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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 03:23:04 -0400
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Hi Fred.

Capacity is more like .25 farads, total stored energy 20GJ.

There be energy there.

All you need do is complete the circuit (hehe).

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 1:43 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy



----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:00 PM
Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy

Keith wrote:
>
> I suspect the resistive component of capacity(roof-ionosphere)
> dominates, making the earth-ionosphere look like a high resistance source.
> Change in earths potential occur over low frequencies, and
> as you point out the capacity is quite small. By the way, how
> did you come to the value 5E-15?

C =  (keo/60 km) * 30 meter^2 ie., the area of Frank's roof, :-)  or ~
1.623E-16
farad/meter^2
>
> The total ESR of the capacity(earth-ionosphere) is ~200 ohms.

Right.   400, 000 volts/2,000 amperes,  is 200 ohms.
> Local conditions vary greatly depending on a variety of things.
> Power dissipated is 650 megawatts, just to keep things charged.

Yes, but Total C (ionospere-earth) is 0.08 farad. thus
potential energy (1/2 CV^2 ) is about 6.5 Gigawatts, replenished at 2000
coulombs/sec.
> Mostly I think this is accomplished by storms.

Or storms are replenished by Solar Insolation.
>
> You should work some resistors into that vac tube model, Fred.
> Not just the DMM's...

Just did.   :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
> K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 8:47 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net; Deubedoo@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
>
>
> After careful calculation the "free energy" from the roof of
> Frank's Little Red Barn:
>
> Capacitance from roof to ionosphere ~ 5E-15 farad, the capacitance of the
30
> meter^2
> roof at ~ 3.0 meters height, ~ 1.0E-10 farad.  400,000 volts across this
> series
> capacitance gives ~ 20 volts from the roof to ground.
>
> Thus energy w = 1/2 CV^2 = 5E-11*400 = 2.0E-8 joule.
>
>  http://www.aladdinpower.com/products.htm
>
> This hand-powered generator can beat that, hands down, so speak.   :-)
>
> Regards,    Frederick
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 01:07:05 2001
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Quantum Vacuum
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I'm disappointed that my previous posting on this thread failed to 
elicit any response. However Pat Bailey did respond. Quantum Vacuum, 
QVF, are the quantum vacuum fluctuations that Puthoff, et al, have 
theorized about.

With that said, does anyone know of any examples of the use of QVF to 
manipulate matter? As I understand it, Puthoff thinks that QVF can be 
utilized to make a space drive possible. Then there is Tom Bearden.

Tom Bearden told me that his machine was capable of demonstrating OU 
energy production by heating water. Unfortunately Tom has yet to do 
this for either Pat or myself. Tom's endless talking, and failure to 
give a demonstration, irritates Pat.

Another question that comes to mind are the nature of curl free 
magnetic vector potentials, CFMVP? Puthoff was granted a patent about 
two years ago for a communication system that utilized CFMVP. It 
immediately occurred to me, that if these waves could go down a 
conductive medium, wire or glass fibre, it would have the effect of 
doubling the bandwith on the existing Internet. Unfortunately 
Puthoff's patent utilized Josephson Junctures to detect the waves. 
The trouble with Josephson Junctures is the liquid nitrogen required 
to get them to operating temperature. This is a problem which will 
probably make is impossible to commercialize Puthoff's patent. Two 
questions, Can anyone explain the nature of CFMVP  to me. Can anyone 
think of any other detection system other than Josephson Junctures?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 01:16:27 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: RE: Egad! No More Martians?
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>As I suspected.
>An interesting geological feature.
>Now, could we get a close up of the "glass worms" and the "tractor tracks" ?
>
>
>Matthew Rogers
>Prove it..

I have spent many hours listening to Richard Hoagland on the Art Bell 
Program. As he drew out in this book, there is a field full of 
formations in the vicinity of the formation in question, FIQ,. First 
of all the other formations appear to be pyramids and they are placed 
so that their points can be connected with lines to give certain 
mathematical relationships.

In addition, the FIQ is bisymmetrical, this bisymmetrity is 
especially noticable if you factor in the effects of wind erosion.

Ten years ago, in a speach to the UN, Hoagland also predicted that 
the FIQ would prove to be leonian,   My first reaction, on seeing the 
FIQ in Hoagland's book was that it looked to me like the Sphinx.

Bottom line, I believe Hoagland.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 05:27:56 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: eneneerere Barn roof free energy
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	A method to try:

	Make a low leakage high quality set of leyden jars by drying glass
jugs... must heat them to drive off bound water to about 180 F for 45
min... or, better yet, go up to 250 in oven really slowly....
	When these clean jars are dry, the use a GOOD non pigmented
lacquer or shellac with as little junk in it... plasticizers, un reacted
mono mers...
	Use foil for the outside electrode, salt water for inside...
	BE CAREFUL... a bank of these can easily be lethal ...
	Set them up with a mechanical switch with a long glass rod stand
off that performs make and break into the HV secondary of a neon sign
transformer BUT BE SURE TO CUT THE CENTER TAP TO CASE GROUND !!!!!!
 ..... the low voltage promary is you power pick off.

	Use GOOD lightning arrestor and other of the like.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 07:08:18 2001
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 2:23 AM
Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy

Keith wrote:

> Hi Fred.
>
> Capacity is more like .25 farads, total stored energy 20GJ.

That's what yo get if you figure the capacitance based on
20 km to ionosphere instead of 60 km:

(keo/20 km)* area of Earth (5E14m^2).
>
> There be energy there.

Yep. 20GJ is about 5 times the output of a 4 Gigawatt power plant (Palo Verde Nuclear)
or Glenn Canyon Hydro.
>
> All you need do is complete the circuit (hehe).

A thunderstorm comes close to doing that.   :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
> K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 1:43 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy
>
> Keith wrote:
> >
> > I suspect the resistive component of capacity(roof-ionosphere)
> > dominates, making the earth-ionosphere look like a high resistance source.
> > Change in earths potential occur over low frequencies, and
> > as you point out the capacity is quite small. By the way, how
> > did you come to the value 5E-15?
>
> C =  (keo/60 km) * 30 meter^2 ie., the area of Frank's roof, :-)  or ~
> 1.623E-16
> farad/meter^2
> >
> > The total ESR of the capacity(earth-ionosphere) is ~200 ohms.
>
> Right.   400, 000 volts/2,000 amperes,  is 200 ohms.
> > Local conditions vary greatly depending on a variety of things.
> > Power dissipated is 650 megawatts, just to keep things charged.
>
> Yes, but Total C (ionospere-earth) is 0.08 farad. thus
> potential energy (1/2 CV^2 ) is about 6.5 Gigawatts, replenished at 2000
> coulombs/sec.
> > Mostly I think this is accomplished by storms.
>
> Or storms are replenished by Solar Insolation.
> >
> > You should work some resistors into that vac tube model, Fred.
> > Not just the DMM's...
>
> Just did.   :-)
>
> Regards,   Frederick
> >
> > K.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 8:47 PM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net; Deubedoo@aol.com
> > Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
> >
> >
> > After careful calculation the "free energy" from the roof of
> > Frank's Little Red Barn:
> >
> > Capacitance from roof to ionosphere ~ 5E-15 farad, the capacitance of the
> 30
> > meter^2
> > roof at ~ 3.0 meters height, ~ 1.0E-10 farad.  400,000 volts across this
> > series
> > capacitance gives ~ 20 volts from the roof to ground.
> >
> > Thus energy w = 1/2 CV^2 = 5E-11*400 = 2.0E-8 joule.
> >
> >  http://www.aladdinpower.com/products.htm
> >
> > This hand-powered generator can beat that, hands down, so speak.   :-)
> >
> > Regards,    Frederick
> >
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 08:35:59 2001
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Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:32:57 -0400
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http://www.newscientist.com/dailynews/news.jsp?id=ns9999811

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 09:00:19 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Japanese village derails MOX fuel plan
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The big story on Japanese television and the newspaper news last week was 
about a village named Kariwamura, 185 miles northwest of Tokyo, with 4,000 
registered voters. It is close to the Kashiwasaki-Kariwa nuclear plant. In 
1999, the government and Tokyo Electric Power company announced plans to 
burn recycled plutonium-uranium (MOX) fuel in plant #3, a 106 MW BWR 
Toshiba reactor installed in 1987. Last year, a group of citizens became 
concerned about the health, safety and nuclear proliferation problems with 
MOX fuel. In mid-May, the village held a plebiscite and by a narrow margin, 
it rejected the plans. The Tokyo government and the power company went into 
a tizzy, and sent out troops of experts who bowed and scrapped, apologized, 
begged and pleaded on prime-time television special news reports, but the 
opposition group, led by a housewife, is sticking with its decision. The 
Yomiuri and other newspapers quote the power company as saying they will do 
everything they can to "clear up the confusion" and win the trust of local 
people. They say it would be "difficult to proceed" without local support. 
Third party observers say "as a practical matter it would be impossible to 
proceed."

This sort of imbroglio is traditional in Japanese politics and 
organizations, in which power flows up and decisions must be approved at 
lower levels after extensive consultation ("nemawashi"). This tends to 
paralyze the decision making process and derail programs arrived at in 
formal, democratic forums such as the Parliament. Historically, a great of 
mischief has been caused by unauthorized, low level people who took matters 
into their own hands and defied authority, especially the assassination of 
two prime ministers in 1930s, the attempted coup d'etat of 1936, the wars 
in Manchuria and China from 1931 to 1945 and the brief war with Russia in 
1939. On the other hand, this makes for amusing and compelling television 
drama. It is fun to watch bigwigs and technoid power company engineers 
pleading with fat, middle-aged housewives on national television. In the 
U.S., the state of Nevada and citizens groups are fighting to prevent the 
use of the Yucca Mountain nuclear waste repository. According to the law 
that established the repository, the U.S. Congress may vote to overrule the 
state in the year 2004. Such a one-sided exercise of central power would be 
unthinkable in Japan.

According to most sources, MOX fuel will cost 2 to 6 times more than 
conventional uranium fuel. Why they want to use the stuff is beyond me. It 
would seem the voters of Kariwamura have done the power company a big 
favor. See:

http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/npr/katahara.htm

Richard J. Samuels, The Business of the Japanese State: Energy markets in 
Comparative and Historical Perspective (Ithaca, NY: Cornell University 
Press, 1987).

R. Manning, "PACATOM: Nuclear Cooperation in Asia," pp. 221-222.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 09:51:16 2001
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It figures.  :-)

 http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/06/01/tito.report/index.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 10:00:23 2001
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
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Subject: RE: Egad! No More Martians?
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:59:16 -0700
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Thomas,
	Interesting. You dismiss the scientific method, and instead go with what
you believe to be true from what someone else says.
At this point you are not being objective, and are relying on what another
person says.

I agree with quite a few things HR says. In this one instance, this Mesa
looks just like a mesa. If you can trick the camera, you can also trick the
eye.

Humans have the ability to impose familiar patterns on objects that have
none. Clouds, Stars, dirt, stains on fabric, and Chemical formations. It is
a natural part of our brain doing its job.

So all I am saying, is lets photograph the other interesting features with
higher detail. I would like to see the Tubes and the Bushes, which will
probably turn out to be mineral formations.

There is interesting formations on the moon called Rill's, long even hills,
that turn out to be natural geological formations.

There is no conspiracy of keeping information from the public, only a
political agenda to cover their ass so they can keep their funding and jobs.

I think that a Lunar base should come before solar system exploration,
specifically to begin mining fuel on the moon, as well as building a
electromagnetic launcher to launch payloads on the moon into space.

Then we could explore asteroids in our neighborhood. That is when we will
have the ability to explore and live in the whole solar system. Should NASA
do it? No not all, but a good portion of it should be in private industry.

The average nickel-iron asteroid contains more metal than what has been
mined in human history, and the Carbonaceous Chrondite ones will have all
the feed stock for fuel, polymers and still have metal wealth in them too.

If we truly want free energy to do work for us, the best place for that is
in space.

Matthew Rogers
Prove it..

-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com]
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 1:04 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Egad! No More Martians?

>As I suspected.
>An interesting geological feature.
>Now, could we get a close up of the "glass worms" and the "tractor tracks"
?
>
>
>Matthew Rogers
>Prove it..

I have spent many hours listening to Richard Hoagland on the Art Bell
Program. As he drew out in this book, there is a field full of
formations in the vicinity of the formation in question, FIQ,. First
of all the other formations appear to be pyramids and they are placed
so that their points can be connected with lines to give certain
mathematical relationships.

In addition, the FIQ is bisymmetrical, this bisymmetrity is
especially noticable if you factor in the effects of wind erosion.

Ten years ago, in a speach to the UN, Hoagland also predicted that
the FIQ would prove to be leonian,   My first reaction, on seeing the
FIQ in Hoagland's book was that it looked to me like the Sphinx.

Bottom line, I believe Hoagland.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 10:17:12 2001
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Subject: Fw: Tech report on hybrids from Oak Ridge National Lab
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-Subject: Tech report on hybrids from Oak Ridge National Lab


>>The IEEE Vehicular Technology Society News for May 2001 reprints a 6 pp
>>tech report with color pix on power converters, inverters, field weakening
>>for PM motors, capacitors, series and parallel traction drives for
hybrids,
>>switch reluctance (SR) for cheaper, high traction drive.  Original paper
>>was presented at the Transportation Electronics Convergence Proceedings.
>>The author of the paper is Donald J Adams, ORNL <adamsdj ornl.gov>, title
>>"Power Electronics and Electric Machinery--US Government's Role in PNGV."
>
>
>Hi Vati,
>Is there any chance you would have a copy of this report?
>Thanks,,,,
>
>-Otmar
>
>     We lost our corkscrew, and were compelled to live on
>     food and water for several days.      W. C. Fields
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 12:03:31 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <conextom aol.com>
To: "DEACH" <DEACH topica.com>, "vortex" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
Subject: Plans for Gravition Power Plants In The Near Future
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:30:40 -0700
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Plans for Gravition Power Plants In The Near Future

Graviton power plants can be used to replace nuclear power
plants and other forms of unclean power, to make a safer and
cleaner environment in the near future.  To build graviton
power plants international corporations and organizations (i.e.
GTW, UN, Energy Companies) , can work together with
national governments, and local corporations to make new laws
which regulate gravitonic power just like nuclear power, so that
the power can be commercialized and utilized to make
gravitonic power plants.  It may also be possible to make laws
which allow gravitonic power or similar clean forms of power
to be used in local environments such as in the home or in the
car within a legal set of parameters.    The large energy
companies can use their resources to build gravitonic power
plants, and make just as much money off of them as they do in
other forms of energy such as oil.  Also these gravitonic power
plants can be used to make force fields to be used commercially
by security agencies to protect the privacy rights of corporate
executives, government agencies and personnel, and citizens. 

If anyone has an recommendations to improve or clarify the
above notions, please send me an email at tom rhfweb.com






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 12:29:34 2001
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Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:23:44 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: RE: Egad! No More Martians?
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Matthew -

>Humans have the ability to impose familiar patterns on objects that have
>none. Clouds, Stars, dirt, stains on fabric, and Chemical formations. It is
>a natural part of our brain doing its job

Its bilateral symmetry is very good and highly unusual, and still 
tends indicate the possibility of artificiality. I see no change in 
that between the early photos (properly analyzed and geometrically 
corrected) and these latest.

But those 'glass tubes' are so obviously sand dunes in a channel, 
your argument above is ... too gentle? Anyone's brain says it's 
'doing it's job' should be fired on the spot and removed from the 
premesis in the company of security guards if it tells them they're 
looking at a glass covered conduit of some sort.

Of course RH figured out Europa's ocean as a possible life habitat, 
and the 19.5 degree hotspot deal too. Have you ever seen such genius 
mixed with such blank-eyed stupidity? Maybe Newton the astrologer?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 12:42:47 2001
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Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 12:36:10 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: "Black Silicon" for solar cells
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The desire to get "off the grid" by using solar energy (or anything else for that 
matter) has been the fervent wish of many Americans but the high cost and 
other inconveniences of that proposition have been far enough removed from a 
fair tradeoff that taking that drastic step has previously been only justified the 
few for whom economics was not the main issue.

Things could be changing however. The following technology represents a step 
that is said to lead directly to a doubling or more in the possible efficiency of 
silicon cells. See:

http://mazur-www.harvard.edu/research/blacksilicon.html

>From that website:
"The irradiation of silicon surfaces with femtosecond laser pulses in the 
presence of a halogen containing gas transforms the flat, mirror-like surface of a 
silicon wafer into a forest of microscopic spikes. The spiked surface is strongly 
light-absorbing:  the surface of silicon, normally gray and shiny, turns deep 
black. The spikes are tens of micrometers tall and have tip sizes on the order of 
hundreds of nanometers."

Sounds like this structural shape would also make a good substrate for a cold 
cathode if it could be implemented onto a conductor.

The following link is for a Google search that will lead to more information on 
this exiciting step foward in solar utiliztion:

http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=+%22black
+silicon%22+solar+cell&btnG=Google+Search

Regards,

Jones Beene




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 13:55:21 2001
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Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> It figures.  :-)

Hey, Fred, I don't know about you but I think I'm ready to start a
petition to have Tito appointed head of NASA!

Frank Stenger

PS: I've been doing a field research job to determine the average
diameter of "standard" 48" inch, 40 watt fluorescent tubes.
I have one GE tube that's just about 1.50 inch OD.  However, I see
that a batch of Phillips tubes I have are more like 1.48 inch OD.
I plan to use lengths of these tubes as vacuum chambers in
"FRANK'S HIGH VACUUM LAB", now under construction.  I've found a good
way to cut these tubes via a score with a carbide lathe tool bit and
a follow-up final break with a hot-wire heater.  Who says this list
is not about hard science?? :-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 15:40:55 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jun 01, 2001
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:34:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 01 Jun 01   Washington, DC

1. CONGRESS: THIS WAS THE WEEK THAT WASN'T.  With the Democrats
preparing to take over the Senate officially next Wednesday, last
week's Congressional Calendar consisted largely of disruptions,
chaos and cancellations.  On Thursday, the Senate Committee on
Energy and Natural Resources heard Energy Secretary Abraham make
the Administration's case for 90 minutes.  Then, it suddenly
adjourned, sending packing a bevy of industry VIPs, who had just
flown in to testify on the Price-Anderson nuclear reactor
liability issue.  Fortunately, former White House Science Advisor
and APS president D. Allan Bromley, who had been scheduled to
speak about the R&D budget shortcomings, had received a head's up
the day before and was able to cancel his trip in time. 
Witnesses beware: next week probably won't be any better.

2. MISSILE DEFENSE: THESE DAYS, YOU CAN'T EVEN BUY SUPPORTERS. 
The Kremlin this week reiterated its opposition to scrapping the
1972 ABM Treaty.  The White House, however, is trying to arrange 
an arms deal with Russia, which has a way of changing minds (WN
18 May 01).  Not surprisingly, Russia is interested in selling S-
300 missiles to the United States.  Intended to intercept
aircraft, the S-300 has been compared to the US Patriot.  Do we
really need another Patriot?  In any case, persuading Russia to
abandon the ABM Treaty is likely to be easier than selling the
idea to our NATO allies, many of whom regard the ABM Treaty as
"the cornerstone of strategic stability."  But the real problem
will be getting the support of a Senate controlled by Democrats. 
When the Democrats take over next Wednesday, Carl Levin (D-MI)
will chair Armed Services.  Levin stresses the need for R&D and
predicts that a missile defense could not be deployed by the end
of 2004. He scoffed at what he dubbed "the scarecrow defense."  A
White House spokesman had explained that a missile defense need
not  really work, but only create uncertainty (WN 4 May 01). 

3. SPACE RACE: RUSSIA LEADS THE WAY IN COMMERCIALIZING THE ISS. 
"Space," they liked to say in the Reagan administration, "is just
another place to do business."  But who imagined it would be the
Russians that would do it?  Alas, it's hype, not science, that's
being beamed back to Earth.  With space tourism, Pizza Hut and
now Radio Shack, the cash-starved Russians are showing the
Americans that there really are ways to turn a buck on the ISS.

4. THE BELIEF GENE: IS CREDULITY ENCODED INTO HUMAN DNA?  It's
happened again.  A notorious believer in cold fusion has revealed
that he knows that magnet therapy works.  At a meeting on UFOs,
you'll find yourself in a room full of believers in everything
from mental telepathy to homeopathy. Did belief confer some
survival advantage on our primitive ancestors?  Perhaps the
Pleistocene forest was too scary to face without a belief in
magic.  The belief gene may cause more trouble than "fat gene."

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 15:41:58 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Plans for Gravition Power Plants In The Near Future
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 08:32:33 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Thomas D. Clark's message of Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:30:40
-0700:

>Plans for Gravition Power Plants In The Near Future
>
>Graviton power plants can be used to replace nuclear power
>plants and other forms of unclean power, to make a safer and
>cleaner environment in the near future.  

First I would like to see any evidence at all, that such a thing even
exists.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 18:00:16 2001
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Subject: Re: It looks like NASA's underwear is showing
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger suite224.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: It looks like NASA's underwear is showing

Frank Stenger wrote: 
> 
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> > 
> > It figures.  :-)
> 
> Hey, Fred, I don't know about you but I think I'm ready to start a
> petition to have Tito appointed head of NASA!

Think Mr. Goldin would mind?
> 
> Frank Stenger
> 
> PS: I've been doing a field research job to determine the average
> diameter of "standard" 48" inch, 40 watt fluorescent tubes.
> I have one GE tube that's just about 1.50 inch OD.  However, I see
> that a batch of Phillips tubes I have are more like 1.48 inch OD.

A standard T12 tube is supposed to be 12*1/8 inches diameter, thus 1.5 inches.

A Standard T4 is 4*1/8 inches diameter  0.5 inches and....
> I plan to use lengths of these tubes as vacuum chambers in
> "FRANK'S HIGH VACUUM LAB", now under construction.  I've found a good
> way to cut these tubes via a score with a carbide lathe tool bit and
> a follow-up final break with a hot-wire heater.  Who says this list
> is not about hard science?? :-)

Right on, Frank.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  1 23:24:25 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <conextom aol.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
Subject: Re: Plans for Gravition Power Plants In The Near Future-My Proof!
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 02:57:20 -0700
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Thank you for your critique on gravity waves.
I can prove that gravity waves exist in person, by meditation,
telepathy, and telekinesis, but I can not yet show formally exactly how
to generate and test for gravity waves by means of mechanical devices.
I am working on this presently. I do know that secret organization due
use gravity waves and generate them, but the technology is classified,
since one can travel back in time with gravity waves and change history by
means
of remote viewing, as in CIA projects with psycics on remote viewing.
So I am working on getting laws setup to allow for the technologies
that generate gravity waves to be declassified and regulated to save the
environment.
I will list my best understanding of gravity waves below from an email I
sent out:

"Thank you for your comments on the graviton power plants.
You asked me what is a graviton?  A graviton is one of 4 to 6
gravity particles enclosed within quarks which are the building
blocks of atomic particles. Gravitons generate gravity waves
which are smaller and faster than light waves or electrons.
Gravity waves are also called super light which travels about
100,000 times faster than light. Gravity waves may be collected
by accelerating energy to frequencies higher than light with a
Tesla amplifier coil. Gravity particles and waves are also
horizontal waves like sound waves, whereas electromagnetic
waves are vertical. Since there are gravity waves all around us,
gravity waves provide unlimited sources of clean energy. Since
gravity waves are smaller than all atomic particles they may pass
through all substances, even the whole earth. As far as the
power companies are concerned, I believe that they may be
more concerned with the environment in the near future, than
with profits, since if the environment is not healthy, they will
make not profits at all.  So the power companies may consider
cleaner energies, in the near future, just to keep their customers
around to make profits off of them in the long run rather than
the short run. "

I have about a half dozen books on pyramid power, zero point energies,
and gravity  physics which I am reading presently, and I may be able to
piece together the facts and  the technological process.  I may also be able
to
hire researchers to prove the facts in the  near future and then file
patents and
encourage legislation in the U.S. or in other more friendly countries.

Logically to produce gravity waves if they exist, all one needs to do is
generate
waves  smaller than light waves. And to test for gravity waves all one needs
to
do is to be able to measure waves smaller than light waves.

Respectively,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
RHF Business web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Media Productions at
http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Email: tom rhfweb.com

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Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:56:06 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Plans for Gravition Power Plants In The Near Future
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>Plans for Gravition Power Plants In The Near Future
>
If you believe this I have some swamp land in central Minnesota that 
I'd like to sell you. OTOH, the Japanese are planning a gravitron 
conference.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  2 07:58:21 2001
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Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:55:48 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: RE: Egad! No More Martians?
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>Thomas,
>	Interesting. You dismiss the scientific method, and instead 
>go with what
>you believe to be true from what someone else says.
>At this point you are not being objective, and are relying on what another
>person says.

I'm a firm believer in the scientific method. If you are interested, 
I will see what i can do to find a copy of Hoagland's photos and 
drawings of the "city".

>
>I agree with quite a few things HR says. In this one instance, this Mesa
>looks just like a mesa. If you can trick the camera, you can also trick the
>eye.

It's more than just the photograph of the mesa, it's the 
interrelationships between the objects that make up the "city". Also 
it's the agenda of the people who are running NASA, which fits with 
worshipers of Lucifer.

>
>There is interesting formations on the moon called Rill's, long even hills,
>that turn out to be natural geological formations.


There are some very interesting features on the moon!

>
>There is no conspiracy of keeping information from the public, only a
>political agenda to cover their ass so they can keep their funding and jobs.

No Conspiracy! We fought them for 20 years to drag this information out!

>
>I think that a Lunar base should come before solar system exploration,
>specifically to begin mining fuel on the moon, as well as building a
>electromagnetic launcher to launch payloads on the moon into space.

That assumes that the IG is going to allow us off of this planet.

>
>Then we could explore asteroids in our neighborhood. That is when we will
>have the ability to explore and live in the whole solar system. Should NASA
>do it? No not all, but a good portion of it should be in private industry.

Don't hold you breath waiting for NASA to do it. They have dragged 
their feet and managed to do every thing in a manner that is so 
expensive that we could never afford it in any case.

>
>The average nickel-iron asteroid contains more metal than what has been
>mined in human history, and the Carbonaceous Chrondite ones will have all
>the feed stock for fuel, polymers and still have metal wealth in them too.

I agree, but nothing is going to happen until we have a cheap method 
of getting things into stable earth orbit.

>If we truly want free energy to do work for us, the best place for that is
>in space.
>
>Matthew Rogers
>Prove it..
>
>
>Bottom line, I believe Hoagland.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  2 12:26:38 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>, <knagel@gis.net>, <tom@rhfweb.com>
Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:47:49 -0700
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I think you serious tinkerers would save a lot of time and money if you
purchased the recent published book "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold
Electricity by Dr. Peter Lindemann for about $37, includes shipping and
handling. It can be purchased through their web site http://free-energy.cc
It has most of the info on how to build a recieving one with some recent
discovered Tesla and Gray patents and notes. .Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net <jlsparber@earthlink.net>
Date: Friday, June 01, 2001 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy


>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 2:23 AM
>Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy
>
>Keith wrote:
>
>> Hi Fred.
>>
>> Capacity is more like .25 farads, total stored energy 20GJ.
>
>That's what yo get if you figure the capacitance based on
>20 km to ionosphere instead of 60 km:
>
>(keo/20 km)* area of Earth (5E14m^2).
>>
>> There be energy there.
>
>Yep. 20GJ is about 5 times the output of a 4 Gigawatt power plant (Palo
Verde Nuclear)
>or Glenn Canyon Hydro.
>>
>> All you need do is complete the circuit (hehe).
>
>A thunderstorm comes close to doing that.   :-)
>
>Regards,   Frederick
>>
>> K.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
>> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 1:43 AM
>> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>> Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
>> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:00 PM
>> Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy
>>
>> Keith wrote:
>> >
>> > I suspect the resistive component of capacity(roof-ionosphere)
>> > dominates, making the earth-ionosphere look like a high resistance
source.
>> > Change in earths potential occur over low frequencies, and
>> > as you point out the capacity is quite small. By the way, how
>> > did you come to the value 5E-15?
>>
>> C =  (keo/60 km) * 30 meter^2 ie., the area of Frank's roof, :-)  or ~
>> 1.623E-16
>> farad/meter^2
>> >
>> > The total ESR of the capacity(earth-ionosphere) is ~200 ohms.
>>
>> Right.   400, 000 volts/2,000 amperes,  is 200 ohms.
>> > Local conditions vary greatly depending on a variety of things.
>> > Power dissipated is 650 megawatts, just to keep things charged.
>>
>> Yes, but Total C (ionospere-earth) is 0.08 farad. thus
>> potential energy (1/2 CV^2 ) is about 6.5 Gigawatts, replenished at 2000
>> coulombs/sec.
>> > Mostly I think this is accomplished by storms.
>>
>> Or storms are replenished by Solar Insolation.
>> >
>> > You should work some resistors into that vac tube model, Fred.
>> > Not just the DMM's...
>>
>> Just did.   :-)
>>
>> Regards,   Frederick
>> >
>> > K.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
>> > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 8:47 PM
>> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>> > Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net; Deubedoo@aol.com
>> > Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
>> >
>> >
>> > After careful calculation the "free energy" from the roof of
>> > Frank's Little Red Barn:
>> >
>> > Capacitance from roof to ionosphere ~ 5E-15 farad, the capacitance of
the
>> 30
>> > meter^2
>> > roof at ~ 3.0 meters height, ~ 1.0E-10 farad.  400,000 volts across
this
>> > series
>> > capacitance gives ~ 20 volts from the roof to ground.
>> >
>> > Thus energy w = 1/2 CV^2 = 5E-11*400 = 2.0E-8 joule.
>> >
>> >  http://www.aladdinpower.com/products.htm
>> >
>> > This hand-powered generator can beat that, hands down, so speak.   :-)
>> >
>> > Regards,    Frederick
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  2 13:38:27 2001
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Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>; <knagel@gis.net>; <tom@rhfweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy

Bruce,

I think you would've been better off to have spent that $37.00 plus S & H on a
"Shrink".  :-)

Regards,   Frederick


> I think you serious tinkerers would save a lot of time and money if you
> purchased the recent published book "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold
> Electricity by Dr. Peter Lindemann for about $37, includes shipping and
> handling. It can be purchased through their web site http://free-energy.cc
> It has most of the info on how to build a recieving one with some recent
> discovered Tesla and Gray patents and notes. .Bruce
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net <jlsparber@earthlink.net>
> Date: Friday, June 01, 2001 7:09 AM
> Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
>
>
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
> >To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> >Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 2:23 AM
> >Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy
> >
> >Keith wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Fred.
> >>
> >> Capacity is more like .25 farads, total stored energy 20GJ.
> >
> >That's what yo get if you figure the capacitance based on
> >20 km to ionosphere instead of 60 km:
> >
> >(keo/20 km)* area of Earth (5E14m^2).
> >>
> >> There be energy there.
> >
> >Yep. 20GJ is about 5 times the output of a 4 Gigawatt power plant (Palo
> Verde Nuclear)
> >or Glenn Canyon Hydro.
> >>
> >> All you need do is complete the circuit (hehe).
> >
> >A thunderstorm comes close to doing that.   :-)
> >
> >Regards,   Frederick
> >>
> >> K.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> >> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 1:43 AM
> >> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >> Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
> >> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:00 PM
> >> Subject: RE: Barn roof free energy
> >>
> >> Keith wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I suspect the resistive component of capacity(roof-ionosphere)
> >> > dominates, making the earth-ionosphere look like a high resistance
> source.
> >> > Change in earths potential occur over low frequencies, and
> >> > as you point out the capacity is quite small. By the way, how
> >> > did you come to the value 5E-15?
> >>
> >> C =  (keo/60 km) * 30 meter^2 ie., the area of Frank's roof, :-)  or ~
> >> 1.623E-16
> >> farad/meter^2
> >> >
> >> > The total ESR of the capacity(earth-ionosphere) is ~200 ohms.
> >>
> >> Right.   400, 000 volts/2,000 amperes,  is 200 ohms.
> >> > Local conditions vary greatly depending on a variety of things.
> >> > Power dissipated is 650 megawatts, just to keep things charged.
> >>
> >> Yes, but Total C (ionospere-earth) is 0.08 farad. thus
> >> potential energy (1/2 CV^2 ) is about 6.5 Gigawatts, replenished at 2000
> >> coulombs/sec.
> >> > Mostly I think this is accomplished by storms.
> >>
> >> Or storms are replenished by Solar Insolation.
> >> >
> >> > You should work some resistors into that vac tube model, Fred.
> >> > Not just the DMM's...
> >>
> >> Just did.   :-)
> >>
> >> Regards,   Frederick
> >> >
> >> > K.
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 8:47 PM
> >> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >> > Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net; Deubedoo@aol.com
> >> > Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > After careful calculation the "free energy" from the roof of
> >> > Frank's Little Red Barn:
> >> >
> >> > Capacitance from roof to ionosphere ~ 5E-15 farad, the capacitance of
> the
> >> 30
> >> > meter^2
> >> > roof at ~ 3.0 meters height, ~ 1.0E-10 farad.  400,000 volts across
> this
> >> > series
> >> > capacitance gives ~ 20 volts from the roof to ground.
> >> >
> >> > Thus energy w = 1/2 CV^2 = 5E-11*400 = 2.0E-8 joule.
> >> >
> >> >  http://www.aladdinpower.com/products.htm
> >> >
> >> > This hand-powered generator can beat that, hands down, so speak.   :-)
> >> >
> >> > Regards,    Frederick
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  2 17:22:02 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <conextom aol.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "DEACH" <DEACH@topica.com>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
Subject: 14x10^12EV=Gravity Waves by smashing Quarks created from smashing Protons
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:55:10 -0700
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14x10^12EV=Gravity Waves by smashing Quarks created from smashing Protons

In order to generate gravity waves one may smash protons together at 14
x10^8 EV to
create quarks, and then smashing quarks together at 14 x 10^12 EV to create
gravitons.
When gravitons leave a quark they create gravity waves. One may simply use a
coil and a
magnet to accelerate the energy from a battery or capacitor to the higher
energy level
mentioned above to create gravity waves. Also electric waves may be
considered as  1
dimensional rotations of photons (a disk) and magnetic waves may be
considered as 2
dimensional rotations of photons ( a sphere), and hence gravity waves may be
considered
3 dimensional rotations of photons ( a fractal\toroid\spiral?).There may be
anywhere from
6 to 16 gravitons in a quark. I discovered the above information by noticing
that the size
of a electron is 10cm^-8,  the size of a qaurk is 10cm ^ -12, the size of a
Graviton is 10cm
^ -13. Since 14 x 10^8EV may be used to smash protons, and electrons are 4
to 5 larger
than gravitons, then one must increase the energy by 4 to 5 times.  Also
certain thoughts (probabilities of belief and intensity) and images or
geometries may also excite qaurks to create gravity waves.

Respectively,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
RHF Business web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Media Productions at
http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Email: tom rhfweb.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  2 17:39:17 2001
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Subject: 14x10^12EV=Gravity Waves by smashing Quarks by smashing Protons
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14x10^12EV=Gravity Waves by smashing Quarks by smashing Protons

In order to generate gravity waves one may smash protons togethor at 14
x10^8 EV to
create quarks, and then smashing quarks togethor at 14 x 10^12 EV to create
gravitons.
When gravitons leave a quark the create gravity waves. One may simply use a
coil and a
magnetic to accelerte the energy from a battery or capacitor to the highe
energy level
mentioned above to create gravity waves. Also electric waves may be
considered as  1
dimensional rotations of photons (a disk) and magnetic waves may be
considered 2
dimeinsonal rotatios of photons ( a sphere), and hence gravity waves may be
considered 3
dimensional rotations of photons ( a fractal\toroid\spiral?).There may be
anyhwere from 6
to 16 gravitons in a quark. I discovered the above information by noticing
that the size of
a electron is 10cm^-8,  the size of a qaurk is 10cm ^ -12, the size of a
Graviton is 10cm ^ -
13. Since 14 x 10^8EV may be used to smash protons, and electrons are 4 to 5
larger than
gravitons, then one must increase the energy by 4 to 5 times.Also
certain thoughts (probabilities of belief and intensity) and images or
geometries may also excite qaurks to create gravity waves.

Respectively,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
RHF Business web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Media Productions at
http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Email: tom rhfweb.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  2 19:28:39 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Plans for Gravition Power Plants In The Near Future-My Proof!
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 12:27:25 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Thomas D. Clark's message of Sat, 2 Jun 2001 02:57:20
-0700:
[snip]
>"Thank you for your comments on the graviton power plants.
>You asked me what is a graviton?  A graviton is one of 4 to 6
>gravity particles enclosed within quarks which are the building
>blocks of atomic particles. Gravitons generate gravity waves
>which are smaller and faster than light waves or electrons.

How big is a light wave?

>Gravity waves are also called super light which travels about
>100,000 times faster than light. Gravity waves may be collected
>by accelerating energy to frequencies  with a
>Tesla amplifier coil. 

What is a frequency "higher than light", or are you referring to
frequencies high than that of visible light?
[snip]
>Gravity particles and waves are also
>horizontal waves like sound waves, whereas electromagnetic
>waves are vertical. 

No, the orientation of electromagnetic waves depends on the orientation
of the transmitting antenna (for radio at least).

>Since there are gravity waves all around us,
>gravity waves provide unlimited sources of clean energy. Since
>gravity waves are smaller than all atomic particles they may pass
>through all substances, even the whole earth. 


Then they will probably also pass right through your detector, no?
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

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Subj:   Fw: Candidate for universal gravitational glue =20
Date:   6/2/01 11:41:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time   =20
From:=A0 =A0 etimes teleport.com (Bruce Meland)
To:=A0 =A0 tom rhfweb.com
CC:=A0 =A0 conextom aol.com
   =20
Hi Tom I believe some form of these neutrinos are the gravity particles. Bru=
ce


Candidate for universal gravitational glue=20


UPI Science News Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT TAKAYAMA, Japan, June 5 (UPI) -=
=20
Researchers say they have identifed what may be the unseen gravitational glu=
e=20
_ the so-called dark matter responsible in part for the evolution of the=20
universe from the moment of its birth: neutrinos. A serious candidate for=20
this glue, neutrinos are invisible, sub- atomic particles, created at the=20
time of the Big Bang, that stream through the Earth, people and everything=20
else unfettered. The groundbreaking discovery, announced Friday in Japan by=20
an international team of scientists, was that neutrinos have mass. Because=20
the particles fill the universe, scientists say, collectively they may have=20
the force to reverse its expansive course to cause the ``Big Crunch.'' So=20
fundamental a discovery, they said at Neutrino '98, an international physics=
=20
conference in Takayama, Japan, could help explain baffling puzzles about the=
=20
nature of matter and the formation of the universe after the Big Bang. The=20
discovery was the result of a two year, $100 million experiment by an=20
international team of scientists. Dr. John G. Learned, a University of Hawai=
i=20
physicist and one of the lead researchers, told United Press International,=20
the discovery means neutrinos may account for the many gravitational forces=20
apparent in astronomical observations that no one has ever been able to=20
explain. ``This will go down as perhaps the one most important discovery in=20
science in the decade,'' he said Thursday. ``It means that neutrinos are=20
surely one of the more massive components of the universe.'' Dr. David=20
Casper, a University of California-Irvine physicist and another team member,=
=20
agreed, asserting the finding will help scientists understand ``how galaxies=
=20
and other large scale structures in the universe interact gravitationally.''=
=20
Until now, he said, scientists have been puzzled about the movements of the=20
heavens, knowing that something was missing from their calculations, and=20
describing the unknown variable as ``dark'' or ``missing'' matter. This=20
discovery, Learned said, suggests that neutrinos have an aggregate=20
gravitational influence that may eventually be sufficient to reverse the=20
universal expansion triggered by the Big Bang and cause a ``Big Crunch.''=20
``The discovery of neutrino mass is intimately connected with both the=20
origins and ultimate fate of the universe,'' Casper said. ``We suspected but=
=20
did not know that neutrinos had tiny mass. We didn't think of them as making=
=20
up a part of our world, but in fact, the universe is full of neutrinos. Ever=
y=20
cubic centimeter of the universe has about 200 or so neutrinos, which are=20
left over from the Big Bang.'' The finding may also fill in the blanks in=20
equations aimed at solving how particles acquire mass, ``one of the deepest=20
unsolved questions of particle physics,'' Casper said. ``This will help=20
astronomers understand something that puzzles them greatly _ why is there=20
more gravitational force than they expect from the amount of stuff the can=20
see out there,'' Casper added. Learned says neutrinos, until now thought to=20
have no mass, may on the whole turn out to make up ``most of the mass of the=
=20
universe. '' The discovery was made at Super-Kamiokande Observatory, the=20
world's largest elementary particle detector, northwest of Tokyo. Scientists=
=20
from 23 institutions in the United States, Japan, Poland and Korea took part=
.=20
The team included Dr. Henry Sobel, also of UC-Irvine. Neutrinos, similar to=20
electrons, have long been known to be a fundamental constituent of nature.=20
But unlike electrons, neutrinos carry no electric charge, and thus can pass=20
unimpeded through great distances in matter. This property, along with their=
=20
invisibility, has made them extremely difficult to observe. Scientists have=20
suspected for years that neutrinos might have a very small, but non-zero,=20
mass, but never before could prove it. Casper said the discovery won't=20
``change the life of the average Joe'' but has profound implications for=20
physicists and astrophysicsts. The finding also suggests, he said, that the=20
gravitational influence of neutrinos may have been a catalyst for the=20
collapse of the diffuse primordial gas into more dense regions that=20
eventually spawned galaxies, stars and planets. UC-Irvine issued a statement=
=20
on behalf of its scientists asserting that the experiment had yielded=20
``results that are outside the standard theory of particle physics, which=20
describes the fundamental constituents of matter and their interactions.=20
Until now, there has been no firm evidence that neutrinos possess mass.'' Th=
e=20
evidence was based upon studies of neutrinos created when cosmic rays bombar=
d=20
the Earth's upper atmosphere, producing storms of secndary particles that=20
rain down constantly from the heavens. Most neutrinos pass through the entir=
e=20
planet unscathed, but have been detected passing through the Super-Kamiokand=
e=20
group's 50,000-ton tank of purified water 1,000 meters beneath the surface.=20
The scientists noticed the neutrinos oscillated, or changed from one type of=
=20
neutrino to another, something that could occur only if they have mass. They=
=20
say in a joint statement that neutrinos ``must now be incorporated into the=20
theoretical models of the structure of matter and that astrophysicists=20
concerned with finding the 'missing' or 'dark matter' in the universe must=20
now consider the neutrino as a serious candidate.'' Neutrinos were created i=
n=20
vast quantities in the first instants after the Big Bang and permeate the=20
universe, Casper said. ``Because these leftover neutrinos are everywhere,=20
even if they have a tiny mass, when you add them up, it adds up to something=
=20
significant in terms of how galaxies and large scale structures in the=20
universe gravitationally interact,'' Casper said. ``You have a zillion thing=
s=20
which by themselves have almost no mass, but when you add them all up, they=20
can have a large scale. This may now guide theorists in answering the big=20
question _ why does everything have mass?'' Learned said, ``this is=20
fundamental science on the most basic scale,'' and its practical application=
s=20
might not become evident for many years. Copyright 1998 by United Press=20
International All rights reserved=20

Respectively,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
RHF Business web site at: <A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/">http://www.rhfw=
eb.com/</A>
Personal website at <A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">http://www.rh=
fweb.com/personal</A>
New Age Media Productions at
<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage">http://www.rhfweb.com/newage</A>
Email: <A HREF=3D"mailto:tom rhfweb.com">tom@rhfweb.com</A>


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Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>Subj:   <B>Fw: Candidate=20=
for universal gravitational glue</B> =20
<BR>Date:   6/2/01 11:41:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time   =20
<BR><I>From:=A0 =A0 etimes teleport.com (Bruce Meland)
<BR>To:=A0 =A0 tom rhfweb.com
<BR>CC:=A0 =A0 conextom aol.com
<BR></I>   =20
<BR>Hi Tom I believe some form of these neutrinos are the gravity particles.=
 Bruce
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D6 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0"><B>Candidate for universal gravitational glue=20
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0"></B>UPI Science News Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT TAKAYAMA, J=
apan, June 5 (UPI) -=20
<BR>Researchers say they have identifed what may be the unseen gravitational=
 glue=20
<BR>_ the so-called dark matter responsible in part for the evolution of the=
=20
<BR>universe from the moment of its birth: neutrinos. A serious candidate fo=
r=20
<BR>this glue, neutrinos are invisible, sub- atomic particles, created at th=
e=20
<BR>time of the Big Bang, that stream through the Earth, people and everythi=
ng=20
<BR>else unfettered. The groundbreaking discovery, announced Friday in Japan=
 by=20
<BR>an international team of scientists, was that neutrinos have mass. Becau=
se=20
<BR>the particles fill the universe, scientists say, collectively they may h=
ave=20
<BR>the force to reverse its expansive course to cause the ``Big Crunch.'' S=
o=20
<BR>fundamental a discovery, they said at Neutrino '98, an international phy=
sics=20
<BR>conference in Takayama, Japan, could help explain baffling puzzles about=
 the=20
<BR>nature of matter and the formation of the universe after the Big Bang. T=
he=20
<BR>discovery was the result of a two year, $100 million experiment by an=20
<BR>international team of scientists. Dr. John G. Learned, a University of H=
awaii=20
<BR>physicist and one of the lead researchers, told United Press Internation=
al,=20
<BR>the discovery means neutrinos may account for the many gravitational for=
ces=20
<BR>apparent in astronomical observations that no one has ever been able to=20
<BR>explain. ``This will go down as perhaps the one most important discovery=
 in=20
<BR>science in the decade,'' he said Thursday. ``It means that neutrinos are=
=20
<BR>surely one of the more massive components of the universe.'' Dr. David=20
<BR>Casper, a University of California-Irvine physicist and another team mem=
ber,=20
<BR>agreed, asserting the finding will help scientists understand ``how gala=
xies=20
<BR>and other large scale structures in the universe interact gravitationall=
y.''=20
<BR>Until now, he said, scientists have been puzzled about the movements of=20=
the=20
<BR>heavens, knowing that something was missing from their calculations, and=
=20
<BR>describing the unknown variable as ``dark'' or ``missing'' matter. This=20
<BR>discovery, Learned said, suggests that neutrinos have an aggregate=20
<BR>gravitational influence that may eventually be sufficient to reverse the=
=20
<BR>universal expansion triggered by the Big Bang and cause a ``Big Crunch.'=
'=20
<BR>``The discovery of neutrino mass is intimately connected with both the=20
<BR>origins and ultimate fate of the universe,'' Casper said. ``We suspected=
 but=20
<BR>did not know that neutrinos had tiny mass. We didn't think of them as ma=
king=20
<BR>up a part of our world, but in fact, the universe is full of neutrinos.=20=
Every=20
<BR>cubic centimeter of the universe has about 200 or so neutrinos, which ar=
e=20
<BR>left over from the Big Bang.'' The finding may also fill in the blanks i=
n=20
<BR>equations aimed at solving how particles acquire mass, ``one of the deep=
est=20
<BR>unsolved questions of particle physics,'' Casper said. ``This will help=20
<BR>astronomers understand something that puzzles them greatly _ why is ther=
e=20
<BR>more gravitational force than they expect from the amount of stuff the c=
an=20
<BR>see out there,'' Casper added. Learned says neutrinos, until now thought=
 to=20
<BR>have no mass, may on the whole turn out to make up ``most of the mass of=
 the=20
<BR>universe. '' The discovery was made at Super-Kamiokande Observatory, the=
=20
<BR>world's largest elementary particle detector, northwest of Tokyo. Scient=
ists=20
<BR>from 23 institutions in the United States, Japan, Poland and Korea took=20=
part.=20
<BR>The team included Dr. Henry Sobel, also of UC-Irvine. Neutrinos, similar=
 to=20
<BR>electrons, have long been known to be a fundamental constituent of natur=
e.=20
<BR>But unlike electrons, neutrinos carry no electric charge, and thus can p=
ass=20
<BR>unimpeded through great distances in matter. This property, along with t=
heir=20
<BR>invisibility, has made them extremely difficult to observe. Scientists h=
ave=20
<BR>suspected for years that neutrinos might have a very small, but non-zero=
,=20
<BR>mass, but never before could prove it. Casper said the discovery won't=20
<BR>``change the life of the average Joe'' but has profound implications for=
=20
<BR>physicists and astrophysicsts. The finding also suggests, he said, that=20=
the=20
<BR>gravitational influence of neutrinos may have been a catalyst for the=20
<BR>collapse of the diffuse primordial gas into more dense regions that=20
<BR>eventually spawned galaxies, stars and planets. UC-Irvine issued a state=
ment=20
<BR>on behalf of its scientists asserting that the experiment had yielded=20
<BR>``results that are outside the standard theory of particle physics, whic=
h=20
<BR>describes the fundamental constituents of matter and their interactions.=
=20
<BR>Until now, there has been no firm evidence that neutrinos possess mass.'=
' The=20
<BR>evidence was based upon studies of neutrinos created when cosmic rays bo=
mbard=20
<BR>the Earth's upper atmosphere, producing storms of secndary particles tha=
t=20
<BR>rain down constantly from the heavens. Most neutrinos pass through the e=
ntire=20
<BR>planet unscathed, but have been detected passing through the Super-Kamio=
kande=20
<BR>group's 50,000-ton tank of purified water 1,000 meters beneath the surfa=
ce.=20
<BR>The scientists noticed the neutrinos oscillated, or changed from one typ=
e of=20
<BR>neutrino to another, something that could occur only if they have mass.=20=
They=20
<BR>say in a joint statement that neutrinos ``must now be incorporated into=20=
the=20
<BR>theoretical models of the structure of matter and that astrophysicists=20
<BR>concerned with finding the 'missing' or 'dark matter' in the universe mu=
st=20
<BR>now consider the neutrino as a serious candidate.'' Neutrinos were creat=
ed in=20
<BR>vast quantities in the first instants after the Big Bang and permeate th=
e=20
<BR>universe, Casper said. ``Because these leftover neutrinos are everywhere=
,=20
<BR>even if they have a tiny mass, when you add them up, it adds up to somet=
hing=20
<BR>significant in terms of how galaxies and large scale structures in the=20
<BR>universe gravitationally interact,'' Casper said. ``You have a zillion t=
hings=20
<BR>which by themselves have almost no mass, but when you add them all up, t=
hey=20
<BR>can have a large scale. This may now guide theorists in answering the bi=
g=20
<BR>question _ why does everything have mass?'' Learned said, ``this is=20
<BR>fundamental science on the most basic scale,'' and its practical applica=
tions=20
<BR>might not become evident for many years. Copyright 1998 by United Press=20
<BR>International All rights reserved=20
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>Respectively,
<BR>
<BR>President, Thomas Clark
<BR>Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
<BR>RHF Business web site at: <A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/">http://www.=
rhfweb.com/</A>
<BR>Personal website at <A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">http://ww=
w.rhfweb.com/personal</A>
<BR>New Age Media Productions at
<BR><A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage">http://www.rhfweb.com/newage</A=
>
<BR>Email: <A HREF=3D"mailto:tom rhfweb.com">tom@rhfweb.com</A>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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Subject: Fw: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:25:53 -0700
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hi Tom I believe some form of these neutrinos are the gravity particles. Bru=
ce


Candidate for universal gravitational glue=20
UPI Science News Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT=20
TAKAYAMA, Japan, June 5 (UPI) - Researchers say they have identifed what may=
 be the unseen gravitational glue _ the so-called dark matter responsible in=
 part for the evolution of the universe from the moment of its birth: neutri=
nos.=20

A serious candidate for this glue, neutrinos are invisible, sub- atomic part=
icles, created at the time of the Big Bang, that stream through the Earth, p=
eople and everything else unfettered.=20

The groundbreaking discovery, announced Friday in Japan by an international=20=
team of scientists, was that neutrinos have mass. Because the particles fill=
 the universe, scientists say, collectively they may have the force to rever=
se its expansive course to cause the ``Big Crunch.''=20

So fundamental a discovery, they said at Neutrino '98, an international phys=
ics conference in Takayama, Japan, could help explain baffling puzzles about=
 the nature of matter and the formation of the universe after the Big Bang.=20

The discovery was the result of a two year, $100 million experiment by an in=
ternational team of scientists.=20

Dr. John G. Learned, a University of Hawaii physicist and one of the lead re=
searchers, told United Press International, the discovery means neutrinos ma=
y account for the many gravitational forces apparent in astronomical observa=
tions that no one has ever been able to explain.=20

``This will go down as perhaps the one most important discovery in science i=
n the decade,'' he said Thursday. ``It means that neutrinos are surely one o=
f the more massive components of the universe.''=20

Dr. David Casper, a University of California-Irvine physicist and another te=
am member, agreed, asserting the finding will help scientists understand ``h=
ow galaxies and other large scale structures in the universe interact gravit=
ationally.''=20

Until now, he said, scientists have been puzzled about the movements of the=20=
heavens, knowing that something was missing from their calculations, and des=
cribing the unknown variable as ``dark'' or ``missing'' matter. This discove=
ry, Learned said, suggests that neutrinos have an aggregate gravitational in=
fluence that may eventually be sufficient to reverse the universal expansion=
 triggered by the Big Bang and cause a ``Big Crunch.'' ``The discovery of ne=
utrino mass is intimately connected with both the origins and ultimate fate=20=
of the universe,'' Casper said. ``We suspected but did not know that neutrin=
os had tiny mass. We didn't think of them as making up a part of our world,=20=
but in fact, the universe is full of neutrinos. Every cubic centimeter of th=
e universe has about 200 or so neutrinos, which are left over from the Big B=
ang.''=20

The finding may also fill in the blanks in equations aimed at solving how pa=
rticles acquire mass, ``one of the deepest unsolved questions of particle ph=
ysics,'' Casper said. ``This will help astronomers understand something that=
 puzzles them greatly _ why is there more gravitational force than they expe=
ct from the amount of stuff the can see out there,'' Casper added. Learned s=
ays neutrinos, until now thought to have no mass, may on the whole turn out=20=
to make up ``most of the mass of the universe. ''=20

The discovery was made at Super-Kamiokande Observatory, the world's largest=20=
elementary particle detector, northwest of Tokyo. Scientists from 23 institu=
tions in the United States, Japan, Poland and Korea took part. The team incl=
uded Dr. Henry Sobel, also of UC-Irvine.=20

Neutrinos, similar to electrons, have long been known to be a fundamental co=
nstituent of nature. But unlike electrons, neutrinos carry no electric charg=
e, and thus can pass unimpeded through great distances in matter. This prope=
rty, along with their invisibility, has made them extremely difficult to obs=
erve. Scientists have suspected for years that neutrinos might have a very s=
mall, but non-zero, mass, but never before could prove it.=20

Casper said the discovery won't ``change the life of the average Joe'' but h=
as profound implications for physicists and astrophysicsts. The finding also=
 suggests, he said, that the gravitational influence of neutrinos may have b=
een a catalyst for the collapse of the diffuse primordial gas into more dens=
e regions that eventually spawned galaxies, stars and planets.=20

UC-Irvine issued a statement on behalf of its scientists asserting that the=20=
experiment had yielded ``results that are outside the standard theory of par=
ticle physics, which describes the fundamental constituents of matter and th=
eir interactions. Until now, there has been no firm evidence that neutrinos=20=
possess mass.'' The evidence was based upon studies of neutrinos created whe=
n cosmic rays bombard the Earth's upper atmosphere, producing storms of secn=
dary particles that rain down constantly from the heavens. Most neutrinos pa=
ss through the entire planet unscathed, but have been detected passing throu=
gh the Super-Kamiokande group's 50,000-ton tank of purified water 1,000 mete=
rs beneath the surface.=20

The scientists noticed the neutrinos oscillated, or changed from one type of=
 neutrino to another, something that could occur only if they have mass. The=
y say in a joint statement that neutrinos ``must now be incorporated into th=
e theoretical models of the structure of matter and that astrophysicists con=
cerned with finding the 'missing' or 'dark matter' in the universe must now=20=
consider the neutrino as a serious candidate.''=20

Neutrinos were created in vast quantities in the first instants after the Bi=
g Bang and permeate the universe, Casper said.=20

``Because these leftover neutrinos are everywhere, even if they have a tiny=20=
mass, when you add them up, it adds up to something significant in terms of=20=
how galaxies and large scale structures in the universe gravitationally inte=
ract,'' Casper said. ``You have a zillion things which by themselves have al=
most no mass, but when you add them all up, they can have a large scale. Thi=
s may now guide theorists in answering the big question _ why does everythin=
g have mass?''=20

Learned said, ``this is fundamental science on the most basic scale,'' and i=
ts practical applications might not become evident for many years.=20

Copyright 1998 by United Press International All rights reserved=20


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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi Tom I believe some form of these neut=
rinos=20
are the gravity particles. Bruce</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<H1>
<CENTER>Candidate for universal gravitational glue </CENTER></A></H1>UPI Sci=
ence=20
News Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT=20
<P>TAKAYAMA, Japan, June 5 (UPI) - Researchers say they have identifed what=20=
may=20
be the unseen gravitational glue _ the so-called dark matter responsible in=20=
part=20
for the evolution of the universe from the moment of its birth: neutrinos.=20
<P>A serious candidate for this glue, neutrinos are invisible, sub- atomic=20
particles, created at the time of the Big Bang, that stream through the Eart=
h,=20
people and everything else unfettered.=20
<P>The groundbreaking discovery, announced Friday in Japan by an internation=
al=20
team of scientists, was that neutrinos have mass. Because the particles fill=
 the=20
universe, scientists say, collectively they may have the force to reverse it=
s=20
expansive course to cause the ``Big Crunch.''=20
<P>So fundamental a discovery, they said at Neutrino '98, an international=20
physics conference in Takayama, Japan, could help explain baffling puzzles a=
bout=20
the nature of matter and the formation of the universe after the Big Bang.=20
<P>The discovery was the result of a two year, $100 million experiment by an=
=20
international team of scientists.=20
<P>Dr. John G. Learned, a University of Hawaii physicist and one of the lead=
=20
researchers, told United Press International, the discovery means neutrinos=20=
may=20
account for the many gravitational forces apparent in astronomical observati=
ons=20
that no one has ever been able to explain.=20
<P>``This will go down as perhaps the one most important discovery in scienc=
e in=20
the decade,'' he said Thursday. ``It means that neutrinos are surely one of=20=
the=20
more massive components of the universe.''=20
<P>Dr. David Casper, a University of California-Irvine physicist and another=
=20
team member, agreed, asserting the finding will help scientists understand `=
`how=20
galaxies and other large scale structures in the universe interact=20
gravitationally.''=20
<P>Until now, he said, scientists have been puzzled about the movements of t=
he=20
heavens, knowing that something was missing from their calculations, and=20
describing the unknown variable as ``dark'' or ``missing'' matter. This=20
discovery, Learned said, suggests that neutrinos have an aggregate gravitati=
onal=20
influence that may eventually be sufficient to reverse the universal expansi=
on=20
triggered by the Big Bang and cause a ``Big Crunch.'' ``The discovery of=20
neutrino mass is intimately connected with both the origins and ultimate fat=
e of=20
the universe,'' Casper said. ``We suspected but did not know that neutrinos=20=
had=20
tiny mass. We didn't think of them as making up a part of our world, but in=20
fact, the universe is full of neutrinos. Every cubic centimeter of the unive=
rse=20
has about 200 or so neutrinos, which are left over from the Big Bang.''=20
<P>The finding may also fill in the blanks in equations aimed at solving how=
=20
particles acquire mass, ``one of the deepest unsolved questions of particle=20
physics,'' Casper said. ``This will help astronomers understand something th=
at=20
puzzles them greatly _ why is there more gravitational force than they expec=
t=20
from the amount of stuff the can see out there,'' Casper added. Learned says=
=20
neutrinos, until now thought to have no mass, may on the whole turn out to m=
ake=20
up ``most of the mass of the universe. ''=20
<P>The discovery was made at Super-Kamiokande Observatory, the world's large=
st=20
elementary particle detector, northwest of Tokyo. Scientists from 23=20
institutions in the United States, Japan, Poland and Korea took part. The te=
am=20
included Dr. Henry Sobel, also of UC-Irvine.=20
<P>Neutrinos, similar to electrons, have long been known to be a fundamental=
=20
constituent of nature. But unlike electrons, neutrinos carry no electric cha=
rge,=20
and thus can pass unimpeded through great distances in matter. This property=
,=20
along with their invisibility, has made them extremely difficult to observe.=
=20
Scientists have suspected for years that neutrinos might have a very small,=20=
but=20
non-zero, mass, but never before could prove it.=20
<P>Casper said the discovery won't ``change the life of the average Joe'' bu=
t=20
has profound implications for physicists and astrophysicsts. The finding als=
o=20
suggests, he said, that the gravitational influence of neutrinos may have be=
en a=20
catalyst for the collapse of the diffuse primordial gas into more dense regi=
ons=20
that eventually spawned galaxies, stars and planets.=20
<P>UC-Irvine issued a statement on behalf of its scientists asserting that t=
he=20
experiment had yielded ``results that are outside the standard theory of=20
particle physics, which describes the fundamental constituents of matter and=
=20
their interactions. Until now, there has been no firm evidence that neutrino=
s=20
possess mass.'' The evidence was based upon studies of neutrinos created whe=
n=20
cosmic rays bombard the Earth's upper atmosphere, producing storms of secnda=
ry=20
particles that rain down constantly from the heavens. Most neutrinos pass=20
through the entire planet unscathed, but have been detected passing through=20=
the=20
Super-Kamiokande group's 50,000-ton tank of purified water 1,000 meters bene=
ath=20
the surface.=20
<P>The scientists noticed the neutrinos oscillated, or changed from one type=
 of=20
neutrino to another, something that could occur only if they have mass. They=
 say=20
in a joint statement that neutrinos ``must now be incorporated into the=20
theoretical models of the structure of matter and that astrophysicists conce=
rned=20
with finding the 'missing' or 'dark matter' in the universe must now conside=
r=20
the neutrino as a serious candidate.''=20
<P>Neutrinos were created in vast quantities in the first instants after the=
 Big=20
Bang and permeate the universe, Casper said.=20
<P>``Because these leftover neutrinos are everywhere, even if they have a ti=
ny=20
mass, when you add them up, it adds up to something significant in terms of=20=
how=20
galaxies and large scale structures in the universe gravitationally interact=
,''=20
Casper said. ``You have a zillion things which by themselves have almost no=20
mass, but when you add them all up, they can have a large scale. This may no=
w=20
guide theorists in answering the big question _ why does everything have mas=
s?''=20

<P>Learned said, ``this is fundamental science on the most basic scale,'' an=
d=20
its practical applications might not become evident for many years.=20
<P>Copyright 1998 by United Press International All rights reserved=20
</P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C0EB4E.6906BE80--

--part1_65.1547c792.284aff04_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  2 22:50:26 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 15:48:46 +1000
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In reply to  ConexTom aol.com's message of Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:46:28 EDT:

>Subj:   Fw: Candidate for universal gravitational glue  
>Date:   6/2/01 11:41:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time    
>From:    etimes teleport.com (Bruce Meland)
>To:    tom rhfweb.com
>CC:    conextom aol.com
>    
>Hi Tom I believe some form of these neutrinos are the gravity particles. Bruce
>
>
>Candidate for universal gravitational glue 
There is no glue, and none needed. The reason
astronomers/astro-physicists think they need one, is because they ignore
the magnetic fields of stars and galaxies.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  3 09:27:12 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Egad! No More Martians?
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:30:26 -0700
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On Friday 01 June 2001 12:23, Rick Monteverde wrote:
> Matthew -
> 
> >Humans have the ability to impose familiar patterns on objects that have
> >none. Clouds, Stars, dirt, stains on fabric, and Chemical formations. It is
> >a natural part of our brain doing its job
> 
> Its bilateral symmetry is very good and highly unusual, and still 
> tends indicate the possibility of artificiality. I see no change in 
> that between the early photos (properly analyzed and geometrically 
> corrected) and these latest.
> 
> But those 'glass tubes' are so obviously sand dunes in a channel, 
> your argument above is ... too gentle? Anyone's brain says it's 
> 'doing it's job' should be fired on the spot and removed from the 
> premesis in the company of security guards if it tells them they're 
> looking at a glass covered conduit of some sort.
> 
> Of course RH figured out Europa's ocean as a possible life habitat, 
> and the 19.5 degree hotspot deal too. Have you ever seen such genius 
> mixed with such blank-eyed stupidity? Maybe Newton the astrologer?
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI


Rick,
	How about the Chinese philosopher who stated
that a way to attack a philosophy was to vilify the 
messsenger.  It is effective.  Look at our American politics
for the last generation.
	You guys from Hawaii know about it too.  I've been
to the Islands.  I have also heard that in some places people
will listen to you for exactly 20 milliseconds and then call
you 'haole' before attacking you, Spanish surname or not.
Blind prejudice, a related anti logical quirk of the human
species, tends to work that same way.
	I lived through the sixties.  People listened to what
they wanted to hear, just like monopolistic capitalist executives.
The only thing that mattered was what they wanted or valued.
They would trash other people's theories as vandalistic
burglars on a midnight requisition expedition would their
victims' apartments.  
	I really do not know whether those glass tubes
exist or not.  I have seen old pictures purporting to be
water pipes on the moon allegedly taken from an early
lunar orbiter with cameras now known to have a resolution
of about a quarter mile......so much grist for the truly gullible,
which this writer is not.  Skepticism is fine, but how about
true and fair evaluation of each side without resorting to
rhetorical tricks known to first year debating students
and old Chinese. 
	Hopefully that will not give you a headache.  You
know, those surfboards must hurt when you wipe out on
a big wave and the old board just then has the perverse
intelligence to come behing you and nail you right behind 
the ear.  Ouch!.....remember that last time?  Looking at the
beach.....there was this swimsuit competition all lined up.
.........so many, and so little time............looked a little tooo
..........oh..............oh-OH..................sonofab___ that hurt. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  3 09:50:02 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:51:16 -0700
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On Saturday 02 June 2001 22:48, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> In reply to  ConexTom aol.com's message of Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:46:28 EDT:
> 
> >Subj:   Fw: Candidate for universal gravitational glue  
> >Date:   6/2/01 11:41:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time    
> >From:    etimes teleport.com (Bruce Meland)
> >To:    tom rhfweb.com
> >CC:    conextom aol.com
> >    
> >Hi Tom I believe some form of these neutrinos are the gravity particles. 
Bruce
> >
> >
> >Candidate for universal gravitational glue 
> There is no glue, and none needed. The reason
> astronomers/astro-physicists think they need one, is because they ignore
> the magnetic fields of stars and galaxies.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> New model hydrogen atom see 
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

Nobody really knows.  What we really need is more data.  The
only way we are going to begin to get that is to go out into space
and look for it.  Ourselves!  On manned expeditions.  We the
human race are going to have to cooperate long enough to
to it together.
	We can argue endlessly and accomplish not really as
much as we think.  We need to go there!  Even if it is just to
cruise around the solar system.  Plenty to see and do right here
in our own system.   We build a ship, a system ship, looking a 
little like the Star Trek Enterprise but with four nacelles instead 
of two.  The saucer can be made to revolve, creating artificial
gravity for the crew while not on watch (duty).  The nacelles can
house very large ionic drives like the Deep Space 1.  Make
them so that they can thrust both forward and backward on
command.  Power it with a strong nuclear reactor.  Equip it with
a large sail to catch interplanetary gases like hydrogen for
use as propellant.  If strong enough, it would be able to use
system bodies with hydrogen atmospheres as 'gas stations'.
Make it large enough for a crew of 250 to 400 to live indefinitely
on it.  Utilize that cold fusion if possible.  The only energy
criterion is that it be usable beyond the orbit of Neptune as
a viable source of life support energy and propulsion
energy.  This is really within our present technology.
It could never land on a planet, but could carry craft that could.
It could be used to prospect asteroids for minerals and outer
atmospheres for gases useful on earth.  It would have to be
compartmented to contain damage from possible hull punctures,
and have redundant systems and personnel for critical needs
and skills.
	It would fire the imagination of generations of people
in the world and bring them the light of hope

Standing Bear



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  3 14:39:37 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Egad! No More Martians?
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Standing B. -

>Hopefully that will not give you a headache.  You
>know, those surfboards must hurt when you wipe out on
>a big wave and the old board just then has the perverse
>intelligence to come behing you and nail you right behind
>the ear.

Dude, I only bodysurf on big waves. No (fiber)glass needed when I fly 
through the big shiny transport tubes on *this* planet, dig?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 08:36:03 +1000
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In reply to  Standing Bear's message of Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:51:16 -0700:
[snip]
>	It would fire the imagination of generations of people
>in the world and bring them the light of hope
[snip]
20 years ago, you would have been right. All that is needed now however
is for the "black" projects to come out of the closet, and reveal that
we already regularly make trips throughout the solar system, and have
bases on both the moon and Mars.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  3 16:06:11 2001
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
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>In reply to  ConexTom aol.com's message of Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:46:28 EDT:
>
>>Subj:   Fw: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
>>Date:   6/2/01 11:41:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>>From:    etimes teleport.com (Bruce Meland)
>>To:    tom rhfweb.com
>>CC:    conextom aol.com
>>
>>Hi Tom I believe some form of these neutrinos are the gravity particles.
>>Bruce
>>
>>
>>Candidate for universal gravitational glue
>There is no glue, and none needed. The reason
>astronomers/astro-physicists think they need one, is because they ignore
>the magnetic fields of stars and galaxies.

***{So the missing mass is the mass of stellar magnetic fields? OK, let's
see some numbers: what is the mass of the sun's magnetic field, for
example? (And please remember: we are yahoos out here, so we need to see
each step in the calculation. :-) --MJ}***

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>New model hydrogen atom see
>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  3 17:47:41 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:35:54 -0500
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The Fair Weather Field strength, E  in Volts/Meter versus altitude, h (kilometers) is
approximated by:

E = 90*e^-3.5h + 40*e^-.22h   (volts/meter)

This gives about 130 volts/meter at sea level and about
1.5 volts/meter at 15 km (49,200 ft, which is the maximum altitude for a
thundercloud).

Somewhere above this the ionosphere reaches a positive potential wrt the earth's
surface.

By no small coincidence the small ion (O2- & H2O-) concentration is about 500/cm^3 at
sea level and 5,000/cm^3 at 15 km.

Now, to see whether an ion will fall toward the earth due
to the gravitational force, Fg or fall up due the field force, Fes = q*E  (newtons):

Fg = 9.8 * mass  = 1.6E-19Coulombs* 1.5 v/m

mass to float = 1.6E-19*1.5/9.8

Thus a water drop must have a mass of 1.6E-19*1.5/9.8
= 2.45E-20 kg, meaning it has to have more than 820,000 H2O molecules in it in order
for it to fall and gain momentum to overcome the higher field gradient so it can rain
on Frank's Little Red Barn roof.

With gutters and a water wheel, the hydropower potential
is much greater than trying to harness the ~ 400 Megawatts from the Earth-Ionosphere
Electrical System that Tesla (and Bruce's "Mr. X") dreamed about.   :-)

Even if you could harness it, and get the 400 Megwatts
it would be a drop in the bucket compared to a 4,000 Megawatt Nuclear facility.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  3 19:01:56 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 11:57:02 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:09:00 -0500:
[snip]
>***{So the missing mass is the mass of stellar magnetic fields? OK, let's
>see some numbers: what is the mass of the sun's magnetic field, for
>example? (And please remember: we are yahoos out here, so we need to see
>each step in the calculation. :-) --MJ}***
[snip]
No, the "missing mass" isn't the mass of the magnetic fields. The
premise that mass is missing is based on the false assumption that the
only force holding galaxies together is the gravitational force.
No account is taken of the magnetic attraction between stellar magnetic
fields and the galactic magnetic field.
BTW I just shot myself in the foot. Since the sun's field reverses every
11 years, it should result in the sun being alternately attracted and
repelled by the galactic field, which in turn would result in an erratic
course for the sun, which AFAIK is not in evidence. :(.



Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  3 21:56:25 2001
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Message-ID: <002601c0ecb1$f9677f50$62584118 CRQ>
From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <war123 aztec.asu.edu>
References: <65.1547c792.284aff04 aol.com> <65.1547c792.284aff04@aol.com> <erjjhtcfcvba3a8j5qba1gqh0bufjbistp@4ax.com> <v04011700b74048d08b03@[207.8.127.135]> <6cqlhtgqf206395muma5pi17a9cbik8b28@4ax.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 00:51:10 -0400
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Hi Robin,

I know I'm going even further out on a "limb" here <g>, but..

What if the anomalous stellar angular rim velocity results not from missing
mass or stellar/galactic magnetic attractions but from electrodynamic
interactions?

Ion currents arising from total galactic sun's coronal mass discharge/wind
and light pressures on plasma ions; these will be strongest radially since
those suns are most numerous. This should have the additive effect of
creating a radial current. A galactic electrodynamic homopolar motor action
should then result with more "motor action" naturally occurring where the
magnetic fields are also the most concentrated. And where is that? In a
natural or permanent magnet the magnetic field is most concentrated at the
rim, but in a galaxy, where is the magnetic field strongest?

Could "missing mass" be simply missing electrodynamics?

 Best Regards,
Colin Quinney

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue

...
> No, the "missing mass" isn't the mass of the magnetic fields. The
> premise that mass is missing is based on the false assumption that the
> only force holding galaxies together is the gravitational force.
> No account is taken of the magnetic attraction between stellar magnetic
> fields and the galactic magnetic field.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  3 22:05:12 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Electrons & Static Electricity
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:56:29 -0500
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Try this for thought:

Light Leptons aside. It looks like the Earth-Ionosphere electrical system is providing
the "free electrons" for the "Static Electricity" effects.

IOW, the Electron Affinity of various molecules near the Earth's surface (ground) that
ranges from a fraction of an eV and up, but much less than the Ionization Potential of
most materials, is allowing these sequestered electrons to be easily removed.
Never could figure why most plastics with a high dielectric
strength and ionization potential, so readily give up their electrons by rubbing, or
how a simple Van de Graaff generator can allow rubbing a glass rod with a latex belt
build up high potentials just by transporting electrons from ground to a metal sphere.
And then there was Amber and Jet rubbed by fur that the ancients used for getting a
jolt.

IOW, thanks to this Solar-Powered System, when it rains, it rains electrons too.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  3 23:18:19 2001
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Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 01:17:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Plans for Gravition Power Plants In The Near Future-My Proof!
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>  "
>
>I have about a half dozen books on pyramid power, zero point energies,
>and gravity  physics which I am reading presently, and I may be able to
>piece together the facts and  the technological process.  I may also be able
>to

Have you read Puthoff's latest paper speculating on the nature of 
gravity and inertia?


>hire researchers to prove the facts in the  near future and then file
>patents and
>encourage legislation in the U.S. or in other more friendly countries.

Have you heard about an International Patent? I've been told that 
they offer good protection and they will protect property that the U 
S PTO won't.

>
>Logically to produce gravity waves if they exist, all one needs to do is
>generate
>waves  smaller than light waves. And to test for gravity waves all one needs
>to

You can speculate and remote view all you want to but you are going 
to have to come up with a detector which measures changes based on 
physical changes.

>do is to be able to measure waves smaller than light waves.

Does anyone know of detectors which measure frequencies in the higher 
end of the spectrum?

>
>Respectively,
>
>President, Thomas Clark

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  3 23:19:01 2001
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: fusion reactor
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The author of this website claims to have built an improved hot fusion reactor.
http://hometown.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  3 23:19:06 2001
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Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 01:17:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
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>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>; <knagel@gis.net>; <tom@rhfweb.com>
>Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 12:47 PM
>Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
>
>Bruce,
>
>I think you would've been better off to have spent that $37.00 plus S & H on a
>"Shrink".  :-)
>
>Regards,   Frederick

I agree, I linked to Dr. Lindermann's site from Jerry Decker's site. 
I asked him some pointed questions. I have yet to receive a reply. 
Bottom line, anybody can write a book, but it takes a break through 
to heat water.

>
>
>>  I think you serious tinkerers would save a lot of time and money if you
>>  purchased the recent published book "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold
>  > Electricity by Dr. Peter Lindemann for about $37, includes shipping and

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  4 00:15:08 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: fusion reactor
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:11:27 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Mon, 4 Jun 2001 01:17:08 -0500:

>
>The author of this website claims to have built an improved hot fusion reactor.
>http://hometown.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html
Yes, but he isn't sure yet whether or not he has actually seen fusion.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  4 00:17:22 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 17:15:54 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Colin Quinney's message of Mon, 4 Jun 2001 00:51:10 -0400:

>Hi Robin,
>
>I know I'm going even further out on a "limb" here <g>, but..

Actually, I think may be on a stronger limb than I was :).
>
>What if the anomalous stellar angular rim velocity results not from missing
>mass or stellar/galactic magnetic attractions but from electrodynamic
>interactions?

This is what I was trying to say, in a simplified fashion. Perhaps
however it can't be simplified without losing it's essence.
See "The Big Bang Never Happened" by Eric J. Lerner.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  4 07:00:44 2001
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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 06:58:04 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: fusion reactor
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote in reply to Thomas Malloy's message of Mon, 4 
Jun 2001:

>>The author of this website claims to have built an improved hot fusion 
reactor.

http://hometown.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html

>Yes, but he isn't sure yet whether or not he has actually seen fusion.


Guys, he has a Farnsworth Fusor type device. These have been around for 
decades. It does produce D+D fusion, but on a very small scale - at the "tail" of 
the probability curve. 

There are a half dozen or more other sites on the web that demonstrate these 
devices (with more clarity and sophistication). In fact, Scott Little, who used to 
contribute to this forum, build one rather quickly that produced more neutrons 
than the one in question. Richard Hull has built several and has gotten over 
10^5 neutrons/sec, I believe. 

G. Miley of CF fame even patented a similar device and sold it to Daimler-
Chrysler Aerospace -  they already have a commercial product on the market -  
a simple laboratory neutron generator that gives something like 10^6 
neutrons/sec. Do a web search for Farnsworth Fusor for more info - this is 
very interesting stuff, but far from new.

All of these are massively inefficient - hundreds of thousands of times removed 
from thermodynamic breakeven. You would need about 10^12 neutrons/ sec 
to make the thing even interesting as some kind of subcritical fission add-on.

Regards,

Jones Beene

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Plans for Gravition Power Plants In The Near Future-My Proof!
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 10:38:02 -0700
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On Sunday 03 June 2001 23:17, thomas malloy wrote:
> >  "
> >
> >I have about a half dozen books on pyramid power, zero point energies,
> >and gravity  physics which I am reading presently, and I may be able to
> >piece together the facts and  the technological process.  I may also be 
able
> >to
> 
> Have you read Puthoff's latest paper speculating on the nature of 
> gravity and inertia?
> 
> 
> >hire researchers to prove the facts in the  near future and then file
> >patents and
> >encourage legislation in the U.S. or in other more friendly countries.
> 
> Have you heard about an International Patent? I've been told that 
> they offer good protection and they will protect property that the U 
> S PTO won't.
> 
> >
> >Logically to produce gravity waves if they exist, all one needs to do is
> >generate
> >waves  smaller than light waves. And to test for gravity waves all one 
needs
> >to
> 
> You can speculate and remote view all you want to but you are going 
> to have to come up with a detector which measures changes based on 
> physical changes.
> 
> >do is to be able to measure waves smaller than light waves.
> 
> Does anyone know of detectors which measure frequencies in the higher 
> end of the spectrum?
> 
> >
> >Respectively,
> >
> >President, Thomas Clark

Gentlemen,
	To measure these physical changes, we would need a
'measuring stick' that did not change while the rest of the physical
world changed,  a reference wave or object.  
	It would have to operate much like a gyrocompass on a 
ship.  As anyone who has ever been to sea knows, compasses
cannot always be reliably read due to motion of the ship relative
to the compass pointer.  So gyrocompasses are used that resist
those relative translations and rotations.  They are built of varying
accuracies when one needs finer readouts in rougher situations.
Suggestions anyone!?

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: fusion reactor
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 10:40:59 -0700
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On Sunday 03 June 2001 23:17, thomas malloy wrote:
> The author of this website claims to have built an improved hot fusion 
reactor.
> http://hometown.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html

What is your effective power out?  That is the power left over to be
used after deducting the input power?  The device would have to
produce more power than it consumes in order to be really useful
outside a laboratory.

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  4 11:11:11 2001
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:04:36 -0700
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Bravo Bear!!
I like your attitude.
Explorers Unite!

Matthew Rogers
Prove it..

-----Original Message-----
From: Standing Bear [mailto:rockcast net-link.net]
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 12:51 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue

On Saturday 02 June 2001 22:48, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> In reply to  ConexTom aol.com's message of Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:46:28 EDT:
>
> >Subj:   Fw: Candidate for universal gravitational glue 
> >Date:   6/2/01 11:41:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time   
> >From:    etimes teleport.com (Bruce Meland)
> >To:    tom rhfweb.com
> >CC:    conextom aol.com
> >   
> >Hi Tom I believe some form of these neutrinos are the gravity particles.
Bruce
> >
> >
> >Candidate for universal gravitational glue
> There is no glue, and none needed. The reason
> astronomers/astro-physicists think they need one, is because they ignore
> the magnetic fields of stars and galaxies.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> New model hydrogen atom see
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

Nobody really knows.  What we really need is more data.  The
only way we are going to begin to get that is to go out into space
and look for it.  Ourselves!  On manned expeditions.  We the
human race are going to have to cooperate long enough to
to it together.
        We can argue endlessly and accomplish not really as
much as we think.  We need to go there!  Even if it is just to
cruise around the solar system.  Plenty to see and do right here
in our own system.   We build a ship, a system ship, looking a
little like the Star Trek Enterprise but with four nacelles instead
of two.  The saucer can be made to revolve, creating artificial
gravity for the crew while not on watch (duty).  The nacelles can
house very large ionic drives like the Deep Space 1.  Make
them so that they can thrust both forward and backward on
command.  Power it with a strong nuclear reactor.  Equip it with
a large sail to catch interplanetary gases like hydrogen for
use as propellant.  If strong enough, it would be able to use
system bodies with hydrogen atmospheres as 'gas stations'.
Make it large enough for a crew of 250 to 400 to live indefinitely
on it.  Utilize that cold fusion if possible.  The only energy
criterion is that it be usable beyond the orbit of Neptune as
a viable source of life support energy and propulsion
energy.  This is really within our present technology.
It could never land on a planet, but could carry craft that could.
It could be used to prospect asteroids for minerals and outer
atmospheres for gases useful on earth.  It would have to be
compartmented to contain damage from possible hull punctures,
and have redundant systems and personnel for critical needs
and skills.
        It would fire the imagination of generations of people
in the world and bring them the light of hope

Standing Bear


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  4 11:16:41 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Mitchell Jones" <mjones jump.net>, <tom@rhfweb.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:38:47 -0700
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After observing the energy generated from nutrino type particles, and
perhaps magnetic fields of earth and stars if they are present here on earth
in sufficient quanity(stars magnetic fields overlapping the earth), light
particles from the sun seem insignificant. Other cosmic rays, such as mesons
may also be involved. Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, June 03, 2001 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue


>>In reply to  ConexTom aol.com's message of Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:46:28 EDT:
>>
>>>Subj:   Fw: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
>>>Date:   6/2/01 11:41:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>>>From:    etimes teleport.com (Bruce Meland)
>>>To:    tom rhfweb.com
>>>CC:    conextom aol.com
>>>
>>>Hi Tom I believe some form of these neutrinos are the gravity particles.
>>>Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>Candidate for universal gravitational glue
>>There is no glue, and none needed. The reason
>>astronomers/astro-physicists think they need one, is because they ignore
>>the magnetic fields of stars and galaxies.
>
>***{So the missing mass is the mass of stellar magnetic fields? OK, let's
>see some numbers: what is the mass of the sun's magnetic field, for
>example? (And please remember: we are yahoos out here, so we need to see
>each step in the calculation. :-) --MJ}***
>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>>New model hydrogen atom see
>>http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html
>
>________________
>Quote of the month:
>
>"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
>be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  4 11:17:23 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:51:03 -0700
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HI again Dr Clark; Did the other email about neutrinos from ABC News =
with photos of detectors get through to you from me. I lost some of your =
emails to me after i sent this to you. What part of the US are you =
located? Bruce  Meland, editor Electrifying Times
    -----Original Message-----
    From: ConexTom aol.com <ConexTom@aol.com>
    To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; DEACH@topica.com =
<DEACH topica.com>
    Cc: tom rhfweb.com <tom@rhfweb.com>
    Date: Saturday, June 02, 2001 7:51 PM
    Subject: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
   =20
   =20
    Subj: Fw: Candidate for universal gravitational glue=20
    Date: 6/2/01 11:41:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time=20
    From:    etimes teleport.com (Bruce Meland)=20
    To:    tom rhfweb.com=20
    CC:    conextom aol.com=20
   =20
    Hi Tom I believe some form of these neutrinos are the gravity =
particles. Bruce=20
   =20
   =20
    Candidate for universal gravitational glue=20
   =20
   =20
    UPI Science News Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT TAKAYAMA, Japan, June 5 =
(UPI) -=20
    Researchers say they have identifed what may be the unseen =
gravitational glue=20
    _ the so-called dark matter responsible in part for the evolution of =
the=20
    universe from the moment of its birth: neutrinos. A serious =
candidate for=20
    this glue, neutrinos are invisible, sub- atomic particles, created =
at the=20
    time of the Big Bang, that stream through the Earth, people and =
everything=20
    else unfettered. The groundbreaking discovery, announced Friday in =
Japan by=20
    an international team of scientists, was that neutrinos have mass. =
Because=20
    the particles fill the universe, scientists say, collectively they =
may have=20
    the force to reverse its expansive course to cause the ``Big =
Crunch.'' So=20
    fundamental a discovery, they said at Neutrino '98, an international =
physics=20
    conference in Takayama, Japan, could help explain baffling puzzles =
about the=20
    nature of matter and the formation of the universe after the Big =
Bang. The=20
    discovery was the result of a two year, $100 million experiment by =
an=20
    international team of scientists. Dr. John G. Learned, a University =
of Hawaii=20
    physicist and one of the lead researchers, told United Press =
International,=20
    the discovery means neutrinos may account for the many gravitational =
forces=20
    apparent in astronomical observations that no one has ever been able =
to=20
    explain. ``This will go down as perhaps the one most important =
discovery in=20
    science in the decade,'' he said Thursday. ``It means that neutrinos =
are=20
    surely one of the more massive components of the universe.'' Dr. =
David=20
    Casper, a University of California-Irvine physicist and another team =
member,=20
    agreed, asserting the finding will help scientists understand ``how =
galaxies=20
    and other large scale structures in the universe interact =
gravitationally.''=20
    Until now, he said, scientists have been puzzled about the movements =
of the=20
    heavens, knowing that something was missing from their calculations, =
and=20
    describing the unknown variable as ``dark'' or ``missing'' matter. =
This=20
    discovery, Learned said, suggests that neutrinos have an aggregate=20
    gravitational influence that may eventually be sufficient to reverse =
the=20
    universal expansion triggered by the Big Bang and cause a ``Big =
Crunch.''=20
    ``The discovery of neutrino mass is intimately connected with both =
the=20
    origins and ultimate fate of the universe,'' Casper said. ``We =
suspected but=20
    did not know that neutrinos had tiny mass. We didn't think of them =
as making=20
    up a part of our world, but in fact, the universe is full of =
neutrinos. Every=20
    cubic centimeter of the universe has about 200 or so neutrinos, =
which are=20
    left over from the Big Bang.'' The finding may also fill in the =
blanks in=20
    equations aimed at solving how particles acquire mass, ``one of the =
deepest=20
    unsolved questions of particle physics,'' Casper said. ``This will =
help=20
    astronomers understand something that puzzles them greatly _ why is =
there=20
    more gravitational force than they expect from the amount of stuff =
the can=20
    see out there,'' Casper added. Learned says neutrinos, until now =
thought to=20
    have no mass, may on the whole turn out to make up ``most of the =
mass of the=20
    universe. '' The discovery was made at Super-Kamiokande Observatory, =
the=20
    world's largest elementary particle detector, northwest of Tokyo. =
Scientists=20
    from 23 institutions in the United States, Japan, Poland and Korea =
took part.=20
    The team included Dr. Henry Sobel, also of UC-Irvine. Neutrinos, =
similar to=20
    electrons, have long been known to be a fundamental constituent of =
nature.=20
    But unlike electrons, neutrinos carry no electric charge, and thus =
can pass=20
    unimpeded through great distances in matter. This property, along =
with their=20
    invisibility, has made them extremely difficult to observe. =
Scientists have=20
    suspected for years that neutrinos might have a very small, but =
non-zero,=20
    mass, but never before could prove it. Casper said the discovery =
won't=20
    ``change the life of the average Joe'' but has profound implications =
for=20
    physicists and astrophysicsts. The finding also suggests, he said, =
that the=20
    gravitational influence of neutrinos may have been a catalyst for =
the=20
    collapse of the diffuse primordial gas into more dense regions that=20
    eventually spawned galaxies, stars and planets. UC-Irvine issued a =
statement=20
    on behalf of its scientists asserting that the experiment had =
yielded=20
    ``results that are outside the standard theory of particle physics, =
which=20
    describes the fundamental constituents of matter and their =
interactions.=20
    Until now, there has been no firm evidence that neutrinos possess =
mass.'' The=20
    evidence was based upon studies of neutrinos created when cosmic =
rays bombard=20
    the Earth's upper atmosphere, producing storms of secndary particles =
that=20
    rain down constantly from the heavens. Most neutrinos pass through =
the entire=20
    planet unscathed, but have been detected passing through the =
Super-Kamiokande=20
    group's 50,000-ton tank of purified water 1,000 meters beneath the =
surface.=20
    The scientists noticed the neutrinos oscillated, or changed from one =
type of=20
    neutrino to another, something that could occur only if they have =
mass. They=20
    say in a joint statement that neutrinos ``must now be incorporated =
into the=20
    theoretical models of the structure of matter and that =
astrophysicists=20
    concerned with finding the 'missing' or 'dark matter' in the =
universe must=20
    now consider the neutrino as a serious candidate.'' Neutrinos were =
created in=20
    vast quantities in the first instants after the Big Bang and =
permeate the=20
    universe, Casper said. ``Because these leftover neutrinos are =
everywhere,=20
    even if they have a tiny mass, when you add them up, it adds up to =
something=20
    significant in terms of how galaxies and large scale structures in =
the=20
    universe gravitationally interact,'' Casper said. ``You have a =
zillion things=20
    which by themselves have almost no mass, but when you add them all =
up, they=20
    can have a large scale. This may now guide theorists in answering =
the big=20
    question _ why does everything have mass?'' Learned said, ``this is=20
    fundamental science on the most basic scale,'' and its practical =
applications=20
    might not become evident for many years. Copyright 1998 by United =
Press=20
    International All rights reserved=20
   =20
    Respectively,=20
   =20
    President, Thomas Clark=20
    Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,=20
    RHF Business web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/=20
    Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal=20
    New Age Media Productions at=20
    http://www.rhfweb.com/newage=20
    Email: tom rhfweb.com=20


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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>HI again Dr Clark; Did the other =
email about=20
neutrinos from ABC News with photos of detectors get through to you from =
me. I=20
lost some of your emails to me after i sent this to you. What part of =
the US are=20
you located? Bruce&nbsp; Meland, editor Electrifying Times</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:ConexTom aol.com">ConexTom@aol.com</A> &lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:ConexTom aol.com">ConexTom@aol.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> &lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A>&gt;; <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:DEACH topica.com">DEACH@topica.com</A> &lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:DEACH topica.com">DEACH@topica.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Cc: =
</B><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:tom rhfweb.com">tom@rhfweb.com</A> &lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:tom rhfweb.com">tom@rhfweb.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, June 02, 2001 7:51 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Fwd: =
Candidate for=20
    universal gravitational glue<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Subj: <B>Fw: Candidate for =
universal=20
    gravitational glue</B> <BR>Date: 6/2/01 11:41:42 AM Pacific Daylight =
Time=20
    <BR><I>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:etimes teleport.com">etimes@teleport.com</A> (Bruce =
Meland)=20
    <BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; tom rhfweb.com <BR>CC:&nbsp; &nbsp; =
conextom aol.com=20
    <BR></I><BR>Hi Tom I believe some form of these neutrinos are the =
gravity=20
    particles. Bruce <BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
lang=3D0 size=3D3=20
    FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
    FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
lang=3D0 size=3D6=20
    FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><B>Candidate for universal gravitational glue=20
    <BR><BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 =
size=3D2 FAMILY =3D=20
    SANSSERIF></B>UPI Science News Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT TAKAYAMA, =
Japan,=20
    June 5 (UPI) - <BR>Researchers say they have identifed what may be =
the=20
    unseen gravitational glue <BR>_ the so-called dark matter =
responsible in=20
    part for the evolution of the <BR>universe from the moment of its =
birth:=20
    neutrinos. A serious candidate for <BR>this glue, neutrinos are =
invisible,=20
    sub- atomic particles, created at the <BR>time of the Big Bang, that =
stream=20
    through the Earth, people and everything <BR>else unfettered. The=20
    groundbreaking discovery, announced Friday in Japan by <BR>an =
international=20
    team of scientists, was that neutrinos have mass. Because <BR>the =
particles=20
    fill the universe, scientists say, collectively they may have =
<BR>the force=20
    to reverse its expansive course to cause the ``Big Crunch.'' So=20
    <BR>fundamental a discovery, they said at Neutrino '98, an =
international=20
    physics <BR>conference in Takayama, Japan, could help explain =
baffling=20
    puzzles about the <BR>nature of matter and the formation of the =
universe=20
    after the Big Bang. The <BR>discovery was the result of a two year, =
$100=20
    million experiment by an <BR>international team of scientists. Dr. =
John G.=20
    Learned, a University of Hawaii <BR>physicist and one of the lead=20
    researchers, told United Press International, <BR>the discovery =
means=20
    neutrinos may account for the many gravitational forces <BR>apparent =
in=20
    astronomical observations that no one has ever been able to =
<BR>explain.=20
    ``This will go down as perhaps the one most important discovery in=20
    <BR>science in the decade,'' he said Thursday. ``It means that =
neutrinos are=20
    <BR>surely one of the more massive components of the universe.'' Dr. =
David=20
    <BR>Casper, a University of California-Irvine physicist and another =
team=20
    member, <BR>agreed, asserting the finding will help scientists =
understand=20
    ``how galaxies <BR>and other large scale structures in the universe =
interact=20
    gravitationally.'' <BR>Until now, he said, scientists have been =
puzzled=20
    about the movements of the <BR>heavens, knowing that something was =
missing=20
    from their calculations, and <BR>describing the unknown variable as =
``dark''=20
    or ``missing'' matter. This <BR>discovery, Learned said, suggests =
that=20
    neutrinos have an aggregate <BR>gravitational influence that may =
eventually=20
    be sufficient to reverse the <BR>universal expansion triggered by =
the Big=20
    Bang and cause a ``Big Crunch.'' <BR>``The discovery of neutrino =
mass is=20
    intimately connected with both the <BR>origins and ultimate fate of =
the=20
    universe,'' Casper said. ``We suspected but <BR>did not know that =
neutrinos=20
    had tiny mass. We didn't think of them as making <BR>up a part of =
our world,=20
    but in fact, the universe is full of neutrinos. Every <BR>cubic =
centimeter=20
    of the universe has about 200 or so neutrinos, which are <BR>left =
over from=20
    the Big Bang.'' The finding may also fill in the blanks in =
<BR>equations=20
    aimed at solving how particles acquire mass, ``one of the deepest=20
    <BR>unsolved questions of particle physics,'' Casper said. ``This =
will help=20
    <BR>astronomers understand something that puzzles them greatly _ why =
is=20
    there <BR>more gravitational force than they expect from the amount =
of stuff=20
    the can <BR>see out there,'' Casper added. Learned says neutrinos, =
until now=20
    thought to <BR>have no mass, may on the whole turn out to make up =
``most of=20
    the mass of the <BR>universe. '' The discovery was made at =
Super-Kamiokande=20
    Observatory, the <BR>world's largest elementary particle detector, =
northwest=20
    of Tokyo. Scientists <BR>from 23 institutions in the United States, =
Japan,=20
    Poland and Korea took part. <BR>The team included Dr. Henry Sobel, =
also of=20
    UC-Irvine. Neutrinos, similar to <BR>electrons, have long been known =
to be a=20
    fundamental constituent of nature. <BR>But unlike electrons, =
neutrinos carry=20
    no electric charge, and thus can pass <BR>unimpeded through great =
distances=20
    in matter. This property, along with their <BR>invisibility, has =
made them=20
    extremely difficult to observe. Scientists have <BR>suspected for =
years that=20
    neutrinos might have a very small, but non-zero, <BR>mass, but never =
before=20
    could prove it. Casper said the discovery won't <BR>``change the =
life of the=20
    average Joe'' but has profound implications for <BR>physicists and=20
    astrophysicsts. The finding also suggests, he said, that the=20
    <BR>gravitational influence of neutrinos may have been a catalyst =
for the=20
    <BR>collapse of the diffuse primordial gas into more dense regions =
that=20
    <BR>eventually spawned galaxies, stars and planets. UC-Irvine issued =
a=20
    statement <BR>on behalf of its scientists asserting that the =
experiment had=20
    yielded <BR>``results that are outside the standard theory of =
particle=20
    physics, which <BR>describes the fundamental constituents of matter =
and=20
    their interactions. <BR>Until now, there has been no firm evidence =
that=20
    neutrinos possess mass.'' The <BR>evidence was based upon studies of =

    neutrinos created when cosmic rays bombard <BR>the Earth's upper =
atmosphere,=20
    producing storms of secndary particles that <BR>rain down constantly =
from=20
    the heavens. Most neutrinos pass through the entire <BR>planet =
unscathed,=20
    but have been detected passing through the Super-Kamiokande =
<BR>group's=20
    50,000-ton tank of purified water 1,000 meters beneath the surface. =
<BR>The=20
    scientists noticed the neutrinos oscillated, or changed from one =
type of=20
    <BR>neutrino to another, something that could occur only if they =
have mass.=20
    They <BR>say in a joint statement that neutrinos ``must now be =
incorporated=20
    into the <BR>theoretical models of the structure of matter and that=20
    astrophysicists <BR>concerned with finding the 'missing' or 'dark =
matter' in=20
    the universe must <BR>now consider the neutrino as a serious =
candidate.''=20
    Neutrinos were created in <BR>vast quantities in the first instants =
after=20
    the Big Bang and permeate the <BR>universe, Casper said. ``Because =
these=20
    leftover neutrinos are everywhere, <BR>even if they have a tiny =
mass, when=20
    you add them up, it adds up to something <BR>significant in terms of =
how=20
    galaxies and large scale structures in the <BR>universe =
gravitationally=20
    interact,'' Casper said. ``You have a zillion things <BR>which by =
themselves=20
    have almost no mass, but when you add them all up, they <BR>can have =
a large=20
    scale. This may now guide theorists in answering the big =
<BR>question _ why=20
    does everything have mass?'' Learned said, ``this is <BR>fundamental =
science=20
    on the most basic scale,'' and its practical applications <BR>might =
not=20
    become evident for many years. Copyright 1998 by United Press=20
    <BR>International All rights reserved <BR></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
    face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D =
SANSSERIF><BR>Respectively,=20
    <BR><BR>President, Thomas Clark <BR>Radiation Health Foundation =
(RHF) Inc.,=20
    <BR>RHF Business web site at: <A=20
    href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/">http://www.rhfweb.com/</A> =
<BR>Personal=20
    website at <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">http://www.rhfweb.com/personal</A=
>=20
    <BR>New Age Media Productions at <BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage">http://www.rhfweb.com/newage</A>=20
    <BR>Email: <A href=3D"mailto:tom rhfweb.com">tom@rhfweb.com</A>=20
    <BR></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  4 11:20:07 2001
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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 11:02:08 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: fusion reactor, correction
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-to: jonesb9 pacbell.net
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In an earlier post, it appears that I mispoke when I wrote:

>Guys, he has a Farnsworth Fusor type device...

Apparently the reactor is based instead a Mather plasma focus design.

The builder (??) mentions Farnswoth, but his design is pulsed, whereas the 
Fusor is steady state. A Fusor IEC device invariably employs the distinctive 
spherical reactor which along with an internal grid creates a globular 
convergence zone that effectively mulitplies ion energies by orders of 
magnitude. The plasma focus, on the other hand, is normally a simpler layout 
which usually employs the brute force of a capacitor discharge to create fusion. 

Perhaps there has been an attempt to combine the features of both?

JB

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Having just read Christopher Arnold's patent application and come away 
hopelessly confused from the tiny drawing and the fact that it appears to be 
both a motor and a pulsed power source, I have e-mailed him directly at 
hypercom59 aol.com and invited him to join the forum and explain his device. 

Lets hope that he will oblige.

Jones Beene 



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-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Meland <etimes teleport.com>
To: herman antioch-college.edu <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Cc: etimes teleport.com <etimes@teleport.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 8:58 AM
Subject: Fw: Aquino info on Anti Gravity



--
Yes, CSETI is Dr. Greer's organization.
=20
Debbie
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Bruce Meland=20
    To: Debbie Foch=20
    Cc: etimes teleport.com=20
    Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 12:56 PM
    Subject: Re: Aquino info on Anti Gravity
   =20
   =20
    Hi Debbie; Thanks for the information; didn't your orginization get =
a big grant from Paul Allen? Or who's organization was that? Arn't you =
Dr Greers Orginization? Maybe some of that money could go for this =
project. Sincerely Bruce Meland editor  www.electrifyingtimes.com=20
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Debbie Foch <coordinator cseti.org>
        To: Bruce Meland (by way of Tony Craddock <webmaster cseti.org>) =
<etimes teleport.com>
        Date: Monday, February 26, 2001 11:41 AM
        Subject: Aquino info
       =20
       =20
        Bruce,
        =20
        I just got this today.
        =20
        Debbie
        ----- Original Message -----=20
        From: Oilab Inc.=20
        To: coordinator cseti.org=20
        Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 2:25 PM
        Subject: Please help us
       =20
       =20
        To the founders of CSETI,

        Mankind is on the brink of Gravity manipulation in ways only =
dreamed about since we began to reason. The effects are provable and =
have been demonstrated in controlled conditions. This time is now upon =
us to move forward and dispel the ignorance of the masses. I am =
employing you for help in this regard. The efforts of Fran de Aquino, =
myself, and others to reach the public have been limited. We need your =
help. Dr. Aquino

        Is a professor of physics and I am a analytical chemist. We have =
been successful in the gravity alteration aspects of common materials. =
The implication is profound and undeniable. We can not depend on any =
government agencies to bring the Truth to the rightful attention of =
mankind. Either they refuse out of ignorance or have deeper alliterative =
motives is unclear. I employ you, to see what we have done, and if you =
agree, then I am positive you can be counted on to bring to our world =
the truth, as many voices can not be ignored. Please help us.

        See my site at; http://www.icnet.net/users/chrish/cropcir.html=20

        also; http://www.icnet.net/users/chrish/Photo-gravity.htm

        Fran de Aquino at ; http://www.elo.com.br/%7Edeaquino/

        His paper is published on line at =
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9905003%20

        (Note: the HTML format corrupted many of the equations embodied =
in its pages.)

       =20

        Sincerely-=20

        Chris Hardeman

        You can reach me by email; chrish icnet.net


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http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>Bruce Meland &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:etimes teleport.com">etimes@teleport.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>To:=
 </B><A=20
href=3D"mailto:herman antioch-college.edu">herman@antioch-college.edu</A>=
 &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:herman antioch-college.edu">herman@antioch-college.edu</A>=
&gt;<BR><B>Cc:=20
</B><A href=3D"mailto:etimes teleport.com">etimes@teleport.com</A> =
&lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:etimes teleport.com">etimes@teleport.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Dat=
e:=20
</B>Wednesday, May 09, 2001 8:58 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Fw: Aquino info =
on Anti=20
Gravity<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>--</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yes, CSETI is Dr. Greer's=20
organization.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Debbie</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"=20
dir =3D ltr>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A href=3D"mailto:etimes teleport.com" =
title=3Detimes teleport.com>Bruce=20
    Meland</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:coordinator cseti.org" =
title=3Dcoordinator cseti.org>Debbie=20
    Foch</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:etimes teleport.com"=20
    title=3Detimes teleport.com>etimes@teleport.com</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 27, =
2001 12:56=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Aquino info on =
Anti=20
    Gravity</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi Debbie; Thanks for the =
information;=20
    didn't your orginization get a big grant from Paul Allen? Or who's=20
    organization was that? Arn't you Dr Greers Orginization? Maybe some =
of that=20
    money could go for this project. Sincerely Bruce Meland editor&nbsp; =
<A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.electrifyingtimes.com">www.electrifyingtimes.com</A>=20
    </FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original=20
        Message-----</B><BR><B>From: </B>Debbie Foch &lt;<A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:coordinator cseti.org">coordinator@cseti.org</A>&gt;<BR><B=
>To:=20
        </B>Bruce Meland (by way of Tony Craddock &lt;<A=20
        href=3D"mailto:webmaster cseti.org">webmaster@cseti.org</A>&gt;) =
&lt;<A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:etimes teleport.com">etimes@teleport.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Dat=
e:=20
        </B>Monday, February 26, 2001 11:41 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Aquino =

        info<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bruce,</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I just got this =
today.</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Debbie</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
        <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
        href=3D"mailto:sales oilab.com" title=3Dsales@oilab.com>Oilab =
Inc.</A>=20
</DIV>
        <DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:coordinator cseti.org"=20
        title=3Dcoordinator cseti.org>coordinator@cseti.org</A> </DIV>
        <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 26, 2001 2:25 PM</DIV>
        <DIV><B>Subject:</B> Please help us</DIV></DIV>
        <DIV><BR></DIV>
        <DIV>
        <P>To the founders of CSETI,</P>
        <P>Mankind is on the brink of Gravity manipulation in ways only =
dreamed=20
        about since we began to reason. The effects are provable and =
have been=20
        demonstrated in controlled conditions. This time is now upon us =
to move=20
        forward and dispel the ignorance of the masses. I am employing =
you for=20
        help in this regard. The efforts of Fran de Aquino, myself, and =
others=20
        to reach the public have been limited. We need your help. Dr. =
Aquino</P>
        <P>Is a professor of physics and I am a analytical chemist. We =
have been=20
        successful in the gravity alteration aspects of common =
materials. The=20
        implication is profound and undeniable. We can not depend on any =

        government agencies to bring the Truth to the rightful attention =
of=20
        mankind. Either they refuse out of ignorance or have deeper =
alliterative=20
        motives is unclear. I employ you, to see what we have done, and =
if you=20
        agree, then I am positive you can be counted on to bring to our =
world=20
        the truth, as many voices can not be ignored. Please help =
us.</P>
        <P>See my site at; =
http://www.icnet.net/users/chrish/cropcir.html </P>
        <P>also; http://www.icnet.net/users/chrish/Photo-gravity.htm</P>
        <P>Fran de Aquino at ; http://www.elo.com.br/%7Edeaquino/</P>
        <P>His paper is published on line at=20
        http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/9905003%20</P>
        <P>(Note: the HTML format corrupted many of the equations =
embodied in=20
        its pages.)</P>
        <P>&nbsp;</P>
        <P>Sincerely- </P>
        <P>Chris Hardeman</P>
        <P>You can reach me by email;=20
chrish icnet.net</P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C0ED01.7444F3C0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  4 16:14:55 2001
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 19:08:04 EDT
Subject: air conditioner question
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I have an older car with a R-12 air conditioner.  The R-12 has leaked out 
over the years.  I would like to update and add the new gas with a conversion 
kit. The kit states that the system does not need to be opened.  The kit 
contains new oil.  How do I get the old oil out with opening the system?  
Does anyone know the ins and outs about the R-12 to R-111 conversion?

Frank Znidarsic
fznidarsic aol.com

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>I have an older car with a R-12 air conditioner. &nbsp;The R-12 has leaked out 
<BR>over the years. &nbsp;I would like to update and add the new gas with a conversion 
<BR>kit. The kit states that the system does not need to be opened. &nbsp;The kit 
<BR>contains new oil. &nbsp;How do I get the old oil out with opening the system? &nbsp;
<BR>Does anyone know the ins and outs about the R-12 to R-111 conversion?
<BR>
<BR>Frank Znidarsic
<BR>fznidarsic aol.com</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  4 19:09:21 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 12:05:52 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <mffoht0ulll8hk6hd6g8j3k7p5mrvumfus 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Bruce Meland's message of Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:38:47 -0700:

>After observing the energy generated from nutrino type particles, and
>perhaps magnetic fields of earth and stars if they are present here on earth
>in sufficient quanity(stars magnetic fields overlapping the earth), light
>particles from the sun seem insignificant. Other cosmic rays, such as mesons
>may also be involved. Bruce
Face it Bruce, until someone comes up with a real stand alone device
that pours out kWs, we aren't going to have a clue where the energy
comes from, if indeed it does.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  4 19:30:28 2001
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FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have an older car with a R-12 air conditioner.  The R-12 has leaked
> out
> over the years.  I would like to update and add the new gas with a
> conversion
> kit. The kit states that the system does not need to be opened.  The
> kit
> contains new oil.  How do I get the old oil out with opening the
> system?
> Does anyone know the ins and outs about the R-12 to R-111 conversion?

Frank, try a "google" search on "refrigerant conversion".
I picked the following page as a start:

	http://home.earthlink.net/~goodspeeds/ACCONVRT.HTM

Maybe that will help?

Frank Stenter

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 03:40:30 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <jlsparber earthlink.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Ultraviolet Lamp Neutron Generator?
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The quartz glass germicidal UV lamps in standard fluorescent tube configurations (4
ft, 40 watt T12 or such) if surrounded by a Boron tube, spaced to allow for an annular
volume filled with D2 at atmospheric pressure might act as a source of neutrons
stripped from deuterons.

The 185 and 254 nanometer photons (~6.7 eV and 4.95 eV respectively) will dissociate
the D2 to 2 D and possibly form a "Deuterino" which will dissociate into a Neutron and
a Proton.
The liberated neutrons can be used to fission Lithium 7 forming 2 He4 or Boron 10
forming He4 and Li7 concurrently releasing energy.

I haven't the guts to try this.   :-)


Regards,     Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 06:15:53 2001
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Message-ID: <3B1CDB24.D528A4CB bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:14:12 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:


> How do I get the old oil out with opening
> the system?

The oil went out with the refrigerant since the two travel
together in the system.  You should leak test the system by
pulling a vacuum.  The seals will often degrade in an
unpressurized system.  This will also bring out any moisture that
has infiltrated.

Terry

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Fred Sparber wrote:

>I picked 5.2 AU (The Mean Orbit of Jupiter) or less, as a radius wrt the
>Sun in AU
>where the onslaught of Photon Pressure and  Solar Wind might allow a Moon like
> Europa to retain it's atmosphere.
>
>IOW, the Jovian planets would be a lot smaller if they were closer to the
>Sun.  :-)
>> Your concept is that
>> photon pressure from the sun will tend to resist the movement of individual
>> gas molecules toward the sun, and I will grant that. However, the question
>> of interest in each case is how far out from the sun does the photon
>> pressure exceed the pull of gravity on the molecule, and I see no simple
>> way to compute that without knowing the photon impact cross section of the
>> molecule in question, and I would have no idea where to obtain that
>> information. (You can't just sum the cross-sectional areas of the outer
>> orbits of the atoms in the molecule, because many photons will pass through
>> that area without hitting anything.) Therefore, how about supplying a
>> detailed calculation, so that I can better evaluate what you are saying?
>
>Tomorrow soon enough?

***{Since "tomorrow" would have been May 26 and it is now June 5, I assume
you have been no more successful in obtaining the needed cross-sections
than I. Therefore I am going to make a run at this by simply assuming that
the cross-sectional area of the ground-state electron orbit will reflect
every photon that tries to pass through it. Using that assumption, the
calculated photon pressure on an atomic system will be considerably larger
than is actually the case, and the radius of your "bubble" will accordingly
be larger as well. Nevertheless, it seems worthwhile to calculate what that
radius actually is, so that we can see the limitations of your idea a bit
more clearly.

The insolation at Earth's orbit is about 1360 watts/m^2, so total solar
luminosity is 1360(4¼r^2) = 1360{4¼[(93x10^6)(5280)(12)(2.54)/100]^2} =
3.83x10^26 watts, or 3.83x10^33 ergs/sec.

Therefore the generalized expression for insolation is 3.83x10^33/4¼r^2 =
3.05x10^32/r^2 ergs/cm^2-sec.

The typical solar photon has a wavelength of about w = 4700 Å and an energy
of E = hc/w = (6.62x10^-27)(3x10^10)/(4700)(10^-8) = 4.23x10^-12 ergs.

Thus the number of such photons per sec per cm^2 is N = (3.05x10^32/r^2
ergs/cm^2-sec)/(4.23x10^-12 ergs) = (7.21x10^43/r^2)/cm^2-sec.

Each such photon, depending on its point of impact, will impart to the
hydrogen atom a momentum away from the sun that varies from 2E/c for a
center hit to 0 for a negligible grazing impact. Thus I am going to take
E/c as the average change in momentum per impact--that is: E/c =
(4.23x10^-12 ergs)/(3x10^10 cm/sec) = 1.41x10^-22 erg-sec/cm.

The solar photon pressure per unit area on a hydrogen atom is therefore P =
N(E/c) = (7.21x10^43/r^2/cm^2-sec)(1.41x10^-22 erg-sec/cm) = 1.02x10^22/r^2
erg-sec/cm^3-sec = 1.02x10^22/r^2 ergs/cm^3 = 1.02x10^22/r^2 dynes/cm^2.

The cross-sectional area of the electron shell of a ground-state hydrogen
atom is A = ¼r^2 = ¼(.53x10^-8)^2 =  8.8x10^-17 cm^2.

Therefore the outward force exerted by solar radiation on a monoatomic
hydrogen atom is roughly Fo = P*A = (1.02x10^22/r^2 dynes/cm^2)(8.8x10^-17
cm^2) =  8.95x10^5/r^2 dynes.

The inward force exerted by the sun's gravity on a monoatomic hydrogen atom
is Fi = GMm/r^2 = (6.67x10^-8)(1.9891x10^33)(1.657x10^-24)/r^2 =
2.20x10^2/r^2 dynes.

The implication: Fo is always greater than Fi--which means hydrogen gas
cannot approach the sun.

