and important case material and policy papers is being = prepared for use in the briefings and in the Disclosure Press Conference in = Washington. The Disclosure Press Conference will present many of the government witnesses in person, and the other evidence and briefing materials will = be available to the media at that time. People with excellent national and = international media contacts who can assist pro bono with media coordination are = invited to contact Dr. Greer also. Unfortunately, a documentary containing this witness testimony will not = be available as there are insufficient funds to complete such a project. We would like to thank all of the supporters and contributors to this historic effort and especially the witnesses who have come together to = let the world know the truth about this very important matter. Anyone who would like to help support this effort is invited to make a tax-deductible contribution to : The Disclosure Project, PO Box 265, = Crozet Va 22932. Further updates will be issued as the date for the event approaches. Again, we would like to thank our many supporters for their assistance = in and dedication to disclosing the truth. The Disclosure Project CSETI 11 February 2001 ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0D72E.9BE7C8A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Tony Craddock <webmaster@cseti.org>
To:= webmaster@cseti.org <webmaster@cseti.org>
Dat= e:=20 Tuesday, February 13, 2001 8:48 PM
Subject: CSETI = Announcement -=20 Urgent Disclosure Project Update

          &nbs= p;    =20 Please Post and Distribute As Desired

Since August of 2000, the = CSETI=20 Disclosure Project has recorded the
testimony of over 100 military,=20 government and related witnesses to UFO events and
projects from = around the=20 world.  The testimony of these courageous witnesses
creates a = permanent=20 archive with the most profound implications as it
constitutes dozens = of=20 first-hand, often top-secret witnesses to UFO events,
internal UFO = -related=20 government projects and covert government activities
related to UFOs, = Extraterrestrial Intelligence and exotic energy and
propulsion system = projects. These 100 witnesses constitute the tip of a
larger pool of = over 400=20 prospective witnesses, many of whom would prefer
coming forward first = in=20 formal Congressional hearings --which we hope will
follow the = upcoming=20 planned disclosure event.

This testimony is on broadcast quality = digital=20 videotape and audio tape.
Printed transcriptions of the testimony are = currently being created.

We are requesting that any further = military,=20 government, government-
contractor or related witnesses to UFO events = and=20 projects contact CSETI
Director Dr. Steven Greer immediately for = inclusion in=20 the briefing
materials and the upcoming disclosure event. Such = witnesses may=20 contact Dr. Greer via
the CSETI website at www.cseti.org or at 540 456 8302 (government=20 witnesses
only should use this number, please).

Additionally, = any=20 other substantial, supporting evidence, such as government
documents, = high=20 quality UFO photographs and videotaped images, hard evidence
etc. = should=20 similarly be referred to the project for inclusion in the = final
briefing=20 materials and disclosure Press Conference.

The date for the = Disclosure=20 Press  Conference and related activities in
Washington DC has = been set=20 and will occur in the Spring of this year (2001).

Prior to the = Disclosure=20 Press Conference we will be conducting private
briefings for key = leaders in=20 society, government and related institutions
(for example, members of = the US=20 Congress, White House staff, scientific and
religious leaders etc). = If you=20 have good access to such leaders and can
assist with arranging  = a=20 briefing please contact Dr. Greer as soon as
possible.

This = body of=20 testimony is being edited and the over 100 hours of testimony
will be = condensed into a 2 hour briefing video. Additionally, a = written
briefing=20 document consisting of witness testimony transcripts, = government
documents=20 and important case material and policy papers is being prepared
for = use in=20 the briefings and in the Disclosure Press Conference in = Washington.

The=20 Disclosure Press Conference will present many of the = government
witnesses in=20 person, and the other evidence and briefing materials will  be=20 available
to the media at that time.  People with excellent = national and=20 international
media contacts  who can assist pro bono with media = coordination are invited
to contact Dr. Greer = also.

Unfortunately, a=20 documentary containing this witness testimony will not be
available = as there=20 are insufficient funds to complete such a project.

We would like = to thank=20 all of the supporters and contributors to this
historic effort and = especially=20 the witnesses who have come together to let
the world know the truth = about=20 this very important matter.

Anyone who would like to help support = this=20 effort is invited to make a
tax-deductible contribution to : The = Disclosure=20 Project, PO Box 265, Crozet
Va 22932.

Further updates will be = issued=20 as the date for the event approaches.

Again, we would like to = thank our=20 many supporters for their assistance in
and dedication to disclosing = the=20 truth.

The Disclosure Project
CSETI
11 February=20 2001
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0D72E.9BE7C8A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 21:54:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA13438; Mon, 7 May 2001 21:53:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:53:31 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000101c0d743$73411680$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> References: <000101c0d743$73411680$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:51:46 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"wrrtl3.0.qH3.Altzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42444 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bruce: > Some of inventors are PHD's in Electrical Engineering > that have been working on this technology for years. One of those wouldn't be Dr. Bearden, would it? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 7 22:19:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA22383; Mon, 7 May 2001 22:16:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 22:16:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF78193.B0887E1D@gorge.net> Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 22:18:11 -0700 From: tom@gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TL8nn2.0.fT5.y4uzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42445 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > If the Gorge is a wilderness area or mostly covered in forest, I > approve. It is definitely NOT wilderness. The "Scenic Area" has nine small cities, aluminum plants, sawmills, a freeway, two railroads, farms, orchards, and some forest. About as much forest as barren ground. Also, it has two major hydroelectric dams, Bonneville, and The Dalles, which entail at least three large transmission lines through the Gorge. (not to mention a Natural Gas Pipeline.) Oh, and some moderately good scenery--not as scenic as a lot of other places in WA and OR. Definitely NOT a "wild landscape." > The blades are not slow moving! They quite fast at the tips, http://www.wind.enron.com/PRODUCTS/15/15specs.html It looks like they have 10-20 RPM, with ~70m/s max tip speed. Originally, Zond was planning 2-3 rpm, if memory serves. They will be on otherwise barren ridges, with maybe meadowlarks and sparrows-- a few raptors. The Audobon folks said there would be migratory birds (passerine) but none were found by the professionals. Then they said "But you didn't count at night." My limited research says that migratory birds typically do not fly at night. Tom From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 8 01:12:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA08115; Tue, 8 May 2001 01:12:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 01:12:19 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wind potential mainly on great plains in U.S. Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 08:11:44 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3afda82a.54185744@mail.midiowa.net> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010507092416.028f09d8@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010507092416.028f09d8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA08095 Resent-Message-ID: <"f8wCp2.0.j-1.Zfwzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42446 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 07 May 2001 09:39:42 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >The blades are not slow moving! They quite fast at the tips, sometimes >faster than the wind itself, in which case they make a lot of noise. They are definitely faster than the wind -- approaching the speed of sound. Properly designed blades, however, don't make noise (noise wastes power and is a symptom of inefficient design) except when they sweep past the support tower. >Fortunately, birds are evolved to avoid flying into large objects in fast >winds (50 kph -- they seldom fly in faster winds). Also, the blades are >higher than many species normally fly. You'll find raptors using wind generator nacelles as a convenient perch. They rarely get hit by the blades. However, animals aren't aware of fast moving objects coming at them, whether it be a wind turbine blade or an automobile. And it's too late to move when they finally realize the danger. (A chicken doesn't see a hawk diving, either.) -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 8 01:37:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA10609; Tue, 8 May 2001 01:36:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 01:36:31 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Tesla's Electric Car Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 08:35:57 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3afeaf64.56036386@mail.midiowa.net> References: <005e01c0d748$669c2460$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <005e01c0d748$669c2460$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA10576 Resent-Message-ID: <"NTEps3.0.Wb2.E0xzw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42447 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Bruce, I have quite a few books about Tesla, but I don't recall this excerpt. Where did it come from (and why didn't the author know that 12 volts wasn't used in 1931 automobiles)? On Mon, 7 May 2001 15:52:29 -0700, "Bruce Meland" wrote: >Tesla's Electric Car - >Himself an Austrian military man and a trained aviator, Mr. Savo was extremely open about certain long-cherished incidents in which his uncle's genius was consistency made manifest. Mr. Savo reported that in 1931, he participated in an experiment involvi ng aetheric power. Unexpectedly, almost inappropriately, he was asked to accompany his uncle on a long train ride to Buffalo. > >A few times in this journey, Mr. Savo asked the nature of their journey. Dr. Tesla remained unwilling to disclose any information, speaking rather directly to this issue. Taken into a small garage, Dr. Tesla walked directly to a Pierce Arrow, opened the hood and began making a few adjustments. In place of the engine, there was an AC motor. > >This measured a little more than 3 feet long, and a little more than 2 feet in diameter. From it trailed two very thick cables which connected with the dashboard. In addition, there was an ordinary 12 volt storage battery. The motor was rated at 80 horse power. -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 8 06:54:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20236; Tue, 8 May 2001 06:52:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 06:52:37 -0700 X-Sent: 8 May 2001 13:52:27 GMT From: "Peter Fred" To: Subject: RE: Candidate for universal gravitational glue Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 09:50:37 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c0d7c5$dccb1600$cde01f26@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0D7A4.55B97600" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <001d01c0d746$84e72fc0$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"CZJ9w3.0.1y4.be_zw"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42448 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0D7A4.55B97600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This neutrino finding is from an June 4 1998 news release which I believe came out before the news that the universe is accelerating. Or at any rate this news release does not take into account of the acceleration universe finding. An accelerating universe is quite a problem for those who hold on to 300 year old belief that mass has some mysterious ability to attract other mass. With an accelerating universe some other kind of mass must now possess an ability to repel other mass. Here is part of a 2000 May 9 news release dealing in part with the accelerating universe problem: "BOOMERANG and MAXIMA results, though, indicate that inflation and an accelerating universe can be reconciled if 65 percent of the universe is composed of an unknown "dark energy" which may be linked to the cosmological constant, a factor in general relativity equations whose value -- and even existence -- has been a subject of debate for the better part of a century. Most of the rest of the universe -- 30 percent of its overall mass-energy density -- is thought to be "dark matter", a form of unusual matter that escapes normal detection techniques. Only five percent of the mass is in the form of ordinary matter, including all the stars, galaxies, and planets we see." from http://www.spaceviews.com/2000/05/09b.html . In order to maintain a flat universe and a gravitational theory based on mass, there has there has to be two kinds of dark matter : (1) ordinary attractive dark matter; and (2) a repulsive dark energy which supposedly resides in the vacuum. As I understand it, the neutrino can not fulfill the role of both kinds. Dr. Leaned was claiming that the neutrino could only have an attractive role. I have found one paper suggesting that because of the second peak problem the dark energy may comprise as much as 99 % of the mass of the universe. See http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph?0101484 Here is Michael Turner's 29 Nov 1998 analysis of the situation: For the first time, we have a plausible, complete accounting of matter and energy in the Universe. Expressed a fraction of the critical density it goes like this: neutrinos, between 0.3% and 15%; stars, 0.5%; baryons (total), 5%; matter (total), 40%; smooth, dark energy, 60%; adding up to the critical density. This accounting is consistent with the inflationary prediction of a flat Universe and defines three dark-matter problems: Where are the dark baryons? What is the nonbaryonic dark matter? What is the nature of the dark energy? The leading candidate for the (optically) dark baryons is diffuse hot gas; the leading candidates for the nonbaryonic dark matter are slowly moving elementary particles left over from the earliest moments (cold dark matter), such as axions or neutralinos; the leading candidates for the dark energy involve fundamental physics and include a cosmological constant (vacuum energy), a rolling scalar field (quintessence), and light, frustrated topological defects. (from http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/9811454) Regards, Peter B. Fred "Gravitation as resistance to the radial conduction of heat" http://pbfred.tripod.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Meland [mailto:etimes@teleport.com] Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 6:39 PM To: vortex-1@eskimo.com Cc: matt@accelnet.net Subject: Fw: Candidate for universal gravitational glue - Candidate for universal gravitational glue UPI Science News Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT TAKAYAMA, Japan, June 5 (UPI) - Researchers say they have identifed what may be the unseen gravitational glue _ the so-called dark matter responsible in part for the evolution of the universe from the moment of its birth: neutrinos. Copyright 1998 by United Press International All rights reserved ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0D7A4.55B97600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This=20 neutrino finding is from  an June 4 = 1998 news=20 release which I believe came out before the news that the universe is=20 accelerating. Or at any rate this news release does not take into = account=20 of the acceleration universe finding.  An  accelerating = universe is=20 quite a problem for those who hold on to 300 year old belief that mass = has some=20 mysterious ability to attract other mass.  With an=20 accelerating universe some other kind of mass must now possess an = ability=20 to repel other mass.
 
 
Here=20 is part of a  2000 May 9 news release dealing in part with the = accelerating=20 universe problem:
 
"BOOMERANG and MAXIMA = results,=20 though, indicate that inflation and an accelerating universe can be = reconciled=20 if 65 percent of the universe is composed of an unknown "dark energy" = which may=20 be linked to the cosmological constant, a factor in general relativity = equations=20 whose value -- and even existence -- has been a subject of debate for = the better=20 part of a century.

Most of the rest of the universe -- 30 percent of = its overall=20 mass-energy density -- is thought to be "dark matter", a form of unusual = matter=20 that escapes normal detection techniques. Only five percent of the mass = is in=20 the form of ordinary matter, including all the stars, galaxies, and = planets we=20 see."    from http://www.spaceviews.com/2000/05/09b.html .

 

In order to  maintain a flat universe and a = gravitational=20 theory based on mass, there has there has to be two kinds of dark matter = :=20 (1) ordinary attractive dark matter; and (2) a repulsive dark = energy which=20 supposedly resides in the vacuum. As I understand it, the neutrino can = not=20 fulfill the role of both kinds.  Dr. Leaned was claiming that the = neutrino=20 could only have an attractive role. 

I have found one paper suggesting that because of the second = peak problem=20 the dark energy may comprise as much as 99 % of the mass of the = universe. =20 See http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs= /astro-ph?0101484

 

Here is Michael Turner's 29=20 Nov 1998 analysis of the = situation:

For the first time, = we have a=20 plausible, complete accounting of matter and energy in the Universe. = Expressed a=20 fraction of the critical density it goes like this: neutrinos, between = 0.3% and=20 15%; stars, 0.5%; baryons (total), 5%; matter (total), 40%; smooth, dark = energy,=20 60%; adding up to the critical density. This accounting is consistent = with the=20 inflationary prediction of a flat Universe and defines three dark-matter = problems:  Where are the dark baryons? What is the nonbaryonic dark = matter?=20 What is the nature of the dark energy? The leading candidate for the = (optically)=20 dark baryons is diffuse hot gas; the leading candidates for the = nonbaryonic dark=20 matter are slowly moving elementary particles left over from the = earliest=20 moments (cold dark matter), such as axions or neutralinos; the leading=20 candidates for the dark energy involve fundamental physics and include a = cosmological constant (vacuum energy), a rolling scalar field = (quintessence),=20 and light, frustrated topological defects.

(from http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs= /astro-ph/9811454)

Regards,

 

Peter B. Fred

"Gravitation as resistance to the radial conduction of=20 heat"

http://pbfred.tripod.com/

 

 

 

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Bruce Meland=20 [mailto:etimes@teleport.com]
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 6:39 = PM
To: vortex-1@eskimo.com
Cc:=20 matt@accelnet.net
Subject: Fw: Candidate for universal = gravitational=20 glue

 
-

Candidate for universal gravitational glue =

UPI=20 Science News Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT=20

TAKAYAMA, Japan, June 5 (UPI) - Researchers say they have identifed = what=20 may be the unseen gravitational glue _ the so-called dark matter = responsible=20 in part for the evolution of the universe from the moment of its = birth:=20 neutrinos.=20

Copyright 1998 by United Press International All rights reserved=20

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0D7A4.55B97600-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 8 09:48:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA01832; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:47:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 09:47:53 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:46:19 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: More About the Small Comet Theory Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA01776 Resent-Message-ID: <"rJ0R43.0.PS.uC2-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42449 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have continued to analyze the information related to the small comet theory, in an effort to find some line of reasoning that would permit a clear-cut decision regarding the truth of the theory, and have made some progress. The small comet theory arose as an attempt to explain dark spots on UV photographs taken of Earth's atmosphere during the day by the polar satellite Dynamics Explorer 1. The norm for such a photo, based on current physics, ought to be a uniform glow throughout the dayside ionosphere, due to emissions of UV. This glow, called the dayglow, does in fact show up on the photos. However, it isn't uniform: dark spots appear in the dayglow images with a frequency of roughly 1 every 6 seconds, and those spots have the absorption characteristics of *water vapor*. Result: Dr. Louis Frank, after exhausting virtually all conventional options, finally postulated that the spots are caused by a continuous infall and dissipation, above the ionosphere, of small comets with an average mass of 100 metric tons (10^8 grams). (See http://smallcomets.physics.uiowa.edu/ for details.) Since the resulting clouds of water vapor were between the cameras of Dynamics Explorer 1 and the dayglow layer, they absorbed the UV that was traveling toward those cameras, producing dark spots on the photographic images. A problem arises, however, due to the fact that if small comets are falling onto Earth, then they are falling onto the moon as well. Since the small comets were supposed to be falling onto Earth at a rate of one every 6 sec, or 86,400 per day, and, since the lunar mass is .0123 times Earth's mass, they ought to be impacting the lunar surface at a rate of .0123(86400) = 1063 per day. However, as Robin pointed out in our discussion, the Apollo seismographs only detected .93 impacts per day. Since a 100 metric ton iceball impacting the lunar surface at 42 km/sec would have an energy of about 20 kilotons (KT), either some highly efficient process was absorbing the resulting seismic waves, or else the small comet theory is wrong. Was there evidence suggesting that the lunar seismographs might be subject to a range limit, where surface impacts were concerned? The answer is yes: (1) Loose, unconsolidated geological material (regolith) is known to be highly absorptive of seismic waves. (That's why you put your ear on the railroad tracks rather than on the ground, if you want to know whether a train is coming.) (2) The lunar regolith, according to some sources, extends to a depth of 20 km. Meteor bombardment over the eons produced that broken material, and there was no process acting to fuse those particles back together again, unless they were far enough beneath the surface for pressure to do so. (On Earth, the process of *diagenesis* acts to fuse regolith into rock: percolating water deposits dissolved material in the cracks between particles, and, over the eons, fuses them into a solid mass. However, on the moon, diagenesis cannot operate, because temperatures beneath the surface are far below the freezing point of water.) As a consequence of (1) and (2), it seemed reasonable to suppose that the presence of the regolith may have, in fact, rendered the seismographs virtually deaf, where surface impacts were concerned. On the other hand, a 20 KT impact, one would think, would wake the dead. Result: uncertainty and frustration. Continued thought, however, led to continued insights. The other day, for example, it occurred to me that it should be possible to calculate what the range limit of the Apollo seismographs would have to be, in order for them to have the required degree of deafness. Since they detected an average of .93 impacts per day, and should have detected 1063 per day, it would seem to follow that the range limit of the Apollo seismographs was such that impacts could only be detected on .93/1063 = .000875, or .0875% of the lunar surface. With the surface area of the moon being 4žr^2 = 4ž(1738)^2 = 37,958,532 km^2, it follows that the detection area for lunar surface impacts was (.000875)(37,958,532) = 33,214 km^2. The range of the seismograph would be the radius of that area, which is r = (33214/ž)^.5 = 252 km, or about 103 miles. The question, then, became this: is any working seismograph crappy enough to not be able to detect a 20 KT explosion from a distance of 103 miles, even on a deeply fractured surface such as that of the moon? In my judgment, it was highly unlikely, and so at that point I decided that the small comet theory was probably incorrect. However, it then occurred to me that my original calculation of an impact speed of 42 km per second was wrong. That calculation was based on simply converting the potential energy of a 100-ton object at "infinity" to kinetic energy at the lunar surface. But Earth is moving at about 29 km/sec around the sun, and the small comets are in prograde orbits--which means: they are coming up on Earth from behind. Therefore the correct impact velocity of a small comet on the lunar surface would be 42 - 29 = 13 km/sec, or 1.3x10^6 cm/sec. Thus the true impact energy of a 100 metric ton small comet would be (1/2)mV^2 = (1/2)(10^8)[(1.3x10^6)^2] = 8.45x10^19 ergs, or 8.45x10^12 joules--which is about 2 KT. Result: since the explosion was an order of magnitude weaker than previously calculated, it became much more plausible that the absorptive qualities of the lunar regolith would be sufficient to prevent the detection of a small comet impact. Later, I went back to the small comet website and read some material that I hadn't noticed before (see http://smallcomets.physics.uiowa.edu/faq.htmlx), where I discovered that Dr. Frank's most recent writings no longer postulate 100 metric ton small comets. Apparently the expanded database which resulted from the launch of the Earth Polar Orbiter satellite is best explained by postulating an infall of one 20 to 40 ton small comet every 3 seconds, rather than a 100 ton small comet every 6 seconds, as per his original paper. But that brings the size of the required lunar explosions down to a mere 600 tons of TNT, on average. The implication: if it is plausible that the explosion of 600 tons of TNT would be so attenuated by passage through the lunar regolith that it would not be detected by a seismograph 103 miles away, then the small comet theory remains standing. In my view, the situation remains highly unsatisfying, because that is still a *big* explosion, and it thus remains *very* unclear whether it ought to be detectible or not. Given that frustrating state of affairs, the main argument supporting the small comet theory is, to be blunt, simply this: it is the *only* theory which purports to explain the dark spots on the dayglow images. Let us, therefore, see if we can come up with an alternative explanation which is less problematical. To account for the UV absorption in those spots, we need an average of 30 metric tons (3x10^7 grams) of H2O at the location of each spot. If that water does not result from the infall of small comets, then logic would suggest that it must be coming from lower altitudes within Earth's atmosphere. However, water vapor is pretty much absent above the troposphere, which only extends to about 18 km, and in order to produce spots on satellite UV photos, water vapor would have to be transported above the D-layer of the ionosphere, which lies between 60 and 90 km above sea level. Thus, for starters, we need to know how much energy would be required to lift 3x10^7 grams of water from an altitude of 18 km, to an altitude of 90 km. That would be F*d = (m/a)d = [(3x10^7)/980][(90)(1000)(100) - (18)(1000)(100)] = (3.06x10^4)(7.2x10^6) = 2.2x10^11 ergs. Next question: where might the required energy come from? Well, how about meteors? There is a certain percentage of meteors that are large enough to reach into the troposphere before completely burning up. In such cases, all of their energy will become available in the form of heat in an approximately vertical column of air connecting the top of the troposphere to the 100 km level. It is reasonable to suppose that the result would be a rising column of superheated air that would suck a large mass of water vapor out of the troposphere, and transport it above the D-layer, where it would absorb upward-directed UV, and cause spots in the dayglow images. The question is, how large a meteor would be required? The answer is the value of m in the following equation, which equates the kinetic energy of a meteor of unknown mass with the energy required to lift 3x10^7 grams of water to an altitude of 100 km: (1/2)m(1.3x10^6)^2 = 2.2x10^11 Solving, we find that m = .26 grams, for a meteor assumed to be traveling at 13 km/sec. However, since the resulting thermal seems likely to be much less than 100% efficient in moving tropospheric gases upwards, I would be inclined to add a fudge factor, and bump the required size up to, say, 1 gram. One question remains: is it reasonable to suppose that Earth sweeps up a 1 gram meteor every 3 seconds? Well, it seems a lot more reasonable than supposing that it sweeps up a 30 metric ton small comet every 3 seconds! :-) Beyond that, here are some interesting data from http://iota.jhuapl.edu/lunar_leonid/alpoproj.htm: ***************************************************** "Table 1. Frequency and Characteristics of Lunar Meteorite Impacts Flash Magnitude Gehring Crater m N(Moon) Mean Interval La Paz et al. Diameter 1 g 910,000 35 seconds +12.1 +11.2 0.3 meters 10 g 63,000 8 minutes +9.6 +9.6 0.6 100 g 4,400 2 hours +7.1 +7.9 1.2 1 kg 300 1 day +4.6 +6.2 2.6 10 kg 21 18 days +2.1 +4.6 5.6 100 kg 1.4 8 months -0.4 +2.9 12.0 1000 kg 0.10 10 years -2.9 +1.2 25.8 10000 kg 0.007 135 years -5.4 -0.4 55.5 Notes: N(Moon) is based on the model: log N = -1.62 - 1.16 log m, where: N = number of impacts per year per sq km for objects of mass m grams, multiplied by the 37,960,000 sq km area of the Moon; from Latham et al. (1973). The magnitudes are maximum visual instantaneous flash magnitudes; first as extrapolated from La Paz (1938), second (with numerous assumptions by this writer) as extrapolated from Gehring et al. (1964). The crater diameters are based on the very approximate ratio of 30:1 for the crater:impactor diameters. In all cases, the impactor density is assumed to be 3.0, and its velocity as 25 km/sec." ***************************************************** According to the table, 910,000 one-gram meteors impact the moon every year. Since the moon has .0123 times the mass of Earth, the corresponding figure for Earth would be 910000/.0123 = 73,983,740, which is 2.3 one-gram meteors per second, or about 7 of them every three seconds. That number, when adjusted to take into account the fact that dayglow spots are on the dayside only, and that some meteors come in too far from the vertical to produce coherent thermals, strikes me as spectacular agreement with the observed facts. Bottom line: the meteor generated thermal theory looks a lot better than the small comet theory to me--at the moment, at any rate. :-) --Mitchell Jones ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 8 10:43:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA25973; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:39:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 10:39:23 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010508133450.0290a390@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 13:39:35 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Wasting energy as a private and sacred ritual Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"x_E1I3.0.fL6.Az2-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42450 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Conservation may be a sign of personal virtue, but it is not a sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy." - Vice President Dick Cheney According to USA Today, a reporter asked [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer] this question at a press briefing: "Does the President believe that, given the amount of energy Americans consume per capita, how much it exceeds any other citizen in any other country in the world, does the President believe we need to correct our lifestyles to address the energy problem?" Fleischer responded: "That's a big no. The president believes that it's an American way of life, and that it should be the goal of policymakers to protect the American way of life. The American way of life is a blessed one." - http://politics.slate.msn.com/politics/default.asp From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 8 10:50:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA30451; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:48:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 10:48:29 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <012501c0d4fb$5204cce0$ba8f85ce@computer> References: Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:07:26 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Tunguska "Event" Resent-Message-ID: <"oQ8yq1.0.iR7.j53-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42451 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mitchell Jones" >To: >Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 7:44 PM >Subject: The Tunguska "Event" > >Mitchell Jones wrote. > >> Here is something interesting: >> >> "Tunguska Event. A gigantic explosion that occurred at about 7:17 a.m. on >> June 30, 1908 in the basin of the River Podkamennaya Tunguska, Central >> Siberia. Devastation rained over an area 80 km in diameter and eye >> witnesses up to 500 km away saw in a cloudless sky the flight and explosion >> of a blindingly bright pale blue bolide. The sound of the explosion >> reverberated thousands of kilometers away, the explosion air wave recorded >> on microbarographs going twice round the world. The main explosion had an >> energy of 5X10^16 joules and occurred at an altitude of 8.5 km. It was >> caused by the disintegration of an incoming object, most likely a Fragile >> Apollo asteroid or a small comet nucleus. When the object encountered the >> earth it would have been coming from a point in the dawn sky comparitively >> close to the sun and would thus have been most difficult to detect and >> observe." [*The Facts on File Dictionary of Astronomy*, pg. 469] >> >> A megaton (MT) is defined as 10^15 calories, which is 4.185x10^15 joules. >> Thus the magnitude of the above described explosion was 11.95 MT! >> >> Will somebody please explain how the disintegration of a natural object can >> result in the sudden release of that much energy? > >How about a 40,000 tonne "dirty snowball" sandy comet moving at the >typical comet >speed of 50 Km/sec? > >K.E. = 5x10^16 = 1/2mv^2 ***{The problem is that such an object would release its energy gradually, rather than suddenly. The ice wouldn't all flash to steam at once, but would instead be heated from the outside in--which means: atoms would boil off from the surface, while those further inside remained frozen. However, to get a 12 MT blast at one location in the trajectory, the thing would have had to suddenly disintegrate at that location. The only explanation I have managed to come up with that could lead to such a result would be if the object were a huge ball of dust, covered by a thick coating of ice. In that case, the ice would hold the dust together for awhile, but as the ice gradually boiled away due to atmospheric friction, it would eventually become too thin. At that point, the entire object would disintegrate suddenly. When that happened its surface area, hence its wind resistance, would increase by a vast multiple--probably by many billions--and it would screech to a stop in a very short interval, converting all of its kinetic energy to heat. Result: a 12 megaton blast. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >At a tonne/meter^3 it would only have to be about 45 meters in diameter. >Then it would >flash into steam and the added shock wave from the collapse of this steam >bubble added >to the atmospheric shock wave would help level the forest. :-) > >Regards, Frederick ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 8 12:22:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA12776; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:21:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:21:45 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0d7e9$980fd4a0$49181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Fw: Tesla's Electric Car Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 10:55:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"qZ9Hk3.0.T73.8T4-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42452 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There were several versions of the story on the Pierce Arrow electric and that is th eonly one that mentions a 12 volt so perhaps it was in error, Did you get the Moray Version? Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Dean T. Miller To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 1:37 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Tesla's Electric Car >Hi Bruce, > >I have quite a few books about Tesla, but I don't recall this excerpt. >Where did it come from (and why didn't the author know that 12 volts >wasn't used in 1931 automobiles)? > >On Mon, 7 May 2001 15:52:29 -0700, "Bruce Meland" > wrote: > >>Tesla's Electric Car - > >>Himself an Austrian military man and a trained aviator, Mr. Savo was extremely open about certain long-cherished incidents in which his uncle's genius was consistency made manifest. Mr. Savo reported that in 1931, he participated in an experiment involving aetheric power. Unexpectedly, almost inappropriately, he was asked to accompany his uncle on a long train ride to Buffalo. >> >>A few times in this journey, Mr. Savo asked the nature of their journey. Dr. Tesla remained unwilling to disclose any information, speaking rather directly to this issue. Taken into a small garage, Dr. Tesla walked directly to a Pierce Arrow, opened the hood and began making a few adjustments. In place of the engine, there was an AC motor. >> >>This measured a little more than 3 feet long, and a little more than 2 feet in diameter. From it trailed two very thick cables which connected with the dashboard. In addition, there was an ordinary 12 volt storage battery. The motor was rated at 80 horsepower. > > >-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 8 13:43:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA17301; Tue, 8 May 2001 13:40:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 13:40:33 -0700 Message-ID: <002501c0d818$6c68dc00$0b7bccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Subject: Re: More About the Small Comet Theory Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:41:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"DS1kD2.0.FE4.0d5-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42453 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones provides an interesting analysis of the Frank Ice Comet hypothesis, and asks why don't the lunar seismographs detect them? A factor he did not take into account is Frank's hypothesis that the "comets' are loosely aggregated snowballs, held together by their mutual weak gravity, that dissipate as soon as they encounter the upper reaches of the Earth's atmosphere. They are not compacted ice or solid rock. Even without a lunar atmosphere, that makes a lot of difference in the nature of the mechanical impulse delivered to the moon, to be detected by the seismographs. Jones noted that much of the lunar soil is loose and dissipative. Without data on the specific frequency response of the seismographs, and their signal processing circuits, and the tightness of coupling between the seismographs and the lunar bedrock, it is difficult to predict the sensitivity to Frank's ice comets. Certainly the detectors were designed to sense hard rocks with great penetrating power, not big snowballs. Thus the absence of lunar seismograph data does not invalidate Frank's ice comet hypothesis. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 8 14:03:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25741; Tue, 8 May 2001 13:59:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 13:59:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 13:59:54 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Call for Authors: Essay on Various Science Topics (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Y6dUu2.0.6I6.Dv5-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42454 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See below. They want papers on controversies. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 15:02:03 -0700 From: "Daniel L. MacIsaac" Reply-To: "phys-l@lists.nau.edu: Forum for Physics Educators" To: PHYS-L@lists.nau.edu Subject: Call for Authors: Essay on Various Science Topics > Acclaimed reference publisher seeks contributors for new series about > contemporary scientific disputes. Series is aimed at high school students > and early undergraduates. Articles pay well and carry bylines. In the > Physical Sciences and Astronomy chapters, current topics needing writers > include: > > * cost of high-energy laboratories > * cold fusion > * neutrinos and rest mass > * Pluto: A planet? > * Supernova 1987A > * threat of "space debris" in Earth's orbit > > Above is not a complete list of current topics. To learn more about the > project, and to view the complete topic list, go to > www.schlagergroup.com/dispute.htm. Or, contact the series' editor, Neil > Schlager, at neil@schlagergroup.com. > Dan MacIsaac, Assistant Professor of Physics and Astronomy, Northern AZ Univ danmac@nau.edu http://purcell.phy.nau.edu PHYS-L list owner From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 8 14:23:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02899; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:20:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:20:43 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010508164802.02942750@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 17:20:47 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: More About the Small Comet Theory In-Reply-To: <002501c0d818$6c68dc00$0b7bccd1@asus> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Fso6j2.0._i.gC6-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42455 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >Mitchell Jones provides an interesting analysis of the Frank Ice Comet >hypothesis, and asks why don't the lunar seismographs detect them? I have a more direct question: Why don't telescopes detect them? The moon has been under intense observation for hundreds of years with the best telescopes in the world. Objects the size of large buildings would have been visible by 1900 or so, as I recall. Jones estimates there should be ~1063 impacts per day, and with energy releases somewhere between 600 to 20,000 tons of TNT. I presume the impacts would scattered evenly across the lunar landscape -- which may be incorrect. But if it is more or less right, at least 300 of these impacts would be visible to observers on earth every day. Surely they would kick up an giant pile of dirt and dust. There is no air to hold the dust, but on the other hand it falls back more slowly than on earth. Think of the rocks and dirt thrown up by a WWI shell. Most of the particles were too heavy to be suspended or significantly impeded by air. They fell to earth quickly, but for a few seconds they formed a gigantic round cloud of material visible from miles away on earth, and large enough to be seen with a telescope from earth to moon. I do not know how powerful WWI shells were, but I am sure they were smaller than 600 tons of TNT! The biggest battleship shells ever fired were 2700 lbs (1.4 tons). If Jones' first estimate of 20,000 tons is correct, that would be the equivalent of a thousand Hiroshima-size nuclear bombs going off on the moon every day, which would be impossible to miss. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 8 16:19:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA25265; Tue, 8 May 2001 16:17:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:17:55 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010508164802.02942750@pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010508164802.02942750@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 13:15:22 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: More About the Small Comet Theory Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"sqxUV1.0.t96.Qw7-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42456 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Jed - > I have a more direct question: Why don't telescopes detect them? Perhaps they have. Fuzzy globs have shown up on scopes hunting for them. I even saw a strange faint glowing patch-like 'meteor' on a very clear starlight night back in the mid-60's. Sightings like that don't pack much weight when they're odd and rare like that, but I know what I saw was a patch of dim light of about apparent lunar diameter, moving fast and persisting only briefly in a manner similar to a meteor. Must have been one of the bigger ones. Looked like what an arc searchlight beam would look like playing on clouds, but this was a very clear dark night with zero clouds, way out in the country. My notion about these things is that maybe they are *very* loosely aggregated, perhaps even to the point that a spacecraft might survive a direct impact - basically just a cloud of fine particles. Whoosh! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 8 22:49:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA07843; Tue, 8 May 2001 22:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 22:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <038801c0d824$c0150840$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: The Tunguska "Event" Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 20:08:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ul1WE.0.Rw1._dD-w"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42457 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: Snip. I think you are neglecting ablation by aerodynamic drag on a 40,000 tonne, ~ 50 meter diameter, (~150 ft dia) "dirty snowball" hitting the atmosphere at ~ 50,000 meters/second (~Mach 150!) and what a jet aircraft flying at Mach 1.0 can do to your windows if the pilot aims (the shock wave)at your house. IOW, the aircraft can disappear into thin air once it's kinetic energy has been converted to a shockwave in the atmosphere. I think the shockwave from MIR could've easily leveled a city without touching it. 12 Megatons worth of H bomb set off at 8 Km elevation probably wouldn't do as much *blast* damage as a directed sonic boom from a comet that was "dissipated" by ablation at a much higher altitude. Probably the core of the Tunguska "comet" was only the size of a baseball by the time the 5x10^16 joule shockwave leveled a 80 Km diameter patch of forest in Siberia (1908). Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 01:08:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA02305; Wed, 9 May 2001 01:07:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 01:07:26 -0700 Message-ID: <037e01c0d81a$a5377bc0$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Scientists urge killer asteroid prevention plan - Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 18:57:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D7F0.B3583840" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"thtHu1.0.SZ.xgF-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42458 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D7F0.B3583840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Getting serious? http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/08/asteroid.impacts.ap/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D7F0.B3583840 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - Sci-Tech - Space - Scientists urge killer asteroid prevention plan - May 8, 2001.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - Sci-Tech - Space - Scientists urge killer asteroid prevention plan - May 8, 2001.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/08/asteroid.impacts.ap/index.html [DOC#45] BASEURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html ORIGURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/08/asteroid.impacts.ap/index.html Modified=E08C9A701AD8C00129 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0D7F0.B3583840-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 01:13:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA11060; Wed, 9 May 2001 01:12:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 01:12:26 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3AED91F4.82639CB8@ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 00:56:33 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind Resent-Message-ID: <"hXtNy2.0.Di2.elF-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42459 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ed Storms wrote: >After you were "born again" into this new, identical being ***{You keep using the word "identical." However, I am explicitly saying that the new being is *not* identical. While he possesses the understandings you possessed at the time of your death, he does not possess your memories, and his body may be radically different--he may not even be a member of the human species, in fact. --MJ}*** , how would you know >that this process had occurred? ***{The only way to know that the process occurred is by means of the reasoning we have been discussing--to wit: (a) the fact that you are alive now proves that conditions exist which are capable of bringing you from a state of nonexistence into a state of existence; (b) the vastness, complexity, and ever changing nature of the universe suggests that, after you die, those conditions will eventually occur again; and (c) logic requires that, if they do, you will live again. --MJ}*** Would you remember your previous existence? If >not, what is the point? ***{When I came into this world, I did not remember any previous lives, despite the likelihood that I had existed in this universe before. Therefore, by your premise, there could have been no point to my life. Yet, in fact, there obviously was a point: my life was an opportunity to enjoy, to learn, to grow, and to advance my understandings relative to those I had when I came into the world. What more justification does life require? As for the absence of conscious memories of a prior life, what is the big loss? Granted, you would not want to be stuck in a rut from which you never made any progress, always coming back, at the beginning of the next life, precisely the same way you were at the beginning of the previous one. However, to make progress from one life to the next, does not require that conscious memories be retained. If a person has a head start, relative to the intellectual development he had at the beginning of his previous life, because the understandings he had at the end of that life are retained, then he will not have to repeat the laborious learning process that enabled him to build up those understandings. Instead, he will find that he has "innate talent" or "natural ability" in the areas where those understandings apply, and he will whiz through his studies in those areas. I would add that the retention of conscious memories would in many respects be disadvantageous. If you remembered your previous mother, for example, you would probably feel less loyal to your present mother. And if you remembered every mother you ever had, across eons of time and space, all the way back to lives in which you were a fish or a bug, I suspect that you would be hopelessly confused in your problem solving efforts as a human. :-) Bottom line: there is a point to life, even if you do not remember any previous lives when you come into the world. --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] >> ***{I occasionally have vivid dreams that the credulous might characterize >> as memories, but that is not the label I place on them. --MJ}*** > >If this is the case, why are you raising the subject of dreams? ***{Because what you term "memories of prior lives," I term "dreams." :-) --MJ}*** What would you >accept as evidence of a past existence? ***{The only evidence for past lives is the reasoning that I described above. When sincere and level-headed people claim to have memories of prior lives, they are for the most part merely misinterpreting their dreams. Why do I say that? Because none of them can propose a non-absurd mechanism by which information might be transferred from the brains of dead people to those of the living. Instead they all, like you, are forced to invoke an "unseen world" the existence of which is incompatible with the world of the senses. --MJ}*** [snip] >> ***{Being able to reason requires one thing only: a command of language. >> Since beliefs are held in the form of statements, they require language as >> well. That means we acquire the capacity to reason at exactly the same time >> we acquire the capacity to form beliefs. The implication: it is impossible >> to acquire beliefs before one is able to reason. --MJ}*** > >I suggest these assertions are at odds with a large body of psychological >experience. A wide range of study shows that people and animals reason >without the >use of language. ***{Ed, I have stated very explicitly what I mean by reason, and you have agreed with that definition. To refresh your memory, here it is again: (1) You state, as accurately as you can, the question to be answered. (2) You state, as accurately as you can, the various possible answers to that question. (3) You systematically search for factual information that contradicts those answers, until all of them have been eliminated but one. (4) The answer that remains, however implausible, is what you must accept as the truth. Given that is what "reason" means, it is obviously nonsense to claim that "A wide range of study shows that people and animals reason without the use of language," because the entire process, as defined, is based on the use of language. What those studies actually show, in fact, is that some animals, particularly mammals, choose--which means: they imagine what will happen if they do A, then imagine what will happen if they do B, and choose on the basis of imagined sensations of pleasure and pain. For example: a deer sees a tiger crouched near a water hole, and imagines two sequences of events: she gets a nice drink of cool clear water, after which she is killed and eaten; or she drinks from the mud puddle at her feet, and lives. Result: the pain associated with the first sequence of mental images prompts her to drink from the mud puddle instead. Bottom line: the fact that animals choose does not imply that they reason. --Mitchell Jones}*** In addition, your statement depends on how you define "belief". >A person can acquire a "belief" in God by simply being raised in a religious >family ***{In my usage, a belief is a statement upholding some truth. As such, it is of necessity couched in the terms of language. Hence belief, like reasoning, requires the use of language. Result: it is impossible to acquire beliefs before one can reason. Of course, one can acquire memories before one can use language, and one can choose on the basis of those memories. For example, the pre-verbal child touches the hot frying pan, burns the crap out of himself, and remembers not to touch it again. Some would say that he now "believes" the hot frying pan will burn him if he touches it, but that is not my usage. I would say that he associates pain with the thought of touching the hot pan, or, more accurately, that his expectation of touching the hot pan involves pain. As to whether a child can acquire a belief in God simply by virtue of being raised in a religious family, it depends on the child, upon the degree of talent for reasoning that he brings with him into the world, upon the amount of coercion his parents are willing to apply to force his thoughts into the desired mold, upon his freedom to escape from his parents if they mistreat him, and on many other things. --Mitchell Jones}*** (or in your case, the opposite result ***{When I said I never believed in God, I did not mean my parents were atheists. They were, in fact, believers; and they attempted to pass their beliefs on to me. However, I considered those ideas to be absurd from the very first time I heard them, back when I was two or three. (Yeah, I know: I was a bizarre kid. I never believed in Santa Claus, either. :-) --MJ}*** However, a "belief" in the Second >Law, I admit requires some logic and language. ***{Understandings result from the reasoning that one does, or from the lack thereof--which means: the less one reasons about one's experiences, the more vulnerable one becomes to the influence of one's "environment"--i.e., other people. The fact that beliefs and reasoning both require language, in other words, merely means that one has the *opportunity* to base one's beliefs on reasoning, not that one must necessarily do so. --MJ}*** >> In addition, we >> >all, no matter how logical, are influenced by our experiences in >> >nonlogical ways. >> >> ***{That is true of people who reject reason or who apply it >> inconsistently. For people who accept reason and apply it consistently, >> however, it is only to the extent that they make mistakes, that their >> experiences influence them in illogical ways. --MJ}*** > >"To the extent that they make mistakes", now there is another rub. I >suggest a >more useful description is "to the extent that logic fails". ***{That would certainly be "more useful" if one wanted an excuse to abandon logic. But without logic, one cannot reason, and reason is the most powerful instrument one has for finding the truth. Therefore, why would one abandon the most powerful instrument one has for finding the truth? The answer: one would do that only if the goal were to surrender oneself to the influences of "environment"--which means: to "fit in" with "significant others" rather than to find the truth. This is, in fact, precisely why all religions, and all religious cults, explicitly disavow logic and reason, and encourage their followers to rely instead on blind faith, "holy" books, the supposed "wisdom" of "holy" men, etc. (It is hard to separate a man from his wallet, if you encourage him to judge everything, including your teachings, on the basis of reason. :-) --MJ}*** >> >This is just a reality of life that needs to be acknowledged because we >>can do >> >nothing about this process. If we ignore the process, we will gradually >> >become >> >someone we did not expect to become, all the while claiming to be doing >> >everything >> >in a completely logical way. >> >> ***{We all make mistakes, so nobody does everything in a completely logical >> way. However, those who reject reason, or who use it inconsistently, are >> much more illogical than persons who accept it and use it consistently. >> --MJ}*** > >This is circular reasoning. Frankly, I see some of the worst sins being >committed >in the name of logic. Now, you might argue that these were the fault of >bad logic >or not the logical path you would have chosen. Nevertheless, the sinner >was using >logic is the most constant way possible, based on the initial assumptions. ***{Logic is merely a tool of reasoning, and has no utility outside of that context. When people with healthy brains fail to move toward the truth, the fault invariably lies in their inconsistent practice of reasoning--i.e., in their exempting of certain beliefs from the purview of reason. When that happens, it is always because they are focused on the interpersonal implications of a belief rather than on its truth value. They *want* to believe it, because they know that if they come to disbelieve it, they will be rejected by their significant others. To avoid such an outcome, they exempt that belief from the reasoning process: they do *not* state the question which the belief attempts to answer; or they do not state all the possible answers to the question; or they do not attempt to find information which contradicts all of those answers (which must perforce include the belief itself); or they do not accept the answer that survives as the truth. The problem, in short, is that reasoning will only pull you toward the truth, over time, if you apply it consistently Bottom line: when people do not move toward the truth, the fault does not lie in reason, but in themselves. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> complex matter can apparently be moved in >> >and out of our reality at will by certain individuals. >> >> ***{I have no doubt that Sai Baba can make his followers money disappear, >> for example. :-) --MJ}*** > >His follower's money is used to build schools in India that teach >technology. Sai >Baba accepts no money for himself. ***{Does he have a house? A car? Servants? An office? Employees? If so, then he derives benefits from his followers' money, irrespective of the bookkeeping practices that he employs. --MJ}*** He believes for India to come out of the dark >ages, technology must be applied throughout society. His goal is to >provide the >means to teach how this tool should be developed and used for the benefit >of his >country and eventually the world. While he carries a message from the other >reality, he also recognizes what is needed in this world to allow his basic >message to have meaning. His basic message is the same as Christ and many >other >people have taught the subject, i.e. we are not isolated individuals ***{In a division-of-labor society, we all specialize; and we depend on the mechanism of trade to obtain values produced by others. In that sense, we are all interdependent. --MJ}*** , but part of >a universal conscious ***{Our streams of consciousness are ultimately and irreducibly separate: I see through my eyes, but cannot see through yours; you see through your eyes, but cannot see through mine; and so on. These are unarguable, irrefutable, bedrock metaphysical facts. --MJ}*** and that we should love each another like bothers (sisters) >because we are all of one family. ***{Taken literally, the above statement would imply that you should love Hitler, Stalin, John Wayne Gacy, and the Boston Strangler "like brothers." But, of course, you don't. The question, therefore, is this: why do you affirm a moral precept that you do not, cannot, and should not practice? --MJ}*** This simple message has profound implications >that would take a whole literature to explore, as has been done already. ***{A good way to start comprehending the implications is to observe the misery that exists in third-world hell-holes such as India, where this sort of message has been immensely popular for a very long time. With sufficient reflection, it may perhaps begin to cross the mind that what India needs is a government which is constitutionally bound to protect property rights, and that the primary obstacle to its obtaining such a government is the widespread belief of its people that we are all one--i.e., that individual consciousness, and individual rights, do not exist. --MJ}*** >> This implies the existence >> >of a reality in which this matter and information can be stored and/or >>moved. >> >> ***{Yup: Sai Baba's bank account. :-) --MJ}*** > >Rather than being sarcastic, I suggest you learn something about Sai Baba. I >predict you will be surprised. ***{Actually, I was trying to be amusing. I even had a smiley at the end. --MJ}*** >Ed ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 01:15:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA15961; Wed, 9 May 2001 01:15:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 01:15:11 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000601c0d7c5$dccb1600$cde01f26@default> References: <000601c0d7c5$dccb1600$cde01f26@default> Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 01:48:32 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: Candidate for universal gravitational glue Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1222731559==_ma============" Resent-Message-ID: <"q69Rr2.0.7v3.FoF-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42460 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1222731559==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" peter Fred wrote' > >For the first time, we have a plausible, complete accounting of >matter and energy in the Universe. Expressed a fraction of the >critical density it goes like this: neutrinos, between 0.3% and 15%; >stars, 0.5%; baryons (total), 5%; matter (total), 40%; smooth, dark >energy, 60%; adding up to the critical density. This accounting is >consistent with the inflationary prediction of a flat Universe and >defines three dark-matter problems: Where are the dark baryons? >What is the nonbaryonic dark matter? What is the nature of the dark >energy? The leading candidate for the (optically) dark baryons is >diffuse hot gas; the leading candidates for the nonbaryonic dark >matter are slowly moving elementary particles left over from the >earliest moments (cold dark matter), such as axions or neutralinos; >the leading candidates for the dark energy involve fundamental >physics and include a cosmological constant (vacuum energy), a >rolling scalar field (quintessence), and light, frustrated >topological defects. > >(from >http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/9811454) After one of Misho Kaku's appearances on the Art Bell program, I posed this question to Hal Puthoff and never received an answer, so I apprecieate your posting this. Can anyone tell me what baryons are, smooth dark matter, smooth dark energy, I notice the cosmological constant is also referred to as vacuum energy, I suggested to Hal that perhaps part of the missing dark matter might be the ZPE. can anyone tell me what a scalar field is? What are frustrated topological defects? --============_-1222731559==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" RE: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
peter Fred wrote'


For the first time, we have a plausible, complete accounting of matter and energy in the Universe. Expressed a fraction of the critical density it goes like this: neutrinos, between 0.3% and 15%; stars, 0.5%; baryons (total), 5%; matter (total), 40%; smooth, dark energy, 60%; adding up to the critical density. This accounting is consistent with the inflationary prediction of a flat Universe and defines three dark-matter problems:  Where are the dark baryons? What is the nonbaryonic dark matter? What is the nature of the dark energy? The leading candidate for the (optically) dark baryons is diffuse hot gas; the leading candidates for the nonbaryonic dark matter are slowly moving elementary particles left over from the earliest moments (cold dark matter), such as axions or neutralinos; the leading candidates for the dark energy involve fundamental physics and include a cosmological constant (vacuum energy), a rolling scalar field (quintessence), and light, frustrated topological defects.
(from http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/9811454)

After one of Misho Kaku's appearances on the Art Bell program, I posed this question to Hal Puthoff and never received an answer, so I apprecieate your posting this. Can anyone tell me what baryons are, smooth dark matter, smooth dark energy, I notice the cosmological constant is also referred to as vacuum energy, I suggested to Hal that perhaps part of the missing dark matter might be the ZPE. can anyone tell me what a scalar field is? What are frustrated topological defects?
--============_-1222731559==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 02:00:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA00470; Wed, 9 May 2001 02:00:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 02:00:15 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 03:43:28 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: [svpvril] Fwd: Big Bang had musical start Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"OtoQa2.0.z6.USG-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42461 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Someone posted this on the SVP list. This fits pretty well with my last posting > >http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm? >storyID=187133&thesection=news&thesubsection=world > >Big Bang had musical start > >05.05.2001 By STEVE CONNOR >Scientists have recorded the music of creation in an experiment using >the astronomical equivalent of a time machine to go back to the >origin of the Universe. > >A telescope suspended from a high-altitude balloon circling the South >Pole has detected harmonic "notes," which rang out like a bell in the >first fractions of a second after the Big Bang. > >Cosmologists believe these minute ripples of sound became the "seeds" >of matter, which eventually led to the formation of stars, galaxies >and planets such as Earth. > >"Not only are we finding out the right notes of the Universe, we're >finding what key it's in," says Phil Mauskopf of Cardiff University, >the British team leader of the international Boomerang project to >investigate the cosmic background radiation - known to be the "echo" >of the Big Bang. > >Paolo de Bernadis, of the University of Rome and joint leader of the >Boomerang project, says the findings herald a new era in the >understanding of what happened during the moments when the Universe >was created. > >He says: "The early Universe is full of sound waves compressing and >rarefying matter and light, much like sound waves compress and rarefy >air inside a flute or a trumpet. For the first time the new data show >clearly the harmonics of these waves." I don't understand how sound waves could have transversed a vacuum. > >Andrew Lange, of the Californian Institute of Technology, the other >joint leader, says that before these latest findings, the Boomerang >telescope had been able to detect only one harmonic note of the Big >Bang. > >"Using a music analogy, we could tell what note we were seeing. Now >we see not just one, but three of these peaks, and can tell not only >which note but also what instrument," Lange says. > >The Boomerang experiment involves 36 scientists drawn from >universities and research institutes in Britain, Canada, Italy and >the United States. > >The latest results were released this week at a meeting of the >American Physical Society in Washington DC. This is a respectable venue! >The Boomerang telescope, flying 36.6km above Antarctica where >atmospheric interference is negligible, collected data on the >microwave radiation left over from the intense heat of the Big Bang >12 billion to 15 billion years ago. > >This microwave radiation was first detected in 1965, but it was not >until 1991 that Nasa's Cosmic Background Explorer satellite (Cobe) >detected signs of any structure within the radiation field that could >explain the origin of matter. > >Boomerang has now deciphered the nature of these structures, or >ripples in the microwave radiation, and results show they form a >harmonic series of angular scales like a musical score. Cool! > >This is important because if the background microwave radiation was >perfectly "smooth" and unperturbed, then it would be difficult for >existing cosmological theories to explain how matter could coalesce >under the influence of gravity into larger structures, eventually >leading to the formation of stars and galaxies. I noted with interest his use of the word smooth. > >The findings are doubly important because they relate to the first >fractions of a second after the Big Bang, when the Universe expanded >from a minute point in space to something billions of times bigger, >the so-called inflationary period. > >Mauskopf says: "These results are a tremendous confirmation of the >inflationary model, and also agree extremely well with measurements >of other astronomers using completely different methods." > >The Boomerang images cover 3 per cent of the sky and are the >forerunners of a project to map the microwave background radiation >using two satellites, the first of which is due to be launched this >year. > >- INDEPENDENT >--- End forwarded message --- > > > >Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos. > >Email your snail mail address to info@svpvril.com. > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 02:04:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA05197; Wed, 9 May 2001 02:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 02:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <03b101c0d85e$2bbe6f80$ba8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: The Tunguska "event" Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 03:00:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0D834.29D38180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"JPEe11.0.pG1.YUG-w"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42462 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0D834.29D38180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great computer generated pictures. http://sherpa.sandia.gov/planet-impact/comet/ Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0D834.29D38180 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="3D Comet Impact Simulations.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="3D Comet Impact Simulations.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://sherpa.sandia.gov/planet-impact/comet/ [InternetShortcut] URL=http://sherpa.sandia.gov/planet-impact/comet/ Modified=80DCEAB55DD8C001F1 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0D834.29D38180-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 02:53:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA26106; Wed, 9 May 2001 02:53:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 02:53:32 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c0d865$55aa6220$87b4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: The Tunguska "Event" & Water Balloon Warfare Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 03:49:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"nWrTA2.0.qN6.REH-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42463 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The way I see it Mitchell, ferrying 150 ft diameter (40,000 tonne) refractory-coated water balloons into space filled with seawater and having them re-enter on command at 10,000 meters/second would set up a bow-shock wave equivalent of a 1.0 Megaton bomb that could be directed at, and level any city. OTOH, ostrich eggs shot out of the Space Shuttle using a rail gun.... :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 06:24:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA18167; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:24:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 06:24:01 -0700 Message-ID: <001301c0d880$59655300$58181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 05:05:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"clPrs3.0.eR4.mJK-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42464 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes He has what is called the ping pong device, channeling magnetic fields from one output coil to another. Tesla was the pioneer with his spark gap pumping. Perhaps if someone can find Telsa Patent US #685,957 it may have something related. Would apprediate some help in finding it. Thanks Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:54 PM Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) >Bruce: > > > Some of inventors are PHD's in Electrical Engineering > > that have been working on this technology for years. > >One of those wouldn't be Dr. Bearden, would it? > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 06:52:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA27010; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:51:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 06:51:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF94A82.8EC8624E@informatics.net> Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 08:47:46 -0500 From: Jon Flickinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) References: <001301c0d880$59655300$58181ad8@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3f6Ps1.0.wb6.RjK-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42465 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bruce, Tesla patent # 685,957 discloses " Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant Energy" and is viewable on the USPTO by searching at link- http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/srchnum.htm A complete alphabetical listing of all Tesla's US patents are available at- http://www.mall-usa.com/BPCS/alpha_tesla.html These all appear to be available on the USPTO but one needs to have a special "tiff" viewer such as 'Alternatiff' which is available at- http://www.mieweb.com/alternatiff/ Regards, Jon Flickinger Bruce Meland wrote: > Yes He has what is called the ping pong device, channeling magnetic fields > from one output coil to another. Tesla was the pioneer with his spark gap > pumping. Perhaps if someone can find Telsa Patent US #685,957 it may have > something related. Would apprediate some help in finding it. Thanks Bruce > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Date: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:54 PM > Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) > > >Bruce: > > > > > Some of inventors are PHD's in Electrical Engineering > > > that have been working on this technology for years. > > > >One of those wouldn't be Dr. Bearden, would it? > > > >- Rick Monteverde > >Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 07:55:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA17126; Wed, 9 May 2001 07:54:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:54:48 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c0d88d$786d6f00$df181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 06:39:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"CSuOa1.0.WB4.teL-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42466 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Jon; I was unable to download any info on 685,957 Could you download any info on this patent and email to me. thanks Bruce Also check out the Richardson Patent US 4,077,00 and Gray US 4,595,975 I was able to get info on these -----Original Message----- From: Jon Flickinger To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 6:52 AM Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) >Bruce, > >Tesla patent # 685,957 discloses " Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant >Energy" and is viewable on the USPTO by searching at link- > >http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/srchnum.htm > >A complete alphabetical listing of all Tesla's US patents are available at- > >http://www.mall-usa.com/BPCS/alpha_tesla.html > >These all appear to be available on the USPTO but one needs to have a special >"tiff" viewer such as 'Alternatiff' which is available at- > >http://www.mieweb.com/alternatiff/ > >Regards, >Jon Flickinger > >Bruce Meland wrote: > >> Yes He has what is called the ping pong device, channeling magnetic fields >> from one output coil to another. Tesla was the pioneer with his spark gap >> pumping. Perhaps if someone can find Telsa Patent US #685,957 it may have >> something related. Would apprediate some help in finding it. Thanks Bruce >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rick Monteverde >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Date: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:54 PM >> Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) >> >> >Bruce: >> > >> > > Some of inventors are PHD's in Electrical Engineering >> > > that have been working on this technology for years. >> > >> >One of those wouldn't be Dr. Bearden, would it? >> > >> >- Rick Monteverde >> >Honolulu, HI > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 08:07:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA22299; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:05:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:05:52 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010509100117.00948c80@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:05:47 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) In-Reply-To: <001301c0d880$59655300$58181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"N67WO1.0.FS5.EpL-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42467 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:05 AM 5/9/01 -0700, you wrote: >Perhaps if someone can find Telsa Patent US #685,957 it may have >something related. It is published at http://www.uspto.gov I am currently gathering printable copy. Also.... Bearden has a PHD ?! Last I saw was a posted resume with BS in nuke power. Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1@yahoo.com cjford1@swbell.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 08:15:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25450; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:14:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:14:17 -0700 Message-ID: <008201c0d8b4$0189e0e0$6f56ccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010508164802.02942750@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: More About the Small Comet Theory Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:14:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"2LSKn2.0.VD6.9xL-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42468 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 2:20 PM Subject: Re: More About the Small Comet Theory > Mike Carrell wrote: > > >Mitchell Jones provides an interesting analysis of the Frank Ice Comet > >hypothesis, and asks why don't the lunar seismographs detect them? > > I have a more direct question: Why don't telescopes detect them? A good question. My answer is the same as for moonquakes. Frank states that the ice comets are loose aggregates of frozen water, held together by mutual gravity. Their impact will be a big squish, not a plop. One could conjecture that the impact might cause fast liquefaction, sufficient to dampen moondust. Or instant vaporization. We don't know. Rather than look to the moon for verification, it is better to look at the data accumulated by Frank and presented on his website. I assume that Jed has done this, as he admonishes everyone to read the relevant papers. He and his associates have been very thorough in documentation. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 11:24:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA21310; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:23:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:23:42 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010508133450.0290a390@pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010508133450.0290a390@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:23:48 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Wasting energy as a private and sacred ritual Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"2XhKC.0.sC5.jiO-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42469 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >policymakers to protect the American way of life. The American way >of life is a blessed one." I agree, we need to find sources of energy which will allow us to continue our way of life. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 11:24:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA21397; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:23:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:23:53 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:23:48 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Fwd: Announcement from Jim Cox Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"oxpTe1.0.8E5.siO-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42470 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Has anybody ever heard of this guy? >X-Sender: bailey@shell14.ba.best.com > >(Received in Feb. I was awaiting more info.): > >Patrick: > Take note of the following items and >post/distribute as you see fit: > > 1. The regular AG Conference held in Reno is >canceled for the year 2001, in deference to Jerry >Decker's new conference in Dallas June 16/17 (bush >country). I will offer him a video report/update on my >"dean drive" research for showing. > > 2. A new start-up company is being formed in Reno >called Inertiacraft Technology Corporation (ITC), and >a catalog sent out shortly offering many exciting new >products for sale related to inertia experiments and >propulsion, as well as a new website for the same. The >core products will be GILS Thrust Modules in the 10, >100, 1000 and 10,000 lb lift category for various >customer applications (to be developed over 5 years). > > 3. My phone number listed at the >website is no longer operative. I will be >transitioning over to a new location during February >and will post a new number when it is available >(unless I get a cell phone). Contact point will be >Mr.Kita for any questions or problems. Accordingly, >there is a suspension of newsletter activity since >everything is boxed up for moving. > > 4. The new company (ITC) will hold an investor's >meeting in the month of April/May in Reno. Attendence >is by invitation only to qualified investors. Purpose >is to raise $1,000,000 to form the core corporate team >and launch the new product line. Fee for the meeting >is $1000 and is limited to 100 persons. I currently >have four prototype items ready for commercialization >(to be on display). Highlight of the meeting will be >demonstration of the 4-unit GILS self-lifter. Also, >there will be a presentation of concept designs for >the Personal Back-Pak Self Lifter and the Two >Passenger Inertiacraft Vehicle. Inertial propulsion >technology is in its infancy so a review of the >technology issues (such a clutch reliability and >passenger safety) will be offered, as well as patent >status, followed by a question/answer session. Contact >Jim Cox directly via e-mail (bootstrapcox@yahoo.com> >if think you are qualified and desire to attend. > > 5. My heartfelt thanks go out to all of my >supporters over the last 3-4 years of AGN >subscribers/conference attendees (despite the >shoe-string operation) but which gave me time and a >little financial aid to pursue by inertial propulsion >investigations. You all now represent the core team >from which we can now enter a new age in the >transportation industry that could parallel the >information technology revolution we have already >experienced. Update your resumes! Bill Gates, I am on >your tail!!! > > 6. I now have a video (30 minute)data summary of all >the key tests on the Gravito-Inertial Lift System that >prove indisputably its stunning unidirectional lift >characteristics. This includes, besides the bathscale >50% weightloss (1999 AG Conference), but the digital >electronic strain gauge weightloss of 90%, and recent >"action" and "reaction" force transducer measurements >as well as vectoring on ball bearing wheels. This >video cost is $50 including shipment. Make checks to >James E. Cox Enterprise, P.O.Box 71151, Reno, Nevada >89570-1151. > > 7. Finally, a special thanks to the Bay Area Support >Group consisting of Dr.Bailey, who has been my >webmaster (the blind leading the blind), with whom I >expect to do additional business vs LHMC projects, and >Creon Levitt at ISSO for their conference support and >handsome consulting payments regarding AG tradeoffs. >Lastly, a long and loyal friend, Ron Kita, who is >definitely FAMILY! > >-- JIM COX From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 11:45:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00830; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:44:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:44:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:44:35 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Major crash at eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qXDtl2.0.uC.L0P-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42471 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eskimo.com had a major crash last night, with serious damage to active files. If your vortex-L messages never appear, better re-send. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 12:15:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17624; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:15:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:15:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:15:02 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Frank's black fluffball theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8Pnah1.0.CJ4.vSP-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42472 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Rick Monteverde wrote: > My notion about these things is that maybe they are *very* loosely > aggregated, perhaps even to the point that a spacecraft might survive > a direct impact - basically just a cloud of fine particles. Whoosh! Right, and if they exist, why aren't they disrupted by solar wind in the way normal comets are? Why doesn't their ice evaporate in vacuum? And why aren't they visible like small asteroids? Even black paint looks white in sunlight against the background of space. They would have to have a waterproof coating, and be ultra-flat black. Something like clouds of black feathers. Or like aerogel made of photocopier toner, where each carbon grain has an ice particle inside. We have an analogy in earth-based snowflakes. Snow rarely falls as individual hex-crystals, instead it falls as clumps. Whenever any hex-crystals collide, they have less collisional cross-section presented to the wind, yet still have the same mass. They fall faster through the air than the neighboring individual crystals, and so they bash into other crystals and scavange up everything in their path, at least until they grow so large that internal forces cause them to split. Maybe the small comets are almost LITERALLY snowflakes: made from grains of cosmic dust/ice which are small enough to be buffeted by the solar wind, and where large clumps arise which slowly grow as they scavange up dust, and fission when they grow too large. Sounds like an environmental niche where life could exist, no? Amino acid detrius on the surface of plastic-coated ice grains. Frank's book notes that such a thing would make a weak IR flash when it hit the moon, and would leave no crater. I wonder if hypervelocity fluffballs would "frost" your spacecraft windows and camera lenses. If space is full of them, I would think they'd turn up as fast-moving black dots occluding the images of stars or the sun. Aim your scope at a bright star, stick a fast photocell on the eyepiece, and listen for clicks. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 12:22:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA19858; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:20:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:20:07 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010509151831.029154e0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:19:59 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: CA power companies may be manipulating prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"sm_Lf.0.qr4.cXP-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42473 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here are some quotes from an article that was on the San Francisco Chronicle web site until this afternoon. It seems the power companies may be manipulating the supply of electricity in order to inflate the cost. What a shock! The big energy companies playing foolish games for short-term benefit. Customers large and small will reduce consumption and install their own generators. In a few years the California power companies will be swamped with excess facilities. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Soaring Electric Use More Fiction Than Fact Chronicle investigation finds power companies manipulate data to excuse their towering rates Sunday, March 11, 2001 Power companies say it so often, and with such certainty, that it has become a virtual mantra: "Skyrocketing" energy use by Californians is a root cause of the state's power crisis, and justification for surging electricity prices. But a computer analysis of electricity usage data by The Chronicle reveals that the mantra is a myth -- that overall growth in electricity demand hasn't been nearly as great as the industry portrays it. . . . "The claims that demand growth is rampant and that it was totally unexpected and due to the Internet economy, to Silicon Valley, or server farms, or people recharging cell phones -- that's bogus," said Tom Kelly, assistant executive director of the California Energy Commission. "About as bogus as you can get." The Chronicle's findings are based on data collected by the California Independent System Operator, a manager of the state's electricity grid. They show: -- Total electricity consumption in California increased only 4.75 percent in 2000 from 1999, a sharp contrast to claims of industry representatives, who have repeatedly relied on isolated, loose or selective comparisons that make growth appear as high as 20 percent. In fact, the single greatest hour of electricity usage in 2000 was actually lower than any peak demand period in 1999 or 1998. -- Average peak demand -- the average of the highest hour of electricity usage for each day -- increased only 4.79 percent from 1999 to 2000. Even during the months of May to September in 2000, when the greatest spikes in electricity usage occur, demand growth was only 8.31 percent higher than the same period the year before. -- More than 30 days of critical power shortage warnings, so-called Stage 3 emergencies, and two days of blackouts this year occurred at times of moderate energy use -- levels often below those at which neither warnings nor blackouts have occurred in the past. The findings appear to buttress suspicions that the "skyrocketing demand" explanation for rising energy prices is a cover for what is really happening -- that power companies have simply started charging more for an essential commodity, regardless of whether it is in short supply. . . . The industry-backed Edison Electric Institute said in a report that electricity demand grew by anywhere from 5 percent to 21 percent during the spring of 2000, compared with the same period a year earlier. . . . Also, nowhere did Edison's report note that the peak hour of 2000, a load of 43,784 megawatts on Aug. 16, was actually lower than the peak hours of either of the previous two years -- 45,884 on July 12, 1999, or 44,406 on Sept. 1, 1998. . . . MARKET MANIPULATION? Consumer representatives and some politicians have long suspected that, rather than dire imbalances between supply and demand, market manipulation is behind the crisis. Generators and power marketers adamantly deny this, saying they have done everything they could to keep the lights on. They say they ran aging, decrepit plants at higher-than-normal levels last summer to accommodate what they described as unprecedented demand. They also say that, at great expense, they delayed much-needed maintenance in order to keep the power flowing. Their claims have received some support from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, which said in a report last month that it found no evidence power companies were using maintenance schedules to manipulate supply. The report, however, was heavily qualified by the FERC, which said it did not investigate other forms of manipulation. Moreover, the agency acknowledged that the bulk of its investigation was conducted by simply calling power plants and questioning them over the telephone. . . . While average electricity usage during the heaviest hours last year increased by less than 5 percent, prices charged by power companies to the utilities that deliver juice to consumers increased more than 289 percent. In June, the cost of a megawatt hour increased more than fivefold, going from the 1999 level of $30.53 to $170.60. In October, prices doubled over the same period a year earlier, going from $53.47 to $111.04. And in December -- despite a 1.46 percent decline in electricity usage from the previous December -- peak wholesale electricity prices hit $425.59. They'd been $31.88 one year before. . . . From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 12:46:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00935; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:46:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:46:23 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010509152148.02907e30@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:46:01 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wasting energy as a private and sacred ritual In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010508133450.0290a390@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010508133450.0290a390@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"IfdvW.0.DE.BwP-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42474 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >>policymakers to protect the American way of life. The American way of >>life is a blessed one." > >I agree, we need to find sources of energy which will allow us to continue >our way of life. I think we have already found one in the form of cold fusion. However, if it does not pan out, we can maintain the American way of life a lot more cheaply by buying Japanese and European technology. Apparently the vice president thinks we are too stupid to make efficient machinery ourselves, so I suppose will have to buy from our commercial rivals who somehow manage to squeeze three times more productivity out of their factory machinery, air conditioners and washing machines. If the price of electricity remains high, there is no doubt customers will begin buying equipment from foreign manufacturers. The administration's policy is to tell our manufacturers they should go on making obsolete, inefficient machinery. This is like Big Three automaker policy in 1970: "Don't worry about Mitsubishi, they will never sell here." It is a recipe for disaster. The Japanese have been standing inside for twenty years, making no effort to sell heating and air conditioning equipment and refrigerators in the United States. I believe they made a gentleman's agreement with the U.S. trade negotiators and corporations not to destroy our domestic industry. (They have little need for imports or exports in their insular, isolated economy.) The other Asian manufacturers are gradually learning how to make equipment as cost efficient as the Japanese, and they may not be so willing to cooperate with U.S. trade negotiators and corporations. This has nothing to do with people or lifestyles -- we're talking about how much energy machinery requires to get do the job done. It makes no difference to your "blessed lifestyle" how the pump in your dishwashing machine works, except that an efficient one will cost less over the long term, last longer, and make less noise in the kitchen. This is a technical issue, not a spiritual one. Half the trouble with the energy debate in the U.S. is that it has somehow gotten mixed up with our macho self-image. Also, there is a myth that Americans do not need or want to make machinery more efficient -- as if we enjoy throwing away money for no reason. The vice president thinks that conservation is a "private virtue." That would only be true if each person had a private supply of air and water. As long as we must all breath the same air, gas mileage and pollution will be public matters. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 13:13:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10859; Wed, 9 May 2001 13:12:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:12:38 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01c0d8b9$dfa29f20$87181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Wasting energy as a private and sacred ritual Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:57:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"1AsDF1.0.Zf2.qIQ-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42476 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The American Way of Life is being reconstructed and the slugglish economy brought by higher energy prices will bring it back down to a reasonable level. -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 11:24 AM Subject: Re: Wasting energy as a private and sacred ritual >>policymakers to protect the American way of life. The American way >>of life is a blessed one." > >I agree, we need to find sources of energy which will allow us to >continue our way of life. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 13:15:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11731; Wed, 9 May 2001 13:14:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:14:07 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF9A561.6AFA6E6E@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 16:15:29 -0400 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Announcement from Jim Cox References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"l8Hx32.0.5t2.EKQ-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42477 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > > Has anybody ever heard of this guy? Cox publishes Antigravity News whose site was in the message you forwarded: http://www.padrak.com/agn/ I did not know that he did direct research also. Regards, Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 13:16:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08535; Wed, 9 May 2001 13:06:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:06:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF9A279.1E8D4898@informatics.net> Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:03:06 -0500 From: Jon Flickinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) References: <000701c0d88d$786d6f00$df181ad8@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4s0gN1.0.D52.EDQ-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42475 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bruce, Sorry, but I don't have any Tesla patents available to download. You can view and print out any patent info from the USPTO with the correct tiff viewer plug-in installed in your browser.... Regards, Jon F Bruce Meland wrote: > Thanks Jon; I was unable to download any info on 685,957 Could you download > any info on this patent and email to me. thanks Bruce Also check out the > Richardson Patent US 4,077,00 and Gray US 4,595,975 I was able to get info > on these > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Flickinger > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Date: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 6:52 AM > Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) > > >Bruce, > > > >Tesla patent # 685,957 discloses " Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant > >Energy" and is viewable on the USPTO by searching at link- > > > >http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/srchnum.htm > > > >A complete alphabetical listing of all Tesla's US patents are available at- > > > >http://www.mall-usa.com/BPCS/alpha_tesla.html > > > >These all appear to be available on the USPTO but one needs to have a > special > >"tiff" viewer such as 'Alternatiff' which is available at- > > > >http://www.mieweb.com/alternatiff/ > > > >Regards, > >Jon Flickinger > > > >Bruce Meland wrote: > > > >> Yes He has what is called the ping pong device, channeling magnetic > fields > >> from one output coil to another. Tesla was the pioneer with his spark > gap > >> pumping. Perhaps if someone can find Telsa Patent US #685,957 it may have > >> something related. Would apprediate some help in finding it. Thanks Bruce > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Rick Monteverde > >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >> Date: Monday, May 07, 2001 9:54 PM > >> Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) > >> > >> >Bruce: > >> > > >> > > Some of inventors are PHD's in Electrical Engineering > >> > > that have been working on this technology for years. > >> > > >> >One of those wouldn't be Dr. Bearden, would it? > >> > > >> >- Rick Monteverde > >> >Honolulu, HI > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 13:47:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26624; Wed, 9 May 2001 13:46:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:46:42 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c0d8e2$735913c0$2445ccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010508133450.0290a390@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010508133450.0290a390@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010509152148.02907e30@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Wasting energy as a private and sacred ritual Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:47:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"5JHiZ2.0.pV6.noQ-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42478 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is a seductive human trait which is that if you can waste it, you are rich and powerful. To have to save is to be limited in choice and range. To conserve is to be poor. We are poor, in the long run, or our children will be. The one non-negotiable item is energy; all else can be recycled at some cost. A second problem is human time horizon, which warps return on investment calculations. With a mobile US population that may be in a house only a few years, it's hard to sell a system, or construction, with a thirty year payback. And it's hard to retrofit old houses, now occupied by people of limited resources. When you go to the store for a new fridge and the energy-efficient one costs more and has less space, who is going to do a ROI calculation? Don't confuse economy and efficiency in manufacture with economy and efficiency of operation. The Japanese are masters of manufacturing technology, thanks to the American Deming and the short sightedness of American manufacturers. There is no economy which is not within our grasp if not our will. With efficient manufacturing, the Japanese can produce efficient machine designs for a global market cheaper than the US can do in limited runs for a domestic market. SUVs are probably the most conspicuous example of macho waste. Mike Carrell > thomas malloy wrote: > > >>policymakers to protect the American way of life. The American way of > >>life is a blessed one." > > > >I agree, we need to find sources of energy which will allow us to continue > >our way of life. > > I think we have already found one in the form of cold fusion. However, if > it does not pan out, we can maintain the American way of life a lot more > cheaply by buying Japanese and European technology. Apparently the vice > president thinks we are too stupid to make efficient machinery ourselves, > so I suppose will have to buy from our commercial rivals who somehow manage > to squeeze three times more productivity out of their factory machinery, > air conditioners and washing machines. > > If the price of electricity remains high, there is no doubt customers will > begin buying equipment from foreign manufacturers. The administration's > policy is to tell our manufacturers they should go on making obsolete, > inefficient machinery. This is like Big Three automaker policy in 1970: > "Don't worry about Mitsubishi, they will never sell here." It is a recipe > for disaster. > > The Japanese have been standing inside for twenty years, making no effort > to sell heating and air conditioning equipment and refrigerators in the > United States. I believe they made a gentleman's agreement with the U.S. > trade negotiators and corporations not to destroy our domestic industry. > (They have little need for imports or exports in their insular, isolated > economy.) The other Asian manufacturers are gradually learning how to make > equipment as cost efficient as the Japanese, and they may not be so willing > to cooperate with U.S. trade negotiators and corporations. > > This has nothing to do with people or lifestyles -- we're talking about how > much energy machinery requires to get do the job done. It makes no > difference to your "blessed lifestyle" how the pump in your dishwashing > machine works, except that an efficient one will cost less over the long > term, last longer, and make less noise in the kitchen. This is a technical > issue, not a spiritual one. Half the trouble with the energy debate in the > U.S. is that it has somehow gotten mixed up with our macho self-image. > Also, there is a myth that Americans do not need or want to make machinery > more efficient -- as if we enjoy throwing away money for no reason. > > The vice president thinks that conservation is a "private virtue." That > would only be true if each person had a private supply of air and water. As > long as we must all breath the same air, gas mileage and pollution will be > public matters. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 13:53:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA28374; Wed, 9 May 2001 13:52:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:52:04 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:50:40 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Fwd: Announcement from Jim Cox Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"-K_Ox.0.Fx6.ptQ-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42479 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> 4. The new company (ITC) will hold an investor's >>meeting in the month of April/May in Reno. Attendence >>is by invitation only to qualified investors. Purpose >>is to raise $1,000,000 to form the core corporate team >>and launch the new product line. Fee for the meeting >>is $1000 and is limited to 100 persons. Wow! I'm sending in my thousand dollars right now, so I can be in on the meeting to to find out how I can invest the rest of my money in this! By the way, would everyone on Vortex please send me $100, then put your name at the top of the list and forward the message to everyone you know? Thanks, much appreciated. Sheesh. And people wonder why the term "antigravity" is such a dirty word. :( - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 14:02:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31196; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:00:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:00:30 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:59:47 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Frank's black fluffball theory Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"q76Jz3.0.Md7.j_Q-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42480 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bill - > Or like aerogel made of photocopier toner, where each > carbon grain has an ice particle inside. There you go. Those ice meteors that come in burn off something on their outside as they hit the atmosphere, then after that they're 'clean', no more sparks, tail, etc. Just a glowing green ball. Sounds like ice with some goop or dust on the outside. Maybe that works across scale to the very small? Maybe electricity or magnetism plays a role in the aggregation forces, making the loose structures just strong enough to resist being ripped apart by the solar wind. All speculation, but fun anyways. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 14:34:56 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13369; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:34:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:34:31 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010509170931.00a8a918@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 17:34:16 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wasting energy as a private and sacred ritual In-Reply-To: <001101c0d8e2$735913c0$2445ccd1@asus> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010508133450.0290a390@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010508133450.0290a390@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010509152148.02907e30@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"5gdMR3.0.pG3.cVR-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42481 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >There is a seductive human trait which is that if you can waste it, you are >rich and powerful. To have to save is to be limited in choice and range. That's true, and that trait probably plays a bigger role in society than I have realized. >With a mobile US population that may be in a house only a few >years, it's hard to sell a system, or construction, with a thirty year >payback. . . . I guess so . . . Then again, an efficient furnace will be a good selling point for people wanting to buy your house, like a new roof. In the used housing market advertisements often say "all new appliances" "new roof." >And it's hard to retrofit old houses, now occupied by people of >limited resources. Money is always a problem, but we had no difficulty putting in new windows and insulation in our Atlanta house built in 1956, or our old house in Washington D.C., built circa 1890. Retrofitted houses may not be as efficient as new ones. >When you go to the store for a new fridge and the energy-efficient one costs >more and has less space, who is going to do a ROI calculation? I do not think they have less space. I could not tell by looking at the models in Home Depot. Anyone can do an approximate ROI with the numbers conveniently posted on the tag on the front of the refrigerator. >SUVs are probably the most conspicuous example of macho waste. It is sometimes called "conspicuous consumption." At least with an SUV the macho waste is visible and serves its intended purpose to impress people (or disgust them). A lousy pump in your washing machine or a missing S-shaped pipe above your water heater give you no satisfaction or bragging rights. The only person who gets a kick out of seeing second-rate equipment and sloppy engineering would be a man who was paid $36 million last year by an energy company. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 14:46:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18379; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:45:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:45:13 -0700 Message-ID: <005001c0d8c8$bfcfcf60$e3b4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: A FEMA Primer on Home Built Gasifiers Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:43:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0D89E.CE7E7400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"i-Hu32.0._U4.ffR-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42482 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0D89E.CE7E7400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If things get real bad you can do this for survival. http://www.gengas.nu/byggbes/3.shtml#1.3.1 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0D89E.CE7E7400 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="The Gengas Page.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="The Gengas Page.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.gengas.nu/byggbes/3.shtml [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.gengas.nu/byggbes/3.shtml#1.3.1 Modified=C07FC154C8D8C001B5 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0D89E.CE7E7400-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 16:10:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA15904; Wed, 9 May 2001 16:08:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:08:50 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [209.249.70.181] From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Announcement from Jim Cox Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 16:08:16 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 May 2001 23:08:16.0405 (UTC) FILETIME=[EE047C50:01C0D8DC] Resent-Message-ID: <"NDvIN3.0.Nu3.1uS-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42483 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status:

Jim Cox is the coeditor of Anti-Gravity News along with Ron Kita.   I've known Ron for a few years.  He is first-rate - an excellent engineer and scientist (although he likes to point out he was trained as an economist).

Mark Goldes, CEO, Magnetic Power Inc. & Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. (a subsidiary).

>From: thomas malloy
>Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Fwd: Announcement from Jim Cox
>Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:23:48 -0500
>
>Has anybody ever heard of this guy?
>
>>X-Sender: bailey@shell14.ba.best.com
>>
>>(Received in Feb. I was awaiting more info.):
>>
>>Patrick:
>> Take note of the following items and
>>post/distribute as you see fit:
>>
>> 1. The regular AG Conference held in Reno is
>>canceled for the year 2001, in deference to Jerry
>>Decker's new conference in Dallas June 16/17 (bush
>>country). I will offer him a video report/update on my
>>"dean drive" research for showing.
>>
>> 2. A new start-up company is being formed in Reno
>>called Inertiacraft Technology Corporation (ITC), and
>>a catalog sent out shortly offering many exciting new
>>products for sale related to inertia experiments and
>>propulsion, as well as a new website for the same. The
>>core products will be GILS Thrust Modules in the 10,
>>100, 1000 and 10,000 lb lift category for various
>>customer applications (to be developed over 5 years).
>>
>> 3. My phone number listed at the
>>website is no longer operative. I will be
>>transitioning over to a new location during February
>>and will post a new number when it is available
>>(unless I get a cell phone). Contact point will be
>>Mr.Kita for any questions or problems. Accordingly,
>>there is a suspension of newsletter activity since
>>everything is boxed up for moving.
>>
>> 4. The new company (ITC) will hold an investor's
>>meeting in the month of April/May in Reno. Attendence
>>is by invitation only to qualified investors. Purpose
>>is to raise $1,000,000 to form the core corporate team
>>and launch the new product line. Fee for the meeting
>>is $1000 and is limited to 100 persons. I currently
>>have four prototype items ready for commercialization
>>(to be on display). Highlight of the meeting will be
>>demonstration of the 4-unit GILS self-lifter. Also,
>>there will be a presentation of concept designs for
>>the Personal Back-Pak Self Lifter and the Two
>>Passenger Inertiacraft Vehicle. Inertial propulsion
>>technology is in its infancy so a review of the
>>technology issues (such a clutch reliability and
>>passenger safety) will be offered, as well as patent
>>status, followed by a question/answer session. Contact
>>Jim Cox directly via e-mail (bootstrapcox@yahoo.com>
>>if think you are qualified and desire to attend.
>>
>> 5. My heartfelt thanks go out to all of my
>>supporters over the last 3-4 years of AGN
>>subscribers/conference attendees (despite the
>>shoe-string operation) but which gave me time and a
>>little financial aid to pursue by inertial propulsion
>>investigations. You all now represent the core team
>>from which we can now enter a new age in the
>>transportation industry that could parallel the
>>information technology revolution we have already
>>experienced. Update your resumes! Bill Gates, I am on
>>your tail!!!
>>
>> 6. I now have a video (30 minute)data summary of all
>>the key tests on the Gravito-Inertial Lift System that
>>prove indisputably its stunning unidirectional lift
>>characteristics. This includes, besides the bathscale
>>50% weightloss (1999 AG Conference), but the digital
>>electronic strain gauge weightloss of 90%, and recent
>>"action" and "reaction" force transducer measurements
>>as well as vectoring on ball bearing wheels. This
>>video cost is $50 including shipment. Make checks to
>>James E. Cox Enterprise, P.O.Box 71151, Reno, Nevada
>>89570-1151.
>>
>> 7. Finally, a special thanks to the Bay Area Support
>>Group consisting of Dr.Bailey, who has been my
>>webmaster (the blind leading the blind), with whom I
>>expect to do additional business vs LHMC projects, and
>>Creon Levitt at ISSO for their conference support and
>>handsome consulting payments regarding AG tradeoffs.
>>Lastly, a long and loyal friend, Ron Kita, who is
>>definitely FAMILY!
>>
>>-- JIM COX
>

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 16:58:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA32572; Wed, 9 May 2001 16:58:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:58:24 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010508164802.02942750@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010508164802.02942750@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 18:56:52 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: More About the Small Comet Theory Resent-Message-ID: <"g8rpw1.0.ly7.VcT-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42484 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jed - > > > I have a more direct question: Why don't telescopes detect them? > >Perhaps they have. Fuzzy globs have shown up on scopes hunting for them. > >I even saw a strange faint glowing patch-like 'meteor' on a very >clear starlight night back in the mid-60's. Sightings like that don't >pack much weight when they're odd and rare like that, but I know what >I saw was a patch of dim light of about apparent lunar diameter, >moving fast and persisting only briefly in a manner similar to a >meteor. Must have been one of the bigger ones. Looked like what an >arc searchlight beam would look like playing on clouds, but this was >a very clear dark night with zero clouds, way out in the country. > >My notion about these things is that maybe they are *very* loosely >aggregated, perhaps even to the point that a spacecraft might survive >a direct impact - basically just a cloud of fine particles. Whoosh! ***{You need to run the numbers, Rick. If you do, you will find that a 10 mg snowflake moving at 10 km/sec has an energy of (1/2)mV^2 = (1/2)(.01)[(10^6)^2] = 5x10^9 ergs, whereas an 18 gm lead bullet coming out of the muzzle of a .45 auto at 500 fps has an energy of a mere (1/2)(18)[(15240)^2] = 2.09x10^9 ergs. Bottom line: a snowflake between the eyes at 10 km/sec is going to kill you more than twice as dead as a .45 slug between the eyes. :-) --MJ}*** >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 17:12:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA04864; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:10:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 17:10:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3AF9CF24.E8BFA9C8@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 17:14:36 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xi6Op1.0.uB1.dnT-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42485 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > Ed Storms wrote: > > >After you were "born again" into this new, identical being > > ***{You keep using the word "identical." However, I am explicitly saying > that the new being is *not* identical. While he possesses the > understandings you possessed at the time of your death, he does not possess > your memories, and his body may be radically different--he may not even be > a member of the human species, in fact. --MJ}*** Sorry, I was referring to your idea that the new person needs to be like you to become you. > > > , how would you know > >that this process had occurred? > > ***{The only way to know that the process occurred is by means of the > reasoning we have been discussing--to wit: (a) the fact that you are alive > now proves that conditions exist which are capable of bringing you from a > state of nonexistence into a state of existence; (b) the vastness, > complexity, and ever changing nature of the universe suggests that, after > you die, those conditions will eventually occur again; and (c) logic > requires that, if they do, you will live again. --MJ}*** This logic evades the possibility that each of us is entirely "new" and that we live now only because an egg and sperm got together. We appear unique to ourselves only because that is the way we were designed to feel. Your logic is much like my saying that because I can imagine cold fusion, therefore it must be real. > > > Would you remember your previous existence? If > >not, what is the point? > > ***{When I came into this world, I did not remember any previous lives, > despite the likelihood that I had existed in this universe before. > Therefore, by your premise, there could have been no point to my life. Yet, > in fact, there obviously was a point: my life was an opportunity to enjoy, > to learn, to grow, and to advance my understandings relative to those I had > when I came into the world. What more justification does life require? The "point" had nothing to do with your enjoying your present life. The "point" has to do with believing that you lived before and this previous life had some meaning to you. > > > As for the absence of conscious memories of a prior life, what is the big > loss? Granted, you would not want to be stuck in a rut from which you never > made any progress, always coming back, at the beginning of the next life, > precisely the same way you were at the beginning of the previous one. > However, to make progress from one life to the next, does not require that > conscious memories be retained. If a person has a head start, relative to > the intellectual development he had at the beginning of his previous life, > because the understandings he had at the end of that life are retained, > then he will not have to repeat the laborious learning process that enabled > him to build up those understandings. Instead, he will find that he has > "innate talent" or "natural ability" in the areas where those > understandings apply, and he will whiz through his studies in those areas. Yes, that is the benefit "conventional" reincarnation is supposed to give. > > > I would add that the retention of conscious memories would in many respects > be disadvantageous. If you remembered your previous mother, for example, > you would probably feel less loyal to your present mother. And if you > remembered every mother you ever had, across eons of time and space, all > the way back to lives in which you were a fish or a bug, I suspect that you > would be hopelessly confused in your problem solving efforts as a human. :-) Presumably, the memories of past lives are not as strong as present memories, at least that is what people who have these memories say. > > > Bottom line: there is a point to life, even if you do not remember any > previous lives when you come into the world. I agree - my problem is with your model of the reliving process. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > [snip] > > >> ***{I occasionally have vivid dreams that the credulous might characterize > >> as memories, but that is not the label I place on them. --MJ}*** > > > >If this is the case, why are you raising the subject of dreams? > > ***{Because what you term "memories of prior lives," I term "dreams." :-) > --MJ}*** > > What would you > >accept as evidence of a past existence? > > ***{The only evidence for past lives is the reasoning that I described > above. When sincere and level-headed people claim to have memories of prior > lives, they are for the most part merely misinterpreting their dreams. Why > do I say that? Because none of them can propose a non-absurd mechanism by > which information might be transferred from the brains of dead people to > those of the living. Instead they all, like you, are forced to invoke an > "unseen world" the existence of which is incompatible with the world of the > senses. --MJ}*** The problem we have in our individual interpretations of reality is that you think certain models are absurd, so you invent another model that I find absurd. You conclude that the "unseen world" is incompatible with the world of the senses while I see that we are surrounded by information and aspects of reality that are equally invisible to the senses, yet you believe in them. The difference between our approaches rest on how we judge the evidence that is presented to us by reality. I examine certain phenomena, evaluate whether they are real, then try to find an explanation. You on the other hand, look at the same phenomena and conclude that they are absurd because they can not be explained by your understanding of reality. There simply is no way out of such a conflict of viewpoints. > > > [snip] > > >> ***{Being able to reason requires one thing only: a command of language. > >> Since beliefs are held in the form of statements, they require language as > >> well. That means we acquire the capacity to reason at exactly the same time > >> we acquire the capacity to form beliefs. The implication: it is impossible > >> to acquire beliefs before one is able to reason. --MJ}*** > > > >I suggest these assertions are at odds with a large body of psychological > >experience. A wide range of study shows that people and animals reason > >without the > >use of language. > > ***{Ed, I have stated very explicitly what I mean by reason, and you have > agreed with that definition. To refresh your memory, here it is again: > > (1) You state, as accurately as you can, the question to be answered. > > (2) You state, as accurately as you can, the various possible answers to > that question. > > (3) You systematically search for factual information that contradicts > those answers, until all of them have been eliminated but one. > > (4) The answer that remains, however implausible, is what you must accept > as the truth. > > Given that is what "reason" means, it is obviously nonsense to claim that > "A wide range of study shows that people and animals reason without the use > of language," because the entire process, as defined, is based on the use > of language. Mitchell, you have defined reason in a narrow way that suits your argument. This is not the general definition of reason. Using your definition, I agree animals do not "reason", for what that agreement is worth. > > > What those studies actually show, in fact, is that some animals, > particularly mammals, choose--which means: they imagine what will happen if > they do A, then imagine what will happen if they do B, and choose on the > basis of imagined sensations of pleasure and pain. For example: a deer sees > a tiger crouched near a water hole, and imagines two sequences of events: > she gets a nice drink of cool clear water, after which she is killed and > eaten; or she drinks from the mud puddle at her feet, and lives. Result: > the pain associated with the first sequence of mental images prompts her to > drink from the mud puddle instead. > > Bottom line: the fact that animals choose does not imply that they reason. That is true. Reason, in the general definition, is not the same as an educated choice. Reason must involve an unseen, imagined situation that leads to a nonobvious choice. The apes and dolphins have been found to show this ability. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > In addition, your statement depends on how you define "belief". > >A person can acquire a "belief" in God by simply being raised in a religious > >family > > ***{In my usage, a belief is a statement upholding some truth. As such, it > is of necessity couched in the terms of language. Hence belief, like > reasoning, requires the use of language. Result: it is impossible to > acquire beliefs before one can reason. I'm afraid, Mitchell, this is once again a narrow definition designed to fit your argument. A belief can be a verbal statement, but it also can result in an action requiring no language for its revelation. I suggest that most people have no idea how their beliefs control their actions - they just act without thinking or reasoning. > > > Of course, one can acquire memories before one can use language, and one > can choose on the basis of those memories. For example, the pre-verbal > child touches the hot frying pan, burns the crap out of himself, and > remembers not to touch it again. Some would say that he now "believes" the > hot frying pan will burn him if he touches it, but that is not my usage. I > would say that he associates pain with the thought of touching the hot pan, > or, more accurately, that his expectation of touching the hot pan involves > pain. Yes, I agree. On the other hand, he can "believe" someone placed the hot pan there for the purpose of burning him. That would involve abstract reasoning using an imagined situation. Granted, such a conclusion would not be considered rational or normal. Nevertheless, people do come to such conclusions, and from such reasoning develop a belief that they are being influenced by unseen forces or people. > > > As to whether a child can acquire a belief in God simply by virtue of being > raised in a religious family, it depends on the child, upon the degree of > talent for reasoning that he brings with him into the world, upon the > amount of coercion his parents are willing to apply to force his thoughts > into the desired mold, upon his freedom to escape from his parents if they > mistreat him, and on many other things. The process is very subtle and not affected by reasoning. It is called brain washing when applied to an adult. Enough is now known about how the brain works that a skilled person can change the reality of anyone under the right circumstances. In the case of a child, the process is easy and can be done without any physical harm being used. The person has no way of knowing that his reality has changed. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > (or in your case, the opposite result > > ***{When I said I never believed in God, I did not mean my parents were > atheists. They were, in fact, believers; and they attempted to pass their > beliefs on to me. However, I considered those ideas to be absurd from the > very first time I heard them, back when I was two or three. (Yeah, I know: > I was a bizarre kid. I never believed in Santa Claus, either. :-) --MJ}*** Clearly, your powers of reasoning developed much earlier and to a greater extent than is the case for most people. Your unique experience can not be applied to the general human race. Whether you could have been "taught" a belief in religion is not for me to say without knowing you much better. > > > However, a "belief" in the Second > >Law, I admit requires some logic and language. > > ***{Understandings result from the reasoning that one does, or from the > lack thereof--which means: the less one reasons about one's experiences, > the more vulnerable one becomes to the influence of one's > "environment"--i.e., other people. The fact that beliefs and reasoning both > require language, in other words, merely means that one has the > *opportunity* to base one's beliefs on reasoning, not that one must > necessarily do so. --MJ}*** The problem I'm talking about is most visible in the people we call insane. These people use logic and reason very well. The problem is that their logic starts from a nonrational premise. The trouble is that we all are "insane" to some extent. All of the premises we use are to some degree incomplete and irrational. As you discovered in our debate, I start from a different premise than you do, hence arrive at a different conclusion using logic and reasoning. The fault does not lie in the ability to reason. > > > >> In addition, we > >> >all, no matter how logical, are influenced by our experiences in > >> >nonlogical ways. > >> > >> ***{That is true of people who reject reason or who apply it > >> inconsistently. For people who accept reason and apply it consistently, > >> however, it is only to the extent that they make mistakes, that their > >> experiences influence them in illogical ways. --MJ}*** Once again, you assume the ideal, i.e. accept reason and apply it consistently. Can you say that you apply reasoning consistently to all things? Have you ever been in love? > > > > >"To the extent that they make mistakes", now there is another rub. I > >suggest a > >more useful description is "to the extent that logic fails". > > ***{That would certainly be "more useful" if one wanted an excuse to > abandon logic. But without logic, one cannot reason, and reason is the most > powerful instrument one has for finding the truth. Therefore, why would one > abandon the most powerful instrument one has for finding the truth? The > answer: one would do that only if the goal were to surrender oneself to the > influences of "environment"--which means: to "fit in" with "significant > others" rather than to find the truth. This is, in fact, precisely why all > religions, and all religious cults, explicitly disavow logic and reason, > and encourage their followers to rely instead on blind faith, "holy" books, > the supposed "wisdom" of "holy" men, etc. (It is hard to separate a man > from his wallet, if you encourage him to judge everything, including your > teachings, on the basis of reason. :-) --MJ}*** In religion, faith is applied only to the basic belief. Reasoning is then used to arrive at the conclusions the belief implies. For example you have as a basic belief that a supreme universal intelligence (a God) does not exist. You can not arrive at this belief from reasoning, but you can reason the consequences of that belief. One of the consequences is that an "unseen reality" can not exist. In contrast, a person who believes in a God, reasons that the "unseen reality" must exist. I lie between these extremes and look to find evidence for the "unseen reality" independent of any belief in God. > > > >> >This is just a reality of life that needs to be acknowledged because we > >>can do > >> >nothing about this process. If we ignore the process, we will gradually > >> >become > >> >someone we did not expect to become, all the while claiming to be doing > >> >everything > >> >in a completely logical way. > >> > >> ***{We all make mistakes, so nobody does everything in a completely logical > >> way. However, those who reject reason, or who use it inconsistently, are > >> much more illogical than persons who accept it and use it consistently. > >> --MJ}*** True > > > > >This is circular reasoning. Frankly, I see some of the worst sins being > >committed > >in the name of logic. Now, you might argue that these were the fault of > >bad logic > >or not the logical path you would have chosen. Nevertheless, the sinner > >was using > >logic is the most constant way possible, based on the initial assumptions. > > ***{Logic is merely a tool of reasoning, and has no utility outside of that > context. When people with healthy brains fail to move toward the truth, the > fault invariably lies in their inconsistent practice of reasoning--i.e., in > their exempting of certain beliefs from the purview of reason. When that > happens, it is always because they are focused on the interpersonal > implications of a belief rather than on its truth value. They *want* to > believe it, because they know that if they come to disbelieve it, they will > be rejected by their significant others. To avoid such an outcome, they > exempt that belief from the reasoning process: they do *not* state the > question which the belief attempts to answer; or they do not state all the > possible answers to the question; or they do not attempt to find > information which contradicts all of those answers (which must perforce > include the belief itself); or they do not accept the answer that survives > as the truth. The problem, in short, is that reasoning will only pull you > toward the truth, over time, if you apply it consistently > > Bottom line: when people do not move toward the truth, the fault does not > lie in reason, but in themselves. True, but as I argued above, you can not change a belief using reasoning. All you can do is to show that your basic belief is inconsistent with the other belief, using logic. This process does not show which belief is correct. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >> complex matter can apparently be moved in > >> >and out of our reality at will by certain individuals. > >> > >> ***{I have no doubt that Sai Baba can make his followers money disappear, > >> for example. :-) --MJ}*** > > > >His follower's money is used to build schools in India that teach > >technology. Sai > >Baba accepts no money for himself. > > ***{Does he have a house? A car? Servants? An office? Employees? If so, > then he derives benefits from his followers' money, irrespective of the > bookkeeping practices that he employs. --MJ}*** We all must live and resources must be provided for that purpose. Sai Baba receives resources from his followers for this purpose in the same manner as we all obtain resources for what we do. The issue is whether he takes more than is reasonable and how he uses the excess. He is not ripping off his followers, as your statement would imply, but he is using money given willingly to improve the Indian society. This is done through a foundation run by other people. > > > He believes for India to come out of the dark > >ages, technology must be applied throughout society. His goal is to > >provide the > >means to teach how this tool should be developed and used for the benefit > >of his > >country and eventually the world. While he carries a message from the other > >reality, he also recognizes what is needed in this world to allow his basic > >message to have meaning. His basic message is the same as Christ and many > >other > >people have taught the subject, i.e. we are not isolated individuals > > ***{In a division-of-labor society, we all specialize; and we depend on the > mechanism of trade to obtain values produced by others. In that sense, we > are all interdependent. --MJ}*** The view of not being isolated individuals has nothing to do with economics or division of labor. It has to do with the very essence of our existence. Economics and division of labor produces conflict. The situation he is talking about is designed to eliminate conflict. He is saying that we are all alike in the most basic of ways and that we should value each other (love) as we would value our closest relative. > > > , but part of > >a universal conscious > > ***{Our streams of consciousness are ultimately and irreducibly separate: I > see through my eyes, but cannot see through yours; you see through your > eyes, but cannot see through mine; and so on. These are unarguable, > irrefutable, bedrock metaphysical facts. --MJ}*** That is not a fact. There are people who have the ability to see through my eyes as well as yours. You just have not taken the trouble to meet such people. > > > and that we should love each another like bothers (sisters) > >because we are all of one family. > > ***{Taken literally, the above statement would imply that you should love > Hitler, Stalin, John Wayne Gacy, and the Boston Strangler "like brothers." > But, of course, you don't. The question, therefore, is this: why do you > affirm a moral precept that you do not, cannot, and should not practice? > --MJ}*** As you well know, just because all people do not practice an approach in the perfect way, does not make the approach wrong. In addition, a difference exists between loving someone, such as Hitler, and protecting oneself from his aberrations. Love does not imply that you must give in to the loved one at every turn or that you must agree with their views. It only means that you will treat them with kindness and consideration when that is possible, that you will not be distracted by hated, and that you will seek the highest goal for all concerned. This, naturally, is not easy to do. In the case of Hitler, I would kill the bastard as quickly as possible, for the good of all concerned. However, I would do this with regret and without satisfaction. > > > This simple message has profound implications > >that would take a whole literature to explore, as has been done already. > > ***{A good way to start comprehending the implications is to observe the > misery that exists in third-world hell-holes such as India, where this sort > of message has been immensely popular for a very long time. With sufficient > reflection, it may perhaps begin to cross the mind that what India needs is > a government which is constitutionally bound to protect property rights, > and that the primary obstacle to its obtaining such a government is the > widespread belief of its people that we are all one--i.e., that individual > consciousness, and individual rights, do not exist. --MJ}*** India is a complex country with more religions than people can count. That is has survived at all is a miracle. To get from where it is, a situation created by the British, to where it must be will take more than such a government. Indeed, the creation of such a government is impossible under the present circumstances, but not because of this belief which is not widely shared even in India. The country needs to become prosperous and have enough property in the hands of the general population to make such a government useful to the majority. > > > >> This implies the existence > >> >of a reality in which this matter and information can be stored and/or > >>moved. > >> > >> ***{Yup: Sai Baba's bank account. :-) --MJ}*** > > > >Rather than being sarcastic, I suggest you learn something about Sai Baba. I > >predict you will be surprised. > > ***{Actually, I was trying to be amusing. I even had a smiley at the end. > --MJ}*** Have you ever read anything about the man? Amazon.com lists 106 books on the subject. Pick one and then we can both smile. Ed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 20:27:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA11163; Wed, 9 May 2001 20:25:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 20:25:32 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 20:25:11 -0700 Message-ID: <006c01c0d900$d2a044c0$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"Q_Kec1.0.Lk2.ieW-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42486 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What ? Amplification does not relate to matter, only energy. It takes MORE energy to amplify energy , not less, and you may create a resonance tuned to the atom , but then you create a Laser, because eventually the Amplified energy will have to go somewhere. A capacitor stores electrical energy, but then releases it, and the rate and amount of release determines the capacitance. A Resistor prevents energy from traveling along a path, And an amplifier takes a small input and creates a larger output. It is nothing more than a flow controller, and it by itself cannot do anything like you describe. A Coil takes a very low voltage with a high current and turns it into a very high voltage with a low current. Conservation of energy still takes place. You cannot get something for nothing. In fact the law of the universe is you get nothing or less than something for something. We can store energy, we can convert it, but if you have a low amount of energy, to convert it to a higher amount requires NO loss in manufacture, and as of the creation of the universe, its never been done. Some one invented a diode once. It has the action of only allowing energy to flow in one direction. However, it needs energy to activate, and therefore reduces the energy you flow past it. Some one connected 2 diodes together in a certain fashion, and therefore created a transistor, worsened the problem. It adds noise to the formula. Matter can be moved and molded and changed all with a cost of energy to do so. Matter can store energy in its electrical field, and its inertia, and it can release energy when you break it down, but you cannot create matter from energy. The entire amount of matter created from the untold hours of particle collisions around the world in all the colliding equipment ever made could fit between this --> <-- and weigh about a gram. Considering all the Energy used to make that much matter, that should more than prove to you that there is no free lunch. Matthew Rogers Prove it.. Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman@antioch-college.edu] Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 12:25 AM To: Matthew Rogers Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Dear Matthew Rogers, Let me know what web site you are going to and I will try to borrow time on a www site and go there also. I have had enjoyment building Tesla tuned transformers and some of his resonant circuits. We did not have a good grasp on the neutron until 1932. The "baby neutron" or "tiny neutron" or "little neutron" to use the humor of the particle physics of the time comes from Enrico Fermi.... and he and his peers keep the tradition alive. To Build a Set Up to Amplify Hydrogen I am an experimentalist and as such revel in a technical puzzle. To amplify electrons I use a methods to sense their passing and the proportion of their passing is used to control or regulate the flow or a larger reservoir of electrons. This is hoe the electrons are "Amplified" ... I think most electronics experimenters know the amplifier is a sort of a control mechanism and does not manufacture electrons out of nothing to give us free power. The Hydrogen Amplifier I would first set up a hydrogen source and allow a beam of hydrogen to be formed and accelerate the beam to some nominal moderate level. I would allow the beam to pass through an open 3 element device made of 3 screens one as a cathode, one as a grid and one as a collector plate and would use a GENTLE foward flow of current to determine the nature of the Hydrogen beam. For instance, if the H-Beam was there, not there, going slow, or medium fast or fast. I would then acquire the signal from the Hydrogen Detector, buffer this signal, amplify it in both voltage and current to very high levels and cause the now amplified Hydrogen Control Signal to regulate a valve on the output side of a regulator connected to a fresh tank of dry hydrogen. Now, I have NO CLUE how the "neutrino amplifier" is supposed to work, but would be interested to find out. If the contributors can plee post a simple description similar to the one I just qrote for the Hydrogen amplifier, then we may all be closer to understanding. I am particularly interested in the the sensor and generator part of the neutrino amplifier. Note to Matthew, please let me know if you get any information and I will let you know if I find any. John Schnurer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 22:58:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA24063; Wed, 9 May 2001 22:58:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:58:04 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Frank's black fluffball theory Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:57:27 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <93bkfto7qn8uad7h5sv0hp5guksktbmv1a@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA24029 Resent-Message-ID: <"njDUC3.0.st5.htY-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42487 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Another possibility :- The solar wind comprises primarily hydrogen plasma. Some of this gets trapped in the Van Allen belts, and near the poles where the field lines intersect the atmosphere, the load of charged particles interacts with the atmosphere and produces the auroras. Eventually the hydrogen from the belts combines with oxygen from the air, producing high level water vapour, which eventually condenses into faint "clouds" blocking the dayglow UV. Voila - "small comets". Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 9 23:51:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA01737; Wed, 9 May 2001 23:50:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 23:50:59 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [195.92.198.73] From: "Oseri M" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: CA power companies may be manipulating prices Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 06:50:29 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 May 2001 06:50:29.0706 (UTC) FILETIME=[805A62A0:01C0D91D] Resent-Message-ID: <"EVv7w.0.-Q.JfZ-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42488 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, visit www.capitalismmagazine.com and see the section about the CA crisis and price controls. Big brother doublethink, no? OM. >From: Jed Rothwell >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-L@eskimo.com >Subject: CA power companies may be manipulating prices >Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:19:59 -0400 > >Here are some quotes from an article that was on the San Francisco >Chronicle web site until this afternoon. > >It seems the power companies may be manipulating the supply of electricity >in order to inflate the cost. What a shock! The big energy companies >playing foolish games for short-term benefit. Customers large and small >will reduce consumption and install their own generators. In a few years >the California power companies will be swamped with excess facilities. > >- Jed > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >Soaring Electric Use More Fiction Than Fact >Chronicle investigation finds power companies manipulate data to excuse >their towering rates > >Sunday, March 11, 2001 > >Power companies say it so often, and with such certainty, that it has >become a virtual mantra: "Skyrocketing" energy use by Californians is a >root cause of the state's power crisis, and justification for surging >electricity prices. > >But a computer analysis of electricity usage data by The Chronicle reveals >that the mantra is a myth -- that overall growth in electricity demand >hasn't been nearly as great as the industry portrays it. . . . > >"The claims that demand growth is rampant and that it was >totally unexpected and due to the Internet economy, to Silicon Valley, >or server farms, or people recharging cell phones -- that's bogus," said >Tom Kelly, assistant executive director of the California Energy >Commission. "About as bogus as you can get." > >The Chronicle's findings are based on data collected by the California >Independent System Operator, a manager of the state's electricity grid. >They show: > >-- Total electricity consumption in California increased only 4.75 percent >in 2000 from 1999, a sharp contrast to claims of industry representatives, >who have repeatedly relied on isolated, loose or selective comparisons >that make growth appear as high as 20 percent. In fact, the single >greatest hour of electricity usage in 2000 was actually lower than any >peak demand period in 1999 or 1998. > >-- Average peak demand -- the average of the highest hour of electricity >usage for each day -- increased only 4.79 percent from 1999 to 2000. Even >during the months of May to September in 2000, when the greatest spikes in >electricity usage occur, demand growth was only 8.31 percent higher than >the same period the year before. > >-- More than 30 days of critical power shortage warnings, so-called Stage >3 emergencies, and two days of blackouts this year occurred at times of >moderate energy use -- levels often below those at which neither warnings >nor blackouts have occurred in the past. > >The findings appear to buttress suspicions that the "skyrocketing demand" >explanation for rising energy prices is a cover for what is really >happening -- that power companies have simply started charging more for >an essential commodity, regardless of whether it is in short supply. . . . > >The industry-backed Edison Electric Institute said in a report >that electricity demand grew by anywhere from 5 percent to 21 >percent during the spring of 2000, compared with the same period a >year earlier. . . . > >Also, nowhere did Edison's report note that the peak hour of 2000, a load >of 43,784 megawatts on Aug. 16, was actually lower than the peak hours of >either of the previous two years -- 45,884 on July 12, 1999, or 44,406 on >Sept. 1, 1998. . . . > > >MARKET MANIPULATION? > >Consumer representatives and some politicians have long suspected that, >rather than dire imbalances between supply and demand, market manipulation >is behind the crisis. > >Generators and power marketers adamantly deny this, saying they have done >everything they could to keep the lights on. They say they ran aging, >decrepit plants at higher-than-normal levels last summer to accommodate >what they described as unprecedented demand. They also say that, at great >expense, they delayed much-needed maintenance in order to keep the power >flowing. > >Their claims have received some support from the Federal Energy Regulatory >Commission, which said in a report last month that it found no evidence >power companies were using maintenance schedules to manipulate supply. The >report, however, was heavily qualified by the FERC, which said it did not >investigate other forms of manipulation. Moreover, the agency acknowledged >that the bulk of its investigation was conducted by simply calling power >plants and questioning them over the telephone. . . . > >While average electricity usage during the heaviest hours last >year increased by less than 5 percent, prices charged by power >companies to the utilities that deliver juice to consumers increased more >than 289 percent. > >In June, the cost of a megawatt hour increased more than fivefold, going >from the 1999 level of $30.53 to $170.60. In October, prices doubled over >the same period a year earlier, going from $53.47 to $111.04. And in >December -- despite a 1.46 percent decline in electricity usage from the >previous December -- peak wholesale electricity prices hit $425.59. They'd >been $31.88 one year before. . . . > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 00:14:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA06181; Thu, 10 May 2001 00:14:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 00:14:11 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 03:20:38 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: address Remi Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ZxNPo3.0.VW1.3_Z-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42489 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, My addresses for Remi bounce. Any help? Please From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 01:45:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA19478; Thu, 10 May 2001 01:31:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 01:31:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 04:38:20 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Rick Monteverde cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Frank's black fluffball theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"EuFg52.0.Gm4.x7b-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42490 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some of the Ice that hits us yields UV .... the LW UV should be detectable on the Earth's surface. Bill Beatty will tell you a good high gain optical detection circuit, with speed and gain, can allow you to hear much interesting stuff after sun set. I like aircraft lamps, some sky effects. A 19 inch parabolic search light mirror is good. and in the day time, in the sun it will usually set stainless steel 20 or 22 AWG wire ... on fire! J On Wed, 9 May 2001, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Bill - > > > Or like aerogel made of photocopier toner, where each > > carbon grain has an ice particle inside. > > There you go. > > Those ice meteors that come in burn off something on their outside as > they hit the atmosphere, then after that they're 'clean', no more > sparks, tail, etc. Just a glowing green ball. Sounds like ice with > some goop or dust on the outside. Maybe that works across scale to > the very small? > > Maybe electricity or magnetism plays a role in the aggregation > forces, making the loose structures just strong enough to resist > being ripped apart by the solar wind. All speculation, but fun > anyways. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 07:40:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA03173; Thu, 10 May 2001 07:39:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 07:39:39 -0700 Message-ID: <001801c0d956$72233a20$1c8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Searching Vortex-L Archives? Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 08:37:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"9ar3o1.0.Un.hWg-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42491 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I was trying to look up something that I posted after mid December of 2000. How do you access the Vortex-L archives to do this? TIA. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 09:18:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03886; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:16:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:16:19 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0d962$04c33be0$d5181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: , , Subject: Fw: "free energy" Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 07:35:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"QSkkL2.0.Uy.Jxh-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42492 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If anyone can find out anything more about this technology let us all know. Thanks Bruce Electrifying Times -> I thought you might find this interesting. There is a company called >EcoQuest that is a MLM company. Late this Fall or early next year they will >introduce a product called the "Wind Tree" It is an electrical generator >with no moving parts that produces enough electricity to meet the needs of >your house, hotel or whatever you want. The technology is our of Germany >and will be marketed exclusively through the MLM company. If you want to >see pictures of their working prototypes go to: http://www.ecoquestintl.com/ >then go to their home page and click on "wind tree" and "phenomenal >product". It will be fun to watch a legitimate company with adequate >capital try to introduce this into the marketplace. > >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 09:30:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA08680; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:29:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:29:27 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c0d963$d8227360$d5181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 08:13:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"7lP-a.0.V72.b7i-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42493 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All; Another possibility to attract nutrinos has to do with resonance; Keely was big on that technology. find a way to achieve a frequency higher than light. it has been done and it is a part of the secret of nutrino voltaics. burned down labs by swat teams is proof of the inventors technological sucess. i will cover all this in our next inside edition. www.electrifyingtimes.com -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) >In reply to John Schnurer's message of Sat, 5 May 2001 17:49:30 -0400 >(EDT): > >> >> >> Dear Folks, >> >> >> How do we amplify sub atomic particles? >> >> How to amplify a neutrino... or, forthat matter, an electron, or a >>proton, or a neutron? >> >> Can we amplify hydrogen? >> >> I say ...YES! We can amplify Hydrogen and Electrons and Helium. >That's nice John. But what does amplify mean in this context? > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 10:52:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09060; Thu, 10 May 2001 10:50:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:50:22 -0700 Message-ID: <003d01c0d96f$21dcf560$dd181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:34:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5Z0bU3.0.5D2.NJj-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42494 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You are thinking only in classical terms. One must shift gears. Ive seen the devices operate and measured them. Evidently if you can tune to high frequency with a transistor th eenergy keeps flowing according to load. Keep in mind the negative post is the ground. From: Matthew Rogers To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 8:30 PM Subject: RE: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies >What ? >Amplification does not relate to matter, only energy. It takes MORE energy >to amplify energy , not less, and you may create a resonance tuned to the >atom , but then you create a Laser, because eventually the Amplified energy >will have to go somewhere. > >A capacitor stores electrical energy, but then releases it, and the rate and >amount of release determines the capacitance. > >A Resistor prevents energy from traveling along a path, > >And an amplifier takes a small input and creates a larger output. It is >nothing more than a flow controller, and it by itself cannot do anything >like you describe. > >A Coil takes a very low voltage with a high current and turns it into a very >high voltage with a low current. > >Conservation of energy still takes place. You cannot get something for >nothing. In fact the law of the universe is you get nothing or less than >something for something. > >We can store energy, we can convert it, but if you have a low amount of >energy, to convert it to a higher amount requires NO loss in manufacture, >and as of the creation of the universe, its never been done. > >Some one invented a diode once. It has the action of only allowing energy to >flow in one direction. However, it needs energy to activate, and therefore >reduces the energy you flow past it. Some one connected 2 diodes together in >a certain fashion, and therefore created a transistor, worsened the problem. >It adds noise to the formula. > >Matter can be moved and molded and changed all with a cost of energy to do >so. Matter can store energy in its electrical field, and its inertia, and it >can release energy when you break it down, but you cannot create matter from >energy. The entire amount of matter created from the untold hours of >particle collisions around the world in all the colliding equipment ever >made could fit between this --> <-- and weigh about a gram. > >Considering all the Energy used to make that much matter, that should more >than prove to you that there is no free lunch. > >Matthew Rogers >Prove it.. >Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. > >-----Original Message----- >From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman@antioch-college.edu] >Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 12:25 AM >To: Matthew Rogers >Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: RE: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies > > > Dear Matthew Rogers, > > > Let me know what web site you are going to and I will try to >borrow time on a www site and go there also. > > I have had enjoyment building Tesla tuned transformers and some of >his resonant circuits. We did not have a good grasp on the neutron until >1932. The "baby neutron" or "tiny neutron" or "little neutron" to use the >humor of the particle physics of the time comes from Enrico Fermi.... >and he and his peers keep the tradition alive. > > > To Build a Set Up to Amplify Hydrogen > > I am an experimentalist and as such revel in a technical puzzle. > > To amplify electrons I use a methods to sense their passing and >the proportion of their passing is used to control or regulate the flow or >a larger reservoir of electrons. > > This is hoe the electrons are "Amplified" ... I think most >electronics experimenters know the amplifier is a sort of a control >mechanism and does not manufacture electrons out of nothing to give us >free power. > > The Hydrogen Amplifier > > I would first set up a hydrogen source and allow a beam of >hydrogen to be formed and accelerate the beam to some nominal moderate >level. > > I would allow the beam to pass through an open 3 element device >made of 3 screens one as a cathode, one as a grid and one as a collector >plate and would use a GENTLE foward flow of current to determine the >nature of the Hydrogen beam. For instance, if the H-Beam was there, not >there, going slow, or medium fast or fast. > > I would then acquire the signal from the Hydrogen Detector, >buffer this signal, amplify it in both voltage and current to very high >levels and cause the now amplified Hydrogen Control Signal to regulate a >valve on the output side of a regulator connected to a fresh tank of dry >hydrogen. > > > Now, I have NO CLUE how the "neutrino amplifier" is supposed to >work, but would be interested to find out. > > If the contributors can plee post a simple description similar to >the one I just qrote for the Hydrogen amplifier, then we may all be closer >to understanding. > > I am particularly interested in the the sensor and generator part >of the neutrino amplifier. > > > > Note to Matthew, please let me know if you get any information and >I will let you know if I find any. > > > John Schnurer > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 11:05:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA14740; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:04:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:04:28 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:07:14 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <006c01c0d900$d2a044c0$1f962640@bear> In-Reply-To: <006c01c0d900$d2a044c0$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01051014071400.00879@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA14690 Resent-Message-ID: <"NtHLf.0.Dc3.hWj-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42495 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 09 May 2001 20:25, Matthew Rogers wrote: > What ? > Amplification does not relate to matter, only energy. It takes MORE energy > to amplify energy , not less, and you may create a resonance tuned to the > atom , but then you create a Laser, because eventually the Amplified energy > will have to go somewhere. > > A capacitor stores electrical energy, but then releases it, and the rate and > amount of release determines the capacitance. > > A Resistor prevents energy from traveling along a path, > > And an amplifier takes a small input and creates a larger output. It is > nothing more than a flow controller, and it by itself cannot do anything > like you describe. > > A Coil takes a very low voltage with a high current and turns it into a very > high voltage with a low current. > > Conservation of energy still takes place. You cannot get something for > nothing. In fact the law of the universe is you get nothing or less than > something for something. > > We can store energy, we can convert it, but if you have a low amount of > energy, to convert it to a higher amount requires NO loss in manufacture, > and as of the creation of the universe, its never been done. > > Some one invented a diode once. It has the action of only allowing energy to > flow in one direction. However, it needs energy to activate, and therefore > reduces the energy you flow past it. Some one connected 2 diodes together in > a certain fashion, and therefore created a transistor, worsened the problem. > It adds noise to the formula. > > Matter can be moved and molded and changed all with a cost of energy to do > so. Matter can store energy in its electrical field, and its inertia, and it > can release energy when you break it down, but you cannot create matter from > energy. The entire amount of matter created from the untold hours of > particle collisions around the world in all the colliding equipment ever > made could fit between this --> <-- and weigh about a gram. > > Considering all the Energy used to make that much matter, that should more > than prove to you that there is no free lunch. > > Matthew Rogers > Prove it.. > Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman@antioch-college.edu] > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 12:25 AM > To: Matthew Rogers > Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies > > > Dear Matthew Rogers, > > > Let me know what web site you are going to and I will try to > borrow time on a www site and go there also. > > I have had enjoyment building Tesla tuned transformers and some of > his resonant circuits. We did not have a good grasp on the neutron until > 1932. The "baby neutron" or "tiny neutron" or "little neutron" to use the > humor of the particle physics of the time comes from Enrico Fermi.... > and he and his peers keep the tradition alive. > > > To Build a Set Up to Amplify Hydrogen > > I am an experimentalist and as such revel in a technical puzzle. > > To amplify electrons I use a methods to sense their passing and > the proportion of their passing is used to control or regulate the flow or > a larger reservoir of electrons. > > This is hoe the electrons are "Amplified" ... I think most > electronics experimenters know the amplifier is a sort of a control > mechanism and does not manufacture electrons out of nothing to give us > free power. > > The Hydrogen Amplifier > > I would first set up a hydrogen source and allow a beam of > hydrogen to be formed and accelerate the beam to some nominal moderate > level. > > I would allow the beam to pass through an open 3 element device > made of 3 screens one as a cathode, one as a grid and one as a collector > plate and would use a GENTLE foward flow of current to determine the > nature of the Hydrogen beam. For instance, if the H-Beam was there, not > there, going slow, or medium fast or fast. > > I would then acquire the signal from the Hydrogen Detector, > buffer this signal, amplify it in both voltage and current to very high > levels and cause the now amplified Hydrogen Control Signal to regulate a > valve on the output side of a regulator connected to a fresh tank of dry > hydrogen. > > > Now, I have NO CLUE how the "neutrino amplifier" is supposed to > work, but would be interested to find out. > > If the contributors can plee post a simple description similar to > the one I just qrote for the Hydrogen amplifier, then we may all be closer > to understanding. > > I am particularly interested in the the sensor and generator part > of the neutrino amplifier. > > > > Note to Matthew, please let me know if you get any information and > I will let you know if I find any. > > > John Schnurer Congratulations John, you just described a vacuum tube. A 'Triode'. These were all the rage......back in 1923! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 11:28:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24650; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:27:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:27:03 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010509152148.02907e30@pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010508133450.0290a390@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010508133450.0290a390@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010509152148.02907e30@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:26:57 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Wasting energy as a private and sacred ritual Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"FihWi2.0.316.srj-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42496 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >thomas malloy wrote: > >>>policymakers to protect the American way of life. The American way >>>of life is a blessed one." >> >>I agree, we need to find sources of energy which will allow us to >>continue our way of life. Jed Rothwell wrote; > I think we have already found one in the form of cold fusion. However, if it does not pan out, we can maintain the American way of life a lot more cheaply by buying Japanese and European technology. Apparently the vice president thinks we are too stupid to make efficient machinery ourselves, so I suppose will have to buy from our commercial rivals who somehow manage to squeeze three times more productivity I tried to sell energy efficient equipment in the early '80's. The only way to get Americans to conserve is to raise the price so high that they squeek. I think that $5 per gallon gas will do it. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 11:29:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25014; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:28:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:28:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:28:21 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Fwd: [svpvril] Controlling pollution with ultrasound Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"JzhCX2.0.i66.tsj-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42498 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What you think of this? > >Subject: [svpvril] Controlling pollution with ultrasound > >Findings may boost efforts to destroy pollutants with ultrasound > >4/26/2001 Engineers at Purdue University (West Lafayette, IN), in efforts to >develop an effective system that uses ultrasound to clean polluted water, have >pinpointed the frequency that degrades certain kinds of pollutants >most efficiently. > >http://www.laboratorynetwork.com/read/sp20010503/424527 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 11:29:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24691; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:27:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:27:05 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010508164802.02942750@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010508164802.02942750@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:26:57 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: More About the Small Comet Theory Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"MRn2C3.0.V16.trj-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42497 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >***{You need to run the numbers, Rick. If you do, you will find that a 10 >mg snowflake moving at 10 km/sec has an energy of (1/2)mV^2 = >(1/2)(.01)[(10^6)^2] = 5x10^9 ergs, whereas an 18 gm lead bullet coming out >of the muzzle of a .45 auto at 500 fps has an energy of a mere >(1/2)(18)[(15240)^2] = 2.09x10^9 ergs. Bottom line: a snowflake between the >eyes at 10 km/sec is going to kill you more than twice as dead as a .45 >slug between the eyes. :-) --MJ}*** The above is a very interesting calculation Mitchell. It is prophised that "hail stones" of between 75 to 125 pounds will fall on the Russian Army as they are poised in northern Palestine. I would assume that these ice cubes would come more or less straight in, so I wonder how fast they will be traveling at impact? They will smash Gog and his army to pulp. Now I can understand why. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 12:18:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA11178; Thu, 10 May 2001 12:16:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:16:54 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010510150657.02920b08@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:16:46 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wasting energy as a private and sacred ritual In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010509152148.02907e30@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010508133450.0290a390@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010508133450.0290a390@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010509152148.02907e30@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"zKPZX3.0.Xk2.aak-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42499 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >I tried to sell energy efficient equipment in the early '80's. The only >way to get Americans to conserve is to raise the price so high that they >squeek. I think that $5 per gallon gas will do it. Either raise the price of energy, or lower the cost of efficiency. We have a distinct advantage here, because we are "followers." The Europeans and Japanese have already spent the money to develop these things, all we have to do is buy them or license them. From 1870 until 1980 or so, the Japanese were technologically behind the U.S., so they could buy many ready-made solutions to their problems from us. Now we are in a position to do the same thing. Of course high fuel costs will spur efficiency, which will then turn gradually push the costs back down, which will retard progress in efficiency. However, economic forces alone cannot clean up the air or develop CF. When you make clean air -- or more specifically, the right to pollute -- a commodity that can be bought or sold, then economic forces can operate. When you push CF past the scientific research stage, then economic forces take over and finish the job. The idea of selling pollution rights sounds terrible, but the actual implementation in the U.S. and Europe has been remarkably effective. The trick is squeeze the market year by year, reducing the overall outstanding "basket" of pollution rights. This has done wonders for wind power in Europe. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 14:17:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21683; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:14:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:14:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3AFB04AF.AAE735A4@groupz.net> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 17:14:23 -0400 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Possible artificial structures on mars...slide show Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uOcUn3.0.hI5.CJm-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42500 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Check them out....link top left of page.... http://www.metaresearch.org/ steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 15:38:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA18852; Thu, 10 May 2001 15:36:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:36:21 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: "free energy" Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:35:44 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000101c0d962$04c33be0$d5181ad8@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <000101c0d962$04c33be0$d5181ad8@oemcomputer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA18815 Resent-Message-ID: <"IPmSI2.0.Uc4.bVn-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42501 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Thu, 10 May 2001 07:35:01 -0700: It looks like a souped up Savonius rotor. However the question remains, where is the energy stored when the wind isn't blowing? [snip] >>introduce a product called the "Wind Tree" It is an electrical generator >>with no moving parts that produces enough electricity to meet the needs of >>your house, hotel or whatever you want. The technology is our of Germany >>and will be marketed exclusively through the MLM company. If you want to >>see pictures of their working prototypes go to: >http://www.ecoquestintl.com/ [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 16:13:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA03753; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502174022.02900de8@pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010426174338.02814530@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:01:09 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Resent-Message-ID: <"PI1vM3.0.Kw.Dwn-w"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42502 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{Incorrect. A kilogram of uranite (UO2) contains about 880 g of uranium, >>which in turn contains 6.34 g of U-235. That is 6.34/235 = .027 moles, or >>1.62x10^22 atoms which are available for fission. The total energy release >>per fission for U-235 is about 200 MeV, so that gives us 3.25x10^24 MeV/kg >>of Uranite, which is 2.24x10^8 BTU's/lb. Heats of combustion for the best >>grades of coal, by way of contrast, are about 14.6 BTU's/lb. The >>implication: you would need to extract 15,337,778 lbs of the very best >>coal, to produce the amount of energy contained in a pound of uranite. Jed Rothwell wrote: >That's wrong, according to the ANS and every other source I know of. ***{This is not a matter of someone's opinion: it is a matter of straightforward calculation. Therefore, let me expand on that calculation, in order to make it easier for you to follow, and, thus, to criticize, if you can: (1) I contend that the mineral called uranite has the chemical formula UO2, and that ore bodies containing it (e.g., pitchblende) are one of the commercially mined sources of fuel for nuclear power plants. (See, for example, Simon and Schuster's *Guide to Rocks and Minerals*, pg. 81.) (2) I contend that the chemical formula for uranite is UO2. (Op. cit., pg. 81) (3) I contend that the average atomic weight of naturally occuring uranium on Earth is, rounded to 3-digit accuracy, 238 amu. [See the "Table of the Isotopes" in any fairly recent edition of the *Handbook of Chemistry and Physics*] (4) I contend that the average atomic weight of naturally occuring oxygen on Earth is 16.0 amu, rounded to 3 digits. [Op. cit.] (5) I contend, as a result of the above, that the ratio of the mass of the uranium in a molecule of UO2 to the total mass of the molecule is 238/[238 + 2(16)] = .881 (6) I contend that, as a consequence of the preceding, there are .881(1000) = 881 grams of uranium in a kilogram of uranite. (7) I contend that the percentage abundance of U-235 in naturally occurring uranium on Earth is .72 (Op. cit.). (8) I contend that the amount of U-235 in a kilogram of uranite is therefore .0072(881) = 6.35 grams. (9) Since a mole of U-235, by definition, contains 235 grams, it follows that the proportion of a mole of U-235 in a kg of uranite is 6.35/235 = .027 (10) Since a mole of any substance contains 6.022x10^23 atoms (Avogadro's number), it follows that there are .027(6.022x10^23) = 1.63x10^22 atoms of U-235 in a kilogram of uranite. (11) I contend that the total fission yield of U-235 is roughly 200 MeV per atom. The required explanation begins with the fact that nucleons lose mass when they are assembled together to form a nucleus, and the energy equivalent of the "mass defect" is known as the "binding energy" of the nucleus. This is the amount of energy that must be added to the nucleus, to separate it into its component parts. Since typical products of the fission of U-235 have masses falling into the range from 80 to 150 a.m.u., and since the mass defect ("binding energy") per nucleon in that range is about 8.5 MeV, while that for U-235 itself is about 7.6 MeV (see, for example, the graph on pg. 184, in *Nuclear Physics*, by Irving Kaplan), the implication is that about 8.5 - 7.6 = .9 MeV per nucleon is lost to the environment when a U-235 atom is split into two parts. Since a neutron must enter a U-235 nucleus to trigger fission, 236 nucleons are involved, and thus a typical fission yield for a U-235 nucleus would be about .9(236) = 212 MeV. (Note: plucking values from a graph is somewhat inaccurate. The actual measured value is about 200 MeV, which I will use below.) (12) By virtue of (10) and (11), above, it follows that the total energy released by the fission of the U-235 in uranite is 200(1.63x10^22) = 3.26x10^24 MeV/kg. That is equivalent to 1.48x10^30 eV/lb. Looking in the table of conversion factors in the *Handbook*, I find that eV to ergs requires a factor of 1.6x10^-12, and that ergs to BTU requires a factor of 9.48x10^-11. Thus we obtain (1.48x10^30)(1.6x10^-12)(9.48x10^-11) = 2.24x10^8 BTU's/lb, which is the nuclear energy content of a lb. of uranite, as I said originally. (13) The heat of combustion of the highest grade of coal is 14.6 BTU's/lb. My source was one of the old editions of the *Handbook*--specifically: the 40th edition (1959). You won't find this info in the newer editions, because it has been deleted due to lack of space. However, you can probably find it on the web, or perhaps in a library if all else fails. (14) The ratio of the energy in a pound of uranite to the energy in a pound of coal thus turns out to be 2.24x10^8 BTU/14.6 BTU = 1.53x10^7. You would therefore need to extract more than 15 million lbs of the very best commercial grade of coal, to produce the amount of energy contained in a pound of uranite, which is exactly what I said originally. Bottom line: the enormously greater concentration of energy in nuclear fuel means that vastly fewer persons are going to be exposed to accidents during its mining, transportation, refining, and consumption, per megawatt of energy produced, than for any presently usable alternative--which means: nuclear power is mind-bogglingly safer than any of its alternatives, and, if not burdened with a vast proliferation of ridiculous "safety" regulations, it would be mind-bogglingly cheaper as well. --Mitchell Jones}*** I have >a sample fake uranium fuel pellet from the ANS. The package says it has as >much energy as 3 barrels of oil (126 gallons) or 1 ton of coal (2,000 >lbs.). I cannot find the precise mass of the fuel pellet, but my ruler >shows the size is 1.5 cm x 0.8 cm, which comes to 0.75 cm^3. U fuel weighs >10.2 grams per cubic cm, so that's 7.7 grams, or 0.017 lbs. In other words, >the ratio is 1:117,647. ***{That is ridiculous. A fake fuel pellet obviously contains far less uranium than a real fuel pellet. If it contained as much, it would be real, not fake. In fact, you can probably use the info you quoted, above, to calculate how much uranium is actually in your fake fuel pellet. Since it contains enough U-235 to be equivalent to 1 English ton of coal, that would be about 2000(14.6) = 29,200 BTU's. Since each atom of U-235 yields 2x10^8 eV upon fissioning, that equates to 3.03x10^-14 BTU's/atom. Therefore, since your fake pellet contains enough to yield 29,200 BTU's, it must contain (29200)/(3.03x10^-14) = 9.6x10^17 atoms of U-235. Since the proportionate abundance of U-235 is .0072, we obtain .0072X = 9.6x10^17, where X is the total number of atoms of Uranium in your fake fuel pellet. Solving, we find that your pellet contains X = 1.34x10^20 atoms of uranium. Total weight of the uranium in your fake fuel pellet, therefore, is (1.34x10^20/6.022x10^23)(238) = .0528 grams. That sounds reasonable to me, since there would be no safety issues involved with so tiny an amount, especially if embedded in an inert carrier (e.g., borosilicate glass). Anyway, regardless of the nature and composition of your fake fuel pellet, it is irrelevant to the calculation that I detailed earlier, which demonstrates that more than 15 million pounds of coal must be extracted to obtain the energy in a pound of uranite. Like it or not, you are going to have to find an error in that calculation, or your entire position will be rendered untenable by it. --Mitchell Jones}*** >>That means even the lowest grade uranium ore that is used in commerce has a >>mind-bogglingly higher energy content per pound than the highest grade coal >>that is used. > >The ore is not pure when it comes out of the ground, whereas the coal is. ***{Uranium deposits vary in terms of purity, just like coal deposits. Result: in both cases, the ore must be processed after extraction, to eliminate extraneous material. Coal, for example, passes through a tipple or breaker mill, where it is washed and sorted, and the impurities--e.g., slate--are removed. --MJ}*** >The ore must be concentrated, purified and processed, which takes a great >deal of energy. By the time you are finished, I believe the ratio is around >1:1,000 ***{Let me see if I've got this straight: the raw ore has up to 15 million times as much energy as coal, but after it has been "concentrated," "purified," and "processed," the ratio drops to "around 1;1000"? It's time to wake up, Jed! --MJ}*** but that still does not cover the dollar and energy expense of >disposing of the spent fuel. ***{You are shifting away from the issue: the subject we have been discussing is the *comparative safety* of nuclear, not its comparative costs. Costs, as I have noted repeatedly, have been vastly increased by absurd "safety" regulations, such as, for example, those controlling the disposal of spent fuel. --MJ}*** Recycling is an entirely different matter. > > >> And, since the mechanics of mining do not vary much >>regardless of whether uranium or coal is being extracted . . . > >Actually, they do. Uranium is poisonous, so mining has to be done more >carefully, at much greater expense. ***{Coal miners die like flies from black lung disease, cave ins, and a multitude of other causes, most of which have analogues in uranium mining. The main difference impacting safety, however, is the number of workers exposed per BTU of energy extracted, and, as I demonstrated above and previously, that factor confers an *enormous* safety advantage on nuclear as opposed to coal, wind power, or any other technique presently known. --MJ}*** >>, that in turn >>means vastly, mind-bogglingly fewer workers need to be involved in the >>extraction process . . . > >Fewer workers are needed to mine the ore, but more are needed to process it >and prepare and test the pellets. In any case, labor is only a small >fraction of the cost of any energy system. ***{We are not talking about cost, but about safety. (I repeat: the cost of nuclear power has been enormously increased by the vast array of ridiculous "safety" regulations that have been heaped upon it.) And safety is, for industrial processes that are conducted according to best practices, primarily a function of the number of persons who are at risk. Since hundreds of thousands or millions of times as many persons are going to be at risk if our energy needs are met by conventional means, as opposed to nuclear means, it follows inexorably that nuclear power is, by far, the safest method of power generation. *Nothing else is even close.* --MJ}*** >>***{To meet the power needs of the U.S. with windmills, mind-boggling >>numbers would have to be manufactured, transported to appropriate sites, >>erected, and maintained. > >The numbers are not mind boggling at all. Recomputing the numbers below . . >. Late model turbines produce 1.0 to 2.5 MW per turbine, so we would need >about 30,000 in large states like Texas and California. Say 750,000 to >1,000,000 nationwide. The mass of material and construction cost would be >less than the materials used by the U.S. fleet 4.1 million commercial >trucks. The machines last longer than a truck or railroad engine; projected >lifetimes are now 30 years. ***{Any way you slice it, vastly greater numbers of workers are going to be at risk throughout the production process, by comparison to nuclear energy, due to the non-concentrated form of the energy which must be extracted by windmills. That is simply a fact, and no amount of talk from you is going to change it. --MJ}*** >This mass of towers and turbines would eliminate the need for oil well >heads and pumps, ocean well drill platforms, strip mines and other fossil >fuel infrastructure, which also takes up a lot of space, materials, and >energy. ***{You are switching the subject. We are comparing nuclear to wind power, not fossil fuels to wind power. Nevertheless, fossil fuel power generation relies on more concentrated sources than wind power. Thus, overall, we can expect that fewer persons will be put at risk by it than will be put at risk by wind power. By comparison to nuclear, however, both fossil fuel and wind power are hideously unsafe. --MJ}*** >> That would require exposing vastly greater numbers >>of workers to accidents . . . > >Incorrect. The accident rate for large scale wind installations is lower >than in the fossil fuel extraction and energy generation business, by all >measurements, including accidents per MWH. ***{I repeat: we are comparing the safety of nuclear power to wind power, not the safety of fossil fuels to wind power. Even ignoring that, however, your argument is flawed, for two basic reasons: (1) Accident rates are not what matters here, since the object of concern is the *total* number of accidents that we can expect, per megawatt of energy produced, using the various alternative sources of energy. Thus our proper focus is not on the accident rates per se, but rather rather on the products formed by multiplying the accident rates times the total number of man hours worked to produce a given amount of energy. In the case of nuclear, with comparable accident rates per man-hour and vastly, mind-bogglingly fewer man-hours worked, it doesn't take a genius to realize that nuclear is vastly safer. Unfortunately, we cannot actually do such calculations, because the types of "accident rate" numbers which are presently available are inappropriate. (See explanation in (2), below.) (2) Industrial accident rates, as presently constituted, are essentially meaningless due to the varying amounts of vertical integration in differing industries and, thus, to the varying portions of the total exposed population of workers that will be reflected in calculated accident rates. To compute the deaths and injuries associated with wind power, for example, you would need to count the accidents which take place when the raw materials that are fabricated into windmills are extracted from the ground, as well as those which take place when the ores are transported, those which take place when they are refined, those which take place when they are fabricated into sheet metal, nuts, bolts, etc. However, those accidents take place *outside* of what is generally considered to be "the wind-power industry," and they are in fact *not* counted when calculating accident rates per man-hour worked in that industry. The point: "industry" is a term that is based on convention more than on the application of a uniform set of criteria. Because the degree of vertical integration varies from industry to industry, industrial safety statistics are utterly meaningless as a basis for comparison, where the safety records of alternative technologies are concerned. The implication of (1) and (2) is this: an entirely new statistical series would have to be laboriously constructed, in order to compare the numbers of injuries and deaths which would result from producing a megawatt of electricity from coal as opposed to natural gas, to wind turbines, to nuclear fission, etc. Fortunately, we do not need such numbers to evaluate the relative safety of nuclear energy. It is vastly more concentrated, and, thus, exposes vastly fewer workers per megawatt produced. There is simply *no way* that the appropriate accident rates per man-hour, if known, could be high enough to offset the vast reduction in man-hours required, thereby leading to higher accident totals. Bottom line: to any person who sees with his own eyes and thinks with his own brain, it becomes crudely obvious that nuclear power must be vastly safer than any presently known alternative, once its more highly concentrated nature is recognized. --Mitchell Jones}*** Industry safety is a big issue >these days, and topics like this are carefully researched. Almost all >serious accidents occur during the construction and maintenance of wind >towers; the accident rate during operation is zero, because the towers are >fully automatic, and unattended. Wind is particularly well suited to >automatic operation. Even hydro installations require more maintenance. >Roughly the same number of accidents occur during the construction and >maintenance phase of fossil fuel and nuclear plants and mines as wind >towers, but many more accidents occur during the operation, which is not >fully automatic. ***{Wind turbines require maintenance just as surely as any other machinery that has moving parts: lubricants must be replenished, components must be checked for wear and repaired or replaced as required. And since there are vastly greater numbers of moving parts involved in the extraction of a megawatt of power from a diffuse source such as the wind, than in the extraction of a megawatt of power from a concentrated source such as nuclear, it is crudely obvious that the total number of personnel involved, and thus at risk, is vastly greater. Bottom line: the appropriate standard of comparison is *total accidents per megawatt of energy produced*, and disconnected numbers, plucked at random off the web, which make no attempt to address the question in that form, are manifestly irrelevant to the issue. --Mitchell Jones}*** >Small scale wind installations managed by farmers and homeowners are a lot >more dangerous. > > >> >> Result: to generate a megawatt of electricity, far fewer >> >> > persons are exposed to accidents in extraction, transportation, >> refining, >> >> > consumption, and disposal of waste, for nuclear, than for any other >> power >> >> > source. > >This result is imaginary and totally incorrect. It is made without >reference to actual industry statistics, studies, or other materials >available for free on web. It reminds me of the anti-CF factions who >endlessly spin numbers and facts out of thin air, without reading anything >or knowing anything about the subject at hand. ***{As usual, you are nattering on and on in seemingly knowledgeable fashion about numbers which you do not understand, while hurling pejoratives at those who do understand. Of course, considering your alternative--i.e., admitting that you are wrong--where is the surprise? :-) --MJ}*** >>Specifically, to generate the average U.S. daily electricity output of >>766,000 MW using the most efficient wind technology currently available >>would require the installation of 464,242 of the 1.65 MW Vestas V66 wind >>turbines. The V66, however, is a gigantic, Rube Goldberg type of machine: >>to support its three 33 m (108 ft) blades, each V66 requires a massive >>welded steel tower with a height of 60 to 100 m (197 to 328 feet) and a >>weight in excess of 80 metric tons . . . > >So what? How much do the 4 million trucks weigh? How long would these >machines last, and how complicated are they compared to conventional >aeroderivative gas fired turbines? Talk about a Rube Goldberg machine! A >gas turbine has to operate in much more extreme conditions than a wind >turbine. ***{As noted repeatedly above, the point at issue between us has been the relative safety of nuclear power vs. that of wind power, not the relative safety of fossil fuel power vs. wind power. But, hey, if you can't win on the merits, you can always try to switch the subject! :-) --MJ}*** >- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 10 20:38:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA24037; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:36:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:36:20 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010510211153.00d11a90@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:38:06 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) Cc: billheilman51@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <000a01c0d963$d8227360$d5181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"yzU3X.0.Vt5.qur-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42503 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:13 AM 5/10/01 -0700, Bruce Meland wrote: >www.electrifyingtimes.com Geese now I know why the auto manufactures are having such trouble selling these things.... Mangy dog's butt ugly nerd mobiles You would think they would put some effort into body design. like maybe a simple sedan or hatch back shape or something that actually looks like a car. That Corbin looks like a Fischer Price child's toy. Which I suppose is OK since it only seems to come in Fischer Price collors. I would rather throw down 20K on a modified old beater dodge colt then be caught dead in one of these Think City: An egg with little egg wheels... Whack that with the SUV parked next to it and you have a pile of broken egg shell. It looks like its trying to think up a good excuse. "I've ben sick" But then the target market is the bunch that put Jerry Brown and his VW Bug in the governors mansion for two terms. Oh that's right Jerry never used the governors mansion. Honda is looking good for a spit shined 77 Datsun. I actually like this one. And the Sprocket is a very sexy car but you know what happens to concept designs. It: Well... Good Name Now the Toyota Prius: Now that is a car... Best in show Right next to the Ford. But the Ford is not ready yet. Also... You are not going to sell one of these things in the south of the 35th unless you insulate it to the eyeballs and provide an air conditioner. It will NOT de-congest city traffic and I for one do not wish to die of heat exhaustion at 5:30PM on august 5th sitting in a little bubble waiting for afternoon rush hour traffic to clear up in the Dallas mix. This is no joke folks the summer heat can kill you. By the way I just bought a 2000 Nissan for about 10K. I looked for electric but nobody had any. Um availability counts also. You can't sell what you don't have. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 01:04:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA22269; Fri, 11 May 2001 01:03:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 01:03:25 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 04:09:50 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: Amplify? The maplify, below... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3LtqR3.0.pR5.Cpv-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42504 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The amplify, below, is an example of an exercise. This is not suggested to be a new-ogh-wow method of doing anything.... it is a simple educational discussion hopefully helping some persons to understand what amplify means, usually. The reason forthis exercise is to ask ...by example... What is meant by amplifying a neutrino in the minds of the posters, below.. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:49:30 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies (fwd) Dear Folks, How do we amplify sub atomic particles? How to amplify a neutrino... or, forthat matter, an electron, or a proton, or a neutron? Can we amplify hydrogen? I say ...YES! We can amplify Hydrogen and Electrons and Helium. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 06:05:52 -0700 From: Bruce Meland To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: etimes@teleport.com, John Schnurer , "Remy C." , pgp@padrak.com, scarey9622@aol.com, Debbie Foch Subject: Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Hi Mathew; Maybe you should listen to Dr Steven Greer's Press Conference on May 9th at the National Press Club(coordinator@cseti.org) where he will have ex high up govt and military types come forward to testify how the CIA has covered up these advanced energy and propulsion technologies for reasons of national security.According to Dr Greer we have this technology in our antigravity craft now stationed at Pine Gap as well as sattelites with particle beam weaponry(Tesla Technology the OSS confisicated from his residence when he died that have already shot down foreign objects and UFO's. Present Anti- ABM treaty posturing is just political B.S. Also to get up to speed on these advanced propulsion technologies, Area 51 type stuff,. that go far beyond nuclear, and much cheaper cleaner check out our web site www.electrifyingtimes.com where we are announcing nutrino amplification technologies that will make solar and wind power obsolite.(Nutrinovoltaic device that weighs10 lb(half the size of a telephone book) and puts out 1200 watts). Only problem right now is the national security issues and not patentable status of these devices that convert nutrinos to electricity; and supression=raids of Tesla type inventor labs that have found lost Tesla notes and patents, ect. Also there is a surplus of ag products here in the NW with grain unions and most other ag products in the tank(farmers going bankrupt) and recent circuit court ruling will require farmers to to be compensated for taking of their water and with the electricity rebates. the farmers will make more money not growing crops that are below the cost of production and will make some money for a change. This program will also reduce feed and food supplies, hence better prices for the Columbia and Thule Lake farmers in another year, when hopefully water supplies will be more abundant. Cheers Bruce Meland, editor Electrifying Times -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Rogers To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:57 PM Subject: RE: Ornithopter! >Mitch, > Great reply however this thread was turned from ornithopter to Nuclear >fission. >You are correct, thousands of megawatts are safely delivered to your light >bulb every day around the world with nuclear power. > >Nuclear power propulsion is the only means we can tour and develop the solar >system for space exploration. Even if laser implosion fusion comes about as >in some science fiction novels, you still have a risk no matter what you do. > >Here in the Pacific Northwest the environmentalist waco's want us to send >the water down the river for the fish at the cost of power and farming, so >they never thought our power bill would go up. > >When the dam's were designed, the fish were not accounted for , so instead >of designing FISH ladders out of concrete, they want to tear down some free >gravity energy electrical generators. > >Go figure. > >Matt > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones@jump.net] >Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:14 PM >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: RE: Ornithopter! > >>Matthew Rogers wrote: >> >>All the issues I have seen used both in this discussion group and on the >>>world news as a BAD example of science, actually are not bad science, but >>>some idiot who was promoted past his level of competence, pushing a button >>>without reading the manual, or making a decision without an understanding >of >>>the truth. >>> >>>Chernobyl.. >>>Three mile Island. >>>The space shuttle >>>The latest sinking oil platform in south America >> >>A machine which can be destroyed by "some idiot" pushing "a button" is >>badly designed. I do not know much about Chernobyl, but the Three Mile >>Island (TMI) accident was caused by bad human engineering. In particular, >>many vital instruments hid the truth instead of displaying it. This is not >>bad science, but it is bad engineering. >> >>Since the TMI accident, major improvements have been power plant human >>factors engineering, so another accident of a similar nature is unlikely. >>However, as Ed Storms points out, fission is inherently dangerous. > >***{Energy is dangerous stuff. Result: all forms of power generation are >"inherently dangerous." Thus relative safety is the only criterion by which >alternative systems of power generation can be compared, and, on that >basis, fission is *by far* the safest of them all. The reason: it is the >most concentrated power source now known. That means there is far more >energy concentrated in a pound of uranium than in a pound of coal, or oil, >or gasoline, etc. Result: to generate a megawatt of electricity, far fewer >persons are exposed to accidents in extraction, transportation, refining, >consumption, and disposal of waste, for nuclear, than for any other power >source. Result: fewer accidents, and fewer deaths. (For vast detail on this >topic, see *The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear*, by Dr. Petr >Beckmann.) --MJ}*** > >It is >>better than coal, but still not good enough. Every expert in fission I have >>ever heard from would agree with Ed. > >***{Then you must not get out much. For an alternative opinion, ask Dr. >Edward Teller what he has to say on the subject, or Dr. Bernard Cohen, or a >multitude of others. Nobody who knows much about the actual comparative >risks of fission and other power sources goes around hinting that fission >power plants are less safe than the alternatives. Unfortunately, >technophobes on the left, who are the most addle-brained elitist dupes >around, have been beating the drums against fission power for decades, and >the average person's opinions on this topic are utterly wrong as a result. >But, hey, where's the surprise in that, right? :-) --MJ}*** > >>- Jed > >________________ >Quote of the month: > >"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only >exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from >the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the >candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the >result that a democracy collapses due to loose fiscal policy ... always >followed by a dictatorship." --Alexis de Tocqueville > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 01:39:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA28944; Fri, 11 May 2001 01:39:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 01:39:07 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 04:45:29 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Terry Blanton cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Announcement from Jim Cox In-Reply-To: <3AF9A561.6AFA6E6E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UAzyB3.0.A47.hKw-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42505 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jim made and demonstrated a "lifting" machine.... I think it uses mechanical forcing of mass and makes a lot of noise, or one model did. I did hear hee was trying to get it to go beyong 100 percents. I will try to find details about where his demonstrations were, but in Reno as I recall. An honest guy, no magic involved, just the movement of masses by gears and so on. On Wed, 9 May 2001, Terry Blanton wrote: > thomas malloy wrote: > > > > Has anybody ever heard of this guy? > > Cox publishes Antigravity News whose site was in the message you > forwarded: > > http://www.padrak.com/agn/ > > I did not know that he did direct research also. > > Regards, > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 02:07:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA01625; Fri, 11 May 2001 02:06:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 02:06:33 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 05:12:58 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Standing Bear cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: READERS....plify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies In-Reply-To: <01051014071400.00879@linux> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ImV-l.0.HP.Pkw-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42506 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To those who read my little exercise on amplifers... It is an exercise... not an invetion.... It is intended to... maybe... jog some of the authors who post about a "New energy" design..... and maybe they will let us in on a general method to replicate the work. For many years myself and others have been trying our own ideas, hoping others ideas will work and generally trying to forward energy investigations ..... I try to ask pointed questions when confronted by word salad..... but, hey, ask some of the others who have been contributing to and lurking on Vortex for the last few years. Same question: Looking for real work, "hardball, nuts and bolts, belt and suspenders" engineering. We will all get there more quickly if we post clear, clean work using, in as far as we can, common terminology. AND.... where there is no common terminology, define the new term so everyone can understand it. Q: How many "new" types of "special" term for energy, or magnetism, or electricity or other effects have you come across in the last 10 years? How many clean clear definitions of these new terms have allowed you to build a replication of the device or effect which operates in a reliable manner? I will continue to search.... On Thu, 10 May 2001, Standing Bear wrote: > On Wednesday 09 May 2001 20:25, Matthew Rogers wrote: > > What ? > > Amplification does not relate to matter, only energy. It takes MORE energy > > to amplify energy , not less, and you may create a resonance tuned to the > > atom , but then you create a Laser, because eventually the Amplified energy > > will have to go somewhere. > > > > A capacitor stores electrical energy, but then releases it, and the rate and > > amount of release determines the capacitance. > > > > A Resistor prevents energy from traveling along a path, > > > > And an amplifier takes a small input and creates a larger output. It is > > nothing more than a flow controller, and it by itself cannot do anything > > like you describe. > > > > A Coil takes a very low voltage with a high current and turns it into a very > > high voltage with a low current. > > > > Conservation of energy still takes place. You cannot get something for > > nothing. In fact the law of the universe is you get nothing or less than > > something for something. > > > > We can store energy, we can convert it, but if you have a low amount of > > energy, to convert it to a higher amount requires NO loss in manufacture, > > and as of the creation of the universe, its never been done. > > > > Some one invented a diode once. It has the action of only allowing energy to > > flow in one direction. However, it needs energy to activate, and therefore > > reduces the energy you flow past it. Some one connected 2 diodes together in > > a certain fashion, and therefore created a transistor, worsened the problem. > > It adds noise to the formula. > > > > Matter can be moved and molded and changed all with a cost of energy to do > > so. Matter can store energy in its electrical field, and its inertia, and it > > can release energy when you break it down, but you cannot create matter from > > energy. The entire amount of matter created from the untold hours of > > particle collisions around the world in all the colliding equipment ever > > made could fit between this --> <-- and weigh about a gram. > > > > Considering all the Energy used to make that much matter, that should more > > than prove to you that there is no free lunch. > > > > Matthew Rogers > > Prove it.. > > Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman@antioch-college.edu] > > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 12:25 AM > > To: Matthew Rogers > > Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: RE: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies > > > > > > Dear Matthew Rogers, > > > > > > Let me know what web site you are going to and I will try to > > borrow time on a www site and go there also. > > > > I have had enjoyment building Tesla tuned transformers and some of > > his resonant circuits. We did not have a good grasp on the neutron until > > 1932. The "baby neutron" or "tiny neutron" or "little neutron" to use the > > humor of the particle physics of the time comes from Enrico Fermi.... > > and he and his peers keep the tradition alive. > > > > > > To Build a Set Up to Amplify Hydrogen > > > > I am an experimentalist and as such revel in a technical puzzle. > > > > To amplify electrons I use a methods to sense their passing and > > the proportion of their passing is used to control or regulate the flow or > > a larger reservoir of electrons. > > > > This is hoe the electrons are "Amplified" ... I think most > > electronics experimenters know the amplifier is a sort of a control > > mechanism and does not manufacture electrons out of nothing to give us > > free power. > > > > The Hydrogen Amplifier > > > > I would first set up a hydrogen source and allow a beam of > > hydrogen to be formed and accelerate the beam to some nominal moderate > > level. > > > > I would allow the beam to pass through an open 3 element device > > made of 3 screens one as a cathode, one as a grid and one as a collector > > plate and would use a GENTLE foward flow of current to determine the > > nature of the Hydrogen beam. For instance, if the H-Beam was there, not > > there, going slow, or medium fast or fast. > > > > I would then acquire the signal from the Hydrogen Detector, > > buffer this signal, amplify it in both voltage and current to very high > > levels and cause the now amplified Hydrogen Control Signal to regulate a > > valve on the output side of a regulator connected to a fresh tank of dry > > hydrogen. > > > > > > Now, I have NO CLUE how the "neutrino amplifier" is supposed to > > work, but would be interested to find out. > > > > If the contributors can plee post a simple description similar to > > the one I just qrote for the Hydrogen amplifier, then we may all be closer > > to understanding. > > > > I am particularly interested in the the sensor and generator part > > of the neutrino amplifier. > > > > > > > > Note to Matthew, please let me know if you get any information and > > I will let you know if I find any. > > > > > > John Schnurer > > Congratulations John, you just described a vacuum tube. A 'Triode'. > These were all the rage......back in 1923! > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 06:51:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA21835; Fri, 11 May 2001 06:49:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 06:49:46 -0700 Message-ID: <011c01c0da18$a27c4fa0$1c8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: What is this, Jed? Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:46:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0D9EE.7D050A20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"mB01w2.0.5L5.wt--w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42507 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0D9EE.7D050A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0D9EE.7D050A20 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="mapi0.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="mapi0.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAAEBLAEsAAD//gAfTEVBRCBUZWNobm9sb2dpZXMgSW5jLiBWMS4wMQD/2wBD 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UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUhIAyTgUm9f7w/O lBB6EUZHrS0UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUVDdRmWHaoDHIOD0NVTaS4x5URyFH0GOfxpkdndRhdpT5MhRn1605bCXOWYZTATB7ZrRr /9k= ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0D9EE.7D050A20-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 07:56:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA11468; Fri, 11 May 2001 07:54:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:54:36 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010511105325.00a8b7b8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:54:30 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: What is this, Jed? In-Reply-To: <011c01c0da18$a27c4fa0$1c8f85ce@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"jXPae.0.0p2.iq_-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42508 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: "What is this?" Ans: Chinese. It looks like an ad for Sprint telephone service. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 08:03:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15039; Fri, 11 May 2001 08:02:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:02:58 -0700 Message-ID: <001901c0da2b$70c19e80$901a010a@argis.com> From: "Craig Haynie" To: References: <011c01c0da18$a27c4fa0$1c8f85ce@computer> Subject: Re: What is this, Jed? Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:02:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"bg_m03.0.hg3.Vy_-w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42509 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have a Chinese associate. Here is her translation: "We are glad to receive your reply...With this letter, we have enclosed detailed Sprint material, and we wish that this material can help you. We hope it answers your question. If you need further help, contact us at any time. Please remember our customer service is available 7 days a week, 24 hours a day." [No contact information.] Sincerely, Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 08:21:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA22380; Fri, 11 May 2001 08:21:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:21:16 -0700 Message-ID: <015101c0da25$6eeaca60$1c8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <011c01c0da18$a27c4fa0$1c8f85ce@computer> <001901c0da2b$70c19e80$901a010a@argis.com> Subject: Re: What is this, Jed? Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:19:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"UxSg73.0.aT5.gD0_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42510 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Haynie" To: Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 10:02 AM Subject: Re: What is this, Jed? Thanks Guys. I thought for a moment there that my glasses were due for replacement. :-) Regards, Frederick > I have a Chinese associate. Here is her translation: > > "We are glad to receive your reply...With this letter, we have enclosed > detailed Sprint material, and we wish that this material can help you. We > hope it answers your question. If you need further help, contact us at any > time. > > Please remember our customer service is available 7 days a week, 24 hours a > day." > > [No contact information.] > > Sincerely, > > Craig Haynie (Houston) > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 08:32:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25559; Fri, 11 May 2001 08:30:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:30:27 -0700 Message-ID: <001301c0da24$c8a1d220$81181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Wasting energy as a private and sacred ritual Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:15:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"rMipQ.0.EF6.HM0_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42511 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The problem is the raising to $5/gal will bankrupt the US as our whole economy is based on cheap energy. We will go to war to ensure cheap oil and that will perk th eeconomy. That is probably what will happen. -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thursday, May 10, 2001 11:29 AM Subject: Re: Wasting energy as a private and sacred ritual >>thomas malloy wrote: >> >>>>policymakers to protect the American way of life. The American way >>>>of life is a blessed one." >>> >>>I agree, we need to find sources of energy which will allow us to >>>continue our way of life. > > >Jed Rothwell wrote; > >> >I think we have already found one in the form of cold fusion. >However, if it does not pan out, we can maintain the American way of >life a lot more cheaply by buying Japanese and European technology. >Apparently the vice president thinks we are too stupid to make >efficient machinery ourselves, so I suppose will have to buy from our >commercial rivals who somehow manage to squeeze three times more >productivity > >I tried to sell energy efficient equipment in the early '80's. The >only way to get Americans to conserve is to raise the price so high >that they squeek. I think that $5 per gallon gas will do it. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 09:00:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02190; Fri, 11 May 2001 08:59:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:59:58 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c0da28$e8028480$81181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:44:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"7_rOT1.0._X.zn0_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42512 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Consider a photovoltaic pannel whcih which produces 50 watts with 3 sq ft , now if nutrinos have 100 times the energy as light hittting the earth and one figures out how to access that energy(10 years by a PHD EE and not a regergitator type that ends up at universities of govt jobs) and it appears as you draw off the energy, the more amps you draw the more is available, a bottomless pit of energy so to speak. So it isn't amplification just the ability of the devices to access this high frequency energy. -----Original Message----- From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thursday, May 10, 2001 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies >On Wednesday 09 May 2001 20:25, Matthew Rogers wrote: >> What ? >> Amplification does not relate to matter, only energy. It takes MORE energy >> to amplify energy , not less, and you may create a resonance tuned to the >> atom , but then you create a Laser, because eventually the Amplified energy >> will have to go somewhere. >> >> A capacitor stores electrical energy, but then releases it, and the rate and >> amount of release determines the capacitance. >> >> A Resistor prevents energy from traveling along a path, >> >> And an amplifier takes a small input and creates a larger output. It is >> nothing more than a flow controller, and it by itself cannot do anything >> like you describe. >> >> A Coil takes a very low voltage with a high current and turns it into a very >> high voltage with a low current. >> >> Conservation of energy still takes place. You cannot get something for >> nothing. In fact the law of the universe is you get nothing or less than >> something for something. >> >> We can store energy, we can convert it, but if you have a low amount of >> energy, to convert it to a higher amount requires NO loss in manufacture, >> and as of the creation of the universe, its never been done. >> >> Some one invented a diode once. It has the action of only allowing energy to >> flow in one direction. However, it needs energy to activate, and therefore >> reduces the energy you flow past it. Some one connected 2 diodes together in >> a certain fashion, and therefore created a transistor, worsened the problem. >> It adds noise to the formula. >> >> Matter can be moved and molded and changed all with a cost of energy to do >> so. Matter can store energy in its electrical field, and its inertia, and it >> can release energy when you break it down, but you cannot create matter from >> energy. The entire amount of matter created from the untold hours of >> particle collisions around the world in all the colliding equipment ever >> made could fit between this --> <-- and weigh about a gram. >> >> Considering all the Energy used to make that much matter, that should more >> than prove to you that there is no free lunch. >> >> Matthew Rogers >> Prove it.. >> Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman@antioch-college.edu] >> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 12:25 AM >> To: Matthew Rogers >> Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: RE: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies >> >> >> Dear Matthew Rogers, >> >> >> Let me know what web site you are going to and I will try to >> borrow time on a www site and go there also. >> >> I have had enjoyment building Tesla tuned transformers and some of >> his resonant circuits. We did not have a good grasp on the neutron until >> 1932. The "baby neutron" or "tiny neutron" or "little neutron" to use the >> humor of the particle physics of the time comes from Enrico Fermi.... >> and he and his peers keep the tradition alive. >> >> >> To Build a Set Up to Amplify Hydrogen >> >> I am an experimentalist and as such revel in a technical puzzle. >> >> To amplify electrons I use a methods to sense their passing and >> the proportion of their passing is used to control or regulate the flow or >> a larger reservoir of electrons. >> >> This is hoe the electrons are "Amplified" ... I think most >> electronics experimenters know the amplifier is a sort of a control >> mechanism and does not manufacture electrons out of nothing to give us >> free power. >> >> The Hydrogen Amplifier >> >> I would first set up a hydrogen source and allow a beam of >> hydrogen to be formed and accelerate the beam to some nominal moderate >> level. >> >> I would allow the beam to pass through an open 3 element device >> made of 3 screens one as a cathode, one as a grid and one as a collector >> plate and would use a GENTLE foward flow of current to determine the >> nature of the Hydrogen beam. For instance, if the H-Beam was there, not >> there, going slow, or medium fast or fast. >> >> I would then acquire the signal from the Hydrogen Detector, >> buffer this signal, amplify it in both voltage and current to very high >> levels and cause the now amplified Hydrogen Control Signal to regulate a >> valve on the output side of a regulator connected to a fresh tank of dry >> hydrogen. >> >> >> Now, I have NO CLUE how the "neutrino amplifier" is supposed to >> work, but would be interested to find out. >> >> If the contributors can plee post a simple description similar to >> the one I just qrote for the Hydrogen amplifier, then we may all be closer >> to understanding. >> >> I am particularly interested in the the sensor and generator part >> of the neutrino amplifier. >> >> >> >> Note to Matthew, please let me know if you get any information and >> I will let you know if I find any. >> >> >> John Schnurer > >Congratulations John, you just described a vacuum tube. A 'Triode'. >These were all the rage......back in 1923! > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 09:13:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA06045; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:12:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:12:04 -0700 Message-ID: <002401c0da2a$991a67a0$81181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Fw: "free energy" Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:56:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"MjRC3.0.NU1.Kz0_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42513 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have not had time to check into this one and hopefully some one can and as i get more info i will forward it. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thursday, May 10, 2001 3:40 PM Subject: Re: Fw: "free energy" >In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Thu, 10 May 2001 07:35:01 -0700: > >It looks like a souped up Savonius rotor. However the question remains, >where is the energy stored when the wind isn't blowing? > >[snip] >>>introduce a product called the "Wind Tree" It is an electrical generator >>>with no moving parts that produces enough electricity to meet the needs of >>>your house, hotel or whatever you want. The technology is our of Germany >>>and will be marketed exclusively through the MLM company. If you want to >>>see pictures of their working prototypes go to: >>http://www.ecoquestintl.com/ >[snip] >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 09:30:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA11363; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:28:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:28:40 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010511120642.0292cb78@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:28:33 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wasting energy as a private and sacred ritual In-Reply-To: <001301c0da24$c8a1d220$81181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"f5XQk1.0.em2.tC1_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42514 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bruce Meland wrote: >The problem is the raising to $5/gal will bankrupt the US as our whole >economy is based on cheap energy. If the price went up to $5 overnight in might seriously damage the economy. I doubt it would bankrupt the nation. Americans are a lot tougher than people like George Bush give them credit for, and they would quickly find ways to conserve. Since Americans use three times more energy than their competitors, cutting back would only help the economy. If the price climbed to $5 dollars gradually, over ten years, it would not hurt a bit. We would have plenty of time to build more fuel-efficient machines such as automobiles with hybrid engines. Most of the U.S. automobile fleet is replaced after 10 years anyway; it might as well be replaced with with SUVs that get 30 or 50 mpg as ones that get only 20 mpg. Even at $1 per gallon, the additional cost of the motors would soon pay for itself. People in Europe and Japan live with $5 gasoline with no trouble, even in England where they export oil, and they could make it $0.25. Artificially high prices there have caused many protests recently, but I think the public as a hole supports the policy. If it does not it can always vote the politicians out of office. > We will go to war to ensure cheap oil and >that will perk th eeconomy. That is probably what will happen. The Japanese went to war to ensure oil supplies in 1941. It did not perk up their economy. The militarists thought war was the only way to secure supplies of oil and other raw materials. The big corporations (Zaibatsu) which actually used raw materials thought this was a crazy idea. They opposed war. They said they could buy everything they needed despite the U.S. oil embargo. Postwar history proved they were right. Japan, which has almost no natural resources, now purchases all the raw materials it needs on the world market for 5% of its GDP. If the U.S. does go to war over oil -- again -- it will be almost as stupid as Japan was when it attacked Pearl Harbor. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 09:35:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13149; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:34:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:34:36 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0da2d$bd593ee0$5b181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: , , , Cc: "Gary Vesperman" , "John Bryan" , Subject: Fw: Disclosure by Michael Brownlee Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:04:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"FWaOR3.0.JD3.SI1_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42515 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Remy C. To: Bruce Meland Date: Thursday, May 10, 2001 9:09 AM Subject: Disclosure by Michael Brownlee >From: "Michael Brownlee" >Subject: [SO] The Problem with "Disclosure" >Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:35:09 -0700 > > >THE PROBLEM WITH "DISCLOSURE" > >by Michael Brownlee >Publisher, Awakening World >(www.visibiliti.com) > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >"In no other area of human experience has so much >evidence existed for so long, and yet been attended >by such a paucity of serious research and analysis..." >- Dr. Steven Greer, CSETI >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > >"The secrecy has two origins: us, and the entity we face." >- Whitley Strieber >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > >THE MAIN EVENT >Beginning May 9, at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C., Dr. Steven >Greer's long-held dream of bringing about public disclosure of the reality >of extraterrestrial visitors to earth will reach its zenith. On that day, >Greer - founder and international director of the non-profit Center for the >Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence (www.cseti.org) - will host a major >press conference featuring presentations by twenty-some "first-hand military >and government witnesses to UFO events." > >The following day, Greer has invited all members of the U.S. Congress to a >special closed-door VIP briefing, where these witnesses - all with >impressive military, intelligence, government, corporate or scientific >credentials - will relate "what they know and what they have personally seen >and witnessed" about UFOs, extraterrestrial visitation, and important >technology derived from the study of ET vehicles. > >This parade of witnesses represents but a fraction of the more than 400 >people Greer claims he has identified throughout the world who have been >witness to "UFO and extraterrestrial events, internal UFO-related government >projects and covert activities, space-based weapons programs, >extraterrestrial intelligence, and covert reverse-engineered energy and >propulsion system projects." In recent months, Greer has gathered videotaped >"unimpeachable" testimony from more than 100 of these high-level >whistle-blowers, but the rest are apparently reluctant to go on record until >they are granted Congressional immunity releasing them from security oaths. > >Simultaneously, Greer plans to release a four-hour videotape summary of the >witness testimony, plus a 500-page briefing document containing transcribed >excerpts of the larger body of recorded testimony. (A copy can be ordered at >www.disclosureproject.org for $25.) > >"We have simply run out of time to delay the truth any longer," Greer >recently told a cheering crowd of more than 1,000 people at the UFO Congress >in Laughlin, Nevada, as he announced the upcoming event (which he says is >being sponsored "by a long-standing member of the White House press corps"). > > >BOLD CONCLUSIONS >Just what will these high-level witnesses reveal to the world? According to >Greer's 57-page executive summary of the disclosure document to be released >this week, their testimony - along with supporting government documents and >other evidence - will establish "beyond any doubt the reality of >extraterrestrial life forms, UFOs or extraterrestrial vehicles," and will >prove that such vehicles have frequently been tracked on radar, have "landed >and/or crashed on terra firma," and have been subsequently retrieved and >studied by "specialized and compartmentalized projects." > >"These testimonies establish once and for all that we are not alone," says >Dr. Greer. What is more, he claims that technologies reverse-engineered from >downed ET craft "are capable of providing solutions to the global energy >crisis, and other environmental and security problems," and "will enable the >earth to attain a sustainable civilization without pollution, energy >shortages, or global warming." > >According to CSETI press announcements, the testimony and evidence presented >this week will unequivocally establish the following as fact: > > 1. The earth is indeed being visited by advanced extraterrestrial >civilizations. > > 2. Advanced spacecraft of extraterrestrial origin have been downed, >retrieved and studied since the 1940s, possibly earlier. > > 3. Study of these retrieved objects (along with "related human >innovations") has resulted in technological breakthroughs in energy >generation and propulsion that obviate the burning of fossil fuels and >ionizing radiation. > > 4. Classified above-top-secret projects - which have managed to >escape legal oversight and control - currently possess "fully operational >anti-gravity propulsion devices and new energy generation systems." > > 5. If these systems were declassified and put to peaceful use, they >would "empower a new human civilization without want, poverty or >environmental damage." > >In a passionate manifesto posted on Art Bell's website, CSETI declares: >"Given the vast and profound implications of these statements, whether one >accepts or seriously doubts these assertions, all must demand that >Congressional hearings be convened to get to the truth of this matter - for >nothing less than the human future hangs in the balance." > >AMBITIOUS GOALS >Greer's goals for his disclosure process are far from modest. First, he is >calling for witness immunity, which will likely require Congressional, U.N. >and White House action, along with an Executive Order from President Bush to >declassify relevant documents and secret projects "for the benefit of all >world citizens." > >This then will pave the way for open Congressional hearings, both about the >extraterrestrial presence and the ET-originated energy and propulsion >systems which Greer claims "will provide solutions to global environmental >challenges." > >Through these hearings, Greer urgently hopes to garner support for >legislation to ban space-based weapons and to prohibit acts of aggression >against extraterrestrial civilizations. With that accomplished, the world >can then begin to "research, develop and explore space peacefully and >cooperatively with all cultures on Earth and in Space." > >Finally, Greer hopes to stimulate the beginning of a vast diplomatic program >to prepare the world for contact with extraterrestrial civilizations (one of >the stated purposes of CSETI is to "train interplanetary ambassadors in >contact protocols"). "The world community needs to research and develop >diplomatic programs and protocols, laws and treaties to address this issue," >he says, "and to interface with these civilizations in a manner that is >peaceful, non-violent and mutually beneficial." > >A STRATEGY UNVEILED >With careful examination of CSETI's goals, a strategy begins to emerge. The >executive summary lays out the fundamental argument: "Advanced technologies >which have been identified from the study of these [ET] vehicles, once >disclosed, will replace currently used forms of energy generation and >propulsion." Greer claims that these technologies are already fully >operational. "I have seen them," he says glibly. "Anti-gravity is a reality, >and so is free energy generation," he continues. "This is not a fantasy or a >hoax... Every single person who is concerned about the environment and the >human future should call for urgent hearings to allow these technologies to >be disclosed, declassified and safely applied." > >When they are made accessible, says Greer, such technologies will not only >enable human civilization to achieve sustainability, but will also eliminate >all poverty on the planet. "Even the deserts will bloom," he says. And here >we can begin to glimpse the essence of his stark ambition: "In the near >term, we are talking about the greatest social, economic and technological >revolution in human history - bar none." This reveals the overarching cause >that Greer hopes to spearhead. A powerful charismatic speaker, formidably >articulate writer, and nimble strategist, Greer seems to be positioning >himself to play a pivotal role in what he sees as the salvation of the world >and in "diplomatic relations" between the human species and extraterrestrial >civilizations. > >In a speech on the campus of Arizona State University in Phoenix, April >2000, Greer complained that we humans have "neither the political will nor >the media acuity" to deal with the extraterrestrial issue and its >implications. The problem is "as complicated as hell," he said. From his >perspective, the powers that be could never take responsibility for >revealing the truth, as disclosure would "terminate the industrial >infrastructure of the world," sounding the death-knell for "markets driven >by fear and greed." > >In this presentation, Greer dramatically recounted the story of Col. Philip >Corso's alleged 1964 encounter with an ET in the deserts of White Sands, New >Mexico. [In The Day After Roswell, Corso claimed that he was responsible for >secretly delivering certain alien artifacts to unknowing corporate entities >to seed reverse-engineering research, which quickly led to such developments >as miniaturized semiconductors, lasers, and fiber optics.] "The Earth is >dying," said the visitor, warning of the coming collapse of the ecosphere >due to the abuses of our technologically-based civilization. To drive his >point home, Greer told his small but spellbound audience that the U.S. >Federal Reserve Board possessed information which demonstrated that only 20 >to 40 years remain until the irreversible onset of complete biosphere >collapse. > >For Greer, the necessary course had become clear: "Without disclosure, we >will terminate." He explained that the only viable solution was "unilateral >citizen disclosure," which he himself would lead, an effort that would >"totally alter the course of human history." > >In his 1999 essay, "When Disclosure Serves Secrecy," Greer laid out his >precise vision for the future, the very ambitious scenario he is now >attempting to implement: > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >"...The UFO and extraterrestrial subject is acknowledged >in a way which is scientific and hopeful. Excessive secrecy >which lacks executive branch and congressional oversight >is ended. Humanity begins to entertain open contact with >other civilizations, with peaceful engagement as the goal. >Technologies which are currently suppressed are allowed >to be disseminated: Pollution ends. An economy of >abundance and social justice is firmly established. Global >environmental destruction and mind-numbing world poverty >become a faint memory. Zero-point based energy devices >transform the world. Electro-gravitic devices permit above >ground travel without paving over the world's precious >fertile farm land. As an ET once told Colonel Philip Corso, >'It's a new world, if you can take it.' This is the disclosure >which we are working for." >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >The promise in this vision is powerfully seductive: An infusion of >ET-inspired technology will kindle a human renaissance and an accompanying >economic explosion of universal prosperity. Thus, the aim of Greer's >disclosure process is nothing less than to bring about utopia - all due to >the technological legacy of the extraterrestrials. And as a bonus, this will >end the domination of the world by the military-industrial complex - which >Greer repeatedly characterizes as perniciously evil and hopelessly corrupt. > >Oddly, in calling for widespread adoption of back-engineered ET technology, >Greer seems to be now abandoning one of the core principles that he laid >down in his treatise, Extraterrestrial Contact: The Evidence and >Implications*: "Until a permanent world peace and order can be achieved on >Earth, the acquisition of ET technology, which most likely would be used for >unilateral military application, should be avoided." Elsewhere he states >that the ETs "do not want a divided and war-prone civilization to acquire >their technology at this time since this would greatly endanger both ETI and >human civilizations." > >We are left to speculate as to why Greer has reversed his position on this >matter, as he offers no explanation. But clearly he has determined that the >benefits of ET technology are so urgently needed on this planet that such >cautions should be abandoned. This is perhaps an indication of the slippery >slope upon which Greer invites us to travel. > >*[In an outburst of unbridled hubris, urging his enthusiastic audience at >the recent UFO Congress to buy his book, Greer exclaimed, "If you get it, >you'll know everything you need to know, quite frankly."] > >THE UNDISCLOSED ISSUE >For all his posturing about the importance of revealing the truth and >disclosing withheld information, Greer's disclosure effort is troublingly >silent on one very important issue: the identity, nature, motivations, and >intentions of the extraterrestrials themselves. This is quite extraordinary, >given that the phenomena of UFOs and ET activity has been rising steadily >since the 1940s, and given that hundreds of researchers have been unable to >come to definitive conclusions about who the extraterrestrials are, why they >are involved in human affairs, and what they are actually doing, and that >the name of Greer's organization implies that this is precisely what he has >been investigating. > >To this writer, it appears that one of the hidden objectives of Greer's >CSETI disclosure effort may be to deflect investigation away from the >extraterrestrials themselves. They remain almost completely absent from his >disclosure documents. Rather than entertain questions or evidence about the >ETs, Greer is quick to deflect such discussion. He consistently responds to >any concern about ET motives or intentions with his standard scathing reply: >"There is no evidence that any of them are hostile. So therefore there is no >objective threat." > >While steadfastly maintaining that the current visiting ETs have only >benevolent intentions, Greer does however acknowledge "certain elusive or >enigmatic aspects of their behavior" - which presumably include the increase >of reported "alien abductions," animal mutilations, psychological influence >and possession documented by many researchers. However, he dismisses >concerns about these bizarre and often patently invasive behaviors as >paranoid and groundless. > >In a 1992 essay, titled "The Case for Non-Hostility," Greer wrote, "...we >must avoid the assumption of negative motives based on the reported actions >of ETI. Our perceptions of an action must not be confused with the actual >motives of the beings performing the actions, since it is quite possible >that frightening or negatively perceived actions are derived from genuinely >good motives." > >IGNORING THE QUESTIONS >While it is true that the intent behind behaviors can sometimes be >misinterpreted, Greer simply chooses to reject out of hand what is now a >very substantial body of evidence (offered by such researchers as John Mack, >David Jacobs, Budd Hopkins, John Carpenter, Bill Baldwin, along with many >others) strongly indicating that human encounters with extraterrestrial >encounters are in fact often traumatic, terrifying, painful, invasive, >manipulative, in violation of basic human freedoms, and possibly part of a >larger plan for global occupation - evidence which at the very least raises >profound questions about the ETs. > >Occasionally (and quite unconvincingly) Greer attempts to explain away these >seemingly unfriendly behaviors by claiming that the ETs have "security >considerations surrounding their advanced technology and planet of origin." >He maintains that testimony from his witness pool will show that the ETs are >"very concerned" about nuclear and space-based weapons systems, and human >warfare. In fact, Greer is now calling for a complete ban on all military >defenses against potential extraterrestrial attack solely on the basis of >his unsupportable and irrational claim that all extraterrestrial >civilizations who might visit the Earth are uniformly friendly, now and in >the future. > >Here, we may be justified in employing some healthy skepticism. In >Extraterrestrial Contact, Greer states unequivocally, "While these various >EBEs (extraterrestrial biological entities) may have values and priorities >which are different from those of some 20th century humans, their motives >and ultimate intentions are non-hostile and do not include the acquisition >or subjugation of the Earth or its peoples." This is a most extraordinary >and outrageous claim. What is particularly odd here is that Greer not only >does not offer any evidence to support it, but also implicitly demands that >we accept that he knows what he is talking about, that he has special >insider information. > >But what is the source of his information? Greer will not reveal his >sources, thus displaying the very kind of secrecy that he so loudly decries. >(Those who have been present as Greer alluded to his own apparent abduction >by extraterrestrials may have cause to wonder just what the ETs may have >communicated to him, or what level of influence they may be exerting on this >ambitious "ambassador.") > >Indeed, Greer adamantly maintains that "most abductions are staged, mobbed >up," "manufactured hoaxed events" perpetrated by humans, secret military or >black-ops organizations, or even "a subterranean fascist entity," all to >foment an environment of fear and suspicion about the ET visitors (to >justify defensive measures). Elsewhere he states, "Abductions, and the >'abduction syndrome' as it is commonly referred to, is largely a creation of >covert human disinformation projects." > >However, Greer ignores the possibility that these faux events may in fact be >controlled or inspired by the ETs themselves, utilizing some of the same >disinformation techniques he refers to. For instance, Greer says, "...human >initiated covert abductions not only serve as decoys in the UFO civilian >research community, but serve to avert serious inquiry from the 'mainstream' >scientific and media communities. It is a master stroke of disinformation, >which the civilian community has swallowed hook, line and sinker." > >But what if these "human initiated covert abductions" are actually staged by >extraterrestrials, with the appearance of being carried out by humans? Would >that not be a master stroke of disinformation on their part, serving to >obscure their real activities? > >OTHER VOICES >It now appears that in following his formidable ambitions - to be the person >responsible for the salvation of the Earth from ecological disaster, to >spearhead diplomatic relations between the Earth and the ETs, and to be a >major spiritual leader on the planet - Steven Greer has become the world's >leading apologist for clandestine extraterrestrial activity on and around >this planet. > >Ultimately, his work may be seen as a betrayal of humanity. Others are >beginning to suggest this very possibility. For instance, John G. Cunningham >writes, "Dr. Greer does not anywhere...talk about exercising caution. He >seems convinced that the 'aliens' are peaceful and that only good could come >from our contact with them. How can he be sure of this? It should be obvious >to anyone that you just cannot blindly trust a stranger to come into your >life and completely reorder it. So there are aliens in space and they make >promises of a utopia. We should welcome them with open arms and without any >check on their credibility. Let them dominate us and tell us how we should >order our lives. Throw down our defenses and let them have charge. Can >anyone blame me for wanting to be cautious?" >[hometown.aol.com/JCCunn/hoagland.html] > >Theoretical physicist Jack Sarfatti (a highly-respected proponent of "The >New Physics" and its relationship to consciousness, a self-described "rogue >scholar," and investigator of UFO propulsion systems) adds a wary note: >"Let's put a little balance and sanity into this. It would be as stupid to >assume that the ETs are all benevolent as to assume that they are all >malevolent. We have to be prepared for whatever comes either way. We have to >be fair, decent, noble, moral, responsible, and all those good things. Also >we have to be ready to kick alien ass and squash those Bugs, like in >Heinlein's 'Star Troopers,' if and only if they put us in harm's way. It's a >Big Universe Out There; we cannot assume that all ETs come from the same >culture with the same objectives." [www.rense.com/politics5/secrecy.htm] > >THE POLITICS OF NONDISCLOSURE >I predict that in all the hubbub over witness testimony, the supposed ending >of secrecy, and the possibility of earth-saving technology, there is one >issue that will not be adequately discussed: No one will testify to the >awesome secrecy that marks the presence and behavior of the extraterrestrial >visitors themselves. No one will admit that when Greer's so-called >disclosure process has run its course, the nature, identity, motivations, >intentions, and clandestine activities of the ETs will remain undisclosed. > >Neither will anyone be talking about the obvious fact that the ETs - either >with or without human assistance - have somehow managed to obscure and >obfuscate their presence and activities here. Theirs is an incredible >achievement, which may demonstrate a level of mastery in information >management, propaganda, and disinformation that far outstrips anything even >the most manipulative human organizations have ever been able to muster. > >What we need now is to move beyond what certain humans believe or want us to >believe about the ETs, and demand that the ETs themselves come forward to >disclose their intentions, their plans, and their activities here. This is >the disclosure that is most urgently needed. What Greer has offered us is a >nondisclosure event that is seemingly designed to further obscure the truth >about the extraterrestrial presence. > >Ironically, Greer himself has said, "Confusion and a lack of clarity serves >the larger covert goal of keeping it off the long-range radar of society >while power and plans are consolidated quietly. And the one thing more >dangerous to society than all this secrecy is a planned, contrived >disclosure run by the keepers of the secrets." > >Sadly, it seems that Dr. Greer is now orchestrating precisely the kind of >"disclosure" that he has warned us against. > >Copyright Đ 2001 Visibiliti Unlimited, LLC > >--- > > [Publisher and self-styled "journalist of the transformation of >human consciousness," Michael Brownlee is the author of Extraordinary >Intrusions: The Tim Cullen Story (Visibiliti Unlimited, May 2001), as well >as co-author and chief editor of Just In Case: Dispatches from the Front >Lines of the Y2K Crisis (Origin Press, 1999). He produces an online >magazine, "Awakening World" (www.visibiliti.com) and writes a regular >column, "Awakenings."] > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 09:48:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16886; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:45:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:45:01 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c0da2f$30895ac0$5b181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: , , , "TIM EDWARDS" Cc: "John Bradley ACEEE" , "John Bryan" , , Subject: Fw: Project Disclosure press event 5/9/01 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:29:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"TdNUg.0.h74.CS1_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42516 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: Dick Farley >National Affairs Correspondent >The American UFO Newsletter > >Wednesday, May 9, 2001 -- Washington, DC > >Re: Project Disclosure Press Conference -- First Take > >To those interested, from whatever perspectives: > >References: > & > >It is very important you and/or your associates take the time to view the >webcast of Greer's press conference this morning. It's archived on National >Press Club site, it was announced. I was there. (Actually I asked the last >questions, of Dan Sheehan and Steven Greer. Sheehan answered his but Greer >"didn't have time." Event over!) > >The event lasted two and a half hours; I do not know how much of it is >archived. It is supposed to remain on the NPC site for six months, but you >should watch it soon. I am told the Project Discovery (CSETI & Paradigm >Research Group) site has it too. > >The event was held in the ballroom (13th Floor) of the National Press Club >in >Washington (14th and F. Streets, NW). While the room is available for rental >by anyone, it costs less if rented through a Press Club member. According to >the manager of catering for the NPC, the Project Disclosure event was booked >by Ms. Sarah MacClendon, a now-90-ish veteran White House reporter who has >been a thorn in the sides of many Presidents who sought to keep the American >people in the dark about something Sarah believed we needed to know. This is >important to consideration of the Project Disclosure event. It was >well-connected, well-funded. > >There were references to Zero-Point Energy, anti-grav and other claims of >technical advances some on this list are working on. You'll be happy to know >you've already succeeded and that your technologies hold the keys to >"stopping global warming" and "ending the energy crisis," among other >benefits. Of course, the weaponization of space was a primary focus of the >organizers (they're against it). But the real stars were the retired >military >officers and FAA officials, who are agreeing to testify before a >Congressional committee if one can be prodded into holding open hearings on >it. > >One area of advance hype that did not happen were appearances via video tape >of former astronauts Edgar Mitchell and Gordon Cooper. No mention was made >of >this and there was no video tape shown. The 21 "in person" witnesses each >made a five-minute or less presentation, the majority of which were coherent >and persuasive. > >As I am not given to hyperbole, and whatever one thinks about Greer and his >gig, I do have to report that the event itself was professionally run and >very well received. There is material now "out there" for intelligent public >discussion of UFOs and ET,s and if there are some on this list concerned >about efforts to "start up a new religion" for the Technocratic Age, do >fasten your seat belts, because here it comes! Now! > >Greer referred (without attribution) to Arthur Clarke's characterization of >this time as "the end of humanity's childhood." I will leave it to you to >see >the event on the web. > >What Greer & Company have formed is something I have called in the past a >"nontraditional alliance," of former military folks who are decidedly >conservative patriots working alongside abject "liberals" like Daniel >Sheehan, who did legal work for the New York Times on the Pentagon Papers >case and later was involved in the Karen Silkwood case (about Kerr-McGee's >nuclear operations for DoE, in Texas, etc.). It is a fascinating mix and >again, well worth personal review & analysis by each of you. > >It had an impressive array of witness (21 present in the flesh), many with >solid and public credentials. For the first time, some "official" folks >having UFO sightings or knowledge are saying, in front of (a bank of 12-plus >TV cameras and "real" press) that they will testify before Congress. This is >one initiative the "Majestic-12" gang will find it impossible to ignore, and >with Rumsfeld-Bush space policies up for review, it will be along lines of >opening up "black budget" projects where Congress will dig. > >Again, regardless of one's perspective or bias about the "players," today's >event is singularly important because it's the best executed such initiative >we've ever had. I have my own views, of course, about some of what was said. >And no, I am NOT "drinking the Kool-Aid" (none was served). But rather than >burn up the Internet with chaff and hearsay, this one is worth you science >guys and others on-list tuning in. > >More later and I certainly will respond to questions and to clarify >"hearsay," etc. It is important that this effort not degenerate into simply >more disinformation and angry invective, personal attacks and accusations. >Kudos to Greer and Steve Bassett for a program well-conducted. As to "what >it >all means," what other motives or agendas are in play here, that will take >months to gauge. Some of the "usual suspects" were present, of course, from >the "Retail UFOlogy of Usual Kind" cadres, no doubt to find and amplify the >weakest links or wildest tales, to again try and derail the campaign. > >But it won't work this time around. As Greer noted, today's event is the >start of "a process" My sense is THIS disclosure initiative is getting >support from official, if not necessarily "political," levels in the >government and military, with an eye toward perhaps "cleaning up" bad >secrets >from the Cold War corroding public confidence. > >There no doubt are elements of the "Matrix of UFO Beliefs" this particular >group is not interested in addressing (at least publicly), such as "mind >control" allegations or "angelic/demonic" interpretations of alien >abductions, "hybridization" suspicions or the ultimate intentions of the >"visiting others." The mood expressed by principles of the organizing >entities (sorry, couldn't resist ;-) is decidedly "peaceful surrender" to >the >"aliens," as Greer's rationale (as he expressed it during the Q. & A. >period) >is that if "they" wanted to harm us they already would have, given our bad >treatment of them over the years. And Greer, Sheehan and others are, of >course, of the "belief" that disclosure of what they are certain is at the >heart of the UFO "cover-up" will be a planetary unification stimulus, which >Greer and obviously his backers clearly favor. > >But for the present, Steven and his allies are focusing on the "real >sightings" of an unexplained kind, letting the retired military and aviation >officials "break trail" on it. > >I'm waiting to gauge the media penetration, "spin" and any counterattacks >before I weigh in with analysis or "local color." But I am glad I went in >person, and I had an opportunity to interview a number of the witnesses >one-on-one, without intervention or spinning by the organizers. Let's see >how >the fallout and counterattacks by those who do not favor "UFO disclosure" or >"space demilitarization" takes shape. Later! > >If it's real, it has a politics. Once "disclosure" happens, the real debates >begin! > >Regards, > >Dick Farley >National Affairs Correspondent >The American UFO Newsletter >Washington, DC USA > >Copyright 2001 by C. Richard Farley, Jr. > >(Permission granted to reprint or repost this in its entirety, with no >editing or interspersed commentary, and not for commercial gain without >permission.) > >References: > > > > > >- - - - + > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 10:04:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA22765; Fri, 11 May 2001 10:03:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:03:17 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:03:21 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Jim Cox's "lifting machine" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"ifKVc3.0.dZ5.Lj1_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42517 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Jim made and demonstrated a "lifting" machine.... I think it uses >mechanical forcing of mass and makes a lot of noise, or one model did. > I did hear hee was trying to get it to go beyong 100 percents. What do you mean by go beyond 100%? Does that mean that if the machine weights 100 pounds and produces 95 pounds of lift that it is at 95%? > > > I will try to find details about where his demonstrations were, >but in Reno as I recall. > An honest guy, no magic involved, just the movement of masses by >gears and so on. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 10:30:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA32747; Fri, 11 May 2001 10:29:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:29:36 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001301c0da24$c8a1d220$81181ad8@oemcomputer> References: <001301c0da24$c8a1d220$81181ad8@oemcomputer> Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:29:49 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Wasting energy as a private and sacred ritual Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"Wg6jA2.0.W_7.062_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42518 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >The problem is the raising to $5/gal will bankrupt the US as our whole >economy is based on cheap energy. We will go to war to ensure cheap oil and >that will perk th eeconomy. That is probably what will happen. > >I disagree, $5 gas would give the wasteful bastards the equivelant >of a swift kick in the ass and motivate them to A conserve and B >develop domestic sources of energy. Within 3 years you would see a >slump in prices just like what happened last time. Money that we >spend on importing fuel is sucking the life blood out of the >economy, OTOH conservation and domestic production put Americans to >work and grows the ecomony. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 13:56:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10193; Fri, 11 May 2001 13:55:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:55:38 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010511155401.0292c728@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 16:55:29 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502174022.02900de8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010426174338.02814530@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"-Jhnp2.0.BV2.A75_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42519 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > >That's wrong, according to the ANS and every other source I know of. > >***{This is not a matter of someone's opinion: it is a matter of >straightforward calculation. Therefore, let me expand on that calculation, >in order to make it easier for you to follow, and, thus, to criticize, if >you can: I don't need to criticize it. All industry sources show that it is wrong by many orders of magnitude. Terry Blanton cited a DoE document quoting 40 GWDt/MTU (gigawatt-days thermal per metric ton of uranium). That works out closer to my figure than yours. I have > >a sample fake uranium fuel pellet from the ANS. The package says it has as > >much energy as 3 barrels of oil (126 gallons) or 1 ton of coal (2,000 > >lbs.). I cannot find the precise mass of the fuel pellet, but my ruler > >shows the size is 1.5 cm x 0.8 cm, which comes to 0.75 cm^3. U fuel weighs > >10.2 grams per cubic cm, so that's 7.7 grams, or 0.017 lbs. In other words, > >the ratio is 1:117,647. > >***{That is ridiculous. A fake fuel pellet obviously contains far less >uranium than a real fuel pellet. If it contained as much, it would be real, >not fake. This is a misunderstanding. The fake pellet is made of plastic. It is in a cardboard package with information about the industry. I used it to estimate the volume of a pellet, and from that I derived the mass. The density of 10.2 grams per cubic cm is from a textbook on nuclear fuel. >Like it or not, you are going to >have to find an error in that calculation, or your entire position will be >rendered untenable by it. Like it or not YOU will have to find an error the DoE's calculation, or YOUR entire position will be rendered untenable by it. You are arguing with the DoE and American Nuclear Society, not with me. Also, the comment about coal miners dying "like flies" is ridiculous. This is not 1901. People do not go into holes underground to mine coal in the U.S. They strip mine it, and the overall safety of the industry is good, if you do not count the people they kill by burning the coal. Coal does take more workers per megawatt hour compared to uranium, but the difference is not that dramatic. You have to mine 1,000 times more mass of coal than uranium. (You get 100,000 times more energy out of U, but the U ore density is usually ~1%, whereas coal is close to 100% C.) U.S. surface mining (strip mining) productivity is ~50,000 tons per worker per year. The best uranium mine produced 32,000 lbs of uranium-oxide per year per worker (16 tons), and most are down around 10,000 lbs (5 tons). I think those are pounds of refined uranium, not ore, so the energy advantage goes back up, and those 16 tons are roughly equivalent to 1.6 million tons of coal, an advantage of 32:1 for uranium in the mining phase. I have no idea how many people it takes to to refine, process, prepare and test the fuel rods, but that processing drives the cost up by a factor of 100, so it may take many people. See: http://www.norwestmines.com/measres.html http://www.uilondon.org/sym/1997/fig-htm/catf3-h.htm Mind you, despite the cost and risk of uranium, I would rather live next door to a nuclear plant than a coal plant. But unlike Jones I do not invent wildly incorrect statistics to justify this preference. In any case, Jones betrays his own political ideology by supporting nuclear power. As the Cato Institute points out, the nuclear industry would vanish were it not for government backing, especially limitation to liability in the Price Anderson Act. See: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa036.html Quotes: "As Richard Holwill of the Heritage Foundation writes, the Reagan administration 'gives the appearance of being for a free market in all things conventional, but virtually socialist on nuclear power.' These subsidies do not necessarily establish the nonviability of the nuclear power industry, in that it is conceivable that these functions could be taken over by private industry. However, the one government-furnished privilege that the nuclear industry could find it hardest to live without is the Price-Anderson Act's limitation on a nuclear power plant's liability in case of an accident. . . ." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 14:32:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21093; Fri, 11 May 2001 14:31:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:31:53 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c0da59$35adc8e0$d5b4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: CNN.com - Greater electricity demand could fuel Appalachian coal boom - May 11, Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:30:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0DA2F.3F0E6540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"XIx8T3.0.V95.9f5_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42520 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0DA2F.3F0E6540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "You load 16 tons, and waddya get?" Dick Cheney's Wyoming Coal Interests? http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/05/11/miningupsurge.ap/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0DA2F.3F0E6540 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - Greater electricity demand could fuel Appalachian coal boom - May 11, 2001.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - Greater electricity demand could fuel Appalachian coal boom - May 11, 2001.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/05/11/miningupsurge.ap/index.html [DOC#35] BASEURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html ORIGURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/05/11/miningupsurge.ap/index.html Modified=808B823257DAC001B1 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0DA2F.3F0E6540-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 14:46:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25815; Fri, 11 May 2001 14:46:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 14:46:07 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:52:24 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: thomas malloy cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jim Cox's "lifting machine" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vSiLH3.0.9J6.Ts5_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42521 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: My understanding is the lifter is at about 40 to 50 percents of its weight. At 50 percents this means if it weighs 100 pounds and is then turned on the scale will read 50 pounds. To lift itself AND something, it would have to operate at 100 percents plus some figure. On Fri, 11 May 2001, thomas malloy wrote: > > Jim made and demonstrated a "lifting" machine.... I think it uses > >mechanical forcing of mass and makes a lot of noise, or one model did. > > I did hear hee was trying to get it to go beyong 100 percents. > > > What do you mean by go beyond 100%? Does that mean that if the > machine weights 100 pounds and produces 95 pounds of lift that it is > at 95%? > > > > > > > I will try to find details about where his demonstrations were, > >but in Reno as I recall. > > An honest guy, no magic involved, just the movement of masses by > >gears and so on. > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 15:33:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07603; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:30:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:30:36 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 08:30:25 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000801c0da28$e8028480$81181ad8@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <000801c0da28$e8028480$81181ad8@oemcomputer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA07547 Resent-Message-ID: <"Vx5lb3.0.Ps1.AW6_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42522 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Fri, 11 May 2001 07:44:36 -0700: >Consider a photovoltaic pannel whcih which produces 50 watts with 3 sq ft , >now if nutrinos have 100 times the energy as light hittting the earth and But they don't. If the majority of neutrinos are produced by stars during the fusion process, then they only contain about 1/30 the energy of sunlight. Therefore, one is better off collecting sunlight with solar cells. There is however the possibility that there are also neutrinos left over from the big bang (if such ever existed), though a rough calculation implies that the energy density of these would be less than that of the solar neutrinos. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 15:55:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA15369; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:55:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:55:13 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010511155401.0292c728@pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502174022.02900de8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010426174338.02814530@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:53:44 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Resent-Message-ID: <"DrE0H2.0.1m3.Gt6_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42523 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >That's wrong, according to the ANS and every other source I know of. >> >>***{This is not a matter of someone's opinion: it is a matter of >>straightforward calculation. Therefore, let me expand on that calculation, >>in order to make it easier for you to follow, and, thus, to criticize, if >>you can: > >I don't need to criticize it. All industry sources show that it is wrong by >many orders of magnitude. Terry Blanton cited a DoE document quoting 40 >GWDt/MTU (gigawatt-days thermal per metric ton of uranium). That works out >closer to my figure than yours. ***{Let's see: that's 10^9 joules/sec times the number of seconds in 40 days--i.e., (10^9)[(40)(24)(3600)] = 3.46x10^15 joules. Since a metric ton of uranium is 1000 kg or 2200 lbs, that is 3.46x10^15/2200 = 1.57x10^12 joules/lb. Since 1 joule is 9.482x10^-4 BTU's, we obtain (1.57x10^12)(9.482x10^-4) = 1.49x10^9 BTU's/lb. And the figure I calculated earlier was--are you ready?--2.24x10^8 BTU's/lb! That means the DOE number is almost an order of magnitude higher than my own figure! Therefore, since you worship the almighty government, you will be impressed by their implied ratio between the energy in a pound of uranium and the energy in a pound of coal--to wit: 1.49x10^9/14.6 = 1.02x10^8, or 102 million to 1! Duh! --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] >- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 16:32:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA24630; Fri, 11 May 2001 16:32:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 16:32:28 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 16:14:20 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: jonesb9@pacbell.net Message-id: <0GD700BHW1WHA1@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Opera 5.11 build 904 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Resent-Message-ID: <"XHE9_.0.e06.BQ7_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42524 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > In other words, the ratio is 1:117,647. Yes and no. If you are referring to the absolute energy density of uranium compared to carbon, the ratio which for at least 35 years has appeared in physics textbooks (the one I'm looking at was first published in 1965) is 2.5 million to one, i.e. the fission of uranium releases 2.5 million times as much thermal energy as carbon combustion, pound for pound. However, there are many other factors which can drastically change this general fact when comparing the two as actual fuels in power plants. The fissile component of natural uranium is only .72%, and basically only the fissile (plus the fertile fuel that is converted to fissile in situ) will burn in a reactor. Some reactors like the CANDU, can use natural U, but for the PWR and BWR usually the fuel is enriched up to 1.5 % or so, but that doesn't change the fact that only a small burnup of the original uranium will actually occur (in the USA). This usually works out to around 5% without reprocessing, which we don't allow here but is done in France, Japan and elsewhere. So your ratio is 1:117,647 is generally correct for a typical US reactor, and would be off by a factor of ~20 for a breeder reactor with a near 100% burnup, which will likely never exist in the US, thanks to our abandonment of the Clinch River Breeder reactor project. Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 16:53:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA31670; Fri, 11 May 2001 16:52:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 16:52:33 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:58:47 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Robin van Spaandonk cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Sanity Amplify :Clean In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mi6Ik.0.mk7.0j7_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42525 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Robin, Thank you for the sanity. I was struggling how to put the neutrino to its home. Not toss it... just place it with peers. Again, Thank you On Sat, 12 May 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Fri, 11 May 2001 07:44:36 -0700: > > >Consider a photovoltaic pannel whcih which produces 50 watts with 3 sq ft , > >now if nutrinos have 100 times the energy as light hittting the earth and > > But they don't. If the majority of neutrinos are produced by stars > during the fusion process, then they only contain about 1/30 the energy > of sunlight. Therefore, one is better off collecting sunlight with solar > cells. > There is however the possibility that there are also neutrinos left over > from the big bang (if such ever existed), though a rough calculation > implies that the energy density of these would be less than that of the > solar neutrinos. > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 18:09:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA20836; Fri, 11 May 2001 18:08:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 18:08:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3AFC8C75.8C7DCC21@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 18:05:57 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for May 11, 2001] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DOSN02.0.S55.Lq8_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42526 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for May 11, 2001 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:12:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "What's New" To: aki@ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 11 May 01 Washington, DC 1. WEEKLY DISASTER REPORT: THE FAITH-BASED MISSILE DEFENSE. Last week, you will recall, President Bush called for a global missile shield, including space-based elements, but he was pretty short on specifics(WN 4 May 01). This week, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld called a press conference to talk about military uses of space. Many of us expected he would fill in some of the missing details from the President's speech. He didn't. Rumsfeld devoutly believes that an effective missile defense is out there somewhere, but neither he nor the President seems to have any idea of what the shield would involve or any evidence that such a thing is even feasible, much less what it would cost, when it might be deployed or whether it even has to work. Rumsfeld wanted to talk about the management and organization of a new national-security space initiative; it would be given the task of filling in the missing details. Not a bad strategy -- opponents of a missile shield are left with nothing specific to attack. 2. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: WHITE HOUSE COMMISSION HOLDS MEETING. Included among the political favors that were granted in the waning months of the Clinton administration, was the naming of a White House Commission on Complementary and Alternative Medicine Policy, with mind-body guru James Gordon as chair (WN 4 Aug 00). Congress, meanwhile, increased funding for CAM research to $70M, and even our most respected institutions leaped into research on CAM. Next week, the Commission holds a meeting in Washington. The program will rely heavily on the usual alternative medicine establishment. However, WN has heard that a few skeptics, such as Marcia Angell and Arthur Grollman of SUNY at Stony Brook, may have gotten on some of the panels. 3. UFOS: IT TAKES A LOT OF ENERGY TO GET HERE FROM ANDROMEDA. The news in Washington is not always depressing. This week, for example, Project Disclosure held a press conference at the National Press Club to expose the government's cover-up of the truth about UFOs. This could have important benefits; Steven Greer, director of the project, explained that aliens have a source of energy that could supply our energy needs, save the environment and lead to world peace. (A lot of humans make the same claim.) What wasn't explained is why aliens travel this far just to grope the genitals of Iowa farmers, or steal socks from the dryer. The "hard evidence" that was promised turned out to be things like a pencil drawing on cardboard of an alien spacecraft. Some 20 retired government and military were witnesses at the press conference, and dozens of other expert witnesses are listed in Project Disclosure's web site, http://www.disclosureproject.org . Alas, actual names are not always used, perhaps to shield these brave souls from government harassment, but it's pretty thin cover. "Dr. KKK," for example, is described as "the editor of Infinite Energy." THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 18:10:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA21121; Fri, 11 May 2001 18:09:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 18:09:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3AFC8CE3.58690B6E@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 18:07:47 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for May 11, 2001] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QmHmR.0.x95.Vr8_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42527 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for May 11, 2001 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:12:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "What's New" To: aki@ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 11 May 01 Washington, DC 1. WEEKLY DISASTER REPORT: THE FAITH-BASED MISSILE DEFENSE. Last week, you will recall, President Bush called for a global missile shield, including space-based elements, but he was pretty short on specifics(WN 4 May 01). This week, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld called a press conference to talk about military uses of space. Many of us expected he would fill in some of the missing details from the President's speech. He didn't. Rumsfeld devoutly believes that an effective missile defense is out there somewhere, but neither he nor the President seems to have any idea of what the shield would involve or any evidence that such a thing is even feasible, much less what it would cost, when it might be deployed or whether it even has to work. Rumsfeld wanted to talk about the management and organization of a new national-security space initiative; it would be given the task of filling in the missing details. Not a bad strategy -- opponents of a missile shield are left with nothing specific to attack. 2. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: WHITE HOUSE COMMISSION HOLDS MEETING. Included among the political favors that were granted in the waning months of the Clinton administration, was the naming of a White House Commission on Complementary and Alternative Medicine Policy, with mind-body guru James Gordon as chair (WN 4 Aug 00). Congress, meanwhile, increased funding for CAM research to $70M, and even our most respected institutions leaped into research on CAM. Next week, the Commission holds a meeting in Washington. The program will rely heavily on the usual alternative medicine establishment. However, WN has heard that a few skeptics, such as Marcia Angell and Arthur Grollman of SUNY at Stony Brook, may have gotten on some of the panels. 3. UFOS: IT TAKES A LOT OF ENERGY TO GET HERE FROM ANDROMEDA. The news in Washington is not always depressing. This week, for example, Project Disclosure held a press conference at the National Press Club to expose the government's cover-up of the truth about UFOs. This could have important benefits; Steven Greer, director of the project, explained that aliens have a source of energy that could supply our energy needs, save the environment and lead to world peace. (A lot of humans make the same claim.) What wasn't explained is why aliens travel this far just to grope the genitals of Iowa farmers, or steal socks from the dryer. The "hard evidence" that was promised turned out to be things like a pencil drawing on cardboard of an alien spacecraft. Some 20 retired government and military were witnesses at the press conference, and dozens of other expert witnesses are listed in Project Disclosure's web site, http://www.disclosureproject.org . Alas, actual names are not always used, perhaps to shield these brave souls from government harassment, but it's pretty thin cover. "Dr. KKK," for example, is described as "the editor of Infinite Energy." THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 19:27:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA08370; Fri, 11 May 2001 19:26:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:26:25 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010511203733.00c22700@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:28:11 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies In-Reply-To: <000801c0da28$e8028480$81181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Pu71P2.0.c22.Hz9_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42528 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To prevent misunderstanding. > >> Amplification does not relate to matter, only energy. It takes MORE energy > >> to amplify energy , not less, and you may create a resonance tuned to the > >> atom , but then you create a Laser, because eventually the Amplified > energy > >> will have to go somewhere. Resonance does not create energy it accumulates energy. The mechanism of discharge is always non resonant and wasteful. > >> A capacitor stores electrical energy, but then releases it, and the > rate and > >> amount of release determines the capacitance. The capacitor only stores the energy. Release is external. The amount of energy it can store is dependant on the voltage at which you store the energy. The capacity "Capacitance" is dependant on how much energy is stored at a given voltage. The amount of energy that can be released is the same as the amount that is stored. > >> A Resistor prevents energy from traveling along a path, A resister allows this travel while converting some of the energy to heat. > >> And an amplifier takes a small input and creates a larger output. It is > >> nothing more than a flow controller, and it by itself cannot do anything > >> like you describe. The resister is a flow control. An amplifier is an active device that uses external energy to increase the energy of a given input Weather it be mechanical as with an automotive power steering system or electrical as with a radio receiver. > >>>> A Coil takes a very low voltage with a high current and turns it > into a very > >> high voltage with a low current. That would be a transformer. A coil uses magnetic fields to provide an exaggeration of an inertia like effect of electrical current flow called inductance. It may also be used to radiate or collect magnetic signal energy. > >> Conservation of energy still takes place. You cannot get something for > >> nothing. In fact the law of the universe is you get nothing or less than > >> something for something. Eh hm... You cannot get less.. All remains the same. If you waist energy in an electrical circuit you get heat and electromagnetic radiation. These will total up to the loss. > >> We can store energy, we can convert it, but if you have a low amount of > >> energy, to convert it to a higher amount requires NO loss in manufacture, > >> and as of the creation of the universe, its never been done. If you start with a low amount of energy you might change the form or parameters but you end up with a low amount of energy. To "manufacture" energy requires some sort of fuel > >> Some one invented a diode once. It has the action of only allowing > energy to > >> flow in one direction. However, it needs energy to activate, and therefore > >> reduces the energy you flow past it. Some one connected 2 diodes > together in > >> a certain fashion, and therefore created a transistor, worsened the > problem. > >> It adds noise to the formula. A transistor is not two diodes. It is in fact a single diode. The trans -resistive property of a diode is exploited by connecting external conductors to two locations on one end of the same diode. This allows us to control a large amount of current with a small amount of current. The Mecca to technology that we live in today is based on this property of a diode. > >> Matter can be moved and molded and changed all with a cost of energy to do > >> so. Matter can store energy in its electrical field, and its inertia, > and it > >> can release energy when you break it down, but you cannot create > matter from > >> energy. The entire amount of matter created from the untold hours of > >> particle collisions around the world in all the colliding equipment ever > >> made could fit between this --> <-- and weigh about a gram. > >> > >> Considering all the Energy used to make that much matter, that should more > >> than prove to you that there is no free lunch. > >> > >> Matthew Rogers > >> Prove it.. > >> Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 19:52:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA13225; Fri, 11 May 2001 19:51:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:51:20 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010511213154.00c89b00@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:52:41 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Greater electricity demand, Waisting energy is an american ritual?. Electric cars that people won't buy! and finally dirty stinking coal smoke in my eyes. In-Reply-To: <000601c0da59$35adc8e0$d5b4bfa8@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"-Xpy7.0.XE3.dKA_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42529 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Folks: This is getting ridiculous. I am sure that we all agree that wasting the stuff is a bad practice. The thing to do is place pressure on the source of the waste. That is to pressure ourselves. Every minuet of every day you choose to use energy and waste energy. You choose not to replace that incandescent with something more efficient. You choose to leave the bathroom light on all night. You choose to stand in the refrigerator door deciding what you want to eat. You choose 78F rather then 82F on your AC thermostat. The list goes on and on. I am guilty also. When I stand in the electrical department at Home Depot I choose to purchase a light bulb that uses a primitive process to provide a small amount of light at a cost of about 100W of heat A process that is less then 2% efficient. I choose to light the entire garage rather then my workspace. What we probably should be discussion is how to change these bad habits. Further discussion might include how to provide the energy directly to the need at as close to 100% efficiency as possible. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 11 20:02:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA14967; Fri, 11 May 2001 20:01:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:01:27 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010511155401.0292c728@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010502174022.02900de8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010426174338.02814530@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:59:07 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Resent-Message-ID: <"jucef2.0.lf3.7UA_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42530 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >>> >That's wrong, according to the ANS and every other source I know of. >>> >>>***{This is not a matter of someone's opinion: it is a matter of >>>straightforward calculation. Therefore, let me expand on that calculation, >>>in order to make it easier for you to follow, and, thus, to criticize, if >>>you can: >> >>I don't need to criticize it. All industry sources show that it is wrong by >>many orders of magnitude. Terry Blanton cited a DoE document quoting 40 >>GWDt/MTU (gigawatt-days thermal per metric ton of uranium). That works out >>closer to my figure than yours. > >***{Let's see: that's 10^9 joules/sec times the number of seconds in 40 >days--i.e., (10^9)[(40)(24)(3600)] = 3.46x10^15 joules. Since a metric ton >of uranium is 1000 kg or 2200 lbs, that is 3.46x10^15/2200 = 1.57x10^12 >joules/lb. Since 1 joule is 9.482x10^-4 BTU's, we obtain >(1.57x10^12)(9.482x10^-4) = 1.49x10^9 BTU's/lb. > >And the figure I calculated earlier was--are you ready?--2.24x10^8 BTU's/lb! > >That means the DOE number is almost an order of magnitude higher than my >own figure! Therefore, since you worship the almighty government, you will >be impressed by their implied ratio between the energy in a pound of >uranium and the energy in a pound of coal--to wit: 1.49x10^9/14.6 = >1.02x10^8, or 102 million to 1! > >Duh! ***{After reading Jones Beene's post, I looked up the heat of combustion of coal again in the only source I have, which is the 40th edition *Handbook*, and verified the figure I have been using: 14.610 BTU's/lb, which I rounded to 14.6. However, the thing is 42 years old, the print is small and faded, and my visual acuity isn't what it used to be, so on impulse I picked up a magnifying glass and took a closer look. Result: what I took to be a period is, in fact, a comma. Thus the true number of BTU's/lb is, in fact, 14,610. Thus the true multiple, based on the DOE figure for the heat content of uranium, is 102,000 to 1, not 102 million to 1. It would appear, therefore, that my original number was too high by a factor of roughly 15x10^6/102000 = 147, not due to a miscalculation, but due to faded numbers in a table. The question, therefore, is this: does the new number still support the conclusion that nuclear power is vastly safer than any of the alternatives, or not? In other words, is the likelihood that roughly 102,000 times as many workers are exposed to accidents, when coal fired power plants are used, sufficient to support the conclusion that U-235 fired nuclear furnaces are vastly safer, per megawatt produced, than coal fired furnaces, or not? I say it does. And, of course, since a breeder program would use the U-238 to produce Pu-239, thereby turning *all* of the uranium into nuclear fuel, and since the percentage abundance of U-238 in uranite is 139 times as great as that of U-235, the multiple for a breeder program the goes back up to about 15 million to 1 again--i.e., when Pu-239 fired nuclear furnaces are used. By the way, Jed, you may consider the "Duh!" retracted, though without apology. (You have said far worse to me, with less justification.) --Mitchell Jones}*** > >--Mitchell Jones}*** > >[snip] > >>- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 12 04:38:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA32235; Sat, 12 May 2001 04:36:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 04:36:34 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c0dacf$2a7e9c80$9b8f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Modified Pressure Cooker, Stovetop Power Generator Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 05:34:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0DAA5.31522560" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"mEVPk2.0.bt7.21I_w"@mx1> Resent-From: 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KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKjcF2AC42kHcf6VJRVcwEyZJGN+7Pf6VY oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooqJJcwGVhgckfShWmbblFQ dznNS00ODIUA5AyTSeYoDEnAU4NNMuWCxjcx/SlkmWMgEMSfQUoZyeUAHueafVZpXMjgHYiDJOMk 1NGxMKtJwcZNNRnkIYfKnYY5NS0UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUVFcM dgRT8z/KP608qoj27cqBjFR25OwghgoPy7uuKmqrHLl5NnMjNjHoBxzUjxMEQJyVbccnrTRHKjBl 2sxBDZOOc5p8iOyoOCQwLVLSE4BPpVWKOWQkyrtVm3EZ5PoKk2SSxOJMKWPA64FOxMRgsi/QZp2G 83OfkA6epp9FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFJgZBxyKWiiiojOPNCAEj OC3bNSMwUZY4FDMFUsc8egqLzmLBViOT03HFPXzM/NtA9BT6KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKZMzLExUc44qONQ20KpCJyCR940+VC6jacMpBGaTEjsu4BQpzwc5 pdp+0BscBcZ/GnqSVBYYPpS0UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUV//Z ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0DAA5.31522560-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 12 11:30:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26709; Sat, 12 May 2001 11:29:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 11:29:39 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0db06$fba2a180$84181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 09:13:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"a3wRT1.0.9X6.J4O_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42532 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No; You are just using theory; There is much more energy available from experimental devices. Maybe some form of gamma ray is also involved. What part of australia are you from? Are you close to Carins? thanks Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, May 11, 2001 3:34 PM Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies >In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Fri, 11 May 2001 07:44:36 -0700: > >>Consider a photovoltaic pannel whcih which produces 50 watts with 3 sq ft , >>now if nutrinos have 100 times the energy as light hittting the earth and > >But they don't. If the majority of neutrinos are produced by stars >during the fusion process, then they only contain about 1/30 the energy >of sunlight. Therefore, one is better off collecting sunlight with solar >cells. >There is however the possibility that there are also neutrinos left over >from the big bang (if such ever existed), though a rough calculation >implies that the energy density of these would be less than that of the >solar neutrinos. >[snip] > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 12 12:30:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA10949; Sat, 12 May 2001 12:29:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 12:29:30 -0700 Message-ID: <002a01c0db0f$57a99da0$49181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: , "Robin van Spaandonk" Cc: Subject: Re: Sanity Amplify :Clean Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 11:14:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"NHU_R.0.-g2.PyO_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42533 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Again you are just presenting theory and there may be other energy particles that can be accessed. Half of a Waffle Iron size produces 1200 watts. Bruce Meland www.electrifyingtimes.com -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer To: Robin van Spaandonk Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, May 11, 2001 4:53 PM Subject: Sanity Amplify :Clean > > > Dear Robin, > > Thank you for the sanity. > > I was struggling how to put the neutrino to its home. Not toss >it... just place it with peers. > > Again, > > Thank you > > > >On Sat, 12 May 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Fri, 11 May 2001 07:44:36 -0700: >> >> >Consider a photovoltaic pannel whcih which produces 50 watts with 3 sq ft , >> >now if nutrinos have 100 times the energy as light hittting the earth and >> >> But they don't. If the majority of neutrinos are produced by stars >> during the fusion process, then they only contain about 1/30 the energy >> of sunlight. Therefore, one is better off collecting sunlight with solar >> cells. >> There is however the possibility that there are also neutrinos left over >> from the big bang (if such ever existed), though a rough calculation >> implies that the energy density of these would be less than that of the >> solar neutrinos. >> [snip] >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> >> A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 13 09:22:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA32308; Sun, 13 May 2001 09:20:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 09:20:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3AFEB4A0.13C3B1A@austininstruments.com> Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 11:21:52 -0500 From: John Fields Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: jlsparber@earthlink.net, GESREBSPAR@aol.com Subject: Re: Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <006201c0ca76$820cc300$c9b4bfa8@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6CQoq3.0.gu7.0Hh_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42534 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Recently, astronomers have discovered that expansion of the Universe is increasing. > > The speed of light is given as c = 1/(uo*eo)^1/2 where uo is 4(pi)x10^-7 henry/ meter > and eo = 8.85x10^-12 farad/meter. > > Since expansion of the Universe makes Space more tenuous, permeability uo and > permittivity eo decrease and c becomes greater. > > Thus, since E = mc^2 , m = E/c^2 so an increase in c dictates that mass m Must > Decrease, thus conserving > Energy and Momentum. > > You can quote me on this. :-) > > Regards, Frederick --- Sounds good to me! Since Cerenkov radiation is a result of FTL travel, it seems that superluminal velocities of propagation are not ruled out, but depend on the electrical properties of the material through which the radiation propagates. Thus, if we were to completely remove all mass from some volume of local space, c would be limited to 3.0*10E9m/s because space itself isn't empty and presents an impedance which will limit c. If space itself becomes more tenuous as we approach the horizon of our universe, the velocity of mass will increase, as will c, because of the attraction caused by the (infinite?) void on the other side of the horizon. If this is true, then it's like we're surrounded by an inverted black hole into which mass and radiation from our universe is being drawn. The horizon of the universe, then, would be that point beyond which we could not detect mass or energy because they were being "swallowed up" by the void. This would certainly explain where the missing mass is, as well as why the universe is expanding at an increasing rate the farther out we go. --- John Fields From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 13 12:38:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24520; Sun, 13 May 2001 12:35:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:35:09 -0700 Message-ID: <003401c0dbdb$30bbaae0$a7b4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: <006201c0ca76$820cc300$c9b4bfa8@computer> <3AFEB4A0.13C3B1A@austininstruments.com> Subject: Re: Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:32:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"sCtKS1.0.0_5.i7k_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42535 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Fields wrote: > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > Recently, astronomers have discovered that expansion of the Universe is increasing. > > > > The speed of light is given as c = 1/(uo*eo)^1/2 where uo is 4(pi)x10^-7 henry/ meter > > and eo = 8.85x10^-12 farad/meter. > > > > Since expansion of the Universe makes Space more tenuous, permeability uo and > > permittivity eo decrease and c becomes greater. > > > > Thus, since E = mc^2 , m = E/c^2 so an increase in c dictates that mass m Must > > Decrease, thus conserving > > Energy and Momentum. > > > > You can quote me on this. :-) > > > > Regards, Frederick > --- > Sounds good to me! > > Since Cerenkov radiation is a result of FTL travel, it seems that > superluminal velocities of propagation are not ruled out, but depend on > the electrical properties of the material through which the radiation > propagates. Yes, but, if you consider that the gravitational field surrounding matter creates the "aether" ie., sets up uo and eo as borne out by the Gravitational Red Shift where light travels at a lower velocity: c' = c initial[1+ (phi/c^2)] where phi = -GM/R Where G is the gravitaional constant of "our world" 6.67x10^-11 M is the mass and R is the separation radius. phi/c^2 is 3000 times greater on our Sun than on the Earth. The Mossbauer Effect was used to measure the change in lightspeed over a vertical path of 20 meters at the Earth's surface and detected a change in lightspeed of 2 parts in 10^15. IOW gravitational fields create an "Aether Gradient" or a uo and eo gadient that determines lightspeed. If one could model that gradient between stars or galaxys you might find a significant "anistropicity" of the EM gravity field and thus highly variable lighspeed and possibly a few "Wormholes" ie., gravity field vortices. :-) If you mean Superluminal wrt to "our World" lightspeed, that is acceptable but you Cannot Exceed the local lightspeed, because mass experinces a Drag that approaches Infinity as you approach "Local c". Kind of like a submarine trying to approch the speed of sound in seawater. Tends to flatten it out in the direction of motion too. :-) > Thus, if we were to completely remove all mass from some > volume of local space, c would be limited to 3.0*10E9m/s because space > itself isn't empty and presents an impedance which will limit c. I disaggree with the 3.0*10E9m/s value, John. If there is a supermass at the center of our Universe "bubble" it's Gravity Field Gradient extends out to some point occupied by mass, and beyond. For all we know the lightspeed at a halfway point between our Galaxy and Andromeda is 100x local c. > > If space itself becomes more tenuous as we approach the horizon of our > universe, the velocity of mass will increase, as will c, because of the > attraction caused by the (infinite?) void on the other side of the > horizon. If this is true, then it's like we're surrounded by an > inverted black hole into which mass and radiation from our universe is > being drawn. The horizon of the universe, then, would be that point > beyond which we could not detect mass or energy because they were being > "swallowed up" by the void. We don't need an "inverted black hole" , out there, just a lower gravity field/Aether Value. However, when uo and eo drop to zero light will no longer have an Aether to travel in and it will be reflected back into our Universe according to Snell's Law of total internal reflection. > > This would certainly explain where the missing mass is, as well as why > the universe is expanding at an increasing rate the farther out we go. Okay by me. Regards, Frederick > > --- > John Fields > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 13 13:23:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04554; Sun, 13 May 2001 13:22:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:22:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3AFEEBAE.22AB49E8@enter.net> Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 16:16:46 -0400 From: David Rosignoli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Schnurer CC: thomas malloy , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jim Cox's "lifting machine" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"h7Jq33.0.471.Nqk_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42536 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I saw Jim's experiment at the 2000 Antigravity conference that he put on in Reno, NV. Check out http://www.padrak.com/agn/ He had a mechanical device that moved up and down. He placed it on a scale. When the machine was turned on, the scale indicated a weight loss (40%?). I don't remember what the exact weight loss was. But this experiment and several others are on his video of the first Antigravity Conference (held in 1999 at Reno, NV). He clearly has spent a lot of time on it, and seems to know a great deal on it. However, I don't think a scale test is conclusive. A better test would be to hang it on a pendulum or a balance. Oh, but he said that his device only works in a vertical direction, and not in a horizontal direction. John Schnurer wrote: > > My understanding is the lifter is at about 40 to 50 percents of > its weight. > > At 50 percents this means if it weighs 100 pounds and is then > turned on the scale will read 50 pounds. > > To lift itself AND something, it would have to operate at 100 > percents plus some figure. > > On Fri, 11 May 2001, thomas malloy wrote: > > > > Jim made and demonstrated a "lifting" machine.... I think it uses > > >mechanical forcing of mass and makes a lot of noise, or one model did. > > > I did hear hee was trying to get it to go beyong 100 percents. > > > > > > What do you mean by go beyond 100%? Does that mean that if the > > machine weights 100 pounds and produces 95 pounds of lift that it is > > at 95%? > > > > > > > > > > > I will try to find details about where his demonstrations were, > > >but in Reno as I recall. > > > An honest guy, no magic involved, just the movement of masses by > > >gears and so on. > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 13 17:52:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA08021; Sun, 13 May 2001 17:52:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:52:11 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:58:30 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: John Fields cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, jlsparber@earthlink.net, GESREBSPAR@aol.com Subject: Possible ... Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate In-Reply-To: <3AFEB4A0.13C3B1A@austininstruments.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ySl413.0.Ez1.xmo_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42537 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear folks, A more accurate way to say this might be: Some mathmatical theories offered by some scientists indicate "xxxx" may be occuring in the universe. On Sun, 13 May 2001, John Fields wrote: > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > Recently, astronomers have discovered that expansion of the Universe is increasing. > > > > The speed of light is given as c = 1/(uo*eo)^1/2 where uo is 4(pi)x10^-7 henry/ meter > > and eo = 8.85x10^-12 farad/meter. > > > > Since expansion of the Universe makes Space more tenuous, permeability uo and > > permittivity eo decrease and c becomes greater. > > > > Thus, since E = mc^2 , m = E/c^2 so an increase in c dictates that mass m Must > > Decrease, thus conserving > > Energy and Momentum. > > > > You can quote me on this. :-) > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > --- > Sounds good to me! > > Since Cerenkov radiation is a result of FTL travel, it seems that > superluminal velocities of propagation are not ruled out, but depend on > the electrical properties of the material through which the radiation > propagates. Thus, if we were to completely remove all mass from some > volume of local space, c would be limited to 3.0*10E9m/s because space > itself isn't empty and presents an impedance which will limit c. > > If space itself becomes more tenuous as we approach the horizon of our > universe, the velocity of mass will increase, as will c, because of the > attraction caused by the (infinite?) void on the other side of the > horizon. If this is true, then it's like we're surrounded by an > inverted black hole into which mass and radiation from our universe is > being drawn. The horizon of the universe, then, would be that point > beyond which we could not detect mass or energy because they were being > "swallowed up" by the void. > > This would certainly explain where the missing mass is, as well as why > the universe is expanding at an increasing rate the farther out we go. > > --- > John Fields > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 13 22:21:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA14742; Sun, 13 May 2001 22:19:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:19:58 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:19:24 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000101c0db06$fba2a180$84181ad8@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <000101c0db06$fba2a180$84181ad8@oemcomputer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA14719 Resent-Message-ID: <"gZioo2.0.Bc3.-hs_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42538 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Sat, 12 May 2001 09:13:55 -0700: >No; You are just using theory; There is much more energy available from >experimental devices. That may well be so, but the implication is that it isn't likely to have anything to do with neutrinos. >Maybe some form of gamma ray is also involved. There is even less gamma-ray energy available. >What >part of australia are you from? Melbourne. > Are you close to Carins? No, but have been thinking of going up to take a look anyway. The only problem is I don't think I would be welcome, as I am just a sticky beak ;). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 01:40:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA30399; Mon, 14 May 2001 01:39:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 01:39:40 -0700 Message-ID: <006a01c0dc48$cc78d1c0$a7b4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Heat Switched Iron-Rhodium Alloy Motor Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 02:36:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"QlMI-.0.vQ7.Cdv_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42539 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Around 1961 a trade publication featured a motor made by having an Iron-Rhodium Alloy deposited around the rim of a disk, and a magnet located near the rim was used to torque the disk when the Antiferromagnetic Fe-Rh alloy was switched to Ferromagnetic when it's temperature was raised slightly above a given temperature by a localized heat source. After the activated portion reached/passed the magnet it's temperature dropped and it lost it's Ferromagnetism. I tried using an Fe-Rh "button" made by powder metallurgy at the "magic" Fe-Rh Ratio (See Hansen's; Constitution of Binary Alloys) sitting on a heated plate, and sure enough when the Fe-Rh button warmed a bit, it would jump up to a magnet and cling to it until it cooled some, and then it dropped back onto the warmed plate, thus setting up a Heat Switched cycle. Perhaps with 21st Century thin film and heat pipe technology this effect might be productively exploited? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 03:57:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA25448; Mon, 14 May 2001 03:57:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 03:57:08 -0700 Message-ID: <008a01c0dc5c$00fc2380$a7b4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Heat Switched Iron-Rhodium Alloy Motor Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 04:54:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"WRV8Q3.0.YD6.4ex_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42540 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: > > Perhaps with 21st Century thin film and heat pipe technology this effect might be productively exploited? > If my memory serves, the article was in "Design News" circa 1961. Also, with the current technology of compact Ceramic/Rare Earth Supermagnets to go along with Thin Films of Antiferromagnetic material (Fe-Rh or such) on Heat Pipes arranged around the perimeter of a rotor, something more practical than the magnetocaloric effects of the SMOT can be achieved with a candle, solar, or other heat sources. Thermacore www.thermacore.com would be a good place to look for the latest in heat pipe technology. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 06:52:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA10128; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:51:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 06:51:16 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:57:40 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Frederick Sparber cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, jlsparber@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Heat Switched Iron-Rhodium Alloy Motor In-Reply-To: <006a01c0dc48$cc78d1c0$a7b4bfa8@computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mRYHC1.0.AU2.KB-_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42541 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Use cigarette lighter flints..... fix one to a springy piece of wire .... long, thin wire.... use a ceramic magnet and see the flint is magnetic..... heat the flint in mild flame ... too large or hot and the flint will begin to burn. These flints are often rare earth and-or cerium iron alloys. Design your motor. On Mon, 14 May 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Around 1961 a trade publication featured a motor made by having an Iron-Rhodium Alloy > deposited around the rim of a disk, and a magnet located near the rim was used > to torque the disk when the Antiferromagnetic Fe-Rh alloy was switched to > Ferromagnetic when it's temperature was raised slightly above a given temperature by > a localized heat source. > > After the activated portion reached/passed the magnet it's > temperature dropped and it lost it's Ferromagnetism. > > I tried using an Fe-Rh "button" made by powder metallurgy at the "magic" Fe-Rh Ratio > (See Hansen's; Constitution of Binary Alloys) sitting on > a heated plate, and sure enough when the Fe-Rh button > warmed a bit, it would jump up to a magnet and cling to it > until it cooled some, and then it dropped back onto the > warmed plate, thus setting up a Heat Switched cycle. > > Perhaps with 21st Century thin film and heat pipe technology this effect might be > productively exploited? > > Regards, Frederick > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 06:58:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA12162; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:57:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 06:57:39 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514095456.00a8ac80@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:57:26 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper In-Reply-To: <0GD700BHW1WHA1@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"h14Iy3.0.tz2.JH-_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42542 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >So your ratio is 1:117,647 is generally correct for a typical US reactor, and >would be off by a factor of ~20 for a breeder reactor with a near 100% >burnup . . . Yes, that's what I said, recycling or a breeder reactor would be whole different story. I did not look at Jones' figures. Perhaps he forgot that reactors only use a fraction of 1% of the fuel. >, which will likely never exist in the US, thanks to our abandonment of >the Clinch River Breeder reactor project. If the Japanese breeder program is any indication of the state of the art, it is a good thing we abandoned our project. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 07:00:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA12777; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:59:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 06:59:57 -0700 Message-ID: <005401c0dc75$88e57f80$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Heat Switched Iron-Rhodium Alloy Motor Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 07:58:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"811K02.0.U73.SJ-_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42543 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schnurer" To: "Frederick Sparber" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:57 AM Subject: Re: Heat Switched Iron-Rhodium Alloy Motor John Schnurer wrote: > > > Use cigarette lighter flints..... > > fix one to a springy piece of wire .... long, thin wire.... use a > ceramic magnet and see the flint is magnetic..... heat the flint in mild > flame ... too large or hot and the flint will begin to burn. > > These flints are often rare earth and-or cerium iron alloys. > > Design your motor. Interesting, John. Thanks. And thanks for Not writing your thoughts in the Subject Header. :-) Regards, Frederick > > On Mon, 14 May 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > Around 1961 a trade publication featured a motor made by having an Iron-Rhodium Alloy > > deposited around the rim of a disk, and a magnet located near the rim was used > > to torque the disk when the Antiferromagnetic Fe-Rh alloy was switched to > > Ferromagnetic when it's temperature was raised slightly above a given temperature by > > a localized heat source. > > > > After the activated portion reached/passed the magnet it's > > temperature dropped and it lost it's Ferromagnetism. > > > > I tried using an Fe-Rh "button" made by powder metallurgy at the "magic" Fe-Rh Ratio > > (See Hansen's; Constitution of Binary Alloys) sitting on > > a heated plate, and sure enough when the Fe-Rh button > > warmed a bit, it would jump up to a magnet and cling to it > > until it cooled some, and then it dropped back onto the > > warmed plate, thus setting up a Heat Switched cycle. > > > > Perhaps with 21st Century thin film and heat pipe technology this effect might be > > productively exploited? > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 07:39:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA25056; Mon, 14 May 2001 07:37:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 07:37:56 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514101902.023b5320@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:37:48 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010511155401.0292c728@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010502174022.02900de8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010426174338.02814530@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ALp5h.0.L76.4t-_w"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42544 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: >It would appear, therefore, that my original number was too high by a >factor of roughly 15x10^6/102000 = 147, not due to a miscalculation, but >due to faded numbers in a table. Good. Glad you got that straightened out. >The question, therefore, is this: does the new number still support the >conclusion that nuclear power is vastly safer than any of the alternatives, >or not? In other words, is the likelihood that roughly 102,000 times as >many workers are exposed to accidents . . . Nope. The number of workers per MW is roughly the same, as I pointed out in an earlier message. A coal miner extracts 50,000 tons per year, a uranium miner extracts a few thousand pounds, and it takes many more people to prepare the uranium fuel. In the short term, the coal kills many more customers (citizens, ordinary folks) than the uranium, but in the long term we don't know yet. A single serious melt down accident in a populated area might even up the score, by releasing about as much radioactive material as 1000 Hiroshima bombs. See: http://www.ratical.org/radiation/CNR/fission.txt >And, of course, since a breeder program would use the U-238 to produce >Pu-239, thereby turning *all* of the uranium into nuclear fuel, and since >the percentage abundance of U-238 in uranite is 139 times as great as that >of U-235, the multiple for a breeder program the goes back up to about 15 >million to 1 again--i.e., when Pu-239 fired nuclear furnaces are used. Yes, and this would be a fine idea if you don't mind paying 10 to 40 times more for electricity. If cost and liability are no issue, and you favor of a "vitually socialist" approach (Heritage Foundation), then nuclear power is for you. I myself am a capitalist. I do not think the government should exempt one industry from legal responsibilities that all other industries must bear. Nuclear power would not survive in a free market, so I think it is best to let it die, gradually. It is dying, despite huge subsidies and 60 years of government pampering. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 09:47:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03023; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:43:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:43:41 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514123427.023aff68@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 12:43:41 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Yucca Mountain Project statement seems reasonable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"7fSaU2.0.9l.yi00x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42545 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The DoE claims that the rock formations and water table at Yucca are sufficient to "keep the waste sufficiently isolated for thousands of years so that the radioactive material will pose about the same risk or less risk of health effects to the public as that of unmined uranium ore." I cannot judge whether that is true or not, but if is true, it is hard to see how anyone can ask for more from a waste disposal method. See: http://www.ymp.gov/index.htm This website seems to be an honest effort to admit potential weaknesses, root out problems, and deal with every reasonable loose end. The DOE seems to be dealing with the nuclear waste problem conscientiously, if not effectively. Ed Storms says the community does not trust the DOE's managers at Los Alamos, and the DoE certainly botched CF research, but perhaps some groups within the organization do a better job than others. Some CF scientists claim they can remediate high-level waste, but these experiments have not yet been widely replicated. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 11:38:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA14316; Mon, 14 May 2001 11:34:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:34:00 -0700 Message-ID: <004501c0dc99$eb82d1a0$8d181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:18:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"7A8Xq1.0.cV3.NK20x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42546 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---The bottom line is that they have tapped into energy and it works on resonance and raided labs and black heilocopters attest that they have something. I think it is a combination of energies some not yet identified. bu nutrinos and gamma rays could be a siginifant part. Time will tell. >In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Sat, 12 May 2001 09:13:55 -0700: > >>No; You are just using theory; There is much more energy available from >>experimental devices. > >That may well be so, but the implication is that it isn't likely to have >anything to do with neutrinos. > >>Maybe some form of gamma ray is also involved. > >There is even less gamma-ray energy available. > >>What >>part of australia are you from? > >Melbourne. >> Are you close to Carins? > >No, but have been thinking of going up to take a look anyway. The only >problem is I don't think I would be welcome, as I am just a sticky beak >;). > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 13:58:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02805; Mon, 14 May 2001 13:53:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:53:29 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514160753.023b5320@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:52:51 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Raids and helicopters prove nothing In-Reply-To: <004501c0dc99$eb82d1a0$8d181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"07i9K.0.lh.9N40x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42547 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bruce Meland wrote: >---The bottom line is that they have tapped into energy and it works on >resonance and raided labs and black heilocopters attest that they have >something. The "raided labs" and "black helicopters" prove nothing. First of all, I doubt they exist. Second, assuming for the sake of argument they do exist, they are raiding the wrong labs. Cold fusion definitely does exist. It has been deliberately oppressed by powerful organizations including the DoE, the APS and Exxon. It has been observed in hundreds of labs, yet not a single one of these labs has been raided or visited by black helicopters, or even black Miyata sports cars. Perhaps the people running the conspiracy to suppress new energy are so stupid they cannot understand peer-reviewed scientific literature. In that case you have nothing to fear from them. A counter-argument might be that the conspiracy is so smart it only cracks down when a new form of energy is on the verge of commercialization. Cold fusion is far from being practical, so it is no threat, whereas the "amplifiers" might put OPEC out of business. The problem with this theory is that there are thriving industries which *will* put OPEC out of business -- or at least, will seriously hurt OPEC -- and no one is stopping these industries. The black helicopters should descend upon Toyota's hybrid automobile factories. It should attack Denmark and shut down the wind-generator industry. Wind power is already sucking billion of dollars of profit from oil, coal and gas every year, with 17,000 MW capacity installed. At this rate, in 30 years the people in Denmark will obliterate coal and fission. Powerful interests recognize the threat, and fear it. The coal and natural gas industry is striking back with every low-down, dirty, stab-in-the-back tactic it knows, in Congress, the White House, state legislatures, in unfair deals with power companies, and public relations campaigns and elsewhere, yet it can't stop wind power. So why doesn't The Conspiracy take effective steps to close down the industry? Is wind power too big already? Okay, why didn't The Conspiracy crush it back in 1985 when wind had few supporters and only millions, instead of billions, in income. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 15:42:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA12757; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:38:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:38:40 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:38:03 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <004501c0dc99$eb82d1a0$8d181ad8@oemcomputer> <5.0.2.1.2.20010514160753.023b5320@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514160753.023b5320@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA12725 Resent-Message-ID: <"UH_WQ1.0.873.lv50x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42548 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 May 2001 16:52:51 -0400: [snip] >elsewhere, yet it can't stop wind power. So why doesn't The Conspiracy take >effective steps to close down the industry? Is wind power too big already? >Okay, why didn't The Conspiracy crush it back in 1985 when wind had few >supporters and only millions, instead of billions, in income. [snip] Because it isn't just the replacement of the fossil fuel industry that is considered a "problem". It's the fact(?) that ZPE based devices relate to anti-gravity, and the peaceful races in the galaxy don't want belligerent xenophobic warmongering Earthlings bothering them. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 15:42:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA13541; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:40:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:40:14 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yucca Mountain Project statement seems reasonable Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:40:03 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514123427.023aff68@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514123427.023aff68@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA13460 Resent-Message-ID: <"iZnUx3.0.LJ3.Dx50x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42549 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 May 2001 12:43:41 -0400: >The DoE claims that the rock formations and water table at Yucca are >sufficient to "keep the waste sufficiently isolated for thousands of years >so that the radioactive material will pose about the same risk or less risk >of health effects to the public as that of unmined uranium ore." I cannot >judge whether that is true or not, but if is true, it is hard to see how >anyone can ask for more from a waste disposal method. [snip] The problem with this is that the radioisotopes are even considered to be waste. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 15:50:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA15184; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:44:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:44:16 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514123427.023aff68@pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514123427.023aff68@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:44:16 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Yucca Mountain Project Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"SJDZ31.0.0j3._-50x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42550 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote > >http://www.ymp.gov/index.htm > >This website seems to be an honest effort to admit potential >weaknesses, root out problems, and deal with every reasonable loose >end. The DOE seems to be dealing Your posting motivated me to write a report on my visit to Paul Brown's website at www.globalatomics.com . If the site is to believed, Paul is hard at work on building a large machine, the purpose of which is to make nuclear waste nonradioactive in months. There are lots of papers posted on the site, which I don't have time to read, I'm hoping that some of you Vortexians will be motivated to read them. I wrote Paul a letter in which I mentioned the Beeper project and that I was planning on mentioning his work to them. That was two weeks ago, and he has yet to respond. I wonder is Paul is still upset about my using the word avarice in relation to something he did? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 15:56:56 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA18038; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:51:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:51:00 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010511155401.0292c728@pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502174022.02900de8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010426174338.02814530@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:48:18 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Resent-Message-ID: <"0pA8Z1.0.jP4.K560x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42551 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{This is a response to various claims made by Jed Rothwell which required research and, thus, were snipped out of my previous response. --MJ}*** >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> >That's wrong, according to the ANS and every other source I know of. >> >>***{This is not a matter of someone's opinion: it is a matter of >>straightforward calculation. Therefore, let me expand on that calculation, >>in order to make it easier for you to follow, and, thus, to criticize, if >>you can: >I don't need to criticize it. All industry sources show that it is wrong by >many orders of magnitude. Terry Blanton cited a DoE document quoting 40 >GWDt/MTU (gigawatt-days thermal per metric ton of uranium). That works out >closer to my figure than yours. ***{The above statement is wildly incorrect. Here, between the lines of asterisks, are the statements defining our original positions on this subject: *********************************** MJ: "That means there is far more energy concentrated in a pound of uranium than in a pound of coal, or oil, or gasoline, etc. JR: "The uranium comes from ore, which is not as concentrated as oil or coal." *********************************** In the ensuing discussion, we have now come to agree that there is roughly 100,000 times as much energy concentrated in a pound of uranium as in a pound of coal. The question is, is that closer to my original position, or to yours? --Mitchell Jones}*** >I have >> >a sample fake uranium fuel pellet from the ANS. The package says it has as >> >much energy as 3 barrels of oil (126 gallons) or 1 ton of coal (2,000 >> >lbs.). I cannot find the precise mass of the fuel pellet, but my ruler >> >shows the size is 1.5 cm x 0.8 cm, which comes to 0.75 cm^3. U fuel weighs >> >10.2 grams per cubic cm, so that's 7.7 grams, or 0.017 lbs. In other words, >> >the ratio is 1:117,647. >> >>***{That is ridiculous. A fake fuel pellet obviously contains far less >>uranium than a real fuel pellet. If it contained as much, it would be real, >>not fake. > >This is a misunderstanding. The fake pellet is made of plastic. It is in a >cardboard package with information about the industry. I used it to >estimate the volume of a pellet, and from that I derived the mass. The >density of 10.2 grams per cubic cm is from a textbook on nuclear fuel. ***{OK, I see what you are saying. That looks plausible to me at this point, due to my discovery that I had misread the BTU content of coal in my table.--MJ}*** >>Like it or not, you are going to >>have to find an error in that calculation, or your entire position will be >>rendered untenable by it. > >Like it or not YOU will have to find an error the DoE's calculation, or >YOUR entire position will be rendered untenable by it. You are arguing with >the DoE and American Nuclear Society, not with me. ***{As I pointed out in my earlier brief answer to this post, the DOE number is almost an order of magnitude *higher* than the number which I calculated--which means: it is much more supportive of my position than yours. Specifically, Terry Blanton's DOE number was 40 gigawatt days thermal output per metric ton of uranium consumed, which comes down to 10^9 joules/sec times the number of seconds in 40 days--i.e., (10^9)[(40)(24)(3600)] = 3.46x10^15 joules. Since a metric ton of uranium is 1000 kg or 2200 lbs, that is 3.46x10^15/2200 = 1.57x10^12 joules/lb. Since 1 joule is 9.482x10^-4 BTU's, we obtain (1.57x10^12)(9.482x10^-4) = 1.49x10^9 BTU's/lb.That is almost an order of magnitude higher than my earlier figure of 2.24x10^8 BTU's/lb. As to why the DOE number was higher than what I calculated, the answer probably reflects the fact that the normal operation of a U-235 reactor breeds enough Pu-239 so that its subsequent fission boosts the power level above what might be expected from considering the U-235 alone. --Mitchell Jones}*** >Also, the comment about coal miners dying "like flies" is ridiculous. ***{When I said they "died like flies," I merely meant that there were vast numbers of deaths among coal miners attributable to that cause, by comparison to the total numbers of victims of any lung disease that might be associated with uranium mining. (Glowing lung disease? :-) The reason for such a disparity, of course, lies in the vastly greater numbers of persons who are exposed, in coal mines as opposed to uranium mines, for a given amount of energy extracted. --MJ}*** This >is not 1901. People do not go into holes underground to mine coal in the >U.S. They strip mine it ***{Incorrect. While the proportion of strip mined coal has been rising in recent years, it has only reached rough parity with underground mining. (See, for example, http://www.nmsea.org/Curriculum/Primer/strip_mining_of_coal.htm. Of related interest is http://home.naxs.com/sosborne/underground.html, which describes underground coal mining in the U.S. I would also note the unintended irony in your statement--i.e., it is false of coal, and true of uranium. That is, people almost never go into holes underground to mine uranium in the U.S. Instead, they drill boreholes into the orebody, inject chemicals to dissolve the uranium, and then simply pump it out of the ground! (See below.) --Mitchell Jones}*** , and the overall safety of the industry is good ***{It has always been good, even in 1901. Everybody dies of something. The fact that underground coal miners in 1901 faced a high likelihood that, if they remained in the profession until retirement, they would die of black lung disease, does not mean they died all that much quicker than other types of manual laborers. --MJ}*** , if >you do not count the people they kill by burning the coal. ***{Reduced air pollution, of course, is yet another advantage of nuclear power. However, historically, coal burning has saved vast numbers of human lives. It was the primary energy source during the industrial revolution, which saw a vast increase in the numbers and life expectancies of common people. Without the opportunity to take jobs in an industrial workforce, they would have had no chance to escape from the oppresive conditions of the feudal system, and the short, miserable lives which it entailed. Thus there is nothing wrong with coal mining, per se. It had its time, and it was an appropriate energy source for that time. Problems arise, however, when political influence is used to maintain an energy source beyond its natural lifetime, as is the case to a large extent with the coal industry today. The use of non-concentrated energy sources of that sort, of necessity, requires the employment of vast numbers of workers in high-risk occupations, and quite inevitably results in large numbers of injuries and deaths due to accidental causes. Thus it is in the generalized interests of society as a whole, as well as in the interests of the workers in such industries, that more advanced, hence more highly concentrated, energy technologies be permitted to compete on a level playing field. The reason is that the natural rise to dominance of more concentrated forms of energy, if permitted to happen, will have the effect of displacing workers from high-risk, manual-labor intensive occupations, into safer occupations involving a higher proportion of mental work. Unfortunately, under democratic fascism, those who lobby for the "interests" of the high-risk energy sources have more political clout than those who lobby for the low-risk energy sources, precisely *because* the low risk sources expose fewer workers to danger, and, thus, have fewer supporters. It is much easier for an industry to get its way in Washington, if it employs a vast, widely distributed workforce and has huge labor unions and large numbers of local politicians ready to go to bat for it, than if it does not. Result: fascist governments, at the behest of the lobbyists for high-risk energy sources such as coal, oil, natural gas, etc., saddled the low-risk nuclear power industry with a massive proliferation of contrived, ridiculous, "safety" regulations, thereby running up its costs, and preventing nuclear from supplanting its higher risk competitors. I would add that the same thing will happen to "cold fusion," should it prove to be real. It will be, after all, just another concentrated, highly safe alternative to Big Oil, Big Gas, and Big Coal. As such, it will have exactly the chance of a snowball in hell of surviving the regulatory assault in Washington. --Mitchell Jones}*** >Coal does take more workers per megawatt hour compared to uranium, but the >difference is not that dramatic. You have to mine 1,000 times more mass of >coal than uranium. (You get 100,000 times more energy out of U, but the U >ore density is usually ~1% ***{The average grade of uranium ore is low not because high grade deposits do not exist, but because the most modern, least labor intensive, and lowest cost technique of uranium extraction is in situ leaching. Here is the way it works: your geologist finds surface indications of uranium in a region where there are vast beds of porous, water saturated sandstone, and so you bore a test hole. If you pull out deep, saturated sandstone cores containing a low percentage of uranium--typically far less than 1%--you drill a rectangular grid pattern of boreholes into the deposit. (One hole every 20 meters is fairly typical.) Out of one of the holes, you pump water, which is typically useless, poisonous, unpotable water with a dangerously high radiation content. You then add chemicals designed to dissolve the uranium ores off of the sand grains in the deposit, and you pipe the resulting solvent water to injection holes in the grid pattern. Typically, every other hole in the grid is an injection hole, with the rest being extraction holes. Solvent water is pumped down into the ore body through the injection holes, and the resulting solution containing dissolved uranium is pumped out through the extraction holes, from which it travels through a pipeline to an on-site processing facility. There, chemicals are added to the solution to cause the uranium to precipitate out in the form of U3O8, which is then dried into yellowcake, barrelled, and sold on the uranium market, where recent prices have been in the vicinity of $8.60/lb. (For a good explanation of the process, see http://esa.www5.50megs.com/mindep/depfile/insitu.htm#insitu.) The point: the low average grade of the ore used in modern uranium mining means exactly the opposite of what it would mean in traditional mining, and exactly the opposite of what you took it to mean. In traditional mining, the lower the grade of ore, the greater the amount of labor required, and the larger the population of workers that is exposed to accidents. However, modern uranium mining based on in situ leaching reduces the labor force which is exposed in the extraction process to very low levels, when compared to traditional methods such as hard rock mining, strip mining, or byproduct mining. Virtually all U.S. production is by this process, and it comprises a growing portion of worldwide production due to its massive cost savings when compared to traditional mining techniques. In the future, as more and more of the world's vast and easily worked sandstone deposits are accessed by means of this technique, it is reasonable to expect that the high grade, high cost, labor intensive, and dangerous deposits will cease to be worked entirely. (No surprise there: that's the way things work on free markets!) In summary, modern uranium mining techniques, to minimize costs, are evolving in a direction which is rapidly reducing the labor component to very low levels. While that component is not presently as low, on a pounds per worker basis, as coal, that is pretty much to be expected: coal mining has been a major industry for almost 400 years, whereas uranium mining became commercially significant less than 50 years ago. I would emphasize, by the way, that the above comments are focused on U-235 based energy production only, and ignore the even safer plutonium fuel cycle, in which the labor component drops even further. (There ain't no plutonium mines, and there never will be. :-) On a free market, plutonium produced in breeder reactors would be the dominant fuel used for energy production, and would save large numbers of lives due to the even smaller population exposed to accidents, as compared to the U-235 fuel cycle. --Mitchell Jones}*** whereas coal is close to 100% C. ***{That is glaringly false. Coal mining produces massive quantities of mine tailings and similar waste (i.e., useless unconsolidated material that remains after the coal has been separated out). Such waste takes the form of vast quantities of low grade coal ("culm and gob"), as well as oceans of leftover sludge from tipple and breaker mills, much of which is stored in "slurry ponds" on site. Here are some examples: (1) At http://www.vetiver.com/AUS_toxausres.htm you will find reference to an attempt to clean up coal mine tailings that had a surface area of 23 hectares and a volume of 3.5 million cubic metres. (2) Here is a link to a Landsat satellite photo showing a huge area covered by coal mine tailings in Pennsylvania: http://tutorial.core.ipp.pt/mirrors/Tutorial/Sect3/nicktutor_3-6.html. (3) Here is a quote from a piece talking about attempts to clean up abandoned coal mine tailings: "Abandoned coal mine tailings (called culm in the anthracite coalfields and gob in the bituminous fields) have caused environmental problems world-wide, and efforts to reprocess the gob piles into saleable coal have up to now been unsuccessful." (See http://www.mintek.co.za/Businfo/Businfo19961024.htm.) (4) Here is another quote in the same vein: "Culm and gob have been accumulated in the State of Pennsylvania USA, since the shutdown of the once-thriving hard-coal mining industry in the region over 80 years ago. These materials are the waste rock that retains some amount of anthracite or bituminous coal after the chunks of "pure" coal were separated out. Over one billion tons of the wastes, in piles-60-100 m high, have for decades marred the landscape." (See http://www.fwc.com/publications/tech_papers/powgen/coal.cfm.) (5) Here is a statement from an EPA document: ""coal" includes anthracite, bituminous, subbituminous, lignite, and waste coals (generally termed culm and gob)." (See http://www.epa.gov/icr/icr/1858.01/1858ss01.htm.) (6) Here is an ad for the "Mud Cat," which says: "Mini-Dredge Slurps Up Tons of Waste Coal from Slurry Settling Ponds. There's plenty of rich coal in slurry ponds. And all you need to get it out is to get yourself one of these mini-dredges." (See http://www.dredge.com/casestudies/coal2.htm.) (7) Here is a blurb about an environmentalist boondoggle in Australia which aims to eliminate coal tailings by burning them: "The Redbank power project, to be located about 200 km north of Sydney, will use a low-emission combustion technology that burns coal washery tailings, a waste product from a nearby coal mine." (See http://news.cens.com/bizbbs/19990430502.html.) (8) Here is a DOE document about a similar environmentalist boondoggle in the U.S.: "Coal processing frequently leaves residual waste ponds that are of little commercial value. Up to 200 new jobs could be created in West Virginia and Pennsylvania following an effort to clean up a waste pond in the mountain state, one of 400 such ponds containing about 2 billion tons of bituminous waste coal in the eastern U.S. The clean up is possible due to a new recovery process that could allow an energy company to make a profit by recovering coal from the ponds." (See http://www.fe.doe.gov/techline/tl_antaeus.html.) (9) Here is an article about a recent coal slurry spill: "The accident occurred on the property of Martin County Coal Corporation, Oct. 11, in Inez, Ky. after a 72-acre coal slurry impoundment pond collapsed into an abandoned mine shaft. The heavy, mud-like substance with the consistency of wet cement blew out three rock dams that were installed at the mine's portal to prevent people from entering the abandoned mine. The slurry, a mixture of rock dust, rock, slate, clay and water, is a byproduct of coal after it's washed. It's usually stored on mine property in an impoundment pond." (See http://www.loyno.edu/~mmmackow/story4.html.) Enough said. --Mitchell Jones}*** ) U.S. surface >mining (strip mining) productivity is ~50,000 tons per worker per year. ***{Assuming a standard 40 hour week and 50 week year, that would come to 50,000/[(40)(50)] = 25 tons per hour! Needless to say, that is a bit of a stretch, to put it mildly, even if we assume these guys are all using state of the art equipment. Moreover, it contradicts the published numbers, which in 1997 were 3.83 tons/hr for underground mining, 9.46 tons/hr for strip mining, and 6.04 tons/hr for all mines. (See http://www.nma.org/CPS%20Table7.html.) Thus the yearly total per worker for strip mining was (9.46)(40)(50) = 18920 short tons, or 37,840,000 lbs/yr. Those numbers, of course, are almost as unbelievable as those cited by you, and the reason is that they are per "worker"--a statistical abstraction--rather than per employee. As such they only apply to blue collar personnel directly involved in production, preparation, processing, development, maintenance, repair, shop, and yard work. They exclude blue collar personnel working silt, culm, refuse bank, slurry dam, and dredge operations, and they exclude white collar employees working in data processing, personnel, payroll, sales, clerical support, accounting, geology, environmental assessment and remediation, legal, management, lobbying, etc. If the same statistic were figured on a per employee basis, my guess is that the numbers would be lower by 90% or more. (See http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/cia/html/tbl57p01p2.html for a definition of "productivity per worker.") As to why such bizarre definitions are used, the answer lies in politics: the last 20 years have been the era of the "great bull market," and, to justify the preposterous prices of stocks, thereby giving the Fed an excuse to not raise interest rates (which would bring the market back to Earth with a crash, to the extreme discomfiture of the incumbents in Washington), it has been deemed desirable to boost the productivity numbers. The benefit of doing so lies in the fact that the higher "productivity" goes, the higher the GNP numbers, and the lower the "inflation" numbers. Thus the "productivity" numbers have moved further and further from reality, as the bureaucrats in Washington have found more and more excuses to cook the books, thereby justifying a continuation of the insane, and unsustainable, bull market. --Mitchell Jones}*** The >best uranium mine produced 32,000 lbs of uranium-oxide per year per worker >(16 tons) ***{I only found one site which provided enough data for me to do a calculation, but the number that resulted demonstrated that your statement, above, is incorrect. What I found was that Cameco, the Canada based corporation which is the world's largest miner of uranium, produced 40,000 lbs of U3O8 per employee in 1999, a number which is higher than your figure from the let-go. Worse, since this is a Canadian number not influenced by the corrupt practices in Washington, it was obtained by dividing total output by the total number of employees, rather than by the much smaller number of personnel who count statistically as "workers" in the U.S. Result: it needs to be adjusted to render it comparable to the bizarre U.S. coal industry figures. Taking my guess, above, that blue collar grunt workers who are counted in the coal industry productivity figures comprise 10% of coal industry employees, we obtain the following equation: .1X = 40,000, with X representating the productivity per "worker" in the uranium mining industry. Solving, we find that X = 400,000 lbs of U3O8 per "worker" per year. (See http://www.cameco.com/investor/speeches/nesbit.html.) --MJ}*** , and most are down around 10,000 lbs (5 tons). ***{Given that just about everything you have said so far has been wrong, I am not about to believe the above without a reference. --MJ}*** I think those are >pounds of refined uranium, not ore ***{U3O8 is yellowcake, which is the only "ore" humans ever see at the sites which employ in situ leaching. It is the product of an on-site refining process that is in every way comparable to that which takes place in tipple and breaker mills, and, thus, it is an ore in the same sense that the coal coming out of tipple and breaker mills is an ore. --MJ}*** , so the energy advantage goes back up, >and those 16 tons are roughly equivalent to 1.6 million tons of coal ***{A mole of U3O8 contains 3(238) + 8(16) = 842 grams of material, for which the proportion of uranium is 3(238)/842 = .848. Thus there would be .848(842) = 714 grams of uranium, of which .0072(714) = 5.14 grams would be U-235. That is (5.14/235)(6.022x10^23) = 1.32x10^22 atoms. Each has a fission yield of 200 MeV, so the total yield is (200)(1.32x10^22) = 2.63x10^24 MeV per mole of U3O8, which translates to 4.0x10^8 BTU's/mole, or 2.16x10^8 BTU's/lb. Dividing by the number of BTU's in a typical pound of coal then yields a ratio of (2.16x10^8)/(11655) = 18,533. Thus a pound of yellowcake contains 18,533 times as much energy as a pound of coal.Using the uranium industry productivirty figure calculated earlier--i.e., 400,000 lbs of yellowcake per "worker" per year, we find that to be equivalent to (400,000)(18,533) = 7.41x10^9 lbs of coal per year, where energy content is concerned. That is 3,706,600 short tons per worker per year. --MJ}*** , an >advantage of 32:1 for uranium in the mining phase. ***{No, the energy productivity of a uranium miner is 3,706,600/18,920 = 196 times as great as that of a coal miner. That means uranium mining is 196 times as safe as coal mining. --MJ}*** I have no idea how many >people it takes to >to refine, process, prepare and test the fuel rods, but that processing >drives the cost up by a factor of 100, so it may take many people. ***{Of course it does. However, those people are working with relatively small amounts of material, and thus they are small in number--which means very few people are exposed to accidents in that processing. Using the DOE number that you obtained from Terry--i.e., 40 gigawatt-days or 3,456,000 gigajoules per metric ton of uranium--meeting average U.S. energy needs of 766 gigajoules/sec, which is 2.42x10^10 gigajoules per year, will require the shipping and consumption of 6,995 metric tons of uranium. A typical pound of coal, however, contains only 11,655 BTU's, or 12.3x10^6 joules. That is 2200(12.3x10^6)/10^9 = 27 gigajoules per metric ton of coal. Result: meeting U.S. energy needs of 2.42x10^10 gigajoules/yr will require the shipment and consumption of 8.95x10^8 metric tons of coal. To sum up, we either ship and consume 6,995 metric tons of uranium, or we ship and consume 895,000,000 metric tons of coal. The ratio of materials shipped, therefore, is 127,819:1. That means 127,819 times as many man-hours will be required to ship and consume the coal, as will be required to ship and consume the nuclear fuel. Bottom line: ready-to-burn nuclear fuel is 127,819 times as safe as ready-to-burn coal. --Mitchell Jones}*** >See: > >http://www.norwestmines.com/measres.html >http://www.uilondon.org/sym/1997/fig-htm/catf3-h.htm > >Mind you, despite the cost and risk of uranium, I would rather live next >door to a nuclear plant than a coal plant. But unlike Jones I do not invent >wildly incorrect statistics to justify this preference. ***{The above statement is a perfect illustration of why there is no possibility of ever having a civil discussion with you, and why I long ago ceased trying. The fact of the matter is that you began this dispute by denying that the energy content of coal was less than that of nuclear. Here, as also noted above, is the proof: *********************************** MJ: "That means there is far more energy concentrated in a pound of uranium than in a pound of coal, or oil, or gasoline, etc. JR: "The uranium comes from ore, which is not as concentrated as oil or coal." *********************************** Now, after a series of exchanges in which I have attempted to justify my statement, above, with detailed calculations and references, and we have finally reached agreement that the amount of energy in a pound of uranium is vastly greater than that in a pound of coal, you are insinuating that I have been both wrong and dishonest in my way of arguing. The fact, however, which is apparent to anyone who has been paying attention, is that it is *you* who have been demonstrated to be wrong, and, because you are now insinuating that your position has, from the beginning, been as it is now, it is also you who has been demonstrated to be dishonest. The bottom line, as usual, is that you are full of beans. Your problem is that you are driven by ideology, rather than by the search for truth. Result: you attempt to hammer the facts into the form necessary to fit your political preconceptions, rather than adjusting your political views to fit the facts. --Mitchell Jones}*** In any case, Jones >betrays his own political ideology by supporting nuclear power. ***{My political ideology is no secret: I believe each person is the owner of his body and the product of his labor (or, in the case of trade, of that which he voluntarily exchanges for the product of his labor), and that the only way he can forfeit those rights is by criminality--i.e, by the deliberate failure to respect the ownership rights of others. That means no government has the right, whether on the grounds of the supposed "public interest," or for any other reason, to violate the property rights of anyone who has respected the property rights of others. Result: I believe the sole legitimate function of government is the protection of the property rights of its citizens, and, thus, am an advocate of what has come to be known as laissez faire capitalism. --MJ}*** , and As the Cato >Institute points out, the nuclear industry would vanish were it not for >government backing ***{I say that is utter rubbish, but I am willing to put that judgment to the test: let's just remove all governmental power to violate property rights, save in response to persons who have violated property rights themselves, and let's see if the nuclear power industry survives! That will never happen, of course, because under democratic fascism, the lobbyists for the fossil fuel industry have more political influence, and will quite inevitably succeed in suffocating any competition from nuclear power under a blanket of ridiculous controls. But if those controls were, in fact, removed, the outcome is crudely obvious: nuclear technology, including the safety related aspects of that technology, would come under the purview of *engineers*, rather than being defined behind closed doors in Washington D.C., and the costs per kilowatt hour of nuclear would fall so low that fossil fuel fired sources would disappear from the marketplace, save in a few specialized niche applications. The result would be an enormous expansion in the habitable living space available to human beings: it would become possible to live underground, in vast cities under the crust of Earth, or under the ice caps of northern Canada, Greenland, Siberia, and Antarctica, or on the floor of the ocean, or on the moon, or Mars, or in the asteroid belt, or the moons of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, etc. Food would be grown hydroponically, using light produced by nuclear power. On Earth, the reduction in the amount of land needed for surface farming that has long been underway would go to completion: surface farming would virtually disappear. Likewise, the power grid would disappear, as individual homeowners installed household pebble-bed reactors and severed their connections to electric utilities. And the highway system would disappear, as nuclear powered aircraft hauled more and more of the passenger and freight traffic. And surface housing would disappear, as it became cost effective, due to virtually free energy, to live underground. Result: the surface of the Earth would become a virtual naturalist's paradise: woodlands and forests would cover virtually all of the surface, and the evidence of human activities, and of a human presence, would virtually disappear. None of that, of course, can or will happen in a world dominated by governments that are free to violate property rights "in the public interest." --Mitchell Jones}*** , especially limitation to liability in the Price >Anderson Act. ***{Then abolish it, as well as all other laws and regulations that interfere with the operation of free markets, and let's see what will happen. I'm game. But, of course, the opponents of nuclear power, by and large, worship authoritarian government (not counting the CATO institute, of course), and it will be a cold day in hell before they will ever suggest anything that would test the correctness of their beliefs, even on a small scale in some small country or state. That, in fact, is the proof that in his heart every government worshipping zealot knows he is wrong: none of them are willing to permit a free country to exist anywhere, because they know if they do so, it will quickly rise to dominate the world. They are all cowards who lack the strength to put their convictions to the test, truth be told. --MJ}*** See: > >http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa036.html > >Quotes: > >"As Richard Holwill of the Heritage Foundation writes, the Reagan >administration 'gives the appearance of being for a free market in all >things conventional, but virtually socialist on nuclear power.' > >These subsidies do not necessarily establish the nonviability of the >nuclear power industry, in that it is conceivable that these functions >could be taken over by private industry. However, the one >government-furnished privilege that the nuclear industry could find it >hardest to live without is the Price-Anderson Act's limitation on a nuclear >power plant's liability in case of an accident. . . ." ***{Incorrect. If this discussion has demonstrated anything, it is precisely the fact that nuclear power is vastly safer than any alternative system of power generation, due to the vastly, disporportionately smaller number of workers which it puts at risk. --MJ}*** >- Jed ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 19:27:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA10492; Mon, 14 May 2001 19:26:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:26:42 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010514203504.00c28220@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 21:28:36 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies In-Reply-To: <004501c0dc99$eb82d1a0$8d181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"WYG4t3.0.oZ2.XF90x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42552 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:18 AM 5/14/01 -0700, you wrote: >---The bottom line is that they have tapped into energy and it works on >resonance and raided labs and black heilocopters attest that they have >something. I think it is a combination of energies some not yet identified. >bu nutrinos and gamma rays could be a siginifant part. Time will tell. Raided labs! Black helicopters!! MEN IN BLACK !!! AAAAAAAAAAAAH Please understand that this is NOT a personal attack. I just wanted to point out some things that the tabloids and Hollywood producers might not have noticed. To raid a lab in the daytime I would choose sky blue with neutral grey on the top. At night a darker blue is more appropriate with a dark lome top. People do not typically build labs in the wilderness but the dark lome will work for this as well. All of this paint should be flat subdued paint as a flash or shine could give you away. Another good choice is an enhanced leading edge on the rotor which allows the pilot to choose a lower RPM and has a silencing effect. To operate a covert raid one must choose there equipment and camouflage carefully and black helicopters just ain't in the picture. Surprise is of the upmost importance. Another thing about helicopters is that they are extraordinarily difficult to use in metropolitan arias. It is bad enough to filter your way through a crowded sky when you are using running lights a transponder and direct communication with an air traffic controller. To do this in "camo" is suicide. Stele grey automobiles blend into the road and typical warehouse environments much better then black. Again subdued paint would be my choice. Although an automobile is worthless as an assault vehicle. A sliding side door van would be better. As far as men in black... Dark sand color is much more difficult to see in your typical city and in a warehouse lot. Of course if you have never had any assault training you might never have noticed this. Finally you would only choose to raid if there was no covert option. You see a raid leaves a terrible mess that will be surrounded with yellow tape that says "Crime Scene" and have an apparent infinite number of cameras pointed into it while forensic investigators pick over the place for tiny insects and strands of hair. This makes it impossible to "keep a lid on" Though it is allot less romantic to say "Men in sand" and "an assault team arrived in a primer grey van" And "I couldn't see or hear any helicopters but I'm sure there where some there." Besides if keeping a lid on this was done this way we would all be toast. Have you not noticed that your address is in the header. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 19:52:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA17850; Mon, 14 May 2001 19:47:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:47:34 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0098C8.D50BDB54@groupz.net> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:47:36 -0400 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies References: <4.2.0.58.20010514203504.00c28220@postoffice.swbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zw3w01.0.qM4.6Z90x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42553 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just for info...I live near a goverment nuke facility....about every three months see five black helicopters with no markings going past house toward the facility... think they are quick reaction force... they also have funny sound...not mufled but different then any have heard before....have been around helicopters and know most of their sounds....steve think is quick Charles Ford wrote: > > At 10:18 AM 5/14/01 -0700, you wrote: > > >---The bottom line is that they have tapped into energy and it works on > >resonance and raided labs and black heilocopters attest that they have > >something. I think it is a combination of energies some not yet identified. > >bu nutrinos and gamma rays could be a siginifant part. Time will tell. > > Raided labs! Black helicopters!! MEN IN BLACK !!! AAAAAAAAAAAAH > > Please understand that this is NOT a personal attack. I just wanted to > point out some things that the tabloids and Hollywood producers might not > have noticed. > > To raid a lab in the daytime I would choose sky blue with neutral grey on > the top. At night a darker blue is more appropriate with a dark lome > top. People do not typically build labs in the wilderness but the dark > lome will work for this as well. All of this paint should be flat subdued > paint as a flash or shine could give you away. Another good choice is an > enhanced leading edge on the rotor which allows the pilot to choose a lower > RPM and has a silencing effect. To operate a covert raid one must > choose there equipment and camouflage carefully and black helicopters just > ain't in the picture. Surprise is of the upmost importance. > > Another thing about helicopters is that they are extraordinarily difficult > to use in metropolitan arias. It is bad enough to filter your way through > a crowded sky when you are using running lights a transponder and direct > communication with an air traffic controller. To do this in "camo" is suicide. > > Stele grey automobiles blend into the road and typical warehouse > environments much better then black. Again subdued paint would be my > choice. Although an automobile is worthless as an assault vehicle. A > sliding side door van would be better. As far as men in black... Dark > sand color is much more difficult to see in your typical city and in a > warehouse lot. Of course if you have never had any assault training you > might never have noticed this. > > Finally you would only choose to raid if there was no covert option. You > see a raid leaves a terrible mess that will be surrounded with yellow tape > that says "Crime Scene" and have an apparent infinite number of cameras > pointed into it while forensic investigators pick over the place for tiny > insects and strands of hair. This makes it impossible to "keep a lid on" > > Though it is allot less romantic to say "Men in sand" and "an assault > team arrived in a primer grey van" And "I couldn't see or hear any > helicopters but I'm sure there where some there." > > Besides if keeping a lid on this was done this way we would all be > toast. Have you not noticed that your address is in the header. > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 14 23:49:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA08617; Mon, 14 May 2001 23:49:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:49:10 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514160753.023b5320@pop.mindspring.com> <004501c0dc99$eb82d1a0$8d181ad8@oemcomputer> <5.0.2.1.2.20010514160753.023b5320@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 01:46:35 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Resent-Message-ID: <"4VPYr2.0.T62.b5D0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42554 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 May 2001 16:52:51 -0400: >[snip] >>elsewhere, yet it can't stop wind power. So why doesn't The Conspiracy take >>effective steps to close down the industry? Is wind power too big already? >>Okay, why didn't The Conspiracy crush it back in 1985 when wind had few >>supporters and only millions, instead of billions, in income. >[snip] >Because it isn't just the replacement of the fossil fuel industry that >is considered a "problem". It's the fact(?) that ZPE based devices >relate to anti-gravity, and the peaceful races in the galaxy don't want >belligerent xenophobic warmongering Earthlings bothering them. ***{Peace is only possible when governments are prohibited from violating property rights--which means: when they are structured as constitutionally limited republics similar to the original United States government. However, no present day Earth government is limited in that way. Such constitutions as still exist are *dead letter*, being accorded lip service as they repose in glass cases, while being utterly ignored in actual day-to-day governmental practice. The result is a war of all against all within each society, as ever-fluctuating coalitions of pressure groups come together, plunder the victims of the day, then dissipate and, on subsequent days, become victims themselves--with each act of legalized plunder being, of course, "in the public interest." And, naturally, the same grotesque governments that foment internal strife foment it externally as well, with dozens of wars, with accompanying slaughter, being underway at any given time. Clearly, any advanced alien civilization which is aware of the sickening regimes that pollute this murderous globe would be guaranteed to look with extreme trepidation upon the possibility that they might move into space in force, bearing weapons of mass destruction and having a propulsion technology adequate to deliver them to offworld targets. Result: any such civilization in our vicinity is guaranteed to absolutely prohibit trade with us, and to severely punish any of their citizens who violates that ban, much as the "land of the free"--the former republic that was known as the United States--once visited severe punishments upon those who sold guns or whiskey to the savages who lived just outside its own sphere of influence. As for their actively interfering with our technological development, in order to suppress any innovations that might give us capabilities similar to their own, that is a difficult issue to evaluate. One problem is that any involvement with us to attempt such interference would risk a transfer of the very kind of technology which it was intended to prevent. A Roswell type crash, for example, with the local gang of thugs ("government") seizing the wreckage and mounting a massive effort to reverse-engineer the technology, would be a disaster from their perspective. Thus I would expect that they would keep their distance, if their technology were close enough to our own for us to be able to comprehend it. The danger, of course, is that they overestimate themselves: that they *think* they are so advanced that Earth-based tyrants could never reverse engineer their technology, and they are wrong. In that case, they would treat Earth governments with the kind of indifference which we reserve for wild animals, and we could expect to see them zooming about in our skies like tourists, not worrying too much if an occasional crash places their technology in our hands. But then, much to their surprise, one day they might find themselves confronted by the same murderous tyrants who oppress us. The likely result: an ugly war ending in our extermination. I, for one, hope that the multitudes of reports concerning "flying saucers" and the like are just a byproduct of Earth's prevailing irrationalism, like the supposed bleeding statues of Christ, and other similar nonsense. --Mitchell Jones}*** >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see >http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 08:20:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05740; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:18:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:18:44 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010515095926.00a8b7b8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:56:03 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010514203504.00c28220@postoffice.swbell.net> References: <004501c0dc99$eb82d1a0$8d181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"fE7wt3.0.0P1.IZK0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42555 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles Ford describes de rigueur fashion in Conspiracy & Assaults: >To raid a lab in the daytime I would choose sky blue with neutral grey on >the top. At night a darker blue is more appropriate with a dark lome >top. People do not typically build labs in the wilderness but the dark >lome will work for this as well. . . . >As far as men in black... Dark sand color is much more difficult to see >in your typical city and in a warehouse lot. Of course if you have never >had any assault training you might never have noticed this. . . . Come to think of it I have not had any assault training, but the part about building labs in the wilderness set me to thinking about the places where people actually do research, mainly at universities. Dark sand color would work well in this ambience. Or you could send in a team of men dressed in bathing suits with dayglo orange bathing caps, carrying ping-pong paddles. I saw a middle-aged fellow dressed like that wandering around the Hokkaido U. campus. People might notice if your team started carrying out large loads of equipment, but they would probably not say anything despite the notices pinned up in the hallways: "Report thieves! Do not leave personal belongings unattended!" I carried power supplies and computers past the guard at the front gate, but he never challenged me, presumably because I have the generic look of someone who belongs on a college campus: the dazed expression, the uncombed hair, the Wall Mart fashion statement complete with dress shoes cut by steel bicycle pedals. An assault team dressed like me would not need to remove equipment or files, they could simply take up residence in the lab and show up every day to work, and no one would notice. They might even make important contributions to the field, and publish in ICCF-9. The thing about genuine ground-breaking research is that no one notices it until years later. Because it is revolutionary, it is met with blank stares and incomprehension, not excitement. It is unimportant to be point of being invisible, and quite safe from marauding Assault Teams. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 08:26:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA11631; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:25:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:25:40 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010515111057.02908c78@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:25:37 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC "I.Q." fashion statement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA11561 Resent-Message-ID: <"c6b8g1.0.fr2.qfK0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42556 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote"I have the generic look of someone who belongs on a college campusthe dazed expression, the uncombed hair, the Wall Mart fashion statement complete with dress shoes cut by steel bicycle pedals. . . ." This brings to mind a charming little 1994 movie called "I.Q." in which Walter Matthau played Albert Einstein. In one scene Einstein, Gödel and Podolsky dress an automobile mechanic as an academic scientist circa 1950, with a necktie as a belt and other inimitable touches. That alone was worse the price of admission. The part where Einstein describes buying an ice cream cone when he first arrived at Princeton is historically correct. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 09:31:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA30458; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:22:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:22:26 -0700 Message-ID: <002e01c0dd50$b31824c0$d6181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:07:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"3XTTc.0.nR7.1VL0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42557 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wind power and photovoltaics only work when windy or sunny. These devices work 24 hrs a day and no moving parts. Half of a waffle iron size puts out 1200 watts. National Security stuff. although no one be it Fedaral Marshalls, Swat Teams, CIA ever told the inventors why. One your are targeted it is difficult. To be targeted you have to have revolutionary technology. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell Jones To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Monday, May 14, 2001 11:49 PM Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >>In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 May 2001 16:52:51 -0400: >>[snip] >>>elsewhere, yet it can't stop wind power. So why doesn't The Conspiracy take >>>effective steps to close down the industry? Is wind power too big already? >>>Okay, why didn't The Conspiracy crush it back in 1985 when wind had few >>>supporters and only millions, instead of billions, in income. >>[snip] >>Because it isn't just the replacement of the fossil fuel industry that >>is considered a "problem". It's the fact(?) that ZPE based devices >>relate to anti-gravity, and the peaceful races in the galaxy don't want >>belligerent xenophobic warmongering Earthlings bothering them. > >***{Peace is only possible when governments are prohibited from violating >property rights--which means: when they are structured as constitutionally >limited republics similar to the original United States government. >However, no present day Earth government is limited in that way. Such >constitutions as still exist are *dead letter*, being accorded lip service >as they repose in glass cases, while being utterly ignored in actual >day-to-day governmental practice. The result is a war of all against all >within each society, as ever-fluctuating coalitions of pressure groups come >together, plunder the victims of the day, then dissipate and, on subsequent >days, become victims themselves--with each act of legalized plunder being, >of course, "in the public interest." And, naturally, the same grotesque >governments that foment internal strife foment it externally as well, with >dozens of wars, with accompanying slaughter, being underway at any given >time. > >Clearly, any advanced alien civilization which is aware of the sickening >regimes that pollute this murderous globe would be guaranteed to look with >extreme trepidation upon the possibility that they might move into space in >force, bearing weapons of mass destruction and having a propulsion >technology adequate to deliver them to offworld targets. Result: any such >civilization in our vicinity is guaranteed to absolutely prohibit trade >with us, and to severely punish any of their citizens who violates that >ban, much as the "land of the free"--the former republic that was known as >the United States--once visited severe punishments upon those who sold guns >or whiskey to the savages who lived just outside its own sphere of >influence. > >As for their actively interfering with our technological development, in >order to suppress any innovations that might give us capabilities similar >to their own, that is a difficult issue to evaluate. One problem is that >any involvement with us to attempt such interference would risk a transfer >of the very kind of technology which it was intended to prevent. A Roswell >type crash, for example, with the local gang of thugs ("government") >seizing the wreckage and mounting a massive effort to reverse-engineer the >technology, would be a disaster from their perspective. Thus I would expect >that they would keep their distance, if their technology were close enough >to our own for us to be able to comprehend it. > >The danger, of course, is that they overestimate themselves: that they >*think* they are so advanced that Earth-based tyrants could never reverse >engineer their technology, and they are wrong. In that case, they would >treat Earth governments with the kind of indifference which we reserve for >wild animals, and we could expect to see them zooming about in our skies >like tourists, not worrying too much if an occasional crash places their >technology in our hands. But then, much to their surprise, one day they >might find themselves confronted by the same murderous tyrants who oppress >us. The likely result: an ugly war ending in our extermination. > >I, for one, hope that the multitudes of reports concerning "flying saucers" >and the like are just a byproduct of Earth's prevailing irrationalism, like >the supposed bleeding statues of Christ, and other similar nonsense. > >--Mitchell Jones}*** > >>Regards, >> >>Robin van Spaandonk >> >>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >>New model hydrogen atom see >>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > >________________ >Quote of the month: > >"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can >be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 09:37:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA22305; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:34:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:34:30 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:34:45 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Fwd: [svpvril] Catalytic Water Separation Splits H2O into Hydrogen and Oxygen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"oc3uZ2.0.HS5.LgL0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42558 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Xeply-To: svpvril@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [svpvril] Catalytic Water Separation Splits H2O into >Hydrogen and Oxygen > >Japanese researchers at the Tokyo Institute of Technology say >they've found a way to split water by using a mechano-catalysts. >The group claims that Cu(I) oxide can catalyze the splitting of >water into hydrogen and oxygen in visible light. > >But, when the lights went out the real fun started! The gases >continued to evolve several hundred hours after the light was turned >off! > >Similar results were seen with other binary oxides such as NiO, >Co3O4, and Fe3O4. The researchers think that the mechanical energy >supplied by stirring is converted to chemical energy by the oxide >catalysts. Not everyone is ready to embrace this theory though. > >Dr. Michael Gratzel of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology >thinks that the electrical charging of the powder (by friction) >followed by local discharge may cause the splitting of the water >molecules. > >Mr. Arthur Nozik of the of the National Renewable Energy Laboratory >in Golden, Colorado proposes that the oxides react directly with the >water through an auto-redox reaction to produce hydrogen and oxygen. > >However it's accomplished, it may be a more cost effective way to >produce hydrogen and oxygen as opposed to traditional electroylosis. > >Regards, > >Zeke >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Free Email at http://mail.euroseek.com > >Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos. > >Email your snail mail address to info@svpvril.com. > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 10:49:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09910; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:43:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:43:26 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.20010515174320.009227ac@pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: estrojny/pop.voyager.net@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:43:20 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Fwd: [svpvril] Catalytic Water Separation Splits H2O into Hydrogen and Oxygen Resent-Message-ID: <"i61jN1.0.gQ2.zgM0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42559 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is there a written description of this experiment? Except for NiO, these "catalysts" have lower oxidation states which can supply energy as they are oxidized to their higher oxidation states. If this energy results in the splitting of water to H2 and O2, the process will stop when all the lower oxidation state material is converted. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 10:54:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA14424; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:51:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:51:36 -0700 Message-ID: <001901c0dd5d$27868c00$b0181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:36:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZIBGa1.0.IX3.doM0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42560 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John Confidential inquiryl How far do you live from Wooster Ohio? A Tesla Guy lives there. Thats where the BH are flying. I forwarded Erics offer. he has all kinds of devices. All is mail is intercepted. I have to go through a 3rd party to communicate. You live near Dayton right? > > > > I have had enjoyment building Tesla tuned transformers and some of >his resonant circuits. We did not have a good grasp on the neutron until >1932. The "baby neutron" or "tiny neutron" or "little neutron" to use the >humor of the particle physics of the time comes from Enrico Fermi.... >and he and his peers keep the tradition alive. > >> I am an experimentalist and as such revel in a technical puzzle. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 11:26:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA31873; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:24:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:24:08 -0700 Message-ID: <001001c0dd61$ae206a20$51181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: "Robin van Spaandonk" Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:08:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Q8oxg1.0.en7.6HN0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42562 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Robin; Have you visited Pine Gap lately? Sounds like you have. Wind and photovoltaics only operate when wind is blowing or sun is shining. Tesla resonance devices work 24 hrs a day, no moving parts to wear out and more cost effective. ie 1/2 waffle iron size puts out 1200 watts. Maybe one of the 2 inventors that independently figured out the technology will take Eric up on the offer. We are working on that. Do you know where Eric lives? Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Monday, May 14, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 May 2001 16:52:51 -0400: >[snip] >>elsewhere, yet it can't stop wind power. So why doesn't The Conspiracy take >>effective steps to close down the industry? Is wind power too big already? >>Okay, why didn't The Conspiracy crush it back in 1985 when wind had few >>supporters and only millions, instead of billions, in income. >[snip] >Because it isn't just the replacement of the fossil fuel industry that >is considered a "problem". It's the fact(?) that ZPE based devices >relate to anti-gravity, and the peaceful races in the galaxy don't want >belligerent xenophobic warmongering Earthlings bothering them. > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 11:26:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA30665; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:21:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:21:58 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010515124156.0095ece0@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:21:50 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing In-Reply-To: <002e01c0dd50$b31824c0$d6181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2UROH1.0.pU7.4FN0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42561 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:07 AM 5/15/01 -0700, you wrote: >Wind power and photovoltaics only work when windy or sunny. These devices >work 24 hrs a day and no moving parts. Half of a waffle iron size puts out >1200 watts. National Security stuff. although no one be it Fedaral >Marshalls, Swat Teams, CIA ever told the inventors why. One your are >targeted it is difficult. To be targeted you have to have revolutionary >technology. Bruce Revolutionary Energy and National Security? You do not understand why? It is simple enough. If you have something that produces infinite energy then you could power A war machine with no fuel cost. However. The Federal Marshall is more interested in actually enforcing Federal law that is on the books. SWAT is Special Weapons And Tactics and these teams are attached to local law enforcement agencies. CIA Central Intelligence Agency is more concerned with what is going on abroad. Intelligence is NOT security. Also there is the FBI which is a law enforcement agency and ATF Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, Texas Rangers and so on. Finally you are missing one agency. NSA National Security Agency. This is a military run organization that is responsible for internal security of the country. These are the people who would be following scientists about and checking into this list. If the NSA chooses to raid a lab that means that many people have fallen down on the job internally to there own organization. Orders to cease operation had not ben issued or followed. They would show up in dull grey vans waring clothing that helps them blend into the background and they would take over a lab and keep position of it by invoking about a dozen Federal possessory regulations. Of course you would not be out on the street to tell about it. 5 Black choppers. This is a security measure. Code or other security materials my be delivered this way. The object is which one of the five to you capture. Each will have for example a set of code books but only one of them is the real one. When carrying secure materials they would more likely travel separately then return home together. This method is not employed by the US military but several of the large corporate operations might do this. This method is probably the place where the movie folks got the idea for the black choppers. Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1@yahoo.com cjford1@swbell.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 11:46:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10554; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:41:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:41:31 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010515133332.02926ad8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:41:18 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Old SF chestnut In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514160753.023b5320@pop.mindspring.com> <004501c0dc99$eb82d1a0$8d181ad8@oemcomputer> <5.0.2.1.2.20010514160753.023b5320@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Us-Hb1.0.qa2.RXN0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42563 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Because it isn't just the replacement of the fossil fuel industry that >is considered a "problem". It's the fact(?) that ZPE based devices >relate to anti-gravity, and the peaceful races in the galaxy don't want >belligerent xenophobic warmongering Earthlings bothering them. Ah, that story line that must have appeared in hundreds of old SF stories, novels, and that dumb movie "Independence Day." It is sort of fun, but ridiculous and utterly unrealistic in my view. Intelligent creatures capable of navigating interstellar space would be thousands of years ahead of human beings. If there was ever a war between us, it would be over in five minutes. They would murmur a single command to a computer and we would dissapear. It would be like the recent war between me and a colony of hornets in my kitchen wall. Also, there is not the slightest chance we could "reverse engineer" their technology, any more than Benjamin Franklin could reverse engineer a Pentium computer. His instruments could not even see the components, much less reproduce them. (The best 18th century microscopes had 2 micron resolution, compared to the 0.18 micron scale Pentium components.) Consider how far he would get trying to understand a uranium oxide thermoelectric generator, a large fission power reactor, or a television, and what would happen to him if he monkeyed with these things. See Clarke's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." We would have no idea how how to operate alien equipment. It would probably not respond to our language or brainwaves, and it is hardly likely to be controlled by any other means. If we tried to cut it apart, it would probably object and force us to stop. Does anyone doubt that future machines will all be imbued with at least as much intelligence as small animals? In one or two human generations of normal progress, nations gain an overwhelming military advantage. It has been said that if General Washington had been given a single machine gun he could have won the Revolutionary War in two weeks. Suppose in 1914 the British had been given 50 Spitfires and 100 tanks commanded by officers trained in WWII maneuvers. With a 20-year advantage in technology they would have been nearly invicible, and the First World War would have been over in a few months. That may be a slight exaggeration, but not by much. You can see this in actual examples of wars between technologically mismatched civilizations, such as the Opium Wars and the battle of Manila Bay, in which the U.S. did not suffer a single casualty and the Spanish fleet was wiped out. Many historians consider the German blitzkrieg a match between 1940 gasoline motor technology versus 1920 French artillery. Interstellar space-faring races are said to be visiting earth. Most of the time they evade our radar, but not always. This seems very unlikely. If they know how to evade radar, surely they can do it always. Given enough time, machines always develop all-but-perfect reliability. Radar evasion would malfunction about as often as your hand calculator comes up with an arithmatic error. Also, their computers would not be running Windows 95, and they would not be susceptible to our computer viruses, contrary to the movie "Independence Day." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 12:35:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05540; Tue, 15 May 2001 12:28:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:28:20 -0700 Message-ID: <011301c0dd6c$8ee124a0$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <1.5.4.32.20010515174320.009227ac@pop3.norton.antivirus> Subject: Re: Fwd: [svpvril] Catalytic Water Separation Splits H2O into Hydrogen and Oxygen Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:24:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"_eLDb3.0.DM1.IDO0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42564 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edwin Strojny" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 12:43 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: [svpvril] Catalytic Water Separation Splits H2O into Hydrogen and Oxygen Ed Strojny wrote: > Is there a written description of this experiment? Except for NiO, these > "catalysts" have lower oxidation states which can supply energy as they are > oxidized to their higher oxidation states. If this energy results in the > splitting of water to H2 and O2, the process will stop when all the lower > oxidation state material is converted. Not so fast there Ed. :-) Breaking the H-OH bond requires 5.17 eV of energy. Breaking the O-H bond requires 4.44 eV of energy. Making the H-H bond releases 4.53 eV of energy. Making the O-O bond releases 5.17 eV of energy. So: 2 H-O-H + 19.22 eV ---> 2 H-H + O-O + 14.23 eV Thus 19.22 eV - 14.24 eV = 2.5 eV net energy input per H2O molecule split into it's atoms. The wavelength of a 2.5 eV photon = 12,500/2.5 = 5,000 angstroms which is the peak of the photosynthesis curve and also the visibility curve. Those oxides are not chlorophyll, but they can do the "Hill Reaction" with the ability of water to absorb/store light across the spectrum of ~1.0 eV to > 2.5 eV. IOW, aquatic creatures might be getting a lot of their O2 from Sunlight absorbed in the water. Regards, Frederick > > Ed Strojny > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 12:52:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15469; Tue, 15 May 2001 12:48:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:48:55 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:55:14 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Charles Ford cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Waffle .......pters prove nothing In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010515124156.0095ece0@postoffice.swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"OahQC.0.cn3.cWO0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42566 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., Who posted about the 1,200 watts from a waffle iron? On Tue, 15 May 2001, Charles Ford wrote: > At 08:07 AM 5/15/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Wind power and photovoltaics only work when windy or sunny. These devices > >work 24 hrs a day and no moving parts. Half of a waffle iron size puts out > >1200 watts. National Security stuff. although no one be it Fedaral > >Marshalls, Swat Teams, CIA ever told the inventors why. One your are > >targeted it is difficult. To be targeted you have to have revolutionary > >technology. Bruce > > Revolutionary Energy and National Security? > > You do not understand why? It is simple enough. If you have something > that produces infinite energy then you could power A war machine with no > fuel cost. > > However. > > The Federal Marshall is more interested in actually enforcing Federal law > that is on the books. SWAT is Special Weapons And Tactics and these teams > are attached to local law enforcement agencies. CIA Central Intelligence > Agency is more concerned with what is going on abroad. Intelligence is NOT > security. Also there is the FBI which is a law enforcement agency and ATF > Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, Texas Rangers and so on. > > Finally you are missing one agency. NSA National Security Agency. This > is a military run organization that is responsible for internal security of > the country. These are the people who would be following scientists about > and checking into this list. If the NSA chooses to raid a lab that means > that many people have fallen down on the job internally to there own > organization. Orders to cease operation had not ben issued or followed. > > They would show up in dull grey vans waring clothing that helps them blend > into the background and they would take over a lab and keep position of it > by invoking about a dozen Federal possessory regulations. Of course you > would not be out on the street to tell about it. > > 5 Black choppers. This is a security measure. Code or other security > materials my be delivered this way. The object is which one of the five to > you capture. Each will have for example a set of code books but only one of > them is the real one. When carrying secure materials they would more > likely travel separately then return home together. This method is not > employed by the US military but several of the large corporate operations > might do this. > > This method is probably the place where the movie folks got the idea for > the black choppers. > Charlie Ford > > KC5-OWZ > cjford1@yahoo.com > cjford1@swbell.net > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 12:54:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA14118; Tue, 15 May 2001 12:45:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:45:58 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:52:15 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Bruce Meland cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies In-Reply-To: <001901c0dd5d$27868c00$b0181ad8@oemcomputer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"cgVC-.0.RS3.rTO0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42565 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Bruce, I am 20 miles from Dayton, 55 from Columbus. John On Tue, 15 May 2001, Bruce Meland wrote: > Hi John Confidential inquiryl How far do you live from Wooster Ohio? A Tesla > Guy lives there. Thats where the BH are flying. I forwarded Erics offer. he > has all kinds of devices. All is mail is intercepted. I have to go through a > 3rd party to communicate. You live near Dayton right? > > > > > > > > > I have had enjoyment building Tesla tuned transformers and some of > >his resonant circuits. We did not have a good grasp on the neutron until > >1932. The "baby neutron" or "tiny neutron" or "little neutron" to use the > >humor of the particle physics of the time comes from Enrico Fermi.... > >and he and his peers keep the tradition alive. > > > >> I am an experimentalist and as such revel in a technical puzzle. > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 13:25:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA00811; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:19:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:19:25 -0700 Message-ID: <015101c0dd73$b29ec120$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Fwd: [svpvril] Catalytic Water Separation Splits H2O into Hydrogen and Oxygen Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:17:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"h7a0a3.0.XC.CzO0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42567 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > But, when the lights went out the real fun started! >The gases continued to evolve several hundred hours after the light was turned off! > > Similar results were seen with other binary oxides such as NiO, Co3O4, and Fe3O4. > Sounds a lot like "Heat After Death" a CF/OU with Ni cathode electrolysis cells. Is Ed Storms' "NAS" a NiO patch? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 13:26:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04232; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:25:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:25:25 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514123427.023aff68@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010514123427.023aff68@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:31:26 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Yucca Mountain Project statement seems reasonable Resent-Message-ID: <"OnnIS.0.v11.q2P0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42568 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 May 2001 12:43:41 -0400: > >>The DoE claims that the rock formations and water table at Yucca are >>sufficient to "keep the waste sufficiently isolated for thousands of years >>so that the radioactive material will pose about the same risk or less risk >>of health effects to the public as that of unmined uranium ore." I cannot >>judge whether that is true or not, but if is true, it is hard to see how >>anyone can ask for more from a waste disposal method. >[snip] >The problem with this is that the radioisotopes are even considered to >be waste. ***{They are either waste, or they are useful material. If the former, then they have been adequately disposed of; and if the latter, then I suppose they could at some future date be mined. But as a matter of curiosity, what use for them do you have in mind? --MJ}*** >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see >http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 13:39:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11346; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:37:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:37:39 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Air conditioner paradox Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:43:04 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"nmzbr3.0.Cn2.HEP0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42569 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All. In the interest of stimulating a little discussion here on Vortex, I relate a passage from a recent Bob Pease column which ought to warm the hearts of vortexians. He's dicussing the problem of heating his home, and decides to try putting in an air conditioner "backwards" with the cold air side facing out.... ************************************************************************** If I apply 1 kW to any resistive space heater, I can't get more than 1 kW of heat into my house. If I generate 1 BTU/second, I only generate 1055 W. If I burn one "therm" of gas in an efficient furnace, I may get better than 90% of those 100,000 BTUs to warm my house. But if I run 1 kW-hour of electric power into my backwards air conditioner, I can get 3 or 4 kW-hours of heat pumped into my house. If the inside air and outside air are only 5°F to 15°F apart, I might even get more than a gain of five--to be determined. If the outside temperature is more than 30°F or 40°F below the house's temp, the gain still may be better than two! This gain might vary a lot, depending on the model or type of the air conditioner. Still, when the cost of energy gets ridiculous, spending $200 for a good air conditioner could be a good investment. More shortly--in two weeks. *************************************************************************** Anyone care to comment on this? Other than the obvious consideration that you'd have to modify the thermostat to bring it to the other side of the A/C... K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 14:13:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28285; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:09:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:09:02 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010515165525.02926ad8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:08:32 -0400 To: , "Vortex" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"-8tMj1.0.ov6.khP0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42570 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >In the interest of stimulating a little discussion here on Vortex, I relate >a passage from a recent Bob Pease column which ought to warm the hearts >of vortexians. Tell Mr. Pease to go to any library or Internet connected computer and look up "heat pump." He will see that heat pumps do not work with a 40 deg F temperature difference. If he lives in a cold climate, he might investigate geothermal heat pumps. Also you might mention that installing an air conditioner backwards as a makeshift heat pump will not work well. It will soon destroy the equipment. A DoE web site describes a heat-pump water heater with a COP of 300%, making it almost, but not quite, as fuel efficient as a gas-fired water heater. I don't see the point. http://www.pnl.gov/fta/3_res.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 14:20:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32672; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:17:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:17:34 -0700 Message-ID: <016701c0dd7b$d57367c0$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:15:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"_hf-i2.0.L-7.jpP0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42571 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 3:43 PM Subject: Air conditioner paradox They call them Heat Pumps Keith. C.O.P. Cooling: Tc/(Th-Tc) C.O.P Heating: Th/(Th-Tc) Add 460 to the deg F reading of Tc (Cold Temp) and Th (Hot Temp) to get it in Absolute Rankine Temp (R). At 0 F (Tc outside) 460 R and 60 F (Th inside) 520 R: 460/(520-460) C.O.P. = 7.66 But, with air to air compressor and heat transfer inefficiencies you might get a C.O.P. of about 3.0 which per kw (3413 Btu) is ~ 10,000 Btu heating, which is about what the power company invested in gas, coal, or nuclear to generate that 1.0 kw. Add that to the transmission/distribution losses and switch to gas heating, because at $0.10/kw-hr you're paying $1.00 per therm which is a lot more than a $0.20/therm gas cost. Regards, Frederick > Hi All. > > In the interest of stimulating a little discussion here on Vortex, I relate > a passage from a recent Bob Pease column which ought to warm the hearts > of vortexians. > > He's dicussing the problem of heating his home, and decides to try > putting in an air conditioner "backwards" with the cold air side > facing out.... > > ************************************************************************** > If I apply 1 kW to any resistive space heater, > I can't get more than 1 kW of heat into my house. > If I generate 1 BTU/second, I only generate > 1055 W. If I burn one "therm" of gas in an efficient > furnace, I may get better than 90% of those 100,000 BTUs > to warm my house. But if I run 1 kW-hour of electric power > into my backwards air conditioner, I can get 3 or 4 kW-hours > of heat pumped into my house. If the inside > air and outside air are only 5°F to 15°F apart, > I might even get more than a gain of five--to be determined. > If the outside temperature is more than 30°F or 40°F below the > house's temp, the gain still may be better than two! > This gain might vary a lot, depending on the model or > type of the air conditioner. Still, when the cost of energy > gets ridiculous, spending $200 for a good air conditioner could be a good > investment. More shortly--in two weeks. > *************************************************************************** > > Anyone care to comment on this? Other than the obvious consideration > that you'd have to modify the thermostat to bring it to the other side > of the A/C... > > K. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 14:36:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA08272; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:33:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:33:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3B01A0CF.BB67EF85@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:34:07 -0400 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox References: <016701c0dd7b$d57367c0$aeb4bfa8@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RyDnO.0.312.C2Q0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42572 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > Add > that to the transmission/distribution losses and switch to gas heating, because at > $0.10/kw-hr you're paying $1.00 per therm which is a lot more than a $0.20/therm gas > cost. Er, uh, Fred, thanks to deregulation in the gas industry, we paid $0.90 to $1.30 per therm for natural gas here in Georgia last winter. My last bill was for $1.09 per therm. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 14:39:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10828; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:37:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:37:32 -0700 Message-ID: <017e01c0dd7e$9f80a580$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010515165525.02926ad8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:35:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"gQcxn3.0.6f2.R6Q0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42573 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; "Vortex" Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 4:08 PM Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox Jed wrote: > > Tell Mr. Pease to go to any library or Internet connected computer and look > up "heat pump." He will see that heat pumps do not work with a 40 deg F > temperature difference. The hell they don't. A refrigerator/freezer works with a 120 deg F temperature differential. But, it Costs you. :-) If he lives in a cold climate, he might investigate > geothermal heat pumps. In some industries (and countries) they circulate the waste heat cooling water and pull the heat out of it with heat pumps if it is below comfort temperature. >Also you might mention that installing an air > conditioner backwards as a makeshift heat pump will not work well. It will > soon destroy the equipment. Nope. Just your wallet. > > A DoE web site describes a heat-pump water heater with a COP of 300%, > making it almost, but not quite, as fuel efficient as a gas-fired water > heater. On oil platforms they have been "Heat Looping" sea water in heat pumps to distill it, for years. The C.O.P. is better than 300. I don't see the point. Figures. :-) > > http://www.pnl.gov/fta/3_res.htm Regards, Frederick > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 14:42:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12717; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:40:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:40:17 -0700 Message-ID: <018601c0dd7e$dbf8b020$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <016701c0dd7b$d57367c0$aeb4bfa8@computer> <3B01A0CF.BB67EF85@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:37:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"Hbq6M1.0.U63.09Q0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42574 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 4:34 PM Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox Wow! You're really moving on up. :-) Fred > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > Add > > that to the transmission/distribution losses and switch to gas heating, because at > > $0.10/kw-hr you're paying $1.00 per therm which is a lot more than a $0.20/therm gas > > cost. > > Er, uh, Fred, thanks to deregulation in the gas industry, we paid > $0.90 to $1.30 per therm for natural gas here in Georgia last > winter. My last bill was for $1.09 per therm. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 15:00:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA22779; Tue, 15 May 2001 14:58:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:58:30 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Air conditioner paradox Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:03:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <016701c0dd7b$d57367c0$aeb4bfa8@computer> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"ZzMeR.0.mZ5.3QQ0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42575 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Fred and Jed. To answer Jed's question, and Freds analysis... I was going thru my bills last month and was shocked at how energy prices were changing. Here in our brownstone we have a gas fired heater, and ye olde heating bill was pretty huge this winter, despite the mildness. I'm currently paying $.75 per therm here, Fred. Getting real close to your $1.00 mark, and that at a COP only half the theoretical potential. I'm sure not EVERY air-conditioner would be good for this, but it would be interesting to see what's out there. Jed, you've demonstrated a working knowledge of web searching. Check out the latest consumer grade a/c's for us(smile). K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 4:16 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 3:43 PM Subject: Air conditioner paradox They call them Heat Pumps Keith. C.O.P. Cooling: Tc/(Th-Tc) C.O.P Heating: Th/(Th-Tc) Add 460 to the deg F reading of Tc (Cold Temp) and Th (Hot Temp) to get it in Absolute Rankine Temp (R). At 0 F (Tc outside) 460 R and 60 F (Th inside) 520 R: 460/(520-460) C.O.P. = 7.66 But, with air to air compressor and heat transfer inefficiencies you might get a C.O.P. of about 3.0 which per kw (3413 Btu) is ~ 10,000 Btu heating, which is about what the power company invested in gas, coal, or nuclear to generate that 1.0 kw. Add that to the transmission/distribution losses and switch to gas heating, because at $0.10/kw-hr you're paying $1.00 per therm which is a lot more than a $0.20/therm gas cost. Regards, Frederick > Hi All. > > In the interest of stimulating a little discussion here on Vortex, I relate > a passage from a recent Bob Pease column which ought to warm the hearts > of vortexians. > > He's dicussing the problem of heating his home, and decides to try > putting in an air conditioner "backwards" with the cold air side > facing out.... > > ************************************************************************** > If I apply 1 kW to any resistive space heater, > I can't get more than 1 kW of heat into my house. > If I generate 1 BTU/second, I only generate > 1055 W. If I burn one "therm" of gas in an efficient > furnace, I may get better than 90% of those 100,000 BTUs > to warm my house. But if I run 1 kW-hour of electric power > into my backwards air conditioner, I can get 3 or 4 kW-hours > of heat pumped into my house. If the inside > air and outside air are only 5°F to 15°F apart, > I might even get more than a gain of five--to be determined. > If the outside temperature is more than 30°F or 40°F below the > house's temp, the gain still may be better than two! > This gain might vary a lot, depending on the model or > type of the air conditioner. Still, when the cost of energy > gets ridiculous, spending $200 for a good air conditioner could be a good > investment. More shortly--in two weeks. > *************************************************************************** > > Anyone care to comment on this? Other than the obvious consideration > that you'd have to modify the thermostat to bring it to the other side > of the A/C... > > K. > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 15:30:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA02487; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:29:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:29:12 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010515181737.02908c78@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:28:20 -0400 To: , From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Air conditioner paradox In-Reply-To: References: <016701c0dd7b$d57367c0$aeb4bfa8@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"VEz5t1.0.lc.tsQ0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42576 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >I'm sure not EVERY >air-conditioner would be good for this, but it would >be interesting to see what's out there. . . . No, seriously. NO air conditioner would be good for this. You would only destroy the machine. Ordinary air conditioners are not engineered to be dual-mode heat pumps for use in winter. Heat pumps are, of course. > Jed, you've >demonstrated a working knowledge of web searching. >Check out the latest consumer grade a/c's for us(smile). I don't have to search for energy info. I have it bookmarked. Modern heat pump COPs in mild climates run 200 to 300%. Geothermal units run as high as 400 to 500% -- or so the manufacturers say. Our Veep Cheney has a new one installed in his official residence. He is reportedly happy with it, so you wonder why he is trying to gut U.S. spending on efficiency. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 15:39:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06140; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:37:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:37:53 -0700 Message-ID: <01a001c0dd87$06a0d160$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:34:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"gjLq33.0.AV1.--Q0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42577 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 5:03 PM Subject: RE: Air conditioner paradox Keith wrote: > > To answer Jed's question, and Freds analysis... > > I was going thru my bills last month and was shocked > at how energy prices were changing. Here in our brownstone > we have a gas fired heater, and ye olde heating bill > was pretty huge this winter, despite the mildness. > I'm currently paying $.75 per therm here, Fred. Getting > real close to your $1.00 mark, and that at a COP only > half the theoretical potential. I'm sure not EVERY > air-conditioner would be good for this, but it would > be interesting to see what's out there. Water to Air Heat Pumps are a standard item, Keith. You might consider getting a 5 ton (60,000 btu/hr) unit and freezing your waste water into 5 ton blocks of ice :-) Works great if you have a septic tank, then the next summer hit the reversing valve. Regards, Frederick > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 4:16 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keith Nagel" > To: "Vortex" > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 3:43 PM > Subject: Air conditioner paradox > > They call them Heat Pumps Keith. > > C.O.P. Cooling: Tc/(Th-Tc) > > C.O.P Heating: Th/(Th-Tc) > > Add 460 to the deg F reading of Tc (Cold Temp) > and Th (Hot Temp) to get it in Absolute Rankine Temp (R). > > At 0 F (Tc outside) 460 R and 60 F (Th inside) 520 R: > > 460/(520-460) C.O.P. = 7.66 > > But, with air to air compressor and heat transfer inefficiencies you might > get a > C.O.P. of about 3.0 which per kw (3413 Btu) is ~ 10,000 Btu heating, which > is about > what the power company invested in gas, coal, or nuclear to generate that > 1.0 kw. Add > that to the transmission/distribution losses and switch to gas heating, > because at > $0.10/kw-hr you're paying $1.00 per therm which is a lot more than a > $0.20/therm gas > cost. > > Regards, Frederick > > > > Hi All. > > > > In the interest of stimulating a little discussion here on Vortex, I > relate > > a passage from a recent Bob Pease column which ought to warm the hearts > > of vortexians. > > > > He's dicussing the problem of heating his home, and decides to try > > putting in an air conditioner "backwards" with the cold air side > > facing out.... > > > > ************************************************************************** > > If I apply 1 kW to any resistive space heater, > > I can't get more than 1 kW of heat into my house. > > If I generate 1 BTU/second, I only generate > > 1055 W. If I burn one "therm" of gas in an efficient > > furnace, I may get better than 90% of those 100,000 BTUs > > to warm my house. But if I run 1 kW-hour of electric power > > into my backwards air conditioner, I can get 3 or 4 kW-hours > > of heat pumped into my house. If the inside > > air and outside air are only 5°F to 15°F apart, > > I might even get more than a gain of five--to be determined. > > If the outside temperature is more than 30°F or 40°F below the > > house's temp, the gain still may be better than two! > > This gain might vary a lot, depending on the model or > > type of the air conditioner. Still, when the cost of energy > > gets ridiculous, spending $200 for a good air conditioner could be a good > > investment. More shortly--in two weeks. > > > *************************************************************************** > > > > Anyone care to comment on this? Other than the obvious consideration > > that you'd have to modify the thermostat to bring it to the other side > > of the A/C... > > > > K. > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 15:55:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA13339; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:53:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:53:32 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Jed Rothwell" Cc: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Air conditioner paradox Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:58:43 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010515181737.02908c78@pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"DgKOP3.0.bF3.ZDR0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42578 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi. Jed Writes: >No, seriously. NO air conditioner would be good for this. You would only >destroy the machine. Ordinary air conditioners are not engineered to be >dual-mode heat pumps for use in winter. Heat pumps are, of course. So, how are they different? >I don't have to search for energy info. I have it bookmarked. Modern heat >pump COPs in mild climates run 200 to 300%. Geothermal units run as high as >400 to 500% -- or so the manufacturers say. Our Veep Cheney has a new one >installed in his official residence. He is reportedly happy with it, so you >wonder why he is trying to gut U.S. spending on efficiency. To support "our Blessed way of life", or so Bush sez. I think one good thing is coming out of this; the last time I priced energy options the primary impediment to the alt. stuff was cost. Like taxing the hell out of cigarettes, now it would be much easier to sell wind/hydro/solar/whatever. Of course this situation is artificial so where will it end up? K. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 16:34:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA31749; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:33:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:33:15 -0700 Message-ID: <01cc01c0dd8e$c50e09e0$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:31:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0DD64.D3BCAE80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"9js_8.0.vl7.woR0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42579 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0DD64.D3BCAE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How busy is your water main,Keith? This is sort of a geothermal Water to Air Heat Pump. http://www.demarcoenergy.com/diagrams.htm Might be cheaper than trenching to lay a geothermal system. The city might not like what you do to the water temperature though. Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0DD64.D3BCAE80 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Municipal Water Source Heat Pump - Demarco Energy Diagrams.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Municipal Water Source Heat Pump - Demarco Energy Diagrams.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.demarcoenergy.com/diagrams.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.demarcoenergy.com/diagrams.htm Modified=C0477EEC8DDDC0019C ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0DD64.D3BCAE80-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 18:27:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA09294; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:23:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:23:41 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:23:19 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01c0dda6$cac52040$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514101902.023b5320@pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"PnwtI2.0.wG2.QQT0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42580 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You cannot use the Hiroshima calculations to accurately talk about power generation or radio nuclide generation. You can talk about one or the other. A nuclear bomb is not a reactor generation electricity. Bombs don't have control rods and containment vessels, They go Boom. They make use of Fast Neutrons Power plants don't go boom, they make power. They make use of Slow Neutrons. Bombs consume less than one percent of their fuel into making energy, so the rest of the material is scattered over a vast area, and the fast neutrons cause other unrelated neutrons to contaminate non radioactive matter into radioactive. Bombs Cannot be contained, only dispersed and diluted till the most harmful short term radionucleides deterioriate. Nuclear fuel when used contains also radioactive -non- fuel components, like Cadmium fuel cladding and other things. So, PWR have to store the used fuel rods on site, until the most short term radioactive by products no longer exist. Which is Why Nuclear power is safe. 1. All long term radionuclieds can be recycled and reused or stored safely. Only your politicians and Press make it seem dangerous. 2. All Short term radionucleides that are highly radioactive, Only exist for a short time. They decay .. Name one ounce of CO2 emissions or Sulfur Dioxide emissions that go away by them selves. Matthew Rogers Prove it.. Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell@infinite-energy.com] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 7:38 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Mitchell Jones wrote: >It would appear, therefore, that my original number was too high by a >factor of roughly 15x10^6/102000 = 147, not due to a miscalculation, but >due to faded numbers in a table. Good. Glad you got that straightened out. >The question, therefore, is this: does the new number still support the >conclusion that nuclear power is vastly safer than any of the alternatives, >or not? In other words, is the likelihood that roughly 102,000 times as >many workers are exposed to accidents . . . Nope. The number of workers per MW is roughly the same, as I pointed out in an earlier message. A coal miner extracts 50,000 tons per year, a uranium miner extracts a few thousand pounds, and it takes many more people to prepare the uranium fuel. In the short term, the coal kills many more customers (citizens, ordinary folks) than the uranium, but in the long term we don't know yet. A single serious melt down accident in a populated area might even up the score, by releasing about as much radioactive material as 1000 Hiroshima bombs. See: http://www.ratical.org/radiation/CNR/fission.txt >And, of course, since a breeder program would use the U-238 to produce >Pu-239, thereby turning *all* of the uranium into nuclear fuel, and since >the percentage abundance of U-238 in uranite is 139 times as great as that >of U-235, the multiple for a breeder program the goes back up to about 15 >million to 1 again--i.e., when Pu-239 fired nuclear furnaces are used. Yes, and this would be a fine idea if you don't mind paying 10 to 40 times more for electricity. If cost and liability are no issue, and you favor of a "vitually socialist" approach (Heritage Foundation), then nuclear power is for you. I myself am a capitalist. I do not think the government should exempt one industry from legal responsibilities that all other industries must bear. Nuclear power would not survive in a free market, so I think it is best to let it die, gradually. It is dying, despite huge subsidies and 60 years of government pampering. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 19:22:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA31693; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:18:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:18:55 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Waffle .......pters prove nothing Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:18:36 -0700 Message-ID: <002901c0ddae$83e736b0$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"IyKal3.0.4l7.EEU0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42581 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, "Bruce Meland" wrote this post and others. This guy is a idiot. He tried to get me to give him money and ask for personal information. I stopped correspondence with this guy . Matthew Rogers Prove it.. Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman@antioch-college.edu] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 12:55 PM To: Charles Ford Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Waffle .......pters prove nothing Dear Vo., Who posted about the 1,200 watts from a waffle iron? On Tue, 15 May 2001, Charles Ford wrote: > At 08:07 AM 5/15/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Wind power and photovoltaics only work when windy or sunny. These devices > >work 24 hrs a day and no moving parts. Half of a waffle iron size puts out > >1200 watts. National Security stuff. although no one be it Fedaral > >Marshalls, Swat Teams, CIA ever told the inventors why. One your are > >targeted it is difficult. To be targeted you have to have revolutionary > >technology. Bruce > > Revolutionary Energy and National Security? > > You do not understand why? It is simple enough. If you have something > that produces infinite energy then you could power A war machine with no > fuel cost. > > However. > > The Federal Marshall is more interested in actually enforcing Federal law > that is on the books. SWAT is Special Weapons And Tactics and these teams > are attached to local law enforcement agencies. CIA Central Intelligence > Agency is more concerned with what is going on abroad. Intelligence is NOT > security. Also there is the FBI which is a law enforcement agency and ATF > Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, Texas Rangers and so on. > > Finally you are missing one agency. NSA National Security Agency. This > is a military run organization that is responsible for internal security of > the country. These are the people who would be following scientists about > and checking into this list. If the NSA chooses to raid a lab that means > that many people have fallen down on the job internally to there own > organization. Orders to cease operation had not ben issued or followed. > > They would show up in dull grey vans waring clothing that helps them blend > into the background and they would take over a lab and keep position of it > by invoking about a dozen Federal possessory regulations. Of course you > would not be out on the street to tell about it. > > 5 Black choppers. This is a security measure. Code or other security > materials my be delivered this way. The object is which one of the five to > you capture. Each will have for example a set of code books but only one of > them is the real one. When carrying secure materials they would more > likely travel separately then return home together. This method is not > employed by the US military but several of the large corporate operations > might do this. > > This method is probably the place where the movie folks got the idea for > the black choppers. > Charlie Ford > > KC5-OWZ > cjford1@yahoo.com > cjford1@swbell.net > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 19:24:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA00785; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:23:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:23:18 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Greater electricity demand, Waisting energy is an american ritual?. Electric cars that people won't buy! and finally dirty stinking coal smoke in my eyes. Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:22:57 -0700 Message-ID: <002a01c0ddaf$1f981610$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010511213154.00c89b00@postoffice.swbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"gQu-11.0.7C.LIU0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42582 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How can You WASTE electricity. You can technically only USE it. To waste it means you used it to no useful purpose. You can only Use a consumable. Since electricity is a consumable, you pay for what you use, unless you invest in a home solarvoltaic battery system, therefore after you buy it , its free. You cannot waste what you use. Matthew Rogers Prove it.. Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 7:53 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Greater electricity demand, Waisting energy is an american ritual?. Electric cars that people won't buy! and finally dirty stinking coal smoke in my eyes. Folks: This is getting ridiculous. I am sure that we all agree that wasting the stuff is a bad practice. The thing to do is place pressure on the source of the waste. That is to pressure ourselves. Every minuet of every day you choose to use energy and waste energy. You choose not to replace that incandescent with something more efficient. You choose to leave the bathroom light on all night. You choose to stand in the refrigerator door deciding what you want to eat. You choose 78F rather then 82F on your AC thermostat. The list goes on and on. I am guilty also. When I stand in the electrical department at Home Depot I choose to purchase a light bulb that uses a primitive process to provide a small amount of light at a cost of about 100W of heat A process that is less then 2% efficient. I choose to light the entire garage rather then my workspace. What we probably should be discussion is how to change these bad habits. Further discussion might include how to provide the energy directly to the need at as close to 100% efficiency as possible. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 19:32:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA03724; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:29:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:29:48 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:29:30 -0700 Message-ID: <002b01c0ddb0$0a19a7d0$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"AcIjx3.0.5w.SOU0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42583 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is another example of someone giving out personal information to a person who cannot spell. Matthew Rogers Prove it.. Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman@antioch-college.edu] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 12:52 PM To: Bruce Meland Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Dear Bruce, I am 20 miles from Dayton, 55 from Columbus. John On Tue, 15 May 2001, Bruce Meland wrote: > Hi John Confidential inquiryl How far do you live from Wooster Ohio? A Tesla > Guy lives there. Thats where the BH are flying. I forwarded Erics offer. he > has all kinds of devices. All is mail is intercepted. I have to go through a > 3rd party to communicate. You live near Dayton right? > > > > > > > > > I have had enjoyment building Tesla tuned transformers and some of > >his resonant circuits. We did not have a good grasp on the neutron until > >1932. The "baby neutron" or "tiny neutron" or "little neutron" to use the > >humor of the particle physics of the time comes from Enrico Fermi.... > >and he and his peers keep the tradition alive. > > > >> I am an experimentalist and as such revel in a technical puzzle. > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 19:46:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA09863; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:44:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:44:13 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010516103949.008689a0@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:39:49 +0800 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: RE: Air conditioner paradox In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010515181737.02908c78@pop.mindspring.com> References: <016701c0dd7b$d57367c0$aeb4bfa8@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"RfV_U2.0.nP2.zbU0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42584 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: >No, seriously. NO air conditioner would be good for this. You would only >destroy the machine. Ordinary air conditioners are not engineered to be >dual-mode heat pumps for use in winter. Heat pumps are, of course. I was of the understanding that _most_ air conditioners were engineered to be dual-mode heat pumps for use in winter. They go by the term "reverse-cycle" and are certainly _very_ common in this country (Australia). I find it hard to believe that similar technology is not available in the USA ? I also of the impression that many refrigerators operate for short periods of time in "reverse-cycle" mode for defrosting. They don't bother with thermostatic control in this mode however, they just go for a fixed length of time to ensure that any ice build up is melted. I'd be interested to be corrected if someone is better informed ? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 19:57:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA15063; Tue, 15 May 2001 19:56:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:56:02 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Old SF chestnut Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:55:20 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514160753.023b5320@pop.mindspring.com> <004501c0dc99$eb82d1a0$8d181ad8@oemcomputer> <5.0.2.1.2.20010514160753.023b5320@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010515133332.02926ad8@pop.mind spring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010515133332.02926ad8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA14984 Resent-Message-ID: <"5jjEq3.0.Fh3.2nU0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42585 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 15 May 2001 14:41:18 -0400: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>Because it isn't just the replacement of the fossil fuel industry that >>is considered a "problem". It's the fact(?) that ZPE based devices >>relate to anti-gravity, and the peaceful races in the galaxy don't want >>belligerent xenophobic warmongering Earthlings bothering them. > >Ah, that story line that must have appeared in hundreds of old SF stories, >novels, and that dumb movie "Independence Day." It is sort of fun, but >ridiculous and utterly unrealistic in my view. Intelligent creatures >capable of navigating interstellar space would be thousands of years ahead >of human beings. If there was ever a war between us, it would be over in >five minutes. They would murmur a single command to a computer and we would >dissapear. It would be like the recent war between me and a colony of >hornets in my kitchen wall. Hornets yes, but how about a colony of ants somewhere under the house, that have discovered your food storage? :) IOW while they may be technically far beyond us, that doesn't necessarily mean that we won't represent nuisance value. And besides, they may not wish to eliminate an intelligent species. There is also the possibility that they are protecting us from ourselves. > >Also, there is not the slightest chance we could "reverse engineer" their >technology, any more than Benjamin Franklin could reverse engineer a >Pentium computer. His instruments could not even see the components, much >less reproduce them. (The best 18th century microscopes had 2 micron >resolution, compared to the 0.18 micron scale Pentium components.) Consider >how far he would get trying to understand a uranium oxide thermoelectric >generator, a large fission power reactor, or a television, and what would >happen to him if he monkeyed with these things. See Clarke's third law: >"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." We >would have no idea how how to operate alien equipment. It would probably >not respond to our language or brainwaves, and it is hardly likely to be >controlled by any other means. This I agree with. >If we tried to cut it apart, it would >probably object and force us to stop. That I doubt. There is no need to imbue an inanimate object with defensive capability, if it's not likely to be attacked during normal use. >Does anyone doubt that future >machines will all be imbued with at least as much intelligence as small >animals? Probably, but self defence would probably only be limited to a warning. Would you want your toaster to jab you while you are trying to repair it? [snip] >as your hand calculator comes up with an arithmatic error. Also, their >computers would not be running Windows 95, and they would not be >susceptible to our computer viruses, contrary to the movie "Independence Day." [snip] I agree, I had to laugh when I saw that too. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 20:13:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA21680; Tue, 15 May 2001 20:12:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 20:12:23 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yucca Mountain Project statement seems reasonable Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:11:56 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514123427.023aff68@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010514123427.023aff68@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA21636 Resent-Message-ID: <"zJdtl1.0.dI5.N0V0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42586 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Tue, 15 May 2001 10:31:26 -0500: [snip] >***{They are either waste, or they are useful material. If the former, then >they have been adequately disposed of; and if the latter, then I suppose >they could at some future date be mined. But as a matter of curiosity, what >use for them do you have in mind? --MJ}*** US4835433. (If it works as claimed). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 20:36:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA32169; Tue, 15 May 2001 20:35:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 20:35:52 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010515221810.00976330@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 22:37:46 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: RE: Air conditioner paradox In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010516103949.008689a0@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010515181737.02908c78@pop.mindspring.com> <016701c0dd7b$d57367c0$aeb4bfa8@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"iTog41.0.Ys7.NMV0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42587 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:39 AM 5/16/01 +0800, you wrote: >Jed wrote: > >No, seriously. NO air conditioner would be good for this. You would only > >destroy the machine. Ordinary air conditioners are not engineered to be > >dual-mode heat pumps for use in winter. Heat pumps are, of course. > >I was of the understanding that _most_ air conditioners were engineered >to be dual-mode heat pumps for use in winter. They go by the term >"reverse-cycle" and are certainly _very_ common in this country >(Australia). I find it hard to believe that similar technology is >not available in the USA ? Heat pumps are commonly available in the US and recommended by most of the electric utility companies. I don't know about Australia but in many parts of the US the summer high temp can be 110+ degrees F and winter low around 10F Unfortunately for the heat pump it turns out to be way way more expensive to use then natural gas in the winter and way more expensive to purchase then a single mode AC unit and an NG furnice. Your average "cheap" AC unit (reversed for winter use) will ice up and ultimately this will destroy the circulation fan motor or crack the evaporator. Unfortunately in many parts of the US the dew point spends a lot of time very close to the temperature and a heat pump must use a defrost cycle similar to the frost free freezer. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 20:46:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA02246; Tue, 15 May 2001 20:43:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 20:43:09 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 20:42:48 -0700 Message-ID: <003201c0ddba$4732c8e0$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001001c0dd61$ae206a20$51181ad8@oemcomputer> Resent-Message-ID: <"SHakq.0.qY.CTV0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42588 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Why do you keep asking where people live ? Matthew Rogers Prove it.. Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Meland [mailto:etimes@teleport.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 10:09 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Hey Robin; Have you visited Pine Gap lately? Sounds like you have. Wind and photovoltaics only operate when wind is blowing or sun is shining. Tesla resonance devices work 24 hrs a day, no moving parts to wear out and more cost effective. ie 1/2 waffle iron size puts out 1200 watts. Maybe one of the 2 inventors that independently figured out the technology will take Eric up on the offer. We are working on that. Do you know where Eric lives? Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Monday, May 14, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 May 2001 16:52:51 -0400: >[snip] >>elsewhere, yet it can't stop wind power. So why doesn't The Conspiracy take >>effective steps to close down the industry? Is wind power too big already? >>Okay, why didn't The Conspiracy crush it back in 1985 when wind had few >>supporters and only millions, instead of billions, in income. >[snip] >Because it isn't just the replacement of the fossil fuel industry that >is considered a "problem". It's the fact(?) that ZPE based devices >relate to anti-gravity, and the peaceful races in the galaxy don't want >belligerent xenophobic warmongering Earthlings bothering them. > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 20:56:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA05443; Tue, 15 May 2001 20:53:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 20:53:55 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Air conditioner paradox Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 23:59:22 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010516103949.008689a0@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"3sIuX1.0.zK1.JdV0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42589 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John. I think it's a matter of consumer demand rather than availability. This is currently a matter of debate in the U.S. as many of our citizens can't grasp the notion that using several times the energy required to do something is NOT a virtue. One needs to follow the money for the real explanation. I like Fred's link to the heat pump using the water mains; do you suppose my neighbors would notice if I did this? I'd have to imagine that it's possible to make hot water come out of someones cold tap...god help me if it catches on and we're all doing it (smile). K. -----Original Message----- From: John Winterflood [mailto:jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 10:40 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Air conditioner paradox Jed wrote: >No, seriously. NO air conditioner would be good for this. You would only >destroy the machine. Ordinary air conditioners are not engineered to be >dual-mode heat pumps for use in winter. Heat pumps are, of course. I was of the understanding that _most_ air conditioners were engineered to be dual-mode heat pumps for use in winter. They go by the term "reverse-cycle" and are certainly _very_ common in this country (Australia). I find it hard to believe that similar technology is not available in the USA ? I also of the impression that many refrigerators operate for short periods of time in "reverse-cycle" mode for defrosting. They don't bother with thermostatic control in this mode however, they just go for a fixed length of time to ensure that any ice build up is melted. I'd be interested to be corrected if someone is better informed ? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 21:53:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA27167; Tue, 15 May 2001 21:52:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:52:22 -0700 From: Steve Krivit To: VORTEX Subject: Heat Treating experts Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:54:00 -0700 X-Mailer: MailBeamer v3.24 (Win98) Message-ID: <232581287.569658975.4294704681@Butthead.linkline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gSC8c3.0.Pe6.5UW0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42590 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vortex Scientists: I am a layperson in the CF/LENR field but following as closely as I can.... I understand from http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/faq.html that the process of treating the metal involves high pressures and high temperatures resulting in tricky material handling and process characteristics. Have any of you consulted with professional heat treating companies, such as those that handle parts for race engines, aerospace, etc, to see if they have any tricks to offer? I visit one such place on occaision and have observed a myriad of fascinating machines, tools and processes within their technology. Steve From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 15 22:51:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA11379; Tue, 15 May 2001 22:51:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 22:51:28 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:51:18 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001001c0dd61$ae206a20$51181ad8@oemcomputer> <003201c0ddba$4732c8e0$1f962640@bear> In-Reply-To: <003201c0ddba$4732c8e0$1f962640@bear> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA11352 Resent-Message-ID: <"EmFgr3.0.hn2.WLX0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42591 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Tue, May 15, 2001 10:09 AM [snip] >and photovoltaics only operate when wind is blowing or sun is shining. Tesla >resonance devices work 24 hrs a day, no moving parts to wear out and more >cost effective. [snip] Great, where do I get one? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 01:20:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA11010; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:19:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 01:19:59 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3AF9CF24.E8BFA9C8@ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 03:18:10 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind Resent-Message-ID: <"fjwPD1.0.th2.lWZ0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42592 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{Hi Ed. Sorry for the delay. The barbarians are at my gates, and I'm being overwhelmed by sheer numbers! :-) Incidentally, my response ballooned to enormous size again, but this time I'm sending it all, so this message is in two parts. --Mitchell Jones}*** >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> Ed Storms wrote: >> >> >After you were "born again" into this new, identical being >> >> ***{You keep using the word "identical." However, I am explicitly saying >> that the new being is *not* identical. While he possesses the >> understandings you possessed at the time of your death, he does not possess >> your memories, and his body may be radically different--he may not even be >> a member of the human species, in fact. --MJ}*** > >Sorry, I was referring to your idea that the new person needs to be like >you to >become you. ***{This is an extraordinarily difficult subject to penetrate, and, realizing that, I am trying very hard to make myself clear. Part of the problem, I think, is the very wide philosophical gulf between us: you are coming at this problem from the perspective of a person who has been somewhat influenced by Eastern mysticism, and I am coming at it from the perspective of Western Rationalism. Philosophically, these are antipodes, and the result is a struggle to communicate. --MJ}*** >> , how would you know >> >that this process had occurred? >> >> ***{The only way to know that the process occurred is by means of the >> reasoning we have been discussing--to wit: (a) the fact that you are alive >> now proves that conditions exist which are capable of bringing you from a >> state of nonexistence into a state of existence; (b) the vastness, >> complexity, and ever changing nature of the universe suggests that, after >> you die, those conditions will eventually occur again; and (c) logic >> requires that, if they do, you will live again. --MJ}*** > >This logic evades the possibility that each of us is entirely "new" and >that we >live now only because an egg and sperm got together. ***{It doesn't matter whether it is the first time, and it doesn't matter whether consciousness is merely a property of a material entity. Even if both of these statements are true, the fact that we live and are conscious is proof that the world is capable of bringing us into existence, thereby satisfying condition (a), above. Therefore if you do not deny (b), then (c) inexorably follows. Simply put: the fact that the world has brought you into existence once is proof that, if those conditions are replicated after your death, you will live again. This conclusion is no less certain than saying that, if CF has occurred once, then if the conditions which existed at that time are replicated, it will occur again. --MJ}*** We appear unique to >ourselves only because that is the way we were designed to feel. Your >logic is >much like my saying that because I can imagine cold fusion, therefore it >must be >real. ***{I'm not saying that our ability to imagine living again makes it real. In terms of the CF metaphor, the reasoning would proceed as follows: (a) the fact (let's assume) that cold fusion is taking place in Sam's lab now proves that conditions exist which are capable of bringing cold fusion from a state of nonexistence to a state of existence; (b) the vastness, complexity, and ever changing nature of the universe suggests that, after Sam's experiment is over, those conditions will eventually occur again; and (c) logic requires that, if they do, cold fusion will occur again. To put the matter a bit differently, I am saying that any X which has been defined solely in terms of a specific set of physical characteristics will occur again, if those characteristics occur again. It is only if you insert a requirement of spatio-temporal continuity into the definition of X, that it can only occur once. For example, if you crack open an egg (X), fry it, and eat it, there is one thing and one thing only which prevents someone in the future from having "that egg" for breakfast again: the fact that no future egg will connect back, by a continuous spatio-temporal pathway, to the egg which you ate today. On the other hand, if you relax the requirement of spatio-temporal connectedness, and define X solely by means of a list of physical characteristics not involving position in space and time, then, irregardless of the degree of detail in your list of characteristics, X will eventually occur again. Granted, our habit of requiring spatio-temporal connectedness in our definitions of specific objects--"that egg," "that car," "that woman," etc.--is highly useful both in our thought processes and in our attempts to keep track of items of property. However, if out of habit we thoughtlessly impose that requirement on our definitions of *self*--of who we are--then we force, by an act of stipulation, the conclusion that we can never live again. In my view, this is not a matter that can be decided by stipulation. The fact is that phenomena--complex processes which arise out of the interactions of parts--are just as real as objects, and the definitions of phenomena do *not* involve the requirement of spatio-temporal connectedness. The phenomenon of nuclear fission, for example, is not something that can occur only once. It is, instead, something which is defined in terms of properties that are independent of spatio-temporal connectedness, and, as such, can occur again and again, whenever and wherever those properties are present. The question you have to ask yourself, therefore, is this: is your mind an object, or a phenomenon? If the former, then the requirement of spatio-temporal connectedness strictly applies, and this is the only life you can ever have. On the other hand, if your mind is a phenomenon, then whenever the conditions which give rise to it are satisfied after your death, you will perforce live again. In my view, the answer is obvious: each mind is a phenomenon, not an object--so much so that the very idea of pointing at an object and saying: "That is my mind," is ludicrous. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> Would you remember your previous existence? If >> >not, what is the point? >> >> ***{When I came into this world, I did not remember any previous lives, >> despite the likelihood that I had existed in this universe before. >> Therefore, by your premise, there could have been no point to my life. Yet, >> in fact, there obviously was a point: my life was an opportunity to enjoy, >> to learn, to grow, and to advance my understandings relative to those I had >> when I came into the world. What more justification does life require? > >The "point" had nothing to do with your enjoying your present life. The >"point" >has to do with believing that you lived before and this previous life had some >meaning to you. ***{Your question was subject to two interpretations: (1) You could have been saying that if I did not have memories of my previous existence, then my present life would have no meaning. I addressed that interpretation in the paragraph above. (2) You could have been saying that if I did not have memories of my previous life, then that previous life had no meaning. I addressed that interpretation in the paragraph immediately below. Regarding (2), above, some additional comments may be in order. It is my view that the previous life has meaning in the present life *if and only if the understandings acquired in the previous life are available in the present life.* The understandings, after all, are the meaning which one extracted from one's previous life. The memories of the previous life, on the other hand, are more analogous to a motion picture: they are a store of raw data, not of the meaning which was extracted from those data. As such, they can be dispensed with. Indeed, at the end of a person's life, he has the ability to recall very little of the concrete events of that life--which means: most of the data in that "movie" has been dispensed with already. Only a few frames remain, and they will be dispensed with at death, with the result that when he comes back into the world for his next life, he will be *tabula rasa*--a blank slate--insofar as his conscious memories are concerned. All he will retain of the prior life will be the understandings--the meaning--not the specific events that enabled him to grasp that meaning. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> As for the absence of conscious memories of a prior life, what is the big >> loss? Granted, you would not want to be stuck in a rut from which you never >> made any progress, always coming back, at the beginning of the next life, >> precisely the same way you were at the beginning of the previous one. >> However, to make progress from one life to the next, does not require that >> conscious memories be retained. If a person has a head start, relative to >> the intellectual development he had at the beginning of his previous life, >> because the understandings he had at the end of that life are retained, >> then he will not have to repeat the laborious learning process that enabled >> him to build up those understandings. Instead, he will find that he has >> "innate talent" or "natural ability" in the areas where those >> understandings apply, and he will whiz through his studies in those areas. > >Yes, that is the benefit "conventional" reincarnation is supposed to give. ***{To put the matter very explicitly: one need not have memories of a previous life, in order for that life to have meaning, provided that the understandings which you acquired in that previous life are available to you in this life. --MJ}*** >> I would add that the retention of conscious memories would in many respects >> be disadvantageous. If you remembered your previous mother, for example, >> you would probably feel less loyal to your present mother. And if you >> remembered every mother you ever had, across eons of time and space, all >> the way back to lives in which you were a fish or a bug, I suspect that you >> would be hopelessly confused in your problem solving efforts as a human. :-) > >Presumably, the memories of past lives are not as strong as present >memories, at >least that is what people who have these memories say. ***{In my opinion, these sorts of claims are in every way analogous to the equally plentiful claims by religious persons to have seen miracles. Indeed, they are explicitly claims of miracles, because it is no less difficult to construct an explanation of how memories can travel across space and time from the brains of persons long dead, and insert themselves in the brains of the newborn, than it is to construct an explanation of how a witch can fly through the air on a broom or a plaster statue of Christ can exude blood. Thus I will leave the process of theorizing about how such things can happen to the proponents of such silliness, and will confining myself to the role of critic--which means: I will happily analyze their theories, when confronted with them, but will confine my own theoretical musings to areas that are likely to be more fruitful. In the present case, where the point has to do with whether it is possible to live again, it is sufficient to note two things: (1) It is unnecessary to to argue that we retain memories of past lives, in order to believe in the possibility that we may live again. (2) The attempt to argue that we do so has the immediate effect of demolishing one's credibility, in the eyes of any person who has a logical mind, precisely *because* such memories would properly fall into the category of a miracle. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> Bottom line: there is a point to life, even if you do not remember any >> previous lives when you come into the world. > >I agree - my problem is with your model of the reliving process. ***{I believe that most of our communications difficulties stem from the philosophical chasm that yawns between us. My strongest philosophical influence has been objectivism, which is the purest example of Western Rationalism. You, on the other hand, are somewhat attracted to Eastern Mysticism, a circumstance which places you at the opposite end of the philosophical spectrum from me. Frankly, I am amazed that we are able to discuss this subject at all--without throwing chairs at one another, at any rate. :-) --MJ}*** >> >> ***{I occasionally have vivid dreams that the credulous might >>characterize >> >> as memories, but that is not the label I place on them. --MJ}*** >> > >> >If this is the case, why are you raising the subject of dreams? >> >> ***{Because what you term "memories of prior lives," I term "dreams." :-) >> --MJ}*** >> >> What would you >> >accept as evidence of a past existence? >> >> ***{The only evidence for past lives is the reasoning that I described >> above. When sincere and level-headed people claim to have memories of prior >> lives, they are for the most part merely misinterpreting their dreams. Why >> do I say that? Because none of them can propose a non-absurd mechanism by >> which information might be transferred from the brains of dead people to >> those of the living. Instead they all, like you, are forced to invoke an >> "unseen world" the existence of which is incompatible with the world of the >> senses. --MJ}*** > >The problem we have in our individual interpretations of reality is that you >think certain models are absurd, so you invent another model that I find >absurd. >You conclude that the "unseen world" is incompatible with the world of the >senses while I see that we are surrounded by information and aspects of >reality >that are equally invisible to the senses, yet you believe in them. The >difference between our approaches rest on how we judge the evidence that is >presented to us by reality. I examine certain phenomena, evaluate whether >they >are real, then try to find an explanation. You on the other hand, look >at the >same phenomena and conclude that they are absurd because they can not be >explained by your understanding of reality. There simply is no way out of >such a >conflict of viewpoints. ***{All I require, in order to qualify a claim as "possible," is that the proponent of that claim do one of two things: (1) He may supply an explanation for the claim which does not conflict with what I believe. (2) He may supply evidence that what I believe is wrong. If he does neither, then I quite naturally dismiss his claim. Since you seem to think the above procedure is unreasonable, here is my question for you: if a person is not permitted to toss out a claim that conflicts with what he knows, then what is the point of acquiring knowledge? --Mitchell Jones}*** >> >> ***{Being able to reason requires one thing only: a command of language. >> >> Since beliefs are held in the form of statements, they require >>language as >> >> well. That means we acquire the capacity to reason at exactly the >>same time >> >> we acquire the capacity to form beliefs. The implication: it is >>impossible >> >> to acquire beliefs before one is able to reason. --MJ}*** >> > >> >I suggest these assertions are at odds with a large body of psychological >> >experience. A wide range of study shows that people and animals reason >> >without the >> >use of language. >> >> ***{Ed, I have stated very explicitly what I mean by reason, and you have >> agreed with that definition. To refresh your memory, here it is again: >> >> (1) You state, as accurately as you can, the question to be answered. >> >> (2) You state, as accurately as you can, the various possible answers to >> that question. >> >> (3) You systematically search for factual information that contradicts >> those answers, until all of them have been eliminated but one. >> >> (4) The answer that remains, however implausible, is what you must accept >> as the truth. >> >> Given that is what "reason" means, it is obviously nonsense to claim that >> "A wide range of study shows that people and animals reason without the use >> of language," because the entire process, as defined, is based on the use >> of language. > >Mitchell, you have defined reason in a narrow way that suits your >argument. This >is not the general definition of reason. Using your definition, I agree >animals >do not "reason", for what that agreement is worth. ***{It is worthwhile for us to recognize and agree that animals lack the tool (language) which is necessary to form abstract ideas, as well as the tool (reason) which is necessary to evaluate them. Why is it useful? Because, if you will recall, this particular subthread began when you said: "I suggest you have beliefs that you acquired before you were able to reason and that these influence how you evaluate your present experiences." I took your usage of "beliefs" in the above as a reference to abstract ideas, rather than as a reference to crude associations (e.g., image of finger on hot frying pan evokes memory of pain) of the sort that a pre-verbal child, or an animal, can acquire. Why did I make that interpretation? Because your clear intent was to discuss matters that exert important long-term influences on our lives, and it is not crude associations ("percepts") which do that. Even in extreme cases where, for example, a pre-verbal child is tortured by his parents, it is the thinking and experiences that occur *after* a command of language (and, thus, the ability to reason) is acquired, which will exert the overwhelmingly dominant influence on his life. Like it or not, it is abstract ideas, not crude perceptual associations, that determine what we become. Bottom line: reason can undo the bad effects of pre-verbal trauma, and of post-verbal trauma as well, provided only that it is applied consistently to all aspects of the person's life. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> What those studies actually show, in fact, is that some animals, >> particularly mammals, choose--which means: they imagine what will happen if >> they do A, then imagine what will happen if they do B, and choose on the >> basis of imagined sensations of pleasure and pain. For example: a deer sees >> a tiger crouched near a water hole, and imagines two sequences of events: >> she gets a nice drink of cool clear water, after which she is killed and >> eaten; or she drinks from the mud puddle at her feet, and lives. Result: >> the pain associated with the first sequence of mental images prompts her to >> drink from the mud puddle instead. >> >> Bottom line: the fact that animals choose does not imply that they reason. > >That is true. Reason, in the general definition, is not the same as an >educated >choice. Reason must involve an unseen, imagined situation that leads to a >nonobvious choice. The apes and dolphins have been found to show this >ability. ***{Apes and dolphins have very advanced abilities to generate expectations (imagined sequences of events which will result if certain actions are taken) and to choose on the basis of the pleasure-pain contents of those expectations, but that is not the same thing as the ability to express facts in the form of verbal constructs, or to manipulate such constructs in accordance with the rules of logic. It is these latter abilities which, traditionally, have been described as "reason," and that are responsible for the enormous gulf which exists, in terms of capabilities and accomplishments, between man and the other species that are known to inhabit this planet. --MJ}*** >> In addition, your statement depends on how you define "belief". >> >A person can acquire a "belief" in God by simply being raised in a >>religious >> >family >> >> ***{In my usage, a belief is a statement upholding some truth. As such, it >> is of necessity couched in the terms of language. Hence belief, like >> reasoning, requires the use of language. Result: it is impossible to >> acquire beliefs before one can reason. > >I'm afraid, Mitchell, this is once again a narrow definition designed to >fit your >argument. ***{It isn't designed to "fit" my argument, Ed. That is, in fact, what I mean by "belief." If we agreed to call it "gloob" instead, then I would aver that gloob, like reasoning, requires the use of language, and, as a result, that it is impossible to acquire gloobs before one can reason. --MJ}*** A belief can be a verbal statement, but it also can result in an >action requiring no language for its revelation. ***{Understanding can "result in an action requiring no language for its revelation." For example, due to a moment of inattention, you find that the wheels on the right side of your car are in the ditch. Correct understanding, in that situation, will prompt you to steer back onto the pavement without hitting the brake. That is an "action requiring no language for its revelation." Note, however, that understanding and belief are not the same thing. The proof: If I ask you whether you should hit the brakes in that situation, you will say something such as: "If you hit the brakes, you will spin out of control and roll your car." When you make that statement, you express your *belief*. Understanding is the cause, and belief is the effect. Hence understanding and belief are *not* the same thing. --MJ}*** I suggest that most people have >no idea how their beliefs control their actions - they just act without >thinking >or reasoning. ***{It is in the nature of animal consciousness that actions are controlled by the expectation with the highest satisfaction total. (An expectation is like a movie which you play in your head, by which you preview the effects of taking a particular action. The satisfaction total of an expectation may be positive or negative, and is obtained by subracting the total amount of pain in the expectation from the total amount of pleasure. This subtraction is performed automatically by a faculty which lies in the unconscious mind.) In the case of man, however, it is possible to use linguistic tools to tinker with, and modify, the crude perceptually based expectations that arise automatically from our experiences. Result: we can break free of our experiences, and follow pathways that *we* have created, whether for good or for ill, depending on whether our modifications are based on reason, or on something else. --MJ}*** >> Of course, one can acquire memories before one can use language, and one >> can choose on the basis of those memories. For example, the pre-verbal >> child touches the hot frying pan, burns the crap out of himself, and >> remembers not to touch it again. Some would say that he now "believes" the >> hot frying pan will burn him if he touches it, but that is not my usage. I >> would say that he associates pain with the thought of touching the hot pan, >> or, more accurately, that his expectation of touching the hot pan involves >> pain. > >Yes, I agree. On the other hand, he can "believe" someone placed the hot pan >there for the purpose of burning him. ***{A pre-verbal child might *understand* (or misunderstand) the situation in that way. However, being pre-verbal, he could not express that understanding in the form of a belief, and, thus, could not store that expression in his conscious memories. Result: while he might take the hot pan as being an expression of hostility--from his mother, say--he would have no means of awareness of that understanding, save during those brief moments when it was influencing his perception of an event. A belief--a verbal construct expressing an understanding--is necessary to be aware of what one understands, and is also necessary to convey one's understanding to others. Since the ability to easily modify one's understandings is facilitated by a command of language, lower animals tend become very set in their ways. For example, there are a number of feral cats that hang around my house. They were attracted here by the opportunity to sneak up and scavenge the leftovers that remain after we feed our dogs, and, as is the norm for their kind, they float somewhere in the netherworld between the state of domestication and the truly wild. Result: on those not infrequent occasions when I inadvertently step on one of their tails or feet, I can clearly see that some assume malevolent intent, while others do not. It is my belief that these differing modes of interpretation arise primarily out of the differing innate understandings which they brought with them into the world, which in turn arose due to the varying doses of wild type genetic material that they acquired at the moment of conception. Moreover, since they lack language and, as a result, have far less ability to modify their understandings than a human would have, some of them are very difficult to buddy up to. For example, when I put food out for them and sit right next to the bowl, some will come boldly up and eat, and will even--albeit reluctantly--permit me to stroke them. Others, however, will hang back, even if they are woefully in need of nourishment, as such animals frequently are. Of course humans, despite having the ability to reason and, thus, far more ability to modify inappropriate behavior than lower animals, seldom elect to do so, and thus, by default, usually remain little more than animals themselves. :-( --Mitchell Jones}*** [To be continued.] ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 01:21:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA11340; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:20:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 01:20:53 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 03:19:20 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind Resent-Message-ID: <"1sU-l.0.5n2.bXZ0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42593 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [This is the continuation of the previous message.] That would involve abstract reasoning >using an imagined situation. ***{It is my view that the assumption of hostile intent is strongly influenced by innate tendencies--i.e., by the core understandings that are encoded into the unconscious mind when an individual comes into the world. It is the strength of such tendencies, in fact, that determines the placement of non-humans on the continuum connecting the wild state to the state of domestication, and, for humans, strongly influences their positions on the continuum from criminal to non-criminal. Animality and criminality are kissing cousins, as it were. :-) --MJ}*** Granted, such a conclusion would not be considered >rational or normal. Nevertheless, people do come to such conclusions, and >from >such reasoning develop a belief that they are being influenced by unseen >forces >or people. ***{For example, that they are being influenced by dead people. Indeed, we are quite seriously discussing that possibility right now. The only difference, in my case, is that I am saying that the dead person was me in a former life, and that the mode of influence arises by the application of the law of identity to the defining characteristics I possessed at the end of that former life--to wit: when, after the end of my earlier life, a new child came into the world with the understandings I had then, he of necessity had to be me. Of course, what you had in mind was people burdened by *irrational* beliefs about unseen influences. However, I am not yet entirely sure that the various opinions we have been discussing here are entirely rational. As noted previously, I was a believer in "the big sleep" for virtually all of my life, save the last couple of years, and despite my present inability to defend that view, I continue to suspect that it may be true. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> As to whether a child can acquire a belief in God simply by virtue of being >> raised in a religious family, it depends on the child, upon the degree of >> talent for reasoning that he brings with him into the world, upon the >> amount of coercion his parents are willing to apply to force his thoughts >> into the desired mold, upon his freedom to escape from his parents if they >> mistreat him, and on many other things. > >The process is very subtle and not affected by reasoning. It is called brain >washing when applied to an adult. ***{Brainwashing involves the holding of targeted individuals in a state of captivity, the creation of a climate of intense fear, and, within that context, forcing the victims to pay lip service to propaganda. The technique is very powerful because the habitual responses that are thereby engendered have an abnormal compelling force. Result: if the individual should ever escape into a situation where such lip service is not required, he will discover that the habits so acquired are extraordinarily difficult to change. Why do such habits have abnormal force and resistance to change? Because the state of fear, physiologically, bespeaks a threat to life. Naturally, a threat to life begets a much more focused and intense response than a non-threatening stimulus: natural selection operated to make sure that was the case. (I call such habits *emergency habits*, by the way.) --Mitchell Jones}*** Enough is now known about how the brain works >that a skilled person can change the reality of anyone under the right >circumstances. ***{Incorrect. It is impossible to change the worldview of a person who is determined to not be influenced, providing only that he recognizes what the situation requires--i.e., that he must either escape, or die trying. --MJ}*** In the case of a child, the process is easy and can be done >without any physical harm being used. ***{A climate of fear must be created, in order to give the habits abnormal force. Without it, the habits which will be formed will be of the ordinary sort, and will be easily changed by means of reasoning. When the would-be brainwasher is dealing with individualists--i.e., people whose understandings, whether innate or acquired, do not dispose them to fear other people--there is no way to create a climate of fear, unless one is willing to do physical harm. When dealing with collectivists, on the other hand, the threat is as good as the deed. Since most people on this planet are the product of defective genetic material, they come into the world with an innate fear of other people--i.e., as collectivists--and, as such, are prepared to submit to a tyrant. Result: they will imagine that one is present even if he does not exist, and in most cases go through their lives paying mindless lip-service to whatever propaganda they were exposed to during their formative years. Attempts to change such people, by and large, are as pointless as trying to "buddy-up" to feral cats. --MJ}*** The person has no way of knowing that his >reality has changed. ***{By means of reason, one can comprehend the influence that past trauma has had, and, given sufficient time, one can undo those influences. However, it takes far more time to overcome emergency habits than ordinary habits, and so a mature adult, particularly a person of advanced years, should simply refuse to put up with the process. For such persons the proper course, as noted above, is to escape or die trying. You may die a bit sooner than would have been the case otherwise, but at least you will die as the person you wanted to be, rather than as the person some drooling halfwit wanted you to be. (As a matter of related interest: I have an old manuscript that I wrote many years ago, entitled *Brainwashing American Style*, which is a book-length analysis of the indoctrination process as practiced in our public schools, in the parental home, in street gangs, in prisons, in foster homes, etc. Brainwashing, truth be told, is as American as apple pie! :-) It is, in fact, the process by which the country was destroyed.) --MJ}*** >> (or in your case, the opposite result >> >> ***{When I said I never believed in God, I did not mean my parents were >> atheists. They were, in fact, believers; and they attempted to pass their >> beliefs on to me. However, I considered those ideas to be absurd from the >> very first time I heard them, back when I was two or three. (Yeah, I know: >> I was a bizarre kid. I never believed in Santa Claus, either. :-) --MJ}*** > >Clearly, your powers of reasoning developed much earlier and to a greater >extent >than is the case for most people. Your unique experience can not be >applied to >the general human race. Whether you could have been "taught" a belief in >religion is not for me to say without knowing you much better. >> However, a "belief" in the Second >> >Law, I admit requires some logic and language. >> >> ***{Understandings result from the reasoning that one does, or from the >> lack thereof--which means: the less one reasons about one's experiences, >> the more vulnerable one becomes to the influence of one's >> "environment"--i.e., other people. The fact that beliefs and reasoning both >> require language, in other words, merely means that one has the >> *opportunity* to base one's beliefs on reasoning, not that one must >> necessarily do so. --MJ}*** > >The problem I'm talking about is most visible in the people we call insane. >These people use logic and reason very well. The problem is that their logic >starts from a nonrational premise. The trouble is that we all are "insane" to >some extent. All of the premises we use are to some degree incomplete and >irrational. As you discovered in our debate, I start from a different premise >than you do, hence arrive at a different conclusion using logic and reasoning. >The fault does not lie in the ability to reason. > >> >> >> >> In addition, we >> >> >all, no matter how logical, are influenced by our experiences in >> >> >nonlogical ways. >> >> >> >> ***{That is true of people who reject reason or who apply it >> >> inconsistently. For people who accept reason and apply it consistently, >> >> however, it is only to the extent that they make mistakes, that their >> >> experiences influence them in illogical ways. --MJ}*** > >Once again, you assume the ideal, i.e. accept reason and apply it >consistently. >Can you say that you apply reasoning consistently to all things? Have you >ever >been in love? ***{When I hear the word "love," I reach for my revolver. :-) --MJ}*** >> >"To the extent that they make mistakes", now there is another rub. I >> >suggest a >> >more useful description is "to the extent that logic fails". >> >> ***{That would certainly be "more useful" if one wanted an excuse to >> abandon logic. But without logic, one cannot reason, and reason is the most >> powerful instrument one has for finding the truth. Therefore, why would one >> abandon the most powerful instrument one has for finding the truth? The >> answer: one would do that only if the goal were to surrender oneself to the >> influences of "environment"--which means: to "fit in" with "significant >> others" rather than to find the truth. This is, in fact, precisely why all >> religions, and all religious cults, explicitly disavow logic and reason, >> and encourage their followers to rely instead on blind faith, "holy" books, >> the supposed "wisdom" of "holy" men, etc. (It is hard to separate a man >> from his wallet, if you encourage him to judge everything, including your >> teachings, on the basis of reason. :-) --MJ}*** > >In religion, faith is applied only to the basic belief. Reasoning is then >used >to arrive at the conclusions the belief implies. For example you have as >a basic >belief that a supreme universal intelligence (a God) does not exist. You can >not arrive at this belief from reasoning ***{Of course you can. "God" is just a hypothesis put forth to explain the existence of the universe, and, even from the perspective of a child, "God" is not the simplest explanation of the facts. When I was about 3, for example, I remember asking my grandfather the following question: "If God created everything, where did God come from?" and I remember my acute disappointment when he replied, "God always existed." Why was I disappointed? Because the only reason "God" was required was as an explanation for the existence of the universe. And if God could have always existed, then, obviously, the universe could have always existed as well. By having recourse to such an explanation, in other words, my grandfather had ripped the foundation from under his own belief. [By the way, the reason I think I was about 3 is that I remember the scene in the room vividly, when I asked that question, because I was very nervous about asking it. Thus I recall that my grandfather towered over me like a giant, and that the top of his kitchen table, which had a red and white "oilcloth" table cloth on it, was slightly above my eye level.] As I became older, of course, I discovered other, more powerful arguments to the same end. For example, the principle of continuity--that no thing may come into existence out of nothing or vanish into nothing--precludes the possibility of the universe coming into existence out of nothing, and, thus, proves that the universe always existed and that God does not exist. --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] >> Bottom line: when people do not move toward the truth, the fault does not >> lie in reason, but in themselves. > >True, but as I argued above, you can not change a belief using reasoning. All >you can do is to show that your basic belief is inconsistent with the other >belief, using logic. This process does not show which belief is correct. ***{If two people remain civil to one another long enough, while continuing to discuss a point of disagreement, the conversation will eventually begin to focus on the premises by which they differ, and upon the reasoning by which they uphold those premises. It is only at that point, and then only if both parties are committed to finding the truth, that opinions can be changed. Unfortunately, such conditions are almost never met: people seldom remain civil when arguing; and they seldom persist; and it is rare that both parties are committed to finding the truth. Result: opinions are seldom changed by arguments, as you say. Nevertheless, when the right conditions are met, opinions can be changed, and even when they are not, such exchanges greatly enhance understanding, and are worthwhile on that ground alone. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> >> complex matter can apparently be moved in >> >> >and out of our reality at will by certain individuals. >> >> >> >> ***{I have no doubt that Sai Baba can make his followers money disappear, >> >> for example. :-) --MJ}*** >> > >> >His follower's money is used to build schools in India that teach >> >technology. Sai >> >Baba accepts no money for himself. >> >> ***{Does he have a house? A car? Servants? An office? Employees? If so, >> then he derives benefits from his followers' money, irrespective of the >> bookkeeping practices that he employs. --MJ}*** > >We all must live and resources must be provided for that purpose. Sai Baba >receives resources from his followers for this purpose in the same manner >as we >all obtain resources for what we do. The issue is whether he takes more >than is >reasonable and how he uses the excess. He is not ripping off his >followers, as >your statement would imply, but he is using money given willingly to >improve the >Indian society. This is done through a foundation run by other people. > >> >> >> He believes for India to come out of the dark >> >ages, technology must be applied throughout society. His goal is to >> >provide the >> >means to teach how this tool should be developed and used for the benefit >> >of his >> >country and eventually the world. While he carries a message from the >>other >> >reality, he also recognizes what is needed in this world to allow his basic >> >message to have meaning. His basic message is the same as Christ and many >> >other >> >people have taught the subject, i.e. we are not isolated individuals >> >> ***{In a division-of-labor society, we all specialize; and we depend on the >> mechanism of trade to obtain values produced by others. In that sense, we >> are all interdependent. --MJ}*** > >The view of not being isolated individuals has nothing to do with economics or >division of labor. It has to do with the very essence of our existence. >Economics and division of labor produces conflict. ***{No, the opportunity to acquire property by means of force or the threat of force creates conflict, because so long as such opportunities exist, natural selection will be unable to eliminate the defective genes that render such opportunities attractive. Result: the predators will forever remain among us, so long as we continue to tolerate governments which have the power to violate property rights "in the public interest." --MJ}*** The situation he is talking >about is designed to eliminate conflict. He is saying that we are all >alike in >the most basic of ways ***{And I totally disagree. There are very basic differences between people. I, for example, am not a predator, which means I am not "one" with those who are attracted to the opportunity to acquire property by means of force or the threat of force, and I would, given the chance, instantly take myself to a society which did not tolerate such activities. Unfortunately, no such societies presently exist. --MJ}*** and that we should value each other (love) as we would >value our closest relative. ***{I do not "love" human predators or consider them to be "brothers." And I particularly despise the unclean ways in which their minds work, always seeking and finding excuses--e.g., furthering the "public interest," or "serving mankind," or whatever--to provide cover for their short-sighted, immoral, animalistic schemings. --MJ}*** >> , but part of >> >a universal conscious >> >> ***{Our streams of consciousness are ultimately and irreducibly separate: I >> see through my eyes, but cannot see through yours; you see through your >> eyes, but cannot see through mine; and so on. These are unarguable, >> irrefutable, bedrock metaphysical facts. --MJ}*** > >That is not a fact. There are people who have the ability to see through >my eyes >as well as yours. You just have not taken the trouble to meet such people. ***{If Sai Baba can see through the eyes of others, he must be a hell of a poker player! :-) The reality, however, is that if he sits across the table from Texas Slim for a few hours, he will go home in a barrel just like everybody else. (And that outcome, of course, will flatly prove the falsehood of his claim.) I would add that if anyone actually had such an ability, and used it without the permission of the person whose mind they invaded, they would be an even more thoroughgoing criminal than the hacker who mucks about in your computer without your permission. Worse: power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely--which means: any person with such an ability would quickly degenerate into a being of the most utter loathsomeness that can be imagined. Thus while falsely claiming to possess such a power would bespeak evil, a person who actually had it would be, or become, a demon straight from Hell. Fortunately, we don't have to worry about the latter possibility, since such claims are obvious nonsense. I would also note that technology will eventually develop to the point where it will be possible to plant "thought probes" in people's brains which can transmit the contents of their fields of consciousness to external receivers and display them on computer screens, enabling others to monitor what they are thinking. And when that day arrives, we had all better hope most fervently that we live in a free country--i.e., a country where the government does not have the power to violate property rights in what it deems to be "the public interest"--because if it has such a power, then you can be damned sure "compelling national security concerns," or some other similar string of animalistic, subhuman verbiage, will spew forth to "justify" the most profound invasion of privacy that is possible. If such a day ever comes, I will take my first opportunity to exit from that country, or from this life, because I will *not* submit to predatory, subhuman, immoral vermin telling me what to think. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> and that we should love each another like bothers (sisters) >> >because we are all of one family. >> >> ***{Taken literally, the above statement would imply that you should love >> Hitler, Stalin, John Wayne Gacy, and the Boston Strangler "like brothers." >> But, of course, you don't. The question, therefore, is this: why do you >> affirm a moral precept that you do not, cannot, and should not practice? >> --MJ}*** > >As you well know, just because all people do not practice an approach in the >perfect way, does not make the approach wrong. In addition, a difference >exists >between loving someone, such as Hitler, and protecting oneself from his >aberrations. Love does not imply that you must give in to the loved one at >every >turn or that you must agree with their views. ***{Why do you feel obligated to feel "love" for that which, in reason, ought to be loathed and despised? Indeed, for a person capable of doing that, what can "love" possibly mean? To love *everyone*, after all, is to make no distinction whatsoever among people, in terms of what you feel toward them. To love everyone, in short, is to love no one. --MJ}*** It only means that you will treat >them with kindness and consideration when that is possible ***{I would not treat Hitler, or Stalin, or John Wayne Gacy, or the Boston Strangler, or Son of Sam, or any other piece of predatory, subhuman vermin with "kindness and consideration," except in circumstances where I was in their power. Otherwise, I would dispatch them into their next lives with haste, with satisfaction, and without regret. --MJ}*** , that you will not be >distracted by hatred ***{Hatred, when directed at the proper target, is a good thing. And it is only by means of reason that we can decide which targets are proper, and which are not. --MJ}*** , and that you will seek the highest goal for all concerned. ***{"For all concerned" would include the above named predators. But why should we be concerned with them or with what they want? They each demonstrated, by the way they lived their lives, that they were not concerned about the goals or desires of others, and so they have no basis for arguing that we should exhibit concern for their goals and desires. No person may claim the protection of a principle that he violates. --MJ}*** >This, naturally, is not easy to do. ***{Yup: resisting the clear mandate of reason can be difficult. Thus I have taken the easy path: I do not resist. :-) --MJ}*** In the case of Hitler, I would kill the >bastard as quickly as possible, for the good of all concerned. However, I >would >do this with regret and without satisfaction. ***{By virtue of such feelings, you succumb to the con-game of religion, whose practitioners seek to always keep us in a state of guilt, so that they can control us. I suggest that you clear such nonsense from your mind by admitting a simple fact: if you send a monster into the great beyond, you are entitled to feel damn proud of yourself. The fact of the matter is that if any of those who tried to kill Hitler had succeeded, they would have shortened the war, and saved millions of lives on both sides. They would have been true heroes, and, as such, were entitled to act with satisfaction and without regret. --MJ}*** >> This simple message has profound implications >> >that would take a whole literature to explore, as has been done already. >> >> ***{A good way to start comprehending the implications is to observe the >> misery that exists in third-world hell-holes such as India, where this sort >> of message has been immensely popular for a very long time. With sufficient >> reflection, it may perhaps begin to cross the mind that what India needs is >> a government which is constitutionally bound to protect property rights, >> and that the primary obstacle to its obtaining such a government is the >> widespread belief of its people that we are all one--i.e., that individual >> consciousness, and individual rights, do not exist. --MJ}*** > >India is a complex country with more religions than people can count. That is >has survived at all is a miracle. To get from where it is, a situation >created >by the British ***{I disagree. India was far, far better off under British rule than they are today, under the democratic fascist tyranny imposed by Ghandi and his successors. Even better, of course, would be a free and independent India, under capitalism. There is, however, no chance of that. --MJ}*** , to where it must be will take more than such a government. >Indeed, the creation of such a government is impossible under the present >circumstances, but not because of this belief which is not widely shared >even in >India. ***{Oh, please, of course it is. The notion of a universal consciousness of which each person is a part is fundamental to all of the Eastern Religions, bar none. Hell, it is a belief that is shared, in one form or another, even by the vast majority of the cults in that area of the world. --MJ}*** The country needs to become prosperous and have enough property in the >hands of the general population to make such a government useful to the >majority. ***{No majority in India will ever opt for capitalism, because it is a system the workings of which are beyond the present power of the Indian masses to comprehend, and because the brutal tyranny that rules present-day India will not permit any change in that state of affairs. The power to "educate" is the power to destroy minds, and it is a power that will always be used, by governments who fear the judgment of reason. --MJ}*** >> >> This implies the existence >> >> >of a reality in which this matter and information can be stored and/or >> >>moved. >> >> >> >> ***{Yup: Sai Baba's bank account. :-) --MJ}*** >> > >> >Rather than being sarcastic, I suggest you learn something about Sai >>Baba. I >> >predict you will be surprised. >> >> ***{Actually, I was trying to be amusing. I even had a smiley at the end. >> --MJ}*** > >Have you ever read anything about the man? ***{Only your comments. --MJ}*** Amazon.com lists 106 books on the >subject. Pick one and then we can both smile. ***{When time permits, perhaps I will. Which do you recommend? --MJ}*** >Ed ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 01:25:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA12615; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:24:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 01:24:42 -0700 Message-ID: <01fb01c0ddd9$08210f80$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <016701c0dd7b$d57367c0$aeb4bfa8@computer> <3.0.6.32.20010516103949.008689a0@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 02:21:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"pk0BL.0.y43.9bZ0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42594 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Winterflood" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 9:39 PM Subject: RE: Air conditioner paradox John Winterflood wrote: > > I also of the impression that many refrigerators operate for short > periods of time in "reverse-cycle" mode for defrosting. Interesting. I just went through a learning experience with a four year old refrigerator-freezer that uses a defrost timer that kicks in a 300 watt heating element for 1/2 hour every eight running hours to melt the ice off the evaporator coils. To top it off the defrost limit thermostat that keeps the heater from burning out also had failed (open). We lost most of the food in the freezer and fridge before I could download the "Frigidaire" service guide off the net. The defrost timer was $20.00 and the thermostat was $15.00. In the 10 days it took to get the parts in and the bugs out I used a 40 year old energy hog ref-fridge in the basement kept as a back-up. > They don't > bother with thermostatic control in this mode however, they just go > for a fixed length of time to ensure that any ice build up is melted. Sounds like a good idea, John. :-) > > I'd be interested to be corrected if someone is better informed ? Not better informed, just lacking a service contract. :-) Regards, Frederick > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 01:40:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA16135; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:39:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 01:39:24 -0700 Message-ID: <020101c0dddb$1600c760$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 02:37:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"BGOxS1.0.1y3.yoZ0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42595 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 10:59 PM Subject: RE: Air conditioner paradox Keith wrote: > > I like Fred's link to the heat pump using the water mains; > do you suppose my neighbors would notice if I did this? > I'd have to imagine that it's possible to make hot water > come out of someones cold tap...god help me if it catches > on and we're all doing it (smile). LOL! :-) In the late 70s I "debugged" a newly constructed hospital that used a steam-heated (80 F continuously circulating )water loop that fed the large area and room heat pumps for heating mode in cold weather. For summer cooling the circulating loop went through a cooling tower heat exchanger. For back-up in the heating mode the water circulated through a 500 Kw electric water heater. :-) Regards, Frederick > > K. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 02:52:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA29058; Wed, 16 May 2001 02:51:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 02:51:02 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 05:57:28 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: David Rosignoli cc: thomas malloy , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jim Cox's "lifting machine" In-Reply-To: <3AFEEBAE.22AB49E8@enter.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Diax22.0.y57.6sa0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42596 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, There is a suggestion one of the only ways to test this gizmo is by use of a pendulum... If jim can make it go 108 percents, so it lifts then you do not need the pendulum On Sun, 13 May 2001, David Rosignoli wrote: > I saw Jim's experiment at the 2000 Antigravity conference that he put on > in Reno, NV. Check out http://www.padrak.com/agn/ > > He had a mechanical device that moved up and down. He placed it on a > scale. When the machine was turned on, the scale indicated a weight loss > (40%?). I don't remember what the exact weight loss was. But this > experiment and several others are on his video of the first Antigravity > Conference (held in 1999 at Reno, NV). He clearly has spent a lot of > time on it, and seems to know a great deal on it. However, I don't think > a scale test is conclusive. A better test would be to hang it on a > pendulum or a balance. Oh, but he said that his device only works in a > vertical direction, and not in a horizontal direction. > > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > My understanding is the lifter is at about 40 to 50 percents of > > its weight. > > > > At 50 percents this means if it weighs 100 pounds and is then > > turned on the scale will read 50 pounds. > > > > To lift itself AND something, it would have to operate at 100 > > percents plus some figure. > > > > On Fri, 11 May 2001, thomas malloy wrote: > > > > > > Jim made and demonstrated a "lifting" machine.... I think it uses > > > >mechanical forcing of mass and makes a lot of noise, or one model did. > > > > I did hear hee was trying to get it to go beyong 100 percents. > > > > > > > > > What do you mean by go beyond 100%? Does that mean that if the > > > machine weights 100 pounds and produces 95 pounds of lift that it is > > > at 95%? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try to find details about where his demonstrations were, > > > >but in Reno as I recall. > > > > An honest guy, no magic involved, just the movement of masses by > > > >gears and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 02:56:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA29951; Wed, 16 May 2001 02:55:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 02:55:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3B024E92.B0001D95@powerup.com.au> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 19:55:30 +1000 From: David Hancock X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amplify? Re: Policing the Spelling Police References: <002b01c0ddb0$0a19a7d0$1f962640@bear> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MSlwZ.0.vJ7.Zwa0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42597 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Um, Matthew... Generally accepted usage of written English requires that the contraction of 'I will' have an apostrophe. It would be humorous (in the schadenfreude sense) if you'd launched one stone through the wall of your glass house. But you've loaded your sig slingshot! ;-) David Matthew Rogers wrote: > > Here is another example of someone giving out personal information to a > person who cannot spell. > > Matthew Rogers > Prove it.. > Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 03:05:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA31884; Wed, 16 May 2001 03:05:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 03:05:19 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 06:11:38 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Robin van Spaandonk cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Radioactive materials Yucca Mount. Neutralized. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"a_vuU2.0.2o7.U3b0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42598 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ========= This patent works ======= 4,961,880 Wm. Barker. Briefly: Material is exposed to field for 12 to 16 hours. One time and one time only. After this the Radioactive Material, or RM abbreviated, ....under its own mechanisms ...gives off its radioactivity in months instead of thousands of years. On Wed, 16 May 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Tue, 15 May 2001 10:31:26 > -0500: > [snip] > >***{They are either waste, or they are useful material. If the former, then > >they have been adequately disposed of; and if the latter, then I suppose > >they could at some future date be mined. But as a matter of curiosity, what > >use for them do you have in mind? --MJ}*** > > US4835433. (If it works as claimed). > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 03:06:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA32070; Wed, 16 May 2001 03:06:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 03:06:09 -0700 Message-ID: <026301c0dde7$335a1760$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 04:03:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"B11j62.0._q7.G4b0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42599 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What you need Keith, is a Geothermal "Well", something like the dug wells in the old days,except without the old oaken bucket and the windlass, to use with a "water to air" heat pump. Dig a 4 ft diameter hole about 30 feet deep lined with galvanized iron culvert pipe and put a concrete plug in the bottom to keep the Environmental Protection folks happy. If you hit water, so much the better, otherwise you can let it act as a cistern with rainwater off your roof. This should get you through the winter with a cold temp above freezing > 492 Deg R. OTOH, if it starts to freeze, when the water temp drops below 39 F (499 R) it will rise to the top of the pool forming a "plug" of cold water that will help the geothermal heat transfer situation. If you do get freezing you can get ~ 2.88 therms per ton of ice made. Sort of a "freeze plug". P.S. Don't forget to cover it. Otherwise it's "Ding Dong Bell, Pussy in The Well." Good Luck! :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 03:40:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA05835; Wed, 16 May 2001 03:39:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 03:39:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3B026651.213B9EAB@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 04:36:49 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: Proceedings of the ACS Symposium, "Origin of Elements in theSolar System: Implications of Post-1957 Observations"] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nqbIh1.0.5R1.mZb0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42600 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Proceedings of the ACS Symposium, "Origin of Elements in theSolar System: Implications of Post-1957 Observations" Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:07:21 -0600 From: Origin of the Elements in our Solar System To: om@umr.edu Dear Colleagues: Please forgive this unsolicited message to inform you that the above Proceedings have finally been published and are now being distributed. One participant, Dr. R. Ganapathy , has received his copy and seems pleased with the final product. These are Proceedings of the ACS Symposium organized by Glenn Seaborg and me in 1999, shortly before his death. It provides a good cross-section of opinions on this important subject at the end of the 20th Century from internationally recognized leaders in nuclear physics, nuclear chemistry, astronomy, geology, astrophysics, planetary and space sciences. The link for the book's homepage is: http://www.wkap.nl/book.htm/0-306-46562-0 Please help us get this book into the hands of as many readers as possible. They can order it online from there. Or they can call customer service at 1 866-269-9527. The book is being released by: Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers 233 Spring Street, 7th Floor New York, NY 10013 With kind regards, Oliver K. Manuel -- *************************** Oliver K. Manuel, Professor University of Missouri Department of Chemistry Rolla, MO 65401-0249 Phone: 573-341-4420 or -4344 FAX: 573-341-6033 E-mail: oess@umr.edu http://www.umr.edu/~om/ *************************** From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 04:41:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA20090; Wed, 16 May 2001 04:40:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 04:40:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-245-187.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.245.187] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3B0267C0.ED70A7EB@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:42:57 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radioactive materials Yucca Mount. Neutralized. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"f-Gv62.0.qv4.oSc0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42601 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: So it's radioactivity increases? John Schnurer wrote: > ========= This patent works ======= > > 4,961,880 Wm. Barker. > > Briefly: > > Material is exposed to field for 12 to 16 hours. One time and one > time only. After this the Radioactive Material, or RM abbreviated, > ....under its own mechanisms ...gives off its radioactivity in months > instead of thousands of years. > > On Wed, 16 May 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Tue, 15 May 2001 10:31:26 > > -0500: > > [snip] > > >***{They are either waste, or they are useful material. If the former, then > > >they have been adequately disposed of; and if the latter, then I suppose > > >they could at some future date be mined. But as a matter of curiosity, what > > >use for them do you have in mind? --MJ}*** > > > > US4835433. (If it works as claimed). > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 04:43:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA20488; Wed, 16 May 2001 04:43:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 04:43:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-245-187.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.245.187] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3B02685D.38001BDF@ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:45:33 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radioactive materials Yucca Mount. Neutralized. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"C9xI03.0.y_4.9Vc0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42602 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Only on alphas? John Schnurer wrote: > ========= This patent works ======= > > 4,961,880 Wm. Barker. > > Briefly: > > Material is exposed to field for 12 to 16 hours. One time and one > time only. After this the Radioactive Material, or RM abbreviated, > ....under its own mechanisms ...gives off its radioactivity in months > instead of thousands of years. > > On Wed, 16 May 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Tue, 15 May 2001 10:31:26 > > -0500: > > [snip] > > >***{They are either waste, or they are useful material. If the former, then > > >they have been adequately disposed of; and if the latter, then I suppose > > >they could at some future date be mined. But as a matter of curiosity, what > > >use for them do you have in mind? --MJ}*** > > > > US4835433. (If it works as claimed). > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 07:01:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA31467; Wed, 16 May 2001 07:01:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 07:01:09 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010516095553.00a8f320@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:01:06 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox In-Reply-To: <01cc01c0dd8e$c50e09e0$aeb4bfa8@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"LJ2hZ2.0.bh7.aWe0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42603 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >Might be cheaper than trenching to lay a geothermal >system. The city might not like what you do to the water >temperature though. I doubt would know or care. People heat up tons of water for baths, laundry, restaurants . . . Small water cooled air conditioners for enclosed spaces (such as rooms inside large buildings) have been sold for 40 years or more. Large bodies of water, such as the Atlantic Ocean, are ideal heat sinks. I do not know if buildings next to the ocean take advantage of this, but they should. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 07:39:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA11728; Wed, 16 May 2001 07:38:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 07:38:16 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010516100649.028c2ce0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:10:14 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Air conditioner paradox In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010516103949.008689a0@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010515181737.02908c78@pop.mindspring.com> <016701c0dd7b$d57367c0$aeb4bfa8@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ImOVK.0.5t2.O3f0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42604 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Winterflood wrote: >I was of the understanding that _most_ air conditioners were engineered >to be dual-mode heat pumps for use in winter. Not in the U.S. or Japan. > They go by the term >"reverse-cycle" and are certainly _very_ common in this country >(Australia). I find it hard to believe that similar technology is >not available in the USA ? Sure, it is available, and it is widely used in places like Florida. It is not economical north of the Carolinas. The geothermal ones are good just about anywhere. Maybe not in the Alaskan permafrost. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 07:39:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA11756; Wed, 16 May 2001 07:38:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 07:38:18 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010516101121.02941550@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:38:15 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Yucca Mountain Project statement seems reasonable In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514123427.023aff68@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010514123427.023aff68@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"NDXIl3.0.ct2.Q3f0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42605 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > >***{They are either waste, or they are useful material. It is never an either/or choice. Most materials are considered waste by some people in one era, and valuable goods later on. When oil was first refined, the kerosene was sold and the gasoline was thrown away. Until recently, when trees were cut for lumber, small branches were thrown away. Now they are often made into paper. In general, materials increase in utility over time while falling in monetary value. We learn to use materials more effectively, and recycle better, so the cost of materials as a fraction of production cost or personal income decreases. There is a widespread myth that our ancestors were frugal and made better use of materials than we do, and that people in less developed nations today "waste less" than first world people. Consider wooden ships. They were used for only 10 or 20 long distance voyages -- seldom more than 100. You often read of a ship "paying off on the first voyage." If it did not pay off in two or three trips (a year or two), it might never pay at all. People in China today waste far more energy and materials for every dollar of productivity than we do in the first world. The reason we pollute more and use more energy is because we have so many more goods per capita. >If the former, then > >they have been adequately disposed of; and if the latter, then I suppose > >they could at some future date be mined. . . . The best thing to do is dispose of them in a place our great-grandchildren will have little difficulty finding or opening up, in case they find a use for the material. The worst thing would be to hide the rad waste, or forget where we put it. We consider solid waste landfills a blight and a financial drain. They do threaten the environment, especially the water supply. The only thing they are good for is producing a little methane. However, with improved robotics and better recycling technology, I expect that in 100 or 200 years people will think of our landfills are gold mines -- literally. Landfills will be considered cheap, concentrated sources of lead, mercury, gold, aluminum and much else. Archeologists will have a field day with them. Trash and garbage buried in the early 1950s has recently been recovered and found amazingly intact. The newspapers are still readable and some corn that was recovered may even be edible. Essentially, an older landfill is a great way preserve goods and prevent biodegredation. Some of the more modern ones are better suited to breaking down organic materials. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 08:46:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04930; Wed, 16 May 2001 08:43:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:43:17 -0700 Message-ID: <02b101c0de16$49b32d60$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Air conditioner paradox Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:40:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"WLiY91.0.xC1.K0g0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42606 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Then again, with a large swimming pool in "Central Park" with a 500 Megawatt Thermal? "Swimming Pool" Reactor in it, along with a hot water distribution system, you might not need the Heat Pumps. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 09:18:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA17676; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:13:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:13:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0299F5.9517B5D2@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:17:27 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QVKRc2.0.2K4.uSg0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42607 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > ***{Hi Ed. Sorry for the delay. The barbarians are at my gates, and I'm > being overwhelmed by sheer numbers! :-) > > Incidentally, my response ballooned to enormous size again, but this time > I'm sending it all, so this message is in two parts. > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >> Ed Storms wrote: > >> > >> >After you were "born again" into this new, identical being > >> > >> ***{You keep using the word "identical." However, I am explicitly saying > >> that the new being is *not* identical. While he possesses the > >> understandings you possessed at the time of your death, he does not possess > >> your memories, and his body may be radically different--he may not even be > >> a member of the human species, in fact. --MJ}*** > > > >Sorry, I was referring to your idea that the new person needs to be like > >you to > >become you. > > ***{This is an extraordinarily difficult subject to penetrate, and, > realizing that, I am trying very hard to make myself clear. Part of the > problem, I think, is the very wide philosophical gulf between us: you are > coming at this problem from the perspective of a person who has been > somewhat influenced by Eastern mysticism, and I am coming at it from the > perspective of Western Rationalism. Philosophically, these are antipodes, > and the result is a struggle to communicate. --MJ}*** All so true. However, I initially came from Western Rationalism, so your arguments in this context are not unfamiliar. Instead, I suggest you are a theoretician and I am an experimentalist. You imagine a model that becomes real in you own mind based on logic, and I demand to see some behavior in nature to support a model. I'm looking for such behavior in Eastern mysticism to see if it supports the belief system they have created. > > >> , how would you know > >> >that this process had occurred? > >> > >> ***{The only way to know that the process occurred is by means of the > >> reasoning we have been discussing--to wit: (a) the fact that you are alive > >> now proves that conditions exist which are capable of bringing you from a > >> state of nonexistence into a state of existence; (b) the vastness, > >> complexity, and ever changing nature of the universe suggests that, after > >> you die, those conditions will eventually occur again; and (c) logic > >> requires that, if they do, you will live again. --MJ}*** > > > >This logic evades the possibility that each of us is entirely "new" and > >that we > >live now only because an egg and sperm got together. > > ***{It doesn't matter whether it is the first time, and it doesn't matter > whether consciousness is merely a property of a material entity. Even if > both of these statements are true, the fact that we live and are conscious > is proof that the world is capable of bringing us into existence, thereby > satisfying condition (a), above. Therefore if you do not deny (b), then (c) > inexorably follows. Simply put: the fact that the world has brought you > into existence once is proof that, if those conditions are replicated after > your death, you will live again. This conclusion is no less certain than > saying that, if CF has occurred once, then if the conditions which existed > at that time are replicated, it will occur again. --MJ}*** OK, I understand. I agree we are here and I agree a small possibility exists that the DNA and other conditions might repeat and produce another me. However, since I am what I have experienced, I would not be completely me unless these experiences also occurred. Since I do not remember any previous life experience, I would never know whether I was the first of my kind or the 1000th. As far as I'm concerned, I'm the first and have no way to know when I might come again, if ever. So the model becomes pointless to me. On the other hand "conventional" reincarnation, if real, has other important implications beyond my being reborn. These implications are missing in your model. > > > We appear unique to > >ourselves only because that is the way we were designed to feel. Your > >logic is > >much like my saying that because I can imagine cold fusion, therefore it > >must be > >real. > > ***{I'm not saying that our ability to imagine living again makes it real. > In terms of the CF metaphor, the reasoning would proceed as follows: (a) > the fact (let's assume) that cold fusion is taking place in Sam's lab now > proves that conditions exist which are capable of bringing cold fusion from > a state of nonexistence to a state of existence; (b) the vastness, > complexity, and ever changing nature of the universe suggests that, after > Sam's experiment is over, those conditions will eventually occur again; and > (c) logic requires that, if they do, cold fusion will occur again. And if CF does happen again, Sam would be able to detect its presence. How would you detect the presence of another "you"? > > > To put the matter a bit differently, I am saying that any X which has been > defined solely in terms of a specific set of physical characteristics will > occur again, if those characteristics occur again. It is only if you insert > a requirement of spatio-temporal continuity into the definition of X, that > it can only occur once. For example, if you crack open an egg (X), fry it, > and eat it, there is one thing and one thing only which prevents someone in > the future from having "that egg" for breakfast again: the fact that no > future egg will connect back, by a continuous spatio-temporal pathway, to > the egg which you ate today. On the other hand, if you relax the > requirement of spatio-temporal connectedness, and define X solely by means > of a list of physical characteristics not involving position in space and > time, then, irregardless of the degree of detail in your list of > characteristics, X will eventually occur again. > > Granted, our habit of requiring spatio-temporal connectedness in our > definitions of specific objects--"that egg," "that car," "that woman," > etc.--is highly useful both in our thought processes and in our attempts to > keep track of items of property. However, if out of habit we thoughtlessly > impose that requirement on our definitions of *self*--of who we are--then > we force, by an act of stipulation, the conclusion that we can never live > again. > > In my view, this is not a matter that can be decided by stipulation. The > fact is that phenomena--complex processes which arise out of the > interactions of parts--are just as real as objects, and the definitions of > phenomena do *not* involve the requirement of spatio-temporal > connectedness. The phenomenon of nuclear fission, for example, is not > something that can occur only once. It is, instead, something which is > defined in terms of properties that are independent of spatio-temporal > connectedness, and, as such, can occur again and again, whenever and > wherever those properties are present. > > The question you have to ask yourself, therefore, is this: is your mind an > object, or a phenomenon? If the former, then the requirement of > spatio-temporal connectedness strictly applies, and this is the only life > you can ever have. On the other hand, if your mind is a phenomenon, then > whenever the conditions which give rise to it are satisfied after your > death, you will perforce live again. > > In my view, the answer is obvious: each mind is a phenomenon, not an > object--so much so that the very idea of pointing at an object and saying: > "That is my mind," is ludicrous. > > --Mitchell Jones}*** Unfortunately, the mind is based on the brain and the brain is an object. This object contains too many different features to be reproduced by chance alone. On the other hand, I have to admit a very, very small probability exists in principle that a brain could be completely duplicated, for what that is worth. > > > >> Would you remember your previous existence? If > >> >not, what is the point? > >> > >> ***{When I came into this world, I did not remember any previous lives, > >> despite the likelihood that I had existed in this universe before. > >> Therefore, by your premise, there could have been no point to my life. Yet, > >> in fact, there obviously was a point: my life was an opportunity to enjoy, > >> to learn, to grow, and to advance my understandings relative to those I had > >> when I came into the world. What more justification does life require? > > > >The "point" had nothing to do with your enjoying your present life. The > >"point" > >has to do with believing that you lived before and this previous life had some > >meaning to you. > > ***{Your question was subject to two interpretations: > > (1) You could have been saying that if I did not have memories of my > previous existence, then my present life would have no meaning. I addressed > that interpretation in the paragraph above. I believe your life now has meaning. I am saying that unless you remember your past existence, this past life has no meaning to you now. > > > (2) You could have been saying that if I did not have memories of my > previous life, then that previous life had no meaning. I addressed that > interpretation in the paragraph immediately below. The past life had meaning at the time. It has no meaning to you now because you have no way to know whether that life actually existed. > > > Regarding (2), above, some additional comments may be in order. > > It is my view that the previous life has meaning in the present life *if > and only if the understandings acquired in the previous life are available > in the present life.* In that statement, we agree. This statement also applies to "conventional" reincarnation. However, to demonstrate a previous life, events must be remembered that can be checked. "Conventional" reincarnation does this. Can you? > The understandings, after all, are the meaning which > one extracted from one's previous life. The memories of the previous life, > on the other hand, are more analogous to a motion picture: they are a store > of raw data, not of the meaning which was extracted from those data. As > such, they can be dispensed with. Indeed, at the end of a person's life, he > has the ability to recall very little of the concrete events of that > life--which means: most of the data in that "movie" has been dispensed with > already. Only a few frames remain, and they will be dispensed with at > death, with the result that when he comes back into the world for his next > life, he will be *tabula rasa*--a blank slate--insofar as his conscious > memories are concerned. All he will retain of the prior life will be the > understandings--the meaning--not the specific events that enabled him to > grasp that meaning. > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >> As for the absence of conscious memories of a prior life, what is the big > >> loss? Granted, you would not want to be stuck in a rut from which you never > >> made any progress, always coming back, at the beginning of the next life, > >> precisely the same way you were at the beginning of the previous one. > >> However, to make progress from one life to the next, does not require that > >> conscious memories be retained. If a person has a head start, relative to > >> the intellectual development he had at the beginning of his previous life, > >> because the understandings he had at the end of that life are retained, > >> then he will not have to repeat the laborious learning process that enabled > >> him to build up those understandings. Instead, he will find that he has > >> "innate talent" or "natural ability" in the areas where those > >> understandings apply, and he will whiz through his studies in those areas. > > > >Yes, that is the benefit "conventional" reincarnation is supposed to give. > > ***{To put the matter very explicitly: one need not have memories of a > previous life, in order for that life to have meaning, provided that the > understandings which you acquired in that previous life are available to > you in this life. --MJ}*** True, but it is hard to demonstrate that such knowledge came from a previous life. > > > >> I would add that the retention of conscious memories would in many respects > >> be disadvantageous. If you remembered your previous mother, for example, > >> you would probably feel less loyal to your present mother. And if you > >> remembered every mother you ever had, across eons of time and space, all > >> the way back to lives in which you were a fish or a bug, I suspect that you > >> would be hopelessly confused in your problem solving efforts as a human. :-) > > > >Presumably, the memories of past lives are not as strong as present > >memories, at > >least that is what people who have these memories say. > > ***{In my opinion, these sorts of claims are in every way analogous to the > equally plentiful claims by religious persons to have seen miracles. > Indeed, they are explicitly claims of miracles, because it is no less > difficult to construct an explanation of how memories can travel across > space and time from the brains of persons long dead, and insert themselves > in the brains of the newborn, than it is to construct an explanation of how > a witch can fly through the air on a broom or a plaster statue of Christ > can exude blood. Thus I will leave the process of theorizing about how such > things can happen to the proponents of such silliness, and will confining > myself to the role of critic--which means: I will happily analyze their > theories, when confronted with them, but will confine my own theoretical > musings to areas that are likely to be more fruitful. The value of "weaving theories" is in the mind of the beholder. Suppose you, for example, actually experienced a miracle. How would you react? Would you try to find an explanation or would you reject the observation? Naturally some people suffer from delusion and some people explain ordinary events in unrealistic ways. This defect in many people can not be used to argue that extraordinary events do not happen. Some people think CF is a miracle. Should we therefore reject the whole idea? > > > In the present case, where the point has to do with whether it is possible > to live again, it is sufficient to note two things: > > (1) It is unnecessary to to argue that we retain memories of past lives, in > order to believe in the possibility that we may live again. If no such proof exists, then the belief becomes faith. In your case, faith in your logic. > > > (2) The attempt to argue that we do so has the immediate effect of > demolishing one's credibility, in the eyes of any person who has a logical > mind, precisely *because* such memories would properly fall into the > category of a miracle. Radio was a miracle, as was radioactivity. The idea of the earth going around the sun was another miracle. Any new idea can be defined as a miracle. The word is a catchall for anything we presently can not explain. A person's credibility is a political problem having nothing to do with the truth of an argument. Credibility comes and goes, truth remains. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >> Bottom line: there is a point to life, even if you do not remember any > >> previous lives when you come into the world. > > > >I agree - my problem is with your model of the reliving process. > > ***{I believe that most of our communications difficulties stem from the > philosophical chasm that yawns between us. My strongest philosophical > influence has been objectivism, which is the purest example of Western > Rationalism. You, on the other hand, are somewhat attracted to Eastern > Mysticism, a circumstance which places you at the opposite end of the > philosophical spectrum from me. Frankly, I am amazed that we are able to > discuss this subject at all--without throwing chairs at one another, at any > rate. :-) --MJ}*** Amazing isn't it. The reason is that I also come from objectivism and retain much of this philosophy. As a result, I'm looking for evidence that supports Eastern Mysticism. The difference between us is that I consider events and experiences which you reject out of hand. > > > >> >> ***{I occasionally have vivid dreams that the credulous might > >>characterize > >> >> as memories, but that is not the label I place on them. --MJ}*** > >> > > >> >If this is the case, why are you raising the subject of dreams? > >> > >> ***{Because what you term "memories of prior lives," I term "dreams." :-) > >> --MJ}*** > >> > >> What would you > >> >accept as evidence of a past existence? > >> > >> ***{The only evidence for past lives is the reasoning that I described > >> above. When sincere and level-headed people claim to have memories of prior > >> lives, they are for the most part merely misinterpreting their dreams. Why > >> do I say that? Because none of them can propose a non-absurd mechanism by > >> which information might be transferred from the brains of dead people to > >> those of the living. Instead they all, like you, are forced to invoke an > >> "unseen world" the existence of which is incompatible with the world of the > >> senses. --MJ}*** > > > >The problem we have in our individual interpretations of reality is that you > >think certain models are absurd, so you invent another model that I find > >absurd. > >You conclude that the "unseen world" is incompatible with the world of the > >senses while I see that we are surrounded by information and aspects of > >reality > >that are equally invisible to the senses, yet you believe in them. The > >difference between our approaches rest on how we judge the evidence that is > >presented to us by reality. I examine certain phenomena, evaluate whether > >they > >are real, then try to find an explanation. You on the other hand, look > >at the > >same phenomena and conclude that they are absurd because they can not be > >explained by your understanding of reality. There simply is no way out of > >such a > >conflict of viewpoints. > > ***{All I require, in order to qualify a claim as "possible," is that the > proponent of that claim do one of two things: > > (1) He may supply an explanation for the claim which does not conflict with > what I believe. > > (2) He may supply evidence that what I believe is wrong. > > If he does neither, then I quite naturally dismiss his claim. > > Since you seem to think the above procedure is unreasonable, here is my > question for you: if a person is not permitted to toss out a claim that > conflicts with what he knows, then what is the point of acquiring > knowledge? I suggest this is the wrong question to ask. The conditions you define are very reasonable. The problem is supplying evidence you would accept. What you, or anyone for that matter, will accept depends on your basic beliefs. For example, if you believe very strongly that the world is flat, you would not accept anything short of overwhelming evidence showing it to be round. Some people, such as myself, not having such strong beliefs about the subject, would see evidence in what you might call trivial observation. I would be the first to make the claim while you would fight the idea at every turn, all the while claiming to be reasonable and applying your two conditions to perfection. This is the nature of belief we all experience. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >> >> ***{Being able to reason requires one thing only: a command of language. > >> >> Since beliefs are held in the form of statements, they require > >>language as > >> >> well. That means we acquire the capacity to reason at exactly the > >>same time > >> >> we acquire the capacity to form beliefs. The implication: it is > >>impossible > >> >> to acquire beliefs before one is able to reason. --MJ}*** > >> > > >> >I suggest these assertions are at odds with a large body of psychological > >> >experience. A wide range of study shows that people and animals reason > >> >without the > >> >use of language. > >> > >> ***{Ed, I have stated very explicitly what I mean by reason, and you have > >> agreed with that definition. To refresh your memory, here it is again: > >> > >> (1) You state, as accurately as you can, the question to be answered. > >> > >> (2) You state, as accurately as you can, the various possible answers to > >> that question. > >> > >> (3) You systematically search for factual information that contradicts > >> those answers, until all of them have been eliminated but one. > >> > >> (4) The answer that remains, however implausible, is what you must accept > >> as the truth. > >> > >> Given that is what "reason" means, it is obviously nonsense to claim that > >> "A wide range of study shows that people and animals reason without the use > >> of language," because the entire process, as defined, is based on the use > >> of language. > > > >Mitchell, you have defined reason in a narrow way that suits your > >argument. This > >is not the general definition of reason. Using your definition, I agree > >animals > >do not "reason", for what that agreement is worth. > > ***{It is worthwhile for us to recognize and agree that animals lack the > tool (language) which is necessary to form abstract ideas, as well as the > tool (reason) which is necessary to evaluate them. > > Why is it useful? Because, if you will recall, this particular subthread > began when you said: > > "I suggest you have beliefs that you acquired before you were able to > reason and that these influence how you evaluate your present experiences." > > I took your usage of "beliefs" in the above as a reference to abstract > ideas, rather than as a reference to crude associations (e.g., image of > finger on hot frying pan evokes memory of pain) of the sort that a > pre-verbal child, or an animal, can acquire. Why did I make that > interpretation? Because your clear intent was to discuss matters that exert > important long-term influences on our lives, and it is not crude > associations ("percepts") which do that. Even in extreme cases where, for > example, a pre-verbal child is tortured by his parents, it is the thinking > and experiences that occur *after* a command of language (and, thus, the > ability to reason) is acquired, which will exert the overwhelmingly > dominant influence on his life. Like it or not, it is abstract ideas, not > crude perceptual associations, that determine what we become. > > Bottom line: reason can undo the bad effects of pre-verbal trauma, and of > post-verbal trauma as well, provided only that it is applied consistently > to all aspects of the person's life. Here we have a difference of opinion too large to resolve by discussion. Personal experience, training, and discussions with people who study the mind all conflict with your "bottom line" statement. Reasoning is useful in reducing trauma, but it is only one of the many tools essential for this process. Unfortunately, reasoning can only access a small part of the mind and its experiences. If you have had any experience with the insane, where the situation is most obvious, you would see this for yourself. We are all insane to some extent, so the example is appropriate. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >> What those studies actually show, in fact, is that some animals, > >> particularly mammals, choose--which means: they imagine what will happen if > >> they do A, then imagine what will happen if they do B, and choose on the > >> basis of imagined sensations of pleasure and pain. For example: a deer sees > >> a tiger crouched near a water hole, and imagines two sequences of events: > >> she gets a nice drink of cool clear water, after which she is killed and > >> eaten; or she drinks from the mud puddle at her feet, and lives. Result: > >> the pain associated with the first sequence of mental images prompts her to > >> drink from the mud puddle instead. > >> > >> Bottom line: the fact that animals choose does not imply that they reason. > > > >That is true. Reason, in the general definition, is not the same as an > >educated > >choice. Reason must involve an unseen, imagined situation that leads to a > >nonobvious choice. The apes and dolphins have been found to show this > >ability. > > ***{Apes and dolphins have very advanced abilities to generate expectations > (imagined sequences of events which will result if certain actions are > taken) and to choose on the basis of the pleasure-pain contents of those > expectations, but that is not the same thing as the ability to express > facts in the form of verbal constructs, or to manipulate such constructs in > accordance with the rules of logic. It is these latter abilities which, > traditionally, have been described as "reason," and that are responsible > for the enormous gulf which exists, in terms of capabilities and > accomplishments, between man and the other species that are known to > inhabit this planet. --MJ}*** The problem with your conclusion is that apes and dolphins do actually seem to have a form of language. People are starting to translate it into English so that we can understand them. Usually, we teach them English and let them talk to us. > > > >> In addition, your statement depends on how you define "belief". > >> >A person can acquire a "belief" in God by simply being raised in a > >>religious > >> >family > >> > >> ***{In my usage, a belief is a statement upholding some truth. As such, it > >> is of necessity couched in the terms of language. Hence belief, like > >> reasoning, requires the use of language. Result: it is impossible to > >> acquire beliefs before one can reason. > > > >I'm afraid, Mitchell, this is once again a narrow definition designed to > >fit your > >argument. > > ***{It isn't designed to "fit" my argument, Ed. That is, in fact, what I > mean by "belief." If we agreed to call it "gloob" instead, then I would > aver that gloob, like reasoning, requires the use of language, and, as a > result, that it is impossible to acquire gloobs before one can reason. > --MJ}*** Yours is not the common definition of belief. If you want to define gloobs as that which is impossible to acquire before one can reason, this is OK. Whether such a thing as gloobs actually exists now needs to be demonstrated. > > > A belief can be a verbal statement, but it also can result in an > >action requiring no language for its revelation. > > ***{Understanding can "result in an action requiring no language for its > revelation." For example, due to a moment of inattention, you find that the > wheels on the right side of your car are in the ditch. Correct > understanding, in that situation, will prompt you to steer back onto the > pavement without hitting the brake. That is an "action requiring no > language for its revelation." Note, however, that understanding and belief > are not the same thing. The proof: If I ask you whether you should hit the > brakes in that situation, you will say something such as: "If you hit the > brakes, you will spin out of control and roll your car." When you make that > statement, you express your *belief*. Understanding is the cause, and > belief is the effect. Hence understanding and belief are *not* the same > thing. --MJ}*** I agree, understanding and belief are different. Belief is an opinion based on a spectrum of events, some understood and some not, that colors every interpretation you make of your relationship to the world. For example, your belief that miracles can not occur causes you to reject observations supporting such unusual events and causes you to avoid trying to find an explanation, other than error and delusion. I could offer many more examples if I knew you better. We all are restrained by our beliefs, some people more than others. Most of these beliefs are invisible unless a person spends much time acquiring self-knowledge. Such self-knowledge can not be acquired by reasoning alone. > > > I suggest that most people have > >no idea how their beliefs control their actions - they just act without > >thinking > >or reasoning. > > ***{It is in the nature of animal consciousness that actions are controlled > by the expectation with the highest satisfaction total. (An expectation is > like a movie which you play in your head, by which you preview the effects > of taking a particular action. The satisfaction total of an expectation may > be positive or negative, and is obtained by subracting the total amount of > pain in the expectation from the total amount of pleasure. This subtraction > is performed automatically by a faculty which lies in the unconscious > mind.) In the case of man, however, it is possible to use linguistic tools > to tinker with, and modify, the crude perceptually based expectations that > arise automatically from our experiences. Result: we can break free of our > experiences, and follow pathways that *we* have created, whether for good > or for ill, depending on whether our modifications are based on reason, or > on something else. --MJ}*** I agree, breaking free of experience is the goal of self-knowledge. We differ in the role of reason and language in this effort. > > > >> Of course, one can acquire memories before one can use language, and one > >> can choose on the basis of those memories. For example, the pre-verbal > >> child touches the hot frying pan, burns the crap out of himself, and > >> remembers not to touch it again. Some would say that he now "believes" the > >> hot frying pan will burn him if he touches it, but that is not my usage. I > >> would say that he associates pain with the thought of touching the hot pan, > >> or, more accurately, that his expectation of touching the hot pan involves > >> pain. > > > >Yes, I agree. On the other hand, he can "believe" someone placed the hot pan > >there for the purpose of burning him. > > ***{A pre-verbal child might *understand* (or misunderstand) the situation > in that way. However, being pre-verbal, he could not express that > understanding in the form of a belief, and, thus, could not store that > expression in his conscious memories. Result: while he might take the hot > pan as being an expression of hostility--from his mother, say--he would > have no means of awareness of that understanding, save during those brief > moments when it was influencing his perception of an event. A belief--a > verbal construct expressing an understanding--is necessary to be aware of > what one understands, and is also necessary to convey one's understanding > to others. > > Since the ability to easily modify one's understandings is facilitated by a > command of language, lower animals tend become very set in their ways. For > example, there are a number of feral cats that hang around my house. They > were attracted here by the opportunity to sneak up and scavenge the > leftovers that remain after we feed our dogs, and, as is the norm for their > kind, they float somewhere in the netherworld between the state of > domestication and the truly wild. Result: on those not infrequent occasions > when I inadvertently step on one of their tails or feet, I can clearly see > that some assume malevolent intent, while others do not. It is my belief > that these differing modes of interpretation arise primarily out of the > differing innate understandings which they brought with them into the > world, which in turn arose due to the varying doses of wild type genetic > material that they acquired at the moment of conception. > > Moreover, since they lack language and, as a result, have far less ability > to modify their understandings than a human would have, some of them are > very difficult to buddy up to. For example, when I put food out for them > and sit right next to the bowl, some will come boldly up and eat, and will > even--albeit reluctantly--permit me to stroke them. Others, however, will > hang back, even if they are woefully in need of nourishment, as such > animals frequently are. > > Of course humans, despite having the ability to reason and, thus, far more > ability to modify inappropriate behavior than lower animals, seldom elect > to do so, and thus, by default, usually remain little more than animals > themselves. :-( I suggest the behavior you describe to totally controlled by experience, even in cats, and that with sufficient patience you would be able to offset such negative experience. I have had dogs and cats all my life and can say with complete certainty that this can be done. However, it seldom is worth the effort. On the other hand, eliminating such experience within ourselves is worth the effort and needs to be done outside of logic and what you consider to be language. Ed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 09:21:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA19631; Wed, 16 May 2001 09:19:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:19:11 -0700 Message-ID: <02c201c0de1b$4d6dd220$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Nuclear vs Coal? Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:16:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0DDF1.48DD66A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"2izGO3.0.Uo4.zXg0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42608 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0DDF1.48DD66A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you sure you want to go Nuclear? http://www.cmst.org/MAP/ORNL/ORLtab211_clint.html FJS ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0DDF1.48DD66A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Oak Ridge MAP - Table 2-1-1 History of operations.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Oak Ridge MAP - Table 2-1-1 History of operations.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cmst.org/MAP/ORNL/ORLtab211_clint.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cmst.org/MAP/ORNL/ORLtab211_clint.html Modified=E0C8E0D81ADEC00119 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0DDF1.48DD66A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 10:15:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09012; Wed, 16 May 2001 10:09:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:09:25 -0700 Message-ID: <002d01c0de20$6c950880$6a181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: "Matthew Rogers" Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:53:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5H-TX.0.jC2.4Hh0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42609 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Matt; Maybe if you live near one of these inventors they will show yous some technology that will humble you a little bit. Your awareness of technology is almost.Stone Age; I donn't like to be call an idiot and would love to enlighten you a little. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Rogers To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 8:48 PM Subject: RE: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >Why do you keep asking where people live ? > >Matthew Rogers >Prove it.. >Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bruce Meland [mailto:etimes@teleport.com] >Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 10:09 AM >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Cc: Robin van Spaandonk >Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing > >Hey Robin; Have you visited Pine Gap lately? Sounds like you have. Wind >and photovoltaics only operate when wind is blowing or sun is shining. Tesla >resonance devices work 24 hrs a day, no moving parts to wear out and more >cost effective. ie 1/2 waffle iron size puts out 1200 watts. Maybe one of >the 2 inventors that independently figured out the technology will take Eric >up on the offer. We are working on that. Do you know where Eric lives? >Bruce >-----Original Message----- >From: Robin van Spaandonk >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Date: Monday, May 14, 2001 3:51 PM >Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing > > >>In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 May 2001 16:52:51 -0400: >>[snip] >>>elsewhere, yet it can't stop wind power. So why doesn't The Conspiracy >take >>>effective steps to close down the industry? Is wind power too big already? >>>Okay, why didn't The Conspiracy crush it back in 1985 when wind had few >>>supporters and only millions, instead of billions, in income. >>[snip] >>Because it isn't just the replacement of the fossil fuel industry that >>is considered a "problem". It's the fact(?) that ZPE based devices >>relate to anti-gravity, and the peaceful races in the galaxy don't want >>belligerent xenophobic warmongering Earthlings bothering them. >> >> >>Regards, >> >>Robin van Spaandonk >> >>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >>New model hydrogen atom see >http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html >> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 10:24:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA13550; Wed, 16 May 2001 10:18:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:18:58 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Yucca Mountain Project statement seems reasonable Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:18:36 -0700 Message-ID: <005201c0de2c$3eb572e0$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010516101121.02941550@pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"Jze5b.0.bJ3.1Qh0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42610 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, The Romans gold mining operations were expensive in the terms of human lives and ecology. The slaves were worked to death drilling tunnels sideways through the mountains till the mountain was riddled with shafts and holes. Then they would, without removing the slaves, flush the entire system with water, collapsing the mountain, and the water would flush out the gold Onto a dry plain, where they could pick it up by hand. The Native Americans in the mid west would start huge forest fires at their campsites, just for fun, ( where do you think all the trees of the Midwest plains went to ?) and the British empire was worldwide taking everything of value, minerals, tusks, wood, drugs, without consequences to them. We do have some things to work on here today, such as exporting our industries and therefore our pollutions, and also not killing huge sections of ocean with are farming run off. But today we have it better then 100 years ago. The average lifespan of a man in the US was about 45 yrs, or so, so count yourself fortunate. Matthew Rogers Prove it.. Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell@infinite-energy.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 7:38 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yucca Mountain Project statement seems reasonable Mitchell Jones wrote: > >***{They are either waste, or they are useful material. It is never an either/or choice. Most materials are considered waste by some people in one era, and valuable goods later on. When oil was first refined, the kerosene was sold and the gasoline was thrown away. Until recently, when trees were cut for lumber, small branches were thrown away. Now they are often made into paper. In general, materials increase in utility over time while falling in monetary value. We learn to use materials more effectively, and recycle better, so the cost of materials as a fraction of production cost or personal income decreases. There is a widespread myth that our ancestors were frugal and made better use of materials than we do, and that people in less developed nations today "waste less" than first world people. Consider wooden ships. They were used for only 10 or 20 long distance voyages -- seldom more than 100. You often read of a ship "paying off on the first voyage." If it did not pay off in two or three trips (a year or two), it might never pay at all. People in China today waste far more energy and materials for every dollar of productivity than we do in the first world. The reason we pollute more and use more energy is because we have so many more goods per capita. >If the former, then > >they have been adequately disposed of; and if the latter, then I suppose > >they could at some future date be mined. . . . The best thing to do is dispose of them in a place our great-grandchildren will have little difficulty finding or opening up, in case they find a use for the material. The worst thing would be to hide the rad waste, or forget where we put it. We consider solid waste landfills a blight and a financial drain. They do threaten the environment, especially the water supply. The only thing they are good for is producing a little methane. However, with improved robotics and better recycling technology, I expect that in 100 or 200 years people will think of our landfills are gold mines -- literally. Landfills will be considered cheap, concentrated sources of lead, mercury, gold, aluminum and much else. Archeologists will have a field day with them. Trash and garbage buried in the early 1950s has recently been recovered and found amazingly intact. The newspapers are still readable and some corn that was recovered may even be edible. Essentially, an older landfill is a great way preserve goods and prevent biodegredation. Some of the more modern ones are better suited to breaking down organic materials. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 10:38:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18312; Wed, 16 May 2001 10:32:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:32:15 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Radioactive materials Yucca Mount. Neutralized. Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:31:53 -0700 Message-ID: <005401c0de2e$19952300$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3B02685D.38001BDF@ihug.co.nz> Resent-Message-ID: <"_VF042.0.2U4.Uch0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42611 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It appears that the Gamma Rays emitted will induce radioactive decay with both fast and slow neutrons. This effect was predicted long ago, and observed in the 50's. There is some interesting information at www.globalatomics.com .As of now, I haven't finished reviewing all their material, but in effect they are using an outside energy source, an electron beam directed to a target, which emits gamma rays, to induce radioactive decay, and therefore transmute heavy unstable radioactive isotopes into lighter non radioactive isotopes. In the process you generate huge amounts of heat, so there may be commercial power generated by the reduction of nuclear waste, and fuel. The interesting thing is, at no time do they use any amount of critical mass, so ass soon as they shut off the Gamma source, the reaction stops. Sounds like a very safe power generation design, and if so, then it also will use waste as fuel, not create it. Matthew Rogers Prove it.. Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. -----Original Message----- From: John Berry [mailto:antigrav@ihug.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 4:46 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radioactive materials Yucca Mount. Neutralized. Only on alphas? John Schnurer wrote: > ========= This patent works ======= > > 4,961,880 Wm. Barker. > > Briefly: > > Material is exposed to field for 12 to 16 hours. One time and one > time only. After this the Radioactive Material, or RM abbreviated, > ....under its own mechanisms ...gives off its radioactivity in months > instead of thousands of years. > > On Wed, 16 May 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Tue, 15 May 2001 10:31:26 > > -0500: > > [snip] > > >***{They are either waste, or they are useful material. If the former, then > > >they have been adequately disposed of; and if the latter, then I suppose > > >they could at some future date be mined. But as a matter of curiosity, what > > >use for them do you have in mind? --MJ}*** > > > > US4835433. (If it works as claimed). > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 11:08:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA31004; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:03:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:03:27 -0700 Message-ID: <009b01c0de27$f74726a0$6a181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:47:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"1R6XM1.0.Ia7.k3i0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42612 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes I am aware of the National Security- Military scenario that they enforce, but i think it is more important that the elite and big energy corporations want to control our pocketbooks . By controlling the energy supply, especially us gluttonous Americans, they can control us entirely. The military already has this technology. If this technology would leak to China or Russia it would take 20 years to get it perfected into military machines. And by that time the whole planet would need the technology for survival. So everyone would be on an equal basis. This enemy BS is used just to keep the big corps happy cranking out military machines. Including Teslas particle beam weaponry. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ford To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 11:28 AM Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >At 08:07 AM 5/15/01 -0700, you wrote: >>Wind power and photovoltaics only work when windy or sunny. These devices >>work 24 hrs a day and no moving parts. Half of a waffle iron size puts out >>1200 watts. National Security stuff. although no one be it Fedaral >>Marshalls, Swat Teams, CIA ever told the inventors why. One your are >>targeted it is difficult. To be targeted you have to have revolutionary >>technology. Bruce > >Revolutionary Energy and National Security? > >You do not understand why? It is simple enough. If you have something >that produces infinite energy then you could power A war machine with no >fuel cost. > >However. > >The Federal Marshall is more interested in actually enforcing Federal law >that is on the books. SWAT is Special Weapons And Tactics and these teams >are attached to local law enforcement agencies. CIA Central Intelligence >Agency is more concerned with what is going on abroad. Intelligence is NOT >security. Also there is the FBI which is a law enforcement agency and ATF >Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, Texas Rangers and so on. > >Finally you are missing one agency. NSA National Security Agency. This >is a military run organization that is responsible for internal security of >the country. These are the people who would be following scientists about >and checking into this list. If the NSA chooses to raid a lab that means >that many people have fallen down on the job internally to there own >organization. Orders to cease operation had not ben issued or followed. > >They would show up in dull grey vans waring clothing that helps them blend >into the background and they would take over a lab and keep position of it >by invoking about a dozen Federal possessory regulations. Of course you >would not be out on the street to tell about it. > >5 Black choppers. This is a security measure. Code or other security >materials my be delivered this way. The object is which one of the five to >you capture. Each will have for example a set of code books but only one of >them is the real one. When carrying secure materials they would more >likely travel separately then return home together. This method is not >employed by the US military but several of the large corporate operations >might do this. > >This method is probably the place where the movie folks got the idea for >the black choppers. >Charlie Ford > >KC5-OWZ >cjford1@yahoo.com >cjford1@swbell.net > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 11:14:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA01512; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:11:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:11:23 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010516135342.02925478@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:11:28 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Yucca Mountain Project statement seems reasonable In-Reply-To: <005201c0de2c$3eb572e0$1f962640@bear> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010516101121.02941550@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"b4bzM.0.YN.BBi0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42613 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Matthew Rogers wrote: > The Native Americans in the mid west would start huge forest > fires at their >campsites, just for fun, ( where do you think all the trees of the Midwest >plains went to ?) . . . They did not do it for fun, they did it to improve hunting and to preserve the health of the forests. North American forests are healthiest when they undergo periodic fires. When the fires are too long apart, disease and insects spread, the trees become too crowded, and deadwood piles up so that when fires do come, they are so intense they kill mature trees. Twentieth century fire suppression efforts were misguided, counterproducive, and unnatural. See: http://www.idahoforests.org/health2b.htm QUOTES: . . . in a matter of decades---an eye-blink of ecological time---many forests went from a regular fire regime to a nonfire regime. The ecological impacts were significant, and many are still not well documented by scientists. Some facts are generally agreed upon, however. Forests where regular ground fires kept brush and young trees in check began to change once fire was eliminated. Forests of massive, widely spaced oaks in the East, and pines in the South and West---the savanna structures---began to be filled in with species that could thrive in the shady conditions. As these newcomers grew larger and more competitive, the older trees often failed to survive. Forest diversity diminished as savannas gave way to dense forests. Open structures such as meadows and recovering burned areas diminished, as trees began to fill in the open spaces in the landscape. . . . On the basis that these studies might be indicative of the wider region of general forest types in terms of the wildfire hazards that they face. This suggests that the more separated a system becomes from its historical fire regime, the greater the possibility of increased wildfire intensity and severity, which can translate into additional damage to the soil, as well as the forest biota. . . . In a frustrating paradox, our increasing human effectiveness at fire suppression itself has led to more devastating wildfires, because not only did forests change with the suppression of fire, but fire behavior itself changed as well. Success in keeping fires out assured, in many situations, that the amount of available fuels increased. . . . END QUOTE I am not sure what "midwest plains" refers to. There have not been trees in great plains any time since humans evolved. Anyway, I do not see the relevance of this discussion. I suggest you label it OFF TOPIC. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 11:29:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07315; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:27:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:27:32 -0700 Message-ID: <002201c0de2b$5791b220$e5181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:12:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"kyVVO.0.Do1.KQi0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42615 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ask one of the Swat Teams; They took one on one of their later raids. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 10:52 PM Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Tue, May 15, 2001 10:09 AM >[snip] >>and photovoltaics only operate when wind is blowing or sun is shining. Tesla >>resonance devices work 24 hrs a day, no moving parts to wear out and more >>cost effective. >[snip] >Great, where do I get one? > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 11:30:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03806; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:18:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:18:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3B02B73F.25422571@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:22:37 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7_oTt2.0.Kx.THi0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42614 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > [This is the continuation of the previous message.] > > That would involve abstract reasoning > >using an imagined situation. > > ***{It is my view that the assumption of hostile intent is strongly > influenced by innate tendencies--i.e., by the core understandings that are > encoded into the unconscious mind when an individual comes into the world. > It is the strength of such tendencies, in fact, that determines the > placement of non-humans on the continuum connecting the wild state to the > state of domestication, and, for humans, strongly influences their > positions on the continuum from criminal to non-criminal. Animality and > criminality are kissing cousins, as it were. :-) --MJ}*** I agree, we can come into the world with tendencies to interpret reality in certain ways. However, we differ because you believe this is the only factor while I believe experience plays an even bigger role. Of course, the initial tendency colors our later experience and can either add to the initial tendency or subtract from it. In any case, self-knowledge requires this experience be understood at levels not reached by reasoning or language. > > > Granted, such a conclusion would not be considered > >rational or normal. Nevertheless, people do come to such conclusions, and > >from > >such reasoning develop a belief that they are being influenced by unseen > >forces > >or people. > > ***{For example, that they are being influenced by dead people. Indeed, we > are quite seriously discussing that possibility right now. The only > difference, in my case, is that I am saying that the dead person was me in > a former life, and that the mode of influence arises by the application of > the law of identity to the defining characteristics I possessed at the end > of that former life--to wit: when, after the end of my earlier life, a new > child came into the world with the understandings I had then, he of > necessity had to be me. > > Of course, what you had in mind was people burdened by *irrational* beliefs > about unseen influences. However, I am not yet entirely sure that the > various opinions we have been discussing here are entirely rational. As > noted previously, I was a believer in "the big sleep" for virtually all of > my life, save the last couple of years, and despite my present inability to > defend that view, I continue to suspect that it may be true. My belief on the subject has grown to be more complex than we have been discussing here. I find evidence that a form of intelligence exists in the world we experience after death, but this intelligence and awareness is much different from what we experience here. Therefore, to say that we exist after death is not completely accurate. Part of our knowledge and awareness exists, but which part is hard to say. People who have achieved a high level of self awareness apparently retain more of their "self" than do people who have not gone to this effort. Occasionally, some part of a dead person gets implanted into a baby, who then has memories of this person. It is a stretch to say that the baby is now a reincarnate of the other person. The evidence seems to indicate that the two worlds can communicate, but with difficulty and in strange ways. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >> As to whether a child can acquire a belief in God simply by virtue of being > >> raised in a religious family, it depends on the child, upon the degree of > >> talent for reasoning that he brings with him into the world, upon the > >> amount of coercion his parents are willing to apply to force his thoughts > >> into the desired mold, upon his freedom to escape from his parents if they > >> mistreat him, and on many other things. > > > >The process is very subtle and not affected by reasoning. It is called brain > >washing when applied to an adult. > > ***{Brainwashing involves the holding of targeted individuals in a state of > captivity, the creation of a climate of intense fear, and, within that > context, forcing the victims to pay lip service to propaganda. The > technique is very powerful because the habitual responses that are thereby > engendered have an abnormal compelling force. Result: if the individual > should ever escape into a situation where such lip service is not required, > he will discover that the habits so acquired are extraordinarily difficult > to change. > > Why do such habits have abnormal force and resistance to change? Because > the state of fear, physiologically, bespeaks a threat to life. Naturally, a > threat to life begets a much more focused and intense response than a > non-threatening stimulus: natural selection operated to make sure that was > the case. (I call such habits *emergency habits*, by the way.) Fear is one tool, but others exist. Reward is also a powerful method to change behavior. Appealing to self image through staged events is another. TV does a good job of causing people to change their behavior, in this case what they buy and what they think is important in behavior. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > Enough is now known about how the brain works > >that a skilled person can change the reality of anyone under the right > >circumstances. > > ***{Incorrect. It is impossible to change the worldview of a person who is > determined to not be influenced, providing only that he recognizes what the > situation requires--i.e., that he must either escape, or die trying. I agree, some people would be more difficult to change than others. Some would not be worth the effort. However, the principle remains, such tools are now available. Proving this fact is not possible because those who are changed would not know what had happened and those doing the changing would not want to give the game away. We are all subjected to aspects of these methods. Fortunately, the result is not usually harmful and, in many cases, necessary for society to function. > > --MJ}*** > > In the case of a child, the process is easy and can be done > >without any physical harm being used. > > ***{A climate of fear must be created, in order to give the habits abnormal > force. Without it, the habits which will be formed will be of the ordinary > sort, and will be easily changed by means of reasoning. When the would-be > brainwasher is dealing with individualists--i.e., people whose > understandings, whether innate or acquired, do not dispose them to fear > other people--there is no way to create a climate of fear, unless one is > willing to do physical harm. When dealing with collectivists, on the other > hand, the threat is as good as the deed. Since most people on this planet > are the product of defective genetic material, they come into the world > with an innate fear of other people--i.e., as collectivists--and, as such, > are prepared to submit to a tyrant. Result: they will imagine that one is > present even if he does not exist, and in most cases go through their lives > paying mindless lip-service to whatever propaganda they were exposed to > during their formative years. Attempts to change such people, by and large, > are as pointless as trying to "buddy-up" to feral cats. --MJ}*** My my, this is a cynical view of your fellow man. While I agree, humanity contains a wide spectrum of stupid behavior, false belief, and defective genes, most people are not so bad off. On the other hand, most people are easily manipulated using the tools I referred to above. You are obviously not one of them. The more a person understands these tools and how they are applied, the more difficult manipulation becomes. On the other hand, manipulation is essential to get people to work together for a common good; greed and self interest being so strong in the human character. > > > The person has no way of knowing that his > >reality has changed. > > ***{By means of reason, one can comprehend the influence that past trauma > has had, and, given sufficient time, one can undo those influences. > However, it takes far more time to overcome emergency habits than ordinary > habits, and so a mature adult, particularly a person of advanced years, > should simply refuse to put up with the process. For such persons the > proper course, as noted above, is to escape or die trying. You may die a > bit sooner than would have been the case otherwise, but at least you will > die as the person you wanted to be, rather than as the person some drooling > halfwit wanted you to be. (As a matter of related interest: I have an old > manuscript that I wrote many years ago, entitled *Brainwashing American > Style*, which is a book-length analysis of the indoctrination process as > practiced in our public schools, in the parental home, in street gangs, in > prisons, in foster homes, etc. Brainwashing, truth be told, is as American > as apple pie! :-) It is, in fact, the process by which the country was > destroyed.) --MJ}*** I think a good argument can be made for brain washing being necessary to form a country, any country. Naturally, such a tool can also be used to destroy if it is used unwisely. For example, Hitler was a master at brain washing a population. He was on his way toward making Germany a great country when he went insane. His application of the same tools then led to their destruction. Our leaders try to use these tools, but thank heavens they are rank amateurs. Bush is the least skill in this respect we have seen in a long while. For this reason, he will have little impact on the future, except to allow social deterioration to continue. > > > >> (or in your case, the opposite result > >> > >> ***{When I said I never believed in God, I did not mean my parents were > >> atheists. They were, in fact, believers; and they attempted to pass their > >> beliefs on to me. However, I considered those ideas to be absurd from the > >> very first time I heard them, back when I was two or three. (Yeah, I know: > >> I was a bizarre kid. I never believed in Santa Claus, either. :-) --MJ}*** > > > >Clearly, your powers of reasoning developed much earlier and to a greater > >extent > >than is the case for most people. Your unique experience can not be > >applied to > >the general human race. Whether you could have been "taught" a belief in > >religion is not for me to say without knowing you much better. > >> However, a "belief" in the Second > >> >Law, I admit requires some logic and language. > >> > >> ***{Understandings result from the reasoning that one does, or from the > >> lack thereof--which means: the less one reasons about one's experiences, > >> the more vulnerable one becomes to the influence of one's > >> "environment"--i.e., other people. The fact that beliefs and reasoning both > >> require language, in other words, merely means that one has the > >> *opportunity* to base one's beliefs on reasoning, not that one must > >> necessarily do so. --MJ}*** > > > >The problem I'm talking about is most visible in the people we call insane. > >These people use logic and reason very well. The problem is that their logic > >starts from a nonrational premise. The trouble is that we all are "insane" to > >some extent. All of the premises we use are to some degree incomplete and > >irrational. As you discovered in our debate, I start from a different premise > >than you do, hence arrive at a different conclusion using logic and reasoning. > >The fault does not lie in the ability to reason. > > > >> > >> > >> >> In addition, we > >> >> >all, no matter how logical, are influenced by our experiences in > >> >> >nonlogical ways. > >> >> > >> >> ***{That is true of people who reject reason or who apply it > >> >> inconsistently. For people who accept reason and apply it consistently, > >> >> however, it is only to the extent that they make mistakes, that their > >> >> experiences influence them in illogical ways. --MJ}*** > > > >Once again, you assume the ideal, i.e. accept reason and apply it > >consistently. > >Can you say that you apply reasoning consistently to all things? Have you > >ever > >been in love? > > ***{When I hear the word "love," I reach for my revolver. :-) --MJ}*** > > >> >"To the extent that they make mistakes", now there is another rub. I > >> >suggest a > >> >more useful description is "to the extent that logic fails". > >> > >> ***{That would certainly be "more useful" if one wanted an excuse to > >> abandon logic. But without logic, one cannot reason, and reason is the most > >> powerful instrument one has for finding the truth. Therefore, why would one > >> abandon the most powerful instrument one has for finding the truth? The > >> answer: one would do that only if the goal were to surrender oneself to the > >> influences of "environment"--which means: to "fit in" with "significant > >> others" rather than to find the truth. This is, in fact, precisely why all > >> religions, and all religious cults, explicitly disavow logic and reason, > >> and encourage their followers to rely instead on blind faith, "holy" books, > >> the supposed "wisdom" of "holy" men, etc. (It is hard to separate a man > >> from his wallet, if you encourage him to judge everything, including your > >> teachings, on the basis of reason. :-) --MJ}*** > > > >In religion, faith is applied only to the basic belief. Reasoning is then > >used > >to arrive at the conclusions the belief implies. For example you have as > >a basic > >belief that a supreme universal intelligence (a God) does not exist. You can > >not arrive at this belief from reasoning > > ***{Of course you can. "God" is just a hypothesis put forth to explain the > existence of the universe, and, even from the perspective of a child, "God" > is not the simplest explanation of the facts. When I was about 3, for > example, I remember asking my grandfather the following question: "If God > created everything, where did God come from?" and I remember my acute > disappointment when he replied, "God always existed." Why was I > disappointed? Because the only reason "God" was required was as an > explanation for the existence of the universe. And if God could have always > existed, then, obviously, the universe could have always existed as well. > By having recourse to such an explanation, in other words, my grandfather > had ripped the foundation from under his own belief. [By the way, the > reason I think I was about 3 is that I remember the scene in the room > vividly, when I asked that question, because I was very nervous about > asking it. Thus I recall that my grandfather towered over me like a giant, > and that the top of his kitchen table, which had a red and white "oilcloth" > table cloth on it, was slightly above my eye level.] > > As I became older, of course, I discovered other, more powerful arguments > to the same end. For example, the principle of continuity--that no thing > may come into existence out of nothing or vanish into nothing--precludes > the possibility of the universe coming into existence out of nothing, and, > thus, proves that the universe always existed and that God does not exist. First of all, the concept of "God" is only a mechanism to focus the mind on a potential reality and the word has many meanings. When you argue that God does not exist, you need to define which meaning you are rejecting. Do you reject a universal intelligence, a unifying force in nature, a personal interaction with the unseen reality, a concept used for social power, or any one of many other definitions. A person can reject the idea that God created the universe without rejecting any of the above. On the other hand, a person can simply admit he is too ignorant to even answer the question, hence has no opinion one way or the other. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > [snip] > > >> Bottom line: when people do not move toward the truth, the fault does not > >> lie in reason, but in themselves. > > > >True, but as I argued above, you can not change a belief using reasoning. All > >you can do is to show that your basic belief is inconsistent with the other > >belief, using logic. This process does not show which belief is correct. > > ***{If two people remain civil to one another long enough, while continuing > to discuss a point of disagreement, the conversation will eventually begin > to focus on the premises by which they differ, and upon the reasoning by > which they uphold those premises. It is only at that point, and then only > if both parties are committed to finding the truth, that opinions can be > changed. > > Unfortunately, such conditions are almost never met: people seldom remain > civil when arguing; and they seldom persist; and it is rare that both > parties are committed to finding the truth. Result: opinions are seldom > changed by arguments, as you say. > > Nevertheless, when the right conditions are met, opinions can be changed, > and even when they are not, such exchanges greatly enhance understanding, > and are worthwhile on that ground alone. I agree with your latter statement. However, except for lightly held beliefs, discussion alone will not change important belief no matter long it goes on. The discussion will only allow the two people to understand how they differ and to respect these differences. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >> >> complex matter can apparently be moved in > >> >> >and out of our reality at will by certain individuals. > >> >> > >> >> ***{I have no doubt that Sai Baba can make his followers money disappear, > >> >> for example. :-) --MJ}*** > >> > > >> >His follower's money is used to build schools in India that teach > >> >technology. Sai > >> >Baba accepts no money for himself. > >> > >> ***{Does he have a house? A car? Servants? An office? Employees? If so, > >> then he derives benefits from his followers' money, irrespective of the > >> bookkeeping practices that he employs. --MJ}*** > > > >We all must live and resources must be provided for that purpose. Sai Baba > >receives resources from his followers for this purpose in the same manner > >as we > >all obtain resources for what we do. The issue is whether he takes more > >than is > >reasonable and how he uses the excess. He is not ripping off his > >followers, as > >your statement would imply, but he is using money given willingly to > >improve the > >Indian society. This is done through a foundation run by other people. > > > >> > >> > >> He believes for India to come out of the dark > >> >ages, technology must be applied throughout society. His goal is to > >> >provide the > >> >means to teach how this tool should be developed and used for the benefit > >> >of his > >> >country and eventually the world. While he carries a message from the > >>other > >> >reality, he also recognizes what is needed in this world to allow his basic > >> >message to have meaning. His basic message is the same as Christ and many > >> >other > >> >people have taught the subject, i.e. we are not isolated individuals > >> > >> ***{In a division-of-labor society, we all specialize; and we depend on the > >> mechanism of trade to obtain values produced by others. In that sense, we > >> are all interdependent. --MJ}*** > > > >The view of not being isolated individuals has nothing to do with economics or > >division of labor. It has to do with the very essence of our existence. > >Economics and division of labor produces conflict. > > ***{No, the opportunity to acquire property by means of force or the threat > of force creates conflict, because so long as such opportunities exist, > natural selection will be unable to eliminate the defective genes that > render such opportunities attractive. Result: the predators will forever > remain among us, so long as we continue to tolerate governments which have > the power to violate property rights "in the public interest." --MJ}*** I suggest you have an obsession about property rights and this blinds your thinking about other possibilities. In any case, the situation you resent will not change no matter how much we discuss it. > > > The situation he is talking > >about is designed to eliminate conflict. He is saying that we are all > >alike in > >the most basic of ways > > ***{And I totally disagree. There are very basic differences between > people. I, for example, am not a predator, which means I am not "one" with > those who are attracted to the opportunity to acquire property by means of > force or the threat of force, and I would, given the chance, instantly take > myself to a society which did not tolerate such activities. Unfortunately, > no such societies presently exist. --MJ}*** I person who understands the concept of love and respect for the universal character of mankind is not a predator and would not act as you so very much resent. In this area, you and Sai Baba totally agree and are on the same side. > > > and that we should value each other (love) as we would > >value our closest relative. > > ***{I do not "love" human predators or consider them to be "brothers." And > I particularly despise the unclean ways in which their minds work, always > seeking and finding excuses--e.g., furthering the "public interest," or > "serving mankind," or whatever--to provide cover for their short-sighted, > immoral, animalistic schemings. --MJ}*** The problem is to change their "unclean" minds. You can do this by argument and get nowhere or you can show them a better behavior. Sai Baba is trying to make this change by showing people that another reality exists and that this reality is more important in the long run than this one. He is having a profound impact in India and I predict his message will spread. His goal is the same as yours, only the methods differ. > > > >> , but part of > >> >a universal conscious > >> > >> ***{Our streams of consciousness are ultimately and irreducibly separate: I > >> see through my eyes, but cannot see through yours; you see through your > >> eyes, but cannot see through mine; and so on. These are unarguable, > >> irrefutable, bedrock metaphysical facts. --MJ}*** > > > >That is not a fact. There are people who have the ability to see through > >my eyes > >as well as yours. You just have not taken the trouble to meet such people. > > ***{If Sai Baba can see through the eyes of others, he must be a hell of a > poker player! :-) The reality, however, is that if he sits across the table > from Texas Slim for a few hours, he will go home in a barrel just like > everybody else. (And that outcome, of course, will flatly prove the > falsehood of his claim.) We will never know because Sai Baba does not play poker. On the other hand, he has sat across from people I know and trust, and told them details about their lives even their wives did not know. Everyone who has been in his presence has been amazed about his insights into their personal lives. This is not an ordinary man! > > > I would add that if anyone actually had such an ability, and used it > without the permission of the person whose mind they invaded, they would be > an even more thoroughgoing criminal than the hacker who mucks about in your > computer without your permission. Worse: power corrupts, and absolute power > corrupts absolutely--which means: any person with such an ability would > quickly degenerate into a being of the most utter loathsomeness that can be > imagined. Thus while falsely claiming to possess such a power would bespeak > evil, a person who actually had it would be, or become, a demon straight > from Hell. Fortunately, we don't have to worry about the latter > possibility, since such claims are obvious nonsense. If an ordinary man had these powers, I agree this would be the outcome. The simple fact is that Sai Baba does not use this information except to help the individual. His use of this information for good is a demonstration of his love and that he is not an ordinary man. As for being obvious nonsense, I still suggest you read something about the man and talk to people who have actually experienced his presence. The subject is too important to dismiss lightly. > > > I would also note that technology will eventually develop to the point > where it will be possible to plant "thought probes" in people's brains > which can transmit the contents of their fields of consciousness to > external receivers and display them on computer screens, enabling others to > monitor what they are thinking. And when that day arrives, we had all > better hope most fervently that we live in a free country--i.e., a country > where the government does not have the power to violate property rights in > what it deems to be "the public interest"--because if it has such a power, > then you can be damned sure "compelling national security concerns," or > some other similar string of animalistic, subhuman verbiage, will spew > forth to "justify" the most profound invasion of privacy that is possible. > If such a day ever comes, I will take my first opportunity to exit from > that country, or from this life, because I will *not* submit to predatory, > subhuman, immoral vermin telling me what to think. I agree and I would join you if this should happen. You might also hope that the message that Sai Baba is teaching becomes more universal. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >> and that we should love each another like bothers (sisters) > >> >because we are all of one family. > >> > >> ***{Taken literally, the above statement would imply that you should love > >> Hitler, Stalin, John Wayne Gacy, and the Boston Strangler "like brothers." > >> But, of course, you don't. The question, therefore, is this: why do you > >> affirm a moral precept that you do not, cannot, and should not practice? > >> --MJ}*** > > > >As you well know, just because all people do not practice an approach in the > >perfect way, does not make the approach wrong. In addition, a difference > >exists > >between loving someone, such as Hitler, and protecting oneself from his > >aberrations. Love does not imply that you must give in to the loved one at > >every > >turn or that you must agree with their views. > > ***{Why do you feel obligated to feel "love" for that which, in reason, > ought to be loathed and despised? Indeed, for a person capable of doing > that, what can "love" possibly mean? To love *everyone*, after all, is to > make no distinction whatsoever among people, in terms of what you feel > toward them. To love everyone, in short, is to love no one. --MJ}*** The old statement, "love the person and hate the behavior", applies here. The word "love" has too many meanings in English to properly convey the attitude. Sai Baba means that a person should respect the basic, core aspect of each person while working to change that person's behavior. In contrast, Hitler did not "love" the Jews in this respect, so he did not value each individual life and saw no reason not to kill them all. Ironically, the Jews are now applying this same attitude to the Palestinians. > > > It only means that you will treat > >them with kindness and consideration when that is possible > > ***{I would not treat Hitler, or Stalin, or John Wayne Gacy, or the Boston > Strangler, or Son of Sam, or any other piece of predatory, subhuman vermin > with "kindness and consideration," except in circumstances where I was in > their power. Otherwise, I would dispatch them into their next lives with > haste, with satisfaction, and without regret. --MJ}*** > > , that you will not be > >distracted by hatred > > ***{Hatred, when directed at the proper target, is a good thing. And it is > only by means of reason that we can decide which targets are proper, and > which are not. --MJ}*** Boy, is that statement wrong! Hitler used reason to decide that the Jews were bad and needed to be eliminated. This reason was so good it got the support of millions of otherwise nice people. Reason can be used to justify anything. > > > , and that you will seek the highest goal for all concerned. > > ***{"For all concerned" would include the above named predators. But why > should we be concerned with them or with what they want? They each > demonstrated, by the way they lived their lives, that they were not > concerned about the goals or desires of others, and so they have no basis > for arguing that we should exhibit concern for their goals and desires. No > person may claim the protection of a principle that he violates. --MJ}*** One man's predator is another man's hero. It just depends on who is taking from whom. The problem is to change basic attitudes so that the process never gets started. You have a strong, absolute opinion about the subject which if not shared by most people will never have any effect on the problem. On the other hand, Sai Baba is having an effect. > > > >This, naturally, is not easy to do. > > ***{Yup: resisting the clear mandate of reason can be difficult. Thus I > have taken the easy path: I do not resist. :-) --MJ}*** > > In the case of Hitler, I would kill the > >bastard as quickly as possible, for the good of all concerned. However, I > >would > >do this with regret and without satisfaction. > > ***{By virtue of such feelings, you succumb to the con-game of religion, > whose practitioners seek to always keep us in a state of guilt, so that > they can control us. I suggest that you clear such nonsense from your mind > by admitting a simple fact: if you send a monster into the great beyond, > you are entitled to feel damn proud of yourself. The fact of the matter is > that if any of those who tried to kill Hitler had succeeded, they would > have shortened the war, and saved millions of lives on both sides. They > would have been true heroes, and, as such, were entitled to act with > satisfaction and without regret. --MJ}*** Perhaps I would feel glad as well. Unfortunately, it is only after he has killed so many people a person could say that killing him was a good thing. Early in his career he looked like a good leader for Germany. We have seen worse in this country, leaders who fortunately did not go insane. As for guilt, this feeling only occurs when we fail to met goals we have set for ourselves. It is a reminder to do better. To consider it a con game is to miss the point. > > > >> This simple message has profound implications > >> >that would take a whole literature to explore, as has been done already. > >> > >> ***{A good way to start comprehending the implications is to observe the > >> misery that exists in third-world hell-holes such as India, where this sort > >> of message has been immensely popular for a very long time. With sufficient > >> reflection, it may perhaps begin to cross the mind that what India needs is > >> a government which is constitutionally bound to protect property rights, > >> and that the primary obstacle to its obtaining such a government is the > >> widespread belief of its people that we are all one--i.e., that individual > >> consciousness, and individual rights, do not exist. --MJ}*** > > > >India is a complex country with more religions than people can count. That is > >has survived at all is a miracle. To get from where it is, a situation > >created > >by the British > > ***{I disagree. India was far, far better off under British rule than they > are today, under the democratic fascist tyranny imposed by Ghandi and his > successors. Even better, of course, would be a free and independent India, > under capitalism. There is, however, no chance of that. --MJ}*** You might be interested to learn that they are well on their way to capitalism. > > > , to where it must be will take more than such a government. > >Indeed, the creation of such a government is impossible under the present > >circumstances, but not because of this belief which is not widely shared > >even in > >India. > > ***{Oh, please, of course it is. The notion of a universal consciousness of > which each person is a part is fundamental to all of the Eastern Religions, > bar none. Hell, it is a belief that is shared, in one form or another, even > by the vast majority of the cults in that area of the world. --MJ}*** Of course, the notion of a universal consciousness of which each person is a part is fundamental to all of the Eastern Religions. However, not everyone has this attitude or practices it in his life. Just because a belief is held up as the ideal does not mean it is actually practiced by people. That is the problem Sai Baba is trying to fix. > > > The country needs to become prosperous and have enough property in the > >hands of the general population to make such a government useful to the > >majority. > > ***{No majority in India will ever opt for capitalism, because it is a > system the workings of which are beyond the present power of the Indian > masses to comprehend, and because the brutal tyranny that rules present-day > India will not permit any change in that state of affairs. The power to > "educate" is the power to destroy minds, and it is a power that will always > be used, by governments who fear the judgment of reason. --MJ}*** > > >> >> This implies the existence > >> >> >of a reality in which this matter and information can be stored and/or > >> >>moved. > >> >> > >> >> ***{Yup: Sai Baba's bank account. :-) --MJ}*** > >> > > >> >Rather than being sarcastic, I suggest you learn something about Sai > >>Baba. I > >> >predict you will be surprised. > >> > >> ***{Actually, I was trying to be amusing. I even had a smiley at the end. > >> --MJ}*** > > > >Have you ever read anything about the man? > > ***{Only your comments. --MJ}*** > > Amazon.com lists 106 books on the > >subject. Pick one and then we can both smile. > > ***{When time permits, perhaps I will. Which do you recommend? --MJ}*** I suggest "Sai Inner Views and Insights" by Howard Murphet. This book gives some history and personal experience and is easy to read. I'm in the process of reading "A Catholic Priest Meets Sai Baba" by DonMazzoleni and I will let you know my impressions when I'm finished. Ed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 11:56:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15340; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:48:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:48:11 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01c0de2e$3928a200$8b181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: "Matthew Rogers" Cc: , Subject: Fw:Lunchtime. Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:32:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"yCgzQ1.0.cl3.gji0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42616 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Can anyone help me get in touch with Eric, the $5,000 offer person, as I tried to email him, to get the particulars of his offer, and he has not replied. Maybe one of you have the particulars of the offer or are they on his website? Website? thanks Bruce . Present day nuke stuff is Ice age compared to this shit. They have a very difficult time (even if they have a Nobel under there belt for physics) relating to our shit because there is nothing they can compare it to. Thank god the energy prices are soaring. The inventor eats pH. D's for lunch. And does not even burp when he is done. I'm not that good yet. But I will keep trying from the non Technical side. I tell them up front that I'm non technical and then start talking about a radical new Tech. using a general description that is far beyond them. It screws them up everytime so far. And then I have him talk to them in circles. So far it has been a perfect combination. As you can see we have fun. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 12:15:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA23396; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:08:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:08:04 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <02c201c0de1b$4d6dd220$aeb4bfa8@computer> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:04:34 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Nuclear vs Coal? Resent-Message-ID: <"IyPxG1.0.Sj5.J0j0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42617 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Are you sure you want to go Nuclear? > > http://www.cmst.org/MAP/ORNL/ORLtab211_clint.html > >FJS ***{Hi Fred. That's a great link. Thanks. And, yes, I'm sure. Nuclear power *reduces* the total amount of radioactivity in the environment, by extracting the uranium and burning it in reactors, thereby preventing it from undergoing slow spontaneous fissions underground, and releasing the members of its decay chain into ground water and into the air. Coal fired power, on the other hand, because of the immense volume of the materials, releases far more elements from the uranium decay chain into the environment than does nuclear power. (See, for example, http://www.ornl.gov/ORNLReview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html.) As noted in the referenced paper: "The population effective dose equivalent from coal plants is 100 times that from nuclear plants." Thus when coal is compared to nuclear, the following facts apply: (1) The energy productivity (energy produced per worker) of uranium (yellowcake) mining is much greater than than of coal mining--which means: far fewer workers are exposed to accidents, for a given amount of energy extracted, than are exposed in coal mining. (Even Jed has now acknowledged this, albeit while implying that he believed it from the beginning of the discussion. :-) (2) Once the yellowcake (U3O8) has been extracted, the physical mass of the fuel required to meet the nation's energy needs is hundreds of thousands of times less than the mass of coal that would be required, for the U-235 fuel cycle, and millions of times less if the Pu-239 cycle is employed. Result: vastly smaller numbers of workers are required to move it through the preparations sequence and get it burned, than is the case for coal. That's hundreds of thousands fewer trucks on the road, for example, and hundreds of thousands fewer accidents caused by those trucks. And so on. (3) Since a nuclear explosion is a physical impossibility, where reactor grade U-235 or Pu-239 are concerned, such concerns are irrelevant to the issue. All that matters are conventional accidents of the same sorts which occur in the fossil fuel sequence. Thus the total number of injuries and deaths, if the nation's energy needs are met by nuclear, is necessarily vastly less than if they are met by coal. (4) Coal fired plants, as noted, release far greater quantities of radionuclides into the environment than nuclear fired plants. Bottom line: nuclear power is vastly safer than coal, per megawatt of energy produced, and there aren't any ifs, ands, or buts about it. Then why isn't that state of affairs generally acknowledged? Because democratic fascism does not work. Power corrupts, and when a government has the power to violate property rights "in the public interest," that power is going to be abused. The result is a defective political system which places control of government in the hands of an elite of parasites, who then manipulate public opinion by means of "spin doctoring," the funding of mindless "environmentalist" crusades, and various other activities with which we are all familiar. That is why the received wisdom about nuclear power and many other things is simply propaganda--carefully crafted and self-serving lies--rather than fact. What can be done about it? Why nothing, of course. The system will increasingly groan under the burden of the accumulating parasites until, one fine day, it collapses. At that point the mindless multitudes will clamor for one last dose of the poison that is killing them, in the form of a brutal dictator of the Hitlerian stripe who, they hope, will restore the nation to prosperity. It is at that point that they will get, not what they hoped for, but what they so richly deserve. --Mitchell Jones}*** >Content-Type: application/octet-stream; > name="Oak Ridge MAP - Table 2-1-1 History of operations.url" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: attachment; > filename="Oak Ridge MAP - Table 2-1-1 History of operations.url" > >Attachment converted: HD4000:Oak Ridge MAP - Table 2-1-1 His (????/----) >(000889C0) ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 12:40:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00909; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:38:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:38:03 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Old SF chestnut Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:41:18 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010514160753.023b5320@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010515133332.02926ad8@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01051615411800.01482@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA00880 Resent-Message-ID: <"AExCf2.0.6E.RSj0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42619 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 15 May 2001 19:55, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 15 May 2001 14:41:18 -0400: > > >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > >>Because it isn't just the replacement of the fossil fuel industry that > >>is considered a "problem". It's the fact(?) that ZPE based devices > >>relate to anti-gravity, and the peaceful races in the galaxy don't want > >>belligerent xenophobic warmongering Earthlings bothering them. > > > >Ah, that story line that must have appeared in hundreds of old SF stories, > >novels, and that dumb movie "Independence Day." It is sort of fun, but > >ridiculous and utterly unrealistic in my view. Intelligent creatures > >capable of navigating interstellar space would be thousands of years ahead > >of human beings. If there was ever a war between us, it would be over in > >five minutes. They would murmur a single command to a computer and we would > >dissapear. It would be like the recent war between me and a colony of > >hornets in my kitchen wall. > > Hornets yes, but how about a colony of ants somewhere under the house, > that have discovered your food storage? :) > IOW while they may be technically far beyond us, that doesn't > necessarily mean that we won't represent nuisance value. > And besides, they may not wish to eliminate an intelligent species. > There is also the possibility that they are protecting us from > ourselves. > > > > >Also, there is not the slightest chance we could "reverse engineer" their > >technology, any more than Benjamin Franklin could reverse engineer a > >Pentium computer. His instruments could not even see the components, much > >less reproduce them. (The best 18th century microscopes had 2 micron > >resolution, compared to the 0.18 micron scale Pentium components.) Consider > >how far he would get trying to understand a uranium oxide thermoelectric > >generator, a large fission power reactor, or a television, and what would > >happen to him if he monkeyed with these things. See Clarke's third law: > >"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." We > >would have no idea how how to operate alien equipment. It would probably > >not respond to our language or brainwaves, and it is hardly likely to be > >controlled by any other means. > > This I agree with. > > >If we tried to cut it apart, it would > >probably object and force us to stop. > > That I doubt. There is no need to imbue an inanimate object with > defensive capability, if it's not likely to be attacked during normal > use. > > > >Does anyone doubt that future > >machines will all be imbued with at least as much intelligence as small > >animals? > > Probably, but self defence would probably only be limited to a warning. > Would you want your toaster to jab you while you are trying to repair > it? > [snip] > >as your hand calculator comes up with an arithmatic error. Also, their > >computers would not be running Windows 95, and they would not be > >susceptible to our computer viruses, contrary to the movie "Independence Day." > [snip] > I agree, I had to laugh when I saw that too. > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html The operating term may be called "enabling technologies" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 12:41:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32626; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:35:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:35:11 -0700 Message-ID: <01C0DE04.C5835D50.dequickert@ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Yucca Mountain Project statement seems reasonable Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:35:58 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Oa2y43.0.Uz7.kPj0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42618 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday, May 16, 2001 10:19 AM, Matthew Rogers wrote: [snip] > The Native Americans in the mid west would start huge forest fires at their > campsites, just for fun, ( where do you think all the trees of the Midwest > plains went to ?) This is absolute nonsense. >Matthew Rogers >Prove it.. good idea. suggest you practice it prior to posting this kind of misinformation. Jed's response was right on -- although I think it applies far more to the western forests than the eastern deciduous. He certainly can come up with the literature in a hurry! The recent wave of scientific illiteracy that freenrg-l has succumbed to appears to be spilling over into vortex-l. I don't think you Matthew are the prime example of that, but this last post of yours was a good example of the trend. I note that recently you've had disputes here with representatives from the shallow end of the think tank - maybe in the splashing around you ingested a bit too much of their water :-) -Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 13:25:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA15985; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:19:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:19:49 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010516155424.028c2ce0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 16:18:50 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC Eastern deciduous forests, bird, bees, etc. In-Reply-To: <01C0DE04.C5835D50.dequickert@ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"lQiv3.0.dv3.a3k0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42620 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: >good idea. suggest you practice it prior to posting this kind of >misinformation. >Jed's response was right on -- although I think it applies far more to the >western forests than the eastern deciduous. Quite right. Although some people say the eastern forests have been cultivated and cut for so long by the European population that the effects of the American Indian methods may be lost, or overlooked. The early European settlers described a very different landscape from what you find today in old-growth eastern forests, but the details are lost to history. We don't know much about the role deliberate fire-setting played. There is a debate about this among biologists and forestry people. This raises a fascinating set of issues. Can we -- should we -- "restore" land to its "original" appearance, or "preserve" it? What exactly do those terms mean? Homo sapiens has been affecting the appearance of the North American landscape for hundreds of thousands of years, just as the buffalo changed the appearance of the Great Plains. You can never stop change in a forest. I am trying to grapple with these questions while deciding how to reforest 30 acres in Pennsylvania. As things are now, it is impossible to grow saplings without unnatural plastic shielding around the base, because the deer population has shot up to unprecedented levels, and the deer eat every sapling in sight, because predators have been wiped out and people no longer hunt much. So what's natural? Plastic sapling guards? Two or three deer per acre population density? Like it or not, we humans have to play God to a certain extent. The "natural order" is gone. North American bee species have been decimated out by Asian mites, brought over by some idiot on a boat or airplane. If the wildflowers and fruit are going to bloom in Maryland and Pennsylvania, it will up to us human beings to supply domesticated bees treated for mites. We are literally in charge of the birds and the bees. Our track record does not inspire confidence. > He certainly can come up with >the literature in a hurry! I have it at my fingertips. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 13:44:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA22571; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:35:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:35:58 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lightspeed & The Universe Expansion Rate Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 16:39:13 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" References: <006201c0ca76$820cc300$c9b4bfa8@computer> <3AFEB4A0.13C3B1A@austininstruments.com> <003401c0dbdb$30bbaae0$a7b4bfa8@computer> In-Reply-To: <003401c0dbdb$30bbaae0$a7b4bfa8@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01051616391301.01482@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA22544 Resent-Message-ID: <"Yq-Gc1.0.bW5.kIk0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42621 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 13 May 2001 11:32, Frederick Sparber wrote: > John Fields wrote: > > > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > > Recently, astronomers have discovered that expansion of the Universe is > increasing. > > > > > > The speed of light is given as c = 1/(uo*eo)^1/2 where uo is 4(pi)x10^-7 henry/ > meter > > > and eo = 8.85x10^-12 farad/meter. > > > > > > Since expansion of the Universe makes Space more tenuous, permeability uo and > > > permittivity eo decrease and c becomes greater. > > > > > > Thus, since E = mc^2 , m = E/c^2 so an increase in c dictates that mass m Must > > > Decrease, thus conserving > > > Energy and Momentum. > > > > > > You can quote me on this. :-) > > > > > > Regards, Frederick > > --- > > Sounds good to me! > > > > Since Cerenkov radiation is a result of FTL travel, it seems that > > superluminal velocities of propagation are not ruled out, but depend on > > the electrical properties of the material through which the radiation > > propagates. > > Yes, but, if you consider that the gravitational field surrounding matter creates the > "aether" ie., sets up uo and eo as borne out by the Gravitational Red Shift where > light > travels at a lower velocity: > > c' = c initial[1+ (phi/c^2)] where phi = -GM/R > > Where G is the gravitaional constant of "our world" > 6.67x10^-11 M is the mass and R is the separation radius. > > phi/c^2 is 3000 times greater on our Sun than on the Earth. > > The Mossbauer Effect was used to measure the change in lightspeed over a vertical path > of 20 meters at the Earth's surface and detected a change in lightspeed of 2 parts in > 10^15. > > IOW gravitational fields create an "Aether Gradient" or > a uo and eo gadient that determines lightspeed. > > If one could model that gradient between stars or galaxys > you might find a significant "anistropicity" of the EM gravity field and thus highly > variable lighspeed and possibly a few "Wormholes" ie., gravity field vortices. :-) > > If you mean Superluminal wrt to "our World" lightspeed, > that is acceptable but you Cannot Exceed the local > lightspeed, because mass experinces a Drag that approaches Infinity as you approach > "Local c". > Kind of like a submarine trying to approch the speed of sound in seawater. Tends to > flatten it out in the direction > of motion too. :-) > > Thus, if we were to completely remove all mass from some > > volume of local space, c would be limited to 3.0*10E9m/s because space > > itself isn't empty and presents an impedance which will limit c. > > I disaggree with the 3.0*10E9m/s value, John. If there is > a supermass at the center of our Universe "bubble" it's > Gravity Field Gradient extends out to some point occupied by mass, and beyond. > > For all we know the lightspeed at a halfway point between our Galaxy and Andromeda is > 100x local c. > > > > If space itself becomes more tenuous as we approach the horizon of our > > universe, the velocity of mass will increase, as will c, because of the > > attraction caused by the (infinite?) void on the other side of the > > horizon. If this is true, then it's like we're surrounded by an > > inverted black hole into which mass and radiation from our universe is > > being drawn. The horizon of the universe, then, would be that point > > beyond which we could not detect mass or energy because they were being > > "swallowed up" by the void. > > We don't need an "inverted black hole" , out there, > just a lower gravity field/Aether Value. > > However, when uo and eo drop to zero light will > no longer have an Aether to travel in and it will > be reflected back into our Universe according to Snell's Law of total internal > reflection. > > > > This would certainly explain where the missing mass is, as well as why > > the universe is expanding at an increasing rate the farther out we go. > > Okay by me. > > Regards, Frederick > > > > --- > > John Fields > > Sounds a little like Ptolemy's universe where he tried to justifty the earth as the center of the universe in order to please the Catholic Church and keep his job and his health. I really liked the one about the submarine in water traveling at the speeds approaching that of sound. Ever hear of the 'sonic boom'?. By the way, the Russians have had this torpedo, the 'Schklar" or something, that travels at these speeds and could go higher. They use an interesting principle of super cavitation. Basically the whole assembly travels in this 'bubble' under rocket power. Write-up about it in the latest 'Scientific American". Just suppose that space could be 'cavitated' too? Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 14:18:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02736; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:12:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:12:06 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:15:11 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" References: <000f01c0dda6$cac52040$1f962640@bear> In-Reply-To: <000f01c0dda6$cac52040$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01051617151102.01482@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA02674 Resent-Message-ID: <"bmRQ31.0.Xg.Zqk0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42622 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 15 May 2001 18:23, Matthew Rogers wrote: > You cannot use the Hiroshima calculations to accurately talk about power > generation or radio nuclide generation. > > You can talk about one or the other. A nuclear bomb is not a reactor > generation electricity. > > Bombs don't have control rods and containment vessels, They go Boom. They > make use of Fast Neutrons > > Power plants don't go boom, they make power. They make use of Slow Neutrons. > > Bombs consume less than one percent of their fuel into making energy, so the > rest of the material is scattered over a vast area, and the fast neutrons > cause other unrelated neutrons to contaminate non radioactive matter into > radioactive. > > Bombs Cannot be contained, only dispersed and diluted till the most harmful > short term radionucleides deterioriate. > > Nuclear fuel when used contains also radioactive -non- fuel components, like > Cadmium fuel cladding and other things. So, PWR have to store the used fuel > rods on site, until the most short term radioactive by products no longer > exist. > Which is Why Nuclear power is safe. > 1. All long term radionuclieds can be recycled and reused or stored safely. > Only your politicians and Press make it seem dangerous. > 2. All Short term radionucleides that are highly radioactive, Only exist for > a short time. They decay .. Name one ounce of CO2 emissions or Sulfur > Dioxide emissions that go away by them selves. > > > > Matthew Rogers > Prove it.. > Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell@infinite-energy.com] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 7:38 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >It would appear, therefore, that my original number was too high by a > >factor of roughly 15x10^6/102000 = 147, not due to a miscalculation, but > >due to faded numbers in a table. > > Good. Glad you got that straightened out. > > > >The question, therefore, is this: does the new number still support the > >conclusion that nuclear power is vastly safer than any of the alternatives, > >or not? In other words, is the likelihood that roughly 102,000 times as > >many workers are exposed to accidents . . . > > Nope. The number of workers per MW is roughly the same, as I pointed out in > an earlier message. A coal miner extracts 50,000 tons per year, a uranium > miner extracts a few thousand pounds, and it takes many more people to > prepare the uranium fuel. > > In the short term, the coal kills many more customers (citizens, ordinary > folks) than the uranium, but in the long term we don't know yet. A single > serious melt down accident in a populated area might even up the score, by > releasing about as much radioactive material as 1000 Hiroshima bombs. See: > > http://www.ratical.org/radiation/CNR/fission.txt > > > >And, of course, since a breeder program would use the U-238 to produce > >Pu-239, thereby turning *all* of the uranium into nuclear fuel, and since > >the percentage abundance of U-238 in uranite is 139 times as great as that > >of U-235, the multiple for a breeder program the goes back up to about 15 > >million to 1 again--i.e., when Pu-239 fired nuclear furnaces are used. > > Yes, and this would be a fine idea if you don't mind paying 10 to 40 times > more for electricity. If cost and liability are no issue, and you favor of > a "vitually socialist" approach (Heritage Foundation), then nuclear power > is for you. I myself am a capitalist. I do not think the government should > exempt one industry from legal responsibilities that all other industries > must bear. Nuclear power would not survive in a free market, so I think it > is best to let it die, gradually. It is dying, despite huge subsidies and > 60 years of government pampering. > > - Jed Ah, the 'liability canard'. I some fulness of time, when the public has finally had enough of blackouts and high gas prices and specious bourgeous propaganda about protecting the 'rights' and scandalous profits of people and organizations who care nothing about us; And when the words of danger to future generations 10000 years from now from a femto-microgram of plutonium ring hollow to a family freezing right now in a blacked out house whose members, unemployed and starving, face yet another barren day; And when the users that need power are driven to other places, maybe not in this country in order to get reliable power delivery, taking the jobs with them; And when some politician amongst this needless suffering begins to find a following from people who have been lied to about the alleged dangers of nuclear power, and starts to preach things like: "to the lamposts with the economic saboteurs of the American Dream........" and " to the lamposts and the guillotine with all their supporters!"...................... I believe that nuclear power will be the wave of the future. All fossil fuels will run out some day. At present, they are all owned by someone. Some of those someones are hostile to all that we represent. This scene above is also quite alien to who we are..................now. But wait. Just maybe someone is around that remembers that Germany was a really nice place to live in 1905, compared to other places. A German then could sue the Kaiser in court and win, and the Kaiser would have to pay!. Try that on your local HMO next time they commit out-patient triple bypass surgury on your grandmother. And we had the nerve to sell the American people at that time that WWI was to save democracy. Really saved hypocracy. They spelled it wrong and so did I in order to get the meaning accross. Anti nuclear demonstrators had their day in the 1970's and 1980's when they were well financed by the USSR and Communist China in order to de-stabilize us. That movement just may be starting to play with fire now. As for 'waste'. I asked a professor of physics what it was once. I naively had the idea that energy could be gotten from this in a secondary recovery facility. Not to be! Turns out that the half life of over 99 percent of it is less than a few seconds or even shorter. You could literally sleep on most of it and dream of eternal life. Sensible designs, small, and a breeder cycle will get us through the short run until fusion can come on line. This is if the ITR lives up to its promise and does'nt create a big bang right here on earth. They should show us the way to clean fusion and safe fusion. They might be a demonstration for intranuclear power...........power geometrically stronger than the relationship of nuclear to chemical power. Unimaginably strong forces unleashed from forces associated with exceedingly small radii. Then again we might verify extra dimensionality and other exact solutions of cosmological multivariable partial differential equations. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 15:20:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26404; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:16:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:16:43 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 08:16:13 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6vu5gtc8r7725kcjmm7r35p1uk7d5avbub@4ax.com> References: <002201c0de2b$5791b220$e5181ad8@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <002201c0de2b$5791b220$e5181ad8@oemcomputer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA26301 Resent-Message-ID: <"V3Cbe1.0.RS6.Bnl0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42623 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Wed, 16 May 2001 10:12:07 -0700: >Ask one of the Swat Teams; They took one on one of their later raids. Who did they take it from? (Secrecy at this point is obviously pointless). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 15:49:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA03617; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:44:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:44:41 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010516182055.029413e8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 18:44:42 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper In-Reply-To: <01051617151102.01482@linux> References: <000f01c0dda6$cac52040$1f962640@bear> <000f01c0dda6$cac52040$1f962640@bear> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"oid0T1.0.Nu.PBm0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42624 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Note to Mr. S. Bear: Please refrain from quote entire messages, per the rules of this forum. You wrote: >Ah, the 'liability canard'. I some fulness of time, when the public has >finally had enough of blackouts and high gas prices and specious >bourgeous propaganda about protecting the 'rights' and scandalous >profits of people and organizations who care nothing about us. . . > And when the words of danger to future generations 10000 >years from now from a femto-microgram of plutonium ring hollow to >a family freezing right now in a blacked out house whose members, >unemployed . . . You are confused. The liability exemption granted by Congress covers present day accidents, not damage to future generations 10,000 years from now. The DoE describes it: A Federal regulation that continues to have a cost-reducing effect on the nuclear power industry is the Price-Anderson Act of 1959, which placed a limit of $560 million on the liability of individual nuclear power plants for damage resulting from any one accident. In 1988, amendments to the Act increased the potential liability to $7 billion per accident. This limit provides a subsidy to the nuclear industry to the extent that insurance premiums paid by the operators of individual plants are reduced. http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/subsidy/excise.html Without this artificial limitation the nuclear plant operators say they would close up shop. Obviously this means they believe another serious accident is possible. If they thought a second TMI meltdown cannot happen, they would not care about liability. They are the experts; if they think another meltdown may occur, I do too. Bear in mind that the TMI meltdown destroyed one-third of the core, and that according to the official federal investigation the core was 30 minutes to 1 hour away from complete, catastrophic meltdown. A meltdown is not a distant theoretical possibility; it is a genuine trillion-dollar industrial accident waiting to happen. It may be more likely to happen than you realize. There have been at least three other close calls with out-of-control reactors after TMI, and one set of rods were damaged. They leaked large amounts of material into the cooling water, which then leaked out of the reactor, and into the surrounding areas. "Unmonitored floor and roof drains in radioactive areas of the plant deposited contaminated liquids directly into the soil and the discharge canal . . . Management was aware of these problems but did not take effective steps to resolve them." Management was aware of the problem and did nothing for 461 days, to be exact. The utility tried to cover up, naturally. when news of the fiasco finally broke, estate of Connecticut promptly shut the reactor down permanently, which was the only sensible thing to do in my opinion. The state Attorney General declared, "What we have is a nuclear management nightmare of Northeast Utilities' own making. The goal is no longer to decommission a nuclear power plant, but rather to decontaminate a nuclear waste dump." That's a $450 million woops! accident, 1/12 the way the liability limit that you say makes no difference. Do you want Uncle Sam to pick up the tab next time? You don't mind paying for other people's idiotic mistakes and criminal incompetence? I do. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 16 21:16:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA24386; Wed, 16 May 2001 21:13:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 21:13:05 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B0299F5.9517B5D2@ix.netcom.com> References: <3B0299F5.9517B5D2@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:12:32 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"AeJHW2.0.ty5.F_q0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42625 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There are some things that I want to add to this discussion. One thing that just infuriates me about the modern geneticists is listening to them refer to the DNA whose actions they don't understand as Junk DNA. I wonder if they have ever reflected on the difference between say a beaver and a bear, why does one dig dens and the other build dams? Another example is a similar animal, the pig which has a genetically encoded language. I can do the bark for danger pretty well and enjoy doing it loudly in a crowded hog house to see how many of them I can get to go from napping to jumping up and looking around. There is a type of pig, desginated Specific Pathogen Free SPF. in which the piglets are removed from their mother by cerian section, and never know her. Since these pigs use the same bark for danger, It's obvious to me that it is genetically encoded. The living body is surrounded, permiated and controlled by an energy field. There are a number of healing regimens, accupuncture, homeopathay, and reike among them which produce their healing effects by making changes to this energy field. As far as I know, scientists do not understand the nature of this field. Beverly Ruick, PhD Physics is interested in thing like body mind interrelationships doesn't understand the nature of this field. If any of you understand it's nature, Beverly and I would like to discuss it with you. Then there are disincarnate entities. If you take a tape recorder with a new tape to a grave yard, or a house were people have died violently and suddenly, battle fields are good for this, and record you will hear voices. Some people see shadow beings out of the corner of their eyes. The drawings they make of what they see look remarkably similar. All of the above can be seen and listened to on Art Bell's website. When these entities move into a person they are called demons. We ( Christians ) believe that these entities are fallen angels. Last night's guest was the exorcist Bob Larson. There are various reasons why people get infected by these entities. Bob's job is to throw them out. I listen to his radio show on a regular basis, so I was not surprised by the voices of the demons, but I'm sure that the uninitiated might find them shocking. The reason I'm mentioning this is because there are people who have knowledge of another person's life, which ended before their birth. People who tell these sort of stories are regular guests on Art's show. Bob made the point that demons have this sort of information. Convincing humans that the reality of life is other than it is, tops their agenda. IMHO, the reality of life is that the biosphere is a divinely ordered system, that life is an energetic rather than merely a biological phenomena, when you die you will sleep until the resurrection that you will be a part of From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 00:51:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA20136; Thu, 17 May 2001 00:50:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 00:50:30 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3B0299F5.9517B5D2@ix.netcom.com> <3B0299F5.9517B5D2@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 02:23:42 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind Resent-Message-ID: <"AUkJ22.0.Ww4.6Bu0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42626 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >There are some things that I want to add to this discussion. > >One thing that just infuriates me about the modern geneticists is >listening to them refer to the DNA whose actions they don't >understand as Junk DNA. ***{Agreed . I react the same way. --MJ}*** I wonder if they have ever reflected on the >difference between say a beaver and a bear, why does one dig dens and >the other build dams? Another example is a similar animal, the pig >which has a genetically encoded language. I can do the bark for >danger pretty well and enjoy doing it loudly in a crowded hog house >to see how many of them I can get to go from napping to jumping up >and looking around. There is a type of pig, desginated Specific >Pathogen Free SPF. in which the piglets are removed from their mother >by cerian section, and never know her. Since these pigs use the same >bark for danger, It's obvious to me that it is genetically encoded. ***{Yes. The information for what some have termed "behavior genetics" is massive and overwhelming. This what I have referred to, in my discussion with Ed, as genetically encoded core understandings. Each species has to have them, because its physiology is adapted to fill a specific niche in the scheme of things, and it would be absurd to suppose that a pig, with proper incentives, would try to live like a bear, or vice versa: a pig doesn't have the equipment that a bear requires; and a bear doesn't have the equipment that a pig requires. Despite being similar, however, the core understandings of the various specific individuals in a species are *not* identical: they never arise out of the same genetic material, except in the case of genetic twins; and even in that case, there are processes at work--e.g., mitotic crossing over--which guarantee divergence. --MJ}*** [snip] ***{Thomas, I do not agree with the portion of your message that I snipped, but I don't have time right now to get into those issues. Ed is giving me all of the religious stuff I can handle without overloading my circuits! :-) --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 06:09:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA16519; Thu, 17 May 2001 06:08:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 06:08:00 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [64.19.14.115] From: "Adam Cox" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Lightspeed (photonic boom?) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 08:07:06 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 May 2001 13:07:06.0421 (UTC) FILETIME=[45EFB650:01C0DED2] Resent-Message-ID: <"us71Y.0.124.mqy0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42627 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Consider the following Every object continually gives off energy in the form of photons, heat light reflections, etc. As a craft approaches lightspeed (in this universe- I am not precluding extra-dimensional travel) the wavelength of light emitted from the front of the craft decreases as a result of doppler. A similar situation occurs with sound waves coming from airplanes. This forms a shockwave of pressure known as a sonic boom. If... travel at lightspeed in this universe were possible, what would the photonic shockwave look like? Rabdom Musings Merlyn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 07:41:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA09859; Thu, 17 May 2001 07:40:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 07:40:36 -0700 Message-ID: <006001c0def8$a876fd80$945bccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3B0299F5.9517B5D2@ix.netcom.com> <3B0299F5.9517B5D2@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:41:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"tObSm3.0.vP2.ZB-0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42628 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: First, I am pleased with civility of this thread, which has linked strongly opposed views in a temperate and informed discussion. The topic is difficult, for there are many 'mental' or 'spiritual' phenomena wanting to be 'heard' in the discussion. I add some thoughts, not conclusive one way or another. Forensic DNA tests use the "junk" DNA for matching, not the "good" DNA. Reason? If you use DNA coding for, say, hair then this is conserved and is apt to be very similar between many members of the same race. The "junk" DNA, having no (apparent) survival value, is not conserved, and is so much more likely to vary significantly from person to person. It is claimed that there is a 95% match between the DNA of humans and chimps. I wonder if this applies to the total genome or to the 'active' parts, and if so, how are the 'active' parts identified for chimps? A close match doesn't bother me at all, for chimps and other high primates obviously have cognitive capabilities similar in kind, if not degree, to humans. Comparisons have been made in the personal habits of identical twins who were separated at birth and reared apart without contact. What is astonishing is similarity in details of personal habits having no particular survival value. Items: 1) habit of wearing seven rubber bands on left arm, 2) common choice of profession, 3) wives of same first name, etc. and etc. One is forced to consideration of common prenatal imprinting or to genetic 'instinctual' neural wiring. Brains run on neural networks of fantastic interconnectivity in which there are highly nonlinear and recursive, analog and binary, globally hormonally mediated, effects. Claims for similarity to programmed, algorithmic computers rate only giggles. Neural networks can be taught but not 'programmed' in the algorithmic sense. We are so far from understanding the properties of the brain entity that it is presumptuous to state what it can or cannot do. The Mandelbrot Set, deterministic chaos, and similar studies show clearly that fantastically complex behavior can originate from simple, rigorously logical operations as soon as recursion (positive feedback) is allowed. And there is plenty of that in neural networks. A byproduct of this is a compulsive capability for pattern recognition, which I suggest is the source of ghostly voices heard from tape recorders in bank vaults or graveyards. Listen intently to noise, and voices will seem to nearly emerge, as faces in clouds, constellations in stars, etc. All that said, there are anecdotal reports of what has the scientific-sounding name of 'anomalous cognition' whereby people gain strong subjective impressions, sometimes objectively verifiable, by means external to accepted physics. Some are reliable enough to be the basis of decades-long remote viewing projects supported by government agencies and supervised for a while by Hal Puthoff, CEO of Earth Tech. Hal's office features a large painting by Ingo Swann, one of the most able 'psychics' on the scene, who 'mentally' interfered with the operation of a instrument buried under the floor of a lab at SRI, and who was active in the remote viewing programs. As for 'past lives', the phenomenon is common enough that any powerful memory stimulation technique such as hypnotic regression is apt to surface them. Such studies are widely discounted, but there is some residue of verifiable details and therapeutic value which is harder to discount. We are in a real gray area, the interface between physics and metaphysics, where the real tough job is to ask the right questions. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 09:00:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA03474; Thu, 17 May 2001 08:56:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 08:56:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3B03F4D4.6B908491@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:57:08 -0400 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [OT]Nuclear Proliferation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DuO6T.0.7s.MI_0x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42629 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking-8.html Report: 100 plus terrorist groups have 'bomb'; 550 nuclear trafficking deals since '93 SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM Thursday, May 17, 2001 WASHINGTON - More than 100 terrorist organizations around the world have succeeded in obtaining elements for the construction of a nuclear bomb. A United Nations report said the organizations have obtained the material from nuclear reactors in the former Soviet Union. The report said the terrorist groups have been leading clients of traffickers in smuggled nuclear goods. The report recorded 550 incidents of nuclear trafficking since 1993. As a result, the UN said, more than 100 terrorist groups are now capable of developing an atomic bomb. The report, first disclosed by the London-based Guardian daily, said worldwide smuggling of radioactive materials has doubled since 1996, Middle East Newsline reported. The nuclear trafficking increased dramatically since the collapse of the former Soviet Union. Many of these incidents were not confirmed. Western intelligence sources said the terrorist groups are led by the Al Qaeda group of Saudi billionaire fugitive Osama Bin Laden. The sources said Bin Laden is believed to have at least two nuclear bombs. Last week, the UN held a conference in Stockholm on nuclear trafficking. The International Atomic Energy Agency urged the international community to strengthen regulations to prevent nuclear smuggling and trafficking. The IAEA has recorded more than 370 confirmed incidents of nuclear trafficking since 1993. The agency said most of the incidents do not involve material that can be used for the assembly of nuclear weapons. "Looking toward the future, it is clear that broad international cooperation will be needed to upgrade security measures, to improve capabilities for intercepting and responding to illicit trafficking, and to enhance the protection of facilities against terrorism and sabotage." IAEA director-general Mohamed El Baradei said. "The most difficult challenge will be the effective consolidation of all these measures into integrated, efficient national systems, ensuring that the security of nuclear and other radioactive material is woven into the infrastructure of nuclear safety and security." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 10:37:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA05074; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:34:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:34:20 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010517120137.00967990@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:34:18 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Lightspeed (photonic boom?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_aGi_3.0.CF1.Sk01x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42631 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At one point I had offered a scenario that could be used approaching and in excess of light speed. You might remember the fly in a screen box. If one could separate a hunk of space (similar to the air inside the cockpit of a supersonic jet) and propel that isolated hunk of space to and beyond the speed of light then the occupants should be safe inside and experiencing none of the sidekicks of there rate of travel. When a jet exceeds the sonic barrier an interesting thing happens. The air pushed out of the way by the craft passing through it along with every sound that craft makes all condenses into a cone shaped wave front that we call "Sonic Boom" It does not take a genius to surmise that the same would likely happen with the media of space as that which happened with air. A problem is that the very structure that holds our atoms together is the media which this boom would travel through. Call it a photonic boom but I think it is an extraordinarily dangerous thing. At 08:07 AM 5/17/01 -0500, you wrote: >Consider the following > >Every object continually gives off energy in the form of photons, heat >light reflections, etc. > >As a craft approaches lightspeed (in this universe- I am not precluding >extra-dimensional travel) the wavelength of light emitted from the front >of the craft decreases as a result of doppler. > >A similar situation occurs with sound waves coming from airplanes. >This forms a shockwave of pressure known as a sonic boom. > >If... travel at lightspeed in this universe were possible, what would the >photonic shockwave look like? > >Rabdom Musings >Merlyn >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1@yahoo.com cjford1@swbell.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 10:37:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03612; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:29:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:29:24 -0700 Message-ID: <006d01c0deec$62a67c60$94181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:13:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"PZMwd3.0.Mu.qf01x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42630 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hard to communicate with inventor as they are not allowing any regular mail through, he is not even getting his bills, have to send Fed Ex. I know this sounds too far out but it is actually happening. Maybe I should write a book about the life and trials of a free energy inventor.. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Wed, 16 May 2001 10:12:07 -0700: > >>Ask one of the Swat Teams; They took one on one of their later raids. > >Who did they take it from? (Secrecy at this point is obviously >pointless). >[snip] > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 11:26:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20904; Thu, 17 May 2001 11:18:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:18:00 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:24:44 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing In-reply-to: <006d01c0deec$62a67c60$94181ad8@oemcomputer> To: Bruce Meland Reply-to: Lynn Kurtz Message-id: <96680666.20010517112444@imap2.asu.edu> Organization: ASU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.44) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <006d01c0deec$62a67c60$94181ad8@oemcomputer> Resent-Message-ID: <"PjGRs.0.N65.NN11x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42632 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, I'll be blunt. I don't believe you or this cock & bull story of yours. Why don't you give Robin a straight answer? --Lynn On Thursday, May 17, 2001 you wrote BM> Hard to communicate with inventor as they are not allowing any regular mail BM> through, he is not even getting his bills, have to send Fed Ex. I know this BM> sounds too far out but it is actually happening. Maybe I should write a book BM> about the life and trials of a free energy inventor.. BM> -----Original Message----- BM> From: Robin van Spaandonk BM> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com BM> Date: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 3:22 PM BM> Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >>In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Wed, 16 May 2001 10:12:07 -0700: >> >>>Ask one of the Swat Teams; They took one on one of their later raids. >> >>Who did they take it from? (Secrecy at this point is obviously >>pointless). >>[snip] >> >>Regards, >> >>Robin van Spaandonk >> From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 12:37:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13856; Thu, 17 May 2001 12:34:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:34:17 -0700 Message-ID: <01c501c0defd$d28fb760$62181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: "Lynn Kurtz" Cc: Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:18:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"2PE2O3.0.FO3.tU21x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42633 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lynn; I have been following this free energy supression operation by our govt for years. Believe it or not It is a reality. Read some books to get you up to speed on coverups, like UFO's and the National Security State by Richard Dolan keyholepublishing.com or in case of the Drug Coverup by CIA go to www.barryandtheboys.com I have not time to go into details as will write as much as I am allowed about the subjet and the inventors that have allowed me to write about them in our next edition of Electrifying Times. Some inventors have asked not to publish any more about them until a later date. Again some info will be about the free energy coverup and supression. It will be published in about a month. We are trying to make arrangements with this Eric guy to have one of these motors or space energy coherrers tested and hopefully win the first ever $5,000 prize. Stay tuned. Lynn you sound like your are one of these linnear educated University types. Is that right? I was one at one time too, so don't feel bad . Bruce editor www.electrifyingtimes.com -----Original Message----- From: Lynn Kurtz To: Bruce Meland Date: Thursday, May 17, 2001 11:29 AM Subject: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >OK, I'll be blunt. I don't believe you or this cock & bull story of >yours. Why don't you give Robin a straight answer? > >--Lynn > > >On Thursday, May 17, 2001 you wrote > >BM> Hard to communicate with inventor as they are not allowing any regular mail >BM> through, he is not even getting his bills, have to send Fed Ex. I know this >BM> sounds too far out but it is actually happening. Maybe I should write a book >BM> about the life and trials of a free energy inventor.. >BM> -----Original Message----- >BM> From: Robin van Spaandonk >BM> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >BM> Date: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 3:22 PM >BM> Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing > > >>>In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Wed, 16 May 2001 10:12:07 -0700: >>> >>>>Ask one of the Swat Teams; They took one on one of their later raids. >>> >>>Who did they take it from? (Secrecy at this point is obviously >>>pointless). >>>[snip] >>> >>>Regards, >>> >>>Robin van Spaandonk >>> > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 13:37:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA00466; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:29:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:29:32 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B0299F5.9517B5D2@ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:27:01 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind Resent-Message-ID: <"Uf64U2.0.77.hI31x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42634 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> ***{Hi Ed. Sorry for the delay. The barbarians are at my gates, and I'm >> being overwhelmed by sheer numbers! :-) >> >> Incidentally, my response ballooned to enormous size again, but this time >> I'm sending it all, so this message is in two parts. >> >> --Mitchell Jones}*** >> >> >Mitchell Jones wrote: >> > >> >> Ed Storms wrote: >> >> >> >> >After you were "born again" into this new, identical being >> >> >> >> ***{You keep using the word "identical." However, I am explicitly saying >> >> that the new being is *not* identical. While he possesses the >> >> understandings you possessed at the time of your death, he does not >>possess >> >> your memories, and his body may be radically different--he may not >>even be >> >> a member of the human species, in fact. --MJ}*** > >> > >> >Sorry, I was referring to your idea that the new person needs to be like >> >you to become you. >> >> ***{This is an extraordinarily difficult subject to penetrate, and, >> realizing that, I am trying very hard to make myself clear. Part of the >> problem, I think, is the very wide philosophical gulf between us: you are >> coming at this problem from the perspective of a person who has been >> somewhat influenced by Eastern mysticism, and I am coming at it from the >> perspective of Western Rationalism. Philosophically, these are antipodes, >> and the result is a struggle to communicate. --MJ}*** > >All so true. However, I initially came from Western Rationalism, so your >arguments in this context are not unfamiliar. Instead, I suggest you are a >theoretician and I am an experimentalist. You imagine a model that >becomes real >in you own mind based on logic, and I demand to see some behavior in nature to >support a model. ***{When logic is based on facts rather than wishful thinking, the two approaches become indistinguishable. (By the process of reason, one culls out the answers which contradict "facts" until only one answer remains, and one then treats that answer as the truth.) --MJ}*** I'm looking for such behavior in Eastern mysticism to see if it >supports the belief system they have created. > >> >> >> , how would you know >> >> >that this process had occurred? >> >> >> >> ***{The only way to know that the process occurred is by means of the >> >> reasoning we have been discussing--to wit: (a) the fact that you are >>alive >> >> now proves that conditions exist which are capable of bringing you from a >> >> state of nonexistence into a state of existence; (b) the vastness, >> >> complexity, and ever changing nature of the universe suggests that, after >> >> you die, those conditions will eventually occur again; and (c) logic >> >> requires that, if they do, you will live again. --MJ}*** >> > >> >This logic evades the possibility that each of us is entirely "new" and >> >that we >> >live now only because an egg and sperm got together. >> >> ***{It doesn't matter whether it is the first time, and it doesn't matter >> whether consciousness is merely a property of a material entity. Even if >> both of these statements are true, the fact that we live and are conscious >> is proof that the world is capable of bringing us into existence, thereby >> satisfying condition (a), above. Therefore if you do not deny (b), then (c) >> inexorably follows. Simply put: the fact that the world has brought you >> into existence once is proof that, if those conditions are replicated after >> your death, you will live again. This conclusion is no less certain than >> saying that, if CF has occurred once, then if the conditions which existed >> at that time are replicated, it will occur again. --MJ}*** > >OK, I understand. I agree we are here and I agree a small possibility >exists that >the DNA and other conditions might repeat and produce another me. ***{It's not a "small" possibility, due to the vastness of the time available, and to the vastness of the universe. Perhaps an analogy will make the point. I read somewhere recently that the probability of an object a kilometer in diameter striking Earth in an average person's lifetime (75 years) is .000125. Now that's very low. However, in a million years the same probability becomes 1 - (1 - .000125)^(10^6/75) = 1 - .999875^13333 = 1 - .189 = .81 And, please note, this vast change in likelihood occurs due *solely* to the increase in the time available. Now imagine what would be the effect if we relaxed the requirement that the impact occur on Earth, and allowed the impact to occur on any Earth-like planet in the universe. The result, obviously, would be to shift the probability to 1.0--or, for quibblers, to .99999999999..., where you have to keep hitting the "9" key until you wear it out. Note that, when you talk about the probability that DNA, some time after your death, somewhere in the universe, will produce a child whose *core understandings* match those you had at the time of your death, you have relaxed the requirements both with respect to time and with respect to location. Result: the probability jumps to .99999... until the "9" key wears out, for a finite-but-huge conventional universe, and to 1.0 in the infinite universe that I believe actually exists. Bottom line: practically speaking, the probability is 1.0 that, after your death, a child will be born somewhere whose core understandings match the understandings you had at the time of your death. And, of course, if the understandings that a person possesses at a given moment define the essence of what he is, then that child will be you--which means: you will live again. --Mitchell Jones}*** >I am what I have experienced, I would not be completely me unless these >experiences also occurred. ***{I do not agree. Experience provides us with data, but what we do with the data--i.e., the understandings that we extract from it--is what counts. Thus we are not our experiences. Each person is a mind--a unique consciousness--with a set of response tendencies (understandings) and it is those response tendencies which make each of us unique, and which must be replicated in another mind after our deaths, if we are to live again. --MJ}*** Since I do not remember any previous life experience, >I would never know whether I was the first of my kind or the 1000th. ***{If you were the first, that would violate the principle of continuity of mind. Higher species evolve from lower species. Thus the existence of a sentient species as advanced as humans can only occur at the end of a lengthy evolutionary sequence that must, somewhere in space and time, have put forth a creature who, at his death, possessed the understandings you possessed when you came into the world. Result: he became you. The implication: we all began as a lower form, perhaps a worm or a slug--perhaps even an amoeba--and we have each struggled through a vast progression of lives, stretching all the way from the beginning of the phylogenetic scale, to become what we are now. --MJ}*** As far as >I'm concerned, I'm the first and have no way to know when I might come >again, if >ever. So the model becomes pointless to me. ***{Reason provides you with a way to know, so the model is not pointless. --MJ}*** On the other hand "conventional" >reincarnation, if real, has other important implications beyond my being >reborn. >These implications are missing in your model. ***{Do you discount the possibility of witches riding brooms? If so, then you have even stronger grounds for discounting the miracle of memory transferrence. --MJ}*** >> We appear unique to >> >ourselves only because that is the way we were designed to feel. Your >> >logic is >> >much like my saying that because I can imagine cold fusion, therefore it >> >must be >> >real. >> >> ***{I'm not saying that our ability to imagine living again makes it real. >> In terms of the CF metaphor, the reasoning would proceed as follows: (a) >> the fact (let's assume) that cold fusion is taking place in Sam's lab now >> proves that conditions exist which are capable of bringing cold fusion from >> a state of nonexistence to a state of existence; (b) the vastness, >> complexity, and ever changing nature of the universe suggests that, after >> Sam's experiment is over, those conditions will eventually occur again; and >> (c) logic requires that, if they do, cold fusion will occur again. > >And if CF does happen again, Sam would be able to detect its presence. >How would >you detect the presence of another "you"? ***{By means of the reasoning we are discussing--to wit: each phenomenon has a set of characteristics that define the essence of what it is, and those characteristics do not place limitations on its location in space and time. Result: a phenomenon will recur whenever its defining characteristics recur. In the case of an individual consciousness, a physical body and sensory and motor nerves are required, plus a brain to which those nerves are connected, and a collection of understandings that can be modified on the basis of thought and/or experience. These are the physical requirements of consciousness, and involve material entities--objects. Consciousness, however, is a phenomenon, not an object. By its nature, an individual consciousness can exist only once in the universe at a given time, but, once it has passed into nonexistence (death), it can arise again, if the necessary conditions are satisfied. --MJ}*** >> To put the matter a bit differently, I am saying that any X which has been >> defined solely in terms of a specific set of physical characteristics will >> occur again, if those characteristics occur again. It is only if you insert >> a requirement of spatio-temporal continuity into the definition of X, that >> it can only occur once. For example, if you crack open an egg (X), fry it, >> and eat it, there is one thing and one thing only which prevents someone in >> the future from having "that egg" for breakfast again: the fact that no >> future egg will connect back, by a continuous spatio-temporal pathway, to >> the egg which you ate today. On the other hand, if you relax the >> requirement of spatio-temporal connectedness, and define X solely by means >> of a list of physical characteristics not involving position in space and >> time, then, irregardless of the degree of detail in your list of >> characteristics, X will eventually occur again. >> >> Granted, our habit of requiring spatio-temporal connectedness in our >> definitions of specific objects--"that egg," "that car," "that woman," >> etc.--is highly useful both in our thought processes and in our attempts to >> keep track of items of property. However, if out of habit we thoughtlessly >> impose that requirement on our definitions of *self*--of who we are--then >> we force, by an act of stipulation, the conclusion that we can never live >> again. >> >> In my view, this is not a matter that can be decided by stipulation. The >> fact is that phenomena--complex processes which arise out of the >> interactions of parts--are just as real as objects, and the definitions of >> phenomena do *not* involve the requirement of spatio-temporal >> connectedness. The phenomenon of nuclear fission, for example, is not >> something that can occur only once. It is, instead, something which is >> defined in terms of properties that are independent of spatio-temporal >> connectedness, and, as such, can occur again and again, whenever and >> wherever those properties are present. >> >> The question you have to ask yourself, therefore, is this: is your mind an >> object, or a phenomenon? If the former, then the requirement of >> spatio-temporal connectedness strictly applies, and this is the only life >> you can ever have. On the other hand, if your mind is a phenomenon, then >> whenever the conditions which give rise to it are satisfied after your >> death, you will perforce live again. >> >> In my view, the answer is obvious: each mind is a phenomenon, not an >> object--so much so that the very idea of pointing at an object and saying: >> "That is my mind," is ludicrous. >> >> --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Unfortunately, the mind is based on the brain and the brain is an object. ***{All phenomena arise out of the interaction of entities--i.e., physical objects. However, a physical object, once dissipated, cannot recur, whereas a phenomenon can arise again. Since a mind--a specific, individual consciousness--is a phenomenon, not an object, it follows that when its defining characteristics find expression again, in another set of objects, after the destruction of the prior objects which expressed those characteristics, that mind will exist again. --MJ}*** This >object contains too many different features to be reproduced by chance >alone. On >the other hand, I have to admit a very, very small probability exists in >principle >that a brain could be completely duplicated, for what that is worth. ***{You keep saying "completely duplicated," "identical," etc., whereas I have said from the beginning that it is only the defining characteristics of an individual mind which need to be duplicated. Yes, a brain is required. Yes, sensory and motor nerves are required. Yes, a body is required. Yes, for advanced beings, the capability to lay down memories is required. And so on. However, the physical structures that are involved--the brain, the nerves, the body, etc.--do not have to be identical in *all* respects. They only need to be identical in those limited respects that capture the essense of the person--which means: the brain-body system must possess the same response tendencies that characterized the former person, at the time of his or her death. That means the brain-body system must come into the world with the core understandings the former person possessed at the time of his death, and with the physical capability to act and think in accordance with those understandings. Beyond that, nothing further is required. The brain can be larger or smaller, the physiology can be different, the color of the skin can be different, the distribution of body hair can be different, the body hair can be replaced by feathers or scales, and so on. There need be no connectedness in space or time or memory or physique or physiology or species, to the former person. All that is needed is that the new being possess the characteristics that defined the essence of what the former being was. If it does, then, by the law of identity, the new being will be him. --MJ}*** >> >> Would you remember your previous existence? If >> >> >not, what is the point? >> >> >> >> ***{When I came into this world, I did not remember any previous lives, >> >> despite the likelihood that I had existed in this universe before. >> >> Therefore, by your premise, there could have been no point to my >>life. Yet, >> >> in fact, there obviously was a point: my life was an opportunity to >>enjoy, >> >> to learn, to grow, and to advance my understandings relative to those >>I had >> >> when I came into the world. What more justification does life require? >> > >> >The "point" had nothing to do with your enjoying your present life. The >> >"point" >> >has to do with believing that you lived before and this previous life >>had some >> >meaning to you. >> >> ***{Your question was subject to two interpretations: >> >> (1) You could have been saying that if I did not have memories of my >> previous existence, then my present life would have no meaning. I addressed >> that interpretation in the paragraph above. > >I believe your life now has meaning. I am saying that unless you remember >your >past existence, this past life has no meaning to you now. ***{See my next comment, below. --MJ}*** >> (2) You could have been saying that if I did not have memories of my >> previous life, then that previous life had no meaning. I addressed that >> interpretation in the paragraph immediately below. > >The past life had meaning at the time. It has no meaning to you now >because you >have no way to know whether that life actually existed. ***{To paraphrase our former president: "it depends on what the definition of "meaning" is." :-) If you require conscious memories of events in the previous life in order to meet your definition of "meaning," then, obviously, by my model you will not have them. If you require conscious knowledge that you must have lived before in order to satisfy your definition of "meaning," then by my model, you will have it: *reason* supports the conclusion that we lived before and will live again, despite the absence of conscious memories of prior lives. If you require that the benefits of what you learned in your prior lives be available to you in this life, then by my model you will have it: the understandings you extracted from the experiences you had in your prior lives defined the essence of what you were at the end of your previous life, and, thus, had to be present in the new child, in order for him to be you. Anyway, that's enough for now. More later. --Mitchell Jones}*** [To be continued.] ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 13:58:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08707; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:52:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:52:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3B043936.DAAFF698@austininstruments.com> Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:48:54 -0500 From: John Fields Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lightspeed (photonic boom?) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aVhce.0.v72.1e31x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42635 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Adam Cox wrote: > > Consider the following > > Every object continually gives off energy in the form of photons, heat light > reflections, etc. > > As a craft approaches lightspeed (in this universe- I am not precluding > extra-dimensional travel) the wavelength of light emitted from the front of > the craft decreases as a result of doppler. > > A similar situation occurs with sound waves coming from airplanes. > This forms a shockwave of pressure known as a sonic boom. > > If... travel at lightspeed in this universe were possible, what would the > photonic shockwave look like? --- Travel at _faster_ than light speed is possible in this universe and it happens all the time. What the shock wave looks like is a cone of blue light called Cerenkov radiation. --- To email, please add "nospam" to the end of the subject text. John Fields, Austin Instruments, Inc. El Presidente Austin, Republic of Texas "I speak for my company" http://www.austininstruments.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 15:15:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA02436; Thu, 17 May 2001 15:06:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:06:40 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: <10d.2e31d.2835a548@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 18:06:00 EDT Subject: Fwd: IMPORTANT: X-PPAC Update/Fm: Ed Fouche To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_10d.2e31d.2835a548_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Resent-Message-ID: <"CJykf2.0.-b.mj41x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42636 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_10d.2e31d.2835a548_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_10d.2e31d.2835a548_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xd02.mx.aol.com (rly-xd02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.167]) by air-xd02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Thu, 17 May 2001 15:59:51 -0400 Received: from sm10.texas.rr.com (sm10.texas.rr.com [24.93.35.222]) by rly-xd02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Thu, 17 May 2001 15:59:30 -0400 Received: from ed (cs28144-15.satx.rr.com [24.28.144.15]) by sm10.texas.rr.com (8.12.0.Beta5/8.12.0.Beta5) with SMTP id f4HJwiu3000484; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:58:45 -0500 From: "E. F." To: Subject: IMPORTANT: X-PPAC Update/Fm: Ed Fouche Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 14:59:00 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0DEE1.E7BE7340" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0DEE1.E7BE7340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey: This Press Release SHOULD have been on the front page of EVERY newspaper. It is the most INCREDIBLE thing I have ever watched. It is on Real Audio/Video at this link: http://www.connectlive.com/events/disclosureproject More and more of what I wrote about in "ALien Rapture" and in my presentation at: http://www.fouchemedia.com/arap/ is coming out. Please Pass On to as many people as possible. Also ABC News link below (Search UFO) has a peace. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/dailynews/ufo010509.html Thanks Ed Fouche From: ExPPAC@aol.com [mailto:ExPPAC@aol.com] Subject: X-PPAC Update - May 10, 2001 X-PPAC Update - May 10, 2001 Disclosure Project Press Conference By any reasonable criteria, the press conference held at the National Press Club on the morning of May 9 by the Disclosure Project, which is headed by Dr. Steven Greer, was a solid success. For information on the testimony and other events to follow, go to: www.disclosureproject.org For links to the media coverage, go to: www.x-ppac.org/DP_Media_Links.htm Webcast Jamming According to management of ConnectLive.com, which was airing the webcast of the Disclosure Project press conference, they were hit with sophisticated jamming. They had never experience anything like it in the hundreds of webcast the had conducted. It was not hacking and it was not the result bandwidth. As a result the webcast was down for about 10 to 15% of the time. They received hundreds of queries as to what the problem was. However, the press conference will be archived in its entirety for the next six months at; www.connectlive.com/events/disclosureproject and a link to this will be up at: www.disclosureproject.org www.paradigmclock.com www.x-ppac.org X-PPAC Media Schedule (Stephen Bassett) Saturday, May 12 KTSA AM 550 San Antonio CyberCity with Jack Landman 9:10 pm EDT Webcast: http://www.ktsa.com/ Stange Days.............Indeed with Errol Bruce Knapp CFRB AM 1010 Toronto 10:30 pm EDT Webcast: http://www.cfrb.com/ ___________________________________________________ Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee URL: www.x-ppac.org E-mail: exppac@aol.com Phone: 301-990-4290 Fax: 301-990-0199 4938 Hampden Lane, #161 Bethesda, Maryland 20814 ___________________________________________________ Spread the word about X-PPAC & the politics of disclosure. Contribute online at: www.x-ppac.org/Contribute.html or mail to: 4938 Hampden Lane,161 Bethesda, MD 20814 ___________________________________________________ "There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish, if you are willing to give away the credit." ___________________________________________________ "The truth costs money, lies on the other hand, will be provided to you for free." ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0DEE1.E7BE7340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey:
This Press Release SHOULD have been on the=20 front page
of=20 EVERY newspaper.  It is the most INCREDIBLE thing I=20 have
ever=20 watched.  It is on Real Audio/Video at this link: 
 