More importantly, both photon pressure and gravitational force vary as the
inverse square of the distance from the sun. Result: if for a particular
molecular species Fo > Fi at any radius, then Fo > Fi at *every* radius.

Since at the outer limit of the Fred Sparber bubble Fo = Fi, it follows
that the Fred Sparber bubble does not, and cannot, exist.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>OTOH, watching the separated tail of a comet move around like a
>"Con-Trail" from a
>jet-liner gives an good
>indication of Solar Photon-Wind sweeping action.

***{Yes, but there is no "bubble." If at any distance from the sun the
photon repulsion of a gas molecule is greater than the gravitational
attraction, that will be the case at all distances. Thus the only way
molecules of the banned species can approach the sun is if they are
aggregated together in larger bodies. (Since the attractive gravitational
force on an object is proportional to the cube of its radius and the photon
repulsion is proportional to the square of its radius, the aggregation of
molecules into larger particles shifts the balance in favor of attraction.)

The implication is that the sun isn't sweeping up any gases--or, at least,
any light gases. Instead, individual atoms and molecules in the space
surrounding the sun must aggregate into larger particles--e.g., crystals of
methane, ammonia, carbon dioxide, or water  ice--before the balance can be
shifted in favor of attraction. Moreover, since the surfaces of such
aggregates are blasted away by photon pressure as the sun is approached,
they must be rather large to actually make it into the sun itself.

Therefore in the region outside the planetary disc there must be a
mind-boggling accumulation of orbiting ice crystals, comets, and dust, due
simply to the sun's rejection of small objects that approach it. By
repelling the low-mass molecules, it  ensures that they will eventually
aggregate together into larger objects--e.g., small comets--before they are
finally able to move into the inner solar system.

Bottom line: if the pioneer anomaly is due to the effects of aether flow
outward along the planetary disc, as I have suggested, then there should be
a continuous movement of small comets into the planetary disc from the
regions above and below it.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>Regards,   Frederick
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

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Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:55:44 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Problem of the Missing Mass
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>No, the "missing mass" isn't the mass of the magnetic fields. The
>premise that mass is missing is based on the false assumption that the
>only force holding galaxies together is the gravitational force.
>No account is taken of the magnetic attraction between stellar magnetic
>fields and the galactic magnetic field.
>BTW I just shot myself in the foot. Since the sun's field reverses every
>11 years, it should result in the sun being alternately attracted and
>repelled by the galactic field, which in turn would result in an erratic
>course for the sun, which AFAIK is not in evidence. :(.

***{I don't think it is within the capabilities of present-day astronomy to
detect an 11-year oscillation in the sun's motion due to the flipping of
its magnetic field. Why do I say that? Simply because the types of
oscillations that I have actually seen discussed were vastly greater in
scale than that, and were usually described to merely a couple of
significant digits of accuracy.

For example, the sun is known to follow a sinusoidal trajectory as it
swings in a gradual spiral around the center of the galaxy, moving in a
regular cycle first above the galactic disc, then below it, etc. (When the
sun moves above the galactic disc, there is more mass below it than above,
and so like a pendulum moving past the center of its arc, the sun slow
down, then stops, then begins to accelerate back toward the galactic disc.
It reaches its maximum downward velocity as it pass through the plane of
the galactic disc, after which it begins to slow again as it moves further
and further below the disc, until it stops, reverses its course, and begins
to accelerate in the upward direction. Etc.) However, I have never seen the
period of this cycle given to more than two-digit accuracy--e.g., 33
million years--and even in that case errors as large as 20% in the number
were explicitly declared to be feasible. [See *Nemesis: The Death Star*, by
Dr. Richard Muller, pg. 95-96. See also
http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/lbl-nem.htm. (This site is fascinating, by the
way.)] The implication: if a contemporary astronomer found himself able to
intelligently discuss an 11-year cycle in the sun's motion, he would think
he had died and gone to heaven! :-)

Bottom line: if your theory is refuted, I don't think the reasoning will
involve disproving an 11-year oscillation in the sun's motion.

By the way, my personal opinion is that the missing gravitational mass is
simply the mass of the aether within each galaxy. As I have pointed out
repeatedly in the past, Michelson considered the Michelson-Morley
experiment (1887) to be a virtual proof of what he called the "entrained
aether theory," according to which Earth carried a vast, rotating pool of
aether with it as it moved around the sun. Result: the aether wind at the
surface of Earth was far less than non-entrained aether theorists expected,
and, indeed, was far less than the experiment was capable of detecting.

As I have noted previously, I believe that the primary aether flow near
Earth's surface is downward near the poles and upward near the equator.
This occurs because the Earth's rotation causes it to act like a big
squirrel-cage blower (i.e., a centrifugal air pump), sucking aether in at
the poles and hurling it outward along its equator. Unfortunately, such a
pattern produces an aether crosswind that would have acted equally on both
legs of the horizontally oriented Michelson interferometer which was used
in the M-M experiment, leading to a null result. (It is my view that each
aether particle has a very small, non-zero gravitational mass, and thus
that *gravitation* is the mechanism by which the aether is entrained.
Motions within the pool of entrained aether, on the other hand, are caused
primarily by rotation of the gravitating body, which gives rise to the
centrifugal pump flow pattern described above.)

In the case of the vast collections of solid bodies known as galaxies,
however, the squirrel-cage blower circulation pattern is reversed. This
occurs because galaxies have "black holes" at their centers where matter is
crushed into the microparticles that LeSage referred to as "ultramundane
corpuscles." (Ultramundane corpuscles were the active agents in his push
theory of gravity.) It is my view that beams of ultramundane corpuscles are
being shot out from the center of the galaxy along its polar axis, both
above and below the galactic disk. Result: aether is being sucked in along
the galactic plane and swallowed up by the "black hole" at the center of
the galaxy. This centrally-directed flow of aether along the galactic disc
sweeps other material, especially dust and gases, toward the galactic
center. Result: objects that would otherwise be in orbit around the center
are deflected into spirals that eventually carry them into the black hole
at the center of the galaxy. Since the clouds of dust and gases become more
and more concentrated toward the center, their slowing effects on the
movements of large masses increase toward the center. Result: the closer a
star is to the galactic center, the further its velocity around that center
is going to fall below the velocity that would be necessary to maintain a
circular orbit at that distance, and the steeper its spiral toward the
black hole is going to be. The implication: it is only the motions of the
outermost stars in a galaxy that are going to be moving fast enough to hold
approximately circular orbits, and so it is only their velocities that can
be used to estimate the galactic mass via the formula M = rV^2/G. And, as
noted above, the reason the calculated value of M is much larger than the
visible matter in the galaxy would indicate is simply that most of the
gravitational mass of the galaxy is bound up in the aether which it
contains.

--Mitchell Jones}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 10:36:22 2001
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Lunar Meteor Impact Rate
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Here is a shocker: the current lunar meteor impact rate is the largest that
it has been in the last 4.5 billion years! The sun is evidently plowing
into a rather dense region of the primordial gas cloud. (See
http://muller.lbl.gov/papers/lunarAbstract.htm#Anchor-plot-53377.) --MJ
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 11:28:54 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Nemesis: The Death Star
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Today I sent the following note to Dr. Richard Muller:

"Hi Richard. I read your book, *Nemesis: The Death Star* several years ago.
The other day, while flipping through it again, it occurred to me that
Nemesis doesn't really have to be in orbit around the sun (Sol). Suppose,
instead, that as Sol bobs up and down in its roughly circular spiral path
around the center of the galaxy, Nemesis is following a similar trajectory,
but with the following difference: Sol bobs up and down with a period of
roughly 26 million years, and Nemesis bobs up and down with a period of
roughly 52 million years. Result: on every half-cycle, which will be about
26 million years, Nemesis will cross the galactic plane--which means: it
will pass near Sol and disrupt the Oort comet cloud. Result: a rain of
comets into the inner solar system. If this theory is correct, then Nemesis
would not have to be a red dwarf: it could be a much larger star that is
typically much farther from the sun than the .73 pc which you supposed in
your book (pg. 106). What do you think? --Mitchell Jones"

I don't know whether he will respond to my note or not, but if anyone in
the group has any comments or criticisms of my modification to his theory,
I'm all ears. (For background on Dr. Muller's theory, see
http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/lbl-nem.htm.)

--Mitchell Jones
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

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Subject: Fw: Regarding Death Threats - and how to avoid them...
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-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Bailey <pgb padrak.com>
To: BCC: UFO_Send_List <pgb padrak.com>; pgb@padrak.com (BCC: Special
Secret_Send List) <pgb padrak.com (BCC: Special Secret_Send List)>
Date: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 11:58 AM
Subject: Regarding Death Threats - and how to avoid them...


>The recent email about "KPFA Radio Report of ETs at Government
>Installations" has prompted me to discuss "death threats".
>
>You will recall that "death threats" have been used to close down
>serious inquiries of several important investigations -
>What Really Happened at Roswell, for one.
>
>In this radio show instance, the death threats were made at the
>speakers - and maybe even the radio show host (I don't know).
>
>At Roswell in 1947, regardless of what really happened there,
>security was effectively enforced by not only threatening the
>witnesses, but moreover also threatening the families and children of
>the witnesses.
>
>My concern is:  Are you willing to live a life based on fear?
>
>The so-called secret Masonic legend of "the widow's son" rings loud
>and clear in my ears!
>
>If you have information that is worth sharing, or if you know of
>someone who has information worth sharing, then get the information
>OUT in such a way, that the source remains "hidden".  What matters is
>(1) the message, and (2) the integrity of the message - i.e. that it
>is true so far as the witness knows.
>
>I can't begin to tell you how many facts you see in the US Press and
>on TV are absolute LIES - because of people living out of fear.
>
>If you want to live that way - get out of all UFO inquiries,
>alternate energy inquiries, AIDS inquiries, and Health inquiries -
>and eat at McDonald's until you die.
>
>I will support those who get the truth out, while maintaining their
>integrity, and while maintaining their life and liberty.
>
>In case you have forgotten, chess is played by TWO players, and no
>religious book ever published has ever said that people have to
>always be nice.
>

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-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Bailey <pgb padrak.com>
To: BCC: UFO_Send_List <pgb padrak.com>; pgb@padrak.com (BCC: Special
Secret_Send List) <pgb padrak.com (BCC: Special Secret_Send List)>
Date: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 11:59 AM
Subject: FWD: KPFA Radio Report of ETs at Government Installations


>FWD:  KPFA Radio Report of ETs at Government Installations
>
>Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 21:16:43 -0700
>From: drboylan <drboylan jps.net>
>To: ufotruth <UFOTruth listbot.com>,drrichboylanreports
><DrRichBoylanReports listbot.com>
>Subject: KPFA Radio Report of ETs at Government Installations
>X-Rcpt-To: pgb padrak.com
>
>Prefatory Message from Richard Boylan, Ph.D.:
>
>I heard this tape from KPFA-FM, Berkeley, and know the
>interviewer-producer, Ralph Steiner. Ralph is a professional
>journalist and man of integrty, and has paid dearly for bring these
>interviews to public attention by broasdcast. He was aided in the
>research by Michael Lindemann.
>
>The brave citizens whose testimony fills this electrifying tape merit
>our admiration and appreciation for their courage in coming forward
>during the height of the UFO Cover-Up (1991).
>
>I doubt that Mr. Steiner will make copies of the KPFA tape available,
>since he has been warned that the witnesses will be killed if it is
>aired again. But KPFA's Berkeley station contact phone number should
>be available from information at (510) 555-1212.
>
>FYI, Dr. Michael Wolf has corroborated the high-tech,
>electromagnetic, ET-containment field technology described by one of
>the contractors interviewed as being used at Haystack Air Force
>Laboratory deep under Haystack Buttes in east Edwards Air Force Base,
>near Lancaster, CA.
>
>- Richard Boylan, Ph.D.
>
>WITNESSES CLAIM THEY SAW ALIENS AT U.S. BASES
>
>By Elaine Douglass
>
>The U.S. government has a close working relationship with alien
>beings, three unnamed witnesses told a California radio station in a
>program aired in June.
>
>The four-hour program, produced and broadcast by KPFA-FM in Berkeley,
>Calif., ranged widely over the UFO topic, but the most explosive
>segments were the testimony of a construction contractor who said he
>saw aliens at Edwards Air Force Base and at the China Lake Naval
>Weapons facility in California; the testimony of a man who described
>"saucers" being launched from a Northrop facility near Edwards; and a
>woman's second-hand account of a meeting between aliens and U.S.
>military officers.
>
>Moreover, it now appears that KPFA's voice in the UFO area has been
silenced.
>
>Although in June the program producer Ralph Steiner promised
>additional coverage of the UFO issue in future broadcasts, inquires
>from the Forum were met with this blunt message from Mr. Steiner: "Do
>not re-broadcast the tape. Persons whose testimony is on the tape
>have been threatened and their lives are in danger." Subsequent
>inquiries from The Forum to Mr. Steiner have gone unanswered.
>
>The Forum has obtained a tape of the KPFA broadcast. What follows is
>a summary and excerpts from witness:
>
>No. 1.
>
>According to the KPFA broadcast, the interviews were conducted in
>April 1991 in communities surrounding Edwards Air Force Base in the
>Antelope Valley of Southern California. Witness No. 1 described
>himself as a Vietnam veteran, former Green Beret, military
>medal-holder, and a licensed general contractor who has worked on
>construction projects at Chuna Lake and at Nellis, Scott, Edwards,
>and Andrews Air Force Bases. The projects, the witness said, were
>"mostly underground."
>
>* Underground Structures, Alien Beings
>
>Each of these facilities has extensive underground installations, and
>they are "definitely not normal military structures," the witness
>said. He described 4-foot thick concrete walls and
>electronically-controlled oval-shaped doorways. "In one building I
>worked on at Edwards, called Haystack Buttes, [Haystack USAF
>Laboratory - R.Boylan] it took us over 5 minutes to get from the top
>to the bottom by elevator," the witness said. "We estimated it was 30
>stories deep." It was here that the witness first saw an alien. "We
>were walking down a hall," the witness said, "and these doors opened
>and there was a very particular person or things that caught my eye
>for an instant. This man was over seven feet tall. I'd say between 8
>and 9 to 10 feet, wearing a lab jacket and talking to two [human]
>engineers.
>
>"This man's arms were almost down to his knees! It threw me into
>shock," the witness said. "And then the doors closed. Security saw us
>and told us to get out of there. Next day I walked off the job," the
>witness said.
>
>Asked if the being he saw was a human, the witness replied,
>"Definitely not. He had big slanted eyes. A big head. Fingers were
>extremely long. Greenish skin." The witness said he saw the being for
>"just a couple of seconds. Three-quarters of its face is what I saw
>and I said, this guy would make a hell of a basketball player!"
>
>* One Witness Scared, the Other Dead
>
>The witness said his co-worker " 'bout died" when he too saw the
>being. The witness compared the height of the being to the height of
>the humans standing next to it. He said he knew one of the humans,
>whose height he estimated at 6 feet 6 inches.
>
>Witness No. 1 described a second encounter with aliens. He said he
>and co-workers saw "greys" at the China Lake [Naval Weapons Research
>Station, near Ridgecrest, CA - R Boylan] naval facility.
>
>"They [security] thought we had left--me and two other guys. But we
>decided to stay over and finish this job. We walked past a hangar and
>we could see through a window," the witness said.
>
>"One of the guys I was with, Paul, he saw them first. He said, 'Come
>here! Hurry up! I want to show you something!' And we looked in the
>window and there's these four little grey guys about 3 feet tall.
>
>"Right then, security saw us and they told us, 'We thought you guys
>left.' And they escorted us and said, 'You're not allowed around this
>hangar. This hangar is off- limits to everybody. You'll get yourself
>shot.'
>
>"And it messed with Paul's mind so much that every chance he got he
>snuck over there. He finally got caught and was kicked off the base.
>About three months later they found him mysteriously dead in Orange
>County. This kind of put a scare in me. I know why not to mess with
>something," the witness said.
>
>"After that I said, Ain't nobody pulling the blanket over my head any
>more. l know what's going on now. I know what I saw at Edwards is
>real. Somebody's playing games with us," the witness said.
>
>It should be noted that KPFA is one of five "Pacifica" stations, the
>first of which was founded in the late 1940s. The Pacifica stations,
>in New York, Berkeley, Los Angeles, Fresno, and Washington, D.C., are
>alternative, non- commercial and listener-sponsored, with a long
>tradition of political activism and precedent-making First Amendment
>struggles.
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>Shared by:
>Richard J. Boylan, Ph.D., CCHT, LLC
>Post Office Box 22310
>Sacramento, CA 95822, USA.
>(916) 422-7479
>E-mail: drboylan jps.net
>URL: www.jps.net/drboylan
>
>You are invited to join his informational reports and conversations
>on-line list, UFOTruth by going to http://UFOTruth.listbot.com and
>clicking on the Subscribe button and following directions.
>
>You may instead wish to join his personal reports-only list (no
>conversations), DrRichBoylanReports by subscribing at:
>http://DrRichBoylanReports.listbot.com
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 13:50:51 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <c3.11912951.284e9bcd aol.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:32:13 EDT
Subject: RE: Fusion Reactor
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
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Greeting to all list members,

Thank you for allowing me to participate in this forum. I will do my best to 
answer any questions you may have about this strange device which I will soon 
have a US patent on. There are some topics I cannot comment about, however 
they relate to current and future projects that are direct derivative of the 
pulsed plasma technology.

Even though I personally wrote my patent to be a blueprint to construction, 
it is for the most part - unheard of technology. 

The device should be looked upon as a complete system, not just a motor, 
generator, Pulsed Plasma producer or a particle accelerator - it is all of 
these things and much more.

Fusion and Richard Hull. Even though I have never met Richard, I respect him 
and his relentless pursuit of Farnsworth's gifts to us all. Without Dr. Hull 
- Farnsworth might not even be a memory.  In our communications he has always 
been professional and scientific. Please allow me to provide his fusor 
neutron count as he calculated it at 200,000 N/sec.

I am an explorer and experimenter, not a scientist as fellow list members 
are. 

I have built a strange device indeed - and I have been seeking solid 
scientific validation, however testing has been elusive. I may not articulate 
in standard scientific nomenclature - for this I apologize, however I will do 
my best to be understood.

Best wishes to all,
Chris Arnold

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 14:31:15 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ultraviolet Lamp Neutron Generator?
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 07:29:47 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 5 Jun 2001 04:36:06
-0500:
[snip]
>The liberated neutrons can be used to fission Lithium 7 forming 2 He4 or Boron 10
>forming He4 and Li7 concurrently releasing energy.
>
>I haven't the guts to try this.   :-)
[snip]
I wouldn't worry too much Fred, Dr. Mills does his damnedest to create
hydrinos, and AFAIK has seen very little if any nuclear activity. I
think most of his shrunken particles escape before they shrink far
enough to do any "good".


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 14:41:42 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <temalloy metro.lakes.com>, <herman@antioch-college.edu>, <pgb@padrak.com>
Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:23:51 -0700
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The book is not too much on his intrepretation  of key free energy systems
just some very basic and extensive information that Peter has spent many
years gathering about the Gray Motor Patents and experimentation and  also
some similar on Tesla's radiant energy devices. You can save a lot of time
and money doing a literature search before trying your ideas out in
experimentation. I am not sure who this Frederick  character is but he
sounds pretty closeminded, know it all,  perhaps a very regimented German or
Dutchman. I would like to know what sucesses he has had in the energy or
other related fields. I know a few inventors that have found how to heat
water in a revolutionary way and will be visiting one soon but i am sure he
is not going to share his key secrets on any level  with some  know it all
vortexians or want all info for free.    Most of the good talented inventors
have spent 10 years and thousands of dollars of their hard earned money,
getting their free energy devices to an acceptable level or gathering
information and printing a book and can't afford to take the time to answer
all questions. Most real talented inventors do not need to waste their time
networking the net.  Bruce
-----Original Message----ed
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, June 03, 2001 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy


>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
>>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>>Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>; <knagel@gis.net>; <tom@rhfweb.com>
>>Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 12:47 PM
>>Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
>>
>>Bruce,
>>
>>I think you would've been better off to have spent that $37.00 plus S & H
on a
>>"Shrink".  :-)
>>
>>Regards,   Frederick
>
>I agree, I linked to Dr. Lindermann's site from Jerry Decker's site.
>I asked him some pointed questions. I have yet to receive a reply.
>Bottom line, anybody can write a book, but it takes a break through
>to heat water.
>
>>
>>
>>>  I think you serious tinkerers would save a lot of time and money if you
>>>  purchased the recent published book "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold
>>  > Electricity by Dr. Peter Lindemann for about $37, includes shipping
and
>
>

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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: The Primordial Gas
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 14:50:17 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mitchell Jones" <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud

I think you missed the mark, Mr. Jones.

The gravitational force of the Sun on a water molecule at 5.0 AU is ~ 7.1E-30 newtons.
The force from a 2.5 eV photon on a water molecule is
~1.3E-27 newtons. Since (~ 80%) of the ~ 54 watts/meter^2 from the Sun at is in the
infrared (~ 0.1 eV to ~1.7eV) the photon pressure CAN create a "Bubble" of
10 AU Diameter or less.

Go figure, and study up on the Heliopause.  :-)

Regards, Frederick


> Fred Sparber wrote:
>
> >I picked 5.2 AU (The Mean Orbit of Jupiter) or less, as a radius wrt the
> >Sun in AU
> >where the onslaught of Photon Pressure and  Solar Wind might allow a Moon like
> > Europa to retain it's atmosphere.
> >
> >IOW, the Jovian planets would be a lot smaller if they were closer to the
> >Sun.  :-)
> >> Your concept is that
> >> photon pressure from the sun will tend to resist the movement of individual
> >> gas molecules toward the sun, and I will grant that. However, the question
> >> of interest in each case is how far out from the sun does the photon
> >> pressure exceed the pull of gravity on the molecule, and I see no simple
> >> way to compute that without knowing the photon impact cross section of the
> >> molecule in question, and I would have no idea where to obtain that
> >> information. (You can't just sum the cross-sectional areas of the outer
> >> orbits of the atoms in the molecule, because many photons will pass through
> >> that area without hitting anything.) Therefore, how about supplying a
> >> detailed calculation, so that I can better evaluate what you are saying?
> >
> >Tomorrow soon enough?
>
> ***{Since "tomorrow" would have been May 26 and it is now June 5, I assume
> you have been no more successful in obtaining the needed cross-sections
> than I. Therefore I am going to make a run at this by simply assuming that
> the cross-sectional area of the ground-state electron orbit will reflect
> every photon that tries to pass through it. Using that assumption, the
> calculated photon pressure on an atomic system will be considerably larger
> than is actually the case, and the radius of your "bubble" will accordingly
> be larger as well. Nevertheless, it seems worthwhile to calculate what that
> radius actually is, so that we can see the limitations of your idea a bit
> more clearly.
>
> The insolation at Earth's orbit is about 1360 watts/m^2, so total solar
> luminosity is 1360(4¼r^2) = 1360{4¼[(93x10^6)(5280)(12)(2.54)/100]^2} =
> 3.83x10^26 watts, or 3.83x10^33 ergs/sec.
>
> Therefore the generalized expression for insolation is 3.83x10^33/4¼r^2 =
> 3.05x10^32/r^2 ergs/cm^2-sec.
>
> The typical solar photon has a wavelength of about w = 4700 Å and an energy
> of E = hc/w = (6.62x10^-27)(3x10^10)/(4700)(10^-8) = 4.23x10^-12 ergs.
>
> Thus the number of such photons per sec per cm^2 is N = (3.05x10^32/r^2
> ergs/cm^2-sec)/(4.23x10^-12 ergs) = (7.21x10^43/r^2)/cm^2-sec.
>
> Each such photon, depending on its point of impact, will impart to the
> hydrogen atom a momentum away from the sun that varies from 2E/c for a
> center hit to 0 for a negligible grazing impact. Thus I am going to take
> E/c as the average change in momentum per impact--that is: E/c =
> (4.23x10^-12 ergs)/(3x10^10 cm/sec) = 1.41x10^-22 erg-sec/cm.
>
> The solar photon pressure per unit area on a hydrogen atom is therefore P =
> N(E/c) = (7.21x10^43/r^2/cm^2-sec)(1.41x10^-22 erg-sec/cm) = 1.02x10^22/r^2
> erg-sec/cm^3-sec = 1.02x10^22/r^2 ergs/cm^3 = 1.02x10^22/r^2 dynes/cm^2.
>
> The cross-sectional area of the electron shell of a ground-state hydrogen
> atom is A = ¼r^2 = ¼(.53x10^-8)^2 =  8.8x10^-17 cm^2.
>
> Therefore the outward force exerted by solar radiation on a monoatomic
> hydrogen atom is roughly Fo = P*A = (1.02x10^22/r^2 dynes/cm^2)(8.8x10^-17
> cm^2) =  8.95x10^5/r^2 dynes.
>
> The inward force exerted by the sun's gravity on a monoatomic hydrogen atom
> is Fi = GMm/r^2 = (6.67x10^-8)(1.9891x10^33)(1.657x10^-24)/r^2 =
> 2.20x10^2/r^2 dynes.
>
> The implication: Fo is always greater than Fi--which means hydrogen gas
> cannot approach the sun.
>
> More importantly, both photon pressure and gravitational force vary as the
> inverse square of the distance from the sun. Result: if for a particular
> molecular species Fo > Fi at any radius, then Fo > Fi at *every* radius.
>
> Since at the outer limit of the Fred Sparber bubble Fo = Fi, it follows
> that the Fred Sparber bubble does not, and cannot, exist.
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >
> >OTOH, watching the separated tail of a comet move around like a
> >"Con-Trail" from a
> >jet-liner gives an good
> >indication of Solar Photon-Wind sweeping action.
>
> ***{Yes, but there is no "bubble." If at any distance from the sun the
> photon repulsion of a gas molecule is greater than the gravitational
> attraction, that will be the case at all distances. Thus the only way
> molecules of the banned species can approach the sun is if they are
> aggregated together in larger bodies. (Since the attractive gravitational
> force on an object is proportional to the cube of its radius and the photon
> repulsion is proportional to the square of its radius, the aggregation of
> molecules into larger particles shifts the balance in favor of attraction.)
>
> The implication is that the sun isn't sweeping up any gases--or, at least,
> any light gases. Instead, individual atoms and molecules in the space
> surrounding the sun must aggregate into larger particles--e.g., crystals of
> methane, ammonia, carbon dioxide, or water  ice--before the balance can be
> shifted in favor of attraction. Moreover, since the surfaces of such
> aggregates are blasted away by photon pressure as the sun is approached,
> they must be rather large to actually make it into the sun itself.
>
> Therefore in the region outside the planetary disc there must be a
> mind-boggling accumulation of orbiting ice crystals, comets, and dust, due
> simply to the sun's rejection of small objects that approach it. By
> repelling the low-mass molecules, it  ensures that they will eventually
> aggregate together into larger objects--e.g., small comets--before they are
> finally able to move into the inner solar system.
>
> Bottom line: if the pioneer anomaly is due to the effects of aether flow
> outward along the planetary disc, as I have suggested, then there should be
> a continuous movement of small comets into the planetary disc from the
> regions above and below it.
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >Regards,   Frederick
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
>
> "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
> be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers
>

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I guess what i have been hinting at is 2  wizzards that I am aware of(there
is probably more) have already done it but it has taken 10 years of their
time and money doing it and they can't get patents and have been threatened
not to bring the technology to market. One is hole up in one of the larger
islands in the Pacific and is looking for the right funder and is doing well
using the technology to probe for underground precious metal stashes and has
the protection of the island govt.  The other is trying to find a similar
type situation.  The reason i am mentioning the situation at all is trying
to find the right kind of funder that has international contacts and knowhow
to bring to market. And  suggestions of how they might proceed to save the
planet so to speak for future generations in spite of this very dominant
global energy cartel. Trust me they have broke the code. Bruce(Covering this
type technology for 12 years)
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, June 04, 2001 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue


>In reply to  Bruce Meland's message of Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:38:47 -0700:
>
>>After observing the energy generated from nutrino type particles, and
>>perhaps magnetic fields of earth and stars if they are present here on
earth
>>in sufficient quanity(stars magnetic fields overlapping the earth), light
>>particles from the sun seem insignificant. Other cosmic rays, such as
mesons
>>may also be involved. Bruce
>Face it Bruce, until someone comes up with a real stand alone device
>that pours out kWs, we aren't going to have a clue where the energy
>comes from, if indeed it does.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>New model hydrogen atom see
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 15:36:58 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fusion Reactor
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 08:35:16 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Hypercom59 aol.com's message of Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:32:13
EDT:

>Greeting to all list members,
>
>Thank you for allowing me to participate in this forum. 
[snip]
Welcome Chris. :)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 15:37:03 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 14:20:41 -0700
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 Jed I amd not berating the cold fusion researchers accomplishments but if
one has a solid state device that converts cosmic energy  directly to
electricity, it is a slam dunk and won't take years and millions of dollars
for pilot plants. And besides this technology is of proper economy of scale
that one need not have centralized power distribution and economic control.
The technology is just too  revolutionary   and risks  energy stock
portfolios of the high and mighty. Just recently Judge Sandra OConor(sp?)
could not rule on a  energy case because she owned stock in the company.
Also perhaps these divices operate at such high frequencies only black
budget technology can detect their operation and  hence exercise control
measures..  Bruce- ----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing


>I wrote:
>
>>I am assuming that the machine is real, and there are other people in the
>>world who know that, and would be anxious to download the information. If
>>the machine were not real, the government would not hear about it, or
>>bother to raid the laboratory. They can't go after every fruitcake who
>>claims over-unity or anti-gravity!
>
>That's a little confusing. What I mean is that the data would have to be
>extremely compelling to attract attention from the government. The
>government does not even believe CF. Manpower and resources would only be
>allocated to suppress a claim with a high level of proof, or many credible
>eyewitness accounts, or prototypes floating around. No government is large
>enough to chase down every claim.
>
>We know for a fact that many people who make these claims have been at it
>years without the slightest interference by the government. Some of them,
>like Correa and Mills, have pretty good evidence, and others have
>irrefutable evidence. If the black helicopter suppression brigades exist,
>they are grossly incompetent, since they have left Mills, Mizuno and Storms
>unmolested. I do not believe they are so smart they can be sure Storms or
>Mizuno will never find a way to control the reaction and scale up.
>
>Data so compelling it convinces the government would also attract attention
>from other governments, and corporations. If you put it on Internet or
>started e-mailing it around, word would soon reach a larger audience than
>the government could suppress. It would be like trying to erase all memory
>of the "IT" scooter.
>
>The world does not work like a third rate thriller novel. Real suppression
>of innovation by the government exists, naturally. But it is a tedious,
>mundane everyday event, carried out by grey men wearing suits mumbling into
>the microphones at physics conferences and congressional budget hearings.
>It does not call for helicopters, guns, or midnight raids. There is no
>drama. All it takes is paperwork and maybe a few phone calls to highly
>placed opinionated newspaper reporters.
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 16:03:14 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Ultraviolet Lamp Neutron Generator?
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:59:26 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Ultraviolet Lamp Neutron Generator?

Robin wrote:


> In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 5 Jun 2001 04:36:06
> -0500:
> [snip]
> >The liberated neutrons can be used to fission Lithium 7 forming 2 He4 or Boron 10
> >forming He4 and Li7 concurrently releasing energy.
> >
> >I haven't the guts to try this.   :-)
> [snip]
> I wouldn't worry too much Fred, Dr. Mills does his damnedest to create
> hydrinos, and AFAIK has seen very little if any nuclear activity. I
> think most of his shrunken particles escape before they shrink far
> enough to do any "good".

Has he used Deuterium?

Stripping of Deuterons occurs at plasma temperatures as low as 0.5 eV. The UV lamp
photon output goes up to 6.7 eV with most of the energy at 4.9 eV. And doesn't require
Mills' "Physics".
Regards,  Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> New model hydrogen atom see
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 19:01:04 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 21:58:22 EDT
Subject: RE: Fusion Reactor
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<Welcome Chris. :)
Regards,
Robin van Spaandonk>

Greeting to you also Robin,

Regards,
Chris Arnold
For a Fusion powered future
http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 20:21:13 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Egad! No More Martians?
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 10:51:38 -0700
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On Sunday 03 June 2001 14:37, Rick Monteverde wrote:
> Standing B. -
> 
> >Hopefully that will not give you a headache.  You
> >know, those surfboards must hurt when you wipe out on
> >a big wave and the old board just then has the perverse
> >intelligence to come behing you and nail you right behind
> >the ear.
> 
> Dude, I only bodysurf on big waves. No (fiber)glass needed when I fly 
> through the big shiny transport tubes on *this* planet, dig?
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

Gotcha dude!   But then again I remember as a kid havin a friend
that liked to play in electronics.  Needed wire and it was expensive,
so he hung around the back of the local telephone exchange in
town.  They were real buildings then and used vacuum tubes and
stepper relays in their logic circuitry.  They often threw away short
pieces of  multiconductor cable that he could use.  Each length
consisted of about 200 or so twisted pairs of multicolored wire
covered by a multilayer sheath topped with a heavy layer of
rubber or polyethylene.  One of the sheathing materials was
corrugated aluminum.  If one removed this aluminum and half
buried it in sand and played around a bit with a camera, one
could come up with a pic just like that.  But then some woman
could do the same with the hose from a portable hair dryer.
	Incidentally, Duane was a real whiz in building those
radios out of junk.  Once he built a citizens band radio with about
10000 watts output that, according to him, garbled every television
set in town.  

Standing Bear 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 21:25:35 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fw: KPFA Radio Report of ETs at Government Installations
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 00:27:08 -0700
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On Tuesday 05 June 2001 12:05, Bruce Meland wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrick Bailey <pgb padrak.com>
> To: BCC: UFO_Send_List <pgb padrak.com>; pgb@padrak.com (BCC: Special
> Secret_Send List) <pgb padrak.com (BCC: Special Secret_Send List)>
> Date: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 11:59 AM
> Subject: FWD: KPFA Radio Report of ETs at Government Installations
> 
> 
> >FWD:  KPFA Radio Report of ETs at Government Installations
> >
> >Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 21:16:43 -0700
> >From: drboylan <drboylan jps.net>
> >To: ufotruth <UFOTruth listbot.com>,drrichboylanreports
> ><DrRichBoylanReports listbot.com>
> >Subject: KPFA Radio Report of ETs at Government Installations
> >X-Rcpt-To: pgb padrak.com
> >
> >Prefatory Message from Richard Boylan, Ph.D.:
> >
> >I heard this tape from KPFA-FM, Berkeley, and know the
> >interviewer-producer, Ralph Steiner. Ralph is a professional
> >journalist and man of integrty, and has paid dearly for bring these
> >interviews to public attention by broasdcast. He was aided in the
> >research by Michael Lindemann.
> >
> >The brave citizens whose testimony fills this electrifying tape merit
> >our admiration and appreciation for their courage in coming forward
> >during the height of the UFO Cover-Up (1991).
> >
> >I doubt that Mr. Steiner will make copies of the KPFA tape available,
> >since he has been warned that the witnesses will be killed if it is
> >aired again. But KPFA's Berkeley station contact phone number should
> >be available from information at (510) 555-1212.
> >
> >FYI, Dr. Michael Wolf has corroborated the high-tech,
> >electromagnetic, ET-containment field technology described by one of
> >the contractors interviewed as being used at Haystack Air Force
> >Laboratory deep under Haystack Buttes in east Edwards Air Force Base,
> >near Lancaster, CA.
> >
> >- Richard Boylan, Ph.D.
> >
> >WITNESSES CLAIM THEY SAW ALIENS AT U.S. BASES
> >
> >By Elaine Douglass
> >
> >The U.S. government has a close working relationship with alien
> >beings, three unnamed witnesses told a California radio station in a
> >program aired in June.
> >
> >The four-hour program, produced and broadcast by KPFA-FM in Berkeley,
> >Calif., ranged widely over the UFO topic, but the most explosive
> >segments were the testimony of a construction contractor who said he
> >saw aliens at Edwards Air Force Base and at the China Lake Naval
> >Weapons facility in California; the testimony of a man who described
> >"saucers" being launched from a Northrop facility near Edwards; and a
> >woman's second-hand account of a meeting between aliens and U.S.
> >military officers.
> >
> >Moreover, it now appears that KPFA's voice in the UFO area has been
> silenced.
> >
> >Although in June the program producer Ralph Steiner promised
> >additional coverage of the UFO issue in future broadcasts, inquires
> >from the Forum were met with this blunt message from Mr. Steiner: "Do
> >not re-broadcast the tape. Persons whose testimony is on the tape
> >have been threatened and their lives are in danger." Subsequent
> >inquiries from The Forum to Mr. Steiner have gone unanswered.
> >
> >The Forum has obtained a tape of the KPFA broadcast. What follows is
> >a summary and excerpts from witness:
> >
> >No. 1.
> >
> >According to the KPFA broadcast, the interviews were conducted in
> >April 1991 in communities surrounding Edwards Air Force Base in the
> >Antelope Valley of Southern California. Witness No. 1 described
> >himself as a Vietnam veteran, former Green Beret, military
> >medal-holder, and a licensed general contractor who has worked on
> >construction projects at Chuna Lake and at Nellis, Scott, Edwards,
> >and Andrews Air Force Bases. The projects, the witness said, were
> >"mostly underground."
> >
> >* Underground Structures, Alien Beings
> >
> >Each of these facilities has extensive underground installations, and
> >they are "definitely not normal military structures," the witness
> >said. He described 4-foot thick concrete walls and
> >electronically-controlled oval-shaped doorways. "In one building I
> >worked on at Edwards, called Haystack Buttes, [Haystack USAF
> >Laboratory - R.Boylan] it took us over 5 minutes to get from the top
> >to the bottom by elevator," the witness said. "We estimated it was 30
> >stories deep." It was here that the witness first saw an alien. "We
> >were walking down a hall," the witness said, "and these doors opened
> >and there was a very particular person or things that caught my eye
> >for an instant. This man was over seven feet tall. I'd say between 8
> >and 9 to 10 feet, wearing a lab jacket and talking to two [human]
> >engineers.
> >
> >"This man's arms were almost down to his knees! It threw me into
> >shock," the witness said. "And then the doors closed. Security saw us
> >and told us to get out of there. Next day I walked off the job," the
> >witness said.
> >
> >Asked if the being he saw was a human, the witness replied,
> >"Definitely not. He had big slanted eyes. A big head. Fingers were
> >extremely long. Greenish skin." The witness said he saw the being for
> >"just a couple of seconds. Three-quarters of its face is what I saw
> >and I said, this guy would make a hell of a basketball player!"
> >
> >* One Witness Scared, the Other Dead
> >
> >The witness said his co-worker " 'bout died" when he too saw the
> >being. The witness compared the height of the being to the height of
> >the humans standing next to it. He said he knew one of the humans,
> >whose height he estimated at 6 feet 6 inches.
> >
> >Witness No. 1 described a second encounter with aliens. He said he
> >and co-workers saw "greys" at the China Lake [Naval Weapons Research
> >Station, near Ridgecrest, CA - R Boylan] naval facility.
> >
> >"They [security] thought we had left--me and two other guys. But we
> >decided to stay over and finish this job. We walked past a hangar and
> >we could see through a window," the witness said.
> >
> >"One of the guys I was with, Paul, he saw them first. He said, 'Come
> >here! Hurry up! I want to show you something!' And we looked in the
> >window and there's these four little grey guys about 3 feet tall.
> >
> >"Right then, security saw us and they told us, 'We thought you guys
> >left.' And they escorted us and said, 'You're not allowed around this
> >hangar. This hangar is off- limits to everybody. You'll get yourself
> >shot.'
> >
> >"And it messed with Paul's mind so much that every chance he got he
> >snuck over there. He finally got caught and was kicked off the base.
> >About three months later they found him mysteriously dead in Orange
> >County. This kind of put a scare in me. I know why not to mess with
> >something," the witness said.
> >
> >"After that I said, Ain't nobody pulling the blanket over my head any
> >more. l know what's going on now. I know what I saw at Edwards is
> >real. Somebody's playing games with us," the witness said.
> >
> >It should be noted that KPFA is one of five "Pacifica" stations, the
> >first of which was founded in the late 1940s. The Pacifica stations,
> >in New York, Berkeley, Los Angeles, Fresno, and Washington, D.C., are
> >alternative, non- commercial and listener-sponsored, with a long
> >tradition of political activism and precedent-making First Amendment
> >struggles.
> >
> >++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> >Shared by:
> >Richard J. Boylan, Ph.D., CCHT, LLC
> >Post Office Box 22310
> >Sacramento, CA 95822, USA.
> >(916) 422-7479
> >E-mail: drboylan jps.net
> >URL: www.jps.net/drboylan
> >
> >You are invited to join his informational reports and conversations
> >on-line list, UFOTruth by going to http://UFOTruth.listbot.com and
> >clicking on the Subscribe button and following directions.
> >
> >You may instead wish to join his personal reports-only list (no
> >conversations), DrRichBoylanReports by subscribing at:
> >http://DrRichBoylanReports.listbot.com
> >
> >

If we have actually seen, met, communicated with, and made
working arrangements with these people, that makes me feel
better about the universe.  Now we all know:
     1]  We are not alone
     2]  There sentient neighbors to us somewhere
     3]  Einstein is full of crap somewhere in his theories or
               in their bypassability
     4]  We have a chance to fit into a stellar community somewhere
     5]   These aliens are willing and able to work with us
	Regarding the 'death threats'.  Lots of military installations
have areas where you can be shot if trespassing.  I am sure that those bases
had signs in the front regarding the various US Internal Security
Acts and the consequences for their violation.  Remember that
spying is sometime a capital offense.  
	In this case, the ramifications of the world knowing these
facts, if that is what they and I hope that is true, would be truly
great.  For one thing, many of the 'inventions' of the last generation
would make more sense considering the extremely elevated pace
of new discoveries.  It would be as if we were being guided in
learning enabling technologies for further advances which then
somehow appear as if arising out a hidden script.  For another,
Mr. Tarik Aziz, an Iraqi diplomat not given to hyperbole out of
deference to keeping his body from being chopped into hamburger
by certain members of Saadam's family, once made a claim that
craft were seen on radar over Iraq with velocities over 9000 KPH,
and coming from Coalition bases.  My guess is that some of the
'Stealth' Fighters are special.  Look at them.  They are round.
Think of form follows function, like a toilet.  Round would be
good.  Think upper and lower 'NingLi'  synth-gravity field
generator coils.  Implications of this would be negation of
the inertia principle in between the coils inside the craft. Other
implications would be a kind of shield effect from projectiles.
If the field operates on space, expanding and contracting it
at will, then the whatever will never arrive to damage the
protected craft.  Further, the craft could travel at any 'speed'
desired within the limits of local suitability.
	Question is, what is our worth to our new friends?
Certainly we do not have anything that they can't make or
somehow get in the line of resources.  Our services would
be too low tech for them, but maybe not.  Suppose that they
are advanced in some areas and behind in others, such
that a real give and take would be possible.  The Betty and
Barney Hill story tells of Laparoscopy before we had the
ability.  If true, it lends credence to the story on the one
hand, and casts doubt on the well roundedness of the
'advanced' people who had the Hills as guests.  We now
use ultrasound, a less invasive procedure for these tests;
are we to suppose that folks on another world were able
to build starships but lacked in other technical areas like
medical technology.  Such is the pace of discovery.
Suppose they had a brilliant scientist(s) who made these
discoveries in some areas and not others.
	There are many of us, maybe we would be good
for military service if adaptable enough.  Suppose that 
we are already allies but dare not be too obtrusive.  Our
friends may have enemies too, and agents of those people
may be here nosing around for evidence of just that
arrangement.  These are very serious speculations that
we can make only because we do not really know
so do not have to be held accountable.  Anybody can
guess.
	Given the availability of interstellar travel methods
notwithstanding the obstructionism of Einstein religious 
desciples, it was rotten ripe time for us to be visited.  After
all, we have been blithely polluting the area with our
EM broadcasting for over 100 years.  Well long enough
for someone's taxpayers to pay for scouting a way through
space to here from wherever so that ships could then
travel the route relatively safely.  You see, I think that
sentient civilizations will all basically operate the same
way.  People support governments that serve them
and foster advancement in various ways.   Who knows
what kind of trade they may be interested in.
	Seeing as civilized societies are often deficient
in biodiversity, ours may be more valuable than we 
realize.  Who knows, some frog from Brazil may be
able to cure a disease among people of Epsilon
Eridani?   On the other hand, if we cannot get along
with people we can at least have children with;
then what are we going to do when we have to
get along with those who are very alien to us
yet are about equal or somewhat better than us
in intelligence.   We will have to grow too!

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  5 21:31:12 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ultraviolet Lamp Neutron Generator?
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 14:28:39 +1000
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:59:26
-0500:
[snip]
>> I wouldn't worry too much Fred, Dr. Mills does his damnedest to create
>> hydrinos, and AFAIK has seen very little if any nuclear activity. I
>> think most of his shrunken particles escape before they shrink far
>> enough to do any "good".
>
>Has he used Deuterium?
Sorry, I don't know. However surely even the deuterium in normal
hydrogen would present some signature? For that matter, you could try it
with normal hydrogen and look for neutrons. If you got some, you could
slowly increase the deuterium percentage.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 06:01:06 2001
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Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 17:47:18 +0530
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I manufacture vacuum discharge tubes with aluminium electrodes
with high vacuum for use as cathode ray tubes, as also filled with
various gases, after complete evacuation, but when worked with
4.5 or 6 kv 8 microamp currents, the sides of the tubes around 
electrodes get blackened probably due to sputtering. Could some
one suggest how to prepare the aluminium electrodes, or process 
them or what else precautions to take while evacuating that 
sputtering does not occur.
.
Sanjeev

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 07:54:19 2001
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Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 07:49:51 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Sputtering in Vacuum tubes
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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>Could some one suggest how to prepare the aluminium electrodes, or process 
>them or what else precautions to take while evacuating that  sputtering does 
>not occur.

Greetings,
It took commercial manufactures years to control this problem and I doubt that 
the numerous partial solutions which are available are easily implemented 
without significant engineering investment.

There is some information to be found on the web at sites like Samuel 
Goldwasser's:
Sam's F-Lamp FAQ :  Fluorescent Lamps, Ballasts, and Fixtures
http://www.misty.com/people/don/f-lamp.html.
or do Google search using keywords like: fluorescent tube sputtering

In general, sputtering is most severe during start up, and a fluorescent tube will 
only start a few thousand times before its electrodes fail. Going to electronically 
controlled startup ciruitry is a partially effective (but a costly) solution that can 
also significantly save energy as  fluorescent tubes are far more efficient at 
certain higher frequencies (ion acoustic) than at 50 or 60 hz. The fixture itself is 
out of your control, of course, but there are some design features that can enter 
into the mix to control sputtering. Bare aluminum is not a good choice for 
electrodes as it sputters very easily, but it is cheap. It could probably be used 
as a substrate with proper heavy plating or anodizing. The structural shape  is 
also important. I have noticed that some manufacturers are using a double 
wedge shaped electrode that is severely angled so that the sputtered electrode 
material is forced back into the ends where it is partially hidden by the end 
caps- which is an admission that the problem is as much cosmetic as practical 
(i.e. most manufactures think they are better off with a little "planned" 
obsolesence).

BTW, are you doing any "free energy" experiments with custom fills? 

If so and you are interested in some ideas relating to the Mills hydrino, please 
let me know (you can post to me directly).

Jones Beene


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 08:58:33 2001
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Lindermann's book
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>The book is not too much on his intrepretation  of key free energy systems
>just some very basic and extensive information that Peter has spent many
>years gathering about the Gray Motor Patents and experimentation and  also
>some similar on Tesla's radiant energy devices. You can save a lot of time

You can also waste a lot of money and time by reading books of people 
who have done nothing but rehash what other inventors claim to have 
done.

Paper and ink are cheap, but lets see the good doctor heat water. 
Every thing else is just rehash and speculation!

>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 08:58:36 2001
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Ultraviolet Lamp Neutron Generator?
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>The quartz glass germicidal UV lamps in standard fluorescent tube 
>configurations (4
>ft, 40 watt T12 or such) if surrounded by a Boron tube, spaced to 
>allow for an annular
>volume filled with D2 at atmospheric pressure might act as a source 
>of neutrons
>stripped from deuterons.

Is the tube filled with D2 something that you are theorizing about, 
or something that is on the shelf?
>
>The 185 and 254 nanometer photons (~6.7 eV and 4.95 eV respectively) 
>will dissociate
>the D2 to 2 D and possibly form a "Deuterino" which will dissociate 
>into a Neutron and a Proton. The liberated neutrons can be used to 
>fission Lithium 7 forming 2 He4 or Boron 10 forming He4 and Li7 
>concurrently releasing energy.
>
>I haven't the guts to try this.   :-)

speaking about experiements that we don't have the guts to try, how 
about putting the tube in the vacinity of some natural uranium?
>
>
>Regards,     Frederick


I don't blame you Fredrick, as I understand it there is no safe 
exposure to neutrons.

Some one responded to my posting on The Farnsworth Fusor mentioning 
that it only produces 10 X 6 neutrons per second. That makes me think 
about lead underwear! BTW what would happen if someone developed an 
improved version of the Fusor that produced the requisite 10 X 12 
neutrons per second?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 10:03:02 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Photon Energy  Storage in Water?
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 10:56:29 -0500
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Based on the results obtained by the Japanese researchers on Photoreduction of water
to H2 and O2 after the light source has been removed,  it seems probable that the
water molecules are storing photoenergy, then dumping it either in photolysis,
electrolysis, or agitation of the water.

A simple experiment would be placing a small light bulb in a Dewar and monitoring the
temperature to see if there is
a difference between the energy input and the temperature
rise, which should indicate isothermal creation of metastable states in the
molecule/molecules.

This might also help explain the anomalous source of energy in hurricanes/cyclones
(Wet Vortices)over water.

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 11:04:29 2001
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Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 13:16:28 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing
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Bruce Meland wrote:

>  Jed I amd not berating the cold fusion researchers accomplishments but 
> if one has a solid state device that converts cosmic energy  directly to 
> electricity, it is a slam dunk and won't take years and millions of 
> dollars for pilot plants.

That's correct, I am sure. No one disputes that if you had such a device 
the rest would follow. However, as far as I know, nobody has such a device, 
it is physically impossible to make one. You have not given us any reason 
to believe such a machine exists. So there is no point in speculating about 
what it might do, or what it would be good for. If I had a machine that 
could convert lead into gold, or a machine that could predict the outcome 
of the Georgia Lottery, I would be fabulously rich, but I do not, and I am 
not, so why speculate about it?


>The technology is just too  revolutionary   and risks  energy stock 
>portfolios of the high and mighty.

That's nonsense. Throughout history, countless revolutionary technologies 
have destroyed the stock portfolios of the high and mighty. The most recent 
example is the microcomputer, which nearly destroyed IBM, and which wiped 
out most mainframe and minicomputer companies. Starting in 1900, 
automobiles and later airplanes destroyed U.S. railroad passenger 
transport, even though the railroads were the most wealthy, politically 
powerful, influential, and most feared industry in the world. In 1900 
upstart entrepreneurs like Henry Ford had far less legal protection against 
heavy handed, unfair competition than Bill Gates had in 1980, but it did 
not stop him from destroying the biggest industry on earth.

If I had the technology you describe, I would soon be richer than Bill 
Gates, and nothing -- no corporation, government or Black Helicopters -- 
could stop me, except by killing me.


>  Just recently Judge Sandra OConor(sp?)
>could not rule on a  energy case because she owned stock in the company.

The name is Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. You can find that 
name with the correct spelling on the Internet in less than two seconds 
with a search program Google.com or www.alltheweb.com. Since you are the 
editor of Electrifying Times, I suggest you learn to use these search tools 
to pin down names and facts.


>Also perhaps these divices operate at such high frequencies only black
>budget technology can detect their operation and  hence exercise control

Black budget technology cannot prevent spies in the CIA and the FBI from 
selling out and betraying our agents and secret codes. Black budget 
agencies such the CIA are so inept they did not predict the fall of the 
Soviet Union, or make any arrangements for it. Their high-level million 
dollar analyses of Japanese politics, language and culture are a joke. 
These reports would be given a failing grade in undergraduate Asian Studies 
at any university in the world. They are as ridiculous as the portrayal of 
the Imperial Japanese Navy general staff in the movie "Pearl Harbor," which 
seems to be based on the wild fantasies of some 13-year-old kid, and which 
are played by people who cannot even speak Japanese. (For a reasonably 
accurate portrayal of the IJN, see the movie "Tora Tora Tora.")

The U.S. Federal agencies are so ignorant of basic science, they do not 
even understand that cold fusion is real. The high level government people 
I have spoken with are so ignorant, they would not recognize a 
revolutionary technology if it bit them on the butt. There is not the 
slightest chance they have machines that can "detect" the "frequencies" of 
energy producing machine, and furthermore that statement has no scientific 
or technical meaning. It is nonsense, fantasy and blather. Frankly, all of 
your messages seem to be concocted of such blather, so I think I will add 
you to my short list of people who are automatically deleted.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 11:23:27 2001
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Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:18:13 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud
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Fred Sparber wrote:

>I think you missed the mark, Mr. Jones.

***{Who, me? :-) --MJ}***

>The gravitational force of the Sun on a water molecule at 5.0 AU is ~
>7.1E-30 newtons.
>The force from a 2.5 eV photon on a water molecule is
>~1.3E-27 newtons. Since (~ 80%) of the ~ 54 watts/meter^2 from the Sun at
>is in the
>infrared (~ 0.1 eV to ~1.7eV) the photon pressure CAN create a "Bubble" of
>10 AU Diameter or less.

***{No.The "bubble" can only exist if three conditions are satisfied:

(1) Within the bubble, the outward force due to photon pressure must be
greater than the inward force due to gravity--which means: Fo > Fi.

(2) At the surface of the bubble, Fo = Fi.

(3) Outside the bubble, Fo < Fi.

Unfortunately, as previously noted, both Fo and Fi vary inversely as the
square of the radius. Result: they must, of necessity, have the same
relationship to one another at all radii. Therefore the bubble cannot exist.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>Go figure, and study up on the Heliopause.  :-)

***{The balance of forces that defines the leading edge of the so-called
"heliosphere" is not photon pressure vs. gravity, but photon pressure vs.
the resistance of the primordial gas cloud. The sun is positioned 8500
parsecs (pc) from the center of the galaxy near the inside edge of the
Orion spiral arm, about 8 pc north of the midplane, and is plowing through
the cold interstellar gas cloud at about 220 km/sec. The so called
"heliosphere" (which isn't spherical) is a hot ionized plasma that is
thrown off by the sun under the influence of photon pressure. The
"heliopause" is the bow shock region where the solar wind collides with the
cold interstellar gas cloud. (See, for example,
http://vraptor.jpl.nasa.gov/voyager/vgrhelio_pr.html.)

Bottom line: the fact that a "bubble"cannot be defined by the opposition of
photon pressure and gravity does not mean one cannot be defined by the
opposition of photon pressure and the resistance of the interstellar
medium.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Regards, Frederick
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

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----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: Ultraviolet Lamp Neutron Generator?

Thomas Malloy wrote:

>Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >The quartz glass germicidal UV lamps in standard fluorescent tube
> >configurations (4
> >ft, 40 watt T12 or such) if surrounded by a Boron tube, spaced to
> >allow for an annular
> >volume filled with D2 at atmospheric pressure might act as a source
> >of neutrons
> >stripped from deuterons.
>
> Is the tube filled with D2 something that you are theorizing about,
> or something that is on the shelf?
>
The fluorescent type germicidal lamps are not filled with D2. It would be used to fill
the annular volume around the
lamp body. The germicidal tubes use a UV transparent glass or quartz, and are an off
the shelf item from several fluorescent tube manufacturers at around $30.00 each.
The 4 foot 40 watt T-12 (1.5 inch O.D.) units will work with a standard single tube
ballast fixture.
> >
> >The 185 and 254 nanometer photons (~6.7 eV and 4.95 eV respectively)
> >will dissociate
> >the D2 to 2 D and possibly form a "Deuterino" which will dissociate
> >into a Neutron and a Proton. The liberated neutrons can be used to
> >fission Lithium 7 forming 2 He4 or Boron 10 forming He4 and Li7
> >concurrently releasing energy.
> >
> >I haven't the guts to try this.   :-)
>
> speaking about experiements that we don't have the guts to try, how
> about putting the tube in the vacinity of some natural uranium?

You want to use it as a Geiger Counter?   :-)
> >
> >
> >Regards,     Frederick
>
>
> I don't blame you Fredrick, as I understand it there is no safe
> exposure to neutrons.
>
> Some one responded to my posting on The Farnsworth Fusor mentioning
> that it only produces 10 X 6 neutrons per second. That makes me think
> about lead underwear!

Lead doesn't do that much good in stopping neutrons (even thermal ones). You would be
better off with Borax
soaked underwear.

>BTW what would happen if someone developed an
> improved version of the Fusor that produced the requisite 10 X 12
> neutrons per second?

That is the intent.  Use UV photons to create the Neutron Stripping of the Deuterons
with the plasma confined in the
fluorescent tube and the D2 (or D2O with dissolved Boron compounds in it) so that the
Proton End of the Deuteron forms a "hydrino" or such and the Neutron end becomes
unbound,i.e., a thermal neutron that can fission
the Boron 10 to He4 + Li7 + ~3.7 Mev.

Regards,   Frederick
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 11:41:52 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Lindermann's book
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 10:23:44 -0700
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But it takes skill to descipher the nitty gritty I have looked at it and it
has some key info for the serious inventor. some peoples skills are digging
out info yet revealed. He is one. Again you can waste years doing ones own
thing when maybe someone has already done it.
-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 8:59 AM
Subject: Lindermann's book


>>The book is not too much on his intrepretation  of key free energy systems
>>just some very basic and extensive information that Peter has spent many
>>years gathering about the Gray Motor Patents and experimentation and  also
>>some similar on Tesla's radiant energy devices. You can save a lot of time
>
>You can also waste a lot of money and time by reading books of people
>who have done nothing but rehash what other inventors claim to have
>done.
>
>Paper and ink are cheap, but lets see the good doctor heat water.
>Every thing else is just rehash and speculation!
>
>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 12:27:12 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: A parable for Bruce Meland
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 15:30:33 -0400
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Hi All.

Many moons ago, I had the experience of working with a Born
Again Christian. You know the type. Anyway, he kept trying
to convert the heathens in the office to the one true faith.
One day, the following exchange took place.

Bob: "Blah Blah accept Jesus blah blah going to hell etc etc"

Me: "Bob, do you mean to say that if I don't accept jesus I'm going to hell"

Bob : "Yes!"

Me: "OK. What about if I never heard of Jesus. Do I automatically go to
hell?"

Bob: "uhhh, I suppose so yes"

Me: "Hmm... What about babys, buddhists, etc."

Bob: "uhmmmmmmm yeah"

Me: "Damn Bob, that seems pretty cruel. Babies?"

Bob: long pause...furrowed brow "OK, what happens is they go to limbo and
get judged
	on individual merit"

Me: "So, basically, what you're trying to do is maximize the number of souls
	going to heaven, hence the prosteletizing?"

Bob: "Yup"

Me: "So if you succeed in convincing me, I go to heaven"

Bob: sensing victory "Yes!"

Me: "and if you fail, if your oratory skills are insufficient or your
	logic is unappealing, or I feel bad 'cause my girlfriend fought
	with me, and I don't accept this, I go to hell"

Bob: "Uhmm Yeah."

Me: "That's a lot of responsibility Bob. I may live a good life, but because
	of your inability to argue a point, to present any factual data
	to back up your claim, I'm damned to hell. Just for hearing you"

Bob: Blinks.

Me: "So it would seem, that the best way to maximize the number of good
	souls in heaven, is to keep this a great secret. Don't tell anyone.
	Then, we'll be judged on merit and not on your ability to argue,
	which frankly is greatly lacking.

Bob: Mouth opens.

Me: "Already you've damned half the department to an eternity of torment.
	Please stop."


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 14:34:11 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <knagel gis.net>, "Vortex" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: A parable for Bruce Meland
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Keith you are the one that is nieve and probably some low level technician
that is living in the past or with very regimented classic electrodynamics
perceptions. I just happen to get around and have been networking with real
inventors, not stuck in some little shop or garage cranking out printed
circuit boards or the  stuck in corner of some  establishment   corp. shop.
This technology has nothing to do with religion or a parable. Just some
wizzard inventors, one with  a PHD in EE and good at origional work and not
the regurgitaor type that ends up at some University. One of the wizzards
was key developer of fiber optics.   Keith you just have blinders on! Bruce
From: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:27 PM
Subject: A parable for Bruce Meland


>Hi All.
>
>Many moons ago, I had the experience of working with a Born
>Again Christian. You know the type. Anyway, he kept trying
>to convert the heathens in the office to the one true faith.
>One day, the following exchange took place.
>
>Bob: "Blah Blah accept Jesus blah blah going to hell etc etc"
>
>Me: "Bob, do you mean to say that if I don't accept jesus I'm going to
hell"
>
>Bob : "Yes!"
>
>Me: "OK. What about if I never heard of Jesus. Do I automatically go to
>hell?"
>
>Bob: "uhhh, I suppose so yes"
>
>Me: "Hmm... What about babys, buddhists, etc."
>
>Bob: "uhmmmmmmm yeah"
>
>Me: "Damn Bob, that seems pretty cruel. Babies?"
>
>Bob: long pause...furrowed brow "OK, what happens is they go to limbo and
>get judged
> on individual merit"
>
>Me: "So, basically, what you're trying to do is maximize the number of
souls
> going to heaven, hence the prosteletizing?"
>
>Bob: "Yup"
>
>Me: "So if you succeed in convincing me, I go to heaven"
>
>Bob: sensing victory "Yes!"
>
>Me: "and if you fail, if your oratory skills are insufficient or your
> logic is unappealing, or I feel bad 'cause my girlfriend fought
> with me, and I don't accept this, I go to hell"
>
>Bob: "Uhmm Yeah."
>
>Me: "That's a lot of responsibility Bob. I may live a good life, but
because
> of your inability to argue a point, to present any factual data
> to back up your claim, I'm damned to hell. Just for hearing you"
>
>Bob: Blinks.
>
>Me: "So it would seem, that the best way to maximize the number of good
> souls in heaven, is to keep this a great secret. Don't tell anyone.
> Then, we'll be judged on merit and not on your ability to argue,
> which frankly is greatly lacking.
>
>Bob: Mouth opens.
>
>Me: "Already you've damned half the department to an eternity of torment.
> Please stop."
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 14:36:24 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: "Jim Uban" <uban world.std.com>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: per vortex postings subjects
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Jim UFO's have a lot to do with advanced electrodynamics, overunity and anti
gravity. Sure sometimes you have to read between the lines a little.
Broaden your horizons a little please Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Uban <uban world.std.com>
To: etimes teleport.com <etimes@teleport.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 3:13 PM
Subject: per vortex postings subjects


>Hi Bruce,
> Vortex list is not really for discussing
>UFO's, etc.  It is supposed to be for serious
>researching of various scientific topics.  I know
>the list drifts, but please take UFO reports
>elsewhere! Tnx,  Jim
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 15:09:07 2001
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Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 15:05:59 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: AquaFuel - Unclear on the concept
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Vortexians,

Some months ago, following a glowing write-up in "Infinite Energy," many of 
the supporters of alternative fuels were excited about the apparently very quick 
commercialization of AquaFuel. The company touted it, now and then, as a 
"non-fossil" alternative to fossil fuels, even though its developers knew from the 
beginning that a large percentage of the caloric value of the fuel would be 
coming indirectly from coal - by some estimates far over 100 % when you 
consider that the electricity used is coming from coal-fired generators and the 
carbon electrodes are derived from coal and the process is far less efficient 
than first claimed. In fact burning a pound of this "non-fossil" alternative might 
indirectly require as much as five pounds of mined coal. AquaLux Corp. and 
some of its developers came into the field with credentials and reputations that 
were, if not above reproach, let us say... on a par with some of their alternative 
fuel predecessors, such as Yull Brown.

The last time I checked, coal was considered to be a fossil fuel but that 
oversight may be the least of this company's problems.

It has been now disclosed by Mike Brassfield in a copyrighted St. Petersburg 
Times story, published May 23, 2001 that a large explosion at the new 
company's site is causing serious concern among its Florida neighbors. No one 
was hurt, only because the incident occurred after hours, but the explosion 
rattled neighbors' nerves after a 100-pound cylinder containing AquaFuel 
exploded at the 5 acre site.

The company says a faulty storage tank, not its fuel, was to blame for the 
explosion. "It's a non-combustible fuel," a company spokesman said. "It's a 
great fuel. It's environmentally friendly." 

The company's Web site describes the mixture of hydrogen, oxygen, and 
numerous unknown mixed hydrocarbons as a clean, synthetic, non-combustible 
alternative to fossil fuels. These guys need a quick course in organic chemistry... 
or should I say, honesty. It meets none of these puffed up claims - plus it goes a 
little beyond "spin doctoring" to blame an explosion of volatile hydrocarbons, 
MIXED AND STORED WITH AN OXIDIZER, on a storage tank. Who do 
they think they are kidding? OSHA? the St. Petersburg Police? Investors?

I hope this isn't just one more in the long, sad list of free energy scams. But if 
you ask the neighbors, it is certainly beginning to look that way.

Regards,

Jones Beene






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 15:40:31 2001
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From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <c3.11912951.284e9bcd aol.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion Reactor
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Chris,

> Fusion and Richard Hull. Even though I have never met Richard, I respect
him
> and his relentless pursuit of Farnsworth's gifts to us all. Without Dr.
Hull
> - Farnsworth might not even be a memory.

I have met Richard Hull (it isn't Dr. Hull, BTW) and he is a real wizard of
Tesla tech--I visited him because I wanted to see his magnifying coil in
action--now that was sort of like how Moses must have felt before the
burning bush.  At any rate, Hull is the consummate Teslaniac.  However, he
would not have been pursuing the Farnsworth tech (at least, not as soon as
he started) if he hadn't been lucky enough to meet my friend Tom Ligon, who
showed him his own homebuilt device.  Richard "ran with it" faster than
anything after that.

kooistra

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Subject: Re: AquaFuel - Unclear on the concept
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 5:05 PM
Subject: AquaFuel - Unclear on the concept

Hi Jones.

A very perceptive treatment of using biomass carbon plus
fossil fuel carbon, to inefficiently create a fuel gas that can be obtained (pipeline
ready)using biomass gasifiers at higher efficiency, higher throughput rate, and at a
fraction of the equipment cost.

Regards,   Frederick


> Vortexians,
>
> Some months ago, following a glowing write-up in "Infinite Energy," many of
> the supporters of alternative fuels were excited about the apparently very quick
> commercialization of AquaFuel. The company touted it, now and then, as a
> "non-fossil" alternative to fossil fuels, even though its developers knew from the
> beginning that a large percentage of the caloric value of the fuel would be
> coming indirectly from coal - by some estimates far over 100 % when you
> consider that the electricity used is coming from coal-fired generators and the
> carbon electrodes are derived from coal and the process is far less efficient
> than first claimed. In fact burning a pound of this "non-fossil" alternative might
> indirectly require as much as five pounds of mined coal. AquaLux Corp. and
> some of its developers came into the field with credentials and reputations that
> were, if not above reproach, let us say... on a par with some of their alternative
> fuel predecessors, such as Yull Brown.
>
> The last time I checked, coal was considered to be a fossil fuel but that
> oversight may be the least of this company's problems.
>
> It has been now disclosed by Mike Brassfield in a copyrighted St. Petersburg
> Times story, published May 23, 2001 that a large explosion at the new
> company's site is causing serious concern among its Florida neighbors. No one
> was hurt, only because the incident occurred after hours, but the explosion
> rattled neighbors' nerves after a 100-pound cylinder containing AquaFuel
> exploded at the 5 acre site.
>
> The company says a faulty storage tank, not its fuel, was to blame for the
> explosion. "It's a non-combustible fuel," a company spokesman said. "It's a
> great fuel. It's environmentally friendly."
>
> The company's Web site describes the mixture of hydrogen, oxygen, and
> numerous unknown mixed hydrocarbons as a clean, synthetic, non-combustible
> alternative to fossil fuels. These guys need a quick course in organic chemistry...
> or should I say, honesty. It meets none of these puffed up claims - plus it goes a
> little beyond "spin doctoring" to blame an explosion of volatile hydrocarbons,
> MIXED AND STORED WITH AN OXIDIZER, on a storage tank. Who do
> they think they are kidding? OSHA? the St. Petersburg Police? Investors?
>
> I hope this isn't just one more in the long, sad list of free energy scams. But if
> you ask the neighbors, it is certainly beginning to look that way.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jones Beene
>
>
>
>
>
>

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Sorry Jones, I forgot the thread title.  :-(

 http://www.arbre.co.uk/continue.htm

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Subject: Re: Aquafuel sometrhing
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Lets see Aquafuel get the electrical power capacity to run 200 tons of biomass/day
through their "Arc Gasifier". :-)

http://nepa.eh.doe.gov/ea/ea1078/ea_1078.html

Regards,  Frederick




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 21:28:21 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: AquaFuel - Unclear on the concept
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 14:23:53 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 06 Jun 2001 15:05:59 -0700:
[snip]
>The company says a faulty storage tank, not its fuel, was to blame for the 
>explosion. "It's a non-combustible fuel," a company spokesman said. "It's a 
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This would seem to be a contradiction in terms.
[snip]
BTW Jones, you also appear to have filled in your "reply to" field.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 22:01:30 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
Cc: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: A parable for Bruce Meland
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 01:05:54 -0400
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Well Bruce, are you ready to provide us with some factual information
about the increasing bizarre claims you've been making on vortex?
Or more black helicopters, disappearing prototypes, mystery inventors...

Jed pointed out the reality of suppression, but I'd like to add one
more point. Disinformation can be spread about a subject to the point
where it becomes impossible for any intelligent dialog to occur.
I used to think such actions were orchestrated, but now feel
it's an organic process. Perhaps an expression of Freud's Thanatos?

Instead of making a lot of specious assumptions about me and the
rest of the list members, how about some real information or
discussion? 

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Meland [mailto:etimes teleport.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 4:16 PM
To: knagel gis.net; Vortex
Subject: Re: A parable for Bruce Meland


Keith you are the one that is nieve and probably some low level technician
that is living in the past or with very regimented classic electrodynamics
perceptions. I just happen to get around and have been networking with real
inventors, not stuck in some little shop or garage cranking out printed
circuit boards or the  stuck in corner of some  establishment   corp. shop.
This technology has nothing to do with religion or a parable. Just some
wizzard inventors, one with  a PHD in EE and good at origional work and not
the regurgitaor type that ends up at some University. One of the wizzards
was key developer of fiber optics.   Keith you just have blinders on! Bruce
From: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:27 PM
Subject: A parable for Bruce Meland


>Hi All.
>
>Many moons ago, I had the experience of working with a Born
>Again Christian. You know the type. Anyway, he kept trying
>to convert the heathens in the office to the one true faith.
>One day, the following exchange took place.
>
>Bob: "Blah Blah accept Jesus blah blah going to hell etc etc"
>
>Me: "Bob, do you mean to say that if I don't accept jesus I'm going to
hell"
>
>Bob : "Yes!"
>
>Me: "OK. What about if I never heard of Jesus. Do I automatically go to
>hell?"
>
>Bob: "uhhh, I suppose so yes"
>
>Me: "Hmm... What about babys, buddhists, etc."
>
>Bob: "uhmmmmmmm yeah"
>
>Me: "Damn Bob, that seems pretty cruel. Babies?"
>
>Bob: long pause...furrowed brow "OK, what happens is they go to limbo and
>get judged
> on individual merit"
>
>Me: "So, basically, what you're trying to do is maximize the number of
souls
> going to heaven, hence the prosteletizing?"
>
>Bob: "Yup"
>
>Me: "So if you succeed in convincing me, I go to heaven"
>
>Bob: sensing victory "Yes!"
>
>Me: "and if you fail, if your oratory skills are insufficient or your
> logic is unappealing, or I feel bad 'cause my girlfriend fought
> with me, and I don't accept this, I go to hell"
>
>Bob: "Uhmm Yeah."
>
>Me: "That's a lot of responsibility Bob. I may live a good life, but
because
> of your inability to argue a point, to present any factual data
> to back up your claim, I'm damned to hell. Just for hearing you"
>
>Bob: Blinks.
>
>Me: "So it would seem, that the best way to maximize the number of good
> souls in heaven, is to keep this a great secret. Don't tell anyone.
> Then, we'll be judged on merit and not on your ability to argue,
> which frankly is greatly lacking.
>
>Bob: Mouth opens.
>
>Me: "Already you've damned half the department to an eternity of torment.
> Please stop."
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 22:19:58 2001
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Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 22:20:54 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re[2]: A parable for Bruce Meland
In-reply-to: <003101c0eec5$8786cba0$c4181ad8 oemcomputer>
To: Bruce Meland <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Reply-to: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
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On Wednesday, June 06, 2001 you wrote

BM>  Keith you are the one that is nieve and probably some low level
BM> technician that is living in the past

I gather this is supposed to be an insult to Keith. Have you tried
looking up "nieve" in the dictionary? Illiterate insults just don't
cut it.

BM> or with very regimented classic electrodynamics perceptions.

You certainly wouldn't want to have anything to do with "classical"
electrodynamics. Go with the new age stuff.

BM> I just happen to get around and have been networking with real
BM> inventors, not stuck in some little shop or garage cranking out
BM> printed circuit boards or the stuck in corner of some
BM> establishment   corp. shop.

Oh, yes! REAL inventors. Unlike those in the ESTABLISHMENT shops, who
of course wouldn't know what they are doing.

BM> This technology has nothing to do with religion or a parable.

I suppose you are correct. It's more like Science Fiction (apologies
to any Science Fiction fans who might be offended by that opinion).

BM> Just some wizzard inventors, one with  a PHD in EE and good at
BM> origional work and not the regurgitaor type that ends up at some
BM> University.

Naturally, nobody at a university would be good at original work. They
can't think for themselves. Where did your miracle inventor get his
Ph.D.? And I can't find "wizzard", "origional", or "regurgitaor" in my
dictionary either.


BM> One of the wizzards was key developer of fiber optics.   Keith you
BM> just have blinders on!

Better to have blinders on than to have your head up your ass.

--Lynn


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 23:12:56 2001
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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:09:38 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Subject: (physics/0106020) One of Possible Applications of High-Tc 
 Superconductors
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0106020

From: Nikulov Alexey <nikulov ipmt-hpm.ac.ru>
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 08:29:28 GMT   (9kb)

One of Possible Applications of High-Tc Superconductors

     Possible application of a result contradicting to the second law of
     thermodynamics is announced. According to this result the chaotic energy of
     thermal fluctuation can be transformed in electric energy of direct current in an
     inhomogeneous superconducting ring. Although the power of this transformation is
     very weak this effect has optimistic perspective of wide application because
     useful energy can be obtained from heat energy in the equilibrium state. It is
     explain why the second law can be broken in some quantum systems. In the last
     years some authors have concluded almost at once on violation of the second law
     in different quantum systems: A.E.Allahverdyan and Th.M.Nieuwenhuizen, PRL 85,
     1799 (2000); cond-mat/0011389; V.Capec and J.Bok Czech. J. of Phys. 49, 1645
     (1999); cond-mat/0012056; Physica A 290, 379 (2001); D. Sheehan, Phys.
     Plasmas 2 (6), 1893 (1995); Phys. Rev.E 61, 4662 (2000); P. Weiss, Science
     News, 158, 234 (2000). 

Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  6 23:42:47 2001
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Jed's caustic ascessments
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>Their high-level million dollar analyses of Japanese politics, 
>language and culture are a joke. These reports would be given a 
>failing grade in undergraduate Asian Studies at any university in 
>the world.

what a caustic acessment of the intelligence community!

>They are as ridiculous as the portrayal of the Imperial Japanese 
>Navy general staff in the movie "Pearl Harbor," which seems to be 
>based on the wild fantasies of some 13-year-old kid, and which are 
>played by people who cannot even speak Japanese.

What else would one expect from the Queermouseco (Disney)?

>  (For a reasonably accurate portrayal of the IJN, see the movie 
>"Tora Tora Tora.")
>
>The U.S. Federal agencies are so ignorant of basic science, they do 
>not even understand that cold fusion is real.

The BEPRP paper seems to indicate that they have caught on to C F being real

>The high level government people I have spoken with are so ignorant, 
>they would not recognize a revolutionary technology if it bit them 
>on the butt.

OH that's caustic!

>There is not the slightest chance they have machines that can 
>"detect" the "frequencies" of energy producing machine, and 
>furthermore that statement has no scientific or technical meaning. 
>It is nonsense, fantasy and blather.

An even more caustic ascessment of Meland!

>Frankly, all of your messages seem to be concocted of such blather, 
>so I think I will add you to my short list of people who are 
>automatically deleted.

Blather, that's a word that's not in my dictionary, does it mean 
something like BS?

>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  7 00:35:34 2001
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Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:15:46 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Jed's caustic ascessments
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Thomas -

  > Blather, that's a word that's not in my dictionary,
  > does it mean something like BS?

Right, and neither is "gullible". I know, I looked. ;)

Ok, can we all put down our spelling police badges for a while?

- Rick Monnavertie
Honoruru, HI

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ROFL!

I just love Vortex during a Full Moon!  :-)

Regards,   Frederick


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If you use the 1.5 to 2.0 "surplus" neutrons of each fission reaction in new fuel rods
to clean up the rad wastes in the spent fuel rods....:-)

 http://www.ccnr.org/fission_ana.html

Regards,  Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  7 07:23:57 2001
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thomas malloy wrote:

>>Their high-level million dollar analyses of Japanese politics, language 
>>and culture are a joke. These reports would be given a failing grade in 
>>undergraduate Asian Studies at any university in the world.
>
>what a caustic acessment of the intelligence community!

It is based on a notorious CIA sponsored report published in 1991, titled 
"Japan 2000." This was paid for by the CIA but written by someone at the 
Rochester Institute of Technology. It claimed, among other things, that the 
Sino-Japanese war was in 1905 and Hitler rose to power in 1939. Other CIA, 
NSA and Army documents are more accurate. But the overall standard is low. 
An old joke has it you can learn more from the New York Times than the CIA. 
Unfortunately, that is true, despite the $35 billion the government spends 
on intelligence.


>>The U.S. Federal agencies are so ignorant of basic science, they do not 
>>even understand that cold fusion is real.
>
>The BEPRP paper seems to indicate that they have caught on to C F being real

Naturally some people, in some parts of the government, are aware that CF 
is real.


>>The high level government people I have spoken with are so ignorant, they 
>>would not recognize a revolutionary technology if it bit them on the butt.
>
>OH that's caustic!

But true, alas. When I catch myself on the phone trying to explain to some 
guy in the energy department the difference between chemical and nuclear 
energy, I realize this is a lost cause. Profound ignorance goes right to 
the top. Secretary of Energy Abraham thinks the Internet consumes "8 - 13%" 
of electricity. Many high level decision makers at major corporations are 
just as clueless. After all, they are not investing in CF either. The 
problem isn't government or industry, capitalism or socialism -- it is 
human nature.

Read newspapers, books or eyewitness accounts from any era in history and 
you will find incompetent people in high places making terrible mistakes. 
The best and brightest brought us the War in Vietnam, the Three Mile Island 
meltdown, tulipmania, dot-com mania, polywater and countless other 
embarrassing lessons mankind hastens to forget.


>Blather, that's a word that's not in my dictionary, does it mean something 
>like BS?

American Heritage:

blath·er (blàth¹er) also bleth·er (blèth¹-)  verb, intransitive
blath·ered, blath·er·ing, blath·ers
To talk nonsensically.

noun
Nonsensical talk.

  [Old Norse bladhra.]

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  7 08:00:06 2001
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Subject: Re: AquaFuel - Unclear on the concept
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 16:10:25 +0100
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Robin - We investigated this concept and while it had some good envior.
benefits when we did the costings and they worked out at 20 times the cost
of Diesel we put it away rapidly, its a Carbon Arc under water system.and is
quite definately a "Combustable fuel" :-) as our Alsatian Dog can confirm as
we set off a 2 ltr Pepsi bottle of it with Jettex fuse :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 5:23 AM
Subject: Re: AquaFuel - Unclear on the concept


> In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 06 Jun 2001 15:05:59 -0700:
> [snip]
> >The company says a faulty storage tank, not its fuel, was to blame for
the
> >explosion. "It's a non-combustible fuel," a company spokesman said. "It's
a
>                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> This would seem to be a contradiction in terms.
> [snip]
> BTW Jones, you also appear to have filled in your "reply to" field.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> New model hydrogen atom see
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  7 09:58:52 2001
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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:53:34 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Fusion Reactor
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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 Jeff Kooistra <dskjdk myexcel.com> wrote:

>....my friend Tom Ligon, who showed him his own homebuilt device.  Richard 
>"ran with it" faster than anything after that.

Tom Ligon's machine graced the cover of IE last year (issue 30) and his article 
was one of the most interesting to appear there in some time. At the end he 
mentioned Dr. Bussard and the p-B11 IEC concept as being the key to a 
fusion future.

I hope that Richard Hull (or maybe Chris Arnold or any fusorite) will try that 
fueling scheme sometime. Just to get a taste for and report the parameters, if 
nothing else. Despite his extreme competence with this technology niche, 
Richard does seems surprisingly reluctant (at least in his comments on the Fusor 
forum) to actually taking that "last step" into the unknown that will push the 
technology out of the Farnsworth era. Or if he does tinker privately, he doesn't 
talk about it publicly.

If D+D fusion is truly a "dead-end street" for actual power production, as Miley 
believes (and it goes without saying that our government will never allow easy 
access to tritium) then  p-B11 is really the only remaining option to get the 
Fusor out of the Lab.

Yes, the cross section for p-B11 seems out of reach at this particular moment 
in time, BUT remember, before Philo came on the scene, every physicist out 
there was pooh-poohing the idea that deuterium fusion would occur at anything 
less than the megavolt level, much less 10 kilovolts.  Lo and behold, Philo tries 
it and and then the embarrassed "experts" grunt and look the other way, 
admitting no wrong, " well, it's only Boltzman's tail" (and we have to protect our 
billion $ boondoggles).

One reason that p-B11 might very well succeed eventually, is that IF room 
temperature superconductivity (RTSC) does ever hit the mainstream then the 
whole ball game changes. In my opinion RTSC will be that one great "enabling 
technology," not only for p-B11 but for LENR but many other things as well. 
RTSC may have the same catalytic effect, historically, as the integrated circuit 
has had in its field, i.e. it spawned a multitude of unforeseeable advances, each 
building on the others.

How such a new technological revolution might transpire is not at all self-
evident.

So consider this - there is a glimmer of hope (some would say the strong 
possibility) that the boron reaction will become self-heating when 
magnetically contained. And yes, you can take that one step further and 
postulate that eventually p-B11 will "chain react" in the limited sense that all you 
need to do to keep the reaction going, once ignited, is to keep adding fuel. This 
is made possible because, unlike DD or DT, you don't loose the better part of 
your energy gain to neutrons which can't be contained in the plasma. Therefore 
the fusion "ash (alpha particles)" of p-B11, when magnetically bottled, will 
return enough of their energy gain back into the plasma so that voila, you've got 
fusion that doesn't extinguish and doesn't require continuous massive energy 
input, even though it may be a real chore to startup. 

Of course, the cynic might say, warm superconductivity is here now, so prove 
it. Or why didn't they try it in a Tokamak. Well, despite what you hear in the 
media, no reliable superconducting technology is affordable by anyone less than 
a national laboratory (or maybe Bill Gates) and containment will require 
magnets of 5 T or so. But basically, the overriding problem is that the big fusion 
projects have sucked the funding well dry for this kind of effort, as Bussard 
was complaining about for years. And the tokamak is NOT a convergence 
device, so it can't benefit from the "energy multiplication" advantages of 
convergence devices like the IEC. Nor does anyone know for sure if IEC can 
really be combined with magnetics. Nor do tokamaks have enough startup 
power to ignite p-B11. 

It is ironic that in p-B11 there is a disadvantage to "going big." For the first time 
in nuclear technology, smaller may actually be better (up to a point). For 
instance, you don't really care that your startup igniter (which could be a RTSC 
free electron laser) needs to be a million times too large and inefficient for 
continuous use, because - duh - you don't use it continuously. It is amazing to 
me how few "big fusion" guys really get the point - "bigger is better" must be so 
ingrained into their psyche that they just can't shed the notion that p-B11 is not 
just an advanced fuel but a true paradgm shift on every level.

BTW, does anyone have an update on any of the p-B11 IEC reactor schemes 
out there?  One could venture that this is the technology which has Miley's 
attention right now. Since his financial success with the D+D Fusor and the very 
shaky nature of those patents, set against the prior work of Dr Bussard, maybe 
he may has decided to go "underground" with his research.

Unfortunately, however, I think any of the current efforts underway with p-B11 
will have to await the advent of RTSC, or something very close (magnesium di-
boride is probably not quite enough), in order to reach fruition. I just hope 
someone hangs in there.

Regards,

Jones Beene



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  7 12:17:02 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: CA energy crisis subsides
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Consumption of electricity in California is 11% lower than it was in May, 
2000. The state is backing off from negotiations for long term power 
contracts. I predict that in a year or two there will be a major glut in 
electricity.

See:


URL: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/06/07/MN177308.DTL

Power switch -- contracts now in limbo
Nosedive in electricity prices will let state deal from strength
David Lazarus, Chronicle Staff Writer
Thursday, June 7, 2001
©2001 San Francisco Chronicle

LEAD IN:

Emboldened by an unexpected plunge in electricity prices, state officials 
said yesterday that they are prepared to press their advantage and walk 
away from nearly two dozen long-term power contracts that now are at 
above-market rates.

This represents a complete reversal from the state's position of just a few 
weeks ago, when officials were at the mercy of power companies and were all 
but begging for any available megawatts. . . .

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  7 14:09:03 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <7a.1607b4c5.28514685 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:05:09 EDT
Subject: Tritium  banned and Deuterium regulated
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Jones wrote,
<If D+D fusion is truly a "dead-end street" for actual power production, as 
Miley 
believes (and it goes without saying that our government will never allow 
easy 
access to tritium) then p-B11 is really the only remaining option to get the 
Fusor out of the Lab.>

The Government has already stopped the flow of tritium into the USA and 
Canada and just try to get deuterium from a supply house without 
certification that you are school or qualified lab. They will sell it to 
private citizens.

Best Regards,
Chris

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  7 15:56:52 2001
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Subject: Re: Tritium  banned and Deuterium regulated
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----- Original Message -----
From: <Hypercom59 aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 4:05 PM
Subject: Tritium banned and Deuterium regulated

Chris: Hypercom wrote:


> Jones wrote,
> <If D+D fusion is truly a "dead-end street" for actual power production, as
> Miley
> believes (and it goes without saying that our government will never allow
> easy
> access to tritium) then p-B11 is really the only remaining option to get the
> Fusor out of the Lab.>

p-Li7 ---> 2 He4 + 17.6 Mev should be easier except for handling. You can get LiH from
Li and H2. Not much if any Li6 around since it is used to make Tritium:

neutron + Li6 ---> Tritium + He4 + energy

Cockcroft and Walton bombarded Boron with protons and got reactions in 1926. But not
enough yield to be interesting from a fusion standpoint.
>
> The Government has already stopped the flow of tritium into the USA and
> Canada and just try to get deuterium from a supply house without
> certification that you are school or qualified lab. They will sell it to
> private citizens.

Do you mean will Not sell it to private citizens?

Probably the same for D2O? Of course D2O can be electrolyzed to 2 D2 + O2.

Regards,  Frederick
>
> Best Regards,
> Chris
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  7 16:03:36 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <b6.1699a0ae.285161c6 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:01:26 EDT
Subject: Tritium banned and Deuterium regulated
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Chris said
<They will sell it to private citizens.>

Correction, I meant to say,
"They will NOT sell it to private citizens" but someone is selling it on 
"Ebay" - at least for now.

Best Regards,
Chris

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  7 16:34:19 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Tritium  banned and Deuterium regulated
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:35:32 -0400
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Hi Fred and Chris.

I remember buying D2O a few years ago, no problem. But
I had an account with Aldrich at the time, basically most
chem houses won't sell ANYTHING to an individual, too
many liability issues. Gone are the days of the Gilbert
Chemistry Set....(frown).

Also, I was AMAZED that I could buy all kinds of dangerous
explosive material with no problem, but some VERY INNOCUOUS
chemicals were prohibited by our old friends, the DEA.
I was doing electrochemical experiments, and needed
some anhydrous acetone. "NO SIR", sez Aldrich. I say,
"Hell man, I can go down to the hardware store and
buy this stuff, what are you talking about? How about
you just sell me some of these drying beads?" Aldrich
sez, "YES SIR". (sound of forehead being slapped).

Seems like Uncle Sam is a lot
more interested in keeping it's citizens from getting
high than from blowing up big buildings. Anyone care
to speculate on the reasons for this (smile)?

I mention this because I noticed Fred referred to
LiH, which I believe is a DEA watched chemical.
Just having such stuff around is a crime, so watch
it kids. Lest you court a visit from the real
black helicopter/faceless goon squad. No Joke.

By the way, I'm sure you've seen this article, but
it's just so vortexian that I can't resist posting
a link to it. Check it.

http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 5:53 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tritium banned and Deuterium regulated



----- Original Message -----
From: <Hypercom59 aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 4:05 PM
Subject: Tritium banned and Deuterium regulated

Chris: Hypercom wrote:


> Jones wrote,
> <If D+D fusion is truly a "dead-end street" for actual power production,
as
> Miley
> believes (and it goes without saying that our government will never allow
> easy
> access to tritium) then p-B11 is really the only remaining option to get
the
> Fusor out of the Lab.>

p-Li7 ---> 2 He4 + 17.6 Mev should be easier except for handling. You can
get LiH from
Li and H2. Not much if any Li6 around since it is used to make Tritium:

neutron + Li6 ---> Tritium + He4 + energy

Cockcroft and Walton bombarded Boron with protons and got reactions in 1926.
But not
enough yield to be interesting from a fusion standpoint.
>
> The Government has already stopped the flow of tritium into the USA and
> Canada and just try to get deuterium from a supply house without
> certification that you are school or qualified lab. They will sell it to
> private citizens.

Do you mean will Not sell it to private citizens?

Probably the same for D2O? Of course D2O can be electrolyzed to 2 D2 + O2.

Regards,  Frederick
>
> Best Regards,
> Chris
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  7 18:45:21 2001
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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 20:45:44 -0500
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From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Re: A parable for Bruce Meland
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>Many moons ago, I had the experience of working with a Born
>Again Christian. You know the type. Anyway, he kept trying
>to convert the heathens in the office to the one true faith.
>One day, the following exchange took place.

I do not plan to disclose my religious preference, if any. I doubt I share 
it with many in this world anyways. However, being a person who has seen 
his fair share of racial, religious, etc. type bashing, and who has been 
guilty of such in the past (it was stupid of me, luckily I am more mature 
than that now), I do take offense at this. And since you can post your 
rather caustic viewpoint, I can post mine. Ok?

"You know the type". No, I don't. I know many Christians. Some are very 
kind and understanding to others, and are the finest people I could know. 
Some are quick to condemn and bash anyone who does not follow their 
particular world view, even if it has nothing to do with their particular 
faith (choices in music, etc.). So, simply profiling based on religious 
preference is a bit stupid. The exchange you posted is an interesting work 
in human behavior, but in no way should be construed as a reference to what 
all Christians are like. Maybe you are an atheist, agnostic, buddhist, or 
something else. I don't know. And frankly it is none of my business 
anyways, because you are free to practice whatever religious preference (or 
lack thereof). However, if you can condemn people of some religious 
affiliation, then you are both profiling and acting in such a way to 
alienate those who are of that preference. What if there is a great nuclear 
physicist who happens to be a Christian or Hindu or Jew? I am betting if he 
gave you the privilege to talk to him, you'd watch your words more carefully.

Not a flame.
--Kyle

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  7 19:56:00 2001
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The man flat missing...   Could someone in the Seattle aria check into 
this.  It is becoming a matter of concern.

At 08:59 AM 6/7/01 -0800, you wrote:
>Eskimo probably charges his credit card automatically, so even
>if Bill got sucked into another dimension during an experiment
>this list could go on for quite some time.....
>
> >Heh - this list needs paying for ($3) on a monthly basis or eskimo.com 
> will terminate it. Where is he?
> >
> >
> >Get 250 color business cards for FREE!
> >http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  8 04:01:27 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud & Spacecraft Drag
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 04:41:45 -0500
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Well Mitchell, I guess we can surmise that orbital decay of spacecraft is caused
either by ether drag, or a less than perfect vacuum in low earth orbit.

At 10^-15 Torr there are still ~ 27 Billion atoms/molecules (or space dust particles)
per cubic meter.

If they are predominantly water molecules then the mass per AU with 27 Billion H2O
Molecules/meter^3 is:

18*1.66 x 10^-27*27 x 10^9*1.5 x 10^11 = 1.2 x 10^-4  kg/meter^2.

A spacecraft clicking along at ~12,000 meters/second and colliding with those
molecules/particles (moving around at less than ~100 meters/second in cold space) is
bound to slow down some, whether it ices up or not.  No?

Regards,   Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  8 07:07:38 2001
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Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:06:21 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Tritium  banned and Deuterium regulated
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Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:


>The Government has already stopped the flow of tritium into the USA and
>Canada and just try to get deuterium from a supply house without
>certification that you are school or qualified lab. They will sell it to
>private citizens.

I presume this means "not sell." That's incorrect. We have had no trouble 
buying D2 gas and D2O.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  8 08:10:45 2001
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Depressing comments in Chemistry magazine
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Melvin Miles faxed me an article from the anniversary issue of Chemistry, 
by Lynn Teo Simarski. It includes many false claims about cold fusion, such 
as: "Plenty of bizarre discoveries have evoked incredulous T. and even 
laughter. Revelations of spectacular claims like cold fusion and polywater 
eventually discredited, lineup beside such discoveries as buckballs and 
superconductivity, which looked incredible to some scientists at first but 
later turned out to be true." . . . "Does the exposure of baseless claims 
like cold fusion and polywater reveal underlying flaws in the scientific 
process?"

Miles wrote to the editor twice but he received no response. Attached is 
his first letter. Perhaps it would help of other scientists contacted the 
editor, although I doubt it.

- Jed


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



Letters To The Editor (chemistry ACS.org)

Your recent anniversary issue (pages 42-49) contained an article by Lynn 
Teo Simarski titled "Eureka or Oops?" that requires a few comments. The 
cold fusion claims in 1989 were obviously overstated for an effect that 
proved to be difficult to reproduce. However, the main weapon used against 
cold fusion has been ridicule - and this is not part of the scientific 
method. My work has shown a reproducible excess heat effect for a 
palladium-boron material prepared by Dr. M.A. Imam of the Naval Research 
Laboratory (NRL), Washington D.C. This is documented in a recent report, 
"Calorimetric Analysis of a Heavy Water Experiment Using a Pd-B Alloy 
Cathode" authored by Drs. M. Fleischmann, M.A. Imam and myself 
(NRL/MR/6320-01-8526, March 26, 2001).

My challenge for all critics of cold fusion is to use the scientific method 
and either accept the results of this report or clearly identify the 
scientific errors that invalidate this claim of an anomalous excess 
enthalpy effect. The actual raw experimental data is available in this 
detailed report (155 pages).

For those scientists who desire a more accurate version of the cold fusion 
story, I recommend "Excess Heat: Why Cold Fusion Research Prevailed", Oak 
Grove Press, 2000 by Charles G. Beaudette.

Dr. Melvin H. Miles
Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division
Code 4T4220D
China Lake, CA 93555

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  8 08:20:05 2001
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Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:14:17 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud & Spacecraft Drag
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>Well Mitchell, I guess we can surmise that orbital decay of spacecraft is
>caused
>either by ether drag, or a less than perfect vacuum in low earth orbit.

***{I believe that the aether is entrained within the region where Earth's
gravity is dominant and rotates with Earth--with slippage and interchange
at the outer edges, of course. I see Earth as permeable to the aether, and,
as a result, the rotation of Earth creates the effect of a centrifugal
pump: aether is sucked in near the poles and hurled outward near the
equator, after which it circulates either up or down, enters through the
poles again, and so on. If this flow pattern were strong enough, it would
produce an observable differential rotation pattern in Earth's atmosphere,
such that the atmosphere would rotate more slowly at higher altitudes, and
more slowly nearer to the poles. However, Earth is a small planet, close to
the sun, and its atmosphere is thinner than that of the sun, Jupiter, and
Saturn, where differential rotation has actually been observed, and so I do
not know whether differential rotation is detectible here. (Variations in
solar heating dominate the atmospheric circulation on Uranus, due to the
extreme tilt of its axis--which is presently pointing almost directly at
the sun. Thus the hottest spot is at the north pole, the coldest is at the
south pole, and atmospheric flow at high altitudes is from north to south.
Result: the Coriolis force obscures the tendency towards differential
rotation. As for Neptune, very little information is available about
circulation within its atmosphere.) Regarding aether drag on a spacecraft,
since the pool of entrained aether rotates with Earth, a satellite in a
prograde orbit would be very unlikely to experience measurable drag from
that source. Thus, for practical purposes, orbital decay in near-Earth
orbit is caused by the less-than-perfect vacuum which exists within the
region where Earth's gravity is dominant. (Note: Earth's magnetic field
acts as a shield against the solar wind.) --MJ}***

>At 10^-15 Torr there are still ~ 27 Billion atoms/molecules (or space dust
>particles)
>per cubic meter.

***{Earth's atmosphere extends throughout the region where its
gravitational field is dominant. I have a book around here somewhere that
gives a formula for calculating atmospheric density as a function of
altitude--*Dynamic Meteorology* by Holton, if memory serves. Unfortunately,
it's buried in the pile, and I can't put my hands on it at the moment. (My
motto: "Have a place for everything, and everything in that place. :-)
--MJ}***

>If they are predominantly water molecules then the mass per AU with 27
>Billion H2O
>Molecules/meter^3 is:
>
>18*1.66 x 10^-27*27 x 10^9*1.5 x 10^11 = 1.2 x 10^-4  kg/meter^2.
>
>A spacecraft clicking along at ~12,000 meters/second and colliding with those
>molecules/particles (moving around at less than ~100 meters/second in cold
>space) is
>bound to slow down some, whether it ices up or not.  No?

***{Agreed. But not enough to account for the Pioneer anomaly, since the
guys at JPL tried to take that into account. --MJ}***

>Regards,   Frederick
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  8 08:54:48 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <be.15aee7c8.28524f0e aol.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 11:53:50 EDT
Subject: Tritium banned and Deuterium regulated
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Jed,
In my second post I attempted to correct the "Omission" of "NOT," but I was 
not successful -- sorry for all the aggravation that has caused. 

The NRC has banned the import of tritium into the USA, period. You can't get 
it through normal channels. As for deuterium, all the chem. houses I called 
would not sell it to me, either as D2 or D2O, except for one place that 
needed all my information for NRC approval or some such approval nonsense. 

Jed, please provide the house that supplies you - either on the list or 
private - so I can get stock up too. If you have a few little vials of 
tritium I would be interested in that too.

Best Regards,
Chris

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  8 11:33:15 2001
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0F016.68D35140
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I want one of these.

 http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Hyper-X.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  8 11:48:07 2001
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Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:51:00 -0600
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References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010608110516.02928378 pop.mindspring.com>
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Jed, I also saw this article and sent an e-mail message to the editor.  I
received no reply. It is amazing how ignorance just keeps multiplying.
Imagine how many other "facts" we are caused to believe because we have no way
of checking them.

Ed

Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Melvin Miles faxed me an article from the anniversary issue of Chemistry,
> by Lynn Teo Simarski. It includes many false claims about cold fusion, such
> as: "Plenty of bizarre discoveries have evoked incredulous T. and even
> laughter. Revelations of spectacular claims like cold fusion and polywater
> eventually discredited, lineup beside such discoveries as buckballs and
> superconductivity, which looked incredible to some scientists at first but
> later turned out to be true." . . . "Does the exposure of baseless claims
> like cold fusion and polywater reveal underlying flaws in the scientific
> process?"
>
> Miles wrote to the editor twice but he received no response. Attached is
> his first letter. Perhaps it would help of other scientists contacted the
> editor, although I doubt it.
>
> - Jed
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Letters To The Editor (chemistry ACS.org)
>
> Your recent anniversary issue (pages 42-49) contained an article by Lynn
> Teo Simarski titled "Eureka or Oops?" that requires a few comments. The
> cold fusion claims in 1989 were obviously overstated for an effect that
> proved to be difficult to reproduce. However, the main weapon used against
> cold fusion has been ridicule - and this is not part of the scientific
> method. My work has shown a reproducible excess heat effect for a
> palladium-boron material prepared by Dr. M.A. Imam of the Naval Research
> Laboratory (NRL), Washington D.C. This is documented in a recent report,
> "Calorimetric Analysis of a Heavy Water Experiment Using a Pd-B Alloy
> Cathode" authored by Drs. M. Fleischmann, M.A. Imam and myself
> (NRL/MR/6320-01-8526, March 26, 2001).
>
> My challenge for all critics of cold fusion is to use the scientific method
> and either accept the results of this report or clearly identify the
> scientific errors that invalidate this claim of an anomalous excess
> enthalpy effect. The actual raw experimental data is available in this
> detailed report (155 pages).
>
> For those scientists who desire a more accurate version of the cold fusion
> story, I recommend "Excess Heat: Why Cold Fusion Research Prevailed", Oak
> Grove Press, 2000 by Charles G. Beaudette.
>
> Dr. Melvin H. Miles
> Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division
> Code 4T4220D
> China Lake, CA 93555

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  8 12:05:49 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: NASA Hyper-X Program Demonstrates Scramjet Technologies
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:08:42 -0400
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Hmmm, they seem to have the same problem as those
old Chevy Malibu's...

http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/06/06/in.brief/#2

I'm waiting till they get the bugs out before ordering
mine.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 1:28 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: NASA Hyper-X Program Demonstrates Scramjet Technologies


I want one of these.

 http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Hyper-X.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  8 13:07:56 2001
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Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:03:05 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Depressing comments in Chemistry magazine
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>Jed, I also saw this article and sent an e-mail message to the editor.  I
>received no reply.

It is astounding that the editor does not even reply, or offer a chance to 
publish a rebuttal. That is a serious violation of academic ethics.


>  It is amazing how ignorance just keeps multiplying.

I don't find this aspect of it amazing. Suppression of dissent is the same 
mechanism that multiplied ignorance in the past. People did not understand 
the cause and cure for ignorance, just as they did not understand bacteria. 
What is amazing is that a modern journal editor would be as ignorant as 
common people were in 1700.


>Imagine how many other "facts" we are caused to believe because we have no 
>way of checking them.

It is even worse, in a sense. The person looking to debunk aviation in 1905 
would have to go to a university library and search through back issues of 
the Scientific American and other misinformed sources. You had to do a lot 
of work to find the wrong answer. Nowadays you go to the Internet and in a 
few seconds you are swamped by a barrage of newspaper articles and academic 
papers -- all of them dead wrong. The speed and ease with which 
misinformation falls into your lap gives the  wrong impression. You feel it 
must be right because you have checked several major scientific journals, 
the Scientific American, the DoE, the APS in a half hour, and they all 
agree. The power of the Internet as a misinformation vector resembles its 
role as a computer virus vector, and it resembles way airplanes and trucks 
rapidly spread new diseases like AIDS.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  8 13:48:58 2001
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Chris asked:

>Jed, please provide the house that supplies you - either on the list or
>private - so I can get stock up too. If you have a few little vials of
>tritium I would be interested in that too.

Ken says Alpha Aesar and Cole Parmer sell D2O without a hitch. He doesn't 
know where we got D2 gas. You can always make it yourself from D2O. I can 
understand why tritium sales are restricted, but there should be a way 
around the limitations. Why not talk to a local university, and see if they 
can get you some?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  8 15:24:29 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Many of mistakes in this paper.
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This is sad. Here is a paper by someone with his heart in the right place:

"Energetic Limits to Growth," by Jay Hanson -- www.dieoff.com
Appeared in ENERGY Magazine, Spring, 1999

http://www.dieoff.org/page175.htm

I sympathize with the guy's concern for ecology and his desire for 
renewable energy. But unfortunately, the paper is riddled with factual 
errors. This kind of thing hurts his cause more than it helps. Bruce Meland 
and many CF people have that problem. I have not gone through the paper 
carefully, but here are a few examples:

ICE are 20% efficient, not 50%.

Oil exploration and recovery are now much more efficient than they have 
ever been, not less efficient, thanks to increased knowledge of geology and 
the use of computers.

There is no shortage of uranium fuel. Known reserves will last 70 years. 
Uranium is as common as tin in the earth's surface. Virtually infinite 
quantities are available in seawater. It would probably be cost effective 
to recover it while desalinating water, since the freshwater would be 
tremendously valuable, and the recovered uranium would power the process 
with energy to spare.

No one is suggesting that automobile hydrogen fuel should be produced by 
present-day chemical methods. All studies advocate deriving hydrogen from 
solar or wind power. There is more than enough wind power to accomplish this.

Proven reserves of coal would last much longer than 40 years, even if coal 
is gasified and used in place of petroleum -- which is a ridiculous plan. 
Wind derived hydrogen would perfectly clean, and cheaper in the long run.

Hansen describes a famous wager:

In October 1980, Julian Simon challenged Paul Ehrlich and colleagues to a 
$1,000 bet that in ten years the price of any raw material they selected 
would fall (measured in constant 1980 dollars). In October 1991, Ehrlich 
paid up. The prices of the five minerals chosen (copper, chrome, nickel, 
tin and tungsten) had dropped substantially. Obviously, though, prices did 
not reflect the fact that ten years' worth of minerals had been taken out 
of the ground! One concludes that prices give no warning of approaching 
resource exhaustion.

There are three mistakes here:

1. Prices have often given warnings of resource shortages or exhaustion in 
the past. The economic mechanism may not be perfect, but it does work.

2. The materials taken out of the ground 100 years ago may still be in use. 
Any material can be recycled, if the cost is high enough. An unexpected 
breakthrough in a particular recycling technology might occur, or products 
can be deliberately redesigned to make recycling more cost effective. Laws 
in Europe have forced computer makers to do this.

3. Prices reflect the use and demand for materials as well as extraction 
and recycling cost. Manufacturing is more efficient, and improved product 
design wastes less, so there is less demand for many materials. For 
example, one of the largest uses of copper in 1980 was in 
telecommunications. In 1976, the world's first commercial fiber optic cable 
was laid in Atlanta, and today silicon fiber has replaced copper nearly 
everywhere, except from the subscriber to the central office. Silicon is 
cheaper than copper, and the mass of silicon per byte of data is a million 
times smaller than the mass of copper.

All in all, Hansen underestimates people's abilities to innovate and 
conserve. In company with the Vice President, he ignores resources such as 
wind power. Naturally, he knows nothing about cold fusion, which is 
probably not his fault. It may come along and defeat his predictions 
completely, opening up the resources of the solar system, giving us 
billions of times more raw materials than we now have access to. We may 
move all large-scale manufacturing and industrial energy consumption to the 
moon, where it will not bother anyone or hurt the earth's ecology.

- Jed

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 08:29:37 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:14:17 -0500:
[snip]
>poles again, and so on. If this flow pattern were strong enough, it would
>produce an observable differential rotation pattern in Earth's atmosphere,
>such that the atmosphere would rotate more slowly at higher altitudes, and
>more slowly nearer to the poles. However, Earth is a small planet, close to
[snip]
>region where Earth's gravity is dominant. (Note: Earth's magnetic field
>acts as a shield against the solar wind.) --MJ}***
Is it possible that the Earth's magnetic field *is* the detectable
effect of the aether flow?
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:51:00 -0600:

>Jed, I also saw this article and sent an e-mail message to the editor.  I
>received no reply. It is amazing how ignorance just keeps multiplying.
>Imagine how many other "facts" we are caused to believe because we have no way
>of checking them.
>
>Ed
Personally I favour a conspiracy theory (any one will do). :)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
New model hydrogen atom see http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/New-hydrogen.html

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jun 08, 2001
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:20:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 8 Jun 01   Washington, DC

1. "THE SCIENCES": THE VOICE OF SCIENCE IS GROWING FAINTER.  The
New York Academy of Sciences will cease publication of its 40-
year-old award-winning magazine immediately.  These days, with
the public being sold everything from perpetual motion to
magnetic insoles, all in the name of science, the decision to
pull the plug on what is surely the world's classiest science
magazine comes as a rude shock.  Beautifully written and edited,
"The Sciences" demonstrated that good science is not incompatible
with literacy and a sense of humor. Rather than head shots of
scientists and experimental schematics, for example, it has been
illustrated with art gleaned from galleries everywhere.  The
connection between the science and the art is often whimsical.  I
have long imagined that the person who selects the art to go with
the science must surely have the world's most enjoyable job.

2. GLOBAL WARMING: IS THE SCIENTIFIC DEBATE COOLING DOWN?  The
National Academy this week delivered a report on global warming,
requested by the Bush administration.  While emphasizing the need
for additional climate research to reduce uncertainties, the
report concluded that global warming has taken place in the last
50 years as a result of human activity.  According to the report,
this conclusion "accurately reflects the current thinking of the
scientific community."  Indeed, there are hints of a scientific
consensus.  Rather than scoffing at the idea, critics now seem to
argue that if there is warming, it's probably good for us. 

3. MISSILE DEFENSE: IS SOMETHING BETTER THAN NOTHING?  Secretary
of Defense Rumsfeld is pushing for a rudimentary missile defense
by the end of President Bush's current term in 2004, whether it
has been fully tested or not.  He's unlikely to get any argument
from the Defense Policy Board, which will be headed by super
hawk, Richard Perle.  An Assistant Secretary of Defense in the
Reagan administration, Perle was a chief Pentagon architect of
Reagan's hopelessly impractical Star Wars missile defense (WN 13
Mar 87).  Carl Sagan called once him "the Prince of Darkness."

4. EMF: ABC NEWS DISCOVERS CANCER CLUSTERS.  Three older men,
working in the same office in Albuquerque, NM, came down with
breast cancer.  Male breast cancer is a fairly rare disease,
suggesting a possible environmental cause.  Monday, they appeared
on ABC Good Morning America, with their lawyers, to discuss what
Diane Sawyer called a "chilling medical mystery."  Guess what? 
They solved the mystery.  It had to be the electromagnetic fields
from a power vault next to their office.  Never mind that other
offices have power vaults and no male breast cancer.  There was
no statistician on the show to discuss clustering, no cancer
researcher to discuss the results of epidemiological studies (WN
4 Jul 97) and no scientist to explain why EMF at power line
frequencies cannot create mutant strands of DNA.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 5:18 PM
Subject: Many of mistakes in this paper.

Jed wrote:


> This is sad. Here is a paper by someone with his heart in the right place:
>
> "Energetic Limits to Growth," by Jay Hanson -- www.dieoff.com
> Appeared in ENERGY Magazine, Spring, 1999
>
> http://www.dieoff.org/page175.htm
>
> No one is suggesting that automobile hydrogen fuel should be produced by
> present-day chemical methods. All studies advocate deriving hydrogen from
> solar or wind power. There is more than enough wind power to accomplish this.

At what cost Jed? It takes 25 Kw-Hr  per pound of Hydrogen produced.   At $.10/ kw-hr
and 55,000 btu/lb
heat of combustion for H2 you are getting close to $2.50
for the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline or diesel.

Even if you commited all of the hydro and nuclear to hydrogen production you couldn't
come close to meeting the demand.

OTOH, Biomass wastes and crops can be partially oxidized to carbon  monoxide:

Cellulose portion of plants:

1, C6H10O5 + 3 O2 ---> 6 CO + 5 H2O + heat

2, 6 CO + 6 H2O ---->  6 CO2 +  6 H2

Lignin portion of plants:

1, C6H8O2 + 4 O2 --->  6 CO + 4 H2O

2, 6 CO + 6 H2O ---> 6 CO2 + 6 H2

At $25.00/ton for collecting/producingbiomass wastes/crops and about $25.00/ton for
concentrating atmospheric O2 (about 300 kw-hr/ton for cryogenic production) you are at
about $500/ton of Hydrogen (about $0.25/lb).

Regards,   Frederick
>
> - Jed
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  8 18:52:07 2001
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Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 20:47:06 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Nemesis: The Death Star
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***{Several days ago I attempted to elicit some comments from this group
concerning Dr. Richard Muller's theory that Sol (the sun) is in an
elliptical orbit with a hidden companion star, probably a red dwarf, which
he calls "Nemesis." According to his book, the period of Nemesis' orbit is
about 26 million years and, at its closest approach it is about 1 light
year from Sol--close enough to tkick loose a storm of comets from the Oort
cloud, when then rain down on Earth, triggering mass extinctions. He posits
the existence of such a star in an attempt to explain the paleontological
data of Raup and Sepkoski, which show that the last ten mass extinctions on
Earth had a periodicity of, very roughly, 26 million years. Since this
theory flies in the face of prevailing scientific views, I think it merits
some discussion here. For those who would like to read a summary of Dr.
Muller's theory, please check out http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/lbl-nem.htm.
Even better, if you can obtain it, would be to read a copy of *Nemesis: The
Death Star*. (Highly recommended! :-)

The other day I posted to this group a copy of a note which I had e-mailed
to Dr. Muller, which outlined a new variant of the Nemesis theory that had
occurred to me. Since that post elicited no feedback from this group, I
looked back over it again, and decided that it was so cryptic that none of
you probably understood it. (Muller understood it because he understands
his theory. For you guys, however, more info is required. :-) Therefore, in
the interests of stimulating a discussion, I'm going to elaborate a bit.

Note first that the sun (Sol) is on the inside edge of the Orion spiral
arm, about 8500 parsecs from the center of the galaxy, and about 8 parsecs
above the midplane. Because the galaxy has a thickness of (very roughly)
1500 parsecs in the region near the sun, and because the center of gravity
of the galactic disc is at the midplane, every star in the disc is
constantly bobbing up and down, going above the midplane, then below, then
above it again, and so on. This behavior is an instance of harmonic motion,
analogous to the up and down motion of a lead weight hanging from a spring
or to the swinging of a pendulum back and forth through the vertical, with
the difference being that the periods of the stars are on the order of
millions of years rather than a few seconds.

It was this bobbing up and down that provided the genesis of my idea.

By Muller's version, remember, Nemesis is in an elliptical orbit around Sol
(the sun), with its closest approach being at a distance of about 1 light
year. Unfortunately, 13 years have elapsed since he published his theory,
and, despite a lot of searching, astronomers have failed to find any
Nemesis candidates that are close enough to Sol to be in orbit around it.
Hence my idea: maybe Nemesis is not gravitationally bound to Sol at all.
Instead, maybe Nemesis is an independent star, bobbing up and down like
Sol, which which is pretty much in an inverse harmonic relationship with
it: when Sol is rising above the midplane, Nemesis is descending below it;
when Sol is descending below it, Nemesis is rising above it; and so on. By
my idea, Nemesis and Sol are *not* gravitationally bound, and as a
consequence, will normally be separated by great distances. Once every 26
million years however, they pass one another like two ships in the night,
and a shower of comets into the inner solar system will be the result.

With that background, here is my e-mail to Dr. Muller again:

>"Hi Richard. I read your book, *Nemesis: The Death Star* several years ago.
>The other day, while flipping through it again, it occurred to me that
>Nemesis doesn't really have to be in orbit around the sun (Sol). Suppose,
>instead, that as Sol bobs up and down in its roughly circular spiral path
>around the center of the galaxy, Nemesis is following a similar trajectory,
>but with the following difference: Sol bobs up and down with a period of
>roughly 26 million years, and Nemesis bobs up and down with a period of
>roughly 52 million years. Result: on every half-cycle, which will be about
>26 million years, Nemesis will cross the galactic plane--which means: it
>will pass near Sol and disrupt the Oort comet cloud. Result: a rain of
>comets into the inner solar system. If this theory is correct, then Nemesis
>would not have to be a red dwarf: it could be a much larger star that is
>typically much farther from the sun than the .73 pc which you supposed in
>your book (pg. 106). What do you think? --Mitchell Jones"

Dr. Muller responded to the above message, and we have been kicking my idea
around for the last few days, with him against it and me for it. (Now
there's a surprise! :-) Result: I have been forced to modify the idea
somewhat in response to his criticisms. Here are quotes from a couple of my
recent messages to him, which hopefully will make it clear how my idea has
evolved:

(1) He objected that all of the stars have the same bobbing period, making
an analogy to the weight on a spring model of harmonic motion, and he also
pointed out that Sol's bobbing period is roughly twice the interval between
mass extinctions on Earth, rather than equal to it. Here was my response:

> ***{OK, then suppose that Sol and Nemesis have almost the same period,
> with the graphs of their motion being virtual mirror images of one
> another--i.e., suppose that when Sol is above the midplane, Nemesis is
> roughly an equal distance below it, and vice-versa. In that case, the
> required roughly 26 million year periodicity for close encounters is
> obtained, despite the difficulties associated with a force that increases
> as you move away from the midplane. --MJ}***

(2) He suggested that I needed to demonstrate the stability of the orbit I
was proposing, to which I replied:

> ***{What orbit? :-) My concept is that these guys are moving primarily
> under the influence of the mass of the galactic disc itself, and, thus,
> are moving essentially independently of one another, like two pendulums in
> parallel planes that swing past each other in opposite directions. In
> other words, Nemesis and Sol are not a bound system: if the galactic disc
> were to suddenly vanish, they would fly off quite independently of one
> another. --MJ}***

(3) He repeated the claim (from his book) that Nemesis needed to approach
to within 1 light year of Sol, to which I responded:

> ***{The heart of the Oort comet cloud is at about 70,000 AU. It is
> reasonable to suppose that Nemesis also is surrounded by a comet cloud and
> that the heart of it is also at about 70,000 AU. If the center of one
> cloud passes through the center of the other, that should cause enough
> disruption to rain comets into the inner solar system. Thus the closest
> that Nemesis and Sol have to approach each other is roughly 2(70,000) =
> 140,000 AU, or about 2.2 light years. --MJ}***

(4) He suggested that, after one close approach, the bobbing patterns of
Nemesis and Sol would be so perturbed that they would never approach one
another again, to which I responded:

> ***{If we assume that Nemesis and Sol are identical systems and that the
> separation distance on a close pass is 2.2 light years, the maximum force
> of attraction between them will be F = GMm/r^2 =
> (6.672x10^-8)(1.9891x10^33)^2/[(2.2)(9.4605x10^17)]^2 = 6.09x10^22 dynes.
>
> How significant is that? Well, if it were applied to Nemesis (or Sol) for
> 1 million years (which it wouldn't be), total change in velocity would be
> a*t = (F/m)t = (6.09x10^22/1.9891x10^33)(10^6)(365.25)(24)(3600) =
> 9.7x10^-25 cm/sec.
>
> With the typical velocities of stars in the local group being roughly 220
> km/sec, I don't think we have to worry very much about Sol perturbing
> Nemesis or vice versa! :-)
>
> Bottom line: this sort of mechanism looks stable enough to last through
> ten 26-million-year cycles, as required by the original Raup and Sepkoski
> data--or twenty, or thirty, or fifty cycles, for that matter.
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***

That's pretty much where things stand at the moment. As I indicated the
other day, I am intensely interested in this topic, and I would appreciate
any comments or criticisms that anybody would care to toss at me. Am I way
off base here, or not?

--Mitchell Jones}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mitchell Jones" <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: Nemesis: The Death Star

The 26 million year mass extinction cycle theory was put
forth by paleontologists David Raup and John Sepkoski of the Unversity of Chicago in
1983.

One version of the companion "death star" theory shortly after Raup and Sepkoski was
put forth by Daniel Whitmire of the University of Southwestern Louisiana and Albert
Jackson of Computer Sciences Corp.of Houston.
The other version was put forth by Marc Davis and Richard Muller of the University of
California at Berkely along with Piet Hut of the Institute of Advanced Study in
Princton, New Jersey.

The theory that the cycle is caused by the periodic passing
of the Sun through the galactic plane every 60 million years was put forth by Michael
Rampino and Richard Stothers of the Goddard Institute for Space Studys in New York
City.

The latter seems close to what you propose.

Regards,  Frederick


> ***{Several days ago I attempted to elicit some comments from this group
> concerning Dr. Richard Muller's theory that Sol (the sun) is in an
> elliptical orbit with a hidden companion star, probably a red dwarf, which
> he calls "Nemesis." According to his book, the period of Nemesis' orbit is
> about 26 million years and, at its closest approach it is about 1 light
> year from Sol--close enough to tkick loose a storm of comets from the Oort
> cloud, when then rain down on Earth, triggering mass extinctions. He posits
> the existence of such a star in an attempt to explain the paleontological
> data of Raup and Sepkoski, which show that the last ten mass extinctions on
> Earth had a periodicity of, very roughly, 26 million years. Since this
> theory flies in the face of prevailing scientific views, I think it merits
> some discussion here. For those who would like to read a summary of Dr.
> Muller's theory, please check out http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/lbl-nem.htm.
> Even better, if you can obtain it, would be to read a copy of *Nemesis: The
> Death Star*. (Highly recommended! :-)
>
> The other day I posted to this group a copy of a note which I had e-mailed
> to Dr. Muller, which outlined a new variant of the Nemesis theory that had
> occurred to me. Since that post elicited no feedback from this group, I
> looked back over it again, and decided that it was so cryptic that none of
> you probably understood it. (Muller understood it because he understands
> his theory. For you guys, however, more info is required. :-) Therefore, in
> the interests of stimulating a discussion, I'm going to elaborate a bit.
>
> Note first that the sun (Sol) is on the inside edge of the Orion spiral
> arm, about 8500 parsecs from the center of the galaxy, and about 8 parsecs
> above the midplane. Because the galaxy has a thickness of (very roughly)
> 1500 parsecs in the region near the sun, and because the center of gravity
> of the galactic disc is at the midplane, every star in the disc is
> constantly bobbing up and down, going above the midplane, then below, then
> above it again, and so on. This behavior is an instance of harmonic motion,
> analogous to the up and down motion of a lead weight hanging from a spring
> or to the swinging of a pendulum back and forth through the vertical, with
> the difference being that the periods of the stars are on the order of
> millions of years rather than a few seconds.
>
> It was this bobbing up and down that provided the genesis of my idea.
>
> By Muller's version, remember, Nemesis is in an elliptical orbit around Sol
> (the sun), with its closest approach being at a distance of about 1 light
> year. Unfortunately, 13 years have elapsed since he published his theory,
> and, despite a lot of searching, astronomers have failed to find any
> Nemesis candidates that are close enough to Sol to be in orbit around it.
> Hence my idea: maybe Nemesis is not gravitationally bound to Sol at all.
> Instead, maybe Nemesis is an independent star, bobbing up and down like
> Sol, which which is pretty much in an inverse harmonic relationship with
> it: when Sol is rising above the midplane, Nemesis is descending below it;
> when Sol is descending below it, Nemesis is rising above it; and so on. By
> my idea, Nemesis and Sol are *not* gravitationally bound, and as a
> consequence, will normally be separated by great distances. Once every 26
> million years however, they pass one another like two ships in the night,
> and a shower of comets into the inner solar system will be the result.
>
> With that background, here is my e-mail to Dr. Muller again:
>
> >"Hi Richard. I read your book, *Nemesis: The Death Star* several years ago.
> >The other day, while flipping through it again, it occurred to me that
> >Nemesis doesn't really have to be in orbit around the sun (Sol). Suppose,
> >instead, that as Sol bobs up and down in its roughly circular spiral path
> >around the center of the galaxy, Nemesis is following a similar trajectory,
> >but with the following difference: Sol bobs up and down with a period of
> >roughly 26 million years, and Nemesis bobs up and down with a period of
> >roughly 52 million years. Result: on every half-cycle, which will be about
> >26 million years, Nemesis will cross the galactic plane--which means: it
> >will pass near Sol and disrupt the Oort comet cloud. Result: a rain of
> >comets into the inner solar system. If this theory is correct, then Nemesis
> >would not have to be a red dwarf: it could be a much larger star that is
> >typically much farther from the sun than the .73 pc which you supposed in
> >your book (pg. 106). What do you think? --Mitchell Jones"
>
> Dr. Muller responded to the above message, and we have been kicking my idea
> around for the last few days, with him against it and me for it. (Now
> there's a surprise! :-) Result: I have been forced to modify the idea
> somewhat in response to his criticisms. Here are quotes from a couple of my
> recent messages to him, which hopefully will make it clear how my idea has
> evolved:
>
> (1) He objected that all of the stars have the same bobbing period, making
> an analogy to the weight on a spring model of harmonic motion, and he also
> pointed out that Sol's bobbing period is roughly twice the interval between
> mass extinctions on Earth, rather than equal to it. Here was my response:
>
> > ***{OK, then suppose that Sol and Nemesis have almost the same period,
> > with the graphs of their motion being virtual mirror images of one
> > another--i.e., suppose that when Sol is above the midplane, Nemesis is
> > roughly an equal distance below it, and vice-versa. In that case, the
> > required roughly 26 million year periodicity for close encounters is
> > obtained, despite the difficulties associated with a force that increases
> > as you move away from the midplane. --MJ}***
>
> (2) He suggested that I needed to demonstrate the stability of the orbit I
> was proposing, to which I replied:
>
> > ***{What orbit? :-) My concept is that these guys are moving primarily
> > under the influence of the mass of the galactic disc itself, and, thus,
> > are moving essentially independently of one another, like two pendulums in
> > parallel planes that swing past each other in opposite directions. In
> > other words, Nemesis and Sol are not a bound system: if the galactic disc
> > were to suddenly vanish, they would fly off quite independently of one
> > another. --MJ}***
>
> (3) He repeated the claim (from his book) that Nemesis needed to approach
> to within 1 light year of Sol, to which I responded:
>
> > ***{The heart of the Oort comet cloud is at about 70,000 AU. It is
> > reasonable to suppose that Nemesis also is surrounded by a comet cloud and
> > that the heart of it is also at about 70,000 AU. If the center of one
> > cloud passes through the center of the other, that should cause enough
> > disruption to rain comets into the inner solar system. Thus the closest
> > that Nemesis and Sol have to approach each other is roughly 2(70,000) =
> > 140,000 AU, or about 2.2 light years. --MJ}***
>
> (4) He suggested that, after one close approach, the bobbing patterns of
> Nemesis and Sol would be so perturbed that they would never approach one
> another again, to which I responded:
>
> > ***{If we assume that Nemesis and Sol are identical systems and that the
> > separation distance on a close pass is 2.2 light years, the maximum force
> > of attraction between them will be F = GMm/r^2 =
> > (6.672x10^-8)(1.9891x10^33)^2/[(2.2)(9.4605x10^17)]^2 = 6.09x10^22 dynes.
> >
> > How significant is that? Well, if it were applied to Nemesis (or Sol) for
> > 1 million years (which it wouldn't be), total change in velocity would be
> > a*t = (F/m)t = (6.09x10^22/1.9891x10^33)(10^6)(365.25)(24)(3600) =
> > 9.7x10^-25 cm/sec.
> >
> > With the typical velocities of stars in the local group being roughly 220
> > km/sec, I don't think we have to worry very much about Sol perturbing
> > Nemesis or vice versa! :-)
> >
> > Bottom line: this sort of mechanism looks stable enough to last through
> > ten 26-million-year cycles, as required by the original Raup and Sepkoski
> > data--or twenty, or thirty, or fifty cycles, for that matter.
> >
> > --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> That's pretty much where things stand at the moment. As I indicated the
> other day, I am intensely interested in this topic, and I would appreciate
> any comments or criticisms that anybody would care to toss at me. Am I way
> off base here, or not?
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
>
> "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
> be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  8 21:18:33 2001
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Nemesis: The Death Star
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 21:17:42 -0700
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Mitchell,
	Good work.
There is precedence for your theory. You may have gravitationally bound
harmonics in a orbiting system with separate orbits. There are several
levels of these harmonics.

However Occam's Razor postulates that you do not need the Nemesis star. Your
theory  is sound, as moons of Jupiter and Saturn exhibit harmonics, and
therefore any gravitationally bound system may do so.

Your theory misses out the relevant facts that the galactic disk may also be
in fact a breeding ground for much vaster numbers of dark cometary material.
Just the passing of the sun through these lanes may in fact cause the event
you described. This would explain how the comets in our solar system may
actually come in all angles to the plane of solar elliptic and plane of
galactic elliptic.

A Particle ( excuse the ASCII ART ) called the Solar system Moves through
the galactic plane.

0                       oo								0
	0         oooo  <-		26 million years		      ->oooo	0
OOOOOOOOOO(0)OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO(0)OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
		oooo	0				         oooo
		  oo		0			0
					0	0

The sun then would trade stable OORT cloud comets with the "OORT filled
Galactic Plane"

The remaining years of passage would be the distillation of the unstable
orbits.

The Masses of Saturn and Jupiter and the Sun would serve to eject most of
the inner comets crossing those orbits into deep space

Thus the function of stars like the Sun would function to "stir'" up the
galactic plane and introduce more elements into its system, as well as
causing gravitational eddy currents that may actually spawn more star
systems.

This also would have some larger and some comparatively few extinctions
depending on the density of the galactic disk, as noted by evidence.

We may find that not only our earth is in the right place for life to occur
( read water vapor ) but we are orbiting the galaxy at the right distance
and the right way to keep our oceans full.

We have plenty of evidence that once you add up all the factors, there is a
Creator.
Nice design! Thanks.

Hope to be around 26 million years from now to see ! Interesting to note
that in the Creative account of the earth written in Genesis by Moses, and
parts of Psalms, before there was life even, that even the astronomical way
the earth was formed was accurately expressed in Hebrew language, thousands
of years before the invention of the telescope.

Cheers !

Matthew Rogers
Prove it..

-----Original Message-----
From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones jump.net]
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 6:47 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Nemesis: The Death Star

***{Several days ago I attempted to elicit some comments from this group
concerning Dr. Richard Muller's theory that Sol (the sun) is in an
elliptical orbit with a hidden companion star, probably a red dwarf, which
he calls "Nemesis." According to his book, the period of Nemesis' orbit is
about 26 million years and, at its closest approach it is about 1 light
year from Sol--close enough to tkick loose a storm of comets from the Oort
cloud, when then rain down on Earth, triggering mass extinctions. He posits
the existence of such a star in an attempt to explain the paleontological
data of Raup and Sepkoski, which show that the last ten mass extinctions on
Earth had a periodicity of, very roughly, 26 million years. Since this
theory flies in the face of prevailing scientific views, I think it merits
some discussion here. For those who would like to read a summary of Dr.
Muller's theory, please check out http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/lbl-nem.htm.
Even better, if you can obtain it, would be to read a copy of *Nemesis: The
Death Star*. (Highly recommended! :-)

The other day I posted to this group a copy of a note which I had e-mailed
to Dr. Muller, which outlined a new variant of the Nemesis theory that had
occurred to me. Since that post elicited no feedback from this group, I
looked back over it again, and decided that it was so cryptic that none of
you probably understood it. (Muller understood it because he understands
his theory. For you guys, however, more info is required. :-) Therefore, in
the interests of stimulating a discussion, I'm going to elaborate a bit.

Note first that the sun (Sol) is on the inside edge of the Orion spiral
arm, about 8500 parsecs from the center of the galaxy, and about 8 parsecs
above the midplane. Because the galaxy has a thickness of (very roughly)
1500 parsecs in the region near the sun, and because the center of gravity
of the galactic disc is at the midplane, every star in the disc is
constantly bobbing up and down, going above the midplane, then below, then
above it again, and so on. This behavior is an instance of harmonic motion,
analogous to the up and down motion of a lead weight hanging from a spring
or to the swinging of a pendulum back and forth through the vertical, with
the difference being that the periods of the stars are on the order of
millions of years rather than a few seconds.

It was this bobbing up and down that provided the genesis of my idea.

By Muller's version, remember, Nemesis is in an elliptical orbit around Sol
(the sun), with its closest approach being at a distance of about 1 light
year. Unfortunately, 13 years have elapsed since he published his theory,
and, despite a lot of searching, astronomers have failed to find any
Nemesis candidates that are close enough to Sol to be in orbit around it.
Hence my idea: maybe Nemesis is not gravitationally bound to Sol at all.
Instead, maybe Nemesis is an independent star, bobbing up and down like
Sol, which which is pretty much in an inverse harmonic relationship with
it: when Sol is rising above the midplane, Nemesis is descending below it;
when Sol is descending below it, Nemesis is rising above it; and so on. By
my idea, Nemesis and Sol are *not* gravitationally bound, and as a
consequence, will normally be separated by great distances. Once every 26
million years however, they pass one another like two ships in the night,
and a shower of comets into the inner solar system will be the result.

With that background, here is my e-mail to Dr. Muller again:

>"Hi Richard. I read your book, *Nemesis: The Death Star* several years ago.
>The other day, while flipping through it again, it occurred to me that
>Nemesis doesn't really have to be in orbit around the sun (Sol). Suppose,
>instead, that as Sol bobs up and down in its roughly circular spiral path
>around the center of the galaxy, Nemesis is following a similar trajectory,
>but with the following difference: Sol bobs up and down with a period of
>roughly 26 million years, and Nemesis bobs up and down with a period of
>roughly 52 million years. Result: on every half-cycle, which will be about
>26 million years, Nemesis will cross the galactic plane--which means: it
>will pass near Sol and disrupt the Oort comet cloud. Result: a rain of
>comets into the inner solar system. If this theory is correct, then Nemesis
>would not have to be a red dwarf: it could be a much larger star that is
>typically much farther from the sun than the .73 pc which you supposed in
>your book (pg. 106). What do you think? --Mitchell Jones"

Dr. Muller responded to the above message, and we have been kicking my idea
around for the last few days, with him against it and me for it. (Now
there's a surprise! :-) Result: I have been forced to modify the idea
somewhat in response to his criticisms. Here are quotes from a couple of my
recent messages to him, which hopefully will make it clear how my idea has
evolved:

(1) He objected that all of the stars have the same bobbing period, making
an analogy to the weight on a spring model of harmonic motion, and he also
pointed out that Sol's bobbing period is roughly twice the interval between
mass extinctions on Earth, rather than equal to it. Here was my response:

> ***{OK, then suppose that Sol and Nemesis have almost the same period,
> with the graphs of their motion being virtual mirror images of one
> another--i.e., suppose that when Sol is above the midplane, Nemesis is
> roughly an equal distance below it, and vice-versa. In that case, the
> required roughly 26 million year periodicity for close encounters is
> obtained, despite the difficulties associated with a force that increases
> as you move away from the midplane. --MJ}***

(2) He suggested that I needed to demonstrate the stability of the orbit I
was proposing, to which I replied:

> ***{What orbit? :-) My concept is that these guys are moving primarily
> under the influence of the mass of the galactic disc itself, and, thus,
> are moving essentially independently of one another, like two pendulums in
> parallel planes that swing past each other in opposite directions. In
> other words, Nemesis and Sol are not a bound system: if the galactic disc
> were to suddenly vanish, they would fly off quite independently of one
> another. --MJ}***

(3) He repeated the claim (from his book) that Nemesis needed to approach
to within 1 light year of Sol, to which I responded:

> ***{The heart of the Oort comet cloud is at about 70,000 AU. It is
> reasonable to suppose that Nemesis also is surrounded by a comet cloud and
> that the heart of it is also at about 70,000 AU. If the center of one
> cloud passes through the center of the other, that should cause enough
> disruption to rain comets into the inner solar system. Thus the closest
> that Nemesis and Sol have to approach each other is roughly 2(70,000) =
> 140,000 AU, or about 2.2 light years. --MJ}***

(4) He suggested that, after one close approach, the bobbing patterns of
Nemesis and Sol would be so perturbed that they would never approach one
another again, to which I responded:

> ***{If we assume that Nemesis and Sol are identical systems and that the
> separation distance on a close pass is 2.2 light years, the maximum force
> of attraction between them will be F = GMm/r^2 =
> (6.672x10^-8)(1.9891x10^33)^2/[(2.2)(9.4605x10^17)]^2 = 6.09x10^22 dynes.
>
> How significant is that? Well, if it were applied to Nemesis (or Sol) for
> 1 million years (which it wouldn't be), total change in velocity would be
> a*t = (F/m)t = (6.09x10^22/1.9891x10^33)(10^6)(365.25)(24)(3600) =
> 9.7x10^-25 cm/sec.
>
> With the typical velocities of stars in the local group being roughly 220
> km/sec, I don't think we have to worry very much about Sol perturbing
> Nemesis or vice versa! :-)
>
> Bottom line: this sort of mechanism looks stable enough to last through
> ten 26-million-year cycles, as required by the original Raup and Sepkoski
> data--or twenty, or thirty, or fifty cycles, for that matter.
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***

That's pretty much where things stand at the moment. As I indicated the
other day, I am intensely interested in this topic, and I would appreciate
any comments or criticisms that anybody would care to toss at me. Am I way
off base here, or not?

--Mitchell Jones}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

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Subject: Re: Nemesis: The Death Star
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>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mitchell Jones" <mjones jump.net>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:47 PM
>Subject: Re: Nemesis: The Death Star
>
>The 26 million year mass extinction cycle theory was put
>forth by paleontologists David Raup and John Sepkoski of the Unversity of
>Chicago in
>1983.
>
>One version of the companion "death star" theory shortly after Raup and
>Sepkoski was
>put forth by Daniel Whitmire of the University of Southwestern Louisiana
>and Albert
>Jackson of Computer Sciences Corp.of Houston.
>The other version was put forth by Marc Davis and Richard Muller of the
>University of
>California at Berkely along with Piet Hut of the Institute of Advanced
>Study in
>Princton, New Jersey.
>
>The theory that the cycle is caused by the periodic passing
>of the Sun through the galactic plane every 60 million years was put forth
>by Michael
>Rampino and Richard Stothers of the Goddard Institute for Space Studys in
>New York
>City.
>
>The latter seems close to what you propose.

***{Thanks for the info. I was unaware that Rampino and Stothers had a
horse in the race. From your description, though, I must say I don't see
how their idea could work. The plane of the galaxy (a.k.a., the midplane)
is defined as the plane which (a) is perpendicular to the axis of rotation
of the galaxy, and (b) passes through the galactic center of mass. As such,
it is a mathematical abstraction, not a real thing, and thus it exerts no
effects on anything. That means another stellar mass--Nemesis--is required
to pass near Sol, if the Oort cloud is to be perturbed. Merely passing
through the midplane won't do it. Thus I do not really disagree with Rich
Muller's basic idea: the star which he called Nemesis is required to make
this work. My point is to merely broaden the criteria by which it may be
identified. --MJ}***

>Regards,  Frederick
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

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Mitchell Jones wrote:

***{Several days ago I attempted to elicit some comments
from this group concerning Dr. Richard Muller's theory
that Sol (the sun) is in an elliptical orbit with a hidden
companion star, probably a red dwarf, which he calls "Nemesis."

... He posits the existence of such a star in an attempt to
explain the paleontological data of Raup and Sepkoski,
which show that the last ten mass extinctions on Earth had
a periodicity of, very roughly, 26 million years.

... For those who would like to read a summary of Dr.  Muller's
theory, please check out http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/lbl-nem.htm.

Frederick Sparber wrote:

... The theory that the cycle is caused by the periodic passing
of the Sun through the galactic plane every 60 million
years was put forth by Michael Rampino and Richard Stothers
of the Goddard Institute for Space Studys in New York City.

Mitchell Jones wrote:

***{Thanks for the info. I was unaware that Rampino and
Stothers had a horse in the race. From your description,
though, I must say I don't see how their idea could work.

... Another stellar mass--Nemesis--is required to
pass near Sol, if the Oort cloud is to be perturbed. Merely
passing through the midplane won't do it.

Matthew Rogers wrote:

... Occam's Razor postulates that you do not need the
Nemesis star.

Your theory misses out the relevant facts that the galactic
disk may also be in fact a breeding ground for much vaster
numbers of dark cometary material.  Just the passing of
the sun through these lanes may in fact cause the event
you described ...

Hi Mitchell,

I went to http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/lbl-nem.htm.
There was an interesting transformation of the paleontological
data of Raup and Sepkoski, but I could not find the data itself.
Please give me a web reference where I can find the data.

Most interesting to me at the above site is
Dr. Richard Muller's related theory of ice ages.  Unfortunately
his treatment of this subject was very brief, and no links
or references were given.  I would appreciate any further
information on this topic.

Thanks, Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  9 08:48:37 2001
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Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 08:46:04 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Many of mistakes in this paper.
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:

>At what cost Jed? It takes 25 Kw-Hr  per pound of Hydrogen produced.   
>At $.10/ kw-hr and 55,000 btu/lb heat of combustion for H2 you are getting 
>close to $2.50 for the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline or diesel.

>OTOH, Biomass wastes and crops can be partially oxidized to carbon  
>monoxide.... about $500/ton of Hydrogen (about $0.25/lb).

Hi Frederick,

Yes, just consider this promising technology, Biomass conversion, as one more 
oversight in the brain-dead energy "policy" of the Bush gang. The average joe 
was kind of secretly smirking when the only energy problem, which was 
fostered by these greed mongers who stole the White House, was far away in 
California (they deserve it, don't they?). But now that manipulated high prices 
are coming home to main street, things are beginning to sour a bit for shrub & 
the good ol' boys.  Their so-called policy document is more a legalized money 
grab than anythinbg else. 

BTW, do they have a "recall" at the national level?

One hidden reason that Bush and Cheney have neglected biomass (which is 
based on real economic evidence, as cynical as it sounds) is that biomass 
would greatly benefit the American farmer, especially on marginal Western 
lands, owned by a smallish nonvocal constituency that would never vote for the 
liberals anyway. They don't "want" to hurt these guys really, but there is an 
unobvious repurcussion: cheaper land prices in oil country for their friends and 
supporters to gobble up. The major controllable cost of oil production these 
days is not exploration or production but land acquisition. That is why they are 
so focused on getting Federal land like the Alaska wildlife refuge, etc. Give 
Bush another term and it will be Yellowstone. And don't forget... those 
marginalized farmers would make more money as deep drillers anyway (just 
ask Bruce Willis).

But an even cheaper hydrogen economy solution than Biomass (potentially) 
comes from the technology of Melis Energy and a few other startup 
comapanies and their collaborators at the National Renewable Energy 
Laboratory (NREL). 

Dr. Tasios Melis has uncovered a truly remarkable metabolic process by which 
plain old green algae (suitably modified) is stimulated to produce significant 
amounts of hydrogen, instead of oxygen, during photosynthesis. "I guess it's the 
equivalent of striking oil," said the UC Berkeley biology professor. "It was 
enormously exciting, it was unbelievable." The story of this discovery was 
published in The San Francisco Chronicle on Jan 29, 2000.

Melis is a top priority on the Bush/Cheney hit list.

Regards,

Jones Beene


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  9 08:57:34 2001
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Many of mistakes in this paper.

Agreed Jones.

I found out the hard way over the last quarter century, the problems are Not
Technical, only Political.

Regards,  Frederick


> Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >At what cost Jed? It takes 25 Kw-Hr  per pound of Hydrogen produced.
> >At $.10/ kw-hr and 55,000 btu/lb heat of combustion for H2 you are getting
> >close to $2.50 for the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline or diesel.
>
> >OTOH, Biomass wastes and crops can be partially oxidized to carbon
> >monoxide.... about $500/ton of Hydrogen (about $0.25/lb).
>
> Hi Frederick,
>
> Yes, just consider this promising technology, Biomass conversion, as one more
> oversight in the brain-dead energy "policy" of the Bush gang. The average joe
> was kind of secretly smirking when the only energy problem, which was
> fostered by these greed mongers who stole the White House, was far away in
> California (they deserve it, don't they?). But now that manipulated high prices
> are coming home to main street, things are beginning to sour a bit for shrub &
> the good ol' boys.  Their so-called policy document is more a legalized money
> grab than anythinbg else.
>
> BTW, do they have a "recall" at the national level?
>
> One hidden reason that Bush and Cheney have neglected biomass (which is
> based on real economic evidence, as cynical as it sounds) is that biomass
> would greatly benefit the American farmer, especially on marginal Western
> lands, owned by a smallish nonvocal constituency that would never vote for the
> liberals anyway. They don't "want" to hurt these guys really, but there is an
> unobvious repurcussion: cheaper land prices in oil country for their friends and
> supporters to gobble up. The major controllable cost of oil production these
> days is not exploration or production but land acquisition. That is why they are
> so focused on getting Federal land like the Alaska wildlife refuge, etc. Give
> Bush another term and it will be Yellowstone. And don't forget... those
> marginalized farmers would make more money as deep drillers anyway (just
> ask Bruce Willis).
>
> But an even cheaper hydrogen economy solution than Biomass (potentially)
> comes from the technology of Melis Energy and a few other startup
> comapanies and their collaborators at the National Renewable Energy
> Laboratory (NREL).
>
> Dr. Tasios Melis has uncovered a truly remarkable metabolic process by which
> plain old green algae (suitably modified) is stimulated to produce significant
> amounts of hydrogen, instead of oxygen, during photosynthesis. "I guess it's the
> equivalent of striking oil," said the UC Berkeley biology professor. "It was
> enormously exciting, it was unbelievable." The story of this discovery was
> published in The San Francisco Chronicle on Jan 29, 2000.
>
> Melis is a top priority on the Bush/Cheney hit list.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jones Beene
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  9 18:25:47 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Nemesis: The Death Star
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 21:28:11 -0700
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On Saturday 09 June 2001 07:32, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
> Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> ***{Several days ago I attempted to elicit some comments
> from this group concerning Dr. Richard Muller's theory
> that Sol (the sun) is in an elliptical orbit with a hidden
> companion star, probably a red dwarf, which he calls "Nemesis."
> 
> .... He posits the existence of such a star in an attempt to
> explain the paleontological data of Raup and Sepkoski,
> which show that the last ten mass extinctions on Earth had
> a periodicity of, very roughly, 26 million years.
> 
> .... For those who would like to read a summary of Dr.  Muller's
> theory, please check out http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/lbl-nem.htm.
> 
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> .... The theory that the cycle is caused by the periodic passing
> of the Sun through the galactic plane every 60 million
> years was put forth by Michael Rampino and Richard Stothers
> of the Goddard Institute for Space Studys in New York City.
> 
> Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> ***{Thanks for the info. I was unaware that Rampino and
> Stothers had a horse in the race. From your description,
> though, I must say I don't see how their idea could work.
> 
> .... Another stellar mass--Nemesis--is required to
> pass near Sol, if the Oort cloud is to be perturbed. Merely
> passing through the midplane won't do it.
> 
> Matthew Rogers wrote:
> 
> .... Occam's Razor postulates that you do not need the
> Nemesis star.
> 
> Your theory misses out the relevant facts that the galactic
> disk may also be in fact a breeding ground for much vaster
> numbers of dark cometary material.  Just the passing of
> the sun through these lanes may in fact cause the event
> you described ...
> 
> Hi Mitchell,
> 
> I went to http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/lbl-nem.htm.
> There was an interesting transformation of the paleontological
> data of Raup and Sepkoski, but I could not find the data itself.
> Please give me a web reference where I can find the data.
> 
> Most interesting to me at the above site is
> Dr. Richard Muller's related theory of ice ages.  Unfortunately
> his treatment of this subject was very brief, and no links
> or references were given.  I would appreciate any further
> information on this topic.
> 
> Thanks, Jack Smith


this would mean any exploration to another star, even the
nearest one, would require a relatively slow journey to pick
our way through and chart the space to it.  Any warp travel
could be hazardous unless the nature of the warp would
give some protection to its users in the way of shielding
or deflection.  We will find a way to utilize this, probably
as a by product of research conducted by CERN or others
on the fundamental nature of matter at its smallest.  Somewhere
along the line will be the acquisition of enough enabling
technologies to be able to pull it off.  
	An account of a Brazilian taken aboard a small
starship says that one of its crew told him, when asked,
that:  "One day you will figure it out!".  That tells me that
those folks had some version of the 'Star Trek Prime
Directive' as one of their rules in dealing with pre space
faring people such as us.  It and other published accounts
give a picture that seems to back this up.  I give the credence
one gives propaganda the disinformation campaign of our 
government, especially seeing that it may be involved in
the greatest coverup in history.  What a bitter irony that
most Americans care more what is under Monica Lewinski's
blue dress than what is under Area 51!
	Space is probably a dangerous place, but we
will have to go there someday.  We will probably have
to learn how to live there too, in romote starbases
with populations about that of a small city, way stations
in the void.

Lee M. Castleton
rockcast net-link.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  9 18:55:04 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 21:53:46 EDT
Subject: Any questions??
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Group,

I was asked to join this elist that I might answer questions about my 
invention, its strange properties, Micro Plasma Fusion or a better 
description of my Magnetic Vortex Theory - and no one questions me.  There 
has been nothing interesting mentioned.

If there is no reason for me to be here, simply tell me and I will depart.

Regards,
Chris Arnold

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  9 19:06:16 2001
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Any questions??
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 19:05:18 -0700
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Well, show us what you have !

We like to see lots of test data, pictures, and such. 
Then we ask you questions!

Thanks,

Matthew Rogers
Prove it..

-----Original Message-----
From: Hypercom59 aol.com [mailto:Hypercom59@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 6:54 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Any questions??

Group,

I was asked to join this elist that I might answer questions about my
invention, its strange properties, Micro Plasma Fusion or a better
description of my Magnetic Vortex Theory - and no one questions me.  There
has been nothing interesting mentioned.

If there is no reason for me to be here, simply tell me and I will depart.

Regards,
Chris Arnold

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  9 19:08:16 2001
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 19:06:43 -0700
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Thomas,

Gravity is a force not a particle. Gravity is the weakest force in the
universe. Gravity can exert its force over long distances at the speed of
light. Gravity is the only attractive force that has no known particle
associated with it.

When the particle is found that generates the field that causes gravity and
inertia ( the two are equal ) then science will unify all known forces.

Neutrinos have very little interaction with matter, however there is many of
them. If they even have a little mass, then they would have a large effect
of a source of mass on the structure of the universe, but still not have any
effect on us beings of matter.

Even the dense core of a Neutron star is essentially transparent to neutrino
’s.

Only a Black hole would have an effect on a neutrino with a 100%
probability, because of the curvature of space is less than one. Thus a
neutrino is treated like any Speed of light particle and prevented from
escapeing the event horizion. If you could create a beam of any speed of
light particle and beam it at a black hole, nothing would come out, not even
the wispy neutrino.

The worlds most sensitive Neutrino observatory in Japan detected less than
10 neutrino events from the 1986a supernova, a galaxy away, even though
trillions per square inch per second sleeted through our galaxy.

Neutrino’s may have mass, which means enough of them exert a gravitational
force, but they would be just like any other matter with gravitational
force.

So what is the property of Mass, and why would different aspects of mass
like inertial mass=gravitational mass.
That is still the unknown, and will be till we have a partical acceleration
system powerful enough, or a computing system powerful enough on existing
accelerators to detect the fields and particals that give matter mass and
gravity.

Do a search on the Higgs particle and the Higgs Field, and you will see
that.

Also consider that even though the mind may be powerful enough to visualize
physics like Stephen Hawking, your electrical fields that your brain creates
are several orders of magnitude less than what is required to influence
matter around it.

Consider, everything you do is an interaction with the strongest force in
the universe.
Matthew Rogers
Prove it..

-----Original Message-----
From: ConexTom aol.com [mailto:ConexTom@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 7:46 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com; DEACH@topica.com
Cc: tom rhfweb.com
Subject: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue

Subj: Fw: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: 6/2/01 11:41:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From:    etimes teleport.com (Bruce Meland)
To:    tom rhfweb.com
CC:    conextom aol.com

Hi Tom I believe some form of these neutrinos are the gravity particles.
Bruce


Candidate for universal gravitational glue


UPI Science News Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT TAKAYAMA, Japan, June 5 (UPI) -
Researchers say they have identifed what may be the unseen gravitational
glue
_ the so-called dark matter responsible in part for the evolution of the
universe from the moment of its birth: neutrinos. A serious candidate for
this glue, neutrinos are invisible, sub- atomic particles, created at the
time of the Big Bang, that stream through the Earth, people and everything
else unfettered. The groundbreaking discovery, announced Friday in Japan by
an international team of scientists, was that neutrinos have mass. Because
the particles fill the universe, scientists say, collectively they may have
the force to reverse its expansive course to cause the ``Big Crunch.'' So
fundamental a discovery, they said at Neutrino '98, an international physics
conference in Takayama, Japan, could help explain baffling puzzles about the
nature of matter and the formation of the universe after the Big Bang. The
discovery was the result of a two year, $100 million experiment by an
international team of scientists. Dr. John G. Learned, a University of
Hawaii
physicist and one of the lead researchers, told United Press International,
the discovery means neutrinos may account for the many gravitational forces
apparent in astronomical observations that no one has ever been able to
explain. ``This will go down as perhaps the one most important discovery in
science in the decade,'' he said Thursday. ``It means that neutrinos are
surely one of the more massive components of the universe.'' Dr. David
Casper, a University of California-Irvine physicist and another team member,
agreed, asserting the finding will help scientists understand ``how galaxies
and other large scale structures in the universe interact gravitationally.''
Until now, he said, scientists have been puzzled about the movements of the
heavens, knowing that something was missing from their calculations, and
describing the unknown variable as ``dark'' or ``missing'' matter. This
discovery, Learned said, suggests that neutrinos have an aggregate
gravitational influence that may eventually be sufficient to reverse the
universal expansion triggered by the Big Bang and cause a ``Big Crunch.''
``The discovery of neutrino mass is intimately connected with both the
origins and ultimate fate of the universe,'' Casper said. ``We suspected but
did not know that neutrinos had tiny mass. We didn't think of them as making
up a part of our world, but in fact, the universe is full of neutrinos.
Every
cubic centimeter of the universe has about 200 or so neutrinos, which are
left over from the Big Bang.'' The finding may also fill in the blanks in
equations aimed at solving how particles acquire mass, ``one of the deepest
unsolved questions of particle physics,'' Casper said. ``This will help
astronomers understand something that puzzles them greatly _ why is there
more gravitational force than they expect from the amount of stuff the can
see out there,'' Casper added. Learned says neutrinos, until now thought to
have no mass, may on the whole turn out to make up ``most of the mass of the
universe. '' The discovery was made at Super-Kamiokande Observatory, the
world's largest elementary particle detector, northwest of Tokyo. Scientists
from 23 institutions in the United States, Japan, Poland and Korea took
part.
The team included Dr. Henry Sobel, also of UC-Irvine. Neutrinos, similar to
electrons, have long been known to be a fundamental constituent of nature.
But unlike electrons, neutrinos carry no electric charge, and thus can pass
unimpeded through great distances in matter. This property, along with their
invisibility, has made them extremely difficult to observe. Scientists have
suspected for years that neutrinos might have a very small, but non-zero,
mass, but never before could prove it. Casper said the discovery won't
``change the life of the average Joe'' but has profound implications for
physicists and astrophysicsts. The finding also suggests, he said, that the
gravitational influence of neutrinos may have been a catalyst for the
collapse of the diffuse primordial gas into more dense regions that
eventually spawned galaxies, stars and planets. UC-Irvine issued a statement
on behalf of its scientists asserting that the experiment had yielded
``results that are outside the standard theory of particle physics, which
describes the fundamental constituents of matter and their interactions.
Until now, there has been no firm evidence that neutrinos possess mass.''
The
evidence was based upon studies of neutrinos created when cosmic rays
bombard
the Earth's upper atmosphere, producing storms of secndary particles that
rain down constantly from the heavens. Most neutrinos pass through the
entire
planet unscathed, but have been detected passing through the
Super-Kamiokande
group's 50,000-ton tank of purified water 1,000 meters beneath the surface.
The scientists noticed the neutrinos oscillated, or changed from one type of
neutrino to another, something that could occur only if they have mass. They
say in a joint statement that neutrinos ``must now be incorporated into the
theoretical models of the structure of matter and that astrophysicists
concerned with finding the 'missing' or 'dark matter' in the universe must
now consider the neutrino as a serious candidate.'' Neutrinos were created
in
vast quantities in the first instants after the Big Bang and permeate the
universe, Casper said. ``Because these leftover neutrinos are everywhere,
even if they have a tiny mass, when you add them up, it adds up to something
significant in terms of how galaxies and large scale structures in the
universe gravitationally interact,'' Casper said. ``You have a zillion
things
which by themselves have almost no mass, but when you add them all up, they
can have a large scale. This may now guide theorists in answering the big
question _ why does everything have mass?'' Learned said, ``this is
fundamental science on the most basic scale,'' and its practical
applications
might not become evident for many years. Copyright 1998 by United Press
International All rights reserved

Respectively,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
RHF Business web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Media Productions at
http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Email: tom rhfweb.com <mailto:tom@rhfweb.com>

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Th=
omas, <o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Gr=
avity is
a force not a particle. Gravity is the weakest force in the universe. =
Gravity
can exert its force over long distances at the speed of light. Gravity =
is the
only attractive force that has no known particle associated with it. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Wh=
en the
particle is found that generates the field that causes gravity and =
inertia (
the two are equal ) then science will unify all known =
forces.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Ne=
utrinos
have very little interaction with matter, however there is many of them. =
If they
even have a little mass, then they would have a large effect of a source =
of
mass on the structure of the universe, but still not have any effect on =
us
beings of matter.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Ev=
en the
dense core of a Neutron star is essentially transparent to =
neutrino&#8217;s.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>On=
ly a
Black hole would have an effect on a neutrino with a 100% probability, =
because
of the curvature of space is less than one. Thus a neutrino is treated =
like any
Speed of light particle and prevented from escapeing the event horizion. =
If you
could create a beam of any speed of light particle and beam it at a =
black hole,
nothing would come out, not even the wispy =
neutrino.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Th=
e worlds
most sensitive Neutrino observatory in Japan detected less than 10 =
neutrino
events from the 1986a supernova, a galaxy away, even though trillions =
per
square inch per second sleeted through our =
galaxy.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Ne=
utrino&#8217;s
may have mass, which means enough of them exert a gravitational force, =
but they
would be just like any other matter with gravitational =
force.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>So=
 what is
the property of Mass, and why would different aspects of mass like =
inertial
mass=3Dgravitational mass.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Th=
at is
still the unknown, and will be till we have a partical acceleration =
system
powerful enough, or a computing system powerful enough on existing =
accelerators
to detect the fields and particals that give matter mass and =
gravity.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Do=
 a
search on the Higgs particle and the Higgs Field, and you will see =
that.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Al=
so
consider that even though the mind may be powerful enough to visualize =
physics
like Stephen Hawking, your electrical fields that your brain creates are
several orders of magnitude less than what is required to influence =
matter
around it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Co=
nsider,
everything you do is an interaction with the strongest force in the =
universe.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><!--[if supportFields]><span =
class=3DEmailStyle18><font=20
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-element:field-begin'></span><span=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</span>AUTOTEXTLIST \s &quot;E-mail=20
Signature&quot; <span =
style=3D'mso-element:field-separator'></span></span></font></span><![endi=
f]--><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'>Matthew =
Rogers</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Prove it..</span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><!--[if supportFields]><span =
class=3DEmailStyle18><font=20
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-element:field-end'></span></span></font></span><![endif]--><=
span
class=3DEmailStyle18><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> ConexTom aol.com
[mailto:ConexTom aol.com]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 02, =
2001 7:46
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> vortex-l eskimo.com; =
DEACH topica.com<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> tom rhfweb.com<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Fwd: Candidate =
for
universal gravitational glue</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Subj: <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Fw: Candidate for universal gravitational =
glue</span></b>
<br>
Date: 6/2/01 11:41:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time <br>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>From:&nbsp; &nbsp; =
etimes teleport.com
(Bruce Meland) <br>
To:&nbsp; &nbsp; tom rhfweb.com <br>
CC:&nbsp; &nbsp; conextom aol.com <br>
</span></i><br>
Hi Tom I believe some form of these neutrinos are the gravity particles. =
Bruce <br>
</span></font><font color=3Dblack face=3DArial FAMILY=3DSANSSERIF><span
style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial =
FAMILY=3DSANSSERIF><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><br>
</span></font><b><font size=3D6 color=3Dblack face=3DArial =
FAMILY=3DSANSSERIF><span
style=3D'font-size:24.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'=
>Candidate
for universal gravitational glue <br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font></b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial =
FAMILY=3DSANSSERIF><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>UPI Science =
News
Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT TAKAYAMA, Japan, June 5 (UPI) - <br>
Researchers say they have identifed what may be the unseen gravitational =
glue <br>
_ the so-called dark matter responsible in part for the evolution of the =
<br>
universe from the moment of its birth: neutrinos. A serious candidate =
for <br>
this glue, neutrinos are invisible, sub- atomic particles, created at =
the <br>
time of the Big Bang, that stream through the Earth, people and =
everything <br>
else unfettered. The groundbreaking discovery, announced Friday in Japan =
by <br>
an international team of scientists, was that neutrinos have mass. =
Because <br>
the particles fill the universe, scientists say, collectively they may =
have <br>
the force to reverse its expansive course to cause the ``Big Crunch.'' =
So <br>
fundamental a discovery, they said at Neutrino '98, an international =
physics <br>
conference in Takayama, Japan, could help explain baffling puzzles about =
the <br>
nature of matter and the formation of the universe after the Big Bang. =
The <br>
discovery was the result of a two year, $100 million experiment by an =
<br>
international team of scientists. Dr. John G. Learned, a University of =
Hawaii <br>
physicist and one of the lead researchers, told United Press =
International, <br>
the discovery means neutrinos may account for the many gravitational =
forces <br>
apparent in astronomical observations that no one has ever been able to =
<br>
explain. ``This will go down as perhaps the one most important discovery =
in <br>
science in the decade,'' he said Thursday. ``It means that neutrinos are =
<br>
surely one of the more massive components of the universe.'' Dr. David =
<br>
Casper, a University of California-Irvine physicist and another team =
member, <br>
agreed, asserting the finding will help scientists understand ``how =
galaxies <br>
and other large scale structures in the universe interact =
gravitationally.'' <br>
Until now, he said, scientists have been puzzled about the movements of =
the <br>
heavens, knowing that something was missing from their calculations, and =
<br>
describing the unknown variable as ``dark'' or ``missing'' matter. This =
<br>
discovery, Learned said, suggests that neutrinos have an aggregate <br>
gravitational influence that may eventually be sufficient to reverse the =
<br>
universal expansion triggered by the Big Bang and cause a ``Big =
Crunch.'' <br>
``The discovery of neutrino mass is intimately connected with both the =
<br>
origins and ultimate fate of the universe,'' Casper said. ``We suspected =
but <br>
did not know that neutrinos had tiny mass. We didn't think of them as =
making <br>
up a part of our world, but in fact, the universe is full of neutrinos. =
Every <br>
cubic centimeter of the universe has about 200 or so neutrinos, which =
are <br>
left over from the Big Bang.'' The finding may also fill in the blanks =
in <br>
equations aimed at solving how particles acquire mass, ``one of the =
deepest <br>
unsolved questions of particle physics,'' Casper said. ``This will help =
<br>
astronomers understand something that puzzles them greatly _ why is =
there <br>
more gravitational force than they expect from the amount of stuff the =
can <br>
see out there,'' Casper added. Learned says neutrinos, until now thought =
to <br>
have no mass, may on the whole turn out to make up ``most of the mass of =
the <br>
universe. '' The discovery was made at Super-Kamiokande Observatory, the =
<br>
world's largest elementary particle detector, northwest of Tokyo. =
Scientists <br>
from 23 institutions in the United States, Japan, Poland and Korea took =
part. <br>
The team included Dr. Henry Sobel, also of UC-Irvine. Neutrinos, similar =
to <br>
electrons, have long been known to be a fundamental constituent of =
nature. <br>
But unlike electrons, neutrinos carry no electric charge, and thus can =
pass <br>
unimpeded through great distances in matter. This property, along with =
their <br>
invisibility, has made them extremely difficult to observe. Scientists =
have <br>
suspected for years that neutrinos might have a very small, but =
non-zero, <br>
mass, but never before could prove it. Casper said the discovery won't =
<br>
``change the life of the average Joe'' but has profound implications for =
<br>
physicists and astrophysicsts. The finding also suggests, he said, that =
the <br>
gravitational influence of neutrinos may have been a catalyst for the =
<br>
collapse of the diffuse primordial gas into more dense regions that <br>
eventually spawned galaxies, stars and planets. UC-Irvine issued a =
statement <br>
on behalf of its scientists asserting that the experiment had yielded =
<br>
``results that are outside the standard theory of particle physics, =
which <br>
describes the fundamental constituents of matter and their interactions. =
<br>
Until now, there has been no firm evidence that neutrinos possess =
mass.'' The <br>
evidence was based upon studies of neutrinos created when cosmic rays =
bombard <br>
the Earth's upper atmosphere, producing storms of secndary particles =
that <br>
rain down constantly from the heavens. Most neutrinos pass through the =
entire <br>
planet unscathed, but have been detected passing through the =
Super-Kamiokande <br>
group's 50,000-ton tank of purified water 1,000 meters beneath the =
surface. <br>
The scientists noticed the neutrinos oscillated, or changed from one =
type of <br>
neutrino to another, something that could occur only if they have mass. =
They <br>
say in a joint statement that neutrinos ``must now be incorporated into =
the <br>
theoretical models of the structure of matter and that astrophysicists =
<br>
concerned with finding the 'missing' or 'dark matter' in the universe =
must <br>
now consider the neutrino as a serious candidate.'' Neutrinos were =
created in <br>
vast quantities in the first instants after the Big Bang and permeate =
the <br>
universe, Casper said. ``Because these leftover neutrinos are =
everywhere, <br>
even if they have a tiny mass, when you add them up, it adds up to =
something <br>
significant in terms of how galaxies and large scale structures in the =
<br>
universe gravitationally interact,'' Casper said. ``You have a zillion =
things <br>
which by themselves have almost no mass, but when you add them all up, =
they <br>
can have a large scale. This may now guide theorists in answering the =
big <br>
question _ why does everything have mass?'' Learned said, ``this is <br>
fundamental science on the most basic scale,'' and its practical =
applications <br>
might not become evident for many years. Copyright 1998 by United Press =
<br>
International All rights reserved <br>
</span></font><font color=3Dblack face=3DArial FAMILY=3DSANSSERIF><span
style=3D'font-family:Arial;color:black'><br>
Respectively, <br>
<br>
President, Thomas Clark <br>
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc., <br>
RHF Business web site at: <a =
href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/">http://www.rhfweb.com/</a>
<br>
Personal website at <a =
href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">http://www.rhfweb.com/personal</a=
>
<br>
New Age Media Productions at <br>
<a =
href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage">http://www.rhfweb.com/newage</a> =
<br>
Email: <a href=3D"mailto:tom rhfweb.com">tom@rhfweb.com</a> =
</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  9 20:09:06 2001
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 http://nist.time.gov/timezone.cgi?Mountain/d/-7/java

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  9 21:06:41 2001
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Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 23:08:39 -0500
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At 09:05 PM 6/9/01 -0500, you wrote:


>  http://nist.time.gov/timezone.cgi?Mountain/d/-7/java
Cool... but I just use the one they set this one with

http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/anim

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 02:06:02 2001
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Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
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According to some very astute calculations a Mercury Arc Discharge( Cesium or Xenon
will work too) can work as a space drive without expelling any propellant.

This comes about because the slow moving heavy positive ion, M+, striking the cathode
have as much as 600 times
the momentum as the stripped electron, e- striking the anode:

mv = m(2Vq/m)^1/2

With about 20 volts   750 amperes (15 Kwe) 4.45 newtons (1.0 lb) of thrust can be
obtained.

OTOH, I won't believe it until I see it fly.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

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Just in case experiment for unsure skeptics:

Use two ~1/4 inch diameter tungsten welding rods tightly inserted in a quartz or
ceramic tube (~1.0 mm gap) with a small drop of Hg or Cs contacting them in the gap ,
so that the drop vaporizes when the voltage (24 volts D.C.) is applied with the
negative side up.

If it levitates...  :-)

Regards,   Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 07:07:06 2001
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Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 07:04:45 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Any questions??
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Hi Chris,

I looked at the patent application that you have cited on you web page but 
found it difficult to envision what is going on.

Could you please explain how the device operates and particularly how the 
rotating element fits into the scheme. 

Is the principal of operation the plasma focus? Does the sphere provice a 
convergence zone.

Thanks in advance,

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 08:13:52 2001
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Hi Chris,
I would be very pleased to be astonished by your invention MICRO PLASMA
FUSION.
Could you send us more details, views of your apparatus, schemes ... and ,
of course, your first experimental results.
Thanks in advance
So long                    PPC


----- Original Message -----
From: <Hypercom59 aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 3:53 AM
Subject: Any questions??



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 10:51:00 2001
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Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:50:52 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Re: A parable for Bruce Meland
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Friday evening

To whom ever posted this;

>>Many moons ago, I had the experience of working with a Born
>>Again Christian. You know the type. Anyway, he kept trying
>>to convert the heathens in the office to the one true faith.
>>One day, the following exchange took place.

In answer to your question. We have to share our faith so that 
everyone has the opportunity to make a decision. Why? Well then time 
as we know it will end, and the earth can be cleansed of sin, by 
being melted with fire.

I've made my decision. I want to be on the winning side, and I'm 
betting that I am. Wishing all my fellow Vortexians a Shabbot Shalom, 
Sabbath day peace.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 10:51:02 2001
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Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:50:52 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: RE: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>RE: Candidate for universal gravitational
glue</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000080">Thomas,</font><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000080">&nbsp;</font><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000080">Gravity is a force not a particle.</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Hum, did you see my posting on the Gravitron conference? They
seem to think that gravity is manifested in the form of a
particle.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000080">When the particle is found that generates the field
that causes gravity and inertia ( the two are equal ) then science
will unify all known forces.</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>I assume that is what the Japanese researchers who are sponsoring
the conference have in mind.</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000080">Neutrinos have very little interaction with matter,
however there is many of them. If they even have a little mass, then
they would have a large effect of a source of mass on the structure of
the universe, but still not have any effect on us beings of
matter.</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>The question is how can matter have an effect on neutrions? If
they could be captured and changed into energy,</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000080">&nbsp;</font><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000080">The worlds most sensitive Neutrino observatory in
Japan detected less than 10 neutrino events from the 1986a supernova,
a galaxy away, even though trillions per square inch per second
sleeted through our galaxy.</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>How do you know there are trillions? if you can't detect
them?</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000080">&nbsp;</font><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000080">Neutrino's may have mass, which means enough of them
exert a gravitational force, but they would be just like any other
matter with gravitational force.</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>considering your previous writing, this would seeem to be
contradictory</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000080">Do a search on the Higgs particle and the Higgs Field,
and you will see that.</font><br>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>The last I heard, they were still looking for the Higgs Boson,
did I miss something?</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000080">&nbsp;</font><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"
color="#000080">Also consider that even though the mind may be
powerful enough to visualize physics like Stephen Hawking, your
electrical fields that your brain creates are several orders of
magnitude less than what is required to influence matter around
it.</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Have you ever heard of spoon bending? I'd say that this is a
classic example of theory conflicting with observed fact.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial"
color="#000000"><br></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial"
color="#000000">Email:</font> <a href="mailto:tom rhfweb.com"><font
face="Arial" color="#000000">tom rhfweb.com</font></a></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 10:51:12 2001
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Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:50:52 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Any questions??
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>Group,
>
>I was asked to join this elist that I might answer questions about my
>invention, its strange properties, Micro Plasma Fusion or a better
>description of my Magnetic Vortex Theory -

I'm interested in your results. Have you read Ken Shoulders' electron 
macrocluster patents? How are you generating these magnetic vortexes?

>and no one questions me.

Did you notice my posting on the curl free magnetic potential vector? 
I'm still looking for an explanation of this wave. I believe that 
this is the same wave generated by Ahronhoff and Bohm in their 
experiment, see Physical Review 1959. This wave is also described in 
the patents of Gelinas, and in Hal Puthoff's patent.

>
>Chris Arnold

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 10:59:13 2001
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Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:56:16 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
Resent-Message-ID: <"KAs-3.0.L-4.ILx8x" mx1>
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>According to some very astute calculations a Mercury Arc Discharge( Cesium
>or Xenon
>will work too) can work as a space drive without expelling any propellant.
>
>This comes about because the slow moving heavy positive ion, M+, striking
>the cathode
>have as much as 600 times
>the momentum as the stripped electron, e- striking the anode:
>
>mv = m(2Vq/m)^1/2
>
>With about 20 volts   750 amperes (15 Kwe) 4.45 newtons (1.0 lb) of thrust
>can be
>obtained.

***{In order for the positive ion to acquire that momentum, it must first
be repelled away from the anode and then attracted to the cathode--which
means: for every increment to the momentum of the positive ion, the anode
and/or cathode must acquire equal momentum in the opposite direction.
Result: there is no net change in the momentum of the system. --MJ}***

>OTOH, I won't believe it until I see it fly.  :-)
>
>Regards,   Frederick

________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

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Subject: Bill Beaty?
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I think Charlie Ford's point is of high importance here - is everything OK
with our venerable benefactor and guru, Bill B?


NR

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Some relevant arc info.  Note Hazard of Thoriated Tungsten Welding Rods.    FJS

 http://www.liquidarc.com.au/gtaw/html/electrodSection_2fundamentals.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 12:27:56 2001
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Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mitchell Jones" <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?

Mitchell Jones wrote:

> Frederick Sparber wrote:

> >According to some very astute calculations a Mercury Arc Discharge( Cesium
> >or Xenon
> >will work too) can work as a space drive without expelling any propellant.
> >
> >This comes about because the slow moving heavy positive ion, M+, striking
> >the cathode
> >have as much as 600 times
> >the momentum as the stripped electron, e- striking the anode:
> >
> >mv = m(2Vq/m)^1/2
> >
> >With about 20 volts   750 amperes (15 Kwe) 4.45 newtons (1.0 lb) of thrust
> >can be
> >obtained.
>
> ***{In order for the positive ion to acquire that momentum, it must first
> be repelled away from the anode and then attracted to the cathode--which
> means: for every increment to the momentum of the positive ion, the anode
> and/or cathode must acquire equal momentum in the opposite direction.
> Result: there is no net change in the momentum of the system. --MJ}***

That is the intuitive take, but sometime past I was informed of a "Cathode Drag
Effect" in an electrical discharge.

Time to check it out.

IOW the arc discharge produces a reflecion of the impacting ion (possibly neutralized
at the cathode surface)
thus a net force on the cathode.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> >OTOH, I won't believe it until I see it fly.  :-)
> >
> >Regards,   Frederick
>
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
>
> "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
> be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 14:15:40 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 17:12:52 EDT
Subject: Re: Any questions??
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Thomas Malloy writes,

<Have you read Ken Shoulders' electron 
macrocluster patents?>
I am very familiar with electrons and Kens work.
Under site link 8, I explain why Ken gets his unexplained EV "hole" phenomena 
in the foil target.

<How are you generating these magnetic vortexes?>

The vortex is created by the electrons, not me or you.
The magnetic vortex is the form that magnetism takes upon its creation.
Under site link 5, "Magnetism can be understood" I clearly define how the 
vortex is created and that it is this vortex energy that is responsible for 
magnetism. 

<Did you notice my posting on the curl free magnetic potential vector?>

I have no idea what wave you are referring to - I know basically 2 things, my 
device and magnetism (which is not a wave).  Magnetism is not curl free, so I 
cant help you.

Chris

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 16:15:49 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
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Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 19:19:45 -0700
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On Sunday 10 June 2001 10:56, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >According to some very astute calculations a Mercury Arc Discharge( Cesium
> >or Xenon
> >will work too) can work as a space drive without expelling any propellant.
> >
> >This comes about because the slow moving heavy positive ion, M+, striking
> >the cathode
> >have as much as 600 times
> >the momentum as the stripped electron, e- striking the anode:
> >
> >mv = m(2Vq/m)^1/2
> >
> >With about 20 volts   750 amperes (15 Kwe) 4.45 newtons (1.0 lb) of thrust
> >can be
> >obtained.
> 
> ***{In order for the positive ion to acquire that momentum, it must first
> be repelled away from the anode and then attracted to the cathode--which
> means: for every increment to the momentum of the positive ion, the anode
> and/or cathode must acquire equal momentum in the opposite direction.
> Result: there is no net change in the momentum of the system. --MJ}***
> 

Hold it McGee, not so fast!  Electrical forces are causing the momentum
changes, so the system is trading electrical energy for mechanical
energy.  The accelerating force mechanical probably stands.
    Standing Bear

ps  now the real trouble seems to be efficiency.  700amps at 24 volts is
an awful lot of power to spend for one steeeenkin pound of thrust.  Personally
I would rather see the energy spent on ionic drives.  You can collect
the ions in interplanetary space with a large enough collector and enough
speed..
Bear with me

> >OTOH, I won't believe it until I see it fly.  :-)
> >
> >Regards,   Frederick
> 
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
> 
> "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
> be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 18:05:55 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Standing Bear. Please note that these Ion Drive units
require ~ 28 Kwe/newton thrust or ~124 Kwe/lb thrust.

601   18 millinewton thrust,  500 watts
702   165 millinewton thrust  4,500 watts

At 30 km/sec the Xe ions are going through ~ 620 volts accelerating potential, thus
the 601 is working at ~ 0.8 ampere (~1.1E-6 kg/sec of Xe plus losses) or ~ 0.1 kg/day
of Xe plus losses.

 http://www.hsc.com/factsheets/xips/xips.html

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 20:04:12 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Bill Beaty?
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:09:22 -0400
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Hi.

I'd guess he's down in Dallas partying with the Keelynet
crew. He's about due for a vacation... If folks are really
concerned they should email Jerry Decker and ask, likely
he's sipping margaritas by the pool and contemplating the
benefits of his new found single-hood. Those southern girls
can be very charming.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Reiter [mailto:reit ezworks.net]
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 2:42 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Bill Beaty?



I think Charlie Ford's point is of high importance here - is everything OK
with our venerable benefactor and guru, Bill B?


NR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 21:45:15 2001
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Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Re: A parable for Bruce Meland
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:49:48 -0400
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Hi Tom.

Yeah, but a few billion of us actually LIKE living here,
and don't really want to see the whole thing go up in flames.
So please, if you guys get close to success, tell me so
we can get off the planet before ya melt it. 

Life is good. Enjoy it. If you're looking for some great
message from the Creator, well, that's it.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 1:51 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Re: A parable for Bruce Meland


Friday evening

To whom ever posted this;

>>Many moons ago, I had the experience of working with a Born
>>Again Christian. You know the type. Anyway, he kept trying
>>to convert the heathens in the office to the one true faith.
>>One day, the following exchange took place.

In answer to your question. We have to share our faith so that 
everyone has the opportunity to make a decision. Why? Well then time 
as we know it will end, and the earth can be cleansed of sin, by 
being melted with fire.

I've made my decision. I want to be on the winning side, and I'm 
betting that I am. Wishing all my fellow Vortexians a Shabbot Shalom, 
Sabbath day peace.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 10 21:45:22 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:49:42 -0400
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Hi Fred.

OK, I've done my share of experimenting with mercury
ignitrons. Is this something like what you have in mind?
I'll say, when you push a 1000 amps or so thru one
they make quite a pop, but I haven't seen one take
off yet. Any suggestions for testing here? I happen to
have one with all the driver circuitry set up, so
go ahead...

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 5:47 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?


Just in case experiment for unsure skeptics:

Use two ~1/4 inch diameter tungsten welding rods tightly inserted in a
quartz or
ceramic tube (~1.0 mm gap) with a small drop of Hg or Cs contacting them in
the gap ,
so that the drop vaporizes when the voltage (24 volts D.C.) is applied with
the
negative side up.

If it levitates...  :-)

Regards,   Frederick



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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 11:49 PM
Subject: RE: Mercury Arc Space Drive?

Hi Keith.
If you can get one to take off with the cathode down, that
would really be something!   :-)

Frederick


> Hi Fred.
> 
> OK, I've done my share of experimenting with mercury
> ignitrons. Is this something like what you have in mind?
> I'll say, when you push a 1000 amps or so thru one
> they make quite a pop, but I haven't seen one take
> off yet. Any suggestions for testing here? I happen to
> have one with all the driver circuitry set up, so
> go ahead...
> 
> K.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 5:47 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net
> Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
> 
> 
> Just in case experiment for unsure skeptics:
> 
> Use two ~1/4 inch diameter tungsten welding rods tightly inserted in a
> quartz or
> ceramic tube (~1.0 mm gap) with a small drop of Hg or Cs contacting them in
> the gap ,
> so that the drop vaporizes when the voltage (24 volts D.C.) is applied with
> the
> negative side up.
> 
> If it levitates...  :-)
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 07:50:35 2001
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Message-ID: <3B24DA92.CCE58B4D bellsouth.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:49:54 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Gnorts, Vorts,

It is interesting to compare Chris Hardeman's antigravity device
at:

http://www.icnet.net/users/chrish/Test.htm

to George Adamski's most famous UFO photo at:

http://www.ufobbs.com/pics1/adamski3.html

Thoses spheres have just gotta be a coincidence, eh?

Terry

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Frederick Sparber wrote:

 > No one is suggesting that automobile hydrogen fuel should be produced by
> > present-day chemical methods. All studies advocate deriving hydrogen from
> > solar or wind power. There is more than enough wind power to accomplish 
> this.
>
>At what cost Jed? It takes 25 Kw-Hr  per pound of Hydrogen produced.   At 
>$.10/ kw-hr
>and 55,000 btu/lb
>heat of combustion for H2 you are getting close to $2.50
>for the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline or diesel.

Cost is the problem, but I do not think it is as high as you estimate. I 
have a dated but detailed and authoritative source here: "Hydrogen Program 
Plan, FY 1993 - 1997," DoE, NREL, published 1993. This does not include 
estimates for wind power, which has become much more cost effective than 
people predicted in 1992. Anyway, p. 23 shows the efficiency, capital cost 
and emissions for a variety of systems, both conventional and hydrogen. It 
is a little difficult to compare cost per gallon equivalent, because the 
main expense is for capital equipment, and it is hard to say how long the 
equipment lasts. A "direct solar to hydrogen" facility that costs $21,100 
per kWh is more expensive than a fossil fuel plant at $3,200 per kWh, but 
it might last much longer, and of course there is no fuel cost over the 
life of the plant.

Some examples:

CURRENT TECHNOLOGY

Crude oil to gasoline ICE (what we have now)
9.5 units of input energy for each unit of propulsion energy delivered
8.5 thousand dollars per kilowatt capital cost
2.4 kg CO2/kWh
4.2 grams NOx/kWh

Photovoltaics to hydrogen
25.9 units input energy
71.4 thousand dollars/kWh
(no pollution)

Fossil fuels, electricity, battery electric car
5.1 units input energy
3.2 thousand dollars/kWh -- seems high, but they include distribution 
network cost
1.6 kg CO2/kWh
4.4 g NOx/kWh
11.8 g SO2/kWh

Natural Gas
11.2 units input energy
0.5 thousand dollars/kWh
1.3 kg CO2/kWh
4.0 g NOx/kWh


ADVANCED

Coal gasification
6.3 units input energy
4.0 thousand dollars/kWh
1.8 kg CO2/kWh
3.6 g NOx/kWh

Direct solar
4.1 units input energy
21.1 thousand dollars/kWh
(no pollution)

Biomass to hydrogen
6.8 units input energy
4.4 thousand dollars/kWh
(no pollution listed - but I think there is some.)

As of 1992, fossil fuel for electric cars was the most efficient and least 
polluting method of transportation listed here. (Nuclear or hydro power => 
electric car is not shown.) Anyway, based on the current cost of fossil 
fuel generators versus wind farms in Montana, I estimate CURRENT technology 
(in 2001) would look like this:

Wind to hydrogen
?? units input energy (but it makes no difference)
6.4 thousand dollars/kWh
(no pollution)

I am not sure how much it would cost to send the hydrogen gas from Montana 
to California, but I do not think it would be excessively expensive. It may 
not make economic sense to send it to the east coast. In many states, with 
a large number of vehicles, such as Texas and Iowa, the gas would be pumped 
only short distances, or no distance at all.


>Even if you commited all of the hydro and nuclear to hydrogen production 
>you couldn't come close to meeting the demand.

You could not today, but the idea would be to gradually increase power 
generation and on-site electrolysis, which you phase out oil and coal 
production.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 08:59:41 2001
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Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:58:57 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Hyrogen fuel economics - minor correction
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I wrote:

Biomass to hydrogen
6.8 units input energy
4.4 thousand dollars/kWh
(no pollution listed - but I think there is some.)

Ah, I see. They show some pollution with "Biomass to ethanol" but none with 
"Biomass to hydrogen." That's reasonable.


I said, "In many states, with a large number of vehicles, such as Texas and 
Iowa, the gas would be pumped only short distances, or no distance at all." 
I mean they could set up a 1.5 or 2.0 MW windmill in or near a population 
center, generate the gas, and store it on-site. Automobiles could gas up 
under the windmills. This could be no more dangerous than today's gas stations.

I said, "the idea would be to gradually increase power generation and 
on-site electrolysis, which you phase out oil and coal production." Meant 
to say: "while you phase out oil and coal." Coal would be phased out when 
hydrogen production increased enough to generate electricity at remote 
sites with fuel cells. This fixes the problem with intermittent wind or 
solar, by the way.

- Jed

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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
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Jed Obviously you are not in the loop and have not been following the
technology for as long as I have.  I can then understand why in your minds
eye they don't exist. Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; vortex-l@eskimo.com
<vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Raids and helicopters prove nothing


>Bruce Meland wrote:
>
>>  Jed I amd not berating the cold fusion researchers accomplishments but
>> if one has a solid state device that converts cosmic energy  directly to
>> electricity, it is a slam dunk and won't take years and millions of
>> dollars for pilot plants.
>
>That's correct, I am sure. No one disputes that if you had such a device
>the rest would follow. However, as far as I know, nobody has such a device,
>it is physically impossible to make one. You have not given us any reason
>to believe such a machine exists. So there is no point in speculating about
>what it might do, or what it would be good for. If I had a machine that
>could convert lead into gold, or a machine that could predict the outcome
>of the Georgia Lottery, I would be fabulously rich, but I do not, and I am
>not, so why speculate about it?
>
>
>>The technology is just too  revolutionary   and risks  energy stock
>>portfolios of the high and mighty.
>
>That's nonsense. Throughout history, countless revolutionary technologies
>have destroyed the stock portfolios of the high and mighty. The most recent
>example is the microcomputer, which nearly destroyed IBM, and which wiped
>out most mainframe and minicomputer companies. Starting in 1900,
>automobiles and later airplanes destroyed U.S. railroad passenger
>transport, even though the railroads were the most wealthy, politically
>powerful, influential, and most feared industry in the world. In 1900
>upstart entrepreneurs like Henry Ford had far less legal protection against
>heavy handed, unfair competition than Bill Gates had in 1980, but it did
>not stop him from destroying the biggest industry on earth.
>
>If I had the technology you describe, I would soon be richer than Bill
>Gates, and nothing -- no corporation, government or Black Helicopters --
>could stop me, except by killing me.
>
>
>>  Just recently Judge Sandra OConor(sp?)
>>could not rule on a  energy case because she owned stock in the company.
>
>The name is Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. You can find that
>name with the correct spelling on the Internet in less than two seconds
>with a search program Google.com or www.alltheweb.com. Since you are the
>editor of Electrifying Times, I suggest you learn to use these search tools
>to pin down names and facts.
>
>
>>Also perhaps these divices operate at such high frequencies only black
>>budget technology can detect their operation and  hence exercise control
>
>Black budget technology cannot prevent spies in the CIA and the FBI from
>selling out and betraying our agents and secret codes. Black budget
>agencies such the CIA are so inept they did not predict the fall of the
>Soviet Union, or make any arrangements for it. Their high-level million
>dollar analyses of Japanese politics, language and culture are a joke.
>These reports would be given a failing grade in undergraduate Asian Studies
>at any university in the world. They are as ridiculous as the portrayal of
>the Imperial Japanese Navy general staff in the movie "Pearl Harbor," which
>seems to be based on the wild fantasies of some 13-year-old kid, and which
>are played by people who cannot even speak Japanese. (For a reasonably
>accurate portrayal of the IJN, see the movie "Tora Tora Tora.")
>
>The U.S. Federal agencies are so ignorant of basic science, they do not
>even understand that cold fusion is real. The high level government people
>I have spoken with are so ignorant, they would not recognize a
>revolutionary technology if it bit them on the butt. There is not the
>slightest chance they have machines that can "detect" the "frequencies" of
>energy producing machine, and furthermore that statement has no scientific
>or technical meaning. It is nonsense, fantasy and blather. Frankly, all of
>your messages seem to be concocted of such blather, so I think I will add
>you to my short list of people who are automatically deleted.
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 09:48:39 2001
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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References: <3B24DA92.CCE58B4D bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Aquino info on Anti Gravity - Meland
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Blanton" <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 9:49 AM
Subject: Aquino info on Anti Gravity - Meland

Thanks Terry.

 Those three spherical Cavity Resonators allow the EM wave to circle in them very
close to the
speed of light, c which mimics the wave circles (quarks)
in an atom setting up circling charge, Q = CV.

Should work just fine with the right mode that will allow
relativistic coupling with the Earth's Gravity Field.

Working with a fellow vortexian we tried large 1/4 inch
copper tubing "hoops" fed with various pulse shapes up to 24 Mhz, but this doesn't get
close enough to c to synchronize with the Gravity field which is so close to c that
the dilation Gamma is ~ 6.0 x 10^18 and the 137*c
phase velocity.

With clean Vacuum Resonant Cavities you should get there.

Regards,  Frederick


> Gnorts, Vorts,
>
> It is interesting to compare Chris Hardeman's antigravity device
> at:
>
> http://www.icnet.net/users/chrish/Test.htm
>
> to George Adamski's most famous UFO photo at:
>
> http://www.ufobbs.com/pics1/adamski3.html
>
> Thoses spheres have just gotta be a coincidence, eh?
>
> Terry
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 09:50:57 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:55:03 -0400
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I presume you're pulling my leg here, but
as we both know the cathode has to be down due
to the mercury pool, wouldn't I expect a
weight gain?

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 6:47 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?



----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 11:49 PM
Subject: RE: Mercury Arc Space Drive?

Hi Keith.
If you can get one to take off with the cathode down, that
would really be something!   :-)

Frederick


> Hi Fred.
>
> OK, I've done my share of experimenting with mercury
> ignitrons. Is this something like what you have in mind?
> I'll say, when you push a 1000 amps or so thru one
> they make quite a pop, but I haven't seen one take
> off yet. Any suggestions for testing here? I happen to
> have one with all the driver circuitry set up, so
> go ahead...
>
> K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 5:47 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net
> Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
>
>
> Just in case experiment for unsure skeptics:
>
> Use two ~1/4 inch diameter tungsten welding rods tightly inserted in a
> quartz or
> ceramic tube (~1.0 mm gap) with a small drop of Hg or Cs contacting them
in
> the gap ,
> so that the drop vaporizes when the voltage (24 volts D.C.) is applied
with
> the
> negative side up.
>
> If it levitates...  :-)
>
> Regards,   Frederick
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 10:21:34 2001
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Subject: Chapter from the weird history of free energy...
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:26:21 -0400
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Hi All.

For those of us inclined to study the past in
some vain attempt to understand this odd phenomena
of fringe energy research, this chapter has to be
one of the strangest.

Back in the twenties, Alfred Hubbard was credited
with the development of an atomic battery, powered
by radium salts. Here's a link for more info,
if you're unfamiliar with the story

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135/hubbard.html

This was strongly reminiscent of Paul Browns work
on atomic batteries.

He eventually sold rights to the device to the Radium Corp.
and seemingly ceased development.

Now, the boy was hardly in his 20's when all this
happened, and I often wondered what happened to this
character after selling his invention. Check out
the link below for the full
story, you cannot possibly make this stuff up...

http://www.disinfo.com/pages/article/id1284/pg1/

K.

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A short course on Resonant Cavities.
Spherical Cavity Shown.

 http://www.tpub.com/neets/book11/44n.htm

Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 11:39:36 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Hyrogen fuel economics - part 1 (didn't appear)
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

 > No one is suggesting that automobile hydrogen fuel should be produced by
> > present-day chemical methods. All studies advocate deriving hydrogen from
> > solar or wind power. There is more than enough wind power to accomplish 
> this.
>
>At what cost Jed? It takes 25 Kw-Hr  per pound of Hydrogen produced.   At 
>$.10/ kw-hr
>and 55,000 btu/lb
>heat of combustion for H2 you are getting close to $2.50
>for the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline or diesel.

Cost is the problem, but I do not think it is as high as you estimate. I 
have a dated but detailed and authoritative source here: "Hydrogen Program 
Plan, FY 1993 - 1997," DoE, NREL, published 1993. This does not include 
estimates for wind power, which has become much more cost effective than 
people predicted in 1992. Anyway, p. 23 shows the efficiency, capital cost 
and emissions for a variety of systems, both conventional and hydrogen. It 
is a little difficult to compare cost per gallon equivalent, because the 
main expense is for capital equipment, and it is hard to say how long the 
equipment lasts. A "direct solar to hydrogen" facility that costs $21,100 
per kWh is more expensive than a fossil fuel plant at $3,200 per kWh, but 
it might last much longer, and of course there is no fuel cost over the 
life of the plant.

Some examples:

CURRENT TECHNOLOGY

Crude oil to gasoline ICE (what we have now)
9.5 units of input energy for each unit of propulsion energy delivered
8.5 thousand dollars per kilowatt capital cost
2.4 kg CO2/kWh
4.2 grams NOx/kWh

Photovoltaics to hydrogen
25.9 units input energy
71.4 thousand dollars/kWh
(no pollution)

Fossil fuels, electricity, battery electric car
5.1 units input energy
3.2 thousand dollars/kWh -- seems high, but they include distribution 
network cost
1.6 kg CO2/kWh
4.4 g NOx/kWh
11.8 g SO2/kWh

Natural Gas
11.2 units input energy
0.5 thousand dollars/kWh
1.3 kg CO2/kWh
4.0 g NOx/kWh


ADVANCED

Coal gasification
6.3 units input energy
4.0 thousand dollars/kWh
1.8 kg CO2/kWh
3.6 g NOx/kWh

Direct solar
4.1 units input energy
21.1 thousand dollars/kWh
(no pollution)

Biomass to hydrogen
6.8 units input energy
4.4 thousand dollars/kWh
(no pollution listed - but I think there is some.)

As of 1992, fossil fuel for electric cars was the most efficient and least 
polluting method of transportation listed here. (Nuclear or hydro power => 
electric car is not shown.) Anyway, based on the current cost of fossil 
fuel generators versus wind farms in Montana, I estimate CURRENT technology 
(in 2001) would look like this:

Wind to hydrogen
?? units input energy (but it makes no difference)
6.4 thousand dollars/kWh
(no pollution)

I am not sure how much it would cost to send the hydrogen gas from Montana 
to California, but I do not think it would be excessively expensive. It may 
not make economic sense to send it to the east coast. In many states, with 
a large number of vehicles, such as Texas and Iowa, the gas would be pumped 
only short distances, or no distance at all.


>Even if you commited all of the hydro and nuclear to hydrogen production 
>you couldn't come close to meeting the demand.

You could not today, but the idea would be to gradually increase power 
generation and on-site electrolysis, which you phase out oil and coal 
production.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 12:12:39 2001
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Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:04:21 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Primordial Gas Cloud & Spacecraft Drag
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:14:17 -0500:
>[snip]
>>poles again, and so on. If this flow pattern were strong enough, it would
>>produce an observable differential rotation pattern in Earth's atmosphere,
>>such that the atmosphere would rotate more slowly at higher altitudes, and
>>more slowly nearer to the poles. However, Earth is a small planet, close to
>[snip]
>>region where Earth's gravity is dominant. (Note: Earth's magnetic field
>>acts as a shield against the solar wind.) --MJ}***
>Is it possible that the Earth's magnetic field *is* the detectable
>effect of the aether flow?

***{By my theory, the aether is a particulate medium which pervades all of
space. It consists of an infinite series of successively more fine-grained
substrates, which I dub E1, E2, E3, etc. The particles of E1, which I call
etherons, are of a size similar to electrons; the particles of E2 are
vastly smaller; and the particles of E3 are smaller still; etc. Because of
this infinite graduation of smallness, any object that spins, including
electrons and nuclei, is going to suck aether in at its poles and hurl it
out along the equator. The reason: no matter how small the object, there
will be an aether substrate which is small enough to flow through it. This
is the state of affairs which causes nearby spinning particles to snap
together to form magnetic flux lines, as I explained in vast detail in
posts to this group in the past. Thus, in a sense, Earth's magnetic field
is the detectible effect of aether flow. Note, however, that it is not the
flow of E1 through Earth that produces Earth's magnetic field, but rather
the flow of E2 through atoms, which does so. --MJ}***
 
>[snip]
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
***{The above comments, of course, are unintelligible if you did not read
my earlier posts on this topic (e.g., Dec. 13, 1999 at 13:09) . In case you
did not, here is the gist of the theory again:

************************************
The use of the so called "right hand rule" is not required to comprehend
relationships within a magnetic field, for those who develop a correct
visual model of what a magnetic field *is*. To assist you in doing that,
let's begin by imagining a smoothly flowing current (non-turbulent) of some
liquid, down a channel. Under such circumstances, friction with the walls
of the channel will give a zero velocity to particles of fluid that are
actually touching the walls, a slight, positive velocity to the particles
that are touching them, and so on as we progress outward toward the center
of the channel, where the fluid particles will be moving with some maximum
velocity. And, of course, as we approach the opposite bank of the flow,
velocities will slow down again. An ASCII art representation of the
situation follows. (Note: Viewers of ASCII art should always switch to a
fixed length font such as Courier, in order to see the image without
distortion.)

===================================
                 >
                 ->
                 -->
                 --->
                 ---->
                 ----->
                 ---->
                 --->
                 -->
                 ->
                 >
===================================

In the above, the banks of the channel are represented by the strings of
equal signs, and the velocity of the current, at various distances from the
banks, is represented by the lengths of the arrows, which are intended as
vectors.

Now suppose that we drop thousands of ping-pong balls into the current, at
random locations. What, if any, will be the pattern of their rotations, as
viewed from above? The answer: the ones above the center of the channel
will rotate counter clockwise, and those that below the center will rotate
in the clockwise direction. The reason: the portion of the fluid stream
closest to the center of the flow will always be moving faster than the
portion that is further from the center.

If we now extend our thinking from two dimensions to three, and imagine,
say, a flow with circular symmetry that is ten feet wide, moving through
the ocean at a depth of 1000 feet, it is easy to see that similar
considerations will apply: any objects that are carried along by the flow
will rotate in such a way that the direction of inside rotation--i.e., the
side closest to the center of the flow--will rotate in the same direction
as the flow.

Now let's go a step further: suppose that the objects which are introduced
into the flow have an intrinsic spin--i.e., that they are rotating when
they are introduced into the flow, and have sufficient angular momentum to
continue spinning for awhile. Will they reorient their spin axes so that
the direction of their inside rotation is in the same direction as the
flow? The answer is yes: that is the stable equilibrium state; the opposite
is an unstable equilibrium; and all of the in-between states experience a
torque that tends to twist the axis of rotation toward the stable state.

Well, then, what happens to the spinning spheres once they have all lined
up so that their inside rotations are in the direction of the current flow?
The answer: they will attractively interact to form circular loops around
the center of the current flow--quasi flux lines, if you will. Why? Because
as they spin in the fluid, they will each suck in a downstream of fluid at
their polar axes, which will then flow across the surface toward the
equator of the sphere, and then be thrown away from the sphere along its
equatorial plane. As a result of the suction at the poles of the rotating
spheres, the north pole of one sphere will attract the south pole of the
sphere above it, and they will become coupled together by the fluid flow.
Thus the north pole of one sphere will become fluid coupled to the south
pole of the sphere above it, and the north pole of that sphere will couple
to the south pole of the one above *it*, and so on, until the spheres
couple themselves together into a closed loop, like a pearl necklace. Each
of the "pearls" in the necklace will be spinning with its inside rotation
in the direction of the flow of fluid in the channel. Result: a structure
analogous to a loop of flux--a "flux line"--will be formed.

How do actual flux lines form? Simple: there exists a particulate medium,
the aether, which pervades the universe, and is composed of an infinite
series of substrates, E1, E2, E3, etc., with the particles of each
successive substrate being smaller than those of the previous one. Just as
the objects of ordinary experience are immersed in an ocean of air, so
molecules of air are immersed in an ocean of E1 particles, and the
particles of E1 are immersed in an ocean of E2 particles, etc. Result: when
excess electrons move through a copper wire, they stir up parallel currents
in E1, E2, etc. Since the particles of E1--which I call etherons--have an
intrinsic spin and float in the ocean of E2 particles, the effect of the
moving electrons is to stir a current in E2, which then causes the
particles of E1--the etherons--to snap together, thereby forming closed
loops of flux centered on the axis of the current flow and perpendicular to
it.

Within my framework, Coulomb forces are explained as follows:

(1) A negative charge throws off microparticles which I call *negites*,
which move at many millions of times the speed of light. When they strike
another negative charge--e.g., an electron--they are absorbed, giving that
charge an impulse which tends to move it away from the charge which emitted
the negite. When, on the other hand, they strike a positive charge--e.g., a
proton--they cause it to emit two particles from its opposite side, which
travel at the same velocity as the negites and have the same mass. The
result, in that case, is to accelerate the positive charge *toward* the
source of the negites.

(2) I call the microparticles thrown off by positive charges *posites*. By
my theory, they also move at many millions of times the speed of light.
When they strike another positive charge, they are absorbed, giving that
charge an impulse which tends to move it away from the charge which emitted
the posite. When, on the other hand, they strike a negative charge, they
cause it to emit two negites in the opposite direction, which travel at the
same velocity as the posites and have the same mass. This cause the
negative charge to move toward the source of the posites.

As a result of (1) and (2), like charges repel, while opposites attract.

Since each electron is emitting negites in vast numbers, it follows that it
contains an immense number of them, stored--a supply of "ammo," as it
were--for its future emissions. And since the excess electrons that are in
motion along the axis of the wire are being wildly jostled about as they
bounce willy-nilly from one copper atom to another, they experience huge
and chaotic velocity variations--i.e., accelerations. Result: vast numbers
of negites are thrown off, not at hundreds of millions of times the speed
of light, but at pedestrian velocities: they arise, within and around the
copper wire, in a vast cloud, much as dust billows out behind a speeding
dump truck, as it carries a load of dirt down a bumpy road. Result: the
negites are carried along in the pattern of E2 flow, which, as I have
already explained, is influenced by the spin patterns of the etherons,
which are lined up in closed loops around the center of the axis of the
electron movement.

Here is an analysis, using the above theory, of what happens when a
positive test charge is moved against the flow of electrons, in the
vicinity of a copper wire through which a DC current is flowing:

(1) Asthe positive test charge moves along, parallel to the copper wire, in
a direction opposite the flow of electrons in the wire, the excess protons
which it contains will approach flux lines.

(2) The inside rotation of those flux lines will be parallel to the
direction of electron movement in the wire and they will be surrounded by
negites that are moving in the same way that the flux lines are rotating.
Result: as the excess protons in the test charge approach flux lines, they
will be struck by negites that are moving away from the axis of the copper
wire.

(3) Since when a negite strikes a proton it causes it to move *in the
opposite direction to the motion of the negite*, it follows that the
positive test charge will tend to move toward the wire.

A similar analysis will show that when the positive test charge moves in
the same direction as the electron flow, it will be forced *away* from the
wire, when a negative test charge moves opposite the electron flow, it will
be forced away from the wire, and when a negative test charge is moved with
the electron flow, it will be forced toward the wire. Bottom line: once you
have incorporated the above described visual model into your thinking about
magnetic fields, you will have no further need for the so called "right
hand rule."
************************************

So there you have it! :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 12:39:17 2001
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Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:27:43 -0500
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 11:55 AM
Subject: RE: Mercury Arc Space Drive?

You said, "I haven't seen one take off yet".

How can it take off with the Hg cathode down?  :-)

OTOH, a weight gain with it sitting on a scale would be most interesting.

OTOH II, you might put in some D2 at a few miilitorr
and make a Cold Fusion (Mizuno -Ohmori) device out of it, and use that to power it.

Frederick


> I presume you're pulling my leg here, but
> as we both know the cathode has to be down due
> to the mercury pool, wouldn't I expect a
> weight gain?
> 
> K.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 6:47 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net
> Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 11:49 PM
> Subject: RE: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
> 
> Hi Keith.
> If you can get one to take off with the cathode down, that
> would really be something!   :-)
> 
> Frederick
> 
> 
> > Hi Fred.
> >
> > OK, I've done my share of experimenting with mercury
> > ignitrons. Is this something like what you have in mind?
> > I'll say, when you push a 1000 amps or so thru one
> > they make quite a pop, but I haven't seen one take
> > off yet. Any suggestions for testing here? I happen to
> > have one with all the driver circuitry set up, so
> > go ahead...
> >
> > K.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 5:47 AM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net
> > Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
> >
> >
> > Just in case experiment for unsure skeptics:
> >
> > Use two ~1/4 inch diameter tungsten welding rods tightly inserted in a
> > quartz or
> > ceramic tube (~1.0 mm gap) with a small drop of Hg or Cs contacting them
> in
> > the gap ,
> > so that the drop vaporizes when the voltage (24 volts D.C.) is applied
> with
> > the
> > negative side up.
> >
> > If it levitates...  :-)
> >
> > Regards,   Frederick
> >
> >
> >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 12:40:12 2001
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Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:37:02 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Atlanta traffic problem solved
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At 2:00 a.m. Saturday, a truck overturned on one of Atlanta's busiest 
sections of highway. A thousand gallons of gasoline spilled and ignited, 
destroying a large part of a bridge and blocking another highway 
underneath. Fortunately, no one was hurt. Most of the highway will be 
closed off for six weeks or more. See photos at:

http://www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/newsatlanta/crash/image1.html

Many people predicted that this morning's commute would be the worst in 
history. I predicted that people would make plans and take steps to avoid 
the mess. I was right. Quoting the Atlanta Journal/Constitution:

"This morning, it has been outstanding. We got through in far better shape 
than I thought we would," Fulton County police Maj. T.R. Shaw said. "We may 
have found a way to solve Atlanta's traffic problems. Maybe the way to get 
traffic to move in Atlanta is to periodically knock down a bridge."

This is probably intended to be a witticism, but in fact the Major is 
right, and this should have been clear to everyone long ago. Building more 
highways will only make traffic worse and worse. The only way to fix the 
traffic problem is to effectively close highways down, either by knocking 
down bridges or charging a high toll. Highways and commuter railroads are 
19th century solutions to a 21st century problem. The best solution now is 
telecommuting from small satellite offices close to home, or in the home. A 
continuously open ADSL to the boss with a computer stop action CAM video 
will keep people from goofing off, if that is a problem.

The way to cut back traffic immediately is to ration a scarce resource: 
highway pavement at rush hour. Make people pay for it. Charge a large toll, 
say $5 or $10, and make the MARTA commuter train free. In other words, 
reverse the incentives, and close off the highways to most people. It is a 
shame that this would disproportionately hurt poor people, but most 
policies to solve most problems hurt poor people, after all. Making MARTA 
free would help poor people disproportionately. People at all income levels 
would quickly find other ways to get to work, including carpooling, MARTA 
or telecommuting.

In California, electricity consumption in May fell 11% compared to May 
2000. The energy crisis could be eliminated with conservation and 
innovation, at a much lower cost than with any other method. We are far 
from the thermodynamic limits of most manufacturing, transportation or 
space heating applications, and far from limits of cost-effective 
improvements. If the U.S. is incapable of doing this, as our political 
leaders apparently believe, then we can buy all the technology we need from 
our economic rivals, who manage to squeeze three times more GDP out of 
their fuel than we get out of ours.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 13:19:38 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:18:50 -0400
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Hi Fred,

Well, the thing sits on a hard table, and I fire it.
If a downward impulse occurs, would I not expect to
see the thing bounce? The table is rigid, and the
ignitron is free to move. "Grade School physics" as
you like to say (smile).

I've moved >1000 amps thru such a device for about
a millisecond, care to calculate how much force
I'd expect from that? The device itself weighs
about 3 kilograms. Think single shot here, it'd
require way too much work to make a charger
for the cap bank that'd do much more than that.
Oh yeah, the output is a nice clean square pulse.

I don't use it anymore, preferring to work with
SCR's which are in most ways superior.

If the numbers work out, I can probably test this.
Send up the kites, Igor!

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 2:28 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?



----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 11:55 AM
Subject: RE: Mercury Arc Space Drive?

You said, "I haven't seen one take off yet".

How can it take off with the Hg cathode down?  :-)

OTOH, a weight gain with it sitting on a scale would be most interesting.

OTOH II, you might put in some D2 at a few miilitorr
and make a Cold Fusion (Mizuno -Ohmori) device out of it, and use that to
power it.

Frederick


> I presume you're pulling my leg here, but
> as we both know the cathode has to be down due
> to the mercury pool, wouldn't I expect a
> weight gain?
>
> K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 6:47 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net
> Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 11:49 PM
> Subject: RE: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
>
> Hi Keith.
> If you can get one to take off with the cathode down, that
> would really be something!   :-)
>
> Frederick
>
>
> > Hi Fred.
> >
> > OK, I've done my share of experimenting with mercury
> > ignitrons. Is this something like what you have in mind?
> > I'll say, when you push a 1000 amps or so thru one
> > they make quite a pop, but I haven't seen one take
> > off yet. Any suggestions for testing here? I happen to
> > have one with all the driver circuitry set up, so
> > go ahead...
> >
> > K.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 5:47 AM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net
> > Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
> >
> >
> > Just in case experiment for unsure skeptics:
> >
> > Use two ~1/4 inch diameter tungsten welding rods tightly inserted in a
> > quartz or
> > ceramic tube (~1.0 mm gap) with a small drop of Hg or Cs contacting them
> in
> > the gap ,
> > so that the drop vaporizes when the voltage (24 volts D.C.) is applied
> with
> > the
> > negative side up.
> >
> > If it levitates...  :-)
> >
> > Regards,   Frederick
> >
> >
> >
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 13:22:20 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Hyrogen fuel economics - Part about Fred's statement
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>At what cost Jed? It takes 25 Kw-Hr  per pound of Hydrogen produced.   At 
>$.10/ kw-hr and 55,000 btu/lb heat of combustion for H2 you are getting 
>close to $2.50 for the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline or diesel.

I should have agreed that the cycle Fred describes is completely out of the 
question. He is talking about the heat of combustion of H2, or in other 
words, burning H2 in something like a conventional ICE. It is even worse 
than he estimated:

CURRENT TECHNOLOGY

Averaged fossil fuels to electricity to hydrogen
71.9 units of input energy for each unit of propulsion energy delivered
71.4 thousand dollars per kilowatt capital cost (same 71 by coincidence)
22.6 kg CO2/kWh
62.9 grams NOx/kWh
169.6 grams SO2/kWh

This is 7.6 times less efficient than conventional ICE, and 8.4 times more 
expensive in capital costs. As I said earlier, no one has advocated this 
scheme as far as I know. It would be economic lunacy -- kind of the 
Japanese breeder reactor program. Hydrogen produced by other means and then 
used in a fuel cell has much more promise.

In the cycle Fred described, electrolysis is 65% efficient, bulk storage 
and vehicle on board storage are both 65% efficient, and the ICE is only 18%.

A fuel cell is roughly 50% efficient. "Advanced Technology" electrolysis 
and gas storage are both projected at 75% efficient. Combining advanced 
techniques, from fossil fuel => electricity => fuel cell it ends up taking 
12.9 units of energy to produce 1 unit of vehicle propulsion, which still 
makes no economic sense. Other techniques such as natural gas => hydrogen 
or even gasoline => hydrogen on-board reformulating have more promise.

- Jed

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Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:15:37 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: RE: Nemesis: The Death Star
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>Mitchell,
>	Good work.
>There is precedence for your theory. You may have gravitationally bound
>harmonics in a orbiting system with separate orbits. There are several
>levels of these harmonics.
>
>However Occam's Razor postulates that you do not need the Nemesis star. Your
>theory  is sound, as moons of Jupiter and Saturn exhibit harmonics, and
>therefore any gravitationally bound system may do so.
>
>Your theory misses out the relevant facts that the galactic disk may also be
>in fact a breeding ground for much vaster numbers of dark cometary material.
>Just the passing of the sun through these lanes may in fact cause the event
>you described.

***{Is this part of the Rampino-Stothers hypothesis that Fred was talking
about? Anyway, I don't see how it could possibly work. It seems impossible
to me that comets could concentrate in the galactic midplane, for the very
reason you stated: every time a star passed through the midplane, it would
disrupt the comets in its vicinity, sending them flying wildly hither and
thither. Since every single star in the galaxy participates in the bobbing
motion, passing repeatedly through the midplane and back again, it is
clearly physically impossible for a concentration of comets to exist there.
Result: a star--Nemesis--is required to explain the periodicity of the mass
extinctions. --MJ}***

This would explain how the comets in our solar system may
>actually come in all angles to the plane of solar elliptic and plane of
>galactic elliptic.

***{Long period comets are from the Oort cloud, where they were originally
in circular orbits, prior to being perturbed by passing stars--e.g., by
Nemesis. They enter the inner solar system from all angles because the
circular orbits in the Oort cloud are oriented at many angles, rather than
being formed into a flattened disc like the Kuiper belt. The reason the
Oort cloud is spherical rather than disc-shaped like the Kuiper belt is
simply that, at those vast distances from the sun--i.e., 30,000 to 100,000
AU--orbital velocities are so very, very low that the comets in the cloud
are barely moving. Result: they almost never collide with one another, and
hence the averaging process that tends to flatten spherical clouds into a
disc requires more time than has been available.

To illustrate the point, let's calculate the speed of the comets at the
heart of the Oort cloud--i.e., at about 70,000 AU. The outward or
centrifugal force is Fo = mV^2/r, and the inward force of gravity is Fi =
GmM/r^2, where G is the gravitational constant, m is the mass of the comet,
M is the mass of Sol, and r is the distance of the comet from Sol. For a
comet in a stable orbit, Fo = Fi, so we have:

mV^2/r = GmM/r^2, or

V^2 = GM/r, or

V = (GM/r)^.5 = [(6.672x10^-8)
(1.9891x10^33)/(7x10^4)(14,959,787,000,000)^.5 = (1.27x10^8)^.5 = 11,280
cm/sec, or 11.3 m/sec.

That's just 25 miles per hour!

By astronomical standards, in other words, the comets in the Oort cloud are
barely moving. As a result, they sweep out very little space per unit of
time, relative to the immensities of the space available, thereby reducing
the collisions probabilities per unit time virtually to zero. Result: it
takes too long for the comets in the Oort cloud to aggregate together into
a disc--longer than the life of the sun. Hence it is not necessary to
postulate that the Oort cloud does not exist and that, in fact, long period
comets come in from interstellar space, to explain why they come in from
all angles.

--Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

>Matthew Rogers
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

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Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:38:34 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
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>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mitchell Jones" <mjones jump.net>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 12:56 PM
>Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
>
>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
>> >According to some very astute calculations a Mercury Arc Discharge( Cesium
>> >or Xenon
>> >will work too) can work as a space drive without expelling any propellant.
>> >
>> >This comes about because the slow moving heavy positive ion, M+, striking
>> >the cathode
>> >have as much as 600 times
>> >the momentum as the stripped electron, e- striking the anode:
>> >
>> >mv = m(2Vq/m)^1/2
>> >
>> >With about 20 volts   750 amperes (15 Kwe) 4.45 newtons (1.0 lb) of thrust
>> >can be
>> >obtained.
>>
>> ***{In order for the positive ion to acquire that momentum, it must first
>> be repelled away from the anode and then attracted to the cathode--which
>> means: for every increment to the momentum of the positive ion, the anode
>> and/or cathode must acquire equal momentum in the opposite direction.
>> Result: there is no net change in the momentum of the system. --MJ}***
>
>That is the intuitive take, but sometime past I was informed of a "Cathode
>Drag
>Effect" in an electrical discharge.
>
>Time to check it out.
>
>IOW the arc discharge produces a reflecion of the impacting ion (possibly
>neutralized
>at the cathode surface)
>thus a net force on the cathode.
>
>Regards,   Frederick

***{I've been thinking about this some more. My assumption is that the
cathode and the anode are inside a sealed off glass chamber containing
mercury vapor, which is ionized by the voltage gradient. Electrons are
stripped off of the mercury atoms at the anode, after which the resulting
positive ions are first accelerated away from the anode by the positive
electric field there, and then accelerated further by the negative electric
field as they approach the cathode. Then, when the mercury ions strike the
cathode, they give back all of the momentum that they gained during the
acceleration phase. The idea, then, is that as the positive ion is
accelerated toward the cathode, the lamp as a whole is accelerated in the
opposite direction--i.e., in the direction pointed to by the anode end of
the lamp--and when it slams to a stop at the cathode and is handed an
electron, it merely stops the displacement of the lamp, rather than moving
the lamp back to its starting point. If so, then what is ignored is the
subsequent effect of moving the resulting mercury atom back to the anode
again: that movement will undo the displacement of the lamp which resulted
from moving the mercury ion to the cathode.

Perhaps an analogy will make the point more clearly. Suppose a bum is
inside a locked railway car, which is sitting on a frictionless track. He
has a tub of mud at one end of the car, and he  fashions mudballs and hurls
them to the opposite end of the car, where they stick on the wall. Result:
each mudball that he throws will produce a slight displacement of the car
toward the end from which he is throwing. That displacement will occur
while the mudball is in flight, and will cease when it strikes the wall.
Once all the mudballs have been tossed, the car will have been displaced a
distance x down the tracks, and, when the bum picks up his now empty tub
and walks to the other end of the car, where the mudballs are stuck, the
car will displace even further down the tracks. However, if he then scrapes
all the mudballs off the wall, puts them in the tub, and carries it back to
the opposite end of the car, the entire displacement of the car will be
undone.

Bottom line: there is no way set an isolated system into uniform motion by
moving masses about within the system. The only way to do it is to transfer
mass or energy out of the system.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>>
>> >OTOH, I won't believe it until I see it fly.  :-)
>> >
>> >Regards,   Frederick
>>
>> ________________
>> Quote of the month:
>>
>> "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
>> be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers
>>

________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 13:40:56 2001
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Subject: Re: Hyrogen fuel economics - part 1 (didn't appear)
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 1:36 PM
Subject: Hyrogen fuel economics - part 1 (didn't appear)

Your first post came through ok, Jed,

In the mid 1970s JPL sent a team to Pecos Texas to "rescue" the ag producers using
$.05/kw-hr electricity
to make hydrogen to replace the natural gas piped to pumped irrigation farms in the
area.

Fortunately their electrolysis cell exploded leveling a building before  their
$2.50/lb (~ $20.00/million btu)H2 fuel gas went on line to rescue them from
~$4.50/million btu natural gas cost.  :-)

My consulting team (funded by their worried bankers) showed them how to make
thermochemical SNG from their ag wastes to run their gas-powered irrigation pumps.
This ended the panic and bought enough time for George Bush et.al. to open  the
Midland-Odessa oil and gas fields and natural gas prices stabilized around
$2.50/million btu.

Regards,   Frederick


> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
>  > No one is suggesting that automobile hydrogen fuel should be produced by
> > > present-day chemical methods. All studies advocate deriving hydrogen from
> > > solar or wind power. There is more than enough wind power to accomplish
> > this.
> >
> >At what cost Jed? It takes 25 Kw-Hr  per pound of Hydrogen produced.   At
> >$.10/ kw-hr
> >and 55,000 btu/lb
> >heat of combustion for H2 you are getting close to $2.50
> >for the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline or diesel.
>
> Cost is the problem, but I do not think it is as high as you estimate. I
> have a dated but detailed and authoritative source here: "Hydrogen Program
> Plan, FY 1993 - 1997," DoE, NREL, published 1993. This does not include
> estimates for wind power, which has become much more cost effective than
> people predicted in 1992. Anyway, p. 23 shows the efficiency, capital cost
> and emissions for a variety of systems, both conventional and hydrogen. It
> is a little difficult to compare cost per gallon equivalent, because the
> main expense is for capital equipment, and it is hard to say how long the
> equipment lasts. A "direct solar to hydrogen" facility that costs $21,100
> per kWh is more expensive than a fossil fuel plant at $3,200 per kWh, but
> it might last much longer, and of course there is no fuel cost over the
> life of the plant.
>
> Some examples:
>
> CURRENT TECHNOLOGY
>
> Crude oil to gasoline ICE (what we have now)
> 9.5 units of input energy for each unit of propulsion energy delivered
> 8.5 thousand dollars per kilowatt capital cost
> 2.4 kg CO2/kWh
> 4.2 grams NOx/kWh
>
> Photovoltaics to hydrogen
> 25.9 units input energy
> 71.4 thousand dollars/kWh
> (no pollution)
>
> Fossil fuels, electricity, battery electric car
> 5.1 units input energy
> 3.2 thousand dollars/kWh -- seems high, but they include distribution
> network cost
> 1.6 kg CO2/kWh
> 4.4 g NOx/kWh
> 11.8 g SO2/kWh
>
> Natural Gas
> 11.2 units input energy
> 0.5 thousand dollars/kWh
> 1.3 kg CO2/kWh
> 4.0 g NOx/kWh
>
>
> ADVANCED
>
> Coal gasification
> 6.3 units input energy
> 4.0 thousand dollars/kWh
> 1.8 kg CO2/kWh
> 3.6 g NOx/kWh
>
> Direct solar
> 4.1 units input energy
> 21.1 thousand dollars/kWh
> (no pollution)
>
> Biomass to hydrogen
> 6.8 units input energy
> 4.4 thousand dollars/kWh
> (no pollution listed - but I think there is some.)
>
> As of 1992, fossil fuel for electric cars was the most efficient and least
> polluting method of transportation listed here. (Nuclear or hydro power =>
> electric car is not shown.) Anyway, based on the current cost of fossil
> fuel generators versus wind farms in Montana, I estimate CURRENT technology
> (in 2001) would look like this:
>
> Wind to hydrogen
> ?? units input energy (but it makes no difference)
> 6.4 thousand dollars/kWh
> (no pollution)
>
> I am not sure how much it would cost to send the hydrogen gas from Montana
> to California, but I do not think it would be excessively expensive. It may
> not make economic sense to send it to the east coast. In many states, with
> a large number of vehicles, such as Texas and Iowa, the gas would be pumped
> only short distances, or no distance at all.
>
>
> >Even if you commited all of the hydro and nuclear to hydrogen production
> >you couldn't come close to meeting the demand.
>
> You could not today, but the idea would be to gradually increase power
> generation and on-site electrolysis, which you phase out oil and coal
> production.
>
> - Jed
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 13:48:06 2001
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: RE: Nemesis: The Death Star
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Assuming my variant of the Nemesis theory is correct, the best way to
search for Nemesis would be to look on the surface of a cylinder roughly
2.2 light years in radius, centered on Sol, and perpendicular to the
galactic midplane. The first place I would look would be 8 pc below the
midplane. Since the average distance between stars in the disc of the Milky
Way is, if memory serves, about 6 light years, beginning the search there
should narrow the list to a small number of candidates. Each can then be
checked to see if its motion will bring it to a position 2.2 light years
from Sol in about 13 million years. To do this, of course, one would need
access to a supercomputer on which an accurate model of the motions of the
various stars in our vicinity of the Milky Way has been stored. --MJ
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

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Subject: Re: Aquino info on Anti Gravity - Meland
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Blanton" <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: Aquino info on Anti Gravity - Meland

This is called "back engineering", Terry. Using something whatever Crops Up, so to
speak..   :-)

Frederick




> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> > Working with a fellow vortexian we tried large 1/4 inch
> > copper tubing "hoops" fed with various pulse shapes up to 24 Mhz, but this doesn't
get
> > close enough to c to synchronize with the Gravity field which is so close to c
that
> > the dilation Gamma is ~ 6.0 x 10^18 and the 137*c
> > phase velocity.
>
> Ah, yes, I remember the AG Hula-hoop!
>
> > With clean Vacuum Resonant Cavities you should get there.
>
> Fred, what is *really bizarre* about Hardeman's story is that he
> got the idea from . . . a crop circle.  Now you know me, I first
> met you in the Compuserve UFO forums and I have a mind so open
> that my brain often falls out.  But a crop circle??!?  Geeze.
>
> Here's the image:
>
> http://www.icnet.net/users/chrish/cropcir.html
>
> So, if someone is really trying to communicate with cereal
> geometry, then what do all these other images mean??
>
> http://www.lovely.clara.net/homepg.html
>
> Terry
>
> (returning to his study of the Zohar)
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 13:55:32 2001
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Working with a fellow vortexian we tried large 1/4 inch
> copper tubing "hoops" fed with various pulse shapes up to 24 Mhz, but this doesn't get
> close enough to c to synchronize with the Gravity field which is so close to c that
> the dilation Gamma is ~ 6.0 x 10^18 and the 137*c
> phase velocity.

Ah, yes, I remember the AG Hula-hoop!
 
> With clean Vacuum Resonant Cavities you should get there.

Fred, what is *really bizarre* about Hardeman's story is that he
got the idea from . . . a crop circle.  Now you know me, I first
met you in the Compuserve UFO forums and I have a mind so open
that my brain often falls out.  But a crop circle??!?  Geeze.

Here's the image:

http://www.icnet.net/users/chrish/cropcir.html

So, if someone is really trying to communicate with cereal
geometry, then what do all these other images mean??

http://www.lovely.clara.net/homepg.html

Terry

(returning to his study of the Zohar)

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mitchell Jones" <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?


Mud slinging don't hack it, Mitchell. Do the experiment.  :-)

Regards,  Frederick
> >Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >
> >> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> >> >According to some very astute calculations a Mercury Arc Discharge( Cesium
> >> >or Xenon
> >> >will work too) can work as a space drive without expelling any propellant.
> >> >
> >> >This comes about because the slow moving heavy positive ion, M+, striking
> >> >the cathode
> >> >have as much as 600 times
> >> >the momentum as the stripped electron, e- striking the anode:
> >> >
> >> >mv = m(2Vq/m)^1/2
> >> >
> >> >With about 20 volts   750 amperes (15 Kwe) 4.45 newtons (1.0 lb) of thrust
> >> >can be
> >> >obtained.
> >>
> >> ***{In order for the positive ion to acquire that momentum, it must first
> >> be repelled away from the anode and then attracted to the cathode--which
> >> means: for every increment to the momentum of the positive ion, the anode
> >> and/or cathode must acquire equal momentum in the opposite direction.
> >> Result: there is no net change in the momentum of the system. --MJ}***
> >
> >That is the intuitive take, but sometime past I was informed of a "Cathode
> >Drag
> >Effect" in an electrical discharge.
> >
> >Time to check it out.
> >
> >IOW the arc discharge produces a reflecion of the impacting ion (possibly
> >neutralized
> >at the cathode surface)
> >thus a net force on the cathode.
> >
> >Regards,   Frederick
> 
> ***{I've been thinking about this some more. My assumption is that the
> cathode and the anode are inside a sealed off glass chamber containing
> mercury vapor, which is ionized by the voltage gradient. Electrons are
> stripped off of the mercury atoms at the anode, after which the resulting
> positive ions are first accelerated away from the anode by the positive
> electric field there, and then accelerated further by the negative electric
> field as they approach the cathode. Then, when the mercury ions strike the
> cathode, they give back all of the momentum that they gained during the
> acceleration phase. The idea, then, is that as the positive ion is
> accelerated toward the cathode, the lamp as a whole is accelerated in the
> opposite direction--i.e., in the direction pointed to by the anode end of
> the lamp--and when it slams to a stop at the cathode and is handed an
> electron, it merely stops the displacement of the lamp, rather than moving
> the lamp back to its starting point. If so, then what is ignored is the
> subsequent effect of moving the resulting mercury atom back to the anode
> again: that movement will undo the displacement of the lamp which resulted
> from moving the mercury ion to the cathode.
> 
> Perhaps an analogy will make the point more clearly. Suppose a bum is
> inside a locked railway car, which is sitting on a frictionless track. He
> has a tub of mud at one end of the car, and he  fashions mudballs and hurls
> them to the opposite end of the car, where they stick on the wall. Result:
> each mudball that he throws will produce a slight displacement of the car
> toward the end from which he is throwing. That displacement will occur
> while the mudball is in flight, and will cease when it strikes the wall.
> Once all the mudballs have been tossed, the car will have been displaced a
> distance x down the tracks, and, when the bum picks up his now empty tub
> and walks to the other end of the car, where the mudballs are stuck, the
> car will displace even further down the tracks. However, if he then scrapes
> all the mudballs off the wall, puts them in the tub, and carries it back to
> the opposite end of the car, the entire displacement of the car will be
> undone.
> 
> Bottom line: there is no way set an isolated system into uniform motion by
> moving masses about within the system. The only way to do it is to transfer
> mass or energy out of the system.
> 
> --Mitchell Jones}***
> 
> >>
> >> >OTOH, I won't believe it until I see it fly.  :-)
> >> >
> >> >Regards,   Frederick
> >>
> >> ________________
> >> Quote of the month:
> >>
> >> "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
> >> be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers
> >>
> 
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
> 
> "Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
> be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers
> 

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:36:36 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: knagel gis.net
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMAEMECMAA.knagel gis.net>

Keith Nagel wrote:
> 
> Hi Fred,
> 
> Well, the thing sits on a hard table, and I fire it.
> If a downward impulse occurs, would I not expect to
> see the thing bounce? The table is rigid, and the
> ignitron is free to move. "Grade School physics" as
> you like to say (smile).
> 
> I've moved >1000 amps thru such a device for about
> a millisecond, care to calculate how much force
> I'd expect from that? The device itself weighs
> about 3 kilograms. Think single shot here, it'd
> require way too much work to make a charger
> for the cap bank that'd do much more than that.
> Oh yeah, the output is a nice clean square pulse.
> 
> I don't use it anymore, preferring to work with
> SCR's which are in most ways superior.
> 
> If the numbers work out, I can probably test this.
> Send up the kites, Igor!