More=20 and more of what I wrote about in "ALien Rapture" and in
my=20 presentation at: http://www.f= ouchemedia.com/arap/  =20 is coming
out.
 
Please=20 Pass On to as many people as possible.  Also ABC News
link=20 below (Search UFO) has a peace.
 
Thanks
Ed Fouche
 
 
From: ExPPAC@aol.com [mailto:ExPPAC@aol.com]
Subjec= t:=20 X-PPAC Update - May 10, 2001

         &= nbsp;            = ;          X-PPAC=20

           &n= bsp;       Update=20 - May 10, 2001

Disclosure Project Press Conference

By= any=20 reasonable criteria, the press conference held
at the National Press Clu= b on=20 the morning of May 9 by
the Disclosure Project, which is headed by Dr.=20 Steven
Greer, was a solid success.

For information on the testim= ony=20 and other events to
follow, go to:=20    www.disclosureproject.org

For links to the media=20 coverage, go to:=20
            =          www.x-ppac.org/DP_Medi= a_Links.htm=20


Webcast Jamming

According to management of=20 ConnectLive.com, which
was airing the webcast of the Disclosure Project=20 press
conference, they were hit with sophisticated jamming.
They had= =20 never experience anything like it in the
hundreds of webcast the had=20 conducted.  It was not
hacking and it was not the result bandwidth.= =20

As a result the webcast was down for about 10 to 15%
of the time= .=20  They received hundreds of queries as to
what the problem was.=20

However, the press conference will be archived in its
entirety f= or=20 the next six months at;=20
   www.connectlive.com/events/disclosureproject
and a= =20 link to this will be up at:
   www.disclosureproject.org=20
   www.paradigmclock.com
   www.x-ppac= .org=20


X-PPAC Media Schedule (Stephen Bassett)

Saturday,= May=20 12
 KTSA AM 550 San Antonio
 CyberCity with Jack Landman=20
 9:10 pm EDT
 Webcast:  http://www.ktsa.com/=20

  Stange Days.............Indeed
  with Erro= l=20 Bruce Knapp
  CFRB AM 1010  Toronto
  10:30= pm=20 EDT
  Webcast:  http://www.cfrb.com/
 =20
 ___________________________________________________=20

        Extraterrestrial=20 Phenomena Political Action Committee=20
            =             &nbs= p;  URL:=20 www.x-ppac.org=20             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;    =20
            =             &nbs= p;E-mail:=20 exppac@aol.com=20
            =             &nbs= p;  Phone:=20 301-990-4290=20
            =             &nbs= p;    Fax:=20 301-990-0199=20
            =             &nbs= p;4938=20 Hampden Lane, #161=20
            =             &nbs= p;Bethesda,=20 Maryland 20814=20
  ___________________________________________________=20

     Spread the word about X-PPAC & the= =20 politics of disclosure.=20
        Contribute online at:=20  www.x-ppac.org/Contribute.html
      = ;or=20 mail to: 4938 Hampden Lane,161 Bethesda, MD 20814=20
  ___________________________________________________=20
     =20
            = "There=20 is almost no limit to what you can accomplish,=20
            =      if=20 you are willing to give away the credit."=20
  ___________________________________________________=20

           &n= bsp; "The=20 truth costs money, lies on the other hand,=20
            =             &nbs= p;will=20 be provided to you for free."
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0DEE1.E7BE7340-- --part1_10d.2e31d.2835a548_boundary-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 18:24:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA32589; Thu, 17 May 2001 18:23:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 18:23:12 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:28:44 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <01c501c0defd$d28fb760$62181ad8@oemcomputer> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"XyZTc1.0.7z7.0c71x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42637 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bruce Meland writes: Lynn you sound like your are one of these linnear educated University types. Is that right? I was one at one time too, so don't feel bad . Bruce editor Ahyup, I hear tell he's a one a those "nucular fiscicists". Ain't that right Lynn? Or was it Math-Q-Matics... (grin) K. www.electrifyingtimes.com -----Original Message----- From: Lynn Kurtz To: Bruce Meland Date: Thursday, May 17, 2001 11:29 AM Subject: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >OK, I'll be blunt. I don't believe you or this cock & bull story of >yours. Why don't you give Robin a straight answer? > >--Lynn > > >On Thursday, May 17, 2001 you wrote > >BM> Hard to communicate with inventor as they are not allowing any regular mail >BM> through, he is not even getting his bills, have to send Fed Ex. I know this >BM> sounds too far out but it is actually happening. Maybe I should write a book >BM> about the life and trials of a free energy inventor.. >BM> -----Original Message----- >BM> From: Robin van Spaandonk >BM> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >BM> Date: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 3:22 PM >BM> Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing > > >>>In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Wed, 16 May 2001 10:12:07 -0700: >>> >>>>Ask one of the Swat Teams; They took one on one of their later raids. >>> >>>Who did they take it from? (Secrecy at this point is obviously >>>pointless). >>>[snip] >>> >>>Regards, >>> >>>Robin van Spaandonk >>> > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 19:19:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA18330; Thu, 17 May 2001 19:19:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 19:19:25 -0700 Message-ID: <002001c0df40$08f74e20$a23dee3f@default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: References: <10d.2e31d.2835a548@aol.com> Subject: Techie needed in Mass. / New Hampshire area Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 22:12:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"Dodvu1.0.EU4.iQ81x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42638 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If there are any vortex types out there, who are good circuit jocks and prototype builders in the Massachussetts or New Hampshire areas, here is a solicitation- A friend of mine, Paul Lander, who now resides in Wellfleet on the Cape, is in need of some technical help on his anti-gravity project. Paul is experimenting with sequencing magnetic fields in a set of toroids He needs someone who can assemble some MOSFET coil drivers from schematics that I drew up for him. He has prototype units for both basic drivers, but needs two more of each built. Paul is willing to pay for parts and labor. If anyone is up for such a project, please contact Paul at LLightron1@cs.com Thanks; NR From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 19:49:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA27011; Thu, 17 May 2001 19:47:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 19:47:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3B048007.F2BC8BAC@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 19:51:12 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bO_s41.0.wb6.8r81x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42639 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >All so true. However, I initially came from Western Rationalism, so your > >arguments in this context are not unfamiliar. Instead, I suggest you are a > >theoretician and I am an experimentalist. You imagine a model that > >becomes real > >in you own mind based on logic, and I demand to see some behavior in nature to > >support a model. > > ***{When logic is based on facts rather than wishful thinking, the two > approaches become indistinguishable. (By the process of reason, one culls > out the answers which contradict "facts" until only one answer remains, and > one then treats that answer as the truth.) --MJ}*** I know about this approach and apply it myself on many occasions. However, conditions exist to which this approach can not be applied. For example, if an event is seen that makes no sense in terms of what we know. My wife and her mother both saw a ghost one evening in their home. The vision was the top part of an Indian and it was visible for several minutes. Naturally, a person might suggest a reflection or just misinterpreting a shadow. Both women tested each of these possibilities, yet the vision remained. How would you arrive at the truth and provide an explanation using your method? Would the first process be rejection of the event in favor of hallucination because reason says that ghosts are impossible? > > > >OK, I understand. I agree we are here and I agree a small possibility > >exists that > >the DNA and other conditions might repeat and produce another me. > > ***{It's not a "small" possibility, due to the vastness of the time > available, and to the vastness of the universe. > > Perhaps an analogy will make the point. I read somewhere recently that the > probability of an object a kilometer in diameter striking Earth in an > average person's lifetime (75 years) is .000125. Now that's very low. > However, in a million years the same probability becomes 1 - (1 - > .000125)^(10^6/75) = 1 - .999875^13333 = 1 - .189 = .81 And, please note, > this vast change in likelihood occurs due *solely* to the increase in the > time available. Now imagine what would be the effect if we relaxed the > requirement that the impact occur on Earth, and allowed the impact to occur > on any Earth-like planet in the universe. The result, obviously, would be > to shift the probability to 1.0--or, for quibblers, to .99999999999..., > where you have to keep hitting the "9" key until you wear it out. > > Note that, when you talk about the probability that DNA, some time after > your death, somewhere in the universe, will produce a child whose *core > understandings* match those you had at the time of your death, you have > relaxed the requirements both with respect to time and with respect to > location. Result: the probability jumps to .99999... until the "9" key > wears out, for a finite-but-huge conventional universe, and to 1.0 in the > infinite universe that I believe actually exists. > > Bottom line: practically speaking, the probability is 1.0 that, after your > death, a child will be born somewhere whose core understandings match the > understandings you had at the time of your death. > > And, of course, if the understandings that a person possesses at a given > moment define the essence of what he is, then that child will be you--which > means: you will live again. First of all, probability theory assumes random events based on a continuing process. If a process is discontinuous, probability can not be applied. For example, you assume that the DNA used for life on this world at this time would be the same DNA operating on another planet at another time. The DNA on this planet evolved from a common source and effectively removed competing forms. The result of this competition might well be different on another planet. I suggest it would be hard to imagine how a being could be born based on different DNA with sufficient similarity to you to contain your essence. On the other hand, if you require only that the being, at its birth, have the understanding you had at your death, then you might be condemning this being to a retarded existence should he be born 1000 years from now. > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >I am what I have experienced, I would not be completely me unless these > >experiences also occurred. > > ***{I do not agree. Experience provides us with data, but what we do with > the data--i.e., the understandings that we extract from it--is what counts. > Thus we are not our experiences. Each person is a mind--a unique > consciousness--with a set of response tendencies (understandings) and it is > those response tendencies which make each of us unique, and which must be > replicated in another mind after our deaths, if we are to live again. > --MJ}*** People have been trying to separate nurture from nature forever. While you have made up your mind about this issue, I'm still learning. I know that my response tendencies have changed over time, based on experience. After all, this is the only way personal growth takes place. I shudder at the thought of dying when I was 20 and coming back 1000 years later. I would be in deep trouble. > > > Since I do not remember any previous life experience, > >I would never know whether I was the first of my kind or the 1000th. > > ***{If you were the first, that would violate the principle of continuity > of mind. Higher species evolve from lower species. Thus the existence of a > sentient species as advanced as humans can only occur at the end of a > lengthy evolutionary sequence that must, somewhere in space and time, have > put forth a creature who, at his death, possessed the understandings you > possessed when you came into the world. Result: he became you. The > implication: we all began as a lower form, perhaps a worm or a > slug--perhaps even an amoeba--and we have each struggled through a vast > progression of lives, stretching all the way from the beginning of the > phylogenetic scale, to become what we are now. --MJ}*** How do you know that we humans are the highest form? Perhaps races of beings exist who are to us like we are to the monkeys. Would you next come back as one of them? If so, what good would your understanding of this lifeform be? > > > As far as > >I'm concerned, I'm the first and have no way to know when I might come > >again, if > >ever. So the model becomes pointless to me. > > ***{Reason provides you with a way to know, so the model is not pointless. > --MJ}*** Reason provides the answer only if you respect reason, as you do. If you believe, as I do, that reason is only a tool and it can provide any answer you want on such a subject, then I'm still at a loss. I'm suggesting that reason can only apply within a known framework. It can not help you extrapolate outside of that framework, which is what you are doing. > > > On the other hand "conventional" > >reincarnation, if real, has other important implications beyond my being > >reborn. > >These implications are missing in your model. > > ***{Do you discount the possibility of witches riding brooms? If so, then > you have even stronger grounds for discounting the miracle of memory > transferrence. --MJ}*** Mitchell, I assume the image of witches riding brooms is an allegory you are using and not meant to be literal. Events occur in this world that simply can not be explained or understood using our models. It is not rational to reject them all just because they do not fit your expectations. When this approach is taken in science, no progress is made. The same can be said with respect to a spiritual understanding. Like all subjects, a student must engage in study, research and debate before the truth can be understood. Simply using logic or "rational" deduction is not enough simply because the "facts" are not in evidence. I suggest I have gathered more "facts" about the subject than you have, hence I will naturally arrive at different conclusions using the same method of logic. > > > >> We appear unique to > >> >ourselves only because that is the way we were designed to feel. Your > >> >logic is > >> >much like my saying that because I can imagine cold fusion, therefore it > >> >must be > >> >real. > >> > >> ***{I'm not saying that our ability to imagine living again makes it real. > >> In terms of the CF metaphor, the reasoning would proceed as follows: (a) > >> the fact (let's assume) that cold fusion is taking place in Sam's lab now > >> proves that conditions exist which are capable of bringing cold fusion from > >> a state of nonexistence to a state of existence; (b) the vastness, > >> complexity, and ever changing nature of the universe suggests that, after > >> Sam's experiment is over, those conditions will eventually occur again; and > >> (c) logic requires that, if they do, cold fusion will occur again. > > > >And if CF does happen again, Sam would be able to detect its presence. > >How would > >you detect the presence of another "you"? > > ***{By means of the reasoning we are discussing--to wit: each phenomenon > has a set of characteristics that define the essence of what it is, and > those characteristics do not place limitations on its location in space and > time. Result: a phenomenon will recur whenever its defining characteristics > recur. In the case of an individual consciousness, a physical body and > sensory and motor nerves are required, plus a brain to which those nerves > are connected, and a collection of understandings that can be modified on > the basis of thought and/or experience. These are the physical requirements > of consciousness, and involve material entities--objects. Consciousness, > however, is a phenomenon, not an object. By its nature, an individual > consciousness can exist only once in the universe at a given time, but, > once it has passed into nonexistence (death), it can arise again, if the > necessary conditions are satisfied. --MJ}*** I think we have arrived at the same end point, but by a different route. I assume the consciousness of an individual is transferred to another body after death, but only after it is stored in the unseen world. On the other hand, you assume consciousness is transferred once the correct receptacle has been made by chance. In either case, we are "born again" so to speak. I like my mechanism better because I can look for evidence, while you have to rely on probability theory. > >> > >> In my view, the answer is obvious: each mind is a phenomenon, not an > >> object--so much so that the very idea of pointing at an object and saying: > >> "That is my mind," is ludicrous. > >> > >> --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > >Unfortunately, the mind is based on the brain and the brain is an object. > > ***{All phenomena arise out of the interaction of entities--i.e., physical > objects. However, a physical object, once dissipated, cannot recur, whereas > a phenomenon can arise again. Since a mind--a specific, individual > consciousness--is a phenomenon, not an object, it follows that when its > defining characteristics find expression again, in another set of objects, > after the destruction of the prior objects which expressed those > characteristics, that mind will exist again. --MJ}*** This is like saying that if carbon, sulfur and potassium nitrate should all come together by chance in once spot, then be mixed together and subjected to a flame, an explosion (phenomenon) would result. I have to agree, but I'm not going to hold my breath. > > > This > >object contains too many different features to be reproduced by chance > >alone. On > >the other hand, I have to admit a very, very small probability exists in > >principle > >that a brain could be completely duplicated, for what that is worth. > > ***{You keep saying "completely duplicated," "identical," etc., whereas I > have said from the beginning that it is only the defining characteristics > of an individual mind which need to be duplicated. Yes, a brain is > required. Yes, sensory and motor nerves are required. Yes, a body is > required. Yes, for advanced beings, the capability to lay down memories is > required. And so on. However, the physical structures that are > involved--the brain, the nerves, the body, etc.--do not have to be > identical in *all* respects. They only need to be identical in those > limited respects that capture the essense of the person--which means: the > brain-body system must possess the same response tendencies that > characterized the former person, at the time of his or her death. I suggest this is splitting hairs. Just how much needs to be identical for the essence to be captured? I was assuming the total package would be needed. After all, if you were born blind, for example, would not you reaction to the world be different from your present reaction? Would not your essence show itself in a different way? > That > means the brain-body system must come into the world with the core > understandings the former person possessed at the time of his death, and > with the physical capability to act and think in accordance with those > understandings. Beyond that, nothing further is required. The brain can be > larger or smaller, the physiology can be different, the color of the skin > can be different, the distribution of body hair can be different, the body > hair can be replaced by feathers or scales, and so on. There need be no > connectedness in space or time or memory or physique or physiology or > species, to the former person. All that is needed is that the new being > possess the characteristics that defined the essence of what the former > being was. If it does, then, by the law of identity, the new being will be > him. --MJ}*** You need to be clearer about what you mean by "essence". I suggest a lot of people would not want to be handicapped by their present essence. Why would you think your essence is worth repeating? Personally, I would hope for a better essence. > > > > > >The past life had meaning at the time. It has no meaning to you now > >because you > >have no way to know whether that life actually existed. > > ***{To paraphrase our former president: "it depends on what the definition > of "meaning" is." :-) > > If you require conscious memories of events in the previous life in order > to meet your definition of "meaning," then, obviously, by my model you will > not have them. > > If you require conscious knowledge that you must have lived before in order > to satisfy your definition of "meaning," then by my model, you will have > it: *reason* supports the conclusion that we lived before and will live > again, despite the absence of conscious memories of prior lives. > > If you require that the benefits of what you learned in your prior lives be > available to you in this life, then by my model you will have it: the > understandings you extracted from the experiences you had in your prior > lives defined the essence of what you were at the end of your previous > life, and, thus, had to be present in the new child, in order for him to be > you. My model (reincarnation) produces the same result. How will we decide which one is real? Ed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 17 23:36:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA25000; Thu, 17 May 2001 23:34:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 23:34:55 -0700 Message-ID: <01C0DF2A.26ACE760.dequickert@ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 23:36:05 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4Vx1C1.0.Y66.EAC1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42640 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith, my message wasn't directed at you, it was a comment on the recent stuff from Bruce Meland; I was agreeing with what Lynn Kurtz said.. The reply-to field on the messages you're sending to Vortex-l is set to your email address, so by default my message went to you instead of to the list. It's preferable for that field to be left blank, so that the list processor can fill it in, unless you _want_ replies to only go to you. What I said (for those who care) was: > Nuclear physics has nothing to do with the disbelief here > [disbelief in the veracity of Bruce Meland's posts]. From my > perspective, at least, it comes from a total lack of factual data > presented, merely unsubstantiated sensationalist claims. Dan Quickert On Thursday, May 17, 2001 10:09 PM, Keith Nagel wrote: > I was trying to recall what Lynn Kurtz does; > I think he's a mathematics prof. but I forgot > hence the post. Bruce edits a magazine; which > he's trying to promote. > > Am I missing anything? > > K. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 05:19:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA24737; Fri, 18 May 2001 05:18:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 05:18:28 -0700 Message-ID: <041601c0df8c$00e07760$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Fwd: [svpvril] Catalytic Water Separation Splits H2O into Hydrogen and Oxygen Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 06:15:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"XV5hi.0.R26.JCH1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42641 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reference to the work at Tokyo Institute of Technology wrt using visible light and Binary Oxides (Cu(I), NiO,Co3O4, and FeO-Fe2O3) as catalysts to split water into H2 and O2, I did a similar experiment with water and CaCO3 + CO2 as part of a graduate problems course in 1971, to see if this would mimic photosynthesis and produce CH2O2 (formic acid) or (CH2O)n or(aldehyde polymers)or simple sugars. When the water containing CaCO3 is charged with CO2, soluble Ca(HCO3)2 is formed. Exposure to light for a day or so yielded microscopic fibers. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 06:55:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA16062; Fri, 18 May 2001 06:54:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 06:54:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-244-42.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.244.42] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3B052A1E.876CEFE8@ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 01:56:46 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Techie needed in Mass. / New Hampshire area References: <10d.2e31d.2835a548@aol.com> <002001c0df40$08f74e20$a23dee3f@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YoM7o1.0.ow3.GcI1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42642 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick Reiter wrote: > If there are any vortex types out there, who are good circuit jocks and > prototype builders in the Massachussetts or New Hampshire areas, here is a > solicitation- > > A friend of mine, Paul Lander, who now resides in Wellfleet on the Cape, > is in need of some technical help on his anti-gravity project. Paul is > experimenting with sequencing magnetic fields in a set of toroids Sounds like my work? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 09:20:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA29675; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:13:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:13:31 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:19:47 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: John Fields cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Lightspeed correction In-Reply-To: <3B043936.DAAFF698@austininstruments.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"oMKFz2.0.bF7.geK1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42643 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please see note in text: On Thu, 17 May 2001, John Fields wrote: > Adam Cox wrote: > > > > Consider the following > > > > Every object continually gives off energy in the form of photons, heat light > > reflections, etc. > > > > As a craft approaches lightspeed (in this universe- I am not precluding > > extra-dimensional travel) the wavelength of light emitted from the front of > > the craft decreases as a result of doppler. > > > > A similar situation occurs with sound waves coming from airplanes. > > This forms a shockwave of pressure known as a sonic boom. > > > > If... travel at lightspeed in this universe were possible, what would the > > photonic shockwave look like? > > --- > NOTE: The effect cited below is the result of trying to force energy through a materials faster than light will travel ...through the material .. Example: If light travels at 60 percents of C in a variety of glass then you can get his type of radiation if you try to force energy through the glass at 70 percents of C.... But the whole is still below C. > Travel at _faster_ than light speed is possible in this universe and it > happens all the time. What the shock wave looks like is a cone of blue > light called Cerenkov radiation. > > --- > To email, please add "nospam" to the end of the subject text. > > John Fields, Austin Instruments, Inc. > El Presidente Austin, Republic of Texas > "I speak for my company" http://www.austininstruments.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 09:23:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA31841; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:20:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:20:03 -0700 Message-ID: <002c01c0dfab$da448860$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Fw: IMHO: Relativity proved wrong again... Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:04:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ouENy1.0.On7.okK1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42644 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >FWD: > >From: "Ivor Catt" >To: ]snip] >Subject: Re: Re Essen and H & K Test >Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:11:15 +0100 >X-Priority: 3 >X-Rcpt-To: pgb@padrak.com > >James Bogle told me that under the Freedom of Information Act you got hold >of previously suppressed raw data on one or more relativity confirmation >experiments. You studied this raw data and deduced that the raw data on the >experimental results did not after all confirm Relativity. I think this >involved the clock developed by Louis Essen, for which he was made Fellow of >the Royal Society. Presumably this is the subject of the articles you say >you are about to publish. >The important thing about this is that it complements my conversations with >Louis Essen. >I have already said that Essen told me that one group of "relativity >confirming" experimentalists claimed more accuracy for his clocks than was >in fact the case; Nature published their reports "confirming relativity", >but refused to publish the rebuttal by Essen, the man who developed the >closks they used. > >See my website, some wally wrote in Electronics and Wireless World that a >capacitor had series inductance (which is the Establishment, wrong, story.) >Some woman wrote in to say that 20 years before the same journal had >published Catt saying there was no series inductance in a capacitor. The >wally was allowed to publish that both he and Catt were true. Then the >editor Martin Eccles (see my website) refused to publish my rejoinder that >Catt and the wally could not both be true. (Search for Martin Eccles on my >website.) > >I will briefly summarise the important information that Essen told me, after >citing my own experience with the (UK) Institute of Physics (InstPhys). The >Institute of Physics accepted for publication an article "History of >Displacement Current" by Catt et al. (later published in Wireless World >march 1979; possibly also on my website is you use my search engine). The >Inst. Phys. signed a contract with me to prevent me from publishing >elsewhere, and legally committing them to publishing. Shortly afterwards, I >was a visiting guru to RSRE Malvern (Royal (Signals and) Radar Establishment >(RRE). All the technocrats at RRE attended my lecture, when I announced that >I had an article coming out in Inst Phys. > >The InstPhys then broke their contract with me, saying that they had made an >error in committing to publishing. They never published. This made me look >like a con-man at RRE. > >I took the matter to my friend Archie Howie, later Head of the Cavendish. He >told me InstPhys, of which he was a member, were quite wrong, and he would >look into it. For other reasons I am now at odds with Howie, who takes his >place among the rogues cited in my book "The Catt Anomaly" (see my website >www.electromagnetism.demon.co.uk/ ) > >Louis Essen told me that the Inst. Phys. had signed a contract with him to >publish an article, and he was checking the galleys when they broke their >contract with him to publish. Thus, InstPhys have broken publishing >contracts with both me and with Essen FRS. My case, involving RRE, shows >that such misconduct can be professionally very damaging for the victim of >InstPhys. > >Denis Bailey, who flew me and my co-author to Dublin to give a seminar on >e-m recently (Search for "Dublin" on my website), should be linked up with >you. However, when I said "Kelly", he said Ireland was full of Kellys. (This >undermines your self-description "Al Kelly (Ireland)" below. That is unless >nearly all Irish Kellys are low grade C3. > >Ivor Catt 16may01 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Al Kelly >To: [snip] >Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:42 AM >Subject: Re Essen and H & K Test > > >> Hi Ivor, >> It might interest you to know that after all those years Essen's >> objections to the H & K experiment are totally vindicated. I have an >> article coming out in Dec 2000 (late in publication) of Physics Essays. >> It proves from hitherto unpublished data that was suppressed prove that >> Essen was right. >> Irinically, the cesiunm clocks run slow with respect to the geocentre, >> but that is another story. I have also another article showing that this >> has naught to do with the ideas of S.R. in Infinite Energy special >> edition No 39 laterthis year (on Einstein and his theories). >> I know of your anomoly indeed. >> Maybe you would be interested in actual detailed experiments that I did >> on spinning Magnets and Solenoids which whow that Faraday's Law is wrong >> (Physics Essays Vol 12 No 2, 1999 p372-82. F's Law was named after the >> great man but he never said what they named after him (that I could >> locate). >> Regards, >> Al Kelly (Ireland) > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 09:24:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA01110; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:23:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:23:32 -0700 Message-ID: <003901c0dfac$52df2aa0$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Fw: Support the UFO Disclosure Project: Do This and FWD This! Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:07:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"_L0Y33.0.2H.1oK1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42645 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -- >- > >>FWD: Support the UFO Disclosure Project: Do This and FWD This! >> >>Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:04:16 -0700 >>From: drboylan >>X-Accept-Language: en,es-MX >>To: ufotruth , >> drrichboylanreports >>Subject: Snail-Mail Congress now >>X-Rcpt-To: pgb@padrak.com >> >>Friends, >> >>I had a chance to talk with Dr. Steven Greer yesterday as he >>was on the road busily following up on the UFO Public >>Disclosure Press Conference. >> >>Dr. Greer stated that the Press Conference has sparked great >>interest in the UFO/ET subject on Capitol Hill, and he is now >>talking the Senators and Congress people about Public Hearings. >>But they need to know that this is "the people's business". >> >>In other words, you, every one of you, need to write both >>your U.S. Senators and your Congress(wo)man, and ask for a >>Public Hearing on UFO/ET Reality and the End of the Cover-Up. >>E-mail doesn't cut it. Congress only takes paper letters >>seriously. Write it and mail it today. >> >>If your writing muse isn't awake, you can find the language >>for a good sample letter on the CSETI website at: >>http://www.cseti.org >> >>Do it now. Momentum is a terrible thing to waste. >> >>Thank you. >> >>Richard Boylan, Ph.D. >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 09:28:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03004; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:26:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:26:50 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010518121041.0292bbe0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:26:43 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, "Lynn Kurtz" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Cc: In-Reply-To: <01c501c0defd$d28fb760$62181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"O0D713.0.rk.ArK1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42646 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bruce Meland wrote: >Lynn; I have been following this free energy supression operation by our >govt for years. Believe it or not It is a reality. Yes, it is, but it has nothing to do with helicopters or men in black. I have not only been following it, I have observed it first hand. Here are some examples: * A senior scientist reports excess heat CF experiments with 100% reproducibility. He is ordered to stop the research and assigned a menial job in the stockroom. * Yesterday, the president revealed an energy plan which hands over $2 billion in "incentives" to nuclear energy, which it guts research and support for wind and solar energy. * Coal and gas industry lobbyists feed bogus cost estimates to Congressmen, and publish the numbers in the Congressional Record and in the mass media, trying to convince the public that wind power is ten times more expensive than it really is, that it massacres birds, and that it is a major problem on days when the wind does not blow much. This is how real suppression works. The kind you are imagining only happens in forth-rate thriller novels. Real world tactics are quite effective, probably more effective than helicopters would be, since they would only draw attention to the inventor, and a real inventor would never be stopped by a raid. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 09:33:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04160; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:30:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:30:26 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:36:52 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Jed Rothwell cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: 1 st 2 nd 3 rd In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010516101121.02941550@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"d88TD1.0.w01.YuK1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42647 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Jed, et al., Where do the terms "third world" and first world come from? Can you lead us on an etymology [spelling]? Please. John On Wed, 16 May 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >***{They are either waste, or they are useful material. > > It is never an either/or choice. Most materials are considered waste by > some people in one era, and valuable goods later on. When oil was first > refined, the kerosene was sold and the gasoline was thrown away. Until > recently, when trees were cut for lumber, small branches were thrown away. > Now they are often made into paper. In general, materials increase in > utility over time while falling in monetary value. We learn to use > materials more effectively, and recycle better, so the cost of materials as > a fraction of production cost or personal income decreases. > > There is a widespread myth that our ancestors were frugal and made better > use of materials than we do, and that people in less developed nations > today "waste less" than first world people. Consider wooden ships. They > were used for only 10 or 20 long distance voyages -- seldom more than 100. > You often read of a ship "paying off on the first voyage." If it did not > pay off in two or three trips (a year or two), it might never pay at all. > People in China today waste far more energy and materials for every dollar > of productivity than we do in the first world. The reason we pollute more > and use more energy is because we have so many more goods per capita. > > > >If the former, then > > >they have been adequately disposed of; and if the latter, then I suppose > > >they could at some future date be mined. . . . > > The best thing to do is dispose of them in a place our great-grandchildren > will have little difficulty finding or opening up, in case they find a use > for the material. The worst thing would be to hide the rad waste, or forget > where we put it. > > We consider solid waste landfills a blight and a financial drain. They do > threaten the environment, especially the water supply. The only thing they > are good for is producing a little methane. However, with improved robotics > and better recycling technology, I expect that in 100 or 200 years people > will think of our landfills are gold mines -- literally. Landfills will be > considered cheap, concentrated sources of lead, mercury, gold, aluminum and > much else. Archeologists will have a field day with them. Trash and garbage > buried in the early 1950s has recently been recovered and found amazingly > intact. The newspapers are still readable and some corn that was recovered > may even be edible. Essentially, an older landfill is a great way preserve > goods and prevent biodegredation. Some of the more modern ones are better > suited to breaking down organic materials. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 09:50:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA08544; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:45:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:45:37 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010518124444.02928a78@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:45:27 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Bush energy policy on-line Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"9xK2v1.0.Q52.m6L1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42648 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The energy policy book can be found here: http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/transcripts/energyreport051701.pdf - JR From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 10:08:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA17133; Fri, 18 May 2001 10:06:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:06:24 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:12:47 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Dan Quickert cc: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Yucca Mountain Project statement seems reasonable In-Reply-To: <01C0DE04.C5835D50.dequickert@ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA17088 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZS40F1.0.bB4.FQL1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42649 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please see note.... On Wed, 16 May 2001, Dan Quickert wrote: > > On Wednesday, May 16, 2001 10:19 AM, Matthew Rogers wrote: > [snip] > > The Native Americans in the mid west would start huge forest fires at > their > > campsites, just for fun, ( where do you think all the trees of the > Midwest > > plains went to ?) > > This is absolute nonsense. > > >Matthew Rogers > >Prove it.. > > good idea. suggest you practice it prior to posting this kind of > misinformation. > Jed's response was right on -- although I think it applies far more to the > western forests than the eastern deciduous. He certainly can come up with > the literature in a hurry! > > The recent wave of scientific illiteracy that freenrg-l has succumbed to > appears to be spilling over into vortex-l. > I don't think you Matthew are the prime example of that, but this last post > of yours was a good example of the trend. I note that recently you've had > disputes here with representatives from the shallow end of the think tank - > maybe in the splashing around you ingested a bit too much of their water > :-) > > > -Dan Quickert > Q: Can you give us some examples of this illiteracy? Please. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 10:16:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA20199; Fri, 18 May 2001 10:12:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:12:35 -0700 Message-ID: <00a201c0dfb3$2fd4f740$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:56:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"3kaEE.0.Tx4.1WL1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42650 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Dan Quickert To: 'vortex-l@eskimo.com' Date: Thursday, May 17, 2001 11:36 PM Subject: RE: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >Keith, my message wasn't directed at you, it was a comment on the recent >stuff from Bruce Meland; I was agreeing with what Lynn Kurtz said.. > >What I said (for those who care) was: > >> Nuclear physics has nothing to do with the disbelief here >> [disbelief in the veracity of Bruce Meland's posts]. From my >> perspective, at least, it comes from a total lack of factual data >> presented, merely unsubstantiated sensationalist claims. > Comment by Bruce Meland; I agree these are unsubstantiated claims so I am trying to get verifiable measurments made perhaps in concernt with Eric's $5,000 challenge. There are more than one technologies that i have been following, that could qualify. 18 May 2001 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 10:24:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA25400; Fri, 18 May 2001 10:23:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:23:05 -0700 Message-ID: <00b201c0dfb4$a89de000$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: "Remy C." Cc: Subject: Fw: Your Response Needed Re: Bush Energy Policy Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:07:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Bx2X2.0.oC6.ufL1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42651 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Care2 Alerts To: care2-alerts@australia.care2.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2001 12:22 PM Subject: Your Response Needed Re: Bush Energy Policy Care2’s Alerts newsletter features important steps YOU can quickly take to help make the world greener, such as sending letters to political representatives or doing something to green your home. We’re pleased to share with you a special action opportunity from Care2’s nonprofit partner, The Wilderness Society. I. NEW ALERT: Tell President Bush What You Think About His Energy Plan The Bush Administration’s new energy plan is long on drilling and short on conservation. Even the Administration admits it will provide no price breaks at gas stations this summer, nor will it reduce the cost of cooling or heating our homes. But the plan will increase air pollution and despoil pristine wild places like the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska, the Grand Staircase in Utah, and the Lewis and Clark National Forest in Montana. These spectacular places that provide clean air and drinking water for nearby residents and habitat for grizzly bears, wolves, and other wildlife, are at risk. Worst of all, the Bush plan leaves America dependent on oil, a dwindling resource at home and abroad. The Bush Administration can move forward with many of these ideas any time, without an act of Congress. Please go to http://www.care2.com/go/redirect/2/1875 and tell the White House you don't support energy production at the expense of our clean air and pristine lands. Urge the Bush Administration to promote a balanced energy policy that protects our environment and promotes conservation and renewable sources of energy. Opening up our wildest places to drilling won't satisfy our current energy demands. For example, economically recoverable oil in 15 of our newest National Monuments (­some of them targeted for development) ­amounts to just a 15-day supply of oil for the nation. Increasing investments in energy efficiency and renewable energy sources would be the quickest, cleanest, cheapest way to meet our energy needs, but the Bush Administration's energy plan puts corporate interests ahead of sound environmental policy. Urge the White House to reverse its plans to despoil wild places for questionable amounts of energy. When you respond to this appeal about the Bush Administration’s energy plan, Care2’s nonprofit partner, The Wilderness Society, will send you periodic email alerts on this and other conservation issues. Please help by clicking here: http://www.care2.com/go/redirect/2/1875 II. ACTIVIST TIPS ** Make your car more efficient ** Regardless of which size vehicle you need, try to choose the most efficient model. If you’re stuck with a gas guzzler for awhile, then take these steps to reduce your pain at the pump: Give your car a tune-up, and make sure engine filters are clean. Keep tires inflated according to manufacturer’s instructions. III. INSPIRATIONAL QUOTE "The nation behaves well if it treats the natural resources as assets which it must turn over to the next generation increased, and not impaired in value." -Theodore Roosevelt -------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: care2-alerts-unsubscribe@australia.care2.com To subscribe, e-mail: care2-alerts-subscribe@australia.care2.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 13:00:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08531; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:54:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:54:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:01:17 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Bruce Meland cc: "Remy C." , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: NO... Your Response Bush Energy In-Reply-To: <00b201c0dfb4$a89de000$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA08495 Resent-Message-ID: <"ANuDZ.0.952.DuN1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42652 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, Far more effective action is to post clear, accurate information that may allow you and others to replicate or demonstrate method of energy production. Bruce Meland: Earlier posts form you indicated there was some type of "New Energy" which you were going to let us know about. Help us to learn this new methodology. Please. Have you verified the New Energy method? If yes, what method(s) were employed? Please. John On Fri, 18 May 2001, Bruce Meland wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Care2 Alerts > To: care2-alerts@australia.care2.com > Date: Thursday, May 17, 2001 12:22 PM > Subject: Your Response Needed Re: Bush Energy Policy > > > Care2’s Alerts newsletter features important steps YOU can quickly > take to help make the world greener, such as sending letters to > political representatives or doing something to green your home. We’re > pleased to share with you a special action opportunity from Care2’s > nonprofit partner, The Wilderness Society. > > I. NEW ALERT: Tell President Bush What You Think About His > Energy Plan > > The Bush Administration’s new energy plan is long on > drilling and short on conservation. Even the Administration > admits it will provide no price breaks at gas stations this > summer, nor will it reduce the cost of cooling or heating > our homes. But the plan will increase air pollution and > despoil pristine wild places like the Arctic National Wildlife > Refuge in Alaska, the Grand Staircase in Utah, and the Lewis > and Clark National Forest in Montana. > > These spectacular places that provide clean air and drinking > water for nearby residents and habitat for grizzly bears, > wolves, and other wildlife, are at risk. Worst of all, the > Bush plan leaves America dependent on oil, a dwindling resource > at home and abroad. > > The Bush Administration can move forward with many of these > ideas any time, without an act of Congress. Please go to > http://www.care2.com/go/redirect/2/1875 and tell the White House > you don't support energy production at the expense of our clean > air and pristine lands. Urge the Bush Administration to promote > a balanced energy policy that protects our environment and promotes > conservation and renewable sources of energy. > > Opening up our wildest places to drilling won't satisfy our > current energy demands. For example, economically recoverable > oil in 15 of our newest National Monuments (­some of them > targeted for development) ­amounts to just a 15-day supply of > oil for the nation. Increasing investments in energy efficiency > and renewable energy sources would be the quickest, cleanest, > cheapest way to meet our energy needs, but the Bush > Administration's energy plan puts corporate interests ahead of > sound environmental policy. > > Urge the White House to reverse its plans to despoil wild > places for questionable amounts of energy. When you respond > to this appeal about the Bush Administration’s energy plan, > Care2’s nonprofit partner, The Wilderness Society, will send > you periodic email alerts on this and other conservation issues. > Please help by clicking here: > http://www.care2.com/go/redirect/2/1875 > > II. ACTIVIST TIPS > > ** Make your car more efficient ** > Regardless of which size vehicle you need, try to choose the > most efficient model. If you’re stuck with a gas guzzler for awhile, > then take these steps to reduce your pain at the pump: Give your > car a tune-up, and make sure engine filters are clean. Keep tires > inflated according to manufacturer’s instructions. > > III. INSPIRATIONAL QUOTE > > "The nation behaves well if it treats the natural resources as assets > which it must turn over to the next generation increased, and not > impaired in value." > > -Theodore Roosevelt > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: care2-alerts-unsubscribe@australia.care2.com > To subscribe, e-mail: care2-alerts-subscribe@australia.care2.com > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 13:00:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA09336; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:57:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:57:21 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:03:47 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Bruce Meland cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: What is a Wally? Relativity proved wrong again... In-Reply-To: <002c01c0dfab$da448860$a6181ad8@oemcomputer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Dcvfd1.0.oH2.XwN1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42653 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What is a wally...? All passive electronic circuit elements in the real world exhibit some inductance and some capacitance, and unless superconducting, some resistance as well. On Fri, 18 May 2001, Bruce Meland wrote: > > > > >FWD: > > > >From: "Ivor Catt" > >To: ]snip] > >Subject: Re: Re Essen and H & K Test > >Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:11:15 +0100 > >X-Priority: 3 > >X-Rcpt-To: pgb@padrak.com > > > >James Bogle told me that under the Freedom of Information Act you got hold > >of previously suppressed raw data on one or more relativity confirmation > >experiments. You studied this raw data and deduced that the raw data on the > >experimental results did not after all confirm Relativity. I think this > >involved the clock developed by Louis Essen, for which he was made Fellow > of > >the Royal Society. Presumably this is the subject of the articles you say > >you are about to publish. > >The important thing about this is that it complements my conversations with > >Louis Essen. > >I have already said that Essen told me that one group of "relativity > >confirming" experimentalists claimed more accuracy for his clocks than was > >in fact the case; Nature published their reports "confirming relativity", > >but refused to publish the rebuttal by Essen, the man who developed the > >closks they used. > > > >See my website, some wally wrote in Electronics and Wireless World that a > >capacitor had series inductance (which is the Establishment, wrong, story.) > >Some woman wrote in to say that 20 years before the same journal had > >published Catt saying there was no series inductance in a capacitor. The > >wally was allowed to publish that both he and Catt were true. Then the > >editor Martin Eccles (see my website) refused to publish my rejoinder that > >Catt and the wally could not both be true. (Search for Martin Eccles on my > >website.) > > > >I will briefly summarise the important information that Essen told me, > after > >citing my own experience with the (UK) Institute of Physics (InstPhys). The > >Institute of Physics accepted for publication an article "History of > >Displacement Current" by Catt et al. (later published in Wireless World > >march 1979; possibly also on my website is you use my search engine). The > >Inst. Phys. signed a contract with me to prevent me from publishing > >elsewhere, and legally committing them to publishing. Shortly afterwards, I > >was a visiting guru to RSRE Malvern (Royal (Signals and) Radar > Establishment > >(RRE). All the technocrats at RRE attended my lecture, when I announced > that > >I had an article coming out in Inst Phys. > > > >The InstPhys then broke their contract with me, saying that they had made > an > >error in committing to publishing. They never published. This made me look > >like a con-man at RRE. > > > >I took the matter to my friend Archie Howie, later Head of the Cavendish. > He > >told me InstPhys, of which he was a member, were quite wrong, and he would > >look into it. For other reasons I am now at odds with Howie, who takes his > >place among the rogues cited in my book "The Catt Anomaly" (see my website > >www.electromagnetism.demon.co.uk/ ) > > > >Louis Essen told me that the Inst. Phys. had signed a contract with him to > >publish an article, and he was checking the galleys when they broke their > >contract with him to publish. Thus, InstPhys have broken publishing > >contracts with both me and with Essen FRS. My case, involving RRE, shows > >that such misconduct can be professionally very damaging for the victim of > >InstPhys. > > > >Denis Bailey, who flew me and my co-author to Dublin to give a seminar on > >e-m recently (Search for "Dublin" on my website), should be linked up with > >you. However, when I said "Kelly", he said Ireland was full of Kellys. > (This > >undermines your self-description "Al Kelly (Ireland)" below. That is unless > >nearly all Irish Kellys are low grade C3. > > > >Ivor Catt 16may01 > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Al Kelly > >To: [snip] > >Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:42 AM > >Subject: Re Essen and H & K Test > > > > > >> Hi Ivor, > >> It might interest you to know that after all those years Essen's > >> objections to the H & K experiment are totally vindicated. I have an > >> article coming out in Dec 2000 (late in publication) of Physics Essays. > >> It proves from hitherto unpublished data that was suppressed prove that > >> Essen was right. > >> Irinically, the cesiunm clocks run slow with respect to the geocentre, > >> but that is another story. I have also another article showing that this > >> has naught to do with the ideas of S.R. in Infinite Energy special > >> edition No 39 laterthis year (on Einstein and his theories). > >> I know of your anomoly indeed. > >> Maybe you would be interested in actual detailed experiments that I did > >> on spinning Magnets and Solenoids which whow that Faraday's Law is wrong > >> (Physics Essays Vol 12 No 2, 1999 p372-82. F's Law was named after the > >> great man but he never said what they named after him (that I could > >> locate). > >> Regards, > >> Al Kelly (Ireland) > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 13:47:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26033; Fri, 18 May 2001 13:45:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:45:25 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:45:14 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: graviton website Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1221903749==_ma============" Resent-Message-ID: <"4RJIX.0.cM6.bdO1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42654 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1221903749==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" check out this web site http://www.geocities.com/karitahdu/gravitonpower.html Does anyone know Dr. Hideo Seki? --============_-1221903749==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" graviton website
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--============_-1221903749==_ma============-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 15:09:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA20772; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:07:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:07:39 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 18:14:07 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: Search for local terms, sayings...: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"iwlRL.0.U45.gqP1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42655 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am looking for turns of phrase relating to dunder-headed-ness or fool sayings.... Examples: Shallow in the think Tank wrapped too tight one oar in the water Please add any and all you know of. These are going to be used to show some foreign students examples of loo loos off the port bow of US language.... Lost lock ( as in phase locked loop ) signal equal to noise level scrambler switched in no de-scrambler in circuit bubbles in the think tanks tanks are all foamed up mental compression of an over ripe tomato functioning at a high speed crawl wearing full Heat Shields and searching the freezer no too tighly wrapped not playing with a full deck of cards Add, please From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 15:17:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22954; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:15:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:15:31 -0700 Sender: hoyt@eskimo.com Message-ID: <3B059EED.42253A4A@home.com> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:15:09 -0700 From: "Hoyt Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Search for local terms, sayings...: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tW2aQ2.0.ac5.3yP1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42656 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic a brick short of a load his elevator doesn't go all the way to the top a couple of bubbles off of level Isn't completely plumb a few chairs short of a dining room set One tree short of a hammock John Schnurer wrote: > > I am looking for turns of phrase relating to dunder-headed-ness or > fool sayings.... > > Examples: > > Shallow in the think Tank > wrapped too tight > one oar in the water > > Please add any and all you know of. These are going to be used > to show some foreign students examples of loo loos off the port bow of US > language.... > > Lost lock ( as in phase locked loop ) > signal equal to noise level > scrambler switched in no de-scrambler in circuit > > bubbles in the think tanks > tanks are all foamed up > mental compression of an over ripe tomato > functioning at a high speed crawl > wearing full Heat Shields and searching the freezer > no too tighly wrapped > not playing with a full deck of cards > > Add, please From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 15:47:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA00725; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:44:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:44:15 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c0dfec$07b5ba40$64e13604@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: Cc: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010518121041.0292bbe0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 18:43:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"EJ8LU3.0.8B.zMQ1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42657 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing > >Lynn; I have been following this free energy suppression operation by our > >govt for years. Believe it or not It is a reality. > > Jed: Yes, it is, but it has nothing to do with helicopters or men in black. I > have not only been following it, I have observed it first hand. Here are > some examples: Jed, you should correct this to read: "but it need have nothing to do with helicopters or men in black." Tales of raids come from people with every bit as much apparent veracity as you have. That having been said, not all such tales are true, of course. > * A senior scientist reports excess heat CF experiments with 100% > reproducibility. He is ordered to stop the research and assigned a menial > job in the stockroom. And the senior scientist was whom? And the lab was which one? And the official reason for the reassignment was what? Who was it that did the ordering and their justification was what? And after he was ordered to stop the research, he was wasted in stockroom chores rather than reassigned to a different project why? Was his pay cut when he went into the stock room, or did he retain full salary and benefits there? Unless you can elaborate a little bit, your evidences are every bit as suspect as stories about men in black. > * Yesterday, the president revealed an energy plan which hands over $2 > billion in "incentives" to nuclear energy, which it guts research and > support for wind and solar energy. Had the Left not taken an anti-scientific stand against nuclear power in the 70s and 80s (and had the rest of us not gone along with it) CA would not be having shortages now. Wind and solar were supported quite well--the result has been more efficient windmill generators and solar cells and the like, which are very nice for some things but lack the necessary energy density needed by heavy industry. And I for one would not like to see windmill farms proliferate at the expense of a pretty view--they are as ugly in their own way as any oil rig. > * Coal and gas industry lobbyists feed bogus cost estimates to Congressmen, > and publish the numbers in the Congressional Record and in the mass media, > trying to convince the public that wind power is ten times more expensive > than it really is, that it massacres birds, and that it is a major problem > on days when the wind does not blow much. Why, yes, they do seem to have learned some tricks from the anti-nuclear brigades of the last few decades, what with their ridiculous threat estimates about the dangers of nuclear power and their sham science reporting about the hazards of nuclear waste. Thanks to them, rather than having more clean power from nuclear sources, we have been gleefully pumping additional pollution from fossil fuels into the air. Rather than having a relatively minor amount of nuclear waste to concentrate and store, we instead continue to use smokestacks in the finest tradition of the 19th century. Oh goody. > This is how real suppression works. You haven't told us how real suppression works. You told us about some anonymous "senior scientist" reassigned to the stock room, asserting that this was because of a successful CF result with some kind of "100% reproducibility" (which is nonsense on its face), without providing anything like a rationale for it. Then you groused about the way political decision making happens. > The kind you are imagining only happens > in forth-rate thriller novels. Real world tactics are quite effective, > probably more effective than helicopters would be, since they would only > draw attention to the inventor, and a real inventor would never be stopped > by a raid. Oh please--any inventor, real or not, could be either cowed or bribed into silence, particularly if they have young children. We have all seen inventors essentially leave the scene for far more trivial reasons than raids on their labs--personality conflicts online sometimes suffice--you think a serious threat to life or limb wouldn't work? Or how about an offer of half a million right now to just keep quiet? If the "men in black" (assuming they exist) wanted to shut an inventor down, said inventor might find his power shut off at odd times, his credit report screwed up, unaccounted for credit card bills turning up, his hard drive wiped by a virus, his phone lines mysteriously failing to work, and any number of a thousand other things to screw up his life and make for a very bad hair day. And we aren't even up to black helicopters yet. And black helicopters might be sent because 1) an inventor has something worth taking by force or 2) because he doesn't and the disinformation value of having him raided would set other inventors onto his false path, or 3) any one of a number other devious reasons. And meanwhile, there will be guys like you chaffing up the chatrooms and forums arguing that raids never happen because that only happens in fourth-rate thrillers. kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 15:57:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07754; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:55:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:55:12 -0700 Message-ID: <3B05A820.66FA54CE@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:54:24 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for May 18, 2001] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kjBpJ2.0._u1.GXQ1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42658 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for May 18, 2001 Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 18:05:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "What's New" To: aki@ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 18 May 01 Washington, DC 1. CANADA WILL BACK MISSILE SHIELD FOR A PIECE OF THE ACTION. According to the National Post, a senior member of Canada's defense policy team explained that opposing the shield would cost Canada jobs and hundreds of millions of dollars of high- technology contracts. "We will try to safeguard the 1972 ABM Treaty," he said, "but, in the end, Canada will support the United States." Thus are partners openly purchased on the international market. It's not like this is something new. Bud McFarlane, National Security Advisor under President Reagan, boastfully recalls how he purchased Prime Minister Thatcher's support for SDI in 1984. In the privacy of Camp David, Thatcher had explained why SDI was such a lousy idea. Afterwards, the President asked McFarlane to go to London and try to persuade Mrs. Thatcher to adopt a more subdued position. McFarlane merely remarked to the Prime Minister that "the President believes that up to $300 million ought be subcontracted to British firms." She began to realize that SDI might have merit after all. 2. HARVARD BACKS HOLISTIC MEDICINE FOR A PIECE OF THE ACTION. Acknowledging that patients are experimenting increasingly with alternative treatments, the Harvard Medical School is creating an institute for nontraditional medicine. According to a recent Harvard study, Americans last year made an estimated 600 million office visits to practitioners of so-called "integrative" medicine, which combines mainstream and alternative treatments. More significantly, they dropped $30 billion on the treatments they received. Hmmm. Perhaps Harvard should also establish an institute for the study of astrology. 3. NASA SURVIVORS: NO RUSH TO FILL THE ADMINISTRATOR'S SLOT. You might think the President's Science Advisor would have some input into the choice of a replacement for Dan Goldin as Administrator of NASA except the President has no Science Advisor. The hot rumor inside NASA is that former Space Command General Tom Moorman will get the NASA job. But why not Denis Tito, the only recent space figure who is recognized by the public? 4. ENERGY: PRESIDENT BUSH'S "BOLD" PLAN. Many physicists will applaud the inclusion of nuclear power in a plan that emphasizes production, but they will recall that funding for development of a new generation of fission reactors, including inherently safe reactors, was almost eliminated years ago. Just-in-time delivery of new nuclear plants based on new technologies just can't happen. Added R&D funding for renewables, slashed in the Bush budget, is tied to ANWR and off-shore-drilling royalties. But efficiency and conservation are not quite forgotten: a tax credit is proposed for the purchase of hybrid gas/electric automobiles. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 20:23:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA19871; Fri, 18 May 2001 20:19:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 20:19:04 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Reverse cycle again Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 13:18:29 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA19841 Resent-Message-ID: <"Gvm4H3.0.Os4.eOU1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42659 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Why not use a small natural gas powered engine to provide the motive power for a reverse cycle heater? The excess heat from the engine itself adds to the heat provided to the home. That way the COP of 3-4 obtainable from the heat pump technology is combined with the the fact that gas is cheaper than electricity, and very little of the heat from the gas is wasted. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 21:46:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA06204; Fri, 18 May 2001 21:35:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 21:35:25 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B048007.F2BC8BAC@ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:33:45 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind Resent-Message-ID: <"11F_W.0.sW1.DWV1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42660 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms wrote: My wife and her >mother both saw a ghost one evening in their home. ***{I would suggest that your wife and her mother saw *something*, and that they, by virtue of their mindset at the time, *interpreted* it as a ghost. If you want to demonstrate that their interpretation of the event was correct, you are going to have to be able to replicate the situation, so that the claim can be studied and verified. Is that an unreasonable requirement? I think not: with all of the ghosts that people claim to have seen, and all the conversations they claim to have had with them, you would think that one of the suckers would have agreed to make himself available for scientific research. However, oddly enough, they have a perverse tendency to make their exit when the instruments come out. Why do you suppose that is? :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** The vision was the top part of >an Indian ***{That would be the feather, right? :-) --MJ}*** and it was visible for several minutes. Naturally, a person might >suggest a reflection or just misinterpreting a shadow. Both women tested >each of >these possibilities, yet the vision remained. How would you arrive at the >truth >and provide an explanation using your method? Would the first process be >rejection of the event in favor of hallucination because reason says that >ghosts >are impossible? ***{In the absence of the ability to replicate the situation, and study and verify the claim, we have to choose between believing someone misinterpreted what he or she saw, and believing that non-corporeal spirits of dead people float about, passing through walls, etc. Given those options, reasonable people will opt for the misinterpretation hypothesis every time. Why so? Because misinterpretation is very easy. For example, one day I was sitting at a table in a restaurant. I had finished my meal, the waitress had taken away everything but my cup of coffee and an almost empty glass of water which contained about an inch of crushed ice in the bottom, and I was sitting there reading the newspaper. Then, out of the corner of my eye, I caught a hint of movement. Looking up, I saw my water glass begin to move very slowly, via a circuitous path, from one side of the table to the other. Needless to say, the effect was electrifying: the hair on the back of my neck literally stood up. Finally, after the thing had moved about 3 feet and was on the verge of dropping off the edge of the table, I grabbed it. At that point, I noticed a faint, barely discernable streak of water on the table top, leading back to the initial position of the glass. I then held it up and looked at the bottom, where I noticed a tiny piece of crushed ice. So I did an experiment: I wiped the glass and the formica table top dry with a napkin, and set the glass down on it near its original position. Result: I watched it for about 3 minutes, during which time it didn't move. Then I wiped everything clean again, put a small chunk of ice on the bottom near the edge, and set the glass back down. Result: it sat there for a couple of minutes, until a sheen of condensation reformed over the bottom portion, and then began to move very slowly in the same direction as before. My conclusion: the table top, though not discernable to the eye, was very slightly off-level, and, when the coefficient of friction became low enough on the bottom of the glass, it began to slide very slowly down that slight slope. However, in order for the coefficient of friction to get low enough, air had to be able to circulate freely under the glass, so that a layer of condensation could be deposited there. Hence the requirement for the tiny ice crystal under the glass, near one of the edges. To the credulous, of course, such an episode would have been a clear cut instances of a ghost or poltergeist playing tricks. To a rational mind, however, it was something quite different. Bottom line: there is no way to decide what the proper interpretation of a phenomenon is, if you cannot investigate it under controlled conditions--which means: replication is absolutely mandatory. If you claim "antigravity," for example, then you had better be able to specify a protocol which will deliver up that result in the presence of a skeptic, so that he can analyze it, and verify that your interpretation is the correct one. If you cannot or will not do so, then reasonable people are going to assume that you are misinterpreting your data, and turn their attention to other things. --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] you assume that the DNA used for life on this world at this time would be >the same DNA operating on another planet at another time. ***{No. I realize that the term DNA, to a geneticist, is short for "deoxyribonucleic acid," which is a very specific chemical construct. However, when I used that term in our discussion, I was speaking loosely. I feel sure that life on alien worlds has evolved other encoding systems by which genetic information is passed on, including the information that determines which core understandings are placed in the minds of infants. If, for example, there are silicon based life forms, they cannot pass on their traits by means of "DNA" in the literal sense. Some other encoding system that accomplishes the same purpose will be required. Nevertheless, regardless of the genetic encoding system used by a species, if a child comes into the world after your death which has the understandings you had at your death, he will be you. It is not the encoding system that matters, but what is encoded. --MJ}*** The DNA on this planet >evolved from a common source and effectively removed competing forms. The >result >of this competition might well be different on another planet. ***{Yup. --MJ}*** I suggest it would >be hard to imagine how a being could be born based on different DNA with >sufficient similarity to you to contain your essence. ***{Why is it hard to imagine? The same computer algorithm must be expressed in many different machine codes in order to run on many different computer systems, yet, despite that, it will process the same inputs in the same way, and generate the same outputs. Thus if an alien being, for example, appears on some distant planet after your death, and if his problem solving algorithms are the same as yours were at the time of your death, then he will be you. The fact that the hardware is different does not matter. --MJ}*** >On the other hand, if you require only that the being, at its birth, have the >understanding you had at your death, then you might be condemning this >being to a >retarded existence should he be born 1000 years from now. ***{You seem fixated on the possibility that your next life will be *on Earth*, and you seem to assume that human progress will continue for the next 1000 years, rather than that mankind will sink into another dark age. While I see much evidence suggesting a less favorable outcome, let's assume you are correct, for the sake of argument. In that case, human evolution will be rapid, and in an upward direction, during the coming thousand years. Result: we can suppose that our descendants at that time will have bigger brains and higher order reasoning abilities, and when they come into the world, they will have the core understandings that are required for success in that cultural environment, rather than in this one. That means the average child in those times will come into the world with a mathematical aptitude which, today, would place him at the "genius" level, and with verbal reasoning aptitudes to match. Result: if a person spent his lifetime in our present society developing his verbal and mathematical reasoning abilities, so that, when he died, his understandings were extraordinary, he might come back in that future society, retaining those understandings, and yet be average or below average at the beginning of his new life. If, however, he spends his lifetime in our present society enmired in intellectual sloth, and dies with no more understanding of reality than he had as a young child, then it is unlikely that he could come back as a member of that future human society at all. The reason: genetic variation in that future society would probably be insufficient to generate core understandings as primitive as those he had when he died. Thus when the intellectual sloth comes back for his next life, he will have to do so in a primitive society, where his meager understandings are closer to the mean of the population. The implication: if the principle of continuity of mind is correct, then the primary task of life is to advance the level of your understanding of reality, in order to maximize your chances of coming back in a better world than this one. If, for example, you are an individualist who wants nothing more than to live free, you will never see the freedom you desire in this life, on this primitive world. You may rest assured, however, that the gigantic universe in which we live is teeming with worlds where the problems of authoritarian government have been solved, and the freedom you seek is a reality. The genetically encoded core understandings of the young on such worlds, however, are going to be far beyond those of children who begin lives on Earth, and far beyond those attained at the end of their lives by Earthlings who employ selective thinking in order to fit in. Thus if you are, after your death, going to have a chance to come back in a world where you can live free, you are going to have to forget about fitting in, and set aside the rewards that the pursuit of social expediency provides. Instead of that, you will have to be a seeker of truth, a person who pisses other people off by exploring the uncomfortable aspects of their belief systems, a person who argues, a person others perceive as "obnoxious," a person who is not popular, a person who doesn't fit in. If you can do that, and endure the punishment that such a course entails, then you will end this life as a person who deserves to be free. Result: in the life that follows, you will have the freedom that you earned. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> >I am what I have experienced, I would not be completely me unless these >> >experiences also occurred. >> >> ***{I do not agree. Experience provides us with data, but what we do with >> the data--i.e., the understandings that we extract from it--is what counts. >> Thus we are not our experiences. Each person is a mind--a unique >> consciousness--with a set of response tendencies (understandings) and it is >> those response tendencies which make each of us unique, and which must be >> replicated in another mind after our deaths, if we are to live again. >> --MJ}*** > >People have been trying to separate nurture from nature forever. While >you have >made up your mind about this issue, I'm still learning. I know that my >response >tendencies have changed over time, based on experience. After all, this >is the >only way personal growth takes place. I shudder at the thought of dying >when I >was 20 and coming back 1000 years later. I would be in deep trouble. ***{You misunderstand. I am not denying that growth in understanding takes place during life, I am affirming that it does--or that it can--and I have done so repeatedly in this very discussion. When I refer to "core understandings", I am talking about the understandings that, via genetic encoding, are implanted in the brain of a new child. Of course, once he is in the world and gaining experience, and thinking about those experiences, he will modify those core understandings. This process of modification will continue throughout his life, and, at the end, if he has reasoned well and consistently, there is the possibility that he may be greatly advanced over the state he had when he entered the world. And, alternatively, if he has reasoned poorly or inconsistently, his mind may be full of misunderstandings and, thus, at a more primitive level than when he began. --MJ}*** >> Since I do not remember any previous life experience, >> >I would never know whether I was the first of my kind or the 1000th. >> >> ***{If you were the first, that would violate the principle of continuity >> of mind. Higher species evolve from lower species. Thus the existence of a >> sentient species as advanced as humans can only occur at the end of a >> lengthy evolutionary sequence that must, somewhere in space and time, have >> put forth a creature who, at his death, possessed the understandings you >> possessed when you came into the world. Result: he became you. The >> implication: we all began as a lower form, perhaps a worm or a >> slug--perhaps even an amoeba--and we have each struggled through a vast >> progression of lives, stretching all the way from the beginning of the >> phylogenetic scale, to become what we are now. --MJ}*** > >How do you know that we humans are the highest form? ***{I am quite certain that we are not. I have said that over and over, in this very discussion. --MJ}*** Perhaps races of beings >exist who are to us like we are to the monkeys. ***{I absolutely guarantee it. --MJ}*** Would you next come back as one >of them? If so, what good would your understanding of this lifeform be? ***{I suppose you are asking what possible use there could be in understanding the psychological workings of the human mind, if in your next life you will be dealing with more advanced minds. If that is the question, my answer is straightforward: the person who truly understands the workings of the human mind will be in a position to eliminate the multitudes of corrupt motivations and unreasonable behaviors which most people exhibit, and thus to achieve, for himself, a more advanced mind--which means: he will be in a better position to interact with advanced beings, since he will be more like them than like his fellow men. If, on the other hand, he is obsessed with fitting in, and, because of that, avoids understanding and correcting the common faults of his species, then if he somehow manages to be born into a more advanced species, his "human failings" will relegate him to the status of village idiot. --MJ}*** >> As far as >> >I'm concerned, I'm the first and have no way to know when I might come >> >again, if >> >ever. So the model becomes pointless to me. >> >> ***{Reason provides you with a way to know, so the model is not pointless. >> --MJ}*** > >Reason provides the answer only if you respect reason, as you do. If you >believe, >as I do, that reason is only a tool and it can provide any answer you want >on such >a subject, then I'm still at a loss. I'm suggesting that reason can only >apply >within a known framework. It can not help you extrapolate outside of that >framework, which is what you are doing. ***{I fail to see the point of repeatedly intoning the above incantation. I have stated my reasoning in great detail. To overturn it, you need to either find a hole in the logic, or a premise which is not factual. If you cannot do either of those things, then, like it or not, reason will have succeeded in explicating that which, according to you, it cannot explicate. --MJ}*** >> On the other hand "conventional" >> >reincarnation, if real, has other important implications beyond my being >> >reborn. >> >These implications are missing in your model. >> >> ***{Do you discount the possibility of witches riding brooms? If so, then >> you have even stronger grounds for discounting the miracle of memory >> transferrence. --MJ}*** > >Mitchell, I assume the image of witches riding brooms is an allegory you >are using >and not meant to be literal. ***{No, Ed, it is meant quite literally. Images of witches riding brooms, historically, have been considered factual by millions of people, and most of them also had images of ghosts, demons, devils, and a monotheistic God which they considered to be equally factual. In truth, however, such images share a common fault: they postulate an effect without a cause. The notion of a witch riding a broom is nonsensical, because a broom has no mechanism for providing lift. And the notion of seeing a ghost--a supposed non-corporeal entity that can pass through walls--is similarly absurd: photons carry energy, and work must be done to deflect them from their paths. If the ghost is visible, therefore, it must be corporeal--i.e., capable of doing work on entities that exist in the world. But if it is corporeal, how can it pass through solid objects? Clearly, there is no substance known to science which could account for such alleged behavior. The question, therefore, is how we ought to respond to such claims. You evidently think we should just choose to believe the supposed "eyewitness testimony" despite its mind-boggling implausibility, and that we should focus our efforts on figuring out *how* such events happen. My attitude, on the other hand, is that with six billion people in the world, most of whom are demonstrably given to wishful thinking, a healthy skepticism is required. Thus if you want to convince me that ghosts exist, you will have to produce one in the laboratory, so that it can be examined under controlled conditions. And the same applies to witches riding brooms, flying pigs, demons, vampires, werewolves, leprechauns, angels, and, yes, even God himself. --MJ}*** Events occur in this world that simply can not be >explained or understood using our models. It is not rational to reject >them all >just because they do not fit your expectations. ***{You strain your credibility when you claim that such events "cannot be explained or understood using our models," while at the same time insisting the they cannot possibly be misinterpreted. When you insist not merely that your wife and her mother saw *something*, but that, in fact, they saw a *ghost*, you beg the question. And the question is: how do you know that? Why isn't it more likely that they misinterpreted what they saw, than that ghosts exist? How is their claim about seeing a ghost any different than a claim about seeing a witch riding a broom, or a leprechaun? Would you believe them if they claimed to have seen a leprechaun? If they claimed to have seen water run uphill, would you believe that? --MJ}*** When this approach is taken in >science, no progress is made. ***{That would be the approach of demanding a protocol which permits replication by independent observers, right? In my view, that is the approach which makes progress possible in science. How could progress be made, if scientists were in the habit of wasting their time and resources investigating every screw-loose anecdotal claim made by credulous members of the general public? To me, it seems obvious that resources need to be directed to areas where the evidence is strong, if the rate of progress is to be maximized. --MJ}*** The same can be said with respect to a spiritual >understanding. Like all subjects, a student must engage in study, >research and >debate before the truth can be understood. Simply using logic or "rational" >deduction is not enough simply because the "facts" are not in evidence. ***{I'm sorry, Ed, but I am a finite being. I don't have time to investigate every silly, unsubstantiated claim, and I especially do not have time to waste on mountainous implausibilities put forth by people who claim to be able to see through other people's eyes, but who refuse to make themselves available for laboratory evaluation by skeptical observers. Sai Baba, for example, could easily prove that he can see through other people's eyes, by simply making himself freely available to scientists who, for example, could lock him in a closed room, from which vantage point he could observe the goings on outside that room through another person's eyes, and then write down a detailed record of those events, which could then be compared to the actual events and verified. If he did that, the world would fall at his feet. Yet he hasn't, and the question is why not. My answer: he hasn't done it because he can't. --MJ}*** >I have gathered more "facts" about the subject than you have ***{Doubtful. I have been reading about and discussing such things for most of my life. --MJ}*** , hence I will >naturally arrive at different conclusions using the same method of logic. ***{I fail to see the logic of believing claims that are not subject to independent verification, especially when they clash with claims that have been replicated--i.e., with the findings of conventional science. --MJ}*** >> >> We appear unique to >> >> >ourselves only because that is the way we were designed to feel. Your >> >> >logic is >> >> >much like my saying that because I can imagine cold fusion, therefore it >> >> >must be >> >> >real. >> >> >> >> ***{I'm not saying that our ability to imagine living again makes it >>real. >> >> In terms of the CF metaphor, the reasoning would proceed as follows: (a) >> >> the fact (let's assume) that cold fusion is taking place in Sam's lab now >> >> proves that conditions exist which are capable of bringing cold >>fusion from >> >> a state of nonexistence to a state of existence; (b) the vastness, >> >> complexity, and ever changing nature of the universe suggests that, after >> >> Sam's experiment is over, those conditions will eventually occur >>again; and >> >> (c) logic requires that, if they do, cold fusion will occur again. >> > >> >And if CF does happen again, Sam would be able to detect its presence. >> >How would >> >you detect the presence of another "you"? >> >> ***{By means of the reasoning we are discussing--to wit: each phenomenon >> has a set of characteristics that define the essence of what it is, and >> those characteristics do not place limitations on its location in space and >> time. Result: a phenomenon will recur whenever its defining characteristics >> recur. In the case of an individual consciousness, a physical body and >> sensory and motor nerves are required, plus a brain to which those nerves >> are connected, and a collection of understandings that can be modified on >> the basis of thought and/or experience. These are the physical requirements >> of consciousness, and involve material entities--objects. Consciousness, >> however, is a phenomenon, not an object. By its nature, an individual >> consciousness can exist only once in the universe at a given time, but, >> once it has passed into nonexistence (death), it can arise again, if the >> necessary conditions are satisfied. --MJ}*** > >I think we have arrived at the same end point, but by a different route. >I assume >the consciousness of an individual is transferred to another body after >death, but >only after it is stored in the unseen world. On the other hand, you assume >consciousness is transferred once the correct receptacle has been made by >chance. ***{Not by chance. Each species has a niche, a position in the scheme of things, and the nature of that niche demands that certain core understandings be in the mind of a child of that species from infancy, if he is to be successful. Thus natural selection--adaptation to an environmental niche a.k.a. "survival of the fittest"--creates, on each planet where life evolves, a mechanism which places the appropriate core understandings in the brains of infants. Result: we can expect core understandings to be encoded into the brains of infants on planets throughout the universe. Given the certainty that there are countless inhabited planets throughout the universe and countless intelligent species, it becomes a virtual certainty that, after your death, a new being will eventually be conceived somewhere, whose mind bears the precise understandings you carried at the time of your death. If so, he will be you. --MJ}*** Thus >In either case, we are "born again" so to speak. I like my mechanism better >because I can look for evidence, while you have to rely on probability theory. ***{And I like mine better, because I don't have to waste my time attempting to prove the existence of ghosts, memory transferrence, and other implausible, non-corporeal silliness. :-) --MJ}*** >> >> In my view, the answer is obvious: each mind is a phenomenon, not an >> >> object--so much so that the very idea of pointing at an object and >>saying: >> >> "That is my mind," is ludicrous. >> >> >> >> --Mitchell Jones}*** >> > >> >Unfortunately, the mind is based on the brain and the brain is an object. >> >> ***{All phenomena arise out of the interaction of entities--i.e., physical >> objects. However, a physical object, once dissipated, cannot recur, whereas >> a phenomenon can arise again. Since a mind--a specific, individual >> consciousness--is a phenomenon, not an object, it follows that when its >> defining characteristics find expression again, in another set of objects, >> after the destruction of the prior objects which expressed those >> characteristics, that mind will exist again. --MJ}*** > >This is like saying that if carbon, sulfur and potassium nitrate should >all come >together by chance in one spot, then be mixed together and subjected to a >flame, >an explosion (phenomenon) would result. I have to agree, but I'm not going to >hold my breath. ***{It's not the same, because there is no mechanism operating throughout the universe which tends to bring such chemicals together. However, as noted above, there *is* a mechanism operating throughout the universe that implants core understandings in the minds of infants--to wit: Darwinian natural selection. --MJ}*** >> This >> >object contains too many different features to be reproduced by chance >> >alone. On >> >the other hand, I have to admit a very, very small probability exists in >> >principle >> >that a brain could be completely duplicated, for what that is worth. >> >> ***{You keep saying "completely duplicated," "identical," etc., whereas I >> have said from the beginning that it is only the defining characteristics >> of an individual mind which need to be duplicated. Yes, a brain is >> required. Yes, sensory and motor nerves are required. Yes, a body is >> required. Yes, for advanced beings, the capability to lay down memories is >> required. And so on. However, the physical structures that are >> involved--the brain, the nerves, the body, etc.--do not have to be >> identical in *all* respects. They only need to be identical in those >> limited respects that capture the essense of the person--which means: the >> brain-body system must possess the same response tendencies that >> characterized the former person, at the time of his or her death. > >I suggest this is splitting hairs. Just how much needs to be identical >for the >essence to be captured? I was assuming the total package would be needed. ***{Why? I said at the very beginning that this was not the case. Obviously, as I said in my very first post in this thread, if you lose a finger, you would still be you. If you lose an arm, you would still be you. If you lose an eye, you will still be you. If, due to a stroke, you developed total amnesia, you would still be you. However, there are limits: a bullet through the brain, for example, and what remains will no longer be you. What this exercise demonstrates is that some of your characterists are essential, and others are nonessential, to your presence in this world. The implication: when a new child comes into the universe after your death, he only needs to possess your essential characteristics--i.e., your understandings and the capability to think and act in accordance with them--in order to be you. --MJ}*** After >all, if you were born blind, for example, would not your reaction to the >world be >different from your present reaction? ***{Of course. If you were blind, you would be subjected to different stimuli. Hence even if your understandings--your unconsciously encoded response tendencies--were identically the same, you would respond differently. --MJ}*** Would not your essence show itself in a >different way? ***{Yup, but it would still be you. --MJ}*** >> That >> means the brain-body system must come into the world with the core >> understandings the former person possessed at the time of his death, and >> with the physical capability to act and think in accordance with those >> understandings. Beyond that, nothing further is required. The brain can be >> larger or smaller, the physiology can be different, the color of the skin >> can be different, the distribution of body hair can be different, the body >> hair can be replaced by feathers or scales, and so on. There need be no >> connectedness in space or time or memory or physique or physiology or >> species, to the former person. All that is needed is that the new being >> possess the characteristics that defined the essence of what the former >> being was. If it does, then, by the law of identity, the new being will be >> him. --MJ}*** > >You need to be clearer about what you mean by "essence". ***{The basic idea is that out of the infinitude of details that characterize a person at a given moment, only a tiny subset define who he is. You can get a haircut and still be you. If a different person's heart is transplanted into your chest, the entity which results will still be you. However, other things cannot be changed. If, for example, a different person's brain is transplanted into your skull, the resulting entity will not be you. Or, if only the portion of another person's brain that stores his understandings is transplanted, the resulting entity will also not be you. The reason: its entire problem solving style and way of dealing with the world, including its personality, will be changed. --MJ}*** I suggest a lot of >people would not want to be handicapped by their present essence. ***{You are right. A lot of people are very uncomfortable with who they are, because they have permitted *society*--i.e., social pressure, the desire to fit in--to control their intellectual development. --MJ}*** Why would you >think your essence is worth repeating? ***{I am totally comfortable with who I am, Ed, because I have never permitted social pressure to influence what I did or did not believe. However, if the principle of continuity of mind is true, then it doesn't really matter whether a person is happy with what he has become. The fact is that, with natural selection operating throughout the universe, and, as a consequence, with core understandings being implanted in the brains of mind boggling numbers of infants every second, each person's essence is going to be repeated after his death, and he is going to live again, whether he likes it or not. This principle applies to us all, heroes and villains alike. --MJ}*** Personally, I would hope for a better >essence. ***{Then you will have to create it yourself, by improving your understandings. I therefore advise you to devote your remaining years to the merciless application of reason to the various beliefs that you hold due to social pressure, so that you can identify, and correct, any errors. You should improve your understandings as rapidly as you can in the time that remains, because by the principle of continuity of mind you will get, in the next life, the rewards or punishments that you earned in this one. --MJ}*** >> >The past life had meaning at the time. It has no meaning to you now >> >because you >> >have no way to know whether that life actually existed. >> >> ***{To paraphrase our former president: "it depends on what the definition >> of "meaning" is." :-) >> >> If you require conscious memories of events in the previous life in order >> to meet your definition of "meaning," then, obviously, by my model you will >> not have them. >> >> If you require conscious knowledge that you must have lived before in order >> to satisfy your definition of "meaning," then by my model, you will have >> it: *reason* supports the conclusion that we lived before and will live >> again, despite the absence of conscious memories of prior lives. >> >> If you require that the benefits of what you learned in your prior lives be >> available to you in this life, then by my model you will have it: the >> understandings you extracted from the experiences you had in your prior >> lives defined the essence of what you were at the end of your previous >> life, and, thus, had to be present in the new child, in order for him to be >> you. > >My model (reincarnation) produces the same result. How will we decide >which one >is real? ***{I will use reason, and, hopefully, you will do likewise. :-) --MJ}*** >Ed ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 18 23:38:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA32214; Fri, 18 May 2001 23:38:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:38:04 -0700 Message-ID: <04c801c0e025$7dc13640$aeb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Reverse cycle again Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 00:34:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"EHGL_2.0.Et7.CJX1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42661 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 10:18 PM Subject: Reverse cycle again Hi Robin, you wrote: > Hi, > > Why not use a small natural gas powered engine to provide the motive > power for a reverse cycle heater? > The excess heat from the engine itself adds to the heat provided to the > home. That way the COP of 3-4 obtainable from the heat pump technology > is combined with the the fact that gas is cheaper than electricity, and > very little of the heat from the gas is wasted. > Good idea. About all of the refrigerated trucks and rail cars use propane or diesel fired I.C. engines for running the compressors. Even the piggy-back trailers that the railroads carry have them. These have replaced the huge blocks of ice, dry ice, and LN2 for railroad cars, too. Regards, Frederick > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 06:47:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA04096; Sat, 19 May 2001 06:46:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 06:46:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0679E1.2F5BD685@austininstruments.com> Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 08:49:21 -0500 From: John Fields Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lightspeed correction X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mxhyo2.0.u_.Cbd1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42662 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > NOTE: > > The effect cited below is the result of trying to force energy > through a materials faster than light will travel ...through the material > .. > Example: If light travels at 60 percents of C in a variety of > glass then you can get his type of radiation if you try to force energy > through the glass at 70 percents of C.... But the whole is still below C. > > > Travel at _faster_ than light speed is possible in this universe and it > > happens all the time. What the shock wave looks like is a cone of blue > > light called Cerenkov radiation. --- Yes, of course. Please notice that I wrote "_faster_ than light speed" as opposed to "C", which I thought would serve to differentiate between the speed of light in the material and the speed of light in vacuo. Thanks for the elucidation. --- John Fields, Austin Instruments, Inc. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 06:53:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA06246; Sat, 19 May 2001 06:53:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 06:53:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3B067B5F.71A33549@austininstruments.com> Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 08:55:43 -0500 From: John Fields Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Search for local terms, sayings...: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bsqeh.0.UX1.Ahd1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42663 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > I am looking for turns of phrase relating to dunder-headed-ness or > fool sayings.... > > Examples: > > Shallow in the think Tank > wrapped too tight > one oar in the water --- Lights on but nobody home. --- To email, please add "nospam" to the end of the subject text. John Fields, Austin Instruments, Inc. El Presidente Austin, Republic of Texas "I speak for my company" http://www.austininstruments.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 07:44:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27041; Sat, 19 May 2001 07:43:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 07:43:09 -0700 From: "J & D Kooistra" To: Subject: Re: Ghosts--was: The Principle of Continuity of Mind Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 10:41:13 -0400 Message-ID: <01c0e071$c09cc640$LocalHost@jeffery> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"tbo6K1.0.Nc6.zPe1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42664 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind >Ed Storms wrote: > >My wife and her mother both saw a ghost one evening in their home. > >***{I would suggest that your wife and her mother saw *something*, and that >they, by virtue of their mindset at the time, *interpreted* it as a ghost. >If you want to demonstrate that their interpretation of the event was >correct, you are going to have to be able to replicate the situation, so >that the claim can be studied and verified. I'll go along with the "saw something" part, and even with the "interpreted" part--i.e. if i saw something that looked like a '66 Corvette, I would no doubt interpret that sighting as a '66 Corvette. But the verification protocol doesn't quite follow, or we'd have to throw out lots of other topics subsumed under "science." Even if I never saw another '66 Corvette, I would be led to believe I really saw one if there was evidence from other people who also claimed to have seen '66 Corvettes. One could not know with the same level of certainty that ones "knows" things in physics, but one could certainly come up to the same confidence level one arrives at concerning certain "facts" in, say, Sociology. >Is that an unreasonable requirement? I think not: with all of the ghosts >that people claim to have seen, and all the conversations they claim to >have had with them, you would think that one of the suckers would have >agreed to make himself available for scientific research. However, oddly >enough, they have a perverse tendency to make their exit when the >instruments come out. Well, perhaps some of them have, MJ. But what would you do if a ghost popped up in your room and said:"Get some guys from the university in here--I want to be studied." You'd run right down to Local U. and say, "A ghost is at my place and wants you guys to investigate him!" Yeah, sure you would. >Why do you suppose that is? :-) We're not far enough along in the game to make a decision on that. If "ghosts" are just some sort of odd physical effect, then no doubt we could explain it, and houses that seem to be exceptionally haunted would sooner or later surrender up their secrets. If, on the other hand, ghosts have minds of their own, then you have a much trickier problem to tackle. In any event, your brand of skepticism leads one to not bother to look at all. >The vision was the top part of an Indian and it was visible for several minutes. Naturally, a person might >suggest a reflection or just misinterpreting a shadow. Both women tested each of these possibilities, yet the >vision remained. How would you arrive at the truth and provide an explanation using your method? Would the >first process be rejection of the event in favor of hallucination because reason says that ghosts are >impossible? >***{In the absence of the ability to replicate the situation, and study and >verify the claim, we have to choose between believing someone >misinterpreted what he or she saw, and believing that non-corporeal spirits >of dead people float about, passing through walls, etc. No--that doesn't follow. In a murder investigation, one need not have the suspect commit another murder to demostrate guilt. In the ghost case, one need not believe that the ghost is a non-corporeal spirit of a dead person to at least start looking into the matter. >Given those options, reasonable people will opt for the misinterpretation hypothesis >every time. No. Over time, as more and more people admit to having seen "something", a reasonable person begins to believe there might be a "something" there worth looking into. At that point, he will either start to do some looking himself, or just sit back and wait to see what other kind of data trickles in. He would not simply make unwarranted, not to mention rude, assertions about other people's perceptual abilities and mindsets. That is antithetical to doing science, although it does tend to make the practitioner feel superior. >Why so? Because misinterpretation is very easy. For example, one day I was >sitting at a table in a restaurant. I had finished my meal, the waitress >had taken away everything but my cup of coffee and an almost empty glass of >water which contained about an inch of crushed ice in the bottom, and I was >sitting there reading the newspaper. Then, out of the corner of my eye, I >caught a hint of movement. Looking up, I saw my water glass begin to move >very slowly, via a circuitous path, from one side of the table to the >other. Needless to say, the effect was electrifying: the hair on the back >of my neck literally stood up. Hmmm--I would have figured this out a bit quicker I think, but that doesn't matter. The difficulty here is that you, when faced with something unusual, sought an explanation not requiring ghosts or magic. By extension, our we to conclude that Dr. Storms wife and mother-in-law, being unreasonable sorts no doubt, would have witnessed the moving cup and immediately concluded "A ghost!"? Perhaps instead they are every bit as reasonable as you, and were in fact witnesses to something that did not readily lend itself to a mundane explanation. Do you even know Mrs. Storms? Is she routinely given to seeing ghosts? Granted, one story of a ghost sighting doesn't compel anyone to let the dirty dishes pile up in the sink while he pursues an explanation, nor even would a hundred such sightings. But maintaining the comfortable fiction that somehow, if you'd been there, YOU would have been able to figure out what it REALLY was, is, unfortunately, nothing more than comforting. It certainly isn't science. >Bottom line: there is no way to decide what the proper interpretation of a >phenomenon is, if you cannot investigate it under controlled >conditions--which means: replication is absolutely mandatory. No, this is simply wrong and kindergarten level philosophy of science. Some phenomena lend themselves to replicability, others do not, and in between are a bunch of things that lend themselves to it in varying degrees. > If you claim "antigravity," for example, then you had better be able to specify a >protocol which will deliver up that result in the presence of a skeptic, so >that he can analyze it, and verify that your interpretation is the correct >one. If you cannot or will not do so, then reasonable people are going to >assume that you are misinterpreting your data, and turn their attention to >other things. Well, now this IS true in the case of anti-gravity machines, which are supposed to be devices using some trick of physics, and hence, by the very claim of what they are, must be replicable by a skeptic actually capable of doing the replication (as opposed to sitting in a chair debunking things in front of the fireplace). But ghosts are not, at this point in the game, such things. kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 08:07:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04538; Sat, 19 May 2001 08:06:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 08:06:07 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c0e06c$94d2b2e0$668f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: You were saying, Robin? Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 09:04:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E042.A4C04020" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"305gy2.0.l61.Ule1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42665 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E042.A4C04020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some facts and figures for Transport Refrigeration Units. http://es.epa.gov/ncerqa/progress/sbir/pollution/68d98131.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E042.A4C04020 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Waste-Heat Driven Absorption Transport Refrigerator.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Waste-Heat Driven Absorption Transport Refrigerator.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://es.epa.gov/ncerqa/progress/sbir/pollution/68d98131.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://es.epa.gov/ncerqa/progress/sbir/pollution/68d98131.html Modified=20F2483B6CE0C001A2 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E042.A4C04020-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 08:26:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA13454; Sat, 19 May 2001 08:24:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 08:24:46 -0700 Message-ID: <005001c0e06f$2db37060$668f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Ammonia Absorption Refrigeration Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 09:22:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0E045.3D77CAC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ode133.0.8I3.-0f1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42666 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0E045.3D77CAC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C0E045.3D77CAC0" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C0E045.3D77CAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ammonia Absorption Refrigeration Ammonia Absorption Refrigeration=20 =20 Simple refrigeration technology designed to operate on low grade heat=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- General Description=20 Ammonia Absorption Refrigeration is very useful for production of = refrigeration effect with the use of heat energy. Luck has it that this = system will operate very well with 250 degrees F ( 121 degrees C ) = temperature or even lower. Such temperatures are readily available from = various sources, such as exhaust steam from back pressure turbine or = heat generated from diesel exhaust gases, simple solar concentrators, = geothermal, etc.=20 Absorption refrigeration was invented in 1850 by French engineer = Ferdinand P.E. Carre, and it got nearly completely replaced by = compression refrigeration in the last 100 years because of simpler = compression refrigeration equipment and less hassle with it.=20 Ammonia Absorption Refrigeration, although very simple in principle, is = far more complex resulting in more expensive set up. Nevertheless, if = there is availability of free waste heat, this additional expense is = very quickly recovered and absorption refrigeration will gain the = economic advantage over compression refrigeration where the energy cost = to drive compressor will always be more expensive. In areas of the world = where electric power is expensive, the ammonia absorption refrigeration = is economically unbeatable if driven by waste heat. Refrigeration = produced by ammonia absorption system can be used in cold storage, food = processing, ice production, air conditioning, and many other uses.=20 Principle of Operation=20 Ammonia Absorption Refrigeration has "High Side" (high pressure side) = and "Low Side"=20 (low pressure side) just like an ordinary compression refrigeration. = Nearly pure ammonia is generated in High Side by heat desorption from = aqua ammonia, this nearly pure ammonia vapor is condensed in air cooled = or water cooled condenser. Liquid ammonia is then let down into low = pressure evaporator, Low Side, via expansion valve or float controlled = valve. Liquid ammonia boils in low pressure, absorbing heat and turning = back into vapor. Ammonia vapor is then reabsorbed in weak aqua ammonia = solution, thus completing the refrigeration cycle.=20 The cycle starts with centrifugal or piston pump (the only moving part = of the system) pumping strong aqua ammonia, called strong liquor (about = 38% ammonia concentration), from absorber into ammonia generator. The = mechanically driven pump also produces the necessary pressure difference = between high side and low side, in other words, the pump takes strong = liquor at about 30 psi (2 atm) and pressurizes it to 150 psi (10.2 atm). = Multi stage centrifugal pump is needed to overcome this 120 psi pressure = difference. The pumping energy required is only a few % of the entire = refrigeration energy requirement. Pumped strong liquor passes into = generator via heat exchanger where strong liquor is preheated before = being discharged into ammonia generator. The generator is heated with = saturated steam or other heat source via heating coils or tube bundles. = Ammonia is driven out of solution and rises through distilling column = into condenser. Weak aqua ammonia solution, weak liquor ( about 24% = ammonia concentration), return backs into absorber through heat = exchanger to preheat strong liquor.=20 The heat introduced into absorption system in generator (from steam = heat) and evaporator (from actual refrigeration operation) has to be = rejected to outside. One heat ejection occurs in ammonia condenser and = other heat ejection occurs in ammonia absorber. Reabsorpion of ammonia = into weak liquor generates heat and unfortunately this heat has to be = rejected so the absorption process can function. Aqua ammonia consist of = water and ammonia. Water will easily absorb ammonia and stay in solution = under normal temperature, hence absorber has to be cooled with cooling = water or air.=20 Evaporated ammonia in generator is passed through distilling column = where the ammonia is concentrated into nearly pure ammonia vapor before = going into condenser.=20 Once ammonia is turned into liquid it is let down into evaporator, low = pressure side, where ammonia is again turned into vapor, by evaporation, = while picking up heat from confined refrigerated space. Ammonia vapor is = then absorbed in absorber to complete the cycle.=20 Construction Materials=20 Ammonia will quickly corrode copper, aluminum, zinc, and all alloys of = these metals, therefore, these metals cannot be used where ammonia is = present. From common materials only steel, cast iron, and stainless = steel can be used in ammonia absorption refrigeration system. Most = plastics are also resistant to chemical attack by ammonia, hence = plastics are suitable for valve seats, pump parts, and other minor parts = of the system.=20 =20 =20 Table of Contents=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Do not hesitate to send us any inquiries you may have!! Phone: ( 360 )-758-2236 E-Mail Fax: ( 360 )-758-7519 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C0E045.3D77CAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ammonia Absorption Refrigeration
 
Ammonia Absorption Refrigeration=20

=20

Simple refrigeration technology designed to = operate on low=20 grade heat=20

General=20 Description=20

Ammonia Absorption Refrigeration is very = useful for=20 production of refrigeration effect with the use of heat energy. Luck has = it that=20 this system will operate very well with 250 degrees F ( 121 degrees C )=20 temperature or even lower. Such temperatures are readily available from = various=20 sources, such as exhaust steam from back pressure turbine or heat = generated from=20 diesel exhaust gases, simple solar concentrators, geothermal, = etc.=20
Absorption refrigeration was invented in = 1850 by=20 French engineer Ferdinand P.E. Carre, and it got nearly completely = replaced by=20 compression refrigeration in the last 100 years because of simpler = compression=20 refrigeration equipment and less hassle with it.
Ammonia Absorption Refrigeration, although very simple = in=20 principle, is far more complex resulting in more expensive set up. = Nevertheless,=20 if there is availability of free waste heat, this additional expense is = very=20 quickly recovered and absorption refrigeration will gain the economic = advantage=20 over compression refrigeration where the energy cost to drive compressor = will=20 always be more expensive. In areas of the world where electric power is=20 expensive, the ammonia absorption refrigeration  is economically = unbeatable=20 if driven by waste heat. Refrigeration produced by ammonia absorption = system can=20 be used in cold storage, food processing, ice production, air = conditioning, and=20 many other uses.=20

Principle of = Operation=20

Ammonia Absorption Refrigeration has "High = Side" (high=20 pressure side) and "Low Side"
(low=20 pressure side) just like an ordinary compression refrigeration. Nearly = pure=20 ammonia is generated in High Side by heat desorption from aqua ammonia, = this=20 nearly pure ammonia vapor is condensed in air cooled or water cooled = condenser.=20 Liquid ammonia is then let down into low pressure evaporator, Low Side, = via=20 expansion valve or float controlled valve. Liquid ammonia boils in low = pressure,=20 absorbing heat and turning back into vapor. Ammonia vapor is then = reabsorbed in=20 weak aqua ammonia solution, thus completing the refrigeration = cycle.=20

The cycle starts with centrifugal or piston = pump (the=20 only moving part of the system) pumping strong aqua ammonia, called = strong=20 liquor (about 38% ammonia concentration), from absorber into ammonia = generator.=20 The mechanically driven pump also produces the necessary pressure = difference=20 between high side and low side, in other words, the pump takes strong = liquor at=20 about 30 psi (2 atm) and pressurizes it to 150 psi (10.2 atm). Multi = stage=20 centrifugal pump is needed to overcome this 120 psi pressure difference. = The=20 pumping energy required is only a few % of the entire refrigeration = energy=20 requirement. Pumped strong liquor passes into generator via heat = exchanger where=20 strong liquor is preheated before being discharged into ammonia = generator. =20 The generator is heated with saturated steam or other heat source via = heating=20 coils or tube bundles. Ammonia is driven out of solution and rises = through=20 distilling column into condenser. Weak aqua ammonia solution, weak = liquor (=20 about 24% ammonia concentration), return backs  into absorber = through heat=20 exchanger to preheat strong liquor.
The=20 heat introduced into absorption system in generator (from steam heat) = and=20 evaporator (from actual refrigeration operation) has to be rejected to = outside.=20 One heat ejection occurs in ammonia condenser and other heat ejection = occurs in=20 ammonia absorber. Reabsorpion of ammonia into weak liquor generates heat = and=20 unfortunately this heat has to be rejected so the absorption process can = function. Aqua ammonia consist of water and ammonia. Water will easily = absorb=20 ammonia and stay in solution under normal temperature, hence absorber = has to be=20 cooled with cooling water or air.
Evaporated ammonia in generator is passed through = distilling=20 column where the ammonia is concentrated into nearly pure ammonia vapor = before=20 going into condenser.
Once = ammonia is=20 turned into liquid it is let down into evaporator, low pressure side, = where=20 ammonia is again turned into vapor, by evaporation, while picking up = heat from=20 confined refrigerated space. Ammonia vapor is then absorbed in absorber = to=20 complete the cycle.=20

Construction = Materials=20

Ammonia will quickly corrode copper, = aluminum, zinc,=20 and all alloys of these metals, therefore, these metals cannot be used = where=20 ammonia is present. From common materials only steel, cast iron, and = stainless=20 steel can be used in ammonia absorption refrigeration system. Most = plastics are=20 also resistant to chemical attack by ammonia, hence plastics are = suitable for=20 valve seats, pump parts, and other minor parts of the system. =
 
 =20

Table of=20 Contents

Do not hesitate to send us any inquiries you may=20 have!!