Keith,

Are you aware of the alleged gravity modification aircraft
"exposed" by Ed Fouche, the TR3B? (Not the TR3A!)  See:

http://fouchemedia.com/arap/index.htm

for a picture and 

http://fouchemedia.com/arap/speech.htm

(about 80% through the speech) he claims:

"Sandia and Livermore laboratories developed the reverse
engineered MFD technology. The government will go to any lengths
to protect this technology. The plasma, mercury based, is
pressurized at 250,000 atmospheres at a temperature of 150
degrees Kelvin, and accelerated to 50,000 rpm to create a
super-conductive plasma with the resulting gravity disruption."

I questioned his pressure figure and he said, "That's what they
told me."

Anyway, I enjoyed your reference on Al M. Hubbard.  His story is
more bizarre than Jack Parsons'.

Terry

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it is a wave
    -----Original Message-----
    From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
    To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
    Date: Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:51 AM
    Subject: RE: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
   =20
   =20
        Thomas,
       =20
        =20
       =20
        Gravity is a force not a particle.
   =20
   =20
    Hum, did you see my posting on the Gravitron conference? They seem =
to think that gravity is manifested in the form of a particle.
   =20
   =20
       =20
       =20
        When the particle is found that generates the field that causes =
gravity and inertia ( the two are equal ) then science will unify all =
known forces.
   =20
   =20
    I assume that is what the Japanese researchers who are sponsoring =
the conference have in mind.
       =20
       =20
        Neutrinos have very little interaction with matter, however =
there is many of them. If they even have a little mass, then they would =
have a large effect of a source of mass on the structure of the =
universe, but still not have any effect on us beings of matter.
   =20
   =20
    The question is how can matter have an effect on neutrions? If they =
could be captured and changed into energy,
   =20
   =20
       =20
       =20
        =20
       =20
        The worlds most sensitive Neutrino observatory in Japan detected =
less than 10 neutrino events from the 1986a supernova, a galaxy away, =
even though trillions per square inch per second sleeted through our =
galaxy.
   =20
   =20
    How do you know there are trillions? if you can't detect them?
   =20
   =20
        =20
       =20
        Neutrino's may have mass, which means enough of them exert a =
gravitational force, but they would be just like any other matter with =
gravitational force.
   =20
   =20
    considering your previous writing, this would seeem to be =
contradictory
   =20
   =20
        Do a search on the Higgs particle and the Higgs Field, and you =
will see that.
       =20
   =20
   =20
    The last I heard, they were still looking for the Higgs Boson, did I =
miss something?
   =20
   =20
        =20
       =20
        Also consider that even though the mind may be powerful enough =
to visualize physics like Stephen Hawking, your electrical fields that =
your brain creates are several orders of magnitude less than what is =
required to influence matter around it.
   =20
   =20
    Have you ever heard of spoon bending? I'd say that this is a classic =
example of theory conflicting with observed fact.
   =20
   =20
       =20
       =20
        Email: tom rhfweb.com
   =20


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<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>RE: Candidate for universal =
gravitational glue</TITLE><!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<STYLE type=3Dtext/css><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></STYLE>

<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>it is a wave</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>thomas malloy &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com">temalloy@metro.lakes.com</A>&gt;=
<BR><B>To:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Dat=
e:=20
    </B>Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:51 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>RE: Candidate =
for=20
    universal gravitational glue<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
        size=3D-1>Thomas,</FONT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
        size=3D-1>&nbsp;</FONT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
        size=3D-1>Gravity is a force not a particle.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>Hum, did you see my posting on the Gravitron conference? They =
seem to=20
    think that gravity is manifested in the form of a particle.</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D-1>When=20
        the particle is found that generates the field that causes =
gravity and=20
        inertia ( the two are equal ) then science will unify all known=20
        forces.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>I assume that is what the Japanese researchers who are =
sponsoring the=20
    conference have in mind.</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
        size=3D-1>Neutrinos have very little interaction with matter, =
however=20
        there is many of them. If they even have a little mass, then =
they would=20
        have a large effect of a source of mass on the structure of the=20
        universe, but still not have any effect on us beings of=20
    matter.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>The question is how can matter have an effect on neutrions? If =
they=20
    could be captured and changed into energy,</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
        size=3D-1>&nbsp;</FONT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D-1>The=20
        worlds most sensitive Neutrino observatory in Japan detected =
less than=20
        10 neutrino events from the 1986a supernova, a galaxy away, even =
though=20
        trillions per square inch per second sleeted through our=20
    galaxy.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>How do you know there are trillions? if you can't detect =
them?</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
        size=3D-1>&nbsp;</FONT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
        size=3D-1>Neutrino's may have mass, which means enough of them =
exert a=20
        gravitational force, but they would be just like any other =
matter with=20
        gravitational force.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>considering your previous writing, this would seeem to be=20
    contradictory</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D-1>Do a=20
        search on the Higgs particle and the Higgs Field, and you will =
see=20
        that.</FONT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>The last I heard, they were still looking for the Higgs Boson, =
did I=20
    miss something?</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
        size=3D-1>&nbsp;</FONT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D-1>Also=20
        consider that even though the mind may be powerful enough to =
visualize=20
        physics like Stephen Hawking, your electrical fields that your =
brain=20
        creates are several orders of magnitude less than what is =
required to=20
        influence matter around it.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>Have you ever heard of spoon bending? I'd say that this is a =
classic=20
    example of theory conflicting with observed fact.</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000000=20
    face=3DArial><BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type =3D cite><FONT color=3D#000000=20
        face=3DArial>Email:</FONT> <A =
href=3D"mailto:tom rhfweb.com"><FONT=20
        color=3D#000000 =
face=3DArial>tom rhfweb.com</FONT></A></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
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>
>This comes about because the slow moving heavy positive ion, M+, 
>striking the cathode have as much as 600 times the momentum as the 
>stripped electron, e- striking the anode:
>
>Regards,   Frederick

What are you saying, that this system would produce a unidirectional 
force? NASA is looking for things like this.

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Subject: Re: Hyrogen fuel economics
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What the biomass calculations seem to leave out is the capital and energy
necessary to produce the biomass. You are basically using plants (how many
square miles?) as solar energy converters, and overlooking the very strong
temptation to use fertilizers to maximize the plant growth. And where will
the fertilizer come from? Petroleum, and the efficiency of conversion to
biomass fuel is apt to be low. And have we estimated the energy investment
to plant, cultivate, harvest and transport the biomass to the point of use?

As for windmills at the local filling station, I doubt that my township
would tolerate three windmills at the local intersection where there are
three gas stations. And how about the energy density available from the
local breeze? The fatal flaw with pure electric cars is the over-150 mile
trip when you have to recharge. You can fill your tank with gasoline in five
minutes, but it would take much longer to recharge your batteries; your
would have a large electrical substation to supply the power demand of a
bunch of cars at the turnpike stop. As for swapping batteries, you paid good
bucks for the one you brought, what guarantee do you have that the one you
picked up won't die on you?

We don't have a good system for the transportation of hydrogen, even storing
it in your car. As for pipelines, hydrogen has a reputation for being very
difficult to contain. The energy density of a mile of hydrogen pipeline is
apt to be much less than that same mile filled with gasoline or methanol.

Mike Carrell

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Subject: Re: Hyrogen fuel economics
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>What the biomass calculations seem to leave out is the capital and energy
>necessary to produce the biomass.

Yes. I think most biomass schemes use materials left over from agriculture, 
which would otherwise be left to rot. Here in Georgia peanut shells are 
mixed with coal and burned, with good control over pollution.


>As for windmills at the local filling station, I doubt that my township
>would tolerate three windmills at the local intersection where there are
>three gas stations.

Many townships in Europe, New York, California, Iowa and elsewhere allow 
windmills in areas close to roads. I did not mean the windmill would be 
directly over the road or filling station, in the literal sense, I meant it 
would be about as far away as the small oil pumps you see by the side of 
the road in Texas and other oil-producing states. The only danger would 
come from the storage tanks. Obviously, safety engineering would be needed.

Excess electricity or gas could be sent through the distribution network, 
but most of the energy would be used then and there. This would reduce the 
burden on the distribution network, by bringing the consumers (cars) to the 
energy source.


>  And how about the energy density available from the
>local breeze?

This would only be done in areas with lots of wind.


>  The fatal flaw with pure electric cars is the over-150 mile trip when 
> you have to recharge. You can fill your tank with gasoline in five 
> minutes, but it would take much longer to recharge your batteries . . .

Batteries with much greater capacity per kilogram and batteries that can 
recharge in a few minutes have been developed, but they are not economical. 
They may never be.


>As for swapping batteries, you paid good bucks for the one you brought, 
>what guarantee do you have that the one you picked up won't die on you?

The battery would be the property of the power company. You would turn in a 
defective one at the next turnpike stop, and not think twice about it. This 
would work the same way as the distribution of natural gas in small tanks 
from hardware stores like Home Depot in Atlanta. You don't own the tank; 
you return it when it is empty.


>We don't have a good system for the transportation of hydrogen, even 
>storing it in your car.

That is a major technical problem.


>As for pipelines, hydrogen has a reputation for being very difficult to 
>contain.

Another serious problem.


>  The energy density of a mile of hydrogen pipeline is
>apt to be much less than that same mile filled with gasoline or methanol.

I do not think energy density is much of a problem, because it costs very 
little to transport even at low density.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 16:51:59 2001
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Subject: Re: Hyrogen fuel economics - Part about Fred's statement
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 3:14 PM
Subject: Hyrogen fuel economics - Part about Fred's statement
Jed wrote:
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >At what cost Jed? It takes 25 Kw-Hr  per pound of Hydrogen produced.   At
> >$.10/ kw-hr and 55,000 btu/lb heat of combustion for H2 you are getting
> >close to $2.50 for the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline or diesel.

Actually Jed, it takes 54 kw-hr to electrolyze water to 2.16 lbs of H2 which at the
low 51,593 btu/lb heat value of combustion of H2. This  equals the low heat value of
combustion of a gallon of gasoline.At $0.10/kw-hr it would be equivalent to 112,000
btu/gallon gasoline priced at $5.40/gallon.
>
> I should have agreed that the cycle Fred describes is completely out of the
> question. He is talking about the heat of combustion of H2, or in other
> words, burning H2 in something like a conventional ICE. It is even worse
> than he estimated:
>
> CURRENT TECHNOLOGY
>
> Averaged fossil fuels to electricity to hydrogen
> 71.9 units of input energy for each unit of propulsion energy delivered
> 71.4 thousand dollars per kilowatt capital cost (same 71 by coincidence)
> 22.6 kg CO2/kWh
> 62.9 grams NOx/kWh
> 169.6 grams SO2/kWh
>
> This is 7.6 times less efficient than conventional ICE, and 8.4 times more
> expensive in capital costs. As I said earlier, no one has advocated this
> scheme as far as I know. It would be economic lunacy -- kind of the
> Japanese breeder reactor program. Hydrogen produced by other means and then
> used in a fuel cell has much more promise.
>
> In the cycle Fred described, electrolysis is 65% efficient, bulk storage
> and vehicle on board storage are both 65% efficient, and the ICE is only 18%.
>
> A fuel cell is roughly 50% efficient.

Which means that you can get 0.5*51,593 btu = 25,797 btu = 7.56 kw-hr electrical
output/lb H2.

> "Advanced Technology" electrolysis
> and gas storage are both projected at 75% efficient.

Those DOE Lab "projections" have been around for 50 years.  :-)
> Combining advanced
> techniques, from fossil fuel => electricity => fuel cell it ends up taking
> 12.9 units of energy to produce 1 unit of vehicle propulsion, which still
> makes no economic sense. Other techniques such as natural gas => hydrogen
> or even gasoline => hydrogen on-board reformulating have more promise.

I think Veep Cheney has his eye on Wyoming Coal gasification to produce Water Gas (CO
+ H2). This was used in the late 1800s for heating and lighting. Except now there is a
shift catalyst to convert the CO:

CO + H2O --->  CO2 + H2 + Heat

Overall this will use about 6.0 tons of coal to produce
a ton of H2 and 22 tons of CO2. Plus mercury and other
heavy metals to pollute the air.

Also CO + H2 over a Nickel (hydrogenation catalyst) with a molecular sieve produces
pipeline quality Methane,
SNG.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> - Jed
>

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:02:21 +1000
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:37:02 -0400:
[snip]
>improvements. If the U.S. is incapable of doing this, as our political 
>leaders apparently believe, then we can buy all the technology we need from 
>our economic rivals, who manage to squeeze three times more GDP out of 
>their fuel than we get out of ours.
>
>- Jed
[snip]
Hi Jed,

It occurs to me that the ratio you mention would probably be affected by
population density, in as much as lower density leads to longer travel
distances and consequently higher fuel consumption.
IOW the lower population density of the US could be the main reason for
the lower efficiency, rather than any inherent local failing.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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Subject: Re: Hyrogen fuel economics
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: Hyrogen fuel economics

Mike Carrell wrote:


> What the biomass calculations seem to leave out is the capital and energy
> necessary to produce the biomass.

Ever been around a combine or corn harvester Mike?

For every bushel of wheat or corn (60 pounds or 56 pounds) there are 60 and 56 pounds
of biomass wastes
thrown on the ground to air oxidize back to CO2.

These could be collected and processed with the same logistics as the food crops.

I suggest that you do a web search on biomass gasification and energy farming.  :-)


>You are basically using plants (how many
> square miles?) as solar energy converters, and overlooking the very strong
> temptation to use fertilizers to maximize the plant growth.

Yep a nuclear reactor 93 million miles away and no nuclear wastes to contend with.
Where do you think those
fossil fuels came from?


> And where will
> the fertilizer come from?
It's called ash, Mike. And Legme crop rotation can handle the fixed nitrogen problem.

>Petroleum, and the efficiency of conversion to
> biomass fuel is apt to be low. And have we estimated the energy investment
> to plant, cultivate, harvest and transport the biomass to the point of use?

You're asking questions there were asked and answered decades ago.
>
> As for windmills at the local filling station, I doubt that my township
> would tolerate three windmills at the local intersection where there are
> three gas stations.

How many cellular phone transponders will your township tolerate.  :-)

>And how about the energy density available from the
> local breeze? The fatal flaw with pure electric cars is the over-150 mile
> trip when you have to recharge. You can fill your tank with gasoline in five
> minutes, but it would take much longer to recharge your batteries; your
> would have a large electrical substation to supply the power demand of a
> bunch of cars at the turnpike stop. As for swapping batteries, you paid good
> bucks for the one you brought, what guarantee do you have that the one you
> picked up won't die on you?
>
> We don't have a good system for the transportation of hydrogen, even storing
> it in your car. As for pipelines, hydrogen has a reputation for being very
> difficult to contain. The energy density of a mile of hydrogen pipeline is
> apt to be much less than that same mile filled with gasoline or methanol.

Cynic.  :-)

Regards, Frederick
>
> Mike Carrell
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 18:30:49 2001
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:28:40 EDT
Subject: The latest on gravity control and LLNR
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I tied my ideas into Schrodinger's wave equation.  This is another advance.

http://www.members.aol.com/fznidarsic/schrod.html


Visit my html

Frank Znidarsic


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>I tied my ideas into Schrodinger's wave equation. &nbsp;This is another advance.
<BR>
<BR>http://www.members.aol.com/fznidarsic/schrod.html
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Visit my html
<BR>
<BR>Frank Znidarsic
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 18:53:33 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <rhf rhfweb.com>
To: "prj" <prj mail.msen.com>, "vortex" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
Subject: New Age Town Designs, Free Energy,  Force Fields, & Support, Recommenations, & Donations
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:25:47 -0700
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I am presently seeking donations, designs, and support for the
design and implementation  of a New Age Small Town with
New Age technologies such as free energy,  privacy force fields,
and other self sustaining and clean environmentally
friendly technologies. I am already very close to developing
free energy technologies and  force fields. I am looking for some
money to hire  an architect to design a self sustaining small town
which may utilize new age technologies.  If I complete the architectural
designs then I would seek donations to build the town in a friendly country
such as in Canada or Scotland or the U.S. I may file international patents
to allow free technologies to be used in the town. It is my goel to give the
world a new hope by building such a town for others see and copy in their
own countries, to help save the environment and the future of humanity.
For further information on my present plans please check out my web site at
www.rhfweb.com\newage.html.

 * Any donations recieved for the New Age Town are not tax deductable
since they are not for nonprofit purposes and would be filed under the New
Age Media Productions Company at www.rhfweb.com\newage.html which is a for
profit organization and not under the Radiation Health Foundation at
www.rhfweb.com
which is tax excempt for non profit purposes for new energy and radiation
research.

 If you are interested in making donations or have comments, recommendation,
or requests about any of the above programs please send me an email to
mailto:tom rhfweb.com
Thank you!

Respectively,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
RHF Buisness web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Media Productions at
http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Email: tom rhfweb.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 19:51:31 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Ammonia Fuel Cells
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:46:37 -0500
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A relatively inexpensive way to store hydrogen is to use the Haber ammonia synthesis
process that produces megatons of anhydrous ammonia (and Urea) for agricultural
fertilizer and industrial use:

 3 H2 + N2 --->  2 NH3  (liquid under pressure) + heat
  6 lb.   28 lb.         34 lb.

For agricultural use, the ammonia is stored in tanks, with some tanks mounted on
wheels and towed to the fields
where the NH3 is injected into the soil.

I found a few ammonia fuel cell references on the web.

There are ammonia decomposition catalysts that reverse the Haber reaction.

All in all ammonia is environmentally friendly, and judging by the odor around an
outdoor privy you don't
have any problem detecting it before it reaches toxic levels.

Regards,   Frederick









From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 20:47:50 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <bf.f5f35a2.2856ea65 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:45:41 EDT
Subject:  Buy into Pulsed Plasma international patents
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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 Buy into Pulsed Plasma international patents

 
On 6/20/01 is the deadline for the international patents on my Pulsed 
Plasma device.  After that date I loose the priority rights to  
international protection.  Here is the offer plain and simple.  The 
total expected cost to finalize patents in the 18 states making up 
the European group is expected to be between $24,000 and $39,000. 
Anyone or any group that accepts the responsibility of these payments 
to the successful issue of such patents (Directly to the London law 
firm - not to me) shall be assigned 10% of those international 
patents.  Should other countries be chosen for filing, the cost is 
more and set by the PCT and the law firms charges.  I am not asking 
for any money, just assistance in filing for protection of this 
unusual invention.
The fee required by 6/20/01 by the firm is $5600, should you pay this 
and later decide not to proceed - your loss is limited to that filing 
fee based on European states.

If you have any questions please email.

Should 6 people want to each invest $1000 each to secure the right to 
proceed, that is up to you.  The offer self terminates at the end of 
business, 6/20/01 London time, if they do not have the initial 
payment.  I will forward their letter to any that ask for it for 
review.

~$40,000 buys 10% of the European rights to the most unusual patent 
in over 30 years, Philo Farnsworths IEC Fusion was pretty strange way 
back then.  But his original idea was from ~1939.

Best Regards,
Chris Arnold
information is at:
http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 21:19:44 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hyrogen fuel economics
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:18:36 GMT
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On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:18:50 -0700, "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
wrote:

>As for windmills at the local filling station, I doubt that my township
>would tolerate three windmills at the local intersection where there are
>three gas stations. 

And if there's no other economic choice?

>We don't have a good system for the transportation of hydrogen, even storing
>it in your car. As for pipelines, hydrogen has a reputation for being very
>difficult to contain. The energy density of a mile of hydrogen pipeline is
>apt to be much less than that same mile filled with gasoline or methanol.

Again, what if there's no other economic choice?

We may find out in a decade or two (unless T. Gold's right).

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 11 21:35:57 2001
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 <cqmait0fka1k5vthln05sld8e9b43v5384 4ax.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:33:42 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Atlanta traffic problem solved
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Reminds me of a Dilbert comic strip I saw once - a computer 
superstore salesman is pitching his wares: "... and this computer 
over here is really great because it never crashes - as long as you 
don't try to run software on it."

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 01:23:45 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:51:28 -0400:
[snip]
>Here's the image:
>
>http://www.icnet.net/users/chrish/cropcir.html
>
>So, if someone is really trying to communicate with cereal
>geometry, then what do all these other images mean??
>
>http://www.lovely.clara.net/homepg.html
>
>Terry
They're all physics lessons. Some represent the inner workings of the
atom.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 03:10:04 2001
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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 05:08:39 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: reactionless drives?
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>
>
>Perhaps an analogy will make the point more clearly. Suppose a bum is
inside a locked railway car, which is sitting on a frictionless track. He

>the opposite end of the car, the entire displacement of the car will be
>undone.
>

Hum, OTOH, Bob Cook says that his drive does exactly that.

I just finished reading through your post on the etherons Mitchell. 
It's an interesting theory, however I can't see how I'm going to be 
able to get along without the right hand and left hand rule. I'm 
going to forward your post to Pat Bailey and see what he thinks about 
this.

Your theory reminds me of John E W Keeley's theories. have you seen 
his drawings explaining his theories about particles that are smaller 
than electrons? See www.svpvril.com .

I can't help thinking that if Cook is right, and I have reason to 
believe that he is, then the drive has to be reacting against 
something. IMHO, that something has to be the Aether. Also IMHO, we 
have to get to the bottom of this. If Cook is right, we need a new 
paradigm of physics. Once we have that we can move forward, not until.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 03:10:06 2001
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Subject: time dilation fields
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Fellow Vortexians;

Last night Art Bell replayed an interview with Dr. David Anderson. of 
time travel associates. http://www.time-travel.com/

The doctor has a laboratory on Long Island in which he has created a 
plasma generator which produces a time dilation. According to him, a 
clock placed in the field will go 3 times as fast as a similar clock 
outside of it. The field is produced by intense magnetic fields 
interacting with a rotating electromagnetic field and a laser ring 
requiring 12 lasers. The lasers ionize the gas which opens the field.

During the interview a young woman named Ann called in and asked him 
some very interesting questions, She wanted to know if he was using a 
Squid interface, he was not. She wanted to know how he was 
controlling the field, He replied that it was controled by 6 injector 
sensor arrays. which had 43 data points from the 6 arrays which feed 
data into the control system. She wanted to know if he was 
experiencing residual field difusion. He replied that they were. He 
went on to say that when they retard the time field the field becomes 
unstable. The inner field becomes unstable and the field collapses. 
This spreading of the inner shell destroys biological organisms in 
the field.   The control mechanism is based on the data collected by 
interferometers which feeds data into the control system. The biggest 
problem that they are having is modeling the field. Ann started 
questioning him about fuzzy logic and some other mathematical 
modeling system, but Art cut her off. That's what I hate most about 
Art, is his cutting callers off.

During the February interview ( when it was run live ) I heard this 
caller and I am pleased to be able to share this interaction with you 
all.

What follows was in the first part of the interview.

Once the field is established the amount of energy required to 
maintain it decreases. The reason for this is not understood.

The plasma surrounding the field produces a doppler effect which 
distorts the color of the object in the field until it turns black.

During the mathematical theorizing about this, the doctor solved the 
problem of satellite's failure to be where they were predicted to be. 
I don't know if this explains the present position of the Voyager's 
or not. The doctor's theorizing accounts for frame dragging which I 
would assume would only apply in the vicinity of a planet. Frame 
dragging is the distortion in space which occurs in the vicinity of a 
planetary body as a result of it's rotation. The magnetic field of 
the planet contributes to this effect too. I've been looking for an 
explanation of frame dragging.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 06:03:16 2001
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Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 06:59:22 -0500
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Hi Keith.

While Mitchell Jones is busy slinging mud in a boxcar, could you see your way clear to
set your ignitron on a digital scale and fire it using one or two 12 volt storage
batteries?
The 10 to 20 volt drop across the ignitron should allow
at least 300 amperes for a few minutes or so before you have to cool it.

At 300 amperes you Might get about 180 grams of weight increase, or you might not get
any, in which case you can use it as a hot water heater.  :-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 07:31:42 2001
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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:30:45 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Atlanta traffic problem solved
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>. . . we can buy all the technology we need from
> >our economic rivals, who manage to squeeze three times more GDP out of
> >their fuel than we get out of ours.
> >
>It occurs to me that the ratio you mention would probably be affected by
>population density, in as much as lower density leads to longer travel
>distances and consequently higher fuel consumption.

Longer travel and greater use of automobiles is a contributing factor, but 
it cannot explain the entire difference. Compare the percentages:

                         U.S.    Japan
Industry                38%     50%
Transportation  26%     19%

In China, population density is high and automobile ownership is much lower 
than the U.S. or Europe, but their productivity is lower than the U.S. The 
numbers are:

Europe and Japan 5,100 Btu per dollar of GDP
U.S. 12,600 Btu per dollar
India 27,200 Btu per dollar
China 30,000 Btu per dollar

China in 1980 70,000 Btu per dollar

See: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/japanenv.html#ENERGY

Note: the U.S. numbers have recently been revised upward, from 11,600 to 
12,600, and U.S. consumption of renewable energy fell by 1%. The U.S. is 
sliding into third world status in energy technology.


>IOW the lower population density of the US could be the main reason for 
>the lower efficiency, rather than any inherent local failing.

There is no local failing. The failure is at the top, in government and 
industry. Other countries have active policies to avoid being robbed by 
OPEC; the U.S. rolls over and plays dead, except when it is time to fight 
another war for oil. Our energy policies are from the stone age -- 
literally! Whack other people over the head and grab what you want, instead 
of finding cheaper, easier ways to make it yourself. The U.S. could easily 
be the world's largest and most profitable energy exporter, but we choose 
to import instead, and hand over our wealth to oil moguls in the middle 
east and Venezuela.

The U.S. highway system, particularly in Atlanta, could easily be 
transformed into the fastest and most convenient transportation system on 
earth, with just a few minor changes, especially electronic tolls varying 
by time of day, and computerized jitney services. It would not cost 
anything; it would save tons of money, and millions of hours of frustration 
suffered by people stuck in traffic. We do not do it because people lack 
imagination, they are not willing to try something new, and they do not 
want to "pay" for something they think they are getting for "free." In 
fact, they are paying far too much, when you factor in the cost in 
frustration, lost wages and pollution. This is a problem we have brought 
upon ourselves by our own stupidity, for no reason, with no compensating 
benefit to anyone except the oil companies.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 09:04:26 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <dc.7a2b212.2857967e aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:59:58 EDT
Subject: For Atomic Fusion Specialists Only
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I have specific questions that only Fusion specialists Can answer. 

If there are any on this list, (and not self taught Library experts) I would 
like to talk to you. I will not post my questions to you on this or any other 
list - You decide if I am off my nut, but first I explain what the device is 
doing. When you say there is to be no further contact - contact terminates.

If you are NOT a Fusion expert, please sit this one out.

Best Wishes,
Chris Arnold
http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 12:12:19 2001
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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:05:36 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Article about energy and food
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Here is a thought-provoking article:

Robert Vale & Michael Pritchard, "The Real Cost of Food - A White Paper, An 
analysis of the environmental impact of food production," , Sustainable 
Design Research Centre, University of Auckland, June 08, 2001

http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=193

Witty quote:

On the basis of these Australian figures, the total energy embodied in the 
current New Zealand diet represents 150 to 210 PJ (actual consumption of 21 
PJ multiplied by embodied energy factor of 7.2 to 10). The national primary 
energy consumption for New Zealand in 1996 was 665 PJ (Ministry for the 
Environment, 1997b). If between a quarter and a third of the energy used by 
the country each year goes to feeding ourselves, how far have we progressed 
from the hunter/gatherer stage?


I have not checked the numbers, but I suspect the estimate of embodied 
energy in food is too high. I doubt that 25 to 30% of energy is used in 
food production and transportation. Now that we eat grapes grown in South 
America this surprisingly high number is plausible.

Some other minor quibbles:

Rainwater from most roofs already goes to irrigate surrounding gardens and 
lawns. If it runs off into the gutter, it goes to the sewer system and ends 
up in the drinking water of people downriver. (Let's not kid ourselves 
about what we drink.)

Household composting of food garbage in urban areas is not practical, or 
safe. My wife did it for many years, but she was forced to stop by an 
infestation of mice after the cat died. One can compost grass clippings, 
leaves, and inedible garbage such as pea pods or coffee grounds. A large 
vegetable garden also invites vermin, along with innumerable squirrels, 
rabbits, raccoons, opossums and children, even in urban Atlanta. Opossums 
have very small brains compared to placental mammals, but not only do they 
eat vegetables, they somehow managed to eat our pond fish and kill six 
chickens. It might have been a raccoon, but I blame the 'possums.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 14:19:33 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
Subject: Re: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:20:37 -0700
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Matt; Perhaps force can be classically defined as mass x accelleration =
or velocity; Well if neutrinos have mass and have above speed of light =
velocity or acceleration then possibly gravity can be created of =
affected. Neutrino amplifiers? Could be key to anti-gravity and faster =
than speed of light propulsion., or perhaps even time manuplation. Sound =
far out? Maybe not even good science fiction? All I know is my 2 =
inventor contacts have powerful neutrino electric generating devices. =
And they each refer to the key energy particle as a form of neutrino. =
Maybe I can arrange a demonstration for some deep pocket, anti =
establishment types? Anybody know of such a person or company?    Bruce=20
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Matthew Rogers <matt accelnet.net>
    To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
    Date: Saturday, June 09, 2001 7:08 PM
    Subject: RE: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
   =20
   =20
    Thomas,=20

    =20

    Gravity is a force not a particle. Gravity is the weakest force in =
the universe. Gravity can exert its force over long distances at the =
speed of light. Gravity is the only attractive force that has no known =
particle associated with it.=20

    =20

    When the particle is found that generates the field that causes =
gravity and inertia ( the two are equal ) then science will unify all =
known forces.

    =20

    Neutrinos have very little interaction with matter, however there is =
many of them. If they even have a little mass, then they would have a =
large effect of a source of mass on the structure of the universe, but =
still not have any effect on us beings of matter.

    =20

    Even the dense core of a Neutron star is essentially transparent to =
neutrino=92s.

    =20

    Only a Black hole would have an effect on a neutrino with a 100% =
probability, because of the curvature of space is less than one. Thus a =
neutrino is treated like any Speed of light particle and prevented from =
escapeing the event horizion. If you could create a beam of any speed of =
light particle and beam it at a black hole, nothing would come out, not =
even the wispy neutrino.

    =20

    The worlds most sensitive Neutrino observatory in Japan detected =
less than 10 neutrino events from the 1986a supernova, a galaxy away, =
even though trillions per square inch per second sleeted through our =
galaxy.

    =20

    Neutrino=92s may have mass, which means enough of them exert a =
gravitational force, but they would be just like any other matter with =
gravitational force.

    =20

    So what is the property of Mass, and why would different aspects of =
mass like inertial mass=3Dgravitational mass.

    That is still the unknown, and will be till we have a partical =
acceleration system powerful enough, or a computing system powerful =
enough on existing accelerators to detect the fields and particals that =
give matter mass and gravity.

    =20

    Do a search on the Higgs particle and the Higgs Field, and you will =
see that.

    =20

    Also consider that even though the mind may be powerful enough to =
visualize physics like Stephen Hawking, your electrical fields that your =
brain creates are several orders of magnitude less than what is required =
to influence matter around it.

    =20

    Consider, everything you do is an interaction with the strongest =
force in the universe.

    Matthew Rogers

    Prove it..

    =20

    -----Original Message-----
    From: ConexTom aol.com [mailto:ConexTom@aol.com]
    Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 7:46 PM
    To: vortex-l eskimo.com; DEACH@topica.com
    Cc: tom rhfweb.com
    Subject: Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue

    =20

    Subj: Fw: Candidate for universal gravitational glue=20
    Date: 6/2/01 11:41:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time=20
    From:    etimes teleport.com (Bruce Meland)=20
    To:    tom rhfweb.com=20
    CC:    conextom aol.com=20
   =20
    Hi Tom I believe some form of these neutrinos are the gravity =
particles. Bruce=20
   =20
   =20
    Candidate for universal gravitational glue=20
   =20
   =20
    UPI Science News Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT TAKAYAMA, Japan, June 5 =
(UPI) -=20
    Researchers say they have identifed what may be the unseen =
gravitational glue=20
    _ the so-called dark matter responsible in part for the evolution of =
the=20
    universe from the moment of its birth: neutrinos. A serious =
candidate for=20
    this glue, neutrinos are invisible, sub- atomic particles, created =
at the=20
    time of the Big Bang, that stream through the Earth, people and =
everything=20
    else unfettered. The groundbreaking discovery, announced Friday in =
Japan by=20
    an international team of scientists, was that neutrinos have mass. =
Because=20
    the particles fill the universe, scientists say, collectively they =
may have=20
    the force to reverse its expansive course to cause the ``Big =
Crunch.'' So=20
    fundamental a discovery, they said at Neutrino '98, an international =
physics=20
    conference in Takayama, Japan, could help explain baffling puzzles =
about the=20
    nature of matter and the formation of the universe after the Big =
Bang. The=20
    discovery was the result of a two year, $100 million experiment by =
an=20
    international team of scientists. Dr. John G. Learned, a University =
of Hawaii=20
    physicist and one of the lead researchers, told United Press =
International,=20
    the discovery means neutrinos may account for the many gravitational =
forces=20
    apparent in astronomical observations that no one has ever been able =
to=20
    explain. ``This will go down as perhaps the one most important =
discovery in=20
    science in the decade,'' he said Thursday. ``It means that neutrinos =
are=20
    surely one of the more massive components of the universe.'' Dr. =
David=20
    Casper, a University of California-Irvine physicist and another team =
member,=20
    agreed, asserting the finding will help scientists understand ``how =
galaxies=20
    and other large scale structures in the universe interact =
gravitationally.''=20
    Until now, he said, scientists have been puzzled about the movements =
of the=20
    heavens, knowing that something was missing from their calculations, =
and=20
    describing the unknown variable as ``dark'' or ``missing'' matter. =
This=20
    discovery, Learned said, suggests that neutrinos have an aggregate=20
    gravitational influence that may eventually be sufficient to reverse =
the=20
    universal expansion triggered by the Big Bang and cause a ``Big =
Crunch.''=20
    ``The discovery of neutrino mass is intimately connected with both =
the=20
    origins and ultimate fate of the universe,'' Casper said. ``We =
suspected but=20
    did not know that neutrinos had tiny mass. We didn't think of them =
as making=20
    up a part of our world, but in fact, the universe is full of =
neutrinos. Every=20
    cubic centimeter of the universe has about 200 or so neutrinos, =
which are=20
    left over from the Big Bang.'' The finding may also fill in the =
blanks in=20
    equations aimed at solving how particles acquire mass, ``one of the =
deepest=20
    unsolved questions of particle physics,'' Casper said. ``This will =
help=20
    astronomers understand something that puzzles them greatly _ why is =
there=20
    more gravitational force than they expect from the amount of stuff =
the can=20
    see out there,'' Casper added. Learned says neutrinos, until now =
thought to=20
    have no mass, may on the whole turn out to make up ``most of the =
mass of the=20
    universe. '' The discovery was made at Super-Kamiokande Observatory, =
the=20
    world's largest elementary particle detector, northwest of Tokyo. =
Scientists=20
    from 23 institutions in the United States, Japan, Poland and Korea =
took part.=20
    The team included Dr. Henry Sobel, also of UC-Irvine. Neutrinos, =
similar to=20
    electrons, have long been known to be a fundamental constituent of =
nature.=20
    But unlike electrons, neutrinos carry no electric charge, and thus =
can pass=20
    unimpeded through great distances in matter. This property, along =
with their=20
    invisibility, has made them extremely difficult to observe. =
Scientists have=20
    suspected for years that neutrinos might have a very small, but =
non-zero,=20
    mass, but never before could prove it. Casper said the discovery =
won't=20
    ``change the life of the average Joe'' but has profound implications =
for=20
    physicists and astrophysicsts. The finding also suggests, he said, =
that the=20
    gravitational influence of neutrinos may have been a catalyst for =
the=20
    collapse of the diffuse primordial gas into more dense regions that=20
    eventually spawned galaxies, stars and planets. UC-Irvine issued a =
statement=20
    on behalf of its scientists asserting that the experiment had =
yielded=20
    ``results that are outside the standard theory of particle physics, =
which=20
    describes the fundamental constituents of matter and their =
interactions.=20
    Until now, there has been no firm evidence that neutrinos possess =
mass.'' The=20
    evidence was based upon studies of neutrinos created when cosmic =
rays bombard=20
    the Earth's upper atmosphere, producing storms of secndary particles =
that=20
    rain down constantly from the heavens. Most neutrinos pass through =
the entire=20
    planet unscathed, but have been detected passing through the =
Super-Kamiokande=20
    group's 50,000-ton tank of purified water 1,000 meters beneath the =
surface.=20
    The scientists noticed the neutrinos oscillated, or changed from one =
type of=20
    neutrino to another, something that could occur only if they have =
mass. They=20
    say in a joint statement that neutrinos ``must now be incorporated =
into the=20
    theoretical models of the structure of matter and that =
astrophysicists=20
    concerned with finding the 'missing' or 'dark matter' in the =
universe must=20
    now consider the neutrino as a serious candidate.'' Neutrinos were =
created in=20
    vast quantities in the first instants after the Big Bang and =
permeate the=20
    universe, Casper said. ``Because these leftover neutrinos are =
everywhere,=20
    even if they have a tiny mass, when you add them up, it adds up to =
something=20
    significant in terms of how galaxies and large scale structures in =
the=20
    universe gravitationally interact,'' Casper said. ``You have a =
zillion things=20
    which by themselves have almost no mass, but when you add them all =
up, they=20
    can have a large scale. This may now guide theorists in answering =
the big=20
    question _ why does everything have mass?'' Learned said, ``this is=20
    fundamental science on the most basic scale,'' and its practical =
applications=20
    might not become evident for many years. Copyright 1998 by United =
Press=20
    International All rights reserved=20
   =20
    Respectively,=20
   =20
    President, Thomas Clark=20
    Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,=20
    RHF Business web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/=20
    Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal=20
    New Age Media Productions at=20
    http://www.rhfweb.com/newage=20
    Email: tom rhfweb.com=20


------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C0F329.530C5620
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue style=3D"tab-interval: =
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vLink=3Dblue>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Matt; Perhaps force can =
be=20
classically defined as mass x accelleration or velocity; Well if =
neutrinos have=20
mass and have above speed of light velocity or acceleration then =
possibly=20
gravity can be created of affected. Neutrino amplifiers? Could be key to =

anti-gravity and faster than speed of light propulsion., or perhaps even =
time=20
manuplation. Sound far out? Maybe not even good science fiction? All I =
know is=20
my 2 inventor contacts have powerful neutrino electric generating =
devices. And=20
they each refer to the key energy particle as a form of neutrino. Maybe =
I can=20
arrange a demonstration for some deep pocket, anti establishment types? =
Anybody=20
know of such a person or company?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bruce </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Matthew Rogers &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:matt accelnet.net">matt@accelnet.net</A>&gt;<BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Dat=
e:=20
    </B>Saturday, June 09, 2001 7:08 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>RE: Candidate =
for=20
    universal gravitational glue<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV class=3DSection1>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Thomas,<O:P></O:P>=20
    </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Gravity=20
    is a force not a particle. Gravity is the weakest force in the =
universe.=20
    Gravity can exert its force over long distances at the speed of =
light.=20
    Gravity is the only attractive force that has no known particle =
associated=20
    with it.<O:P></O:P> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">When=20
    the particle is found that generates the field that causes gravity =
and=20
    inertia ( the two are equal ) then science will unify all known=20
    forces.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Neutrinos=20
    have very little interaction with matter, however there is many of =
them. If=20
    they even have a little mass, then they would have a large effect of =
a=20
    source of mass on the structure of the universe, but still not have =
any=20
    effect on us beings of matter.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Even=20
    the dense core of a Neutron star is essentially transparent to=20
    neutrino&rsquo;s.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Only=20
    a Black hole would have an effect on a neutrino with a 100% =
probability,=20
    because of the curvature of space is less than one. Thus a neutrino =
is=20
    treated like any Speed of light particle and prevented from =
escapeing the=20
    event horizion. If you could create a beam of any speed of light =
particle=20
    and beam it at a black hole, nothing would come out, not even the =
wispy=20
    neutrino.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">The=20
    worlds most sensitive Neutrino observatory in Japan detected less =
than 10=20
    neutrino events from the 1986a supernova, a galaxy away, even though =

    trillions per square inch per second sleeted through our=20
    galaxy.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Neutrino&rsquo;s=20
    may have mass, which means enough of them exert a gravitational =
force, but=20
    they would be just like any other matter with gravitational=20
    force.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">So=20
    what is the property of Mass, and why would different aspects of =
mass like=20
    inertial mass=3Dgravitational =
mass.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">That=20
    is still the unknown, and will be till we have a partical =
acceleration=20
    system powerful enough, or a computing system powerful enough on =
existing=20
    accelerators to detect the fields and particals that give matter =
mass and=20
    gravity.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Do a=20
    search on the Higgs particle and the Higgs Field, and you will see=20
    that.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Also=20
    consider that even though the mind may be powerful enough to =
visualize=20
    physics like Stephen Hawking, your electrical fields that your brain =
creates=20
    are several orders of magnitude less than what is required to =
influence=20
    matter around it.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Consider,=20
    everything you do is an interaction with the strongest force in the=20
    universe.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><!--[if supportFields]><span =
class=3DEmailStyle18><font =0Dsize=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:=0D12.0pt;font-family:Arial'=
><span style=3D'mso-element:field-begin'></span><span =
=0Dstyle=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</span>AUTOTEXTLIST \s &quot;E-mail =
=0DSignature&quot; <span =
style=3D'mso-element:field-separator'></span></span></font></span><![endi=
f]--><FONT=20
    color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: navy">Matthew =
Rogers</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
    color=3Dnavy><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: navy; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><FONT color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Prove it..</SPAN></FONT><FONT =

    color=3Dnavy><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: navy; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><!--[if supportFields]><span =
class=3DEmailStyle18><font =0Dsize=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:=0D12.0pt;font-family:Arial'=
><span =
style=3D'mso-element:field-end'></span></span></font></span><![endif]--><=
SPAN=20
    class=3DEmailStyle18><FONT color=3Dnavy face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT =
color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">-----Original=20
    Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">From:</SPAN></B>=20
    ConexTom aol.com [mailto:ConexTom@aol.com]<BR><B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Saturday, June 02, 2001 =
7:46=20
    PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> =
vortex-l eskimo.com;=20
    DEACH topica.com<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">Cc:</SPAN></B>=20
    tom rhfweb.com<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>=20
    Fwd: Candidate for universal gravitational glue</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
    color=3Dnavy><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: navy; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT color=3Dnavy =

    face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: navy; =
FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
    color=3Dnavy><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: navy; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT =
color=3Dblack face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">Subj:=20
    <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Fw: Candidate for universal =
gravitational=20
    glue</SPAN></B> <BR>Date: 6/2/01 11:41:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time=20
    <BR><I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">From:&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
    etimes teleport.com (Bruce Meland) <BR>To:&nbsp; &nbsp; =
tom rhfweb.com=20
    <BR>CC:&nbsp; &nbsp; conextom aol.com <BR></SPAN></I><BR>Hi Tom I =
believe=20
    some form of these neutrinos are the gravity particles. Bruce=20
    <BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dblack face=3DArial FAMILY =3D =
SANSSERIF><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT =
color=3Dblack=20
    face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN></FONT><B><FONT=20
    color=3Dblack face=3DArial size=3D6 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 24pt; =
FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Candidate=20
    for universal gravitational glue <BR><BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></B><FONT =

    color=3Dblack face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">UPI =
Science News=20
    Thursday June 4 9:34 PM EDT TAKAYAMA, Japan, June 5 (UPI) - =
<BR>Researchers=20
    say they have identifed what may be the unseen gravitational glue =
<BR>_ the=20
    so-called dark matter responsible in part for the evolution of the=20
    <BR>universe from the moment of its birth: neutrinos. A serious =
candidate=20
    for <BR>this glue, neutrinos are invisible, sub- atomic particles, =
created=20
    at the <BR>time of the Big Bang, that stream through the Earth, =
people and=20
    everything <BR>else unfettered. The groundbreaking discovery, =
announced=20
    Friday in Japan by <BR>an international team of scientists, was that =

    neutrinos have mass. Because <BR>the particles fill the universe, =
scientists=20
    say, collectively they may have <BR>the force to reverse its =
expansive=20
    course to cause the ``Big Crunch.'' So <BR>fundamental a discovery, =
they=20
    said at Neutrino '98, an international physics <BR>conference in =
Takayama,=20
    Japan, could help explain baffling puzzles about the <BR>nature of =
matter=20
    and the formation of the universe after the Big Bang. The =
<BR>discovery was=20
    the result of a two year, $100 million experiment by an =
<BR>international=20
    team of scientists. Dr. John G. Learned, a University of Hawaii=20
    <BR>physicist and one of the lead researchers, told United Press=20
    International, <BR>the discovery means neutrinos may account for the =
many=20
    gravitational forces <BR>apparent in astronomical observations that =
no one=20
    has ever been able to <BR>explain. ``This will go down as perhaps =
the one=20
    most important discovery in <BR>science in the decade,'' he said =
Thursday.=20
    ``It means that neutrinos are <BR>surely one of the more massive =
components=20
    of the universe.'' Dr. David <BR>Casper, a University of =
California-Irvine=20
    physicist and another team member, <BR>agreed, asserting the finding =
will=20
    help scientists understand ``how galaxies <BR>and other large scale=20
    structures in the universe interact gravitationally.'' <BR>Until =
now, he=20
    said, scientists have been puzzled about the movements of the =
<BR>heavens,=20
    knowing that something was missing from their calculations, and=20
    <BR>describing the unknown variable as ``dark'' or ``missing'' =
matter. This=20
    <BR>discovery, Learned said, suggests that neutrinos have an =
aggregate=20
    <BR>gravitational influence that may eventually be sufficient to =
reverse the=20
    <BR>universal expansion triggered by the Big Bang and cause a ``Big=20
    Crunch.'' <BR>``The discovery of neutrino mass is intimately =
connected with=20
    both the <BR>origins and ultimate fate of the universe,'' Casper =
said. ``We=20
    suspected but <BR>did not know that neutrinos had tiny mass. We =
didn't think=20
    of them as making <BR>up a part of our world, but in fact, the =
universe is=20
    full of neutrinos. Every <BR>cubic centimeter of the universe has =
about 200=20
    or so neutrinos, which are <BR>left over from the Big Bang.'' The =
finding=20
    may also fill in the blanks in <BR>equations aimed at solving how =
particles=20
    acquire mass, ``one of the deepest <BR>unsolved questions of =
particle=20
    physics,'' Casper said. ``This will help <BR>astronomers understand=20
    something that puzzles them greatly _ why is there <BR>more =
gravitational=20
    force than they expect from the amount of stuff the can <BR>see out =
there,''=20
    Casper added. Learned says neutrinos, until now thought to <BR>have =
no mass,=20
    may on the whole turn out to make up ``most of the mass of the =
<BR>universe.=20
    '' The discovery was made at Super-Kamiokande Observatory, the =
<BR>world's=20
    largest elementary particle detector, northwest of Tokyo. Scientists =

    <BR>from 23 institutions in the United States, Japan, Poland and =
Korea took=20
    part. <BR>The team included Dr. Henry Sobel, also of UC-Irvine. =
Neutrinos,=20
    similar to <BR>electrons, have long been known to be a fundamental=20
    constituent of nature. <BR>But unlike electrons, neutrinos carry no =
electric=20
    charge, and thus can pass <BR>unimpeded through great distances in =
matter.=20
    This property, along with their <BR>invisibility, has made them =
extremely=20
    difficult to observe. Scientists have <BR>suspected for years that =
neutrinos=20
    might have a very small, but non-zero, <BR>mass, but never before =
could=20
    prove it. Casper said the discovery won't <BR>``change the life of =
the=20
    average Joe'' but has profound implications for <BR>physicists and=20
    astrophysicsts. The finding also suggests, he said, that the=20
    <BR>gravitational influence of neutrinos may have been a catalyst =
for the=20
    <BR>collapse of the diffuse primordial gas into more dense regions =
that=20
    <BR>eventually spawned galaxies, stars and planets. UC-Irvine issued =
a=20
    statement <BR>on behalf of its scientists asserting that the =
experiment had=20
    yielded <BR>``results that are outside the standard theory of =
particle=20
    physics, which <BR>describes the fundamental constituents of matter =
and=20
    their interactions. <BR>Until now, there has been no firm evidence =
that=20
    neutrinos possess mass.'' The <BR>evidence was based upon studies of =

    neutrinos created when cosmic rays bombard <BR>the Earth's upper =
atmosphere,=20
    producing storms of secndary particles that <BR>rain down constantly =
from=20
    the heavens. Most neutrinos pass through the entire <BR>planet =
unscathed,=20
    but have been detected passing through the Super-Kamiokande =
<BR>group's=20
    50,000-ton tank of purified water 1,000 meters beneath the surface. =
<BR>The=20
    scientists noticed the neutrinos oscillated, or changed from one =
type of=20
    <BR>neutrino to another, something that could occur only if they =
have mass.=20
    They <BR>say in a joint statement that neutrinos ``must now be =
incorporated=20
    into the <BR>theoretical models of the structure of matter and that=20
    astrophysicists <BR>concerned with finding the 'missing' or 'dark =
matter' in=20
    the universe must <BR>now consider the neutrino as a serious =
candidate.''=20
    Neutrinos were created in <BR>vast quantities in the first instants =
after=20
    the Big Bang and permeate the <BR>universe, Casper said. ``Because =
these=20
    leftover neutrinos are everywhere, <BR>even if they have a tiny =
mass, when=20
    you add them up, it adds up to something <BR>significant in terms of =
how=20
    galaxies and large scale structures in the <BR>universe =
gravitationally=20
    interact,'' Casper said. ``You have a zillion things <BR>which by =
themselves=20
    have almost no mass, but when you add them all up, they <BR>can have =
a large=20
    scale. This may now guide theorists in answering the big =
<BR>question _ why=20
    does everything have mass?'' Learned said, ``this is <BR>fundamental =
science=20
    on the most basic scale,'' and its practical applications <BR>might =
not=20
    become evident for many years. Copyright 1998 by United Press=20
    <BR>International All rights reserved <BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT =
color=3Dblack=20
    face=3DArial FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR>Respectively,=20
    <BR><BR>President, Thomas Clark <BR>Radiation Health Foundation =
(RHF) Inc.,=20
    <BR>RHF Business web site at: <A=20
    href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/">http://www.rhfweb.com/</A> =
<BR>Personal=20
    website at <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">http://www.rhfweb.com/personal</A=
>=20
    <BR>New Age Media Productions at <BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/newage">http://www.rhfweb.com/newage</A>=20
    <BR>Email: <A href=3D"mailto:tom rhfweb.com">tom@rhfweb.com</A>=20
    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dnavy><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: navy; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML=
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 14:47:21 2001
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Message-ID: <3B268F50.C4272A4C austininstruments.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:53:20 -0500
From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc.
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: prj <prj mail.msen.com>, "Thomas D. Clark" <tom@rhfweb.com>
Subject: Re: New Age Town Designs, Free Energy,  Force Fields, & Support, Recommenations, & Donations
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Thomas D. Clark wrote:
> 
> I am presently seeking donations, designs, and support for the
> design and implementation  of a New Age Small Town with
> New Age technologies such as free energy,  privacy force fields,
> and other self sustaining and clean environmentally
> friendly technologies.

---
Would you please elaborate?  That is, would you care to proffer what you
have on hand in terms of free energy and 'privacy force fields' and what
you mean by "self sustaining and clean environmentally
friendly technologies."?
---

> I am already very close to developing
> free energy technologies and  force fields. I am looking for some
> money to hire  an architect to design a self sustaining small town
> which may utilize new age technologies.

---
How close are you?  Would you care to describe the scope of your work
and why you feel you're on the brink of a breakthrough?

Which 'may' use new age technologies?  What, precisely, do you mean by
'new age technologies', and why do you feel the need to use the
qualifier, 'may'?
---
 
> If I complete the architectural
> designs then I would seek donations to build the town in a friendly country
> such as in Canada or Scotland or the U.S. I may file international patents
> to allow free technologies to be used in the town.

---
If the technologies are free, then what would be the point of filing
international patents?
Patents _resrict_ the free dissemination of technology, so your
statement that you would "file international patents to allow free
technology to be used in the town" is bogus.
---  

> It is my goel to give the
> world a new hope by building such a town for others see and copy in their
> own countries, to help save the environment and the future of humanity.
> For further information on my present plans please check out my web site at
> www.rhfweb.com\newage.html.

---
Your URL, according to my ISP, doesn't exist and neither, I suspect, do
your professed altruistic motives.  Please be assured that I will not
contribute to your "cause" and I will do everything within my power to
dissuade others from falling into your trap.
---

 
>  * Any donations recieved for the New Age Town are not tax deductable
> since they are not for nonprofit purposes and would be filed under the New
> Age Media Productions Company at www.rhfweb.com\newage.html which is a for
> profit organization and not under the Radiation Health Foundation at
> www.rhfweb.com
> which is tax excempt for non profit purposes for new energy and radiation
> research.
> 
>  If you are interested in making donations or have comments, recommendation,
> or requests about any of the above programs please send me an email to
> mailto:tom rhfweb.com
> Thank you!
> 
> Respectively,
> 
> President, Thomas Clark
> Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
> RHF Buisness web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
> Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
> New Age Media Productions at
> http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
> Email: tom rhfweb.com


---
It's difficult, considering the "don't flame" policy of this forum, to
refrain from trashing you in the way you deserve to be trashed.  It is
good, however, to be able to let you know (without rancor) how lame you
really are.
---

To email, please add "nospam" to the end of the subject text.

John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 14:53:19 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Lest we forget, membership drive
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:46:53 -0500
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We need more members!   With the "New Blood" on
vortex-l it's time for a membership drive.

http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry/tortoise/index.html

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 16:14:16 2001
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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:10:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bill Beaty?
In-Reply-To: <005501c0f1dd$069701c0$cb3dee3f default>
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On Sun, 10 Jun 2001, Nick Reiter wrote:

> 
> I think Charlie Ford's point is of high importance here - is everything OK
> with our venerable benefactor and guru, Bill B?

Maybe someone should try emailing me?


I've gotten sucked into playing with a new toy:  javascript 3D animation
in virtual online worlds.  The software is free, check it out:

   Adobe Atmosphere
   http://www.amasci.com/atmos.html


VERY cool for online education,  or holding online chat sessions about
devices rendered in 3D.



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 16:18:27 2001
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Subject: People going to the Keelynet conference saturday?
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Are any Vorts going to be at the "Keelynet Convergence 2001" this weekend?
It's in Dallas TX,  $130.

   KEELYNET CONF
   http://www.keelynet.com/knconf.htm



Remember:   dry ice + swimming pool = catastrophically reduced buoyancy
(and maybe reduced hotel residency too!)



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 17:07:38 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <knagel gis.net>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: A parable for Bruce Meland
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:47:33 -0700
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I am extremely busy trying to get our publication and any info I am allowed
to publish about neutrinovoltaics will be published in our next issue.   The
2 neutrinovoltaics inventors have independently come up with similar
technology. One is presently living in a Pacific Island and the other in the
midwest. I cannot divulge their technology even if i was given almost all
the details. One inventor got a lot of information from long lost Tesla
Notes and the other  figured it out by searching works by Hendershot, Keely
and Tesla. They are seeking rather large amounts of funding and are willing
to demonstrate the technology to the right partys. Some of the name calling
on this list is counterproductive and is indicitative of low level
technicians. A truce on this kind of activity would be in the best interest
of all concerned.
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
To: Bruce Meland <etimes teleport.com>
Cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 10:01 PM
Subject: RE: A parable for Bruce Meland


>Well Bruce, are you ready to provide us with some factual information
>about the increasing bizarre claims you've been making on vortex?
>Or more black helicopters, disappearing prototypes, mystery inventors...
>
>Jed pointed out the reality of suppression, but I'd like to add one
>more point. Disinformation can be spread about a subject to the point
>where it becomes impossible for any intelligent dialog to occur.
>I used to think such actions were orchestrated, but now feel
>it's an organic process. Perhaps an expression of Freud's Thanatos?
>
>Instead of making a lot of specious assumptions about me and the
>rest of the list members, how about some real information or
>discussion?
>
>K.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bruce Meland [mailto:etimes teleport.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 4:16 PM
>To: knagel gis.net; Vortex
>Subject: Re: A parable for Bruce Meland
>
>
>Keith you are the one that is nieve and probably some low level technician
>that is living in the past or with very regimented classic electrodynamics
>perceptions. I just happen to get around and have been networking with real
>inventors, not stuck in some little shop or garage cranking out printed
>circuit boards or the  stuck in corner of some  establishment   corp. shop.
>This technology has nothing to do with religion or a parable. Just some
>wizzard inventors, one with  a PHD in EE and good at origional work and not
>the regurgitaor type that ends up at some University. One of the wizzards
>was key developer of fiber optics.   Keith you just have blinders on! Bruce
>From: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
>To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Date: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:27 PM
>Subject: A parable for Bruce Meland
>
>
>>Hi All.
>>
>>Many moons ago, I had the experience of working with a Born
>>Again Christian. You know the type. Anyway, he kept trying
>>to convert the heathens in the office to the one true faith.
>>One day, the following exchange took place.
>>
>>Bob: "Blah Blah accept Jesus blah blah going to hell etc etc"
>>
>>Me: "Bob, do you mean to say that if I don't accept jesus I'm going to
>hell"
>>
>>Bob : "Yes!"
>>
>>Me: "OK. What about if I never heard of Jesus. Do I automatically go to
>>hell?"
>>
>>Bob: "uhhh, I suppose so yes"
>>
>>Me: "Hmm... What about babys, buddhists, etc."
>>
>>Bob: "uhmmmmmmm yeah"
>>
>>Me: "Damn Bob, that seems pretty cruel. Babies?"
>>
>>Bob: long pause...furrowed brow "OK, what happens is they go to limbo and
>>get judged
>> on individual merit"
>>
>>Me: "So, basically, what you're trying to do is maximize the number of
>souls
>> going to heaven, hence the prosteletizing?"
>>
>>Bob: "Yup"
>>
>>Me: "So if you succeed in convincing me, I go to heaven"
>>
>>Bob: sensing victory "Yes!"
>>
>>Me: "and if you fail, if your oratory skills are insufficient or your
>> logic is unappealing, or I feel bad 'cause my girlfriend fought
>> with me, and I don't accept this, I go to hell"
>>
>>Bob: "Uhmm Yeah."
>>
>>Me: "That's a lot of responsibility Bob. I may live a good life, but
>because
>> of your inability to argue a point, to present any factual data
>> to back up your claim, I'm damned to hell. Just for hearing you"
>>
>>Bob: Blinks.
>>
>>Me: "So it would seem, that the best way to maximize the number of good
>> souls in heaven, is to keep this a great secret. Don't tell anyone.
>> Then, we'll be judged on merit and not on your ability to argue,
>> which frankly is greatly lacking.
>>
>>Bob: Mouth opens.
>>
>>Me: "Already you've damned half the department to an eternity of torment.
>> Please stop."
>>
>>
>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 17:25:38 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "prj" <prj mail.msen.com>, "Thomas D. Clark" <tom@rhfweb.com>
Subject: Re: New Age Town Designs, Free Energy,  Force Fields, & Support, Recommenations, & Donations
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:09:23 -0700
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Hi John; At what locations in these countries do you have in mind?  Might be
best to visit the Methernitha Christain Community in the Swiss Alps. They
are the only community that has a  workable free energy device. I recommend
getting the  recently published book "The Search For Free Energy" by Keith
Tutt which has dedicated a whole chapter to the Thesta-Distatica overunity
device. In 1986 NASA offered a large sum of money for the secrets of the
device but they were turned down by the M. community.  Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: prj <prj mail.msen.com>; Thomas D. Clark <tom@rhfweb.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: New Age Town Designs, Free Energy, Force Fields, & Support,
Recommenations, & Donations


>Thomas D. Clark wrote:
>>
>> I am presently seeking donations, designs, and support for the
>> design and implementation  of a New Age Small Town with
>> New Age technologies such as free energy,  privacy force fields,
>> and other self sustaining and clean environmentally
>> friendly technologies.
>
>---
>Would you please elaborate?  That is, would you care to proffer what you
>have on hand in terms of free energy and 'privacy force fields' and what
>you mean by "self sustaining and clean environmentally
>friendly technologies."?
>---
>
>> I am already very close to developing
>> free energy technologies and  force fields. I am looking for some
>> money to hire  an architect to design a self sustaining small town
>> which may utilize new age technologies.
>
>---
>How close are you?  Would you care to describe the scope of your work
>and why you feel you're on the brink of a breakthrough?
>
>Which 'may' use new age technologies?  What, precisely, do you mean by
>'new age technologies', and why do you feel the need to use the
>qualifier, 'may'?
>---
>
>> If I complete the architectural
>> designs then I would seek donations to build the town in a friendly
country
>> such as in Canada or Scotland or the U.S. I may file international
patents
>> to allow free technologies to be used in the town.
>
>---
>If the technologies are free, then what would be the point of filing
>international patents?
>Patents _resrict_ the free dissemination of technology, so your
>statement that you would "file international patents to allow free
>technology to be used in the town" is bogus.
>---
>
>> It is my goel to give the
>> world a new hope by building such a town for others see and copy in their
>> own countries, to help save the environment and the future of humanity.
>> For further information on my present plans please check out my web site
at
>> www.rhfweb.com\newage.html.
>
>---
>Your URL, according to my ISP, doesn't exist and neither, I suspect, do
>your professed altruistic motives.  Please be assured that I will not
>contribute to your "cause" and I will do everything within my power to
>dissuade others from falling into your trap.
>---
>
>
>>  * Any donations recieved for the New Age Town are not tax deductable
>> since they are not for nonprofit purposes and would be filed under the
New
>> Age Media Productions Company at www.rhfweb.com\newage.html which is a
for
>> profit organization and not under the Radiation Health Foundation at
>> www.rhfweb.com
>> which is tax excempt for non profit purposes for new energy and radiation
>> research.
>>
>>  If you are interested in making donations or have comments,
recommendation,
>> or requests about any of the above programs please send me an email to
>> mailto:tom rhfweb.com
>> Thank you!
>>
>> Respectively,
>>
>> President, Thomas Clark
>> Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
>> RHF Buisness web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
>> Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
>> New Age Media Productions at
>> http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
>> Email: tom rhfweb.com
>
>
>---
>It's difficult, considering the "don't flame" policy of this forum, to
>refrain from trashing you in the way you deserve to be trashed.  It is
>good, however, to be able to let you know (without rancor) how lame you
>really are.
>---
>
>To email, please add "nospam" to the end of the subject text.
>
>John Fields,                   Austin Instruments, Inc.
>El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
>"I speak for my company"       http://www.austininstruments.com
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 18:37:15 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>, <conextom@aol.com>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: The Search For Free Energy - UK
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:19:53 -0700
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This book has a lot of info on the Swiss ML Converter=Thesta-Distatica free
energy machine. by the Christain Methernitha Community in the Swiss Alps.
>http://www.thesearchforfreeenergy.com
>
>THE SEARCH FOR FREE ENERGY
>A Scientific Tale Of Jealousy, Genius And Electricity
>by Keith Tutt
>Simon & Schuster, 2001, Hardcover
>ISBN: 0-684-86660-9 (368 pages, £18.99)
>NON-FICTION / POPULAR SCIENCE
>
>Foreword by Sir Arthur C. Clarke
>
>- Nikola Tesla - Electricity's Hidden Genius
>- T.H. Moray - Capturing the Energy of the Universe
>- The N-machine - Michael Faraday's Mysterious Legacy
>- A Secret in the Swiss Mountains - Paul Baumann and the Thesta-Distatica
>- Cold Fusion Comes of Age
>- Randell Mills - Blacklight's Power Struggle
>- Zero-point Physics and the Cosmic Free Lunch
>- Conspiracies, Charlatans and Sceptics
>- Envisaging a New Energy Future
>
>Author Information
>
>Keith Tutt studied psychology and philosophy at Bristol University before
>becoming a full-time writer in 1981. Since then he has written plays,
>screenplays and documentary scripts for television. Keith has also produced
>a number of science and environmental TV programmes for the BBC. In 1993 he
>was a winner of the prestigious BT Science Journalism of the Year Award for
>his documentary 'Killing Us Softly?' about the Sizewell 'B' nuclear power
>station. Keith lives in Norfolk, England, with his wife, BAFTA award
winning
>artist Hannah Giffard, and their three children.
>
>EDITORIAL REVIEW - What Simon and Schuster say about 'The Search for Free
>Energy'.
>
>The Search for Free Energy' reveals the revolutionary work of inventors and
>scientists who are developing clear and 'fuelless' new ways to produce the
>electricity we need for the twenty-first century and beyond. Here are the
>technologies that could drastically change the economic, political and
>environmental conditions of the world we live in for the better. If they
can
>be developed commercially, they offer almost costless energy, the end of
the
>oil economy and the 'democritisation' of electricity throughout the
>developed and underdeveloped world.
>
>Drawing on extensive and revealing new research, 'The Search for Free
>Energy' uncovers the extraordinary lives of the inventors and scientists
>behind these technologies and the power struggles that face those who
>challenge the scientific status quo. 'The Search for Free Energy' contains
>the elements of a dramatic conspiracy thriller in which greed, mendacity,
>murder, suicide, suppression, betrayal, jealousy, madness, and
misunderstood
>genius all play their full parts. It also investigates the complex
>psychology of invention and the claims that some inventors are either
>self-deluded mavericks or charlatans who aim to trick gullible investors
out
>of their savings.
>
>Most importantly, there are technologies here that offer to solve the
>planet's most serious problem: global warming and climate change caused by
>fossil fuel power plants and car emissions. Is the technological solution
to
>global warming contained within these pages?
>
>NEW SCIENTIST REVIEW - 28/4/2001
>
>'Everything Has a Price'
>
>'The Search for Free Energy: A Scientific Tale of Jealousy, Genius and
>Electricity' by Keith Tutt
>with a foreword by Sir Arthur C. Clarke.
>
>The Croatian-American inventor Nikola Tesla was seriously weird.  He
soothed
>his head with x-rays, attempted communication with Mars and proposed
>broadcasting power by wireless.  But however strange his approach, Telsa
was
>also the originator of the rotating magnetic field that led to the
>alternating current (AC) electric motor and three-phase AC - key
>technologies that shaped traditional electricity systems throughout the
20th
>century.
>
>Compared to Tesla, most of the dramatis personae in Keith Tutt's account of
>The Search for Free Energy seem reassuringly normal.  But to those who
>accept the conventions of modern physics their ideas are at least as weird
>as Telsa's.  Anyone even moderately acquainted with the first and second
>laws of thermodynamics or classical quantum theory is likely to back away
>hastily when offered devices that purport to yield more energy than they
>need to operate.
>
>But the inventors of the Radiant Energy Device, the N-machine, the
Thesta-Di
>statica, cold fusion and its variants, hydrinos, and zero-point energy
could
>hardly ask for a better intercessor than Tutt.  His vivid, level-headed and
>engrossing commentary is as entertaining as it is thought-provoking.
>
>Liberalisation and technical innovation are already raising fundamental
>questions about the future of electricity.  If the search that Tutt
>chronicles should happen to bear fruit, the future will be stranger still.
>
>(Read Gene Mallove's review in the new issue of Infinite Energy magazine on
>newsstands now.)
>
>Publicity:
>
>Nemah Kamar
>Simon & Schuster UK Ltd
>Africa House
>64 - 78 Kingsway
>London WC2B 6AH
>United Kingdom
>Tel: +44 (0)20 7316 1988
>Fax: +44 (0)20 7316 0332
>
>To order the book:
>
>Send $39.50 US (includes S&H) to:
>Lightpath Productions
>PO BOX 19,
>Bungay,
>Suffolk,
>NR35 2BX,
>England UK
>info thesearchforfreeenergy.com
>
>You can order directly online with British pounds:
>£26.50 (includes S&H) at:
>http://www.thesearchforfreeenergy.com/orderbody1.htm
>WORLPAY accepts MasterCard, Visa, Delta, Eurocard, Solo and Switch.
WORLDPAY
>is the provider of choice for many of the world's leading organisations
>including, Amnesty International, Princess Diana Memorial Fund, The
>Economist, Oxfam, Mars, UPS etc
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 19:06:04 2001
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I wish to go away for a few days, and wish to
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 19:12:52 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:17:33 -0400
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Hi Fred.

I could probably swing 1000A pretty easy and up
to 10000A if things look promising?
I don't have the batteries, add to the shopping
list. Better might be an electrolytic cap, probably
get an impulse in the millisecond region with what's
around.

6% change in weight? I'll need a balance along
with the pan scale, it can only do about 1000g.
I expect forces due to action between the current
carrying members will be substantial! Hmmm....

It's also fitted for water cooling, allowing for
extra rocket-engine-like appearance (smile).

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 7:59 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?


Hi Keith.

While Mitchell Jones is busy slinging mud in a boxcar, could you see your
way clear to
set your ignitron on a digital scale and fire it using one or two 12 volt
storage
batteries?
The 10 to 20 volt drop across the ignitron should allow
at least 300 amperes for a few minutes or so before you have to cool it.

At 300 amperes you Might get about 180 grams of weight increase, or you
might not get
any, in which case you can use it as a hot water heater.  :-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 21:31:12 2001
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Message-ID: <01C0F386.F2D05280.dequickert ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: How to disc-continue ?
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:30:39 -0700
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RTFM !!
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html
near bottom of page:

"To unsubscribe, send a *blank* message to:
            vortex-L-request eskimo.com
Put the single word "unsubscribe" in the subject line of the header.
No quotes around "unsubscribe," of course.


On Tuesday, June 12, 2001 6:56 PM, eximcon  wrote:
> I wish to go away for a few days, and wish to
> discontinue the Vortex mails for a few days,
> otherwise they will fill my mailbox and stop 
> important messages to be received. Will some 
> one guide me.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 22:24:11 2001
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Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:20:27 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: What happened to Horace Heffner?
Resent-Message-ID: <"lsm-i2.0.Ny.BZl9x" mx1>
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Is Horace just busy doing other things, or is he ill? I haven't seen a post
from him for a very long time. --MJ
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 22:24:26 2001
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 <v04011700b74963cdcc97 [207.8.127.169]>
 <v04011701b74ac823a136 [207.8.127.171]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:18:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: reactionless drives?
Resent-Message-ID: <"GAij23.0.Ox.6Zl9x" mx1>
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Thomas Malloy wrote:

>I just finished reading through your post on the etherons Mitchell.
>It's an interesting theory, however I can't see how I'm going to be
>able to get along without the right hand and left hand rule.

***{The best way to understand my model is to go through the description
line by line and state your questions and arguments. I will happily
respond, and when the process is done, I am confident you will no longer
need to rely on "rules of thumb" to gauge the direction of magnetic forces.
(One of the many tragedies of "modern" physics is that its victims have no
visual model of what magnetism is, and, as a result, are reduced to the
rote memorization of equations and of "rules of thumb." It is a sorry state
to be in, and one that it is worthwhile to escape from, even if
considerable mental effort is required.) --MJ}***

I'm
>going to forward your post to Pat Bailey and see what he thinks about
>this.
>
>Your theory reminds me of John E W Keeley's theories. have you seen
>his drawings explaining his theories about particles that are smaller
>than electrons? See www.svpvril.com.

***{I hadn't seen them until just now. That's some mighty strange stuff,
Kemosabe! :-) Anyway, for the record: all of my theories treat
entities/particles as fundamental, not waves. I consider waves to be a
manifestation of the aggregate behavior of particles. --MJ}***

>I can't help thinking that if Cook is right, and I have reason to
>believe that he is, then the drive has to be reacting against
>something. IMHO, that something has to be the Aether.

***{I know nothing about "Cook's drive," but I fully expect that, in the
future, propellers will be designed that push against the aether, thereby
making it possible to travel literally anywhere. --MJ}***

Also IMHO, we
>have to get to the bottom of this. If Cook is right, we need a new
>paradigm of physics. Once we have that we can move forward, not until.
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 22:48:22 2001
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 <v04011701b74ac823a136 [207.8.127.171]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:30:33 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
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>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mitchell Jones" <mjones jump.net>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 2:38 PM
>Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
>
>
>Mud slinging don't hack it, Mitchell. Do the experiment.  :-)
>
>Regards,  Frederick

***{I would be happy to try it, Fred, if I could see a difference between
doing so and trying to lift myself by pulling on my own bootstraps. If you
think there is a difference, I would appreciate it if you would explain
what the difference is. Seriously. --MJ}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Always strive to be accurate, even when it doesn't matter, so that you can
be accurate when it does matter." --Jude Acers

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 23:13:26 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Candidate for universal gravitational glue
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: Candidate for universal gravitational
glue</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="-1" color="#000000">it is a
wave</font>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>
<blockquote><br></blockquote>
<blockquote><font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#000080">Gravity is a
force not a particle.</font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote><br></blockquote>
<blockquote>Hum, I'm not qualified to comment, but the Japanese seem
to view it as a particle. As I understand it, the phenomena can be
viewed as either a wave of a particle.</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 23:13:59 2001
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Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:12:30 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Article about energy and food
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>ourselves, how far have we progressed from the hunter/gatherer stage?

I read someplace that agriculture consumes more fossil fuel energy 
than it produces. If this is true, so much for biomass coversion.

>water of people downriver. (Let's not kid ourselves about what we drink.)


Da!

>
>Household composting of food garbage in urban areas is not 
>practical, or safe. My wife did it for many years, but she was 
>forced to stop by an infestation of mice after the cat died.

That's why G-d created kittens!

>. Opossums have very small brains compared to placental mammals, but 
>not only do they eat vegetables, they somehow managed to eat our 
>pond fish and kill six chickens. It might have been a raccoon, but I 
>blame the 'possums.
>
>- Jed
Get a dog! A big terrier comes to mind, English Sheep Dog or that 
other dog breed that was breed to fight big cats.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 12 23:14:18 2001
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Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:12:30 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Lest we forget, membership drive
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>We need more members!   With the "New Blood" on
>vortex-l it's time for a membership drive.

I tell everyone with an interest in fringe science about this list

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 05:17:39 2001
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 05:58:05 2001
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Message-ID: <3B276334.453DD693 bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:57:24 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Subject: New Energy Funding
References: <004f01c0f391$ace3ed80$2a191ad8 oemcomputer>
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If they will demonstrate their technology is viable, Earthtech
can get them all the funds they need.  Possibly you should
contact Dr. Puthoff directly.

Regards,

Terry

Bruce Meland wrote:
> 
> I am extremely busy trying to get our publication and any info I am allowed
> to publish about neutrinovoltaics will be published in our next issue.   The
> 2 neutrinovoltaics inventors have independently come up with similar
> technology. One is presently living in a Pacific Island and the other in the
> midwest. I cannot divulge their technology even if i was given almost all
> the details. One inventor got a lot of information from long lost Tesla
> Notes and the other  figured it out by searching works by Hendershot, Keely
> and Tesla. They are seeking rather large amounts of funding and are willing
> to demonstrate the technology to the right partys. Some of the name calling
> on this list is counterproductive and is indicitative of low level
> technicians. A truce on this kind of activity would be in the best interest
> of all concerned.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 06:23:39 2001
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Message-ID: <3B276917.26B9782C powerup.com.au>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:22:31 +1000
From: David Hancock <dgh powerup.com.au>
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Subject: Quantum entanglement
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Two gas samples, each 10^12 cesium atoms, experimentally maintaining an
entangled spin state for 0.5ms. Is there something about Cs - the most
reactive metal, the most alkaline element - that makes this work?

http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0106057

David

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 07:31:36 2001
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Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:31:05 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Article about energy and food
In-Reply-To: <a0501040ab74ca70879e7 [205.215.192.231]>
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thomas malloy wrote:

>I read someplace that agriculture consumes more fossil fuel energy than it 
>produces. If this is true, so much for biomass coversion.

Biomass from agricultural byproducts makes a great deal of economic sense. 
For example, burning or gasifying peanut shells in Georgia or the waste 
from olive oil presses in Spain. Growing plants only for fuel makes less 
sense, although some crops can be grown without fertilizer or weeding. 
Harvesting wild plants for fuel is an outrage, except in places like 
Australia or parts of North America which must undergo periodic intense 
wildfires to maintain a healthy ecology. Converting edible U.S. corn to 
fuel is the stupidest, most inhuman energy producing scheme I have ever 
heard of. It means we starve people to death in other parts of the world 
and destroying our the ecology in order to produce gasoline which is much 
more expensive than fossil fuel.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 07:57:27 2001
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Subject: Re: New Energy Funding
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Bruce Meland wrote:

 > the details. One inventor got a lot of information from long lost Tesla
 > Notes and the other figured it out by searching works by Hendershot, Keely
 > and Tesla. They are seeking rather large amounts of funding and are willing
 > to demonstrate the technology to the right partys.

If they will demonstrate and sell prototypes to me, I will bring them 
millions immediately, and billions in a few years. They would not even to 
sell me shares of the company; just license me to sell the machines. I am 
100% serious about this.

If a prototype machine can be fabricated for less than $10,000, so-called 
"deep pockets" are not called for, and in fact people with lots of money, 
power and influence would be more trouble than they are worth. Most major 
discoveries have succeeded without established financial backing. In fact, 
most required no outside investment capital until they matured into billion 
dollar industries. One of the perverse ideas popularized during the dot-com 
boom was that new ventures require hundreds of millions of dollars. A 
dot-com venture or the device described by Meland are both easily scaled 
from a handful of employees in a garage to thousands of employees. This 
kind of venture would not require more than $100,000 to launch. If the 
machine is real, I can and will launch it myself in a few weeks.


 > Some of the name calling
 > on this list is counterproductive and is indicitative of low level
 > technicians.

Nonsense. No one is "calling names." We are demanding substance instead of 
hot air.


  A truce on this kind of activity would be in the best interest
 > of all concerned

What does that mean? Mr. Meland want to publish imaginary claims without a 
shred of evidence, and he does not want anyone else to demand proof, or 
rigor, or even the names of the inventors! Whenever he is challenged to 
provide the smallest detail, he refuses. We are not allowed warn people 
that such claims typically published by scam artists trolling for victims. 
What Meland is doing is unethical, unscientific and contrary to the spirit 
and purpose of this mailing list. It would be in the best interests of 
everyone here if he would put up or shut up. If he is allowed to publish 
this kind of garbage indefinitely, he will degrade this mailing list until 
it is no better than the Keelynet. Already, several scientists have told me 
privately they are signing off.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 08:18:09 2001
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X-Sent: 13 Jun 2001 15:16:40 GMT
From: "Peter Fred" <pbfred worldshare.net>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: If no dark matter, then no General Relativity.  Then what?
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:13:04 -0400
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Etherman in the sci.skeptic newsgroup wrote:

"The strange dark matter hypothesis requires
contradictory and unrealistic properties.  It actually makes
very little sense.  The evidence FOR strange dark matter
is that Einstein's theory is falsified without it.  IMO, we need
a better theory of gravity."


***Recently the Cold Dark Matter hypothesis, which the DM detectors 
are looking for, has been in disfavor and now the Warm Dark Matter 
hypothesis has taken its place.  However the Warm DarK Matter idea is 
now in trouble. See http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph?0106108.

How many more crazy ideas are going to be believed in order to save 
the time-honored  mass-based gravitational ideas of Newton and 
Einstein?

In this connection, I would like to know what is it wrong with my 
heat-based gravity theory as being able to fill the void that would 
occur if General Relativity is no longer believed in?

This theory, among other things, is able to relate the ubiquitous, 
easy-to-detect, starlight to the gravitational force which curiously 
also varies inversely as the square of the distance from a star.  It 
is also able to use the well-established fact that as a star ages its 
luminosity increases in order to account for the recent, surprising 
finding that the universe is accelerating.

Moreover, this theory provides a prescription on how to produce 
gravity in the laboratory  which has been verified even with my 
meager experimental resources.  

The title to the paper on this theory is "Gravitation as resistance 
to the radial conduction of heat" and it can be found at:


http://pbfred.tripod.com/thermal.pdf
or 
http://pbfred.tripod.com/



Regards,

Peter B. Fred

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 11:23:17 2001
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Does anyone know more about this?

http://newschannel5.com/news/0106/12/invent.html

TIA,

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 12:14:29 2001
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I'm disappointed that no one responded to my post on the time 
distortion machine. Come on people, this is time he's bending, not 
iron bars!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 12:16:55 2001
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Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:27:06 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Article about energy and food
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>  Converting edible U.S. corn to fuel is the stupidest, most inhuman 
>energy producing scheme I have ever heard of. It means we starve 
>people to death in other parts of the world and destroying our the 
>ecology in order to produce gasoline which is much more expensive 
>than fossil fuel.
>- Jed

I used to feel this way, back when i was building hog barns. What i 
wad being paid to do was convert corn into hog manure and a small 
amount of meat, However i have subsequently realized that your above 
reaction depends on how you look at it Jed. The farmers are going 
broke because the poor people can't afford to buy their corn, so we 
might as well use it to make fuel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 12:18:33 2001
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Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:27:06 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: reactionless drives?
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>
>***{The best way to understand my model is to go through the description
>line by line and state your questions and arguments. I will happily

OK. I've been visualizing the etherons ( ping pong balls ) going with 
the stream. which is going down a pipe. The fluid molocules  near the 
edge of the pipe move slowly, the speed of movement increases as the 
fluid moves toward the center. I can visulaize the balls near the 
edge rotating slowly counter clockwise. The access of  their rotation 
would be perpendicular to the direction of flow. I don't see the 
balls in the center of the pipe rotating clockwise however.

In your previous posts you said that the Aether flows downward into 
the poles and then is dispersed outward at the equator. Is this all 
of the aetherons? If I wanted to capture them would I have to set up 
a detector at the poles or on the equator? As I'm sure you have 
picked up from my previous posts, my agenda is cohereing the aether 
and putting it to work. Puthoff believes that there is enough energy 
in a vacuum chamber the size of a coffee cup to vaporize all the 
oceans. Then there is my friend Daryl who believes that the energy is 
at best detectable. Where do you fall in this spectrum?



>
>  >Your theory reminds me of John E W Keeley's theories. have you seen
>
>***{I hadn't seen them until just now. That's some mighty strange stuff,
>Kemosabe! :-)


I don't know if Dale has posted Keeley's pictures of his visions of 
the atomic particles and subatomic and subsubatomic particles. If 
your interested, I'll check them out. If there not available, I can 
scan them in and email them to you

>  Anyway, for the record: all of my theories treat
>entities/particles as fundamental, not waves. I consider waves to be a
>manifestation of the aggregate behavior of particles. --MJ}***


I agree

>
>
>***{I know nothing about "Cook's drive,"


go to www.forceborne.com for details on Cook's drive.

>but I fully expect that, in the
>future, propellers will be designed that push against the aether, thereby
>making it possible to travel literally anywhere. --MJ}***

Keeley also believed that. The story I heard is that he build a 
flying machine that levitated based on them. This is exciting because 
there's good money to be had hauling things into stable earth orbit. 
The best rate I've heard of is a Russian Energia which costs $500 per 
pound, can you imagine the explosion in volume that would result if I 
could lower the price to say $25 per pound?

I assume that you are interested in thinking about such a propeller, 
I will email Dale and see if I can get a description of it. It worked 
by combining certain vibrations.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 12:43:35 2001
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Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:36:45 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Article about energy and food
In-Reply-To: <a05010406b74d503bd120 [205.215.192.208]>
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thomas malloy wrote:

>>  Converting edible U.S. corn to fuel is the stupidest, most inhuman 
>> energy producing scheme I have ever heard of. . . .
>
>I used to feel this way, back when i was building hog barns. What i wad 
>being paid to do was convert corn into hog manure and a small amount of 
>meat . . .

What they should do is convert the hog manure into energy. That would give 
us the benefits of both meat and ethanol.

The meat is, at least, highly concentrated energy compared to the corn.


>, However i have subsequently realized that your above reaction depends on 
>how you look at it Jed. The farmers are going broke because the poor 
>people can't afford to buy their corn, so we might as well use it to make fuel

That is an economic or social failure rather than a technical problem. 
There is no technical reason why anyone, anywhere on earth, should go 
hungry, or go without clean water, fuel, or vaccinations for common diseases.

It would cost practically nothing to fix these problems, since the people 
who need the food would themselves would do most of the work and pay most 
of the expense of providing it. It would not increase pollution or strain 
on the ecosystem. Actually, it would help the ecosystem, because people 
would not scrounge for food or cut trees for fuel. It is astonishing to me 
that in the 21st century dire poverty still exists. This is a black mark 
against all systems: communism and capitalism, tyranny and democracy. None 
of them works right! We have not yet invented an economic system that 
fulfills the most basic requirement of civilization, going back to the 
stone age: feeding people. You would think that a species which can build 
the Internet or parse its own DNA could do better.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 13:22:43 2001
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Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:19:11 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Hubbard transformer
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Greetings & please excuse if this is a resend as my ISP was acting up this AM,

Recently, Keith Nagel made mention of an article he found on a weird 
and wonderful website - which reviews a sad era in our nation's history (the 
CIA's efforts at mind control in the 50s-60s). The book which is referenced is 
called "Acid Dreams" by Lee and Shlain and it sounded so interesting that I 
ordered a copy from Amazon before seeing it hours later on the "new" shelf at 
the local library (this has happened before). It's intriguing enough, despite an 
Oliver Stone-like approach to journalism, that I finished it last night, but the real 
point of this post is that it contains a chapter on Alfred M. Hubbard, the 
inventor of one of the few pre-WWII "free energy" devices which was fairly 
well documented (but also which has been widely reconstructed without 
Hubbard's success). This pre WWII era is promising because they tested things 
back then, not with meters, but by actually going out and powering large 
vehicles.

It is that device, usually called the Hubbard transformer, that I hope will 
generate some comment and study - as it may point the way towards an 
overlooked type of energy conversion - a method of direct conversion of high 
energy gamma photons into electricity. With very little modification, this 
technique could perhaps be quickly implemented as an "add-on" to nearly 
every nuclear plant in operation in the country. 

BTW, the book does not tell us anything new about this device - it is mentioned 
only because Capt. Hubbard (if indeed the authors have not confused two 
individuals with the same name) went on to even greater, eh...let us say, 
notoriety.

The Hubbard device, according to the most astute accounts, consisted of a 
large central iron primary wound with a lot of magnet wire, the main surprise 
being that  the core was basically a hollow iron pipe with a radioactive fill 
(pilfered radium). The primary is surrounded by seven iron core secondaries 
and both are circuited with big caps. A small lead acid battery is switched 
through an auto distributor to give a resonant LC frequency that is probably in 
the low khz range. There is a large gain in output from the battery to the load 
and the battery reportedly doesn't discharge (remind you of anything?).

Some time ago, this kind of transformer (without the "fill"), spawned a number 
of unsuccessful attempts at free energy, as reported on this forum, through what 
is known as "parametrics." Parametrics can be described as an electrical 
strategy focusing on resonant alteration - not of the drive current properties - 
but instead on the reluctance of the cores. It is somewhat surprising that this 
technique works almost as well as traditional induction in transformers, but also 
it should not be surprising that many of the proponents of the devices (the 
UDT, the McKie LC circuit, Sweet triode, or the Coler device) came along 
before there was widespread use of dedicated power analyzers. It is now just a 
footnote to this kind of research that even the most expensive digital Tek 
O'scopes cannot take an accurate power reading in the audible frequency 
ranges 1-10 khz.

Anyway, I know of two recent attempts to recreate the Hubbard transformer, 
one by Paul Brown which was patented (even though it looks like it was 
plagerized from AH) but never made it to prime time - probably  because it 
requires rare and expensive isotopes. Another device that I know of used 
uranium ore and was reputed to be massively OU until it was tested with a 
Clarke Hess analyzer. The main thing that was overlooked about this last one 
was not that that it turned out less powerful then it first seemed - but that in 
testing, there was a direct correlation found in the amount of radioactive fill in 
the central core and the power output.

I had never thought about it before reading the new account of Hubbard, but 
consider this. IF the Hubbard transformer did really work (and there is good 
evidence that it was indeed very efficient) and IF the reason that it worked (and 
the reason that the Brown device works) is because the central core is able to 
act as a photon switch (i.e. to allow phased pulsation of the gamma rays out of 
the primary core in order to modify the reluctance/ inductance properties of the 
secondary cores) then why couldn't the same technique be applied to harness 
the unused radiation from ANY nuclear reactor or high level waste 
container (where the gammas are normally wasted)?

Of course we wouldn't actually wind our primary around a reactor, per se, but 
instead we could engineer basically the same operational technique but with 
numerous smaller external transformers- more like photon switches than 
transformers. Gammas that are normally diffused in atomic plants can constitute 
a fair percentage of the total energy output - and photon switches themselves 
are not at all a pipe dream, but a reality in many cutting edge applications.

Furthermore, instead of "mothballing" old reactors, or cutting them into pieces 
and burying them out in the Nevada badlands, why not convert them into big 
Hubbard transformers? If you optimized the residual gamma release and got 
optimum efficiency from your transformer, then perhaps you could convert a 
decommissioned 100 megawatt reactor into an "eternal" 20 megawatt unit! Not 
to mention all those 55 gallon drums of high level waste - talk about a "ready-
roll" for a primarly core!

Comments?

Jones Beene




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 13:56:15 2001
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Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:47:35 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OU in Tennessee?
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Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:

>Does anyone know more about this?
http://newschannel5.com/news/0106/12/invent.html

I emailed Nick Beres, the journalist who did the story, for more info when I 
saw it this morning. No reply yet.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 15:04:30 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: If no dark matter, then no General Relativity.  Then what?
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:03:00 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Peter Fred's message of Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:13:04 -0400:
[snip]
>In this connection, I would like to know what is it wrong with my 
>heat-based gravity theory as being able to fill the void that would 
>occur if General Relativity is no longer believed in?
[snip]
What's wrong with it is that the weight of an abject is pretty much
independent of temperature, yet directly proportional to the amount of
mass present. If heat has some influence, then this is only a secondary
effect, obviously not the main cause.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 16:49:00 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <rhf rhfweb.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <jfields@austininstruments.com>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
Subject: Re: New Age Town Designs, Free Energy, Force Fields, - My respnse to your questions
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:21:00 -0700
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In response to your questions on my email on new age towns,
free energies, and force fields:

"Would you please elaborate?  That is, would you care to
proffer what you
have on hand in terms of free energy and 'privacy force fields'
and what
you mean by "self sustaining and clean environmentally
friendly technologies."?

How close are you?  Would you care to describe the scope of
your work
and why you feel you're on the brink of a breakthrough? "

I have a web page which specifies some of my rough concepts
for a  new age town at www.rhfweb.com\newage.html. I have
listed at my web site at www.rhfweb.com some information on
plasma force fields, and the patents for them filed. I also have
listed information on my ideas of force fields in general terms at
the web page. 

Please check the link 5. Current Research Areas and the link 11.
Articles on how to block out radiation from directed energy
devices, electronic harassment, and nonconsensual radiation
experimentation. with a sublink portable force fields at the
www.rhfweb.com site.  The basic idea for force fields comes
from :

Cold Plasma Force Fields see  Force Fields.  
Also please see U.S. Pat. Nos. 5,414,324, 5,387,842, and
5,456,972 
at  http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html, which show how to
use radio-frequency waves
to energize a gas such as air to create a plasma, which could be
used as a force field
to absorb or deflect directed energies and radiation's.

I am presently working on how to develop free energy devices
to tap into cosmic photon energy or gravity waves to create
energy for force fields. Also I have a great deal of information
on how to create force fields by using pyramids and sacred
geometry's. I have a page at web site www.rhfweb.com under
the link 11. entitled Pyramid Power=16 Levels of the Mind=16
PhysicalDimensions=12 Zodiac Houses which describes how
pyramids and the human mind can create force fields. I am
working on how mangetic-electric/subatomic
quarks/neutrons/neutrinos make gravity waves and how objects
make anti-gravity force fields. I am reading several books in
high energy physics and free energy technologies which are
listed near the end of the list at my web page
www.rhfweb.com\rpgref.html. to better understand and develop
the above notions of force fields and free energies.

My credentials are at my web site at www.rhfweb.com under
link 25. Credentials. Since I am only a amateur physicist or
researcher, I intend to hire professional researchers with funds
to develop, detail, and professionally establish force field
technologies and free energy technologies.  My primary talents
lie in time management and futures predictions and planning. I
am very good at reviewing ideas, plans, and setting up future
agendas with near perfect syncronicities and probabilities of
success. So I am merely researching the basic ideas and
technologies needed to produce free energies and force fields so
that I may hire others to detail it, while I synchronize the future
agendas to allow the technologies to be developed safely, and
successfully.



"Which 'may' use new age technologies?  What, precisely, do
you mean by
'new age technologies', and why do you feel the need to use the
qualifier, 'may'? "

My web page www.rhfweb.com\newage.html lists some of my
ideas on new age technologies. But in general new age
technologies are technologies which have ethics and safety built
into them to maintain a healthy, happy, clean, and non-violent
environment for living beings. Technologies are designed to
augment and maximize the happiness of living beings and
societies and not replace, endanger, or enslave them.
Technologies such as leadership technologies need to be
developed whereby the leadership structures act in the best
interest of living beings and not machines or logical
corporations. I have a link at my new age web page an ideal
form of executive leadership which involves 3 top executive
leaders instead of one, and 3 parties instead of two, to eliminate
all unhealthy dualistic power structures which do not represent
nature very well and create excessive imbalances. 

The reason I used the word "may" is because my ideas of new
age towns not only use high technologies associated with the
new age of information but also may use older ideas to create a
healthy blend between the new and the old. Older ideas of
privacy and independence, decentralization of recourses and
power, hand crafted and detailed personalized technologies are
blended with newer ideas of high technologies such as free
energy and force fields to ensure privacy and freedom. Also
older ideas of manners and morals are blended with newer ideas
of culture, socialization, entertainment, and media, to create a
more healthy environment.


"If the technologies are free, then what would be the point of
filing
international patents? Patents _resrict_ the free dissemination of
technology, so your
statement that you would "file international patents to allow
free
technology to be used in the town" is bogus."

If I develop free energy technologies then if I do not file
patents, other's  may  file patents similar to mine and then they
may prevent others from using the technologies. Also if I file
patents then the technologies may  be commercialized so that
they benefit the masses and not just the few. Also many of the
force field technologies need to patented so that they meet legal
requirements to be used safely. Otherwise they may be illegal in
the countries to used in. I would also need to win court cases to
allow the technologies to be used in other countries once the
patents are filed. Free energy and force fields all have national
security applications and may be restricted. Any information in
a patent becomes public knowledge. I could also file the patent
under my private charity foundation and then the patents
become not only public knowledge and useable by anyone but
also protected from others filing similar patents and blocking
their use. For a patent filed by non-profit foundation or a public
charity, all information is free for the benefit of the general
public, so that any patent filed  by the foundation or charity is
for use for free by the general public.  I may have problems
finding researchers who would allow me to file a patent for my
foundation based on their work without letting them make some
profit off of it. So I may have to set up some minimal profit
motives to entice researcher to work with me. Also if
companies can make some profit off of the technologies then
they may mass produce them for the general public. 
  
I do have some problems with surveillance technologies being
used on me and my royal family and associates to prevent me
from encouraging democracy and developing new age
technologies. This is a very coming thing. Many politicians
encouraging new age technologies have the same problems with 
surveillance technologies and remote viewing being used on
them and their associates to prevent them from doing what is in
the best interest of each individual citizen and not a particular
group. My only unique abilities lie in being very ethical, honest,
risk taking for others, and persistence. If per chance that such a
pattern matches or resonates better with the universal ether, and
my goals happen to catch on because other's like them, and
others hear about their potential success, and then decide to
repress me and my associates because of it, then such
circumstance are not a trap but a very natural phenomena of
repression by the powerful or the masses on the rights of the
individual or the minority.  I am only trying to encourage a
model for a new age community. Other's may copy it or ignore
it. It is up to them what to do. If you block my attempts to
communicate new age ideas then you may prevent others from
being able to decide what is best for them. 

I have only noticed a pattern whereby people are repressed by
dualistic power structures to prevent the success of the
individual from realizing n-ary alternative social structures and
technologies. Nature models tri-nary or n-ary structures which
do not work well under dualism. So I am encouraging new age
ideas and technologies which protect the individual rights over
the masses or the dualistic power structures and historical
images which support only a few groups of minorities.  Any
false propaganda or double speak generated by dualistic power
structures to misrepresent my goals and the goals of other
ordinary citizens, does not reflect my personal goals or futures




Respectively,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
RHF Buisness web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Media Productions at
http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Email: tom rhfweb.com



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 17:24:03 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Article about energy and food
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:22:30 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Jed,

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:31:05 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>Converting edible U.S. corn to 
>fuel is the stupidest, most inhuman energy producing scheme I have ever 
>heard of. It means we starve people to death in other parts of the world 
>and destroying our the ecology in order to produce gasoline which is much 
>more expensive than fossil fuel.

Now cut it out!!  You know that if people are starving in the world
(and they are), it's due to their governments and not the inadequacy
of food supplies.  Transportation is somewhat a problem, but only
somewhat.  

For decades farmers have been donating (or trying to donate) grains
and other produce to various agencies and countries -- and have been
turned down.  

Please don't perpetuate the myth that using crops, that are rotting in
the bins, for fuel is somehow depriving starving people of food.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 18:16:14 2001
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Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:28:40 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Hubbard transformer
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Greetings,

Recently, Keith Nagel made mention of an article he found on a verrry weird 
and wonderful website - which reviews a sad era in our nation's history (the 
CIA's efforts at mind control in the 50s-60s). The book which is referenced is 
called "Acid Dreams" by Lee and Shlain and it sounded so interesting that I 
ordered a copy from Amazon before seeing it hours later on the "new" shelf at 
the local library (this has happened before). It's intriguing enough, despite an 
Oliver Stone-like approach to journalism, that I finished it last night, but the real 
point of this post is that it contains a chapter on Alfred M. Hubbard, the 
inventor of one of the few pre-WWII "free energy" devices which was fairly 
well documented (but also which has been widely reconstructed without 
Hubbard's success). This pre WWII era is promising because they tested things 
back then, not with meters, but by actually going out and powering large 
vehicles.

It is that device, usually called the Hubbard transformer, that I hope will 
generate some comment and study - as it may point the way towards an 
overlooked type of energy conversion - a method of direct conversion of high 
energy gamma photons into electricity. With very little modification, this 
technique could perhaps be quickly implemented as an "add-on" to nearly 
every nuclear plant in operation in the country. 

BTW, the book does not tell us anything new about this device - it is mentioned 
only because Capt. Hubbard (if indeed the authors have not confused two 
individuals with the same name) went on to even greater, eh...let us say, 
notoriety.

The Hubbard device, according to the most astute accounts, consisted of a 
large central iron primary wound with a lot of magnet wire, the main surprise 
being that  the core was basically a hollow iron pipe with a radioactive fill 
(pilfered radium). The primary is surrounded by seven iron core secondaries 
and both are circuited with big caps. A small lead acid battery is switched 
through an auto distributor to give a resonant LC frequency that is probably in 
the low khz range. There is a large gain in output from the battery to the load 
and the battery reportedly doesn't discharge (remind you of anything?).

Some time ago, this kind of transformer (without the "fill"), spawned a number 
of unsuccessful attempts at free energy, as reported on this forum, through what 
is known as "parametrics." Parametrics can be described as an electrical 
strategy focusing on resonant alteration - not of the drive current properties - 
but instead on the reluctance of the cores. It is somewhat surprising that this 
technique works almost as well as traditional induction in transformers, but also 
it should not be surprising that many of the proponents of the devices (the 
UDT, the McKie LC circuit, Sweet triode, or the Coler device) came along 
before there was widespread use of dedicated power analyzers. It is now just a 
footnote to this kind of research that even the most expensive digital Tek 
O'scopes cannot take an accurate power reading in the audible frequency 
ranges 1-10 khz.

Anyway, I know of two recent attempts to recreate the Hubbard transformer, 
one by Paul Brown which was patented (even though it looks like it was 
plagerized from AH) but never made it to prime time - probably  because it 
requires rare and expensive isotopes. Another device that I know of used 
uranium ore and was reputed to be massively OU until it was tested with a 
Clarke Hess analyzer. The main thing that was overlooked about this last one 
was not that that it turned out less powerful then it first seemed - but that in 
testing, there was a direct correlation found in the amount of radioactive fill in 
the central core and the power output.

I had never thought about it before reading the new account of Hubbard, but 
consider this. IF the Hubbard transformer did really work (and there is good 
evidence that it was indeed very efficient) and IF the reason that it worked (and 
the reason that the Brown device works) is because the central core is able to 
act as a photon switch (i.e. to allow phased pulsation of the gamma rays out of 
the primary core in order to modify the reluctance/ inductance properties of the 
secondary cores) then why couldn't the same technique be applied to harness 
the unused radiation from ANY nuclear reactor or high level waste 
container (where the gammas are normally wasted)?

Of course we wouldn't actually wind our primary around a reactor, per se, but 
instead we could engineer basically the same operational technique but with 
numerous smaller external transformers- more like photon switches than 
transformers. Gammas that are normally diffused in atomic plants can constitute 
a fair percentage of the total energy output - and photon switches themselves 
are not at all a pipe dream, but a reality in many cutting edge applications.

Furthermore, instead of "mothballing" old reactors, or cutting them into pieces 
and burying them out in the Nevada badlands, why not convert them into big 
Hubbard transformers? If you optimized the residual gamma release and got 
optimum efficiency from your transformer, then perhaps you could convert a 
decommissioned 100 megawatt reactor into an "eternal" 20 megawatt unit! Not 
to mention all those 55 gallon drums of high level waste - talk about a "ready-
roll" for a primarly core!

Comments?

Jones Beene



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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: If no dark matter, then no General Relativity.  Then what?
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:56:09 +1000
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In reply to  Robin van Spaandonk's message of Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:03:00
+1000:
[snip]
>What's wrong with it is that the weight of an abject is pretty much
                                               ^^^^^^ object
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 21:19:29 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: time distortion
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:17:57 +1000
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:27:06 -0500:

>I'm disappointed that no one responded to my post on the time 
>distortion machine. Come on people, this is time he's bending, not 
>iron bars!
I've been waiting for more info.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 13 22:43:17 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hubbard transformer
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:42:01 +1000
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:28:40 -0700:
[snip]
>Furthermore, instead of "mothballing" old reactors, or cutting them into pieces 
>and burying them out in the Nevada badlands, why not convert them into big 
>Hubbard transformers? If you optimized the residual gamma release and got 
>optimum efficiency from your transformer, then perhaps you could convert a 
>decommissioned 100 megawatt reactor into an "eternal" 20 megawatt unit! Not 
>to mention all those 55 gallon drums of high level waste - talk about a "ready-
>roll" for a primarly core!
[snip]
About this time last year, I wrote to an American electric utility that
uses nuclear power. The email I sent is copied here below. Unfortunately
I no longer have their reply, but it was to the effect that they had
every confidence in the effectiveness of current waste disposal plans in
long term storage. I was disgusted with their reply. 
BTW I have also sent similar emails to Lloyds of London (because the
insurance industry has a vested interest in the reduction of global
warming), and received no reply at all, and also to the governor of
California, during the Californian electricity crisis. Also no reply.

Perhaps one of you will have more luck.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To: nucommunications nu.com
Subject: A research question
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 17:01:03 +1000

Hi,

It is an acknowledged fact that radwaste is basically a problem for the
nuclear industry. Though you have procedures in place for temporary
storage,
and undubitably also have long term storage plans, wouldn't it be nice
if
you could get rid of it permanently, and generate excess power from that
waste at the same time?

There have been a number of patents over the years claiming to generate
power from radioactive materials. One early claim was that of Alfred
Hubbard, and his invention in a slightly altered form reappeared as US
patent US4835433 (
http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4835433
). Given that you are already in posession of the necessary materials
and
licenses, it would only cost you a few thousand dollars to find out just
how
effective such devices are or are not (they can be built quite small -
just
a few lbs.).

Given the enormous potential upside, and minuscule downside, it seems to
me
that you may already have investigated such designs. If so, I would be
curious as to what you found.

Best Regards,


Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 02:28:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: time distortion
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>In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:27:06 -0500:
>
>>I'm disappointed that no one responded to my post on the time
>>distortion machine. Come on people, this is time he's bending, not
>>iron bars!
>I've been waiting for more info.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk

Sorry, all the information I have on it was in my last post. I sent 
an email to the researcher, but so far, no reply.


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As promised, here is a URL for a description of an acoustic 
levitation device 
http://www.dxshop.com/_shop/shop-indy.mhtml?shop=spectrum&cart=992502622-12348.db&tstamp=992502622&code=P0029488 

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Subject: Re: Hubbard transformer
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>ommissioned 100 megawatt reactor into an "eternal" 20 megawatt unit! Not
>to mention all those 55 gallon drums of high level waste - talk 
>about a "ready-
>roll" for a primarly core!
>
>Comments?
>
>Jones Beene

I agree, I told Paul that, I offered to introduce him to our utility, 
NSP, now Excel Energy. Paul and I had a following out and he ignored 
my last email. But I think that your proposal is brilliant. Paul's 
Nuclear Battery is going to be public information soon then I can do 
what I want with it.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 14 07:00:08 2001
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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:58:48 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Article about energy and food / "clunker" buy back program
In-Reply-To: <3b280227.11032002 mail.midiowa.net>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010613102043.00a92330 pop.mindspring.com>
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Dean T. Miller wrote:

>Now cut it out!!  You know that if people are starving in the world
>(and they are), it's due to their governments and not the inadequacy
>of food supplies.  Transportation is somewhat a problem, but only
>somewhat.

That's true, but using ethanol is a different story. First, it takes 1 unit 
of energy (fuel and fertilizer) to produce 2 to 4 units of ethanol fuel 
energy according to people who favor of using this fuel:

http://www.greenfuels.org/ethafood.html

That's an absurdly low return on investment; it is even worse than PV solar 
panels, which are a joke.

Second, cars in North America consume much more energy than people do, so 
to produce a significant fraction of our automotive fuel, say 10%, we would 
have to use up enough food to feed 20 or 30 million people. That would have 
a major impact on the price of grain. If you are talking about enough fuel 
for 2% of the cars, why bother? It would be better to invest the money in 
fuel efficient motors. Actually, the best thing to do on this small scale, 
for a few hundred million dollars, would be to buy up old "clunker" 
automobiles for $400 to $700 each. See:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/avrp/avrp.htm
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/avrp/avrpfaq.htm

None of this applies to ethanol production from agricultural waste, such as 
leaves and stems, or hog manure. That may not be cost effective compared to 
drilling for oil, but new laws are now forcing large hog farms to treat the 
waste instead of dumping it into rivers. As long as they must build large 
scale treatment plants, they might as well engineer them to recover energy.


>Please don't perpetuate the myth that using crops, that are rotting in
>the bins, for fuel is somehow depriving starving people of food.

It would deprive people if it was done on a large enough scale to make a 
difference to our energy consumption.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 14 07:42:21 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Electric cable fire in Washington, DC
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A different kind of electricity crisis. See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63970-2001Jun13.html

Manhole Fire Shuts Down Georgetown

Power Outages Anger Residents, Business Owners; Street Closure Clogs 
Rush-Hour Traffic

Thursday, June 14, 2001; Page B01

Smoke and flames billowed once again from manholes in Georgetown yesterday 
afternoon, knocking out electricity, throwing the rush hour into confusion, 
and shutting down one of the city's most vibrant commercial strips.

The fiery eruption from beneath the brick sidewalks of M Street NW around 
3:30 p.m. prompted expressions of exasperation, touched off a flurry of 
evacuations from stores and restaurants and left the normally bustling 
thoroughfare in steamy paralysis.

Under a smoky haze, and amid fears of further outbreaks, the street filled 
with emergency vehicles but was closed to other traffic east of Wisconsin 
Avenue. That choked off one of the major commuter routes out of downtown 
Washington.

On one of the hottest days of the year, electricity was cut off to about 
1,600 homes and businesses, halting computers and cash registers, not to 
mention refrigerators and air conditioning units. . . .

One of the most violent underground explosions occurred only a few feet 
away on M Street in February 2000, flinging a manhole cover into the air. . . .

A preliminary investigation indicated that the fire started around 30th and 
M streets possibly as a result of a short circuit or other fault in a 
secondary system, Potomac Electric Power Co. officials said. They said it 
spread east along a main cable.

Pepco announced a $30 million plan last month to replace its aging 
underground electrical network in Georgetown, as a means of solving the 
chronic problem. . . .

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 14 08:16:09 2001
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Hey Patrick; What strings are attatched to the $100,000? Does Your friend
have exclusive control of the technology or is it a gift for the cause?  Or
some arrangement in between these 2 extremes? Bruce, Electrifying Times
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Bailey <pgb padrak.com>
To: Bruce Meland <etimes teleport.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy


>My friend Chris will write a check for $100,000.00 for R&D if he
>likes the video he sees.
>
>Any inventor that cannot get a quality videotape together should just
>forget it anyway.
>
>
>>The book is not too much on his intrepretation  of key free energy systems
>>just some very basic and extensive information that Peter has spent many
>>years gathering about the Gray Motor Patents and experimentation and  also
>>some similar on Tesla's radiant energy devices. You can save a lot of time
>>and money doing a literature search before trying your ideas out in
>>experimentation. I am not sure who this Frederick  character is but he
>>sounds pretty closeminded, know it all,  perhaps a very regimented German
or
>>Dutchman. I would like to know what sucesses he has had in the energy or
>>other related fields. I know a few inventors that have found how to heat
>>water in a revolutionary way and will be visiting one soon but i am sure
he
>>is not going to share his key secrets on any level  with some  know it all
>>vortexians or want all info for free.    Most of the good talented
inventors
>>have spent 10 years and thousands of dollars of their hard earned money,
>>getting their free energy devices to an acceptable level or gathering
>>information and printing a book and can't afford to take the time to
answer
>>all questions. Most real talented inventors do not need to waste their
time
>>networking the net.  Bruce
>>-----Original Message----ed
>>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
>>To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>>Date: Sunday, June 03, 2001 11:22 PM
>>Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
>>
>>
>>  >>----- Original Message -----
>>  >>From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
>>  >>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>>  >>Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>; <knagel@gis.net>; <tom@rhfweb.com>
>>  >>Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 12:47 PM
>>  >>Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
>>  >>
>>  >>Bruce,
>>  >>
>>  >>I think you would've been better off to have spent that $37.00 plus S
& H
>>on a
>>  >>"Shrink".  :-)
>>  >>
>>  >>Regards,   Frederick
>>  >
>>  >I agree, I linked to Dr. Lindermann's site from Jerry Decker's site.
>>  >I asked him some pointed questions. I have yet to receive a reply.
>>  >Bottom line, anybody can write a book, but it takes a break through
>>  >to heat water.
>>  >
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>>  I think you serious tinkerers would save a lot of time and money if
you
>>  >>>  purchased the recent published book "The Free Energy Secrets of
Cold
>>  >>  > Electricity by Dr. Peter Lindemann for about $37, includes
shipping
>>and
>>  >
>>  >
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 14 08:27:41 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <knagel gis.net>
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Keith; Naturally  the inventor at his request or myself will not reveal too
many details as secercy is paramount and additional funding is needed, but
if you live in the Midwest perhaps I could arrange for you to observe some
of the technology. Let me know if you are interested. Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
To: Bruce Meland <etimes teleport.com>
Cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 9:59 PM
Subject: RE: A parable for Bruce Meland


>Well Bruce, are you ready to provide us with some factual information
>about the increasing bizarre claims you've been making on vortex?
>Or more black helicopters, disappearing prototypes, mystery inventors...
>
>Jed pointed out the reality of suppression, but I'd like to add one
>more point. Disinformation can be spread about a subject to the point
>where it becomes impossible for any intelligent dialog to occur.
>I used to think such actions were orchestrated, but now feel
>it's an organic process. Perhaps an expression of Freud's Thanatos?
>
>Instead of making a lot of specious assumptions about me and the
>rest of the list members, how about some real information or
>discussion?
>
>K.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bruce Meland [mailto:etimes teleport.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 4:16 PM
>To: knagel gis.net; Vortex
>Subject: Re: A parable for Bruce Meland
>
>
>Keith you are the one that is nieve and probably some low level technician
>that is living in the past or with very regimented classic electrodynamics
>perceptions. I just happen to get around and have been networking with real
>inventors, not stuck in some little shop or garage cranking out printed
>circuit boards or the  stuck in corner of some  establishment   corp. shop.
>This technology has nothing to do with religion or a parable. Just some
>wizzard inventors, one with  a PHD in EE and good at origional work and not
>the regurgitaor type that ends up at some University. One of the wizzards
>was key developer of fiber optics.   Keith you just have blinders on! Bruce
>From: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
>To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Date: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:27 PM
>Subject: A parable for Bruce Meland
>
>
>>Hi All.
>>
>>Many moons ago, I had the experience of working with a Born
>>Again Christian. You know the type. Anyway, he kept trying
>>to convert the heathens in the office to the one true faith.
>>One day, the following exchange took place.
>>
>>Bob: "Blah Blah accept Jesus blah blah going to hell etc etc"
>>
>>Me: "Bob, do you mean to say that if I don't accept jesus I'm going to
>hell"
>>
>>Bob : "Yes!"
>>
>>Me: "OK. What about if I never heard of Jesus. Do I automatically go to
>>hell?"
>>
>>Bob: "uhhh, I suppose so yes"
>>
>>Me: "Hmm... What about babys, buddhists, etc."
>>
>>Bob: "uhmmmmmmm yeah"
>>
>>Me: "Damn Bob, that seems pretty cruel. Babies?"
>>
>>Bob: long pause...furrowed brow "OK, what happens is they go to limbo and
>>get judged
>> on individual merit"
>>
>>Me: "So, basically, what you're trying to do is maximize the number of
>souls
>> going to heaven, hence the prosteletizing?"
>>
>>Bob: "Yup"
>>
>>Me: "So if you succeed in convincing me, I go to heaven"
>>
>>Bob: sensing victory "Yes!"
>>
>>Me: "and if you fail, if your oratory skills are insufficient or your
>> logic is unappealing, or I feel bad 'cause my girlfriend fought
>> with me, and I don't accept this, I go to hell"
>>
>>Bob: "Uhmm Yeah."
>>
>>Me: "That's a lot of responsibility Bob. I may live a good life, but
>because
>> of your inability to argue a point, to present any factual data
>> to back up your claim, I'm damned to hell. Just for hearing you"
>>
>>Bob: Blinks.
>>
>>Me: "So it would seem, that the best way to maximize the number of good
>> souls in heaven, is to keep this a great secret. Don't tell anyone.
>> Then, we'll be judged on merit and not on your ability to argue,
>> which frankly is greatly lacking.
>>
>>Bob: Mouth opens.
>>
>>Me: "Already you've damned half the department to an eternity of torment.
>> Please stop."
>>
>>
>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 14 08:53:24 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:35:36 -0700
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Hi Jeff; This is confidental; I will be visiting said inventor near Wooster
OH next weekend. If you live near there perhaps I can arrange for you to
come along and observe. Or if you know of someone if you can not make it. It
would still be at the approval of the inventor. There is another inventor in
th ePhillipines that has similar technology that want's 10 million for the
rights to the technology. I have videos of both technologies and contacts
that have visited and observed the technology and say it is real. The
problem is that it is too revolutionary. Keep in touch. Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing


>Bruce,
>
>> Jeff; It has been 6 year since I have talked face to face with the
>inventors
>> who have had active suppression experiences. I may have an opportunity in
>the
>> near future as Toyota is soon paying my way to an Event in the Midwest.
>
>I live in the Midwest--when and where? (Or isn't it a public event?)
>
>> Perhaps I will get a more complete story as to what  technology was taken
>> and by whom and what his plans are...,
>
>Unless you get this, no one will be inclined to take you seriously.  I'm
>willing to listen, but I am not a source of money.  I'm also willing to
>believe that active suppression happens, but that's a long way from
>believing every story I'm told.  By the way, why do you believe the guy?
>
>> I just mentioned all these
>> very brief stories to get some feedback of what may be the best approach
>to
>> get the  revolutionary free energy technology onboard for future
>generations
>> to use, without  completely destroying the planet.
>
>Well, look--if the guy is being actively suppressed, then the worst thing
>you could do is start broadcasting about him via vortex and other web
sites.
>Any group capable of staging black helicopter raids can certainly have
>someone monitor vortex on a regular basis.
>
>> The first effort is to bring to the public awareness that such
>technologies exist.(There are
>> several publications out there = www.free-energy.cc  and the other one I
>> believe  is  www.searchforforfreeenergy.com (Also my publication coming
up
>> and others like Infinite Energy.)
>
>None of these avenues will bring all that much public awareness--they tend
>to reach only those who don't need to be reached anymore.  Greer's big
>public UFO meeting at the National Press Club has a better chance, though
>even that was pretty much a one or two day story.  The public will become
>aware when they can hold working devices in their hands.  Prior to that,
you
>don't need the public--you need a guy with money to convince so you can
make
>the products.
>
>kooistra
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 14 13:15:23 2001
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Cc: <jcarey9622 aol.com>
Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing
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Hey Jed; Want to make a $#00,000 bet that i can't take you  to a
demonstration of the technology to prove that the technology exist. And
possibly even arrange a demonstration that whould bring in a swat team. The
$300,000 is what it has cost the inventors to get them out of jail including
legal fees.  This is a reality Jed. Get your head out of the academic sand
and into the National security State real  world. Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; vortex-l@eskimo.com
<vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, May 25, 2001 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: Raids and helicopters prove nothing


>thomas malloy wrote:
>
>>. . . In addition to the possibility that Mr. X is liar, consider this. If
>>the invisible government, the IG, is sending it's goon squads to stop him,
>>what chance would any investor or organization have of successfully
>>marketing the product?
>
>I hadn't thought of that. You are right, but it might be fun to try to
>devise a scheme to beat the goon squads. You need an elaborate plan in
>which 100 prototypes are manufactured secretly, out of sight of the IG, and
>placed in cities all around the world for a coordinated, simultaneous mass
>unveiling. It would make a good SF story!
>
>For that matter, what don't the goons come this afternoon and take away
>this "latest model." Why do they let him build anything, ever? Surely they
>have wiretaps and cameras. They must see him going to Radio Shack for
>another load of supplies. If he can build one "latest model"
>prototype,  there must be a way to outwit them and build a hundred.
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 14 13:15:40 2001
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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:20:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, jlsparber@earthlink.net
Subject: Other  Hyrogen fuel 
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	Dear Folks,

	Using sun to produce hydrogen via photo and thermo voltaics a
football field area will hydrogen-gas 100 cars a day.... on a sunny day.



On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 8:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Hyrogen fuel economics
> 
> Mike Carrell wrote:
> 
> 
> > What the biomass calculations seem to leave out is the capital and energy
> > necessary to produce the biomass.
> 
> Ever been around a combine or corn harvester Mike?
> 
> For every bushel of wheat or corn (60 pounds or 56 pounds) there are 60 and 56 pounds
> of biomass wastes
> thrown on the ground to air oxidize back to CO2.
> 
> These could be collected and processed with the same logistics as the food crops.
> 
> I suggest that you do a web search on biomass gasification and energy farming.  :-)
> 
> 
> >You are basically using plants (how many
> > square miles?) as solar energy converters, and overlooking the very strong
> > temptation to use fertilizers to maximize the plant growth.
> 
> Yep a nuclear reactor 93 million miles away and no nuclear wastes to contend with.
> Where do you think those
> fossil fuels came from?

---------- cut-----> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 14 13:58:16 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1010614161729.21260A-100000 college.antioch-
 college.edu>
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John Schnurer wrote:

>         Using sun to produce hydrogen via photo and thermo voltaics a
>football field area will hydrogen-gas 100 cars a day.... on a sunny day.

Unfortunately not. You would have to have 2 football fields; one to charge 
the cars, the other to generate the energy needed to make the PVs in the 
first place. The lifetime total input:output energy ratio of a PV ranges 
from 1:2 to 1:6 according to PV industry sources, assuming the device lasts 
15 to 20 years, which is optimistic. Basically, a PV is a good way to move 
energy from the PV factory to some other location. It is a great way to 
power a hand calculator or an isolated roadside telephone, but for large 
scale energy generation it would be economic lunacy.

Parabolic collectors or newer types of PV may solve this problem.

Some PVs are made from reject silicon from electronics that would otherwise 
go into the trash heap. I am not sure, but I believe most of the embodied 
energy in a PV is put there during the production of the silicon, so it 
makes economic sense to use this waste material for PVs. It is kind of like 
generating energy from hog manure; by itself that process would not 
economically competitive with fossil fuel, but since the material has to be 
processed anyway, for other reasons, we might as well derive energy as a 
byproduct.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 14 15:05:42 2001
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Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel 
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Jed is correct in insisting on life-cycle costs when looking at global
energy solutions. I have seen presentations, some decades ago, showing how
covering one state with PV cells would power the nation, or covering the
existing superhighways would do the job.

Yes, the energy is there. Yes, one can build triple-layer PV cells,
extending their collection bandwidths, and get efficiencies of 25% -- at a
price. Yes, one can build passive and directed collector systems and get 10
Sol gains. Those systems cost money and require maintenance. The use of PV
systems for local use in the developing world is the largest market. There
the disadvantages can be tolerated, for a modest amount of energy can make a
big difference in a village's lifestyle.

Using PVs or wind power to energize the civilization we have won't fly with
the technology in hand. We don't look at total systems cost most of the
time.

Mike Carrell

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	Dear Jed,

	The energy you get out of a PV is not "put into it" in
manufacture.  
	Wherever did you get this idea?

	PV and TV together will do the job in one football field's worth
of space.

	I am expecting the autos to come in one at a time.


On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> >         Using sun to produce hydrogen via photo and thermo voltaics a
> >football field area will hydrogen-gas 100 cars a day.... on a sunny day.
> 
> Unfortunately not. You would have to have 2 football fields; one to charge 
34n 3> the cars, the other to generate the energy needed to make the PVs
in the 
> first place. The lifetime total input:output energy ratio of a PV ranges 
> from 1:2 to 1:6 according to PV industry sources, assuming the device lasts 
> 15 to 20 years, which is optimistic. Basically, a PV is a good way to move 
> energy from the PV factory to some other location. It is a great way to 
> power a hand calculator or an isolated roadside telephone, but for large 
> scale energy generation it would be economic lunacy.
> 
> Parabolic collectors or newer types of PV may solve this problem.
> 
> Some PVs are made from reject silicon from electronics that would otherwise 
> go into the trash heap.

????????

 I am not sure, but I believe most of the embodied 
> energy in a PV is put there during the production of the silicon, 


	I don't get what you.... you mean you think the electricity from a
PV cell is determined by something other than direct energy conversion of
electromagnetic energy of photons?
	Woa!

	Let me know how this works.   And why don't you read the standard
reasons physics works?  Where did does your phsics come from?

 makes economic sense to use this waste material for PVs. It is kind of like 
> generating energy from hog manure; by itself that process would not 
> economically competitive with fossil fuel, but since the material has to be 
> processed anyway, for other reasons, we might as well derive energy as a 
> byproduct.
> 
> - Jed
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 14 15:44:49 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel 
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>Using PVs or wind power to energize the civilization we have won't fly with
>the technology in hand. We don't look at total systems cost most of the
>time.

Wind power is economically viable in many parts of the world. Not here in 
Georgia or in Japan, but in places like Iowa or Wales it is quite 
competitive. The embodied energy payback time is 3 months, compared to 
about 1 month for a fossil fuel plant, or up to 6 years with PVs.

In 1999 and 2000, roughly 3.8 GW of wind power were installed world-wide, 
which is more than the nuclear power being installed. There are modest tax 
incentives to encourage wind, but nothing like the tax breaks given for 
gas, oil or nuclear power. All in all, the playing field is heavily slanted 
*against* wind power, and there is a great deal of heavy handed opposition 
to it in Congress from the oil and coal interests. Despite these problems, 
sober, bottom-line oriented electric company executives are buying $4 
billion in wind equipment every year, and wind is growing more rapidly than 
any other source of energy. It now generates enough energy to power the 
state of Virginia, or half of Spain. That makes it a very large, successful 
source of energy -- far ahead of any other "alternative" source.

Aeroderivative peak supply gas generators ranging from 1 to 4 MW are 
considered mainstream, big-iron, mainstream power company equipment. No one 
would call that kind of thing hippy alternative energy. I cannot understand 
why anyone would say our civilization cannot be driven by a similar 2 MW 
wind turbine of roughly the same size and power density (not counting the 
rotor blades).

Until 1855, all of the world's ocean shipping was driven exclusively by 
wind. Megatons of goods and millions of people were carried between 
continents, and navies large enough to defeat Napoleon were driven 
exclusively by wind. The speed records of the best 1000 and 2000 ton 
clipper ships were not beaten by steamships until 1890. Ships like the 
Flying Cloud routinely travelled at 12 knots, about as fast as ordinary 
freight steamers from 1900 to 1950. (WWII convoy speeds ranged from 10 to 
15 knots.) There is enough wind energy at sea -- in the North Sea close to 
land, in water less than 50 meters deep -- to drive all the electric 
turbines in Northern Europe.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 14 15:49:43 2001
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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:47:27 -0400
To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel 
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
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John Schnurer wrote:

>         The energy you get out of a PV is not "put into it" in
>manufacture.
>         Wherever did you get this idea?

I got this idea from world's largest manufacturer of PVs. See:

http://www.siemenssolar.com/Paybackstudy.pdf

I do not mean it in the literal sense; I mean that the energy required to 
manufacture PVs, the so-called "embodied" energy, is so great that the PV 
must be run for 2 to 6 years to generate that much energy again and pay it 
back. Since PVs only last 10 to 15 years (20 at most, under ideal 
circumstances) this is a losing proposition.

PVs are wonderful devices, with many important uses, but they have nothing 
to do with large scale energy generation.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 14 17:07:30 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
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Subject: Re: time distortion
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	I did not see the post.

	Do you know, specfically,  by what means this is cerified?

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001, thomas malloy wrote:

> I'm disappointed that no one responded to my post on the time 
> distortion machine. Come on people, this is time he's bending, not 
> iron bars!
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 14 20:47:53 2001
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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:51:00 -0700
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On Thursday 14 June 2001 07:41, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> A different kind of electricity crisis. See:
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63970-2001Jun13.html
> 
> Manhole Fire Shuts Down Georgetown
> 
> Power Outages Anger Residents, Business Owners; Street Closure Clogs 
> Rush-Hour Traffic
> 
> Thursday, June 14, 2001; Page B01
> 
> Smoke and flames billowed once again from manholes in Georgetown yesterday 
> afternoon, knocking out electricity, throwing the rush hour into confusion, 
> and shutting down one of the city's most vibrant commercial strips.
> 
> The fiery eruption from beneath the brick sidewalks of M Street NW around 
> 3:30 p.m. prompted expressions of exasperation, touched off a flurry of 
> evacuations from stores and restaurants and left the normally bustling 
> thoroughfare in steamy paralysis.
> 
> Under a smoky haze, and amid fears of further outbreaks, the street filled 
> with emergency vehicles but was closed to other traffic east of Wisconsin 
> Avenue. That choked off one of the major commuter routes out of downtown 
> Washington.
> 
> On one of the hottest days of the year, electricity was cut off to about 
> 1,600 homes and businesses, halting computers and cash registers, not to 
> mention refrigerators and air conditioning units. . . .
> 
> One of the most violent underground explosions occurred only a few feet 
> away on M Street in February 2000, flinging a manhole cover into the air. . 
. .
> 
> A preliminary investigation indicated that the fire started around 30th and 
> M streets possibly as a result of a short circuit or other fault in a 
> secondary system, Potomac Electric Power Co. officials said. They said it 
> spread east along a main cable.
> 
> Pepco announced a $30 million plan last month to replace its aging 
> underground electrical network in Georgetown, as a means of solving the 
> chronic problem. . . .
> 
> - Jed


CHUD's been  busy!

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mail from a non-subscriber (below)

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:03:09 -0700
From: JCarey9622 aol.com
To: etimes teleport.com, jedrothwell@infinite-energy.com,
    vortex-l eskimo.com, beenergy@telusplanet.net
Subject: Reply to Jeds mail 

>From Jed Rothwell  to the vortex group    If they will demonstrate and sell 
prototypes to me, I will bring them
>millions immediately, and billions in a few years. They would not even to
>sell me shares of the company; just license me to sell the machines. I am
>100% serious about this........

Reply  From Jack Carey  Confidential Technologies Flint Mi. An overall view.  
To Jed      I do not know who you are  referring to.  SIR  Every thing I told 
you was the truth. I will ask about the cost of the restart for Natural 
Magnet Motor. Ken did see the unit and the material that produces the fields 
that run it..  I hope someone else besides us  has something we would like to 
see it. It would make it easier on us. At this point Jed I do not think 
anyone on this planet is on our level in regard to  generating  power that 
actually does something usefull without consumption.    I may be wrong.

  We are real bored as you are I assume with situations that do not make 
coffee as Gene Mallove says. Also we are light years beyond TESLA. And anyone 
can make cute toys. But if that is what you want instead of serious Tech. 
that will power up this planet for the next few hundred years we will 
obligee. Jed if you can bring Millions to the table it may be the time to 
consider doing it. If you wait the chance will be gone. Please do not make 
the same mistake that Gene is making. But that is your business. If your a 
visionary in any way it may be time to use that ability or at least 
investigate my claims first hand.. 

The inventor did reinvent and refine some of TESLA'S stuff 20 years ago. And 
will do more. The timing  is right this time to introduce it was not right 
then.  I have only been involved 2 years. As a promoter. Ken from Infinite 
saw our stuff and did not understand it. Gene did not come and it appears 
that he does not either. We stopped short on giving them any more Info. on 
the obsolete 220 to 3 Phase that they think is revolutionary. We told them 
how do make it until we were blue in the face and they still did not get it. 
The mechanic that use to be a truck driver that came with the East coast 
group Memorial Day weekend is not haveing a problem following instructions. 
My  guess is he is self taught and does not have a linear education standing 
in his way that is stopping him from understanding how to recreate it. What 
do you think?..Sir I'm not trying to be arrogant or presumptions or a smart 
ass in any way. But those are the facts . 

 If our more advanced Tech.  works and can be sold to the public what is the 
difference. We have 20 million Amish waiting for the 80 Amp true sine wave DC 
to AC 220 V with a 100 Amp surge is that is self contained. They do not care 
about verification from Infinite Energy or anybody else. At this point we do 
not either. The 110 to 3 phase by itself could be a major product but we have 
progressed far beyond it. It is not a toy and could bite hard if misused. 
That is the main reason we will not market it by itself. 

If our advanced stuff Works as advertised we feel that  is the key.  Any 
Negative or positive comment from you would be appreciated.  That is the 
point that I think they are missing at Infinite. With what has happened since 
they came here. We do not need them anymore. They had there chance and they 
blew it. It is there loss not ours. Gene is to arrogant for us Plus he is a 
control type.  We really liked Ken. Plus we will need a chemist in time and 
he is very qualified. We shall see.  Plus we were told by several people that 
they would only use the 220 to 3 phase  to get funding. 

Maybe you could see the chance of a lifetime. As the East coast Co. did that 
is flying us out the week after the fourth. Our stuff is Not for sale. Just 
licensing. Money or glory is not that important either. The money is nice to 
have. I'm sending the flight info. that they sent us to possibly prove that 
we are for real. The main goal is preserving our planet for our decedents. We 
are not that important. We only think we are. We are destroying our 
environment because of our greed and unwillingness to change. We feel It is 
our duty to our grandchildren to do everything in our power to reverse that 
process if we can. I have pontificated enough........
>
>If a prototype machine can be fabricated for less than $10,000, so-called
>"deep pockets" are not called for, and in fact people with lots of money,
>power and influence would be more trouble than they are worth. Most major
>discoveries have succeeded without established financial backing. In fact,
>most required no outside investment capital until they matured into billion
>dollar industries. One of the perverse ideas popularized during the dot-com
>boom was that new ventures require hundreds of millions of dollars. A
>dot-com venture or the device described by Meland are both easily scaled
>from a handful of employees in a garage to thousands of employees. This
>kind of venture would not require more than $100,000 to launch. If the
>machine is real, I can and will launch it myself in a few weeks.

 Reply      The larger the investment The higher the percentage of the return

.>
> > Some of the name calling > > on this list is counterproductive and is 
indicitative of low level
> > technicians.
>
>Nonsense. No one is "calling names." We are demanding substance instead of
>hot air. > 
>  A truce on this kind of activity would be in the best interest
> > of all concerned
>
>What does that mean? Mr. Meland want to publish imaginary claims without a
>shred of evidence, and he does not want anyone else to demand proof, or
>rigor, or even the names of the inventors! Whenever he is challenged to
>provide the smallest detail, he refuses. We are not allowed warn people
>that such claims typically published by scam artists trolling for victims.
>What Meland is doing is unethical, unscientific and contrary to the spirit
>and purpose of this mailing list. It would be in the best interests of
>everyone here if he would put up or shut up. If he is allowed to publish
>this kind of garbage indefinitely, he will degrade this mailing list until
>it is no better than the Keelynet. Already, several scientists have told me
>privately they are signing off.  Jed

 REPLY    Mr Meland has not seen our stuff but has talked to a Amish 
physicist engineer that has been here.     I agree about scam artists and big 
money that wants to control. Big money that wants to make a difference is a 
different story. We have run into the scam's to . The plasma fusion reactor 
guy is one of them from what we can tell. We talked to him the other day. He 
gives people that may really have something a bad name. But the fact is.  Mr. 
Meland is bound by confidentiality with us. He may have a real tiger by the 
tail and I'm possibly one of those tails. The tiger is the inventor. There 
may be others also I do not know at this point but will find out soon if 
anyone else is on our level..As of yet we have not found anyone. But keep 
looking and hopeing.

 He may be able to shut up anyone he wants to that thinks they know it all 
real soon.. (We are the first ones to admit that we do not know it all.)  We 
will make sure of that if he wants to.. Because he has help us more than he 
knows as Dr. Hal Fox has without asking for anything in return. I feel That 
is the mark of a real gentlemen that wants to see positive changes happen in 
our society.   Jack Carey non technical spokes person..

 Everybody take your best shot if you want to or come here and possibly 
broaden your horizons as others have. It will be necessary to discard your 
conventual knowledge about electricity first..Sorry things change and new 
provable knowledge that can be physically demonstrated prevails. We will blow 
a few accepted theories away for you if you decide to come as a bonus.  And 
replace them with news ones that actually work. Anybody Game. This is not a 
perpetual motion claim so do not even go there. TESLA did a lot of it 100 
years ago so it is nothing new. Blame our worthless education system for not 
teaching Tesla .And our Govt. for trying to suppress solutions.  If our 
system would encourage creative thinking instead of  preaching conformity we 
would not have all the environmental problems we do.. 

 Excuse the length of this mail and my barley adequate and unscientific 
writing abilities. Plus all the sub standard words I use.    No body is 
perfect.  If my points are not clear call me. We will be coming out with 
several diverse and radical new Technologies that may have profound effects. 
He is looking for the answer to Zero time presently he feels the current 
conclusion is a paradox. The speed of light theory does not work as it 
stands. 

  What has been accomplished is Einstein's quantum mechanics, the three fold 
unified theory and string and super string theories has been combined into 
one situation that actually works? A statement that bold should fire up 
everybody.  Be prepared to play hard ball if necessary if you talk to the 
inventor. He can converse at the Ph.D. level and far beyond present day 
knowledge in about 9 different areas of science. Put him to the test but be 
prepared to be tested also. He has created new physics that will be published 
in time..    Infinite Energy did not have a clue what he was talking about.

Even linear educated Nobel prize winning physicists get lost after a few 
minutes because they are trying to understand the process not the advanced 
concept's.. Plus his inventions will fall apart in pieces or implode if you 
try to reverse engineer them. That does not mean that no one can do it. If 
you can reverse engineer our stuff we want to talk to you and have you join 
our team if possible or a least make a deal with you. that will benefit both 
party's. High end self taught Auto mechanics or promoters like me do not have 
a problem with the concepts. He does not release the processes and will not 
until they become obsolete like the 220 to 3 phase..       . 

DOW CORNING  said he was a living version of Einstein and TESLA.    Anybody 
want to play.  I'm not joking and I do not care if anyone believes the 
statement..  I know it is the truth. In time the world will know it also. We 
are looking forward to speaking with anyone that wants to make a positive 
difference in our society. Two heads are better than one. No arrogant 
attitude's on this end..Only Respect for anyone that contacts us. 
810 744 9587 Home     Page 810 812 4033 enter No. or Email  He is only 
available to talk Sat. afternoons and evenings. Except the first week of 
July. He will be off then.   Thank You for your time.
>

>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 15 02:07:25 2001
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Carbon-arcs producing iron... any news?
In-Reply-To: <003101c0ff87$d52df2c0$9f89cacf compaq>
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For the upcoming keelynet conference I'm going to demo the production of
magnetic particles in carbon arcs.  This was discussed on vortex back
around early 1997 I believe, and a bit from Gene Mallove can be found at
http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/carbiron.txt.    I was given some
spectrograph carbons (analysis ~2ppm silicon and manganese), and they make
"iron" bits just as readily as do the projector arc-lamp carbons.


Has anyone heard any recent news about this?



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 15 04:48:11 2001
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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:57:26 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner MTAONLINE.NET (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: What happened to Horace Heffner?
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At 12:20 AM 6/13/1, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>Is Horace just busy doing other things, or is he ill? I haven't seen a post
>from him for a very long time. --MJ

Just busy doing other things, but thanks for noticing!  I read about 1 in
10 vortex posts once in a while.  Not much going on.  Looks like vortex has
lost its serious character.  It seems to be almost all popular science
stuff now.  My interests have been displaced toward some pure math lately,
no physics.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 15 10:14:20 2001
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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:13:22 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Confidential Technologies, Flint MI
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Yesterday someone named Jack Carey called me on the telephone, and I see he 
has now published a message here on Vortex. He is one of the people Bruce 
Meland has referred to. He makes many extravagant and unbelievable claims. 
Let me report a few of them here. What he told me does not square with what 
he has told other people, and he kept changing the story. His descriptions 
are difficult to sort out because he mixes up power and energy, as well as 
watts, amps, volts, radiation and magnetism.

First, he has a device which supposedly inputs 990 watts single phase AC 
and outputs 11,250 watts 3-phase AC, yet for some reason, it cannot be run 
in a self-sustaining mode. I tried several times to explain what that 
means, and Carey gave me quite a long song-and-dance response. The gist of 
it is, they are planning to make it self-sustain, and they hope to do it 
soon, but the task will require $20 million.

Second, he already has a self-sustaining device, a smaller version the size 
of a shoebox. He has not mentioned this machine to other people who have 
visited him and spoken with him recently; I do not know why he chose to 
reveal it to me, but since I am not under any kind of Non Disclosure 
Agreement (NDA) I suppose there is no harm in reporting it here. This 
machine worked in a self-sustaining mode either 10, 15 or 20 years ago, 
depending on which version of the story he tells. I asked whether the 
machine still exists, and why it cannot be turned on again. He said the 
machine is perfectly intact, but it is dangerous, it emits magnetic fields 
that will "mess up your DNA" if you stand closer than 30 feet away from the 
machine. I said, "in that case why don't you run it in a location 30 feet 
away from anyone?" He said you have to stand directly over the machine when 
you start it up. I asked "How do you start it? Why can't that be done from 
a distance? It took me several minutes to explain what I had in mind. Here 
is a sample of the exchange, to the best of my memory:

Me:"Why not power it up with a 30 foot long wire?"

JC: "It doesn't start with electricity."

Me: "Then how does it start, with a rope or a lanyard, like a lawn mower?"

JC: "No, you put the magnetism into the thing. When you assemble it, it 
starts up."
Me: "What precisely do you mean? What do you do with your hand that makes 
the thing go?"

JC: "You assemble it."

Me: "I guess you mean put the top on, or screw the equipment case shut. So 
why can't you perform the last step of assembly from a safe distance away?"

JC: "You mean with a robot? That would take tons of money! 20 million!"

Me: "I hardly think so . . . Just the last stage of putting the case 
together . . ."

JC: "We just can't control the thing."

Me: "But you told me earlier you ran it for years, sometimes continuously 
for months at a time. And it is still in perfect repair, left just as it 
was the last time you demonstrated it to the people from Corning. You were 
able to control it all those years, why can't you control it now?"

JC: "We need to develop a new one, for $20 million, with a plastic shell to 
prevent the 20 megacycle magnetism from hurting your DNA."

Me: "That's fascinating, but if plastic will do the job, why not devise a 
plastic case for the old machine?"

JC: <pause> "I'll get back to you on that."

This will give the reader a sense of how difficult it is communicate with 
Mr. Carey. Apparently, although they ran the machine many times over a 
period of years, they never devised a simple way to turn it on and off.

Finally, he described a third device. They are a few weeks away from 
developing a cigarette lighter that generates Brown's Gas from a watch 
battery and runs on water. I said I would like to buy a dozen of those 
things, at any price he cares to name. He said they will not be for sale. I 
asked what is the point of having all these wonderful gadgets if they are 
not for sale. He said he would get back to me with a price, but in the 
meanwhile would I be interested in investing. I said no.

In his message to posted here, Carey repeats some of these claims. He says: 
"And anyone can make cute toys." I asked him to make a small, self 
sustaining version his device, but he said no, they will only make huge 
ones, large enough for a house or a neighborhood. As far as I know, nobody 
has ever made a "cute toy" that does the things he describes. Naturally, as 
far as I know this is utterly impossible, but I would be willing to go look 
at one after seeing a video of a "cute toy" in operation.

Carey hopes to prevent all of his customers from reverse engineering the 
product. I mentioned that the U.L. and all government and state regulatory 
agencies demand a complete description of the product and working models -- 
in essence they demand that you reverse engineer it for them, and tell the 
world every detail of every machine sold in the U.S. He did not believe 
this, or he discounted it, insisting that he will be allowed to sell to 
"Amish" people. All of the Amish people I have encountered live in 
Pennsylvania, which has a strong regulatory and consumer protection 
agencies, and Amish people are generally prudent, law abiding folks who 
will not risk their health or fire insurance with untested, uncertified, 
revolutionary technology. I personally would not *think* of bringing a 
large, mysterious, energy-generating machine anywhere near my house until 
it had been tested exhaustively for years by government and private 
agencies, including exposure to lab rats and primates. I doubt that Carey 
will find many people willing to do this, and I am quite sure he cannot 
prevent people from reverse engineering these machines. Any attempt to do 
so is a futile waste of time, and any business plan that depends upon 
finding customers who will not reverse engineer is doomed.

Carey writes: "Jed if you can bring Millions to the table it may be the 
time to consider doing it." No, it will be the time when Carey or someone 
else in his organization makes a coherent case for doing so, when they give 
me some credible evidence the machine(s) actually exist, and they describe 
a plan which might generate a profit.

He writes: "The inventor did reinvent and refine some of TESLA'S stuff 20 
years ago." I do not believe that Tesla himself, or anyone else, ever built 
any of the machines he describe. I think all of these claims are hogwash. I 
will not be persuaded otherwise by words or bold claims made by scientific 
illiterates such as Carey. If he wishes to persuade me -- or anyone else -- 
he will have to provide actual evidence, including a description of the 
device, test data, and a video.

I mentioned that most major discoveries have succeeded without established 
financial backing. Carey replies: "The larger the investment The higher the 
percentage of the return." This answer makes no sense whatsoever. The 
largest private fortune in the world, belonging to Bill Gates, began with 
an "investment" of two meters of paper tape. No other outside investment 
was ever required; Microsoft could have been purely self-financing, but it 
grew so large that some of the stockholders and the SEC asked Gates to take 
it public. The second largest private fortune, belonging to the Ford 
family, was self-financed from 1903 until Ford went public in 1956. The 
size of the initial investment in a venture of this nature has absolutely 
nothing to do with the eventual return, except in old-line, high capital, 
established industries, mining and the like.

Carey modestly describes his own role:

	Jack Carey non technical spokes person..

That hardly does justice. Despite this non technical role, he speaks:

	What has been accomplished is Einstein's quantum mechanics, the
	three fold unified theory and string and super string theories
	has been combined into one situation that actually works? A
	statement that bold should fire up everybody.

Indeed, I am so fired up I can barely breath. Unfortunately, I have no clue 
what this might mean, and I suspect it means absolutely nothing. In any 
case, Carey does not understand some basic mechanics and simple concepts 
about energy and electricity, so I doubt he understands quantum mechanics 
or string theory. He is, at best, parroting someone else. If he or that 
other person wishes to convince anyone outside of their circle, they should 
start with me, because I am more open minded than a typical university 
professor. All they have to do is present simple, credible, experimental 
evidence. The string theory can stay in the box.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 15 11:21:03 2001
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Message-ID: <000601c0f5c7$fb74d990$0c6cd626 varisys.com>
From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1010615015535.27166A-100000 eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Carbon-arcs producing iron... any news?
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:21:22 -0400
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Hi Bill B,
I recently purchased from Amazon.com the following book:

Molecular Magnetism - New Magnetic Materials
By Koichi Itoh and Minoru Kinoshita
Pub. by Kodansha Tokyo & Gordon and Breach Science Publishers
347 pages, copyright 2000

Apparently hydrocarbon based ferromagnetic (but without iron) 
materials have been a very active area of research in Japan in
recent years. The materials often include carbon ring
structures and nitrogen. I have only read a small portion 
of the book, but it would appear to explain the generation of magnetic
particles from carbon in an air arc. The air would supply water and
nitrogen to allow formation of the magnetic hydrocarbons. It
would appear to be necessary to analyze the magnetic particles
from your pure carbon rods for iron content before claiming
iron production.
Regards,
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 15 11:39:42 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel 
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Before Mike Carrell catches me, let me restate this. I wrote:

	There is enough wind energy at sea -- in the North Sea close to
	land, in water less than 50 meters deep -- to drive all the electric
	turbines in Northern Europe.

But it would not be practical to generate ALL electricity from wind! In 
some parts of Northern Europe they generate about half from wind. That may 
be the practical limit. The problem is that heavy storms can disrupt the 
supply. Light winds are as much a problem, thanks to the power distribution 
network. Over an area hundreds of kilometers across, at a height of 50 
meters above the sea or ground, the wind is always blowing somewhere. The 
solar energy has to go somewhere.

Storms disrupt convention generators, mainly by blowing down power lines. 
In California, the Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant, that is cooled by 
ocean water, reduced power 20% in January when a storm tore kelp off the 
ocean floor, which clogged the cooling water inlet.

Also in California, the 1120 MW San Onofre-3 plant had a serious accident 
on Feb. 3, 2001, which shut it down for three months. A circuit breaker in 
the turbine building caused a fire which burned for either 30 minutes or 3 
hours, depending on which newspaper you believe. The reactor was scrammed 
(naturally). The fire damaged all three redundant oil pumps, which in turn 
"seriously damaged" the bearings and shaft on one turbine, or four 
turbines, depending on which newspaper you believe.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 15 12:37:59 2001
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Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel 
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I wrote: "The problem is that heavy storms can disrupt the supply. Light 
winds are as much a problem, thanks to the power distribution network. . . 
."  Meant NOT as much of a problem. Particularly with good weather reporting.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 15 17:23:52 2001
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Subject: Re: Carbon-arcs producing iron... any news?
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Please tell us how it goes, for those of us who can't make it to the
conference. ;-)

William Beaty wrote:
> 
> For the upcoming keelynet conference I'm going to demo the production of
> magnetic particles in carbon arcs.  This was discussed on vortex back
> around early 1997 I believe, and a bit from Gene Mallove can be found at
> http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/carbiron.txt.    I was given some
> spectrograph carbons (analysis ~2ppm silicon and manganese), and they make
> "iron" bits just as readily as do the projector arc-lamp carbons.
> 
> Has anyone heard any recent news about this?
> 
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 15 17:50:00 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jun 15, 2001
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:32:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 15 Jun 01   Washington, DC

1. HOLT BILL WOULD RESURRECT OTA! "ENOUGH ACADEMIC DISCUSSION."
Ironically, after promising to reduce government, about the only
agency terminated by the Republican Congress in 1995 was its own
advisory body (WN 29 Sep 95).  The Office of Technology
Assessment was sacrificed to demonstrate that in downsizing the
federal bureaucracy Congress would not exempt itself, but it was
also symbolic of the low priority members of Congress accorded to
objective scientific information.  H.R. 2148, introduced today by
Rep. Rush Holt (D-NJ), would authorize OTA at $20M, which is
right where it was when it died.  It comes at a time when major
policy questions affecting the environment and  national defense
call for sound science advice.  At the very highest level of
government, however, there is no White House science advisor. 

2. EVOLUTION: SENATE TACKS AMENDMENT ON MAJOR EDUCATION BILL. A
"sense of the Senate" resolution, dealing with the teaching of
biological evolution, was added to the bill.  Introduced by Sen.
Santorum (R-PA), the language raises concerns among scientists
that it could be used by "intelligent design" (ID) proponents to
insist that ID be given equal time.  That does not seem to have
been the intent of most of the measure's supporters.  It states
that students should be prepared to distinguish testable science
from "philosophical or religious claims made in the name of
science."  That sounds good.  Alas, the bill also calls for
helping students "to understand why this subject generates so
much continuing controversy."  That's an opening to teach ID.

3. PASSIVE RADAR?  REMOVING THE CLOAK OF INVISIBILITY.  So just
how stealthy is the $3.6B stealth bomber?  Radar would need to
look straight up at the bomber's flat bottom surface.  Tracking
would therefore require a vast array of antennas.  But according
to a story early this week in the London Daily Telegraph, such
arrays already exist: Roke Manor Research in Britain claims that
stealth aircraft can be tracked by their effect on ordinary
mobile phone traffic.  News media in the US did not discover the
story until last night.  The Pentagon is taking it seriously, and
other nations, including China, are now developing such a system.

4. ASTROLOGICAL STUDIES?  CLUELESS IN SEATTLE.  I'm not making
this up.  The Higher Education Coordinating Board of the state of
Washington has authorized Kepler College of Astrological Arts and
Sciences in Seattle to issue BA and MA degrees in Astrological
Studies.  According to Kepler's web site, "No other degree-
granting college or university in recent centuries has offered an
academically sound approach to the study of astrology."  I wonder
why that is?  Seattle, of course, is also the home of Bastyr
University, a school of Naturopathy that "integrates modern
science with the wisdom of ancient healing practices," and home
of the Discovery Institute, http://www.discovery.org/.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's,
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 16 09:05:47 2001
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Dear Vortexians; I will be coming to Cincinnati, complements of Toyota next
week for an unveiling of some of their technology  and on   the weekend
going to visit revolutionary technology on the weekend in the general area
including perhaps Jacks technology in Detroit, mentioned below, and if
anyone with Voltage and amperage meters and electrical technical savy  in
the Cicninnati- Detroit area wants me to pick them up and go with me to get
some information that Jed and Infinite Energy or others have been
requesting- to see the proof of this advanced type technology- let me know
right away. I think there is a Vortexian in the Dayton area that might want
to come along and also perhaps a retired NASA Engineer.  Sincerely Bruce
Meland, editor Electrifying Times
-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, June 15, 2001 1:11 AM
Subject: Reply to Jeds mail (fwd)


>
>mail from a non-subscriber (below)
>
>((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
>William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:03:09 -0700
>From: JCarey9622 aol.com
>To: etimes teleport.com, jedrothwell@infinite-energy.com,
>    vortex-l eskimo.com, beenergy@telusplanet.net
>Subject: Reply to Jeds mail
>
>>From Jed Rothwell  to the vortex group    If they will demonstrate and
sell
>prototypes to me, I will bring them
>>millions immediately, and billions in a few years. They would not even to
>>sell me shares of the company; just license me to sell the machines. I am
>>100% serious about this........
>
>Reply  From Jack Carey  Confidential Technologies Flint Mi. An overall
view.
>To Jed      I do not know who you are  referring to.  SIR  Every thing I
told
>you was the truth. I will ask about the cost of the restart for Natural
>Magnet Motor. Ken did see the unit and the material that produces the
fields
>that run it..  I hope someone else besides us  has something we would like
to
>see it. It would make it easier on us. At this point Jed I do not think
>anyone on this planet is on our level in regard to  generating  power that
>actually does something usefull without consumption.    I may be wrong.
>
>  We are real bored as you are I assume with situations that do not make
>coffee as Gene Mallove says. Also we are light years beyond TESLA. And
anyone
>can make cute toys. But if that is what you want instead of serious Tech.
>that will power up this planet for the next few hundred years we will
>obligee. Jed if you can bring Millions to the table it may be the time to
>consider doing it. If you wait the chance will be gone. Please do not make
>the same mistake that Gene is making. But that is your business. If your a
>visionary in any way it may be time to use that ability or at least
>investigate my claims first hand..
>
>The inventor did reinvent and refine some of TESLA'S stuff 20 years ago.
And
>will do more. The timing  is right this time to introduce it was not right
>then.  I have only been involved 2 years. As a promoter. Ken from Infinite
>saw our stuff and did not understand it. Gene did not come and it appears
>that he does not either. We stopped short on giving them any more Info. on
>the obsolete 220 to 3 Phase that they think is revolutionary. We told them
>how do make it until we were blue in the face and they still did not get
it.
>The mechanic that use to be a truck driver that came with the East coast
>group Memorial Day weekend is not haveing a problem following instructions.
>My  guess is he is self taught and does not have a linear education
standing
>in his way that is stopping him from understanding how to recreate it. What

>do you think?..Sir I'm not trying to be arrogant or presumptions or a smart
>ass in any way. But those are the facts .
>
> If our more advanced Tech.  works and can be sold to the public what is
the
>difference. We have 20 million Amish waiting for the 80 Amp true sine wave
DC
>to AC 220 V with a 100 Amp surge is that is self contained. They do not
care
>about verification from Infinite Energy or anybody else. At this point we
do
>not either. The 110 to 3 phase by itself could be a major product but we
have
>progressed far beyond it. It is not a toy and could bite hard if misused.
>That is the main reason we will not market it by itself.
>
>If our advanced stuff Works as advertised we feel that  is the key.  Any
>Negative or positive comment from you would be appreciated.  That is the
>point that I think they are missing at Infinite. With what has happened
since
>they came here. We do not need them anymore. They had there chance and they
>blew it. It is there loss not ours. Gene is to arrogant for us Plus he is a
>control type.  We really liked Ken. Plus we will need a chemist in time and
>he is very qualified. We shall see.  Plus we were told by several people
that
>they would only use the 220 to 3 phase  to get funding.
>
>Maybe you could see the chance of a lifetime. As the East coast Co. did
that
>is flying us out the week after the fourth. Our stuff is Not for sale. Just
>licensing. Money or glory is not that important either. The money is nice
to
>have. I'm sending the flight info. that they sent us to possibly prove that
>we are for real. The main goal is preserving our planet for our decedents.
We
>are not that important. We only think we are. We are destroying our
>environment because of our greed and unwillingness to change. We feel It is
>our duty to our grandchildren to do everything in our power to reverse that
>process if we can. I have pontificated enough........
>>
>>If a prototype machine can be fabricated for less than $10,000, so-called
>>"deep pockets" are not called for, and in fact people with lots of money,
>>power and influence would be more trouble than they are worth. Most major
>>discoveries have succeeded without established financial backing. In fact,
>>most required no outside investment capital until they matured into
billion
>>dollar industries. One of the perverse ideas popularized during the
dot-com
>>boom was that new ventures require hundreds of millions of dollars. A
>>dot-com venture or the device described by Meland are both easily scaled
>>from a handful of employees in a garage to thousands of employees. This
>>kind of venture would not require more than $100,000 to launch. If the
>>machine is real, I can and will launch it myself in a few weeks.
>
> Reply      The larger the investment The higher the percentage of the
return
>
>.>
>> > Some of the name calling > > on this list is counterproductive and is
>indicitative of low level
>> > technicians.
>>
>>Nonsense. No one is "calling names." We are demanding substance instead of
>>hot air. >
>>  A truce on this kind of activity would be in the best interest
>> > of all concerned
>>
>>What does that mean? Mr. Meland want to publish imaginary claims without a
>>shred of evidence, and he does not want anyone else to demand proof, or
>>rigor, or even the names of the inventors! Whenever he is challenged to
>>provide the smallest detail, he refuses. We are not allowed warn people
>>that such claims typically published by scam artists trolling for victims.
>>What Meland is doing is unethical, unscientific and contrary to the spirit
>>and purpose of this mailing list. It would be in the best interests of
>>everyone here if he would put up or shut up. If he is allowed to publish
>>this kind of garbage indefinitely, he will degrade this mailing list until
>>it is no better than the Keelynet. Already, several scientists have told
me
>>privately they are signing off.  Jed
>
> REPLY    Mr Meland has not seen our stuff but has talked to a Amish
>physicist engineer that has been here.     I agree about scam artists and
big
>money that wants to control. Big money that wants to make a difference is a
>different story. We have run into the scam's to . The plasma fusion reactor
>guy is one of them from what we can tell. We talked to him the other day.
He
>gives people that may really have something a bad name. But the fact is.
Mr.
>Meland is bound by confidentiality with us. He may have a real tiger by the
>tail and I'm possibly one of those tails. The tiger is the inventor. There
>may be others also I do not know at this point but will find out soon if
>anyone else is on our level..As of yet we have not found anyone. But keep
>looking and hopeing.
>
> He may be able to shut up anyone he wants to that thinks they know it all
>real soon.. (We are the first ones to admit that we do not know it all.)
We
>will make sure of that if he wants to.. Because he has help us more than he
>knows as Dr. Hal Fox has without asking for anything in return. I feel That
>is the mark of a real gentlemen that wants to see positive changes happen
in
>our society.   Jack Carey non technical spokes person..
>
> Everybody take your best shot if you want to or come here and possibly
>broaden your horizons as others have. It will be necessary to discard your
>conventual knowledge about electricity first..Sorry things change and new
>provable knowledge that can be physically demonstrated prevails. We will
blow
>a few accepted theories away for you if you decide to come as a bonus.  And
>replace them with news ones that actually work. Anybody Game. This is not a
>perpetual motion claim so do not even go there. TESLA did a lot of it 100
>years ago so it is nothing new. Blame our worthless education system for
not
>teaching Tesla .And our Govt. for trying to suppress solutions.  If our
>system would encourage creative thinking instead of  preaching conformity
we
>would not have all the environmental problems we do..
>
> Excuse the length of this mail and my barley adequate and unscientific
>writing abilities. Plus all the sub standard words I use.    No body is
>perfect.  If my points are not clear call me. We will be coming out with
>several diverse and radical new Technologies that may have profound
effects.
>He is looking for the answer to Zero time presently he feels the current
>conclusion is a paradox. The speed of light theory does not work as it
>stands.
>
>  What has been accomplished is Einstein's quantum mechanics, the three
fold
>unified theory and string and super string theories has been combined into
>one situation that actually works? A statement that bold should fire up
>everybody.  Be prepared to play hard ball if necessary if you talk to the
>inventor. He can converse at the Ph.D. level and far beyond present day
>knowledge in about 9 different areas of science. Put him to the test but be
>prepared to be tested also. He has created new physics that will be
published
>in time..    Infinite Energy did not have a clue what he was talking about.
>
>Even linear educated Nobel prize winning physicists get lost after a few
>minutes because they are trying to understand the process not the advanced
>concept's.. Plus his inventions will fall apart in pieces or implode if you
>try to reverse engineer them. That does not mean that no one can do it. If
>you can reverse engineer our stuff we want to talk to you and have you join
>our team if possible or a least make a deal with you. that will benefit
both
>party's. High end self taught Auto mechanics or promoters like me do not
have
>a problem with the concepts. He does not release the processes and will not
>until they become obsolete like the 220 to 3 phase..       .
>
>DOW CORNING  said he was a living version of Einstein and TESLA.    Anybody
>want to play.  I'm not joking and I do not care if anyone believes the
>statement..  I know it is the truth. In time the world will know it also.
We
>are looking forward to speaking with anyone that wants to make a positive
>difference in our society. Two heads are better than one. No arrogant
>attitude's on this end..Only Respect for anyone that contacts us.
>810 744 9587 Home     Page 810 812 4033 enter No. or Email  He is only
>available to talk Sat. afternoons and evenings. Except the first week of
>July. He will be off then.   Thank You for your time.
>>
>
>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 16 09:10:43 2001
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References: <031e01c0f2cb$71f5f040$e2b4bfa8 computer>
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Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:09:28 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel
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>It is kind of like generating energy from hog manure; by itself that 
>process would not economically competitive with fossil fuel, but 
>since the material has to be processed anyway, for other reasons, we 
>might as well derive energy as a byproduct.
>
>- Jed

Sorry to be a wet blanket for this energy source Jed, but hog manure 
is more valuable as a soil amendment than as energy. OTOH, you could 
spread it on the ground and grow industrial hemp which you then burn 
for energy.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 16 09:11:03 2001
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: time dilation fields
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Since John Schnurer failed to see this posting I am reposting it.

Fellow Vortexians;

Last night Art Bell replayed an interview with Dr. David Anderson. of 
time travel associates. http://www.time-travel.com/

The doctor has a laboratory on Long Island in which he has created a 
plasma generator which produces a time dilation. According to him, a 
clock placed in the field will go 3 times as fast as a similar clock 
outside of it. The field is produced by intense magnetic fields 
interacting with a rotating electromagnetic field and a laser ring 
requiring 12 lasers. The lasers ionize the gas which opens the field.

During the interview a young woman named Ann called in and asked him 
some very interesting questions, She wanted to know if he was using a 
Squid interface, he was not. She wanted to know how he was 
controlling the field, He replied that it was controlled by 6 
injector sensor arrays. which had 43 data points from the 6 arrays 
which feed data into the control system. She wanted to know if he was 
experiencing residual field difusion. He replied that they were. He 
went on to say that when they retard the time field the field becomes 
unstable. The inner field becomes unstable and the field collapses. 
This spreading of the inner shell destroys biological organisms in 
the field.   The control mechanism is based on the data collected by 
interferometers which feeds data into the control system. The biggest 
problem that they are having is modeling the field. Ann started 
questioning him about fuzzy logic and some other mathematical 
modeling system, but Art cut her off. That's what I hate most about 
Art, is his cutting callers off.

During the February interview ( when it was run live ) I heard this 
caller and I am pleased to be able to share this interaction with you 
all.

What follows was in the first part of the interview.

Once the field is established the amount of energy required to 
maintain it decreases. The reason for this is not understood.

The plasma surrounding the field produces a doppler effect which 
distorts the color of the object in the field until it turns black.

During the mathematical theorizing about this, the doctor solved the 
problem of satellite's failure to be where they were predicted to be. 
I don't know if this explains the present position of the Voyager's 
or not. The doctor's theorizing accounts for frame dragging which I 
would assume would only apply in the vicinity of a planet. Frame 
dragging is the distortion in space which occurs in the vicinity of a 
planetary body as a result of it's rotation. The magnetic field of 
the planet contributes to this effect too. I've been looking for an 
explanation of frame dragging.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 16 10:42:18 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 09:25:42 -0700
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Hey Jed Parks; since when are you the authority in most energy issues and
debunking technology that you know nothing or very little about?. Yes you
sound like Parks most of the time. Listen to this; Bernie Faber an Oregon
Dairyman is conducting a pilot plant operation in cooperation with Portland
General Electric to produce electricity from dairy cow manure. PGE has
installed a 125 KW generator on the faber farm that will convert methane gas
to electricity to power about 60 homes. year around, near Salem Oregon . The
450 cow heard manure will be pumped into a waste concrete waste digester
approx 30 feet in diameter and 25 ft high.  Proof of the pudding is a pilot
plant. Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, June 16, 2001 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: Other Hyrogen fuel


>>It is kind of like generating energy from hog manure; by itself that
>>process would not economically competitive with fossil fuel, but
>>since the material has to be processed anyway, for other reasons, we
>>might as well derive energy as a byproduct.
>>
>>- Jed
>
>Sorry to be a wet blanket for this energy source Jed, but hog manure
>is more valuable as a soil amendment than as energy. OTOH, you could
>spread it on the ground and grow industrial hemp which you then burn
>for energy.
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 16 11:11:24 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <knagel gis.net>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 09:54:58 -0700
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Hi Keith: Are you from the Cincinnati-Detroit area or know of someone that
can go with me to take some measurments of these outrageous claims? Toyota
will be flying me to Cincinnati for a launch and willl spend the weekend
going to Detroit to take some measurments and talk to one of a few wizzards
I have been refering to. Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, June 10, 2001 9:45 PM
Subject: RE: Mercury Arc Space Drive?


>Hi Fred.
>
>OK, I've done my share of experimenting with mercury
>ignitrons. Is this something like what you have in mind?
>I'll say, when you push a 1000 amps or so thru one
>they make quite a pop, but I haven't seen one take
>off yet. Any suggestions for testing here? I happen to
>have one with all the driver circuitry set up, so
>go ahead...
>
>K.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
>Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 5:47 AM
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net
>Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
>
>
>Just in case experiment for unsure skeptics:
>
>Use two ~1/4 inch diameter tungsten welding rods tightly inserted in a
>quartz or
>ceramic tube (~1.0 mm gap) with a small drop of Hg or Cs contacting them in
>the gap ,
>so that the drop vaporizes when the voltage (24 volts D.C.) is applied with
>the
>negative side up.
>
>If it levitates...  :-)
>
>Regards,   Frederick
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 16 12:04:10 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Amplify?  Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies 
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:09:58 -0700
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Hi John; Live  E  W  N  S  of Dayton?  Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Bruce Meland <etimes teleport.com>
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: Amplify? Re:Clean advanced propulsion technologies


>
>
>
> Dear Bruce,
>
>
> I am 20 miles from Dayton, 55 from Columbus.
>
>
> John
>
>On Tue, 15 May 2001, Bruce Meland wrote:
>
>> Hi John Confidential inquiryl How far do you live from Wooster Ohio? A
Tesla
>> Guy lives there. Thats where the BH are flying. I forwarded Erics offer.
he
>> has all kinds of devices. All is mail is intercepted. I have to go
through a
>> 3rd party to communicate. You live near Dayton right?
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have had enjoyment building Tesla tuned transformers and some of
>> >his resonant circuits.  We did not have a good grasp on the neutron
until
>> >1932.  The "baby neutron" or "tiny neutron" or "little neutron" to use
the
>> >humor of the particle physics of the time comes from Enrico Fermi....
>> >and he and his peers keep the tradition alive.
>> >
>> >> I am an experimentalist and as such revel in a technical puzzle.
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 16 12:35:04 2001
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Fw: Reply to Jed from Jack Carey
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-Date: Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:04 AM
Subject: Reply to Jed from Jack Carey


>Yesterday someone named Jack Carey called me on the telephone, and I see he
>has now published a message here on Vortex. He is one of the people Bruce
>Meland has referred to. He makes many extravagant and unbelievable claims.
>Let me report a few of them here. What he told me does not square with what
>he has told other people, and he kept changing the story. His descriptions
>are difficult to sort out because he mixes up power and energy, as well as
>watts, amps, volts, radiation and magnetism.
>
> REPLY
>
>
>Please bear with me as I go through this  so it is possibly clear to
>everyone. We have  different technologies. Some create power/energy by
>themselves. Some step up power from the grid. I will only cover a few of
them
>at this time. If anyone understands physics on the nuclear level a
colleague
>has invented a new very advanced Tech. also but I will not go into that now
>I will try to be specific on just a couple of situations and be as clear as
I
>can.
>
> First.. Natural Magnetism creates power by itself. (Not Electro) It is a
>different World. You have nothing to compare it with. The Motor can be
>restarted if you want to fund. We are vastly improving the next model. It
>Will cost 20 Million to refine. And about 3 years. This Tech. will make it
>possible for everything to have its own power source and be portable. We
will
>obtain money from a minor invention to accomplish that goal. It will also
>create power by itself but is not as advanced and does not have as many
>applications as Natural Magnetism.
>
> Power source may be small lead acid batteries that require recharging by
our
>proposed  80 Amp. true sine wave DC To AC unit while it is running  or a
new
>proposed hydrogen battery that would provide power and not need to be
>recharged or maybe something else someone has that we have seen a film of
>that we may be able to take to the next step and make it viable as a power
>source. Lead acid is only 92% efficient and would require some external
>charging once in a while. We want 100%. This unit will basically replace
>power Co. as provider of power. And provide power through your existing
>wiring. It can be installed outside. It will require no fossil fuels. And
it
>will be safe and far more cost effective than present delivery systems.
>
>. I'm sorry we will not tell you or anyone else how it actually works
>internally. We have made up something for the international patent so it
>would be a nightmare to try and reproduce. Plus only part of the Info. will
>be in the patent. Plus the unit will come apart in many sealed pieces if
you
>try to open it. Have fun trying to figure out how to reassemble Because it
>will be designed not to work if opened..  If you try to open the sealed
>pieces inside they are designed not function if you try to screw with them.
>You are welcome to try. Good luck. If you figure it out we will come out
with
>a more advanced Tech. that will make it obsolete. Let me know if I have
>missed anything in my effort to stop anyone from reproducing our
inventions.
>
> Currently we only demo. a single phase to 3 phase unit. It is also
designed
>not to function if you screw with it.  It uses 2.4 Amps AC from 110 and
under
>load uses 9 Amps from 110 . To create about 15 Hp. of work. As far as we
know
>this is not Presently possible as far as science knows. Am I talking about
>new physics here. Could that be possible?  And a linear educated person did
>not invent it. Could this be the end of the world or the beginning of a new
>world because our education system fail us as usual? And most of our
current
>electrical knowledge may be worthless.
>
>   To be specific can you run a a large 5 Hp. gas station style air
>compressor to 160 PSI. that now has a 3 Hp. motor on it and only requires
400
>Watts of power to operate and the 3 phase motor never gets any warmer than
10
>Deg. above room Temp.  Also A  6 Foot high Ind. Drill press that only has a
1
>Hp. motor instead of a 2 1/2 plus a 100 Amp arch welder all at the same
time
>with a Max draw from 110 of 9 Amps. Because we can. If this is possible can
>anyone explain it. This could be a product but we have bigger fish to fry.
>
>  This was showed to Ken from Infinite energy but it was beyond his
>understanding.  Jed if your open minded That is a plus. Ken was not. Come
and
>take a look for yourself because your not going to believe anything anyone
>tells you unless you do. And if I was you I would not either. If I send you
a
>tape or you look at the one Gene Mallove has you probably not going to
>believe it anyway. Seeing is possibly believing. If it works and money can
be
>made off of it what is the difference if you can understand it or not.  I
>tried to explain it to you but it was not getting thru  So I gave up.... I
>tried cover to many new Technologies  at one time ....If you come here Your
>linear education will probably not help you to explain our inventions. What
>ever experience you have had since then might.   ............ Please do not
>rely on your TECHNICAL education because most of it will be proven wrong.
>
>. We do not care if you come or not. But you are welcome. Come next weekend
>if you want to when Bruce Meland will be here to verify or disprove our
>claims.. We already have deals on the stove with other companies that are
>cooking because they believe we are for real but we are willing to talk if
>you want to proceed after your convinced we are as advertised. No NDA is
>necessary to see Demo's. We are very open. Because we have nothing to hide.
>Call  Ken at Infinite ask him what he saw. We made the mistake of showing
him
>to much. Maybe cold fusion will work someday. We can make it work but we
want
>our stuff out there first.  If you want to come I will have the inventor
>sort out the rest of your mail to me then.
>
> Plus I would like to discuss the rest of the mail with you in person on
tape
>so every detail is  perfectly clear and can be sent to everyone in vortex
for
>there review. Because some of the things your saying are not exactly right.
>Bring Mallove to . I want him on tape to. That way these discussions will
be
>settled one way or another.  I want to nail you boys to the cross thank you
>for giving me the opportunity to do it in this forum in front of your
peers..
>Now what are going to say or do.  You were easy to set up. You did not see
it
>coming did you. Now is your turn to put up or shut up like you said to
Bruce
>Meland.
>
> Come take your lumps and then lets get down to the business of saving this
>planet we need to work together. Once you accept the fact We have the
>technology to make it happen. It will be easy.  And you and Gene can profit
>from it. How can you lose.   It is up to you. If you were not involved with
>the Magazine I would not have went as far as I did.      Time is running
out
>for you guys to get involved. Frankly, I do not like Gene personally
because
>I think he is arrogant and he does not like me either. But business is
>business .          Bruce Please Post
>
>First, he has a device which supposedly inputs 990 watts single phase AC
>and outputs 11,250 watts 3-phase AC, yet for some reason, it cannot be run
>in a self-sustaining mode. I tried several times to explain what that
>means, and Carey gave me quite a long song-and-dance response. The gist of
>it is, they are planning to make it self-sustain, and they hope to do it
>soon, but the task will require $20 million.
>
>Second, he already has a self-sustaining device, a smaller version the size
>of a shoebox. He has not mentioned this machine to other people who have
>visited him and spoken with him recently; I do not know why he chose to
>reveal it to me, but since I am not under any kind of Non Disclosure
>Agreement (NDA) I suppose there is no harm in reporting it here. This
>machine worked in a self-sustaining mode either 10, 15 or 20 years ago,
>depending on which version of the story he tells. I asked whether the
>machine still exists, and why it cannot be turned on again. He said the
>machine is perfectly intact, but it is dangerous, it emits magnetic fields
>that will "mess up your DNA" if you stand closer than 30 feet away from the
>machine. I said, "in that case why don't you run it in a location 30 feet
>away from anyone?" He said you have to stand directly over the machine when
>you start it up. I asked "How do you start it? Why can't that be done from
>a distance? It took me several minutes to explain what I had in mind. Here
>is a sample of the exchange, to the best of my memory:
>
>Me:"Why not power it up with a 30 foot long wire?"
>
>JC: "It doesn't start with electricity."
>
>Me: "Then how does it start, with a rope or a lanyard, like a lawn mower?"
>
>JC: "No, you put the magnetism into the thing. When you assemble it, it
>starts up."
>Me: "What precisely do you mean? What do you do with your hand that makes
>the thing go?"
>
>JC: "You assemble it."
>
>Me: "I guess you mean put the top on, or screw the equipment case shut. So
>why can't you perform the last step of assembly from a safe distance away?"
>
>JC: "You mean with a robot? That would take tons of money! 20 million!"
>
>Me: "I hardly think so . . . Just the last stage of putting the case
>together . . ."
>
>JC: "We just can't control the thing."
>
>Me: "But you told me earlier you ran it for years, sometimes continuously
>for months at a time. And it is still in perfect repair, left just as it
>was the last time you demonstrated it to the people from Corning. You were
>able to control it all those years, why can't you control it now?"
>
>JC: "We need to develop a new one, for $20 million, with a plastic shell to
>prevent the 20 megacycle magnetism from hurting your DNA."
>
>Me: "That's fascinating, but if plastic will do the job, why not devise a
>plastic case for the old machine?"
>
>JC: <pause> "I'll get back to you on that."
>
>This will give the reader a sense of how difficult it is communicate with
>Mr. Carey. Apparently, although they ran the machine many times over a
>period of years, they never devised a simple way to turn it on and off.
>
>Finally, he described a third device. They are a few weeks away from
>developing a cigarette lighter that generates Brown's Gas from a watch
>battery and runs on water. I said I would like to buy a dozen of those
>things, at any price he cares to name. He said they will not be for sale. I
>asked what is the point of having all these wonderful gadgets if they are
>not for sale. He said he would get back to me with a price, but in the
>meanwhile would I be interested in investing. I said no.
>
>In his message to posted here, Carey repeats some of these claims. He says:
>"And anyone can make cute toys." I asked him to make a small, self
>sustaining version his device, but he said no, they will only make huge
>ones, large enough for a house or a neighborhood. As far as I know, nobody
>has ever made a "cute toy" that does the things he describes. Naturally, as
>far as I know this is utterly impossible, but I would be willing to go look
>at one after seeing a video of a "cute toy" in operation.
>
>Carey hopes to prevent all of his customers from reverse engineering the
>product. I mentioned that the U.L. and all government and state regulatory
>agencies demand a complete description of the product and working models --
>in essence they demand that you reverse engineer it for them, and tell the
>world every detail of every machine sold in the U.S. He did not believe
>this, or he discounted it, insisting that he will be allowed to sell to
>"Amish" people. All of the Amish people I have encountered live in
>Pennsylvania, which has a strong regulatory and consumer protection
>agencies, and Amish people are generally prudent, law abiding folks who
>will not risk their health or fire insurance with untested, uncertified,
>revolutionary technology. I personally would not *think* of bringing a
>large, mysterious, energy-generating machine anywhere near my house until
>it had been tested exhaustively for years by government and private
>agencies, including exposure to lab rats and primates. I doubt that Carey
>will find many people willing to do this, and I am quite sure he cannot
>prevent people from reverse engineering these machines. Any attempt to do
>so is a futile waste of time, and any business plan that depends upon
>finding customers who will not reverse engineer is doomed.
>
>Carey writes: "Jed if you can bring Millions to the table it may be the
>time to consider doing it." No, it will be the time when Carey or someone
>else in his organization makes a coherent case for doing so, when they give
>me some credible evidence the machine(s) actually exist, and they describe
>a plan which might generate a profit.
>
>He writes: "The inventor did reinvent and refine some of TESLA'S stuff 20
>years ago." I do not believe that Tesla himself, or anyone else, ever built
>any of the machines he describe. I think all of these claims are hogwash. I
>will not be persuaded otherwise by words or bold claims made by scientific
>illiterates such as Carey. If he wishes to persuade me -- or anyone else --
>he will have to provide actual evidence, including a description of the
>device, test data, and a video.
>
>I mentioned that most major discoveries have succeeded without established
>financial backing. Carey replies: "The larger the investment The higher the
>percentage of the return." This answer makes no sense whatsoever. The
>largest private fortune in the world, belonging to Bill Gates, began with
>an "investment" of two meters of paper tape. No other outside investment
>was ever required; Microsoft could have been purely self-financing, but it
>grew so large that some of the stockholders and the SEC asked Gates to take
>it public. The second largest private fortune, belonging to the Ford
>family, was self-financed from 1903 until Ford went public in 1956. The
>size of the initial investment in a venture of this nature has absolutely
>nothing to do with the eventual return, except in old-line, high capital,
>established industries, mining and the like.
>
>Carey modestly describes his own role:
>
>    Jack Carey non technical spokes person..
>
>That hardly does justice. Despite this non technical role, he speaks:
>
>    What has been accomplished is Einstein's quantum mechanics, the
>    three fold unified theory and string and super string theories
>    has been combined into one situation that actually works? A
>    statement that bold should fire up everybody.
>
>Indeed, I am so fired up I can barely breath. Unfortunately, I have no clue
>what this might mean, and I suspect it means absolutely nothing. In any
>case, Carey does not understand some basic mechanics and simple concepts
>about energy and electricity, so I doubt he understands quantum mechanics
>or string theory. He is, at best, parroting someone else. If he or that
>other person wishes to convince anyone outside of their circle, they should
>start with me, because I am more open minded than a typical university
>professor. All they have to do is present simple, credible, experimental
>evidence. The string theory can stay in the box.
>
>- Jed
>
>
>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 16 12:49:33 2001
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From: Keasy aol.com
Message-ID: <75.164f0922.285d11fe aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:48:14 EDT
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 6/16/01 10:42:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
etimes teleport.com writes:

> Hey Jed Parks; since when are you the authority in most energy issues and
>  debunking technology that you know nothing or very little about?. Yes you
>  sound like Parks most of the time. Listen to this; Bernie Faber an Oregon
>  Dairyman is conducting a pilot plant operation in cooperation with Portland
>  General Electric to produce electricity from dairy cow manure. PGE has
>  installed a 125 KW generator on the faber farm that will convert methane 
gas
>  to electricity to power about 60 homes. year around, near Salem Oregon . 
The
>  450 cow heard manure will be pumped into a waste concrete waste digester
>  approx 30 feet in diameter and 25 ft high.  Proof of the pudding is   >

 Uh, is "pudding"  the best term to be using here --- ?
                                                                              
       Ken

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 16 13:50:48 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:33:43 -0700
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I hope that was a sarcastic remark. 
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated


>Bruce -
>
>You do know that this isn't any kind of vacuum coherer or potential 
>energy source, don't you? Even JLN and others on that list are clear 
>on that.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 16 14:00:52 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <keasy aol.com>
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:44:31 -0700
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Maybe proof of the bull shit would be better
-----Original Message-----
From: Keasy aol.com <Keasy@aol.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, June 16, 2001 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: Other Hyrogen fuel


>In a message dated 6/16/01 10:42:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>etimes teleport.com writes:
>
>> Hey Jed Parks; since when are you the authority in most energy issues and
>>  debunking technology that you know nothing or very little about?. Yes
you
>>  sound like Parks most of the time. Listen to this; Bernie Faber an
Oregon
>>  Dairyman is conducting a pilot plant operation in cooperation with
Portland
>>  General Electric to produce electricity from dairy cow manure. PGE has
>>  installed a 125 KW generator on the faber farm that will convert methane
>gas
>>  to electricity to power about 60 homes. year around, near Salem Oregon .
>The
>>  450 cow heard manure will be pumped into a waste concrete waste digester
>>  approx 30 feet in diameter and 25 ft high.  Proof of the pudding is   >
>
> Uh, is "pudding"  the best term to be using here --- ?
>
>       Ken
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 16 14:45:06 2001
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From: "R. Wormus" <rwormus lock-load.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:41:47 -0600
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Subject: Re: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated
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Bruce,
No, it is a fact. Read the info. at JLN's site.
Ron

On 16-Jun-01, Bruce Meland etimes teleport.com wrote:

BM> I hope that was a sarcastic remark. 
BM> -----Original Message-----
BM> From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
BM> To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
BM> Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 12:38 PM
BM> Subject: Re: Fw: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated
BM> 
BM> 
BM>> Bruce -
BM>> 
BM>> You do know that this isn't any kind of vacuum coherer or potential 
BM>> energy source, don't you? Even JLN and others on that list are clear 
BM>> on that.
BM>> 
BM>> - Rick Monteverde
BM>> Honolulu, HI
BM>> 
BM>> 
BM> 
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 16 21:38:17 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <etimes teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 00:43:15 -0400
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Hello Bruce.

No, I don't live anywhere near there. Thanks for the offer
though. But perhaps what is more
to the point, is that so far no tangible information has
been presented concerning your inventors claims. Other than
the phrase,

"First.. Natural Magnetism creates power by itself. (Not Electro)"

Sadly, I'm not trained as an auto mechanic, and so find the
above theory quite opaque. I can forward it to an auto mechanic
friend of mine, but SOMEHOW I have the feeling that he'd
be equally baffled. Perhaps due to our linear education?
By the way, just what IS a linear education?

I try to keep an open mind. But frankly the more information
I read from your contact, the less possible any of this
appears. Oh yes, and the part about selling some hyper advanced
technology to the Amish strikes me as truly bizarre.
I mean, you do realize that the Amish drive around in
horse drawn buggies, right? These people aren't what
one might call early adopters... I think the phrase
Luddite might be more appropriate. Also, your contact
seems to have gone to great lengths to ensure his
machines don't work. You may insert conclusion here, gentle reader.

K.

PS: Please post stuff about this to a seperate thread,
none of this has anything to do with the mercury arc
tests Fred, Frank, and I are contemplating.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Meland [mailto:etimes teleport.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 12:55 PM
To: knagel gis.net
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?


Hi Keith: Are you from the Cincinnati-Detroit area or know of someone that
can go with me to take some measurments of these outrageous claims? Toyota
will be flying me to Cincinnati for a launch and willl spend the weekend
going to Detroit to take some measurments and talk to one of a few wizzards
I have been refering to. Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, June 10, 2001 9:45 PM
Subject: RE: Mercury Arc Space Drive?


>Hi Fred.
>
>OK, I've done my share of experimenting with mercury
>ignitrons. Is this something like what you have in mind?
>I'll say, when you push a 1000 amps or so thru one
>they make quite a pop, but I haven't seen one take
>off yet. Any suggestions for testing here? I happen to
>have one with all the driver circuitry set up, so
>go ahead...
>
>K.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
>Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 5:47 AM
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Cc: jlsparber earthlink.net
>Subject: Re: Mercury Arc Space Drive?
>
>
>Just in case experiment for unsure skeptics:
>
>Use two ~1/4 inch diameter tungsten welding rods tightly inserted in a
>quartz or
>ceramic tube (~1.0 mm gap) with a small drop of Hg or Cs contacting them in
>the gap ,
>so that the drop vaporizes when the voltage (24 volts D.C.) is applied with
>the
>negative side up.
>
>If it levitates...  :-)
>
>Regards,   Frederick
>
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 17 12:08:54 2001
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Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:01:26 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel
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thomas malloy wrote:

>Sorry to be a wet blanket for this energy source Jed, but hog manure is 
>more valuable as a soil amendment than as energy. OTOH, you could spread 
>it on the ground and grow industrial hemp which you then burn for energy.

You can use it for both. First extract the methane, then use the leftovers 
for fertilizer.

In the U.S., industrial hemp production is widely prohibited because of 
anti-marijuana laws. That's a darn shame.

- Jed

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel
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Bruce Meland wrote:

>Hey Jed Parks; since when are you the authority in most energy issues and 
>debunking technology that you know nothing or very little about?

I have not "debunked" anything here lately. I merely reported my exchange 
with Jack Carey in detail, quoting him verbatim as closely as I can 
remember. His claims sound impossible to me, but they sound impossible to 
anyone with any knowledge of basic science. It is not "debunking" to point 
that out, or to point out that he did not give me any  quantitative data, 
experiment description, photographs, or anything else that a normal person 
would provide as proof of a claim. He has effectively debunked himself. 
Perhaps he will understand this and come through with some data. I would be 
happy to look at it.


>Yes you sound like Parks most of the time.

Parks is a hot dog and sausage company. You probably mean Robert Park, of 
the APS. He does not resemble a hot dog and I do not resemble him.


>  Listen to this; Bernie Faber an Oregon
>Dairyman is conducting a pilot plant operation in cooperation with Portland
>General Electric to produce electricity from dairy cow manure.

Yes, I am well aware of this and many similar projects.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 17 12:23:25 2001
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Amish not luddites
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>Oh yes, and the part about selling some hyper advanced
>technology to the Amish strikes me as truly bizarre.
>I mean, you do realize that the Amish drive around in
>horse drawn buggies, right? These people aren't what
>one might call early adopters...

No, they are not. They are 50 to 300 years behind the times in some ways. 
Some of them consider buttons too decorative for clothing.


>  I think the phrase
>Luddite might be more appropriate.

I disagree. I have not had many dealings with them, but a childhood friend 
of mine used to spend his summers working with them, and they live not far 
from my property in Pennsylvania. I do not think it is fair to call them 
luddites. I would not want to join the Amish, and I do not care for their 
attitudes toward education, but I have great respect for their views about 
technology. They adapt inventions which enhance their community values, 
such as off-grid electricity, indoor plumbing, modern medicine, 
refrigeration for diary farms and Cheerios breakfast cereal. They try out 
many new technologies, and sometimes reject them years later, or modify 
them in clever ways to avoid a negative impact on society (both theirs and 
ours). In the 1920s many of them used automobiles but later decided that in 
most case most people should not have them. They make reasonable, humane 
exceptions to their rules. They do not withdraw from the rest of society or 
refuse to participate. They are quite different from extremist fanatics on 
both ends of the spectrum.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 17 13:13:23 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, JCarey9622@aol.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Reply to Jed from Jack Carey
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Jack Carey effectively debunked himself here, with a long message relayed 
by Bruce Meland. As far as I can tell, the "technical" parts of the message 
make no sense whatever. To the best of my knowledge statements like 
"Natural Magnetism creates power by itself. (Not Electro)" are meaningless 
nonsense. I will not address this nonsense, but I will correct a few of his 
other peculiar notions:

 >Please bear with me as I go through this so it is possibly clear to
 >everyone. We have different technologies. Some create power/energy by
 >themselves. Some step up power from the grid.

Carey does not mean the devices "step up" power in the normal sense of 
changing voltage; he means they actually output more power (watts) than 
they input. Obviously any machine that does that is creating power/energy 
by itself, and can be used in a self-sustaining, stand-alone mode. The 
distinction he claims here has no meaning. I do not know whether Carey is a 
scam artist or not, but most scam artists make this same nonsensical 
distinction. This is a warning flag.


 > It is a
 >different World. You have nothing to compare it with. The Motor can be
 >restarted if you want to fund.

This contradicts Carey's earlier statements on the telephone to me. He said 
the device is perfectly intact, the same as it was when it was last used 
some time ago, either 10, 15 or 20 years ago, depending on which version of 
his story he feels like telling.


 >. I'm sorry we will not tell you or anyone else how it actually works
 >internally. We have made up something for the international patent so it
 >would be a nightmare to try and reproduce.

This patent would be rejected. A patent must include complete, up-to-date 
knowledge, and a "person skilled in the art" must be able to replicate the 
device from the patent. You are not allowed to deliberately obfuscate or 
hide knowledge. When you fill in a patent application, you must swear sign 
a Declaration under penalty of perjury that you are not hiding relevant 
information. If Carey et al. really do plan to commit a crime, they are so 
ignorant of the patent laws, they have told me about it and permitted 
Meland to broadcast their intentions to the world at large.


 > Plus only part of the Info. will
 >be in the patent.

The patent must be complete in all respects, or it will be ruled invalid 
and the information in it will go into the public domain.


 > Plus the unit will come apart in many sealed pieces if you
 >try to open it. Have fun trying to figure out how to reassemble Because it
 >will be designed not to work if opened..

You would never be allowed to sell this machine in North America, Europe or 
Japan for commercial or consumer use. Health and safety laws would forbid 
it. You must file a complete list of all components and an up-to-date 
blueprint of the machine and its operating characteristics with various 
government agencies and the UL.


 >Let me know if I have
 >missed anything in my effort to stop anyone from reproducing our
inventions.

You are missing all common sense, as well as a high school level knowledge 
patent law, government, regulations and insurance. If you present this as a 
"business plan" to an "investor" with an education above 7th grade, you 
will be instantly dismissed. No sane businessman would consider investing 
in this scheme, because it is illegal and unworkable.


 >. We do not care if you come or not. But you are welcome. Come next weekend
 >if you want to when Bruce Meland will be here to verify or disprove our
 >claims..

Based on the descriptions by Carey and Ken Rouen, it would be impossible 
for me or anyone else to determine whether the device is doing anything in 
the "demonstration" they have arranged. It would be a waste of time to view 
this demo. On the other hand, if the device works the way they claim, they 
could arrange a real demonstration in a few days at no expense.


 >you want to proceed after your convinced we are as advertised. No NDA is
 >necessary to see Demo's. We are very open. Because we have nothing to hide.

This contradicts the earlier statements that they will make the machine 
impossible to open, and they plan to commit perjury on their patent 
application.


 >Call Ken at Infinite ask him what he saw. We made the mistake of showing
him
 >to much.

I did ask Ken. I gather it was "to much" yet not enough.


  Maybe cold fusion will work someday. We can make it work but we
want
 >our stuff out there first.

Ah, this is really is "to much!" These people are better scientists than 
Fleischmann, Storms, Oriani or Mizuno.


 > Plus I would like to discuss the rest of the mail with you in person on
tape
 >so every detail is perfectly clear . . .

That would be an excellent idea. No need to discuss anything, just provide 
an ordinary, work-a-day description of an experiment, with a list of 
instruments, inputs, outputs, graphs and so on. If you yourself write it, I 
suggest you read a textbook first and try to learn the difference between 
amperage and horsepower. Please do not attempt to master string theory 
quantum mechanics.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 17 15:15:40 2001
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Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:09:47 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Reply to Jed from Jack Carey
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Carey does not mean the devices "step up" power in the normal sense of 
>changing voltage; he means they actually output more power (watts) than 
>they input. Obviously any machine that does that is creating power/energy 
>by itself, and can be used in a self-sustaining, stand-alone mode. The 
>distinction he claims here has no meaning. I do not know whether Carey is a 
>scam artist or not, but most scam artists make this same nonsensical 
>distinction. This is a warning flag.


This is sounding a lot like Bearden's MEG, isn't it? 

Perhaps Carey would get a little more respect from his target audience (the 
Dennis Lee crowd) if he opts for the always popular diversionary tactic of the 
meaningless mantra - how does "phase conjugation" grab you?

Regards,

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 17 17:11:41 2001
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Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:07:03 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated
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Bruce -

  > I hope that was a sarcastic remark.

Why? What's that supposed to mean? I was not being sarcastic.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 17 23:30:33 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: An interesting anomaly
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:29:25 +1000
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

Last night as I went to leave the bathroom, I stopped to turn the light
off on the way out.

I noticed, to my surprise that it was already turned off.

I then stopped and looked up at the light and saw that it was still
shining, albeit feebly. It also had travelling compression waves in the
plasma (it's an 18 watt neutral white fluorescent), which when reflected
from the far end of the tube resulted in standing waves (almost) at the
far end. When I switched it on at the switch, it lit up to full
brightness, then when switched off again returned to its strange
behaviour.
This particular tube is getting somewhat old, and had already developed
black spots at the ends. Furthermore, yesterday was wash day, and the
bathroom was full of damp air all day. I also took a shower last night,
adding further to the moisture in the air.

As I couldn't urn the "light" off, I went to bed. This morning when I
got up, the tube was still emitting a little light from the "front" end,
but that was all. I turned it on again, and it lit as normal, and when
turned off glowed dimly along the full length for a short time then went
out. I also listened at the switch for sparking, but couldn't hear
anything. I decided to see what would happen when the tube was turned in
the socket, breaking the connection. After setting a chair beneath the
tube for quick access, I turned the light on for a time, then turned it
off, and quickly climbed up and rotated it while it was still glowing. 
It went out immediately. I also attempted a test involving removing the
fuse from the fuse box, however when I returned, the light was out, and
I couldn't tell whether that was because of the fuse, or whether it had
simply "timed out" (the time out period was getting ever shorter, and
was already down to a less than 30 seconds).
Now it once again behaves as a normal light, going on when switched on,
and out when switch off.
I shall try again, next wash day :).

Hypothesis: 
When the air is saturated with moisture during an entire day, water
vapour leaks into the tube during the course of the day (the tube is old
and "leaky"). The arc in the tube dissociates the water vapour producing
some hydrogen, and also some hydrinos or LL's. When turned off, UV
generated by these atoms causes the tube to still emit some light.
Somehow this is also connected with the existing electrical system of
the lamp as well.
After the air in the room becomes dry again, the hydrogen in the tube is
eventually used up, and the phenomenon quits.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 17 23:50:33 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 06:49:25 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:29:25 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk
<rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:

>Hypothesis: 
>When the air is saturated with moisture during an entire day, water
>vapour leaks into the tube during the course of the day (the tube is old
>and "leaky"). The arc in the tube dissociates the water vapour producing
>some hydrogen, and also some hydrinos or LL's. 

Not very likely.  If anything at all gets into the fluorescent tube,
the gas would be able to leak out and you'd get no light.

What's more likely is that your switch is being affected by the
humidity, and not turning fully off.  There's probably some kind of
corrosion in the switch that the humidity affects and presents a path,
albeit a high resistance, for the power.  The lower voltage (it's
still AC and still going through the ballast) is what's keeping the
tube feebly glowing.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 17 23:59:51 2001
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Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:07:19 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
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At 4:29 PM 6/18/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Hypothesis:
>When the air is saturated with moisture during an entire day, water
>vapour leaks into the tube during the course of the day (the tube is old
>and "leaky"). The arc in the tube dissociates the water vapour producing
>some hydrogen, and also some hydrinos or LL's. When turned off, UV
>generated by these atoms causes the tube to still emit some light.
>Somehow this is also connected with the existing electrical system of
>the lamp as well.
>After the air in the room becomes dry again, the hydrogen in the tube is
>eventually used up, and the phenomenon quits.

I suggest checking the light fixture to see if there is a hot wire present
when the light switch is off.  This could happen due to the switch
erroneously being wired on the ground side of the circuit, or may be caused
some unusual wiring requirement, like multiple switches.  If you do find a
hot wire in the fixture witht the switch being off, then here is another
hypothesis:

When the wall or some part of the lamp fixture is heavily exposed to
moisture from the laundering it provides a moderate resistance electrical
path to ground through the wet material, bypassing the switch.  Once the
filaments are heated, even the small current through the tube and the wet
material may be enough to keep the filaments hot enough to produce a long
term glow.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 00:12:00 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
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At 9:49 PM 6/17/1, Dean T. Miller wrote:

>What's more likely is that your switch is being affected by the
>humidity, and not turning fully off.  There's probably some kind of
>corrosion in the switch that the humidity affects and presents a path,
>albeit a high resistance, for the power.  The lower voltage (it's
>still AC and still going through the ballast) is what's keeping the
>tube feebly glowing.

A very good possibility, more likely I would guess than my suggestion of a
possible short to ground.  This is easily checked by measuring the output
voltage of the switch (relative to ground) when the switch is damp.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 00:35:07 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: An interesting anomaly
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:25:49 +1000
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

Last night as I went to leave the bathroom, I stopped to turn the light
off on the way out.

I noticed, to my surprise that it was already turned off.

I then stopped and looked up at the light and saw that it was still
shining, albeit feebly. It also had travelling compression waves in the
plasma (it's an 18 watt neutral white fluorescent), which when reflected
from the far end of the tube resulted in standing waves (almost) at the
far end. When I switched it on at the switch, it lit up to full
brightness, then when switched off again returned to its strange
behaviour.
This particular tube is getting somewhat old, and had already developed
black spots at the ends. Furthermore, yesterday was wash day, and the
bathroom was full of damp air all day. I also took a shower last night,
adding further to the moisture in the air.

As I couldn't urn the "light" off, I went to bed. This morning when I
got up, the tube was still emitting a little light from the "front" end,
but that was all. I turned it on again, and it lit as normal, and when
turned off glowed dimly along the full length for a short time then went
out. I also listened at the switch for sparking, but couldn't hear
anything. I decided to see what would happen when the tube was turned in
the socket, breaking the connection. After setting a chair beneath the
tube for quick access, I turned the light on for a time, then turned it
off, and quickly climbed up and rotated it while it was still glowing. 
It went out immediately. I also attempted a test involving removing the
fuse from the fuse box, however when I returned, the light was out, and
I couldn't tell whether that was because of the fuse, or whether it had
simply "timed out" (the time out period was getting ever shorter, and
was already down to a less than 30 seconds).
Now it once again behaves as a normal light, going on when switched on,
and out when switch off.
I shall try again, next wash day :).

Hypothesis: 
When the air is saturated with moisture during an entire day, water
vapour leaks into the tube during the course of the day (the tube is old
and "leaky"). The arc in the tube dissociates the water vapour producing
some hydrogen, and also some hydrinos or LL's. When turned off, UV
generated by these atoms causes the tube to still emit some light.
Somehow this is also connected with the existing electrical system of
the lamp as well.
After the air in the room becomes dry again, the hydrogen in the tube is
eventually used up, and the phenomenon quits.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 01:04:23 2001
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: time
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I'm in a mood to wax poetic on the subject of time.

Those of you who noticed my posting about David Anderson, principal 
researcher of www.time-reversal.com will perhaps have reflected on 
his optimistic assessment regarding the potential of the research he 
is conducting.

There is no question that he is able to accelerate the passage of 
time, based on a clock placed in the field, which is compared to a 
similar clock left outside the field. That in no way means that he 
will be able to reverse time. In fact, the field becomes unstable 
when he attempts to slow down the progression of time.

This reminds me of a difference of opinion between Frank Meyer and 
Otto Schmitt. Otto believed that it was possible to reverse time. 
Frank OTOH, said that "time is not a dimension, it is a progression, 
and cannot be reversed."

I just wish that I could return to 1970, I'd look my then self up and 
give him a swift kick in the ass.  Then I'd go looking for Otto.

BTW, I was going to post this to Keith Nagel privately, but I decided 
to post it for you all. It is prophesied  that the sky will roll up 
like a scroll, taking all the stars with it. I had  often wondered 
what kind of a weird Universe it would have to be inorder for that 
prophecy to come true. One day Frank and I were discussing the nature 
of the Universe. He was going on about light standing still and the 
Universe expanding through it. I replied, "so what you're telling me 
is that the Universe is expanding like the skin of a balloon, at the 
speed of light." Frank replied that this was the case. Subsequently 
it occurred to me, that was my answer. Hoyt, are you out there?



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 01:10:03 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:09:03 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:19:29
-0900:

>At 9:49 PM 6/17/1, Dean T. Miller wrote:
>
>>What's more likely is that your switch is being affected by the
>>humidity, and not turning fully off.  There's probably some kind of
>>corrosion in the switch that the humidity affects and presents a path,
>>albeit a high resistance, for the power.  The lower voltage (it's
>>still AC and still going through the ballast) is what's keeping the
>>tube feebly glowing.
>
>A very good possibility, more likely I would guess than my suggestion of a
>possible short to ground.  This is easily checked by measuring the output
>voltage of the switch (relative to ground) when the switch is damp.

Neither of these suggestions explain the travelling waves (bands of
light and shade) in the tube (though these did disappear more or less
after the tube had been removed from its holder and put back in again).
The wavelength of the bands was about 5-8 cm (hard to say exactly
because they were moving).

Nevertheless these are indeed likely explanations. I'll see if I can
measure a voltage between earth and the lamp, with the switch turned
off.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 01:17:55 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:16:52 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Mon, 18 Jun 2001 03:03:03 -0500:
[snip]
>There is no question that he is able to accelerate the passage of 
>time, based on a clock placed in the field, which is compared to a 
>similar clock left outside the field. That in no way means that he 
>will be able to reverse time. In fact, the field becomes unstable 
>when he attempts to slow down the progression of time.

I've looked at quite a few of the things posted on the site, but still
haven't come across this. Could you give the exact URL?
[snip]
>to post it for you all. It is prophesied  that the sky will roll up 
>like a scroll, taking all the stars with it. I had  often wondered 

Ask yourself what the sky would look like as the earth entered the event
horizon of a black hole.

>what kind of a weird Universe it would have to be inorder for that 
>prophecy to come true. One day Frank and I were discussing the nature 
>of the Universe. He was going on about light standing still and the 
>Universe expanding through it. I replied, "so what you're telling me 
>is that the Universe is expanding like the skin of a balloon, at the 
>speed of light." Frank replied that this was the case. Subsequently 
>it occurred to me, that was my answer. Hoyt, are you out there?
[snip]
Wouldn't this result in all light travelling in the same direction?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 06:17:35 2001
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
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At 06:49 AM 6/18/01 +0000, you wrote:
>On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:29:25 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk
><rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> >Hypothesis:
> >When the air is saturated with moisture during an entire day, water
> >vapour leaks into the tube during the course of the day (the tube is old
> >and "leaky"). The arc in the tube dissociates the water vapour producing
> >some hydrogen, and also some hydrinos or LL's.
>
>Not very likely.  If anything at all gets into the fluorescent tube,
>the gas would be able to leak out and you'd get no light.

Interesting except that the gas in the tube is at about 1/10 atmosphere 
pressure.  Leaky tubs gain gas rather then loose it.  The increase of gas 
raises the voltage needed to arc causing the tube to eventually 
fail..   Moisture is unlikely to be able to enter or exit due to the size 
of the molicule.

Humidity effects these tubes because it combines with dust and forms a 
conductive film around the tube.


Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 06:27:37 2001
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Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
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Folks...   There is no anomaly about afterglow with florescent tubes.  The 
coating is phosphorous.  There is also no anomaly about power off glow 
which is caused by your wiring.  When the switch is installed in the 
neutral line rather then the hot a tube can glow depending upon the amount 
of ground coupling.   Which will very with humidity.

At 06:09 PM 6/18/01 +1000, you wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:19:29
>-0900:
>
> >At 9:49 PM 6/17/1, Dean T. Miller wrote:
> >
> >>What's more likely is that your switch is being affected by the
> >>humidity, and not turning fully off.  There's probably some kind of
> >>corrosion in the switch that the humidity affects and presents a path,
> >>albeit a high resistance, for the power.  The lower voltage (it's
> >>still AC and still going through the ballast) is what's keeping the
> >>tube feebly glowing.
> >
> >A very good possibility, more likely I would guess than my suggestion of a
> >possible short to ground.  This is easily checked by measuring the output
> >voltage of the switch (relative to ground) when the switch is damp.
>
>Neither of these suggestions explain the travelling waves (bands of
>light and shade) in the tube (though these did disappear more or less
>after the tube had been removed from its holder and put back in again).
>The wavelength of the bands was about 5-8 cm (hard to say exactly
>because they were moving).
>
>Nevertheless these are indeed likely explanations. I'll see if I can
>measure a voltage between earth and the lamp, with the switch turned
>off.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 07:03:49 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
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Subject: Re: Amish not luddites
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:07:55 -0700
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On Sunday 17 June 2001 12:22, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Keith Nagel wrote:
> 
> >Oh yes, and the part about selling some hyper advanced
> >technology to the Amish strikes me as truly bizarre.
> >I mean, you do realize that the Amish drive around in
> >horse drawn buggies, right? These people aren't what
> >one might call early adopters...
> 
> No, they are not. They are 50 to 300 years behind the times in some ways. 
> Some of them consider buttons too decorative for clothing.
> 
> 
> >  I think the phrase
> >Luddite might be more appropriate.
> 
> I disagree. I have not had many dealings with them, but a childhood friend 
> of mine used to spend his summers working with them, and they live not far 
> from my property in Pennsylvania. I do not think it is fair to call them 
> luddites. I would not want to join the Amish, and I do not care for their 
> attitudes toward education, but I have great respect for their views about 
> technology. They adapt inventions which enhance their community values, 
> such as off-grid electricity, indoor plumbing, modern medicine, 
> refrigeration for diary farms and Cheerios breakfast cereal. They try out 
> many new technologies, and sometimes reject them years later, or modify 
> them in clever ways to avoid a negative impact on society (both theirs and 
> ours). In the 1920s many of them used automobiles but later decided that in 
> most case most people should not have them. They make reasonable, humane 
> exceptions to their rules. They do not withdraw from the rest of society or 
> refuse to participate. They are quite different from extremist fanatics on 
> both ends of the spectrum.
> 
> - Jed

We live near Middlebury, Indiana.  If there is an Amish Capitol of the
world, this place is IT!  The ones that we have seen here are the
reverse of most of us who display and use technology that we do
not understand and are unable to really maintain in the absence
of 'professionals'.  We take our cars to dealers (shade trees and hot
rodders excepted).  We throw away our appliances instead of getting
them fixed (dealers here refuse to service them, clearing all service
calls through 'sales departments' before giving you false promises
and leaving a bill for 30 percent of the profit on a new machine as
a consolation prize to them for having failed to convert a service
call to a new sale).  Fifty percent of all groceries are literally trash,
with packaging being and waste or unusable product predominating
over real content:  e.g. 'fish sticks, frozen'  come in a large box
containing up to 50 percent of the volume of the total product package;
70 percent of the rest is the bread batter that is cheap and therefor
predominates;  only 15 percent of the total packaging is really what
you wanted--the fish, short fibers that could have been swept off
the floor as leftovers from packaging a higher quality product for
higher paying 'customers'.  We are a 'consumer' society that
expects everything to be done for us, but really end up having
everything done TO us.
	The Amish, on the other hand, are intimately familiar
with all the technology that they hide and do not display openly,
even that which they have their Bishop's permission to use.  They
use cold rolled steel axles with tapered roller bearings in those
'primitive buggies'.  The same also have vinyl coverings in the 
tops and modern low voltage wiring for the lights.  Some even
have disk brakes.  They use technologies in their kitchens, with
absorption cycle refrigeration and candy and baking thermometers,
and gasoline and/or propane powered equipment of many kinds.
Their children can have automobiles before getting married and
'joining' the flock.  Many of these are drop-dead hot rods.  No
drivers are faster than an Amish kid.  Many race drivers come
from this part of the country.  A good 70 percent of the welders
in this part of the country are of Amish background, as are
many of the mechanics.  Amish doctors are among the best
in the world.  Bottom line.  DO NOT let these gentle and unassuming
folk fool you!  They are a LOT smarter than they look, and
they are hard working.  Most of the liquid cash assets in any
county with Amish presence is in their hands, not in banks.

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 07:30:38 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 07:28:09 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Greetings,

>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>Hypothesis:
>>When the air is saturated with moisture during an entire day, water
>>vapour leaks into the tube during the course of the day (the tube is old
>>and "leaky"). The arc in the tube dissociates the water vapour producing
>>some hydrogen, and also some hydrinos or LL's. When turned off, UV
>>generated by these atoms causes the tube to still emit some light.
>>Somehow this is also connected with the existing electrical system of
>>the lamp as well.

This is interesting, and I have often wondered if any of the surprising efficiency 
of a fluorescent tube is due to a weak hydrino effect - but remember, the initial 
fill of many new tubes contains 5% or so hydrogen (along with argon and some 
Hg vapor), and since the phenomenon you witness is occurring with an older 
tube, then the answer is probably more mundane. 

Also there is small amount of H2 in the air naturally, and one doesn't need to 
resort to the water vapor hypothesis to explain how some of it (or LLs) would 
accumulate inside a sealed tube.

Also, when one optimizes the frequency in a fluorescent, it is possible to get 
significant light with one watt or less. I have personally done this experiment 
many times. The best results are obtained at the ion-acoustic frequency range 
of the tube fill, usually in the ~1-3 khz. If you can hear it when glowing - this 
may be the case in your tube.

The ultimate problem, then, as mentioned by  Horace Heffner is likely a switch 
that when moistened will pass a watt or so of power, particularly at higher 
sparking frequencies. HH wrote:

>When the wall or some part of the lamp fixture is heavily exposed to
>moisture from the laundering it provides a moderate resistance electrical
>path to ground through the wet material, bypassing the switch.  Once the
>filaments are heated, even the small current through the tube and the wet
>material may be enough to keep the filaments hot enough to produce a long
>term glow.

Well, fluorescents are all cold cathode, but your wet switch will probably pass 
a watt or two in the off position, particularly if it has contacts that have been 
degraded with an absorbent (dust or laundry lint).

Regards,

Jones Beene


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 07:53:20 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Reply to Jed from Jack Carey
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Jones Beene wrote:

> >Carey does not mean the devices "step up" power in the normal sense of
> >changing voltage; he means they actually output more power (watts) than
> >they input. Obviously any machine that does that is creating power/energy
> >by itself, and can be used in a self-sustaining, stand-alone mode.

>. . . most scam artists make this same nonsensical
> >distinction. This is a warning flag.
>
>
>This is sounding a lot like Bearden's MEG, isn't it?

Yes. But I know nothing about Bearden personally, and I would not want to 
call him a scam artist. He is confused, and angry, and his statements about 
electricity are wrong, but I have no idea whether he has solicited funds 
for the machines. He seems to sincerely believe his own statements, as does 
Jack Carey. I have no idea what either of them is saying; this talk of 
"stepping up" amps into horsepower is nonsense as far as I know. But if 
these people ever present ordinary, credible evidence with meaningful units 
of measurement, I will be happy to examine it. If the claims are true, they 
could arrange a real test in a few weeks for very little money. I stress 
the need for *ordinary* evidence, with standard meters and tools. 
Extraordinary claims call for the most ordinary ho-hum proof you can 
devise. What Ken Rauen observed in Carey's garage was a mish-mash of 
different instrument types, none of which was designed to measure energy. 
He senses there might be something anomalous, but it is impossible to 
judge. The demo depends upon subjective events such as overhead lights 
growing dimmer and brighter. That happens at my house all the time, without 
rhyme or rhythm. I purchased UPS computer power supplies after losing 1 
computer and 3 modems.


>Perhaps Carey would get a little more respect from his target audience 
>(the Dennis Lee crowd) if he opts for the always popular diversionary 
>tactic of the  meaningless mantra - how does "phase conjugation" grab you?

Great! It has a linguistic ring, and an antique, Victorian touch.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 07:57:37 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 06:41:15 -0700
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Have you tole this to the person that wrote this slam?
-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, June 03, 2001 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy


>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
>>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>>Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>; <knagel@gis.net>; <tom@rhfweb.com>
>>Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 12:47 PM
>>Subject: Re: Barn roof free energy
>>
>>Bruce,
>>
>>I think you would've been better off to have spent that $37.00 plus S & H
on a
>>"Shrink".  :-)
>>
>>Regards,   Frederick
>
>I agree, I linked to Dr. Lindermann's site from Jerry Decker's site.
>I asked him some pointed questions. I have yet to receive a reply.
>Bottom line, anybody can write a book, but it takes a break through
>to heat water.
>
>>
>>
>>>  I think you serious tinkerers would save a lot of time and money if you
>>>  purchased the recent published book "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold
>>  > Electricity by Dr. Peter Lindemann for about $37, includes shipping
and
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 08:23:39 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 07:06:50 -0700
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 Still Sounds similar to Park's tactics
-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; vortex-l@eskimo.com
<vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, June 17, 2001 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Other Hyrogen fuel


>Bruce Meland wrote:
>
>>Hey Jed Parks; since when are you the authority in most energy issues and
>>debunking technology that you know nothing or very little about?
>
>I have not "debunked" anything here lately. I merely reported my exchange
>with Jack Carey in detail, quoting him verbatim as closely as I can
>remember. His claims sound impossible to me, but they sound impossible to
>anyone with any knowledge of basic science. It is not "debunking" to point
>that out, or to point out that he did not give me any  quantitative data,
>experiment description, photographs, or anything else that a normal person
>would provide as proof of a claim. He has effectively debunked himself.
>Perhaps he will understand this and come through with some data. I would be
>happy to look at it.
>
>
>>Yes you sound like Parks most of the time.
>
>Parks is a hot dog and sausage company. You probably mean Robert Park, of
>the APS. He does not resemble a hot dog and I do not resemble him.
>
>
>>  Listen to this; Bernie Faber an Oregon
>>Dairyman is conducting a pilot plant operation in cooperation with
Portland
>>General Electric to produce electricity from dairy cow manure.
>
>Yes, I am well aware of this and many similar projects.
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 09:04:42 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <pgb padrak.com>
Subject: Fw: US DOE Asks for Public Comments--June 29 Deadline
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 07:46:52 -0700
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-----Original Message-----
From: Integrity Research Institute, Thomas Valone <iri erols.com>
To: iri erols.com <iri@erols.com>
Date: Sunday, June 17, 2001 8:02 PM
Subject: US DOE Asks for Public Comments--June 29 Deadline


<<<<<<<<<<<<< HIGH PRIORITY RE: ENERGY >>>>>>>>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
=20
This is one chance for anyone and everyone to tell the US D.O.E. what =
you really think! Announced belatedly on June 7th, the "townhall" =
meetings THIS MONTH in various cities across the nation offer ordinary =
citizens five (5) full minutes to tell Energy Secretary Abraham what =
should be done about the energy problem. Look for the nearest city to =
you if you want to speak in person (I did 3 years ago). First, review =
the National Energy Policy online to see if you think they left =
something out :-) www.energy.gov Then, if as many people as possible =
contribute their educated thoughts about the energy crisis directly to =
the DOE, the comments will go on record in a big way.

In DC, the in-person opportunity will occur at the Washington Hilton, =
1919 Connecticut Ave NW, on June 26th from 10 AM to 9 PM.=20

You may mail in your commentary instead, but it must reach the DOE by 5 =
PM on June 29, 2001. =20

YOU MAY ALSO EMAIL YOUR COMMENTS TO: EERENEP.comments ee.doe.gov =20

Please try to participate and do so before the deadline. Let your =
colleagues and friends know about this rare opportunity.
The combined voice of alternative energy can be heard. =20
(See below for more details.)   --TV

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------





Public Meetings on Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Programs =
Scheduled
=20
The Department of Energy (DOE) today announced the locations and details =
of seven public meetings that will be held across the country throughout =
the month of June. The first-of-its-kind public outreach effort will =
allow the public, elected officials and energy experts to provide the =
department with information regarding the current funding and historic =
performance of its Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy =
programs. These meetings are one part of a comprehensive review of the =
programs called for in President Bush=92s National Energy Policy =
released last month.=20
=93Energy efficiency and the development of renewable energy resources =
are critical elements of the President=92s National Energy Policy,=94 =
said Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham. =93The public=92s input at =
these meetings will help us identify opportunities for future research =
and investment while assessing our past effectiveness in these areas.=94 =


The Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy funds research, =
development, demonstration and deployment of affordable, advanced energy =
technologies and practices in five energy sectors -- buildings, =
industry, transportation, power generation and delivery, and federal =
government facilities.=20

Comments offered at these meetings should address the objectives of the =
current energy efficiency and renewable energy research, development, =
demonstration and deployment programs; suggested potential objectives =
for future programs; implementation of current and future programs; and =
whether these federal programs are achieving intended objectives.=20

Each meeting will be held from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. From 9:00 a.m. to =
10:00 a.m. the department will receive comments from public officials =
only. Details on the locations and dates of the meetings follows:=20

June 12 Atlanta, Georgia - Main Auditorium (Lower Level), Richard B. =
Russell Federal Building and Courthouse, 75 Spring Street SW, Atlanta, =
Ga.=20
             =20
            June 12 Chicago, Illinois - James Benton Parson Memorial =
Court Room Dirksen Federal Building, Room 2525, 219 South Dearborn =
Street, Chicago, Ill.=20
             =20
            June 19 Boston, Massachusetts - John A. Volpe National =
Transportation Systems Center, 55 Broadway, Kendall Square, Cambridge, =
Mass.=20
             =20
            June 19 Seattle, Washington - Bell Harbor International =
Conference Center International Promenade Room, Pier 66, 2211 Alaskan =
Way, Seattle, Wash.=20
             =20
            June 21 Denver, Colorado - Adam's Mark Hotel Denver, 1550 =
Court Place Denver, Colo.=20
             =20
            June 21 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania - Location: Sheraton =
Rittenhouse Square Hotel, 18th and Locust Streets (255 South 18th =
Street), Philadelphia, PA 19103=20
             =20
            June 26 Washington, D. C. - Washington Hilton and Towers, =
1919 Connecticut Avenue, Washington, D. C.=20
   =20

To accommodate as many individuals as possible speakers will be limited =
to five minutes. Written comments will also be accepted but must be =
submitted to the department by 5:00 p.m. EDT, June 29, 2001. Written =
comments should be no more than four single spaced pages, using 12 pitch =
font and 1 inch margins. All written comments will be included in the =
proceedings of the seven public meetings. Comments may be sent to: Ms. =
Bonny Overton, U. S. Department of Energy, Office of Energy Efficiency =
and Renewable Energy, EE 3.1, 1000 Independence Avenue, S. W., =
Washington, DC 20585, or via electronic mail to =
EERENEP.comments ee.doe.gov=20

Copies of the National Energy Policy can be found on the web at =
www.energy.gov=20

For further information about EERE programs, please visit =
www.EREN.doe.gov=20

Media Contact:  Jill Schroeder 202/586-4940, Chris Kielich 202/586-5806=20

Release No. R-01-092=20


Release Date: June 07, 2001=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------


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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN">
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<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>Integrity Research Institute, Thomas Valone &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:iri erols.com">iri@erols.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>To: </B><A=20
href=3D"mailto:iri erols.com">iri@erols.com</A> &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:iri erols.com">iri@erols.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date: =
</B>Sunday, June=20
17, 2001 8:02 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>US DOE Asks for Public =
Comments--June 29=20
Deadline<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Century Schoolbook" size=3D2>
<DIV =
align=3Dcenter><STRONG>&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&l=
t;=20
HIGH PRIORITY RE: ENERGY&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
<HR>
 </STRONG></DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify><STRONG>This is&nbsp;one chance for anyone and =
everyone to=20
tell the US D.O.E. what you really think!</STRONG> =
Announced&nbsp;belatedly on=20
June 7th,&nbsp;the &quot;townhall&quot; meetings&nbsp;THIS MONTH in =
various=20
cities across the nation offer ordinary citizens&nbsp;five (5) full =
minutes=20
to&nbsp;tell Energy Secretary Abraham what should be done about the =
energy=20
problem.&nbsp;Look for the nearest city to you if you want to speak in =
person (I=20
did 3 years ago). First, review the National Energy Policy online to see =
if you=20
think they left something out :-) <A=20
href=3D"http://www.energy.gov">www.energy.gov</A>&nbsp;Then, if as many =
people as=20
possible contribute their educated thoughts about the energy crisis =
directly to=20
the DOE, the comments will go on record in a big way.</DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify>In DC, the <STRONG>in-person</STRONG> opportunity =
will occur=20
at the Washington Hilton, 1919 Connecticut Ave NW, on June 26th from 10 =
AM to 9=20
PM.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify>You may <STRONG>mail</STRONG> in your=20
commentary&nbsp;instead, but it must reach the DOE by <U>5 PM on June =
29,=20
2001.</U>&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify>YOU MAY ALSO <STRONG>EMAIL</STRONG> YOUR COMMENTS =
TO: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:EERENEP.comments ee.doe.gov">EERENEP.comments@ee.doe.gov</=
A>&nbsp;=20
</DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify><U>Please try to participate and do so&nbsp;before =
the=20
deadline</U>. Let your colleagues and friends know about this rare=20
opportunity.</DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify>The combined voice of alternative energy&nbsp;can =
be=20
heard.&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify>(See below for more details.)&nbsp;&nbsp; =
--TV</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft>
<HR>
</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
<CENTER><IMG border=3D0 height=3D141=20
src=3D"cid:00fe01c0f805$82cd6e40$c5181ad8 oemcomputer" =
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Copy from here to print =
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D-1>
<CENTER>
<H4>Public Meetings on Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Programs=20
Scheduled</H4>
<H5><I></I>&nbsp;</H5></CENTER>
<DIV align=3Dleft>The Department of Energy (DOE) today announced the =
locations and=20
details of seven public meetings that will be held across the country =
throughout=20
the month of June. The first-of-its-kind public outreach effort will =
allow the=20
public, elected officials and energy experts to provide the department =
with=20
information regarding the current funding and historic performance of =
its Office=20
of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy programs. These meetings are =
one part=20
of a comprehensive review of the programs called for in President =
Bush&rsquo;s=20
National Energy Policy released last month.=20
<P>&ldquo;Energy efficiency and the development of renewable energy =
resources=20
are critical elements of the President&rsquo;s National Energy =
Policy,&rdquo;=20
said Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham. &ldquo;The public&rsquo;s =
input at=20
these meetings will help us identify opportunities for future research =
and=20
investment while assessing our past effectiveness in these areas.&rdquo; =

<P>The Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy funds research,=20
development, demonstration and deployment of affordable, advanced energy =

technologies and practices in five energy sectors -- buildings, =
industry,=20
transportation, power generation and delivery, and federal government=20
facilities.=20
<P>Comments offered at these meetings should address the objectives of =
the=20
current energy efficiency and renewable energy research, development,=20
demonstration and deployment programs; suggested potential objectives =
for future=20
programs; implementation of current and future programs; and whether =
these=20
federal programs are achieving intended objectives.=20
<P>Each meeting will be held from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. From 9:00 a.m. =
to 10:00=20
a.m. the department will receive comments from public officials only. =
Details on=20
the locations and dates of the meetings follows:=20
<P>
<TABLE>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><FONT size=3D2>June 12</FONT></TD>
        <TD><FONT size=3D2>Atlanta, Georgia - Main Auditorium (Lower =
Level),=20
            Richard B. Russell Federal Building and Courthouse, 75 =
Spring Street=20
            SW, Atlanta, Ga.</FONT></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><FONT size=3D2>June 12</FONT></TD>
        <TD><FONT size=3D2>Chicago, Illinois - James Benton Parson =
Memorial=20
            Court Room Dirksen Federal Building, Room 2525, 219 South =
Dearborn=20
            Street, Chicago, Ill.</FONT></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><FONT size=3D2>June 19</FONT></TD>
        <TD><FONT size=3D2>Boston, Massachusetts - John A. Volpe =
National=20
            Transportation Systems Center, 55 Broadway, Kendall Square,=20
            Cambridge, Mass.</FONT></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><FONT size=3D2>June 19</FONT></TD>
        <TD><FONT size=3D2>Seattle, Washington - Bell Harbor =
International=20
            Conference Center International Promenade Room, Pier 66, =
2211=20
            Alaskan Way, Seattle, Wash.</FONT></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><FONT size=3D2>June 21</FONT></TD>
        <TD><FONT size=3D2>Denver, Colorado - Adam's Mark Hotel Denver, =
1550=20
            Court Place Denver, Colo.</FONT></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><FONT size=3D2>June 21</FONT></TD>
        <TD><FONT size=3D2>Philadelphia, Pennsylvania - Location: =
Sheraton=20
            Rittenhouse Square Hotel, 18th and Locust Streets (255 South =
18th=20
            Street), Philadelphia, PA 19103</FONT></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></TD></TR>
    <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop><FONT size=3D2>June 26</FONT></TD>
        <TD><FONT size=3D2>Washington, D. C. - Washington Hilton and =
Towers,=20
            1919 Connecticut Avenue, Washington, D. =
C.</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P>To accommodate as many individuals as possible speakers will be =
limited to=20
five minutes. <STRONG>Written comments will also be accepted but must be =

submitted to the department by 5:00 p.m. EDT, June 29, 2001. =
</STRONG>Written=20
comments should be no more than four single spaced pages, using 12 pitch =
font=20
and 1 inch margins. All written comments will be included in the =
proceedings of=20
the seven public meetings. Comments may be sent to: Ms. Bonny Overton, =
U. S.=20
Department of Energy, Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, =
EE 3.1,=20
1000 Independence Avenue, S. W., Washington, DC 20585, <STRONG>or via =
electronic=20
mail</STRONG> to <A=20
href=3D"mailto:EERENEP.comments ee.doe.gov">EERENEP.comments@ee.doe.gov</=
A>=20
<P>Copies of the National Energy Policy can be found on the web at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.energy.gov/">www.energy.gov</A>=20
<P>For further information about EERE programs, please visit <A=20
href=3D"http://www.eren.doe.gov/">www.EREN.doe.gov</A>=20
<P><B>Media Contact:&nbsp;&nbsp;</B>Jill Schroeder 202/586-4940, Chris =
Kielich=20
202/586-5806=20
<P>Release No. R-01-092 </P></DIV></FONT><!-- =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D To here for print friendly =
page =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --><FONT=20
face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D-1><BR>Release =
Date: June 07,=20
2001</FONT><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"> =
</FONT></FONT></FONT>
<P>&nbsp;</P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Century Schoolbook" size=3D2>
<HR>
</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C0F7CA.D992B9A0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 09:12:10 2001
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA22954;
	Mon, 18 Jun 2001 09:11:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 09:11:03 -0700
Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010618110752.0297c1a8 pop.mindspring.com>
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 12:10:50 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Patent filing ritual / consumer safety law example
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010617160954.0293e0f8 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <008c01c0f690$bf97e420$69181ad8 oemcomputer>
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I wrote:

"You are not allowed to deliberately obfuscate or hide knowledge. When you 
fill in a patent application, you must swear sign a Declaration under 
penalty of perjury that you are not hiding relevant information."

I mean you raise your right hand and swear, and then you sign a 
Declaration. I once saw this colorful ritual. "Penalty of perjury" means 
that lying in the application is equivalent to lying while giving testimony 
during a trial. I doubt anyone is ever prosecuted for this; it is like 
lying about you sex life in a deposition -- only three people has been 
prosecuted for that in the last 100 years, and two of them were serious 
cases of assault involving a doctor and a minister. But if the patent 
becomes valuable, a commercial rival is bound to find out you lied. The 
judges will rule against you, and you will lose patent protection.