Phone:  ( 360=20 )-758-2236          = E-Mail   = ;      =20 Fax:  ( 360 )-758-7519


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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"pJ-rC2.0.j55.-Gf1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42667 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed In your reality that may be. I have been following this supression perhaps a lot longer, and have been close to a lot of inventors who have related BH and Swat Team Raids. I keep telling them to have a camera ready but they say the film gets confiscated. One harassed inventor moved to another country.But the greastest form of supression is Patent denial. The US Patent Office is great at this technique. Another form is State and Federsl Tax Harassment Stay Tuned Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com ; Lynn Kurtz Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, May 18, 2001 9:30 AM Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >Bruce Meland wrote: > >>Lynn; I have been following this free energy supression operation by our >>govt for years. Believe it or not It is a reality. > >Yes, it is, but it has nothing to do with helicopters or men in black. I >have not only been following it, I have observed it first hand. Here are >some examples: > >* A senior scientist reports excess heat CF experiments with 100% >reproducibility. He is ordered to stop the research and assigned a menial >job in the stockroom. > >* Yesterday, the president revealed an energy plan which hands over $2 >billion in "incentives" to nuclear energy, which it guts research and >support for wind and solar energy. > >* Coal and gas industry lobbyists feed bogus cost estimates to Congressmen, >and publish the numbers in the Congressional Record and in the mass media, >trying to convince the public that wind power is ten times more expensive >than it really is, that it massacres birds, and that it is a major problem >on days when the wind does not blow much. > >This is how real suppression works. The kind you are imagining only happens >in forth-rate thriller novels. Real world tactics are quite effective, >probably more effective than helicopters would be, since they would only >draw attention to the inventor, and a real inventor would never be stopped >by a raid. > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 11:16:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA23440; Sat, 19 May 2001 11:13:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 11:13:20 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 14:12:35 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing In-Reply-To: <000801c0e06f$b0df74c0$5b181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Wd45I3.0.5k5._Uh1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42668 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bruce Meland wrote: >Jed In your reality that may be. I have been following this supression >perhaps a lot longer, and have been close to a lot of inventors who have >related BH and Swat Team Raids. I don't know BH stands for, but I know BS when I see it, and your story is a bunch of BS. Either you are lying or you have vivid hallucinatory imagination. As Lynn Kurtz suggests, you are tiresome and you should tell us who you are talking about or shut up. Surely this person is no longer in any danger -- perhaps we can assist him. I have dealing with crackpot inventors on and off for years, and I assure you, not a single one of them is any danger of a raid by the government, by a competitor, or by anyone else, because none of their gadgets works. If one of them did work, and the inventor had a milligram of common sense, he would apply for a patent and start selling the gadgets, just as any real inventor does. After a few hundred gadgets are sold to the public, word would circulate and all the raids in the world could not stop it. > I keep telling them to have a camera ready >but they say the film gets confiscated. How convenient! >One harassed inventor moved to >another country. That part I believe. I know a genuine scientist who did that. >But the greastest form of supression is Patent denial. The Patent Office (P.O.) has to deny these patents, by law. Don't you realize that? These things are perpetual motion machines, and Congress told the P.O. a long time ago it is not even allowed to examine these claims. There is a simple loophole in the law: if you bring a working model, and show them an actual demonstration, they will give you a patent. Your mysterious friends should do that. In any case, you are overlooking the fact that many people run successful businesses without a patent, or with only a patent pending. Bill Gates, for example, has no patents. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 12:10:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02442; Sat, 19 May 2001 12:08:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:08:31 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519150746.00a8c9d0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 15:08:28 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com, editor@infinite-energy.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Bush plan fusion section Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"xsrYV3.0.4c.lIi1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42669 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is all of the text in the Bush Admin. energy plan pertaining to fusion: Fusion Fusion---the energy source of the sun---has the long-range potential to serve as an abundant and clean source of energy. The basic fuels, deuterium (a heavy form of hydrogen) and lithium, are abundantly available to all nations for thousands of years. There are no emissions from fusion, and the radioactive wastes from fusion are short-lived, only requiring burial and oversight for about 100 years. In addition, there Is no risk of a melt-down accident because only a small amount of fuel is present in the system at any time. Finally, there is little risk of nuclear proliferation because special nuclear materials, such as uranium and plutonium, are not required for fusion energy. Fusion systems could power an energy supply chain based on hydrogen and fuel cells, as well as provide electricity directly. Although still In its early stages of development, fusion research has made some advances. In the early 1 970s, fusion research achieved the milestone of producing 1/10 of one watt of fusion power, for 1/100 of a second. Today the energy produced from fusion is 10 billion times greater, and has been demonstrated in the laboratory at powers over 10 million watts in the range of a second. Internationally, an effort is underway in Europe, Japan, and Russia to develop plans for constructing a large-scale fusion science and engineering test facility. This test facility may someday be capable of steady operation with fusion power in the range of hundreds of megawatts. Both hydrogen and fusion must maki significant progress before they can becothe viable sources of energy. However, the technological advances experienced over the last decade and the advances yet to come will hopefully transform the energy sources of the distant future. Recommendation: * The NEPD Group recommends that the President direct the Secretary of Energy to develop next-generation technology---including hydrogen and fusion. Develop an education campaign that communicates the benefits of alternative forms of energy, Including hydrogen and fusion. Focus research and development efforts on integrating current programs regarding hydrogen, fuel cells, and distributed energy. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 13:34:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA18335; Sat, 19 May 2001 13:33:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 13:33:24 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 10:31:45 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"m_eEu3.0.JU4.JYj1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42670 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: (resending - mail problems?) Regarding the "mysterious force" slowing down distant spacecraft, could gravitational field divergence be playing some role? I realize that this all arises out of doppler shift, so that might be the problem right there. Ross T. thinks it's aether flow. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 14:45:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32144; Sat, 19 May 2001 14:44:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 14:44:42 -0700 Message-ID: <009f01c0e0a4$4651d3c0$668f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 15:42:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"4BJRa2.0.As7.9bk1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42671 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 3:31 PM Subject: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Rick wrote: > > Regarding the "mysterious force" slowing down distant spacecraft, > could gravitational field divergence be playing some role? I realize > that this all arises out of doppler shift, so that might be the > problem right there. Ross T. thinks it's aether flow. Is Ross T. sniffing aether again? :-) Most likely a pull from the Solar System-Kuiper Belt (10-100 AU) mass. It's about 78 AU out now. Should speed up as it gets closer to the ~ 50,000 AU Oort Cloud. Regards, Frederick > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 15:18:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07542; Sat, 19 May 2001 15:16:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 15:16:45 -0700 Message-ID: <002601c0e0b1$5c5e6fe0$8dc21004@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 18:16:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"dhn332.0.ir1.C3l1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42672 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing > Bruce Meland wrote: > > >Jed In your reality that may be. I have been following this suppression > >perhaps a lot longer, and have been close to a lot of inventors who have > >related BH and Swat Team Raids. > > I don't know BH stands for, but I know BS when I see it, and your story is > a bunch of BS. Either you are lying or you have vivid hallucinatory > imagination. As Lynn Kurtz suggests, you are tiresome and you should tell > us who you are talking about or shut up. Surely this person is no longer in > any danger -- perhaps we can assist him. Same old Jed. BH stands for "black helicopters"--sheesh! And no, Jed does not "recognize BS when he sees it." Rather, he labels everything BS that he doesn't want to believe in and sometimes he happens to apply the label correctly. Now this does happen fairly often, there being no shortage of BS floating around the net, but it has little to do with Jed's powers of discernment. I don't know Bruce--perhaps he is tiresome, but he certainly need not be either lying or hallucinatory. Jed wouldn't believe in Black Helicopters if one plucked him out of his back yard and there is certainly no point in trying to convince him that now and then the government does mean things to its own citizens. > I have dealing with crackpot inventors on and off for years, and I assure > you, not a single one of them is any danger of a raid by the government, by > a competitor, or by anyone else, because none of their gadgets works. Hmmm--Jed has visited a few "crackpots" but certainly not enough to know if none of them had working gadgets. On first principles alone one would assume most of them did not have working gadgets, and it is true that most of them would not warrant a raid. Of those that actually had something worth seeing, the organization responsible for the black helicopters would no doubt first try to buy off the inventor, or stage a more subtle raid in the dead of night without flying in with the choppers. As far as I can tell, most crackpot and none-crackpot inventors do not have the money to put up the sort of security precautions that would make a black helicopter raid necessary, but then, David Koresh could have been picked up in town thus avoiding the Waco debacle, so you never know. > If one of them did work, and the inventor had a milligram of common sense, he > would apply for a patent and start selling the gadgets, just as any real > inventor does. After a few hundred gadgets are sold to the public, word > would circulate and all the raids in the world could not stop it. Juxtapose this with > The Patent Office (P.O.) has to deny these patents, by law. Don't you > realize that? These things are perpetual motion machines, and Congress told > the P.O. a long time ago it is not even allowed to examine these claims. > There is a simple loophole in the law: if you bring a working model, and > show them an actual demonstration, they will give you a patent. Your > mysterious friends should do that. OK, so you should apply for a patent even thought the P.O. by law can't give you one. Ah, but if you bring a working model, then they'll have to give you one. Yes, this course of action worked so well for Pons and Fleischmann. Unfortunately, you also have to prove your working model isn't a trick, which is not easy to do when you're confronted with types who will no doubt accuse you of either lying or being given to hallucinations. You can actually get a patent if you obfuscate your claims a bit--this is how Roy Shelton managed to get a patent on a Newman device even though he had no working model. > > I keep telling them to have a camera ready > >but they say the film gets confiscated. > > How convenient! Well, duh, Jed. If we grant the premise of a raid, then the raiders would know enough to look for cameras and confiscate film, and likely cameras, too. > >One harassed inventor moved to another country. > > That part I believe. I know a genuine scientist who did that. Who? Pons? Was he genuinely harassed or was it more a matter of simple frustration? > In any case, you are overlooking the fact that many people run successful > businesses without a patent, or with only a patent pending. Bill Gates, for > example, has no patents. Point to Jed on this one. kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 15:58:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA17450; Sat, 19 May 2001 15:57:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 15:57:45 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 08:57:10 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA17430 Resent-Message-ID: <"kG_U2.0.aG4.efl1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42673 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Rick Monteverde's message of Sat, 19 May 2001 10:31:45 -1000: >(resending - mail problems?) > >Regarding the "mysterious force" slowing down distant spacecraft, >could gravitational field divergence be playing some role? I realize >that this all arises out of doppler shift, so that might be the >problem right there. Ross T. thinks it's aether flow. Wouldn't aether flow speed them up? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 16:59:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27545; Sat, 19 May 2001 16:59:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 16:59:03 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 20:05:31 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Rick Monteverde cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"SbKDd2.0.Ck6.6Zm1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42674 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, Some people think almost EVERY property or effect is the result of some favorite "idea-thing" Presently: ZPE Scalar Aether ... don't forget neutrinos .... don't see them very well either Does anyone have any other "universal" explanations? On Sat, 19 May 2001, Rick Monteverde wrote: > (resending - mail problems?) > > Regarding the "mysterious force" slowing down distant spacecraft, > could gravitational field divergence be playing some role? I realize > that this all arises out of doppler shift, so that might be the > problem right there. Ross T. thinks it's aether flow. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 17:50:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA05360; Sat, 19 May 2001 17:48:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 17:48:29 -0700 Message-ID: <001301c0e0bd$ef081920$8eb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 18:46:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"IK0Ln3.0.fJ1.SHn1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42675 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schnurer" To: "Rick Monteverde" Cc: Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 7:05 PM Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly John Schnurer wrote: > > > Dear Folks, > > > Some people think almost EVERY property or effect is the result of > some favorite "idea-thing" > > Presently: > > ZPE > Scalar > Aether > ... don't forget neutrinos .... don't see them very well either > > Does anyone have any other "universal" explanations? Yes John. There is a reel of monofilament line made of Fullerene Polymer on the spacecraft hooked to the Earth and you know what happens when you take up the slack. :-) Regards, Frederick > > > > On Sat, 19 May 2001, Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > (resending - mail problems?) > > > > Regarding the "mysterious force" slowing down distant spacecraft, > > could gravitational field divergence be playing some role? I realize > > that this all arises out of doppler shift, so that might be the > > problem right there. Ross T. thinks it's aether flow. > > > > - Rick Monteverde > > Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 19:14:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA19948; Sat, 19 May 2001 19:13:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 19:13:25 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010519211331.00ca9100@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 21:15:32 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly In-Reply-To: <001301c0e0bd$ef081920$8eb4bfa8@computer> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"CXX-K1.0.bt4.4Xo1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42676 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:46 PM 5/19/01 -0500, you wrote: >Yes John. There is a reel of monofilament line made of Fullerene Polymer >on the >spacecraft hooked to the Earth >and you know what happens when you take up the slack. :-) So what is the mass of the spacecraft and the test strength of the cord? We could calculate when the thing will snap and get the noble. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 19:55:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA28141; Sat, 19 May 2001 19:54:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 19:54:30 -0700 From: "J & D Kooistra" To: Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 22:53:15 -0400 Message-ID: <01c0e0d8$04395d80$c0c21004@jeffery> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"d1mjV3.0.dt6.c7p1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42677 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: John Schnurer Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly > Some people think almost EVERY property or effect is the result of >some favorite "idea-thing" > > Presently: > > ZPE > Scalar > Aether > ... don't forget neutrinos .... don't see them very well either > > Does anyone have any other "universal" explanations? My guess is that it's some kind of e&m coupling to the background galactic field which will be readily explainable by someone other than the guys who are currently doing the looking. That the first idea to come to mind involves some kind of gravity modification is likely a tip off that aimless foundering (although, floundering has a more appealing image to it) is going on amongst the theorists. kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 19 23:05:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA00897; Sat, 19 May 2001 23:04:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 23:04:55 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <009f01c0e0a4$4651d3c0$668f85ce@computer> References: Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 01:03:17 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"OCGoy1.0.sD.7wr1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42678 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Rick Monteverde" >To: >Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 3:31 PM >Subject: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly > > >Rick wrote: >> >> Regarding the "mysterious force" slowing down distant spacecraft, >> could gravitational field divergence be playing some role? I realize >> that this all arises out of doppler shift, so that might be the >> problem right there. Ross T. thinks it's aether flow. Fred Sparber wrote: >Is Ross T. sniffing aether again? :-) > >Most likely a pull from the Solar System-Kuiper Belt (10-100 AU) mass. ***{Ten AU would place Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto in the Kuiper belt. However, according to *The Facts on File Dictionary of Astronomy*, pg. 244, the Kuiper belt extends from 35 to 100 AU. --MJ}*** It's about 78 >AU out now. Should speed up as it gets closer to the ~ 50,000 AU Oort Cloud. ***{Here is a description of the so called "Pioneer anomaly": "ANOMALOUS GRAVITATIONAL FORCE? A discussion of this phenomenon appears in the 4 October 1999 issue of Newsweek magazine (See also the December 1998 issue of Scientific American.) The mystery of the tiny unexplained acceleration towards the sun in the motion of the Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11 and Ulysses spacecraft remains unexplained. A team of planetary scientists and physicists led by John Anderson (Pioneer 10 Principal Investigator for Celestial Mechanics) has identified a tiny unexplained acceleration towards the sun in the motion of the Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, and Ulysses spacecraft. The anomalous acceleration - about 10 billion times smaller than the acceleration we feel from Earth's gravitational pull - was identified after detailed analyses of radio data from the spacecraft. A variety of possible causes were considered including: perturbations from the gravitational attraction of planets and smaller bodies in the solar system; radiation pressure, the tiny transfer of momentum when photons impact the spacecraft; general relativity; interactions between the solar wind and the spacecraft; possible corruption to the radio Doppler data; wobbles and other changes in Earth's rotation; outgassing or thermal radiation from the spacecraft; and the possible influence of non-ordinary or dark matter. After exhausting the list of explanations deemed most plausible, the researchers examined possible modification to the force of gravity as explained by Newton's law with the sun being the dominant gravitational force. "Clearly, more analysis, observation, and theoretical work are called for," the researchers concluded. The scientists expect the explanation when found will involve conventional physics." (See http://spaceprojects.arc.nasa.gov/Space_Projects/pioneer/PNStat.html.) Since the anomaly applies to the Ulysses space probe, which is far outside the planetary disc in a polar orbit around the sun, the Kuiper belt explanation fails. (See http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/.) --Mitchell Jones}*** >Regards, Frederick >> >> - Rick Monteverde >> Honolulu, HI >> ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 01:22:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA24193; Sun, 20 May 2001 01:22:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 01:22:05 -0700 Message-ID: <005601c0e0fd$4d46b0c0$8eb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re; Pioneer 10 spacecraft to celebrate silver anniversary (1997) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 02:19:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0E0D3.41DE8FC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"AXIRm.0.wv5.jwt1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42679 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0E0D3.41DE8FC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0E0D3.41E630E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0E0D3.41E630E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pioneer 10 spacecraft to celebrate silver anniversary Pioneer 10 spacecraft to celebrate silver anniversary=20 Twenty-five years ago, NASA launched the Pioneer 10 spacecraft from Cape = Canaveral for a 21-month mission to study the giant planet Jupiter. = Pioneer 10, the first spacecraft sent from Earth to an outer planet, = provided data that described Jupiter in some detail for the first time. The hardy spacecraft then accomplished more than two decades of = exploration, returning data that characterized the solar system while = passing the orbits of every known planet around the sun. In 1983, the = spacecraft left the planets behind, 2.8 billion miles from the sun.=20 The silver anniversary of the venerable spacecraft's launch on March 2, = 1972, will be celebrated on March 3 at NASA Headquarters and the = National Air and Space Museum (NASM), Washington, DC. The gala events = include a day-long educators' conference, co-sponsored by Ames and The = Planetary Society, and an evening program and reception at the NASM = hosted by TRW, builders of Pioneer 10. The evening event is co-sponsored = by NASA Headquarters, NASM, Ames and TRW. "The educators' conference will be linked worldwide by the Internet," = said Dr. Larry Lasher, Pioneer 10 project manager. We will hold a = virtual conference with RealAudio, WebChat and e-mail questions for = those not attending on-site. Visit us at = http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/pioneer10/." Pioneer 10, now six billion miles from Earth, continues to provide data = for research even in its final days --- 23 years after its useful = lifespan was expected to expire. At 6.2 billion miles from the sun, = Pioneer 10 claims the title of most distant human-made object and a = number of "firsts." Pioneer 10 became the first spacecraft to reach Jupiter, the first to = use a planet's gravity to increase its velocity, the first spacecraft to = come the closest to Jupiter, and the first to exit the orbits of the = known planets in the solar system. Navigating the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter and overcoming = Jupiter's radiation environment were considered Pioneer's biggest = challenges. Scientists were concerned that the belt of dust and rocks = might pummel Pioneer 10 at thousands of miles per hour and destroy the = craft. Instead, Pioneer emerged nearly unblemished from both the = planet's radiation and the asteroid belt. Pioneer 10 paved the way for future space travel beyond the inner = planets as it flew by Jupiter in 1973. Pioneer 10 measured Jupiter's = magnetosphere, radiation belts, magnetic field, interior, atmosphere and = photographed the planet and its moons. These measurements of the jovian = magnetosphere were critical for the design of the Voyager and Galileo = spacecraft. Pioneer then used Jupiter's gravity to increase its velocity = and change course for a location outside its solar system home. Now more than twice the distance from the sun as Pluto, Pioneer 10 is = continuing to record the intensity of galactic cosmic rays in the outer = heliosphere, the region of solar wind influence, and searching for the = heliopause, where the flow of hot gas from the sun (solar wind) comes to = a rest as it bumps into the interstellar medium. Pioneer is heading in the direction of the long "tail" of the = hypothetical teardrop-shaped heliopause. Estimates of the position of = the heliopause, though quite uncertain, are about 120 AU. Celestial mechanics data, using the doppler shift of the radio signal, = continues to be analyzed, and new data gathered. Pioneer is so far from = the Earth that its 8-watt radio signal, equivalent to the power of a = night light, takes 9 hours and 10 minutes to reach Earth. Pioneer will approach 10 stars over the next million years. The closest = approach to any star system will be in about 30,000 years, when Pioneer = will fly near the red dwarf star, Ross 248. Because the emptiness of interstellar space offers a non-destructive = environment to the spacecraft, Pioneer will probably still be traveling = amongst the stars when the sun becomes a red giant and destroys the = Earth in five billion years. Even though the Earth might be gone at the = time, Pioneer carries a message about humans to share with any = intelligent life form that it might encounter on its impressive trek = across the galaxy . A gold-anodized aluminum plaque designed by Carl = Sagan is bolted to the spacecraft. The engraving on the plaque depicts a = man and a woman, a map pinpointing Earth's solar system amid sources of = radio energy called pulsars, and the symbol for hydrogen, the most = common element in the universe . The 570-pound spacecraft carries 11 instruments that have been used to = measure magnetic fields, solar wind, high energy cosmic rays, cosmic and = asteroidal dust, and Jupiter's ultraviolet and infrared radiation. = Pioneer 10 obtains power from four radioisotope thermoelectric = generators that supply 40 watts each. The spacecraft is spin-stabilized = and has a 9-foot dish antenna. The Pioneer mission is managed by Ames and was built by TRW, Inc., = Redondo Beach, CA. Although NASA's funds for mission operations of = Pioneer 10 cease on March 31, its faint signal will continue to provide = a radio beacon that can be used by the Deep Space Network and other = facilities to confirm station tracking and receiver performance. It also = can be used to benefit Lunar Prospector, the Discovery mission that will = inherit the Pioneer operations center. The real-time tracks of Pioneer = 10 can be used to train spacecraft controllers in tracking station = protocol and data archiving procedures, Lasher said By Jessica A. Gorman & Diane Farrar The Astrogram Feb. 21, 1997 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Please click here to see images and recent press release.=20 ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0E0D3.41E630E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pioneer 10 spacecraft to celebrate silver = anniversary
 

Pioneer 10 spacecraft to celebrate silver = anniversary=20

Twenty-five years ago, NASA launched the = Pioneer 10=20 spacecraft from Cape Canaveral for a 21-month mission to study the giant = planet=20 Jupiter. Pioneer 10, the first spacecraft sent from Earth to an outer = planet,=20 provided data that described Jupiter in some detail for the first = time.

The hardy spacecraft then accomplished more than two decades of = exploration,=20 returning data that characterized the solar system while passing the = orbits of=20 every known planet around the sun. In 1983, the spacecraft left the = planets=20 behind, 2.8 billion miles from the sun.

The silver anniversary of the venerable spacecraft's launch on March = 2, 1972,=20 will be celebrated on March 3 at NASA Headquarters and the National Air = and=20 Space Museum (NASM), Washington, DC. The gala events include a day-long=20 educators' conference, co-sponsored by Ames and The Planetary Society, = and an=20 evening program and reception at the NASM hosted by TRW, builders of = Pioneer 10.=20 The evening event is co-sponsored by NASA Headquarters, NASM, Ames and = TRW.

"The educators' conference will be linked worldwide by the Internet," = said=20 Dr. Larry Lasher, Pioneer 10 project manager. We will hold a virtual = conference=20 with RealAudio, WebChat and e-mail questions for those not attending = on-site.=20 Visit us at http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/p= ioneer10/."

Pioneer 10, now six billion miles from Earth, continues to provide = data for=20 research even in its final days --- 23 years after its useful lifespan = was=20 expected to expire. At 6.2 billion miles from the sun, Pioneer 10 claims = the=20 title of most distant human-made object and a number of "firsts."

Pioneer 10 became the first spacecraft to reach Jupiter, the first to = use a=20 planet's gravity to increase its velocity, the first spacecraft to come = the=20 closest to Jupiter, and the first to exit the orbits of the known = planets in the=20 solar system.

Navigating the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter and overcoming=20 Jupiter's radiation environment were considered Pioneer's biggest = challenges.=20 Scientists were concerned that the belt of dust and rocks might pummel = Pioneer=20 10 at thousands of miles per hour and destroy the craft. Instead, = Pioneer=20 emerged nearly unblemished from both the planet's radiation and the = asteroid=20 belt.

Pioneer 10 paved the way for future space travel beyond the inner = planets as=20 it flew by Jupiter in 1973. Pioneer 10 measured Jupiter's magnetosphere, = radiation belts, magnetic field, interior, atmosphere and photographed = the=20 planet and its moons. These measurements of the jovian magnetosphere = were=20 critical for the design of the Voyager and Galileo spacecraft. Pioneer = then used=20 Jupiter's gravity to increase its velocity and change course for a = location=20 outside its solar system home.

Now more than twice the distance from the sun as Pluto, Pioneer 10 is = continuing to record the intensity of galactic cosmic rays in the outer=20 heliosphere, the region of solar wind influence, and searching for the=20 heliopause, where the flow of hot gas from the sun (solar wind) comes to = a rest=20 as it bumps into the interstellar medium.

Pioneer is heading in the direction of the long "tail" of the = hypothetical=20 teardrop-shaped heliopause. Estimates of the position of the heliopause, = though=20 quite uncertain, are about 120 AU.

Celestial mechanics data, using the doppler shift of the radio = signal,=20 continues to be analyzed, and new data gathered. Pioneer is so far from = the=20 Earth that its 8-watt radio signal, equivalent to the power of a night = light,=20 takes 9 hours and 10 minutes to reach Earth.

Pioneer will approach 10 stars over the next million years. The = closest=20 approach to any star system will be in about 30,000 years, when Pioneer = will fly=20 near the red dwarf star, Ross 248.

Because the emptiness of interstellar space offers a non-destructive=20 environment to the spacecraft, Pioneer will probably still be traveling = amongst=20 the stars when the sun becomes a red giant and destroys the Earth in = five=20 billion years. Even though the Earth might be gone at the time, Pioneer = carries=20 a message about humans to share with any intelligent life form that it = might=20 encounter on its impressive trek across the galaxy . A gold-anodized = aluminum=20 plaque designed by Carl Sagan is bolted to the spacecraft. The engraving = on the=20 plaque depicts a man and a woman, a map pinpointing Earth's solar system = amid=20 sources of radio energy called pulsars, and the symbol for hydrogen, the = most=20 common element in the universe .

The 570-pound spacecraft carries 11 instruments that have been used = to=20 measure magnetic fields, solar wind, high energy cosmic rays, cosmic and = asteroidal dust, and Jupiter's ultraviolet and infrared radiation. = Pioneer 10=20 obtains power from four radioisotope thermoelectric generators that = supply 40=20 watts each. The spacecraft is spin-stabilized and has a 9-foot dish = antenna.

The Pioneer mission is managed by Ames and was built by TRW, Inc., = Redondo=20 Beach, CA. Although NASA's funds for mission operations of Pioneer 10 = cease on=20 March 31, its faint signal will continue to provide a radio beacon that = can be=20 used by the Deep Space Network and other facilities to confirm station = tracking=20 and receiver performance. It also can be used to benefit Lunar = Prospector, the=20 Discovery mission that will inherit the Pioneer operations center. The = real-time=20 tracks of Pioneer 10 can be used to train spacecraft controllers in = tracking=20 station protocol and data archiving procedures, Lasher said

By Jessica A. Gorman & Diane Farrar

The Astrogram

Feb. 21, 1997

Please= =20 click here to see images and recent press release. =

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Pioneer anomaly Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 02:35:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"qQay43.0.Sa6.e9u1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42680 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote > > > >Rick wrote: > >> > >> Regarding the "mysterious force" slowing down distant spacecraft, > >> could gravitational field divergence be playing some role? I realize > >> that this all arises out of doppler shift, so that might be the > >> problem right there. Ross T. thinks it's aether flow. > > Fred Sparber wrote: > > > >Most likely a pull from the Solar System-Kuiper Belt (10-100 AU) mass. > > ***{Ten AU would place Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto in the Kuiper > belt. However, according to *The Facts on File Dictionary of Astronomy*, > pg. 244, the Kuiper belt extends from 35 to 100 AU. --MJ}*** > > It's about 78 > >AU out now. Should speed up as it gets closer to the ~ 50,000 AU Oort Cloud. > > ***{Here is a description of the so called "Pioneer anomaly": > > "ANOMALOUS GRAVITATIONAL FORCE? A discussion of this phenomenon appears in > the 4 October 1999 issue of Newsweek magazine (See also the December 1998 > issue of Scientific American.) The mystery of the tiny unexplained > acceleration towards the sun in the motion of the Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11 > and Ulysses spacecraft remains unexplained. A team of planetary scientists > and physicists led by John Anderson (Pioneer 10 Principal Investigator for > Celestial Mechanics) has identified a tiny unexplained acceleration towards > the sun in the motion of the Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, and Ulysses > spacecraft. The anomalous acceleration - about 10 billion times smaller > than the acceleration we feel from Earth's gravitational pull - was > identified after detailed analyses of radio data from the spacecraft. A > variety of possible causes were considered including: perturbations from > the gravitational attraction of planets and smaller bodies in the solar > system; radiation pressure, the tiny transfer of momentum when photons > impact the spacecraft; general relativity; interactions between the solar > wind and the spacecraft; possible corruption to the radio Doppler data; > wobbles and other changes in Earth's rotation; outgassing or thermal > radiation from the spacecraft; and the possible influence of non-ordinary > or dark matter. After exhausting the list of explanations deemed most > plausible, the researchers examined possible modification to the force of > gravity as explained by Newton's law with the sun being the dominant > gravitational force. "Clearly, more analysis, observation, and theoretical > work are called for," the researchers concluded. The scientists expect the > explanation when found will involve conventional physics." (See > http://spaceprojects.arc.nasa.gov/Space_Projects/pioneer/PNStat.html.) > > Since the anomaly applies to the Ulysses space probe, which is far outside > the planetary disc in a polar orbit around the sun, the Kuiper belt > explanation fails. (See http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/.) > > --Mitchell Jones}*** Since the Pioneer 10 is now ~7.1 x 10^9 miles (~ 1.14 x 10^13 meters) from the Sun the Solar system-Kuiper Belt pull is 6.67E-11*2.2E30 kg*260 kg/(1.14E13)^2 equal 1.12E-6 (newtons). Plenty of force F to give it a "minute acceleration" a = 1.12E-6/260 = 5.1E-9 meters/sec^2 toward the Sun. No? Regards, Frederick > > >Regards, Frederick > >> > >> - Rick Monteverde > >> Honolulu, HI > >> > > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 05:03:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA21407; Sun, 20 May 2001 05:02:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 05:02:28 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c0e123$ca86a2e0$4b3dee3f@default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: References: <006001c0e0ff$88749d40$8eb4bfa8@computer> Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 07:55:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"kqqGp2.0.PE5.K9x1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42681 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One of the contrarian views of gravity, and ultimately something of an alternative to GR, is the theory of space flow. Several of the scientists in my circle of correspondents, including Dr. McMaster, have considered that if space contains a physical character (whether one tags it aether or not), then gravity is a force arising from the accelerating flow of physical space into or out of mass. One of our consultants, a very capable mathematician from Colorado, Dr. Tom Martin, has written several papers on the topic. One of Tom's predictions is that between any two masses, there would exist a "saddle" point or boundary where physical space flow into the masses would null or be in an equilibrium state with each other. At this saddle point, anomalies or deviations are predicted in EM propagation, or clock speeds. Perhaps the Pioneer craft have crossed a saddle point between the sun and some other mass or aggregate of masses. I will consult with Tom on this to see if it fits any of his predictions specifically. NR From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 06:17:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA31598; Sun, 20 May 2001 06:17:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 06:17:13 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:20:37 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <4.2.0.58.20010511203733.00c22700@postoffice.swbell.net> In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010511203733.00c22700@postoffice.swbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052009203700.00882@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA31575 Resent-Message-ID: <"ki_K_3.0.Zj7.OFy1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42682 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 11 May 2001 19:28, Charles Ford wrote: > To prevent misunderstanding. > > > >> Amplification does not relate to matter, only energy. It takes MORE energy > > >> to amplify energy , not less, and you may create a resonance tuned to the > > >> atom , but then you create a Laser, because eventually the Amplified > > energy > > >> will have to go somewhere. > > Resonance does not create energy it accumulates energy. The mechanism of > discharge is always non resonant and wasteful. > > > >> A capacitor stores electrical energy, but then releases it, and the > > rate and > > >> amount of release determines the capacitance. > > The capacitor only stores the energy. Release is external. The amount of > energy it can store is dependant on the voltage at which you store the > energy. The capacity "Capacitance" is dependant on how much energy is > stored at a given voltage. The amount of energy that can be released is > the same as the amount that is stored. > > > >> A Resistor prevents energy from traveling along a path, > > A resister allows this travel while converting some of the energy to heat. > > > >> And an amplifier takes a small input and creates a larger output. It is > > >> nothing more than a flow controller, and it by itself cannot do anything > > >> like you describe. > > The resister is a flow control. An amplifier is an active device that uses > external energy to increase the energy of a given input Weather it be > mechanical as with an automotive power steering system or electrical as > with a radio receiver. > > > >>>> A Coil takes a very low voltage with a high current and turns it > > into a very > > >> high voltage with a low current. > > That would be a transformer. A coil uses magnetic fields to provide an > exaggeration of an inertia like effect of electrical current flow called > inductance. It may also be used to radiate or collect magnetic signal energy. > > > >> Conservation of energy still takes place. You cannot get something for > > >> nothing. In fact the law of the universe is you get nothing or less than > > >> something for something. > > Eh hm... You cannot get less.. All remains the same. If you waist energy > in an electrical circuit you get heat and electromagnetic radiation. These > will total up to the loss. > > > >> We can store energy, we can convert it, but if you have a low amount of > > >> energy, to convert it to a higher amount requires NO loss in manufacture, > > >> and as of the creation of the universe, its never been done. > > If you start with a low amount of energy you might change the form or > parameters but you end up with a low amount of energy. To "manufacture" > energy requires some sort of fuel > > > >> Some one invented a diode once. It has the action of only allowing > > energy to > > >> flow in one direction. However, it needs energy to activate, and therefore > > >> reduces the energy you flow past it. Some one connected 2 diodes > > together in > > >> a certain fashion, and therefore created a transistor, worsened the > > problem. > > >> It adds noise to the formula. > > A transistor is not two diodes. It is in fact a single diode. The trans > -resistive property of a diode is exploited by connecting external > conductors to two locations on one end of the same diode. This allows us > to control a large amount of current with a small amount of current. The > Mecca to technology that we live in today is based on this property of a diode. > > > >> Matter can be moved and molded and changed all with a cost of energy to do > > >> so. Matter can store energy in its electrical field, and its inertia, > > and it > > >> can release energy when you break it down, but you cannot create > > matter from > > >> energy. The entire amount of matter created from the untold hours of > > >> particle collisions around the world in all the colliding equipment ever > > >> made could fit between this --> <-- and weigh about a gram. > > >> > > >> Considering all the Energy used to make that much matter, that should more > > >> than prove to you that there is no free lunch. > > >> > > >> Matthew Rogers > > >> Prove it.. > > >> Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com A transistor is not two diodes! A diode, as in semiconductor diode, is a two layer sandwich of opposing type semiconductor material; usually germanium or silicon crystals with differing impurities, or 'dopings'. A transistor is composed of three layers of these same materials, with the two outer layers of one type and the inner layer of the opposing type. Leads called the emitter, base, and collector are respectively fastened to the bottom, middle, and top layers of the transistor. The layering idea lends itsellf naturally to circuit integration methods, giving rise to our "IC's" that are in so many of our items today. Transistors are voltage controlled devices that control current flows with small variations of voltage near the 'diode drop' voltage applied to the 'base', similar in ways to the 'control grid' of the old vacuum triode tube originally designed by Lee De Forest back in the early 20th century. C'mon people, this is a scientific site! Let us put quality in our letters by word and example. The whole world is watching us, and waiting and hoping for new discoveries. Inklings of those will probably be found in places like this list long before they become somebody's copyrighted and for sale front page news story. Often covered up real news can be found here too, like some cold fusion research. Standing Bear rockcast@net-link.net From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 06:23:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA00639; Sun, 20 May 2001 06:23:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 06:23:12 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:26:37 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" References: <006001c0e0ff$88749d40$8eb4bfa8@computer> In-Reply-To: <006001c0e0ff$88749d40$8eb4bfa8@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052009263701.00882@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA00617 Resent-Message-ID: <"_HzF83.0.u9.0Ly1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42683 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 20 May 2001 00:35, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Mitchell Jones wrote > > > > > >Rick wrote: > > >> > > >> Regarding the "mysterious force" slowing down distant spacecraft, > > >> could gravitational field divergence be playing some role? I realize > > >> that this all arises out of doppler shift, so that might be the > > >> problem right there. Ross T. thinks it's aether flow. > > > > Fred Sparber wrote: > > > > > >Most likely a pull from the Solar System-Kuiper Belt (10-100 AU) mass. > > > > ***{Ten AU would place Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto in the Kuiper > > belt. However, according to *The Facts on File Dictionary of Astronomy*, > > pg. 244, the Kuiper belt extends from 35 to 100 AU. --MJ}*** > > > > It's about 78 > > >AU out now. Should speed up as it gets closer to the ~ 50,000 AU Oort Cloud. > > > > ***{Here is a description of the so called "Pioneer anomaly": > > > > "ANOMALOUS GRAVITATIONAL FORCE? A discussion of this phenomenon appears in > > the 4 October 1999 issue of Newsweek magazine (See also the December 1998 > > issue of Scientific American.) The mystery of the tiny unexplained > > acceleration towards the sun in the motion of the Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11 > > and Ulysses spacecraft remains unexplained. A team of planetary scientists > > and physicists led by John Anderson (Pioneer 10 Principal Investigator for > > Celestial Mechanics) has identified a tiny unexplained acceleration towards > > the sun in the motion of the Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, and Ulysses > > spacecraft. The anomalous acceleration - about 10 billion times smaller > > than the acceleration we feel from Earth's gravitational pull - was > > identified after detailed analyses of radio data from the spacecraft. A > > variety of possible causes were considered including: perturbations from > > the gravitational attraction of planets and smaller bodies in the solar > > system; radiation pressure, the tiny transfer of momentum when photons > > impact the spacecraft; general relativity; interactions between the solar > > wind and the spacecraft; possible corruption to the radio Doppler data; > > wobbles and other changes in Earth's rotation; outgassing or thermal > > radiation from the spacecraft; and the possible influence of non-ordinary > > or dark matter. After exhausting the list of explanations deemed most > > plausible, the researchers examined possible modification to the force of > > gravity as explained by Newton's law with the sun being the dominant > > gravitational force. "Clearly, more analysis, observation, and theoretical > > work are called for," the researchers concluded. The scientists expect the > > explanation when found will involve conventional physics." (See > > http://spaceprojects.arc.nasa.gov/Space_Projects/pioneer/PNStat.html.) > > > > Since the anomaly applies to the Ulysses space probe, which is far outside > > the planetary disc in a polar orbit around the sun, the Kuiper belt > > explanation fails. (See http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/.) That depends on whether the Kuiper Belt is spherical or planar. Even if planar, would the Kuiper have an axial effect?? Standing Bear > > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > Since the Pioneer 10 is now ~7.1 x 10^9 miles (~ 1.14 x 10^13 meters) from the Sun > the Solar system-Kuiper Belt pull is 6.67E-11*2.2E30 kg*260 kg/(1.14E13)^2 > equal 1.12E-6 (newtons). > > Plenty of force F to give it a "minute acceleration" a = 1.12E-6/260 = 5.1E-9 > meters/sec^2 toward the Sun. > > No? > > Regards, Frederick > > > > >Regards, Frederick > > >> > > >> - Rick Monteverde > > >> Honolulu, HI > > >> > > > > ________________ > > Quote of the month: > > > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 06:26:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA01677; Sun, 20 May 2001 06:25:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 06:25:51 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:29:16 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <4.2.0.58.20010519211331.00ca9100@postoffice.swbell.net> In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010519211331.00ca9100@postoffice.swbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052009291602.00882@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA01649 Resent-Message-ID: <"G7F842.0.2Q.UNy1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42684 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Saturday 19 May 2001 19:15, Charles Ford wrote: > At 06:46 PM 5/19/01 -0500, you wrote: > > >Yes John. There is a reel of monofilament line made of Fullerene Polymer > >on the > >spacecraft hooked to the Earth > >and you know what happens when you take up the slack. :-) > > So what is the mass of the spacecraft and the test strength of the cord? > We could calculate when the thing will snap and get the noble. > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Aw shucks! I wanna see the dude holding the fishing rod that reels the thing in..................Jolly Green Giant maybe?! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 08:13:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA21282; Sun, 20 May 2001 08:12:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 08:12:10 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006001c0e0ff$88749d40$8eb4bfa8@computer> References: Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:18:20 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"mnnWG1.0.RC5.9xz1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42685 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote >> > >> >Rick wrote: >> >> >> >> Regarding the "mysterious force" slowing down distant spacecraft, >> >> could gravitational field divergence be playing some role? I realize >> >> that this all arises out of doppler shift, so that might be the >> >> problem right there. Ross T. thinks it's aether flow. >> >> Fred Sparber wrote: >> > >> >Most likely a pull from the Solar System-Kuiper Belt (10-100 AU) mass. >> >> ***{Ten AU would place Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto in the Kuiper >> belt. However, according to *The Facts on File Dictionary of Astronomy*, >> pg. 244, the Kuiper belt extends from 35 to 100 AU. --MJ}*** >> >> It's about 78 >> >AU out now. Should speed up as it gets closer to the ~ 50,000 AU Oort >>Cloud. >> >> ***{Here is a description of the so called "Pioneer anomaly": >> >> "ANOMALOUS GRAVITATIONAL FORCE? A discussion of this phenomenon appears in >> the 4 October 1999 issue of Newsweek magazine (See also the December 1998 >> issue of Scientific American.) The mystery of the tiny unexplained >> acceleration towards the sun in the motion of the Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11 >> and Ulysses spacecraft remains unexplained. A team of planetary scientists >> and physicists led by John Anderson (Pioneer 10 Principal Investigator for >> Celestial Mechanics) has identified a tiny unexplained acceleration towards >> the sun in the motion of the Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, and Ulysses >> spacecraft. The anomalous acceleration - about 10 billion times smaller >> than the acceleration we feel from Earth's gravitational pull - was >> identified after detailed analyses of radio data from the spacecraft. A >> variety of possible causes were considered including: perturbations from >> the gravitational attraction of planets and smaller bodies in the solar >> system; radiation pressure, the tiny transfer of momentum when photons >> impact the spacecraft; general relativity; interactions between the solar >> wind and the spacecraft; possible corruption to the radio Doppler data; >> wobbles and other changes in Earth's rotation; outgassing or thermal >> radiation from the spacecraft; and the possible influence of non-ordinary >> or dark matter. After exhausting the list of explanations deemed most >> plausible, the researchers examined possible modification to the force of >> gravity as explained by Newton's law with the sun being the dominant >> gravitational force. "Clearly, more analysis, observation, and theoretical >> work are called for," the researchers concluded. The scientists expect the >> explanation when found will involve conventional physics." (See >> http://spaceprojects.arc.nasa.gov/Space_Projects/pioneer/PNStat.html.) >> >> Since the anomaly applies to the Ulysses space probe, which is far outside >> the planetary disc in a polar orbit around the sun, the Kuiper belt >> explanation fails. (See http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/.) >> >> --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Since the Pioneer 10 is now ~7.1 x 10^9 miles (~ 1.14 x 10^13 meters) from >the Sun >the Solar system-Kuiper Belt pull is 6.67E-11*2.2E30 kg*260 kg/(1.14E13)^2 >equal 1.12E-6 (newtons). > >Plenty of force F to give it a "minute acceleration" a = 1.12E-6/260 = 5.1E-9 >meters/sec^2 toward the Sun. > >No? ***{For a space probe that, like Pioneer, is moving outward through the planetary disc, with the center of mass of the Kuiper belt behind it, there would be a tug backwards, tending to slow it down. However, my understanding is that the Ulysses probe is not in the plane of the planetary disc. Instead, it was launched in a trajectory perpendicular to that disc, so that it would go into a polar orbit around the sun. Result: it has never been anywhere near the Kuiper belt. Thus the only tug it could have received to slow it down would have been from the mass of the planetary disc itself, and that tug would have begun to speed it up as soon as it crossed the polar axis of the sun and began heading back toward the planetary disc again. Now, granted, I don't know whether Ulysses has crossed the polar axis of the sun yet, and so I don't know whether it has ceased to be slowed by the anomaly and has begun to be speed up by it. Thus I can't say for sure that an explanation similar to your idea is not operating. All I am saying is that if Ulysses is being slowed by the tug of a mass, it isn't coming primarily from the Kuiper belt, because it never passed through the Kuiper belt, or anywhere near it, as far as I can tell. --MJ}*** > >Regards, Frederick ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 08:32:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25760; Sun, 20 May 2001 08:31:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 08:31:33 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01052009263701.00882@linux> References: <006001c0e0ff$88749d40$8eb4bfa8@computer> <006001c0e0ff$88749d40$8eb4bfa8@computer> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 10:28:49 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"2KSDb.0.QI6.LD-1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42686 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] Mitchell Jones wrote: >> > Since the anomaly applies to the Ulysses space probe, which is far outside >> > the planetary disc in a polar orbit around the sun, the Kuiper belt >> > explanation fails. (See http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/.) "Standing Bear" wrote: >That depends on whether the Kuiper Belt is spherical or planar. ***{My recollection is that the existence of the Kuiper belt was inferred from the orbits of short period comets, which are in the plane of the planetary disc, and seem to have aphelia between 35 and 100 AU. (The Oort cloud, by way of contrast, was inferred from the orbits of long period comets, the planes of which are randomly distributed, and which have aphelia between 30,000 and 100,000 AU.) Thus the Kuiper belt is a disc of dust, gases, comets, and planetesimals which begins roughly at the orbit of Pluto. --MJ}*** Even if >planar, would the Kuiper have an axial effect?? ***{Yes, but such an effect would be merely a component, and probably a small component, of the effect of the planetary disc itself. Since the Ulysses probe is in a polar orbit around the sun, when it is moving toward the polar axis of the sun (i.e., away from the planetary disc), the tug of the mass in the planetary disc will have a slowing effect, and when it is moving away from that axis (i.e., toward the planetary disc), it will speed up. --MJ}*** > Standing Bear [snip] ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 09:16:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03901; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:15:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:15:24 -0700 Message-ID: <010001c0e13f$6e09d020$8eb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" , References: Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 10:13:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"3yYu41.0.qy.Ss-1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42687 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitchell Jones" To: Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 9:18 AM Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >> Since the anomaly applies to the Ulysses space probe, which is far outside > >> the planetary disc in a polar orbit around the sun, the Kuiper belt > >> explanation fails. (See http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/.) > > > >> Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > >Since the Pioneer 10 is now ~7.1 x 10^9 miles (~ 1.14 x 10^13 meters) from > >the Sun > >the Solar system-Kuiper Belt pull is 6.67E-11*2.2E30 kg*260 kg/(1.14E13)^2 > >equal 1.12E-6 (newtons). > > > >Plenty of force F to give it a "minute acceleration" a = 1.12E-6/260 = 5.1E-9 > >meters/sec^2 toward the Sun. > > > > ***{For a space probe that, like Pioneer, is moving outward through the > planetary disc, with the center of mass of the Kuiper belt behind it, there > would be a tug backwards, tending to slow it down. However, my > understanding is that the Ulysses probe is not in the plane of the > planetary disc. Instead, it was launched in a trajectory perpendicular to > that disc, so that it would go into a polar orbit around the sun. Result: > it has never been anywhere near the Kuiper belt. Thus the only tug it could > have received to slow it down would have been from the mass of the > planetary disc itself, and that tug would have begun to speed it up as soon > as it crossed the polar axis of the sun and began heading back toward the > planetary disc again. Now, granted, I don't know whether Ulysses has > crossed the polar axis of the sun yet, and so I don't know whether it has > ceased to be slowed by the anomaly and has begun to be speed up by it. Thus > I can't say for sure that an explanation similar to your idea is not > operating. All I am saying is that if Ulysses is being slowed by the tug of > a mass, it isn't coming primarily from the Kuiper belt, because it never > passed through the Kuiper belt, or anywhere near it, as far as I can tell. > --MJ}*** > The 5.1E-9 meters/sec^2 "deceleration" due to the pull of the Sun-Solar System-Kuiper Belt, with the center of mass located at the center of the Sun, is consistent with the (~1.0E-10 "g") deceleration "anomaly" value that NASA claims for Pioneer 10. > Regards, Frederick > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 09:51:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA11055; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:50:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:50:26 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 11:47:52 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind Resent-Message-ID: <"UdulJ.0.Xi2.HN_1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42688 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would like to sum up the position I have been advocating in this thread, for the benefit of any newcomers who may find the recent posts a bit confusing. The logic I have been using runs as follows: (1) It seems *crystal clear* that, out of the infinitude of details that comprise an individual human being, some are essential to his continued presence in this world, and some are not. A person can, for example, get a haircut and remain in the world, but if he gets the top of his head chopped off down to the eyeballs, he is out of here. :-) (2) Since, out of the vast multitudes of new life forms that came into the world before we did, none were us, it seems clear that there were conditions that needed to be satisfied, in order to bring us into the world. What conditions? Logically, the conditions defined in (1), above--to wit: when the conditions that were necessary to keep us in the world first began to be satisfied, we came into the world. (3) Since, after we die, the same situation which pertained before we were born is restored--i.e., we do not exist in the physical world--it clearly seems to follow that, if the conditions that brought us into the world before are once again satisfied, we will come into the world again. (4) Since the traits that define each unique stream of consciousness obviously have to do with the unique way in which that being will respond to stimuli, which are determined by that being's understanding of the world, and since each new being which comes into the world receives a genetically encoded set of understandings, courtesy of natural selection, and since natural selection operates throughout the universe, it seems clearly to follow that eventually, somewhere in this gigantic universe, the traits defining a person's stream of consciousness at the time of his death will appear again, as part of the genetically encoded understandings of a new infant. Thus it seems crystal clear that, like it or not, after we die we will eventually live again. If there is a fly in this ointment, what is it? --Mitchell Jones ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 10:07:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA14204; Sun, 20 May 2001 10:03:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 10:03:56 -0700 Message-ID: <011b01c0e146$02d75280$8eb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" , Subject: Ulysses Spacecraft Meets A Comet Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 11:00:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0E11C.05263DA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"bUsbz2.0.sT3.yZ_1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42689 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0E11C.05263DA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0E11C.052F6560" ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0E11C.052F6560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ulysses Spacecraft Meets A Comet Ulysses Spacecraft Meets A Comet=20 =20 MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109 TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011 http://www.jpl.nasa.gov Contact: Jane Platt (818) 354-0880 =20 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE April 5, 2000 STRANGERS IN THE NIGHT: ULYSSES SPACECRAFT MEETS A COMET=20 During an unplanned rendezvous, the Ulysses spacecraft found itself = gliding though the immense tail of Comet Hyakutake, revealing that comet = tails may be much, much longer than previously believed.=20 "The odds that Ulysses' flight path would intersect the comet tail were = probably less likely than someone breaking the bank at Monte Carlo," = said Dr. Edward Smith of NASA' s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, = CA, the Ulysses project scientist and a co-investigator for its = magnetometer instrument. Before the unexpected encounter, Ulysses was = hundreds of millions of kilometers, or miles, away from Comet Hyakutake = and far beyond the visible tail.=20 "This tail extends half a billion kilometers (more than 300 million = miles). That's more than three times the distance from the Earth to the = Sun," said Dr. Nathan Schwadron, of the University of Michigan in Ann = Arbor, a member of one of two Ulysses teams that made the discovery = independently of one another. Findings from both teams appear in the = April 6 issue of the journal Nature.=20 "This makes it the longest comet tail ever recorded," said Dr. Geraint = Jones from Imperial College, London, of the Ulysses magnetometer team.=20 Comet Hyakutake, one of the brightest comets of the 20th century, made a = dazzling nighttime appearance in the spring of 1996, when it made a = close pass by the Sun. While Ulysses was cruising through space studying = the solar wind on May 1, 1996, its data suddenly went wild for a few = hours. For example, the solar wind seemed to almost disappear and was = replaced by gases not normally found in the solar wind, and the magnetic = field in the solar wind was distorted. Since Ulysses scientists were not = looking for comets, they did not realize the significance of the data = right away.=20 "The discovery was made quite by accident, a bit like finding a needle = in a haystack when you weren't even looking for a needle in the first = place," said Dr. George Gloeckler of the University of Maryland, = principal investigator of the Ulysses solar-wind ion-composition = spectrometer team. The instrument studies the content and electrical = charge of ionized gases. While his team detected ions typically found in = comets, the magnetometer team observed magnetic field directional = changes like those associated with comet tails.=20 Comets are of great interest, because they may be the frozen leftovers = of the birth of our solar system. They could hold clues to the formation = of Earth and life, since one theory holds that comets "seeded" Earth and = other planets with the building blocks of life.=20 Comets are made of dirty ice, and as they approach the Sun and heat up, = they emit gas and dust, forming gas and dust tails. The gas slows the = solar wind and the portion of the magnetic field near the comet. The = parts of the magnetic field farther from the comet continue to travel = rapidly past it. Magnetic fields can be stretched like rubber bands. The = magnetic field is draped around the comet and stretches out behind it in = a hairpin shape.=20 Gloeckler is lead author of the Nature paper on the ion findings, along = with Schwadron, and Drs. Lennard Fisk and Thomas Zurbuchen, also of the = University of Michigan, and Dr. Johannes Geiss of the International = Space Science Institute in Switzerland. The other Nature article, on the = Ulysses magnetometer findings, was authored by Jones and Professor Andre = Balogh of Imperial College and Dr. Timothy Horbury of Queen Mary and = Westfield College, London.=20 Jones at Imperial College looked more closely at the magnetic field data = because of the publication of the unusual 1996 solar wind event in the = Journal of Geophysical Research. It was authored by Dr. Peter Riley, = formerly of Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, and based on = data from the Ulysses solar wind instrument. Jones and Horbury saw that = the data looked like a cometary tail, and Jones searched until he found = the tail's source -- Hyakutake. Gloeckler and his colleagues noticed the = event independently and realized it was cometary material.=20 Ulysses, launched in 1990, is a joint venture of NASA and the European = Space Agency (ESA). The spacecraft studies the Sun from a high-latitude = orbit, mostly at right angles to the plane of orbiting planets. Ulysses = studies the Sun's magnetic fields, solar winds and cosmic rays near the = Sun's North and South Poles, away from the equator, where Earth orbits. = Ulysses has no camera, but its ten sophisticated instruments can observe = some phenomena not detectable by visible observations. Scientists now = know that sensitive instruments, like those found on Ulysses, can detect = comet tail particles that are not normally visible. The Jet Propulsion = Laboratory (JPL) manages Ulysses for NASA's Office of Space Science, = Washington, D.C.=20 More information on the Ulysses mission is available at: = http://ulysses.jpl.nasa.gov and http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- NOTE: Animation, interview clips and B-roll of the Ulysses comet = encounter will air on NASA-TV at 3pm, 6pm and 9pm PDT today and again = tomorrow at 9am, 12 noon, 3pm, 6pm and 9pm on NASA TV. NASA Television = is available on transponder 9C of the GE-2 satellite at 85 degrees West = longitude, vertical polarization, frequency 3880 MHz, audio of 6.8 MHz.=20 =20 Comet 1996 B2 Hyakutake Home Page=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0E11C.052F6560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ulysses Spacecraft Meets A Comet
 

Ulysses Spacecraft Meets A Comet

=20 

MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109 TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov

Contact:  Jane Platt (818) 354-0880             =20


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                         April 5, 2000

STRANGERS IN THE NIGHT: ULYSSES SPACECRAFT MEETS A COMET

During an unplanned rendezvous, the Ulysses spacecraft found itself = gliding=20 though the immense tail of Comet Hyakutake, revealing that comet tails = may be=20 much, much longer than previously believed.=20

"The odds that Ulysses' flight path would intersect the comet tail = were=20 probably less likely than someone breaking the bank at Monte Carlo," = said Dr.=20 Edward Smith of NASA' s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA, the = Ulysses=20 project scientist and a co-investigator for its magnetometer instrument. = Before=20 the unexpected encounter, Ulysses was hundreds of millions of = kilometers, or=20 miles, away from Comet Hyakutake and far beyond the visible tail.=20

"This tail extends half a billion kilometers (more than 300 million = miles).=20 That's more than three times the distance from the Earth to the Sun," = said Dr.=20 Nathan Schwadron, of the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, a member = of one of=20 two Ulysses teams that made the discovery independently of one another. = Findings=20 from both teams appear in the April 6 issue of the journal Nature.=20

"This makes it the longest comet tail ever recorded," said Dr. = Geraint Jones=20 from Imperial College, London, of the Ulysses magnetometer team.=20

Comet Hyakutake, one of the brightest comets of the 20th century, = made a=20 dazzling nighttime appearance in the spring of 1996, when it made a = close pass=20 by the Sun. While Ulysses was cruising through space studying the solar = wind on=20 May 1, 1996, its data suddenly went wild for a few hours. For example, = the solar=20 wind seemed to almost disappear and was replaced by gases not normally = found in=20 the solar wind, and the magnetic field in the solar wind was distorted. = Since=20 Ulysses scientists were not looking for comets, they did not realize the = significance of the data right away.=20

"The discovery was made quite by accident, a bit like finding a = needle in a=20 haystack when you weren't even looking for a needle in the first place," = said=20 Dr. George Gloeckler of the University of Maryland, principal = investigator of=20 the Ulysses solar-wind ion-composition spectrometer team. The instrument = studies=20 the content and electrical charge of ionized gases. While his team = detected ions=20 typically found in comets, the magnetometer team observed magnetic field = directional changes like those associated with comet tails.=20

Comets are of great interest, because they may be the frozen = leftovers of the=20 birth of our solar system. They could hold clues to the formation of = Earth and=20 life, since one theory holds that comets "seeded" Earth and other = planets with=20 the building blocks of life.=20

Comets are made of dirty ice, and as they approach the Sun and heat = up, they=20 emit gas and dust, forming gas and dust tails. The gas slows the solar = wind and=20 the portion of the magnetic field near the comet. The parts of the = magnetic=20 field farther from the comet continue to travel rapidly past it. = Magnetic fields=20 can be stretched like rubber bands. The magnetic field is draped around = the=20 comet and stretches out behind it in a hairpin shape.=20

Gloeckler is lead author of the Nature paper on the ion findings, = along with=20 Schwadron, and Drs. Lennard Fisk and Thomas Zurbuchen, also of the = University of=20 Michigan, and Dr. Johannes Geiss of the International Space Science = Institute in=20 Switzerland. The other Nature article, on the Ulysses magnetometer = findings, was=20 authored by Jones and Professor Andre Balogh of Imperial College and Dr. = Timothy=20 Horbury of Queen Mary and Westfield College, London.=20

Jones at Imperial College looked more closely at the magnetic field = data=20 because of the publication of the unusual 1996 solar wind event in the = Journal=20 of Geophysical Research. It was authored by Dr. Peter Riley, formerly of = Los=20 Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, and based on data from the = Ulysses=20 solar wind instrument. Jones and Horbury saw that the data looked like a = cometary tail, and Jones searched until he found the tail's source -- = Hyakutake.=20 Gloeckler and his colleagues noticed the event independently and = realized it was=20 cometary material.=20

Ulysses, launched in 1990, is a joint venture of NASA and the = European Space=20 Agency (ESA). The spacecraft studies the Sun from a high-latitude orbit, = mostly=20 at right angles to the plane of orbiting planets. Ulysses studies the = Sun's=20 magnetic fields, solar winds and cosmic rays near the Sun's North and = South=20 Poles, away from the equator, where Earth orbits. Ulysses has no camera, = but its=20 ten sophisticated instruments can observe some phenomena not detectable = by=20 visible observations. Scientists now know that sensitive instruments, = like those=20 found on Ulysses, can detect comet tail particles that are not normally = visible.=20 The Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) manages Ulysses for NASA's Office of = Space=20 Science, Washington, D.C.=20

More information on the Ulysses mission is available at:=20 http://ulysses.jpl.nasa.gov and http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/=20

NOTE: Animation, interview clips and B-roll of the Ulysses comet = encounter=20 will air on NASA-TV at 3pm, 6pm and 9pm PDT today and again tomorrow at = 9am, 12=20 noon, 3pm, 6pm and 9pm on NASA TV. NASA Television is available on = transponder=20 9C of the GE-2 satellite at 85 degrees West longitude, vertical = polarization,=20 frequency 3880 MHz, audio of 6.8 MHz.=20 

=20
Comet 1996=20 B2 Hyakutake Home Page=20

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Sun, 20 May 2001 10:26:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 10:26:42 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <010001c0e13f$6e09d020$8eb4bfa8@computer> References: Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:23:40 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"Mr_q-.0.Ay4.Hv_1x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42690 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred Sparber wrote: >The 5.1E-9 meters/sec^2 "deceleration" due to the pull of >the Sun-Solar System-Kuiper Belt, with the center of mass located at the >center of the >Sun, is consistent with the >(~1.0E-10 "g") deceleration "anomaly" value that NASA claims for Pioneer 10. ***{Yes, it could be, if you cease to focus primarily on the Kuiper belt, and begin to focus on the mass of the planetary disc itself, as you now seem to be doing. However, that interpretation requires a bit of ineptitude on the part of the JPL celestial mechanics team, don't you think? After all, Ulysees has had plenty of time to clue them in, if that is really what is going on. Here, for example, is a quote that bears on this question: "Launched by the Space Shuttle Discovery in October, 1990, Ulysses flew by Jupiter in February, 1992, where a gravity assist manoeuvre placed the spacecraft in a unique solar polar orbit, allowing it to fly over the south pole of the Sun in 1994 and over the north pole in 1995. With the first phase of its mission successfully completed, Ulysses has now embarked on a second orbit of the Sun, which it will complete in December, 2001." (See file:///HD4000/Temporary%20Items/102436+%201.x-html.) >From the above, we may conclude that Ulysses has a period of about 5 years (60 months), and, since it entered its present solar orbit in Feb. 1992, it moves away from the planetary disc for about 15 months, then toward it for 15 months, etc. Since it has been in orbit about 9 years (108 months), it has had 7.2 quarter-periods up to the present, with every even-numbered one (i.e., 3 of them) involving a speeding up of its motion, and since the JPL team has access to that data, why haven't they noticed? They must be pretty dumb to miss something as obvious as that, don't you think? :-) Of course, given the nature of the world, maybe they are! --Mitchell Jones}*** >Regards, Frederick ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 10:55:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA27045; Sun, 20 May 2001 10:52:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 10:52:33 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c0e14b$1b500640$4f181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:37:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"JITG83.0.Sc6.XH02x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42691 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One of the methods Tesla used to create a higher voltage potential in ihs energy reciever is use the ground as the negative post. Stay tuned Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sunday, May 20, 2001 6:18 AM Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies >On Friday 11 May 2001 19:28, Charles Ford wrote: >> To prevent misunderstanding. >> >> > >> Amplification does not relate to matter, only energy. It takes MORE >energy >> > >> to amplify energy , not less, and you may create a resonance tuned to >the >> > >> atom , but then you create a Laser, because eventually the Amplified >> > energy >> > >> will have to go somewhere. >> >> Resonance does not create energy it accumulates energy. The mechanism of >> discharge is always non resonant and wasteful. >> >> > >> A capacitor stores electrical energy, but then releases it, and the >> > rate and >> > >> amount of release determines the capacitance. >> >> The capacitor only stores the energy. Release is external. The amount of >> energy it can store is dependant on the voltage at which you store the >> energy. The capacity "Capacitance" is dependant on how much energy is >> stored at a given voltage. The amount of energy that can be released is >> the same as the amount that is stored. >> >> > >> A Resistor prevents energy from traveling along a path, >> >> A resister allows this travel while converting some of the energy to heat. >> >> > >> And an amplifier takes a small input and creates a larger output. It is >> > >> nothing more than a flow controller, and it by itself cannot do >anything >> > >> like you describe. >> >> The resister is a flow control. An amplifier is an active device that uses >> external energy to increase the energy of a given input Weather it be >> mechanical as with an automotive power steering system or electrical as >> with a radio receiver. >> >> > >>>> A Coil takes a very low voltage with a high current and turns it >> > into a very >> > >> high voltage with a low current. >> >> That would be a transformer. A coil uses magnetic fields to provide an >> exaggeration of an inertia like effect of electrical current flow called >> inductance. It may also be used to radiate or collect magnetic signal >energy. >> >> > >> Conservation of energy still takes place. You cannot get something for >> > >> nothing. In fact the law of the universe is you get nothing or less >than >> > >> something for something. >> >> Eh hm... You cannot get less.. All remains the same. If you waist energy >> in an electrical circuit you get heat and electromagnetic radiation. These >> will total up to the loss. >> >> > >> We can store energy, we can convert it, but if you have a low amount of >> > >> energy, to convert it to a higher amount requires NO loss in >manufacture, >> > >> and as of the creation of the universe, its never been done. >> >> If you start with a low amount of energy you might change the form or >> parameters but you end up with a low amount of energy. To "manufacture" >> energy requires some sort of fuel >> >> > >> Some one invented a diode once. It has the action of only allowing >> > energy to >> > >> flow in one direction. However, it needs energy to activate, and >therefore >> > >> reduces the energy you flow past it. Some one connected 2 diodes >> > together in >> > >> a certain fashion, and therefore created a transistor, worsened the >> > problem. >> > >> It adds noise to the formula. >> >> A transistor is not two diodes. It is in fact a single diode. The trans >> -resistive property of a diode is exploited by connecting external >> conductors to two locations on one end of the same diode. This allows us >> to control a large amount of current with a small amount of current. The >> Mecca to technology that we live in today is based on this property of a >diode. >> >> > >> Matter can be moved and molded and changed all with a cost of energy >to do >> > >> so. Matter can store energy in its electrical field, and its inertia, >> > and it >> > >> can release energy when you break it down, but you cannot create >> > matter from >> > >> energy. The entire amount of matter created from the untold hours of >> > >> particle collisions around the world in all the colliding equipment >ever >> > >> made could fit between this --> <-- and weigh about a gram. >> > >> >> > >> Considering all the Energy used to make that much matter, that should >more >> > >> than prove to you that there is no free lunch. >> > >> >> > >> Matthew Rogers >> > >> Prove it.. >> > >> Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > >A transistor is not two diodes! A diode, as in semiconductor diode, >is a two layer sandwich of opposing type semiconductor material; >usually germanium or silicon crystals with differing impurities, or 'dopings'. >A transistor is composed of three layers of these same materials, with >the two outer layers of one type and the inner layer of the opposing >type. Leads called the emitter, base, and collector are respectively >fastened to the bottom, middle, and top layers of the transistor. The >layering idea lends itsellf naturally to circuit integration methods, giving >rise to our "IC's" that are in so many of our items today. Transistors >are voltage controlled devices that control current flows with small >variations of voltage near the 'diode drop' voltage applied to the >'base', similar in ways to the 'control grid' of the old vacuum triode >tube originally designed by Lee De Forest back in the early 20th >century. > C'mon people, this is a scientific site! Let us put quality in our >letters by word and example. The whole world is watching us, and >waiting and hoping for new discoveries. Inklings of those will >probably be found in places like this list long before they become >somebody's copyrighted and for sale front page news story. Often >covered up real news can be found here too, like some cold >fusion research. > >Standing Bear > rockcast@net-link.net > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 11:31:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA05883; Sun, 20 May 2001 11:30:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 11:30:52 -0700 Message-ID: <012f01c0e152$58998d80$8eb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" , References: Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:28:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"PrgBO.0.lR1.Rr02x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42692 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitchell Jones" To: Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Mitchell Jones wrote: > Fred Sparber wrote: > > >The 5.1E-9 meters/sec^2 "deceleration" due to the pull of > >the Sun-Solar System-Kuiper Belt, with the center of mass located at the > >center of the > >Sun, is consistent with the > >(~1.0E-10 "g") deceleration "anomaly" value that NASA claims for Pioneer 10. > > ***{Yes, it could be, if you cease to focus primarily on the Kuiper belt, > and begin to focus on the mass of the planetary disc itself, as you now > seem to be doing. However, that interpretation requires a bit of ineptitude > on the part of the JPL celestial mechanics team, don't you think? Since I haven't been out to JPL in over a decade, I'm not sure> :-) The emphasis was on Pioneer 10 out at ~12 light-hours (> 85 AU) from the Sun. Ulysses with an orbital period of 6 years (about 2.5 AU radius from the Sun) is a different subject. Especially after it flew through a "Comet Tail" last year. Regards, Frederick > After all, Ulysees has had plenty of time to clue them in, if that is really what > is going on. Here, for example, is a quote that bears on this question: > > "Launched by the Space Shuttle Discovery in October, 1990, Ulysses flew by > Jupiter in February, 1992, where a gravity assist manoeuvre placed the > spacecraft in a unique solar polar orbit, allowing it to fly over the south > pole of the Sun in 1994 and over the north pole in 1995. With the first > phase of its mission successfully completed, Ulysses has now embarked on a > second orbit of the Sun, which it will complete in December, 2001." (See > file:///HD4000/Temporary%20Items/102436+%201.x-html.) > > From the above, we may conclude that Ulysses has a period of about 5 years > (60 months), and, since it entered its present solar orbit in Feb. 1992, it > moves away from the planetary disc for about 15 months, then toward it for > 15 months, etc. Since it has been in orbit about 9 years (108 months), it > has had 7.2 quarter-periods up to the present, with every even-numbered one > (i.e., 3 of them) involving a speeding up of its motion, and since the JPL > team has access to that data, why haven't they noticed? > > They must be pretty dumb to miss something as obvious as that, don't you > think? :-) > > Of course, given the nature of the world, maybe they are! > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >Regards, Frederick > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 12:26:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA21526; Sun, 20 May 2001 12:25:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:25:19 -0700 Message-ID: <005301c0e158$11d1aee0$4f181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 10:22:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0043_01C0E116.BF20C5A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ys4Kx2.0.GG5.Ue12x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42693 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C0E116.BF20C5A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---- It is some information like this and other Tesla transformer patents = that researchers have discovered, relate to radiant energy not to = classical EMF techology. Most hands on type inventors pick up and take = to another level a lot of Tesla, Keely, Gray technology Check out Gray = Patent USP 4,595,975 Richardson Patent USP 4,077,001 . Bruce - THE LOST INVENTIONS OF NIKOLA TESLA =20 Anonymous =20 For starters, think of this as a solar-electric panel. Tesla's = invention is very different, but the closest thing to it in conventional = technology is in photovoltaic. One radical difference is that = conventional solar-electric panels consist of a substrate coated with = crystalline silicon; the latest use amorphous silicon. Conventional = solar panels are expensive, and, whatever the coating, they are = manufactured by esoteric processes. But Tesla's "solar panel" is just a = shiny metal plate with a transparent coating of some insulating material = which today could be a spray plastic. Stick one of these antenna-like = panels up in the air, the higher the better, and wire it to one side of = a capacitor, the other going to a good earth ground. Now the energy = from the suns charging that capacitor. Connect across the capacitor = some sort of switching device so that is can be discharges at rhythmic = intervals, and you have an electric output. Tesla's patent is telling = us that it is the simple to get electric energy. The bigger the are of = the insulated plate, the more energy you get. But this is more than a Solar panel" because it does not = necessarily need sunshine to operate. It also produces power at night. Of course, this is impossible according to official science. = For this reason, you could not get a patent on such a invention today. = Many an inventor has learned this the hard way. Tesla had his problems = with he patent examiners, but today's free-energy inventor has it much = tougher. At the time of this writing, the U.S. Patent Office is headed = by a Reagan appointee who came to the office straight from a top = executive position with Phillips Petroleum. Tesla's free-energy receiver was patented in 1901 as An = Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant Energy. The patent refers to=20 "the sun, as well as other sources of radiant energy, like cosmic = rays." That the device works at night is explained in terms of the = night-time availability of cosmic rays. Tesla also refers to the ground = as "a vast reservoir of negative electricity." Tesla was fascinated by radiant energy and its free-energy = possibilities. He called the Crooke's radiometer (a device which as = vanes that spin in a vacuum when exposed to radiant energy) "a beautiful = invention." He believed that it would become possible to harness energy = directly by "connecting to the very wheelwork of nature." His = free-energy receiver is as close as he ever came to such a device in his = patented work. But on his 76th birthday at the ritual press conference, = Tesla (who was without the financial wherewithal to patent but went on = inventing in his head) announced a "cosmic-ray motor." When asked if it = was more powerful than the Crooke's radiometer, he answered, "thousands of times more = powerful." =20 How it works =20 From the electric Potential that exists between the elevated = plate (plus) and the ground (minus) energy builds in the capacitor, and, = after "a suitable time interval," the accumulated energy will "manifest = itself in a powerful discharge" which can do work. The capacitor says Tesla, should be "of considerable electrostatic = capacity," and its dielectric made of "the best quality mica,' for it = has to withstand potentials that could rupture a weaker dielectric. Tesla give various options for the switching device. One is a = rotary switch that resembles a Tesia circuit controller. Another is an = electrostatic device consisting of two very light, membranous conductors = suspended in a vacuum. These sense the energy build-up in the capacitor, one going positive, the other negative, = and, at a certain charge level, are attracted, touch, and thus fire the = capacitor. Tesla also mentions another switching device consisting of a = minute air gap or weak dielectric film which breaks down suddenly when a = certain potential is reached. The above is about all the technical detail you get in the = patent. Although I've seen a few cursory references to Tesla's = invention in my sampling of the literature of free-energy. I am not = aware of any attempts to verify it experimentally. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C0E116.BF20C5A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----
It is some information = like=20 this  and other Tesla transformer patents that researchers have = discovered,=20 relate to radiant energy not to classical EMF techology. Most  = hands on=20 type inventors pick up and take to another level a lot of Tesla, Keely, = Gray=20 technology  Check out Gray Patent USP 4,595,975 Richardson Patent = USP=20 4,077,001 . Bruce
 
-
THE LOST INVENTIONS OF NIKOLA=20 TESLA
 
Anonymous
 
For starters, think of this as a = solar-electric=20 panel.  Tesla's invention is very different, but the closest = thing to=20 it in conventional technology is in photovoltaic.  One radical=20 difference is that conventional solar-electric panels consist of a = substrate=20 coated with crystalline silicon; the latest use amorphous = silicon. =20 Conventional solar panels are expensive, and, whatever the coating, = they are=20 manufactured by esoteric processes.  But Tesla's "solar=20 panel" is just a shiny metal plate with a transparent coating = of some=20 insulating material which today could be a spray plastic.  = Stick one of=20 these antenna-like panels up in the air, the higher the better, and = wire it=20 to one side of a capacitor, the other going to a good earth = ground. =20 Now the energy from the suns charging that capacitor.  Connect = across=20 the capacitor some sort of switching device so that is can be = discharges at=20 rhythmic intervals, and you have an electric output.  Tesla's = patent is=20 telling us that it is the simple to get electric energy.  The = bigger=20 the are of  the insulated plate, the more energy you = get.
    But this is more = than a=20 Solar panel" because it does not necessarily need sunshine to=20 operate.  It also produces power at night.
    Of course, this = is=20 impossible according to official science.  For this reason, you = could=20 not get a patent on such a invention today. Many an inventor has = learned=20 this the hard way.  Tesla had his problems with he patent = examiners,=20 but today's free-energy inventor has it much tougher.  At the = time of=20 this writing, the U.S. Patent Office is headed by a Reagan appointee = who=20 came to the office straight from a top executive position with = Phillips=20 Petroleum.
    Tesla's = free-energy receiver=20 was patented in 1901 as An Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant=20 Energy.  The patent refers to
"the sun, as well as other = sources of=20 radiant energy, like cosmic rays."  That the device works = at night=20 is explained in terms of the night-time availability of cosmic = rays. =20 Tesla also refers to the ground as "a vast reservoir of = negative=20 electricity."
    Tesla was = fascinated by=20 radiant energy and its free-energy possibilities.  He called = the=20 Crooke's radiometer (a device which as vanes that spin in a vacuum = when=20 exposed to radiant energy) "a beautiful invention." He = believed=20 that it would become possible to harness energy directly by = "connecting=20 to the very wheelwork of nature."  His free-energy = receiver is as=20 close as he ever came to such a device in his patented work.  = But on=20 his 76th birthday at the ritual press conference, Tesla (who was = without the=20 financial wherewithal to patent but went on inventing in his head) = announced=20 a "cosmic-ray motor."  When asked if it was more=20 powerful
than the Crooke's radiometer, he = answered,=20 "thousands of times more powerful."
 
    How it = works
   
    From the = electric Potential=20 that exists between the elevated plate (plus) and the ground (minus) = energy=20 builds in the capacitor, and, after "a suitable time = interval,"=20 the accumulated energy will "manifest itself in a powerful=20 discharge" which can do work.
The capacitor says Tesla, should be = "of=20 considerable electrostatic capacity," and its dielectric made = of=20 "the best quality mica,' for it has to withstand potentials = that could=20 rupture a weaker dielectric.
    Tesla give = various options=20 for the switching device.  One is a rotary switch that = resembles a=20 Tesia circuit controller.  Another is an electrostatic device=20 consisting of two very light, membranous conductors suspended in a=20 vacuum.  These sense the energy
build-up in the capacitor, one = going positive,=20 the other negative, and, at a certain charge level, are attracted, = touch,=20 and thus fire the capacitor.  Tesla also mentions another = switching=20 device consisting of a minute air gap or weak dielectric film which = breaks=20 down suddenly when a certain potential is reached.
    The above is = about all the=20 technical detail you get in the patent.  Although I've seen a = few=20 cursory references to Tesla's invention in my sampling of the = literature of=20 free-energy.  I am not aware of any attempts to verify it=20 experimentally.
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C0E116.BF20C5A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 12:55:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29288; Sun, 20 May 2001 12:54:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:54:29 -0700 Message-ID: <014501c0e15e$0889d500$8eb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: , "Colin Quinney" , Subject: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 13:52:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0142_01C0E134.1B9B85A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"6c7i81.0.U97.r322x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42694 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0142_01C0E134.1B9B85A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bruce Meland=20 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Cc: rockcast@net-link.net=20 Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 12:22 PM Subject: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Let's see. The Fair Weather Field runs about 1.5 Volts/Meter at ground = level (positive wrt the Earth). I think youse got a Light Lepton (Minus) collector here, Bruce. Or one = heck of a lightning rod. :-) Regards, Frederick ---- It is some information like this and other Tesla transformer patents = that researchers have discovered, relate to radiant energy not to = classical EMF techology. Most hands on type inventors pick up and take = to another level a lot of Tesla, Keely, Gray technology Check out Gray = Patent USP 4,595,975 Richardson Patent USP 4,077,001 . Bruce - THE LOST INVENTIONS OF NIKOLA TESLA =20 Anonymous =20 For starters, think of this as a solar-electric panel. Tesla's = invention is very different, but the closest thing to it in conventional = technology is in photovoltaic. One radical difference is that = conventional solar-electric panels consist of a substrate coated with = crystalline silicon; the latest use amorphous silicon. Conventional = solar panels are expensive, and, whatever the coating, they are = manufactured by esoteric processes. But Tesla's "solar panel" is just a = shiny metal plate with a transparent coating of some insulating material = which today could be a spray plastic. Stick one of these antenna-like = panels up in the air, the higher the better, and wire it to one side of = a capacitor, the other going to a good earth ground. Now the energy = from the suns charging that capacitor. Connect across the capacitor = some sort of switching device so that is can be discharges at rhythmic = intervals, and you have an electric output. Tesla's patent is telling = us that it is the simple to get electric energy. The bigger the are of = the insulated plate, the more energy you get. But this is more than a Solar panel" because it does not = necessarily need sunshine to operate. It also produces power at night. Of course, this is impossible according to official science. For = this reason, you could not get a patent on such a invention today. Many = an inventor has learned this the hard way. Tesla had his problems with = he patent examiners, but today's free-energy inventor has it much = tougher. At the time of this writing, the U.S. Patent Office is headed = by a Reagan appointee who came to the office straight from a top = executive position with Phillips Petroleum. Tesla's free-energy receiver was patented in 1901 as An Apparatus = for the Utilization of Radiant Energy. The patent refers to=20 "the sun, as well as other sources of radiant energy, like cosmic = rays." That the device works at night is explained in terms of the = night-time availability of cosmic rays. Tesla also refers to the ground = as "a vast reservoir of negative electricity." Tesla was fascinated by radiant energy and its free-energy = possibilities. He called the Crooke's radiometer (a device which as = vanes that spin in a vacuum when exposed to radiant energy) "a beautiful = invention." He believed that it would become possible to harness energy = directly by "connecting to the very wheelwork of nature." His = free-energy receiver is as close as he ever came to such a device in his = patented work. But on his 76th birthday at the ritual press conference, = Tesla (who was without the financial wherewithal to patent but went on = inventing in his head) announced a "cosmic-ray motor." When asked if it = was more powerful than the Crooke's radiometer, he answered, "thousands of times more = powerful." =20 How it works =20 From the electric Potential that exists between the elevated plate = (plus) and the ground (minus) energy builds in the capacitor, and, after = "a suitable time interval," the accumulated energy will "manifest itself = in a powerful discharge" which can do work. The capacitor says Tesla, should be "of considerable electrostatic = capacity," and its dielectric made of "the best quality mica,' for it = has to withstand potentials that could rupture a weaker dielectric. Tesla give various options for the switching device. One is a = rotary switch that resembles a Tesia circuit controller. Another is an = electrostatic device consisting of two very light, membranous conductors = suspended in a vacuum. These sense the energy build-up in the capacitor, one going positive, the other negative, = and, at a certain charge level, are attracted, touch, and thus fire the = capacitor. Tesla also mentions another switching device consisting of a = minute air gap or weak dielectric film which breaks down suddenly when a = certain potential is reached. The above is about all the technical detail you get in the patent. = Although I've seen a few cursory references to Tesla's invention in my = sampling of the literature of free-energy. I am not aware of any = attempts to verify it experimentally. ------=_NextPart_000_0142_01C0E134.1B9B85A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bruce = Meland=20
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 12:22 PM
Subject: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla
 
Let's see.  The Fair Weather Field runs about 1.5 Volts/Meter = at=20 ground level (positive wrt the Earth).
 
I think youse got a Light Lepton (Minus) collector here,=20 Bruce. Or one heck of a lightning rod. :-)
 
Regards,    Frederick

 
----
It is some information = like=20 this  and other Tesla transformer patents that researchers have = discovered,=20 relate to radiant energy not to classical EMF techology. Most  = hands on=20 type inventors pick up and take to another level a lot of Tesla, Keely, = Gray=20 technology  Check out Gray Patent USP 4,595,975 Richardson Patent = USP=20 4,077,001 . Bruce
 
-
THE LOST INVENTIONS OF NIKOLA=20 TESLA
 
Anonymous
 
For starters, think of this as a = solar-electric=20 panel.  Tesla's invention is very different, but the closest = thing to it=20 in conventional technology is in photovoltaic.  One radical = difference is=20 that conventional solar-electric panels consist of a substrate coated = with=20 crystalline silicon; the latest use amorphous silicon.  = Conventional=20 solar panels are expensive, and, whatever the coating, they are = manufactured=20 by esoteric processes.  But Tesla's "solar panel" is just a shiny = metal=20 plate with a transparent coating of some insulating material which = today could=20 be a spray plastic.  Stick one of these antenna-like panels up in = the=20 air, the higher the better, and wire it to one side of a capacitor, = the other=20 going to a good earth ground.  Now the energy from the suns = charging that=20 capacitor.  Connect across the capacitor some sort of switching = device so=20 that is can be discharges at rhythmic intervals, and you have an = electric=20 output.  Tesla's patent is telling us that it is the simple to = get=20 electric energy.  The bigger the are of  the insulated = plate, the=20 more energy you get.
    But this is more = than a Solar=20 panel" because it does not necessarily need sunshine to operate.  = It also=20 produces power at night.
    Of course, this is = impossible=20 according to official science.  For this reason, you could not = get a=20 patent on such a invention today. Many an inventor has learned this = the hard=20 way.  Tesla had his problems with he patent examiners, but = today's=20 free-energy inventor has it much tougher.  At the time of this = writing,=20 the U.S. Patent Office is headed by a Reagan appointee who came to the = office=20 straight from a top executive position with Phillips = Petroleum.
    Tesla's = free-energy receiver=20 was patented in 1901 as An Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant=20 Energy.  The patent refers to
"the sun, as well as other sources of = radiant=20 energy, like cosmic rays."  That the device works at night is = explained=20 in terms of the night-time availability of cosmic rays.  Tesla = also=20 refers to the ground as "a vast reservoir of negative=20 electricity."
    Tesla was = fascinated by=20 radiant energy and its free-energy possibilities.  He called the = Crooke's=20 radiometer (a device which as vanes that spin in a vacuum when exposed = to=20 radiant energy) "a beautiful invention." He believed that it would = become=20 possible to harness energy directly by "connecting to the very = wheelwork of=20 nature."  His free-energy receiver is as close as he ever came to = such a=20 device in his patented work.  But on his 76th birthday at the = ritual=20 press conference, Tesla (who was without the financial wherewithal to = patent=20 but went on inventing in his head) announced a "cosmic-ray = motor."  When=20 asked if it was more powerful
than the Crooke's radiometer, he = answered,=20 "thousands of times more powerful."
 
    How it = works
   
    From the electric = Potential=20 that exists between the elevated plate (plus) and the ground (minus) = energy=20 builds in the capacitor, and, after "a suitable time interval," the=20 accumulated energy will "manifest itself in a powerful discharge" = which can do=20 work.
The capacitor says Tesla, should be = "of=20 considerable electrostatic capacity," and its dielectric made of "the = best=20 quality mica,' for it has to withstand potentials that could rupture a = weaker=20 dielectric.
    Tesla give various = options for=20 the switching device.  One is a rotary switch that resembles a = Tesia=20 circuit controller.  Another is an electrostatic device = consisting of two=20 very light, membranous conductors suspended in a vacuum.  These = sense the=20 energy
build-up in the capacitor, one going = positive,=20 the other negative, and, at a certain charge level, are attracted, = touch, and=20 thus fire the capacitor.  Tesla also mentions another switching = device=20 consisting of a minute air gap or weak dielectric film which breaks = down=20 suddenly when a certain potential is reached.
    The above is about = all the=20 technical detail you get in the patent.  Although I've seen a few = cursory=20 references to Tesla's invention in my sampling of the literature of=20 free-energy.  I am not aware of any attempts to verify it=20 experimentally.
------=_NextPart_000_0142_01C0E134.1B9B85A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 14:10:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA19786; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:09:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:09:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3B08255A.275BD8D3@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:13:19 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GmYFj2.0.yq4.7A32x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42695 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The problem, Mitchell, is in your assumptions. The logic is fine. You need to demonstrate that the assumptions apply to the real world using observation, not logic. Mitchell Jones wrote: > I would like to sum up the position I have been advocating in this thread, > for the benefit of any newcomers who may find the recent posts a bit > confusing. The logic I have been using runs as follows: > > (1) It seems *crystal clear* that, out of the infinitude of details that > comprise an individual human being, some are essential to his continued > presence in this world, and some are not. A person can, for example, get a > haircut and remain in the world, but if he gets the top of his head chopped > off down to the eyeballs, he is out of here. :-) This statement is too simplistic to be an argument. The question is, "Can a person continue to be in this world (alive) while losing so much of his essence that he is no longer recognized as the previous person? The answer is yes. Therefore, our "essence" depends on our physical body which is not recreated in the next life. It is a big assumption to propose that a physical body containing all of the parts needed to define your essence at the time of death will be recreated. > > > (2) Since, out of the vast multitudes of new life forms that came into the > world before we did, none were us, it seems clear that there were > conditions that needed to be satisfied, in order to bring us into the > world. What conditions? Logically, the conditions defined in (1), above--to > wit: when the conditions that were necessary to keep us in the world first > began to be satisfied, we came into the world. This also is too simplest. Obviously, all things, rocks and humans, only exist when their characteristics exist. A rock would not be a rock unless it had the properties we define as a rock. Likewise, we have defined ourselves as human. The fact that we are aware of being human and different from a dog, for example, means nothing. A dog also knows he is different than us. Whatever form we came as, we would define it as our characteristic. There is nothing unique in this process. It is a false assumption to hold this process as being unique. > > > (3) Since, after we die, the same situation which pertained before we were > born is restored--i.e., we do not exist in the physical world--it clearly > seems to follow that, if the conditions that brought us into the world > before are once again satisfied, we will come into the world again. This big assumption is at the heart of the argument. What happens when the exact conditions of your creation are satisfied before you die? Does another "you" exist? What happens when both of the "you" dies and the exact conditions are again created? Which "you" gets to be reborn? You see, your assumption creates a logical nightmare which I expect you will try to resolve by creating more assumptions. > > > (4) Since the traits that define each unique stream of consciousness > obviously have to do with the unique way in which that being will respond > to stimuli, which are determined by that being's understanding of the > world, and since each new being which comes into the world receives a > genetically encoded set of understandings, courtesy of natural selection, > and since natural selection operates throughout the universe, it seems > clearly to follow that eventually, somewhere in this gigantic universe, the > traits defining a person's stream of consciousness at the time of his death > will appear again, as part of the genetically encoded understandings of a > new infant. Thus it seems crystal clear that, like it or not, after we die > we will eventually live again. This is rather like the argument that if enough monkeys were given typewriters, sooner or later they would write all of the world's literature. The argument rests on the false assumption that the world as we know it will always be the same and that the past and the future depend on a chance combination of known events. If there is a fly in this ointment, what is it? I suggest the argument is full of flies. Nevertheless, this has been a very interesting and educational discussion. It has helped me clarify my beliefs even though I'm sure it has changed few minds. Regards, Ed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 14:53:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA30468; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:53:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:53:28 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01c0e0d8$04395d80$c0c21004@jeffery> References: <01c0e0d8$04395d80$c0c21004@jeffery> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 11:53:14 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"6YJHc2.0.-R7.Op32x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42696 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for the various comments on the possible cause of the mysterious slowdown of the distant spacecraft, but no one so far (unless I missed the post) has commented on the specific question I posed regarding divergence of a g field possibly having anything to do with the deviation. There was some fringe gravity idea I've seen somewhere where divergence was suggested to have some effect on the net force of gravity measured at a given point. For this to work as observed, the higher divergence at a point close to a large source would need to be distorting the measured value in a way that makes the mass seem lighter than it is. So when the test mass gets far away from the source where the radials from the source are starting to look like parallel lines, it now seems 'heavier' than it was *when impulses were given* to it that accelerated it to values that looked correct at that point. Note that I'm not saying that because it's 'heavier' out farther that it gets pulled on harder by gravity, I'm saying that when it was 'lighter' it recieved impulses that were in error even though they seemed right at the time. The assumption is that as something magically grows heavier momentum is conserved, and so it slows as a result. On the other side of this, if you were far from a large g source and were travelling towards the source, and you wanted to fire rockets briefly while still far away to bring you to a specified terminal velocity as you approached the source, you might ultimately find yourself going too fast. Sound familiar? (Apollo 13?) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 15:47:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA11127; Sun, 20 May 2001 15:44:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 15:44:41 -0700 Message-ID: <016401c0e175$cd9cc340$8eb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" , References: <01c0e0d8$04395d80$c0c21004@jeffery> Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 16:42:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"71_KL2.0.lj2.OZ42x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42697 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 4:53 PM Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Rick, If you had followed the post that I put up several days ago regarding the gravity field creating the "aether" and thus it's Capacity or Permittivity eo, and Inductance or Permeability uo, you would see where lightspeed c = 1/(uo*eo)^1/2 would decrease closer to a mass, and since there may be a cold companion Star for the Sun, ~12 light-hours out there; m = E/c^2 = E/(uo*eo) the mass would increase and lightspeed c would have to decrease to conserve energy E and momentum mv. Thus the 260 kg Pioneer 10 would increase in mass and have to slow down. How's that for a "divergent" viewpoint? :-) Regards, Frederick > Thanks for the various comments on the possible cause of the > mysterious slowdown of the distant spacecraft, but no one so far > (unless I missed the post) has commented on the specific question I > posed regarding divergence of a g field possibly having anything to > do with the deviation. > > There was some fringe gravity idea I've seen somewhere where > divergence was suggested to have some effect on the net force of > gravity measured at a given point. For this to work as observed, the > higher divergence at a point close to a large source would need to be > distorting the measured value in a way that makes the mass seem > lighter than it is. So when the test mass gets far away from the > source where the radials from the source are starting to look like > parallel lines, it now seems 'heavier' than it was *when impulses > were given* to it that accelerated it to values that looked correct > at that point. Note that I'm not saying that because it's 'heavier' > out farther that it gets pulled on harder by gravity, I'm saying that > when it was 'lighter' it recieved impulses that were in error even > though they seemed right at the time. The assumption is that as > something magically grows heavier momentum is conserved, and so it > slows as a result. > > On the other side of this, if you were far from a large g source and > were travelling towards the source, and you wanted to fire rockets > briefly while still far away to bring you to a specified terminal > velocity as you approached the source, you might ultimately find > yourself going too fast. Sound familiar? (Apollo 13?) > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 18:12:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA11767; Sun, 20 May 2001 18:11:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 18:11:54 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <016401c0e175$cd9cc340$8eb4bfa8@computer> References: <01c0e0d8$04395d80$c0c21004@jeffery> <016401c0e175$cd9cc340$8eb4bfa8@computer> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 15:10:07 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"n0u_O3.0.it2.Qj62x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42698 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick - > Thus the 260 kg Pioneer 10 would increase in mass and have to slow down. > >How's that for a "divergent" viewpoint? :-) > >Regards, Frederick That is an interesting explanation for it. What you propose is proportional to field density and not divergence. But it's been suggested that it's the divergence itself that causes gravitational effects at a point (not just tides). I'm sure it's deep inside Keelnet somewhere. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 18:56:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA21790; Sun, 20 May 2001 18:53:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 18:53:22 -0700 Message-ID: <01a901c0e190$293d5740$8eb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" Subject: Re: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:51:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0E166.37906E60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"OXe3F3.0.OK5.IK72x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42699 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0E166.37906E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe Nikola T. Was on to something. http://ghrc.msfc.nasa.gov/uso/ds_catalog/kscmillB.html Search Keywords: "Fair Weather Field" Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0E166.37906E60 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="kscmillB.html.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="kscmillB.html.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://ghrc.msfc.nasa.gov/uso/ds_catalog/kscmillB.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://ghrc.msfc.nasa.gov/uso/ds_catalog/kscmillB.html Modified=805861928FE1C001FC ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0E166.37906E60-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 19:49:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA06275; Sun, 20 May 2001 19:48:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:48:51 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lightspeed (photonic boom?) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 22:52:19 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <4.2.0.58.20010517120137.00967990@postoffice.swbell.net> In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010517120137.00967990@postoffice.swbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052022521903.00882@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA06233 Resent-Message-ID: <"E5wRK3.0.uX1.I882x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42700 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 17 May 2001 10:34, Charles Ford wrote: > At one point I had offered a scenario that could be used approaching and in > excess of light speed. You might remember the fly in a screen box. > > If one could separate a hunk of space (similar to the air inside the > cockpit of a supersonic jet) and propel that isolated hunk of space to and > beyond the speed of light then the occupants should be safe inside and > experiencing none of the sidekicks of there rate of travel. > > When a jet exceeds the sonic barrier an interesting thing happens. The air > pushed out of the way by the craft passing through it along with every > sound that craft makes all condenses into a cone shaped wave front that we > call "Sonic Boom" It does not take a genius to surmise that the same > would likely happen with the media of space as that which happened with air. > > A problem is that the very structure that holds our atoms together is the > media which this boom would travel through. Call it a photonic boom but I > think it is an extraordinarily dangerous thing. > > At 08:07 AM 5/17/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Consider the following > > > >Every object continually gives off energy in the form of photons, heat > >light reflections, etc. > > > >As a craft approaches lightspeed (in this universe- I am not precluding > >extra-dimensional travel) the wavelength of light emitted from the front > >of the craft decreases as a result of doppler. > > > >A similar situation occurs with sound waves coming from airplanes. > >This forms a shockwave of pressure known as a sonic boom. > > > >If... travel at lightspeed in this universe were possible, what would the > >photonic shockwave look like? > > > >Rabdom Musings > >Merlyn > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > Charlie Ford > > KC5-OWZ > cjford1@yahoo.com > cjford1@swbell.net > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Scientists of the early 1940's pondered the question concerning the speed of sound. They concluded that the speed of sound would never be exceeded because of vibration shock waves that would theoretically tear apart any craft that attempted to do it. This is similar to what you state concerning light in saying that the fabric of space would set up a similar shock wave. I refuse to accept on blind faith the preposition of space bound up with light in such a manner. Light is just energy. No one has ever seen a photon. We only really infer the presence of various atomic particals by tracks in Wilson chambers and other measuring devices or detectors. We may yet find some qualities of space that we may find useful or a hindrance as the case may be. Space and its practical means of travel are out there for us to discover. Others have. They have checked us out. Too many reports are out there for it to be an 'urban legend'. All the reports are NOT weather balloons, the planet Veeeenus, or the old lady in tennis shoes that had a peeepin tom with green eyes and blue skin............you know, like an Intel commercial on the telly. Those folks have to answer to their taxpayers too. And I am sure that they put their pants on just like us, one leg at a time. Whatever our visitors can do, so therefore can we. We only have to learn and earn our ability to do so. Concerning a light boom, maybe it would look like a form of Cerenkov radiation, but continuous along the line of travel. Cerenkov in various media occurs at the junction of two media where light passing through the faster media gives off a blue Cerenkov glow as it transits into the slower medium. An interesting study would be the behavior of light at this junction. We know that light slows down at this junction, but how fast. The engineer in me says that this slowing will not be instantaneous. there will be a slight space where light will be decellerating. What will the deceleration curve look like. Is there a zone of heating at the insertion point, however small. Davis physics relates force with the dot product of mass and the derivative of three dimensional velocity. (classical), but goes on to say that this is only the first term in what may be a Taylor series of successive higher order derivatives. This gives an effect of its own to rate of onset of acceleration, and so on. This theory is used by the Army in its 'Davis Gun', and by the trailer industry in its nail guns. It explains why straws go through telephone poles in tornadoes, and other weird but observed phenomena. This would be an excellent place to see Davis physics in micro. When I was in engineering school back in the 1970's, impact loading was an empirical formula and its application was with a high factor of safety, as we really could not explain what happened to material on impacts. Our fancy math and the 4th order differential equation of the elastic line broke down at that point in that they could not account for impact loads. No school knew about Davis physics at that time except as an obscure professor from Florida who was trying to explain how a garage tinkerer had made a machine that did what it should not be able to do....lose weight. The government clamped a lid on the whole thing shortly after that as all parties to the affair seemed to drop out of sight. It was'nt until the Army announced its new 122mm high speed main armament as a 'Davis Gun' that I surmised the truth more than 25 years after the fact. It would take a Davis effect in order for an armor piercing shell to penetrate heavy armor. You use a hammer and hardened nails to nail a piece of wood to a concrete wall and all you get will be spalled concrete under the nail.........if you are lucky. If not you will get a bent nail, spalled concrete, and a very sore thumb and chips in your eye. Now us a 'Ramset gun', and you will nail the wood to the concrete very nicely. That is Davis in action again. The government was not interested in the tinkerers experiment, but certainly was interested in a principal that could be used in a weapon for war. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 19:53:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA07338; Sun, 20 May 2001 19:53:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:53:04 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 22:56:36 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052022563604.00882@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA07311 Resent-Message-ID: <"MLbLU3.0.Yo1.GC82x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42701 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 20 May 2001 07:18, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >Mitchell Jones wrote > >> > > >> >Rick wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Regarding the "mysterious force" slowing down distant spacecraft, > >> >> could gravitational field divergence be playing some role? I realize > >> >> that this all arises out of doppler shift, so that might be the > >> >> problem right there. Ross T. thinks it's aether flow. > >> > >> Fred Sparber wrote: > >> > > >> >Most likely a pull from the Solar System-Kuiper Belt (10-100 AU) mass. > >> > >> ***{Ten AU would place Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto in the Kuiper > >> belt. However, according to *The Facts on File Dictionary of Astronomy*, > >> pg. 244, the Kuiper belt extends from 35 to 100 AU. --MJ}*** > >> > >> It's about 78 > >> >AU out now. Should speed up as it gets closer to the ~ 50,000 AU Oort > >>Cloud. > >> > >> ***{Here is a description of the so called "Pioneer anomaly": > >> > >> "ANOMALOUS GRAVITATIONAL FORCE? A discussion of this phenomenon appears in > >> the 4 October 1999 issue of Newsweek magazine (See also the December 1998 > >> issue of Scientific American.) The mystery of the tiny unexplained > >> acceleration towards the sun in the motion of the Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11 > >> and Ulysses spacecraft remains unexplained. A team of planetary scientists > >> and physicists led by John Anderson (Pioneer 10 Principal Investigator for > >> Celestial Mechanics) has identified a tiny unexplained acceleration towards > >> the sun in the motion of the Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, and Ulysses > >> spacecraft. The anomalous acceleration - about 10 billion times smaller > >> than the acceleration we feel from Earth's gravitational pull - was > >> identified after detailed analyses of radio data from the spacecraft. A > >> variety of possible causes were considered including: perturbations from > >> the gravitational attraction of planets and smaller bodies in the solar > >> system; radiation pressure, the tiny transfer of momentum when photons > >> impact the spacecraft; general relativity; interactions between the solar > >> wind and the spacecraft; possible corruption to the radio Doppler data; > >> wobbles and other changes in Earth's rotation; outgassing or thermal > >> radiation from the spacecraft; and the possible influence of non-ordinary > >> or dark matter. After exhausting the list of explanations deemed most > >> plausible, the researchers examined possible modification to the force of > >> gravity as explained by Newton's law with the sun being the dominant > >> gravitational force. "Clearly, more analysis, observation, and theoretical > >> work are called for," the researchers concluded. The scientists expect the > >> explanation when found will involve conventional physics." (See > >> http://spaceprojects.arc.nasa.gov/Space_Projects/pioneer/PNStat.html.) > >> > >> Since the anomaly applies to the Ulysses space probe, which is far outside > >> the planetary disc in a polar orbit around the sun, the Kuiper belt > >> explanation fails. (See http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/.) > >> > >> --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > >Since the Pioneer 10 is now ~7.1 x 10^9 miles (~ 1.14 x 10^13 meters) from > >the Sun > >the Solar system-Kuiper Belt pull is 6.67E-11*2.2E30 kg*260 kg/(1.14E13)^2 > >equal 1.12E-6 (newtons). > > > >Plenty of force F to give it a "minute acceleration" a = 1.12E-6/260 = 5.1E-9 > >meters/sec^2 toward the Sun. > > > >No? > > ***{For a space probe that, like Pioneer, is moving outward through the > planetary disc, with the center of mass of the Kuiper belt behind it, there > would be a tug backwards, tending to slow it down. However, my > understanding is that the Ulysses probe is not in the plane of the > planetary disc. Instead, it was launched in a trajectory perpendicular to > that disc, so that it would go into a polar orbit around the sun. Result: > it has never been anywhere near the Kuiper belt. Thus the only tug it could > have received to slow it down would have been from the mass of the > planetary disc itself, and that tug would have begun to speed it up as soon > as it crossed the polar axis of the sun and began heading back toward the > planetary disc again. Now, granted, I don't know whether Ulysses has > crossed the polar axis of the sun yet, and so I don't know whether it has > ceased to be slowed by the anomaly and has begun to be speed up by it. Thus > I can't say for sure that an explanation similar to your idea is not > operating. All I am saying is that if Ulysses is being slowed by the tug of > a mass, it isn't coming primarily from the Kuiper belt, because it never > passed through the Kuiper belt, or anywhere near it, as far as I can tell. > --MJ}*** > > > > >Regards, Frederick > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers Suppose our sun has an unseen companion, a brown dwarf or burned out star? Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 19:59:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA08935; Sun, 20 May 2001 19:57:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:57:35 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010520215820.00c2cbd0@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 21:59:45 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Lightspeed (photonic boom?) In-Reply-To: <01052022521903.00882@linux> References: <4.2.0.58.20010517120137.00967990@postoffice.swbell.net> <4.2.0.58.20010517120137.00967990@postoffice.swbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"NPQP_3.0.QB2.VG82x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42702 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:52 PM 5/20/01 -0700, you wrote: >waves that would theoretically tear apart any craft that attempted >to do it. This is similar to what you state concerning light in saying that >the fabric of space would set up a similar shock wave. > I refuse to accept on blind faith the preposition of space >bound up with light in such a manner. Light is just energy. No one >has ever seen a photon. We only really infer the presence of Yes.. In my case here this was blind conjecture. Please don't use this to do anything but ponder. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 20:10:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA11498; Sun, 20 May 2001 20:06:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 20:06:06 -0700 Message-ID: <01c101c0e19a$553195a0$8eb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <01052022563604.00882@linux> Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 21:04:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ymLnB1.0.ap2.UO82x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42703 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" To: Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 12:56 AM Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Standing Bare wrote: > > Suppose our sun has an unseen companion, a brown dwarf or burned out > star? A companion star for our sun has been proposed. It might be so cold that even the Hubble might miss it. Regards, Frederick > > Standing Bear > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 23:06:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA24832; Sun, 20 May 2001 23:05:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 23:05:36 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Ok, pick this apart Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:05:00 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA24803 Resent-Message-ID: <"Kx1Gm1.0.r36.m0B2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42704 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/Magnetic-mass.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 20 23:29:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA29016; Sun, 20 May 2001 23:27:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 23:27:25 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:26:50 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <98dhgt4219if9rr2oufbrt33kp39u1fce2@4ax.com> References: <01052022563604.00882@linux> In-Reply-To: <01052022563604.00882@linux> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA28982 Resent-Message-ID: <"kU7wt1.0.E57.BLB2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42705 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Standing Bear's message of Sun, 20 May 2001 22:56:36 -0700: [snip] >Suppose our sun has an unseen companion, a brown dwarf or burned out >star? [snip] Or another large planet? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 08:13:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14235; Mon, 21 May 2001 08:08:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:08:18 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010521101908.028bb050@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:08:09 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing In-Reply-To: <002601c0e0b1$5c5e6fe0$8dc21004@hppav> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"sS-4D1.0.JU3.XzI2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42706 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff Kooistra wrote: >Jed wouldn't believe in Black Helicopters if >one plucked him out of his back yard . . . As it happens, the government does run helicopters over my summer house back yard, from a top-secret cold war doomsday installation. This is the real thing, the stuff of conspiracy theory paranoia. Until six months ago when the New York Times blabbed about the installation, it was a secret and nobody I know discussed it, although we all knew about it. (The Times reporter, I am happy to say, was arrested for trespassing.) At long last, Now It Can Be Told, see: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/raven_rock.htm >and there is certainly no point in >trying to convince him that now and then the government does mean things to >its own citizens. Oh come now. I have been attacking the government's energy policies and the hot fusion program for years. I was good friends with prominent Japanese American citizens who lost everything in WWII. The government stole their property and locked them up in camps in the desert. They remained patriotic and they supported the government despite everything, and their sons fought for the U.S. The rest of us should learn a lesson from them. >OK, so you should apply for a patent even thought the P.O. by law can't give >you one. Ah, but if you bring a working model, then they'll have to give >you one. Right. That happens all the time with controversial inventions other than perpetual motion machines. You reserve your rights with the application, and years later when you prove your point, the government grants the patent. The government never hands out a patent easily. It always contests claims. That's a good thing, considering how many nuisance patents and baseless patents have been applied for. > Yes, this course of action worked so well for Pons and >Fleischmann. Pons and Fleischmann would have gotten a patent, but at the last minute, when they had no more money left, CETI torpedoed them. The government did not oppose them to an unusual extent, and it granted several other cold fusion patents to CETI. Many other CF patents would have been granted if the applicants had not been so confrontational and irrational. Most of the ones I have seen which were not granted had no merit anyway. > Unfortunately, you also have to prove your working model isn't >a trick, which is not easy to do when you're confronted with types who will >no doubt accuse you of either lying or being given to hallucinations. It would be dead simple to prove that a working model is no trick. If I had a few dozen machines, I could convince the whole world in six months. If CF devices could be made robust enough to demonstrate reliably, the opposition would vanish. History is full of examples of machines, discoveries and inventions which everyone thought was impossible, yet which once revealed, quickly convinced everyone. The most recent example is cloning mammals. > You >can actually get a patent if you obfuscate your claims a bit--this is how >Roy Shelton managed to get a patent on a Newman device even though he had no >working model. Exactly! That is how CETI did it too. So why not learn from their example? People were saying that is how it should be done back in 1989. > > > I keep telling them to have a camera ready > > >but they say the film gets confiscated. > > > > How convenient! > >Well, duh, Jed. If we grant the premise of a raid, then the raiders would >know enough to look for cameras and confiscate film, and likely cameras, >too. Oh, right. And the government has done a fabulous job covering up all of its other secrets, snafus, raids, outrages, and lawbreaking. Ten minutes after the Elian raid in Florida there were photos of armed government agents inside the house on every television in the world. There is no organization on earth watched more closely than the Federal Government. Even local police cannot beat up a suspect any more without a video showing up on the 5:00 local news. Furthermore, there has never been a time in all history when it was easier to safeguard information, circulate it, or avoid censorship. If a perpetual motion machine inventor has any sense, he will keep computer files describing his invention on back-up disks somewhere off-site, away from his house. It is common knowledge that you should do this in case of fire, flood or thieves. Backup disks (CD-ROMs) are small and easily hidden. The government cannot find them all. An inventor who was determined to get the secret out and avoid censorship could put a complete description and photos of the device on Internet. In one day, thousands or even millions of people worldwide could have a copy. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 09:09:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03829; Mon, 21 May 2001 09:05:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 09:05:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3B092FB6.B4ACC2B8@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 09:10:00 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010521101908.028bb050@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UUSs-2.0.lx.CpJ2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42709 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Pons and Fleischmann would have gotten a patent, but at the last minute, > when they had no more money left, CETI torpedoed them. The government did > not oppose them to an unusual extent, and it granted several other cold > fusion patents to CETI. Many other CF patents would have been granted if > the applicants had not been so confrontational and irrational. Most of the > ones I have seen which were not granted had no merit anyway. I would like to correct this one point, Jed. I was a director at ENECO when they were trying to get a patent for the P-F effect. ENECO met each challenge the Patent Office sent with a detailed rebuttal and each time the PO would respond as if they had never read the information. ENECO went the whole nine yards, all the way to District Court, when they ran out of money. CETI got their patents by avoiding the nuclear division of the PO and these patents were a major embarrassment to the PO, although the experience had no effect. The fact that CETI brought a challenge to the international patent had no effect on the issue with the US Patent office. The nuclear division has yet to issue a single patent even though over 300 have been submitted and even though several Congressman have applied pressure. The response is (paraphrased), we are an independent agency, we are doing our duty, so mind your own business. The response is totally irrational and makes one wonder just what is the reason behind the action. On the other hand, most of the patent applications, including the P-F application, I have read are poorly written, poorly understood, and a waste of time. If CANR ever becomes commercial, it will do so without patent protection. Because most people have no idea how it works and how to duplicate a successful process, a patent will be unnecessary, at least at first. Getting a patent at this time is mainly for PR purposes, something that is not unimportant. > > > > Unfortunately, you also have to prove your working model isn't > >a trick, which is not easy to do when you're confronted with types who will > >no doubt accuse you of either lying or being given to hallucinations. > > It would be dead simple to prove that a working model is no trick. If I had > a few dozen machines, I could convince the whole world in six months. If CF > devices could be made robust enough to demonstrate reliably, the opposition > would vanish. History is full of examples of machines, discoveries and > inventions which everyone thought was impossible, yet which once revealed, > quickly convinced everyone. The most recent example is cloning mammals. CETI offered to demonstrate a working cell producing excess energy and the PO refused to examine it. Whether the cell actually made energy can be debated. The fact is that the PO never tried to find out. > > > > You > >can actually get a patent if you obfuscate your claims a bit--this is how > >Roy Shelton managed to get a patent on a Newman device even though he had no > >working model. > > Exactly! That is how CETI did it too. So why not learn from their example? > People were saying that is how it should be done back in 1989. CETI got a patent only because they went though the chemical division where Patterson was known. In addition, he had a very good attorney. His application would have been denied had he gone through the nuclear division, as was later stated. The system is far from ideal or even consistent with the law. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 09:09:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA00874; Mon, 21 May 2001 08:58:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:58:02 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B08255A.275BD8D3@ix.netcom.com> References: Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:55:38 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind Resent-Message-ID: <"0ust41.0.MD.9iJ2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42707 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >The problem, Mitchell, is in your assumptions. The logic is fine. You need to >demonstrate that the assumptions apply to the real world using observation, >not logic. > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> I would like to sum up the position I have been advocating in this thread, >> for the benefit of any newcomers who may find the recent posts a bit >> confusing. The logic I have been using runs as follows: >> >> (1) It seems *crystal clear* that, out of the infinitude of details that >> comprise an individual human being, some are essential to his continued >> presence in this world, and some are not. A person can, for example, get a >> haircut and remain in the world, but if he gets the top of his head chopped >> off down to the eyeballs, he is out of here. :-) > >This statement is too simplistic to be an argument. ***{Perhaps that's because it is not an argument, but a statement of fact. :-) --MJ}*** The question is, "Can a >person continue to be in this world (alive) while losing so much of his >essence that he is no longer recognized as the previous person? The answer is >yes. ***{The body can obviously remain alive long after the *person*--the mind, the stream of consciousness--has departed. But why would we care about that? We are not discussing the difficulties associated with deciding when to pronounce someone dead. We are trying to decide whether sound reasons exist for believing that a person's stream of consciousness will resume, in some distant place and time, after his death. To that end, it is useful to note the obvious: that there are conditions which must be satisfied to ensure the continuation of each individual stream of consciousness, and that when they cease to be satisfied, that stream of consciousness ends. The question of whether external observers can always tell *when* it ended (they can't) is manifestly irrelevant. --MJ}*** Therefore, our "essence" depends on our physical body which is not >recreated in the next life. ***{Each individual stream of consciousness is a phenomenon, not an object, and, like all phenomena, it requires a physical embodiment, but does not require any embodiment in particular. The fact, for example, that you are boiling water in a test tube today does not mean you cannot boil it in a coffee pot tomorrow. --MJ}*** It is a big assumption to propose that a physical >body containing all of the parts needed to define your essence at the time of >death will be recreated. ***{Why? All that is needed is to reproduce your understandings in a body that can act and think in accordance with their dictates. Given the magnitude of the universe and the teeming multitudes of life forms that are coming into the world every second, it looks like a sure bet to me! --MJ}*** >> (2) Since, out of the vast multitudes of new life forms that came into the >> world before we did, none were us, it seems clear that there were >> conditions that needed to be satisfied, in order to bring us into the >> world. What conditions? Logically, the conditions defined in (1), above--to >> wit: when the conditions that were necessary to keep us in the world first >> began to be satisfied, we came into the world. > >This also is too simplest. Obviously, all things, rocks and humans, only >exist when their characteristics exist. A rock would not be a rock unless it >had the properties we define as a rock. Likewise, we have defined ourselves >as human. The fact that we are aware of being human and different from a dog, >for example, means nothing. A dog also knows he is different than us. >Whatever form we came as, we would define it as our characteristic. There is >nothing unique in this process. It is a false assumption to hold this process >as being unique. ***{Again, this isn't about what people think, or about what they recognize, or about how they define words. It is simply a fact that the continuation of a stream of consciousness is dependent on a very specific set of conditions being satisfied in the physical world, and it would remain a fact whether we recognized it or not, and irregardless of how often we redefined the words we were using to convey it. --MJ}*** >> (3) Since, after we die, the same situation which pertained before we were >> born is restored--i.e., we do not exist in the physical world--it clearly >> seems to follow that, if the conditions that brought us into the world >> before are once again satisfied, we will come into the world again. > >This big assumption is at the heart of the argument. What happens when the >exact conditions of your creation are satisfied before you die? Does another >"you" exist? ***{Good. I have been hoping that the discussion would eventually begin to focus on these sorts of questions. They are, indeed, indeed, the heart of the argument. The answer is that it would be another person whose mind operated in a similar way, but it would not be you, for several reasons: (1) The understandings that a person has when he comes into the world are modified as a result of experience and thought: people change. Result: the first person into the world with a given set of characteristics will already be a bit different by the time a second person comes into the world with those characteristics. Hence they will be two, not one. (2) Since the brain of the first person into the world with a set of characteristics bears no neural connections to the sense organs of the second person who comes into the world with those characteristics, the two streams of consciousness are irreducibly separate. Neither can see out of the eyes of the other, and so they are two, not one. (3) Once a stream of consciousness finds physical embodiment in an object (i.e., a physical body) it becomes subject to the laws that apply to all objects--for example: no object can be in two places at once. Since the two streams of consciousness occupy physical bodies that are separated by space, they are two, not one. --Mitchell Jones}*** What happens when both of the "you" dies and the exact conditions >are again created? Which "you" gets to be reborn? ***{For the reasons given above, they would be two, not one. Hence both would get to be reborn. --MJ}*** You see, your assumption >creates a logical nightmare which I expect you will try to resolve by creating >more assumptions. ***{The three statements listed above are facts, not assumptions, and they deal adequately with the question you raised. Many months ago, however, my wife raised a different question: what happens after your death if many individual beings, at different locations scattered about the universe, appear *simultaneously* that have your characteristics? Which one becomes you, how is that decided, and what happens to the ones that do *not* become you? My guess is that absolute simultaneity is impossible--which means: no matter how close together in time the appearances of the various beings bearing your characteristics may be, one of them will be first, and that one will be you. As for what happens to the others, my guess is that the process of embryonic development continues in each of them, until their understandings have changed enough so that the stream of consciousness of some other dead person very similar to you, yet a tad different, resumes at that location. More important, however, is this: the way such questions get resolved doesn't matter. Why not? Because the core fact is this: for every phenomenon, there is a set of conditions that must be satisfied in order to bring it into the physical world and to keep it here. When they cease to be met, it will make its exit; and when they are met again, it will reappear. This is simply the way the world works. In the case of a phenomenon which we do not experience directly, such as cold fusion, the question of whether it has ever actually been in the world is legitimate. An experiment that seemed to show excess heat, for example, may have simply been misinterpreted. There may have been a subtle error that the experimenter missed. Note, however, that *if* the phenomenon has, in fact, taken place once, then we *know* that if the conditions are met again, it will take place again. The sole area of uncertainty, in short, has to do with whether it has taken place once--which means: is it possible? Once we *know* it has taken place, then we know with utter certainty that (a) conditions exist that, when satisfied, will bring it into the world; (b) so long as those conditions are satisfied, it will remain in the world; (c) when they cease to be satisfied, it will leave the world; and (d) when they are again satisfied at a later date, it will reappear. Most importantly, note that it is the uncertainty about whether cold fusion is possible--i.e., whether it has ever taken place--that leads to the significance of questions such as "Why haven't the experimenters been fried by gamma rays?" or "How was the Coulomb barrier overcome, thereby permitting the nuclei to fuse?" We are disturbed by such questions solely because we do not really know, for a fact, that cold fusion is real. If we *did* know it to be real, then in response to such questions we would simply say: "I can't answer that right now. That is a matter requiring further investigation." Insofar as the phenomenon of individual consciousness is concerned, however, we all know it is real, because we all experience it directly. It is not like cold fusion, where we look at it from the outside, and wonder if, due to error, our interpretation may be wrong. We *know* we are conscious. Thus we *know* our consciousness is possible. Result: we *know* that there are conditions which (a) if satisfied, bring us into the world, (b) so long as they continue to be satisfied, keep us in the world, (c) when they cease to be satisfied, result in our exiting the world; and (d) if satisfied again, will bring us into the world again. It is my contention that, because we *know* that the phenomenon of individual consciousness is real, we do not have to be able to answer every single, solitary question that anyone can ask about it, in order to expect that, after we die, we will live again. Instead, we merely need to identify in general terms the nature of the conditions that have to be satisfied--to wit: our understandings must be present in a brain capable of thinking and acting in accordance with them--and identify in general terms some real mechanism capable of recreating those conditions--to wit: Darwinian natural selection--and we are then justified in believing that, after our deaths, we will live again. Bottom line: we all *know* that the phenomenon of individual consciousness is real, because we all experience it directly. That awareness is the bedrock metaphysical fact upon which the entire structure of human knowledge rests, including knowledge of life after death. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> (4) Since the traits that define each unique stream of consciousness >> obviously have to do with the unique way in which that being will respond >> to stimuli, which are determined by that being's understanding of the >> world, and since each new being which comes into the world receives a >> genetically encoded set of understandings, courtesy of natural selection, >> and since natural selection operates throughout the universe, it seems >> clearly to follow that eventually, somewhere in this gigantic universe, the >> traits defining a person's stream of consciousness at the time of his death >> will appear again, as part of the genetically encoded understandings of a >> new infant. Thus it seems crystal clear that, like it or not, after we die >> we will eventually live again. > >This is rather like the argument that if enough monkeys were given >typewriters, sooner or later they would write all of the world's literature. ***{Real monkeys would, of course, get bored long before they banged randomly on the keys of a typewriter long enough to, by chance, produce the works of Shakespeare. Darwinian natural selection, however, is a law of nature, and laws of nature do not get bored. They just keep on operating, grinding out their effects, forever and ever. Thus your analogy fails. --MJ}*** >The argument rests on the false assumption that the world as we know it will >always be the same ***{The assumption is that the laws of nature will continue to operate in the future as they have in the past. This is just the familiar principle of induction, upon which all of science rests, and which cannot be denied by anyone who claims to be a scientist. (Do you deny it? :-) --MJ}*** and that the past and the future depend on a chance >combination of known events. ***{As I have pointed out to you before, these outcomes are not a matter of pure chance. The understandings that people acquire serve a hoped-for instrumental purpose: to enable them to succeed in the world. However, definitions of "success" vary, depending on the understandings by which an individual confronts the world. Earth humans, for the most part, see success in terms of spouting the types of socially expedient BS that will grease their interpersonal relationships. As a result, they avoid believing truths which their "significant others" will get bent out of shape about. A few, however, define "success" to mean *finding the truth about the world*, regardless of whether the truth will grease one's social relationships or not. And, interestingly, logic tells us that such an attitude will maximally grease social relationships, in the more advanced cultures that exist in the universe, even though they lead to conflict on this pathetic backwater world. Result: the person who chooses to know the truth can reasonably expect that, when he dies, there will be many cultures where infants are coming into the world with understandings similar to those he held at the time of his death, and, thus, that the conditions necessary to bring him back into the world will recur. For the person who fills his head with socially expedient misunderstandings, however, things are different: the response tendencies that he exhibits at his death are much less tied to reality, and much more closely connected to the accidents of culture on a particular world, and hence are much less likely to be replicated in the future. By fitting in with a mindless culture, in short, he risks "the big sleep." :-) --MJ}*** > >If there is a fly in this ointment, what is it? > >I suggest the argument is full of flies. ***{There ain't no steenking flies in my ointment! :-) --MJ}*** Nevertheless, this has been a very >interesting and educational discussion. ***{Indeed so, as I had hoped. We finally, at the end, got deeply into the issue that I had hoped to discuss from the beginning. I kept trying to steer you in this direction, but you kept dwelling on ghosts and Sai Baba, since you had an agenda of your own. That's why these sorts of discussions are a sort of trade: each party consents to discuss, to a degree, things in which he is not really interested, in order to have an opportunity to discuss the things in which he really *is* interested. Thus I wasn't really interested in ghosts or Sai Baba, and you weren't really interested in my particular brand of rationalistic metaphysics, and yet, somehow, it all seems to have worked out. --MJ}*** It has helped me clarify my beliefs >even though I'm sure it has changed few minds. ***{In the sense of causing people to openly state: "My opinion has changed about such-and-such," you are doubtlessly correct. However, it is my experience that *every* reasoned exchange alters the understandings of *all* participants, whether anybody admits it or not, and, indeed, regardless of whether they are aware of the specifics of what has changed. The reason: every new truth which you grasp alters your understandings, hence what you are, in a quite irreversible way. That is why argumentation, when done in a civil manner, is the most efficient mechanism for intellectual advancement that there is. In fact, if the so called "educational" system could be abolished and everybody could be persuaded to argue on the internet instead, it would save the world. Unfortunately, evil is entrenched, and that outcome is simply impossible. Result: there is an excellent chance that the world will, sometime in the 21st century, sink into a dark age--and possibly one from which it will never recover. --MJ}*** >Regards, >Ed ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 09:14:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03467; Mon, 21 May 2001 09:04:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 09:04:19 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <98dhgt4219if9rr2oufbrt33kp39u1fce2@4ax.com> References: <01052022563604.00882@linux> <01052022563604.00882@linux> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:02:42 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"oI25p1.0.0s.3oJ2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42708 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In reply to Standing Bear's message of Sun, 20 May 2001 22:56:36 -0700: >[snip] >>Suppose our sun has an unseen companion, a brown dwarf or burned out >>star? >[snip] >Or another large planet? ***{There are three space probes that show the anomalous slowing-down of their motion: Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, and Ulysses. Since they are all moving in different directions, and not from a common center, how can the unknown object be behind each of them without being in several places at once? --MJ}*** >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see >http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 11:17:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA19952; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:08:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:08:48 -0700 Message-ID: <002101c0e218$6e378a40$e68f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" Subject: Re: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:05:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"LzY6T3.0.at4.lcL2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42710 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Anonymous wrote: > >Tesla's "solar panel" is just a shiny metal plate with a transparent coating of some >insulating material which today could be a spray plastic. > The "shiny metal plate" could be galvanized roofing panels electrically tied together and laid on insulating urethane furring strips on your roof. With the "Fair Weather Field" running about 170 volts/meter, if your roof is 5 meters high that would get you up to around 850 volts. > >Wire it to one side of a capacitor, the other going to a good earth ground. > Since energy, W stored is 1/2CV^2 a 10 microfarad capacitor at 1,000 volts will store: 0.5*10^-5*10^6 = 5.0 joules > >Connect the capacitor across some sort of switching device so that it can >be discharges at rhythmic intervals. > If you dump the 5 joules through a matched load at 10 times/second you get 50 watts. > >The bigger the area of the insulated plate, the more energy you get. > Or the more voltage on the capacitor, and the more capacitance. Assume "Small Ions" or Light Leptons in the atmosphere that Cannot Flow into the Plate-Capacitor-Load, are biasing the plate such that Regular Electrons can flow out of earth ground to charge the capacitor.... Since the Sun is responsible for the Ionosphere and Fair Weather Field and the Small Ions and/or Light Leptons. This "Free-Energy Receiver" is a Solar Powered System that may rival Hydropower or Windpower in Simplicity. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 12:15:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13958; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:08:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:08:03 -0700 Message-ID: <003901c0e220$b5436e60$e68f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:05:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0E1F6.C15436A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZW7FB1.0.vP3.JUM2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42712 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0E1F6.C15436A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well now. What's going on out there? http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0E1F6.C15436A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - Puzzling hyper-gravity proves weighty mystery - May 21, 2001.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - Puzzling hyper-gravity proves weighty mystery - May 21, 2001.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html [DOC#35] BASEURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html ORIGURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html Modified=406AF45020E2C001B1 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0E1F6.C15436A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 12:17:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA11672; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:01:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:01:31 -0700 Message-ID: <003401c0e21f$c60bcea0$e68f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" Subject: Re: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:58:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0E1F5.CC4847A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"-fBxr1.0.Gs2.AOM2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42711 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0E1F5.CC4847A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0E1F5.CC4847A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0E1F5.CC4847A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Field mill data - 03 Dec 95 Field mill data - 03 Dec 95 (http://olympic.atmos.colostate.edu/~carey/03Dec95fm.html) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0E1F5.CC4847A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Field mill data - 03 Dec 95
 

Field mill data - 03 Dec 95

(http://olympic.atmos.colostate.edu/~carey/03Dec95fm.html)

=20

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smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15999; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:13:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:13:28 -0700 Message-ID: <004c01c0e221$72852360$e68f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" Subject: Re: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:11:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C0E1F7.8522DC80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"3e7DY1.0.rv3.OZM2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42714 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C0E1F7.8522DC80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C0E1F7.8522DC80" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C0E1F7.8522DC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Field mill data - 04 Dec 95 Field mill data - 04 Dec 95 (http://olympic.atmos.colostate.edu/~carey/04Dec95fm.html) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C0E1F7.8522DC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Field mill data - 04 Dec 95
 

Field mill data - 04 Dec 95

(http://olympic.atmos.colostate.edu/~carey/04Dec95fm.html)

=20

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------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C0E1F7.8522DC80-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 12:18:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA14650; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:09:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:09:38 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:15:10 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <002101c0e218$6e378a40$e68f85ce@computer> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"wJEKI2.0.qa3.oVM2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42713 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Fred. Having done these types of experiments about 10 years ago, I recollect that although it is indeed possible to generate power with this type of circuit it's not nearly as peachy as you predict. Generally, charging currents are TINY so rep rate was pretty low, in fact one would get more power for synchronously rectifying the AC signals than just discharging the accumulated DC. On the other hand, when weather conditions turned stormy one could get down-right dangerous conditions in the circuit. In the extreme case, you'd take a lightning strike. Otherwise, expect a great deal of sparking and destroyed electronics. This is hardly new, most Hams have a story or two about getting big shocks from working with antennas. The more curious of these folks even try to arrange some kind of recification system and a battery. It works, after a fashion. The big problem is the huge variation in possible energies in the circuit. I think most people just put a spark gap across the sensitive part of the collector and if things get to nasty you just discharge the rest of the energy to ground. But this defeats the purpose of the device... This is akin to trying to build an efficient water wheel to take power from a stream which varies from an elephant piddling to the Amazon river. Of course with sufficient Will it's an achievable goal, at least I thought so back then... I don't quite see what this has to do with Tesla, or light leptons for that matter, but then who am I to say, I just build stuff (smile). By the way, that business about "nutrinos" and 1200watt waffle irons would be just marginally more believable if the author learned how to spell neutrino. Just marginally. K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 1:06 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Anonymous wrote: > >Tesla's "solar panel" is just a shiny metal plate with a transparent coating of some >insulating material which today could be a spray plastic. > The "shiny metal plate" could be galvanized roofing panels electrically tied together and laid on insulating urethane furring strips on your roof. With the "Fair Weather Field" running about 170 volts/meter, if your roof is 5 meters high that would get you up to around 850 volts. > >Wire it to one side of a capacitor, the other going to a good earth ground. > Since energy, W stored is 1/2CV^2 a 10 microfarad capacitor at 1,000 volts will store: 0.5*10^-5*10^6 = 5.0 joules > >Connect the capacitor across some sort of switching device so that it can >be discharges at rhythmic intervals. > If you dump the 5 joules through a matched load at 10 times/second you get 50 watts. > >The bigger the area of the insulated plate, the more energy you get. > Or the more voltage on the capacitor, and the more capacitance. Assume "Small Ions" or Light Leptons in the atmosphere that Cannot Flow into the Plate-Capacitor-Load, are biasing the plate such that Regular Electrons can flow out of earth ground to charge the capacitor.... Since the Sun is responsible for the Ionosphere and Fair Weather Field and the Small Ions and/or Light Leptons. This "Free-Energy Receiver" is a Solar Powered System that may rival Hydropower or Windpower in Simplicity. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 12:41:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24553; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:30:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:30:54 -0700 Message-ID: <006601c0e223$e7841660$e68f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" References: Subject: Re: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:28:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"SxoUn.0.Z_5.kpM2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42715 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: RE: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla I believe you, Keith. Especially since on summer nights I can see the lightning activity at the Langmuir Lab on top of a > 10,500 ft mountain about 40 miles away as the crow flys. (east of the VLA) C.B."Charlie" Moore a professor at New Mexico Tech ran the lab up until a few years ago. I accepted his invite to visit in 1984. Harrowing experience driving up there, and white-knuckle driving back down after I found that my brakes wouldn't hold if I got up past 7 mph. :-) Look at the CSU Field mill data I posted. Regards, Frederick > Hi Fred. > > Having done these types of experiments about 10 years ago, > I recollect that although it is indeed possible to generate > power with this type of circuit it's not nearly as peachy > as you predict. Generally, charging currents are TINY so > rep rate was pretty low, in fact one would get more power > for synchronously rectifying the AC signals than just discharging > the accumulated DC. > > On the other hand, when weather conditions turned stormy > one could get down-right dangerous conditions in the circuit. > In the extreme case, you'd take a lightning strike. Otherwise, > expect a great deal of sparking and destroyed electronics. > This is hardly new, most Hams have a story or two about getting > big shocks from working with antennas. The more curious of > these folks even try to arrange some kind of recification > system and a battery. It works, after a fashion. The big > problem is the huge variation in possible energies in the > circuit. I think most people just put a spark gap across > the sensitive part of the collector and if things get > to nasty you just discharge the rest of the energy to > ground. But this defeats the purpose of the device... > This is akin to trying to build an efficient water wheel to take > power from a stream which varies from an elephant piddling > to the Amazon river. Of course with sufficient Will > it's an achievable goal, at least I thought so back > then... > > I don't quite see what this has to do with Tesla, or light > leptons for that matter, but then who am I to say, I just > build stuff (smile). > > By the way, that business about "nutrinos" and 1200watt > waffle irons would be just marginally more believable > if the author learned how to spell neutrino. Just marginally. > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 1:06 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Cc: Colin Quinney > Subject: Re: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla > > > Anonymous wrote: > > > >Tesla's "solar panel" is just a shiny metal plate with a transparent > coating of some > >insulating material which today could be a spray plastic. > > > The "shiny metal plate" could be galvanized roofing panels electrically tied > together > and laid on insulating urethane furring strips on your roof. > > With the "Fair Weather Field" running about 170 volts/meter, if your roof is > 5 > meters high that would get you up to around 850 volts. > > > >Wire it to one side of a capacitor, the other going to a good earth ground. > > > Since energy, W stored is 1/2CV^2 a 10 microfarad capacitor at 1,000 volts > will store: 0.5*10^-5*10^6 = 5.0 joules > > > >Connect the capacitor across some sort of switching device so that it can > >be discharges at rhythmic intervals. > > > If you dump the 5 joules through a matched load at 10 times/second you > get 50 watts. > > > >The bigger the area of the insulated plate, the more energy you get. > > > Or the more voltage on the capacitor, and the more capacitance. > > Assume "Small Ions" or Light Leptons in the atmosphere that Cannot Flow into > the > Plate-Capacitor-Load, are biasing the plate such that Regular Electrons can > flow out of earth ground to charge the capacitor.... > > Since the Sun is responsible for the Ionosphere and Fair Weather Field and > the Small Ions and/or Light Leptons. This "Free-Energy Receiver" is a > Solar Powered System that may rival Hydropower or Windpower in Simplicity. > > Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 12:42:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA28257; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:38:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:38:40 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:45:08 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex cc: Schnurer Subject: GRAVITY About..... Equipment Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"_WNlF1.0.Rv6._wM2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42716 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., Many persons ahve been following the work of Fran Aquino. I observed what appeared to be a significant error in the replications of his work. I posted several times in open forum about this error. There was no information leading me to believe the error was corrected in the replications. In an attempt to correct this error I wrote to Fran Aquino. Fran was kind enough to help all parties and confirm the correct manner and protocol for this aspect of the work: ============== To Aquino: Dear Fran, A lot of work has been done where people have tried to make your device, but are not measuring where you are, and because of this they are trying to pass 10 and 100 amps through copper wire load. They did not understand you measure the primary. In the interest of correcting the error, may I have your permission to post this correction, as it appears in your letter to me about it? I will remove the details of your E mail address to help preserve your privacy Thank you, John On Wed, 16 May 2001, Fran De Aquino wrote: > > -----Mensagem original----- > De: John Schnurer > Para: Fran De Aquino > Data: 15 de Maio de 2001 23:53 > Assunto: Re: En: Equipment > > > Dear John, > Answers below. > > In your opinion to measure the low frequency to an output element, > would you measure the primary of the transformer ? > > A: Yes > > It seems this way you would not be loading the antenna or radiator > part of the set up. Is this where you made your measures? > > > A: Exactly > > Best regards > Fran -------------------------- Dear Folks: Did everyone understand this and its impact on the replication? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 12:44:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29363; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:40:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:40:34 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010521150104.02933060@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:40:27 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: ENECO patent and CETI - mea culpa In-Reply-To: <3B092FB6.B4ACC2B8@ix.netcom.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010521101908.028bb050@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"clpc71.0.iA7.nyM2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42717 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >I would like to correct this one point, Jed. I was a director at ENECO when >they were trying to get a patent for the P-F effect. ENECO met each challenge >the Patent Office sent with a detailed rebuttal and each time the PO would >respond as if they had never read the information. ENECO went the whole nine >yards, all the way to District Court, when they ran out of money. CETI got >their patents by avoiding the nuclear division of the PO and these patents >were >a major embarrassment to the PO, although the experience had no effect. The >fact that CETI brought a challenge to the international patent had no >effect on >the issue with the US Patent office. Oh, I am sorry! As I understood it, CETI derailed the U.S. patent at the last minute with a challenge. I must have misunderstood; I am sure Ed's version is correct. I apologize for spreading misinformation. I do not mean to defend the P.O., but people who hold patents in other things tell similar stories. Every time you deal with the P.O. they go back to square one. Perhaps they are merely treating CF patent applicants the way they treat everyone else. >On the other hand, most of the patent applications, >including the P-F application, I have read are poorly written, poorly >understood, and a waste of time. Well, they shouldn't grant a patent for such applications, after all. In such cases they are doing their job, we must admit. > If CANR ever becomes commercial, it will do so >without patent protection. Because most people have no idea how it works and >how to duplicate a successful process, a patent will be unnecessary, at >least at >first. Getting a patent at this time is mainly for PR purposes, something >that >is not unimportant. It seems that many venture capitalists demand a patent. I have always thought they are overrated, although some patents are a gold mine. Take the patent for Viagra. Evidently it is specific, without precedent and easy to defend. It is held by a large, established corporation with an experienced legal department. That makes it a license to print money! A vague CF patent held by a private individual would be a different story. >CETI offered to demonstrate a working cell producing excess energy and the PO >refused to examine it. Whether the cell actually made energy can be debated. >The fact is that the PO never tried to find out. I was not thinking of demonstrating to the P.O. at first. I would demonstrate -- and sell -- to a hundred thousand private individuals and corporations first. By the time I finished, the P.O. would be asking for a demonstration. Assuming the large cell test I witnessed in California was valid, CETI at that point had enough materials on hand to make dozens, perhaps hundreds, of demonstration cells that would have convinced any reasonable person. They chose to keep the product under wraps. They told me that was their policy. They actually wanted to discourage public interest and drive away curious corporations. Later, they said they had run out of effective beads, although Patterson denied that when I last spoke to him. I have no firm idea what the situation is, but a policy of deliberately discouraging customer interest strikes me as the number one most idiotic business strategy I have ever heard of. A top priority in business is to ATTRACT customers and EXCITE INTEREST in your product. Even when you sell to a small, exclusive group you must always build a good public image. When a schoolchild contacts a company that sells bridges, or jet engines, or shopping carts, the company will put on a smile and try to impress that child, even though she is not a potential customer. Why? Because it is good practice for working with real customers; because every ounce of public good will and understanding helps; you never know who her father or mother may be; and you never know where *she* may be working in 10 years. >CETI got a patent only because they went though the chemical division where >Patterson was known. In addition, he had a very good attorney. His >application >would have been denied had he gone through the nuclear division, as was later >stated. The system is far from ideal or even consistent with the law. It may not be ideal, but if that is how it works, that's how others should do it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 13:07:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA03164; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:56:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:56:12 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:02:38 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Bruce Meland cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, rockcast@net-link.net Subject: Negative Post >>> ? Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies In-Reply-To: <000c01c0e14b$1b500640$4f181ad8@oemcomputer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"xA0TL.0.Hn.SBN2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42718 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, Below see mentions of "negative post"... What is the reference.... OR Negative 'xxx' referred to what part of a circuit, if there is a circuit... Q: Can you please put this in context? On Sun, 20 May 2001, Bruce Meland wrote: > One of the methods Tesla used to create a higher voltage potential in ihs > energy reciever is use the ground as the negative post. Stay tuned Bruce > -----Original Message----- > From: Standing Bear > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Date: Sunday, May 20, 2001 6:18 AM > Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies > > > >On Friday 11 May 2001 19:28, Charles Ford wrote: > >> To prevent misunderstanding. > >> > >> > >> Amplification does not relate to matter, only energy. It takes MORE > >energy > >> > >> to amplify energy , not less, and you may create a resonance tuned > to > >the > >> > >> atom , but then you create a Laser, because eventually the Amplified > >> > energy > >> > >> will have to go somewhere. > >> > >> Resonance does not create energy it accumulates energy. The mechanism of > >> discharge is always non resonant and wasteful. > >> > >> > >> A capacitor stores electrical energy, but then releases it, and the > >> > rate and > >> > >> amount of release determines the capacitance. > >> > >> The capacitor only stores the energy. Release is external. The amount > of > >> energy it can store is dependant on the voltage at which you store the > >> energy. The capacity "Capacitance" is dependant on how much energy is > >> stored at a given voltage. The amount of energy that can be released is > >> the same as the amount that is stored. > >> > >> > >> A Resistor prevents energy from traveling along a path, > >> > >> A resister allows this travel while converting some of the energy to > heat. > >> > >> > >> And an amplifier takes a small input and creates a larger output. It > is > >> > >> nothing more than a flow controller, and it by itself cannot do > >anything > >> > >> like you describe. > >> > >> The resister is a flow control. An amplifier is an active device that > uses > >> external energy to increase the energy of a given input Weather it be > >> mechanical as with an automotive power steering system or electrical as > >> with a radio receiver. > >> > >> > >>>> A Coil takes a very low voltage with a high current and turns it > >> > into a very > >> > >> high voltage with a low current. > >> > >> That would be a transformer. A coil uses magnetic fields to provide an > >> exaggeration of an inertia like effect of electrical current flow called > >> inductance. It may also be used to radiate or collect magnetic signal > >energy. > >> > >> > >> Conservation of energy still takes place. You cannot get something > for > >> > >> nothing. In fact the law of the universe is you get nothing or less > >than > >> > >> something for something. > >> > >> Eh hm... You cannot get less.. All remains the same. If you waist energy > >> in an electrical circuit you get heat and electromagnetic radiation. > These > >> will total up to the loss. > >> > >> > >> We can store energy, we can convert it, but if you have a low amount > of > >> > >> energy, to convert it to a higher amount requires NO loss in > >manufacture, > >> > >> and as of the creation of the universe, its never been done. > >> > >> If you start with a low amount of energy you might change the form or > >> parameters but you end up with a low amount of energy. To "manufacture" > >> energy requires some sort of fuel > >> > >> > >> Some one invented a diode once. It has the action of only allowing > >> > energy to > >> > >> flow in one direction. However, it needs energy to activate, and > >therefore > >> > >> reduces the energy you flow past it. Some one connected 2 diodes > >> > together in > >> > >> a certain fashion, and therefore created a transistor, worsened the > >> > problem. > >> > >> It adds noise to the formula. > >> > >> A transistor is not two diodes. It is in fact a single diode. The trans > >> -resistive property of a diode is exploited by connecting external > >> conductors to two locations on one end of the same diode. This allows us > >> to control a large amount of current with a small amount of current. The > >> Mecca to technology that we live in today is based on this property of a > >diode. > >> > >> > >> Matter can be moved and molded and changed all with a cost of energy > >to do > >> > >> so. Matter can store energy in its electrical field, and its > inertia, > >> > and it > >> > >> can release energy when you break it down, but you cannot create > >> > matter from > >> > >> energy. The entire amount of matter created from the untold hours of > >> > >> particle collisions around the world in all the colliding equipment > >ever > >> > >> made could fit between this --> <-- and weigh about a gram. > >> > >> > >> > >> Considering all the Energy used to make that much matter, that > should > >more > >> > >> than prove to you that there is no free lunch. > >> > >> > >> > >> Matthew Rogers > >> > >> Prove it.. > >> > >> Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________________________ > >> Do You Yahoo!? > >> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >A transistor is not two diodes! A diode, as in semiconductor diode, > >is a two layer sandwich of opposing type semiconductor material; > >usually germanium or silicon crystals with differing impurities, or > 'dopings'. > >A transistor is composed of three layers of these same materials, with > >the two outer layers of one type and the inner layer of the opposing > >type. Leads called the emitter, base, and collector are respectively > >fastened to the bottom, middle, and top layers of the transistor. The > >layering idea lends itsellf naturally to circuit integration methods, > giving > >rise to our "IC's" that are in so many of our items today. Transistors > >are voltage controlled devices that control current flows with small > >variations of voltage near the 'diode drop' voltage applied to the > >'base', similar in ways to the 'control grid' of the old vacuum triode > >tube originally designed by Lee De Forest back in the early 20th > >century. > > C'mon people, this is a scientific site! Let us put quality in our > >letters by word and example. The whole world is watching us, and > >waiting and hoping for new discoveries. Inklings of those will > >probably be found in places like this list long before they become > >somebody's copyrighted and for sale front page news story. Often > >covered up real news can be found here too, like some cold > >fusion research. > > > >Standing Bear > > rockcast@net-link.net > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 15:13:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27039; Mon, 21 May 2001 15:08:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:08:42 -0700 Message-Id: <200105212208.SAA18646@mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: ENECO patent and CETI - mea culpa Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:01:45 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed@pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"_-VRg3.0.Pc6.e7P2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42719 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: >Oh, I am sorry! As I understood it, CETI derailed the U.S. patent at the >last minute with a challenge. I must have misunderstood; I am sure Ed's >version is correct. I apologize for spreading misinformation. It was the F&P *International filing* in Europe that was derailed, without a doubt. Fred Jaeger, Ex-CEO of ENECO told me that and Doc Patterson never denied that to me. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 15:20:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA30800; Mon, 21 May 2001 15:17:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:17:57 -0700 Message-ID: <002f01c0e243$dd4bea40$83290404@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010521101908.028bb050@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:17:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"XPGdP2.0.6X7.JGP2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42720 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, > >Jed wouldn't believe in Black Helicopters if one plucked him out of his back yard . . . > > As it happens, the government does run helicopters over my summer house > back yard, from a top-secret cold war doomsday installation. This is the > real thing, the stuff of conspiracy theory paranoia. Until six months ago > when the New York Times blabbed about the installation, it was a secret and > nobody I know discussed it, although we all knew about it. (The Times > reporter, I am happy to say, was arrested for trespassing.) At long last, > Now It Can Be Told, see: > > http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/raven_rock.htm I stand corrected. I did mean in the "paranoid black helicopter" sense, of course, and I gather from below that you are still not given to believe that those sorts of raids take place. I wouldn't try to argue you out of it--I've never been at a raid, nor even at a cattle mutilation. > >and there is certainly no point in trying to convince him that now and then the government does mean things to > >its own citizens. > Oh come now. I have been attacking the government's energy policies and the > hot fusion program for years. I was good friends with prominent Japanese > American citizens who lost everything in WWII. The government stole their > property and locked them up in camps in the desert. They remained patriotic > and they supported the government despite everything, and their sons fought > for the U.S. The rest of us should learn a lesson from them. Fair enough. Actually, we could also learn from my mother-in-law, who is Japanese and was in Japan during the war--she got over it and married an American. > >OK, so you should apply for a patent even thought the P.O. by law can't give > >you one. Ah, but if you bring a working model, then they'll have to give > >you one. > > Right. That happens all the time with controversial inventions other than > perpetual motion machines. You reserve your rights with the application, > and years later when you prove your point, the government grants the > patent. The government never hands out a patent easily. It always contests > claims. That's a good thing, considering how many nuisance patents and > baseless patents have been applied for. Jed, I want to compare this with your comments from below which were: > >(Me) You can actually get a patent if you obfuscate your claims a bit--this is how > >Roy Shelton managed to get a patent on a Newman device even though he had no > >working model. > > Exactly! That is how CETI did it too. So why not learn from their example? > People were saying that is how it should be done back in 1989. Well, which is it? Do they not hand out patents easily or do they? The Shelton patent was a complete sham from end to end, and an obvious rip-off of Newman's work (I.E. actually published a picture of a Newman device in an early issue which was the obvious template from which the Shelton device and patent was derived. I still call it the Shelton device since his name is on it, but he seems to have been out of the loop when the patent was actually written--ah well, it was all so sordid.) Now, I can forgive a patent examiner for not being familiar with Newman, but the patent itself was a complete mess. > > Yes, this course of action worked so well for Pons and > >Fleischmann. > > Pons and Fleischmann would have gotten a patent, but at the last minute, > when they had no more money left, CETI torpedoed them. The government did > not oppose them to an unusual extent, and it granted several other cold > fusion patents to CETI. Many other CF patents would have been granted if > the applicants had not been so confrontational and irrational. Most of the > ones I have seen which were not granted had no merit anyway. I see that Ed Storms cleared up this matter for you already and you agreed with him, so no more comment from me on this. > > Unfortunately, you also have to prove your working model isn't > >a trick, which is not easy to do when you're confronted with types who will > >no doubt accuse you of either lying or being given to hallucinations. > > It would be dead simple to prove that a working model is no trick. If I had > a few dozen machines, I could convince the whole world in six months. If CF > devices could be made robust enough to demonstrate reliably, the opposition > would vanish. History is full of examples of machines, discoveries and > inventions which everyone thought was impossible, yet which once revealed, >quickly convinced everyone. The most recent example is cloning mammals. Jed, this is what makes it frustrating to talk with you. It is NOT necessarily dead simple to prove that a working model is not a trick. By your own admission from other posts and previous correspondence, you are no whiz in the lab. Yes, IF you had a CF machine that could be made robust enough, then the opposition would vanish. But there is no reason why any particular device should be at all robust in its early stages--some might be, others will be more subtle. The subtle ones might suffice as a demonstration, but only if those being demonstrated to have the needed background to appreciate and understand what it is they are seeing. All you're saying is that you could convince people if the demonstrated effect was undeniable to anyone but an idiot. Well, yeah, I suppose you could. > > > > I keep telling them to have a camera ready but they say the film gets confiscated. > > > > > > How convenient! > > > >Well, duh, Jed. If we grant the premise of a raid, then the raiders would > >know enough to look for cameras and confiscate film, and likely cameras, > >too. > > Oh, right. And the government has done a fabulous job covering up all of > its other secrets, snafus, raids, outrages, and lawbreaking. Ten minutes > after the Elian raid in Florida there were photos of armed government > agents inside the house on every television in the world. I wouldn't imply they're miracle workers, Jed--the Elian thing was already on TV, as was Waco and the usual big deals one does hear about. But the sorts of raids that the "black helicopters" are supposed to run are in the dead of night, unexpected, and I guess quick. So confiscation of cameras would be mandatory. (If someone said the men in black just asked for the film nicely, I'd assume he had not been raided.) > There is no organization on earth watched more closely than the Federal Government. > Even local police cannot beat up a suspect any more without a video showing > up on the 5:00 local news. Like I said earlier, there's no arguing with you on this point. > Furthermore, there has never been a time in all history when it was easier > to safeguard information, circulate it, or avoid censorship. If a perpetual > motion machine inventor has any sense, he will keep computer files > describing his invention on back-up disks somewhere off-site, away from his > house. It is common knowledge that you should do this in case of fire, > flood or thieves. Backup disks (CD-ROMs) are small and easily hidden. The > government cannot find them all. An inventor who was determined to get the > secret out and avoid censorship could put a complete description and photos > of the device on Internet. In one day, thousands or even millions of people > worldwide could have a copy. Jed, the internet is rife with various and sundry anti-gravity devices--where have you been? It is also rife with over-unity machines, CF claims, and even Rife machines. All that would happen if an inventor did as you say is that his device would disappear into the background mush just like everyone else's would--how would you, yes you specifically, differentiate a real working device from the crap that's already out there, hmmm? And, assuming a raid, would you hide your back-up disks and protect the secret at the point of a gun? I wouldn't. Jeff From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 15:27:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA01682; Mon, 21 May 2001 15:25:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:25:26 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 08:25:10 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <065jgto0jn9npgpkuhq6rfjve5j4a9m9at@4ax.com> References: <01052022563604.00882@linux> <01052022563604.00882@linux> <98dhgt4219if9rr2oufbrt33kp39u1fce2@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA01651 Resent-Message-ID: <"0tY1v1.0.CQ.MNP2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42721 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Mon, 21 May 2001 11:02:42 -0500: [snip] >***{There are three space probes that show the anomalous slowing-down of >their motion: Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, and Ulysses. Since they are all >moving in different directions, and not from a common center, how can the >unknown object be behind each of them without being in several places at >once? --MJ}*** [snip] Actually I'm largely inclined to agree with this, however one annoying small chance does still exist. Since all three were launched from Earth, if the other body had been on the other side of the sun at the time of launch of all three, then is would have contributed to the slowing of all of them in the same way, in the initial stages of their trajectories. However I doubt this would have gone unnoticed at the time as the implication is that the effect would have primarily been in evidence in the first stage of their journeys, and been different later on. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 15:31:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA03044; Mon, 21 May 2001 15:29:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:29:54 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 08:29:47 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <002101c0e218$6e378a40$e68f85ce@computer> In-Reply-To: <002101c0e218$6e378a40$e68f85ce@computer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA03016 Resent-Message-ID: <"H-G_N1.0.Ql.XRP2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42722 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 21 May 2001 12:05:52 -0500: [snip] >With the "Fair Weather Field" running about 170 volts/meter, if your roof is 5 >meters high that would get you up to around 850 volts. >> >>Wire it to one side of a capacitor, the other going to a good earth ground. >> >Since energy, W stored is 1/2CV^2 a 10 microfarad capacitor at 1,000 volts >will store: 0.5*10^-5*10^6 = 5.0 joules >> >>Connect the capacitor across some sort of switching device so that it can >>be discharges at rhythmic intervals. >> >If you dump the 5 joules through a matched load at 10 times/second you >get 50 watts. [snip] The problem is that the actual rate of discharge varies considerably (or so I've been told), from several times per second to possibly only several times per day. In short the average current ensures that it really isn't worth the effort. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 15:32:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA03466; Mon, 21 May 2001 15:31:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:31:07 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:30:48 -0700 Message-ID: <001901c0e245$afe38c00$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <006601c0e223$e7841660$e68f85ce@computer> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"0GsD72.0.1s.fSP2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42723 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Using this Design, is basically an Antenna, for receiving the energy of the earth, with a rectifier for generating a current flow.(rectenna) The ground, although it is a poor conductor, it is very large, so there is an efficiency to the equation. Power companies generally use the ground as the final leg for all the transmissions needs they have. However, Telsla's Idea was to generate power , and use the air and ground for the conductor. No Wires. The problem with this, anyone with a rectenna ( rectifying antenna ) could receive the power and not pay the power companies. This is the principal power problem with generating power with earth orbiting power stations, the receiver could pirate free power. Since Tesla's primary benefactor was Westinghouse, for all his experiments, there is no conspiracy, just , they would not make any money, because they couldn't meter it. Matthew Rogers Prove it.. Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 11:29 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: RE: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla I believe you, Keith. Especially since on summer nights I can see the lightning activity at the Langmuir Lab on top of a > 10,500 ft mountain about 40 miles away as the crow flys. (east of the VLA) C.B."Charlie" Moore a professor at New Mexico Tech ran the lab up until a few years ago. I accepted his invite to visit in 1984. Harrowing experience driving up there, and white-knuckle driving back down after I found that my brakes wouldn't hold if I got up past 7 mph. :-) Look at the CSU Field mill data I posted. Regards, Frederick > Hi Fred. > > Having done these types of experiments about 10 years ago, > I recollect that although it is indeed possible to generate > power with this type of circuit it's not nearly as peachy > as you predict. Generally, charging currents are TINY so > rep rate was pretty low, in fact one would get more power > for synchronously rectifying the AC signals than just discharging > the accumulated DC. > > On the other hand, when weather conditions turned stormy > one could get down-right dangerous conditions in the circuit. > In the extreme case, you'd take a lightning strike. Otherwise, > expect a great deal of sparking and destroyed electronics. > This is hardly new, most Hams have a story or two about getting > big shocks from working with antennas. The more curious of > these folks even try to arrange some kind of recification > system and a battery. It works, after a fashion. The big > problem is the huge variation in possible energies in the > circuit. I think most people just put a spark gap across > the sensitive part of the collector and if things get > to nasty you just discharge the rest of the energy to > ground. But this defeats the purpose of the device... > This is akin to trying to build an efficient water wheel to take > power from a stream which varies from an elephant piddling > to the Amazon river. Of course with sufficient Will > it's an achievable goal, at least I thought so back > then... > > I don't quite see what this has to do with Tesla, or light > leptons for that matter, but then who am I to say, I just > build stuff (smile). > > By the way, that business about "nutrinos" and 1200watt > waffle irons would be just marginally more believable > if the author learned how to spell neutrino. Just marginally. > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 1:06 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Cc: Colin Quinney > Subject: Re: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla > > > Anonymous wrote: > > > >Tesla's "solar panel" is just a shiny metal plate with a transparent > coating of some > >insulating material which today could be a spray plastic. > > > The "shiny metal plate" could be galvanized roofing panels electrically tied > together > and laid on insulating urethane furring strips on your roof. > > With the "Fair Weather Field" running about 170 volts/meter, if your roof is > 5 > meters high that would get you up to around 850 volts. > > > >Wire it to one side of a capacitor, the other going to a good earth ground. > > > Since energy, W stored is 1/2CV^2 a 10 microfarad capacitor at 1,000 volts > will store: 0.5*10^-5*10^6 = 5.0 joules > > > >Connect the capacitor across some sort of switching device so that it can > >be discharges at rhythmic intervals. > > > If you dump the 5 joules through a matched load at 10 times/second you > get 50 watts. > > > >The bigger the area of the insulated plate, the more energy you get. > > > Or the more voltage on the capacitor, and the more capacitance. > > Assume "Small Ions" or Light Leptons in the atmosphere that Cannot Flow into > the > Plate-Capacitor-Load, are biasing the plate such that Regular Electrons can > flow out of earth ground to charge the capacitor.... > > Since the Sun is responsible for the Ionosphere and Fair Weather Field and > the Small Ions and/or Light Leptons. This "Free-Energy Receiver" is a > Solar Powered System that may rival Hydropower or Windpower in Simplicity. > > Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 15:47:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07877; Mon, 21 May 2001 15:43:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:43:28 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 08:42:52 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <003901c0e220$b5436e60$e68f85ce@computer> In-Reply-To: <003901c0e220$b5436e60$e68f85ce@computer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA07834 Resent-Message-ID: <"F_ykZ.0.uw1.GeP2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42724 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 21 May 2001 13:05:48 -0500: >Well now. What's going on out there? > > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html Has anyone considered friction with space dust, gasses, plasma etc.? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 16:15:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA16572; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:12:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:12:47 -0700 Message-ID: <00b201c0e242$e600b9a0$e68f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <003901c0e220$b5436e60$e68f85ce@computer> Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:10:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"Dz9Hu1.0.r24.k3Q2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42725 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 5:42 PM Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Robin wrote: > In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 21 May 2001 13:05:48 > -0500: > > >Well now. What's going on out there? > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html > > Has anyone considered friction with space dust, gasses, plasma etc.? Don't need it. This is the M&M "Aether Drag" in operation. The couldn't find it on/near the Earth where the Earth's gravity field is creating the "Aether". Regards, Frederick > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 16:22:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA19274; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:20:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:20:22 -0700 Message-ID: <001a01c0e24c$97fff5e0$96c21004@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010521101908.028bb050@pop.mindspring.com> <3B092FB6.B4ACC2B8@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 19:20:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"oH7Ri.0.4j4.sAQ2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42726 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ed, You wrote: >The response is (paraphrased), we are an > independent agency, we are doing our duty, so mind your own business. The > response is totally irrational and makes one wonder just what is the reason > behind the action. Once when I was renting a truck, I met the one guy in the office who seemed to know what he was doing. We talked a bit and it turned out he knew quite a bit about Cold Fusion even though the story was by then ten years old. I asked how he'd come to hear of it. Seems he was in training to be a Navy SEAL (I gather he likely washed out at some point as many do) and one of the topics covered in explosives and demolition was Cold Fusion. Why would that be if the subject had already been determined to be worthless? It would not surprise me one bit if "national security" was at least part of the explanation for the irrational behavior. On the other hand, I don't expect rational behavior as a general rule from government agencies. > > >Unfortunately, you also have to prove your working model isn't > > >a trick, which is not easy to do when you're confronted with types who will > > >no doubt accuse you of either lying or being given to hallucinations. > > > > It would be dead simple to prove that a working model is no trick. If I had > > a few dozen machines, I could convince the whole world in six months. If CF > > devices could be made robust enough to demonstrate reliably, the opposition > > would vanish. History is full of examples of machines, discoveries and > > inventions which everyone thought was impossible, yet which once revealed, > > quickly convinced everyone. The most recent example is cloning mammals. > > CETI offered to demonstrate a working cell producing excess energy and the PO > refused to examine it. Whether the cell actually made energy can be debated. > The fact is that the PO never tried to find out. And if they had tried it, to whom would they have turned to be their experts, to judge whether or not the effect was real? Jed makes out like this is just a matter of showing the thing off, but...well, we all know how good the skeptics are at being skeptical. kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 16:34:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23896; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:31:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:31:51 -0700 Message-ID: <001f01c0e24e$2f8efb80$96c21004@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010521101908.028bb050@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing--additional point Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 19:31:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"rH8ZL3.0.Cr5.bLQ2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42727 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, I forgot to comment on one other thing. You said: > History is full of examples of machines, discoveries and > inventions which everyone thought was impossible, yet which once revealed, > quickly convinced everyone. The most recent example is cloning mammals. Cloning is a terrible example with which to back up your point. Not only was cloning predicted long ago, and discussed at length and ad nauseum in numerous SF stories and "forward looking" magazines, it was also being used in various ways for years prior to cloning mammals. No reputable researcher, nor even informed layman, would have doubt the possibility that a mammal could one day be cloned, though there may have been some argument over how soon. For that matter, "Dolly" (the sheep was named Dolly, right?) was not universally accepted as being a real clone. It quickly convinced people who were willing to believe what they were told right off the bat, but some genuine experts in the field required some additional convincing. It wasn't possible to just look at Dolly and say, "Ah yes, a clone!" Now, I'll grant that heavier than air flight seems to fit your model, but what other machines, discoveries, and inventions have you in mind? kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 16:36:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA24539; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:34:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:34:09 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <003901c0e220$b5436e60$e68f85ce@computer> <003901c0e220$b5436e60$e68f85ce@computer> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:32:30 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"gz9pW.0.J_5.nNQ2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42728 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 21 May 2001 13:05:48 >-0500: > >>Well now. What's going on out there? >> >> http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html > >Has anyone considered friction with space dust, gasses, plasma etc.? ***{I believe the density of the medium was one of the things the onboard instruments measured, though I don't recall which specific probe was sampling that info (could have been one of the Voyagers, or one of the Pioneers). In any event, I think that is known to good enough accuracy so that such a possibility could have been discounted. (I can't cite any links on that point, however.) --MJ}*** >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see >http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 16:47:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA30599; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:45:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:45:18 -0700 Message-ID: <00da01c0e247$6d533960$e68f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <001901c0e245$afe38c00$1f962640@bear> Subject: Re: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:43:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"tZwWI3.0.sT7.BYQ2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42729 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 5:30 PM Subject: RE: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Matthew, In 1951-52 I "babysat" a comm center that used three rhombic antennas where each leg of the "diamond" was a wire with a 250 ft span, on 90 foot poles. On a dry windy day with a bit of dust in the air the static charge would build up so much that the "horn gap" spark gaps couldn't dissipate the charge before it kicked out the overload on the 1 kw transmitters that were not even on. :-) Light Leptons/Static Charge in action. Regards, Frederick > Using this Design, is basically an Antenna, for receiving the energy of the > earth, with a rectifier for generating a current flow.(rectenna) > > The ground, although it is a poor conductor, it is very large, so there is > an efficiency to the equation. > > Power companies generally use the ground as the final leg for all the > transmissions needs they have. > > However, Telsla's Idea was to generate power , and use the air and ground > for the conductor. No Wires. > > The problem with this, anyone with a rectenna ( rectifying antenna ) could > receive the power and not pay the power companies. > > This is the principal power problem with generating power with earth > orbiting power stations, the receiver could pirate free power. > > Since Tesla's primary benefactor was Westinghouse, for all his experiments, > there is no conspiracy, just , they would not make any money, because they > couldn't meter it. > > > Matthew Rogers > Prove it.. > Either build it and sell it or Ill buy one. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 11:29 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Cc: Colin Quinney > Subject: Re: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keith Nagel" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 2:15 PM > Subject: RE: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla > > I believe you, Keith. > > Especially since on summer nights I can see the lightning activity at the > Langmuir Lab > on top of a > 10,500 ft mountain about 40 miles away as the crow flys. (east > of the > VLA) > > C.B."Charlie" Moore a professor at New Mexico Tech ran the lab up until a > few years > ago. I accepted his invite to visit in 1984. Harrowing experience driving up > there, > and white-knuckle driving back down after I found that my brakes wouldn't > hold if I > got up past 7 mph. :-) > Look at the CSU Field mill data I posted. > > Regards, Frederick > > > > Hi Fred. > > > > Having done these types of experiments about 10 years ago, > > I recollect that although it is indeed possible to generate > > power with this type of circuit it's not nearly as peachy > > as you predict. Generally, charging currents are TINY so > > rep rate was pretty low, in fact one would get more power > > for synchronously rectifying the AC signals than just discharging > > the accumulated DC. > > > > On the other hand, when weather conditions turned stormy > > one could get down-right dangerous conditions in the circuit. > > In the extreme case, you'd take a lightning strike. Otherwise, > > expect a great deal of sparking and destroyed electronics. > > This is hardly new, most Hams have a story or two about getting > > big shocks from working with antennas. The more curious of > > these folks even try to arrange some kind of recification > > system and a battery. It works, after a fashion. The big > > problem is the huge variation in possible energies in the > > circuit. I think most people just put a spark gap across > > the sensitive part of the collector and if things get > > to nasty you just discharge the rest of the energy to > > ground. But this defeats the purpose of the device... > > This is akin to trying to build an efficient water wheel to take > > power from a stream which varies from an elephant piddling > > to the Amazon river. Of course with sufficient Will > > it's an achievable goal, at least I thought so back > > then... > > > > I don't quite see what this has to do with Tesla, or light > > leptons for that matter, but then who am I to say, I just > > build stuff (smile). > > > > By the way, that business about "nutrinos" and 1200watt > > waffle irons would be just marginally more believable > > if the author learned how to spell neutrino. Just marginally. > > > > K. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 1:06 PM > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Cc: Colin Quinney > > Subject: Re: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla > > > > > > Anonymous wrote: > > > > > >Tesla's "solar panel" is just a shiny metal plate with a transparent > > coating of some > > >insulating material which today could be a spray plastic. > > > > > The "shiny metal plate" could be galvanized roofing panels electrically > tied > > together > > and laid on insulating urethane furring strips on your roof. > > > > With the "Fair Weather Field" running about 170 volts/meter, if your roof > is > > 5 > > meters high that would get you up to around 850 volts. > > > > > >Wire it to one side of a capacitor, the other going to a good earth > ground. > > > > > Since energy, W stored is 1/2CV^2 a 10 microfarad capacitor at 1,000 volts > > will store: 0.5*10^-5*10^6 = 5.0 joules > > > > > >Connect the capacitor across some sort of switching device so that it can > > >be discharges at rhythmic intervals. > > > > > If you dump the 5 joules through a matched load at 10 times/second you > > get 50 watts. > > > > > >The bigger the area of the insulated plate, the more energy you get. > > > > > Or the more voltage on the capacitor, and the more capacitance. > > > > Assume "Small Ions" or Light Leptons in the atmosphere that Cannot Flow > into > > the > > Plate-Capacitor-Load, are biasing the plate such that Regular Electrons > can > > flow out of earth ground to charge the capacitor.... > > > > Since the Sun is responsible for the Ionosphere and Fair Weather Field and > > the Small Ions and/or Light Leptons. This "Free-Energy Receiver" is a > > Solar Powered System that may rival Hydropower or Windpower in Simplicity. > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 18:31:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA00460; Mon, 21 May 2001 18:27:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:27:01 -0700 Message-ID: <00ed01c0e255$a0921680$e68f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 19:24:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0E22B.A7088B40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"1iDVz1.0.17.Y1S2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42730 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0E22B.A7088B40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0E22B.A7088B40" ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0E22B.A7088B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michelson-Morely ExperimentSee Robin . It's Aether Drag that does it. = :-) Michelson and Morley Experiment :=20 The Michelson-Morley experiment was an attempt to detect the velocity of = the Earth with respect to the hypothetical luminiferous ether, a medium = in space proposed to carry light waves. First performed in Berlin in = 1881 by the physicist A.A. Michelson, the test was later refined in 1887 = by Michelson and E.W. Morley in the United States.=20 The procedure depended on a Michelson interferometer, a sensitive = optical device that compares the optical path lengths for light moving = in two mutually perpendicular directions. It was reasoned that, if the = speed of light were constant with respect to the proposed ether through = which the Earth was moving, that motion could be detected by comparing = the speed of light in the direction of the Earth's motion and the speed = of light at right angles to the Earth's motion. No difference was found. = This null result seriously discredited the ether theories and ultimately = led to the acceptence of Albert Einstein's 1905 proposal that the speed = of light is a universal constant.=20 On the left is the Michelson-Morely apparatus align so that the aether = wind (brought about by the motion of the earth through the aether) would = not affect the time it takes for the vertical light to reach the mirror = and return, but would affect the time of the horizontal light path. On = the right, the experiment is aligned within the aether so that both = light rays will take the same (somewhat delayed) time in reaching the = mirror and returning. =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C0E22B.A7088B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michelson-Morely Experiment
See Robin . It's Aether Drag that does = it.=20 :-)
Michelson and Morley Experiment :=20