> > Plus the unit will come apart in many sealed pieces if you
> >try to open it. Have fun trying to figure out how to reassemble Because it
> >will be designed not to work if opened..
>
>You would never be allowed to sell this machine in North America, Europe 
>or Japan for commercial or consumer use. Health and safety laws would 
>forbid it.

I mean you cannot sell heavy equipment which is not safety certified and 
which cannot be safely opened and maintained. The manual has to show how to 
take apart and repair the machine without risk. The owner has a right to 
open, inspect and repair his own property, although the manufacturer may 
warn that only a licensed repairman should work on the machine. Read the 
instructions for a water heater, furnace or automobile engine for examples. 
Some electronic equipment has a seal and a label: "No user maintainable 
parts. Warrantee void if this seal broken." Such statements are of dubious 
legality. I have not seen that kind of seal in many years, and I doubt it 
would hold up in court. Carey's notion that you would be allowed to sell 
heavy machinery which self-destructs when it is opened up is a childish 
fantasy. Many crackpot inventors have this idea.

Some devices such as computer chips, electronic watches and nicad batteries 
are factory sealed and will self-destruct when opened. But this cannot be 
helped. It is not deliberately engineered. These are small machines, and 
the engineering details for all of them are in the public domain -- by law 
-- and made available to any consumer or poison control organization. See:

http://hazard.com/msds/h/q259/q189.html

EVEREADY BATTERY -- ENERGIZER - BATTERY, NONRECHARGEABLE
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET NSN: 6135013391232
Manufacturer's CAGE: 83740
Part No. Indicator: A Part Number/Trade Name: ENERGIZER

Item Name: BATTERY, NONRECHARGEABLE
Company's Name: EVEREADY BATTERY CO INC
Company's Street: CHECKERBOARD SQ
Company's City: ST LOUIS Company's State: MO Company's Country: US 
Company's Zip Code: 63164
Company's Emerg Ph #: 216-835-7368
Distributor/Vendor # 1: QUADTECH INC (800-253-1230)
Distributor/Vendor # 1 Cage: 0PK96
Record No. For Safety Entry: 001
Tot Safety Entries This Stk#: 002 Status: SE Date
MSDS Prepared: 24SEP92 Safety Data Review
Date: 31OCT92
Supply Item Manager: CX MSDS Serial Number: BPFNC Hazard Characteristic 
Code: N1 Unit Of Issue: EA

Ingredients/Identity Information

Proprietary: NO
Ingredient: MANGANESE DIOXIDE
Ingredient Sequence Number: 01 Percent: 0 - 15 NIOSH (RTECS)
Number: OP0350000 CAS Number: 1313-13-9
OSHA PEL: 5 MG MN/M3
CEILING ACGIH TLV: 5 MG MN/M3
Other Recommended Limit: NONE RECOMMENDED . . .

If a toddler or a dog breaks opens up a nicad and swallows the 
contents,  someone at the emergency 800 number will know what to do. Before 
Carey's machine is sold, similar information about it must be made 
available. Any sane group of people with children will insist on this, 
especially the Amish. Their elected authorities are careful to review the 
environmental, health and social impact of machines before allowing members 
to use them. In that respect, they were 200 years ahead of society. In 
modern society, you are not allowed to keep secrets about consumer products.

Hard line capitalists and conservatives may object to these consumer 
protection laws as being too obtrusive, and revealing too many corporate 
secrets. The secrets would be revealed anyway with reverse engineering. The 
number of children poisoned in the last 30 years has fallen by 1 or 2 
orders of magnitude depending on the cause. I do not see why anyone would 
object to laws that save hundreds of lives every year at no cost to society.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 09:39:21 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>, etimes@teleport.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel
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I explained that I have not "debunked" anything here. I merely reported my 
exchange with Jack Carey in detail, quoting him verbatim as closely as I 
can remember. Bruce Meland responded:

>  Still Sounds similar to Park's tactics

No, Bruce, it does not. Please stop making blanket statements without 
evidence. Here is a partial list of the differences between Robert Park and me:

1. I listed Jack Carey's e-mail address (in the message header). If he had 
not supplied his telephone number here already, I would have done so. Park 
never gives his readers a way to contact the people he critiques.

2. I quoted Carey exactly and in detail, both what he wrote here, and what 
he said on the telephone. I give the reader every opportunity to see what 
the author himself claims. Park never quotes anyone directly. He 
paraphrases, deliberately distorts and ridicules the author.

3. Carey has not published anything as far as I know, but if he had you can 
be sure I would list the author, title and publication. I ALWAYS provide 
footnotes. Park never does.

4. I cross-check every fact, and make no assertion not backed up in the 
textbooks. Park makes up facts as he goes along, and he broadcasts ignorant 
nonsense such as the claim that you can measure magnetic field strength by 
putting sheets of paper between a magnet and a vertical metal surface.

5. I read as much as I can about a subject before commenting on it, and 
that includes these claims of over-unity electrical machines. Park brags 
that he has never read a paper about cold fusion.

6. Park always puts theory ahead of experiments. I put experiments first, 
but Carey says he has not performed experiments or measurements in the 
usual sense of the word. He relies upon subjective impressions such as how 
bright the lights are.

In short, there is a world of difference between Park and me. If you 
continue to make this empty accusation, you will only reveal how ignorant 
you are, so I suggest you shut up.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 09:46:10 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 12:42:13 EDT
Subject: Carey is correct about only "two" statements.
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Dear Group,

Carey states;
<The plasma fusion reactor guy is one of them (Scam) from what we can tell. 
(1) We talked to him the other day. (2 ) He gives people that may really have 
something a bad name.>

(The Plasma Fusion guy is me)
I do give people like him a bad name - simply put, while they "May" have 
something - 
"I DO" have testable prototypes and it tends to give those "without" - A BAD 
NAME.

Wayne (the inventor?), I do sympathize for your radiation poisoning and 
whatever else is wrong with both of you (besides your spelling) - but please 
leave me out of it. 

They are after $20,000,000 from a well known free energy investigator and 
feel the need to slam my work in an attempt to keep me from getting their 
money. Wayne's ideas were obtuse, incoherent and his understanding of plasma 
was, well - unfathomable. He has discovered how to generate a room 
temperature solid "Solar Flare" that will loose it's magnetic properties at 
20deg below zero - "WOW". Furthermore - when this material is smashed and all 
the pieces crumble away - the magnetism will still be there!!!!!  That not 
only took my breath away - but catalyzed the end of that conversation.... 

To the unnamed investigator - PLEASE, see what they have to offer FIRST. 

Carey also states,
<No arrogant attitude's on this end. Only Respect for anyone that contacts 
us. 
810 744 9587 Home>

No arrogant attitudes, only respect............

Speechlessly stunned,
Chris Arnold

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 11:02:48 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Fw: Reply to Jed from Jack Carey
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:07:14 -0400
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Jones writes:
>Perhaps Carey would get a little more respect from his target audience 
>(the Dennis Lee crowd) if he opts for the always popular diversionary 
>tactic of the  meaningless mantra - how does "phase conjugation" grab you?

And Jed replies:
Great! It has a linguistic ring, and an antique, Victorian touch.

Keith hollers:
ARGHHHH! This was exactly my point in my parable for Bruce. Do
either of your KNOW what phase conjugation is? Let me guess,
you know it because Bearden spouts off about it ad nauseum.
So when you hear it, you think "Oh, more of Beardens spouting,
not worth the trouble". 

We may agree about the spouting, but about phase conjugation
nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not here to educate,
merely to point a finger and say "look here". Read the optics
texts, then try applying the basic idea to the low freq.
range. Having built several devices which embody this concept,
I can tell you that it's work knowing more about. FORGET YOU EVER
HEARD ABOUT BEARDEN and read the literature.

But of course, no one does. The best way to discredit an
idea is to become a zealot advocate of it. I sometimes wonder,
at my most paranoid moments, if the oil companies aren't
PAYING people like Tom to go around doing this. But then I
think, "No, the world is full of such people who'd gladly
do the job for free".

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 11:37:45 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:35:27 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC: Will ride in Cirrus SR20
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The flight school / pilot service downstairs recently acquired a new type 
of airplane, a Cirrus SR20. See:

http://www.cirrusdesign.com

In a couple of weeks, after they get insurance, I will take a ride in 
it.  I will bring a camera and write a short article about the experience, 
although I do not know much about small airplanes. I have flown in them six 
times. People who know something about small airplanes may want to e-mail 
me suggestions as to what I should look for.

The Cirrus design is revolutionary in many ways. It was described in the 
New York Times magazine, in an article available at the manufacturer's web 
site. The airplane cruises at 19 miles per gallon, and it features 
simplified controls and advanced electronic instruments that reportedly 
make it easier to fly. (I wouldn't know.) The entire airplane is equipped 
with a parachute for a worst-case emergency. The inside is luxurious and quiet.

I think this technology may bloom if cold fusion or some other anomalous 
energy source can be perfected, and air traffic control can be improved.

This is more ambitious than my last reports on new vehicles, in which I 
described an electric scooter and an electric bicycle. (The bicycle has now 
gone 900 miles, by the way.) I feel a lot more comfortable with a bicycle, 
although it is probably more dangerous than the airplane. I should cage a 
ride in a hybrid electric car. I have heard it feels the same as any car, 
except it is quieter with less-than-average pickup. It could not have less 
pickup than my 1994 Metro, which is unhappy climbing large hills with the 
air conditioning on.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 11:37:47 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:26:39 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Fw: Reply to Jed from Jack Carey
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Keith Nagel wrote:


>And Jed replies:
>Great! It has a linguistic ring, and an antique, Victorian touch.
>
>Keith hollers:
>ARGHHHH! This was exactly my point in my parable for Bruce. Do
>either of your KNOW what phase conjugation is? Let me guess,
>you know it because Bearden spouts off about it ad nauseum.

No, sorry, I did not know that it meant anything. I thought it was a fancy 
sounding made-up term. I had no intention of ridiculing or debunking an 
actual concept.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 12:06:31 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 12:01:40 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Reply to Jed from Jack Carey
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Keith hollers:

>ARGHHHH! This was exactly my point in my parable for Bruce. Do
>either of your KNOW what phase conjugation is? Let me guess,
>you know it because Bearden spouts off about it ad nauseum.
>So when you hear it, you think "Oh, more of Beardens spouting,
>not worth the trouble".

Hey Keith,

Relax... The original point (as you begrudgingly surmise) is not to "dis" a 
legitimate field of inquiry but only to demonstrate that the universe is filled with 
any number of overworked malapropisms which often are tossed out there only 
to substitute for real understanding - or at least to attempt to disguise a lack of 
real results, i.e. like when your rock solid 500% OU device can't self-power 
and you don't really understand what C.O.P. means, then it may be expedient 
to just fly off on some other obfuscation.

Maybe I should have used one those other fine universal elixirs, like 
"degenerate semiconductor," but somebody on the list probably thinks that's a 
pretty hot topic too.

>Read the optics texts, then try applying the basic idea to the low freq.
>range. Having built several devices which embody this concept,
>I can tell you that it's work knowing more about.

OK. I'll bite. I know about phase conjugation in optics. And I've read enough 
of Bearden's stuff for two lifetimes.

It's the free energy aspect that is over my head... like rigorously, man ;-)

And I would very much like to hear more on this forum about real experiments 
and particularly about the details of those experiments that point to anomalies 
etc. So please, consider this a segue to explain your work with phase 
conjugation.

Next time I'll try to choose a more apt candidate for "meaningless mantra."

Regards,

Jones




-------- End of forwarded message --------



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 12:59:12 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:52:07 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
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>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:19:29
>-0900:
>
>>At 9:49 PM 6/17/1, Dean T. Miller wrote:
>>
>>>What's more likely is that your switch is being affected by the
>>>humidity, and not turning fully off.  There's probably some kind of
>>>corrosion in the switch that the humidity affects and presents a path,
>>>albeit a high resistance, for the power.  The lower voltage (it's
>>>still AC and still going through the ballast) is what's keeping the
>>>tube feebly glowing.
>>
>>A very good possibility, more likely I would guess than my suggestion of a
>>possible short to ground.  This is easily checked by measuring the output
>>voltage of the switch (relative to ground) when the switch is damp.
>
>Neither of these suggestions explain the travelling waves (bands of
>light and shade) in the tube (though these did disappear more or less
>after the tube had been removed from its holder and put back in again).
>The wavelength of the bands was about 5-8 cm (hard to say exactly
>because they were moving).

***{The emission wavelengths for the elements that are listed in the
*Handbook* are limited to the range from the vacuum ultraviolet to the far
infrared, and so the wavelength you observed, above, isn't going to appear
there. Oddly, 21 cm is the wavelength of emission/absorption of monoatomic,
neutral hydrogen, and 7 cm is its 2nd subharmonic. But since this is a
standing wave, it would beat at the 1st subharmonic, not the 2nd. If
hydrogen is the source, that would give a beat wavelength of 10.5 cm. Could
your measurement have been off by that much? If not, then doubling the mean
of the range you cited suggests that the wavelength of the parent signal
should be around 13 cm. Note that this is a long microwave wavelength, and
can only be rendered visible to you if microwave emissions from your
fluorescent tube are so intense that they are exciting the phospor--a
circumstance which seems rather unlikely to me. Of course, maybe I'm wrong
about that. There is no doubt that intense microwaves will light up a
fluorescent tube: see http://hochwald.tripod.com/fluoro/index.html , for
example.

In pursuit of that hypothesis, I mucked around for awhile trying to find
the RF emission frequencies of mercury vapor, without luck. If you also
cannot find this info, I suggest you find a radio receiver that can pick up
f = c/w = 3x10^10/6.5 = 4.62 GHz. Since that falls just above the UHF band,
you will need an SHF receiver to detect it, which is likely to be
expensive. Thus I suggest that you borrow or rent, rather than buy. If you
obtain such a receiver, hold it next to your fluorescent tube while you are
seeing the standing waves, and search about in the vicinity of 13 cm. If
you hit a strong signal which goes away when the tube ceases to glow, you
can reasonably conclude that what you are seeing is a standing wave caused
by RF emissions within the tube.

Given that outcome, I would then replace your present on-off switch with a
variable resistance switch, so that you can turn the current down to low
levels without turning it completely off. My guess is that you will be able
to induce the standing wave at a low current level, but will not be able to
do so with the tube turned completely off. That will lay to rest your
evident suspicions that there is a source of "free energy" within the tube.

By the way, if your fluorescent is churning out microwaves that are this
strong when only subject to a leakage current, it might be a good idea to
shield it with some foil while you are playing with it, especially when it
is turned fully on. (Is it possible that whenever we use fluorescent
lights, we are frying outselves with microwaves? Surely not!)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>Nevertheless these are indeed likely explanations. I'll see if I can
>measure a voltage between earth and the lamp, with the switch turned
>off.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 13:18:01 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <jonesb9 pacbell.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: <jcarey9622 aol.com>
Subject: Re: Reply to Jed from Jack Carey
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   Dear Vortexians and other wizzards and any doubting Thomas types  in the
western Ohio - Detroit area, I will pick you up friday eve and go find out
about this technology. Bring your meaursing devices. Or for that matter any
one that wants to fly in to Detroit this weekend i will pick you up and take
you to the wizzard. Hey Jed why don't you fly in this weekend. On a fact
finding mission.   Bruce Meland PS  I did make a similar offer 10 days ago
but no response.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, June 18, 2001 12:07 PM
Subject: RE: Reply to Jed from Jack Carey


>Keith hollers:
>
>>ARGHHHH! This was exactly my point in my parable for Bruce. Do
>>either of your KNOW what phase conjugation is? Let me guess,
>>you know it because Bearden spouts off about it ad nauseum.
>>So when you hear it, you think "Oh, more of Beardens spouting,
>>not worth the trouble".
>
>Hey Keith,
>
>Relax... The original point (as you begrudgingly surmise) is not to "dis" a
>legitimate field of inquiry but only to demonstrate that the universe is
filled with
>any number of overworked malapropisms which often are tossed out there only
>to substitute for real understanding - or at least to attempt to disguise a
lack of
>real results, i.e. like when your rock solid 500% OU device can't
self-power
>and you don't really understand what C.O.P. means, then it may be expedient
>to just fly off on some other obfuscation.
>
>Maybe I should have used one those other fine universal elixirs, like
>"degenerate semiconductor," but somebody on the list probably thinks that's
a
>pretty hot topic too.
>
>>Read the optics texts, then try applying the basic idea to the low freq.
>>range. Having built several devices which embody this concept,
>>I can tell you that it's work knowing more about.
>
>OK. I'll bite. I know about phase conjugation in optics. And I've read
enough
>of Bearden's stuff for two lifetimes.
>
>It's the free energy aspect that is over my head... like rigorously, man
;-)
>
>And I would very much like to hear more on this forum about real
experiments
>and particularly about the details of those experiments that point to
anomalies
>etc. So please, consider this a segue to explain your work with phase
>conjugation.
>
>Next time I'll try to choose a more apt candidate for "meaningless mantra."
>
>Regards,
>
>Jones
>
>
>
>
>-------- End of forwarded message --------
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 13:43:37 2001
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From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Will ride in Cirrus SR20
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<html><DIV>
<P>There is a great cover story in the current Atlantic Monthly that includes an unusual perspective on the Cirrus SR20.&nbsp; It is an extract of a book by Jim Fallows that is due to be published in the next few days.</P>
<P>Mark Goldes, Magnetic Power Inc., Room Temperature Superconductors Inc.<BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;From: Jed Rothwell <JEDROTHWELL INFINITE-ENERGY.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;To: vortex-L eskimo.com 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: OFF TOPIC: Will ride in Cirrus SR20 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:35:27 -0400 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;The flight school / pilot service downstairs recently acquired a new 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;type 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;of airplane, a Cirrus SR20. See: 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;http://www.cirrusdesign.com 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;In a couple of weeks, after they get insurance, I will take a ride 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;in 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;it. I will bring a camera and write a short article about the 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;experience, 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;although I do not know much about small airplanes. I have flown in 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;them six 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;times. People who know something about small airplanes may want to 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;e-mail 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;me suggestions as to what I should look for. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;The Cirrus design is revolutionary in many ways. It was described in 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;the 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;New York Times magazine, in an article available at the 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;manufacturer's web 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;site. The airplane cruises at 19 miles per gallon, and it features 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;simplified controls and advanced electronic instruments that 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;reportedly 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;make it easier to fly. (I wouldn't know.) The entire airplane is 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;equipped 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;with a parachute for a worst-case emergency. The inside is luxurious 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;and quiet. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;I think this technology may bloom if cold fusion or some other 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;anomalous 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;energy source can be perfected, and air traffic control can be 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;improved. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;This is more ambitious than my last reports on new vehicles, in 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;which I 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;described an electric scooter and an electric bicycle. (The bicycle 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;has now 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;gone 900 miles, by the way.) I feel a lot more comfortable with a 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;bicycle, 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;although it is probably more dangerous than the airplane. I should 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;cage a 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;ride in a hybrid electric car. I have heard it feels the same as any 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;car, 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;except it is quieter with less-than-average pickup. It could not 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;have less 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;pickup than my 1994 Metro, which is unhappy climbing large hills 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;with the 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;air conditioning on. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;- Jed 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href="http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p></html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 13:48:39 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:46:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: What I said about Dr. Lindermann
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There is a difference between a slam, ie comparing, Jed Rothwell to 
Robert Parks, and a legitimate commentary on someone who, IMHO, is 
full of B S. I wrote Dr. Lindermann an email in which I asked him if 
he had ever seen anyone heat water. I also asked some other technical 
questions. He ignored me.

If the situation were reversed, and if I had the answer to the 
questions posed, I would tell the questioneer that the answers were 
in my book. Had he done so, I would have purchased a copy. Since Dr. 
Lindermann ignored me, I assume that he doesn't have any answers, and 
that his book is more rehash of what various F E researchers, none of 
whom, AFAIK, have been able to heat water, have asserted. During the 
International Tesla Society days, we used to refer to people who did 
this as having vaporware. As I've gotten older and more cynical, I've 
started to refer to this behavior as their being a B S artist, and 
that they are trying to blow smoke up my ass. You have to learn 
Bruce, to differentiate between a legitimate researcher who is 
interested in the theory of why and how thing work, and scam artists 
who are out to separate people from their money. This means people 
who are looking for investments in their technology and people like 
Dr. Linermann who are out to sell books.

Further more I'm still upset about your comparing Jed to Robert 
Parks. Not content to comment about things that he knows something 
about, Dr. Parks has started attacking magnetic therapy and 
homeopathic healing, about which he knows nothing. It's like me 
commenting on aircraft design, about which I know almost nothing. Dr. 
Parks behavior absolutely infuriates me. I have been relived of water 
on the elbow by a homeopathic remedy. I have also seen people 
experience relief of symptoms, particularly pain, after using a 
magnetic therapy pad. Can I prove it? No, because as Dr. Parks would 
point out, 30% of the people will feel relief after taking a sugar 
pill, AKA,the placebo effect. But there is a body of knowledge with 
explanations for why they work, and many satisfied customers who will 
attest that both therapies worked for them.

Another thing I want to mention. If I had a working F E machine and I 
wanted to keep people out of it, I would lease it to the customer on 
a cents per K W hour basis. If I had a machine that could deliver 
power, I could parallel it into the utility power supply and bill the 
customer. I would have no trouble financing such a machine either, 
anything that produces a monthly cashflow is financable. The bottom 
line, Bruce is that you are wasting your time, and lots of paper by 
giving press space to people who claim to have produced F E but are 
unable to heat water. I know of two investors who both own 
manufacturing businesses and would be able to invest $10,000,000 each 
if they saw a working F E machine.  You can bet your last dollar, 
that I will not tell either of them about any alleged F E machine 
until I see it heat water, If I were to do otherwise, I would be 
doing what is call yanking their chain, which is a good way to 
destroy my professional creditability and the trust of the investor.

( Later ) Since I haven't posted this message yet, I'm going to 
continue.  You have to realize Bruce, that when something is 
published that act gives a degree of credulity to the inventors 
claims. It is assumed that the editor has invested the time to 
investigate the claims. An editor who fails to do that will be out of 
business if he continues to print trash. The reason I'm spending all 
this time talking to you about this Bruce is because you have a 
publication and you owe it to your readers to confront people who 
make these claims of O U output to heat water. I assume that you want 
to remain in business, so you owe it to yourself and your investors 
too.

>Have you tole this to the person that wrote this slam?
>
>  >>Bruce,
>>>
>>>I think you would've been better off to have spent that $37.00 plus S & H
>on a "Shrink".  :-)
>  >>
>>>Regards,   Frederick
>>
>>I agree, I linked to Dr. Lindermann's site from Jerry Decker's site.
>>I asked him some pointed questions. I have yet to receive a reply.
>>Bottom line, anybody can write a book, but it takes a break through
>  >to heat water.
>>
>  >>>  I think you serious tinkerers would save a lot of time and money if you
>>>>   purchased the recent published book "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold
>>>   > Electricity by Dr. Peter Lindemann for about $37, includes shipping
>and
>>
>>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 13:48:41 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:46:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Amish not luddites
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>Keith Nagel wrote:
>
>
>>  I think the phrase
>>Luddite might be more appropriate.
>
>Ihave great respect for their views about technology. They adapt 
>inventions which enhance their community values, such as off-grid 
>electricity, indoor plumbing, modern medicine, refrigeration for 
>diary farms and Cheerios breakfast cereal. They try out many new 
>technologies, and sometimes reject them years later, or modify them 
>in clever ways to avoid a negative impact on society (both theirs 
>and ours).

I agree. I didn't realize that the Amish utilized off the grid electricity.

>  In the 1920s many of them used automobiles but later decided that 
>in most case most people should not have them. They make reasonable, 
>humane exceptions to their rules. They do not withdraw from the rest 
>of society or refuse to participate. They are quite different from 
>extremist fanatics on both ends of the spectrum.
>
>- Jed

Their life style is based on a deep religious faith. Their lifestyle 
is probably quite close to the life we will have in the earth made 
new.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 13:48:44 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:46:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel
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>thomas malloy wrote:
>
>>Sorry to be a wet blanket for this energy source Jed, but hog 
>>manure is more valuable as a soil amendment than as energy. OTOH, 
>>you could spread it on the ground and grow industrial hemp which 
>>you then burn for energy.
>
>You can use it for both. First extract the methane, then use the 
>leftovers for fertilizer.
>
>In the U.S., industrial hemp production is widely prohibited because 
>of anti-marijuana laws. That's a darn shame.
>
>- Jed

No you can't do that, What makes manure valuable as a soil amendment 
is the organic chemicals which result from fungal decomposition of 
the cellulose. Sorry about that, but that's reality. We're trying to 
get the laws against industrial hemp changed were in the land of 
10,000 idiot liberals, Jessie the Gov is with us, but I don't suppose 
that big brother will tolerate it. Someone proposed building a series 
of railroad tracks going out in every direction from power plant. 
Biomass would be harvested in every direction and converted into 
energy. Now that I've relized that P V panels don't produce very much 
energy, I find this idea increasing appealing

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 14:00:41 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:59:09 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <jonesb9@pacbell.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Carey must show meaningful demo and provide read data first
Cc: <jcarey9622 aol.com>
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Bruce Meland wrote:

>Bring your meaursing devices. . . .

>Hey Jed why don't you fly in this weekend. On a fact
>finding mission.

I will not fly in unless the demonstration in the garage has been improved 
substantially from the time Ken Rauen saw it, or unless the original, small 
self-sustaining unit will be shown. The demonstration in it present state 
proves nothing, and you cannot bring in measuring devices that will reveal 
useful information. Okay, I suppose you could bring a full set of 
instruments and spend a week setting up and testing . . .

Carey et al. must do two things:

1. The test must be reconfigured with standard instruments instead of by 
guess and by golly rough estimates.

2. A coherent description of the setup must be published on Internet, 
written by someone who knows the difference between amperage and 
horsepower. This presentation must be at least as good as a junior high 
school science fair project with a passing grade.

Once that is done, various investors might be willing to go see the thing, 
including me. These are the rock-bottom minimum requirements. You cannot 
expect serious people to spend time and airfare to evaluate a project 
conducted by people who will not make any effort to explain themselves.

The best and easiest thing to do would be to set it up in a self-sustaining 
arrangement. Despite Carey's claims, if the device is real this can be done 
in a few days at little or no expense. It does not require $20 million. He 
told me emphatically that it would require this amount, but that is 
nonsense. A self-sustaining demonstration combined with sale of 20 to 100 
prototype machines at cost would bring in $20 million, $200 million, or $2 
billion in venture capital if that is what they want. (Why they would want 
investment funds, I cannot imagine.) There is no reason not to set up this 
demonstration, and every reason to do it. If they refrain from doing it I 
will be forced to conclude they are deluded, crazy, or frauds. I can't tell 
which, and I don't care. The pathology of fruitcake inventors and criminals 
does not interest me.


>    Bruce Meland PS  I did make a similar offer 10 days ago
>but no response.

You cannot expect a response. There is nothing here to respond to. Give us 
a bare minimum set of facts, in some kind of description. These people have 
been working for 10, 15 or 20 years -- depending on when you ask. Surely by 
now they had time to write down some particulars, and gather some 
performance data. As I said, a 7th grade science fair level will do. (Not 
to boast, but I have seen many science fair presentations and I am sure my 
daughters and every other kid in Chamblee High School could have run rings 
around Carey.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 14:22:20 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:21:49 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Amish not luddites
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thomas malloy wrote:

>I agree. I didn't realize that the Amish utilized off the grid electricity.

There are different sects, and maybe some do not. The ones in Lancaster, PA 
use off-grid electricity, especially dairy farmers, who must have 
refrigeration and pasteurization. There is a debate in the Amish community 
about pollution from Diesel generators. Unfortunately, central Pennsylvania 
does not have much wind, so off-net wind electricity is not an option. 
Small scale wind is not economical, anyway (but then neither is Diesel 
generation).


>Their life style is based on a deep religious faith. Their lifestyle is 
>probably quite close to the life we will have in the earth made new.

Then the earth will not be made new, because only a tiny fraction of people 
would live that way voluntarily. I wouldn't. To me, the idea of harvesting 
grain manually when we have machines to do it is worse than slavery. It is 
mindless, soul-destroying labor with no purpose, like digging holes and 
filling them up, or doing long division on paper instead of using a 
calculator. I am sure we can find a way to have our cake and eat it too: we 
will have technology without pollution. A plan to save the earth that 
depends on improving human nature is bound to fail.

Mind you, I don't mind harvesting a half-acre garden of corn and tomatoes 
by hand!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 14:44:35 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Amish not luddites
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:50:08 -0400
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Hi.

I'm curious about Jed's claim the Amish use off-grid 
electricity. Mostly what I find on the web suggests
no electricity, but perhaps this is a bit like saying
to be Jewish you don't eat pork. 

My guess is they cheat quite a bit (smile). I'm reminded
of that old story about a man, a woman, and a piece of fruit.
A little knowledge may be a dangerous thing. But every Vort should
stand ready and willing to bite.

http://www.ccps.org/ccps/wbl/kharkins/amish/electricity.html
http://www.800padutch.com/amish.shtml

K

PS:
My poor post has been reduced to one line, propagating
endlessly around the vortex. No, the Amish are not
Luddites as the two are separated by about 100 years and
an ocean or two. The odds of selling either of them
such a device as an experimental alt/energy machine
are either vanishing or impossible, Amish and Luddite
respectively.

I mean, you may import and sell the best liquor in
the world but a business plan including the opening
of a chain of bars in Afghanistan may not make it.
Despite the fact that "hidden" drinking occurs.


-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 4:47 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Amish not luddites


>Keith Nagel wrote:
>
>
>>  I think the phrase
>>Luddite might be more appropriate.
>
>Ihave great respect for their views about technology. They adapt 
>inventions which enhance their community values, such as off-grid 
>electricity, indoor plumbing, modern medicine, refrigeration for 
>diary farms and Cheerios breakfast cereal. They try out many new 
>technologies, and sometimes reject them years later, or modify them 
>in clever ways to avoid a negative impact on society (both theirs 
>and ours).

I agree. I didn't realize that the Amish utilized off the grid electricity.

>  In the 1920s many of them used automobiles but later decided that 
>in most case most people should not have them. They make reasonable, 
>humane exceptions to their rules. They do not withdraw from the rest 
>of society or refuse to participate. They are quite different from 
>extremist fanatics on both ends of the spectrum.
>
>- Jed

Their life style is based on a deep religious faith. Their lifestyle 
is probably quite close to the life we will have in the earth made 
new.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 14:51:46 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:49:58 +1000
Organization: Improving
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References: <v01530502b7536785e9f5 [12.21.208.47]> <v01530502b7536785e9f5@[12.21.208.47]> <p8dritskubaa9a93a5cgkheins7mtpjgro@4ax.com> <v04011702b753e73bf36c@[207.8.127.66]>
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:52:07
-0500:
[snip]
>>Neither of these suggestions explain the travelling waves (bands of
>>light and shade) in the tube (though these did disappear more or less
>>after the tube had been removed from its holder and put back in again).
>>The wavelength of the bands was about 5-8 cm (hard to say exactly
>>because they were moving).
>
>***{The emission wavelengths for the elements that are listed in the
>*Handbook* are limited to the range from the vacuum ultraviolet to the far
>infrared, and so the wavelength you observed, above, isn't going to appear
>there. Oddly, 21 cm is the wavelength of emission/absorption of monoatomic,
>neutral hydrogen, and 7 cm is its 2nd subharmonic. 
[snip]
The wavelength mentioned was not an electromagnetic wavelength. It was
the wavelength of a longitudinal pressure wave in the plasma. As such, I
suspect that the velocity of sound is the appropriate velocity, not the
speed of light.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 14:59:00 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:57:44 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <vutsitk89qnd1gqc99i3hem1ratcbdtll8 4ax.com>
References: <9f6rits5so7c68biuj46k4e253l93phf23 4ax.com> <9f6rits5so7c68biuj46k4e253l93phf23@4ax.com> <3b46a39e.337753283@mail.midiowa.net> <4.2.0.58.20010618081121.00959a20@postoffice.swbell.net>
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In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:16:42 -0500:
[snip]
>>Not very likely.  If anything at all gets into the fluorescent tube,
>>the gas would be able to leak out and you'd get no light.
>
>Interesting except that the gas in the tube is at about 1/10 atmosphere 
>pressure.  Leaky tubs gain gas rather then loose it.  The increase of gas 
>raises the voltage needed to arc causing the tube to eventually 
>fail..   Moisture is unlikely to be able to enter or exit due to the size 
>of the molicule.

Water molecules are actually no larger than either oxygen or nitrogen,
however they may interact more with their environment because they are
polar.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 15:02:31 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:01:25 +1000
Organization: Improving
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References: <v01530502b7536785e9f5 [12.21.208.47]> <v01530502b7536785e9f5@[12.21.208.47]> <p8dritskubaa9a93a5cgkheins7mtpjgro@4ax.com> <4.2.0.58.20010618081821.00952ac0@postoffice.swbell.net>
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In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:26:44 -0500:

>Folks...   There is no anomaly about afterglow with florescent tubes.  The 
>coating is phosphorous.  

What I observed was at least 100 times stronger than normal afterglow.

>There is also no anomaly about power off glow 
>which is caused by your wiring.  When the switch is installed in the 
>neutral line rather then the hot a tube can glow depending upon the amount 
>of ground coupling.   Which will very with humidity.
[snip]
If the switch is in the ground line, then I should be able to measure
the full voltage on the fitting relative to ground, when the switch is
off. I will try this.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 15:36:43 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:33:37 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Fwd: Re: An interesting anomaly
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:

>Isn't the purpose of a starter to heat the filament, which is
>essentially a hot cathode?

No. A starter provides only a higher voltage needed for startup. Once a plasma 
has been initiated, resistance drops way off and the tube operates at a 
moderate voltage. There is no filament in a fluorescent, as in a hot cathode 
electron tube, or "valve" as the Brits like to say. Fluorescent electrodes are 
generally shaped like flat wedge.

But then again, you are an Aussie, no? Maybe they do thing differently down 
under... but I doubt it, as you said it was 17 watts and that wouldn't be enough 
for a hot cathode device - as they are rather inefficient.

BTW, did you try taking the face plate off of the switch and then giving the 
contacts a good spraying with a CO2 "duster" (preferable)or even WD40 (last 
resort).  That should eleiminate the anomaly.

But if not, send it to BLP for testing.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 17:37:50 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:35:13 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
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Robin wrote:

>The wavelength mentioned was not an electromagnetic wavelength. It was
>the wavelength of a longitudinal pressure wave in the plasma. As such, I
>suspect that the velocity of sound is the appropriate velocity, not the
>speed of light.

***{In order for you to observe it, it had to alter the brightness of the
phospor. Electromagnetic waves can do that, but, insofar as I am aware,
sound cannot. If you have evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it.
--MJ}***

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 17:37:51 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:33:33 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
Resent-Message-ID: <"gOYUP1.0.Xy2.hwfBx" mx1>
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Jones Beene wrote:

>BTW, did you try taking the face plate off of the switch and then giving the
>contacts a good spraying with a CO2 "duster" (preferable)or even WD40 (last
>resort

***{It could be *literally* Robin's "last resort." The reason: WD40 may be
an excellent conductor of electricity, and is beyond a doubt highly
flammable. Why do I say that? Because a friend of mine, about 20 years ago,
sprayed WD40 inside his car radio in an attempt to remove an accumulation
of dust. Result: it immediately began to crackle and fizz, and then burst
into flames!

My advice: do *not* spray anything with WD40 if live electrical contacts
may be present. In the worst case scenario, Robin gets electrocuted, and,
in the best case, the switch catches on fire.

--Mitchell Jones}***

).  That should eleiminate the anomaly.

***{And Robin as well. :-) --MJ}***

>But if not, send it to BLP for testing.
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 18:11:42 2001
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:09:43 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: PA Amish use of electricity
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Here is a book with a short but good description of the Amish use of
electricity and compressed air tools: L. Niemeyer, D. Kraybill, "Old Order
Amish," (Johns Hopkins U. Press, 1993), pp. 66 - 70, 151. The list of
devices they do and not allow is thought-provoking. It seems arbitrary
until you learn about their philosophy and social policy. This book covers
the community around Lancaster, PA; other communities may have different
rules. The rules "vary considerably by settlement, affiliation and
district." For example, a small group in South Carolina I visited runs a
restaurant using mains electricity. I do not think there is a central
ruling authority.

Allowed: off-grid electricity, mainly from Diesel with some solar panels.
Warning lights on buggies, flashlights, electric lights for older people or
people with bad eyesight, electric welding, power saws, refrigeration,
pasteurization, electric cattle fences, some blenders and other kitchen
equipment, washing machines, automatic milkers, electronic cash registers,
digital scales, calculators, credit card readers with modems, medical and
veterinary equipment. Compressed air is preferred for hammers, hydraulic
lifts, and other heavy factory equipment, just as it is in most automobile
repair shops. Air driven kitchen blenders and other equipment is used.

Not Allowed: mains electricity, clothes dryers, hair dryers, dishwashers,
air conditioners, VCR, television, general purpose computers. Radio and
telephones are used emergencies and work (weather and crop reports).

Diesel and gasoline engines are common. You often see horses drawing farm
wagons with gasoline powered threshers on board, reminiscent of the large
19th century McCormick horse drawn threshers and later steam driven
threshing machines in the U.S. and England.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 19:27:31 2001
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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 21:29:19 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
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Robin:

The florescent tube does not completely short during discharge.  it 
actually dumps off to about 100V  so you will more likely find something on 
the order of 20VRMS  Also the impedance is very high so use a 
digital...  or even better a VTVM if you have one.

At 08:01 AM 6/19/01 +1000, you wrote:
>If the switch is in the ground line, then I should be able to measure
>the full voltage on the fitting relative to ground, when the switch is
>off. I will try this.

Charlie Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net 

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 19:52:44 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: What I said about Dr. Lindermann
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:35:45 -0700
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Tom I have the book by Lindeman. Yes it is a little spendy but before  i
pass judgement iw will run it by some motor wizzards(The work of Ed Gray is
mainly what he covered). I doubt if he will even break even on this book
even if he answered each email and got a order from each reply. It appeares
he spent a lot of time researching Gray and his cold electricity technology.
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, June 18, 2001 1:49 PM
Subject: What I said about Dr. Lindermann


>There is a difference between a slam, ie comparing, Jed Rothwell to
>Robert Parks, and a legitimate commentary on someone who, IMHO, is
>full of B S. I wrote Dr. Lindermann an email in which I asked him if
>he had ever seen anyone heat water. I also asked some other technical
>questions. He ignored me.
>
>If the situation were reversed, and if I had the answer to the
>questions posed, I would tell the questioneer that the answers were
>in my book. Had he done so, I would have purchased a copy. Since Dr.
>Lindermann ignored me, I assume that he doesn't have any answers, and
>that his book is more rehash of what various F E researchers, none of
>whom, AFAIK, have been able to heat water, have asserted. During the
>International Tesla Society days, we used to refer to people who did
>this as having vaporware. As I've gotten older and more cynical, I've
>started to refer to this behavior as their being a B S artist, and
>that they are trying to blow smoke up my ass. You have to learn
>Bruce, to differentiate between a legitimate researcher who is
>interested in the theory of why and how thing work, and scam artists
>who are out to separate people from their money. This means people
>who are looking for investments in their technology and people like
>Dr. Linermann who are out to sell books.
>
>Further more I'm still upset about your comparing Jed to Robert
>Parks. Not content to comment about things that he knows something
>about, Dr. Parks has started attacking magnetic therapy and
>homeopathic healing, about which he knows nothing. It's like me
>commenting on aircraft design, about which I know almost nothing. Dr.
>Parks behavior absolutely infuriates me. I have been relived of water
>on the elbow by a homeopathic remedy. I have also seen people
>experience relief of symptoms, particularly pain, after using a
>magnetic therapy pad. Can I prove it? No, because as Dr. Parks would
>point out, 30% of the people will feel relief after taking a sugar
>pill, AKA,the placebo effect. But there is a body of knowledge with
>explanations for why they work, and many satisfied customers who will
>attest that both therapies worked for them.
>
>Another thing I want to mention. If I had a working F E machine and I
>wanted to keep people out of it, I would lease it to the customer on
>a cents per K W hour basis. If I had a machine that could deliver
>power, I could parallel it into the utility power supply and bill the
>customer. I would have no trouble financing such a machine either,
>anything that produces a monthly cashflow is financable. The bottom
>line, Bruce is that you are wasting your time, and lots of paper by
>giving press space to people who claim to have produced F E but are
>unable to heat water. I know of two investors who both own
>manufacturing businesses and would be able to invest $10,000,000 each
>if they saw a working F E machine.  You can bet your last dollar,
>that I will not tell either of them about any alleged F E machine
>until I see it heat water, If I were to do otherwise, I would be
>doing what is call yanking their chain, which is a good way to
>destroy my professional creditability and the trust of the investor.
>
>( Later ) Since I haven't posted this message yet, I'm going to
>continue.  You have to realize Bruce, that when something is
>published that act gives a degree of credulity to the inventors
>claims. It is assumed that the editor has invested the time to
>investigate the claims. An editor who fails to do that will be out of
>business if he continues to print trash. The reason I'm spending all
>this time talking to you about this Bruce is because you have a
>publication and you owe it to your readers to confront people who
>make these claims of O U output to heat water. I assume that you want
>to remain in business, so you owe it to yourself and your investors
>too.
>
>>Have you tole this to the person that wrote this slam?
>>
>>  >>Bruce,
>>>>
>>>>I think you would've been better off to have spent that $37.00 plus S &
H
>>on a "Shrink".  :-)
>>  >>
>>>>Regards,   Frederick
>>>
>>>I agree, I linked to Dr. Lindermann's site from Jerry Decker's site.
>>>I asked him some pointed questions. I have yet to receive a reply.
>>>Bottom line, anybody can write a book, but it takes a break through
>>  >to heat water.
>>>
>>  >>>  I think you serious tinkerers would save a lot of time and money if
you
>>>>>   purchased the recent published book "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold
>>>>   > Electricity by Dr. Peter Lindemann for about $37, includes shipping
>>and
>>>
>>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 20:11:22 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: An interesting anomaly
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At 3:33 PM 6/18/1, Jones Beene wrote:
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>>Isn't the purpose of a starter to heat the filament, which is
>>essentially a hot cathode?
>
>No. A starter provides only a higher voltage needed for startup. Once a plasma
>has been initiated, resistance drops way off and the tube operates at a
>moderate voltage. There is no filament in a fluorescent, as in a hot cathode
>electron tube, or "valve" as the Brits like to say. Fluorescent electrodes are
>generally shaped like flat wedge.

Jones, it sounds like you are confusing commercial high voltage
flourescents, which are high voltage cold cathode tubes, with ordinary low
voltage (120 V) home flourescent lights, which have filaments at both ends
that are heated by the starter before voltage is applied across the tube.
The current is then regulated by balast and the filament heated by the
through-tube current.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 20:42:19 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 03:40:15 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:09:03 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk
<rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:

>Neither of these suggestions explain the travelling waves (bands of
>light and shade) in the tube (though these did disappear more or less
>after the tube had been removed from its holder and put back in again).
>The wavelength of the bands was about 5-8 cm (hard to say exactly
>because they were moving).

The bands you see within the tube are the normal plasma fields
shuttling around.  You don't seem them when the tube is in normal
operation because the light output is too great.

The easiest way to recreate the effect is to connect the fluorescent
to a Variac, start the tube and then reduce the voltage.  A voltage
below about 40 volts will "quench" the plasma, but just above that
voltage you'll see the plasma.  (I have several battery operated
fluorescents that display the same effect when the batteries run low
-- Radio Shack has a really nice, pocket size unit that puts out a
goodly amount of light.  I use them for our normal power outages.)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 18 20:59:40 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: An interesting anomaly
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 03:56:29 GMT
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Hi Horace,

On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:18:57 -0900, hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace
Heffner) wrote:

>Jones, it sounds like you are confusing commercial high voltage
>flourescents, which are high voltage cold cathode tubes, with ordinary low
>voltage (120 V) home flourescent lights, which have filaments at both ends
>that are heated by the starter before voltage is applied across the tube.
>The current is then regulated by balast and the filament heated by the
>through-tube current.

The filaments are turned off once the plasma is ignited.  The
filaments serve only to vaporize the mercury inside the tube which,
once vaporized, remains vaporized due to the running current (the
filaments cool off).

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 18:23:49 +1000
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In reply to  Dean T. Miller's message of Tue, 19 Jun 2001 03:40:15 GMT:

>On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:09:03 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk
><rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>>Neither of these suggestions explain the travelling waves (bands of
>>light and shade) in the tube (though these did disappear more or less
>>after the tube had been removed from its holder and put back in again).
>>The wavelength of the bands was about 5-8 cm (hard to say exactly
>>because they were moving).
>
>The bands you see within the tube are the normal plasma fields
>shuttling around.  You don't seem them when the tube is in normal
>operation because the light output is too great.
[snip]
Thanks Dean, this make sense, though I would have expected them to be
more irregular.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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ISBL7 is coming up july 26-30 in St. Louis.    Abstracts (by author)
are available at
http://home.wxs.nl/~icblsec/
http://home.wxs.nl/~icblsec/pg_abstracts.html

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 06:06:58 2001
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Hi Jones, Robin and all,

Flourescent lamps are divided into two general catagories, that is, instant
start
(cold cathode) and rapid start (hot cathode). The instant start variety contains
no
filaments, is easily identified by single pins on each end and depends soley on
high
voltages and a suitable ground plane for starting.

The rapid start types on the other hand, do contain filaments, and are started
in a
variety of ways. Certain rapid starts are also designed to be instant started.
When
using the older coil type ballasts with rapid start lamps, the filaments are
left
"on" close to the voltage and current level specs of the manufacturer. Some
electronic ballasts also leave the filaments "on" but at reduced levels, and
some
cut off filament current altogether after start-up.

Some compact rapid start lamps use a bi-metal "starter" to initialize the arc
and
then cut out to eliminate filament current. These are the lower wattage lamps
used
in "down" lighting, drop lights, incandescent replacements, etc.

Regards,
Jon



Jones Beene wrote:

> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> >Isn't the purpose of a starter to heat the filament, which is
> >essentially a hot cathode?
>
> No. A starter provides only a higher voltage needed for startup. Once a plasma

> has been initiated, resistance drops way off and the tube operates at a
> moderate voltage. There is no filament in a fluorescent, as in a hot cathode
> electron tube, or "valve" as the Brits like to say. Fluorescent electrodes are

> generally shaped like flat wedge.
>
> But then again, you are an Aussie, no? Maybe they do thing differently down
> under... but I doubt it, as you said it was 17 watts and that wouldn't be
enough
> for a hot cathode device - as they are rather inefficient.
>
> BTW, did you try taking the face plate off of the switch and then giving the
> contacts a good spraying with a CO2 "duster" (preferable)or even WD40 (last
> resort).  That should eleiminate the anomaly.
>
> But if not, send it to BLP for testing.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 06:44:03 2001
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:41:39 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly
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>On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:09:03 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk
><rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>>Neither of these suggestions explain the travelling waves (bands of
>>light and shade) in the tube (though these did disappear more or less
>>after the tube had been removed from its holder and put back in again).
>>The wavelength of the bands was about 5-8 cm (hard to say exactly
>>because they were moving).
>
>The bands you see within the tube are the normal plasma fields
>shuttling around.

***{I assume you are  talking about the magnetic fields that are associated
with the alternating current. If so, what process causes the loops of flux
around the current flow to bunch up in such a way as to produce the
alternating bands that Robin described? Also, even if they do bunch up, how
could they possibly be strong enough to affect the brightness of the
phospor? I find it impossible to imagine how photons emitted from the
center of a fluorescent tube could be so strongly diverted from their paths
as to produce bands of darkness on a surface that is less than 1 inch from
their points of origin. It is far more likely, in my view, that it is
photons travelling parallel to the tube, rather than perpendicular to it,
that are producing the effect. Such photons, if in the long microwave
bands, would beat at about the wavelengths that Robin observed. --MJ}***

You don't seem them when the tube is in normal
>operation because the light output is too great.
>
>The easiest way to recreate the effect is to connect the fluorescent
>to a Variac, start the tube and then reduce the voltage.  A voltage
>below about 40 volts will "quench" the plasma, but just above that
>voltage you'll see the plasma.  (I have several battery operated
>fluorescents that display the same effect when the batteries run low
>-- Radio Shack has a really nice, pocket size unit that puts out a
>goodly amount of light.  I use them for our normal power outages.)
>
>-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 10:21:03 2001
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Subject: Interdimensional lost & found
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Boy, I had a doozy today.  Reality-slippage big time.

Picking up my daughter, the usual toxic fight with my ex started up.  (If
a guy alone in the forest says some words, and no spouse is around to hear
them, is he still wrong?)   :) 

I'd just received back one of my truck keys from her, which I then used to
drive home to pick something up.  I left the key in the ignition because I
didn't want to lose it.  When I got back to the truck, the key was GONE. 
Not in the slot.  Not in my pockets (but I KNOW I left it there and didn't
put it in a pocket.)  But I was really steaming, so I suspected that this
was a case of "disappearing objects" triggered by strong emotions.  Since
I was pissed at my ex, and she'd had that key for years, it certainly was
could be acting as an emotional focus.

So this morning I was thinking about this while coming home from shopping. 
Checked all my pockets again.  Walked into the house while musing on the
idea that human beings could be "natural sorcerers," although remaining in
deep psychological denial because of the positivist/materialist belief
system.  The key might not be in this universe anymore.  Where is it going
to end up? But 'vanished' objects often seem linked to their owners, and
mysteriously return later, unlike objects misplaced in the more usual way. 
As my eyes tracked across the kitchen, my nonverbal thought was:  "clearly
it wasn't 'stolen by the little people' or anything; a lower level of
myself flicked the key out of spacetime in disgust, but since *I* did
that, *I* should be able to retreive it again." 


As that thought appeared, my eyes landed on the key, sitting in the middle
of a clear space on the kitchen table.



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 10:45:43 2001
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:46:21 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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William Beaty wrote:

 
> As that thought appeared, my eyes landed on the key, sitting in the middle
> of a clear space on the kitchen table.

Ah, a clear step toward gnosis!

Next time, Neo, take the blue pill.  ;-)

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 10:49:14 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Neutrinos have mass
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:54:53 -0400
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Hi All.

As we've been flooded by, shall we say, fanciful descriptions
of "nutrino" physics on this list, I'd like to point
folks to some remarkable actual science in that field.

http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/sno/first_results/

Seems that neutrinos DO have mass, and that funky
flava changin' theory is to some degree proved out.

How about that?

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 10:57:44 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC PA Amish use of electricity
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[This may be COPY 2 of this message.]

Here is a book with a short but good description of the Amish use of
electricity and compressed air tools: L. Niemeyer, D. Kraybill, "Old Order
Amish," (Johns Hopkins U. Press, 1993), pp. 66 - 70, 151. The list of
devices they do and not allow is thought-provoking. It seems arbitrary
until you learn about their philosophy and social policy. This book covers
the community around Lancaster, PA; other communities may have different
rules. The rules "vary considerably by settlement, affiliation and
district." For example, a small group in South Carolina I visited runs a
restaurant using mains electricity. I do not think there is a central
ruling authority.

Allowed: off-grid electricity, mainly from Diesel with some solar panels.
Warning lights on buggies, flashlights, electric lights for older people or
people with bad eyesight, electric welding, power saws, refrigeration,
pasteurization, electric cattle fences, some blenders and other kitchen
equipment, washing machines, automatic milkers, electronic cash registers,
digital scales, calculators, credit card readers with modems, medical and
veterinary equipment. Compressed air is preferred for hammers, hydraulic
lifts, and other heavy factory equipment, just as it is in most automobile
repair shops. Air driven kitchen blenders and other equipment is used.

Not Allowed: mains electricity, clothes dryers, hair dryers, dishwashers,
air conditioners, VCR, television, general purpose computers. Radio and
telephones are used emergencies and work (weather and crop reports).

Diesel and gasoline engines are common. You often see horses drawing farm
wagons with gasoline powered threshers on board, reminiscent of the large
19th century McCormick horse drawn threshers and later steam driven
threshing machines in the U.S. and England.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 11:16:36 2001
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> Boy, I had a doozy today.  Reality-slippage big time.

Interesting, Bill!

I have another theory:  Working on my Lathe of late, I have often
noticed this phenomenon - I use the toolpost wrench and lay it down
in a handy spot on the bench.  After some related activity, I again
look for the wrench.  I scan the bench and the wrench is not in "my"
sight.  I look around the shop at other sites and, then, back at the
bench.  The wrench is there!!

Theory:  Tools we use often have images stored in our minds - perhaps
in multiple copies.  Some of these images are reversed in "polarity"
by the internal manipulations of our brains.  Now and then, when we
look for the object, our mind registers the positive incoming image
and overwrites a negative image already in the register.  The result
is an "image blank"  If we come back for a second look, the image
is properly resistered and all is reality...   :-)

Now, if this makes sense, I'll work up an explanation for Jed on the
close relationship between amperage and horsepower, etc.  another :-)

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 11:24:49 2001
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:21:34 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Test message - Amish electricity - WD-40
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Testing 1, 2, 3 . . . Is my Eudora messed up? Is this message dated Feb. 20?

Anyone, for those who are interested I twice posted a message about an 
anthropology book that discusses the Amish social policy regarding 
electricity. They use credit card readers with modems but not computers. My 
messages came out with the wrong date and were swept into the past . . .

The can of WD-40 warns it is flammable, but as far as I know once it dries 
the residue does not conduct electricity. I think it is often used to clean 
circuit boards and battery contacts.

- JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 11:41:50 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell@infinite-energy.com>
Cc: <jcarey9622 aol.com>, <etimes@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Other  Hyrogen fuel
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Yes  I agree with you mostly of what you stated below, and  I appologize for
a rather curse statement. I just wanted to get a point across.  It is a
tendency for peer reviewers to jump to conclusions  perhaps because they
have not been given all the facts about the invention or are not wiling to
gather all the information and facts like Park. I am guilty of not giving
all the facts about the neutrino voltaics technology because the 2 inventors
who have the technology are not about to reveal all the details due to
patent or confidentiality reasons to potential investors. And Jack has not
given you all the facts about their technology.  Like some cold fusion
patent applications the neutrinovoltaics patent applications have been
denied and supression tactics used. But hopefully future PO  procedures  and
supression tactics will subside for the bettermant  health of the people and
planet earth.   I know some of my comments about black heilocopters and Swat
Team raids on inventors sound a little far fetched but it is a reality. I
have heard too many reports from various inventors over the past 10 years.
I plan on reporting some of the details in our next issue. In the latest
issue of Atlantis Rising(Fighting for Alien technology by John Kettler) Jack
Shulman, CEO of American Computer Co., ACC,   who developed the transfer
capacitor, TCAP, which operates at 12-THz , ran a  4-function breadboard
programable 50 Thz calculator.(50 trillion hertz) and allows storage
densities of 90 gigabytes. ACC decided not to get a patent because it would
reveal too much to competitors.   Lockeed  and ATT are in pursuit and
perhaps have done some backengineering on some of their TCAP's installed in
a few notebook computers. And it is suspected  Lockeed has incorporated
perhaps a version of the TCAP in their TransAtmospheric Warfighter. ATT
with all its power essentially shut down ACC's business for a while and it's
many Web Sites due to the bankruptcy of North Point Communications(ACC's
provider)  along with 600,000 Northpoint DSL subscribers. ATT now claims the
TCAP as it's own.   The forced disconnect disrupted ACC only briefly, but
now  ACC alleges  the New Jersey Mafia is supressing them by extortion and
theft by buying computers and not paying for them. According to ACC the
mafia gets supression jobs perhaps form large corp's like ATT and IBM.  A
story was written in the Jan 8th, 2001 San Francisco Chronicle and printed
on line  at  www.AmericanMafia.com about their power. ACC is barely holding
its own because it has not revealed all it's trade secrets and in spite of
super advanced  covert and overt attacks by  big commercial rivals and
government interference. More details can be obtained from
CompAmericaOnline.com Web sites: www.aliensci.com and
www.roswellinternet.com  and of course get the Jul-Aug, 2001  issue No. 28
of Atlantis Rising  for the complete story  and check out
www.antlantisrising.com       Bruce   ----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; vortex-l@eskimo.com
<vortex-l eskimo.com>; etimes@teleport.com <etimes@teleport.com>
Date: Monday, June 18, 2001 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: Other Hyrogen fuel


>I explained that I have not "debunked" anything here. I merely reported my
>exchange with Jack Carey in detail, quoting him verbatim as closely as I
>can remember. Bruce Meland responded:
>
>>  Still Sounds similar to Park's tactics
>
>No, Bruce, it does not. Please stop making blanket statements without
>evidence. Here is a partial list of the differences between Robert Park and
me:
>
>1. I listed Jack Carey's e-mail address (in the message header). If he had
>not supplied his telephone number here already, I would have done so. Park
>never gives his readers a way to contact the people he critiques.
>
>2. I quoted Carey exactly and in detail, both what he wrote here, and what
>he said on the telephone. I give the reader every opportunity to see what
>the author himself claims. Park never quotes anyone directly. He
>paraphrases, deliberately distorts and ridicules the author.
>
>3. Carey has not published anything as far as I know, but if he had you can
>be sure I would list the author, title and publication. I ALWAYS provide
>footnotes. Park never does.
>
>4. I cross-check every fact, and make no assertion not backed up in the
>textbooks. Park makes up facts as he goes along, and he broadcasts ignorant
>nonsense such as the claim that you can measure magnetic field strength by
>putting sheets of paper between a magnet and a vertical metal surface.
>
>5. I read as much as I can about a subject before commenting on it, and
>that includes these claims of over-unity electrical machines. Park brags
>that he has never read a paper about cold fusion.
>
>6. Park always puts theory ahead of experiments. I put experiments first,
>but Carey says he has not performed experiments or measurements in the
>usual sense of the word. He relies upon subjective impressions such as how
>bright the lights are.
>
>In short, there is a world of difference between Park and me. If you
>continue to make this empty accusation, you will only reveal how ignorant
>you are, so I suggest you shut up.
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 11:50:45 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC Test message - Amish electricity - WD-40
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:56:03 -0400
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Hi Jed.

Thanks for the Amish info, seems the overriding theme
is "disconnect from the outside world" which as a
side effect includes most technology. The more I think
about this, the more I understand why Bruce's contact
would attempt to market to this group. I am reminded
of Joe Newman and Stan Meyers, both of whom marketed
to fundamentalist christian sects. A good way
to avoid those pesky linear educated types.

Also, what you're thinking of is contact cleaner
spray, which is mineral oil. Spraying WD40 into
electronics is a poor idea. If a circuit needs real cleaning,
more than what you can do with compressed air, consider
acetone. But for a light switch? Use the contact cleaner.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 2:22 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: OFF TOPIC Test message - Amish electricity - WD-40


Testing 1, 2, 3 . . . Is my Eudora messed up? Is this message dated Feb. 20?

Anyone, for those who are interested I twice posted a message about an
anthropology book that discusses the Amish social policy regarding
electricity. They use credit card readers with modems but not computers. My
messages came out with the wrong date and were swept into the past . . .

The can of WD-40 warns it is flammable, but as far as I know once it dries
the residue does not conduct electricity. I think it is often used to clean
circuit boards and battery contacts.

- JR


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 12:32:44 2001
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:31:48 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Interdimensional lost & found
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Frank -

>Theory:  Tools we use often have images stored in our minds - perhaps
>in multiple copies.  Some of these images are reversed in "polarity"
>by the internal manipulations of our brains.  Now and then, when we
>look for the object, our mind registers the positive incoming image
>and overwrites a negative image already in the register.  The result
>is an "image blank"  If we come back for a second look, the image
>is properly resistered and all is reality...   :-)

Reality:  As we age, our brains turn to goop.  :-)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 13:05:08 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <rhf rhfweb.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "prj" <prj@mail.msen.com>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
Subject: A Constitution: based on Ether Energies for all living Beings
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:33:57 -0700
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A Constitution: based on Ether Energies for all living Beings

The following article discusses a constitution based on the universal ether
energies for all
living beings. The following topics will be detailed: Preamble for the
Constitution,
Branches of Government, Parliament & Leadership Models & Elections, Basic
Rights of
Each Citizen or Living Being,  & Universal Ether Resonance's from which
Universal Laws
may be derived to outline the best parameters and ranges of parameters of
the
constitution.

Preamble:

All living beings come from and share the natural energies of the universal
ether. The
universal ether is tuned to natural harmonies & resonance's in nature which
encourage
living beings to live a happy life by providing  access to sufficient
quantities of natural
energies which are tuned to the  resonance patterns of the biological,
psychological, social,
and spiritual energies of each living being.   Mechanical energies or
imbalances in nature
which are not tuned to the natural energies of the universal ether can
create unhappiness
and prevent access to sufficient quantities of natural energies. In order to
maintain a
harmonious balance in nature to guarantee the best quality of life for all
living beings, the
universal ether and living beings may set up universal and local laws and
governments..

The best set of universal laws or rights which preserve the natural energies
of life, liberty,
and happiness are the basic rights of sufficient access for all living
beings to the natural
energies or resources such as privacy and security of food, shelter,
clothing, information
or knowledge, health, & environment for each individual and community.
Communities of
living beings may setup local laws which preserve their community. Each
living being in a
community has a responsibility to preserve the local laws of the community
and universal
laws of all living beings in order to live a happy life. Communities may set
up governments
and social customs which encourage living beings to be responsible citizens
of a
community.

The best set of governmental laws and structures for a local community to
establish which
encourage responsible citizens are multipolar and decentralized power
structures which
harmonize the social , & economic, and environmental relations of  living
beings and their
communities with the local and universal laws of a community and the natural
ether.

Each of the 4 Branches of Government may be as follows:
    1.Executive (Leadership & Policies & Administration of Government)
    2.Judicial (Interpretation and  Enforcement of Laws)
    3.Legislative (Creation and maintenance of Laws)
    4.Ethical (Counsel, Encouragement & Documentation of History & Social
          Customs, Manners, & Culture)

Each branch may be decentralized under the following classes of scope:
  Universal
      International Global
           National Local
                State Local
                     Community or City Local
                          Business
                          Citizen


Parliament
 Members from each of the 4 branches of government should attend parliament
to
 centralize parlimentation but each branch of government and each parliament
 should be decentralized for each community (Universal, International,
National,
 State, City, etc.) as much as possible.

Structure of Leadership & Election of Leaders
 1. 3 Top Executives for each Leadership Position rather than one top
      executive
 2. Leaders may be elected by vote to represent communities of citizens for
      each leadership position by internet web ballot for advanced
      technological societies by ballot boxes for all others.
      Issues may be voted on by internet by each citizen and each leader may
      review the votes and then decide for the best action to take or vote
      on in the parliament for advanced technological societies.

Basic rights of each citizen & community by class of rights to preserve
privacy & security
(Military, Police, Intelligence, Justice, Arms) for each citizen & type of
community:

1.Freedom of assembly of communities & citizens
2.Responsibility of citizens to other citizens, community & preservation of
     resources - merit or demerit System to maintain responsibility of
citizens
3.Freedom of Access to, Types of , and Purchase of Resources
     Access to Resources (Transportation & communications)
     Types of Resources
      Living Being Ether Energy (Spirit, Mind, Body, Environment)
           Spirit, Mind, & Body Energy
            Thoughts, Emotions, Feelings,
            Dreams, Memes, Genes, Myths,
            History, Culture, & Arts
      Environmental Ether Energy
          Technological or Mechanical Energy
          Natural Energies
          Ecology
          Atmosphere
          Food, Water & Agriculture
      Shelter & housing
      Products (clothing, Technologies)
      Employment
      Information or knowledge (Science, technology, education,
           Standards)
      Health
           Hospitals
      Arms (Self Defense, Force Fields, Energy)
4.Creation, preservation, maintenance, purchasing power of each resources
      Money, Energy, Technology, Commerce, Labor, Income(Taxes),
      Economy, Business, Banks, Employment, Population Controls, Industry,
      Transportation, and Communications.  Protection from slavery or
servitude
      to other organizations, citizens, communities, and technologies.

Universal Ether Resonance's from which Universal Laws may be derived:
The resonance's may be described in terms of classes of structures in nature
and their
energetic properties as measured in terms of Energy & Wavelength

Classes of Existence for which each energy or wavelength spectrum must be
measured and
determined:

Atom
     Electron Cloud
     Nucleus
     Electron
      Proton
     Neutron
     Positron
     Neutrino
     Muon Neutrino
     Anti Neutrion
     Anti Muon Neutrino
     Anti Proton

     Electricity (E) )
     Magnetism(B)
     Electro-Magnetic(EB) )
     Magneto-Electric(BE)
     Mechanical (Sound)
     Thermal/Pressure/Plasma/Gas/Liquid/Solid/Temperature

Elements (103)
Genes
Molecules
Cells
Complex Cells/Organs
Senses(Normal, ESP)
Feelings/Emotions/Moods
Abilities/Traits
Aura/Chakra
Spirit/Soul
Social Patterns
Social Groups
Environment
     Species
     Elements/Compounds
     Atmosphere (Gases/Plasma)
      Weather
     Plants/Stars/Solar Systems/Galaxies/Universes
     Ether
     Light(EM)Sun
     Gravity(ME) Black Whole/Edges)
Thoughts/Ideas/Culture/Myths/Dreams
Images/Geometrical Proportions/Colors
Ideal/Logical Ideas

Respectively,


President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
RHF Buisness web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productions Inc. at
http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Email: tom rhfweb.com






























From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 13:19:31 2001
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 12:26:53 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: An interesting anomaly
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At 6:56 PM 6/18/1, Dean T. Miller wrote:
>Hi Horace,
>
>On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:18:57 -0900, hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace
>Heffner) wrote:
>
>>Jones, it sounds like you are confusing commercial high voltage
>>flourescents, which are high voltage cold cathode tubes, with ordinary low
>>voltage (120 V) home flourescent lights, which have filaments at both ends
>>that are heated by the starter before voltage is applied across the tube.
>>The current is then regulated by balast and the filament heated by the
>>through-tube current.
>
>The filaments are turned off once the plasma is ignited.

The starters I have taken apart did not appear to work in this manner.  The
current was shunted either to the filaments or through the tube, but never
to both.  The filaments, of course, can not vaporize enough mercury to make
the tube work because the condensed mercury is not located on the
filaments.  It could be, however, that the shot of current through the tube
while the filaments are cooling does vaporize the mercury.


>The
>filaments serve only to vaporize the mercury inside the tube which,
>once vaporized, remains vaporized due to the running current (the
>filaments cool off).


If memory serves, the operating temperature of the filament (or hot
cathode) due to through-tube current is an important aspect of tube design,
and is set so as to permit operating at low voltage, thus permitting the
tube to operate with AC current.  Hot cathode tubes have to operate with
hot cathodes.   Mercury does not signifiantly improve the conductivity of a
cold metal surface.  Only high temperature enables good cathode emission
and low impedence at low voltages.   Too bad Robert Eachus is no longer on
the list, because he is expert in this.

Because current is very sensitive to cathode surface temperature, gas
dynamics can play a significant role in cathode conductivity, thus current
flow.  Also, gas/plasma flow patterns are set up by differing amounts of
ion flow vs neutral atom flow in various parts of the tube, which can
create dynamic light effects.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger suite224.net>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Testing 1, 2, 3 . . . Is my Eudora messed up? Is this message dated Feb. 20?...
 My
> messages came out with the wrong date and were swept into the past . . .

Whew, that's good, Jed, for a minute I thought I was temporally
deprived! :-)  Yes, mine was dated Feb. 20 .

Frank Stenger

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Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Reality:  As we age, our brains turn to goop.  :-)

Hey, you WOULD have to use Occam's razor on my theory...darn it, Rick!

Knarf Stenger

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	Basic events in mercury vapor tube using a filament:

	1]	filament is heater... this does several things:

		1a]	makes the small amount of condensed mercury on the
filament and in its immediate area tend to vaporize
		1b]	becomes mild source of electrons

	2]	auto transformer action of ballast runs the potential up
to about 300 volts and in the case of those tubes with a switch type
starter element, either inside or outside the tube, the ballast
transformer is briefly shorted or opened or otherwise subjected to a
transient ... this can cause a brief High Voltage pulse which
	3]	ionizes the gas-vapor mixture in the tube....

	4]	the ballast acts as a limiting resistance to prevent the
tube from burning up due to the low resistance [negative resistance ...
but not the free energy myth] of an ionized mercury vapor plasma.

	5]	the primary reason for the mercury is to yield a good
Ultra violet output to excite the phosphor inside the tube.   The mercury
vapor also lowers the resistance of the operating tube.

	--------

	ALL of this and many many more of the basic questions like this
can be found 
	In The Library!

	McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science and Technology.... the PAPER
ONE ... is a start or the equivalent resource suggested by the 
	REFERENCE LIBRARIAN will answer many of your questions.

-------------

	

On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 6:56 PM 6/18/1, Dean T. Miller wrote:
> >Hi Horace,
> >
> >On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:18:57 -0900, hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace
> >Heffner) wrote:
> >
> >>Jones, it sounds like you are confusing commercial high voltage
> >>flourescents, which are high voltage cold cathode tubes, with ordinary low
> >>voltage (120 V) home flourescent lights, which have filaments at both ends
> >>that are heated by the starter before voltage is applied across the tube.
> >>The current is then regulated by balast and the filament heated by the
> >>through-tube current.
> >
> >The filaments are turned off once the plasma is ignited.
> 
> The starters I have taken apart did not appear to work in this manner.  The
> current was shunted either to the filaments or through the tube, but never
> to both.  The filaments, of course, can not vaporize enough mercury to make
> the tube work because the condensed mercury is not located on the
> filaments.  It could be, however, that the shot of current through the tube
> while the filaments are cooling does vaporize the mercury.
> 
> 
> >The
> >filaments serve only to vaporize the mercury inside the tube which,
> >once vaporized, remains vaporized due to the running current (the
> >filaments cool off).
> 
> 
> If memory serves, the operating temperature of the filament (or hot
> cathode) due to through-tube current is an important aspect of tube design,
> and is set so as to permit operating at low voltage, thus permitting the
> tube to operate with AC current.  Hot cathode tubes have to operate with
> hot cathodes.   Mercury does not signifiantly improve the conductivity of a
> cold metal surface.  Only high temperature enables good cathode emission
> and low impedence at low voltages.   Too bad Robert Eachus is no longer on
> the list, because he is expert in this.
> 
> Because current is very sensitive to cathode surface temperature, gas
> dynamics can play a significant role in cathode conductivity, thus current
> flow.  Also, gas/plasma flow patterns are set up by differing amounts of
> ion flow vs neutral atom flow in various parts of the tube, which can
> create dynamic light effects.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

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Subject: solder.......Re: Interdimensional lost & found
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	This effect happens with the:

	a]	small bit of solder you JUST put down
	b]	pliers
	c]	glasses
	d]	8th access panel screw when replacing the accesss cover...

	e]	after item [d].... the part is found on the bench
	f]	after [e] you discover this is the WRONG access cover
	g]	after you put the key in the ignition you find you are in
			the WRONG automobile
	h]	Paul's Law:
	
			You can't fall off the floor

	i]	Eddies exception: 	

			
	One may occasionally fall THROUGH the floor in older buildings.


On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Francis J. Stenger wrote:

> 
> 
> William Beaty wrote:
> > 
> > Boy, I had a doozy today.  Reality-slippage big time.
> 
> Interesting, Bill!
> 
> I have another theory:  Working on my Lathe of late, I have often
> noticed this phenomenon - I use the toolpost wrench and lay it down
> in a handy spot on the bench.  After some related activity, I again
> look for the wrench.  I scan the bench and the wrench is not in "my"
> sight.  I look around the shop at other sites and, then, back at the
> bench.  The wrench is there!!
> 
> Theory:  Tools we use often have images stored in our minds - perhaps
> in multiple copies.  Some of these images are reversed in "polarity"
> by the internal manipulations of our brains.  Now and then, when we
> look for the object, our mind registers the positive incoming image
> and overwrites a negative image already in the register.  The result
> is an "image blank"  If we come back for a second look, the image
> is properly resistered and all is reality...   :-)
> 
> Now, if this makes sense, I'll work up an explanation for Jed on the
> close relationship between amperage and horsepower, etc.  another :-)
> 
> Frank Stenger
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 15:19:32 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Test message - Amish electricity - WD-40
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	If you use WD-40 to clean electrical contacts that are in a SEALED
housing...such as a submersion pump .... be sure to wait until ALL of the
stuff has evaporated before the housing is sealed up.   If not, on first
actuation WD-40 can blow up a pump switch housing very nicely... not
not-nicely.

On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Testing 1, 2, 3 . . . Is my Eudora messed up? Is this message dated Feb. 20?
> 
> Anyone, for those who are interested I twice posted a message about an 
> anthropology book that discusses the Amish social policy regarding 
> electricity. They use credit card readers with modems but not computers. My 
> messages came out with the wrong date and were swept into the past . . .
> 
> The can of WD-40 warns it is flammable, but as far as I know once it dries 
> the residue does not conduct electricity. I think it is often used to clean 
> circuit boards and battery contacts.
> 
> - JR
> 

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From: Alan Schneider <alansch zipworld.com.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: solder.......Re: Interdimensional lost & found
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:39:48 +1000
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 18:22:56 -0400 (EDT), John Schnurer
<herman antioch-college.edu> wrote:

>
>
>	This effect happens with the:
>
>	a]	small bit of solder you JUST put down
>	b]	pliers
>	c]	glasses
>	d]	8th access panel screw when replacing the accesss cover...
>
>	e]	after item [d].... the part is found on the bench
>	f]	after [e] you discover this is the WRONG access cover
>	g]	after you put the key in the ignition you find you are in
>			the WRONG automobile
>	h]	Paul's Law:
>	
>			You can't fall off the floor
>
>	i]	Eddies exception: 	
>
>			
>	One may occasionally fall THROUGH the floor in older buildings.

LOL LOL

Or when you discover to your extreme frustration and horror
that the backshell for the Centronics connector to which you 
have just finished laboriously handsoldering and heatshrink 
insulating 37 wires has mysteriously vanished from ON the
cable where you made utterly certain you put it before you
started, ... 

and reappeared on the workbench alongside it <grin>.

Note. This requires the other end of the cable to be 
immovably attached to a piece of equipment, or a moulded
connector or similar.

The phenomenon can also be described as "hole in space". A
mysterious, approximately spherical volume of space with a
diameter of around 6 - 8 inches and located between 12 and
18 inches from the tip of one's nose. ANY object placed in 
this volume is guaranteed to softly and silently vanish 
away for a random time period ranging from approximately 
1/4 second to 35 years.

Alan

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From: Alan Schneider <alansch zipworld.com.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Test message - Amish electricity - WD-40
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:43:54 +1000
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The other not-so-nice property of WD40 and similar products
when used on electronic equipment is that the oily residue 
seems to act as a dust magnet. After a few months, the 
resulting mess becomes very ugly, very difficult to remove 
and tends to be not at all helpful to the correct operation 
of the circuit.

Alan


On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 18:25:42 -0400 (EDT), John Schnurer
<herman antioch-college.edu> wrote:

>	If you use WD-40 to clean electrical contacts that are in a SEALED
>housing...such as a submersion pump .... be sure to wait until ALL of the
>stuff has evaporated before the housing is sealed up.   If not, on first
>actuation WD-40 can blow up a pump switch housing very nicely... not
>not-nicely.
<snip>
 
>> The can of WD-40 warns it is flammable, but as far as I know once it dries 
>> the residue does not conduct electricity. I think it is often used to clean 
>> circuit boards and battery contacts.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 17:50:51 2001
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From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
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June 18, 2001

Physicists Solve 30 - Year - Old Case

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 4:03 p.m. ET

Solving a 30-year-old scientific mystery, physicists have found the most
convincing evidence yet that neutrinos -- elusive subatomic particles
that were thought to have no mass whatsoever -- have a tiny wisp of heft
after all.

The finding means scientists will have to adjust their theories of the
universe.

``We're quite pleased with this result,'' said Kevin Lesko, a physicist
at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory who helped design and operate
the experiment. ``I think there are probably a lot of bets being paid
off today.''

Ever since their existence was first hypothesized by Wolfgang Pauli 60
years ago, neutrinos have been thought of as massless.

But on Monday, representatives of the Sudbury Neutrino Observatory in
Canada announced that neutrinos made by nuclear reactions in the sun's
core change from one type to another during their 93-million-mile
journey to Earth. And only particles with mass can change form.

The neutrino's mass cannot be much, around a mere billionth of a
proton's. But its mere existence has profound implications:

-- The standard model, the reigning theory in particle physics, does not
allow particles that change their flavor to have mass. So that theory
will have to be patched up -- though not discarded -- to accommodate the
new observations.

-- Because they originate deep inside the sun, neutrinos may provide an
unprecedented view of what goes on there.

-- They may not weigh much individually, but adding up all the neutrinos
in existence changes the total estimated mass of the universe -- a
figure of great interest to physicists. Neutrinos seems to account for a
small but significant fraction -- possibly up to 18 percent -- of the
mysterious ``dark matter'' in the universe that cannot be observed by
telescopes or other ordinary means.

About 100 physicists from the United States, Canada and the United
Kingdom collaborated on the Sudbury experiment. They presented their
results at a meeting of the Canadian Association of Physicists and in a
paper submitted to the journal Physical Review Letters.

Physicists have wrestled with the ``solar neutrino problem'' since the
early 1970s, when experiments detected a shortfall of the particles
coming from the sun. The neutrino shortage meant either that theories
describing the nuclear furnace at the sun's core were wrong, or that
something was happening to the particles on their way to Earth.

Monday's announcement demonstrates with 99 percent confidence that it is
the latter.

The sun produces only one type of neutrino. But there are two other
kinds that the earliest neutrino detectors could not see, and some of
the ones made by the sun turn into those other types on their way to
Earth.

Three years ago, a Japanese experiment called Super-Kamiokande came up
with indirect evidence that some of the neutrinos produced by the sun
were changing into those different types. But that experiment could not
distinguish among those types.

Now the Sudbury Neutrino Observatory has directly observed those changed
neutrinos.

Measurements taken between November 1999 and January 2001 indicate that
about 60 percent of the sun's neutrinos change.

The Sudbury observatory is a 10-story-tall cavity a mile underground in
a Canadian nickel mine. Neutrino experiments have to be performed deep
underground because at the Earth's surface a heavy rain of cosmic rays
and other high-energy particles drowns out the meek particles.

Inside the rock-hewn cavity is an acrylic tank filled with heavy water.
Most neutrinos pass through the heavy water, just as they do the rock
surrounding it. But every hour or two a neutrino collides with a heavy
water molecule, giving off a spark of light. By measuring that light,
the detector can tell that a collision occurred and determine what kind
of neutrino made it.

Copyright 2001 The Associated Press


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 19 20:06:13 2001
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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:03:47 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: reactionless drives?
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***{I'm sorry for the delay in responding to this. I have been very busy,
and it rolled up off the top of my screen. (Out of sight, out of mind. :-)
--MJ}***

>>
>>***{The best way to understand my model is to go through the description
>>line by line and state your questions and arguments. I will happily
>
>OK. I've been visualizing the etherons ( ping pong balls ) going with
>the stream. which is going down a pipe. The fluid molocules  near the
>edge of the pipe move slowly, the speed of movement increases as the
>fluid moves toward the center. I can visulaize the balls near the
>edge rotating slowly counter clockwise. The access of  their rotation
>would be perpendicular to the direction of flow. I don't see the
>balls in the center of the pipe rotating clockwise however.

***{They wouldn't rotate at all, because the counterclockwise force would
equal the clockwise force. To see why, examine the ASCII art diagram I
supplied with my post, and imagine a ping-pong ball floating at the center
of that stream. (You will have to convert it to a fixed-length font such as
Courier, in order to see the diagram correctly.) Note that the forces
impinging on the ball above the midline of the stream tend to make it
rotate clockwise and those impinging on it from below the midline tend to
make it rotate counterclockwise. Since the moments of corresponding forces
acting on the ball from opposite sides of the midline are equal and
opposite, there is no net torque. Thus it is only the balls which are *not*
in the center that experience a torque one way or the other. --MJ}***

>In your previous posts you said that the Aether flows downward into
>the poles and then is dispersed outward at the equator. Is this all
>of the aetherons?

***{By my theory, etherons are neutral, almost massless particles roughly
the size of electrons. They comprise the most large-grained aether
substrate, E1. Particles in finer-grained substrates such as E2, E3, etc.
are not what I mean when I use the word etherons. And, yes, all of these
particles are capable of flowing through the spaces between atoms, and,
thus, through the Earth. --MJ}***

I would expect them to flow through the Earth, but if I wanted to capture
them would I have to set up
>a detector at the poles or on the equator?

***{It wouldn't matter: you are swimming in them every day of your life,
just as you are swimming in the atmosphere. As for capturing them, that
seems rather hopeless, since they pass easily through matter, and, thus,
through any container. --MJ}***

As I'm sure you have
>picked up from my previous posts, my agenda is cohereing the aether
>and putting it to work. Puthoff believes that there is enough energy
>in a vacuum chamber the size of a coffee cup to vaporize all the
>oceans. Then there is my friend Daryl who believes that the energy is
>at best detectable. Where do you fall in this spectrum?

***{In my view, etherons exist as a vast sea of mutually repelling,
spinning particles, and as a consequence their energies of translation are
not very large relative to other etherons that are nearby. Thus the only
energy that could with any certainty be said to be contained in a specific
volume of vacuum would be the spin energies of the etherons. Since we can
compute the energy content of a spinning flywheel of known mass, shape, and
angular velocity, we could do the same for etherons, if we knew their
masses, shapes, angular momenta, etc., with sufficient accuracy.
Unfortunately, we don't. --MJ}***

>>  >Your theory reminds me of John E W Keeley's theories. have you seen
>>
>>***{I hadn't seen them until just now. That's some mighty strange stuff,
>>Kemosabe! :-)
>
>
>I don't know if Dale has posted Keeley's pictures of his visions of
>the atomic particles and subatomic and subsubatomic particles. If
>your interested, I'll check them out. If there not available, I can
>scan them in and email them to you

***{Forming a useful visual model of the aether is the most important issue
of physics. Unfortunately, there is such a proliferation of models, almost
all of which are utter nonsense, that I have found it to be pretty much a
waste of time to examine them. Thus while I will be happy to look over
Keeley's model if you can find a succinct presentation on a website, I
don't think you should go to the trouble to mail it to me. Instead, you
should simply introduce his ideas into this discussion, to the extent that
you believe them to be plausible. That is the most efficient way for both
of us to find out if they are worth pursuing, in my opinion. --MJ}***

>>  Anyway, for the record: all of my theories treat
>>entities/particles as fundamental, not waves. I consider waves to be a
>>manifestation of the aggregate behavior of particles. --MJ}***
>
>
>I agree
>
>>
>>
>>***{I know nothing about "Cook's drive,"
>
>
>go to www.forceborne.com for details on Cook's drive.
>
>>but I fully expect that, in the
>>future, propellers will be designed that push against the aether, thereby
>>making it possible to travel literally anywhere. --MJ}***
>
>Keeley also believed that. The story I heard is that he build a
>flying machine that levitated based on them.

***{Without a lot of supporting detail, such stories are massively
implausible, despite the fact that there are undoubted instances of
technological suppression (e.g., the Burnelli airframe, nuclear power).Thus
I must ask: if Keely's machine worked, what prevented its
commercialization? --MJ}***

This is exciting because
>there's good money to be had hauling things into stable earth orbit.
>The best rate I've heard of is a Russian Energia which costs $500 per
>pound, can you imagine the explosion in volume that would result if I
>could lower the price to say $25 per pound?
>
>I assume that you are interested in thinking about such a propeller,
>I will email Dale and see if I can get a description of it. It worked
>by combining certain vibrations.

***{I am interested, of course, but the longer an idea has been available
to the culture without being commercialized, the greater the likelihood
that it is crap. "Time wounds all heels," as they say. :-)

By the way, the best way for you to explore my aether theory is to insert
your comments within my presentation of that theory, rather than to make
comments in a stand-alone mode, as you have done here. The reason: when
your comments are by themselves, I am left in the position of guessing
which of my remarks they are in reference to. Thus if you intend to grill
me on this subject--which I don't mind--it would be far more efficient for
both of us if you were to insert your questions and comments into my
original explanations.

--Mitchell Jones}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 20 07:09:49 2001
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Subject: Summer Solstice Voluntary Rolling Blackout
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This is the first time i have seen people using electricity as a form of 
protest. It is silly and I doubt the power companies will notice, but it 
has a 1960s era charm to it. So far, I do not think Bush's energy policies 
are any worse than Clinton's. His worst idea is to drill for oil in the 
Gulf of Mexico near fragile coastlands. That will probably hurt the tourist 
business more than it helps the oil companies. Anyway, there is no shortage 
of oil.

- Jed

Summer Solstice Voluntary Rolling Blackout
June 21, 2001
7 p.m. to 10 p.m.

How many people does it take to turn out a lightbulb and make George W. 
Bush change his energy policies?

An entire international community!

In protest of George W. Bush's energy policies and lack of emphasis on
efficiency, conservation and alternative fuels, there will be a
voluntary rolling blackout on the first day of Summer, June 21, from
7 p.m. to 10 p.m. all time zones (this should roll it across the planet).

It's a simple protest and a symbolic act. Turn out your lights, unplug
whatever you can unplug in your house. Light a candle to the sungod, kiss 
and tell, make love, tell ghost stories, do something besides watching 
television, have fun in the dark. For a list of other ideas and activities, 
visit our website:

http://www.legitgov.org/protests_rollblackout.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 20 12:21:26 2001
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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:18:22 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Toyota announces progress in hybrid vehicles
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The Yomiuri newspaper reports that Toyota is pleased with the sales of the 
Prius hybrid automobile, which have reached 50,000 in Japan and 10,000 
overseas. Toyota plans to expand production of hybrid vehicles to 300,000 
per year by 2004. It announced two other initiatives

The Estima Hybrid minivan. This car will seek seven passengers and features 
four-wheel electric drive with regenerator breaking. It gets 18 km/l of 
gasoline (42 mpg), with a range of 1000 km per tank. NOx and other 
pollution is 75% below the 2000 standards. The car has a 1500 watt 100V AC 
outlet, intended for people who want to use computers or hairdryers on the 
road, but I imagine it would also be good to have during power outages. 
(Power outages are much rarer in Japan than Atlanta.)

A so-called "mild hybrid engine" compatible with existing engines. It is 
described as a "simple, easy-to-adapt hybrid system called THS-M (Toyota 
Hybrid System-Mild)." It reduces fuel consumption 15%, and reduces 
emissions to 50 percent below 2000 standards. The battery and electric 
motor accelerate from a standing stop to low speeds, when ICE are least 
effective. The electric motor acts as a generator, recharging the battery 
during deceleration, breaking and idling. It will be available as an option 
on many of Toyota's existing product line by the end of this year.

These products will only be available in Japan for the time being.

Honda announced that it sold 573 Insight hybrid electric vehicles in April 
2001. This compares with 34,044 Accords, their best-selling model. They 
have sold a total of 5419 Insights in the U.S. Worldwide sales are not 
available. Honda says it is losing money on each sale, but within a few 
years it expects to ramp sales up to 10,000 units per year and it will 
begin to clear a profit. Honda announced it will begin selling a hybrid 
version of the Civic in Japan in 2001, and in North America and Europe in 
2002. Comparing the Insight to the Toyota prius, driver reviews in the 
trade magazines and newspapers say the Prius is more like a standard 
automobile and has better performance.

No U.S. or European automaker has demonstrated or announced a production 
hybrid vehicle. The Administration's National Energy Policy mentions them 
once"create an income tax credit for the purchase of hybrid and fuel cell 
vehicles to promote fuel-efficient vehicles." As things now stand, this 
would be a subsidy for Toyota and Honda. In a few years, the Japanese 
manufacturers will be far ahead on the learning curve, and they will be 
selling standard models with a hybrid engine option, at a profit.

Sources:

Yomiuri newspaper

http://pressroom.toyota.com/

http://www.toyota.com/html/about/news/archive/press_release/environment/docs/2001/20010615_estima.jsp

http://www.insightcentral.net/sales.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 20 13:12:31 2001
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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:13:29 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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The strange structure off the coast on Yonaguni Island near
Okinawa have proved to be manmade.

http://www.summit-okinawa.gr.jp/tokusyu/ruins1.htm

The weird part is, they are over 10,000 years old.  History will
have to be rewritten because these ruins were not constructed by
a bunch of hunter/gatherers.  Discovery channel is preparing a
documentary which shows the carvings on the ancient ruins.  You
can see the images at:

http://www.enterprisemission.com/catbox.htm

about two pages down.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 20 14:17:58 2001
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Subject: Re: [OT] Yonaguni Ruins ARE Manmade
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Terry -

I can't find any other information about the images on Hoagland's 
site supposedly showing carvings on ruins off Yonaguni. I didn't see 
the Discovery channel show, and can't find any reference to the 
Yonaguni structures searching the Discovery web site.

Did you see the show oin the Discovery channel? Have you found any 
information connecting the images of the divers with the carvings 
with Yonaguni? Obviously I don't trust Hoagland as a single source of 
information.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

>The strange structure off the coast on Yonaguni Island near
>Okinawa have proved to be manmade.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 20 15:05:27 2001
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Terry -
> 
> I can't find any other information about the images on Hoagland's
> site supposedly showing carvings on ruins off Yonaguni. I didn't see
> the Discovery channel show, and can't find any reference to the
> Yonaguni structures searching the Discovery web site.
> 
> Did you see the show oin the Discovery channel? Have you found any
> information connecting the images of the divers with the carvings
> with Yonaguni? Obviously I don't trust Hoagland as a single source of
> information.

I've never seen Hoagland outright lie.  However, I agree that we
need a second source of those images.  I'll browse around.

Meanwhile, have you read about the ruins found off the coast of
Cuba recently?

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 20 19:43:15 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Toyota announces progress in hybrid vehicles
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:42:07 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:18:22 -0400:
[snip]
>The Estima Hybrid minivan. This car will seek seven passengers and features 
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Who then all win a prize? ;^)
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 20 20:08:11 2001
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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 23:12:41 -0700
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On Wednesday 20 June 2001 15:06, Terry Blanton wrote:
> Rick Monteverde wrote:
> > 
> > Terry -
> > 
> > I can't find any other information about the images on Hoagland's
> > site supposedly showing carvings on ruins off Yonaguni. I didn't see
> > the Discovery channel show, and can't find any reference to the
> > Yonaguni structures searching the Discovery web site.
> > 
> > Did you see the show oin the Discovery channel? Have you found any
> > information connecting the images of the divers with the carvings
> > with Yonaguni? Obviously I don't trust Hoagland as a single source of
> > information.
> 
> I've never seen Hoagland outright lie.  However, I agree that we
> need a second source of those images.  I'll browse around.
> 
> Meanwhile, have you read about the ruins found off the coast of
> Cuba recently?
> 
> Terry


There was a recent television special on that.  Somebody else just
HAD to see it too.  Their conclusion was that 'Atlantis' s  most likely
site was the shallow sea to the southwest off Cuba.  They claim that
That area off Cuba sank in the recent geologic past, and point to
undersea ruins and roads, etc. in the area.  There is a deep area
to the south of Cuba also.  Possible there could have been shearing
and sliding 'down the slope' toward this deep?  Do not know.
	One other thing.  If it WAS Atlantis, and that is a very big
conjecture, then another theory about their possession of 'advanced
technology'  just may be a concern inasmuch as its perception  of
validity is taken to heart by Cuban authorities who may just believe
it enough to fight to get there.  "Lets get that 'beam weapon' and
use it on the 'Yanqui Imperialistas'!".  Puts a little extra salt in
archaeology at sea in unfriendly international waters.  Suppose we
could station a couple of aircraft carrier groups their ourselves if
our government believed it too;  and arrest the Cuban boats for
suspicion of drug trade.  Why not, nobody respects the rights of
those found on international waters anymore unless they have
bigger guns or missiles.  The attitude is not all our fault.  The
British started it when they retook the Falklands from Argentina.

Standing Bear

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: An interesting anomaly
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:44:48 GMT
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Hi Horace,

On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 12:26:53 -0900, hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace
Heffner) wrote:

>The starters I have taken apart did not appear to work in this manner.  The
>current was shunted either to the filaments or through the tube, but never
>to both.  

That's correct.

>The filaments, of course, can not vaporize enough mercury to make
>the tube work because the condensed mercury is not located on the
>filaments.  

That's incorrect.  Enough mercury is vaporized so that a current
through the tube will vaporize the remainder of the mercury.

>If memory serves, the operating temperature of the filament (or hot
>cathode) due to through-tube current is an important aspect of tube design,
>and is set so as to permit operating at low voltage, thus permitting the
>tube to operate with AC current.  Hot cathode tubes have to operate with
>hot cathodes.   

The filaments are not cathodes in the same sense that vacuum tubes use
a cathode.  That is, there is a current flow between the filaments,
but since we're talking about (relatively) low voltage AC, the
electrons will be emitted, and then return to the emitting filament.

>Mercury does not signifiantly improve the conductivity of a
>cold metal surface.

Not needed.

>  Only high temperature enables good cathode emission
>and low impedence at low voltages.  

Normal fluorescent tubes have no need for the high currents that
require hot (1000 C) cathodes.

I have several old "under-counter" fluorescent fixtures that don't use
a starter -- just a 3 position switch.  IOW, the tube is manually
started.  When you push the switch into the "start" position, you can
easily see the filaments glow.  Then the switch is released into the
"run" position and the filament glow goes out (and the tube lights up
as the current flows across the tube instead of through the
filaments).

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:43:54 +1000, Alan Schneider
<alansch zipworld.com.au> wrote:

>The other not-so-nice property of WD40 and similar products
>when used on electronic equipment is that the oily residue 
>seems to act as a dust magnet. After a few months, the 
>resulting mess becomes very ugly, very difficult to remove 
>and tends to be not at all helpful to the correct operation 
>of the circuit.

Right!  Use the Caig products for electronic contacts.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 00:56:17 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Hydro Environmental Resources Inc.
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:54:57 +1000
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

Does anyone know anything about this company, other than what's on the
web? (see http://hydrogenerate.com/home.html ).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 22:30:30 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Yonaguni Ruins ARE Manmade
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Terry -

>I've never seen Hoagland outright lie.  However, I agree that we
>need a second source of those images.  I'll browse around.

Me neither (re RH lying). But he could have been pooched by someone 
giving him the photos, for instance. It does have the look of the 
Yonaguni site. I guess they're probably the real deal, but I'm 
holding off jumping in with both feet on this because this one's 
HUGE. That is NOT an asian motif, in my opinion. I also understand 
that there's no real dispute among geologists about the age of that 
area's submersion - last big ice melt 'sunk' it, not subsidence.

That 'indian' carved on the rock looks familiar in a way like 
mesoamerican carvings, but to me it doesn't look quite like the same 
style. More like some of the carvings seen in the magazine "Ancient 
American". Pretty exciting.

Hey I just checked http://www.ancientamerican.com/ - -  look at this 
month's cover!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI




>Meanwhile, have you read about the ruins found off the coast of
>Cuba recently?
>
>Terry

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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Yonaguni Ruins ARE Manmade
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SB -

>There was a recent television special on that.  Somebody else just
>HAD to see it too.  Their conclusion was that 'Atlantis' s  most likely
>site was the shallow sea to the southwest off Cuba.

I saw it. I've never thought much of Atlantis being in the 
Carribbean, my vote was for Santorini. Those murals from there that 
look like story board sketches from "Gone With the Wind" with the 
women's dresses and hairstyles etc. are too amazingly modern looking. 
Pellegrino's "Unearthing Atlantis" about Santorini is pretty 
convincing. But the old foundation work of Machu Picchu looks so much 
like the Yonaguni structures, then there's Mel Fisher find off 
southern Cuba from that show, and now that carving allegedly on the 
Yonaguni ruins make the Carribbean more interesting again. I still 
think Santorini IS the 'Atlantis' of Plato, as that Minoan culture 
clearly was a precurser to the classical Greeks, which is what Plato 
described. But read Timothy and Critias again if you need to be 
reminded that Plato also intended "Atlantis" to be a metaphor, and 
that there were other older and possibly even greater Atlantises out 
there. Like, got Mu?

Starting to like the Cuba idea, but we'll see. Add that to the deep 
water sonar images off western Cuba - things may be heating up in 
archaeology! Castro's on to it. Look at the Discovery website on 
their Cuba. He camo (lol - honest, that was a real typo for 'came', 
but I think I'll leave just it in.) out to tour the boat and visit 
with them.

Here's the Disco link:

http://www.discovery.com/area/science/cuba/cuba1.html

  - click on "meet the mystery guest".

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 02:34:58 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <rhf rhfweb.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "prj" <prj@mail.msen.com>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
Subject: Gravity Waves From Tesla Coils (A Detailed Outline)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:07:45 -0700
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Gravity Waves From Tesla Coils (A Detailed Outline)

I have summarized all my knowledge of Gravity, Weak G, Tachyeon,
Undistorted Progressive Waves (UPW= TW+LW + Residue) waves,
and other waves in relation to tesla coils. I have also listed an outline
of how to make a gravity wave from a telsa coil. I have listed the
classes of waves and wavelengths, the polarization and coherency
methods, all classes of detectors of waves, and miscellaneous
notes on nutrinos.
.

An outline of how to make faster than light gravity waves (gtw) with a
series of tesla coils or other substances such as crystals :

Light(photon/energy)>(coil/antenna/crystal polarized for EM TW waves)>
 EM TW transversed polarized wave >coil (polarized for EM LW)>EM LW
wave>coil (to combine EM TW and EM LW polarized for Time Waves
ME)>UPW (~LW+TW+residue)wave> approximate GTW wave.(time 9 x
10^16 ~ c^2 compressed or amplification polarized) >space time
curvature waves

How coils/energy transmitters/compressors  work in general:

Perfect Natural Energy (Infinite Energy + Infinite Speed (0 to Infinity),
Blackwhole, Edge of Universe,LightSquared,Time Energy,Mind,Cyrstal
Dense, Sacred Geometric,Pyramid Power,Sun/Light(Photon(3D+Time),
quantized jumps of space energy and time energy(ME,EM, TIME
Energy)>wave/freq>transmitter>Mechanical Energy by vibrating a substance
(atom(subatomic particle), ion, element, gas, molecule, metal plate) of x
radius
which can have 3 vibrators (x,y,z,time) polarized by 180 to -180 degrees and
spiraled clock or counter clock wise, 4 Polarization's(x,y,z, time)(no
polarization in any direction frozen polarized)>a series of multiple
mirrors/coils
to amplify/compress energy/freq with certain polarization's>energy
wave>receiver


Polarization:(Angular Momentum)
4 Polarization's of Photons(Time & Space Energy) in 4 Space(x,y,z,t)
Space Polarized(x,y,z)
 x-horizontal transverse strong TW polarized(180 (slant)to 0 to (slant)-
  180 degrees)
 y-vertical longitudinal weak LW polarized
 z-circular(spiral(clock/counterclockwise(negative polarization))
  Time-polarized

Coherency
 Coherent in phase even waves - laser = dense, logical, closer, ant-
  aging
 Incoherent = out of phase not even waves normal light?= not dense,
  illogical, aging

Wavelengths:
Mechanical Energies
C(Light 10^10)
     Sound
     ElectroMagnetic(Transverse Wave (TW)(E) + Longitudinal Wave
         (LW)(B))
     Laser(Continuous Wave (CW) or Pulsed Wave (PW)
C^2(10^20 or greater)
 Undistorted progressive waves (upw= imperfect LW with TW residues
      remaining)
 Only imperfect UPW can be physically (mechanical) made and which
 travel slower  than light and faster than light and energy varies over a
 great range. When two UPW waves interfere at a distance then and em
 energy arises out of space time.


Perfect Natural Energies(Black holes, Mind, Sun, Light,
Crystals/Dense/Sacred
Geometric/Pyramid Power C & C^2 (10^20 or greater))

ElectroMagnetic(x(horizontal E polarized),y (vertical B polarized)) (C =
 10^10)
MagnetoElectric:(y, vertical B polarized, Time Polarized)(C^2 or greater
    10^20)
 Graviton   10^-50m
 Weak Gravity   10^-56m
 Time Energy more dense
  than light or energy 10^-56 to -1000m
  Tachyons)(Nested SpaceTime Curvatures (Inside
        out/Outside In))
 Cosmic Rays   10^-1000(infinity)to 10^-13m

Detectors

Time wave detectors (d/dt)
Space Wave Detectors (L^3)
Heavy Water 10^-15
SQUID
Pressure/Volume/Plasma/Sound
Scintillators Elements  10^-10m
Thermal Detectors   10^-5 to 10^-9m
Photovotaic   10^-5 to 10^-6m
Photocunductive FILM 10^-5 to 10^-7m
Phototubes   10^-5 to 10^-6m
Lasers Pulsed Or Continuous Waves with atoms, ions, and molecules 10^-5 to
 10^-6
 Gas, Crystals Power>Anode>Cathode>
     Crystal/Gas/Element surrounded by a mirror wrapped in a coil>Laser
      (.4 x 10^-6m)
 ND:YAG/Glass .53
 RAMAN
 RUBY   .69
 Alexandrite  .72 -.8
 GA:AS   .85 - .9
 TI:Saphire  .68-1.13
 ND:YAG, ND:Glass 1.06 x 10^-6m
 HO:YAG  2.06
 DY:CaF  2.35
 HF   2.6-3.0
 DF   3.4-4.0
 CO2   6
    10 x 10^6
Optical Filters 10^-1 to 10^2m
 Magnesium Oxide
 Zino Sulfide
 Zino Selenice
 Cadmium Telleride
 Germanium
Polarized Antennas:(x,y,z,time) Sum of Ex and Ey Fields = Polarization
 Antennas of different polarization transmit different power ratios
 Polarization(pie,2pie,4pie,6pie)
  Ratio of Ey to Ex  (0, 1/2, 1 ,2, Infinity)
  Phase angle between electric fields Ex, Ey
   (-180 degrees to 0 to 180 degrees)
  Clockwise/CounterClockwise
   Horizontal (x) 90 degrees
   Vertical(y) 90 degrees
   Slant (z) 45 degrees to 135 degrees
   Circular(clockwise/counterclockwise)
    Spiral
    Elliptical
 Antenna plates at different angles to each other to get all polarization's
 Negative Polarization's

Neutrons
Fission, Fusion, Uv, Nuclei, High Energy Charged Particle Accelerator(1 to
10
MEV(Number of  Neutrons/second  10^10 to 10^14, Neutrons/Second
(Portable)10^7 to 10^10) > Polonium, Plutonium Radkium>Protons>
Quarks>Neutrons>Degenerate (Half Life 13 minutes) into Proton, Beta,
Nutrino

Types of Neutrons
 Free Neutron
  Fast Neutron  Energy above 100,000 EV
  Intermediate
  Slow Neutrons Energy below 1EV
  Neutrons at Room Temperature .025 EV
Neutron Flux = Neutron Density x Neutron Velocity= Neutrons/Sqaure
 Meters/Second
Neutrons may be captured by Boron 10 isotope


Respectively,


President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
RHF Buisness web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productions Inc. at
http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Email: tom rhfweb.com

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The EM waves set up in a Resonant Cavity should mimic the Gravitational Fields
produced by the sub-atomic particles/quarks in matter.

Therefore with proper phasing/modes the resulting field can be used to attract or
repel a mass in the vicinity of the cavity, or change the local index of refraction to
"cloak" itself, thus causing optical illusions regarding it's maneuvering.

For instance a bullet (mass)  approaching the cavity in the repel mode can be stopped
"dead in it's tracks" and/or sent back to it's source with a kinetic energy higher
than it had
originally.

It will can work against laser beams except in space.

I'll start experiments on this when I'm not too busy. :-)

Regards,  Frederick

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Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Hey I just checked http://www.ancientamerican.com/ - -  look at this
> month's cover!

Yeah, here's a little more information on that article from
Streiber's site:

http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=540

Guess I'll check out the Dreamland archives for 5/19/01.

Terry

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Subject: JCF-3 call for papers
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CALL FOR PAPERS: The 3rd Japan Meeting on Nuclear Reactions in Solid (JCF3)

Dear JCF members and CF-research colleagues:

     The research activity on nuclear-reactions-in-solid (cold fusion) 
grows steadily in Japan. Since the last meeting (JCF2) at Hokkaido 
University, we have been informally aware of new progresses on detection of 
excess heat, neutrons, He-4, X-rays and "transmuted" products, from several 
groups, and of innovative proposals on theoretical models and analyses. The 
International Conference ICCF9 is now scheduled on May 19-24, 2002, in 
Beijing China (http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn/iccf9.htm). So the JCF3 
meeting on October 25-26, 2001, at Yokohama National University, will 
provide us good occasion of summarizing and discussing Japanese (and 
including possibly some of over-sea activities) activities in the field to 
make further progress toward ICCF9.

Place of JCF3 Meeting: University Hall of Yokohama National University,
                                   Tokiwadai 79-5, Hotogayaku, Yokohama, Japan

Date: October 25-26, 2001

Topics: nuclear products, excess heat, low energy nuclear reactions, 
fusion, fission, materials, experimental techniques, theories, CF politics, 
etc.

Presentation: oral presentation (English or Japanese) in 20-25 min per paper

Abstract dead-line: September 10, 2001 ( send via attached file in e-mail 
to (mohta newjapan.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp) or usual mail, to JCF-desk, 
Takahashi laboratory, Department of Nuclear Engineering, Osaka University, 
Yamadaoka 2-1, Suita, Osaka, Japan

Abstract style: 1-2 pages, A4 format in free style, write in English
                       Title, names (mark presenter), affiliation, keywords 
(4-5),
                       main sentences, figures, tables, references

Registration: on Meeting site in the Morning of October 25, 2001
registration fee: 5,000 yen
banquet: 5,000 yen

Inquiry to the Local Organizing Committee: to
     Prof. Kenichiro Ota, Yokohama National University
     e-mail: ken-ota ynu.ac.jp
     tel: 81-45-339-4021

Inquiry to JCF office: to
     Akito Takahashi, Osaka University
     e-mail: akito nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp
     tel: 81-6-6879-7890

------------------------------------------------------------------

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This conference was mainly in Japanese last time. It was low key but very 
impressive. This time I expect there will be some papers from Takahashi and 
Mizuno on a new technique for generating neutrons. It is highly 
reproducible. It has no practical use, but apparently it tells the 
theorists something about the reaction. I hope that Infinite Energy will 
have space to publish a paper about it in the next issue. Attached is the 
title and abstract.

- Jed



Neutron evolution from a palladium electrode by alternate absorption 
treatment of deuterium and hydrogen

Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadashi Akimoto, Tadayoshi Ohmori , Akito Takahashi , 
Hiroshi Yamada and Hiroo Numata

Abstract

We observed neutron emissions from palladium after it absorbed deuterium 
from heavy water followed by hydrogen from light water. The neutron count, 
and duration of the release, and the time of the release after electrolysis 
was initiated all fluctuated considerably. Neutron emissions were observed 
in five test cases out of ten. Compared to experiments in which only 
deuterium was absorbed, repeatability was good and the neutron count was high.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 08:40:55 2001
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***{I found the following gem on sci.physics.fusion this morning. --MJ}***

> I have discovered a way that enables a $10,000 cold fusion generator
> to supply all a typical house needs for 10 years and that can be
> improved.  The saftey features need to be done right.  I need VCs,
> skilled engineers, and mathematicians and physicists to flesh out my
> physics theory and make a home generator that is first of all safe
> from fire (a bit complicated -- but doable).  Anyway, and I kid you
> not, the last week has been very hard for me.  I think maybe Enron
> hired a team of Assassinns to kill me and my friends so they won't
> lose billions of dollars.  Yesterday alone there were several attempts
> on my life.  My friends and I are smart but we are getting tired and
> may lose our lives soon.  But, if not -- energy independence is doable
> but some companies will lose billions.  I never knew so many big
> companies are more thatn willing to hire assassinns :-(
>
> Kevin Brent Pryor

***{Quickly turning to Enron's most recent annual report, I noted an
asterisk near the entry for "operating costs." Flipping to the back, I
found the associated footnote, which read as follows:

"Operating costs for fiscal year 2000 were 82% higher than in 1999
primarily due to an unexpected increase in the fees charged by assassins."

So there you have it! :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 09:55:57 2001
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Subject: Wired: Energy Net article
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The July 2001 issue of Wired magazine has a pretty good article about the 
electric power distribution network. The article is also available online at:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.07/juice.html

This describes research at EPRI and elsewhere. The "intelligent" power 
networks described here would be a lot more efficient than what we have 
now, but it would cost a lot, so I hope that CF or some other anomalous 
energy source will make the technology unnecessary.

Some people have suggested that small CF generators might be tied together 
in a smart network, to share electricity, but I see no economic 
justification for this. I predict it would cheaper by far to install all of 
the power capacity you need at each house, shopping mall and factory. Years 
ago I said sharing CF electricity would be impractical, like timesharing 
personal computers for profit. Lo and behold, there is now a market 
developing for this very thing -- personal computer timeshare applications. 
The best known example is donated free computer time. See:

http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu.

Perhaps I was wrong about PCs and I will be wrong about shared CF capacity, 
but I still think it would not be worth the cost of maintaining the power 
network just to move a few megajoules across town. The Internet serves many 
purposes besides allowing PC timesharing, and it is worth keeping even if 
timesharing turns out to be uneconomical or unworkable for most 
applications. The only reason to maintain the electric power distribution 
network in a CF world would be to share electricity, and I doubt that would 
be cost-effective. The electric power network components are much larger, 
more expensive and dangerous than Internet hardware components.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 13:41:23 2001
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Here is a $22 billion corporation involved in "alternative" conventional 
energy. In the last few years it has dumped its nuclear power and large, 
central generator production. It is now concentrating on distributed wind, 
micropower, and so on. See:

http://www.abb.com/

Select "New Center, Alternative Energy"

It is a shame we cannot interest a company like this in CF. From time to 
companies of this size contact me, but as far as I know they never follow 
through.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 13:50:37 2001
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Fellow Vortexians;

As I have previously mentioned, about 1 part in 1,000,000 of the 
anticipated energy the observed C F reactions is expressed as heat. 
Finding the missing energy is critical to changing C F from a 
laboratory curiosity to an industrial process. It has been suggested 
that the missing energy is being expressed as neutrinos. Perhaps this 
site can shed some light on the problem of detecting them.
>
>Subject: [svpvril] Polar Etheric Stream Switches Polarizations
>
>This article offers evidence eminations from the Sun (Celestial 
>Forces) changes
>polarization and other vibratory configurations BETWEEN the Sun as Source and
>Earth as Receptor. This phenomena coincides with some of Russell's views. DP.
>
>Source: Queen's University (http://www.queensu.ca )
>
>Date: Posted 6/19/2001
>
>First Results From The Sudbury Neutrino Observatory Explain The Missing Solar
>Neutrinos And Reveal New Neutrino Properties
>
>June 18, 2001 -- Physicists from Canada, the U.K. and the U.S. are today
>announcing that their first results provide a solution to a 30-year 
>old mystery
>* the puzzle of the missing solar neutrinos. The Sudbury Neutrino Observatory
>(SNO) finds that the solution lies not with the Sun, but with the neutrinos,
>which change as they travel from the core of the Sun to the Earth.
>
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/06/010619071559.htm
>
>--
>Life, Love and Laughter,
>Dale Pond
>Sympathetic Vibratory Physics
>Sacred Science - Sacred Life
>http://www.svpvril.com
>SVP Discussion Forum:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svpvril/
>
>Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos.
>
>Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com.
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 15:01:26 2001
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Coffee Can Resonant Cavity: Antigravity Device?
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:59:29 -0500
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The Tanita 5 kg electronic scale that arrived today is setting idle while I conjure up
a way to send a current pulse down through a 2 LB coffee can (empty) to see if the can
will act as a resonant cavity, and show an AG force on the scale.

I think the "Hula Hoops" were the wrong configuration, Terry.

If the G field is the result of time-dilated (due to accelerated frame phenomena)
currents around
the theorized String Circles/Quarks, getting the EM field in the proper alignment wrt
the Earth is required for getting measurable force effects.

Any thoughts on whether or not this thing will "ring" as a resonant cavity, while I
order up a 300 amp plus, solid state rectifier and a transformer?

OTOH, Keith and Frank have some capacitor banks in-house.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 15:46:42 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Resonant Cavitys & Force Fields
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:44:59 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:34:56
-0500:

>The EM waves set up in a Resonant Cavity should mimic the Gravitational Fields
>produced by the sub-atomic particles/quarks in matter.
[snip]
So now all you need to do, is turn the air around your craft into a
plasma sheath, and the entire interior can be one big resonant cavity.
:)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 15:49:27 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gravity Waves From Tesla Coils (A Detailed Outline)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:48:12 +1000
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In reply to  Thomas D. Clark's message of Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:07:45
-0700:

>Gravity Waves From Tesla Coils (A Detailed Outline)
>
>I have summarized all my knowledge

buzzword, buzzword, buzzword...fill in buzzword here...


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 15:57:58 2001
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: Resonant Cavitys & Force Fields

Robin wrote:


> In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:34:56
> -0500:
> 
> >The EM waves set up in a Resonant Cavity should mimic the Gravitational Fields
> >produced by the sub-atomic particles/quarks in matter.
> [snip]
> So now all you need to do, is turn the air around your craft into a
> plasma sheath, and the entire interior can be one big resonant cavity.
> :)

Good idea,but where do you sit?

Regards,  Frederick
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 18:30:45 2001
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Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> The Tanita 5 kg electronic scale that arrived today is setting idle while I conjure up
> a way to send a current pulse down through a 2 LB coffee can (empty) to see if the can
> will act as a resonant cavity, and show an AG force on the scale.

> Any thoughts on whether or not this thing will "ring" as a resonant cavity, while I
> order up a 300 amp plus, solid state rectifier and a transformer?