The Michelson-Morley experiment was an attempt to detect the velocity = of the=20 Earth with respect to the hypothetical luminiferous ether, a medium in = space=20 proposed to carry light waves. First performed in Berlin in 1881 by the=20 physicist A.A. Michelson, the test was later refined in 1887 by = Michelson and=20 E.W. Morley in the United States.=20

The procedure depended on a Michelson interferometer, a sensitive = optical=20 device that compares the optical path lengths for light moving in two = mutually=20 perpendicular directions. It was reasoned that, if the speed of light = were=20 constant with respect to the proposed ether through which the Earth was = moving,=20 that motion could be detected by comparing the speed of light in the = direction=20 of the Earth's motion and the speed of light at right angles to the = Earth's=20 motion. No difference was found. This null result seriously discredited = the=20 ether theories and ultimately led to the acceptence of Albert Einstein's = 1905=20 proposal that the speed of light is a universal constant.=20

On the left is the = Michelson-Morely=20 apparatus align so that the aether wind (brought about by the motion of = the=20 earth through the aether) would not affect the time it takes for the = vertical=20 light to reach the mirror and return, but would affect the time of the=20 horizontal light path. On the right, the experiment is aligned within = the aether=20 so that both light rays will take the same (somewhat delayed) time in = reaching=20 the mirror and returning. =

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Mon, 21 May 2001 19:05:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 19:05:46 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010521205506.018e2b60@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:07:51 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Ok, pick this apart In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"6ldTl3.0.-m2.wbS2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42731 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin: This is the first new thing I have seen that shines a light of competence into the confusing mater of "mater". Extraordinarily cool and it allows for an electromagnetic explanation for the universe. You may already know that in the way of physics I am self educated. However. As an electrical engineer I can tell you that the EM work is right on the mark. Take this one to the Noble. :-) At 04:05 PM 5/21/01 +1000, you wrote: >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/Magnetic-mass.html > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see >http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 19:25:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16910; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:23:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 19:23:33 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010521211643.00c2b3a0@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:25:24 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly In-Reply-To: <00ed01c0e255$a0921680$e68f85ce@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"X0ZDI1.0.-74.asS2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42732 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:24 PM 5/21/01 -0500, you wrote: >See Robin . It's Aether Drag that does it. :-) >Michelson and Morley Experiment : > >The Michelson-Morley experiment was an attempt to detect the velocity of >the Earth with respect to the hypothetical luminiferous ether, a medium in >space proposed to carry light waves. First performed in Berlin in 1881 by >the physicist A.A. Michelson, the test was later refined in 1887 by >Michelson and E.W. Morley in the United States. Fred: Question??? How does one know ahead of time what direction the earth is moving through the aether? >As the earth spins on its axes it rotates around Sol and Sol rotates >around the galactic core which is? or is not? moving. How fast? in what >direction? How did Michelson and Morley know they where not measuring two >directions that where (although perpendicualr to each other) at a 45 >degree angle to the aether wind? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 19:31:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA18706; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:30:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 19:30:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00b201c0e242$e600b9a0$e68f85ce@computer> References: <003901c0e220$b5436e60$e68f85ce@computer> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:26:39 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"t-NcM.0.4a4.jyS2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42733 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >To: >Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 5:42 PM >Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly > >Robin wrote: > > >> In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 21 May 2001 13:05:48 >> -0500: >> >> >Well now. What's going on out there? >> > >> > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html >> >> Has anyone considered friction with space dust, gasses, plasma etc.? > >Don't need it. This is the M&M "Aether Drag" in operation. The couldn't >find it >on/near the Earth where the Earth's gravity field is creating the "Aether". ***{I assume you are talking about the Michelson and Morley experiment. If so, I must point out that the slowing of light in one thing, and the slowing of a 260 lb space probe is quite another. The Pioneer probes are currently moving slower than Earth, since when it swings around in its orbit so that it is going in the same direction as one of them, the distance of separation declines. Thus we are not talking about relativistic velocities here, and aether drag on one of these gadgets should be negligible. One of the things I considered was a doppler effect on the probe's radio signal exerted by an aether flow toward the sun, as Ross Tessien used to talk about. However, that would be in the wrong direction: it would exaggerate the redshift, thereby causing Earth-bound observers to think the recession velocity of the probe was anomalously large, rather than anomalously small. My own view, on the other hand, has always been that the direction of aether flow along the planetary disc is *away* from the sun rather than toward it. The reason: I would expect the sun to act like a gigantic squirrel-cage blower, sucking aether in at its poles and throwing it out along its equator. That would give a lesser redshift for the Pioneer space probes and, thus, would cause the JPL team to calculate a lower recession velocity than expected, thereby possibly explaining the anomaly. Or maybe not. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** >Regards, Frederick ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 20:31:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA05055; Mon, 21 May 2001 20:30:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:30:38 -0700 Message-ID: <011501c0e266$eb8557e0$e68f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <003901c0e220$b5436e60$e68f85ce@computer> Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:27:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"3OylO3.0.mE1.UrT2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42734 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since Peter Fred and Nick Reiter contend that the temperature/heat of a mass affect the gravitational force, as these birds get colder they feel a slightly stronger gravitational pull: Fg = 6.67E-11*2.2E30*(260* b)/R^2) where b is a temperature/heat mass-change coefficient. Remember that they have enough radioisotope in them to power four 40 watt power supplies. OTOH, they should speed up as the isotope decays and they become lighter. Will you buy that? :-) Regards, Frederick > > > >Robin wrote: > > > > > >> In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 21 May 2001 13:05:48 > >> -0500: > >> > >> >Well now. What's going on out there? > >> > > >> > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html > >> > >> Has anyone considered friction with space dust, gasses, plasma etc.? > > > >Don't need it. This is the M&M "Aether Drag" in operation. The couldn't > >find it > >on/near the Earth where the Earth's gravity field is creating the "Aether". > > ***{I assume you are talking about the Michelson and Morley experiment. If > so, I must point out that the slowing of light in one thing, and the > slowing of a 260 lb space probe is quite another. The Pioneer probes are > currently moving slower than Earth, since when it swings around in its > orbit so that it is going in the same direction as one of them, the > distance of separation declines. Thus we are not talking about relativistic > velocities here, and aether drag on one of these gadgets should be > negligible. > > One of the things I considered was a doppler effect on the probe's radio > signal exerted by an aether flow toward the sun, as Ross Tessien used to > talk about. However, that would be in the wrong direction: it would > exaggerate the redshift, thereby causing Earth-bound observers to think the > recession velocity of the probe was anomalously large, rather than > anomalously small. > > My own view, on the other hand, has always been that the direction of > aether flow along the planetary disc is *away* from the sun rather than > toward it. The reason: I would expect the sun to act like a gigantic > squirrel-cage blower, sucking aether in at its poles and throwing it out > along its equator. That would give a lesser redshift for the Pioneer space > probes and, thus, would cause the JPL team to calculate a lower recession > velocity than expected, thereby possibly explaining the anomaly. > > Or maybe not. :-) > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >Regards, Frederick > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 20:53:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10731; Mon, 21 May 2001 20:51:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:51:13 -0700 Sender: hoyt@eskimo.com Message-ID: <3B09E210.FE798409@home.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:50:40 -0700 From: "Hoyt Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stargate@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Multiple universes...and how about time travel??? References: <20010521072608.82120.qmail@web11706.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"C_ri_1.0.ad2.m8U2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42735 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: WRP wrote: http://www.newscientist.com/newsletter/features.jsp?id=ns22911 > > Another really interesting article. In the last > paragraph.this article makes an intersting point, > It says that there are only two ways to prevent > making total hamburger out of causality.when you > time travel .if you do succeed in time > traveling.. either you run into some unknown > stone walls that prevent you from changing the > past even though you are there...or you > split the universe into multiple realities by a > time loop... ??!! Let's look at this from another perspective. The above assumes that there is a fixed past common to all of us. I contend that the past isn't fixed and isn't common to all of us. It's quite different for each of us, and only serves to maintain a sense of continuity for physically focussed consciousness. There are some experiments that show this that you can do. "Reality" isn't nearly as common amongst us at it seems--really, it only has to be consistent in our local arena-- what we perceive around us, which is quite limited to the people we directly interact with and our immediate physical surroundings + what we see in mass media. Indeed, one reason there's so much more communication to us from the non-physical sector now than previously is that mass media has created a situation that was originally not forseen to grow to these proportions. By causing mass attention to "bad things", something the media thrives on, the "bad things" are amplified beyond reason, and it has become necessary for intervention in the form of communication for understanding to avert the amplification of that to the point of catastrophe. Lately, I've heard on the radio examples of some people clearly remembering that Nelson Mandela was killed in prison, whilst others think he's alive and well. Both are true! I think you'll find lots of examples of these kinds of things. The "past" is a plausible set of memories that rationally lead us into our now. There are infinitely many of those. One constantly hears that the non-physical universe is timeless. It isn't really, as it is unfolding and expanding, but that time isn't ours. Imagine that you are playing a video game in an arcade, or better still, inside a StarTrek Holodeck playing a game of your own creation. The game was created with some risk for the excitement of it. Suddenly, you get clawed fatally by a Tizzle Topped Tufted Mazurka and croak. Game Over-- but it was worth the fun, because you know you can't really die. You put in another dollar for another round. Alternatively, you didn't like that outcome and decide to back up the game (time travel)-- computer: back up the program 30 seconds and resume from that point, with these changes in the parameters. If you really want to, you can change the rules of the game! You may choose to remember during play that you did that or not ( i.e. you become hypnotized by the intense focus, and forget it's just a game), but now you're prepared and the outcome is different. It is important to understand that "we each get our own private holodeck", as emphasized *vehemently* by many sages. The universe has the ability to synchronize and link them together sufficiently to create a somewhat stable common environment among us for a consistent "mass consciousness". There are many who choose to deviate sufficiently from our common perspective that they are no longer visible to us --their reality is so different it just doesn't make any rational sense to us--the laws of physics may be different. Occasionally, there is an intersection that we perceive as a physical anomaly, e.g. flying saucers, bigfoot, crop circle, etc. The rules of the game are entirely up to you. Regards, Hoyt Stearns Phoenix http://www.turbotip.webhop.net From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 21:10:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA15313; Mon, 21 May 2001 21:09:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:09:02 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ok, pick this apart Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:08:22 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <4.2.0.58.20010521205506.018e2b60@postoffice.swbell.net> In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010521205506.018e2b60@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA15264 Resent-Message-ID: <"ndHfA1.0.Al3.TPU2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42736 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Charles Ford's message of Mon, 21 May 2001 21:07:51 -0500: >Robin: > >This is the first new thing I have seen that shines a light of competence >into the confusing mater of "mater". Extraordinarily cool and it allows >for an electromagnetic explanation for the universe. [snip] Thanks for the kind words Charles, but I was really hoping for some criticism (or perhaps more accurately ways in which I could improve the holes in the physics). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 21:54:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA26706; Mon, 21 May 2001 21:53:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:53:51 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:53:36 -0700 Message-ID: <000401c0e27b$29e963f0$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <011501c0e266$eb8557e0$e68f85ce@computer> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"dIgoW1.0.CX6.U3V2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42737 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The other options not discussed, is the space curvature phenomenon, and the heliopause. If space is flatter , with less curve due to the gravity well of the solar system, then by all appearances at those distances, with us looking up out of curved space, the space probes Would appear to going slower than calculated for the following reasons. The Speed of light is not constant, the medium in which light exists determines its speed. Ergo, a Prism will bend light, or water, making light change directions. At some point, the gravity of the Sun no longer changes the shape of space around it, at a point to be measurable, and then the apparent speed of light would increase. Light always follows the shortest path through space, but is limited by the geodesic shape of the medium within it travels. In the medium which is less dense, it travels faster. If you make a better vacuum, with less gravity as well as medium, ( water/air/vacuum ), light will travel faster. Both the Pioneer spacecraft have left the heliopause, the area around the sun where the solar wind meets the local galactic space. The medium has changed, nothing more. This Phenomenon is normal and should have been expected and noticed sooner. Matthew Rogers Prove it.. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 7:28 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Since Peter Fred and Nick Reiter contend that the temperature/heat of a mass affect the gravitational force, as these birds get colder they feel a slightly stronger gravitational pull: Fg = 6.67E-11*2.2E30*(260* b)/R^2) where b is a temperature/heat mass-change coefficient. Remember that they have enough radioisotope in them to power four 40 watt power supplies. OTOH, they should speed up as the isotope decays and they become lighter. Will you buy that? :-) Regards, Frederick > > > >Robin wrote: > > > > > >> In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 21 May 2001 13:05:48 > >> -0500: > >> > >> >Well now. What's going on out there? > >> > > >> > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html > >> > >> Has anyone considered friction with space dust, gasses, plasma etc.? > > > >Don't need it. This is the M&M "Aether Drag" in operation. The couldn't > >find it > >on/near the Earth where the Earth's gravity field is creating the "Aether". > > ***{I assume you are talking about the Michelson and Morley experiment. If > so, I must point out that the slowing of light in one thing, and the > slowing of a 260 lb space probe is quite another. The Pioneer probes are > currently moving slower than Earth, since when it swings around in its > orbit so that it is going in the same direction as one of them, the > distance of separation declines. Thus we are not talking about relativistic > velocities here, and aether drag on one of these gadgets should be > negligible. > > One of the things I considered was a doppler effect on the probe's radio > signal exerted by an aether flow toward the sun, as Ross Tessien used to > talk about. However, that would be in the wrong direction: it would > exaggerate the redshift, thereby causing Earth-bound observers to think the > recession velocity of the probe was anomalously large, rather than > anomalously small. > > My own view, on the other hand, has always been that the direction of > aether flow along the planetary disc is *away* from the sun rather than > toward it. The reason: I would expect the sun to act like a gigantic > squirrel-cage blower, sucking aether in at its poles and throwing it out > along its equator. That would give a lesser redshift for the Pioneer space > probes and, thus, would cause the JPL team to calculate a lower recession > velocity than expected, thereby possibly explaining the anomaly. > > Or maybe not. :-) > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >Regards, Frederick > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 22:00:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA28579; Mon, 21 May 2001 22:00:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:00:12 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 01:06:38 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Robin van Spaandonk cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: energy receiver of N Tesla In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"kSpG-3.0.O-6.S9V2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42738 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Folks, In text below the Fair Weather Current", abbreviated FWC, an and does, from time to time reach 150 to 250 volts per meter. The currents are VERY VERY small, on the order of 2 to 50 microvolts on the small side and up to lightning on the high side. There currents are a lot of fun to listen to. There are also times when the currents are dangerous AND lethal and can and do cause big trouble from fires and damage to equipment. I am curious as to the current levels discussed, below, that will yield 50 watts. On Tue, 22 May 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 21 May 2001 12:05:52 > -0500: > [snip] > >With the "Fair Weather Field" running about 170 volts/meter, if your roof is 5 > >meters high that would get you up to around 850 volts. > >> > >>Wire it to one side of a capacitor, the other going to a good earth ground. > >> > >Since energy, W stored is 1/2CV^2 a 10 microfarad capacitor at 1,000 volts > >will store: 0.5*10^-5*10^6 = 5.0 joules > >> > >>Connect the capacitor across some sort of switching device so that it can > >>be discharges at rhythmic intervals. > >> > >If you dump the 5 joules through a matched load at 10 times/second you > >get 50 watts. > [snip] > The problem is that the actual rate of discharge varies considerably (or > so I've been told), from several times per second to possibly only > several times per day. > > In short the average current ensures that it really isn't worth the > effort. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 22:17:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA32763; Mon, 21 May 2001 22:16:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:16:39 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 01:23:10 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Charles Ford cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: WWHAT...Please...Ok, pick this apart In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010521205506.018e2b60@postoffice.swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"AllYp.0.r_7.tOV2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42739 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, What are we looking at which "....... shines a light of competence into the confusing mater of "mater". ....." And is this a typo? Matter? I too would like to thank Robin ... but what are we thanking about? Ya'thanks, J On Mon, 21 May 2001, Charles Ford wrote: > Robin: > > This is the first new thing I have seen that shines a light of competence > into the confusing mater of "mater". Extraordinarily cool and it allows > for an electromagnetic explanation for the universe. > > You may already know that in the way of physics I am self > educated. However. As an electrical engineer I can tell you that the EM > work is right on the mark. > > Take this one to the Noble. :-) > > > At 04:05 PM 5/21/01 +1000, you wrote: > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/Magnetic-mass.html > > > > > >Regards, > > > >Robin van Spaandonk > > > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >New model hydrogen atom see > >http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 23:54:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA22867; Mon, 21 May 2001 23:53:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:53:57 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01c0e071$c09cc640$LocalHost@jeffery> References: <01c0e071$c09cc640$LocalHost@jeffery> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 01:53:59 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Ghosts--was: The Principle of Continuity of Mind Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"25GMS2.0.2b5.2qW2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42741 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From: Mitchell Jones >Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind > > >>Ed Storms wrote: >> >>My wife and her mother both saw a ghost one evening in their home. >> >>***{I would suggest that your wife and her mother saw *something*, and that > >they, by virtue of their mindset at the time, *interpreted* it as a ghost. > > >As I pointed out previously, there are at least two physical >manifestations which can produce solid evidence. One is to take a >tape recorder and a new tape into the affected area and let it run. >The other is to get a sensative therometer the temperature drops >when the beings in question manifest. > >Why do you suppose that is? :-) > >We're not far enough along in the game to make a decision on that. If >"ghosts" are just some sort of odd physical effect, then no doubt we could There have been several guests on the Art Bell program who have been doing this kind of research for some time > >Well, now this IS true in the case of anti-gravity machines, which are > But ghosts are not, at this point in the game, >such things. > >kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 23:54:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA22969; Mon, 21 May 2001 23:54:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:54:10 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <003901c0e220$b5436e60$e68f85ce@computer> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 01:53:59 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"Y9S7g1.0.nc5.IqW2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42743 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote; > >My own view, on the other hand, has always been that the direction of >aether flow along the planetary disc is *away* from the sun rather than >toward it. The reason: I would expect the sun to act like a gigantic >squirrel-cage blower, sucking aether in at its poles and throwing it out >along its equator. That would give a lesser redshift for the Pioneer space >probes and, thus, would cause the JPL team to calculate a lower recession >velocity than expected, thereby possibly explaining the anomaly. brilliant theory Mitchell! It reminds me of Russell's Cosmogony. Now if we can just figure out how to create a small model in our garage with vaporizing ourselves. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 23:54:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA23007; Mon, 21 May 2001 23:54:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:54:14 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 01:53:59 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: the image on mars Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"4vYW-3.0.Kd5.LqW2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42744 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard Hoagland was on the Art Bell program again. He says that one those rocket scientists at NASA promised him a high resolution, steroscopic image of the formation in question. Now the image is unavailable. He is suggesting that we all contact Sen. John McCain From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 23:54:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA22792; Mon, 21 May 2001 23:53:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:53:47 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 01:53:59 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: effects of heat on water Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"IdFlc.0.1a5.upW2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42740 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If I had a circuit delivering 2 KW of electricity to a heater immersed in a quart of water. The electricity would have a BTU equivalent of 3148 X 2 = 6296 per hour or 105 BTU's per minute. One quart of water water would weigh more or less 2 pounds. So if we had cold tap water of say 50 degrees F and powered that 2 KW heater for one minute the water should warm up to 100 degrees or body temperature in one minute. The reason I'm thinking about this is because of a demonstration I witnessed in the early '90's. Stan Meyer had an automobile alternator powered by a fractional HP electrical motor. Now I know the alternator takes a lot of power because I can hear the engine in my car pull down when the lights go on. I have been told that the alternator can consume 5 gas HP. A 20 While the circuit that was feeding the motor could deliver 2 KW continuously, the motor was probably only capable of consuming .5 KW. The alternator was powering an electrolyzer which was producing a jet of Brown's Gas which combusted in a flame about the size of the one produced by a cigarette lighter. I'm thinking about the flame that my gas stove produces. I'm thinking that inorder to heat a quart of water from cold to body temperature in four minutes, I'd have to turn the burner fairly low. but the combined flame would have to be several times that of a cigarette lighter. That flame has many jets of gas, each one the size of that flame produced by Stan's electrolyzer. Consequently I was not impressed with Stan's demonstration. Do you agree? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 23:54:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA22882; Mon, 21 May 2001 23:53:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:53:58 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B08255A.275BD8D3@ix.netcom.com> References: <3B08255A.275BD8D3@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 01:53:59 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity of Mind Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"ninET1.0.Ab5.3qW2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42742 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms wrote I agree, OTOH, I don't know how else an athiest could view life. > >This is rather like the argument that if enough monkeys were given >typewriters, sooner or later they would write all of the world's literature. >The argument rests on the false assumption that the world as we know it will >always be the same and that the past and the future depend on a chance >combination of known events. > > >Ed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 21 23:55:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA23646; Mon, 21 May 2001 23:54:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:54:47 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 01:55:10 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Search for local terms, sayings...: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"aOgV5.0.On5.tqW2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42745 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I am looking for turns of phrase relating to dunder-headed-ness or >fool sayings.... Not playing with a full deck More loose screws than a hardware store He's been smoking something that he shouldn't A few bricks short of a load The elevator doesn't go all the way to the top Not the brightest bulb on the tree Not the sharpest tool in the shed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 04:58:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA18414; Tue, 22 May 2001 04:57:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 04:57:31 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c0e2d4$34a449a0$07668bac@default> From: "Thomas D. Clark" To: "vortex" Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" Subject: Pyramid Power=16 Levels of the Mind=16 Physical Dimensions=12 Zodiac Houses Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 08:30:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 X-Apparently-From: ConexTom@aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Gebmp1.0.eV4.hGb2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42746 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Pyramid Power=16 Levels of the Mind=16 Physical Dimensions=12 Zodiac Houses I will describe below two types of pyramids and the physical, mental, and Zodiac relationships for each type pyramid below: Then I will list some Physical Conclusions from the Pyramids. This information was synthesized from various internets articles, books and emails. 4 Sided Pyramid with Square base(QuadraHedron): A four sided pyramid where each side is a triangle and which has with a square base may be associated with the gravatic 4th dimensional ether energies, the 12 levels of the conscious and unconscious mind, and the 12 houses of the Zodiac as follows: Triangular side 1 of the pyramid facing north:(Metaphysical Spirit Principle)(Symmetry/General) (Canada/Scandinavia)Jupiter Left corner of the base of the triangle = Sagittarius (Sage/Nov/Horse) =Light (Father) Energy Right corner of the base of the triangle = Pisces (Poet/Feb/Fish)=Space (Mother)(Conservation) Top corner or synthesis = Aries (Warrior/March/Ram)=Electric Charge(Son) Triangular side 2 of the pyramid facing east:(Microphysical Particles, Elements) (Symmetric/Spirit/General) (Space/Virtual)(Asia)Mercury Left corner of the base of the triangle = Virgo (Inventor/August)=Quarks/Glueons Right corner of the base of the triangle = Gemini (Artist-Shaman/May/Twins)=Leptons/IVB's Top corner or synthesis = Libra (Equality/Justice/September/Venus?)= Number/Charge Triangular side 3 of the pyramid facing south::(Astrophysical, Stars, Galaxies)(Asymmetric/Specific/Body) Mars, Moon Long Range Forces (Africa) Left corner of the base of the triangle = Cancer (Female/June)=Gravity=Holy Ghost= Life Right corner of the base of the triangle = Scorpio (Life, Death, Physician, Health./Oct)=Time=Man=Evolution Top corner or synthesis = Leo (Male/Lion/July)=Mass(Son) Triangular side 4 of the pyramid facing West:(Biophysical, Life, Mind) (Asymmetric/Specific/Body) (Time/Real)Venus/Saturn Short Range Forces (United States) Left corner of the base of the triangle = Taraus(Architect/April) =Baryons, Mesons, Atomic Nuclei Right corner of the base of the triangle = Acquires(Truth Seeker/January/Water)= Electrons, Neutrino, Electron Shell Top corner or synthesis = Capricorn (Justice/Dec/Wolf/Goat)=Color Charge Top of the Pyramid= Leo/Aries/Capricorn/Libra=Sun, Mars, Satrun, Venus Axis of pyramid Axis 1 Sun Signs (Sagitarious, Leo, Cancer) Planets(Jupiter, Sun, Moon) Physics(Light,Mass, Gravity) Axis 2 Sun Signs (Pisces, Aries, Scorpio) Planets(Jupiter, Mars, Mars) Physics(Space, Electric Charge, Time) Axis 3Sun Signs (Virgo, Capricorn, Taurus) Planets(Mercury, Satrun, Venus) Physics(Quarks, Gluons, Color Change, Atomic Nucleus) Axis 4Sun Signs (Gemini, Libra, Aquarius) Planets(Mercury, Venus, Saturn) Physics(IVB's, Leptons, Identity Charge, Electron Shell) Men=Northwest Women=SouthEast Square base of the Triangle(4) Corners ? Imaginary mirror image of the pyramid into other imaginary dimensions (Reverse Pyramid) Each of the triangular sides of the pyramid may have a positive and negative pole for each corner of the base of each triangle and a neutral synthesis pole for the top corner of the triangle. This give 12 poles which may correspond to the 12 levels of the conscious and subconscious mind as follows: Levels 1 to 4: (Conscious Mind) 1.Personal Conscious Mind (Soul/Spirit/Memes/Genes) (Group Collective Subconscious) 2.Family (Race) 3. Friends 4. Associates/Enemies (Business, Politics, Religions, Myths, History, Secret Societies) Levels 5to 8 5. City (Governments Begin Here) 6. State 7. Nation 8. International Levels 9 to 12 9. Planet 10.Solar System 11.Galaxy 12.Universe Levels 12 to 16 (Base or imaginary mirror images of the pyramid, Ether, Gravitic Forces) 13.Higher Dimensions 14.Parralel Universes 15.Other Universes 16.GodHead/Paradise There are also 16 physical dimensions which may be associated with the 16 poles of the pyramid: Dimensions 1, 2, & 3 : Space (Length, Width, Height) Light & ElectroMagnetic Waves(Horizontal Waves)(Electron/Proton) Dimension 4 to 9 (Time (Tachyeons, Rotations of time or multiplication rotations) 4th - curved spiral of time (6 possible rotations and mathematical multiplication's- Quaternions) 5th - radius of one loop of time of the spiral 6th - distance between spirals of time 7,8,9 - 3 special dimensions of intertimespace Dimensions 10 to 16 (Gravity (Falling together) Waves/Vertical Waves/Feelings /Quarks(Gravitons6 ) (Neutrons)) 10th(Gravitons/Quarks) (6 possible rotations and mathematical multiplication's - Quaternions) 11th (Radius of one loop of gravity of the spiral) 12th (Distance between spirals of gravity) 13,14,15 3 spacial dimensions of intergavity space 16 ? Ether(God) A 3 Sided Pyramid with a Triangular Base:(TetraHedron) The Base of the Pyramid North = Information (I) (Life, Humanity) SouthWest = Entropy (E)(Entropy)(Intrinsic Motion)(Holy Ghost)(Dimensionality) Raw Energy, Conservation, Motion, Action ,Work, Change SouthEast=Symmetry (S)(Bound Energy) (Son)(Matter)(Charge/Metric Conservation, Symmetry Breaking, Debts)(Omega Point) Top of the Pyramid = Conservation of Energy (C) (Father)(Free Energy) Side EC = Light Space Positive Entropy, Velocity C Thermodynamics, Heat, Electromagnetism Side CI = Ideal Forms, Fractals, Truth, Archetypes Historical Space Time, Akashic Record Physical Constants, Genes, Memes Human Culture, Salvation, Heaven, Soul Holy Writ, Spiritual Domain, General Systems, Memory, Language Side CS = Charge, Particle, AntiParticle, Vacuum Quantum Mechanics, DNA Chromosomes, Replication Side ES = Gravity, Negative Entropy, Galaxies, Stars, Planets, Velocity G, Gravity Creating Time and the Solar System, Relativity, Inertial Forces, Momentum, Spin Side EI = Time, Evolution, Time Statistics Probability Evolution of Spirit, Karmic Cycle, Reincarnation, Statistical Mechanics, Communication Theory, Sex, Mutation, Reproduction, Selection Side SI = Beauty, Double Helix, DNA, Life Savior, Incarnation, Church, Communion Triangle CIS = Metaphysical Realm, Upper Spacetime Grail Triangle CES Microphysical Realm Upper Particle Grail Triangle CIE Biophysical Realm Lower Particle Grail Triangle EIS Astrophysical Realm Lower Spacetime Grail Physical Conclusion from the above Pyramids of Power Matter/Mass/Inertia=Energy (Potential)(Gravitational Energy = pulling apart, spaced away from itself against the gravitational pull inward, winding up against gravity), Electrical Energy(winding up against electricity, push like charges towards each other with work to get more mass) space/time ~ electricity/gravity~mass(particles wound up against space, spaced in against the electrical field, and spaced out against the gravity field /energy) ~Geometry Causation Transformation of energy from one form to another Changes in the form of energy (Amount of energy seems to be unchangeable) Hydrogen falls together into matter (galaxies, stars, people), gravity is first converted into kinetic energy in the falling, kinetic energy is converted into radiation when the hydrogen falls together into matter, radiation is converted into electricity and magnetism by objects Changeless(Inertia(Movement/Mass))/Infinite(Electricity)/Und ivided(Gravity))(Energy)>Apparational Causation (Magic/Illusion)>Changing/Finite/Divided(Forms of Energy) Electrical energy increases as the electron gets smaller(Infinity) and decreases as the electron gets bigger(0). Electrical Energy= Tendency to go back to the infinite Gravitational Energy = Tendency to go back to the undivided. Electrogravitational energy = rest mass Energy is the consequence of apparition= yearning for liberation in the apparently finite, the yearning for the undivided in the apparently divided. Yearing for the changeless in the apparently changing. Space is not that which separates the many but rather the one. Space is not that in which we see the finite, there is not finite, space is that in which the infinite appears as small, every electrical particle wants to become infinite, Time is not that in which we see change but in which the changeless seems to change What is real and what is make believe What lies beyond the Universe(Changeless, Infinite, Undivided) Beyond time (change) Changeless Beyond space (Finite, Divided) Infinite Undivided Kinetic Energy( Radiation, Electricity, Magnetism, Nuclear Energy(Small)) Spirals are winding of electricity, and gravity in time/space.. Gravity creates time by consuming space Cosmic balance 1 = 2= 3 1.Light Space Positive Entropy Expansion, Cooling Symmetry Conservation Less gravity mass and more space Male 2.Mass, Gravity, 3. Matter=Information Time Negative Entropy Contraction, Heating Raw Energy Conservation More gravity mass more time Female Gather/Unit/Fire/Positive Entropy/Electromagnetics/Light Space Repeat/Pair/Water/Conservation/Gravitation/Negative Entropy Share/GroupField/Earth/Symmetry/Strong Transform/Emergent New Unit/Air/Information/Weak Total Electrical Charge of the Universe = 0 Separation between two events (Time+, Space- = 0 (Neutral)) Stars (Universe is made of Hydrogen (Electrical Particles(Protons+, Electrons - =0(Neutrons))) 4 Hydrogens>1Helium>3Heliums>1 Carbon>4 Helium>1Oxygen,5 Heliums>1Neon 6Helums >Magnisium> 7 Heliums>1 Silicon>8 Heliums>1 Sulfur> 9 Helums>1Argon >10 Helums>1Calcium >11 Heliums>1 Titanium> 12 Heliums> 1Chromium >13 Heliums>1 Iron.. 92 Elements Respectively, President, Thomas Clark Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc., RHF Buisenss web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/ Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal New Age Media Productions at http://www.rhfweb.com/newage Email: tom@rhfweb.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 07:01:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19690; Tue, 22 May 2001 06:59:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 06:59:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0A70FF.516BAE76@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:00:31 -0400 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the image on mars References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"w8WYc1.0.ap4.D3d2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42747 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > > Richard Hoagland was on the Art Bell program again. He says that one > those rocket scientists at NASA promised him a high resolution, > steroscopic image of the formation in question. Now the image is > unavailable. He is suggesting that we all contact Sen. John McCain It wasn't Hoagland's action; but, that of FACETS. Here's the letter: Terry <><><><><><><><><><> National Aeronautics and Space Administration Headquarters Washington, DC 20546-0001 May 11, 2001 Mr. Peter A. Gersten Attorney at Law P.O. Box 2443 Sedona, AZ 86339 Dear Mr. Gersten: In response to your letter to NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin dated March 16, 2001, from the Formal Action Committee for Extra-Terrestrial Studies (FACETS), NASA has fully and openly distributed by means of public web-sites all images obtained of the Cydonia 'face' feature under question. To date, more than 90,000 images of Mars have been acquired by the Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) Mars Orbiter Camera (MOC), as well as hundreds of millions of laser altimeter topographic measurements and infrared spectra. None of the images acquired to date by the MGS/MOC system have been withheld and indeed, several recently (April 8, 2001) acquired images, including stereoscopic coverage of the Cydonia feature under question, have been released via multiple public web sites. In this case, NASA responded to the request by FACETS (presented in the letter by Peter Gersten to Mr. Goldin on March 16, 2001) by initiating a complex set of MGS spacecraft operations to ensure that the highest possible resolution images of the Cydonia 'face' feature were acquired. These spacecraft operations require special care and only a few can be performed each day. In addition to 1.5 m per pixel (about 5 foot resolution) resolution images of the Cydonia feature, NASA released a stereo 'anaglyph' of the feature that allows a viewer with colored 3D glasses to view the feature in 3D. This is the first release of a 3D image of any features on Mars acquired in this resolution. Furthermore, NASA has assembled public web site access of ALL MGS images acquired of the Cydonia Face feature since the start of MGS scientific observations. Given the challenges of imaging any feature on Mars (ie., NASA has yet to find the second Viking Lander specifically), this has involved considerable effort. The newly released Cydonia observations reveal an intriguing mesa-like feature not unlike those found in the Southwestern USA, with geologic features than can be attributed to processes in multiple places on Mars in which isolated topographic features (remnants) have been observed. NASA encourages the development of multiple working hypothesis models for the formation of such features and in this case the new observations have been publicly released to permit further debate about controversial and enigmatic landforms on Mars. Dr. Michael Malin, the Principal Investigator of the MGS Mars Orbiter Camera, has provided his experienced interpretation of the new images, but NASA welcomes additional opinions. Indeed, NASA promotes innovative analysis of such spacecraft data by competitive peer-review, as well as via open discussion in public meetings and by all members of the interested-public. In the letter to Mr. Goldin by the members of FACETS, there are statements that are not consistent with published (and hence peer-reviewed) results from scientific literature. NASA does not know of any statements by Sir Arthur C. Clarke that suggest ėÖpretty convincing proof of the existence of large forms of like on Mars,î nor are there any in the extant, peer-reviewed literature. NASA favors exploring the Universe for evidence of biological processes and aspects of the newly restructured Mars Exploration Program support a variety of approaches for searching for evidence of biological processes on Mars. NASA has responded to the requests of the FACETS group in exactly the fashion requested in the March 16 letter, by targeting the Cydonia feature under question will (sic) the highest possible resolution, and most optimized illumination, as well as in stereo, to make available observations to the general public in a responsive manner. These data are released and available for interpretation by the FACETS members. They were so recently acquired from the MGS that there may have appeared to have been a delay in their release, but this was not the case. When an image is acquired at Mars it must be relayed to Earth via a specific process and then reconstructed on the ground before it can be posted on a public web site. This was accomplished at the end of last week (by April 19), and the data released on that date. Thus on the basis of the requests made in the March 16 letter addressed to Mr. Goldin by Peter Gersten, the following items have been met or exceeded as follows: (1) all images of the Cydonia area have been released on the internet (via http://www.msss.com and other public NASA sites via JPL) (2) stereoscopic, full resolution (1.5 m/pixel) MOC images were acquired at optimized illumination conditions of the Cydonia features and have been released via the internet (3) NASA awaits a specific list of requests for targeting the five additional areas of Mars from a list submitted by FACETS, but no such list has yet been received. NASA welcomes a variety of opinions about the origin of the enigmatic features on Mars as observed by the instruments aboard the Mars Global Surveyor. NASA relies upon the peer-review process and competitive peer review to fund analysis of the data it acquires and awaits newly published (or proposals to undertake such) interpretations of the Cydonia ėfaceî feature. At present the Scientific advisory committees that formally advise NASA have not interpreted the Cydonia feature as evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence. NASA will continue to explore all possibilities for the origin of landscapes on Mars using the open process it has traditionally utilized, as well as by timely release of all images acquired by operational spacecraft, including the MGS. NASA thanks the members of FACETS for their continuing interest in the Cydonia region and welcomes additional comments. Sincerely, Edward J. Weiler Associate Administrator for Space Science From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 10:30:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA30659; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:29:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:29:17 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c0e2dc$12a416c0$d08f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:15:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"bC3iE3.0.rU7.j7g2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42748 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Could be that the probes are icing up: Fg = 6.67E-11*2.2E30*260*b/R^2 where b is the mass of ice buildup causing the "slowdown"i.e., it's nucleating about a kilo of ice per AU traversed. IOW, Pioneer 10 may return to the Sun as a Comet Nucleus sometime in the future, say about the time of the second return of Halley's Comet or thereabouts .:-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 11:59:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA31387; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:54:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:54:34 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010522142528.00a8c9d0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:54:33 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing--additional point In-Reply-To: <001f01c0e24e$2f8efb80$96c21004@hppav> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010521101908.028bb050@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"agfrR3.0.Lg7.fNh2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42750 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff Kooistra wrote: >Cloning is a terrible example with which to back up your point. Not only >was cloning predicted long ago . . . Yes, but many experts said it was theoretically impossible. Biology experts pay no attention what is predicted or portrayed in science fiction. >For that matter, "Dolly" (the sheep was named Dolly, right?) >was not universally accepted as being a real clone. That's right. There are always skeptics, not matter how convincing the evidence. >It wasn't possible to just look at Dolly and say, "Ah yes, a clone!" It was, actually. She was the only one of that color in that farm. Ian Wilmut, the guy who cloned her, was frustrated by rumors and doubts about her origin. He said, "look around here, there is not another sheep like her in the pen." Her surrogate mother was a different color, and her biological "mother" died before she was born. >Now, I'll grant that heavier than air flight seems to fit your model, but >what other machines, discoveries, and inventions have you in mind? Steam engines, photographs, telegraphs, phonographs, incandescent lights, radio, radio over the horizon, antibiotics, atom bombs, semiconductors, lasers, and even high-tech windmills. There are always experts and textbooks with proof that some new claim cannot exist. In most cases, the experts are right. The discoverers often have little more than a hunch, or hope without logical basis. What made Marconi think he could radio across the Atlantic? He had no idea the ionosphere existed. (The Wrights were a rare exception: they had rigorous mathematical and physical proof before they launched the first airplane. Without it, they would have been killed.) - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 12:07:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA31314; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:54:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:54:31 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010522135458.029217d8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:24:52 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing In-Reply-To: <002f01c0e243$dd4bea40$83290404@hppav> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010521101908.028bb050@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_7SeQ3.0.6f7.dNh2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42749 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff Kooistra wrote: > > patent. The government never hands out a patent easily. It always contests > > claims. . . . >Jed, I want to compare this with your comments from below which were: > > > >(Me) You can actually get a patent if you obfuscate your claims a >bit--this is how > > >Roy Shelton managed to get a patent on a Newman device even though he had >no > > >working model. . . . > >Well, which is it? Do they not hand out patents easily or do they? The >Shelton patent was a complete sham from end to end, and an obvious rip-off >of Newman's work . . . I see no contradiction here. The government usually makes it difficult to get a patent, and I think that is generally a good thing. Perhaps the P.O. gone overboard with CF, making it too difficult. In the case of the Shelton patent, I guess someone failed to do his job properly. They should not have let that slip through, if it is unfair to Newman. No doubt the P.O. screws up sometimes. >Jed, this is what makes it frustrating to talk with you. It is NOT >necessarily dead simple to prove that a working model is not a trick. I meant a working model of the gadget under discussion in this thread, which supposedly produces electricity with no moving parts. I know that an effect like a CF is very difficult to demonstrate conclusively. No one on earth knows that better than I do! But the >sorts of raids that the "black helicopters" are supposed to run are in the >dead of night, unexpected, and I guess quick. Yeah, right. With the finesse we have seen so often at the CIA and the FBI. They cannot even tunnel underneath the Russian Embassy without alerting the whole of Washington, DC. (Everyone in that neighborhood knew about the tunnel, just as I have always known the "Pentagon in the Mountain" at Raven Rock.) If there were black helicopters, the Washington Post would have published an expose of them a long time ago. > So confiscation of cameras >would be mandatory. (If someone said the men in black just asked for the >film nicely, I'd assume he had not been raided.) Actually, knowing our government and spy agencies, they probably would be very polite, although insistent. >Jed, the internet is rife with various and sundry anti-gravity >devices--where have you been? It is also rife with over-unity machines, CF >claims, and even Rife machines. All that would happen if an inventor did as >you say is that his device would disappear into the background mush just >like everyone else's would . . . I am assuming that the machine is real, and there are other people in the world who know that, and would be anxious to download the information. If the machine were not real, the government would not hear about it, or bother to raid the laboratory. They can't go after every fruitcake who claims over-unity or anti-gravity! I am saying that genuine, valuable information which other people know about can be made public via the Internet quickly, before the government can crack down. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 12:08:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA32544; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:58:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:58:39 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00f201c0afc9$65b630a0$8db4bfa8@computer> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:55:45 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Raman Effect and The Force on an Absorber Due to Light Irradiation Resent-Message-ID: <"j2eQw.0.Qy7.VRh2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42751 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > IOW, when light shines on a good absorber, part of the energy of a photon > with momentum mc = Ephot/c can be given to a molecule/electron of the > absorber which has a new momentum mv' which can give it a thrust much > greater than that achievable by photon "pressure". ***{If I am following you, it is precisely the transfer of momentum as per your description, above, that is defined as photon pressure. The notion, in fact, arose via an analogy to gas pressure. As George Gamow put it many years ago: "If light waves have mechanical momentum, then on being reflected from a mirror, they should exert pressure in the same way that molecules do when they reflect from the walls of a container and cause gas pressure." [See *Physics: Foundations and Frontiers*, Gamow & Cleveland, pg. 301.] He goes on to note that the pressure exerted on a unit area of a mirror in unit time by the reflection of light has the value P = 2(E/c^2)c = 2mV, which is twice the change in the momentum of the incident particles and, thus, exactly the same as the expression for gas pressure. (V is the average velocity of particle motion.) Since the process that you described *is* photon pressure, there is no way it can "give thrust much greater than that achievable by photon 'pressure'." On the other hand, if you are referring to increases in the wavelength of a photon consequent to striking an atomic system (the Compton effect), the energy associated with the change in wavelength is *subtracted* from the energy that changes the momentum of the target system, and, thus, *reduces* the thrust. (The energy that changes the state of excitation of the atoms/molecules within the target materials has to come from somewhere.) Thus the mass that must be used to compute the change in momentum of the target system is the mass of the outgoing photon, not the mass of the incoming photon. (You assume that the incoming photon had the mass of the outgoing photon, and compute the change in photon momentum on that basis.) --Mitchell Jones}*** > Regards, Frederick > > A New Type of Secondary Radiation > > > C. V. Raman and K. S. Krishnan, Nature, 121(3048), 501, March 31, 1928 > > If we assume that the X-ray scattering of the 'unmodified' type observed > by Prof. Compton corresponds to the normal > or average state of the atoms and molecules ***{"Unmodified" scattering refers to the case where the incident photon rebounds from a collision with an orbital electron with the same wavelength it had before the collision. When this happens, no energy was absorbed by the orbital electron--which means: it did not jump to a higher orbit and was not dislodged from the atomic system. Of course, since momentum is the product of a vector (V) and a scalar (m), it is itself a vector quantity, and thus when the direction of the photon is altered, some work is done. That work, however, is done on the atomic system as a whole, by changing its momentum *as a whole* rather than by altering the state of one of the electrons which it contains. In such cases, the energy transfer is entirely in the form of phonons. --MJ}*** , while the 'modified' > scattering of altered wave-length corresponds to their > fluctuations from that state ***{"Modified" scattering refers to the case where the incident photon has, when it rebounds from a collision with an orbital electron, a different wavelength than it had before the collision. When this happens, energy was absorbed by the orbital electron--i.e., it either jumped to a higher orbit, or else it was entirely dislodged from the atomic system of which it had been a part. In this case, some of the work done by the photon changed the momentum of the atomic system, and some of that work changed the state of the atomic system (by either dislodging an electron or raising it to a higher energy level. In this case, all of the energy is *not* transferred in the form of phonons. --MJ}*** , it would follow that we should expect also > in the case of ordinary light two types of > scattering, one determined by the normal optical properties of the atoms > or molecules, and another representing the > effect of their fluctuations from their normal state. ***{State changes are only possible in cases where the target atoms or molecules absorb at the frequencies of the incident light. Compton used x-rays precisely because they had enough energy to bring about state changes in the target materials. As the energies of the incident photons decline, one would think they would lose their ability to do that, and that a larger and larger proportion of the energy transfer would act to change momentum, and less and less would act to change the state of particles within the system. --MJ}*** It accordingly > becomes necessary to test whether this is actually the > case. The experiments we have made have confirmed this anticipation, and > shown that in every case in which light is > scattered by the molecules in dust-free liquids or gases, the diffuse > radiation of the ordinary kind, having the same > wave-length as the incident beam, is accompanied by a modified scattered > radiation of degraded frequency. ***{That is very interesting. It would suggest that molecular absorption continues at a wide range of frequencies, below the range at which atomic absorption ceases. Is this true? --MJ}*** > The new type of light scattering discovered by us naturally requires very > powerful illumination for its observation. In > our experiments, a beam of sunlight was converged successively by a > telescope objective of 18 cm. aperture and 230 > cm. focal length, and by a second lens was placed the scattering material, > which is either a liquid (carefully purified by > repeated distillation in vacuo) or its dust-free vapour. To detect the > presence of a modified scattered radiation, the > method of complementary light-filters was used. A blue-violet filter, when > coupled with a yellow-green filter and > placed in the incident light, completely extinguished the track of the > light through the liquid or vapour. The > reappearance of the track when the yellow filter is transferred to a place > between it and the observer's eye is proof of > the existence of a modified scattered radiation. ***{When a blue and yellow filter are in the path between the beam source and the liquid, all visible photons will be blocked, and the beam will not be visible. If the yellow filter is then removed, yellow light will pass through, and the beam track will be visible in the liquid. And if we then place the yellow filter between our eyes and find that we can still see a beam track through the liquid, it must, indeed, indicate that photons of altered wavelength are being scattered off of the molecules of the liquid, because if they were not altered away from the original yellow, we would not be able to see them through the yellow filter. --MJ}*** Spectroscopic > confirmation is also available. > > Some sixty different common liquids have been examined in this way, and > every one of them showed the effect in > greater or less degree. That the effect is a true scattering, and secondly > by its polarisation, which is in many cases quire > strong and comparable with the polarisation of the ordinary scattering. > The investigation is naturally much more > difficult in the case of gases and vapours, owing to the excessive > feebleness of the effect. Nevertheless, when the > vapour is of sufficient density, for example with ether or amylene, the > modified scattering is readily demonstrable. ***{OK, so some of the energy of a beam of light goes to change the states of the electrons or of the molecules in the target material. To the extent that this happens, the momentum change/light pressure produced by that beam is degraded. To calculate the true pressure, therefore, it is necessary to use the wavelengths of the outgoing photons, rather than that of the incoming photons. Thus to the extent that this effect (the Raman/Compton effect) happens, light pressure is reduced. Hmm. That is a possible answer to the Pioneer anomaly: the JPL calculations are probably failing to take Raman scattering and Compton scattering into account--which means they are expecting photon pressure from the sun to be larger than, in fact, it really is. Thus they expect the Pioneer probes to be further from the sun by now than, in fact, they really are. --Mitchell Jones}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 13:50:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07107; Tue, 22 May 2001 13:46:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:46:12 -0700 Message-ID: <003601c0e2f7$954c9f00$d08f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: The Raman Effect and The Force on an Absorber Due to Light Irradiation Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:43:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"-Wpe51.0.uk1.J0j2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42752 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitchell Jones" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 1:55 PM Subject: Re: The Raman Effect and The Force on an Absorber Due to Light Irradiation Mitchell Jones wrote: >> Frederick Sparber wrote: > > IOW, when light shines on a good absorber, part of the energy of a photon > > with momentum mc = Ephot/c can be given to a molecule/electron of the > > absorber which has a new momentum mv' which can give it a thrust much > > greater than that achievable by photon "pressure". Observe the effect of the Solar Wind/Photon pressure on a Comet out past the orbit of Jupiter. > > ***{OK, so some of the energy of a beam of light goes to change the states > of the electrons or of the molecules in the target material. To the extent > that this happens, the momentum change/light pressure produced by that beam > is degraded. To calculate the true pressure, therefore, it is necessary to > use the wavelengths of the outgoing photons, rather than that of the > incoming photons. Thus to the extent that this effect (the Raman/Compton > effect) happens, light pressure is reduced. > > Hmm. That is a possible answer to the Pioneer anomaly: the JPL calculations > are probably failing to take Raman scattering and Compton scattering into > account--which means they are expecting photon pressure from the sun to be > larger than, in fact, it really is. Thus they expect the Pioneer probes to > be further from the sun by now than, in fact, they really are. Right. Regards, Frederick > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 14:07:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13295; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:03:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:03:18 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000001c0e2dc$12a416c0$d08f85ce@computer> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:00:38 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"wvRoh2.0.eF3.MGj2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42753 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Could be that the probes are icing up: > >Fg = 6.67E-11*2.2E30*260*b/R^2 where b is the mass of ice buildup causing the >"slowdown"i.e., it's nucleating >about a kilo of ice per AU traversed. > >IOW, Pioneer 10 may return to the Sun as a Comet Nucleus sometime in the >future, say >about the time of >the second return of Halley's Comet or thereabouts .:-) ***{I like the above idea better than any of the ones that have been proposed so far. The reason: it is logical to suppose that there exists, outside of the region swept clean by the planetary disc, a vast, tenuous gas cloud, rotating at the appropriate rate to resist the sun's gravity, and consisting of water, methane, and ammonia molecules. Such a hypothesis explains both the presence of gas giants in the outer solar system, and the vast numbers of comets that have been inferred to exist in the Kuiper belt and the Oort cloud. If such a gas cloud exists, by the way, then the small comet theory is probably true as well, because the nucleating process would not apply merely to deep space probes, but to every speck of rock and metal in the region beyond Pluto. Result: there must be mind-boggling numbers of small comets out there, and when the enormous cloud containing them is disturbed by a passing star or by what I have termed a "rogue planet" (the accretion process that, ultimately, produces a star, must, in all cases whatsoever, first produce a planet), the inner solar system would be bombarded by billions of them. The appeal of the notion, of course, does not necessarily mean it must be true. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** >Regards, Frederick ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 14:20:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18804; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:17:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:17:01 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:20:36 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" References: <003901c0e220$b5436e60$e68f85ce@computer> In-Reply-To: <003901c0e220$b5436e60$e68f85ce@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052217203600.00885@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA18762 Resent-Message-ID: <"uJOe63.0.eb4.CTj2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42754 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 21 May 2001 11:05, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Well now. What's going on out there? > > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html > ---------------------------------------- Content-Type: application/octet-stream; charset="iso-8859-1"; name="CNN.com - Puzzling hyper-gravity proves weighty mystery - May 21, 2001.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: ---------------------------------------- At one time, it was said that the probes were accelerating; now publications are quoting sources stating the opposite. Which is true. Previousely two, and now three supposedly are affected. If all three, then suppose there are more terms to the gravity force rules than once thought, or suppose that as the probes pass by more mass on their way out of the system, then instead of aiding the fugitives as before, they are now retarding them; each ever so slightly vectorially in its own way. One source said that the vector of decelleration pointed at the sun. Really?! Or was that just the sum of many supperposed smaller vectors, and what was the deviation in true solar radial direction of the return decelleration vector in arc microseconds? Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 14:38:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA24479; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:33:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:33:31 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:37:05 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <003901c0e220$b5436e60$e68f85ce@computer> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052217370501.00885@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA24436 Resent-Message-ID: <"eTipC2.0.N-5.gij2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42755 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 21 May 2001 19:26, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 5:42 PM > >Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly > > > >Robin wrote: > > > > > >> In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 21 May 2001 13:05:48 > >> -0500: > >> > >> >Well now. What's going on out there? > >> > > >> > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html > >> > >> Has anyone considered friction with space dust, gasses, plasma etc.? > > > >Don't need it. This is the M&M "Aether Drag" in operation. The couldn't > >find it > >on/near the Earth where the Earth's gravity field is creating the "Aether". > > ***{I assume you are talking about the Michelson and Morley experiment. If > so, I must point out that the slowing of light in one thing, and the > slowing of a 260 lb space probe is quite another. The Pioneer probes are > currently moving slower than Earth, since when it swings around in its > orbit so that it is going in the same direction as one of them, the > distance of separation declines. Thus we are not talking about relativistic > velocities here, and aether drag on one of these gadgets should be > negligible. > > One of the things I considered was a doppler effect on the probe's radio > signal exerted by an aether flow toward the sun, as Ross Tessien used to > talk about. However, that would be in the wrong direction: it would > exaggerate the redshift, thereby causing Earth-bound observers to think the > recession velocity of the probe was anomalously large, rather than > anomalously small. > > My own view, on the other hand, has always been that the direction of > aether flow along the planetary disc is *away* from the sun rather than > toward it. The reason: I would expect the sun to act like a gigantic > squirrel-cage blower, sucking aether in at its poles and throwing it out > along its equator. That would give a lesser redshift for the Pioneer space > probes and, thus, would cause the JPL team to calculate a lower recession > velocity than expected, thereby possibly explaining the anomaly. > > Or maybe not. :-) > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >Regards, Frederick > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers Now for the silly season. Just suppose somebody out there is playing with us. Jerking us around for a little fun to see how we react or just what ideas we come up with in our public and private media. It may be a way for earth foreigners to test us. Far fetched? Now just what did happen to all those Mars probes that got 'ett by da Galactic Ghoul' to put it in the terms of some unknown NASA researcher involved in them. How would these stellar immigrants know? Maybe thery are already here! Listening to our television and cable systems would only be slightly less challenging than decoding our internet commos.......and yes they do go through the air somewhere on their way to their destinations. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 14:53:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29578; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:47:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:47:19 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:50:49 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" References: <000401c0e27b$29e963f0$1f962640@bear> In-Reply-To: <000401c0e27b$29e963f0$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052217504902.00885@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA29541 Resent-Message-ID: <"s3pLq2.0.4E7.dvj2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42756 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 21 May 2001 21:53, Matthew Rogers wrote: > The other options not discussed, is the space curvature phenomenon, and the > heliopause. > > If space is flatter , with less curve due to the gravity well of the solar > system, then by all appearances at those distances, with us looking up out > of curved space, the space probes > Would appear to going slower than calculated for the following reasons. > > The Speed of light is not constant, the medium in which light exists > determines its speed. Ergo, a Prism will bend light, or water, making light > change directions. > > At some point, the gravity of the Sun no longer changes the shape of space > around it, at a point to be measurable, and then the apparent speed of light > would increase. > > Light always follows the shortest path through space, but is limited by the > geodesic shape of the medium within it travels. In the medium which is less > dense, it travels faster. If you make a better vacuum, with less gravity as > well as medium, ( water/air/vacuum ), light will travel faster. > Both the Pioneer spacecraft have left the heliopause, the area around the > sun where the solar wind meets the local galactic space. The medium has > changed, nothing more. This Phenomenon is normal and should have been > expected and noticed sooner. > > Matthew Rogers > Prove it.. If the above is true, then the universe may not be the size that we have 'calculated'. Also, if light is faster where the probes are, then the probes' signals will take less time to get to us, making it appear that they are closer than they would otherwise be. That would be perhaps interpreted as the probes 'slowing'! Standing Bear........................autodynamics anyone? try http://www.autodynamics.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 7:28 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly > > Since Peter Fred and Nick Reiter contend that the temperature/heat of a mass > affect > the gravitational force, as these birds get colder they feel a slightly > stronger > gravitational pull: > > Fg = 6.67E-11*2.2E30*(260* b)/R^2) where b is a > temperature/heat mass-change coefficient. > > Remember that they have enough radioisotope in them to power four 40 watt > power > supplies. > > OTOH, they should speed up as the isotope decays and they become lighter. > > Will you buy that? :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > >Robin wrote: > > > > > > > > >> In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 21 May 2001 13:05:48 > > >> -0500: > > >> > > >> >Well now. What's going on out there? > > >> > > > >> > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html > > >> > > >> Has anyone considered friction with space dust, gasses, plasma etc.? > > > > > >Don't need it. This is the M&M "Aether Drag" in operation. The couldn't > > >find it > > >on/near the Earth where the Earth's gravity field is creating the > "Aether". > > > > ***{I assume you are talking about the Michelson and Morley experiment. If > > so, I must point out that the slowing of light in one thing, and the > > slowing of a 260 lb space probe is quite another. The Pioneer probes are > > currently moving slower than Earth, since when it swings around in its > > orbit so that it is going in the same direction as one of them, the > > distance of separation declines. Thus we are not talking about > relativistic > > velocities here, and aether drag on one of these gadgets should be > > negligible. > > > > One of the things I considered was a doppler effect on the probe's radio > > signal exerted by an aether flow toward the sun, as Ross Tessien used to > > talk about. However, that would be in the wrong direction: it would > > exaggerate the redshift, thereby causing Earth-bound observers to think > the > > recession velocity of the probe was anomalously large, rather than > > anomalously small. > > > > My own view, on the other hand, has always been that the direction of > > aether flow along the planetary disc is *away* from the sun rather than > > toward it. The reason: I would expect the sun to act like a gigantic > > squirrel-cage blower, sucking aether in at its poles and throwing it out > > along its equator. That would give a lesser redshift for the Pioneer space > > probes and, thus, would cause the JPL team to calculate a lower recession > > velocity than expected, thereby possibly explaining the anomaly. > > > > Or maybe not. :-) > > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > >Regards, Frederick > > ________________ > > Quote of the month: > > > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you > can > > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 15:36:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA17284; Tue, 22 May 2001 15:33:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:33:23 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: energy receiver of N Tesla Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:33:06 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA17115 Resent-Message-ID: <"Bmc7e.0.vD4.oak2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42757 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to John Schnurer's message of Tue, 22 May 2001 01:06:38 -0400: [snip] > > Dear Folks, > > In text below the Fair Weather Current", abbreviated FWC, an and >does, from time to time reach 150 to 250 volts per meter. > > The currents are VERY VERY small, on the order of 2 to 50 >microvolts on the small side and up to lightning on the high side. [snip] Hi John, Currents are not expressed in volts. Could you be more accurate? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 15:43:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA20107; Tue, 22 May 2001 15:39:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:39:59 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010522181157.00a8d610@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:39:50 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010522135458.029217d8@pop.mindspring.com> References: <002f01c0e243$dd4bea40$83290404@hppav> <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010521101908.028bb050@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_03_8.0.1w4.-gk2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42758 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >I am assuming that the machine is real, and there are other people in the >world who know that, and would be anxious to download the information. If >the machine were not real, the government would not hear about it, or >bother to raid the laboratory. They can't go after every fruitcake who >claims over-unity or anti-gravity! That's a little confusing. What I mean is that the data would have to be extremely compelling to attract attention from the government. The government does not even believe CF. Manpower and resources would only be allocated to suppress a claim with a high level of proof, or many credible eyewitness accounts, or prototypes floating around. No government is large enough to chase down every claim. We know for a fact that many people who make these claims have been at it years without the slightest interference by the government. Some of them, like Correa and Mills, have pretty good evidence, and others have irrefutable evidence. If the black helicopter suppression brigades exist, they are grossly incompetent, since they have left Mills, Mizuno and Storms unmolested. I do not believe they are so smart they can be sure Storms or Mizuno will never find a way to control the reaction and scale up. Data so compelling it convinces the government would also attract attention from other governments, and corporations. If you put it on Internet or started e-mailing it around, word would soon reach a larger audience than the government could suppress. It would be like trying to erase all memory of the "IT" scooter. The world does not work like a third rate thriller novel. Real suppression of innovation by the government exists, naturally. But it is a tedious, mundane everyday event, carried out by grey men wearing suits mumbling into the microphones at physics conferences and congressional budget hearings. It does not call for helicopters, guns, or midnight raids. There is no drama. All it takes is paperwork and maybe a few phone calls to highly placed opinionated newspaper reporters. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 16:39:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA08353; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:37:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:37:47 -0700 Message-ID: <005601c0e318$30cc75c0$a8c21004@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com><5.0.2.1.2.20010521101908.028bb050@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010522142528.00a8c9d0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing--additional point Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:26:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"0TZNT.0.R22.BXl2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42759 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, > >Cloning is a terrible example with which to back up your point. Not only > >was cloning predicted long ago . . . > > Yes, but many experts said it was theoretically impossible. Name one--we can then go one to evaluate whether or not he or she had the requisite expertise in the relevant biology subfield to be considered an expert. > Biology experts pay no attention what is predicted or portrayed in science fiction. What? None of them? You do not know what the reading habits are of "biology experts", let alone whether or not they pay attention to what they read. Many, but certainly not all, scientists in general became interested in science via SF. This includes biologists as well as physicists, chemists, and the rest. Jed, why do you routinely make these kinds of inane comments on subjects about which you nothing? It serves no useful purpose, and it undermines your credibility on everything else you say. Sharing opinions is one thing, but this kind of bubble-headed bluster does nothing but diminish you. > >For that matter, "Dolly" (the sheep was named Dolly, right?) > >was not universally accepted as being a real clone. > > That's right. There are always skeptics, not matter how convincing the > evidence. And there are true believers regardless of how unconvincing the evidence is. Your point was...? > >It wasn't possible to just look at Dolly and say, "Ah yes, a clone!" > It was, actually. She was the only one of that color in that farm. Ian > Wilmut, the guy who cloned her, was frustrated by rumors and doubts about > her origin. He said, "look around here, there is not another sheep like her > in the pen." Her surrogate mother was a different color, and her biological > "mother" died before she was born. And everyone was supposed to know all this just by looking at her, eh? Jed, at least pay attention to what you write. Your first words are: "It was, actually," while the rest of your paragraph explains how it was not. > >Now, I'll grant that heavier than air flight seems to fit your model, but > >what other machines, discoveries, and inventions have you in mind? > > Steam engines, Wrong. > photographs, Wrong. > telegraphs, Wrong. >phonographs, Wrong. >incandescent lights, Wrong. > radio, Wrong. >radio over the horizon, Wrong. >antibiotics, Wrong. >atom bombs, This one fits to some extent, but the time between the relevant discoveries in physics and the birth of the first nuclear reactor was only a few years and so cloaked in secrecy that this is really rather too special a case. >semiconductors, Wrong. > lasers, Wrong. >and even high-tech windmills. Explain what you mean by "high tech windmill." > There are always experts and textbooks with proof that some new claim cannot exist. No--actually there is seldom "proof" that a new claim cannot exist. There were some proofs that heavier than air flight was impossible, but I agree that the Wright's are a good example or what you said. Most of the rest of your list doesn't fit. There was no proof that the phonograph couldn't exist, nor certainly not in the case of lasers. Indeed, lasers were thought to be possible because stimulated emission had been know about for years--it just wasn't quite known how to do it. > In most cases, the experts are right. The discoverers often have little more than a hunch, or > hope without logical basis. This last sentence is nonsense--except in cases of raw serendipity, the discoverers almost always have a pretty sound logical basis to work from. > What made Marconi think he could radio across > the Atlantic? He had no idea the ionosphere existed. As was argued by Tesla, and later demonstrated by Sommerfeld, Marconi actually received ground waves. Be that as it may, what made him think he could send signals over the Atlantic was prior experience in the field of wireless communication, which was extensive and predated Marconi by decades, and even Hertz. The long wavelengths used by Marconi would not have been affected by the ionosphere anyway. As for "any idea about the ionosphere"--well, I'm unsure about the date when the Kennelly (sp?)-Heaviside layer was predicted. Tesla and a host of other radio experimenters certainly knew that signals from lightning strikes could be picked up from fairly large distances away. So, actually, in Marconi's case, he had a pretty good reason to think he could receive signals across the Atlantic, a sound logical basis, and few experts who would have argued the impossibility of it. >(The Wrights were a rare exception: they had rigorous mathematical and physical proof before > they launched the first airplane. Without it, they would have been killed.) No, most discoverers have physical proof (and perhaps mathematical proof to various levels of rigor) prior to their big success. The uniqueness of the Wright's stems from the very public and popular, as well as academic, resistance to the possibility of heavier than air flight. And as far as that goes, some still argue, and not unconvincingly, that the first flight's of the Wright's were not actually "flight", but relied upon ground effect. Anyway, your point is not made. kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 16:39:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA08400; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:37:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:37:56 -0700 Message-ID: <005501c0e318$3013d420$a8c21004@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com><5.0.2.1.2.20010521101908.028bb050@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010522135458.029217d8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:18:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"09h0V3.0.832.JXl2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42760 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, > >Well, which is it? Do they not hand out patents easily or do they? The > >Shelton patent was a complete sham from end to end, and an obvious rip-off > >of Newman's work . . . > > I see no contradiction here. The government usually makes it difficult to > get a patent, and I think that is generally a good thing. Perhaps the P.O. > gone overboard with CF, making it too difficult. In the case of the Shelton > patent, I guess someone failed to do his job properly. They should not have > let that slip through, if it is unfair to Newman. No doubt the P.O. screws > up sometimes. As you stated it, your comments were contradictory; but you have cleared up what I assumed you really meant above so 'nuff said. > >Jed, this is what makes it frustrating to talk with you. It is NOT > >necessarily dead simple to prove that a working model is not a trick. > > I meant a working model of the gadget under discussion in this thread, > which supposedly produces electricity with no moving parts. I know that an > effect like a CF is very difficult to demonstrate conclusively. No one on > earth knows that better than I do! No, even the item in the thread can be faked unless it behaves so hugely anomalously that the effect is undeniable. And if you have that, you don't really need the patent office, as you noted before. > >But the sorts of raids that the "black helicopters" are supposed to run are in the > >dead of night, unexpected, and I guess quick. > > Yeah, right. With the finesse we have seen so often at the CIA and the FBI. > They cannot even tunnel underneath the Russian Embassy without alerting the > whole of Washington, DC. (Everyone in that neighborhood knew about the > tunnel, just as I have always known the "Pentagon in the Mountain" at Raven > Rock.) If there were black helicopters, the Washington Post would have > published an expose of them a long time ago. Wrong examples--I'm talking about with the sort of rapid response used when stealth fighters would crash during the testing days. The area would be cordoned off, everyone would know something happened, but not what, and you'd be left with rumors, which is exactly what we have now with Black Helicopter claims. I also think your faith in the Washington Post is woefully misplaced but I see no point in arguing about it. > >Jed, the internet is rife with various and sundry anti-gravity > >devices--where have you been? It is also rife with over-unity machines, CF > >claims, and even Rife machines. All that would happen if an inventor did as > >you say is that his device would disappear into the background mush just > >like everyone else's would . . . > > I am assuming that the machine is real, and there are other people in the > world who know that, and would be anxious to download the information. In that case, you are not arguing the same position that you were arguing before. kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 16:41:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA09372; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:40:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:40:21 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:46:48 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radioactive materials Yucca Mount. Neutralized. In-Reply-To: <3B0267C0.ED70A7EB@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vQv8-3.0.LI2.aZl2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42761 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear John Berry, The output of the radioactive material is not smooth after excitation...you should see the patent.... the output goes up and then down then up then down... sort of as a bell ringing. J On Wed, 16 May 2001, John Berry wrote: > So it's radioactivity increases? > > John Schnurer wrote: > > > ========= This patent works ======= > > > > 4,961,880 Wm. Barker. > > > > Briefly: > > > > Material is exposed to field for 12 to 16 hours. One time and one > > time only. After this the Radioactive Material, or RM abbreviated, > > ....under its own mechanisms ...gives off its radioactivity in months > > instead of thousands of years. > > > > On Wed, 16 May 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > > > In reply to Mitchell Jones's message of Tue, 15 May 2001 10:31:26 > > > -0500: > > > [snip] > > > >***{They are either waste, or they are useful material. If the former, then > > > >they have been adequately disposed of; and if the latter, then I suppose > > > >they could at some future date be mined. But as a matter of curiosity, what > > > >use for them do you have in mind? --MJ}*** > > > > > > US4835433. (If it works as claimed). > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > > New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 16:50:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA12108; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:47:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:47:37 -0700 Message-ID: <006201c0e319$902c8c20$a8c21004@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <002f01c0e243$dd4bea40$83290404@hppav><5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com><5.0.2.1.2.20010521101908.028bb050@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010522181157.00a8d610@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:47:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Xc5RJ3.0.1z2.Ogl2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42762 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, > I wrote: > > >I am assuming that the machine is real, and there are other people in the > >world who know that, and would be anxious to download the information. If > >the machine were not real, the government would not hear about it, or > >bother to raid the laboratory. They can't go after every fruitcake who > >claims over-unity or anti-gravity! > > That's a little confusing. What I mean is that the data would have to be > extremely compelling to attract attention from the government. The > government does not even believe CF. Manpower and resources would only be > allocated to suppress a claim with a high level of proof, or many credible > eyewitness accounts, or prototypes floating around. No government is large > enough to chase down every claim. > > We know for a fact that many people who make these claims have been at it > years without the slightest interference by the government. Some of them, > like Correa and Mills, have pretty good evidence, and others have > irrefutable evidence. If the black helicopter suppression brigades exist, > they are grossly incompetent, since they have left Mills, Mizuno and Storms > unmolested. I do not believe they are so smart they can be sure Storms or > Mizuno will never find a way to control the reaction and scale up. Well, I wish I'd seen this before I sent my other post--OK, you see the problems in your earlier comments. As for those being left alone, I don't know if this would demonstrate incompetence or not (presupposing their are people who raid). Perhaps none of the more successful ones in CF are doing what "they" are actually worried about. The only thing that is true is that most who claim they've been raided can show any real evidence that they either have been, or that they really had anything worth raiding them for. > Data so compelling it convinces the government would also attract attention > from other governments, and corporations. If you put it on Internet or > started e-mailing it around, word would soon reach a larger audience than > the government could suppress. It would be like trying to erase all memory > of the "IT" scooter. Granted--the hope would be to catch it before that happened. Once the cat is out of the bag, the only thing you can do is release a bunch more cats that look sort of like it. i.e. disinformation. > The world does not work like a third rate thriller novel. Real suppression > of innovation by the government exists, naturally. But it is a tedious, > mundane everyday event, carried out by grey men wearing suits mumbling into > the microphones at physics conferences and congressional budget hearings. > It does not call for helicopters, guns, or midnight raids. There is no > drama. All it takes is paperwork and maybe a few phone calls to highly > placed opinionated newspaper reporters. Most of the time, sure. Where we differ is that you say "no drama" and I say "there could be some drama." We also differ in many ways on how the world really works, but that discussion is for another day. kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 18:10:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA10946; Tue, 22 May 2001 18:09:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:09:08 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010522210909.0079c320@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:09:09 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing--additional point In-Reply-To: <005601c0e318$30cc75c0$a8c21004@hppav> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010519140025.00a8c680@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010521101908.028bb050@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010522142528.00a8c9d0@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Xq55y.0.og2.psm2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42763 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff Kooistra wrote: >> Yes, but many experts said it was theoretically impossible. > >Name one . . . You don't find their names on Internet much anymore, but that was widely believed before 1997. >> Biology experts pay no attention what is predicted or portrayed in >science fiction. > >What? None of them? You do not know what the reading habits are of >"biology experts" . . . I sure do. I spent a year and a half living in a biology lab. What I mean is they do not set up serious research programs to achieve goals that are described in science fiction, yet which are considered impossible by their colleagues. Okay, maybe a few of them do, but the majority would not get tenure doing things like that. >read. Many, but certainly not all, scientists in general became interested >in science via SF. This includes biologists as well as physicists, >chemists, and the rest. That has NOTHING to do with whether they set up a cloning experiment, or poke out the eyes of fish. The motivation and inspiration comes from what they learn in the lab and in the field, not from an SF magazine. >Jed, why do you routinely make these kinds of inane comments on subjects >about which you nothing? Sometimes I know a little more than I let on. >> >It wasn't possible to just look at Dolly and say, "Ah yes, a clone!" > >> It was, actually. She was the only one of that color in that farm. Ian >> Wilmut, the guy who cloned her, was frustrated by rumors and doubts about >> her origin. He said, "look around here, there is not another sheep like >her >> in the pen." . . . > >And everyone was supposed to know all this just by looking at her, eh? Yes. People who know about sheep could tell at a glance. That was Wilmut's point. That is why he said it, and why he was annoyed. Obviously, people who were not there looking at the flock, or people who know nothing about sheep breeding would not have known this. They might have faked it by secretly brining in a sheep from some other flock, or with ordinary egg implanting, but Dolly could not have been born to that flock, and any sheep breeder would have seen that instantly. >> >Now, I'll grant that heavier than air flight seems to fit your model, but >> >what other machines, discoveries, and inventions have you in mind? >> >> Steam engines, > >Wrong. > >> photographs, > >Wrong. . . I think you were asking for discoveries and inventions which many experts predicted beforehand could not exist. Any book about technology will give examples of people who said that steam engines, photographs and so on were impossible. Arthur Clarke likes to quote a German who said said that photographs would be an affront to German science and God -- in that order. I prevously posted quotes about the alleged impossibility of lasers, which came from the autobiography of the man who invented them. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 18:15:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA12410; Tue, 22 May 2001 18:13:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:13:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0B0C73.ACB29A28@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:03:47 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: Message from APS Office of Public Affairs] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"X02I_1.0.l13.pwm2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42764 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Message from APS Office of Public Affairs Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:36:42 -0400 From: opa@aps.org Reply-To: opa@aps.org To: aki@ix.netcom.com ******************* FIRST BUDGET ALERT FOR FY 2002******************* TO: American Physical Society Members FROM: George H. Trilling, APS President The congressional budget resolution, passed recently by both houses of Congress, mirrors the presidential discretionary spending totals and would cut much of science sharply. Including a 3 percent inflation rate, here are the numbers contained in the presidential request: > NSF: Research and Related Activities would be cut nearly 4 percent. Excluding the Frontiers Centers, Physics would be cut nearly 13 percent. Materials Science would be cut almost 8 percent. All new construction projects would be zeroed out. > DOE: SLAC and FermiLab would receive increases in the operations budgets and the Spallation Neutron Source would be fully funded. However, university research in high-energy would decline by about 8 percent and in nuclear physics by more than 7.5 percent. Running time at RHIC would drop by 25 percent, and $10 million in construction funding for the LHC would be deferred until next year. Renewable Energy Resources, Nuclear Energy and Conservation would be cut by more than 30 percent. This budget plan will stick unless the scientific community responds. Congressional appropriators have begun to develop final agency numbers and will complete their task over the coming weeks. In the Senate, several key advocates have already begun to work the aisles on behalf of science. It is imperative that scientists, themselves, reinforce their message by contacting all senators immediately. House action is still premature. The information below can help you effectively voice your concern. Phone calls and letters are effective; e-mails and faxes are often ignored. ACTION: Senators Kit Bond (R-MO) and Barbara Mikulski (D-MD) are circulating a letter among their colleagues that calls for increasing the NSF budget substantially: http://www.aps.org/public_affairs/issues/budget1.shtml Senators John Warner (R-VA) and Jeff Bingaman (D-NM) are circulating a letter calling for increases for the DOE's Office of Science: http://www.aps.org/public_affairs/issues/budget2.shtml If you believe that more funding is justified, as I do, please urge your senators to sign onto these two bipartisan advocacy letters. If one of your senators is an Appropriator (if so, this will be indicated with an asterisk), please write a separate letter directly urging increased funding for NSF and DOE's Office of Science. If you are running Internet Explorer, you can use the APS web-based congressional communications site to draft your letter: http://www.aps.org/public_affairs/issues/budget.shtml CONTACT INFORMATION FOR YOUR SENATORS: Sen. Barbara Boxer 112 Hart Senate Office Building Washington DC 20510 (202) 224-3553 ** Sen. Dianne Feinstein 331 Hart Senate Office Building Washington DC 20510 (202) 224-3841 To remove yourself from the list for alerts from the APS Office of Public Affairs, goto http://www.aps.org/cgi-bin/scrproc.pl?MID=60034730&ALT=2&MSG=2 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 19:11:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01105; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:10:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:10:39 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:10:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000901c0e32d$88077f00$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <01052217504902.00885@linux> Resent-Message-ID: <"vlYKL.0.BH.Vmn2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42765 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Standing Bear The universe may not be the Age we calculated, rather than the size. Looking out in the distance we are also looking back in time. Only in the nearer galactic clusters can we truly accurately estimate the size between and distance of the galaxies because of the Cepheid Variable type stars. These Cepheid variable stars give us a very accurate distance measurement out to about 100 million light years. Beyond that we can only use the Red shift phenomena of receding galaxies. So if space is flatter, and therefore light is faster, then some red shift may be due to this effect and make the universe much younger than estimated. The debate will go on until we build a space station beyond the heliopause to do gravity and space experiments. Here, we are too close to the sun's gravity well to accurately measure the true nature of space. Need a fusion drive spaceship first. If anyone thinks that a CF device could release enough controlled energy for a spaceship, I would rather get out of this neighborhood ( read galactic ) first, than make it here. Taking this to the planets and stars is a better goal than developing it here on earth. Thanks SB. Matthew Rogers Prove it.. -----Original Message----- From: Standing Bear [mailto:rockcast@net-link.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 5:51 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly On Monday 21 May 2001 21:53, Matthew Rogers wrote: > The other options not discussed, is the space curvature phenomenon, and the > heliopause. > > If space is flatter , with less curve due to the gravity well of the solar > system, then by all appearances at those distances, with us looking up out > of curved space, the space probes > Would appear to going slower than calculated for the following reasons. > > The Speed of light is not constant, the medium in which light exists > determines its speed. Ergo, a Prism will bend light, or water, making light > change directions. > > At some point, the gravity of the Sun no longer changes the shape of space > around it, at a point to be measurable, and then the apparent speed of light > would increase. > > Light always follows the shortest path through space, but is limited by the > geodesic shape of the medium within it travels. In the medium which is less > dense, it travels faster. If you make a better vacuum, with less gravity as > well as medium, ( water/air/vacuum ), light will travel faster. > Both the Pioneer spacecraft have left the heliopause, the area around the > sun where the solar wind meets the local galactic space. The medium has > changed, nothing more. This Phenomenon is normal and should have been > expected and noticed sooner. > > Matthew Rogers > Prove it.. If the above is true, then the universe may not be the size that we have 'calculated'. Also, if light is faster where the probes are, then the probes' signals will take less time to get to us, making it appear that they are closer than they would otherwise be. That would be perhaps interpreted as the probes 'slowing'! Standing Bear........................autodynamics anyone? try http://www.autodynamics.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 7:28 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly > > Since Peter Fred and Nick Reiter contend that the temperature/heat of a mass > affect > the gravitational force, as these birds get colder they feel a slightly > stronger > gravitational pull: > > Fg = 6.67E-11*2.2E30*(260* b)/R^2) where b is a > temperature/heat mass-change coefficient. > > Remember that they have enough radioisotope in them to power four 40 watt > power > supplies. > > OTOH, they should speed up as the isotope decays and they become lighter. > > Will you buy that? :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > >Robin wrote: > > > > > > > > >> In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 21 May 2001 13:05:48 > > >> -0500: > > >> > > >> >Well now. What's going on out there? > > >> > > > >> > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html > > >> > > >> Has anyone considered friction with space dust, gasses, plasma etc.? > > > > > >Don't need it. This is the M&M "Aether Drag" in operation. The couldn't > > >find it > > >on/near the Earth where the Earth's gravity field is creating the > "Aether". > > > > ***{I assume you are talking about the Michelson and Morley experiment. If > > so, I must point out that the slowing of light in one thing, and the > > slowing of a 260 lb space probe is quite another. The Pioneer probes are > > currently moving slower than Earth, since when it swings around in its > > orbit so that it is going in the same direction as one of them, the > > distance of separation declines. Thus we are not talking about > relativistic > > velocities here, and aether drag on one of these gadgets should be > > negligible. > > > > One of the things I considered was a doppler effect on the probe's radio > > signal exerted by an aether flow toward the sun, as Ross Tessien used to > > talk about. However, that would be in the wrong direction: it would > > exaggerate the redshift, thereby causing Earth-bound observers to think > the > > recession velocity of the probe was anomalously large, rather than > > anomalously small. > > > > My own view, on the other hand, has always been that the direction of > > aether flow along the planetary disc is *away* from the sun rather than > > toward it. The reason: I would expect the sun to act like a gigantic > > squirrel-cage blower, sucking aether in at its poles and throwing it out > > along its equator. That would give a lesser redshift for the Pioneer space > > probes and, thus, would cause the JPL team to calculate a lower recession > > velocity than expected, thereby possibly explaining the anomaly. > > > > Or maybe not. :-) > > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > >Regards, Frederick > > ________________ > > Quote of the month: > > > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you > can > > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 20:40:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA28414; Tue, 22 May 2001 20:39:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:39:00 -0700 From: "J & D Kooistra" To: Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing--additional point Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:35:44 -0400 Message-ID: <01c0e339$734de660$72290404@jeffery> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5aLpH2.0.sx6.J3p2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42766 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, >>Name one . . . > >You don't find their names on Internet much anymore, but that was widely >believed before 1997. Well, I'm not interested enough in the point to go looking--I'm sure there were some, but I'm not sure how they were being qualified as experts. >>> Biology experts pay no attention what is predicted or portrayed in >>science fiction. >> >>What? None of them? You do not know what the reading habits are of >>"biology experts" . . . > >I sure do. I spent a year and a half living in a biology lab. Yes, and I get mail from biologists who read my columns in Analog and who read my stories. And spending a year and a half in a bio lab does not qualify you to know what their reading habits are any more than my extensive experience as a lab instructor to pre-meds qualifies me to know what doctors read. >What I mean is You routinely resort to this phrase. Why not just say what you actually mean in the first place? >they do not set up serious research programs to achieve goals that are >described in science fiction, yet which are considered impossible by their >colleagues. Okay, maybe a few of them do, but the majority would not get >tenure doing things like that. I didn't suggest that they do. Most of the stories, novels, etc. written in the seventies about cloning were written by SF writers who got their information from the working scientists. So it was certainly expected by many experts that one day it would be possible to clone mammals. And I don't know of a single genuine expert in the 90s (though there might be a few) who would have said cloning a mammal would _never_ be possible. Other than this clarification, I don't dispute that "they do not set up....etc." >>read. Many, but certainly not all, scientists in general became interested >>in science via SF. This includes biologists as well as physicists, >>chemists, and the rest. > >That has NOTHING to do with whether they set up a cloning experiment, or >poke out the eyes of fish. The motivation and inspiration comes from what >they learn in the lab and in the field, not from an SF magazine. As noted above, this point was never at issue. However, some few likely do get inspired at some point by an SF story--it would be peculiar if none of them ever did. And more of them likely do get motivated by some SF for the same reasons that other people get motivated by other things. You really should learn not to be so absolutist in your phraseology except when it matters. >>Jed, why do you routinely make these kinds of inane comments on subjects >>about which you know nothing? > >Sometimes I know a little more than I let on. Ah, now we're getting somewhere! Are you saying that you know the comments are inane before you make them, but you're making them anyway for some reason? To see what kind of response they might elicit? >>> >It wasn't possible to just look at Dolly and say, "Ah yes, a clone!" >> >>> It was, actually. She was the only one of that color in that farm. Ian >>> Wilmut, the guy who cloned her, was frustrated by rumors and doubts about >>> her origin. He said, "look around here, there is not another sheep like her >>> in the pen." . . . >> >>And everyone was supposed to know all this just by looking at her, eh? > >Yes. People who know about sheep could tell at a glance. That was Wilmut's >point. That is why he said it, and why he was annoyed. Obviously, people >who were not there looking at the flock, or people who know nothing about >sheep breeding would not have known this. They might have faked it by >secretly brining in a sheep from some other flock, or with ordinary egg >implanting, but Dolly could not have been born to that flock, and any sheep >breeder would have seen that instantly. Right you are. THAT was my point and you've agreed. I said: 'It wasn't possible to just look at Dolly and say, "Ah yes, a clone!"' You say: "Obviously, people who were not there looking at the flock, or people..." etc. So, you couldn't just LOOK at Dolly, she had to be seen in context, and by people with the relevant experience to be able to make the judgment about whether or not she was a clone. Going back to the original point of this, that is exactly what has to happen with devices about which wierd claims are made. It is not usually "dead simple" to demonstrate whether on not something does what it is purported to do. If you have a sizeable effect, then a run-of-the-mill expert may do to verify it's reality. If you have a real, but small, effect, it may only be possible for someone adequately schooled in the art to judge the reality of the effect. One of the things that happens a lot is that inventors of wierd things are unaware of what is actually possible, as well as inadequately prepared to institute the proper experimental protocols to genuinely rule out the mundane as an explanation. >>> >Now, I'll grant that heavier than air flight seems to fit your model, but >>> >what other machines, discoveries, and inventions have you in mind? >>> >>> Steam engines, >> >>Wrong. >> >>> photographs, >> >>Wrong. . . > >I think you were asking for discoveries and inventions which many experts >predicted beforehand could not exist. Any book about technology will give >examples of people who said that steam engines, photographs and so on were >impossible. People, yes--that happens all the time. "Experts" is a more slippery term. We may simply be disagreeing on what constitues an expert, or even a "recognized" expert. Aren't many of these "experts" from the past the equivalent of Dr. Park? He gets trotted out as an expert, and even testifies on Capitol Hill, but his actual field of expertise, as far as I can tell from his CV, is pretty narrow, so I would not consider him an expert on most of the things he gases off about. >Arthur Clarke likes to quote a German who said said that >photographs would be an affront to German science and God -- in that order. Fine, but did the German actually KNOW anything about what he was talking about? >I prevously posted quotes about the alleged impossibility of lasers, which >came from the autobiography of the man who invented them. I'm willing to be corrected on this. I know that the effect that is behind current spin valves was once thought to be impossible, and not that long ago, and by genuine experts. kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 22 22:13:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA22287; Tue, 22 May 2001 22:12:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:12:08 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 00:11:28 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Posting for CNuke Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"4ZgfF3.0.9S5.dQq2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42767 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Subject: Re: [svpvril] Cleaning Water with Ultrasound Cavitation > >wow great article thanks, lot of ideas start bubbling (pun intended) >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 5:48 PM >Subject: [svpvril] Cleaning Water with Ultrasound Cavitation > > >> excerpted from Scientific American >> ********************************** >> >> Cleaning Water with Ultrasound >> >> Chemicals may not be needed to destroy water pollutants, according to a >new study in the Journal of Physical Chemistry A. Instead ultrasound at just >the right frequency might do the trick. Ultrasound creates bubbles in water >through a process called cavitation. "When the bubbles collapse, the gas >inside of them becomes very pressurized and is at high temperatures for a >very short amount of time," lead author Inez Hua of Purdue University >explains. "The temperatures and pressures are such that organic contaminants >can degrade." >> >> To figure out which frequency of ultrasound would be most efficient for >water purification, the scientists looked at another process related to >cavitation called sonoluminescence, in which water bubbles bombarded with >sound actually emit light. "Our hypothesis was that intensity of the light >coming from the bubbles would be different for different frequencies," Hua >says. "The reason it would be different is that the nature of the bubble >collapse, as well as the number of bubbles in the solution, are going to >depend on frequency." >> >> Hua's team placed a glass container of about one liter of water on a steel >transducer that produced ultrasound waves. They also dropped 1,4 Dioxane, an >organic contaminant, into the water. Then they zapped the mix with >ultrasound frequencies of 205, 358, 618 and 1,071 kilohertz. Other >scientists have conducted similar series of experiments in the past, but >Hua's team was the first to leave all conditions but the ultrasound >frequency consistent. >> >> They found that at 358 kilohertz the compound reacted faster than at any >other frequency. Hua hopes ultrasound will become an alternative to the >conventional chemical methods of water purification. "It's very easy to >use," she adds. "It doesn't require highly trained operators. You just turn >on the switch, the power starts transmitting through the solution, and your >process begins." -Harald Franzen >> >> ************************* >> for this and other links, go to: >> http://www.sciam.com/news/042301/1.html >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Free Email at http://mail.euroseek.com >> >> Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos. >> >> Email your snail mail address to info@svpvril.com. >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> > > >Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos. > >Email your snail mail address to info@svpvril.com. > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 05:00:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA17838; Wed, 23 May 2001 04:59:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 04:59:41 -0700 Message-ID: <00b101c0e377$31f188a0$d08f85ce@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 05:57:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E34D.3E2D0A60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ATrXO2.0.ZM4.jOw2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42768 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E34D.3E2D0A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Solar Wind/Photon Pressure at work. http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/comet.split/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E34D.3E2D0A60 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - Crumbling comet makes for cosmic deja vu - May 21, 2001.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - Crumbling comet makes for cosmic deja vu - May 21, 2001.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/comet.split/index.html [DOC#35] BASEURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html ORIGURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/comet.split/index.html Modified=802F219576E3C0017F ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E34D.3E2D0A60-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 08:40:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA19494; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:39:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:39:06 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010523103830.00a82ef0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 11:38:56 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing--additional point In-Reply-To: <01c0e339$734de660$72290404@jeffery> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"qlbGf2.0.Mm4.Pcz2x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42769 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: J Kooistra wrote: >And spending a year and a half in a bio lab does not >qualify you to know what their reading habits are any more than my extensive >experience as a lab instructor to pre-meds qualifies me to know what doctors >read. Reading habits have nothing to do with it. Researchers do not call department meetings to review a pile of SF magazines before deciding what is next on the agenda. They *do* have meetings to evaluate competing research projects, available equipment, budgets, trends in biology, and so on. Okay, they might be inspired by SF, or by watching a nature program on TV, or by something their little sister says. I knew one project inspired by a Time Life nature book. > >What I mean is > >You routinely resort to this phrase. Why not just say what you actually >mean in the first place? That is a polite way of saying, "let me simplify, clarify and rephrase so that even you will understand." When I read Wilmut's exasperated comment about "anyone can tell by looking" that Dolly is a clone, I knew what he meant. I am a little surprised you were confused. (Perhaps you did know what he meant, and you were arguing for argument's sake.) Actually . . . sad to say, today you probably could guess that Dolly is a clone by looking at her in isolation. She is obese and unhealthy. So far, every surviving clone has "suffered staggering rates of abnormalities and death" (T. H. Murray) >So, you couldn't just LOOK at Dolly, she had to be seen in context, >and by people with the relevant experience to be able to make the judgment >about whether or not she was a clone. Obviously that is what he had in mind! What else? His point was that the DNA tests the skeptics were demanding were not necessary. They suspected an egg with the original DNA had slipped into the batch. >It is not usually "dead >simple" to demonstrate whether on not something does what it is purported to >do. If you have a sizeable effect, then a run-of-the-mill expert may do >to verify it's reality. The device that triggered this discussion allegedly has a huge effect. I suppose that is why the government sent helicopters to suppress it. >People, yes--that happens all the time. "Experts" is a more slippery term. >We may simply be disagreeing on what constitues an expert, or even a >"recognized" expert. Aren't many of these "experts" from the past the >equivalent of Dr. Park? I suppose many of them were. On the other hand many times experts have valid technical reasons for saying a new claim is impossible. The Spanish experts who opposed the Columbus expedition were right when they said the world is too large, and his ships would never reach Japan or China. He would have starved to death had he not bumped into the Americas. His estimate of the size of the earth and the size of the Eurasian continent were way off. After Townes made the first maser, Niels Bohr and John von Neumann insisted he was mistaken, because a maser would violate uncertainty principle. They were wrong, but they had good reasons for thinking that. > >Arthur Clarke likes to quote a German who said said that > >photographs would be an affront to German science and God -- in that order. > >Fine, but did the German actually KNOW anything about what he was talking >about? Obviously not. Sometimes experts make stupid mistakes, and sometimes they are not really experts. Or, as you say, they are expert in the wrong subject. When Adm. Leahy heard about the atom bomb project, he said, "This is the biggest fool thing we have ever done . . . The bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives." He may have been an expert in conventional explosives, and any admiral knows a lot about artillery, but he was no expert in nuclear physics. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 12:10:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05963; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:05:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:05:59 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00b101c0e377$31f188a0$d08f85ce@computer> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:01:26 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"7kLvF2.0.5T1.Ne03x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42770 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Solar Wind/Photon Pressure at work. > > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/comet.split/index.html > ***{That's interesting, but even more interesting is the following: http://europe.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/02/21/stardust/index.html. At the referenced location, you will find an article about the Stardust probe,which includes the following statement: "In January, Stardust experienced a marked improvement after months of blurry vision. By ordering the craft to heat up the optical surface, mission scientists managed to boil off an unknown contaminant on its navigation camera. The refrigerator-sized probe regained its vision days before a near Earth flyby, which gave it a gravitational slingshot boost on its way to a rendezvous with Comet Wild-2 in 2004." Note: the orbit of Wild-2 takes it above the planetary disc. (The "Comet Wild-2's View of Jupiter" photo confirms this. See http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/comets/wildnow.html.) Thus Stardust had to go *below* the planetary disc to position itself for a slingshot boost that would carry it to Wild-2. (The "Stardust View of Earth" photo confirms this. See http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/scnow.html.) That means Stardust was below the planetary disc when it iced up, and provides compelling evidence that the primordial gas cloud from which the material in the planetary disc coalesced still exists. The implication: whenever a probe strays outside the region that has been swept clean--i.e., outside the planetary disc--it begins to accumulate material from that cloud on its exposed surfaces. And, naturally, with each impact with a gas molecule, the probe slows down. Thus we would expect that the Pioneer probes and Ulysses, all of which are outside the planetary disc, should also be icing up and slowing down. --MJ}*** As I noted the other day, however, it is my recollection that one of these probes contained instrumentation intended to measure the number of particles encountered along the way. But perhaps it was an inner solar system probe, rather than a deep space probe. Anybody? --Mitchell Jones}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 13:23:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA31199; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:13:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:13:14 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:11:36 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"NANpS2.0.Pd7.Pd13x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42771 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] Mitchell Jones wrote: >As I noted the other day, however, it is my recollection that one >of these probes contained instrumentation intended to measure >the number of particles encountered along the way. But perhaps >it was an inner solar system probe, rather than a deep space >probe. Anybody? > >--Mitchell Jones}*** ***{As an addendum to the above, I found information about the instrumentation of Voyager 1 and 2 at http://vraptor.jpl.nasa.gov/voyager/sc_instr/I_spacecraft.html. These probes apparently contained high and low energy ion detectors, but nothing capable of detecting neutral atoms of the sort that would be present in the primordial gas cloud. Also, the trajectories of these probes did not take them outside the planetary disc. (See http://vraptor.jpl.nasa.gov/voyager/images/tour.gif.) Thus the only probes that have strayed outside the planetary disc are apparently Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, Ulysses, and Stardust. The first three have showed an anomalous slowing-down, and the fourth shows direct evidence that it was subject to icing up when outside the planetary disc, thereby indicating clearly that it must have slowed down as well. The question, however, remains: what is known about the prevalence of tiny neutral masses--e.g., individual gas molecules--outside of the planetary disc? In that regard, here is an interesting quote: "Abstract. -- The Ulysses dust experiment is intended to provide direct observations of dust grains with masses between 10-16 g and 10-6 g in interplanetary space, to investigate their physical and dynamical properties as functions of heliocentric distance and ecliptic latitude. Of special interest is the question of what portion is provided by comets, asteroids and interstellar particles. The investigation is performed with an instrument that measures the mass, speed, flight direction and electric charge of individual dust particles. It is a multicoincidence detector with a mass sensitivity 106 times higher than that of previous in-situ experiments which measured dust in the outer solar system. The instrument weighs 3.8 kg, consumes 2.2 W, and has a normal data transmission rate of 8 bits/s in nominal spacecraft tracking mode. On 27th October 1990 the instrument was switched-on. The instrument was configured to flight conditions and science data collection started immediately. In the period to 13th January 1991 at least 44 dust impacts have been recorded. Flux values are given covering the heliocentric distance range from 1.04 to 1.7 AU." (See http://ulysses-ops.jpl.nasa.gov/uds01/uls_02_a/DOCS/DUST/DUST.HTM.) The mass of a water molecule (H2O) is 18 amu, or 18(1.657x10^-24) = 2.98x10^-23 g, the mass of a methane molecule (CH4) is 16 amu, or 2.65x10^-23 g, the mass of a carbon dioxide (CO2) molecule is 44 amu, or 7.29x10^-23 g, and the mass of an ammonia molecule (NH3) is 17 amu, or 2.82x10^-23 g. These are the primary materials which nucleate onto dust particles, to form comets. However, according to the above, the Ulysses instrument cannot detect anything with a mass less than 10^-16 g, and, more importantly, its instrument is 106 times more sensitive than those on earlier probes. The implication: there is no data contradicting the hypothesis that space probes which go outside the planetary disc are slowing down because they are icing up. And, of course, we know for a fact that the Stardust probe iced up under those conditions. Conclusion: the primordial gas cloud still exists, in regions outside the planetary disc, and causes icing up and slowing down of space probes that go there. --Mitchell Jones}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 13:31:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA03621; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:27:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:27:08 -0700 Message-ID: <001001c0e3be$0fec2700$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Solar g force * Pioneer anomaly Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:24:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E394.21203E00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"O2H7t.0.Ru.Rq13x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42772 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E394.21203E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bet somebody heard Tunguska, back then. http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/23/secret.meteors/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E394.21203E00 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - Listening for secret nukes, hearing giant meteors - May 23, 2001.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - Listening for secret nukes, hearing giant meteors - May 23, 2001.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/23/secret.meteors/index.html [DOC#35] BASEURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html ORIGURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/23/secret.meteors/index.html Modified=402EFBA5BDE3C0016F ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E394.21203E00-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 14:27:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29290; Wed, 23 May 2001 14:24:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:24:19 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Posting for CNuke Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:27:50 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052317275000.00885@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA29239 Resent-Message-ID: <"MGu_D.0.W97.2g23x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42773 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 22 May 2001 22:11, thomas malloy wrote: > >Subject: Re: [svpvril] Cleaning Water with Ultrasound Cavitation > > > >wow great article thanks, lot of ideas start bubbling (pun intended) > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: > >Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 5:48 PM > >Subject: [svpvril] Cleaning Water with Ultrasound Cavitation > > > > > >> excerpted from Scientific American > >> ********************************** > >> > >> Cleaning Water with Ultrasound > >> > >> Chemicals may not be needed to destroy water pollutants, according to a > >new study in the Journal of Physical Chemistry A. Instead ultrasound at just > >the right frequency might do the trick. Ultrasound creates bubbles in water > >through a process called cavitation. "When the bubbles collapse, the gas > >inside of them becomes very pressurized and is at high temperatures for a > >very short amount of time," lead author Inez Hua of Purdue University > >explains. "The temperatures and pressures are such that organic contaminants > >can degrade." > >> > >> To figure out which frequency of ultrasound would be most efficient for > >water purification, the scientists looked at another process related to > >cavitation called sonoluminescence, in which water bubbles bombarded with > >sound actually emit light. "Our hypothesis was that intensity of the light > >coming from the bubbles would be different for different frequencies," Hua > >says. "The reason it would be different is that the nature of the bubble > >collapse, as well as the number of bubbles in the solution, are going to > >depend on frequency." > >> > >> Hua's team placed a glass container of about one liter of water on a steel > >transducer that produced ultrasound waves. They also dropped 1,4 Dioxane, an > >organic contaminant, into the water. Then they zapped the mix with > >ultrasound frequencies of 205, 358, 618 and 1,071 kilohertz. Other > >scientists have conducted similar series of experiments in the past, but > >Hua's team was the first to leave all conditions but the ultrasound > >frequency consistent. > >> > >> They found that at 358 kilohertz the compound reacted faster than at any > >other frequency. Hua hopes ultrasound will become an alternative to the > >conventional chemical methods of water purification. "It's very easy to > >use," she adds. "It doesn't require highly trained operators. You just turn > >on the switch, the power starts transmitting through the solution, and your > >process begins." -Harald Franzen > >> Whooooooooeeee! Doggies! If I live next to a wastewater treatment plant that uses that, the subharmonics will make the fillings fall out of my teeth, and I will always be searching for my dog........but..........I'll KNOW just where to find him. Grin Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 14:54:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07941; Wed, 23 May 2001 14:51:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:51:20 -0700 Message-ID: <005e01c0e3c9$d52b72e0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , , Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:47:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ws0_r2.0.vx1.N333x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42774 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: With all of that icing up of space probes that venture out of the Solar/Planetary Disk, it looks like you could build a ship that uses H2O, CH4, and NH3 gases/particles etc., as a propellant. Kind of like a whale scooping up plankton. Do all your cruising outside the "Disk" and come into the "Disk" when you get where you want to go. Flash Gordon eat your heart out. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 18:16:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22136; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:15:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:15:16 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010523201003.00d0a150@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:17:34 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Posting for CNuke In-Reply-To: <01052317275000.00885@linux> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"a2fZ92.0.nP5.Z263x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42775 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > >Whooooooooeeee! Doggies! If I live next to a wastewater treatment plant >that uses that, the subharmonics will make the fillings fall out of my teeth, >and I will always be searching for my dog........but..........I'll KNOW just >where to find him. > >Grin > Standing Bear Interesting 358 KHz... sure they don't mean 357.9545 wich would be on tenth of the frequency used to overlay color onto your NTSC Television braudcasts. Also the first even and odd harmonics are going to make the AM broadcast band look like doo doo. And by the way sub harmonics and intermod don't exist. Ask any radio geek. Those are realy just folk lore. yah right! I wonder if FCC is going to allow that frequency _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 18:18:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22951; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:18:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:18:01 -0700 Message-ID: <002001c0e3ef$5af57ae0$dbc21004@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010523103830.00a82ef0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Offer to have a useful discussion, was :Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing--additional point Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 21:17:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"6Hny-.0.Vc5.8563x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42776 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, > Reading habits have nothing to do with it. Researchers do not call > department meetings to review a pile of SF magazines before deciding what > is next on the agenda. >Okay, they might be inspired by SF, or by watching a nature program on > TV, or by something their little sister says. I knew one project inspired > by a Time Life nature book. Somewhere in here you have finally managed to rebut your original comment so I don't need to add anything. > > >What I mean is > > > >You routinely resort to this phrase. Why not just say what you actually > >mean in the first place? > > That is a polite way of saying, "let me simplify, clarify and rephrase so > that even you will understand." That may be, but what you actually often DO is not to "simply, clarify, and rephrase", but rather to change the meaning of what you said the first time. In the past couple of posts you have managed to refute your own initial statement. The difficulty is not with understanding your plain meaning the first time; it is that the comments are factually nonsensical (and I know you did not intend them to be nonsensical). Continuing with the trivial example of SF and biologists, you usually first say something like: "No biologist ever gets any inspiration from SF," then in your restatement or clarification you say, "OK, maybe a few do." So, seriously, in the interest of saving time and avoiding needless contention (which results in am abrupt end to what might have been a useful discussion as often as it results in a flame war), why not originally say what you really mean which is: "Although perhaps a few biologists draw inspiration from SF, biology researchers do not call department meetings to review a pile of SF magazines before deciding what is next on the agenda." That is a point with which I certainly would not disagree even though I am a science fiction writer ('course, if I was like Dr. Park, I'd add: "But they ought too.") I don't want to cramp your style, nor have you pay an inordinate amount of attention to how you say things, especially when you're waxing particularly eloquent. Bit there is value in using words like "some," "many," "often," "most," etc. instead of "all," "none," "always," "never," etc. Overuse of the latter removes their power for when you really need them. > When I read Wilmut's exasperated comment > about "anyone can tell by looking" that Dolly is a clone, I knew what he > meant. I am a little surprised you were confused. I was not confused, Jed--I was trying (and am continuing to try) to get you to recognize an ongoing habitual weakness in your rhetorical style so that you might correct it and thus make forum exchanges with you easier and less cluttered with "absolutist" statements which undercut your credibility. I'm not doing this to pick on you--you are not the sort who gets picked on. I hope to be able to use you in educational exchanges which will be to the benefit of the vortex audience. You are one of the few here, if not the only one, who has experience in building a successful company and running it. In addition, despite my carping over the aforementioned "weakness", you do write well, and you are not shy about stating your opinion, and doing so strongly. (By the way, I'm done criticizing your rhetorical style, and I _was_ playing with you more than a little bit.) You have often said that inventors should do X, Y, and Z to get their projects supported, or patented, or accepted. I would like to explore this topic with you within this forum for the benefit of those Vortexians who may take something of value away from it. You are right that many inventors don't have a clue about how to "do business." It is clear to me that many of them also don't know how to establish to a reasonable level of confidence whether or not their "physics defying" invention does, in fact, defy known physics. What I envision is you playing the role of the Venture Capitalist or CEO (the guy with the money) while I ask you detailed questions about "what do I need to show you Mr. $$$ so that you'll support my project?" If you are willing to do this, we can get started fairly soon. There would be no need to make this onerous on ourselves; we won't be on a schedule and answers don't need to be any longer than one word if one word will suffice. >(Perhaps you did know what he meant, and you were arguing for argument's sake.) No--I never argue for arguments sake anymore--I'm too busy. > >It is not usually "dead simple" to demonstrate whether on not something does what it is purported to > >do. If you have a sizeable effect, then a run-of-the-mill expert may do to verify it's reality. > > The device that triggered this discussion allegedly has a huge effect. I > suppose that is why the government sent helicopters to suppress it. I would guess that anything that's likely to be useful after significant development will initially look as much like the finished product as the first transistor looks like those little three-lead cans we used to see in our radios. > After Townes made the first maser, Niels Bohr and John von > Neumann insisted he was mistaken, because a maser would violate > uncertainty principle. They were wrong, but they had good reasons for > thinking that. OK--I was unaware of their "expert" criticism. Jeff From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 18:24:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA24829; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:24:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:24:10 -0700 From: "R. Wormus" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:22:24 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010523201003.00d0a150@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Mailer: YAM 2.2 [060] AmigaOS E-Mail Client (c) 1995-2000 by Marcel Beck http://www.yam.ch Subject: Re: Posting for CNuke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA24798 Resent-Message-ID: <"YyUmQ.0.p36.vA63x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42777 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Charles, You really think ultrasound is going to show up on your TV?? Ron On 23-May-01, Charles Ford cjford1@yahoo.com wrote: CF> CF>> CF>> CF>> Whooooooooeeee! Doggies! If I live next to a wastewater treatment plant CF>> that uses that, the subharmonics will make the fillings fall out of my teeth, CF>> and I will always be searching for my dog........but..........I'll KNOW just CF>> where to find him. CF>> CF>> Grin CF>> Standing Bear CF> CF> Interesting 358 KHz... sure they don't mean 357.9545 wich would be on CF> tenth of the frequency used to overlay color onto your NTSC Television CF> braudcasts. Also the first even and odd harmonics are going to make the AM CF> broadcast band look like doo doo. CF> CF> And by the way sub harmonics and intermod don't exist. Ask any radio geek. CF> Those are realy just folk lore. yah right! CF> CF> CF> CF> I wonder if FCC is going to allow that frequency CF> CF> CF> CF> _________________________________________________________ CF> Do You Yahoo!? CF> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com CF> -- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 18:27:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA25444; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:26:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:26:13 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005e01c0e3c9$d52b72e0$9731b43f@computer> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:24:36 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"bCw1M.0.uC6.qC63x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42778 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >With all of that icing up of space probes that venture out of the >Solar/Planetary >Disk, it looks like you could build a ship that uses H2O, CH4, and NH3 >gases/particles >etc., as a propellant. Kind of like a whale scooping up plankton. ***{Since CH4 is a fuel gas, that might work--if there were a source of oxygen. Since there isn't, however, I'm not sure how you would make the thing work. One thing is sure: some source of continuous thrust is going to be necessary to enable these probes to escape from the sun's gravity, because, as you noted earlier, if they slow down due to icing up, then they are eventually going to come back as comets--which means: the plaque with all the engravings and high-sounding messages from "mankind" that we sent out awhile back is just going to come back in the middle of an ice ball, in a few hundred thousand years. In fact, some of the comets that we have watched burning up recently could conceivably have contained a similar plaque and messages from some alien civilization, launched millions of years ago--provided, of course, that their probe contained a nuclear ion drive or something similar to enable it to escape from their own primordial gas cloud. Anyway, if the primordial gas cloud still exists, then the small comet theory is almost certainly correct--which means: the lunar regolith must have acted as virtual soundproofing, where small comet impacts were concerned. (Are you listening, Robin? :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** >Do all your cruising outside the "Disk" and come into the "Disk" when you >get where >you want to go. Flash Gordon >eat your heart out. :-) ***{A thruster that burns methane might make interstellar travel possible, in fact, if the primordial gas cloud is present throughout the galactic disc, as seems likely. --MJ}*** >Regards, Frederick ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 18:41:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA28369; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:36:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:36:32 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:34:46 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"JqMHi.0.4x6.VM63x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42779 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{I am sending this again because the first version included a comment that I thought I had deleted. Please ignore the first version. Thanks. --MJ}*** >With all of that icing up of space probes that venture out of the >Solar/Planetary >Disk, it looks like you could build a ship that uses H2O, CH4, and NH3 >gases/particles >etc., as a propellant. Kind of like a whale scooping up plankton. ***{Since CH4 is a fuel gas, that might work--if there were a source of oxygen. Since there isn't, however, I'm not sure how you would make the thing work. One thing is sure: some source of continuous thrust is going to be necessary to enable these probes to escape from the sun's gravity, because, as you noted earlier, if they slow down due to icing up, then they are eventually going to come back as comets--which means: the plaque with all the engravings and high-sounding messages from "mankind" that we sent out awhile back is just going to come back in the middle of an ice ball, in a few hundred thousand years. In fact, some of the comets that we have watched burning up recently could conceivably have contained a similar plaque and messages from some alien civilization, launched millions of years ago--provided, of course, that their probe contained a nuclear ion drive or something similar to enable it to escape from their own primordial gas cloud. Anyway, if the primordial gas cloud still exists, then the small comet theory is almost certainly correct--which means: the lunar regolith must have acted as virtual soundproofing, where small comet impacts were concerned. (Are you listening, Robin? :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** >Do all your cruising outside the "Disk" and come into the "Disk" when you >get where >you want to go. Flash Gordon >eat your heart out. :-) > >Regards, Frederick ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 18:43:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA29779; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:41:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:41:48 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010523204332.00d0cc50@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:44:06 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Posting for CNuke In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20010523201003.00d0a150@postoffice.swbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"6UHGK3.0.DH7.RR63x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42780 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:22 PM 5/23/01 -0600, you wrote: >Charles, >You really think ultrasound is going to show up on your TV?? >Ron > >On 23-May-01, Charles Ford cjford1@yahoo.com wrote: No! But I do ask myself "how are they generating it?" _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 19:40:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA18697; Wed, 23 May 2001 19:39:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 19:39:48 -0700 Message-ID: <009201c0e3f0$c04e7f80$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:27:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"fKc_M.0.2a4.qH73x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42781 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitchell Jones" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Mitchell Jones wrote: > Frederick Sparber wrote: > >With all of that icing up of space probes that venture out of the > >Solar/Planetary > >Disk, it looks like you could build a ship that uses H2O, CH4, and NH3 > >gases/particles > >etc., as a propellant. Kind of like a whale scooping up plankton. > > ***{Since CH4 is a fuel gas, that might work--if there were a source of > oxygen. You can electrolyze the water with a nuclear plant and store the O2 and H2. Or you can use the nuclear plant to heat whatever other gases are there for propulsion. Also 2 NH3 + Heat (dissociation catalyst) ---> N2 + 3 H2 and nCH4 + Heat ---> C+H2 + C2H2 etc. All kinds of possibilities using cookbook chemical engineering. (All the ingredients for DNA in there too). Regards, Frederick > Since there isn't, however, I'm not sure how you would make the > thing work. > > One thing is sure: some source of continuous thrust is going to be > necessary to enable these probes to escape from the sun's gravity, because, > as you noted earlier, if they slow down due to icing up, then they are > eventually going to come back as comets--which means: the plaque with all > the engravings and high-sounding messages from "mankind" that we sent out > awhile back is just going to come back in the middle of an ice ball, in a > few hundred thousand years. In fact, some of the comets that we have > watched burning up recently could conceivably have contained a similar > plaque and messages from some alien civilization, launched millions of > years ago--provided, of course, that their probe contained a nuclear ion > drive or something similar to enable it to escape from their own primordial > gas cloud. > > Anyway, if the primordial gas cloud still exists, then the small comet > theory is almost certainly correct--which means: the lunar regolith must > have acted as virtual soundproofing, where small comet impacts were > concerned. (Are you listening, Robin? :-) > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >Do all your cruising outside the "Disk" and come into the "Disk" when you > >get where > >you want to go. Flash Gordon > >eat your heart out. :-) > > ***{A thruster that burns methane might make interstellar travel possible, > in fact, if the primordial gas cloud is present throughout the galactic > disc, as seems likely. --MJ}*** > > >Regards, Frederick > > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 20:37:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA03834; Wed, 23 May 2001 20:36:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:36:43 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Posting for CNuke Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 23:40:25 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052323402501.00885@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA03795 Resent-Message-ID: <"atXys1.0.lx.B783x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42782 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 23 May 2001 18:22, R. Wormus wrote: > Charles, > You really think ultrasound is going to show up on your TV?? > Ron > > On 23-May-01, Charles Ford cjford1@yahoo.com wrote: > > CF> > CF>> > CF>> > CF>> Whooooooooeeee! Doggies! If I live next to a wastewater treatment plant > CF>> that uses that, the subharmonics will make the fillings fall out of my teeth, > CF>> and I will always be searching for my dog........but..........I'll KNOW just > CF>> where to find him. > CF>> > CF>> Grin > CF>> Standing Bear > CF> > CF> Interesting 358 KHz... sure they don't mean 357.9545 wich would be on > CF> tenth of the frequency used to overlay color onto your NTSC Television > CF> braudcasts. Also the first even and odd harmonics are going to make the AM > CF> broadcast band look like doo doo. > CF> > CF> And by the way sub harmonics and intermod don't exist. Ask any radio geek. > CF> Those are realy just folk lore. yah right! > CF> > CF> > CF> > CF> I wonder if FCC is going to allow that frequency > CF> Hey, don't worry too much. Worry more about the folks in Northern Michigan in its 'Upper Peninsula'. Dese are 'da Yoooopers' ! Well the government's low freq antenna farms are there. I used to work for a place that did vibration analysis for the old 'Apollo' program. Some vibration honcho found that a 19 cycle (hurtz..........hehehe) tone was resonant with the average human rectum. Tell ya, dose Yooopers don't dare eat too many beans with their beer while goin to the drive in movies in an Escort. more Grins, Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 20:50:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA06894; Wed, 23 May 2001 20:46:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:46:49 -0700 Message-ID: <00ce01c0e3fb$7e70ec00$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 21:44:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"T7s6O3.0.eh1.fG83x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42783 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitchell Jones" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Mitchell Jones wrote: > ***{I am sending this again because the first version included a comment > that I thought I had deleted. Please ignore the first version. Thanks. > --MJ}*** > Frederick Sparber wrote: > >With all of that icing up of space probes that venture out of the > >Solar/Planetary > >Disk, it looks like you could build a ship that uses H2O, CH4, and NH3 > >gases/particles > >etc., as a propellant. Kind of like a whale scooping up plankton. > > ***{Since CH4 is a fuel gas, that might work--if there were a source of > oxygen. Since there isn't, however, I'm not sure how you would make the > thing work. When you electrolyze water it takes ~ 25 kw-hr per pound of Hydrogen liberated. Thus: 2 H2O (36 lbs) ---> 2 H2 (4 lbs) + O2 (32 lbs). IOW 100 kw-hr will produce 32 lbs of Oxygen. Use this for life support and use the CO2, H2, CH4 and NH3 as a propellant. > > One thing is sure: some source of continuous thrust is going to be > necessary to enable these probes to escape from the sun's gravity, because, > as you noted earlier, if they slow down due to icing up, then they are > eventually going to come back as comets--which means: the plaque with all > the engravings and high-sounding messages from "mankind" that we sent out > awhile back is just going to come back in the middle of an ice ball, in a > few hundred thousand years. Judging by the rate of slowdown the accretion is going on at an exponential rate, thus the Pioneer probes can start falling back toward the sun in another decade or so. :-) > In fact, some of the comets that we have > watched burning up recently could conceivably have contained a similar > plaque and messages from some alien civilization, launched millions of > years ago--provided, of course, that their probe contained a nuclear ion > drive or something similar to enable it to escape from their own primordial > gas cloud. > > Anyway, if the primordial gas cloud still exists, then the small comet > theory is almost certainly correct--which means: the lunar regolith must > have acted as virtual soundproofing, where small comet impacts were > concerned. (Are you listening, Robin? :-) Regards, Frederick > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >Do all your cruising outside the "Disk" and come into the "Disk" when you > >get where > >you want to go. Flash Gordon > >eat your heart out. :-) > > > >Regards, Frederick > > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 23 22:39:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15106; Wed, 23 May 2001 22:38:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 22:38:50 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00ce01c0e3fb$7e70ec00$9731b43f@computer> References: Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 00:35:31 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Solar g force & Pioneer anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"5DY-B2.0.sh3.fv93x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42784 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] Fred Sparber wrote: >When you electrolyze water it takes ~ 25 kw-hr per pound of Hydrogen >liberated. Thus: >2 H2O (36 lbs) ---> 2 H2 (4 lbs) + O2 (32 lbs). IOW 100 kw-hr will produce >32 lbs of >Oxygen. Use this for life support and use the CO2, H2, CH4 and NH3 as a >propellant. ***{Yes, with a nuclear reactor and an ion engine that used some of the swept-up material for propellant and the rest for drinking water, etc., interstellar manned flight would be possible. (For some interesting info about xenon ion propulsion, see http://www.hsc.com/factsheets/xips/xips.html.) It should be simple to convert that basic idea to an ion jet, rather than a rocket. Gases swept in through the front of the space craft would be ionized and shot out the back at kilometers per sec velocities, resulting in a steady and reliable thrust. (If you hit a patch of space in which the primordial gas cloud was unusually thin, you could maintain thrust for a very long time using stored material, since an ion engine requires very little mass of propellant, due to the very high exhaust velocity.) You would, of course, need some hardy souls who were willing to live out their entire lives in space, so that they, or perhaps their children, could explore distant star systems, but, hey, there are people who would jump at the chance. Of course, that's just a pipe dream. We are all, including the explorers among us, denied access to nuclear technology "in the public interest," by fascist governments. If they had not adopted those policies, mankind would already be on its way to the stars, and our survival as a species would be assured regardless of whether civilization continues, or collapses, here on Earth. Unfortunately, there is nothing that can be done about that suppression, or about the vulnerability of our species that results from it, because most people simply cannot comprehend that, in a free society, people would be able to safely dispose of nuclear waste, clean up the results of accidental discharges, etc., all without the assistance of government. Result: here we sit, confined to this ridiculous, oppressive world, held prisoner by the majority's ignorance and lack of imagination. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> One thing is sure: some source of continuous thrust is going to be >> necessary to enable these probes to escape from the sun's gravity, because, >> as you noted earlier, if they slow down due to icing up, then they are >> eventually going to come back as comets--which means: the plaque with all >> the engravings and high-sounding messages from "mankind" that we sent out >> awhile back is just going to come back in the middle of an ice ball, in a >> few hundred thousand years. > >Judging by the rate of slowdown the accretion is going on >at an exponential rate, thus the Pioneer probes can start falling back >toward the sun >in another decade or so. :-) ***{I haven't seen any actual numbers. Do you have a link which gives some? Anyway, if what you say is true, then that's even stronger evidence that icing-up is what is going on, because as crystals accumulate on the probe, its surface area will increase exponentially, and so will the rate of accretion. --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 01:43:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA31578; Thu, 24 May 2001 01:42:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:42:55 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 03:43:16 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Tonight on Art Bell Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"gf8Mf.0.Kj7.FcC3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42785 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just when you thought it couldn't get any weider, it does. Richard Hoagland was on the program again. It seems that those rocket scientists, NASA are planning on having a press conference tomorrow, May 24. Richard thinks that they are going to announce that they are going to release a high resolution image of the formation on Mars, you know the one, it looks sort of like the sphinx, BTW, check out this URL, www.barryandtheboys.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 02:35:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA06280; Thu, 24 May 2001 02:34:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 02:34:30 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 05:41:00 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Effect Offer to have a useful discussion, was :Re: Re[2]: Raids , and In-Reply-To: <002001c0e3ef$5af57ae0$dbc21004@hppav> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"f__dV.0.2Y1.cMD3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42786 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Jeff, cuts....going to the way bottom of this letter: On Wed, 23 May 2001, Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra wrote: Q: What is the device mentioned below which "has a huge effect"? > to verify it's reality. > > > > The device that triggered this discussion allegedly has a huge effect. I > > suppose that is why the government sent helicopters to suppress it. > > I would guess that anything that's likely to be useful after > significant development will initially look as much like the finished > product as the first transistor looks like those little three-lead cans we > used to see in our radios. > > > After Townes made the first maser, Niels Bohr and John von > > Neumann insisted he was mistaken, because a maser would violate > > uncertainty principle. They were wrong, but they had good reasons for > > thinking that. > > OK--I was unaware of their "expert" criticism. > > Jeff > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 07:32:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA08848; Thu, 24 May 2001 07:31:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:31:47 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010524093823.029237a8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:31:41 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Offer to have a useful discussion, was :Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing--additional point In-Reply-To: <002001c0e3ef$5af57ae0$dbc21004@hppav> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010523103830.00a82ef0@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"thg8_3.0.AA2.JjH3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42787 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jeff Kooistra wrote: Continuing with the trivial >example of SF and biologists, you usually first say something like: "No >biologist ever gets any inspiration from SF," I never said that. I said, quote: "Biology experts pay no attention what is predicted or portrayed in science fiction." I mean that I have worked with biologists and read books by them, and I do not recall an instance in which they said they were motivated to do a project because of an SF story. That's what I think. You are free to disagree. People working on artificial intelligence and splaceflight do sometimes say they were inspired by SF. > then in your restatement or >clarification you say, "OK, maybe a few do." . . . Yes, hypothetically, perhaps, and anything is possible, but in my experience that is not the kind of person who is attracted to the field. I might add that I do not know any CF scientists who say they are inspired by SF. Perhaps they are embarrassed to admit it? > So, seriously, in the interest >of saving time and avoiding needless contention (which results in am >abrupt end to what might have been a useful discussion as often as it >results in a flame war), why not originally say what you really mean which >is: "Although perhaps a few biologists draw inspiration from SF, biology >researchers do not call department meetings to review a pile of SF >magazines . . . Because this is not a court of law. I can make general statements and most readers will realize I am not asserting an absolute law of nature. People (other than you) do not insist that I frame every single assertion with a precisely qualified list of exceptions, examples and citations. When a person says "biologists don't read SF" it is clear from context he means the biologists he knows do not read it, and for that matter they don't often go in for body piercing or drag racing. In the interests of saving time, I suggest you stop nitpicking. > When I read Wilmut's exasperated comment > > about "anyone can tell by looking" that Dolly is a clone, I knew what he > > meant. I am a little surprised you were confused. > >I was not confused, Jed--I was trying (and am continuing to try) to get you >to recognize an ongoing habitual weakness in your rhetorical style so that >you might correct it and thus make forum exchanges with you easier and less >cluttered with "absolutist" statements which undercut your credibility. First of all, it wasn't MY statement, it was Wilmut's. Second, it wasn't absolutist, and it was perfectly correct. DNA tests were not needed; visual observations alone confirmed the experiment. He summarized that by saying "you can tell by looking." I understood him, the other readers in this forum apparently understood him, and I do not understand why you alone want to quarrel with him. You went off on a tangent and got the idea Wilmut meant you can tell a sheep is a clone by looking at her in isolation, which is ridiculous. This is your misinterpretation, and your problem, so do not argue with Wilmut or me. >You have often said that inventors should do X, Y, and Z to get their >projects supported, or patented, or accepted. Yes. These suggestions come from ordinary business school textbooks. >What I envision is you playing the role of the Venture Capitalist or CEO >(the guy with the money) while I ask you detailed questions about "what do I >need to show you Mr. $$$ so that you'll support my project?" I have often heard this question "what do I need to do?" I have a ready answer: Go to the library, bookstore, or Internet, and get a few books about business ventures and marketing. There are thousands of books on these subjects, but you don't need anything fancy. Something like "The Idiot's Guide" series would be fine. The basic concepts are simple, and the techniques are as old as civilization itself. Once you grasp them, you will be ready to approach venture capitalists, knowing their goals, methods and expectations. You will know how to present your case. Marketing an over-unity engine, an anti-gravity machine, or a cold fusion reactor is no different in principle from marketing a sack of kitty litter or a carton of underwear. I do, in fact, have some money, and I would be pleased to finance the first stages of a venture. I have often assisted scientists, mainly by purchasing equipment, such as two Seebeck calorimeters, at $6,000 each. It would not take much money to set up an approach to Bigger Money. If anyone ever shows up with a viable gadget and a reasonably cooperative attitude, I would be happy to help, with money and advice. (You have to take both the money & the advice. That's the golden rule: he who has the gold makes the rules.) Most inventors I have met have a hostile attitude, or they feel the world owes them a hundred million dollars up front. Such attitudes make it impossible for them to succeed. I would not waste time with one of them, even if I were convinced the machine works as claimed. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 07:52:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15511; Thu, 24 May 2001 07:50:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:50:06 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010524103741.0292f2d8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:49:57 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Effect Offer to have a useful discussion, was :Re: Re[2]: Raids , and In-Reply-To: References: <002001c0e3ef$5af57ae0$dbc21004@hppav> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Vnag31.0.3o3.T-H3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42788 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > Q: What is the device mentioned below which "has a huge effect"? An imaginary one, described here by Bruce Meland: "Tesla resonance devices work 24 hrs a day, no moving parts to wear out and more cost effective. ie 1/2 waffle iron size puts out 1200 watts." These pretend devices have been subject to imaginary raids by nonexistent men flying Black Helicopters, for no reason. It is an amusing urban myth, but don't bother trying to follow up on it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 08:29:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA22195; Thu, 24 May 2001 08:09:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:09:51 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nuclear Power: Safer and Cheaper Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:13:28 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010426174338.02814530@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010502174022.02900de8@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010502174022.02900de8@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052411132800.01016@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA22160 Resent-Message-ID: <"HTo-i1.0.jQ5.-GI3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42789 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 02 May 2001 15:26, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >***{Incorrect. A kilogram of uranite (UO2) contains about 880 g of uranium, > >which in turn contains 6.34 g of U-235. That is 6.34/235 = .027 moles, or > >1.62x10^22 atoms which are available for fission. The total energy release > >per fission for U-235 is about 200 MeV, so that gives us 3.25x10^24 MeV/kg > >of Uranite, which is 2.24x10^8 BTU's/lb. Heats of combustion for the best > >grades of coal, by way of contrast, are about 14.6 BTU's/lb. The > >implication: you would need to extract 15,337,778 lbs of the very best > >coal, to produce the amount of energy contained in a pound of uranite. > > That's wrong, according to the ANS and every other source I know of. I have > a sample fake uranium fuel pellet from the ANS. The package says it has as > much energy as 3 barrels of oil (126 gallons) or 1 ton of coal (2,000 > lbs.). I cannot find the precise mass of the fuel pellet, but my ruler > shows the size is 1.5 cm x 0.8 cm, which comes to 0.75 cm^3. U fuel weighs > 10.2 grams per cubic cm, so that's 7.7 grams, or 0.017 lbs. In other words, > the ratio is 1:117,647. > > > >That means even the lowest grade uranium ore that is used in commerce has a > >mind-bogglingly higher energy content per pound than the highest grade coal > >that is used. > > The ore is not pure when it comes out of the ground, whereas the coal is. > The ore must be concentrated, purified and processed, which takes a great > deal of energy. By the time you are finished, I believe the ratio is around > 1:1,000 but that still does not cover the dollar and energy expense of > disposing of the spent fuel. Recycling is an entirely different matter. > > > > And, since the mechanics of mining do not vary much > >regardless of whether uranium or coal is being extracted . . . > > Actually, they do. Uranium is poisonous, so mining has to be done more > carefully, at much greater expense. > > > >, that in turn > >means vastly, mind-bogglingly fewer workers need to be involved in the > >extraction process . . . > > Fewer workers are needed to mine the ore, but more are needed to process it > and prepare and test the pellets. In any case, labor is only a small > fraction of the cost of any energy system. > > > >***{To meet the power needs of the U.S. with windmills, mind-boggling > >numbers would have to be manufactured, transported to appropriate sites, > >erected, and maintained. > > The numbers are not mind boggling at all. Recomputing the numbers below . . > .. Late model turbines produce 1.0 to 2.5 MW per turbine, so we would need > about 30,000 in large states like Texas and California. Say 750,000 to > 1,000,000 nationwide. The mass of material and construction cost would be > less than the materials used by the U.S. fleet 4.1 million commercial > trucks. The machines last longer than a truck or railroad engine; projected > lifetimes are now 30 years. > > This mass of towers and turbines would eliminate the need for oil well > heads and pumps, ocean well drill platforms, strip mines and other fossil > fuel infrastructure, which also takes up a lot of space, materials, and energy. > > > > That would require exposing vastly greater numbers > >of workers to accidents . . . > > Incorrect. The accident rate for large scale wind installations is lower > than in the fossil fuel extraction and energy generation business, by all > measurements, including accidents per MWH. Industry safety is a big issue > these days, and topics like this are carefully researched. Almost all > serious accidents occur during the construction and maintenance of wind > towers; the accident rate during operation is zero, because the towers are > fully automatic, and unattended. Wind is particularly well suited to > automatic operation. Even hydro installations require more maintenance. > Roughly the same number of accidents occur during the construction and > maintenance phase of fossil fuel and nuclear plants and mines as wind > towers, but many more accidents occur during the operation, which is not > fully automatic. > > Small scale wind installations managed by farmers and homeowners are a lot > more dangerous. > > > > >> Result: to generate a megawatt of electricity, far fewer > > >> > persons are exposed to accidents in extraction, transportation, > > refining, > > >> > consumption, and disposal of waste, for nuclear, than for any other > > power > > >> > source. > > This result is imaginary and totally incorrect. It is made without > reference to actual industry statistics, studies, or other materials > available for free on web. It reminds me of the anti-CF factions who > endlessly spin numbers and facts out of thin air, without reading anything > or knowing anything about the subject at hand. > > > >Specifically, to generate the average U.S. daily electricity output of > >766,000 MW using the most efficient wind technology currently available > >would require the installation of 464,242 of the 1.65 MW Vestas V66 wind > >turbines. The V66, however, is a gigantic, Rube Goldberg type of machine: > >to support its three 33 m (108 ft) blades, each V66 requires a massive > >welded steel tower with a height of 60 to 100 m (197 to 328 feet) and a > >weight in excess of 80 metric tons . . . > > So what? How much do the 4 million trucks weigh? How long would these > machines last, and how complicated are they compared to conventional > aeroderivative gas fired turbines? Talk about a Rube Goldberg machine! A > gas turbine has to operate in much more extreme conditions than a wind turbine. > > - Jed Ah yes the 'waste'. This is the time dishonored argument put out originally by foreign economic saboteurs and agents provocateurs to a gullible American public that was spoiled and too well fed for their own good. Like PT Barnum said about fools being born every minute, this was especially true of our public here in the United States in the last quarter century. Another variety of self serving semi fool used a similar Luddite argument put out by the same foreigners in order to evade the draft. A philiosopher once stated that when treason prospers, the state is soon to fall. The agitators were just doing their job for China, the USSR, for Iran or whoever. The Americans that followed with their bodies and left their minds at home are traitors and should be tried as such even if the trials are 25 years from now and 50 years posthumously. When I was at the university, I saw these agents in action. They usually immigrated here on a student visa and usually never wanted for money. They had no other visible means of support, but were ready sources for illegal substances. They, with their funny accents and middle eastern looks and rose varicolored glasses would turn up in the background of every 'demonstration'. Those demonstrations were farces. A rock band would mysteriousely show up near a lunchtime gathering place for students, set up very quickly, and begin playing. Soon a crowd gathered to listen to the free 'concert'. When the crowd was big enough, the band would quit and leave as suddenly as they arrived, leaving a small podium. At the same time, 10 to 20 agitators would filter into the crowd while a speaker suddenly appeared at the 'podium'. A quick speech would follow. Within a few seconds of the beginning of the speech, the infiltrators would unfurl their signs of 'protest' in various strategic and photographable places in the crowd. The speech would be over quickly, as the crowd soon left after it percieved itself as being used; but not quick enough, as photographers would photograph this small crowd from several angles at just the right moment. Later these pictures would be developed, arranged and re-processed in such a way to make the crowd appear larger. One way to do it was to shoot the same area before the 'event' when no one was there and the light conditions were the same. This could be used as a backdrop negative to be overlaid with cutout copies of the crowd negative in order to make the 'crowd' as large as plausibly believed possible. The resulting 'picture' was then released to the popular press as would print it, along with its captioned pre-written 'news' clip. Such is one way the press was manipulated, Marshal MacLuhan style, in the last part of the 29th century. To be sure, the campuses had their share of Rasputin eyed men and women of every political stripe and gullibility. Many of these people, once fooled, stayed fooled and closed their minds to any thought that stubborn pride would not admit to. Long after the original agents went home to there own countries, these individuals kept treasonous faith to these anti-ideals and yet even now seek to sabotage our society with failed and patently false arguments. Ultimately, it will take a command decision of a draconian nature to end this. Energy shortages now are just the tip of a very large iceberg. At some point in time, chemical fuel consumption will produce enough carbon oxides to destabilize the atmosphere besides the climate. If the government wants to put all the stuff in Yucca Mountain, then let it. The stuff for a very large part is innocuous. A glove used by a workman to handle a shovel or other object deemed hazardous becomes nuclear waste when removed and discarded. Same for other items of clothing that were in warm areas once too often. Most waste materials are just that. Energy producing materials are and should be held for reprocessing. Over 95 percent of all waste has contaminants with half lives of less than 10 seconds. That is right, in an hour you could sleep on it and dream of eternal life. Most of these obstructionists seem to glorify the governments of countries most of us would not be caught dead in. If that is what they like, let them go there. Another thing. Many socialist countries have gone through these debates before and have a way of dealing with them that our Luddites would love. It is called 'democratic centralism'. That is when a group makes a decision that all support, then the group has to go along with it as a whole or violate party discipline. I read the debate in the previous thread and could see that it was a dialog of the deaf. Such is the state of society as there will always be some whose mental doors closed a long time ago and will never open in this life. Our problem is that too many want to listen to them and suffer the consequences. I suspect that the age of listening is drawing to a swift close. It has become personally expensive to continue to listen to specious drivel and malicious half truths. The 'me' generation will be its own self limiting force of rebirth. We may not like the children of this rebirth as the idealogical ghosts of Gregor Strasser and Huey Long stalk the land finding new converts under every failed dream. We need that nuclear power, as an independant nation and as a world society. Everybody needs it. Even the Japanese realize this. They are building the 'Clinch River Breeder' as I write this; and they KNOW all about the dangers of nuclear weapons and live with it every day. If they can live with it, why not us????!!! Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 08:35:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27036; Thu, 24 May 2001 08:27:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:27:35 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0e45b$82d18560$e3181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Tonight on Art Bell Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 06:57:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"iAfJT2.0.Mc6.dXI3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42790 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am not sure Hoagland is a must read but Barry and The Boys is a must read. I have read some Congressional Testimonies that backs up Dan Hopsicker's expose if the Trillion Dollar Drig Trade and partys involved. Also check out www.almartinraw.com for an insiders view of of the money trail. Al Martin was involved with handling the quite a bit of drug money. w From: thomas malloy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:43 AM Subject: Tonight on Art Bell >Just when you thought it couldn't get any weider, it does. > >Richard Hoagland was on the program again. It seems that those rocket >scientists, NASA are planning on having a press conference tomorrow, >May 24. Richard thinks that they are going to announce that they are >going to release a high resolution image of the formation on Mars, >you know the one, it looks sort of like the sphinx, > >BTW, check out this URL, www.barryandtheboys.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 09:19:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14173; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:17:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:17:36 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:16:02 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Primordial Gas Cloud Resent-Message-ID: <"BwGZP1.0.NT3.VGJ3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42791 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If, as it appears, the Pioneer anomaly is due to the existence of a diffuse cloud of gas outside of the planetary disc, such that when a deep space probe passes through those regions, it "ices up" and slows down, then some rather interesting questions arise. For example, what force prevents the primordial gas cloud from being drawn into the planetary disc by gravitational attraction? After all, if we assume that the cloud is rotating around the polar axis of the sun, then the centrifugal force vector acting on each specific gas molecule will in all cases be perpendicular to the polar axis of the sun, whereas the gravitational force vector will point at the center of mass of the sun. Since the gravitational force vector can be resolved into a component perpendicular to the polar axis of the sun and a component perpendicular to the planetary disc, and since the centrifugal force vector has no component perpendicular to the planetary disc, one naturally wonders what prevents gas particles that are above or below the planetary disc from spiraling toward it. How could the planetary disc possibly remain clear of gases, if the regions above and below it are not clear? The implication is that there must be a force acting to push gas molecules away from the planetary disc. But what force? A possible answer: as the sun rotates, it acts like a gigantic squirrel cage blower, sucking aether particles in at its poles, passing them through its interior, and then hurling them outward along the plane of the planetary disc. In the circulation pattern that results, each individual aether particle moves outward along the plane of the planetary disc, then perpendicular to it (either upward or downward) along streamlines that converge on the polar axis of the sun, and then flow into the sun near the poles, after which the cycle repeats again. Result: the aether wind blows away from the planetary disc, and is strong enough to hold individual molecules of gases such as NH3, CH4, CO2, and H2O away from it, thereby maintaining a zone of relatively low density there. The Pioneer anomaly, in short, is evidence for the existence of the aether wind. I would add that if the sun were not rotating fast enough to generate the necessary aether wind, then the primordial gas cloud would enter the planetary disc, causing the planets themselves to ice up and slow down, just like Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11 are doing--which means: the planets of the solar system would expand into gas giants and spiral, one by one, into the sun. Thus this is a predictive theory: it implies that the stars which have gas giants close in--so called "roasters"--will have uniformly slow rotation rates. The rotation rate of a star, in short, determines whether it is capable of having Earth-type planets in its inner solar system. So there you have it. :-) --Mitchell Jones ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 12:15:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA14430; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:10:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:10:30 -0700 Message-ID: <012d01c0e47c$8576b1c0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud: Congress Reduces Solar System Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:07:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0E452.8C3971C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"OUlyj3.0.FX3.coL3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42792 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0E452.8C3971C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Congress Reduces Solar SystemHere you go, Mitchell. Lots of Gas There. Congress reduces solar system A Press Release Bob Haberle reporting. WASHINGTON D.C. The House Appropriations subcommittee on NASA oversight, = in another effort to reduce the NASA budget, passed a resolution today = to downsize the solar system. According to an unnamed congressional = staffer, House Republicans felt there has been "too much redundancy in = the solar system" and that streamlining the 4.5 billion year old = planetary system is long overdue. Such action would give NASA fewer = places to go and this would allow the agency to carry out its space = exploration goals within the funding profile that the House proposed = earlier this summer. "Look, we have three terrestrial planets" said Congressman Rip U. Apart = (R, Del.), "and only one of them really works! So why not get rid of the = other two and clean up the neighborhood?" Most subcommittee members felt = that while downsizing was definitely in the cards, eliminating both Mars = and Venus was going too far. "We have too many international commitments = to Mars." said Rush N. Hater (R, Calif.). "So I think we should keep = Mars and dump Venus. Its too hot to live on, and liberal Democrats keep = using it as an example of what global warming can do. So from a = political and practical point of view, Venus has got to go." Also at risk is the planet Mercury which lacks support because of its = small size and poor visibility from Earth. "Who needs it?" asked = Congressman Newt Onian (R, N.C.). "Have you ever seen it? I haven't. So = what good is it? We just don't need useless planets. And speaking of = useless planets, what about the asteroids? If you've seen one, you've = seen them all. So I say we ought to get rid of the little boogers once = and for all." However, the downsizing recommendations do not stop with the terrestrial = planets. The resolution also calls for a reduction in the number of gas = giants which contain most of the planetary mass in the solar system. = Most subcommittee members favor retaining Jupiter and Saturn, and = eliminating Uranus and Neptune. "Jupiter employs the most molecules, and = Saturn has those pretty little rings everyone likes." said Rep. Con Mann = (R, Fla.). "On the other hand, Uranus is a bore and its rings are dirty. = And Neptune, for God's sake, is just too far away. So begone with those = ugly bruisers." But the influential Wright I.M. Fornow from South Carolina has publicly = announced he will fight to eliminate Saturn. Fornow is especially miffed = by NASA's success thus far in keeping Cassini, the next mission to = Saturn, alive which he feels is waste of taxpayers money. "If there = ain't no Saturn, then there ain't no Cassini" he exclaimed. The = congressman also expressed concern about sending back-to-back spacecraft = bearing Italian surnames to the outer planets (The Galileo spacecraft = arrives at Jupiter this December). The subcommittee was unanimous in its views towards Pluto which they = deemed a moral misfit. "Now here's a planet we can definitely do = without." continued Fornow. "A few years ago, it was farthest from the = sun. Now its not. Its just too confusing. And now they tell me its = really two planets instead of one. What the hell is going on here?" The resolution must now be presented to the entire House, where it is = expected to pass easily since only a minority of Representatives have = constituents on the affected planets. NASA Administrator Golden has = vowed to resist any further reductions to the solar system, saying that = "NASA has expended considerable effort to make the planets cheaper, = faster, and better. Much of this work would be wasted if the solar = system were downsized" stated Golden. Critics say, however, that reducing the number of planets will not = produce the expected savings to taxpayers. Textbooks, they note, would = have to be revised to reflect the new arrangement, and facilities would = need to be constructed to remove the planets themselves. The resolution = is also likely to draw strong opposition from religious fundamentalists = who have long opposed the elimination of any of the biblical planets. = Thus, the matter is far from resolved. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Return to Infrequently Asked Questions April 9, 1997 lic=20 Washington Apple Pi IFAQ ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0E452.8C3971C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Congress Reduces Solar System
Here you go, Mitchell. Lots of Gas=20 There.

Congress reduces solar system

A Press Release

Bob Haberle reporting.

WASHINGTON D.C. The House Appropriations subcommittee on NASA = oversight, in=20 another effort to reduce the NASA budget, passed a resolution today to = downsize=20 the solar system. According to an unnamed congressional staffer, House=20 Republicans felt there has been "too much redundancy in the = solar=20 system" and that streamlining the 4.5 billion year old = planetary=20 system is long overdue. Such action would give NASA fewer places to go = and this=20 would allow the agency to carry out its space exploration goals within = the=20 funding profile that the House proposed earlier this summer.

"Look, we have three terrestrial planets" = said=20 Congressman Rip U. Apart (R, Del.), "and only one of them = really=20 works! So why not get rid of the other two and clean up the=20 neighborhood?" Most subcommittee members felt that while = downsizing=20 was definitely in the cards, eliminating both Mars and Venus was going = too far.=20 "We have too many international commitments to = Mars."=20 said Rush N. Hater (R, Calif.). "So I think we should keep = Mars and=20 dump Venus. Its too hot to live on, and liberal Democrats keep using it = as an=20 example of what global warming can do. So from a political and practical = point=20 of view, Venus has got to go."

Also at risk is the planet Mercury which lacks support because of its = small=20 size and poor visibility from Earth. "Who needs = it?"=20 asked Congressman Newt Onian (R, N.C.). "Have you ever seen = it? I=20 haven't. So what good is it? We just don't need useless planets. And = speaking of=20 useless planets, what about the asteroids? If you've seen one, you've = seen them=20 all. So I say we ought to get rid of the little boogers once and for=20 all."

However, the downsizing recommendations do not stop with the = terrestrial=20 planets. The resolution also calls for a reduction in the number of gas = giants=20 which contain most of the planetary mass in the solar system. Most = subcommittee=20 members favor retaining Jupiter and Saturn, and eliminating Uranus and = Neptune.=20 "Jupiter employs the most molecules, and Saturn has those = pretty=20 little rings everyone likes." said Rep. Con Mann (R, Fla.). = "On the other hand, Uranus is a bore and its rings are = dirty. And=20 Neptune, for God's sake, is just too far away. So begone with those ugly = bruisers."

But the influential Wright I.M. Fornow from South Carolina has = publicly=20 announced he will fight to eliminate Saturn. Fornow is especially miffed = by=20 NASA's success thus far in keeping Cassini, the next mission to Saturn, = alive=20 which he feels is waste of taxpayers money. "If there ain't = no=20 Saturn, then there ain't no Cassini" he exclaimed. The = congressman=20 also expressed concern about sending back-to-back spacecraft bearing = Italian=20 surnames to the outer planets (The Galileo spacecraft arrives at Jupiter = this=20 December).

The subcommittee was unanimous in its views towards Pluto which they = deemed a=20 moral misfit. "Now here's a planet we can definitely do=20 without." continued Fornow. "A few years ago, = it was=20 farthest from the sun. Now its not. Its just too confusing. And now they = tell me=20 its really two planets instead of one. What the hell is going on=20 here?"

The resolution must now be presented to the entire House, where it is = expected to pass easily since only a minority of Representatives have=20 constituents on the affected planets. NASA Administrator Golden has = vowed to=20 resist any further reductions to the solar system, saying that=20 "NASA has expended considerable effort to make the planets = cheaper,=20 faster, and better. Much of this work would be wasted if the solar = system were=20 downsized" stated Golden.

Critics say, however, that reducing the number of planets will not = produce=20 the expected savings to taxpayers. Textbooks, they note, would have to = be=20 revised to reflect the new arrangement, and facilities would need to be=20 constructed to remove the planets themselves. The resolution is also = likely to=20 draw strong opposition from religious fundamentalists who have long = opposed the=20 elimination of any of the biblical planets. Thus, the matter is far from = resolved.

Return to Infrequently Asked=20 Questions

April 9, 1997 lic
Washington Apple Pi = IFAQ
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0E452.8C3971C0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 12:32:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20579; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:29:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:29:49 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:26:36 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Resent-Message-ID: <"ouYsm1.0.T15.i4M3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42793 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] >The Pioneer anomaly, in short, is evidence for the existence of the aether >wind. > >I would add that if the sun were not rotating fast enough to generate the >necessary aether wind, then the primordial gas cloud would enter the >planetary disc, causing the planets themselves to ice up and slow down ***{To clear up any possible confusion, I would add that the slowing down that would occur immediately after the accretion of a gas particle would be quickly overcompensated for by the conversion of some planetary potential energy into kinetic energy, leaving the planet in question moving *faster*, but closer in to the parent star. Thus if one focuses on the situation *after* the overcompensation, the net effect of icing up would be to cause the planet to *speed up* while spiraling closer and closer to the stellar surface. --MJ}*** [snip] ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 12:49:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26036; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:43:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:43:45 -0700 Message-ID: <013901c0e481$2a71f780$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: The Primordial Gas Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:41:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"nRjIZ2.0.cM6.mHM3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42794 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seriously Mitchell, I think that the 4.6 Million Tonnes/sec conversion of mass into energy on the Sun that results in a Radiation Pressure from ~ 48 watts/meter^2 at about 5.2 AU (the orbital radius of Jupiter) coupled with the solar wind, can hold back the Primordial Gas Cloud. The photon momentum mc = 48/c should keep back a tenuous gas cloud. IOW, the Sun is creating a "bubble" around itself about 10.4 AU in diameter. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 12:54:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA28779; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:49:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:49:39 -0700 Message-Id: <200105241949.PAA20225@mercury.mv.net> Subject: Magnet therapy -- for Park's brain! Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:42:44 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed@pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"YEC-Y.0.a17.INM3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42795 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: All: Now let's see what Robert Park says about this! (Actually he very much needs this kind of therapy...): Science, May 18, 2001, pp. 1284-1286, "Boosting Brain Activity from the Outside In" Header to the piece: "Stimulating the brain with magnetic fields is not only a useful research tool, but can apparently alter cognition and ease depression. But exactly how it works is a bit of a mystery." I find it interesting how the writer, Laura Helmuth, in describing the research make no note of other kinds of magnet therapy, which are mocked by Park et al and -- I seem to recall --in Science itself. All best, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine/New Energy Research Lab Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 www.infinite-energy.com editor@infinite-energy.com Ph: 603-228-4516 Fx: 603-224-5975 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 13:22:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08588; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:20:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:20:49 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:20:07 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3b176cd0.317166733@mail.midiowa.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA08482 Resent-Message-ID: <"SAxdw1.0.162.VqM3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42796 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 24 May 2001 11:16:02 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote: >The rotation rate of a star, in short, determines whether >it is capable of having Earth-type planets in its inner solar system. > >So there you have it. :-) Good thought. -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 14:33:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02854; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:31:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:31:08 -0700 Message-ID: <015001c0e490$2a565b60$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: CNN.com - Pluto has new, far out peer - May 24, 2001 Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:28:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E466.370EFC60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"XRxhO2.0.Ti.RsN3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42797 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E466.370EFC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/24/beyond.pluto/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E466.370EFC60 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - Pluto has new, far out peer - May 24, 2001.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - Pluto has new, far out peer - May 24, 2001.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/24/beyond.pluto/index.html [DOC#35] BASEURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html ORIGURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/24/beyond.pluto/index.html Modified=607475F78FE4C00174 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E466.370EFC60-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 14:41:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05418; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:38:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:38:36 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <013901c0e481$2a71f780$9731b43f@computer> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:35:00 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Primordial Gas Resent-Message-ID: <"R1Nor3.0.VK1.RzN3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42798 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Seriously Mitchell, I think that the 4.6 Million Tonnes/sec >conversion of mass into energy on the Sun that results in >a Radiation Pressure from ~ 48 watts/meter^2 at about >5.2 AU (the orbital radius of Jupiter) coupled with the solar wind, can >hold back the >Primordial Gas Cloud. > >The photon momentum mc = 48/c should keep back a tenuous gas cloud. > >IOW, the Sun is creating a "bubble" around itself about 10.4 AU in diameter. ***{Three points: (1) The Ulysses space probe has an aphelion (maximum distance from the sun) of a mere 5.4 AU, and a maximum distance from the planetary disc of about 5.3 AU, due to the tilt of its orbit (about 79 degrees). (See http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/ulysses_index.htm and http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/orbitinfo.html.) That is well within the limit of your "bubble," yet outside the planetary disc (a.k.a. the ecliptic). My explanation predicts that it will ice up; yours predicts that it will not. Since it is icing up, it fits my explanation, but not yours. (2) The maximum possible aphelion of the Stardust probe would be (60/43)(1.9) = 2.65 AU, if we falsely assume that the tilt of its orbit is 90 degrees from the ecliptic. (See http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/images/poster98.jpg.) My explanation predicts that it will ice up; yours predicts that it will not. But, as noted previously, it is icing up. (3) Voyager 1 and 2 are in the planetary disc and more than 70 AU from the sun. Due to the great distance and the fact that, at some point, even probes in the planetary disc will ice up, my theory makes no prediction here. Yours, however, predicts that they will ice up. However, they are apparently *not* icing up, since they were not among the probes listed as showing the "Pioneer anomaly." Bottom line: your theory doesn't appear to fit the facts. --Mitchell Jones}*** >Regards, Frederick ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 14:57:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12063; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:53:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:53:26 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:51:21 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"IJVnJ2.0.Ay2.JBO3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42799 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell - > So there you have it. :-) So how come "black holes" suck stuff in so hard at their equators and blow it out so fast from the poles? This sort of makes sense to me with your aether wind flow direction if you think of the aether wind as space blowing past matter, causing a bit of a reaction in the opposite sense by masses within it. In other words, if space is flowing down into the poles, mass near the poles would experience an apparent force in the opposite direction of the movement, or away from the poles, which is the observed direction of mass flow from the poles of alleged "black holes". - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 15:50:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31042; Thu, 24 May 2001 15:45:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:45:47 -0700 Message-ID: <002e01c0e4a3$49e32900$ace13604@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: Subject: Re: Effect Offer to have a useful discussion, was :Re: Re[2]: Raids , and Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:45:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"pQlQJ1.0.ya7.RyO3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42800 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John, Subject: Effect Offer to have a useful discussion, was :Re: Re[2]: Raids , and > Dear Jeff, > > cuts....going to the way bottom of this letter: > > On Wed, 23 May 2001, Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra wrote: > > Q: What is the device mentioned below which "has a huge effect"? Actually, I don't know--you'll have to ask Jed and the person he was arguing with. I came into the argument by making some comments about black helicopter raids, but I haven't gone back to find out what the device is that was supposed to be the reason behind the raid. Jeff From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 16:21:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA11274; Thu, 24 May 2001 16:20:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:20:00 -0700 Message-ID: <001401c0e4a6$b8ae2b20$413dee3f@default> From: "Nick Reiter" To: References: Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:10:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"txRCO1.0.2m2.VSP3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42801 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick, and all; The flow of space into mass is, as I had presented, one of the prime features of McMaster's model of gravity. However, there is another feature that Dr. McMaster has attempted to model, though obtaining evidence would probably require a neutron beam source that could be spin polarized. The feature is the notion that the primary unit of mass is the neutron, and that the neutron emulates the action of a black hole. But not black holes as classically presented. This much I think I have also pesented in the past. At any rate, the model suggests that black holes are, instead of singularities, actually massive pumps that draw space radially inward (thus developing a mighty inward gravitational force from the convergence). However, space, along with any matter that happens to fall into the black hole is then ejected along two thin axial beams. The mass falling in past the event horizon is not pulled into an abstract singularity, but rather is reduced to some primal constituant, maybe even back into space or aether itself, then shot out the axial beams. Since normal atomic mass is typically composed of nuclei that are randomized, the flow of space into the radii of neutrons / black holes becomes homogeneous over the greater aggregate of mass, say of a planet. The net effect is that inward gravity, from the converging flow, is felt everywhere at more or less the same level. Now one then questions what becomes of the thin axial "anti" or outward space flow. Why does this not then cancel the inward force, if space is flowing in and out in an equilibrium state. Aha! The answer may lie in the convergence factor. Inward aether flow into mass, because of it's convergence, produces the gravitational force we are familiar with. However, since the outflow from the black hole or neutron is virtually one dimensional, as in a thin beam, it's degree of divergence is far smaller. Which means that it might not be felt over anywhere the distance that the gravitational force is felt; rather a much longer or much shorter range. Now hasn't the recent hubbub over the anti-gravitational force hinted that this force is said to manifest only over extremely vast distances? Just the vaguest of thoughts, to be sure NR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:51 PM Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud > > So how come "black holes" suck stuff in so hard at their equators and > blow it out so fast from the poles? > > This sort of makes sense to me with your aether wind flow direction > if you think of the aether wind as space blowing past matter, causing > a bit of a reaction in the opposite sense by masses within it. In > other words, if space is flowing down into the poles, mass near the > poles would experience an apparent force in the opposite direction of > the movement, or away from the poles, which is the observed direction > of mass flow from the poles of alleged "black holes". > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 16:52:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA26325; Thu, 24 May 2001 16:51:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:51:15 -0700 Message-ID: <002601c0e4a1$0454ae60$e0181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: "Robin van Spaandonk" Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:29:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"v7tsB3.0.7R6.nvP3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42802 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: He never reveals his latest model. IE money is needed to develop final product. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Wed, 16 May 2001 10:12:07 -0700: > >>Ask one of the Swat Teams; They took one on one of their later raids. > >Who did they take it from? (Secrecy at this point is obviously >pointless). >[snip] > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 17:15:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA03137; Thu, 24 May 2001 17:15:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:15:16 -0700 Message-ID: <018201c0e4a7$1a37a6a0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , References: Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:12:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"moAE21.0.fm.IGQ3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42803 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitchell Jones" To: Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 4:35 PM Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Mitchell Jones wrote > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >Seriously Mitchell, I think that the 4.6 Million Tonnes/sec > >conversion of mass into energy on the Sun that results in > >a Radiation Pressure from ~ 48 watts/meter^2 at about > >5.2 AU (the orbital radius of Jupiter) coupled with the solar wind, can > >hold back the > >Primordial Gas Cloud. > > > >The photon momentum mc = 48/c should keep back a tenuous gas cloud. > > > >IOW, the Sun is creating a "bubble" around itself about 10.4 AU in diameter. > > ***{Three points: > > (1) The Ulysses space probe has an aphelion (maximum distance from the sun) > of a mere 5.4 AU, and a maximum distance from the planetary disc of about > 5.3 AU, due to the tilt of its orbit (about 79 degrees). (See > http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/ulysses_index.htm and > http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/orbitinfo.html.) That is well within the > limit of your "bubble," yet outside the planetary disc (a.k.a. the > ecliptic). My explanation predicts that it will ice up; yours predicts that > it will not. Since it is icing up, it fits my explanation, but not yours. The lastime I checked 5.2 AU is less than 5.3 to 5.4 AU. Even when I agree with you, you disagree. :-) > > (2) The maximum possible aphelion of the Stardust probe would be > (60/43)(1.9) = 2.65 AU, if we falsely assume that the tilt of its orbit is > 90 degrees from the ecliptic. (See > http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/images/poster98.jpg.) My explanation predicts > that it will ice up; yours predicts that it will not. But, as noted > previously, it is icing up. If, as your micro comet water supply theory holds water (so to speak) Stardust could've collided with one or more of them or their gaseous tails, same as Ulysses did with the tail of Hyakutake in 1996 and iced up. > > (3) Voyager 1 and 2 are in the planetary disc and more than 70 AU from the > sun. Due to the great distance and the fact that, at some point, even > probes in the planetary disc will ice up, my theory makes no prediction > here. Yours, however, predicts that they will ice up. However, they are > apparently *not* icing up, since they were not among the probes listed as > showing the "Pioneer anomaly." How do you know what their status is? > > Bottom line: your theory doesn't appear to fit the facts. Does yours? :-) > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >Regards, Frederick > > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 17:31:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA08915; Thu, 24 May 2001 17:30:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:30:50 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:36:29 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <002601c0e4a1$0454ae60$e0181ad8@oemcomputer> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"FLg012.0.6B2.vUQ3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42804 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gee, I suppose if we give him a lot of money then he'll develop and sell the product? But Oops, just then the black helicopters will come and take it away again. Damn those pesky black helicopters! Maybe you should try performing some due dilligence and seek out his former investors, Bruce. I'd call him on the fact that if he's being harrassed because of his invention then all the money in the world is not going to help. Seeking more money is going to do what? And oh yeah, if he's got a 1200 Watt power supply the size of a waffle iron, how much more development does he need? This story is so full of holes it makes my teeth itch. Is it just me, or did everyone start taking stupid pills around the time of our last presidential election? K. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Meland [mailto:etimes@teleport.com] Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 6:30 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing He never reveals his latest model. IE money is needed to develop final product. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >In reply to Bruce Meland's message of Wed, 16 May 2001 10:12:07 -0700: > >>Ask one of the Swat Teams; They took one on one of their later raids. > >Who did they take it from? (Secrecy at this point is obviously >pointless). >[snip] > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 18:51:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA04513; Thu, 24 May 2001 18:50:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:50:53 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:53:27 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Resent-Message-ID: <"ERVCT.0.Q61.yfR3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42805 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell - > > > So there you have it. :-) > >So how come "black holes" suck stuff in so hard at their equators and >blow it out so fast from the poles? > >This sort of makes sense to me with your aether wind flow direction >if you think of the aether wind as space blowing past matter, causing >a bit of a reaction in the opposite sense by masses within it. In >other words, if space is flowing down into the poles, mass near the >poles would experience an apparent force in the opposite direction of >the movement, or away from the poles, which is the observed direction >of mass flow from the poles of alleged "black holes". ***{By my theory, "black holes" crush matter up into microparticles--specifically: into LeSage's "ultramundane corpuscles," and blast those particles out along their polar axes in the form of antigravity beams. Naturally, those beams carry any matter in the vicinity along with them. Since there are galaxies in mind-boggling numbers in all directions, there are galaxies with their polar axes pointed at us, in all directions. Result: the antigravity beams have the effect of pushing nearby masses toward one another--i.e., gravity. (I have posted this opinion here, and elsewhere, before.) Bottom line: nothing is flowing down the polar axis of a "black hole" toward its center, including particles from the larger substrates of the aether. The processes that take place in "black holes" are radically different from those that give rise to the aether circulation pattern around a star. --MJ}*** >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 18:52:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA04560; Thu, 24 May 2001 18:50:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:50:58 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <018201c0e4a7$1a37a6a0$9731b43f@computer> References: Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:49:14 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Resent-Message-ID: <"Oy6At1.0.A71.1gR3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42806 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mitchell Jones" >To: >Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 4:35 PM >Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud > >Mitchell Jones wrote > >> >> Frederick Sparber wrote: >> >> >Seriously Mitchell, I think that the 4.6 Million Tonnes/sec >> >conversion of mass into energy on the Sun that results in >> >a Radiation Pressure from ~ 48 watts/meter^2 at about >> >5.2 AU (the orbital radius of Jupiter) coupled with the solar wind, can >> >hold back the >> >Primordial Gas Cloud. >> > >> >The photon momentum mc = 48/c should keep back a tenuous gas cloud. >> > >> >IOW, the Sun is creating a "bubble" around itself about 10.4 AU in >>diameter. >> >> ***{Three points: >> >> (1) The Ulysses space probe has an aphelion (maximum distance from the sun) >> of a mere 5.4 AU, and a maximum distance from the planetary disc of about >> 5.3 AU, due to the tilt of its orbit (about 79 degrees). (See >> http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/ulysses_index.htm and >> http://helio.estec.esa.nl/ulysses/orbitinfo.html.) That is well within the >> limit of your "bubble," yet outside the planetary disc (a.k.a. the >> ecliptic). My explanation predicts that it will ice up; yours predicts that >> it will not. Since it is icing up, it fits my explanation, but not yours. > >The lastime I checked 5.2 AU is less than 5.3 to 5.4 AU. > >Even when I agree with you, you disagree. :-) ***{Woops. I was thinking you referenced a radius of 10.4 AU, whereas in fact you said *diameter*, giving a radius of 5.2 AU and leaving you with .1 AU of breathing room. (Whew! :-) However, that still leads to difficulties, since it isn't reasonable to suppose that the observed slowing down of that probe was due to an accumulation which took place solely at the outer limit of its range. The reports that I have read have suggested that an ongoing process of slowing down was observed, not a tiny interval of slowing down preceded and followed by lengthy intervals of normal behavior. As for your agreeing with me, I fail to see how your theory of a spherical "bubble" around the sun in which gases are repelled by photon pressure is the same as my idea of disc-shaped zone in which gases are repelled by an aether wind. In what sense are these notions the same? --Mitchell Jones}*** >> (2) The maximum possible aphelion of the Stardust probe would be >> (60/43)(1.9) = 2.65 AU, if we falsely assume that the tilt of its orbit is >> 90 degrees from the ecliptic. (See >> http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/images/poster98.jpg.) My explanation predicts >> that it will ice up; yours predicts that it will not. But, as noted >> previously, it is icing up. > >If, as your micro comet water supply theory holds water >(so to speak) Stardust could've collided with one or more of them or their >gaseous >tails, same as Ulysses did with the tail of Hyakutake in 1996 and iced up. ***{That's a bit ad hoc, don't you think? :-) --MJ}*** >> (3) Voyager 1 and 2 are in the planetary disc and more than 70 AU from the >> sun. Due to the great distance and the fact that, at some point, even >> probes in the planetary disc will ice up, my theory makes no prediction >> here. Yours, however, predicts that they will ice up. However, they are >> apparently *not* icing up, since they were not among the probes listed as >> showing the "Pioneer anomaly." > >How do you know what their status is? ***{According to the JPL report that I cited the other day, "A team of planetary scientists and physicists led by John Anderson (Pioneer 10 Principal Investigator for Celestial Mechanics) has identified a tiny unexplained acceleration towards the sun in the motion of the Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, and Ulysses spacecraft." (See http://spaceprojects.arc.nasa.gov/Space_Projects/pioneer/PNStat.html.) This report was apparently based on a 1998 Scientific American article, which antedated the launch of Stardust. However, it did *not* antedate the launch of Voyager 1 and Voyager 2, and so one would think that if the anomaly were present in their motion, they would have been listed. --MJ}*** >> Bottom line: your theory doesn't appear to fit the facts. > >Does yours? :-) ***{It conforms with the facts that are presently in evidence, so far as I can tell. If you see a problem that I am missing, please clue me in. --MJ}*** >> --Mitchell Jones}*** >> >> >Regards, Frederick ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 18:55:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA05458; Thu, 24 May 2001 18:53:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:53:50 -0700 Message-ID: <000901c0e4bd$8d6c22c0$98e13604@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010523103830.00a82ef0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010524093823.029237a8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: The useful discussion has begun. Was: (Oh, I don't know--something about helicopters and sheep not proving anything.) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:53:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"6i1Zq1.0.BL1.jiR3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42807 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, > Because this is not a court of law. No, but it is supposed to at least resemble a court of science where careful attention to nuance, caveats, and precise meanings of words weigh in more heavily than in a court of law. > People (other than you) do not insist that I frame every single assertion with a > precisely qualified list of exceptions, examples and citations. Yes, and have you noticed how shallow the scientific discussions tend to be here? There is no substitute for precise language and tight logic in a scientific discussion. You: > First of all, it wasn't MY statement, it was Wilmut's. Second, it wasn't > absolutist, and it was perfectly correct. I can't resist. Let's examine this sentence: "Second, it wasn't absolutist, and it was perfectly correct." Well, which is it? "Not absolutist" or "perfectly correct"? ******* And now for something completely different. > >What I envision is you playing the role of the Venture Capitalist or CEO > >(the guy with the money) while I ask you detailed questions about "what do I > >need to show you Mr. $$$ so that you'll support my project?" > > I have often heard this question "what do I need to do?" I have a ready > answer: Go to the library, bookstore, or Internet, and get a few books > about business ventures and marketing. There are thousands of books on > these subjects, but you don't need anything fancy. Something like "The > Idiot's Guide" series would be fine. The basic concepts are simple, and the > techniques are as old as civilization itself. Once you grasp them, you will > be ready to approach venture capitalists, knowing their goals, methods and > expectations. You will know how to present your case. OK, but I want to go beyond this to more specific issues involving a demonstration of the device the inventor has built or, more often, hopes to build with adequate funding. We'll assume that our inventor guy has reached the point where he has done the homework you outlined above. > Marketing an over-unity engine, an anti-gravity machine, or a cold fusion > reactor is no different in principle from marketing a sack of kitty litter > or a carton of underwear. No real disagreement there, but as you know, most inventors don't come in with anything like a "product" ready to be marketed. Some may come in with a fairly detailed idea about what they want to build, but have lacked the money to build it. Others may have been able to scrape together enough cash to do some experiments which lead them believe they could build their exotic device, but lack the money or time (e.g. they have a mundane day job) to build the actual device. Others may have a device that seems to work, but not at a very high level of performance, and they, again, need money and time to develop it. (We will assume that someone who comes in with a product that works show-stoppingly well right out of the crate won't have trouble getting support.) [Note--as you know, I'm no businessman--if you can restate my questions below in a way more appropriate or customary for businessmen, feel free to do so.] > I do, in fact, have some money, and I would be pleased to finance the first > stages of a venture. I have often assisted scientists, mainly by purchasing > equipment, such as two Seebeck calorimeters, at $6,000 each. Good. [And thank you on behalf of the alternative scientific amongst us--I know in your case that this was money well spent.] Now, what was it you saw from these scientists (by way of their scientific ideas, and/or experiments, and/or devices, and/or scientific training) that led you to be willing to give assistance? How did you evaluate their ideas, experiments, etc. since you are not yourself a scientist? Which criteria were important to you? > If anyone ever shows up with a viable gadget Does it have to be an already viable gadget? What if the inventor hasn't had enough money to make a viable gadget? What sort of presentation would he HAVE to make to you to get you to think he could indeed be successful in building his gadget? > and a reasonably cooperative attitude, I would be > happy to help, with money and advice. (You have to take both the money & > the advice. That's the golden rule: he who has the gold makes the rules.) Agreed--we will assume the inventor doesn't behave like certain graduate students who shall remain nameless did. > Most inventors I have met have a hostile attitude, or they feel the world > owes them a hundred million dollars up front. Such attitudes make it > impossible for them to succeed. I would not waste time with one of them, > even if I were convinced the machine works as claimed. They do tend to be their own worst enemies, don't they? kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 18:58:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07084; Thu, 24 May 2001 18:58:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:58:40 -0700 Message-ID: <001401c0e4be$3b20d320$98e13604@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <002601c0e4a1$0454ae60$e0181ad8@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:58:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"vMwEC1.0.Ik1.FnR3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42808 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > He never reveals his latest model. IE money is needed to develop final > product. If he never reveals his latest model, he ain't never gonna get no money. See my discussion with Jed. kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 19:19:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA12489; Thu, 24 May 2001 19:16:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:16:47 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005301c0e158$11d1aee0$4f181ad8@oemcomputer> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:14:14 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Resent-Message-ID: <"epOzU1.0.033.F2S3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42809 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{Bruce, the stuff you cited (below) sounds like a description of a radio antenna to me. Granted, you can pick up some energy that way, but in most cases not even enough to heat up a cup of coffee. Of course, back in Tesla's day, such ideas were exciting, because the state of knowledge did not yet permit even top scientists to place limits on the power that could be gained by such methods. No one yet knew how much electromagnetic energy was available from natural sources. Today, however, we do know: there ain't much. :-( --MJ}*** > THE LOST INVENTIONS OF NIKOLA TESLA > > Anonymous > > For starters, think of this as a solar-electric panel. Tesla's invention > is very different, but the closest thing to it in conventional technology > is in photovoltaic. One radical difference is that conventional > solar-electric panels consist of a substrate coated with crystalline > silicon; the latest use amorphous silicon. Conventional solar panels are > expensive, and, whatever the coating, they are manufactured by esoteric > processes. But Tesla's "solar panel" is just a shiny metal plate with a > transparent coating of some insulating material which today could be a > spray plastic. Stick one of these antenna-like panels up in the air, the > higher the better, and wire it to one side of a capacitor, the other going > to a good earth ground. Now the energy from the suns charging that > capacitor. Connect across the capacitor some sort of switching device so > that is can be discharges at rhythmic intervals, and you have an electric > output. Tesla's patent is telling us that it is the simple to get > electric energy. The bigger the are of the insulated plate, the more > energy you get. But this is more than a Solar panel" because it does not > necessarily need sunshine to operate. It also produces power at night. Of > course, this is impossible according to official science. For this > reason, you could not get a patent on such a invention today. Many an > inventor has learned this the hard way. Tesla had his problems with he > patent examiners, but today's free-energy inventor has it much tougher. > At the time of this writing, the U.S. Patent Office is headed by a Reagan > appointee who came to the office straight from a top executive position > with Phillips Petroleum. Tesla's free-energy receiver was patented in 1901 > as An Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant Energy. The patent refers > to "the sun, as well as other sources of radiant energy, like cosmic > rays." That the device works at night is explained in terms of the > night-time availability of cosmic rays. Tesla also refers to the ground > as "a vast reservoir of negative electricity." Tesla was fascinated by > radiant energy and its free-energy possibilities. He called the Crooke's > radiometer (a device which as vanes that spin in a vacuum when exposed to > radiant energy) "a beautiful invention." He believed that it would become > possible to harness energy directly by "connecting to the very wheelwork > of nature." His free-energy receiver is as close as he ever came to such > a device in his patented work. But on his 76th birthday at the ritual > press conference, Tesla (who was without the financial wherewithal to > patent but went on inventing in his head) announced a "cosmic-ray motor." > When asked if it was more powerful than the Crooke's radiometer, he > answered, "thousands of times more powerful." > > How it works > > From the electric Potential that exists between the elevated plate (plus) > and the ground (minus) energy builds in the capacitor, and, after "a > suitable time interval," the accumulated energy will "manifest itself in a > powerful discharge" which can do work. The capacitor says Tesla, should be > "of considerable electrostatic capacity," and its dielectric made of "the > best quality mica,' for it has to withstand potentials that could rupture > a weaker dielectric. Tesla give various options for the switching device. > One is a rotary switch that resembles a Tesia circuit controller. Another > is an electrostatic device consisting of two very light, membranous > conductors suspended in a vacuum. These sense the energy build-up in the > capacitor, one going positive, the other negative, and, at a certain > charge level, are attracted, touch, and thus fire the capacitor. Tesla > also mentions another switching device consisting of a minute air gap or > weak dielectric film which breaks down suddenly when a certain potential > is reached. The above is about all the technical detail you get in the > patent. Although I've seen a few cursory references to Tesla's invention > in my sampling of the literature of free-energy. I am not aware of any > attempts to verify it experimentally. ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 19:43:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA21984; Thu, 24 May 2001 19:41:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:41:32 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200105241949.PAA20225@mercury.mv.net> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:38:59 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Magnet therapy -- for Park's brain! Resent-Message-ID: <"wrEYM2.0.PN5.SPS3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42810 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >All: > >Now let's see what Robert Park says about this! (Actually he very much >needs this kind of therapy...): > >Science, May 18, 2001, pp. 1284-1286, "Boosting Brain Activity from the >Outside In" > >Header to the piece: "Stimulating the brain with magnetic fields is not >only a useful research tool, but can apparently alter cognition and ease >depression. But exactly how it works is a bit of a mystery." > >I find it interesting how the writer, Laura Helmuth, in describing the >research make no note of other kinds of magnet therapy, which are mocked >by Park et al and -- I seem to recall --in Science itself. ***{As I read your note, I was reminded of something I read, years ago, to the effect that human brain cells contain microscopic magnetite crystals, and so I did a web search on that phrase, and found the following interesting link: http://www.jps.net/brainsci/neuromag.htm. --MJ}*** >All best, > >Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief >Infinite Energy Magazine/New Energy Research Lab >Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. >PO Box 2816 >Concord, NH 03302-2816 > >www.infinite-energy.com >editor@infinite-energy.com >Ph: 603-228-4516 >Fx: 603-224-5975 ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 20:21:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA02051; Thu, 24 May 2001 20:21:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 20:21:19 -0700 Message-Id: <200105250321.XAA15808@mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Magnet therapy -- for Park's brain! Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:14:28 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed@pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"Tvtgt1.0.zV.k-S3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42811 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >***{As I read your note, I was reminded of something I read, years ago, to >the effect that human brain cells contain microscopic magnetite crystals, >and so I did a web search on that phrase, and found the following >interesting link: http://www.jps.net/brainsci/neuromag.htm. --MJ}*** Thanks. That explains our magnetic personalities. Gene From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 24 22:57:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA19605; Thu, 24 May 2001 22:57:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 22:57:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy@metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200105241949.PAA20225@mercury.mv.net> References: <200105241949.PAA20225@mercury.mv.net> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:57:26 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Magnet therapy -- for Park's brain! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"1TKge2.0.9o4.pGV3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42812 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There's no man I've ever come in contact with who needs a magnetic helmet more than Robert Park It Ain't what he knows for sure that the problem, it's what he knows for sure that just ain't so. -Will Rogers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 00:39:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA07859; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:38:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:38:55 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd01c0e4e5$14453ee0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:36:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E4BB.251DC860" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"htotI.0.jw1.EmW3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42813 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E4BB.251DC860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ambitious huh? http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/25/cometblaster.ap/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E4BB.251DC860 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - NASA approves mission to blast comet - May 25, 2001.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - NASA approves mission to blast comet - May 25, 2001.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/25/cometblaster.ap/index.html [DOC#35] BASEURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html ORIGURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/25/cometblaster.ap/index.html Modified=20203BCBE4E4C001CF ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E4BB.251DC860-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 00:47:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA09067; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:46:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:46:57 -0700 Message-ID: <01c001c0e4e6$2c81f7e0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: 9P-Tempel 1 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:43:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0E4BC.2B72C3E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"DtgQZ2.0.VD2.mtW3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42814 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0E4BC.2B72C3E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C0E4BC.2B72C3E0" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C0E4BC.2B72C3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 9P/Tempel 1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- 9P/Tempel 1=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Copyright=A91994 by Gerald Rhemann This image was obtained on 1994 April 3.95 UT with the = 171/200/257mm Schmidt camera. Exposure time was 6 minutes and the = photographic emulsion was hypered Technical Pan 2415. The comet's total = magnitude was then about 10.8. (The image has been cropped by the = webmaster to save space.)=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Discovery -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Ernst Wilhelm Liebrecht Tempel (Marseille, France) discovered = this faint, diffuse comet in Libra on 1867 April 3.90. Later = calculations revealed it was then situated 0.71 AU from Earth and 1.64 = AU from the sun. Tempel noted "The comet had an apparent diameter of 4 = to 5 [arcmin] and was in the middle, where several little stars were = seen pulsating, only a little condensed."=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Historical Highlights -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- a.. The comet was very well placed during the 1867 discovery = apparition thanks to the closest approach to Earth (0.568 AU) and the = perihelion (1.562 AU) occurring on May 15 and 24, respectively. = Subsequently there were numerous observations which ultimately covered = nearly 5 full months. The comet was last detected on August 27.8 by J. = F. Julius Schmidt (Athens), at which time it was too faint for position = measurements. The comet was then 1.30 AU from Earth and 1.81 AU from the = sun. The comet attained its maximum coma diameter during early May when = several estimates placed it near 4 arcmin across. Total magnitude = estimates were not typically made during this period in history, but = estimates of the magnitude of the nucleus, or at least the most = brilliant, condensed portion of the coma, reached a maximum of 10.5 = shortly before mid-May.=20 b.. The comet was first recognised as periodic early in May when C. = Bruhns (Leipzig) determined the orbital period as 5.74 years. By the = time of the final observations, the orbital period had been better = pinpointed to 5.68 years.=20 c.. Conditions for the comet's recovery in 1873 were very good, with = the circumstances being only marginally worse than in 1867. Subsequently = the comet was recovered on April 4, by E. J. M. Stephan (Marseille, = France). The comet remained under observation until July 1.=20 d.. Predictions were made for the 1879 return, with the most = ambitious being that of Raoul Gautier who computed definitive orbits for = the previous two appearances before making his prediction for the = upcoming return. This prediction enabled Tempel to recover his comet on = April 25. Conditions for this apparition were nearly identical to those = of 1873, but a full moon early in April 1879 caused the later recovery. = The comet was last detected on July 8.=20 e.. The comet passed 0.55 AU from Jupiter during 1881 and the = orbital period was increased to 6.5 years. This situation caused the = comet to be observable only at every other return. In addition the = perihelion distance was increased from 1.8 AU to 2.1 AU, making the = comet an even fainter object. Subsequently, the comet was not seen at = its next returns. Photographic attempts during 1898 and 1905 also failed = to recover the comet.=20 f.. An investigation as to why this comet became lost was conducted = by B. G. Marsden during 1963. He found further close approaches to = Jupiter in 1941 (0.41 AU) and 1953 (0.77 AU) had actually decreased both = the perihelion distance and orbital period to values smaller than when = the comet was initially discovered in 1873. Subsequently, predictions = were published for the 1967 and 1972 returns, the former of which was = not particularly favorable, while the latter was expected to be = exceptional.=20 g.. Despite the unfavorable 1967 return, Elizabeth Roemer (Catalina = Observatory) took several photographs during mid-1967. Her initial = inspections revealed nothing, but during late 1968 she re-examined the = photographic plates and found one exposed on 1967 June 8 that held the = image of an 18th-magnitude diffuse object very close to Marsden's = predictions. The single image did not provide definite proof of the = comet's existence, so confirmation had to await the 1972 return.=20 h.. The 1972 return was very favorable. Marsden's predictions = enabled Roemer and L. M. Vaughn to recover the comet on January 11 from = Steward Observatory. The comet became widely observed and reached a = maximum magnitude of 11 during late May. The comet was last seen on July = 10. This apparition proved that the single image found in 1967 was = indeed 9P/Tempel 1. The comet has been seen at every apparition since = 1972, so that it has been seen at 9 different apparitions since its = discovery in 1873.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- C&MS Home | Currently Visible | Sungrazers | Comet = Information | Comet WWW Links If you have any questions, please email me ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C0E4BC.2B72C3E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 9P/Tempel 1
 

    9P/Tempel = 1

    3D"G.
    Copyright=A91994 by Gerald=20 Rhemann

          This image was = obtained on=20 1994 April 3.95 UT with the 171/200/257mm Schmidt camera. = Exposure time=20 was 6 minutes and the photographic emulsion was hypered = Technical Pan=20 2415. The comet's total magnitude was then about 10.8. (The = image has=20 been cropped by the webmaster to save space.)=20

    Discovery

          Ernst Wilhelm Liebrecht Tempel = (Marseille,=20 France) discovered this faint, diffuse comet in Libra on 1867 April = 3.90.=20 Later calculations revealed it was then situated 0.71 AU from Earth = and 1.64=20 AU from the sun. Tempel noted "The comet had an apparent diameter of 4 = to 5=20 [arcmin] and was in the middle, = where several=20 little stars were seen pulsating, only a little condensed."

    Historical Highlights

    • The comet was very well placed during the 1867 discovery = apparition=20 thanks to the closest approach to Earth (0.568 AU) and the = perihelion (1.562=20 AU) occurring on May 15 and 24, respectively. Subsequently there = were=20 numerous observations which ultimately covered nearly 5 full months. = The=20 comet was last detected on August 27.8 by J. F. Julius Schmidt = (Athens), at=20 which time it was too faint for position measurements. The comet was = then=20 1.30 AU from Earth and 1.81 AU from the sun. The comet attained its = maximum=20 coma diameter during early May when several estimates placed it near = 4 arcmin across. Total magnitude = estimates were=20 not typically made during this period in history, but estimates of = the=20 magnitude of the nucleus, or at least the most brilliant, condensed = portion=20 of the coma, reached a maximum of 10.5 shortly before mid-May.=20

    • The comet was first recognised as periodic early in May when C. = Bruhns=20 (Leipzig) determined the orbital period as 5.74 years. By the time = of the=20 final observations, the orbital period had been better pinpointed to = 5.68=20 years.=20

    • Conditions for the comet's recovery in 1873 were very good, with = the=20 circumstances being only marginally worse than in 1867. Subsequently = the=20 comet was recovered on April 4, by E. J. M. Stephan (Marseille, = France). The=20 comet remained under observation until July 1.=20

    • Predictions were made for the 1879 return, with the most = ambitious being=20 that of Raoul Gautier who computed definitive orbits for the = previous two=20 appearances before making his prediction for the upcoming return. = This=20 prediction enabled Tempel to recover his comet on April 25. = Conditions for=20 this apparition were nearly identical to those of 1873, but a full = moon=20 early in April 1879 caused the later recovery. The comet was last = detected=20 on July 8.=20

    • The comet passed 0.55 AU from Jupiter during 1881 and the = orbital period=20 was increased to 6.5 years. This situation caused the comet to be = observable=20 only at every other return. In addition the perihelion distance was=20 increased from 1.8 AU to 2.1 AU, making the comet an even fainter = object.=20 Subsequently, the comet was not seen at its next returns. = Photographic=20 attempts during 1898 and 1905 also failed to recover the comet.=20

    • An investigation as to why this comet became lost was conducted = by B. G.=20 Marsden during 1963. He found further close approaches to Jupiter in = 1941=20 (0.41 AU) and 1953 (0.77 AU) had actually decreased both the = perihelion=20 distance and orbital period to values smaller than when the comet = was=20 initially discovered in 1873. Subsequently, predictions were = published for=20 the 1967 and 1972 returns, the former of which was not particularly=20 favorable, while the latter was expected to be exceptional.=20

    • Despite the unfavorable 1967 return, Elizabeth Roemer (Catalina=20 Observatory) took several photographs during mid-1967. Her initial=20 inspections revealed nothing, but during late 1968 she re-examined = the=20 photographic plates and found one exposed on 1967 June 8 that held = the image=20 of an 18th-magnitude diffuse object very close to Marsden's = predictions. The=20 single image did not provide definite proof of the comet's = existence, so=20 confirmation had to await the 1972 return.=20

    • The 1972 return was very favorable. Marsden's predictions = enabled Roemer=20 and L. M. Vaughn to recover the comet on January 11 from Steward=20 Observatory. The comet became widely observed and reached a maximum=20 magnitude of 11 during late May. The comet was last seen on July 10. = This=20 apparition proved that the single image found in 1967 was indeed = 9P/Tempel=20 1. The comet has been seen at every apparition since 1972, so that = it has=20 been seen at 9 different apparitions since its discovery in 1873. =

    C&MS Home=20   |  Currently = Visible  =20 |  Sungrazers   |  Comet Information   |  Comet WWW Links

    If you have any questions, please email=20 me

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e9a465t620ApABFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAf/9k= ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0E4BC.2B72C3E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 01:02:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA11731; Fri, 25 May 2001 01:02:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:02:00 -0700 Message-ID: <01d701c0e4e8$4da0bfe0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:59:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0E4BE.5BE30E20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"z6o2H.0.Dt2.u5X3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42815 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0E4BE.5BE30E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fits inside the 5.2 AU "Bubble", Mitchell. http://www.ball.com/aerospace/di_misover.html ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0E4BE.5BE30E20 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Deep Impact Mission Overview.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Deep Impact Mission Overview.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.ball.com/aerospace/di_misover.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.ball.com/aerospace/di_misover.html Modified=E012E2F0E7E4C00150 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C0E4BE.5BE30E20-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 07:39:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA29196; Fri, 25 May 2001 07:36:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 07:36:20 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010525100850.028d89e8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:36:16 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing In-Reply-To: <002601c0e4a1$0454ae60$e0181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3Iula1.0.687.atc3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42816 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bruce Meland wrote: >He never reveals his latest model. IE money is needed to develop final >product. Bruce: Let me get this straight. He never reveals his latest model, and all of his previous models have been taken away by the Helicopter Men. Right? They also took all photographs, videos, test results, affidavits from third party independent tests, and -- in short -- every scrap of evidence that the device ever existed. Look at the situation from my point of view, as a potential investor. Because your friend Mr. X refuses to reveal his latest model, he leaves me with no way to judge his claims. I cannot tell whether Mr. X really has something, or whether he is a outright fraud, or a lunatic. No investor would consider funding him without proof the device is real. Now consider, if Mr. X would change his policy, and reveal his latest model, within weeks he would have hundreds of thousands of dollars, and in a few years he would be a billionaire, and among the most famous and honored people in history. Since he has every reason to reveal it, and no rational reason to hide it, in my opinion he must be either a fraud or a lunatic, or both. I do not think there is any likelihood the device is real, but for the sake of argument suppose it is. Mr. X's policies mean he can never develop it, or sell it. Like Stanley Meyer and many others, he is determined to carry his "secret" to the grave. Nobody will ever know or care whether it was real. I suggest you send him a copy of this message, and report back his response. Let me warn you that people like Mr. X are a dime a dozen, and as far as I know they are all liars. If you believe him, you are extremely gullible. Any money you "invest" with him is as good as gone. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 09:55:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA10380; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:51:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:51:12 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01d701c0e4e8$4da0bfe0$9731b43f@computer> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:48:29 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Resent-Message-ID: <"PT96m1.0.6Y2._re3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42817 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Fits inside the 5.2 AU "Bubble", Mitchell. ***{Yep. However, I can't tell what the tilt of the probe's orbit will be from the data that were given, hence I have no way of knowing whether the thing will be in the planetary disc or outside of it. (My guess is inside, since this is a short period comet, and was probably originally in the Kuiper belt, but I can't tell.) By the way, I'm not sure exactly how you got 5.2 AU. Your concept is that photon pressure from the sun will tend to resist the movement of individual gas molecules toward the sun, and I will grant that. However, the question of interest in each case is how far out from the sun does the photon pressure exceed the pull of gravity on the molecule, and I see no simple way to compute that without knowing the photon impact cross section of the molecule in question, and I would have no idea where to obtain that information. (You can't just sum the cross-sectional areas of the outer orbits of the atoms in the molecule, because many photons will pass through that area without hitting anything.) Therefore, how about supplying a detailed calculation, so that I can better evaluate what you are saying? --Mitchell Jones}*** > http://www.ball.com/aerospace/di_misover.html > >Content-Type: application/octet-stream; > name="Deep Impact Mission Overview.url" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: attachment; > filename="Deep Impact Mission Overview.url" > >Attachment converted: HD4000:Deep Impact Mission Overview.ur (????/----) >(00089ABA) ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 10:39:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28615; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:38:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:38:05 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:35:22 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Differential Rotation of the Sun Resent-Message-ID: <"K62TA1.0.x-6.xXf3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42818 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: According to the *Facts on File Dictionary of Astronomy*, pg. 443-444: "Spectroscopic measurements show that the rotation period continues to increase right up to the polar regions and that at any given latitude it decreases with height above the photosphere, except at the equator where the periods are approximately equal. The reason for this differential rotation is unknown." If, however, the sun is acting as a squirrel cage blower, sucking aether particles in near its poles, passing them through its interior, and hurling them outward near its equator, then every detail of the described differential rotation is explained: since the inflow of aether particles is centered on the sun's polar regions, they slow down its rotation more near the poles. And, since they enter from above the sun's surface, they exert their greatest slowing-down effects at the higher altitudes. It's simple! :-) --Mitchell Jones ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 11:42:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA16775; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:39:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:39:33 -0700 Message-ID: <004001c0e53f$79169f80$e5181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: "Mitchell Jones" Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:23:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"lg1LG.0.r54.aRg3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42819 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitch; That may be your theory because you have not spent 10 years like a couple of inventors did and are able to tap into a lot of energy. It also depends how fast one can heat a coffe cup. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell Jones To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Thursday, May 24, 2001 7:25 PM Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla >***{Bruce, the stuff you cited (below) sounds like a description of a radio >antenna to me. Granted, you can pick up some energy that way, but in most >cases not even enough to heat up a cup of coffee. Of course, back in >Tesla's day, such ideas were exciting, because the state of knowledge did >not yet permit even top scientists to place limits on the power that could >be gained by such methods. No one yet knew how much electromagnetic energy >was available from natural sources. Today, however, we do know: there ain't >much. :-( --MJ}*** > >> THE LOST INVENTIONS OF NIKOLA TESLA >> >> Anonymous >> >> For starters, think of this as a solar-electric panel. Tesla's invention >> is very different, but the closest thing to it in conventional technology >> is in photovoltaic. One radical difference is that conventional >> solar-electric panels consist of a substrate coated with crystalline >> silicon; the latest use amorphous silicon. Conventional solar panels are >> expensive, and, whatever the coating, they are manufactured by esoteric >> processes. But Tesla's "solar panel" is just a shiny metal plate with a >> transparent coating of some insulating material which today could be a >> spray plastic. Stick one of these antenna-like panels up in the air, the >> higher the better, and wire it to one side of a capacitor, the other going >> to a good earth ground. Now the energy from the suns charging that >> capacitor. Connect across the capacitor some sort of switching device so >> that is can be discharges at rhythmic intervals, and you have an electric >> output. Tesla's patent is telling us that it is the simple to get >> electric energy. The bigger the are of the insulated plate, the more >> energy you get. But this is more than a Solar panel" because it does not >> necessarily need sunshine to operate. It also produces power at night. Of >> course, this is impossible according to official science. For this >> reason, you could not get a patent on such a invention today. Many an >> inventor has learned this the hard way. Tesla had his problems with he >> patent examiners, but today's free-energy inventor has it much tougher. >> At the time of this writing, the U.S. Patent Office is headed by a Reagan >> appointee who came to the office straight from a top executive position >> with Phillips Petroleum. Tesla's free-energy receiver was patented in 1901 >> as An Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant Energy. The patent refers >> to "the sun, as well as other sources of radiant energy, like cosmic >> rays." That the device works at night is explained in terms of the >> night-time availability of cosmic rays. Tesla also refers to the ground >> as "a vast reservoir of negative electricity." Tesla was fascinated by >> radiant energy and its free-energy possibilities. He called the Crooke's >> radiometer (a device which as vanes that spin in a vacuum when exposed to >> radiant energy) "a beautiful invention." He believed that it would become >> possible to harness energy directly by "connecting to the very wheelwork >> of nature." His free-energy receiver is as close as he ever came to such >> a device in his patented work. But on his 76th birthday at the ritual >> press conference, Tesla (who was without the financial wherewithal to >> patent but went on inventing in his head) announced a "cosmic-ray motor." >> When asked if it was more powerful than the Crooke's radiometer, he >> answered, "thousands of times more powerful." >> >> How it works >> >> From the electric Potential that exists between the elevated plate (plus) >> and the ground (minus) energy builds in the capacitor, and, after "a >> suitable time interval," the accumulated energy will "manifest itself in a >> powerful discharge" which can do work. The capacitor says Tesla, should be >> "of considerable electrostatic capacity," and its dielectric made of "the >> best quality mica,' for it has to withstand potentials that could rupture >> a weaker dielectric. Tesla give various options for the switching device. >> One is a rotary switch that resembles a Tesia circuit controller. Another >> is an electrostatic device consisting of two very light, membranous >> conductors suspended in a vacuum. These sense the energy build-up in the >> capacitor, one going positive, the other negative, and, at a certain >> charge level, are attracted, touch, and thus fire the capacitor. Tesla >> also mentions another switching device consisting of a minute air gap or >> weak dielectric film which breaks down suddenly when a certain potential >> is reached. The above is about all the technical detail you get in the >> patent. Although I've seen a few cursory references to Tesla's invention >> in my sampling of the literature of free-energy. I am not aware of any >> attempts to verify it experimentally. >________________ >Quote of the month: > >"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can >be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 13:19:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA17725; Fri, 25 May 2001 13:10:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:10:28 -0700 Message-ID: <024e01c0e54e$0d140700$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:08:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"xEjMp2.0.kK4.qmh3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42820 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitchell Jones" To: Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 11:48 AM Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Mitchell Jones wrote: > >Fits inside the 5.2 AU "Bubble", Mitchell. > > ***{Yep. However, I can't tell what the tilt of the probe's orbit will be > from the data that were given, hence I have no way of knowing whether the > thing will be in the planetary disc or outside of it. (My guess is inside, > since this is a short period comet, and was probably originally in the > Kuiper belt, but I can't tell.) > > By the way, I'm not sure exactly how you got 5.2 AU. I picked 5.2 AU (The Mean Orbit of Jupiter) or less, as a radius wrt the Sun in AU where the onslaught of Photon Pressure and Solar Wind might allow a Moon like Europa to retain it's atmosphere. IOW, the Jovian planets would be a lot smaller if they were closer to the Sun. :-) > Your concept is that > photon pressure from the sun will tend to resist the movement of individual > gas molecules toward the sun, and I will grant that. However, the question > of interest in each case is how far out from the sun does the photon > pressure exceed the pull of gravity on the molecule, and I see no simple > way to compute that without knowing the photon impact cross section of the > molecule in question, and I would have no idea where to obtain that > information. (You can't just sum the cross-sectional areas of the outer > orbits of the atoms in the molecule, because many photons will pass through > that area without hitting anything.) Therefore, how about supplying a > detailed calculation, so that I can better evaluate what you are saying? Tomorrow soon enough? OTOH, watching the separated tail of a comet move around like a "Con-Trail" from a jet-liner gives an good indication of Solar Photon-Wind sweeping action. Regards, Frederick > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > http://www.ball.com/aerospace/di_misover.html > > > >Content-Type: application/octet-stream; > > name="Deep Impact Mission Overview.url" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Content-Disposition: attachment; > > filename="Deep Impact Mission Overview.url" > > > >Attachment converted: HD4000:Deep Impact Mission Overview.ur (????/----) > >(00089ABA) > > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 13:26:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20945; Fri, 25 May 2001 13:22:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:22:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0EBEDA.2FB5E98@suite224.net> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:21:46 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla References: <004001c0e53f$79169f80$e5181ad8@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Y0dlg2.0.875.hxh3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42821 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bruce Meland wrote: (snip) But Tesla's "solar panel" is just a shiny metal plate with a > >> transparent coating of some insulating material which today could be a > >> spray plastic. Stick one of these antenna-like panels up in the air, the > >> higher the better, and wire it to one side of a capacitor, the other > going > >> to a good earth ground. Hmmm..., sounds like Tesla was using Ben Franklin's idea, slightly modified, to store the charge flow from the well-known variation in atmospheric potential with altitude - something like 300 volts per meter, I think. This should work better without the insulation on one side of the plate - more collector area for ionic flow from the air. You don't need a thunderstorm for this to work - but if there is one, you get MAJOR current flow. :-) Ask a good physicist what the "internal impedance" of this power source is and I think you will find that it's too high to deliver a sustained power at a "payback" level. (Thunderstorm conditions excepted!) This seems like a very easy experiment to kill yourself with - all you need is an aluminum foil kite with a conducting string. The capacitor should charge to a voltage such that the corona discharge from the kite is in equilibrium with the local air potential at test altitude. My little book, "All About Lightning" by Martin A. Uman says that the voltage between the earth and the "electrosphere" (atmosphere from 30 to 40 miles altitude) in "fine weather" is about 300,000 volts. That should charge a capacitor very well! Again, we have the impedance problem to limit current flow. Hmmm, an aluminized mylar balloon should do the trick (if we could get it to 30 miles!). I am not aware of any > >> attempts to verify it experimentally. Well, it's pretty easy to try with a kite and music wire - BUT DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS UNLESS YOU ARE A TRAINED HIGH-VOLTAGE PHYSICIST. (In attitude as well as profession! :-) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 13:40:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24388; Fri, 25 May 2001 13:34:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:34:29 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:40:05 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"8EWzT1.0.wy5.L7i3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42822 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Mitch. So, are you saying that little energy is available in electromagnetic form from the environment? Can you please elaborate on why you think this? K. -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones@jump.net] Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 10:14 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla ***{Bruce, the stuff you cited (below) sounds like a description of a radio antenna to me. Granted, you can pick up some energy that way, but in most cases not even enough to heat up a cup of coffee. Of course, back in Tesla's day, such ideas were exciting, because the state of knowledge did not yet permit even top scientists to place limits on the power that could be gained by such methods. No one yet knew how much electromagnetic energy was available from natural sources. Today, however, we do know: there ain't much. :-( --MJ}*** > THE LOST INVENTIONS OF NIKOLA TESLA > > Anonymous > > For starters, think of this as a solar-electric panel. Tesla's invention > is very different, but the closest thing to it in conventional technology > is in photovoltaic. One radical difference is that conventional > solar-electric panels consist of a substrate coated with crystalline > silicon; the latest use amorphous silicon. Conventional solar panels are > expensive, and, whatever the coating, they are manufactured by esoteric > processes. But Tesla's "solar panel" is just a shiny metal plate with a > transparent coating of some insulating material which today could be a > spray plastic. Stick one of these antenna-like panels up in the air, the > higher the better, and wire it to one side of a capacitor, the other going > to a good earth ground. Now the energy from the suns charging that > capacitor. Connect across the capacitor some sort of switching device so > that is can be discharges at rhythmic intervals, and you have an electric > output. Tesla's patent is telling us that it is the simple to get > electric energy. The bigger the are of the insulated plate, the more > energy you get. But this is more than a Solar panel" because it does not > necessarily need sunshine to operate. It also produces power at night. Of > course, this is impossible according to official science. For this > reason, you could not get a patent on such a invention today. Many an > inventor has learned this the hard way. Tesla had his problems with he > patent examiners, but today's free-energy inventor has it much tougher. > At the time of this writing, the U.S. Patent Office is headed by a Reagan > appointee who came to the office straight from a top executive position > with Phillips Petroleum. Tesla's free-energy receiver was patented in 1901 > as An Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant Energy. The patent refers > to "the sun, as well as other sources of radiant energy, like cosmic > rays." That the device works at night is explained in terms of the > night-time availability of cosmic rays. Tesla also refers to the ground > as "a vast reservoir of negative electricity." Tesla was fascinated by > radiant energy and its free-energy possibilities. He called the Crooke's > radiometer (a device which as vanes that spin in a vacuum when exposed to > radiant energy) "a beautiful invention." He believed that it would become > possible to harness energy directly by "connecting to the very wheelwork > of nature." His free-energy receiver is as close as he ever came to such > a device in his patented work. But on his 76th birthday at the ritual > press conference, Tesla (who was without the financial wherewithal to > patent but went on inventing in his head) announced a "cosmic-ray motor." > When asked if it was more powerful than the Crooke's radiometer, he > answered, "thousands of times more powerful." > > How it works > > From the electric Potential that exists between the elevated plate (plus) > and the ground (minus) energy builds in the capacitor, and, after "a > suitable time interval," the accumulated energy will "manifest itself in a > powerful discharge" which can do work. The capacitor says Tesla, should be > "of considerable electrostatic capacity," and its dielectric made of "the > best quality mica,' for it has to withstand potentials that could rupture > a weaker dielectric. Tesla give various options for the switching device. > One is a rotary switch that resembles a Tesia circuit controller. Another > is an electrostatic device consisting of two very light, membranous > conductors suspended in a vacuum. These sense the energy build-up in the > capacitor, one going positive, the other negative, and, at a certain > charge level, are attracted, touch, and thus fire the capacitor. Tesla > also mentions another switching device consisting of a minute air gap or > weak dielectric film which breaks down suddenly when a certain potential > is reached. The above is about all the technical detail you get in the > patent. Although I've seen a few cursory references to Tesla's invention > in my sampling of the literature of free-energy. I am not aware of any > attempts to verify it experimentally. ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 14:09:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA01991; Fri, 25 May 2001 14:05:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:05:33 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010525100850.028d89e8@pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010525100850.028d89e8@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:05:47 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"wXmlg1.0.1V.Tai3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42823 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Bruce Meland wrote: > >>He never reveals his latest model. IE money is needed to develop final >>product. > >Bruce: Let me get this straight. He never reveals his latest model, >and all of his previous models have been taken away by the >Helicopter Men. Right? They also took all photographs, videos, test >results, affidavits from third party independent tests, and -- in >short -- every scrap of evidence that the device ever existed. > >Look at the situation from my point of view, as a potential >investor. Because your I totally agree with you Jed, since I work in venture capital I do look at this from the POV of a potential investor. In addition to the possibility that Mr. X is liar, consider this. If the invisible government, the IG, is sending it's goon squads to stop him, what chance would any investor or organization have of successfully marketing the product? >I suggest you send him a copy of this message, and report back his >response. Let me warn you that people like Mr. X are a dime a dozen, >and as far as I know they are all liars. If you believe him, you are >extremely gullible. Any money you "invest" with him is as good as >gone. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 14:21:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA06125; Fri, 25 May 2001 14:15:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:15:40 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010525170349.028d89e8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:15:37 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla In-Reply-To: <3B0EBEDA.2FB5E98@suite224.net> References: <004001c0e53f$79169f80$e5181ad8@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"d19E2.0.YV1.yji3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42824 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Hmmm..., sounds like Tesla was using Ben Franklin's idea, slightly >modified . . . >My little book, "All About Lightning" by Martin A. Uman says that >the voltage between the earth and the "electrosphere" (atmosphere >from 30 to 40 miles altitude) in "fine weather" is about 300,000 >volts. . . . Perhaps a "space elevator" (described by Clarke and various others) could take advantage of this. >Well, it's pretty easy to try with a kite and music wire - BUT DO NOT >ATTEMPT THIS UNLESS YOU ARE A TRAINED HIGH-VOLTAGE PHYSICIST. (In >attitude as well as profession! :-) Franklin, the first high voltage physicist, did some other hair raising (literally!) experiments after his famous kite flight. I think I recall he had some lighting rod wires running down the *inside* walls of his house to ground. He would set up various experiments with them, and enjoy watching them glow and spark as storms gathered. The world's first indoor electric lighting. Maybe it was someone else of that era -- but I think it was Franklin. King George III, who was an accomplished amateur scientist, disagreed with Franklin regarding the optimum shape of a lighting rod. He thought they should be rounded at the top. Franklin said they be pointed. Recent research shows that His Majesty was right. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 14:39:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11190; Fri, 25 May 2001 14:32:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:32:56 -0700 Message-ID: <026001c0e559$95580e80$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , References: <024e01c0e54e$0d140700$9731b43f@computer> Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:30:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"aVyjb2.0.mk2.8-i3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42825 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 2:08 PM Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud > >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > >Fits inside the 5.2 AU "Bubble", Mitchell. > > > > By the way, I'm not sure exactly how you got 5.2 AU. > > I picked 5.2 AU (The Mean Orbit of Jupiter) or less, as a radius wrt the Sun in AU > where the onslaught of Photon Pressure and Solar Wind might allow a Moon like Europa > to retain it's atmosphere. It would be a heck of a note if we find out that the Solar Photon-Wind "blew away" the atmosphere of Mars(~ 1.5 AU and 1/10th the mass of the Earth) wouldn't it? :-) Regards, Frederick > > IOW, the Jovian planets would be a lot smaller if they were closer to the Sun. :-) > > Your concept is that > > photon pressure from the sun will tend to resist the movement of individual > > gas molecules toward the sun, and I will grant that. However, the question > > of interest in each case is how far out from the sun does the photon > > pressure exceed the pull of gravity on the molecule, and I see no simple > > way to compute that without knowing the photon impact cross section of the > > molecule in question, and I would have no idea where to obtain that > > information. (You can't just sum the cross-sectional areas of the outer > > orbits of the atoms in the molecule, because many photons will pass through > > that area without hitting anything.) Therefore, how about supplying a > > detailed calculation, so that I can better evaluate what you are saying? > > Tomorrow soon enough? > > OTOH, watching the separated tail of a comet move around like a "Con-Trail" from a > jet-liner gives an good > indication of Solar Photon-Wind sweeping action. > > Regards, Frederick > > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > > http://www.ball.com/aerospace/di_misover.html > > > > > >Content-Type: application/octet-stream; > > > name="Deep Impact Mission Overview.url" > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >Content-Disposition: attachment; > > > filename="Deep Impact Mission Overview.url" > > > > > >Attachment converted: HD4000:Deep Impact Mission Overview.ur (????/----) > > >(00089ABA) > > > > ________________ > > Quote of the month: > > > > "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can > > be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 14:48:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15292; Fri, 25 May 2001 14:43:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:43:44 -0700 Message-ID: <026f01c0e55b$18f57ce0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: <004001c0e53f$79169f80$e5181ad8@oemcomputer> <3B0EBEDA.2FB5E98@suite224.net> Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:41:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"GqXjE.0.qk3.F8j3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42826 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francis J. Stenger" To: Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 3:21 PM Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Got a tin roof on your barn, Frank? Lottsa square feet and insulated from ground? :-) As a kid I used to watch the glow of the glass bulb/lightning rod gaps on the roof of a barn out at Pennline during thunderstorms. Lit up enough to see them in daylight. Regards, Frederick > > > Bruce Meland wrote: > > (snip) > > But Tesla's "solar panel" is just a shiny metal plate with a > > >> transparent coating of some insulating material which today could be a > > >> spray plastic. Stick one of these antenna-like panels up in the air, the > > >> higher the better, and wire it to one side of a capacitor, the other > > going > > >> to a good earth ground. > > Hmmm..., sounds like Tesla was using Ben Franklin's idea, slightly > modified, to store the charge flow from the well-known variation in > atmospheric potential with altitude - something like 300 volts per > meter, I think. > This should work better without the insulation on one side of the > plate - more collector area for ionic flow from the air. > You don't need a thunderstorm for this to work - but if there is one, > you get MAJOR current flow. :-) > > Ask a good physicist what the "internal impedance" of this power source > is and I think you will find that it's too high to deliver a sustained > power at a "payback" level. (Thunderstorm conditions excepted!) > > This seems like a very easy experiment to kill yourself with - all > you need is an aluminum foil kite with a conducting string. The > capacitor should charge to a voltage such that the corona discharge > from the kite is in equilibrium with the local air potential at test > altitude. > > My little book, "All About Lightning" by Martin A. Uman says that > the voltage between the earth and the "electrosphere" (atmosphere > from 30 to 40 miles altitude) in "fine weather" is about 300,000 > volts. That should charge a capacitor very well! Again, we have the > impedance problem to limit current flow. Hmmm, an aluminized mylar > balloon should do the trick (if we could get it to 30 miles!). > > I am not aware of any > > >> attempts to verify it experimentally. > > Well, it's pretty easy to try with a kite and music wire - BUT DO NOT > ATTEMPT THIS UNLESS YOU ARE A TRAINED HIGH-VOLTAGE PHYSICIST. (In > attitude as well as profession! :-) > > Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 15:07:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26160; Fri, 25 May 2001 15:06:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:06:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0ED506.70715CE9@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:56:22 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for May 25, 2001] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NI_Ww3.0.eO6.QTj3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42827 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for May 25, 2001 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:16:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "What's New" To: aki@ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 25 May 01 Washington, DC 1. SENATE: FREE AGENT SWITCHES SIDES. Nothing else George W. did as Texas' governor generated as much criticism as he got as owner of the Dallas Rangers when he let Sammy Sosa be traded. Now it's happened again. Senator James Jeffords became a free agent with his reelection last fall, and this week he got a better offer from another team. Jeffords, who opposes Bush's environmental policies, will chair the Environment and Public Works Committee. And Washington could become a very different town. 2. CELL PHONES AND CANCER: SO WHAT DOES THE GAO KNOW? In an orgy of budget cutting, Congress abolished its Office of Technology Assessment in 1995 (WN 29 Sep 95). So where does Congress go to get answers to technical questions? Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-CN) and Rep. Edward Markey (D-MA) turned to the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress, for a report on possible health risks associated with cell phone use. In its report, released on Tuesday, the GAO finds no evidence of adverse health effects, BUT they conclude there is not yet enough data to conclude cell phones pose no risk at all. Of course not! And there never will be. You can't prove anything is risk free. A problem may yet show up only at higher exposure, or after longer incubation, or when cell phone radiation is combined with caffeine, or.... Physicists ask to see a plausible mechanism. 3. PLACEBO EFFECT: IT WON'T SHRINK TUMORS OR CURE BALDNESS. A Danish study challenges the widely accepted claim that just about any disorder that afflicts people will show a positive response to a sham treatment. This so-called "placebo effect" has been widely hailed by proponents of mind-body medicine as evidence of the mind's power to heal. It's more likely to be evidence of self-deception. For any disorder that could be measured, such as excess weight, the Danish study found the use of a placebo to be no more effective than no treatment at all. The placebo myth may result from a reduction in stress hormones in people who are convinced the treatment will work. Stress hormones can make you feel lousy. The release of the Danish study comes as the sale of herbal medications is falling, following several negative trials. 4. SPACE STATION: SUPPOSE THEY'LL HAVE A TUPERWARE PARTY ON ISS? Even as NASA is trying to deal with the frivolous image of the International Space Station left by space-tourist Dennis Tito, Pizza Hut reportedly paid Russia's space agency $1M to deliver a six-inch cheese and salami pizza to the orbiting boondoggle. The delivery reportedly cost Pizza Hut $1M. At that rate, maybe NASA should hire Pizza Hut to supply everything to the station. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 15:07:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26323; Fri, 25 May 2001 15:06:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:06:50 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010525172729.02961870@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:06:33 -0400 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The useful discussion has begun. In-Reply-To: <000901c0e4bd$8d6c22c0$98e13604@hppav> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010523103830.00a82ef0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010524093823.029237a8@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"lo6LJ2.0.CR6.wTj3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42829 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jeff Kooistra wrote: >OK, but I want to go beyond this to more specific issues involving a >demonstration of the device the inventor has built or, more often, hopes to >build with adequate funding. . . . The specifics would depend on the device. The general principles of marketing apply to all goods and services. Mistakes such as alienating or boring your customer must be avoided in all cases, but the specifics vary. You sell kitty litter to customers who have cats, and underwear . . . with a different kind of advertisement, anyway. I think your first target customers for an o-u machine would be kind of engineers who bought the early home computers. They are an easy sell! They are the most cooperative and forgiving customers imaginable. >No real disagreement there, but as you know, most inventors don't come in >with anything like a "product" ready to be marketed. Some may come in >with a fairly detailed idea about what they want to build, but have lacked >the money to build it. Others may have been able to scrape together >enough cash to do some experiments which lead them believe they could >build their exotic device, but lack the money or time . . . They face the same predicament as the CF scientists. Alas, I have no answer for them. If I had one, I would have sold gadgets made by Mizuno or Storms years ago. Does anyone out there want a $10,000 experiment that produces 0.3 watts excess heat? Works nearly every time? Contact Ed or me, and we'll set you up with on. My comments were about products that various people claim they have, which supposedly produce 5 to 100 watts heat or electricity reliably, with little or no background input. These people complain they cannot get funded. I tell them they should market the product in various ways that will quickly bring in pots of money and solve their problems with the Patent Office, the courts and the APS. They become very upset with me. I gave up talking with them years ago. I won't mention names, except Correa, who does not monitor this channel. He attacked me in a formal presentation. Fortunately for him it was not recorded. There were a few investors and businessmen there, who were even more appalled than I was. At least I knew what was coming. Frankly, I do not believe these claims anymore. I cannot imagine anyone who so smart he could invent something like that, but so stupid he would sit on it and starve to death, when he could make millions overnight. >Now, what was it you >saw from these scientists (by way of their scientific ideas, and/or >experiments, and/or devices, and/or scientific training) that led you to be >willing to give assistance? How did you evaluate their ideas, experiments, >etc. since you are not yourself a scientist? > Which criteria were important to you? Well, if we were talking about evaluating DNA therapy, or advanced light water fission reactors I would be incapable of evaluating their ideas. But in this field, any fool can make the determination. A half-literate auto mechanic can tell you exactly what criteria are important, and how to measure them: Power out minus power in, and the dollar cost of the gadget Nothing else matters. We are talking energy here. When the price is right, you can find a market for energy in any amount, at any power level, from milliwatts to megawatts. If you can make it, somebody out there wants to buy it. If Ed and I could figure out how to make his 0.3 watts for whole lot less than $10,000, we could probably sell that too. $1,000 or $2,000 would do it. With an anti-gravity machine, you put it on a scale and crank it up. If it works, you are in business. Now if the guy comes to me with a THEORY about CF or some other o-u effect, I can't judge, and I cannot help. >Does it have to be an already viable gadget? Yup. > What if the inventor hasn't >had enough money to make a viable gadget? He is out of luck. > What sort of presentation would >he HAVE to make to you to get you to think he could indeed be successful >in building his gadget? I guess he would have to win over the APS, which is probably impossible. Who else pays for theories? I wouldn't know. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 15:07:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26292; Fri, 25 May 2001 15:06:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:06:43 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010525171633.0293e1f8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:26:52 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010525100850.028d89e8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010525100850.028d89e8@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"jPvVz2.0.aQ6.nTj3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42828 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >. . . In addition to the possibility that Mr. X is liar, consider this. If >the invisible government, the IG, is sending it's goon squads to stop him, >what chance would any investor or organization have of successfully >marketing the product? I hadn't thought of that. You are right, but it might be fun to try to devise a scheme to beat the goon squads. You need an elaborate plan in which 100 prototypes are manufactured secretly, out of sight of the IG, and placed in cities all around the world for a coordinated, simultaneous mass unveiling. It would make a good SF story! For that matter, what don't the goons come this afternoon and take away this "latest model." Why do they let him build anything, ever? Surely they have wiretaps and cameras. They must see him going to Radio Shack for another load of supplies. If he can build one "latest model" prototype, there must be a way to outwit them and build a hundred. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 15:52:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA10364; Fri, 25 May 2001 15:51:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:51:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0EE1C8.492FB007@suite224.net> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:50:48 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla References: <004001c0e53f$79169f80$e5181ad8@oemcomputer> <3B0EBEDA.2FB5E98@suite224.net> <026f01c0e55b$18f57ce0$9731b43f@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pTQSO2.0.rX2.K7k3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42830 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Fred Sparber wrote: > > Got a tin roof on your barn, Frank? Lottsa square feet and insulated from ground? > :-) Dog gone, Fred, there you go with another easy experiment for me to run! Let see, close to 1000 ft^2 of area, about 3 meters from the ground. Maybe I'll wait for some dry weather and hook my DMM from the roof to a grounding rod. OK, should we start a contest as to what voltage my meter will indicate? It has a 10 megohm input impedance, and I have some real good small 12 kvolt capacitors. OK, I guess I should measure the resistance of the wood structure from roof to ground first? Now how do I do that? With the earth voltage present, my DMM might not like it on the resistance scale. Maybe I should hook a 12 volt battery from roof to ground and measure the resulting current? Hey, I thought this was going to be a simple experiment...! Jed wrote: "King George III, who was an accomplished amateur scientist, disagreed with Franklin regarding the optimum shape of a lighting rod. He thought they should be rounded at the top. Franklin said they be pointed. Recent research shows that His Majesty was right." Frank wonders: Hmmm, with my round head, does that mean I should avoid running around on top of my barn - or, do it at every oportunity??? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 16:26:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA20484; Fri, 25 May 2001 16:25:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:25:44 -0700 Message-ID: <029601c0e569$57878580$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Egad! No More Martians? Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:23:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E53F.67B09520" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"AZGJQ2.0.-_4.tdk3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42831 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E53F.67B09520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/25/mars.faces/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E53F.67B09520 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN.com - Mars loses face, gains nature trail - May 25, 2001.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN.com - Mars loses face, gains nature trail - May 25, 2001.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/25/mars.faces/index.html [DOC#35] BASEURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html ORIGURL=http://toolbar.netscape.com/tw_hat/iframe/cnn.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/25/mars.faces/index.html Modified=A0E47F0869E5C0011A ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0E53F.67B09520-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 18:37:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA24180; Fri, 25 May 2001 18:36:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:36:36 -0700 Message-ID: <02c401c0e57b$9ef57b40$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: <004001c0e53f$79169f80$e5181ad8@oemcomputer> <3B0EBEDA.2FB5E98@suite224.net> <026f01c0e55b$18f57ce0$9731b43f@computer> <3B0EE1C8.492FB007@suite224.net> Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 19:33:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"dXLwy1.0.ev5.ZYm3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42832 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francis J. Stenger" To: Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 5:50 PM Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla See what I mean,George? :-) Frank Stenger wrote: > > Fred Sparber wrote: > > > > Got a tin roof on your barn, Frank? Lottsa square feet and insulated from ground? > > :-) > > Dog gone, Fred, there you go with another easy experiment for me to > run! Let see, close to 1000 ft^2 of area, about 3 meters from the > ground. What's your barn's capacity in Farads, Frank? >Maybe I'll wait for some dry weather and hook my DMM from > the roof to a grounding rod. OK, should we start a contest as to > what voltage my meter will indicate? It has a 10 megohm input > impedance, and I have some real good small 12 kvolt capacitors. There you go. Ready made for Tesla's Energy Extractor, that is to say if it it burns down with you Super A in it, equal Ex-tractor. > > OK, I guess I should measure the resistance of the wood structure > from roof to ground first? Reciprocal rho is conductance. >Now how do I do that? With the earth > voltage present, my DMM might not like it on the resistance scale. > Maybe I should hook a 12 volt battery from roof to ground and measure > the resulting current? On a clear dry day would be best. > Hey, I thought this was going to be a simple > experiment...! > > Jed wrote: > > "King George III, who was an accomplished amateur scientist, disagreed > with > Franklin regarding the optimum shape of a lighting rod. He thought they > should be rounded at the top. Franklin said they be pointed. Recent > research shows that His Majesty was right." > > Frank wonders: > > Hmmm, with my round head, does that mean I should avoid running around > on top of my barn - or, do it at every oportunity??? You want Ball Lighning? Wear crepe-soled shoes or you might get Ball Lightning, where you don't want it. :-) Best, Fred > > Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 19:04:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA00332; Fri, 25 May 2001 19:02:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 19:02:57 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Egad! No More Martians? Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:06:40 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" References: <029601c0e569$57878580$9731b43f@computer> In-Reply-To: <029601c0e569$57878580$9731b43f@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052522064000.01201@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA00308 Resent-Message-ID: <"Gla-13.0.65.Hxm3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42833 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On Friday 25 May 2001 15:23, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/25/mars.faces/index.html > ---------------------------------------- Content-Type: application/octet-stream; charset="iso-8859-1"; name="CNN.com - Mars loses face, gains nature trail - May 25, 2001.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: ---------------------------------------- Looks like the government is revving up a disinformation campaign. Another web site referred to in another post in this group mentioned a NASA trick to process the new image to 'flatten' and distort the image in order to conceal its true appearance. No matter, NASA has not the power to conceal a truth this big for long. Somebody with good technology and a possible ax to grind will pick a good time and place to educate us to the truth in their own brutal way. That is how American and Allied soldiers were brainwashed in Viet-Nam and Korea. You see, our government lies to us. It has lied in the past about our history; And in particular about certain figures involved in government and commerce. Point is, when captured, our POW's were told the truth about all the things that they had be lied to about for years by our government. This broke the faith that they had in being American. It broke it by showing that they had been used and cynically manipulated by a soul-less oligarchy bent on only one goal, self enrichment for a chosen few. But then, what would be wrong in admitting that there might just BE an artificial structure on the planet. Monoliths of similar size are not unknown on our own planet. They are usually constructed by aborigines of one type or another for religious purposes or burials. Not much technology there. Why try to cover it up? I am not sure that I really want to know the answer; but there must be an answer! It would certainly be very old. Its existance would be evidence of an old civilization of fantastic age. Such a civilization could have had time to advance itself quite highly. If that is above ground, then as conditions worsened on their home, could they have gone underground? Could they have survived? Whether or not they survived, would they or could they have left some artifacts of their existance? Maybe some technological artifacts? Lying to we Americans by putting out disinformation is easy and cheap. Since so many of us are apathetic sheep, it is literally without cost. But we Americans have no recourse. We can raise our small and tiny voices on the internet, but eventually even this expression will be lumped together with 'pornography' and legislated out of existance. The Russians and Chinese will not be fooled, however. They, I am absolutely sure, have seen these pictures too. They know exactly what we are doing; they are past masters at deluding their own populations. They know an opportunity for cheap advancement and victory in wars on earth may lay in a quick and successful trip to Mars to recover this technology, if it exists. A disinformation campaign by fools in our domestic propaganda ministries will only serve to convince them that we are hiding something there on Mars. It will only make them redouble their efforts to find it themselves. Far better that our government did something new and different and told the truth, but it does not seem to know how. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 19:13:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA03091; Fri, 25 May 2001 19:12:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 19:12:06 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010525211251.01d3c120@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:14:29 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Egad! No More Martians? In-Reply-To: <01052522064000.01201@linux> References: <029601c0e569$57878580$9731b43f@computer> <029601c0e569$57878580$9731b43f@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"1LvZ63.0.5m.s3n3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42834 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com At 10:06 PM 5/25/01 -0700, you wrote: >On Friday 25 May 2001 15:23, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/25/mars.faces/index.html > > Ah Hoagland will pull something out of this. Probably one of those grand ideas you get while contemplating suicide. :-) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 19:20:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA04323; Fri, 25 May 2001 19:18:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 19:18:09 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:23:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <02c401c0e57b$9ef57b40$9731b43f@computer> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"BZQqG.0.R31.X9n3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42835 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi All. Frank Writes: >Maybe I'll wait for some dry weather and hook my DMM from > the roof to a grounding rod. OK, should we start a contest as to > what voltage my meter will indicate? It has a 10 megohm input > impedance, and I have some real good small 12 kvolt capacitors. A good ground is essential. How did you prepare the grounding rod? Fred suggests measuring the dry leakage current but things are going to get interesting when it gets stormy, no doubt the barn will be more conductive. How's the weather now, dry or wet???? Windy? > Hey, I thought this was going to be a simple > experiment...! A shocking one! I did this experiment once with the roof of a automotive shop. The results were...interesting. The caps will come in handy, and I'd recommend a spark gap for protection and commutation. Check out field mill circuits. An old girlfriend of mine grew up in Kansas, she remembers when the weather was right you'd see St. Elmo's fire and plasma type effects. Describe the land and conditions around your barn, Frank. I'm trying to remember now where you're at. I always thought this tech would be a good adjunct to wind type systems, as the conditions are amenable for both. K. PS: Tesla discovered that business about the lightning rod shape, check out his patent. He makes the point that sticking a sharp pole up severely distorts the field pattern in that area and induces a strike. His lighting protectors would be placed at the sharp corners of the structure, thus smoothing the field lines and preventing a strike. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 19:41:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA09468; Fri, 25 May 2001 19:35:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 19:35:27 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:33:52 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Resent-Message-ID: <"NvRbA1.0.sJ2.kPn3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42836 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ***{I just noticed that you had your "reply-to" header set incorrectly, which diverted my reply away from vortex. Therefore, here it is again. --MJ}*** >Hi Mitch. > >So, are you saying that little energy is available >in electromagnetic form from the environment? Can >you please elaborate on why you think this? ***{Let's not drop the context. I was referring to the electrical energy that you could pick up by the expedient of sticking up an antenna in your yard. In that context, assuming you do not live in the beam of a big microwave relay antenna, you will be lucky to pick up enough electrical energy that way to heat a cup of coffee. Of course, solar insolation is 1360 watts per meter just above Earth's atmosphere, and over 900 at the surface, so that is non-trivial. However, most of it does not come in at RF frequencies. --MJ}*** >K. [snip] ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 19:53:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA14589; Fri, 25 May 2001 19:51:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 19:51:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0F1A39.3481A849@suite224.net> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:51:37 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Egad! No More Martians? References: <029601c0e569$57878580$9731b43f@computer> <01052522064000.01201@linux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ieTss.0.tZ3.3fn3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42837 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Standing Bear wrote: > > Looks like the government is revving up a disinformation campaign. ... > No matter, NASA has not the power to conceal a truth > this big for long... Hey, Standing Bear, you're quite wrong. As a NASA engineer retired after 24 years, all they'll let me say is - take away the first A in NASA and what's left?? Huh, Huh??? Need I say more? They only let me marry my wife because she worked at NASA too, so we were both under their thumb! When we had kids, we had to fit them with shock collars to numb them into automatic denial of any secrets they overheard around the house. As the years pass, I'm left with only a dim recollection of the fanatic way NASA wishes to suppress anything exciting they find in outer space so their budget will slowly fade away and all the project managers can take "early out" retirements as the attrition ax slowly eats away the agency and it vanishes into nothingness. BTW, my real name is Frank Stenger - what's yours, Standing Bear?? If you're a Native American, ignore the previous question! Francis (Frank) Stenger ----------- NASA, retired. PS: This is only a friendly "dig" - I don't ever want to come between a person and his religion... :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 20:28:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA22467; Fri, 25 May 2001 20:27:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 20:27:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0F228A.DAF887CE@suite224.net> Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 23:27:06 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: knagel@gis.net CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ur04G2.0.uU5.VAo3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42838 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Keith wrote: > > A good ground is essential. How did you prepare the grounding rod? Whoa, Keith, this experiment is still in the design stage! :-) My little barn is isolated on the highest point on my small farm here in NE Ohio, Keith. Now that I think of it, there is a 2-inch gas line about 4 ft under ground that runs about 20 feet in front of my barn. If I drive a metal rod in 4 ft deep near this gas line, I should have a very good ground. I've been waiting for a lightning strike to dig a hole to this line - so far, no luck! The gas line runs about a mile underground. > ... How's the weather > now, dry or wet???? Windy? Wet, damp, cool - a stationary low sitting over us for days and days. > I did this experiment once with the roof of a automotive > shop. The results were...interesting. > The caps will come in handy, and I'd recommend a spark > gap for protection and commutation. Check out > field mill circuits. > > An old girlfriend of mine grew up in Kansas, Just how old is she, Keith?? 18? 19? :-) she > remembers when the weather was right you'd see St. Elmo's > fire and plasma type effects. Describe the > land and conditions around your barn, Frank. > I'm trying to remember now where you're at. The barn is out in the open at one end of a 17 acre field - 200 ft to the nearest tree line. (Ashtabula County in the very NE corner of Ohio) About 5 miles from Lake Erie - 842 feet above sea level. > > I always thought this tech would be a good adjunct to > wind type systems, as the conditions are amenable for both. For me, free-energy means free gas from the lease well on our place. All I need is a natural-gas engine and I'm my own power plant. Which brings up an interesting point - "they're" going to run a seismic line down the middle of my farm - they want to set off 1/4 stick of dynamite in holes 50 ft apart across the 1800 ft depth of my place. When they do this, should I look for any anomalous physics on my own?? Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 20:45:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA27747; Fri, 25 May 2001 20:44:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 20:44:39 -0700 Message-ID: <02f401c0e58d$55e081e0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:40:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ctRJ3.0.Sn6.dQo3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42839 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 9:23 PM Subject: RE: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Keith wrote: > Hi All. > > Frank Writes: > >Maybe I'll wait for some dry weather and hook my DMM from > > the roof to a grounding rod. OK, should we start a contest as to > > what voltage my meter will indicate? It has a 10 megohm input > > impedance, and I have some real good small 12 kvolt capacitors. > > A good ground is essential. How did you prepare the grounding rod? Actually, if my theory that most Atmospheric and "Static" electricity is Light Leptons with charge the same as Electrons and Positrons and a Radius of ~ 0.5 angstroms or more, they can't flow through a conductor because they are too big. Rather they "flow" over the surface of conductors or good insulators. So Frank could use glass rods (or window panes) for a good ground. IOW, a DMM only measures electron flow, and the Real McCoy flows over the outside and covers the whole roof, that's probably why Tesla wanted an insulating layer (paint) over the metal. > > Fred suggests measuring the dry leakage current but > things are going to get interesting when it gets stormy, no doubt the barn will be more conductive. A crude electrometer made using aluminum foil might be better. >How's the weather > now, dry or wet???? Windy? At Frank's homestead, all of the above. :-) > > > Hey, I thought this was going to be a simple > > experiment...! > > A shocking one! > > I did this experiment once with the roof of a automotive > shop. The results were...interesting. Should be until, the LLs trigger a lightning strike and the mode becomes a mix of LLs and Electrons. Ben Franklin probably would be more in tune with LLs running up his trousers, but the "discovery" of the Regular Electrons confused the LL "Fluid" approach. > The caps will come in handy, and I'd recommend a spark > gap for protection and commutation. Check out > field mill circuits. > > An old girlfriend of mine grew up in Kansas, she > remembers when the weather was right you'd see St. Elmo's > fire and plasma type effects. Describe the > land and conditions around your barn, Frank. > I'm trying to remember now where you're at. I like this. > > I always thought this tech would be a good adjunct to > wind type systems, as the conditions are amenable for both. LLs are good for the catalysis of Hot & Cold Fusion and Hydrinos, too. Regards, Frederick > > K. > > PS: Tesla discovered that business about the lightning rod > shape, check out his patent. He makes the point that sticking > a sharp pole up severely distorts the field pattern in > that area and induces a strike. His lighting protectors > would be placed at the sharp corners of the structure, thus > smoothing the field lines and preventing a strike. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 21:55:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA15924; Fri, 25 May 2001 21:54:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:54:27 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Francis J. Stenger" Cc: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 01:00:08 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3B0F228A.DAF887CE@suite224.net> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"mnOoG2.0.ku3.3Sp3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42840 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi. Yes, that gas line sounds excellent. It's a pity you can't tie right on to it, but just getting near it would do fine (smile). Just not too near... We're supposed to get t-storms over the weekend here. I've got a large piece of steel mesh I may consider "flying". Tie on to the center of the mesh and to the water pipe. I wonder what I'll see with such a small setup???? I live in a brownstone, by the ocean. Poor conditions here for this experiment. Frank writes: >Just how old is she, Keith?? 18? 19? :-) You old lech (smile). She was a charmer, and could charge my batteries (for awhile). Love is the only free energy there is. K. -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger [mailto:fstenger@suite224.net] Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 11:27 PM To: knagel@gis.net Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Keith wrote: > > A good ground is essential. How did you prepare the grounding rod? Whoa, Keith, this experiment is still in the design stage! :-) My little barn is isolated on the highest point on my small farm here in NE Ohio, Keith. Now that I think of it, there is a 2-inch gas line about 4 ft under ground that runs about 20 feet in front of my barn. If I drive a metal rod in 4 ft deep near this gas line, I should have a very good ground. I've been waiting for a lightning strike to dig a hole to this line - so far, no luck! The gas line runs about a mile underground. > ... How's the weather > now, dry or wet???? Windy? Wet, damp, cool - a stationary low sitting over us for days and days. > I did this experiment once with the roof of a automotive > shop. The results were...interesting. > The caps will come in handy, and I'd recommend a spark > gap for protection and commutation. Check out > field mill circuits. > > An old girlfriend of mine grew up in Kansas, Just how old is she, Keith?? 18? 19? :-) she > remembers when the weather was right you'd see St. Elmo's > fire and plasma type effects. Describe the > land and conditions around your barn, Frank. > I'm trying to remember now where you're at. The barn is out in the open at one end of a 17 acre field - 200 ft to the nearest tree line. (Ashtabula County in the very NE corner of Ohio) About 5 miles from Lake Erie - 842 feet above sea level. > > I always thought this tech would be a good adjunct to > wind type systems, as the conditions are amenable for both. For me, free-energy means free gas from the lease well on our place. All I need is a natural-gas engine and I'm my own power plant. Which brings up an interesting point - "they're" going to run a seismic line down the middle of my farm - they want to set off 1/4 stick of dynamite in holes 50 ft apart across the 1800 ft depth of my place. When they do this, should I look for any anomalous physics on my own?? Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 22:31:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA27477; Fri, 25 May 2001 22:30:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:30:47 -0700 Message-ID: <031d01c0e59c$579ade40$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 23:28:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"yd0lH1.0.Fj6.6-p3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42841 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Keith, Frank: Going by Tesla's 1901 patent as posted by "Anonymous" the tin roof needs an insulating layer/paint on top. The 170 volt/meter "Fair Weather Field" positive wrt ground would make the roof about 600 volts electrostatically positive so that it can collect negative ions which could be O2- or H2O- where the negative charge is a negative Light Lepton of ~ 1.0 angstrom diameter (Atmospheric Static Electricity)satisfying the "Electron Affinity" of H2O or O2 to create the "small ions" that run about 5.0E8/meter^3 in air and many adsorbed in groundwater or on soil. These will collect on the insulated surface, in effect making the tin roof an electrostatic capacitor. Tying this capacitor to Earth Ground through a suitable capacitor bank will let conduction electrons (~ 6.0E-5 angstroms diameter) charge the capacitor bank, which is "periodically discharged through a load" at a rate depending on availability of LLs (negative) in the atmosphere. Since the Sun produced the LL pairs (the positive ones are predominantly trapped in the upper atmosphere thus the 300,000 volt positive potential wrt the surface) and the negative ones are attached to H2O and O2 and brought to the surface as rain and/or other weather effects, making this a Solar/Gravity driven energy source. OTOH, with a good wind off Lake Erie, Frank might be able to 24 kW-hr/day off the roof of the barn. Then he could sell that free gas from the lease well at $1.00/therm. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 22:53:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA31771; Fri, 25 May 2001 22:50:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:50:15 -0700 Message-ID: <032d01c0e59f$0f5a22a0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: <031d01c0e59c$579ade40$9731b43f@computer> Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 23:47:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"bYRnp2.0.Gm7.MGq3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42842 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 11:28 PM Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla OTOH, "Static Electricity" is Free Electrons blown off the Sun into the Earth's Atmosphere over the last 4.5 Billion Years. In which case the game is the same. Regards, Frederick > Hi Keith, Frank: > Going by Tesla's 1901 patent as posted by "Anonymous" > the tin roof needs an insulating layer/paint on top. The 170 volt/meter "Fair Weather > Field" positive wrt ground would > make the roof about 600 volts electrostatically positive so that it can collect > negative ions which could be O2- or H2O- where the negative charge is a negative Light > Lepton of ~ 1.0 angstrom diameter (Atmospheric Static Electricity)satisfying the > "Electron Affinity" of H2O or O2 > to create the "small ions" that run about 5.0E8/meter^3 > in air and many adsorbed in groundwater or on soil. > > These will collect on the insulated surface, in effect making the tin roof an > electrostatic capacitor. Tying this capacitor to Earth Ground through a suitable > capacitor bank will > let conduction electrons (~ 6.0E-5 angstroms diameter) > charge the capacitor bank, which is "periodically discharged through a load" at a rate > depending on availability of LLs (negative) in the atmosphere. > > Since the Sun produced the LL pairs (the positive ones are predominantly trapped in > the upper atmosphere thus the 300,000 volt positive potential wrt the surface) and the > negative ones are attached to H2O and O2 and brought to the surface as rain and/or > other weather effects, making this a Solar/Gravity driven energy source. > > OTOH, with a good wind off Lake Erie, Frank might be able to 24 kW-hr/day off the roof > of the barn. Then he could sell that free gas from the lease well at $1.00/therm. > > Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 25 23:07:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA02341; Fri, 25 May 2001 23:06:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 23:06:24 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 01:06:44 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Quantum Vacuum Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"D0lhW3.0.Va.WVq3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42843 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Can anyone give me a definition of quantum vacuum? Having read Tom Bearden's papers, I've developed this explanation of the workings of his circuit. He has a method of generation magnetic monopoles which act as antenna which pull the energy out of the Aether into them selves and then release it into the circuit.Does anyone else agree that this is a correct explanation of what he has to say? Then there is Whittaker's mathematics. According to Bearden, the scalar currents are defined by some of the quaternions. Since the quaternion mathematics are difficult and the scalars are not necessary to conventional electrical engineering, they were deleted when Maxwell's equations were rewritten by Heavyside and Gibbs. So, if this is correct, how could someone take advantage of this, that is do with atoms what Bearden has done with electromagnetism? That is assuming that Bearden has done anything with electromagnetism. If someone could do this, what might quantum vacuum have to do with it? Bearden told me that his circuit is capable of heating water. However, has anyone seen his circuit heat water? Now for some reason, the electricity generated by this circuit is incapable of powering the circuit. Well Otto Schmitt said that there were several kinds of electricity. But that's a different thread. Let's hope that the IG doesn't send any black helicopters to take him away. They would have to send a big helicopter to haul Tom! To be contiued... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 00:59:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA23743; Sat, 26 May 2001 00:58:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 00:58:41 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 04:05:12 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: Vortex , Frederick Sparber Subject: Careful .ASK A HAM.. The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla In-Reply-To: <02f401c0e58d$55e081e0$9731b43f@computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"P7MzC3.0.qo5.n8s3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42844 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com n ASK A HAM RADIO OPERATOR WHAT HAPPENS WITH OPEN ANTENNAS ASK A LINEMAN ABOUT OPEN HIGH WIRES Please use due care in all aspects of this experiment Set up: Spark Gap Ground path switch HV Indicator CAUTION: USE INSULATED POLES OR STICKS TO PUT THINGS IN AND OUT OF CIRCUIT FIBERGLASS OK WOOD ONLY IF DRY AND CLEAR VARNISH SOME PIGMENTED PAINTS AND LACQUERS ARE FAIR CONDUCTORS TRY FLUORESCENT LAMP AND NEON LAMP BEFORE YOU BURN OUT YOU OR YOUR METER ASK A HAM WHAT HAPPENS TO OPEN ANTENNAS On Fri, 25 May 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keith Nagel" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 9:23 PM > Subject: RE: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla > > Keith wrote: > > > > Hi All. > > > > Frank Writes: > > >Maybe I'll wait for some dry weather and hook my DMM from > > > the roof to a grounding rod. OK, should we start a contest as to > > > what voltage my meter will indicate? It has a 10 megohm input > > > impedance, and I have some real good small 12 kvolt capacitors. > > > > A good ground is essential. How did you prepare the grounding rod? > > Actually, if my theory that most Atmospheric and "Static" electricity is Light Leptons > with charge the same as Electrons and Positrons and a Radius of ~ 0.5 angstroms or > more, they can't flow through a conductor because they are too big. Rather they "flow" > over the surface of > conductors or good insulators. So Frank could use glass rods (or window panes) for a > good ground. > > IOW, a DMM only measures electron flow, and the Real McCoy flows over the outside and > covers the whole roof, that's probably why Tesla wanted an insulating layer (paint) > over the metal. > > > > Fred suggests measuring the dry leakage current but > > things are going to get interesting when it gets stormy, no doubt the barn will be > more conductive. > > A crude electrometer made using aluminum foil might be better. > >How's the weather > > now, dry or wet???? Windy? > > At Frank's homestead, all of the above. :-) > > > > > Hey, I thought this was going to be a simple > > > experiment...! > > > > A shocking one! > > > > I did this experiment once with the roof of a automotive > > shop. The results were...interesting. > > Should be until, the LLs trigger a lightning strike and the mode becomes a mix of LLs > and Electrons. > > Ben Franklin probably would be more in tune with LLs running up his trousers, but the > "discovery" of the Regular Electrons confused the LL "Fluid" approach. > > The caps will come in handy, and I'd recommend a spark > > gap for protection and commutation. Check out > > field mill circuits. > > > > An old girlfriend of mine grew up in Kansas, she > > remembers when the weather was right you'd see St. Elmo's > > fire and plasma type effects. Describe the > > land and conditions around your barn, Frank. > > I'm trying to remember now where you're at. > > I like this. > > > > I always thought this tech would be a good adjunct to > > wind type systems, as the conditions are amenable for both. > > LLs are good for the catalysis of Hot & Cold Fusion and Hydrinos, too. > > Regards, Frederick > > > > K. > > > > PS: Tesla discovered that business about the lightning rod > > shape, check out his patent. He makes the point that sticking > > a sharp pole up severely distorts the field pattern in > > that area and induces a strike. His lighting protectors > > would be placed at the sharp corners of the structure, thus > > smoothing the field lines and preventing a strike. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 01:09:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA25859; Sat, 26 May 2001 01:08:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 01:08:34 -0700 Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 04:15:02 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Keith Nagel cc: "Francis J. Stenger" , Vortex Subject: RE: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"kTycs3.0.zJ6.1Is3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42845 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Frank When they want to run seismic... YOU want to make sure you have full mineral claim fisrt! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 02:19:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA04434; Sat, 26 May 2001 02:18:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 02:18:48 -0700 Message-ID: <036301c0e5bc$332a5ac0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: , "John Schnurer" References: Subject: Re: Careful .ASK A HAM.. The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 03:16:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"5uY5b1.0.C51.uJt3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42846 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schnurer" To: "Vortex" ; "Frederick Sparber" Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 3:05 AM Subject: Careful .ASK A HAM.. The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Why should I ASK A HAM, John? I built my first radio at age 14, while taking a home study course. Then 8 months of intensive training in the U.S. Army Signal Corps, at Fort Monmouth N.J. (Korean War,and 2 more years) followed by operating and maintaining high power communications equipment with antennas 80 ft in the air and 1,000 ft long (Rhombics) Then High Power RADAR operation and maintenance . Followed by college and TV broadcast station operation to pay the rent. OTOH, don't sell a good HAM short. AND STOP CHANGING THE DAMN SUBJECT LINE! PUT YOUR COMMENTS IN THE TEXT! Regards, Frederick > n > ASK A HAM RADIO OPERATOR WHAT HAPPENS WITH OPEN ANTENNAS > > ASK A LINEMAN ABOUT OPEN HIGH WIRES > > > Please use due care in all aspects of this experiment > > Set up: > > Spark Gap > > Ground path > switch > > HV Indicator > > > CAUTION: > > USE INSULATED POLES OR STICKS TO PUT THINGS IN AND OUT OF CIRCUIT > FIBERGLASS OK > > WOOD ONLY IF DRY AND CLEAR VARNISH > > SOME PIGMENTED PAINTS AND LACQUERS ARE FAIR CONDUCTORS > > TRY FLUORESCENT LAMP AND NEON LAMP > > BEFORE > > YOU BURN OUT YOU OR YOUR METER > > ASK A HAM WHAT HAPPENS TO OPEN ANTENNAS > > On Fri, 25 May 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Keith Nagel" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 9:23 PM > > Subject: RE: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla > > > > Keith wrote: > > > > > > > Hi All. > > > > > > Frank Writes: > > > >Maybe I'll wait for some dry weather and hook my DMM from > > > > the roof to a grounding rod. OK, should we start a contest as to > > > > what voltage my meter will indicate? It has a 10 megohm input > > > > impedance, and I have some real good small 12 kvolt capacitors. > > > > > > A good ground is essential. How did you prepare the grounding rod? > > > > Actually, if my theory that most Atmospheric and "Static" electricity is Light Leptons > > with charge the same as Electrons and Positrons and a Radius of ~ 0.5 angstroms or > > more, they can't flow through a conductor because they are too big. Rather they "flow" > > over the surface of > > conductors or good insulators. So Frank could use glass rods (or window panes) for a > > good ground. > > > > IOW, a DMM only measures electron flow, and the Real McCoy flows over the outside and > > covers the whole roof, that's probably why Tesla wanted an insulating layer (paint) > > over the metal. > > > > > > Fred suggests measuring the dry leakage current but > > > things are going to get interesting when it gets stormy, no doubt the barn will be > > more conductive. > > > > A crude electrometer made using aluminum foil might be better. > > >How's the weather > > > now, dry or wet???? Windy? > > > > At Frank's homestead, all of the above. :-) > > > > > > > Hey, I thought this was going to be a simple > > > > experiment...! > > > > > > A shocking one! > > > > > > I did this experiment once with the roof of a automotive > > > shop. The results were...interesting. > > > > Should be until, the LLs trigger a lightning strike and the mode becomes a mix of LLs > > and Electrons. > > > > Ben Franklin probably would be more in tune with LLs running up his trousers, but the > > "discovery" of the Regular Electrons confused the LL "Fluid" approach. > > > The caps will come in handy, and I'd recommend a spark > > > gap for protection and commutation. Check out > > > field mill circuits. > > > > > > An old girlfriend of mine grew up in Kansas, she > > > remembers when the weather was right you'd see St. Elmo's > > > fire and plasma type effects. Describe the > > > land and conditions around your barn, Frank. > > > I'm trying to remember now where you're at. > > > > I like this. > > > > > > I always thought this tech would be a good adjunct to > > > wind type systems, as the conditions are amenable for both. > > > > LLs are good for the catalysis of Hot & Cold Fusion and Hydrinos, too. > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > K. > > > > > > PS: Tesla discovered that business about the lightning rod > > > shape, check out his patent. He makes the point that sticking > > > a sharp pole up severely distorts the field pattern in > > > that area and induces a strike. His lighting protectors > > > would be placed at the sharp corners of the structure, thus > > > smoothing the field lines and preventing a strike. > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 02:45:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA10780; Sat, 26 May 2001 02:44:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 02:44:09 -0700 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Egad! No More Martians? Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 09:44:11 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3b117abc.28796061@mail.midiowa.net> References: <029601c0e569$57878580$9731b43f@computer> <029601c0e569$57878580$9731b43f@computer> <4.2.0.58.20010525211251.01d3c120@postoffice.swbell.net> In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010525211251.01d3c120@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id CAA10760 Resent-Message-ID: <"tgYXX3.0.Me2.eht3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42847 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On Fri, 25 May 2001 21:14:29 -0500, Charles Ford wrote: >At 10:06 PM 5/25/01 -0700, you wrote: >>On Friday 25 May 2001 15:23, Frederick Sparber wrote: >> > >> > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/25/mars.faces/index.html >> > >Ah Hoagland will pull something out of this. Probably one of those grand >ideas you get while contemplating suicide. :-) Hoagland pulled something out of it 10 years ago. (Read his book) -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 03:26:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA15914; Sat, 26 May 2001 03:19:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 03:19:03 -0700 Message-ID: <037201c0e5c4$9c746b80$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <029601c0e569$57878580$9731b43f@computer> <029601c0e569$57878580$9731b43f@computer> <4.2.0.58.20010525211251.01d3c120@postoffice.swbell.net> <3b117abc.28796061@mail.midiowa.net> Subject: Re: Egad! No More Martians? Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 04:16:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"mrJ0w.0.Wu3.NCu3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42848 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean T. Miller" To: Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 4:44 AM Subject: Re: Egad! No More Martians? Dean (QSY) T. Miller wrote: > On Fri, 25 May 2001 21:14:29 -0500, Charles Ford > wrote: > > >At 10:06 PM 5/25/01 -0700, you wrote: > >>On Friday 25 May 2001 15:23, Frederick Sparber wrote: > >> > > >> > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/25/mars.faces/index.html > >> > > >Ah Hoagland will pull something out of this. Probably one of those grand > >ideas you get while contemplating suicide. :-) > > Hoagland pulled something out of it 10 years ago. (Read his book) Ah Hah! Books mean $$$ from those who hate the truth. :-) Regards, Frederick > > -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 05:04:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA31273; Sat, 26 May 2001 05:03:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 05:03:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0F9B91.4203898B@suite224.net> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 08:03:29 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Seismic survey - John Schnurer References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SWblN3.0.Ze7.Rkv3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42849 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com John Schnurer wrote: > > Frank > > When they want to run seismic... YOU want to make sure you have > full mineral claim fisrt! Too late, John, I think... I am already under an oil and gas lease for 1/8 share of one well's output. The companies can sell these leases without my input. The new survey is looking for deep gas - much deeper than the 3200 feet of the present well. If they find deep deposits, my share and my free gas will probably continue for a longer time. And No, I don't drive a Caddie - we may get $50 a month - but the free gas is nice! Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 06:08:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA07251; Sat, 26 May 2001 06:07:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 06:07:23 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0FAA81.B7760C28@suite224.net> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 09:07:13 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla References: <031d01c0e59c$579ade40$9731b43f@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ft4-P.0.Bn1.Agw3x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42850 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Frederick wrote: > (snip) > These will collect on the insulated surface, in effect making the tin roof an > electrostatic capacitor. Tying this capacitor to Earth Ground through a suitable > capacitor bank will > let conduction electrons (~ 6.0E-5 angstroms diameter) > charge the capacitor bank, which is "periodically discharged through a load" at a rate > depending on availability of LLs (negative) in the atmosphere. OK, is this the circuit?? - - - - - - - - - - <---- negative "air" chgs. //////////////////// <---- insulation ____________________ <---- metal roof + + + + + + + + + + <---- pos chgs from gnd. | thru cap with sw | open. | | <----- wire | | switch |____________/__________ | | | | | | ___|___ X C_s capacitor--> _______ X Load | X ^ pos chg flow X | | |_______________________| | | V /////////////// Ground Now, with the switch open, it would seem that we have two capacitors in series. The negative air ions form the "air" plate of the roof capacitor. The metal of the roof gets a load of positive charges from the top plate of the storage capacitor (C_s). This makes the top plate of C_s negative WRT ground. When we close the switch, pos charge flows thru the load and, finally, brings the top plate of C_s and the metal roof to ground potential. This charge STAYS on the roof because of the insulated area? So, when we open the switch again, why should more charge flow on the plates of C_s when both sides of it are at ground potential?? It still seems to me that what we want to do is to move positive charges from the roof to the air so we can continue to make the upper plate of C_s negative WRT ground when the switch is open. Why does it seem to me that we are better off without the insulation on the roof??? Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 12:23:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24338; Sat, 26 May 2001 12:22:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:22:12 -0700 Message-ID: <001201c0e60e$99646cc0$49181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:06:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"dYDSb3.0.Cy5.a904x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42851 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Let me say this; because I don't know all the details of his raids as well as what exactly has been confiscated and if I did know all the details I surely would not reveal all of it to this discussion group, because it might interfere any funding operations.. I have to go through a 3rd party to communicate with him as all his mail is being consficated and only fedex packages are getting through. I have met inventor X 5 years ago and perhaps will meet him again to get more details.He has many demonstratable kinds of OU devices, relating to Hendershot, Keely, Gray and others and been able to make them all work. Perhaps he or his agent is considering taking one of his units to Eric's test garage. Work is proceeding to get some more funding from hopefully some foreign investor. A inventor with similar Tesla technology that has moved to a Island country in the Pacific and wants 10 million for the rights to the technology. So it is a significant amout of money they are looking for, and also protection of the Govt. in the countries they would be introducing the technology. The one inventor already has foreign Govt. Protection. The only reason I am even mentioning about the technology to this group is perhaps to get some feedback on perhaps methods of getting this technology to the masses before the planet expires. We all realize centralized power production and distribution is at its limits without massive funding, and now that Bush and Cheny have had their wings clipped a little, this technology might have a better chance to come forward.. I will have a lot information about these technologies and marketing suggestions in our next issue, which should be out in a couple of weeks.It is called our Inside Edition and any one on this list who wants to recieve a complimentary copy, send me your snail mail address. 3 years ago we did a special on Dr. Storms. 2 years ago we did a special on Rory Johnson's fusion magnetic motor, and a year ago we did a review of Blacklight Power. Again this year we will focus on space, vibratory energies=. Keely, Hendershot, Gray, Adams and Tesla technology. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, May 25, 2001 2:10 PM Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >>Bruce Meland wrote: >> >>>He never reveals his latest model. IE money is needed to develop final >>>product. >> >>Bruce: Let me get this straight. He never reveals his latest model, >>and all of his previous models have been taken away by the >>Helicopter Men. Right? They also took all photographs, videos, test >>results, affidavits from third party independent tests, and -- in >>short -- every scrap of evidence that the device ever existed. >> >>Look at the situation from my point of view, as a potential >>investor. Because your > >I totally agree with you Jed, since I work in venture capital I do >look at this from the POV of a potential investor. In addition to the >possibility that Mr. X is liar, consider this. If the invisible >government, the IG, is sending it's goon squads to stop him, what >chance would any investor or organization have of successfully >marketing the product? > >>I suggest you send him a copy of this message, and report back his >>response. Let me warn you that people like Mr. X are a dime a dozen, >>and as far as I know they are all liars. If you believe him, you are >>extremely gullible. Any money you "invest" with him is as good as >>gone. >> >>- Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 12:36:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA30264; Sat, 26 May 2001 12:35:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:35:29 -0700 Message-ID: <001d01c0e610$7651a020$49181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Fw: Above Top Secret Files and plea for financial help. Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:19:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"k-02M1.0.kO7.1M04x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42852 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com - >FWD - from Len: > >Can you help this man? Look at his website. VERY info-dense. He is >however having financial difficulties ..... perhaps others somewhere >in your science circle contacts may be able to help him ... you >decide if it's worth the effort > > >>X-From_: ats_website-return-56-12247873@listbot.com Wed May 23 20:03:57 2001 >>Date: 24 May 2001 01:00:27 -0000 >>To: List Member >>Mailing-List: ListBot mailing list contact ats_website-help@listbot.com >>From: "Above Top Secret Newsletter" >>Delivered-To: mailing list ats_website@listbot.com >>Subject: AboveTopSecret.com Newsletter #42 >> >>Above Top Secret Newsletter - http://www.AboveTopSecret.com >> >>--------------------------- ListBot Sponsor -------------------------- >>[snip - no fwded ads.] >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Number 42 - 24th May, 2001 >> >>******* >> >>PUZZLING HYPER-GRAVITY PROVES WEIGHT MYSTERY >>21st May, 2001 >> >>An unknown force seeming to pull on a pair of distant space probes has >>left astronomers with a weighty mystery, one that appears to defy the >>conventional laws of physics. >> >>http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/05/21/gravity.mystery/index.html >> >>******* >> >>WHEN UFOs LAND: PHYSICAL PROOF OF FLYING SAUCERS >> >>http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/sci/0105STMIAP.html >> >>******* >> >>MOUNT WEATHER: PRIMED FOR MARTIAL LAW >>18th May, 2001 >> >>Mount Weather contains a working duplicate of the Executive Branch of the >>Federal government, ready to swing into action at a moment's notice. Mount >>Weather personnel also maintain a database of information on U.S. >>citizens. But relatively little is publicly known about this facility. >>Join ParaScope as we peer behind this veil of secrecy to probe the purpose >>of this ultra-secret installation. >> >>http://www.parascope.com/mx/articles/mountweather.htm >> >>******* >> >>SCIENTISTS CLAIM TO REVIVE ALIEN BACTERIA >>May 10th, 2001 >> >>Bruno D'Argenio, a geologist working for the Italian National Research >>Council, and Giuseppe Geraci, professor of molecular biology at Naples >>University, identified and brought back to life extraterrestrial >>microorganisms lodged inside 4.5 billion-year-old meteorites kept at >>Naples' mineralogical museum. >> >>http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20010507/bacteria.html >> >>******* >> >>MEN IN SUITS SEE ALIENS AS PART OF SOLUTION, NOT PROBLEM >>May 10th, 2001 >> >>A group of 21 former military and government officials told a packed house >>at the National Press Club stories worthy of a whole episode of the The X >>Files Wednesday. >> >>These men in suits spoke of high-speed saucers, crashed ships, alien >>bodies and conspiracies of silence. The eyewitnesses came forward at the >>behest of the Disclosure Project, a non-profit research group dedicated, >>as head Steven Greer says, to "working to fully disclose the facts about >>UFO's, extraterrestrial intelligence, and classified advanced energy and >>propulsion systems." >> >>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,24364,00.html >> >>******* >> >>WE NEED YOUR HELP! >> >>AboveTopSecret.com is currently having severe financial difficulties, and >>therefore the website is looking to anyone that would like to give a small >>donation of any amount towards the cause. >> >>Our mailing address is: >> >>www.AboveTopSecret.com >>1 Sackville Close >>Swindon, Wiltshire >>SN3 3EJ >>England >> >>Even if just 10% of newsletter subscribers sent $1 each, this would help >>cover one month's webhosting fees. >> >>******* >> >>MOST RECENT ADDITIONS TO ABOVETOPSECRET.COM >> >>Apollo 10 Glimpses Extra-Terrestrial Monolith >>http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/monolith.html >> >>Omega Base in Australia >>http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/omegabase.html >> >>Dimensional Portals and Dr. Wen Ho Lee >>http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/portals.html >> >>Human Experimentation on U.S. Citizens >>http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/experimentation.html >> >>Council on Foreign Relations >>http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/cfr.html >> >>Alternative 3 Mars Landing Lecture >>http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/alternative3.html >> >>******* >> >>HAVE YOU VISITED THE MESSAGE BOARD YET? >> >>AboveTopSecret.com is host to a highly popular message board (ezBoard) >>which everyone is invited to look at. If you want to take part in the >>discussions, then become an ezBoard member and have the ability to post >>your own threads and replies. >> >>Address: http://pub19.ezboard.com/babovetopsecret >> >>******* >> >>Don't forget, you can read past newsletters by logging into the Listbot >>Subscriber Area at http://ats_website.listbot.com . >> >>Simon Gray - Webmaster and Founder of http://www.AboveTopSecret.com >E-Mail - simon@abovetopsecret.com > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 12:49:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02208; Sat, 26 May 2001 12:47:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:47:03 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010525171633.0293e1f8@pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010525100850.028d89e8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010525100850.028d89e8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010525171633.0293e1f8@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 14:46:51 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"H3MMJ.0.PY.sW04x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42853 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com >thomas malloy wrote: > >>. . . In addition to the possibility that Mr. X is liar, consider >>this. If the invisible government, the IG, is sending it's goon >>squads to stop him, what chance would any investor or organization >>have of successfully marketing the product? Jed Rothwell replied; >I hadn't thought of that. You are right, but it might be fun to try >to devise a scheme to beat the goon squads. You need an elaborate >plan in which 100 prototypes are manufactured secretly, out of sight >of the IG, and placed in cities all around the world for a >coordinated, simultaneous mass unveiling. It would make a good SF >story! > >For that matter, what don't the goons come this afternoon and take >away this "latest model." Why do they let him build anything, ever? >Surely they have wiretaps and cameras. They must see him going to >Radio Shack for another load of supplies. If he can build one >"latest model" prototype, there must be a way to outwit them and >build a hundred. To which I replied This gives me an idea. Rent some helicopters and paint them in water based black paint, dress the actors in black and photograph the whole thing. Or, what a snappy come back that would to the angry investors who were expecting an O U machine From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 14:24:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA20619; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 14:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000f01c0e61f$5ba839a0$48181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 13:06:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"YEVia1.0.z15.zv14x"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42854 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Date: Thursday, May 24, 2001 6:58 PM Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Jeff Said ; He never reveals his latest model. IE money is needed to develop final >> product. > >If he never reveals his latest model, he ain't never gonna get no money. Bruce Says Your double negative answer implies the he is going to get money, which he prides himself and recently got enough money to pay off most of his $500,000 legal fees in order to keep going. >See my discussion with Jed. > >kooistra > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 14:41:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA06085; Sat, 26 May 2001 14:40:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 14:40:17 -0700 Message-ID: <003b01c0e621$e43bafc0$48181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: "Remy C." Cc: Subject: Fw: NASA's High-Pass Filtering of Face on Mars Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 13:24:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01C0E5E7.37DCD7C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"I__jj.0._U1.1B24x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42855 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C0E5E7.37DCD7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Integrity Research Institute, Thomas Valone To: iri@erols.com Date: Friday, May 25, 2001 2:23 PM Subject: NASA's High-Pass Filtering of Face on Mars=20 APPARENT NASA COVER-UP HEATS UP REGARDING FACE ON MARS =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exhibit #1 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------- NASA Science News for May 24, 2001 New high-resolution images and 3D altimetry from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft reveal the 'Face on Mars' for what it really is. FULL STORY at http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast24may_1.htm?list68305 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exhibit #2 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< =20 The above NASA news email contrasts sharply with Dr. Thomas Van = Flandern's Press Conference at the National Press Club last month, which = we attended, regarding what appears to be an interesting cover-up by = NASA. =20 A noted University of Maryland physics and astronomy professor (also a = COFE speaker), Dr. Van Flandern's presentation for the press, = simultaneously webcast, showed everyone that: =20 1) NASA used high-pass filtering on the Face on Mars in its "processing" = of the image.=20 =20 2) This type of High-pass filter, to quote from Adobe Photoshop, = "suppresses the rest of the image" while it enhances edge details. = Also,"the filter removes low frequency detail in an image."=20 =20 3) Thus, such filtration was scientifically inappropriate and is rarely = used on planetary images.=20 =20 Tom Van Flandern's conclusion is: =20 "The NASA filtering produced the previous image =96 a flat, featureless = Face object that convinced most people the Face was of natural origin. = However, it violated the first rule for planetary image processing by = making the object look less like what the human eye would see if there. = When considering why this happened, we are left with an unhappy choice = between dishonesty and incompetence."=20 =20 Integrity Research Institute suggests that you visit: = http://metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydonia/asom/artifact_html/default= .htm to view the MGS Face on Mars image #7 which was shown at the Press Club = event, corrected for the NASA "mistake." =20 Now the Face on Mars even has nostrils showing clearly. This raises questions about who at NASA is responsible?=20 =20 It also raises interest in the other forgotten MGS NASA Mars images = called "large life forms" that even Sir Arthur C. Clarke is very excited = about. One of these photos, also shown by Dr. Van Flandern at the Press = Conference, shows circular, fractal images that are tall enough to cast = shadows. =20 Almost makes one interested in visiting Mars with a manned crew. =20 =20 Sincerely, Thomas Valone, MA, PE President Integrity Research Institute 1220 L St. NW #100-232 Washington, DC 20005 202-452-7674, 800-295-7674 FAX: 301-513-5728 http://www.integrity-research.org =20 --------------------------- To unsubscribe to occasional emails: send reply with "remove" in subject = area. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C0E5E7.37DCD7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Integrity Research Institute, Thomas Valone <iri@erols.com>
To: iri@erols.com <iri@erols.com>
Date: = Friday, May=20 25, 2001 2:23 PM
Subject: NASA's High-Pass Filtering of Face = on Mars=20

APPARENT NASA COVER-UP HEATS UP REGARDING FACE ON=20 MARS
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>= >>>>>>>>>>=20 Exhibit #1=20 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<&= lt;<<
-------------------
NASA Science News for May 24, 2001

New high-resolution = images and=20 3D altimetry from NASA's Mars Global
Surveyor spacecraft reveal the = 'Face on=20 Mars' for what it really is.

FULL STORY at

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast24may_1.htm?list68305=
----------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>= >>>>>>>>>> Exhibit=20 #2=20 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<&= lt;<<
 
The above NASA news = email contrasts=20 sharply with Dr. Thomas Van Flandern's Press Conference at the National = Press=20 Club last month, which we attended, regarding what appears to = be an=20 interesting cover-up by NASA.
 
A noted University of = Maryland=20 physics and astronomy professor (also a COFE speaker), Dr. Van=20 Flandern's presentation for the press, simultaneously = webcast, showed=20 everyone that:
 
1) NASA used high-pass = filtering on=20 the Face on Mars in its "processing" of the image. =
 
2) This type of = High-pass filter, to=20 quote from Adobe Photoshop, "suppresses the rest of the image" = while=20 it enhances edge details. Also,"the filter removes low frequency = detail in=20 an image."
 
3) Thus, such = filtration was=20 scientifically inappropriate and is rarely used on planetary images.=20
 
Tom Van Flandern's = conclusion=20 is:
 
"The NASA filtering = produced=20 the previous image – a flat, featureless Face object that = convinced most=20 people the Face was of natural origin. However, it violated the first = rule for=20 planetary image processing by making the object look less like what the = human=20 eye would see if there. When considering why this happened, we are left = with an=20 unhappy choice between dishonesty and incompetence."
 
Integrity Research = Institute=20 suggests that you visit: http://metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydonia/asom/artifac= t_html/default.htm
to=20 view the MGS Face on Mars image #7 which was shown at the = Press Club=20 event, corrected for the NASA "mistake."
 
Now the Face on Mars = even has=20 nostrils showing clearly.
 
This=20 raises questions about who at NASA is responsible? =
 
It also = raises interest in=20 the other forgotten MGS NASA Mars images called "large life=20 forms" that even Sir Arthur C. Clarke is very excited about. One of = these=20 photos, also shown by Dr. Van Flandern at the Press Conference, shows = circular,=20 fractal images that are tall enough to cast shadows.
 
Almost=20 makes one interested in visiting Mars with a manned = crew.
 
 
Sincerely,
Thomas Valone, MA,=20 PE
President
Integrity Research Institute
1220 L St. NW=20 #100-232
Washington, DC 20005
202-452-7674, 800-295-7674
FAX:=20 301-513-5728
http://www.integrity-research.= org
 
---------------------------
To unsubscribe to = occasional emails:=20 send reply with "remove" in subject = area.
------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C0E5E7.37DCD7C0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 15:14:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA14354; Sat, 26 May 2001 15:12:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:12:52 -0700 Message-ID: <006801c0e626$53db4a80$48181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Fw: EER Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 13:55:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"1SeJq3.0.AW3.Zf24x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42856 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com -----Original Message----- From: EERGUY@cs.com To: etimes@teleport.com Date: Monday, May 21, 2001 8:28 PM Subject: EER NOPE! We don't need no stinkin' oil! We don't need no stinkin' batteries! We don't need no stinkin' internal combustion engine! We don't need no stinkin' fusion! We don't need no stinkin' h Hybirds. We don't need no stinkin' hydrogen-powered cars. WE JUST DO NOT NEED 'EM! EER in Brief Electronic Electricity Repository (EER) is merely a concept at this time. This involves solid state capacitors as a usable energy storage device for electric vehicles, and other items. Conventional wisdom limits capacitors to power surges, and the like. The full text of this concept will suggest a way to make them fully competitive with the internal combustion engine, while not violating the laws of energy density. The easiest way to explain it is to use an electric vehicle as an example. To power an EV with EER, an array of electronic devices -- perhaps solid-state capacitors, perhaps another device -- would contain the electrical charge accumulated from a variety of sources of electricity. Renewable energy sources are suggested, but *any* source of electricity would work. With the questionable future of battery-powered EV's, and fusion as an energy source, and the political debate about fossil fuels, there are strong reasons to take a look at EER. In fairness, many say it cannot be done. But, perhaps another war -- or avoiding one -- could put the right minds to work on this concept. It *would* provide a way to be independent of foreign oil, while providing a structure for the transition to renewable forms of energy to power EV's - or any other device powered by electricity. This is merely a shell of an idea, but perhaps some further thought could help bring it about. Frank Lincoln....72430,2407......eerguy@cs.com **************************************************************************** ** ********************** A TRIP TO THE STORE IN AN EER POWERED EV Let's suppose that the EER concept is fully developed, and built into an electric vehicle. Let's also suppose that the newest and best technological devices -- some of which are now being used in EV's - are integrated into the vehicle's design. What follows is a description of what might possibly have happened during an everyday trip to the store in such a vehicle. (This assumes the use of an *advanced* microchip capacitor). Ms. Jones notices her "fuel gauge" as she starts her vehicle; it tells her that her microchip capacitor battery is 85% full. This means that of the vast number of microchip capacitors in her "battery", 85% are charged with their very small electric capacitance. She proceeds to the store, and returns home -- a quarter mile trip. As she pulls in her driveway, she looks again at her gauge. It reads 84%. She thinks that she used only 1% of her battery capacity for her trip. But, she is wrong. She used 10% of her available charged capacitors for the quarter mile trip. So, why didn't her gauge read 75% when she returned? There were several devices built into her vehicle which were replenishing used capacitors, almost as fast as she was using them. (All figures below are guesses -- just to make the point). 1. The advanced solar panel on the roof of her vehicle was, as always during sunlight, continuously recharging at a slow, but steady rate. Because she had happened to drive and park in the sunlight, the solar panel recharged 5% of her capacitors. 2. The air scoops arranged in her vehicle's design -- although accounting for some drag -- were directing the air through small dynamos, which recharged another 2%. 3. The regenerative brakes on all four wheels replenished another 2% of the capacitors. So, she did, in fact, use 10% of the available capacitor charges, but 9% were replaced by the activity of her trip. This is nothing like perpetual motion; it is merely taking advantage of the natural surrounding energy to replenish the energy spent on the trip. It is even conceivable that her "fuel gauge" might have read a higher percentage upon her return; a shorter trip on a windier and sunnier day, in a more sunlit route and parking spot, and many more occasions to use the brakes, might have made that possible. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is not violated, because energy from outside the vehicle was being absorbed along the way. It is noted that a battery-powered EV could have done much the same, but the weight difference would have changed the percentages, so as to defeat the purpose. Frank Lincoln CS# 72430,2407 **************************************************************************** ** ********************** It is understood that high energy density is something that has been sought for many years -- the concept is nothing new. What is suggested here is the possibility that modern technology may now be in the position to actually attain it -- to a degree that could combine the many energy sources (new and old) into a common pool. GIVEN: - Trench capacitors, at the present time, have nowhere near the capability to deal with the degree of energy that would be required in Electronic Electricity Repository. - The area of the plates in a trench capacitor will, for the most part, determine the capacitance -- not exclusively, but this is the factor that is dealt with here as having the most potential for improvement. It is assumed that progress in the other factors -- dielectric strength, dielectric composition, etc., will continue, and will accommodate the supposition of surface area increase made here. HYPOTHESIS: - The surface area of a trench capacitor plate can be greatly increased without increasing the perimeter, or the space required to store the capacitor. - Etching a groove on the plate surface will do this, to a small degree, and it is done, to some extent, today. What is surmised, here, is that, as the technology allows, many cross-grooves could be etched *within* the first groove. Then, with increasing precision, these cross-grooves could, in turn, be cross-grooved. And, then those cross-grooves cross-grooved. Each successive cross-grooving would be progressively smaller - magnitudes smaller. This could be repeated until the molecular level was reached -- each time increasing the surface area of the plate, and thus the capacitance. An inexact estimate of the number of times it could be repeated is 26. It is surmised that each groove, cross-groove, and, etc., would be matched by a ridge, a cross-ridge, and, etc., on the opposite plate, with corresponding shapes for the dielectric. The resulting configuration would yield a perfectly matching set of plates (sandwiching an appropriately shaped, and expectedly advanced dielectric). Such a configuration and material composition may not be possible at this time, but the direction of efforts in their respective technologies may lead to their development in the very near future. This concept is put forth in *anticipation* of those developments. - In theory, each successive etching would substantially increase the area of the plates, and thus the capacitance *without increasing their size*, their perimeter, or the volume of space needed for them. Again, the only barrier seems to be at reaching the molecular level, after each groove is re-grooved, perpendicularly, and then THAT groove is re-grooved, etc. This would take advantage of all the "inner space" available between the plate surface, and the molecular level. (Understand that in place of "etching", Scanning Tunneling Microscope Technology might be applied -- or even nanotechnology, if that ever becomes reality. The point is to configure the grooves -- by whatever method.) BENEFITS: - An almost endless storage system for electricity. - A way to store electricity from *any* source, from renewables to a wall socket. - A possible solution to the search for a better power plant for electric vehicles. - A structure within which to make the conversion from fossil fuels to renewables. - A way to accumulate the "trickle" of the many forms of renewable energy, and combine and store them in a practical way; a way that could give strength to the many "weak" and diffuse renewable energy sources. An attempt to generally suggest HOW to accomplish EER will be made; this will be based on the feedback received so far on this concept. For the most part, feedback has come from various forums in CompuServe. All major objections will be mentioned, and a way around each one will be suggested. . ENERGY DENSITY - This appears to be the leading objection to EER. In the strongest terms, it is postulated, here, that there is no sacred or permanent universal limit to energy density -- there are only hurdles. There *are* limits to present materials and there *are* limits to a given geometry, but no universal scientific boundary that would stand forever and always. There are certainly physical limits to the materials *now* being used, but, this concept of EER does, indeed, depend upon progress in this area -- improvements in materials are bound to happen. Unless human progress is at its maximum, there is reason for such an expectation. Especially since -- many say -- technology is doubling every day with computer technology, and since many of the best resources in the world are focused on this type of science. (If anything like this concept of EER ever happens, it will be as a natural development of such materials -- and NOT a result of this effort; that is quite thoroughly understood.) It is suggest here that even without improvements in dielectrics, there may be opportunity to vastly improve their capability with the one factor -- geography of the plates. Just as computers changed everything about information, some form of EER may change the way energy is dealt with. The suggestion, above, regarding etching grooves in trench capacitor plates, and then etching those grooves, etc., is offered as a possible way to provide the structure that would enable a monumentally higher energy density, than has ever been achieved. If the geometry of the plates is configured as suggested here, and they are identically wrinkled, it is expected that a very high energy density could be achieved by taking advantage of the inner space. The accumulation of a massive repelling force between plates is a problem for which no answer will be attempted here. But, mechanics aside, it appears that developing technology will, indeed, provide the tools necessary to configure the plates. CAPACITOR LEAKAGE - Two points here: 1) Leakage in trench capacitors is not nearly as big a problem as it was a few short years ago -- holding a charge for an electric vehicle, for example, would be well within the cycle of usage. In other words, an EV would be expected to be used often enough to use the charges before they have time to leak. 2) The percentage of loss due to leakage could logically be offset by overloading the capacitor bank by a like percentage. This is somewhat of a built-in inefficiency, but in time, wouldn't the leakage problem be expected to continue to improve? ARCHING - The concern about electrical arching between the extremely small dimensions created by the etching and re-etching can only be explained away by a layman in this way: the extremely small dimensions would occur between parts of the same plate - and *not* between the opposing plates. The surfaces of the two plates would remain equidistant over the entire area. It is expected that the extremely small dimensions would only occur between points on the same plate, at the same potential -- and, thus, no arching would be anticipated. ATOMIC LEVEL - In a pretty thorough analysis in the LEAP forum, it was indicated that "the whole idea of a capacitor thus breaks down as we approach atomic dimensions". (The following assumes abilities predicted by some as to etching, Scanning Tunneling Microscope Technology, atomic force microscope, lithography, or other methods.) If you make one groove (G1) in a capacitor plate, that certainly does not approach atomic dimensions, yet it does increase the surface area of the plate (without increasing its perimeter). Then, if you go back and make another groove (G2) WITHIN G1's SURFACE, you are closer -- but still not near the atomic level. Then if the surface of G2 is etched (or STM'd) with G3, you are closer yet; closer -- but still a long way from the atomic level. How far? Well, the number 26 seems to hold up as the number of times you could re-etch grooves, before you hit bottom. ( Each successive etching step would be, say, a hundred times smaller than the previous one. G3 is a hundred times smaller than G2. G2 is a hundred times smaller than G1, and etc. G26 would be the smallest, and would begin to enter atomic dimensions.) Now, backing up, let's say you made a hundred tiny grooves on the surface of the original plate -- so you have 100 G1's. Within each G1, you etch 100 much smaller G2's. Within each G2 you etch 100 G3's, which are yet, again, much smaller. This is a million grooves at the 3rd of 26 steps. If you could continue on in this way for 26 re-groovings of the grooves, how many grooves would you have at the 26th step? And, by how much would you have increased the surface area of that plate? And how much more dipole moment effect would now take place? And how much more ability to hold charge would you have? If the number 26 makes you cranky, stop at 20, or 12. The point is this: there is a tremendous amount of "inner space" available *before* you reach atomic level. Perhaps an optimum number could be safely reached. Even 12 would seem to provide a monumental increase in charge storage ability. Subject to mathematicians' scrutiny, there may be 10^24 grooves, when you are only halfway down to atomic level, and free of the terrible things that happen there. At the halfway point, you have monumentally increased the surface area, without threatening stability. Assuming that the dielectric follows the shape of the plate exactly, have you not vastly increased the number of molecules subject to polar realignment in the electric field? Could it be said that, even though the individual dipole moments would stay at the same in magnitude, there is an opportunity to create a tremendously larger number of them, by taking advantage of the inner space available? MASS PRODUCTION - Some of these techniques to reform very small structures are very slow and very expensive. Some question was raised as to their adaptability to a mass production situation. As with any change in technology, first efforts are not usually efficient. But there seems to be enough advantages to EER so that the forces of supply and demand would push the costs down. Once in the competitive market, improvements in technique could be expected. GROOVES TOO SMALL? - A statement made in one of the forums was, "There is a limit to how small the grooves can be before they don't work any more." As this was from a good source, it is taken seriously. If some of the logic, above, doesn't account for this, there may be difficulty, here. DISCHARGE TIME - Capacitors normally discharge very quickly, so wouldn't they make a rather bad storage device? No detailed answer will be attempted, here, but can't this be controlled with a very low discharge current, with a high resistance? Electricity is -- or can be -- the common denominator for all energy sources, from solar to hydro. It is for exactly this reason that EER could employ each and every energy source. All the new renewable technology could be "fed" into EER - without exception. Yet, at the same time, conventional sources could contribute to it -- every drop of oil and every lump of coal on this planet could be used, purposely. Could this captured energy not then be put to use, as needed, and when needed, by controlling the energy bursts to simulate conventional electricity flow? ******************* The technology that would be needed for EER *seems* to be within sight - with some faith required, perhaps, for the materials. Basically, it is the ability to sculpt materials at the molecular level which brought about this revised approach to EER. I have never seen the etching process, nor STM; this whole concept of extremely small sculpting to obtain extremely high surface area is drawn from my imagination -- and the little I have read about these processes. I am motivated by the extreme advantages that would come about, and the apparent ability to accomplish this; if not on a production basis, then at least on a prototype basis, to start. I'm certain there are still technical errors in this effort -- it is hoped that the general idea was communicated with some adequacy. This *seems* possible - or within reach - to me, and it *seems* as though it would bring about profound benefits, and it *seems* to me that it is a logical way to approach energy at this point in time. But, I defer to the experts. **************************************************************************** ** ********************** I have no patent on this idea. My motivation is not monetary. I understand that this could not be done today, because of limits on existing dielectrics, and perhaps other items. My position is that EER is not impossible, given advances in some technologies. Please respond by Email or call at (248) 288-3459 eerguy@cs.com Please keep in mind that EER would allow energy from any and all sources to be stored and combined in such a way that an electric vehicle could, at some later time, be powered by it. Separating a steel sample using a tensile tester could be useful in EER. The jagged edges could be cut off, just past their breakpoint. Call these two pieces of jagged metal our capacitor plates. The broken pieces are matched molecular for molecule. If a dielectric is molded between the two jagged ends, the fit could not be better. "d" is maintained. The area of the matching jagged edges is much, much more than the cross section of the steel sample. We then have matching capacitor plates without using STM to configure all the surfaces. Note: EER may not solve all energy problems, but in my opinion, it could certainly power personal vehicles. Anyone who receives this is free to publish. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 15:17:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA16141; Sat, 26 May 2001 15:16:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:16:49 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c0e631$85a76520$81c21004@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <000f01c0e61f$5ba839a0$48181ad8@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 18:16:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"wDn_n.0.6y3.Gj24x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42857 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Bruce, > Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing > > > Jeff said: He never reveals his latest model. IE money is needed to develop final product. No Bruce, you said that. I said: > >If he never reveals his latest model, he ain't never gonna get no money. Then: > Bruce Says Your double negative answer implies the he is going to get money, Well, Bruce, it's actually a triple negative. "Ain't never" = "is", leaving "Is going to get no money." Anyway, > which he prides himself and recently got enough money to pay off most of > his $500,000 legal fees in order to keep going. These legal fees are likely as mythical as the helicopter raids. Regardless, Jed has already made the point about what a venture capitalist would need to see, and so far nothing has been shown. Talk is cheap. Now, if your friend really has something and really got enough money to pay off his legal bills and really gets raided, then I will apologize for doubting you just as soon as I see any proof. And more than that, since I write a science column for Analog SF, I would even do an article on it. [Analog has a readership of around 45,000 people, which I think is way more than all of the alternative science magazines put together, which also have a large readership overlap. What better way for your friend to reach more people who might be able to support him?] kooistra > >See my discussion with Jed. > > > >kooistra > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 15:39:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22038; Sat, 26 May 2001 15:38:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:38:27 -0700 Message-ID: <001a01c0e634$8fa4bd40$62e13604@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010525100850.028d89e8@pop.mindspring.com><5.0.2.1.2.20010525100850.028d89e8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010525171633.0293e1f8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 18:38:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"VXxi31.0.GO5.Z134x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42859 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com > I hadn't thought of that. You are right, but it might be fun to try to > devise a scheme to beat the goon squads. You need an elaborate plan in > which 100 prototypes are manufactured secretly, out of sight of the IG, and > placed in cities all around the world for a coordinated, simultaneous mass > unveiling. It would make a good SF story! I think that one has been done to death. Actually, there does exist a perfect story about an inventor coming up with a great invention only to be largely ignored by the rest of the world. The protagonist has to use devious methods to introduce his technology via rather mundane applications. The story was by Theodore Sturgeon, and I think it was called "Old Brown Shoe." All my SF books are in storage right now so I can't just find it a minute. I may find the title on the web later. > For that matter, what don't the goons come this afternoon and take away > this "latest model." Why do they let him build anything, ever? Surely they > have wiretaps and cameras. They must see him going to Radio Shack for > another load of supplies. If he can build one "latest model" > prototype, there must be a way to outwit them and build a hundred. Those guys not only use wiretaps, they even have someone reading Vortex! kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 15:39:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA21725; Sat, 26 May 2001 15:38:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:38:00 -0700 Message-ID: <00d401c0e629$f53961c0$48181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Fw: ET-Components (Overview 1/2) Mr. Oberg Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 14:15:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"u4dDW1.0.IJ5.7134x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42858 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com -----Original Message----- From: BF11 (by way of Patrick Bailey) To: BCC: UFO_Send_List Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 4:21 PM Subject: Fwd: ET-Components (Overview 1/2) Mr. Oberg >FWD: FYI: > >Part (1) 0f 2) > >From: WF11@webtv.net (BF11) >Newsgroups: alt.alien.research >Subject: ET-Components (Overview) Mr. Oberg >Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 20:10:49 -0600 (CST) >Organization: WebTV Subscriber >Lines: 74 >Message-ID: <21935-3A4E95A9-7@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net> >NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net >Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) >Content-Type: Text/Plain >X-WebTV-Signature: 1 > ETAuAhUAhLr88tljTGh1ZtA2g21qamNgA1ECFQCTv8IduTT4D7ktstcpBHMWviBP6g== >Content-Disposition: Inline > >Metallurgy > >The most commonly used metal in extra-terrestrial craft construction is >HYDROGEN metal. It originates naturally on some planets but not on >earth. Like Superman on Earth, HYDROGEN metal is for all practical >purposes indestructible. It is very light in weight. Due to its >incredible strength, it can be very thin, and superconductive at room >temp., ideal for projecting a poweful shield that allows for >superluminal speeds. > > >At the present earth time , the first year of the millennium, after >transistion year 2000, Lawerence-Livermore Labs has made a miscule amt. >of Hydrogen Metal, a couple or so years ago, but no vast quantities, as >the present conversion process is very inefficent, using extreme >pressure, and cold, for some crystals. > > >You could say H-metal is the opposite of H-gas-plasma-fusion, with at >least as much energy output, produced in a different way. > >The second most common metal is Titanium Alloys. The metals used for the >alloys are available in limited quantities on Earth and are referred to >as rare Earth elements. > >Power Source > >The most common power source from most extra-terrestrial civilizations >is an antimatter system. The antimatter is contained in a dual envelop >electromagnetic sphere. The sphere is created by multiple redundancy, >self-healing components. (Plasmonic) >The size of the containment spheres range from 3 inches to 12 inches in >multiples of 3. There are none larger than 12 inches in diameter allowed >in this solar system. > >Power > >Power is produced by injecting a Hydrogen atom stripped of the electron. >It passes through electromagnetic membrane one which seals behind it as >it enters membrane two, hence the dual envelop electromagnetic sphere. >The reaction is controlled by a precise calculation of antimatter >quantity to Hydrogen nucleus quantity formula. > >Safety > >The anti-matter power source is enclosed in a detachable module on the >bottom of the craft. If the redundancy system fails, the craft >automatically does whatever maneuver is necessary to eject the module >away from structures. There is a secondary power source of stored energy >that can sustain the vehicle until help arrives. > >Shielding > >All extra-terrestrial craft use shielding when in operation. The >shielding for most civilizations is a dis-harmonic system meaning that >all energy striking the shield that is not the shield's frequency makes >the shield stronger. The shield is programmed to rapidly and randomly >cycle through various frequencies unlikely to be encountered naturally. >This reduces weapon effectiveness against the shields. > >Also, just moving through the Earth atmosphere makes the shields >stronger due to the dis-harmonic frequencies encountered. This is why >moving extra-terrestrial vehicles have different color displays at >various times. The brighter the apparent light source, the more powerful >the shield. > >Definitely sounds like a cool way to fly: > >(Some info. synthesized from the Path to the Source website.) > > > BF11 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 16:35:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05266; Sat, 26 May 2001 16:35:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 16:35:03 -0700 Message-ID: <03a901c0e633$d0656380$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Rubber Albatross Problem Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:31:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"kTI_L3.0.CI1.ds34x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42860 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com A friend of mine that lives out in a semi-rural area on a few acres has a very large old rubber tractor tire that came with the property. The refuse service refuses to take it, neither will anyone else. He tried cutting it up, but it has steel wires in it that ruins saw blades. Burning it is out of the question because of air pollution (sulfur) and burning restrictions. Dumping it in a creek out along the highway could bring high penalties. Using it as a planter for a flower bed is a hazard because it could act as a breeding ground for disease-carrying mosquitoes. Crating it up and shipping it to China costs too much. Anyone on vortex-l have a solution? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 16:36:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05488; Sat, 26 May 2001 16:36:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 16:36:05 -0700 Message-ID: <005701c0e63c$9d96b5e0$62e13604@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010523103830.00a82ef0@pop.mindspring.com><5.0.2.1.2.20010524093823.029237a8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010525172729.02961870@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: The useful discussion has begun. Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 19:35:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ETnp91.0.fL1.bt34x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42861 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Jed, In addition to good, your answers are crisp and to the point. I have just a few additional questions to bounce around based on what you said, then I guess we just have to hope (or demand) that inventors out there actually pay attention. > >but as you know, most inventors don't come in with anything like a "product" ready > >to be marketed.... > They face the same predicament as the CF scientists. Alas, I have no answer > for them. If I had one, I would have sold gadgets made by Mizuno or Storms > years ago. Does anyone out there want a $10,000 experiment that produces > 0.3 watts excess heat? Works nearly every time? Contact Ed or me, and we'll > set you up with one. This has been one of my concerns with CF--I want the reality of it to be acknowledge like I want any fact in physics to be recognized. But I don't know if it could ever be a useful source of energy, and the only way I know of to find out requires gobs of money and lots of effort with lots of expensive equipment. Hot fusion has had this for years and we still don't know if it can ever be a useful source of power. Even if a working hot fusion reactor is eventually built, will it ever be practical from a $$$ point of view? > My comments were about products that various people claim they have, which > supposedly produce 5 to 100 watts heat or electricity reliably, with little > or no background input. These people complain they cannot get funded. Yes, the same ones that never actually produce the device to show off. Oh, except for those who do show up and demonstrate that they don't know how to make measurements. > >Now, what was it you saw from these scientists (by way of their scientific ideas, and/or > >experiments, and/or devices, and/or scientific training) that led you to be > >willing to give assistance? How did you evaluate their ideas, experiments, > >etc. since you are not yourself a scientist? Which criteria were important to you? > > Well, if we were talking about evaluating DNA therapy, or advanced light > water fission reactors I would be incapable of evaluating their ideas. But > in this field, any fool can make the determination. A half-literate auto > mechanic can tell you exactly what criteria are important, and how to > measure them: > > Power out minus power in, and the dollar cost of the gadget. This is where some of the trouble may come in. In Dr. Storms' case, we have someone who both knows what he's doing, has been doing it for a long time, and had all the requisite training beforehand. But his measurements of power in versus power out are not really simple measurements to make. In any device with sparking, sliding contacts, and significant heat generation (just to name a few), determining power in and power out might not be at all easy to do. (Fortunately for us, the Shelton device had so many obvious problems that we didn't really have to contend with the fact that we couldn't adequately measure either power in or power out.) I gather that you would pass on the "opportunity" to fund such a device? > With an anti-gravity machine, you put it on a scale and crank it up. If it > works, you are in business. Oh, good example--that reminds me of something. When evaluating an "anti-gravity device", you really have to know how the scale works or you can fool yourself badly. I've seen some other purported AG devices discussed around here--lots of talk goes into doing a replication, but not enough into how to measure. For instance, it is not enough to put a device on a scale atop a table and watch it "lose" a pound or two. It would be safer to put the device on the scale on the table, and then put that table on a scale, and see if the whole thing loses a pound or two. I've seen one idea for an AG device floating around (hah hah) that involves currents in the hundreds of amps range. To get any kind of reliable measurement of weight loss from such a device, one would have to understand precisely what sort of mundane E&M coupling might happen between device + scale or device + scale + table + steel beams in ceiling +... lot's of other things. > >Does it have to be an already viable gadget? > > Yup. As expected, you're practical. What is your opinion about investors who fund inventors with nothing more than a theory? > >What if the inventor hasn't had enough money to make a viable gadget? > > He is out of luck. Unless he finds a sucker? > >What sort of presentation would he HAVE to make to you to get you to think he could indeed be successful > >in building his gadget? > > I guess he would have to win over the APS, which is probably impossible. > Who else pays for theories? I wouldn't know. Well, let's see: Dave Capaletti (sp?) the Boscoli funder seems to have done just that. So some people WILL pay for theories if the cock and bull story is good enough. Thank you for your replies. kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 17:24:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA18739; Sat, 26 May 2001 17:23:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:23:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3B107315.C597C4AB@groupz.net> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 20:23:01 -0700 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rubber Albatross Problem References: <03a901c0e633$d0656380$9731b43f@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0TDWX3.0.ea4.Ea44x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42862 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Make a strawberry hill...fill with dirt in mound shape and plant with strawberries.....hope helps....steve Frederick Sparber wrote: > > A friend of mine that lives out in a semi-rural area on a few acres has a very large > old rubber tractor tire that came with the property. > > The refuse service refuses to take it, neither will anyone else. He tried cutting it > up, but it has steel wires in it that ruins saw blades. Burning it is out of the > question because of air pollution (sulfur) and burning restrictions. > > Dumping it in a creek out along the highway could bring high penalties. > > Using it as a planter for a flower bed is a hazard because it could act as a breeding > ground for disease-carrying mosquitoes. > > Crating it up and shipping it to China costs too much. > > Anyone on vortex-l have a solution? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 18:27:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA04645; Sat, 26 May 2001 18:24:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 18:24:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3B105728.A9AA68AF@suite224.net> Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 21:23:52 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rubber Albatross Problem References: <03a901c0e633$d0656380$9731b43f@computer> <3B107315.C597C4AB@groupz.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WXFTl1.0.U81.rS54x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42863 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com sno wrote: > > Make a strawberry hill...fill with dirt in mound shape and > plant with > strawberries.....hope helps....steve I like that idea, steve. Or, forget about the exercise studio for a few days and just bury the tire in a remote spot. Another, plant a small tree in the middle of the tire and in 20 years have a nice conversation piece for family picnics. Another, paint it white and sell it to a lawn sale customer as a bucolic yard ornament - offer free delivery. Neatly lable a Firestone logo on the side and try to get it recalled! Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 19:10:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA13542; Sat, 26 May 2001 19:09:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 19:09:40 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010526211139.00cdf830@postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 21:12:06 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Careful .ASK A HAM.. The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla In-Reply-To: <036301c0e5bc$332a5ac0$9731b43f@computer> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"B8Syr1.0.QJ3.Z764x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42864 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com At 03:16 AM 5/26/01 -0500, you wrote: >Why should I ASK A HAM, John? > >I built my first radio at age 14, while taking a home study course. Then 8 >months of >intensive training in the U.S. Army Signal Corps, at Fort Monmouth N.J. >(Korean >War,and 2 more years) followed by operating and maintaining high power >communications >equipment with antennas 80 ft in the air and 1,000 ft long (Rhombics) Then >High Power >RADAR operation and maintenance . Followed by college and TV broadcast station >operation to pay the rent. I would say you are probably aware of these problems. :-) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 26 19:45:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22466; Sat, 26 May 2001 19:43:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 19:43:57 -0700 Message-ID: <01C0E61C.6A64AF30.dequickert@ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Rubber Albatross Problem Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 19:45:24 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NqSi23.0.yU5.id64x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42865 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On Saturday, May 26, 2001 3:32 PM, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Using it as a planter for a flower bed is a hazard because it could act as a breeding > ground for disease-carrying mosquitoes. ?? How's that? If the soil is up above the lower rim, and there's drainage, don't see how water would pool. (warning: ascii art follows, courier font) __ __ /--------------------\ | | \__ __/ The only thing is, tire planters are pretty darned ugly if not disguised with something like soil mounding over the sides (unless it is a winter planter, in which case the black can add desireable heat). OTOH, in a shady spot, it _could_ be sunk in the ground and used as a garden pond container, with some mosquito fish or one of those bacillus thurengiensis (sp?) blocks for control. A friend did that, and it worked well except she had to build ramps for the toads to be able to climb out (because of the rim). The toads were good because they ate the slugs that tended to live under the rim. But then she also had to put chickenwire over most of it because the local cats liked to go fishing there. Overall quite a complex little ecosystem :-) Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 04:00:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA13267; Sun, 27 May 2001 03:59:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 03:59:03 -0700 Message-ID: <3B10DD03.F52A7F1E@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 03:54:59 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: 9th International Conference on Cold Fusion] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FEPzI2.0.BF3.stD4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42866 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com -------- Original Message -------- Subject: 9th International Conference on Cold Fusion Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 20:39:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "iccf9" To: Dear Colleagues and Friends, I am glad to make the first announcement for ICCF-9. We have the WebSite and e-mail addreass now for The Ninth International Conference on Cold Fusion. That is: http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn and the e-mail address : Iccf9@tsinghua.edu.cn Your early suggestions and comments would help us to make a better arrangement for ICCF-9. We are looking forward to seeing your early reply (Pre-registration!). Sincerely yours, Li, Xing Zhong Mailing address: Prof. Li, Xing Zhong Dept. of Physics, Tsinghua Univ., Beijing 100084, CHINA Tel.:86-10-6278 4343 Fax:86-10-6278 4343 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 07:41:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA21938; Sun, 27 May 2001 07:39:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 07:39:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3B112E93.6A6@bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 09:43:41 -0700 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rubber Albatross Problem References: <03a901c0e633$d0656380$9731b43f@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RQJVn1.0.iM5.E6H4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42867 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Frederick Sparber wrote: > Anyone on vortex-l have a solution? Fill it with polyurethane foam, paint it brown and open a doughnut shop. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 07:50:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA24561; Sun, 27 May 2001 07:50:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 07:50:04 -0700 Message-ID: <04c501c0e6b3$a36ae500$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Rubber Albatross Problem Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 08:47:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"W5a-T1.0.c_5.SGH4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42868 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thanks to all vortexians for their input in solving this dilemma. It was decided that using a reciprocating saw to cut up the Very Large Old Tractor Tire into manageable pieces that the refuse service would accept for landfill disposal would be the best solution. Sears www.sears.com sells reciprocating saws that range in price from $60.00 and up. Six inch cutting blades that will handle steel and rubber (~14 to 18 teeth/inch x 0.035" thick) are available for a few dollars each. (blade specs and applications can be found on the net) Since this is a one-shot deal, rental of a reciprocating saw from a Contractors Equipment Rental establishment for about $15.00 per day is probably the best bet. These places can be found at www.switchboard.com yellow pages which has listings for rental establishments out to 100 miles from major cities. Sound reasonable? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 08:05:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27493; Sun, 27 May 2001 08:05:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 08:05:03 -0700 Message-ID: <01C0E683.F34937A0.dequickert@ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Rubber Albatross Problem Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 08:06:31 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HZi38.0.Vj6.UUH4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42869 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fred, you must have been in management: identify a problem, reject the in-house staff proposal, put it out to bid, reject all of those, then declare a minor modification of the original in-house idea as your solution ;-) Dan Quickert On Sunday, May 27, 2001 6:48 AM, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Thanks to all vortexians for their input in solving this dilemma. > > It was decided that using a reciprocating saw to cut up the > Very Large Old Tractor Tire into manageable pieces that the refuse service would > accept for landfill disposal would be the best solution. > > Sears www.sears.com sells reciprocating saws that range in price from $60.00 and up. > > Six inch cutting blades that will handle steel and rubber (~14 to 18 teeth/inch x > 0.035" thick) are available for a few dollars each. (blade specs and applications can > be found on the net) > > Since this is a one-shot deal, rental of a reciprocating saw > from a Contractors Equipment Rental establishment for about $15.00 per day is probably > the best bet. > > These places can be found at www.switchboard.com yellow pages which has listings for > rental establishments out to 100 miles from major cities. > > Sound reasonable? > > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 09:49:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23646; Sun, 27 May 2001 09:47:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 09:47:39 -0700 Message-ID: <04ea01c0e6c4$0db02500$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <01C0E683.F34937A0.dequickert@ucdavis.edu> Subject: Re: Rubber Albatross Problem Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 10:45:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"Skx0I.0.Nn5.g-I4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42870 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Quickert" To: Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:06 AM Subject: RE: Rubber Albatross Problem Actually Dan, I find that when I argue with myself I always come out right. :-) Regards, Frederick > Fred, you must have been in management: identify a problem, reject the > in-house staff proposal, put it out to bid, reject all of those, then > declare a minor modification of the original in-house idea as your solution > ;-) > > Dan Quickert > > On Sunday, May 27, 2001 6:48 AM, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Thanks to all vortexians for their input in solving this dilemma. > > > > It was decided that using a reciprocating saw to cut up the > > Very Large Old Tractor Tire into manageable pieces that the refuse > service would > > accept for landfill disposal would be the best solution. > > > > Sears www.sears.com sells reciprocating saws that range in price from > $60.00 and up. > > > > Six inch cutting blades that will handle steel and rubber (~14 to 18 > teeth/inch x > > 0.035" thick) are available for a few dollars each. (blade specs and > applications can > > be found on the net) > > > > Since this is a one-shot deal, rental of a reciprocating saw > > from a Contractors Equipment Rental establishment for about $15.00 per > day is probably > > the best bet. > > > > These places can be found at www.switchboard.com yellow pages which has > listings for > > rental establishments out to 100 miles from major cities. > > > > Sound reasonable? > > > > Regards, Frederick > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 12:39:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05377; Sun, 27 May 2001 12:38:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 12:38:31 -0700 Message-ID: <04f801c0e6db$ee95e0c0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 13:35:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"bgRg42.0.qJ1.sUL4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42871 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Frank Stenger wrote: > > OK, is this the circuit?? > Maybe we're going at this the wrong way, Frank. If the roof is completely insulated, on the bottom by the roof structure and on the top with a layer of insulating paint, at ~ 3 meters height it still should go up to the ~ 600 volt Fair Weather Field potential wrt Earth Ground. Doesn't this mean that a large capacitor with one side connected to ground will have the 600 volt potential applied to it, and thus since it's "stored" energy will be 1/2 CV^2 and "charge" Q = CV? Now then, you should be able to dump the capacitor through a load, and thus keep "milking" energy out of the atmosphere. :-) Thus, each time you reconnect the capacitor to the roof, there should be a displacement current of untold magnitude recharging it. Sounds simple enough, doesn't it? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 13:53:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25002; Sun, 27 May 2001 13:52:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 13:52:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3B11690F.635FE33C@suite224.net> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 16:52:31 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla References: <04f801c0e6db$ee95e0c0$9731b43f@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ztwDy.0.V66.OaM4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42872 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Maybe we're going at this the wrong way, Frank. > > If the roof is completely insulated, on the bottom > by the roof structure and on the top with a layer of insulating paint, at ~ 3 meters > height it still should go up to the ~ 600 volt Fair Weather Field potential wrt Earth > Ground. > > Doesn't this mean that a large capacitor with one side connected to ground will have > the 600 volt potential > applied to it, and thus since it's "stored" energy will be > 1/2 CV^2 and "charge" Q = CV? > > Now then, you should be able to dump the capacitor through a load, and thus keep > "milking" energy out of the atmosphere. :-) Maybe we should just use the 1000 ft^2 of the roof as the only capacitor? One way or another, we need to "condition" the energy so we can store it in a battery at a usable voltage. Maybe we need a smart converter with a high-voltage transformer input. When the converter sensed that the roof voltage was high enough, it could charge the "primary" of the transformer by putting it in series with the roof to ground. The converter would sense peak current in the transformer - which we would pick to have enough inductance to store "one roof charge" - and open the primary-to-ground leg. Then, the converter could condition the secondary pulse to suit our storage battery needs. On another tact altogether, I wonder if there is a size of wind turbine that would make it practical to actually "fly" the thing like an autogyro? Build the thing with twin (or more) contra-rotating autogyro rotors and fly it from a short tower when the wind was up. This way, we could fly the rotors up to a real go-get-em wind altitude and pipe the output from the alternators down the tether line. The tower would need a 1st class servo winch to bring the rotors down if the wind failed. We could use a smart PC to control the winch so we could bring the rotors down in a dead calm. Hey, it we could get this thing up into the jet stream...!!! We could catch a few 777s on a good day! You could fly this over that near-by Wal-Mart, Fred - if the store wouldn't take your returns, you could threaten to buzz their store and clear off all the roof-mounted equipment. :-) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 13:55:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25436; Sun, 27 May 2001 13:55:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 13:55:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3B116917.8C0656E5@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 13:52:39 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Rubber Albatross Problem References: <04c501c0e6b3$a36ae500$9731b43f@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"f2TC03.0.MD6.ZcM4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42873 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com May 27, 2001 Fred, Surely there must be some farmers, farmers' orgs, the 4H clubs in the area that have faced 'rubber albatrosses' disposal problems. Telephone inquiries may solve the problem without hacking the tire apart. Otherwise, you could make tough sandals out of it and we would have an export product to southeast asia. Get some of those dollars back. -AK- Frederick Sparber wrote: > Thanks to all vortexians for their input in solving this dilemma. > > It was decided that using a reciprocating saw to cut up the > Very Large Old Tractor Tire into manageable pieces that the refuse service would > accept for landfill disposal would be the best solution. > > Sears www.sears.com sells reciprocating saws that range in price from $60.00 and up. > > Six inch cutting blades that will handle steel and rubber (~14 to 18 teeth/inch x > 0.035" thick) are available for a few dollars each. (blade specs and applications can > be found on the net) > > Since this is a one-shot deal, rental of a reciprocating saw > from a Contractors Equipment Rental establishment for about $15.00 per day is probably > the best bet. > > These places can be found at www.switchboard.com yellow pages which has listings for > rental establishments out to 100 miles from major cities. > > Sound reasonable? > > Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 14:30:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02679; Sun, 27 May 2001 14:29:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 14:29:46 -0700 Sender: hoyt@eskimo.com Message-ID: <3B1171E0.E5077A1A@home.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 14:30:08 -0700 From: "Hoyt Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stargate@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, nids@anv.net Subject: Physical scientific method & RV References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OfPeB2.0.if.A7N4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42874 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com I hear many scientists trying to explain remote viewing (especially precognitive RV) and other anomalous phenomena using the methods of physical science-- forming a hypothesis, then testing it in the physical laboratory, that I want to venture another view--that using the physical scientific approach is not a productive exercise. Just the fact alone that it's impossible to have a blind or double blind experiment invalidates much of science, and we know remote viewing studies show that there really aren't any secrets. Ironic, isn't it: Science has invalidated itself! It is amusing to me to watch the quantum physicists squirm as they get experimental results that are entirely against common sense. Sooner or later they'll have to come to grips with the nature of universal reality. See: http://www.nidsci.org/articles/pdf/timereversed.pdf Doesn't backward causality alone invalidate our currently accepted methods? When there is no cause->effect relationship, all bets are off! I want to take this further, however. It was not unreasonable for scientists to want to explain PSI, and I really have nothing against them trying it--but all it really seems to do is show the existence of anomalous phenomena and that these phenomena are outside of physical reality. Here's my analogy: Assume, for the sake of argument, that physical reality as we know it is a computer program modeling a somewhat consistent but totally artifical reality, much as video game software does. In general, the characters inside the game can't even know that they are simulations, much less how the machine on which they're running works. In our case, however, we do know that we are, in effect, playing out physical time-space reality, and we do have the capacity to understand how the machine we're running on (the non-physical universe) works. Physical science is part of the model (game) and has little to do with the nature of the non-physical universe. The real universe does have a physics of its own: a consistent set of properties and laws, but they're unrelated to the ones physical science has developed for use here. I'm guessing that the laws are fairly simple. I am endeavoring to formulate the universal physics into a somewhat consistent form, but it seems to be more in the domain of software engineering than physics, as the universe is really only composed of one thing, it seems: consciousness. The smallest particle is the Consciousness Unit (CU, as Seth calls it). Universal physics is therefore only: What are the properties of CU's and how do they interact? That's it. It's interesting that there are a number of movies and TV shows recently that are based on the idea of "physical reality as a model". None are entirely satisfactory to me, but there are important points in each of them that are accurate in my opinion. Ones I remember are off hand: The Thirteenth Floor The Matrix Dark City And I think the best of all, a magnificent and complex story: Two related episodes of Startrek: The Next Generation Ship in a Bottle Elementary, Dear Data. Why do you think this type of plot is seemingly becoming more prevalent? Is mass consciousness getting an inkling of how things really work? Best Regards, Hoyt Stearns Phoenix From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 15:50:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA21704; Sun, 27 May 2001 15:49:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 15:49:44 -0700 Message-ID: <051c01c0e6f6$a310bba0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <04c501c0e6b3$a36ae500$9731b43f@computer> <3B116917.8C0656E5@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Rubber Albatross Problem Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 16:47:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"bpcZ-3.0.-I5.7IO4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42876 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Akira Kawasaki" To: Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 3:52 PM Subject: Re: Rubber Albatross Problem > May 27, 2001 > > Fred, > > Surely there must be some farmers, farmers' orgs, the 4H clubs in the area that have faced > 'rubber albatrosses' disposal problems. Telephone inquiries may solve the problem without > hacking the tire apart. Not that I know of, Akira. The ag tire shops charge umpteen $$ per tire to dispose of them. And they won't take tires that are not being replaced. Regards, Frederick Otherwise, you could make tough sandals out of it and we would > have an export product to southeast asia. Get some of those dollars back. > > -AK- > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > Thanks to all vortexians for their input in solving this dilemma. > > > > It was decided that using a reciprocating saw to cut up the > > Very Large Old Tractor Tire into manageable pieces that the refuse service would > > accept for landfill disposal would be the best solution. > > > > Sears www.sears.com sells reciprocating saws that range in price from $60.00 and up. > > > > Six inch cutting blades that will handle steel and rubber (~14 to 18 teeth/inch x > > 0.035" thick) are available for a few dollars each. (blade specs and applications can > > be found on the net) > > > > Since this is a one-shot deal, rental of a reciprocating saw > > from a Contractors Equipment Rental establishment for about $15.00 per day is probably > > the best bet. > > > > These places can be found at www.switchboard.com yellow pages which has listings for > > rental establishments out to 100 miles from major cities. > > > > Sound reasonable? > > > > Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 15:51:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA20975; Sun, 27 May 2001 15:46:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 15:46:36 -0700 Message-ID: <050801c0e6f6$344738c0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <04f801c0e6db$ee95e0c0$9731b43f@computer> <3B11690F.635FE33C@suite224.net> Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 16:44:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"BaeE52.0.e75.BFO4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42875 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francis J. Stenger" To: Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 3:52 PM Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Frank wrote: > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > Maybe we're going at this the wrong way, Frank. > > > > If the roof is completely insulated, on the bottom > > by the roof structure and on the top with a layer of insulating paint, at ~ 3 meters > > height it still should go up to the ~ 600 volt Fair Weather Field potential wrt Earth > > Ground. > > > > Doesn't this mean that a large capacitor with one side connected to ground will have > > the 600 volt potential > > applied to it, and thus since it's "stored" energy will be > > 1/2 CV^2 and "charge" Q = CV? > > > > Now then, you should be able to dump the capacitor through a load, and thus keep > > "milking" energy out of the atmosphere. :-) > > Maybe we should just use the 1000 ft^2 of the roof as the only > capacitor? I think you are missing the point, Frank. The roof acts as a means to establish the Potential on the plus side of the capacitor,and the Earth Ground sets the negative side, ie., the Fair Weather Field Potential that may be due to the Charge difference between the Sun (Q1) and the Earth Q2. Since the stored energy w = 1/2 CV^2 if you use a 10,000 microfarad capacitor and get a potential of 600 volts on it off the roof: w = 0.5 *0.01* 600^2 = 1800 watts at one charge cycle/second. You couldn't get that high a capacitance off your roof. >One way or another, we need to "condition" the energy so > we can store it in a battery at a usable voltage. You can switch the capacitor connection to the roof in and out as you are connecting the "load" at a rate that will set the voltage where you want it. Thus you have two displacement currents, I = C dV/dt, one for charging the capacitor and the other for discharging it into theload. Regards, Frederick > > Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 20:21:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA02569; Sun, 27 May 2001 20:19:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:19:16 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 23:24:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3B11690F.635FE33C@suite224.net> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"yRoP7.0.3e.qES4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42877 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Frank. Use a transformer in series with a spark gap. When the voltage gets high enough, the gap fires, and tap the low voltage output from the xformer, rectify and charge a battery. I disagree with Fred, you'd do better to have the isolated plate uninsulated, but I used to work with aluminum plate which had an oxide coating and it still worked fine (roofing material). At the voltages being considered it's not really going to matter, especially with things getting wet and all. I never had the opportunity to do this out in the open plains, I anticipate you'll have some happy results here Frank. Drive that ground rod, and have at it. Wish I was out there to help. Right now I have a 100,000pf capacitor charged to 6 volts from just a long piece of twinlead stuck on the roof of my brownstone. The weathers finally turned a bit stormy, any bets on what's gonna happen when the weather really gets rockin'? <100mv yesterday when the weather was nice. Charge time was about 30 seconds after shorting the cap. Oh yeah, the cap's polystyrene. 100v max, so I need to babysit this circuit. But you can't beat that for low leakage. I'm using an electrometer circuit designed by Rich Hull to sense voltage. No black helicopters yet, Bruce. Right now the only person to show any interest was my sleepy girlfriend. I can handle her if she tries to suppress me ( I think... gulp ). By the way, I don't think this has anything to do with the Tesla patent referenced above. His patent was for a radiant energy receiver. Let's change the header, eh? K. -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger [mailto:fstenger@suite224.net] Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 4:53 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Maybe we're going at this the wrong way, Frank. > > If the roof is completely insulated, on the bottom > by the roof structure and on the top with a layer of insulating paint, at ~ 3 meters > height it still should go up to the ~ 600 volt Fair Weather Field potential wrt Earth > Ground. > > Doesn't this mean that a large capacitor with one side connected to ground will have > the 600 volt potential > applied to it, and thus since it's "stored" energy will be > 1/2 CV^2 and "charge" Q = CV? > > Now then, you should be able to dump the capacitor through a load, and thus keep > "milking" energy out of the atmosphere. :-) Maybe we should just use the 1000 ft^2 of the roof as the only capacitor? One way or another, we need to "condition" the energy so we can store it in a battery at a usable voltage. Maybe we need a smart converter with a high-voltage transformer input. When the converter sensed that the roof voltage was high enough, it could charge the "primary" of the transformer by putting it in series with the roof to ground. The converter would sense peak current in the transformer - which we would pick to have enough inductance to store "one roof charge" - and open the primary-to-ground leg. Then, the converter could condition the secondary pulse to suit our storage battery needs. On another tact altogether, I wonder if there is a size of wind turbine that would make it practical to actually "fly" the thing like an autogyro? Build the thing with twin (or more) contra-rotating autogyro rotors and fly it from a short tower when the wind was up. This way, we could fly the rotors up to a real go-get-em wind altitude and pipe the output from the alternators down the tether line. The tower would need a 1st class servo winch to bring the rotors down if the wind failed. We could use a smart PC to control the winch so we could bring the rotors down in a dead calm. Hey, it we could get this thing up into the jet stream...!!! We could catch a few 777s on a good day! You could fly this over that near-by Wal-Mart, Fred - if the store wouldn't take your returns, you could threaten to buzz their store and clear off all the roof-mounted equipment. :-) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 20:50:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA13853; Sun, 27 May 2001 20:49:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:49:29 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: The free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:48:53 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <04f801c0e6db$ee95e0c0$9731b43f@computer> <3B11690F.635FE33C@suite224.net> <050801c0e6f6$344738c0$9731b43f@computer> In-Reply-To: <050801c0e6f6$344738c0$9731b43f@computer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA13814 Resent-Message-ID: <"3yCAB1.0.IO3.9hS4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42878 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sun, 27 May 2001 16:44:15 -0500: [snip] >I think you are missing the point, Frank. > >The roof acts as a means to establish the Potential on the >plus side of the capacitor,and the Earth Ground sets the negative side, ie., the Fair >Weather Field Potential that may be due to the Charge difference between the Sun (Q1) >and the Earth Q2. > >Since the stored energy w = 1/2 CV^2 if you use a 10,000 microfarad capacitor and get >a potential of 600 volts on it off the roof: w = 0.5 *0.01* 600^2 = 1800 watts at one >charge cycle/second. If you could draw off that much power, you'de get a shock every time you touched the roof, and Aluminum ladders wouldn't be very popular ;). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 21:03:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA17314; Sun, 27 May 2001 21:01:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:01:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3B11CDA8.EDBD0D@suite224.net> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 00:01:44 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: knagel@gis.net CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Barn roof free energy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uQ85C1.0.QE4.psS4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42879 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Keith wrote: (snip) I disagree with Fred, Well, that's normal. :-) (just kidding, Fred) > you'd do better to have the isolated plate uninsulated, but I used to work > with aluminum plate which had an oxide coating and it > still worked fine (roofing material). At the voltages being considered it's > not really going to matter, especially with things getting > wet and all. My barn roof now has two applications of aluminized roofing topcoat, so, I don't know what effect that will have. BTW, don't you guys hold your breath waiting for me to check my barn roof voltage - we're still under that stationary low and it's too wet to do anything. Also, I want to spend time on my new vacuum system - now in the early stages of buildup. Drive that ground rod, and have at it. > Wish I was out there to help. Once the weather dries out, it should be easy to get some first data. Hey, if this works out, maybe I can use this to trickle charge my tractor battery. I have no power to my barn and it's about 700 ft. from my home wiring. > No black helicopters yet, Bruce. Right now the only person > to show any interest was my sleepy girlfriend. I can handle > her if she tries to suppress me ( I think... gulp ). Hmmmm... this post is getting R-rated, at least! :-) > > By the way, I don't think this has anything to do with > the Tesla patent referenced above. His patent was for > a radiant energy receiver. Let's change the header, eh? OK, how's mine above? Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 27 21:32:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA26524; Sun, 27 May 2001 21:30:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:30:36 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 00:36:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3B11CDA8.EDBD0D@suite224.net> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"l5tgq.0.KU6.hHT4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42880 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Frank. Yes, you could use it to trickle charge a battery, would driving around the north 40 in a tractor beat "you will be lucky to pick up enough electrical energy that way to heat a cup of coffee." ??????????????????????????? Title change is fine. Things really take off when the weathers bad, I'm not sure why you want it to dry out. The ambient power in dry weather is usually pretty meagre, sure the voltages are high but no real current. On the other hand, I've never had such a nice location to do this experiment as you, so should prove interesting to see what you can get when things are fair as well as foul. K. PS: What's up with the vacuum system? -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger [mailto:fstenger@suite224.net] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:02 AM To: knagel@gis.net Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Barn roof free energy Keith wrote: (snip) I disagree with Fred, Well, that's normal. :-) (just kidding, Fred) > you'd do better to have the isolated plate uninsulated, but I used to work > with aluminum plate which had an oxide coating and it > still worked fine (roofing material). At the voltages being considered it's > not really going to matter, especially with things getting > wet and all. My barn roof now has two applications of aluminized roofing topcoat, so, I don't know what effect that will have. BTW, don't you guys hold your breath waiting for me to check my barn roof voltage - we're still under that stationary low and it's too wet to do anything. Also, I want to spend time on my new vacuum system - now in the early stages of buildup. Drive that ground rod, and have at it. > Wish I was out there to help. Once the weather dries out, it should be easy to get some first data. Hey, if this works out, maybe I can use this to trickle charge my tractor battery. I have no power to my barn and it's about 700 ft. from my home wiring. > No black helicopters yet, Bruce. Right now the only person > to show any interest was my sleepy girlfriend. I can handle > her if she tries to suppress me ( I think... gulp ). Hmmmm... this post is getting R-rated, at least! :-) > > By the way, I don't think this has anything to do with > the Tesla patent referenced above. His patent was for > a radiant energy receiver. Let's change the header, eh? OK, how's mine above? Frank From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 02:57:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA27893; Mon, 28 May 2001 02:57:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 02:57:01 -0700 Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 06:03:31 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Keith Nagel cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Barn coffec vacuum roof free energy cup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"056yg.0.lp6.j3Y4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42881 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 28 May 2001, Keith Nagel wrote: > Hi Frank. > > Yes, you could use it to trickle charge a battery, would driving > around the north 40 in a tractor beat > > "you will be lucky to pick up enough electrical > energy that way to heat a cup of coffee." > > ??????????????????????????? > > Title change is fine. > > Things really take off when the weathers > bad, I'm not sure why you want it to dry out. > The ambient power in dry weather is usually pretty > meagre, sure the voltages are high but no real current. > > On the other hand, I've never had such a nice location > to do this experiment as you, so should prove interesting > to see what you can get when things are fair as well as foul. > > K. > > PS: What's up with the vacuum system? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Francis J. Stenger [mailto:fstenger@suite224.net] > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:02 AM > To: knagel@gis.net > Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Barn roof free energy > > > > > Keith wrote: > > (snip) > > I disagree with Fred, > > Well, that's normal. :-) (just kidding, Fred) > > > you'd do better to have the isolated plate uninsulated, but I used to work > > with aluminum plate which had an oxide coating and it > > still worked fine (roofing material). At the voltages being considered > it's > > not really going to matter, especially with things getting > > wet and all. > > My barn roof now has two applications of aluminized roofing topcoat, > so, I don't know what effect that will have. > BTW, don't you guys hold your breath waiting for me to check my barn > roof voltage - we're still under that stationary low and it's too > wet to do anything. Also, I want to spend time on my new vacuum > system - now in the early stages of buildup. > > Drive that ground rod, and have at it. > > Wish I was out there to help. > > Once the weather dries out, it should be easy to get some first data. > Hey, if this works out, maybe I can use this to trickle charge my > tractor battery. I have no power to my barn and it's about 700 ft. > from my home wiring. > > > No black helicopters yet, Bruce. Right now the only person > > to show any interest was my sleepy girlfriend. I can handle > > her if she tries to suppress me ( I think... gulp ). > > Hmmmm... this post is getting R-rated, at least! :-) > > > > By the way, I don't think this has anything to do with > > the Tesla patent referenced above. His patent was for > > a radiant energy receiver. Let's change the header, eh? > > OK, how's mine above? > > Frank > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 03:51:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA06601; Mon, 28 May 2001 03:51:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 03:51:02 -0700 Message-ID: <058601c0e75b$66f44aa0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: <3B11CDA8.EDBD0D@suite224.net> Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:47:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"BYVLo3.0.zc1.LsY4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42882 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francis J. Stenger" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 11:01 PM Subject: Barn roof free energy Frank wrote: > > Keith wrote: > > (snip) > > I disagree with Fred, > > Well, that's normal. :-) (just kidding, Fred) That's okay, Frank. Since you're a Gentleman Farmer "out-standing" in your field, because you have lots of free gas? > > > you'd do better to have the isolated plate uninsulated, but I used to work > > with aluminum plate which had an oxide coating and it > > still worked fine (roofing material). At the voltages being considered it's > > not really going to matter, especially with things getting > > wet and all. > > My barn roof now has two applications of aluminized roofing topcoat, > so, I don't know what effect that will have. > BTW, don't you guys hold your breath waiting for me to check my barn > roof voltage - we're still under that stationary low and it's too > wet to do anything. Also, I want to spend time on my new vacuum > system - now in the early stages of buildup. > > Drive that ground rod, and have at it. > > Wish I was out there to help. > > Once the weather dries out, it should be easy to get some first data. > Hey, if this works out, maybe I can use this to trickle charge my > tractor battery. I have no power to my barn and it's about 700 ft. > from my home wiring. > > > No black helicopters yet, Bruce. Right now the only person > > to show any interest was my sleepy girlfriend. I can handle > > her if she tries to suppress me ( I think... gulp ). > > Hmmmm... this post is getting R-rated, at least! :-) > > > > By the way, I don't think this has anything to do with > > the Tesla patent referenced above. His patent was for > > a radiant energy receiver. Let's change the header, eh? I don't think Tesla knew where the energy was coming from, or what it's nature was. The ~ 300,000 potential between Earth Ground and the Ionosphere exists because of the Solar Insolation of Radiant Energy and the Electron Flux thrown off the Sun that has been building up on the Earth as "Static Electricity" for Billions of Years. The "Electron Affinity" of O2 and H2O, and soil sequester the free/surplus electrons and give rise to the "Fair Weather Field" that exists between the Earth (Q-)and the Ionosphere (Q+) and the Sun still keeps this Engine going. Thus the atmospheric electrical effects. > > OK, how's mine above? Good. With all that rain, you can put gutters on it and harness the "Barn roof free energy" as hydropower. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Frank > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 04:57:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA22223; Mon, 28 May 2001 04:57:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 04:57:14 -0700 Message-ID: <05b601c0e764$a6410a00$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 05:54:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"TIwOy2.0.9R5.PqZ4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42883 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Let's see. The daily Solar insolation that keeps the Earth/Ionosphere Electrical Engine going is 12,000 Quads (1 Quad is 10^15 BTU). The world's daily energy production and use is ~ 1.0 Quad/day. Frank's barn roof is setting in a fair weather potential "well" of ~ 600 volts wrt Earth Ground. The roof capacitance (Cr) between the roof and Earth Ground is k*8.5E-12*area/height (farads). There most energy attainable based on that is: w = 1/2*Cr*V^2 and charge Q = Cr*V. Not enough to heat a cup of coffee day or night. OTOH, based on the fact that the potential on the plates of a high dielectric/low leakage capacitor aligns each of the molecules in the dielectric, thus storing the energy due to the Potential of the Fair Weather Field at a given height of the roof on Frank's barn. IOW, the Solar-Ionosphere Electrical Engine (SIEE) is a veritable reservoir of Infinite Energy, IF we can convince Frank to hook that humongous Capacitor Bank that he has been sitting on, between the roof and a good ground, using an insulated-shielded cable so that the FWF potential gets to the high side of the capacitor bank. Then dumping the capacitor bank to ground through a 1.0 ohm resistance with a RC time constant around 0.01 seconds should make some heat and sparks??? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 05:42:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA02293; Mon, 28 May 2001 05:42:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 05:42:15 -0700 From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 08:45:54 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" References: <05b601c0e764$a6410a00$9731b43f@computer> In-Reply-To: <05b601c0e764$a6410a00$9731b43f@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01052808455400.12349@linux> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA02095 Resent-Message-ID: <"zCyeO.0.fZ.dUa4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42884 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On Monday 28 May 2001 03:54, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Let's see. The daily Solar insolation that keeps the Earth/Ionosphere Electrical > Engine going is 12,000 Quads > (1 Quad is 10^15 BTU). > > The world's daily energy production and use is ~ 1.0 Quad/day. > > Frank's barn roof is setting in a fair weather potential "well" of ~ 600 volts wrt > Earth Ground. > > The roof capacitance (Cr) between the roof and Earth Ground is k*8.5E-12*area/height > (farads). > There most energy attainable based on that is: > > w = 1/2*Cr*V^2 and charge Q = Cr*V. Not enough to heat a cup of coffee day or night. > > OTOH, based on the fact that the potential on the plates of a high dielectric/low > leakage capacitor aligns each of the molecules in the dielectric, thus storing the > energy due to the Potential of the Fair Weather Field at a given height of the roof on > Frank's barn. > > IOW, the Solar-Ionosphere Electrical Engine (SIEE) is a veritable reservoir of > Infinite Energy, IF we can convince Frank to hook that humongous Capacitor Bank that > he has been sitting on, between the roof and a good ground, using an > insulated-shielded cable so that the FWF potential gets to the high side of the > capacitor bank. > > Then dumping the capacitor bank to ground through a 1.0 ohm resistance with a RC time > constant around 0.01 seconds should make some heat and sparks??? :-) > > Regards, Frederick There is a company somewhere, maybe Detroit, Michigan, that makes amorphous photovoltaic cells. Use 'em for roofing that barn and take care of all your energy needs. You'll need some old car and tractor batteries for a reservoir/buffer, and an inverter for 110 and 240 volt sources to power all your loads. If you live in Michigan, you can force the power company to buy your excess power. It's called the co-generation laws. You will need some other stuff too: control circuitry, wiring, etc. The only hassle will be snow on your roof in the winter. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 06:14:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA09521; Mon, 28 May 2001 06:13:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 06:13:26 -0700 Message-ID: <05cd01c0e76f$4b1494c0$9731b43f@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: <05b601c0e764$a6410a00$9731b43f@computer> <01052808455400.12349@linux> Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 07:11:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"-P3z_.0.hK2.sxa4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42885 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" To: Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 10:45 AM Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy You are referring to Stan Ovshinsky's company, Energy Conversion Devices, in Troy, Michigan I take it. Lots of practical, large area amorphous silicon photovoltaics on the market some are running at 10% conversion efficiency. Very practical for roof installations. When you see all of those roof-tops in urban sprawl,when you are flying into O'Hare, it makes you wonder. :-) Frederick > On Monday 28 May 2001 03:54, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Let's see. The daily Solar insolation that keeps the Earth/Ionosphere > Electrical > > Engine going is 12,000 Quads > > (1 Quad is 10^15 BTU). > > > > The world's daily energy production and use is ~ 1.0 Quad/day. > > > > Frank's barn roof is setting in a fair weather potential "well" of ~ 600 > volts wrt > > Earth Ground. > > > > The roof capacitance (Cr) between the roof and Earth Ground is > k*8.5E-12*area/height > > (farads). > > There most energy attainable based on that is: > > > > w = 1/2*Cr*V^2 and charge Q = Cr*V. Not enough to heat a cup of coffee day > or night. > > > > OTOH, based on the fact that the potential on the plates of a high > dielectric/low > > leakage capacitor aligns each of the molecules in the dielectric, thus > storing the > > energy due to the Potential of the Fair Weather Field at a given height of > the roof on > > Frank's barn. > > > > IOW, the Solar-Ionosphere Electrical Engine (SIEE) is a veritable reservoir > of > > Infinite Energy, IF we can convince Frank to hook that humongous Capacitor > Bank that > > he has been sitting on, between the roof and a good ground, using an > > insulated-shielded cable so that the FWF potential gets to the high side of > the > > capacitor bank. > > > > Then dumping the capacitor bank to ground through a 1.0 ohm resistance with > a RC time > > constant around 0.01 seconds should make some heat and sparks??? :-) > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > There is a company somewhere, maybe Detroit, Michigan, that makes > amorphous photovoltaic cells. Use 'em for roofing that barn and take > care of all your energy needs. You'll need some old car and tractor > batteries for a reservoir/buffer, and an inverter for 110 and 240 volt > sources to power all your loads. If you live in Michigan, you can > force the power company to buy your excess power. It's called the > co-generation laws. You will need some other stuff too: control > circuitry, wiring, etc. > The only hassle will be snow on your roof in the winter. > > Standing Bear > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 06:37:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA14930; Mon, 28 May 2001 06:36:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 06:36:37 -0700 Message-ID: <01b201c0e77b$0cc8be10$62584118@CRQ> From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <05b601c0e764$a6410a00$9731b43f@computer> Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 09:35:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"6z6Hs1.0.Cf3.aHb4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42886 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before or if it's exactly on topic. I've been off Vortex for a couple of weeks. A series of very fine tungsten wires or needle points will discharge ions more easily than a flat metal surface. Not much current will flow of course, until the wind blows. Radioactive paint on those wires would probably increase the current substantially, but I understand that's illegal. Perhaps an appropriately designed array of screens and wires could optimize an ion dispersal and collection process. Or, an ion *wind* generator could be designed by introducing ions with an ion generator into the air "downstream" of a collector, and allowing the wind to transport them. The wind does the work of carrying the ions to the collector, where normally, on a windless day, they would merely be attracted to ground. Colin Quinney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 6:54 AM Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy > Let's see. The daily Solar insolation that keeps the Earth/Ionosphere Electrical > Engine going is 12,000 Quads > (1 Quad is 10^15 BTU). > > The world's daily energy production and use is ~ 1.0 Quad/day. > > Frank's barn roof is setting in a fair weather potential "well" of ~ 600 volts wrt > Earth Ground. > > The roof capacitance (Cr) between the roof and Earth Ground is k*8.5E-12*area/height > (farads). > There most energy attainable based on that is: > > w = 1/2*Cr*V^2 and charge Q = Cr*V. Not enough to heat a cup of coffee day or night. > > OTOH, based on the fact that the potential on the plates of a high dielectric/low > leakage capacitor aligns each of the molecules in the dielectric, thus storing the > energy due to the Potential of the Fair Weather Field at a given height of the roof on > Frank's barn. > > IOW, the Solar-Ionosphere Electrical Engine (SIEE) is a veritable reservoir of > Infinite Energy, IF we can convince Frank to hook that humongous Capacitor Bank that > he has been sitting on, between the roof and a good ground, using an > insulated-shielded cable so that the FWF potential gets to the high side of the > capacitor bank. > > Then dumping the capacitor bank to ground through a 1.0 ohm resistance with a RC time > constant around 0.01 seconds should make some heat and sparks??? :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 07:18:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA23319; Mon, 28 May 2001 07:17:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 07:17:20 -0700 Message-ID: <20010528141717.107.qmail@web4405.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 07:17:17 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris Subject: A n ACTUAL 55 volt Radiant /Magnetic energy Device: Another BRS Application. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: teslafy@yahoogoups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"0wW2Z1.0.Hi5.mtb4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42887 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Concerning this radiant energy thread, here are some quite amazing facts concerning radiant or ambiently derived energy. These are observed from having two large inductors in 60 hz resonance. These are 60 henry air core coils. By connecting the series resonances 180 out of phase to the wall plug, we have created a circuit of resonant voltage rise in both opposite polarities, similar to what is done in our electrical distribution system. The ground is neutral and we have simultaneous delivery of both opposite polarity 120 volt AC signals by a center tapped step down transformer. To access the 240 one connects the load to both opposite sides of the voltage source. Now each of these (60 hz resonant)coils have a q factor of about 15 in real electrical action. It is the q factor that determines the voltage rise with respect to that of the electrical voltage input. Thus at 120 volts application we have simultaneous voltage rises in opposite polarities of 15(120)=1800 Volts or 3600 volts between the midpoints. Thus in some respects we can consider these coils a source of voltage rise similar to that of a transformer, but this is a transformer that raises the voltage by resonance, rather than by ferromagnetic induction. The important difference that can be shown by this resonant transformer is that it works on the inverse principle of an ordinary transformer. See 3 phase Resonant Transformers vs Ferromagnetic http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/3 "this transformer is substantially different in operation as it is inverted to common operation... The (ordinary) transformer can operate with the outside load connections open or empty and consume minimal reactive power. The resonant transformer is exactly the opposite, in that it consumes maximum power with no load connections, and for some load applications such as electrolysis,it is surely necessary to make the voltage input placed to this higher catastrophic value, which only occurs if infinite resistance is seen in the interior wye pathways. Also substantially different in operation is a sort of floating voltage potential that the output load will see(or apply). A load of comparatively small resistance will see a minimal voltage, and a larger resistance a larger voltage. Thus these transformers then accomplish the similar action of a current limited secondary of a NST transformer, that will only supply so much rated current and can be safely shorted on the secondary. An ordinarily transformer becomes the catastophic version if we short its secondary and cause meltdown, it consumes maximum amperage, whereas the resonant transformer consumes its minimal amount of amperage under shorted output condition. Of particular interest is the application towards the input voltages to a many celled electrolysisor derived from the resonant transformer input. The cells arranged in series compared to the cells arranged in parallel will offer the same values of voltage across the cells in both methods with a resonant transformer, whereas a ferromagnetic transformer will offer different values when this is done. The voltage the resonant transformer always gives is the thermoneutral voltage value for most efficient electrolysis. This eliminates the problem found in the ferromagnetic method of making a certain number of cells in series to meet the correct voltage requirement, thus eliminating substantial costings of the electrolysis cell design." Now having established these simple differences let us return to the simple bipolar resonant model. I have called this a Binary Resonant System(BRS). Because the 60 henry coils are 1000 ohms,having 9 miles each of 23 gauge wire: 440 volts can be inputed into the system. What I have shown on my homepage is an example of what can happen when this is done, and the catastrophic consequences of stretching the system to the limit. What happens is that the energy rebounds up the system, seemingly returning the energy send in. This is probably ordinarily refered to as rf kick back. So essentially there is also another very different aspect to the resonant transformer. If we compare the BRS to a center tapped transformer, we understand that the schematic has line symmetry on the secondary side, each different side is a mirror image of the other in respective polarity and also on secondary transformer winding directions: where these are bifilar with respect to each other. The coils of the BRS can also be arranged to increase their voltage output by placing them together in a bifilar fashion, and retuning for the capacities needed to resonate. The become bifilar by the fact that since the magnetic fields are themselves 180 degrees out of phase, turning one coil around in the opposite orientation will put the magnetic fields in phase and the identically wound coils will then appear bifilar with respect to each other, producing magnetic fields in unison. Becuse of the mutual inductance effect of both fields, this raises the q factor for both coils to make a better voltage rise. The important difference between the center tapped transformer and the BRS is that one has line symmetry and the other has point symmetry. If we turn the step up transformer around and run it in reverse, it becomes a step down transformer. In doing this we are simply reversing the input and output connections. But when this is done with the voltage rise shown by the BRS, the analogy stops. The reverse connections yeild the same results, the same exact circuit conditions yeilding a step up of voltage with respect to its input. That is the meaning of the BRS having point symmetry,IT IS THE SAME CIRCUIT FROM THE OUTSIDE IN, AS THE INSIDE OUT. What this seems to imply is that when we create a large voltage discharge from the system, that voltage discharge itself will momentarily act as a source of emf with the circuit working backwards torwards its source. The net result is that another discharge occurs at the source, where it has apparently again gained voltage on the bounce back. If this doesnt border on a free energy pricinple further evidence can show that. That is made by actual meter measurements as will be shown. But for others to see and compare the discharges I have set up a bottom page linked electrical kick back video on my homepage at http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/Homepage.html This is a 33 sec mpeg that may show difficulties in loading. Sometimes only 13 seconds will load on the first play. Shutting down the window and reopening it seems to then display the full 33 seconds where the more spectacular kickback discharges occur. There also appear to be precursor events to the large discharges. Some jpegs of these can be found at files under 1.5 cm needle arc gap and kickbacks at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy Now to try and get to the point of all this is the radiant energy aspect. It was noticed that if one of the potentials of the BRS were hooked to ground, it did some really funny things. In household voltage input it will ordinarily cause a neon bulb to blink at about 12 hz, if one end is connected to a BRS high voltage potential and the other is grounded. Two bulbs from each potential do not want to do this and one will predominate. A smaller 15 watt florescent will not blink but display a steady discharge, and will prevent another neon from the other BRS potential discharging some 50 ft away on its grounded connection.. In some applications of attempting to send high frequency into the earth for gardening applications, it was noticed that an oscilloscope monitoring this earth line by sensor inductor would be completely disabled on the scope trace,(none would appear) on all but the highest voltage setting. In making these connections I was dismayed at receiving shocks, and wondered how that could be since the device was turned off. As it turns out, the way you turn the BRS off has everything to do with getting shocked. Most of us assume that when we have a utility strip having several places to plug devices into, that if it has an on/off switch, turning off that switch will not allow current conduction through those devices connected by plug. Better than relying on memory here on these figures,tonight I have retested them. Actual meter measurements of the BRS show that on turn from wall voltage on it consumes 192 ma. Turning the strip outlet switch to off, the current reads .017 ma on the input lines. Current still exists in the system, this current was measured before turn on so it is not some kind of long lasting delay due to it being a 60 hz resonant circuit. Now shorting the midpoints where a voltage rise would occur, the amp meter then is reduced to .010 ma. Shorting the midpoints of the series resonances, or what is normally the high voltage sources from the circuit, turns the entire circuit from being series resonant to being parallel resonant with a resonant rise of amperage within the circuit. The Q of the BRS in tank condition is reduced to 10. The normal amperage figures for wall voltage input are .25 ma input and 10 times this value or 2.5 ma across the midpoint path. Measuring the midpoint amperage with the outlet strip turned off shows .068 ma. Measuring the open circuit voltage of that path shows .285 volts. Now completely pulling the plug from the outlet strip will normally make all these amperage figures go to zero. This must be done while internally working on the circuit, or one will feel these small shocks. In fact there is even a visible arc formed by touching the midpoint potential to a ground rod, with the circuit connected to the off position on the outlet strip which is why the plug must be fully separated from that connection, when working with the bare wire components. So as far on working on this principle I decided to give up on it, since an open circuit voltage can be made, but no amperage derived from it.That was until tonights test. The fact that amperages do seem to come from the closed switch probably has to do with the fact that the circuit is somehow being capacitively coupled to ground since one side of our household electrical delivery is grounded. Pulling the plug on the midpoint voltage measurements will reduce the .285 volts to .22 volts. This side of the circuit has copper bars attached to it so more free electrons for oscillation are available from its surface areas. Since the BRS is the same thing when it is inverted, one can also measure a continuous .14 volts from the plug itself. The unusual thing here is that normally mesuring the amperage from the plug is zero, even though the voltage will be measured. However tonights test shows a this to be possible from the actual midpoints where the bars are attached. Pulling the plug will still show a conduction of .028 ma, down from .068 ma. Placing ones finger across the input plug will reduce this to .014 ma. Thus in any case without anything coupled to ground the BRS takes in ~(.014)(.22)= .003 watts from the ambient environment. Curiosity getting the best of me I just ran in to retest conditions at the actual input plug. As it turns out the system will produce amperage, provided the midpoint path is open. At open midpoint path the plug reads .189 volts and .014 ma amperage when the meter is selected to amperage. Shorting the midpoint pathe the meter reads .31 volts across the plug and then zero amperage. These readings can vary tremendously as to the time of day and as the sun is coming up, the conditions change dramatically. The .014 ma measurement has gone done to about .004 ma from 5 to 5:30 AM. Nightime may give better measurements, in line with the cosmic ray hypothesis. Now these are very small measurements of no consequence however the principle seems to have been increased by the use of magnets. What was done here was to allow three 4 by 6 by 1 inch ceramic magnets to be connected by surface area plate to one of the high voltage potentials of the BRS. The other potential is connected by needle to water surface, and then glass as the midpoint connection. This is the Binary Resonant Magnetic Amplifier shown at http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/mag.html As is shown, a single layer of speaker winds around this three inch magnet stack when placed in conjunction with a proper large dual capacitive plate arrangement in 4 ft of space will be an LC resonant combination that the MWO plate on the top surface of the magnet delivers to the magnet. By finding this a good LC combination we can conclude that the process is causing the magnet to naturally resonate at some 1.5 million hz, where the LC combination being resonant to that frequency will enable the shown disharge of two 20 inch neons. MWO or Lakhovkies description of Multiple Wave Oscillations to the BRS was incorrectly attributed by the following fact: That the high induction coils can be put into an arcgap midpoint connection,as shown in the video and vastly slowed down in time by the 1.5 cm arc gap distance, which induces the coils into high frequency. But every coil that we put into the magnetic field sensor to determine what that frequency is(during much faster 60 BPS arcing) will display a different result. The actual result is that the high induction coil process makes the sensor coils themselves ring at their own respective natural resonant frequency, generally determined by the length of the wire and geometry of the sensing inductor. We cannot easily determine or measure what that actual natural resonant frequency of oscillation is on the high induction coils themselves, but using the quarter wavelength consideration, when the arc occurs, 9 miles of wire exist on both sides of the arc to produce this electrical standing wave, so At 186,000 miles per second the electrical reverse conduction,(which is what occurs in a series/parallel resonant switching that this arc creates) would allow for the backfire to arrive 9/186,000 seconds later on both coil endings. Now this time period where we assume the impulse to be returning at the speed of light we are given, that only represents 1/4 of the whole wave of the standing wave that appears. To determine the frequency of this standing wave we multiply that time period by 4, and take the inverse to find a frequency of 5166 hz in this instance. Now it is also known that since large interwinding capacity exists and also a large inductance, this inhibits the standing wave to a considerable degree. MWO measurements show A typical Radio Shack 22 gauge 100 ft coil has its quarter wavelength value reduced 5 fold from what the length of wire by calculations would show. It stands to reason that since the speed of light itself is inhibited by some mediums, that the medium of the self created magnetic field this electrical impulse might create existing on a large inductance is itself correspondingly slowed down in time. Given the fact that the Radio Shack coils may only have several hundreds of adjacent windings, where a 5 fold reduction in natural resonant frequency is observed, comparing this to the 20,000 some winds on the 9 mile coils, one cannot begin to estimate the actual reduction of the time period for the true reflection to appear back at its source, but as the kickback video shows, this may actually only be a fraction of a second or so. In that case scenario the electrical standing wave being created may actually be a slower propagation impulse then the actual frequency impulse that excited it, and not a shorter time period than the actual source frequency being used to create it! In any case we have something that has such a low natural resonant frequency that it cannot be easily measured, but it will make everything else around it, including the human body to ring at its own natural resonant frequency, which can also be interpreted as a much higher harmonic of the unknowable true vibration. In fact during high BPS(burst per second) applications the reverse impulse may not have the time period to naturally reach its source before another burst appears, thus eliminating the backfire effect. In any case to end this long posting, the currents derived from the magnet being stimulated have special qualities, in fact those currents are the best used for body treatment and electrohorticulture and ozonation(with no visible arcing, only neon discharge!) Plants exposed to a 30 by 40 inch plate will become electrostatically attracted to the human body at a 200 volt input, which delivers a mild high frequency shock. At one point in experimentation a primitive water cell and the meter measured voltage drop across the cell was put into magnet winding circuit. Seeing the meter malfunctioning I went to examine it, and getting quite a good skin effect shock from the plastic casing of the meter. This should not happen. Also examination of the EM emmited by these magnetic circuit bulbs show that more high frequency ringdowns than that time period will allow can occur, where these form a summation pattern that shows a quantum like appearance. In this process as we turn up the sweep rate to examine the no of rf bursts per cycle, the different sweep rates reveal different information as to this true no, because this is obscurred by summation at the ordinary source frequency 2ms/div sweep rate, where these no of RF burst /cycle are ordinarily viewable as shown on the mag webpage.(At the higher input voltages the no of rf bursts/cycle are not decipherable at that sweep rate) Also the voltage selection showing the amplitude of these signals. What happens is that in viewing a many traced signal at the higher frequency sweep rate selection, where we conclude that each of these traces are one of the rf bursts on the cycle, when we turn the voltage selection range down, instead of the amplitudes of the signals being increased as should occur we get many more scope traces than the previous selection gave, but at the same voltage amplitude! In this way I have made many jpegs showing multitraced scoped forms at high sweep rates, as it truly becomes an heisenberg gig where the instrument recieving that information will recieve that information in different forms depending how it looks at it. But again to get to the remarkable end of the story here, the discovery became that of the fact that the BRMA itself functions as a sort of radiant energy device. This has not even been remotely explored if someone can recomend a better collection circuit, where I have already suggested one to try at this conclusion. Now this is a real circuit that appears to deliver 55 volts between the bottom plate of the air capacity which is a 30 by 40 inch aluminum foil on plastic supports 1 ft above ground. This is the amount of voltage that can only be measured with nothing turned on. It is not measured with the switch turned on because that is the voltage that already been shown to light 20 inch neons and would surely ping the 750 volt max AC ratings on the meter. Now again, without anything being turned on, one can remove the top needle/ water connection and the voltage is then reduced to 5 volts, so both polarities are required for the process. When the plug is completely removed from the outlet this potential that appears is fully reduced to .5 volts( where these have mostly all been low scale rms AC voltage and amperage scale readings and measurements.) My conclusion is that something is missing here in the equation, one ought to be able to make the circuit produce the 55 volts without resorting to the plug in of a switch turned in the off position! Perhaps the aluminum siding of the house would be a better top plate connection, or perhaps a direct ground connection will provide for this. Now another initially discouraging measurement was found again in the corresponding amperage measurement between the magnet winding coil and the capacity plate which again shows zero amps. But this is not remarkable at all. Only one side of that capacity was used to make these measurements. This implies the system might be improved so I decided to try this... Alas, connecting the top plate 4 ft above as the completion of LC circuit reduced the voltage measurement to 38 volts. Perhaps an extra 30 some volts then also exists between the other end of the magnetic winding and its identical sized top plate? Nevertheless this seems to be a possible correct approach, and I will try this and report back if the results are of any significance. As I have mentioned the fact that no amperage flow can be found by meter, this is not remarkable at all. We assume that the frequency that must be occuring itself is 60 hz, since it is coming off a set of windings from a magnet which is surface area contacted to a 60 hz resonant circuit. Given the stated 80 pf or so as the C value, the amount of capacitive reactance current existing at 55 volts/60 hz AC would be miniscule to begin with. But it might be worth the effort to try and make a DC collection circuit. I will put the circuit back to 55 volts using only the bottom capacitive plate and one end of the magnet winding. I will then scrouge up a diode system, hooking two of the corners at the radiant voltage source being measured by meter. A fast 250 ns diode assembly is available. I should be able to connect the diode output to another capacitor and see if this can charge that capacitor! A concurrent DC voltage meter measurement on that storage capacitor should indicate whether the system is charging! These exciting measurements and concurrent postings have kept me up all night, but I hope to immediately try this and post back... Sincerely Enthusiastical HDN ===== Binary Resonant System http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 08:07:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA09394; Mon, 28 May 2001 08:07:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 08:07:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3B1286FE.2DCD@bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:12:30 -0700 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Physical scientific method & RV References: <3B1171E0.E5077A1A@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4fBPG2.0.dI2.icc4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42888 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hoyt Stearns Jr. wrote: > Why do you think this type of plot is seemingly > becoming more prevalent? > Is mass consciousness getting an inkling of how things > really work? It's a reawakening of the religion of Gnosis. See: http://www.enemies.com/index2.html or http://www.gnosis.org/ Regards, Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 10:48:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01167; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:47:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:47:09 -0700 Message-ID: <20010528174704.28182.qmail@web4406.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:47:04 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris Subject: Radiant/Magnetic Device Only shows.000032 watts extraction. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"76jVf1.0.9I.Sye4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42889 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Guess thats why this stuff must be useless. In any case here are some notes concerning this testing. Semi- Success on TEC's Radiant Energy Tests. I have mentioned (on vortex) the conceptual difficulties involved here where the device cannot be strictly considered an ambient energy device, since it must be actually plugged into a strip outlet, but where the the on/off switch on the outlet is in the off position. The 60 hz resonant circuit / magnet winding- capacitively coupled ground plate,(30 by 40 inches 1 ft above ground or so.) will show a ~54.7 volt AC signal between a winding end and the plate, again with the switch in the off position. It was futhermore noted that the setup included a direct water aluminum foil connection as pictured on http://www.egroups.com/group/teslafy This is not the configuration used in the BRMA which uses a displacement current only midpoint path, with a water/glass miniscule capacity as the midpoint current path of the resonant transformer. The total amount of resonant input voltage then remains high, causing that very small charge time of the water /glass capacity to make multiple rf ringdowns on the input frequency cycle. Seeing that the circuit was not as I described it I took the foil out of the water, whereupon the voltage reading dropped to 15 volts. Reinserting the foil into water by finger resumed the circuit to 55 volts and delivered a shocking sensation. The first try with 250 ns diodes produced no results, due to the fact that they were 5000 volt rated and would not trigger conductivity at this low 55 volt level. The next test was hower successful to charge a cap, via rectification using ordinary 6 Amp rated power diodes. A 4 uf capacitor was selected for the DC storage capacitor. Severing of the plate connection where the system is then connected only to a small amount of (insulated)ground wire path was seen to reduce the voltage to 34 volts. At the 55 volt plate connection circumstances, the hooking of one side of the diode system for input yeilded a voltage drop to 44 volts measured as the AC potential difference between the plate and magnet winding. The 4 uf cap was then placed on the output diode side for charging, and simultaneous DC voltage monitoring. When this is initially done with the uncharged cap the voltage across the 44 volts being measured falls approximately 10 times to 4 volts and begins to rapidly climb in voltage about 1 volt/sec. Now a small voltage difference exists between the AC input voltage and the recorded DC voltage stored on the cap. At 30 seconds charge time, the DC cap reads 22 volts. At 60 seconds this has only changed to 25.2 volts. At 75 seconds this has leveled off at 26 volts DC storage, and allows for a measured 24 VAC to still exist as the voltage across the diode system. Thus that charged load must be then removed in order for the Input voltage to resume its semi- diode loaded 44 volts AC. Using the quicker charge time at the 30 second level, let us then compute the wattage of this apparent free energy device. The energy storage of 22 volts on a 4 uf cap is equal to 1/2CV^2 or only 9.68*10^-4 joules. Since this takes 30 seconds this figure is further divided by 30 to determine the average wattage being extracted in 30 seconds of operation. This also turns out to be the astonishing low figure of 3.2*10^-5 watts or only 0.000032 watts. So even though the project shows hopeful results initially, they are wattage wise very dissapointing. The next step should consist of trying the aluminum siding of the house as the plate connection, and much larger capacities for storage. HDN ===== Binary Resonant System http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 12:07:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA28506; Mon, 28 May 2001 12:04:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:04:37 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3B11CDA8.EDBD0D@suite224.net> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:01:35 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Resent-Message-ID: <"CDPyy1.0.Kz6.45g4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42890 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi Frank. > >Yes, you could use it to trickle charge a battery, would driving >around the north 40 in a tractor beat > >"you will be lucky to pick up enough electrical >energy that way to heat a cup of coffee." ***{You are dropping the context again. The above comment was made in response to the post about the supposed "free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla," which was obviously intended to collect RF energy from natural sources via an antenna type of setup. I have made no comments about the "Barn roof free energy" idea. Perhaps I will do so later, time permitting. --MJ}*** > >??????????????????????????? > >Title change is fine. > >Things really take off when the weathers >bad, I'm not sure why you want it to dry out. >The ambient power in dry weather is usually pretty >meagre, sure the voltages are high but no real current. > >On the other hand, I've never had such a nice location >to do this experiment as you, so should prove interesting >to see what you can get when things are fair as well as foul. > >K. > >PS: What's up with the vacuum system? ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 16:16:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA13229; Mon, 28 May 2001 16:15:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 16:15:54 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <03a901c0e633$d0656380$9731b43f@computer> References: <03a901c0e633$d0656380$9731b43f@computer> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:16:03 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Rubber Albatross Problem Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"lRxjn3.0.cE3.fmj4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42891 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com I used to get a burning permit, for brush, of course. I'd burn at night, When I got the fire going good, I'd toss on a tire, or two. They really make the fire cook. That's how I won my environmentalist of the year award. I never had any trouble cutting tires up, I just put a Milwaukee metal cutting bland in the Sawzall and went at it. OTOH, he could pay a tire recycling service. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 17:11:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA29525; Mon, 28 May 2001 17:07:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 17:07:18 -0700 Message-Id: <200105290007.UAA12994@mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Magnet Therapy and Park's Brain Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 19:00:24 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed@pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"1yRfe.0.6D7.rWk4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42892 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com A recent exchange that Vortexians might appreciate. My response to Park's response: Poor Roberto, Bobykins Park, >Poor Gene. He seems to be totally clueless that the therapy described by >Helmuth in Science uses a pulsed magnetic field, and is quite unrelated to >static-field therapy, which only total nuts take seriously. "Only total nuts take seriously..."? Name calling again. I wonder what the difference between a "total nut" and just a "nut" is? Park is utterly confused. On the one hand he distinguishes the possible effects from static fields, from those from a pulsed field (which he may feel might have some value?), but then he has another category -- low frequency sinusoidal fields -- which he deems a priori incapable of causing biological effects. That's Park's main problem, he knows a priori the outcome of all experiments based on what he *knows* can't work and what can. Of course in this theory-driven outlook, he isn't much better than the typical establishment physicist today. That is why Park has confused theory with experiment for over 12 years now, as regards cold fusion, and the experiments of Randell Mills/BlackLight Power. Then we have Little Bobby Park, the sad character,who thinks that he can prove that a magnetic field (static) from a purported therapeutic magnet can be proved NOT to have penetrated a certain thickness of paper, by finding the point at which it slides off his file cabinet after 10 or so sheets have been interposed. Didn't someone in sophomore (high school) physics teach Park about friction and the role of the normal force? Probably not, or he just forgot it. The magnetic field of the therapeutic magnet most certainly does penetrate those sheets, but Park has been stating that it doesn't in that moronic experiment in Voodoo. Let me spell it out for elementary physics-challenged Park: The gravity force on the assemblage overcoming the friction force is the only criterion being investigated by his file cabinet experiment. Field penetration depth is not determined by when the assembly falls off the file cabinet. Even after Park was informed about this (in my advanced review) when Voodoo was in galleys, he still did not correct it! Ditto for the spelling of Randell Mills' name. Then he repeated the misinformation about his cute little magnet/file cabinet experiment in a US News and World Report interview. Is this the best the APS has to offer for its Big Mouth Piece? Probably. Park apparently believes that if he says something enough times, it becomes the truth. Question for Park: In what future edition of Voodoo will that magnet experiment misinformation be corrected? >Indeed, the >pulsed field is meant only to induce an electric current, and is used in >place of electro-shock therapy. I'm afraid the physics here is a bit too >much for Gene. Science is just not one of Park's strong points. He's too much into politics, Op-Eds, and himself. > >bob Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine/New Energy Research Lab Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 www.infinite-energy.com editor@infinite-energy.com Ph: 603-228-4516 Fx: 603-224-5975 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 17:15:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA31430; Mon, 28 May 2001 17:13:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 17:13:01 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 20:18:46 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <05b601c0e764$a6410a00$9731b43f@computer> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"wdq0z1.0.rg7.Dck4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42893 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Fred. You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here. Hooking up a huge cap bank to the roof will do nothing more than drain the charge away. Fair weather potential is not gonna do it, and I speak from direct experience here. The idea is to tap the terrific ambient potential when a storm passes, I think we can all agree that a lightning strike will do a heck of a lot more than boil a cup of coffee. The difference in performance is astounding. Today I'm looking at my piece of twinlead + 100,000pf cap and the potential is less than 10 mv, clear skies and dry. Yesterday, with a storm approaching, potential rose to 6 VOLTS! Bear in mind, this is a pathetic circuit, under the worst possible conditions. When Frank gets a good storm, I've no doubt he'll see some serious energy output. That's when his battery is gonna explode... K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 6:55 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: jlsparber@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Let's see. The daily Solar insolation that keeps the Earth/Ionosphere Electrical Engine going is 12,000 Quads (1 Quad is 10^15 BTU). The world's daily energy production and use is ~ 1.0 Quad/day. Frank's barn roof is setting in a fair weather potential "well" of ~ 600 volts wrt Earth Ground. The roof capacitance (Cr) between the roof and Earth Ground is k*8.5E-12*area/height (farads). There most energy attainable based on that is: w = 1/2*Cr*V^2 and charge Q = Cr*V. Not enough to heat a cup of coffee day or night. OTOH, based on the fact that the potential on the plates of a high dielectric/low leakage capacitor aligns each of the molecules in the dielectric, thus storing the energy due to the Potential of the Fair Weather Field at a given height of the roof on Frank's barn. IOW, the Solar-Ionosphere Electrical Engine (SIEE) is a veritable reservoir of Infinite Energy, IF we can convince Frank to hook that humongous Capacitor Bank that he has been sitting on, between the roof and a good ground, using an insulated-shielded cable so that the FWF potential gets to the high side of the capacitor bank. Then dumping the capacitor bank to ground through a 1.0 ohm resistance with a RC time constant around 0.01 seconds should make some heat and sparks??? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 17:24:56 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA02543; Mon, 28 May 2001 17:23:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 17:23:07 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 20:28:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <01b201c0e77b$0cc8be10$62584118@CRQ> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"RJk-T1.0.fd.glk4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42895 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Colin. Yes, you've got the right idea here. I considered using radioactive paint in this manner also, but as you say it's quite a hazzard. Flame can also create enough ions, but very inefficient. The notion was polonium plated wire. VERY EVIL STUFF. I never did it. How about this idea, one of those Quadra Ionic Breeze devices? Very efficient generator of negative ions. K. -----Original Message----- From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin@home.com] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 9:35 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before or if it's exactly on topic. I've been off Vortex for a couple of weeks. A series of very fine tungsten wires or needle points will discharge ions more easily than a flat metal surface. Not much current will flow of course, until the wind blows. Radioactive paint on those wires would probably increase the current substantially, but I understand that's illegal. Perhaps an appropriately designed array of screens and wires could optimize an ion dispersal and collection process. Or, an ion *wind* generator could be designed by introducing ions with an ion generator into the air "downstream" of a collector, and allowing the wind to transport them. The wind does the work of carrying the ions to the collector, where normally, on a windless day, they would merely be attracted to ground. Colin Quinney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 6:54 AM Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy > Let's see. The daily Solar insolation that keeps the Earth/Ionosphere Electrical > Engine going is 12,000 Quads > (1 Quad is 10^15 BTU). > > The world's daily energy production and use is ~ 1.0 Quad/day. > > Frank's barn roof is setting in a fair weather potential "well" of ~ 600 volts wrt > Earth Ground. > > The roof capacitance (Cr) between the roof and Earth Ground is k*8.5E-12*area/height > (farads). > There most energy attainable based on that is: > > w = 1/2*Cr*V^2 and charge Q = Cr*V. Not enough to heat a cup of coffee day or night. > > OTOH, based on the fact that the potential on the plates of a high dielectric/low > leakage capacitor aligns each of the molecules in the dielectric, thus storing the > energy due to the Potential of the Fair Weather Field at a given height of the roof on > Frank's barn. > > IOW, the Solar-Ionosphere Electrical Engine (SIEE) is a veritable reservoir of > Infinite Energy, IF we can convince Frank to hook that humongous Capacitor Bank that > he has been sitting on, between the roof and a good ground, using an > insulated-shielded cable so that the FWF potential gets to the high side of the > capacitor bank. > > Then dumping the capacitor bank to ground through a 1.0 ohm resistance with a RC time > constant around 0.01 seconds should make some heat and sparks??? :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 17:24:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA02523; Mon, 28 May 2001 17:23:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 17:23:05 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 20:28:50 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"GYTjN.0.Gd.elk4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42894 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Mitch. Obviously intended to collect RF? Not to me. The device being discussed was an elevated capacity with respect to ground. A spark gap was used for commutation. How's that supposed to collect RF? Most hams have taken shocks from ungrounded antennas, do you think that's due to RF? K. -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones@jump.net] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 3:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Keith Nagel wrote: >Hi Frank. > >Yes, you could use it to trickle charge a battery, would driving >around the north 40 in a tractor beat > >"you will be lucky to pick up enough electrical >energy that way to heat a cup of coffee." ***{You are dropping the context again. The above comment was made in response to the post about the supposed "free energy receiver of Nikola Tesla," which was obviously intended to collect RF energy from natural sources via an antenna type of setup. I have made no comments about the "Barn roof free energy" idea. Perhaps I will do so later, time permitting. --MJ}*** > >??????????????????????????? > >Title change is fine. > >Things really take off when the weathers >bad, I'm not sure why you want it to dry out. >The ambient power in dry weather is usually pretty >meagre, sure the voltages are high but no real current. > >On the other hand, I've never had such a nice location >to do this experiment as you, so should prove interesting >to see what you can get when things are fair as well as foul. > >K. > >PS: What's up with the vacuum system? ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 01:52:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA10282; Tue, 29 May 2001 01:51:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 01:51:30 -0700 Message-ID: <001901c0e813$ddc3e740$deb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 02:49:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"-Z6wI3.0.aW2.HCs4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42896 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Keith wrote: > Hi Fred. > > You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here. Naturally. :-) >Hooking up > a huge cap bank to the roof will do nothing more than drain > the charge away. I'm not so sure about that, Keith. The capactance between the Ionosphere (at about 300 Kv potential)and the Earth's surface, or the roof of Frank's little red barn is about 0.25 Farad and the capacitance between the roof of the barn to ground is about 300 pf which would be in parallel with with the capacitor bank. > Fair weather potential is not gonna do it, > and I speak from direct experience here. IOW you haven't tried a Large Capacitance to see what you would get? >The idea is to tap > the terrific ambient potential when a storm passes, I think > we can all agree that a lightning strike will do a heck of > a lot more than boil a cup of coffee. Agreed. But that can be done with a vertical antenna on a pole and Frank can use his roof for drying out his underwear, if it ever stops raining. > The difference in performance > is astounding. I'm not surprised. >Today I'm looking at my piece of twinlead + 100,000pf cap and > the potential is less than 10 mv, clear skies and dry. Yep, and you only read 0.01 volts because of your experimental setup, where you should see 30 to 150 volts or more with the FWF. >Yesterday, > with a storm approaching, potential rose to 6 VOLTS! Why not? > Bear in > mind, this is a pathetic circuit, under the worst possible > conditions. To say the least. :-) > >When Frank gets a good storm, I've no doubt he'll > see some serious energy output. That's when his battery is > gonna explode... And so will his Little Red Barn, and not to mention his wife. :-) Regards, Frederick > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 6:55 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Cc: jlsparber@earthlink.net > Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy > > > Let's see. The daily Solar insolation that keeps the Earth/Ionosphere > Electrical > Engine going is 12,000 Quads > (1 Quad is 10^15 BTU). > > The world's daily energy production and use is ~ 1.0 Quad/day. > > Frank's barn roof is setting in a fair weather potential "well" of ~ 600 > volts wrt > Earth Ground. > > The roof capacitance (Cr) between the roof and Earth Ground is > k*8.5E-12*area/height > (farads). > There most energy attainable based on that is: > > w = 1/2*Cr*V^2 and charge Q = Cr*V. Not enough to heat a cup of coffee day > or night. > > OTOH, based on the fact that the potential on the plates of a high > dielectric/low > leakage capacitor aligns each of the molecules in the dielectric, thus > storing the > energy due to the Potential of the Fair Weather Field at a given height of > the roof on > Frank's barn. > > IOW, the Solar-Ionosphere Electrical Engine (SIEE) is a veritable reservoir > of > Infinite Energy, IF we can convince Frank to hook that humongous Capacitor > Bank that > he has been sitting on, between the roof and a good ground, using an > insulated-shielded cable so that the FWF potential gets to the high side of > the > capacitor bank. > > Then dumping the capacitor bank to ground through a 1.0 ohm resistance with > a RC time > constant around 0.01 seconds should make some heat and sparks??? :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 02:52:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA26535; Tue, 29 May 2001 02:51:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 02:51:56 -0700 Message-ID: <002901c0e81c$4ffd42e0$deb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 03:48:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"2xOVf1.0.XU6.y4t4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42897 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Hi Keith, You might try this if you have access to some older type vacuum triodes without needing to heat the filaments. 6J5 6SF5 2A3 Cgp 16.5 pf Cgk 2.2 pf Cpk 5.5 pf 75 T Cgp 2.3 pf Cgk 2.2 pf Cpk 0.3 pf Hook a D.C. potential between the plate (+) and the cathode (-) (no filament heat) and hook a large capacitor between the grid and the cathode (or plate) and see if the capacitor charges up to the potential determined by the interelectrode capacitances, Cgk and Cgp etc., and how much power is drawn from the power supply as you do this. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 08:24:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26054; Tue, 29 May 2001 08:21:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 08:21:27 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01c0e848$740a5f20$c2181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 07:05:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"K-8bE3.0.wM6.tvx4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42898 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hey Tom I think I might be able to arrange a real black heilocopter raid. Would you like to be present with your camera ? You would have to drive to central Ohio. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, May 26, 2001 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >>thomas malloy wrote: >> >>>. . . In addition to the possibility that Mr. X is liar, consider >>>this. If the invisible government, the IG, is sending it's goon >>>squads to stop him, what chance would any investor or organization >>>have of successfully marketing the product? > >Jed Rothwell replied; > >>I hadn't thought of that. You are right, but it might be fun to try >>to devise a scheme to beat the goon squads. You need an elaborate >>plan in which 100 prototypes are manufactured secretly, out of sight >>of the IG, and placed in cities all around the world for a >>coordinated, simultaneous mass unveiling. It would make a good SF >>story! >> >>For that matter, what don't the goons come this afternoon and take >>away this "latest model." Why do they let him build anything, ever? >>Surely they have wiretaps and cameras. They must see him going to >>Radio Shack for another load of supplies. If he can build one >>"latest model" prototype, there must be a way to outwit them and >>build a hundred. > >To which I replied > >This gives me an idea. Rent some helicopters and paint them in water >based black paint, dress the actors in black and photograph the whole >thing. Or, what a snappy come back that would to the angry investors >who were expecting an O U machine > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 10:48:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21663; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:44:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:44:44 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:50:24 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001901c0e813$ddc3e740$deb4bfa8@computer> Resent-Message-ID: <"5IBlN1.0.JI5.B0-4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42899 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Fred, I should be clearer about my concern regarding hookup of Frank's large cap bank. I presume you're talking about that big bank of electrolytics he has, yes? I have about 1/2 farad of these myself, FYI. I've used caps as collectors in these types of circuits, but the leakage current is a big issue. That big bank is pretty lossy, add to it the equalizing resistor network and you've basically got a big resistor. The charging current from the FWF is very small, it only gets substantial when a thunderstorm approaches. I'm currently using a 100,000pf cap on my toy setup, it's something like 1000x the capacity of the collector. But it's a polystyrene cap, EXTREMELY LOW leakage current. Replacing this with an electrolytic pretty much swamps the circuit with resistance. So, I agree that a large cap CAN be useful in this setup, what I disagree with is that the electrolytic caps being considered would be a good choice. At that rate you might as well use a battery... One might look at the cap as an impedance matching element. But maybe I'm not following your idea here? I assume it's to store the FWF charge over time, and dump it all at once to generate useful power. Maybe you intend something else? You know, thinking along the lines of the electrolytics, how much capacity do you suppose would be required to store the charge from a lightning strike? I seem to remember average charge for a strike in the range of 50C? The reason I'm suggesting the roof type design is SAFETY. Any idea's how you'd interrupt that Amazonian flow of current if your vertical antenna took a direct hit? Ideally you'd want nice glow discharge from the elevated capacity, St. Elmo'm fire. K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 3:49 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: jlsparber@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Keith wrote: > Hi Fred. > > You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here. Naturally. :-) >Hooking up > a huge cap bank to the roof will do nothing more than drain > the charge away. I'm not so sure about that, Keith. The capactance between the Ionosphere (at about 300 Kv potential)and the Earth's surface, or the roof of Frank's little red barn is about 0.25 Farad and the capacitance between the roof of the barn to ground is about 300 pf which would be in parallel with with the capacitor bank. > Fair weather potential is not gonna do it, > and I speak from direct experience here. IOW you haven't tried a Large Capacitance to see what you would get? >The idea is to tap > the terrific ambient potential when a storm passes, I think > we can all agree that a lightning strike will do a heck of > a lot more than boil a cup of coffee. Agreed. But that can be done with a vertical antenna on a pole and Frank can use his roof for drying out his underwear, if it ever stops raining. > The difference in performance > is astounding. I'm not surprised. >Today I'm looking at my piece of twinlead + 100,000pf cap and > the potential is less than 10 mv, clear skies and dry. Yep, and you only read 0.01 volts because of your experimental setup, where you should see 30 to 150 volts or more with the FWF. >Yesterday, > with a storm approaching, potential rose to 6 VOLTS! Why not? > Bear in > mind, this is a pathetic circuit, under the worst possible > conditions. To say the least. :-) > >When Frank gets a good storm, I've no doubt he'll > see some serious energy output. That's when his battery is > gonna explode... And so will his Little Red Barn, and not to mention his wife. :-) Regards, Frederick > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 6:55 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Cc: jlsparber@earthlink.net > Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy > > > Let's see. The daily Solar insolation that keeps the Earth/Ionosphere > Electrical > Engine going is 12,000 Quads > (1 Quad is 10^15 BTU). > > The world's daily energy production and use is ~ 1.0 Quad/day. > > Frank's barn roof is setting in a fair weather potential "well" of ~ 600 > volts wrt > Earth Ground. > > The roof capacitance (Cr) between the roof and Earth Ground is > k*8.5E-12*area/height > (farads). > There most energy attainable based on that is: > > w = 1/2*Cr*V^2 and charge Q = Cr*V. Not enough to heat a cup of coffee day > or night. > > OTOH, based on the fact that the potential on the plates of a high > dielectric/low > leakage capacitor aligns each of the molecules in the dielectric, thus > storing the > energy due to the Potential of the Fair Weather Field at a given height of > the roof on > Frank's barn. > > IOW, the Solar-Ionosphere Electrical Engine (SIEE) is a veritable reservoir > of > Infinite Energy, IF we can convince Frank to hook that humongous Capacitor > Bank that > he has been sitting on, between the roof and a good ground, using an > insulated-shielded cable so that the FWF potential gets to the high side of > the > capacitor bank. > > Then dumping the capacitor bank to ground through a 1.0 ohm resistance with > a RC time > constant around 0.01 seconds should make some heat and sparks??? :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 12:33:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29801; Tue, 29 May 2001 12:26:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 12:26:16 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c0e86a$a5ab0580$5c181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:10:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"4kd4S2.0.QH7.NV_4x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42900 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Jeff; It has been 6 year since I have talked face to face with the inventors who have had active supression experiences. I may have an opportunity in the near future as Toyota is soon paying my way to an EVent in the midwest. Perhaps I will get a more complete story as to what technology was taken and by whom and what his plans are, like moving off shore hopefully perhaps with the aid of a shiekdom country, to get revolutionary free energy products ready for the energy, climate change, planet destruction, economic crunch, which we are getting a taste of now. I just mentioned all these very brief stories to get some feedback of what may be the best approach to get the revolutionary free energy technology onboard for future generations to use, without completely destroying the planet. The first effort is to bring to the public awareness that such technologies exist.(There are several publications out there = www.free-energy.cc and the other one i believe is www.searchforforfreeenergy.com (Also my publication coming up and others like Infinite Energy.) Second perhaps is to come up with a useful practical product. No easy task as you mentioned, as it usually takes years and megabucks to produce a turnkey product. And then the hardest part get it out there on the market without being stomped on.(quietly flood the market with a unique product but need a benevolent backer to make that possible) Might be best to befriend the NWO -Controllong corporate energy transportation cartel and work an alliance if at all possible, or sell some of technology to the Defense Dept. if that is possible as unusual revolutionary technology is slapped with a secercy order. Or as several have sugested give the technology away to all with a mass mailing on th einternet.There are equal technologies out there, that I am aware of ,that have not been harrased to the extent of the black ops. inventor. Those perhaps stand a better chance of development and marketing. Any constructive comments appreciated. Thanks Bruce From: Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, May 26, 2001 3:18 PM Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >Bruce, > >> Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >> >> >> Jeff said: He never reveals his latest model. IE money is needed to >develop final product. > >No Bruce, you said that. I said: > >> >If he never reveals his latest model, he ain't never gonna get no money. > >Then: > >> Bruce Says Your double negative answer implies the he is going to get >money, > >Well, Bruce, it's actually a triple negative. "Ain't never" = "is", leaving >"Is going to get no money." > >Anyway, > >> which he prides himself and recently got enough money to pay off most of >> his $500,000 legal fees in order to keep going. > >These legal fees are likely as mythical as the helicopter raids. Regardless, >Jed has already made the point about what a venture capitalist would need to >see, and so far nothing has been shown. Talk is cheap. Now, if your friend >really has something and really got enough money to pay off his legal bills >and really gets raided, then I will apologize for doubting you just as soon >as I see any proof. And more than that, since I write a science column for >Analog SF, I would even do an article on it. [Analog has a readership of >around 45,000 people, which I think is way more than all of the alternative >science magazines put together, which also have a large readership overlap. >What better way for your friend to reach more people who might be able to >support him?] > >kooistra > > >> >See my discussion with Jed. >> > >> >kooistra >> > >> > >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 14:15:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA09062; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:12:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:12:50 -0700 Message-ID: <006b01c0e87b$69060ec0$deb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , References: Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:10:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"70tzr1.0.RD2.H315x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42901 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:50 PM Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Keith wrote: > > I should be clearer about my concern regarding hookup of Frank's > large cap bank. I presume you're talking about that big bank > of electrolytics he has, yes? I have about 1/2 farad of these > myself, FYI. Yes, but as I stipulated the leakage has to be Extremely Small. Visualize 400 kv applied to a capacitor of about 0.25 Farad in series with the Frank's Barn Roof Capacitance of ~ 300 pf (again too leaky) with the large Capacitance Bank (too leaky also) in parallel with it,tied to Earth Ground. This is a conceptual simulation of the role of the Stratosphere/Ionosphere in charging up the Large Capacitor Bank for utilizing the ~ 1.36 kw/meter^2 Solar Insolation on the Earth. The 2000 ampere current (2000 coulombs/second) current flow to the Stratosphere/Ionosphere completes the Solar-Generated Energy Cycle. > > The charging current from the FWF is > very small, it only gets substantial when a thunderstorm > approaches. It should be, if your setup is lossy. > > I'm currently using a 100,000pf cap on my toy setup, it's > something like 1000x the capacity of the collector. But > it's a polystyrene cap, EXTREMELY LOW leakage current. > Replacing this with an electrolytic pretty much swamps > the circuit with resistance. Agreed. Again a large area (low leakage) might be required. So much for Frank's Little Red Barn Roof. :-) > > But maybe I'm not following your idea here? I assume it's > to store the FWF charge over time, and dump it all at once > to generate useful power. If you picture the 0.25 FARAD Earth-Stratosphere/Ionosphere Capacitance as a large array of smaller capacitors in parallel, dumping some of the estimated 100,000 Coulomb Charge of it over a small (one of the parallel elements)area would be peanuts, but you could get megawatts. Perhaps this is what Tesla was getting at with his "Free Energy Receiver", although the Heavyside Layer and Atmospheric Electricity was little understood (and still isn't) when he patented the device a Century ago. > > You know, thinking along the lines of the electrolytics, > how much capacity do you suppose would be required to > store the charge from a lightning strike? I seem to remember > average charge for a strike in the range of 50C? Never say never but I don't think storing a 200,000 ampere strike is doable. :-) > > The reason I'm suggesting the roof type design is SAFETY. > Any idea's how you'd interrupt that Amazonian flow of > current if your vertical antenna took a direct hit? Spark gaps and Lightning Arrestors? :-) > > Ideally you'd want nice glow discharge from the elevated > capacity, St. Elmo'm fire. Or Ball Lightning? Regards, Frederick > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 3:49 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Cc: jlsparber@earthlink.net > Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keith Nagel" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 7:18 PM > Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy > > Keith wrote: > > > > Hi Fred. > > > > You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here. > > Naturally. :-) > > >Hooking up > > a huge cap bank to the roof will do nothing more than drain > > the charge away. > > I'm not so sure about that, Keith. The capactance between the > Ionosphere (at about 300 Kv potential)and the Earth's surface, or the roof > of > Frank's little red barn is about 0.25 Farad and the capacitance between > the roof of the barn to ground is about 300 pf which would be in parallel > with > with the capacitor bank. > > > > Fair weather potential is not gonna do it, > > and I speak from direct experience here. > > IOW you haven't tried a Large Capacitance to see what you would get? > > >The idea is to tap > > the terrific ambient potential when a storm passes, I think > > we can all agree that a lightning strike will do a heck of > > a lot more than boil a cup of coffee. > > Agreed. But that can be done with a vertical antenna on a pole and Frank > can use his roof for drying out his underwear, if it ever stops raining. > > > The difference in performance > > is astounding. > > I'm not surprised. > > >Today I'm looking at my piece of twinlead + 100,000pf cap and > > the potential is less than 10 mv, clear skies and dry. > > Yep, and you only read 0.01 volts because of your experimental setup, > where you should see 30 to 150 volts or more with the FWF. > > > >Yesterday, > > with a storm approaching, potential rose to 6 VOLTS! > > Why not? > > > Bear in > > mind, this is a pathetic circuit, under the worst possible > > conditions. > > To say the least. :-) > > > >When Frank gets a good storm, I've no doubt he'll > > see some serious energy output. That's when his battery is > > gonna explode... > > And so will his Little Red Barn, and not to mention his wife. :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > > K. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 6:55 AM > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Cc: jlsparber@earthlink.net > > Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy > > > > > > Let's see. The daily Solar insolation that keeps the Earth/Ionosphere > > Electrical > > Engine going is 12,000 Quads > > (1 Quad is 10^15 BTU). > > > > The world's daily energy production and use is ~ 1.0 Quad/day. > > > > Frank's barn roof is setting in a fair weather potential "well" of ~ 600 > > volts wrt > > Earth Ground. > > > > The roof capacitance (Cr) between the roof and Earth Ground is > > k*8.5E-12*area/height > > (farads). > > There most energy attainable based on that is: > > > > w = 1/2*Cr*V^2 and charge Q = Cr*V. Not enough to heat a cup of coffee day > > or night. > > > > OTOH, based on the fact that the potential on the plates of a high > > dielectric/low > > leakage capacitor aligns each of the molecules in the dielectric, thus > > storing the > > energy due to the Potential of the Fair Weather Field at a given height of > > the roof on > > Frank's barn. > > > > IOW, the Solar-Ionosphere Electrical Engine (SIEE) is a veritable > reservoir > > of > > Infinite Energy, IF we can convince Frank to hook that humongous Capacitor > > Bank that > > he has been sitting on, between the roof and a good ground, using an > > insulated-shielded cable so that the FWF potential gets to the high side > of > > the > > capacitor bank. > > > > Then dumping the capacitor bank to ground through a 1.0 ohm resistance > with > > a RC time > > constant around 0.01 seconds should make some heat and sparks??? :-) > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 15:07:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA26095; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:57:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:57:53 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:03:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <006b01c0e87b$69060ec0$deb4bfa8@computer> Resent-Message-ID: <"Kjtzr1.0.aN6.Xj15x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42902 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Fred. OK, I must have missed your comments about low leakage. I agree with your model, but don't forget the critical part concerning charging current. You should include a high value resistor (Rair) as the charging resistor bridging the hot side of both the earth/ionisphere capacitor and the barn capacitor. If Rair << Rcap all will be well and charge will collect. Unfortunately Rair is rather big when fair weather conditions exist. A big cap will take a long time to charge... The question is, how to decrease Rair or more to the point, get the elevated capacity to equalize with it's environment. Flame and radioactive sources have been used in the past, any new advances here? Sorry if I seem like a broken record, but when I get several orders of magnitude increase in charging current when a storm passes I tend to pay attention to that. Way I see it, it's like Mother Nature has set up a big power supply (as you describe), and has plugs that move around the earth providing fresh water and power. Is that cool of her or what? Why swim against the stream? K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 4:10 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: jlsparber@earthlink.net; Deubedoo@aol.com Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:50 PM Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Keith wrote: > > I should be clearer about my concern regarding hookup of Frank's > large cap bank. I presume you're talking about that big bank > of electrolytics he has, yes? I have about 1/2 farad of these > myself, FYI. Yes, but as I stipulated the leakage has to be Extremely Small. Visualize 400 kv applied to a capacitor of about 0.25 Farad in series with the Frank's Barn Roof Capacitance of ~ 300 pf (again too leaky) with the large Capacitance Bank (too leaky also) in parallel with it,tied to Earth Ground. This is a conceptual simulation of the role of the Stratosphere/Ionosphere in charging up the Large Capacitor Bank for utilizing the ~ 1.36 kw/meter^2 Solar Insolation on the Earth. The 2000 ampere current (2000 coulombs/second) current flow to the Stratosphere/Ionosphere completes the Solar-Generated Energy Cycle. > > The charging current from the FWF is > very small, it only gets substantial when a thunderstorm > approaches. It should be, if your setup is lossy. > > I'm currently using a 100,000pf cap on my toy setup, it's > something like 1000x the capacity of the collector. But > it's a polystyrene cap, EXTREMELY LOW leakage current. > Replacing this with an electrolytic pretty much swamps > the circuit with resistance. Agreed. Again a large area (low leakage) might be required. So much for Frank's Little Red Barn Roof. :-) > > But maybe I'm not following your idea here? I assume it's > to store the FWF charge over time, and dump it all at once > to generate useful power. If you picture the 0.25 FARAD Earth-Stratosphere/Ionosphere Capacitance as a large array of smaller capacitors in parallel, dumping some of the estimated 100,000 Coulomb Charge of it over a small (one of the parallel elements)area would be peanuts, but you could get megawatts. Perhaps this is what Tesla was getting at with his "Free Energy Receiver", although the Heavyside Layer and Atmospheric Electricity was little understood (and still isn't) when he patented the device a Century ago. > > You know, thinking along the lines of the electrolytics, > how much capacity do you suppose would be required to > store the charge from a lightning strike? I seem to remember > average charge for a strike in the range of 50C? Never say never but I don't think storing a 200,000 ampere strike is doable. :-) > > The reason I'm suggesting the roof type design is SAFETY. > Any idea's how you'd interrupt that Amazonian flow of > current if your vertical antenna took a direct hit? Spark gaps and Lightning Arrestors? :-) > > Ideally you'd want nice glow discharge from the elevated > capacity, St. Elmo'm fire. Or Ball Lightning? Regards, Frederick > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 3:49 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Cc: jlsparber@earthlink.net > Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keith Nagel" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 7:18 PM > Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy > > Keith wrote: > > > > Hi Fred. > > > > You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole here. > > Naturally. :-) > > >Hooking up > > a huge cap bank to the roof will do nothing more than drain > > the charge away. > > I'm not so sure about that, Keith. The capactance between the > Ionosphere (at about 300 Kv potential)and the Earth's surface, or the roof > of > Frank's little red barn is about 0.25 Farad and the capacitance between > the roof of the barn to ground is about 300 pf which would be in parallel > with > with the capacitor bank. > > > > Fair weather potential is not gonna do it, > > and I speak from direct experience here. > > IOW you haven't tried a Large Capacitance to see what you would get? > > >The idea is to tap > > the terrific ambient potential when a storm passes, I think > > we can all agree that a lightning strike will do a heck of > > a lot more than boil a cup of coffee. > > Agreed. But that can be done with a vertical antenna on a pole and Frank > can use his roof for drying out his underwear, if it ever stops raining. > > > The difference in performance > > is astounding. > > I'm not surprised. > > >Today I'm looking at my piece of twinlead + 100,000pf cap and > > the potential is less than 10 mv, clear skies and dry. > > Yep, and you only read 0.01 volts because of your experimental setup, > where you should see 30 to 150 volts or more with the FWF. > > > >Yesterday, > > with a storm approaching, potential rose to 6 VOLTS! > > Why not? > > > Bear in > > mind, this is a pathetic circuit, under the worst possible > > conditions. > > To say the least. :-) > > > >When Frank gets a good storm, I've no doubt he'll > > see some serious energy output. That's when his battery is > > gonna explode... > > And so will his Little Red Barn, and not to mention his wife. :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > > K. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 6:55 AM > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > > Cc: jlsparber@earthlink.net > > Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy > > > > > > Let's see. The daily Solar insolation that keeps the Earth/Ionosphere > > Electrical > > Engine going is 12,000 Quads > > (1 Quad is 10^15 BTU). > > > > The world's daily energy production and use is ~ 1.0 Quad/day. > > > > Frank's barn roof is setting in a fair weather potential "well" of ~ 600 > > volts wrt > > Earth Ground. > > > > The roof capacitance (Cr) between the roof and Earth Ground is > > k*8.5E-12*area/height > > (farads). > > There most energy attainable based on that is: > > > > w = 1/2*Cr*V^2 and charge Q = Cr*V. Not enough to heat a cup of coffee day > > or night. > > > > OTOH, based on the fact that the potential on the plates of a high > > dielectric/low > > leakage capacitor aligns each of the molecules in the dielectric, thus > > storing the > > energy due to the Potential of the Fair Weather Field at a given height of > > the roof on > > Frank's barn. > > > > IOW, the Solar-Ionosphere Electrical Engine (SIEE) is a veritable > reservoir > > of > > Infinite Energy, IF we can convince Frank to hook that humongous Capacitor > > Bank that > > he has been sitting on, between the roof and a good ground, using an > > insulated-shielded cable so that the FWF potential gets to the high side > of > > the > > capacitor bank. > > > > Then dumping the capacitor bank to ground through a 1.0 ohm resistance > with > > a RC time > > constant around 0.01 seconds should make some heat and sparks??? :-) > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 15:17:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA32115; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:14:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:14:03 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010529175027.023d0d98@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:14:03 -0400 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: The useful discussion has begun. In-Reply-To: <005701c0e63c$9d96b5e0$62e13604@hppav> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010523103830.00a82ef0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010524093823.029237a8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010525172729.02961870@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Gx3vG2.0.ir7.gy15x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42903 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Jeff Kooistra wrote: >This has been one of my concerns with CF . . . I don't >know if it could ever be a useful source of energy, and the only way I >know of to find out requires gobs of money and lots of effort with lots of >expensive equipment. Hot fusion has had this for years and we still don't >know if it can ever be a useful source of power. Even if a working hot >fusion reactor is eventually built, will it ever be practical from a $$$ >point of view? Hot fusion has more technical roadblocks than CF. Most of HF energy is in the form of neutrons. It would be difficult and expensive to convert them to a useful form of energy such as heat or electricity. HF reactors components would become highly radioactive after use. CF produces mainly heat which can be used as is or converted into electricity. CF reactors have already produced hundreds of times more energy than the best HF reactor in history, although less power. I don't think it would require much money to develop a working CF prototype. Perhaps $100 to $200 million would do it, about as much as they spend to make one blockbuster movie or a large highway exchange. >This is where some of the trouble may come in. In Dr. Storms' case, we >have someone who both knows what he's doing, has been doing it for a long >time, and had all the requisite training beforehand. But his measurements >of power in versus power out are not really simple measurements to make. Since I can understand the measurements, they must be pretty simple. > In any device with sparking, sliding contacts, and significant heat > generation (just to name a few), determining power in and power out might > not be at all easy to do. . . . Yeah, but most CF gadgets don't have such problems. Mizuno's does, but he has used several top-notch meters, so I am confident there is no problem. I myself have no clue how to measure sparking input power, but I have high confidence that when you pay $16,000 and the company sends out a sales engineers to configure the thing, they will get it right. It isn't rocket science. They have been doing this sort of thing for 130 years. If an inventor came along with a novel instrument that he himself devised to measure sparking input power, I would have no way to judge whether it actually worked or not. I would tell him to buy a commercial meter and compare it. >I gather that you would pass on the "opportunity" to fund such a device? >[with tricky input power] I would have to! I would not be qualified to perform due diligence. >Oh, good example--that reminds me of something. When evaluating an >"anti-gravity device", you really have to know how the scale works or you >can fool yourself badly. That's true. I was being flippant. On the other hand, if the gadget lost a kilogram of weight, even I could be sure. >As expected, you're practical. What is your opinion about investors who >fund inventors with nothing more than a theory? I have no opinion. I hope they know theory! I suppose they are qualified experts, like the people who invest in complex new medical technology. Mutual fund managers employ experts to evaluate such things, but I have no idea if they usually do a good job or not. I cannot judge other people's level of expertise well, so I would be very nervous about investing in such opportunities. Many of the mutual fund and investment banker experts who evaluated software opportunities in the 1980s and dot-com companies in the late 90s did a terrible job. There was Business Week issue about that recently. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 15:58:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA17833; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:55:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:55:59 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:55:48 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <002901c0e81c$4ffd42e0$deb4bfa8@computer> In-Reply-To: <002901c0e81c$4ffd42e0$deb4bfa8@computer> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA17734 Resent-Message-ID: <"58rkJ3.0.RM4.-Z25x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42904 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 29 May 2001 03:48:28 -0500: [snip] >Hook a D.C. potential between the plate (+) and the >cathode (-) (no filament heat) and hook a large capacitor >between the grid and the cathode (or plate) and see >if the capacitor charges up to the potential determined >by the interelectrode capacitances, Cgk and Cgp etc., and how much power is drawn from >the power supply >as you do this. [snip] Ok Fred, I'll bite. What happens? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 16:53:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05484; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:52:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:52:56 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c0e89a$745c7d80$7fe13604@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010523103830.00a82ef0@pop.mindspring.com><5.0.2.1.2.20010524093823.029237a8@pop.mindspring.com><5.0.2.1.2.20010525172729.02961870@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010529175027.023d0d98@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: The useful discussion has begun. Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:52:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"9rP16.0.YL1.NP35x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42905 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Jed, > Jeff Kooistra wrote: > > >This has been one of my concerns with CF . . . I don't > >know if it could ever be a useful source of energy, and the only way I > >know of to find out requires gobs of money and lots of effort with lots of > >expensive equipment. >CF produces mainly > heat which can be used as is or converted into electricity. CF reactors > have already produced hundreds of times more energy than the best HF > reactor in history, although less power. I agree CF looks to have many points in its favor that HF doesn't right from the get go. However, I don't know if it will be possible to build a unit (cell) that can stand up to its own energy production for long enough for a practical system to be built. The reaction byproducts that Miley finds "scare" me in this respect--how long before the byproducts poison the reactor? If it's "a long time", then we might be in business. Can electrodes be engineered that will make a practical and competitive reactor possible? I don't know. HF looked rather simple, too, until it was tried. I remain hopeful. > I don't think it would require much money to develop a working CF > prototype. Perhaps $100 to $200 million would do it, about as much as they > spend to make one blockbuster movie or a large highway exchange. Maybe. But there's no way to come up with a reasonable dollar figure until the physics of the reaction is better understood, and I don't know how to get that until enough physicists take seriously the fact that their is a genuine reaction to be studied. Schwinger was physicist enough to know that CF was possible. Bussard was entirely unsurprised by CF, but thought that it wouldn't be practical if Palladium had to be used. I do know that there are quite a few rank and file physicists out there who would be delighted to find out (that is, have it accepted by others first and APS "sanctioned") that P&F were right after all, but they aren't going to stick their necks out, and there is at present little incentive for them to do so in their own communities. > >This is where some of the trouble may come in. In Dr. Storms' case, we > >have someone who both knows what he's doing, has been doing it for a long > >time, and had all the requisite training beforehand. But his measurements > >of power in versus power out are not really simple measurements to make. > > Since I can understand the measurements, they must be pretty simple. It isn't difficult to understand--it is difficult to do it right (which is made all the more difficult by looking deceptively easy). This was one of the things that really ticked me off about my fellow professors--they were willing to pass judgment on the P&F work, sight unseen and via second hand accounts, when not one of them would have pretended that they could handle the ins and outs of the experimental work (electrical measurements of liquid rare earth elements) I was doing in the science building basement, let alone replicate the work in a couple of months. > > In any device with sparking, sliding contacts, and significant heat > > generation (just to name a few), determining power in and power out might > > not be at all easy to do. . . . > > Yeah, but most CF gadgets don't have such problems. Mizuno's does, but he > has used several top-notch meters, so I am confident there is no problem. I > myself have no clue how to measure sparking input power, but I have high > confidence that when you pay $16,000 and the company sends out a sales > engineers to configure the thing, they will get it right. No, not CF gadgets--I was thinking of other purported O-U devices. The Shelton device sparked a lot, for instance. As for confidence in engineers "getting it right," this is highly sensitive to the specifics of a device. A Mizuno cell, I would think so. Even a Shelton device could be done relatively easily. But other things I've heard of--nada. >It isn't rocket science. In some cases, it can be a good deal worse. (Actually, rocket science isn't all that hard. OK, OK, I know what you meant, but some devices can be damn hard to take solid measurements on in anything like a conventional way. What every experimental physicist learns in a hurry, or he quits or goes into theory, is that every experimental apparatus or test rig he builds is, in and of itself, an experiment in its own right.) > >Oh, good example--that reminds me of something. When evaluating an > >"anti-gravity device", you really have to know how the scale works or you > >can fool yourself badly. > > That's true. I was being flippant. On the other hand, if the gadget lost a > kilogram of weight, even I could be sure. And how would you KNOW if it lost a kilogram of weight? I know of one group that wanted to find a stone table to use for testing an AG device since they didn't want to be fooled by some kind of E&M coupling to the table that might mimic weight loss. When asked if they knew what the iron content of the rock in the table was, this caused a flurry of additional worry, since that, too, might be relevant. Getting a solid measurement, and knowing you got a solid measurement, and convincing the world that you got a solid measurement, are three different things. [Sorry--just speaking for the wider audience.] > >As expected, you're practical. What is your opinion about investors who > >fund inventors with nothing more than a theory? > > I have no opinion. I hope they know theory! I suppose they are qualified > experts, like the people who invest in complex new medical > technology. Mutual fund managers employ experts to evaluate such things, > but I have no idea if they usually do a good job or not. I cannot judge > other people's level of expertise well, so I would be very nervous about > investing in such opportunities. In a few instances I'm familiar with, the investors were not qualified to judge, but thought they were. This is good news I suppose for some of the inventors out there--it lowers the bar to getting funding. > Many of the mutual fund and investment banker experts who evaluated > software opportunities in the 1980s and dot-com companies in the late 90s > did a terrible job. There was Business Week issue about that recently. I'm not surprised by that--they were not qualified to make judgments about the "new" dot.com world eh? kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 17:11:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA10421; Tue, 29 May 2001 17:09:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:09:38 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c0e89c$cdbafda0$7fe13604@hppav> From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" To: References: <000c01c0e86a$a5ab0580$5c181ad8@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:09:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"WN4pD2.0.gY2.2f35x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42906 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Bruce, > Jeff; It has been 6 year since I have talked face to face with the inventors > who have had active suppression experiences. I may have an opportunity in the > near future as Toyota is soon paying my way to an Event in the Midwest. I live in the Midwest--when and where? (Or isn't it a public event?) > Perhaps I will get a more complete story as to what technology was taken > and by whom and what his plans are..., Unless you get this, no one will be inclined to take you seriously. I'm willing to listen, but I am not a source of money. I'm also willing to believe that active suppression happens, but that's a long way from believing every story I'm told. By the way, why do you believe the guy? > I just mentioned all these > very brief stories to get some feedback of what may be the best approach to > get the revolutionary free energy technology onboard for future generations > to use, without completely destroying the planet. Well, look--if the guy is being actively suppressed, then the worst thing you could do is start broadcasting about him via vortex and other web sites. Any group capable of staging black helicopter raids can certainly have someone monitor vortex on a regular basis. > The first effort is to bring to the public awareness that such technologies exist.(There are > several publications out there = www.free-energy.cc and the other one I > believe is www.searchforforfreeenergy.com (Also my publication coming up > and others like Infinite Energy.) None of these avenues will bring all that much public awareness--they tend to reach only those who don't need to be reached anymore. Greer's big public UFO meeting at the National Press Club has a better chance, though even that was pretty much a one or two day story. The public will become aware when they can hold working devices in their hands. Prior to that, you don't need the public--you need a guy with money to convince so you can make the products. kooistra From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 19:05:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA15868; Tue, 29 May 2001 18:58:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:58:33 -0700 Message-ID: <00af01c0e8a3$5622ac00$deb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <002901c0e81c$4ffd42e0$deb4bfa8@computer> Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:56:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"DQwDK2.0.nt3.8F55x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42907 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 5:55 PM Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Robin wrote: > In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 29 May 2001 03:48:28 > -0500: > [snip] > >Hook a D.C. potential between the plate (+) and the > >cathode (-) (no filament heat) and hook a large capacitor > >between the grid and the cathode (or plate) and see > >if the capacitor charges up to the potential determined > >by the interelectrode capacitances, Cgk and Cgp etc., and how much power is drawn from > >the power supply > >as you do this. > [snip] > Ok Fred, I'll bite. What happens? If you can find a small vacuum triode, and a 9 volt transistor battery(hooked between cathode and plate) with No Filament Power, and a low leakage capacitor (a 1.0 nanofarad will do)discharged and hooked between the grid negative terminal (cathode)you should find that the grid to plate capacitance (Cgp)will be in series with the grid to cathode (Cgk) capacitance and the larger external capacitor, and a high impedance DMM will show the charging of the external capacitor. Most of the energy taken from the battery will be stored in the external capacitor, w = 1/2 CV^2. IOW the interelectrode capacitances of a triode tube make it a vacuum capacitance divider. I consider this to be an analog of the extraction of energy (Solar) using the Fair Weather Field, as is being discussed. After a heated phone conversation, Frank thought he might have a go at it, since he has a variety of triodes on hand. :-) Regards, Frederick > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 19:12:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA19603; Tue, 29 May 2001 19:08:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:08:48 -0700 Message-ID: <00c101c0e8a4$c38619c0$deb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Fw: Barn roof free energy Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 20:06:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"0o_EH3.0.5o4.lO55x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42908 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keith Nagel" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 5:03 PM > Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy > > Keith wrote: > > > > Hi Fred. > > > > OK, I must have missed your comments about low leakage. > > > > I agree with your model, but don't forget the critical > > part concerning charging current. You should include a > > high value resistor (Rair) as the charging resistor > > bridging the hot side of both the earth/ionisphere > > capacitor and the barn capacitor. If Rair << Rcap > > all will be well and charge will collect. Unfortunately > > Rair is rather big when fair weather conditions exist. > > A big cap will take a long time to charge... > > > > The question is, how to decrease Rair or more to the point, > > get the elevated capacity to equalize with it's environment. > > > > Simple, increase the area of the roof of Frank's Barn. > > > > > > Sorry if I seem like a broken record, but when I > > get several orders of magnitude increase in charging > > current when a storm passes I tend to pay attention > > to that. > > > Note the area required for a healthy thunderstorm. > > > > Way I see it, it's like Mother Nature has set up a big > > power supply (as you describe), and has plugs that > > move around the earth providing fresh water and power. > > Is that cool of her or what? Why swim against the stream? > Why not build a canoe? :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > > K. > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 22:28:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15851; Tue, 29 May 2001 22:22:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:22:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3B148392.9EB85A80@suite224.net> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 01:22:26 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy References: <002901c0e81c$4ffd42e0$deb4bfa8@computer> <00af01c0e8a3$5622ac00$deb4bfa8@computer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OfKvx3.0.bt3.OE85x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42909 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Frederick Sparber wrote: > > If you can find a small vacuum triode, and a 9 volt transistor battery(hooked between > cathode and plate) with No Filament Power, and a low leakage capacitor (a 1.0 > nanofarad will do)discharged and hooked between the grid negative terminal > (cathode)you should find that the grid to plate capacitance (Cgp)will be in series > with the grid to cathode (Cgk) capacitance and the larger external capacitor, and a > high impedance DMM will show > the charging of the external capacitor. > Most of the energy taken from the battery will be stored in the external capacitor, w > = 1/2 CV^2. > > IOW the interelectrode capacitances of a triode tube make it a vacuum capacitance > divider. > > I consider this to be an analog of the extraction of energy > (Solar) using the Fair Weather Field, as is being discussed. > > After a heated phone conversation, Frank thought he might have a go at it, since he > has a variety of triodes on hand. :-) After I cooled down, Fred, I dug out an old "lighthouse" UHF triode I have and a 0.0022 UF , 12,000 WVDC capacitor. I grounded the plate, and one side of the capacitor. I connected the other side of the cap to the grid of the triode. Then I put +50 volts on the cathode WRT ground and tried to monitor the voltage across the cap. Right away, I ran into trouble - my 10 Mohm input DMM would discharge the cap before I could get a reading. The settling time of the meter is just too long. Let's see, at 50 volts, the .0022 UF cap should store: Q = C V = (.0022E-6)(50) = 0.11E-6 coulomb Now, if my meter input is 10E6 ohms, then the initial meter current would be I_i = (50)/(1E7) = 5E-6 amps. If the current were constant at 5E-6 amps = 5E-6 coulombs/sec, then, it would take t = coulombs/(coulombs/sec) = sec = 0.11/5 = .022 seconds to move that much charge. That's too fast - the DMM is no good for these values. I then tried a 12,500 volt, 0.1 UF oil cap and at least I could see the voltage decay on this cap. When I hooked it to the triode, it did look like it was slowly picking up a small charge. Then, I got worried about things like stray surface resistances around the circuit and stopped tinkering at that point. I noticed that if I kept the DMM connected to the cap, it would keep the cap at ground (zero volts). This test needs more thought, I think. Maybe better instruments and more time. It's too late now, but I think I would like to ponder a simple circuit with two identical "perfect" capacitors in series across a voltage source and try to reason the detailed charge flow as the "bottom" cap is loaded for a time, and then unloaded. Maybe tomorrow... Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 29 23:00:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA24512; Tue, 29 May 2001 22:58:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:58:27 -0700 Message-ID: <00fb01c0e8c4$d94cd8a0$deb4bfa8@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: <002901c0e81c$4ffd42e0$deb4bfa8@computer> <00af01c0e8a3$5622ac00$deb4bfa8@computer> <3B148392.9EB85A80@suite224.net> Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:55:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ss5ir2.0.o-5.2m85x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42910 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francis J. Stenger" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 12:22 AM Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Frank Stenger wrote: > > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > If you can find a small vacuum triode, and a 9 volt transistor battery(hooked between > > cathode and plate) with No Filament Power, and a low leakage capacitor (a 1.0 > > nanofarad will do)discharged and hooked between the grid negative terminal > > (cathode)you should find that the grid to plate capacitance (Cgp)will be in series > > with the grid to cathode (Cgk) capacitance and the larger external capacitor, and a > > high impedance DMM will show > > the charging of the external capacitor. > > Most of the energy taken from the battery will be stored in the external capacitor, w > > = 1/2 CV^2. > > > > IOW the interelectrode capacitances of a triode tube make it a vacuum capacitance > > divider. > > > > I consider this to be an analog of the extraction of energy > > (Solar) using the Fair Weather Field, as is being discussed. > > > > After a heated phone conversation, Frank thought he might have a go at it, since he > > has a variety of triodes on hand. :-) > > After I cooled down, Fred, I dug out an old "lighthouse" UHF triode > I have Yikes Frank, thanks! The interelectrode capacitance (Cgp,Cgk,and Cpk))of a UHF Triode has to be down around a femtofarad or less, in order to work at those frequencies. :-) Can you try something with around a few picofarads? > > and a 0.0022 UF , 12,000 WVDC capacitor I grounded the plate, > and one side of the capacitor. I connected the other side of the cap > to the grid of the triode. Then I put +50 volts on the cathode WRT > ground and tried to monitor the voltage across the cap. > Right away, I ran into trouble - my 10 Mohm input DMM would discharge > the cap before I could get a reading. The settling time of the > meter is just too long. Let's see, at 50 volts, the .0022 UF cap > should store: > > Q = C V = (.0022E-6)(50) = 0.11E-6 coulomb > If the Cgp is 1.0E-13 farad with 2.2E-9 farad, the 50 volts will divide 2.2E4/1.0 and you will only see about 5 millivolts and Q = CV = (.0022E-6) (5.0E-3) = 1.1E-11 coulomb > Now, if my meter input is 10E6 ohms, then the initial meter current > would be > I_i = (50)/(1E7) = 5E-6 amps. > > If the current were constant at 5E-6 amps = 5E-6 coulombs/sec, > then, it would take > > t = coulombs/(coulombs/sec) = sec = 0.11/5 = .022 seconds > to move that much charge. > > That's too fast - the DMM is no good for these values. > > I then tried a 12,500 volt, 0.1 UF oil cap and at least I could see > the voltage decay on this cap. When I hooked it to the triode, > it did look like it was slowly picking up a small charge. > Then, I got worried about things like stray surface resistances > around the circuit and stopped tinkering at that point. > I noticed that if I kept the DMM connected to the cap, it would keep > the cap at ground (zero volts). > > This test needs more thought, I think. Just a little. But a great first cut. :-) > Maybe better instruments and > more time. It's too late now, but I think I would like to ponder > a simple circuit with two identical "perfect" capacitors in series > across a voltage source and try to reason the detailed charge > flow as the "bottom" cap is loaded for a time, and then unloaded. > > Maybe tomorrow... Thanks loads, Frank. Regards, Frederick > > Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 30 09:18:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25932; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:13:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:13:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3B151C1C.D11F96A1@suite224.net> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:13:16 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: jlsparber@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy References: <002901c0e81c$4ffd42e0$deb4bfa8@computer> <00af01c0e8a3$5622ac00$deb4bfa8@computer> <3B148392.9EB85A80@suite224.net> <00fb01c0e8c4$d94cd8a0$deb4bfa8@com puter> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jWfIM2.0.6L6.kmH5x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42911 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Frederick Sparber wrote: > Yikes Frank, thanks! The interelectrode capacitance (Cgp,Cgk,and Cpk))of a UHF Triode > has to be down around a femtofarad or less, in order to work at those frequencies. > :-) > Can you try something with around a few picofarads? Fred, I think the old glass triodes I have are 211's and work at about 15 MHz at full rating. My old RAH lists a high frequency triode, the 3CX100A5, with full rating at 2500 MHz. (pretty sure a lighthouse type??) Now, they list the following for the tubes: 211 3CX100A5 C_in 6.0 uuF 7.0 uuF C_gp 14.5 uuF 2.15 uuF C_out 5.5 uuF 0.035 uuF They did get the C_out way down for the 3CX tube, but I think where they make their high-frequency money for the lighthouse tubes is in getting the lead inductance WAY DOWN. I forget if I ran the plates of my lighthouse tubes at ground or not - I think I may have because the plates are water cooled. Back in the '60's I managed to make a coaxial cavity oscillator with two of the tubes that would actually sorta-cook an egg held near a stub antenna. (I think at about 450 MHz) Probably why I'm so loopy now! As for the experiment, could we learn anything from the following simple circuit? + charge bus at +50 vdc-------| | | |A ________|________ _________________ 0.0022 uF capacitor | | |B | ________|________ _________________ 0.0022 uF cap. | | | |G ground ///////////////////////////////////////////////// Now, if I start with the caps discharged and with points A, B, and G all at ground potential, when I hook the bus to point A, the caps will charge to 25 volts each so that the potentials will be: A = 50 v B = 25 v G = 0 v right? What seemed to happen when I put my DMM across B and G was that B would discharge thru my meter until B was at G potential (zero). Then, we know that A was still at 50 v, so we have the full 50 v across the top cap. Now, with no meter in the circuit, the caps can remain in this condition! The lower cap will not recharge just because it's in series with the top cap! Electrons did flow from ground to point B on the first discharge of the lower capacitor. These electrons will stay put to hold point B at ground potential - no matter how long we wait, the lower cap will not recharge. For the "barn roof" model with no air charge transfer involved, the top plate of the bottom cap would be the underside of the roof. The bottom plate of the top cap would be the top of the roof. When I first discharge the primeval charge separation that occurs when I put the roof plate in place, that's it - no more charge transfer will happen - as long as the bus potential stays constant. If the bus potential oscillates, then we can pull AC power off the lower plate. Maybe this is what Tesla had in mind? If I'm about 7 posts behind on this - that's normal - sigh.... Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 30 09:54:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04064; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:46:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:46:36 -0700 Message-ID: <003301c0e91d$873206e0$84181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Fw: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:26:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"O_cOx1.0.M_.hFI5x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42912 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Bailey To: BCC: Energy_Send_,List Date: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:44 PM Subject: FWD: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated FWD: Thanks Tom! From: "Integrity Research Institute, Thomas Valone" To: Subject: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:45:10 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-Rcpt-To: pgb@padrak.com NEGATIVE RESISTANCE IN CARBON FIBERS REPLICATED ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally scheduled as a COFE speaker in 1999, Dr. Deborah Chung's discovery has eagerly awaited confirmation because of its energy source implications. On May 20, 2001, Jean-Louis Naudin released the following announcement: "The results are now very encouraging, today, I can confirm experimentally the 'Negative Resistance' discovered by Dr. Chung in 1998." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Dr. Chung's report was published as: "Apparent negative electrical resistance in carbon fiber composites," by Shoukai Wang and D.D.L. Chung - Composites, Part B, Vol. 30, 1999, p. 579-590. Full details are in the forwarded email below. Naudin's announcement is at the end. -T. Valone) > Forwarded Message: > > To: jlnlabs@yahoogroups.com > > From: harti@harti.com > > Subject: [jlnlabs] How to use the The Chung Negative Resistance ! > > Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:28:56 -0000 > > ----- > > BTW, > > I had called Mr. > > Richard Lohrman of the Buffalo University about 3 years > > ago and did not get any call back, when I read > > at this time of this new negative resistor invention. > > > > Also as they seemed to suppress their findings later on, > > it is now a real luck that Jean Louis has rediscovered > > it, how it works ! > > > > I guess it must be pretty easy to run a high Q LC tank > > circuit with this junction in parallel or series and > > also light a small bulb up ! > > > > The circuit must be tuned, so that he oscillations donīt cease > > but also donīt blow up the LC components ! > > > > I guess this is then all powered by a "Maxwell Daemon" at the junction > > converting heat energy to electrical energy and so violating second > > law of thermodynamics and giving us free electrical energy > > from cooling down the heat of the surounding environment ! > > > > With this thing you can build selfrunning fridges, which produce > > electrical energy as a byproduct and cool your beer ! ;) > > > > Maybe Jean Louis can sell us some meters of his fiber ? > > He probably already have enough of it ? > > or sell any kits ? > > > > Jean Louis, did you already try with the bigger 12000 fibers > > unit ? ( T300 12K ?) > > > > Maybe the more fibers there are the more heat power is converted > > at the junction ? > > > > As this is a TRUE Negative resistance and no differential > > negative resistance, it should really power indefinately > > also oscillating LC tank circuits or should charge up > > capacitors which are connected in series with a discharge lamp, > > so the lamp will never go out from one charge of the cap ! > > (If the negative resistance is as big as the positive resistance > > of the lamp, then the cap will stay charged as the lamp is > > lighting !!!) > > There are unendless applications form it ! > > I guess Mrs. Chung has not yet realized, what she had invented !! > > This is a real breakthrough ! > > > > Regards, Stefan. > > > > > > --- In jlnlabs@y..., harti@h... wrote: > > > Jean Louis, > > > very nice job indeed ! > > > Congratulations ! > > > I hope you can post more about the fiber material > > > and where one can buy it. > > > > > > Maybe it would also show a voltage across > > > the junction already without a load at all ? > > > > > > I guess this works by converting the surounding > > > heat into electrical energy, so maybe you can measure > > > any temperature gradient around the device, when producing > > > electrical energy ? > > > > > > Can you increase the junction voltage by stacking more junctions > > > or using more pressure or more bigger contact areas ? > > > What about adding magnetic fields from permament magnets > > > around the neighbourhood of the junction ? > > > Does this help anyhow ? > > > > > > Good Luck ! > > > > > > Regards, Stefan. > > > > > > > > > --- In jlnlabs@y..., "William S. Alek" wrote: > > > > Jean-Louis, > > > > > > > > Fascinating work! Good job. > > > > > > > > Now, the explanation reported in the media makes absolutely NO > > > sense > > > > to me how this thing works: > > > > "According to Chung, negative resistance indicates that the > > > > electrons in the system are flowing in a direction opposite to > > that > > > > in which they normally flow." > > > > > > > > Which suggests that electrons are being created out of the active > > > > vacuum. Which does occur, however, in this case what I believe is > > > > really happening here is that as the electrons flow through the > > > > junction, they are accelerated by an unknown "forcing function" > > > > caused by the carbon fibre junction. It sounds like a kind of > > > > switching or conducting electret type of device. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In jlnlabs@y..., jnaudin509@a... wrote: > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > Today I have updated my web site with a VERY INTERESTING > > > experiment > > > > that I > > > > > have conducted successfully : > > > > > > > > > > << In a July 9, 1998, at the 5th International Conference on > > > > Composites > > > > > Engineering in Las Vegas,Dr. Deborah D. L. Chung, professor of > > > > mechanical and > > > > > aerospace engineering at University at Buffalo (UB), reported > > > that > > > > she > > > > > had observed apparent negative resistance in interfaces between > > > > layers of > > > > > carbon fibers in a composite material. Professor Chung holds > > the > > > > Niagara > > > > > Mohawk Chair in Materials Research at UB and is internationally > > > > recognized > > > > > for her work in smart materials and carbon composites. > > > > > > > > > > The negative resistance was observed in a direction > > perpendicular > > > > to the > > > > > fiber layers. A paper describing the research was submitted by > > > > Chung to a > > > > > peer-reviewed journal,and a patent application was filed by the > > > > University. >> > > > > > > > > > > Document source "On Extracting Electromagnetic Energy from > > > > theVacuum" > > > > > IC-2000, by Tom Bearden > > > > > > > > > > Now, On May 19th, 2001, I have been able to replicate > > > successfully > > > > the > > > > > Chung's Negative Resistance (CNR). You will find in my web site > > > at : http://jnaudin.free.fr/cnr/cnrexp1.htm > > > > > all informations and datas about the CNR experiment that I have > > > > done. The CNR > > > > > experiment has been conducted so as to be closer to the > > original > > > > Chung's > > > > > design which is fully described in the paper "Apparent negative > > > > electrical > > > > > resistance in carbon fiber composites," by Shoukai Wang and > > > D.D.L. > > > > Chung - > > > > > Composites, Part B, Vol. 30, 1999, p. 579-590. > > > > > > > > > > The results are now very encouraging, today, I can confirm > > > > experimentaly the > > > > > "Negative Resistance" discovered by Dr. Chung in 1998. > > > > > > > > > > This fascinating discoverydone by Dr Chung is a real > > breakthrough > > > > in > > > > > physics... > > > > > > > > > > More tests are soon planned, stay tuned... > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards > > > > > Jean-Louis Naudin > > > > > Email: JNaudin509@a... > > > > > Web site : > > HREF="http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/ > > > > > > Messages archives at : > > > > http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ > > > > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to jlnlabs-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > JLN Labs web site at: http://go.to/jlnlabs > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using Voicenet WebMail. > http://www.voicenet.com/webmail/ > > ----------------------------------------------- Please support your not for profit organizations dedicated to energy research! www.integrity-research.org Email iri@erols.com to be removed from occasional energy briefings. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 30 11:59:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA05504; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000801c0e92a$554bc0a0$ab181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: "Robin van Spaandonk" , Subject: Fw: The Search For Free Energy - UK Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:02:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"sebEg2.0.wL1.f0K5x"@mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42913 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com >From: >http://www.thesearchforfreeenergy.com > >THE SEARCH FOR FREE ENERGY >A Scientific Tale Of Jealousy, Genius And Electricity >by Keith Tutt >Simon & Schuster, 2001, Hardcover >ISBN: 0-684-86660-9 (368 pages, Ģ18.99) >NON-FICTION / POPULAR SCIENCE > >Foreword by Sir Arthur C. Clarke > >- Nikola Tesla - Electricity's Hidden Genius >- T.H. Moray - Capturing the Energy of the Universe >- The N-machine - Michael Faraday's Mysterious Legacy >- A Secret in the Swiss Mountains - Paul Baumann and the Thesta-Distatica >- Cold Fusion Comes of Age >- Randell Mills - Blacklight's Power Struggle >- Zero-point Physics and the Cosmic Free Lunch >- Conspiracies, Charlatans and Sceptics >- Envisaging a New Energy Future > >Author Information > >Keith Tutt studied psychology and philosophy at Bristol University before >becoming a full-time writer in 1981. Since then he has written plays, >screenplays and documentary scripts for television. Keith has also produced >a number of science and environmental TV programmes for the BBC. In 1993 he >was a winner of the prestigious BT Science Journalism of the Year Award for >his documentary 'Killing Us Softly?' about the Sizewell 'B' nuclear power >station. Keith lives in Norfolk, England, with his wife, BAFTA award winning >artist Hannah Giffard, and their three children. > >EDITORIAL REVIEW - What Simon and Schuster say about 'The Search for Free >Energy'. > >The Search for Free Energy' reveals the revolutionary work of inventors and >scientists who are developing clear and 'fuelless' new ways to produce the >electricity we need for the twenty-first century and beyond. Here are the >technologies that could drastically change the economic, political and >environmental conditions of the world we live in for the better. If they can >be developed commercially, they offer almost costless energy, the end of the >oil economy and the 'democritisation' of electricity throughout the >developed and underdeveloped world. > >Drawing on extensive and revealing new research, 'The Search for Free >Energy' uncovers the extraordinary lives of the inventors and scientists >behind these technologies and the power struggles that face those who >challenge the scientific status quo. 'The Search for Free Energy' contains >the elements of a dramatic conspiracy thriller in which greed, mendacity, >murder, suicide, suppression, betrayal, jealousy, madness, and misunderstood >genius all play their full parts. It also investigates the complex >psychology of invention and the claims that some inventors are either >self-deluded mavericks or charlatans who aim to trick gullible investors out >of their savings. > >Most importantly, there are technologies here that offer to solve the >planet's most serious problem: global warming and climate change caused by >fossil fuel power plants and car emissions. Is the technological solution to >global warming contained within these pages? > >NEW SCIENTIST REVIEW - 28/4/2001 > >'Everything Has a Price' > >'The Search for Free Energy: A Scientific Tale of Jealousy, Genius and >Electricity' by Keith Tutt >with a foreword by Sir Arthur C. Clarke. > >The Croatian-American inventor Nikola Tesla was seriously weird. He soothed >his head with x-rays, attempted communication with Mars and proposed >broadcasting power by wireless. But however strange his approach, Telsa was >also the originator of the rotating magnetic field that led to the >alternating current (AC) electric motor and three-phase AC - key >technologies that shaped traditional electricity systems throughout the 20th >century. > >Compared to Tesla, most of the dramatis personae in Keith Tutt's account of >The Search for Free Energy seem reassuringly normal. But to those who >accept the conventions of modern physics their ideas are at least as weird >as Telsa's. Anyone even moderately acquainted with the first and second >laws of thermodynamics or classical quantum theory is likely to back away >hastily when offered devices that purport to yield more energy than they >need to operate. > >But the inventors of the Radiant Energy Device, the N-machine, the Thesta-Di >statica, cold fusion and its variants, hydrinos, and zero-point energy could >hardly ask for a better intercessor than Tutt. His vivid, level-headed and >engrossing commentary is as entertaining as it is thought-provoking. > >Liberalisation and technical innovation are already raising fundamental >questions about the future of electricity. If the search that Tutt >chronicles should happen to bear fruit, the future will be stranger still. > >(Read Gene Mallove's review in the new issue of Infinite Energy magazine on >newsstands now.) > >Publicity: > >Nemah Kamar >Simon & Schuster UK Ltd >Africa House >64 - 78 Kingsway >London WC2B 6AH >United Kingdom >Tel: +44 (0)20 7316 1988 >Fax: +44 (0)20 7316 0332 > >To order the book: > >Send $39.50 US (includes S&H) to: >Lightpath Productions >PO BOX 19, >Bungay, >Suffolk, >NR35 2BX, >England UK >info@thesearchforfreeenergy.com > >You can order directly online with British pounds: >Ģ26.50 (includes S&H) at: >http://www.thesearchforfreeenergy.com/orderbody1.htm >WORLPAY accepts MasterCard, Visa, Delta, Eurocard, Solo and Switch. WORLDPAY >is the provider of choice for many of the world's leading organisations >including, Amnesty International, Princess Diana Memorial Fund, The >Economist, Oxfam, Mars, UPS etc > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 30 12:18:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA28104; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:14:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:14:45 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:20:20 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <003301c0e91d$873206e0$84181ad8@oemcomputer> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"ql77w3.0.xs6.ZQK5x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42914 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Why don't you be a good journalist and follow up on this report, Bruce. True negative resistance (battery) is not being demonstrated in either of these experiments. Remember those magic words, due dilligence. You can start by asking JLN himself. K. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Meland [mailto:etimes@teleport.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 11:27 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: herman@antioch-college.edu Subject: Fw: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Bailey To: BCC: Energy_Send_,List Date: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:44 PM Subject: FWD: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated FWD: Thanks Tom! From: "Integrity Research Institute, Thomas Valone" To: Subject: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:45:10 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-Rcpt-To: pgb@padrak.com NEGATIVE RESISTANCE IN CARBON FIBERS REPLICATED ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally scheduled as a COFE speaker in 1999, Dr. Deborah Chung's discovery has eagerly awaited confirmation because of its energy source implications. On May 20, 2001, Jean-Louis Naudin released the following announcement: "The results are now very encouraging, today, I can confirm experimentally the 'Negative Resistance' discovered by Dr. Chung in 1998." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Dr. Chung's report was published as: "Apparent negative electrical resistance in carbon fiber composites," by Shoukai Wang and D.D.L. Chung - Composites, Part B, Vol. 30, 1999, p. 579-590. Full details are in the forwarded email below. Naudin's announcement is at the end. -T. Valone) > Forwarded Message: > > To: jlnlabs@yahoogroups.com > > From: harti@harti.com > > Subject: [jlnlabs] How to use the The Chung Negative Resistance ! > > Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:28:56 -0000 > > ----- > > BTW, > > I had called Mr. > > Richard Lohrman of the Buffalo University about 3 years > > ago and did not get any call back, when I read > > at this time of this new negative resistor invention. > > > > Also as they seemed to suppress their findings later on, > > it is now a real luck that Jean Louis has rediscovered > > it, how it works ! > > > > I guess it must be pretty easy to run a high Q LC tank > > circuit with this junction in parallel or series and > > also light a small bulb up ! > > > > The circuit must be tuned, so that he oscillations donīt cease > > but also donīt blow up the LC components ! > > > > I guess this is then all powered by a "Maxwell Daemon" at the junction > > converting heat energy to electrical energy and so violating second > > law of thermodynamics and giving us free electrical energy > > from cooling down the heat of the surounding environment ! > > > > With this thing you can build selfrunning fridges, which produce > > electrical energy as a byproduct and cool your beer ! ;) > > > > Maybe Jean Louis can sell us some meters of his fiber ? > > He probably already have enough of it ? > > or sell any kits ? > > > > Jean Louis, did you already try with the bigger 12000 fibers > > unit ? ( T300 12K ?) > > > > Maybe the more fibers there are the more heat power is converted > > at the junction ? > > > > As this is a TRUE Negative resistance and no differential > > negative resistance, it should really power indefinately > > also oscillating LC tank circuits or should charge up > > capacitors which are connected in series with a discharge lamp, > > so the lamp will never go out from one charge of the cap ! > > (If the negative resistance is as big as the positive resistance > > of the lamp, then the cap will stay charged as the lamp is > > lighting !!!) > > There are unendless applications form it ! > > I guess Mrs. Chung has not yet realized, what she had invented !! > > This is a real breakthrough ! > > > > Regards, Stefan. > > > > > > --- In jlnlabs@y..., harti@h... wrote: > > > Jean Louis, > > > very nice job indeed ! > > > Congratulations ! > > > I hope you can post more about the fiber material > > > and where one can buy it. > > > > > > Maybe it would also show a voltage across > > > the junction already without a load at all ? > > > > > > I guess this works by converting the surounding > > > heat into electrical energy, so maybe you can measure > > > any temperature gradient around the device, when producing > > > electrical energy ? > > > > > > Can you increase the junction voltage by stacking more junctions > > > or using more pressure or more bigger contact areas ? > > > What about adding magnetic fields from permament magnets > > > around the neighbourhood of the junction ? > > > Does this help anyhow ? > > > > > > Good Luck ! > > > > > > Regards, Stefan. > > > > > > > > > --- In jlnlabs@y..., "William S. Alek" wrote: > > > > Jean-Louis, > > > > > > > > Fascinating work! Good job. > > > > > > > > Now, the explanation reported in the media makes absolutely NO > > > sense > > > > to me how this thing works: > > > > "According to Chung, negative resistance indicates that the > > > > electrons in the system are flowing in a direction opposite to > > that > > > > in which they normally flow." > > > > > > > > Which suggests that electrons are being created out of the active > > > > vacuum. Which does occur, however, in this case what I believe is > > > > really happening here is that as the electrons flow through the > > > > junction, they are accelerated by an unknown "forcing function" > > > > caused by the carbon fibre junction. It sounds like a kind of > > > > switching or conducting electret type of device. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In jlnlabs@y..., jnaudin509@a... wrote: > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > Today I have updated my web site with a VERY INTERESTING > > > experiment > > > > that I > > > > > have conducted successfully : > > > > > > > > > > << In a July 9, 1998, at the 5th International Conference on > > > > Composites > > > > > Engineering in Las Vegas,Dr. Deborah D. L. Chung, professor of > > > > mechanical and > > > > > aerospace engineering at University at Buffalo (UB), reported > > > that > > > > she > > > > > had observed apparent negative resistance in interfaces between > > > > layers of > > > > > carbon fibers in a composite material. Professor Chung holds > > the > > > > Niagara > > > > > Mohawk Chair in Materials Research at UB and is internationally > > > > recognized > > > > > for her work in smart materials and carbon composites. > > > > > > > > > > The negative resistance was observed in a direction > > perpendicular > > > > to the > > > > > fiber layers. A paper describing the research was submitted by > > > > Chung to a > > > > > peer-reviewed journal,and a patent application was filed by the > > > > University. >> > > > > > > > > > > Document source "On Extracting Electromagnetic Energy from > > > > theVacuum" > > > > > IC-2000, by Tom Bearden > > > > > > > > > > Now, On May 19th, 2001, I have been able to replicate > > > successfully > > > > the > > > > > Chung's Negative Resistance (CNR). You will find in my web site > > > at : http://jnaudin.free.fr/cnr/cnrexp1.htm > > > > > all informations and datas about the CNR experiment that I have > > > > done. The CNR > > > > > experiment has been conducted so as to be closer to the > > original > > > > Chung's > > > > > design which is fully described in the paper "Apparent negative > > > > electrical > > > > > resistance in carbon fiber composites," by Shoukai Wang and > > > D.D.L. > > > > Chung - > > > > > Composites, Part B, Vol. 30, 1999, p. 579-590. > > > > > > > > > > The results are now very encouraging, today, I can confirm > > > > experimentaly the > > > > > "Negative Resistance" discovered by Dr. Chung in 1998. > > > > > > > > > > This fascinating discoverydone by Dr Chung is a real > > breakthrough > > > > in > > > > > physics... > > > > > > > > > > More tests are soon planned, stay tuned... > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards > > > > > Jean-Louis Naudin > > > > > Email: JNaudin509@a... > > > > > Web site : > > HREF="http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/ > > > > > > Messages archives at : > > > > http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ > > > > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to jlnlabs-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > JLN Labs web site at: http://go.to/jlnlabs > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using Voicenet WebMail. > http://www.voicenet.com/webmail/ > > ----------------------------------------------- Please support your not for profit organizations dedicated to energy research! www.integrity-research.org Email iri@erols.com to be removed from occasional energy briefings. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 30 12:37:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02987; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:31:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:31:30 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003301c0e91d$873206e0$84181ad8@oemcomputer> References: <003301c0e91d$873206e0$84181ad8@oemcomputer> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:31:10 -1000 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Fw: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"R9SQL2.0.Vk.HgK5x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42915 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Bruce - You do know that this isn't any kind of vacuum coherer or potential energy source, don't you? Even JLN and others on that list are clear on that. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 30 12:37:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04366; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:35:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:35:02 -0700 Message-ID: <007b01c0e935$0d2d8780$ab181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:19:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"U-xz73.0.641.bjK5x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42916 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com ; vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, May 25, 2001 7:51 AM Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing >Bruce Meland wrote: > >>He never reveals his latest model. IE money is needed to develop final >>product. > >Bruce: Let me get this straight. He never reveals his latest model, and all >of his previous models have been taken away by the Helicopter Men. Right? Jed I think you are reading too much into this situation. As I don't have all the complete info only through a 3rd party as his lines are tapped the his mail has been stopped for some time. I am trying to get more complete info so back of a little on yur sarcasm please. I know this sounds so far out but if you at Infinite Energy would be up to publishing an article on supression of free energy inventors i would be happy to supply you with a story. I hope you are aware that supression does exist. None of the Cold Fusion technology you publish in Infinite Energy would be worth supression tactics and cold fusion is years from having a turnkey product. I just happen to have followed quietly some of the rather revolutionary technology such as Neutrinovoltaics which is definitely a quantum leap in free energy and worthwhile of supression. I did notice your boss recently made a trip to Detroit to cover some revolutionary technology. I hope you publish something about that technology. >Jed Wrote They also took all photographs, videos, test results, affidavits from third >party independent tests, and -- in short -- every scrap of evidence that >the device ever existed. Bruce wrote No they did not. I am trying to find out more details. > >Jed wrote Look at the situation from my point of view, as a potential investor. >Because your friend Mr. X refuses to reveal his latest model, he leaves me >with no way to judge his claims. I cannot tell whether Mr. X really has >something, or whether he is a outright fraud, or a lunatic. No investor >would consider funding him without proof the device is real. > >Now consider, if Mr. X would change his policy, and reveal his latest >model, within weeks he would have hundreds of thousands of dollars, and in >a few years he would be a billionaire, and among the most famous and >honored people in history. > >Since he has every reason to reveal it, and no rational reason to hide it, >in my opinion he must be either a fraud or a lunatic, or both. I do not >think there is any likelihood the device is real, but for the sake of >argument suppose it is. Mr. X's policies mean he can never develop it, or >sell it. Like Stanley Meyer and many others, he is determined to carry his >"secret" to the grave. Nobody will ever know or care whether it was real. > >I suggest you send him a copy of this message, and report back his >response. Let me warn you that people like Mr. X are a dime a dozen, and as >far as I know they are all liars. If you believe him, you are extremely >gullible. Bruce wrote Jed i think you are extremely naive about revolutionary technology and related supression. Any money you "invest" with him is as good as gone. Bruce wrote; Not if we can get him lined up with a foriegn investor in non national security state. That is the plan. To get you up to speed on what really goes on in this country relating to supression and control I suggest you read UFO's and the National Security State by Richard Dolan, http://keyholepublishing.com And Barry and the Boys by Daniel Hopksiker www.barryandtheboys.com Inventor has many remote labs around the country and just a couple have been raided by swat teams. Teh black helicopters were only accasionly around his residence I believe.The Again you are reading too much into this particular inventor. Perhaps rightfully so as I have incomplete info and I shall try to find more information .before conclusions get too far out of hand. Anything worthwhile or significant will be published in Electrifying Times next Inside Edition. Out in a couple of weeks. Nothing on this inventor though. Another inventor with similar technology has already found a small country to move to and is under protection of its government. Bruce > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 30 12:44:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06438; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:40:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:40:20 -0700 Message-ID: <008b01c0e935$ccd4a3c0$ab181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:24:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"vv9WG3.0.Wa1.aoK5x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42917 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Frank; the last few messages you sent me have beenaccidently erased. Perhaps one relating to my proposed visit to Ohil on the week of the 20th of June. Maybe a meeting? You are the retired NASA Engineer right.? Thanks Bruce -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: jlsparber@earthlink.net Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 9:38 AM Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy > > >Frederick Sparber wrote: > >> Yikes Frank, thanks! The interelectrode capacitance (Cgp,Cgk,and Cpk))of a UHF Triode >> has to be down around a femtofarad or less, in order to work at those frequencies. >> :-) >> Can you try something with around a few picofarads? > >Fred, I think the old glass triodes I have are 211's and work at >about 15 MHz at full rating. >My old RAH lists a high frequency triode, the 3CX100A5, with full >rating at 2500 MHz. (pretty sure a lighthouse type??) > >Now, they list the following for the tubes: > > 211 3CX100A5 > > C_in 6.0 uuF 7.0 uuF > > C_gp 14.5 uuF 2.15 uuF > > C_out 5.5 uuF 0.035 uuF > >They did get the C_out way down for the 3CX tube, but I think where >they make their high-frequency money for the lighthouse tubes is in >getting the lead inductance WAY DOWN. I forget if I ran the plates >of my lighthouse tubes at ground or not - I think I may have because >the plates are water cooled. Back in the '60's I managed to make >a coaxial cavity oscillator with two of the tubes that would actually >sorta-cook an egg held near a stub antenna. (I think at about 450 MHz) >Probably why I'm so loopy now! > >As for the experiment, could we learn anything from the following >simple circuit? > > + charge bus at +50 vdc-------| | > | > |A > ________|________ > _________________ 0.0022 uF capacitor > | > | > |B > | > ________|________ > _________________ 0.0022 uF cap. > | > | > | > |G > ground ///////////////////////////////////////////////// > >Now, if I start with the caps discharged and with points A, B, and >G all at ground potential, when I hook the bus to point A, the caps >will charge to 25 volts each so that the potentials will be: > > A = 50 v B = 25 v G = 0 v right? > >What seemed to happen when I put my DMM across B and G was that B >would discharge thru my meter until B was at G potential (zero). >Then, we know that A was still at 50 v, so we have the full 50 v >across the top cap. Now, with no meter in the circuit, the caps >can remain in this condition! The lower cap will not recharge just >because it's in series with the top cap! > >Electrons did flow from ground to point B on the first discharge of >the lower capacitor. These electrons will stay put to hold point >B at ground potential - no matter how long we wait, the lower cap >will not recharge. > >For the "barn roof" model with no air charge transfer involved, >the top plate of the bottom cap would be the underside of the roof. >The bottom plate of the top cap would be the top of the roof. > >When I first discharge the primeval charge separation that occurs >when I put the roof plate in place, that's it - no more charge >transfer will happen - as long as the bus potential stays constant. >If the bus potential oscillates, then we can pull AC power off the >lower plate. Maybe this is what Tesla had in mind? > >If I'm about 7 posts behind on this - that's normal - sigh.... > >Frank Stenger > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 30 13:35:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26748; Wed, 30 May 2001 13:25:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:25:44 -0700 Message-ID: <001c01c0e93c$2083ec00$9c181ad8@oemcomputer> From: "Bruce Meland" To: Subject: Re: Fw: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:09:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ddySB1.0.jX6.8TL5x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42918 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com yes but perhaps some of the technology can be incorporated. Like Tesla used vacuum tubes as part of his space energy device while present inventors are using mosfets tuned to very very very high frequencies. -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 12:38 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated >Bruce - > >You do know that this isn't any kind of vacuum coherer or potential >energy source, don't you? Even JLN and others on that list are clear >on that. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 30 17:32:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09678; Wed, 30 May 2001 17:29:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:29:49 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 19:20:58 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: CF in SF Resent-Message-ID: <"qLjDO3.0.8N2.y1P5x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42919 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Here is an interesting few lines from L. Neil Smith's latest science fiction opus, *Forge of the Elders*: "Well, leaving nine tenths of Earth's gravity behind represents considerable relief in itself. It also serves to keep things--bottles, glasses, one's skeletal calcium--in their places. I'm grateful to our Bureau of Suppressed Technologies that, instead of the better part of a year, the voyage will last only days. To think that America might have had cold fusion decades ago!" "It gored too many well-fed oxen," Mubakkir agreed, "petrol cartels and power collectives, so they buried it and discredited its discoverers." "So much for free enterprise!" The Banker laughed again. Interesting, no? :-) --Mitchell Jones ________________ Quote of the month: "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 31 11:47:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28326; Thu, 31 May 2001 11:40:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 11:40:46 -0700 From: "Matthew Rogers" To: Subject: RE: Egad! No More Martians? Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 11:40:31 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c0ea01$2c1d52c0$1f962640@bear> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <037201c0e5c4$9c746b80$9731b43f@computer> Resent-Message-ID: <"Tyk5W1.0.Mw6.j0f5x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42920 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com As I suspected. An interesting geological feature. Now, could we get a close up of the "glass worms" and the "tractor tracks" ? Matthew Rogers Prove it.. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 31 14:53:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25754; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:44:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:44:29 -0700 Message-ID: <002101c0ea11$82f96560$c995fc9e@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Surfing the Aether - A Radio History & Technology Timeline Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:37:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0E9E7.9456AF40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"Vd76q.0.BI6.yih5x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42921 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0E9E7.9456AF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.northwinds.net/bchris/ ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0E9E7.9456AF40 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Surfing the Aether - A Radio History & Technology Timeline.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Surfing the Aether - A Radio History & Technology Timeline.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.northwinds.net/bchris/ [DOC#3#5] BASEURL=http://www.northwinds.net/bchris/time.htm ORIGURL=time.htm [DOC#3#6] BASEURL=http://www.northwinds.net/bchris/home.html ORIGURL=home.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.northwinds.net/bchris/ Modified=006CAB7011EAC00143 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0E9E7.9456AF40-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 31 18:54:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA31918; Thu, 31 May 2001 18:50:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 18:50:27 -0700 Message-ID: <003a01c0ea34$8929f080$c995fc9e@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:47:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0EA0A.83390AA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"M2eT42.0.Zo7.YJl5x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42922 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0EA0A.83390AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After careful calculation the "free energy" from the roof of Frank's Little Red Barn: Capacitance from roof to ionosphere ~ 5E-15 farad, the capacitance of the 30 meter^2 roof at ~ 3.0 meters height, ~ 1.0E-10 farad. 400,000 volts across this series capacitance gives ~ 20 volts from the roof to ground. Thus energy w = 1/2 CV^2 = 5E-11*400 = 2.0E-8 joule. http://www.aladdinpower.com/products.htm This hand-powered generator can beat that, hands down, so speak. :-) Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0EA0A.83390AA0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Aladdinpower Hand Held Generator Products page.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Aladdinpower Hand Held Generator Products page.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.aladdinpower.com/products.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.aladdinpower.com/products.htm Modified=60D831A732EAC001ED ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0EA0A.83390AA0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 31 19:59:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA21322; Thu, 31 May 2001 19:54:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:54:37 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:00:24 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <003a01c0ea34$8929f080$c995fc9e@computer> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"GoqXT1.0.2D5.iFm5x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42923 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Fred. I suspect the resistive component of capacity(roof-ionosphere) dominates, making the earth-ionosphere look like a high resistance source. Change in earths potential occur over low frequencies, and as you point out the capacity is quite small. By the way, how did you come to the value 5E-15? The total ESR of the capacity(earth-ionosphere) is ~200 ohms. Local conditions vary greatly depending on a variety of things. Power dissipated is 650 megawatts, just to keep things charged. Mostly I think this is accomplished by storms. You should work some resistors into that vac tube model, Fred. Not just the DMM's... K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 8:47 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: jlsparber@earthlink.net; Deubedoo@aol.com Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy After careful calculation the "free energy" from the roof of Frank's Little Red Barn: Capacitance from roof to ionosphere ~ 5E-15 farad, the capacitance of the 30 meter^2 roof at ~ 3.0 meters height, ~ 1.0E-10 farad. 400,000 volts across this series capacitance gives ~ 20 volts from the roof to ground. Thus energy w = 1/2 CV^2 = 5E-11*400 = 2.0E-8 joule. http://www.aladdinpower.com/products.htm This hand-powered generator can beat that, hands down, so speak. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 31 23:46:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA18014; Thu, 31 May 2001 23:45:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:45:45 -0700 Message-ID: <005b01c0ea5d$bc71b300$c995fc9e@computer> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 00:43:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"1Di9w.0.oO4.Gep5x"@mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/42924 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Nagel" To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:00 PM Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy Keith wrote: > > I suspect the resistive component of capacity(roof-ionosphere) > dominates, making the earth-ionosphere look like a high resistance source. > Change in earths potential occur over low frequencies, and > as you point out the capacity is quite small. By the way, how > did you come to the value 5E-15? C = (keo/60 km) * 30 meter^2 ie., the area of Frank's roof, :-) or ~ 1.623E-16 farad/meter^2 > > The total ESR of the capacity(earth-ionosphere) is ~200 ohms. Right. 400, 000 volts/2,000 amperes, is 200 ohms. > Local conditions vary greatly depending on a variety of things. > Power dissipated is 650 megawatts, just to keep things charged. Yes, but Total C (ionospere-earth) is 0.08 farad. thus potential energy (1/2 CV^2 ) is about 6.5 Gigawatts, replenished at 2000 coulombs/sec. > Mostly I think this is accomplished by storms. Or storms are replenished by Solar Insolation. > > You should work some resistors into that vac tube model, Fred. > Not just the DMM's... Just did. :-) Regards, Frederick > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 8:47 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Cc: jlsparber@earthlink.net; Deubedoo@aol.com > Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy > > > After careful calculation the "free energy" from the roof of > Frank's Little Red Barn: > > Capacitance from roof to ionosphere ~ 5E-15 farad, the capacitance of the 30 > meter^2 > roof at ~ 3.0 meters height, ~ 1.0E-10 farad. 400,000 volts across this > series > capacitance gives ~ 20 volts from the roof to ground. > > Thus energy w = 1/2 CV^2 = 5E-11*400 = 2.0E-8 joule. > > http://www.aladdinpower.com/products.htm > > This hand-powered generator can beat that, hands down, so speak. :-) > > Regards, Frederick >