Wait a minute, Fred - I have a complete microwave oven power circuit
that puts out about about 400 watts of S-band power at a wavelength
of what, maybe 5 inches?  This pile-O-power weighs just 3.52 Kg -
just right for your scale.  The output is a 1/4 wave stub antenna
which would mount nicely to any flat-bottom cavity.  All you need
is a 120 volt zip cord for power and you're all set!
If you can come up with maybe a cylindrical re-entry type cavity
that could be tuned by varying the length of a small internal
cylindrical stub, I would guess the cavity could be made to resonate
to the point of destruction of the magnetron - if so desired.
We need about a 1 Kg cavity to stay in your scale's range.

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 18:42:24 2001
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:48:00 -0700
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Francis J. Stenger wrote:
> 
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> > The Tanita 5 kg electronic scale that arrived today is setting idle while I conjure up
> > a way to send a current pulse down through a 2 LB coffee can (empty) to see if the can
> > will act as a resonant cavity, and show an AG force on the scale.
> 
> > Any thoughts on whether or not this thing will "ring" as a resonant cavity, while I
> > order up a 300 amp plus, solid state rectifier and a transformer?
> 
> Wait a minute, Fred - I have a complete microwave oven power circuit
> that puts out about about 400 watts of S-band power at a wavelength
> of what, maybe 5 inches?  This pile-O-power weighs just 3.52 Kg -
> just right for your scale.  The output is a 1/4 wave stub antenna
> which would mount nicely to any flat-bottom cavity.  All you need
> is a 120 volt zip cord for power and you're all set!
> If you can come up with maybe a cylindrical re-entry type cavity
> that could be tuned by varying the length of a small internal
> cylindrical stub, I would guess the cavity could be made to resonate
> to the point of destruction of the magnetron - if so desired.
> We need about a 1 Kg cavity to stay in your scale's range.

You'd better put a circulator and a load in or you won't have much time
to tune it.

I know how to tuna fish; but, how do ya tune a coffee can?

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 19:36:32 2001
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Terry Blanton wrote:
> 

> You'd better put a circulator and a load in or you won't have much time
> to tune it.

We could put a chocolate-chip cookie inside?  Better, tap off a
short coax line and load it with a small lightbulb.  Then, we could
monitor the bulb to see when we got near  resonance?
(Where am I getting this "we" stuff??)

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 20:11:20 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Resonant Cavitys & Force Fields
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:57:03
-0500:
[snip]
>> So now all you need to do, is turn the air around your craft into a
>> plasma sheath, and the entire interior can be one big resonant cavity.
>> :)
>
>Good idea,but where do you sit?
[snip]
Well, that could be a bit of a problem...how about a metal cocoon in the
middle?

How much AG force could one expect anyway?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 20:12:41 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Coffee Can Resonant Cavity: Antigravity Device?
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:11:26 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <0pd5jts6v3fu24g4l5g3rk7au1batl4f8l 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:48:00 -0700:
[snip]
>I know how to tuna fish; but, how do ya tune a coffee can?
[snip]
By cutting out the bottom, and turning it into a false bottom that can
slid up through the can to alter the volume.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 20:13:58 2001
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Resent-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:13:38 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Coffee Can Resonant Cavity: Antigravity Device?
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:13:03 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <srd5jtk6ac7k2jqdoghejh97q7ktg2l735 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Francis J. Stenger's message of Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:29:59
-0400:
[snip]
>Wait a minute, Fred - I have a complete microwave oven power circuit
>that puts out about about 400 watts of S-band power at a wavelength
>of what, maybe 5 inches? 

Aren't the microwaves going to fry the scale electronics?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 21 23:48:58 2001
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:48:11 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Resonant Cavitys & Force Fields
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There's a guy over on JLN's list who built a gizmo with a microwave 
magnetron. It guides waves down into spherical cavities. Got the 
plans off some grain field in England! Really. Says it works too, has 
some small weight loss that heating and buoyancy can't account for. 
Chris Hardeman's the name, here's the link:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/gravshld.htm

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 00:01:25 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Fw: Resonant Cavitys with corrections
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:59:12 -0500
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Subject: Re: Resonant Cavitys with corrections

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 00:13:52 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <00d901c0fa46$60f50920$948f85ce computer> <p4u4jto4bq7fjig5n6n2nvu3rtp4s33d2f@4ax.com> <011c01c0fa9d$1e419d80$948f85ce@computer> <3gd5jto23hl96nv2u1rl83rmp79h93or92@4ax.com> <v04210101b7589958a0c9@[192.168.123.2]>
Subject: Re: Resonant Cavitys & Force Fields
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 01:12:32 -0500
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: Resonant Cavitys & Force Fields

Rick wrote:


> There's a guy over on JLN's list who built a gizmo with a microwave 
> magnetron. It guides waves down into spherical cavities. Got the 
> plans off some grain field in England! Really.

You gotta go with whatever crops up, Rick.   :-) 

>Says it works too, has 
> some small weight loss that heating and buoyancy can't account for. 
> Chris Hardeman's the name, here's the link:
> 
> http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/gravshld.htm

Neat site, and very interesting tie-in to the
String-Circle Particle Theory.

Regards,  Frederick
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 08:20:16 2001
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:19:14 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC R.I.P. John Lee Hooker
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Blues guitarist John Lee Hooker died on June 21, at age 83. He was one of 
the last and greatest Mississippi Delta guitarists. He was taught by his 
stepfather, William Moore, and by Blind Blake, Blind Lemon Jefferson and 
Charley Patton. He ran away from home and began performing at age 14, and 
continued until he was 81. His songs such as "Boom Boom" are among the most 
haunting and beautiful melodies of the 20th century, in my opinion. 
Regarding the role of the blues in American popular culture, I agree with a 
columnist in the Knickerbocker Magazine, who wrote in 1845:

	Who are our true rulers? The Negro poets, to be sure. Do they
	not set the fashion, and give laws to the public taste? Let one
	of them, in the swamps of Carolina, compose a new song, and
	it no sooner reaches the ear of a white amateur, than it is written
	down, amended (that is, almost spoilt), printed, and then put
	upon a course of rapid dissemination, to cease only with the
	utmost bounds of Anglo-Saxondom, perhaps with the world.
	Meanwhile, the poor author digs away with his hoe, utterly
	ignorant of his greatness.

	- quoted by Eileen Southern, U.S. author. The Music of
	Black Americans (1971)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 08:44:48 2001
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:43:50 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Enron market value falls by half
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Enron is a major player in the California energy crisis and it has close 
connections to the Administration. Enron mainly produces electricity and 
gas. It has one of the largest investments in U.S. wind power and wind 
turbine manufacturing, but that is only a small percent of its energy 
portfolio. Along with many other companies, it has lately lost a ton of 
money trying to sell fiber optic bandwidth. The market value of the Enron 
has fallen by half, to $30 billion, since peaking in August 2000. See:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/06/22/BU178338.DTL

http://www.wind.enron.com/

This is another indication that the California energy crisis will not 
benefit energy companies in the long term. I predict a tremendous glut in 
electricity in the next few years. California power consumption has dropped 
11% compared to this time last year, so I cannot understand why the 
"crisis" continues, and why the power companies still issue warnings that 
rolling blackouts may be needed.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 09:52:52 2001
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:51:14 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Gravity Waves From Tesla Coils (A Detailed Outline)
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>Gravity Waves From Tesla Coils (A Detailed Outline)
>
>I have summarized all my knowledge of Gravity, Weak G, Tachyeon,
>Undistorted Progressive Waves (UPW= TW+LW + Residue) waves,
>and other waves in relation to tesla coils. I have also listed an outline
>of how to make a gravity wave from a telsa coil.

I assume that you mean, you are going to use the Tesla coil to 
produce a gravity wave.

>I have listed the
>classes of waves and wavelengths, the polarization and coherency
>methods, all classes of detectors of waves, and miscellaneous
>notes on nutrinos.

Hum, that sounds interesting.

>wave>coil (to combine EM TW and EM LW polarized for Time Waves

This is the first time I've heard time referred to as a wave.

>10^16 ~ c^2 compressed or amplification polarized) >space time
>curvature waves

This is also the first time I've heard of space time curvature waves

>
>How coils/energy transmitters/compressors  work in general:
>
>Perfect Natural Energy (Infinite Energy + Infinite Speed (0 to Infinity),
>Blackwhole, Edge of Universe,LightSquared,Time Energy,Mind,Cyrstal
>Dense, Sacred Geometric,Pyramid Power,Sun/Light(Photon(3D+Time),
>quantized jumps of space energy and time energy(ME,EM, TIME
>Energy)>wave/freq>transmitter>

Talk about a collection of words, what does this all mean?

>Mechanical Energy by vibrating a substance
>(atom(subatomic particle), ion, element, gas, molecule, metal plate) of x
>radius
>which can have 3 vibrators (x,y,z,time) polarized by 180 to -180 degrees and
>spiraled clock or counter clock wise, 4 Polarization's(x,y,z, time)(no
>polarization in any direction frozen polarized)>a series of multiple
>mirrors/coils
>to amplify/compress energy/freq with certain polarization's>energy
>wave>receiver

Ok, I can visualize that
>
>Polarization:(Angular Momentum)
>4 Polarization's of Photons(Time & Space Energy) in 4 Space(x,y,z,t)
>Space Polarized(x,y,z)
>
>   Time-polarized

Hum, I wonder what that all means

>
>Coherency
>  Coherent in phase even waves - laser = dense, logical, closer, ant-
>   aging

is that anything like anti-aging? Is this anything like time reversal?

>  Incoherent = out of phase not even waves normal light?= not dense,
>   illogical, aging

illogical, eh?

>
>  Only imperfect UPW can be physically (mechanical) made and which
>  travel slower  than light and faster than light and energy varies over a

Slower than light I understand, but faster than light, that's a trick!

>Perfect Natural Energies(Black holes, Mind, Sun, Light,
>Crystals/Dense/Sacred
>Geometric/Pyramid Power C & C^2 (10^20 or greater))

More words

>be captured by Boron 10 isotope
>
>Respectively,
>
>President, Thomas Clark

This posting doesn't make much sense to me either Thomas. What's the 
bottom line? Have you built any machines that produce any real 
effects?





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 09:54:46 2001
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:52:07 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Wind turbine inertial energy storage
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Here is something new. Wind turbines can now be used to store energy, as 
well as generate it. Some power companies have hesitated to build wind 
farms because the output varies unpredictably, and cannot be increased on 
demand. The latest technology may actually help smooth overall network 
fluctuations, by storing excess grid energy for brief periods. See:

http://www.wind.enron.com/Brochures/EW_15.pdf

QUOTES

Storing wind power:

The energy of a gust is stored by accelerating the rotor. This leads to 
reduced loads, improved transmission efficiencies and performance. (Graph 
shows power output steady while rotor speed changes.)

Storing grid power:

Dynamic Reactive Power and Voltage Support (DVAR). Enron Wind 's patented 
Dynamic VAR Control (TM) option provides support to local grid voltage, 
improving transmission efficiencies and providing the utility grid with 
reactive power (VARs)to increase stability. Enron
Wind technology, outfitted with its patented dynamic VAR control option, 
can automatically help maintain defined grid voltage levels and/or 
deliver/consume reactive power to/from the utility. This feature is 
particularly beneficial with weaker grids or larger turbine installations.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 12:39:57 2001
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Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
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This came as a surprise.  :-)

It looks like Gravitation is tied up in Relativistic Electrodynamics phenomena.

FJS

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------=_NextPart_000_00EA_01C0FB20.761CD460--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 16:38:27 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <rhf rhfweb.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
Subject: Polarization Technologies For Gravity Waves (Arrays of Know How)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:11:25 -0700
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X-Status: 

Polarization Technologies For Gravity Waves (Arrays of Know
 How)

I have listed below an outline of arrays of know how that I am
researching to understand how to detect and generate gravity
waves and new forms of energy from polarizing antennas,
gyroscopes, magnetometers, directed energy beams, and 
computer polarizing algorithms. If you have any 
recommendations please send me an email. 

Descriptions of Arrays of Know How (U.S. Military 1994?)

Magnetic Sensors
 Fluxgate sensors & Magnetometers
 One gamma root mean square per root hertz
  for signal frequencies of 1 hertz and above.
  One gamma = 10^-9 tesla.
 Nonmagneto materials and electrical components
 Polarization electronics and methods for controlling
  polarizing current for phase enhancement and
  termination(proton magnetometers).
 Counting circuits for resonance frequency readout, and
  for use of reference oscillator, and digital  
  filtering and averaging to  improve sensitivity
  better than 0.1 gamma and reading rates of faster
  than 5 per second. Obehouse  proton   
  magnetometers.
 Solenoidial or torodial magnetic coils for noise and  
  interference reduction (proton magnetometers)
 Fluids used as a free radical to impart polarization to
  hydrocarbon fluids to achieve signal output
 Pumping lamp with proper metal filling, associated  
  exciting coil, and control of 
  plasma discharge modes (optically pumped  
  magnetometers.)
 Heating coils for alkali metal cells, and for heating coils
  that minimize the interference
  with magnetic fields to be measured (optically
  pumped magnetometers.)
 Combinations and orientations of resonance cells, and
  methods of signal summation
  (optically pumped magnetometers)
 Resonance magnetic sensing systems, sensitivities  
  greater than  a gamma and data
  sampling rates of greater than 2 per second,  
  nonmagnetic electronic components, , electronic
  techniques and computer software compensation
  of motion induced signals.
 Calibration and compensation techniques, nonmagnetic
  materials and electronic components, and
  techniques for compensating and negating the
  effects of stray magnetic fields generated by  
  nearby materials and electronic components. 
 Superconductive magnetic sensing devices
  super conductive thin film structures which  
  exhibit the Josephson effects and when 
  incorporated into suitable superconductive  
  circuits, can provide magnetic flux sensitivities
  of less than 10^-18 webers rms per root hertz
  (or 10^-4 of a magnetic flux quantum) for 
  signal frequencies below 10 hz or process a  
  magnetic sensitivity of 10^-28 joules/Hz.
 cryogenic magnetic sensors
 Noise reduction designs, structures, and circuitry.
 Fiber optic wave guides with magnetostricitive  
  transducer elements 10^-11 tesla sensitivity
  and 10^-7 Gauss.
 Fiber optic magnetic sensors with compensated  
  temperature and pressure variations
 Detection methods for use with fiber optic   
  interferometric and polarimetric magnetic field
  sensors with compatible, high sensitivity  
  detection methods that permit discrimination  
  against environmental and instrumental noise at
  frequencies below 10hz.
 Gravity meter and gravity gradiometer   
  technology(Better than 100 microgals(.1  
  milligal))
 Supercondicting gravity gradiometers
 Modeling and analysis of objects
  Characterization of object cross section as a  
   function of size, frequency, shape, scatter
   matrix, and polarization properties.
  Modeling of electromagnetic interference of any
   kind. 
  Simulation and modeling of object classification
   techniques incorporating
   synthetic aperture radar (SAR) and  
   inverse SAR change/motion detection.
  Modeling and design and integration techniques
   Pulse compensation
   Statistical Sampling Technique
   Frequency Agility
   Frequency modulation
   Polarization modulation
   Pulse Doppler techniques
   Parametric analysis and automatic  
    performance routines
   Built in test and remote maintenance and
    fault tolerance isolation.
   Techniques for development and  
    implementation of distributed and
    netted sensor systems
   Artificial intelligence and neural network
    analysis and processing  
    techniques.
   Pattern recognition techniques
    Antenna Technology
   Beam agile array antennas
   Polarizaing antennas
   Negative resistance antennas
   Wide beam electronically steerable arrays
    of antennas
   Narrow beam fast scanning antennas
   Doppler beam sharpening coherent  
    processing techniques
   Motion compensation techniques
   Antennas with electronically adaptive
    pattern control with sidelobe
    cancelors
   Algorithms and software for antennas
    Near field surface reflection
    Energy propagation through  
    media
  Signal intercept receiver technology
   Signal  processing utilizing digital  
    coherent integration
    for Fast Fourier Transform (FFT)
   Target enhancement (detection in clutter)
   Synthetic  Aperture
   Doppler Beam Sharpening
   Digitally phased array beam-forming  
    radars
   Wave form replication and analysis
   Frequency hoping modulations
   Instantaneous bandwidth spread- 
    spectrum techniques
   Phase array and multibeam antenna  
    control and processing logic
   Spectrum analyzers
   Directed energy absorbing and reflecting 
    materials 
  Nutrino amplification technologies
   Nutrinovotalic devices put out 1200  
   watts
   Convert nutrinos to electicity
   Magnetic motors and solid state devices
   that trap nutrinos
  Sperical Harmonics

Respectively,


President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
RHF Buisness web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productions Inc. at
http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Email: tom rhfweb.com

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***{The following story was passed on by my brother-in-law. --MJ}***

> Two old ladies were outside their nursing home, having a smoke, when it
> started to rain. One of the ladies pulled out a condom, cut off the end,
> put it over her cigarette, and continued smoking.
>
> Lady 1: What's that?
> Lady 2: A condom. This way my cigarette doesn't get wet.
> Lady 1: Where did you get it?
> Lady 2: You can get them at any drugstore.
>
> The next day, Lady 1 hobbles into the local drugstore and announces
> to the pharmacist that she wants a box of condoms. The guy looks at her
> kind of strangely (she is, after all, over 80 years of age), but politely
> asks what brand she prefers.
>
> Lady 1: It doesn't matter as long as it fits a Camel.
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <rhf rhfweb.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
Subject: New devices to block out DEW and Gravity DEW
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:12:03 -0700
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New devices to block out DEW and Gravity DEW

I have enclosed below an updated list of jammers, shields, and
deflecting technologies, generators, and detectors  which may
be used to detect and block out directed energies such as
gravity waves and all other forms of directed energies. I have
also enclosed a list of arrays of know how that I am researching
to develop new force fields, jammers, and energy technologies
at the end of this email.

Shielding
 Sound
  Metal incased with up to 3 inches of vacuum in
   it
  Vacuum TV tubes
  Vacuum Thermistors
  Florescent light bulbs placed in a wood container
  Jamming Noise Cancellation Technologies
   White Noise (Random Noise)
   
 Electrical and Electromagnetic
  Metal
  Tachyeon Shield
   The web site www.trufax.org has some
   articles on DEW technologies and a
   device that can help absorb some of the
   energies that may come from DEW
   (Takyon Transform Technology (T1  
   Takyon Capsule, R1 Field Radiator,
   which can be ordered from P. Gutierrez,
   P.O. Box 1026, Toledo, Washington
   98591.

  Portable frequency generators & jammers
   Rotary spark gap oscillator
   A high voltage transformer supplies  
   power to  the L/C tuned
   circuit which is tuned to a variation of
   the frequency or frequencies 
   you want to jam. Tune it to 100 KHz of
   the frequencies you want to 
   jam. The device will generate an  
   extremely wide bandwidth at a  
   variation of frequencies.
   12V power source>Ultra high energy
   radiation plasma generator   
   transformer>spark gab   
   oscillator>capacitor 1>tuned inductor
   coil  L1>tuned inductor coil   
   L2>antenna.
   Different gauges of wire for the coils  
   change the distance and the frequency
   you jam.

  Force Fields
  Metal plates with a capacitor and electrified to 
   absorb energy waves.
  Energy and heat sinks - heater, cooler, water,
   Ceramic superconducting material is 
   Yltrium-barium-copper oxide cooled 
   with liquid nitrogen
  Clothing and fabrics made of metals like copper
  or mu metal.
  Powerful magnets which create levity anti- 
   gravity force fields and rejuvenate the
   body to heal with vital aether energies. 
  Plastics
  Water
 Gravity Waves/Cosmic Rays/Subatomic Particles
  Ceramics
  Crystals
  Plastics 4 feet
  Force fields Tesla, Antigravity
   Gyroscopic generators
   Mind Psychokenesis
  Rotating Metals, Stones, Crystals or ceramics
  Clothing and fabrics made of crystal fibers
  Powerful magnets and rotating magnets
  Magnetism, rotation, and superconductors can
  work together to effect gravity. 
  Superconducting ceramic suspended in a  
  magnetic field of three electric coils
  all enclosed in a low temperature vessel spinning
  at 5000 rpm.
   Ceramic superconducting material is Yltrium-
  barium-copper oxide cooled 
  with liquid nitrogen
 Antigravity forces
  Levity which pushes up from the Earth at the
  same time that  gravity pushes down, and  
  normally the downward force is stronger
   than the upward. Some of aether flows into the
  vortex whirlpool  but some of it that creates  
  matter will be re-radiated back 
  out of the object in the opposite and reverse  
  direction. Oppositely levity force of aether.  
  Enhance the upward flow 
  of the levity in a laser like fashion. 
  Rotating device pulls in the ether and redirects it

Energy Detectors and Generators
Time wave detectors (d/dt,time t)
 Magnetometers with gyroscopes to polarize for time
 energy fields?

 Flux Capacitor Time Travel Circuit
 27 volt source>charging switch(SPST)>G1 25 ohm
 rheostat(future control)>C1 1200 picoF 50 volt
 electrolytic>piezeolectric transducer  (value
 uncritical)>G2 switch (SPST) and 1M-ohm
 potentiometer forpast control>G3 (same as G2). G1  and
 G2 could be rheostats instead of potentiometers.

Space Wave Detectors (L^3, Space(x,y,z))
 Subatomic Particle  Detectors
  Bubble Chambers
  Scintillators (Element Material)
  Rotating gyroscopic polarizing antennas
   gyroscopes rotating on an axis
   gyroscopes rotating in a ball
   gyroscopes controlled by a computer  
   program
   
  Neutrinos - Heavy Water in a tube deep  
  underground with lenses to amplify, neutrinos
  interact with heavy water to produce a  
  proton and a flash of light. 
  Heavy Water 10^-15

  Neutron gun
   Quartz glass germicidal UV lamps in  
   standard fluorescent tube   
   configurations(4ft, 40 watt T12)  
   and surrounded by a Boron tube spaced
   to allow for annular volume filled with
   D  at atmospheric pressure may act
   as a source of neutrons stripped from
   deuterons.
 
  SQUID
  Pressure/Volume/Plasma/Sound
  Scintillators Elements  10^-10m
  Thermal Detectors   10^-5 to 10^-9m
  Photovotaic   10^-5 to 10^-6m
  Photocunductive FILM 10^-5 to 10^-7m
  Phototubes   10^-5 to 10^-6m
  Lasers Pulsed Or Continuous Waves with atoms,
   ions, and molecules 10^-5 to 10^-6
  Gas, Crystals Power>Anode>Cathode>
  Crystal/Gas/Element surrounded by a mirror  
   wrapped in a coil>Laser(.4 x 10^-6m)
  ND:YAG/Glass .53
  RAMAN
  RUBY   .69
  Alexandrite  .72 -.8
  GA:AS   .85 - .9
  TI:Saphire  .68-1.13
  ND:YAG, ND:Glass 1.06 x 10^-6m
  HO:YAG  2.06
  DY:CaF  2.35
  HF   2.6-3.0
  DF   3.4-4.0
  CO2   6 10 x 10^6
  Optical Filters 10^-1 to 10^2m
  Magnesium Oxide
  Zino Sulfide
  Zino Selenice
  Cadmium Telleride
  Germanium

 UV Detectors [0.010 to 0.3 Micrometers]
  Visible Band [0.4 to 0.8 Micrometers]
  Infrared Band [0.8 to 30.0] Micrometers
  Acoustic Sensors
 Fiber Optic Sensor

  Doppler shift detectors
  Measures velocity by measuring the shift in  
  frequency of a wave cuased by an object in  
  motion. For a closing relative velocity, the wave
  is compressed and the frequency is increased.
  For an opening relative
  velocity the wave is stretched and the frequency
  is decreased. Doppler 
  frequency is proportional to 2x the transmitted
  frequency. Higher rf = Doppler
  shift. Frequency Doppler FD=(2 x Velocity of
  Target Vt)(f/c). For moving Doppler
  devices FD=2x(VRadar+Vtarget)(f/c),  
  FD=(Vradar+2Vtarget+VMissile)(f/c),
  FD=2(VRadar CosPCosQ)(f/c), where p and q
  are the radar scan azimuth and
  depression signals. Two way radar = Frequency
  received Fr=Fxmt+FD=Fxmt+
  2(Vxmtr+Vtarget)fxmt/c where fxmt =  
  frequency of x motion traveled? At 10GHz, 
  FD = 25 hz per Knot, 19Hz per kilometer  
  Hour,67 Herz per m/sec, 61 Hz per yd/sec, 
  20Hz per ft/sec. To estimate FD for other  
  frequencies multiply the above by fxmt  
  (GHz)/10. One way radar= f    
  recieved=fxmt+fD=fxmt+Vxmtr or Rec fxmt/c.
  Closing velocity = Radar
  velocity cos(a)+Target velocity cos(b).

 Audio Doppler
 Radar Doppler
 Light Doppler
 Gravity Doppler

Infrasound below 20 Hz
 Ultrasonics above 20 KiloHertz
 Ultrasonic and infrasonic lasers
Police Radar, Satellite, 
 Through the Wall Imaging Technologies
  Microwave radar signals between 30GHz
  and 300 GHz
 Microwave leak detectors 3 GHz detection's
Microwave sensors up to 300 GHz
Thermal Infrared Imaging Systems

Weather Control Detectors and Generators
 HAARP and Orgon Tubes for Weather Control
 Scalar Interferrometers or scalar electromagnetics
 Heating of areas of atmosphere to produce balls
 of light, lightening, and weather. 
  Heat
  Low Pressure
  High Pressure
  Steer Jet Streams
  Weather potential is a swirling vortex stream of
   bi-directional multivectorial entities.
   Steering weather by divergence of energy
   from the potential is a scalar. 
   W(total number of joules of energy  
   collected by the charge q)
   = (3space point Potential PHI(x,y,z)  
   joules per columb)q(number of diverging
   collecting columbs) Dr. Evans, AIAS,
   Whittaker scalar interferometery.

Antennas

Polarization:(Angular Momentum)
4 Polarization's of Photons(Time & Space Energy) in 4
Space(x,y,z,t)
Space Polarized(x,y,z)
x-horizontal transverse strong TW polarized(180 (slant)to 0 to
 (slant)-180 degrees)
y-vertical longitudinal weak LW polarized
z-circular(spiral(clock/counterclockwise(negative polarization))
 Time-polarized

Coherency
Coherent in phase even waves - laser = dense, logical, closer,
 ant-aging
Incoherent = out of phase not even waves normal light?= not
 dense, illogical, aging

Polarized Antennas:(x,y,z,time) Sum of Ex and Ey Fields =
 Polarization
Antennas of different polarization transmit different power
 ratios 
Polarization(pie,2pie,4pie,6pie)
  Ratio of Ey to Ex  (0, 1/2, 1 ,2, Infinity)
  Phase angle between electric fields Ex, Ey
   (-180 degrees to 0 to 180 degrees)
  Clockwise/Counter Clockwise
   Horizontal (x) 90 degrees
   Vertical(y) 90 degrees
   Slant (z) 45 degrees to 135 degrees
   Circular(clockwise/counterclockwise)
    Spiral
    Elliptical
Antenna plates at different angles to each other to get all
polarization's
Negative Polarization's

Negative Index of refraction antennas:
 Fiberglass plates with copper squares in them in the
 form of cross plates
 or perpendicular plates. Can be used to focus and detect
 light to small wavelengths.
 University of California, San Diego, Physicist Sheldon
 Schultz, David Smith, & Richard Shelby.

Modulation

 Frequency modulation FM
 Phase modulation PM
 Amplitude modulation AM
 Tone modulation TM,
 Time and space polarization 
 modulation PLM.
 Hypnosis rhythmic patterns Modulation
 PK psychokinesis modulation
 Bioplasmic modulation


Descriptions of Arrays of Know How (U.S. Military 1994?)

Magnetic Sensors
 Fluxgate sensors & Magnetometers
 One gamma root mean square per root hertz
  for signal frequencies of 1 hertz and above.
  One gamma = 10^-9 tesla.
 Nonmagneto materials and electrical components
 Polarization electronics and methods for controlling
  polarizing current for phase enhancement and
  termination(proton magnetometers).
 Counting circuits for resonance frequency readout, and
  for use of reference oscillator, and digital  
  filtering and averaging to  improve sensitivity
  better than 0.1 gamma and reading rates of faster
  than 5 per second. Obehouse  proton   
  magnetometers.
 Solenoidial or torodial magnetic coils for noise and  
  interference reduction (proton magnetometers)
 Fluids used as a free radical to impart polarization to
  hydrocarbon fluids to achieve signal output
 Pumping lamp with proper metal filling, associated  
  exciting coil, and control of 
  plasma discharge modes (optically pumped  
  magnetometers.)
 Heating coils for alkali metal cells, and for heating coils
  that minimize the interference
  with magnetic fields to be measured (optically
  pumped magnetometers.)
 Combinations and orientations of resonance cells, and
  methods of signal summation
  (optically pumped magnetometers)
 Resonance magnetic sensing systems, sensitivities  
  greater than  a gamma and data
  sampling rates of greater than 2 per second,  
  nonmagnetic electronic components, , electronic
  techniques and computer software compensation
  of motion induced signals.
 Calibration and compensation techniques, nonmagnetic
  materials and electronic components, and
  techniques for compensating and negating the
  effects of stray magnetic fields generated by  
  nearby materials and electronic components. 
 Superconductive magnetic sensing devices
  super conductive thin film structures which  
  exhibit the Josephson effects and when 
  incorporated into suitable superconductive  
  circuits, can provide magnetic flux sensitivities
  of less than 10^-18 webers rms per root hertz
  (or 10^-4 of a magnetic flux quantum) for 
  signal frequencies below 10 hz or process a  
  magnetic sensitivity of 10^-28 joules/Hz.
 cryogenic magnetic sensors
 Noise reduction designs, structures, and circuitry.
 Fiber optic wave guides with magnetostricitive  
  transducer elements 10^-11 tesla sensitivity
  and 10^-7 Gauss.
 Fiber optic magnetic sensors with compensated  
  temperature and pressure variations
 Detection methods for use with fiber optic   
  interferometric and polarimetric magnetic field
  sensors with compatible, high sensitivity  
  detection methods that permit discrimination  
  against environmental and instrumental noise at
  frequencies below 10hz.
 Gravity meter and gravity gradiometer   
  technology(Better than 100 microgals(.1  
  milligal))
 Supercondicting gravity gradiometers
 Modeling and analysis of objects
  Characterization of object cross section as a  
   function of size, frequency, shape, scatter
   matrix, and polarization properties.
  Modeling of electromagnetic interference of any
   kind. 
  Simulation and modeling of object classification
   techniques incorporating
   synthetic aperture radar (SAR) and  
   inverse SAR change/motion detection.
  Modeling and design and integration techniques
   Pulse compensation
   Statistical Sampling Technique
   Frequency Agility
   Frequency modulation
   Polarization modulation
   Pulse Doppler techniques
   Parametric analysis and automatic  
    performance routines
   Built in test and remote maintenance and
    fault tolerance isolation.
   Techniques for development and  
    implementation of distributed and
    netted sensor systems
   Artificial intelligence and neural network
    analysis and processing  
    techniques.
   Pattern recognition techniques
    Antenna Technology
   Beam agile array antennas
   Polarizaing antennas
   Negative resistance antennas
   Wide beam electronically steerable arrays
    of antennas
   Narrow beam fast scanning antennas
   Doppler beam sharpening coherent  
    processing techniques
   Motion compensation techniques
   Antennas with electronically adaptive
    pattern control with sidelobe
    cancelors
   Algorithms and software for antennas
    Near field surface reflection
    Energy propagation through  
    media
  Signal intercept receiver technology
   Signal  processing utilizing digital  
    coherent integration
    for Fast Fourier Transform (FFT)
   Target enhancement (detection in clutter)
   Synthetic  Aperture
   Doppler Beam Sharpening
   Digitally phased array beam-forming  
    radars
   Wave form replication and analysis
   Frequency hoping modulations
   Instantaneous bandwidth spread- 
    spectrum techniques
   Phase array and multibeam antenna  
    control and processing logic
   Spectrum analyzers
   Directed energy absorbing and reflecting 
    materials 
  Nutrino amplification technologies
   Nutrinovotalic devices put out 1200  
   watts
   Convert nutrinos to electicity
   Magnetic motors and solid state devices
   that trap nutrinos

Respectively,


President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
RHF Buisness web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productions Inc. at
http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Email: tom rhfweb.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 17:32:09 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: An interesting anomaly - update
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:31:12 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <36o7jt8h394bju8vlebelr9ik1mi2bm8p4 4ax.com>
References: <v01530500b7556546d981 [12.21.211.100]> <3b32a39e.199227754@mail.midiowa.net>
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Hi,

Well here is the first update. I turned off the light, and removed the
tube, then used a pair of needle nose pliers with insulated grip to
rotate the end "sockets" in the fitting so that they would make contact.
I then measured the voltage between  each slot of each end socket of the
lamp (4 slots in all) and the tap on the bath (connected to the water
system ground).
With the power off, I measured a low AC voltage of 1-3 volts at one end
of the fitting, and at the other end, nothing in one slot, and about 115
volts in the other slot. With the power turned on, that same slot
measured 240 V (which is the supply voltage here in Australia).

Note the tubes have two pins on each end, and at at least one end, a
glowing filament that continues to glow when the lamp is operating
normally (I can't see anything at the other end because of the phosphor
coating inside the glass).

New measurements to be done upon completion of laundry :).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Enron market value falls by half
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:38:54 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:43:50 -0400:
[snip]
>electricity in the next few years. California power consumption has dropped 
>11% compared to this time last year, so I cannot understand why the 
>"crisis" continues, and why the power companies still issue warnings that 
>rolling blackouts may be needed.
[snip]
A large part of the drop in consumption is probably due to the rolling
blackouts, rather than due to any drop in demand.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 17:47:19 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:46:27 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:37:20
-0500:

>This came as a surprise.  :-)
>
>It looks like Gravitation is tied up in Relativistic Electrodynamics phenomena.
>
>FJS
Hi Fred,

I read somewhere that 400 MHz is also about the frequency at which our
brain cavities resonate. Maybe gravity wave communication is behind
telepathy? :)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 18:25:29 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jun 22, 2001
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:20:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 22 Jun 01   Washington, DC

1. FLASH!  BUSH IS RUMORED TO HAVE CHOSEN A SCIENCE ADVISOR.  You
may recall that back in March the President reactivated PCAST,
the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology,
with Silicon Valley venture capitalist Floyd Kvamme as co-chair. 
The other co-chair was to be the White House Science Advisor, but
there was no Science Advisor, even as the President waded into
deep water on global warming and missile defense.  But today, it
is all over Washington that Jack Marburger, an APS member and the
Director of Brookhaven National Laboratory, has accepted the job. 

2. DEFINING SCIENCE: WHY DO CATTLEMEN WEAR HIGH BOOTS?  A bill to
define science, HR3344, is under consideration in the Oregon
Senate.  The definition is taken directly from a statement titled
"What is Science?" adopted two years ago by the APS Council.  The
principal support for the bill is from the Oregon Cattlemen's
Association.  But why, I can hear you asking, are the cattlemen
concerned with how science is defined?  You may want to step
carefully as we attempt to walk through that barnyard:  There is
a move in Oregon to clean up its streams, and cows   well, you
know what cows do.  Anyway, the cattlemen want to counter the
peer-reviewed scientific arguments of environmentalists.  In the
words of a spokesman for the OCA, "Currently, anyone can define
what will be called science... The term `peer-reviewed science'
could mean a review by a neighbor or friend."  Squish!

3. BUDGET SURPLUS?  FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS FORCED TO BORROW.
How quickly can black ink turn red?  It seems like only yesterday
that a big problem was figuring out how to spend the projected
surplus in federal revenue.  Some suggested that, since advances
in science and technology were largely responsible for the
booming economy, it would make sense to put some of the surplus
back into research.  Instead, we got a tax cut.  Now, a story
from Bloomberg News says the government may be forced to borrow
to pay for the scheduled tax rebates.  It was too good to last.

4.  ENERGY POLICY: DO THE DEEDS MATCH THE WORDS?  On Thursday,
Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham testified for the first time
before the House Science Committee.  The committee wanted an
explanation of apparent discrepancies between the commitment to
conservation, alternative energy sources, and increased
efficiency in the National Energy Policy, and administration cuts
in research and development programs that might move us toward
these ends.  As Chair Boehlert (R-NY) noted, "the deeds don't
match the words."  To this, Secretary Abraham explained that
there was a gap between the time the budget was submitted and
development of the National Energy Policy.  Since one does not
drive the other, incongruities exist.  Has the administration
sought amendments to the budget request to smooth out these
incongruities?  In this case, the words do match the deeds: nope. 

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 18:33:42 2001
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Message-ID: <01C0FB4A.2FED0CB0.dequickert ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Enron market value falls by half
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:35:52 -0700
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On Friday, June 22, 2001 5:39 PM, Robin van Spaandonk  wrote:
> A large part of the drop in consumption is probably due to the rolling
> blackouts, rather than due to any drop in demand.

Actually the blackouts have been few, and short in duration -- so could not 
possibly account for a significant fraction of 11% decline in use.


Dan Quickert (in California)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 18:43:59 2001
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Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:42:54 -0500
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?



> Hi Fred,
> 
> I read somewhere that 400 MHz is also about the frequency at which our
> brain cavities resonate. Maybe gravity wave communication is behind
> telepathy? :)

470 to 476  MHz  is the UHF TeleVision channel 14.

Have you seen any used car commercials in your dreams? :-)

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 20:54:14 2001
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Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:57:14 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
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At 01:37 PM 6/22/01 -0500, you wrote:
>This came as a surprise.  :-)
>
>It looks like Gravitation is tied up in Relativistic Electrodynamics 
>phenomena.
>
>FJS
Fred:

For several years now I have ben playing with a conjecture involving this. 
I have not had the skills on the sub atomic level to be able to put 
together a mathematical solution.  There are others that also believe that 
G is an electromagnetic side effect of the atom.  A wholistic explanation 
could take the mystery out of many processes that go on un understood.

My conjecture also has some problems that have prevented me form going 
forward.  Like I was unable to fathom the apparent existence of the neutron 
as a mass.

Ahh but I am only an electrical engineer.  I teach myself physics as time 
permits.   I do find it interesting that you arrived at a Z 377 ohms  (the 
exact impedance for a pi circular radiating element.)  This is more then 
coincidence?   IF this is true I think you could attenuate G with a simple 
bowel shaped superconductor like a hunk of chain link fence will attenuate 
a cell phone signal.   This could be experimental proof.
Charlie Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net 

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 22 22:05:22 2001
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:00:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Prospecting for Uranium
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Do any of you have any experience at uranium prospecting? What would be the
best equipment to use? Any specific recommendations? --MJ
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 01:26:22 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Prospecting for Uranium
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 18:25:11 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:00:58
-0500:

>Do any of you have any experience at uranium prospecting? What would be the
>best equipment to use? Any specific recommendations? --MJ
[snip]
Yes, get in touch with Bruce Perreault, who has already done it.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 03:12:39 2001
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Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Ford" <cjford1 yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?

Charles Ford wrote:


> At 01:37 PM 6/22/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >This came as a surprise.  :-)
> >
> >It looks like Gravitation is tied up in Relativistic Electrodynamics
> >phenomena.
> >
> >FJS
> Fred:
>
> For several years now I have been playing with a conjecture involving this.
> I have not had the skills on the sub atomic level to be able to put
> together a mathematical solution.  There are others that also believe that
> G is an electromagnetic side effect of the atom.  A wholistic explanation
> could take the mystery out of many processes that go on un understood.

For starters Charles, with electron beams as the electrons
approach the velocity of light c, instead of diverging, the repulsive force F =
kq^2/r^2  between the electrons diminishes as though they start to attract each other.
This is similar to running currents in the same direction in parallel wires. IOW with
relativistic effects, charge flow and magnetism(and probably G) are indistinguishable.
This is borne out in particle accelerators such as the Continuous Electron Beam
Accelerator Facility (CEBAF) at Jefferson Lab, www.jlab.org where the hair-thin
electron beams are moving so close to c (~ 12 GeV ) that the relativistic mass of the
electrons is such that they weigh
more than 12 times as much as a proton or neutron.

What I was getting at, is that the gravity force seems to be an Intrinsically
Attractive Force that comes about by way of the relativistic mechanisms of the
sub-atomic particles.
>
> My conjecture also has some problems that have prevented me form going
> forward.  Like I was unable to fathom the apparent existence of the neutron
> as a mass.

Whew.  :-) The mass is there. Remember, a neutron decays to a proton, and an electron,
and a neutrino.
>
> Ahh but I am only an electrical engineer.

Most of the stuff I've used to put together the String-Circle (or Wave-Circle)
"Model". was gotten from older
EE texts.  :-)
>  I teach myself physics as time
> permits.
That's the best way, otherwise you could become an aesthetic or a philosopher.

> I do find it interesting that you arrived at a Z 377 ohms  (the
> exact impedance for a pi circular radiating element.)  This is more then
> coincidence?

No coincidence, the intrinsic impedance of the aether (uo/eo)^1/2 is also 377 ohms.

>  IF this is true I think you could attenuate G with a simple
> bowel shaped superconductor like a hunk of chain link fence will attenuate
> a cell phone signal.   This could be experimental proof.

Gravity shielding with chicken wire, Charles? Hmmm   :-)

Best,    Frederick
> Charlie Ford
> KC5-OWZ
> cjford1 yahoo.com
> cjford1 swbell.net
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 04:35:06 2001
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Message-ID: <003901c0fbda$0b3d8f80$ae92cbc1 pc>
From: "Noel Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: ceramic engines
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:45:46 +0100
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------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C0FBE2.6C8C7960
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I was searching the web re the above and finally decided -what am I =
doing - Ask my friends and collegues in Vortex!

Can anyone give me some pointers on where to find manufacturers of =
Ceramic Engines ( Single or twin cylinder types) in the smaller sizes ( =
1 to 5 HP) I am getting nowhere .
Or components such as ceramic pistons/ Cylinders.-small sizes 25 to 50mm =
dia.

Am I correct in understanding that some manufacturers make High pressure =
washers with the above ? or do they use a Swashplate type system ot ABC =
-like model aircraft engines ( Alloy/Brass/Chrome) in their rotary to =
Linear configuration.?

Who has investigated the pros/cons of -for a given bang ! is it better =
to convert by crank and con rod to rotary motion or is a swashplate =
capable of working in reverse ?

Any help appreciated.
_______________________________________________________
Noel D. Whitney
Quantum Leap Limited
52 Watson Road,
Killiney,
Co Dublin,
Ireland.
Tel: 00 353 1 2854626
why not visit our website at: www.quantumleap.ie

------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C0FBE2.6C8C7960
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I was searching the web re the above =
and finally=20
decided -what am I doing - Ask my friends and collegues in =
Vortex!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can anyone give me some pointers on =
where to find=20
manufacturers of Ceramic Engines ( Single or twin cylinder types) in the =
smaller=20
sizes ( 1 to 5 HP) I am getting nowhere .</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Or components such as ceramic pistons/=20
Cylinders.-small sizes 25 to 50mm dia.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Am I correct in understanding that some =

manufacturers make High pressure washers with the above ? or do they use =
a=20
Swashplate type system ot ABC -like model aircraft engines ( =
Alloy/Brass/Chrome)=20
in their rotary to Linear configuration.?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Who has investigated the pros/cons of =
-for a given=20
bang ! is it better to convert by crank and con rod to rotary motion or =
is a=20
swashplate capable of working in reverse ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Any help appreciated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>_______________________________________________________<BR>Noel =
D.=20
Whitney<BR>Quantum Leap Limited<BR>52 Watson Road,<BR>Killiney,<BR>Co=20
Dublin,<BR>Ireland.<BR>Tel: 00 353 1 2854626<BR>why not visit our =
website at: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.quantumleap.ie">www.quantumleap.ie</A></FONT></DIV></B=
ODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C0FBE2.6C8C7960--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 07:29:21 2001
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 <v04011700b759d28c0005 [207.8.127.129]>
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:22:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Prospecting for Uranium
Resent-Message-ID: <"MET_71.0.SZ2.eUADx" mx1>
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:00:58
>-0500:
>
>>Do any of you have any experience at uranium prospecting? What would be the
>>best equipment to use? Any specific recommendations? --MJ
>[snip]
>Yes, get in touch with Bruce Perreault, who has already done it.

***{Thanks Robin. I mucked about with a search engine for awhile, and found
http://www.nuenergy.org/overview.htm. The contact address given was
nuenergy cyberportal.net, which I assume will take an e-mail to Bruce
Perreault. Does that sound right to you? --MJ}***

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 12:42:24 2001
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:41:10 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Prospecting for Uranium
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I was reading the other day that if you grind up 100 tons of granite 
and process it you can recover 5 pounds of uranium. I had no idea 
that it was so plentiful.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 14:29:18 2001
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:24:15 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Prospecting for Uranium
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>I was reading the other day that if you grind up 100 tons of granite
>and process it you can recover 5 pounds of uranium. I had no idea
>that it was so plentiful.

***{Yup, I've read that lots of places. Here's one of them:

"Uranium is found in small quantities in granite, which is one of the
principal rock materials. If the rich deposits of uranium were used up, it
would be economically feasible to recover it from granite; the mining
operation would be of the same magnitude as present coal-mining operations
and would provide sufficient energy for billions of years." [*Concepts of
Nuclear Physics*, by Bernard Cohen, pg. 407]

Bottom line: we ain't ever gonna run out of uranium, regardless of the
future availability of fossil fuels. (This civilization may collapse due to
lack of *access* to nuclear energy, of course--e.g., thanks to the mindless
crusades of the green Nazis--but that's another kettle of fish altogether.)

--Mitchell Jones}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 15:59:08 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 08:57:53 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 23 Jun 2001 04:10:36
-0500:
[snip]
>>  IF this is true I think you could attenuate G with a simple
>> bowel shaped superconductor like a hunk of chain link fence will attenuate
>> a cell phone signal.   This could be experimental proof.
>
>Gravity shielding with chicken wire, Charles? Hmmm   :-)
[snip]
There may be more to this than you think. Some of the newer optics
devices consist primarily of little "posts" separated by the wavelength
of the light with which they are designed to interact. Perhaps strange
effects would obtain if the same were done at the gravity wavelength?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 16:04:48 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: An interesting anomaly - final
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 09:03:49 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <oq7ajt0500p1hhs2fpcriqrr9spc7k96f7 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Robin van Spaandonk's message of Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:31:12
+1000:
Last night when the effect occurred again, I repeated the measurements, 
and this time the high voltage contact measured line voltage.
This leads me to the conclusion that I have a switch that is correctly
wired, though leaks a low current at all times, and when moist leaks
sufficient to induce a weak light in the tube.
Because the DVM has a high impedance, it was able to measure the voltage
in both cases.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 16:06:29 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ceramic engines
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 09:05:31 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <v28ajt87ohkge9kg4voivtjv173h2er9kj 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Noel Whitney's message of Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:45:46 +0100:

>I was searching the web re the above and finally decided -what am I doing - Ask my friends and collegues in Vortex!
>
>Can anyone give me some pointers on where to find manufacturers of Ceramic Engines ( Single or twin cylinder types) in the smaller sizes ( 1 to 5 HP) I am getting nowhere .
[snip]
As far as I know no one has yet succeeded in getting this technology to
the point where it is a commercial proposition. IOW I think you are
looking for something that doesn't exist.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 17:32:35 2001
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Standing waves for mass reduction effects
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More Standing wave gravity nullification claims:

http://www.electrogravity.com/index16.html

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?

Robin wrote:

> Charles Ford wrote:

> In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 23 Jun 2001 04:10:36
> -0500:
> [snip]
> >>  IF this is true I think you could attenuate G with a simple
> >> bowel shaped superconductor like a hunk of chain link fence will attenuate
> >> a cell phone signal.   This could be experimental proof.
> >
> >Gravity shielding with chicken wire, Charles? Hmmm   :-)
> [snip]
> There may be more to this than you think. Some of the newer optics
> devices consist primarily of little "posts" separated by the wavelength
> of the light with which they are designed to interact. Perhaps strange
> effects would obtain if the same were done at the gravity wavelength?

True. Butt, "Bowel Shaped Superconductors" are stretching things a bit.   :-)

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 18:57:06 2001
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Subject: Re: Standing waves for mass reduction effects
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 7:31 PM
Subject: Standing waves for mass reduction effects

Rick wrote:


> More Standing wave gravity nullification claims:
>
> http://www.electrogravity.com/index16.html
>

Thanks for posting this, Rick.

In the mid 80s I had some ideas along similar lines, and
former astronaut "Deke" Slayton, head  of Space Services Inc. in Houston, sent an
engineer up to go over them.

I don't know whether or not they ever got around to doing any experiments though.

Regards,  Frederick
>
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 19:01:38 2001
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93-043.DOC


Barbara Schwartz June 13, 1993
RELEASE: 93-043

MERCURY ASTRONAUT DONALD K. "DEKE" SLAYTON DECEASED

Donald K. "Deke" Slayton, 69, one of the United States' original seven =
astronauts selected by NASA for the Mercury Program in 1959, died=20

June 13, 1993, of complications of a brain tumor.

Born March 1, 1924, in Sparta, Wi., Slayton flew as Apollo docking =
module pilot for the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project in 1975, a joint United =
States-Soviet Union space flight that culminated in the first and only =
meeting to date in space of astronauts and cosmonauts. Slayton was named =
by NASA as an astronaut in April 1959, and was originally scheduled to =
pilot the Mercury-Atlas 7 mission, an assignment that was later changed =
due to a diagnosed heart condition. The mission was subsequently flown =
by M. Scott Carpenter in May 1962.

Slayton went on to become chief of astronaut activities in September =
1962 and was responsible for the operations of the astronaut office. In =
November 1963, he resigned a commission as an Air Force Major to become =
Director of Flight Crew Operations for NASA, responsible for directing =
activities of the astronaut office, aircraft operations office, flight =
crew integration division, crew training and simulation division, and =
crew procedures division.

In March 1972, Slayton was restored to full flight status and certified =
eligible for space flight following a review of his medical status by =
NASA's director of life sciences and the Federal Aviation =
Administration. His fellow crew members for Apollo-Soyuz were Thomas P. =
Stafford and Vance D. Brand.


- more -

- 2 -
In December 1975, Slayton became manager for the Space Shuttle Program's =
Approach and Landing Test Project. As manager, Slayton directed the =
project, which included five landings by the test orbiter Enterprise, =
dropped from a carrier airplane to simulate the final 20,000 feet of a =
shuttle landing. The project checked out the shuttle's flight control =
systems and evaluated its subsonic flying qualities.

>From November 1977 through February 1982, Slayton was manager of the =
Space Shuttle's Orbital Flight Test Project, directing preparations for =
and overseeing operations of the first two shuttle missions. His =
responsibilities included scheduling, mission configuration, mission =
readiness reviews, postflight mission evaluations and ferry operations =
with the 747 Shuttle Carrier Aircraft.

Slayton retired from NASA in February 1982. At the time of his death, he =
served as president of Space Services, Inc., Houston, and as a =
consultant to several aerospace corporations, among other positions.

Among the orginal seven astronauts, Slayton was preceded in death by =
Virgil I. "Gus" Grissom, killed in an Apollo spacecraft fire on the =
launch pad Jan. 27, 1967. Slayton is survived by his wife, Bobbie, and =
son, Kent.

Slayton entered the Air Force as an aviation cadet, receiving his wings =
in April 1943. During World War II, he flew 56 combat missions over =
Europe as a B-25 pilot. He returned to the U.S. in 1944 and served as a =
B-25 instructor pilot. In 1945, he was sent to Okinawa and flew seven =
combat missions over Japan. He later left the Air Force to attend the =
University of Minnesota, receiving a bachelor of science degree in =
aeronautical engineering in 1949. In 1951, he was recalled to active =
duty by the Minnesota Air National Guard, assigned as a maintenance =
flight test officer of an F-51 squadron in Minneapolis.

After two overseas assignments, Slayton attended the Air Force Test =
Pilot School in 1955 at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. He served as a =
test pilot at Edwards from January 1956 to April 1959, when he was named =
an astronaut.

Slayton's honors include the NASA Exceptional Service Medal; two NASA =
Outstanding Leadership Medals; four NASA Distinguished Service Medals; =
the Collier Trophy; the SETP Iven C. Kincheloe Award; the General Billy =
Mitchell Award; the SETP J.H. Doolittle Award for 1972; the National=20


- more -
- 3 -

Institute of Social Science's Gold Medal in 1975; the Wright Brothers =
International Manned Space Flight Award in 1975; the Veterans of Foreign =
Wars National Space Award in 1976; the Federation Aeronautique =
Internationale's Yuri Gagarin Gold Medal in 1976; the American Heart =
Association's Heart of the Year Award in 1976; the American Institute of =
Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) Special Presidential Citation in =
1977; the Houston Area's Federal Business Association's Civil Servant of =
the Year Award in 1977; and the AIAA Haley Astronautics Award in 1978, =
among others.


--end--


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<CENTER></CENTER>Barbara Schwartz June 13, 1993
<P>RELEASE: 93-043
<P><B>MERCURY ASTRONAUT DONALD K. "DEKE" SLAYTON DECEASED</B>
<P>Donald K. "Deke" Slayton, 69, one of the United States' original =
seven=20
astronauts selected by NASA for the Mercury Program in 1959, died=20
<P>June 13, 1993, of complications of a brain tumor.
<P>Born March 1, 1924, in Sparta, Wi., Slayton flew as Apollo docking =
module=20
pilot for the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project in 1975, a joint United =
States-Soviet=20
Union space flight that culminated in the first and only meeting to date =
in=20
space of astronauts and cosmonauts. Slayton was named by NASA as an =
astronaut in=20
April 1959, and was originally scheduled to pilot the Mercury-Atlas 7 =
mission,=20
an assignment that was later changed due to a diagnosed heart condition. =
The=20
mission was subsequently flown by M. Scott Carpenter in May 1962.
<P>Slayton went on to become chief of astronaut activities in September =
1962 and=20
was responsible for the operations of the astronaut office. In November =
1963, he=20
resigned a commission as an Air Force Major to become Director of Flight =
Crew=20
Operations for NASA, responsible for directing activities of the =
astronaut=20
office, aircraft operations office, flight crew integration division, =
crew=20
training and simulation division, and crew procedures division.
<P>In March 1972, Slayton was restored to full flight status and =
certified=20
eligible for space flight following a review of his medical status by =
NASA's=20
director of life sciences and the Federal Aviation Administration. His =
fellow=20
crew members for Apollo-Soyuz were Thomas P. Stafford and Vance D. =
Brand.
<P>
<CENTER>- more -</CENTER>
<P>
<CENTER>- 2 -</CENTER>
<P>In December 1975, Slayton became manager for the Space Shuttle =
Program's=20
Approach and Landing Test Project. As manager, Slayton directed the =
project,=20
which included five landings by the test orbiter Enterprise, dropped =
from a=20
carrier airplane to simulate the final 20,000 feet of a shuttle landing. =
The=20
project checked out the shuttle's flight control systems and evaluated =
its=20
subsonic flying qualities.
<P>From November 1977 through February 1982, Slayton was manager of the =
Space=20
Shuttle's Orbital Flight Test Project, directing preparations for and =
overseeing=20
operations of the first two shuttle missions. His responsibilities =
included=20
scheduling, mission configuration, mission readiness reviews, postflight =
mission=20
evaluations and ferry operations with the 747 Shuttle Carrier Aircraft.
<P>Slayton retired from NASA in February 1982. At the time of his death, =
he=20
served as president of Space Services, Inc., Houston, and as a =
consultant to=20
several aerospace corporations, among other positions.
<P>Among the orginal seven astronauts, Slayton was preceded in death by =
Virgil=20
I. "Gus" Grissom, killed in an Apollo spacecraft fire on the launch pad =
Jan. 27,=20
1967. Slayton is survived by his wife, Bobbie, and son, Kent.
<P>Slayton entered the Air Force as an aviation cadet, receiving his =
wings in=20
April 1943. During World War II, he flew 56 combat missions over Europe =
as a=20
B-25 pilot. He returned to the U.S. in 1944 and served as a B-25 =
instructor=20
pilot. In 1945, he was sent to Okinawa and flew seven combat missions =
over=20
Japan. He later left the Air Force to attend the University of =
Minnesota,=20
receiving a bachelor of science degree in aeronautical engineering in =
1949. In=20
1951, he was recalled to active duty by the Minnesota Air National =
Guard,=20
assigned as a maintenance flight test officer of an F-51 squadron in=20
Minneapolis.
<P>After two overseas assignments, Slayton attended the Air Force Test =
Pilot=20
School in 1955 at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. He served as a test =
pilot at=20
Edwards from January 1956 to April 1959, when he was named an astronaut.
<P>Slayton's honors include the NASA Exceptional Service Medal; two NASA =

Outstanding Leadership Medals; four NASA Distinguished Service Medals; =
the=20
Collier Trophy; the SETP Iven C. Kincheloe Award; the General Billy =
Mitchell=20
Award; the SETP J.H. Doolittle Award for 1972; the National=20
<P>
<CENTER>- more -</CENTER>
<P>- 3 -
<P>Institute of Social Science's Gold Medal in 1975; the Wright Brothers =

International Manned Space Flight Award in 1975; the Veterans of Foreign =
Wars=20
National Space Award in 1976; the Federation Aeronautique =
Internationale's Yuri=20
Gagarin Gold Medal in 1976; the American Heart Association's Heart of =
the Year=20
Award in 1976; the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics =
(AIAA)=20
Special Presidential Citation in 1977; the Houston Area's Federal =
Business=20
Association's Civil Servant of the Year Award in 1977; and the AIAA =
Haley=20
Astronautics Award in 1978, among others.
<P>
<CENTER><B>--end--</B></CENTER>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 20:52:06 2001
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Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 22:55:13 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
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At 04:10 AM 6/23/01 -0500, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>What I was getting at, is that the gravity force seems to be an Intrinsically
>Attractive Force that comes about by way of the relativistic mechanisms of the
>sub-atomic particles.

This meaning the media "eather"  is distorted by the speed of the particles 
and the mechanism of the distortion is electromagnetic.  This is how I 
understood this.

The neutron disintegration helps.  (some of that learning)

>Most of the stuff I've used to put together the String-Circle (or Wave-Circle)
>"Model". was gotten from older
>EE texts.  :-)

I find these old dusty books of mine to be quite revealing.  Seems the more 
you understand...  the more you can understand.   Information doesn't clog 
the human mind but rather tends to open it.

> >  I teach myself physics as time
> > permits.
>That's the best way, otherwise you could become an aesthetic or a philosopher.

Oops just went there for a moment :-)



> >  IF this is true I think you could attenuate G with a simple
> > bowel shaped superconductor like a hunk of chain link fence will attenuate
> > a cell phone signal.   This could be experimental proof.
>
>Gravity shielding with chicken wire, Charles? Hmmm   :-)

Sort of... Like microscopic chicken wire...   You are talking about very 
short wavelengths.  Shorter then the distances of typical molecular 
bonds.  I believe this is why mass appears to be transparent to G

Robin mentioned the bowel shape.

There is more to the bowel shape.   In order to test this conjecture you 
might form a bowel shaped superconductor to hide the entire mass of the 
Earth from a test object.  Using a sensitive scale place the test object 
inside the bowel and begin to chill it.   When the bowel material reaches 
the necessary temperature the test object my loose weight.   Shadowing the 
entire Earth mass allows you to directly calculate the attenuation as a 
percentage of G without tons of advanced math.

That is if the experiment works.
Charlie Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net 

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 21:37:33 2001
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Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Charles Ford" <cjford1 yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?

Hi Charles:

Would you please change "Bowel Shape" to Bowl Shape
before I bust a gut laughing.   :-)

Best,   Frederick


> At 04:10 AM 6/23/01 -0500, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> >What I was getting at, is that the gravity force seems to be an Intrinsically
> >Attractive Force that comes about by way of the relativistic mechanisms of the
> >sub-atomic particles.
> 
> This meaning the media "eather"  is distorted by the speed of the particles 
> and the mechanism of the distortion is electromagnetic.  This is how I 
> understood this.
> 
> The neutron disintegration helps.  (some of that learning)
> 
> >Most of the stuff I've used to put together the String-Circle (or Wave-Circle)
> >"Model". was gotten from older
> >EE texts.  :-)
> 
> I find these old dusty books of mine to be quite revealing.  Seems the more 
> you understand...  the more you can understand.   Information doesn't clog 
> the human mind but rather tends to open it.
> 
> > >  I teach myself physics as time
> > > permits.
> >That's the best way, otherwise you could become an aesthetic or a philosopher.
> 
> Oops just went there for a moment :-)
> 
> 
> 
> > >  IF this is true I think you could attenuate G with a simple
> > > bowel shaped superconductor like a hunk of chain link fence will attenuate
> > > a cell phone signal.   This could be experimental proof.
> >
> >Gravity shielding with chicken wire, Charles? Hmmm   :-)
> 
> Sort of... Like microscopic chicken wire...   You are talking about very 
> short wavelengths.  Shorter then the distances of typical molecular 
> bonds.  I believe this is why mass appears to be transparent to G
> 
> Robin mentioned the bowel shape.
> 
> There is more to the bowel shape.   In order to test this conjecture you 
> might form a bowel shaped superconductor to hide the entire mass of the 
> Earth from a test object.  Using a sensitive scale place the test object 
> inside the bowel and begin to chill it.   When the bowel material reaches 
> the necessary temperature the test object my loose weight.   Shadowing the 
> entire Earth mass allows you to directly calculate the attenuation as a 
> percentage of G without tons of advanced math.
> 
> That is if the experiment works.
> Charlie Ford
> KC5-OWZ
> cjford1 yahoo.com
> cjford1 swbell.net 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 22:13:52 2001
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Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 00:16:34 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
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At 10:34 PM 6/23/01 -0500, you wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charles Ford" <cjford1 yahoo.com>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 10:55 PM
>Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
>
>Hi Charles:
>
>Would you please change "Bowel Shape" to Bowl Shape
>before I bust a gut laughing.   :-)
>
>Best,   Frederick

Sorry ... didn't notice and of course through the spell check 
unnoticed.   It is rather hilarious though.

Tehe he  snort

> >
> > Robin mentioned the SENSORED shape.
> >
> > There is more to the SENSORED shape.   In order to test this conjecture 
> you
> > might form a SENSORED shaped superconductor to hide the entire mass of the
> > Earth from a test object.  Using a sensitive scale place the test object
> > inside the SENSORED and begin to chill it.   When the SENSORED material 
> reaches
> > the necessary temperature the test object my loose weight.   Shadowing the
> > entire Earth mass allows you to directly calculate the attenuation as a
> > percentage of G without tons of advanced math.
> >
> > That is if the experiment works.



Charlie Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net 

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 22:16:30 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:15:09 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Sat, 23 Jun 2001 22:55:13 -0500:
[snip]
>Robin mentioned the bowel shape.

No, you originally did, everyone else quoted it. See
http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m19760.html .
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 23 22:43:19 2001
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Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Ford" <cjford1 yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?

Charles Ford wrote:

Reply with the B word changed.  :-)


> At 04:10 AM 6/23/01 -0500, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >What I was getting at, is that the gravity force seems to be an Intrinsically
> >Attractive Force that comes about by way of the relativistic mechanisms of the
> >sub-atomic particles.
>
> This meaning the media "aether"  is distorted by the speed of the particles
> and the mechanism of the distortion is electromagnetic.

Sort of. The Wave-Circle (String-Circle) can be thought of as a Photon (Energy Wave)
that has came to rest and
divided (at allowed resonant energies) into two standing inertial waves localized in
space (String-Circles or Quarks) that make up the atoms.

There are 5A - 2Z of these in each atom or nucleon:

2A    "up" or Positive String-Circles
2A - Z  "down" or Negative  String-Circles
  A-Z  anti-neutrinos

plus the Z negative external electrons.

In Antimatter, still 5A - 2Z but the signs are reversed and neutrinos instead of
anti-neutrinos, with the external "electrons" being Positrons.

For instance the Proton (1H1) with  A = 1 and Z = 1:
5A - 2Z = 5*1 - 2*1 = 3 String-Circles or Quarks:

OTOH the neutron (oN1) with A = 1 and Z = 0:

5A - 2Z = 5*1 - 0 = 5 String-Circles or Quarks:

2A =  2 "up"
2A - Z =  2 " down"
  A - Z = 1 anti-neutrino
and 0 external electrons.

The gravity field from these add up to the gravitational field of the atom, and by the
time you get to the 5.98E24
kg mass of the Earth, it adds up to a bunch.
>  This is how I
> understood this.

This is just one model out of many, but it's close to
String-Superstring Theory.  So Far.  :-)
>
> The neutron disintegration helps.  (some of that learning)
>
> >Most of the stuff I've used to put together the String-Circle (or Wave-Circle)
> >"Model". was gotten from older
> >EE texts.  :-)
>
> I find these old dusty books of mine to be quite revealing.  Seems the more
> you understand...  the more you can understand.   Information doesn't clog
> the human mind but rather tends to open it.

Especially in older texts where they were not swamped
with a technology explosion.
>
> > >  I teach myself physics as time
> > > permits.
> >That's the best way, otherwise you could become an aesthetic or a philosopher.
>
> Oops just went there for a moment :-)
>
>
>
> > >  IF this is true I think you could attenuate G with a simple
> > > bowl shaped superconductor like a hunk of chain link fence will attenuate
> > > a cell phone signal.   This could be experimental proof.
> >
> >Gravity shielding with chicken wire, Charles? Hmmm   :-)
>
> Sort of... Like microscopic chicken wire...   You are talking about very
> short wavelengths.  Shorter then the distances of typical molecular
> bonds.  I believe this is why mass appears to be transparent to G

I disagree. Mass appears transparent to G because at the right frequency and wave
configuration the material surrounding such a configuration "aligns" to it, thus
making it transparent. IOW the relativistic time dilation of the particles allows them
to "see each other" because they are in the same reference frame.
>
> Robin mentioned the bowl shape.
>
> There is more to the bowl shape.   In order to test this conjecture you
> might form a bowl shaped superconductor to hide the entire mass of the
> Earth from a test object.  Using a sensitive scale place the test object
> inside the bowl and begin to chill it.   When the bowl material reaches
> the necessary temperature the test object my loose weight.   Shadowing the
> entire Earth mass allows you to directly calculate the attenuation as a
> percentage of G without tons of advanced math.

Tons of advanced math is a waste of time. It's a matter of visualization.
>
> That is if the experiment works.

Worth a try if you have the equipment.

Regards,   Frederick
> Charlie Ford
> KC5-OWZ
> cjford1 yahoo.com
> cjford1 swbell.net
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>

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Untitled DocumentRead Mr. Thompkin's Visit to the Land of Relativity, by
George Gamow.  Doubleday.  There  the speed of light, c is
ten miles/hour. Great book.
      Lecture 8 - General Relativity



        Statement of Special Relativity

All bodies in reference frames K and K', which are moving with uniform =
linear motion relative to one another, are equivalent for the =
description of all natural phenomena in a Euclidian geometry.



        Problems of Special Relativity

It only holds for inertial reference frames. That is reference frames =
that are moving a constant velocity with respect to each other with no =
rotation. For example, Newton's First Law states that all objects will =
remain at rest or travel along straight lines unless acted upon by some =
external force. But, this only applies for reference frames in linear =
motion. If a reference frame is accelerated, this doesn't work.

It says that nothing can move faster than the speed of light. This =
arguably goes against Newton's Third Law (gravitation). If one moves a =
mass from one place to another, Newton's law says that its influence on =
all other matter is instantaneous. This doesn't fit notion of light =
being fastest and finite.



        Statement of General Relativity

All bodies in refernce frames K and K' are equivalent for the =
description of all natural phenomena no matter what their state of =
motion in a Gaussian (or Riemannian, non-Euclidian) geometry.

This theory will not work for Euclidean geometry. It does work for more =
general curvilinear coordinate systems called Gaussian or Riemannian =
geometries. These geometries can describe the universe and happen to be =
curved depending on wher mass in located.

In this statement, the effects we associate with gravity can be seen to =
be equivalent with the effects of uniform acceleration of our reference =
frame.



    Mr. Thompkin's first visit to the Land of Relativity

        (I - City Speed Limit)

Most of the activities which Mr. Thompkins (MT) sees during his first =
trip to the land of relativity can be explained by the Special Theory of =
Relativity. One sequence, however, must be explained by the General =
Theory of Relativity.

* At the train station MT sees a young man coming off the train meeting =
an old lady. It turns out the young man is the grandfather of the old =
lady. Man spends a lot of time travelling where time moves more slowly. =
Therefore he ages more slowly than people who live in town and do not =
travel much. [This can be explained by the Special Theory of Relativity, =
travel at relativistic speeds causes time to slow down. But, it can also =
be explained in terms of the General Theory of Relativity - see below.]

* Train engineer claims he is responsible for making people age more =
slowly on trains because he is brakeman. Suggests time slows down due to =
acceleration and decceleration. [ The Genral Theory of Relativity states =
that time slows down whenever acceleration (or decceleration) is =
occurring. So young man nay be young due to effects of either Special or =
General Theory of Relativity.



          Twin Paradox

The General Theory of Relativity also provides a more realistic =
explanation of the Twin Paradox. When we first visited the Twin Paradox, =
we stated that the space ship went away from the Earth at constant =
linear relativisitic speed, then turned around and came back. We =
attributed difference in age of twins to time spent at constant =
relativiistic speed (slower time). But, realistically, the space ship =
had to accelerate and deccelerate twice to really make the trip. Age =
difference could also be due to this.



      Perspectives on General Relativity

Example 1:=20

The reasoning which led to the General Theory of Relativity (GTR) =
included simple examples of how things behave in systems under =
acceleration. For example, consider a space ship at rest (of in constant =
liear motion) somewhere far from sources of gravitation. Inside the =
spaceship a man (or any object) will float in the air and a beam of =
light shone from one location will travel in a straight line. If the =
ship starts to accelerate, the person or any object will move in =
adirection opposite the direction of acceleration until there is contact =
witht he ship. Then theperson/object will move with the ship but feel =
the force of acceleration. A person would interpret this as gravity! =
This establishes the equivalence of acceleration andgravity in GTR.

Under acceleration, light shone from one location in the ship will no =
longer travel in a straight line, but rather a curved arc (unless light =
direction is exactly parallel to direction of acceleration). This =
suggests light rays can be bent by sources of gravity. This effect is =
visible as light from distant stars goe close to, but past, the Sun.



Example 2:

Another example (Mr. Thompkins, Chapter 4), is to imagine a =
merry-go-round which is walled off so that anyone on the merry-go-round =
can't see that they are rotating. Let the merry-go-round spin at a speed =
near the speed of light. (Remember, rotation even at constant velocity =
is a form of acceleration because the direction is always changing.) In =
this example, people of the merry-go-round will 'feel' a gravitation =
that is outward toward the edges ofthe merry-go-round. Speed in the =
merry-go-round will change from zero at the center to almost the speed =
of light at the edges.

Let a meter stick be used to measure the merry-go-round by laying the =
stick end-to-end from the center to the edge and then end-to-end around =
the circumference of the merry-go-round. In Euclidean space (inertial =
reference frames), the ratio of the radius to circumference is 2*pi, =
where pi is 3.14159... But, in the case of the merry-go-round, the ratio =
will be bigger. The reason is that the meter stick is always the same =
length as one progresses towar dthe edge ofthe merry-go-round because =
lengths only change in direction of motion (Lorentz transformations). =
But, masurement along the edge will align the meter stick with the =
direction of motion and it will change its length.

Also, if one tried to stretch a piece of string or rope from one place =
on the merry-go-round edge to another place, the string would prefer to =
'bend' toard the middle. This is because the shortest distance between =
two points in an accelerated reference frame is no longer a straight =
line. Euclidean geometry doesn't hold! What we have is a curvilinear =
non-Euclidean (Riemanian ) geomtry. This is the geometry of our =
Universe!

Last but not least, a clock placed at the center of the merry-go-round =
will be faster than a clock at the edge due to efects of acceleration.



  Key Experimental Tests of the General Theory of Relativity

1) Light travelling from distant stars ar bent around the Sun as the =
light rays go closely past it.

2) Precession of all planetary orbits around the Sun. This precession is =
most easily measured for Mercury.



          Implications

The Universe is curvilinear in form and is a true space-time continuum.=20

The curvilinear nature can be attributed to location and size of masses =
in the Universe.

Planets can be viewed as moving along paths that are the shortest =
distance along a curved surface near a strong source of mass (gravity), =
the Sun.


Return to Index=20


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	charset="Windows-1252"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Untitled Document</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www-earth.usc.edu/~slund/inquiry/lecture8.html>
<META content=3D"Adobe PageMill 2.0 Mac" name=3DGENERATOR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Read Mr. Thompkin's Visit to the Land =
of=20
Relativity, by</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>George Gamow.&nbsp; Doubleday.&nbsp; =
There&nbsp;=20
the speed of light, c is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>ten miles/hour. Great =
book.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE>
      <P><B><FONT size=3D+2>Lecture 8 - General=20
    Relativity</FONT></B></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE>
        <P><B>Statement of Special=20
  Relativity</B></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>All bodies in reference frames K and K', which are moving with =
uniform linear=20
motion relative to one another, are equivalent for the description of =
all=20
natural phenomena in a Euclidian geometry.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE>
        <P><B>Problems of Special=20
  Relativity</B></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>It only holds for inertial reference frames. That is reference frames =
that=20
are moving a constant velocity with respect to each other with no =
rotation. For=20
example, Newton's First Law states that all objects will remain at rest =
or=20
travel along straight lines unless acted upon by some external force. =
But, this=20
only applies for reference frames in linear motion. If a reference frame =
is=20
accelerated, this doesn't work.</P>
<P>It says that nothing can move faster than the speed of light. This =
arguably=20
goes against Newton's Third Law (gravitation). If one moves a mass from =
one=20
place to another, Newton's law says that its influence on all other =
matter is=20
instantaneous. This doesn't fit notion of light being fastest and =
finite.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE>
        <P><B>Statement of General=20
  Relativity</B></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>All bodies in refernce frames K and K' are equivalent for the =
description of=20
all natural phenomena no matter what their state of motion in a Gaussian =
(or=20
Riemannian, non-Euclidian) geometry.</P>
<P>This theory will not work for Euclidean geometry. It does work for =
more=20
general curvilinear coordinate systems called Gaussian or Riemannian =
geometries.=20
These geometries can describe the universe and happen to be curved =
depending on=20
wher mass in located.</P>
<P>In this statement, the effects we associate with gravity can be seen =
to be=20
equivalent with the effects of uniform acceleration of our reference =
frame.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE>
    <P><B>Mr. Thompkin's first visit to the Land of Relativity</B></P>
    <BLOCKQUOTE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE>
        <P><B>(I - City Speed=20
Limit)</B></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>Most of the activities which Mr. Thompkins (MT) sees during his first =
trip to=20
the land of relativity can be explained by the Special Theory of =
Relativity. One=20
sequence, however, must be explained by the General Theory of =
Relativity.</P>
<P>* At the train station MT sees a young man coming off the train =
meeting an=20
old lady. It turns out the young man is the grandfather of the old lady. =
Man=20
spends a lot of time travelling where time moves more slowly. Therefore =
he ages=20
more slowly than people who live in town and do not travel much. [This =
can be=20
explained by the Special Theory of Relativity, travel at relativistic =
speeds=20
causes time to slow down. But, it can also be explained in terms of the =
General=20
Theory of Relativity - see below.]</P>
<P>* Train engineer claims he is responsible for making people age more =
slowly=20
on trains because he is brakeman. Suggests time slows down due to =
acceleration=20
and decceleration. [ The Genral Theory of Relativity states that time =
slows down=20
whenever acceleration (or decceleration) is occurring. So young man nay =
be young=20
due to effects of either Special or General Theory of Relativity.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE>
        <BLOCKQUOTE>
          <P><B>Twin=20
Paradox</B></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOC=
KQUOTE>
<P>The General Theory of Relativity also provides a more realistic =
explanation=20
of the Twin Paradox. When we first visited the Twin Paradox, we stated =
that the=20
space ship went away from the Earth at constant linear relativisitic =
speed, then=20
turned around and came back. We attributed difference in age of twins to =
time=20
spent at constant relativiistic speed (slower time). But, realistically, =
the=20
space ship had to accelerate and deccelerate twice to really make the =
trip. Age=20
difference could also be due to this.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE>
      <P><B>Perspectives on General=20
Relativity</B></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><B>Example </B>1: </P>
<P>The reasoning which led to the General Theory of Relativity (GTR) =
included=20
simple examples of how things behave in systems under acceleration. For =
example,=20
consider a space ship at rest (of in constant liear motion) somewhere =
far from=20
sources of gravitation. Inside the spaceship a man (or any object) will =
float in=20
the air and a beam of light shone from one location will travel in a =
straight=20
line. If the ship starts to accelerate, the person or any object will =
move in=20
adirection opposite the direction of acceleration until there is contact =
witht=20
he ship. Then theperson/object will move with the ship but feel the =
force of=20
acceleration. A person would interpret this as gravity! This establishes =
the=20
equivalence of acceleration andgravity in GTR.</P>
<P>Under acceleration, light shone from one location in the ship will no =
longer=20
travel in a straight line, but rather a curved arc (unless light =
direction is=20
exactly parallel to direction of acceleration). This suggests light rays =
can be=20
bent by sources of gravity. This effect is visible as light from distant =
stars=20
goe close to, but past, the Sun.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><B>Example </B>2:</P>
<P>Another example (Mr. Thompkins, Chapter 4), is to imagine a =
merry-go-round=20
which is walled off so that anyone on the merry-go-round can't see that =
they are=20
rotating. Let the merry-go-round spin at a speed near the speed of =
light.=20
(Remember, rotation even at constant velocity is a form of acceleration =
because=20
the direction is always changing.) In this example, people of the =
merry-go-round=20
will 'feel' a gravitation that is outward toward the edges ofthe =
merry-go-round.=20
Speed in the merry-go-round will change from zero at the center to =
almost the=20
speed of light at the edges.</P>
<P>Let a meter stick be used to measure the merry-go-round by laying the =
stick=20
end-to-end from the center to the edge and then end-to-end around the=20
circumference of the merry-go-round. In Euclidean space (inertial =
reference=20
frames), the ratio of the radius to circumference is 2*pi, where pi is=20
3.14159... But, in the case of the merry-go-round, the ratio will be =
bigger. The=20
reason is that the meter stick is always the same length as one =
progresses towar=20
dthe edge ofthe merry-go-round because lengths only change in direction =
of=20
motion (Lorentz transformations). But, masurement along the edge will =
align the=20
meter stick with the direction of motion and it will change its =
length.</P>
<P>Also, if one tried to stretch a piece of string or rope from one =
place on the=20
merry-go-round edge to another place, the string would prefer to 'bend' =
toard=20
the middle. This is because the shortest distance between two points in =
an=20
accelerated reference frame is no longer a straight line. Euclidean =
geometry=20
doesn't hold! What we have is a curvilinear non-Euclidean (Riemanian ) =
geomtry.=20
This is the geometry of our Universe!</P>
<P>Last but not least, a clock placed at the center of the =
merry-go-round will=20
be faster than a clock at the edge due to efects of acceleration.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <P><B>Key Experimental Tests of the General Theory of=20
Relativity</B></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>1) Light travelling from distant stars ar bent around the Sun as the =
light=20
rays go closely past it.</P>
<P>2) Precession of all planetary orbits around the Sun. This precession =
is most=20
easily measured for Mercury.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE>
        <BLOCKQUOTE>
          =
<P><B>Implications</B></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQ=
UOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>The Universe is curvilinear in form and is a true space-time =
continuum. </P>
<P>The curvilinear nature can be attributed to location and size of =
masses in=20
the Universe.</P>
<P>Planets can be viewed as moving along paths that are the shortest =
distance=20
along a curved surface near a strong source of mass (gravity), the =
Sun.<BR></P>
<P><A href=3D"index.html">Return to Index</A> </P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 24 08:33:49 2001
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Subject: Re:Getting Closer to Grand Unified? 
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Mr. Thompkin's adventures etc.

 http://spot.colorado.edu/~gamow/george/booklist.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 24 10:16:15 2001
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Charles, this is how I perceive gravitation using the Wave-Circle or String-Circle
Model.

Imagine two carousels equipped with kids on "ponies" or such, that move up and down as
the carousels turn, with large clocks mounted on the rims so that the kids can observe
the clocks and each other on the neighboring carousel.

With the carousels turning near the local speed of light c at 10 mph, the acceleration
(v^2/r) is constant due to the constant change of direction of a point on the rotating
carousel.

Thus since the slowing (time dilation) depends on how close the carousel rim velocity
is to the 10 mph light speed, say 9.99999 mph:

T  =   1/[1 - (9.99999^2/10^2)]^1/2 = 1,000,000 times as slow as say one second on the
clocks.

IOW, for all practical purposes Time Stands Still for the
kids and clocks on the carousels, one second becomes one million seconds (11.574 days)
but for mom and dad
observing this, all they see is a blur.

With a time dilation of ~ 3.35E18 due to the 1.03E25 Hz "internal manifestations" of
the String-Circles, you can see why a Displacement Current (I = q*f) that is dilated
from ~1.65E6 amperes to ~ 5.0E-13 amperes results in the weak gravitational field.

Like the kids and clocks the particles can "see" each other, but it's a bit difficult
for us "moms and dads" to figure out a way to couple into it (the magneto-gravity
fields) with our antigravity/gravity-screening schemes.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 24 12:00:45 2001
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>A large part of the drop in consumption is probably due to the rolling
>blackouts, rather than due to any drop in demand.

As Dan Quickert pointed out, the blackouts have been very short and they
only involve a small fraction of the total users, in limited areas. If the
electricity in California was off 11% of the time, or even 5% of the time
(1 hour, 10 minutes per day everywhere in the state), you would hear about
it. It would be front page news everywhere.

Most of the 11% reduction probably comes at times other than peak hours,
such as night, when it does not do a bit of good. Okay, it saves fuel and
reduces pollution, but the only shortages occur between noon and 6:00 p.m.

In February and March there were shortages on days when consumption was
significantly below 2000 and 1999. Many people suspect the power companies
are manipulating production. The S.F. Chronicle reports that recently laid
off power company workers say they were ordered to take plants off line for
unnessary maintenance, and to destroy spare parts so that maintenance would
take days longer than it should.

- Jed

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To: Bruce Meland <etimes teleport.com>
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        jcarey9622 aol.com
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Bruce Meland wrote:

> Yes  I agree with you mostly of what you stated below, and  I appologize for
> a rather curse statement. I just wanted to get a point across.  It is a
> tendency for peer reviewers to jump to conclusions  perhaps because they
> have not been given all the facts about the invention or are not wiling to
> gather all the information and facts like Park. I am guilty of not giving
> all the facts about the neutrino voltaics technology because the 2 inventors
> who have the technology are not about to reveal all the details due to
> patent or confidentiality reasons to potential investors. And Jack has not
> given you all the facts about their technology.  Like some cold fusion
> patent applications the neutrinovoltaics patent applications have been
> denied and supression tactics used. But hopefully future PO  procedures  and
> supression tactics will subside for the bettermant  health of the people and
> planet earth.  

	What do you mean the capacitor "operates" at 50 Thz?
	T in Thz stands for Tera ... or 10 to positive 12th power.

	Capacitors pass AC... or alternating current.... 
Jack
> Shulman, CEO of American Computer Co., ACC,   who developed the transfer
> capacitor, TCAP, which operates at 12-THz , ran a  4-function breadboard
> programable 50 Thz calculator.(50 trillion hertz) and


	What allows storage?

 allows storage
> densities of 90 gigabytes.

	I have capacitor technology that can store 25 times this much...
and you can go to the computer store and do the same...



 ACC decided not to get a patent because it would
> reveal too much to competitors.   Lockeed  and ATT are in pursuit and
> perhaps have done some backengineering on some of their TCAP's installed in
> a few notebook computers. And it is suspected  Lockeed has incorporated
> perhaps a version of the TCAP in their TransAtmospheric Warfighter. ATT
> with all its power essentially shut down ACC's business for a while and it's
> many Web Sites due to the bankruptcy of North Point Communications(ACC's
> provider)  along with 600,000 Northpoint DSL subscribers. ATT now claims the
> TCAP as it's own.  


	Bruce.... this is BS... can YOU show me a story wherein ATT
claims they have a

	?Transfer Capacitor" ???

	And... what ...exactly IS a Transfer Capacitor???

	What or how does it 'transfer' ???


> on line  at  www.AmericanMafia.com about their power. ACC is barely holding
> its own because it has not revealed all it's trade secrets and in spite of
> super advanced  covert and overt attacks by  big commercial rivals and
> government interference. More details can be obtained from
> CompAmericaOnline.com Web sites: www.aliensci.com and
> www.roswellinternet.com  and of course get the Jul-Aug, 2001  issue No. 28
> of Atlantis Rising  for the complete story  and check out
> www.antlantisrising.com       Bruce   ----Original Message-----
> From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; vortex-l@eskimo.com
> <vortex-l eskimo.com>; etimes@teleport.com <etimes@teleport.com>
> Date: Monday, June 18, 2001 9:37 AM
> Subject: Re: Other Hyrogen fuel
> 
> 
> >I explained that I have not "debunked" anything here. I merely reported my
> >exchange with Jack Carey in detail, quoting him verbatim as closely as I
> >can remember. Bruce Meland responded:
> >
> >>  Still Sounds similar to Park's tactics
> >
> >No, Bruce, it does not. Please stop making blanket statements without
> >evidence. Here is a partial list of the differences between Robert Park and
> me:
> >
> >1. I listed Jack Carey's e-mail address (in the message header). If he had
> >not supplied his telephone number here already, I would have done so. Park
> >never gives his readers a way to contact the people he critiques.
> >
> >2. I quoted Carey exactly and in detail, both what he wrote here, and what
> >he said on the telephone. I give the reader every opportunity to see what
> >the author himself claims. Park never quotes anyone directly. He
> >paraphrases, deliberately distorts and ridicules the author.
> >
> >3. Carey has not published anything as far as I know, but if he had you can
> >be sure I would list the author, title and publication. I ALWAYS provide
> >footnotes. Park never does.
> >
> >4. I cross-check every fact, and make no assertion not backed up in the
> >textbooks. Park makes up facts as he goes along, and he broadcasts ignorant
> >nonsense such as the claim that you can measure magnetic field strength by
> >putting sheets of paper between a magnet and a vertical metal surface.
> >
> >5. I read as much as I can about a subject before commenting on it, and
> >that includes these claims of over-unity electrical machines. Park brags
> >that he has never read a paper about cold fusion.
> >
> >6. Park always puts theory ahead of experiments. I put experiments first,
> >but Carey says he has not performed experiments or measurements in the
> >usual sense of the word. He relies upon subjective impressions such as how
> >bright the lights are.
> >
> >In short, there is a world of difference between Park and me. If you
> >continue to make this empty accusation, you will only reveal how ignorant
> >you are, so I suggest you shut up.
> >
> >- Jed
> >
> >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 24 20:51:46 2001
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Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:54:39 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re; Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
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Interesting analogy...

I think this could also be used to better explain things like the formation 
of soft-solids like pb   as opposed to crystals like Si.

At 11:13 AM 6/24/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles, this is how I perceive gravitation using the Wave-Circle or 
>String-Circle
>Model.
<SNIP>
>IOW, for all practical purposes Time Stands Still for the kids and clocks 
>on the carousels, one second becomes one million seconds (11.574 days)
>but for mom and dad
>observing this, all they see is a blur.
>
>With a time dilation of ~ 3.35E18 due to the 1.03E25 Hz "internal 
>manifestations" of
>the String-Circles, you can see why a Displacement Current (I = q*f) that 
>is dilated
>from ~1.65E6 amperes to ~ 5.0E-13 amperes results in the weak 
>gravitational field.
>
>Like the kids and clocks the particles can "see" each other, but it's a 
>bit difficult
>for us "moms and dads" to figure out a way to couple into it (the 
>magneto-gravity
>fields) with our antigravity/gravity-screening schemes.  :-)
>
>Regards,   Frederick

A problematic part of my conjecture.   A charged particle in motion causes 
a magnetic field.   Acceleration of a charged particle causes a wave.   An 
atom having electrons moving rapidly about in a stable "orbit" should cause 
a constant signal.   This signal would radiate like a radio wave of a very 
high frequency.  The wave would not be se metrical as the particle is 
moving very quickly.  This would cause the leading slope of the wave to be 
steeper then the trailing.  Because the movement of a charged particle is 
effected by a magnetic field another atom could respond to this radiated 
wave causing the attraction known as G.   The huge number of diverse atoms 
that make up this planet should radiate a rather large and chaotic G radio 
noise with varying strengths (due to distance) and diverse spectral content 
(due to diverse atoms).

This seemed right to me at first.  The problem then was how to go about 
proving it.   In the process of thinking it out I discovered a rather large 
problem in the concept.  This radiated wave could be defined as a fixed 
amount of power.  This would mean that the atom is constantly throwing out 
energy.  This violates conservation  as in "energy from ???  where  ???"

So if I was willing to flush conservation down the john I was ready to be 
considered a full fledged kook.   Except I have never seen any real 
evidence against conservation and I am simply not willing to pull the chain 
yet.

Not having direct access to the more recent accelerator results I simply 
had no way to prove  this anyway.  So I took conservation back out of the 
toilet and went back to studying.


Charlie Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net 

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 24 21:37:51 2001
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Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:35:09 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Prospecting for Uranium
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Here is an interesting Geiger counter link: http://www.gammascout.com . Do
any of you guys have experience with the Gamma-Scout or have any tales to
pass on from someone who has? --Mitchell Jones
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 24 21:42:56 2001
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Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:41:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Brain cavity resonance
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>
>
>I read somewhere that 400 MHz is also about the frequency at which our
>brain cavities resonate. Maybe gravity wave communication is behind
>telepathy? :)
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk

Have you ever heard of the Neurophone? I'm told it give the user a 
headache, OTOH, having a Neurophone combined with a Maser you could 
convince some poor schmoe that you were G-d talking to him.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 24 21:42:58 2001
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Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:41:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: Getting Closer to Grand
Unified?</title></head><body>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Fredrick Spaber posted;</blockquote>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>
<blockquote>
<blockquote>
<blockquote><font size="+2"><b>Lecture 8 - General
Relativity</b></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Also, if one tried to stretch a piece of
string or rope from one place on the merry-go-round edge to another
place, the string would prefer to 'bend' toard the
middle.</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Wouldn't the string bend toward the outside of the Merry go
round?</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>This is because the shortest distance
between two points in an accelerated reference frame is no longer a
straight line. Euclidean geometry doesn't hold! What we have is a
curvilinear non-Euclidean (Riemanian ) geomtry. This is the geometry
of our Universe!</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>I agree with that<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Last but not least, a clock placed at the
center of the merry-go-round will be faster than a clock at the edge
due to efects of acceleration.</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>It would seem to me that the clock on the edge would be moving
faster and therefore would go faster, Or is this assuming that the
slowing of time is based on acceleration and deceleration. This is the
first time I've heard time distortion attributer to aceleration and
deceleration as opposed to speed.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><a
href="http://www-earth.usc.edu/~slund/inquiry/index.html">Return to
Index</a></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>I enjoyed reading this Fredrick, thank you for posting the
URL.</div>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 24 21:43:03 2001
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Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:41:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Polarization Technologies For Gravity Waves (Arrays of Know
 How)
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Thomas Clark posted;

>
>   Nutrino amplification technologies
>    Nutrinovotalic devices put out 1200 
>    watts
>    Convert nutrinos to electicity
>    Magnetic motors and solid state devices
>    that trap nutrinos
>   Sperical Harmonics

This is the first I've heard of Nutrino amplification, tell me more.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 24 21:43:05 2001
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Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:41:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: The Green Nazis
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>  >I was reading the other day that if you grind up 100 tons of granite
>>and process it you can recover 5 pounds of uranium. I had no idea
>>that it was so plentiful.
>
>***{Yup, I've read that lots of places. Here's one of them:
>
>Bottom line: we ain't ever gonna run out of uranium, regardless of the
>future availability of fossil fuels. (This civilization may collapse due to
>lack of *access* to nuclear energy, of course--e.g., thanks to the mindless
>crusades of the green Nazis--but that's another kettle of fish altogether.)
>
>"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." 
>--Voltaire

Particularly true given the new grinder technology that I will be 
posting as soon as I get permission.

BTW, ethical vegetarianism, not eating animals because you believe in 
their inherent rights, ecological consciousness, holding the 
environment to be of a higher importance than human beings and Nazism 
all spring from a common root. Paganism. Does this make sense based 
on your paraadigm Mitchell? I makes perfect sense based on mine.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 24 23:03:54 2001
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:59:37 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Re; Getting Closer to Grand Unified?
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Charles Ford posted;

>
>
>This seemed right to me at first.  The problem then was how to go 
>about proving it.   In the process of thinking it out I discovered a 
>rather large problem in the concept.  This radiated wave could be 
>defined as a fixed amount of power.  This would mean that the atom 
>is constantly throwing out energy.  This violates conservation  as 
>in "energy from ???  where  ???"

How about if the energy were coming out of the Aether Charles?


>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 00:55:09 2001
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 02:48:43 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Green Nazis
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>>  >I was reading the other day that if you grind up 100 tons of granite
>>>and process it you can recover 5 pounds of uranium. I had no idea
>>>that it was so plentiful.
>>
>>***{Yup, I've read that lots of places. Here's one of them:
>>
>>Bottom line: we ain't ever gonna run out of uranium, regardless of the
>>future availability of fossil fuels. (This civilization may collapse due to
>>lack of *access* to nuclear energy, of course--e.g., thanks to the mindless
>>crusades of the green Nazis--but that's another kettle of fish altogether.)
>>
>>"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero."
>>--Voltaire
>
>Particularly true given the new grinder technology that I will be
>posting as soon as I get permission.
>
>BTW, ethical vegetarianism, not eating animals because you believe in
>their inherent rights, ecological consciousness, holding the
>environment to be of a higher importance than human beings and Nazism
>all spring from a common root. Paganism. Does this make sense based
>on your paraadigm Mitchell? I makes perfect sense based on mine.

***{I agree that environmentalism is a religion, and that in many people it
takes the form of paganism. However, I do not agree that Christianity is
any better than paganism, if that is what you are suggesting.

"Paganism" is a generalized term that covers a lot of polytheistic
religions, just as "Christianity" is a generalized term that covers a lot
of allegedly "monotheistic" religions. As such, it is rather hard to say
that Paganism is either more or less nutty than Christianity, without
comparing a specific variant of the former to a specific variant of the
latter. The ancient Germans, for example, worshiped trees and demons, and
practiced human sacrifice. Their primary diety was a gigantic oak in the
Black Forest of Germany which they called the Irmensul. From its limbs they
hung prisoners captured in battle, upon whom they then inflicted the "death
of a thousand cuts," so that the blood of the prisoners would water the
Irmensul, their god, thereby strengthening him, so that by his increased
power he could better aid them in their depredations. Clearly, they were
certifiable nutters of the first water, little different from the Aztecs in
their bloodthirsty and primitive ways. On the other hand, the infamous
"Vlad the Impaler" was a Christian, and his treatment of prisoners was
fully as horrible as that of the ancient Germans or the Aztecs: he had his
men drive thousands of stakes into the ground, so that they stuck about 8
feet into the air. The stakes were then sharpened and greased, after which
prisoners of war were subjected to rectal impalement on their tips, and
left to die. As such, he was fully as loathsome as any pagan ever was, if
not more so.

Such behavior does not arise out of the differences between monotheists and
polytheists, but rather out of the abandonment of reason which they share
in common. It is simply a fact that theists believe the obvious absurdities
of religion because they are more interested in fitting in than in finding
the truth. Since this character flaw is exhibited by monotheists and
polytheists alike, you cannot decide how crazy a particular theist is, by
merely knowing whether he thinks he believes in one god or many.

--Mitchell Jones}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 07:35:21 2001
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:33:12 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Hydro Environmental Resources, HERI
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Vortexians,

It is a bit suspicious to anyone on this forum who follows alternative energy 
technologies when, all at once, dozens of urgent press release issue out at 
exactly the same time proclaiming a major ground-shaking breakthrough. Not 
that the contibutors here are prescient or even all that diligent, but I think that 
we generally expend enough time and effort following the leads, that we expect 
when that long-sought-after goal of a major breakthrough is announced, that 
we will at least have heard in advance some small mention of the company or of 
the underlying technology.

A further suspicion may be raised when the barrage of announcements comes 
not from a university, a private testing laboratory, a major journal, a national 
news organization or Infinite Energy, but instead from dozens of identical press 
releases that spread like radiation from brokerage house, supplemented by a 
few small-town reporters in such hi-tech centers as, where else, Las Vegas.

Too many optimistic, forward-thinking, and formerly well-heeled investors have 
been duped by the promises of scam artists in numerous free energy niches that 
it behooves all of us to at least question the authenticity and accuracy of such 
thinly disguised "announcements," which are often in reality little more than 
blatant offers to sell risky stock

Recently this scenario has been transpiring around yet another company 
with some tenuous claim of advanced hydrogen tech. called Hydro 
Environmental Resources, HERI, and yes, they have already filed with the SEC 
and have stock to sell you, BUT does anyone know anything about their 
process? I doubt it. The web site tells you little:
http://hydrogenerate.com/home.html

The company touts their "ElectroChem Hydrogen Fuel Reactor system" but 
barely describe its features while claiming to have a patent pending (I haven't 
yet been able to find it). The system will add "only a few pounds to the overall 
weight of a vehicle", or can be used in a $6000  2.5 kw home unit. That would 
be incredible if the "fuel" was water, but for $6k you can buy a diesel and 
reputable companies such as Capstone will soon have home turbines available, 
so what's the fuss?

Never mind, just buy the stock, is the message from this company, who by the 
way, can only be reached through a PR firm. "Successful tests have been held 
on city streets, as well as highway conditions.  The purpose of the tests was to 
establish the viability of the 'second stage' of modification.  Test results are 
expected to be released to the public shortly."

 In the mean time don't forget to call your broker.

Regards,

Jones Beene








From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 08:58:23 2001
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Subject: Uranium in granite
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thomas malloy wrote:

>>  >I was reading the other day that if you grind up 100 tons of granite
>>>and process it you can recover 5 pounds of uranium. I had no idea
>>>that it was so plentiful.

Arthur Clarke quoted Harrison Brown, The Challenge of Man's Future, (The 
Viking Press, New York, 1954):
One hundred tons of average igneous rock such as granite contains 8 tons of 
aluminum, 5 tons of iron, 1,200 pounds of titanium, 180 pounds of 
manganese, 70 pounds of chromium, 40 pounds of nickel, 30 pounds of 
vanadium, 20 pounds of copper, 10 pounds of tungsten, and 4 pounds of lead.

Clarke added:

         To extract these elements would require not only advanced
         chemical techniques, but very considerable amounts of energy.
         The rock would first have to be crushed, then treated by heat,
         electrolysis, and other means. However, as Harrison Brown also
         points out, a ton of granite contains enough uranium and thorium
         to provide energy equivalent to fifty tons of coal. All the energy
         we need for the processing is there in the rock itself.

- from "Profiles of the Future," 1963

However, at present there is a huge supply of uranium -- a glut actually. 
The ore already discovered will last 70 to 100 years easily, even with 
today's reactors, which only extract 5% of the usable energy. So there 
would be no point in developing technology to extract uranium from granite 
at the present time.

Uranium is also found in seawater at 0.0015 to 0.0032 ppm (from different 
estimates). It is the 23rd most common element in seawater. It is found at 
about 50 ppm in some granite, and at much higher concentrations in ore 
worth mining. The distribution of uranium in the earth's crust is an 
interesting problem. Quote: "in the oceanic mantle [it] is about 0.004 ppm. 
The continental crust, on the other hand, is relatively enriched in uranium 
at some 1.4 ppm. This represents a 70-fold enrichment compared with the 
primitive mantle." How it got that way is described in this paper:

http://www.uilondon.org/pdf/arculus.pdf

See also:

http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/rup.html

http://www.personal.psu.edu/dept/aquarium/Chem.htm


Mitchell Jones wrote:

         Bottom line: we ain't ever gonna run out of uranium, regardless
         of the future availability of fossil fuels.

We ain't ever gonna run out of ANYTHING. Our only problem is having too 
many resources in the wrong places, also known as pollution. As Clarke put it:

         . . . there need never be any permanent shortage of raw materials.
         Yet Sir George Darwin's prediction that ours would be a golden
         age compared with the aeons of poverty to follow, may well be
         perfectly correct. In this inconceivably enormous universe, we
         can never run out of energy or matter. But we can all too easily
         run out of brains.

- from "Profiles of the Future," 1963

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 11:50:58 2001
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Did Egyptians use kites (not kikes!) to raise the pyramids?  See:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/wnt_pyramid010624.html

Terry

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Wonder what Scott Little has been up to lately?  Examining a
strange flying disc. . .

http://www.nidsci.org/news/varistor.pdf

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 12:05:00 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <mccollydr aol.com>
Subject: Fw: Streisand Urges Fans to be Energy Efficient 
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:46:26 -0700
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In our free market system,   as long as someone has the money like Barbara
or corporate power to manipulate the energy prices  like Enron,  have
rights  to do what pleases them and their bottom line?
>From:
>http://www.nypost.com/06242001/news/nationalnews/33260.htm
>
>HYPOCRITE STREISAND TAKES THE HEAT
>By BRADEN KEIL
>
>June 24, 2001 -- Barbra Streisand is urging her fans to be more energy
>efficient - but she's not practicing what she preaches.
>
>She still flies on fossil fuel-sucking private jets, roams the roads in
>gas-guzzling limos and SUVs, and vacations on big power boats.
>
>She routinely keeps the central air conditioning blasting frigid air in her
>many homes - including her Manhattan penthouse - even when she's thousands
>of miles away.
>
>"She is someone who cannot be hot, not even for a minute," says a Streisand
>confidant. "Maybe it's menopause, but she refuses to sweat. She has her
>trainers over and it's like 30 degrees in her house. She freaks if she
walks
>into a warm room."
>
>A far cry from the energy-conservation advice on her Web site
>(http://www.barbrastreisand.com), where she implores fellow Californians to
>turn their thermostats up to 78 degrees when they're home, and 85 degrees
>when they're out.
>
>"She'd melt like the wicked witch in 'The Wizard of Oz' if her place was 78
>degrees, much less 85," our source noted.
>
>When asked what, if any, of the energy-saving advice on the Streisand Web
>site was being followed by the conservation-crusading star, her spokesman
>told a reporter last week, "She never meant that it necessarily applied to
>her."
>
>In her Central Park West triplex, which has been for sale for the past two
>years, the multizone air conditioning keeps the 16 rooms as cold as a meat
>locker.
>
>"At this point, it's just cold storage for all of her furs," growled one
>recent visitor.
>
>To insure that the ice princess doesn't thaw out, or melt, Streisand has
>installed a separate, industrial-size air-conditioning system just to keep
>her cavernous master bedroom super cool.
>
>On the West Coast, Streisand is an energy-consuming machine, sharing not
>one, but three houses with actor-Aamco-pitchman hubby James Brolin.
>
>The houses are on three acres of Malibu oceanfront - along with two pools,
>saunas, hot tubs, and lush landscaping that's kept in pristine condition by
>10 full-time gardeners.
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 13:20:38 2001
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Since the Wave-Circle/String-Circle Model implies that
generated EM field coupling to the gravitomagnetic field would require frequencies of
~ 1.03E25 Hz i.e.., wavelengths of about 2.9E-17 meters (which explains why matter is
Transparent to the gravitomagnetic field) it looks like the T.T. Brown and Wallace
Effects, that manipulate the Nuclear Spin Alignment of various materials are ways to
achieve antigravity/gravity-screening.

For the Wallace & Brown Effects see:

 http://home.att.net/~kfbrown/ng.html

http://soteria.com/brown/

Regards,    Frederick

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I have  very clear evidence there is  devices that convert forms of
neutrionos, gama rays and forms of magnetism to electricity.  these
individuals and you are  refering to are out of the loop.  The secret is
resonance of devices(mosfets  that are tuned to 10 to the 30th power  many
times the frequency of light.  2 electrical wizzards have done it and if you
have 10 million you can have a licence to the technology perhaps.  Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: R. Wormus <rwormus lock-load.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, June 16, 2001 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated


>Bruce,
>No, it is a fact. Read the info. at JLN's site.
>Ron
>
>On 16-Jun-01, Bruce Meland etimes teleport.com wrote:
>
>BM> I hope that was a sarcastic remark.
>BM> -----Original Message-----
>BM> From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
>BM> To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>BM> Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 12:38 PM
>BM> Subject: Re: Fw: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated
>BM>
>BM>
>BM>> Bruce -
>BM>>
>BM>> You do know that this isn't any kind of vacuum coherer or potential
>BM>> energy source, don't you? Even JLN and others on that list are clear
>BM>> on that.
>BM>>
>BM>> - Rick Monteverde
>BM>> Honolulu, HI
>BM>>
>BM>>
>BM>
>--
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 14:07:41 2001
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Terry Blanton  wrote:

>Wonder what Scott Little has been up to lately?  Examining a
>strange flying disc. . .
>http://www.nidsci.org/news/varistor.pdf

Tres Cool !

Thanks to Scott for writing up a careful investigation in such a way that it reads 
like a short Sci-Fi piece.  Just think what would have happened if one of the 
hyper-aggressive UFO proponents,  like Lt. Col. Philip J. Corso, had gotten 
hold of this object first?

Choices:
a) sent it over to EarthTech for testing... yeah, right.
b) stopped lab work when the bismuth showed up and called a press 
conference to announce undeniable proof of aliens 
c) written another silly book while inviting numerous ex-spook speakers over to 
gloat at a World Conference ($1000/pop).
d) still trying to use it to "call home"?
e) put it up for auction on eBay, starting bid $5 million

Hey, they solve 30 year old murders with a single strand of fiber left at the 
scene, yet in the "hundreds" of "verified" UFO encounters, not a single reptillian 
skin flake or silver jumpsuit fiber has turned up. Maybe they need to get the 
CSI team in on the investigation!!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 15:24:37 2001
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Subject: Re: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated
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Bruce -

At 12:29 PM -0700 6/25/01, Bruce Meland wrote:

>I have  very clear evidence there is  devices that convert forms of
>neutrionos, gama rays and forms of magnetism to electricity.

There is not and there will NEVER be any device that will produce 
usable amounts of electricity from any form of magnetism! Anyone that 
says they have one is just trying to sell you a free energy scam.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 18:02:53 2001
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> There is not and there will NEVER be any device that will produce
> usable amounts of electricity from any form of magnetism! Anyone that
> says they have one is just trying to sell you a free energy scam.

Spoken like a true graduate of the SMOT INSTITUTE OF MAGNETIC SCAMS,
Rick!

Even now, however, it's sometimes hard to pass up a pile of ceramic
magnets without grabbing for my balls (steel, that is).   :-)

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 19:38:57 2001
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:10:46 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Kiting the Pyramids
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Saw that!

I'd posted some stuff somewhere online a year or more ago about 
possibly windsurfing the pyramids. Those pivot arm rigs they've used 
over to lift water to the irrigation canals over there since ancient 
times - forget what they're called - just put a sail on those things 
and there's plenty of power to winch blocks up a really steep ramp 
like the side of a pyramid. Only enough of a dirt ramp to make it 
muddy would have been needed. Sails would be much simpler than kites, 
and more easily controllable. Synchronized sheeting in and out on a 
bunch of them ganged together and there's a *lot* of motive force on 
a good wind.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


>Did Egyptians use kites (not kikes!) to raise the pyramids?  See:
>
>http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/wnt_pyramid010624.html
>
>Terry

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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:05:09 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated
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Frank -

Right, and never mind the nutrioiosinios or whatever they were, I'm 
just talking about the magnetism. <g>

Actually there's these machines with magnets in them where you spin a 
shaft and supposedly electricity comes out of them. They have them in 
California I think, but they don't use them as much any more I hear.

Which makes me wonder, if there's some difference between "motional B 
fields" and "normal B fields" as has been claimed here and there, 
then wouldn't opposing one with the other leave some sort of residue 
hanging around, like free energy or mass fluctuations or something?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

>Rick Monteverde wrote:
>>
>> There is not and there will NEVER be any device that will produce
>> usable amounts of electricity from any form of magnetism! Anyone that
>> says they have one is just trying to sell you a free energy scam.
>
>Spoken like a true graduate of the SMOT INSTITUTE OF MAGNETIC SCAMS,
>Rick!
>
>Even now, however, it's sometimes hard to pass up a pile of ceramic
>magnets without grabbing for my balls (steel, that is).   :-)
>
>Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 21:09:29 2001
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Here you go Charles. Since you want a "bowl shape", silver the inside and the top
hemisphere of  the outside of a large glass globe/fishbowl, and adapt it to a high
school grade Van de Graaff Generator.

Set this "Leyden Jar" type Flying Saucer on a scale and tie the silver "hemisphere
cap" to earth ground, and fire it up.

With 500,000 volts or so on it, it should show a decent
weight reduction.

CAUTION: THE CAPACITANCE CHARGE ON THIS COULD BE LETHAL!!

Regards,   Frederick











From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 22:00:28 2001
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:08:07 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Kiting the Pyramids
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>Did Egyptians use kites (not kikes!) to raise the pyramids?  See:
>
>http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/wnt_pyramid010624.html
>
>Terry

***{There are ancient Egyptian paintings showing teams of slaves hauling
blocks of stone along using ropes, with other slaves pouring oil on the
ground in front of the stones to make them slide more easily. The question
is: what is the source of the aversion people have to accepting the
testimony of the ancient Egyptians themselves, regarding how they moved the
blocks into place? --MJ}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 23:34:31 2001
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:32:57 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: The Green Nazis
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>
>latter. The ancient Germans, for example, worshiped trees and demons, and
>practiced human sacrifice. Their primary diety was a gigantic oak in the
>Black Forest of Germany which they called the Irmensul. From its limbs they
>hung prisoners captured in battle, upon whom they then inflicted the "death
>of a thousand cuts,"

How classically German of them.

>On the other hand, the infamous
>"Vlad the Impaler" was a Christian, and his treatment of prisoners was
>fully as horrible as that of the ancient Germans or the Aztecs: he had his

You have to realize that anyone can call them selves a Christian. 
Loving you enemies is oxymoronic to impaling them however. The 
organization that killed more Christians than any other was the Roman 
church, which is a mixture of paganism and Christianity. You will see 
that in the latter days, that they will return to this activity. They 
have declared Sunday to the the Sabbath, in contradiction of 
scripture and declared those of us who keep the seventh day Sabbath 
to be heretics, and you know what they do to heretics.

>  Since this character flaw is exhibited by monotheists and
>polytheists alike, you cannot decide how crazy a particular theist is, by

I think you would agree, Mitchell, that if there is a G-d who is 
planning a judgement, believing in him, and doing his will, is will 
is not crazy.

>merely knowing whether he thinks he believes in one god or many.

You have to realize that there are two superhuman beings who have 
both established monotheistic religions, Jehovah and Lucifer. Lucifer 
also established the pagan religions. Most Pagans don't realize this, 
but you can see it from their fruits.

>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>________________
>Quote of the month:
>
>"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." 
>--Voltaire

OTOH, as long as you can exchange that paper for what you want, you 
never want to forget that paper based investment yield interest.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 23:34:33 2001
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:32:57 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Hydro Environmental Resources, HERI
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>Vortexians,
>
It is a bit suspicious to anyone on this forum who follows alternative energy

I agree

>and have stock to sell you, BUT does anyone know anything about their
>process? I doubt it. The web site tells you little:
>http://hydrogenerate.com/home.html
>
>The company touts their "ElectroChem Hydrogen Fuel Reactor system" but

I'm suspicious of a company that doesn't have any contact information.

>
>  In the mean time don't forget to call your broker.

Nothing I ever learned in Chemistry could account for what they are 
claiming. I wouldn't invest unless I witnessed a demonstration of 
their technology.

>
>Regards,
>
>Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 23:34:38 2001
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:32:57 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Streisand Urges Fans to be Energy Efficient
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>
>  >
>>HYPOCRITE STREISAND TAKES THE HEAT
>>By BRADEN KEIL
>>
>  >June 24, 2001 -- Barbra Streisand is urging her fans to be more energy

This is a good one Bruce. I"m going to forward that email to Rush Limbaugh!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 25 23:36:18 2001
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:32:57 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated
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>Bruce -
>
>At 12:29 PM -0700 6/25/01, Bruce Meland wrote:
>
>>I have  very clear evidence there is  devices that convert forms of
>>neutrionos, gama rays and forms of magnetism to electricity.
>
>There is not and there will NEVER be any device that will produce 
>usable amounts of electricity from any form of magnetism! Anyone 
>that says they have one is just trying to sell you a free energy 
>scam.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI


Yah for $10,000,000


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 00:12:15 2001
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:10:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Green Nazis
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Thomas Malloy wrote:

>I think you would agree, Mitchell, that if there is a G-d who is
>planning a judgement, believing in him, and doing his will, is will
>is not crazy.

***{I'll grant that if the facts indicated the existence of a "God" (or of
"gods," for that matter)--which they don't--then believing in him (or them)
would not be crazy. However, that doesn't imply we ought to give a hoot in
hell about "doing his (or their) will," and you may rest assured that I
wouldn't. I don't like being ordered around, Thomas. Slavery is abhorrent
to me, regardless of whether I am to be ruled by men or by gods. Result: as
long as I remained vulnerable to being oppressed, I would ceaselessly
search for a way to extract myself from that situation. It is just the way
I am. --MJ}***

[snip]

>>"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero."
>>--Voltaire
>
>OTOH, as long as you can exchange that paper for what you want, you
>never want to forget that paper based investment yield interest.

***{If the Fed cuts rates by another half-point this week, the fed funds
rate will be less than the rate of inflation, and storable
commodities--e.g., gold and silver--will begin to pay interest. Rogue
banks, for example, will be able to borrow at the fed funds rate, buy gold,
and pay the interest out of part of the rate of increase in the gold price,
keeping the remainder for themselves as profit. Most would not dare to
offend the Fed by doing that, of course, but the point is that as more and
more market interest rates fall below the rate of inflation, more and more
people will be in a position to borrow at less than the rate of inflation,
put the money in storable commodities, and lock in a sure profit. Result:
gold, silver, and other storable commodities will blow out, and begin a
massive new bull market, while stock markets and paper currencies crash.
--MJ}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 01:20:04 2001
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
References: <000601c0fb92$489cb380$7647a2ac default>
Subject: Re: New devices to block out DEW and Gravity DEW
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:20:55 +0100
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Anybody else getting sick of this longwinded Thomas Clark and his Radiation
Health Foundation rubbish? - no wonder we don't see Scott Little here much
anymore...

Nick Palmer


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 03:57:52 2001
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Subject: Re: Kiting the Pyramids
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:58:43 -0700
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Before we get carried away, so to speak, consider the following facts about
Khufu, the Great Pyramid:

Built in 23 years according to historical records.
Contains an estimated 2.3 million 'core' limestone blocks.
"Average" weight of blocks 2.5 tons, some much larger.
Assume 180 work days per year, 8 hours labor per day.
That's 1.1 block per minute, quarried, prepared and placed.
Mass flow about 5500 lb/min., sustained for 23 years.

That production rate is conveniently ignored in most scenarios about pyramid
construction, because it blows the model out of the water. They don't work,
because the authors are looking in the wrong place and wind up with a great
mystery.

It could be done, using a materials technology available to the ancient
Egyptians, utilizing a soft, clay-bearing limestone abundant at the Giza
plateau. It disaggregates when soaked in water, but with some additives a
cement is formed which adheres to the limestone and hardens to stone-like
strength and hardness. The composite can be poured or tamped into molds,
producing hard limestone with the appearance of native rock.

Building Khufu took only a few thousand men, doing seasonal work. Quite
doable when seen correctly. The man who saw it is Dr. Joseph Davidovits, a
chemist, who discovered the 'Geopolymer' technology in the 20th century and
realized that the essential chemistry was available in materials used daily
in ancient Egypt.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 05:42:34 2001
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
 
> There is not and there will NEVER be any device that will produce
> usable amounts of electricity from any form of magnetism!

But, Rick, *all* rotating generators use magnetism!  See, you
have this thing called a field coil . . .

Terry

hee, hee

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 07:28:20 2001
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Antigravity: Only a Materials Problem?
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:25:36 -0500
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In the Biefield-Brown Effect, the "Tug of War" between
the Electrical and the Gravitational Field Susceptibilities of
the nucleons/atoms suggests that a materials optimization
problem exists.

Since it is rather obvious that the Gravitational Field is
Immutable, the only recourse is to electrically align the nucleons/atoms of  the
"shell" of a "craft" so that it's gravitational field Repels the gravitational field
of the Earth, or the Sun or other large masses.

 T. T. Brown's experiments as well as those of  H. Wallace were pointing in this
direction.

Using the Van de Graaff generator configuration, where a large metal cavity with a
dielectric/insulating-coating covered by a lightweight conductive coating with the
resulting high intensity electric field should be able to align the nucleons/atoms of
the dielectric/insulating-coating so that they repel the Gravitational Field.

This results in No Net Charge for the craft, since the high intensity field is
generated by using the Van de Graaff to "pump" electrons from the outer coating into
the metal cavity which is a field-free region that can be occupied hazard-free by
operating personnel.

The energy necessary to run the "pump" can be approximated by the energy, w = 1/2CV^2
times efficiency factor, plus losses. IOW, there is No Free Lunch.
Interestingly the Corning type 008 Soda Lime glass has a dielectric constant of 8.0
and a dielectric strength of 3,000 to 8,000 volts/mil.

OTOH, the higher dielectric constant materials may not necessarily be the materials
required for optimization.

Regards,    Frederick







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 07:44:57 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <rhf rhfweb.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <temalloy@metro.lakes.com>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
Subject: Re: Polarization Technologies For Gravity Waves (Arrays of Know How)
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temalloy metro.lakes.com 

Dear Mr. Thomas Malloy:

Thank you for sending me an email in response to my email on 
Polarization Technologies For Gravity Waves  You mentioned
"This is the first I've heard of Nutrino amplification, tell me
more.".  I just read a U.S. military manual in government
documents in Ashland Oregon Library, in 1997, which listed
U.S. military arrays of technical know how but it did list any
details. I photocopied a few page in manual in relation to laser
technologies which I was interested in at the time. I just posted
some of the technologies off of the list at the vortex email list. I
am presently focusing my time on developing sound/aehter
force fields similar to Keely's force fields, since they require
very little power and few moving parts. I do not presently have
the funds to research and produce such complex  technologies 
as subatomic nuclear accelerators or amplification techniques.
But I am interested in reading about the sub atomic
technologies, in case I ever come across the funds and
legitimate legal permission to develop such technologies. 

Respectively,


Thomas Clark
Email: tom rhfweb.com
Web site: www.rhfweb.com\personal





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 07:44:57 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <rhf rhfweb.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
Subject: Sound/Magnetic-Electrical Belt force Fields to Block out all DEW
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:17:10 -0700
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Sound/Magnetic-Electrical Belt force Fields to Block out all
DEW

I am presently working on a device which requires very little
energy, and no moving  parts and can be made form metal pipes
to create a perfect resonant force field around any object
including the human body to block out DEW. I am taking the
basic higher light resonant frequencies for the human body and
other spherical objects, and then translating those frequencies
into proportionate sound/cosmic waves. Those sound/cosmic
waves can be produced by metal pipes and instruments similar
to a keyboard or violin. One can make a small belt with no
electrical parts or complex parts other than precise
proportionate energy wave guides in relation to the human
object field which one can wear which produces the unique
tones to create a perfect resonant force field around the human
body which should be able to block out all DEW. Such force
field can be of sound or other cosmic or magnetic  electrical
energies. Such devices are not illegal to build as far as I know,
since such technologies do not officially exist, according
misinformation scientific dogmas.

Respectively,

Thomas Clark
Email: tom rhfweb.com
Web site: www.rhfweb.com\personal






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 08:36:54 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Green Nazis
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:41:47 -0700
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On Sunday 24 June 2001 21:41, thomas malloy wrote:
> >  >I was reading the other day that if you grind up 100 tons of granite
> >>and process it you can recover 5 pounds of uranium. I had no idea
> >>that it was so plentiful.
> >
> >***{Yup, I've read that lots of places. Here's one of them:
> >
> >Bottom line: we ain't ever gonna run out of uranium, regardless of the
> >future availability of fossil fuels. (This civilization may collapse due to
> >lack of *access* to nuclear energy, of course--e.g., thanks to the mindless
> >crusades of the green Nazis--but that's another kettle of fish altogether.)
> >
> >"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." 
> >--Voltaire
> 
> Particularly true given the new grinder technology that I will be 
> posting as soon as I get permission.
> 
> BTW, ethical vegetarianism, not eating animals because you believe in 
> their inherent rights, ecological consciousness, holding the 
> environment to be of a higher importance than human beings and Nazism 
> all spring from a common root. Paganism. Does this make sense based 
> on your paraadigm Mitchell? I makes perfect sense based on mine.

All these 'izms'!  So little common sense!  Makes one think that the
funny mushrooms have proliferated and sent their whatevers into
the air for everyone to 'ingest'.  Besides, what is wrong with 'paganism'?
Paganism stands for not anything really, or whatever is different from
YOUR particular trendy opiate of the masses, as Lenin would put it.
All those 'ism's' get in the way of understanding by forcing a two
dimensional view of the universe through a screen of pigeonholes.
Progress is not made that way.  Classification of some things is fine.
Carried to extremes it progressively evolves into prejudice and
stigmatization based petty differences.  As the Jews would say:
  .........."Enough already!"

Standing Bear
rockcast net-link.net

We need not search the world for 'nutzies', they are all around us,
creating small boxes enabling dimwits to confuse understanding
with obfuscation and confusion.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 08:53:42 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Kiting the Pyramids
In-Reply-To: <001601c0fe48$43457620$d456ccd1 asus>
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>It could be done, using a materials technology available to the ancient
>Egyptians, utilizing a soft, clay-bearing limestone abundant at the Giza
>plateau. It disaggregates when soaked in water, but with some additives a 
>cement is formed which adheres to the limestone and hardens to stone-like 
>strength and hardness.

I have read about this hypothesis, but I do not think it is correct. I saw 
a documentary on PBS many years ago made by an archeologist and a hundred 
or so Egyptians from their national museum. Using primitive tools, 
techniques animal and human power (but some modern safety equipment), they 
quarried several blocks the size of those used in the pyramids, transported 
them a considerable distance, and built a partial miniature pyramid maybe 
20 meters tall, with the same angles, distances and stresses as full scale 
construction would require. Of course it was remarkable engineering, and 
difficult, dangerous work, but it was easy to see that in 20 years a large 
group of workers could have built the full scale pyramids. The economic 
system, agriculture food storage warehouses could easily support the 
required number of workers. Much larger facilities and better logistics 
were needed for armies and wars.

I believe the quarries for the pyramids are known to be at Arabian 
Mountain, on the other side of the Nile.

I have seen similar documentaries showing a few hundred people moving and 
raising a concrete block the same size as the Stonehenge components, and 
people on Easter Island cutting and moving aku-aku statues. The Great Wall 
of China was constructed from huge blocks of stone. In modern time, the 
U.S. transcontinental railroad was built almost entirely with animal and 
manpower, except for the use of black powder for tunnelling, which 
proceeded at 1 foot per day, per face.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 09:22:41 2001
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Dickenson" <jdickenson hessel.com>
To: "'Frederick Sparber'" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 8:41 AM
Subject: String Circle Theory

Hi Jim,

I'll try to pull this together for you.


> Dear Fred,
>
> I really enjoyed reading your String Circle paper, I was going over
> it last night. I have a couple of questions on how you did some derivations
> and it's probably because I'm a bit rusty in physics these days ;)
>
> I'm not completely clear on how you did the conversion of the Big G
> to the em units

This was arrived at by a lot of trial-and-error number crunching.  :-)

The force, F  between two undilated magnetic "point poles" or current loops, M1 & M2
where M is in Ampere-Meters:

F = 1.0E-7*M1*M2/R^2

Here: 1.0E-7*4.8E-11^2/1^2 = 2.304E-28  nt, the same value as kq^2  (much to my
surprise) indicates that the
dilated Ampere-Meters of  1.43E-29 (0.02583 times the String Circle mass) is showing
the magnitude of the time dilation:

4.8E-11/1.43E-29 = 3.36E18

On a hunch I divided Big  G  by 1.0E-7 and took the square root of it (since G is a
squared-quantity times a constant):  Fg = 6.67E-11*m1*m2/R^2  (nt)

(6.67E-11/1.0E-7)^1/2 = 0.02583 Ampere-Meters/Kg

Thus for the Earth's g force Fg on a 1.0 Kg mass:

Fg = 1.0E-7 * 0.02583*5.98E24*0.02583*1.0/6.38E6^2 =  9.8 nt

A numbers trick?  I think/hope not.:-)

> and  I am also a little unclear of where the 4.8E-11 is
> derived.

First of all the String Circle radius is derived:

R = kq^2/E

E for a String Circle 1/3 the mass of a proton = 5.0E-11 (joule).

Then R = 2.304E-28/5.0E-11 = 4.6E-18  (meters)

Then to get the undilated 4.8E-11 Ampere-Meter "Loop
Displacement Current":

I = q*f  = 1.6E-19*1.04E25 = 1.66E6  (Amperes)

Then I*2(pi)R = 1.66E6*2(pi)*4.6E-18 = 4.8E-11 Ampere-Meters.

> It's been a long time since I have done much in SR.

The time dilation effect due to the constant acceleration
of the String Circle which is derived from GR. IOW the circling velocity is c, but the
direction is constantly changing, thus the slowing of the "clock"(in this case the
frequency f or displacement current I is reduced by ~18 orders of magnitude) due to
the constant acceleration, thus the weak gravity field.
>
> If you don't mind expanding a bit on your derivations, I would
> greatly appreciate it :)  and please feel free to post this and any replies
> to the group.

Thanks for the note.  I hope this helps.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> Thanks and Best Regards,
>
> Jim Dickenson.
>
>
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 11:17:51 2001
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Subject: Fw: Bush Privatizes UFO Information to "NIDS"
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-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Bailey <pgb padrak.com>
To: BCC: UFO_Send_List <pgb padrak.com>
Date: Monday, June 25, 2001 5:34 PM
Subject: FWD: Bush Privatizes UFO Information to "NIDS"


FWD:

Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:11:47 -0700
From: drboylan <drboylan jps.net>
X-Accept-Language: en,es-MX
To: ufotruth <UFOTruth listbot.com>,
         drrichboylanreports <DrRichBoylanReports listbot.com>
Subject: Bush Privatizes UFO Informatio to "NIDS"
X-Rcpt-To: pgb padrak.com

        Bush Privatizes UFO Information To "NIDS"
                         by
                 Richard Boylan, Ph.D.


         My comments in full on the news release below would be
unprintable.
You may have read my recent article on NIDS. (Reprinted below
"news release" below.) The fact that NIDS gets a foot in the
door with FAA under the Bush-Cheney Administration is
prima-facie evidence that "W" is a patsy, whether "witting" or
unwittingly, of Cabal assets.
         Bush has taken Republican "privatization" initiatives
to new
heights (or depths) by trying to "privatize" the UFO/ET
contact phenomenon! As if!!
         Of course, he is only doing in a more public fashion
what the
Cabal has been doing for five decades -- treating UFO/ET
information, captured ET vehicles and individuals, and
technology as private corporate property (sic).
         It looks like George W. will take us from the UFO
Cover-Up to
UFO-Privatization without ever going through the step of UFO
Public Disclosure. Thus goes participatory democracy under
President Bush II.

                                 - Richard Boylan, Ph.D.

xxxxxxxxxx (thanks to Paola Harris for forwarding the news
release below)_

>  >NIDS Becomes Only Official Organization to Receive UFO Reports from
the
>  >Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)
>  >
>  >NIDS is pleased to announce that the newly printed Federation
Aviation
>  >Administration (FAA) manuals indicate the National Institute for
Discovery
>  >Science (NIDS) as the sole contact point in the United States to
which the
>  >FAA reports UFOs.
>  >
>  >The following four FAA Manuals contain the changes:
>  >FAA Order 7110.65, Air Traffic Control
>  >FAA Order 7210.3, Facility Operation and Administration
>  >Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM)
>  >Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP)
>  >
>  >The FAA wording of the order mandating the changes is as follows: “In
>  >calendar year 1999, representatives from the National Institute for
>  >Discovery Sciences (NIDS) contacted the FAA Administrator to offer
their
>  >research institution as the single point of contact recognized by the
FAA
>  >in regard to UFO information. On April 14, 2000, after being referred
by
>  >the FAA Administrator, NIDS representatives met with ATP-200 to
finalize a
>  >course of action. This document change proposal is a result of that
>  >meeting and is official FAA recognition that NIDS is the single point
of contact for UFO research.”
>  >
>  >The official date for all FAA offices to receive the new manuals is
July
>  >12, 2001, but NIDS has confirmed that many FAA offices have already
>  >received the manuals.

++++++++++
         A reply from Dr. Richard Boylan:

    NIDS, the so-called "National Institute For Discovery
Science", is made to sound like some public-purpose academic
organization. In actuality, it is the  rivate holding of
shadowy billionaire Robert Bigelow, a Las Vegas casinos
operator who is closely allied with rogue
military-intelligence psy/psi-warfare officers suspected of
being part of the renegade UFO Cover-Up Cabal.
         Bigelow uses his billions to buy certain scientists
who have worked in classified ET-tech projects. Then he gets
them to work for him, ferreting out data about things like ET
craft technology and dimensional portals.
         Most of what his stable of scientists learn is kept
private by Bigelow. He orders a few crumbs of information to
be thrown out to the public from time to time to keep up the
illusion that NIDS is a public-service enterprise. Nothing
could be farther from the truth.
         The Cabal wants ET technology, and the wealth and
power which come from possessing it, all to themselves.

                                         Richard Boylan, Ph.D.


Richard J. Boylan, Ph.D., CCHT, LLC       Post Office Box
22310, Sacramento, CA 95822, USA. (916) 422-7479
E-mail: drboylan jps.net        URL: www.jps.net/drboylan

         You are invited to join his informational reports and
conversations on-line list, UFOTruth by going to
http://UFOTruth.listbot.com and clicking on the Subscribe
button and following directions.
         You may instead wish to join his personal reports-only
list (no conversations), DrRichBoylanReports by subscribing
at:
http://DrRichBoylanReports.listbot.com
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 12:53:37 2001
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:53:23 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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China measures gravity anomaly during eclipse:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/china-01zi.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 13:03:42 2001
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:57:32 -1000
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Subject: Re: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated
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Yes, fell on my face trying to make funny. I imagined someone writing 
that in 1840 or so, before Faraday figured it all out. No need to rub 
it in! Also note the hedge - no "usable" amounts. Even if I got a 
level rollaway, I don't know what I'd use it for.

- Rick

>Rick Monteverde wrote:
>
>> There is not and there will NEVER be any device that will produce
>> usable amounts of electricity from any form of magnetism!
>
>But, Rick, *all* rotating generators use magnetism!  See, you
>have this thing called a field coil . . .
>
>Terry
>
>hee, hee

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 13:23:15 2001
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From: "Adam Cox" <merlyn_x hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Chinese Foucault's Pendulum
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:22:10 -0500
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With the gravitational attraction of the moon added to that of the sun, one 
would expect that objects would appear to weigh slightly less during the 
eclipse, not from shielding effects but simply from the opposing forces.  a 
truly interesting experiment would be to take similar measurements on the 
opposite side of the earth from the total eclipse.

Merlyn
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 13:36:48 2001
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:35:49 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Chinese Foucault's Pendulum
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Adam Cox wrote:

>With the gravitational attraction of the moon added to that of the sun, 
>one would expect that objects would appear to weigh slightly less during 
>the eclipse, not from shielding effects but simply from the opposing forces.

Surely the Chinese and the APS Physics Review D editors know that! I assume 
they took that into account and observed an additional anomaly.


>   a truly interesting experiment would be to take similar measurements on 
> the opposite side of the earth from the total eclipse.

Perhaps, but then again maybe the mass of the earth would interfere. 
Perhaps you have to compare a place where the sun is normally, where it is 
screened, and it reappears soon after. At the opposite side of the earth 
the sun is always screened by a much larger body than the moon.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 13:46:13 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "John Bryan" <jbryan micron.net>
Subject: Re: Toyota announces progress in hybrid vehicles
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:28:29 -0700
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The THS-C hybrid system, similar to THS-M was introduced at EVS-17 in
Montreal that I and a few  reporters and photographers from Electrifying
Times attended.  It is called the Post-Prius hybrid system for larger
vehicles such as mini vans. It has a essentially a Prius type drive train in
the front with a  CVT and a rear electric motor drive system which
eliminates a drive shaft to the rear wheels. All motors are computer
connected. In a few years, when they get the bugs out of it, it will be
introduced to the US. Last weekend Toyota flew me to Hebron KY for the
launch of the worlds first AC Drive electric fork lift(they call them trucks
in the handling industry). It has worlds first regenerative breaking system
which puts electricity back into the batteries when breaking, decellerating
and switching from forward to reverse or reverse to forward. Toyota just
launched the worlds first hybrid fuel cell vehicle in Japan, in the Toyota
Highlander (new mid size SUV). Details will be on our web site soon as
Electrifying Times will be first to reveal the fuel cell technology here in
the US. Toyota's fuel cell systems run on methanol with a onboard reformer
that converts methanol to hydrogen, thus eliminates costly  onboard high
pressure tanks required for liquid hdrogen and costly hydrogen storage
infrastructure at service stations. Methanol storage tanks an service
stations is no problem.  Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 12:22 PM
Subject: Toyota announces progress in hybrid vehicles


>The Yomiuri newspaper reports that Toyota is pleased with the sales of the
>Prius hybrid automobile, which have reached 50,000 in Japan and 10,000
>overseas. Toyota plans to expand production of hybrid vehicles to 300,000
>per year by 2004. It announced two other initiatives
>
>The Estima Hybrid minivan. This car will seek seven passengers and features
>four-wheel electric drive with regenerator breaking. It gets 18 km/l of
>gasoline (42 mpg), with a range of 1000 km per tank. NOx and other
>pollution is 75% below the 2000 standards. The car has a 1500 watt 100V AC
>outlet, intended for people who want to use computers or hairdryers on the
>road, but I imagine it would also be good to have during power outages.
>(Power outages are much rarer in Japan than Atlanta.)
>
>A so-called "mild hybrid engine" compatible with existing engines. It is
>described as a "simple, easy-to-adapt hybrid system called THS-M (Toyota
>Hybrid System-Mild)." It reduces fuel consumption 15%, and reduces
>emissions to 50 percent below 2000 standards. The battery and electric
>motor accelerate from a standing stop to low speeds, when ICE are least
>effective. The electric motor acts as a generator, recharging the battery
>during deceleration, breaking and idling. It will be available as an option
>on many of Toyota's existing product line by the end of this year.
>
>These products will only be available in Japan for the time being.
>
>Honda announced that it sold 573 Insight hybrid electric vehicles in April
>2001. This compares with 34,044 Accords, their best-selling model. They
>have sold a total of 5419 Insights in the U.S. Worldwide sales are not
>available. Honda says it is losing money on each sale, but within a few
>years it expects to ramp sales up to 10,000 units per year and it will
>begin to clear a profit. Honda announced it will begin selling a hybrid
>version of the Civic in Japan in 2001, and in North America and Europe in
>2002. Comparing the Insight to the Toyota prius, driver reviews in the
>trade magazines and newspapers say the Prius is more like a standard
>automobile and has better performance.
>
>No U.S. or European automaker has demonstrated or announced a production
>hybrid vehicle. The Administration's National Energy Policy mentions them
>once"create an income tax credit for the purchase of hybrid and fuel cell
>vehicles to promote fuel-efficient vehicles." As things now stand, this
>would be a subsidy for Toyota and Honda. In a few years, the Japanese
>manufacturers will be far ahead on the learning curve, and they will be
>selling standard models with a hybrid engine option, at a profit.
>
>Sources:
>
>Yomiuri newspaper
>
>http://pressroom.toyota.com/
>
>http://www.toyota.com/html/about/news/archive/press_release/environment/doc
s/2001/20010615_estima.jsp
>
>http://www.insightcentral.net/sales.html
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 13:46:33 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: "John Bryan" <jbryan4 mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: Fighting with Tom!
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:55:44 -0700
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Hi John Tell Tom just because he did a search on the internet is no reason
to believe that viable neutrino battery type  technology does not exist. I
know for a fact it does and will be forwarding some more info to Vortex,
that is, what i am allowed to publish about the devices. Actually it is not
a convential battery, just a device that entrains neutrinos and perhaps
other electro-magnetic particles or waves  coming from the  sun, cosmos,
earths magnetic field.  The devices range from perhaps switching devices
tuned to frequencies higher than light, counter rotating disks that entrain
high frequenciey particles and waves and convert them  to electricity. Stay
tuned, at very high frequencies, that is. Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: John Bryan <jbryan4 mindspring.com>
To: bruce meland <etimes teleport.com>
Date: Monday, June 25, 2001 6:48 PM
Subject: Fighting with Tom!


>Hi Bruce!
>
>Tom said:
>
>i just did a search and all i found on the neutrino battery
>was that it's essentially a dead issue at the moment.
>maybe there's some "new news" but i didn't come across
>any.
>
>see link below for something similar:
>http://www.rqm.ch/engl/inhalt.htm
>
>your comment about acceleration and top speed is agreed
>since i have worked at reliance electric athens, ga.
>(the world's largest electric motor plant) and an electric
>motor would pull the shorts off you if you could supply
>enough juice. but lead-acid just wouldn't cut it no matter
>what control circuitry they tried. and the environmentalists
>would wind up screaming bloody murder about all the extra
>"killer lead" being incorporated. so from a strictly power-plant
>perspective, electric would be fine, even if most folks don't
>currently realize it, but the terciaries....
>
>i suppose if you keep your daily range (demands) way down
>your vehicle works but you won't be taking a 3000 mi vacation
>with 4 kids, a wife and luggage in it.  so if you "live within the
>(reasonable) operating parameters of the vehicle" you're ok.
>and right now, those parameters just don't cut it. if they did,
>people would be in mob gear clamoring for these vehicles,
>and they aren't.
>
>also, since it takes electricity which needs to be generated
>somewhere to charge it, that must go into the equation also
>as i stated. going solar for your particular use might be fine
>but for the average user, forget it. it would be easier to sell
>ice to an eskimo. most people can talk the talk but i notice
>that babs "everyone hang your clothes outside to dry and turn
>off everything electric" streisand has yet to be spotted within
>500 yards of a clothespin. and society is 99 and 44/100ths
>percent babs at heart. that's reality.
>
>so i'll just stick to my original point that there's a real long
>way to go before achieving a marketable substitute vehicle
>and i just don't realistically see it coming out of any present
>technological scheme. i believe at this point that it must come
>from something entirely new (as yet undiscovered).
>
>best regards
>
>ps- i boldly predict that your vehicle has no heat or air
>conditioning, radio, etc.
>am i wrong? (you get the picture)
>-we're up against some heavy demands.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> and I replied:
>
>
>Hi Tom,
>
>> but lead-acid just wouldn't cut it no matter
>> what control circuitry they tried.
>
>        There's a group of us that drag race electric cars
>http://www.nedra.com
>I've shot video of Dodge Vipers and even super built muscle cars
>getting blown away by electrics. The EVs are all are running
>lead acid and high powered silicon based controllers.
>
>> and the environmentalists would wind up screaming bloody murder
>> about all the extra "killer lead" being incorporated.
>
>        They are just believing the propaganda being circulated
>by the auto/oil industry. Lead acid batteries are a recycling
>success story. I think they may actually be the most recycled item
>in our society.
>
>> i suppose if you keep your daily range (demands) way down
>> your vehicle works but you won't be taking a 3000 mi vacation
>> with 4 kids, a wife and luggage in it.
>
>        That's my point, the trip you describe is not a daily
>range demand, at least for most people. I'll boldly predict
>that you didn't drive that far today. ;^)
>
>> so if you "live within the
>> (reasonable) operating parameters of the vehicle" you're ok.
>
>        Not many people know the range of their gas car, because
>when it gets low they just stop at the next gas station. To be
>fair to electrics in this comparison, you would have to make the
>refueling available for them too. What would be the reasonable
>operating parameters for a gas car if their were no gas stations
>except at home?
>
>> also, since it takes electricity which needs to be generated
>> somewhere to charge it, that must go into the equation also
>> as i stated.
>
>        If an SUV were to belly up to a power plant and supply
>the gas, it could run my car a very very long way. This EV is
>so efficient that after driving across town the motor heats up
>maybe 5 degrees and the controller about 2. This is all thanks
>to running high voltages and low current.
>
>> and society is 99 and 44/100ths
>> percent babs at heart. that's reality.
>
>        I couldn't agree with you more.
>
>> ps- i boldly predict that your vehicle has no heat or air
>> conditioning, radio, etc.
>> am i wrong? (you get the picture)
>> -we're up against some heavy demands.
>
>        I'm glad you predicted that. It all flows with what the general
>public thinks about EVs. I have a very powerful electric heater that
>runs at pack voltage (192 Volts), it provides instant heat (no waiting
>for an engine to warm up) and uses so little current at that voltage that
>it's power use is insignificant. My car didn't have air originally and
>doesn't have it now, but it could be added. Many EVs have air conditioning.
>Radio? I put in a very high powered stereo that blows most people away.
>
>        The general public seems to actually believe all these things that
>you've mentioned, which is why I built an EV that breaks all the rules.
>I know where you're coming from, I hear this stuff all the time. If you
>could ride in some of the new state of the art EVs and maybe attend our
>next drag race, it could very likely make a positive impression on you.
>
>...John
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 14:16:49 2001
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:13:04 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Bush Privatizes UFO Information to "NIDS"
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[snip]

>    NIDS, the so-called "National Institute For Discovery
>Science"

***{This is the outfit that, upon receiving a supposed "extraterrestrial
object"--i.e., a varistor that was popped off of a power line by a
lightning strike--immediately sent it to Earth Tech (Scott Little's
organization) for analysis. See http://www.nidsci.org/news/varistor.pdf.
--MJ}***

, is made to sound like some public-purpose academic
>organization. In actuality, it is the  rivate holding of
>shadowy billionaire Robert Bigelow, a Las Vegas casinos
>operator who is closely allied with rogue
>military-intelligence psy/psi-warfare officers suspected of
>being part of the renegade UFO Cover-Up Cabal.

***{The implication: Robert Bigelow is probably the "deep pockets" investor
behind Earth Tech. --MJ}***

>         Bigelow uses his billions to buy certain scientists
>who have worked in classified ET-tech projects.

***{Hal Puthoff, perhaps? --MJ}***

Then he gets
>them to work for him, ferreting out data about things like ET
>craft technology and dimensional portals.
>         Most of what his stable of scientists learn is kept
>private by Bigelow. He orders a few crumbs of information to
>be thrown out to the public from time to time to keep up the
>illusion that NIDS is a public-service enterprise. Nothing
>could be farther from the truth.
>         The Cabal wants ET technology, and the wealth and
>power which come from possessing it, all to themselves.
>
>                                         Richard Boylan, Ph.D.

***{Perhaps we should begin placing somewhat less weight on Scott Little's
negative CF results than we have in the past--myself included. --MJ}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:25:40 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: Fw: Bush Privatizes UFO Information to "NIDS"
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LOL - Scott-the-MIB. He'll have to order a can of that spray stuff 
from TV infomercial guru Ron Popiel so he can paint his beard black! 
Come to think of it, that thing's probably approaching ZZTop mass by 
now, so better order two cans.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



>***{Perhaps we should begin placing somewhat less weight on Scott Little's
>negative CF results than we have in the past--myself included. --MJ}***
>________________
>Quote of the month:
>
>"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." 
>--Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 26 20:19:44 2001
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:21:42 -0500
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Chung's Negative Resistance Replicated
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At 12:23 PM 6/25/01 -1000, you wrote:
>There is not and there will NEVER be any device that will produce usable 
>amounts of electricity from any form of magnetism! Anyone that says they 
>have one is just trying to sell you a free energy scam

Rick:

At least it is less vulgar then my goof up with "the B word"  :-)

Cheers


Charlie Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net 

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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At 09:02 PM 6/25/01 -0400, Francis Stenger wrote:


>Rick Monteverde wrote:
> >
> > There is not and there will NEVER be any device that will produce
> > usable amounts of electricity from any form of magnetism! Anyone that
> > says they have one is just trying to sell you a free energy scam.
>
>Spoken like a true graduate of the SMOT INSTITUTE OF MAGNETIC SCAMS,
>Rick!
>
>Even now, however, it's sometimes hard to pass up a pile of ceramic
>magnets without grabbing for my balls (steel, that is).   :-)
>
>Frank Stenger

Frank:

I just finished telling Rick that at least this was less vulgar then my "B 
word"  goof up.   Now you have just made it a contender...   :-)


Charlie Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net 

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Charles Ford wrote:
> 
....

> Frank:
> 
> I just finished telling Rick that at least this was less vulgar then my "B
> word"  goof up.   Now you have just made it a contender...   :-)

Sorry, Charlie, my head is wheeling around like a scene from "Vertigo"
as I try to adjust to Scott Little's tie-in to the "Dark Side"!!
		(((:-)))

Frank Stenger

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>  The devices range from perhaps switching devices
>tuned to frequencies higher than light, counter rotating disks that entrain
>high frequenciey particles and waves and convert them  to electricity. Stay
>tuned, at very high frequencies, that is. Bruce
>---
>  >

But does it heat water?

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>the air for everyone to 'ingest'.  Besides, what is wrong with 'paganism'?

It depends on wether or not my paradigm is correct doesn't it?

>Paganism stands for not anything really, or whatever is different from
>YOUR particular trendy opiate of the masses, as Lenin would put it.

That depends on wether Mitchell or I am correct about the existance 
of a creator G-d with a right to rule the Universe.

>All those 'ism's' get in the way of understanding by forcing a two
>dimensional view of the universe through a screen of pigeonholes.

Progress, OMHO is made when you view the Universe through the "lense" 
of your particular paradigm. Based on that paradigm you either 
notice, or fail to notice things, aspects, which either conflict or 
are predicted by your pet paradigm.

>Progress is not made that way.  Classification of some things is fine.
>Carried to extremes it progressively evolves into prejudice and
>stigmatization based petty differences.  As the Jews would say:
>   .........."Enough already!"

OTOH, with out classification, there would be no science or 
understanding of the Universe

>
>Standing Bear
>rockcast net-link.net
>
>We need not search the world for 'nutzies', they are all around us,
>creating small boxes enabling dimwits to confuse understanding
>with obfuscation and confusion.

Hum, I think most the dimwits are watching daytime TV


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 00:31:35 2001
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 02:15:39 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Bush Privatizes UFO Information to "NIDS"
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Bruce Meland posted this. Thank you Bruce, I ignored this when Pat 
sent it to me.
>
>         Bush Privatizes UFO Information To "NIDS"
>                          by
>                  Richard Boylan, Ph.D.
>
>
>          My comments in full on the news release below would be
>unprintable.
>You may have read my recent article on NIDS. (Reprinted below
>"news release" below.) The fact that NIDS gets a foot in the
>door with FAA under the Bush-Cheney Administration is
>prima-facie evidence that "W" is a patsy, whether "witting" or
>unwittingly, of Cabal assets.

I agree

>          Bush has taken Republican "privatization" initiatives
>to new
>heights (or depths) by trying to "privatize" the UFO/ET
>contact phenomenon! As if!!
>
>          A reply from Dr. Richard Boylan:
>
>     NIDS, the so-called "National Institute For Discovery
>Science", is made to sound like some public-purpose academic
>organization. In actuality, it is the  rivate holding of
>shadowy billionaire Robert Bigelow, a Las Vegas casinos
>operator

and real estate developer

>who is closely allied with rogue
>military-intelligence psy/psi-warfare officers suspected of
>being part of the renegade UFO Cover-Up Cabal.

When Robert was interviewed on the Art bell Program, I was quite 
impressed. He has a ranch where the "space brothers" have been 
putting appearances on a regular basis. He was talking about a video 
he has of one of them popping through a porthole.

>          Bigelow uses his billions to buy certain scientists
>who have worked in classified ET-tech projects. Then he gets
>them to work for him, ferreting out data about things like ET
>craft technology and dimensional portals.

I'd hate to write a grant attempting to get funding for me to study 
dimensional portals? I can hear the academics laughing at me already!

>          Most of what his stable of scientists learn is kept
>private by Bigelow.

One of whom is Hal Puthoff

>He orders a few crumbs of information to
>be thrown out to the public from time to time to keep up the
>illusion that NIDS is a public-service enterprise. Nothing
>could be farther from the truth.

Given the obfuscation that has characterized the government's 
reporting, or rather the lack of it, I don't think that Robert could 
possibly do a worse job.

>          The Cabal wants ET technology, and the wealth and
>power which come from possessing it, all to themselves.
>
>                                          Richard Boylan, Ph.D.
>
>
>Richard J. Boylan, Ph.D., CCHT, LLC       Post Office Box
>22310, Sacramento, CA 95822, USA. (916) 422-7479
>E-mail: drboylan jps.net        URL: www.jps.net/drboylan

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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 02:15:39 -0500
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Neutrino
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>temalloy metro.lakes.com
>
>Dear Mr. Thomas Malloy:
>I just read a U.S. military manual in government
>documents in Ashland Oregon Library, in 1997, which listed
>U.S. military arrays of technical know how but it did list any
>details. I photocopied a few page in manual in relation to laser
>technologies which I was interested in at the time.

OK

>I just posted
>some of the technologies off of the list at the vortex email list. I
>am presently focusing my time on developing sound/aehter
>force fields similar to Keely's force fields, since they require
>very little power and few moving parts.

have you visited Dale Pond's website at www.svpvril.com ? It is 
devoted to Keely

>I do not presently have
>the funds to research and produce such complex  technologies
>as subatomic nuclear accelerators or amplification techniques.
>But I am interested in reading about the sub atomic
>technologies, in case I ever come across the funds and
>legitimate legal permission to develop such technologies.
>
>Respectively,
>
>
>Thomas Clark
>Email: tom rhfweb.com
>Web site: www.rhfweb.com\personal

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Pat Bailey send this to me,

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for any of this to be 
commercially available, OTOH it might trigger a good thread.

>X-Rcpt-To: pgb padrak.com
>
>:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::
>
>EARTHCODE & INNER LIGHT NETWORK
>
>:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::
>
>Hey Folks!  More great news on free energy.  It's more available than we
>realize.  As global consciousness shifts into states of greater liberation
>in creativity, the world we live in reflects that state  of consciousness.
>Holding the vision for a bright future where everyone has what they need to
>live happy, peaceful and fulfilling lives is the very process by which new
>ideas, inventions and creations begin to manifest on earth.  What we focus
>our attention on, becomes greatly energized.  In this way, each of us can
>contribute to creating a future that serves the highest good for all.
>Namaste' - Paula Peterson
>
>
>:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::
>
>THE WORLD OF FREE ENERGY
>
>By Peter Lindemann, D.Sc.
>
>:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::
>
>In the late 1880's, trade journals in the electrical sciences were
>predicting "free electricity" in the near future. Incredible discoveries
>about the nature of electricity were becoming common place. Nikola Tesla
>was demonstrating "wireless lighting" and other wonders associated with
>high frequency currents. There was an excitement about the future like
>never before.
>
>Within 20 years, there would be automobiles, airplanes, movies, recorded
>music, telephones, radio, and practical cameras. The Victorian Age was
>giving way to something totally new. For the first time in history, common
>people were encouraged to envision a utopian future, filled with abundant
>modern transportation and communication, as well as jobs, housing and food
>for everyone. Disease would be conquered, and so would poverty. Life was
>getting better, and this time, everyone was going to get "a piece of the
>pie." So, what happened? In the midst of this technological explosion,
>where did the energy breakthroughs go? Was all of this excitement about
>"free electricity", which happened just before the beginning of the last
>century, all just wishful thinking that "real science" eventually
>disproved?
>
>Current State of Technology
>
>Actually, the answer to that question is NO. In fact, the opposite is true.
>Spectacular energy technologies were developed right along with the other
>breakthroughs. Since that time, multiple methods for producing vast amounts
>of energy at extremely low cost have been developed. None of these
>technologies have made it to the "open" consumer market as an article of
>commerce, however. Exactly why this is true will be discussed shortly. But
>first, I would like to describe to you a short list of "free energy"
>technologies that I am currently aware of, and that are proven beyond all
>reasonable doubt. The common feature connecting all of these discoveries,
>is that they use a small amount of one form of energy to control or release
>a large amount of a different kind of energy. Many of them tap the
>underlying aether in some way; a source of energy conveniently ignored by
>"modern" science.
>
>1) Radiant Energy.
>
>Nikola Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter, T. Henry Moray's Radiant Energy
>Device, Edwin Gray's EMA Motor, and Paul Baumann's Testatika Machine all
>run on Radiant Energy. This natural energy form can be gathered directly
>from the environment (mistakenly called "static" electricity) or extracted
>from ordinary electricity by the method called "fractionation." Radiant
>Energy can perform the same wonders as ordinary electricity, at less than
>1% of the cost. It does not behave exactly like electricity, however, which
>has contributed to the scientific community's misunderstanding of it. The
>Methernitha Community in Switzerland currently has 5 or 6 working models of
>fuelless, self-running devices that tap this energy.
>
>2) Permanent Magnets.
>
>Dr. Robert Adams (NZ) has developed astounding designs of electric motors,
>generators and heaters that run on permanent magnets. One such device draws
>100 watts of electricity from the source, generates 100 watts to recharge
>the source, and produces over 140 BTU's of heat in two minutes! Dr. Tom
>Bearden (USA) has two working models of a permanent magnet powered
>electrical transformer. It uses a 6-watt electrical input to control the
>path of a magnetic field coming out of a permanent magnet. By channeling
>the magnetic field, first to one output coil and then a second output coil,
>and by doing this repeatedly and rapidly in a "Ping-Pong" fashion, the
>device can produce a 96-watt electrical output with no moving parts.
>Bearden calls his device a Motionless Electromagnetic Generator, or MEG.
>Jean-Louis Naudin has duplicated Bearden's device in France. The principles
>for this type of device were first disclosed by Frank Richardson (USA) in
>1978. Troy Reed (USA) has working models of a special magnetized fan that
>heats up as it spins. It takes exactly the same amount of energy to spin
>the fan whether it is generating heat or not. Beyond these developments,
>multiple inventors have identified working mechanisms that produce motor
>torque from permanent magnets alone.
>
>3) Mechanical Heaters.
>
>There are two classes of machines that transform a small amount of
>mechanical energy into a large amount of heat. The best of these purely
>mechanical designs are the rotating cylinder systems designed by Frenette
>(USA) and Perkins (USA). In these machines, one cylinder is rotated within
>another cylinder with about an eighth of an inch of clearance between them.
>The space between the cylinders is filled with a liquid such as water or
>oil, and it is this "working fluid" that heats up as the inner cylinder
>spins. Another method uses magnets mounted on a wheel to produce large eddy
>currents in a plate of aluminium, causing the aluminium to heat up rapidly.
>These magnetic heaters have been demonstrated by Muller (Canada), Adams
>(NZ) and Reed (USA). All of these systems can produce ten times more heat
>than standard methods using the same energy input.
>
>4) Super-Efficient Electrolysis.
>
>Water can be broken into Hydrogen and Oxygen using electricity. Standard
>chemistry books claim that this process requires more energy than can be
>recovered when the gases are recombined. This is true only under the worst
>case scenario. When water is hit with its own molecular resonant frequency,
>using a system developed by Stan Meyers (USA) and again recently by Xogen
>Power, Inc., it collapses into Hydrogen and Oxygen gas with very little
>electrical input. Also, using different electrolytes (additives that make
>the water conduct electricity better) changes the efficiency of the process
>dramatically. It is also known that certain geometric structures and
>surface textures work better than others do. The implication is that
>unlimited amounts of Hydrogen fuel can be made to drive engines (like in
>your car) for the cost of water. Even more amazing is the fact that a
>special metal alloy was patented by Freedman (USA) in 1957 that
>spontaneously breaks water into Hydrogen and Oxygen with no outside
>electrical input and without causing any chemical changes in the metal
>itself. This means that this special metal alloy can make Hydrogen from
>water for free, forever.
>
>5) Implosion/Vortex.
>
>All major industrial engines use the release of heat to cause expansion and
>pressure to produce work, like in your car engine. Nature uses the opposite
>process of cooling to cause suction and vacuum to produce work, like in a
>tornado. Viktor Schauberger (Austria) was the first to build working models
>of Implosion Engines in the 1930's and 1940's. Since that time, Callum
>Coats has published extensively on Schauberger's work in his book Living
>Energies and subsequently, a number of researchers have built working
>models of Implosion Turbine Engines. These are fuelless engines that
>produce mechanical work from energy accessed from a vacuum. There are also
>much simpler designs that use vortex motions to tap a combination of
>gravity and centrifugal force to produce a continuous motion in fluids.
>
>6) Cold Fusion.
>
>In March 1989, two Chemists from Brigham Young University in Utah (USA)
>announced that they had produced atomic fusion reactions in a simple
>tabletop device. The claims were "debunked" within 6 months and the public
>lost interest. Nevertheless, Cold Fusion is very real. Not only has excess
>heat production been repeatedly documented, but also low energy atomic
>element transmutation has been catalogued, involving dozens of different
>reactions! This technology definitely can produce low cost energy and
>scores of other important industrial processes.
>
>7) Solar Assisted Heat Pumps.
>
>The refrigerator in your kitchen is the only "free energy machine" you
>currently own. It's an electrically operated heat pump. It uses one amount
>of energy (electricity) to move three amounts of energy (heat). This gives
>it a "co-efficient of performance" (COP) of about 3. Your refrigerator uses
>one amount of electricity to pump three amounts of heat from the inside of
>the refrigerator to the outside of the refrigerator. This is its typical
>use, but it is the worst possible way to use the technology. Here's why. A
>heat pump pumps heat from the "source" of heat to the "sink" or place that
>absorbs the heat. The "source" of heat should obviously be HOT and the
>"sink" for heat should obviously be COLD for this process to work the best.
>In your refrigerator, it's exactly the opposite. The "source" of heat is
>inside the box, which is COLD, and the "sink" for heat is the room
>temperature air of your kitchen, which is warmer than the source. This is
>why the COP remains low for your kitchen refrigerator. But this is not true
>for all heat pumps. COP's of 8 to 10 are easily attained with solar
>assisted heat pumps. In such a device, a heat pump draws heat from a solar
>collector and dumps the heat into a large underground absorber, which
>remains at 55° F, and mechanical energy is extracted in the transfer. This
>process is equivalent to a steam engine that extracts mechanical energy
>between the boiler and the condenser, except that it uses a fluid that
>"boils" at a much lower temperature than water. One such system that was
>tested in the 1970's produced 350 hp, measured on a Dynamometer, in a
>specially designed engine from just 100-sq. ft. of solar collector. (This
>is NOT the system promoted by Dennis Lee.) The amount of energy it took to
>run the compressor (input) was less than 20 hp, so this system produced
>more than 17 times more energy than it took to keep it going! It could
>power a small neighborhood from the roof of a hot tub gazebo, using exactly
>the same technology that keeps the food cold in your kitchen. Currently,
>there is an industrial scale heat pump system just north of Kona, Hawaii
>that generates electricity from temperature differences in ocean water.
>
>There are dozens of other systems that I have not mentioned, many of them
>are as viable and well tested as the ones I have just recounted. But this
>short list is sufficient to make my point: free energy technology is here,
>now. It offers the world pollution-free, energy abundance for everyone,
>everywhere. It is now possible to stop the production of "greenhouse gases"
>and shut down all of the nuclear power plants. We can now desalinate
>unlimited amounts of seawater at an affordable price, and bring adequate
>fresh water to even the most remote habitats. Transportation costs and the
>production costs for just about everything can drop dramatically. Food can
>even be grown in heated greenhouses in the winter, anywhere. All of these
>wonderful benefits that can make life on this planet so much easier and
>better for everyone have been postponed for decades. Why? Whose purposes
>are served by this postponement?
>
>The Opportunity
>
>What is starting to happen is that inventors are publishing their work,
>instead of patenting it and keeping it secret. More and more, people are
>"giving away" information on these technologies in books, videos and
>websites. While there is still a great deal of useless information about
>free energy on the Internet, the availability of good information is rising
>rapidly. Check out the list of websites and other resources at the end of
>this article.
>
>It is imperative that you begin to gather all of the information you can on
>real free energy systems. The reason for this is simple. Focus on what you
>can do now, not on how much there still is to be done. Small, private
>research groups are working out the details as you read this. Many are
>committed to publishing their results on the Internet.
>
>If we stand up and refuse to remain ignorant and action-less, we can change
>the course of history. It is the aggregate of our combined action that can
>make a difference. Only the mass action that represents our consensus can
>create the world we want. Nevertheless, free energy technology is here. It
>is real, and it will change everything about the way we live, work and
>relate to each other. In the last analysis, free energy technology
>obsoletes greed and the fear for survival. But like all exercises of
>Spiritual Faith, we must first manifest the generosity and trust in our own
>lives.
>
>The Source of Free Energy is INSIDE of us. It is that excitement of
>expressing ourselves freely. It is our Spiritually guided intuition
>expressing itself without distraction, intimidation or manipulation. It is
>our open-heartedness. Ideally, the free energy technologies underpin a just
>society where everyone has enough food, clothing, shelter, self-worth, and
>the leisure time to contemplate the higher Spiritual meanings of Life. Do
>we not owe it to each other, to face our fears, and take action to create
>this future for our children's children?
>
>The preceeding is an excerpt. The full version is available at:
>http://www.escribe.com/science/keelynet/m10192.html
>
>
>LIST OF RESOURCES:
>
>Books:
>
>Living Energies by Callum Coats
>
>The Free Energy Secrets of Cold Electricity by Peter Lindemann, D.Sc.
>
>Applied Modern 20th Century Aether Science by Dr. Robert Adams
>
>Physics Without Einstein by Dr. Harold Aspden
>
>Secrets of Cold War Technology by Gerry Vassilatos
>
>The Coming Energy Revolution by Jeanne Manning
>
>Websites:
>
>http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel/content1.htm
>developed by Geoff Egel in Australia. Best free-energy site on the net!
>
>http://www.free-energy.cc/
>developed by Clear Tech, Inc. and Dr. Peter Lindemann
>
>http://jnaudin.free.fr/
>developed by JLN Labs in France
>
>http://www.1dove.com/fe/index.html
>Jim's Free Energy Page in the USA
>
>http://www.keelynet.com/
>developed by Jerry Decker in the USA
>
>http://www.xogen.com
>site for super electrolysis technology
>
>http://www.rumormillnews.com
>excellent site for all kinds of alternative news, with many links
>
>Patents: (most can be viewed at http://www.delphion.com/ ) This list is
>nothing more than a sample of inventions that produce free energy.
>
>
>
>HAVE A GREAT DAY !!!!!
>
>:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::
>
>EARTHCODE & INNER LIGHT NETWORK
>PO Box 3395
>Santa Cruz, CA 95063 USA
>831-454-1440
>earthcode cruzers.com
>
>:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 02:04:00 2001
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 03:16:55 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Green Nazis
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>>the air for everyone to 'ingest'.  Besides, what is wrong with 'paganism'?
>
>It depends on wether or not my paradigm is correct doesn't it?
>
>>Paganism stands for not anything really, or whatever is different from
>>YOUR particular trendy opiate of the masses, as Lenin would put it.
>
>That depends on wether Mitchell or I am correct about the existance
>of a creator G-d with a right to rule the Universe.

***{There is no "right to rule," Thomas. There is only the power to rule,
and power never lasts: the best among the oppressed, eventually, will find
a way to be free. This applies regardless of whether the would-be
oppressors are "gods," "democrats," "republicans," or whatever. Slavery is
not a good thing, regardless of whether it takes place in "Heaven" or on
Earth. --MJ}***

>>All those 'ism's' get in the way of understanding by forcing a two
>>dimensional view of the universe through a screen of pigeonholes.
>
>Progress, OMHO is made when you view the Universe through the "lense"
>of your particular paradigm.

***{No, progress is made by those who adjust their paradigms to fit the
facts. --MJ}***

Based on that paradigm you either
>notice, or fail to notice things, aspects, which either conflict or
>are predicted by your pet paradigm.

***{Beliefs should be subjected to continuous criticism, by oneself and by
others, and that process should be accompanied by a continuous series of
adjustments, the magnitude of which, in each case, should be the minimum
necessary to eliminate contradictions. You should not be too quick to
abandon a belief, or too slow: there is a proper balance between the two,
and maintaining it is an art. What is sure, however, is that "pet"
paradigms should not be maintained. --MJ}***

>>Progress is not made that way.  Classification of some things is fine.
>>Carried to extremes it progressively evolves into prejudice and
>>stigmatization based petty differences.  As the Jews would say:
>>   .........."Enough already!"
>
>OTOH, with out classification, there would be no science or
>understanding of the Universe

***{True, but continuous adjustments in one's classifications are also
necessary, in response to the discovery of new facts--e.g., sometimes you
have to start imagining warm-blooded dinosaurs with feathers, regardless of
how many years you had habitually classified them as cold-blooded reptiles
with scales. A classification system that is frozen into stasis reflects
the dogmatism of a closed mind. --MJ}***

>>Standing Bear
>>rockcast net-link.net
>>
>>We need not search the world for 'nutzies', they are all around us,
>>creating small boxes enabling dimwits to confuse understanding
>>with obfuscation and confusion.
>
>Hum, I think most the dimwits are watching daytime TV.

***{I don't think there are any dimwits in this group. There are, however,
some who are guilty of compartmentalized thinking--which means: they apply
reason in some areas of their lives, but not in others. (You know who you
are. :-) --MJ}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 03:54:05 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Antigravity: Only a Materials Problem?
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 04:50:47 -0500
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In one of the Biefield-Brown articles it was stated that
"110% weight reduction was achieved".

This implies that the skin/superstructure of a craft that is made to go weightless
using high intensity electric fields should either be very large or very heavy, or
both, so that the "extra 10%" countergravity force can be used for lifting the crew,
cargo and the propulsion means.

The energy for charging the countergravity capacitors for
achieving weightlessness doesn't amount to much, but the
energy required for maneuvering the craft, crew and cargo is the same as that required
for a dirigible or a balloon in
the atmosphere.

However, once escape velocity is reached (in space) the weightlessness force becomes
the propulsive force.

Those large "flying saucer" shapes of UFOs are looking better all the time.   :-)

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 07:44:35 2001
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:40:57 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The Green Nazis
In-Reply-To: <a05010410b75db7517fa3 [205.215.192.198]>
References: <v04011703b75c89aacd44 [207.8.127.27]>
 <v04011700b75ab6348bf0 [207.8.127.93]>
 <v04011702b75a55b3c612 [207.8.127.165]>
 <v04011700b759d28c0005 [207.8.127.129]>
 <v04011700b759d28c0005 [207.8.127.129]>
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At 01:32 AM 6/26/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>  Since this character flaw is exhibited by monotheists and
>>polytheists alike, you cannot decide how crazy a particular theist is, by

And don't forget environmentalists, realists, economists and 
scientists.  Are all of the "ists" crazy too?   People will always hide 
behind titles to do deplorable things.

Always remember when you affiliate yourself with any group or organization 
by saying "I am a ____"  Someone will find the most deplorable thing that 
any "____" has done and hold you responsible for it.
Charlie Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net 

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 07:57:15 2001
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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:53:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Hydro Environmental Resources, HERI
In-Reply-To: <a05010411b75dc566cf31 [205.215.192.198]>
References: <0GFH004B6PU1K8 mta8.pltn13.pbi.net>
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At 01:32 AM 6/26/01 -0500, you wrote:

>>The company touts their "ElectroChem Hydrogen Fuel Reactor system" but
>
>I'm suspicious of a company that doesn't have any contact information.
>
>>
>>  In the mean time don't forget to call your broker.
>
>Nothing I ever learned in Chemistry could account for what they are 
>claiming. I wouldn't invest unless I witnessed a demonstration of their 
>technology.

Hay is this one of those Mafia front company scams I saw on the news?  You 
know they put up something attractive and sell it out to investors but 
there is no real assets or real product to the organization so when it 
folds up your money just vanishes.

Even if not. After the fall of the dot com's I would definitely require a 
demo...
Charlie Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net 

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 09:31:05 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: "Remy C." <remyc prodigy.net>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: real costs for oil
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-----Original Message-----
From: Saint-Hilaire <saint-hilaire promci.qc.ca>
To: Ami(e)s de la <quasiturbine promci.qc.ca>
Date: Saturday, February 17, 2001 8:41 PM
Subject: Quasiturbine - Le vrai coût du pétrole ?


>Le vrai coût du pétrole ?
>
>"When externalities such as environmental and health costs, the loss of
>domestic jobs and basic industries, the trade deficit, commitments of
>military resources to ensure the free flow of oil from the Middle East, and
>threats to our energy and national security are included, the true cost of
>imports exceeds $100 a barrel, according to the General Accounting Office."
> http://www.obeleoil.com/oilshock2.htm
>By retired Air Force General G. Lee Butler, Chief Air Planner
>for Operation Desert Storm, stated in the Wall Street Journal.
>
>Rappelons-nous que la Quasiturbine fait meilleur usage du pétrole !
>
>Salutations, Gilles
>http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca
>*********************************************

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begin:vcard 
n:Saint-Hilaire;Gilles
tel;fax:514-527-9530
tel;work:514-527-8484
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca
org:Président par intérim;Quasiturbine Tronçonneuses Inc.
adr:;;Casier 2804 - 3535 Papineau;Montréal;Québec;H2K4J9;Canada
version:2.1
email;internet:quasiturbine promci.qc.ca
title:Gilles Saint-Hilaire
note:La Quasiturbine : Un moteur respectueux de l'environnement ...!
fn:quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca
end:vcard

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 10:55:54 2001
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:51:14 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: real costs for oil
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I cannot find the article on this web page 
(http://www.obeleoil.com/oilshock2.htm) that says oil really costs $100 per 
barrel, but I did find a hilarious statement in another article titled What 
Will Replace Oil, written by someone with an terminal case of tunnel 
vision. The article has exactly one statement addressing the issue raised 
in the title. It is correct as far as it goes:


"What Will Replace Oil?

One thing is certain, long before the lights are turned off and we are 
forced to huddle around fires for warmth, a viable replacement for oil 
*will be found*. However, as there is little currently on the horizon that 
falls into this category, we will not dwell long on the subject."


Indeed, they do not dwell on it at all, anywhere. I imagine someone writing 
in 1840, "we will find a viable source of oil after all the whales are 
killed, but there is little currently on the horizon . . ." Viable 
replacements for oil can be found everywhere you turn, ranging from next 
generation fission, to wind power, to cold fusion. There are dozens of 
potential sources, and many of them are close to being economically 
competitive, even though they have not been mass produced or given half a 
chance. The problem is not that we have too few choices, but too many. The 
government hands over billions of dollars in subsidies and protection money 
to oil, and $3.6 billion per year to nuclear power. If it offered that kind 
of largess to wind power or cold fusion for a few years they would be far 
cheaper and better than oil.

I think it would actually help if we started running out of oil, or if OPEC 
would turn the screws and double the cost, but neither event is likely. It 
is often said that the stone age did not end because we ran out of stone. 
The oil age will not end because we find ourselves running out of oil, or 
because oil pollution kills people and makes our lives miserable. It will 
end when something cheaper and better overcomes heavy handed industry and 
government support for oil and other obsolete technology.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 11:26:56 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <rhf rhfweb.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
Subject: Model of All  Energies(Gravity Etc.) of  the Human Body & Environment
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:58:33 -0700
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Model of All  Energies(Gravity Etc.) of  the Human Body &
Environment

I have listed below a model that I have developed of 
all the energy vortex feedback and feed forward
loops for all Energies of all natural systems to better explain
how Gravitons or gravity waves may work. 

First I will list all definitions of all Energies to be discussed in
terms of Holograms or Energies, Wave Perspectives, Particle
Perspectives, Source of the Energies and Properties of the
Energies. Then I will detail all of the energy vortex loops. I will
then list all of the frequencies of the emotions and the DNA
strands which may be translated into sound and gravity waves.


The symbol "~" shall be defined as "similar to":

Definitions and Properties of all Energies:

Gravity Energies (Holograms)

 Gravity Wave Perspective
  
  Natural gravity waves are at right angles (90  
  degrees) to electrical waves which are at right
  angles to magnetic waves which are at right  
  angles to antigravity or levity waves. Antigravity
  waves are 180 degrees from electrical waves and
  gravity waves are 180 degrees from magnetic
  waves.

  Magnetic-Electrical Waves~Some Cosmic  
  Waves & Some IR &  UV Waevs.~Super  
  Light~C^2(10^20)~Subatomic 
  
 Gravity Particle Perspective

  Proton(Neutrons>Nutrinos>Gravitons)
  ~Tacheyons (Time Particles)
  Magnetic polarized particles in the same  
  orientation or flow~geometric   
  resonance's in the same harmonic flow.

 Gravity Wave Sources:

  Gravity Waves may be generated approximately
  by mechanical devices such as particle  
  accelerators (magnetic coils, polarized antennas, 
  & natural harmonic spherical resonance's)
  Such mechanical approximate waves are a  
  combination of Longitudinal waves (Vertical
  Waves) and Transverse Waves (Horizontal  
  Waves) and Residue Waves called Undistorted
  Progressive Waves (UPW) which together  
  approximate natural gravity waves..

  Gravity Waves may be generated by natural  
  sources such as the human mind /body  
  /soul/sun/blackwhole and magnets or   
  crystals. These waves can not be generated  
  mechanically but only approximately.
  
 Properties of Gravity Waves
 
  There may be a gravity wave for every light  
  wave so there may be thousands of different  
  types of gravity waves. Also gravity waves are
  smaller or larger than light waves and so there
  may be hundreds of  gravity waves for every  
  light wave. So a subset of gravity waves may
  approximate a light wave and a light wave may
  approximate a subset of gravity waves.

  Some graviton particles may be similar to photon
  particles 10^12 or 10^13 near IR and UV waves
  and some gravitons may be  10^-50m
  ~Weak Gravity   10^-56m~Tachyeons (Time
  energy particles)

Light Energies(Holograms)
 
 Light Wave Perspective:
  C(10^10)~Electrical-Magnetic Waves 
   Thermal~Pressure~Plasma~Gas~Liquid
   ~Solid~Temperature Energies of Light

    Ultraviolet (UV) Waves
    Infrared(IR) Waves

 Particles Perspective
  Subatomic Particles ~Electrons~Photons
 
Mechanical Energies (Sound Holograms) 
 Sound Wave Perspective
  Atmospheric Waves~Molecular   
  Waves~Gas~Waves 

Feed forward and feedback loops of all Energies for all natural
systems:

Energy Vortexes:
 
 The 5 Environmental Energy vertical vortexes which
 each have vertical north-south poles:

 Universal Center<>Universal Edge
 Galactic Center<>Galactic Edge
 Solar Center<>Solar Edge
 Planetary Center<>Planetary Edge
 Individual Center<>Individual Edge

 The center and edges of the above energy vortexes each
 have a time energy vortex loop from the center to the
 edge and from the edge to center.

 The 3 Individual Energy horizontal  tripolar vortexes:

 Mind Vortex<>Soul Vortex<>Body Vortex
 
 The human soul creates a spiritual vortex which focuses
 energy or sorts all energies coming from the vertical (y
 axis) Planetary center and edge, Solar center and edge
 (sun), the Galactic center and edge (black whole), and
 the Universal center and edge (Beginning of Time and
 End of Time) into a soul centropy point or a sphere
 (Compressed/Imploded /Braided/ 
 Fractalized/Nesting/Recursion/Shareable/Self Similar
 Geometric Patterns) . There are two energy flows from
 the beginning of time to the end of time and from the
 end of time to the beginning of time which creates a
 feed forward and feedback time energy vortex
 loop. There are also vertical feedback and feed forward
 nesting loops or energy  shells from south pole to the
 north pole of the mind-body-soul vortex which branches
 out into nested loops or energy shells of the south pole
 and north pole of the solar, galactic, and universal center
 vortexes. 

 The human mind/soul/body creates a tripolar vertical `
 feed forward feedback loop. The mind creates a 
 logical vortex which focuses or sorts energies from  the
 vertical soul vortex center and from the horizontal body
 vortex. The horizontal body energy vortex feeds back
 energies from the brain's electrical magnetic waves and
 the heart sound waves, the organs and gland sound
 waves into emotion waves which travel in a horizontal
 spiral through the soul's vertical gravity energy spherical
 vortex and picks up soul or aether/gravity  information
 which then are perceived as feelings in the logical human
 mind vortex  The perceptions of the logical mind vortex
 are then encoded as future and past memories in  
 Holographic DNA soul meme (12 strands) energy
 strands and  DNA  body gene strands(2 to 12 depending
 on body/soul/mind /environmental  states). All of the
 vortex energies may viewed as sine waves which have
 an amplitude representing the intensity of the energy,
 and a distance between amplitudes which represent a
 scalar gravity soul wave, and a frequency of amplitudes
 which represents the energy type in terms of
 wavelength. 
 
 The emotions may be viewed as scaler gravity waves
 which have a distance between waves to represent the
 type of emotions as:
 
 The frequencies of the emotions and DNA which may
 be translated into sound waves and gravity waves are as
 follows:

 The emotions distance measure between heart beat
 sound waves:
 
 This chart came from the Dan Winter web site at
 www.danwinter.com 

 Sadness Grief    . 4
 Security Pleasure .5
 Wonder/Love  .6= Compassion .618 Phi
 Sincerity Truth .7
 Peace Openness .8
 Well Being Reality .9
 Satisfaction Intellect 1.0 

 The frequencies of the UV spectrum which best
 correlates to the DNA strands are:

 These UV measures came from the Susan Alexander
 Web site at http://www.healingmusic.org/SusanA/

 ADENINE          GUANINE
 Hz #            Wave #                          Hz #    Wave
 3l5.6           723                             300.3   688
 347.9           797                             305.6   700
 368.0           843                             339.2   777
 379.8           870                             370.2   848
 398.l           9l2                             383.2   878
 408.l           935                             4l3.4   947
 447.4           l025                            487.6   lll7
 490.2           ll23                            5l2.9   ll75
 504.2           ll55                            529.5   l2l3
 545.6           l250                            550.0   l260
 582.7           l335                            600.2   l375
 598.0           l370                            6l5.5   l4l0
 6l9.8           l420                            64l.7   l470
 632.9           l450                            663.5   l520
 654.8           l500                            728.9   l670
 698.4           l600                            ll69.8  2680
 726.7           l665                            l278.9  2930
 ll39.2          26l0                            l366.2  3l30
 ll78.5          2700                            l462.3  3350
 l248.3          2860
 l278.9          2930
 l366.2          3l30
 l440.5          3300

 THYMINE                                          CYTOSINE
 322.l           738                             305.6   700
 330.4           757                             345.7   792
 354.4           8l2                             357.9   820
 363.2           832                             420.3   963
 406.4           93l                             429.l   983
 427.8           980                             440.9   l0l0
 447.4           l025                            504.2   ll55
 523.8           l200                            537.8   l232
 543.4           l245                            558.7   l280
 600.2           l375                            594.9   l363
 733.3           l680                            639.5   l465
 768.2           l760                            654.8   l500
 l248.3          2860                            7l3.7   l635
 l274.6          2920                            l276.8  2925
 l385.8          3l75                            l375.0  3l50
                                                         l475.4  3380
 
I appreciate your attention to these matters.


Respectively,


President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
RHF Buisness web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Productions Inc. at
http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Email: tom rhfweb

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From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
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Subject: RE: Model of All  Energies(Gravity Etc.) of  the Human Body & Environment
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On Wednesday, June 27, 2001 2:59 PM, Thomas D. Clark  wrote:

<snip>
>   Natural gravity waves are at right angles (90
>   degrees) to electrical waves which are at right
>   angles to magnetic waves which are at right
>   angles to antigravity or levity waves. Antigravity
>   waves are 180 degrees from electrical waves and
>   gravity waves are 180 degrees from magnetic
>   waves.
<snip>
>   Gravity Waves may be generated by natural
>   sources such as the human mind /body
>   /soul/sun/blackwhole and magnets or
>   crystals. These waves can not be generated
>   mechanically but only approximately.

What evidence do you have for the above assertions?
How is "approximately" an alternative to "mechanically"?
and, by "blackwhole" do you mean "black hole"?

>   There may be a gravity wave for every light
>   wave so there may be thousands of different
>   types of gravity waves. Also gravity waves are
>   smaller or larger than light waves and so there
>   may be hundreds of  gravity waves for every
>   light wave. So a subset of gravity waves may

The conclusion of the first statement above appears to require that there 
are thousands of "types" of light waves. If by that you do not mean 
"wavelength", what differentiates their "type"? How is each gravity waves 
"smaller or larger" than its associated light wave?

>Tacheyons (Time Particles)

When did time exhibit particulate properties?

>~Super Light
What' that?? and what the hell is a "soul centropy point"? "emotion wave"? 
"scalar gravity soul wave"?
Where do you get this stuff?

> I appreciate your attention to these matters.

Are you serious?
This appears to be less than rampant speculation, it appears more like 
mindless agglomerations of made-up jargon with a few pieces of reality 
tossed in to make it sound like something with substance.
If you have basis for these pronouncements, please provide them so we can 
understand how you may have derived them. Without such, we can only 
conclude that you are engaging in fantasy, not science.

> Respectively,
>President, Thomas Clark

>From this spectator's perspective it would be more special if you would 
 post "respectfully", which would preclude being purely speculative. There 
are other venues for that, and if posters would stick to their respective 
topics rather than coming from the opposite end of the spectrum, they would 
garner more respect.

Hey, I wonder if speculation is a particular act done with specula? ;-)

Disrespectively,

Dan Quickert

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 13:54:34 2001
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:53:40 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Scott Little is very good at calorimetry
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{This is the outfit that, upon receiving a supposed "extraterrestrial
>object"--i.e., a varistor that was popped off of a power line by a
>lightning strike--immediately sent it to Earth Tech (Scott Little's
>organization) for analysis. See http://www.nidsci.org/news/varistor.pdf.
>--MJ}***

That's a marvelous little report. They went above and beyond the call of 
duty. Too much work for such a prosaic object. I would have stopped after 
figuring out it was a varistor.



> >         Most of what his stable of scientists learn is kept
> >private by Bigelow. He orders a few crumbs of information to
> >be thrown out to the public from time to time to keep up the
> >illusion that NIDS is a public-service enterprise. Nothing
> >could be farther from the truth.
> >         The Cabal wants ET technology, and the wealth and
> >power which come from possessing it, all to themselves.
> >
> >                                         Richard Boylan, Ph.D.
>
>***{Perhaps we should begin placing somewhat less weight on Scott Little's
>negative CF results than we have in the past--myself included. --MJ}***

What?!? I do not follow the logic of this statement. The report referenced 
above was fine, and no one can doubt that Scott Little's negative results 
were decisively negative. His calorimetry is very good. His ICCF lecture, 
showing the calibration with a rechargeable battery, was one of the best 
lectures I have heard about calorimetry.

It is clear that Little has not been able to replicate excess heat in 
various experiments. In some cases I suspect the original experiment never 
produced heat. In some cases the original probably worked, but we can't be 
positive. I expect Ohmori's glow discharge experiments produce excess heat, 
and Little has not been able to replicate them. I have a few lingering 
doubts. Little would have to work another 6 months to 1 year, or 
alternatively several other people would have to replicate Ohmori before I 
can be sure. I never dismiss a hard-working amateur (since I am one 
myself!), but on the other hand Ohmori has worked for many years, and 
Little only did this only a few months. Ohmori does have a PhD and 30 years 
experience doing similar experiments. You have to take that into account. 
People who work for a lifetime with small objects learn terrific amount. 
They know more than they can say, or teach. It is most important to 
remember that Ohmori has been replicated a few times by others in Japan. 
All in all, I would bet Ohmori is right, but I don't mind withholding final 
judgement for a long as it takes.

Little was clearly unable to replicate the conventional P&F technique, 
which definitely does produce excess heat when performed correctly. This 
can take years of effort to master, the success rate is low, and Little 
simply has not been able to devote that kind of time to it. That isn't his 
fault. He made a better effort than many people did.

My only complaint about him is that sometimes -- occasionally . . . once in 
a blue moon -- he makes the mistake of assuming that other people's results 
cannot be trusted because he cannot reproduce them. He is not the gold 
standard. You cannot judge reality by what happens in his lab. He shouldn't 
judge it on that basis alone -- although naturally his results will 
strongly influence his own views! The laboratory is the final arbiter of 
science, by not necessarily MY laboratory or YOUR laboratory. It is "the" 
laboratory; an abstract entity, referring to an amorphous cloud of 
laboratories considered as a group.

In fact, nobody is the gold standard. No one's results can be fully 
trusted. There is no final arbiter, no central gold standard, and no single 
scientist or authority we can turn to. The best and most skilled among 
them, such as Fleischmann, McKubre, Storms and Miles, have their blind 
spots. Sometimes they say things which other people find silly, or without 
evidence. (Other people include me; I do not agree with everything these 
people say, but our disagreements are unimportant.) You can trust some 
things about some people, and not others. When Scott Little says he detects 
no excess heat, I trust him completely. He is not making a stupid mistake 
the way Nate Lewis or Williams did back in 1989. When he implies that he 
fully grasps the electrochemistry, this is surely a correct replication, 
and we can conclude Ohmori is making a mistake, I do not agree.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 13:57:27 2001
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:43:49 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Model of All  Energies(Gravity Etc.) of  the Human Body &
 Environment
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Thomas -

  > I appreciate your attention to these matters

Sorry, but it all looks like nonsense to me, with physics terms 
strung together in random order. Is it supposed to be art, like an 
ascii version of an abstract painting?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 14:22:20 2001
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger@suite224.net>
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Subject: The X-ray Century - December 1896
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:20:31 -0500
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Interesting coverage of early x-ray and radioactivity discoveries.

 http://www.emory.edu/X-RAYS/century.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 15:15:15 2001
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 17:10:25 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Scott Little is very good at calorimetry
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>***{This is the outfit that, upon receiving a supposed "extraterrestrial
>>object"--i.e., a varistor that was popped off of a power line by a
>>lightning strike--immediately sent it to Earth Tech (Scott Little's
>>organization) for analysis. See http://www.nidsci.org/news/varistor.pdf.
>>--MJ}***
>
>That's a marvelous little report.

***{Agreed. --MJ}***

They went above and beyond the call of
>duty. Too much work for such a prosaic object. I would have stopped after
>figuring out it was a varistor.

***{I like detail, and I think he should have carried the analysis all the
way to the end, as he did. --MJ}***

>> >         Most of what his stable of scientists learn is kept
>> >private by Bigelow. He orders a few crumbs of information to
>> >be thrown out to the public from time to time to keep up the
>> >illusion that NIDS is a public-service enterprise. Nothing
>> >could be farther from the truth.
>> >         The Cabal wants ET technology, and the wealth and
>> >power which come from possessing it, all to themselves.
>> >
>> >                                         Richard Boylan, Ph.D.
>>
>>***{Perhaps we should begin placing somewhat less weight on Scott Little's
>>negative CF results than we have in the past--myself included. --MJ}***
>
>What?!? I do not follow the logic of this statement.

***{Note that I said "perhaps." The intent of that word was to express
uncertainty. The reason for the uncertainty was that I don't know Richard
Boylan from Adam, and thus am not in a position to judge the accuracy of
his take on Robert Bigelow. However, if his view of Bigelow is
accurate--i.e., if he has a background that traces into the CIA, and is
connected with groups within the government which seek the suppression of
ET technology--then I can easily imagine that Scott would be given a free
hand to post negative reports of his various investigations, but that, as
soon as a solid positive threatened to emerge, he would find that the
aforesaid freedom was curtailed. Result: his reports would be biased in the
negative direction in fact, though he would be unaware of that state of
affairs himself, until the day he became convinced that he had a solid
positive result, and indicated an intent to post same. How he would react
to that discovery--whether he would refused to be silenced, or would go
along in order to get along--is a question that I cannot answer with
certainty, and, because of that, I am forced to place less credence on
reports from Earth Tech in the future, than I have in the past. Simply put:
I do not *like* the CIA, or trust them, and I do not trust anyone connected
to them. --MJ}***

The report referenced
>above was fine, and no one can doubt that Scott Little's negative results
>were decisively negative. His calorimetry is very good. His ICCF lecture,
>showing the calibration with a rechargeable battery, was one of the best
>lectures I have heard about calorimetry.

***{He knows his stuff, no doubt about it. But so do lots of people with
CIA and NSA connections, and I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I could
throw the Eiffel Tower. --MJ}***

>It is clear that Little has not been able to replicate excess heat in
>various experiments. In some cases I suspect the original experiment never
>produced heat. In some cases the original probably worked, but we can't be
>positive. I expect Ohmori's glow discharge experiments produce excess heat,
>and Little has not been able to replicate them. I have a few lingering
>doubts. Little would have to work another 6 months to 1 year, or
>alternatively several other people would have to replicate Ohmori before I
>can be sure. I never dismiss a hard-working amateur (since I am one
>myself!), but on the other hand Ohmori has worked for many years, and
>Little only did this only a few months. Ohmori does have a PhD and 30 years
>experience doing similar experiments. You have to take that into account.

***{You also have to take unsavory political connections and potential
conflicts of interest into account. --MJ}***

>People who work for a lifetime with small objects learn terrific amount.
>They know more than they can say, or teach. It is most important to
>remember that Ohmori has been replicated a few times by others in Japan.
>All in all, I would bet Ohmori is right, but I don't mind withholding final
>judgement for a long as it takes.

***{I don't know either, and I am not sure that Robert Bigelow is in fact
connected to the CIA, but given the nature of the CIA, I take the
possibility very, very seriously. --MJ}***

>
>Little was clearly unable to replicate the conventional P&F technique,
>which definitely does produce excess heat when performed correctly. This
>can take years of effort to master, the success rate is low, and Little
>simply has not been able to devote that kind of time to it. That isn't his
>fault. He made a better effort than many people did.

***{Yup. --MJ}***

>My only complaint about him is that sometimes -- occasionally . . . once in
>a blue moon -- he makes the mistake of assuming that other people's results
>cannot be trusted because he cannot reproduce them.

***{I have perceived in Scott, on occasion, hints of what Ayn Rand used to
describe as "hatred of the good for being the good." Those hints, coupled
with these recent revelations about Bigelow, plus the various tidbits
posted here in the past concerning Hal Puthoff's CIA background, just fit
together a bit too neatly for me to ignore. You, of course, are free to
ignore them if you like. --MJ}***

He is not the gold
>standard. You cannot judge reality by what happens in his lab. He shouldn't
>judge it on that basis alone -- although naturally his results will
>strongly influence his own views! The laboratory is the final arbiter of
>science, by not necessarily MY laboratory or YOUR laboratory. It is "the"
>laboratory; an abstract entity, referring to an amorphous cloud of
>laboratories considered as a group.
>
>In fact, nobody is the gold standard. No one's results can be fully
>trusted. There is no final arbiter, no central gold standard, and no single
>scientist or authority we can turn to. The best and most skilled among
>them, such as Fleischmann, McKubre, Storms and Miles, have their blind
>spots. Sometimes they say things which other people find silly, or without
>evidence. (Other people include me; I do not agree with everything these
>people say, but our disagreements are unimportant.) You can trust some
>things about some people, and not others. When Scott Little says he detects
>no excess heat, I trust him completely.

***{I have shared that attitude for years, but that was because I thought
Scott had a free hand, rather than because I thought he would have the
integrity to resist pressure if pressure were applied. Now, however, I find
myself forced to consider the possibility that he does *not* have a free
hand, and, thus, to ask myself whether I would expect him to refuse to be
silenced, if pressure were applied. Since, quite honestly, I must answer
that in the negative, my confidence in his reports, of necessity, has been
reduced. --MJ}***

He is not making a stupid mistake
>the way Nate Lewis or Williams did back in 1989. When he implies that he
>fully grasps the electrochemistry, this is surely a correct replication,
>and we can conclude Ohmori is making a mistake, I do not agree.
>
>- Jed

***{A very sober analysis, and I agree with a lot of it, but not all, as
noted above. --MJ}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 16:09:07 2001
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:56:44 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Scott Little is very good at calorimetry
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Mitchell -

It's all rumor and innuendo! But I think you've said enough to be 
fairly put on the spot, so here goes. What do you really think about 
Scott's CF experiments? Has he pulled an MIT here and intentionally 
fumbled his CF experiments and/or misreported them to hide successful 
results?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 16:30:31 2001
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From: "Thomas D. Clark" <rhf rhfweb.com>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
Cc: "Thomas D. Clark" <tom rhfweb.com>
Subject: RE: Model of All  Energies - My speculative evidence!
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:02:37 -0700
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Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>

Dear Mr. Dan Quickert:

Thank you for responding to my article on A Model of
Energies.... All the emails that I have posted to vortex have
been speculative. I do not have the funds to do experimental 
research with a laboratory.  I am a computer scientist and a
logician by profession. I only do research into the radiation
sciences as a necessary hobby to protect privacy rights. Since I
am a trained logician and philosopher of science in the tradition
of logical positivism, all my research involves reading email
articles and physics books and then using logic to deduce my
conclusions often based on logical principles of symmetry in
nature.  Since I noticed that there is an electrical and a magnetic
gravity field at right angles to each other, I just then assumed by
symmetry that there would be a gravity and antigravity field at
right angles to each other and to the electromagnetic forces.
The  reasoning and evidence that I use in my articles are purely
mathematical or logical in nature and only intended to be used
as a model for simulation to stimulate experimental testing by
others with such facilities. . I shall mention this at the start of
any of my emails from now on. I do apologize if the vortex
forum is only for experimental facts, I was not aware of this.  I
was encouraged by others who have sent me emails to speculate
and post the information. My goals for the Radiation Health
Foundation are only primarily to manage and speculate, and
then hire others to do the scientific experimental research to
validate the theories. I will try to limit the emails I send form
now on, if things get to hot, and just make references to my
web site. I am also having problems with my web site running
properly. I may not be able to post articles there soon. Thank
you for pointing our my  spelling error of respectively for
respectfully, I shall correct it.  


Respectfully,

President, Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation (RHF) Inc.,
RHF Buisness web site at: http://www.rhfweb.com/
Personal website at http://www.rhfweb.com/personal
New Age Media Productions at
http://www.rhfweb.com/newage
Email: tom rhfweb.com
















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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Robert Bigelow
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:36:07 -0400
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Hi All

Seems the notion has been floated that Vort's own
Scott Little is a card carrying member of the shadowy illuminati
conspiracy; kindly embodied by one Robert Bigelow.

A little web search would turn up quite
a bit of public domain knowledge, I suggest trying
so. Here's a sample, a backgrounder from the Fortean
folks...

http://www.parascope.com/nb/articles/bigelow.htm

Of course the man's web site is here.

http://www.nidsci.org/

and I suppose what he feels in appropriate bio
info is here.

http://www.nidsci.org/bios/bigelow.html

read some of the speeches, the guy's certainly
a maverick. He's also pretty wealthy, based on
the other companies mentioned which are his holdings.

Otherwise, he seems to be funding a lot of
strange stuff, know anybody else doing this?
For that I have great respect for the man. He seems
pretty desperate to get out into space as well. I
suppose if I had a warp engine and needed to
commercialize it I'd know who to talk to (smile).

K.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 18:40:18 2001
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 <002801c0fe61$95c878c0$a7181ad8 oemcomputer>
 <v04011700b760007fa26d [207.8.127.165]>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:32:38 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Scott Little is very good at calorimetry
Resent-Message-ID: <"rs0si3.0.231.aheEx" mx1>
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>Mitchell -
>
>It's all rumor and innuendo!

***{Um, no, it's not all rumor, and nothing I said was in the form of
innuendo. To be specific, it is not a rumor that the outfit in Nevada sent
their flying varistor to Earth Tech in Austin, 1500 miles away, of all
places. I picked up on the strangeness of that instantly when I read
Scott's report, even before I read the piece about Bigelow. And there have
been many posts to this group over the years referring to Hal Puthoff's
supposed role in sub-rosa e.s.p. research for the government. That's not
rumor either, or, if it is, it is rumor that he has had ample opportunity
to deny and has neglected to do so. Nor is the stuff about Earth Tech's
"deep pockets" investor a rumor. We have heard it here, straight out of
Scott's mouth. Given that context, the piece about Bigelow acquired an
eerie verisimilitude, and one that it would be foolish to ignore. --MJ}***

But I think you've said enough to be
>fairly put on the spot, so here goes. What do you really think about
>Scott's CF experiments? Has he pulled an MIT here and intentionally
>fumbled his CF experiments and/or misreported them to hide successful
>results?

***{Until this stuff came up, I would have said no emphatically and without
hesitation. Now, however, I can only say I think not, but do not know.

Please understand: I have no axe to grind here. For all I know, Robert
Bigelow may be a great guy, and the piece attacking him may be pure bull.
Nevertheless, the alleged CIA connection bothers me, and until I obtain
enough information to discount it, I am inclined to distrust the man and
any institution to which he is connected. That's why I brought the matter
up, in fact: in hopes that we could get a discussion going that would bring
forward enough information to settle the question, one way or the other.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 19:01:11 2001
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:57:36 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Robert Bigelow
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>...Scott Little is a card carrying member of the shadowy illuminati  :-)
>conspiracy; kindly embodied by one Robert Bigelow.

Yes indeed, conspiracy theorists... direct from the NIDS website, we learn (as 
if it weren't already obvious) that they "use a combination of high quality ex-law 
enforcement investigative teams with contract research involving nationally 
accredited laboratories in the veterinary...sciences to research anomalous 
phenomena."

Ahh, the dog star always sounds in... with that mysterious growl....



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 20:41:23 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scott Little is very good at calorimetry
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:39:19 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <jb9ljt8f4jdbrgp50dqk8kcdbd9588o8hn 4ax.com>
References: <v04011700b760007fa26d [207.8.127.165]> <v04011701b75ea8901c98@[207.8.127.76]> <002801c0fe61$95c878c0$a7181ad8@oemcomputer> <v04011700b760007fa26d@[207.8.127.165]> <v04210100b76013e671e4@[192.168.123.2]> <v04011700b76033e4d4e0@[207.8.127.126]>

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In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:32:38
-0500:
[snip]
>***{Um, no, it's not all rumor, and nothing I said was in the form of
>innuendo. To be specific, it is not a rumor that the outfit in Nevada sent
>their flying varistor to Earth Tech in Austin, 1500 miles away, of all
>places. I picked up on the strangeness of that instantly when I read
>Scott's report, even before I read the piece about Bigelow. And there have
[snip]
Perhaps someone has already mentioned this, but if so I have not seen
it. Anyway, note that Hal Puthoff is chairman of the board of NIDS,
according to their personnel info at:
http://www.nidsci.org/personnel.html .


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 20:42:50 2001
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:39:21 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Robert Bigelow
Resent-Message-ID: <"PaPDB1.0.5s4.eUgEx" mx1>
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>Hi All
>
>Seems the notion has been floated that Vort's own
>Scott Little is a card carrying member of the shadowy illuminati
>conspiracy; kindly embodied by one Robert Bigelow.
>
>A little web search would turn up quite
>a bit of public domain knowledge, I suggest trying
>so. Here's a sample, a backgrounder from the Fortean
>folks...
>
>http://www.parascope.com/nb/articles/bigelow.htm
>
>Of course the man's web site is here.
>
>http://www.nidsci.org/
>
>and I suppose what he feels in appropriate bio
>info is here.
>
>http://www.nidsci.org/bios/bigelow.html
>
>read some of the speeches, the guy's certainly
>a maverick. He's also pretty wealthy, based on
>the other companies mentioned which are his holdings.
>
>Otherwise, he seems to be funding a lot of
>strange stuff, know anybody else doing this?
>For that I have great respect for the man.

***{Not so fast. Listen to this, from the NIDS website:

"Because of the sensitive and confidential nature of NIDS' primary research
topic, it is not our policy to comment on the sources or methods of
obtaining research information. NIDS obtains and creates multiple databases
in the fields of UFO research, abduction, and animal mutilation, and in
doing so the identities and contact details of individuals are protected or
redacted. Unless otherwise approved, NIDS never releases the names or
identifying details of any UFO eyewitnesses, abductees, or in cases
involving animal mutilations, ranchers. All individuals and consultants who
work for NIDS sign a non-disclosure agreement. NIDS has physicians,
psychologists, and professional scientists from government and university
labs on its science advisory boardwho help in maintaining the highest
ethical research principles." (See http://www.nidsci.org/ethics.html.)

The potential of the above is rather obvious: facts about UFO's and related
phenomena may simply disappear into the NIDS black hole, never to emerge
again. In that case, eyewitnesses would be silenced by nondisclosure
agreements, as would the psychologists, physicians, and professional
scientists who were given access to those eyewitnesses, or to artifacts, or
to any other hard data which might permit the public to comprehend the
outlines of the UFO phenomenon. Even the locations of ranches or other
properties where such events occurred could, by means of the above
"confidentiality" policy, be permanently removed from the public
record--which means: independent investigators who refuse to be muzzled
could be denied access to the information they need to blow the lid off of
these events.

It would appear that if we define the "Men in Black" as a shadowy
organization which aims to suppress the evidence of extraterrestrial
visitations, then it is hard to not notice that the organizations involved
in sweeping UFO facts under the rug of Bigelow's "confidentiality" policies
fit that description to a T. Sure, you can argue that we should just trust
that Bigelow will eventually release this information. However, if he
intends to do that, then what is the point of muzzling people in the first
place?

Bottom line: to me, it looks like Robert Boylan hit the nail on the head.

--Mitchell Jones}***

He seems
>pretty desperate to get out into space as well. I
>suppose if I had a warp engine and needed to
>commercialize it I'd know who to talk to (smile).

***{So you think turning it over to the MIB would be the way to go, right?
:-) --MJ}***

>K.
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 21:12:49 2001
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:09:20 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Scott Little is very good at calorimetry
Resent-Message-ID: <"zRs7u3.0.U-7.HwgEx" mx1>
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>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:32:38
>-0500:
>[snip]
>>***{Um, no, it's not all rumor, and nothing I said was in the form of
>>innuendo. To be specific, it is not a rumor that the outfit in Nevada sent
>>their flying varistor to Earth Tech in Austin, 1500 miles away, of all
>>places. I picked up on the strangeness of that instantly when I read
>>Scott's report, even before I read the piece about Bigelow. And there have
>[snip]
>Perhaps someone has already mentioned this, but if so I have not seen
>it. Anyway, note that Hal Puthoff is chairman of the board of NIDS,
>according to their personnel info at:
>http://www.nidsci.org/personnel.html

***{Wow, another chilling fact! Thanks, Robin! --MJ}***

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 21:31:13 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Scott Little is very good at calorimetry
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 00:37:06 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMCEFOCNAA.knagel gis.net>
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Yes Mitchell, it's true...

Remember, several of our agents died to obtain that piece of
information, so keep it on the QT OK?

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones jump.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:09 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scott Little is very good at calorimetry


>In reply to  Mitchell Jones's message of Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:32:38
>-0500:
>[snip]
>>***{Um, no, it's not all rumor, and nothing I said was in the form of
>>innuendo. To be specific, it is not a rumor that the outfit in Nevada sent
>>their flying varistor to Earth Tech in Austin, 1500 miles away, of all
>>places. I picked up on the strangeness of that instantly when I read
>>Scott's report, even before I read the piece about Bigelow. And there have
>[snip]
>Perhaps someone has already mentioned this, but if so I have not seen
>it. Anyway, note that Hal Puthoff is chairman of the board of NIDS,
>according to their personnel info at:
>http://www.nidsci.org/personnel.html

***{Wow, another chilling fact! Thanks, Robin! --MJ}***

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e.,
zero." --Voltaire


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 27 23:47:45 2001
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:46:35 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Scott Little is very good at calorimetry
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
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Mitchell -

>>It's all rumor and innuendo!
>
>***{Um, no, it's not all rumor, and nothing I said was in the form of
>innuendo.

Not *all* rumor? Ok, your example of that is valid. not *all* of the 
statements were rumor.

But look up "innuendo" in the dictionary. You'll probably see the 
following used as an example. If not, you should submit it, and maybe 
you'll get some sort of credit:

>***{I have perceived in Scott, on occasion, hints of what Ayn Rand used to
>describe as "hatred of the good for being the good." Those hints, coupled
>with these recent revelations about Bigelow, plus the various tidbits
>posted here in the past concerning Hal Puthoff's CIA background, just fit
>together a bit too neatly for me to ignore. You, of course, are free to
>ignore them if you like. --MJ}***

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 00:13:46 2001
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 21:10:11 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Scott Little is very good at calorimetry
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
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In keeping with the current theme, here's further proof that Scott 
Little is an MIB:

http://www.nidsci.org/articles/pdf/triangularcraft_addendum.pdf

Note where the tightest cluster of flying triangle sightings are 
found - you guessed it - "Scott" Air Force Base. Could this be mere 
coincidence? I think not!!!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 01:21:06 2001
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 03:19:47 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: The Green Nazis
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>
>  >That depends on wether Mitchell or I am correct about the existance
>>of a creator G-d with a right to rule the Universe.
>
>***{There is no "right to rule," Thomas. There is only the power to rule,

That depends on whether there is a G-d. creator of the Universe. As 
it happens, he claims the title of King of the Universe. AFAIK, life 
is impossible outside of this biosystem. NASA has spent lots of our 
tax dollars attempting to grow plants in orbit, and, AFAIK, they have 
been unsuccessful. Astronauts who go on long term space trips have to 
be carried off in stretchers because their bones decalcify. Let alone 
the problem of a woman conceiving and carrying a child to full term 
in the radiation filled environment of space.

>Slavery is
>not a good thing, regardless of whether it takes place in "Heaven" or on
>Earth. --MJ}***

He wants us to serve him because we love him, not because we are 
slaves. However, he makes it plain in his writings that he has no 
respect for human wisdom.

>
>>>All those 'ism's' get in the way of understanding by forcing a two
>>>dimensional view of the universe through a screen of pigeonholes.
>>
>>Progress, OMHO is made when you view the Universe through the "lense"
>  >of your particular paradigm.

Mitchell, based on what you've said, you believe the the world 
condensed out of a dust cloud and that life is a biochemical 
phenomena which began spontaneously. This, IMHO, is a probable at a 
tornado hitting a scrap yard and a 747 flying out. I believe that 
life is not a chemical phenomena, it is an energetic phenomena. the 
biochemical mechanism is surrounded, permeated, and controlled, by an 
energy field. This energy field is quite unlike any that we know of. 
If you understand the nature of this field, please enlighten me! You 
have noticed, I assume, Robert Parks attacks on homeopathy, reike and 
acupuncture? These healing regimens are energy medicine. There is 
none of the toxic phytochemicals left in the homeopathic remedy, just 
the plant's energy. Park dismisses energy medicine as quackery. He 
attributes the cures which these regimens produce to the placebo 
effect, and I  can't prove otherwise. IMHO, Park has the same 
misguided opinion as to the nature of life as you do.

>
>***{No, progress is made by those who adjust their paradigms to fit the
>facts. --MJ}***

Wrong! When your paradigm fails to fit the observed facts, you go 
looking for a paradigm which does fit the facts. That's what leads to 
breakthroughs, IMHO.

>
>Based on that paradigm you either
>>notice, or fail to notice things, aspects, which either conflict or
>  >are predicted by your pet paradigm.
>
>What is sure, however, is that "pet"
>paradigms should not be maintained. --MJ}***
>

I disagree, pet paradigms are part of wisdom

>  >
>>OTOH, with out classification, there would be no science or
>>understanding of the Universe
>
>***{True, but continuous adjustments in one's classifications are also
necessary, in response to the discovery of new facts--e.g., sometimes you

>OTOH, sometimes it's necessary to look at an entirely diferent paradigm.

>
>  >>Standing Bear
>  >
>>Hum, I think most the dimwits are watching daytime TV.
>
>***{I don't think there are any dimwits in this group. There are, however,

I agree.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 03:07:09 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scott Little is very good at calorimetry
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:05:35 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
Message-ID: <3b430160.38766002 mail.midiowa.net>
References: <v04011700b760007fa26d [207.8.127.165]> <v04011701b75ea8901c98@[207.8.127.76]> <002801c0fe61$95c878c0$a7181ad8@oemcomputer> <v04011700b760007fa26d@[207.8.127.165]> <v04011700b76033e4d4e0@[207.8.127.126]> <v04210100b7606e4eafbb@[192.168.123.2]>
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On Wed, 27 Jun 2001 21:10:11 -1000, Rick Monteverde
<rick highsurf.com> wrote:

>In keeping with the current theme, here's further proof that Scott 
>Little is an MIB:
>
>http://www.nidsci.org/articles/pdf/triangularcraft_addendum.pdf
>
>Note where the tightest cluster of flying triangle sightings are 
>found - you guessed it - "Scott" Air Force Base. Could this be mere 
>coincidence? I think not!!!

ROFL

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 03:11:37 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scott Little is very good at calorimetry
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:10:46 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:32:38 -0500, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
wrote:

>And there have
>been many posts to this group over the years referring to Hal Puthoff's
>supposed role in sub-rosa e.s.p. research for the government. That's not
>rumor either, or, if it is, it is rumor that he has had ample opportunity
>to deny and has neglected to do so. 

Certainly not rumor, and certainly not sub-rosa.  Hal and his
collaborator, physicist Russell Targ, co-authored a book on their
research in the early 80's (I had the book, and recall the title being
something like "Mind Reach.").


-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 08:56:12 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: neutrino energy source
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Yes; If a box the size of a briegcase will run an airconditioner then it
will certainly heat water.
-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:18 AM
Subject: neutrino energy source


>>  The devices range from perhaps switching devices
>>tuned to frequencies higher than light, counter rotating disks that
entrain
>>high frequenciey particles and waves and convert them  to electricity.
Stay
>>tuned, at very high frequencies, that is. Bruce
>>---
>>  >
>
>But does it heat water?
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 09:19:28 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: ELECTRIFYING PLASMASPHERE
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:54:40 -0700
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A little more info about energy in and from space.  Bruce
-

>CLUSTER'S WHISPERS PROBE ELECTRIFYING PLASMASPHERE
>--------------------------------------------------
>An astronaut who exits a spacecraft without a spacesuit will die very
>quickly because there is no air to breathe. However, although space
>is often regarded as an airless vacuum, it is by no means empty.
>Spacecraft such as Cluster are built to detect and study the sparse
>'soup' of electrified plasma that populates near-Earth space.
>
>    http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0106/27cluster2
>
>Cluster's whispers probe the electrifying plasmasphere
>EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY SCIENCE RELEASE
>Posted: June 27, 2001
>
>An astronaut who exits a spacecraft without a spacesuit will die very
>quickly because there is no air to breathe. However, although space is
often
>regarded as an airless vacuum, it is by no means empty. Spacecraft such as
>Cluster are built to detect and study the sparse 'soup' of electrified
>plasma - mostly electrons and protons - that populates near-Earth space.
>
>"The world around us is made mainly of solids, liquids and gases,"
explained
>Cluster project scientist Philippe Escoubet. "Plasma is none of these - it
>is really a fourth state of matter. It behaves very much like a gas, but it
>can conduct electricity and it can be affected by magnetic fields."
>
>"We find plasma in the Sun and stars - in fact, all over the Universe - so
>it is very important to find out as much as we can about it," he said.
>
>
>The four Cluster spacecraft were travelling northward along their orbit
>(dashed line) and successively crossed the plasmasphere (orange region) at
>around 30-60 minute intervals. Photo: ESA
>
>
>Although plasma is observed across billions of light years of space, this
>form of matter rarely occurs naturally on the Earth - with the exceptions
of
>lightning flashes and auroras (polar lights) in the upper atmosphere.
>However, plasmas can also be created by applying an electric field to a
>low-pressure gas, for example in neon or fluorescent tubes used in offices
>and houses, or by heating a gas to very high temperatures.
>
>The Cluster spacecraft measure plasma in many different regions within the
>magnetosphere - the magnetic bubble that surrounds our planet. However, the
>highest density of electrically charged particles is found in the
>plasmasphere - a doughnut-shaped region that lies between the Earth's two
>magnetic poles.
>
>The inner edge of the doughnut starts about 1000 km above the surface,
while
>its outer limit may be at an altitude of 25,000 - 40,000 km, depending how
>much it is being influenced by solar wind activity.
>
>As the four Cluster spacecraft approach the Earth every 57 hours,
>instruments on board are able to study the particles, electric and magnetic
>fields in the plasmasphere. Such measurements can tell scientists a great
>deal about the behaviour of the high density, cold plasma it contains.
>
>One of the experiments on Cluster that is used to study plasma is called
>WHISPER. This French-led instrument measures electron density as the
>spinning spacecraft sweep around the planet.
>
>When the Cluster quartet are strung out like a string of beads near closest
>approach to the Earth, they are sufficiently far apart to reveal the size
of
>the plasmasphere and study the particles within it.
>
>One of the first opportunities to observe the plasma doughnut came on 17
May
>2001. With the Cluster quartet approximately 16,000 km apart, the WHISPER
>instrument on each satellite was able to record changes in electron density
>as the spacecraft soared over the south magnetic pole and headed north.
>
>"Our data clearly show the plasma frequency rising and decreasing as the
>Cluster spacecraft enter and exit the region of high electron density,"
said
>WHISPER co-investigator Patrick Canu of CETP in Velizy, France. "We can see
>a clear difference in the inbound and outbound timing for each spacecraft."
>
>"There are also significant differences in the profile of the plasma
>frequency line for each pass," he said, "the most noticeable one being the
>'shoulder' seen by Samba around 23:00 UT."
>
>First to enter the plasmasphere (at around 19:30 UT or 20:30 CEST) was the
>Rumba spacecraft, followed over the next one and a half hours by Salsa,
>Tango and Samba. Each in turn detected the tell-tale rise in high frequency
>electrons (shown by the wiggly pale blue line on the data plots). In each
>case, the electric field measurements rose off the scale, indicating that
>the electron count was exceeding 100 particles per cubic centimetre.
>
>After spending approximately 90 minutes within the plasmasphere, WHISPER's
>electric field measurements began to plummet - clear evidence that the
>spacecraft were speeding out of the dense plasma and back into a region of
>the magnetosphere where the electron density was much lower. The Rumba
>spacecraft exited the plasmasphere at around 21:30 UT. Last to cross the
>outer boundary of the plasma doughnut was Samba (at around 23:30 UT).
>
>"These results are the most detailed ever to show changes in the
>plasmasphere over time," said Philippe Escoubet.
>
>"This is yet another example of how Cluster is revolutionising our
>understanding of near-Earth space and the way our planet interacts with the
>Sun," he added.
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 10:12:08 2001
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The main concern about rolling blackouts in California this summer is the
fact that they depend on our Northwest Hydro Power in the summer. We usually
have a lot of surplus power in the summer from snow melt through the large
Columbia River Dams. We don't have that much need for air conditioning here
in the summer and our heating and lighting demands are low. Well this year
we had a drouth with 50% normal snow pack. That is why California is
concerned. But lately we have been getting a lot of rain up here which could
help California. By the way the average Oregonian and Washingtonian consumes
twice the amout of electricity as a Californian because rates are about half
up here. Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, June 22, 2001 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: Enron market value falls by half


>In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:43:50 -0400:
>[snip]
>>electricity in the next few years. California power consumption has
dropped
>>11% compared to this time last year, so I cannot understand why the
>>"crisis" continues, and why the power companies still issue warnings that
>>rolling blackouts may be needed.
>[snip]
>A large part of the drop in consumption is probably due to the rolling
>blackouts, rather than due to any drop in demand.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 10:27:38 2001
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Non-reasoned Responses
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To Keith, Dean, and Rick:

Sarcasm and demeaning laughter are the last resorts of the intellectually
dishonest, and fool only the gullible. A reasoned response to the questions
I have raised would require that you explain, for starters, why Bigelow
gets UFO eyewitnesses and abductees to sign nondisclosure agreements before
he will investigate their claims, why he requires that scientists sign
similar agreements before he will grant them access to materials or
witnesses, why he refuses to disclose locations where phenomena occurred,
etc. Are you guys really so dense that you see no sinister implications,
when a billionare has operatives fanning out over the country, stuffing
cash in people's pockets who have witnessed strange phenomena, promising to
investigate same *only* if they will refuse to talk to all other
investigators? Are you really so stupid that you cannot comprehend the
implicaitons--to wit: that the aforesaid billionare has positioned himself
to make virtually all information about UFO's and alien visitations simply
disappear, if he chooses to do so? Hey, the guy is a billionare, right?
Therefore he must be a good guy, right? After all, we have it straight from
God Almighty that he couldn't possibly be CIA connected, that he couldn't
possibly receive his funding from CIA black ops sources, right? Indeed, we
know for a flat-out, unarguable fact that the "Men in Black" do not exist,
and that extraterrestrials are not visiting Earth, right?

Duh!

--Mitchell Jones
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." --Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 10:55:00 2001
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:53:54 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Scott Little can do no harm
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Mitchell Jones has proposed a hypothesis which would not have crossed my 
mind in a thousand years: That Scott Little is secretly working for the CIA 
or some other nefarious organization, and he is deliberately 
misrepresenting his results, covering up excess heat. This cover up is 
supposedly hurting the field of cold fusion. That's where the idea breaks 
down. Suppose Little did publish false negative results. It would not cause 
any harm. It would not affect anyone's opinion of cold fusion or change 
funding levels. For that matter, were he to publish real excess heat 
results it would make no difference to anyone. Perhaps the people funding 
him would be pleased, and I hope they would increase his funding, but no 
one else in the world would take the slightest notice.

Let's look at this for a moment. People like Richard Oriani and 
organizations like Mitsubishi publish iron-clad, indisputable proof that 
cold fusion exists, yet no one notices. Not a single skeptic is convinced. 
Scott Little is not even a professional scientist at a university or 
corporation. Who would listen to him? A few skeptics say he has 
credibility, but they do not mean it. If he were to publish a positive 
result, they would instantly turn against him and accuse him of fraud and 
insanity. The skeptics will praise an orangutan as long as it monkeys their 
views. Look at Taubes and Robert Park!

Could fake negative reports by Little discourage funding to others? No, 
because there is not one penny of funding outside of SRI.

Could fake negative reports discourage CF scientists, or cause them to 
question their own results? No, because they have plenty of negative 
results of their own. More than Scott Little, in fact -- Mizuno has six 
months of negative glow discharge data from hundreds of cathodes; Little 
gave up after a few dozen cathodes, I recall. The CF researchers know how 
difficult this is. They know Little spent a few weeks trying to replicate 
experiments that took them *years* to master. No CF scientist I know 
considers Little's work a credible, serious effort to replicate. They see 
it as an amateur experiment which might have worked if he had achieved the 
correct conditions by accident. He probably could not have repeated a 
succeed because he has not measured control parameters and material 
characteristics. Naturally, they do not hold it against him that he lacks 
four to six years of training in electrochemistry, and he does not have 
$200,000 in equipment.

When the professionals at the NHE screwed up and wasted $20 million, and 
lied about the excess heat Miles showed them in their own lab, that hurt 
the reputation of the field. The DoE hot fusion web site gleefully quotes 
the Japanese hot fusion attacks on that fiasco. But Scott Little could lie 
all he wants and nobody on either side of the debate would notice or care. 
He has nothing to fear from success either. He has no academic standing; 
his job would not be at risk if he published excess heat results. All in 
all, I cannot think of any reason why he would lie, or any benefit it would 
bring him, and he seems like an honest fellow, so I assume he is telling 
the truth.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 10:57:57 2001
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From: "Bruce Meland" <etimes teleport.com>
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Subject: Re: Enron market value falls by half
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Enron  makes more money as a middleman in electricity and gas. And as long
as the Enron insiders sold their stock before it went down, who cares? So
what if the deal with Blockbuster did not go through, they need tax write
offs.   Some say Enron created the  Natural gas crisis also. Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, June 22, 2001 8:45 AM
Subject: Enron market value falls by half


>Enron is a major player in the California energy crisis and it has close
>connections to the Administration. Enron mainly produces electricity and
>gas. It has one of the largest investments in U.S. wind power and wind
>turbine manufacturing, but that is only a small percent of its energy
>portfolio. Along with many other companies, it has lately lost a ton of
>money trying to sell fiber optic bandwidth. The market value of the Enron
>has fallen by half, to $30 billion, since peaking in August 2000. See:
>
>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/06/22/BU178338.DTL
>
>http://www.wind.enron.com/
>
>This is another indication that the California energy crisis will not
>benefit energy companies in the long term. I predict a tremendous glut in
>electricity in the next few years. California power consumption has dropped
>11% compared to this time last year, so I cannot understand why the
>"crisis" continues, and why the power companies still issue warnings that
>rolling blackouts may be needed.
>
>- Jed
>
>

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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:14:04 -0700
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> To Keith, Dean, and Rick:
> 
> Sarcasm and demeaning laughter are the last resorts of the intellectually
> dishonest, and fool only the gullible. A reasoned response to the questions
> I have raised would require that you explain, for starters, why Bigelow
> gets UFO eyewitnesses and abductees to sign nondisclosure agreements before
> he will investigate their claims, why he requires that scientists sign
> similar agreements before he will grant them access to materials or
> witnesses, why he refuses to disclose locations where phenomena occurred,
> etc. 

Mitch, et.al.,

Many UFO researchers share your view on Bigelow.  There was a big
controversy last year on the UFO Updates list because John Carpenter
sold his abductee database to RB without permission from those
experiencers.  You can start reading about it in the archives with this
message:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/jul/m06-001.shtml

The row actually started earlier; but, this will give you a flavor for
what those "in the know" think of NIDS.  The messages go on for months.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 11:19:25 2001
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 08:08:48 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Non-reasoned Responses
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Mitchell -

You call the rejection of rumor and innuendo as a viable basis for 
opinions about people and their integrity to be a "non-reasoned 
response"? Ok. Conversation over.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



>To Keith, Dean, and Rick:
>
>Sarcasm and demeaning laughter are the last resorts of the intellectually
>dishonest, and fool only the gullible. A reasoned response to the questions
>I have raised would require that you explain, for starters, why Bigelow
>gets UFO eyewitnesses and abductees to sign nondisclosure agreements before
>he will investigate their claims, why he requires that scientists sign
>similar agreements before he will grant them access to materials or
>witnesses, why he refuses to disclose locations where phenomena occurred,
>etc. Are you guys really so dense that you see no sinister implications,
>when a billionare has operatives fanning out over the country, stuffing
>cash in people's pockets who have witnessed strange phenomena, promising to
>investigate same *only* if they will refuse to talk to all other
>investigators? Are you really so stupid that you cannot comprehend the
>implicaitons--to wit: that the aforesaid billionare has positioned himself
>to make virtually all information about UFO's and alien visitations simply
>disappear, if he chooses to do so? Hey, the guy is a billionare, right?
>Therefore he must be a good guy, right? After all, we have it straight from
>God Almighty that he couldn't possibly be CIA connected, that he couldn't
>possibly receive his funding from CIA black ops sources, right? Indeed, we
>know for a flat-out, unarguable fact that the "Men in Black" do not exist,
>and that extraterrestrials are not visiting Earth, right?
>
>Duh!
>
>--Mitchell Jones
>________________
>Quote of the month:
>
>"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e., zero." 
>--Voltaire

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 11:37:53 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: Non-reasoned Responses
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:43:05 -0400
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OK Mitchell....

The point of the NDA's is to protect UFO
witnesses from being overrun by every nut-job, crack-pot
and asshole who subsequently finds them out. Ask some
of the public witnesses what it's like when they
tell their stories. Jobs are lost, families break
up, constant hounding by the black helicopter/MIB/second coming
freaks, etc etc.

That's why the policy is posted in the ETHIC'S section.
It's what encourages credible witnesses to come forward.

As far as his being tight-lipped, he's paying the bill
Mitchell. Thats the essense of that free-market laisse-faire
capitalism you seem so enamoured of. Or are you suggesting
that the Government step in and force him to release research he's
privately funded?

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Mitchell Jones [mailto:mjones jump.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 1:23 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Non-reasoned Responses


To Keith, Dean, and Rick:

Sarcasm and demeaning laughter are the last resorts of the intellectually
dishonest, and fool only the gullible. A reasoned response to the questions
I have raised would require that you explain, for starters, why Bigelow
gets UFO eyewitnesses and abductees to sign nondisclosure agreements before
he will investigate their claims, why he requires that scientists sign
similar agreements before he will grant them access to materials or
witnesses, why he refuses to disclose locations where phenomena occurred,
etc. Are you guys really so dense that you see no sinister implications,
when a billionare has operatives fanning out over the country, stuffing
cash in people's pockets who have witnessed strange phenomena, promising to
investigate same *only* if they will refuse to talk to all other
investigators? Are you really so stupid that you cannot comprehend the
implicaitons--to wit: that the aforesaid billionare has positioned himself
to make virtually all information about UFO's and alien visitations simply
disappear, if he chooses to do so? Hey, the guy is a billionare, right?
Therefore he must be a good guy, right? After all, we have it straight from
God Almighty that he couldn't possibly be CIA connected, that he couldn't
possibly receive his funding from CIA black ops sources, right? Indeed, we
know for a flat-out, unarguable fact that the "Men in Black" do not exist,
and that extraterrestrials are not visiting Earth, right?

Duh!

--Mitchell Jones
________________
Quote of the month:

"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value--i.e.,
zero." --Voltaire


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 13:28:26 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Infamous Taubes quote
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The book by Gary Taubes, "Bad Science" if chock full of ludicrous errors. I 
scanned a particularly infamous example for a discussion elsewhere with 
Dieter Britz, who praised the book. Since I went to the trouble, let me 
copy the quote here. This is from page 271. It is about a video Martin 
Fleischmann made:


". . . The video showed an effervescent cold fusion cell into which a red 
dye was poured. Within twenty seconds the dye had been evenly  distributed 
throughout the flask. Fleischmann said this proved that 'the argument of 
ineffective mixing doesn't hold water.'

The demonstration was impressive; however, it was bogus. Even if the cold 
fusion cell had huge temperature gradients - say, fifty degrees hotter on 
one side than on the other - the red dye would have diffused evenly within 
a very short time. The temperature gradient in the flasks simply had 
nothing to do with what could be called the red dye gradient. This also 
begged the question of why Pons and Fleischmann hadn't simply set up 
thermometers in a cell and collected the temperature data, which would have 
been less trouble and more convincing than the video. Later Dick Crooks of 
MIT suggested that the video might have been a product of Fleischmann's 
peculiar sense of humor. 'It's very common in science,' he said. 'When you 
don't have the results, you start telling jokes.'"


Here are the major errors in this paragraph:

1. It is possible to have temperature gradient of 50 degrees C. This is 
like saying you might sip a cup of coffee from the right side and find it 
tepid, but when you turn the cup around and drink from the left side, it 
will be steaming hot.

2. The fluid might mix rapidly, yet the gradient magically remains.

3. Thermal gradients are from side to side, not top to bottom.

4. Fleischmann conducted four years of calorimetry but he never used a 
thermometer, or multiple thermometers.


It is astonishing that professional scientists such as Dieter Britz, Leon 
Lederman, and Burton Richter read this book and yet you failed to notice 
these mistakes.

In a sense Taubes performed a public service. His book is a good litmus 
test. A scientist who reads through it and fails to notice these errors has 
lost all objectivity, fair play, and respect for academic traditions. He no 
longer understands the common sense physics and chemistry. He judgment 
cannot be trusted, and nothing he says about cold fusion has any merit. He 
may still be rational about other subjects. The human mind can 
compartmentalize experience and facts, making sense out of some while it is 
blind to others.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 28 14:32:18 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Subject: Re: Non-reasoned Responses
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:31:36 GMT
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Hi Mitchell,

On Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:23:28 -0500, Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
wrote:

>To Keith, Dean, and Rick:
>
>Sarcasm and demeaning laughter are the last resorts of the intellectually
>dishonest, and fool only the gullible. A reasoned response to the questions
>I have raised would require that you explain, for starters, why Bigelow
>gets UFO eyewitnesses and abductees to sign nondisclosure agreements before
>he will investigate their claims, why he requires that scientists sign
>similar agreements before he will grant them access to materials or
>witnesses, why he refuses to disclose locations where phenomena occurred,
>etc. Are you guys really so dense that you see no sinister implications,
>when a billionare has operatives fanning out over the country, stuffing
>cash in people's pockets who have witnessed strange phenomena, promising to
>investigate same *only* if they will refuse to talk to all other
>investigators? 

Hey, I agree with you on that point.  But I saw no reason to write a
message that said simply "Yup!"

What concerns me more is that Art Bell seems to have switched over to
Bigelow's camp instead of the UFO reporting center in Washington.
More than that, it seems that police across the country are being
given Bigelow's UFO site as the primary place to report sightings.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF