From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 01:39:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l019dDSo008311; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 01:39:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l019dB2g008300; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 01:39:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 01:39:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4598D69C.2060804@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 03:38:36 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71832 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: energy amplifier Status: RO X-Status: Esa Ruoho posted; >The output device is an alternator which is driven by a three-phase >mains-powered, 3 HP to 7.5 HP motor (both of these devices can be >standard 'asynchronous squirrel-cage' motors). The problem with this dingus producing energy is that the physics of electrical engineering is well understood. Numerous inventors have drawn up variations of this scheme, AFAIK, none of them has worked. BTW, I enjoyed the Wikipedia Keely article. Models of the Dyansphere are available, at $50,000 each. For the person who has to be the first kid on the block with a shiny toy. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 04:56:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l01CuU6l031478; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 04:56:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l01CuSZf031463; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 04:56:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 04:56:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <017301c72da4$3f4d8580$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <4596EE1D.9090306@pobox.com> <45972A97.2040900@usfamily.net> <459741DB.1080805@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 13:56:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l01CuQgU031447 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71833 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 5:51 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy > > > thomas malloy wrote: >> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> John Steck wrote: >>> >>>> I might be mistaken, but I think there is a significant performance >>>> drop at >>>> low temperatures with solar cells... someone please correct if wrong. > > Groping around on the web I ran into an off-hand claim that they > actually perform better at low temperatures, here: > > http://www.wagonmaker.com/power.html > > Haven't dug into it any farther at this point. They do perform better when they are cooled. > > >>> >>> What's worse, there's a totally catastrophic performance drop when >>> they're covered with 2" of snow, or an inch or two of ice. >> >> Sounds like a job for electrical heater cables to me. > > That, plus a 45 degree tilt, might be all that's needed. Ideally they should be pointed towards the yearly average of the sun's position in your sky, so in the northern hemisphere they should point south and be tilted wrt the horizontal with an angle equal to the latitude (0° at the equator, 90° at the north pole) > > Then we'd just need to be sure they were well enough anchored to the > roof so that the tilted solar panels wouldn't turn into a "solar sail" > and fly away in the first storm that comes along... In this respect, if your roof already has a pretty steep pitch, you might be better off laying them flat on the roof as Robin suggested. Michel P.S. Wrt your earlier remark about clouds, I believe PV works rather well in diffuse light too. > >> >> >> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- >> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 05:31:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l01DUwSg007362; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 05:30:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l01DUtQl007345; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 05:30:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 05:30:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=BOb4U5tExOxdy6H1UJSDBeTun2enLmhqbAWqMOYuvSnWKt1hzIqFFlfv6GdjqgQl; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "R Stiffler" To: "Vortex" Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 07:30:42 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: b8fefcea26acc4ad71639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94095addab401eccf8b8429126ed7557145350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71834 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: unsubscribe Status: RO X-Status: From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 09:08:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l01H8atW013958; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 09:08:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l01H8Vj4013792; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 09:08:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 09:08:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <01cd01c72dc7$7683a7f0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-220061232743613166@earthlink.net><4592985C.6080806@pobox.com><002401c729da$8cfe3db0$5c9d163f@DFBGQZ91><001401c72c77$227f31c0$4bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <45982C79.1000309@usfamily.net> <001a01c72d4a$e8bd5320$968f163f@DFBGQZ91> <841hp21lhrihf56pk2e7orhu3td921j0mp@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: What Energy Crisis? Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 18:08:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l01H8T8N013705 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71835 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Their setup with the electron irradiated copper ball reminds me of inertial fusion with the laser irradiated DT pellets/balls. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: What Energy Crisis? > In reply to Kyle R. Mcallister's message of Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:16:53 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >>Now, if you want to get into violating baryon number and lepton number, >>maybe there is some way to "burn" matter into energy directly, say, make >>some sort of thing that converts 50% of your matter feed stock into >>antimatter, and the leftover 50% of normal matter does the rest. Better >>convert an equal number of baryons and leptons too, otherwise we get into >>charge conservation violations. If we can do that, then we are all set. But >>how do we do that? > > The proton21 crowd may have found alternative clean nuclear reactions, capable > of using essentially any matter as fuel (probably only metals at present). > > http://www.proton21.com.ua/index_en.html > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 14:26:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l01MQ2td032661; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:26:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l01MQ0OC032641; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:26:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:26:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 09:25:57 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 1 Jan 2007 22:25:56 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l01MPv3W032611 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71837 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.'s message of Tue, 26 Dec 2006 19:33:32 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Some half-baked ideas from memory on previous lists (somewhat jocularly): > >Buying cheap land under high tension power lines. >Selling energy stocks ( and the many subsidiary industry stocks) short. >Starting filling station remodeling companies. >Buying Neodymium (The Chinese have already cornered that market :-( ). >Making retrofit car engines. >Inventing heat dissipation technology for portable devices. >Selling road and sidewalk heaters to melt snow in north east cities. >Build perpetual hot air balloons. >Selling power back to the power companies (~US$60.00 per day for a >residential generator unit). >Desalination plants. >No more concern for energy efficiency in homes, vehicles -- the end of the >insulation business. >No more interest in the middle east at all -- let them go their own way. >Extracting gold from sea water. >Making gasoline from air and water. >Disinfecting drinking and pool water by boiling it. >Selling scrap power plant parts. >Dismantling wind farms and hydro plants. >Replace broadcast antenna towers with perpetually hovering helicopters. >Completely new airplane designs where no fuel has to be onboard, and >efficiency doesn't matter. >Self heating soup cans. >Self cooling soft drink cans. >Car air conditioners and heaters that are on all the time. >Send your car up into the air ( hot air balloon or helicopter rotor) or >around the block 'til you call it back -- no parking places needed. >Buildings supported by compressed air (should be more immune to earthquakes >as well as cheaper). They are worse than half-baked, they are suicidal. Let's hope that humanity has enough sense to avoid such stupidity. We currently have a global warming problem, *at least* partially driven by the greenhouse effect. While FE would solve that problem, extreme profligate waste will create a new problem of direct heat overload. It is therefore imperative that efficiency measures be continued along with the introduction of FE. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 14:51:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l01MpSRB022811; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:51:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l01MpKnn022768; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:51:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:51:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 15:53:17 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71838 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This has been discussed before on this list, and it turned out that artificially generated heat is insignificant compared to solar influx. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 3:26 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: In reply to Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.'s message of Tue, 26 Dec 2006 19:33:32 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Some half-baked ideas from memory on previous lists (somewhat jocularly): > >Buying cheap land under high tension power lines. >Selling energy stocks ( and the many subsidiary industry stocks) short. >Starting filling station remodeling companies. >Buying Neodymium (The Chinese have already cornered that market :-( ). >Making retrofit car engines. >Inventing heat dissipation technology for portable devices. >Selling road and sidewalk heaters to melt snow in north east cities. >Build perpetual hot air balloons. >Selling power back to the power companies (~US$60.00 per day for a >residential generator unit). >Desalination plants. >No more concern for energy efficiency in homes, vehicles -- the end of the >insulation business. >No more interest in the middle east at all -- let them go their own way. >Extracting gold from sea water. >Making gasoline from air and water. >Disinfecting drinking and pool water by boiling it. >Selling scrap power plant parts. >Dismantling wind farms and hydro plants. >Replace broadcast antenna towers with perpetually hovering helicopters. >Completely new airplane designs where no fuel has to be onboard, and >efficiency doesn't matter. >Self heating soup cans. >Self cooling soft drink cans. >Car air conditioners and heaters that are on all the time. >Send your car up into the air ( hot air balloon or helicopter rotor) or >around the block 'til you call it back -- no parking places needed. >Buildings supported by compressed air (should be more immune to earthquakes >as well as cheaper). They are worse than half-baked, they are suicidal. Let's hope that humanity has enough sense to avoid such stupidity. We currently have a global warming problem, *at least* partially driven by the greenhouse effect. While FE would solve that problem, extreme profligate waste will create a new problem of direct heat overload. It is therefore imperative that efficiency measures be continued along with the introduction of FE. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 16:39:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l020dY5R010773; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:39:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l020dOx2010713; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:39:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 16:39:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 18:39:12 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71839 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Selling power back to the power companies (~US$60.00 per day for a >residential generator unit). Priceless. Highly unlikely, but priceless anyway. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 18:25:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l022PBPi002636; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 18:25:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l022P8x2002601; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 18:25:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 18:25:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:24:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <41gjp25vuk7g29sdml3cfktq1af4685vv2@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 2 Jan 2007 02:24:48 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l022OpS1002530 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71840 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.'s message of Mon, 1 Jan 2007 15:53:17 -0700: Hi, [snip] >This has been discussed before on this list, and it turned out that >artificially generated heat is insignificant compared to solar influx. [snip] I'm well aware of that, I was primarily responsible for demonstrating it. Our current heat output is negligible, however that doesn't mean we should waste energy frivolously. Once you start down that path, there may be no stopping, and with a growing World population that is also getting wealthier at the same time (read increasing the per capita energy consumption), it could eventually become a significant problem. Besides, there is a chance that the power source for the Steorn motors is the kinetic energy of solar wind that encounters the Earth's magnetic field. The amount of energy available from that source varies from 1-10 times the current human power consumption for the planet, which means that if we were to switch entirely to Steorn motors as our power source, we might well find ourselves running out quite soon. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 18:28:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l022S0Ee003871; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 18:28:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l022RuGX003845; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 18:27:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 18:27:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: RE: Steorn Motors Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:27:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0lgjp2lgrd87bkl41pvob449dq5aker1k9@4ax.com> References: <45919044.9010906@teksavvy.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 2 Jan 2007 02:27:53 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l022RsxI003822 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71841 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:23:41 -0500: Hi, [snip] >On 12/26/06, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote:> >> >> I think the COP is infinite (nothing goes in). > >Nothing goes in; but, if they are measuring generated power and not >net power, then their output is not 550 hp. We need more information. > >Terry I think the generated power *is* the net power. AFAIK, the feedback is in the form of internal mechanical energy, which means that only the net is externally detectable (though I believe there are several models, and this may not be true of all of them). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 19:41:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l023fQje026842; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 19:41:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l023fH6U026809; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 19:41:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 19:41:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XC+teG29gwnZGWGpelZ3hHZ5Kyg2nuv1PV1k5pKtzrsJpmJGGRUmkBtvoM0eXcc72QPyDtHgIdkjLJ+XV9UCk6Pa2fmrncbrfvPu8sgIp+Ehil9KncWMtJ2SU9cs2v66hWudTDHhWp+jaSPaEe19T87Ba//5TU75qSZqd+PW094= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 22:41:16 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: RE: Steorn Motors In-Reply-To: <0lgjp2lgrd87bkl41pvob449dq5aker1k9@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45919044.9010906@teksavvy.com> <0lgjp2lgrd87bkl41pvob449dq5aker1k9@4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71842 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 1/1/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > I think the generated power *is* the net power. Regardless of what any of us think, 2007 should be a very revealing year. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 21:44:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l025ijZ3018157; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 21:44:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l025id4S018136; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 21:44:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 21:44:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 00:39:33 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy In-reply-to: <017301c72da4$3f4d8580$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71843 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What about a spiral-like solar panel that can also generate electricity by spinning in the wind too? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 22:02:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l02628c4024843; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 22:02:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l02626YK024823; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 22:02:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 22:02:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Subject: [Vo]: small footprint cheap energy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 06:01:17 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71844 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Diode arrays may get us out of the poor polluted and pitiful energy situation. On http://www.freewebs.com/diodearray I list more serious versions of the novelties listed at Vo: The possibilities are so great that they are hard to restrain. Broadcasters would appreciate high altitude transmitting stationary aircraft. Pedestrians would benefit from snow and ice free heated sidewalks or, perhaps, more practically, heated footwear. We can also insulate more if fiberglass wool can be made and installed more cheaply. However, high bypass heating or air conditioning would provide fresher air. Diode arrays do not produce or eliminate energy but they may convert conventionally dead heat into efficiently usable electricity. Diode arrays may be powerful enough to power a fuelless heavier than air aircraft. Alternately cheap energy could be used to loft roadways of light strong materials in the air on fans. Dispersed lights operating on absorbed heat in oilge vats would increase the productivity of those besties. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 22:21:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l026LOsP028357; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 22:21:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l026LNGQ028348; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 22:21:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 22:21:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 01:19:31 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: What Energy Crisis? In-reply-to: <001a01c72d4a$e8bd5320$968f163f@DFBGQZ91> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71845 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "thomas malloy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 4:32 PM > Subject: [Vo]: What Energy Crisis? > > >> What energy crisis? IMHO, the energy crisis you face is an inability to >> generate a suitable income. I have the same problem. I've heard it said that a rise in the demand for energy is a prerequisite for a rise in incomes. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 11:22:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l01JLvp6016020; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 11:22:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l01JLpx0015991; Mon, 1 Jan 2007 11:21:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 11:21:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=QNzjNAv9cJ5AMCVXvX5pIFWBIsV7D4CbAL04pXlOhpmn2TzBxhA4Mav2sY4/F3u7BICBLIymxcFLEfSYDD1570ggNT2jJtDEiKbt//rYuH60BJo4PrI3xQfCtuAIEdAzfr5G2xO0j2b6fne1HtoDH0gPA9g+nugnkFCoH2OqnJg= ; X-YMail-OSG: 57nG5boVM1liIjiMASPBS_Qp1uvNfUge1Ej4_0PZ66VYVZ_5.jG5wwR8cCuVxwSQmx1TwQSHPGu3QFCP2R.I6a_LdbkKtz33MpU6GZx.GArhw04TPr2JIKsXxXuKr9Oo089k6G.Wz.mZocu4xf2UWXDspYvAqXEqhwYfMsIYGUOrw3Eff8t.9aUxKf97 Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20070101140928.01f623a0@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 14:18:08 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative energy In-Reply-To: <017301c72da4$3f4d8580$3800a8c0@zothan> References: <4596EE1D.9090306@pobox.com> <45972A97.2040900@usfamily.net> <459741DB.1080805@pobox.com> <017301c72da4$3f4d8580$3800a8c0@zothan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l01JLjlM015964 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71836 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends5 Status: RO X-Status: The whole roofing situation is an expensive problem to solve. You can't just penetrate a roof of any sort without extensive sealing, etc. All that costs money. And even if the collectors are anchored parallel to the roof - perhaps even attached closely to it, the risk is still there that there will be a pressure differential between upper and lower surfaces that will make the collectors fly off - perhaps taking some of the roof with them. As for build-ups of snow and ice; ice being somewhat transparent, will allow some amount or solar heating to take place within the collector, much the way it does in your car during the day. Snow too - depending on how much, may allow this, and at 45degrees tilt, there may be enough melting to allow it to slide off. All this assumes some degree of thermal insulation, which defeats the purpose in summer when you need flow-through of air (but not dust). As with all solar applications, there are trade-offs. Last thing you (I) want to do is climb up on the roof to fix things so they work. Could be that a separate, fairly low (accessible) "billboard" set-up is best - not too many billboards fly away, because they're designed not to - but again there's a cost factor. P. At 01:56 PM 1/1/2007 +0100, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" >To: >Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 5:51 AM >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Musings on grid-independence and personal alternative >energy > > > > > > > > thomas malloy wrote: > >> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> John Steck wrote: > >>> > >>>> I might be mistaken, but I think there is a significant performance > >>>> drop at > >>>> low temperatures with solar cells... someone please correct if wrong. > > > > Groping around on the web I ran into an off-hand claim that they > > actually perform better at low temperatures, here: > > > > http://www.wagonmaker.com/power.html > > > > Haven't dug into it any farther at this point. > >They do perform better when they are cooled. > > > > > > >>> > >>> What's worse, there's a totally catastrophic performance drop when > >>> they're covered with 2" of snow, or an inch or two of ice. > >> > >> Sounds like a job for electrical heater cables to me. > > > > That, plus a 45 degree tilt, might be all that's needed. > >Ideally they should be pointed towards the yearly average of the sun's >position in your sky, so in the northern hemisphere they should point >south and be tilted wrt the horizontal with an angle equal to the latitude >(0° at the equator, 90° at the north pole) > > > > > Then we'd just need to be sure they were well enough anchored to the > > roof so that the tilted solar panels wouldn't turn into a "solar sail" > > and fly away in the first storm that comes along... > >In this respect, if your roof already has a pretty steep pitch, you might >be better off laying them flat on the roof as Robin suggested. > >Michel > >P.S. Wrt your earlier remark about clouds, I believe PV works rather well >in diffuse light too. > > > > >> > >> > >> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > >> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 03:38:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l02Bbx17002697; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 03:38:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l02BbsVP002671; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 03:37:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 03:37:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ZUFD9hXcU13fUlEg7m91xbLh4hc6nQvLn/O1PNUBMiEMoZ/Thsb0Xl8giwCTiTSV; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007122113747586@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: "salaw" Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 04:37:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940be8e27024fc3878d182ae94e7b94193f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.51 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71846 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Most wells, springs, or ponds produce water with temperatures ranging from 40 to 60 degrees Fahrenheit (500 to 520 degrees Rankine). A refrigerant such as Ammonia, Propane, or a "Freon" that can maintain a pressure of 30 PSIG across an expansion engine is capable of producing shaft power. Despite it's flammability hazard, Propane (Refrigerant 290) is the least toxic, non-corrosive, environmentally friendly, lubricant compatible, chemical of the group. Propane Temperature-Pressure: Degrees F Degrees R PSIG -30 430 7 -20 440 12 -10 450 18 0 460 25 10 470 34 20 480 42 30 490 53 40 500 65 50 510 78 60 520 93 70 530 110 80 540 128 90 550 150 100 560 177 The Carnot Efficiency (T,hot - T,cold)/T,hot times the expander-generator efficiency determines the wall-socket power available. IOW. using propane with well water at 50 F (78 PSIG at 510 R ) rejecting heat into a condenser at 20 F (42 PSIG at 480 R) with a pressure differential of 36 PSIG, gives a Carnot efficiency of (510 - 480)/510 = 5.9%. An expander-generator efficiency of 60% would give a wall socket efficiency of 0.6 * 5.9% = 3.5% Well pump lift-head and piping loss at 55% efficiency gives a rule-of-thumb equation for determining horsepower(hp), head (hd), and gallons per minute (gpm): hp = gpm*hd/2178 or, hd = hp*2178/gpm For example a 0.25 horsepower pump delivering 12 gpm (100 LBs/minute) for a 10 degree temperature drop for heat extraction (1,000 BTU/minute) or 60,000 BTU/Hr available geothermal heat can lift and tolerate a piping head loss of 0.25*2178/12 = 45 feet. At 3.5% wall socket power output 60,000 BTU/hr, 2,100 BTU/hr or 0.62 Kilowatts will be available at the wall socket and a 0.25 horsepower (0.187 kilowatt well pump) can run off of it, leaving about 435 watts left over for other use. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Most wells, springs, or ponds produce water with temperatures ranging
from 40 to 60 degrees Fahrenheit (500 to 520 degrees Rankine).
A refrigerant such as Ammonia, Propane, or a "Freon" that can
maintain a pressure of 30 PSIG across an expansion engine
is capable of producing shaft power.
Despite it's flammability hazard, Propane (Refrigerant 290) is
the least toxic, non-corrosive, environmentally friendly,
lubricant compatible, chemical of the group.
 
Propane Temperature-Pressure:
 
Degrees F        Degrees  R         PSIG
-30                      430                   7
-20                      440                  12
-10                      450                  18
  0                        460                  25
 10                       470                  34
 20                       480                  42
 30                       490                  53
 40                       500                  65
 50                       510                  78
 60                       520                  93
 70                       530                  110
 80                       540                  128
 90                       550                  150
100                      560                  177
 
The Carnot Efficiency   (T,hot -   T,cold)/T,hot times
the expander-generator efficiency determines the wall-socket
power available.
 
IOW. using propane with well water at 50 F (78 PSIG at 510 R )
rejecting heat into a condenser at 20 F (42 PSIG  at 480 R)
with a pressure differential of 36 PSIG, gives
a Carnot efficiency of (510 - 480)/510 = 5.9%.
An expander-generator efficiency of 60% would
give a wall socket efficiency of 0.6 * 5.9% = 3.5%
 
Well pump lift-head and piping loss at 55% efficiency
gives a rule-of-thumb equation for determining horsepower(hp), head (hd), and
gallons per minute (gpm):
 
hp = gpm*hd/2178
 
or,  hd = hp*2178/gpm
 
For example a 0.25 horsepower pump delivering 12 gpm (100 LBs/minute)
for a 10 degree temperature drop for heat extraction (1,000 BTU/minute)
or 60,000 BTU/Hr available geothermal heat can lift and tolerate
a piping head loss of 0.25*2178/12 = 45 feet.
At 3.5% wall socket power output 60,000 BTU/hr,  2,100 BTU/hr
or 0.62 Kilowatts will be available at the wall socket and
a 0.25 horsepower (0.187 kilowatt well pump) can run off of it,
leaving about 435 watts left over for other use.
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 04:46:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l02CjkZv000474; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 04:45:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l02Cjild000462; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 04:45:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 04:45:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=b4XGH9grcpURCiZzYtoul5Iv6jxNcp88+a2ZIGFrc1d9/6omZzTBnbz4hXmR+zfO; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007122124433631@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Cc: "salaw" Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 05:44:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9406717579d4720a82d4ddf1cc1353a90b2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.222 Resent-Message-ID: <1_E7H.A.GH.4PlmFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71847 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII For the purist that wants the closer pressure temperature properties of propane R290. http://www.glacierbay.com/ptchartpropane.asp Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 1/2/2007 4:38:22 AM Subject: [Vo]: Most wells, springs, or ponds produce water with temperatures ranging from 40 to 60 degrees Fahrenheit (500 to 520 degrees Rankine). A refrigerant such as Ammonia, Propane, or a "Freon" that can maintain a pressure of 30 PSIG across an expansion engine is capable of producing shaft power. Despite it's flammability hazard, Propane (Refrigerant 290) is the least toxic, non-corrosive, environmentally friendly, lubricant compatible, chemical of the group. Propane Temperature-Pressure: Degrees F Degrees R PSIG -30 430 7 -20 440 12 -10 450 18 0 460 25 10 470 34 20 480 42 30 490 53 40 500 65 50 510 78 60 520 93 70 530 110 80 540 128 90 550 150 100 560 177 The Carnot Efficiency (T,hot - T,cold)/T,hot times the expander-generator efficiency determines the wall-socket power available. IOW. using propane with well water at 50 F (78 PSIG at 510 R ) rejecting heat into a condenser at 20 F (42 PSIG at 480 R) with a pressure differential of 36 PSIG, gives a Carnot efficiency of (510 - 480)/510 = 5.9%. An expander-generator efficiency of 60% would give a wall socket efficiency of 0.6 * 5.9% = 3.5% Well pump lift-head and piping loss at 55% efficiency gives a rule-of-thumb equation for determining horsepower(hp), head (hd), and gallons per minute (gpm): hp = gpm*hd/2178 or, hd = hp*2178/gpm For example a 0.25 horsepower pump delivering 12 gpm (100 LBs/minute) for a 10 degree temperature drop for heat extraction (1,000 BTU/minute) or 60,000 BTU/Hr available geothermal heat can lift and tolerate a piping head loss of 0.25*2178/12 = 45 feet. At 3.5% wall socket power output 60,000 BTU/hr, 2,100 BTU/hr or 0.62 Kilowatts will be available at the wall socket and a 0.25 horsepower (0.187 kilowatt well pump) can run off of it, leaving about 435 watts left over for other use. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
For the purist that wants the closer pressure temperature
properties of propane R290.
 
 
Fred
----- Original Message -----
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: 1/2/2007 4:38:22 AM
Subject: [Vo]:

Most wells, springs, or ponds produce water with temperatures ranging
from 40 to 60 degrees Fahrenheit (500 to 520 degrees Rankine).
A refrigerant such as Ammonia, Propane, or a "Freon" that can
maintain a pressure of 30 PSIG across an expansion engine
is capable of producing shaft power.
Despite it's flammability hazard, Propane (Refrigerant 290) is
the least toxic, non-corrosive, environmentally friendly,
lubricant compatible, chemical of the group.
 
Propane Temperature-Pressure:
 
Degrees F        Degrees  R         PSIG
-30                      430                   7
-20                      440                  12
-10                      450                  18
  0                        460                  25
 10                       470                  34
 20                       480                  42
 30                       490                  53
 40                       500                  65
 50                       510                  78
 60                       520                  93
 70                       530                  110
 80                       540                  128
 90                       550                  150
100                      560                  177
 
The Carnot Efficiency   (T,hot -   T,cold)/T,hot times
the expander-generator efficiency determines the wall-socket
power available.
 
IOW. using propane with well water at 50 F (78 PSIG at 510 R )
rejecting heat into a condenser at 20 F (42 PSIG  at 480 R)
with a pressure differential of 36 PSIG, gives
a Carnot efficiency of (510 - 480)/510 = 5.9%.
An expander-generator efficiency of 60% would
give a wall socket efficiency of 0.6 * 5.9% = 3.5%
 
Well pump lift-head and piping loss at 55% efficiency
gives a rule-of-thumb equation for determining horsepower(hp), head (hd), and
gallons per minute (gpm):
 
hp = gpm*hd/2178
 
or,  hd = hp*2178/gpm
 
For example a 0.25 horsepower pump delivering 12 gpm (100 LBs/minute)
for a 10 degree temperature drop for heat extraction (1,000 BTU/minute)
or 60,000 BTU/Hr available geothermal heat can lift and tolerate
a piping head loss of 0.25*2178/12 = 45 feet.
At 3.5% wall socket power output 60,000 BTU/hr,  2,100 BTU/hr
or 0.62 Kilowatts will be available at the wall socket and
a 0.25 horsepower (0.187 kilowatt well pump) can run off of it,
leaving about 435 watts left over for other use.
 
Fred
 
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 11:27:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l02JR5DL026681; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 11:27:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l02JQu4o026620; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 11:26:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 11:26:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: What Energy Crisis? X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20070102192653.86217373F1@xprdmailfe14.nwk.excite.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 14:26:53 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71848 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > I've heard it said that a rise in the demand for > energy is a prerequisite for a rise in incomes. Yes, but the rise in incomes will happen in India, China, and the oil-rich middle east. Of course, maybe we'll wise up in the U.S. and Europe and really pursue seriously alternative energy sources. And, maybe we'll actually surprise ourselves and quit punishing companies that manufacture things. M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 13:28:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l02LNSRi022084; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:23:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l02LNQrQ022069; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:23:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:23:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=vyce2Als2PH9yrJ3ylSPRUrUl4QYJUoi/n+a/tZj2CZyw1ZA6y2NMT7Msz8+EggxhQdcIZSl3cBXVpzLHMAc5G/LYtiitCmOxf7xfx/4/8IXm3D1y2RfglCavBXouJf9M1i3EnckmvCBQTvfKuKFRTk+cmL/ZCT6kocsyCF+0JU=; X-YMail-OSG: nhJiNMYVM1n20arEjjuQlNoQ6oXxdWyPeI3Ll35bzCQgExukIZxlg6ZjW5EyQZHto__o2Ea4DZDqBFJ7LI2dR8CgnIT6pEHoIKh3yW3JeKXQime0OB9IyIqF1J26c9UfYHGQ3OEThDquLvmOscOvZ05. Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 13:23:14 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: small footprint cheap energy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <456072.16798.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71849 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > Diode arrays may get us out of the poor polluted and pitiful energy > situation. On http://www.freewebs.com/diodearray I list more serious > versions of the novelties listed at Vo: The possibilities are so great > that they are hard to restrain. Broadcasters would appreciate high > altitude transmitting stationary aircraft. Pedestrians would benefit > from snow and ice free heated sidewalks or, perhaps, more practically, > heated footwear. We can also insulate more if fiberglass wool can be > made and installed more cheaply. However, high bypass heating or air > conditioning would provide fresher air. Diode arrays do not produce or > eliminate energy but they may convert conventionally dead heat into > efficiently usable electricity. Diode arrays may be powerful enough to > power a fuelless heavier than air aircraft. Alternately cheap energy > could be used to loft roadways of light strong materials in the air on > fans. Dispersed lights operating on absorbed heat in oilge vats would > increase the productivity of those besties. > Aloha, Charlie Hi Charlie, Your Diode array is very doable with present technology. I know for fact an LED will generate photons when connected to a large carbon composite resistor. An LED will generate photons at *any* voltage level, even though they're far more efficient at the forward voltage. Furthermore, there is no upper voltage crest limit to thermal noise. That is "free energy," but an infinitesimal amount. It's just a noisy R and high-speed wide bandwidth LED in series. It is possible to fit billions of such LED's and R's in a small area, which would generate a significant amount of light. Also note that voltage noise from composite resistors increase with a decrease in size; e.g., a 1 micron 1 Gohm R generates more noise than a 1" 1 Gohm R. It is amazing how many physicists believe or want you to believe it is impossible to extract energy from a moving object, such as an atom. I've analyzed people in the "free energy" industry. It's odd how most avoid realistic and potential "free energy" designs and research. :-( Here's a thought Charlie. What could a multi billionaire do to prevent their life, their livelihood, their billions of dollars from going down the drain from "free energy?" Hmm, how about legally hire teams of people to flood the "free energy" community for the purpose of distracting real research. Keep up the good work Charlie and don't give up. :-) It seems companies are avoiding your diode array like the plague. Therefore, perhaps you could save up some money have a small array of LED's and R's built. I think the public would be very interested if you had a device that continuously generated light without any input. You could create a web cam of the array. Eventually the media will become interested, which should spark enough interest. Regards, Paul __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 19:36:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l032HgSY004659; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 18:19:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l032HehE004646; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 18:17:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 18:17:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=mrdoBDMv1a7bOUYF9dgPcPnwl23l8WfcqJ/sFk7M9mUZGc1DvQmC0jyPFLvc0/Mwl0dRSv1Q/3a5l1kkg4yXPasc7sY+i6b74td2qQKe+ozKI5tDO+yXUrWaaUcV3vTPcjkZuXuTLJQ8RYNAZqhZT7DHKYi9fekDLAwE3zkM4GE= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 21:17:39 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71851 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: China Coal Status: O X-Status: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2524271_1,00.html "China chokes on a coal-fired boom Michael Sheridan Toxic cloud of progress can be seen from space A GREAT coal rush is under way across China on a scale not seen anywhere since the 19th century. Its consequences have been detected half a world away in toxic clouds so big that they can seen from space, drifting across the Pacific to California laden with microscopic particles of chemicals that cause cancer and diseases of the heart and lung. Nonetheless, the Chinese plan to build no fewer than 500 new coal-fired power stations, adding to some 2,000, most of them unmodernised, that spew smoke, carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide into the atmosphere. " From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 21:00:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l032qmff028836; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 19:38:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l031rOeT002646; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 17:53:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 17:53:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 01:51:16 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71850 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: [Vo] LED cheap light Status: O X-Status: There are sensitive medical digital cameras that can detect a few photons / sec. of light. Will anyone here obtain the use of one to test a small array of G ohm resistor / LED pairs for light emission? Discrete LEDs won't work very well, possibly only well enough to produce detectable photons; nanometer scale LEDs with very low junction capacitance are needed for practicality. Second Law circumventing machines could convert two tanks of lukewarm water into one of cold water and one of hot water with the same total thermal energy without requiring an input of energy. A diode array in the tank getting colder powering an electric heating element in the tank getting warmer is an example. This is acceptable under the first law. Diversity should be cheap. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 21:44:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l034PlsR017762; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 20:27:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l034Plhl017755; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 20:25:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 20:25:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net X-Virus-Scanned: by McAfee Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <000e01c72eef$0a5088e0$5b037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 22:24:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71853 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: China Coal Status: O X-Status: Terry wrote, > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2524271_1,00.html > > "China chokes on a coal-fired boom > Michael Sheridan > > Toxic cloud of progress can be seen from space > > A GREAT coal rush is under way across China on a scale not seen > anywhere since the 19th century. Its consequences have been detected > half a world away in toxic clouds so big that they can seen from > space, drifting across the Pacific to California laden with > microscopic particles of chemicals that cause cancer and diseases of > the heart and lung. > > Nonetheless, the Chinese plan to build no fewer than 500 new > coal-fired power stations, adding to some 2,000, most of them > unmodernised, that spew smoke, carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide into > the atmosphere. " Howdy Terry, They must have energy so they use coal. China is obviously aware of the havoc the use of coal will wreak on their long term plans. Consider they are painfully aware of the need for clean cheap energy,, Taken another step, it is conceivable they are feverishly searching for such a source. Taken another step, it is conceivable they have searched the world's data bases on new energy research and know about research in Cold Fusion and have known since 1990's. It would not be hard to take the next step and consider they are researching this field now and are ahead of the rest of the world. Why so, you say?? A little tidbit of info.. the Hydro Hub of Singapore.. a consortium of National University of Singapore ( NUS) and some of the leading world corporations like GE Water and Siemens Water. Why would firms like these be investing in research in water on such a large and integrated scale ( co-operative ventures) ? Because they are aware and know something. What do they know? I suggest they know of some technology being advanced. Some connection between new energy forms that have application in water treating. Our tiny company in Texas is researching a miniscule segment of this new water technology. We ship product into the Pacific Rim and receive enough feed back to sense a dynamic emerging out of HydroHub. What nation has the must urgent need of a new form of energy? China of course. They have discovered something and this discovery has application in other fields of science. Taking a huge step .. pure conjecture would suggest the names of the players.. GE and Siemens.. are sufficent to think it fits. These two players in the great game are not kids nor fools. They don't invest 1/2 bil bucks in HydroHub Singapore unless they already have their money back with interest. Who in the world is GE anyway??? Well !! think GE Capital Corp and let that steep awhile.. think Bank of New York and Mellon Bank recent joining at the hip to manage some 22 TRILLION in assets worldwide. Think WalMart and Home Depot, the nations largest retailers. Think Boeing and Siemens.. How do they all fit together.. They are the great game.. not just one of the players. Meanwhile back at the ranch, we are looking, wondering when the science of Cold Fusion will finally become mainstream. Answer, it took about 30 seconds after F&P announced their research in the 1990's for the players in the great game to understand. These people are tough.. they stay on top.. strong take it away from the weak, the smart takes it away from the strong, the bank holds the money for the smart. One of the smartest moves in the past 10 years is.... China forced the brits let them into Hong Kong banks. Nope, they ain't fools. China now controls the world's money management system. Richard > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 22:18:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l033ZSkY012234; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 21:00:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l032v7o8030293; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 18:57:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 18:57:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 23:48:08 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: What Energy Crisis? In-reply-to: <001a01c72d4a$e8bd5320$968f163f@DFBGQZ91> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakeside1.net Message-id: <200701022348.08481.rockcastle@lakeside1.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <410-220061232743613166@earthlink.net> <45982C79.1000309@usfamily.net> <001a01c72d4a$e8bd5320$968f163f@DFBGQZ91> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71852 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 31 December 2006 21:16, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "thomas malloy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 4:32 PM > Subject: [Vo]: What Energy Crisis? > > > What energy crisis? IMHO, the energy crisis you face is an inability to > > generate a suitable income. I have the same problem. > > We will, as time goes on, need more and greater sources of energy. > Specifically, ones we can set up here in the USA, and not have to worry > about zinc-plated dictators and Islamic whackjobs overseas. > > > Over the past year we have discussed a number of areas which might > > provide an unlimited source of pollution free energy. Among them are the > > writings of Hal Puthoff, last week I posted a review of his paper on > > EVO's, adding ? after comments that I don't understand. I also mentioned > > the Frank Tippler's paper on generating anti matter. > > I think I will get attacked for this but..... > > What has the ZPE hype ever gotten us? I remember a bunch of stuff years ago > about doing something sort of screwy with hydrogen, I think along the lines > of "squeezing" it through capillaries or somesuch that was supposed to make > the ground-state orbit of electrons shrink around the hydrogen atoms, > giving off energy. Then presumably the ZPE (which supposedly held up the > electron in the ground-state orbit) would "refill" the atom, and get us > back to normal sized hydrogen. It was sort of...far out. To be honest, we > don't even know that ZPE exists in the sense that people rant about. > > Robert L. Forward had an interesting line of thought about interconverting > energy and momentum, specifically angular momentum ---> energy. It was a > nice idea, could be possible. But how do we DO it? > > Antimatter is not an energy source, it is an energy storage medium, and a > very inefficient one at that. So is gasoline. Thing is, time was on our > side for fossil fuels, and we got here after the hard work was already > done. In that sense, all cars are solar powered, there is just a rather > crummy conversion state in between. > > Now, if you want to get into violating baryon number and lepton number, > maybe there is some way to "burn" matter into energy directly, say, make > some sort of thing that converts 50% of your matter feed stock into > antimatter, and the leftover 50% of normal matter does the rest. Better > convert an equal number of baryons and leptons too, otherwise we get into > charge conservation violations. If we can do that, then we are all set. But > how do we do that? > > At some point, people were making blocks of very heavy, poisonous metals > and got the idea to set a couple blocks close to each other, and then > energy came from apparently nowhere. Who would have ever thought that > something so *stupid* would ever do anything? Yet, here we are with nuclear > reactors. The point is, the answers are undoubtedly there; but finding them > is probably a mixture of (hopefully correct) insight, prayer, and pure damn > luck. Trying to avoid aplastic anemia in the process is also probably a > good thing. Now back to the subject.... > > We don't even NEED a breakthrough right now. We can build solar > concentrating thermal collectors in the desert, and wind farms as well just > to be safe, and solve this whole bloody problem. With today's technology. > Actually 1970's technology. But I seriously doubt it is going to happen > with Republicans or Democrats in power. Who else is there though? I don't > know. > > > If nothing else, we have fossil fuel reserves enough to last for 1000 > > years. Now there are a number of problems which are going to have to be > > resolved, like where to get enough air to burn it, and your children will > > have to convert to Islam. > > Fossil fuels are far more valuable, I think, as chemical feedstocks than to > be literally sent up in smoke. We need them for fertilizers, plastics, all > sorts of synthetics, etc. Why waste them by burning them up? No, we need to > make our electricity from the only known fusion reactor that actually works > and self sustains (the Sun, for those denser'n lead), and make our own > synthetic fuels from them. > > I too hate the idea of "conservation". So why not build ourselves such an > energy resource that we no longer need to conserve? And one that is clean > to boot? I have serious doubts that we are causing "global warming", but if > we have a nice solution that doesn't pollute, why not use it? > > --Kyle Absolutely agree on the conserve part. Conservation never made anybody prosper. It only caused depression and stagflation as industry started to leave to cheaper labor countries. After all, it was energy production that raised us up from muscle labor intensive backbreaking work and made us more productive than slave economies, bringing prosperity to us and to our families. Now to give away our energy advantage is to invite the return of slave economics. It is that simple. Business looks for the cheapest way of doing a job. If energy is not available for smart people to do the job because they are 'conserving and having fewer children', then business will leave that place and go to the place with the most cheap hands to do it manually the old way, like the ancient Babylonians. Slaves. And the slavery will come here too. It will come in little ways like the 'illegal immigrants'. These will depress wages, and you will see them everywhere doing odd jobs that used to be done by citizens. It will be said that citizens do not want the work, but the empty words will only mean that the citizens will not do the work for peonage wages. More immigrants will come and wages will gravitate still lower. The end would be when creditors of citizens ask the government for the ability to make and enforce indentured servitude on debtors. Excuses for doing this abound. Take child support payments. Everybody wants to 'help the children' don't they? Look at our prison systems. G Gordon Liddy wrote in the seventies that most of the residents of the American penal system were 'non-support cases'. That is in reallity a debtors prison system. This is not to excuse the 'gaddy daddies' among our citizens and illegal aliens, but only to show how easy it is to justify maintaining de facto labor indentures in a modern society. There are plenty of debtors now. People that remember the good old days and refused to let go of the dream long after it faded to dust. From indentured servitude to labor contracts in perpetuity to slavery to the old slave market is only a short series of steps backward into a dark past that will become a horrific future if conervationists have their way. By the way. Slavers often use and used religion to encourage the having of many children. This was done for generations in the American south to overpopulate the place in order to create labor surplus market conditions. In the south, kickbacks were often the norm, and supervisors ran roughshod over employees that were little more than scared rabbits. Now the would be slavers have a new source of overpopulation. When our citizens showed responsibility and had fewer children so as to be less a footprint on the environment, this created a population 'vacuum'. This vacuum created by our so called good judgement is now being filled by the refuse of the world so that they can take the jobs we thought to provide for our children. Now that's justice, aint it? It is time the American people woke up while we still have a country to wake up in. Standing Bear PS. somebody invented a solar cell that is converts over forty percent of its recieved sunlight into electricity. Now I spent a great deal of time in our good old southwest. And one thing that really stands out is how hot the sun is in the deserts. We have huge areas of them. I could fry eggs on a smooth rock on the shores of Pyramid Lake in Nevada or Mono Lake in California. Once built, solar facilities' maintainance would consist mainly of just dusting the collectors in a well run facility. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 22:54:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l035Ya6v013670; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 21:35:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l035YZM9013663; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 21:34:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 21:34:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 00:31:15 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: weight and charge In-reply-to: <5cebo2pa40lqn37le58v77fkuupfgcbt1n@4ax.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71854 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Earlier I wrote, > You might ask, isn't the function of gravitational mass to attract? This > answer is no. Gravitational mass reflects a body's indifference to having its > gravitational acceleration impeded by another body. > and Robin van Spaandonk responded, >> For in as much as I understood what you wrote above, I get the impression >> that you have simply reversed the definitions of gravitational and inertial >> mass, and without apparent cause as near as I can tell. Well, after giving it some thought, I have decided there is no need (within my theory) to impute inertial mass with the power of gravitational attraction. However, I will explain why I aim to distinguish between inertial and gravitational mass. I contend the law of inertia is over applied . To borrow a phrase from jurisprudence, what matters is the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. The spirit of this law should not apply to the motion of bodies _between_ collisions or beyond obviously mechanical systems. By extending this lawto the motion of gravitating bodies the nature of gravity becomes unduly perplexing. Where are the mechanical linkages? Where are the colliding particles? etc. Einstein's response to this puzzle was to let the logic of the law of inertia dictate the nature of space and time. My response is to leave space and time alone and explain gravitational motion (free fall, projectile, and celestial motion) with concepts that differ from the science of motion known as "mechanics". I explore the metaphysical ground on which the conceptual foundations of mechanics and quantum mechanics are situated. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 00:04:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l036jXAF017679; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 22:46:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l036jWMT017665; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 22:45:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 22:45:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <459B50AD.4040601@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 00:43:57 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: [Vo] LED cheap light References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71856 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charlie, abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > > Second Law circumventing machines could convert two tanks of lukewarm > water into one of cold water and one of hot water with The would, if they could. But I don't think that the second law is any danger from any dingus. Living systems OTOH, can reverse it, and there are reports that they do emit photons, perhaps someone knows more about this. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 00:37:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l037I4xW031927; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 23:19:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l037I1R3031903; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 23:18:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 23:18:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <459B585A.3070404@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 01:16:42 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: What Energy Crisis? References: <410-220061232743613166@earthlink.net><4592985C.6080806@pobox.com><002401c729da$8cfe3db0$5c9d163f@DFBGQZ91><001401c72c77$227f31c0$4bdc163f@DFBGQZ91> <45982C79.1000309@usfamily.net> <001a01c72d4a$e8bd5320$968f163f@DFBGQZ91> In-Reply-To: <001a01c72d4a$e8bd5320$968f163f@DFBGQZ91> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <5bDlaD.A.YyH.pi1mFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71857 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" > >> Over the past year we have discussed a number of areas which might >> provide an unlimited source of pollution free energy. > > I think I will get attacked for this but..... > > What has the ZPE hype ever gotten us? I remember a bunch of stuff To > be honest, we don't even know that ZPE exists in the sense that people > rant about. Puthoff got his articles published in Physical Review, which means that it passed peer review, therefore many physicists agree with him. > > Anti matter is not an energy source, it is an energy storage medium, Since the anti matter generator that Tippler proposes has yet to be built, how do you know that it won't be an energy generator? > Now, if you want to get into violating baryon number and lepton > number, maybe there is some way to "burn" matter into energy As I understand it, the sub atomic particles are composed of three quarks, if it were possible to flip one of them the particle would change. In the previous discussion I mentioned Dale Pond's website about Keely's theories. Keely's diagrams showed atoms, composed of three particles, and the three particles composed of three particles, he contended that these particles could be affected by a vibration of the right frequency, just something to think about. > At some point, people were making blocks of very heavy, poisonous > metals and got the idea to set a couple blocks close to each other, > but finding them is probably a mixture of (hopefully correct) insight, > prayer, and pure damn luck. It's very disingenious of you to attribute the development of nuclear technology to pure dumb luck Kyle. It took thousands of man years of research and analisys > doubt it is going to happen with Republicans or Democrats in power. > Who else is there though? I don't know. I agree, the Powers That Be seem dedicated to making the World's condition deteriorate. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 00:55:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l038K5Gq031215; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 00:21:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l036aieC014066; Tue, 2 Jan 2007 22:36:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 22:36:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 01:33:55 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: correction/weight and charge In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71855 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: > > I contend the law of inertia is over applied . To borrow a phrase from > jurisprudence, what matters is the spirit of the law rather than the letter > of the law. > > The spirit of this law should not apply to the motion of bodies _between_ > collisions or beyond obviously mechanical systems. Sorry, that should read: "The _letter_ of this law should not apply to the motion of bodies _between_ collisions or beyond obviously mechanical systems." Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 04:34:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03CTOUH031472; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 04:29:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03CTMfZ031458; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 04:29:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 04:29:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Lr07UZTKlpei5DnSwBgIJY8a3ImFHQftKFPZ6OBOjWWBWrg05H5ZesRbHye/w6nLsKv6oQ3fKv3QxZc0Z1/bPtZYYLe8/U1KSD0h//aUPxlTLSgsfI4yyry0L4x5kMxdRNo8S68VmWyPbGZdiq3D87kCv/CNWxcMIjtTcnnyxiA= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:29:20 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: China Coal In-Reply-To: <000e01c72eef$0a5088e0$5b037841@xptower> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <000e01c72eef$0a5088e0$5b037841@xptower> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71858 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/2/07, RC Macaulay wrote: > Taking a huge step .. pure conjecture would suggest the names of the > players.. GE and Siemens.. are sufficent to think it fits. > These two players in the great game are not kids nor fools. They don't > invest 1/2 bil bucks in HydroHub Singapore unless they already have their > money back with interest. Here's hoping you're right, Richard. I hate to imagine what this world will be like when my grandchildren are my age otherwise. BTW, speaking of water, I ran across this when reviewing Nature's "top ten" lists: http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060515/full/060515-17.html The geometric progression of the vortex cross section is quite interesting. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 06:46:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03EjuTp030118; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 06:45:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03Ejkh8030051; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 06:45:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 06:45:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:44:59 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71859 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: diode array 070103 Status: O X-Status: Living creatures are very complex but the energy they use can be traced from their food. I don't know why living creatures are not able to nanofabricate subsystems that get energy by getting around the Second Law on the nanometer scale; such creatures would not need food. One answer is that feedstocks are pushed at creatures as they are born, live, and die by various cycles from synergistic partners. Plants that use solar energy were established as partners to animals. Second Law circumventing subsystems were not developed by either or both partners. Now human intelligence has advanced enough to build nanometer scale systems that convert nanometer scale thermal fluctuations into other forms of energy. For example, fabrication technology can form diodes vertically between electrically conductive planes so the diodes are aligned the same way and joined in parallel. The integrated group of diodes then have an asymmetrical response to the random movement of electrons where the diodes collectively passively aggregate net rectified forward current at low voltage into useful D.C. electricity and equal refrigeration. Diode arrays are an unexpected benefit from advances in materials science. Fabricating them is easy for a properly supported development team but difficult for me personally. The diode array does not continue the present pattern of getting rich from selling other, presently used, fuels. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 07:03:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03F2wHM006083; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:02:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03F2peN005977; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:02:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:02:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001b01c72f48$306b5600$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000e01c72eef$0a5088e0$5b037841@xptower> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:02:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71860 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Hydro Hub Status: O X-Status: Richard wrote: > They must have energy so they use coal. China is obviously aware of the > havoc the use of coal will wreak on their long term plans. Consider they > are painfully aware of the need for clean cheap energy,, Taken another > step, it is conceivable they are feverishly searching for such a source. > Taken another step, it is conceivable they have searched the world's data > bases on new energy research and know about research in Cold Fusion and > have known since 1990's. It would not be hard to take the next step and > consider they are researching this field now and are ahead of the rest of > the world. > > Why so, you say?? > A little tidbit of info.. the Hydro Hub of Singapore.. a consortium of > National University of Singapore ( NUS) and some of the leading world > corporations like GE Water and Siemens Water. Why would firms like these > be investing in research in water on such a large and integrated scale ( > co-operative ventures) ? A few scientists in China are working with cold fusion, but it is nowhere ready for China-sized prime time. BlackLight Power is much closer to the starting gate in the big energy game, with much activity in private, and possibly some public moves this year. A quick look at Hydro Hub suggests that the focus of the interest is essentially reverse osmosis for purifying sea water. Already large scale plants provide fresh water for the desert oil empires. Fresh water is going to be a major issue in this century, as important in the Great Game as oil, and it requires lots of energy to produce. China's 500 coal fired electric plants can be new targets of environmental worrry instead of the US. winds will ship the air pollution eastward but will not provide drinking water which Hydro Hub might provide from seawater with electric power from polluting coal. The above may be just a caricature, the truth more complex. With all the focus on Iraq, it is just a sideshow. Mike Carrell > > Because they are aware and know something. What do they know? I suggest > they know of some technology being advanced. Some connection between new > energy forms that have application in water treating. Our tiny company in > Texas is researching a miniscule segment of this new water technology. We > ship product into the Pacific Rim and receive enough feed back to sense a > dynamic emerging out of HydroHub. > > What nation has the must urgent need of a new form of energy? China of > course. They have discovered something and this discovery has application > in other fields of science. > > Taking a huge step .. pure conjecture would suggest the names of the > players.. GE and Siemens.. are sufficent to think it fits. > These two players in the great game are not kids nor fools. They don't > invest 1/2 bil bucks in HydroHub Singapore unless they already have their > money back with interest. > Who in the world is GE anyway??? Well !! think GE Capital Corp and let > that steep awhile.. think Bank of New York and Mellon Bank recent joining > at the hip to manage some 22 TRILLION in assets worldwide. Think WalMart > and Home Depot, the nations largest retailers. Think Boeing and Siemens.. > How do they all fit together.. They are the great game.. not just one of > the players. > > Meanwhile back at the ranch, we are looking, wondering when the science of > Cold Fusion will finally become mainstream. > Answer, it took about 30 seconds after F&P announced their research in the > 1990's for the players in the great game to understand. These people are > tough.. they stay on top.. strong take it away from the weak, the smart > takes it away from the strong, the bank holds the money for the smart. One > of the smartest moves in the past 10 years is.... China forced the brits > let them into Hong Kong banks. Nope, they ain't fools. China now controls > the world's money management system. > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 07:06:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03F6PhX014488; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:06:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03F6Opj014468; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:06:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:06:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ChNzSs/t4/urs/IWUTI+e2sD+7Viy2HLeGEDgvlg3e2uNupZNlnn+NDolfdT1esrXp1lcIZtYCDaa6CsYA0is40jSVBYAQ+NCbpGB0DEuZzYHiYjyGLbGSGLMqhVWLNCYJzyHRsY9xxXgWb/KMnolPz7Zz7ve3llnEMlD4a0gGI= ; X-YMail-OSG: z4CS6A0VM1ll6ZjBtufZ6QZ505u2OpFCBI451MhNXRKd7c9GDzMUbjPe4F8sVdth1nFDJJaawWBlIu8NlDDLyXCyrMYSRGUVZJiE8r2YvBx1Kr60fuKiR5FpCimgzXvOXO3X_Anl4LYP0w-- Message-ID: <459BC66A.3020601@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 07:06:18 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71861 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Quote (smiley) of the Day Status: O X-Status: "To fly 7 million light years to O'Hare [airport in Chicago] and then have to turn around and go home because your gate was occupied is simply unacceptable" http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/02/tech/main2323918.shtml From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 07:15:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03F9eQ6015292; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:09:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03F9Z8W015256; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:09:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:09:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002001c72f49$24636400$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <459B50AD.4040601@usfamily.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: [Vo] LED cheap light Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:09:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71862 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 1:43 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: [Vo] LED cheap light > > The would, if they could. But I don't think that the second law is any > danger from any dingus. Living systems OTOH, can reverse it, and there are > reports that they do emit photons, perhaps someone knows more about this. Living systems do not reverse the second law, which strictly understood refers to ***closed systems***. Living systems are not closed, so they are able to create internal order by manipulating external energy gradients in one way or another. There are numerousn examples of spontaneous self-ordering in non-living chemical systems not in thermal equilibrium. Some studies of cell chemistry find very complex couplings among the molecules, including exchange of photons. Bioluminescence is rather commonplace among sea creatures in the darkness of deep oceans. Mike Carrell > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 07:19:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03FE6Us019898; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:14:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03FE5ND019871; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:14:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:14:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=XYT1t2bntwv1MFfC8jAkoCEPhMSgrf2wk4ZIqZPmWv7ntjuf48s+qM5rxvuW8nRYcTIf3Fne+sp/88ERqWZP7MpqrcyLNhH9r6VXvPLp/pBumwU6pHr72UEiw8QsGNWpAfR+F5KISwv2eRPIzhg7iRWebn3A3LMNMLYjUG+2mSQ=; X-YMail-OSG: 2qPg0MoVM1knID4UPQFKWsPX1uHGoe9qTLDkNlmS Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:13:57 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: [Vo] LED cheap light To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <293752.55360.qm@web62406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <2IU0GD.A.b2E.9g8mFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71863 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Charlie, abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > >> >> Second Law circumventing machines could convert two tanks of lukewarm >> water into one of cold water and one of hot water with > > The would, if they could. But I don't think that the second law is any > danger from any dingus. Living systems OTOH, can reverse it, and there > are reports that they do emit photons, perhaps someone knows more about > this. Dingus? LOL, yea ... right. In about 10 seconds I could show anyone a 2nd Law violation. Connect a carbon composite resistor to an LED and you have a 2nd Law violator, as the LED will emit photons. Create enough of such micro devices and you'll have a bright light source. Regards, Paul Lowrance __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 08:11:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03GAlil022228; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 08:10:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03GAksG022197; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 08:10:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 08:10:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=21nGrJrvZFDjmtwsrNl2QL6JMp7CPqcrVkDFJM9xBv+Gq7Fx0eQvN9qlYhUb+zwmqrDqdgIJUWBfcRyIDPJAECXfHVecywSlTChVcXhGlgQPMynIPV/E/f7beX3A6fJmfNo6hUDVf9rxCCVQ+Qjy8uLpjRkyuORmwGAMGCfRDGI=; X-YMail-OSG: bvaVRtsVM1k8e05zOGTCzemRS94_n23jjNnmiXwwKhMxD.jDHuUlDhKhUX5eSMmdMR6VfLIB3bP7xe8rZGUXduGAkSgAOTrvbmbxUtVNqZwwnf24SeYm0BazJPgdBLvBiofhj93DWYEurg-- Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 07:44:04 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: [Vo] LED cheap light To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <632664.2580.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71864 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 1:43 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: [Vo] LED cheap light > > >> >> The would, if they could. But I don't think that the second law is any >> danger from any dingus. Living systems OTOH, can reverse it, and there >> are reports that they do emit photons, perhaps someone knows more >> about this. > > Living systems do not reverse the second law, which strictly understood > refers to ***closed systems***. Living systems are not closed Quote, "There are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been discussions of it." --Philosopher / Physicist P.W. Bridgman, (1941) The reason there are so many interpretations is because it's one of the most erroneous laws of physics. It's kind of hilarious how some physicists continually append more rules to the 2nd law in attempts to duck tape and repair. Visually the 2nd law is not the size of the empire state building held together by duck tape. In this instance they find the need to falsely state living systems are not a close system. Why? Because living systems break the 2nd law. :-) Humans can be isolated. Fact is Humans have an appreciable free will, which can violate the 2nd law. Lets not waste any more time on the 2nd fictitious law of thermodynamics. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 08:12:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03GBs34023524; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 08:11:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03GBoDl023446; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 08:11:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 08:11:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=L9ox39hi5dUD9wgZtFGDwnrbB869XmGp9K28JSnEn8ySUMGXIm+i5+h9vZLiV6TQgPOpU2QxNfk3SLSdV1y6VePMQmuAIjkvTpUmZSgJOhzhURiYS6a6Evvliur3hrtQZEoqjZI58zTPZiONGLcz3RVDFEGbjuQUxT56Ea5hZ2Y= ; X-YMail-OSG: .0jTMAwVM1mWahcTj3Igd9cI0vqzcYVZmc7xCvRhqki0ZnpfJ6C_yrrgWxy0ly_ACkbKOyrjNhqsTmb.gyUYBmQszTf11TTgTm8MLUXLk3H6fCv5LKbdy74cktLiedW3RL0TM4SjMqny0.2s0J2NGxbAKxwOmLl7dI_FufvwvpdgaX1Y60.H5dYSp_Qp Message-ID: <459BD5C1.3080705@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 08:11:45 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <459B50AD.4040601@usfamily.net> <002001c72f49$24636400$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <002001c72f49$24636400$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71865 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: LED cheap light Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" >> The would, if they could. But I don't think that the second law is >> any danger from any dingus. Living systems OTOH, can reverse it, and >> there are reports that they do emit photons, perhaps someone knows >> more about this. > Living systems do not reverse the second law .... Some studies of cell > chemistry find very complex couplings among the molecules, including > exchange of photons. Bioluminescence is rather commonplace among sea > creatures in the darkness of deep oceans. Mike - as you are a long-standing and vocal supporter of BLP, the hydrino, R. Mills and his theories, and CF - I am a bit surprised that you have not considered the hydrino implications of bioluminescence in the deep oceans - especially with the UV connection to that phenomenon - and plenty of Hy-catalysts available in sea water ... plus the lack of sufficient ambient heat (or food sources) in those extreme locations - to create much of a heat gradient or normal chemical energy source. Not to worry ... Among the many projects on my list of long-neglected R&D for the coming year, once I am appointed chief-overseer and high-muck-a-muck of the total science budget of the NWO, and which projects can be easily handled with the $10 billion which will be saved by immediately canceling ALL hot fusion projects (except maybe for Robert Bussard's) and most funding to MIT (punishment for the CF debacle) is to look for solar-generated hydrinos in nature (oceans and ionosphere) and to look for evolved forms of life which are using them. Among the candidates are: 1) Anything bioluminescent (except for the GM Chinese pigs) 2) Anything which can migrate for thousands of miles without eating (butterflies and hummingbirds) 3) Anything which can hibernate for months on insufficient food 4) Bacteria which can survive in extreme conditions w/o an adequate food source. BTW - it could be that in some extreme situation "food" as normally defined is most useful for the amino acids and minerals necessary to replace worn tissue - and to supplement the "alternative" source of energy - which can be based on "supra-chemical" reactions ... which BTW are not limited to the hydrino, and may well involve 18O, the heavy isotope of oxygen. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 09:43:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03HhLcF020220; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 09:43:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03HhESD020172; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 09:43:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 09:43:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 17:42:25 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71866 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 2LoT repeal 070103 Status: O X-Status: One great thing Alexander the great did was slice away a complicated knot that got in his way. I've heard enough about the Second Law to assert that it won't stop several types of nanometer scale devices and one type of bulk device from working. Let's build some working 2LoT circumventing devices this year. This could save the Chinese from poisoning themselves and increase prosperity. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 10:49:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03ImtBW008235; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:48:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03ImoEC008149; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:48:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:48:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200701031847.l03IlMCM002111@mail2.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:47:21 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Quote (smiley) of the Day Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_7536b363a85ca86eda45f79644a48975" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: <5MKSd.A.M_B.Rq_mFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71867 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_7536b363a85ca86eda45f79644a48975 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From Jones Beene, > > "To fly 7 million light years to O'Hare [airport in > Chicago] and then have to turn around and go home > because your gate was occupied is simply unacceptable" > > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/02/tech/main2323918.shtml > I could find myself pontificating lot on this recent flap, but it's all been said before ad nauseam. Eventual acceptance of the phenomenon is likely to follow the rules-of-engagement as outlined in the book titled "Emergence: The Connected Lives of Ants, Brains, Cities", by Steven Johnson, no relation! ;-) Keeping that in mind I also predict that when we finally figure out how to manufacture our own antigravity vehicles, when we start moving about with relative ease between the planets in the solar system in our own made-on-planet-earth GM, Mitsubishi, or Hugo "antigrav" spaceships, only then will UFOs and their magical-like antigravity powers no longer seem so ominous to the spear holders. Only then will their continued sightings be tolerated. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_7536b363a85ca86eda45f79644a48975 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > From Jones Beene,
>
> "To fly 7 million light years to O'Hare [airport in
> Chicago] and then have to turn around and go home
> because your gate was occupied is simply unacceptable"
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/02/tech/main2323918.shtml
>

I could find myself pontificating lot on this recent flap, but it's all bee= n said before ad nauseam.

Eventual acceptance of the phenomenon is likely to follow the rules-of-enga= gement as outlined in the book titled "Emergence: The Connected Lives of An= ts, Brains, Cities", by Steven Johnson, no relation! ;-)

Keeping that in mind I also predict that when we finally figure out how to = manufacture our own antigravity vehicles, when we start moving about with r= elative ease between the planets in the solar system in our own made-on-pla= net-earth GM, Mitsubishi, or Hugo "antigrav" spaceships, only then will UFO= s and their magical-like antigravity powers no longer seem so ominous to th= e spear holders. Only then will their continued sightings be tolerated.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_7536b363a85ca86eda45f79644a48975-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 11:04:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03J45In018339; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 11:04:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03J42wd018290; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 11:04:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 11:04:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:02:27 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: [Vo] LED cheap light In-reply-to: <632664.2580.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71868 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Life is both constructive and productive. However, our culture does not have a balanced appreciation of both. Productive processes and measures are over emphasised. The laws of thermodynamics address the productive aspects of life. They fail to address the constructive aspects of life. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 12:34:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03KXuWZ006114; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:33:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03KXsQ7006079; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:33:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:33:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Joseph Yater patented such arrays years ago... Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:33:52 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jan 2007 20:33:55.0623 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D2F0B70:01C72F76] Resent-Message-ID: <-nqSnD.A.yeB.yMBnFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71869 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, Joe Yater spent many years working with and patenting such diode arrays. He even testified before a Congressional Committee regarding their unrecognized potential. More recent work in thermionics by others, such as Borealis Power, may have superseded his work. Mark >From: >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: [Vo]: diode array 070103 >Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 14:44:59 +0000 > >Living creatures are very complex but the energy they use can be traced >from their food. I don't know why living creatures are not able to >nanofabricate subsystems that get energy by getting around the Second Law >on the nanometer scale; such creatures would not need food. One answer is >that feedstocks are pushed at creatures as they are born, live, and die by >various cycles from synergistic partners. Plants that use solar energy were >established as partners to animals. Second Law circumventing subsystems >were not developed by either or both partners. > >Now human intelligence has advanced enough to build nanometer scale systems >that convert nanometer scale thermal fluctuations into other forms of >energy. For example, fabrication technology can form diodes vertically >between electrically conductive planes so the diodes are aligned the same >way and joined in parallel. The integrated group of diodes then have an >asymmetrical response to the random movement of electrons where the diodes >collectively passively aggregate net rectified forward current at low >voltage into useful D.C. electricity and equal refrigeration. > >Diode arrays are an unexpected benefit from advances in materials science. >Fabricating them is easy for a properly supported development team but >difficult for me personally. > >The diode array does not continue the present pattern of getting rich from >selling other, presently used, fuels. > >Aloha, > >Charlie > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 12:45:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03KjH7e015133; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:45:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03KjGRO015111; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:45:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 12:45:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joseph Yater patented such arrays years ago... Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 07:45:17 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8c5op25korg0b62r4luaphup93fm410l5a@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 3 Jan 2007 20:45:16 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l03KjEJs015076 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71870 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:33:52 -0800: Hi, [snip] >More recent work in thermionics by others, such as Borealis Power, may have >superseded his work. [snip] The Borealis work depends on a temperature differential. No violation of 2LoT involved. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 13:42:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03Lfr4r028215; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:41:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03Lfa4M027957; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:41:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:41:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <459C22FA.8040606@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:41:14 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: diode array 070103 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71872 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > Living creatures are very complex but the energy they use can be > traced from their food. I don't know why living creatures are not The web of life takes solar energy and converts it into phytochemicals, a first concentration which animals them consume. The chemicals and systems become progressively more complex, ending in the human brain. IMHO, this is clear violation of the 2nd law, and the only one that I know of. Your mention of photonic emissions brought to mind a report that I'd heard of to that living organisms do that. > > Diode arrays are an unexpected benefit from advances in materials > science. Fabricating them is easy for a properly supported development > team but difficult for me personally. The system you describe could be used to power electric circuits, there by relieving the need for batteries. Batteries for consumer electronics are a large market segment, and if they can be shown to work, some group will build them. The key word there is shown to work. When they do, I'm looking forward to testing them. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 13:42:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03Lfs13028217; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:41:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03Lf7NH027739; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:41:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:41:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mZXsy8ECJ7ImbWBIUze4sqpv2V7wCT8AICE4csx+pov6CtRTArz07o5zIyMRaPEQO/9ZzidSERg3u+ghMNNJvSs035cPog5g3EBYPidyfYcwcTiuRYJuLuO2N1eUUotkwSI14zDNCMn1qYbzGxRFaDF76hRIxdywmn4rkvL47bs= ; Message-ID: <20070103214103.35137.qmail@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:41:03 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Joseph Yater patented such arrays years ago... To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1956392536-1167860463=:33892" Resent-Message-ID: <52_kLD.A.XxG.yLCnFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71871 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1956392536-1167860463=:33892 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Robin van Spaandonk =0A=0AIn reply to = Mark Goldes' message =0A=0A>More recent work in thermionics by others, such= as Borealis Power, may have =0A>superseded his work.=0A=0AThe Borealis wor= k depends on a temperature differential. No violation of 2LoT=0Ainvolved.= =0A=0A=0A=0AThis may be a bit of a logical error (either/or). There are cer= tainly=0Asituations imaginable but unproven where both could be present - a= nd=0ABorealis is one of them - i.e there could be both a temperature=0Adiff= erential and problems with the laws of physics and blackbody radiation - wi= th the former obscuring=0Athe later. =0A=0A=0APersonally, as to Borealis it= self and because of anecdotal=0Ainconsistencies (and even claims of fraud) = in their past claims from people who have=0Avisited; and continuous delays = without a prototype - there is little=0Acertainty that what they have claim= ed is real at all; but if it is=0Areal, it certainly is outside the laws of= physics even though a small=0Aheat differential is being utilized.=0A=0A= =0A=0A=0A=0AIn the words of a potential investor four years ago: "I=0Aunder= stand speculation, which is fine, but this is bordering on fraud. Did you= =0Aread the annual report? What caught my attention was the line that net i= ncome=0Ain the year 2007 should, according to business plans, be in the nei= ghborhood of=0Awell, $16 billion! It=92s right there on page 7: $4 billion = from the Chorus motor=0Aand another $12 billion from the Cool Chips. For th= ose of you keeping score at=0Ahome that means this little company should be= the most profitable company on=0Athe planet in 5 SHORT YEARS. With no=0Ac= urrent revenues! This would be the=0Aworld's biggest success story. Be real= ! The fact that they would print that in an=0Aannual report =96 it's just = not right to make such outlandish statements. It=0Aruins their credibility.= Are you=0Acomfortable with the board being compromised primarily of famil= y members? Seven of the 12 directors are named Cox. This Borealis is one = whopper of a=0Astory."=0A=0A=0AMeans nothing of course, except hyperbole - = as they have now withdrawn that foolish information - and if they can deliv= er eventually, then they might escape SEC sanctions - but as to the physics= of this.... I was planning to try to delve into Ron Stiffler's comment abo= ut the=0A"dimensional" aspects of heat - as there seems to be something to = it - especially when one=0Alooks at adiabatic anomalies; but he apparently = signed-off of vortex=0Alast week and it is not clear what angle he was look= ing at. At nano-dimensions, it is possible that ZPE in the guise of a Casim= ir-like force can serve accentuate heat transfer at the QM level. Maybe tha= t is what Borealis has seen - of it is not a scam.=0A=0AIn which case, one = might expect to find both a temperature=0Adifferential and a problem with t= he laws of thermodynamics - with the former obscuring=0Athe later. =0A=0A= =0AJones=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-1956392536-1167860463=:33892 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original Message ----
From: Robin van Spaa= ndonk

In reply to  Mark Gold= es' message

>More recent work in thermionics by others, such as = Borealis Power, may have
>superseded his work.

The Borealis w= ork depends on a temperature differential. No violation of 2LoT
involved= .


=0AThis may be a bit of a logical error (either/or). There are= certainly=0Asituations imaginable but unproven where both could be present= - and=0ABorealis is one of them - i.e there could be both a temperature=0A= differential and problems with the laws of physics and blackbody radiation = - with the former obscuring=0Athe later.

=0APersonally, as to Borea= lis itself and because of anecdotal=0Ainconsistencies (and even claims of f= raud) in their past claims from people who have=0Avisited; and continuous d= elays without a prototype - there is little=0Acertainty that what they have= claimed is real at all; but if it is=0Areal, it certainly is outside the l= aws of physics even though a small=0Aheat differential is being utilized.=0A=0A=0A=0A
In the words of a potential inves= tor four years ago: "I=0Aunderstand speculation, which is fine, but this is= bordering on fraud. Did you=0Aread the annual report? What caught my atten= tion was the line that net income=0Ain the year 2007 should, according to b= usiness plans, be in the neighborhood of=0Awell, $16 billion! It=92s right = there on page 7: $4 billion from the Chorus motor=0Aand another $12 billion= from the Cool Chips. For those of you keeping score at=0Ahome that means t= his little company should be the most profitable company on=0Athe planet in= 5 SHORT YEARS.  With no=0Acurrent revenues! <= span style=3D"">This would be the=0Aworld's biggest success story. <= span style=3D"">Be real!  The fact that= they would print that in an=0Aannual report =96 it's just not right to mak= e such outlandish statements. It=0Aruins their credibility.  Are you=0Acomfortable with the board being compromised prima= rily of family members?  Seven of the 12 direc= tors are named Cox.  T= his Borealis is one whopper of a=0Astory."

=0AMeans nothing of cours= e, except hyperbole - as they have now withdrawn that foolish information -= and if they can deliver eventually, then they might escape SEC sanctions -= but as to the physics of this.... I was planning to try to delve into Ron = Stiffler's comment about the=0A"dimensional" aspects of heat - as there see= ms to be something to it - especially when one=0Alooks at adiabatic anomali= es; but he apparently signed-off of vortex=0Alast week and it is not clear = what angle he was looking at. At nano-dimensions, it is possible that ZPE i= n the guise of a Casimir-like force can serve accentuate heat transfer at t= he QM level. Maybe that is what Borealis has seen - of it is not a scam.
In which case, one might expect to find both a= temperature=0Adifferential and a problem with the laws of thermodynamics -= with the former obscuring=0Athe later.

=0A= Jones


 =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
--0-1956392536-1167860463=:33892-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 13:54:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03LrvjG003061; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:53:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03LrrTB003012; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:53:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:53:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <459C25D8.20107@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 15:53:28 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: [Vo] LED cheap light References: <459B50AD.4040601@usfamily.net> <002001c72f49$24636400$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <002001c72f49$24636400$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71873 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" > >> >> The would, if they could. But I don't think that the second law is >> any danger from any dingus. Living systems OTOH, can reverse it, and >> there are reports that they do emit photons, perhaps someone knows >> more about this. > IMHO the closed system is the solar system. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 14:13:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03MCseL011906; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:12:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03MCr8r011893; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:12:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:12:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <459C2A56.3020503@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:12:38 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: [Vo] LED cheap light References: <632664.2580.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <632664.2580.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71874 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: >Mike Carrell wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas malloy" > > > >> The would, if they could. But I don't think that the second law is any danger from any dingus. Living systems OTOH, can > > Mike said > > Living systems do not reverse the second law, which >strictly understood refers to ***closed systems***. Living systems are not closed > Paul said >The reason there are so many interpretations is because it's one of the most erroneous laws of physics. > That depends on how you intepretate it. > It's kind of hilarious how some physicists continually append more rules to the 2nd law in attempts to duck tape and repair. Visually the 2nd law is not the size of the empire state building held together by duck tape. In this instance they find the need to falsely state living systems are not a >close system. > I agree > Why? Because living systems break the 2nd law. :-) Humans >can be isolated. > What do you mean by that remark? > Fact is Humans have an appreciable free will, which >can violate the 2nd law. > >Lets not waste any more time on the 2nd fictitious law >of thermodynamics. :-) > Which one of you, by the force of your will, or any dingus can take two containers of warm water and make one steam and the other freeze? It's not a fictitious law. heat migrates from a higher thermal gradient to a lower one, dinguses (dingi?) deteriorate. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 14:40:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03Me6NQ020492; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:40:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03Me0Je020412; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:40:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 14:40:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <459C3049.4020208@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 16:38:01 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71875 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: addendim to LED Cheap light Status: O X-Status: It just occurred to me that with two containers of warm water it would be possible to make one steam and the other freeze with a heat pump. Of course that requires energy from outside the system. So, make that a self powered heat pump, hum, perhaps one that repairs itself too. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 15:10:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l03NAeJm015680; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:10:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l03NAWHc015641; Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:10:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:10:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=qM9eRg4yiAcPRqCEG4qpHea/95Lo/rA+J9VLFTXjyRXceXse44AKTAYLM/fhx37Cz2JieMSfZ+5wALaEYoTw9EHyMtXcXN+D42NCCHuOuBfXdHobRuqi8ynLpTIR051Gc29jHpopAets7r5qozD2QPvYDFNzgpJNBiP3CAy8qlo=; X-YMail-OSG: wcsQql8VM1m8hFLivdIAyrJZz0ATKLqupI_TawIf Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:10:26 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: [Vo] LED cheap light To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <591989.43652.qm@web62415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <6XeYHD.A.V0D.nfDnFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71876 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: >> Lets not waste any more time on the 2nd fictitious law >> of thermodynamics. :-) >> > Which one of you, by the force of your will, or any dingus can take two > containers of warm water and make one steam and the other freeze? It's > not a fictitious law. heat migrates from a higher thermal gradient to a > lower one, dinguses (dingi?) deteriorate. Don't you believe the migrating of heat from higher to lower thermal gradient is merely a naturally occurrence in nature and by no means a law? By intelligence we can device a closed loop system where one part remains at a lower temperature than another part. For example, consider a noisy resistor connected in series with an LED, where the LED is coated so as to absorb its own photons. In such a case the LED remains hotter than the resistor. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 12:11:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l04KBjlF023170; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:11:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l04KBYbZ023048; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:11:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:11:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 15:11:20 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71877 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets Status: O X-Status: See: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19920005899_1992005899.pdf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket It is interesting to think about how one might apply high temperature CF for a rocket engine. I am rewriting my book, based on the Japanese edition which I just finished writing. I am thinking about beefing up the rocket propulsion section. My problem is that I know next to nothing about rockets, so I better run this subject by the audience here, especially Ed Storms who is an expert in nuclear propulsion. I would like to know how much mass of propellant a rocket would require to launch from earth to orbit, and from earth to Mars. Based on the Wiki paper it seems fission rockets from earth to orbit did not have many advantages over conventional ones, but the transit to Mars would be a lot faster. A 50 MW engine described in Ref. 1 consumed 2.36 kg/s of hydrogen propellant (0.05 kg/MW), and a 5 GW NERVA rocket that was the planned would have consumed 121 kg/s (0.02 kg/MW). This 5 GW unit would have been remarkably small. If I do my calculations right, it would produce as much energy in one day (0.97 days) as a 100 kiloton nuclear bomb, which is astounding. For a deep space engine, people have been talking about using high ISP Ion thrusters. According to Wiki and other sources, these have about an order of magnitude better than liquid fuel rocket engines, but a very poor power/weight ratio, and a very low propellant flow. Apparently you cannot just increase the flow to any level you like. Perhaps with a CF power supply you could generate 50 MW or even gigawatts continuously for months. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster#Thrust According to Wiki the best possible ion engine would be linear particle accelerator for specific impulse of 30 million seconds (!) but you cannot push much mass through one so the actual thrust is negligible. It is not clear to me whether this is a design limitation or whether it is because people do not have portable 5 GW electric power supplies. I am not sure what kind of generator would work for this. Thermoelectric generation might work; electrohydrodynamics would be great; but I was thinking perhaps one could use water to drive a steam turbine, condense and recycle some of the steam (with large cooling fins I suppose), and then reheat some of the other waste steam for propellant. Plan B might be a high temperature CF can be used to heat the propellent (hydrogen or water) to high temperature gas, and perhaps something like lasers with CF generated electricity then boosts the gas temperature far above the melting point of the CF cell, kind of like an inertial confinement hot fusion reactor. Of course converting heat to electricity and using lasers would be energy inefficient but as I said the idea would be to conserve propellant. What we want are rockets that can achieve continuous 1 G thrust with a payload of, say, 20,000 DWT (a small freight ship). Assuming the ratio of ship to payload is the same as a Boeing 747, the empty ship would weight about 30,000 tons. I have no idea how much the propellant would weigh, or how much energy it would take. 1 G carries you to the moon in ~3 hours, which is about as long as I care to be crammed into a seat. I am not sure how long it would take to get to Mars at kind of acceleration (of course it depends on how far away Mars is at the moment) . . . NASA says Mars is usually about 78,300,000 km away (http://aerospacescholars.jsc.nasa.gov/HAS/cirr/em/9/2.cfm) and it takes about 6 months to get there, but they figure it can be reduced to 4 months (http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/mars/marsprof.html). With constant 1 G acceleration I gather it would take around 3 days. That's more like it! See: http://www.cthreepo.com/cp_html/math1.htm Enter 39 million for half the trip; ignore earth's gravity. This comes out 2 days. A more sophisticated calculator: http://home.att.net/~srschmitt/script_starship.html For Mars, enter 1.5 AU (from data shown below on this page), and 1 G. It comes out 3.5 days. The longest trip in the solar system would be 17 days. Alpha Centuri is 3.5 years for the person on board, 5.9 years earth time, taking into account special relativity. 20,000 DWT is fine for Mars, but for interstellar travel you want to bring all your stuff. So let's Think Big. Even 30,000 tons is peanuts by the standards of modern container ships. For interstellar travel done right, I say take a fleet of 1,000 container ships, each with a 151,000 tons payload. Now that would take a lot of energy and a lot of propellant! - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 12:35:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l04KYo58031621; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:34:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l04KYjI4031591; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:34:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:34:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=QYl1WYdOMcurGK8giMg67SW+bY5Oylnsr4r9XJ+y2/lZ6Ko87L1nZmJCUf+XlDTJRCc89xDADn6N6fx7CRiUIdCy+H2nnzLnx2DeGFIBLsCpqm04spL1N/zO0o8yN7LS9kk+Xw3kgvdCBAjSgHxUnPft59tYwofraxuXHYowP0o= ; X-YMail-OSG: LYAzGlYVM1m_45AkEhJegGqc9_HpztiIcoi1pAOIbtE76uNAJB1o0SmlGztR6hPBmgYGlKj5dJGTt53GdwayiXfNGQDqbcMK__VNggFeexOqu6PlHnTJvkJvF34clH4N7x03unFn0zUNvxc- Message-ID: <459D64E1.6020609@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 12:34:41 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71878 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > I would like to know how much mass of propellant a rocket would > require to launch from earth to orbit, and from earth to Mars. Not all that much - if you do not carry the propellant into orbit ! - but instead adapt the power source to Bussard's nuclear ram-jet idea.... where you collect the propellant in the ionosphere. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet But then again - why not use the dollar resources (if they were available) to perfect Bussard's boron/proton small ICF Fusor design - since it is the evolution of a well-researched project already having twenty years and thousands of man-hours of development in place - is more robust than LENR and probably would cost less to develop to the mulit-megawatt level anyway, and also to put into space - than any imagineable CF powered device ? IOW (and given that CF has many advantages for smaller home-sized - even robot-sized power sources - so this is not intended as a put-down) what would be the comparative advantages of LENR in this application over warm fusion (the ICF Fusor) ? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 12:53:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l04KrAOt014243; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:53:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l04Kr9NE014223; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:53:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:53:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20070104205308.49359.qmail@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=MA47SfJvm8k4ts3eVct6VS743bWTwDr/993Sr5OGsIrzuOwfPHB0TZN0o1T++dS7SaqviEu+75hk9c68NfCCVwIFTYJ0xjnpAlx3vrfr891LApBOO4UltK4d7rhYMEATEPJaUgPQipY+N09Q96ojTCdoDWh6UFQtguoJsvKxsRc=; X-YMail-OSG: nXX.SCYVM1njkfA5haEWra3m62W2I7MYK_3fh6FgtEz52c.qKuafJCIQnlsGFbI1aaDxLXcxnL5YmzwioQe.cQYoivIYidQRd1CKT.bCM4WGvgXkKVljPrRPXPQACgAeDDDq9eLa2W.PgPRSruyK4e1B Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:53:07 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: small footprint cheap energy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <7lOZL.A.LeD.1kWnFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71879 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > Diode arrays may get us out of the poor polluted and pitiful energy > situation. On http://www.freewebs.com/diodearray I list more serious > versions of the novelties listed at Vo: The possibilities are so great > that they are hard to restrain. Broadcasters would appreciate high > altitude transmitting stationary aircraft. Pedestrians would benefit > from snow and ice free heated sidewalks or, perhaps, more practically, > heated footwear. We can also insulate more if fiberglass wool can be > made and installed more cheaply. However, high bypass heating or air > conditioning would provide fresher air. Diode arrays do not produce or > eliminate energy but they may convert conventionally dead heat into > efficiently usable electricity. Diode arrays may be powerful enough to > power a fuelless heavier than air aircraft. Alternately cheap energy > could be used to loft roadways of light strong materials in the air on > fans. Dispersed lights operating on absorbed heat in oilge vats would > increase the productivity of those besties. > Aloha, Charlie An LED will generate photons when connected to a noisy resistor. An LED will generate photons at *any* voltage level, below forward voltage, even though LED's are far more efficient at the forward voltage. Furthermore, there's no upper crest voltage limit to thermal noise. That is "free energy," but an infinitesimal amount. It is possible to fit billions of such LED's and R's in a small area, which would generate a significant amount of light. Also note that voltage noise from composite resistors increases with a decrease in size; e.g., a 1 micron 1 Gohm R generates more noise than a 1 inch 1 Gohm R. Regards, Paul __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 12:56:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l04Kugmq019074; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:56:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l04KueAY019050; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:56:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:56:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104154101.03de9518@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 15:56:22 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets In-Reply-To: <459D64E1.6020609@pacbell.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> <459D64E1.6020609@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71880 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >>I would like to know how much mass of propellant a rocket would >>require to launch from earth to orbit, and from earth to Mars. > > >Not all that much - if you do not carry the propellant into orbit ! >- but instead adapt the power source to Bussard's nuclear ram-jet >idea.... where you collect the propellant in the ionosphere. Okay, that takes care of earth to orbit. How about orbit to Mars? A similar approach would be a conventional jet engine lifter to bring the vehicle high into the atmosphere before rockets alone carry it to orbit. In other words, a gigantic version of the Rutan SpaceShipOne design. Of course I would prefer a space elevator, but for oversized packages one might want a large earth-to-orbit vehicle. I do not see much point to a large vehicle that can go from the ground on earth all the way to Mars. Maybe earth to moon would be practical (especially with 1 G constant acceleration), but the 20,000 DWT freighters I have in mind would transfer freight and passengers at an orbital station or on the moon. Getting back to earth is another problem. One of the biggest problems with the Space Shuttle is the excessive wear and tear on reentry. That is to say, using atmospheric friction to slow down. It would be better to slow down in space with retro rockets and then land more like a VTOL, more or less straight down, with rocket engines to break the fall, as it were. The big space-bourne 20,000 DWT earth-to-Mars vehicles would never re-enter. They would be disposed of on the Moon or Mars. I suppose they would never take off in the first place; they would be assembled in orbit or on the Moon. >But then again - why not use the dollar resources (if they were >available) to perfect Bussard's boron/proton small ICF Fusor design . . . I do not know how close that is to practicality. Some of the high temperature CF reactions such as glow discharge may become practical sooner. But in any case, I meant cold fusion in the broadest sense; i.e., fusion-colder-than-conventional- plasma-fusion, which would include Bussard's work. >. . . what would be the comparative advantages of LENR in this >application over warm fusion (the ICF Fusor) ? None. But suppose only CF is made practical, and the temperature is limited to, say, 1000 deg C. I suppose that would call for a two- or three-stage approach, starting with heat to electricity. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 13:42:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l04Lg8FS005242; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 13:42:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l04Lg2lQ005200; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 13:42:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 13:42:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: O5XxE90VM1nN5wRr0Y9zfgMq4eE3zCBgUIif7FaiL7HStgYe0rJvbv6SMr5rzGjfMnEPLHAWq8toDW9hSu4T4bw6J7.QU8auXof7PpQLGeGoprZIdvZ2XAjeYpU2B3OSp2FjUm5x.9OQA6sMcJnqq2aKkI.ASCvwYA-- Message-ID: <459D74A6.3060309@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 16:41:58 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71881 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > See: > > http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19920005899_1992005899.pdf > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket > > It is interesting to think about how one might apply high temperature CF > for a rocket engine. I am rewriting my book, based on the Japanese > edition which I just finished writing. I am thinking about beefing up > the rocket propulsion section. My problem is that I know next to nothing > about rockets, so I better run this subject by the audience here, > especially Ed Storms who is an expert in nuclear propulsion. > > I would like to know how much mass of propellant a rocket would require > to launch from earth to orbit, and from earth to Mars. Single stage to orbit (stupid with conventional rockets but easy to compute): Rocket equation is V_f - V_i = V_e * log(M_i/M_f) where V_f = final velocity, V_i = initial velocity, V_e = exhaust velocity, M_i = initial mass, M_f = final mass, and log = natural log Escape velocity is about 7 miles per second, IIRC, or about 11,000 meters/sec. Exhaust velocity with a kerosene rocket (like Saturn V) is about 3000 meters/sec according to a random website. So 11,000 = 3,000 * log(M_i/M_f) log(M_i/M_f) = 3.7 M_i/M_f = exp(3.7) = 39 and you need to use up about 97% of your mass to get to escape velocity. Orbital speed is about half escape velocity but since it's a logarithmic relationship it doesn't make much difference -- just getting to orbit takes almost as much fuel as getting to escape velocity. That's why nobody uses single-stage-to-orbit rockets fired by kerosene, of course. Multiple stages improve the result dramatically. Different fuel can help, too. H/O gives a higher exhaust velocity (I think) but it's very bulky (witness the shuttle external tank). With a chemical rocket, reaction temperature and mass of the molecules most likely are the most important issues in determining the exhaust velocity, though nozzle design plays a big part too. Ideally, I suppose, you want a reaction which releases a great deal of energy and has as its result nothing but hydrogen atoms. > Based on the Wiki > paper it seems fission rockets from earth to orbit did not have many > advantages over conventional ones, And they pollute like the devil if you fire them in the atmosphere... > but the transit to Mars would be a > lot faster. > > A 50 MW engine described in Ref. 1 consumed 2.36 kg/s of hydrogen > propellant (0.05 kg/MW), and a 5 GW NERVA rocket that was the planned > would have consumed 121 kg/s (0.02 kg/MW). I don't understand this. It's not obvious to me how you give a power rating to a rocket engine, save possibly by rating the energy released by the fuel (most of which is typically lost as heat). The actual power the engine gives to the vehicle is a function of the velocity, and goes as velocity*thrust. At zero velocity the power is zero (all the energy goes into heat). If you have enough fuel, the power imparted can become arbitrarily large as the velocity increases. This is not unlike the situation with an automobile engine, where power = torque*rpm. The difference is that "rpm" is replaced with "velocity". > This 5 GW unit would have > been remarkably small. If I do my calculations right, it would produce > as much energy in one day (0.97 days) as a 100 kiloton nuclear bomb, > which is astounding. > > For a deep space engine, people have been talking about using high ISP > Ion thrusters. According to Wiki and other sources, these have about an > order of magnitude better than liquid fuel rocket engines, but a very > poor power/weight ratio, and a very low propellant flow. Apparently you > cannot just increase the flow to any level you like. Perhaps with a CF > power supply you could generate 50 MW or even gigawatts continuously for > months. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster#Thrust > > According to Wiki the best possible ion engine would be linear particle > accelerator for specific impulse of 30 million seconds (!) but you > cannot push much mass through one so the actual thrust is negligible. As long as it's a rocket, the rocket equation dominates everything, and you are stuck with delta-V being proportional to exhaust velocity. So, you want as high an exhaust velocity as possible. Ion engines can approach V_e=C, which is as good as it gets. > It > is not clear to me whether this is a design limitation or whether it is > because people do not have portable 5 GW electric power supplies. > > I am not sure what kind of generator would work for this. Thermoelectric > generation might work; electrohydrodynamics would be great; but I was > thinking perhaps one could use water to drive a steam turbine, condense > and recycle some of the steam (with large cooling fins I suppose), and > then reheat some of the other waste steam for propellant. > > Plan B might be a high temperature CF can be used to heat the propellent > (hydrogen or water) to high temperature gas, and perhaps something like > lasers with CF generated electricity then boosts the gas temperature far > above the melting point of the CF cell, kind of like an inertial > confinement hot fusion reactor. Of course converting heat to electricity > and using lasers would be energy inefficient but as I said the idea > would be to conserve propellant. > > What we want are rockets that can achieve continuous 1 G thrust with a > payload of, say, 20,000 DWT (a small freight ship). Assuming the ratio > of ship to payload is the same as a Boeing 747, the empty ship would > weight about 30,000 tons. I have no idea how much the propellant would > weigh, or how much energy it would take. 1 G carries you to the moon in > ~3 hours, which is about as long as I care to be crammed into a seat. I > am not sure how long it would take to get to Mars at kind of > acceleration (of course it depends on how far away Mars is at the > moment) . . . > > NASA says Mars is usually about 78,300,000 km away > (http://aerospacescholars.jsc.nasa.gov/HAS/cirr/em/9/2.cfm) and it takes > about 6 months to get there, but they figure it can be reduced to 4 > months (http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/mars/marsprof.html). With > constant 1 G acceleration I gather it would take around 3 days. That's > more like it! See: > > http://www.cthreepo.com/cp_html/math1.htm > > Enter 39 million for half the trip; ignore earth's gravity. This comes > out 2 days. > > A more sophisticated calculator: > > http://home.att.net/~srschmitt/script_starship.html > > For Mars, enter 1.5 AU (from data shown below on this page), and 1 G. It > comes out 3.5 days. The longest trip in the solar system would be 17 > days. Alpha Centuri is 3.5 years for the person on board, 5.9 years > earth time, taking into account special relativity. > > 20,000 DWT is fine for Mars, but for interstellar travel you want to > bring all your stuff. So let's Think Big. Even 30,000 tons is peanuts by > the standards of modern container ships. For interstellar travel done > right, I say take a fleet of 1,000 container ships, each with a 151,000 > tons payload. Now that would take a lot of energy and a lot of propellant! > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 14:45:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l04Miwl3004705; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:44:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l04MiupL004681; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:44:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:44:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c73051$eb820740$b690163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 17:44:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71882 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Cold fusion powered rockets Status: O X-Status: Hmmm. If you can find some way to make the temperature high enough (interesting, high temperature cold fusion....heh), and I mean bloody high, that is, a pure fusion explosion, then we are all set. Pure fusion Orion. IIRC, one of the Orion proposals was to weigh a few thousand tons, and with about 1100 bombs, could get anywhere in the solar system within a couple months. Launching from the ground is a bit problematic with conventional fission bombs, but if we can figure a way to make a pure fusion bomb, this problem is eliminated. EMP footprint might be troublesome, so launch from someplace very far away from inhabited areas. On the gripping hand, if it is possible to 'bombify' CF, the political implications are probably not so simple.* The BIS Project Daedalus was fusion based, wasn't it? Have to go look that up again. --Kyle *If that isn't an understatement, then I don't know what is! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 14:52:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l04Mpsg3008899; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:51:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l04MpohW008835; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:51:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:51:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104171531.03e1fa60@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 17:51:36 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets In-Reply-To: <459D74A6.3060309@pobox.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> <459D74A6.3060309@pobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71883 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >>but the transit to Mars would be a lot faster. >>A 50 MW engine described in Ref. 1 consumed 2.36 kg/s of hydrogen >>propellant (0.05 kg/MW), and a 5 GW NERVA rocket that was the >>planned would have consumed 121 kg/s (0.02 kg/MW). > >I don't understand this. It's not obvious to me how you give a >power rating to a rocket engine, save possibly by rating the energy >released by the fuel (most of which is typically lost as heat). See Ref. 1, p. 73: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19920005899_1992005899.pdf This shows 4 nuclear rocket engines with a rocket engineer standing between them. #4 is a Phoebus 2, 1967, 5000 megawatts output (!!!), 250,000 lb thrust. It is only about 3 times taller than the guy, which is astounding to me. I did not know it was possible to generate 5 GW in an object this size without the whole thing melting. Also, this engine uses a mere 121 kg of hydrogen propellent per second. Anyway -- if I have this right -- 250,000 lb thrust = 1,112,055 N, and 1 G of thrust on 1 kg of mass = 9.8 N. In other words, this gadget could push 113,475 kg at a steady 1 G. 113 tons. And if that mass was going from earth to Mars in 3 days (302,400 seconds) it would use 37,000 tons of hydrogen . . . give or take. So that doesn't work out very well. Of course conventional rocket engines are not meant to run for 3 days straight, but I would like one that does. So obviously we need a much higher amount of energy imparted to each kg of propellant. The Phoebus 2 imparts 41,322 kW per kg of propellent, which is way better than a solid or bipropellant rocket, but still 30 times below the 1.25 GJ per kg imparted by an ion thruster. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacecraft_propulsion >As long as it's a rocket, the rocket equation dominates everything, >and you are stuck with delta-V being proportional to exhaust >velocity. So, you want as high an exhaust velocity as >possible. Ion engines can approach V_e=C, which is as good as it gets. The exhaust velocity of an actual Ion engine is about 50,000 m/s, way below the speed of light. Maybe there are newer ones that do better? I would like to know what can actually be done with present day materials and techniques. Anyway, this is only 30 times better than the Pheobus, which is nice but . . . What I want to know is, is it even theoretically possible to make an Ion thruster of approximately the same mass as the Phoebus 2 that produces 5 GW of power? It would be great if the thing could impart, let us say, 1000 times more energy per kg to the propellant. That would cut the 37,000 tons down to 37 tons, which is quite manageable. It much less than the fuel burden of a 747 that flies its maximum range (about 96 tons). Heck, I'd settle for one that is merely 300 times better than the best nuclear engine they could devises back in 1967. Is that too much to ask for? Still, we have a ways to go before we can drive that 50,000 ton vehicle at 1 G continuously. I guess I will have to settle for flying to Mars in a month (0.02 G continuous acceleration -- 25 days). - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 15:00:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l04N02lJ032088; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 15:00:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l04Mxs1i032041; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:59:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:59:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104175336.03e3de90@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 17:59:42 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Cold fusion powered rockets In-Reply-To: <000e01c73051$eb820740$b690163f@DFBGQZ91> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> <000e01c73051$eb820740$b690163f@DFBGQZ91> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_29606500==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71884 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_29606500==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >If you can find some way to make the temperature high enough >(interesting, high temperature cold fusion....heh), and I mean >bloody high, that is, a pure fusion explosion, then we are all set. >Pure fusion Orion. I think the limit is about 1,000 deg C, given the melting points of Pd and Ti. But as I said with electricity and lasers and so on, you can throw away a lot of the heat and concentrate what is left to achieve much higher temperatures. >IIRC, one of the Orion proposals was to weigh a few thousand tons, >and with about 1100 bombs, could get anywhere in the solar system >within a couple months. Better than that. Freeman Dyson's "super Orion" was going to use 1,080 bombs of 3 tons each, with the mass of the ship being 8,000,000 tons. Now that's a spaceship! This is according to Wikipedia which I do not normally trust, but there are links to sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_%28nuclear_propulsion%29 - Jed --=====================_29606500==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

If you can find some way to make the temperature high enough (interesting, high temperature cold fusion....heh), and I mean bloody high, that is, a pure fusion explosion, then we are all set. Pure fusion Orion.

I think the limit is about 1,000 deg C, given the melting points of Pd and Ti. But as I said with electricity and lasers and so on, you can throw away a lot of the heat and concentrate what is left to achieve much higher temperatures.


IIRC, one of the Orion proposals was to weigh a few thousand tons, and with about 1100 bombs, could get anywhere in the solar system within a couple months.

Better than that. Freeman Dyson's "super Orion" was going to use 1,080 bombs of 3 tons each, with the mass of the ship being 8,000,000 tons. Now that's a spaceship! This is according to Wikipedia which I do not normally trust, but there are links to sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_%28nuclear_propulsion%29

- Jed
--=====================_29606500==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 16:08:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0508OfM015212; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 16:08:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0508Jvx015183; Thu, 4 Jan 2007 16:08:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 16:08:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c7305d$93c37320$b690163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com><000e01c73051$eb820740$b690163f@DFBGQZ91> <7.0.1.0.2.20070104175336.03e3de90@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Cold fusion powered rockets Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 19:08:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <29v_TD.A.LtD.zbZnFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71885 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Cold fusion powered rockets > Better than that. Freeman Dyson's "super Orion" was going to use 1,080 > bombs of 3 tons each, with the mass of the ship being 8,000,000 tons. Now > that's a > spaceship! This is according to Wikipedia which I do not normally trust, > but there are links to sources: ! ! ! Thats a rather large vehicle. The local library has George Dyson's book on the Orion. Haven't read it yet, but I will this weekend. If those 3 ton bombs can be made *clean*...then we have a fine solution to the heavy lifter problem. Unfortunately, if making said bombs is very easy, once you know how, and requires stuff that is not hard to get, then the crazies in the Middle East might take an interest. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 06:53:24 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l05ErBLF026523; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 06:53:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l05Er9Jn026507; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 06:53:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 06:53:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 14:52:27 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71886 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Diode Array for rockets 070105 Status: O X-Status: I'm excited by the prospect of having the diode array convert atmospheric heat and nuclear primary energy, and recovered heat from inefficient processes secondary heat into electrical power which powers particle accelerators for outstanding spaceflight performance. A particle accelerator can pump kinetic energy into a small amount of mass. The kinetic energy of the exhaust can exceed a speed of light equivalent because the accelerator can continue to apply energy into the exhaust even though the exhaust velocity approaches the speed of light. A near speed of light exhaust that gets heavier is easy to design for in an accelerator. Ion engine propelled rockets have poor performance because of the weight of conventional machinery that converts heat into electricity. Diode arrays are very light. Diode arrays are also easy to seal within the crash and radiation shielding of a nuclear engine though I don't recommend having radioisotopes in rockets. Robert A Heinlen wrote about how powered spaceflight within the solar system was much faster than coasting along transfer orbits. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 09:02:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l05H2ma1010176; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 09:02:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l05H2k1h010077; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 09:02:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 09:02:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=pIwTLEsCDk+94u4vOE/y6Jz/nW31JFyuYFDKDm7AODNzIOMNYVGWWYLJoh6xM2YBcknr1hwp5ZzbOabKzlXzYe4ZFNxvwjHsEgWoMNNTXidX6gJrZnHDrVCBQyOtukgAhAEiCm3vKIEmc6CHHFhJT0aSQEbhUvAmU3+1AGaRpIU= ; Message-ID: <20070105170244.33465.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 09:02:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1034729525-1168016564=:31832" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71887 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: ET grooves on Heavy Metal Status: RO X-Status: --0-1034729525-1168016564=:31832 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/new_jersey/counties/ca= mden_county/16386758.htm=0A=0A --0-1034729525-1168016564=:31832 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --0-1034729525-1168016564=:31832-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 09:42:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l05HgkO5029106; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 09:42:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l05HgjJ3029090; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 09:42:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 09:42:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=GB+bGGE3iiz/cCRx+rMOG2MGr9wsa220BCtRN3DkKrI6cHgkxPbPUroC8NZJ13/RCc3rxDm3ektwehIBGO0J0ng9Rq/Fnym4UZhhQMl17DoSAqLR1YzSjIr/4IvMcWeeNd3LWBcceAcU+Asf5z0y3adeb17ex/Mhjyp0ebw+EIg= ; X-YMail-OSG: GVvJahMVM1l1KFeJ.saJ6B1Da0Sb.BMnE2ebkYbKcYgcz_URV30yuq9XdK9t_GjJTsw54yRfPZN.D.tMXhBoxDxMEhB3v_Iebx0d.GfgnJO9.JP4gzTuqn8qB9hKNlCpbSG91V7I_w.qRbbPdSJAeFzbhmBqsvw3AKjMQyk1gwdoNUOFcJHDiOEifgSZ Message-ID: <459E8E08.9080802@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 09:42:32 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <20070105170244.33465.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20070105170244.33465.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <500kNC.A.VGH.U4onFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71888 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: ET grooves on Heavy Metal Status: RO X-Status: Inquiring minds want to know... Wish we, the curious of the vortexian-universe, had more detail from this story in order to ascertain what the metal in question is - which appears to be ferromagnetic, non-radioactive but denser than iron/nickel etc. If the object was really the exact size of a golf ball and made of iron, it should weigh-in at about 320 grams [a golf ball weighs about 40 grams and has a specific gravity of about one and iron has a specific gravity slightly less than 8 times greater. If a "can of soup" weighs 500 grams, then this metal object can't be iron. A Cobalt alloy might fit the bill closer... or iron/iridium. In either case, it would be such an oddity that it cold be extremely valuable to a collector... not to mention, if the owner turner out to be a preacher ... well, he might start a religion around it... Jones Addenda: According to this story the object weights 13 ounces: http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=31615&in_page_id=2 The thing has a metallic appearance, a rough surface, and at 13 ounces is noticeably heavier than would be expected for a metal object of its size. It does not emit significant amounts of radiation, and thus far has made no attempt to either contact, enslave, or destroy the human race. 13 ounces = ~370 grams So it is probably an iron alloy, perhaps with some iridium which extremely dense metal is fairly common in meteors - as Luis Alvarez is famous for recognizing. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 11:45:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l05JjXH3010739; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 11:45:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l05JjRVt010694; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 11:45:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 11:45:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 8hrTNUYVM1nSIpTw5Tq9H1K7QYG6.KcfM9o8FbhATIBkkRzrimyFq8J45NjED.t1N_NgpdWUT5CPZHgW_DH2jTB9.Uwl5xvSB7puP2U7HjZEbHxysc3VpOOj39PWjTCKWLJbC6aHNWaN.cVccp06siocOsQvDoF0wg6yDSg9c2MJ2JHlDdBReJ_Ty5Wk Message-ID: <459EAAD3.9080005@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 14:45:23 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: ET grooves on Heavy Metal References: <20070105170244.33465.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <459E8E08.9080802@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <459E8E08.9080802@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71889 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Inquiring minds want to know... > > Wish we, the curious of the vortexian-universe, had more detail from > this story in order to ascertain what the metal in question is - which > appears to be ferromagnetic, non-radioactive but denser than iron/nickel > etc. > > If the object was really the exact size of a golf ball and made of iron, > it should weigh-in at about 320 grams [a golf ball weighs about 40 grams > and has a specific gravity of about one and iron has a specific gravity > slightly less than 8 times greater. If a "can of soup" weighs 500 grams, > then this metal object can't be iron. A typical can of soup runs about 8 to 12 ounces, or somewhere in the ballpark of 300 grams. > A Cobalt alloy might fit the bill > closer... or iron/iridium. > > In either case, it would be such an oddity that it cold be extremely > valuable to a collector... not to mention, if the owner turner out to be > a preacher ... well, he might start a religion around it... Only if the view from the side looks like a profile of Jesus. > > Jones > > Addenda: According to this story the object weights 13 ounces: > > http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=31615&in_page_id=2 > > The thing has a metallic appearance, a rough surface, and at 13 ounces > is noticeably heavier than would be expected for a metal object of its > size. It does not emit significant amounts of radiation, and thus far > has made no attempt to either contact, enslave, or destroy the human race. > > 13 ounces = ~370 grams > > So it is probably an iron alloy, perhaps with some iridium which > extremely dense metal is fairly common in meteors - as Luis Alvarez is > famous for recognizing. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 12:05:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l05K5nhY031476; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:05:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l05K5lJg031452; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:05:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:05:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200701052005.l05K5ibD032847@mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 14:05:44 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: ET grooves on Heavy Metal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_96b370692ec863789f5130a3969ad8c0" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: <0wjbK.A.XrH.a-qnFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71890 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_96b370692ec863789f5130a3969ad8c0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Jones Beene > > Inquiring minds want to know... > ... I think the Martians said it best in the movie "Mars Attacks!" "Aaaaak, ak, ak, aaaak. Aaak ak ak aaaak ak, AAAAAAAK!" Pardon my Shakespeare. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com --=_96b370692ec863789f5130a3969ad8c0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From Jones Beene
>
> Inquiring minds want to know...
>

...

I think the Martians said it best in the movie "Mars Attacks!"

"Aaaaak, ak, ak, aaaak. Aaak ak ak aaaak ak, AAAAAAAK!"

Pardon my Shakespeare.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


--=_96b370692ec863789f5130a3969ad8c0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 12:19:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l05KJ9P0006288; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:19:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l05KJ7Jv006271; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:19:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:19:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydro Hub Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:19:05 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000e01c72eef$0a5088e0$5b037841@xptower> <001b01c72f48$306b5600$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <001b01c72f48$306b5600$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 5 Jan 2007 20:19:03 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l05KJ5vs006251 Resent-Message-ID: <6DMZpD.A.7hB.7KrnFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71891 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Wed, 3 Jan 2007 10:02:20 -0500: Hi, [snip] >A quick look at Hydro Hub suggests that the focus of the interest is >essentially reverse osmosis for purifying sea water. Already large scale >plants provide fresh water for the desert oil empires. Fresh water is going >to be a major issue in this century, as important in the Great Game as oil, >and it requires lots of energy to produce. China's 500 coal fired electric >plants can be new targets of environmental worrry instead of the US. winds >will ship the air pollution eastward but will not provide drinking water >which Hydro Hub might provide from seawater with electric power from >polluting coal. [snip] Reverse osmosis may superficially appear cheaper than distillation, but in fact it isn't if one uses one's brains. When coal is burned, 1/3 of the energy goes into producing electricity, and 2/3 goes up the chimney. Then part of that 1/3 is used for reverse osmosis. If the 2/3 were used for distillation instead, then the fresh water yield would be higher, the water would be purer, and you would still have all of the 1/3 available for other purposes. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 12:35:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l05KZbXU011483; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:35:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l05KZaF4011469; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:35:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:35:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070105153141.03dbd7b0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 15:35:28 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydro Hub In-Reply-To: References: <000e01c72eef$0a5088e0$5b037841@xptower> <001b01c72f48$306b5600$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71892 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Reverse osmosis may superficially appear cheaper than distillation, >but in fact >it isn't if one uses one's brains. When coal is burned, 1/3 of the energy goes >into producing electricity, and 2/3 goes up the chimney. Then part of that 1/3 >is used for reverse osmosis. Yes, but RO is more efficient. That is, it takes far less energy per gram of freshwater. Overall, it takes 4 to 30 times less than the best mult-stage flash (MSF) distillation process. See the refs in my book, chapter 8. MSF does produce purer water, as noted. The large-scale Saudi plants are all hybrids, that produce both electricity and water, very efficiently. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 12:52:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l05Ko3de021603; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:52:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l05KkYn8014801; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:46:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 12:46:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:46:32 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> <459D64E1.6020609@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070104154101.03de9518@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104154101.03de9518@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 5 Jan 2007 20:46:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l05KkVMD014777 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71893 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 04 Jan 2007 15:56:22 -0500: Hi, [snip] >None. But suppose only CF is made practical, and the temperature is >limited to, say, 1000 deg C. I suppose that would call for a two- or >three-stage approach, starting with heat to electricity. > Not necessarily. It is becoming evident that when CF actually occurs, alpha particles are the usual nuclear product. It may become possible to arrange for them to be ejected directly rather than undergoing any form of conversion at all. Multi-MeV alphas would yield a very interesting specific impulse, and also be far and away the most efficient way of utilizing the fuel. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 13:14:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l05LEgWN026773; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 13:14:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l05LEZqe026677; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 13:14:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 13:14:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 08:14:32 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> <459D74A6.3060309@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <459D74A6.3060309@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:14:32 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l05LEWf4026584 Resent-Message-ID: <92NPg.A.ngG.7-rnFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71894 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Thu, 04 Jan 2007 16:41:58 -0500: Hi, [snip] > 11,000 = 3,000 * log(M_i/M_f) > > log(M_i/M_f) = 3.7 > > M_i/M_f = exp(3.7) = 39 Using 10 MeV alpha particles as your exhaust yields M_i/M_f = 1.0005011 (However you may have some difficulty convincing them all to go in the same direction). IOW 99.95 % of your mass can be vessel + payload (Assuming you have no fuel left upon attaining escape velocity). Of course, if you are satisfied with only 99.9 %, then you can come home too. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 14:48:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l05MmSTk022176; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 14:48:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l05MmQZD022158; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 14:48:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 14:48:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydro Hub Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 09:48:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000e01c72eef$0a5088e0$5b037841@xptower> <001b01c72f48$306b5600$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070105153141.03dbd7b0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070105153141.03dbd7b0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 5 Jan 2007 22:48:22 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l05MmNYg022131 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71895 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 05 Jan 2007 15:35:28 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>Reverse osmosis may superficially appear cheaper than distillation, >>but in fact >>it isn't if one uses one's brains. When coal is burned, 1/3 of the energy goes >>into producing electricity, and 2/3 goes up the chimney. Then part of that 1/3 >>is used for reverse osmosis. > >Yes, but RO is more efficient. That is, it takes far less energy per >gram of freshwater. Overall, it takes 4 to 30 times less than the >best mult-stage flash (MSF) distillation process. My point is that using the waste heat is always going to be more efficient overall than using valuable electricity, even if the process itself is less efficient. You need to look at the big picture, and not stare yourself blind on a detail. >See the refs in my >book, chapter 8. MSF does produce purer water, as noted. > >The large-scale Saudi plants are all hybrids, that produce both >electricity and water, very efficiently. This is exactly what I mean. See http://www.water-technology.net/projects/shuaiba/ . Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 17:28:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l061S8SR020872; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 17:28:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l061S5ji020832; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 17:28:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 17:28:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=HL6NMOruPoxS76uMAZ5623i5gUBS9zG6jUV3IfcQ5YS+E1qdHHdW5Wlg/c92Jkvm; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <183872.1168046883662.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 20:28:03 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydro Hub Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c30e9f7ec689f4c2d2743181f0691fcbe8986bd7788dc07de350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.29 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71896 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >>Yes, but RO is more efficient. That is, it takes far less energy per >>gram of freshwater. Overall, it takes 4 to 30 times less than the >>best mult-stage flash (MSF) distillation process. > >My point is that using the waste heat is always going to be more efficient >overall than using valuable electricity, even if the process itself is less >efficient. That is not true. If the RO process is 40 times more efficient than MSF (as it was in some situations, in some locations), then even though 60% of the heat used to generate the electricity is wasted, the overall efficiency is still far ahead of MSF. This is similar to the use of heat pumps instead of gas fired furnaces for space heating. > You need to look at the big picture, and not stare yourself blind on >a detail. It is not a detail. 40 X 30% = 12 times more efficient than MSF -- and I think the factor of 40 was actually based on overall fuel consumption. I believe that is with brackish water, in California. >>The large-scale Saudi plants are all hybrids, that produce both >>electricity and water, very efficiently. > >This is exactly what I mean. See >http://www.water-technology.net/projects/shuaiba/ . Yes. There have been recent improvements with MSF, as described here, especially with hybrid generator models. On cruise ships, all of the water is desalinated ocean water, from the engine cooling system. It is a freebee: they get enough cooling down the diesel-electric engines to supply all those swimming pools, tubs and showers for thousands of people. The early oceangoing steamships used to run short of freshwater for the boiler, until someone figured out they were sitting in a gigantic pool of cooling water which could be used to condense the steam. Marine engines have always been notably efficient, to conserve fuel, but they never had to worry about cooling. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 21:47:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l065l5UZ013437; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:47:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l065l3QC013420; Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:47:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:47:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydro Hub Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 16:46:59 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <183872.1168046883662.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <183872.1168046883662.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 6 Jan 2007 05:46:59 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l065l0HU013399 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71897 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 5 Jan 2007 20:28:03 -0500 (GMT-05:00): Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>>Yes, but RO is more efficient. That is, it takes far less energy per >>>gram of freshwater. Overall, it takes 4 to 30 times less than the >>>best mult-stage flash (MSF) distillation process. >> >>My point is that using the waste heat is always going to be more efficient >>overall than using valuable electricity, even if the process itself is less >>efficient. > >That is not true. If the RO process is 40 times more efficient than MSF (as it was in some situations, in some locations), then even though 60% of the heat used to generate the electricity is wasted, the overall efficiency is still far ahead of MSF. This is similar to the use of heat pumps instead of gas fired furnaces for space heating. No it isn't. The energy cost for MSF can be essentially zero, when attached to a thermal power plant, because that heat is normally thrown away anyway. > > >> You need to look at the big picture, and not stare yourself blind on >>a detail. > >It is not a detail. 40 X 30% = 12 times more efficient than MSF -- and I think the factor of 40 was actually based on overall fuel consumption. I believe that is with brackish water, in California. Yes, you may get up to 12 times more water for the same amount of fuel, but you are neglecting the fact that in thermal power plants the fuel is normally burnt anyway, and NO water is produced. If the electric output from the plant is used to produce water, using RO, then another plant has to be built to provide electricity for the usual customers. When MSF is combined with the thermal plant, no additional plant need be built, and the water (though less than from RO), is an added bonus. IOW with MSF, you water *in addition* to power, whereas with RO you get water *instead of* power. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 00:19:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l068J89o021132; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 00:19:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l068J7HZ021118; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 00:19:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 00:19:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=LiywjorzMVnFgIqYICRMXBD/UMAo5hCW/ovluOi8zKOL8jF6KnWbT6DtLSZxDBXq; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <19936848.1168071545003.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 00:19:04 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8088b5f647603cd7622c61fec0f838fffa8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.37 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71898 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 5, 2007 Status: RO X-Status: HAPPY NEW YEAR! -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Jan 5, 2007 1:42 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 5, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 5 Jan 07 Washington, DC 1. THE JUNKMAN: EXXON USES MILLOY TO DOWNPLAY GLOBAL WARMING. The Union of Concerned Scientists released a report on Wednesday describing Exxon Mobil's efforts to manipulate public opinion on Global Warming. In doing so the report further exposes the role of Steven J. Milloy, the notorious "Junkman" who wrote Junk Science Judo (CATO, 2001), and a column for Fox News. WN reported a year ago that Milloy, who masquerades as a fearless debunker of bad science, in real life works for oil and tobacco giants http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN06/wn020306.html . 2. AGE: DOES THE PARK SERVICE KNOW HOW OLD THE GRAND CANYON IS? Somewhere between six thousand and six million years is as close as they can come. The six million year figure comes from adding up the ages of the geologic strata exposed on the canyon walls. You get six thousand years by adding up the "begats" in the Old Testament until you get back to Noah. So which is it? Three years ago, bookstores in Grand Canyon National Park began selling "Grand Canyon: A Different View," approved by the Park Service. The book explains that runoff from Noah's flood carved the canyon http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN04/wn010204.html . A promised review of whether the book should be sold in the Park stalled "over issues of church and state." Whoa! Geology is not church or state, it's science. Mary Bomar, Director of the National Park Service since October, should be called on to keep this silly religious tract out of National Park bookstores. 3. VALUES: SO WHAT DOES THE CONSTITUTION SAY ABOUT TAKING OATHS? The new Congress began on a note of monumental unimportance: the first Muslim elected to Congress, Keith Ellison, took the oath of office on the Koran (or is it Quran). The person who acquitted himself professionally was the rare-books librarian at the Library of Congress, Mark Dimunation, who came up with Thomas Jefferson's personal copy of the Koran for Ellison to use. Rep. Goode (R-VA) objected that an oath on the Koran would violate "traditional American values." The Constitution requires an "oath or affirmation" from the President, but two presidents, Hoover and Pierce, chose to affirm rather than swear. "Swear not at all," Jesus said. "Yes should mean yes, no should mean no." 4. TERRORISM 2007: PAT ROBERTSON HAS BEEN TALKING TO GOD AGAIN. During a recent prayer retreat, God told him that a terrorist attack on the U.S. late in 2007 will result in a "mass killing". Robertson relayed God's message to "The 700 Club" on Tuesday. "The Lord didn't say nuclear, but I do believe it will be something like that." "I have a relatively good track record," he said. "Sometimes I miss." It's not clear whether God mumbles, or Robertson takes poor notes, but maybe in the future he could take along a recorder. He once asked God to unleash hurricanes on sinful Florida, but if sin leads to hurricanes, Florida has been sinful since they began keeping weather records. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 01:28:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l069SOxt022238; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 01:28:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l069SM81022220; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 01:28:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 01:28:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00f901c73174$e9f0fac0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> <459D64E1.6020609@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070104154101.03de9518@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 10:27:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l069SKuU022200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71899 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Aren't photon rockets supposed to be the most efficient of all? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets > In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 04 Jan 2007 15:56:22 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >>None. But suppose only CF is made practical, and the temperature is >>limited to, say, 1000 deg C. I suppose that would call for a two- or >>three-stage approach, starting with heat to electricity. >> > Not necessarily. It is becoming evident that when CF actually occurs, alpha > particles are the usual nuclear product. It may become possible to arrange for > them to be ejected directly rather than undergoing any form of conversion at > all. Multi-MeV alphas would yield a very interesting specific impulse, and also > be far and away the most efficient way of utilizing the fuel. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 01:52:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l069qgSd030640; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 01:52:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l069l2xK029278; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 01:47:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 01:47:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=s4qYxO4PSBXGZM8ehXPA9p63/nIXaB+18Gv72w5DJvVMpydLb0cRvv6twpGfpks9; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200716694650322@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 02:46:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9401b6d0af3885a58a2ec6bbe9888e3b06b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.100 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71900 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Solar-Thermal vs Photovoltaic Collectors Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A solar-thermal collector using a heat engine for power generation offers many advantages over photovoltaic collectors. They can be built "from the ground up" by the "do-it-yourselfer" using precast concrete storage tanks (such as precast septic tanks) for water-heat storage allowing use of "heat depleted" water for comfort heating and act as a support for the solar collector. Styrofoam (polystyrene) blocks or boards can be used for insulation, and forms for monolithic pour concrete, where the Styrofoam forms can be dissolved out of a poured tank using acetone or gasoline etc. Dirt can be used for added support against wind, and protection of the foam insulation. Bubble-Wrap used for "thermopane" over blackened metal roofing sheets can achieve temperatures of 140 F (600 Rankine) or more. Low power water-circulating pumps and PVC plumbing allows long lasting system reliability. Even with a 2% overall power generation efficiency the cost per Kilowatt-hour is attractive even with ready-mix concrete costing $100.00 per cubic yard. delivered. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
A solar-thermal collector using a heat engine for power generation
offers many advantages over photovoltaic collectors.
They can be built "from the ground up" by the "do-it-yourselfer"
using precast concrete storage tanks (such as precast septic tanks)
for water-heat storage allowing use of "heat depleted" water for comfort heating
and act as a support for the solar collector.
Styrofoam (polystyrene) blocks or boards can be used for insulation,
and forms for monolithic pour concrete, where the Styrofoam forms can be
dissolved out of a poured tank using acetone or gasoline etc.
Dirt can be used for added support against wind,
and protection of the foam insulation.
Bubble-Wrap used for "thermopane" over blackened metal
roofing sheets can achieve temperatures of 140 F (600 Rankine)
or more.
Low power water-circulating pumps and PVC plumbing allows
long lasting system reliability.
Even with a 2% overall power generation efficiency the cost per
Kilowatt-hour is attractive even with ready-mix concrete costing
$100.00 per cubic yard. delivered.
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 02:55:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l06AtgXu027745; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 02:55:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l06AteCm027732; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 02:55:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 02:55:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Qs5ksfwKsqzyqp1MyGXsolRnfW5UNGGcySFApkGEEvazUWS4YXHZvhjYEEdd6TSx; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200716610552622@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 03:55:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940fefef673aee43f899d2e4a3ac0847169350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.71 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71901 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: [Vo]: Re: Solar-Thermal vs Photovoltaic Collectors Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) concrete forms: In the mid 1970s I debugged boiler problems in a factory that made the Styrofoam "logs" that were ~4 ft wide by about a foot thick and 16 ft long that weighed about 65 pounds. Easy to set on end to cure before hot-wire cutting into panels, planks, or blocks etc. http://www.benchmarkfoam.com/benchmark/poly/default.asp http://www.benchmarkfoam.com/benchmark/products/cforming.asp Bubble- Wrap runs about $0.07 per square foot in rolls up to 4 feet wide by 250 feet long. http://www.packagingprice.com/forms/product_listing.cfm?CategoryID=10108&CFID=421578&CFTOKEN=76025033 Fred A solar-thermal collector using a heat engine for power generation offers many advantages over photovoltaic collectors. They can be built "from the ground up" by the "do-it-yourselfer" using precast concrete storage tanks (such as precast septic tanks) for water-heat storage allowing use of "heat depleted" water for comfort heating and act as a support for the solar collector. Styrofoam (polystyrene) blocks or boards can be used for insulation, and forms for monolithic pour concrete, where the Styrofoam forms can be dissolved out of a poured tank using acetone or gasoline etc. Dirt can be used for added support against wind, and protection of the foam insulation. Bubble-Wrap used for "thermopane" over blackened metal roofing sheets can achieve temperatures of 140 F (600 Rankine) or more. Low power water-circulating pumps and PVC plumbing allows long lasting system reliability. Even with a 2% overall power generation efficiency the cost per Kilowatt-hour is attractive even with ready-mix concrete costing $100.00 per cubic yard. delivered. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) concrete forms:
 
In the mid 1970s I debugged boiler problems in a factory
that made the Styrofoam "logs" that were ~4 ft wide by about a foot
thick and 16 ft long that weighed about 65 pounds. Easy to set on end
to cure before hot-wire cutting into panels, planks, or blocks etc.
 
 
 
Bubble- Wrap runs about $0.07 per square foot in rolls up to
4 feet wide by 250 feet long.
 
Fred
A solar-thermal collector using a heat engine for power generation
offers many advantages over photovoltaic collectors.
They can be built "from the ground up" by the "do-it-yourselfer"
using precast concrete storage tanks (such as precast septic tanks)
for water-heat storage allowing use of "heat depleted" water for comfort heating
and act as a support for the solar collector.
Styrofoam (polystyrene) blocks or boards can be used for insulation,
and forms for monolithic pour concrete, where the Styrofoam forms can be
dissolved out of a poured tank using acetone or gasoline etc.
Dirt can be used for added support against wind,
and protection of the foam insulation.
Bubble-Wrap used for "thermopane" over blackened metal
roofing sheets can achieve temperatures of 140 F (600 Rankine)
or more.
Low power water-circulating pumps and PVC plumbing allows
long lasting system reliability.
Even with a 2% overall power generation efficiency the cost per
Kilowatt-hour is attractive even with ready-mix concrete costing
$100.00 per cubic yard. delivered.
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 05:36:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l06Da8UR008915; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 05:36:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l06Da6FY008901; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 05:36:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 05:36:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001c01c73197$91280410$21027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: [VO]:Re: Hydro Hub Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 07:35:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C73165.45E10060" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71902 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C73165.45E10060 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0019_01C73165.45E10060" ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C73165.45E10060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankInteresting comparison between R-O and MSF Triple flash = distillation methods of desal. Thankfully, we have both processes. Each = process has it's benefits and advantages. Our tiny manufacturing company struggles with research in methods of = reducing the mineral content of brackish and seawater prior to entering = the pre-filters of the R-O membrane trains. One of the functions of a = water vortex is it's ability to create a vacuum when the spin is induced = by mechanical means. We have closely studied the MSF processes and the = comparative efficencies vs R-O, in particular , the temperature = differentials between the flash stages. One of our test setups include a = two stage Lazell Flow Nozzle ( expander rather than a throat venturi = effect). The purpose is to determine if we can get the flash without the = added cost of heating. Hmmm.. a sort of a hybrid MSF- RO.. (sounds like the lyrics to RAP = music. ) Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C73165.45E10060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Interesting comparison between R-O and MSF Triple flash = distillation=20 methods of desal. Thankfully, we have both processes. Each process has = it's=20 benefits and advantages.
 
 Our tiny manufacturing company struggles with research in = methods of=20 reducing the mineral content of brackish and seawater prior to entering = the=20 pre-filters of the R-O membrane trains. One of the functions of a water = vortex=20 is it's ability to create a vacuum when the spin is induced by = mechanical means.=20 We have closely studied the MSF processes and the comparative = efficencies vs=20 R-O, in particular , the temperature differentials between the flash = stages. One=20 of our test setups include a two stage Lazell Flow Nozzle ( expander = rather than=20 a throat venturi effect). The purpose is to determine if we can get the = flash=20 without the added cost of heating.
Hmmm.. a sort of a hybrid MSF- RO.. (sounds like the lyrics to RAP = music.=20 <grin>)
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0019_01C73165.45E10060-- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C73165.45E10060 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001701c73197$907248a0$21027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C73165.45E10060-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 06:54:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l06EsOYl005170; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 06:54:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l06EsM3i005152; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 06:54:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 06:54:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: UcfLVhsVM1lw7w4_dRCjjPOHhwszzZ_.vqh_JzOJ81Vm3I7EtLqaeEA7NZst_MunvKqCZ1FsEH4WvEm6Zv52j..LPEstZ6azVbjQsa1ZGpXS.BLzXWMw8f2b58fkaw4JLW0djxyr3ebls2c- Message-ID: <459FB81A.10508@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 09:54:18 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> <459D64E1.6020609@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070104154101.03de9518@mindspring.com> <00f901c73174$e9f0fac0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <00f901c73174$e9f0fac0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71903 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Aren't photon rockets supposed to be the most efficient of all? Right. From the point of view of someone on the rocket, for ordinary fuel, when a piece of fuel of mass dm is ejected, the momentum gained is dP = v_e dm so dP/dm = v_e For a photon rocket, if we use "v" for "nu" = frequency and "l" for "lambda" = wavelength, then the momentum and energy of one photon is dP = h/l dE = h v and the mass-equivalent of the energy of that photon (which is the mass the ship actually "loses" when the photon shoots out the exhaust) is dm = dE/c^2 = hv/c^2 So for a photon rocket, dP/dm = c^2 dP/dE = c and, of course, for ordinary fuel v_e < c so the photon rocket's always more efficient, in terms of the amount of momentum gained for a given amount of reaction mass consumed. But that doesn't take account of the amount of waste heat you generate making the photons, nor does it take account of the fixed mass of the equipment you need to carry to make the photons. Chemical rockets are a lot simpler than high powered lasers. And speaking of lasers, you don't want to stand in back of a high-thrust photon rocket -- not even far, far in back of it! Its "exhaust" is likely to be a multi-gigawatt laser. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 9:46 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets > > >> In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 04 Jan 2007 15:56:22 -0500: >> Hi, >> [snip] >>> None. But suppose only CF is made practical, and the temperature is >>> limited to, say, 1000 deg C. I suppose that would call for a two- or >>> three-stage approach, starting with heat to electricity. >>> >> Not necessarily. It is becoming evident that when CF actually occurs, alpha >> particles are the usual nuclear product. It may become possible to arrange for >> them to be ejected directly rather than undergoing any form of conversion at >> all. Multi-MeV alphas would yield a very interesting specific impulse, and also >> be far and away the most efficient way of utilizing the fuel. >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> >> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> >> Competition provides the motivation, >> Cooperation provides the means. >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 08:05:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l06G5GYv010514; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 08:05:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l06G5EWR010499; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 08:05:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 08:05:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=oU4suQDFZMU3USRMMekyXp/W5QpIIh7wHei9orViIk4K2n9bph3iadtwdyLWXR6Eidxj4NnOzGEezT/cUALGIZmEMm7lpJikgdodiMWeDB4aE0J/GOANar9H8KBdeZ2zyI8XJL5JTSPcpcGfMP1oVuI0GfZPQrNyUHdptOM9SsA= ; X-YMail-OSG: X7b2mC0VM1n9kGIxUnB1.tuxTRbVgyoOHRhAQVqGYwVw9rpQarbeMMtwqoOjsAT5vfhBPigcFkikN4dxS6Y4oV9qzPwnuv89f2oUgjEXWqEvEDSb7tv9YeoDiELDkeIshzIGk7qp_fXo2v8- Message-ID: <459FC8B5.4080202@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 08:05:09 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <001c01c73197$91280410$21027841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001c01c73197$91280410$21027841@xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71904 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Hydro Hub Status: O X-Status: Add this thought into the mix... It is much more energy efficient to "atomize" (so-called) water into a mist or fog than it is to perform any form of true distillation. The advantage is perhaps in the range of orders of magnitude -say 100-1 (guess). Problem is - this does not imply that you get rid of any minerals since the atomized water mist will have the original mineral content entrained in the small droplets. However ---- and this more of a query - is there any lower size range which is available for very small droplet size - which will expel some of the mineral content when used in a situation where other forces are applied? Thinking in particular about spraying an extremely fine mist through a crossed magnetic or magnetic-electic field such that an MHD effect will concentrate minerals in one vector and allow partially purified water to exit in another.... RC Macaulay wrote: > Interesting comparison between R-O and MSF Triple flash distillation > methods of desal. Thankfully, we have both processes. Each process has > it's benefits and advantages. > > Our tiny manufacturing company struggles with research in methods of > reducing the mineral content of brackish and seawater prior to > entering the pre-filters of the R-O membrane trains. One of the > functions of a water vortex is it's ability to create a vacuum when > the spin is induced by mechanical means. We have closely studied the > MSF processes and the comparative efficencies vs R-O, in particular , > the temperature differentials between the flash stages. One of our > test setups include a two stage Lazell Flow Nozzle ( expander rather > than a throat venturi effect). The purpose is to determine if we can > get the flash without the added cost of heating. > Hmmm.. a sort of a hybrid MSF- RO.. (sounds like the lyrics to RAP > music. ) > > Richard > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 08:24:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l06GOBUS020653; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 08:24:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l06GO9Jp020633; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 08:24:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 08:24:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <013f01c731af$15bbb750$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> <459D64E1.6020609@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070104154101.03de9518@mindspring.com> <00f901c73174$e9f0fac0$3800a8c0@zothan> <459FB81A.10508@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:24:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l06GO7hT020612 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71905 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for confirming Stephen, your maths look ok to me; What you call "waste" heat can be turned into useful backwards radiation with a proper reflector can't it? I even wonder if a thermonuclear engine producing just heat could not be turned into an efficient photon drive. P.S. It seems it could, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_photonic_rocket Regarding long-range deadliness of the light beam I imagine it can be avoided by making it sufficiently uncollimated while keeping cos phi losses at an acceptable level. Besides I don't think the problem is photon-specific, any high-energy beam will be dangerous. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets > > > Michel Jullian wrote: >> Aren't photon rockets supposed to be the most efficient of all? > > Right. From the point of view of someone on the rocket, for ordinary > fuel, when a piece of fuel of mass dm is ejected, the momentum gained is > > dP = v_e dm > > so > > dP/dm = v_e > > For a photon rocket, if we use "v" for "nu" = frequency and "l" for > "lambda" = wavelength, then the momentum and energy of one photon is > > dP = h/l > > dE = h v > > and the mass-equivalent of the energy of that photon (which is the mass > the ship actually "loses" when the photon shoots out the exhaust) is > > dm = dE/c^2 = hv/c^2 > > So for a photon rocket, > > dP/dm = c^2 dP/dE = c > > and, of course, for ordinary fuel v_e < c so the photon rocket's always > more efficient, in terms of the amount of momentum gained for a given > amount of reaction mass consumed. > > But that doesn't take account of the amount of waste heat you generate > making the photons, nor does it take account of the fixed mass of the > equipment you need to carry to make the photons. Chemical rockets are a > lot simpler than high powered lasers. > > And speaking of lasers, you don't want to stand in back of a high-thrust > photon rocket -- not even far, far in back of it! Its "exhaust" is > likely to be a multi-gigawatt laser. > > >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 9:46 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets >> >> >>> In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 04 Jan 2007 15:56:22 -0500: >>> Hi, >>> [snip] >>>> None. But suppose only CF is made practical, and the temperature is >>>> limited to, say, 1000 deg C. I suppose that would call for a two- or >>>> three-stage approach, starting with heat to electricity. >>>> >>> Not necessarily. It is becoming evident that when CF actually occurs, alpha >>> particles are the usual nuclear product. It may become possible to arrange for >>> them to be ejected directly rather than undergoing any form of conversion at >>> all. Multi-MeV alphas would yield a very interesting specific impulse, and also >>> be far and away the most efficient way of utilizing the fuel. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Robin van Spaandonk >>> >>> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >>> >>> Competition provides the motivation, >>> Cooperation provides the means. >>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 08:28:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l06GSPXC022085; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 08:28:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l06GSNqX022070; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 08:28:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 08:28:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=nzl6SoOoUUxQSIoOGymqFpB0/j9SlRRD9SN78mdGO7835sS9kskLeGS2F8qMHmos; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <4457246.1168100902905.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:28:22 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydro Hub Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191cd856b1abdd92d21ebb3151c2d3fc76c401a80d0bbd82525c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.24 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71906 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk writes: >>That is not true. If the RO process is 40 times more efficient than MSF (as it was in some situations, in some locations), then even though 60% of the heat used to generate the electricity is wasted, the overall efficiency is still far ahead of MSF. This is similar to the use of heat pumps instead of gas fired furnaces for space heating. > >No it isn't. The energy cost for MSF can be essentially zero, when attached to a >thermal power plant, because that heat is normally thrown away anyway. Ah, I see your point. However, RO might be a good choice in areas served by wind power or nuclear power, especially at night. I believe there was a nuclear powered MSF/electric plant, or maybe only proposals for one (I do not recall). See: http://www.iaea.org/OurWork/ST/NE/NENP/NPTDS/Projects/nd/index.html - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 08:45:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l06GjD7g025436; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 08:45:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l06GjBGd025423; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 08:45:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 08:45:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=py0cZGgU05ZqjGvwKxUdSuhd5PcGpJSPEBqGWgXQdzEcDrfj1Er1An4baI4H4aoj; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007166164458656@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 09:44:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940e0b00574012a40954528cb991d0f8729350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.126 Resent-Message-ID: <2DrdjC.A.HNG.XI9nFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71907 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Tilt-Slab Solar Collector Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A 4 inch thick concrete slab poured flat on the ground with embedded steel pipe doubling as reinforcing and water ducts, weighing about 50 pounds per square foot can be tilted up using hydraulic jacks. An easy task to install "glazing" adaptors in it before pouring. Styrofoam insulation panels attached to the back will allow its mass to provide added thermal storage. Hinging it at the bottom for tilt optimization using hydraulic cylinders is optional. Not much chance a 120 mph breeze will blow it away, especially if a portion of the bottom is buried in the ground, with an insulated 5,000 gallon concrete water storage tank behind it. My concrete contractor is charging me $3.75 per square foot (labor & materials) for 450 square ft (42 square meters) of sidewalk and an entryway pad. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
A 4 inch thick concrete slab poured flat on the ground
with embedded steel pipe doubling as reinforcing and
water ducts, weighing about 50 pounds per square foot
can be tilted up using hydraulic jacks.
An easy task to install "glazing" adaptors in it before pouring.
Styrofoam insulation panels attached to the back will
allow its mass to provide added thermal storage.
Hinging it at the bottom for tilt optimization using
hydraulic cylinders is optional.
Not much chance a 120 mph breeze will
blow it away, especially if a portion of the bottom is
buried in the ground, with an insulated 5,000 gallon 
concrete water storage tank behind it.
My concrete contractor is charging me $3.75 per
square foot (labor & materials) for 450 square ft (42 square meters)
of sidewalk and an entryway pad.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 09:26:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l06HQGuF013627; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 09:26:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l06HQEZN013589; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 09:26:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 09:26:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=5sLTZ7iTqdTEVtVWljuFChHesc9GghZHk/qXbVJFMzhhhB3RAbeZ9BBYnDYmlCLjQDVI3BDRqS96rIf68yqzeg7FIGwVb/AQYD6D3BZnv1oYA7xghF2vK0qJneLyNOB8+RNE8PYM02S6q7sT5ewTmU//GNi2Gt5N+Xn5QtlHX/8= ; X-YMail-OSG: UNNtdC0VM1mMg_2grsTyqBwVfUTU5LSvOvqT3Zta_Wv9JQPVlpNHoL6rhsyTKoaCgjJ80kXryaTqyUo78855o_zKJfNl5r7NyEZrL0kRzJPnxfW1tiWQ70rTOOZ9EvPYc3IQAmf50AUgqUo- Message-ID: <459FDBB0.1030208@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 09:26:08 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71908 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: For Jed's CF-powered Mars Mission Status: O X-Status: Needs Zero propellant, like a putative photon (laser) drive, but presumably (if we can believe anyone who lives next to Disneyland) with a bit more specific impulse (a few quadrillion times more) United States Patent 6,347,766 Woodward , et al. February 19, 2002 ---------------------------------------------- Method and apparatus for generating propulsive forces without the ejection of propellant Abstract Mach's principle and local Lorentz-invariance together yield the prediction of transient rest mass fluctuations in accelerated objects. These restmass fluctuations, in both principle and practice, can be quite large and, in principle at least, negative. They suggest that exotic space time transport devices may be feasible, the least exotic being "impulse engines", devices that can produce accelerations without ejecting any material exhaust. Such "impulse engines" rely on inducing transient mass fluctuations in conventional electrical circuit components and combining them with a mechanically coupled pulsed thrust to produce propulsive forces without the ejection of any propellant. The invention comprises a method of producing propellant-less thrust by using force transducers (piezoelectric devices or their magnetic equivalents) attached to resonant mechanical structures. The force transducers are driven by two (or more) phase-locked voltage waveforms so that the transient mass fluctuation and mechanical excursion needed to produce a stationary thrust are both produced in the transducer itself. ---------------------------------------------------------- Inventors: Woodward; James (Anaheim, CA), Mahood; Thomas (Irvine, CA) Appl. No.: 09/549,475 Filed: April 14, 2000 ---------------------------------------------------------- Current U.S. Class: 244/62 ; 244/158.1; 244/171.5 Current International Class: B64G 1/22 (20060101); B64G 1/40 (20060101); H04R 23/00 (20060101) Field of Search: 244/62,172,158R,53R 60/203.1 Other References Woodward, "A New Experimental approach to Mach's principle and relativistic graviation" Foundations of physics letters, vol. 3, No. 5 1990.. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 10:36:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l06IZvC2005088; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 10:35:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l06IZtjW005067; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 10:35:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 10:35:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 13:34:25 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: For Jed's CF-powered Mars Mission In-reply-to: <459FDBB0.1030208@pacbell.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71909 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A stone falling to the ground accelerates without a propellant. Harry Jones Beene wrote: > Needs Zero propellant, like a putative photon (laser) drive, but > presumably (if we can believe anyone who lives next to Disneyland) with > a bit more specific impulse (a few quadrillion times more) > > > United States Patent 6,347,766 Woodward , et al. February 19, 2002 > > ---------------------------------------------- > Method and apparatus for generating propulsive forces without the > ejection of propellant > > Abstract > Mach's principle and local Lorentz-invariance together yield the > prediction of transient rest mass fluctuations in accelerated objects. > These restmass fluctuations, in both principle and practice, can be > quite large and, in principle at least, negative. They suggest that > exotic space time transport devices may be feasible, the least exotic > being "impulse engines", devices that can produce accelerations without > ejecting any material exhaust. Such "impulse engines" rely on inducing > transient mass fluctuations in conventional electrical circuit > components and combining them with a mechanically coupled pulsed thrust > to produce propulsive forces without the ejection of any propellant. The > invention comprises a method of producing propellant-less thrust by > using force transducers (piezoelectric devices or their magnetic > equivalents) attached to resonant mechanical structures. The force > transducers are driven by two (or more) phase-locked voltage waveforms > so that the transient mass fluctuation and mechanical excursion needed > to produce a stationary thrust are both produced in the transducer itself. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 11:36:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l06JZwbr005382; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:35:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l06JZusX005373; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:35:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:35:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=JgyEmZk1ecAEo9XQfpSl9Zm5dtFRx++Uj3Ewd0FCLlQCP1ZmuBGMpaNtmflXQDExDYhNhpJKh03IClUHulDBC3mSQjF5utFBJgr+wJZbmDjS8dGTV+8BzvEf+UtwDKr2dUHAjDvW5Iv+U5mQ6Pvx0zOYLEpogfn2pY9ts1Nrgfw= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 14:35:55 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71910 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Evaporating Dirac's Sea Status: O X-Status: Assuming you can get positive energy from a permanent magnet, could the aligned spins of electrons be shifting the spin phase of PAMD's epos? Could the field's effect on the leading edge of Planck time's increment cause an orthogonal diversion of the positron? While dragging it's mated electron with it, is the negative energy of the epo converted to positive energy? We think of negative energy to be a "lower" energy state; but, suppose it's simply a path the oscillating epos take. A slight rotation of the spin might change the sign of the energy state converting negative energy into positive energy. Do PM ou devices evaporate Dirac's sea? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 13:04:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l06L4C3c015034; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 13:04:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l06L4BZb015021; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 13:04:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 13:04:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=yFO383uEC9WWcrsKbb6BeklybGVkcZgFJjc1tBIVbwqIUb1ipwRTI9O3qOEBW8OTj+oeLkAFYci3AkllM4QON8psGDlx6cbfvxPmsaMYBcIayH2g2y1OX6C7K44Z/s88ecAMa3ntIw9jANShJ+t8qTJwhlvgXlQFhDqS5EMldHk= ; X-YMail-OSG: v52u9k8VM1k4WJkTjr3R3iDXEE8xLQ6FBsI6oCS6dowf.xyTQTalyecywayDYINVE5HLEbYHDktqev7.Zolsg1ANzQMBKtqfqDhpIz34wS4DV.AiDjaIPjwMdJ9NGERkH.CiX8WvqnoVYZw- Message-ID: <45A00EC5.1080507@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 13:04:05 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <90VIPC.A.lqD.K7AoFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71911 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Evaporating Dirac's Sea Status: O X-Status: > Do PM ou devices evaporate Dirac's sea? > > Terry > > Like it ! ... except for the choice of the word "evaporate" as it can imply that the epo somehow disappears. Another slightly misleading connotation comes from the use of "negative energy" because the "negative" part most likely refers to a spatial constraint (reciprocal space) rather than a "real" energy deficit (i.e. being in another dimension, or at least on the interface and therefor virtual as opposed to real). Positive energy in reciprocal-space looks to us like it could be negative energy. But in both cases, there probably are few better short descriptors to use, so why quibble. If my slant on this is correct, "evaporate" could be changed to "renormalize". Which has its own problems, and that only means any short verbalization is going to be misleading in some way. Let me add a couple of other thoughts to this putative situation - i.e the possibility of achieving OU by cohering positive energy in real space from the "wave action" of the epo field, which is ebbing and flooding on the interface of our 3-space and Dirac's "reciprocal space" (which can be a 4th spatial dimension, or else just a mathematical abstraction). How does one raise-a-sail in your reciprocal space, PAM? Is the answer blowing in the wind? Here are some winch-handles for leverage: 1) The laws of thermodynamics in our 3-space will likely hold, so there should be a cooling of the OU device which is commensurate with electrical power or torque which is extracted from "free" rotation or motion - and that cooling may be a limiting factor in how much energy can be extracted. This may be the best way of detecting that some progress is being made in experiments, however. 2) The so-called "neutrino" (at least one of the varieties) may be involved in this process. IOW there is a neutrino variety (I hesitate to broaden this hypothesis too much, so as to avoid encompassing the electron-antineutrino which could be a different beast) ... and which variety can be best described as NOT a particle at all but a "disrupted travelling wave" in the epo field. 3) The neutrino started out as a kludge and total "fiction" - an invented particle which was used to balance the books of nuclear energy events, where lesser energy was seen in our 3-space than should have been there. It has proved to be a pretty accurate fiction in many respects, and the idea stuck, and has been expanded in many ways. Here is a decent web site dedicated to the discovery of neutrin and its (occasionally seen) MASS and and its (occasionally seen) OSCILLATION: http://www.phys.hawaii.edu/~jgl/nuosc_story.html ...they seem to change identities from massless, perhaps due to the "negative energy" to massive. This can be possilby due to stimulation, or this can happen slowly over time, as neutrinos travel away from the nuclear event which created them). IOW a solar-neutrino can seem to become 'massive' and interact with matter when the epo wave (which is what they really are) is disrupted into 3-space, following which: real matter is affected) IMHO, and this is more of a semantics issue, there is/was NEVER any 'real' mass to the neutrino - no matter how it oscillates since it is all-wave and zero particle in our 3-space, but unlike the photon, which has mass-energy in our 3-space no matter what it does, the mass-energy of the neutrino must be "force" by a field effect or passage of time (i.e. "time" is a field). 4) A magnetic field may disprupt the normally hidden wave pattern in the solar neutrino flux (which is propagating as traveling-waves in the epo field and normally does not interact with matter, without that "sail" which is the temporary disruption) OK - why attempt to be verbally precise with something which is unproven, and perhaps even a mathematical abstraction, and at the expense of confusing a complicated situation... anyway? hmmm .... nomen est numen ? If math can be precise, then why can't just words can get us part of the way there ? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 14:42:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l06MgcMm005413; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 14:42:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l06MgaEY005396; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 14:42:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 14:42:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=GY++MDQMi+mtVqeGR1kIt3Rpbl2C29RAAOFAUg1ZRqxdI0GnwDUDQIodu4SgS0LNBw6JUOvb4sO85U2WQHgbUOmsNwy1rK3583MMpyzP6npybAtN1LUtW/+uBG0t5U6TpA0CRv5aG0cwlNLfmewV0KBTbblfsXG6yr91HXopIXs= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:42:34 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Evaporating Dirac's Sea In-Reply-To: <45A00EC5.1080507@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45A00EC5.1080507@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71912 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/6/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Like it ! ... except for the choice of the word "evaporate" as it can > imply that the epo somehow disappears. But, it actually would. You drag one of the pair out of the orthogonal dimensions by striking the leading edge of the Planck time increment with the field, which, BTW, might be present although the epo wave equation cannot change faster than 10 ^24 s. As the epo wave rotates and encounters this field, some are phase shifted into our dimension. The pair literally destruct leaving some vectorial fraction of 1.022 MeV of energy in our 3d space. I don't think anyone has considered this one. The magnetic field would be pumping energy from another dimension. I'm thinking about writing Hotson to get his take on this idea. You know, he never addressed magnetism. ;-) Hmmm, I wonder if this could damage our 3d space? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 14:43:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l06Mh7kW005566; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 14:43:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l06Mh6Rj005547; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 14:43:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 14:43:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 09:43:02 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> <459D64E1.6020609@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070104154101.03de9518@mindspring.com> <00f901c73174$e9f0fac0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <00f901c73174$e9f0fac0$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 6 Jan 2007 22:43:02 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l06Mh3Lq005529 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71913 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Sat, 6 Jan 2007 10:27:41 +0100: Hi, [snip] >Aren't photon rockets supposed to be the most efficient of all? > >Michel Yes, however the thrust is worthless, particularly when considering Earth to space vehicles. Perhaps I should have said "...be far and away the most efficient practical way...". What I was trying to get at, is the fact that it would be far more efficient than going through a conversion process and then using e.g. an ion drive. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >To: >Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 9:46 PM >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets > > >> In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 04 Jan 2007 15:56:22 -0500: >> Hi, >> [snip] >>>None. But suppose only CF is made practical, and the temperature is >>>limited to, say, 1000 deg C. I suppose that would call for a two- or >>>three-stage approach, starting with heat to electricity. >>> >> Not necessarily. It is becoming evident that when CF actually occurs, alpha >> particles are the usual nuclear product. It may become possible to arrange for >> them to be ejected directly rather than undergoing any form of conversion at >> all. Multi-MeV alphas would yield a very interesting specific impulse, and also >> be far and away the most efficient way of utilizing the fuel. >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> >> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> >> Competition provides the motivation, >> Cooperation provides the means. >> Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 16:40:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l070dmia027314; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:39:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l070ditw027261; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:39:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:39:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Low-Heat-to-Electricity Conversion Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:41:40 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <000d01c731f0$becb3910$0302a8c0@donw> Resent-Message-ID: <-NhbxB.A.4pG.QFEoFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71915 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An "AHA" post on one of the STEORN ( http://www.steorn.net ) forums brought up the point that not only does their motor produce energy, but when run in reverse is a non-thermal energy sink ( it doesn't get hot ). When thinking of powering laptop computers and cell phones with unlimited energy devices, the problem becomes heat dissipation rather than saving the battery, so now using a reverse STEORN motor, we need an efficient device to collect heat from high power semiconductor devices and convert it to mechanical energy to squirt into a STEORN sink (so your cell phone remains cool). Any Ideas? Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com -----Original Message----- From: DonW [mailto:dwiegel@comcast.net] S http://pesn.com/Radio/Free_Energy_Now/shows/2007/01/06/9700221_Eneco_thermal _electric/ ENECO Engineering Low-Heat-to-Electricity Conversion for Market ENECO chips could replace the Stirling engine in Stirling Energy System's (SES) commercial solar arrays, producing electricity at approximately twice the efficiency but at half the cost.  Inversely, if electricity is applied to the die, a refrigeration effect is evoked, potentially going down as low as minus 200°C.  This, likewise, has a wide range of commercial applications, such as cooling computer systems.  ENECO envisions harnessing the heat produced in a laptop motherboard, for example, and then using that energy to cool the essential components. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 16:40:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l070dvTx027403; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:39:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l070dsqr027374; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:39:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:39:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:41:40 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <000d01c731f0$becb3910$0302a8c0@donw> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71916 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Optics question Status: RO X-Status: In a digital light processing (DLP) display, a light source (soon to be a tri color laser) projects on an array of movable mirrors. The light for the dark parts of the image are sent to a beam dump. That seems wasteful. Is it possible to collect that light and re-introduce it into the primary source? Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 17:40:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l071e5bi016495; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:40:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l071e2kj016479; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:40:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:40:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Hydro Hub Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:39:59 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9qj0q2pusmfndbta90jdh4ameocogcm9f8@4ax.com> References: <001c01c73197$91280410$21027841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001c01c73197$91280410$21027841@xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 7 Jan 2007 01:39:58 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l071dxiJ016441 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71917 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Sat, 6 Jan 2007 07:35:43 -0600: Hi Richard, [snip] >BlankInteresting comparison between R-O and MSF Triple flash distillation methods of desal. Thankfully, we have both processes. Each process has it's benefits and advantages. > > Our tiny manufacturing company struggles with research in methods of reducing the mineral content of brackish and seawater prior to entering the pre-filters of the R-O membrane trains. One of the functions of a water vortex is it's ability to create a vacuum when the spin is induced by mechanical means. We have closely studied the MSF processes and the comparative efficencies vs R-O, in particular , the temperature differentials between the flash stages. One of our test setups include a two stage Lazell Flow Nozzle ( expander rather than a throat venturi effect). The purpose is to determine if we can get the flash without the added cost of heating. >Hmmm.. a sort of a hybrid MSF- RO.. (sounds like the lyrics to RAP music. ) What do you think of this:- http://www.aquasonics.com/tech.html ? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 17:54:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l071rrrM023421; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:53:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l071pmA1022792; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:51:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:51:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:51:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <25k0q2d92mf4g9ucfsfjv7faf0ta254n1e@4ax.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> <459D64E1.6020609@pacbell.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20070104154101.03de9518@mindspring.com> <00f901c73174$e9f0fac0$3800a8c0@zothan> <459FB81A.10508@pobox.com> <013f01c731af$15bbb750$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <013f01c731af$15bbb750$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 7 Jan 2007 01:51:47 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l071pk2c022772 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71918 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:24:05 +0100: Hi, [snip] >Thanks for confirming Stephen, your maths look ok to me; > >What you call "waste" heat can be turned into useful backwards radiation with a proper reflector can't it? I even wonder if a thermonuclear engine producing just heat could not be turned into an efficient photon drive. P.S. It seems it could, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_photonic_rocket While true that a photonic rocket is most efficient if all the fuel mass is converted to photons, it may not be true if that isn't possible. IOW all our current fuel sources only convert a tiny fraction of the mass into energy. This is even true of nuclear reactions. (Not true however of anti-matter reactions). So if we are stuck with a fuel that is largely going to end up as dead weight, then perhaps we are better off ejecting it out the exhaust, rather than hanging on to it, and trying to accelerate it further. Ejecting it has the further advantage that we get a much larger thrust for the same energy expenditure. Sorry, I don't feel like breaking my brain trying to do the math on this one. ;) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 18:44:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l072iFEV001270; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 18:44:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l072iDAB001254; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 18:44:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 18:44:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c73205$b2323a90$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 21:43:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71919 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Optics question Status: RO X-Status: The answer is almost certainly no. Decades ago,while at the Sarnoff laboratories of RCA, TI had a study of their DLP optics going, one of several. Because of the small deflection angle of the mirrors, it was very, very tricky to effectively focus the light from the source on the mirror array, without losing a lot of the light. RCA's results were not accepted in the end; I don't know how it is done now in the commercial units. 'Recycling' the dumped light is apt to be very tricky indeed. It is wasteful, and the lifetime of the HID lamps is limited and its replacement is expensive -- so there is an appreciable expense in operating a DLP TV. The intensity of each pixel is controlled by the duty cycle of its mirror, which has to switch very fast indeed between on and off. Laser illumination would solve some problems and might be used for DLP theater projection, which is gaining momentum. Using three DLP arrays might be advantageous there also, avoiding the use of a color wheel. Mike Carrell > > > In a digital light processing (DLP) display, a light source (soon to be a > tri color laser) projects on an array of movable mirrors. The light for > the > dark parts of the image are sent to a beam dump. That seems wasteful. Is > it possible to collect that light and re-introduce it into the primary > source? > > Hoyt Stearns > Scottsdale, Arizona US > http://HoytStearns.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 18:52:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l072qeOB003410; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 18:52:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l072qddm003401; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 18:52:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 18:52:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Hydro Hub Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 13:52:37 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <4457246.1168100902905.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <4457246.1168100902905.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 7 Jan 2007 02:52:36 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l072qaMr003375 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71920 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Sat, 6 Jan 2007 11:28:22 -0500 (GMT-05:00): Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk writes: > >>>That is not true. If the RO process is 40 times more efficient than MSF (as it was in some situations, in some locations), then even though 60% of the heat used to generate the electricity is wasted, the overall efficiency is still far ahead of MSF. This is similar to the use of heat pumps instead of gas fired furnaces for space heating. >> >>No it isn't. The energy cost for MSF can be essentially zero, when attached to a >>thermal power plant, because that heat is normally thrown away anyway. > >Ah, I see your point. However, RO might be a good choice in areas served by wind power or nuclear power, especially at night. Yes, as long as there is an energy surplus, and a water shortage, there can be a place for RO. However if plug in hybrids become widely used, then the disparity in power usage between day and night may largely disappear. BTW Shuaiba's design specs. are 150 GL / annum from a 780 MW power plant. If we assume that the power plant is operational 365 days a year (best case), then it produces about 22 L of water in addition to the production of every kWh of energy. Based on my consumption of electricity, this would also easily supply my water needs. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 19:22:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l073MigG015106; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 19:22:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l073MguI015090; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 19:22:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 19:22:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001401c7320b$15092b60$2b027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 21:22:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C731D8.C9603190" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <-e5gNB.A.qrD.CeGoFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71921 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Hydro Hub Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C731D8.C9603190 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C731D8.C961B830" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C731D8.C961B830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRobin wrote.. What do you think of this:- http://www.aquasonics.com/tech.html ? http://www.h2ovap.com/annual-report.php?atnavid=3D2=20 http://ezekielproject.org/desalinate.shtml=20 Howdy Robin, Depends on what will happen now.. lloks ike Aquasonics was acquired by = h2ovap. Notice Ezekiel project mentions an Australian project.. how is it going = ? The problem with this process appears to be the same problem at Carslbad = Caverns.. scraping carbonates off the walls takes all the fun out of = work. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C731D8.C961B830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Robin wrote..

What do you think of this:- http://www.aquasonics.com/te= ch.html=20 ?


http://www.h= 2ovap.com/annual-report.php?atnavid=3D2=20

http://ezekielproject= .org/desalinate.shtml=20

Howdy Robin,

Depends on what will happen now.. lloks ike Aquasonics was acquired = by=20 h2ovap.

Notice Ezekiel project mentions an Australian project.. how is it = going ?

The problem with this process appears to be the same problem at = Carslbad=20 Caverns.. scraping carbonates off the walls takes all the fun out of = work.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C731D8.C961B830-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C731D8.C9603190 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c7320b$13e544d0$2b027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C731D8.C9603190-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 19:24:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l073Nupf015774; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 19:23:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l073NtKU015755; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 19:23:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 19:23:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Optics question Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 20:25:51 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <000601c73205$b2323a90$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Resent-Message-ID: <8iZ-nB.A.D2D.KfGoFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71922 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for the prompt reply. I want one of these: http://www.wiredathomeblog.com/blog/laser_dlp/index.html (Texas Instruments DLP arrays switch in 2uS and the mirrors are still larger than optical wavelengths.) A related question: As the micromirrors shrink to sizes below the wavelength of visible light, we must now do some signal processing to create what is really a hologram rather than just a pixel map. Is that kind of processing done now? Is it feasible in the future? The semiconductor industry already creates "phase masks" that account for the wave properties of light at around 32 nm, so the projected image on the silicon is the precise layout they want, but I guess that takes quite a bit of computer power, not feasible in real time. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec@medleas.com] Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 7:44 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Optics question The answer is almost certainly no. Decades ago,while at the Sarnoff laboratories of RCA, TI had a study of their DLP optics going, one of several. Because of the small deflection angle of the mirrors, it was very, very tricky to effectively focus the light from the source on the mirror array, without losing a lot of the light. RCA's results were not accepted in the end; I don't know how it is done now in the commercial units. 'Recycling' the dumped light is apt to be very tricky indeed. It is wasteful, and the lifetime of the HID lamps is limited and its replacement is expensive -- so there is an appreciable expense in operating a DLP TV. The intensity of each pixel is controlled by the duty cycle of its mirror, which has to switch very fast indeed between on and off. Laser illumination would solve some problems and might be used for DLP theater projection, which is gaining momentum. Using three DLP arrays might be advantageous there also, avoiding the use of a color wheel. Mike Carrell > > > In a digital light processing (DLP) display, a light source (soon to be a > tri color laser) projects on an array of movable mirrors. The light for > the > dark parts of the image are sent to a beam dump. That seems wasteful. Is > it possible to collect that light and re-introduce it into the primary > source? > > Hoyt Stearns > Scottsdale, Arizona US > http://HoytStearns.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 02:38:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l07AciQE007891; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 02:38:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l07AcaHf007855; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 02:38:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 02:38:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=ZD4D5mOkQ40/lKcd2Mj6awLQ0BTLLKPyQ6l0wrtUKaUxIyfPr2X+G20Yq8e5/RMG; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007107103828117@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 03:38:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940bbfd4390bedce4525c21356cd6a5c724350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.13 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71923 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Powerex Oilless Scroll Air Compressors Status: RO X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII They should run as expansion motors with air or propane input from 30 PSIG and up. Possibly dry steam at 30 PSIG (270 F) too? Exploded assembly/parts view on page 17. http://www.jplcompressor.com/oillessscroll.pdf Used units & Specs: http://www.aircompeq.com/scroll-2.htm 3 & 5 Hp at 50 PSIG, 9.9 & 16.4 SCFM @ 2900 & 3200 RPM. Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
They should run as expansion motors with air or propane input
from 30 PSIG and up.
 
Possibly dry steam at 30 PSIG  (270 F) too?
 
Exploded assembly/parts view on page 17.
 
 
Used units & Specs:
 
 
3 & 5 Hp at 50 PSIG, 9.9 & 16.4 SCFM @ 2900 & 3200 RPM.
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 07:21:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l07FLMWX028589; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 07:21:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l07FLKTd028557; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 07:21:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 07:21:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=kpg3Lz0+QtcJriu7SvYN7yJEdMyvK7y6IYalxt5pNf04N6JL6ZfgYeDDwf+MPfAGFz2Ck7+3A5DdjDpU3xrQXkVXTdIMRh14siY9MR8n+FgkoZfY8sy9vrA+1xS/e7kgqKGeG0oN6gVIMquifSPZgHLUCbAxQRFUjKmtv1Zq19I= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 10:21:18 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71924 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Transcendent Warfare Status: O X-Status: "Abstract Concerned that a psychical (PSI) gap existed between U.S. and Soviet paranormal research efforts, the CIA sponsored discreet research into paranormal phenomena commencing in 1972. Over the succeeding twenty-three years, the U.S. military and intelligence services were actively involved in paranormal research and operations involving a process known as remote viewing. Remote viewing, which produced specialized human intelligence support, served as part of overall military and government organizations' intelligence collection efforts. In 1995, after assuming remote viewing program management responsibilities from the DIA, the CIA decided to terminate the program based on a controversial review conducted by the American Institutes for Research. Yet, remote viewing's demonstrated capacity for providing unique, non-technical intelligence support posits said program as a leading candidate for exploring currently evolving forms of warfare. Presented within is a brief history of the remote viewing program, an examination of its evolution over the course of more than twenty-three years, and a discussion of its continuing relevance to national security and emerging warfare trends." Read the paper at: http://www.lfr.org/LFR/csl/library/Bremseth.pdf From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 09:11:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l07HBHT5004642; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 09:11:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l07HBG8Z004601; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 09:11:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 09:11:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 17:10:27 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71925 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Particles vs photons in propulsion Status: O X-Status: A particle accelerator ejecting a beam of particles moving at near the speed of light which are made 100 times heavier than rest mass by application of energy from the accelerator will have the equivalent reaction mass of particles moving at 10 times the speed of light. A propulsion system producing relativistic proton beams and relativistic electron beams may be more practical than a propulsion system using extreme flux photon beams. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 09:13:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l07HDdeL028873; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 09:13:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l07HDWmd028848; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 09:13:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 09:13:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 17:12:52 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71926 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Moving satellites Status: O X-Status: Moving satellites Perhaps there could be a positioning service satellite that would fire short pulses of neutral relativistic hydrogen beams to push away space junk or move accommodating design non junk satellites accompanied by ablation without fragmentation. The positioning service satellite may be very massive (to provide steady aim) moderate inclination (to get the beam out of line with uninvolved objects or to change the inclination of the target (the inclination of the target can be kept with multiple firings or in line shots ) slightly above synchronous orbit (to stay out of the way of communications signals and drift around the belt). Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 14:11:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l07MB7nR003617; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 14:11:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l07MB58t003549; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 14:11:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 14:11:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Hydro Hub Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 09:11:01 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7kp2q2h04gmcvkhttmj9ljkus58jq790gs@4ax.com> References: <001401c7320b$15092b60$2b027841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001401c7320b$15092b60$2b027841@xptower> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 7 Jan 2007 22:11:01 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l07MB2Rq003399 Resent-Message-ID: <41pKl.A.U3.4_WoFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71927 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Sat, 6 Jan 2007 21:22:36 -0600: Hi, [snip] >BlankRobin wrote.. >What do you think of this:- http://www.aquasonics.com/tech.html ? > > >http://www.h2ovap.com/annual-report.php?atnavid=2 They mention that aquasonics couldn't quite get the process to work, and I get the general impression that perhaps the water contains a little more TDS than they would prefer, so that it becomes more applicable to heavily contaminated water where a slight residue is acceptable. > >http://ezekielproject.org/desalinate.shtml > >Howdy Robin, > >Depends on what will happen now.. lloks ike Aquasonics was acquired by h2ovap. > >Notice Ezekiel project mentions an Australian project.. how is it going ? Not certain which project he is referring to but this would be my best guess:- http://www.water-technology.net/projects/perth/ > >The problem with this process appears to be the same problem at Carslbad Caverns.. scraping carbonates off the walls takes all the fun out of work. Just connect an ultrasound generator to the metal for a few seconds, and it will shatter the scale crystals, so that they can easily be washed off. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 14:20:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l07MKEV0008859; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 14:20:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l07MKDxw008830; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 14:20:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 14:20:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Particles vs photons in propulsion Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 09:20:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 7 Jan 2007 22:20:10 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l07MKAqK008806 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71928 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to 's message of Sun, 07 Jan 2007 17:10:27 +0000: Hi Charlie, [snip] >A particle accelerator ejecting a beam of particles moving >at near the speed of light which are made 100 times >heavier than rest mass by application of energy from the >accelerator will have the equivalent reaction mass of >particles moving at 10 times the speed of light. A >propulsion system producing relativistic proton beams and >relativistic electron beams may be more practical than a >propulsion system using extreme flux photon beams. Where is the energy to accelerate the particles, coming from? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 14:33:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l07MXBuo016697; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 14:33:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l07MX5Nt016679; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 14:33:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 14:33:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Transcendent Warfare Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 15:34:53 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71929 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remote viewing (RV) really works; I've been involved with it since before it became fashionable. You can prove that to yourself easily. I've done it and even taken a course in it, and presented at the annual remote viewing conference in Nevada ( http://irva.org ). It sure changes one's view of the nature of physical reality, e.g. time appears symmetric with respect to "now", and it's possible to pick a time either in the past or the future and get information. It has been proven that you can even edit the past http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/timereversed.pdf http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/ -- there are an infinite number of plausible pasts in which the "now" state vector is equivalent, or you can edit it to yield a new improved state vector. There are no secrets. Although there's no shortage of theories trying to explain RV, virtually all try to do that based on quantum physics. I contend that it can not be explained in that way because earth-3D-spacetime reality is a virtual world (actually multiple individual virtual worlds), and in general, to simplify, a character in a simulation can not explain the software that's simulating him using the physics being simulated, or even know that he is a simulation. In our case, we can understand how it all works, but it's more of a computer science discipline than physics :-) -- we're just in a Holodeck. Movies like "The Matrix", "The 13th floor", StartrekNG's "Ship in a Bottle" and "Elementary Dear Data" all have surprising elements of truth in them. There's much more to it, of course. You actually may leave the Holodeck if you wish, and change the software and data to anything at all you like. Anomalies, UFO's etc. are semi incompatible entities, sort of like trying to run a PowerPoint presentation thru a MathCAD interpreter --you occasionally may get something interesting, but it's not at all like it actually is with the proper interpreter. Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Concerned that a psychical (PSI) gap existed between U.S. and Soviet paranormal research efforts, the CIA sponsored discreet research into paranormal phenomena commencing in 1972... Read the paper at: http://www.lfr.org/LFR/csl/library/Bremseth.pdf From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 16:01:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0801NA1002992; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 16:01:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0801LJ7002980; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 16:01:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 16:01:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 00:00:47 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71930 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Rocket energy Status: O X-Status: My recent post on particle accelerators was only to express the view that a particle beam could carry more momentum than 1 / 2 mc^2. I want that design compartment to be thoroughly accepted. People may be distracted from thorough acceptance if other issues are brought in too quickly. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 18:02:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0821vtc002069; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:01:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0821j6W002025; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:01:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:01:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Rocket energy Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 13:01:39 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7493q2d85rigbadulp6074bq2pu36aq1bg@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 8 Jan 2007 02:01:38 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0821cfd001938 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71931 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to 's message of Mon, 08 Jan 2007 00:00:47 +0000: Hi Charlie, [snip] >My recent post on particle accelerators was only to >express the view that a particle beam could carry more >momentum than 1 / 2 mc^2. I want that design compartment >to be thoroughly accepted. It carries more momentum as a consequence of increased relativistic mass, which comes from energy imparted to the beam. However I think the momentum transfer would be even greater if that energy had been radiated directly rather than imparted to the particle beam. However it may not make much difference for a particle beam traveling at nearly light speed anyway, and acceleration of a particle beam may be technically easier to achieve. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 18:03:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l082354k017765; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:03:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0822qOU017715; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:02:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:02:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Moving satellites Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 13:02:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2h93q212qnl32q2i526oa2hce72jad102t@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 8 Jan 2007 02:02:48 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0822nML017695 Resent-Message-ID: <8x9aOD.A.rUE.MZaoFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71932 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to 's message of Sun, 07 Jan 2007 17:12:52 +0000: Hi Charlie, [snip] >Moving satellites > >Perhaps there could be a positioning service satellite >that would fire short pulses of neutral relativistic >hydrogen beams to push away space junk or move >accommodating design non junk satellites accompanied by >ablation without fragmentation. The positioning service >satellite may be very massive (to provide steady aim) >moderate inclination (to get the beam out of line with >uninvolved objects or to change the inclination of the >target (the inclination of the target can be kept with >multiple firings or in line shots ) slightly above >synchronous orbit (to stay out of the way of >communications signals and drift around the belt). Why do you want beam weapons in orbit? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 18:20:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l082KQbE012050; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:20:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l082KP9M012030; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:20:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:20:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Optics question Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 13:20:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000d01c731f0$becb3910$0302a8c0@donw> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 8 Jan 2007 02:20:23 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l082KMul011915 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71933 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.'s message of Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:41:40 -0700: Hi, [snip] > > >In a digital light processing (DLP) display, a light source (soon to be a >tri color laser) projects on an array of movable mirrors. The light for the >dark parts of the image are sent to a beam dump. That seems wasteful. Is >it possible to collect that light and re-introduce it into the primary >source? Instead of using the mirrors to direct the beam to a beam dump, simply turn the laser off for a fraction of a second. This will require a change in the logic and electronics, but is much more efficient (instead of recovering the energy, it is simply not used in the first place). It also means that the mirrors can continue to scan the line, maintaining momentum. Then the mirrors need not be as easy to maneuver, which is technically simpler and cheaper to implement, as well as resulting in a more robust design that produces a better quality image. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 20:44:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l084idcn031153; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 20:44:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l084ibGo031142; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 20:44:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 20:44:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 04:43:48 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <5rKnZB.A.ZmH.1wcoFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71934 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Rocket Ideas Status: O X-Status: A fusion power source converts only a small percentage of mass into energy so there may not be enough energy to accelerate all the fusion reaction products to relativistic speeds anyway. This suggests a plasma rocket engine which would have good thrust with adequate Isp, specific impulse. Extremely hot exhaust would be ejected through a magnetic nozzle. An antimatter fueled rocket would contain a lot of energy. The antimater needs to be synthesized from other energy sources. A lightweight particle accelerator producing relativistic thrust from a small amount of mass would be appropriate here. A rocket supplied with energy beamed from a space power transmitter should get as much momentum reaction from its fuel mass as possible so relativistic beams are suitable here if the accelerator is very light. The power transmitter can send out relativistic particle beams rather than light. The momentum of the matter beam may not be captured well by a thin sail, radiation may be generated, and the sail may disintegrate rapidly. A sail with aligned pores open to the impinging beam may work well. Maybe the spacecraft could use part of the drive out beam to synthesize antimatter so antimatter would be created far away going farther. Diode arrays would convert the ambient heat of an atmosphere into electrical power when leaving a planet or large moon with an atmosphere. An onboard energy supply is needed for continued acceleration between the high atmosphere and low space. Diode arrays would also convert the reentry heat of a rocket descending through an atmosphere into retrorocket power. Diode arrays may achieve suitcase gigawatt performance levels. They would convert heat into electricity for spacecraft propulsion and other needs. Diode arrays can recycle the losses of fusion reactors so the nuclear energy produced will appear as net output. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 16:14:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l070Dv3B030440; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:13:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l070DsaV030422; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:13:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 16:13:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "DonW" To: Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:14:04 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01c731f0$becb3910$0302a8c0@donw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l070DrBj030396 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71914 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Low-Heat-to-Electricity Conversion X-Suspected-Spam: billb friends3 Status: RO X-Status: http://pesn.com/Radio/Free_Energy_Now/shows/2007/01/06/9700221_Eneco_thermal _electric/ ENECO Engineering Low-Heat-to-Electricity Conversion for Market ENECO chips could replace the Stirling engine in Stirling Energy System's (SES) commercial solar arrays, producing electricity at approximately twice the efficiency but at half the cost.  Inversely, if electricity is applied to the die, a refrigeration effect is evoked, potentially going down as low as minus 200°C.  This, likewise, has a wide range of commercial applications, such as cooling computer systems.  ENECO envisions harnessing the heat produced in a laptop motherboard, for example, and then using that energy to cool the essential components. "The science is done", says Brown.  "Now we just need to engineer this for production," The company was established in 1991 by Hal Fox in connection with cold fusion research being performed by Pons and Fleishmann at the University of Utah. ENECO was tasked with finding a way of efficiently harnessing low-level heat. In order to be feasible, cold fusion needed a method of converting low-level heat into electricity. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 21:42:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l085ghrJ030512; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 21:42:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l085gfDP030436; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 21:42:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 21:42:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 05:41:53 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71935 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: removing junk [Re moving satellites] Status: RO X-Status: I want to clear out space junk. Its a lot of dangerous objects dispersed in a huge volume. Earthpeople may rise to the responsibility of keeping space safe. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 22:13:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l086D1ZL017956; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 22:13:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l086Cxj4017942; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 22:12:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 22:12:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: removing junk [Re moving satellites] Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 17:12:45 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34o3q25ci4kr28h1jikjni66aqktve97ug@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 8 Jan 2007 06:12:53 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l086CvGm017926 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71936 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to 's message of Mon, 08 Jan 2007 05:41:53 +0000: Hi, [snip] >I want to clear out space junk. Its a lot of dangerous >objects dispersed in a huge volume. Earthpeople may rise >to the responsibility of keeping space safe. > >Aloha, Charlie Most of the space junk we create is in Earth orbit, and it's orbit eventually decays with time, resulting in it burning up in the atmosphere. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 00:29:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l088TmtJ028094; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 00:29:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l088Tkeu028081; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 00:29:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 00:29:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <025901c732ff$261702c0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 09:29:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l088Tig7028057 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71937 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Rocket Ideas Status: O X-Status: > A rocket supplied with energy beamed from a space power > transmitter should get as much momentum reaction from its > fuel mass as possible so relativistic beams are suitable > here if the accelerator is very light. The power > transmitter can send out relativistic particle beams > rather than light. It may work but if power is to be beamed from a power station then light seems better to me. Install a powerful laser source on the Moon and point it to the ship's solar sail. Same thing on Mars for the return trip. Or maybe an array of station-based solar reflectors pointed at the sail, the good old Archimedes way, would work too. This kind of stuff has probably been thoroughly researched already. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 5:43 AM Subject: [Vo]: Rocket Ideas >A fusion power source converts only a small percentage of > mass into energy so there may not be enough energy to > accelerate all the fusion reaction products to > relativistic speeds anyway. This suggests a plasma rocket > engine which would have good thrust with adequate Isp, > specific impulse. Extremely hot exhaust would be ejected > through a magnetic nozzle. > > An antimatter fueled rocket would contain a lot of energy. > The antimater needs to be synthesized from other energy > sources. A lightweight particle accelerator producing > relativistic thrust from a small amount of mass would be > appropriate here. > > A rocket supplied with energy beamed from a space power > transmitter should get as much momentum reaction from its > fuel mass as possible so relativistic beams are suitable > here if the accelerator is very light. The power > transmitter can send out relativistic particle beams > rather than light. The momentum of the matter beam may not > be captured well by a thin sail, radiation may be > generated, and the sail may disintegrate rapidly. A sail > with aligned pores open to the impinging beam may work > well. > > Maybe the spacecraft could use part of the drive out beam > to synthesize antimatter so antimatter would be created > far away going farther. > > Diode arrays would convert the ambient heat of an > atmosphere into electrical power when leaving a planet or > large moon with an atmosphere. An onboard energy supply is > needed for continued acceleration between the high > atmosphere and low space. Diode arrays would also convert > the reentry heat of a rocket descending through an > atmosphere into retrorocket power. > > Diode arrays may achieve suitcase gigawatt performance > levels. They would convert heat into electricity for > spacecraft propulsion and other needs. Diode arrays can > recycle the losses of fusion reactors so the nuclear > energy produced will appear as net output. > > Aloha, Charlie > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 00:34:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l088XoNU013540; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 00:33:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l088Xmmv013521; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 00:33:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 00:33:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <026301c732ff$b5d4a610$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <34o3q25ci4kr28h1jikjni66aqktve97ug@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: removing junk [Re moving satellites] Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 09:33:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l088XjXo013496 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71938 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good point, but the process may take longer than desirable. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: removing junk [Re moving satellites] > In reply to 's message of Mon, 08 Jan 2007 05:41:53 > +0000: > Hi, > [snip] >>I want to clear out space junk. Its a lot of dangerous >>objects dispersed in a huge volume. Earthpeople may rise >>to the responsibility of keeping space safe. >> >>Aloha, Charlie > > Most of the space junk we create is in Earth orbit, and it's orbit eventually > decays with time, resulting in it burning up in the atmosphere. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 02:22:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l08AMF3K027056; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 02:22:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l08AMD69027046; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 02:22:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 02:22:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <027801c7330e$d3f81c80$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <025901c732ff$261702c0$3800a8c0@zothan> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 11:21:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l08AM27q027005 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71939 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Rocket Ideas Status: O X-Status: BTW such Moon station based light beams might also be useful to deviate space junk into, and threatening asteroids out of, an earth intersecting orbit. Not to mention earth uses such as night lighting of disaster areas. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:29 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re: Rocket Ideas >> A rocket supplied with energy beamed from a space power >> transmitter should get as much momentum reaction from its >> fuel mass as possible so relativistic beams are suitable >> here if the accelerator is very light. The power >> transmitter can send out relativistic particle beams >> rather than light. > > It may work but if power is to be beamed from a power station then light seems better to me. Install a powerful laser source on the Moon and point it to the ship's solar sail. Same thing on Mars for the return trip. > > Or maybe an array of station-based solar reflectors pointed at the sail, the good old Archimedes way, would work too. > > This kind of stuff has probably been thoroughly researched already. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 5:43 AM > Subject: [Vo]: Rocket Ideas > > >>A fusion power source converts only a small percentage of >> mass into energy so there may not be enough energy to >> accelerate all the fusion reaction products to >> relativistic speeds anyway. This suggests a plasma rocket >> engine which would have good thrust with adequate Isp, >> specific impulse. Extremely hot exhaust would be ejected >> through a magnetic nozzle. >> >> An antimatter fueled rocket would contain a lot of energy. >> The antimater needs to be synthesized from other energy >> sources. A lightweight particle accelerator producing >> relativistic thrust from a small amount of mass would be >> appropriate here. >> >> A rocket supplied with energy beamed from a space power >> transmitter should get as much momentum reaction from its >> fuel mass as possible so relativistic beams are suitable >> here if the accelerator is very light. The power >> transmitter can send out relativistic particle beams >> rather than light. The momentum of the matter beam may not >> be captured well by a thin sail, radiation may be >> generated, and the sail may disintegrate rapidly. A sail >> with aligned pores open to the impinging beam may work >> well. >> >> Maybe the spacecraft could use part of the drive out beam >> to synthesize antimatter so antimatter would be created >> far away going farther. >> >> Diode arrays would convert the ambient heat of an >> atmosphere into electrical power when leaving a planet or >> large moon with an atmosphere. An onboard energy supply is >> needed for continued acceleration between the high >> atmosphere and low space. Diode arrays would also convert >> the reentry heat of a rocket descending through an >> atmosphere into retrorocket power. >> >> Diode arrays may achieve suitcase gigawatt performance >> levels. They would convert heat into electricity for >> spacecraft propulsion and other needs. Diode arrays can >> recycle the losses of fusion reactors so the nuclear >> energy produced will appear as net output. >> >> Aloha, Charlie >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 02:50:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l08AnoJT005018; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 02:49:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l08AnmJr004991; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 02:49:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 02:49:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <028001c73312$b619a3b0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <000d01c731f0$becb3910$0302a8c0@donw> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Optics question Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 11:49:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l08Ank6P004972 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71940 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A good idea but then it's a different beast altogether, it's a classical scanning laser display, and you must have only one steerable (or rotating multifaceted, one facet per line) mirror per laser source, not an array of micromirrors. The problem with scanning laser displays is that for a given display luminosity laser light is much more expensive than the light bulbs used in DLP displays. And less energy-efficient too I would think, even when taking into account the DLP's light dumping losses in question. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 3:20 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Optics question > In reply to Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.'s message of Sat, 6 Jan 2007 17:41:40 -0700: > Hi, > [snip] >> >> >>In a digital light processing (DLP) display, a light source (soon to be a >>tri color laser) projects on an array of movable mirrors. The light for the >>dark parts of the image are sent to a beam dump. That seems wasteful. Is >>it possible to collect that light and re-introduce it into the primary >>source? > > Instead of using the mirrors to direct the beam to a beam dump, simply turn the > laser off for a fraction of a second. This will require a change in the logic > and electronics, but is much more efficient (instead of recovering the energy, > it is simply not used in the first place). It also means that the mirrors can > continue to scan the line, maintaining momentum. Then the mirrors need not be as > easy to maneuver, which is technically simpler and cheaper to implement, as well > as resulting in a more robust design that produces a better quality image. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 08:24:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l08GOS91023995; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 08:24:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l08GOQt9023985; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 08:24:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 08:24:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=XqC9dbJLZ66+34TOnKpYukWvv0nrCOBZbKmLSibYJxe1jVzq04nU2mozAAak6QbbU7RXt2g3BGs6Hes5rZFVemnwodGfITzBcsmgCElAZchpsWHVU5MvU/FXrIyjMTdsjFyiXiYGmL4W14872mGVsZKNamHnxS4D5pjvXos1D3U= ; X-YMail-OSG: po3IrZMVM1kAY2W5KA.HwqICgOUYE.sDVBaFnIjIU1qW4Jdbfwj8IqW1H_eafCqMhj95QXmeuuEBD8cxaMwd1DbJT0s9MqIyE69a.POKbJwq.kb9BHXTyvEBIw2mh6gBWutMHl2xE.Qm2.A- Message-ID: <45A2702C.1060705@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 08:24:12 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0MqcFC.A.p2F.6AnoFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71941 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: On "AlGoil" and Corporate-Energy-Responsibility Status: O X-Status: Even Oil Drillers are getting into the ecology act ... http://www.petrosuninc.com/alternative-energy.html To paraphrase their corporate motivation for doing this (aside from potential profits down-the-road): Crops such as soybeans and sunflowers produce oil that can be used to make biodiesel, but no food-crop may be sustainable in the long term; and moreover any of them will deprive the world-at-large of food resources. The solution - no pun intended - is to be found in microalgae - now being called either Oilgae or Algoil (the later in homage to AlGore - the most responsible politician to come along (for alternative energy concerns) in decades. Where it nor for the 'chad' debacle in the Sunshine State (a prime area for growing Algoil) he might have been able to do something more substantive and political - instead of cinematic (although one cannot under-estimate how fast "power corrupts" - even corrupting well-meaning individuals - once they get inside the DC beltway). Independent studies have demonstrated that algae are capable of producing 30 times more oil per acre than corn or soybean crops; and can be harvest mechanically (robotically?) all year long. Biodiesel produced from algae contains no sulfur, is non-toxic, has high energy-density like petro-diesel but is even biodegradable (unlike petro-diesel). This IS solar energy conversion, done elegantly, since whereas solar panels are expensive and are around 20% efficient in converting solar to electricity (which is non easily stored), Algoil is up to 60% efficient (triple!) in converting solar into a storable transportation fuel. Plus algae are carbon-neutral, whereas solar panels use so much carbon-equivalent in their manufacture that it takes 5 years to just break even in an ecological sense. Plus, wind farms can be sited over algae ponds for an odd kind of synergy (such as aerating ponds to get more CO2 into the water), and saline ponds, particularly in desert areas work just as well or better than fresh water - so there is no overuse of drinkable water. It is win-win for Algoil. Too bad the same cannot be said for AlGore. And one of the biggest infrastructure advantages of biodiesel compared to other alternative transportation fuels like hydrogen or ethanol, is that it can be used in existing diesel engines, which relieves manufacturers of having to make costly engine modifications. Biodiesel can also be mixed, at any ratio, with conventional petroleum diesel or ethanol/methanol. As a result, the alternative fuel can be used in the current distribution infrastructure, replacing petroleum diesel as a diesel blend, with minimal integration costs. Hey Vo's - Let's have a round of symbolic-applause for Algoil - at least by investing in responsible companies like PetroSun.... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 13:01:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l08L185J030562; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:01:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l08L11Ht030531; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:01:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 13:01:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070108155844.03e1cb80@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 15:59:37 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <7ZpbQ.A.wcH.NEroFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71942 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Mini-Mag Orion rocket concept Status: RO X-Status: Not CF, but impressive: http://www.andrews-space.com/images/videos/PAPERS/Pub-MMOJPLTalk.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 15:31:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l08MBoFW022728; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:13:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l08MBm9Y022714; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:11:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:11:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mini-Mag Orion rocket concept Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:10:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070108155844.03e1cb80@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070108155844.03e1cb80@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 8 Jan 2007 22:10:25 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l08MAPjY022245 Resent-Message-ID: <9e-K-B.A.xiF.kGsoFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71944 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 08 Jan 2007 15:59:37 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Not CF, but impressive: > >http://www.andrews-space.com/images/videos/PAPERS/Pub-MMOJPLTalk.pdf > >- Jed > I have two questions: 1) How are they going to control direction of flight, and prevent off axis thrust from spinning the craft? 2) Where is the Cf coming from to power it? (I presume they mean Cf, and not Cu as indicated on page 12.) Personally, I think anyone would have to be insane to sit that close to a nuclear explosion, let alone a whole series of them. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 16:34:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l08NFQT0016217; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 15:16:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l08MB7k7022498; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:11:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:11:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <006b01c73371$ace3cdc0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000d01c731f0$becb3910$0302a8c0@donw> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Optics question Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:01:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71943 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is a misunderstanding of the nature of DLP technology. The active element is an array of tiny mirrors created by silicon machining techniques, one for each pixel. Each mirror can be tilted by a small angle under control from a TV signal. That tilt determines wihether the light falling on it goes to a location on the screen or to a dump. The average intensityof each pixel is determined by the fraction of time the mirror illuminates the screen. The individual mirrors do not scan, they only switch light to or away from one location on the screen. The optics, once fixed, are quite robust. The only variable is the lamp. which has finite life and must be changed. Mike Carrell ------------------- > In reply to Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.'s message of Sat, 6 Jan 2007 > 17:41:40 -0700: > Hi, > [snip] >> >> >>In a digital light processing (DLP) display, a light source (soon to be a >>tri color laser) projects on an array of movable mirrors. The light for >>the >>dark parts of the image are sent to a beam dump. That seems wasteful. Is >>it possible to collect that light and re-introduce it into the primary >>source? > > Instead of using the mirrors to direct the beam to a beam dump, simply > turn the > laser off for a fraction of a second. This will require a change in the > logic > and electronics, but is much more efficient (instead of recovering the > energy, > it is simply not used in the first place). It also means that the mirrors > can > continue to scan the line, maintaining momentum. Then the mirrors need not > be as > easy to maneuver, which is technically simpler and cheaper to implement, > as well > as resulting in a more robust design that produces a better quality image. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 17:39:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l090LesQ008918; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:23:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l090LcWC008900; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:21:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:21:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: zkExVvcVM1n2F7sNGB0uG_kS59v0NoRpID5gLZCmNnHklwnfplL29fwKjo1GhsQtCmGc3w56exsHGP7KSp8t5GOCcnw5bkgdLd3dAvabIcvU2enw6aCV From: "Rodney Runner" To: Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 19:19:55 -0500 Keywords: Spamato Message-ID: <001001c73383$e451d8d0$6501a8c0@Rodney> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <006b01c73371$ace3cdc0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 thread-index: AcczeEr0PyPdaQIFToOCCv6h9zrxOgAC4riQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71946 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: unsubscribe Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec@medleas.com] Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 5:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Optics question There is a misunderstanding of the nature of DLP technology. The active element is an array of tiny mirrors created by silicon machining techniques, one for each pixel. Each mirror can be tilted by a small angle under control from a TV signal. That tilt determines wihether the light falling on it goes to a location on the screen or to a dump. The average intensityof each pixel is determined by the fraction of time the mirror illuminates the screen. The individual mirrors do not scan, they only switch light to or away from one location on the screen. The optics, once fixed, are quite robust. The only variable is the lamp. which has finite life and must be changed. Mike Carrell ------------------- > In reply to Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.'s message of Sat, 6 Jan 2007 > 17:41:40 -0700: > Hi, > [snip] >> >> >>In a digital light processing (DLP) display, a light source (soon to be a >>tri color laser) projects on an array of movable mirrors. The light for >>the >>dark parts of the image are sent to a beam dump. That seems wasteful. Is >>it possible to collect that light and re-introduce it into the primary >>source? > > Instead of using the mirrors to direct the beam to a beam dump, simply > turn the > laser off for a fraction of a second. This will require a change in the > logic > and electronics, but is much more efficient (instead of recovering the > energy, > it is simply not used in the first place). It also means that the mirrors > can > continue to scan the line, maintaining momentum. Then the mirrors need not > be as > easy to maneuver, which is technically simpler and cheaper to implement, > as well > as resulting in a more robust design that produces a better quality image. > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 18:30:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l091A3vL022110; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:11:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0907sTt029686; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:07:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:07:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070108183933.03e1ec60@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 19:06:24 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Mini-Mag Orion rocket concept In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070108155844.03e1cb80@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0906WuE029041 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71945 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >I have two questions: > >1) How are they going to control direction of flight, and prevent off axis >thrust from spinning the craft? I always wondered how that would work with the original Orion concept, but Dyson and others said they had that under control. With this gadget it should be easier because the explosive charges held in place with tape before it is exploded, so it should hit the center of the target. With the original Orian, they toss the bomb out and have it go off at just the right moment, which seems highly problematic, to say the least. At least with this thing they hold it in place. >2) Where is the Cf coming from to power it? (I >presume they mean Cf, and not Cu >as indicated on page 12.) Dunno. This is kind of like all those rockets people want to make with helium-3. >Personally, I think anyone would have to be insane to sit that close to a >nuclear explosion, let alone a whole series of them. The simulations and tests show that this would not be a problem, believe it or not. However, I would not want to be the first to ride in one. I think these gadgets would be better for deep space applications than Earth to orbit. First, because we do not want to pollution on earth. Second, because lift off from Earth, if the explosion misfires, or something goes wrong with the bomb ejector machine designed by the people who make Coca-Cola machines (really!) for the original Orion, you are toast. Whereas if something goes wrong in deep space, you coast along for a while, fix the problem and then restart. I wonder if you could have a sort of hybrid or half-hot fusion machine, where you position a standard inertial confinement pellet with strips of plastic, and then zap it with laser beams driven by CF. as far as I know, this kind of hot fusion has not produced more energy out than in, but if it produced a small explosion with very rapid ejecta it might be a way to convert CF electricity into thrust. When I discussed lasers previously, I had in mind that ordinary water would be heated to about 1000°C with ordinary CF, and then heated to around 10,000°C with lasers to increase momentum per unit mass of propellant (specific impulse, or ISP -- I believe it is called). Maybe you could even use the same CF engine for high thrust takeoff and low thrust, high ISP, deep space operation. Imagine a CF version of the Phoebus 2, with 5,000 megawatts output, 250,000 lb thrust. On takeoff it consumes ~200 kg of water per second, probably along with booster engines that stay behind on earth. An auxiliary laser system adds another 100 MW to the output steam, raising the temperature somewhat. Once it escapes earth's gravity the main engine throttles way down, and only 0.2 kg per second passes through it (10 kg per minute; 14 tons per day), but the lasers raise the temperature to 10,000°C which gives it a lot more umph. The generator and laser gadgets together might weight as much as the Phoebus 2, producing far less thrust overall, of course. I realize that other approaches are theoretically far more efficient, but I do not think any of them are practical -- or close to practical. Whereas high temperature CF might be close to reality, and generators and lasers exist. Perhaps microwaves or some other method could be used to heat the steam far beyond the melting point of the CF device. Whatever device is lightest would be best. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 18:45:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l091OxI5024743; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:26:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l091OwIM024732; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:24:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:24:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Optics question X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 8324edccdbae1c0007349b58b3c30403 Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20070109012337.2322C8A18E@xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 20:23:37 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71947 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > There is a misunderstanding of the nature of DLP technology. The active > element is an array of tiny mirrors created by silicon machining techniques, > one for each pixel. Each mirror can be tilted by a small angle under control > from a TV signal. That tilt determines wihether the light falling on it goes > to a location on the screen or to a dump. The average intensityof each pixel > is determined by the fraction of time the mirror illuminates the screen. The > individual mirrors do not scan, they only switch light to or away from one > location on the screen. The optics, once fixed, are quite robust. The only > variable is the lamp. which has finite life and must be changed. Exactly right. About 10 years ago, when the practical application of DLP was in its infancy, I was asked to consult about methods of improving light usage in DLP systems. My suggestion, which sounds sophisticated, but is in fact very simple, was as follows: Each mirror facet, instead of being a plane mirror would be etched as a fresnel zone plate, the diffraction equivalent of a lens. At the focus of the zone plates would be a holographic optical element (HOE) that would represent a secondary pixel array much finer than the original mirror zone plate array. The light could then be directed to the proper section of the HOE to illuminate the pixels as needed. Hardly any light would be wasted except for losses due to having an extra element in the system. Naturally, an all black picture would still represent 100% light loss, but on the average, this system would require a much lower power lamp for the same image brightness. This sounds all very well and good, but the digital processing power necessary was not available at consumer prices at the time. As we all know, processor speed and power has increased geometrically in the last decade. I'm still waiting for that call-back. How may Rs in fat chance? M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 19:52:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l092Whbv016305; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 18:34:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l091Tu56025808; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:29:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:29:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XpLQz6F8SXWlpyrP81Mp/NcyQ2TVLBky0QlMbqz6PPH1geWbc1UR9lqu89MXP9CnbPZy0t3vWvQs3RSPqCs+JLj6jtxJxSWFUTUdjOMAIg956tlo4jtffzxwXLyBsbWbEcNzjYFwqyeGQGoiezlYo2D/ViNg7tVOav7Pg5DNvU8= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 20:29:55 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Optics question In-Reply-To: <006b01c73371$ace3cdc0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <000d01c731f0$becb3910$0302a8c0@donw> <006b01c73371$ace3cdc0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71948 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/8/07, Mike Carrell wrote: > There is a misunderstanding of the nature of DLP technology. The active > element is an array of tiny mirrors created by silicon machining techniques, > one for each pixel. You forget the spinning light filter for RGB. Truly a rube goldberg technology: http://www.dlp.com/ Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 00:55:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l097a47Y027313; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 23:37:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l097a1Ue027298; Mon, 8 Jan 2007 23:36:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 23:36:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Optics question Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:34:36 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000d01c731f0$becb3910$0302a8c0@donw> <006b01c73371$ace3cdc0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> In-Reply-To: <006b01c73371$ace3cdc0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 9 Jan 2007 07:34:36 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l097YcbY027088 Resent-Message-ID: <1uYR3.A.eqG.hX0oFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71949 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:01:58 -0500: Hi, [snip] >There is a misunderstanding of the nature of DLP technology. The active >element is an array of tiny mirrors created by silicon machining techniques, >one for each pixel. Each mirror can be tilted by a small angle under control >from a TV signal. That tilt determines wihether the light falling on it goes >to a location on the screen or to a dump. The average intensityof each pixel >is determined by the fraction of time the mirror illuminates the screen. The >individual mirrors do not scan, they only switch light to or away from one >location on the screen. The optics, once fixed, are quite robust. The only >variable is the lamp. which has finite life and must be changed. [snip] Thanks Mike. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 06:45:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l09DQscr019008; Tue, 9 Jan 2007 05:28:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l09DQq5n018999; Tue, 9 Jan 2007 05:26:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 05:26:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000801c733f1$9d6d7640$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000d01c731f0$becb3910$0302a8c0@donw> <006b01c73371$ace3cdc0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Optics question Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:23:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71950 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A bit of history. The first color TV system approved by the FCC was from CBS, which involved a color wheel in front of the CRT, or a belt going around the whole tube. This limited the CRT size, of course, and either slowed the refresh rate or demanded more transmission bandwidth. In a bet-your-company tour de force, RCA developed the compatable color TV system now used worldwide. It was RCA's crowning achievement, plus the technology for putting color and hi-fi sound on VHS tapes. The small size and very fast response of the DLP array makes a color wheel quite reasonable. It also enables better color rendition by the selection of filters. The red phosphor in color CRTs is a bit too orange for best rendition of reds, but that is necessary to get the needed brightness. A color wheel doesn't have that limitation. The competing LCD light valves cand use dichroic mirrors to merge images from three valve arrays, but that approach is apparently not making much commercial headway. Mike Carrell --------------------------------- > On 1/8/07, Mike Carrell wrote: >> There is a misunderstanding of the nature of DLP technology. The active >> element is an array of tiny mirrors created by silicon machining >> techniques, >> one for each pixel. > > You forget the spinning light filter for RGB. Truly a rube goldberg > technology: > > http://www.dlp.com/ > > Terry > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 09:25:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l09G5i55018742; Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:07:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l09F4iD5026953; Tue, 9 Jan 2007 07:04:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 07:04:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070109095738.03f05ed0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 10:03:15 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Optics question In-Reply-To: <000801c733f1$9d6d7640$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <000d01c731f0$becb3910$0302a8c0@donw> <006b01c73371$ace3cdc0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <000801c733f1$9d6d7640$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <6FDpeC.A.FlG.M86oFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71951 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As Hoyte Stearns pointed out, upcoming DLP projection televisions will use an array of lasers instead of a bright light and color wheel. See: http://www.technologyreview.com/NanoTech/17651/ ". . . the main advantage that lasers offer over traditional projection is an increased richness in colors, says Mooradian. The color of light produced by a laser is, by definition, spectrally narrow, varying less than one nanometer on either side of the peak wavelength. . . ." The lasers should last longer than white lights, too. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 10:39:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l09HK346004274; Tue, 9 Jan 2007 09:21:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l09GJaav006118; Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:19:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:19:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45A3C03C.4010509@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 10:18:04 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-Ju0CD.A.ZfB.XC8oFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71952 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Lecture on fusion reactor Status: O X-Status: I found this link while looking at the www.peswiki.com website. It took me 12 hours to download it, but it was worth it. It featured a physicist named Bussard lecturing on a magnetic containment device which fuses B and D to yeild C12 which decays into Be, which decays into He. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606 --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 13:40:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l09KL70d027281; Tue, 9 Jan 2007 12:22:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l09KL2KV027037; Tue, 9 Jan 2007 12:21:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 12:21:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070109151600.03e0ec20@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:19:32 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71953 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Wind turbine accident Status: O X-Status: A 60 m wind turbine in Aomori Japan fell over mysteriously. There was no strong wind at the time. See (in Japanese with photo): http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/news/20070110i501.htm?from=main5 wind turbine accidents are more common than you might think. I doubt that any large-scale energy generation technology can be made perfectly safe. See: http://www.responsiblewind.org/docs/wind_turbine_accidents_in_pictures.pdf - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 20:28:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0A38ito005919; Tue, 9 Jan 2007 19:10:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0A38a2w005887; Tue, 9 Jan 2007 19:08:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 19:08:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001f01c73464$6e16cb30$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <000d01c731f0$becb3910$0302a8c0@donw> <006b01c73371$ace3cdc0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <000801c733f1$9d6d7640$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070109095738.03f05ed0@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Optics question Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 22:07:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71955 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Part of the encoding process in compatable color television is transformationof the RGB signals from the camera into a two dimensional color space diagram with coordinates of chrominance and luminance. This is also used in JPEG encoding. The spectral sensitivity of the camera, projector, and eye are all different and internal compensations are necessary to produce a satisfactory image. The range of colors that can be reproduced in a display will depend on how deep into the red one can go without losing brightness; same with green and blue. LCD and DLP displays use filters with white light sources. CRTs are limited by what phosphors will do, as are the plasma displays [which are arrays of tiny fluorescent lamps]. Lasers produce pure colors, but there may also be limitations in how red the red, greeen the green and blue the blue. The purity of each color does not in itself guarantee fidelity or richness of the color display, unless the source colors map into the extremes of the chrominance-luminance space. One-paragraph articles about laser illuminators don't give all the relevant data. Mike Carrell ------------------------------------------ > As Hoyte Stearns pointed out, upcoming DLP projection televisions will use > an array of lasers instead of a bright light and color wheel. See: > > http://www.technologyreview.com/NanoTech/17651/ > > ". . . the main advantage that lasers offer over traditional projection is > an increased richness in colors, says Mooradian. The color of light > produced by a laser is, by definition, spectrally narrow, varying less > than one nanometer on either side of the peak wavelength. . . ." > > The lasers should last longer than white lights, too. > > - Jed > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 20:40:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0A3K3gS010667; Tue, 9 Jan 2007 19:21:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0A2G3lx006184; Tue, 9 Jan 2007 18:16:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 18:16:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 8S6sJ0kVM1mQ3qsTUMlKVm.lkxO6gXpXStIJhB_i37FjeNAJ9hSmealLm2I1OxS5IixEJ9RL9OhHQ74V3AngTce906ec6GMoQsI74pHODheM6Pq6kIk0Bghc5TXlTmhNbv3uZjdBu_gDbh0- Message-ID: <45A44C0F.50901@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 21:14:39 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Wind turbine accident References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070109151600.03e0ec20@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070109151600.03e0ec20@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71954 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > A 60 m wind turbine in Aomori Japan fell over mysteriously. There was no > strong wind at the time. The cause of failure is probably unrelated, but I'm reminded of problems which happened when sailboats first started using heat-treated rod rigging. The rigging would occasionally break -- but it often happened when the boats were riding at anchor or peacefully in the harbor, in a light breeze with no sails set. Apparently the cracking of the rods would proceed just to a certain depth under constant load, and then the rods would finally snap when the load became extremely variable (i.e., they "wiggled around" a lot), as would happen when sitting in the harbor or at anchor. The heat treatment, which made the rods stronger, also made them harder and more crack-prone. IIRC, some early heat-treating was done with the rod still on rolls, after which it was straightened -- which sure sounds like a recipe for disaster (and, of course, it was). > See (in Japanese with photo): > > http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/news/20070110i501.htm?from=main5 > > wind turbine accidents are more common than you might think. I doubt > that any large-scale energy generation technology can be made perfectly > safe. See: > > http://www.responsiblewind.org/docs/wind_turbine_accidents_in_pictures.pdf > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 01:22:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0A82UHZ021160; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:03:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0A82SU2021148; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:02:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:02:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 02:58:27 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Optics question In-reply-to: <001f01c73464$6e16cb30$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71956 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Other display technologies in development or soon to be marketed include SED (surface conduction electron emission) and nanotube TV... http://news.com.com/Carbon+TVs+to+edge+out+liquid+crystal,+plasma/2100-1041_ 3-5512225.html and OLED (organic light emitting diodes)... http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/organicOLEDsdisplays.php Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 01:30:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0A89xwf023445; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:11:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0A89xMi023425; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:09:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:09:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAHMtpEXLrQI1UGdsb2JhbAANjSgBASo X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,166,1167580800"; d="scan'208"; a="1057009280:sNHT30505494" Message-ID: <45A49F00.1090700@iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:08:32 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Cold fusion powered rockets References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070104114126.03e02250@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71957 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > See: > > http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19920005899_1992005899.pdf > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket > > It is interesting to think about how one might apply high temperature > CF for a rocket engine. I am rewriting my book, based on the Japanese > edition which I just finished writing. I am thinking about beefing up > the rocket propulsion section. My problem is that I know next to > nothing about rockets, so I better run this subject by the audience > here, especially Ed Storms who is an expert in nuclear propulsion. > > I would like to know how much mass of propellant a rocket would > require to launch from earth to orbit, and from earth to Mars. Based > on the Wiki paper it seems fission rockets from earth to orbit did not > have many advantages over conventional ones, but the transit to Mars > would be a lot faster. > > A 50 MW engine described in Ref. 1 consumed 2.36 kg/s of hydrogen > propellant (0.05 kg/MW), and a 5 GW NERVA rocket that was the planned > would have consumed 121 kg/s (0.02 kg/MW). This 5 GW unit would have > been remarkably small. If I do my calculations right, it would produce > as much energy in one day (0.97 days) as a 100 kiloton nuclear bomb, > which is astounding. > > For a deep space engine, people have been talking about using high ISP > Ion thrusters. According to Wiki and other sources, these have about > an order of magnitude better than liquid fuel rocket engines, but a > very poor power/weight ratio, and a very low propellant flow. > Apparently you cannot just increase the flow to any level you like. > Perhaps with a CF power supply you could generate 50 MW or even > gigawatts continuously for months. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster#Thrust > > According to Wiki the best possible ion engine would be linear > particle accelerator for specific impulse of 30 million seconds (!) > but you cannot push much mass through one so the actual thrust is > negligible. It is not clear to me whether this is a design limitation > or whether it is because people do not have portable 5 GW electric > power supplies. > > I am not sure what kind of generator would work for this. > Thermoelectric generation might work; electrohydrodynamics would be > great; but I was thinking perhaps one could use water to drive a steam > turbine, condense and recycle some of the steam (with large cooling > fins I suppose), and then reheat some of the other waste steam for > propellant. > > Plan B might be a high temperature CF can be used to heat the > propellent (hydrogen or water) to high temperature gas, and perhaps > something like lasers with CF generated electricity then boosts the > gas temperature far above the melting point of the CF cell, kind of > like an inertial confinement hot fusion reactor. Of course converting > heat to electricity and using lasers would be energy inefficient but > as I said the idea would be to conserve propellant. > > What we want are rockets that can achieve continuous 1 G thrust with a > payload of, say, 20,000 DWT (a small freight ship). Assuming the ratio > of ship to payload is the same as a Boeing 747, the empty ship would > weight about 30,000 tons. I have no idea how much the propellant would > weigh, or how much energy it would take. 1 G carries you to the moon > in ~3 hours, which is about as long as I care to be crammed into a > seat. I am not sure how long it would take to get to Mars at kind of > acceleration (of course it depends on how far away Mars is at the > moment) . . . > > NASA says Mars is usually about 78,300,000 km away > (http://aerospacescholars.jsc.nasa.gov/HAS/cirr/em/9/2.cfm) and it > takes about 6 months to get there, but they figure it can be reduced > to 4 months (http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/mars/marsprof.html). > With constant 1 G acceleration I gather it would take around 3 days. > That's more like it! See: > > http://www.cthreepo.com/cp_html/math1.htm > > Enter 39 million for half the trip; ignore earth's gravity. This comes > out 2 days. > > A more sophisticated calculator: > > http://home.att.net/~srschmitt/script_starship.html > > For Mars, enter 1.5 AU (from data shown below on this page), and 1 G. > It comes out 3.5 days. The longest trip in the solar system would be > 17 days. Alpha Centuri is 3.5 years for the person on board, 5.9 years > earth time, taking into account special relativity. > > 20,000 DWT is fine for Mars, but for interstellar travel you want to > bring all your stuff. So let's Think Big. Even 30,000 tons is peanuts > by the standards of modern container ships. For interstellar travel > done right, I say take a fleet of 1,000 container ships, each with a > 151,000 tons payload. Now that would take a lot of energy and a lot of > propellant! > > - Jed > > Jed I know something about rockets. The key irony of the cold fusion/ plasma fusion fight is that cold fusion powered plasma rockets is always where interplanetary space propulsion was going. A plasma rocket is a plasma reactor with a controlled leak. Unfortunately plasma reactors don't actually work :-P Even with no leaks so one with a leak would be even less likely to work! All is not lost however; with a bank of cold fusion reactors providing the power we don't need stable break even in the plasma reactor we can run the think hot and unstable. The result would be fast 2000+ isp to Mars or elseware in the system. In the atmosphere we could make fusion ram jets and fusion electric fans that take a craft to the edge of space where much less fuel is required to get into orbit. Above 30 miles you could actually dive into orbit gaining most of your momentum from a crude high altitude gravity slingshot effect. It is possible to your a slow rocket design fueled with water using fusion to both crack the water into Oxygen and hydrogen , super heating both and feeding them to a rocket nozel. This would give a low Isp but a good thrust with an easy to get and store fuel. Balanced with a ion or plasma engine it would give a high thrust start and then a low thrust high ISP sustained transit. In theory you can combined a Oxygen after burner to the super heated hydrogen gas flow from a nuclear rocket or a plasma rocket [assuming your also feeding in electrons to convert the H+ ions in combustible Hydrogen. Take a look a Bob Zubrins work on mars direct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Direct The plan has been accepted as the only way to goes, even Nasa is using it in their design. A cold fusion design is easy, CF units on a robot ship powers a powerplant to make fuel on mars for the return of sample and people to earth a manned ship is then sent when the return fuel is ready. CF makes it all very much easier particularly if its a robust, maintenance free CF system. I do not believe we will see a cold fusion thermal rocket using simple boiled fluid; Such systems are compact and simple but the ISP stinks. Also remember the Eugene Malove wrote on rocketry, The Spacedrive book and I think he wrote on CF spacedrives early on. I'll hunt up a reference. There was also some discussion of space propulsion way back in the Fusion Facts period, Hal Fox is a rocket scientist and it would be useful to chat with him on the subject. and check the Fusion facts archive CD's for papers. Please note: Many it seems have not heard of the high temperature cartrage fed CF design. Gas discharge cells are charged and primed in parallel on rack and then discharged in series in a heat engine or jet turbine. The spent units are fed back to the rack for repriming or recycling. in effect the fusion cells are used like ammunition in a "gattling reactor". I think this design was cooked up by Hal Fox way back in 1990-91. It seems to have been forgotten or never described to new people in the field. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 02:14:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0A8sNoJ022683; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:55:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0A8sL4l022660; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:54:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:54:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAP43pEXLrQI1UGdsb2JhbAANjSgBASo X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,166,1167580800"; d="scan'208"; a="17460232:sNHT7138368" Message-ID: <45A4A94D.2030504@iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:52:29 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Wind turbine accident References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070109151600.03e0ec20@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070109151600.03e0ec20@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71958 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > A 60 m wind turbine in Aomori Japan fell over mysteriously. There was > no strong wind at the time. See (in Japanese with photo): > > http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/news/20070110i501.htm?from=main5 > > wind turbine accidents are more common than you might think. I doubt > that any large-scale energy generation technology can be made > perfectly safe. See: > > http://www.responsiblewind.org/docs/wind_turbine_accidents_in_pictures.pdf > > > - Jed > > Looks like they used a dodgy batch of concrete. The fracture surface is very smooth and theres no fragments attached to the rebar. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 02:32:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0A9Bu6Q026877; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 01:13:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0A9BtMP026861; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 01:11:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 01:11:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAALQ8pEXLrQI1UGdsb2JhbAANjSgBASo X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,166,1167580800"; d="scan'208"; a="17473513:sNHT8994606" Message-ID: <45A4AD79.4030206@iinet.net.au> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 20:10:17 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71959 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.'s message of Tue, 26 Dec 2006 19:33:32 -0700: >Hi, >[snip] > > >>Some half-baked ideas from memory on previous lists (somewhat jocularly): >> >>Buying cheap land under high tension power lines. >>Selling energy stocks ( and the many subsidiary industry stocks) short. >>Starting filling station remodeling companies. >>Buying Neodymium (The Chinese have already cornered that market :-( ). >>Making retrofit car engines. >>Inventing heat dissipation technology for portable devices. >>Selling road and sidewalk heaters to melt snow in north east cities. >>Build perpetual hot air balloons. >>Selling power back to the power companies (~US$60.00 per day for a >>residential generator unit). >>Desalination plants. >>No more concern for energy efficiency in homes, vehicles -- the end of the >>insulation business. >>No more interest in the middle east at all -- let them go their own way. >>Extracting gold from sea water. >>Making gasoline from air and water. >>Disinfecting drinking and pool water by boiling it. >>Selling scrap power plant parts. >>Dismantling wind farms and hydro plants. >>Replace broadcast antenna towers with perpetually hovering helicopters. >>Completely new airplane designs where no fuel has to be onboard, and >>efficiency doesn't matter. >>Self heating soup cans. >>Self cooling soft drink cans. >>Car air conditioners and heaters that are on all the time. >>Send your car up into the air ( hot air balloon or helicopter rotor) or >>around the block 'til you call it back -- no parking places needed. >>Buildings supported by compressed air (should be more immune to earthquakes >>as well as cheaper). >> >> > >They are worse than half-baked, they are suicidal. Let's hope that humanity has >enough sense to avoid such stupidity. We currently have a global warming >problem, *at least* partially driven by the greenhouse effect. While FE would >solve that problem, extreme profligate waste will create a new problem of direct >heat overload. It is therefore imperative that efficiency measures be continued >along with the introduction of FE. >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. > > > You folk's need to read the old fusion facts papers on cold fusion the planetary heating proble was dealt with a decade and a half ago by Hal Fox et al. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 07:00:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0ADdw63031300; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 05:41:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0ADdqgl031228; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 05:39:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 05:39:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001001c734bc$9e538c40$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <45A4AD79.4030206@iinet.net.au> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 08:38:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71960 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is a fundamental difference between global warming produced by fossil fuels and that by anticipated cold fusion or BlackLight Power. The greenhouse gases from burning persist in the atmosphere decades after the burning event and their effect is cumulative. Waste heat from nuclear, CF and BLP is instant and does not persist. Mike Carrell ------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wesley Bruce" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:10 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: >>They are worse than half-baked, they are suicidal. Let's hope that >>humanity has >>enough sense to avoid such stupidity. We currently have a global warming >>problem, *at least* partially driven by the greenhouse effect. While FE >>would >>solve that problem, extreme profligate waste will create a new problem of >>direct >>heat overload. It is therefore imperative that efficiency measures be >>continued >>along with the introduction of FE. >>Regards, >> >>Robin van Spaandonk >> From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 08:35:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0AFEpNw020297; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 07:16:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0AFEo3n020285; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 07:14:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 07:14:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070110100612.03da5ce8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 10:12:58 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71961 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: "Fire from Water" on Google video Status: O X-Status: Steve Krivit's New Energy Institute, in cooperation with the New Energy Foundation (two separate entities) has released an "edited version" of the video "Cold Fusion: Fire from Water." See: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6426393169641611451&q=COLD+FUSION&hl=en The original is 70 minutes long; the edited version is 38 minutes long. I do not know what they cut, but it seems the parts I wrote are still there, I am glad to report. I have been trying to distribute this video more widely for many years, so I am very pleased to see this. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 08:56:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0AFbXhY007589; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 07:38:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0AFbVrF007569; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 07:37:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 07:37:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=g/ik+6slxmAkPsikVYIzZD2qA/k277slPx3Sd7IQx/SyZlH37gU0RZhPcX/d3aggyILE7vz2djbWMnA6B5PurH5B/Vto8ZHjGmtQUocY9ZeAAGUZsEYuOvK/Lvwi1X9OiG4J35uj1jO3xL2Hf363uajhi8++MNnhBaIbEl30KRs=; X-YMail-OSG: aSxc1Z8VM1lBOQ6CRIaUeG5E7rFbGKRWo6oBKthyBSc0kVgZ2DB7rYGYXXDdI65.Ltg.GO1rtuQZhD_P92.UTlSwHo8ydNF4lmirYqclQl7G0d_Wt_gCL5LiCfTDES14H743.cWeOrcKGdIYmuW3kH.iZeoLQuqDJmy.GOQrFSN7LigeaHi5YASD5CDrh_CLpw6xIw-- Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 07:36:05 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <721325.3698.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <5xP5tB.A.H2B.7gQpFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71962 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > Waste heat from nuclear, CF and BLP is instant and does not persist. That's true. It does not generate nasty waste, but still the energy persists and would contribute to global warming. That is why I am researching FRE (Free Recyclable Energy). Furthermore such technology required to recycle ambient energy is old technology not even requiring QM and therefore is not a security risk due to terrorists and rogue countries such as Iran and N.Korea. Objects such as electrons and atoms at room temperature are moving at high speeds. This is a endless supply of energy. The device moves energy from ambient temperature (surrounding vibrating atoms) in to a device such as computer. The device then returns the energy to the environment, thus completing the beautiful cycle-- Recyclable Energy. One can verify this by one of three experiments --> 1. MCE. This is initially very difficult. 2. A resistor and LED connected in series. A small carbon composite resistor generates voltage noise. All LED's emit photons even below the forward voltage. The noisy resistor will generate photon wave packets. 3. T-ray lens. At room temperature all matter radiates T-rays. Most materials have appreciably high emissivity. For example, a thin one square meter of such material radiates over 900 watts (~460 watts per side). There are methods of focusing such radiation. Regards, Paul Lowrance __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 09:20:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0AFwwm6009618; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 08:00:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0AFwvL1009605; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 07:58:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 07:58:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070110105536.03e01538@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 10:57:28 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Optics question In-Reply-To: <001f01c73464$6e16cb30$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> References: <000d01c731f0$becb3910$0302a8c0@donw> <006b01c73371$ace3cdc0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <000801c733f1$9d6d7640$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> <7.0.1.0.2.20070109095738.03f05ed0@mindspring.com> <001f01c73464$6e16cb30$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71963 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >One-paragraph articles about laser illuminators don't give all the >relevant data. On the other hand, there is more detail in the rest of the article. - Jed >Mike Carrell > >------------------------------------------ > >>As Hoyte Stearns pointed out, upcoming DLP projection televisions >>will use an array of lasers instead of a bright light and color wheel. See: >> >>http://www.technologyreview.com/NanoTech/17651/ >> >>". . . the main advantage that lasers offer over traditional >>projection is an increased richness in colors, says Mooradian. The >>color of light produced by a laser is, by definition, spectrally >>narrow, varying less than one nanometer on either side of the peak >>wavelength. . . ." >> >>The lasers should last longer than white lights, too. >> >>- Jed >> >> >> >>________________________________________________________________________ >>This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. Department. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 10:47:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0AHScfW012562; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 09:29:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0AHSbco012549; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 09:28:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 09:28:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070110121945.03e1d718@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:27:05 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE In-Reply-To: <721325.3698.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <721325.3698.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71964 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: >That's true. It does not generate nasty waste, but still the energy >persists . . . No, it does not persist. Where there are no heat absorbing bodies on the ground, heat radiates from the earth in about a half-hour. That is why deserts quickly grow cold at night. On the other hand, when you generate a continuous flow of heat in a concentrated area, that area does grow warmer, and it stays warm, because the heat is replenished. That is why we have "heat islands" in major cities. This heat damages the ecosystem and it makes people uncomfortable, therefore we should limit total energy production. This amounts to the same thing, but it is incorrect to say that heat "persists." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 12:01:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0AIU9Mi017633; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 10:42:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0AHc9aX015283; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 09:38:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 09:38:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=Ic2yKLZ/SjrFVDLx5Rlx3ycTeHJRv3BS+ceyQGxjueeDOGl/zhQZF2XuKOExZHlrdxawddzAFDlPP5lzIodgXvOxOlbCSUUsBJ6xyJRTq+AX/8LxusG6YGnOG9VYRhQX+p9V5EdwDsJ0Yt6/d1IHWeMMrIlHRRnJyHRnxAvT2o0= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 10:38:07 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71965 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Bio.... BUTANOL? Status: O X-Status: Very interesting article. http://www.forbes.com/business/2006/06/20/ethanol-fuel-biobutanol-cz_kad_0620ethanol.html SAN FRANCISCO - DuPont and BP, riding the global wave of enthusiasm for bio-based fuels, announced today that the two companies have developed a new biofuel called biobutanol that they say has 30% more energy density than ethanol ... One distinct advantage of biobutanol: Cars can use close to 100% of the fuel without making any vehicle modifications, DuPont says. To use that high a concentration of ethanol, car engines have to be modified into something known as a "flex fuel vehicle. wow. The whole, usable with no modifications, bit, is staggering. This is potentially very very good. -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 13:14:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0AJsDLR027369; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:55:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0AJsBCr027347; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:54:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:54:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=FQWG7khvZbF/JmqJ441tQeHzkxzAOfBK5mKDvrjT9Ja0ywmY+ExGYbJy830eOW1RSeTdfEEII0/1bU5zQ9h5uWWRgqyaxtXT8FFncgYZHa7MseVm74hW2NcbFiM+y92oIk+mPQm45pXUsvnr1KdSufngTKwRtKv+25ScPGpcP0c=; X-YMail-OSG: YIeHeyQVM1mt3ibNTingJLC2m.o5bmDaEWN290vZMzbhLe6.AabcX8G7u9Ze7upN5oX3tZ8Pi958TptHrfp_1Nb.uHNPR7zvV5p7R7e8zL2mqwTfhS88nks_ryQsIzQh7P.p7ApXm7m_Iw-- Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:52:44 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <718146.17270.qm@web62415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71966 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Paul wrote: > >> That's true. It does not generate nasty waste, but still the energy >> persists . . . > > No, it does not persist. Where there are no heat absorbing bodies on the > ground, heat radiates from the earth in about a half-hour. That is why > deserts quickly grow cold at night. I'm sorry and no offense, but IMHO that is pure fuzzy logic and an incorrect POV. This is a serious topic. To ***add*** an extra continuous source of power to the planet, X watts, will obviously increase the planets temperature, thereby causing the planet to emit more radiation to reach equilibrium. Earth and nature are highly sensitive to small average increases in temperature. It would be bad enough to increase the planets temperature by a small percentage, but what you are talking about is not a small increase. Energy is costly at present. Can you imagine if energy were free whereby billions of people, millions of vehicles, homes, businesses, etc. etc. are ***adding*** energy?!?! It will kill this planet! Soon to follow will be free water via water wells. At the moment it requires too much energy to extract water from air. Via free energy everyone home, business, farm, and nation will have a free water air wells. Gas powered homes, stoves, ovens, water heaters will all be converted to electricity. Vehicles will be converted to electricity. Presently we can extract valuable minerals from sea water-- from gold to boron. Although it's too costly as it requires vast amounts of energy. Can you imagine how many people and companies will begin prospecting the oceans. What about the soils? Need some iron? Just melt the ground to extract iron, silicon, etc. What about vehicles? Humanity is on the verge of air vehicles. A company is fine-tuning such an air vehicle, which will utilize a new upcoming computerized air traffic system. The average twenty thousand miles per year will be a drop in the bucket with "free energy" air vehicles. Sorry, but global warming is already very real. Ice shelves the size of U.S. states are breaking free and melting. I would admit that it seems a lot of global warming is caused by the Suns cyclic pattern, but humanity is making an appreciable contribution. We need FRE (Free Recyclable Energy), not ZPE, or unlimited nuclear energy, etc. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 15:19:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0AM04ER030632; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 14:01:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0AKwa0e012149; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:58:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 12:58:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 15:56:07 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE In-reply-to: <718146.17270.qm@web62415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71967 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Earth and nature are > highly sensitive to small average > increases in temperature. It would be bad enough to > increase the planets temperature by a > small percentage, but what you are talking about is > not a small increase. Energy is > costly at present. Can you imagine if energy were free > whereby billions of people, > millions of vehicles, homes, businesses, etc. etc. are > ***adding*** energy?!?! It will > kill this planet! Some of the "free" energy could be used to operate some sort of global heat pump system to ensure the biosphere does not get too warm. Consequently the price of free energy is the cost of keeping the planet cool. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 20:19:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0B309H7030059; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:01:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0B0rjCe010056; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 16:53:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 16:53:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20070110185210.u16v4igf4g4kc4wk@webmail.usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 18:52:10 -0600 From: temalloy@usfamily.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.2) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71968 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: trailer for a video on 2012 Status: O X-Status: http://www.2012theodyssey.com/Trailer.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 22:09:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0B4o2su019466; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 20:51:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0B3h3Qp015679; Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:43:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:43:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:41:39 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <11cbq29u4lbmdvbdas2h8h31p6lse5do5b@4ax.com> References: <718146.17270.qm@web62415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 11 Jan 2007 03:41:39 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0B3feZM015408 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71969 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Wed, 10 Jan 2007 15:56:07 -0500: Hi, [snip] >> costly at present. Can you imagine if energy were free >> whereby billions of people, >> millions of vehicles, homes, businesses, etc. etc. are >> ***adding*** energy?!?! It will >> kill this planet! > >Some of the "free" energy could be used to operate some sort >of global heat pump system to ensure the biosphere does not get >too warm. > >Consequently the price of free energy is the cost of keeping >the planet cool. Most of human contribution to global warming is as a consequence of greenhouse gasses. This is considerably larger than our actual contribution in terms of thermal energy. By converting to CF globally, we would eliminate the greenhouse gas contribution. In the near term, our contribution to thermal energy would be minimal. The Sun supplies 10000 times more power than we currently use, so our actual contribution is insignificant. Nevertheless wasteful use of CF combined with a growing and wealthier population, would eventually put us back where we are today. So it would be wise to continue along the path of energy efficiency. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 08:10:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0BEo42d020467; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:51:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0BDkTTD013154; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 05:46:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 05:46:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:44:30 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71970 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: abundant recycled energy Status: O X-Status: Burning fossil fuels adds a burden new thermal energy plus waste heat to the planet plus pervasive heat where CO2 added to the atmosphere holds heat for a long time. Clean fusion will add new thermal energy plus a burden of waste heat to the planet without adding pervasive heat. FRE will absorb as much heat as it releases without directly involving greenhouse gases. FRE will support many people doing a lot of things. How much energy people use will depend on personal attitudes as socialized. I think that most people will be reasonable about energy use and appreciate elegant design. The psychological advice of not paying attention to undesirable behavior may keep people from pointless behavior. For example, the behavior of destroying something rather than giving it away will not persist. Therefore things will be restored and repaired where reasonable. Also, I don't think many women will change their clothes more than ten times a day just because clothes will be cheap and easily cleaned and repaired by robotic menders. I don't know if people will stop covering themselves with blankets when they sleep just because they can heat a room with a lot of fresh air cheaply for there is a custom in India of piling a lot of blankets on a guest as a gesture of hospitality to help them relax and get to sleep. Quiet cordless refrigerators, cheap stoves, small personal washing machines and cordless big sharp T.V. will allow people to nest if they are so inclined. Cheap energy will allow communities to create new ecological features. Estuaries can be created rather than destroyed. This will require careful consideration because there is a role for bare coasts. If more people live in the tropics so there is more building cooling than heating than there can be an energy surplus that can be used to extract CO2 from the air and decompose it. This may be worth doing. The synthesized carbon would be very pure. Energy can also be deliberately microwaved away from the planet. I don't think that thermal infra red can be preferentially directed from one radiative panel to another by lenses. I would substitute an infra red rectenna as a practical means for converting background infra red to electricity. I believe that the diode array is the most practical energy recycling device. I would prefer calling it Cheap Recycled Energy because cheap is easier to support than free. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 10:14:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0BGBqFD011470; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 08:13:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0BGBjFC011437; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 08:11:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 08:11:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=QrQx+B0e4pammzIdzIE9cKtGqbZiN3oNdxJk5ccck20rOp/b6f82Nsq5VnlBKSDiJNTTe3nzg38mYHbs/B7KhCQV5KZFcTMSyFcUWI5L49KpHE2RjSX2G10+azX1tbHkCSPUWsv2GLiHLVZVyuaO4FqlPco68FjP8ZdMiHILO+o=; X-YMail-OSG: 7XOD0jEVM1lJlPBfH7bKqqJz7fOkyK8OgJgJogI9n7n.V7wzUbg5q8fzRrILIFG1nz.V7j4RkDP05DnvW0ip7_ZpvWpbCp3BYzllMpx.dffoLfWTxxfIqar0a3Nb1pw0B83zrFOWBaqLuwR6gtzHfR.6Kqpg1AjIpZVFKdS0PuDqDwJqfy1jQq3S.F.A3j88FTUfKg-- Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 08:10:36 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <896795.81996.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71971 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Wed, 10 Jan 2007 15:56:07 -0500: > Hi, > [snip] >>> costly at present. Can you imagine if energy were free >>> whereby billions of people, >>> millions of vehicles, homes, businesses, etc. etc. are >>> ***adding*** energy?!?! It will >>> kill this planet! >> Some of the "free" energy could be used to operate some sort >> of global heat pump system to ensure the biosphere does not get >> too warm. >> >> Consequently the price of free energy is the cost of keeping >> the planet cool. > > Most of human contribution to global warming is as a consequence of greenhouse > gasses. This is considerably larger than our actual contribution in terms of > thermal energy. By converting to CF globally, we would eliminate the greenhouse > gas contribution. In the near term, our contribution to thermal energy would be > minimal. The Sun supplies 10000 times more power than we currently use, so our > actual contribution is insignificant. You're correct in that pollution is obviously by far the worst. Although you're thinking in terms of averaging and spreading the energy humanity contributes over the entire planet. It's a little more complex than that, as humanity tends to gather in groups forming large cities. We can detect temperature changes during traffic hours near cities. This creates temperature gradients. My point was that present rise in temperatures will be a drop in the bucket with global "free energy" unless we develop FRE (Free Recyclable Energy) machines. IMHO the idea of personal and portable ZPE, cold fusion, etc. devices is suicidal. Regards, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 12:05:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0BIjOiY012851; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:46:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0BIjMBa012836; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:45:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:45:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001001c735b0$6dbc4640$1f027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:43:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7357E.2285E460" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71973 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: FRE Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7357E.2285E460 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7357E.2285E460" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7357E.2285E460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankPaul wrote.. My point was that present rise in temperatures will=20 be a drop in the bucket with global "free energy" unless we develop FRE (Free Recyclable=20 Energy) machines. IMHO the idea of personal and portable ZPE, cold fusion, etc. devices=20 is suicidal. Howdy Paul, Not to worry, hide and watch the scene unfold. Imagine a gravy train = with biscuit wheels( the world economy).. The train doesn't fly off the = track on a tight curve, It doens't crash into another train, it doesn't = collapse a bridge....=20 The biscuit wheels get soggy from the gravy and slowly sinks into the = track and rolls over on it's side. No noise, no shouting, just a few = watching with awe..=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7357E.2285E460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Paul wrote..

My point was
that present rise in temperatures will
be a drop = in the=20 bucket with global "free energy"
unless we develop FRE (Free = Recyclable=20
Energy) machines.  IMHO the idea of personal and
portable = ZPE, cold=20 fusion, etc. devices
is suicidal.

Howdy Paul,

Not to worry, hide and watch the scene unfold. Imagine a gravy train = with=20 biscuit wheels( the world economy).. The train doesn't fly off the track = on a=20 tight curve, It doens't crash into another train, it doesn't collapse a=20 bridge....

The biscuit wheels get soggy from the gravy and slowly sinks into the = track=20 and rolls over on it's side. No noise, no shouting, just a few watching = with=20 awe..

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7357E.2285E460-- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7357E.2285E460 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000b01c735b0$6d141f60$1f027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7357E.2285E460-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 12:10:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0BI0Fun009060; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:50:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0BHZa1Q025931; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 09:35:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 09:35:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20070111173322.87795.qmail@web62405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=nQJHRndcGPj60hRkyKGQB9ldciKeZ764pVZIV0+hiGrT3qDqYo4wVUVPZz5PLdhsOApZrzlZSY/vcM+8smkl3RhEaShGHpF3uJwU/sLyRfN5TsCdJ/Lg2Xvz8oMlEFlC37HIcwyieHMOrHxR2gd+DDKyvIsnENQwO7/qVo7rQxk=; X-YMail-OSG: T3YEr6MVM1mSwnBHg9U31TkzzZANtJYx6HtK7PLaICvOIBcv9QhlY6ScPeunsLRQmEyYjKG0ppaVPGR6UOl1Y4TFP7mm1_c087gh3ZQCB2JmlpSrOKaYHbL.H41.ynttSwbmung3VELSLjKDfjmV6o58 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 09:33:22 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71972 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: [snip] > Also, I don't think many women will change > their clothes more than ten times a day just because clothes will be > cheap and easily cleaned and repaired by robotic menders. Actually I think a better analogy would be self-programmable clothing; i.e., clothing that can change color, design, etc. at the push of a button. :-) This would be high-tech clothing. I think a lot of people would turn such clothing into a form of art. Perhaps clothing that automatically changes depending upon the owner's mood, sort of like a mood ring. Clothing could be like a desktop, lol. Although such high-tech clothing would require energy. Who knows, but both analogies seem inaccurate. Lets face it, energy is valuable, powerful, versatile, and unmatched. If it is free & unlimited then people will go hog wild using mass amounts of energy. I don't think "free energy" stops at free water (air wells) or free prospecting (extracting valuable minerals from oceans and mountains). There was a gentleman who found a process of creating boards and walls for housing construction from seawater. Although it required significant energy. Energy seems to be the most versatile form with endless possibilities. "Free energy" will explode in usage. > I believe that the diode array is the most practical energy recycling > device. I would prefer calling it Cheap Recycled Energy because cheap is > easier to support than free. I think people misunderstand what the term "free energy" means. It has nothing to do with the cost of buying or maintaining the machine. It refers to the fact that the actual energy is and should be free. IOW, nature will not bill you. As for maintenance, there's not theoretical limit. It is possible to build a self-healing/repairing machine, but such an ideal is undesirable under capitalism. Ugg, capitalism. When is humanity going to grow past the need for the "me me me" stage? In all fairness here is humanities evolution --> Average definition of "family" : 1. Ardipithecus ramidus. Family constitutes only the self, and to a small degree others. 2. Homo erectus. Family constitutes self, and to a less degree the mate, children, and to a small degree others. 3. Homo sapiens, modern. Family constitutes self, mate, and children. To a somewhat lesser degree parents, brothers, sisters. To a lesser degree close relatives and friends. To a significantly lesser degree other people. 4. Homo sapiens, near future. Family constitutes the entire world of people, and to a lesser degree the animal and plant kingdom. 5. Homo sapiens, far future. Family constitutes all beings. :-))) Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 13:10:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0BJoEKI021195; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:51:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0BJoCJD021156; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:50:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:50:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070111144108.03e29de0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:47:52 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE In-Reply-To: <896795.81996.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <896795.81996.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71974 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: >This creates temperature gradients. My point was that present rise >in temperatures will be a drop in the bucket with global "free >energy" unless we develop FRE (Free Recyclable Energy) machines. You are assuming that people will act irresponsibly, and ignore clear & present dangers. People sometimes do that, but not always. > IMHO the idea of personal and portable ZPE, cold fusion, etc. > devices is suicidal. I do not buy this argument, which Rifkin called "giving a baby a machine gun." As I pointed out in my book, chapter 19 (where I quoted Rifkin): ". . . [W]e can easily destroy the earth with the technology we already have. We do not need cold fusion, nuclear bombs or any advanced technology. We are using fire, man's oldest tool, to destroy the rain forests. The ancient Chinese, Greeks and Romans deforested large areas and turned millions of hectares of productive cropland into desert. The destructive side effects of technology in 2000 BC were as bad as they are today." - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 13:31:00 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0BKB0L0018656; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:12:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0BKAwih018637; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:10:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:10:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:07:51 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE In-reply-to: <896795.81996.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <1T6O-.A.JjE.SnppFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71976 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > > You're correct in that pollution is obviously by far > the worst. Although you're thinking > in terms of averaging and spreading the energy > humanity contributes over the entire > planet. It's a little more complex than that, as > humanity tends to gather in groups > forming large cities. We can detect temperature > changes during traffic hours near cities. > This creates temperature gradients. My point was > that present rise in temperatures will > be a drop in the bucket with global "free energy" > unless we develop FRE (Free Recyclable > Energy) machines. IMHO the idea of personal and > portable ZPE, cold fusion, etc. devices > is suicidal. > I am intrigued by the notion of recycled heat. However, your prejudice against free energy systems is based on the assumption that they work by producing heat rather than recycling heat. If they are in fact producing heat, such systems would be suicidal. But no one as yet can really explain how these systems do what they do. I personally think it is time to reconsider the discredited caloric conception of heat. I am not suggesting the caloric theory of heat is a completely satisfactory theory of heat, but I am suggesting the kinetic theory of heat isn't completely satisfactory. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 14:40:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0BLKRwb001072; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:21:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0BLKPTM001047; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:20:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:20:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:17:14 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE In-reply-to: <000c01c735b9$995588d0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71977 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > Methinks Paul is still missing the point. Robin correctly points out that > the sun's daily input of energy to the earth is 10,000 times what man's use > is. Our direct use of energy is trivial. It is the blocking of radiant heat > escaping the earth by the ***accumulated*** greenhouse gases that is our > contribution to global warming. You burn a tankful of gasoline and its > direct contribution to warming is un-measurable, but the effect of the CO2 > produced will continue for perhaps thousands of years, each day contributing > to the blockage of cooling of the earth by radiation. Heat production may be trivial today, but that may change in the future. After all humanity now produces 10,000 times more heat than it did centuries ago. Is it not possible that in the centuries to come, humanity might be producing 10,000 times more heat than today? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 15:19:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0BM09U2000944; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:01:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0BJolFT012388; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:50:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:50:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000c01c735b9$995588d0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <896795.81996.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:49:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71975 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Methinks Paul is still missing the point. Robin correctly points out that the sun's daily input of energy to the earth is 10,000 times what man's use is. Our direct use of energy is trivial. It is the blocking of radiant heat escaping the earth by the ***accumulated*** greenhouse gases that is our contribution to global warming. You burn a tankful of gasoline and its direct contribution to warming is un-measurable, but the effect of the CO2 produced will continue for perhaps thousands of years, each day contributing to the blockage of cooling of the earth by radiation. Non-polluting sources such as wind, solar, nuclear, hydroelectric, blacklight power, cold fusion and others do not contribute to trapping the sun's energy and can be safely used even if the total output by future mankind is manyfold what we now do. Paul's idea of a 'heat pump' required that heat be dumped someplace off earth, which is handily done each clear night as the earth radiates heat into deep space. "Free recyclable energy" is not well defined. Wind, Solar, and Hydro extract energy from that which the sun has already given earth, but will not satisfy all human needs. It is not 'free' in the sense that human effort is necessary to produce the collection, storage and distribution systems, and these people need to be adequately compensated for their effort [a large part of your utility bill pays off the bondholders who lent the money for the construction of the power plant and distribution infrastructure]. A point Paul is overlooking is that CF and BLP devices, when commercialized, will liberate mankind from the political and economic system which exerts control by controlling the sources of energy. There is no viable ZPE device on the horizon. There are many tasks important to the survival and comfort of a wold population of 10 billion, which we are approaching, which can safely be tackled only by new energy soruces -- desalinaiton of sea water on a massive scale, reconcentration [recycling] of mineral resources dispersed by manufacture and use, etc. Mike Carrell ----------------------------------- > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Wed, 10 Jan > 2007 15:56:07 -0500: > > Hi, > > [snip] > >>> costly at present. Can you imagine if energy were > free > >>> whereby billions of people, > >>> millions of vehicles, homes, businesses, etc. > etc. are > >>> ***adding*** energy?!?! It will > >>> kill this planet! > >> Some of the "free" energy could be used to operate > some sort > >> of global heat pump system to ensure the biosphere > does not get > >> too warm. > >> > >> Consequently the price of free energy is the cost > of keeping > >> the planet cool. > > > > Most of human contribution to global warming is as > a consequence of greenhouse > > gasses. This is considerably larger than our actual > contribution in terms of > > thermal energy. By converting to CF globally, we > would eliminate the greenhouse > > gas contribution. In the near term, our > contribution to thermal energy would be > > minimal. The Sun supplies 10000 times more power > than we currently use, so our > > actual contribution is insignificant. > > You're correct in that pollution is obviously by far > the worst. Although you're thinking > in terms of averaging and spreading the energy > humanity contributes over the entire > planet. It's a little more complex than that, as > humanity tends to gather in groups > forming large cities. We can detect temperature > changes during traffic hours near cities. > This creates temperature gradients. My point was > that present rise in temperatures will > be a drop in the bucket with global "free energy" > unless we develop FRE (Free Recyclable > Energy) machines. IMHO the idea of personal and > portable ZPE, cold fusion, etc. devices > is suicidal. > > > Regards, > Paul > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 15:21:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0BM23FG019986; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:03:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0BM21OK019965; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:02:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:02:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=dW0sJM1Xou3VN5Xx+RZ9zhajdAGwK479CyLb9ZUwXNW5LA2Zh8z+snPWzdS69DPt9Uil5xlda64KFG2/qT1PWEjraZegQALJudTIxvyq0Cf/HnKFKm795689fTZERLl8AAWTaV4g70cPJtZotvuV9MYF/cQ8XLeGsehk2tBby6A=; X-YMail-OSG: 3RerpW8VM1mOfmKZFTE3jjJbmE8JzGY2GP99oYCvLPwk0KMS6q0rEliIqbnLslmWPw-- Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:00:39 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <677395.48820.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71978 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Paul wrote: > >> This creates temperature gradients. My point was that present rise in >> temperatures will be a drop in the bucket with global "free energy" >> unless we develop FRE (Free Recyclable Energy) machines. > > You are assuming that people will act irresponsibly, and ignore clear & > present dangers. People sometimes do that, but not always. All human behavior studies I've seen have demonstrate people in modern society usually hoard *if* they can get away with it. >> IMHO the idea of personal and portable ZPE, cold fusion, etc. >> devices is suicidal. > > I do not buy this argument, which Rifkin called "giving a baby a machine > gun." As I pointed out in my book, chapter 19 (where I quoted Rifkin): > > ". . . [W]e can easily destroy the earth with the technology we already > have. We do not need cold fusion, nuclear bombs or any advanced > technology. We are using fire, man's oldest tool, to destroy the rain > forests. The ancient Chinese, Greeks and Romans deforested large areas > and turned millions of hectares of productive cropland into desert. The > destructive side effects of technology in 2000 BC were as bad as they > are today." Don't you think that's a poor analogy? Most people have conscience, but it seems most people are masters at mentally & emotionally blocking what they don't fancy. For example, often people will eat something that is unhealthy, but somehow find a means of justify the action. Such actions are based on fuzzy logic; i.e., emotions over powering coherent concrete mental thoughts. Desires are emotions. Most people have no *desire* to set a forest on fire. Although there are disturbed individuals who would get an emotional rush from such an act, which could be the cause of some forest fires. On the other hand, most people have much to gain by "free energy." Such a temptation could be difficult to overcome unless there were a law governing how much "free energy" one could use. Would the governments place such a law? LOL, don't count on it. For a century automobiles have generated pollution. Has any government placed a limitation how many miles per month you can drive? The answer is simple. Humanity in totality is still a teenager, on the verge of becoming an adult. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 16:13:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0BMsC4o011612; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:55:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0BMs7WX011552; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:54:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:54:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001e01c735d3$2eb146d0$c89d163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <20070111173322.87795.qmail@web62405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:52:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71979 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE > Ugg, > capitalism. When is humanity going to grow > past the need for the "me me me" stage? In all > fairness here is humanities evolution --> Capitalism isn't perfect, and I am not in support of uncontrolled capitalism (which is not a free market, it is letting the big sharks eat the little fish), but what do you expect to use as an alternative? Communism sure worked wonders in the USSR. And China, it really works well there, where you can make $30/week working only 12hrs/day, 7 days/week. I agree we need something better than the current thing, where big business is killing progress, but how do we do it, and without crushing the "little guys" in the process? > 3. Homo sapiens, modern. Family constitutes self, > mate, and children. To a somewhat lesser > degree parents, brothers, sisters. To a lesser degree > close relatives and friends. To a > significantly lesser degree other people. Well where do I fit in? "Significantly lesser degree?" You cannot read my mind, you do not know what I do or how deeply I care for those around me, particularly those who are hurting. People I don't even know. I worry about those people every day. Sweeping generalizations are something like zero-tolerance policies: not especially useful. I have almost no immediate family, or should I put it, almost none worth talking to. In my case, the "other people" are generally cared for by me more than most family members. If your point 3 *is* generally correct, then I am more alone than I thought before. Which is pretty bad. > 4. Homo sapiens, near future. Family constitutes the > entire world of people, and to a > lesser degree the animal and plant kingdom. What do we eat? > 5. Homo sapiens, far future. Family constitutes all > beings. :-))) I wish Pellegrino and Zebrowski were here to argue that one with you ;) I somehow doubt the "big galactic family" exists, or will, without someone dominating and setting policy. Or look at it another way: even in a happy family, someone is in charge. Just my $1.02, inflation adjusted. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 16:21:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0BN1u6g017280; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:03:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0BN1sLW017255; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:01:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:01:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070111175052.03f04400@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:00:21 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71981 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Another Google Video about cold fusion Status: O X-Status: See: "Phenomenon Archives: Heavy Watergate, The War Against Cold Fusion" This is mainly composed of clips from "Fire from Water." It is kind of an angry version of "Fire from Water." http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2229511748333360205&q=cold+fusion Duration: 46 minutes Views: 15,925 - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 17:19:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0C006dd028092; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:01:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0BMvkYo028161; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:57:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:57:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070111174806.03ed7740@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:53:15 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c735b9$995588d0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71980 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >Heat production may be trivial today, but that may change in the future. It is not trivial today. It is already a problem. I do not think it will become as bad a problem as Paul predicts, even with cold fusion. >After all humanity now produces 10,000 times more heat than it did centuries >ago. Is it not possible that in the centuries to come, humanity might be >producing 10,000 times more heat than today? We covered this topic here several times, and I covered it in the book. I recommend that energy intense manufacturing be conducted off planet in the distant future. Products should be brought to earth via a network of space elevators, and shipped via relatively slow (low energy, subsonic) transport. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 18:01:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0C0ft6Q012712; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:43:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0C0fsQb012702; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:41:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:41:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=kZIyMCim3Z+5x0kW+RqatosIjq9Loc2jiZgx+MNPJ9ru+2C7oPm+qw4qC/o7zv6vnudsZI2UNBsW9IQkBRO41OQ1nlF1qZZmK/oQD78vTNIYDb6aHvg1rLzSkpANA/jL3leDDsm4kE1PIyN3yQf3PRiKeI3SC6qOVsQ9JBHFcAY=; X-YMail-OSG: LJisy2kVM1l1LmhqMLkIQMnCVRmCEEg5jheQss7VTqHt2dLgyzoEIOMjunXTKaBjAXQDkQyz2P_mcNuTHazWQY3rZAKaVekbgElGTNJ_i4K46oKdZZMrhswitAQX.PLmqaOSAK2HdI_7MvsWaVtFFv60sBdVDTS_zgo77NMxpmN9LeXNVubI.SIZjB8TNo89totGVw-- Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:40:31 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <865500.9001.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71982 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > > > Mike Carrell wrote: > >> Methinks Paul is still missing the point. Robin correctly points out that >> the sun's daily input of energy to the earth is 10,000 times what man's use >> is. Our direct use of energy is trivial. It is the blocking of radiant heat >> escaping the earth by the ***accumulated*** greenhouse gases that is our >> contribution to global warming. You burn a tankful of gasoline and its >> direct contribution to warming is un-measurable, but the effect of the CO2 >> produced will continue for perhaps thousands of years, each day contributing >> to the blockage of cooling of the earth by radiation. > > Heat production may be trivial today, but that may change in the future. > After all humanity now produces 10,000 times more heat than it did centuries > ago. Is it not possible that in the centuries to come, humanity might be > producing 10,000 times more heat than today? > > Harry I think Harry sees the depth of the issue. First let me say we cannot compare the Sun's energy effect on Earth to humanities effect. Humanities machines are not millions of miles in space like the Sun, as they are mostly focused in areas called cities. Yes, of course the Sun pumps 10000 times more energy to Earth, but it is natural and stabilized ... until lately. The energy generated by humanity is focused in hot spots, which is why we can measure temperature increases during traffic time alone. IOW, the Sun's energy that affects Earth falls on half the planet at any given moment, which is not focused. As Harry clearly understood, the future energy production will increase exponentially if people have "free energy." Why would a scientist put forth so much effort in building a machine that *adds* energy when it is far easier to build a machine that *moves* ambient energy? Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 18:13:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0C0rokY015581; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:55:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0C0rnFM015563; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:53:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:53:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Reply-To: From: "Craig Haynie" To: Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:51:53 -0600 Message-ID: <004201c735e3$da6bba90$0200a8c0@Craig> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070111175052.03f04400@mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71983 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Another Variant of Cold Fusion Status: O X-Status: Have you all seen this? Have I just not been paying attention? http://www.science.edu/TechoftheYear/TechoftheYear.htm Craig Haynie Houston From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 19:08:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0C1mgig002226; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:50:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0C1mfAI002213; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:48:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:48:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Se/RGEPcsFrcPGwUUEa90ohwiGxd/qMiUKztXa8aaVhImyt+UjurwHbceTikT0apNm6ys3s3PwEkdN/2tm9w5rhMsFrgFdomxfugYGlCcOGSct+/OQAsUH0/n/ecVfXOGBCtqyVdjIwYUCmbFFx6Zg+29FUb4F5gGSP8TZRH+EE= ; Message-ID: <20070112014841.37301.qmail@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:48:41 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Another Variant of Cold Fusion To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1719692406-1168566521=:37240" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71985 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --0-1719692406-1168566521=:37240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Craig Haynie=0A=0A> Have you all seen t= his? Have I just not been paying attention?=0A=0A=0AHa... you were the one = looking at the Penthouse centerfold instead =0A=0A... eight hits for th= at ol' buzzard in the Vo archives last year:=0A=0Ahttp://www.mail-archi= ve.com/search?l=3Dvortex-l%40eskimo.com&q=3DBussard++=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-1719692406-1168566521=:37240 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original Message ----
From: Craig Haynie
=
> Have you all seen this? Have I just not been paying attention?
=

Ha... you were the one looking at the Penthouse centerfold instead = <g>

... eight hits for that ol' buzzard <g> in the Vo a= rchives last year:

http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=3Dvortex-l%40eskimo.com&q= =3DBussard++



--0-1719692406-1168566521=:37240-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 20:01:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0C2e1l9012307; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:42:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0C1ZU9C030194; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:35:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:35:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=xW5uGQTbjy1lU0GnmqKG4vmMbp5QspRMIv6e2pffULf108puRs3+/XuU4Qhv18zQihZIKtVZnToAzljZ4s/sF+Wt+GwgywNo8ZK5uVtaU9WYGY8aZTnDvu2pf14KQ8bZDh+lJrLw8r0JwhSIUmHbfuQleh6JJ/zgKn0Nn7VUvv0=; X-YMail-OSG: ccur.MYVM1nFzpZRBSy3FTAZe7gC.FpVbOFtTUQZ Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:34:08 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <138966.71754.qm@web62405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71984 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 12:33 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE > > >> Ugg, >> capitalism. When is humanity going to grow >> past the need for the "me me me" stage? In all >> fairness here is humanities evolution --> > > Capitalism isn't perfect, and I am not in support of uncontrolled > capitalism (which is not a free market, it is letting the big sharks eat > the little fish), but what do you expect to use as an alternative? Well, as I said, "When is humanity going to grow past the ***need*** for the 'me me me' stage?" Key word is "need." I'm not suggesting capitalism is or was of no use. What happens when a child grows up completely deprived of television, junk food, pornography, etc. and then suddenly moves out to meet the real world of such temptations? The poor Middle Eastern parents across the street found out. Their daughter and sons are now sex crazed in a modern society. People learn from pain and bad experiences. The point is, perhaps capitalism offered some real growth for the modern world. So you ask, "what do you expect to use as an alternative?" There is no alternative for the *present.* An idealistic society will only work when nearly 100% of the people are of an extremely positive mentality. When you can place an open box containing $100,000 on your front lawn, come back next month and expect the money to still be their, then perhaps humanity is ready for adulthood. Until then, capitalism will be the best option. Hopefully in the next several decades idealist methods of sharing such as GPL will dominate and evolve to something wonderful. [snip] > Well where do I fit in? "Significantly lesser degree?" You cannot read > my mind, you do not know what I do or how deeply I care for those around > me, particularly those who are hurting. That's why it was titled, " Average definition of 'family'" Key word, *average*. > I worry about those people every day. Sweeping generalizations are > something like zero-tolerance policies: not especially useful. Ask such a person who has a grown up daughter if they would take them on board in their home if the daughter lost her job and had difficulty finding another job? I cannot imagine any parent saying "No!" Then ask such a parent if they would do the same for that homeless person begging on the street for food and work? Some people have evolved past stage 3 and dedicate their life to helping the world, but most have not. > I have almost no immediate family, or should I put it, almost none worth > talking to. In my case, the "other people" are generally cared for by me > more than most family members. If your point 3 *is* generally correct, > then I am more alone than I thought before. Which is pretty bad. Again, this is not about Kyle R. Mcallister. It is about the average person. >> 4. Homo sapiens, near future. Family constitutes the >> entire world of people, and to a >> lesser degree the animal and plant kingdom. > > What do we eat? Plenty, when science evolves to the degree it is a blessing. For now there are other options. There are a lot of people who eat nuts, seeds, fruit, etc. Does it kill a plant to pick the fruit? This is all moot since our science has not reached the degree of healthy synthesized foods. >> 5. Homo sapiens, far future. Family constitutes all >> beings. :-))) > > I wish Pellegrino and Zebrowski were here to argue that one with you ;) > I somehow doubt the "big galactic family" exists, or will, without > someone dominating and setting policy. Or look at it another way: even > in a happy family, someone is in charge. Do you really think there was a beginning? If so, then what created that beginning? Sciences will continue to evolve and change. For now they are pondering if time began with the big bang, but at the same time they theorize with M-theory there are countless big bangs. IMHO it seems a given that existence has always existed. For anyone who missed it, that would infinity, a concept no human can comprehend. Infinity, as in without *any* beginning. Don't you think some orderliness would have formed in infinite time, LOL? Again, infinity as in no beginning. Regards, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 20:24:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0C35Xb1023870; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 19:06:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0C35Vxb023826; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 19:05:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 19:05:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [124.191.197.234] X-Originating-Email: [dean_mcgowan@hotmail.com] X-Sender: dean_mcgowan@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <004201c735e3$da6bba90$0200a8c0@Craig> From: "Dean McGowan" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Another Variant of Cold Fusion Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:03:09 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jan 2007 03:03:12.0583 (UTC) FILETIME=[32524D70:01C735F6] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71986 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606 Regards, Dean McGowan ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Craig Haynie" Reply-To: To: Subject: [Vo]: Another Variant of Cold Fusion Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:51:53 -0600 Have you all seen this? Have I just not been paying attention? http://www.science.edu/TechoftheYear/TechoftheYear.htm Craig Haynie Houston From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 21:29:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0C49HYu020313; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 20:10:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0C49Fq0020290; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 20:09:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 20:09:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAKuYpkXLrQI1UGdsb2JhbAANjSYBASo X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,175,1167580800"; d="scan'208"; a="110496398:sNHT36121950" Message-ID: <45A70991.4090007@iinet.net.au> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:07:45 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: References: <45A4AD79.4030206@iinet.net.au> In-Reply-To: <45A4AD79.4030206@iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71987 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wesley Bruce wrote: > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> In reply to Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.'s message of Tue, 26 Dec 2006 >> 19:33:32 -0700: >> Hi, >> [snip] >> >> >>> Some half-baked ideas from memory on previous lists (somewhat >>> jocularly): >>> >>> Buying cheap land under high tension power lines. >>> Selling energy stocks ( and the many subsidiary industry stocks) short. >>> Starting filling station remodeling companies. >>> Buying Neodymium (The Chinese have already cornered that market :-( ). >>> Making retrofit car engines. >>> Inventing heat dissipation technology for portable devices. >>> Selling road and sidewalk heaters to melt snow in north east cities. >>> Build perpetual hot air balloons. >>> Selling power back to the power companies (~US$60.00 per day for a >>> residential generator unit). >>> Desalination plants. >>> No more concern for energy efficiency in homes, vehicles -- the end >>> of the >>> insulation business. >>> No more interest in the middle east at all -- let them go their own >>> way. >>> Extracting gold from sea water. >>> Making gasoline from air and water. >>> Disinfecting drinking and pool water by boiling it. >>> Selling scrap power plant parts. >>> Dismantling wind farms and hydro plants. >>> Replace broadcast antenna towers with perpetually hovering helicopters. >>> Completely new airplane designs where no fuel has to be onboard, and >>> efficiency doesn't matter. >>> Self heating soup cans. >>> Self cooling soft drink cans. >>> Car air conditioners and heaters that are on all the time. >>> Send your car up into the air ( hot air balloon or helicopter rotor) or >>> around the block 'til you call it back -- no parking places needed. >>> Buildings supported by compressed air (should be more immune to >>> earthquakes >>> as well as cheaper). >>> >> >> >> They are worse than half-baked, they are suicidal. Let's hope that >> humanity has >> enough sense to avoid such stupidity. We currently have a global warming >> problem, *at least* partially driven by the greenhouse effect. While >> FE would >> solve that problem, extreme profligate waste will create a new >> problem of direct >> heat overload. It is therefore imperative that efficiency measures be >> continued >> along with the introduction of FE. >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> >> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> >> Competition provides the motivation, >> Cooperation provides the means. >> >> >> > You folk's need to read the old fusion facts papers on cold fusion the > planetary heating proble was dealt with a decade and a half ago by Hal > Fox et al. > oups never write at 3 am when you have dyslexia. lol That should read: You folk's need to read the old fusion facts papers on cold fusion. The planetary heating problem was dealt with a decade and a half ago by Hal Fox et al. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 23:30:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0C6A3co005750; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:12:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0C57ucv014227; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 21:07:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 21:07:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=rd6sv9d3cFDmRq5OmGb7UUwtRQpH+oLjmUFRD5gGWSQrnx4uDuNL25o85F8DL1CcF1b5fy7i4EFJnGnjrG7gERAKiIWiPEpG64O56s4Xy23ehavcSIWsCa/cYionzAXXZUvSvPtndqILvZlLFnldCoDHwShdVZ6H40sKjvO3jtY= ; X-YMail-OSG: bZQN9EUVM1kOHjcPrGV9x44N93zFHqP8hrNqWUGaGlNKw49Gnlm7hvtvp87d4RGgcXeDFPBNHDDcIPYPv9cFdQnB6ZEnTiz_MW0LzC2_8TJv88JU4Bmqm4X05CSKvjVKr3xpF4bgXRlprLU- Message-ID: <45A717B1.4000600@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 21:08:01 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71988 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Comet Status: O X-Status: Anyone been able to see the new comet (McNaught)? http://www.spaceweather.com/ Brightest in 30 years or more... some Vids are on YouTube From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 00:06:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0C6kSKf020477; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:47:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0C6kPkG020446; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:46:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:46:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 01:43:44 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE In-reply-to: <865500.9001.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <0P57VD.A.a_E.A7ypFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71989 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > As Harry clearly understood, the future energy > production will increase exponentially if > people have "free energy." That is not exactly what I meant. Regardless of whether energy is "free" or not in the future, if heat production continues to grow at the current rate humanity will become non-trivial producers of heat. > Why would a scientist put forth so much effort in > building a machine that *adds* energy > when it is far easier to build a machine that *moves* > ambient energy? If we only build the sorts of devices you are proposing then, if too much ambient energy is *moved* into the motion of vehicles and machines, we might be at risk of a global cooling. What we need is a new philosophy of energy which subsumes the laws of thermodynamics. Perhaps an ecology of energy... Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 00:36:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0C7HAqW031744; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:18:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0C7H9LR031720; Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:17:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:17:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 02:14:29 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070111174806.03ed7740@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71990 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Heat production may be trivial today, but that may change in the future. > > It is not trivial today. It is already a problem. I do not think it > will become as bad a problem as Paul predicts, even with cold fusion. > > >> After all humanity now produces 10,000 times more heat than it did centuries >> ago. Is it not possible that in the centuries to come, humanity might be >> producing 10,000 times more heat than today? > > We covered this topic here several times, and I covered it in the > book. I recommend that energy intense manufacturing be conducted off > planet in the distant future. Products should be brought to earth via > a network of space elevators, and shipped via relatively slow (low > energy, subsonic) transport. > > - Jed Ok. The salient point of this discussion is that even if humanity NEVER produced green house gases, it is reasonable to assume, all other things being equal, that if heat production becomes large enough the average global temperature would indeed rise. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 04:46:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CBQvjr026331; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:28:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CBQtLg026314; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:26:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:26:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <18a201c7363c$5d5c5ba0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:25:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0CBPWDv025866 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71991 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, let's work it out. Your scenario of mankind dissipating through cheap nuclear processes 10,000 times more heat than their current energy use 10^18 J/day would mean doubling roughly the Earth's present 10^22 J/day radiated power (almost 100% solar presently). Black body radiated power P goes as T to the power 4 (cf e.g.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body ) so T goes as P to the power 1/4. Therefore if P is doubled, T is multiplied by 2^(1/4) = 1.2, which takes us from our present ~300K to ~360K. That's a 60°C global warming if I am not mistaken. If a means to eliminate excess heat more efficiently than passive radiation is not found then unlimited power generation will be very dangerous indeed! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> Harry Veeder wrote: >> >>> Heat production may be trivial today, but that may change in the future. >> >> It is not trivial today. It is already a problem. I do not think it >> will become as bad a problem as Paul predicts, even with cold fusion. >> >> >>> After all humanity now produces 10,000 times more heat than it did centuries >>> ago. Is it not possible that in the centuries to come, humanity might be >>> producing 10,000 times more heat than today? >> >> We covered this topic here several times, and I covered it in the >> book. I recommend that energy intense manufacturing be conducted off >> planet in the distant future. Products should be brought to earth via >> a network of space elevators, and shipped via relatively slow (low >> energy, subsonic) transport. >> >> - Jed > > > Ok. The salient point of this discussion is that even if humanity > NEVER produced green house gases, it is reasonable to assume, all other > things being equal, that if heat production becomes large enough the average > global temperature would indeed rise. > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 07:24:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CE3HXK012736; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:05:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CCpcEl006172; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 04:51:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 04:51:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:49:28 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71992 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: recycled energy is benign Status: O X-Status: The formula for entropy treats heat as caloric fluid which wrongly ignores how thermal kinetic fluctuations become significant at the nanometer scale. Reality should prevail and the entropy formula corrected. The next objection is that a system will not know how to use thermal fluctuations without expending more energy in detecting or responding to the energy than such exploitation produces. This is an empty objection; systems that operate autonomously can simply use the thermal fluctuations without keeping energ consuming records of it. benign Jeremy Rifkin wrote a book on how entropy limits human progress. I don't believe entropy is a useful concept. Diode array powered vehicles will not cool the world; heat release from operating friction and electrical inefficiencies equals the heat absorption of the diode array producing propulsion power. A settlement of people with family aircars would not need vehicular roads. Roads have ecological consequences. Cheap recycled energy would provide the power for background simulating invisibility cloaks. A creative virtuous circle with cheap energy leads to robotic heatsink cleaning robots that lower the costs further. Time to call for applications engineering. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 07:41:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CELJpF027338; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:22:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CELGCi027314; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:21:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:21:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:20:58 -0500 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: fznidarsic@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8C9046C03D22B6C_904_C94_FWM-M09.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL WebMail 22250 Message-Id: <8C9046C03D48DC4-904-6A4@FWM-M09.sysops.aol.com> X-AOL-IP: 64.12.168.73 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71993 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: ball lightning made Status: O X-Status: ----------MB_8C9046C03D22B6C_904_C94_FWM-M09.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19325863.500-lightning-balls-created-in-the-lab.html Frank Z ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ----------MB_8C9046C03D22B6C_904_C94_FWM-M09.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
 
 
 
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----------MB_8C9046C03D22B6C_904_C94_FWM-M09.sysops.aol.com-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 09:07:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CFlwQR011998; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 07:49:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CFltIr011976; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 07:47:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 07:47:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=L5c3lUA6KM3eiscgRUpJVhuqXoJ5hb6fiIOKV3559+TqGERuqwQ7j32cb+Zutb570grFtgvDtkSgSeWnvIeRwJ67iy6sd/hnZp2gR33hz8yxn+XXKMAr2m4Vy3q48manQ+ODiBgdvFxds6FgMwTXx353M6GsEcbbaYqnTTmJPxI=; X-YMail-OSG: cXMbbTcVM1l3IOMMEuj3_KUkKH1zJb4vKkL17P3DeuRbayeG5gJeXpKN80T2QTU440N6k76lbcowsvFnEEx.mRyCEuGrE4..2obxKHL423JAj4YaEn8BEjgAvT5onVceNUOTdM2IDiQvgTe8C5eObz1D Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 07:46:30 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <195041.17771.qm@web62409.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71995 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Well, let's work it out. Your scenario of mankind dissipating through cheap nuclear processes 10,000 times more heat than their current energy use 10^18 J/day would mean doubling roughly the Earth's present 10^22 J/day radiated power (almost 100% solar presently). > > Black body radiated power P goes as T to the power 4 (cf e.g.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_body ) so T goes as P to the power 1/4. > > Therefore if P is doubled, T is multiplied by 2^(1/4) = 1.2, which takes us from our present ~300K to ~360K. > > That's a 60°C global warming if I am not mistaken. If a means to eliminate excess heat more efficiently than passive radiation is not found then unlimited power generation will be very dangerous indeed! > > Michel Also it moves the peak blackbody radiation wavenumber from 528 cm-1 to 666 cm-1. Nice number, lol. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 09:39:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CGK4xU024909; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 08:21:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CFHl6O000759; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 07:17:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 07:17:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=DNEcgR2tUKNXK4xB0I1FfaDj68cfrQ6jttkCTfvlQHfV61tjm+vN1VsvDJIawwJ2t3OTO1Jlqhc0P05O5b2G0eYcs9fJG+B5cunEuTMXwCoPtHbEgopfghA17uFkqxsmtC0oJMlzQqXLqMRX1WDA3OsLmPdbJ8DycchBzx1ZQzY=; X-YMail-OSG: wiFdfE0VM1lPZNiPG.c2Vy.R89JH_e4rEIeLqjnz3i7kkI.ZfzyQV1Kx47IxGRBK7Df4kK9Qcy_XCwtePMLBQdXAdt4.w8xDPQ.XvRXVP2i.n91xq6tkNECOSh6tbdWMX2REikEgS11CYN8Y_NTb5zKehQ3_wCMr1Y6Tb4d6JE6wuhrZalK6NbITyh_FMGg.hPb_QQ-- Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 07:16:25 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <956542.17595.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71994 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Paul wrote: > >> Harry Veeder wrote: > >> As Harry clearly understood, the future energy >> production will increase exponentially if >> people have "free energy." > > That is not exactly what I meant. > Regardless of whether energy is "free" or not > in the future, if heat production continues to grow > at the current rate humanity will become non-trivial > producers of heat. Sounds exactly what you said. Our rate of energy production is exponential. Given unlimited "free energy" such energy usage will explode worldwide. >> Why would a scientist put forth so much effort in >> building a machine that *adds* energy >> when it is far easier to build a machine that *moves* >> ambient energy? > > If we only build the sorts of devices you are proposing > then, if too much ambient energy is *moved* into the motion of vehicles > and machines, we might be at risk of a global cooling. It's called an energy *moving*, not an energy destroyer. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 10:03:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CGhuQI008821; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 08:45:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CGhj6a008732; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 08:43:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 08:43:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=T6aZUKP0wtHFZ5em0wJ7r/YMfn9cyEAfT9I4GkzEMsWIS8givgSsGmShBItRt9KYbnAOxwux9ZvXCUm1FW7qbg/VH8HVfnZQrgv0S0MlxxuLNGQvSx2tkcccJX3VT64F36Sp+qVAPRzOny9wx7e9NrN1UduOanQNu9Bzy+CGWQs=; X-YMail-OSG: jXJttSEVM1lCnuaru2lJ2bdVGD53W8h5JpCJP4RLsFVBoHJapCWjS8GKVUPzf9ianSxF658IwCyvZWlL.iDgdbTk.Yq7t.L5BbsLQSVDazrcupSkEUCWk3ih1t_Awtt3gJV3ZyQhaqfwfw-- Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 08:42:16 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <532239.66483.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71996 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Heat production may be trivial today, but that may change in the future. > > It is not trivial today. It is already a problem. I do not think it will > become as bad a problem as Paul predicts, even with cold fusion. Actually I only touched the surface by mentioning a few areas that will explode in energy usage. What about travel? I touched upon how personal air vehicles will soon become a reality when the computerized air traffic system is finalized. Hey family, you want to take a "FREE" weekend trip to Paris family? Sure, lets just hop in our car generated by "free energy." I for one would love to travel the world!! "Free energy" and the new computerized air system will open nationwide job opportunities. One who lives in Los Angeles could work in New York City!!! That's great! Sounds like an energy usage increase by tens of thousands. Want free water? No problem. Air wells have been around for over a decade. They just require mass amounts of energy, but who cares if energy is free. With "free energy" every home, business, and car will be maintained at a nice warm temperature all year long, which means either a heat or air conditioner will be operating. Air conditioners require a nice amount of energy. What about your outdoor pet? May as well keep their doghouse heated. What about light as a form of security? Why would a homeowner not light up their yard like a Christmas tree all night to deter thieves? I know for certain my parents would, and rightfully so if the energy is free. Most people turn lights off in unoccupied rooms. With "free energy" why bother? Just leave all the lights on all the time since a lighted room is far more appealing to most people. What about water faucets? Why brush your teeth with cold water when you can have nice hot water all the time. The same goes for heated toilet lids. What about heated shoes, pants, shirts, and a hat? Is it cold outside? No problem, you have heated clothing compliments of "free energy." :-) What about home decor? My Dad built a Koi pond with a small 6-inch waterfall. He wanted a large waterfall, but the energy usage is outrageous. So why not turn your backyard into paradise and build a 10-foot high water fall? After all it's "free energy." How nice would it be to relax near such a beautiful fall? What about front and back yard decorative colored lighting? There's only one person on my block to use such colored decorative lighting, and it looks great. What about high tech wallpapering? With "free energy" people could project a beautiful scene on their walls, or instantly change the wall color, like a Windows desktop, or even display a beautiful beachfront ocean scene with calm faint background sounds of oceans waves crashing on the beach. :-) Initially it will be wonderland of unimaginable new items from new hobbies to practical items and inventions springing up taking advantage of "free energy." IMHO without FRE it would eventually become a wasteland with extreme wicked weather and global changes. With FRE we could have such a wonderland. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 11:20:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CI1BbA016533; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:02:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CI1Ahi016517; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:01:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:01:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:58:52 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71998 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FRE air cooling releases energy Status: O X-Status: Air cooling releases energy in a FRE system. If people want too many yard lights balance it with energy producing ice skating rinks or build an enclosing tunnel - energy will cost a little after all - on a hill with snow machines and have a skiing rink that exports electricity. Let's stop being stpified in the dark and direct energy at will in balance. Some people, animals, and plants like dark nights so cheap light blocking walls holding vertical gardens may be built. Find a way to curb wet blanket lawyers ~ Cheap, fast, responsive medical teams. Gotta run. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 11:44:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CHe26H007004; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:25:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CHBAfs023563; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:11:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:11:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=SNjsbFBokZ2JMja2uakVl7m8BBoLzLLgSw5Yz4BdmVh6Kx5YR3gqCvIAYa3BbSPY/5MxzsEhU0wF9QLNJQsFJ3XJ+jmICselv2lHqmyBB6r0tVxEPRe+qzAFvF/j3BuJV5XxHCvG3yyBC92RHrRSb7jKYDxWe0jEZR+/Nv2ADK4= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:11:07 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: ball lightning made In-Reply-To: <8C9046C03D48DC4-904-6A4@FWM-M09.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <8C9046C03D48DC4-904-6A4@FWM-M09.sysops.aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <8UMtXC.A.GwF.uE8pFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71997 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/12/07, fznidarsic@aol.com wrote: > > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19325863.500-lightning-balls-created-in-the-lab.html Did you see the experimenter wearing sandals! Hotfoot! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 11:49:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CIT6vr003786; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:30:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CISvxP003709; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:28:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:28:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=bGYi4XTBHM0E4tnZ4J+QF+bp8UTjLXwTBjpvDji3tfSuKbVP2vjVsAp1caIYHGZ/qDpggM+f3HF4L1wL9TKrc4Hk2PIQtJwTbKoM9OO6psnXhEUUQteInpjQm3y1oVPI4L5QWygeY994Gx8xAgRciUHRwIUiuWnzNqpxiuuvjog= ; X-YMail-OSG: 0.lJfmUVM1mWj.J0jSxiHG8QojlLgSyhHE7d1h7e6upQ64DAPfqOqybyETgL7KVvqVW1uSOxjpwGO51wCuc.xF_dCtMC6zNx1zqD2JnsTvenmP..Yawnz0nufrnECL.bHci4fpzFgXMSdTAw7th7Tp.AmZgEi.7Tmq17K.3jCmaTX7TXqGuKRczwJU7h Message-ID: <45A7D360.3020500@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:28:48 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE References: <532239.66483.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <532239.66483.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/71999 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Actually I only touched the surface by mentioning a > few areas that will explode in energy > usage [big snip] Nice post, Paul. Your alarm is justified (if it encourages moderation) but your earlier end-game gloomy conclusion is the problem. You stopped at the maximum "bad news day": and did not see the paradigm shift on the horizon (in more ways than one, if you are a "Freeman" in the northern latitudes). The energy over-use situation, following any major R&D breakthrough, is somewhat reminiscent of computers in 1980 vs today: where the available supply (of cheap memory and CPU power) actually stimulated massive demand - and not the (traditionally) reversed situation of demand stimulating supply. Nowadays many individuals, including moi, require several hundred GB of data storage, which is probably as much as the Department of Energy had back then ... and for less cost today than many "executive lunches". In a couple of years the base level Dell will probably have the recently announced terabyte drive as standard equipment. The good news - in the computer-situation, and most-likely even in the energy situation, is that the end-game result will be a "tipping point" followed by surprising paradigm shift. With computers, that shift will be less surprising to most futurists and SciFi readers of course: AI. To be more specific, it will first appear as very cheap near-human artificial intelligence (what has been called the "son of x-box" device. For instance, in about 2010 you will buy an automobile which can carry on an witty conversation, know you like a book, and be "smarter" in many ways, then you are... easily capable of driving you home after one of those three-martini "executive lunches". What about energy, though? Ta-da ... The paradigm shift for energy may be more surprising - but will involve using the very same free-energy capability to actually cool the earth! Yes that's right. Ever hear of the "Dyson Sphere"? Before we get to the global catastrophe level, it is very likely that a simpler Dyson mylar "waistband" about 50 km wide but placed into earth orbit by thousands of robotic AI launches using cheap energy, around the equator, could easily cool the earth in sync with ever-growing energy consumption, and salvage our societal sin-of-gluttony ... AND at the same time, by focusing the blocked sunlight to other satellites, provide even MORE electrical energy beamed down in the form microwaves. As they say ... When the future gives you lemons, make lemonade ... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 12:39:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CJJNAD014442; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:20:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CJJLNZ014413; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:19:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:19:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=wH9NhaUb69yBjsZVpCHVZRrzXlxfftOq5v/sGbPFP9vfa7mrYU5YrMyZ6HV9oOsqRP1RfZi+7LJTUuCQ8aHwFPQ+KIky58zNS5v/ewRuU+H36CDK+IQSMN2ZBSj6Mr/BPylfGBRmODmhDAVdG+gok0vDjb4IjGGOSRwrLt07B6A= ; X-YMail-OSG: wV2GGm4VM1nEOoTYC0GWxI251h_GbEKBpxm4gyeKNTLWpZz89.w0aYv2Gip4R_GoZm_MlSe.CfJf5dEb9y1WtLxAUpVS81hvI4e4q6ZXexQWQoBZYXFxbLtegVvEKz2BgNuMw9UaGKPSoVY- Message-ID: <45A7DF33.5090207@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:19:15 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72000 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Acedmeic data on BD Status: O X-Status: I have been as guilty as anyone in choosing to quote relevant yield and efficiency data "at the high end" of a range - in order to promote a particular strongly-held conviction - in this case the advantages of biodiesel - specifically algoil to be grown from microalgae. Here is a more authoritative, conservative (more so than NREL)and carefully considered acedemic viewpoint on national (US) energy self-sufficiency, which is less gradiose than others have published - but still extraordinarily optimistic about this new technology- which is far and away more cost effective than wind, solar cells, geothermal or any other short-term ecologically sound solution. http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html Executive summary: A national commitment on Algoil would equate to $46.2 billion per year for all the required algae farms to yield all the oil feedstock necessary for the entire country. Compare that to the $100-150 billion the US spends each year just on purchasing crude oil from foreign countries, with all of that money leaving the US economy... Is the correct short-term solution a no-brainer or what ??? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 14:17:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CKv2bi014496; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:58:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CKuwHG014475; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:56:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:56:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=bzvDTjey0Q0M7iGKhbfT4q9ib9U4LkNPkSqd/uTuQALq+tHAtVqMPEw2XlYnm+0uYKLRV7KJuBnrdNMd6F6CX1NZ8cy4v0O6/K7uL/jOH8MVHs9oSiDrE3oWDPKFNJWzGuTu7Q9bFh9cjY3dkZauwFGEpJekkrDjveo5rwEK7DM= ; X-YMail-OSG: gTPh7DUVM1mCFAdJPzABzOlZLS6pvH8DXuThhsTc4pQ6XbLb4TV30Xg3BsqY2uXtMfdG8fYqbtXi78YxxhIH7WTBfCrexL8KtIt.Nwfotr_VxbTQf0r6zvEt51U9KAhqtxPV1Ch2cFdW38A- Message-ID: <45A7F613.3000800@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:56:51 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7ui_RD.A.AiD.ZY_pFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72003 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: RAW Gone Status: O X-Status: RIP RAW Say... you don't think the timing has anything to do with that comet thing, "Do" ya? ... the Joachimite three-step: Do re mi ? Nothing personal, but I hope that's "do re you" Terry Blanton wrote: > http://hostgator.rawilson.com/main.shtml > > "RAW Essence > January 11, 2007 > > Robert Anton Wilson Defies Medical Experts and leaves his body @4:50 > AM on binary date 01/11. > > All Hail Eris! > > On behalf of his children and those who cared for him, deepest love > and gratitude for the tremendous support and lovingness bestowed upon > us. > > (that's it from Bob's bedside at his fnord by the sea) > > RAW Memorial February 07 > date to be announced" > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 14:41:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CKe46R019878; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 13:22:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CK23xC032739; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:02:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:02:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=KOmfhQmlqswiPcZwQ0vEGzM74Ap08+BTRsod/ah0VkNbr2EvunOrV7sKaDQLMhZsPs9Z0Y+N6f0v2rDnLK1t9rNGs6rdFWLZXrSGRpqrf/3biUk9FfOaIkZ05t/lAksF5kv8LVP05TcjtghN8Azx+zWBSpEC3lkWzrs0lnXZTew= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:01:59 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <5krNIC.A.a_H.7k-pFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72001 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: RAW Gone Status: O X-Status: http://hostgator.rawilson.com/main.shtml "RAW Essence January 11, 2007 Robert Anton Wilson Defies Medical Experts and leaves his body @4:50 AM on binary date 01/11. All Hail Eris! On behalf of his children and those who cared for him, deepest love and gratitude for the tremendous support and lovingness bestowed upon us. (that's it from Bob's bedside at his fnord by the sea) RAW Memorial February 07 date to be announced" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 15:20:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CKo6FA026750; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:01:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CKlLKV022848; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:47:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:47:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=Zq/BfOb7642FUDe3gfyzv5IlROEg5U0FpldQPa4KbKOP38x/ytwzDPOS2QQHo8MDatkdboo+znVETH8Qrej3j7dkvkAjINjV+6L+ZVPlSXki/ciipBpRCilPQOVK5q6yoxFpwLHAPRf9R+CQR4P59FYVucrjT4QQulVGKWbdbn0=; X-YMail-OSG: y_ecgmAVM1kNcxLgKtunEC9jWG4vRau_CqHSCyKoV5RRNJoBGCVXstWynK831i4grSQHA64Uipc.pMpF4pF9XBAuAR.VtC6sSCHqaQvI_cPu3bSMHoMUXRdL6yYuX707rH.nf1HsWOLE.g.cYmXTuH5eNWYkOZj_Mwac5kzC43pprMxxJUY6SrgxHIniMZWeIIgtdA-- Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:45:58 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <229577.97368.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72002 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Paul wrote: > >> Actually I only touched the surface by mentioning a >> few areas that will explode in energy usage [big snip] > > > Nice post, Paul. Your alarm is justified (if it encourages moderation) > but your earlier end-game gloomy conclusion is the problem. You stopped > at the maximum "bad news day": and did not see the paradigm shift on the > horizon (in more ways than one, if you are a "Freeman" in the northern > latitudes). > > The energy over-use situation, following any major R&D breakthrough, is > somewhat reminiscent of computers in 1980 vs today: where the available > supply (of cheap memory and CPU power) actually stimulated massive > demand - and not the (traditionally) reversed situation of demand > stimulating supply. > > Nowadays many individuals, including moi, require several hundred GB of > data storage, which is probably as much as the Department of Energy had > back then ... and for less cost today than many "executive lunches". In > a couple of years the base level Dell will probably have the recently > announced terabyte drive as standard equipment. > > The good news - in the computer-situation, and most-likely even in the > energy situation, is that the end-game result will be a "tipping point" > followed by surprising paradigm shift. > > With computers, that shift will be less surprising to most futurists and > SciFi readers of course: AI. To be more specific, it will first appear > as very cheap near-human artificial intelligence (what has been called > the "son of x-box" device. For instance, in about 2010 you will buy an > automobile which can carry on an witty conversation, know you like a > book, and be "smarter" in many ways, then you are... easily capable of > driving you home after one of those three-martini "executive lunches". > > What about energy, though? Ta-da ... > > The paradigm shift for energy may be more surprising - but will involve > using the very same free-energy capability to actually cool the earth! > > Yes that's right. Ever hear of the "Dyson Sphere"? > > Before we get to the global catastrophe level, it is very likely that a > simpler Dyson mylar "waistband" about 50 km wide but placed into earth > orbit by thousands of robotic AI launches using cheap energy, around the > equator, could easily cool the earth in sync with ever-growing energy > consumption, and salvage our societal sin-of-gluttony ... AND at the > same time, by focusing the blocked sunlight to other satellites, provide > even MORE electrical energy beamed down in the form microwaves. > > As they say ... When the future gives you lemons, make lemonade ... Humanity as a whole usually learns from experience. In regards to humanities future explosive increase in energy usage it's my hope they will learn by thinking ahead of time to save a world of pain and hassle. No offense intended, but I would be against the Dyson sphere as designed by Freeman Dyson. I very much have my doubts such a massive system would be safe for the planet and all inhabitants. Even if such a massive system is safe why clutter the sky when FRE is simple and doable with present technology? FRE devices would be portable and cause very little disturbance. I would be most surprised if any advanced society used a Dyson sphere. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 17:18:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CNwG4a008305; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:59:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CNwBb8008275; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:58:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:58:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00a901c736a5$4ad07e30$0600a8c0@nixlaptop> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <896795.81996.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <000c01c735b9$995588d0$640fa8c0@MIKEBY3NR533HT> Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 21:54:09 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72005 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrel wrote: <> and <> I don't think even the most doomy Greens expect the problem to last that long! Green house gas CO2 concentration "above the weather" (say 75,000 feet plus) has a rather long "half life" but it is in the decades to low hundreds of years. If CF and/or BLP live up to their promise, Earth could support at least a 100 billion people in comfort because many areas that are barely habitable could be transformed (with due regard to impact on other species in the ecosystem). Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 18:05:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0CNKq9Y019156; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:46:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0CN1Nne002861; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:01:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:01:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000601c7369d$5df5be60$b28c163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <138966.71754.qm@web62405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:59:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <_2tRpD.A.is.CNBqFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72004 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE > Do you really think there was a beginning? If so, > then what created that beginning? Uh...what does this have to do with what I wrote? I said nothing about creation or God or anything like that. I said that I doubted there is a big happy galactic family out there, and that it is probably something more like Pellegrino and Zebrowski speculated about, namely, intelligent starfaring civilizations will not be afraid of utterly crushing any perceived threats, including us if we start to look like one. > Sciences will continue to evolve and change. For now > they are pondering if time began with > the big bang, but at the same time they theorize with > M-theory there are countless big > bangs. M-theory is a religion. > IMHO it seems a given that existence has > always existed. For anyone who missed > it, that would infinity, a concept no human can > comprehend. Infinity, as in without *any* > beginning. Don't you think some orderliness would have > formed in infinite time, LOL? > Again, infinity as in no beginning. Again, I was talking about nothing like this. --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 18:26:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0D16PSb003759; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:07:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0D16LQc003723; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:06:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:06:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <193101c736ae$d913a060$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45A7DF33.5090207@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 02:04:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0D14shl003256 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72006 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Acedmeic data on BD Status: O X-Status: Very interesting, Jones! The article also makes a good case for _plug-in_ algoil-electric hybrids: no emissions in town, and inconsequential CO2-neutral emissions out of town. Regarding production sites I was wondering, couldn't the algae be grown in floating pools at sea rather than in saltwater pools on land as described? Algoil definitely seems a very attractive energy production and storage solution to me, especially if it can be produced at sea. I think it would work nicely in the long term as well, because being BOTH CO2-neutral and of short term solar origin it can't generate any global warming. Unless we want it to of course! Indeed algoil in excess of the immediate needs could be produced and stored away, in order to: a/ remove the present excess carbon from the atmosphere b/ have it available for _controlled_ global warming in the future, e.g. if the planet tries to plunge into the next ice age and we don't want it to :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 8:19 PM Subject: [Vo]: Acedmeic data on BD >I have been as guilty as anyone in choosing to quote relevant yield and > efficiency data "at the high end" of a range - in order to promote a > particular strongly-held conviction - in this case the advantages of > biodiesel - specifically algoil to be grown from microalgae. > > Here is a more authoritative, conservative (more so than NREL)and > carefully considered acedemic viewpoint on national (US) energy > self-sufficiency, which is less gradiose than others have published - > but still extraordinarily optimistic about this new technology- which is > far and away more cost effective than wind, solar cells, geothermal or > any other short-term ecologically sound solution. > > http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html > > Executive summary: A national commitment on Algoil would equate to $46.2 > billion per year for all the required algae farms to yield all the oil > feedstock necessary for the entire country. Compare that to the $100-150 > billion the US spends each year just on purchasing crude oil from > foreign countries, with all of that money leaving the US economy... > > Is the correct short-term solution a no-brainer or what ??? > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 18:54:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0D1YwKS022737; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:36:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0D1YvHW022724; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:34:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 17:34:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 20:34:51 EST To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1168652091" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5352 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <45IfnD.A.8iF.AdDqFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72007 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: is this cold fusion Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1168652091 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _http://www.proton21.com.ua/index_en.html_ (http://www.proton21.com.ua/index_en.html) -------------------------------1168652091 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.proton21.com.ua= /index_en.html
 -------------------------------1168652091-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 20:20:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0D31YTx031436; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 19:02:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0D31Pci031339; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 19:01:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 19:01:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=TXGOJaeYp9G2tDhlUYEm/cvmIld7MKQGCfocYH3KdVaPdodUbhvXT08typ2WLO1vM4x8NJVsIaqpgPozwYVT6cQzEwUgT/ChvX+nT08DYKH5TSmFv5jMwN9+do5es9YM5WfTne6m1jJ1kPzCpsqS0TPgfqzSyft/MlA/LS4c8uk= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 22:01:11 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: RAW Gone In-Reply-To: <45A7F613.3000800@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45A7F613.3000800@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72008 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/12/07, Jones Beene wrote: > RIP RAW > > Say... you don't think the timing has anything to do with that comet > thing, "Do" ya? > > ... the Joachimite three-step: Do re mi ? > > Nothing personal, but I hope that's "do re you" No, more like 111 and Boaz and re me dough. Unless we were there, whence the exit? The all seeing I nose. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 22:15:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0D4tMHi032018; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 20:56:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0D4tIWi032003; Fri, 12 Jan 2007 20:55:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 20:55:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=Oj752MAZ88FCzheTeQucA0GPhTD/tT+FcmWooVjVgxTyJqorHedQSV5Sma1odr73; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <8211642.1168639537288.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:05:37 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8a1d21744cde5baffee0ca9b5ee0b3464540b0f8a6f3b58b0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.46 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72009 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 12, 2007 Status: O X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Jan 12, 2007 1:15 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 12, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 12 Jan 07 Washington, DC 1. CULTURE WAR I: BUSH PROMISES TO VETO STEM CELL RESEARCH BILL. The first science legislation of the new Congress passed the House easily and will pass the Senate overwhelmingly. However, the House vote was 37 short of the margin needed to override a veto. Last year Bush vetoed the bill and promises to do so again. The bill lifts the President's ban on using leftover stem cells from fertility clinics in research. The White House points to a study at Wake Forest that found stem cells in the amniotic fluid of pregnant women, but Anthony Atala, author of the study, warned that amniotic stem cells are no substitute for embryonic stem cells. A Presidential veto will spare leftover embryonic stem cells from the indignity of saving human lives and allow them to be thrown in the garbage with their dignity intact. 2. CULTURE WAR II: MORE TROOPS NEEDED TO QUEL SECTARIAN VIOLENCE. The "new strategy" for Iraq, which the President outlined on Wednesday, is the oldest strategy ever devised: double your bet. It doesn't always work. The problem, the President explained, is sectarian violence. Why, you may be asking, can't Shiites and Sunnis just get along? Briefly: the violence began in 656, 24 years after Muhammad died. Sunnis insist that the heirs of the four caliphs that succeeded Mohammed are the legitimate leaders of Muslims. Shiites are equally certain that only the heirs of the fourth caliph are legitimate successors of Mohammed. And then there's the business of the Madhi: Sunnis say he hasn't shown up yet, Shiites say he's in hiding, but he's coming back. Sound familiar? President Bush is absolutely right, there aren't enough troops in Iraq to settle this dispute. And never will be. 3. CULTURE WAR III: HOW BOB SCREWED UP THE AGE OF THE CANYON. Last week WN compared the Noah's-flood version of the age of the Grand Canyon (6,000 years)to the "scientific" version (6,000,000 years). WN said you have to "add up the ages of the geologic strata exposed on the walls." That was pretty dumb; it would have given you about 2 billion years. What we should have said was, "add up the time it took to erode through all the strata." 4. CULTURE WAR IV: NANCY PELOSI BANS SMOKING IN THE HOUSE LOBBY. Cultures can be changed after all. I would not have believed it possible that smoking would become an anachronism in my lifetime. 5. HIGGS LIGHT: MAYBE THE TEVATRON STILL HAS SHOT AT IT. Justification for building a Supercollider was based on the hope of finding the Higgs boson, if it exists. After the SSC died, hope turned to the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, and just maybe to the less powerful Tevatron at Fermilab. The LHC is expected to start up by the end of 2007, but meanwhile a new estimate of the Higgs mass comes out a little smaller, raising hope that the Tevatron might yet find it. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 08:41:42 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0DGfIS6008023; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 08:41:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0DGfGfj007980; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 08:41:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 08:41:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=VgTGO4sQXg3LwDyKOkDssaHB2EO29AsmMhlHMWo9So1nuG170b6TXOl8+1Z95phE; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220071613112123491@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 04:21:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9405650897049563bc83d8b8ad15dede5f4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.39 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72010 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Supercritical Water Energy Storage Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Supercritical water at about 375 C (705 F at 3200 PSIG) contains ~900 BTU (~ 0.26 KW-Hr) per pound as opposed to 0.016 KW-Hr per pound for leads-acid batteries. Supercritical water adsorbed in or on activated charcoal, or on a montmorillonite clay or zeolite, with an integral electric heater and heat exchanger conduit/tube, can power a steam/Rankine generator with about 50% Carnot efficiency. Recharge can be attained using a hot liquid or plugging it into a wall socket. Some Exxon research on Hydration-Dehydration of Montmorillonite: www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM79/AM79_683.pdf Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Supercritical water at about 375 C (705 F at 3200 PSIG)
contains ~900 BTU (~ 0.26 KW-Hr) per pound as opposed to
0.016 KW-Hr per pound for leads-acid batteries.
Supercritical water adsorbed in or on activated charcoal, or
on a montmorillonite clay or zeolite, with an integral electric heater
and heat exchanger conduit/tube, can power a steam/Rankine
generator with about 50% Carnot efficiency.
Recharge can be attained using a hot liquid or plugging
it into a wall socket.
Some Exxon research on Hydration-Dehydration of Montmorillonite:
 
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 11:28:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0DJS8Vu032343; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 11:28:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0DJS5Ks032328; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 11:28:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 11:28:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=OABDt66hC90p49lgjIxfDsiqCbTtZNHT8VXxcNNwzBOOErf7XHu/qYwgIB6XOH9i3FY+hwvnTxxrDCFF7+aatzfdA2QOHkevPcRmgaNRdYh1q2DoDYtctq9XHEiUGdOsvj3IFuFbNw2anG749JDKk7dnhIJ2qB5VmQ/993DHqRI= ; X-YMail-OSG: qM3B0GcVM1myEJVeqDM1ZPoGqbbLdefqmZUxPSbDoCIuoN9GQMXvqMKWt5qJupIB.tt4I22pcMXyVYiUcdDVwBCSYqGnxTg4lyaCqx7b5docJgPW74Ue3QT.qlBpB3_rHvuGZCwKZpKANxQ- Message-ID: <45A932C0.8070106@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 11:28:00 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45A7F613.3000800@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72011 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: RAW Gone Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > The all seeing I nose. The last published piece (as far as I nose) which RAW wrote is here: http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wilsonlibrary/texts/raw-marquis.html It is an end-game-synopsis, of sorts. If you are new-to-RAW, and if it takes you less than half a day to read these few line: then you probably have not understood the complexity of his thought process... especially the closing "Chorus" which is meant to be inflammatory/provocative: I dreamed I called de Sade on the phone and asked, "Jesus told me that he and you agree on at least one thing and it explains freedom. What is that one thing?" "Quite simple," he replied, "don't be afraid of the Cross." The fear of death is the beginning of slavery. And then the line went dead with a triumphant click, like a barred door falling open. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 13:14:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0DLEdjl026801; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 13:14:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0DLEb6W026772; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 13:14:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 13:14:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=iRP5KCXpJhevQ2jeppavVOyWmHMKJmg3596OFuQnXmDKOVAgXETZ4ymmvOfSaZ+p8Ieujdr1sXeM7fy861Z5wwTIB4HLmTUP2/ggfhw8uUrRgEnGvAiMyHEYz0CFelwE2li8koHkUEuZTHf+mwX2HUQJKm1mlHLBsakyQIgKhPA= Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 16:14:35 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: RAW Gone In-Reply-To: <45A932C0.8070106@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45A7F613.3000800@pacbell.net> <45A932C0.8070106@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72012 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/13/07, Jones Beene wrote: > The fear of death is the beginning of slavery. One of ther most profound statements I have read in a looong time. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 17:36:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0E1aNF4004297; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 17:36:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0E1aIl4004280; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 17:36:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 17:36:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: is this cold fusion Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:36:15 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 14 Jan 2007 01:36:15 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0E1aGQ6004265 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72013 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to FZNIDARSIC@aol.com's message of Fri, 12 Jan 2007 20:34:51 EST: Hi, [snip] >_http://www.proton21.com.ua/index_en.html_ >(http://www.proton21.com.ua/index_en.html) [snip] Maybe. Has anyone replicated their results? While intrigued, I'm always a little wary of results out of a single Russian lab. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 18:25:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0E2PgHt026652; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 18:25:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0E2PYje026624; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 18:25:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 18:25:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=OTyLu0/9WPwgL3u9EXyLwIlINwqsr5XcHrqPyNP62W9dJGz+9d91k7QL8+sEV3efkMzGCCUifO/LHCOfvur0y7vONoMEezwduKL6dM99J9DC5EcAlX14wWIrda/AEbQIBFc+GyS2JP6kTX7gmu+VOeqwq0GXRsIIX6gTJtX764k= ; Message-ID: <20070114022534.81446.qmail@web82714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 18:25:34 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1916077615-1168741534=:80068" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72014 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Another "credentialed" ignoramus Status: O X-Status: --0-1916077615-1168741534=:80068 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Two excellent candidates for Jed's stock "GetSmart!" letter: Ebert & Rislo= ve ...=0Aperhaps these two geniuses should be reviewing film, or something = a bit less demanding...=0A=0Ahttp://ipbiz.blogspot.com/2007/01/rislove-why-= is-uspto-patenting.html=0A=0A --0-1916077615-1168741534=:80068 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Two excellent candidates for Jed's stock "GetSmart!" le= tter: Ebert  & Rislove ...
perhaps these two geniuses should be= reviewing film, or something a bit less demanding...

http://ipbiz.blogspot.com/2007/01/rislove-why-is-uspto-pat= enting.html
--0-1916077615-1168741534=:80068-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 19:58:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0E3wIau010268; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 19:58:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0E3w74N010235; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 19:58:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 19:58:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 14:57:55 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <956542.17595.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <956542.17595.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 14 Jan 2007 03:57:55 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0E3vt3m010189 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72015 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Paul's message of Fri, 12 Jan 2007 07:16:25 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] >Sounds exactly what you said. Our rate of energy >production is exponential. Given >unlimited "free energy" such energy usage will explode >worldwide. > > Actually, our collective rate of energy usage depends upon three things. 1) What we can use it for. 2) How much each of us has available. 3) How many of us there are. Number 1 is dependent upon level of technological development. As our technology becomes more sophisticated, we tend to find more uses for energy, but also each use tends to become more efficient. Number 2 could become nearly unlimited with various sources of new energy. Number 3 may actually be self-limiting. In a number of modern western nations with a high standard of living the population is actually falling. If we can inject wealth rapidly into the third world nations, and raise their standard of living up to our own, then there is a good chance that their populations will also stabilize. A stable planetary population is the most important factor limiting energy usage. We also need to stabilize the global population for other reasons, e.g. esthetic (who wants the whole world to be "concrete jungle"?), biodiversity etc. New sources of energy are the surest means by which we can achieve the rapid increase in standard of living that is necessary to achieve a stable population. The alternative is that nature continues to regulate the population according to the tried and true method known as "boom and bust". Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 23:00:48 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0E70fRG022419; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 23:00:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0E70dJB022409; Sat, 13 Jan 2007 23:00:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 23:00:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45A9D4FD.7090205@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 01:00:13 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45A9A618.4010802@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <45A9A618.4010802@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72016 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Fwd: Steorn Free Energy announces open-source licensing agreement Status: O X-Status: >> Vortexians, Patrick Bailey sent this to me. > > > > It would appear that they must have something worth licensing. OTOH, I > have yet to hear of them demonstrating anything? > >>> Steorn Free Energy announces open-source licensing agreement >>> >>> http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=339568&rel_no=1 >>> >>> >>> >>> The free-energy firm Steorn is making news again. Today they have >>> announced their plans to make their intellectual property open to >>> all under a modified General Purpose License immediately after >>> completion of the independent scientific validation process that is >>> currently underway. >>> >>> Steorn was first reported in OhmyNews in August 2006. The firm >>> placed an ad in The Economist to attract the attention of the >>> world's leading scientists working in the field of experimental >>> physics. >>> >>> Steorn has pressed on with its plan to market its technology through >>> partnerships and licensing. Today's press release puts a new light >>> on Steorn's role in facilitating the rapid development of products >>> using their technology as the power source. >>> >>> In an interview with Richard Walshe, Director of Marketing, Steorn's >>> role in development became clear. "Our position would be in the role >>> of assisting our technology into the public domain. The actual >>> deployment is up to the third parties. We are an enabler," said Walshe. >>> >>> Under the terms of a modified general purpose licence (GPL) and for >>> a nominal fee, Steorn's intellectual property will be made available >>> concurrently to all interested parties, from individual enthusiasts >>> to larger research organizations. Steorn is taking this move to >>> accelerate the deployment and acceptance of its technology for both >>> humanitarian and commercial products. >>> >>> Those who sign up to the service will gain engineering support from >>> Steorn's own development team (if necessary). On Steorn's online >>> forum CEO Sean McCarthy has said, "... understand that the full >>> development environment [of the service] is designed to enable >>> commercial organizations to rapidly develop products using our >>> technology as the power source." >>> >>> The fee will be a sliding scale, depending on the >>> person/organization wishing to sign up. "So there will be room for >>> 'hobbyist' members and the fee in this case will be minimal," says >>> McCarthy. The actual pricing levels will be determined over the next >>> several months. >>> >>> He concludes on the forum, "Again I do have to point that this >>> happens after the technology has been validated and at the same time >>> as the launch of our own product." >>> >>> And that may be the next update on Steorn. >> >> > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 06:17:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0EEH3oR019266; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 06:17:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0EEGxt4019210; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 06:16:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 06:16:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=C+/qazjqOBoYLxNAWzCfnfA9GhLPA2jh2bL6Wdq4ue9Q/AskeNZaDTm/u9VgzMt8IGucf5/QEdfu/ev25s6PNi0wc2riMS6/i2QBnWjUb3ckE+WETIhTZ3EJD0HUK/Rv5Nhpa95DDSYueDsRdkxjx1gEr9KQNv1+nXXjrktsEew= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 09:16:56 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72017 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: V2K and gangstalking Status: O X-Status: Obviously these people are "not well grounded": http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/10/AR2007011001399.html http://snipurl.com/17h4m "A TI in an online mind-control forum recommends a Web site called "Block EMF" (as in electromagnetic frequencies), which advertises a full line of clothing, including aluminum-lined boxer shorts described as a "sheer, comfortable undergarment you can wear over your regular one to shield yourself from power lines and computer electric fields, and microwave, radar, and TV radiation." Similarly, a tinfoil hat disguised as a regular baseball cap is "smart and subtle."" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 07:14:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0EFEjRP012789; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 07:14:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0EFEhXB012769; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 07:14:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 07:14:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20070114151441.59168.qmail@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=YC75zkis4r8/ioiQ9dsE86HjfYE1aJX0NY+pdRxwXUakCxqJTzzDcynuUBWn9X4upzVIzZYhfVE1GRq4u9EqodEtxlgrcZbbt7I5n9bkGHQ6DQM/156oyVWdZpgoa3z2HxqUnNdyJ1MGsJPJ4gGqPS7IHtGgvKRstRzwgGK1cfQ=; X-YMail-OSG: pG7v5K0VM1nBP8JUj543Y9Wrx3mT0tJGdKPWRTKd Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 07:14:41 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72018 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Paul's message of Fri, 12 Jan 2007 07:16:25 -0800 (PST): > Hi, > [snip] >> Sounds exactly what you said. Our rate of energy >> production is exponential. Given >> unlimited "free energy" such energy usage will explode >> worldwide. >> >> > Actually, our collective rate of energy usage depends upon three things. > > 1) What we can use it for. > 2) How much each of us has available. > 3) How many of us there are. > > Number 1 is dependent upon level of technological development. As our technology > becomes more sophisticated, we tend to find more uses for energy, but also each > use tends to become more efficient. It's more complex. For example, the gasoline engine replaced the horse. > Number 2 could become nearly unlimited with various sources of new energy. > > Number 3 may actually be self-limiting. In a number of modern western nations > with a high standard of living the population is actually falling. If we can > inject wealth rapidly into the third world nations, and raise their standard of > living up to our own, then there is a good chance that their populations will > also stabilize. A stable planetary population is the most important factor > limiting energy usage. I think Gaia's self-defense and humanities undeveloped emotional nature will take care of over population within the next decade or two. My concern is not for the humans that survive such upcoming changes, as such humanity will become responsible. It's the idea of handing an irresponsible world portable energy *adding* devices such as cold fusion and ZPE. > We also need to stabilize the global population for other reasons, e.g. esthetic > (who wants the whole world to be "concrete jungle"?), biodiversity etc. I agree. Also humanity in totality needs to recognize and appreciate all life. > New sources of energy are the surest means by which we can achieve the rapid > increase in standard of living that is necessary to achieve a stable population. > > The alternative is that nature continues to regulate the population according to > the tried and true method known as "boom and bust". That's a great concern. Humanity first ***needs*** to wait for adulthood before offering energy adders such as cold fusion to 7 billion people. Such devices at best are for deep space. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 08:10:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0EGA6LZ029555; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 08:10:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0EGA5R4029538; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 08:10:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 08:10:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:09:14 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <5T7LXD.A.ZNH.dXlqFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72019 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: diode array 070114 Status: O X-Status: With recycled energy, a shared planetary aesthetic becomes the most important factor. Lets discuss the prospect of cheap, abundant, clean, safe, reliable, scalable, decentralized, quiet, dense, benign energy so actions applying these devices are well thought out. Lets assume that the diode array will work. Example 1] People are used to concrete, so a lot of buildings can be blueprinted and built quickly without enough thought leading to ugliness. Thought 1] I expect people that build things to absorb enough aesthetics in our information rich world to incorporate beauty. Thought 2] Diode array powered cement mixers will be widely produced leading to a greater use of concrete. Thought 3] Concrete can be sold ready to pour in preloaded mixerboxes on store shelves. Thought 4] Electric rebar welders also need to be widely produced. Thought 5] With cheap energy, even concrete can be easily recycled. Example 2] Water will condense on the heat absorbing parts of systems operated in high humidity conditions. Thought 1] The cold running parts of a system can be in an airwell on a local power wire and water tubing network Example 3] People will burst into the wilderness. Thought 1] Quickly produce quiet one passenger and a few supplies air sleds that skim a few inches off the ground on ground effect ducted fans / air cushions. A light vehicle won't raise much dust. Thought 2] Quickly produce security systems for independent people and their belongings. Thought 3] Quickly produce new equipment for nomads. Example 4] Buildings can be assembled and easily disassembled with self powered vacuum pad fastners. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 08:25:12 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0EGOunE008754; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 08:24:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0EGOtTI008737; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 08:24:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 08:24:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45AA594A.2020702@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:24:42 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: V2K and gangstalking References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72020 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Obviously these people are "not well grounded": > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/10/AR2007011001399.html > > > http://snipurl.com/17h4m > > "A TI in an online mind-control forum recommends a Web site called > "Block EMF" (as in electromagnetic frequencies), which advertises a > full line of clothing, including aluminum-lined boxer shorts described > as a "sheer, comfortable undergarment you can wear over your regular > one to shield yourself from power lines and computer electric fields, > and microwave, radar, and TV radiation." Similarly, a tinfoil hat > disguised as a regular baseball cap is "smart and subtle."" > > We had a poster on Vortex, the Baron, who had sued the government over this matter. I've talked to people who hear voices in their heads. I thank G-d that I don't. I think that the simple explanation is demonic oppression. To the secular mind, having the government behind this is a simple explanation for their problem. It's too bad that it's wrong. BTW, AFAIK, tin foil won't block EMF unless it is grounded. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 08:27:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0EGROko010505; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 08:27:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0EGRMHP010472; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 08:27:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 08:27:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45AA59D1.4070006@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:26:57 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72021 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: rocketry question Status: O X-Status: I'm wondering how liquid air, super heated with a fusion reactor would work as a rocket to get into orbit? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 10:17:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0EIGufn006478; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:16:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0EIGstX006460; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:16:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:16:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Subject: Re: [Vo]: rocketry question To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:16:03 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <45AA59D1.4070006@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72022 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It has the merit of not altering the composition of the atmosphere. The Isp can be improved with a nonmaterial nozzle directing very hot exhaust. I think that a directional leak for very hot exhaust is easy to have by modifying a linear magnetic fusion machine. Air from theimmediate atmosphere can be used until the atmosphere thins out as the rocket travels higher. Aloha, Charlie Reference: On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:26:57 -0600 thomas malloy wrote: >I'm wondering how liquid air, super heated with a fusion >reactor would work as a rocket to get into orbit? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 10:59:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0EIxQHl002312; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:59:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0EIxOmm002290; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:59:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:59:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=kZ5Zqmh0QeasXhVmE/Eg+4nmEwiIrHww1jKxuhIExn+BDqzJRAvxPiegQI4JQ8Vd57T1S69BFM0tjW2uWFJ7Os9qDep+TBIETded3DjrUPGb0i6GMVFgUwZCZkXvWQE2bYsQJgATpkxStOOervcVh+2ZICGQZfysUutnFpeKjqE= Message-ID: <357653710701141058j66a5cbbk4f8b909dd846f5dd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 19:58:49 +0100 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: rocketry question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_65434_29616138.1168801129159" References: <45AA59D1.4070006@usfamily.net> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0485d06df62956c4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72023 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_65434_29616138.1168801129159 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline They tried something like this driven by fission but the design was abandoned when president Kennedy observed a demonstration. Kennedy could have been contaminated by radioactivity. The problem with this kind of thrusters is that energy is lost in waves, specifically shock waves, since the exhaust is so fast relative to the surrounding air. Maybe magnetism can be used to minimize this. Imagine what would happen if the exhaust is ionized. They Reynolds number has to be minimized. Paul Hill imagined a thrust process with low losses. Thrust forces would be pulsed so in the air it would only lead to lossless vibration but when hitting ground it would have a repelling force. It is however hard to imagine how to physically produce such a force. David On 1/14/07, abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > > It has the merit of not altering the composition of the > atmosphere. The Isp can be improved with a nonmaterial > nozzle directing very hot exhaust. I think that a > directional leak for very hot exhaust is easy to have by > modifying a linear magnetic fusion machine. Air from > theimmediate atmosphere can be used until the atmosphere > thins out as the rocket travels higher. > > Aloha, > Charlie > > Reference: > On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:26:57 -0600 > thomas malloy wrote: > >I'm wondering how liquid air, super heated with a fusion > >reactor would work as a rocket to get into orbit? > > ------=_Part_65434_29616138.1168801129159 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline They tried something like this driven by fission but the design was abandoned when president Kennedy observed a demonstration. Kennedy could have been contaminated by radioactivity.

The problem with this kind of thrusters is that energy is lost in waves, specifically shock waves, since the exhaust is so fast relative to the surrounding air. Maybe magnetism can be used to minimize this. Imagine what would happen if the exhaust is ionized. They Reynolds number has to be minimized.

Paul Hill imagined a thrust process with low losses. Thrust forces would be pulsed so in the air it would only lead to lossless vibration but when hitting ground it would have a repelling force. It is however hard to imagine how to physically produce such a force.

David

On 1/14/07, abundance@logonbasic.com <abundance@logonbasic.com > wrote:
It has the merit of not altering the composition of the
atmosphere. The Isp can be improved with a nonmaterial
nozzle directing very hot exhaust. I think that a
directional leak for very hot exhaust is easy to have by
modifying a linear magnetic fusion machine. Air from
theimmediate atmosphere can be used until the atmosphere
thins out as the rocket travels higher.

Aloha,
Charlie

Reference:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:26:57 -0600
  thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
>I'm wondering how liquid air, super heated with a fusion
>reactor would work as a rocket to get into orbit?


------=_Part_65434_29616138.1168801129159-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 11:01:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0EJ0qKq005304; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 11:00:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0EJ0oba005287; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 11:00:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 11:00:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=CXfMPB7SNq7UWKJUljXFU4gugqwTVSiAJG/4YcRwK6W/EhMBELQURvGkalxMqazeLcq2mMcQ7No3xO0vr0BydhnpwsC3PMtB71ozGAtiQPvpA4O0joaz6N0He1FTPLYN4GAzAIoGzAANX1cmk+aPRtKNFqTaUL/WYwXXexUD8Vc= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 14:00:42 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72024 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Supermag WTF? Status: O X-Status: http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/070108/0200554.html "SuperVision "SuperMag" Designs New Power Systems for Wal-Mart to Solve $1 Billion Power Bill Problem Monday January 8, 4:00 am ET LOS ANGELES, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 8, 2007 -- SuperVision Entertainment Inc. (Other OTC:SVET.PK - News) -- Wal-Mart, the world's biggest retailer, is experimenting with a green building strategy aimed at cutting stores' energy usage. In a recent news release from Wal-Mart, it was disclosed that the company is the nation's largest private energy user. The 2074 supercenters located in the United States use an average of 1.5 million kilowatt-hours per year. Combined that is enough energy to power Chile. The 3,800-store chain's annual power bill totals a staggering $1 BILLION. Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott has committed to a corporate plan to reduce that amount by almost 30%, and is investing $500 million a year under a corporate program to prove out sustainable innovations. The company has opened two experimental stores in Texas and Colorado as test laboratories for various alternate power sources. The testing, conducted by The National Renewable Energy Laboratory and Oak Ridge National Laboratory, is ongoing. They have already determined that LED lights have provided an excellent savings, but roof mounted solar panels and wind turbines have proved less successful." What do you think, Jones? Steorn technology? Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 11:10:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0EJAPdo032449; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 11:10:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0EJANsN032432; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 11:10:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 11:10:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=baH5XDQQVdC4Bb58VwYA+0SbztQsYkRdtrK2A4UTLXA9edgN5mfIjRI5iiMZTRs26B1XWXBgUvR2UQGqyYdnROpeBuEonhIDb8HxTrsnT289qCVWmsCy8LpnN8nYflUhBbKS4cc2hKDu047OCAvCAT1PJEWp7uDsddrvFN7dHZ8= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:10:21 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: rocketry question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45AA59D1.4070006@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72025 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: by definition, wouldnt that be a jet and not a rocket? On 1/14/07, abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > It has the merit of not altering the composition of the > atmosphere. The Isp can be improved with a nonmaterial > nozzle directing very hot exhaust. I think that a > directional leak for very hot exhaust is easy to have by > modifying a linear magnetic fusion machine. Air from > theimmediate atmosphere can be used until the atmosphere > thins out as the rocket travels higher. > > Aloha, > Charlie > > Reference: > On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:26:57 -0600 > thomas malloy wrote: > >I'm wondering how liquid air, super heated with a fusion > >reactor would work as a rocket to get into orbit? > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 13:23:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0ELNIBx018331; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:23:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0ELNFhx018310; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:23:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:23:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Supermag WTF? Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:23:08 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6m7lq2d57lfq0p0a31eeo1j2j6a9ud680e@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:23:08 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0ELN9De018250 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72026 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sun, 14 Jan 2007 14:00:42 -0500: Hi, [snip] >The company has opened two experimental stores in Texas and Colorado >as test laboratories for various alternate power sources. The testing, >conducted by The National Renewable Energy Laboratory and Oak Ridge >National Laboratory, is ongoing. They have already determined that LED >lights have provided an excellent savings, but roof mounted solar >panels and wind turbines have proved less successful." [snip] If most stores are single story structures, then they could make huge savings on lighting by simply using translucent roofing so that most of their lighting needs were supplied by daylight. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 15:41:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0ENfFO4001018; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:41:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0ENfDs1001007; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:41:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:41:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=DZC04xYJZxPfX6jxRyWqlXZpeCk5gqmVAhfLcBlUnrMG/YbY3RB0nzfleB0vfjurN4Dds0oUVDOGk6mUrJd1kJk7We4yWeo2jemmu5HgubNCxhyuYpH2k/ro28kunliHRgRI9rjghYxTS54aZIRMI91URV2vJyVR6Lm9LeGpqk0= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:41:11 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Supermag WTF? In-Reply-To: <6m7lq2d57lfq0p0a31eeo1j2j6a9ud680e@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <6m7lq2d57lfq0p0a31eeo1j2j6a9ud680e@4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72027 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/14/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > If most stores are single story structures, then they could make huge savings on > lighting by simply using translucent roofing so that most of their lighting > needs were supplied by daylight. Due to the cost of land, single storey, single family housing is rare in this area. Your opinion of SVET? Looks like a pump and dump stock. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 20:45:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0F4jYsi006595; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:45:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0F4jOYA006496; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:45:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:45:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: lh4kglEVM1meGw2bxqzB.qKEiYPZWBfp4.8zmmLzfZi_UHQxBAPSiVg.WDVXh6tHfMhEf91L64z4qvwGsWon_QlhXBc2SlKnQDe23nCH6yNeYAwC.KrgQnY4W4PD.lrrLVCP91WmWRJmfoY- Message-ID: <45AB06E0.8040102@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:45:20 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: rocketry question References: <45AA59D1.4070006@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0x5_k.A.VlB.kbwqFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72028 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: > by definition, wouldnt that be a jet and not a rocket? Yes; imagined by Arthur Clarke (IIRC) many years ago in I-forget-what story, tho he used fission to power it rather than fusion. He made it a ram jet; could presumably also be built as a turbo jet. The primary pollution it produced (aside from a bit of fallout) was oxides of nitrogen, due to the high temperature and pressure of the expansion chamber. He speculated the exhaust would be visible as a brown stain as a result -- this was 'way before people started to worry about junk like that, of course. > > On 1/14/07, abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: >> It has the merit of not altering the composition of the >> atmosphere. The Isp can be improved with a nonmaterial >> nozzle directing very hot exhaust. I think that a >> directional leak for very hot exhaust is easy to have by >> modifying a linear magnetic fusion machine. Air from >> theimmediate atmosphere can be used until the atmosphere >> thins out as the rocket travels higher. >> >> Aloha, >> Charlie >> >> Reference: >> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:26:57 -0600 >> thomas malloy wrote: >> >I'm wondering how liquid air, super heated with a fusion >> >reactor would work as a rocket to get into orbit? >> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 20:47:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0F4lAUY007839; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:47:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0F4l7uD007812; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:47:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:47:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: KFCJu1gVM1lYYe8V3uuBISom.IiMTeGIg3hTfpVx2qe42efrLQVYWMWy5ApmS4Ixz2BnsvGovyzAMsTtF97uFSsfByMVHiOZwZKte7.4fnDj6NnvxaNCbcoSiijzE72Yv3_iV1wZdUKgvrM7MUcQWBnmbwc4QYnzlk4- Message-ID: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:47:03 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Supermag WTF? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72029 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/070108/0200554.html > > "SuperVision "SuperMag" Designs New Power Systems for Wal-Mart to > Solve $1 Billion Power Bill Problem > Monday January 8, 4:00 am ET > > > LOS ANGELES, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 8, 2007 -- SuperVision > Entertainment Inc. (Other OTC:SVET.PK - News) -- Wal-Mart, the world's > biggest retailer, is experimenting with a green building strategy > aimed at cutting stores' energy usage. > In a recent news release from Wal-Mart, it was disclosed that the > company is the nation's largest private energy user. That is the weirdest news I've seen in a long time! Is it for-real true, or is it just chaff thrown out as part of a phony pump-and-dump story? Anybody know for sure? > The 2074 > supercenters located in the United States use an average of 1.5 > million kilowatt-hours per year. Combined that is enough energy to > power Chile. > > The 3,800-store chain's annual power bill totals a staggering $1 > BILLION. Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott has committed to a corporate plan to > reduce that amount by almost 30%, and is investing $500 million a year > under a corporate program to prove out sustainable innovations. > > The company has opened two experimental stores in Texas and Colorado > as test laboratories for various alternate power sources. The testing, > conducted by The National Renewable Energy Laboratory and Oak Ridge > National Laboratory, is ongoing. They have already determined that LED > lights have provided an excellent savings, but roof mounted solar > panels and wind turbines have proved less successful." > > > > What do you think, Jones? Steorn technology? > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 20:53:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0F4quG4012519; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:52:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0F4qsBv012498; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:52:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:52:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Y1NIsIumvsm62PKBY6t7xqG6+NpOzWnPCt25EglgjGWOyPven3Vz4upcVH3veCLGULs1OgLdO4P6BMjLtDW0vHhQsL6HSOiSDHuNbwUYzjqx3JtJXWFHMxyi3Me2/joTpU4sp2dcK2CkUMnO8kpSUPJhJ4m50vIQ8ZRp4Po/nko= ; X-YMail-OSG: n6FspPYVM1mceFJpiTVGe6zknuG2yN5qtd.bnIlsRmTDxSXqdtVaB1h4n.Tx_85S_XckNj4RabwllyBBphCKS2zFR.Tst0CoqSlBeZa_StzpYg-- Message-ID: <45AB08A1.7070701@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:52:49 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72030 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Supermag WTF? Status: O X-Status: ARG From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 20:56:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0F4uCK1032720; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:56:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0F4uAGV032705; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:56:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:56:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: kuh52AAVM1kwFMv7MbjMMVzlZEsGHD.fsOOqVI0li89VoJBgBsb8nFp6o0nZvVaNLsSZBt3NuUb87EjLi88NYtH13DB7YHfSlyu7b25JF4NISqL8VYdDU79kwCmLdI99riHBe25xhwTLR4g- Message-ID: <45AB0966.50406@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:56:06 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: V2K and gangstalking References: <45AA594A.2020702@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <45AA594A.2020702@usfamily.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72031 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > >> Obviously these people are "not well grounded": >> >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/10/AR2007011001399.html >> >> >> http://snipurl.com/17h4m >> >> "A TI in an online mind-control forum recommends a Web site called >> "Block EMF" (as in electromagnetic frequencies), which advertises a >> full line of clothing, including aluminum-lined boxer shorts described >> as a "sheer, comfortable undergarment you can wear over your regular >> one to shield yourself from power lines and computer electric fields, >> and microwave, radar, and TV radiation." Similarly, a tinfoil hat >> disguised as a regular baseball cap is "smart and subtle."" >> >> > We had a poster on Vortex, the Baron, who had sued the government over > this matter. There's a difference. The Baron is perfectly sane -- but he's a sci-fi writer and regularly posts (or posted) sci-fi to Vortex which was presented as factual posts. (Though he didn't make it hard to figure out there was something a little odd about those posts! Among other things he used to include his website in his sig, which kind of gave the game away.) His "lawsuit" was likely a leg-pulling job. The folks who buy aluminum foil underwear, on the other hand, I'm not so sure of. I suspect they take it seriously. > I've talked to people who hear voices in their heads. I thank G-d that I > don't. I think that the simple explanation is demonic oppression. > To the > secular mind, having the government behind this is a simple explanation > for their problem. It's too bad that it's wrong. > > BTW, AFAIK, tin foil won't block EMF unless it is grounded. > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- > http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 20:58:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0F4wYjA015787; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:58:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0F4wW9L015758; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:58:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:58:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=rEv4N4G6ETiBOdBvzo/FnVWEmXkRQbSlfmMeQAgSOPAEPvPAC2rJlQPfncn2s8ACPHO5Txa10/01EJgxsfKlXoAtPRpr/oCrqiMqq2nH0axumA01wK0/wH+4O0RdHVRKsWIXGQDXyJmuRZ7kKXRXdL9Okm5voTLryIeDphpvBu0= ; X-YMail-OSG: RTV7qA4VM1msDdmlmVHUMpsF2OJOBR2q5Q2WfqhpUoUJwh1Ahdx0HqUwjL2yIZ.dTEtSKxQqjl3.CQbVP__fNNbA2J05RJZm9eu7nkLdDcCl7bGpwnKGSajT_rz3fssuw6.xlOw7dSBpo3k- Message-ID: <45AB09F2.4070006@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:58:26 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex , "New energy for the new world." Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72032 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Acres of Electrodes Status: O X-Status: I came across this Table for the surface area of (silver) colloidal nanoparticles at various concentrations: http://www.silver-rcolloids.com/Tables/SurfaceArea.PDF It got me thinking about trying to better verbalize the anomalous effects of higher concentrations of "excitonic" nanoparticles - when being employed as substitute, or virtual, electrodes. Certain colloids when suspended in a liquid can be excited by either photonics, ultrasonics, RF or magnetic induction or various combinations of these. A virtual-electrolysis-cell, so to speak. Silver itself may not be useful for this concept, it just happened to have this handy table. Interesting things happen on "active" surfaces or interfaces... especially with catalysts and even more so with semiconductor catalysts under some kind of irradiation which triggers the bandgap potential. Some have complained that "nano" as a catchword is being over-hyped these days. Maybe - but not here. This seems to be the direct route to higher efficiency in electrochemistry; but so far the "free energy" of reactions has not been proven to be translated into absolute free energy (by definition)... unless, that is, the reaction is not truly reversible. There is more to this than semantics, hopefully... but most of all, have you ever seen the suggestion of using colloids as "virtual electrodes"? That seems unique. The case can be made that one narrow class of reaction called "superoxidation" is not reversible, or more specifically extracts more heat energy on formation than is being input electromechanically; and then may be naturally induced to take a differing (branching) pathway on reversal, so that the reaction appears to offer a potential of extracting ambient energy. So much for all that doublespeak ... but it may set the table for an eventual understanding of how to use surface catalysts to extract ambient energy in metastable chemicals, and store that chemical energy for later use - while at the same time getting free "air conditioning". IOW the perfect version of Maxwell's Demon. A 1-10 nm diameter colloid suspended in a liquid can present lots of surface area. How much? For a 10 nm diameter colloid - the surface area pi x d^2 = 314 sq nm -- or from the table above we can see that at 15 ppm a liter of water will have over 6 square meters of exposed surface if the colloid is one nm diameter, which is about 30 atoms of catalyst per particle. This is also near the perfect size for excitonic effects: at least it appears so from studying that literature - so if the catalyst is also a semiconductor, then it may undergo efficient bandgap transitions or anomalous QM effects on external stimulation. The usable voltage potential may be tied to a particular band-gap. For instance the reduction potential between H2O and HOOH is matched closely by the band gap of MnO2. Fifteen parts per million is a low concentration comparatively. Salt in ocean water is up to 35,000 ppm or 3.5% but that is ionic, not colloidal, which is more difficult to achieve. However, if we were somehow able to bring the catalyst in question up to Fifteen parts per thousand of a true colloidal particulate, which is 1.5% of the liquid volume(i.e water), then the effective surface area in a liter of water is looking like a good sized yard (at least on the West Coast) - well over an acre. Not bad for (virtual)electrodes in a small electrolytic cell. Stated another way - if nature presents even a tiny thermodynamic asymmetry - such as superoxidation - a reaction (and perhaps the only one in nature) which is not-quite reversible - then net extractable energy will vary with available surface area. If we are then able to multiply the tiny excess by an enormous area and very high reaction rate: usable net energy could be available as in the classic Maxwell's demon but optimized in the form of a storable monopropellant. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 21:01:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0F51IN4002304; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:01:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0F51GoN002282; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:01:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:01:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=budx1MN5CUBuEPSay8gIAbRLwUu9Xxjt4ix9a20hfEYyt6Osc6nSQZ2cmZ/XIfTZVJSvkHYIYxRVXplR97/JHmOn3TeInWxS3P8EmlI73begO2bwab85qm7B7JueZ6rkkM4CPJRMT0LpiVXzzL9yuLKNwFdDdh8j0VKDvcfXU6E= Message-ID: <538fa8f10701142101k2af736c6w687ef8008d6f4e21@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:01:15 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Supermag WTF? In-Reply-To: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_78921_5323990.1168837275062" References: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: <1jLP4B.A.mj.cqwqFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72033 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_78921_5323990.1168837275062 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:SuperMag_by_Enigma thats what i found. not sure, havent looked into this stuff. On 15/01/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > > http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/070108/0200554.html > > "SuperVision "SuperMag" Designs New Power Systems for Wal-Mart to > > Solve $1 Billion Power Bill Problem > > Monday January 8, 4:00 am ET > > LOS ANGELES, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 8, 2007 -- SuperVision > > Entertainment Inc. (Other OTC:SVET.PK - News) -- Wal-Mart, the world's > > biggest retailer, is experimenting with a green building strategy > > aimed at cutting stores' energy usage. > > In a recent news release from Wal-Mart, it was disclosed that the > > company is the nation's largest private energy user. > That is the weirdest news I've seen in a long time! Is it for-real > true, or is it just chaff thrown out as part of a phony pump-and-dump > story? Anybody know for sure? > > The 2074 > > supercenters located in the United States use an average of 1.5 > > million kilowatt-hours per year. Combined that is enough energy to > > power Chile. > > The 3,800-store chain's annual power bill totals a staggering $1 > > BILLION. Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott has committed to a corporate plan to > > reduce that amount by almost 30%, and is investing $500 million a year > > under a corporate program to prove out sustainable innovations. > > The company has opened two experimental stores in Texas and Colorado > > as test laboratories for various alternate power sources. The testing, > > conducted by The National Renewable Energy Laboratory and Oak Ridge > > National Laboratory, is ongoing. They have already determined that LED > > lights have provided an excellent savings, but roof mounted solar > > panels and wind turbines have proved less successful." > > > > What do you think, Jones? Steorn technology? > > Terry > ------=_Part_78921_5323990.1168837275062 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:SuperMag_by_Enigma
thats what i found. not sure, havent looked into this stuff.


On 15/01/07, Stephen A. Lawrence <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:
Terry Blanton wrote:
> http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/070108/0200554.html
> "SuperVision "SuperMag" Designs New Power Systems for Wal-Mart to
> Solve $1 Billion Power Bill Problem
> Monday January 8, 4:00 am ET
> LOS ANGELES, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 8, 2007 -- SuperVision
> Entertainment Inc. (Other OTC:SVET.PK - News) -- Wal-Mart, the world's
> biggest retailer, is experimenting with a green building strategy
> aimed at cutting stores' energy usage.
> In a recent news release from Wal-Mart, it was disclosed that the
> company is the nation's largest private energy user.
That is the weirdest news I've seen in a long time!  Is it for-real
true, or is it just chaff thrown out as part of a phony pump-and-dump
story?  Anybody know for sure?
> The 2074
> supercenters located in the United States use an average of 1.5
> million kilowatt-hours per year. Combined that is enough energy to
> power Chile.
> The 3,800-store chain's annual power bill totals a staggering $1
> BILLION. Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott has committed to a corporate plan to
> reduce that amount by almost 30%, and is investing $500 million a year
> under a corporate program to prove out sustainable innovations.
> The company has opened two experimental stores in Texas and Colorado
> as test laboratories for various alternate power sources. The testing,
> conducted by The National Renewable Energy Laboratory and Oak Ridge
> National Laboratory, is ongoing. They have already determined that LED
> lights have provided an excellent savings, but roof mounted solar
> panels and wind turbines have proved less successful."
> <more>
> What do you think, Jones?  Steorn technology?
> Terry
------=_Part_78921_5323990.1168837275062-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 21:15:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0F5Ew5X008048; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:14:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0F5EvsZ008030; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:14:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:14:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Subject: Re: [Vo]: rocketry question To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 05:14:01 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72034 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The spacecraft could launch vertically from a large platform of shock difussing structures or, at greater expense on the ground, launch horizontally from a runway grill on top of shock difussing structures. When the spacecraft exceeded the speed of sound it would leave its shockwave behind. Telescoping delta wings and mobile vertical stabilizers may apply (whatever it takes including some practicality). It would be a jet in the lower atmosphere and a rocket at high altitudes. Air sucking pores on part of the airframe may improve the airflow and reduce the shock. Reference: On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:10:21 -0700 "leaking pen" wrote: >by definition, wouldnt that be a jet and not a rocket? > >On 1/14/07, abundance@logonbasic.com > wrote: >> It has the merit of not altering the composition of the >> atmosphere. The Isp can be improved with a nonmaterial >> nozzle directing very hot exhaust. I think that a >> directional leak for very hot exhaust is easy to have by >> modifying a linear magnetic fusion machine. Air from >> theimmediate atmosphere can be used until the atmosphere >> thins out as the rocket travels higher. >> >> Aloha, >> Charlie >> >> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:26:57 -0600 >> thomas malloy wrote: >> >I'm wondering how liquid air, super heated with a >>fusion >> >reactor would work as a rocket to get into orbit? >> >> > > >-- >That which yields isn't always weak. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 23:38:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0F7bwhk024716; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:37:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0F7bumI024698; Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:37:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:37:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:37:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20070114151441.59168.qmail@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20070114151441.59168.qmail@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:37:53 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0F7bsBF024677 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72035 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Paul's message of Sun, 14 Jan 2007 07:14:41 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to Paul's message of Fri, 12 Jan 2007 >07:16:25 -0800 (PST): > > Hi, > > [snip] > >> Sounds exactly what you said. Our rate of energy > >> production is exponential. Given > >> unlimited "free energy" such energy usage will >explode > >> worldwide. > >> > >> > > Actually, our collective rate of energy usage >depends upon three things. > > > > 1) What we can use it for. > > 2) How much each of us has available. > > 3) How many of us there are. > > > > Number 1 is dependent upon level of technological >development. As our technology > > becomes more sophisticated, we tend to find more >uses for energy, but also each > > use tends to become more efficient. > >It's more complex. For example, the gasoline engine >replaced the horse. Thank you for making my point. With an improvement in technology came an increase in energy consumption, and since then the technology has been refined so that it is becoming more efficient. When we change to electric/CF vehicles, it will become more efficient again. [snip] >I think Gaia's self-defense and humanities undeveloped >emotional nature will take care of >over population within the next decade or two. My >concern is not for the humans that >survive such upcoming changes, as such humanity will >become responsible. It's the idea of >handing an irresponsible world portable energy >*adding* devices such as cold fusion and ZPE. If your second law violating technology actually works, then I would be quite happy to rely on that to stabilize the World population, however if it doesn't pan out, then I think we need to look to the energy adders, because otherwise we are going to witness catastrophic deaths on a vast scale, IOW the "bust" side of "boom and bust". [snip] > > The alternative is that nature continues to >regulate the population according to > > the tried and true method known as "boom and bust". > >That's a great concern. Humanity first ***needs*** to >wait for adulthood before offering >energy adders such as cold fusion to 7 billion people. > Such devices at best are for deep >space. The energy adders would not be a major problem, if we could stabilize the population at no more than say twice it's current size, though I would prefer to see it considerably less than it's current size, e.g. 1 billion? Note that this need not cause anyone any grief. We simply need to expand the trend of falling population that has already taken hold in some Western nations to the whole planet, which means that we first need to rapidly increase the standard of living of all people. One indicator that the planet is already over populated is the dwindling fish stocks World wide. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 01:20:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0F9KcIw019467; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 01:20:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0F9KaCP019449; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 01:20:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 01:20:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45AB4749.9090805@usfamily.net> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 03:20:09 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: rocketry question References: <45AA59D1.4070006@usfamily.net> <357653710701141058j66a5cbbk4f8b909dd846f5dd@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <357653710701141058j66a5cbbk4f8b909dd846f5dd@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72036 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: David Jonsson wrote: > > The problem with this kind of thrusters is that energy is lost in > waves, specifically shock waves, since the exhaust is so fast relative > to the surrounding air. Maybe magnetism can be used to minimize this. > Imagine what would happen if the exhaust is ionized. They Reynolds > number has to be minimized. What is the Reynolds number, and how is it minimized. > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 02:41:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FAeijq018992; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 02:40:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FAegNV018969; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 02:40:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 02:40:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <1ae701c73891$98024f10$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:40:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0FAeeJb018919 Resent-Message-ID: <7svUxD.A.LoE.po1qFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72037 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator Status: O X-Status: I made this "online calculator" to estimate the global warming induced by NRE use (Non Renewable Energy): http://www.google.com/search?q=300*%28+%281%2B++NREjoulesPerDay++%2F10%5E22%29%5E0.25-1%29 1/ Click the link, ignore the results and double-click "NREjoulesPerDay" in the search box to replace it by your projected value 2/ Click "Search" to get the corresponding global warming in °C. For example if you enter 100*1.2*10^18 (100 times the 2003 daily global energy consumption, note that if we all had merely consumed as much energy per capita as the Qatari that year we would have multiplied it by 13 already!) you get 0.9°C. Almost 1°C is not benign, for a consumption boost factor which doesn't seem unrealistic in the event of a new source of inexpensive NRE (hot fusion, cold fusion, a new type of cheap fission, hydrinos, ZPE, whatever). Share and enjoy, -- Michel P.S. The formula is straightforwardly derived from the Stefan-Boltzmann fourth power of T black body radiation formula, assuming: - _ZERO_ excess of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere - 300K present global average temperature - 240W/m2 average absorbed (and therefore re-radiated) solar energy: 1370/4 = 340W incident per m2, minus 100W/m2 reflected (30%), yielding 10^22 J/day for the total globe surface area. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 04:13:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FC09G4009756; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 04:00:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FBh5OT027382; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 03:43:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 03:43:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:39:05 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72039 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: seacrete Status: RO X-Status: A Seacrete (I don't know if this name is dominant) is a concrete like, limestone like, deposit that will collect on anodes immersed in seawater. This could be a cheap and durable building material. My source didn't say if ocean metals were deposited on the associated cathodes or could be with modifications. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 04:18:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FC09G6009756; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 04:01:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FBaRoT025519; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 03:36:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 03:36:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:29:12 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72038 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: civilization support Status: O X-Status: I am deeply sure 2LoT escaping technology will work. If it doesn't my backup is Algae. Algae is an excellent supplier of fats, oils, proteins, plastics (a safe extrapolation), and fibers (paper can be made from it). I don't mind self improvement of the creatures but I don't want gross genetic tinkering - the ponds are extremely likely to drain into the ocean. Even if 2LoT escaping technology works, algae farming is useful and 2LoTET would improve the process. A self growing ocean settlement can be started. Algae is lighter than water so ponds can be plastic bladders on supportive hollow panels. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 06:58:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FEwElm006962; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 06:58:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FEwD4m006947; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 06:58:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 06:58:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=nrPscrZ4hHVwal8+zyOIHsKyFxD79McHrzcQPktKTNJXS4hFBLPo+T5+xpHo1JdXB+7iC/bcG/hn/3fPtBmrCAHja++DdWdbnp3zOhnnWNSaQTIpBM7ct8yWZz6AcHxsnRaCyLfu1m/abxbS8K98TPliJwS/WWOFrOk8YILvMtI= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:58:07 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Supermag WTF? In-Reply-To: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72040 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 1/14/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > That is the weirdest news I've seen in a long time! Is it for-real > true, or is it just chaff thrown out as part of a phony pump-and-dump > story? Anybody know for sure? My guess is pump/dump. The stock has gone from $0.05 to $0.65 in a few months. However, Sean has not commented on the Steorn forum that I can find. Egnima, fer sure! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 06:59:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FExZN6001556; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 06:59:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FExUSV001496; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 06:59:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 06:59:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=aBHeeHWYjoOrfzvNolYmIDJ3njAawhU75iH7PTbzTI3Bzn+PukP/05TaKcrr/P0y30Y8zoQ7BpXbz90ITa3W9jNSYs6RXFF19FGtCK1hlif5aGmZkjjnIsuTjW9NC/VLUGAx18fDvM1hMor0gYYLplaOwnUItRDRhznaG/neP6g= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:59:22 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Supermag WTF? In-Reply-To: <45AB08A1.7070701@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> <45AB08A1.7070701@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72041 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 1/14/07, Jones Beene wrote: > ARG Yes, my sentiments exactly. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 07:17:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FFGxVt021468; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:17:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FFGvBL021440; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:16:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:16:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=HpNLF0nVb39T141vi86D+T06Ty8AuKFd6WNSFSzxc1LEE7W99kIUQAUizmgv7FmiG/jBwnIpV+G6Wm1qyKmGx3QETD62rb043DmfBNXTPcniwNa9nInP7m9iW9WeeXiMbepiU9oeiWfoKqFAPAFvef77s3bhw66wcNuWpCHzju4=; X-YMail-OSG: rgcbkgAVM1nyaTBKlR30In3Ic4_ObkcFtY5EFUw_qjgU7AoTeRoGGMADw3TruIOJVbEFtJRl6BB6c0r1puYxDzjU4Ch_XYtenuH9PLGFpCwFRYkH6L7ImFmTnU8CL8X4DWqluzQydOsiuAH2ZR5uecikaxXJR6NmUbZwjC2EW3PN7hwP9ffLfFqcICSqdqlrn.rf1A-- Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:16:54 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <385979.20269.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72042 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Paul's message of Sun, 14 Jan 2007 07:14:41 -0800 (PST): > Hi, > [snip] >> Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >>> In reply to Paul's message of Fri, 12 Jan 2007 >> 07:16:25 -0800 (PST): >>> Hi, >>> [snip] >>>> Sounds exactly what you said. Our rate of energy >>>> production is exponential. Given >>>> unlimited "free energy" such energy usage will >> explode >>>> worldwide. >>>> >>>> >>> Actually, our collective rate of energy usage >> depends upon three things. >>> 1) What we can use it for. >>> 2) How much each of us has available. >>> 3) How many of us there are. >>> >>> Number 1 is dependent upon level of technological >> development. As our technology >>> becomes more sophisticated, we tend to find more >> uses for energy, but also each >>> use tends to become more efficient. >> It's more complex. For example, the gasoline engine >> replaced the horse. > > Thank you for making my point. With an improvement in technology came an > increase in energy consumption, and since then the technology has been refined > so that it is becoming more efficient. When we change to electric/CF vehicles, > it will become more efficient again. You are merely missing the depth of the issue, as it's more complex than efficiency. There are other factors involved besides efficiency such as power, weight, size, cost, noise, simplicity, etc. For example the Wankel engine was invented for its power to weight ratio and not efficiency. To this day the Wankel engine is still used for its high power to weight ratio despite being an inefficient gas-fired internal combustion engine. Efficiency is not the only motivating factor involved in new technology through out the life span of any particular technology. In a nutshell, new technology may or may not improve efficiency over its life span. For example, over time new technology was introduced to CPU's at the cost of efficiency for speed. On the other hand there has been new technology that focused on efficiency over other factors. Other factors could be cost, size, etc. > [snip] >> I think Gaia's self-defense and humanities undeveloped >> emotional nature will take care of >> over population within the next decade or two. My >> concern is not for the humans that >> survive such upcoming changes, as such humanity will >> become responsible. It's the idea of >> handing an irresponsible world portable energy >> *adding* devices such as cold fusion and ZPE. > > If your second law violating technology actually works, then I would be quite > happy to rely on that to stabilize the World population, I agree for the most part. I would refer to such FRE devices as AEM (ambient energy movers) since there are almost as many interpretations of the 2nd law as there are physicists. Such AEM devices are not fiction, but a fact. An LED connected to a resistor emits photons. Albeit a low photon count, but such a device could easily be 400 nanometers square, thereby allowing 7 trillion devices in one thin square meter panel. however if it doesn't > pan out, then I think we need to look to the energy adders, because otherwise we > are going to witness catastrophic deaths on a vast scale, IOW the "bust" side of > "boom and bust". Unfortunately it appears with high probability such catastrophic deaths will occur regardless, but I agree any effort should help minimize the death count. > [snip] >>> The alternative is that nature continues to >> regulate the population according to >>> the tried and true method known as "boom and bust". >> That's a great concern. Humanity first ***needs*** to >> wait for adulthood before offering >> energy adders such as cold fusion to 7 billion people. >> Such devices at best are for deep >> space. > > The energy adders would not be a major problem, if we could stabilize the > population at no more than say twice it's current size, though I would prefer to > see it considerably less than it's current size, e.g. 1 billion? Twice present pollution??? Unfortunately within the next decade we'll all see it's already a problem, a nightmare. It would be a problem even if we stabilized at half the pollution. That's probably moot since any appreciable pollution is unacceptable. If we peer a little deeper we'll see air pollution is merely one problem of many. Again, portable "free energy" machines would cause an energy usage explosion in highly focused areas called cities. That is why the development of FRE is vitally important as compared to cold fusion, ZPE, etc. Regards, Paul Lowrance > Note that this need not cause anyone any grief. We simply need to expand the > trend of falling population that has already taken hold in some Western nations > to the whole planet, which means that we first need to rapidly increase the > standard of living of all people. > One indicator that the planet is already over populated is the dwindling fish > stocks World wide. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 07:28:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FFSgbC016029; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:28:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FFSeI5016020; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:28:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:28:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=d4nGg3NzvepG3aXlZMPj3d4NQGD2YcqhEYZwXLZLVvP1TOpV2DlFafYoQaHKb/1jdbo53Vs0iwQ4M3lq5NUjSL1tS7Ap8IfFQbbbHra4niMEbYimMiogOg2aYUurLWs+hVaSprwe+MtMkxlTsn4XcwR8sE2wjDkuYdxriAR+9pg= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:28:27 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Supermag WTF? In-Reply-To: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: <32HrjB.A.P6D.o25qFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72043 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: that they are the nations largest energy user? Wouldn't surprise me. Shy of maybe some company that owns a lot of manufacturuing facilities. And most Walmart stores are indeed single story. And 24 hours a day, and in places where weather patterns means not much sunlight. Just sunlight isnt enough. On 1/14/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Terry Blanton wrote: > > http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/070108/0200554.html > > > > "SuperVision "SuperMag" Designs New Power Systems for Wal-Mart to > > Solve $1 Billion Power Bill Problem > > Monday January 8, 4:00 am ET > > > > > > LOS ANGELES, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 8, 2007 -- SuperVision > > Entertainment Inc. (Other OTC:SVET.PK - News) -- Wal-Mart, the world's > > biggest retailer, is experimenting with a green building strategy > > aimed at cutting stores' energy usage. > > > In a recent news release from Wal-Mart, it was disclosed that the > > company is the nation's largest private energy user. > > That is the weirdest news I've seen in a long time! Is it for-real > true, or is it just chaff thrown out as part of a phony pump-and-dump > story? Anybody know for sure? > > > The 2074 > > supercenters located in the United States use an average of 1.5 > > million kilowatt-hours per year. Combined that is enough energy to > > power Chile. > > > > The 3,800-store chain's annual power bill totals a staggering $1 > > BILLION. Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott has committed to a corporate plan to > > reduce that amount by almost 30%, and is investing $500 million a year > > under a corporate program to prove out sustainable innovations. > > > > The company has opened two experimental stores in Texas and Colorado > > as test laboratories for various alternate power sources. The testing, > > conducted by The National Renewable Energy Laboratory and Oak Ridge > > National Laboratory, is ongoing. They have already determined that LED > > lights have provided an excellent savings, but roof mounted solar > > panels and wind turbines have proved less successful." > > > > > > > > What do you think, Jones? Steorn technology? > > > > Terry > > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 07:34:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FFXoHT021101; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:33:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FFXmsi021075; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:33:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:33:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:x-google-sender-auth; b=iAljgj4WHX8tjiBsFV/a7xWNB85AnU3XQXxzbao9C8pcWgmmiyQ09qEQUqa8X+6GL5e7wIg9jSQHCQsXdWQEZpHS6FXnC32L8kFtfQBCbJ1ANR/pJ5mneXJoJgMqB1CvHYuf9I0k2lBu97UQ8JVO96aX8ri1fH01f6VDEufqePE= Message-ID: <357653710701150733r2b80fda1r223e692a7ad2db0e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 16:33:31 +0100 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_76641_16315029.1168875211526" X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4c74550da3c5046d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72044 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: d'Alemberts paradox in super fluids Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_76641_16315029.1168875211526 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline With superfluidity the chanche to test d'Alembers paradox exist. Check the paradox for exapmle here http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Mechanical-Engineering/2-016Fall-2005/AFFB22E3-DD6D-4560-966D-5FA20515560B/0/2005reading5.pdf "Jean Le Rond d'Alembert (1717-1783) performed a series of experiments to measure the drag on a sphere in a flowing fluid, and on the basis of the potential flow analysis he expected that the force would approach zero as the viscosity of the fluid approached zero. However, this was not the case. The net force seemed to converge on a non-zero value as the viscosity approached zero. Hence, the vanishing of the net force in the potential flow analysis is known as d'Alembert's Paradox." or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'Alembert's_paradox Has anyone determined this in superfluid helium? David ------=_Part_76641_16315029.1168875211526 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline With superfluidity the chanche to test d'Alembers paradox exist.

Check the paradox for exapmle here
http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Mechanical-Engineering/2-016Fall-2005/AFFB22E3-DD6D-4560-966D-5FA20515560B/0/2005reading5.pdf
"Jean Le Rond d'Alembert (1717-1783) performed a series of experiments to measure the drag on a sphere in a flowing fluid, and on the basis of the potential flow analysis he expected that the force would approach zero as the viscosity of the fluid approached zero. However, this was not the case. The net force seemed to converge on a non-zero value as the viscosity approached zero. Hence, the vanishing of the net force in the potential flow analysis is known as d'Alembert's Paradox."
or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'Alembert's_paradox

Has anyone determined this in superfluid helium?

David


------=_Part_76641_16315029.1168875211526-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 07:37:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FFbRDP022659; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:37:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FFbPR6022637; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:37:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:37:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=pND3t3zSAh7bLGUHkS++73GhuVV3ZdxT71qHZFSINNzBwyV8EcP/t8ngjkgVqHuAvbV0QrlhNeXQv+vIjyFCq8cVoVJuOSffXpbbEfGr7/CIRFbU7trj9m09T5I/3fPIgjnwJ27uk8ya5pPk0KHAOf/qpj633b3ZqU9InXf7RTA= Message-ID: <357653710701150737i5d5e1369md94133e64a3c93b5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 16:37:00 +0100 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: rocketry question In-Reply-To: <45AB4749.9090805@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_76725_5477537.1168875420756" References: <45AA59D1.4070006@usfamily.net> <357653710701141058j66a5cbbk4f8b909dd846f5dd@mail.gmail.com> <45AB4749.9090805@usfamily.net> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8c0373c407da851f Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72045 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_76725_5477537.1168875420756 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 1/15/07, thomas malloy wrote: > > David Jonsson wrote: > > > > > The problem with this kind of thrusters is that energy is lost in > > waves, specifically shock waves, since the exhaust is so fast relative > > to the surrounding air. Maybe magnetism can be used to minimize this. > > Imagine what would happen if the exhaust is ionized. They Reynolds > > number has to be minimized. > > What is the Reynolds number, and how is it minimized. This is a mechanical number in fluid theory. It describes the relation between inertial forces and torsion or skew forces. If skew forces dominates over inertial forces the fluid tends to bend into waves and turbulence. This is my imagination. It is not different form the Euler theory of breakdown of rods in solid mechanics. Strictly mathematical it would be defined differently. It also has a meaning in magnetized fluids and there could be different Reynolds numbers in a fluid depending on what aspect of the fluid you measure. Minimizing Reynolds number meaning increasing inertial properties and minimizing the force from for example viscosity or small scale turbulence. Boundary layer formation could also improve flow. Reynolds number has a definition but the terms of it's definition are less defined like characteristic length, speed and density. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_number David ------=_Part_76725_5477537.1168875420756 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 1/15/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
David Jonsson wrote:

>
> The problem with this kind of thrusters is that energy is lost in
> waves, specifically shock waves, since the exhaust is so fast relative
> to the surrounding air. Maybe magnetism can be used to minimize this.
> Imagine what would happen if the exhaust is ionized. They Reynolds
> number has to be minimized.

What is the Reynolds number, and how is it minimized.

This is a mechanical number in fluid theory. It describes the relation between inertial forces and torsion or skew forces. If skew forces dominates over inertial forces the fluid tends to bend into waves and turbulence. This is my imagination. It is not different form the Euler theory of breakdown of rods in solid mechanics. Strictly mathematical it would be defined differently. It also has a meaning in magnetized fluids and there could be different Reynolds numbers in a fluid depending on what aspect of the fluid you measure. Minimizing Reynolds number meaning increasing inertial properties and minimizing the force from for example viscosity or small scale turbulence. Boundary layer formation could also improve flow.

Reynolds number has a definition but the terms of it's definition are less defined like characteristic length, speed and density.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_number

David


------=_Part_76725_5477537.1168875420756-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 09:04:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FH3niT007566; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:03:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FH3lwd007540; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:03:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:03:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Ghp4tCPmwZ2/LsgS1zhtgGqqgBnx3E5sqQxojqECphdnGAyA5gTCeLIFZpfAR3TmcAbds/cnrgs7xoGwJ7llpdldkt2cbePIOAOfcc62IFkgOKP4kPifdhhJJWLoiw9zWoeQODEqpa99Hg380JRNgDFAUxARuH1FfGMPplH83OU= ; X-YMail-OSG: PFaYv00VM1nInNWLfnP4HsFxIFDGA0GWmijPGkLFCD_oMnOSZQSnH4S_a4QDvGpKKz9j9OoCEkCKAqCOWvVrReOuJQ7O01RYioJcyAZYs1c3t7hlUC5wm6DyDn6giQaumDIjQoL6QkmfHXWNWbNlJ8y23VpnyeKb1A-- Message-ID: <45ABB3EC.1060206@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:03:40 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <357653710701150733r2b80fda1r223e692a7ad2db0e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <357653710701150733r2b80fda1r223e692a7ad2db0e@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72046 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: d'Alemberts paradox in super fluids Status: RO X-Status: David Jonsson wrote: > With superfluidity the chanche to test d'Alembers paradox exist. This must be related to the phenomenon of increase capillary efficiency at micro dimensions http://faculty.washington.edu/yagerp/microfluidicstutorial/basicconcepts/basicconcepts.htm Recent advances in capillary science have demonstrated that there is negative viscosity effect (seems to be negative since water will be climbing against a pressure gradient much faster than normal capillary action. This apparent negative viscosity probably partly explains Jason Holt's statement (below), "As you shrink pore size, there is a huge enhancement in flow rate....It's something that is quite counter-intuitive," says LLNL chemical engineer Jason Holt, whose findings appeared in the 19 May 2006 issue of "Science." http://www.sciencemag.org/content/vol312/issue5776/index.dtl [you must have a subsrcition to view] Jones > Check the paradox for exapmle here > http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Mechanical-Engineering/2-016Fall-2005/AFFB22E3-DD6D-4560-966D-5FA20515560B/0/2005reading5.pdf > "Jean Le Rond d'Alembert (1717-1783) performed a series of experiments > to measure the drag on a sphere in a flowing fluid, and on the basis of > the potential flow analysis he expected that the force would approach > zero as the viscosity of the fluid approached zero. However, this was > not the case. The net force seemed to converge on a non-zero value as > the viscosity approached zero. Hence, the vanishing of the net force in > the potential flow analysis is known as d'Alembert's Paradox." > or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'Alembert's_paradox > > > Has anyone determined this in superfluid helium? > > David > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 09:10:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FHAE1v016312; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:10:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FH8xH8014120; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:08:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:08:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=sZZDkS+AG7bRUdlC8MprGHMgxtvZKwZVP5sXmjkKZhA/sXMIb565y+S4gEqCnWdNEFmJ2EdrUoMjSHCuonukfKz/bPCKTjiyYe1D1/Fr8td03l9DZ5DEaS1tqC1X3SMLUs6mTeQnl/GzMOEstNXKhIlx05vUg3UHKXmcSCmADPs= Message-ID: <357653710701150908s4a1f0665ld62081990a324710@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:08:48 +0100 From: "David Jonsson" Sender: davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: d'Alemberts paradox in super fluids In-Reply-To: <45ABB3EC.1060206@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_78881_3288086.1168880928759" References: <357653710701150733r2b80fda1r223e692a7ad2db0e@mail.gmail.com> <45ABB3EC.1060206@pacbell.net> X-Google-Sender-Auth: a69fbfde38669f38 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72047 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------=_Part_78881_3288086.1168880928759 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No, I can't see that. Isn't capillary force a Casimir force and thus ZPE dependent. David On 1/15/07, Jones Beene wrote: > > David Jonsson wrote: > > With superfluidity the chanche to test d'Alembers paradox exist. > > > This must be related to the phenomenon of increase capillary > efficiency at micro dimensions > > > http://faculty.washington.edu/yagerp/microfluidicstutorial/basicconcepts/basicconcepts.htm > > Recent advances in capillary science have demonstrated that there is > negative viscosity effect (seems to be negative since water will be > climbing against a pressure gradient much faster than normal capillary > action. This apparent negative viscosity probably partly explains Jason > Holt's statement (below), "As you shrink pore size, there is a huge > enhancement in flow rate....It's something that is quite > counter-intuitive," says LLNL chemical engineer Jason Holt, whose > findings appeared in the 19 May 2006 issue of "Science." > > http://www.sciencemag.org/content/vol312/issue5776/index.dtl > > [you must have a subsrcition to view] > > Jones > > > > > Check the paradox for exapmle here > > > http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Mechanical-Engineering/2-016Fall-2005/AFFB22E3-DD6D-4560-966D-5FA20515560B/0/2005reading5.pdf > > "Jean Le Rond d'Alembert (1717-1783) performed a series of experiments > > to measure the drag on a sphere in a flowing fluid, and on the basis of > > the potential flow analysis he expected that the force would approach > > zero as the viscosity of the fluid approached zero. However, this was > > not the case. The net force seemed to converge on a non-zero value as > > the viscosity approached zero. Hence, the vanishing of the net force in > > the potential flow analysis is known as d'Alembert's Paradox." > > or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'Alembert's_paradox > > > > > > Has anyone determined this in superfluid helium? > > > > David > > > > > > ------=_Part_78881_3288086.1168880928759 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No, I can't see that. Isn't capillary force a Casimir force and thus ZPE dependent.

David

On 1/15/07, Jones Beene < jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:
David Jonsson wrote:
> With superfluidity the chanche to test d'Alembers paradox exist.


This must be related to the phenomenon of increase capillary
efficiency at micro dimensions

http://faculty.washington.edu/yagerp/microfluidicstutorial/basicconcepts/basicconcepts.htm

Recent advances in capillary science have demonstrated that there is
negative viscosity effect (seems to be negative since water will be
climbing against a pressure gradient much faster than normal capillary
action. This apparent negative viscosity probably partly explains Jason
Holt's statement (below), "As you shrink pore size, there is a huge
enhancement in flow rate....It's something that is quite
counter-intuitive," says LLNL chemical engineer Jason Holt, whose
findings appeared in the 19 May 2006 issue of "Science."

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/vol312/issue5776/index.dtl

[you must have a subsrcition to view]

Jones



> Check the paradox for exapmle here
> http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Mechanical-Engineering/2-016Fall-2005/AFFB22E3-DD6D-4560-966D-5FA20515560B/0/2005reading5.pdf
> "Jean Le Rond d'Alembert (1717-1783) performed a series of experiments
> to measure the drag on a sphere in a flowing fluid, and on the basis of
> the potential flow analysis he expected that the force would approach
> zero as the viscosity of the fluid approached zero. However, this was
> not the case. The net force seemed to converge on a non-zero value as
> the viscosity approached zero. Hence, the vanishing of the net force in
> the potential flow analysis is known as d'Alembert's Paradox."
> or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'Alembert's_paradox
> < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'Alembert's_paradox>
>
> Has anyone determined this in superfluid helium?
>
> David
>
>


------=_Part_78881_3288086.1168880928759-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 09:29:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FHSum6005889; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:28:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FHSsDQ005861; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:28:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:28:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: s91qmtsVM1nncvihecwNdT6FxkmNowSiqKhmUllxcCz_80LnHm35Kgin_BpLPV4gvlFWunZEpa0lunZRn4auIRUK5Ci6z5zBtjcQcnhm_yW5xv7EI1A3esZ.vrow05G9kyngJI8EFV24kCefowSlVXkNeJ9OiDLjRRMlJ8K05Nbk2X0eRAIewhZGa1k3 Message-ID: <45ABB9D0.6070306@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:28:48 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Supermag WTF? References: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72048 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: > that they are the nations largest energy user? Yes, exactly! > Wouldn't surprise me. > Shy of maybe some company that owns a lot of manufacturuing > facilities. Like Nucor, or Alcoa, or GM, or GE, or .... I mean, a billion dollars a year to light lightbulbs?? Oh, I realize there's a lot more than that to it -- maybe they rolled all corporate energy sinks together and it's actually their trucks that are taking the lion's share? -- but it still seems like they shouldn't be number 1. > > And most Walmart stores are indeed single story. And 24 hours a day, > and in places where weather patterns means not much sunlight. Just > sunlight isnt enough. > > On 1/14/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> >> >> Terry Blanton wrote: >> > http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/070108/0200554.html >> > >> > "SuperVision "SuperMag" Designs New Power Systems for Wal-Mart to >> > Solve $1 Billion Power Bill Problem >> > Monday January 8, 4:00 am ET >> > >> > >> > LOS ANGELES, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 8, 2007 -- SuperVision >> > Entertainment Inc. (Other OTC:SVET.PK - News) -- Wal-Mart, the world's >> > biggest retailer, is experimenting with a green building strategy >> > aimed at cutting stores' energy usage. >> >> > In a recent news release from Wal-Mart, it was disclosed that the >> > company is the nation's largest private energy user. >> >> That is the weirdest news I've seen in a long time! Is it for-real >> true, or is it just chaff thrown out as part of a phony pump-and-dump >> story? Anybody know for sure? >> >> > The 2074 >> > supercenters located in the United States use an average of 1.5 >> > million kilowatt-hours per year. Combined that is enough energy to >> > power Chile. >> > >> > The 3,800-store chain's annual power bill totals a staggering $1 >> > BILLION. Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott has committed to a corporate plan to >> > reduce that amount by almost 30%, and is investing $500 million a year >> > under a corporate program to prove out sustainable innovations. >> > >> > The company has opened two experimental stores in Texas and Colorado >> > as test laboratories for various alternate power sources. The testing, >> > conducted by The National Renewable Energy Laboratory and Oak Ridge >> > National Laboratory, is ongoing. They have already determined that LED >> > lights have provided an excellent savings, but roof mounted solar >> > panels and wind turbines have proved less successful." >> > >> > >> > >> > What do you think, Jones? Steorn technology? >> > >> > Terry >> > >> >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 09:43:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FHhMgf030518; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:43:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FHhI3b030469; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:43:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:43:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hBKMGJcbKRW6KuLm6Xpa55oS+d6xB+NXOaGYArOZZCVTzQh/3WcQB2DS3SwHGK7jPB46VgQLDrSUUQQhF4YQzvSqC35JDJUI0JvBJMaXAki2olnXh4k7i0If1mMshpxynrMVjXhJyeIXMyTGyiUf9ZRvDdlKWjx7ck+yql7B9B4= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:43:10 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Supermag WTF? In-Reply-To: <45ABB9D0.6070306@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> <45ABB9D0.6070306@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72049 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wal-Mart On 1/15/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > leaking pen wrote: > > that they are the nations largest energy user? > > Yes, exactly! > > > Wouldn't surprise me. > > Shy of maybe some company that owns a lot of manufacturuing > > facilities. > > Like Nucor, or Alcoa, or GM, or GE, or .... > > I mean, a billion dollars a year to light lightbulbs?? > > Oh, I realize there's a lot more than that to it -- maybe they rolled > all corporate energy sinks together and it's actually their trucks that > are taking the lion's share? -- but it still seems like they shouldn't > be number 1. > > > > > > And most Walmart stores are indeed single story. And 24 hours a day, > > and in places where weather patterns means not much sunlight. Just > > sunlight isnt enough. > > > > On 1/14/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > >> > >> > >> Terry Blanton wrote: > >> > http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/070108/0200554.html > >> > > >> > "SuperVision "SuperMag" Designs New Power Systems for Wal-Mart to > >> > Solve $1 Billion Power Bill Problem > >> > Monday January 8, 4:00 am ET > >> > > >> > > >> > LOS ANGELES, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 8, 2007 -- SuperVision > >> > Entertainment Inc. (Other OTC:SVET.PK - News) -- Wal-Mart, the world's > >> > biggest retailer, is experimenting with a green building strategy > >> > aimed at cutting stores' energy usage. > >> > >> > In a recent news release from Wal-Mart, it was disclosed that the > >> > company is the nation's largest private energy user. > >> > >> That is the weirdest news I've seen in a long time! Is it for-real > >> true, or is it just chaff thrown out as part of a phony pump-and-dump > >> story? Anybody know for sure? > >> > >> > The 2074 > >> > supercenters located in the United States use an average of 1.5 > >> > million kilowatt-hours per year. Combined that is enough energy to > >> > power Chile. > >> > > >> > The 3,800-store chain's annual power bill totals a staggering $1 > >> > BILLION. Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott has committed to a corporate plan to > >> > reduce that amount by almost 30%, and is investing $500 million a year > >> > under a corporate program to prove out sustainable innovations. > >> > > >> > The company has opened two experimental stores in Texas and Colorado > >> > as test laboratories for various alternate power sources. The testing, > >> > conducted by The National Renewable Energy Laboratory and Oak Ridge > >> > National Laboratory, is ongoing. They have already determined that LED > >> > lights have provided an excellent savings, but roof mounted solar > >> > panels and wind turbines have proved less successful." > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > What do you think, Jones? Steorn technology? > >> > > >> > Terry > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 10:11:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FIBBZ8014003; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:11:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FIB8tP013980; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:11:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:11:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Y/LzfvY3MpTyGKC0kcvssZI7cJOusAHV8mXV1VbSdsYyocoZFCwM0df0u8o1vBgvS3BoicsRO20MU9O4gk8A8atXfBhHXDQQVRRu6h9SoWUbFKL1PbYbLQviZN0GpnZhdUtAxP5I7url28rJfwg4VT6HdxUXQGGW9JYM4VSIsxw= ; X-YMail-OSG: moSR.5sVM1mLX5RBuLTjLkwzMPINMBYsivxpj8wnvFQbl8RWE6i9eyNiii0bTilyNAe97Y83C.ol0t.qtt00S9YU6QSaBRkYLXBg9ktNPPumm.cgDWtjTQhq0dGqAKaE7EjnFzFkscvQ.R4- Message-ID: <45ABC3B2.1050706@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:10:58 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <357653710701150733r2b80fda1r223e692a7ad2db0e@mail.gmail.com> <45ABB3EC.1060206@pacbell.net> <357653710701150908s4a1f0665ld62081990a324710@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <357653710701150908s4a1f0665ld62081990a324710@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72050 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: d'Alemberts paradox in super fluids Status: O X-Status: David Jonsson wrote: > No, I can't see that. Isn't capillary force a Casimir force and thus ZPE > dependent. Yes - partly, perhaps - but this does not have to be an either/or situation; but still it is true that d'Alemberts paradox may not be involved. At any rate: some of this is just "thinking aloud" or by free-association in the context of overunity On the surface at least (no pun intended) one would think that either an effect approaching superfluidity, but at room temperature, or "negative viscosity" would permit some kind of demonstration of "free energy". Perhaps the connection between the two exists only in the possibility of an end-result: finding so-called "perpetual motion" or anti-gravity. PERPMO alert! Read the following at your own risk of being converted into the dreaded realm of pathological science. [Not to mention: 'Aloha Charlie', the micro-diode-guy should get a charge out of this demon of an idea since it echoes some of the sentiment of the mega-diode chip] Negative viscosity is or was the partial premise behind the idea which was posted to the Maxwell's Demon forum some time ago: The phenomenon of increased capillary efficiency at micro dimensions especially when combined with the electrical phenomenon of "needle emission" could permit perpetual motion, if properly implemented, as below. The observation that there is a non-zero "free" field emission from the tips of conductive "needles," to the extent that space charge effects can be mitigated - is known as the "needle emission" effect. Combine that with the assumption that free or minimally bound electrons will serve to increase buoyancy in a liquid and "voila"... More details. The 'space charge' in such a device would be mitigated by a continuous flow of a liquid like water in a closed circuit loop ... which would make it into a "perpetual" Demon by rising against gravity... IF (big if)... there is a substantial natural electron buoyancy effect along with the other effects. A liquid with less dielectric constant might be preferable to water however: not sure if you want free electrons or an attached charge. Anyway... The normal kind of capillary action found in nature has never found its way into a working "Demon" despite numerous attempts. This proposed enhancement would be a true Maxwell's Demon since electron emission always involves removing heat, whereas "just" capillary action (as found in biological life) may not. The Cathode in this situation would be cooler than the anode-even if both were effectively grounded, or shorted through a diode to each other. The idea would be that in the comimg years, advances in micro-lithography will permit a large population of perhaps 10^8/cm^2 of hollow nano-needles (maybe more) to be fabricated (etched) along with pores so that fluid is allowed to flow through. These hollow needles are etched onto a cathode/diode chip, so that milliamps/cm^2 of electrons can be emitted from ground into a moving stream of liquid passing through pores etched in that cathode, and then collected above it by a grounded anode at the surface. Recent advances in capillary science have demonstrated that there is negative viscosity effect (seems to be negative since water will be climbing against a pressure gradient much faster than normal capillary action. This apparent negative viscosity probably partly explains Jason Holt's statement, "As you shrink pore size, there is a huge enhancement in flow rate....It's something that is quite counter-intuitive," says LLNL chemical engineer Jason Holt, whose findings appeared in the 19 May 2006 issue of "Science." http://www.sciencemag.org/content/vol312/issue5776/index.dtl [you must have a subsrcition to view] Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 10:38:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FIbkj9029479; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:37:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FIbjbi029452; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:37:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:37:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:37:42 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: seacrete In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <971Kw.A.BMH.4n8qFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72051 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I saw an article in the 1970s about this, about using rebar as electrodes and growing hemisphere domes. Then years later there was another article: there were no mineral deposits, instead the concrete was made of coral. Apparently something about the electrode was attracting the free-swimming coral larvae (planulae) to attach to the metal instead of to the usual rock. The technique might work great, but it won't work in cold seas or fresh water where there are no coral reefs to supply the larvae. On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > Seacrete (I don't know if this name is dominant) is a > concrete like, limestone like, deposit that will collect > on anodes immersed in seawater. This could be a cheap and > durable building material. My source didn't say if ocean > metals were deposited on the associated cathodes or could > be with modifications. > > Aloha, Charlie > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 10:55:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FItFd7014935; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:55:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FItDJd014916; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:55:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:55:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-CVTV-Spamfilter: Scanned X-Virus-Scanned: by Clam Antivirus on mail.cvtv.net Message-ID: <001501c738cd$cbba3de0$a2027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:51:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7389B.80655780" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72052 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: V2K and gangstalking Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7389B.80655780 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C7389B.806864C0" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C7389B.806864C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Hmmm.. http://snipurl.com/17h4m > I've talked to people who hear voices in their heads. Howdy Vorts, Just goes to show that the Washington Post using five pages of print can = perform wonder with numbers while eating cucumbers. Shucks, my great grand daddy had a cousin way back around 1840's, lived = out on the San Saba river ( little north of LBJ's ranch). Seems uncle = Jethro was looking for Jim Bowies lost gold mine ( chuckle chuckle) . = Ole Jim Bowie had sold Jethro a genuine absolute real authenic copy of a = map of the mine ( complete with goatskin agewd parchment and stained = with coffee and tobacckey) Uncle Jethro used to hear voices in his head while laying awake in his = soddy house late at night along the San Saba river. One night he noticed = a small hole forming in the mud roof with sand and dirt falling through. = Being a natuaral born humorist and prankster.. Jethro put on his hat and = rammed his head up through the hole.. sure gave those Lipan Apache = indians a fright to see his smiling face. Wasn't until he took off his = hat to show his bald head glowing in the moonlight that the Apaches "got = religion". Don't know if those indians had any sexual stirrings from the = experience..but.. the cabin roof sure smelled like horse dung for = awhile. The trouble with those amatoor writers for the Washington Post is they = lack imagination.. mind control?? voices?? microwaves?? Give us a = break... Even LBJ came up with a better story than that .. and he became = President of the hu hes hey. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C7389B.806864C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
 
Hmmm..

 http://snipurl.com/17h4m

>= ; I've=20 talked to people who hear voices in their heads.

Howdy Vorts,

Just goes to show that the Washington Post using five pages of print = can=20 perform wonder with numbers while eating cucumbers.

Shucks, my great grand daddy had a cousin way back around 1840's, = lived out=20 on the San Saba river ( little north of LBJ's ranch).   Seems = uncle=20 Jethro was looking for Jim Bowies lost gold mine ( chuckle chuckle) . = Ole Jim=20 Bowie had sold Jethro a genuine absolute real authenic copy of a map of = the mine=20 ( complete with goatskin agewd parchment and stained with coffee and=20 tobacckey)

Uncle Jethro used to hear voices in his head while laying awake in = his soddy=20 house late at night along the San Saba river. One night he noticed a = small hole=20 forming in the mud roof with sand and dirt falling through. Being a = natuaral=20 born humorist and prankster.. Jethro put on his hat and rammed his head = up=20 through the hole.. sure gave those Lipan Apache indians a fright to = see his=20 smiling face. Wasn't until he took off his hat to show his bald head = glowing in=20 the moonlight that the Apaches "got religion".

Don't know if those indians had any sexual stirrings from the=20 experience..but.. the cabin roof sure smelled like horse dung for = awhile.

The trouble with those amatoor writers for the Washington Post is = they lack=20 imagination.. mind control?? voices?? microwaves?? Give us a break... = Even LBJ=20 came up with a better story than that .. and he became President of the = hu hes=20 hey.

Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C7389B.806864C0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7389B.80655780 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001001c738cd$cae8e420$a2027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7389B.80655780-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 11:51:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FJobKA018946; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:50:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FJoZJg018913; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:50:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:50:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 19:49:40 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72053 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: ambient heat recyclers Status: O X-Status: Unbiased emission from needle arrays into electron gas is support for the Ambient Heat Recycler developers. Please cite the experimental evidence. A strong citation will encourage Nanolab a nano research company to try the diode array. A needle array is a diode array using vacuum diodes. Electrical power should power a load placed externally between the needle array cathode and the smooth surface plate ( plate is a vacuum tube era synonym for anode). The space charge is reduced when current is drained through the plate and through the load. I would also like to see experimental evidence that gases will be moved by their thermal kinetic energy from the throat through the divergent section and out of the mouth in nanometer scale nozzles reinforcing each other in an array. I don't know why alt energy enthusiasts have skipped over ambient thermal random motion which is high in gases and near zero for solids for quantum indeterminacy which is a smaller effect and not differentiated by material. I would ask the nanofabricators to experiment with diode anode packing densities of a hundred billion per square centimeter. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 12:12:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FKBsgH029211; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:11:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FKBmjp029178; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:11:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:11:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:10:25 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE In-reply-to: <385979.20269.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72054 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > I agree for the most part. I would refer to such FRE > devices as AEM (ambient energy > movers) since there are almost as many interpretations > of the 2nd law as there are > physicists. Such AEM devices are not fiction, but a > fact. An LED connected to a resistor > emits photons. Albeit a low photon count, but such a > device could easily be 400 nanometers > square, thereby allowing 7 trillion devices in one > thin square meter panel. Perhaps the assembled components make a weak battery? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 12:19:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FKJhWj017378; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:19:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FKJeE3017358; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:19:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:19:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:18:16 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator In-reply-to: <1ae701c73891$98024f10$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0FKJYLA017283 Resent-Message-ID: <1u-XfB.A.JPE.cH-qFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72055 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Neat, but the calculator doesn't seem to work on my browser. Anyway, all else being equal, how much cooler would the temperature be if we used 10,000 times less energy? Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > I made this "online calculator" to estimate the global warming induced by NRE > use (Non Renewable Energy): > > http://www.google.com/search?q=300*%28+%281%2B++NREjoulesPerDay++%2F10%5E22%29 > %5E0.25-1%29 > > 1/ Click the link, ignore the results and double-click "NREjoulesPerDay" in > the search box to replace it by your projected value > > 2/ Click "Search" to get the corresponding global warming in °C. > > For example if you enter 100*1.2*10^18 (100 times the 2003 daily global energy > consumption, note that if we all had merely consumed as much energy per capita > as the Qatari that year we would have multiplied it by 13 already!) you get > 0.9°C. > > Almost 1°C is not benign, for a consumption boost factor which doesn't seem > unrealistic in the event of a new source of inexpensive NRE (hot fusion, cold > fusion, a new type of cheap fission, hydrinos, ZPE, whatever). > > Share and enjoy, > -- > Michel > > P.S. The formula is straightforwardly derived from the Stefan-Boltzmann fourth > power of T black body radiation formula, assuming: > - _ZERO_ excess of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere > - 300K present global average temperature > - 240W/m2 average absorbed (and therefore re-radiated) solar energy: 1370/4 = > 340W incident per m2, minus 100W/m2 reflected (30%), yielding 10^22 J/day for > the total globe surface area. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 13:21:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FLLWr5013286; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:21:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FLLTDM013265; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:21:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:21:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=czdAZmE6vpQsexBia2AGlsvukf9+dA8GQr2j7QdD5HW3+XC0ViJW9mUhbcO9Cx9k0OOmXg456h15I47cG6p8QHpo2zthlpI6Pvdx05kEbmzfPIfwZOD1/tpwkqDMEXon8idDwdbwokVVmBx4vjWwYLdsB3b5Evmv4H7KYzuBGF0= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:21:25 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: seacrete In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72056 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: intersting. that could be a way to guide rebuilding of damaged reefs. On 1/15/07, William Beaty wrote: > > I saw an article in the 1970s about this, about using rebar as electrodes > and growing hemisphere domes. > > Then years later there was another article: there were no mineral > deposits, instead the concrete was made of coral. Apparently something > about the electrode was attracting the free-swimming coral larvae > (planulae) to attach to the metal instead of to the usual rock. > > The technique might work great, but it won't work in cold seas or fresh > water where there are no coral reefs to supply the larvae. > > > > > > On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > > > Seacrete (I don't know if this name is dominant) is a > > concrete like, limestone like, deposit that will collect > > on anodes immersed in seawater. This could be a cheap and > > durable building material. My source didn't say if ocean > > metals were deposited on the associated cathodes or could > > be with modifications. > > > > Aloha, Charlie > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 425-222-5066 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 13:56:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FLu9uI030208; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:56:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FLu5C1030161; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:56:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:56:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 16:54:39 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72058 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Stiffler's magnetic effect on water Status: O X-Status: Any news regarding Stiffler's magnetic effect on water? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 13:58:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FLuMPr004034; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:56:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FLteff003695; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:55:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:55:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:55:33 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72057 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As luck may have it, the Steorn motor runs in reverse absorbing energy without getting hot -- 7.5 watts per gram of the motor. Problem solved. Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com Skype: hoyt_a._stearns_jr. -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 1:18 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator Neat, but the calculator doesn't seem to work on my browser. Anyway, all else being equal, how much cooler would the temperature be if we used 10,000 times less energy? Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > I made this "online calculator" to estimate the global warming induced by NRE > use (Non Renewable Energy): > > http://www.google.com/search?q=300*%28+%281%2B++NREjoulesPerDay++%2F10%5E22% 29 > %5E0.25-1%29 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 15:38:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0FNccfp011594; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:38:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0FNcZAG011568; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:38:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:38:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <25cb01c738fe$44c3f4d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 00:38:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0FNcVww011464 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72059 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Try this shorter link: http://tinyurl.com/vcusf and don't forget to replace "NREjoulesPerDay" by a numerical value or expression in the Google search box. For 10,000 times less NRE use than today you'll find no significant global cooling, because our present actual heat contribution is negligible compared to the Sun's. In the present global warming episode we provide the thermal insulation as the byproduct of a tiny bit of the heating, the Sun provides the bulk of the heating. In my computation I assume the excess greenhouse gas problem has been solved. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator > > Neat, but the calculator doesn't seem to work on my browser. > > Anyway, all else being equal, how much cooler would the temperature be if we > used 10,000 times less energy? > > Harry > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> I made this "online calculator" to estimate the global warming induced by NRE >> use (Non Renewable Energy): >> >> http://www.google.com/search?q=300*%28+%281%2B++NREjoulesPerDay++%2F10%5E22%29 >> %5E0.25-1%29 >> >> 1/ Click the link, ignore the results and double-click "NREjoulesPerDay" in >> the search box to replace it by your projected value >> >> 2/ Click "Search" to get the corresponding global warming in °C. >> >> For example if you enter 100*1.2*10^18 (100 times the 2003 daily global energy >> consumption, note that if we all had merely consumed as much energy per capita >> as the Qatari that year we would have multiplied it by 13 already!) you get >> 0.9°C. >> >> Almost 1°C is not benign, for a consumption boost factor which doesn't seem >> unrealistic in the event of a new source of inexpensive NRE (hot fusion, cold >> fusion, a new type of cheap fission, hydrinos, ZPE, whatever). >> >> Share and enjoy, >> -- >> Michel >> >> P.S. The formula is straightforwardly derived from the Stefan-Boltzmann fourth >> power of T black body radiation formula, assuming: >> - _ZERO_ excess of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere >> - 300K present global average temperature >> - 240W/m2 average absorbed (and therefore re-radiated) solar energy: 1370/4 = >> 340W incident per m2, minus 100W/m2 reflected (30%), yielding 10^22 J/day for >> the total globe surface area. >> > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 18:08:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0G287VC028863; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:08:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0G2809M028814; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:08:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:07:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 21:07:52 EST To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1168913272" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5352 X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: <3PHcbC.A._BH._NDrFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72060 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Ive become better at describing the ground state atomic orbits Status: O X-Status: -------------------------------1168913272 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In fact, I can now describe all atomic orbits _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html_ (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html) enjoy Frank Znidarsic -------------------------------1168913272 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In fact,  I can now describe all atomic orbits
 
http://www.angelf= ire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html
 
 
enjoy
 
Frank Znidarsic
 -------------------------------1168913272-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 18:35:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0G2YlSf025327; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:34:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0G2YfFT025276; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:34:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:34:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Supermag WTF? Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:34:32 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7beoq21drhevrp6l2thljb876t0cbqo1n4@4ax.com> References: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 16 Jan 2007 02:34:31 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0G2YWIL025240 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72061 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to leaking pen's message of Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:28:27 -0700: Hi, [snip] >And most Walmart stores are indeed single story. And 24 hours a day, >and in places where weather patterns means not much sunlight. Just >sunlight isnt enough. > It doesn't need to be. They can still adjust the electric lighting to match the conditions, but daylight would save a lot nevertheless. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 18:46:57 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0G2keOV016891; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:46:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0G2kdIY016863; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:46:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:46:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 02:45:44 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72062 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: LED array Status: O X-Status: The resistor / LED array would be useful as reliable and long lasting lights as always on and independent emergency exit illumination for buildings. It should be respected for that. I think the design needs to be improved to compete with the diode array. It may simplify to transparent metal oxide nanosphere LED anodes or cathodes on a special semiconductor substrate forming billions of nanometer scale LEDs in parallel feeding a high resistance load which does translate to an extremely high resistance load for each nanosphere LED. The rationale is that when the Johnson noise goes forward in one LED the array is loaded down to the optimal current and voltage point by the other 50% of the LEDs as all share the control resistor which can not impart extra noise. The higher forward voltage and much higher reverse voltage involved dictates a greater nanosphere LED spacing than nanopost diode array anodes need. The devices may be competitive in light panel applications. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 23:38:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0G7cF4X015379; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:38:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0G7cBmK015355; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:38:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:38:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45AC80A3.40500@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:37:07 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <43-wJC.A.pvD.iDIrFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72063 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steorn question Status: O X-Status: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: >As luck may have it, the Steorn motor runs in reverse absorbing energy without getting hot -- 7.5 watts per gram of the motor. Problem solved. > Did I mention that Steorn is licensing their technology? The question is, do they have anything to license? Do you have a URL for Steorns? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 15 23:44:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0G7ifaG001798; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:44:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0G7iclT001765; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:44:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:44:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=AB/8Y1eY3Mb2jAbLhw9ZP0c+AzIOPmmzLFOOkXa6DwSd/9cuflae5Y1SkmEw9s/kFvFX1yWNpNNZR+xL9xxLcRcVm6FHHPEwUVmsPsBzJ0vhvJeC7xTaEo7abbe6yWNI/2akTYDoouha/r/GZc2ZRZNY/Gfby4A7EskSGf99ghc= Message-ID: <538fa8f10701152344m6aafb474ga74c60634710589a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:44:35 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question In-Reply-To: <45AC80A3.40500@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_99750_33500551.1168933475214" References: <45AC80A3.40500@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72064 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_99750_33500551.1168933475214 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://steorn.com/en/news.aspx?p=2&id=981 youtube and googlevideo do have quite a bit of steorn material on their archives. On 16/01/07, thomas malloy wrote: > > Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > >As luck may have it, the Steorn motor runs in reverse absorbing energy > without getting hot -- 7.5 watts per gram of the motor. Problem solved. > Did I mention that Steorn is licensing their technology? The question > is, do they have anything to license? Do you have a URL for Steorns? > ------=_Part_99750_33500551.1168933475214 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://steorn.com/en/news.aspx?p=2&id=981
youtube and googlevideo do have quite a bit of steorn material on their archives.


On 16/01/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote:
>As luck may have it, the Steorn motor runs in reverse absorbing energy without getting hot -- 7.5 watts per gram of the motor. Problem solved.
Did I mention that Steorn is licensing their technology? The question
is, do they have anything to license? Do you have a URL for Steorns?
------=_Part_99750_33500551.1168933475214-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 00:46:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0G8kBpk024692; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 00:46:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0G8kAxQ024677; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 00:46:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 00:46:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=TGdJ+Srrby66aqwtzAWgzuj/Q2E4n3OKb8GOENSgi+0c+2zYTQgsvaakoapcCVyrbxz79XeDe0xkaClNDkQhIPlBXq2eaGCJisQQrc3Lg4rZansQS8JUHeqGXJM4v4Bkt08x/OVTq5M6pKxEBmt/wwh9uicjSN2scwvO6eCQKh8= Message-ID: <538fa8f10701160046k6a029b7ck8e037a379a8eaf16@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:46:05 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10701152344m6aafb474ga74c60634710589a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_100331_31144395.1168937165202" References: <45AC80A3.40500@usfamily.net> <538fa8f10701152344m6aafb474ga74c60634710589a@mail.gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72065 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_100331_31144395.1168937165202 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0BTJFPSBEA does this shed any light to the matter On 16/01/07, Esa Ruoho wrote: > > http://steorn.com/en/news.aspx?p=2&id=981 > youtube and googlevideo do have quite a bit of steorn material on their > archives. > > > On 16/01/07, thomas malloy wrote: > > > > Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > > >As luck may have it, the Steorn motor runs in reverse absorbing energy > > without getting hot -- 7.5 watts per gram of the motor. Problem solved. > > Did I mention that Steorn is licensing their technology? The question > > is, do they have anything to license? Do you have a URL for Steorns? > > > ------=_Part_100331_31144395.1168937165202 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0BTJFPSBEA
does this shed any light to the matter


On 16/01/07, Esa Ruoho <esaruoho@gmail.com> wrote:
http://steorn.com/en/news.aspx?p=2&id=981
youtube and googlevideo do have quite a bit of steorn material on their archives.



On 16/01/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote:
>As luck may have it, the Steorn motor runs in reverse absorbing energy without getting hot -- 7.5 watts per gram of the motor. Problem solved.
Did I mention that Steorn is licensing their technology? The question
is, do they have anything to license? Do you have a URL for Steorns?

------=_Part_100331_31144395.1168937165202-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 02:03:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GA2pm7001675; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 02:03:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0G9nwwR027038; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:49:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:49:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:48:46 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <538fa8f10701160046k6a029b7ck8e037a379a8eaf16@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72066 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Why aren't people more clear about the steorn motor and say that it gets colder as it creates mechanical power? Then the motor would be a type of Ambient Heat Recycling machine which is revolutionary but possible. Diode array can compete with them. Reference: On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:46:05 +0200 "Esa Ruoho" wrote: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0BTJFPSBEA >does this shed any light to the matter > > >On 16/01/07, Esa Ruoho wrote: >> >> http://steorn.com/en/news.aspx?p=2&id=981 >> youtube and googlevideo do have quite a bit of steorn >>material on their >> archives. >> >> >> On 16/01/07, thomas malloy >>wrote: >> > >> > Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: >> > >As luck may have it, the Steorn motor runs in reverse >>absorbing energy >> > without getting hot -- 7.5 watts per gram of the >>motor. Problem solved. >> > Did I mention that Steorn is licensing their >>technology? The question >> > is, do they have anything to license? Do you have a >>URL for Steorns? >> > >> From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 02:35:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GAYsCx014248; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 02:34:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GAYrg0014233; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 02:34:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 02:34:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=VTGd6lQ9hnkYaq7WsMHbQVQc0YZuzlTdEX/BMN4jVBOCm7y5S4c+ZpLZoF8HNXxdFFNxPdgcSCGxcFrMUomgK/0hVpLlzIjoUBvwNXN19G1URG2MRl7swZZNtVoBxD0KyNg5OWGKeUvNcNsJFKx0C9fGQ6IQTkECA7/OctPiAI8= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 23:34:45 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11326_575443.1168943685856" References: <538fa8f10701160046k6a029b7ck8e037a379a8eaf16@mail.gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72067 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_11326_575443.1168943685856 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Because it doesn't. On 1/16/07, abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > > Why aren't people more clear about the steorn motor and > say that it gets colder as it creates mechanical power? > Then the motor would be a type of Ambient Heat Recycling > machine which is revolutionary but possible. Diode array > can compete with them. > > Reference: > On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:46:05 +0200 > "Esa Ruoho" wrote: > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0BTJFPSBEA > >does this shed any light to the matter > > > > > >On 16/01/07, Esa Ruoho wrote: > >> > >> http://steorn.com/en/news.aspx?p=2&id=981 > >> youtube and googlevideo do have quite a bit of steorn > >>material on their > >> archives. > >> > >> > >> On 16/01/07, thomas malloy > >>wrote: > >> > > >> > Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > >> > >As luck may have it, the Steorn motor runs in reverse > >>absorbing energy > >> > without getting hot -- 7.5 watts per gram of the > >>motor. Problem solved. > >> > Did I mention that Steorn is licensing their > >>technology? The question > >> > is, do they have anything to license? Do you have a > >>URL for Steorns? > >> > > >> > > ------=_Part_11326_575443.1168943685856 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Because it doesn't.

On 1/16/07, abundance@logonbasic.com < abundance@logonbasic.com> wrote:
Why aren't people more clear about the steorn motor and
say that it gets colder as it creates mechanical power?
Then the motor would be a type of Ambient Heat Recycling
machine which is revolutionary but possible. Diode array
can compete with them.

Reference:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:46:05 +0200
  "Esa Ruoho" <esaruoho@gmail.com> wrote:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0BTJFPSBEA
>does this shed any light to the matter
>
>
>On 16/01/07, Esa Ruoho <esaruoho@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> http://steorn.com/en/news.aspx?p=2&id=981
>> youtube and googlevideo do have quite a bit of steorn
>>material on their
>> archives.
>>
>>
>> On 16/01/07, thomas malloy < temalloy@usfamily.net>
>>wrote:
>> >
>> > Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote:
>> > >As luck may have it, the Steorn motor runs in reverse
>>absorbing energy
>> > without getting hot -- 7.5 watts per gram of the
>>motor. Problem solved.
>> > Did I mention that Steorn is licensing their
>>technology? The question
>> > is, do they have anything to license? Do you have a
>>URL for Steorns?
>> >
>>


------=_Part_11326_575443.1168943685856-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 04:16:59 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GCGeU4030677; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 04:16:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GCGaSl030656; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 04:16:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 04:16:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=n1vqx4DhWDWpwRdzsO8U9oSTwt8C8DSLAIJ1Gz67eBlfRlNHS2R46UyrEI5ihbcfWaFpJNGglG4Lo6dqGevatfnZ+OEUksogZVW803PHpZKiUrrIZs1m1ptgrR9qH2dEdxLgqtFdOSOlPHPJU66tbW+5amMXgynGliHJtfbVoRk= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 07:16:30 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question In-Reply-To: <45AC80A3.40500@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45AC80A3.40500@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72068 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: www.steorn.net On 1/16/07, thomas malloy wrote: > Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > > >As luck may have it, the Steorn motor runs in reverse absorbing energy without getting hot -- 7.5 watts per gram of the motor. Problem solved. > > > Did I mention that Steorn is licensing their technology? The question > is, do they have anything to license? Do you have a URL for Steorns? > > > --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 06:36:34 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GEaEiZ007017; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 06:36:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GEaCKm006976; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 06:36:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 06:36:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <266101c7397b$a9a37150$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45AC80A3.40500@usfamily.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:36:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0GEa8Na006895 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72069 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The link doesn't work for me. There is a good Wikipedia article on Steorn, and there is some talk about the licensing scheme there: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2219002 where someone judiciously pointed out: " Quote: Dublin, 11th January 2007: Steorn, the Irish technology development company, has today announced that its free energy technology will be made widely available to the development community immediately after the independent scientific validation process that is currently underway. It's almost as if they already know what the "jury" is going to say." If the whole thing is a marketing stunt it's an excellent one. If it's a scam... it's an excellent one too :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question > www.steorn.net > > On 1/16/07, thomas malloy wrote: >> Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: >> >> >As luck may have it, the Steorn motor runs in reverse absorbing energy without getting hot -- 7.5 watts per gram of the motor. Problem solved. >> > >> Did I mention that Steorn is licensing their technology? The question >> is, do they have anything to license? Do you have a URL for Steorns? >> >> >> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 07:41:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GF74fF024768; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 07:07:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GF73Ys024762; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 07:07:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 07:07:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: EFV4_IgVM1laV6ExhZUeLZ6785Uhp.tIVDag2UNIGAMELVLZ28fG5ITGiee.uiwtHOSOJc4WdTz7gh9scnpZklrh6M1GKhLqeEzl5qKqpkOKlyS3dunjONJqHfaUTMZu68SlZsv1FUinsWM- Message-ID: <45ACE881.5030503@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:00:17 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72070 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > Why aren't people more clear about the steorn motor and say that it gets > colder as it creates mechanical power? Because it doesn't. It's a magnetic motor -- permanent-magnet-based engine -- and there's no mechanism for it to "steal heat" from the environment, nor any evidence whatsoever that it does so. It's type-1 perpetual motion: violation of the first law, which is conservation of energy. If the Steorn motor works, then a Steorn motor operating in a closed environment will warm up that environment. You're talking about type-2 perpetual motion: violation of the second law, with energy moving "uphill" against a thermal gradient. If your idea for diode arrays works, then when it's operating in a closed environment, it will make no net difference to the temperature of that environment. > Then the motor would be a type of > Ambient Heat Recycling machine which is revolutionary but possible. > Diode array can compete with them. > > Reference: > On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:46:05 +0200 > "Esa Ruoho" wrote: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0BTJFPSBEA >> does this shed any light to the matter >> >> >> On 16/01/07, Esa Ruoho wrote: >>> >>> http://steorn.com/en/news.aspx?p=2&id=981 >>> youtube and googlevideo do have quite a bit of steorn material on their >>> archives. >>> >>> >>> On 16/01/07, thomas malloy wrote: >>> > >>> > Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: >>> > >As luck may have it, the Steorn motor runs in reverse absorbing >>> energy >>> > without getting hot -- 7.5 watts per gram of the motor. Problem >>> solved. >>> > Did I mention that Steorn is licensing their technology? The question >>> > is, do they have anything to license? Do you have a URL for Steorns? >>> > >>> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 08:26:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GGPmf6032561; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 08:25:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GGPjxx032530; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 08:25:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 08:25:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=uFnBqugikj95I7GebfiJSE//5PVbVWKxVq3ONL6qOHWgIiRG58fQj+I/GoSVEExD8M73Zl0q7EBXqWZpgVdx8fBVKftMbsSV9HTBqmR9Ba5ZsEBnhUXmCucqP4jy1BO65ecmF6J5U3QkERH3AjHcTbMSEN7B7qcXeZDtZlWQ5t8=; X-YMail-OSG: JnbEKqsVM1m9HtiTAGKdh8NmlSE1ijB1SluPi8MY_ir.vwiiTCVyhNdO5gWjhTumjwmbLPwBMADrGMGiQe6ei52CrAdsgvvpp95pOxB0AKU.AIx6e80E543Sj3dzjgqc05S_TuEfWzPtq8yrWgxicQP. Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 08:25:39 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <71281.58906.qm@web62414.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <8Xk6CC.A.M8H.IyPrFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72071 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > Why aren't people more clear about the steorn motor and say that it gets > colder as it creates mechanical power? Then the motor would be a type of > Ambient Heat Recycling machine which is revolutionary but possible. > Diode array can compete with them. Steorn claims to have performed temperature tests, but we don't know the competence of their tests. We don't know how much power was generated and the machines size during such temperature tests. If the motor size to power ratio was large then it could be difficult to detect temperature change due to thermal conductivity leakage. Another option is the energy comes from a sea of energy we call space. Some have referred to it as Aether, quantum foam, ZPE, or simply Space. It's my belief that space is a sea of plasmic energy far higher than 1E+24 Hz and up to ~1E+34 Hz. It appears that so-called elementary particles such as electrons are waves of multidimensional energy patterns dancing around as a drop of water on a hot skillet. Such chaos could explain for the limitations as claimed by QM. If the Steorn energy comes from such a sea of energy, Space, then it would be next to impossible to detect a in temperature drop since Space would quickly conduct to surrounding Space to reach equilibrium. The temperature drop would be immeasurable with present instruments. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 08:53:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GGo9um013544; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 08:52:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GGliPn008548; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 08:47:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 08:47:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=avLjD1uJUPPQww4+FPL11tjBQFswSM9otwktGerWlFU5NDtxarvllFf7TnYMSrRhd3ggQ996hPGW3g3VqTML+VkZJPAtZLKPR6dvzCYGj2sq2KO/8II/YHKIWl4PEqmPflFtcnB2y6Y9nD+6ARAxdrv85mcFoHkHxvciwauaZ1k=; X-YMail-OSG: WLPfZOkVM1n460eALttnIjozNkishTlynmciLWQLT8feQ97JY2bELDKepKIBFcwpRfZEU70nvElv_Fb5RfUvt.hDSuQqsbYuf.H8qS.V1bsiZJM1CMgzzOVQiUMmJzVJf27I.Wg18FumL2kDuTtAAIiooSk6TRszgvm03lYMi5ZP_jbyIirFAkA1mG0- Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 08:40:57 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <201572.10898.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <5uAit.A.PFC.uGQrFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72072 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: >> Why aren't people more clear about the steorn motor and say that it >> gets colder as it creates mechanical power? > > Because it doesn't. It's a magnetic motor -- permanent-magnet-based > engine -- and there's no mechanism for it to "steal heat" from the > environment, nor any evidence whatsoever that it does so. That's not a true statement. Permanent magnets are magnetic materials with relatively high coercivity. When one studies MCE (Magnetocaloric effect) they learn about such effects such as micro and nano magnetic avalanches, etc. It is possible to rob ambient energy from magnetic materials as I have my proof in way of highly sensitive temperature measurements with certain magnetic materials. > It's type-1 perpetual motion: violation of the first law, which is > conservation of energy. If the Steorn motor works, then a Steorn motor > operating in a closed environment will warm up that environment. > > You're talking about type-2 perpetual motion: violation of the second > law, with energy moving "uphill" against a thermal gradient. If your > idea for diode arrays works, then when it's operating in a closed > environment, it will make no net difference to the temperature of that > environment. That's simply not true. An LED connected to a resistor generates photons. All LED's dissipate energy below the forward voltage, as there's no lower limit. Furthermore, there's no upper crest voltage limit to *real* noise. The photon energy emitted from the LED comes from the resistors ambient energy. If you focus the photons on a solar cell, and connect the solar cell to a battery then you are essentially converting the kinetic energy in ambient temperature to potential energy in the battery, which does *indeed* drop the overall temperature with in the closed system. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance [snip] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 09:56:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GHuGn4011593; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:56:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GHuE5T011558; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:56:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:56:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 2v0qzb8VM1llo4amsaxsBMAt3oyS9sBPsuxHM_Xjrc490tsd087PbQe_pnZ9JPJ3GcuS4VjGD7hfnWqIXZ8FkD7O2zkxFa.P5qnIYDhgy9ROujeI_Gv81pVXVIHDECB22GfxTqvKnggf8g-- Message-ID: <45AD11B8.80300@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:56:08 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question References: <201572.10898.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <201572.10898.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72073 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > >> Why aren't people more clear about the steorn motor and say that > >> it gets colder as it creates mechanical power? > > > > Because it doesn't. It's a magnetic motor -- > > permanent-magnet-based engine -- and there's no mechanism for it > > to "steal heat" from the environment, nor any evidence whatsoever > > that it does so. > > That's not a true statement. Permanent magnets are magnetic > materials with relatively high coercivity. When one studies MCE > (Magnetocaloric effect) they learn about such effects such as micro > and nano magnetic avalanches, etc. It is possible to rob ambient > energy from magnetic materials as I have my proof in way of highly > sensitive temperature measurements with certain magnetic materials. Maybe, but as far as I can make out the Steorn motor is a "classic" magmo in which specific orientations of permanent magnets in varying magnetic fields are used to gain macroscopic kinetic energy from the macroscopic (fixed) fields of the permanent magnets. That's based on the notion that the force generated by a permanent magnet is non-conservative. It has nothing to do with stealing internal energy from the magnet. If you feel my statement about the Steorn motor is false, I'd appreciate it if you could show some documentation (like, text from their website, maybe) indicating that the Steorn motor uses the MCE to steal thermal energy from the magnets (made of exotic materials?). As someone pointed out, a Steorn motor "run backwards" would cool things off, converting thermal energy into nothing. But a Steorn motor "run frontwards" warms things up, generating thermal energy from nothing. > > It's type-1 perpetual motion: violation of the first law, which > > is conservation of energy. If the Steorn motor works, then a > > Steorn motor operating in a closed environment will warm up that > > environment. > > > > You're talking about type-2 perpetual motion: violation of the > > second law, with energy moving "uphill" against a thermal > > gradient. If your idea for diode arrays works, then when it's > > operating in a closed environment, it will make no net difference > > to the temperature of that environment. > > That's simply not true. An LED connected to a resistor generates > photons. Energy is conserved in this scenario; the energy from the photons comes from the "noise" electric current, and the resistor cools slightly as the photons are generated due to the net slowing of the conduction electrons, but the photons are carrying energy, which when converted back to heat warms the environment up again. And pulling useful energy from a single thermal pool is absolutely a violation of the second law of thermodynamics. > All LED's dissipate energy below the forward voltage, as there's no > lower limit. Furthermore, there's no upper crest voltage limit to > *real* noise. The photon energy emitted from the LED comes from the > resistors ambient energy. If you focus the photons on a solar cell, > and connect the solar cell to a battery then you are essentially > converting the kinetic energy in ambient temperature to potential > energy in the battery, which does *indeed* drop the overall > temperature with in the closed system. :-) OK, you're right about that. Until the energy in the battery is used again, the average temperature of the system will be lower. You're converting thermal energy to chemical energy. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 10:40:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GIeKod031297; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:40:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GIeImT031286; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:40:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:40:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:39:04 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator In-reply-to: <25cb01c738fe$44c3f4d0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0GIeGda031262 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72074 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: With both links all I get is "Your search - 300*( (1+ NREjoulesPerDay /10^22)^0.25-1) - did not match any documents." Is it because I use internet explorer 5.1 ? Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > Try this shorter link: http://tinyurl.com/vcusf > and don't forget to replace "NREjoulesPerDay" by a numerical value or > expression in the Google search box. > > For 10,000 times less NRE use than today you'll find no significant global > cooling, because our present actual heat contribution is negligible compared > to the Sun's. In the present global warming episode we provide the thermal > insulation as the byproduct of a tiny bit of the heating, the Sun provides the > bulk of the heating. In my computation I assume the excess greenhouse gas > problem has been solved. > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator > > >> >> Neat, but the calculator doesn't seem to work on my browser. >> >> Anyway, all else being equal, how much cooler would the temperature be if we >> used 10,000 times less energy? >> >> Harry >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> >>> I made this "online calculator" to estimate the global warming induced by >>> NRE >>> use (Non Renewable Energy): >>> >>> http://www.google.com/search?q=300*%28+%281%2B++NREjoulesPerDay++%2F10%5E22% >>> 29 >>> %5E0.25-1%29 >>> >>> 1/ Click the link, ignore the results and double-click "NREjoulesPerDay" in >>> the search box to replace it by your projected value >>> >>> 2/ Click "Search" to get the corresponding global warming in °C. >>> >>> For example if you enter 100*1.2*10^18 (100 times the 2003 daily global >>> energy >>> consumption, note that if we all had merely consumed as much energy per >>> capita >>> as the Qatari that year we would have multiplied it by 13 already!) you get >>> 0.9°C. >>> >>> Almost 1°C is not benign, for a consumption boost factor which doesn't seem >>> unrealistic in the event of a new source of inexpensive NRE (hot fusion, >>> cold >>> fusion, a new type of cheap fission, hydrinos, ZPE, whatever). >>> >>> Share and enjoy, >>> -- >>> Michel >>> >>> P.S. The formula is straightforwardly derived from the Stefan-Boltzmann >>> fourth >>> power of T black body radiation formula, assuming: >>> - _ZERO_ excess of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere >>> - 300K present global average temperature >>> - 240W/m2 average absorbed (and therefore re-radiated) solar energy: 1370/4 >>> = >>> 340W incident per m2, minus 100W/m2 reflected (30%), yielding 10^22 J/day >>> for >>> the total globe surface area. >>> >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 11:12:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GJBscG003069; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:11:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GJBrfX003051; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:11:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:11:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:07:57 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE In-reply-to: <956542.17595.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72075 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: >> Paul wrote: >> >>> Harry Veeder wrote: >> >>> As Harry clearly understood, the future energy >>> production will increase exponentially if >>> people have "free energy." >> >> That is not exactly what I meant. >> Regardless of whether energy is "free" or not >> in the future, if heat production continues to grow >> at the current rate humanity will become > non-trivial >> producers of heat. > > Sounds exactly what you said. Our rate of energy > production is exponential. Given > unlimited "free energy" such energy usage will explode > worldwide. It is hard to know how exactly the usage will "explode". I expect the "free" energy will support a greater diversity of socio-economic relationships. > >>> Why would a scientist put forth so much effort in >>> building a machine that *adds* energy >>> when it is far easier to build a machine that > *moves* >>> ambient energy? >> >> If we only build the sorts of devices you are > proposing >> then, if too much ambient energy is *moved* into > the motion of vehicles >> and machines, we might be at risk of a global > cooling. > > It's called an energy *moving*, not an energy > destroyer. :-) > Yes, but if you can convert ambient heat into macroscopic motion without a pre-existing thermal gradient that would reduce ambient temperature. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 11:33:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GJU2MS013666; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:32:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GJMrnG009042; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:22:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:22:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:21:34 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE In-reply-to: <677395.48820.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72076 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Jed Rothwell wrote: >> Paul wrote: >> >>> This creates temperature gradients. My point was > that present rise in >>> temperatures will be a drop in the bucket with > global "free energy" >>> unless we develop FRE (Free Recyclable Energy) > machines. >> >> You are assuming that people will act > irresponsibly, and ignore clear & >> present dangers. People sometimes do that, but not > always. > > All human behavior studies I've seen have demonstrate > people in modern society usually > hoard *if* they can get away with it. Because generally it is a society run on the shame of having "less", rather than on the fun of having "more". Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 11:35:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GJZ6ej002816; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:35:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GJZ59a002792; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:35:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:35:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=5xI2Fg22uA7Y+TW701pOTQFQ+4s6QxIJ71M603zf4Ozlb3CMp7UvpUrXGTe0nBPPtM+ttU9401kFTImP0XagoRHq5Vc9yHgdgkt9RotskZ2vRxpbq3Qg4OTWlJXgRjg2auAm+6tx+VE3U/MGe3v/8+LRbKAKV9V/uGBu9GsWPh0=; X-YMail-OSG: DzH_0awVM1lurhZ7a13aBipK2WCXYJG_6jjPWA6U Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:35:03 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <271622.35232.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72077 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Paul wrote: > > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > > >> Why aren't people more clear about the steorn motor and say that > > >> it gets colder as it creates mechanical power? > > > > > > Because it doesn't. It's a magnetic motor -- > > > permanent-magnet-based engine -- and there's no mechanism for it > > > to "steal heat" from the environment, nor any evidence whatsoever > > > that it does so. > > > > That's not a true statement. Permanent magnets are magnetic > > materials with relatively high coercivity. When one studies MCE > > (Magnetocaloric effect) they learn about such effects such as micro > > and nano magnetic avalanches, etc. It is possible to rob ambient > > energy from magnetic materials as I have my proof in way of highly > > sensitive temperature measurements with certain magnetic materials. > > Maybe, but as far as I can make out the Steorn motor is a "classic" > magmo in which specific orientations of permanent magnets in varying > magnetic fields are used to gain macroscopic kinetic energy from the > macroscopic (fixed) fields of the permanent magnets. That's based on > the notion that the force generated by a permanent magnet is > non-conservative. It has nothing to do with stealing internal energy > from the magnet. > > If you feel my statement about the Steorn motor is false, I'd > appreciate it if you could show some documentation (like, text from > their website, maybe) indicating that the Steorn motor uses the MCE to > steal thermal energy from the magnets (made of exotic materials?). > > As someone pointed out, a Steorn motor "run backwards" would cool > things off, converting thermal energy into nothing. But a Steorn > motor "run frontwards" warms things up, generating thermal energy > from nothing. That's just it. As far as I'm aware Steorn has yet to release any appreciable details. We do not know how competent, sensitive, or accurate their temperature tests were. > > > It's type-1 perpetual motion: violation of the first law, which > > > is conservation of energy. If the Steorn motor works, then a > > > Steorn motor operating in a closed environment will warm up that > > > environment. > > > > > > You're talking about type-2 perpetual motion: violation of the > > > second law, with energy moving "uphill" against a thermal > > > gradient. If your idea for diode arrays works, then when it's > > > operating in a closed environment, it will make no net difference > > > to the temperature of that environment. > > > > That's simply not true. An LED connected to a resistor generates > > photons. > > Energy is conserved in this scenario; Indeed, which is why I stated, " you are essentially converting the kinetic energy in ambient temperature to potential energy in the battery" > the energy from the photons > comes from the "noise" electric current, and the resistor cools > slightly as the photons are generated due to the net slowing of the > conduction electrons, but the photons are carrying energy, which when > converted back to heat warms the environment up again. Perhaps you missed the part regarding the photons being focused on the solar cell, which is connected to a battery. Again, kinetic ambient energy is being converted to potential energy in the battery and the net temperature drops. > And pulling useful energy from a single thermal pool is absolutely a > violation of the second law of thermodynamics. ... Sorry, I become unglued when discussing the 2nd law. :-( Wikipedia has a nice quote from Physicists P.W. Bridgman, (1941) "There are almost as many formulations of the second law as there have been discussions of it." It depends how rigid you adhere to the 2nd law. It's a "works most of the time" law. The law should only apply to random unintelligence such as natural thermal occurrences, etc. By means of intelligence the 2nd law is breakable-- for example, the design of LED's. Although that's not to suggest there are no natural 2nd law violations. No offense intended to anyone, but it's the most ridiculous and blind sighted thought to believe one cannot extract usable energy from moving and vibrating objects regardless if they are planets, basketballs, molecules, or even atoms. > > All LED's dissipate energy below the forward voltage, as there's no > > lower limit. Furthermore, there's no upper crest voltage limit to > > *real* noise. The photon energy emitted from the LED comes from the > > resistors ambient energy. If you focus the photons on a solar cell, > > and connect the solar cell to a battery then you are essentially > > converting the kinetic energy in ambient temperature to potential > > energy in the battery, which does *indeed* drop the overall > > temperature with in the closed system. :-) > > OK, you're right about that. Until the energy in the battery is used > again, the average temperature of the system will be lower. You're > converting thermal energy to chemical energy. In the case of most batteries, sure, although it's still PE. In the case of say a capacitor, which is essentially a battery, it's not chemical. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 12:11:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GKBTOx031190; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:11:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GKBSXF031162; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:11:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:11:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=O+EBx3BEgAYIyFyX70H/ZicJT03UvHoe/nkg3lFzo0mxPVjS1MluPpikjXrL8mVocqODlEXktlb/+0hkDbGpDuLgyZGNCifOpNjzmbHAqeCrvcM8lZ+RhNFQDyCdpUN0XnZHaQZh0no+6bydCYgIFiYhy/nDxTEHK4tUKiINzgM=; X-YMail-OSG: dcmEw2MVM1kyniHURsD1HeoGjsIlteMXWErkMzqzFnK6zcc.cQIc9CK3XIyC91aY0gI17mxEZCAVUpLeprg8e14Rr1p86cxeK31lQeINcwWIInN8lf6uCEmvbaCkjzijVxgg5_ql_7eiLnshj3jLZp_oyZG4DMBybKptURAR7vq0v0uvsqxEa56SgBsIGHeAfXBYXQ-- Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:11:21 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: FRE To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <387167.48019.qm@web62414.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72078 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Paul wrote: [snip] >> It's called an energy *moving*, not an energy >> destroyer. :-) >> > > Yes, but if you can convert ambient heat into macroscopic > motion without a pre-existing thermal gradient that would > reduce ambient temperature. Conversion, yes, but not destruction. The idea is energy from the air and ground are moved to say a television or electric automobile motor. The television and electric motor would heat up the air and ground, thus completing the cycle. Of course if say the car hood is slightly above room temperature then some of the energy is radiating to space, unless you live in smoggy Los Angeles. ;-) On the other hand, air would be blowing on the electric motor, thereby cooling down such air, which would cool the environment. So we have a small temperature gradient from the electric engine (and its nearby surroundings) and the FRE (Free Recyclable Energy) device (and its nearby surroundings). One area is hotter than room temperature, while the other is cooler than room temperature. If it were outside then the hotter area would radiate some extra energy above normal out to space, while the cooler area would radiate *less* energy than normal out to space. Of course the two would not precisely cancel, but it's close enough for government work. :-) Who knows, maybe in 1000 years such FRE devices could counteract humanities contribution to global warming. On the other hand, such a FRE device could actually add energy to the planet by decreasing the radiated energy to space relative to the energy received by the Sun. One could accomplish this by placing the FRE device outside and the load inside. The cold FRE device would cover a certain amount of ground that would normally radiate FIR radiation to space. Therefore, the cold FRE would radiate less energy to space than normal. The indoor load would be heat synced to the earth. This would result in less energy escaping the planet. :-) Blackbody radiation is relative to T^4. Who want to do such a thing in this day and age given global warming? Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 12:15:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GKFJPs017867; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:15:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GKFIfq017849; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:15:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:15:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: DpxinI8VM1l64R_OOIOgFg.fM3ip7Bs_hVCiTqC1NTp5mfPZ9NORmJv51aqO1v632Zg7Hz2qO2sSl9fM9LIL569pwzxpbmZ7mxbMV.RjDn5fFDRDLopOgN5AWcr.9HmAwqp79CtCw3FtbA-- Message-ID: <45AD3253.4090308@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:15:15 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question References: <271622.35232.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <271622.35232.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72079 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Hi, > [ snip bits on Steorn ] > > > > > It's type-1 perpetual motion: violation of he > > > > first law, which is conservation of energy. If > > > > the Steorn otor works, then a Steorn motor > > > > operating in a closed nvironment will warm up > > > > that environment. > > > > > > > > You're talking about type-2 perpetual motion: > > > > iolation of the second law, with energy moving > > > > "uphill" gainst a thermal gradient. If your idea > > > > for diode arrays orks, then when it's operating > > > > in a closed environment, it will ake no net > > > > difference to the temperature of that > > > > environment. > > > > > > That's simply not true. An LED connected to a > > > resistor generates photons. > > > > Energy is conserved in this scenario; > > Indeed, which is why I stated, " you are essentially > converting the kinetic energy in ambient temperature to > potential energy in the battery" Right. I wasn't thinking when I said the temperature would be unchanged (or rather I was thinking of total energy rather than temperature). > > the energy from the photons comes from the "noise" > > electric current, and the esistor cools slightly as the > > photons are generated due to the et slowing of the > > conduction electrons, but the photons are carrying > > nergy, which when converted back to heat warms the > > environment up gain. > > Perhaps you missed the part regarding the photons being > focused on the solar cell, which is connected to a > battery. Again, kinetic ambient energy is being converted > to potential energy in the battery and the net temperature > drops. > > > And pulling useful energy from a single thermal pool is > > absolutely a violation of the second law of > > thermodynamics. > > ... Sorry, I become unglued when discussing the 2nd > law. :-( Wikipedia has a nice quote from Physicists > P.W. Bridgman, (1941) "There are almost as many > formulations of the second law as there have been > discussions of it." Whatever -- I didn't say it couldn't be done. I just observed that it violates the second law. Certainly that last bit is true, claims that the second law is too vague to mean anything notwithstanding. Gibbs free energy is reasonably well defined and the second law says that in a closed system, you can't increase it; this scheme increases it. In fact, IIRC a diode and noisy resistor in parallel is a standard example in EE classes in college. Since I never took such classes -- just heard about them from friends who were in the EE program -- I don't know what the "textbook explanation" of why it "can't work" happens to be. > It depends how rigid you adhere to the 2nd law. It's a > "works most of the time" law. The law should only apply > to random unintelligence such as natural thermal > occurrences, etc. By means of intelligence the 2nd law is > breakable-- for example, the design of LED's. AFAIK LEDs are not normally considered to break the second law. As energy runs downhill over the junction, carried by an electron flow, some of it is converted to light. If it didn't come out as light it would come out as heat. If it didn't have a voltage gradient to run down nothing would happen (or so goes the conventional wisdom). If, instead of an LED, you put a normal diode in parallel with a resistor, the diode should get warmer and the resistor cooler, as noise from the resistor is rectified and the electrons give up the 0.6 volts of junction energy when they fall down across the junction. LEDs have a somewhat higher junction voltage than a common P/N silicon diode -- typically a couple volts IIRC rather than 0.6 volts -- but it's the same deal: noise in the resistor carries energy from the resistor to the diode. In fact, you might do better to use Schottky diodes; they have a lower forward voltage drop and should be able to rectify smaller levels of noise energy. With an LED with its high forward drop, very few of the noise crests are going to make it "over the wall", or so I would expect. > Although that's not to suggest there are no natural 2nd > law violations. No offense intended to anyone, but it's > the most ridiculous and blind sighted thought to believe > one cannot extract usable energy from moving and vibrating > objects regardless if they are planets, basketballs, > molecules, or even atoms. > > > > All LED's dissipate energy below the forward oltage, > > > as there's no lower limit. Furthermore, there's no > > > upper rest voltage limit to *real* noise. The > > > photon energy emitted from he LED comes from the > > > resistors ambient energy. If you focus the hotons > > > on a solar cell, and connect the solar cell to a > > > battery then you re essentially converting the > > > kinetic energy in ambient emperature to potential > > > energy in the battery, which does *indeed* drop he > > > overall temperature with in the closed system. :-) > > > > OK, you're right about that. Until the energy in he > > battery is used again, the average temperature of the > > system will e lower. You're converting thermal energy > > to chemical energy. > In the case of most batteries, sure, although it's still > PE. In the case of say a capacitor, which is essentially > a battery, it's not chemical. True enough. And if you just wire a noisy resistor in a loop with a diode and a capacitor the capacitor should eventually get charged up, or so one might think. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 13:07:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GL74i0003469; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:07:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GL720a003459; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:07:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:07:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=g1c8ugOKtqVI+5bF1mq2qK2Pc9Q6D86tEeodkOjAc2j3YSVnQKLU6uMYhh5MylHQFafu/9j9lkCx4bsLKzIQK9SW590OVI/1PYEHvDieK8XP2hWxIO7h23hw7Oo573oCYabQx9/8j4QPusqy7PHoTXCssmINmhd5Q6mDsMeGJuY=; X-YMail-OSG: 8bvFcEwVM1mZlA8iN6ysMu8R.J4zzXyxOmz5e7f4ngRPet5w.gmc16V4byiePrauUSN9fW9nLiY8R2lVP2yrd5djtJGqM5OaNrd.hHPmPyVMaypJbIyDKXLZce75cHP0W2P68BpqwPcRYwi.2CzY.KtL Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:06:57 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <913011.48056.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72080 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > If, instead of an LED, you put a normal diode in parallel with > a resistor, the diode should get warmer and the resistor > cooler, as noise from the resistor is rectified and the > electrons give up the 0.6 volts of junction energy when they > fall down across the junction. LEDs have a somewhat higher > junction voltage than a common P/N silicon diode -- > typically a couple volts IIRC rather than 0.6 volts -- but > it's the same deal: noise in the resistor carries energy > from the resistor to the diode. > > In fact, you might do better to use Schottky diodes; they > have a lower forward voltage drop and should be able to > rectify smaller levels of noise energy. With an LED with > its high forward drop, very few of the noise crests are > going to make it "over the wall", or so I would expect. That's usually the case-- 1 to 5 Vf range. The LED's effectiveness drops exponentially below Vf, but still emit, as there's no real lower limit, which is why you would need trillions of LED's each connected to a resistor to emit any appreciable light. LED bandwidth is another factor to consider. Given a year or two I'd imagine a company such as IBM could create a FRE device that emitted appreciable "free" light. [snip] Regards, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 13:53:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GLqrh2012308; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:52:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GLqpGD012291; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:52:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:52:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn question Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:52:47 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <45AD3253.4090308@pobox.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72081 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If you wade thru the thousands of posts in the steorn forum, it's obvious that Sean McCarthy is trying to provide much of the information necessary to build his device without compromising his patent applications. There are even summaries of what he's said. It's 7.5 watts/gram It's 0.5 watts/cm^3 for the electrical generator version, about 10 times that for the mechanical output version. Reversing it absorbs energy and it doesn't get hot. It doesn't use magnetic shielding or Halbach arrays. It does require 3D geometry (can't run in a plane). It probably uses magnetic viscosity, where the integrated force on a ferromagnetic material varies as the speed of approach or withdrawal. They have a 550 horsepower prototype running. and much more. Back to cooling the earth (which I don't think will ever be necessary): To start, when every home or neighborhood has their own free energy machine, convert all the hydroelectric dam generators to Steorn Absorbers, then all the wind farm generators. When that's not enough, do you have any ideas using a heat engine or refrigeration plant and heat engine to drive a Steorn Absorber? Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 14:10:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GMAJYF019076; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:10:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GMAHgF019056; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:10:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:10:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45AD4D3D.7050908@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 16:10:05 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72082 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > >do you have any ideas using a heat engine or refrigeration plant and heat >engine to drive a Steorn Absorber? > > If I had a F E machine, I'd build a small one and package it as a battery charger. Put a discharged battery in, spin the flywheel and some time later replace that battery with another. I'm wondering if Steorn has made anything like that available? I've just seen too many BS artists with these things. Worse, they're out to jerk my chain. I visited the website that someone posted, it's a discussion group! Does Steorn have an email address? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 14:21:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GMLOmK026927; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:21:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GMLMc2026910; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:21:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:21:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Steorn question Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:21:18 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <45AD4D3D.7050908@usfamily.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72083 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steorn implies their initial emphasis is on cell phone battery replacements. They have a contract with a manufacturer to provide a small number of "High value demonstration units". More statements from Steorn: The energy is derived from the attraction phase in the center of the cycle. The motion is not of constant speed. If the scientific jury challenge had no takers, they would have build a Steorn car and paraded it around. ( I think that you could have taken several "scientists" we all know and driven them around in it for months without refueling and they'd still deny that it worked! ). -----Original Message----- From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:10 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > >do you have any ideas using a heat engine or refrigeration plant and heat >engine to drive a Steorn Absorber? > > If I had a F E machine, I'd build a small one and package it as a battery charger. Put a discharged battery in, spin the flywheel and some time later replace that battery with another. I'm wondering if Steorn has made anything like that available? I've just seen too many BS artists with these things. Worse, they're out to jerk my chain. I visited the website that someone posted, it's a discussion group! Does Steorn have an email address? --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 14:52:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GMq8xq016928; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:52:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GMq66h016905; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:52:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:52:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <26b701c739c0$f1964650$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 23:52:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0GMq2fL016873 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72084 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator > > With both links all I get is "Your search - 300*( (1+ NREjoulesPerDay > /10^22)^0.25-1) - did not match any documents." Good. Now replace the "NREjoulesPerDay" in the search box by a numerical value or expression (e.g. 0.5*10^22, half the solar heating power) and click "search". Here is the link again: http://tinyurl.com/vcusf I find Google's calculator function very handy. For one thing you can see what you have typed :) Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 14:59:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GMxLxD012131; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:59:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GMxJro012119; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:59:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:59:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=ZvyoqqQFC2+NPl/10kOpRi+6S9yPpyUP5YXdwVZSauSr/10jVSQP+Epvu9d0Y8rj+tRjj3rLoNN+wjnrYB7cnp/mlaYVLW2cq8stReB9096Jy5RBFWpkcwlb3OhG06HlZ4Q2yCuXnKLSjrt2PFcakkPQKlidtWlIlKre7YNTIKo=; X-YMail-OSG: 21KVxmEVM1l0hAqxM_m.7dVgrsidrEaK8jsQp25GqF3U0NKya6P.G109rmsF4fBihC5ycM_A7BVCmFiZRXKfchoiMZXUPKofc_38k8SoX4dicbAi2XpGc3omB4tFqNewe5vyrjFOg904k8LrbP5ZN0XQ73bjXIng98JhMEv32OatjgsvwtKEevSUQRFLKgPYhRTWJw-- Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:59:17 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <927430.49766.qm@web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72085 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > ( I think that you could have taken several "scientists" we all know and > driven them around in it for months without > refueling and they'd still deny that it worked! ). I'd become a Steorn believer if the device cut the electric bills by at least half! That should be enough to convince anyone. :-) Regards, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 15:52:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GNqjWh008444; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:52:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GNqiN8008430; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:52:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:52:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <26c601c739c9$6ad7b640$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <927430.49766.qm@web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:52:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0GNqgdb008410 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72087 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good point. One can easily fool a bunch of scientists into believing that a pulsed power device is over-unity, e.g. by taking advantage of the many pitfalls of pulsed electrical energy measurement, which most scientists I know have no idea about. It's harder to fool your electricity meter (although it can be done too). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question > Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > > ( I think that you could have taken several > "scientists" we all know and > > driven them around in it for months without > > refueling and they'd still deny that it worked! ). > > > I'd become a Steorn believer if the device cut the > electric bills by at least half! That > should be enough to convince anyone. :-) > > > Regards, > Paul > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast > with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 15:55:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0GNrihh017469; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:53:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0GNqMcK017055; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:52:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 15:52:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 18:51:08 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator In-reply-to: <26b701c739c0$f1964650$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72086 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Veeder" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 7:39 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator > > >> >> With both links all I get is "Your search - 300*( (1+ NREjoulesPerDay >> /10^22)^0.25-1) - did not match any documents." > > Good. Now replace the "NREjoulesPerDay" in the search box by a numerical value > or expression (e.g. 0.5*10^22, half the solar heating power) and click > "search". Here is the link again: http://tinyurl.com/vcusf > > I find Google's calculator function very handy. For one thing you can see what > you have typed :) > > Michel > Oh I see. I've never used the calculator function. Earlier when you said "double click NREjoulesPerDay" I was expecting google would display a new link after clicking your first link. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 17:01:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0H11Nj4029741; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:01:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0H11LAb029692; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:01:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:01:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45AD755B.5060407@usfamily.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 19:01:15 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72088 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Steorn question Status: RO X-Status: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: >If the scientific jury challenge had no takers, they would have >build a Steorn car and paraded it around. >( I think that you could have taken several "scientists" we all >know and driven them around in it for months without >refueling and they'd still deny that it worked! ). Yah! we could call it the Parksiemobile! Some of you will will Mad Jack and his power amplifier that burned out transformers. He got quite upset by my suggestion to test his dingus with a water heater. That's what I intend to say to the Steorn managment, if I can find an email address. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 16 17:12:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0H1CGX4011293; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:12:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0H1CBSZ011268; Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:12:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:12:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <26e501c739d4$84c39a50$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 02:12:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0H1CAc4011253 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72089 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: BTW I used the "renewable energy" expression (NRE = non renewable energy) only because I couldn't think of a more specific one to describe energy such as hydroelectric, wind, biomass, photovoltaic..., derived from _recently_ received sunlight (so fossil fuels or nuclear can't be contrived to qualify). Something like RSDE (recent sunlight derived energy), is there a name for that? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 12:51 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Harry Veeder" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 7:39 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: NRE induced global warming calculator >> >> >>> >>> With both links all I get is "Your search - 300*( (1+ NREjoulesPerDay >>> /10^22)^0.25-1) - did not match any documents." >> >> Good. Now replace the "NREjoulesPerDay" in the search box by a numerical value >> or expression (e.g. 0.5*10^22, half the solar heating power) and click >> "search". Here is the link again: http://tinyurl.com/vcusf >> >> I find Google's calculator function very handy. For one thing you can see what >> you have typed :) >> >> Michel >> > > Oh I see. I've never used the calculator function. > Earlier when you said "double click NREjoulesPerDay" I was expecting google > would display a new link after clicking your first link. > > Harry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 10:17:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0HIH0O6002536; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:17:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0HIEJvC001051; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:14:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:14:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: cONUX.cVM1lyqxty53m.f3o09ncOh1wOVR1I7FWgxFafDPI7l2h5q6A.mFQrOENFe5HjIfNXrylavwSPMGsbKGbGlcaJ3EYZE0n5BfiiyMxqx2c25RP.ea3eQeDh2_Z7aU99dODWBNQcEA-- Message-ID: <45AE6775.9090707@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 13:14:13 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Prior art for Steorn? References: <275601c73a4b$9bb86660$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <275601c73a4b$9bb86660$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72097 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > An even simpler design: > http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/annex.htm#horseshoe > Hard to believe that this one doesn't work isn't it? Right.... but let's try putting in radial arrows for the forces and see how well it works... Incidentally, it's legitimate to use magnetic monopoles to analyze something like this, as long as you keep in mind that you can't just go down to the store and buy a box of them. They don't change the theory in any important way, the field of a dipole is the same as the field of two closely spaced monopoles, and the actions of monopoles are a lot simpler to visualize and understand than the actions of a bunch of dipoles. FWIW I liked the "ICW" generator on that page, too. Took a while to figure out why it's "Can't" rather than "Can". :-) > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dean McGowan" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:02 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Prior art for Steorn? > > >> I have had my own concepts that i have put forward regarding vortice related >> spin and magnetic motor design. No claims of success either. >> >> http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=1453.msg11505 >> >> Regards, >> >> Dean >> >> ----Original Message Follows---- >> From: "Michel Jullian" >> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> To: >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Prior art for Steorn? >> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:26:16 +0100 >> >> Nice, did it work? >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Esa Ruoho" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 8:34 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Prior art for Steorn? >> >> >>> Howard Johnson >>> http://peswiki.com/index.php/Howard_Johnson >>> http://rexresearch.com/johnson/1johnson.htm >>> >>> i hope once eventually he will get the due he deserves. btw, he noticed a >>> very vortex-related thing.. its in the book >>> http://cheniere.org/books/HoJo/index.html >>> and this is the thing: >>> >>> 1. >>> >>> Sample page >>> (The lines of force are spins forming Vortices) >>> >>> 2. >>> >>> Sample page >>> (The Double Vortex with the Spins Alongside) >>> >>> >>> >>> On 17/01/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> Magnetic shield engine: >>>> http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm#cheng >>>> The guy says it doesn't work, but it's not obvious why. >>>> -- >>>> Michel >>>> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 11:06:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0HJ6F5X009962; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:06:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0HJ6DBI009944; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:06:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:06:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000b01c73a6a$8c99e9f0$3e037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 13:06:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C73A38.410366B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72098 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: evert fluid tech Clem motor Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C73A38.410366B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evert's updated pages show some Clem overunity motor info http://www.evert.de/eft609e.htm Richard ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C73A38.410366B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Evert's updated pages = show some=20  Clem overunity motor info
http://www.evert.de/eft609e.htm<= /A>
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C73A38.410366B0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 12:31:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0HKVLgD009710; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:31:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0HKVIVt009672; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:31:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:31:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <278501c73a76$71ae2aa0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 21:31:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0HKVGAq009643 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72099 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 1998 "Biodiesel from algae" report Status: O X-Status: http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24190.pdf "A Look Back at the U.S. Department of Energy's Aquatic Species Program-Biodiesel from Algae" A very informative 328 pages report, first paragraph: " Executive Summary >From 1978 to 1996, the U.S. Department of Energy's Office of Fuels Development funded a program to develop renewable transportation fuels from algae. The main focus of the program, know as the Aquatic Species Program (or ASP) was the production of biodiesel from high lipid-content algae grown in ponds, utilizing waste CO2 from coal fired power plants. Over the almost two decades of this program, tremendous advances were made in the science of manipulating the metabolism of algae and the engineering of microalgae algae production systems. Technical highlights of the program are summarized below: " -- Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 13:09:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0HL8qgv014551; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 13:08:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0HL8nL9014541; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 13:08:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 13:08:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:08:46 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5t3tq2du95d9qlaij4qdmch6uiubamca9j@4ax.com> References: <45ACE881.5030503@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45ACE881.5030503@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 17 Jan 2007 21:08:46 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0HL8l1G014522 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72100 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:00:17 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Because it doesn't. It's a magnetic motor -- permanent-magnet-based >engine -- and there's no mechanism for it to "steal heat" from the >environment, nor any evidence whatsoever that it does so. > >It's type-1 perpetual motion: violation of the first law, which is >conservation of energy. If the Steorn motor works, then a Steorn motor >operating in a closed environment will warm up that environment. If it works at all, then I'd be more inclined to believe that it is deriving energy from an unexpected source, rather than creating it. One off-beat possibility is a time distortion field. I wonder if clocks in the surroundings run at a different speed? :) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 15:10:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0HNAR7B006921; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:10:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0HNAKl5006870; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:10:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:10:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:09:06 -0500 From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72101 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Is this sensible? Status: O X-Status: Is this sensible? Harry ---- Canada likes idea of nuclear power for oil sands Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:08 AM EST OTTAWA (Reuters) - It is only a matter of time before Canada builds a nuclear power station to help extract oil from the massive tar sands in northern Alberta, the federal natural resources minister said in an interview published on Thursday. Gary Lunn told the Sun chain of newspapers he wants Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. (AECL) -- which builds Candu nuclear reactors -- and a private Alberta company to form a partnership to build a power station. "It's not a question of if, it's a question of when in my mind," the Sun quoted Lunn as saying. "I think nuclear can play a very significant role in the oil sands. I'm very, very keen." AECL and Energy Alberta Corp. say nuclear power is the obvious way to produce the massive amounts of super heated steam needed to extract oil from the tar sands. Opponents say nuclear power stations are too expensive and have a patchy operating record in Canada. Lunn's ministry said in October that about 80 percent of Canadian crude oil production in 2020 was expected to come from northern Alberta's oil sands, double the current contribution. ---- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 16:29:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0I0Sma3031286; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:28:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0I0Sktp031266; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:28:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:28:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: uDpBnt0VM1mKE6qieOFe5guYkijQP7tbDyMTWeq6En.wUVIuSPoJF4MrQCN1iKhxgC6nrFALkGbgQ1IgGQHI_WUqVlXaHdLEkxCx2orGrxNwa1YkUUI9Pl0UMlH8z5BFrqR0FpXaDKi8qKLcahVybho_uNDxSKhPo6Nx0tyaX9lCH0kwrhUzzv0Cfwk9 Message-ID: <45AEBF36.9070002@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:28:38 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Is this sensible? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72102 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Is this sensible? > Harry > > ---- > Canada likes idea of nuclear power for oil sands > Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:08 AM EST > > > OTTAWA (Reuters) - It is only a matter of time before Canada builds a > nuclear power station to help extract oil from the massive tar sands in > northern Alberta, the federal natural resources minister said in an > interview published on Thursday. > > Gary Lunn told the Sun chain of newspapers he wants Atomic Energy of Canada > Ltd. (AECL) -- which builds Candu nuclear reactors -- and a private Alberta > company to form a partnership to build a power station. > > "It's not a question of if, it's a question of when in my mind," the Sun > quoted Lunn as saying. "I think nuclear can play a very significant role in > the oil sands. I'm very, very keen." > > AECL and Energy Alberta Corp. say nuclear power is the obvious way to > produce the massive amounts of super heated steam needed to extract oil from > the tar sands. At first glance it sounds like galloping lunacy. But at second glance, I think maybe it makes sense. First, you can't ship uranium around in tank trucks and burn it in your car, so even if all it did was convert nuclear fuel to something more convenient it wouldn't be totally useless. Second, assuming there's a net power gain -- which I believe there is -- it makes the greenhouse gas equation for tar sands look a whole lot better than it would otherwise. The lousy ROI of tar sands, when the "I" (investment) is paid for by burning other fossil fuels, makes them seem horribly polluting. This helps with that. Third, Canada is "en train" to renege on their part of Kyoto, and if the French succeed in putting some teeth into the agreement this is going to be a problem. Using nuclear power rather than burning fossil fuel for this part of the process could help a lot -- one of the sore points with Kyoto in Canada, if I understand what's going on here right, is that tar sands processing is going to just blow the lid off of Canada's CO2 production. (But I may be totally wrong about that.) But finally any long term use of nuclear power is going to have to include, at the least, reprocessing, and ideally it should include breeder reactors, or the whole thing is going to be ugly, brutish and short. I don't have any idea where Canada stands on that issue. > > Opponents say nuclear power stations are too expensive and have a patchy > operating record in Canada. They've got a patchy operating record everywhere except France AFAIK. (And maybe the French have just done a better job of covering up the problems than other countries...) > Lunn's ministry said in October that about 80 percent of Canadian crude oil > production in 2020 was expected to come from northern Alberta's oil sands, > double the current contribution. > ---- > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 16:41:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0I0fEYL009345; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:41:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0I0fDht009327; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:41:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:41:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20070117184103.w980l4pdcskc4w40@webmail.usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:41:03 -0600 From: temalloy@usfamily.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45ACE881.5030503@pobox.com> <5t3tq2du95d9qlaij4qdmch6uiubamca9j@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <5t3tq2du95d9qlaij4qdmch6uiubamca9j@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.2) Resent-Message-ID: <67OW7C.A.nRC.pIsrFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72103 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: time distortion fields Status: O X-Status: Quoting Robin van Spaandonk : > One off-beat possibility is a time distortion field. I wonder if > clocks in the surroundings run at a different speed? :) > Time distortion fields, has this phenomena been observed? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 17 17:45:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0I1jaoE024350; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:45:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0I1jYYf024330; Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:45:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:45:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=kq8tUOF4clHfbqo9PNczfMGQ/I7ZO+L/beB4VVcu382SFOP4RncbJ2SocIS1VcJJT4zfLYTXYpcW86xREMe+DOA4wM7AB+YKldqrXa1/QBrHTr36aOvhIQO7jmP7QAZg65r4HkLz0EqlcZjK6JUeak9u7chbcld6aCssPCsMQxQ= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:45:33 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: time distortion fields In-Reply-To: <20070117184103.w980l4pdcskc4w40@webmail.usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17939_32863056.1169084733456" References: <45ACE881.5030503@pobox.com> <5t3tq2du95d9qlaij4qdmch6uiubamca9j@4ax.com> <20070117184103.w980l4pdcskc4w40@webmail.usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: <1PJHn.A._7F.9EtrFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72104 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_17939_32863056.1169084733456 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ever? Yes. In the Steorn device? No. On 1/18/07, temalloy@usfamily.net wrote: > > Quoting Robin van Spaandonk : > > > One off-beat possibility is a time distortion field. I wonder if > > clocks in the surroundings run at a different speed? :) > > > Time distortion fields, has this phenomena been observed? > > ------=_Part_17939_32863056.1169084733456 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ever? Yes.
In the Steorn device? No.

On 1/18/07, temalloy@usfamily.net < temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
Quoting Robin van Spaandonk < rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>:

> One off-beat possibility is a time distortion field. I wonder if
> clocks in the surroundings run at a different speed? :)
>
Time distortion fields, has this phenomena been observed?


------=_Part_17939_32863056.1169084733456-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 01:56:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0I9o41H022519; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 01:55:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0I9ln5J020319; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 01:47:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 01:47:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=RaHosaVg161GtZJqZsB0ZRVO37zxhWwHr8IX1iXHbAaei9lxK/pVIRdsIQKF6EH8ugEe1b1aEbLfre6nLYRSjqHF3jYoV32EZUhVz6lQ2ku5CVO7sXo+4ShGH7YBlAZa8gkosddMD/ccvZeSnZ2A7QkY6+fXX1EfB87wGrSB0oM=; X-YMail-OSG: NjNDSYwVM1lNKzE4GAoqMk00JpjehEWq.vz4roOKYe61VCkhoOvp4Dflk8mB9WgkvTAPtB.Hu_3hhAYOH3grT_uiAlIHQ8aGH2461YiOhOzH1_BzV_qNMO789Lhq1jAi1.N8hSjOOyfCt.M- Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 01:47:21 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: [Vo]: time distortion fields To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20070117184103.w980l4pdcskc4w40@webmail.usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <872486.62366.qm@web32813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72106 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- temalloy@usfamily.net wrote: > Quoting Robin van Spaandonk > : > > > One off-beat possibility is a time distortion > field. I wonder if > > clocks in the surroundings run at a different > speed? :) > > > Time distortion fields, has this phenomena been > observed? > Time distortion is an unexplainable fact of nature, and can be demonstrated via mutual inductance of air core magnetic fields in mutual inductance. Once again I ask the question, I am going on a long journey, how long is this journey? I have gone so far and made a right angle turn, then measured the same distance and made another right angle turn. This should be three legs of a square. Now I make my third right angle turn of equal distance, I should have three legs of a box or square already completed, but I have already arrived at the original destination. But the square is completed before the fourth leg as I have arrived back at the beginning before requiring the final journey. Normally a triangle takes three legs to complete a journey to its origin. Normally a square requires four of these journeys. So how far does one need to travel to make a square take on the attributes of a triangle? To make a square aquire the atributes of a triangle? To complete a journey with three instead of four? Start from the equator to the north pole, turn right, make another right at the quadrant position of that equator, and arrive home at the equator with three journeys instead of four. Euclidean geometry has been altered from flat plane laws to laws whereby three dimensions are involved or subtended. Likewise the same twilight zone episodes can happen when we deal with resonant voltage rises in time: compare the time periods where they came from relative to each other as occurs in 120 three phase production of electrical impulses, and the results that can be seen when those impulses are used to create resonant voltage rises individually, and the end comparing of those resonant voltage rises against each other/ What the time laws say is that time must be shared equally and divided. And that in this division the circle of time will always add to 360 degrees when divided three ways. But the second factor of voltage amplification present in resonant voltage rise shows that in mutual inductance of resonant elements, the measured differnce between each of these voltage rises in time with measurement to the other shows a circle well expnaded to some 400 degrees, when a circle is only possible with 360. 13 meters were used to show that effect, and I am glad to have pointed it out. HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 05:25:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0IDP2Ln025007; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:25:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0IDOtmv024951; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:24:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:24:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000f01c73b04$06ef9120$db027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:24:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C73AD1.BBC56440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <-QwjF.A.vFG.mU3rFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72107 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: time distortion fields Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C73AD1.BBC56440 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C73AD1.BBC6EAE0" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C73AD1.BBC6EAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHarvey wrote.. Likewise the same twilight zone episodes can happen when we deal with resonant voltage rises in time: compare the time periods where they came from relative to each other as occurs in 120 three phase production of electrical impulses, and the results that can be seen when those impulses are used to create resonant voltage rises individually, and the end comparing of those resonant voltage rises against each other/ What the time laws say is that time must be shared equally and divided. And that in this division the circle of time will always add to 360 degrees when divided three ways. But the second factor of voltage amplification present in resonant voltage rise shows that in mutual inductance of resonant elements, the measured differnce between each of these voltage rises in time with measurement to the other shows a circle well expnaded to some 400 degrees, when a circle is only possible with 360. 13 meters were used to show that effect, and I am glad to have pointed it out. Howdy Hardy, Watching the LCD screen of a Fluke Inc. test meter measuring 3 phase = power and voltage under various loads gives visible evidence.=20 Perhaps that is why they call it a fluke. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C73AD1.BBC6EAE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Harvey wrote..

Likewise the same twilight zone  episodes can happen
when we = deal=20 with resonant voltage rises in time:
compare the time periods where = they came=20 from relative
to each other as occurs in 120 three phase = production
of=20 electrical impulses, and the results that can be
seen when those = impulses are=20 used to create resonant
voltage rises individually, and the end = comparing=20 of
those resonant voltage rises against each other/

What the = time laws=20 say is that time must be shared
equally and divided. And that in this = division the
circle of time will always add to 360 degrees = when
divided=20 three ways. But the second factor of voltage
amplification present in = resonant voltage rise shows
that in mutual inductance of resonant = elements,=20 the
measured differnce between each of these voltage rises
in time = with=20 measurement to the other shows a circle
well expnaded to some 400 = degrees,=20 when a circle is
only possible with 360. 13 meters were used to = show
that=20 effect, and I am glad to have pointed it out.

Howdy Hardy,

Watching the LCD screen of a Fluke Inc. test meter measuring 3 phase = power=20 and voltage under various loads gives visible evidence.

Perhaps that is why they call it a fluke.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C73AD1.BBC6EAE0-- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C73AD1.BBC56440 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000a01c73b04$06583320$db027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C73AD1.BBC56440-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 06:51:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0IEp9eQ004649; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:51:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0IEp600004629; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:51:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:51:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=lYzVjVdpBA88/gPqKzMb7ReTsJtKepRbJrhQdV+YneWYPLouPcHW1VWUhL5kJ+jxTAj3ObG9hCpZZs+5rMMFQ5vdE9RSkta+hBzZvFtDr93qIItIW+ADa5fVWJGz1SZngiacd7Dz6ZJRHIDMwPCcmwYFyB5X5UkjJvFE8nQtzDc= ; X-YMail-OSG: 47PWIPcVM1mmjAujRy2gbT6sio3LOkmWYKOUt7Ef3t5VCIygxv.zJdhKK1z0DXu5L2kK0d8rfCkm8SYsAzohhRuHjbvyjgAGD_6xZPQE4odptdQI0N26qCaSjMu6VAH16KJ2_Zd1caqMmA-- Message-ID: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:51:01 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72108 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Status: O X-Status: The Better-Battery, or bettery - might be a reality in 2007 - Finally! (if you can believe press releases) http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 07:12:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0IFBtgD013875; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:11:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0IFBrMm013849; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:11:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:11:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=28XoCQgAXtSCqke75f1NEk3O4UFSgw1ivfFMcKqNFRIKo8soCaH+aIb3hz4nUwJoja9ljuj6/UB0LcT7amNscXjSmafz6vGaAO8YXAH3NkrmuWJw1FF3+ITK05Sp/luWdtBAxu4sNA+jiu/O09T3ro0+31PAWkGXqbIg4XFjz+A= ; Message-ID: <45AF8E35.7050609@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:11:49 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: low electron work function material References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72109 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes - this is very good news for many potential energy applications - the problem being: is platinum absolutely necessary? There are a number of exotic cold cathode materials already in mass production - going back to one of the great unsung heroes of invention: Philo Farnsworth. Here is another possibility - ion implantation - but this one uses platinum as well http://tinyurl.com/2kxutv or http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TJN-47XFMNT-F&_coverDate=05%2F31%2F2003&_alid=527250962&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5315&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=7c23dfaded8e9d264c4c21b59d3d0392 abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > Semiconductor coating lowers the work function of metal plates: > > http://focus.aps.org/story/v6/st3 > > If this effect can be combined with field emission from points that are > covered with the semiconductor as they are exposed flush with a flat > composite matrix of embedded consistent diameter orthogonal needles in a > rigid insulator then an evenly bright electron emitter may be produced. > > Aloha, > > Charlie > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 10:20:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0IIKbct012213; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:20:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0IIKYDs012179; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:20:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:20:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:19:16 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: time distortion fields In-reply-to: <000f01c73b04$06ef9120$db027841@xptower> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72110 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Natural rhythms (or frequencies) which are used as measures of time are subject to distortion. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 14:10:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0IMAcls028675; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:10:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0IMAZxb028644; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:10:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:10:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: "Bettery" on-the-way? Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:10:32 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45AF8955.5040705@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:10:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0IMAWwY028624 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72111 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:51:01 -0800: Hi, [snip] >The Better-Battery, or bettery - might be a reality in 2007 - Finally! >(if you can believe press releases) > >http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515 At 15 kWh/100lb it has about 8 times better energy density than a conventional lead acid battery, and being an ultracap, it should be rechargeable, at a "gas" station, in about the time it would normally take to fill the tank with gas. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 14:30:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0IMU99s003345; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:30:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0IMU8Ew003332; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:30:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:30:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: low electron work function material Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:30:01 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <93tvq21cfub6v79b9bluhddeqv5df9sg4f@4ax.com> References: <45AF8E35.7050609@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45AF8E35.7050609@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:30:01 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0IMU28W003291 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72112 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:11:49 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Yes - this is very good news for many potential energy applications - >the problem being: is platinum absolutely necessary? > >There are a number of exotic cold cathode materials already in mass >production - going back to one of the great unsung heroes of invention: >Philo Farnsworth. > >Here is another possibility - ion implantation - but this one uses >platinum as well > >http://tinyurl.com/2kxutv > Check out the material used in the Borealis power cells. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 18 16:52:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0J0qPBL017514; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:52:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0J0qMDx017499; Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:52:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:52:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=d9GreW8AuuMhGaEc6yiYLihgZlmeEkDzVfK2I+/66oAiSy5tg1DOfiJDjfg8cgDtbvXvIZUGDVXETC5leWhJbZlvr8ImcwF/2B7Bg/kSGWL/2ladgd8AM5k5bg0lL/uQxK/1PfdPMeKvAun/I118aWLoh3vJ/GQsx5OXSGXOfqQ= ; Message-ID: <20070119005222.68018.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:52:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1719893872-1169167942=:66895" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72113 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:: 1998 "Biodiesel from algae" report Status: O X-Status: --0-1719893872-1169167942=:66895 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a new video of this aspect of the Algoil process where the plant s= iting is done next to a fossil fuel plant:=0Ahttp://video.google.com/videop= lay?docid=3D8311441053618945507&q=3Dalgae+biodiesel=0A=0AI'm trying to find= the details on a startup company which has supposedly found (or hybridized= ) an Algae species from Yellowstone Park (they patented it) which is rumore= d to grow so fast that a homeowner could make easily 100% of his own oil fo= r both home-power and normal transportation use from a swimming pool sized = pond. =0A=0AI don't like the idea of giving patents on algae - but certainl= y it would be hard to enforce anyway.=0A=0ANext -- -- will be a species= that you can grow for a few hours every day before the kids get to use the= pool. =0A=0A --0-1719893872-1169167942=:66895 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is a new video of this aspect of the Algoil proce= ss where the plant siting is done next to a fossil fuel plant:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?doc= id=3D8311441053618945507&q=3Dalgae+biodiesel

I'm tryi= ng to find the details on a startup company which has supposedly found (or = hybridized) an Algae species from Yellowstone Park (they patented it) which= is rumored to grow so fast that a homeowner could make easily 100% of his = own oil for both home-power and normal transportation use from a swimming p= ool sized pond.

I don't like the idea of giving patents on algae - = but certainly it would be hard to enforce anyway.

Next  -- <= g>-- will be a species that you can grow for a few hours every day before the kids get to use the= pool.
--0-1719893872-1169167942=:66895-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 03:45:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JBjn2a026195; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 03:45:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JBjkZn026156; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 03:45:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 03:45:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <003901c73bbf$58db2e20$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <20070119005222.68018.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:45:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0JBjiK5026104 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72114 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: 1998 "Biodiesel from algae" report Status: O X-Status: The nice thing is that the process designed for a fossil fuel plant will work identically for a biodiesel fuel plant, so the technology will be here to last. About the swimming pool sized pond, one must keep in mind that energy production will never exceed incident solar energy :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: "vortex" Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 1:52 AM Subject: [Vo]: Re:: 1998 "Biodiesel from algae" report There is a new video of this aspect of the Algoil process where the plant siting is done next to a fossil fuel plant: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8311441053618945507&q=algae+biodiesel I'm trying to find the details on a startup company which has supposedly found (or hybridized) an Algae species from Yellowstone Park (they patented it) which is rumored to grow so fast that a homeowner could make easily 100% of his own oil for both home-power and normal transportation use from a swimming pool sized pond. I don't like the idea of giving patents on algae - but certainly it would be hard to enforce anyway. Next -- -- will be a species that you can grow for a few hours every day before the kids get to use the pool. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 05:03:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JD317i001740; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 05:03:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JD2xGl001720; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 05:02:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 05:02:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=gjDaMPLgsXKRqgotZI7fepLeGLbNG2r+52aTrhYOUPLyfCN1CN9f+7MV03YvUhj4M32YmSsl3ZJzsWb0NTiIvjYq3yksFYkMjGEueE7hqn8l5qb5zJp6Qgn912DvYww9hfVT1HhYlbKRcxoqs0urdB//JgbHGr/S6mo8M8vFuRE= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:02:57 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72115 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Up In The Sky . . . Status: O X-Status: http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53820 Air Force colonel reports lights 'not of this world' Snaps images above Arkansas: 'I have no idea what they were' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: January 17, 2007 6:37 p.m. Eastern By Joe Kovacs (c) 2007 WorldNetDaily.com In the wake of reports of unidentified objects flying over Chicago's O'Hare Airport, a retired Air Force pilot has his own mystery with a rash of bright, colorful lights he photographed hovering in skies over western Arkansas last week. "I believe these lights were not of this world, and I feel a duty and responsibility to come forward," Col. Brian Fields told WND. "I have no idea what they were." From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 06:20:57 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JEKpO3027776; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 06:20:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JEKm8e027759; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 06:20:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 06:20:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 14:19:57 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72116 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Biomanufacturing Status: O X-Status: Many coral reefs are in trouble. Many are bleaching and then disintegrating. Fish hatchery like protected growth pool would have reliably healthy living coral reefs and attendant sea creatures that would supply a surplus of larva to be deflected to seacrete production which I guess electrically forces the larva to deposit in a dense nonliving form. The production rate will depend on the biological activity which needs to be reconciled to the market. The enterprise could use small outposts to cooperate with a variety of natural reefs and undersea towers where stacks of chambers for various rebar armatures gather secrete deposits to form seacrete products. The chambers would be supplied with artificial light and electricity produced by Ambient Heat Recovery means where the net absorption of ambient heat equals the chemical energy put into the product because intermediate energy misrouted within the biomanufacturing process is recycled. Material would be moved in 3D by submersible robots or waldos. Extensive seacrete biomanufacturing would not displace natural coral reefs. The chambers can be set to different temperatures as needed. A large volume of circulating seawater would produce a large amount of net energy with a small temperature drop. Manganese nodule growing and algae based biomanufacturing could be similar. Aloha, Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 06:35:03 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JEYi0h008185; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 06:34:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JEYePr008143; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 06:34:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 06:34:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=K2NmwJQMlhBeHpA00RIwWuzpJLQRhVyNe0rChvD59Cjfk9fxEG7n1qvXTPiyzdBAFUtuF/+lBksdF3cFX/gj7C41F46vcqSzaBVnmG6Kr2256PekOxPpyfrGajCyavrLnsCRXApqhxC3nJX/xvieFz5JMJvcYbTHM/lpxhHy2T0= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:34:38 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Supermag WTF? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45AB0747.5080606@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72117 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/15/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > My guess is pump/dump. The stock has gone from $0.05 to $0.65 in a few months. SVET is now trading at $1.75, up $1.10 since this report. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 07:13:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JFDWWW022707; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:13:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JFDVPQ022696; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:13:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:13:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=GadWCwSmXVD9nDhJTaHLsdQcdpuN1LuC9YkjXQ6HmbAUEFBBzuF+QnVpiUW5NC89w4tNkgG2OfJBv/6ruet4COsFijF6OGMWdsezDhXtUn52zPv309qyQs9Ig/DrSd8vyST2wYUysXkyFLunbwakqKb2LsaFmQuJVLIa2Pjoxc4= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:13:29 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72118 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: NYC Stinks Status: O X-Status: http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_016190952.html Experts Can't Find Source Of Mysterious NYC Odor (CBS/AP) JERSEY CITY Environmental officials in two states said they have given up hope of finding the source of a mysterious odor that swept across parts of New York City a week ago. New Jersey officials said they checked out more than 140 industrial facilities in the northern part of the state to see if they were responsible for the foul stench that drifted up the Hudson River on Jan. 8. The inquiry didn't turn up any unusual emissions, said Elaine Makatura, a spokeswoman for the state's Department of Environmental Protection. Many have speculated that the odor is the result of methane being released into the atmosphere due to permafrost melting. If so, we're history. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 07:21:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JFLYqA030514; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:21:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JFLX9N030495; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:21:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:21:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: km7LoHQVM1m8MBVE_.Tb0a5qeMnaHwKIHFTN0g6jWZB5nZ9YaGn5pShqpDs8c71dXN74x49a3q8Zp.wUPWazY7cBu2zF0KJ6svWdK.m29Q8xuiP1yS6wYQ-- Message-ID: <45B0E1F5.1000707@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:21:25 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biomanufacturing References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72119 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: abundance@logonbasic.com wrote: > Many coral reefs are in trouble. Many are bleaching and then > disintegrating. Fish hatchery like protected growth pool would have > reliably healthy living coral reefs Maybe -- but IIRC the bleaching was finally tracked down to higher sea temperatures (after a couple decades of suspecting ozone layer damage, mysterious microorganisms, alien attacks, whatever...). The corals which bleach are adapted to a very narrow temperature range; cold water corals, for instance, are unaffected. Given this, it's hard to see how protected growth pools could be immune to the bleaching. Protected pools would tend to be shallow and have somewhat restricted inflow and outflow, which would contribute to warming the pools even more than the open ocean. > and attendant sea creatures that > would supply a surplus of larva to be deflected to seacrete production > which I guess electrically forces the larva to deposit in a dense > nonliving form. The production rate will depend on the biological > activity which needs to be reconciled to the market. The enterprise > could use small outposts to cooperate with a variety of natural reefs > and undersea towers where stacks of chambers for various rebar armatures > gather secrete deposits to form seacrete products. The chambers would be > supplied with artificial light and electricity produced by Ambient Heat > Recovery means where the net absorption of ambient heat equals the > chemical energy put into the product because intermediate energy > misrouted within the biomanufacturing process is recycled. Material > would be moved in 3D by submersible robots or waldos. Extensive seacrete > biomanufacturing would not displace natural coral reefs. The chambers > can be set to different temperatures as needed. A large volume of > circulating seawater would produce a large amount of net energy with a > small temperature drop. Manganese nodule growing and algae based > biomanufacturing could be similar. > > Aloha, > > Charlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 07:45:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JFje3N031654; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:45:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JFjct5031632; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:45:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 07:45:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: k1ZQ2ZkVM1m3ZmO8ZCLYPsXnpW2pUvziwQylGHPXpq4q6WumXKp7WBuVrFPwNURAuR73P9xFauZlSEIHtppIzmGXJbR4SCChnguMpiMKklJvh9CRTTpX8mRxcRI_9co8XP.tBsrOwOE4Py8- Message-ID: <45B0E79E.8030506@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:45:34 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: NYC Stinks References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72120 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_016190952.html > > Experts Can't Find Source Of Mysterious NYC Odor > > (CBS/AP) JERSEY CITY Environmental officials in two states said they > have given up hope of finding the source of a mysterious odor that > swept across parts of New York City a week ago. > > New Jersey officials said they checked out more than 140 industrial > facilities in the northern part of the state to see if they were > responsible for the foul stench that drifted up the Hudson River on > Jan. 8. > > The inquiry didn't turn up any unusual emissions, said Elaine > Makatura, a spokeswoman for the state's Department of Environmental > Protection. > > > > Many have speculated that the odor is the result of methane being > released into the atmosphere due to permafrost melting. If so, we're > history. But methane is odorless, and there isn't any permafrost around Jersey City. According to the linked news story, some said it smelled like methyl mercaptan. That makes sense -- there's a lot of it around, just a few feet under the ground, in all big cities. Sounds to me like a major gas leak that the utility decided not to talk about; they lucked out that nothing blew up before they got it fixed and don't want anyone to know what a close call it was... > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 08:00:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JG0KPN011271; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:00:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JG0G9o011250; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:00:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:00:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WHL77ic5oV7Ia6QajV1w8aFazona/97ZWpt5fk1rUyBSlt8k+WnLPdRqLU2uC19lhBwcaI9MPMsNL44McGdJSy7U8SBeu7iN3o9xnZOXbv0v9Z7WJdOnHL5BVWXPKBbiC3PH1rfZW4t4EC9MVQN5rD+abFvVHgR8E4kqR+8lsgU= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:00:10 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: NYC Stinks In-Reply-To: <45B0E79E.8030506@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45B0E79E.8030506@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72121 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/19/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > But methane is odorless, and there isn't any permafrost around Jersey City. True, however, what comes from permafrost is not pure methane and is likely quite odiferous. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 08:42:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JGflAJ014520; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:41:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JGfjQ6014501; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:41:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:41:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: NYC Stinks X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 909b8a8ff0cae19159d456a4b333f05c Reply-To: michael.foster@excite.com From: "Michael Foster" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: michael.foster@excite.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20070119164142.CE3258B3AF@xprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:41:42 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72122 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If it smelled like methyl mercaptan, it probably was methyl mercaptan. It's added to natural gas to make it stink, as a safety measure. Consequently, most people associate the odor with a gas leak. The smell of swamp gas from permafrost, while disagreeable, does not resemble methyl mercaptan, even though it contains some. Humans are capable of detecting this nasty stuff in the parts per trillion range. I suspect there was an accident or a prank in NYC. A couple of small tanks of this stuff spread properly could stink up the whole damn city. I speak from experience.(Don't ask.) Ethyl mercaptan, with a similar odor is a liquid and would be more easily handled by the prank-minded individual ;) M. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 10:30:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JIUfaH018816; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:30:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JIUd6e018802; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:30:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:30:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119130744.03621290@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:30:11 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <5hV69B.A.qlE.O5QsFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72123 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union Status: O X-Status: The lead story in today's Yomiuri newspaper (in Japanese) says that Bush will announce new steps to address global warming in his State of the Union speech on Jan. 23. He will emphasize "ethanol and other alternative fuels." Sigh . . . Well, at least there has been some anti-ethanol press lately. I saw articles in Sci. Am., Consumer Reports, and the Atlanta Journal calling into question the use of ethanol. One of them reported a horrifying statistic: filling up a 25 gallon tank with ethanol fuel uses up as much potential nutrition from corn as a human being consumes in a year. That seems over the top but . . . Yikes, it is as bad as that. Ethanol has 89 MJ/gallon. 25 gallons * 89 MJ = 2,225 MJ. That converts to 531,788 kilocalories. Divide by 2,000 recommended daily allowance and you get 266 days. (I am ignoring fossil fuel and electric power input, which are ~1.7 times the total energy output of the ethanol.) Perhaps the ethanol factories extract more energy per kilogram of corn that human digestion does, but I doubt it. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 10:40:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JIdsuJ028868; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:39:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JIdpLZ028835; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:39:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:39:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=c5vpkEo8l4rbEUDwxOA6sS+4L3S3ZokprkAyzGC0iobl8foizgBy83h+F9KWrnS9mv2R5NYOefxl82M5ocX1JT00vAaWX4T6vsysz3oX/jzzWckab8fnz+kzkSzsaiXnWdAPG6JvKWCA4dQyAQF6ssWb47V8GrjVKDmaExUQQXc= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:39:49 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72124 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: since part of the process of making ethanol is making corn syrup, which converts a lot of the partially digested starches to sugars, yes, actually, the whole process is likely more effecient to burn then to eat. also, corn is already in just about everything we eat. we grow more corn than we and our livestock can eat. especially the high yeild gm corn that isnt allowed to be sold to people at the moment. seriously, its not a cureall, but why be down on ethanol? (especially with the photosynthetic yeast programs that will massively drop the costs. ) On 1/19/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > The lead story in today's Yomiuri newspaper (in Japanese) says that > Bush will announce new steps to address global warming in his State > of the Union speech on Jan. 23. He will emphasize "ethanol and other > alternative fuels." > > Sigh . . . > > Well, at least there has been some anti-ethanol press lately. I saw > articles in Sci. Am., Consumer Reports, and the Atlanta Journal > calling into question the use of ethanol. One of them reported a > horrifying statistic: filling up a 25 gallon tank with ethanol fuel > uses up as much potential nutrition from corn as a human being > consumes in a year. > > That seems over the top but . . . Yikes, it is as bad as that. > Ethanol has 89 MJ/gallon. 25 gallons * 89 MJ = 2,225 MJ. That > converts to 531,788 kilocalories. Divide by 2,000 recommended daily > allowance and you get 266 days. (I am ignoring fossil fuel and > electric power input, which are ~1.7 times the total energy output of > the ethanol.) Perhaps the ethanol factories extract more energy per > kilogram of corn that human digestion does, but I doubt it. > > - Jed > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 10:55:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JItbTe010374; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:55:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JItaLR010356; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:55:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:55:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119134801.03619e98@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:55:29 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72125 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >since part of the process of making ethanol is making corn syrup, >which converts a lot of the partially digested starches to sugars, >yes, actually, the whole process is likely more effecient to burn then to eat. Well, that's good. >. . . also, corn is already in just about everything we eat. we >grow more corn than we and our livestock can eat. Who's we? Two billion people in the world are malnourished or starving. They can digest corn syrup, by the way. >seriously, its not a cureall, but why be down on ethanol? I am down on ethanol because because it takes food out of people's mouths, because it consumes far more fossil fuel that it produces, and because even if we converted all of the food in the United States into ethanol, we would still not have more than a tiny fraction of what we need to run our automobiles. >(especially with the photosynthetic yeast programs that will >massively drop the costs. ) After these programs pan out (if they do), THEN we should start building ethanol factories. Not before. I have no complaints about the bio-diesel from algae schemes, as long as they do not use up much productive land. In desert land near large cities such as Los Angeles or Las Vegas I think it would be better to set mechanical solar to electric power devices, but there is plenty of other desert land or marginal land that could be devoted to algae production. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 11:28:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JJRv7U023672; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:27:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JJRtQ7023650; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:27:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:27:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fsvwiH4DDDpGpGCs+eZQH0AWED5mIC6iTDidcO5RYYzvgKiY5GHfbsIFSsbCv+rufGOAICGe48mFjVrVzQ+r07gOA5EDkSMB5Eh4sl1FM8sWCJ2ie+Uc8dDTthGwzXNOtqL1cVS40X1LexORqQNMOCmH9Cn1EHLhrYsSOpBBO8U= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:27:51 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119134801.03619e98@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070119134801.03619e98@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72126 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, besides the issues that have been shown with too much corn syrup, shipping foods grown here overseas not really all the econmocal. better to get growing programs going, personally. I fail to see how it uses more fossil fuels than fuels it produces, please share. And it will also help push new techniques and higher efficiency growing, so that will help. and immagine if all the money being spent on drilling, pumping, and refining, werent? the good that could be done with the numerical savings. On 1/19/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > leaking pen wrote: > > >since part of the process of making ethanol is making corn syrup, > >which converts a lot of the partially digested starches to sugars, > >yes, actually, the whole process is likely more effecient to burn then to eat. > > Well, that's good. > > > >. . . also, corn is already in just about everything we eat. we > >grow more corn than we and our livestock can eat. > > Who's we? Two billion people in the world are malnourished or > starving. They can digest corn syrup, by the way. > > > >seriously, its not a cureall, but why be down on ethanol? > > I am down on ethanol because because it takes food out of people's > mouths, because it consumes far more fossil fuel that it produces, > and because even if we converted all of the food in the United States > into ethanol, we would still not have more than a tiny fraction of > what we need to run our automobiles. > > > >(especially with the photosynthetic yeast programs that will > >massively drop the costs. ) > > After these programs pan out (if they do), THEN we should start > building ethanol factories. Not before. > > I have no complaints about the bio-diesel from algae schemes, as long > as they do not use up much productive land. In desert land near large > cities such as Los Angeles or Las Vegas I think it would be better to > set mechanical solar to electric power devices, but there is plenty > of other desert land or marginal land that could be devoted to algae > production. > > - Jed > > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 11:54:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JJs7Uo025111; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:54:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JJrw8q025050; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:53:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:53:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119143814.035ad5a8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 14:53:48 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070119134801.03619e98@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1716359==.ALT" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72127 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=====================_1716359==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed leaking pen wrote: >Well, besides the issues that have been shown with too much corn >syrup . . . As I said, one third of the people who will do not get enough to eat. Too much corn syrup would be far better than starvation. >shipping foods grown here overseas not really all the econmocal. Most US food is shipped overseas. >I fail to see how it uses more fossil fuels than fuels it produces, >please share. See: Pimentel, D. and M. Pimentel, Food, Energy, and Society, Revised Edition. 1996: University Press of Colorado, chapter 19. (Or Google "Pimentel") >And it will also help push new techniques and higher efficiency >growing, so that will help. Not good. "High-efficiency agriculture" in the US means the rape and permanent destruction of the land. See Pimentel, and chapter 16 of my book. Essentially, U.S. corn production is a form of strip-mining, where we destroy the topsoil and the water table. If we keep doing it for a few hundred more years Iowa will look like present-day Iraq. The arid US Great Plains are already in environmental peril. See: http://www.gprc.org/index.htm As I said in my book, agriculture is the most destructive industry on earth and the sooner we get rid of it the better. We need to grow food indoors. For one thing, this would use up thousands of times less space, and with recycled water and nutrients from sewage, that would consume no land or water. We need to get human beings out of the ecosystem loop. Nature should only have to support wild animals, not people or domesticated animals. Fishing and growing meat in live animals is also backwards, dangerous, cruel and grossly inefficient. This kind of primitive technology is long overdue for replacement, like the internal combustion engine. Fortunately, the people at the New Harvest Research Organization report progress in replacing meat: http://www.new-harvest.org/default.php - Jed --=====================_1716359==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" leaking pen wrote:

Well, besides the issues that have been shown with too much corn
syrup . . .

As I said, one third of the people who will do not get enough to eat. Too much corn syrup would be far better than starvation.


shipping foods grown here overseas not really all the econmocal.

Most US food is shipped overseas.


I fail to see how it uses more fossil fuels than fuels it produces,
please share.

See: Pimentel, D. and M. Pimentel, Food, Energy, and Society, Revised Edition. 1996: University Press of Colorado, chapter 19. (Or Google "Pimentel")


And it will also help push new techniques and higher efficiency growing, so that will help.

Not good. "High-efficiency agriculture" in the US means the rape and permanent destruction of the land. See Pimentel, and chapter 16 of my book. Essentially, U.S. corn production is a form of strip-mining, where we destroy the topsoil and the water table. If we keep doing it for a few hundred more years Iowa will look like present-day Iraq. The arid US Great Plains are already in environmental peril. See:

http://www.gprc.org/index.htm

As I said in my book, agriculture is the most destructive industry on earth and the sooner we get rid of it the better. We need to grow food indoors. For one thing, this would use up thousands of times less space, and with recycled water and nutrients from sewage, that would consume no land or water. We need to get human beings out of the ecosystem loop. Nature should only have to support wild animals, not people or domesticated animals.

Fishing and growing meat in live animals is also backwards, dangerous, cruel and grossly inefficient. This kind of primitive technology is long overdue for replacement, like the internal combustion engine.

Fortunately, the people at the New Harvest Research Organization report progress in replacing meat: http://www.new-harvest.org/default.php

- Jed
--=====================_1716359==.ALT-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 12:07:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JK7Ack030285; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:07:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JK78Z5030268; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:07:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:07:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=I3UjNrWmKVQ1K1nDLjrg0VRK3LTy8GXKO+l07BdQXgGy46aIegoiwq4Nfz8E2aom+EwUpeNRHJgz7MS3+49fwHBaXY1tlbfnsF+ApSdSBSelfBskkof20BDksfqoba+gVY/KOALdidcMybJjyxuoxvK7k6bgNrfUlvIuhaXMFTE= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:07:04 -0700 From: "leaking pen" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119143814.035ad5a8@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070119134801.03619e98@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070119143814.035ad5a8@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72128 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That type of growing would be what i meant by more efficient. agreed. a single multistory building with perfect climate and soil control would be great. hell, run pigs and cattle on the top floor, and drop fertilizer down. On 1/19/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > leaking pen wrote: > > Well, besides the issues that have been shown with too much corn > syrup . . . > As I said, one third of the people who will do not get enough to eat. Too > much corn syrup would be far better than starvation. > > > shipping foods grown here overseas not really all the econmocal. > Most US food is shipped overseas. > > > I fail to see how it uses more fossil fuels than fuels it produces, > please share. > See: Pimentel, D. and M. Pimentel, Food, Energy, and Society, Revised > Edition. 1996: University Press of Colorado, chapter 19. (Or Google > "Pimentel") > > > And it will also help push new techniques and higher efficiency growing, so > that will help. > Not good. "High-efficiency agriculture" in the US means the rape and > permanent destruction of the land. See Pimentel, and chapter 16 of my book. > Essentially, U.S. corn production is a form of strip-mining, where we > destroy the topsoil and the water table. If we keep doing it for a few > hundred more years Iowa will look like present-day Iraq. The arid US Great > Plains are already in environmental peril. See: > > http://www.gprc.org/index.htm > > As I said in my book, agriculture is the most destructive industry on earth > and the sooner we get rid of it the better. We need to grow food indoors. > For one thing, this would use up thousands of times less space, and with > recycled water and nutrients from sewage, that would consume no land or > water. We need to get human beings out of the ecosystem loop. Nature should > only have to support wild animals, not people or domesticated animals. > > Fishing and growing meat in live animals is also backwards, dangerous, cruel > and grossly inefficient. This kind of primitive technology is long overdue > for replacement, like the internal combustion engine. > > Fortunately, the people at the New Harvest Research Organization report > progress in replacing meat: > http://www.new-harvest.org/default.php > > - Jed > -- That which yields isn't always weak. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 12:19:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JKJZsi018230; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:19:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JKJWR3018201; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:19:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:19:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119151139.03637238@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:19:25 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070119134801.03619e98@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070119143814.035ad5a8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72129 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: leaking pen wrote: >That type of growing would be what i meant by more efficient. agreed. >a single multistory building with perfect climate and soil control >would be great. Except that you cannot produce ethanol from that because the light from indoor agriculture has to be artificial. There is not enough sunlight, especially with the multistory building. In the food factory I described in chapter 16, they use high-efficiency LEDs. (See the photos.) As I showed in Chapter 16, overall, on a per capita basis, indoor farming uses about 2.5 times more energy than total average US energy consumption per capita, and that is just for vegetable production. Clearly this method cannot be used with conventional energy sources such as coal or even solar or wind power. It has to be fission or cold fusion. (The book I am talking about, by the way, is here: http://lenr-canr.org/BookBlurb.htm) >hell, run pigs and cattle on the top floor, and drop fertilizer down. Seriously, that would use an incredible amount of energy, and keeping animals crowded together in large buildings is cruel. I hope that we can soon grow meat in vitro, instead. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 12:29:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JKTHQH009463; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:29:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JKTGLV009440; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:29:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:29:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:27:35 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119151139.03637238@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <9EVw5B.A.bTC.boSsFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72130 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: I hope that we > can soon grow meat in vitro, instead. > > - Jed > ...or Star Trek style replicators to make any kind of food you want. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 12:45:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JKj9qL022876; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:45:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JKj5OK022841; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:45:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:45:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: NYC Stinks Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:44:58 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <45B0E79E.8030506@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45B0E79E.8030506@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 19 Jan 2007 20:44:57 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0JKivrK022609 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72131 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:45:34 -0500: Hi, [snip all] If the source is natural, it could be a precursor to major tectonic activity. NYC hasn't had a major Earthquake for time I believe, so I think one is more or less due. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 12:48:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JKm1hZ017977; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:48:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JKm0ET017962; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:48:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:48:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119153933.0363b368@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:47:51 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119151139.03637238@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72132 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: >...or Star Trek style replicators to make any kind of food you want. In the far distant future -- thousands of years from now -- I expect that something like replicators will exist, and they will make anything we want. Any object, not just food. However, I am talking about the present day, and the near future. Food factories exist already in Japan. Fish aquaculture exists, and it produces a significant fraction of sea food. In vitro production of meat may be perfected in the next few years. If in vitro or "cultured" meat pans out, and the product tastes about as good as natural meat, or better, that I for one would be happy to eat nonaturally grown meat ever again. I am not a vegetarian, but I sympathize with their concerns. I am a hypocrite about this. So as Arthur C. Clarke. For decades, he has been saying that meat production is cruel, but I know for a fact that he loves to eat meat. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 13:01:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JL1D9B024105; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:01:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JL1BZR024080; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:01:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:01:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200701192101.l0JL19AE073066@mail1.mx.voyager.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:01:09 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_142d9a9474f122cfe64b4c4a1f77489d" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72133 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --=_142d9a9474f122cfe64b4c4a1f77489d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jed sez: ... > If in vitro or "cultured" meat pans out, and the product > tastes about as good as natural meat, or better, that I > for one would be happy to eat nonaturally grown meat > ever again. I am not a vegetarian, but I sympathize with > their concerns. I am a hypocrite about this. So as > Arthur C. Clarke. For decades, he has been saying that > meat production is cruel, but I know for a fact that he > loves to eat meat. > > - Jed I believe the esteemed Mr. Clark also suggested we should stop burning petroleum and learn how to eat it as well. ;-) "I don't want to work at Maggie's meat farm no more..." -- With apologies to B. Dylan. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_142d9a9474f122cfe64b4c4a1f77489d Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed sez:

...

> If in vitro or "cultured" meat pans out, and the product
> tastes about as good as natural meat, or better, that I
> for one would be happy to eat nonaturally grown meat
> ever again. I am not a vegetarian, but I sympathize with
> their concerns. I am a hypocrite about this. So as
> Arthur C. Clarke. For decades, he has been saying that
> meat production is cruel, but I know for a fact that he
> loves to eat meat.
>
> - Jed


I believe the esteemed Mr. Clark also suggested we should stop burning petr= oleum and learn how to eat it as well. ;-)

"I don't want to work at Maggie's meat farm no more..."

-- With apologies to B. Dylan.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_142d9a9474f122cfe64b4c4a1f77489d-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 13:45:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JLjiYd012814; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:45:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JLjgwJ012790; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:45:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:45:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119161537.035d0c10@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:45:35 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: <200701192101.l0JL19AE073066@mail1.mx.voyager.net> References: <200701192101.l0JL19AE073066@mail1.mx.voyager.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <9BdSFB.A.uHD.GwTsFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72134 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: >I believe the esteemed Mr. Clark also suggested we should stop >burning petroleum and learn how to eat it as well. ;-) He did, and it is a darned good idea. Actually, for the most part we do this already, since we use petroleum-based fertilizer. Oil consumed as food also ends up as carbon dioxide, of course, but overall oil consumption would fall if we eat the stuff because cars eat 10 times more fuel than people do. Eventually we need cold fusion-based recycling of sewage, that produces sterile, bacteria free, odor free fertilizer and plastic, with something like a thermal depolymerization plant. Regarding futuristic replicators that produce any kind of food you want, I touched on them briefly in chapter 16. In the upcoming Japanese edition of the book I added some interesting details, including image #1 from IBM's STM Image Gallery, "Atom": http://www.almaden.ibm.com/vis/stm/atomo.html I do not know whether the publisher can use that image or not, but anyway, in the text I say that this kind of technology may be the first primitive step toward atomic level manufacturing, in which a single machine can assemble any object, atom by atom, molecule by molecule. The input will be from an array of elements. Or, if small-scale nucleosynthesis can be perfected so that we can make any element we want, perhaps the raw material will be one large chunk of a single element. It would be something inert and dense that does not take up much space or cause a health hazard. My guess is: either water or gold. Needless to say, Clarke and others predicted this decades ago, and Clarke described it in detail in "Profiles of the Future." For a food synthesizer, basically all you need are hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, and pinch of salts (sodium and potassium). The hoppers for other elements would run out infrequently, like a little-used color in a multi-cartridge high-end inkjet printer. (A professional artwork inkjet printer such as the Epson 2200 has seven color cartridges.) I should probably translate that section from Japanese into English and issue a new version of the book, but I am heartily sick of translating. Sergio Bacchi is translating the book into Portuguese, and I promised him I would replace the Introduction with a less prolix version based on the Japanese edition, but I do not have the moxie to deal with it now. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 15:03:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0JN3JCM018256; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:03:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0JN3HCx018242; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:03:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:03:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001c01c73c1d$fc5fe690$849b163f@DFBGQZ91> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:03:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72135 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 1:30 PM Subject: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union > Well, at least there has been some anti-ethanol press lately. I saw > articles in Sci. Am., Consumer Reports, and the Atlanta Journal calling > into question the use of ethanol. One of them reported a horrifying > statistic: filling up a 25 gallon tank with ethanol fuel uses up as much > potential nutrition from corn as a human being consumes in a year. I don't know if it is as bad as all that, but word I hear is the massive use of corn for ethanol is playing hell with the Mexicans. Apparently, the price of corn (a major food stuff there, as I am sure you are all aware) has been driven up over there. Fingers are being pointed at the ethanol business. There is no bound it seems to human stupidity. We are literally talking about burning our food for fuel. Why? This is the most inefficient use of solar energy there is. Sunlight + nutrients + fertilizers derived from petrochemicals + labor + uncertain growing conditions ----> extremely low efficiency conversion of ethanol + hungry people and more slash and burn agriculture. Why not save a few steps? Sunlight ----> electricity via steam turbines + synthetic fuels. BTW, what was the real story behind Solar One (think this is the one I am thinking of) anyways? Did it just not perform well, or was it axed? --Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 19:40:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0K3erUM030395; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 19:40:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0K3em0d030357; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 19:40:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 19:40:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=MxhuBh3ubycPFzvAaU9n+FSF3c5BHDiCuqRR45/E4n/a9zuRHUbht7dNVL0GJfHxARTgvS7BLCOSAdOLwQa7PO/EaHSFiS6tQW2ufCJ+zW+Fp0N1wcK6+LLv9pHTvjGcT/C0S6rQDPn5K15DUuCDJeuYnjXpizN0emXjHCxwpq8= ; X-YMail-OSG: Zd5KCJAVM1lyiUh8guFOXLpJb6q0RTSy.3k0JGNoBCO6uCBlOwzMI9SCEQIe.OrdDQ-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20070119222930.01effa20@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 22:39:55 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: <001c01c73c1d$fc5fe690$849b163f@DFBGQZ91> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> <001c01c73c1d$fc5fe690$849b163f@DFBGQZ91> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72136 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is another way of making ethanol: from cellulose. There's a process that uses an enzyme that converts the cellulose to sugar from which it is converted to ethanol. The process is proven; ethanol is being produced this way. Nobody seems to have taken notice of this process, which was pioneered by a company in Ottawa. The main (apparent) drawback was how to get feedstock for the process; in other words the logistics of procuring cellulose (preferably waste) and getting it to the plant. The answer is very simple, and nobody has listened to what I've said about it. It doesn't lie within the energy industry, it lies instead within the pulp and paper industry, an industry that is well acquainted with handling both "clean" and waste (stumpage, leaves, etc.) cellulose. It's a long but simple story, but in the end, the pulp and paper industry - with (at least in Canada) all these mills closing down or losing money - could be at the forefront. The whole approach depends on NOT thinking big (apparently one energy corporation was/is considering spending about $250 million on such a plant to produce... 20 million gallons of ethanol per year; about a 15 year payback. Real insanity. Far better to build many small plants (using an improved/evolving process) where the feedstock and the handling expertise are. P. At 06:03 PM 1/19/2007 -0500, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" >To: >Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 1:30 PM >Subject: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union > > >>Well, at least there has been some anti-ethanol press lately. I saw >>articles in Sci. Am., Consumer Reports, and the Atlanta Journal calling >>into question the use of ethanol. One of them reported a horrifying >>statistic: filling up a 25 gallon tank with ethanol fuel uses up as much >>potential nutrition from corn as a human being consumes in a year. > >I don't know if it is as bad as all that, but word I hear is the massive >use of corn for ethanol is playing hell with the Mexicans. Apparently, the >price of corn (a major food stuff there, as I am sure you are all aware) >has been driven up over there. Fingers are being pointed at the ethanol >business. There is no bound it seems to human stupidity. We are literally >talking about burning our food for fuel. Why? This is the most inefficient >use of solar energy there is. > >Sunlight + nutrients + fertilizers derived from petrochemicals + labor + >uncertain growing conditions ----> extremely low efficiency conversion of >ethanol + hungry people and more slash and burn agriculture. Why not save >a few steps? Sunlight ----> electricity via steam turbines + synthetic fuels. > >BTW, what was the real story behind Solar One (think this is the one I am >thinking of) anyways? Did it just not perform well, or was it axed? > >--Kyle From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 19 21:54:00 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0K5rs0V028849; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:53:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0K5rl8o028803; Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:53:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:53:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=DZ4xQ9XSdc+IhRfY6xjE0gMUZh8W+dMGFYs/ZfHv08NC4S+MkjVs2YXmLAD6QxQq; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <27195894.1169272427627.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:53:47 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d8b85e99fa606b2700b2e4f4b6c467d08c1a036a86675380a6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.39 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72137 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 19, 2007 Status: O X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Jan 19, 2007 1:50 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 19, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 19 Jan 07 Washington, DC 1. GRAND CANYON: A GORGE THAT SEPARATES SCIENCE FROM IDEOLOGY. Three years ago, along with many others, WN covered the story of a creationist book on sale in Grand Canyon National Park that attributed the Grand Canyon to Noah's flood. The book is still on sale, and there are still plaques at scenic overlooks quoting Genesis. A 28 Dec 06 press release from PEER (Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility) charged that Park Service employees are not allowed to give visitors an official estimate of the age of the canyon. What's New, Doonesbury, Skeptic magazine and a host of other sources with skeptical credentials, bought into that story too. This time, however, the charge was apparently fabricated. We are grateful to Michael Shermer, editor of Skeptic magazine, for ferreting out the truth, and I join him in apologizing for being so easily duped. 2. OBSERVING EARTH: NAS CALLS FOR A "SURGE" IN CLIMATE RESEARCH. On Monday, the National Academy of Sciences released a two-year study, "Earth Science and Applications from Space: National Imperatives for the Next Decade." We can count polar bears, stick thermometers in the ocean, and measure the hair on wooly caterpillars, but the only way to find out what's going on with global warming is to study Earth from space. The Academy report finds that NASA's earth science budget has fallen by 30 percent, while the number of operating Earth-observing instruments on NASA satellites will fall by 40 percent by 2010. The funds are being siphoned off to prepare for a manned science station on the moon. NASA seems unable to describe just what science will be done. 3. AN INCONVENIENT QUESTION: WHAT IS THE EARTH'S ENERGY BALANCE? The Earth's albedo, or reflectivity, is fundamental to global climate. We don't know what it is. The only instrument capable of measuring and continuously monitoring the albedo is the Deep Space Climate Observatory (DSCOVR). Already built and paid for, it sits in a warehouse at Goddard SFC waiting to be delivered to the Lagrange-1 point, about a million miles in the direction of the sun. We understand why President Bush may not like DSCOVR. But not much has been heard from Congress or the public. 4. CONTINUING RESOLUTION: IT'S GOING TO BE A VERY LONG TWO YEARS. The Republican controlled Congress failed to get its work done in the fall, making some sort of continuing resolution almost inevitable. "Dear Colleague" letters went out this week urging appropriators to give priority to science in a continuing resolution, but a CR is by its nature a mindless steam roller. Meanwhile, the President is expected to make balancing the budget without raising taxes the main theme of his State of the Union address next Tuesday, even as he orders a "surge" in Iraq. Look for RIFs at DOE facilities and shortened operating time for accelerators and light sources. RHIC may not run at all in 2007. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 07:23:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KFNakG005844; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:23:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KFNT1E005799; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:23:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:23:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:23:20 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <45A9D4FD.7090205@usfamily.net> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <3_3ag.A.SaB.uPjsFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72138 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: RE: Steorn Free Energy announces open-source licensing agreement Status: O X-Status: More information from Sean McCarthy of Steorn: Their motor has non constant speed per revolution output and a flywheel (and presumably spring) must be used if you want smoothness. 3D magnetic field computer simulations do not show the Steorn effect ( http://www.cedrat.com/ , http://www.cedrat.com/applications/software/doc/Have_already_considering_flu x3d_in_your_rear_mirrors.pdf#search=%22Flux3d%22)( Something wrong with conventional theory, eh? ). Remember, as previously stated, their machine will not run in a plane. Do you know if the Cedrat software models magnetic viscosity or just how closely it fully implements conventional EM theory? I think Peter Graneau has already shown many anomalies in EM theory. Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 07:50:50 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KFobUR019195; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:50:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KFoa1d019176; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:50:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:50:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ToFuj+uZ9kyqbcJa41oKInpkGELS9bATr3f/DENITgeU/xsa1RGkCfK+vF3WG1VefDvpo7J2cPNzUaWZ+rJMtx+bbqEqDJllz1Dftc3Rdlf237yP2jTMID7cSFiJ651v1Jv6hQRnRzddwvD9oa7AktX63NGRNAMDWrmmIAdsSTg= ; X-YMail-OSG: DcbMQzoVM1kPnacer_iUtT08br12cBwMAo7qgqFdvz8Fby1aXDuvBAGnzHV2UkjVmvejbI9rn2rUHrHEIJmDMNPaVaojQhXhoBJywRwl2Iy.BwAd4.s- Message-ID: <45B23A48.3040705@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:50:32 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> <001c01c73c1d$fc5fe690$849b163f@DFBGQZ91> <6.1.1.1.1.20070119222930.01effa20@pop> In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20070119222930.01effa20@pop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72139 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union Status: O X-Status: Philip Winestone wrote: > Nobody seems to have taken notice of this process, which was pioneered > by a company in Ottawa. Well - not exactly ! Our (USA) DOE/NREL has poured lots of its precious (underfunded) resources into this exact area : http://www.ethanol-gec.org/information/briefing/2.pdf From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 07:51:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KFpVX6008024; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:51:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KFpTi1008014; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:51:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:51:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=XkDzYReVw0ufZPZx0Bg3cdaaB3o914Lq0CQoBZ4g+2XGWf/c+2PKOikD9k/88MjMNlxqwnN51e3npLBbzk/EqjrCOr7tiVZw0OLQls56D2M7X5/TBL9rE4fI6II1gb7wo+G99CQ/XTes4g6NSfNK9Gc6tIqHapUAdL0CdHba83Y= Message-ID: <538fa8f10701200751o60f710b0r267980180baafe6a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 17:51:25 +0200 From: "Esa Ruoho" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: RE: Steorn Free Energy announces open-source licensing agreement In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_188083_1882669.1169308285969" References: <45A9D4FD.7090205@usfamily.net> Resent-Message-ID: <8sU9XB.A.K9B.AqjsFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72140 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_188083_1882669.1169308285969 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIAV089eLLw youtube seems to be full of people trying to replicate steorn based on various tests and whatnot. hope this url somehow helps. the compilation that someone on vortexlist made was brilliant! thank you very much :) On 20/01/07, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > > > > More information from Sean McCarthy of Steorn: > > Their motor has non constant speed per revolution output and a flywheel > (and > presumably spring) must be used if you want smoothness. > > 3D magnetic field computer simulations do not show the Steorn effect ( > http://www.cedrat.com/ , > > http://www.cedrat.com/applications/software/doc/Have_already_considering_flu > x3d_in_your_rear_mirrors.pdf#search=%22Flux3d%22)( Something wrong with > conventional theory, eh? ). Remember, as previously stated, their machine > will not run in a plane. > > Do you know if the Cedrat software models magnetic viscosity or just how > closely it fully implements conventional EM theory? > I think Peter Graneau has already shown many anomalies in EM theory. > > > Hoyt Stearns > Scottsdale, Arizona US > > ------=_Part_188083_1882669.1169308285969 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIAV089eLLw

youtube seems to be full of people trying to replicate steorn based on various tests and whatnot. hope this url somehow helps.
the compilation that someone on vortexlist made was brilliant! thank you very much :)


On 20/01/07, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. < hoyt-stearns@cox.net> wrote:


More information from Sean McCarthy of Steorn:

Their motor has non constant speed per revolution output and a flywheel (and
presumably spring) must be used if you want smoothness.

3D magnetic field computer simulations do not show the Steorn effect (
http://www.cedrat.com/ ,
http://www.cedrat.com/applications/software/doc/Have_already_considering_flu
x3d_in_your_rear_mirrors.pdf#search=%22Flux3d%22)( Something wrong with
conventional theory, eh? ).  Remember, as previously stated, their machine
will not run in a plane.

Do you know if the Cedrat software models magnetic viscosity or just how
closely it fully implements conventional EM theory?
I think Peter Graneau has already shown many anomalies in EM theory.


Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona US


------=_Part_188083_1882669.1169308285969-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 07:53:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KFrNSv020926; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:53:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KFrLUg020902; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:53:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:53:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=K9gzimTX+qmgfI61cUmRNTmODGuV7OIER0u+UxXSSG1kTuVUyJNzTpk1seezj4Ei; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <17907460.1169308401120.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 10:53:20 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c1a02c84089a9614979f57c6c38f732c452088f571e9abe6e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0KFrJHQ020877 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72141 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: BioScience editorial by Pimentel and Patzek Status: O X-Status: Dr. Pimentel sent me this yesterday. Editorial: Green Plants, Fossil Fuels, and Now Biofuels BioScience Volume 56: 875. November 2006 For 700 million years, green plants contributed to the formation of soil, oil, natural gas, and coal. As the human population increases, so too does the consumption of soil and fossil energy. If this trend continues unabated, humans will consume most of these precious resources within the next few hundred years. By 1850, when wood accounted for 91 percent of US energy consumption and the US population was less than 10 percent of the current 300 million, serious wood shortages already existed. Now, with only about 4.5 percent of the world population, the United States accounts for a quarter of total fossil fuel use, the largest per capita consumption of any country. Between 1850 and 2000, 90 percent of the US oil endowment was mined. Converting grain or other biomass into ethanol is currently a popular idea, but it is not a new one. It requires fertile soil, large quantities of water, and sunlight for green plant production. Green plants in the United States collect about 53 exajoules of energy per year from sunlight. Americans consume slightly more than twice that amount, however. Enthusiasts suggest that ethanol produced from corn and cellulosic biomass could replace much of the oil used in the United States. Yet the 18 percent of the US corn crop that is now converted into 4.5 billion gallons of ethanol replaces only 1 percent of US petroleum consumption. If the entire corn crop were used, it would replace only 6 percent. And because the country has lost over a third of its agricultural topsoil, no large increase in the corn crop is possible. Our up-to-date analysis of the 14 energy inputs that typically go into corn production and the 9 invested in fermentation and distillation operations confirms that 29 percent more energy (derived from fossil fuels) is required to produce a gallon of corn ethanol than is contained in the ethanol. Ethanol from cellulosic biomass is worse: With current technology, 50 percent more energy is required to produce a gallon than the product can deliver. Investigators differ over the energy value of the by-products of making corn ethanol, but the credits range only from 10 percent to 60 percent. In any event, biomass ethanol is a bad choice from an energy standpoint. Moreover, the environmental impacts of corn ethanol are enormous. They include severe soil erosion, heavy use of nitrogen fertilizer and pesticides, and a significant contribution to global warming. In addition, each gallon of ethanol requires 1700 gallons of water (mostly to grow the corn) and produces 6 to 12 gallons of noxious organic effluent. Using food crops, such as corn grain, to produce ethanol also raises major ethical concerns. More than 3.7 billion humans in the world are currently malnourished, so the need for grains and other foods is critical. Growing crops to provide fuel squanders resources; better options to reduce our dependence on oil are available. Energy conservation and development of renewable energy sources, such as solar cells and solar-based methanol synthesis, should be given priority. David Pimentel College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, Cornell University Tad Patzek Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, University of California–Berkeley From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 08:12:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KGChmn003512; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:12:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KGCc1f003481; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:12:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:12:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=rtC31GnScIdxNFtrujVnIxh4iGbqknNX+CjeY/UmCleQU0BZ0VHxrRd9GIDLzMUT/i0QR/4zij/TmjQGVsbQ3dApyoh86MKZg6++5jWEjTo6O68jhxtl72VJrfIogIgl4CBzRbSILkrm9yv/8NY4gW8HhUgRmylX2mQZx3d0sFo=; X-YMail-OSG: m9WzfsYVM1l6_MuHvqOQDqdLN1yTDDTKypsyLrtBnzBvr4AZfHQqXatLbJ2glCYP4a46mANtYp43N2Be6jEXWLjV41h_Iu6.AvTILSD7U_ogmD_.Um1mIp0mnGCnY8PHqT8n1guEOGClfCRL_R41JjJMlpS6w2w8nOp3WmROepYaHsj3Wr7TuIjv.8k- Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:12:35 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <10785.18122.qm@web62406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72142 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > In fact, I can now describe all atomic orbits > > _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html_ > (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html) > > > enjoy > > Frank Znidarsic Maybe you're interested in the late Bruce Depalma's work --> Gyro Drop Experiment: http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html Understanding the Dropping of the Spinning Ball Experiment: http://depalma.pair.com/SpinningBall(Understanding).html Home page: http://depalma.pair.com/ I'm uncertain why Bruce Depalma's work is ignored. I visited Bruce when he lived in Santa Barbara, CA. From what I know it seems legit. The common "free energy" N-machine power measurements are simple-- DC in, DC out. I know Bruce had Electrical Engineer test his machines. One of the earlier published data clearly shows "free energy." IMHO either this was one of the biggest scams or it's legit. Some may thing the N-machine appears too simple to generate "free energy," but Bruce's wide range of experiments dealing with gravity & inertia revealed spinning objects change the surrounds. The falling ball experiments are classical examples --> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html Bruce's N-machines produce appreciably high angular forces-- over 9000 G's. Perhaps that's a window for "free energy." http://www.rexresearch.com/trombly/trombly.htm http://www.rexresearch.com/tewari/tewari.htm http://www.rexresearch.com/depalma/depalma.htm Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 08:32:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KGVo2A009891; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:31:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KGVmKO009875; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:31:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:31:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=EmePEJESgcPl3p2+Cai/YMDxX7OLfibgCQVc2JGEhZgqAm3ztMfySF8fgfrtQe/KJLN3rOGCtVBFEeLrpwrikQp9zm9pp10fGx4+u6Gsw9fXJTnckhEmmi+XsJuHbtF4Fj3Zj00SLb3hCbGv5Ua7ACRONZbosinhozAr4JQxO6o=; X-YMail-OSG: bkHikfgVM1lJAyBPk1P73iA3dJQoRWAFoQRAObXeC0EZeAmeKkH7cDJIJmOFNx0EJieLFVlQAWBTBhHKo0zEYEqsQOLe5aBe.gF1sXQC2MPg8WgQZPRDpMRQN5qSuNMjCM_.c_qpgfNhhd.84zDo7z4tuXCONy3uUvUlG8QUkc973tAmQCNbdoX05VY- Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:31:44 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: RE: Steorn Free Energy announces open-source licensing agreement To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <793383.56020.qm@web62414.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72143 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. wrote: > > More information from Sean McCarthy of Steorn: > > Their motor has non constant speed per revolution output and a flywheel (and > presumably spring) must be used if you want smoothness. > > 3D magnetic field computer simulations do not show the Steorn effect ( > http://www.cedrat.com/ , > http://www.cedrat.com/applications/software/doc/Have_already_considering_flu > x3d_in_your_rear_mirrors.pdf#search=%22Flux3d%22)( Something wrong with > conventional theory, eh? ). Remember, as previously stated, their machine > will not run in a plane. > > Do you know if the Cedrat software models magnetic viscosity or just how > closely it fully implements conventional EM theory? > I think Peter Graneau has already shown many anomalies in EM theory. > > > Hoyt Stearns > Scottsdale, Arizona US Such simulation software has no model of real magnetic materials, but only predicts common situations and common materials. Presently I'm in the process of writing such simulation software that will simulate magnetic avalanches, domains, etc. What occurs in real magnetic materials is extremely complex with energy exchanges. Such energy exchanges can actually cool or heat the magnetic material in the case of MCE (Magnetocaloric effect). Here's one many examples --> In the case of certain nanocrystalline amorphous cores an infinitesimal applied field generates a magnetic micro avalanche. Once the micro avalanche begins then it's difficult to halt until it completes. That releases kinetic energy due to magnetic entropy. We could use a mousetrap as an analogy where a small amount of energy is required to release a large amount of energy. The reverse process is due to ambient temperature, which is why the magnetic material cools when the applied field is removed. The "free energy" is there. The trick is in learning how to *efficiently* extract such energy. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 08:46:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KGkCmU026043; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:46:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KGkBOi026027; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:46:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:46:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [192.82.6.11] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: <10785.18122.qm@web62406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" - A Sad Story of Fraud and Delusion Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:46:08 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jan 2007 16:46:10.0368 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D145C00:01C73CB2] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72144 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul, VO, DePalma was a very sad case. He was fired by MIT. He maintained his N Machine could never work as a motor but only as a generator. We hired Ken Wasson, an excellent magnetics consultant, to visit Bruce and he pointed out that it could be developed into a motor with a market large enough to support his research. Bruce then called me and screamed into the phone so loudly that I could hold it three feet away as he ranted that this could not be true. His work was never Over Unity and the early report suggresting otherwise was later retracted by Dr. Kinchloe as erroneous. An ME friend of mine went to work for DePalma in an effort to help him and worked for subsistance wages. This was after Bruce emigrated from the U.S. My friend concluded he was a fraud and was bilking investors. He left in disgust. There seem to be endless efforts to find value in his work ever since his death. As far as I am aware, all have come to naught. Mark >From: Paul >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" >Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:12:35 -0800 (PST) > >FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > > In fact, I can now describe all atomic orbits > > > > _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html_ > > (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html) > > > > > > enjoy > > > > Frank Znidarsic > > >Maybe you're interested in the late Bruce Depalma's >work --> > >Gyro Drop Experiment: >http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html > >Understanding the Dropping of the Spinning Ball >Experiment: >http://depalma.pair.com/SpinningBall(Understanding).html > >Home page: >http://depalma.pair.com/ > >I'm uncertain why Bruce Depalma's work is ignored. I >visited Bruce when he lived in Santa >Barbara, CA. From what I know it seems legit. The >common "free energy" N-machine power >measurements are simple-- DC in, DC out. I know Bruce >had Electrical Engineer test his >machines. One of the earlier published data clearly >shows "free energy." IMHO either this >was one of the biggest scams or it's legit. Some may >thing the N-machine appears too >simple to generate "free energy," but Bruce's wide >range of experiments dealing with >gravity & inertia revealed spinning objects change the >surrounds. The falling ball >experiments are classical examples --> >http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html > >Bruce's N-machines produce appreciably high angular >forces-- over 9000 G's. Perhaps >that's a window for "free energy." > >http://www.rexresearch.com/trombly/trombly.htm > >http://www.rexresearch.com/tewari/tewari.htm > >http://www.rexresearch.com/depalma/depalma.htm > > >Regards, >Paul Lowrance > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Be a PS3 game guru. >Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! >Games. >http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 09:40:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KHeRQG014227; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:40:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KHePsd014210; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:40:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:40:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=A8826QYIef0TT2k14UZKePEaGe/NOvZvbL2NPAU3BB9Myp2KKlcn+c+PIyK7E5JYxoUkTTwK6drW+ZvI9ACRxUBxiHs7yfL9cQPx7ZzPN7j8BNfV7uw7uEC4N6Bn+zjIpR1V4zDIq3VqvctUQs86lwyfcPYVHfRU5UnAZ6WIMKk=; X-YMail-OSG: JdNxTCcVM1m9yAhVp5vIiJHFGMZiF_izLBTbUnaVqiJ7GSNpq7mYW.p0.I8mBe22IAIVDIQBhtSaeOC_y32rx4rPIAk4oW01OjQ9T8IleF7O3Ju0MTdL9XgoJeD67sbzNJh768P2ybt8AQ.eiMd2EWKNhYa7CSFWj1wOGp9BlWxTqR64fha2wxqoV_BFYm4ZXBQSJw-- Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:40:24 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" - A Sad Story of Fraud and Delusion To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <397293.36492.qm@web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <6_kGfD.A.-dD.JQlsFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72145 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: > Paul, VO, > > DePalma was a very sad case. He was fired by MIT. He maintained his N > Machine could never work as a motor but only as a generator. We hired > Ken Wasson, an excellent magnetics consultant, to visit Bruce and he > pointed out that it could be developed into a motor with a market large > enough to support his research. Bruce then called me and screamed into > the phone so loudly that I could hold it three feet away as he ranted > that this could not be true. > > His work was never Over Unity and the early report suggresting otherwise > was later retracted by Dr. Kinchloe as erroneous. > > An ME friend of mine went to work for DePalma in an effort to help him > and worked for subsistance wages. This was after Bruce emigrated from > the U.S. My friend concluded he was a fraud and was bilking investors. > He left in disgust. > > There seem to be endless efforts to find value in his work ever since > his death. As far as I am aware, all have come to naught. > > Mark Mark, Really I'm not here to discuss Bruce's personal life and idiosyncrasies. His personal problems have *ZERO* effect on my analysis of his work. Have some simple questions for you --> 1. Can you show us any proof that Dr. Kincheloe retracted his claims. 2. Can you show us the details exactly how Dr. Kincheloe, ***a Professor of Electrical Engineering***, could make a mistake in measuring DC voltage and current? LOL 3. Can you presiley show us any mistakes found in the gyro drop experiments as performed by Performed by Kenneth Gerber, M.D., Richard F. Merritt, and analysis by Edward Delvers --> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html In reference to #2, I cannot see how a Professor of Electrical Engineering could make such simple mistakes, and therefore it seems more likely thugs threatened Dr. Kincheloe and his family. Paul Lowrance >> From: Paul >> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" >> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:12:35 -0800 (PST) >> >> FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: >> > In fact, I can now describe all atomic orbits >> > >> > _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html_ >> > (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html) >> > >> > >> > enjoy >> > >> > Frank Znidarsic >> >> >> Maybe you're interested in the late Bruce Depalma's >> work --> >> >> Gyro Drop Experiment: >> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html >> >> Understanding the Dropping of the Spinning Ball >> Experiment: >> http://depalma.pair.com/SpinningBall(Understanding).html >> >> Home page: >> http://depalma.pair.com/ >> >> I'm uncertain why Bruce Depalma's work is ignored. I >> visited Bruce when he lived in Santa >> Barbara, CA. From what I know it seems legit. The >> common "free energy" N-machine power >> measurements are simple-- DC in, DC out. I know Bruce >> had Electrical Engineer test his >> machines. One of the earlier published data clearly >> shows "free energy." IMHO either this >> was one of the biggest scams or it's legit. Some may >> thing the N-machine appears too >> simple to generate "free energy," but Bruce's wide >> range of experiments dealing with >> gravity & inertia revealed spinning objects change the >> surrounds. The falling ball >> experiments are classical examples --> >> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html >> >> Bruce's N-machines produce appreciably high angular >> forces-- over 9000 G's. Perhaps >> that's a window for "free energy." >> >> http://www.rexresearch.com/trombly/trombly.htm >> >> http://www.rexresearch.com/tewari/tewari.htm >> >> http://www.rexresearch.com/depalma/depalma.htm >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 10:03:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KI3X9u003936; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 10:03:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KI3WWb003913; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 10:03:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 10:03:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=xxmLmynUQPmoJRJvDqeysKiYjKaVMk7NqHHbnB5S6RlCzEGQ7E3iREBI+KZpAvQQcmoKY1mqbziY/zb9tq6FfrJ8P8bW0NsRxgAKositzFmR92QNdvtXFbon3fzIUgfyfwbrYlqCapLg/HcjwX62UJovQ4aTqnhJlABs/3iMvmA=; X-YMail-OSG: X5X2DQoVM1mt66QH46qaV_hg7TyvKg6ULsd6URWXNOMtH5R.EOCH1P3zqIHu7jt8zlFkzkhvctWdrwTIUck8VcxAEICt6lWBZwrk2DTqXdjCABCZL.vy31Ko0TQWcS0LzxIXgdEfd5lDouekeMr0zk6IOwW3qY5zUB2QJWXNVHqCnlhYQbyKgkFfg2utbXR4VmApLw-- Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 10:03:30 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" - A Sad Story of Fraud and Delusion To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <272508.99900.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72146 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: > Paul, VO, > > DePalma was a very sad case. He was fired by MIT. He maintained his N > Machine could never work as a motor but only as a generator. We hired > Ken Wasson, an excellent magnetics consultant, to visit Bruce and he > pointed out that it could be developed into a motor with a market large > enough to support his research. Bruce then called me and screamed into > the phone so loudly that I could hold it three feet away as he ranted > that this could not be true. > > His work was never Over Unity and the early report suggresting otherwise > was later retracted by Dr. Kinchloe as erroneous. > > An ME friend of mine went to work for DePalma in an effort to help him > and worked for subsistance wages. This was after Bruce emigrated from > the U.S. My friend concluded he was a fraud and was bilking investors. > He left in disgust. > > There seem to be endless efforts to find value in his work ever since > his death. As far as I am aware, all have come to naught. > > Mark On 2nd thought, I feel the need counter act the negativity that IMHO incorrectly portrays Bruce Depalma. Many a times I spent the day with Bruce Depalma and Andrew Mount in Santa Barbara. Not once did I ever see any such negative behavior from either one, and that's saying something given the fact I am a very blunt person. I have no idea what was happening to Bruce during the last years of his life. Understandably he may have begun to lose patience, but the Bruce I knew was a gentleman. A man who treated people with respect and kindness. A man who loved people. I remember Andrew Mount told me Bruce would call his Mother every day to help add a little something special to her life. He was a caring person! Regards, Paul Lowrance >> From: Paul >> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" >> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:12:35 -0800 (PST) >> >> FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: >> > In fact, I can now describe all atomic orbits >> > >> > _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html_ >> > (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html) >> > >> > >> > enjoy >> > >> > Frank Znidarsic >> >> >> Maybe you're interested in the late Bruce Depalma's >> work --> >> >> Gyro Drop Experiment: >> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html >> >> Understanding the Dropping of the Spinning Ball >> Experiment: >> http://depalma.pair.com/SpinningBall(Understanding).html >> >> Home page: >> http://depalma.pair.com/ >> >> I'm uncertain why Bruce Depalma's work is ignored. I >> visited Bruce when he lived in Santa >> Barbara, CA. From what I know it seems legit. The >> common "free energy" N-machine power >> measurements are simple-- DC in, DC out. I know Bruce >> had Electrical Engineer test his >> machines. One of the earlier published data clearly >> shows "free energy." IMHO either this >> was one of the biggest scams or it's legit. Some may >> thing the N-machine appears too >> simple to generate "free energy," but Bruce's wide >> range of experiments dealing with >> gravity & inertia revealed spinning objects change the >> surrounds. The falling ball >> experiments are classical examples --> >> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html >> >> Bruce's N-machines produce appreciably high angular >> forces-- over 9000 G's. Perhaps >> that's a window for "free energy." >> >> http://www.rexresearch.com/trombly/trombly.htm >> >> http://www.rexresearch.com/tewari/tewari.htm >> >> http://www.rexresearch.com/depalma/depalma.htm >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 11:49:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KJnNQg023517; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:49:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KJnLDo023500; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:49:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:49:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=nQrpOnMElEiyAM3MDk2ojjtZbdUpFyOpEZ9/mhExvMZBQfBVvB5IjrfPXK1uO2vzftOWelF5x/WsgL3UOmYvbZb+Ol/WfOdu6kP3C0GAJU76M7zI4cfGQv1qeuhIwWVqsMw8hRxmNsyObBKFUFz2MfvxsLwQio/40xjgRhKNCak= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 08:49:20 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" - A Sad Story of Fraud and Delusio In-Reply-To: <272508.99900.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_141475_16688166.1169322560632" References: <272508.99900.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72147 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_141475_16688166.1169322560632 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well as I spent time with Bruce (and Andrew Mount and Paul Clarke) in New Zealand not long before he died and I can tell you that he was as Paul asserts a kind man, no negativity. The last N-Machine test in NZ before his death was not so positive. I believe that the N-Machine will work as a motor (not FE) although I believe that the first machine possibly didn't have a motor force, it was very different with carbon brushes at 90 degrees. The N-Machine's magnetic field DOES rotate with the magnets, the voltage is generated in the external circuit and not on the rotating frame. The funny think is that the N-Machine is very very easy to test, don't test it as a generator, test it as a motor. However this whole discussion is foolishness, you can't get free energy from magnetic interactions. You can't get free energy with electrical arcs. You can't get free energy with electrostatics. Bruce knew how you get free energy, he called it "the primordial field, a sea of energy". Free Energy is not possible with any conventional element known to modern science, it is gained by making a device that harnesses 'The work wheel of nature' which isn't electrical, magnetic, sound (Keely), or nuclear but can influence how such devices work. If you make a device that works with both electrical and or magnetic principles and the work wheel of nature you get results. What we need to better understand is this work wheel of nature. If you look at devices it isn't hard to find one that does something strange besides create free energy, actually it's often harder to find one that doesn't have weird side effects. If you don't recognize the working principle behind a device, it is no wonder if you fail to get results. Look at Tesla's work, no one has replicated it to this day! Why? Because to truly replicate Tesla and get the results he got, a HV transformer connected to the mains will not cut it as the main's don't supply this 'work wheel' of nature (it being depleted way way down the line), but your average DC motor run backwards, or dynamo rectified will. The problem is that a whole branch of physics has been ignored by taking a wrong turn thanks to Einstein (despite the fact that he later said that there IS an aether and thinking otherwise is foolish), that's why conventional science seems right most of the time and the math holds out, all our technology is based on one specific set of ideas and principles, we have that part correct and indeed there is NO Free Energy or Antigravity there, not even detectable by super sensitive instruments. (generally) If you wish to blindly drive ahead you are welcome, but what I'm saying can be solidly proven beyond any doubt. On 1/21/07, Paul wrote: > > Mark Goldes wrote: > > Paul, VO, > > > > DePalma was a very sad case. He was fired by MIT. > He maintained his N > > Machine could never work as a motor but only as a > generator. We hired > > Ken Wasson, an excellent magnetics consultant, to > visit Bruce and he > > pointed out that it could be developed into a motor > with a market large > > enough to support his research. Bruce then called > me and screamed into > > the phone so loudly that I could hold it three feet > away as he ranted > > that this could not be true. > > > > His work was never Over Unity and the early report > suggresting otherwise > > was later retracted by Dr. Kinchloe as erroneous. > > > > An ME friend of mine went to work for DePalma in an > effort to help him > > and worked for subsistance wages. This was after > Bruce emigrated from > > the U.S. My friend concluded he was a fraud and was > bilking investors. > > He left in disgust. > > > > There seem to be endless efforts to find value in > his work ever since > > his death. As far as I am aware, all have come to > naught. > > > > Mark > > > On 2nd thought, I feel the need counter act the > negativity that IMHO incorrectly portrays > Bruce Depalma. Many a times I spent the day with > Bruce Depalma and Andrew Mount in Santa > Barbara. Not once did I ever see any such negative > behavior from either one, and that's > saying something given the fact I am a very blunt > person. I have no idea what was > happening to Bruce during the last years of his life. > Understandably he may have begun to > lose patience, but the Bruce I knew was a gentleman. > A man who treated people with > respect and kindness. A man who loved people. I > remember Andrew Mount told me Bruce > would call his Mother every day to help add a little > something special to her life. He > was a caring person! > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > >> From: Paul > >> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" > >> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:12:35 -0800 (PST) > >> > >> FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > >> > In fact, I can now describe all atomic orbits > >> > > >> > > _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html_ > >> > > (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html) > >> > > >> > > >> > enjoy > >> > > >> > Frank Znidarsic > >> > >> > >> Maybe you're interested in the late Bruce > Depalma's > >> work --> > >> > >> Gyro Drop Experiment: > >> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html > >> > >> Understanding the Dropping of the Spinning Ball > >> Experiment: > >> > http://depalma.pair.com/SpinningBall(Understanding).html > >> > >> Home page: > >> http://depalma.pair.com/ > >> > >> I'm uncertain why Bruce Depalma's work is ignored. > I > >> visited Bruce when he lived in Santa > >> Barbara, CA. From what I know it seems legit. > The > >> common "free energy" N-machine power > >> measurements are simple-- DC in, DC out. I know > Bruce > >> had Electrical Engineer test his > >> machines. One of the earlier published data > clearly > >> shows "free energy." IMHO either this > >> was one of the biggest scams or it's legit. Some > may > >> thing the N-machine appears too > >> simple to generate "free energy," but Bruce's wide > >> range of experiments dealing with > >> gravity & inertia revealed spinning objects change > the > >> surrounds. The falling ball > >> experiments are classical examples --> > >> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html > >> > >> Bruce's N-machines produce appreciably high > angular > >> forces-- over 9000 G's. Perhaps > >> that's a window for "free energy." > >> > >> http://www.rexresearch.com/trombly/trombly.htm > >> > >> http://www.rexresearch.com/tewari/tewari.htm > >> > >> http://www.rexresearch.com/depalma/depalma.htm > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul Lowrance > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 > > ------=_Part_141475_16688166.1169322560632 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well as I spent time with Bruce (and Andrew Mount and Paul Clarke) in New Zealand not long before he died and I can tell you that he was as Paul asserts a kind man, no negativity.

The last N-Machine test in NZ before his death was not so positive.
I believe that the N-Machine will work as a motor (not FE) although I believe that the first machine possibly didn't have a motor force, it was very different with carbon brushes at 90 degrees.

The N-Machine's magnetic field DOES rotate with the magnets, the voltage is generated in the external circuit and not on the rotating frame.

The funny think is that the N-Machine is very very easy to test, don't test it as a generator, test it as a motor.

However this whole discussion is foolishness, you can't get free energy from magnetic interactions.
You can't get free energy with electrical arcs.
You can't get free energy with electrostatics.

Bruce knew how you get free energy, he called it "the primordial field, a sea of energy".
Free Energy is not possible with any conventional element known to modern science, it is gained by making a device that harnesses 'The work wheel of nature' which isn't electrical, magnetic, sound (Keely), or nuclear but can influence how such devices work.

If you make a device that works with both electrical and or magnetic principles and the work wheel of nature you get results.
What we need to better understand is this work wheel of nature.

If you look at devices it isn't hard to find one that does something strange besides create free energy, actually it's often harder to find one that doesn't have weird side effects.

If you don't recognize the working principle behind a device, it is no wonder if you fail to get results.

Look at Tesla's work, no one has replicated it to this day!
Why? Because to truly replicate Tesla and get the results he got, a HV transformer connected to the mains will not cut it as the main's don't supply this 'work wheel' of nature (it being depleted way way down the line), but your average DC motor run backwards, or dynamo rectified will.

The problem is that a whole branch of physics has been ignored by taking a wrong turn thanks to Einstein (despite the fact that he later said that there IS an aether and thinking otherwise is foolish), that's why conventional science seems right most of the time and the math holds out, all our technology is based on one specific set of ideas and principles, we have that part correct and indeed there is NO Free Energy or Antigravity there, not even detectable by super sensitive instruments. (generally)

If you wish to blindly drive ahead you are welcome, but what I'm saying can be solidly proven beyond any doubt.


On 1/21/07, Paul < softwarelabus@yahoo.com> wrote:
Mark Goldes wrote:
> Paul, VO,
>
> DePalma was a very sad case. He was fired by MIT.
He maintained his N
> Machine could never work as a motor but only as a
generator. We hired
> Ken Wasson, an excellent magnetics consultant, to
visit Bruce and he
> pointed out that it could be developed into a motor
with a market large
> enough to support his research. Bruce then called
me and screamed into
> the phone so loudly that I could hold it three feet
away as he ranted
> that this could not be true.
>
> His work was never Over Unity and the early report
suggresting otherwise
> was later retracted by Dr. Kinchloe as erroneous.
>
> An ME friend of mine went to work for DePalma in an
effort to help him
> and worked for subsistance wages. This was after
Bruce emigrated from
> the U.S. My friend concluded he was a fraud and was
bilking investors.
> He left in disgust.
>
> There seem to be endless efforts to find value in
his work ever since
> his death. As far as I am aware, all have come to
naught.
>
> Mark


On 2nd thought, I feel the need counter act the
negativity that IMHO incorrectly portrays
Bruce Depalma.  Many a times I spent the day with
Bruce Depalma and Andrew Mount in Santa
Barbara.  Not once did I ever see any such negative
behavior from either one, and that's
saying something given the fact I am a very blunt
person.  I have no idea what was
happening to Bruce during the last years of his life.
Understandably he may have begun to
lose patience, but the Bruce I knew was a gentleman.
A man who treated people with
respect and kindness.  A man who loved people.  I
remember Andrew Mount told me Bruce
would call his Mother every day to help add a little
something special to her life.  He
was a caring person!


Regards,
Paul Lowrance



>> From: Paul <softwarelabus@yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
>> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy"
>> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:12:35 -0800 (PST)
>>
>> FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote:
>>  > In fact,  I can now describe all atomic orbits
>>  >
>>  >
_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html_
>>  >
(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html)
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > enjoy
>>  >
>>  > Frank Znidarsic
>>
>>
>> Maybe you're interested in the late Bruce
Depalma's
>> work -->
>>
>> Gyro Drop Experiment:
>> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html
>>
>> Understanding the Dropping of the Spinning Ball
>> Experiment:
>>
http://depalma.pair.com/SpinningBall(Understanding).html
>>
>> Home page:
>> http://depalma.pair.com/
>>
>> I'm uncertain why Bruce Depalma's work is ignored.
I
>> visited Bruce when he lived in Santa
>> Barbara, CA.  From what I know it seems legit.
The
>> common "free energy" N-machine power
>> measurements are simple-- DC in, DC out. I know
Bruce
>> had Electrical Engineer test his
>> machines. One of the earlier published data
clearly
>> shows "free energy."  IMHO either this
>> was one of the biggest scams or it's legit. Some
may
>> thing the N-machine appears too
>> simple to generate "free energy," but Bruce's wide
>> range of experiments dealing with
>> gravity & inertia revealed spinning objects change
the
>> surrounds.  The falling ball
>> experiments are classical examples -->
>> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html
>>
>> Bruce's N-machines produce appreciably high
angular
>> forces-- over 9000 G's.  Perhaps
>> that's a window for "free energy."
>>
>> http://www.rexresearch.com/trombly/trombly.htm
>>
>> http://www.rexresearch.com/tewari/tewari.htm
>>
>> http://www.rexresearch.com/depalma/depalma.htm
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Paul Lowrance




____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265


------=_Part_141475_16688166.1169322560632-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 13:13:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KLCxWJ016551; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:13:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KLCvi5016526; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:12:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:12:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=FTjB9rAt2a4U3Lo9+h3SesRlhkAXX3AT6N3R/XAfK38xMOUYVJKFMF1zWqGPIn6gS6ATyj+fVOS8zi31jO3bGC7KO3SFpY1wdoDn18ZZ030DNOuU4mw3PrBNhTv8Eoy7UDVG8Hhhq98DmPHKNAeeUCXG2/4LyYpFuP8tdDJnzXM=; X-YMail-OSG: 5kUa714VM1nim0njsb0ufD7jGCzITiCM7Ei_hpJy Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:12:54 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <315852.98038.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72148 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Well as I spent time with Bruce (and Andrew Mount and Paul Clarke) in New > Zealand not long before he died and I can tell you that he was as Paul > asserts a kind man, no negativity. > > The last N-Machine test in NZ before his death was not so positive. > I believe that the N-Machine will work as a motor (not FE) although I > believe that the first machine possibly didn't have a motor force, it was > very different with carbon brushes at 90 degrees. > > The N-Machine's magnetic field DOES rotate with the magnets, the voltage is > generated in the external circuit and not on the rotating frame. I too theorized the field rotates in N-machine, but have yet to find time to test such a theory. Do you have any proof? > The funny think is that the N-Machine is very very easy to test, don't test > it as a generator, test it as a motor. Red flag #1. Why would you tell people to do that? All the tests I've studied clearly show the N-machine is over unity as a generator and the opposite as a motor. > However this whole discussion is foolishness, you can't get free energy > from magnetic interactions. Red flag #2. I totally disagree! I am not suggesting the N-machine would get "free energy" from magnetic interactions, but may get such energy from an unknown source. Trying studying Bruce's gyro experiments. As far as magnetic interactions, if you spend a few years researching avalanches and what is really happening to magnetic material on the atomic scale you will learn that you can indeed extract "free energy" from ambient temperature. > You can't get free energy with electrical arcs. > You can't get free energy with electrostatics. You place far too many limitations on yourself. :-) At room temperature electrons in all matter on average travel at a few hundreds of the speed of light. That's a lot of energy. > Bruce knew how you get free energy, he called it "the primordial field, a > sea of energy". > Free Energy is not possible with any conventional element known to modern > science, it is gained by making a device that harnesses 'The work wheel of > nature' which isn't electrical, magnetic, sound (Keely), or nuclear but can > influence how such devices work. > > If you make a device that works with both electrical and or magnetic > principles and the work wheel of nature you get results. > What we need to better understand is this work wheel of nature. > > If you look at devices it isn't hard to find one that does something > strange > besides create free energy, actually it's often harder to find one that > doesn't have weird side effects. > > If you don't recognize the working principle behind a device, it is no > wonder if you fail to get results. > > Look at Tesla's work, no one has replicated it to this day! > Why? Because to truly replicate Tesla and get the results he got, a HV > transformer connected to the mains will not cut it as the main's don't > supply this 'work wheel' of nature (it being depleted way way down the > line), but your average DC motor run backwards, or dynamo rectified will. > > The problem is that a whole branch of physics has been ignored by taking a > wrong turn thanks to Einstein (despite the fact that he later said that > there IS an aether and thinking otherwise is foolish) I agree! Their conception of such Aether may have been vague and inaccurate, but it seems overwhelming that such a sea of energy exists. > , that's why conventional science seems right most of the time and the math holds out, > all our technology is based on one specific set of ideas and principles, we > have that part correct and indeed there is NO Free Energy or Antigravity > there, not even detectable by super sensitive instruments. (generally) I'm not sure what are saying there. The universe is steaming with energy. It's surrounds you at all times. Such energy is free for those intelligent enough to extract it. Any voltage meter can measure thermal electrical noise caused by resistance. Get a 1 Meg resistor and use a scope to view the voltage. It's real. Connect an extremely high resistance resistor across a high-speed LED and by means of ultra high-speed photon sensors you can detect periodic photon wave train packets. The light emitted by such LED's comes from the thermal energy caused by resistance. > If you wish to blindly drive ahead you are welcome, but what I'm saying can > be solidly proven beyond any doubt. Red flag #3. I can only go on facts. I welcome your proof when you wish to post it. Regards, Paul Lowrance > On 1/21/07, Paul wrote: >> >> Mark Goldes wrote: >> > Paul, VO, >> > >> > DePalma was a very sad case. He was fired by MIT. >> He maintained his N >> > Machine could never work as a motor but only as a >> generator. We hired >> > Ken Wasson, an excellent magnetics consultant, to >> visit Bruce and he >> > pointed out that it could be developed into a motor >> with a market large >> > enough to support his research. Bruce then called >> me and screamed into >> > the phone so loudly that I could hold it three feet >> away as he ranted >> > that this could not be true. >> > >> > His work was never Over Unity and the early report >> suggresting otherwise >> > was later retracted by Dr. Kinchloe as erroneous. >> > >> > An ME friend of mine went to work for DePalma in an >> effort to help him >> > and worked for subsistance wages. This was after >> Bruce emigrated from >> > the U.S. My friend concluded he was a fraud and was >> bilking investors. >> > He left in disgust. >> > >> > There seem to be endless efforts to find value in >> his work ever since >> > his death. As far as I am aware, all have come to >> naught. >> > >> > Mark >> >> >> On 2nd thought, I feel the need counter act the >> negativity that IMHO incorrectly portrays >> Bruce Depalma. Many a times I spent the day with >> Bruce Depalma and Andrew Mount in Santa >> Barbara. Not once did I ever see any such negative >> behavior from either one, and that's >> saying something given the fact I am a very blunt >> person. I have no idea what was >> happening to Bruce during the last years of his life. >> Understandably he may have begun to >> lose patience, but the Bruce I knew was a gentleman. >> A man who treated people with >> respect and kindness. A man who loved people. I >> remember Andrew Mount told me Bruce >> would call his Mother every day to help add a little >> something special to her life. He >> was a caring person! >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance >> >> >> >> >> From: Paul >> >> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" >> >> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:12:35 -0800 (PST) >> >> >> >> FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: >> >> > In fact, I can now describe all atomic orbits >> >> > >> >> > >> _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html_ >> >> > >> (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html) >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > enjoy >> >> > >> >> > Frank Znidarsic >> >> >> >> >> >> Maybe you're interested in the late Bruce >> Depalma's >> >> work --> >> >> >> >> Gyro Drop Experiment: >> >> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html >> >> >> >> Understanding the Dropping of the Spinning Ball >> >> Experiment: >> >> >> http://depalma.pair.com/SpinningBall(Understanding).html >> >> >> >> Home page: >> >> http://depalma.pair.com/ >> >> >> >> I'm uncertain why Bruce Depalma's work is ignored. >> I >> >> visited Bruce when he lived in Santa >> >> Barbara, CA. From what I know it seems legit. >> The >> >> common "free energy" N-machine power >> >> measurements are simple-- DC in, DC out. I know >> Bruce >> >> had Electrical Engineer test his >> >> machines. One of the earlier published data >> clearly >> >> shows "free energy." IMHO either this >> >> was one of the biggest scams or it's legit. Some >> may >> >> thing the N-machine appears too >> >> simple to generate "free energy," but Bruce's wide >> >> range of experiments dealing with >> >> gravity & inertia revealed spinning objects change >> the >> >> surrounds. The falling ball >> >> experiments are classical examples --> >> >> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html >> >> >> >> Bruce's N-machines produce appreciably high >> angular >> >> forces-- over 9000 G's. Perhaps >> >> that's a window for "free energy." >> >> >> >> http://www.rexresearch.com/trombly/trombly.htm >> >> >> >> http://www.rexresearch.com/tewari/tewari.htm >> >> >> >> http://www.rexresearch.com/depalma/depalma.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 13:25:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KLOpej019739; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:24:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KLOnvI019716; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:24:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:24:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: RE: Steorn Free Energy announces open-source licensing agreement Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:24:43 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <793383.56020.qm@web62414.mail.re1.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <9RnbED.A._zE.giosFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72149 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Paul [mailto:softwarelabus@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 9:32 AM ...Presently I'm in the process of writing such simulation software that will simulate magnetic avalanches, domains, etc. I think Steorn may be interested in your software. Will it be available publicly? They've said they tweaked their model to account for the effect. It's unknown publicly if that was successful. In any case, the circumstantial evidence is that the Steorn motor doesn't use exotic materials except for neodymium-iron-boron magnets. No mumetal or shielding. It seems to just involve unusual spatial (3D) paths among magnets, perhaps including magnet rotations (differing paths between north and south poles). I wonder if it may even include fast rotating members and make use of gyroscopic precession. Hoyt From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 14:14:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KMDxdq010431; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:13:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KMDvUH010414; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:13:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:13:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: <397293.36492.qm@web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & Kincheloe Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:13:54 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jan 2007 22:13:56.0490 (UTC) FILETIME=[47006EA0:01C73CE0] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72150 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul, I visited the good Professor in his home after the retraction. As I recall he even published it. He stated he simply made a mistake. I know few humans who do not do so on occasion, even with simple things. Yesterday, I dropped a vitamin pill into my coffee in error - a first by the way :). Thugs were not involved in either episode. Mark >From: Paul >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" - A Sad Story of Fraud and >Delusion >Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:40:24 -0800 (PST) > >Mark Goldes wrote: > > Paul, VO, > > > > DePalma was a very sad case. He was fired by MIT. >He maintained his N > > Machine could never work as a motor but only as a >generator. We hired > > Ken Wasson, an excellent magnetics consultant, to >visit Bruce and he > > pointed out that it could be developed into a motor >with a market large > > enough to support his research. Bruce then called >me and screamed into > > the phone so loudly that I could hold it three feet >away as he ranted > > that this could not be true. > > > > His work was never Over Unity and the early report >suggresting otherwise > > was later retracted by Dr. Kinchloe as erroneous. > > > > An ME friend of mine went to work for DePalma in an >effort to help him > > and worked for subsistance wages. This was after >Bruce emigrated from > > the U.S. My friend concluded he was a fraud and was >bilking investors. > > He left in disgust. > > > > There seem to be endless efforts to find value in >his work ever since > > his death. As far as I am aware, all have come to >naught. > > > > Mark > > > >Mark, > >Really I'm not here to discuss Bruce's personal life >and idiosyncrasies. His personal >problems have *ZERO* effect on my analysis of his >work. Have some simple questions for >you --> > >1. Can you show us any proof that Dr. Kincheloe >retracted his claims. > >2. Can you show us the details exactly how Dr. >Kincheloe, ***a Professor of Electrical >Engineering***, could make a mistake in measuring DC >voltage and current? LOL > >3. Can you presiley show us any mistakes found in the >gyro drop experiments as performed >by Performed by Kenneth Gerber, M.D., Richard F. >Merritt, and analysis by Edward Delvers >--> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html > > >In reference to #2, I cannot see how a Professor of >Electrical Engineering could make such >simple mistakes, and therefore it seems more likely >thugs threatened Dr. Kincheloe and his >family. > > > >Paul Lowrance > > > > > >> From: Paul > >> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" > >> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:12:35 -0800 (PST) > >> > >> FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: > >> > In fact, I can now describe all atomic orbits > >> > > >> > >_http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html_ > >> > >(http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html) > >> > > >> > > >> > enjoy > >> > > >> > Frank Znidarsic > >> > >> > >> Maybe you're interested in the late Bruce >Depalma's > >> work --> > >> > >> Gyro Drop Experiment: > >> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html > >> > >> Understanding the Dropping of the Spinning Ball > >> Experiment: > >> >http://depalma.pair.com/SpinningBall(Understanding).html > >> > >> Home page: > >> http://depalma.pair.com/ > >> > >> I'm uncertain why Bruce Depalma's work is ignored. >I > >> visited Bruce when he lived in Santa > >> Barbara, CA. From what I know it seems legit. >The > >> common "free energy" N-machine power > >> measurements are simple-- DC in, DC out. I know >Bruce > >> had Electrical Engineer test his > >> machines. One of the earlier published data >clearly > >> shows "free energy." IMHO either this > >> was one of the biggest scams or it's legit. Some >may > >> thing the N-machine appears too > >> simple to generate "free energy," but Bruce's wide > >> range of experiments dealing with > >> gravity & inertia revealed spinning objects change >the > >> surrounds. The falling ball > >> experiments are classical examples --> > >> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html > >> > >> Bruce's N-machines produce appreciably high >angular > >> forces-- over 9000 G's. Perhaps > >> that's a window for "free energy." > >> > >> http://www.rexresearch.com/trombly/trombly.htm > >> > >> http://www.rexresearch.com/tewari/tewari.htm > >> > >> http://www.rexresearch.com/depalma/depalma.htm > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul Lowrance > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. >Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. >http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 14:53:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KMr5l1024308; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:53:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KMr4wg024290; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:53:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:53:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=s4NVXnMu+qghxd6bbm5iGmGYhcTqu8jrKBkjLINkejVYRkOKh0gO1NCrjcqHM1uEBc6CfEDjEHWSIPE/0vq6XLvbBiAZ15nFJH1yfgsuFCEBlVjPGvVGGPy1+nPlL9JUZY2eCQotsxr2eb6u80IAPZybLMVJZoKHRDeeeAbYl2M= ; X-YMail-OSG: q0bzATEVM1m_5p2zbAEvdieVsQE.MNXWCdZbSmKTydynmk7pem4IfRh8BneOftA7NQ-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20070120174817.01f7d468@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 17:51:25 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: <45B23A48.3040705@pacbell.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> <001c01c73c1d$fc5fe690$849b163f@DFBGQZ91> <6.1.1.1.1.20070119222930.01effa20@pop> <45B23A48.3040705@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72151 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Then why are the chattering classes always talking about corn as the input vs cellulose? Oh - and by the way, apparently the Ottawa company - experts in this area of biotechnology - was the pioneer in producing and using this enzyme effectively. That's what I'm told... and I believe everything I'm told. P. At 07:50 AM 1/20/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Philip Winestone wrote: > >>Nobody seems to have taken notice of this process, which was pioneered by >>a company in Ottawa. > > >Well - not exactly ! Our (USA) DOE/NREL has poured lots of its precious >(underfunded) resources into this exact area : > >http://www.ethanol-gec.org/information/briefing/2.pdf From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 15:00:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KN0VZd026912; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:00:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KN0U0E026903; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:00:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:00:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=dRWtL7K2RUH9dGPwaM4tBDVC1t+uPUCzMN05oDAijSJJ8PbbvVbYEDd+O1vDZnAiEUUZ3+8N6AdqFMCRhP34vs8eT2JoLMMuQByoHE56DlxAMWFjjvIB+aMBKKP+726ppGauVF3K10hZacOG7pcthD2MEA2DYXepc7eK0uqz82Q= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:00:27 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy In-Reply-To: <315852.98038.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_142375_27103411.1169334027936" References: <315852.98038.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72152 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_142375_27103411.1169334027936 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 1/21/07, Paul wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > Well as I spent time with Bruce (and Andrew Mount > and Paul Clarke) in New > > Zealand not long before he died and I can tell you > that he was as Paul > > asserts a kind man, no negativity. > > > > The last N-Machine test in NZ before his death was > not so positive. > > I believe that the N-Machine will work as a motor > (not FE) although I > > believe that the first machine possibly didn't have > a motor force, it was > > very different with carbon brushes at 90 degrees. > > > > The N-Machine's magnetic field DOES rotate with the > magnets, the voltage is > > generated in the external circuit and not on the > rotating frame. > > I too theorized the field rotates in N-machine, but > have yet to find time to test such a > theory. Do you have any proof? You could argue that Hooper proved it with his motional electric field. But the only proof I have there is logic, obviously the magnetic field must rotate with the magnet (magnets don't even have a perfect field all around). The only reason to think that it might not rotate is the fact than an N-Machine generates a voltage, but that is erroneous because if the magnetic field rotates then a voltage is induced in the external circuit. > The funny think is that the N-Machine is very very > easy to test, don't test > > it as a generator, test it as a motor. > > Red flag #1. Why would you tell people to do that? > All the tests I've studied clearly > show the N-machine is over unity as a generator and > the opposite as a motor. Because if it is a bad (or non-existant) motor then it must be a good generator. Another thing would be to test the force placed on the brushes (after carefully separating the frictional forces). If the force on the brushes does not match the force placed on the dick then you have a unidirectional motion generator which is unlikely to be the case. > However this whole discussion is foolishness, you > can't get free energy > > from magnetic interactions. > > Red flag #2. I totally disagree! I am not suggesting > the N-machine would get "free > energy" from magnetic interactions, but may get such > energy from an unknown source. Trying > studying Bruce's gyro experiments. I agree of course based on things I say later... As far as magnetic interactions, if you spend a few > years researching avalanches and what > is really happening to magnetic material on the atomic > scale you will learn that you can > indeed extract "free energy" from ambient temperature. Sure. > You can't get free energy with electrical arcs. > > You can't get free energy with electrostatics. > > You place far too many limitations on yourself. :-) > At room temperature electrons in all > matter on average travel at a few hundreds of the > speed of light. That's a lot of energy. > > > > > Bruce knew how you get free energy, he called it > "the primordial field, a > > sea of energy". > > Free Energy is not possible with any conventional > element known to modern > > science, it is gained by making a device that > harnesses 'The work wheel of > > nature' which isn't electrical, magnetic, sound > (Keely), or nuclear but can > > influence how such devices work. > > > > If you make a device that works with both > electrical and or magnetic > > principles and the work wheel of nature you get > results. > > What we need to better understand is this work > wheel of nature. > > > > If you look at devices it isn't hard to find one > that does something > > strange > > besides create free energy, actually it's often > harder to find one that > > doesn't have weird side effects. > > > > If you don't recognize the working principle behind > a device, it is no > > wonder if you fail to get results. > > > > Look at Tesla's work, no one has replicated it to > this day! > > Why? Because to truly replicate Tesla and get the > results he got, a HV > > transformer connected to the mains will not cut it > as the main's don't > > supply this 'work wheel' of nature (it being > depleted way way down the > > line), but your average DC motor run backwards, or > dynamo rectified will. > > > > The problem is that a whole branch of physics has > been ignored by taking a > > wrong turn thanks to Einstein (despite the fact > that he later said that > > there IS an aether and thinking otherwise is > foolish) > > I agree! Their conception of such Aether may have > been vague and inaccurate, but it seems > overwhelming that such a sea of energy exists. I have spect the last 10 years studying devices to get ever closer to see what if they do so much so different are they all doing which is the same. The answers I have found have answered not only FE and AG devices, but other unrelated natural phenomena and totally different subjects, as soon as a new piece falls into place suddenly a whole bunch of things start to make sense. > , that's why conventional science seems right most > of the time and the math holds out, > > all our technology is based on one specific set of > ideas and principles, we > > have that part correct and indeed there is NO Free > Energy or Antigravity > > there, not even detectable by super sensitive > instruments. (generally) > > I'm not sure what are saying there. The universe is > steaming with energy. It's surrounds > you at all times. Such energy is free for those > intelligent enough to extract it. Yes, all I'm saying is that normal ways of doing things just don't tap it. I'm trying to agree with the claims that magnetic devices can't generate FE while explaining what can when working with a magnetic device. Any > voltage meter can measure thermal electrical noise > caused by resistance. Get a 1 Meg > resistor and use a scope to view the voltage. It's > real. No doubt, but that's small stuff. Connect an extremely high > resistance resistor across a high-speed LED and by > means of ultra high-speed photon > sensors you can detect periodic photon wave train > packets. The light emitted by such > LED's comes from the thermal energy caused by > resistance. Yes, naturally there are small and I mean small amounts of energy that can be tapped by conventional means, but this stuff isn't even flea powered. Now maybe you could get a trillion diodes and get usable energy but that's not the road I want to go down, plus I'm not interested in extracting energy from heat no matter how easily it can be done. > If you wish to blindly drive ahead you are welcome, > but what I'm saying can > > be solidly proven beyond any doubt. > > Red flag #3. I can only go on facts. I welcome your > proof when you wish to post it. Ok, let's start this simply, I'll send another post with a few questions in it. ------=_Part_142375_27103411.1169334027936 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 1/21/07, Paul <softwarelabus@yahoo.com> wrote:
John Berry wrote:
> Well as I spent time with Bruce (and Andrew Mount
and Paul Clarke) in New
> Zealand not long before he died and I can tell you
that he was as Paul
> asserts a kind man, no negativity.
>
> The last N-Machine test in NZ before his death was
not so positive.
> I believe that the N-Machine will work as a motor
(not FE) although I
> believe that the first machine possibly didn't have
a motor force, it was
> very different with carbon brushes at 90 degrees.
>
> The N-Machine's magnetic field DOES rotate with the
magnets, the voltage is
> generated in the external circuit and not on the
rotating frame.

I too theorized the field rotates in N-machine, but
have yet to find time to test such a
theory.  Do you have any proof?

You could argue that Hooper proved it with his motional electric field.
But the only proof I have there is logic, obviously the magnetic field must rotate with the magnet (magnets don't even have a perfect field all around).

The only reason to think that it might not rotate is the fact than an N-Machine generates a voltage, but that is erroneous because if the magnetic field rotates then a voltage is induced in the external circuit.

> The funny think is that the N-Machine is very very
easy to test, don't test
> it as a generator, test it as a motor.

Red flag #1. Why would you tell people to do that?
All the tests I've studied clearly
show the N-machine is over unity as a generator and
the opposite as a motor.

Because if it is a bad (or non-existant) motor then it must be a good generator.

Another thing would be to test the force placed on the brushes (after carefully separating the frictional forces).
If the force on the brushes does not match the force placed on the dick then you have a unidirectional motion generator which is unlikely to be the case.

> However this whole discussion is foolishness, you
can't get free energy
> from magnetic interactions.

Red flag #2. I totally disagree!  I am not suggesting
the N-machine would get "free
energy" from magnetic interactions, but may get such
energy from an unknown source. Trying
studying Bruce's gyro experiments.

I agree of course based on things I say later...

As far as magnetic interactions, if you spend a few
years researching avalanches and what
is really happening to magnetic material on the atomic
scale you will learn that you can
indeed extract "free energy" from ambient temperature.

Sure.

> You can't get free energy with electrical arcs.
> You can't get free energy with electrostatics.

You place far too many limitations on yourself. :-)
At room temperature electrons in all
matter on average travel at a few hundreds of the
speed of light.  That's a lot of energy.



> Bruce knew how you get free energy, he called it
"the primordial field, a
> sea of energy".
> Free Energy is not possible with any conventional
element known to modern
> science, it is gained by making a device that
harnesses 'The work wheel of
> nature' which isn't electrical, magnetic, sound
(Keely), or nuclear but can
> influence how such devices work.
>
> If you make a device that works with both
electrical and or magnetic
> principles and the work wheel of nature you get
results.
> What we need to better understand is this work
wheel of nature.
>
> If you look at devices it isn't hard to find one
that does something
> strange
> besides create free energy, actually it's often
harder to find one that
> doesn't have weird side effects.
>
> If you don't recognize the working principle behind
a device, it is no
> wonder if you fail to get results.
>
> Look at Tesla's work, no one has replicated it to
this day!
> Why? Because to truly replicate Tesla and get the
results he got, a HV
> transformer connected to the mains will not cut it
as the main's don't
> supply this 'work wheel' of nature (it being
depleted way way down the
> line), but your average DC motor run backwards, or
dynamo rectified will.
>
> The problem is that a whole branch of physics has
been ignored by taking a
> wrong turn thanks to Einstein (despite the fact
that he later said that
> there IS an aether and thinking otherwise is
foolish)

I agree!  Their conception of such Aether may have
been vague and inaccurate, but it seems
overwhelming that such a sea of energy exists.

I have spect the last 10 years studying devices to get ever closer to see what if they do so much so different are they all doing which is the same.
The answers I have found have answered not only FE and AG devices, but other unrelated natural phenomena and totally different subjects, as soon as a new piece falls into place suddenly a whole bunch of things start to make sense.

> , that's why conventional science seems right most
of the time and the math holds out,
> all our technology is based on one specific set of
ideas and principles, we
> have that part correct and indeed there is NO Free
Energy or Antigravity
> there, not even detectable by super sensitive
instruments. (generally)

I'm not sure what are saying there.  The universe is
steaming with energy.  It's surrounds
you at all times.  Such energy is free for those
intelligent enough to extract it.

Yes, all I'm saying is that normal ways of doing things just don't tap it.
I'm trying to agree with the claims that magnetic devices can't generate FE while explaining what can when working with a magnetic device.

  Any
voltage meter can measure thermal electrical noise
caused by resistance.  Get a 1 Meg
resistor and use a scope to view the voltage.  It's
real.

No doubt, but that's small stuff.

  Connect an extremely high
resistance resistor across a high-speed LED and by
means of ultra high-speed photon
sensors you can detect periodic photon wave train
packets.  The light emitted by such
LED's comes from the thermal energy caused by
resistance.

Yes, naturally there are small and I mean small amounts of energy that can be tapped by conventional means, but this stuff isn't even flea powered.
Now maybe you could get a trillion diodes and get usable energy but that's not the road I want to go down, plus I'm not interested in extracting energy from heat no matter how easily it can be done.

> If you wish to blindly drive ahead you are welcome,
but what I'm saying can
> be solidly proven beyond any doubt.

Red flag #3. I can only go on facts. I welcome your
proof when you wish to post it.

 Ok, let's start this simply, I'll send another post with a few questions in it.

------=_Part_142375_27103411.1169334027936-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 15:01:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KN1lrF027374; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:01:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KN1knM027357; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:01:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:01:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=gs3XVDDtt1hvqC/G25IBi74anGzjixorS//H5NNFYM23fJdCypQgiAWJUECU5xqeCUloA/sspOe1HXZWAKMOeW1b7Sg9CcNuVFRTyzLsxYh5XCPZMM8FKIFnUPwgoRocyJSq7xe9rfSaITH0a9kZjqWRGSMEB3jDNkNvk/uq6iA=; X-YMail-OSG: I_XuBBwVM1mUWt3euePoNH0i0gFvALo1neR7ulhk Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:01:44 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & Kincheloe To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <713060.65484.qm@web62406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72153 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: > Paul, > > I visited the good Professor in his home after the retraction. As I > recall he even published it. > > He stated he simply made a mistake. I know few humans who do not do so > on occasion, even with simple things. Yesterday, I dropped a vitamin > pill into my coffee in error - a first by the way :). > > Thugs were not involved in either episode. > > Mark I think a EE takes such a task a little more serious than ones coffee and vitamins. No offense intended, but people's lives and family have been threatened for a whole lot less. Others such as Tewari successfully replicated his machine. Then there's the gyro experiments. Sorry, but it does not add up. I smell a rat. It's these kind of situations that get people such as myself involved. Now I have a motive to replicate the N-machine, which I'll now add to my list. :-) If you have the Professors email address then perhaps you could forward it? Regards, Paul >> From: Paul >> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" - A Sad Story of >> Fraud and Delusion >> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:40:24 -0800 (PST) >> >> Mark Goldes wrote: >> > Paul, VO, >> > >> > DePalma was a very sad case. He was fired by MIT. >> He maintained his N >> > Machine could never work as a motor but only as a >> generator. We hired >> > Ken Wasson, an excellent magnetics consultant, to >> visit Bruce and he >> > pointed out that it could be developed into a motor >> with a market large >> > enough to support his research. Bruce then called >> me and screamed into >> > the phone so loudly that I could hold it three feet >> away as he ranted >> > that this could not be true. >> > >> > His work was never Over Unity and the early report >> suggresting otherwise >> > was later retracted by Dr. Kinchloe as erroneous. >> > >> > An ME friend of mine went to work for DePalma in an >> effort to help him >> > and worked for subsistance wages. This was after >> Bruce emigrated from >> > the U.S. My friend concluded he was a fraud and was >> bilking investors. >> > He left in disgust. >> > >> > There seem to be endless efforts to find value in >> his work ever since >> > his death. As far as I am aware, all have come to >> naught. >> > >> > Mark >> >> >> >> Mark, >> >> Really I'm not here to discuss Bruce's personal life >> and idiosyncrasies. His personal >> problems have *ZERO* effect on my analysis of his >> work. Have some simple questions for >> you --> >> >> 1. Can you show us any proof that Dr. Kincheloe >> retracted his claims. >> >> 2. Can you show us the details exactly how Dr. >> Kincheloe, ***a Professor of Electrical >> Engineering***, could make a mistake in measuring DC >> voltage and current? LOL >> >> 3. Can you presiley show us any mistakes found in the >> gyro drop experiments as performed >> by Performed by Kenneth Gerber, M.D., Richard F. >> Merritt, and analysis by Edward Delvers >> --> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html >> >> >> In reference to #2, I cannot see how a Professor of >> Electrical Engineering could make such >> simple mistakes, and therefore it seems more likely >> thugs threatened Dr. Kincheloe and his >> family. >> >> >> >> Paul Lowrance >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Paul >> >> Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" >> >> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:12:35 -0800 (PST) >> >> >> >> FZNIDARSIC@aol.com wrote: >> >> > In fact, I can now describe all atomic orbits >> >> > >> >> > >> _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html_ >> >> > >> (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapterb.html) >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > enjoy >> >> > >> >> > Frank Znidarsic >> >> >> >> >> >> Maybe you're interested in the late Bruce >> Depalma's >> >> work --> >> >> >> >> Gyro Drop Experiment: >> >> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html >> >> >> >> Understanding the Dropping of the Spinning Ball >> >> Experiment: >> >> >> http://depalma.pair.com/SpinningBall(Understanding).html >> >> >> >> Home page: >> >> http://depalma.pair.com/ >> >> >> >> I'm uncertain why Bruce Depalma's work is ignored. >> I >> >> visited Bruce when he lived in Santa >> >> Barbara, CA. From what I know it seems legit. >> The >> >> common "free energy" N-machine power >> >> measurements are simple-- DC in, DC out. I know >> Bruce >> >> had Electrical Engineer test his >> >> machines. One of the earlier published data >> clearly >> >> shows "free energy." IMHO either this >> >> was one of the biggest scams or it's legit. Some >> may >> >> thing the N-machine appears too >> >> simple to generate "free energy," but Bruce's wide >> >> range of experiments dealing with >> >> gravity & inertia revealed spinning objects change >> the >> >> surrounds. The falling ball >> >> experiments are classical examples --> >> >> http://depalma.pair.com/gyrodrop.html >> >> >> >> Bruce's N-machines produce appreciably high >> angular >> >> forces-- over 9000 G's. Perhaps >> >> that's a window for "free energy." >> >> >> >> http://www.rexresearch.com/trombly/trombly.htm >> >> >> >> http://www.rexresearch.com/tewari/tewari.htm >> >> >> >> http://www.rexresearch.com/depalma/depalma.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 15:25:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KNPMjH014543; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:25:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KNPKoG014530; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:25:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:25:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=cdlwMqGsUzuOHq74ZTKSZBp9DjzXLDxr91Tvo6+tYAD98PHG/0aWRsdfos8mSBHRJ8+a/xTymP5Sr024Ng5wTf8/aweCt+GiMExLuIZoDXCAlPWlbdTrKZFhc9aIgoSg5xv73FwRJdy2qmKaP2wtvkGb1NXa4n6i6d0naGdoDt8= ; Message-ID: <20070120232519.90878.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:25:19 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-581794152-1169335519=:89159" Resent-Message-ID: <3GaS0C.A.yiD.gTqsFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72154 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union Status: O X-Status: --0-581794152-1169335519=:89159 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Philip Winestone =0A=0A> Then why are t= he chattering classes always talking about corn as the input =0Avs cellulos= e?=0A=0AHmm ... "inertia" can be both a debilitating force and a usable inp= ut =0A=0AAnd in this case, the problem of ignorance may emanate from an = Oval office.=0A=0A> Oh - and by the way, apparently the Ottawa company - ex= perts in this area =0Aof biotechnology - was the pioneer in producing and u= sing this enzyme =0Aeffectively. That's what I'm told... and I believe eve= rything I'm told.=0A=0AWell enlighten us ! Can you name the company and the= enzyme, please.=0A=0AJones=0A=0AApologies if you already did so, as I do n= ot receive all vortex messages for some unknown reason, =0Awhich probably r= elates to the MIB =0A=0A...including all messages from certain posters = including our moderator Bill B hisself =0Aand also from Michel Julian (100%= missing) and a few other overseas posters. I must go to the archives every= other day or so to have a look for gaps.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-581794152-1169335519=:89159 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
----- Original Message ----
From: Philip W= inestone

> Then why are the chattering classes always talki= ng about corn as the input
vs cellulose?

Hmm ... "inertia" can b= e both a debilitating force and a usable input <g>

And in this= case, the problem of ignorance may emanate from an Oval office.

>= ; Oh - and by the way, apparently the Ottawa company - experts in this area=
of biotechnology - was the pioneer in producing and using this enzyme =
effectively.  That's what I'm told... and I believe everythin= g I'm told.

Well enlighten us ! Can you name the company and the enz= yme, please.

Jones

Apologies if you already did so, as I do not r= eceive all vortex messages for some unknown reason,
which probably rela= tes to the MIB <g>

...including all messages from certain pos= ters including our moderator Bill B hisself
and also from Michel Julian= (100% missing) and a few other overseas posters. I must go to the archives= every other day or so to have a look for gaps.

--0-581794152-1169335519=:89159-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 15:37:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0KNath8018489; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:36:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0KNaseH018471; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:36:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:36:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=lQZDJeZDsRX+IcgXjZGKdrE1nMXSzgWige0NIlEiQ72ZWKkX4YxGK951ngVxrbZQLjnwiYqbZ00BW3TdqupXJ0Ag9n6fI3IKvLazJXEOJwNruEaQKdhrWPuRN1V+drGcMzG28Q2ZIGtR+Ba/TTwBYG4zKxww2LNIbQKgrV5V0ps=; X-YMail-OSG: LWL_z.AVM1n1.7tjHnbYkCSxiwePM1SnJ_DLcMwb Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:36:49 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <900332.49170.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72155 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > On 1/21/07, Paul wrote: >> >> John Berry wrote: >> > Well as I spent time with Bruce (and Andrew Mount >> and Paul Clarke) in New >> > Zealand not long before he died and I can tell you >> that he was as Paul >> > asserts a kind man, no negativity. >> > >> > The last N-Machine test in NZ before his death was >> not so positive. >> > I believe that the N-Machine will work as a motor >> (not FE) although I >> > believe that the first machine possibly didn't have >> a motor force, it was >> > very different with carbon brushes at 90 degrees. >> > >> > The N-Machine's magnetic field DOES rotate with the >> magnets, the voltage is >> > generated in the external circuit and not on the >> rotating frame. >> >> I too theorized the field rotates in N-machine, but >> have yet to find time to test such a >> theory. Do you have any proof? > > > You could argue that Hooper proved it with his motional electric field. > But the only proof I have there is logic, obviously the magnetic field must > rotate with the magnet (magnets don't even have a perfect field all > around). It would become logic when we fully understand what truly causes magnetic fields. We're not there yet. > The only reason to think that it might not rotate is the fact than an > N-Machine generates a voltage, but that is erroneous because if the > magnetic > field rotates then a voltage is induced in the external circuit. Erroneous? It could make all the difference to a physics theory. >> The funny think is that the N-Machine is very very >> easy to test Shhh, don't tell that to Dr. Kincheloe, ***a Professor of Electrical Engineering!*** It's really difficult to read a DC voltage meter and multiply it by the DC current. ;-) >> , don't test it as a generator, test it as a motor. >> >> Red flag #1. Why would you tell people to do that? >> All the tests I've studied clearly >> show the N-machine is over unity as a generator and >> the opposite as a motor. > > > Because if it is a bad (or non-existant) motor then it must be a good > generator. Exactly. So why would we want to test a bad motor when the N-machine is a good generator. It's the generator aspect we're interested in. [snip] > Connect an extremely high >> resistance resistor across a high-speed LED and by >> means of ultra high-speed photon >> sensors you can detect periodic photon wave train >> packets. The light emitted by such >> LED's comes from the thermal energy caused by >> resistance. > > > Yes, naturally there are small and I mean small amounts of energy that can > be tapped by conventional means, but this stuff isn't even flea powered. > Now maybe you could get a trillion diodes and get usable energy but that's > not the road I want to go down, Indeed, such diodes could easily be a few hundred nanometers. It adds up when you have trillions of such nano devices. >plus I'm not interested in extracting > energy from heat no matter how easily it can be done. As for me, I wish it were all about personal *interests*. How great it would be to work on whooptie do da futuristic Tesla technology and the like. :-) Unfortunately, we have a planet that's going ape and a society that's getting ready to commit hara-kiri. Energy from ambient temperature is the most realistic, well define, and safest path, not to mention it's based on old physics. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 19:02:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0L32n2v018096; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 19:02:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0L32lrM018082; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 19:02:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 19:02:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=bfBOufCijaXY5bPy/STtSrxLKjYM8g9a41+8ZDR9gz46SNYgB382tBpV9reGk4rp2NeyuFmcvfIbqWzi8+FxpvGEuZaO19bEI9eUgt3yBDOO2f+NTo5k31BBeLwJ37nxkeIPPV6vgu2p1PW4dNDIBtbGLoM0YrUngVrcYN/iIsI= ; Message-ID: <20070121030247.43699.qmail@web82712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 19:02:47 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1783483959-1169348567=:14652" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72156 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Not just for tree-huggers any more? Status: O X-Status: --0-1783483959-1169348567=:14652 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not that there's anything wrong with tree-huggers... but=0A=0AThis is the k= ind of story that leaves you wondering "who's on first" ?=0A=0Ahttp://www.t= reehugger.com/files/2007/01/biofuel_for_air_1.php=0A=0A=0ANASA apparently r= ecruits smart folks, right? The $64 question is: =0AWhy would they imagine= that this is limited to, or even more appropriate, for aircraft? =0A=0A --0-1783483959-1169348567=:14652 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not that there's anything wrong with tree-huggers... bu= t

This is the kind of story that leaves you wondering "who's on firs= t" ?

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/01/= biofuel_for_air_1.php


NASA apparently recruits smart = folks, right? The $64 question is: 
Why would they imagine that th= is is limited to, or even more appropriate, for aircraft?
<= /body> --0-1783483959-1169348567=:14652-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 20:08:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0L48ZMq011311; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 20:08:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0L48XSY011298; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 20:08:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 20:08:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001401c73d11$d0ed9d00$87027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 22:08:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C73CDF.84D391E0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <9Euau.A.awC.BdusFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72157 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Not just for tree-huggers any more? Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C73CDF.84D391E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C73CDF.84D6C630" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C73CDF.84D6C630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankJones wrote.. NASA apparently recruits smart folks, right? The $64 question is: =20 Why would they imagine that this is limited to, or even more = appropriate, for aircraft?=20 Howdy Jones, Halophyte production is beginning to make sense. Combined with = developments in extremely fast growth algea production, we may have a = serious source of raw materials for bio-fuels. Well... err.. maybe if = NASA don't take over. There is some serious private capital plus money coming from the State = of Texas for push behind algea and Halophyte production plus a number of = small startup diesel biofuel plants. One of the concerns along the = Texas coast is the huge fresh water acquifers are being pumped at a rate = that salt water intrusion is beginning migrate underground from the = shoreline. A salt loving crop would help.=20 Jose' Cuervo bio-diesel... get more stroke outa ya piston. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C73CDF.84D6C630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Jones wrote..


NASA apparently recruits smart folks, right? The $64 question = is: =20
Why would they imagine that this is limited to, or even more = appropriate,=20 for aircraft?

Howdy Jones,

Halophyte production is beginning to make sense. Combined=20 with developments in extremely fast  growth algea = production, we=20 may have a serious source of raw materials for bio-fuels.  = Well...=20 err.. maybe if NASA don't take over.

 There is some serious private capital plus money coming = from=20 the State of Texas for push behind algea and Halophyte production=20 plus a number of small startup diesel biofuel  plants. One of = the=20 concerns along the Texas coast is the huge fresh water acquifers are = being=20 pumped at a rate that salt water intrusion is beginning migrate = underground from=20 the shoreline. A salt loving crop would help.

Jose' Cuervo bio-diesel... get more stroke outa ya piston.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C73CDF.84D6C630-- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C73CDF.84D391E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000f01c73d11$cf358cc0$87027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C73CDF.84D391E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 21:02:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0L52Imt022235; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:02:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0L52F03022207; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:02:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:02:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=L9fkmxUXxX59sTdAragHaBK+1Auez6YkNu+PFCzencYSpJAo0C6x/Ci22PPIxFaeCKcIz4WoVoycQqxyXPop+XZEu6VnMEiTM8qb6PpDBRaVSF5abqIp4CKDNqnut6fA5h+e5AogvZCopFdMcVWJ0WETduoCD9mlS7QnCSjpmF0= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 00:02:14 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy" - A Sad Story of Fraud and Delusio In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <272508.99900.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72158 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/20/07, John Berry wrote: > However this whole discussion is foolishness, you can't get free energy from > magnetic interactions. I would ask you to prove your assertion; however, we all know it is impossible to prove a negative. Is it possible to get energy by direct conversion of mass? Would you have thought so had you lived before the "One Stone"? Personally, I think magnetic gradients from permanent magnets are a new steam engine. But then, I'm a crackpot. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 20 21:14:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0L5E1kD000781; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:14:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0L5Dthx000744; Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:13:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:13:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bb40XMHdlltAWbNJkto9Tbch/pTp8pva1ufg/2JZruue8Ufos54YbyGOvNpT9oGFWcEVSlodmq9qCwjp+NpJAKfnvSuZUZSb6+ERtEmCk7Bv3qDegPQacEMm9vyFfpSMmAVJUmPi9QkA0NL5/6ouhf7B3bv100iL2plMincbAmc= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 00:13:53 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: <20070120232519.90878.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20070120232519.90878.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72159 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/20/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Apologies if you already did so, as I do not receive all vortex messages for > some unknown reason, > which probably relates to the MIB And we thought you were merely ignoring us. :-) If the MIBs were after you, you would already be gone. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 02:51:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0LAouhv027533; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 02:50:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0LAotV6027526; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 02:50:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 02:50:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAACbUskXLrQI1UGdsb2JhbAANjUwBASo X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,217,1167580800"; d="scan'208"; a="87355282:sNHT14989662" Message-ID: <45B34589.5060804@iinet.net.au> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 21:50:49 +1100 From: Wesley Bruce User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question References: <45ACE881.5030503@pobox.com> <5t3tq2du95d9qlaij4qdmch6uiubamca9j@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <5t3tq2du95d9qlaij4qdmch6uiubamca9j@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72160 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:00:17 -0500: >Hi, >[snip] > > >>Because it doesn't. It's a magnetic motor -- permanent-magnet-based >>engine -- and there's no mechanism for it to "steal heat" from the >>environment, nor any evidence whatsoever that it does so. >> >>It's type-1 perpetual motion: violation of the first law, which is >>conservation of energy. If the Steorn motor works, then a Steorn motor >>operating in a closed environment will warm up that environment. >> >> > >If it works at all, then I'd be more inclined to believe that it is deriving >energy from an unexpected source, rather than creating it. > >One off-beat possibility is a time distortion field. I wonder if clocks in the >surroundings run at a different speed? :) > > Time or inertia distortions are a distinct possibility if zero point energy is being tapped and Haisch, Rueda and Puttoff are right that ZPE is the energy behind inertia, gravity and thus all potential energy. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_electrodynamics >[snip] >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 03:45:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0LBjoha029566; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 03:45:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0LBjmdJ029534; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 03:45:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 03:45:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=vvDN83V9+3hm4r2jcu8rAL/IIA764SxXm7m6vaLOuP7oyVvvrXC/ViPv6txt58cpMvGm2GnlUpBvdCyytGiERH1Wrgtn9BpXLRYd0egsnv4dTgVYxvTfmwu4Cwao5CnGa5sL1vmVwJteYj8L9mbZt4qcQLU7CljpWjwURsNS498= ; X-YMail-OSG: jqkuv3oVM1lCBPcIMf3yCfy3ostFzIjPGXOOvC9oxyOZRWbOgzT1_pb87dP9sZl6rQ-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20070121063912.00ba7d38@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 06:43:48 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: <20070120232519.90878.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20070120232519.90878.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72161 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Well enlighten us ! Can you name the company and the enzyme, please. The company in Ottawa is Iogen (that's an "I" not an "L"), but I'm afraid I didn't go so far as to find out the name of the enzyme; I've been remiss. (And we too have our major sources of inertia... We call it collectively, "the government.") Philip. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 04:08:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0LC8ATG008366; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 04:08:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0LC89S2008348; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 04:08:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 04:08:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=nZJSWT2wfm+ugiCA/SI81F0UtYLF8CK3ljBjRwkoNyywAPEQJ9smwArSuaKaM90fWPoDeEH50dXSM+4uroX/Vq2W2iS+48sGMfiwC0CxNctD2lpfqBrX+hmf4nzGypO/OvA4ifcrrlq4mkwWRyr1S1M/6TBCY8wRJAutM6kygoA= ; X-YMail-OSG: RmvwL68VM1m4qNVxmOVx6QQYIus108oQnEIdVNPEuifqxE_ped4Gag9ZXs1RcEISPA-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20070121065528.01faa2b0@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 07:06:02 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: Steorn question In-Reply-To: <45B34589.5060804@iinet.net.au> References: <45ACE881.5030503@pobox.com> <5t3tq2du95d9qlaij4qdmch6uiubamca9j@4ax.com> <45B34589.5060804@iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72162 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have an intuitive feeling - totally unsubstantiated - that the law of energy conservation is to energy, what Newton's laws were to mechanics (or physics in general). I mean you can take a pound of any explosive and explain that the energy from that explosive is a direct (measurable) result of the chemical energy used (a) to combine the chemical ingredients and (b) recombinations with the oxygen inside and outside of the explosive itself (rather a crude explanation). But when one looks at a nuclear explosion or nuclear energy in general, how do we get to the source of the energy that was used to "combine" the subatomic particles in the first place, to form whole atoms? How far back in this "process" do we have to go? We just assume that on a universal scale the first law has always operated... So it could be that energy is inherent in everything (as Einstein demonstrated of course). But I keep asking the question: If there's as much energy in a pound of butter as there is in a pound of uranium, how do we release the energy from the butter? Perhaps the current research into LENR will give us some insight (and eventually we'll run our heating systems on butter!!!) P. At 09:50 PM 1/21/2007 +1100, you wrote: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>In reply to Stephen A. Lawrence's message of Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:00:17 >>-0500: >>Hi, >>[snip] >> >> >>>Because it doesn't. It's a magnetic motor -- permanent-magnet-based >>>engine -- and there's no mechanism for it to "steal heat" from the >>>environment, nor any evidence whatsoever that it does so. >>> >>>It's type-1 perpetual motion: violation of the first law, which is >>>conservation of energy. If the Steorn motor works, then a Steorn motor >>>operating in a closed environment will warm up that environment. >>> >> >>If it works at all, then I'd be more inclined to believe that it is deriving >>energy from an unexpected source, rather than creating it. >> >>One off-beat possibility is a time distortion field. I wonder if clocks >>in the >>surroundings run at a different speed? :) >> >Time or inertia distortions are a distinct possibility if zero point >energy is being tapped and Haisch, Rueda and Puttoff are right that ZPE is >the energy behind inertia, gravity and thus all potential energy. >see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_electrodynamics > >>[snip] >>Regards, >> >>Robin van Spaandonk >> >>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> >>Competition provides the motivation, >>Cooperation provides the means. >> >> From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 07:11:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0LFBc45024843; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 07:11:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0LFBZ8L024824; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 07:11:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 07:11:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Yvr6RPp+iYDYkeSI5YQWJynX+Do+86teh1GXJvapis2p9Km154IYgvGngCSr++u3a7YWKPEAPQNqIi4bGKjnGA64v/b2bJEZrg6qjSLoBqDijfcbDI4zkutHzGJcaU2hgtrtv4du8JWWjNSZDDh1kgB27tVpIqTg+7Dgymmm7EQ= ; X-YMail-OSG: uMoC35MVM1kRds7_By2gA6jt1O5dFJ6Hg071gG8.Q1_cyhl1gJbxhDsD_f1C3Zx5lpY.3FLfMeykAxpbtFqZE93HMFlVkr.IiFO5T22trpZW6_k3Nb4- Message-ID: <45B382A2.6030208@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 07:11:30 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72163 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Iogen, eh? Status: O X-Status: I-owe-gen, eh? > as in "I owe it all to genetics" About --Iogen-- Cellulose Ethanol Enzyme Technology Canadian "smarts" at work, eh Philip? Probably w/o the need for an ice-cold catalyst either: i.e. of the Molson's variety... yet they should still hire Mike Myers to do a little PR work for name-recognition. From the Website: http://www.iogen.ca/company/about/index.html Established in the 1970s, Iogen Corporation has become one of Canada's leading biotechnology firms. Iogen is the world leader in technology to produce cellulose ethanol, a fully renewable, advanced biofuel that can be used in today's cars. Iogen is also an industrial manufacturer of enzyme products with a focus on products for use by the pulp and paper, textile and animal feed industries. Iogen is a privately held company, based in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, with a rapidly growing work force. Public and private investment in Iogen has totaled approximately $130 million over the past 25 years. Major investors include the Royal Dutch/Shell Group, Petro-Canada and Goldman Sachs. The company employs a staff of approximately 190 people, with over half involved in research and development, and engineering; one fifth in manufacturing; and the balance in sales, marketing, and administration. Cellulose Ethanol is Ready to Go Cellulose ethanol can significantly: * lower overall greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions * reduce reliance on imported oil and increase energy security * help build rural economies and improve farm income Cellulose ethanol is one of the most cost effective ways to reduce GHGs and gasoline consumption in road transport and can deliver benefits similar to improved vehicle efficiency. Iogen built and operates the world's only demonstration scale facility to convert biomass to cellulose ethanol using enzyme technology. This facility is located in Ottawa. Iogen is currently assessing potential locations for the world's first commercial prototype cellulose ethanol plant. In the long-term, Iogen intends to commercialize its cellulose ethanol process by licensing its technology broadly through turnkey plant construction partnerships. License fees and the supply of enzymes to the licensees' plants will generate income. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 07:14:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0LFE5xq028982; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 07:14:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0LFE3JH028957; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 07:14:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 07:14:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=REF5BaR0A0At0R+11eadJ3wC4baStpgxc3hzewb+mKRYq6SjpI/U5qBg+RdrFSCBXI0w3MVewivySOZU0QAavgyItlDrwGu/1cMsqv5vqdPPMzxfQyefds5cJ7tk1kFhjeXKb42u9KbQR0d6bL1bWyPtWqcKbMPFDlTaeJwJOmU= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:14:00 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20070121063912.00ba7d38@pop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20070120232519.90878.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20070121063912.00ba7d38@pop> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72164 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/21/07, Philip Winestone wrote: > (And we too have our major sources of inertia... We call it collectively, > "the government.") "Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information and religions destroy spirituality. Michael Ellner" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 09:06:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0LH5lVo009056; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:05:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0LH5ja9009035; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:05:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:05:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=ptianJ2qW2bFzBq9GAQOurE4tICmAqKJ4r+P6wXEGz83V21iUbt85rm18p2CXQqeWO9s3+d6LPnls5SljqmXI7YoIXNmdDYRnm373VCZDsNGo9Yli/GKkXIs1jf16MNpo9Hk/mnmemHsoX0Mu7d4bpYHL6Sh8pDDdWbIRa0LGKo=; X-YMail-OSG: 7GIYGGwVM1lRTk6i77Vtm_OmZCVcmBK.sXeiUrA.6DmZ08srVh5_z858Z33CAYIiVvmI8oL8nJFAHZDGUq6VLv.WJW4sjC30y7BuvoMnMaSwKFhIXjwsT23S61czZqd74mwH6mZ24X84qo0_5ZqZB994 Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:05:43 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <614418.1790.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <0e1YBC.A.HNC.o15sFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72165 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: wPhilip Winestone wrote: > I have an intuitive feeling - totally unsubstantiated - that the law of > energy conservation is to energy, what Newton's laws were to mechanics > (or physics in general). John Berry wrote: > However this whole discussion is foolishness, you can't get free energy > from magnetic interactions. I will show three examples that violate the conservation of energy in terms of standard physics, but not to insinuate such energy is being created. Rather to demonstrate present understanding of elementary physics is flawed. The science community could greatly benefit by going back to basics, to understanding basic electromagnetism. Energy contained in a region of magnetic field is claimed to be --> E = V B^2 / (2 U0) V = volume B = magnetic field U0 = permeability of free space Therefore if the field doubles then the energy quadruples. Energy Violation #1: Consider two lasers side by side, *slightly* inwardly slanted so the two beams eventually overlap and cross. Both lasers are in phase so the fields nearly double when they overlap. In that region of space it seems the field energy quadruples. The field energy from four lasers would increase by 16 times in that region, or 256 times from just 16 lasers. Energy Violation #2: Lets consider radio antennas. Consider an antenna that radiates just a short pulse. A few wavelengths away from that antenna is another antenna with a load. The load collects some energy from the wave. Now add another radiating antenna on the opposite side of the energy collecting antenna. So we have an energy collecting antenna in the center of two radiating antennas. Both radiators send a pulse. The induced voltage (E-field) from the entire pulse doubles across the energy collecting antenna. Therefore the energy collecting antenna collects four times as much energy. Now place four radiating antennas to form a circle around the energy collecting antenna. This requires four times as much energy, but the energy collecting antenna collects 16 times as much energy. Energy Violation #3: Consider the intrinsic electron spin, which we'll call ES. Ferromagnetic atoms have unpaired ES, and therefore create a net appreciable magnetic field outside the atom. Consider two such atoms that are magnetically unaligned. Now allow the two atoms to align. We know from atomic scale experimentation from companies such as IBM that during avalanches the magnetic atoms rotate in magnetic alignment. Typically this can take a few nanoseconds in non-electrically conductive magnetic materials, and much slower in electrically conductive magnetic materials (due to eddy currents). Understandably this releases energy. On a larger scale, if we hold two PM's (Permanent Magnets) that are magnetically unaligned, we know they want to rotate so they become magnetically aligned. If we allow the two PM's to rotate they will gain angular kinetic energy as they rotate. In fact, if there's no friction the two PM's will continue to vibrate back and forth due to momentum and magnetic attraction. We gain kinetic energy, but also note that the net magnetic field actually increases as the two PM's rotate and align. According to the above equation, that also constitutes energy. Now replicate the same PM experiments except use air core coils generated by current. --->>>We get the same results except we learn a little something about where the energy comes from.<<<--- While the two air coils are rotating toward magnetic alignment there's an induced voltage opposing the current in both air coils. That drains energy from the source of power that generates the current in the air coils. Again, we gain kinetic energy ***and*** field energy (above equation). To demonstrate that we gain field energy we can remove the current source from the two air coils, which will cause a EMP. If you place a load on the both air coils you can collect such energy. That's why pure inductors dissipate zero energy; i.e., energy goes in the inductor in the form of a magnetic field, but during the other half of the cycle such energy goes back to the source. Now in going back to the original experiment regarding the two ferromagnetic atoms one needs to ask, "Where is the energy coming from when the two ES's are rotating in magnetic alignment?" Again, we gain kinetic energy in addition to field energy. I have asked such a question to dozens of QM (Quantum Mechanics) physics. To date no QM physics can answer the question. The first example regarding lasers demonstrates how the so-called B-field energy increases exponentially relative to consumed energy from the lasers. The second example regarding antennas demonstrates how energy from the E-field increase exponentially relative to consumed energy from the antennas. The third example demonstrates how elementary particles seem to disregard such so-called energy, as we know it. Perhaps modern physicists should reconsider such equations and the workings of elementary physics. On the other hand, for most people such basic stuff is no fun. Everyone seems to love working on big stuff from black holes to super strings, LOL. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 11:10:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0LJAVNg018832; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 11:10:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0LJASL5018804; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 11:10:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 11:10:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00e401c73d8f$c9dd2700$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <900332.49170.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 20:09:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0LJAPv3018786 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72166 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy > >> The funny think is that the N-Machine is very very > >> easy to test > > Shhh, don't tell that to Dr. Kincheloe, ***a Professor > of Electrical Engineering!*** > It's really difficult to read a DC voltage meter and > multiply it by the DC current. ;-) If what you're expecting as a result is electrical power, yes it can be tricky at times :) What did the current and voltage look like on a scope? Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 12:06:31 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0LK6ODV009898; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:06:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0LK6LQl009854; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:06:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:06:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=uO1yHo5Z0h9L38WAis65MIGcFZms27NhfaoKvQNxe3JyIBXzm2VMS3wBDxpsjQwdamYDTI7e6SUVZi9s4oMxCaclPg3dmprL+olmZdr8Sp+UKqCxrrdwR+GmcaJguWP3JxoK/noTI/0UvgIqww+LSQlzkRlpm9OTKgK0qbtUuFo=; X-YMail-OSG: IH5XvCAVM1lDGGHztPIcyNCQogM5t.abyNz_DRo5isbXXMbS8DZMFrUbmIVgemaxLkN.jkB9CtGqhaanVBjBlaSvH4Ppo0oc8TJPASIhar_v86b2PMzbV6_bH60ZpLk_Fxp0wWCBtP0WWytnuBeT5RPDPN_WtB89vJMJXxo_pIOZOUw9SgKb5CvNVcwEJ10zLmgA.A-- Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:06:19 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <498519.19808.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72167 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 12:36 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy >>>> The funny think is that the N-Machine is very very >>>> easy to test >> Shhh, don't tell that to Dr. Kincheloe, ***a Professor >> of Electrical Engineering!*** >> It's really difficult to read a DC voltage meter and >> multiply it by the DC current. ;-) > > If what you're expecting as a result is electrical power, yes it can be tricky at times :) What did the current and voltage look like on a scope? > > Michel Hi, I referring to DC signals. Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 13:11:20 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0LLBCid004678; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 13:11:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0LLBAPa004662; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 13:11:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 13:11:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <00f201c73da0$ac34ed80$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <498519.19808.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 22:11:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0LLB8bu004636 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72168 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: So I understood, but by DC do you mean constant value, or just not AC (not zero average) ? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy > Michel Jullian wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 12:36 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy > >>>> The funny think is that the N-Machine is very > very > >>>> easy to test > >> Shhh, don't tell that to Dr. Kincheloe, ***a > Professor > >> of Electrical Engineering!*** > >> It's really difficult to read a DC voltage meter > and > >> multiply it by the DC current. ;-) > > > > If what you're expecting as a result is electrical > power, yes it can be tricky at times > :) What did the current and voltage look like on a > scope? > > > > Michel > > > Hi, > > I referring to DC signals. > > > Paul > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Cheap talk? > Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > http://voice.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 14:04:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0LM41Ck028308; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:04:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0LM3wMw028258; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:03:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:03:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=oPKL4uqwQHPm8Vww+jSBz0HoEdT1fRTRCeMWwSAuYxRXOo18nNyiTiAhTSV8yDsXEfLeL5ZcIrEh5ySEgfqjq0DiAJUMtXiy41JHN2bBx0CYeRksd1kFg2Q4ouunhOnX1Jd/6KPjfaUAMvhsQpMoM89l9WnPYO3RStCjOe272MI=; X-YMail-OSG: 6D0N6boVM1nBECAwnRW6iCJkB437X4u0Oye38ABgrQEbDs7mjjOoJxPEnVvbJv7RpTBDztMWK1xyX1fBDinMOZUzKTotChB.Waxo1L.pa9YQm.EtZzC6EOXdjF_KFxRW2g77ZBeIEguVFPUZXphHmIhLjUBH8IEkjvw4_qfSNr70TaTCTLZWg.q9brW5IhHqralJuQ-- Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:03:50 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <973774.17001.qm@web62414.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <2mOSdD.A.Z5G.ON-sFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72169 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > So I understood, but by DC do you mean constant value, or just not AC (not zero average) ? Constant voltage and current, constant value as you put it, with no AC. Paul > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:06 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Paul" >>> To: >>> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 12:36 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy >>>>>> The funny think is that the N-Machine is very >> very >>>>>> easy to test >>>> Shhh, don't tell that to Dr. Kincheloe, ***a >> Professor >>>> of Electrical Engineering!*** >>>> It's really difficult to read a DC voltage meter >> and >>>> multiply it by the DC current. ;-) >>> If what you're expecting as a result is electrical >> power, yes it can be tricky at times >> :) What did the current and voltage look like on a >> scope? >>> Michel >> >> Hi, >> >> I referring to DC signals. >> >> >> Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 14:24:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0LMNxCM002712; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:24:00 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0LMNsPk002555; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:23:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:23:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=blxeTYV+YPcYBKTlJ/Zij5GuAR0fNtj12xnyyYBIPKw2x+ZYnCoOjPrgZvGYv2g4leHHMAyIqyLE6Ey7hsVSj26zEMKQfyNXhiW4jfkcBeYO6WFhjBh4bhjRAt86VVGM5ASRTLQfQYQ2LqKMoeg4ZIpYlkaP0q15iQ1NSQbEnEw= ; X-YMail-OSG: M_VL.bwVM1kQ0gI2ayiOgNOKQBAH7qr0iuj6sFYCQ1dqbyIcvYC5cj6gcHI8W5o.og-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20070121171444.01f75708@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:21:02 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: Iogen, eh? In-Reply-To: <45B382A2.6030208@pacbell.net> References: <45B382A2.6030208@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72170 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Canadian "smarts" at work, eh Philip? All these Canadian smarts have no idea that the "eh" started off (or "aff") in Glasgow, my city of origin. It's actually more like "aih". The problem with the company's approach, from some of my tentative dealings with them, is that like a lot of such companies, they like to get into bed (so to speak) with big government. My way of looking at it is that if they can't swing the production of ethanol in an independent, profitable manner, they should get out of the business (as all such companies should). Government sucks as a business partner. My own tack on all this (as I indicated earlier) is to nail down the logistics (in the manner I mentioned) and get people working, who otherwise would not be working (ie: in the pulp and paper sector). Can we drink (Molsons) to that? P. At 07:11 AM 1/21/2007 -0800, you wrote: >I-owe-gen, eh? > as in "I owe it all to genetics" > >About --Iogen-- Cellulose Ethanol Enzyme Technology > >Canadian "smarts" at work, eh Philip? > >Probably w/o the need for an ice-cold catalyst either: i.e. of the >Molson's variety... yet they should still hire Mike Myers to do a little >PR work for name-recognition. From the Website: > >http://www.iogen.ca/company/about/index.html > >Established in the 1970s, Iogen Corporation has become one of Canada's >leading biotechnology firms. Iogen is the world leader in technology to >produce cellulose ethanol, a fully renewable, advanced biofuel that can be >used in today's cars. Iogen is also an industrial manufacturer of enzyme >products with a focus on products for use by the pulp and paper, textile >and animal feed industries. > >Iogen is a privately held company, based in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, with >a rapidly growing work force. Public and private investment in Iogen has >totaled approximately $130 million over the past 25 years. Major investors >include the Royal Dutch/Shell Group, Petro-Canada and Goldman Sachs. The >company employs a staff of approximately 190 people, with over half >involved in research and development, and engineering; one fifth in >manufacturing; and the balance in sales, marketing, and administration. > >Cellulose Ethanol is Ready to Go > >Cellulose ethanol can significantly: > > * lower overall greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions > * reduce reliance on imported oil and increase energy security > * help build rural economies and improve farm income > >Cellulose ethanol is one of the most cost effective ways to reduce GHGs >and gasoline consumption in road transport and can deliver benefits >similar to improved vehicle efficiency. > >Iogen built and operates the world's only demonstration scale facility to >convert biomass to cellulose ethanol using enzyme technology. This >facility is located in Ottawa. Iogen is currently assessing potential >locations for the world's first commercial prototype cellulose ethanol plant. > >In the long-term, Iogen intends to commercialize its cellulose ethanol >process by licensing its technology broadly through turnkey plant >construction partnerships. License fees and the supply of enzymes to the >licensees' plants will generate income. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 14:29:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0LMTAhH005543; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:29:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0LMT9l7005525; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:29:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:29:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=ChBsuUcCEI+qCt2xBXHXw4Hsb1s/Ujsft/67X/SM6z+asVVVA/P4t0ydnkQPjHi4tsA4DvEqdc5RXUW44ydS1FXS5MGOTOP71rT5kPPTZJJgCb+osgf3a14/RGvAIfqpniSLARy9BDZzIzCzar8er0VMYZPr6oc4e4hYos9M0R0= ; X-YMail-OSG: wdQKSoIVM1n0wRU_lgtd0WpiszF2PSjaLfXy.Kn.QGgIJUjexfIJx_wBmywyoh9Gdw-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20070121172241.00ba7d20@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:26:23 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-Reply-To: References: <20070120232519.90878.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.1.20070121063912.00ba7d38@pop> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72171 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Excellent!!! How true!!! The reason is that the intent in all cases is to indoctrinate along certain predictable lines thus creating a nice docile herd. It's not to create clear, creative thinking - usually through doubting accepted dogma then applying "lateral thinking" and ultimately applying solid investigation. Call me a cynic... P. At 10:14 AM 1/21/2007 -0500, you wrote: >On 1/21/07, Philip Winestone wrote: > >>(And we too have our major sources of inertia... We call it collectively, >>"the government.") > >"Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. >Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy >knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy >information and religions destroy spirituality. > >Michael Ellner" From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 16:17:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0M0Gt2c031259; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:16:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0M0GnIx031216; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:16:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:16:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <010301c73dba$9c1e20a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <973774.17001.qm@web62414.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 01:16:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0M0GmFg031192 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72172 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As discussed here before, if any or both of the current and voltage is constant then power can indeed be measured as simply as you said, otherwise it can't. It is a common mistake (or fraud) in overunity claims to pretend that average I times average V is equal to average I*V (power) when the signals are both time-varying. It is also common to believe (or pretend) that they are constant by not looking at them with the right time resolution. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy > Michel Jullian wrote: > > So I understood, but by DC do you mean constant > value, or just not AC (not zero average) ? > > Constant voltage and current, constant value as you > put it, with no AC. > > Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:06 PM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy > > > > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Paul" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 12:36 AM > >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy > >>>>>> The funny think is that the N-Machine is very > >> very > >>>>>> easy to test > >>>> Shhh, don't tell that to Dr. Kincheloe, ***a > >> Professor > >>>> of Electrical Engineering!*** > >>>> It's really difficult to read a DC voltage meter > >> and > >>>> multiply it by the DC current. ;-) > >>> If what you're expecting as a result is > electrical > >> power, yes it can be tricky at times > >> :) What did the current and voltage look like on a > >> scope? > >>> Michel > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I referring to DC signals. > >> > >> > >> Paul > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 16:39:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0M0cvAm011018; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:38:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0M0cuf8011003; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:38:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 16:38:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002001c73dbd$b2e71370$c5037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:38:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C73D8B.677221F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72173 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]:Re: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol.. Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C73D8B.677221F0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001D_01C73D8B.677221F0" ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C73D8B.677221F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankPhilip wrote.. Excellent!!! How true!!! The reason is that the intent in all cases is = to=20 indoctrinate along certain predictable lines thus creating a nice docile = herd. It's not to create clear, creative thinking - usually through=20 doubting accepted dogma then applying "lateral thinking" and ultimately=20 applying solid investigation. Call me a cynic... Howdy Philip, Old story from the bible....And the people cried, we want a king. = Samuel explained.. you have a King !. The people cried, no, we want a = king like everybody else. Samuel explained.. If you elect a king, he will make your daughters = servants, conscript your sons into an army and take your best land.=20 What this means is that if you pay somebody to do your worrying for = you.. it is only a small step to where they start doing your thinking = for you.. when this happens.. they wind up owning you. Most issues can be simply resolved by identifying the troublemakers.. = handcuff one of their hands to the other guy's hand .. give them both a = sharp machete... take them outside the Dime Box Tavern.. and let them = work it out between themselves. Sure saves on broken glass and mirrors. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C73D8B.677221F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Philip wrote..

Excellent!!! How true!!! The reason is that the intent in all cases = is to=20
indoctrinate along certain predictable lines thus creating a nice = docile=20
herd.  It's not to create clear, creative thinking - usually = through=20
doubting accepted dogma then applying "lateral thinking" and = ultimately=20
applying solid investigation.

Call me a cynic...



Howdy Philip,

Old story from the bible....And the people cried, we want a = king. =20 Samuel explained.. you have a King !. The people cried, no, we want a = king like=20 everybody else.

Samuel explained.. If you elect a king, he will make your daughters = servants,=20 conscript your sons into an army and take your best land. 

 What this means is that if you pay somebody to do your worrying = for=20 you.. it is only a small step to where they start doing your thinking = for you..=20 when this happens.. they wind up owning you.

Most issues can be simply resolved by identifying the = troublemakers..=20 handcuff one of their hands to the other guy's hand .. give them = both a=20 sharp machete... take them outside the Dime Box Tavern.. and let them = work it=20 out between themselves. Sure saves on broken glass and mirrors.

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_001D_01C73D8B.677221F0-- ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C73D8B.677221F0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001b01c73dbd$b1fbc910$c5037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C73D8B.677221F0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 18:19:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0M2JdaP001578; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:19:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0M2JbTm001545; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:19:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:19:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-Id:X-Sender:X-Mailer:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=M/J4/VnpUz5FPl6kDmWvLQMMSaP8fjcr8A1YFfxO6BTaq7chC9o1pe2nCVGynaqUQ9Bqs4pTt+hp2rZpHOMkqQrfTprjx7PX6gQ+PiQ8j+I4rPzt7KgU7MmbZEJNad3yE2HYV57XHgz1mDIHuO0tBEDKMYmowv5zbLyOwNktJms= ; X-YMail-OSG: XN5C1sAVM1nUApMBoN0mcIiC.NFWEZ4ijpz0C1e.n_nFLX1ljPjLCKuM.ra804c4yA-- Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.1.20070121211451.00ba7da8@pop> X-Sender: philip.winestone@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.1.1 Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 21:16:17 -0500 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Philip Winestone Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]:Re: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol.. In-Reply-To: <002001c73dbd$b2e71370$c5037841@xptower> References: <002001c73dbd$b2e71370$c5037841@xptower> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72174 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Perfect Richard. But I still have to see Dime Box to believe it really exists... and that it has a tavern... P. At 06:38 PM 1/21/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Philip wrote.. > >Excellent!!! How true!!! The reason is that the intent in all cases is to >indoctrinate along certain predictable lines thus creating a nice docile >herd. It's not to create clear, creative thinking - usually through >doubting accepted dogma then applying "lateral thinking" and ultimately >applying solid investigation. > >Call me a cynic... > > > >Howdy Philip, > >Old story from the bible....And the people cried, we want a king. Samuel >explained.. you have a King !. The people cried, no, we want a king like >everybody else. > >Samuel explained.. If you elect a king, he will make your daughters >servants, conscript your sons into an army and take your best land. > > What this means is that if you pay somebody to do your worrying for > you.. it is only a small step to where they start doing your thinking for > you.. when this happens.. they wind up owning you. > >Most issues can be simply resolved by identifying the troublemakers.. >handcuff one of their hands to the other guy's hand .. give them both a >sharp machete... take them outside the Dime Box Tavern.. and let them work >it out between themselves. Sure saves on broken glass and mirrors. > >Richard > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 19:26:44 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0M3Qbta023606; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:26:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0M3QVZn023572; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:26:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:26:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:26:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9cb8r2p07oe0iv9hme7enftepq1k7movom@4ax.com> References: <614418.1790.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <614418.1790.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 22 Jan 2007 03:26:28 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0M3QS86023532 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72175 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Paul's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:05:43 -0800 (PST): Hi Paul, [snip] >If you place a load on >the both air coils you can collect >such energy. That's why pure inductors dissipate zero >energy; i.e., energy goes in the >inductor in the form of a magnetic field, but during >the other half of the cycle such >energy goes back to the source. Here above your describe the storing of energy in the magnetic field surrounding the magnets (coils), which is then released as the field collapses. I think this is also the answer to your magnet question. The energy was stored in the magnetic field around the magnets when they were pulled apart. If they were never together in the first place, then when they were made. It is repeatable. Once the magnets have been aligned, you have to exert considerable force to unalign them, and in so doing, you store energy in their respective fields, that is released again when they are allowed to realign. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 20:00:35 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0M40PWM005131; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 20:00:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0M40O85005121; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 20:00:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 20:00:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=n2TVSZqzIbkBn+JRsNmJsDK8yrT86Ult2XvAPgj5x1e2Cc9D4FPdLcNiOb+I6ev6hH+ZxL+/9wkLhwzOWrHKVwom0Qa0VPrEtQprIwRAa9899+7G+CR8Kq56VQeUkvHoEOqKvTfVV2B/813uxThzJo+IKWcRne3Zx43bVRERYZ8= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 23:00:23 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Iogen, eh? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.1.20070121171444.01f75708@pop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45B382A2.6030208@pacbell.net> <6.1.1.1.1.20070121171444.01f75708@pop> Resent-Message-ID: <43-2QB.A.8PB.YbDtFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72176 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/21/07, Philip Winestone wrote: > Canadian "smarts" at work, eh Philip? > > All these Canadian smarts have no idea that the "eh" started off (or "aff") > in Glasgow, my city of origin. It's actually more like "aih". Oh, CANADA! Spelled: C-eh-N-eh-D-eh. But, I *do* love hockey. The Gwinnett Gladiators kicked the a$$ of the Florida Everblades last night 3-1. Terry (living merely one mile from the home of the Sugarloaf Madam's home) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 23:18:11 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0M7I0ei013755; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 23:18:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0M7Hw52013739; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 23:17:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 23:17:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 02:16:20 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy In-reply-to: <010301c73dba$9c1e20a0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <1a9lF.A.nWD.mUGtFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72177 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If the resistance is a constant, then would either (V^2)/(R) or (I^2)(R) equal average power? Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > As discussed here before, if any or both of the current and voltage is > constant then power can indeed be measured as simply as you said, otherwise it > can't. It is a common mistake (or fraud) in overunity claims to pretend that > average I times average V is equal to average I*V (power) when the signals are > both time-varying. It is also common to believe (or pretend) that they are > constant by not looking at them with the right time resolution. > > Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 21 23:47:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0M7lAAq008363; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 23:47:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0M7l8O3008348; Sun, 21 Jan 2007 23:47:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 23:47:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <013401c73df9$84eb9090$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:47:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0M7l6Qw008322 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72178 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Only if V or I is the Root of the Mean Square of the instantaneous value (RMS value), which is not usually what a multimeter displays in the DC setting BTW (it displays the average value). Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" To: Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Bruce Depalma & "Free Energy > If the resistance is a constant, then would either (V^2)/(R) or (I^2)(R) > equal average power? > > Harry > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> As discussed here before, if any or both of the current and voltage is >> constant then power can indeed be measured as simply as you said, otherwise it >> can't. It is a common mistake (or fraud) in overunity claims to pretend that >> average I times average V is equal to average I*V (power) when the signals are >> both time-varying. It is also common to believe (or pretend) that they are >> constant by not looking at them with the right time resolution. >> >> Michel > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 07:01:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MF0wNm016972; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:00:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MF0um7016945; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:00:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:00:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=XCAoUlV8mZt+UN0uGIQpvLpRabSO22pJO06i4JbUC250Hk8Gu/R3lZbUVBopZLqid31Zi2cuaL2IhDpfVQyhIDvajr8Hu7M2hbygBXaf1V/XxlhCx/kiScJbAkOmmfOPewI/Vb/9AqnSGgaIAeXDJyo+B2J7h70vUZFyIjlhKmc=; X-YMail-OSG: fBmT0VgVM1np4vwIHmR_8qxeki0WVNt4LvjfNhiBaExRHtRRJmKpwUm3typtM1IMOI6dYMbpttymPdAbnF95s37tJqBPHr7Wd71gFRIQIXqmI9d14dvJyb3er_F8KrO8T6e7q03o.cU1ocWu4kYQBw63 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:00:51 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <324480.34086.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72179 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Paul's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:05:43 -0800 (PST): > Hi Paul, > [snip] >> If you place a load on >> the both air coils you can collect >> such energy. That's why pure inductors dissipate zero >> energy; i.e., energy goes in the >> inductor in the form of a magnetic field, but during >> the other half of the cycle such >> energy goes back to the source. > > Here above your describe the storing of energy in the magnetic field surrounding > the magnets (coils), which is then released as the field collapses. > I think this is also the answer to your magnet question. > The energy was stored in the magnetic field around the magnets when they were > pulled apart. If they were never together in the first place, then when they > were made. It is repeatable. Once the magnets have been aligned, you have to > exert considerable force to unalign them, and in so doing, you store energy in > their respective fields, that is released again when they are allowed to > realign. > Regards, You missed the connection as to why I used an air coil as comparison. The air coil reveals the energies involved. As the two air coils (with current flowing in coils of course) become closer there's a drain on the current source. The current source generates the current in the air coils. IOW, energy is being removed from the current source as the two air coils rotate in magnetic alignment. That energy goes to two places. 1. Kinetic energy as the two air coils rotate to magnetic alignment. 2. Increase in net magnetic field. The same applies to permanent magnets. Energy goes to the same two places. The difference being that we know where the energy comes from in regards to the air coils, but we have no idea where the energy comes from within the electrons intrinsic spin. Present science has *no idea* how, why, or what sustain the magnetic dipole moment of the electron. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 07:51:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MFpNRg016802; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:51:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MFpL3a016765; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:51:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:51:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=JhhD3ckjKTh6sP0rQosmiUQephZl0YmxZyn4VLdMvZhVaWKsvKtsO4PuWRJLsU0EqndPNOSxDGohZbqEuQ5636eZBQZkpJxENli3+inV6VujYJDSjQh8VGukBjzQddvtzPgk28SuWcsVKP83cMb6/gVFcpKWFqVWY4YkKo2u02Q= ; X-YMail-OSG: qse3uBkVM1melTU2gypS_cDvc.DZJranxs9qVqJgmD7CpluPwcsdOCcwcdGEZLOlTdQWz6g2NQ-- Message-ID: <45B4DD69.1040104@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:51:05 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <324480.34086.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <324480.34086.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72180 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Present science has *no idea* how, why, or what sustain the > magnetic dipole moment of the electron. FWIW - Hal Puthoff seems to have a pretty good mathematical understanding of this, but one suspects that is not easy for him or anyone else to put that into words - other than three-letter acronyms. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 08:15:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MGFYRj024623; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:15:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MGFWLN024605; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:15:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:15:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 52l9UhAVM1mxdF1xXGVtxqrdjgLlkwSgcv_zRuveeU6KOnQp.X9.hhuSUaHD6EDKPpStlvTMJnj3pzWgxLQ4fXFB5NuifQoiQhIJnA2bozo5wtrdMdtdZvBTqksB1qzyOOhca25OXaUTGEc- Message-ID: <45B4E31D.4010306@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:15:25 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <614418.1790.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <614418.1790.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72181 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > wPhilip Winestone wrote: > > I have an intuitive feeling - totally > unsubstantiated - that the law of > > energy conservation is to energy, what Newton's > laws were to mechanics > > (or physics in general). > > John Berry wrote: > > However this whole discussion is foolishness, you > can't get free energy > > from magnetic interactions. > > > > > I will show three examples that violate the > conservation of energy in terms of standard > physics, but not to insinuate such energy is being > created. Rather to demonstrate present > understanding of elementary physics is flawed. > > The science community could greatly benefit by going > back to basics, to understanding > basic electromagnetism. Energy contained in a region > of magnetic field is claimed to be --> > > E = V B^2 / (2 U0) > > V = volume > B = magnetic field > U0 = permeability of free space > > Therefore if the field doubles then the energy > quadruples. > > Energy Violation #1: > Consider two lasers side by side, *slightly* inwardly > slanted so the two beams eventually > overlap and cross. Both lasers are in phase so the > fields nearly double when they overlap. > In that region of space it seems the field energy > quadruples. The field energy from four > lasers would increase by 16 times in that region, or > 256 times from just 16 lasers. You are neglecting the fact that the waves reinforce in some places and cancel in others. You've "modeled" the lasers as producing perfect plane parallel waves, and then you've assumed that by placing them close together and turning the beams only slightly you can ignore the fact that the wave fronts don't line up exactly. Neither assumption is correct. Lasers are not magic; this exact scenario can be set up using water waves in two dimensions rather than EM waves in 3. If you work it out for any real case you'll find that wave energy is, indeed, conserved. However, you can set up cases which are complicated enough that you won't be able to arrive at an answer -- with that I won't disagree! In the case of lasers, to get an exact answer you need to take account of the diffraction of the beams (which results in the collimation being imperfect) and the fact that the beams don't line up perfectly. It's certainly complicated; too complicated to solve easily and too complicated to model mentally with a simple picture. > Energy Violation #2: > Lets consider radio antennas. Consider an antenna that > radiates just a short pulse. A few > wavelengths away from that antenna is another antenna > with a load. The load collects some > energy from the wave. Now add another radiating > antenna on the opposite side of the > energy collecting antenna. So we have an energy > collecting antenna in the center of two > radiating antennas. Both radiators send a pulse. The > induced voltage (E-field) from the > entire pulse doubles across the energy collecting > antenna. Therefore the energy > collecting antenna collects four times as much energy. > Now place four radiating antennas > to form a circle around the energy collecting antenna. > This requires four times as much > energy, but the energy collecting antenna collects 16 > times as much energy. Once again you've neglected the fact that you've got "dead spots" in the pattern where the waves cancel instead of overlapping. If you put receiving antennas all around, rather than just putting one at the point where you know all the waves reinforce, you'd find the power received at some of them was dropping as you added more antennas. You are, essentially, just focusing the pulse by adding more antennas. And, of course, the total power received is still going to be _less_ than the total power radiated. You can, again, imagine that you're using a parabolic reflector and focusing "all" the energy on the receiver -- but again, that's just an approximation. You can't get a plane parallel wave from an antenna any more than you can from a laser (due to diffraction), and again you can't line up the emitters in such a way that you get reinforcement everywhere. > > Energy Violation #3: > Consider the intrinsic electron spin, which we'll call > ES. Ferromagnetic atoms have > unpaired ES, and therefore create a net appreciable > magnetic field outside the atom. > Consider two such atoms that are magnetically > unaligned. Now allow the two atoms to align. > We know from atomic scale experimentation from > companies such as IBM that during > avalanches the magnetic atoms rotate in magnetic > alignment. Typically this can take a few > nanoseconds in non-electrically conductive magnetic > materials, and much slower in > electrically conductive magnetic materials (due to > eddy currents). Understandably this > releases energy. On a larger scale, if we hold two > PM's (Permanent Magnets) that are > magnetically unaligned, we know they want to rotate so > they become magnetically aligned. > If we allow the two PM's to rotate they will gain > angular kinetic energy as they rotate. > In fact, if there's no friction the two PM's will > continue to vibrate back and forth due > to momentum and magnetic attraction. We gain kinetic > energy, but also note that the net > magnetic field actually increases as the two PM's > rotate and align. According to the above > equation, that also constitutes energy. Interactions between permanent dipoles are conservative, as I've observed before in this NG. The action of a magnetic field on a permanent dipole can be described with a potential function. > Now replicate > the same PM experiments except use > air core coils generated by current. --->>>We get the > same results except we learn a > little something about where the energy comes > from.<<<--- While the two air coils are > rotating toward magnetic alignment there's an induced > voltage opposing the current in both > air coils. That drains energy from the source of power > that generates the current in the > air coils. Again, we gain kinetic energy ***and*** > field energy (above equation). And you can get the field energy back out again, too. In interactions between electromagnets, electrical energy in (and out) and mechanical energy out (and in) balance. > To > demonstrate that we gain field energy we can remove > the current source from the two air > coils, which will cause a EMP. If you place a load on > the both air coils you can collect > such energy. That's why pure inductors dissipate zero > energy; i.e., energy goes in the > inductor in the form of a magnetic field, but during > the other half of the cycle such > energy goes back to the source. Now in going back to > the original experiment regarding the > two ferromagnetic atoms one needs to ask, "Where is > the energy coming from when the two > ES's are rotating in magnetic alignment?" > Again, we > gain kinetic energy in addition to > field energy. I have asked such a question to dozens > of QM (Quantum Mechanics) physics. To > date no QM physics can answer the question. Again, in the case of a permanent magnet the action of the field can be described with a potential function. Almost nobody wants to be caught saying "The energy comes from the magnetic field" because everybody knows magnetic fields aren't supposed to do work, so you tend to get silence when you ask where the energy comes from. I know at least one professional physicist who just flatly says the energy comes from the B field, though, so there you go. In any case the interaction is conservative -- the potential function for a dipole "mu" in a magnetic field "B" is the dot product of the dipole and the field strength, -. That correctly describes both the force on the dipole due to nonuniformity in the field, and the torque on the dipole due to misalignment with the field. (Whether you can violate the _second_ law with permanent magnets is something else again...) > > The first example regarding lasers demonstrates how > the so-called B-field energy increases > exponentially relative to consumed energy from the > lasers. The second example regarding > antennas demonstrates how energy from the E-field > increase exponentially relative to > consumed energy from the antennas. The third example > demonstrates how elementary > particles seem to disregard such so-called energy, as > we know it. > > Perhaps modern physicists should reconsider such > equations and the workings of elementary > physics. On the other hand, for most people such basic > stuff is no fun. Everyone seems to > love working on big stuff from black holes to super > strings, LOL. :-) > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 08:30:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MGUl5g007547; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:30:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MGUk8X007524; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:30:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:30:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=gK1gNVXepvERTG/2Q3ncEuLfmBvqjDJqJhB2ef/pjCa+45SNZSB2Sf7jwuUYjFrwU2aq9z0oRCK4uxGmup9eyEj5rDcmLbZxfFDg542sVhN1n7OsMk/oo08YWKXBK603nhTEaAqEyICKcBl3inADhjPATj2SGocQWtzgGmoGvQY= ; Message-ID: <45B4E6A7.4090408@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:30:31 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72182 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: More on the Bettery Status: O X-Status: http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/ The first two comments, at the end of the article, are interesting regarding the technology, but are not dispositive of whether or not this company is "for real" with the Bettery. Also General Motors recently announced ties and commitments to lithium ion battery maker A123 - which to some observers would seem to mean that GM was not impressed with EEStor. Wrong. To put it bluntly, GM will be the last auto company on the planet to find the cutting edge of anything new and promising - at least if they cannot control the company at the Board level. They are a dying giant on a downward spiral to oblivion, which is a sad thing to see, as the trend is indicative of how the USA is becoming a second-rate auto producer drop-by-drop. Chinese torture for the All-American ego. However, the reason that I believe EEStor may reverse that trend and that this will be the "next big thing" in hybrid vehicles is more pragmatic. It relates to an intensive level of "due diligence" and to bright young MBAs poking around in all the sensitive spots. The key "tell" for judging the viability of this particular technolgy and business project - IMHO - has a name: it is called "Kleiner Perkins." Put simply, they are the top-dog in VC (venture capital). Even Business Week can glowingly underestimate their prowess: http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/ These guys are billionaire investors tied closely to Stanford U, which arguably has become the top US University for high tech in the last decade. Kleiner Perkins simply invests money well ... well, as in not-just-wisely but with almost uncanny foresight. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 08:31:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MGV4w2007707; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:31:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MGV1KI007682; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:31:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:31:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=gxQ+1Ny/yKCP+G2jHjToeHkdy4X2BKA8ZN9PX5UFcC/9Z8vNKIWQRjMU2mbPHPtmVDTB6EWpQGZ27UBE+He+Fowh+jhlZpvjtvzod58S2TaweviPGSfEv9EWsSSDJCdsgTzPFEOtCMlaEShrbVXzAfcqnKU2h5HzeGeeAwQRTxc=; X-YMail-OSG: VdLJOksVM1mUF4E0l1di3Ff7_VZMRvxxnkefElYH Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:30:59 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <856436.64548.qm@web62411.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72183 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Paul wrote: > > > Present science has *no idea* how, why, or what sustain the >> magnetic dipole moment of the electron. > > FWIW - Hal Puthoff seems to have a pretty good mathematical > understanding of this, but one suspects that is not easy for him or > anyone else to put that into words - other than three-letter acronyms. > > Jones Thanks. I see Harold Puthoff wrote, "Fundamentals of Quantum Electronics." Perhaps his math and theories are online? Where does he believe the energy comes from? I've theorized it comes from the sea of energy we call time-space. Some referred to it as ZPE, quantum foam, or Aether. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 08:56:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MGuXgC026479; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:56:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MGuTn6026459; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:56:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:56:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ZBBxX3oKy3uYtYIC0f+okt8uStap/R3bto2nx3DETexmP7iMADlKrlQTxbOlxb8pLmFdIhaURGdwxw4a8DHI0LdgV61vgRXy0L/sDA9tfueDd1FPaZ1d+gHMdlslHt1Sgrvc4K07bDhwe08BR5Y0Ai4U/1Z1xggmPHmZ5Zkhzp0= ; X-YMail-OSG: Zzq84YMVM1mzcc9FPSSNyair.quxKTkgDaTykjcV3m9z3.Z4LxUHf_AwbNtUkp.1RX90iR5YFZgp8RuliKF5fvCtC4dY0yc6viy.AAieEIqJs6Y7ncw- Message-ID: <45B4ECB0.1080406@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:56:16 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <856436.64548.qm@web62411.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <856436.64548.qm@web62411.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72184 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Perhaps his math and theories are online? Where does he believe > the energy comes from? I've theorized it comes from the sea of energy we call > time-space. Some referred to it as ZPE, quantum foam, or Aether. Yup. You are plowing the same field as Puthoff did twenty years ago. Here is the website address for pubs: http://www.earthtech.org/publications/index.html Try: H. E. Puthoff, "The Energetic Vacuum: Implications for Energy Research," Spec. in Sci. and Technology 13, 247 (1990). ...for starters' and then note that in their lab work they have yet to really find the definitive experiment to actually prove the theory of ZPE coherence: http://www.earthtech.org/experiments/index.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 11:04:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MJ4MH1030039; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:04:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MJ4KGx030001; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:04:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:04:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=Ua07yovJNlSLAbXu8CNbSoYS+oKsioDtDpB9ksoK7IImapu5L/T463q9rOlnJV7pCywU7OFm7PWSnTqtXtYbl2jHWDK93SrWMReJetjQPMecaXtBkQcAM0DCzHj6al89nmaJqV9f761P1MqHTMPrThqudY7IQ5qUkE9yKo+A10M=; X-YMail-OSG: L4t7YAoVM1mwSA2OkSS7qJxCq5jU4VSYnd9_xWmWxlJ.v40jAOE5qYfJs9axr9xB.z3egjdF34zlZzZP8Om2BW3v6U62mKr5.7neu956a7xUEsdOc_W8Qrpgm6Y6Rt.YdQyqMe8rAxv0wIW3OZqZdsZu Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:04:16 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <596127.56067.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72185 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: [snip] > It's certainly complicated; too complicated to solve easily > and too complicated to model mentally with a simple picture. Very true! That's why computers are so wonderful. IMHO the future of science is held within the computer, as they are great with mathematics, speed, and memory. Simulations will break us free from the limitations of the paper written equations and reveal higher truths of reality. :-) [snip] >> >> Energy Violation #3: >> Consider the intrinsic electron spin, which we'll call >> ES. Ferromagnetic atoms have unpaired ES, and therefore create a net >> appreciable >> magnetic field outside the atom. Consider two such atoms that are >> magnetically >> unaligned. Now allow the two atoms to align. We know from atomic scale >> experimentation from >> companies such as IBM that during avalanches the magnetic atoms rotate >> in magnetic >> alignment. Typically this can take a few nanoseconds in >> non-electrically conductive magnetic >> materials, and much slower in electrically conductive magnetic >> materials (due to >> eddy currents). Understandably this releases energy. On a larger >> scale, if we hold two >> PM's (Permanent Magnets) that are magnetically unaligned, we know they >> want to rotate so >> they become magnetically aligned. If we allow the two PM's to rotate >> they will gain >> angular kinetic energy as they rotate. In fact, if there's no friction >> the two PM's will >> continue to vibrate back and forth due to momentum and magnetic >> attraction. We gain kinetic >> energy, but also note that the net magnetic field actually increases >> as the two PM's >> rotate and align. According to the above equation, that also >> constitutes energy. > > Interactions between permanent dipoles are conservative, as I've > observed before in this NG. The action of a magnetic field on a > permanent dipole can be described with a potential function. You left out a world of detail. The net magnetic field from two nearby ***aligned*** magnetic dipole moments *increases*. The net magnetic field from two nearby ***opposing*** magnetic dipole moments *decreases*. Also you need to acknowledge the kinetic energy gained when two dipoles rotate to align. Again, if we replace the magnets with air core electromagnets then we *CLEARLY* see it drains energy from the current source. You need to ask yourself why two air core electromagnets that are rotating due to magnetic attraction gain kinetic energy while *increasing* the net magnetic field. You need to understand why that drains energy from the current source. The answer is simple. It drains energy from the current source because there is a gain in KE and net field energy. If we replace the air core electromagnets with permanent magnets we still gain KE and an increase in net magnetic field. So you need to ask yourself where that energy comes from. I've spent far too much time discussing this with QM physicists. They have no idea where the energy comes from once they grasp the issue. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 11:52:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MJqV7m012202; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:52:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MJqOVH012154; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:52:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:52:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: tQMfVC8VM1nOsch6QALWcoupx8q8yL0Zh6CuOz9MRemgiQOfOImrtHnOeYO_lZFbDA0mJhL.zvi.zPup55DVdqTnQ2faDS5z4JKch.4.uyz_rK28dmG0.RRp_OQoNWmSTlOjfBIVT7.LH10- Message-ID: <45B515F4.1000403@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:52:20 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <596127.56067.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <596127.56067.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <46yUkB.A.29C.3XRtFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72186 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > [snip] > > It's certainly complicated; too complicated to > solve easily > > and too complicated to model mentally with a simple > picture. > > Very true! That's why computers are so wonderful. > IMHO the future of science is held > within the computer, as they are great with > mathematics, speed, and memory. Simulations > will break us free from the limitations of the paper > written equations and reveal higher > truths of reality. :-) > > > > [snip] > >> > >> Energy Violation #3: > >> Consider the intrinsic electron spin, which we'll > call > >> ES. Ferromagnetic atoms have unpaired ES, and > therefore create a net > >> appreciable > >> magnetic field outside the atom. Consider two such > atoms that are > >> magnetically > >> unaligned. Now allow the two atoms to align. We > know from atomic scale > >> experimentation from > >> companies such as IBM that during avalanches the > magnetic atoms rotate > >> in magnetic > >> alignment. Typically this can take a few > nanoseconds in > >> non-electrically conductive magnetic > >> materials, and much slower in electrically > conductive magnetic > >> materials (due to > >> eddy currents). Understandably this releases > energy. On a larger > >> scale, if we hold two > >> PM's (Permanent Magnets) that are magnetically > unaligned, we know they > >> want to rotate so > >> they become magnetically aligned. If we allow the > two PM's to rotate > >> they will gain > >> angular kinetic energy as they rotate. In fact, if > there's no friction > >> the two PM's will > >> continue to vibrate back and forth due to momentum > and magnetic > >> attraction. We gain kinetic > >> energy, but also note that the net magnetic field > actually increases > >> as the two PM's > >> rotate and align. According to the above equation, > that also > >> constitutes energy. > > > > Interactions between permanent dipoles are > conservative, as I've > > observed before in this NG. The action of a > magnetic field on a > > permanent dipole can be described with a potential > function. > > You left out a world of detail. The net magnetic field > from two nearby ***aligned*** > magnetic dipole moments *increases*. The net magnetic > field from two nearby ***opposing*** > magnetic dipole moments *decreases*. I am well aware of that. > > Also you need to acknowledge the kinetic energy gained > when two dipoles rotate to align. Yes, I'm well aware of that. As I said in my previous message, the action of a permanent magnetic field on a permanent dipole can be described by a potential function given by the dot product of the dipole and the field: -mu B (sorry, there's no "\cdot" character in flat Ascii.) This single function accounts for both linear forces _and_ torques on the dipole. If you move a permanent dipole around in a fixed (but spatially varying) magnetic field, the forces and torques it feels are given by the gradient of the above potential function. The net energy gained or lost is given by the change in that potential function. When you return the dipole to its starting position (and orientation) the net work done will be zero. Of course, whether both magnets move at once or we nail one down and allow the other to move, the same thing holds, just as in the case of two weights connected by a spring it makes no difference whether we move both at once or just one at a time. > Again, if we replace the magnets with air core > electromagnets then we *CLEARLY* see it > drains energy from the current source. Yup, the analysis is rather different when we use an electromagnet. In that case the work done comes from current in the coil. I did not say this was _simple_. I just said it was conservative. > You need to > ask yourself why two air core > electromagnets that are rotating due to magnetic > attraction gain kinetic energy while > *increasing* the net magnetic field. You need to > understand why that drains energy from > the current source. The answer is simple. It drains > energy from the current source > because there is a gain in KE and net field energy. Exactly, and if you work out the details it balances. > If we replace the air core > electromagnets with permanent magnets we still gain KE > and an increase in net magnetic > field. Yes we do. And in this case, as I already said, the action is conservative; we can't get work out of it. > So you need to ask yourself where that energy > comes from. I'm well aware of that. But you might just as well say, where does the energy "come from" when something falls off a table? In the case of a permanent dipole in a permanent B field, the energy was apparently there all along, in the form of the -mu*B potential energy function. If you want to ask more than that, then you're asking why the electron's B field is quantized, and why its spin can't "slow down", and there certainly is no simple answer to that. But, lacking evidence to the contrary, one can take that much of it as a given and go on from there. Once you've allowed permanent dipoles into the room, the classical E&M theory can handle them without a problem (only the assertion that "magnetic fields do no work" must be modified). > > I've spent far too much time discussing this with QM > physicists. They have no idea where > the energy comes from once they grasp the issue. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 11:59:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MJxSFJ029250; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:59:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MJxPtO029225; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:59:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:59:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=0D6n5MCjQiGm2i5ab3WeaoZo3q1QSRl0Peq6sOJdyGyqvvwBy0h1F4gA5zfetNWFkEIy7UTfdRDqB/XO4fqhHiiOiJEyA1Nmnk4M1/TYOkPJALivkQW0aw8+HSb73e3T1Y13SnvksFDoVJV0zLZJgttHpC2HTl5MujyvMk9GLvA=; X-YMail-OSG: dhCqYVcVM1nJjwU1AND4Rpe_BArh0oJr0nIjbIrvB0Qclk6FpA1VaE1ItVBTPeg72kB6BdpSKQUwIfzW68UGQpO12AHeTvm_QtgeQra51EGcjEGUquo- Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:59:24 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <9cb8r2p07oe0iv9hme7enftepq1k7movom@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <86200.80489.qm@web32814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72187 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Paul's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2007 > 09:05:43 -0800 (PST): > Hi Paul, > [snip] > >If you place a load on > >the both air coils you can collect > >such energy. That's why pure inductors dissipate > zero > >energy; i.e., energy goes in the > >inductor in the form of a magnetic field, but > during > >the other half of the cycle such > >energy goes back to the source. There is more here then meets the eye. A reactance such as an inductance or capacity indeed does return energy to the source on an alternating current input upon collapse of the fields. Here are some former somewhat lengthy speculations: Transcending Reactive vs Real Power Concepts. Sun May 29, 2005 As most of us know the REASON that we cannot simply multiply the voltage times the amperage, (VI); to obtain the power expressed in an inductor placed across AC, is that there is a time lag between the cause and effect; where voltage being the cause, and its amperage being the effect. For the AC inductor, because of this time lag, that for the external AC source we can speculate that if the current were truly 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage, (this often stated premise is not completely true, it depends whether the inductor has a large enough inductive reactance X(L)= 2pi*F*L to form a phase angle near 90 degrees); but if the amperage were near 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage, by the time the AC voltage input has made a complete pulse in one polarity, and thus gone back to its zero crossing point; at that moment in time the amperage in the coil will have reached its maximum, again using the 90 degree phase angle example. Up until this starting point 180 degrees into the AC cycle, a magnetic field from the inductor is established that agrees with its polarity input. But in the third quadrant of the AC cycle, the voltage input reverses polarity, but the current has not yet followed its example, because of the time lag the current is going in the opposite direction then what its voltage source would cause it to act. In the third quadrant then the magnetic field of that inductor is then causing a self induction by virtue of its magnetic field collapse that establishes a polarity OPPOSITE to the polarity of the source. This is why back emf, or a backwards working voltage source established by mistimed magnetic fields exists. The net result of this backward working voltage during portions of the AC cycle is that the forward working voltage does not conduct it's OHM's law amount of amperage, because of this extra effect of AC resistance. We call this AC resistance inductive reactance. The effects of both the actual resistance and its inductive reactance is reffered to as impedance, noted as Z where the effects of both principles are obtained by summing the squares of both quantities, and taking the square root of this result shown as the impedance equation Z= sq rt[R^2+ X(L)^2]. Now some commentators note that because the coils magnetic field establishes its own self induction, we are actually dealing with the summation of two power sources. They explain that because of the storage of energy manifested as a magnetic field, in certain portions of the AC cycle the coils collapsing magnetic field is establishing a polarity opposite to its source, and in terms of the AC source being a generator, that generator as its VI apparent power input also experiences borrowed and returned energy. When the coils magnetic field collapses a portion of the power input is returned to the generator. Now the real amount of energy expeneded on the coil is just its conversion to heat by I^2R heat losses, and the rest is just borrowed and returned energy. The essential question then becomes does this source also act like a banker and charge interest on its borrowed and returned assets? This would seem the sensible thing to do, but perhaps nature doesnt always model mans actions. So we have two aspects, and this is where the third aspect comes into being, where the concept of phase angles comes into play. We have the apparent power input which is just the voltage times the amperage across the load,or (VI) of the generator as the apparent power input. Then we have the real power input which is undeniable because we can measure the heat release as the I^2R quantity. Because we have a load containing reactance, or a reactive load, the difference between the real and apparent power inputs is merely the % of borrowed and returned energies vs real energy output. But we also have a method to compute what this heat release should be by methods of trigonometry. We can draw out the AC voltage and amperage AC cycles, and find out the % portions where they are in agreement, where this portion will be expressed as a cosine angle. The real power input therefore becomes VI* cos( acting phase angle of the inductor), and we conclude that this also equals I^2R as the heat loss. Recall that in trigonometry we have a y coordinant, [expressed as X(L)in phase angles]: where y/radius is the sine quantity of the angle, and conversely x/radius is the cosine. (In trigonmetry we allow the radius of the circle to be the unit 1 to simplify these calculations.) To find the phase angle of an inductor we let the inductive reactance to be the positive y quantity, and the actual resistance R to be the x quantity. But a little more trig is need to find the actual phase angle which can be calculated with any calculator having trig functions. The tangent of the angle is expressed as y/x. So if we have a coil where X(L) and R is both known, the tangent is easily known; it is just X(L)/R, which is also the theoretical Q factor of the coil. But what we NEED to find out is the inverse of this, which will tell us the radians, which can further be reduced to an angle by multiplying by 360 degrees/ 2pi radians, which is the conversion factor to degrees. Suppose I have an inductive reactance 5 times the resistance; what is the phase angle? We know the tangent is merely 5, but this tells us nothing. Instead what we NEED to find out is the answer to the question; the tangent of what amount of radians will give an answer of 5. Thus we use the inverse function, called the co-tangent, or tan^-1 to determine the answer. And tan^-1 (5) = an answer in radians that can be converted to degrees, and this is the method for finding the phase angle. Now if X(L)is very large vs the R quantity of resistance, X((L) forms the y axis, R forms the x axis, and the hypotenus, (ordinarily the radius quantity in trig functions) becomes the impedance Z. We already know by the Pythagorean theorem that the sum of the squares of the right angle triangle sides is equal to the square of the hypotenus, and by then taking the square root of both sides of the equation we reach the same equation for the impedance Z. And if X(L)>> R then X(L)~= Z. The length of the radius and its y reflection are almost equal, but the x reflection as the additive vector is very small compared to the other two quatites by definition since we have initially made the condition X(L) is far greater then R. The x reflection is also the cosine of the phase angle, and it is this no. as a percentage that is used for the real power calculations. Thus with this condition the apparent power will be far greater then the real power. These things are all rudimentary for the electrical engineer. Now we come to electrical resonance, where X(C) forms the negative Y axis, the opposite reactances in series can cancel, leaving R as the predominant factor for conduction, and in this condition then we suspect that now the apparent power will be the same thing as the real power, and the amperage has now come closely in phase with the impressed voltage. However because of a factor known as "internal capacity" we may not always arrive at a conduction that equals ohms law requirements. The depends on the construction of the inductor we are resonating. However a VERY misunderstood thing can happen here. We might assume that since now the apparent power equals the real power, which also occurs in DC circuits after the magnetic field is established, that % wise the generator is no longer having a significant portion of "borrowed and returned" energy allocations. We have cancelled the reactive state of the circuit, so have we not also cancelled the "borrowed and returned" field energies? The generator would seem to indicate so, because the apparent power equals the real power, and we are not seeing differences between those definitions. However in actuality the opposite thing has occured, the borrowed and returned field energies will have gone up q times, even though the generator does not seem to indicate this % wise in its allocations. A simple proof of this is the definition of stored energy for the L and C components. The energy stored in C is defined as [CV^2]/2, and for L it is [LI^2]/2. In series resonance each L and C component developes an internal voltage rise against each other, in opposite directions with respect to each other, so that on the outside of the circuit, the generator only sees this net cancellation. For the C case, since the V term is squared, and we are obtaining series resonant internal voltage rise, the stored energy has gone up Q times, where the acting Q factor is the ratio of the inside voltage rise to the outside voltage source. We then have increased the borrowed and returned energies, but now a different relationship exists. Formerly the energy was borrowed and returned to the generator, but now the borrowed and returned energies only exist between the L and C values... It is literally as if the expanded electric and magnetic field energies were being obtained in resonance for free... But can we use this fact to power another load? That isnt so easy a proposition. If we divert the expanded voltages to another circuit, this in turn destroys the properties of the resonance itself, so that the actual resonant rise of voltage is wiped out. A little over a year ago I set up some circuits where the resonances were obtained from a 3 phase alternator functioning @ 480 hz. These resonances were special in that they were designed to be maximum energy transfer circuits, generally defined as a circuit that drops the open circuit voltage of the source in half, but on the only side of the coin, the maximum amount of power to load is obtained from that generator. Between these 3 AC phases, set up as Delta Series Resonances, (DSR's), the voltage rise q factor of 5 was noted. What this means is that 5 times more amperage is procurred then what exists in the reactive state, and also the internal rise of voltage was 5 times that of the source. Now between these three 120 degrees of voltage rises, the AC was turned into DC by means of full wave rectifications, which because of the poly phased inputs, thus fills up the DC ripple without use of a filter capacity. The load for these DC currents was a 3/8ths inch width of a ferrite block, normally considered an insulator. Now ferrite is actually considered a class of semiconductor, in that it looses resistance with heat. The ferrite in this case gradually grew hot, its resistance decreased phenomenally going from 30,000 ohms to around 7 ohms, until it began to glow on a corner, the temp around 900 degree fahrenheit. Meanwhile the outside coils, where this internal current was obtained from on the rectifications also experienced a drop of current from what existed in its resonant state. The addition of this low ohmic load between the resonances had caused its amperage input to drop, in fact it drops low enough so that only half of the current that the coils would consume in its reactive state was noted. We might say that X(L) of the coils appeared to double. What this also means is that once again we should be dealing with apparent vs real power input ratios. Now the inside load, being DC has no power factor arguments associated with it, but the outside coils do, because they are AC reactances, placed into resonance, and then reduced from resonance by addition of the interphasal load. This load has become a 2nd generation maximum power transfer principle, where the internal impedance or reactance of the outside coil systems have been matched by an equal resistive load. In terms of this Z(int) of the source has been given an equal R(load) in ohmic values, the requirement for maximum energy transfer. The outside spiral coils themselves, constructed as maxium energy tranfer resonances, (METR components), use the same principle in the R(int) of the alternator stator coils equals R(load) of the coils resistance R value. Now in the cited circumstance, the stator lines each serving two phases contains ~ 2.0 -2.4 Amps, and the division into phase currents should reduce this by about 1.7 times the stator line currents. The outer phase currents derived from these stator line currents are somewhat inbalanced, and the pic I took of the power input shows 1.4, .85 and 1 amp currents on this outer triangle, a sum of 3.25 Amps. On the DC current procurred from the outside misphased AC currents I arrive at a sum of 3 DC amps, obtained from this outside AC current oscillation. Both the alternator input voltage and the ferrite DC voltage are about equalized at 17 volts. As such no resonant rise of voltage is taking place, the voltage input is about the same as the voltage output to the load. Now if we average the phases currents to ~ 1.1 amps, with 17 volts across them, the apparent power input is 17* 1.1 = 18.7 watts per phase, or the generator is inputing an apparent power of 56.1 watts. But the REAL power of the inside triangle load being shown by the 900 degree heat of the ferrite is also 17VDC*3A = 51 watts. The coils themselves that lay on the delivery lines to the ferrite have a combined 3 watts heat loss, close to what the apparent power shows itself as, where the combined loads of 51 + 3 watts almost equals the apparent power input of 56 watts. Here is where the kicker comes in; the apparent power in is yeilding almost the same amount as real power out!. We surmise that since no resonant rise of voltage is occuring on the outer triangle coils, that we should treat this as a apparent power input, and not a real one. Now we have about a 84 degree phase angle, made as tan^-!(10), from a situation that started out with a phase angle dictated by the tan^-1(5), from the coil systems having a q of 5. After the load was added the coils appeared to have about double the impedance on their conductions, which is where the 10 figure in tan^-1 estimations comes in. If this were true, the mechanical energy required to turn the alternator should only reflect a real power load of only 10 watts, by the conventional phase angle analysis, but yet we have a bonafide real power load of 5 times this amount! Have we indeed turned an apparent power input into a real one? Perhaps the apparent vs real power arguments do not apply for this special case. What I would like to be able to do is power the alternator with a geared up bicycle gearing rig, and drive the alternator by bicycled leg power. For only a 10 watt power requirement to make 900 degrees, this seems possible with a human energy input. Then I could stick in real resistive power loads, and compare the respective drags for both situations. In any case the above arguments either show that the current electrical phase angle theory is inadequate to explain the above situation, or conversely we have used the "free" field oscillations inherent in resonance to create a situation of overunity. The calculations also show that ~ 6 times the energy transfer occurs in the LC field energy transfers then do the actual real power being inputed as I^2R heat losses on the DSR's themselves, which are just under 1 ohms resistance. Sincerely Harvey D Norris 2006 Postnote; In the ferrite heating phenomenon, we see an example of impedance matching of source with load. The reactance of the coils as delivery lines are balanced by an opposite capacitive reactance equal in ohmic value to the frequency input. At any point in the three phase circuit application to the load, in this case being the ferrite heating effect, we can interpret this load as a resistance rather then a reactance in ohmic values. Now INITIALLY the comparison between the reactance and the resistance of the delivery coils is fairly high at ~ 7/1 ratio. Now essentially we have added a resistance load to a resonant circuit, extracted BETWEEN phasings, and if the resistance of the delivery coils are then neglected as minimal compared to the actual load resistance; what we have essentially done is to add a resistance to a resonant circuit, and in terms of ohms then the load being equal to the reactance on the delivery lines; What the phase angle laws tell us is that when the reactance X(L) and R are equal, this is a functioning 45 degree phase angle. Now the mistake I made above was to assume that the matched impedance as a 7 ohm load; since this cause the reactive current to drop in half, I then made the phase angle calculations as if X(L) were doubled resting in a calculation of the above tan^-1(10)= 84 degree phase angle. However instead of twice the reactance being added to the circuit a resistance equal to the reactance was instead added to the circuit in series which would mean the true phase angle should be closer to a 45 degree angle. So for the above example we should reanalyze things as a 45 degreee phase angle "Now if we average the phases currents to ~ 1.1 amps, with 17 volts across them, the apparent power input is 17* 1.1= 18.7 watts per phase, or the generator is inputing an apparent power of 56.1 watts. But the REAL power of the inside triangle load being shown by the 900 degree heat of the ferrite is also 17VDC*3A = 51 watts. In the above example then we have procurred an extraction of 3.25 Amps from the 17 volt 3 phase alternator, but this 3.25 amps should be measured as a true power output obtained as a 45 degree phase angle. Since the amperage is lagging the voltage I would assume that since cos 45 degrees equal .707, that only .707(56.1 watts) = 39.6 watts were expended as true power input. If this were truly the case for these somewhat sloppy calculations then about 27% more energy is being released in the resonant circuit then is being inputed by phase angle laws. HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 14:23:15 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MMN4vO005148; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:23:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MMN2M5005135; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:23:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:23:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=lSIQGscQBGN6WTOmwb/eN1oeDvDJbGswdgOw5pH6+m+ftWY6jQAa+L2kTtCTdwUkkaxfqg85tAUzvrFw8A4adI1pUJD9sumAJw/BSMaqjwrqYvls4XTK4deDVI+CU/ZssUERhkpwJl4u7K8vaNvpUYyAiERXvvYxonkGKYXyPqI=; X-YMail-OSG: MSzjlc0VM1lK5EbownI9W6p1nBC_Gj3RN_5IDOO4 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:23:00 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <183614.20316.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72188 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Stephen, IMHO this is an interesting topic. Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Paul wrote: >> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> [snip] >> > It's certainly complicated; too complicated to >> solve easily >> > and too complicated to model mentally with a simple >> picture. >> >> Very true! That's why computers are so wonderful. IMHO the future of >> science is held within the computer, as they are great with >> mathematics, speed, and memory. Simulations will break us free from >> the limitations of the paper >> written equations and reveal higher truths of reality. :-) >> >> >> >> [snip] >> >> >> >> Energy Violation #3: >> >> Consider the intrinsic electron spin, which we'll >> call >> >> ES. Ferromagnetic atoms have unpaired ES, and >> therefore create a net >> >> appreciable >> >> magnetic field outside the atom. Consider two such >> atoms that are >> >> magnetically >> >> unaligned. Now allow the two atoms to align. We >> know from atomic scale >> >> experimentation from >> >> companies such as IBM that during avalanches the >> magnetic atoms rotate >> >> in magnetic >> >> alignment. Typically this can take a few >> nanoseconds in >> >> non-electrically conductive magnetic >> >> materials, and much slower in electrically >> conductive magnetic >> >> materials (due to >> >> eddy currents). Understandably this releases >> energy. On a larger >> >> scale, if we hold two >> >> PM's (Permanent Magnets) that are magnetically >> unaligned, we know they >> >> want to rotate so >> >> they become magnetically aligned. If we allow the >> two PM's to rotate >> >> they will gain >> >> angular kinetic energy as they rotate. In fact, if >> there's no friction >> >> the two PM's will >> >> continue to vibrate back and forth due to momentum >> and magnetic >> >> attraction. We gain kinetic >> >> energy, but also note that the net magnetic field >> actually increases >> >> as the two PM's >> >> rotate and align. According to the above equation, >> that also >> >> constitutes energy. >> > >> > Interactions between permanent dipoles are >> conservative, as I've >> > observed before in this NG. The action of a >> magnetic field on a >> > permanent dipole can be described with a potential >> function. >> >> You left out a world of detail. The net magnetic field >> from two nearby ***aligned*** magnetic dipole moments *increases*. The >> net magnetic >> field from two nearby ***opposing*** magnetic dipole moments *decreases*. > > I am well aware of that. > >> >> Also you need to acknowledge the kinetic energy gained >> when two dipoles rotate to align. > > Yes, I'm well aware of that. > > As I said in my previous message, the action of a permanent magnetic > field on a permanent dipole can be described by a potential function > given by the dot product of the dipole and the field: > > -mu B > > (sorry, there's no "\cdot" character in flat Ascii.) > > This single function accounts for both linear forces _and_ torques on > the dipole. If you move a permanent dipole around in a fixed (but > spatially varying) magnetic field, the forces and torques it feels are > given by the gradient of the above potential function. The net energy > gained or lost is given by the change in that potential function. When > you return the dipole to its starting position (and orientation) the net > work done will be zero. > > Of course, whether both magnets move at once or we nail one down and > allow the other to move, the same thing holds, just as in the case of > two weights connected by a spring it makes no difference whether we move > both at once or just one at a time. > >> Again, if we replace the magnets with air core >> electromagnets then we *CLEARLY* see it drains energy from the current >> source. > > Yup, the analysis is rather different when we use an electromagnet. In > that case the work done comes from current in the coil. > > I did not say this was _simple_. I just said it was conservative. > >> You need to >> ask yourself why two air core electromagnets that are rotating due to >> magnetic >> attraction gain kinetic energy while *increasing* the net magnetic >> field. You need to >> understand why that drains energy from the current source. The answer >> is simple. It drains >> energy from the current source because there is a gain in KE and net >> field energy. > > Exactly, and if you work out the details it balances. > >> If we replace the air core electromagnets with permanent magnets we >> still gain KE >> and an increase in net magnetic field. > > Yes we do. And in this case, as I already said, the action is > conservative; we can't get work out of it. > >> So you need to ask yourself where that energy >> comes from. > > I'm well aware of that. Good, then you do acknowledge there is *real work* being done while two magnetic dipole moments rotate toward alignment. > But you might just as well say, where does the > energy "come from" when something falls off a table? There is a big difference? In the magnet example there's a way of replicating the magnetic dipole moment by using an air coil. IOW, we have technology that generates magnetic fields. We know it requires energy to create a magnetic field. We know it requires energy when two coils accelerate toward each other due to their own attraction-- essentially two magnetic fields overlapping to some degree. As far as something falling from a table ... I'm not aware of gravity field generating device to measure the consumed energy. If there was such an electro-gravity device then we could measure the consumed power from the source while some mass (object) is accelerating toward the device. :-) Perhaps it would or would not consume energy from the source. > In the case of a permanent dipole in a permanent B field, the energy was > apparently there all along, in the form of the -mu*B potential energy > function. Again that's not the point! Energy may be in different forms, but energy is energy regardless if it is potential or kinetic energy. Point being that energy is *indeed* being added to kinetic and field energy, but we cannot point to any source and say, "Yeah, that's where it is definitely coming from." We can assume it comes from within the electron or whatever is attached to the electron. For all we know there could be some unknown higher dimensional aspect to reality-- a sea of unknown energy that sustains elementary particles, perhaps akin to how the ocean may sustain a hurricane. I want to know from where that energy comes from. Where is that source? > If you want to ask more than that, then you're asking why the > electron's B field is quantized, I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but understandably that's a QM thing. I very much question many QM concepts such as the so-called photon. On one of my lists is a relatively simple radio frequency experiment to see if the sub-photon exists. > and why its spin can't "slow down", Ahh, now we talking. I've asked many QM physicists if spin may slow down. Some don't know how to answer such a question. Most say "No." The more honest ones say they don't know and encourage a test to verify. Another option I've tossed around is perhaps ZPE or some unknown sea of energy. Another option is perhaps there's a decrease in electron velocity. The electron must always be in motion, correct? Therefore, there's always room for the electron to slow down. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 14:34:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MMYJVH012849; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:34:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MMYHuH012821; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:34:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:34:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=scJo7DaAq6ldfpm/cwyV+VRdzy9u/QfBd/eyUMyxy32PNF/cjfeoZ6hJVr3jnGOOngjIpS+EButizMW2i/2a8p7XjBfEw5ptSLQJUIcfqUSTxNYVbxgsD7AtjltNlPWQ6emZpyqVjhCt0qGaXSXxyL8qCQ8UbVDYVZCI9p1uRPc=; X-YMail-OSG: x3XgclsVM1kgich6AJiER0GLsPDM7ujbe0LZWXDF Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:34:13 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <327654.78274.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72189 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harvey Norris wrote: > Transcending Reactive vs Real Power Concepts. > Sun May 29, 2005 > As most of us know the REASON that we cannot simply > multiply the voltage times the amperage, (VI) [snip] That's a nice detailed explanation of inductors. Although I snipped it due to text length. At any moment in time may know how much energy a pure inductance is consuming from the source or adding to the source by multiply V * I. During the first half cycle of a sine wave the inductor consumes energy. During the last half of the cycle the inductor returns the energy. Thus, the reason current and voltage are 90 degrees out of phase in a pure inductor. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 15:50:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MNoPTD009674; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:50:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MNoNsj009658; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:50:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:50:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=P3dZNZuX8YkDBIPQYrsP0aR0GPtzpXTSXwmdBvOX/+ocOXqRCCutn+oylXZP8NYhK4UoKP3J9DAXojbcajj5TDAld7bVFN2tRECFFdX+h8fgZz2VNjzhroxKvhu7hyBMxpu9W6vmaGFQocuwXeDxXpq/WfzTKkW8zEdVVpMobtw= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:50:21 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery In-Reply-To: <45B4E6A7.4090408@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45B4E6A7.4090408@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72190 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/22/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Wrong. To put it bluntly, GM will be the last auto company on the planet > to find the cutting edge of anything new and promising - at least if > they cannot control the company at the Board level. They are a dying > giant on a downward spiral to oblivion, which is a sad thing to see, as > the trend is indicative of how the USA is becoming a second-rate auto > producer drop-by-drop. Chinese torture for the All-American ego. Excellent post, Jones. I could not agree with you more. BTW, tomorrow is the big day . . . meeting of the M International BoD. Contract in hand! However, I will have to totally shut up about the Sprain Magmo . . . at least until PoC. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 15:55:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MNt8FT010924; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:55:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MNt7vI010909; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:55:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:55:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JqYWZX7LZDHeFZtf7E3mEcOmRqMeIK+Llbx3sjnaw2QkGgAgcWXQ5m4crYNc+rFtANCB03WZ5XfiPff2zTD9a3WV8LX0jrXwP2oC5c8w4VO/gHqtJ9GKAIyWkLwM9UlniM78DhZKfeSanR41wEgMkPb0Qm8A0AMSxn5CHuy1nDk= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:55:04 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-Reply-To: <45B4DD69.1040104@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <324480.34086.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <45B4DD69.1040104@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72191 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/22/07, Jones Beene wrote: > FWIW - Hal Puthoff seems to have a pretty good mathematical > understanding of this, but one suspects that is not easy for him or > anyone else to put that into words - other than three-letter acronyms. Sign in Marshall SFC, Huntsville (true story): "No more TLAs" (Three Letter Acronyms) :-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 15:57:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0MNvBHD023601; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:57:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0MNv9ht023557; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:57:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:57:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=G91CUuAM4aSdOwc1Pxiz7pFORkDbmQjxYB7Ki0YLbxWTYtW4dG/UMPZnjfKp+O7w0KTkGrrLr+j9pHAUdM6gXi587vwhKLPF9Xj/WKLHLk0VGihCxurp4FkOn1ZxZrjR7BGfXRxVL62tA4MhFRJYJR0vlSDz4fx5vPUrGn7uhTo= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:57:05 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-Reply-To: <856436.64548.qm@web62411.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <856436.64548.qm@web62411.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72192 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/22/07, Paul wrote:> > Where does he believe > the energy comes from? Simple answer: the other side of zero. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 16:18:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0N0IGKL002436; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 16:18:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0N0IBaN002378; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 16:18:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 16:18:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=URZFukrKEq5V2hJhK2kupUsT+4QgJQtNY7N12cA/2kfvGQuqTdZVo9b7dp6DVdE4RGoTOcNH61R/mDLM4lIQdySd+HmUalnAbak8v0msytVLLAj5E9JeNNwfUXB4y4J0siUtD0LT7KOODauIMf3rV+tDtJDPjRax3FRyOH2cmvI= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 19:18:09 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72193 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: The Circular Magnetic Gradient Status: O X-Status: Let's suppose you have a circular magnetic gradient of 1 gauss per degree which delivers 1 Nm of torque to a rotor. Further suppose that, at the discontinuity of the gradient, you kick the rotor of a motor past the "sticky spot" with a mechanical force. Now you increase the gradient by a factor of 100. Windage and bearing resistance do not change. How long and hard must you kick? Do not forget to consider that the revolutions of the motor are what deliver work and the kick is shorter with faster rotation. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 20:07:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0N46oGb025834; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:06:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0N46m6s025815; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:06:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:06:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45B589D0.90606@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 23:06:40 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <183614.20316.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <183614.20316.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72194 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Hello Stephen, > > IMHO this is an interesting topic. I won't argue with that! If you're ever in a room full of physicists and you want to start an argument, ask if magnetic fields ever "do work". Then, after you've gotten a few of them to say, loudly, "No, never!", ask what "does the work" when an electron (with its permanent dipole) moves in a magnetic field. So far I've found just one real physicist who actually came right out and said "Yes, the magnetic field does "do work"". OTOH I've run across statements by a (different) well known physicist that made just about zero sense in this area (I won't mention his name; he's a good guy even if he did miss the dock by a few feet on this question), and I've run across textbook sections and articles on this topic that were completely off the wall. There is a lot of misinformation floating around. Anyhow I've about shot my bolt on this. I did some very simple analysis on the problem a while back using magnetostatics. That was enough to convince me to keep a tight grip on my wallet when someone claims they have an OU magnetic motor, but it was far from rigorous. I'm certainly no expert, and I don't even pretend to understand quantum mechanics. [ ... ] > > > >> So you need to ask yourself where that energy > >> comes from. > > > > I'm well aware of that. > > > Good, then you do acknowledge there is *real work* > being done while two magnetic dipole > moments rotate toward alignment. Absolutely! The "magnetic fields do no work" mantra fails. It is false. > > But you might just as well say, where does the > > energy "come from" when something falls off a > table? > > There is a big difference? In the magnet example > there's a way of replicating the > magnetic dipole moment by using an air coil. IOW, we > have technology that generates > magnetic fields. We know it requires energy to create > a magnetic field. We know it > requires energy when two coils accelerate toward each > other due to their own attraction-- > essentially two magnetic fields overlapping to some > degree. It appears that in terms of accounting for the energy, one must treat permanent magnetic fields and fields from currents differently. The permanent ones are just a "given" -- they may or may not contain energy but if they do, we can't get it out. The ones associated with currents are a different story; we pump energy in when they're formed and we get it back out when they collapse. > As far as something falling > from a table ... I'm not aware of gravity field > generating device to measure the consumed > energy. If there was such an electro-gravity device > then we could measure the consumed > power from the source while some mass (object) is > accelerating toward the device. :-) > Perhaps it would or would not consume energy from the > source. > > > > > In the case of a permanent dipole in a permanent B > field, the energy was > > apparently there all along, in the form of the > -mu*B potential energy > > function. > > Again that's not the point! Energy may be in > different forms, but energy is energy > regardless if it is potential or kinetic energy. > Point being that energy is *indeed* > being added to kinetic and field energy, but we cannot > point to any source and say, "Yeah, > that's where it is definitely coming from." We can > assume it comes from within the > electron or whatever is attached to the electron. For > all we know there could be some > unknown higher dimensional aspect to reality-- a sea > of unknown energy that sustains > elementary particles, perhaps akin to how the ocean > may sustain a hurricane. I want to > know from where that energy comes from. Where is that > source? :-) I have no idea. I don't know what causes the field of a permanent dipole, either. I can write a potential function for its behavior in the field of a permanent magnet, and that convinces me that a permanent magnet motor can't be OU. But I can't tell you where the energy is before the magnet starts to move. I also can't answer this one: If two permanent magnets accelerate toward each other, does the gravitational field of the system increase as a result? (Hmmm, maybe I'll post that to sci.physics.relativity -- should be good for a few confused responses, anyway...) > > If you want to ask more than that, then you're > asking why the > > electron's B field is quantized, > > I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but > understandably that's a QM thing. I very much > question many QM concepts such as the so-called > photon. On one of my lists is a > relatively simple radio frequency experiment to see if > the sub-photon exists. > > > > > and why its spin can't "slow down", > > Ahh, now we talking. I've asked many QM physicists if > spin may slow down. Some don't know > how to answer such a question. Most say "No." The > more honest ones say they don't know > and encourage a test to verify. As far as I know, according to current theory it can't slow down. It can't speed up, either. It has just one speed. In fact it seems kind of inaccurate to call it "spin" at all, but that's just my opinion and I already admitted I don't understand quantum mechanics. > > Another option I've tossed around is perhaps ZPE or > some unknown sea of energy. > > Another option is perhaps there's a decrease in > electron velocity. The electron must > always be in motion, correct? Therefore, there's > always room for the electron to slow down. I don't think so. The linear motion of the electron is not at issue; its dipole, which is providing the energy here, is due entirely to its "spin". > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 20:54:31 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0N4sNpL032139; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:54:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0N4sL04032129; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:54:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:54:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 5cV2pvYVM1kUMWmiBovDWm7tcaGAGhBaOTqDvhso4ZPAVjQsYmwoASmNaJFQ5MLXSpL78L_ZDY35yVRcCePKqO.x2ypLt5CONHHFcnP6BXeNw7HgHZXhVzcfSlmMaT3IHz6NIf_aizlVA94- Message-ID: <45B594FA.5090208@pobox.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 23:54:18 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Circular Magnetic Gradient References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-F8VcB.A.91H.8TZtFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72195 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Let's suppose you have a circular magnetic gradient of 1 gauss per > degree which delivers 1 Nm of torque to a rotor. Further suppose > that, at the discontinuity of the gradient, you kick the rotor of a > motor past the "sticky spot" with a mechanical force. Could you use a flywheel to provide the "kick"? > Now you increase the gradient by a factor of 100. Windage and bearing > resistance do not change. How long and hard must you kick? Well, if the gradient is 100 times stronger, then the "wall" you need to climb to get past the sticky spot would presumably be 100 times higher, so you'd need 100 times the torque to get it over the "bump". So I would think, anyway. Of course you gain 100 times as much energy going "down the hill" before you get to the bump, too. > > Do not forget to consider that the revolutions of the motor are what > deliver work and the kick is shorter with faster rotation. True; but the energy it takes to get over the bump doesn't depend on the speed of rotation. It's the same whether you do it fast or slow. Similarly, the energy you get out going "down" the gradient before you get to the bump will be the same, no matter how fast the motor is turning. Power goes as torque * rpm, because the energy per _revolution_ depends only on the torque -- it's something like 2*pi*tau. Net energy out during 1 minute is the energy produced per revolution, times the number of revolutions turned in a minute. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 21:19:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0N5JS0o026396; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:19:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0N5JQ9p026381; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:19:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:19:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:19:04 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 23 Jan 2007 05:19:12 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0N5JEOM026335 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72196 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Geothermal desalination Status: O X-Status: Hi, Where "hot rocks" are available as a source of geothermal power, and these are situated near the coast, salt water could be used as the water source. This would produce steam to drive turbines, which could then also be condensed into fresh water. In short rather than be an additional burden on fresh water supplies, the geothermal power source would be an added source of fresh water. Of course this would result in salt being deposited deep underground in hot rock layers, so study would be required to ensure that this salt wouldn't end up contaminating existing fresh water aquifers. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 22:11:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0N6B97w011530; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:11:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0N6B7RG011519; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:11:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:11:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Subject: Re: [Vo]: Geothermal desalination To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 06:10:13 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72197 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My mind is stimulated by the idea. There are a lot of minerals in the underground rocks. Sea salt and underground salts could be continuously or periodically carried to the the surface dissolved and suspended in superheated water which would be evaporated on the surface leaving the salts. A pipe bottom water jet directing device could apply cold water to the underground rock, fracturing it, expanding the access to hot underground rock surface. Aloha, Charlie There is so much volume on this list that I think I need to send back a reference: Reference: On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:19:04 +1100 Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Hi, > >Where "hot rocks" are available as a source of geothermal >power, and these are >situated near the coast, salt water could be used as the >water source. This >would produce steam to drive turbines, which could then >also be condensed into >fresh water. In short rather than be an additional burden >on fresh water >supplies, the geothermal power source would be an added >source of fresh water. >Of course this would result in salt being deposited deep >underground in hot rock >layers, so study would be required to ensure that this >salt wouldn't end up >contaminating existing fresh water aquifers. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 22 22:12:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0N6CG5e011770; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:12:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0N6CBhk011733; Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:12:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:12:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Circular Magnetic Gradient Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:12:08 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 23 Jan 2007 06:12:08 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0N6C9Ou011712 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72198 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Mon, 22 Jan 2007 19:18:09 -0500: Hi Terry, [snip] >Let's suppose you have a circular magnetic gradient of 1 gauss per >degree which delivers 1 Nm of torque to a rotor. Further suppose >that, at the discontinuity of the gradient, you kick the rotor of a >motor past the "sticky spot" with a mechanical force. > >Now you increase the gradient by a factor of 100. Windage and bearing >resistance do not change. How long and hard must you kick? > >Do not forget to consider that the revolutions of the motor are what >deliver work and the kick is shorter with faster rotation. > >Terry If the motor is unloaded, it's own inertia should carry it past the sticky spot if it is OU (assuming zero friction). This is because as it accelerates all the energy is stored in the rotor as kinetic energy. If this isn't enough to get it past the sticky spot, then it isn't OU. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 00:04:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0N84F5d002784; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:04:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0N84EdR002768; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:04:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:04:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <023801c73ec5$1137fdb0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <183614.20316.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <45B589D0.90606@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 09:04:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0N84C2P002751 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72199 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 5:06 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics ... >> Good, then you do acknowledge there is *real work* >> being done while two magnetic dipole >> moments rotate toward alignment. > > Absolutely! The "magnetic fields do no work" mantra fails. It is false. Forgive me for jumping into the discussion without having followed it all. "Magnetic fields do no work" wouldn't make sense anyway. Work is done by forces. It's the _force on a moving charge due to the magnetic field_ qv × B which does no work (I don't suppose you dispute that?), not the magnetic field per se. ... >> Another option is perhaps there's a decrease in >> electron velocity. The electron must >> always be in motion, correct? Therefore, there's >> always room for the electron to slow down. > > I don't think so. The linear motion of the electron is not at issue; > its dipole, which is providing the energy here, is due entirely to its > "spin". Well not quite entirely, the current loop consisting in the orbiting motion has got to contribute _some_ magnetic dipole moment to the atom, however small this effect may be compared to that of the rotating motion. Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 05:55:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NDtaKv021696; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 05:55:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NDtXuO021678; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 05:55:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 05:55:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro WebUser Interface v.4.1.8 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:54:43 +0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72200 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Biomanufacturing 070123 Status: O X-Status: I expect that a diode array / lighting system with appropriate control of internal and external diode arrays, resistive heaters, and inside lamps would maintain the culture pool of coral larva, algae, or metal gathering microorganisms with the correct light at the correct temperature cheaply. I expect a simple diode array / resistive heater to move heat via electrical energy at little cost from the diode array even if that device is in the coldest part of the system to the resistive heater even if that device is the warmest part of the system. The synthetic environment may be deep in the ocean at high pressure. CO2 and O2 may be pumped down to the culture pools. I changed my mind about repeating the earlier comments. Aloha, Cjarlie From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 06:02:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NE2lFB008667; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 06:02:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NE2iRi008653; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 06:02:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 06:02:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=FVGaQxqRbUR+vOvYCCN7m3AH5EI19j14fKLMaXQKD4KJ50eU+0PJe7qLOiJU0Tn9dEIs5YbgUHYAl60k27ziqJH5tU+m1Fo0v4fDBMdN7gBIQx757+u19x844EXPdZjxENMx4q+9+iiIxuUtbnAblCCDZdKu0zLGXSGl9kmVnXU= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 09:02:43 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Circular Magnetic Gradient In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72201 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/23/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > If the motor is unloaded, it's own inertia should carry it past the sticky spot > if it is OU (assuming zero friction). This is because as it accelerates all the > energy is stored in the rotor as kinetic energy. If this isn't enough to get it > past the sticky spot, then it isn't OU. Precisely my conclusion last night. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 06:30:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NEUQtR025561; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 06:30:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NEUOJv025533; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 06:30:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 06:30:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: dBD8jMkVM1kZex5Yo.S79y6dyqzRhBe23M1t.Cnp2YBbQ0le8_SWBxiJ1dW0SE523g8eEsmGaLUBjg8U2aW_PDMo29WYQN6uXQ77jNgsQdg9WR.BI6b7ofWEBA.8SEIhWpKvhPap6TQl4Q-- Message-ID: <45B61BFC.7040808@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 09:30:20 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <183614.20316.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <45B589D0.90606@pobox.com> <023801c73ec5$1137fdb0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <023801c73ec5$1137fdb0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72202 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > To: Sent: Tuesday, January > 23, 2007 5:06 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using > *standard* physics > > > ... >>> Good, then you do acknowledge there is *real work* being done >>> while two magnetic dipole moments rotate toward alignment. >> Absolutely! The "magnetic fields do no work" mantra fails. It is >> false. > > Forgive me for jumping into the discussion without having followed it > all. "Magnetic fields do no work" wouldn't make sense anyway. Work is > done by forces. It's the _force on a moving charge due to the > magnetic field_ qv × B which does no work (I don't suppose you > dispute that?), not the magnetic field per se. Yes, of course. The way I've generally seen it stated, though (particularly during arguments) is "Magnetic fields do no work", even though that's imprecise. And then, of course, people take that imprecise statement which actually was talking about the Lorentz force law for moving charges, and they try to apply it to "prove" that permanent magnets acting on each other must "do no work". And no doubt some number of amateurs in this area are confused about what causes the field of a permanent magnet, just as I was before someone on Vortex pointed out to me that it primarily results from spin dipoles. > > ... >>> Another option is perhaps there's a decrease in electron >>> velocity. The electron must always be in motion, correct? >>> Therefore, there's always room for the electron to slow down. >> I don't think so. The linear motion of the electron is not at >> issue; its dipole, which is providing the energy here, is due >> entirely to its "spin". > > Well not quite entirely, the current loop consisting in the orbiting > motion has got to contribute _some_ magnetic dipole moment to the > atom, however small this effect may be compared to that of the > rotating motion. Yes, that's true. I don't know what the story is with orbital dipole moments -- orbital behavior is also quantized, so it's not clear that an "orbiting" electron can "slow down" any more than its "spin rate" can decrease. OTOH the energy in the field of an orbital dipole was presumably "invested" when the compound was formed and is retrieved when the compound breaks up, unlike the spin dipole, which seems to be truly permanent. > > Michel > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 08:18:46 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NGIb8F022428; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:18:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NGIaOh022396; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:18:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:18:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=OkcVfLJn6Vnks8zx/iWvD2qN0lWnwGoMV9uIQ7H07ck2uwSOT+Nqv9whvVvFBREAYe/FYZScGmwTq/eFV965yndLRfboMc6gRiAg1xFpz8isTJ2S4xUyG3vtSLDvTdgPtc3PW0rfNNNCqOL7JPzgDqhPVX2P0BrvY+Ib0h9C7nY= ; X-YMail-OSG: WWxSbkIVM1k05Uo__Q2pBqqVuLGKTPvnK5samhLSyJ6glW1kTt1mJ4u_SGEBMef1dg.tcAqvqw-- Message-ID: <45B63555.4010006@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:18:29 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72203 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Circular Magnetic Gradient Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Precisely my conclusion last night. Well, not to repeat the obvious, but that would eliminate the need for an electromagnet at all... correct? ... OTOH providing "just" a flywheel for continuity would not be enough unless it were geared way up -but- then friction of gearing would bite into any gain. However ... if the single spiral was bifurcated so that you have two spiral ramps per every 360 degree revolution, and then at the same time, you use a rotor with three arms instead of two, then you will have six "power strokes" per cycle (one every 30 degrees) hopefully with no need for the electromagnet.... ...as the ungeared flywheel can more easily push the arm through (a fraction of) 60 degrees unimpeded then through (the same fraction of) 180 degrees ?? This 'formula' obviously can be taken to the spatial limits of the circumference, with (x)ramps and (x+1) arms - so long as the rotor arm has more (or less) spokes then the number of ramps to provide an offset of the sticky-spot, but one suspects that if the 3/2 version of the formula does not work, then higher subdivisions will fail also... The bottom line being that if there is OU potential it probably gets back to the Aspden effect (circular polarization of the aether) as much as it does for the extraction of energy from magnets. The magnets would just preserve the angular momentum of the initial mass, but the Aspden effect would effectively decrease the "friction" of aether, which is far more than air-friction apparently -- so that the net result would be self-power (but with little overage). Hmm ... he muses .... what am I missing (other than 2LoT) and why didn't Aspden do this (other than he failed to report his failure)? ... or else he could not afford to spend (or could not find a source for) the necessary $5-10k worth (or whatever they must cost) of specialty NIBs... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 08:40:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NGeDk7001698; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:40:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NGeBV6001677; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:40:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:40:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=vrAw9iT9K7VtscbEt9bUfmUiu8yWxYfHG0cm6L3IIwDswsNKZBUxTZMOifYeaQ8aoFHzMtwMD5LkugMpOaSThWfsErRx25N1D+3awmFNj+fPq3zAoPfHZOv6oeAbake27HBDGp9iLCB97XRwqL0SAX+EZZedh4M9QmRm6bZ/+F0= ; X-YMail-OSG: 3PZXEj8VM1m8z.iG.JhbvPAUFt_SYe84pQlfv5Gdkag1joBZnAMu2qC_euW7tbx3xGNfiAo25LkWZZq0h5rUMBfuWTcupzECKllqpoq2PLz6TtaSdqTwiPD43wBRLRI- Message-ID: <45B63A63.5020100@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:40:03 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45B63555.4010006@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45B63555.4010006@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72204 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Circular Magnetic Gradient Status: O X-Status: > six "power strokes" per cycle (one every 30 degrees) oops ...every 60 degrees instead of every 30 degree... but it doesn't change the general drift of the suggestion From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 08:43:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NGh89N005932; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:43:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NGh6KL005912; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:43:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:43:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=oFfdolApOI0Ha20XgGfsVE06iJVvjM42iwDf29ffkP9QoDWwGLO76CsjB7TbpFdnLNXovmq3Px8/ov/X7+2w4OwbzQH/DbELv2on9/NlNfxUflLGiAgHdDjxgyGVOvT2o2DUYiXE81NN0mzkriKRFL1yPOAsmRYstVo2Qf2cmVo=; X-YMail-OSG: 9M827RkVM1mVvZWZ5rYyf6oXClK2qNyxnOIdFpP7yHc.stucNYIwS3MckkEx2CXMGw-- Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:43:04 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <459756.31299.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72205 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Paul wrote: >> >> So you need to ask yourself where that energy >> >> comes from. >> > >> > I'm well aware of that. >> >> >> Good, then you do acknowledge there is *real work* >> being done while two magnetic dipole moments rotate toward alignment. > > Absolutely! The "magnetic fields do no work" mantra fails. It is false. I wonder why so many physicists still cling to such a false idea that the B-field does no work. >> > But you might just as well say, where does the >> > energy "come from" when something falls off a >> table? >> >> There is a big difference? In the magnet example >> there's a way of replicating the magnetic dipole moment by using an >> air coil. IOW, we >> have technology that generates magnetic fields. We know it requires >> energy to create >> a magnetic field. We know it requires energy when two coils accelerate >> toward each >> other due to their own attraction-- essentially two magnetic fields >> overlapping to some >> degree. > > It appears that in terms of accounting for the energy, one must treat > permanent magnetic fields and fields from currents differently. It's interesting electron spin is in units of Ampere Meters^2. And what's a current carrying wire loop? It's current flowing in a wire, and the diameter of wire has area. > The permanent ones are just a "given" -- they may or may not contain energy > but if they do, we can't get it out. The ones associated with currents > are a different story; we pump energy in when they're formed and we get > it back out when they collapse. Who knows, perhaps one day we'll learn to get the energy in both cases. Perhaps that's what Steorn accomplished. To within experimental error evidence indicates the charge radius of the electron is found to be zero. IOW, measure twice as close to that so-called point charge and the E-field doubles. According to QM the E-field goes to infinity, as the electron is claimed to have no physical extend beyond the Poynting vector. That's a whole lot of energy (infinite) stored in that tiny little particle, LOL. How odd is that. >> As far as something falling from a table ... I'm not aware of gravity >> field >> generating device to measure the consumed energy. If there was such >> an electro-gravity device >> then we could measure the consumed power from the source while some >> mass (object) is >> accelerating toward the device. :-) Perhaps it would or would not >> consume energy from the >> source. >> >> >> >> > In the case of a permanent dipole in a permanent B >> field, the energy was >> > apparently there all along, in the form of the >> -mu*B potential energy >> > function. >> >> Again that's not the point! Energy may be in >> different forms, but energy is energy regardless if it is potential or >> kinetic energy. Point being that energy is *indeed* being added to >> kinetic and field energy, but we cannot >> point to any source and say, "Yeah, that's where it is definitely >> coming from." We can >> assume it comes from within the electron or whatever is attached to >> the electron. For >> all we know there could be some unknown higher dimensional aspect to >> reality-- a sea >> of unknown energy that sustains elementary particles, perhaps akin to >> how the ocean >> may sustain a hurricane. I want to know from where that energy comes >> from. Where is that >> source? > > :-) I have no idea. > > I don't know what causes the field of a permanent dipole, either. > > I can write a potential function for its behavior in the field of a > permanent magnet, and that convinces me that a permanent magnet motor > can't be OU. But I can't tell you where the energy is before the magnet > starts to move. > > I also can't answer this one: If two permanent magnets accelerate > toward each other, does the gravitational field of the system increase > as a result? (Hmmm, maybe I'll post that to sci.physics.relativity -- > should be good for a few confused responses, anyway...) You mean sci.physics.relativity.pub? I'd like to know where physicists such as Ed Witten hang out online. :-) >> > If you want to ask more than that, then you're >> asking why the >> > electron's B field is quantized, >> >> I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but >> understandably that's a QM thing. I very much question many QM >> concepts such as the so-called >> photon. On one of my lists is a relatively simple radio frequency >> experiment to see if >> the sub-photon exists. >> >> >> >> > and why its spin can't "slow down", >> >> Ahh, now we talking. I've asked many QM physicists if >> spin may slow down. Some don't know how to answer such a question. >> Most say "No." The >> more honest ones say they don't know and encourage a test to verify. > > As far as I know, according to current theory it can't slow down. It > can't speed up, either. It has just one speed. In fact it seems kind > of inaccurate to call it "spin" at all, but that's just my opinion and I > already admitted I don't understand quantum mechanics. > > > >> >> Another option I've tossed around is perhaps ZPE or >> some unknown sea of energy. >> >> Another option is perhaps there's a decrease in >> electron velocity. The electron must always be in motion, correct? >> Therefore, there's >> always room for the electron to slow down. > > I don't think so. The linear motion of the electron is not at issue; > its dipole, which is providing the energy here, is due entirely to its > "spin". Yes, understandably, but I'm just trying to come up with ideas to meet the demands of conservation of energy. I'm sure there must be some genius QM physicists out there that have an answer. So far haven't met any with an answer, but I would expect some silly answer such as, "Oh yeah, the energy comes at the cost of information. The probability of knowing the electrons location decreases." ;-) Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 08:48:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NGm7Q8009537; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:48:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NGm5Lx009515; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:48:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:48:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <20070123164801.16377.qmail@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=zmJYbQlVKmf4i4tbNArpZDfdgrloWHKgXBjyMbfYA1Wu56AGS6rbDvL7egLVxoOlcla5wzN1l7WDL0RQHGE2GIU2KIMQ33uG0sgg/cTLLJrhLzcnzhyr6TmTR1DFbk1SimGbnbmeT+3lS92VD2rrSgDhLL1zvHF2z7Sss6jQhx4=; X-YMail-OSG: oVcw1yAVM1kv4hYjDYq6Ssejzbr2h5Avnk_gvx1F Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:48:01 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72206 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 5:06 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > > ... >>> Good, then you do acknowledge there is *real work* >>> being done while two magnetic dipole >>> moments rotate toward alignment. >> Absolutely! The "magnetic fields do no work" mantra fails. It is false. > > Forgive me for jumping into the discussion without having followed it all. "Magnetic fields do no work" wouldn't make sense anyway. Work is done by forces. It's the _force on a moving charge due to the magnetic field_ qv × B which does no work (I don't suppose you dispute that?), not the magnetic field per se. > > ... >>> Another option is perhaps there's a decrease in >>> electron velocity. The electron must >>> always be in motion, correct? Therefore, there's >>> always room for the electron to slow down. >> I don't think so. The linear motion of the electron is not at issue; >> its dipole, which is providing the energy here, is due entirely to its >> "spin". > > Well not quite entirely, the current loop consisting in the orbiting motion has got to contribute _some_ magnetic dipole moment to the atom, however small this effect may be compared to that of the rotating motion. That's very true. Most of the field in ferromagnetic atoms comes from intrinsic electron spin, not orbital spin. For example, in Alnico 5 94% comes from intrinsic electron spin. In Sm2Co17 63% from intrinsic electron spin. Paramagnetic materials is another story, but it's relatively weak. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 10:12:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NIBvYf028241; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:11:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NIBuOo028230; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:11:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:11:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OhIkl7zDO2Peg6VsI9uqZbGcgfVrNvaK1F3MLh1/KKYBVE3kF2B/gq8Sne6oZQzModhbcXVx7nL6hmr9OuGPXvn8QgThfFKgv5a43LOx73NG6Wl/Lksyfg6YLfL4K5cmts8GgLcJPtUzDA7ilsqJRwzo+eMFV+j+T+E77HHuT6w= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:11:53 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The Circular Magnetic Gradient In-Reply-To: <45B63555.4010006@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45B63555.4010006@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72207 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/23/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Precisely my conclusion last night. > > > Well, not to repeat the obvious, but that would eliminate the need for > an electromagnet at all... correct? Well, as of today, I am officially under contract in addition to my NDA; but, I can tell you that you sound like you were a fly on the wall at the Unitholder's meeting today. :-) Re Aspden, good question. When Paul bought his neos in 2000, he paid almost $300 ea. Today you can get better mags for $50. However, that trend is reversing thanks to China protecting it's REE resources. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 10:18:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NIII0t002285; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:18:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NIIHnI002267; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:18:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:18:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=jPtAl9qEw6TFqsySQOiSekG9ao2klxartbhnH3zS6bfLuaTwijvVfpTdt4j7G+LHkqnxkFdaAWnTffLLlQu31bXswCoTzTistmyH7c5XMj9/e+aW++3l7nUSlTq6UaNaFJ8R0BqUepQ8d/GjZy6cLS56k794cgQRe9kpvVLe2o8= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:18:15 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Circular Magnetic Gradient In-Reply-To: <45B594FA.5090208@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45B594FA.5090208@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72208 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/22/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > True; but the energy it takes to get over the bump doesn't depend on the > speed of rotation. It's the same whether you do it fast or slow. This is the error in your reasoning. Assuming the kick is an EM pulse generating, say, a 1 Tesla field, the duration of the pulse and subsequent energy decreases with higher RPM. At the limit (excluding inductance), the pulse width is zero; hence, Jones post on this subject. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 12:11:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NKBc8W004151; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:11:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NKBZdI004093; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:11:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:11:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-27.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] (may be forged) X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070123150223.035b52f0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:05:56 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Geothermal desalination In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <6RkA2B.A.4_.2vmtFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72209 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Where "hot rocks" are available as a source of geothermal power, and these are >situated near the coast, salt water could be used as the water source. This >would produce steam to drive turbines . . . Salt water will wreck a turbine. I doubt you can make one that would not be eroded. >. . . which could then also be condensed into fresh water. . . . You would not want to drink water that has been through a turbine. I expect the only way to use geothermal heat for desalination would be with a heat exchanger. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 12:34:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NKYMnT025326; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:34:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NKYKuP025285; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:34:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:34:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The Circular Magnetic Gradient Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:34:15 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <45B63555.4010006@pacbell.net> <45B63A63.5020100@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45B63A63.5020100@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 23 Jan 2007 20:34:15 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0NKYFko025214 Resent-Message-ID: <_2NnKC.A.xKG.KFntFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72210 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 23 Jan 2007 08:40:03 -0800: Hi, [snip] > > six "power strokes" per cycle (one every 30 degrees) > >oops ...every 60 degrees instead of every 30 degree... but it doesn't >change the general drift of the suggestion As well as multiplying the power strokes, you also multiply the sticky points. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 12:42:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NKg6wG028982; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:42:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NKg4i4028966; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:42:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:42:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 8ptNbEcVM1k9JncL.doA4SItzLZAFvxRp2IOm1xpbqTh9O6vnKwtmXofOodKE87eloAFPr1qiar5k7QsVgNCM4F.y4Twnkxzh3rH5NxXXuSQS8lWbARspUZiBfxiosGFpLiIjo5zyhVWrsg- Message-ID: <45B67319.8090207@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:42:01 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <459756.31299.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <459756.31299.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72211 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > [snip] > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > > > > Paul wrote: > >> >> So you need to ask yourself where that energy > >> >> comes from. > >> > > >> > I'm well aware of that. > >> > >> > >> Good, then you do acknowledge there is *real work* > >> being done while two magnetic dipole moments > rotate toward alignment. > > > > Absolutely! The "magnetic fields do no work" > mantra fails. It is false. > > I wonder why so many physicists still cling to such a > false idea that the B-field does no > work. I don't know but they sure do. I think part of the answer may be that physics is a very big field, and every "real physicist" must specialize; if you ask a physicist a question outside his/her specialty you may get a completely bogus answer. Not many of them pay much attention to this little corner of E&M. > >> > But you might just as well say, where does the > >> > energy "come from" when something falls off a > >> table? > >> > >> There is a big difference? In the magnet example > >> there's a way of replicating the magnetic dipole > moment by using an > >> air coil. IOW, we > >> have technology that generates magnetic fields. > We know it requires > >> energy to create > >> a magnetic field. We know it requires energy when > two coils accelerate > >> toward each > >> other due to their own attraction-- essentially > two magnetic fields > >> overlapping to some > >> degree. > > > > It appears that in terms of accounting for the > energy, one must treat > > permanent magnetic fields and fields from currents > differently. > > It's interesting electron spin is in units of Ampere > Meters^2. And what's a current > carrying wire loop? It's current flowing in a wire, > and the diameter of wire has area. An "ideal dipole" can be modeled as the field produced by a current loop, where the magnitude of the dipole is the area of the loop times the current. The field takes the form of an "ideal dipole" only in the limit, though, as the area of the loop shrinks to zero and the current goes to infinity. The natural units for such a dipole are amperes*meters^2. But you can also model an "ideal dipole" as two charges, a + and a -. The magnitude of the dipole in this case is the separation between the charges, time the magnitude of one charge. Again, the field only takes the form of an "ideal dipole field" as the separation between the charges shrinks to zero while the charge magnitude goes to infinity. The natural units for a dipole modeled this way would be meters*charge. The dimensions used for the two forms of a dipole look different but the field is the same. Nature doesn't care what units humans use, and doesn't care what model we use to explain the field of an electron to ourselves. > > The permanent ones are just a "given" -- they may > or may not contain energy > > but if they do, we can't get it out. The ones > associated with currents > > are a different story; we pump energy in when > they're formed and we get > > it back out when they collapse. > > Who knows, perhaps one day we'll learn to get the > energy in both cases. Perhaps that's > what Steorn accomplished. To within experimental > error evidence indicates the charge > radius of the electron is found to be zero. IOW, > measure twice as close to that so-called > point charge and the E-field doubles. According to QM > the E-field goes to infinity, as > the electron is claimed to have no physical extend > beyond the Poynting vector. That's a > whole lot of energy (infinite) stored in that tiny > little particle, LOL. How odd is that. When I was in college this was one of the Big Unsolved Problems (or so I was told). There were people who thought the key might lie in hyperreal analysis, but as far as I know nobody was sure. Since then this has been "solved" at least to the satisfaction of many working physicists. I understand that the solution has to do with "renormalization" but I have no idea how it actually works. :-( > >> As far as something falling from a table ... I'm > not aware of gravity > >> field > >> generating device to measure the consumed energy. > If there was such > >> an electro-gravity device > >> then we could measure the consumed power from the > source while some > >> mass (object) is > >> accelerating toward the device. :-) Perhaps it > would or would not > >> consume energy from the > >> source. > >> > >> > >> > >> > In the case of a permanent dipole in a > permanent B > >> field, the energy was > >> > apparently there all along, in the form of the > >> -mu*B potential energy > >> > function. > >> > >> Again that's not the point! Energy may be in > >> different forms, but energy is energy regardless > if it is potential or > >> kinetic energy. Point being that energy is > *indeed* being added to > >> kinetic and field energy, but we cannot > >> point to any source and say, "Yeah, that's where > it is definitely > >> coming from." We can > >> assume it comes from within the electron or > whatever is attached to > >> the electron. For > >> all we know there could be some unknown higher > dimensional aspect to > >> reality-- a sea > >> of unknown energy that sustains elementary > particles, perhaps akin to > >> how the ocean > >> may sustain a hurricane. I want to know from where > that energy comes > >> from. Where is that > >> source? > > > > :-) I have no idea. > > > > I don't know what causes the field of a permanent > dipole, either. > > > > I can write a potential function for its behavior > in the field of a > > permanent magnet, and that convinces me that a > permanent magnet motor > > can't be OU. But I can't tell you where the energy > is before the magnet > > starts to move. > > > > I also can't answer this one: If two permanent > magnets accelerate > > toward each other, does the gravitational field of > the system increase > > as a result? (Hmmm, maybe I'll post that to > sci.physics.relativity -- > > should be good for a few confused responses, > anyway...) > > You mean sci.physics.relativity.pub? I'd like to know > where physicists such as Ed Witten > hang out online. :-) The news group "sci.physics.relativity". It's crawling with total loonytunes with just a few real physicists. Ed Witton doesn't sound familiar; I don't think he hangs out there (probably has more sense). > >> > If you want to ask more than that, then you're > >> asking why the > >> > electron's B field is quantized, > >> > >> I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but > >> understandably that's a QM thing. I very much > question many QM > >> concepts such as the so-called > >> photon. On one of my lists is a relatively simple > radio frequency > >> experiment to see if > >> the sub-photon exists. > >> > >> > >> > >> > and why its spin can't "slow down", > >> > >> Ahh, now we talking. I've asked many QM > physicists if > >> spin may slow down. Some don't know how to answer > such a question. > >> Most say "No." The > >> more honest ones say they don't know and encourage > a test to verify. > > > > As far as I know, according to current theory it > can't slow down. It > > can't speed up, either. It has just one speed. In > fact it seems kind > > of inaccurate to call it "spin" at all, but that's > just my opinion and I > > already admitted I don't understand quantum > mechanics. > > > > > > > >> > >> Another option I've tossed around is perhaps ZPE > or > >> some unknown sea of energy. > >> > >> Another option is perhaps there's a decrease in > >> electron velocity. The electron must always be in > motion, correct? > >> Therefore, there's > >> always room for the electron to slow down. > > > > I don't think so. The linear motion of the > electron is not at issue; > > its dipole, which is providing the energy here, is > due entirely to its > > "spin". > > > Yes, understandably, but I'm just trying to come up > with ideas to meet the demands of > conservation of energy. I'm sure there must be some > genius QM physicists out there that > have an answer. So far haven't met any with an > answer, but I would expect some silly > answer such as, "Oh yeah, the energy comes at the cost > of information. The probability of > knowing the electrons location decreases." ;-) Actually as I think about this it seems like the overall field strength and, hence, field energy must decrease as two dipoles approach (due to the fields of the two dipoles "mostly canceling"). I don't know if the reduction in field energy matches the gain in mechanical energy but it might. That, on the other hand, leads to problems in the case with two electromagnets, where the same reduction in total field strength must occur, _but_ where we've already paid the energy bill by overcoming the back EMF in the coil as it moves through the field.... > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > The fish are biting. > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 13:02:54 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NL2bOu007784; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:02:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NL2Xme007749; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:02:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:02:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 5Wp81QUVM1nxQ7cqBjMv2h2zqQYr1cKVuMBv0JHdC.75eAvr0WEP9hlfiDl8mfx2Alce3O4cmvzlTpRfFT1eHitrCiF6CoNQ8JSapYw2IUHtyrc6DGpPTfjF5awFqWKiOYEGR3lqexkNVqMeWeG4IoKZTXipZkwkGPXLnmL1ikD_bo3W6zVW2zE5GdeV Message-ID: <45B677E3.20703@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:02:27 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Circular Magnetic Gradient References: <45B594FA.5090208@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72213 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > On 1/22/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > >> True; but the energy it takes to get over the bump doesn't depend on the >> speed of rotation. It's the same whether you do it fast or slow. > > This is the error in your reasoning. Assuming the kick is an EM pulse > generating, say, a 1 Tesla field, the duration of the pulse and > subsequent energy decreases with higher RPM. At the limit (excluding > inductance), the pulse width is zero; hence, Jones post on this > subject. I don't think you can neglect inductance, though, for a couple reasons. First, the bigger the kick, the bigger the energy you must put in to build the field. The shorter the duration, the larger dI/dt must be, and the higher the voltage needed to build the field. So, a shorter kick is "pricier". Second, and more significant, the energy you put in to build the field comes back out again when the field collapses, _minus_ the part that was used to drag the load up over the "cliff". _That_ part -- the "true cost" -- shows up as additional back EMF in the electromagnet, and _that_ is the part that doesn't depend on the duration of the pulse: it depends on the field gradient and how far the load moves, but not on how fast it moves. (Assuming constant coil current during the "kick" (bad assumption, of course!), back EMF is proportional to load velocity, and total energy required is back EMF times duration; so, shortening the time increases the needed power and decreases the duration by equal factors and the net energy needed is unchanged.) So, in toto, you actually pay out (and don't receive back) a cost which is related solely to the size of the "bump" you need to drag the load over. In addition, you "lend out" (and get back!) an additional "fee" to set up the field; you get this back when you shut the field off again. (Of course, you may just get this back in the form of burned points or a warm power transistor...) You pay interest on the "loan" in the form of dissipation due to resistance in the wires of the electromagnet. That "interest" will be reduced if the "kick" can be made shorter (as the motor goes faster). But the irreducible energy cost of pulling the load up the cliff won't actually decrease as a result of higher motor speed. Higher speed => efficiency of the magnet's action will be higher, due to reduction of resistive losses. But that just gets you closer to the ideal state of just putting in the energy you actually need, without any "extra cost" in the form of waste; it doesn't reduce the amount of energy you actually need. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 13:02:59 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NL2lwV019507; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:02:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NKuhkv017029; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:56:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:56:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Geothermal desalination Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:56:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070123150223.035b52f0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070123150223.035b52f0@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 23 Jan 2007 20:56:41 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0NKufir017009 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72212 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:05:56 -0500: Hi, [snip] >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>Where "hot rocks" are available as a source of geothermal power, and these are >>situated near the coast, salt water could be used as the water source. This >>would produce steam to drive turbines . . . > >Salt water will wreck a turbine. I doubt you can make one that would >not be eroded. The salt water doesn't get anywhere near the turbine. I wrote (see above) "steam to drive turbines". The salt water is injected into the hot rocks where it evaporates, leaving the salt in the rocks at a depth of thousands of feet. The steam makes its way to the surface where it drives a turbine, and is then condensed into fresh water. Nevertheless, there is likely to be some entrained salt. This can be dealt with in either of two ways. A heat exchanger as you suggest, or by making the turbine out of either ceramic or plastic, or perhaps just a ceramic or plastic coating on metal. Teflon comes to mind. > > >>. . . which could then also be condensed into fresh water. . . . > >You would not want to drink water that has been through a turbine. That depends on whether or not the turbine was designed with this in mind. Furthermore, the water need not necessarily be used directly for drinking, though I don't rule that out. It could also be used for irrigation, thereby freeing up other water supplies for drinking. > >I expect the only way to use geothermal heat for desalination would >be with a heat exchanger. ..probably several in fact, see MSF (MFD). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 13:12:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NLCjco016615; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:12:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NL56rU009629; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:05:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:05:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=lCCGM6j3FmqDO5x03o79gFF8Pe+xfDueNmQSE17VKmQQHfxpoUprfIZ/4R8ESS0kcCsU59PsCAjLRKPfT9WrRrcP8lRrGRwAabLPqJLl02VknypSf87mxSzSYFhC+LqOGeyldEVtfx5g0iee44U3cup7A192bgJ7Z2dtaLdvLG8=; X-YMail-OSG: YgPrgV0VM1lyHVgSVnFbB3Re.micPGgRXSLvso1a5YA1z4u.11RvZztm03g8s12ef39Adj1IdF.dMrA6cENeuxnclMyo2xr3eF6tQozDybaY3XixacFft7g0KaJQKzOc7Gj1mCtLcGkpeFDrZySvkhAq Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:05:03 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <577576.9974.qm@web62405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <1AHExD.A.PWC.BintFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72214 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: [snip] >> You mean sci.physics.relativity.pub? I'd like to know >> where physicists such as Ed Witten hang out online. :-) > > The news group "sci.physics.relativity". It's crawling with total > loonytunes with just a few real physicists. Ed Witton doesn't sound > familiar; I don't think he hangs out there (probably has more sense). Well you should recognize the name Ed Witten. He's the guy who took all the nightmarish flavors of the superstring theories and created M-theory! :-) He's almost worshipped in the physics community. [snip] >> Yes, understandably, but I'm just trying to come up >> with ideas to meet the demands of conservation of energy. I'm sure >> there must be some >> genius QM physicists out there that have an answer. So far haven't >> met any with an >> answer, but I would expect some silly answer such as, "Oh yeah, the >> energy comes at the cost >> of information. The probability of knowing the electrons location >> decreases." ;-) > > Actually as I think about this it seems like the overall field strength > and, hence, field energy must decrease as two dipoles approach (due to > the fields of the two dipoles "mostly canceling"). I don't know if the > reduction in field energy matches the gain in mechanical energy but it > might. No, no, no. Two magnetically aligned dipoles increase the net magnetic field. > That, on the other hand, leads to problems in the case with two > electromagnets, where the same reduction in total field strength must > occur, _but_ where we've already paid the energy bill by overcoming the > back EMF in the coil as it moves through the field.... Again, you have it backwards. See above comment. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 13:32:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NLW3Lm029877; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:32:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NLW1cN029853; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:32:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:32:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ozfSGcCy06R1iYOe27vX3ZJKyL0TAM4XcyrOH6rJlrS04fJ5GY1qmQgwZ5QtFM4sG8hYnLwNm9dSqnTgspKY0qeIS+lRVRkHB0ZhCNggpi8+xRQ9fKvRGTdrysQQx6U96DmT9D/j9xpZFy5ryO37m+LKsZ5CY6ZZGxlSqZWXIrw= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:31:58 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-Reply-To: <577576.9974.qm@web62405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2122_6520865.1169587918087" References: <577576.9974.qm@web62405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72215 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------=_Part_2122_6520865.1169587918087 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, first let me explain something. I didn't pay much attention to the post I initially replied to, I didn't pay any attention to the subject line and assumed it was a discussion going on in a different list where the list owner (Bill Alek) expressed that he does not believe that any magnetic free energy devices are real becaise he has 'tried it all'. ;) So that is why I said what I did about Free Energy not being possible based on conventional physics. However I am aware of one very real exception, this one is absolutely solid. It's fact, it's free energy and if you do a mathematical workup you will agree, I've brought this up here in the past and no one has been able to see a flaw because there isn't one. Here it is, I'll copy and paste what I posted somewhere else the other day. I am a major proponent of the aether, though I didn't like it to begin with it just makes far too much sense. What is odd is I'm going to present a Free Energy device that does not use the aether in any way. In part that's why I'm presenting it here, not sure I need this distraction, but it's so straight forward. It's the super charging effect, connect a decent voltage to a long piece of wire and current flows, if it is an open circuit it will take a while before it knows this and so it will send current through anyway charging it to a high voltage, it's the electrical analog of the verified OU water hammer effect in pipes, now if we take the speed of light in a vacuum 299,792,458 meters a second (in reality it will be slower than that which is good) and suppose a 200 meter transmission like, then double it to 400m because the wave gets to the end and must reflect, so that gives us 749,481 but we need some off time, so assume a 50% duty cycle, we have 374,740 hz, quite reasonable. Now what happens where all those electrons, amps and amps worth squeeze themselves into a piece of wire? Well you get a crazy high voltage. Maybe even high enough to release the electrons as effectively beta radiation. At any rate metals near it will be charged, now what does this sound like to you? Tesla, Ed Gray. We know the effect works, it occurs in long transmission lines (it happens every time, and it's killed people), there is nothing to doubt, and the math works out. It's only an issue on engineering it and making it practical, and unlike the mysterious forces of the aether we can calculate this one before we begin. Now I am in favor of doing this with a long line as that simplifies the switching we can make a compact long transmission line by making the type of coil Hooper (motional magnetic field guy) made, where we fold a wire back on it's self, by doing this we get a compact transmission line without the inductance of a coil (a normal coil will slow the all important rise time), a normal bucking bifilar coil won't work as the impulse will transfer inductively and will appear superluminal as it won't travel through the wire, but the Hooper coil or tightly wound bucking parallel caduceus (in other words a normal caduceus) will have both types of inductances cancel. (note: the caduceus coil must be single layer, note2: interestingly induction will still take place, only it will be weak microwave frequency oscillations) Of course any dual channel scope can easily measure the effectiveness of a delay line section. It would be possible to do this with mechanical switching if you had a delay line of over 200 meters, although it would be difficult. You could tap the power in 2 ways, one is by having the charges spray or arc to another electrode, the other obviously is by capacitive induction, in either case you going to want to surround it by an electrode as Ed Gray uses, not sure why perforation is required/preferred. This is a pretty straight forward Free Energy device, we can calculate it, work it out, run easy tests with oscilloscopes, calculate what kind of voltage we will be dealing with, it's not the mysterious type of Free Energy machine, it's a totally reliable mathematically certain proven Free Energy machine. We can either run it as stated above or instead use the principle of opening a closed circuit, though the frequency will need to be twice as high. One thing not noted above is that once charged, unless it sprays all of it's charges away the transmission line might need to be discharged, indeed in we want we may opt not to use another electrode and merely discharge the high voltage on the transmission line. This is also better in some ways than my favorite of gaining Free Energy from the aether as this is a single effect, it can't be misused. I recommend anyone not sure what to do should work on this, it's a Free Energy effect like no other, we know it's been done before (Tesla, Ed Gray, Swiss ML) and we can calculate it, it's success isn't Dependant on unknowns. (the effect is also clearly present every time you flick a light switch and hear speakers pop, it happens in transmission lines, and best of all it happens every single time) So if you don't know what to do, work on this. Another thing, this effect can also be used to create a unidirectional propulsive force by turning 2 electromagnets on and off in the right way, this has already been patented. Turn on coil 1 and it produces a magnetic field, turn coil 2 on and it is immediately attracted/repelled by the magnetic field of 1, however coil 1 does not instantaneously know that 2 has turned on and so for a moment 2 ir pushed while 1 is not, now once the field from 2 reaches 1, turn it off, it will still take coil 2 some time before it detects detects the field from 1 has changed and it will continue to experience force, if you do it right 1 need not have felt 2 at all. IF infact coil 1 does immediately react to coil 2 being turned on then that is a superluminal reaction, pretty cool (and generally considered impossible), otherwise the only other way this could fail to create a unidirectional force is if coil 1 which no longer has and current flowing through it (it's open circuit) feels a force even though it no longer has a current passing through it and is no longer creating a magnetic field which is kinda crazy. (Indeed if you had a huge coil in space, you could turn the coil off, turn it into scrap and then have a force placed on it, no way) There is a patent on this in the US btw. On 1/24/07, Paul wrote: > > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > [snip] > >> You mean sci.physics.relativity.pub? I'd like to > know > >> where physicists such as Ed Witten hang out > online. :-) > > > > The news group "sci.physics.relativity". It's > crawling with total > > loonytunes with just a few real physicists. Ed > Witton doesn't sound > > familiar; I don't think he hangs out there > (probably has more sense). > > Well you should recognize the name Ed Witten. He's > the guy who took all the nightmarish > flavors of the superstring theories and created > M-theory! :-) He's almost worshipped in > the physics community. > > > > [snip] > >> Yes, understandably, but I'm just trying to come > up > >> with ideas to meet the demands of conservation of > energy. I'm sure > >> there must be some > >> genius QM physicists out there that have an > answer. So far haven't > >> met any with an > >> answer, but I would expect some silly answer such > as, "Oh yeah, the > >> energy comes at the cost > >> of information. The probability of knowing the > electrons location > >> decreases." ;-) > > > > Actually as I think about this it seems like the > overall field strength > > and, hence, field energy must decrease as two > dipoles approach (due to > > the fields of the two dipoles "mostly canceling"). > I don't know if the > > reduction in field energy matches the gain in > mechanical energy but it > > might. > > No, no, no. Two magnetically aligned dipoles increase > the net magnetic field. > > > > > That, on the other hand, leads to problems in the > case with two > > electromagnets, where the same reduction in total > field strength must > > occur, _but_ where we've already paid the energy > bill by overcoming the > > back EMF in the coil as it moves through the > field.... > > > Again, you have it backwards. See above comment. > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. > Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com > > ------=_Part_2122_6520865.1169587918087 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, first let me explain something.

I didn't pay much attention to the post I initially replied to, I didn't pay any attention to the subject line and assumed it was a discussion going on in a different list where the list owner (Bill Alek) expressed that he does not believe that any magnetic free energy devices are real becaise he has 'tried it all'. ;)

So that is why I said what I did about Free Energy not being possible based on conventional physics.
However I am aware of one very real exception, this one is absolutely solid.

It's fact, it's free energy and if you do a mathematical workup you will agree, I've brought this up here in the past and no one has been able to see a flaw because there isn't one.

Here it is, I'll copy and paste what I posted somewhere else the other day.

I am a major proponent of the aether, though I didn't like it to begin with it just makes far too much sense.

What is odd is I'm going to present a Free Energy device that does not use the aether in any way.
In part that's why I'm presenting it here, not sure I need this distraction, but it's so straight forward.

It's the super charging effect, connect a decent voltage to a long piece of wire and current flows, if it is an open circuit it will take a while before it knows this and so it will send current through anyway charging it to a high voltage, it's the electrical analog of the verified OU water hammer effect in pipes, now if we take the speed of light in a vacuum 299,792,458 meters a second (in reality it will be slower than that which is good) and suppose a 200 meter transmission like, then double it to 400m because the wave gets to the end and must reflect, so that gives us 749,481 but we need some off time, so assume a 50% duty cycle, we have 374,740 hz, quite reasonable.

Now what happens where all those electrons, amps and amps worth squeeze themselves into a piece of wire? Well you get a crazy high voltage.
Maybe even high enough to release the electrons as effectively beta radiation.

At any rate metals near it will be charged, now what does this sound like to you?
Tesla, Ed Gray.
We know the effect works, it occurs in long transmission lines (it happens every time, and it's killed people), there is nothing to doubt, and the math works out.
It's only an issue on engineering it and making it practical, and unlike the mysterious forces of the aether we can calculate this one before we begin.

Now I am in favor of doing this with a long line as that simplifies the switching we can make a compact long transmission line by making the type of coil Hooper (motional magnetic field guy) made, where we fold a wire back on it's self, by doing this we get a compact transmission line without the inductance of a coil (a normal coil will slow the all important rise time), a normal bucking bifilar coil won't work as the impulse will transfer inductively and will appear superluminal as it won't travel through the wire, but the Hooper coil or tightly wound bucking parallel caduceus (in other words a normal caduceus) will have both types of inductances cancel.  (note: the caduceus coil must be single layer, note2: interestingly induction will still take place, only it will be weak microwave frequency oscillations)

Of course any dual channel scope can easily measure the effectiveness of a delay line section.
It would be possible to do this with mechanical switching if you had a delay line of over 200 meters, although it would be difficult.

You could tap the power in 2 ways, one is by having the charges spray or arc to another electrode, the other obviously is by capacitive induction, in either case you going to want to surround it by an electrode as Ed Gray uses, not sure why perforation is required/preferred.

This is a pretty straight forward Free Energy device, we can calculate it, work it out, run easy tests with oscilloscopes, calculate what kind of voltage we will be dealing with, it's not the mysterious type of Free Energy machine, it's a totally reliable mathematically certain proven Free Energy machine.

We can either run it as stated above or instead use the principle of opening a closed circuit, though the frequency will need to be twice as high.
One thing not noted above is that once charged, unless it sprays all of it's charges away the transmission line might need to be discharged, indeed in we want we may opt not to use another electrode and merely discharge the high voltage on the transmission line.

This is also better in some ways than my favorite of gaining Free Energy from the aether as this is a single effect, it can't be misused.

I recommend anyone not sure what to do should work on this, it's a Free Energy effect like no other, we know it's been done before (Tesla, Ed Gray, Swiss ML) and we can calculate it, it's success isn't Dependant on unknowns. (the effect is also clearly present every time you flick a light switch and hear speakers pop, it happens in transmission lines, and best of all it happens every single time)

So if you don't know what to do, work on this.
Another thing, this effect can also be used to create a unidirectional propulsive force by turning 2 electromagnets on and off in the right way, this has already been patented.
Turn on coil 1 and it produces a magnetic field, turn coil 2 on and it is immediately attracted/repelled by the magnetic field of 1, however coil 1 does not instantaneously know that 2 has turned on and so for a moment 2 ir pushed while 1 is not, now once the field from 2 reaches 1, turn it off, it will still take coil 2 some time before it detects detects the field from 1 has changed and it will continue to experience force, if you do it right 1 need not have felt 2 at all.

IF infact coil 1 does immediately react to coil 2 being turned on then that is a superluminal reaction, pretty cool (and generally considered impossible), otherwise the only other way this could fail to create a unidirectional force is if coil 1 which no longer has and current flowing through it (it's open circuit) feels a force even though it no longer has a current passing through it and is no longer creating a magnetic field which is kinda crazy. (Indeed if you had a huge coil in space, you could turn the coil off, turn it into scrap and then have a force placed on it, no way)

There is a patent on this in the US btw.

On 1/24/07, Paul <softwarelabus@yahoo.com > wrote:
Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
[snip]
>> You mean sci.physics.relativity.pub ?  I'd like to
know
>> where physicists such as Ed Witten hang out
online.  :-)
>
> The news group "sci.physics.relativity".  It's
crawling with total
> loonytunes with just a few real physicists.  Ed
Witton doesn't sound
> familiar; I don't think he hangs out there
(probably has more sense).

Well you should recognize the name Ed Witten.  He's
the guy who took all the nightmarish
flavors of the superstring theories and created
M-theory!  :-)  He's almost worshipped in
the physics community.



[snip]
>> Yes, understandably, but I'm just trying to come
up
>> with ideas to meet the demands of conservation of
energy.  I'm sure
>> there must be some
>> genius QM physicists out there that have an
answer.  So far haven't
>> met any with an
>> answer, but I would expect some silly answer such
as, "Oh yeah, the
>> energy comes at the cost
>> of information. The probability of knowing the
electrons location
>> decreases."  ;-)
>
> Actually as I think about this it seems like the
overall field strength
> and, hence, field energy must decrease as two
dipoles approach (due to
> the fields of the two dipoles "mostly canceling").
I don't know if the
> reduction in field energy matches the gain in
mechanical energy but it
> might.

No, no, no.  Two magnetically aligned dipoles increase
the net magnetic field.



> That, on the other hand, leads to problems in the
case with two
> electromagnets, where the same reduction in total
field strength must
> occur, _but_ where we've already paid the energy
bill by overcoming the
> back EMF in the coil as it moves through the
field....


Again, you have it backwards.  See above comment.



Regards,
Paul Lowrance



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------=_Part_2122_6520865.1169587918087-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 13:32:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NLWE4w003918; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:32:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NLWDk9003904; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:32:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:32:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=uhYzLYqe8ol8oYj9m/jODcB739eISvDsHlKEzsFjjFp4u96OvAbQDLSurWcuP4YM/WCk/UNtlqPifk7h6fujY+k0dOIr7fpFW8CviJE1uaOxmbP9ZvD/ZMfU9wtuaZUhX+Jtt88UM75LrAICP21kepLJiRbOyTVBcegOWkx2IQ4= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:32:10 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: The Circular Magnetic Gradient In-Reply-To: <45B677E3.20703@pobox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45B594FA.5090208@pobox.com> <45B677E3.20703@pobox.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72216 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/23/07, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > I don't think you can neglect inductance, though, for a couple reasons. Agreed; however, the point was that the energy input decreases with increased RPM. The inductance must be delt with as the RPM increases. If you plot the current rise in an inductor with varying voltage you see that you can push the current quicker with higher voltage up to the limits of the EM insulator resistance (and of course, the power supply voltage). It makes for a non-trivial triggering circuit! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 13:40:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NLeLCP007071; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:40:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NLeKdi007052; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:40:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:40:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:38:12 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-reply-to: <023801c73ec5$1137fdb0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0NLeIr5007033 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72217 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 5:06 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > > ... >>> Good, then you do acknowledge there is *real work* >>> being done while two magnetic dipole >>> moments rotate toward alignment. >> >> Absolutely! The "magnetic fields do no work" mantra fails. It is false. > > Forgive me for jumping into the discussion without having followed it all. > "Magnetic fields do no work" wouldn't make sense anyway. Work is done by > forces. It's the _force on a moving charge due to the magnetic field_ qv × B > which does no work (I don't suppose you dispute that?), not the magnetic field > per se. > "Work" is done by forces acting on a body that ostensibly obeys the law of inertia. I would say the least perplexing explanation is the magnetic field transforms the law of inertial motion into a law of circular motion. This transformation could be called work-with-out-force. Of course this kind of "work" is inconceivable within conventional physics because it treats the first law of motion as an absolute or inflexible principle. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 13:50:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NLoGID015011; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:50:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NLoEQI014983; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:50:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:50:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:50:12 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <700dr2tibm899oe14hjujcgs30j4ds28nh@4ax.com> References: <45B4E6A7.4090408@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45B4E6A7.4090408@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 23 Jan 2007 21:50:11 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0NLoCIO014957 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72218 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:30:31 -0800: Hi, [snip] >http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/ > >The first two comments, at the end of the article, are interesting >regarding the technology, but are not dispositive of whether or not this >company is "for real" with the Bettery. > >Also General Motors recently announced ties and commitments to lithium >ion battery maker A123 - which to some observers would seem to mean that >GM was not impressed with EEStor. > >Wrong. To put it bluntly, GM will be the last auto company on the planet >to find the cutting edge of anything new and promising - at least if >they cannot control the company at the Board level. They are a dying >giant on a downward spiral to oblivion, which is a sad thing to see, as >the trend is indicative of how the USA is becoming a second-rate auto >producer drop-by-drop. Chinese torture for the All-American ego. [snip] The EEStor patent is US7033406 which I believe contains a design flaw. They state that the base material (Barium Titanate) is coated with Aluminum Oxide and Calcium Magnesium Aluminosilicate, which coatings are intended to increase the breakdown voltage of the composite. They then go on to calculate the energy density based upon this increased breakdown voltage. However IMO, what happens in reality is that a high voltage drop will occur across the high breakdown voltage component, and a lesser voltage drop across the Barium Titanate. IOW with such a composite construction, one can't simply apply the full voltage to the entire material for the purposes of calculating the energy density of the whole. The real energy density of any given material is actually a constant, and no "trick" of design is going to get around that. Since they specify that the breakdown voltage of Barium Titanate itself is only 60% of that of the other materials, and since voltage appears squared in the formula, the real energy density of the finished product is IMO going to be nearer 60%^2 = 36% of their claimed energy density, which would be about 3 times the energy density of lead-acid batteries. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 14:30:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0NMU8Lx011658; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:30:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0NMU7i9011645; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:30:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:30:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=zB1cALNdMcRhHVnObpzDWcvuYRfEAPdfZN1gCFSeFIy8c4feCoEddz+aEEPGsJlyWR3/W5HHrcPPfTe3sH61YVGW+FE0NoUYkxuixvwK3nMS4p2Ml0buTVsj7w0vuQ3P2g60Tm0wZiMPRuzxPdbXC3u6lVMwhsWun8ZddmxiCEo= ; X-YMail-OSG: 1fbS1XoVM1lMYkkfu_QJek3gGPuiN2vke3w87z_I.j4e5xHmnAGAx2pGTUrdLEeQwNNxsGuxDC..4pPVE5ThxljyFhYSvBNv67MnEADpKlf3rQvTzOZSXwAUgNm7m0vbVCpJbik_Hf7X5Nk1Bl8gymmiYSqYnM30 Message-ID: <45B68C66.8050003@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:29:58 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45B63555.4010006@pacbell.net> <45B63A63.5020100@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3aIkqC.A.01C.vxotFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72219 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: The Circular Magnetic Gradient Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> six "power strokes" per cycle > As well as multiplying the power strokes, you also multiply the sticky points. Yes, of course. I think you got almost there - to finding a glimmer of the ultimate tactic to push this to the limit. What we need to add into the explanatory mix, in order to understand why this is not just an exercise in grade school arithmetic is the this: You have a certain amount of stored angular momentum in any flywheel, based on its mass - the purpose of which can be labeled as "continuity" or "smoothing out" the bumps, meaning that it is designed to average-out the ups and downs of incremental torque and incremental drag, at the various stages of one revolution. Flywheels are absolutely necessary for low RPM devices like the old steam engine - which had plenty of both peak incremental torque and peak incremental drag. *Peak drag* per any segment of one revolution (but NOT net total drag) would seem to be the all-important variable for flywheel mass. You can lower the peak of each of the two variables (boost and drag) by adding more cylinders in an auto engine, for instance, and this decreases the necessary flywheel size. Same with the number of EMILE "arms" ? Glad she isn't named Helena. A rule of thumb for flywheel mass in low RPM situations as witnessed by the single cylinder engines of 80 years ago (which had 500 pound flywheels) and this may also be a function of the Aspden effect - is the larger the better - if you can start it. Modern automobiles do not have a big flywheel because they have effectively lowered 'peak drag' with more cylinders - and also they require the quick variability of engine speed for acceleration, so they sacrifice the advantages of a flywheel, if any are truly a significant part of the Aspden effect. When drag can be reduced from its peak level - even if the average is the same, one can effectively use lesser weighted flywheels. This is as much an educated guess as a well-researched finding. But so long as you do not need to vary the speed of the device quickly, and if you can start it up by hand without needing a larger starting boost, then we would be talking about matching the net angular momentum against the highest level of drag, ERGO when you divide by three - even though the net drag is the same - the peak is one third less and the flywheel mass can be reduced correspondingly without gearing. For EMILE this might be the difference between a 20 kg flywheel and a 60 kg one. I have no idea what is easily doable in that circumstance - but even with the old model adding a 60 kg flywheel and ditching the solenoid - could seemingly be done in a day or so. Bottom line - yes you have more sticky points with more arms - but the peak drag is much less even though the average drag is the same - and in order to avoid gearing, you can use a lighter flywheel with the design change --- or --- why not try the proverbial "super-size-it" BF-Flywheel first? Here's on that granny sez - you can if if you carry it out: http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Scrap/Scrap12.jpg That is my take on the situation - and again it would seem that the more ramps and arms which are provided - the lower the mass of and effective flywheel size - but at some point you would run into the problem of eddy heating of the magnets and NIBS have a low Curie point. Maybe IF the thing is really OU (big grin) then at the same time, it will be self-cooling as well - but as I am (figuratively) from Mizzou, and as they say in the South - show me! Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 16:27:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0O0RdBH029627; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:27:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0O0RXXO029599; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:27:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:27:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QXuR4VF9W8+ujXhz89Zu+w63iy3nXm0+gNDux+ctlqxXDo0y9wA92YdXkFrmJ7EOIlzWmeOjErSdE2hMafHqbPjKwfLHSJ8bMvK+pf5lMXbS+Df72gsXJrhT5KSbjxbWyyBvh6x9NIbLc4Om8bBNplGtuiD7azB5FmOmbtGpCCU= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:27:29 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The Circular Magnetic Gradient In-Reply-To: <45B68C66.8050003@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45B63555.4010006@pacbell.net> <45B63A63.5020100@pacbell.net> <45B68C66.8050003@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72220 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/23/07, Jones Beene wrote: > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > >> six "power strokes" per cycle > > > As well as multiplying the power strokes, you also multiply the sticky points. > > Yes, of course. I think you got almost there - to finding a glimmer of > the ultimate tactic to push this to the limit. Well, since were pushin' the limits . . . Another well respected engineer friend of mine used this calculator: http://www.magnetsales.com/Design/Tools1.htm and came to the conclusion that, with the right configuration of rotor magnets and spiral spacing he could get the bloody thing to self run with, I think, seven rotor magnets. The combined torque from the circular gradient on the other six overcame the "sticky spot" for number seven. He even bought a number of 1" N48 cubes to give it a shot. I'll have to encourage him to proceed with his toy. BTW the flywheel discussion is quite interesting since the Steorn forum seems to believe that the Steorn device needs gravity to get past the "SS", ie, it only works with a vertical disk. Craigy seems to be close to a replication: http://youtube.com/watch?v=nIAV089eLLw For those not following the action, Grimer got Sean McCarthy to admit that they had not built the 550 bhp motor. AAMOF, Sean says they have never hooked one of their motors to a generator to try to make juice. A bit suspicious, I'd say. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 19:55:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0O3t7fT000726; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:55:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0O3t5sp000712; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:55:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:55:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: mSvefb0VM1k8a3AG0xGesLk2sq6OijFb1SGq..I68ruuxOklX9pIoI4ZoudFvj86r7m_6sJVamjjocCKD0o3qU9ib9gCYGLCAxWdkSXf0CltM2cKqW7pYNn1fjOSCCKdh71yZ2I5mWbQabs8uuvB4CiP5Mo1YRYOnZEabGIgqOO_u8UP5KpHtZgOG8Q1 Message-ID: <45B6D895.6000704@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:55:01 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <577576.9974.qm@web62405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <577576.9974.qm@web62405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72221 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > [snip] > >> You mean sci.physics.relativity.pub? I'd like to > know > >> where physicists such as Ed Witten hang out > online. :-) > > > > The news group "sci.physics.relativity". It's > crawling with total > > loonytunes with just a few real physicists. Ed > Witton doesn't sound > > familiar; I don't think he hangs out there > (probably has more sense). > > Well you should recognize the name Ed Witten. He's > the guy who took all the nightmarish > flavors of the superstring theories and created > M-theory! :-) He's almost worshipped in > the physics community. > > > > [snip] > >> Yes, understandably, but I'm just trying to come > up > >> with ideas to meet the demands of conservation of > energy. I'm sure > >> there must be some > >> genius QM physicists out there that have an > answer. So far haven't > >> met any with an > >> answer, but I would expect some silly answer such > as, "Oh yeah, the > >> energy comes at the cost > >> of information. The probability of knowing the > electrons location > >> decreases." ;-) > > > > Actually as I think about this it seems like the > overall field strength > > and, hence, field energy must decrease as two > dipoles approach (due to > > the fields of the two dipoles "mostly canceling"). > I don't know if the > > reduction in field energy matches the gain in > mechanical energy but it > > might. > > No, no, no. Two magnetically aligned dipoles increase > the net magnetic field. That's true, but two aligned dipoles don't attract each other. You need to flip one so they're N-S, S-N for there to be attraction, and in that case the fields cancel as they approach. If they're identical (but with one flipped), and if you could move them together until they were co-located, you'd have zero net field. Here's a picture of two dipoles, oriented vertically, which will attract each other (using coils produces the same result but is harder to draw in flat Ascii than the "mythical" two-charge dipoles): N S | | | | | | S N When they are allowed to go all the way together, so that they're touching, the colocated N and S "charges" produce canceling fields: NS || || || || SN With two _aligned_ dipoles, on the other hand, they repel; you need to do work on them to force them together. And then, the fields add, and since the energy in the field goes as the square of the strength, you end up with double the total field energy you had to start with (or something close to it) as the energy density quadruples (square of field strength, of course) and the volume filled by the two fields drops by half. Two repelling dipoles: N N | | | | | | S S If we force them against each other, they're oriented such that their fields will reinforce: NN || || || || SS > > That, on the other hand, leads to problems in the > case with two > > electromagnets, where the same reduction in total > field strength must > > occur, _but_ where we've already paid the energy > bill by overcoming the > > back EMF in the coil as it moves through the > field.... > > > Again, you have it backwards. See above comment. I think I have this straight, but I may have said it wrong. If we place two relatively INVERTED electromagnets next to each other, they attract each other, and if we allow them to come together, there's a back EMF as they approach, and we need to add electrical energy to maintain the current in the loops. If we have two ALIGNED electromagnets, to bring them together, we need to _force_ them together (they repel) and as we do so, there's an induced forward EMF -- we get electrical energy out. If we get mechanical work out, we need to put electrical energy in, and conversely. The case with electromagnets is confusing, unfortunately, because the field is more complicated than with infinitesimal permanent dipoles -- for a counterclockwise current, the field goes "up" inside the loop and "down" outside the loop; when we shut off the current it's the field _inside_ the loop that gives back its energy to the loop, via del x E = -dB/dt When dB/dt points "up" (increasing field strength), curl(E) points down, and the induced EMF is clockwise (which is reverse the direction of current flow). But unless the loops actually overlap physically, the "external" field of one loop is superimposed on the "internal" field of the other loop; hence, with two relatively inverted loops, within each loop the field is reinforced rather than canceled by the presence of the other loop. The extra energy in the fields, which you _can_ recover (by opening both loops simultaneously), comes from the fact that it actually takes twice as much electrical energy to power the loops while they pull themselves together as you recover in mechanical energy. Conversely, you get out twice as much electrical energy out as the mechanical energy you put in when you force aligned loops together; the extra energy comes from the lost field energy within the current loops (which is no longer recoverable by opening the loops, and so is a "real" loss). > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 23 20:48:30 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0O4mKGG000768; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 20:48:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0O4mDPF000668; Tue, 23 Jan 2007 20:48:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 20:48:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=zbPJnmCTxLzv11j7T6r5GQIqD/6mrvStOeWrVAHf30pmQstgTuITIa14fijq+v/GeReqdAgAnwYNIvbF/CT3E03iI8SaRRD0mWQ43c1uD4rZTI+a6FRGxmnS874+u1TuomkSOKUyHE9M/nY80Y/eTtVSJftmnlUS121dqgme/9I=; X-YMail-OSG: gaOUJ.IVM1nz7MeN0tqZS78Swk0mPypKQM3_C7LDi9k6MZn8pLmk3nYPqy6RNIfg3_BI0FVfhtzI9oSOhH0.ZcXfvMk3bNOq_smnNXye91PGrg0CfeQKLiDnfUHq.unsvPjokPVt7bByRK_B6dnWgj3W Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 20:48:11 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <792997.49981.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72222 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Paul wrote: >> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> [snip] >> >> You mean sci.physics.relativity.pub? I'd like to >> know >> >> where physicists such as Ed Witten hang out >> online. :-) >> > >> > The news group "sci.physics.relativity". It's >> crawling with total >> > loonytunes with just a few real physicists. Ed >> Witton doesn't sound >> > familiar; I don't think he hangs out there >> (probably has more sense). >> >> Well you should recognize the name Ed Witten. He's >> the guy who took all the nightmarish flavors of the superstring >> theories and created >> M-theory! :-) He's almost worshipped in the physics community. >> >> >> >> [snip] >> >> Yes, understandably, but I'm just trying to come >> up >> >> with ideas to meet the demands of conservation of >> energy. I'm sure >> >> there must be some >> >> genius QM physicists out there that have an >> answer. So far haven't >> >> met any with an >> >> answer, but I would expect some silly answer such >> as, "Oh yeah, the >> >> energy comes at the cost >> >> of information. The probability of knowing the >> electrons location >> >> decreases." ;-) >> > >> > Actually as I think about this it seems like the >> overall field strength >> > and, hence, field energy must decrease as two >> dipoles approach (due to >> > the fields of the two dipoles "mostly canceling"). I don't know if the >> > reduction in field energy matches the gain in >> mechanical energy but it >> > might. >> >> No, no, no. Two magnetically aligned dipoles increase >> the net magnetic field. > > That's true, but two aligned dipoles don't attract each other. No, it's the process of two *unaligned* dipoles in the act of rotating to alignment. That generates kinetic energy in addition to an increase in net magnetic field. > You need to flip one so they're N-S, S-N for there to be attraction They attract until they are perfectly aligned NS NS. >, and in that case the fields cancel as they approach. That's not true. When aligned they are NS NS. That is full magnetic alignment and they do *not* cancel. The net field increases. > If they're identical > (but with one flipped), and if you could move them together until they > were co-located, you'd have zero net field. > > Here's a picture of two dipoles, oriented vertically, which will attract > each other (using coils produces the same result but is harder to draw > in flat Ascii than the "mythical" two-charge dipoles): > > > N S > | | > | | > | | > S N Again that is half magnet alignment. Also your drawings look more like rods, not dipoles. ;-) Here's fully unaligned (max cancellation) --> NS....SN Here's half alignment --> N....S S....N Here's full alignment (max net field) --> NS....NS > When they are allowed to go all the way together, so that they're > touching, the colocated N and S "charges" produce canceling fields: > > NS > || > || > || > || > SN A lot of people get this mixed up, but it becomes clear when one understands that the magnetic field in front of a dipole is twice the density as the sides. That is why full alignment is NS NS, when the poles are *facing*. That's why your above diagram is half alignment. [snip] >> > That, on the other hand, leads to problems in the >> case with two >> > electromagnets, where the same reduction in total >> field strength must >> > occur, _but_ where we've already paid the energy >> bill by overcoming the >> > back EMF in the coil as it moves through the >> field.... >> >> >> Again, you have it backwards. See above comment. > > I think I have this straight, but I may have said it wrong. > > If we place two relatively INVERTED electromagnets next to each other, > they attract each other, and if we allow them to come together, there's > a back EMF as they approach, and we need to add electrical energy to > maintain the current in the loops. If we have two ALIGNED > electromagnets, to bring them together, we need to _force_ them together > (they repel) Two aligned electromagnets do not repel. They *attract*. > and as we do so, there's an induced forward EMF -- we get > electrical energy out. That's backwards. :) As they attract and move closer there's back EMF, which consumes energy from the battery. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 03:16:04 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OBFtFE016170; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 03:15:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OBFnZH016095; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 03:15:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 03:15:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <032801c73fa8$fc04ff30$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <792997.49981.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:15:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0OBFhAA016060 Resent-Message-ID: <5BXfaB.A.b7D.k_ztFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72223 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Indeed both kinetic and magnetic field energies are increasing in the process. Is this a violation of energy conservation? No. Electric potential energy is decreasing somewhere, I'll let you find where :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 5:48 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics ... > No, it's the process of two *unaligned* dipoles in the > act of rotating to alignment. That > generates kinetic energy in addition to an increase in > net magnetic field. ... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 06:46:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OEkWMd026980; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 06:46:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OEkUPr026964; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 06:46:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 06:46:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=oHuUmV2x8lPwa59qntl70kvzY6zcI4PML8J38DunnijB6c4nPh7ashvq0umlxhrkl8+Hgh++nel3ua2vt9ysFqW8q0u1baTrQecDhmpGECoJ8KF4cO488einVtt6t/1piZLu4bvQwzrfHPm9kOCHS4n0GH9AetnjPGc+u+wyKbo=; X-YMail-OSG: u8CUJqQVM1mT4iyIJ_Hu3oh_alNWcENNGVE7bN00oNHCaYTVxu4pfAnew67Tou6ndWdJtESVS1mANAEODa9gsJZwZL5q15dPSR9xkfq6aneOH816hrM111SwxRhGB8HZDwgI5nhVnQr8gK27zV84zSLoxOHSQ9XGiAzVAwG2gbm8YPjqiYpaH5Z5cmMXHp0UVv_ZJw-- Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 06:46:27 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <190469.56095.qm@web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72224 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > Indeed both kinetic and magnetic field energies are increasing in the process. Is this a violation of energy conservation? No. Electric potential energy is decreasing somewhere, I'll let you find where :) > > Michel The old "I know, but I don't want to tell you" trick? :) You are incorrect. The change in E-field energy can greatly *vary* depending upon the variation of the test. Here are two variations that clearly demonstrates all three (Kinetic, Magnetic, and Electric) energies increase --> Variation #1: Two separated permanent magnets. Each magnet is *slightly* negatively charged. :-) Magnets are released, in which both accelerate toward each other in a linear and angular fashion due to the overwhelming magnetic attraction. This results in a gain in kinetic, magnetic, and electric energy. :-)) The gain in electric energy is due to the fact that we are forcing electrons closer to each other. Work is force times distance. Furthermore, the net E-field increases as the two objects approach each other. Variation #2: And the final blow to your theory (no offense intended) is the fact that two electromagnet dipoles that accelerate toward each other ***consumes*** energy from the current source, especially if you negatively or positively charge both electromagnets. This clearly demonstrates the entire *net* process requires energy. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 07:37:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OFbiRJ020885; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:37:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OFbh5i020867; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:37:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:37:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ddBey75IkB2f6uh59DCyWXAn0bFc5YtO6RrJQf9TnVX9EkYqXSXIKfmhiXNiYLghp2x6RBDAX2xN42Jf75R0Wk6+XyoxQR8Z2cM/BnR75fgpYj/v3YBJqinXlU5D2B8ne4sMe1NBxFtqt6D654HM+dX5VlgDFEIWNyxKU8cewvY= ; X-YMail-OSG: 4yJOdGgVM1lfe22KlCGhLK1xkSOnTDn0Vb0x1cT0bdHrib4EJqYb3.hqDkFdrc8lV4ro4GbYQg-- Message-ID: <45B77D41.9010302@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:37:37 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0OFbgpW020847 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72225 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: OT: Death of a Plumber Status: O X-Status: Harry has been scanning the breaking news of late.... E.Howard: Living on borrowed time anyway, perhaps? But wait there's more. No glowing eulogies in the Press for this scum-bag. The guy botched three top level jobs, and in earlier spy-wars days woulda/shoulda turned up with a hoe-in-tha-head (thirty dirty years ago) aka "Vinced" as they now call it - with a so-called "suicide note" pinned on his lapel. In addition to the botched Watergate break-in, Hunt helped orchestrate a nasty coup in Guatemala, played a part in the botched the Bay of Pigs invasion, and might have been present on that fateful "grassy knoll" in Dallas. Hunt, preferred the term "Watergate conspirator," as he was "no common burglar" (murderers do have some pride!) died in Miami after a lengthy bout of pneumonia at the incredible age of 88. Incredible, that is, for a man who may have "known too much" to live and possibly "tell all"... He has a memoir coming out soon entitled "American Spy: My Secret History in the CIA, Watergate and Beyond." Methinks it has been partially sanitized...(as to his own role) but some tidbits are leaking out... BTW - A $650,000 libel settlement he was awarded in 1981, stemming from a News article alleging his involvement in the JFK assassination was overturned and he never collected a dime. "I think I've paid my debt to society," Hunt said cryptically in 1997. Signed, Harry "not a plumber" Tuttle PS: As to the new book, which is now being rushed to print with Hunt's death: It has been reported on the Web that E Howard (never trust a man who uses an initial ahead of his name, especially when it stands for Everette) had specific inside information on the Coup d'etat. Yup - bombshell - that former President +Lyndon Baines Johnson+ WOW thats right - LBJ hissef... was directly orchestrating the JFK assassination, and its cover-up. This statement echoes the claims of others close to LBJ at the time who have also blown the whistle on Johnson's complicity in the murder. Hunt sez:"LBJ had the money and the connections [Oil Company?] to manipulate the scenario in Dallas and is on record as having convinced JFK to make the appearance in the first place." "He further tried unsuccessfully to engineer the passengers of each vehicle, trying to get his good buddy, Gov. [John] Connolly, to ride with him instead of in JFK's car – where...he would have been out of danger," writes Hunt who concludes, "Having Kennedy liquidated, thus elevating himself to the presidency without having to work for it himself, could have been a very tempting and logical move on Johnson's part." BTW none of these quotes above can be corroborated, as they appeared on one of conspiracy-sites which I never visit. Hmm... don't you just love death-bed confessions ? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 07:44:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OFiSEf022895; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:44:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OFiR7D022879; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:44:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:44:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <035501c73fce$850d4240$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45B63555.4010006@pacbell.net> <45B63A63.5020100@pacbell.net> <45B68C66.8050003@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The Circular Magnetic Gradient Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:44:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0OFiP5M022863 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72226 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What's this, Sprain and Steorn competing for investors/licensees? I would never had thought there could be a shortage of gullible people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_perpetual_motion_machines Note there is also a honest way to make money with a permanent magnet device: bet it's not overunity ;-) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:27 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The Circular Magnetic Gradient ... > For those not following the action, Grimer got Sean McCarthy to admit > that they had not built the 550 bhp motor. AAMOF, Sean says they have > never hooked one of their motors to a generator to try to make juice. > A bit suspicious, I'd say. > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 07:47:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OFlP5I017140; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:47:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OFlNnY017125; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:47:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:47:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:57:18 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakesideone.net Message-id: <200701241057.18718.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: <21bdiD.A.hLE.L-3tFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72227 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 19 January 2007 13:30, Jed Rothwell wrote: > The lead story in today's Yomiuri newspaper (in Japanese) says that > Bush will announce new steps to address global warming in his State > of the Union speech on Jan. 23. He will emphasize "ethanol and other > alternative fuels." > > Sigh . . . > > Well, at least there has been some anti-ethanol press lately. I saw > articles in Sci. Am., Consumer Reports, and the Atlanta Journal > calling into question the use of ethanol. One of them reported a > horrifying statistic: filling up a 25 gallon tank with ethanol fuel > uses up as much potential nutrition from corn as a human being > consumes in a year. > > That seems over the top but . . . Yikes, it is as bad as that. > Ethanol has 89 MJ/gallon. 25 gallons * 89 MJ = 2,225 MJ. That > converts to 531,788 kilocalories. Divide by 2,000 recommended daily > allowance and you get 266 days. (I am ignoring fossil fuel and > electric power input, which are ~1.7 times the total energy output of > the ethanol.) Perhaps the ethanol factories extract more energy per > kilogram of corn that human digestion does, but I doubt it. > > - Jed I wonder about the efficiency of digestion systems. Seems some perform better than others. Now a rough....I mean really rough measure of this efficiency would probably be to look at the byproducts of the human digestion. No I do not mean portraits of certain prominent figures in the grand old (offal...I mean awful) party. How much the _ _ _ _ smells would be a measure of the volatility of it. This in itself is more than: "good _ _ _ _ stinks like _ _ _ should!". Pure physics! say that this aroma will contain methane, ammonia, and other gasses that retain some chemical energy capable of extraction. Every wastewater treatment plant worthy of calling itself that will have a 'digester' on the premises somewhere. Here is where the solids after treatment go to be fermented for methane and other aliphatics and aromatics, mostly flammable, are generated for energy recovery. In the wild, many critters like dung beatles make a living from eating _ _ _ _. Now this may be humerous for some, but try to stay focused. More focused than the writer who is ROTFL....this writer. Who can now qualify as a republican speechwriter cuz I can be a redneck and know my _ _ _ _. On the other hand, chemical processes can be quite efficient inasmuch as all reactant products can be retained and utilized. Much more than common animal processes. In truth much of this natural inefficiency is beneficial to nature as a means of spreading the wealth. Standing Bear.......or trying to.... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 07:55:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OFsrrl020225; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:54:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OFspOi020200; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:54:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:54:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: do9nDg0VM1kc2Zp7HHnK6nllScel13vZ_zLXO5nICfRo.voY1ujvWsLxMS4RcdH_o6RcWCc6HFGAyHJkd1Q3Yi1HhIIfDe2RrccCMDlhQzCjrKaDQjj3mnbnnGUhsRCo5Jsx5o0M3PieZ_s- Message-ID: <45B78149.3090603@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:54:49 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <792997.49981.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <792997.49981.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72228 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Arrgh. There is more than one way to orient magnets such that they attract each other, and our mental pictures have been misaligned. By the way, I actually have worked out a lot of this stuff already, in a somewhat more precise form. For permanent dipoles: http://www.physicsinsights.org/force_on_dipole_1.html (NB -- this is all in geometrized cgs units so it may look like it's missing something -- no mu_0, no "c", as far as the eye can see.) And, regarding interactions between electromagnets and permanent magnets, here: http://www.physicsinsights.org/magnetic_motors_1.html Paul wrote: [ ... snip chop slice ... ] > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > You need to flip one so they're N-S, S-N for there > to be attraction > > They attract until they are perfectly aligned NS NS. When they're aligned N | | | | S N | | | | S they can flip (rotate) so that they're aligned NS || || || || SN and, in fact, if you jiggled them a little and then let them have their way, that's exactly what they'd tend to do. It's a lower energy configuration than the end-to-end configuration, which is most apparent when you model them as magnetic monopoles stuck to the ends of rods. In any case, if they're aligned NSNS they'll attract, and if they're side by side aligned N/S S/N they'll attract, also, and in both cases the torque will be zero because the torque is proportional to the mis-alignment of the dipole vector and the field vector. And, of course, the field vector points straight out the end (parallel to the dipole), but for positions "next to" the magnet it points opposite to the direction of the dipole. > >, and in that case the fields cancel as they > approach. > > That's not true. When aligned they are NS NS. That > is full magnetic alignment and they > do *not* cancel. The net field increases. It increases versus a single magnet, that's true. But compared with two distant magnets? I'm not so sure; we need to ask: Does the field increase or decrease as they're drawn apart along a line? The approximations come thick and fast as one tries to picture this: N---S N---S draw one away this way--> I _think_ net field energy increases as they're pulled apart (which would make sense, energywise!) but I haven't worked this one out for real. [ snip ] > Two aligned electromagnets do not repel. They > *attract*. Arrgh. We're both right. If they're end-to-end they attract when they're aligned. If they're side by side they attract when they're misaligned. > That's backwards. :) As they attract and move closer > there's back EMF, which consumes > energy from the battery. Yes, no matter the alignment, we "pay" for the work done as they pull themselves together, by pumping in electrical energy. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 08:16:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OGGE6V001607; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:16:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OGGCVh001578; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:16:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:16:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <035d01c73fd2$f52c1f20$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <190469.56095.qm@web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:16:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0OGGAq6001558 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72229 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 3:46 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > > Indeed both kinetic and magnetic field energies are > increasing in the process. Is this > a violation of energy conservation? No. Electric > potential energy is decreasing somewhere, > I'll let you find where :) > > > > Michel > > > The old "I know, but I don't want to tell you" trick? > :) Not at all, I will give the answer eventually, say on Sunday if nobody finds it before, which I doubt very much. The fun is in the searching, I have given away far too much already :) Your variations don't change the issue BTW, so let's stick to your original experiment. Michel You are incorrect. The change > in E-field energy can greatly *vary* depending upon > the variation of the test. Here are > two variations that clearly demonstrates all three > (Kinetic, Magnetic, and Electric) > energies increase --> > > Variation #1: > Two separated permanent magnets. Each magnet is > *slightly* negatively charged. :-) > Magnets are released, in which both accelerate toward > each other in a linear and angular > fashion due to the overwhelming magnetic attraction. > This results in a gain in kinetic, > magnetic, and electric energy. :-)) The gain in > electric energy is due to the fact that > we are forcing electrons closer to each other. Work > is force times distance. > Furthermore, the net E-field increases as the two > objects approach each other. > > Variation #2: > And the final blow to your theory (no offense > intended) is the fact that two electromagnet > dipoles that accelerate toward each other > ***consumes*** energy from the current source, > especially if you negatively or positively charge both > electromagnets. This clearly > demonstrates the entire *net* process requires energy. > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 08:25:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OGPLPq006256; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:25:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OGPJ73006233; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:25:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:25:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45B7885C.6020903@usfamily.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:25:00 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45B63555.4010006@pacbell.net> <45B63A63.5020100@pacbell.net> <45B68C66.8050003@pacbell.net> <035501c73fce$850d4240$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <035501c73fce$850d4240$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_ftJKD.A.HhB.uh4tFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72230 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: more on Steorn Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >What's this, Sprain and Steorn competing for investors/licensees? I would never had thought there could be a shortage of gullible people: > As I mentioned previously, I wanted to suggest that they test the machine's output with a waterheater. I visited their website. I tried to send them an email, info @steorn, but it was returned. I attempted to paste the text into the email us window, but it wouldn't paste. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 08:41:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OGeiT6016695; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:40:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OGehJ9016673; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:40:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:40:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:50:40 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union In-reply-to: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119143814.035ad5a8@mindspring.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakesideone.net Message-id: <200701241150.40997.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070119143814.035ad5a8@mindspring.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72231 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 19 January 2007 14:53, Jed Rothwell wrote: > leaking pen wrote: > >Well, besides the issues that have been shown with too much corn > >syrup . . . > > As I said, one third of the people who will do not get enough to eat. > Too much corn syrup would be far better than starvation. > > >shipping foods grown here overseas not really all the econmocal. > > Most US food is shipped overseas. > > >I fail to see how it uses more fossil fuels than fuels it produces, > >please share. > > See: Pimentel, D. and M. Pimentel, Food, Energy, and Society, Revised > Edition. 1996: University Press of Colorado, chapter 19. (Or Google > "Pimentel") > > >And it will also help push new techniques and higher efficiency > >growing, so that will help. > > Not good. "High-efficiency agriculture" in the US means the rape and > permanent destruction of the land. See Pimentel, and chapter 16 of my > book. Essentially, U.S. corn production is a form of strip-mining, > where we destroy the topsoil and the water table. If we keep doing it > for a few hundred more years Iowa will look like present-day Iraq. > The arid US Great Plains are already in environmental peril. See: > > http://www.gprc.org/index.htm > > As I said in my book, agriculture is the most destructive industry on > earth and the sooner we get rid of it the better. We need to grow > food indoors. For one thing, this would use up thousands of times > less space, and with recycled water and nutrients from sewage, that > would consume no land or water. We need to get human beings out of > the ecosystem loop. Nature should only have to support wild animals, > not people or domesticated animals. > > Fishing and growing meat in live animals is also backwards, > dangerous, cruel and grossly inefficient. This kind of primitive > technology is long overdue for replacement, like the internal > combustion engine. > > Fortunately, the people at the New Harvest Research Organization > report progress in replacing meat: http://www.new-harvest.org/default.php > > - Jed Yer right Jed, and a fellow redneck told ya that! Hey there is nothing wrong with bein a redneck. Some of our best citizens are rednecks. I live in the heart of seed corn country and my equally redneck wife and I know first hand what happens when good land is ruined by contract. Here is where good farmers are offered a contract by a seed corn company to grow their 'intellectual property' year after dreary year. When the soil bank was effective, fencerows were allowed to grow. With the demise of it or the use of it, fencerows are destroyed. Even roads are encroached on. The usual excuse is that the fifty ton tractor with the eighty food plow array needs 'room to turn around'. Soil under corn cultivation year after year changes color. It may start out a deep rich brown or even black in mucklands, but it gradually lightens to a dull whitish tan with a high sand content. Also a high chemical fertilizer and chemical pesticide and herbicide content. It is not for nothing that sprays are advertised as having 'low atrazine carryover.... and now you know I live what I am talking about. I have seen the signs, in spanish only, warning the illegal immigrants that deadly danger "muy peligro......muerte...." lurks in the fields where they 'trabajo'. The signs there in english only say: "no trespassing or we will prosecute"! We have seen the farmhouses that sit empty as an unseen force vacates the countryside of all human life except for its lowest forms. The blank windows that used to frame young farm children now stare out at a wavy green desert of 'intellectual property' watered by expensive aluminum monsters that deliver water laden with poisons and biologically engineered and equally proprietary chemical fertilizers that water crops and roadways alike. It is against the law to spray over roads here in Michigan, but the law is ignored by both law giver and breaker with equal equanimity perhaps in the interest in keeping out the prying eyes of a perhaps 'overeducated' public. A way to clean up this mess may be exceedingly simple. A simple law that prohibited and criminalized the ownership of farmland in America by corporations and other foreigners. Another law that criminalized the ownership of more than a certain amount of land by one individual or partnership of individuals however tenuousely related would break down the large holdings. A third law that addressed the inhumane conditions of animal husbandry existant in our cattle and hog 'factories' and felonized this would go a long way toward concentrated waste source abatement. A fourth law that felonized the feeding of antibiotics to farm animals who were not sick, or to bioengineered new species with little or no disease resistance (germ farms), or to dairy cattle fed hormones to increase milk production at the price of lower immune systems.....would start to keep the specter of antibiotic resistance among pathogens a little more at bay. And a fifth law that would felonize the failure to vaccinate all livestock against a published and necessary list of preventable diseases for which those vaccines should be readily available. Perhaps another law would be required as well: make it a capital crime to export American food as long as there was a hungry American that needed it, and a felony to import any foreign food if any American farm could grow it or raise it. O yes, and corporations subject to these penalties could simply have their assets expropriated...seized...along with the assets of the corporate officers and major controlling interest stockholders. Maybe then Americans would return to run their own farms, confident that their markets would not be taken by foreign imports produced by slaves, or by domestic corporate ecoterrorists bent on raping ruining and running from what was good land in their shortsighted chase of monopoly profiteering. And the jobs and futures of their children would not be stolen by illegal immigrants. Did I say corporations are foreigners? Certainly! What corporation is recent memory has ever hesitated to ditch its American workers and/or facilities if a profiteering monetary ill gotten gain was available anywhere in the world. Corporations have no nationality! The sooner Americans and citizens of other nations realize that, the better off they will be. Corporations are ruining our land. Overconcentration of production and/or ownership is doing the same. For an instant lesson in both, go to your nearest 'hog factory' and see how our food lives before it gets to your table. Better than that, that is probably not your food! Your food is being grown in China, South America, or some other cheap and unsanitary 'low cost country' and imported here to be sold in grocery stores under a hidden label. "Distributed by _________corp" is common. You see, most Americans are too poor to pay for the high price commanded by real American food products. This is why so much American beef is exported to the wealthy of the world, and why your local meat merchant hides the meat cases in the back of his shop that say 'China' or 'Uruguay', etc. Beef in Japan can fetch over a hundred dollars a pound! Whale meat there is much cheaper. My local fast food sit-down restaurant with a sports bar and miniskirted underaged waitresses serves spicy spare-ribs. The ribs are almost as flat as a sheet of paper. I know of no pig or cow that has flat rib bones that have edges sharp enough to cut a dinner roll and a thickness no more than three milimeters and a width of twenty five millimeters. Some reader out there knows and is free to visit these places with apples on their signs as see for themselves.. Maybe some Australian but that is only a guess. In case some restaurant is considering lawsuit... the bones were saved! Perhaps a judge will find a bone of truth in that. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 08:44:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OGimlu018616; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:44:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OGikLO018595; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:44:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:44:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: GZzWFaEVM1l0klwoTE2DC9C6VVjtPLye7onLe8wLnPyRCaqOvSQI8HIbgspj4UtUQ0KB.vxEo6BA8m3FgLu1SGYtdVT.o8xBFpRa2GjxGW95jQ0YXypXooBSq8bsAJJhCT9.ExK45OeVXA-- Message-ID: <45B78CFA.3010300@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:44:42 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <190469.56095.qm@web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <035d01c73fd2$f52c1f20$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <035d01c73fd2$f52c1f20$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72232 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" > To: Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 3:46 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> Indeed both kinetic and magnetic field energies are >> increasing in the process. Is this a violation of energy >> conservation? No. Electric potential energy is decreasing >> somewhere, I'll let you find where :) >>> Michel >> >> The old "I know, but I don't want to tell you" trick? :) > > Not at all, I will give the answer eventually, say on Sunday if > nobody finds it before, which I doubt very much. The fun is in the > searching, I have given away far too much already :) Frankly I don't see what you think has been neglected. We've already touched on the fact that as electromagnets draw together, you get mechanical energy out _and_ the field inside each coil gets stronger, as a result of which the net field energy actually increases. But at the same time you're "paying the bill" in the form of back EMF in _both_ coils, and everything balances. Is that what you're referring to, or is it something else? As I already observed, the field shape of a macroscopic wire loop is more complex than an infinitesimal dipole which makes the analysis more confusing; when the coils are side by side the fields "outside" the loops tend to cancel while the fields "inside" reinforce. When you open the circuit, the energy you get back is from the field "inside". (Imagine a simple loop: as long as the surface over which you integrate -dB/dt to find the EMF is reasonably close to coplanar with the loop, all portions of the surface "outside" the loop must double back on themselves and their contributions will cancel. For a more complex surface the mental picture isn't as obvious and we need to fall back on Stokes' theorem to claim that it makes no difference.) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 08:50:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OGobuM021545; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:50:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OGoVv3021496; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:50:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:50:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=kdJ3SU4NQSuiTynlAlkUq/gEsSZCAa7vHgHzLqWchWNoqK8rDwTJMwk+m6HUDHKjBM73yp3hl8cRMdgtFW0pyoo+QRgYw0cWhlw1YeQd1eygrZ792hFaZlC8EH2KWab2NVslA/Nj0CaZxy33W2K/fIzN567zSMM0xg1PpM5DtXc=; X-YMail-OSG: 2k90WRUVM1li_GJrGH7U8rayJn8uvudDv6hgp6XkD2CUMDblMsMt0tv1IFFGBNeu9t5RlC0S.JFipP59Q_gcI.9CvZopy.qkf98zoxJnQHC16D7cvGMGSwDzxvKFBvWnVAg5yHdOn9UO3plNp4_OSFjpL7rItrr0KO.22PUQZO_FGVSw5h_SnNKKqAc- Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 08:50:25 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <860656.6671.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72233 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: [snip] > > They attract until they are perfectly aligned NS NS. > > When they're aligned > > N > | > | > | > | > S > N > | > | > | > | > S > > they can flip (rotate) so that they're aligned > > NS > || > || > || > || > SN Sure if you ***add*** energy Stephen. That takes energy. I have written far too many simulations to know. I have seen physical grids of permanent magnets on swivels and you are completely wrong on this. Magnet dipole moments prefer NS....NS. At curie point the magnetic dipoles moments are in chaos, mostly pointing in random directions. As the material cools down they begin to align in NS....NS to form a complete closed magnetic loop such as four domain wall. It is well known that the net magnetic field in such domains is intense with or without any applied magnetic field. At curie temperature the net magnetic field is considerably lower (higher magnetic entropy), which is why the material heats up when an applied magnetic field is added, hence MCE (Magnetocaloric Effect). BTW, your drawings of dipoles are way out of proportion. You are drawing cigarettes. An electron is not in the shape of a cigarette, lol. There is more magnetic attraction from max alignment --> NS....NS as compared to half alignment --> NS . . . . SN You first need to understand the field is twice the magnetic density in front as compared to sides of magnetic dipole moment. > NS > || > || > || > || > SN > > and, in fact, if you jiggled them a little and then let them have > their way, that's exactly what they'd tend to do. No chance Stephen. It simply doesn't happen in real life or in simulations. Please study the javascript code at --> http://www.netdenizen.com/emagnet/offaxis/iloopcalculator.htm Plug that equation in a simulation program and let her rip. You'll see it's in total agreement with real physical experiments. > It's a lower > energy configuration than the end-to-end configuration, which is most > apparent when you model them as magnetic monopoles stuck to the ends > of rods. > > In any case, if they're aligned NSNS they'll attract, and if they're > side by side aligned N/S S/N they'll attract, also The difference being one has higher magnetic entropy. This is really not a difficult problem and should not require computer simulation. Just think a little deeper enough. :-) > , and in both cases > the torque will be zero because the torque is proportional to the > mis-alignment of the dipole vector and the field vector. And, of > course, the field vector points straight out the end (parallel to the > dipole), but for positions "next to" the magnet it points opposite to > the direction of the dipole. > > > > >, and in that case the fields cancel as they > > approach. > > > > That's not true. When aligned they are NS NS. That > > is full magnetic alignment and they > > do *not* cancel. The net field increases. > > It increases versus a single magnet, that's true. But compared with > two distant magnets? I'm not so sure; we need to ask: No, the net magnetic field increases from two nearby fully aligned magnets as compared to if they were far apart. > Does the field increase or decrease as they're drawn apart along a > line? More of the fields overlap as they approach each other in fully alignment. > [ snip ] > > > Two aligned electromagnets do not repel. They > > *attract*. > > Arrgh. We're both right. If they're end-to-end they attract when > they're aligned. If they're side by side they attract when they're > misaligned. Correct, but what you seem to miss is the front magnetic density is twice as compared to the sides, which is why the PM's have less entropy in full alignment as compared to half alignment. > > That's backwards. :) As they attract and move closer > > there's back EMF, which consumes > > energy from the battery. > > Yes, no matter the alignment, we "pay" for the work done as they pull > themselves together, by pumping in electrical energy. Yes, but again that is not the point. We are trying to figure out where the energy comes from such a gain in both kinetic and magnetic energy. When you pull the magnets apart you are adding energy, but to what? This is still a mystery, one day to be solved when humanity learns exactly what sustains the electrons existence. Who know, may the energy comes from God. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 09:04:40 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OH4Pt9030069; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:04:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OH4M4Z030047; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:04:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:04:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 6yXNXNQVM1kZU74CbcKW00RHRkLFP__8AHjtuCMYPzCbsKM4RCY_0iL3exi1E5VHgcxNcrINrZ5FOSm79qAf0hjwETnmlY0VM_EWHMGMNXm1s.QqBYfba7u.kLylfzACPh0F6W9M57iqsEg- Message-ID: <45B79193.60606@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:04:19 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Yomiuri: Bush to promote ethanol in State of the Union References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070119132816.0362dbb0@mindspring.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070119143814.035ad5a8@mindspring.com> <200701241150.40997.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> In-Reply-To: <200701241150.40997.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72234 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks! Excellent and informative rant! I had a question. Standing Bear wrote: > The ribs are almost as flat as > a sheet of paper. I know of no pig or cow that has flat rib bones that have > edges sharp enough to cut a dinner roll and a thickness no more than three > millimeters and a width of twenty five millimeters. So, what creature has ribs like that? Any idea? Sheep? Horse? Dog? Cat? Farmworker? (er, ET, maybe?) Our cat's ribs are not an inch wide. My ribs feel like they're probably more rounded than you describe and thicker than 3 mm (but they're inside where I can't get at them easily). I haven't got a sheep or dog here to check, but in any case it doesn't really sound like either of those. There's no large scale CAFO-type horse farming in the U.S. AFAIK so horsemeat would tend to be more expensive than the cow meat, which should keep it out of fast food places. Sheep tends to be more expensive than cow also, for that matter. I'm at a loss. I can't guess. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 09:06:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OH5mcp002663; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:05:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OH5kRf002627; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:05:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:05:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=O0XTjkZPcHwifw4xyh2G/bOOz6FUESkvzyxtgSoIK30w2zRoZLT/30aEOOOOVzcwgXa+Xu/YuVLSFmylz1h9ye0kBylTP6Loi2uS0sOTx2W/omBydT74impkrYAsBY07qyKz0rK9nehMWKtY5AmWJ7Js5tGew+Lqw2Z+IKzDsfI=; X-YMail-OSG: gbB2lN4VM1nHisZyTFfmO4jJ.WJqGxyokp5tcFf.IyKmjxjzjZMeH9vuub3JO9tT1cQcRCFGlqKffiweXHeP5zl52oCaUjlbh809rz1J08Kcv9spnCsyVc7KKQP_mggCcjr2pS7LndiMYlvgKdExW6GqwCR.CAmUB8.FHd8nj3ZOFV.CtinXWfuh9RrXRTiuXBjm6g-- Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:05:42 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <17296.12750.qm@web62414.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72235 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 3:46 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> Indeed both kinetic and magnetic field energies are >> increasing in the process. Is this >> a violation of energy conservation? No. Electric >> potential energy is decreasing somewhere, >> I'll let you find where :) >>> Michel >> >> The old "I know, but I don't want to tell you" trick? >> :) > > Not at all, I will give the answer eventually, say on Sunday if nobody finds it before, which I doubt very much. The fun is in the searching, I have given away far too much already :) > > Your variations don't change the issue BTW, so let's stick to your original experiment. > > Michel We're not saying it violates the conservation of energy, but rather asking where the energy comes from. Anything's possible so we'll have to wait for your answer Sunday unless someone discovers it. It's probably a QM answer, but in asking over a dozen QM physicists none to date have found the answer. Stephen, do you have any clue what Michel might be talking about? Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 09:22:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OHMMkP007815; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:22:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OHMKVS007797; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:22:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:22:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=UjZ4VNVxLUPjtAOxWGIwr/wUkr2rGkUOUCs8sGnsqmuNCKkZAH0Cm4hb1RpSkiCY+gfUDBsLCQA9RB4LDSlZTm6MOftbBHsnC4L56OVUk3N5szkhJVtDaJDz1inbg68mHGQoHJP45wpNR5gnHorh+HKOdkpF3MYWbokhHEIQdmI=; X-YMail-OSG: Kk1bB9AVM1ln7O2dgqbule0XsQdvmdHXawO22eX1pQLi_9IvshxlWT90NJNomfvb4Q-- Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:22:19 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <225961.81050.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72237 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 3:46 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> Indeed both kinetic and magnetic field energies are >> increasing in the process. Is this >> a violation of energy conservation? No. Electric >> potential energy is decreasing somewhere, >> I'll let you find where :) >>> Michel >> >> The old "I know, but I don't want to tell you" trick? >> :) > > Not at all, I will give the answer eventually, say on Sunday if nobody finds it before, which I doubt very much. The fun is in the searching, I have given away far too much already :) > > Your variations don't change the issue BTW, so let's stick to your original experiment. > > Michel Michel, Why don't you tell us now. It's probably some effect we're not aware of or know very little about. If it is such an effect then I'll plug it in my latest simulation program and see what happens. I'm no QM expert, which is why I asked dozen+ QM physicists, but do you know something they're not aware of? Why wait for Sunday? We want to know, lol! :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 09:22:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OHMhtJ013060; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:22:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OHHJnx010731; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:17:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:17:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=UZxpTU8gcVx68a6o6V6srhtFd86ZQBzPZOyiPRgm8RofDjVQGVqWy+9hTJlBhRSz0Dqw1PICK09Pb5YdXwm3naHXOXzHTekpdyZ0Yaao/Bhs/ND68G4C/HbRLMdWyU03UcfC21rC+rSLZA//ujscOeyFSAuCfbTri2vIt0RozgE=; X-YMail-OSG: jezzPf4VM1lAjrsxPjt7wkmvLddNvx.fDTFSIdxXzs2kZk86o2HMGo0REjPOIRk7hswwoJDcWi4cq4ma1D6RaKDoYFw1jwfA2FFNqPwxwmRv4dAnlQw- Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:17:17 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <20070123164801.16377.qmail@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <127496.22585.qm@web32814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72236 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Well not quite entirely, the current loop > consisting in the orbiting motion has got to > contribute _some_ magnetic dipole moment to the > atom, > however small this effect may be > compared to that of the rotating motion. > > > That's very true. Most of the field in ferromagnetic > atoms comes from intrinsic electron > spin, not orbital spin. For example, in Alnico 5 > 94% > comes from intrinsic electron spin. > In Sm2Co17 63% from intrinsic electron spin. > Paramagnetic materials is another story, > but it's relatively weak. > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance Hi Paul, some interesting facts here on (ferro)magnetism. I am not well schooled in physics, but I remember reading a book on magnetism where this fact was brought on, that magnetism was created both by "cohered" orbital electron orbits, and also the actual spin of the electron while in orbit. (Here refered to as intrinsic spin} I think it was also noted that it was the single "unpaired" electron orbit responsible for the magnetism due to orbital spin. For every electron in orbit, the magnetic force it creates reacts via lenz law to create a magnetic force in opposition; with the net result that every clockwise electron spin is paired with a counterclockwise spin, so the net effect of these two spins are magnetic cancellation. Thus ferromagnetic materials should have an ODD number of electron orbits so that the one unpaired spin can be "cohered" to all spin at the same three dimensional angle among a domain sample of many of these spins. I am somewhat confused here, are the magnetic dipoles here referred to a set of these opposite spinning electron orbits? My next question regards macroscopic spin. If we understand gyroscopic laws a spin within a spin can have a precessional force imposed on it. A good demonstration of this is what happens when a person sitting on a revolving stool holds the axle of a revolving bicycle wheel. If the revolving wheel is initially vertical, and the person tilts that wheel to a horizontal orientation, a torque is translated to the stool so that the force applied to change the angle of the spin itself is translated to cause the person on the stool to rotate. Now suppose this stool itself is filled with hundreds of gyroscopes on gimbals so that the spin itself is allowed to change its orientation of spin. And all of these gyroscopic spins are oriented in random directional spins in three dimensions.(an analogy for an unmagnetised ferromagnetic material) Now suppose then we externally rotate this stool holding all of these random spins in three dimensions. Would it not be true that some of the spins would change their direction of spin due to precessional gyroscopic forces caused by the external rotation, so that the external spin,(macroscopic) influenced a majority of internal(Molecular domain electron spins) to become somewhat cohered spins in two dimensions intead of three? The net result would be that the macroscopic spin coheres molcular gryscopic electron spins so that a side effect of macroscopic ferrmagnetic spin on a disc like structure is magnetism! In support of this thesis is the results of spinning an alternator with an unenergized electromagnet field. A 2 volt stator output that can enable a 1.5 Amp consumption on a single shorted phase at a rotation causing 480 hz were the results I obtained with a smaller Delco Remy car alternator with the diodes removed, all without the field even being energized. In fact it may be somewhat amazing to see what meausures must be taken so that zero power output is available from a spinning AC alternator whose (primary) field has not been energized. It is seen that if the DC current is sent through the field in one preferred direction, more stator voltage results, and this is logical since one direction of field current would establish a (electrically induced)magnetic field in harmony with the pre-existant rotationally created magnetic field. If the direction of the field current was made in the opposite direction to oppose the rotationally created magnetic field, the output of the alternator can be made to approach zero. Amazingly we must send energy into the field to make the alternator quit producing an output voltage. If the incorrect direction of current through the field were then increased beyond the zero output margin, the alternator once again produces voltage, but somewhat more innefficiently then if the correct direction of DC field current were used. When this was done, and then the field amperage again reduced to the point where it formerly cancelled the rotational magnetism so that zero output is shown from the stator outputs, now it delivers a different result of delivering power, so that we might conclude that rotation itself preserves as a sort of memory its previous electromagnetic influence. These effects were previously elaborated in some of my yahoo group postings; Amazing Rotational Magnetism Tests Sun Sep 19, 2004 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/1291 "what I did here was to compare the field energy requirements at the point of .25 A field current. This required a two volt DC voltage across field to accomplish from the ordinary variac set up I use to energize the field. This implies that at 2 volts, the field appears as 8 ohms, to allow .25 A conduction,even though the field measures some 20 ohms when it is not rotating. This is the meaning of "forward emf", where ordinary AC motors experience the opposite effect, the AC resistance initally appears at its normal impedance level then, but as soon as rotation commences a far higher AC resistance appears due to back emf making a voltage in reverse to the source voltage. Here somehow magically however the field looses its DC resistance, and in fact if it didnt do that, it would be especially hard to make the DC field /stator resonance feedback loop even work! But the purpose here was to compare direction of field currents to the attached load of a 2 inch water cell output. When the .25 A of field amperage is in the correct direction inputing we see about 5.5 average stator volts appearing to allow 4.7 VDC @ .85A through two inch cell Reversing the direction of field current we then see a ~ stator voltage of 3.5 VAC enabling 3.7DCV @ .54 A through cell. So here it is easy to show that a lesser output is made with equal field energies, and that a correct polarity input for field is desirable." Dispelling the Remanent Magnetism of Field Rotor Theory Sat Apr 17, 2004 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/1051 "Remarkably The actual DC resistance of the field is affected in a very non-linear manner prior to the point where electromagnetism of the field rotor exceeds the pre-existant rotational magnetism. Initially the field appears as a much higher DC resistance than is actually measured without motion of the field rotor taking place." "Once the field is ACTUALLY energized, and then turned off, we see an increase of (no field) parametric readings. THAT is that totality of remanent magnetisation effect, which of course is lost after a certain time after motion of the field rotor has ceased. It is ONLY that amount of increase that should be attributed to remanent magnetism of the field pole faces, and of course the ordinary parametric levels of operation are then seen when that remanent magnetism ceases to be present..." Now in finality I would ask if the above is beleivable, shouldnt rotational magnetism be more evident in materials where the magnetic effect is made more from orbital spin rather then intrinsic spin? Can you comment whether hard or soft iron would be more characterized by orbital spin rather then intrinsic? Thanx for any answers here. Sincerely HDN Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 10:03:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OI38lS000457; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:03:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OI323J000413; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:03:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:03:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=3jq8E6jOsDxNGxBm3lQp43vs2wv+QWPP2g3NrTDYwTdnRDAERHDetf8ngL9oEcIVe6RjsiDdbY6kBlVe07B3hYHwSs52cnjb2/4mPocFRn0ZBxcSFmDwE4SxIfUXEMXxVFQ0TPtdzrny6VkKcDcJrM+OuzOiFTz5nKBzeAagkuI= ; X-YMail-OSG: 382zU30VM1m285Qt30dQfj.paSpwOj.xX26.NW367HCoGrZlfSufmMVvKbo8mtxFHBEdW8tvM.ZHINrxEasH6ecZadwRknCNEyW4KoDwvWSAYsI0Urk- Message-ID: <45B79F4F.1080508@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:02:55 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0OI30xu000379 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72238 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Vo Counter-Spin ? Status: O X-Status: Short story with a twisted-pair "moral"... In the realm of online participants who both seek, enjoy and often perform (in garage labs worldwide) "simple but meaningful experiments," Vortex may be among the top www sites.... even if (the downside) the group delves into mysticism too often for many tastes. I suspect that the most cogent and poetic expression of this sentiment (and the built-in contradictions of science) was quoted by Frank Grimer some time ago from the wrtings of one the finest (but unsung) characters ever in English Lit: that being G K Chersterton: The real trouble with this world of ours is not that it is an unreasonable world, nor even that it is a reasonable one. The commonest kind of trouble is that it is nearly reasonable, but not quite. Life is not an illogicality; yet it is a trap for logicians. It looks just a little more mathematical and regular than it is... So true, especially when one tends to immerse oneself in only the anomalies. More specifically: Helical flow (the generalized vortex) often is associated with some of these anomalies. Some of which are more profound than others. Baer's law (or hypothesis as it is largely ignored today) is one of the less profound - which says: Due to the rotation of the earth, rivers on the northern hemisphere will "dig" mostly on the Easterly or right bank, which becomes steeper over time. It is more conspicuous for rivers running north like the Nile, which have changed course far from the ruins of ancient cities, but even the Euphrates and Tigris show the effect. Other related helical or anomalous "flow phenomena" have been famously described by, among others, Albert Einstein. Would the smart-stoner himself - Einstein - have been a Vo- participant ? Maybe, as he certainly loved to dabble in anomalies. To wit: Einstein's 'Tea Leaves' paper: "The Cause of the Formation of Meanders in the Courses of Rivers and of the So-Called Baer’s Law" which appeared in 1926 in "Die Naturwissenschaften". http://www.ucalgary.ca/~kmuldrew/river.html More recently, the Discovery Channel has gotten into the act, relative to the tea-leaf part of this paper : http://tinyurl.com/2ax7o5 or http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/01/19/tealeaves_hea.html?category=technology&guid=20070119093000 Einstein's explanation of why tea leaves accumulate at the bottom of a stirred cup, instead of around the periphery, has possible alternative energy implications....as does Baer's Law and the phenomenon of chirality -- but biochemistry comes first (as always). Dr Leslie Yeo (in the Discovery Channel episode) made a key advance in research on Biomicrofluidics - a couple of years ago, as the site above indicates. Microfluids is a subject which has appeared here many times, esp. regarding so-called "polywater." But let's don't go there now. Yeo was using electric fields and the needle emission effect to spray tiny drops of liquid from the tip of a needle. This is not unlike the situation which can occur in a hybrid fuel injection system, or in other relevant systems. Yeo's investigation revealed that the voltage across the needle was creating a wind of denser charged particles that was blowing at an angle across the surface of the liquid and stirring it but accumulating in the center of the discharge. "To begin with this baffled me," he said, "because I had expected the particles to spin outwards, in the same way that you're pushed toward a car door as you go around a corner." His curiosity eventually led him to a paper Einstein published in 1926, which explains the paradox using the example of a cup of tea. Einstein illustrated the 'tea leaf paradox' by showing that friction at the bottom of a cup suppresses that outward force and causes an opposing force that pushes the tea leaves toward the center. Curiously perhaps this is the explanation for another thorny problem - how to separate out a denser (more valuable) component from a miscible liquid (water)... or even a less dense (such as the ethanol from a "mash". "Evaluation of Nondistillation Ethanol Separation Processes" is a key but "dated" paper on this general subject. It is dated because, for one thing, it does not focus on the implications tea leaves. It is also generally ignored. Given that most non-food biomass, including algae and cellulose, can be "fermented" (loosely defined to mean a secondary life-process which converts it into specific simple chemicals), the role of enrichment of the intermediate fermentation liquid (the "mash") is and will be a prime area of R&D for achieving energy self-sufficiency in the coming decade. If we can't pull this off in the next ten years ... (oops let's don't go there). Twisting "Moral" of this not-so-short story: The Mr. Robinsons of the NWO should be whispering in the ear of all new college "Graduates" that the "one word of advise" necessary for success in the evolving US economy is: "Microfludics ?" .... ...or maybe it's just: "vortex" Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 10:47:28 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OIlLD6006854; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:47:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OIlCg9006802; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:47:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:47:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on mail0.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:47:07 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj@orionworks.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_fa6b802e0708cc95e81e62e9e3390ee6" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070124184707.244FBDA614@mail0.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72239 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Microsoft in hot water over Wikipedia edits Status: O X-Status: --=_fa6b802e0708cc95e81e62e9e3390ee6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vorts, See the following article recently placed out at CNN.COM http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/internet/01/24/microsoft.wikipedia.ap/index.html http://preview.tinyurl.com/yvbeov I bet Jed will find parts of it amusing. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_fa6b802e0708cc95e81e62e9e3390ee6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vorts,

See the following article recently placed out at CNN.COM

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/internet/01/24/microsoft.wikipedia.ap/index.ht= ml

http://preview.tinyurl.com/yvbeov

I bet Jed will find parts of it amusing.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_fa6b802e0708cc95e81e62e9e3390ee6-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 10:57:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OIvBNT010839; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:57:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OIv9kW010820; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:57:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:57:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 8KSBFSMVM1mJqaAwxYqhmCdkPmdaOsr3vBy0gKXjWb50iN06qgMNSspchKt1bKeLeXoRhTg8Us289geqtDIK9j9AitgWNRgDKEKnpbtUzxTp4.XTgMjwR.03j422GUNkILSZ724wFM81dv45eiVJudvvskiHPr_E6tcdyh_344yLXPi4v7VJA6Lmilvb Message-ID: <45B7AC01.1040101@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:57:05 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <860656.6671.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <860656.6671.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72240 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > [snip] > > > They attract until they are perfectly aligned NS > NS. > > > > When they're aligned > > > > N > > | > > | > > | > > | > > S > > N > > | > > | > > | > > | > > S > > > > they can flip (rotate) so that they're aligned > > > > NS > > || > > || > > || > > || > > SN > > > Sure if you ***add*** energy Stephen. That takes > energy. I have written far too many > simulations to know. I have seen physical grids of > permanent magnets on swivels and you > are completely wrong on this. Magnet dipole moments > prefer NS....NS. Really?? Sigh.... That's what I get for relying on intuition. I certainly had not done any calculations to show which way they should end up -- the potential energy and force calculations by themselves don't say. And we don't have any sufficiently whizzy bar magnets here to let me test it macroscopically. (But see below in this note -- uh, oh, it sure looks like you're right...) > BTW, your drawings of > dipoles are way out of proportion. You > are drawing cigarettes. An electron is not in the > shape of a cigarette, lol. Well, yeah, they're kind of stubby, aren't they. Not quite like a bar magnet, not at all... > > It increases versus a single magnet, that's true. > But compared with > > two distant magnets? I'm not so sure; we need to > ask: > > No, the net magnetic field increases from two nearby > fully aligned magnets as compared to > if they were far apart. > > > > Does the field increase or decrease as they're > drawn apart along a > > line? > > More of the fields overlap as they approach each other > in fully alignment. So it appears. And certainly the result is far larger field energy than the half-aligned case, however it may compare with the case where they're far apart. > > [ snip ] > > > > > Two aligned electromagnets do not repel. They > > > *attract*. > > > > Arrgh. We're both right. If they're end-to-end > they attract when > > they're aligned. If they're side by side they > attract when they're > > misaligned. > > Correct, but what you seem to miss is the front > magnetic density is twice as compared to > the sides, Ummm hmmmm so it is, the field strength ratio at the end versus the side is something like 2:1, and, if the dipole is allowed to align with the field, the net force it feels is always in the direction of increasing field strength. Hmmm hmmm hmmm...... this seems to imply pretty strongly that you're right about how two permanent magnets should like to line up, too. I hate it when I'm wrong. > which is why the PM's have less entropy in > full alignment as compared to half > alignment. Sorry, my thermo is very weak -- second semester freshman year introductory physical chemistry course level, at best. So this statement goes over my head. > > > > > > That's backwards. :) As they attract and move > closer > > > there's back EMF, which consumes > > > energy from the battery. > > > > Yes, no matter the alignment, we "pay" for the work > done as they pull > > themselves together, by pumping in electrical > energy. > > > Yes, but again that is not the point. We are trying > to figure out where the energy comes > from such a gain in both kinetic and magnetic energy. > When you pull the magnets apart you > are adding energy, but to what? This is still a > mystery, one day to be solved when > humanity learns exactly what sustains the electrons > existence. Who know, may the energy > comes from God. :-) > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 11:03:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OJ3RxB013756; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:03:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OJ3Pji013740; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:03:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:03:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 1ms2NSsVM1myNn4CmOKXQdWeTI1MjTbNen_5IUL.fTEiPlIMrkqf0AMvGW6bmRsr4XtH9bbBfO0ZRzIjR_tsz9drHPAntilz8NMbqpSJ0geIgq0ywlUM0fuaLtd3nwx.S5EBNzfrCWtfTE0- Message-ID: <45B7AD7B.2090204@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:03:23 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <860656.6671.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <45B7AC01.1040101@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <45B7AC01.1040101@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72241 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: [regarding NS-NS versus N/S S/N alignment preference:] > And we don't > have any sufficiently whizzy bar magnets here to let me test it > macroscopically. More fool me. Bar magnets are the wrong shape, but we do have a set of magnetic marbles, and I already knew that they align nose to nose, not side to side. Just didn't think through the implications. Sigh... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 11:23:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OJMjd3022656; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:22:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OJMhq9022628; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:22:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:22:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=Z7FhX+ac9CRml6F3dbiXXsx4JGq0xaTScYQxn0R+jo670o4j5a9sssiOfQcwQ2D2IKI56L0EGsQweLSStFiukvlJpXmUWZmTvH8DyhFJNCNCvWAsvfCz0s5NSmx1MXH6Z3Mf6kaQ8Gv4DFU0Y26pEnYYdPrf9HpVi6JA6/e/WNc=; X-YMail-OSG: 4UXAMUMVM1lEZKCUFSpoC7aUBrdD6RrLv.YC.faIYq2YOO8cYPPJGWiyJ4uI1WoWZvBMhUSQdImIRGhWxrMSRBHQC6WW1bZIG7TM3WiyMicpdWVDMHO4OGdzB7_mvtFY.cbvSoaot5lC1g-- Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:22:41 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <399280.62797.qm@web62407.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72242 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Paul wrote: >> Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: >> [snip] >> > > They attract until they are perfectly aligned NS >> NS. >> > >> > When they're aligned >> > >> > N >> > | >> > | >> > | >> > | >> > S >> > N >> > | >> > | >> > | >> > | >> > S >> > >> > they can flip (rotate) so that they're aligned >> > >> > NS >> > || >> > || >> > || >> > || >> > SN >> >> >> Sure if you ***add*** energy Stephen. That takes >> energy. I have written far too many simulations to know. I have seen >> physical grids of >> permanent magnets on swivels and you are completely wrong on this. >> Magnet dipole moments >> prefer NS....NS. > > Really?? Sigh.... > > That's what I get for relying on intuition. It seems intuition is probably the most important tool in theoretical research. Einstein spent his entire life trying to find an intuitive theory. :-) A good process seems to be intuition followed by theory followed by experimentation. > I certainly had not done > any calculations to show which way they should end up -- the potential > energy and force calculations by themselves don't say. And we don't > have any sufficiently whizzy bar magnets here to let me test it > macroscopically. (But see below in this note -- uh, oh, it sure looks > like you're right...) There you go again with your cigarette dipoles. ;-) Who knows, perhaps the cigarette is the true shape of the electron, but I doubt it. QM claims the electron has no physic extend beyond the Poynting vector. > > BTW, your drawings of >> dipoles are way out of proportion. You are drawing cigarettes. An >> electron is not in the >> shape of a cigarette, lol. > > Well, yeah, they're kind of stubby, aren't they. Not quite like a bar > magnet, not at all... > > >> > It increases versus a single magnet, that's true. But compared with >> > two distant magnets? I'm not so sure; we need to >> ask: >> >> No, the net magnetic field increases from two nearby >> fully aligned magnets as compared to if they were far apart. >> >> >> > Does the field increase or decrease as they're >> drawn apart along a >> > line? >> >> More of the fields overlap as they approach each other >> in fully alignment. > > So it appears. And certainly the result is far larger field energy than > the half-aligned case, however it may compare with the case where > they're far apart. Here's perhaps a simple method of viewing the issue. Consider two loops of current carrying wire in free space. Consider the fact the dipoles will slowly dissipate their energy by means of radiation resistance; i.e., dipole KE gained is lost over time. Ultimately the wires will end up side by side, like two donuts hugging each other. Remember currents flowing in the same direction attract. All the current carrying wire cares about is getting as close to the other wire as possible. The closest orientation is face to face, thus nearly forming one wire loop. >> > [ snip ] >> > >> > > Two aligned electromagnets do not repel. They >> > > *attract*. >> > >> > Arrgh. We're both right. If they're end-to-end >> they attract when >> > they're aligned. If they're side by side they >> attract when they're >> > misaligned. >> >> Correct, but what you seem to miss is the front >> magnetic density is twice as compared to the sides, > > Ummm hmmmm so it is, the field strength ratio at the end versus the side > is something like 2:1, and, if the dipole is allowed to align with the > field, the net force it feels is always in the direction of increasing > field strength. For a point charge it is. Of course if for example the dipole is 1 cm in diameter and you're testing the field right up against the wire millimeters away then it doesn't make sense you'll get 2:1 ratio. Did you try to field dipole moment calculator? http://www.netdenizen.com/emagnet/offaxis/iloopcalculator.htm Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 11:37:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OJbHqn003348; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:37:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OJbGdt003325; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:37:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:37:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=qIU7i10ZSxE20aWZSyxzgR+gxKIgqagGzjnLSYArGnf+FL43718zuiEix28Mkail12vTPB/1uHy1JOgfz2y+NqZTXbns+J2B0a2ByA5sebxIm2D9LjhZBi/FRIxgag82qKS6wwJRFMwGgZkuHTCZWfCH3CcZSBZ8apk7i2LAFrs= ; X-YMail-OSG: yOt8sSgVM1lqo_WRFHEnqWOe24HohOHrLwdVORKqbooigx5cU3_wwrOtfUghT_G79DcYF2eO32jhD.KxBRPxaTokOWMlkX9DUr48YB5U5r3K0vws54Gu1g_89oal.kz7EJ0L5w-- Message-ID: <45B7B564.1090007@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:37:08 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <399280.62797.qm@web62407.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <399280.62797.qm@web62407.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72243 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Status: O X-Status: Speaking of blatant physics-scofflaws, this fellow should be ticketed- as an incorrigible perpetual offender by the Sci-police: http://www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/magneticDev/finsrud/finsrud.htm or - straight to the vid. http://www.reidarfinsrud.no/sider/mobile/knapper/download.gif From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 11:59:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OJxKCC017066; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:59:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OJxED0017029; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:59:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:59:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: lfOtVx0VM1nSCr9yLxctYUu7I9Zw2yrO1wvar6uZXEc_R0b1QzrpVPb2_WrbYaIh5fHqUgwec.vL0jR0qeuIBLdUfK7Q9fn4Art4RHDqRHtngpdDyGx3q1e7AA7IfI06_bY7MZJtIEysy3k- Message-ID: <45B7BA8F.2020809@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:59:11 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <399280.62797.qm@web62407.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <399280.62797.qm@web62407.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72244 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > And we don't > > have any sufficiently whizzy bar magnets here to > > let me test it > > macroscopically. > > There you go again with your cigarette dipoles. ;-) OK, I finally got the point WRT the shape... > > > > Ummm hmmmm so it is, the field strength ratio at > > the end versus the side > > is something like 2:1, and, if the dipole is > > allowed to align with the > > field, the net force it feels is always in the > > direction of increasing > > field strength. > > For a point charge it is. Of course if for example > the dipole is 1 cm in diameter and > you're testing the field right up against the wire > millimeters away then it doesn't make > sense you'll get 2:1 ratio. > Did you try to field > dipole moment calculator? > http://www.netdenizen.com/emagnet/offaxis/iloopcalculator.htm Yes, I took a look at it, but I already knew the shape of the dipole field, at least for small dipoles. In geometrized cgs units it's http://www.physicsinsights.org/dipole_field_1.html#eqn-16 which is pretty clear. The primary point I missed was that my "mental model" of a tiny dipole wasn't spherically symmetric, so rotations also involved major changes in |r|. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 12:10:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OKAULs025999; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:10:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OKAQIo025936; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:10:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:10:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070124145924.03621250@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:10:14 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: Microsoft in hot water over Wikipedia edits In-Reply-To: <20070124184707.244FBDA614@mail0.mx.core.com> References: <20070124184707.244FBDA614@mail0.mx.core.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72245 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OrionWorks wrote: >http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/internet/01/24/microsoft.wikipedia.ap/index.html > >http://preview.tinyurl.com/yvbeov > >I bet Jed will find parts of it amusing. That is funny. The last line quoting Wikipedia top dog Jimmy Wells is telling: "Wales said the proper course would have been for Microsoft to write or commission a 'white paper' on the subject with its interpretation of the facts, post it to an outside Web site and then link to it in the Wikipedia articles' discussion forums. 'It seems like a much better, transparent, straightforward way,' Wales said." Wikipedia can hardly claim to be transparent and straightforward. Once again we see their disdain for experts and authoritative information. They want Microsoft to put a link where no one will find it, in the discussion section. If this article is about Microsoft products or software, I think they should establish a non-erasable link in the article itself, pointing to whatever white paper or other content they choose. Corporations and people should have a right to respond to attacks by their critics. The problem is that Wikipedia has grown large and powerful, and the world is now beginning to demand that they act like something like a public utility, and that they be accountable to the public at large. The same thing happened to the railroad and telephone companies back in the 19th century, and to Microsoft after it grew all powerful in the 1990s. The same thing will soon happen to Google, which is poised to take over a large part of the Internet and most of the profits. http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2007/pulpit_20070119_001510.html - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 12:21:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OKKtmH031761; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:20:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OKKski031743; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:20:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:20:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:19:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Vo Counter-Spin ? In-reply-to: <45B79F4F.1080508@pacbell.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0OKKqgH031727 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72246 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Short story with a twisted-pair "moral"... > > In the realm of online participants who both seek, enjoy and often > perform (in garage labs worldwide) "simple but meaningful experiments," > Vortex may be among the top www sites.... even if (the downside) the > group delves into mysticism too often for many tastes. > > I suspect that the most cogent and poetic expression of this sentiment > (and the built-in contradictions of science) was quoted by Frank Grimer > some time ago from the wrtings of one the finest (but unsung) characters > ever in English Lit: that being G K Chersterton: > > The real trouble with this world of ours is not that it is an > unreasonable world, nor even that it is a reasonable one. The > commonest kind of trouble is that it is nearly reasonable, but > not quite. Life is not an illogicality; yet it is a trap for > logicians. It looks just a little more mathematical and regular > than it is... > > So true, especially when one tends to immerse oneself in only the > anomalies. > > More specifically: Helical flow (the generalized vortex) often is > associated with some of these anomalies. Some of which are more profound > than others. > > Baer's law (or hypothesis as it is largely ignored today) is one of the > less profound - which says: Due to the rotation of the earth, rivers on > the northern hemisphere will "dig" mostly on the Easterly or right bank, > which becomes steeper over time. It is more conspicuous for rivers > running north like the Nile, which have changed course far from the > ruins of ancient cities, but even the Euphrates and Tigris show the effect. > > Other related helical or anomalous "flow phenomena" have been famously > described by, among others, Albert Einstein. Would the smart-stoner > himself - Einstein - have been a Vo- participant ? > > Maybe, as he certainly loved to dabble in anomalies. To wit: Einstein's > 'Tea Leaves' paper: "The Cause of the Formation of Meanders in the > Courses of Rivers and of the So-Called Baerąs Law" which appeared in > 1926 in "Die Naturwissenschaften". > > http://www.ucalgary.ca/~kmuldrew/river.html > > More recently, the Discovery Channel has gotten into the act, relative > to the tea-leaf part of this paper : > > http://tinyurl.com/2ax7o5 or > http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/01/19/tealeaves_hea.html?category=technolog > y&guid=20070119093000 > > Einstein's explanation of why tea leaves accumulate at the bottom of a > stirred cup, instead of around the periphery, has possible alternative > energy implications....as does Baer's Law and the phenomenon of > chirality -- but biochemistry comes first (as always). > > Dr Leslie Yeo (in the Discovery Channel episode) made a key advance in > research on Biomicrofluidics - a couple of years ago, as the site above > indicates. Microfluids is a subject which has appeared here many times, > esp. regarding so-called "polywater." But let's don't go there now. > > Yeo was using electric fields and the needle emission effect to spray > tiny drops of liquid from the tip of a needle. This is not unlike the > situation which can occur in a hybrid fuel injection system, or in other > relevant systems. Yeo's investigation revealed that the voltage across > the needle was creating a wind of denser charged particles that was > blowing at an angle across the surface of the liquid and stirring it but > accumulating in the center of the discharge. > > "To begin with this baffled me," he said, "because I had expected the > particles to spin outwards, in the same way that you're pushed toward a > car door as you go around a corner." His curiosity eventually led him to > a paper Einstein published in 1926, which explains the paradox using the > example of a cup of tea. > > Einstein illustrated the 'tea leaf paradox' by showing that friction at > the bottom of a cup suppresses that outward force and causes an opposing > force that pushes the tea leaves toward the center. > Einstein's explanation is clever but has it every been tested? Is that how liquid stirred in a tea cup actually flows? (see fig. 1 at http://www.ucalgary.ca/~kmuldrew/river.html ) Anyway thanks for mentioning this 'paradox'. I now have another example of anomalous motion which I will place in the same category as the motion of a curling stone. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 13:14:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OLERA5010158; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:14:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OLEObW010131; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:14:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:14:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=un6joTcqD0xMxRcGBVilOCuVeoQdi+5PIQ4UPVMflNwp2pmC+exL95BcPBliQn6CynpYViDC64sNWmH8oiJ2+WSsjoC4dT757ySdHbaKWGlJXR05KJVh2tnabqk4sFwcXxRzOM4KqKPj3Fifx1u6gQW7GKsJDyDkDCeuH/LWJ9c= ; X-YMail-OSG: dXSD2IQVM1klsOdkPO7CqjlRrHibpohfDDei4eoU7rREGKAdFAbVcrMIzXN9BuIdJnxKkiEyT_EC3g5.SmAxGOHLEbVsqigTLbDToX.Z_7KySAsZz4s- Message-ID: <45B7CC2A.5060704@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:14:18 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Vo Counter-Spin ? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72247 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Einstein's explanation is clever but has it every been tested? Is that how > liquid stirred in a tea cup actually flows? (see fig. 1 at > http://www.ucalgary.ca/~kmuldrew/river.html ) Dunno for sure. But for the heck of it (and as a potential range of experiments for science fair participants) I am trying to enrich the ethanol content of some cheap wine with none other than tea leaves. Will also try various other oily "media". I understand that this is unrelated to you interest in the "flow" properties, but just forgot to mention it before. This technique should work if the leaves (or any other material) absorbs ethanol preferentially, displacing water. The "media" (i.e. tea leaves or whatever) will then be removed by the filtering and can then pressed to see if the liquid coming out later is enriched in alcohol. There are many related patents on this technique already. A good resource is: http://www.chemicalvision2020.org/pdfs/sepmap.pdf As we know, distillation is energy intensive, and it is not always possible to use waste heat, and even when waste heat is used - why not get 4-5 times more distillate for the same heat input? By increasing the ethanol content of a fermentation mash from an average of 10% to just 20% cuts the energy requirement almost in half, and certainly there should be plenty of "water displacing" materials in nature. SIDE note: The "WD" of the ubiquitous spray-lube called WD-40 stands for "water-displacing." ... and next to duct-tape as a stop-gap remedy, what real-man doesn't purchase WD-40 by the case as cure-all for nearly every rub, as they say. You can guess what I will spray my tea leaves with in the next run Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 13:33:25 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OLX7JB020620; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:33:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OLX5qD020589; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:33:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:33:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:31:27 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-reply-to: <190469.56095.qm@web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <7sLl1C.A.gBF.QC9tFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72248 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Variation #2: > And the final blow to your theory (no offense > intended) is the fact that two electromagnet > dipoles that accelerate toward each other > ***consumes*** energy from the current source, > especially if you negatively or positively charge both > electromagnets. This clearly > demonstrates the entire *net* process requires energy. > ... or that for this instance of acceleration, a supply of "energy" is not required by nature. Must nature require energy whenever we require energy? Must nature always mirror our classical/quantum mechanical fantasies of her? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 14:00:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0OM0G3x012321; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:00:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0OM0D1P012309; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:00:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:00:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:58:38 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-reply-to: <032801c73fa8$fc04ff30$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72249 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The books must always balance in double entry bookkeeping. Double entry bookkeeping was devised well before classical mechanics. It may have given credence to concepts like the conservation energy. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 17:47:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0P1kx5v004017; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:46:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0P1kv57003999; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:46:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:46:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002201c74022$af3154e0$90027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:46:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C73FF0.4CFFEC50"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72250 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Vo Counter-Spin? Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C73FF0.4CFFEC50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001F_01C73FF0.4CFFEC50" ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C73FF0.4CFFEC50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Jones,, An elegant waxing of wordsmithing. Yes , there is an interesting counter spin ( reverse rotation) that = occurs in a water vortex.. hmmm.. actually , an "induced" = counterflow........... double hmmm!!. We have yet to understand it much less describe it. Ask yourself the = question...a flow is produced evidenced by water draining from a sink by = forming a vortex.. cover the top of the vortex ( top cone shaped = opening) and the flow almost stops. How can downward flow to drain increase by vortex action while an = "upward" flow occurs when the vortex reforms. It is almost like the vortex requires "lubrication" from the reverse = vortex flow in order to accelerate.. Our tests continue to produce more questions than answers but we are = studying methods of determining velocity in each regime. Sometimes we = think we are dealing with something out of the " Twilight Zone" when = observing this reverse vortex. We have produced a beautiful shaped = reverse vortex that can be seen using a Q beam lamp. Some report that = this reverse vortex can produce light in the UV and perhaps the gamma = range but we have not been able to detect anything visible or by a = Radmeter. =20 Starting the fab work on the test with the 200 ea, magnets ( 3/4" = neodym) next. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C73FF0.4CFFEC50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Jones,,
 
An elegant waxing of wordsmithing.
 
Yes , there is an interesting counter spin ( reverse rotation) that = occurs=20 in a water vortex.. hmmm.. actually , an "induced" = counterflow........... double=20 hmmm!!.
 
We have yet to understand it much less describe it. Ask yourself = the=20 question...a flow is produced evidenced by water draining from a sink by = forming=20 a vortex.. cover the top of the vortex ( top cone shaped opening) and = the flow=20 almost stops.
How can  downward flow to drain increase by vortex action = while an=20 "upward" flow occurs when the vortex reforms.
It is almost like the vortex requires "lubrication" from the = reverse vortex=20 flow in order to accelerate..
Our tests continue to produce more questions than answers but we = are=20 studying methods of determining velocity in each regime. Sometimes we = think we=20 are dealing with something out of the " Twilight Zone" when observing = this=20 reverse vortex. We have produced a beautiful shaped reverse vortex that = can be=20 seen using a Q beam lamp. Some report that this reverse vortex can = produce light=20 in the UV and perhaps the gamma range but we have not been able to = detect=20 anything visible or by a Radmeter.
 
Starting the fab work on the test with the 200 ea, magnets ( 3/4" = neodym)=20 next.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_001_001F_01C73FF0.4CFFEC50-- ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C73FF0.4CFFEC50 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001d01c74022$9795c870$90027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C73FF0.4CFFEC50-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 18:08:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0P28E1R005896; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:08:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0P28Cbx005878; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:08:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:08:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Iris-Relay-Method: + SMTP AUTH for 716940 X-Iris-Envelope-Recipient: X-Iris-Envelope-Sender: X-Iris-Host: 1158903161/dpc6919117121.direcpc.com From: "David Thomson" Received-SPF: none (dwtlaptop: domain of dwt@volantis.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Vo Counter-Spin? Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 20:07:40 -0600 Message-ID: <00a201c74025$a1a37440$0300a8c0@dwtlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <002201c74022$af3154e0$90027841@xptower> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdAI2vNYmYV757/SVqWdHcMg3tIfAAAQf/Q Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72251 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Richard, I have a water vortex in my living space as one of my room decorations. It is part of an aquarium/terrarium/rock garden setup. I've had it operating for over two years and watch it daily. I have never witnessed upward flow in this water vortex. In fact, you just forced me to do what I have refrained from doing for two years. I dropped food coloring into the vortex to watch its behavior. There are two dramatic features, the food coloring produces a well-defined channel around the vortex, and although the food coloring is highly localized in the center, it suddenly disperses evenly throughout the entire water volume. I'll setup my digital camera and make a video clip of it tomorrow. Dave From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 18:32:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0P2W8ZA025929; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:32:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0P2W7AO025919; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:32:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:32:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: Md7Z__IVM1kbsTdQjTgSr0Ym4KwL.NF2Q27asnIb5wy.V2EMtnqAKkzlJyAjJxsoxWBotX1SZTRRGbYg25bntLb5F3N3NOmZHU_6PzHsenV5k6lXHG3UFuzZj5pnRUNm9z_uLpTLUo7Fjg5BbORvuWSOIQ-- Message-ID: <45B816A4.5020903@pobox.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:32:04 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Vo Counter-Spin ? References: <45B7CC2A.5060704@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45B7CC2A.5060704@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7jf65B.A.2UG.maBuFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72252 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > Harry Veeder wrote: > >> Einstein's explanation is clever but has it every been tested? Is that >> how >> liquid stirred in a tea cup actually flows? (see fig. 1 at >> http://www.ucalgary.ca/~kmuldrew/river.html ) > > Dunno for sure. > > But for the heck of it (and as a potential range of experiments for > science fair participants) I am trying to enrich the ethanol content of > some cheap wine with none other than tea leaves. If the goal is to enrich the wine, rather than understand tea leaves, considering what time of year it is, you could use the old farmer's trick, and do it with a "cold still": Just put a jug of the cheap stuff outside overnight, then run a red hot poker down into the bottle to clear a channel (assuming it's frozen right up through the neck), turn it over, and pour off the alcohol from the middle. Supposedly this is the old-fashioned way to make applejack. (If heating a poker red-hot seems too energy intensive -- or just too awkward -- I suppose a long bit on an electric drill would do the job just as well.) 'Course if you're in one of those Dixie states where the air never cools off you won't be able to make this work. > Will also try various > other oily "media". I understand that this is unrelated to you interest > in the "flow" properties, but just forgot to mention it before. > > This technique should work if the leaves (or any other material) absorbs > ethanol preferentially, displacing water. The "media" (i.e. tea leaves > or whatever) will then be removed by the filtering and can then pressed > to see if the liquid coming out later is enriched in alcohol. > > There are many related patents on this technique already. A good > resource is: > http://www.chemicalvision2020.org/pdfs/sepmap.pdf > > As we know, distillation is energy intensive, and it is not always > possible to use waste heat, and even when waste heat is used - why not > get 4-5 times more distillate for the same heat input? > > By increasing the ethanol content of a fermentation mash from an average > of 10% to just 20% cuts the energy requirement almost in half, and > certainly there should be plenty of "water displacing" materials in nature. > > SIDE note: The "WD" of the ubiquitous spray-lube called WD-40 stands for > "water-displacing." ... and next to duct-tape as a stop-gap remedy, what > real-man doesn't purchase WD-40 by the case as cure-all for nearly every > rub, as they say. You can guess what I will spray my tea leaves with in > the next run > > Jones > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 24 19:32:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0P3WCoc020966; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:32:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0P3WAAR020954; Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:32:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:32:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=lNKlndQjdC4diJXilDRWJDBvnLj2DV4Op358f9cNN/omYi/4rWYci7Zr8AXR2d/q; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <22872189.1169695929208.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:32:09 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c71d60f00214c32d28a351b979e83d47c52db4625bbac1f48350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0P3W9K2020935 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72253 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: A report on European Energy mentions cold fusion Status: O X-Status: This came to me indirectly via Google alerts. See: http://www.institut-thomas-more.org/pdf/85_en_NoteITM7LiechtensteinEng2.pdf European Energy policies 10 questions, 10 answers for the future Dr.-Ing. Hildegard von LIECHTENSTEIN Quote from page 11: "The real technologies of the future: Hot and cold nuclear fusion – Early last year it was decided that the research centre for nuclear fusion ITER would be built in France and would begin its work in 15(!) years' time. The interval between the discovery of the radioactivity of radium by Marie Curie in 1898 and the first large nuclear power station of 35 MW in England was almost 60 years. By the year 2050, we will certainly not have a fusion reactor available for electricity generation – if ever … I am somewhat more optimistic – despite the evidence to the contrary – in respect of coldfusion, which incidentally, would be much less dangerous. Unfortunately, research in this field has almost come to a standstill. The two most prominent American scientists in the field were subjected to harassment by their colleagues at MIT under unusual circumstances." We shall have to contact Dr. V. L. and tell her that more than two researchers have been harrassed. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 03:45:56 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PBjmvD022620; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:45:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PBjkvu022601; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:45:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 03:45:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <041301c74076$57dda2d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <225961.81050.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:45:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0PBjill022556 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72254 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >> a violation of energy conservation? No. Electric > >> potential energy is decreasing somewhere, > >> I'll let you find where :) ... > ...We want > to know, lol! :-) Oops I have found in the meantime that my initial explanation was wrong, so it's just as well I kept it to myself ;-) Electric potential energy has nothing to do with the matter as I realized (my apologies for the misleading hint). Still it seemed obvious to me that _some_ potential energy had to be decreasing, since it takes work to bring the dipoles back to their non-aligned initial state. Same reasoning as in the non-rotating case where magnets are just attracted to each other, similar to a mass falling off a table as previously mentioned by Stephen. This led me to Googling "magnetic potential energy", and bingo, there is such a thing, and it decreases all right when magnetic dipoles align! You'll find a good explanation at the url below, for the case where one small dipole swivels inside another, larger one (see their drawing for the geometry). In this simple case no linear motion is involved, just the rotation to alignment we are concerned with, very much like a compass needle aligns with the Earth's magnetic field without being pulled as a whole one way or another. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magpot.html : "A magnetic dipole moment in a magnetic field will possess potential energy which depends upon its orientation with respect to the magnetic field. Since magnetic sources are inherently dipole sources which can be visualized as a current loop with current I and area A, the energy is usually expressed in terms of the magnetic dipole moment: U = -µ . B where µ=IA The energy is expressed as a scalar product, and implies that the energy is lowest when the magnetic moment is aligned with the magnetic field..." Therefore if the small magnet swivels without friction it should oscillate like a pendulum around the aligned position, with energy being similarly transferred back and forth between potential energy (max at max disalignment) and kinetic energy plus field energy (max at alignment). Variation of the latter can probably be neglected in the small magnet vs big magnet case, just like one neglects the complete system's gravitational field energy variation when deriving the pendulum's motion in the Earth's gravitational field. Energy conserved in standard physics, unsurprisingly. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 6:22 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 3:46 PM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using > *standard* physics > > > > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >>> Indeed both kinetic and magnetic field energies > are > >> increasing in the process. Is this > >> a violation of energy conservation? No. Electric > >> potential energy is decreasing somewhere, > >> I'll let you find where :) > >>> Michel > >> > >> The old "I know, but I don't want to tell you" > trick? > >> :) > > > > Not at all, I will give the answer eventually, say > on Sunday if nobody finds it before, > which I doubt very much. The fun is in the searching, > I have given away far too much > already :) > > > > Your variations don't change the issue BTW, so > let's stick to your original experiment. > > > > Michel > > > Michel, > > Why don't you tell us now. It's probably some effect > we're not aware of or know very > little about. If it is such an effect then I'll plug > it in my latest simulation program > and see what happens. > > I'm no QM expert, which is why I asked dozen+ QM > physicists, but do you know something > they're not aware of? Why wait for Sunday? We want > to know, lol! :-) > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > http://new.mail.yahoo.com > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 05:30:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PDTwwj022734; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 05:29:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PDTvJd022721; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 05:29:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 05:29:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 7SswfWkVM1m1OeXpc5WiJcCebAH6fE0xdul8Kj9es.q5jpPHmEifBWsXCSC8u5Wyxy9RIp5Bag0YpLIkvcf_aHdtZJiP0r14J.8tlUgXQU1UVLbkutNcaxXCQdVnpU85PZ3CcmhsKJ8zauo- Message-ID: <45B8B0CF.9040800@pobox.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:29:51 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <225961.81050.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <041301c74076$57dda2d0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <041301c74076$57dda2d0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72255 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> a violation of energy conservation? No. Electric potential >>>> energy is decreasing somewhere, I'll let you find where :) > ... >> ...We want to know, lol! :-) > > Oops I have found in the meantime that my initial explanation was > wrong, so it's just as well I kept it to myself ;-) > > Electric potential energy has nothing to do with the matter as I > realized (my apologies for the misleading hint). Still it seemed > obvious to me that _some_ potential energy had to be decreasing, > since it takes work to bring the dipoles back to their non-aligned > initial state. Same reasoning as in the non-rotating case where > magnets are just attracted to each other, similar to a mass falling > off a table as previously mentioned by Stephen. This led me to > Googling "magnetic potential energy", and bingo, there is such a > thing, and it decreases all right when magnetic dipoles align! Yes, I knew that. In fact the formula which you quoted below, -mu B applies to linear potential energy as well, which the authors apparently didn't mention. A dipole in a nonuniform field feels a linear force which is equal to gradient(mu B) and in any field it feels a torque which is mu B and these are easily seen to be the negatives of the gradient of the potential and partial of the potential with respect to the dipole angle, respectively. I actually said this 'way back before the beginning of this discussion, and again part way through... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 06:30:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PEUdMx014294; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 06:30:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PEUaUs014270; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 06:30:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 06:30:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on mail0.mx.core.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=10.0 tests=HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:30:33 -0600 From: "OrionWorks" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_648319aeaa03c77eb46c3e983e7c6e19" X-Mailer: CoreComm Webmail X-IPAddress: 130.47.34.2 Message-Id: <20070125143033.1A539DA42A@mail0.mx.core.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72256 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: China -A New Entry in the Magnetic Conversion of Zero Point Energy Has Surfaced! Status: O X-Status: --=_648319aeaa03c77eb46c3e983e7c6e19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vorts, FYI, Some of you might enjoy reading the following short clip recently posted out at zpenergy.com. See: http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2206 http://tinyurl.com/3bkvey Perhaps Mark can share with us a little more about the details, that is without stepping on all the pertinent NDAs that I would imagine are in place. Sigh... China trumps again! Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_648319aeaa03c77eb46c3e983e7c6e19 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vorts,

FYI,

Some of you might enjoy reading the following short clip recently posted ou= t at zpenergy.com.

See:

http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D2206
http://tinyurl.com/3bkvey

Perhaps Mark can share with us a little more about the details, that is wit= hout stepping on all the pertinent NDAs that I would imagine are in place.<= br />
Sigh... China trumps again!

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks --=_648319aeaa03c77eb46c3e983e7c6e19-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 08:14:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PGEHif002424; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:14:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PGEFoE002409; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:14:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:14:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <044001c7409b$da27d2e0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <225961.81050.qm@web62408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <041301c74076$57dda2d0$3800a8c0@zothan> <45B8B0CF.9040800@pobox.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:13:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0PGEDER002391 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72257 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" To: Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:29 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > > Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>> a violation of energy conservation? No. Electric potential >>>>> energy is decreasing somewhere, I'll let you find where :) >> ... >>> ...We want to know, lol! :-) >> >> Oops I have found in the meantime that my initial explanation was >> wrong, so it's just as well I kept it to myself ;-) >> >> Electric potential energy has nothing to do with the matter as I >> realized (my apologies for the misleading hint). Still it seemed >> obvious to me that _some_ potential energy had to be decreasing, >> since it takes work to bring the dipoles back to their non-aligned >> initial state. Same reasoning as in the non-rotating case where >> magnets are just attracted to each other, similar to a mass falling >> off a table as previously mentioned by Stephen. This led me to >> Googling "magnetic potential energy", and bingo, there is such a >> thing, and it decreases all right when magnetic dipoles align! > > Yes, I knew that. In fact the formula which you quoted below, > > -mu B > > applies to linear potential energy as well, which the authors apparently > didn't mention. A dipole in a nonuniform field feels a linear force > which is equal to > > gradient(mu B) It makes sense. > > and in any field it feels a torque which is > > mu B > > and these are easily seen to be the negatives of the gradient of the > potential and partial of the potential with respect to the dipole angle, > respectively. > > I actually said this 'way back before the beginning of this discussion, > and again part way through... Sorry I hadn't followed more closely the discussions, it would have saved me reinventing the wheel :) The set of formulae you quote above should be complete enough for any derivations or simulations Paul or others may have in mind. Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 08:17:45 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PGHW3C003546; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:17:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PGHVOZ003511; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:17:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:17:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=odSflxZ8e0z09DQIJpUxRAGSimlPLn9jJ7Jc88eUNcvigVW4xBQNvRkcu0yYyXNLaRYX425ckduN9r3j84g2340MgOONNu5DhCgt6BbIVpiUV8euD4VCPV5dsKeeJQePM+FznqYaPB8FAOzYL1pRKwmKTUYcyPY8I3UGa1UPNpU=; X-YMail-OSG: 9JaMp9IVM1nkyUl8iM7lmKSySzisd5toXVfVu.Tt Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:17:26 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <278510.45511.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72258 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> a violation of energy conservation? No. Electric >>>> potential energy is decreasing somewhere, >>>> I'll let you find where :) > ... >> ...We want >> to know, lol! :-) > > Oops I have found in the meantime that my initial explanation was wrong, so it's just as well I kept it to myself ;-) No problem! > Electric potential energy has nothing to do with the matter as I realized (my apologies for the misleading hint). > Still it seemed obvious to me that _some_ potential energy had to be decreasing, since it takes work to bring > the dipoles back to their non-aligned initial state. Same reasoning as in the non-rotating case where magnets > are just attracted to each other, similar to a mass falling off a table as previously mentioned by Stephen. > This led me to Googling "magnetic potential energy", and bingo, there is such a thing, and it decreases > all right when magnetic dipoles align! > > You'll find a good explanation at the url below, > for the case where one small dipole swivels inside another, larger one (see their > drawing for the geometry). In this simple case no linear motion is involved, just the > rotation to alignment we are concerned with, very much like a compass needle aligns with > the Earth's magnetic field without being pulled as a whole one way or another. > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magpot.html : > > "A magnetic dipole moment in a magnetic field will possess potential energy which > depends upon its orientation with respect to the magnetic field. Since magnetic sources > are inherently dipole sources which can be visualized as a current loop with current I > and area A, the energy is usually expressed in terms of the magnetic dipole moment: > > U = -µ . B where µ=IA > > The energy is expressed as a scalar product, and implies that the energy is lowest when > the magnetic moment is aligned with the magnetic field..." > > Therefore if the small magnet swivels without friction it should oscillate like a pendulum > around the aligned position, with energy being similarly transferred back and forth between > potential energy (max at max disalignment) and kinetic energy plus field energy (max at alignment). > Variation of the latter can probably be neglected in the small magnet vs big magnet case, > just like one neglects the complete system's gravitational field energy variation when > deriving the pendulum's motion in the Earth's gravitational field. I mentioned that early on in the discussion that such a dipole oscillates back and forth due to momentum and magnetic attraction until friction dissipates such energy. Although, once again, that is beside the point. The point is energy is coming from something ***while the two dipoles are accelerating angularly***. Below I'll describe the process once again. > Energy conserved in standard physics, unsurprisingly. No, no, no. We're *not* talking about the energy conservation of the dipole oscillating back and forth. We are *not* talking about permanently removing energy from the electron spin. As previously stated, such a process is temporary so long as the dipoles remain magnetically aligned and at their separation distance. Again, consider two magnets initially at rest and magnetically unaligned. The two dipoles then accelerate angularly to magnetic alignment when released, thus gaining KE and an increase in net magnetic field. Did you know that when you apply a magnetic field to magnetic material at curie temperature there is a significant increase in temperature (over 4 C)? When on intensely studies magnetic materials the reason becomes clear as to why. At curie temperature the magnetic dipole moments are for the most part unaligned. When the field is applied the dipoles align. Again, the process of aligning dipoles adds energy. So even the electron gains KE during such a process. We are trying to find the source of that energy. Again, if we *knew* nothing about an electro-magnet or air coil then at best we could merely say, "Oh, well, it's just potential energy. So we can't say which came first." Fortunately we now have technology that indeed reveals that such a process requires energy. We have technology that can create magnetic fields on demand-- the electro-magnet. The electro-magnet clearly reveals that it consumes energy from the current source while the two dipoles are rotating to alignment. Therefore we can no longer nonchalantly ignore and brush off such an issue. Same goes for gravity. Presently we cannot generate a gravity field on demand; i.e., an electro-gravity coil. When a ball is moved upward away from Earth we are adding PE to the system. Presently most physicists just nonchalantly accept the existence of PE, as it's quite possibly out of our reach to understand where that actual potential energy went. Although, lets say we have technology to create an electro-gravity coil. So we're out in free-space and turn on the gravity coil. An object begins accelerating toward the gravity-coil. Since we presently know what happens when we perform such an experiment with an electro-magnet coil and ferromagnetic material, we can theorize the same might happen with an electro-gravity coil, which is acceleration drains energy from the current source that generates such a field. So what is happening is energy is being moved from the electro-magnet device to the accelerating object. Therefore, when we use the magnetic dipole moment of the electron instead of the air coil electro-magnet we once again gain kinetic energy. It appears such energy comes from whatever sustains the electron spin. To blow off such a quest IMHO is foolish, as there is a great deal of valuable potential experiments in regards to such an effect. For example, one could study possible decrease in electron life span during such a process. IOW, perhaps the process of ***temporarily*** draining the source that sustains the electron slightly reduces the lifespan of such an electron. We don't know what will happen. As example, perhaps given present best technology we could influence one electron to self annihilate per week. IOW, such an experiment would resemble the following outline --> Setup: A piece of pure iron material inside a superconducting coil. 1. Apply a 10 T field to iron for 1 ms. 2. Analysis --> Were any electrons annihilated? Repeat experiment if not. Perhaps there's a certain probability of an electron annihilating due to temporarily removing energy from its source. Such an experiment could take minutes, weeks, or perhaps centuries to cause one electron annihilation with present technology. I for one would like to know where such energy comes from. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 09:33:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PHWhmD030280; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:32:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PHWe8r030236; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:32:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:32:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:43:38 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: China -A New Entry in the Magnetic Conversion of Zero Point Energy Has Surfaced! In-reply-to: <20070125143033.1A539DA42A@mail0.mx.core.com> To: svj@orionworks.com, "OrionWorks" , vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakesideone.net Message-id: <200701251243.38662.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <20070125143033.1A539DA42A@mail0.mx.core.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72259 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 25 January 2007 09:30, OrionWorks wrote: > Vorts, > > FYI, > > Some of you might enjoy reading the following short clip recently posted > out at zpenergy.com. > > See: > > http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2206 > > http://tinyurl.com/3bkvey > > Perhaps Mark can share with us a little more about the details, that is > without stepping on all the pertinent NDAs that I would imagine are in > place. > > Sigh... China trumps again! > > Regards > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.zazzle.com/orionworks Makes on wonder if this event, if true, and the recent Chinese anti-satellite weapon test were somehow related. Maybe a warning to the oil monopoly and its various governmental bought and paid for 'friends' that the price of suppression, harrassment, or interference with the distribution of this technology to third world nations would probably lead to a war from which the national hosts of these monopolies have now no immunity...and will not see coming. They well remember what happened to Pons and Fleishmann. Of course the Chinese would have to have seen convincing proof of concept. They are neither stupid nor rash. Only speculation....then there was the mysterious jamming possibly allegedly from either deep space or an otherwise 'unknown source' of satellite and commo signals in the north African and western middle east and southern European areas from the afternoons of the past Tuesday and Wednesday. No one will comment as to the source according to SpaceDaily.com? Standing Bear Nice website...I'll take two of them in my garage anytime and tell the electric corporations to go to heck. How many others are thinking the same? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 10:26:34 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PIQL4X029072; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:26:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PIQKMm029055; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:26:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:26:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=GAcPnfEFjWbzP02pBKRZ8LoDg0POtHp3UrfdYs9IxtbNvnJ2t73gAGTJmwxj+7B6W5tAPZi4yDDRIB+epHxgVx57JrEtFg/sBDvy4RuUCrKtmfjvWD4gPf6iTimGmyjyXVY67/SLxkFodXJR/qulg5JjGJIDTHN3mC1RFK9OBCg=; X-YMail-OSG: djBP0tIVM1nZulVznShBdgAU1Q2S21v0Hf__XK5h Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:26:19 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <285044.62086.qm@web62409.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72260 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Harvey, Sorry, I had typed up your reply yesterday, but had computer problems and lost what I was typing. The short version --> Harvey Norris wrote: > >> > Well not quite entirely, the current loop >> consisting in the orbiting motion has got to >> contribute _some_ magnetic dipole moment to the >> atom, >> however small this effect may be >> compared to that of the rotating motion. >> >> >> That's very true. Most of the field in ferromagnetic >> atoms comes from intrinsic electron >> spin, not orbital spin. For example, in Alnico 5 >> 94% >> comes from intrinsic electron spin. >> In Sm2Co17 63% from intrinsic electron spin. >> Paramagnetic materials is another story, >> but it's relatively weak. >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance > > Hi Paul, some interesting facts here on > (ferro)magnetism. I am not well schooled in physics, > but I remember reading a book on magnetism where this > fact was brought on, that magnetism was created both > by "cohered" orbital electron orbits, and also the > actual spin of the electron while in orbit. (Here > refered to as intrinsic spin} I think it was also > noted that it was the single "unpaired" electron orbit > responsible for the magnetism due to orbital spin. > For every electron in orbit, the magnetic force it > creates reacts via lenz law to create a magnetic force > in opposition; with the net result that every > clockwise electron spin is paired with a > counterclockwise spin, so the net effect of these two > spins are magnetic cancellation. Thus ferromagnetic > materials should have an ODD number of electron orbits > so that the one unpaired spin can be "cohered" to all > spin at the same three dimensional angle among a > domain sample of many of these spins. I am somewhat > confused here, are the magnetic dipoles here referred > to a set of these opposite spinning electron orbits? Hopefully I understand your question. As you may know, one single electron has one single magnetic dipole moment. So if a ferro atom has 5 unpaired electrons then there are 5 unpaired magnetic dipole moments, but I'm sure you already knew that and therefore I'm uncertain what your question is regarding. I'm not a QM expert, I know the magnetic dipole moment of the electron is caused by its intrinsic spin within a magnetic field. As you know, QM claims electron spin is + or -, but this interpretation is misunderstood, as electron moment has a 3-dimension magnetic alignment. Therefore, the net magnetic field in a magnetic domain is caused by the alignment of such electron moments. On the other hand, electrons are more complex that just magnetic dipole moment. QM claims the single electron cannot completely stop. Therefore the electron is always moving. My latest simulation software of the electron shows the magnetic dipole moment of the free electron cannot directly align in the direction it's moving. > My next question regards macroscopic spin. If we > understand gyroscopic laws a spin within a spin can > have a precessional force imposed on it. A good > demonstration of this is what happens when a person > sitting on a revolving stool holds the axle of a > revolving bicycle wheel. If the revolving wheel is > initially vertical, and the person tilts that wheel to > a horizontal orientation, a torque is translated to > the stool so that the force applied to change the > angle of the spin itself is translated to cause the > person on the stool to rotate. Now suppose this stool > itself is filled with hundreds of gyroscopes on > gimbals so that the spin itself is allowed to change > its orientation of spin. And all of these gyroscopic > spins are oriented in random directional spins in > three dimensions.(an analogy for an unmagnetised > ferromagnetic material) Now suppose then we > externally rotate this stool holding all of these > random spins in three dimensions. Would it not be true > that some of the spins would change their direction of > spin due to precessional gyroscopic forces caused by > the external rotation, so that the external > spin,(macroscopic) influenced a majority of > internal(Molecular domain electron spins) to become > somewhat cohered spins in two dimensions intead of > three? The net result would be that the macroscopic > spin coheres > molcular gryscopic electron spins so that a side > effect of macroscopic ferrmagnetic spin on a disc like > structure is magnetism! > > In support of this thesis is the results of spinning > an alternator with an unenergized electromagnet field. > A 2 volt stator output that can enable a 1.5 Amp > consumption on a single shorted phase at a rotation > causing 480 hz were the results I obtained with a > smaller Delco Remy car alternator with the diodes > removed, all without the field even being energized. > In fact it may be somewhat amazing to see what > meausures must be taken so that zero power output is > available from a spinning AC alternator whose > (primary) field has not been energized. It is seen > that if the DC current is sent through the field in > one preferred direction, more stator voltage results, > and this is logical since one direction of field > current would establish a (electrically > induced)magnetic field in harmony with the > pre-existant rotationally created magnetic field. If > the direction of the field current was made in the > opposite direction to oppose the rotationally created > magnetic field, the output of the alternator can be > made to approach zero. Amazingly we must send energy > into the field to make the alternator quit producing > an output voltage. If the incorrect direction of > current through the field were then increased beyond > the zero output margin, the alternator once again > produces voltage, but somewhat more innefficiently > then if the correct direction of DC field current were > used. When this was done, and then the field amperage > again reduced to the point where it formerly cancelled > the rotational magnetism so that zero output is shown > from the stator outputs, now it delivers a different > result of delivering power, so that we might conclude > that rotation itself preserves as a sort of memory its > previous electromagnetic influence. > > These effects were previously elaborated in some of my > yahoo group postings; > Amazing Rotational Magnetism Tests > Sun Sep 19, 2004 > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/1291 > "what I did here was to compare the field > energy requirements at the point of .25 A field > current. This required a two volt DC voltage across > field to accomplish from the ordinary variac set up I > use to energize the field. This implies that at 2 > volts, the field appears as 8 ohms, to allow .25 A > conduction,even though the field measures some 20 ohms > when it is not rotating. This is the meaning of > "forward emf", where ordinary AC motors > experience the opposite effect, the AC resistance > initally appears at its normal impedance level then, > but as soon as rotation commences a far higher AC > resistance appears due to back emf making a voltage in > reverse to the source voltage. Here somehow magically > however the field looses its DC resistance, and in > fact if it didnt do that, it would be especially hard > to make the DC field /stator resonance feedback loop > even work! But the purpose here was to compare > direction of field currents to the attached load of a > 2 inch water cell output. When the .25 A of field > amperage is in the correct direction inputing we see > about 5.5 average stator volts appearing to > allow 4.7 VDC @ .85A through two inch cell > Reversing the direction of field current we then see a > ~ stator voltage of 3.5 VAC enabling 3.7DCV @ .54 A > through cell. So here it is easy to show that a lesser > output is made with equal field energies, and that a > correct polarity input for field is desirable." > Dispelling the Remanent Magnetism of Field Rotor > Theory > Sat Apr 17, 2004 > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/1051 > "Remarkably The actual DC resistance of the field > is > affected in a very non-linear manner prior to the > point where electromagnetism of the field rotor > exceeds the pre-existant rotational magnetism. > Initially the field appears as a much higher DC > resistance than is actually measured without motion of > the field rotor taking place." > > "Once the field is ACTUALLY energized, and then turned > off, we see an increase of (no field) parametric > readings. THAT is that totality of remanent > magnetisation effect, which of course is > lost after a certain time after motion of the field > rotor has ceased. It is ONLY that amount of increase > that should be attributed to remanent magnetism of the > field pole faces, and of course the ordinary > parametric levels of operation are then seen when that > remanent magnetism ceases to be present..." > > Now in finality I would ask if the above is > beleivable, shouldnt rotational magnetism be more > evident in materials where the magnetic effect is made > more from orbital spin rather then intrinsic spin? > Can you comment whether hard or soft iron would be > more > characterized by orbital spin rather then intrinsic? > Thanx for any answers here. Again I'm uncertain precisely what you are asking. As you know orbital spin changes from molecule to molecule. Paramagnetic materials have unpaired electron orbits, but paramagnetism is weak relative to ferromagnetism. It's probably possible for material to have both ferro and paramagnetism. Although the ferromagnetism would most likely be stronger than the paramagnetism. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 11:24:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PJNg3u000800; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:23:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PJNelM000769; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:23:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:23:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=nmqAHGWFxlindPt01KD4mwKnxZ5zWf5ZfqFJWDecOICAgqc3ew5gIMjLZp9eIGaCIwdn+D3HJ92VIM9fdMmC8PzM/dJ5yzs9QkP06lqZVWhHGrA/KxueMTbwARfLFuYE1e8ye7oLGLbszpqJsLlDzNhjuD4h5wfP7tSKMTltKGU=; X-YMail-OSG: kZEZ_EcVM1nmeAC80isyLYvHoHmffxs_ffBCnR2QU0ulniUEyD9MVtAZ8BvF0SGpZXnyM70bo5fBzyiU4Tdsx_Bg.XblXrctFrF1bDdK2ZWmh7s5o7Bezm5GvYpQ1cxxbDbXMM5zl7I9yw-- Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:23:38 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: [Vo]: Energy from Electron angular momentum? To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <82695.19976.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72261 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Has anyone ever tried one of these wrist exercising gizmos? Long ebay url: http://cgi.ebay.com/Power-Gyroscope-Wrist-Exercise-Strengthener-Ball_W0QQitemZ230018345529QQihZ013QQcategoryZ28067QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting Direct Images: http://images.virtualvillage.com/004400-001/001m.jpg http://images.channeladvisor.com/Sell/SSProfiles/72000025/thumbs/19/tn4_1261020.jpg I used to have one of these great little gadgets. You simple get the ball spinning just a tad and then immediately begin slowly rotating the device in a precessional manner. It usually takes a little practice, as the precession rate must be just correct. When you get it just right the gyro begins to increase in speed. You can immediately tell because it requires a great deal of precessional force, hence the reason it's great exercise. After a minute or so one can get it rotating at a high rate. You'll hear it humming quite loud. Similarly, we can do the opposite. Once the gyro is spinning, we can remove such energy by performing the opposite action. :-) QM claims the electron has angular momentum. I know, I know, supposedly it's a quantum value, or so they believe. It would be an interesting experiment to see if energy could be extracted from a permanent magnet, as we know there are appreciable amount of unpaired aligned electron spins in such PM's. As to how fast the PM must be precessed is unknown. For all we know it could require speeds greater than any PM could handle. One thing for certain, a real gyroscope requires precise timing if you are going to remove its energy. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 12:53:32 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PKrQVq015925; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:53:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PKrOkS015900; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:53:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:53:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: <20070125143033.1A539DA42A@mail0.mx.core.com> From: "Mark Goldes" To: svj@orionworks.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: China -A New Entry in the Magnetic Conversion of Zero Point Energy Has Surfaced! Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:53:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 20:53:22.0835 (UTC) FILETIME=[D9FBF630:01C740C2] Resent-Message-ID: <6ThEp.A.S4D.EjRuFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72262 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, The prototype seems to be real. However, it does not seem to be a simple device to mass produce, as it depends on special ferrofluids and what may prove to be Hg, as a second liquid used separately in this system. If it is Hg, the toxicity and difficulty of obtaining sufficient quantities may severely limit production. However, as with the Steorn work, we have no first hand knowledge whatsoever. The comments above reflect a look at a sketchy website: www.energyfromair.com/beijing/Wang3a.files/slide0002.htm The theory put forward by the inventors associate seems to be very far off base. However, it appears other inventors in China who have been attempting to develop Over Unity devices are, to some extent at least, being brought into a cooperative relationship that may have funding by the Chinese government. My guess is government scientists are extremely skeptical of the theoretical explanation advanced, with good reason, and that may have ended, or threatened to end, support. If they can proceed with building a 5 kW generator and allow academic validation, China might become a major player in the production of magnetic ZPE conversion systems. Mark Magnetic Power Inc. magneticpower@gmail.com >From: "OrionWorks" >Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: [Vo]: China -A New Entry in the Magnetic Conversion of Zero Point >Energy Has Surfaced! >Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:30:33 -0600 > >Vorts, > >FYI, > >Some of you might enjoy reading the following short clip recently posted >out at zpenergy.com. > >See: > >http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2206 > >http://tinyurl.com/3bkvey > >Perhaps Mark can share with us a little more about the details, that is >without stepping on all the pertinent NDAs that I would imagine are in >place. > >Sigh... China trumps again! > >Regards >Steven Vincent Johnson >www.OrionWorks.com >www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 12:56:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PKuJHU017495; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:56:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PKuIOb017481; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:56:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:56:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WXN643ouSMsHcHLeRpNb+jfqE567S+OMcT1AJHzEelHQkmDqttbs9D8E2mCTSOY6iNAO7b80jwAwe+iHOM1s6NZcA5NQtfVI1cd5Z/ZSMRwVfBSsS/akuIQaikDLrnkDQD2EqWWpRHHY2uEAIv1R1ZuzUiLHkZCZcODPLHVzfPQ= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:56:16 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-Reply-To: <285044.62086.qm@web62409.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <285044.62086.qm@web62409.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72263 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/25/07, Paul wrote: > On the other hand, electrons are more complex that > just magnetic dipole moment. You might find this model of interest: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2787/2214/1600/app%206-7.jpg Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 13:04:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PL4IjD024086; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:04:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PL4HcQ024066; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:04:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:04:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: China -A New Entry in the Magnetic Conversion of Zero Point Energy Has Surfaced! Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:04:14 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2e6ir2tgb703js0q7vqnjk41lhbc89bbu6@4ax.com> References: <20070125143033.1A539DA42A@mail0.mx.core.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:04:14 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0PL4F31024038 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72264 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:53:19 -0800: Hi, >Vo, > >The prototype seems to be real. However, it does not seem to be a simple >device to mass produce, as it depends on special ferrofluids and what may >prove to be Hg, as a second liquid used separately in this system. If it is >Hg, the toxicity and difficulty of obtaining sufficient quantities may >severely limit production. [snip] A Google search on Wang Shum Ho yielded http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=38371&page=1 Note that Lawrence Tseung claims the Chinese device is a Steorn knock-off (if I read correctly). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 13:43:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PLhin7011500; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:43:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PLhgxq011480; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:43:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:43:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:54:47 -0500 From: Standing Bear Subject: Re: [Vo]: China -A New Entry in the Magnetic Conversion of Zero Point Energy Has Surfaced! In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-to: rockcastle@lakesideone.net Message-id: <200701251654.47543.rockcastle@lakesideone.net> Organization: Rockcastle Associates MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72265 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 25 January 2007 15:53, Mark Goldes wrote: > Vo, > > The prototype seems to be real. However, it does not seem to be a simple > device to mass produce, as it depends on special ferrofluids and what may > prove to be Hg, as a second liquid used separately in this system. If it is > Hg, the toxicity and difficulty of obtaining sufficient quantities may > severely limit production. > > However, as with the Steorn work, we have no first hand knowledge > whatsoever. The comments above reflect a look at a sketchy website: > www.energyfromair.com/beijing/Wang3a.files/slide0002.htm > > The theory put forward by the inventors associate seems to be very far off > base. > > However, it appears other inventors in China who have been attempting to > develop Over Unity devices are, to some extent at least, being brought into > a cooperative relationship that may have funding by the Chinese government. > > My guess is government scientists are extremely skeptical of the > theoretical explanation advanced, with good reason, and that may have > ended, or threatened to end, support. > > If they can proceed with building a 5 kW generator and allow academic > validation, China might become a major player in the production of magnetic > ZPE conversion systems. > > Mark > > Magnetic Power Inc. > > magneticpower@gmail.com > > > > > From: "OrionWorks" > > >Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com > >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >Subject: [Vo]: China -A New Entry in the Magnetic Conversion of Zero Point > >Energy Has Surfaced! > >Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:30:33 -0600 > > > >Vorts, > > > >FYI, > > > >Some of you might enjoy reading the following short clip recently posted > >out at zpenergy.com. > > > >See: > > > >http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2206 > > > >http://tinyurl.com/3bkvey > > > >Perhaps Mark can share with us a little more about the details, that is > >without stepping on all the pertinent NDAs that I would imagine are in > >place. > > > >Sigh... China trumps again! > > > >Regards > >Steven Vincent Johnson > >www.OrionWorks.com > >www.zazzle.com/orionworks Mark, The info and webpage on ZPEnergy.com appears to have come from you Mark, and it also appears that the www.energyfromair.com site is now changed to a plain announcement in Chinese script characters with one link to a stark page full of javascript that is hostile to linux browsers but appears to love microsoft for some reason. Strange for a country that supports linux publicly over microsoft, calling it inherently unsecure and not capable of securing in a proprietary closed source software environment.. It may be that your doubts are also shared. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 14:00:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PLxuJf016800; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:59:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PLxsCr016778; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:59:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:59:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [64.174.37.158] X-Originating-Email: [mgoldes@msn.com] X-Sender: mgoldes@msn.com In-Reply-To: <2e6ir2tgb703js0q7vqnjk41lhbc89bbu6@4ax.com> From: "Mark Goldes" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: China -A New Entry in the Magnetic Conversion of Zero Point Energy Has Surfaced! Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:59:49 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2007 21:59:53.0683 (UTC) FILETIME=[24B70A30:01C740CC] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72266 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, The Wang generator is not at all like the Steorn work. As far as I know, there is no liquid in the Steorn inventiions. Wang uses two. The first is a complex ferrofluid and the second might be Hg. The comment you found had an entirely different meaning and his English is far from perfect. Mark >From: Robin van Spaandonk >Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: [Vo]: China -A New Entry in the Magnetic Conversion of Zero >Point Energy Has Surfaced! >Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:04:14 +1100 > >In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:53:19 -0800: >Hi, > >Vo, > > > >The prototype seems to be real. However, it does not seem to be a simple > >device to mass produce, as it depends on special ferrofluids and what may > >prove to be Hg, as a second liquid used separately in this system. If it >is > >Hg, the toxicity and difficulty of obtaining sufficient quantities may > >severely limit production. >[snip] > >A Google search on Wang Shum Ho yielded >http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=38371&page=1 > >Note that Lawrence Tseung claims the Chinese device is a Steorn knock-off >(if I >read correctly). > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk > >http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >Competition provides the motivation, >Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 14:56:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PMuKtD022928; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:56:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PMuGMx022882; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:56:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:56:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=g/tVnZEeYHgomuHV/QO5s175rBMRsjYTiGBn5mgCuOEn4frYgrEZkcrVr2upB8bdUiNbANJUKB2iGxGvUo6c+dJI79ufeUTkKKRqAvLnfYYBB4AswaUirp29NrTSf0XoiNKTE8o2JZ0iy+YB1DYqeM9yV2nPk20WwwK4O+N5gpU= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:56:14 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: China -A New Entry in the Magnetic Conversion of Zero Point Energy Has Surfaced! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2e6ir2tgb703js0q7vqnjk41lhbc89bbu6@4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: <5shbEC.A.elF.PWTuFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72267 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/25/07, Mark Goldes wrote: > Robin, > > The Wang generator is not at all like the Steorn work. As far as I know, > there is no liquid in the Steorn inventiions. Wang uses two. The first is a > complex ferrofluid and the second might be Hg. However, Wang and Steorn *do* seem to use mumetal as a component. I have requested that certain resources seek the truth. Regards, Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 15:05:05 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0PN4vWR026484; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:04:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0PN4phT026444; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:04:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:04:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Orig: 64-247-224-24.wan.networktel.net [64.247.224.24] X-Authentication-Warning: lenr-canr.org: lenrcanr owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20070125180205.035d1ce8@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:04:38 -0500 To: vortex-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [Vo]: China -A New Entry in the Magnetic Conversion of Zero Point Energy Has Surfaced! In-Reply-To: References: <2e6ir2tgb703js0q7vqnjk41lhbc89bbu6@4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72268 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes with an air of mystery: >I have requested that certain resources seek the truth. You can't handle the truth! - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 16:12:13 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0Q0C2xL026027; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:12:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0Q0Bx5R026009; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:11:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:11:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ktaNygWznjsZUfdHcoelpAw6lCujwKzjtPHJ8BNww2JgqxwmgNAFAPDaiGvjwGBp53tBzHka5ri727hwwvL3Qrd7jPgHQgBjuMcDrY8lF/FrH8UiBMFZXazcIrVwzfeqIBg7ev4w1QeuSVdRHvHMvh4tRK2rrPdeijMkFuFb8qI= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:11:57 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: China -A New Entry in the Magnetic Conversion of Zero Point Energy Has Surfaced! In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070125180205.035d1ce8@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2e6ir2tgb703js0q7vqnjk41lhbc89bbu6@4ax.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070125180205.035d1ce8@mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72269 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/25/07, Jed Rothwell wrote: > You can't handle the truth! "Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded . . ." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wall From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 17:23:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0Q1MoO4003465; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:22:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0Q1MlCX003445; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:22:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:22:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <04ae01c740e8$7b00d170$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <278510.45511.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:22:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0Q1MjHU003426 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72270 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul, if I understand correctly your long comments below (BTW could we be as concise as possible, and stick to the convention of new stuff on top whenever possible?), you believe that potential energy in general (not just magnetic, but also gravitational, electric too I suppose...) is just a convenient concept, and there must be some real energy underlying this concept, and you want to know where this real energy comes from. I believe on the contrary that potential energy is as real as energy can be. Taking gravity as an example (simpler than magnetism, no cross-products, Curie points etc..), the PE lost by the falling weight is exactly equal, _by definition_, to the work that must be done to lift it back up. If PE wasn't real there would be no real counterpart to the real work done when lifting the weight, as there would be no counterpart to the kinetic energy of the weight when it falls. Besides you can't replace PE by a _quantifiable_ energy as you suggest (annihilated or weakened electrons), because PE has an arbitrary zero. We can't tell how much intrinsic PE there is in the weight because we don't know on which planet we are going to let it fall, agreed? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > >>>> a violation of energy conservation? No. Electric > >>>> potential energy is decreasing somewhere, > >>>> I'll let you find where :) > > ... > >> ...We want > >> to know, lol! :-) > > > > Oops I have found in the meantime that my initial > explanation was wrong, so it's just > as well I kept it to myself ;-) > > > No problem! > > > > > Electric potential energy has nothing to do with > the matter as I realized (my apologies > for the misleading hint). > > Still it seemed obvious to me that _some_ potential > energy had to be decreasing, since > it takes work to bring > > the dipoles back to their non-aligned initial > state. Same reasoning as in the > non-rotating case where magnets > > are just attracted to each other, similar to a mass > falling off a table as previously > mentioned by Stephen. > > This led me to Googling "magnetic potential > energy", and bingo, there is such a thing, > and it decreases > > all right when magnetic dipoles align! > > > > You'll find a good explanation at the url below, > > for the case where one small dipole swivels inside > another, larger one (see their > > drawing for the geometry). In this simple case no > linear motion is involved, just the > > rotation to alignment we are concerned with, very > much like a compass needle aligns with > > the Earth's magnetic field without being pulled as > a whole one way or another. > > > > > http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magpot.html > : > > > > "A magnetic dipole moment in a magnetic field will > possess potential energy which > > depends upon its orientation with respect to the > magnetic field. Since magnetic sources > > are inherently dipole sources which can be > visualized as a current loop with current I > > and area A, the energy is usually expressed in > terms of the magnetic dipole moment: > > > > U = -µ . B where µ=IA > > > > The energy is expressed as a scalar product, and > implies that the energy is lowest when > > the magnetic moment is aligned with the magnetic > field..." > > > > Therefore if the small magnet swivels without > friction it should oscillate like a pendulum > > around the aligned position, with energy being > similarly transferred back and forth between > > potential energy (max at max disalignment) and > kinetic energy plus field energy (max at > alignment). > > Variation of the latter can probably be neglected > in the small magnet vs big magnet case, > > just like one neglects the complete system's > gravitational field energy variation when > > deriving the pendulum's motion in the Earth's > gravitational field. > > > I mentioned that early on in the discussion that such > a dipole oscillates back and forth > due to momentum and magnetic attraction until friction > dissipates such energy. Although, > once again, that is beside the point. The point is > energy is coming from something > ***while the two dipoles are accelerating > angularly***. Below I'll describe the process > once again. > > > > > Energy conserved in standard physics, > unsurprisingly. > > No, no, no. We're *not* talking about the energy > conservation of the dipole oscillating > back and forth. We are *not* talking about > permanently removing energy from the electron > spin. As previously stated, such a process is > temporary so long as the dipoles remain > magnetically aligned and at their separation distance. > > Again, consider two magnets initially at rest and > magnetically unaligned. The two dipoles > then accelerate angularly to magnetic alignment when > released, thus gaining KE and an > increase in net magnetic field. Did you know that when > you apply a magnetic field to > magnetic material at curie temperature there is a > significant increase in temperature > (over 4 C)? When on intensely studies magnetic > materials the reason becomes clear as to > why. At curie temperature the magnetic dipole moments > are for the most part unaligned. > When the field is applied the dipoles align. Again, > the process of aligning dipoles adds > energy. So even the electron gains KE during such a > process. > > We are trying to find the source of that energy. > Again, if we *knew* nothing about an > electro-magnet or air coil then at best we could > merely say, "Oh, well, it's just > potential energy. So we can't say which came first." > Fortunately we now have technology > that indeed reveals that such a process requires > energy. We have technology that can > create magnetic fields on demand-- the electro-magnet. > The electro-magnet clearly reveals > that it consumes energy from the current source while > the two dipoles are rotating to > alignment. Therefore we can no longer nonchalantly > ignore and brush off such an issue. > > Same goes for gravity. Presently we cannot generate a > gravity field on demand; i.e., an > electro-gravity coil. When a ball is moved upward > away from Earth we are adding PE to the > system. Presently most physicists just nonchalantly > accept the existence of PE, as it's > quite possibly out of our reach to understand where > that actual potential energy went. > Although, lets say we have technology to create an > electro-gravity coil. So we're out in > free-space and turn on the gravity coil. An object > begins accelerating toward the > gravity-coil. Since we presently know what happens > when we perform such an experiment > with an electro-magnet coil and ferromagnetic > material, we can theorize the same might > happen with an electro-gravity coil, which is > acceleration drains energy from the current > source that generates such a field. So what is > happening is energy is being moved from > the electro-magnet device to the accelerating object. > Therefore, when we use the magnetic > dipole moment of the electron instead of the air coil > electro-magnet we once again gain > kinetic energy. It appears such energy comes from > whatever sustains the electron spin. To > blow off such a quest IMHO is foolish, as there is a > great deal of valuable potential > experiments in regards to such an effect. For > example, one could study possible decrease > in electron life span during such a process. IOW, > perhaps the process of ***temporarily*** > draining the source that sustains the electron > slightly reduces the lifespan of such an > electron. We don't know what will happen. As example, > perhaps given present best > technology we could influence one electron to self > annihilate per week. IOW, such an > experiment would resemble the following outline --> > > Setup: A piece of pure iron material inside a > superconducting coil. > 1. Apply a 10 T field to iron for 1 ms. > 2. Analysis --> Were any electrons annihilated? Repeat > experiment if not. > > Perhaps there's a certain probability of an electron > annihilating due to temporarily > removing energy from its source. Such an experiment > could take minutes, weeks, or perhaps > centuries to cause one electron annihilation with > present technology. I for one would > like to know where such energy comes from. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > TV dinner still cooling? > Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. > http://tv.yahoo.com/ > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 18:34:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0Q2YT1k020813; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:34:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0Q2YQ64020770; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:34:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:34:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: China -A New Entry in the Magnetic Conversion of Zero Point Energy Has Surfaced! Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:34:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <23qir2l1nc6v97dfslr732k8i0od4454dm@4ax.com> References: <2e6ir2tgb703js0q7vqnjk41lhbc89bbu6@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:34:22 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0Q2YMrf020727 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72271 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:59:49 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Robin, > >The Wang generator is not at all like the Steorn work. As far as I know, >there is no liquid in the Steorn inventiions. Wang uses two. The first is a >complex ferrofluid and the second might be Hg. > >The comment you found had an entirely different meaning and his English is >far from perfect. > >Mark [snip] I agree. It looks like he is actually suggesting a sort of reciprocal arrangement. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 21:58:20 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0Q5w8tt018520; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:58:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0Q5w2HY018476; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:58:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:58:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=WN0VGidJPIbXcdcNzwBZenrICtWub2G3hnL9IphEfflVC9ZlmeqRg0Yx7oW54YucpTOR9IxHt7CDbV6eiGLqzEIEaKiOWHvYNtC70qt75vB/xRpSZJVbU19zUOAmaSfR2VK/QC4ptHD5oI+pGunfE9Uq0eu1T45py1JwatQps78=; X-YMail-OSG: jQlCkmwVM1kqkn77VDvkZHT2bhIWJNvJAohPg3rgjx3yZOdmrncJCcXZwpdkwdrkiA1Mr5GU7w_7dsVhMlXrqLCR0bKy5aBOHlDCTWGns_XsZGgZS3ibdr1Q3va.IFbeuwhhaRyMNzIpwM2Wv1dAbugOKr8DwbjnCAo4Pczz.zb.NJkPdEMCQua_eM3eVtmJb5LfHg-- Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:58:00 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <628864.47785.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72272 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: --- > Paul, if I understand correctly your long comments below (BTW could we be as concise as possible, and stick to the convention of new stuff on top whenever possible?), --- Sorry, I was merely replying to your comment. Michel Jullian wrote: --- > you believe that potential energy in general (not just magnetic, but also gravitational, electric too I suppose...) is just a convenient concept, and there must be some real energy underlying this concept, and you want to know where this real energy comes from. > > I believe on the contrary that potential energy is as real as energy can be. Taking gravity as an example (simpler than magnetism, no cross-products, Curie points etc..), the PE lost by the falling weight is exactly equal, _by definition_, to the work that must be done to lift it back up. If PE wasn't real there would be no real counterpart to the real work done when lifting the weight, as there would be no counterpart to the kinetic energy of the weight when it falls. > Besides you can't replace PE by a _quantifiable_ energy as you suggest (annihilated or weakened electrons), because PE has an arbitrary zero. We can't tell how much intrinsic PE there is in the weight because we don't know on which planet we are going to let it fall, agreed? --- No offense intended, but it seems you are not grasping the depth of my theory, as what you say adds even more credence to my theory, which dismisses the idea of PE; i.e., you don't know how much PE you'll ever need. If you carefully read this entire reply I believe you could only agree with my theory in all honesty. Two iron atoms could have been created 1 micron apart, which would constitute a certain amount of PE. The iron atoms could have been created in different solar systems, which would constitute a certain amount of PE. The iron atoms could have been created in different galaxies, which would constitute a certain amount of PE. The iron atoms could have been created in different universes/big-bang (see M-theory on beyond our big bang), which would constitute a certain amount of PE. You are asking way too much from nature. I've written far too many simulation programs to know such an idea as PE is a nightmare for the simple reason that you can ***add*** energy to the system from nowhere. This is very clear and simple in a simulation program. If you want to add more energy to the system you simply create two iron atoms that are even farther apart and then allow them to accelerate toward each other. :-( My theory simply states energy is simply moved from one location to another. When the two magnets accelerate toward each other it consumes energy. And guess what, my theory is already confirmed as much as we know two air core electro-magnets do indeed consume energy as they accelerate toward each other. Ah, and here's another surprising confirmation. :-) We now have technology to create electric fields on demand, which is in complete agreement with my theory. Consider two separated objects. One is negatively charged and the other is positively charged. When separated there exists an appreciably charged space, which constitutes energy. We know that it requires energy to charge space-- capacitors. As the two objects accelerate toward each other the net electric fields decrease, as the negative & positive fields cancel. :-) In a nutshell, we started with energy that constitutes charged space, and we ended up with "energy," the moving object. Lets see if the theory holds up to the opposite situation-- two objects charged with the same polarity. Again we initially have charged space. It requires energy to force the two objects closer together. This consumed energy goes in the way of charged space, as the two fields overlap. To top it all off, my theory is far simpler. In physics we strive to find the most fundamental theory. Your theory requires KE and PE. My theory requires one, plain old "energy." :-) I am sorry, but IMHO the evidence is overwhelming that my theory is correct-- knock on wood, lol. Think about it for a while. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 25 23:52:04 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0Q7pu9j015665; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 23:51:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0Q7psG3015650; Thu, 25 Jan 2007 23:51:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 23:51:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <04df01c7411e$d80b9310$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <628864.47785.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:51:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0Q7prIi015634 Resent-Message-ID: <-7ohy.A.e0D.aMbuFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72273 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I did read your reply, I did think for a while, but I still disagree ;-) You insist on some _internal_ energy being spent while the object falls. Where would it come from when the object is an elementary particle such as an electron, would it lose mass or something? :-) Michel P.S. Again, kindly keep your reply short, and put it on top or near the top (blind people friendly convention, they read the posts by text to speech software and don't want to hear all the old stuff they already know about -especially when it's lengthy- before getting to the new stuff, as one of them told me once on another mailing list) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > --- > > Paul, if I understand correctly your long comments > below (BTW could we be as concise as > possible, and stick to the convention of new stuff on > top whenever possible?), > --- > > > Sorry, I was merely replying to your comment. > > > > > Michel Jullian wrote: > --- > > you believe that potential energy in general (not > just magnetic, but also > gravitational, electric too I suppose...) is just a > convenient concept, and there must be > some real energy underlying this concept, and you want > to know where this real energy > comes from. > > > > I believe on the contrary that potential energy is > as real as energy can be. Taking > gravity as an example (simpler than magnetism, no > cross-products, Curie points etc..), the > PE lost by the falling weight is exactly equal, _by > definition_, to the work that must be > done to lift it back up. If PE wasn't real there would > be no real counterpart to the real > work done when lifting the weight, as there would be > no counterpart to the kinetic energy > of the weight when it falls. > > Besides you can't replace PE by a _quantifiable_ > energy as you suggest (annihilated or > weakened electrons), because PE has an arbitrary zero. > We can't tell how much intrinsic PE > there is in the weight because we don't know on which > planet we are going to let it fall, > agreed? > --- > > > No offense intended, but it seems you are not grasping > the depth of my theory, as what you > say adds even more credence to my theory, which > dismisses the idea of PE; i.e., you don't > know how much PE you'll ever need. If you carefully > read this entire reply I believe you > could only agree with my theory in all honesty. > > Two iron atoms could have been created 1 micron apart, > which would constitute a certain > amount of PE. The iron atoms could have been created > in different solar systems, which > would constitute a certain amount of PE. The iron > atoms could have been created in > different galaxies, which would constitute a certain > amount of PE. The iron atoms could > have been created in different universes/big-bang (see > M-theory on beyond our big bang), > which would constitute a certain amount of PE. > > You are asking way too much from nature. I've written > far too many simulation programs to > know such an idea as PE is a nightmare for the simple > reason that you can ***add*** energy > to the system from nowhere. This is very clear and > simple in a simulation program. If you > want to add more energy to the system you simply > create two iron atoms that are even > farther apart and then allow them to accelerate toward > each other. :-( > > My theory simply states energy is simply moved from > one location to another. When the two > magnets accelerate toward each other it consumes > energy. And guess what, my theory is > already confirmed as much as we know two air core > electro-magnets do indeed consume energy > as they accelerate toward each other. > > Ah, and here's another surprising confirmation. :-) We > now have technology to create > electric fields on demand, which is in complete > agreement with my theory. Consider two > separated objects. One is negatively charged and the > other is positively charged. When > separated there exists an appreciably charged space, > which constitutes energy. We know > that it requires energy to charge space-- capacitors. > As the two objects accelerate > toward each other the net electric fields decrease, as > the negative & positive fields > cancel. :-) In a nutshell, we started with energy > that constitutes charged space, and we > ended up with "energy," the moving object. > > Lets see if the theory holds up to the opposite > situation-- two objects charged with the > same polarity. Again we initially have charged space. > It requires energy to force the two > objects closer together. This consumed energy goes in > the way of charged space, as the two > fields overlap. > > To top it all off, my theory is far simpler. In > physics we strive to find the most > fundamental theory. Your theory requires KE and PE. > My theory requires one, plain old > "energy." :-) > > I am sorry, but IMHO the evidence is overwhelming that > my theory is correct-- knock on > wood, lol. > > Think about it for a while. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate > in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 00:29:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0Q8TTQG024429; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:29:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0Q8TSqE024420; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:29:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:29:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Xnng14aEynLPMngPbvSsmBSq9cyOo+C3z3It/1a3yH4BXEMXwCPk+/xYOz/r06l/; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-2200715268298897@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 01:29:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9404d6cc312366a13abe18ca9ec9dd99e1b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.47 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72274 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Einstein's Elevator & Le Sage's Gravity Theory Status: O X-Status: ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Will a sphere within a sphere (a ball-bearing in a transparent hollow sphere) due to the gravitational attraction between them, center itself during free fall? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Sage%27s_theory_of_gravitation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_general_relativity Or? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Will a sphere within a sphere (a ball-bearing in a transparent hollow sphere)
due to the gravitational attraction between them, center itself during free fall?
 
 
 
Or?
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 05:49:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QDnWOo008863; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:49:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QDnTSo008843; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:49:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:49:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000d01c74150$cad5b220$20027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:49:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7411E.7F792AA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72275 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Energy *Violations* using " standard" physics Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7411E.7F792AA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C7411E.7F7AB140" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C7411E.7F7AB140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Excerps from Paul's post.. >You are asking way too much from nature. Nature?.. do you mean Physics? we actually know little about = physics.. perhaps some assumed values is all. >My theory simply states energy is simply moved from >one location to another.=20 Location? do you mean Regimes? unless we know the origin, it = becomes impossible to "track" it's movement from regime to regime. The account of Moses coming down off the mountain ... he said.. my = prayer is that I would know God... Moses spent 40 days up on the = mountain in conversation and instruction from God.. and he discovered he = was almost vacant as to an understanding. I have my physics textbook from engineering school printed 1940's. It = is as reliable as any present day literate work. What we may be seeing in this next generation of emerging scholars could = be similar to the breakout of technology at Florence Italy in the = 1500's. Consider that the people that burned their draft cards in the = 60's are now in charge in Washington. Ask yourself what happened to = those that entered academia rather than politics? Did they hinder the = advance of science? How could a single generation put a man on the moon and the next = generation query what "is" is while driving Enron into the ground like a = tent stake and getting the nation into another " by jingo" war? Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C7411E.7F7AB140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
 
Excerps from Paul's post..
 
>You are asking way too much from nature.
 
      Nature?.. do you mean Physics?  = we=20 actually know little about physics.. perhaps some assumed values is = all.

>My theory simply states energy is simply moved from
>one = location=20 to another.

     Location?  do you mean Regimes? unless = we know=20 the origin, it becomes impossible to "track" it's movement from regime = to=20 regime.

 The account of Moses coming down off the mountain ... he said.. = my=20 prayer is that I would know God...  Moses spent 40 days up on the = mountain=20 in conversation and instruction from God.. and he discovered he was = almost=20 vacant as to an understanding.

 I have my physics textbook from engineering school printed = 1940's.=20 It is as reliable as any present day literate work.

What we may be seeing in this next generation of emerging scholars = could be=20 similar to the breakout of technology at Florence Italy in the 1500's. = Consider=20 that the people that burned their draft cards in the 60's are now in = charge in=20 Washington. Ask yourself what happened to those that entered academia = rather=20 than politics? Did they hinder the advance of science?

 How could a single generation  put a man on the moon and = the next=20 generation query what "is" is while driving Enron into the ground like a = tent=20 stake and getting  the nation into another " by jingo" = war?

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C7411E.7F7AB140-- ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7411E.7F792AA0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000801c74150$c9c41b10$20027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7411E.7F792AA0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 06:02:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QE2Vl7018439; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:02:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QE2RJA018390; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:02:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 06:02:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <002101c74152$99da9030$20027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: <410-2200715268298897@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:02:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C74120.48E4C6A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72276 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re: Einstein's Elevator & Le Sage's Gravity Theory Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C74120.48E4C6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred wrote.. Will a sphere within a sphere (a ball-bearing in a transparent hollow = sphere) due to the gravitational attraction between them, center itself during = free fall ? The inner ball should began to rotate until it begins to rub the inner = wall. Richard ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C74120.48E4C6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Fred wrote..

Will a sphere within a sphere (a=20 ball-bearing in a transparent hollow sphere)
due to the gravitational attraction = between=20 them, center itself during free fall ?
 
 
 
The inner ball should began to rotate = until it begins to rub  the inner wall.
 
Richard
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C74120.48E4C6A0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 07:03:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QF334v001849; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:03:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QF2plb001765; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:02:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:02:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 93bmWb4VM1mVq7GIYA6YzTeIIfJq4_A4oH.Zepp4OnMsKOZdq1bVGOcngcblKHdrNDVSg1iFgAM.86Suc6elsDyHhNAcGHcU4fjX4JzTiBj_0Ng8B90dRGlRXaGqo8jKH44EteqHUQY3TW4- Message-ID: <45BA1775.5070301@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:00:05 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Einstein's Elevator & Le Sage's Gravity Theory References: <410-2200715268298897@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-2200715268298897@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72277 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > Will a sphere within a sphere (a ball-bearing in a transparent hollow > sphere) > due to the gravitational attraction between them, center itself during > free fall? First, in Newtonian gravitation: Inside a uniform spherical shell there's no gravitational field (no field due to the shell, that is), so the ball bearing will ignore the shell and fall normally. It won't move to the center. The force of gravity exerted by the inner ball on the entire surface of the shell will cancel, and the shell won't accelerate as a result of the ball bearing's field -- so it, too, will therefore fall normally, and won't "center itself" around the ball bearing. You can check this by integrating the field of a point particle over an offset spherical shell (and noting that the ball bearing consists of a big blob of point particles), or you can just use conservation of momentum to argue that since the ball bearing doesn't feel a force from the shell, the shell must not feel a (net) force from the ball bearing either. Now, in relativity: It's a whole lot harder, but I think the answer's the same, based on this very sloppy argument: Within the chamber in the big sphere, the stress/energy tensor is zero (assuming the lights are off, and ignoring the contribution of the ball bearing). If the stress tensor is zero, then the Ricci tensor must be zero too, by Einstein's field equation. And if the Ricci tensor is zero, then a small ball of initially comoving particles won't change in volume as time goes by (though it _may_ deform), since that's what the Ricci tensor measures. What that says is that there aren't any points of attraction or repulsion in empty space, but there may be tidal effects. Tidal effects => a saddle point in the field. Inside the chamber, the field due to the shell must be spherically symmetric, so we _can't_ have a saddle point in the center of the sphere. Therefore, particles can't be attracted to the center of the sphere (nor repelled from it). Since momentum is still conserved in GR, I _think_ we can again argue that the big sphere can't be pulled "to the center" by the small sphere, either, in that case. > > *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Sage%27s_theory_of_gravitation* > > _*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_general_relativity*_ > > Or? > > Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 08:13:22 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QGCqBe006250; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:12:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QG1mWB001319; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:01:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:01:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=WCSoIwEIlfUEnHza/ixZc9QQR970q/ZtpBrP3kueAlNkv/kYgIMVBTzDCsMU2iUvZdbA5xK8uq7Mm9uyAFA+h8goczp0CTivmKqUK0QC0iD/mnhV1a5v74bBCPEWtGpSl7IHf9RsoxUqOjQOvl6MgCunMqywBl9zLcvm22nRY+g=; X-YMail-OSG: nKaYB9gVM1kQA_99ssDaFjdF3mZhFcE6lfGQJ_gohsYv8JkhE7EtfTaEgW.weAshug-- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:01:46 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <2782.87344.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72278 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Michel Jullian wrote: > I did read your reply, I did think for a while, but I still disagree ;-) > > You insist on some _internal_ energy being spent while the object falls. Where would it come from when the object is an elementary particle such as an electron, would it lose mass or something? :-) Those are items I addressed in a previous post. Here's an outline though. Short answer is we simply do not know what's inside the electron, what causes and sustains the E-field, the magnetic dipole moment, angular momentum, etc. Such fields would normally disperse and spread across space on their own accord. For now it's called the electron and left at that, but the quest still exists. What we do know --> * The electron creates a magnetic field. * A current loop creates a magnetic field. * The electron creates a magnetic dipole moment. * A current loop creates a magnetic dipole moment. * The electron spin can be expressed in Ampere Meters2 units. * A current loop can be expressed in Ampere Meters2 units. * An electron was created and will one day be destroyed. * A current loop was created and will one day be destroyed. * Two attracting dipoles accelerating toward each other consumes energy from the current loop source. Two repelling dipoles decelerating toward each other adds energy to the current loop source. * (still to be determined). That's just B-field comparison. Top that off with the fact that the same applies to the E-field, as such energy comparisons work out nicely. And there are the difficulties with PE. Two iron atoms created 1 micron apart have a certain amount of PE. Two iron atoms created galaxies apart have a certain amount of PE. Two iron atoms created in different big-bang universes as claimed by M-theory have a certain amount of PE. Not to mention the idea that are claiming nature somehow hides such PE. Present theory requires two forms of energy, KE and PE. My theory simplifies and does away with the idea of hidden PE. Regards, Paul Lowrance > Michel > > P.S. Again, kindly keep your reply short, and put it on top or near the top (blind people friendly convention, they read the posts by text to speech software and don't want to hear all the old stuff they already know about -especially when it's lengthy- before getting to the new stuff, as one of them told me once on another mailing list) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 6:58 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> --- >>> Paul, if I understand correctly your long comments >> below (BTW could we be as concise as >> possible, and stick to the convention of new stuff on >> top whenever possible?), >> --- >> >> >> Sorry, I was merely replying to your comment. >> >> >> >> >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> --- >>> you believe that potential energy in general (not >> just magnetic, but also >> gravitational, electric too I suppose...) is just a >> convenient concept, and there must be >> some real energy underlying this concept, and you want >> to know where this real energy >> comes from. >>> I believe on the contrary that potential energy is >> as real as energy can be. Taking >> gravity as an example (simpler than magnetism, no >> cross-products, Curie points etc..), the >> PE lost by the falling weight is exactly equal, _by >> definition_, to the work that must be >> done to lift it back up. If PE wasn't real there would >> be no real counterpart to the real >> work done when lifting the weight, as there would be >> no counterpart to the kinetic energy >> of the weight when it falls. >>> Besides you can't replace PE by a _quantifiable_ >> energy as you suggest (annihilated or >> weakened electrons), because PE has an arbitrary zero. >> We can't tell how much intrinsic PE >> there is in the weight because we don't know on which >> planet we are going to let it fall, >> agreed? >> --- >> >> >> No offense intended, but it seems you are not grasping >> the depth of my theory, as what you >> say adds even more credence to my theory, which >> dismisses the idea of PE; i.e., you don't >> know how much PE you'll ever need. If you carefully >> read this entire reply I believe you >> could only agree with my theory in all honesty. >> >> Two iron atoms could have been created 1 micron apart, >> which would constitute a certain >> amount of PE. The iron atoms could have been created >> in different solar systems, which >> would constitute a certain amount of PE. The iron >> atoms could have been created in >> different galaxies, which would constitute a certain >> amount of PE. The iron atoms could >> have been created in different universes/big-bang (see >> M-theory on beyond our big bang), >> which would constitute a certain amount of PE. >> >> You are asking way too much from nature. I've written >> far too many simulation programs to >> know such an idea as PE is a nightmare for the simple >> reason that you can ***add*** energy >> to the system from nowhere. This is very clear and >> simple in a simulation program. If you >> want to add more energy to the system you simply >> create two iron atoms that are even >> farther apart and then allow them to accelerate toward >> each other. :-( >> >> My theory simply states energy is simply moved from >> one location to another. When the two >> magnets accelerate toward each other it consumes >> energy. And guess what, my theory is >> already confirmed as much as we know two air core >> electro-magnets do indeed consume energy >> as they accelerate toward each other. >> >> Ah, and here's another surprising confirmation. :-) We >> now have technology to create >> electric fields on demand, which is in complete >> agreement with my theory. Consider two >> separated objects. One is negatively charged and the >> other is positively charged. When >> separated there exists an appreciably charged space, >> which constitutes energy. We know >> that it requires energy to charge space-- capacitors. >> As the two objects accelerate >> toward each other the net electric fields decrease, as >> the negative & positive fields >> cancel. :-) In a nutshell, we started with energy >> that constitutes charged space, and we >> ended up with "energy," the moving object. >> >> Lets see if the theory holds up to the opposite >> situation-- two objects charged with the >> same polarity. Again we initially have charged space. >> It requires energy to force the two >> objects closer together. This consumed energy goes in >> the way of charged space, as the two >> fields overlap. >> >> To top it all off, my theory is far simpler. In >> physics we strive to find the most >> fundamental theory. Your theory requires KE and PE. >> My theory requires one, plain old >> "energy." :-) >> >> I am sorry, but IMHO the evidence is overwhelming that >> my theory is correct-- knock on >> wood, lol. >> >> Think about it for a while. >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 08:15:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QGFg2N027966; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:15:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QGFemZ027937; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:15:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:15:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=bMunL8H1FC+OthdHhKOaSXIgyboabGIXOLoRMFu1VV4RvMkdV32W/3YxiRA4DC5pJzAUHzDRxRvHgSx1bt5Q+4c695vE4j68dtdMOwh9V/pc5TrzXYdhszy0EwwRZ9cVMkwhk2YzVfQ4krq72rqMqQ+2wEEKSf8PBlrW7EyEmKs=; X-YMail-OSG: CMbLw_kVM1m5xwch9rab0GvPSFNt048GYyfxupehH9KjNOZdOklyt00soOaro59gs7vbvZw.QMOc_q13wEBg666oxMMlSJL2YBSbvBRRmiEOwt4unaLxo8Fj8Ec1DHoDx6WxzbztocXfhZO4xqmUfaXIlCnvHM4NoIli9rUMhqGRE_rCiKPeUDXTH.mO3veobtBuuA-- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:15:35 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Energy *Violations* using " standard" physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <480070.62592.qm@web62406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <6foGbC.A.c0G.skiuFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72279 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RC Macaulay wrote: > Blank > > Excerps from Paul's post.. > >> You are asking way too much from nature. > > Nature?.. do you mean Physics? we actually know little about physics.. perhaps some assumed values is all. Some call it nature. Some call it the universe, etc. The name universe has now changed since M-theory claims the big-bang is not all there is, and I agree. IMHO there is no end. Often I simply refer to all there is as "nature." >> My theory simply states energy is simply moved from >> one location to another. > > Location? do you mean Regimes? unless we know the origin, it becomes impossible to "track" it's movement from regime to regime. Regime? You claim it is impossible to track where energy moves? We have a battery full of energy. Two energized attracting electro-magnets accelerate toward each other. We end up with KE and a net increase in magnetic field. We end up with less energy in the battery. Indeed I say energy moved from the battery. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 09:35:40 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QHZUNC029987; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:35:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QHZTcv029975; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:35:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:35:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <054801c74170$5ca5c9a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <2782.87344.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:35:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0QHZQs8029945 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72280 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I didn't understand your reply, would the elementary particle (any particle, e.g. a neutron, a quark) lose something while falling towards a planet? BTW, I wonder if PE shouldn't be viewed as a property of the universe rather than of an object. BTW2, the universe is all that exists, by definition. Parallel "universes" should be called something else. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Hi, > > Michel Jullian wrote: > > I did read your reply, I did think for a while, but > I still disagree ;-) > > > > You insist on some _internal_ energy being spent > while the object falls. Where would it > come from when the object is an elementary particle > such as an electron, would it lose > mass or something? :-) > > > Those are items I addressed in a previous post. > Here's an outline though. Short answer > is we simply do not know what's inside the electron, > what causes and sustains the E-field, > the magnetic dipole moment, angular momentum, etc. > Such fields would normally disperse > and spread across space on their own accord. For now > it's called the electron and left at > that, but the quest still exists. > > > What we do know --> > > * The electron creates a magnetic field. > * A current loop creates a magnetic field. > > * The electron creates a magnetic dipole moment. > * A current loop creates a magnetic dipole moment. > > * The electron spin can be expressed in Ampere Meters2 > units. > * A current loop can be expressed in Ampere Meters2 > units. > > * An electron was created and will one day be > destroyed. > * A current loop was created and will one day be > destroyed. > > * Two attracting dipoles accelerating toward each > other consumes energy from the current > loop source. Two repelling dipoles decelerating toward > each other adds energy to the > current loop source. > * (still to be determined). > > > That's just B-field comparison. Top that off with the > fact that the same applies to the > E-field, as such energy comparisons work out nicely. > > And there are the difficulties with PE. Two iron > atoms created 1 micron apart have a > certain amount of PE. Two iron atoms created galaxies > apart have a certain amount of PE. > Two iron atoms created in different big-bang universes > as claimed by M-theory have a > certain amount of PE. Not to mention the idea that > are claiming nature somehow hides such PE. > > Present theory requires two forms of energy, KE and > PE. My theory simplifies and does > away with the idea of hidden PE. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > > Michel > > > > P.S. Again, kindly keep your reply short, and put > it on top or near the top (blind > people friendly convention, they read the posts by > text to speech software and don't want > to hear all the old stuff they already know about > -especially when it's lengthy- before > getting to the new stuff, as one of them told me once > on another mailing list) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 6:58 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using > *standard* physics > > > > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >> --- > >>> Paul, if I understand correctly your long > comments > >> below (BTW could we be as concise as > >> possible, and stick to the convention of new stuff > on > >> top whenever possible?), > >> --- > >> > >> > >> Sorry, I was merely replying to your comment. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >> --- > >>> you believe that potential energy in general (not > >> just magnetic, but also > >> gravitational, electric too I suppose...) is just > a > >> convenient concept, and there must be > >> some real energy underlying this concept, and you > want > >> to know where this real energy > >> comes from. > >>> I believe on the contrary that potential energy > is > >> as real as energy can be. Taking > >> gravity as an example (simpler than magnetism, no > >> cross-products, Curie points etc..), the > >> PE lost by the falling weight is exactly equal, > _by > >> definition_, to the work that must be > >> done to lift it back up. If PE wasn't real there > would > >> be no real counterpart to the real > >> work done when lifting the weight, as there would > be > >> no counterpart to the kinetic energy > >> of the weight when it falls. > >>> Besides you can't replace PE by a _quantifiable_ > >> energy as you suggest (annihilated or > >> weakened electrons), because PE has an arbitrary > zero. > >> We can't tell how much intrinsic PE > >> there is in the weight because we don't know on > which > >> planet we are going to let it fall, > >> agreed? > >> --- > >> > >> > >> No offense intended, but it seems you are not > grasping > >> the depth of my theory, as what you > >> say adds even more credence to my theory, which > >> dismisses the idea of PE; i.e., you don't > >> know how much PE you'll ever need. If you > carefully > >> read this entire reply I believe you > >> could only agree with my theory in all honesty. > >> > >> Two iron atoms could have been created 1 micron > apart, > >> which would constitute a certain > >> amount of PE. The iron atoms could have been > created > >> in different solar systems, which > >> would constitute a certain amount of PE. The iron > >> atoms could have been created in > >> different galaxies, which would constitute a > certain > >> amount of PE. The iron atoms could > >> have been created in different universes/big-bang > (see > >> M-theory on beyond our big bang), > >> which would constitute a certain amount of PE. > >> > >> You are asking way too much from nature. I've > written > >> far too many simulation programs to > >> know such an idea as PE is a nightmare for the > simple > >> reason that you can ***add*** energy > >> to the system from nowhere. This is very clear > and > >> simple in a simulation program. If you > >> want to add more energy to the system you simply > >> create two iron atoms that are even > >> farther apart and then allow them to accelerate > toward > >> each other. :-( > >> > >> My theory simply states energy is simply moved > from > >> one location to another. When the two > >> magnets accelerate toward each other it consumes > >> energy. And guess what, my theory is > >> already confirmed as much as we know two air core > >> electro-magnets do indeed consume energy > >> as they accelerate toward each other. > >> > >> Ah, and here's another surprising confirmation. > :-) We > >> now have technology to create > >> electric fields on demand, which is in complete > >> agreement with my theory. Consider two > >> separated objects. One is negatively charged and > the > >> other is positively charged. When > >> separated there exists an appreciably charged > space, > >> which constitutes energy. We know > >> that it requires energy to charge space-- > capacitors. > >> As the two objects accelerate > >> toward each other the net electric fields > decrease, as > >> the negative & positive fields > >> cancel. :-) In a nutshell, we started with energy > >> that constitutes charged space, and we > >> ended up with "energy," the moving object. > >> > >> Lets see if the theory holds up to the opposite > >> situation-- two objects charged with the > >> same polarity. Again we initially have charged > space. > >> It requires energy to force the two > >> objects closer together. This consumed energy goes > in > >> the way of charged space, as the two > >> fields overlap. > >> > >> To top it all off, my theory is far simpler. In > >> physics we strive to find the most > >> fundamental theory. Your theory requires KE and > PE. > >> My theory requires one, plain old > >> "energy." :-) > >> > >> I am sorry, but IMHO the evidence is overwhelming > that > >> my theory is correct-- knock on > >> wood, lol. > >> > >> Think about it for a while. > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul Lowrance > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a PS3 game guru. > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. > http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 10:06:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QI5eHi015574; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:05:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QI5cNA015528; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:05:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:05:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:03:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-reply-to: <054801c74170$5ca5c9a0$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72281 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That begs the question how much PE does the universe have? Harry Michel Jullian wrote: > I didn't understand your reply, would the elementary particle (any particle, > e.g. a neutron, a quark) lose something while falling towards a planet? > > BTW, I wonder if PE shouldn't be viewed as a property of the universe rather > than of an object. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 10:53:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QIr392000942; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:53:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QIr1sH000917; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:53:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:53:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:51:27 -0500 From: Harry Veeder In-reply-to: <410-2200715268298897@earthlink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72282 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: was-Einstein's Elevator & Le Sage's Gravity Theory Status: O X-Status: >From the link Frederick Sparber provided on LeSage's theory of gravity: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Sage%27s_theory_of_gravitation "In the context of mainstream science (albeit not as an explanation of gravitation), the Lesage mechanism has been identified as a significant factor in the behavior of dusty plasma. A.M. Ignatov [95] has shown that an attractive force arises between two dust grains suspended in an isotropic collisionless plasma due to inelastic collisions between ions of the plasma and the grains of dust. This attractive force is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between dust grains, and can counterbalance the Coulomb repulsion between dust grains." I thought this might have some bearing on CF. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 10:55:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QItCwB001718; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:55:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QItBFr001705; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:55:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:55:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=l9TN7oWq8FNfloU7DbAOeXUDvSLEQHIP833Y7ays1WP3o6ugv9tS6RoikdvLnF3K1H/s01JxXWPEeEhzAmSVOdrzPyGSGPEyjv/2TMG8piAq4E/lhXZoG52oh3UQ4uTIc0oQBPN+BgF11dIZVx/hW6Tl+GVhUrajoFKgiPC8IvI=; X-YMail-OSG: s6JzftEVM1mp4GnN1aRBKy3z_riCezYb41ldKVHA4HKNxx1a..sV7Z4bBPNx.HZTUjUP8ehNX0NC.JzffP6Inliihiz5VYgCWrMD8Cc0FQ6Yn2QXVtxZWR0D9Gn703SR2blOzWli2oJXn2CZCkQvjbZuIUE7f42ydHolMCz0N.pHDbPvteWv.MdC3Kpukpw7cXLpCw-- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:55:10 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <420322.29028.qm@web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72283 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michel Jullian wrote: > I didn't understand your reply, would the elementary particle (any particle, e.g. a neutron, a quark) lose something while falling towards a planet? Basically you're asking what sustains such particles. To perhaps provide you with a different POV, here's an analogy even though all analogies are imperfect, but they server to make a point. The electro-magnet represents the particle. The source of power (current source) that sustains the electro-magnet would represent "Space." We agree energy is being moved from the battery when two electro-magnets accelerate toward each other in magnetic attraction. We agree such energy is moved from the battery to KE and an increase in B-field. In the case of permanent magnets, we both agree that energy of "some sort" is moving to the magnets in way of KE in addition to a net increase in B-field. You refer to such an energy source as PE. I am pointing out very obvious patterns in nature that indicates such energy is not yet another different aspect. That such PE is not yet another separate type. We see PE popping its head in QM and Classical equations. IMHO PE should *not* be some magical glue to bond and balance mathematical theories together. You might ask as to what patterns in nature am I referring to. Anything from springs to electro-magnets. Long ago people probably looked at the spring and could only imagine where such energy was being stored, where it was going to and coming from. Today the spring is no mystery. We know about atomic bonds. :-) When humanity discovers an electro-gravity coil then do you truly believe it will require *no* energy when objects accelerate toward such a coil while it is on? We already know what happens when the electro-magnet coil attracts magnetic materials. It requires energy. > BTW, I wonder if PE shouldn't be viewed as a property of the universe rather than of an object. That's exactly what you seem to believe. As two iron atoms accelerate toward each other we know it gains KE and a net increase in magnetic field. You believe nature has a back door of energy, figuratively speaking. A hidden storage compartment that cannot be seen or analyzed while in storage. Such a theory is fine if one has nothing else, or until we begin to perceive such aforementioned patterns in nature, or until we analyze the equivalent of the magnetic dipole moment, which we call the electro-magnet. Also, such a concept of PE is very ugly as far as simulation programs are concerned. It's difficult enough simulation known energy. > BTW2, the universe is all that exists, by definition. Parallel "universes" should be called something else. I believe you are confusing Omniverse or Multiverse with the word "universe." You cannot say the universe is all there is if you accept parallel universes. It's just a definition anyway, which I often call "all there is" as Nature, but sometimes I prefer Omniverse. Regards, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 11:21:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QJLALZ021864; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:21:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QJL8cH021853; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:21:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:21:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:19:36 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Einstein's Elevator & Le Sage's Gravity Theory In-reply-to: <45BA1775.5070301@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72284 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Consider the situation far from any planets or stars. If the ball-bearing is initially at the centre of the shell it will remain there. If it is initially off centre, the ball bearing and the shell will move so as to minimize the distance between the point on the shell that was initially closest to the ball bearing. This is my prediction. It does not violate conservation of momentum, but it is not based on Newton's or Einstein's conception of gravity. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 11:36:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QJZq7J002172; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:35:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QJZoAF002150; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:35:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:35:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: RoQtb50VM1kVa9kKNQi3evmf2keP979rk8u1G1Lzh0xQKfA4lIu4vVBIQZ.Q5FSwYcEIP_eftuIkUSGVaRTzNNN5wVyYjll5o2JSY646INPv2Z6D2HNoqZ_TGjmV4rUq4bCd7vcMVUbuZ8w- Message-ID: <45BA5814.7020502@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:35:48 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Einstein's Elevator & Le Sage's Gravity Theory References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72285 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Consider the situation far from any planets or stars. > > If the ball-bearing is initially at the centre of the shell it will remain > there. If it is initially off centre, the ball bearing and the shell will > move so as to minimize the distance between the point on the shell that was > initially closest to the ball bearing. > > > This is my prediction. It does not violate conservation of momentum, > but it is not based on Newton's or Einstein's conception of gravity. I haven't worked it out, but I think a force going as 1/r^3 would have that effect. Actually any rate of falloff faster than 1/r^2 should do that, I think. But ... the fact that Mercury's orbit precesses as it does is evidence that "real" gravity around a spherically symmetric object doesn't actually fall off as 1/r^2 (falls off a bit faster, IIRC), which makes me wonder whether "real" gravity would also show that effect, albeit weakly (my "proof" using the Ricci tensor notwithstanding ... among other things I assumed a massless ball bearing, which is a little wrong). > > Harry > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 14:03:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QM3qZj003789; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:03:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QM3ouL003773; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:03:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:03:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:01:40 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-reply-to: <420322.29028.qm@web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <2_5UsB.A.46.GrnuFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72286 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul, I think what you are alluding to is more correctly called "power" rather than "energy". Indeed, "power" can be defined without the concept of "energy". All you need to express power is force F times velocity v, *Dimensionally* this has the same units as [E]/[t], since [F][v] -> [m][a][v] -> [p]^2/[m][t] -> [m]^2[v]^2/[t] In first year physics the power needed to lift a weight is usually presented in terms of force f, the height it is lifted and the time taken( P = Fd/t = Work/t = E/t) This gives the _total_ power required, but the significance of the number lies in the design and completion of a task. This number might of interest to the person performing the task or to an energy planner but the machinations of men are simply incidental to nature. A quantity that is not incidental to nature is the instantaneous rate of power consumption. If the weight being lifted at time t has a velocity v, then the lifter (man, animal or machine) must have an instantaneous power consumption rate. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 14:34:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QMYUew007592; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:34:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QMYShF007579; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:34:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:34:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=OuCMXb816iNtZSoqZ62+j3JmdLGp3iXglSa3jrhmldmx+vg24a5/S5udbVqGEoL14Q2A0MO3yd/W76xSe8uY4KCALuyk0E29e6/EYmfLnFcQ9W2mh6bMEc1r6HGlzdfG296xASboWLaWMy68xkS0xwbXGeBL0lLy2EfEeGn7FZY=; X-YMail-OSG: eGWL7LAVM1mPoTylim8rbSAvU0auqH3xasT538nlCtkAIUlas_GtAX9luYaYtuY4qzL9YjqIXXWDSDZqWPwTJO6Q4ua8i4aKV9QjvZoIae285817SDWk4suNVKnsUbPuw15o1rzqUzJKpo4a6wmyw_qZuFn2vPzluvG9xFUPlHokx3xW9SqHsGYG74vuN7tA84Bq2g-- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:34:26 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <954777.85225.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72287 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Paul, > > > I think what you are alluding to is more correctly called "power" > rather than "energy". Indeed, "power" can be defined without the > concept of "energy". Hi Harry, The discussion was regarding PE. So I was referring to energy. Harry Veeder wrote: > That begs the question how much PE does the universe have? > > Harry > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> I didn't understand your reply, would the elementary particle (any particle, >> e.g. a neutron, a quark) lose something while falling towards a planet? >> >> BTW, I wonder if PE shouldn't be viewed as a property of the universe rather >> than of an object. Well that depends who you ask. Some believe such PE is unknown. IMHO there's no such thing as PE. I consider B & E fields energy. Michel Jullian wrote: > P.S. Again, kindly keep your reply short, and put it on > top or near the top (blind people friendly convention, they read > the posts by text to speech software and don't want to hear all the > old stuff they already know about Good idea. Regards, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 15:26:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QNQLMr009776; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:26:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QNQ7MB009564; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:26:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:26:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:24:33 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-reply-to: <954777.85225.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <_oGa4.A.UVC.O4ouFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72288 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul wrote: > Harry Veeder wrote: >> Paul, >> >> >> I think what you are alluding to is more correctly > called "power" >> rather than "energy". Indeed, "power" can be > defined without the >> concept of "energy". > > > Hi Harry, > > The discussion was regarding PE. So I was referring > to energy. > I know. Let be more frank. If PE irrelevant to physics then so is the concept of _energy_. However, as I tried to explain, the concept of _power_ is still relevant. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 15:50:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0QNoWwY025806; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:50:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0QNoUZE025785; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:50:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:50:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=RI6o3w73R1J27hggoWaVlmiOJFT+od703sz9r8i++wd4ntcp36atEuR88CO/5thX; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <18471706.1169855427636.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:50:27 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c7d4a602ce47a2499eb7c25d6e10bc433c0bbf57baf7f8413350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.51 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72289 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Launch Loop concept for earth to orbit access Status: O X-Status: [This message bounced for some reason. It said Vortex-L does not exist.] Here is a fascinating concept! This resembles a space elevator, but the author believes it could be built with conventional materials, rather than superstrong materials that have not yet been invented. It seems like it would be cheaper than a space elevator, and it probably could be deployed sooner. See: http://www.launchloop.com/isdc2002loop.pdf http://www.launchloop.com/ This is essentially a round rail-like structure 5 cm in diameter, 2700 km long, which is held 80 km high above the surface of the earth. Inside the rail is a vacuum, and at the very center is a long continuous steel band moving along at 50,000 kph. (I think it is a steel band, but perhaps it is made up discrete pieces of iron?) The moving steel band does not touch the walls of the rail of course -- it would vaporize it. That's the hard part. The band must be held precisely away from the walls with magnetic forces similar to those used in maglev trains. This is a dynamic structure; it requires 300 MW of continuous power to stay aloft. I gather you can raise it into position -- or lower it slowly for maintenance -- by turning up or down the power. It could launch roughly 40,000 tons per year. That's about as much as one Boeing 747 freight airplane per day. The payload rides along the rail. It is also accelerated like a maglev at 3 G, and it does not make physical contact with the rail. Because it is a dynamic structure that requires continuous energy input, it is an ideal application for cold fusion. The 300 MW for a small launcher would cost practically nothing. A large-scale launcher with a 20 GW power supply could launch 6,000,000 tons per year. This thing would also make a very efficient energy storage device, like a gigantic flywheel. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 16:03:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0R038YN000463; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:03:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0R037pA000452; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:03:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:03:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=ix.netcom.com; b=aC6LFY3TDLrBv+rxDphENzI0rIrOW37dg8rJudzYFEHSDrElx+WChEd5ZQowpKS1; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <23797839.1169856186751.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:03:06 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: c4cc7f5f697e8746f66dc3a06d5924d84ec81dc1d49a3ec8867a106226c42d25d81f49743ecfecf5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.32 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72290 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 26, 2007 Status: RO X-Status: -----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki >From: What's New >Sent: Jan 26, 2007 1:49 PM To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday January 26, 2007 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 26 Jan 07 Washington, DC 1. STATE OF THE UNION: "ALL WE ARE SAYING IS GIVE WAR A CHANCE." The President's actual words to Congress and the nation Tuesday evening were, "Our country is pursuing a new strategy in Iraq, and I ask you to give it a chance to work." But I kept thinking back to the chorus of the 1969 John Lennon song, "Give Peace A Chance." It became an anthem at peace protests. Perhaps George W. Bush remembers it too. After all, in 1969 he was 23 and a member of the National Guard, but was never called up. 2. STATES IN THE CORN BELT: THE AMERICAN ADDICTION TO ALCOHOL. "It's in our vital interest to diversify America's energy supply," the President said, "and the way forward is through technology." He's absolutely right, as long as we choose the right technologies. You may recall his 2003 State of the Union speech; he assured us that Freedom Car, "powered by hydrogen and pollution free," is the answer. This year he did not mention hydrogen. Hydrogen is dead. Last year Bush lamented America's addiction to oil, but the only thing that held down consumption was soaring prices. This year, Bush called for greater use of ethanol. Congressmen from the corn belt applauded wildly, but Mr. Bush didn't mention corn. Ethanol from corn is simply an agricultural subsidy. He was talking about making ethanol from switch grass and wood chips. Cellulosic ethanol has one big advantage: too little is known to say it can't work. 3. STATE OF CONFUSION: IS THE WISDOM OF THE MARKET PLACE A MYTH? "We made a lot of progress," the President said, "thanks to good policies here in Washington and the strong response of the market." I'm not sure what progress he had in mind, but roads were clogging with gas guzzling SUV monsters until fuel prices soared. If SUVs had been held to a reasonable CAFE standard, Ford would not have neglected improvements of its standard models, and might not be faced with cutting back, or worse. 4. VIRTUAL STATES: THERE WAS ONLY ROOM FOR ONE BIG CONTROVERSY. Unlike most State of the Union addresses, the President made no attempt to touch on all the critical issues the nation must deal with this year. With the exception of health care, the speech was devoted to Iraq and related terrorism issues. Coming out of a congressional election dominated by the Iraq War, that may be understandable. But here are a few terms a scientist might be inclined to search for in the speech and would not find: Basic research, which faces a severe funding crisis, failed to make the cut. Neither was the stem cell controversy, which pits religious fundamentalism against basic human compassion, touched on. Nor was the space program, which has evolved into a sort of pointless reality show adventure. Climate change and global warming, the major threats to civilization, warranted a bare mention. And finally, whatever happened to missile defense? THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org What's New is moving to a different listserver and our subscription process has changed. To change your subscription status please visit this link: http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 16:22:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0R0Kpi9013392; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:20:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0R0Ghq6007148; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:16:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:16:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=G2yL/bPHlImYrAzQl210tWGvHe76UGj/FRPJgfhGizqX01Mb3zs26FwEyRQvSnnIx+p+iJSzt3efLRSjPGoQhKp0z2tPL5dpVdiOLRxYFCAxsfDOanaqRKjdB3sZIr7XAlDSs7fra1u0EUB3fAfbgF/bypf9cbCb94ZIRdpef98=; X-YMail-OSG: CAHimtMVM1msL3JGBNaKKjkBeABbbJUu0yVd8URi Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:16:42 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <902748.97505.qm@web62411.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72291 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Harry Veeder wrote: > Paul wrote: > >> Harry Veeder wrote: >>> Paul, >>> >>> >>> I think what you are alluding to is more correctly >> called "power" >>> rather than "energy". Indeed, "power" can be >> defined without the >>> concept of "energy". >> >> Hi Harry, >> >> The discussion was regarding PE. So I was referring >> to energy. >> > > > I know. Let be more frank. > If PE irrelevant to physics then so is the concept of _energy_. That's not the point. I do not view fields as PE. I am pointing there are no hidden source of PE, that such PE is an illusion for the aid of mathematic due to a flawed theory. It's not math's fault, it's the theories fault. Consider four separated magnets (M1, M2, M3, M4) at random distances. Present physics does not know where the energy comes from so they simply say there is X1 PE between M1 & M2, X2 PE between M1 & M3, X3 PE between M1 & M4, X4 PE between M2 & M3, X5 PE between M2 & M4, X6 PE between M3 & M4. Such a theory is fine if that's all you have, but I've simplified it and done away with PE. For example, many centuries ago people did not understand where the energy contained in compressed air came from. They could have easily attributed it to a separate hidden energy storage compartment created and handled by nature, called PE. We now know that's a silly idea because we understand exactly where the energy is stored in compressed air. Present physics just calls it PE. There is no PE. What if you create two iron atoms, each 1 micron apart. How much PE is there. How much PE between two iron atoms created at the ends of our universe. How much PE between two iron atoms created in different universes. Nature does not need to know such silly things, because energy always exists, there's no hidden undetectable backdoor of energy. Energy is simply moved from one source to another. ... I think if you go back and read my posts you'll get the gist of the theory. > However, as I tried to explain, the concept of _power_ > is still relevant. Yes, but we don't need to mention both power and energy, as energy incorporates power over time. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 18:37:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0R2bLkT019447; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:37:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0R2bJpM019441; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:37:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:37:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:37:16 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0R2bIch019417 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72292 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: FW: [Vo]: Launch Loop concept for earth to orbit access Status: O X-Status: That sounds really ingenious :-) ! Thanks for posting it. I was thinking of a much smaller application to aircraft, i.e. a lot of weight of an airplane is in the wing spar. Suppose a ring of mercury or any liquid is circulating around the wings at high speed holding tension on the wings. They could be much lighter. In a helicopter, the centrifugal force (~10,000 G's) keeps the 8-12 inch wide airfoils extended. It is well known that the efficiency of an aircraft is highest with the airfoils right at the stall point (small chord), simply because the parasitic drag is minimized with the least wetted area. Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US http://HoytStearns.com -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell@mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 4:50 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Launch Loop concept for earth to orbit access [This message bounced for some reason. It said Vortex-L does not exist.] Here is a fascinating concept! This resembles a space elevator, but the author believes it could be built with conventional materials, rather than superstrong materials that have not yet been invented. It seems like it would be cheaper than a space elevator, and it probably could be deployed sooner. See: http://www.launchloop.com/isdc2002loop.pdf http://www.launchloop.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 19:30:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0R3U1Mh020452; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:30:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0R3Tw5s020418; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:29:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:29:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=ZTzMagASfyuynpwHKhqf+DblcN+BTkrlLsN6oi52ubUvHzt75HHl3k9GmlWsQ8TN; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <6317824.1169868597261.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 22:29:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Jed Rothwell Reply-To: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Launch Loop concept for earth to orbit access Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 25e7688170aa9857b054f8d56408d260416dc04816f3191c7d4a602ce47a2499d679f8889dc6c9e5f85a8349099f663e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.27 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72293 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com I wrote: > moving along at 50,000 kph. (I think it is a steel band, but perhaps it is made up discrete pieces of iron?) It has to be a steel band. - Jed From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 26 20:01:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0R41Am5003568; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 20:01:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0R419Kk003561; Fri, 26 Jan 2007 20:01:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 20:01:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "DonW" To: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 21:01:13 -0700 Message-ID: <002301c741c7$ca2c0b90$6600000a@donw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0R418BO003537 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72294 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Rethinking Alternative Energy http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=342064&rel_no=1 Rethinking Alternative Energy Some potentially powerful sources not getting attention Sebastian Baciu (SebastianB)   Alternative energy sources have been gaining increasing attention as of late, both in the media and with the public at large. Environmental issues even managed to sneak their way into the U.S. president's recently delivered State of the Union speech. Clearly the result of our dependence on fossil fuels, this focus on alternative energy sources has yielded some interesting results that have not all obtained the same amount of publicity. Cold fusion, despite its somewhat scandalous debut in a 1989 experiment, has managed to remain fairly concealed from the public at large despite the enormous prospects this technology demonstrates. Fusion, the process by which two nuclei are forced together to form a heavier nucleus (thereby releasing energy) normally requires enormous amounts of energy and heat in order to take place, and often, the energy and heat released from the reaction are rarely equivalent. Cold fusion on the other hand can take place at room temperature and pressure and has the same potential to produce energy as normal fusion. While not currently a commercially viable option for producing energy, cold fusion has the potential (albeit vague and distant) of being one of the most efficient forms of alternative energy. Cold Fusion, initially "discovered" in 1989 by Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, was heavily publicized and announced amid much hype and fanfare. The excitement quickly died down however, primarily due to problems many scientists had replicating the experiments as well as the exaggerated manner in which it was announced. In 2000 however, renowned author Sir Arthur C. Clarke urged for cold fusion research and experiments to again be considered seriously among the scientific community, due to promising experimental results from a number of institutions. As it turns out, cold fusion was not as completely forgotten as it first seemed. Among some of those still supporting cold fusion research is the U.S. Department of Defense, the French and Italian governments, as well as a handful of small private investors (venture capital firms in particular). Most major recent research in cold fusion has taken place either in the south of France at a research laboratory partially sponsored Toyota or at SRI International in northern California. While no research has yet pointed to cold fusion as being a definite possibility or a permanent to solution to the energy crisis, a sufficient number of people are convinced that it is a possibility, enough in fact for there to be an annual cold fusion conference. While most of the researchers participating are often older and have a stable career (many younger researchers fled the cold fusion research field years ago, amid the initial scandal it caused), we at least have some assurance this important field isn't being completely ignored. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 04:29:29 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RCTLSC003230; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 04:29:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RCTI7c003207; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 04:29:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 04:29:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=UOY3gpF1y5FbRD0xhFz5PKCFmvmwtWnlelL1XlxFUE1Vy6KMPELlJF+Ai5vfy5xw; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007162712293751@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 05:29:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9402bcad013885593ffbf0b20496c30a5d7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.189 Resent-Message-ID: <0rtQ1C.A.9x.eW0uFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72295 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re Van de Graaf Antics ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII A recently acquired Acculab VIC 10KG digital scale (10,100 grams) with +/- 1.0 gram resolution and a Science First model 10-060 (200 KV) Van de Graaff generator which specifies a "Positively Charged Sphere", with a how it works explanation, makes for some interesting endeavors. Setting the VDG on the scale (sitting on a throw rug on a carpeted floor) shows a weight of 1509 grams. When the VDG is running the weight increases to 1512 grams, and when a ~ 2 ft square aluminum sheet is held flat about 4 inches above the globe the reading drops to 1490 grams until it sparks through me and goes back up to 1511 grams. It seems like the whole room is electrified along with the smell of ozone. I had planned set it on the scale with it sitting atop an aluminum foil sheet laying on a 3 inch thick Styrofoam plank and using a bank of D batteries feeding an inverter feeding the scale and VDG so it can "pump" electrons between the globe and the foil so that there wouldn't' be any net charge on the setup wrt ground, and watching for weight change when a grounded sheet of aluminum foil is held above the globe. However... suggestions??? Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
A recently acquired Acculab VIC 10KG digital scale (10,100 grams)
with +/- 1.0 gram resolution and a Science First
model 10-060 (200 KV) Van de Graaff generator which specifies
a "Positively Charged Sphere", with a how it works explanation,
makes for some interesting endeavors.
 
Setting the VDG on the scale (sitting on a throw rug on a carpeted floor)
shows a weight of 1509 grams.
When the VDG is running the weight increases to 1512 grams, and when
a ~ 2 ft square aluminum sheet is held flat about 4 inches above the globe
the reading drops to 1490 grams until it sparks through me and goes back up
to 1511 grams. It seems like the whole room is electrified along with
the smell of ozone. 
 
I had planned set it on the scale with it sitting atop an aluminum foil sheet laying
on a 3 inch thick Styrofoam plank and using a bank of D batteries
feeding an inverter feeding the scale and VDG
so it can "pump" electrons between the globe and the
foil so that there wouldn't' be any net charge on the setup wrt ground,
and watching for weight change when a grounded sheet of
aluminum foil is held above the globe. However... suggestions???
 
Fred
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 04:50:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RCo8vk009822; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 04:50:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RCo79Z009817; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 04:50:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 04:50:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <061d01c74211$ac26ce10$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22007162712293751@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:50:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0RCo6Pu009791 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72296 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics Nice experiment Fred! Wrt the weight changes, it behaves qualitatively as expected doesn't it? Did the discharge hurt a lot? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:29 PM Subject: [Vo]: Re Van de Graaf Antics >A recently acquired Acculab VIC 10KG digital scale (10,100 grams) > with +/- 1.0 gram resolution and a Science First > model 10-060 (200 KV) Van de Graaff generator which specifies > a "Positively Charged Sphere", with a how it works explanation, > makes for some interesting endeavors. > > Setting the VDG on the scale (sitting on a throw rug on a carpeted floor) > shows a weight of 1509 grams. > When the VDG is running the weight increases to 1512 grams, and when > a ~ 2 ft square aluminum sheet is held flat about 4 inches above the globe > the reading drops to 1490 grams until it sparks through me and goes back up > to 1511 grams. It seems like the whole room is electrified along with > the smell of ozone. > > I had planned set it on the scale with it sitting atop an aluminum foil sheet laying > on a 3 inch thick Styrofoam plank and using a bank of D batteries > feeding an inverter feeding the scale and VDG > so it can "pump" electrons between the globe and the > foil so that there wouldn't' be any net charge on the setup wrt ground, > and watching for weight change when a grounded sheet of > aluminum foil is held above the globe. However... suggestions??? > > Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 05:12:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RDBxIZ024409; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 05:11:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RDBv5E024395; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 05:11:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 05:11:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <062301c74214$b8082870$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45B4E6A7.4090408@pacbell.net> <700dr2tibm899oe14hjujcgs30j4ds28nh@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:11:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0RDBtnU024376 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72297 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Unless the coatings diminish the material's permeability to some atmospheric gases lowering it's breakdown voltage? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery > In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:30:31 -0800: > Hi, > [snip] >>http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/18086/ >> >>The first two comments, at the end of the article, are interesting >>regarding the technology, but are not dispositive of whether or not this >>company is "for real" with the Bettery. >> >>Also General Motors recently announced ties and commitments to lithium >>ion battery maker A123 - which to some observers would seem to mean that >>GM was not impressed with EEStor. >> >>Wrong. To put it bluntly, GM will be the last auto company on the planet >>to find the cutting edge of anything new and promising - at least if >>they cannot control the company at the Board level. They are a dying >>giant on a downward spiral to oblivion, which is a sad thing to see, as >>the trend is indicative of how the USA is becoming a second-rate auto >>producer drop-by-drop. Chinese torture for the All-American ego. > [snip] > The EEStor patent is US7033406 which I believe contains a design flaw. > They state that the base material (Barium Titanate) is coated with Aluminum > Oxide and Calcium Magnesium Aluminosilicate, which coatings are intended to > increase the breakdown voltage of the composite. They then go on to calculate > the energy density based upon this increased breakdown voltage. > > However IMO, what happens in reality is that a high voltage drop will occur > across the high breakdown voltage component, and a lesser voltage drop across > the Barium Titanate. IOW with such a composite construction, one can't simply > apply the full voltage to the entire material for the purposes of calculating > the energy density of the whole. The real energy density of any given material > is actually a constant, and no "trick" of design is going to get around that. > Since they specify that the breakdown voltage of Barium Titanate itself is only > 60% of that of the other materials, and since voltage appears squared in the > formula, the real energy density of the finished product is IMO going to be > nearer 60%^2 = 36% of their claimed energy density, which would be about 3 times > the energy density of lead-acid batteries. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 05:29:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RDTCCd029899; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 05:29:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RDTAWM029880; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 05:29:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 05:29:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <063301c74217$1f7f0e90$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:29:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0RDT8fG029837 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72298 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: FW: [Vo]: Launch Loop concept for earth to orbit access Your own idea seems quite ingenious too! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 3:37 AM Subject: [Vo]: FW: [Vo]: Launch Loop concept for earth to orbit access > That sounds really ingenious :-) ! Thanks for posting it. > > I was thinking of a much smaller application to aircraft, i.e. a lot of weight of an airplane is in the wing spar. > Suppose a ring of mercury or any liquid is circulating around the wings at high speed holding tension on the wings. > They could be much lighter. In a helicopter, the centrifugal force (~10,000 G's) keeps the 8-12 inch wide airfoils extended. > It is well known that the efficiency of an aircraft is highest with the airfoils right at the stall point (small chord), > simply because the parasitic drag is minimized with the least wetted area. > > Hoyt Stearns > Scottsdale, Arizona US > http://HoytStearns.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell@mindspring.com] > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 4:50 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: Launch Loop concept for earth to orbit access > > > [This message bounced for some reason. It said Vortex-L does not exist.] > > Here is a fascinating concept! This resembles a space elevator, but the author believes it could be built with conventional materials, > rather than superstrong materials that have not yet been invented. It seems like it would be cheaper than a space elevator, and it probably > could be deployed sooner. See: > > http://www.launchloop.com/isdc2002loop.pdf > > http://www.launchloop.com/ > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 06:51:19 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0REpABd001965; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 06:51:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0REp85W001953; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 06:51:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 06:51:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <064a01c74222$919f83a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <420322.29028.qm@web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:51:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0REp7tm001925 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72299 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Paul, I suggest you try and do some simple physics derivations (analytically) without the help of PE, and post them here. Max speed reached by the ball in a pendulum released at an angle of 90° from the vertical as a function of string length, this kind of stuff. You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, true but that's only because the wires are resistive. A non-resistive current loop would not consume any energy to keep the current going. Michel P.S. The confusion over the definition of "universe" is yours (and shared by all people talking about multiple universes) I am afraid. As I said the universe is all there is, by definition: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/universe as can be easily understood from such derived words as "universal". If you dislike the word, "nature" is fine for me too. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > > I didn't understand your reply, would the > elementary particle (any particle, e.g. a > neutron, a quark) lose something while falling towards > a planet? > > > Basically you're asking what sustains such particles. > To perhaps provide you with a > different POV, here's an analogy even though all > analogies are imperfect, but they server > to make a point. The electro-magnet represents the > particle. The source of power > (current source) that sustains the electro-magnet > would represent "Space." > > We agree energy is being moved from the battery when > two electro-magnets accelerate toward > each other in magnetic attraction. We agree such > energy is moved from the battery to KE > and an increase in B-field. In the case of permanent > magnets, we both agree that energy of > "some sort" is moving to the magnets in way of KE in > addition to a net increase in > B-field. You refer to such an energy source as PE. I > am pointing out very obvious > patterns in nature that indicates such energy is not > yet another different aspect. That > such PE is not yet another separate type. We see PE > popping its head in QM and Classical > equations. IMHO PE should *not* be some magical glue > to bond and balance mathematical > theories together. > > You might ask as to what patterns in nature am I > referring to. Anything from springs to > electro-magnets. Long ago people probably looked at > the spring and could only imagine > where such energy was being stored, where it was going > to and coming from. Today the > spring is no mystery. We know about atomic bonds. :-) > > When humanity discovers an electro-gravity coil then > do you truly believe it will require > *no* energy when objects accelerate toward such a coil > while it is on? We already know > what happens when the electro-magnet coil attracts > magnetic materials. It requires energy. > > > > > > BTW, I wonder if PE shouldn't be viewed as a > property of the universe rather than of an > object. > > > That's exactly what you seem to believe. As two iron > atoms accelerate toward each other > we know it gains KE and a net increase in magnetic > field. You believe nature has a back > door of energy, figuratively speaking. A hidden > storage compartment that cannot be seen > or analyzed while in storage. Such a theory is fine > if one has nothing else, or until we > begin to perceive such aforementioned patterns in > nature, or until we analyze the > equivalent of the magnetic dipole moment, which we > call the electro-magnet. Also, such a > concept of PE is very ugly as far as simulation > programs are concerned. It's difficult > enough simulation known energy. > > > > > > BTW2, the universe is all that exists, by > definition. Parallel "universes" should be > called something else. > > > I believe you are confusing Omniverse or Multiverse > with the word "universe." You cannot > say the universe is all there is if you accept > parallel universes. It's just a definition > anyway, which I often call "all there is" as Nature, > but sometimes I prefer Omniverse. > > > > Regards, > Paul > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast > with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 07:17:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RFGv7u005690; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 07:16:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RFGtGu005678; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 07:16:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 07:16:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=PcqT54g3/ssqgItGDV/xxzSIHv7wOaXEqMclAIPb9ZnITbupypIe1VezWVJfSHgg; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220071627151639401@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:16:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940498b773708a9de70d1e0948b6f9753d4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.231 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72300 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote. > > Nice experiment Fred! Wrt the weight changes, it behaves qualitatively as expected doesn't it? > Thanks. Yes the "leakage" around the room and ion wind is pronounced too. > > Did the discharge hurt a lot? > No, just startles you. I'm practicing with it so I can see if the VDG can pump charge between an inner chamber and an outer shell of a "lifter/spacecraft" with putatively no net charge wrt earth ground, to see if it will exert a force on the reported "0.5 to 1.0 megajoule excess negative charge of the earth". Fred > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:29 PM > Subject: [Vo]: Re Van de Graaf Antics > > > >A recently acquired Acculab VIC 10KG digital scale (10,100 grams) > > with +/- 1.0 gram resolution and a Science First > > model 10-060 (200 KV) Van de Graaff generator which specifies > > a "Positively Charged Sphere", with a how it works explanation, > > makes for some interesting endeavors. > > > > Setting the VDG on the scale (sitting on a throw rug on a carpeted floor) > > shows a weight of 1509 grams. > > When the VDG is running the weight increases to 1512 grams, and when > > a ~ 2 ft square aluminum sheet is held flat about 4 inches above the globe > > the reading drops to 1490 grams until it sparks through me and goes back up > > to 1511 grams. It seems like the whole room is electrified along with > > the smell of ozone. > > > > I had planned set it on the scale with it sitting atop an aluminum foil sheet laying > > on a 3 inch thick Styrofoam plank and using a bank of D batteries > > feeding an inverter feeding the scale and VDG > > so it can "pump" electrons between the globe and the > > foil so that there wouldn't' be any net charge on the setup wrt ground, > > and watching for weight change when a grounded sheet of > > aluminum foil is held above the globe. However... suggestions??? > > > > Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 07:44:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RFiHa5024391; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 07:44:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RFiFoc024380; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 07:44:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 07:44:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=IVV+RC4Bw/Dkx3RYukX6slnwTohZK3ElFguPi+9GDDORxA1dlrkAT/i15VrncPuH; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220071627154359872@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:43:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940ae55aacc14c38b9d2c53cfd089970412350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.75.239 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72301 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Oops, make that the reported "0.5 to 1.0 MegaCoulombs excess negative charge of the earth". I gather it's split between the surface and the positive charge of the ionosphere. Fred > [Original Message] > From: Frederick Sparber > To: > Date: 1/27/2007 8:17:14 AM > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics > > Michel Jullian wrote. > > > > Nice experiment Fred! Wrt the weight changes, it behaves qualitatively as > expected doesn't it? > > > Thanks. Yes the "leakage" around the room and ion wind is pronounced too. > > > > Did the discharge hurt a lot? > > > No, just startles you. > I'm practicing with it so I can see if the VDG can pump charge between > an inner chamber and an outer shell of a "lifter/spacecraft" with > putatively no > net charge wrt earth ground, to see if it will exert a force on the reported > "0.5 to 1.0 megajoule excess negative charge of the earth". > > Fred > > > > > Michel > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Frederick Sparber" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:29 PM > > Subject: [Vo]: Re Van de Graaf Antics > > > > > > >A recently acquired Acculab VIC 10KG digital scale (10,100 grams) > > > with +/- 1.0 gram resolution and a Science First > > > model 10-060 (200 KV) Van de Graaff generator which specifies > > > a "Positively Charged Sphere", with a how it works explanation, > > > makes for some interesting endeavors. > > > > > > Setting the VDG on the scale (sitting on a throw rug on a carpeted > floor) > > > shows a weight of 1509 grams. > > > When the VDG is running the weight increases to 1512 grams, and when > > > a ~ 2 ft square aluminum sheet is held flat about 4 inches above the > globe > > > the reading drops to 1490 grams until it sparks through me and goes > back up > > > to 1511 grams. It seems like the whole room is electrified along with > > > the smell of ozone. > > > > > > I had planned set it on the scale with it sitting atop an aluminum foil > sheet laying > > > on a 3 inch thick Styrofoam plank and using a bank of D batteries > > > feeding an inverter feeding the scale and VDG > > > so it can "pump" electrons between the globe and the > > > foil so that there wouldn't' be any net charge on the setup wrt ground, > > > and watching for weight change when a grounded sheet of > > > aluminum foil is held above the globe. However... suggestions??? > > > > > > Fred > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 08:14:16 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RGE5f4001486; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:14:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RGE3Tj001456; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:14:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:14:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=1ba7qhR7aL0RIIPBDBaw1c6cI/CXehfrR0gpuSY++vIwtjiwN1+ddAxTu4y2YT1IVxoqxZ9HEmBnl2lW6XYKRlSdCZzhaSnXnH8jLsjqi+4iVyRX2jxsnrpVPZZDNLJ9l5xgpB0OZXMfjonbVV2XcgZ9GYbJJmqLCk3ndl/JaOI=; X-YMail-OSG: TclBi1gVM1lMX4M3g1ASUGj207f.0zIc9gN98bMe Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:13:58 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <673684.42342.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72302 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: > Paul, I suggest you try and do some simple physics derivations (analytically) without > the help of PE, and post them here. Max speed reached by the ball in a pendulum released > at an angle of 90° from the vertical as a function of string length, this kind of stuff. I've adapted my own style of physics and retired the pen and paper, lol. IMHO the future of physics is computer software. Computers are best at mathematics, speed, and memory. I view the Omniverse as one large computer. As far as PE, my present simulation software has no such magical PE. What I've described here at vortex is one thing, but only if you could experience what I've experienced through simulations. For example, it is well known that the electron is expressed in Ampere-Meter^2. Therefore what else are you going to use to simulate electron spin? Well, it turns out such current-loops form a magnetic dipole moment in space. Furthermore two current-loops rotate facing each other while accelerating toward each. Last, but not least, there exists opposing induced voltage on the current-loops, which consumes energy from such current-loops. The amount of energy consumed from such current-loops equals the gained KE and increase in field. There's no real way getting around it in terms of simulation. That completely eliminates the need for such PE. :-) Quite frankly I know of no other way of simulating electron spin, unless I tell the computer "Hey, ignore all reasons why, but just make this particle magically create a magnetic field in the shape of a dipole moment. > You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, true but that's only because the > wires are resistive. A non-resistive current-loop would not consume any energy to keep > the current going. That's an odd statement since it is 100.00000% incorrect. :-) No offense intended, but I need to spend less time in discussion, since recently and oddly enough I'm getting odd emails (not from any known person at vortex) asking repetitive questions that appear to merely dissipate my time. It's consuming half my day. Michel, it is called induced voltage, and I assure you such induced voltage exists. If we have two wire loops facing each other with current flowing the same rotational direction there will be a force attracting the two wire loops toward each other. As the wire loops accelerate toward each other there are more so-called magnetic lines entering/cutting each wire loop. That is where the induced voltage comes from, and such induced voltage ***opposes*** the current in the wire. Power consumed is induced voltage times the direct current. Regards, Paul Lowrance > Michel > > P.S. The confusion over the definition of "universe" is yours (and shared by all people talking about multiple universes) I am afraid. As I said the universe is all there is, by definition: > http://www.thefreedictionary.com/universe > as can be easily understood from such derived words as "universal". If you dislike the word, "nature" is fine for me too. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 7:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> I didn't understand your reply, would the >> elementary particle (any particle, e.g. a >> neutron, a quark) lose something while falling towards >> a planet? >> >> >> Basically you're asking what sustains such particles. >> To perhaps provide you with a >> different POV, here's an analogy even though all >> analogies are imperfect, but they server >> to make a point. The electro-magnet represents the >> particle. The source of power >> (current source) that sustains the electro-magnet >> would represent "Space." >> >> We agree energy is being moved from the battery when >> two electro-magnets accelerate toward >> each other in magnetic attraction. We agree such >> energy is moved from the battery to KE >> and an increase in B-field. In the case of permanent >> magnets, we both agree that energy of >> "some sort" is moving to the magnets in way of KE in >> addition to a net increase in >> B-field. You refer to such an energy source as PE. I >> am pointing out very obvious >> patterns in nature that indicates such energy is not >> yet another different aspect. That >> such PE is not yet another separate type. We see PE >> popping its head in QM and Classical >> equations. IMHO PE should *not* be some magical glue >> to bond and balance mathematical >> theories together. >> >> You might ask as to what patterns in nature am I >> referring to. Anything from springs to >> electro-magnets. Long ago people probably looked at >> the spring and could only imagine >> where such energy was being stored, where it was going >> to and coming from. Today the >> spring is no mystery. We know about atomic bonds. :-) >> >> When humanity discovers an electro-gravity coil then >> do you truly believe it will require >> *no* energy when objects accelerate toward such a coil >> while it is on? We already know >> what happens when the electro-magnet coil attracts >> magnetic materials. It requires energy. >> >> >> >> >>> BTW, I wonder if PE shouldn't be viewed as a >> property of the universe rather than of an >> object. >> >> >> That's exactly what you seem to believe. As two iron >> atoms accelerate toward each other >> we know it gains KE and a net increase in magnetic >> field. You believe nature has a back >> door of energy, figuratively speaking. A hidden >> storage compartment that cannot be seen >> or analyzed while in storage. Such a theory is fine >> if one has nothing else, or until we >> begin to perceive such aforementioned patterns in >> nature, or until we analyze the >> equivalent of the magnetic dipole moment, which we >> call the electro-magnet. Also, such a >> concept of PE is very ugly as far as simulation >> programs are concerned. It's difficult >> enough simulation known energy. >> >> >> >> >>> BTW2, the universe is all that exists, by >> definition. Parallel "universes" should be >> called something else. >> >> >> I believe you are confusing Omniverse or Multiverse >> with the word "universe." You cannot >> say the universe is all there is if you accept >> parallel universes. It's just a definition >> anyway, which I often call "all there is" as Nature, >> but sometimes I prefer Omniverse. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 08:36:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RGZk1A019679; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:35:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RGZjE3019658; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:35:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:35:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: Qb5RkocVM1mhx9BzrZ1duUAL23INEF5TmRc8yYvuqyJlXI_UdgpELK2ivvl935VF1oFPhui191as7ESQc96U8cgX4KoqdSH6o861pvK_HiNEzpau8FjA2kIT6rE.5pMuzVVqI5exn387JnQ- Message-ID: <45BB7F5E.3080104@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:35:42 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <673684.42342.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <673684.42342.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72303 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Paul wrote: > Michel Jullian wrote: > > Paul, I suggest you try and do some simple physics > derivations (analytically) without > > the help of PE, and post them here. Max speed > reached by the ball in a pendulum released > > at an angle of 90° from the vertical as a function > of string length, this kind of stuff. > > > I've adapted my own style of physics and retired the > pen and paper, lol. IMHO the future > of physics is computer software. Computers are best > at mathematics, speed, and memory. I > view the Omniverse as one large computer. As far as > PE, my present simulation software > has no such magical PE. What I've described here at > vortex is one thing, but only if you > could experience what I've experienced through > simulations. For example, it is well known > that the electron is expressed in Ampere-Meter^2. > Therefore what else are you going to > use to simulate electron spin? Well, it turns out > such current-loops form a magnetic > dipole moment in space. Furthermore two current-loops > rotate facing each other while > accelerating toward each. Last, but not least, there > exists opposing induced voltage on > the current-loops, which consumes energy from such > current-loops. The amount of energy > consumed from such current-loops equals the gained KE > and increase in field. There's no > real way getting around it in terms of simulation. > That completely eliminates the need > for such PE. :-) But that's kind of the point, isn't it? That DOESN'T WORK for electrons, because they don't slow down, the current doesn't reduce, there's no battery attached to them (that we can see), and any hypothetical "back EMF" in the electron's imagined "current loop" has no effect. If you eliminate the PE then you need to provide the energy from some other source. You can model an electron as one electric monopole and two magnetic monopoles, and that works just as well as modeling it as an electric monopole and a current loop. The current loop model just seems more familiar. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 08:44:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RGiYsa026692; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:44:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RGiWsn026666; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:44:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:44:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=rosJAuCbu6tC3v/m6ynmu2iYwqcbos8dMJoHE9z/7tw9VvTA/eKBevmdTC+NcPnd; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: "Vortex" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:44:22 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26094b24448ca676bee113389c85113e335b387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72304 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Circuit cries foul Years ago there was buzz on the news groups about Avramenko's Plug and proposed method of single wire transmission. During the period I did some experiments with the Plug and HV driving Xeons etc., yet found it to be going no where and JLN, Stefan Hartmann and Frolov got involved. JLN did a demo which is still on his site that showed a single wire system driving a Xeon light. A couple of months ago something strange showed up in work on a different system which took me back to the Plug. What has evolved is a very nice circuit that 'Cries Foul' because it can not work, but it does and does not have to be floated above ground like the JLN demo was. But the energy output side of the circuit does have to be free of any earth or circuit connection. Here are some specs so you all can get a big laugh :-) Power input 12VDC at 70mA, now this is close to real as it is determined by a scope integrating at 40MHz. The driver is a MOSFET driven by a 3.5Vpp square wave. The charge capacitor is a 220uf/200V switched into a 120V/7W lamp by a neon bulb relaxation oscillator. Works fine and is stable so long as you connect nothing to the output section (test leads etc) that is why the neon is used as a trigger. This is NOT an OU device :-(, it is an energy conversion device. Now where does the excess come from? Well thats a good question because only a certain ferrite core will allow the device to work, even if similar circuit conditions are met with different cores and coils. Yes for those that know, the frequency is critical, but not like one would think, a increase in frequency does not increase power as determined by Frolov. I placed a labeled picture at www.stifflerscientific.com/images/avtrig.jpg I have brought this to the vorts only as an example of how people could get false excitment :-) From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 08:46:21 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RGkBhf028173; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:46:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RGk8Aj028150; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:46:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:46:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "OrionWorks" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:45:56 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <673684.42342.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72305 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Paul sez: ... > > I've adapted my own style of physics and retired the > pen and paper, lol. IMHO the future of physics is > computer software. Computers are best at mathematics, > speed, and memory. I view the Omniverse as one large > computer. As far as PE, my present simulation software > has no such magical PE. What I've described here at > vortex is one thing, but only if you could experience > what I've experienced through simulations. Living and experiencing the universe within the context of one's own created computer "simulations" is no doubt a fascinating learning experience. No doubt, it has its place in the greater scheme of things. I'm guilty of having participated in this crime as well. However, it has been my experience that the physical universe, particularly the one we all must interface in, never asked me for my personal opinion on how she has chosen to run the store. As the old saying goes: Garbage in, garbage out. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 08:55:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RGti66019850; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:55:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RGtgjR019833; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:55:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:55:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <065e01c74233$f97afa20$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <673684.42342.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:55:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0RGteH1019818 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72306 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com > I've adapted my own style of physics... No problem, I was only suggesting this as a way for you to realize you can't do away with PE. Simulation software is usually based on forces and fields, so indeed it doesn't have to compute energy to solve things. Which software do you use, something of your own making? > That's an odd statement since it is 100.00000% > incorrect. :-) No offense intended A less peremptory tone would be more productive. I know about induced emf, my comment mentioned no other current loop around, in which context it is 100% correct :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > > Paul, I suggest you try and do some simple physics > derivations (analytically) without > > the help of PE, and post them here. Max speed > reached by the ball in a pendulum released > > at an angle of 90° from the vertical as a function > of string length, this kind of stuff. > > > I've adapted my own style of physics and retired the > pen and paper, lol. IMHO the future > of physics is computer software. Computers are best > at mathematics, speed, and memory. I > view the Omniverse as one large computer. As far as > PE, my present simulation software > has no such magical PE. What I've described here at > vortex is one thing, but only if you > could experience what I've experienced through > simulations. For example, it is well known > that the electron is expressed in Ampere-Meter^2. > Therefore what else are you going to > use to simulate electron spin? Well, it turns out > such current-loops form a magnetic > dipole moment in space. Furthermore two current-loops > rotate facing each other while > accelerating toward each. Last, but not least, there > exists opposing induced voltage on > the current-loops, which consumes energy from such > current-loops. The amount of energy > consumed from such current-loops equals the gained KE > and increase in field. There's no > real way getting around it in terms of simulation. > That completely eliminates the need > for such PE. :-) Quite frankly I know of no other way > of simulating electron spin, unless > I tell the computer "Hey, ignore all reasons why, but > just make this particle magically > create a magnetic field in the shape of a dipole > moment. > > > > > You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, > true but that's only because the > > wires are resistive. A non-resistive current-loop > would not consume any energy to keep > > the current going. > > > That's an odd statement since it is 100.00000% > incorrect. :-) No offense intended, but I > need to spend less time in discussion, since recently > and oddly enough I'm getting odd > emails (not from any known person at vortex) asking > repetitive questions that appear to > merely dissipate my time. It's consuming half my day. > > Michel, it is called induced voltage, and I assure you > such induced voltage exists. If we > have two wire loops facing each other with current > flowing the same rotational direction > there will be a force attracting the two wire loops > toward each other. As the wire loops > accelerate toward each other there are more so-called > magnetic lines entering/cutting each > wire loop. That is where the induced voltage comes > from, and such induced voltage > ***opposes*** the current in the wire. Power consumed > is induced voltage times the direct > current. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > > > Michel > > > > P.S. The confusion over the definition of > "universe" is yours (and shared by all people > talking about multiple universes) I am afraid. As I > said the universe is all there is, by > definition: > > http://www.thefreedictionary.com/universe > > as can be easily understood from such derived words > as "universal". If you dislike the > word, "nature" is fine for me too. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 7:55 PM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using > *standard* physics > > > > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >>> I didn't understand your reply, would the > >> elementary particle (any particle, e.g. a > >> neutron, a quark) lose something while falling > towards > >> a planet? > >> > >> > >> Basically you're asking what sustains such > particles. > >> To perhaps provide you with a > >> different POV, here's an analogy even though all > >> analogies are imperfect, but they server > >> to make a point. The electro-magnet represents > the > >> particle. The source of power > >> (current source) that sustains the electro-magnet > >> would represent "Space." > >> > >> We agree energy is being moved from the battery > when > >> two electro-magnets accelerate toward > >> each other in magnetic attraction. We agree such > >> energy is moved from the battery to KE > >> and an increase in B-field. In the case of > permanent > >> magnets, we both agree that energy of > >> "some sort" is moving to the magnets in way of KE > in > >> addition to a net increase in > >> B-field. You refer to such an energy source as > PE. I > >> am pointing out very obvious > >> patterns in nature that indicates such energy is > not > >> yet another different aspect. That > >> such PE is not yet another separate type. We see > PE > >> popping its head in QM and Classical > >> equations. IMHO PE should *not* be some magical > glue > >> to bond and balance mathematical > >> theories together. > >> > >> You might ask as to what patterns in nature am I > >> referring to. Anything from springs to > >> electro-magnets. Long ago people probably looked > at > >> the spring and could only imagine > >> where such energy was being stored, where it was > going > >> to and coming from. Today the > >> spring is no mystery. We know about atomic bonds. > :-) > >> > >> When humanity discovers an electro-gravity coil > then > >> do you truly believe it will require > >> *no* energy when objects accelerate toward such a > coil > >> while it is on? We already know > >> what happens when the electro-magnet coil attracts > >> magnetic materials. It requires energy. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> BTW, I wonder if PE shouldn't be viewed as a > >> property of the universe rather than of an > >> object. > >> > >> > >> That's exactly what you seem to believe. As two > iron > >> atoms accelerate toward each other > >> we know it gains KE and a net increase in magnetic > >> field. You believe nature has a back > >> door of energy, figuratively speaking. A hidden > >> storage compartment that cannot be seen > >> or analyzed while in storage. Such a theory is > fine > >> if one has nothing else, or until we > >> begin to perceive such aforementioned patterns in > >> nature, or until we analyze the > >> equivalent of the magnetic dipole moment, which we > >> call the electro-magnet. Also, such a > >> concept of PE is very ugly as far as simulation > >> programs are concerned. It's difficult > >> enough simulation known energy. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> BTW2, the universe is all that exists, by > >> definition. Parallel "universes" should be > >> called something else. > >> > >> > >> I believe you are confusing Omniverse or > Multiverse > >> with the word "universe." You cannot > >> say the universe is all there is if you accept > >> parallel universes. It's just a definition > >> anyway, which I often call "all there is" as > Nature, > >> but sometimes I prefer Omniverse. > >> > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss an email again! > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 08:56:17 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RGuBPh020011; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:56:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RGu9L4019997; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:56:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 08:56:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <065f01c74234$0a64a890$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-220071627154359872@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:56:08 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0RGu7Hf019977 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72307 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mmm if it has no net charge (not sure what you mean by "wrt earth ground" BTW, "no net charge" is absolute, zero Coulomb, unlike voltage which may be what you meant), why do you expect a force wrt a charged body? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 4:43 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics > > Oops, make that the reported "0.5 to 1.0 MegaCoulombs excess negative > charge of the earth". > > I gather it's split between the surface and the positive charge of the > ionosphere. > > Fred > >> [Original Message] >> From: Frederick Sparber >> To: >> Date: 1/27/2007 8:17:14 AM >> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics >> >> Michel Jullian wrote. >> > >> > Nice experiment Fred! Wrt the weight changes, it behaves qualitatively > as >> expected doesn't it? >> > >> Thanks. Yes the "leakage" around the room and ion wind is pronounced too. >> > >> > Did the discharge hurt a lot? >> > >> No, just startles you. >> I'm practicing with it so I can see if the VDG can pump charge between >> an inner chamber and an outer shell of a "lifter/spacecraft" with >> putatively no >> net charge wrt earth ground, to see if it will exert a force on the > reported >> "0.5 to 1.0 megajoule excess negative charge of the earth". >> >> Fred >> >> > >> > Michel >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Frederick Sparber" >> > To: >> > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:29 PM >> > Subject: [Vo]: Re Van de Graaf Antics >> > >> > >> > >A recently acquired Acculab VIC 10KG digital scale (10,100 grams) >> > > with +/- 1.0 gram resolution and a Science First >> > > model 10-060 (200 KV) Van de Graaff generator which specifies >> > > a "Positively Charged Sphere", with a how it works explanation, >> > > makes for some interesting endeavors. >> > > >> > > Setting the VDG on the scale (sitting on a throw rug on a carpeted >> floor) >> > > shows a weight of 1509 grams. >> > > When the VDG is running the weight increases to 1512 grams, and when >> > > a ~ 2 ft square aluminum sheet is held flat about 4 inches above the >> globe >> > > the reading drops to 1490 grams until it sparks through me and goes >> back up >> > > to 1511 grams. It seems like the whole room is electrified along with >> > > the smell of ozone. >> > > >> > > I had planned set it on the scale with it sitting atop an aluminum > foil >> sheet laying >> > > on a 3 inch thick Styrofoam plank and using a bank of D batteries >> > > feeding an inverter feeding the scale and VDG >> > > so it can "pump" electrons between the globe and the >> > > foil so that there wouldn't' be any net charge on the setup wrt > ground, >> > > and watching for weight change when a grounded sheet of >> > > aluminum foil is held above the globe. However... suggestions??? >> > > >> > > Fred >> >> > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:05:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RH5BL1010132; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:05:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RH56DB010090; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:05:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:05:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=mDLNW0s5g/+CFGOTPfxIEjXUpQVb/eb8jPBwkbhhTXDVPyOWHIHIMGZs/IM14/4sIatFQyjpdaR6ruZRf0AGbyZZhP2jpXyqtBIUWCRFk20cIIAEJQ9R5AnCzPG53kAHBXxIdI6mIxx9u5qQ2Q/ZF1uPXWdzirjdRxzknu0KmG0=; X-YMail-OSG: m6fe2i8VM1lCm6533T2lcPSkaN0j5BnEVtD.WxPYZsxaMQ7FNCBqFJuBeMb5dfmLNC2VRz6ltwQ.6jnfKGzbdTNumK5q9P9NjTep_P9o.4lKbcYKtqmhAalRV5U_SVNTKvEoZMYSn8SKUW2v37s6uwFW Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:05:00 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <375414.1761.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72308 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Paul wrote: >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> > Paul, I suggest you try and do some simple physics >> derivations (analytically) without >> > the help of PE, and post them here. Max speed >> reached by the ball in a pendulum released >> > at an angle of 90° from the vertical as a function >> of string length, this kind of stuff. >> >> >> I've adapted my own style of physics and retired the >> pen and paper, lol. IMHO the future of physics is computer software. >> Computers are best >> at mathematics, speed, and memory. I view the Omniverse as one large >> computer. As far as >> PE, my present simulation software has no such magical PE. What I've >> described here at >> vortex is one thing, but only if you could experience what I've >> experienced through >> simulations. For example, it is well known that the electron is >> expressed in Ampere-Meter^2. Therefore what else are you going to use >> to simulate electron spin? Well, it turns out >> such current-loops form a magnetic dipole moment in space. Furthermore >> two current-loops >> rotate facing each other while accelerating toward each. Last, but not >> least, there >> exists opposing induced voltage on the current-loops, which consumes >> energy from such >> current-loops. The amount of energy consumed from such current-loops >> equals the gained KE >> and increase in field. There's no real way getting around it in terms >> of simulation. That completely eliminates the need for such PE. :-) > > But that's kind of the point, isn't it? That DOESN'T WORK for > electrons, because they don't slow down, the current doesn't reduce, > there's no battery attached to them (that we can see), and any > hypothetical "back EMF" in the electron's imagined "current loop" has no > effect. I fail to see such logic. Does the current source connected to the electro-magnet slow down, lol? No it does not. We simply do ***not*** know what's inside the electron, much less how it is sustained. > If you eliminate the PE then you need to provide the energy from some > other source. ZPE, quantum foam, etc. etc.? We simply do not know, yet. > You can model an electron as one electric monopole and two magnetic > monopoles, and that works just as well as modeling it as an electric > monopole and a current loop. The current loop model just seems more > familiar. There's no know method of creating a magnetic monopole device. In fact, such a monopole is still undetected. If it exists then IMHO it is merely a higher dimensional artifact, in that we simply cannot see the magnetic closed loop, as such a closed loop would circle through a higher dimension, and hence such a magnetic monopole would be a 3-dimensional illusion. Perhaps that is why people use the current loop instead. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:07:26 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RH7CjS030168; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:07:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RH7B2Q030149; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:07:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:07:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=h2Mhy7VTmq+Z6pNRO08IqiAp1wX1gq7TE62NajVjvo93Hpm9RMcXJ7do+j4IJR37; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Circuit cries foul Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:06:57 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609fb0b9361572055e841b96a4d8b3b1c0c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72309 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com I just posted another picture of the free secondary end of the transformer. Remember the secondary has a free end and this is the one shown with the neon. www.stifflerscientific.com/images/avtrig2.jpg > -----Original Message----- > From: Stiffler Scientific [mailto:stifflerscientific@earthlink.net] > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 10:44 AM > To: Vortex > Subject: [Vo]: Circuit cries foul > > > Years ago there was buzz on the news groups about Avramenko's Plug and > proposed method of single wire transmission. During the period I did some > experiments with the Plug and HV driving Xeons etc., yet found it to be > going no where and JLN, Stefan Hartmann and Frolov got involved. JLN did a > demo which is still on his site that showed a single wire system driving a > Xeon light. > > A couple of months ago something strange showed up in work on a different > system which took me back to the Plug. What has evolved is a very nice > circuit that 'Cries Foul' because it can not work, but it does > and does not > have to be floated above ground like the JLN demo was. But the > energy output > side of the circuit does have to be free of any earth or circuit > connection. > > Here are some specs so you all can get a big laugh :-) > > Power input 12VDC at 70mA, now this is close to real as it is > determined by > a scope integrating at 40MHz. The driver is a MOSFET driven by a 3.5Vpp > square wave. The charge capacitor is a 220uf/200V switched into a 120V/7W > lamp by a neon bulb relaxation oscillator. Works fine and is > stable so long > as you connect nothing to the output section (test leads etc) that is why > the neon is used as a trigger. > > This is NOT an OU device :-(, it is an energy conversion device. Now where > does the excess come from? Well thats a good question because > only a certain > ferrite core will allow the device to work, even if similar circuit > conditions are met with different cores and coils. Yes for those > that know, > the frequency is critical, but not like one would think, a increase in > frequency does not increase power as determined by Frolov. > > I placed a labeled picture at www.stifflerscientific.com/images/avtrig.jpg > > I have brought this to the vorts only as an example of how people > could get > false excitment :-) > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:15:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RHFQNC020835; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:15:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RHFOVp020815; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:15:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:15:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=RYxAv6Dj+iYEM9edtEuFZxLTHBYNxW+gMluey4c/J25/+eJ98KPMOluy/mWTaRoc; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007162717151573@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:15:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94093effd62395c5a423b0beb1aea333a99350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.159.207 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72310 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote. > > To: > Date: 1/27/2007 9:56:21 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics > > Mmm if it has no net charge (not sure what you mean by "wrt earth ground" BTW, "no net charge" is absolute, zero Coulomb, unlike voltage which may be what you meant), why do you expect a force wrt a charged body? > What I mean by no net charge, is not pulling any charge from earth ground which results in an attractive image charge, but using the VDG to charge an outer sphere or cylinder, wrt the inner one, thus putting an induced surface charge on the outer conductor exterior, or possibly more using a semiconductor or dielectric material outer "shell". This should interact with the excess charge of the earth the same as external; charges coming from the sun or the cosmos. Also there should be an "ion collecting" effect on the outer shell, about like the corrosion of the positive terminal of a car battery. If perchance you make it to outer space without setting off a Jovian Thunderbolt, you can use the "vacuumed" ions for added propulsion. :-) Fred > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: "vortex-l" > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 4:43 PM > Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics > > > > > > Oops, make that the reported "0.5 to 1.0 MegaCoulombs excess negative > > charge of the earth". > > > > I gather it's split between the surface and the positive charge of the > > ionosphere. > > > > Fred > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Frederick Sparber > >> To: > >> Date: 1/27/2007 8:17:14 AM > >> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics > >> > >> Michel Jullian wrote. > >> > > >> > Nice experiment Fred! Wrt the weight changes, it behaves qualitatively > > as > >> expected doesn't it? > >> > > >> Thanks. Yes the "leakage" around the room and ion wind is pronounced too. > >> > > >> > Did the discharge hurt a lot? > >> > > >> No, just startles you. > >> I'm practicing with it so I can see if the VDG can pump charge between > >> an inner chamber and an outer shell of a "lifter/spacecraft" with > >> putatively no > >> net charge wrt earth ground, to see if it will exert a force on the > > reported > >> "0.5 to 1.0 megajoule excess negative charge of the earth". > >> > >> Fred > >> > >> > > >> > Michel > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Frederick Sparber" > >> > To: > >> > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:29 PM > >> > Subject: [Vo]: Re Van de Graaf Antics > >> > > >> > > >> > >A recently acquired Acculab VIC 10KG digital scale (10,100 grams) > >> > > with +/- 1.0 gram resolution and a Science First > >> > > model 10-060 (200 KV) Van de Graaff generator which specifies > >> > > a "Positively Charged Sphere", with a how it works explanation, > >> > > makes for some interesting endeavors. > >> > > > >> > > Setting the VDG on the scale (sitting on a throw rug on a carpeted > >> floor) > >> > > shows a weight of 1509 grams. > >> > > When the VDG is running the weight increases to 1512 grams, and when > >> > > a ~ 2 ft square aluminum sheet is held flat about 4 inches above the > >> globe > >> > > the reading drops to 1490 grams until it sparks through me and goes > >> back up > >> > > to 1511 grams. It seems like the whole room is electrified along with > >> > > the smell of ozone. > >> > > > >> > > I had planned set it on the scale with it sitting atop an aluminum > > foil > >> sheet laying > >> > > on a 3 inch thick Styrofoam plank and using a bank of D batteries > >> > > feeding an inverter feeding the scale and VDG > >> > > so it can "pump" electrons between the globe and the > >> > > foil so that there wouldn't' be any net charge on the setup wrt > > ground, > >> > > and watching for weight change when a grounded sheet of > >> > > aluminum foil is held above the globe. However... suggestions??? > >> > > > >> > > Fred > >> > >> > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:22:17 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RHM8ds027015; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:22:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RHM5uc026987; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:22:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:22:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=Sf2UuWGhSUN7qA+Y3r6QGI9/q5JC89qZa2G0FIyKsT+XcZwnvsnhZypwSeBhipC74BdKbucNHb9TYzIm0BeBxq6NAth2Vry8wO33qAky+y3DhsHQLvBfePCOsm4R5U3ogdRFGDzXUd4KgaTE4E+xe8Sxv/nOu3dvTNascld1BD8=; X-YMail-OSG: PSKQxjUVM1m8LrMpOr3dRrcZMl06PHXgyZ1WgMVn.BuOqE_qcHuYolCyrmiOZ14TenBLS6HmKANreB96PTBVk9HB_IYJYTYEeMnor3AJ2x.ofG1r1_Q0.tDDglqErklnlDxCDoThwJEGDax6TuCsr1.wFzGgY4NOCy3LNdhgzjJgYuW7yvlEW4nRIwFXpJM5GB74FQ-- Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:22:03 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <606013.75444.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <7JSMiC.A.nlG.9o4uFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72311 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com OrionWorks wrote: > Paul sez: > > ... > >> I've adapted my own style of physics and retired the >> pen and paper, lol. IMHO the future of physics is >> computer software. Computers are best at mathematics, >> speed, and memory. I view the Omniverse as one large >> computer. As far as PE, my present simulation software >> has no such magical PE. What I've described here at >> vortex is one thing, but only if you could experience >> what I've experienced through simulations. > > Living and experiencing the universe within the context of one's own created > computer "simulations" is no doubt a fascinating learning experience. No > doubt, it has its place in the greater scheme of things. I'm guilty of > having participated in this crime as well. However, it has been my > experience that the physical universe, particularly the one we all must > interface in, never asked me for my personal opinion on how she has chosen > to run the store. > > As the old saying goes: Garbage in, garbage out. No offense intended, but that's Fuzzy Logic. First, it is not about getting nature to ask you about your personal opinion, lol. It is about asking nature how she does it. Second, I would take the computer over the pen and paper any time. You can have your pen and paper. Mathematics is the language of computers. Computers can compute any mathematics far faster, more precise, and more accurate than any pen and paper. Computers can juggle billions of such equations to formulate simulates. Third, your opening first two sentences were the only correct ones. Some people are followers. Some are a little head of time. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:31:33 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RHVNmX030735; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:31:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RHVMk9030716; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:31:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:31:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:31:15 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <606013.75444.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72312 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Enjoy your simulations! PS: I never said I would take "pen and paper" over a computer. Do not infer what was never said. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul [mailto:softwarelabus@yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 11:22 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > > OrionWorks wrote: > > Paul sez: > > > > ... > > > >> I've adapted my own style of physics and retired > the > >> pen and paper, lol. IMHO the future of physics is > >> computer software. Computers are best at > mathematics, > >> speed, and memory. I view the Omniverse as one > large > >> computer. As far as PE, my present simulation > software > >> has no such magical PE. What I've described here > at > >> vortex is one thing, but only if you could > experience > >> what I've experienced through simulations. > > > > Living and experiencing the universe within the > context of one's own created > > computer "simulations" is no doubt a fascinating > learning experience. No > > doubt, it has its place in the greater scheme of > things. I'm guilty of > > having participated in this crime as well. However, > it has been my > > experience that the physical universe, particularly > the one we all must > > interface in, never asked me for my personal > opinion on how she has chosen > > to run the store. > > > > As the old saying goes: Garbage in, garbage out. > > > No offense intended, but that's Fuzzy Logic. > > First, it is not about getting nature to ask you about > your personal opinion, lol. It is > about asking nature how she does it. > > Second, I would take the computer over the pen and > paper any time. You can have your pen > and paper. Mathematics is the language of computers. > Computers can compute any > mathematics far faster, more precise, and more > accurate than any pen and paper. Computers > can juggle billions of such equations to formulate > simulates. > > Third, your opening first two sentences were the only > correct ones. Some people are > followers. Some are a little head of time. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > __________________ > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:38:49 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RHcdZT004760; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:38:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RHccA5004743; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:38:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:38:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 12:37:06 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72313 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com OrionWorks wrote: > Paul sez: > > ... > >> >> I've adapted my own style of physics and retired the >> pen and paper, lol. IMHO the future of physics is >> computer software. Computers are best at mathematics, >> speed, and memory. I view the Omniverse as one large >> computer. As far as PE, my present simulation software >> has no such magical PE. What I've described here at >> vortex is one thing, but only if you could experience >> what I've experienced through simulations. > > Living and experiencing the universe within the context of one's own created > computer "simulations" is no doubt a fascinating learning experience. No > doubt, it has its place in the greater scheme of things. I'm guilty of > having participated in this crime as well. However, it has been my > experience that the physical universe, particularly the one we all must > interface in, never asked me for my personal opinion on how she has chosen > to run the store. > > As the old saying goes: Garbage in, garbage out. One man's "garbage" is another man's "gold". However, feeding "gold" to a computer seems pointless to me... unless _we_ are the computer. ;-) Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:40:41 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RHeX8u016740; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:40:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RHeWwG016732; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:40:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:40:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=XbCEFh9XBkEPyk/ZME+obrAbgta1JlpHtuf5jurdA0IKRwoYRD4GqlRLlQGF+515F3o117yjwHpgjtABAP+jJKYNMRP4rB2XmyiDzIxFRTaKVYfoq0JmfNifvSSijn/fM1VuSOGz/EKaLms+ixJ5HL2EeqRSaEqemPIxBa8K1KI=; X-YMail-OSG: LG5EsNwVM1m7nPFR6D.nTurWGLoEWrOpNviGzXWJSK1fW0tAh286ijTagTgiBmYI64O5fGUtjezellON1kDfN9XdVTnrg6zAqDOJbgCCA.dM5Th5MZPqsu03E2IpK4qBeJhzKH25nxkdSFAUDnxma5XPOf4lJtBKIY5L_IhBUTDAFrpRZicXudcOXgqdeNPmav9mrQ-- Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:40:27 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <142763.14559.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72314 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: >> I've adapted my own style of physics... > > No problem, I was only suggesting this as a way for you to realize you can't do away > with PE. Simulation software is usually based on forces and fields, so indeed it doesn't > have to compute energy to solve things. Which software do you use, something of your > own making? To realize? It's the only way of doing it without using magic. For now I see no reason to use a magnetic monopole. I'll just have to use what already works, the current loop. :-) >> That's an odd statement since it is 100.00000% >> incorrect. :-) No offense intended > > A less peremptory tone would be more productive. I am blunt, and make no apologies for it. When in error I ***gladly*** admit such error. Saving face IMHO it pitiful. > I know about induced emf, my comment > mentioned no other current loop around, in which context it is 100% correct :) I am sorry, but your statement was clear and incorrect. Your quote, --- "You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, true but that's only because the wires are resistive. A non-resistive current loop would not consume any energy to keep the current going." --- You said, "electromagnets" Notice the "s," which means plural. You know what? It does not even matter if you meant one electro-magnet because your statement is still incorrect. Electro-magnets have induction, so you can't even energize the thing without consuming such energy. Of course there is wire resistance, but there is also ***reactance***. Right off the bat your statement is incorrect. Second, we were clearly discussing two electro-magnets accelerating toward each other. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:48:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RHmMIY009374; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:48:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RHmKJI009349; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:48:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:48:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=KFEXLWmDr9uXp2+LQipP7Nem7yr55FovYPgE9whSdPL4JK7HfZqMG5W5yK1J3VGIMC88zChj29xfgrvjgKi2jkMBPnCNeht9KNsusvnxSxo8dwpDFLNwtPXz0lSbKG34/A984ytjqlAi0TFzt+4Y5bemVyWAkWdJjfU6EHCk224=; X-YMail-OSG: cuNYqyMVM1kH7QnXYNlI6PNi4OnMzqjLQIC5OiQ7loTYOOWFrbHPax9sSJkyyXHtl3v44AIjL1U.bMj1QtMLEpfqfJU.IXv3SW0ycEu4Y00Te2LL9_F.DaOqgA9GvSJ6fDHVfhzrFCFMPaBf.QBfI3Sp Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:48:14 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <670636.64277.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <3kXu0B.A.ASC.jB5uFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72316 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > Enjoy your simulations! Thank you! > PS: I never said I would take "pen and paper" over a computer. Do not infer > what was never said. One can only go by the words of another. May I ask what you meant by the uppercased words in, "Living and experiencing the universe within the context of one's own created computer 'simulations' is no doubt a fascinating learning experience. No doubt, it has its place in the greater scheme of things. I'M GUILTY OF HAVING PARTICIPATED IN THIS ***CRIME*** AS WELL." Regards, Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 09:50:13 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RHo6Hn010580; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:50:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RHksId008563; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:46:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:46:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=oowZEWuC0N9D4QMz4aKk/m38L7VcEzPWBrVXhm8JufQgujIwX8eVua5G+aUp6FBL6E7wFPz+kFSrCvXdk6pQwC9Or/8U9UpM2Z/SvLbNozlENYp9jgs3q1+wHsb+/yGQJs6Mz5TtFBe0y4Vxaj8RtFGY94aANFkAq+8UmvmRw8o= ; Message-ID: <20070127174652.33672.qmail@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:46:52 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0RHkpQg008496 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72315 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul ----- Original Message ---- From: Stiffler Scientific > This is NOT an OU device :-(, it is an energy conversion device. Now where does the excess come from? Well thats a good question because only a certain ferrite core will allow the device to work, That "certain ferrite core" wouldn't happen to be a barium ferrite core. would it? Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 10:11:00 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RIAl79026793; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:10:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RIAjaV026769; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:10:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:10:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." To: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:10:40 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72317 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Magnetic viscosity questions I first heard about magnetic viscosity (V[s])a few weeks ago. As I understand it, there's a time delay in ferromagnetic materials between an applied H field and the corresponding B field (and in reverse also -- removing the H field). If I spin a magnet over a ferromagnetic disc (assume non-conductive), I would think that without magnetic viscosity, it would just be attracted to the magnet as if it weren't spinning. With viscosity, I'd expect an angular difference between the magnet's flux lines and the induced flux in the disc. As the speed increases, it seems the phase angle would exceed 90 degrees and the disc would be repelled. Has that been observed? What materials have the highest V[s]? Thanks, Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 10:19:10 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RIJ3wm031512; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:19:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RIJ0WF031486; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:19:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:19:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:17:26 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul In-reply-to: <20070127174652.33672.qmail@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <4Y7eBB.A.1rH.Te5uFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72318 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Jones Beene wrote: > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Stiffler Scientific > > >> This is NOT an OU device :-(, it is an energy conversion device. Now where > does the excess come from? Well thats a good question because only a certain > ferrite core will allow the device to work, > > > That "certain ferrite core" wouldn't happen to be a barium ferrite core. would > it? > > Jones > I am not an electrical engineer, but if this _is not_ an OU device and the core is suppose to be the energy source, wouldn't the light intensity change with time as the core is depleted of energy? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 10:31:58 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RIVjBJ012412; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:31:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RIViRf012399; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:31:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:31:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:30:11 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Circuit cries foul In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72319 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com How is the experiment on the magnetic effect on the temperature of water coming along? Harry Stiffler Scientific wrote: > I just posted another picture of the free secondary end of the transformer. > Remember the secondary has a free end and this is the one shown with the > neon. > > www.stifflerscientific.com/images/avtrig2.jpg > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 10:35:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RIZRRA009047; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:35:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RIZPk9009029; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:35:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:35:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 12:35:11 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72320 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Harry sez: ... > > One man's "garbage" is another man's "gold". > However, feeding "gold" to a computer seems pointless > to me... unless _we_ are the computer. ;-) > > Harry > Yes, indeedie! Couldn't have articulated any better than that! Which one will it be today, the red or blue pill. Regards, --- Steven Vincent Johnson svj@OrionWorks.com, orionworks@charter.net www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 10:40:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RIeH0R011638; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:40:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RIeG18011600; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:40:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:40:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 12:39:55 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <670636.64277.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72321 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Paul, ... > > One can only go by the words of another. May I ask > what you meant by the uppercased words > in, "Living and experiencing the universe within the > context of one's own created computer > 'simulations' is no doubt a fascinating learning > experience. No doubt, it has its place in > the greater scheme of things. I'M GUILTY OF HAVING > PARTICIPATED IN THIS ***CRIME*** AS WELL." > I plead the 5th, on the grounds that to testify might incriminate me. Regards, --- Steven Vincent Johnson svj@OrionWorks.com, orionworks@charter.net www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 10:44:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RIigdB013695; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:44:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RIifbW013685; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:44:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:44:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Polt55TJ+fNGjJCEmPz8hO5m7exn30KJ4j6W21wkSayJ3Edx6NpQ908ohk7+k6tboJJH/OWyWjLWmkBgI4LzyQuqLXV4p0nhzFTcrJJ/HC7iYK/vtSun8uwh3c+T5X6lzDH1QA8/jluBWzbtTkOtTBRFgMWGWHODcFNWDMA3xow= ; Message-ID: <20070127184438.87900.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:44:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0RIidp8013658 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72322 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul ----- Original Message ---- From: Harry Veeder >> This is NOT an OU device :-( it is an energy conversion device. Now where does the excess come from? Well that's a good question because only a certain ferrite core will allow the device to work... > That "certain ferrite core" wouldn't happen to be a barium ferrite core, would it? HV: I am not an electrical engineer, but if this _is not_ an OU device and the core is suppose to be the energy source, wouldn't the light intensity change with time as the core is depleted of energy? Perhaps so, but there could be a number of alternative things going-on here. Nice experiment BTW. Hopefully Ron will provide us with a little more detail, esp. since there are no shortages of opinionated armchair-fizzix experts and assorted free-energy-gurus who are available here at his beck-and-call on most weekends. Among the possibilities (in what may seem to be a reverse order of probability) 1) Very efficient antenna for collecting AC from the grid (or local RF broadcast). Is there an airport close by? 2) A real ZPE coherence device... the fading hope of many result-deprived readers. 3) The world's smallest nuclear reactor. OK. You may have thought the last entry above was blatantly tongue-in-cheek, added to cast this potential thread into the deep realms of SciFi imagineering. However, if the active core is barium ferrite, then I am prepared to walk the proverbial plank of outrageous hypothesis -- and present what I consider to be a justifiable case for #3 above. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 11:11:42 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RJBXrZ026295; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:11:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RJBWDY026281; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:11:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:11:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=WTT3+5pKTicYq7NhcLw3bZ1doqCDexJu3gkgWx88BV0fhqS+TeoveEHeVc2AIb0y; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-reply-to:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:11:23 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26099f6b2542a8fbf5d0a3f33b96ca4910b0a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72323 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Point well taken, but it is not from the core in the same sense that one would consider when using a PM and the field is decreased over time. I did not mention, although important is that the relaxation oscillator is switching the bulb around 70Hz. The voltage on the storage capacitor drops during discharge and recharges during the off switch period. I have measured steady state power to obtain just what the circuit is capable of and it is very interesting. Not wanting to get involved in the old OU thing, let me state I firmly believe in energy conservation, yet I also believe in conversion between forms, wherein a gain seems to be taking place, although conservation still rules. > -----Original Message----- > From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca] > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 12:17 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul > > > Jones Beene wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Stiffler Scientific > > > > > >> This is NOT an OU device :-(, it is an energy conversion > device. Now where > > does the excess come from? Well thats a good question because > only a certain > > ferrite core will allow the device to work, > > > > > > That "certain ferrite core" wouldn't happen to be a barium > ferrite core. would > > it? > > > > Jones > > > > I am not an electrical engineer, but if this _is not_ an OU device and the > core is suppose to be the energy source, wouldn't the light intensity > change with time as the core is depleted of energy? > > Harry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 11:13:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RJDCwW026860; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:13:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RJDBC4026843; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:13:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:13:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=HGdgtY1ZGpnEYXdywKobH+vZTVAdlOmA3lUFfN3ZydXt8MH+EPVQsYokgL5lM04E; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-reply-to:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:13:02 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <20070127174652.33672.qmail@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26099f6b2542a8fbf5d0fc90cdf152dce238350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72324 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Oh, interesting thought. You know there is a frequency that mother nature seems to be in love with in many ways. A google search will show some interesting results. Of course I'm talking about 1.6MHz > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 11:47 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Stiffler Scientific > > > > This is NOT an OU device :-(, it is an energy conversion > device. Now where > does the excess come from? Well thats a good question because > only a certain > ferrite core will allow the device to work, > > > That "certain ferrite core" wouldn't happen to be a barium > ferrite core. would it? > > Jones > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 11:16:16 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RJG8ux028172; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:16:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RJG7U3028155; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:16:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:16:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gIT44yAJa2Cx42jKv5TZDZktDY0C0QAeFK19zSEPQRqrzAQCVwKLfqI1KMIXdm7m; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-reply-to:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Circuit cries foul Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:15:59 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26099f6b2542a8fbf5d0575818d2646b4dc3666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72325 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Very well, the info has been pulled from our site and only through communication with know individuals (you know, only the good guys) cam I explain further at this time. > -----Original Message----- > From: Harry Veeder [mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca] > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 12:30 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Circuit cries foul > > > > How is the experiment on the magnetic effect on the temperature of water > coming along? > > Harry > > Stiffler Scientific wrote: > > > I just posted another picture of the free secondary end of the > transformer. > > Remember the secondary has a free end and this is the one shown with the > > neon. > > > > www.stifflerscientific.com/images/avtrig2.jpg > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 11:28:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RJS1Nw003660; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:28:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RJRxrP003624; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:27:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:27:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=M3d/scrS5kRcZkJzSzUGxv5Jo9EiANVdTsG8J5j6E6MhYINy5VBmedDaxpR8E2Iz; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-reply-to:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:27:47 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <20070127184438.87900.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609e8f5ed026b950b8f67b5309054bec73d548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72326 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Let me tease a bit further. But be sure this is _NOT_ a faked circuit in any way, albeit cranky sometimes, but real. If you have worked with tuned circuits (which this is not) as you approach resonance from the low side and pass the peak moving down on the high side. (Applying a sweep freq to a tuned circuit) You will see (unless the Q is very high) a gradual up swing followed by a down swing and a peak in the middle or resonance point. No when working with a phase looked loop circuit for example in a 2way radio you used to see (older chips) a type of snap into lock on when the comparator and local oscillator got within a couple of hundred hertz. Now with this circuit (my example) as you approach a specific frequency there is a shift internal of the core and a very solid and quick lock to the excitation. You may have to pull the input 1khz before it will break free. The local environment has a very strong field around the circuit that is very interesting and (spooky) want of a more descriptive word. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 12:45 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Harry Veeder > > >> This is NOT an OU device :-( it is an energy conversion > device. Now where does the excess come from? Well that's a good > question because only a certain ferrite core will allow the > device to work... > > > That "certain ferrite core" wouldn't happen to be a barium > ferrite core, would it? > > > HV: I am not an electrical engineer, but if this _is not_ an OU > device and the core is suppose to be the energy source, wouldn't > the light intensity change with time as the core is depleted of energy? > > > > Perhaps so, but there could be a number of alternative things > going-on here. Nice experiment BTW. > > Hopefully Ron will provide us with a little more detail, esp. > since there are no shortages of opinionated armchair-fizzix > experts and assorted free-energy-gurus who are available here at > his beck-and-call on most weekends. > > Among the possibilities (in what may seem to be a reverse order > of probability) > > 1) Very efficient antenna for collecting AC from the grid (or > local RF broadcast). Is there an airport close by? > 2) A real ZPE coherence device... the fading hope of many > result-deprived readers. > 3) The world's smallest nuclear reactor. > > OK. You may have thought the last entry above was blatantly > tongue-in-cheek, added to cast this potential thread into the > deep realms of SciFi imagineering. > > However, if the active core is barium ferrite, then I am prepared > to walk the proverbial plank of outrageous hypothesis -- and > present what I consider to be a justifiable case for #3 above. > > Jones > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 11:46:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RJkTZE003493; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:46:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RJkR3T003474; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:46:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:46:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:44:19 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-reply-to: <902748.97505.qm@web62411.mail.re1.yahoo.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72327 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Paul wrote: > For example, many centuries ago people did not > understand where the energy contained in > compressed air came from. They could have easily > attributed it to a separate hidden energy > storage compartment created and handled by nature, > called PE. We now know that's a silly > idea because we understand exactly where the energy is > stored in compressed air. Present > physics just calls it PE. There is no PE. > What if you create two iron atoms, each 1 micron > apart. How much PE is there. How much PE > between two iron atoms created at the ends of our > universe. How much PE between two iron > atoms created in different universes. Nature does not > need to know such silly things, > because energy always exists, there's no hidden > undetectable backdoor of energy. Energy is > simply moved from one source to another. This is what it sounds like to me. We have, over the last few centuries been able to expand our energy supply beyond that afforded by our own manual labour by the outsourcing the job to nature. > ... I think if you go back and read my posts you'll > get the gist of the theory. > >> However, as I tried to explain, the concept of > _power_ >> is still relevant. > > Yes, but we don't need to mention both power and > energy, as energy incorporates power over > time. Energy is an economic construct. It is not really "out there". Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 14:35:44 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RMZeSt009807; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:35:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RMZcqA009796; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:35:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:35:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:35:35 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <45B4E6A7.4090408@pacbell.net> <700dr2tibm899oe14hjujcgs30j4ds28nh@4ax.com> <062301c74214$b8082870$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <062301c74214$b8082870$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 27 Jan 2007 22:35:34 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0RMZavE009774 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72328 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:11:55 +0100: Hi, [snip] >Unless the coatings diminish the material's permeability to some atmospheric gases lowering it's breakdown voltage? > >Michel I would think that insulation from the atmosphere would be more cheaply and easily obtained with a plastic sealant. BTW there is no real reason to operate at such high voltages. By making the dielectric material in the capacitor thinner, the capacitance per unit area is increased, and also the total number of plates in a given volume can be increased. Both of these together compensate for the drop in voltage, so in fact any desired operating voltage can be accommodated. It turns out that the maximum *energy density* of the device (J/m^3) is purely a function of the material used as dielectric in the capacitor, and is proportional to the product of the absolute dielectric constant of the material and the square of breakdown voltage strength of the material (V/m)^2. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:50 PM >Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery > > [snip] >> The EEStor patent is US7033406 which I believe contains a design flaw. >> They state that the base material (Barium Titanate) is coated with Aluminum >> Oxide and Calcium Magnesium Aluminosilicate, which coatings are intended to >> increase the breakdown voltage of the composite. They then go on to calculate >> the energy density based upon this increased breakdown voltage. >> >> However IMO, what happens in reality is that a high voltage drop will occur >> across the high breakdown voltage component, and a lesser voltage drop across >> the Barium Titanate. IOW with such a composite construction, one can't simply >> apply the full voltage to the entire material for the purposes of calculating >> the energy density of the whole. The real energy density of any given material >> is actually a constant, and no "trick" of design is going to get around that. >> Since they specify that the breakdown voltage of Barium Titanate itself is only >> 60% of that of the other materials, and since voltage appears squared in the >> formula, the real energy density of the finished product is IMO going to be >> nearer 60%^2 = 36% of their claimed energy density, which would be about 3 times >> the energy density of lead-acid batteries. >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 14:46:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RMkXCR003089; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:46:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RMkVDn003074; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:46:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:46:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:46:29 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20070127184438.87900.qmail@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at omta05ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 27 Jan 2007 22:46:29 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0RMkTNQ003053 Resent-Message-ID: <1DK7CD.A.-v.HZ9uFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72329 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Stiffler Scientific's message of Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:27:47 -0600: Hi, [snip] >hundred hertz. Now with this circuit (my example) as you approach a specific >frequency there is a shift internal of the core and a very solid and quick >lock to the excitation. You may have to pull the input 1khz before it will >break free. The local environment has a very strong field around the circuit >that is very interesting and (spooky) want of a more descriptive word. [snip] I'm going to go out on a limb here, and guess that it works best when the oscillation frequency is 60 Hz. ;) (50 Hz if you happen to live in Europe or Australia). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 14:53:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RMrnvj006221; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:53:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RMrmi5006212; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:53:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:53:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:53:46 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20070127174652.33672.qmail@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sat, 27 Jan 2007 22:53:46 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0RMrksx006194 Resent-Message-ID: <2YmGo.A.AhB.8f9uFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72330 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Stiffler Scientific's message of Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:13:02 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Oh, interesting thought. You know there is a frequency that mother nature >seems to be in love with in many ways. A google search will show some >interesting results. Of course I'm talking about 1.6MHz [snip] This is about equal to the cyclotron frequency of the electron where the Earth's magnetic field is at its strongest. In short radiation from electrons in the Van Allen belt, near the poles. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 15:24:48 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RNOfBC015018; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:24:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RNOdBn015005; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:24:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:24:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=MvEdVtmkiFnD7xfcrjjCo9i0+DHqXTWvogeGhNJTA/Nwltoy2Scv9oNKbCyqyob8DrqhC6wgaI5VoEPk4l2gKdW2zXMDcxAJNzM5yxlzDbaV1e/jZ1kh2Fn+NHTGWwkD4JWuuJVkzhkvigKFqaB84OxwvoFkgrcBbn6aOZ5Lurw= ; Message-ID: <20070127232439.45707.qmail@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:24:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0RNOcHe014989 Resent-Message-ID: <77JmoB.A.ZqD.389uFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72331 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Robin van Spaandonk < >Oh, interesting thought. You know there is a frequency that mother nature >seems to be in love with in many ways. A google search will show some >interesting results. Of course I'm talking about 1.6MHz This is about equal to the cyclotron frequency of the electron where the Earth's magnetic field is at its strongest. In short radiation from electrons in the Van Allen belt, near the poles. Because it is also a common frequency found in piezo-ceramics, esp containing barium, it is the most common of the high ultrasonic frequency spectrum seen in those transducers. Also see Steve Krivit's report of the Stringham device at the LA APS a few years ago. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 15:40:37 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RNeW1F025570; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:40:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RNeUCR025557; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:40:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:40:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=NjNAw6jVh57Ha01rK5CcCcvntvtWU75aveany032V4540SXK1AIzd+38kJoO1CgB; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:40:21 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c260982ea63d1a0495a67c3991939349d1d75548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <-b1gsB.A.MPG.uL-uFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72332 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sorry, NO! The frequency of the driver is 1.6Mhz and the discharge switch rate is 70Hz, its not that easy to get 7W from <1. > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 4:46 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul > > > In reply to Stiffler Scientific's message of Sat, 27 Jan 2007 > 13:27:47 -0600: > Hi, > [snip] > >hundred hertz. Now with this circuit (my example) as you > approach a specific > >frequency there is a shift internal of the core and a very solid > and quick > >lock to the excitation. You may have to pull the input 1khz > before it will > >break free. The local environment has a very strong field around > the circuit > >that is very interesting and (spooky) want of a more descriptive word. > [snip] > I'm going to go out on a limb here, and guess that it works best when the > oscillation frequency is 60 Hz. ;) (50 Hz if you happen to live > in Europe or > Australia). > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 15:44:02 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RNhvuj021091; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:43:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RNhpHR021056; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:43:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:43:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=S/7Yj1hu+gKkABltS/yQhKYDlKcrMFc8i+Qr+3952XedsJi+omRlybh0NEigFVph; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:43:42 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c260982ea63d1a0495a6740b708f3ae159d44350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <7i8ZdD.A.5IF.2O-uFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72333 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com God I should read all replies before I answer any. Your are getting close as many others have done and just did not click with them. I can not explain just how ingrained 1.6Mhz is with our environment and energy interchanges. > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 4:54 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul > > > In reply to Stiffler Scientific's message of Sat, 27 Jan 2007 > 13:13:02 -0600: > Hi, > [snip] > >Oh, interesting thought. You know there is a frequency that mother nature > >seems to be in love with in many ways. A google search will show some > >interesting results. Of course I'm talking about 1.6MHz > [snip] > This is about equal to the cyclotron frequency of the electron > where the Earth's > magnetic field is at its strongest. > In short radiation from electrons in the Van Allen belt, near the poles. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 15:50:55 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0RNonLW027871; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:50:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0RNomYf027858; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:50:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:50:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=J4P7nmzg2HP7F0i15uKbEzCLYoqFKg3A/T5ZN2wqnVVEAwLbf+xxfVc8P2PirMq1; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:50:40 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20070127232439.45707.qmail@web82708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c260982ea63d1a0495a67d5810a19be5fd745a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72334 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Yes! Yes!. Energy increase of 10k over 20khz and 40khz in transducer effectiveness in sonoluminesce. Used now in vaporizers, is spectrophotometer, etc,. etc., but used for specialized application and to my knowledge no one has yet seen how it can be used to crack a very sought after secret. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 5:25 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Robin van Spaandonk < > > >Oh, interesting thought. You know there is a frequency that mother nature > >seems to be in love with in many ways. A google search will show some > >interesting results. Of course I'm talking about 1.6MHz > > This is about equal to the cyclotron frequency of the electron > where the Earth's > magnetic field is at its strongest. In short radiation from > electrons in the Van Allen belt, near the poles. > > Because it is also a common frequency found in piezo-ceramics, > esp containing barium, it is the most common of the high > ultrasonic frequency spectrum seen in those transducers. Also see > Steve Krivit's report of the Stringham device at the LA APS a > few years ago. > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 16:31:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S0V2wi005079; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 16:31:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S0V00B005061; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 16:31:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 16:31:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <06a601c74273$937ea010$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <142763.14559.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 01:30:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0S0UwfG005042 Resent-Message-ID: <2J56ZB.A.BPB.D7-uFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72335 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com You insist, very aggressively, that my statement was incorrect even if I meant one electro-magnet. Well the case is simple enough, let's work it out. If it's non-resistive it's purely inductive, so v=-L*di/dt right? So if current i is constant, voltage v is zero, therefore consumed power i*v is zero, and so is consumed energy i*v*t. So as I said, "a non-resistive current loop would not consume any energy to keep the current going". Now this may come as an even bigger surprise to you, but a pure inductance is in fact unable to consume _any energy at all_, even if current is not constant. It can store energy (1/2*L*i^2), it can transfer energy when mutual inductance is at play, but it just can't consume any. Resistance can consume energy, reactance can't, any textbook will tell you that. No offense as you like to say, but isn't this an excellent occasion to show us how gladly you admit being in error Paul? ;-) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 6:40 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics ... > I am blunt, and make no apologies for it. When in > error I ***gladly*** admit such error. > Saving face IMHO it pitiful. > > I know about induced emf, my comment > > mentioned no other current loop around, in which > context it is 100% correct :) > I am sorry, but your statement was clear and > incorrect. Your quote, > --- > "You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, > true but that's only because the wires > are resistive. A non-resistive current loop would not > consume any energy to keep the > current going." > --- > You said, "electromagnets" Notice the "s," which > means plural. You know what? It does > not even matter if you meant one electro-magnet > because your statement is still incorrect. > Electro-magnets have induction, so you can't even > energize the thing without consuming > such energy. Of course there is wire resistance, but > there is also ***reactance***. > Right off the bat your statement is incorrect. > Second, we were clearly discussing two > electro-magnets accelerating toward each other. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 16:46:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S0kM3A009870; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 16:46:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S0kL0l009860; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 16:46:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 16:46:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=4OKuZLI5NWdM7ynIz60FUV3w0Wa8nGZEtf7SszpdCa+4G1jtRoWf6EkmfhLqmWld6me8Ygy3CmdhvPrPdccW6SYkG6PXl6o8gYqmceM3MS2S1xkAOn/VfoLqVmUsAraFy+iiSzm98vDq+/7yFEV3GSzCX8OPVYR7wCFUU8DO9dY= ; X-YMail-OSG: 5_k9FF0VM1lEYVMtJDV7ywMhSa4IIRNum4guRZkyZuARziLHDVKbobupw3IHL8aNoCsSBeqUvugQoX5mVX0aveL2qvAaIm.RMZ5zsSYwVg4Ws_fIoX5yrHWF929YdS7lDEwpyel3PTK7Ro0- Message-ID: <45BBF24B.8090205@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 16:46:03 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72336 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com OK - Lets assume that Ron Stiffler's device is robustly OU and is replicated by others. Here is why I think that any OU which is produced in could be *nuclear* in origin. But it's not the kind of "nuclear" which you had in mind. More specifically, in the past this little-known reaction has been called IPE or IGE. I have posted on this reaction before - may be it is in the archives, or maybe it was to another forum. 1) First off - in getting a proper handle on this situation, there is the "nuclear isomer." This is an isotope but not an isotope which will decay in the usual way, but it has an irregular or distorted nucleus. A nuclear isomer is a metastable state of an atomic nucleus caused by the long-term excitation of one or more of its protons or neutrons or both, but not strong enough to destroy it. A nuclear isomer occupies a higher energy state than the corresponding non-excited isotope. The nuclear isomer will sooner or later, often under stimulation, release the extra energy and decay back down to the ground state. Usually the release is a gamma. Barium may be different in that regard. 2)Some time ago, it was clear that the US was developing a new kind of quasi-nuclear weapon, the hafnium bomb (16 August 2003, p 4 "New Scientist" - and others). This weapon relies not on fission or fusion, but on triggering the release of excess energy stored in the distorted nucleus of the isotope hafnium-178, specifically its isomer known as hafnium-178m2. This isomer releases a strong gamma. 3) Barium has such an isomer called Ba-135m. 135Ba is itself about 6.6% of all barium and the isomer is a fraction of that which depends on how long, and how "hot" was the ore from which the barium was extracted. Barium ore invariably contains some radium. The gamma of barium is not all that strong, as with hafnium, or else the military would already be using it instead - as there is orders of magnitude more barium than halfnium. Also, halfnium with a high level of activity can be extracted from control rods which were used on nuclear submarines - thus it is almost a waste product. 4)It is possible that the metastable state of Barium can also be induced by HV. The nuclear isomer is technically radioactive, emitting its excess energy as a gamma ray, but it does not change the identity (nuclear Z) as do normal alpha or beta releases. The Pentagon was supposedly developing a way to trigger coordinated decay hafnium nuclei at once, using a conventional trigger and producing an explosive burst of gamma rays thousands of times more powerful than any conventional explosives but less than a standard nuclear weapon. Because the hafnium bomb would not involve fission or fusion, or residual radioactivity it might have been able to slip through a loophole in US law banning development of mini-nukes. This weapon may have already been used in Afghanistan because of its penetrating power. It wouldn't surprise me if you-know-who was fried to a crisp years ago in some cave. Back to peaceful uses - I think that this barium isomer effect may also have one added feature of extreme importance for the future - and this puts it into the same category as CF itself. Instead of a single gamma release (~270 keV) - the metastable energy is released more slowly the phonon structure - and in smaller bursts - probably at the frequency of 1.6 MHz. There you have it... R. Stiffler may have invented "The worlds smallest nuclear reactor" ... and you thought I was "pulling your leg," didn't you, Ron? Jones Stiffler Scientific wrote: > Yes! Yes!. Energy increase of 10k over 20khz and 40khz in transducer > effectiveness in sonoluminesce. Used now in vaporizers, is > spectrophotometer, etc,. etc., but used for specialized application and to > my knowledge no one has yet seen how it can be used to crack a very sought > after secret. >> Because it is also a common frequency found in piezo-ceramics, >> esp containing barium, it is the most common of the high >> ultrasonic frequency spectrum seen in those transducers. Also see >> Steve Krivit's report of the Stringham device at the LA APS a >> few years ago. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 17:01:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S117CU014191; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:01:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S115wk014172; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:01:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:01:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=s6a7wFrGsbQPlVgj2RrgDzZOh+1yFDvNJBgi9t29e2F5eiT6/B2d+/fAdHYP/BmM; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: "Vortex" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:00:53 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609db2604e02f15a5d6697ee600950e1b4793caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72337 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Circuit Cries foul Diagram This circuit _IS_NOT_OU_ it will not run itself, it can not as yet anyway as it hates to have its output section tied in any way to the input or earth ground. Conservation of Energy is safe, for now. :-) Please all of you I don't want a fire storm. I have received email from all to many 'Free Energy' never touched a solder iron people already so if my comment to Robin about 7W from <1 should for the present be ignored. To stop the mail asking for a circuit, here it is in all its simplicity. I have not included values or core material. If you want that I must communicate with you via private email. Look at the diagram and see if it helps with the question.... www.stifflerscientific.com/images/avtrig3.jpg From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 17:33:14 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S1X8sa024393; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:33:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S1X7RT024384; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:33:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:33:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nFGEhsghvIYaQ3H2+G/sIjdNBXZUs/30UER4IdnlYtKzI7Xo8Y8EQnyzwy0LL+AJ; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: "Vortex" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:32:58 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26091a4407c5dd115cbb99f49138cdcb01db350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72338 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Jones hypothesis on circuit cries foul Jones, I have not included your text for various reasons, among which should be the obvious. Anyone foolish enough to play with gamma, even low level begs a knock on the door :-( A device as you describe would for sure not be allowed in the public domain, just guess why and it has nothing to do with the power company. What do you do anyway have a monkey 24/7 in the back room searching the web and reading books? So why under a view such as yours, has not the scientific community caught on when 1.6Mhz has been chasing them around the room for some years now? From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 18:09:35 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S29VGe017935; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 18:09:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S29Tkm017923; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 18:09:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 18:09:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=q1ukDGo5qusGzghQNsN2XyE/oT/urK2B31Cy6vIBrbYErY/jlMOWlXMPuGT017O6WR/VSJjGqaY1Ka3tVzDtnRigOf9iTYh++IQbHT0YX/fmNJv1T/BfevUP2kyZFAnfVwCOQ6L5D9oYhSj5w1M9m3qc+1v+tGqeJ3cl53p6r+w= ; X-YMail-OSG: YWkrFqkVM1nAGJ0rYkE1KH12DItv1uEGBiAqEyo8KzlTzuIP1C.8zyE.8ipqvw.u2Ax4e5NkXjPc.irzqg0YU0nU07EePDLTaS3ckA-- Message-ID: <45BC05D2.60903@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 18:09:22 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72339 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Jones hypothesis on circuit Well let me clarify that confusing and hastily put-together message. There is, of course, no gamma radiation per se - that would surely have been noticed. What I am suggesting is that just as in cold fusion, where the expected ~24 MeV gamma-ray energy of deuterium fusing into helium is apparently released slowly into the metal matrix as heat (for some unknown reason) - perhaps something similar might be true here. Instead of a ~270 keV gamma, as expected, you would be getting a lot of phonon vibration in the core - and some of that vibration changes the inductance of the core, and thus anomalous energy seems to result from the inductive changes. That may be pushing the limits of what you have seen - but it is offered as a starting hypothesis which differs significantly from what Bearden/Sweet came up with to justify the apparent OU seen in that device. The "monkey" you mention - is always hyperactive in the gray room, so to speak the downside being a mild version of ADD. "Monkey" is a word which has been synonymous with "addictions" of one sort or another. One of my addictions, presumably legal (or not yet illegal) happens to be this "vision quest" for so-called "free energy". Apologies if it appeared that I was trying to "put words in you mouth"- at least the one word: "overunity" - as you were very careful (admirably so) not to make any exaggerated claims (which is somewhat of a rarity on newsgroups anyway). Anyway, certainly there are probably several interested people already out there dusting off old Sparky-projects - to see if they can come up with something similar to what you are seeing. The encouraging thing about the admittedly bizarre which hypothesis I have offered to explain it is this: if positive results are seen by others - there seems to be a number of simple ways to easily disprove a nuclear (IPE) origin. Jones Stiffler Scientific wrote: > Jones, I have not included your text for various reasons, among which should > be the obvious. > > Anyone foolish enough to play with gamma, even low level begs a knock on the > door :-( > > A device as you describe would for sure not be allowed in the public domain, > just guess why and it has nothing to do with the power company. > > What do you do anyway have a monkey 24/7 in the back room searching the web > and reading books? > > So why under a view such as yours, has not the scientific community caught > on when 1.6Mhz has been chasing them around the room for some years now? > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 18:29:56 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S2TTV3007357; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 18:29:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S2TRe5007319; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 18:29:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 18:29:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nuqmwIBWkligDHFfmK7Tfgmf9JFFqC3RQCUm/WgSN8kA5y3KQEEMQOfhppbnR0iH; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Jones hypothesis on circuit Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:29:17 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <45BC05D2.60903@pacbell.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609cd3565e00f07f0e9a4564edb48107fc0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72340 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Let me expand on something I stated earlier, the (Spooky) thing (very scientific term). Lets say we take a coil of similar parms as that which I use and excite it with 1.6Mhz and proceed to scan the surrounding area with a search coil to explore field strength (arbitrary levels). We would see the customary drop over distance as expected. All well and good, but this circuit with its core, when in sync with the 'Great Universal Generator' ::-) presents a constant field strength to 0.75m from the core to a point where its almost like you shut a door on it, the signal is gone. It does not express the normal (expected) RF radiation pattern. Now when the thing syncs you can almost feel it (maybe observer influence), but I gave up that wish thing long ago, it didn't work. All kidding aside this is a strange animal indeed. Now for the really fun part, how about diurnal effect? > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 8:09 PM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [Vo]: Re: Jones hypothesis on circuit > > > Well let me clarify that confusing and hastily put-together message. > > There is, of course, no gamma radiation per se - that would surely have > been noticed. What I am suggesting is that just as in cold fusion, where > the expected ~24 MeV gamma-ray energy of deuterium fusing into helium is > apparently released slowly into the metal matrix as heat (for some > unknown reason) - perhaps something similar might be true here. > > Instead of a ~270 keV gamma, as expected, you would be getting a lot of > phonon vibration in the core - and some of that vibration changes the > inductance of the core, and thus anomalous energy seems to result from > the inductive changes. > > That may be pushing the limits of what you have seen - but it is offered > as a starting hypothesis which differs significantly from what > Bearden/Sweet came up with to justify the apparent OU seen in that device. > > The "monkey" you mention - is always hyperactive in the gray room, so to > speak the downside being a mild version of ADD. "Monkey" is a word which > has been synonymous with "addictions" of one sort or another. One of my > addictions, presumably legal (or not yet illegal) happens to be this > "vision quest" for so-called "free energy". > > Apologies if it appeared that I was trying to "put words in you mouth"- > at least the one word: "overunity" - as you were very careful (admirably > so) not to make any exaggerated claims (which is somewhat of a rarity on > newsgroups anyway). > > Anyway, certainly there are probably several interested people already > out there dusting off old Sparky-projects - to see if they can come up > with something similar to what you are seeing. > > The encouraging thing about the admittedly bizarre which hypothesis I > have offered to explain it is this: if positive results are seen by > others - there seems to be a number of simple ways to easily disprove a > nuclear (IPE) origin. > > Jones > > > > > Stiffler Scientific wrote: > > Jones, I have not included your text for various reasons, among > which should > > be the obvious. > > > > Anyone foolish enough to play with gamma, even low level begs a > knock on the > > door :-( > > > > A device as you describe would for sure not be allowed in the > public domain, > > just guess why and it has nothing to do with the power company. > > > > What do you do anyway have a monkey 24/7 in the back room > searching the web > > and reading books? > > > > So why under a view such as yours, has not the scientific > community caught > > on when 1.6Mhz has been chasing them around the room for some years now? > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 19:45:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S3jgJf001755; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:45:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S3jeP7001738; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:45:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:45:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 14:45:24 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <45BBF24B.8090205@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <45BBF24B.8090205@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 28 Jan 2007 03:45:23 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0S3jY8o001673 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72341 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 27 Jan 2007 16:46:03 -0800: Hi, [snip] >3) Barium has such an isomer called Ba-135m. 135Ba is itself about 6.6% >of all barium and the isomer is a fraction of that which depends on how >long, and how "hot" was the ore from which the barium was extracted. >Barium ore invariably contains some radium. The gamma of barium is not >all that strong, as with hafnium, or else the military would already be >using it instead - as there is orders of magnitude more barium than >halfnium. Also, halfnium with a high level of activity can be extracted >from control rods which were used on nuclear submarines - thus it is >almost a waste product. ...however Ba135m only has a half-life of 1.2 days, whereas Hf-178m isomere has a half-life of 31 years. Consequently there is unlikely to be any significant amount of the Ba isomere present. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 19:58:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S3wY7m005126; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:58:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S3wX8d005105; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:58:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 19:58:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 14:58:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 28 Jan 2007 03:58:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0S3wVCH005081 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72342 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Stiffler Scientific's message of Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:40:21 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Sorry, NO! The frequency of the driver is 1.6Mhz and the discharge switch >rate is 70Hz, its not that easy to get 7W from <1. It might not be so difficult when you are holding the free end of the secondary in your hand, with your body acting as an antenna for the mains radiation, especially while holding an AC appliance (soldering iron?) in your other hand. The reason I'm harping on this is because radiation induced mains voltage always drops off precipitously when the device being measured is grounded. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au] >> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 4:46 PM >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul >> >> >> In reply to Stiffler Scientific's message of Sat, 27 Jan 2007 >> 13:27:47 -0600: >> Hi, >> [snip] >> >hundred hertz. Now with this circuit (my example) as you >> approach a specific >> >frequency there is a shift internal of the core and a very solid >> and quick >> >lock to the excitation. You may have to pull the input 1khz >> before it will >> >break free. The local environment has a very strong field around >> the circuit >> >that is very interesting and (spooky) want of a more descriptive word. >> [snip] >> I'm going to go out on a limb here, and guess that it works best when the >> oscillation frequency is 60 Hz. ;) (50 Hz if you happen to live >> in Europe or >> Australia). >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> >> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> >> Competition provides the motivation, >> Cooperation provides the means. >> Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 20:03:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S43WVv006506; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:03:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S43VHs006490; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:03:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:03:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:03:24 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 28 Jan 2007 04:03:24 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0S43P3Y006470 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72343 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Stiffler Scientific's message of Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:43:42 -0600: Hi, [snip] >God I should read all replies before I answer any. Your are getting close as >many others have done and just did not click with them. I can not explain >just how ingrained 1.6Mhz is with our environment and energy interchanges. [snip] Ok, lets take this a step further. Say the electron cyclotron frequency forms a sort of modulation of the Earth's magnetic field, and when the latter passes through the core of a coil, a link is established which allows the energy from the electrons in the Van Allen belts to be conducted through the Earth's field into the core of the coil, and thence into the windings, especially when the primary of the core is already being stimulated at the same frequency, allowing a form of resonance to occur. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 20:16:45 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S4GddY009712; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:16:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S4GZBe009697; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:16:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:16:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Jones hypothesis on circuit Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:16:32 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <45BC05D2.60903@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Sun, 28 Jan 2007 04:16:31 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0S4GWO7009675 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72344 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Stiffler Scientific's message of Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:29:17 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Let me expand on something I stated earlier, the (Spooky) thing (very >scientific term). > >Lets say we take a coil of similar parms as that which I use and excite it >with 1.6Mhz and proceed to scan the surrounding area with a search coil to >explore field strength (arbitrary levels). We would see the customary drop >over distance as expected. All well and good, but this circuit with its >core, when in sync with the 'Great Universal Generator' ::-) presents a >constant field strength to 0.75m from the core to a point where its almost >like you shut a door on it, the signal is gone. It does not express the >normal (expected) RF radiation pattern. Now when the thing syncs you can >almost feel it (maybe observer influence), but I gave up that wish thing >long ago, it didn't work. All kidding aside this is a strange animal indeed. >Now for the really fun part, how about diurnal effect? Google also dug this up: http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM2733.html Is it possible that you are picking up stray radiation from e.g. your palmtop, or other digital equipment (scope perhaps?). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 20:36:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S4a78Q015605; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:36:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S4a3tG015585; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:36:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:36:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=wcrNRdKHAIGTIRM9a3eHf9ns00NNW8jCH2bDzHlWBfmXSsKkI6RnaBBMwloBWopCinNefdSaIjmITZX+okDcDTbPunDiIHJ0QBE4nuNeNHnv8iMWydcd7n313IeHlmtccIrTKk/UPuF4SsKM3V26HSkxw7c9ooOIV3u2OfDhdzs= ; X-YMail-OSG: 7ASKocIVM1lOLuJ30yfXwLUlHY_LMPNf4gtmUZ3iXawrXtpX_JkKOhi4JJ4CTZSmq4zE7z39HxOjRJq7vSwp_jwIlGwGHehpUzibmXOtL03YEy8gv.h7kkb_6HbnjIBAUzhRn1yn4R5G_zvKzpX_62F5HNzp4.wGG0itL_lN.nKWHe_98kcRhSZBrSRT Message-ID: <45BC2825.70102@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:35:49 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45BBF24B.8090205@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72345 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Circuit cries foul Robin > ...however Ba135m only has a half-life of 1.2 days The anecdotal situation which is inferred (by me in this hypothesis) from Sweet's "conditioning" process, and the other reported alterations or variations of the necessary pretreatment, is that Ba135 can be elevated above ground state by a process which involves merely a static electric field for a period of exposure (shades of Wm. Barker). The larger question is whether or not this older information from Bearden/Sweet, which has been floating around for nearly 20 years, can be trusted. Certainly, it would not have been mentioned by me, were it not for Dr. Stiffler's posting this morning and the superficial resemblance of the two devices - with Barium being the common denominator (apparently). Since an electrostatic field, even in a long pretreatment regime, would presumably add little net energy itself, one is led to guess that the applied electric field is focusing or sensitizing the nucleus of 135Ba to absorb a wave or particle from an otherwise ambient flux. Coincidentally, the ~270 keV energy level (which 135m possesses - once it is "conditioned") happens to coincide with an often mentioned upper bound limit for one of the neutrino varieties (mu), http://www.lns.cornell.edu/public/CLEO/CLEO3/cleo3/proposal/subsubsection3_3_3_1.html The important thing that has been brought up today is that there appears to be an anomaly. Energy anomalies are good. Coincidences can be revealing. Much more needs to be done. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 20:52:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S4qIoc004610; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:52:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S4qGU8004602; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:52:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:52:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=ygwn4BbJXFrRDexWqagsY5pG2Y4PlgI001tdY+2BXIxecdZ7BH+0cZ3wdWCImBVkWzRbD3vOa5iLqlcJlfnulVfwUP98ZetS1lhwTPsUFuY1x0bsY6zYahLZeOb6JVu6yIBv5D0KX3CCC5OFDV8xOVX51UWojW1Slwgr8LV5iYw=; X-YMail-OSG: HQqUvmIVM1nGB3PAjjH1Q1Gg.BJ.aK2z9uDfXOpLg2ahK6ltRmNlj7OstXPJf1Dz9_L_J5aCgExXSmkn1F2wrP93Q.RGu7kbnyJAQafvl9P6aoHy82TpxmCJVysk_WpCgDyzSalzxyDqKeslPSfPRllOhCUDE4w0ZuF70XxNWreNmUc4SfKu8lw8K8eihU7uGQjYTQ-- Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:52:15 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <362916.5677.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72346 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: > You insist, very aggressively, that my statement was incorrect even if I meant one electro-magnet. Well the case is simple enough, let's work it out. If it's non-resistive it's purely inductive, so v=-L*di/dt right? So if current i is constant, voltage v is zero, therefore consumed power i*v is zero, and so is consumed energy i*v*t. So as I said, "a non-resistive current loop would not consume any energy to keep the current going". > > Now this may come as an even bigger surprise to you, but a pure inductance is in fact unable to consume _any energy at all_, even if current is not constant. It can store energy (1/2*L*i^2), it can transfer energy when mutual inductance is at play, but it just can't consume any. Resistance can consume energy, reactance can't, any textbook will tell you that. You still do not see it. Back to your quote, "You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, true but that's ***ONLY*** because the wires are resistive." Lets consider an electro-magnet that has no wire resistance. We energize the coil, which moves energy from the battery to the near and far field. Right off the bat we have unrecoverable energy lost in the far field ... with no wire resistance. :-))) Now to continue, near the electro-magnet is another electro-magnet. This electro-magnet accelerates toward our original electro-magnet, which induces an opposing voltage against the original electro-magnets current. This consumes energy from the original electro-magnet in the amount of the opposing voltage times the current. Then the electro-magnets turn off to collect some of the original energy. The amount of energy lost during the entire process is equal to far field loss plus KE energy gained. :-) > P.S. The confusion over the definition of "universe" is yours (and shared by all people talking about multiple universes) I am afraid. As I said the universe is all there is, by definition: > http://www.thefreedictionary.com/universe > as can be easily understood from such derived words as "universal". If you dislike the word, "nature" is fine for me too. You still don't seem to understand. Even the same website clarifies if you took the time to lookup Omniverse --> http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Omniverse Quote, "In physical cosmology, omniverse is a term used to differentiate a limited number of ***universes*** from all existent universes." Take note of the plural word "universes." Again, the definition of "universe" is in the process of changing, now that we are accepting existence beyond our universe. > No offense as you like to say, but isn't this an excellent occasion to show us how gladly you admit being in error Paul? ;-) So far I am not in error, and it seems you are not willing to claim your 2nd and 3rd error. Regards, Paul Lowrance > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 6:40 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > ... >> I am blunt, and make no apologies for it. When in >> error I ***gladly*** admit such error. >> Saving face IMHO it pitiful. > >>> I know about induced emf, my comment >>> mentioned no other current loop around, in which >> context it is 100% correct :) > >> I am sorry, but your statement was clear and >> incorrect. Your quote, >> --- >> "You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, >> true but that's only because the wires >> are resistive. A non-resistive current loop would not >> consume any energy to keep the >> current going." >> --- >> You said, "electromagnets" Notice the "s," which >> means plural. You know what? It does >> not even matter if you meant one electro-magnet >> because your statement is still incorrect. >> Electro-magnets have induction, so you can't even >> energize the thing without consuming >> such energy. Of course there is wire resistance, but >> there is also ***reactance***. >> Right off the bat your statement is incorrect. >> Second, we were clearly discussing two >> electro-magnets accelerating toward each other. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 20:59:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S4wp2a021475; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:58:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S4wk1q021449; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:58:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:58:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=si/iLZ1wODmGQ9tmBhRGhkJARWE1KBkPOQ3G5SxdqGTbolkpBENyLBxCKdXsW6+VQrE6RidubtLcIaxdebOHXQ4ev8gK6o35/GljzC4fxPL/U3jvIRK0wWsQzX17TlWPcvXsQkBozs78iPFjqHArivF8Vl+FRjt6AIoZm4OAWe0=; X-YMail-OSG: V4EvKdsVM1nkq_gPCSKhGhSOLwNKUnVQfdas.LGtb1SScWOVim.lGDWZ6chLIi322w-- Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:58:40 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: [Vo]: C2C quest -> Charles Seife on parallel universes, etc. To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <150726.15224.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72347 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tonight on Coast To Coast AM (~10 million live listeners each night) --> Author & associate Prof. at NYU, Charles Seife, returns for a second consecutive weekend to discuss parallel universes & quantum science. Now there could not be more than one universe if the universe is all there is, lol, right? ;-) http://www.coasttocoastam.com Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 21:16:47 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S5GfSf025895; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 21:16:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S5GeNw025882; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 21:16:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 21:16:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 00:14:39 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Einstein's Elevator & Le Sage's Gravity Theory In-reply-to: <45BA5814.7020502@pobox.com> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72348 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > > Harry Veeder wrote: >> Consider the situation far from any planets or stars. >> >> If the ball-bearing is initially at the centre of the shell it will remain >> there. If it is initially off centre, the ball bearing and the shell will >> move so as to minimize the distance between the point on the shell that was >> initially closest to the ball bearing. >> >> >> This is my prediction. It does not violate conservation of momentum, >> but it is not based on Newton's or Einstein's conception of gravity. > > I haven't worked it out, but I think a force going as 1/r^3 would have > that effect. Actually any rate of falloff faster than 1/r^2 should do > that, I think. I wouldn't try to "work it out". The theory which gives rise to this prediction is in the very early stages of gestation. > But ... the fact that Mercury's orbit precesses as it does is evidence > that "real" gravity around a spherically symmetric object doesn't > actually fall off as 1/r^2 (falls off a bit faster, IIRC), which makes > me wonder whether "real" gravity would also show that effect, albeit > weakly (my "proof" using the Ricci tensor notwithstanding ... among > other things I assumed a massless ball bearing, which is a little wrong). > In Newton's mathematical model of gravity an equivalency exists between power-of-inertia and power-of-attraction. The properties of inertia (a.k.a inertial mass-points) are transferred to points-of-attraction (a.k.a. gravitational mass points) through the equivalency. Also since the power-of-inertia is communicated by contact the transference leads to the paradox of action at a distance. One way to address the paradox is to extend inertia into space and time, which is what Einstein did. In this way we are never out of "touch" with inertia. My way is to begin by giving gravity a distinct power from that of inertia. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 27 22:33:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0S6X7Wt020956; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 22:33:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0S6X58K020949; Sat, 27 Jan 2007 22:33:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 22:33:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45BC4382.8080209@usfamily.net> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 00:32:34 -0600 From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics References: <410-22007162712293751@earthlink.net> <061d01c74211$ac26ce10$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <061d01c74211$ac26ce10$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <3ip6BD.A.RHF.hOEvFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72349 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com >>I had planned set it on the scale with it sitting atop an aluminum foil sheet laying >>on a 3 inch thick Styrofoam plank and using a bank of D batteries >>feeding an inverter feeding the scale and VDG >>so it can "pump" electrons between the globe and the >>foil so that there wouldn't' be any net charge on the setup wrt ground, >>and watching for weight change when a grounded sheet of >>aluminum foil is held above the globe. However... suggestions??? >> >>Fred >> >> Be sure that you subtract or add for potential interaction with the Earth's magnetic field. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! --- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 02:48:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SAmO5P032282; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 02:48:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SAmMkf032267; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 02:48:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 02:48:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=p16da4U5InDgotkNjy4SRqG+kVtZOI8UYtNgLLOsjKJMAEKISnSf3bdGvYpkR1MAALPxg6W+s+5bvcjgkd0oTWglDtAZ36GArfcaVqfyjDdUST2c1KBh7YCSq5CTM4qEhufwB7zPp6FGDG3qTrjtad0oLO7pRkfdHhUOI+afF1w= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:48:21 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11246_13463042.1169981301246" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72350 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Easy Unidirectional Force, get out your calculators... ------=_Part_11246_13463042.1169981301246 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline T2ssIGhlcmUgaXMgYSBjaGFsbGVuZ2UsIHBsZWFzZSBjYWxjdWxhdGUgdGhlIHVuaWRpcmVjdGlv bmFsIGZvcmNlIHRoYXQKd291bGQgYmUgY3JlYXRlZCBieSBoYXZpbmcgYSAyeDEgaW5jaCBjdWJl IG5lb2R5bWl1bSBtYWduZXRzICgxIFRlc2xhKQpzZXBhcmF0ZWQgYnkgMiBpbmNoZXMgaW4gYXR0 cmFjdGlvbi4gVmVydGljYWxseSBhbGlnbmVkCgpOb3cgYXNzdW1lIHRoYXQgZ3Jhdml0eSBpcyBl cXVpdmFsZW50IHRvIGFjY2VsZXJhdGlvbjoKCl4gMSBHIG9mIHZpcnR1YWwgYWNjZWxlcmF0aW9u IHVwLiAoaGVuY2UgZyBmb3JjZSBkb3duIHRoZSBwYWdlKQpTCo0KTgpTCo0KTgoKTm93IGluIHRo ZSAwLjAwMDAwMDAwMDE2OSBvZiBhIHNlY29uZCB0aGF0IGl0IGhhcyB0YWtlbiB0aGUgbWFnbmV0 aWMgZmllbGQKdG8gZ2V0IHRvIHRoZSB0b3AgbWFnbmV0IGZyb20gYm90dG9tIG1hZ25ldCB0aGUg cG9zaXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIGJvdHRvbQptYWduZXQgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQsIGJ1dCB0aGUgZmllbGQg Y2FuJ3Qga25vdyB0aGlzIGNoYW5nZSBpbiBwb3NpdGlvbiBoYXMKb2NjdXJyZWQgc28gaXQgZG9l c24ndCBwZW5ldHJhdGUgYXMgZGVlcCAoaXQgc2VlcyB0aGUgbmV3IHBvc2l0aW9uIG9mIHRoZQp0 b3AgbWFnbmV0IGJ1dCBvbmx5IGtub3dzIG9mIHRoZSBvbGQgbG9jYXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIGJvdHRv bSBtYWduZXQpLgpIb3dldmVyIHRoZSBtYWduZXRpYyBmaWVsZCBvZiB0aGUgdG9wIG1hZ25ldCBp cyBlZmZlY3RpbmcgdGhlIGJvdHRvbSBtYWduZXQKbW9yZSBwb3dlcmZ1bGx5IHRoYW4gaXQgc2hv dWxkIGJlY2F1c2UgaXQgY2FuJ3Qga25vdyB0aGF0IHRoZSBtYWduZXQgdGhhdApjcmVhdGVkIGl0 IGhhcyBzaW5jZSByZWxvY2F0ZWQsIGFuZCBpZiBpdCBkaWQgdGhhdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBpbnN0YW50 YW5lb3VzCmNvbW11bmljYXRpb24uCgpUaGlzIGdpdmVzIGEgbmV0IHRocnVzdCB1cHdhcmRzLCB0 aGUgb25seSBxdWVzdGlvbiBpcyBob3cgc3Ryb25nPwpJbnRlcmVzdGluZ2x5IGlmIHlvdSBjb3Vs ZCBjcmVhdGUgYSBzdHJvbmcgZW5vdWdoIGZpZWxkIGFuZCBtYXliZSBkZWxheSBpdAood2hhdCBh Ym91dCB0aG9zZSBzcGVjaWFsIGdhcyBlbnZpcm9ubWVudHMgdGhleSBhcmUgc2xvd2luZyBsaWdo dCB3aXRoPyBpcwp0aGlzIG5vdCBqdXN0IHVsdHJhIGxvdyBmcmVxdWVuY3kgbGlnaHQ/IDspIGVu b3VnaCB0aGVuIHlvdSBjb3VsZCBoYXZlCnNvbWV0aGluZyB0aGF0IG9uY2UgZ2l2ZW4gYW4gaW5p dGlhbCBpbXB1bHNlIHdvdWxkIHNlbGYgYWNjZWxlcmF0ZSEgZXIgd2FpdCwKbmVnYXRpdmUgaW5l cnRpYSBvbmNlIGEgY2VydGFpbiBHIGZvcmNlIGhhcyBiZWVuIHJlYWNoZWQhPyE/CgpQbGVhc2Ug ZG9uJ3QgdGVsbCBtZSB0aGVyZSBtdXN0IGJlIGEgZmxhdyB5b3UganVzdCBjYW4ndCB3b3JrIG91 dCB5ZXQsIGp1c3QKdGVsbCBtZSBob3cgcGxhdXNpYmxlIHRoaXMgdGhpbmcgd291bGQgYmUgdG8g bWVhc3VyZS4K ------=_Part_11246_13463042.1169981301246 Content-Type: text/html; 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Sun, 28 Jan 2007 05:15:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SDFOfF002559; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 05:15:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 05:15:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <072701c742de$58c029b0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <362916.5677.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 14:15:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0SDFM5l002539 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72351 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Indeed you're right there are several universes, the one that works as you believe, plus the real one lol :) Energy stored in a pure inductor is fully recoverable actually, as you would know if you had done any switchmode power converter design. Again, reactance stores energy, resistance consumes it. Over and out, enjoy your simulations :) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 5:52 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > > You insist, very aggressively, that my statement > was incorrect even if I meant one > electro-magnet. Well the case is simple enough, let's > work it out. If it's non-resistive > it's purely inductive, so v=-L*di/dt right? So if > current i is constant, voltage v is > zero, therefore consumed power i*v is zero, and so is > consumed energy i*v*t. So as I said, > "a non-resistive current loop would not consume any > energy to keep the current going". > > > > Now this may come as an even bigger surprise to > you, but a pure inductance is in fact > unable to consume _any energy at all_, even if current > is not constant. It can store > energy (1/2*L*i^2), it can transfer energy when mutual > inductance is at play, but it just > can't consume any. Resistance can consume energy, > reactance can't, any textbook will tell > you that. > > > > You still do not see it. Back to your quote, "You > keep telling us electromagnets consume > energy, true but that's ***ONLY*** because the wires > are resistive." Lets consider an > electro-magnet that has no wire resistance. We > energize the coil, which moves energy from > the battery to the near and far field. Right off the > bat we have unrecoverable energy > lost in the far field ... with no wire resistance. > :-))) Now to continue, near the > electro-magnet is another electro-magnet. This > electro-magnet accelerates toward our > original electro-magnet, which induces an opposing > voltage against the original > electro-magnets current. This consumes energy from the > original electro-magnet in the > amount of the opposing voltage times the current. > Then the electro-magnets turn off to > collect some of the original energy. The amount of > energy lost during the entire process > is equal to far field loss plus KE energy gained. :-) > > > > > > > > P.S. The confusion over the definition of > "universe" is yours (and shared by all people > talking about multiple universes) I am afraid. As I > said the universe is all there is, by > definition: > > http://www.thefreedictionary.com/universe > > as can be easily understood from such derived words > as "universal". If you dislike the > word, "nature" is fine for me too. > > > > You still don't seem to understand. Even the same > website clarifies if you took the time > to lookup Omniverse --> > > http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Omniverse > Quote, "In physical cosmology, omniverse is a term > used to differentiate a limited number > of ***universes*** from all existent universes." Take > note of the plural word > "universes." Again, the definition of "universe" is > in the process of changing, now that > we are accepting existence beyond our universe. > > > > > > > > No offense as you like to say, but isn't this an > excellent occasion to show us how > gladly you admit being in error Paul? ;-) > > > So far I am not in error, and it seems you are not > willing to claim your 2nd and 3rd error. > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Paul" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 6:40 PM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using > *standard* physics > > ... > >> I am blunt, and make no apologies for it. When in > >> error I ***gladly*** admit such error. > >> Saving face IMHO it pitiful. > > > >>> I know about induced emf, my comment > >>> mentioned no other current loop around, in which > >> context it is 100% correct :) > > > >> I am sorry, but your statement was clear and > >> incorrect. Your quote, > >> --- > >> "You keep telling us electromagnets consume > energy, > >> true but that's only because the wires > >> are resistive. A non-resistive current loop would > not > >> consume any energy to keep the > >> current going." > >> --- > >> You said, "electromagnets" Notice the "s," which > >> means plural. You know what? It does > >> not even matter if you meant one electro-magnet > >> because your statement is still incorrect. > >> Electro-magnets have induction, so you can't even > >> energize the thing without consuming > >> such energy. Of course there is wire resistance, > but > >> there is also ***reactance***. > >> Right off the bat your statement is incorrect. > >> Second, we were clearly discussing two > >> electro-magnets accelerating toward each other. > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Need Mail bonding? > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 05:45:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SDjMFK014959; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 05:45:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SDjGFR014924; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 05:45:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 05:45:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=VYgWAsWeJa6zelryq0xU15tiTFjw4k1kpJM4rTRgJtYaCbCCb6xNRD+dqpdPK4TY; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: "Vortex" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:45:03 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609a672e9cd82189f2d1fb7a4a177c95c65a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <98CgkC.A._oD.sjKvFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72352 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: 1.6mhz and similar interest Many of you may have seen this posting, I'm sure Jones staff did :-), its far to similar to 'Circuit Cries Foul'. except that it has no electrical driving force. On some group I posted my thought that because of the physical size of the capacitors that the frequency of resonance must be in the low megahertz range, I don't remember stating an exact frequency in my guess. This circuit was dismissed as a well modeled fake(?), Now if it indeed is or was a fake the perpetrators took some time and went to some effort to be labeled fools. After Jones proposed his thoughts I went back and dug it up, it still can be found at the following link. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Resonant_Nuclear_Reactor In doing my own research on the web I came across the following link to a PDF on a SETI find called the WOW signal, you may find it of interest even when not applied to my circuit. http://65.108.189.168/Docs/The%20Seti%20WOW%20Signal.pdf Now the core that is used in my test system is in fact a Barium Ferrite core and they are (were) very common as antenna cores in old transistor radios. The new cores seem not to display the strange response. Now core shape has nothing really to do with it, the old bars were rectangle and about 5cm long. Newer bars as stated seem not to work as do not all older ones. I have gone through a number of bars to find a set of 10 (-1 foolish mistake) that do indeed work and have about 23 of the same bar that do not work? It has so far been non-productive in trying to obtain the composition of the material, I can only assume most were made overseas and they have no physical identification markings. If someone even thought there was a possibility I was not 'LoLo' then one must be able to secure a number of cores to get one that works, a witch hunt, maybe. I initially had the first bar and still retain the first coil so I can always go back to square one. I'll post so additional specs on the circuit later and a few 'don't do's' that would be common procedure for an EE trying this. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 06:59:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SEx7Qc009367; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 06:59:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SEx5Ov009343; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 06:59:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 06:59:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ityyATrjqKNc94ptwDO+4cYvCV77Ps1GqM/JSD8fytboGi0FS+xQq/BwWoJa5KEZJGzPlVbqzwNR/JkU9Ss+ovDNcbco+Gy4Io08BJkg7GO6KGoxxKIPbnTeXaVKi+FuqjuLzadFn5m19xtXixaEHlNrowE6QNXp0O7GqxOWC20= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:59:03 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Jones hypothesis on circuit In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45BC05D2.60903@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72353 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On 1/27/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Is it possible that you are picking up stray radiation from e.g. your palmtop, > or other digital equipment (scope perhaps?). No, more likely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_AM_broadcast_band Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 07:09:23 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SF9FuW013532; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:09:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SF9ED5013508; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:09:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:09:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: Udi4xuoVM1njF0qJewAjRCxsRcY3Y9rhkxATYmexc82Hzvqmg8zVxJz17nZnw2NoIWQaMpXOkWHtTaAnMgV3YWs6a29ZICTW2IfS4CK6EtPP4r6iGENYanvfOiPH43yt.z8DedbPsgtnxgo- Message-ID: <45BCBC97.6070302@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 10:09:11 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <362916.5677.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <072701c742de$58c029b0$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <072701c742de$58c029b0$3800a8c0@zothan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <9btV_D.A.9SD.ayLvFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72354 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com You folks are mostly arguing definitions at this point IMHO and I don't want to get involved in that. However, there's something here that bugs me whenever I think about this stuff. Michel Jullian wrote: > Energy stored in a pure inductor is fully recoverable actually Yes, of course, v = -L dI/dt and what goes in must come out. But as someone mentioned, when you turn on the power an EM wave travels out from the inductor at C, carrying energy. How's that energy get back to the inductor again when we open the circuit? If it doesn't, then that formula, v = -L dI/dt, must not be quite correct. Related issue: If the inductor is part of a transformer the "other coil" absorbs energy and that doesn't come back out (or, rather, it comes out the "other side" of the transformer). But if we separate the primary and the secondary coils by significant distance, the primary doesn't know for a long time that the secondary absorbed some of the energy -- so how does it know it shouldn't give back the full complement of energy to the power supply during the second half of the cycle? This is particular interesting with regard to an antenna, which seems like it's just a transformer with a lot of distance between primary and secondary. An antenna is basically just an ideal inductor, yet it radiates away power that doesn't come back out at the terminals. What's the difference between an antenna and a simple coil, _aside_ from the fact that we "think about" an antenna as broadcast device and a coil as an energy storage device? Maybe the answer is obvious if you work through the math but antenna theory is messy enough that "working through the math" is a nontrivial exercise... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 07:11:10 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SFAtGu014256; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:10:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SFAsIR014244; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:10:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:10:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=raFKANucGQv+YiSKJdJXYbKYlm7WPXMSAhtKONsJLlfa8U5zTFwy/7Cx5skckDew; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Jones hypothesis on circuit Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:10:40 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c260956dfda7da7a1e59affd3d87965e9dd1f3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72355 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Terry, > > > Is it possible that you are picking up stray radiation from > e.g. your palmtop, > > or other digital equipment (scope perhaps?). > Nice thought, but run the calculations and you will see the required field strength/meter for me to extract this type of energy. Also if you have not, look at the circuit diagram, its not an amplifier. In fact if that density was in my lab which is not close to much, I would be able to light that neon just by holding it in the air with a short length of wire. Granted the diagram shows a coil (un-tuned) and diodes, but you would really need high localized coupling to do this and that's not it. > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 8:59 AM > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Jones hypothesis on circuit > > > On 1/27/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > Is it possible that you are picking up stray radiation from > e.g. your palmtop, > > or other digital equipment (scope perhaps?). > > No, more likely: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_AM_broadcast_band > > Terry > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 07:39:27 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SFdBB2024830; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:39:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SFd9ZV024817; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:39:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:39:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Tucl8mBXEUO54JiFIDE4HVghEzSBJdZaERGEeKB8ucCHb3KzK05WBbS3Rv3GIXwBGU6BbiYIl8BT2u8UVqJh3hq2ahGd58+vjTKEyHSTt9onvDzfXvNhKY/83s+bhSAC434HADlZU8mY4qUts3uTQoUcEnXlcazofRSDeWfy2uE= ; X-YMail-OSG: KP0fACgVM1l1TFHFzPfvxUk5nZyoVYtGjO20T2GkaVg8H.Yd1SsYUo9XMV_dOqQ1KpGlEi8KYihuMlut1AB9QhQ2E6AZ28WoUg0oyFSV_YSoMt_R4sXMzf1HqiFK0k.U0zk6mdIU6Wgt8PMV3dT_MHTSeOaA36Ud Message-ID: <45BCC395.9090908@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:39:01 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72356 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: 1.6mhz and similar interest Stiffler Scientific wrote: > This circuit was dismissed as a well modeled fake(?), Now if it indeed is or > was a fake the perpetrators took some time and went to some effort to be > labeled fools. > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Resonant_Nuclear_Reactor This is indeed a fabulous effort for anyone to undertake solely as a some kind of Internet-spoof, but then again, the whole field of free-energy is loaded with disinformation, sadly. One can only hope that this one - the RNR does not fall into the same category as some of the others, as it tends to validate what 'could be' happening in the Stiffler device, as well as others. This "RNR" category of device also echoes the continuing mystery behind the Paul Brown saga. The fact that the device above was so quickly labeled as a fake by a close associate of Brown makes the story even more intriguing. The cynic of course will quip that "it takes one to know one" and perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between. Most important of all the issues of proof in this line of reasoning IMHO is the following bit of historical data. Were it not for the Alfred Hubbard story from the 1920s in the Seattle area - and the fairly reliable press reports of the day, and the admission that pilfered radium was involved with that device - this whole explanatory situation could be more easily written off as a succession of related pranks. http://www.linux-host.org/energy/shubbard.html At any rate, my hope is that interested researchers will revisit this chapter in the history of alternative energy with some measure of added insight - especially if it means that radium, etc or other toxic elements are NOT necessary for success. There is more than one way to "skin a cat" as they say. And the beauty of any nuclear reaction which does not involve residual toxic radiation is certainly the great allure of LENR. Arguably the RNR-type of conversion device, based on any available nuclear isomer (there could be better ones than Barium125m) is preferable to cold fusion in that you have a high-value output (electricity rather than heat) from the git-go and that is even if the active material is in the $1000 per ounce (projected with increased demand) price range of Pd. Now - if anyone in Volandia should chance upon a good resource for large Barium Ferrite cores, and it will probably be a supplier from China, please post the details. Jones And finally - so as to appease cat-lovers and PETA activists alike, the "skin a cat" idiom is not to be taken literally: http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/32/messages/575.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 07:49:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SFn3fH029164; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:49:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SFn1fK029145; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:49:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:49:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Phjb2ysYX9Oh41/YuUWLrqaMTtamIikHtugBhEYmJi3/X8bNFtkpugMe2qQzA7fEl9r16XXZXj7sV9JUqquanlRvf7IaI0KUqDPQ/IFg5AFlMaI+eM6/rYa3Z/f8xro6B+zaHYrpC7+JURyhCLaSeb8y/64sWMJRhYBP7/gL28c= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 10:48:59 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: 1.6mhz and similar interest In-Reply-To: <45BCC395.9090908@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <45BCC395.9090908@pacbell.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72357 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On 1/28/07, Jones Beene wrote: > And finally - so as to appease cat-lovers and PETA activists alike, the > "skin a cat" idiom is not to be taken literally: I took it quite literally after our Maine Coon Cat broke my wife's favorite serving dish. I found him on the kitchen island peering down at the broken dish and imagined him thinking, "I wonder where they put the super glue?" :-) Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 07:51:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SFpd2l006351; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:51:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SFpbKr006326; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:51:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 07:51:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=jsk+BjFG0MuDYlasixfbbgwzQzXidRDG31o9cUzsorwrqVwnFc83NXrFGa5ogKDg; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: "Vortex" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:51:25 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609d4f48f3bc13103f227fadd6a45c8ffc9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: <7HDDED.A.niB.IaMvFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72358 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Waveform Circuit Cries Foul Okay already, for the people that are giving me the bad name (again), here is a wave form. Now I have labeled certain points, the rest is up to you that can tell, where it is taking place, (not why, but where). www.stifflerscientific.com/images/avtrig4.jpg From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 08:03:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SG3MUk014668; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:03:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SG3KqW014646; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:03:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:03:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=gZzeOCKETllflOaCFoHS6l1RTAj+rc99wC5cVRGd+iXlSFAqsPl+HdZ5Z9NRkltJ; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Waveform Circuit Cries Foul Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 10:03:10 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26094a478d5a79932a1e7aaec77cb07385a7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72359 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com No the pulse is not on the gate, the following pulls the display so you can see clearly. www.stifflerscientific.com/images/avtrig5.jpg > -----Original Message----- > From: Stiffler Scientific [mailto:stifflerscientific@earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 9:51 AM > To: Vortex > Subject: [Vo]: Waveform Circuit Cries Foul > > > Okay already, for the people that are giving me the bad name (again), here > is a wave form. Now I have labeled certain points, the rest is up to you > that can tell, where it is taking place, (not why, but where). > > www.stifflerscientific.com/images/avtrig4.jpg > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 08:25:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SGPMal011060; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:25:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SGPKJY011046; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:25:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:25:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=1DC4ilYUA3T0w51rYLL4ZVjgjaTSG8fUAZAoXa6gi5FaOJtXwXmWJlLhQvdhIuyMsxnXtXZm6aO4G91UQrAfrHy0P6FhGBBhMiJtpRaytlOIg5GedKKrwSR8ZtQetcbf5a7bB1Wq0OOTl4lZSv8Jw3e0Om9jduid1B93RoYTAH0= ; X-YMail-OSG: _24KbzIVM1mGMl9P6mhxnyCogsnQyVrzKK8tFQn5tYI8oKLLIxBPlb3lnbrZ.VX7OS5qHvDp997.7gkwfOhl6CXGF3K2YQMkEfOmKYq93OftxyCHaLU- Message-ID: <45BCCE69.3000607@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:25:13 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45BC05D2.60903@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72360 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Side Note: Extended AM band Terry Blanton wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_AM_broadcast_band If it does turn out, in this thread, that the "mundane rules over the exotic" - as is usually the case admittedly ... and that this particular anomaly is related to what could be - not only an ultra-efficient receiver for RF in the extended band - but also a kind of self-powered broadcaster, then .... The side note of interest goes back to Ron's historical observation that the early radio antennas often consisted of a wound bar of barium ferrite. My favorite 'Nam-era Pioneer stereo receiver-amp (and home-heating device ) had one of these, but soon after they were abandoned ...anyway ... this cause-and-effect scenario could be the very reason that 1.6 Mhz was carefully sandwiched-away and into broadcasting obscurity by the FCC in the early days of radio. That is to say: Maybe the antenna itself in those days had the potential to add so much self-generated "static" to the narrow RF spectrum around 1.6 MHz that it had been pragmatically eliminated early-on as too undesirable a range for the technology of the day. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 08:41:58 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SGfpfK030489; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:41:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SGfoZS030475; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:41:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 08:41:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: 1.6mhz and similar interest Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 10:41:42 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Chzlrs: 0 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72361 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Terry sez: > > And finally - so as to appease cat-lovers and PETA activists alike, the > > "skin a cat" idiom is not to be taken literally: > > I took it quite literally after our Maine Coon Cat broke my wife's > favorite serving dish. I found him on the kitchen island peering down > at the broken dish and imagined him thinking, "I wonder where they put > the super glue?" > > :-) > > Terry In my experience cats tend to be more pragmatic about such mundane matters. Under similar circumstances I would have imagined our own felines to have said, "Well, that certainly made a loud noise. Oh, a human has just walked into the kitchen. Are you going to feed us?" Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 09:10:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SHAMxZ013407; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:10:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SHAL7x013397; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:10:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:10:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=6qWYFp6vxtpYLEYldufeXAHu7UsyknknsievXHDmcNAE9bYsw0/Vyh8Wdn83By74Jp9k46qjROPw/7PfYKuRS3pazfw28E1mSPwOpy6F8TK6coPtIeG+iDOikvnMJV232jPukRokDFR6RygHoDAGOpp7FBu8dlnkjyTGS4G9wVI=; X-YMail-OSG: OZtiJ.sVM1klFFWJpD7sNOFD_oFTnxZ8jj7PXJkNgjS4jF0iNctH3Rl.dacJdhDOTzxOSDr3Uw77fEGzKo0pB1pwFRv__0p8H5IEv_.uQVIwj6KeL63FBfdmYjsrOvJvis68Av5wMmizrIJP37UO98zj Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:10:18 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <932706.24123.qm@web62415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72362 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: > Indeed you're right there are several universes, the one that works as you believe, plus the real one lol :) According to MWI all universes are real. :-) I read of a poll that revealed most top physicists believe in MWI, including Stephen Hawking. > Energy stored in a pure inductor is fully recoverable actually, as you would know if you had done any switchmode power converter design. Again, reactance stores energy, resistance consumes it. > > Over and out, enjoy your simulations :) I never said energy in a pure inductor is not recoverable. An electro-magnet cannot be purely inductive. Do you agree? Being evasive to save face is not healthy. You went from --> #1 Trying to prove two accelerating attracted electro-magnets consumes no energy. To --> #2 Trying to prove the only energy consumed in an electro-magnet is due to "wire resistance." To --> #3 A pure inductor has no energy loss. There can be no di/dt in an electro-magnet without causing a far field. Electro-magnets do not recover far field energy. Do you agree? Two accelerating attracted electro-magnets moves energy from the electro-magnets current source to KE. Do you agree? Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 09:29:37 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SHTNvE019083; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:29:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SHTLQh019069; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:29:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:29:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=WHHs/h1BdlApirJMe+3rdcGWnbI5QvWARwg4vpurTDtdHN5eM7T4X83nFNcoyf1W9VUQPF+85T+fxplZ9z/gvGw8fX91rdmpk/Hfxt2Cy8i2Se5WR4MDnytRHv/5vUmb9COszfEDw3HO1BJcg9gkq05JEbNKVkbArAXuw4Ny/V4=; X-YMail-OSG: v.YZuisVM1my8PiQTG61ji0mA2p5Xcnx8ECNBeXPEyNjlmlp4YYW1puRt3ppnnJgeQ-- Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 09:29:19 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <167609.62270.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72363 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: [snip] > However, there's something here that bugs > me whenever I think about this stuff. > > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> Energy stored in a pure inductor is fully recoverable actually > > Yes, of course, v = -L dI/dt and what goes in must come out. > > But as someone mentioned, when you turn on the power an EM wave travels > out from the inductor at C, carrying energy. How's that energy get back > to the inductor again when we open the circuit? If it doesn't, then > that formula, v = -L dI/dt, must not be quite correct. The fundamental equation appears correct. What is commonly misunderstood is that electro-magnets cannot be purely inductive due to radiation resistance. There's wire resistance, and there's radiation resistance. > Related issue: If the inductor is part of a transformer the "other > coil" absorbs energy and that doesn't come back out (or, rather, it > comes out the "other side" of the transformer). But if we separate the > primary and the secondary coils by significant distance, the primary > doesn't know for a long time that the secondary absorbed some of the > energy -- so how does it know it shouldn't give back the full complement > of energy to the power supply during the second half of the cycle? In such a case energy from the primary is radiated. This causes radiation resistance on the primary coil. It would be the goal of the secondary to capture as much radiation as possible. > This is particular interesting with regard to an antenna, which seems > like it's just a transformer with a lot of distance between primary and > secondary. An antenna is basically just an ideal inductor, yet it > radiates away power that doesn't come back out at the terminals. Radiation resistance. > What's the difference between an antenna and a simple coil, _aside_ from > the fact that we "think about" an antenna as broadcast device and a coil > as an energy storage device? As you know, coil designers try to eliminate as much radiation resistance as possible. Antennas are designed to do the opposite. Both have inductance and radiation resistance. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 10:55:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SItiLh000437; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 10:55:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SItgnA000419; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 10:55:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 10:55:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=YDwjHTBprN9A+gzCoi3RmQqXwNFtPKAULPbdixAry9BMXgbAdT1+RypipuQpmbRGdxuZ0qOwoU35ymE8DuKnBciTosV5I7iSzrDXaUSIRHlOynJWSeEYcAV23GNQaFgvZ/8Ad9XhawoEWLYlyNl7i4xPAwv+julhGrAiQJpDWSY= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 13:55:35 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72364 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: [OT]: Of Cats 'n Dogs On 1/28/07, Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > In my experience cats tend to be more pragmatic about such mundane matters. I'm not sure 'pragmatism' is the right term: As seen in a dog's diary: 7 am - Oh boy! A walk! My favourite! 8 am - Oh boy! Dog food! My favourite! 9 am - Oh boy! The kids! My favourite! Noon - Oh boy! The yard! My favourite! 2 PM - Oh boy! A car ride! My favourite! 3 PM - Oh boy! The kids! My favourite! 4 PM - Oh boy! Playing ball! My favourite! 6 PM - Oh boy! Welcome home Mom! My favourite! 7 PM - Oh boy! Welcome home Dad! My favourite! 8 PM - Oh boy! Dog food! My favourite! 9 PM - Oh boy! Tummy rubs on the couch! My favourite! 11 PM - Oh boy! Sleeping in my people's bed! My favourite! As seen in a cat's diary: Day 183 of my captivity... My captors continued to taunt me with bizarre little dangling objects. They dine lavishly on fresh meat, while I am forced to eat dry cereal. The only thing that keeps me going is the hope of escape, and the mild satisfaction that I get from clawing their furniture. Tomorrow I will eat another house plant. Today my attempt to kill my captors by weaving around their feet while they were walking almost succeeded - must try this at the top of the stairs. In an attempt to disgust and repulse these vile oppressors, I once again induced myself to vomit on their favourite chair. I must remember to try this on their bed. Decapitated a mouse and brought them the headless body in an attempt to make them aware of what I am capable of, and to try to strike fear in their hearts. They only cooed and condescended about what a good little cat I was. Hmmm, that did not work according to plan. There was some sort of gathering of their accomplices. I was placed in solitary throughout the event. However, I could hear the noise and smell the food. More important, I overheard that my confinement was due to my powers of inducing "allergies." I must learn what this is and how I may use it to my advantage. I am convinced the other captives are flunkies and maybe snitches. The dog is routinely released and seems more than happy to return. He is obviously a half-wit. The bird, on the other hand, has got to be an informant and speaks with them regularly. I am certain he reports my every move. Due to his current placement in the metal room, his safety is assured. But I have patience, I can wait, it is only a matter of time...... From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 11:34:05 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SJY01J016405; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 11:34:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SJXw1f016388; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 11:33:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 11:33:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=sf6r9WkrG4oYCGbCSuP6toD7aIrMO4400F4e2j1KTcq+vMivRIFDCjPulR9T6mJaNnBT0aK34PHWTIN6+Z3RyZ7jo2N48lUar70ErSjoqteMkkRDHPUbwQOm5PA33le8c/nsU7R6OeCm6SSu6t1hw9Syxdg4W7R2IowZi/etmX0= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 14:33:57 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: [OT]: Of Cats 'n Dogs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72365 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On 1/28/07, Terry Blanton wrote: > I'm not sure 'pragmatism' is the right term: Just remember, cats were once worshiped as gods . . . they have not forgotten this. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 11:34:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0SJYM9s019849; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 11:34:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0SJYKin019822; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 11:34:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 11:34:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 14:32:22 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: 1.6mhz and similar interest In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72366 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > Terry sez: > >>> And finally - so as to appease cat-lovers and PETA activists alike, the >>> "skin a cat" idiom is not to be taken literally: >> >> I took it quite literally after our Maine Coon Cat broke my wife's >> favorite serving dish. I found him on the kitchen island peering down >> at the broken dish and imagined him thinking, "I wonder where they put >> the super glue?" >> >> :-) >> >> Terry > > In my experience cats tend to be more pragmatic about such mundane matters. > > Under similar circumstances I would have imagined our own felines to have > said, "Well, that certainly made a loud noise. Oh, a human has just walked > into the kitchen. Are you going to feed us?" > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > > > Kids are the same way. But seriously, cats and dogs are as individualistic as people. They also grow and mature like people. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 16:54:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0T0sCY7012401; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 16:54:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0T0s9Je012379; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 16:54:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 16:54:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <07ab01c7433f$f9e1bd70$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <167609.62270.qm@web62403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 01:53:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0T0s5mc012362 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72367 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com I agree with all the interesting comments below, both Stephen's and yours, relative to the unavoidable antenna aspect of a coil, which makes it non purely inductive to some extent when current varies with time. However, may I remind you that my initial statement, which you deemed 100% incorrect, simply said that "keeping the current going" in an isolated non-resistive current loop would not consume energy. In which case i is constant in time, so the frequency f of the signal is zero, so the wavelength lambda = c/f is infinite, so the radiation resistance: Rr= 31171 * A^2/lambda^2 (with A the area of the circular loop) is zero. So the power Rr*i^2 consumed in Rr is zero too. This still doesn't make my loop consume energy. However this discussion on radiation makes me think there is indeed one thing I have overlooked and which will make my constant-current loop consume energy, it's synchrotron radiation. You know, that thing which should make electrons lose energy while orbiting their nucleus. I doubt it can be significant at the low speed of electrons in wires though. All this goes to show that there is more than meets the eye in a "simple" current loop. BTW, wrt your initial problem with the energy balance of aligning magnetic dipoles, title of this thread, if you object to the use of magnetic potential energy you could, equivalently, consider the work of the magnetic torque as your source of energy. It should be equal to the increase in kinetic energy plus any radiated energy to verify coe. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > [snip] > > However, there's something here that bugs > > me whenever I think about this stuff. > > > > Michel Jullian wrote: > > > >> Energy stored in a pure inductor is fully > recoverable actually > > > > Yes, of course, v = -L dI/dt and what goes in must > come out. > > > > But as someone mentioned, when you turn on the > power an EM wave travels > > out from the inductor at C, carrying energy. How's > that energy get back > > to the inductor again when we open the circuit? If > it doesn't, then > > that formula, v = -L dI/dt, must not be quite > correct. > > > The fundamental equation appears correct. What is > commonly misunderstood is that > electro-magnets cannot be purely inductive due to > radiation resistance. There's wire > resistance, and there's radiation resistance. > > > > > > Related issue: If the inductor is part of a > transformer the "other > > coil" absorbs energy and that doesn't come back out > (or, rather, it > > comes out the "other side" of the transformer). > But if we separate the > > primary and the secondary coils by significant > distance, the primary > > doesn't know for a long time that the secondary > absorbed some of the > > energy -- so how does it know it shouldn't give > back the full complement > > of energy to the power supply during the second > half of the cycle? > > > In such a case energy from the primary is radiated. > This causes radiation resistance on > the primary coil. It would be the goal of the > secondary to capture as much radiation as > possible. > > > > > > > This is particular interesting with regard to an > antenna, which seems > > like it's just a transformer with a lot of distance > between primary and > > secondary. An antenna is basically just an ideal > inductor, yet it > > radiates away power that doesn't come back out at > the terminals. > > > Radiation resistance. > > > > > > What's the difference between an antenna and a > simple coil, _aside_ from > > the fact that we "think about" an antenna as > broadcast device and a coil > > as an energy storage device? > > > As you know, coil designers try to eliminate as much > radiation resistance as possible. > Antennas are designed to do the opposite. Both have > inductance and radiation resistance. > > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Bored stiff? Loosen up... > Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. > http://games.yahoo.com/games/front > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 17:14:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0T1EOPN012342; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 17:14:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0T1ELcK012324; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 17:14:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 17:14:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <007e01c74342$cc286390$29027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 19:14:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72368 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Waveform Circuit Cries Foul R Stiffler wrote.. > Okay already, for the people that are giving me the bad name (again), here > is a wave form. Now I have labeled certain points, the rest is up to you > that can tell, where it is taking place, (not why, but where). > > www.stifflerscientific.com/images/avtrig4.j Howdy Ron, Madame Curie' avoided many on the problems associated with the internet by having a " closed society" lab in France. The good part was they could work " singularily" on a project. The bad part was they were isolated and developed tunnel vision and a siege mentality. Ah! the benefits of the internet in the science world.. a good mix of both science and crazies. Read between the lines.. Jones is encouraging you..let it stimulate that good mind of yours. Richard From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 18:16:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0T2GceL021588; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 18:16:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0T2GaCx021574; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 18:16:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 18:16:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=EyUh8edbm7TqmOf5bassQ2O+vgu2mmJSWplK+Fhww+GketYfM8J+UIIHol9sKXvucS6PeNqwJZ0nJZBUEqUXogzPGEmtn+UdDFPZz0g7S2eBpr1vZ/KiiONppQ6hGZnqjb/cwxrjWPNJRJMm17vgcVONXhU3Jhybdq7m9mN9noM=; X-YMail-OSG: wv7rM_kVM1mu4_0ExyfJ77mLAySNHnvltF4oHLSq_UcrsOx7uf522Epcisaj2Cbs1XqAho_r8arKqn9i96wvQkfpVlr9bFnQ0uHwOLAMCdhjjIaE8XDUATxCkwfpFLar3rzoTlofPzFWdx.eVt_VV75f Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 18:16:35 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <749602.25524.qm@web62415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72369 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: > I agree with all the interesting comments below, both Stephen's and yours, relative to the unavoidable antenna aspect of a coil, which makes it non purely inductive to some extent when current varies with time. > > However, may I remind you that my initial statement, which you deemed 100% incorrect, simply said that "keeping the current going" in an isolated non-resistive current loop would not consume energy. > In which case i is constant in time, so the frequency f of the signal is zero, so the wavelength lambda = c/f is infinite, so the radiation resistance: > > Rr= 31171 * A^2/lambda^2 (with A the area of the circular loop) is zero. > > So the power Rr*i^2 consumed in Rr is zero too. This still doesn't make my loop consume energy. Your Quote, --- "You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, true but that's only because the wires are resistive. A non-resistive current-loop would not consume any energy to keep the current going." --- LOL ... this is hopeless. Again --> You state the only consumed energy in an electro-magnetic is because the wires are resistive. Besides the fact you missed other factors such as radiation resistance lets focus on the fact that a magnet attracted and accelerating toward the wire resistive current loop would *indeed* induce an opposing voltage, which would consume energy. The gained KE comes from the wire resistive current loop. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 28 23:34:12 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0T7Y5KW009442; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:34:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0T7Y3U9009434; Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:34:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:34:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <07d201c74377$d7ff7200$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <749602.25524.qm@web62415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:33:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0T7Y1iN009415 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72370 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Your new experiment (attraction rather than alignment) simplifies things somehow (no torque, just linear acceleration), but let's stick to the non-wire-resistive loop shall we, it makes things simpler, and closer to the electron orbit or spin counterpart you are comparing it to. 1/ Using an external current source, let's start a constant current through the loop. 2/ Zero wire resistance, zero radiation resistance, constant current so zero auto-induced voltage -L*di/dt, so zero voltage drop. This means we can connect the loop back on itself and remove the current source without stopping the current ok? Let's do that, so that loop voltage will remain zero for ever, and define this as time zero for the energy balance. 3/ Now let's release the magnet. It should indeed be attracted and accelerated towards the short-circuited current loop so KE will be gained, but how could the energy be drawn from the loop if voltage is zero? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:16 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > > I agree with all the interesting comments below, > both Stephen's and yours, relative to > the unavoidable antenna aspect of a coil, which makes > it non purely inductive to some > extent when current varies with time. > > > > However, may I remind you that my initial > statement, which you deemed 100% incorrect, > simply said that "keeping the current going" in an > isolated non-resistive current loop > would not consume energy. > > In which case i is constant in time, so the > frequency f of the signal is zero, so the > wavelength lambda = c/f is infinite, so the radiation > resistance: > > > > Rr= 31171 * A^2/lambda^2 (with A the area of the > circular loop) is zero. > > > > So the power Rr*i^2 consumed in Rr is zero too. > This still doesn't make my loop consume > energy. > > > > Your Quote, > --- > "You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, > true but that's only because the wires > are resistive. A non-resistive current-loop would not > consume any energy to keep the > current going." > --- > > > LOL ... this is hopeless. Again --> You state the > only consumed energy in an > electro-magnetic is because the wires are resistive. > Besides the fact you missed other > factors such as radiation resistance lets focus on the > fact that a magnet attracted and > accelerating toward the wire resistive current loop > would *indeed* induce an opposing > voltage, which would consume energy. The gained KE > comes from the wire resistive current loop. > > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 00:45:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0T8jH8g006528; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 00:45:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0T8jGRY006516; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 00:45:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 00:45:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <07f501c74381$cb7da600$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-22007162717151573@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:44:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0T8jEKD006497 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72371 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Keep us tuned, but I somehow doubt that the fact of not pulling the charge from earth ground will make much difference, as surely the charge your VDG sphere can store must be negligible compared to the reported "0.5 to 1.0 MegaCoulombs excess negative charge of the earth", have you worked it out? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics > Michel Jullian wrote. >> >> To: >> Date: 1/27/2007 9:56:21 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics >> >> Mmm if it has no net charge (not sure what you mean by "wrt earth ground" > BTW, "no net charge" is absolute, zero Coulomb, unlike voltage which may be > what you meant), why do you expect a force wrt a charged body? >> > What I mean by no net charge, is not pulling any charge from earth ground > which results > in an attractive image charge, but using the VDG to charge an outer sphere > or cylinder, wrt the inner one, thus putting an induced surface charge on > the outer conductor exterior, > or possibly more using a semiconductor or dielectric material outer > "shell". > This should interact with the excess charge of the earth the same as > external; > charges coming from the sun or the cosmos. Also there should be an "ion > collecting" > effect on the outer shell, about like the corrosion of the positive > terminal of a car battery. > > If perchance you make it to outer space without setting off a Jovian > Thunderbolt, > you can use the "vacuumed" ions for added propulsion. :-) > > Fred >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Frederick Sparber" >> To: "vortex-l" >> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 4:43 PM >> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics >> >> >> > >> > Oops, make that the reported "0.5 to 1.0 MegaCoulombs excess negative >> > charge of the earth". >> > >> > I gather it's split between the surface and the positive charge of the >> > ionosphere. >> > >> > Fred >> > >> >> [Original Message] >> >> From: Frederick Sparber >> >> To: >> >> Date: 1/27/2007 8:17:14 AM >> >> Subject: RE: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics >> >> >> >> Michel Jullian wrote. >> >> > >> >> > Nice experiment Fred! Wrt the weight changes, it behaves > qualitatively >> > as >> >> expected doesn't it? >> >> > >> >> Thanks. Yes the "leakage" around the room and ion wind is pronounced > too. >> >> > >> >> > Did the discharge hurt a lot? >> >> > >> >> No, just startles you. >> >> I'm practicing with it so I can see if the VDG can pump charge between >> >> an inner chamber and an outer shell of a "lifter/spacecraft" with >> >> putatively no >> >> net charge wrt earth ground, to see if it will exert a force on the >> > reported >> >> "0.5 to 1.0 megajoule excess negative charge of the earth". >> >> >> >> Fred >> >> >> >> > >> >> > Michel >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Frederick Sparber" >> >> > To: >> >> > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 1:29 PM >> >> > Subject: [Vo]: Re Van de Graaf Antics >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >A recently acquired Acculab VIC 10KG digital scale (10,100 grams) >> >> > > with +/- 1.0 gram resolution and a Science First >> >> > > model 10-060 (200 KV) Van de Graaff generator which specifies >> >> > > a "Positively Charged Sphere", with a how it works explanation, >> >> > > makes for some interesting endeavors. >> >> > > >> >> > > Setting the VDG on the scale (sitting on a throw rug on a carpeted >> >> floor) >> >> > > shows a weight of 1509 grams. >> >> > > When the VDG is running the weight increases to 1512 grams, and > when >> >> > > a ~ 2 ft square aluminum sheet is held flat about 4 inches above > the >> >> globe >> >> > > the reading drops to 1490 grams until it sparks through me and goes >> >> back up >> >> > > to 1511 grams. It seems like the whole room is electrified along > with >> >> > > the smell of ozone. >> >> > > >> >> > > I had planned set it on the scale with it sitting atop an aluminum >> > foil >> >> sheet laying >> >> > > on a 3 inch thick Styrofoam plank and using a bank of D batteries >> >> > > feeding an inverter feeding the scale and VDG >> >> > > so it can "pump" electrons between the globe and the >> >> > > foil so that there wouldn't' be any net charge on the setup wrt >> > ground, >> >> > > and watching for weight change when a grounded sheet of >> >> > > aluminum foil is held above the globe. However... suggestions??? >> >> > > >> >> > > Fred >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 01:05:08 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0T94tXb009991; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 01:04:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0T94qc3009976; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 01:04:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 01:04:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <080301c74384$899b0310$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45B4E6A7.4090408@pacbell.net> <700dr2tibm899oe14hjujcgs30j4ds28nh@4ax.com> <062301c74214$b8082870$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:04:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0T94pko009952 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72372 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Interesting, can you provide the exact formula, and what are the absolute dielectric constant and the breakdown voltage strength (max V/m) for barium titanate? Indeed atmospheric ingress can be an important factor, since the material seems to be a porous ceramic. The size of the pores, and the nature of the gas filling the pores could well be what determines the max V/m! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 11:35 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery > In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:11:55 +0100: > Hi, > [snip] >>Unless the coatings diminish the material's permeability to some atmospheric gases lowering it's breakdown voltage? >> >>Michel > > I would think that insulation from the atmosphere would be more cheaply and > easily obtained with a plastic sealant. > BTW there is no real reason to operate at such high voltages. By making the > dielectric material in the capacitor thinner, the capacitance per unit area is > increased, and also the total number of plates in a given volume can be > increased. Both of these together compensate for the drop in voltage, so in fact > any desired operating voltage can be accommodated. It turns out that the maximum > *energy density* of the device (J/m^3) is purely a function of the material used > as dielectric in the capacitor, and is proportional to the product of the > absolute dielectric constant of the material and the square of breakdown voltage > strength of the material (V/m)^2. > >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >>To: >>Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:50 PM >>Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery >> >> > [snip] >>> The EEStor patent is US7033406 which I believe contains a design flaw. >>> They state that the base material (Barium Titanate) is coated with Aluminum >>> Oxide and Calcium Magnesium Aluminosilicate, which coatings are intended to >>> increase the breakdown voltage of the composite. They then go on to calculate >>> the energy density based upon this increased breakdown voltage. >>> >>> However IMO, what happens in reality is that a high voltage drop will occur >>> across the high breakdown voltage component, and a lesser voltage drop across >>> the Barium Titanate. IOW with such a composite construction, one can't simply >>> apply the full voltage to the entire material for the purposes of calculating >>> the energy density of the whole. The real energy density of any given material >>> is actually a constant, and no "trick" of design is going to get around that. >>> Since they specify that the breakdown voltage of Barium Titanate itself is only >>> 60% of that of the other materials, and since voltage appears squared in the >>> formula, the real energy density of the finished product is IMO going to be >>> nearer 60%^2 = 36% of their claimed energy density, which would be about 3 times >>> the energy density of lead-acid batteries. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Robin van Spaandonk > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 02:10:52 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TAAlft003371; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 02:10:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TAAjSP003353; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 02:10:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 02:10:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0e4501c7438d$bda0cbf0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:10:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0TAAhiu003330 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72373 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Renewable energy powered computer http://www.laptop.org/laptop/hardware/highlights.shtml Beautiful :) -- Michel From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 02:45:49 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TAjftL017122; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 02:45:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TAjeQt017107; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 02:45:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 02:45:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=WYHeWZhD1UpoP+OPBzUVF+fhqbdsUlWT6+4bekmAFM6U6uIGcsYjc6o+KLg1VPIVEcMet1slL2JOQUgVuhul/ZRZA4PWep/ph9+xCmrcL0MgNkKODA8b4DcumL48khmGUbSMJvZsFjvb0nWXGgfbfZniknkB2XTVbb4g0vxdliw= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:45:38 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Easy Unidirectional Force, get out your calculators... 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Mon, 29 Jan 2007 03:11:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TBBV2W030980; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 03:11:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 03:11:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:11:23 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8ngrr2plaelg3fnem33m7hbuqfs4cqirm6@4ax.com> References: <45B4E6A7.4090408@pacbell.net> <700dr2tibm899oe14hjujcgs30j4ds28nh@4ax.com> <062301c74214$b8082870$3800a8c0@zothan> <080301c74384$899b0310$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <080301c74384$899b0310$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta01sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:11:28 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0TBBSao030959 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72375 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:04:52 +0100: Hi, [snip] >Interesting, can you provide the exact formula, and what are the absolute dielectric constant and the breakdown voltage strength (max V/m) for barium titanate? The exact formula is derived from the capacitance formulas for a flat plate capacitor, and the energy stored in a capacitor. The energy density works out to 1/2 x epsilon x (breakdown voltage/unit distance)^2. (This assumes that the absolute breakdown voltage is linear with thickness, which is the best case scenario according to http://www.wrightcap.com/ceramic-capacitors-material-spec.html . For Barium titanate I find figures of dielectric strength = 34 kV/cm and dielectric constant of 7200 @ http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/jecr/2005/00000015/00000002/00001460 which yields an energy density of 368 J/L. The EEStor crowd claim to have material with a dielectric constant of 18000 (according to recent news IIRC), and from the patent: "These coating materials have exceptional high voltage breakdown and when coated onto the above material will increase the breakdown voltage of ceramics comprised of the coated particles from 3.times.10.sup.6 V/cm of the uncoated basis material to around 5.times.10.sup.6 V/cm or higher." So for the uncoated basis material they claim 3E6 V/cm (about 100 times higher than from the other report here above - if I read correctly ?!? - I suspect this should be 3E6 V/m). Thus we get two different energy densities, depending on whether or not there is a typo. 1) 7.17 MJ/L 2) 717 J/L Somehow, I suspect the latter is more likely to be correct. BTW they actually claim a breakdown strength of "5E6 V/cm", for their composite design, so once again assuming this should be 5E6 V/m we would get a purported energy density of 1992 J/L, or 19.92 MJ/L if the voltage claim is correct. BTW I seem to remember them claiming 52 kWh for a 100 lb device. If we assume a density of 2.7 gm/mL (about average for ceramics) then this works out to 11 MJ/L (not too far removed from (1) here above), so it seems they have either discovered a substance with a breakdown voltage strength a hundred times higher than air, or they have fallen victim to their own typo. BTW2 Try calculating the energy density of an electrolytic cap. for the fun of it. :) In short, I think I would be betting on the Li ion batteries. ;) >Indeed atmospheric ingress can be an important factor, since the material seems to be a porous ceramic. The size of the pores, and the nature of the gas filling the pores could well be what determines the max V/m! > >Michel > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 11:35 PM >Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery > > >> In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:11:55 +0100: >> Hi, >> [snip] >>>Unless the coatings diminish the material's permeability to some atmospheric gases lowering it's breakdown voltage? >>> >>>Michel >> >> I would think that insulation from the atmosphere would be more cheaply and >> easily obtained with a plastic sealant. >> BTW there is no real reason to operate at such high voltages. By making the >> dielectric material in the capacitor thinner, the capacitance per unit area is >> increased, and also the total number of plates in a given volume can be >> increased. Both of these together compensate for the drop in voltage, so in fact >> any desired operating voltage can be accommodated. It turns out that the maximum >> *energy density* of the device (J/m^3) is purely a function of the material used >> as dielectric in the capacitor, and is proportional to the product of the >> absolute dielectric constant of the material and the square of breakdown voltage >> strength of the material (V/m)^2. >> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >>>To: >>>Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:50 PM >>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery >>> >>> >> [snip] >>>> The EEStor patent is US7033406 which I believe contains a design flaw. >>>> They state that the base material (Barium Titanate) is coated with Aluminum >>>> Oxide and Calcium Magnesium Aluminosilicate, which coatings are intended to >>>> increase the breakdown voltage of the composite. They then go on to calculate >>>> the energy density based upon this increased breakdown voltage. >>>> >>>> However IMO, what happens in reality is that a high voltage drop will occur >>>> across the high breakdown voltage component, and a lesser voltage drop across >>>> the Barium Titanate. IOW with such a composite construction, one can't simply >>>> apply the full voltage to the entire material for the purposes of calculating >>>> the energy density of the whole. The real energy density of any given material >>>> is actually a constant, and no "trick" of design is going to get around that. >>>> Since they specify that the breakdown voltage of Barium Titanate itself is only >>>> 60% of that of the other materials, and since voltage appears squared in the >>>> formula, the real energy density of the finished product is IMO going to be >>>> nearer 60%^2 = 36% of their claimed energy density, which would be about 3 times >>>> the energy density of lead-acid batteries. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Robin van Spaandonk >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> >> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> >> Competition provides the motivation, >> Cooperation provides the means. >> Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 04:13:21 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TCClq0021984; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 04:12:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TCCi0p021959; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 04:12:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 04:12:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NgDXd1YgzWP6on/PID4xlH6E0FtGwsyU382ntblcKlQG7hScDwI8waCOPD3QYcvOXlheq0hHZFzloK/hsCLDud2B0eYkTG0WCUNummlliqv8BwK/0nalyb7TcLyEDKCr5gzrm2P55wpekhyF2369jpuMJ6NqpNhfM2UqS+unk4o= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:12:42 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Renewable energy powered computer In-Reply-To: <0e4501c7438d$bda0cbf0$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <0e4501c7438d$bda0cbf0$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72376 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On 1/29/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > http://www.laptop.org/laptop/hardware/highlights.shtml > Beautiful :) Automatic peer-to-peer wireless connectivity? Virii will spread faster than AIDS. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 05:02:29 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TD2OKV003977; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 05:02:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TD2JP8003952; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 05:02:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 05:02:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Ojy/PfL2XtypY5YvQDMbOlvY+03BwDZ/N0HEunOFWEdF3Uaxkl5jFnBXaSkR5hWkPt5nS9G+RqH5/HmtouIjoAnveQoVDWLPcmpw5lYIyuz123ufDYd3tlgMDB8dVTa8cdPqxP8WucVfKHonUQ+Vczb43Ky2OceyZ6U1OHjtzXw= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 02:02:17 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-Reply-To: <07d201c74377$d7ff7200$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14266_19041727.1170075737991" References: <749602.25524.qm@web62415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <07d201c74377$d7ff7200$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72377 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ------=_Part_14266_19041727.1170075737991 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The magnet moving towards the loop will induce the opposite voltage in the loop, as .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 volts induced in the opposite direction is enough to reverse the current direction in the SC loop the magnet will basically not be attracted at all. Except of course for the fact that this would collapse the magnetic field of the loop, so this helps keep the current flowing. So what will occur is a hand off, the voltage induced by the magnet will be equal to the voltage induced by the collapsing magnetic field, so the magnetic field is slowly collapsed, there is no more current in the loop and the magnet has gained KE. Where did this come from? Simply the energy you put into the loop to establish the magnetic field. (It might be a superconductor so it takes no energy to maintain a magnetic field but it does take energy to establish one) In this case energy is conserved, and energy is always conserved unless you use the aether, space time to change the rules. On 1/29/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > Your new experiment (attraction rather than alignment) simplifies things > somehow (no torque, just linear acceleration), but let's stick to the > non-wire-resistive loop shall we, it makes things simpler, and closer to the > electron orbit or spin counterpart you are comparing it to. > > 1/ Using an external current source, let's start a constant current > through the loop. > > 2/ Zero wire resistance, zero radiation resistance, constant current so > zero auto-induced voltage -L*di/dt, so zero voltage drop. This means we can > connect the loop back on itself and remove the current source without > stopping the current ok? Let's do that, so that loop voltage will remain > zero for ever, and define this as time zero for the energy balance. > > 3/ Now let's release the magnet. It should indeed be attracted and > accelerated towards the short-circuited current loop so KE will be gained, > but how could the energy be drawn from the loop if voltage is zero? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:16 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > > > Michel Jullian wrote: > > > I agree with all the interesting comments below, > > both Stephen's and yours, relative to > > the unavoidable antenna aspect of a coil, which makes > > it non purely inductive to some > > extent when current varies with time. > > > > > > However, may I remind you that my initial > > statement, which you deemed 100% incorrect, > > simply said that "keeping the current going" in an > > isolated non-resistive current loop > > would not consume energy. > > > In which case i is constant in time, so the > > frequency f of the signal is zero, so the > > wavelength lambda = c/f is infinite, so the radiation > > resistance: > > > > > > Rr= 31171 * A^2/lambda^2 (with A the area of the > > circular loop) is zero. > > > > > > So the power Rr*i^2 consumed in Rr is zero too. > > This still doesn't make my loop consume > > energy. > > > > > > > > Your Quote, > > --- > > "You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, > > true but that's only because the wires > > are resistive. A non-resistive current-loop would not > > consume any energy to keep the > > current going." > > --- > > > > > > LOL ... this is hopeless. Again --> You state the > > only consumed energy in an > > electro-magnetic is because the wires are resistive. > > Besides the fact you missed other > > factors such as radiation resistance lets focus on the > > fact that a magnet attracted and > > accelerating toward the wire resistive current loop > > would *indeed* induce an opposing > > voltage, which would consume energy. The gained KE > > comes from the wire resistive current loop. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > Paul Lowrance > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. > > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html > > > > ------=_Part_14266_19041727.1170075737991 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The magnet moving towards the loop will induce the opposite voltage in the loop, as .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 volts induced in the opposite direction is enough to reverse the current direction in the SC loop the magnet will basically not be attracted at all.
Except of course for the fact that this would collapse the magnetic field of the loop, so this helps keep the current flowing.

So what will occur is a hand off, the voltage induced by the magnet will be equal to the voltage induced by the collapsing magnetic field, so the magnetic field is slowly collapsed, there is no more current in the loop and the magnet has gained KE.

Where did this come from? Simply the energy you put into the loop to establish the magnetic field. (It might be a superconductor so it takes no energy to maintain a magnetic field but it does take energy to establish one)

In this case energy is conserved, and energy is always conserved unless you use the aether, space time to change the rules.


On 1/29/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
Your new experiment (attraction rather than alignment) simplifies things somehow (no torque, just linear acceleration), but let's stick to the non-wire-resistive loop shall we, it makes things simpler, and closer to the electron orbit or spin counterpart you are comparing it to.

1/ Using an external current source, let's start a constant current through the loop.

2/ Zero wire resistance, zero radiation resistance, constant current so zero auto-induced voltage -L*di/dt, so zero voltage drop. This means we can connect the loop back on itself and remove the current source without stopping the current ok? Let's do that, so that loop voltage will remain zero for ever, and define this as time zero for the energy balance.

3/ Now let's release the magnet. It should indeed be attracted and accelerated towards the short-circuited current loop so KE will be gained, but how could the energy be drawn from the loop if voltage is zero?

Michel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul" <softwarelabus@yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com >
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics


> Michel Jullian wrote:
> > I agree with all the interesting comments below,
> both Stephen's and yours, relative to
> the unavoidable antenna aspect of a coil, which makes
> it non purely inductive to some
> extent when current varies with time.
> >
> > However, may I remind you that my initial
> statement, which you deemed 100% incorrect,
> simply said that "keeping the current going" in an
> isolated non-resistive current loop
> would not consume energy.
> > In which case i is constant in time, so the
> frequency f of the signal is zero, so the
> wavelength lambda = c/f is infinite, so the radiation
> resistance:
> >
> > Rr= 31171 * A^2/lambda^2  (with A the area of the
> circular loop) is zero.
> >
> > So the power Rr*i^2 consumed in Rr is zero too.
> This still doesn't make my loop consume
> energy.
>
>
>
> Your Quote,
> ---
> "You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy,
> true but that's only because the wires
> are resistive. A non-resistive current-loop would not
> consume any energy to keep the
> current going."
> ---
>
>
> LOL ... this is hopeless. Again -->  You state the
> only consumed energy in an
> electro-magnetic is because the wires are resistive.
> Besides the fact you missed other
> factors such as radiation resistance lets focus on the
> fact that a magnet attracted and
> accelerating toward the wire resistive current loop
> would *indeed* induce an opposing
> voltage, which would consume energy. The gained KE
> comes from the wire resistive current loop.
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
> Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html
>


------=_Part_14266_19041727.1170075737991-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 07:49:53 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TFnh3S019582; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:49:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TFnfSB019562; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:49:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:49:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0eab01c743bd$154ac4d0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <749602.25524.qm@web62415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <07d201c74377$d7ff7200$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:49:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0TFncXi019523 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72378 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com > Where did this [kinetic energy] come from? Simply the energy you put into the loop to > establish the magnetic field. I don't know, do we have to put energy into a positive charge so that it gets attracted to a negative charge? (we must not forget that the magnetic force from a moving charged particle is purely electric in that particle's rest frame) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > The magnet moving towards the loop will induce the opposite voltage in the > loop, as .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 volts > induced in the opposite direction is enough to reverse the current direction > in the SC loop the magnet will basically not be attracted at all. > Except of course for the fact that this would collapse the magnetic field of > the loop, so this helps keep the current flowing. > > So what will occur is a hand off, the voltage induced by the magnet will be > equal to the voltage induced by the collapsing magnetic field, so the > magnetic field is slowly collapsed, there is no more current in the loop and > the magnet has gained KE. > > Where did this come from? Simply the energy you put into the loop to > establish the magnetic field. (It might be a superconductor so it takes no > energy to maintain a magnetic field but it does take energy to establish > one) > > In this case energy is conserved, and energy is always conserved unless you > use the aether, space time to change the rules. > > > On 1/29/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> Your new experiment (attraction rather than alignment) simplifies things >> somehow (no torque, just linear acceleration), but let's stick to the >> non-wire-resistive loop shall we, it makes things simpler, and closer to the >> electron orbit or spin counterpart you are comparing it to. >> >> 1/ Using an external current source, let's start a constant current >> through the loop. >> >> 2/ Zero wire resistance, zero radiation resistance, constant current so >> zero auto-induced voltage -L*di/dt, so zero voltage drop. This means we can >> connect the loop back on itself and remove the current source without >> stopping the current ok? Let's do that, so that loop voltage will remain >> zero for ever, and define this as time zero for the energy balance. >> >> 3/ Now let's release the magnet. It should indeed be attracted and >> accelerated towards the short-circuited current loop so KE will be gained, >> but how could the energy be drawn from the loop if voltage is zero? >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Paul" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:16 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics >> >> >> > Michel Jullian wrote: >> > > I agree with all the interesting comments below, >> > both Stephen's and yours, relative to >> > the unavoidable antenna aspect of a coil, which makes >> > it non purely inductive to some >> > extent when current varies with time. >> > > >> > > However, may I remind you that my initial >> > statement, which you deemed 100% incorrect, >> > simply said that "keeping the current going" in an >> > isolated non-resistive current loop >> > would not consume energy. >> > > In which case i is constant in time, so the >> > frequency f of the signal is zero, so the >> > wavelength lambda = c/f is infinite, so the radiation >> > resistance: >> > > >> > > Rr= 31171 * A^2/lambda^2 (with A the area of the >> > circular loop) is zero. >> > > >> > > So the power Rr*i^2 consumed in Rr is zero too. >> > This still doesn't make my loop consume >> > energy. >> > >> > >> > >> > Your Quote, >> > --- >> > "You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, >> > true but that's only because the wires >> > are resistive. A non-resistive current-loop would not >> > consume any energy to keep the >> > current going." >> > --- >> > >> > >> > LOL ... this is hopeless. Again --> You state the >> > only consumed energy in an >> > electro-magnetic is because the wires are resistive. >> > Besides the fact you missed other >> > factors such as radiation resistance lets focus on the >> > fact that a magnet attracted and >> > accelerating toward the wire resistive current loop >> > would *indeed* induce an opposing >> > voltage, which would consume energy. The gained KE >> > comes from the wire resistive current loop. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Regards, >> > Paul Lowrance >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ____________________________________________________________________________________ >> > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. >> > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. >> > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html >> > >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 07:55:52 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TFtkZR015306; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:55:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TFtfOK015280; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:55:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:55:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=1iTln3SXYTmQVhoJ2nln04+pl66ecCpDkyLG0yXeTO++eXSvY2WeSgbVr8QgPtizmsqhhX7wGncF/6MSF5gbI1grTuCa/zMC/+++Dd3id8WHONK1hdK99gZPPBNTnzvlq49eBhbpAwDpULJnQgJJp5MckTNDKyMpTdKeLCIRZ1I=; X-YMail-OSG: wvpUv5MVM1nQCLZcNJo_orFrrxD685NkirD7aG5n6fZUwcySin2cDv3lqXLh.BF5UhW6xXan3SGsRvGWU6hPy6iE6yDcOwl6_TONxQld.NN00T6HTkX980Jzy1G7Nc.nYm54Dd1Kw8joH3Fqn6WmIMSS Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:55:39 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <868592.39659.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72379 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: > Your new experiment (attraction rather than alignment) simplifies things somehow (no torque, just linear acceleration), but let's stick to the non-wire-resistive loop shall we, it makes things simpler, and closer to the electron orbit or spin counterpart you are comparing it to. > > 1/ Using an external current source, let's start a constant current through the loop. > > 2/ Zero wire resistance, zero radiation resistance, I would question that such a thing is even theoretically possible for an electro-magnet. Perhaps it is possible in another reality where light travels instantly and hence no far field. Or perhaps if the electro-magnets entire closed loop is a 1-dimensional point, but how do you have a closed "loop" with zero length. At best it could be another reality, but not our reality. > constant current so zero auto-induced voltage -L*di/dt, so zero voltage drop. This means we can connect the loop back on itself and remove the current source without stopping the current ok? Let's do that, so that loop voltage will remain zero for ever, and define this as time zero for the energy balance. > > 3/ Now let's release the magnet. It should indeed be attracted and accelerated towards the short-circuited current loop so KE will be gained, but how could the energy be drawn from the loop if voltage is zero? Michel, for the most part the amount of energy contained in the current loop depends on its inductance and current. That is what maintains the current. The current decay depends on resistance, which you say is zero (no wire or radiation resistance). So in your example the current would remain constant if left alone. There are other minor factors, but by far that's the main factor. As the magnet accelerates (angularly or linearly) to the current loop it produces an opposing voltage in such current loop, which decreases the current loops current. During that span of time such opposing voltage is "resistance" on the current loop, as indeed it removes energy from the current loop. If the two objects continue to accelerate long enough then the current loops current will decay to zero amps. In such a case the two objects are no longer magnetically attracted, but they will continue to move depending how much momentum is left, which will generate negative current in the current loop. This will cause the two objects to repel, and you end up with two objects oscillating back and forth *until* the energy is dissipated, which will happen. During each oscillation the electro-magnet could use such gain KE from the current loop as it so desires. It could store such energy in a battery for example, in which case the two objects would quickly slow down until all the energy is removed from the current loop. The longest the two objects could oscillate would depend how much energy is radiated simply from the two objects moving in space. A moving magnetic field generates radiation. So as you can see, energy is indeed moved from one source to the next at the moment it is required. No magical PE required. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 08:08:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TG7pEg003255; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:07:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TG7lnp003226; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:07:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:07:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0eba01c743bf$9d2aa260$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <868592.39659.qm@web62412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 17:07:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0TG7iQ9003204 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72380 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com How can you produce an opposing voltage in a _closed_ non-resistive current loop? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > > Your new experiment (attraction rather than > alignment) simplifies things somehow (no > torque, just linear acceleration), but let's stick to > the non-wire-resistive loop shall > we, it makes things simpler, and closer to the > electron orbit or spin counterpart you are > comparing it to. > > > > 1/ Using an external current source, let's start a > constant current through the loop. > > > > 2/ Zero wire resistance, zero radiation resistance, > > > > I would question that such a thing is even > theoretically possible for an electro-magnet. > Perhaps it is possible in another reality where light > travels instantly and hence no far > field. Or perhaps if the electro-magnets entire closed > loop is a 1-dimensional point, but > how do you have a closed "loop" with zero length. At > best it could be another reality, > but not our reality. > > > > > constant current so zero auto-induced voltage > -L*di/dt, so zero voltage drop. This > means we can connect the loop back on itself and > remove the current source without > stopping the current ok? Let's do that, so that loop > voltage will remain zero for ever, > and define this as time zero for the energy balance. > > > > 3/ Now let's release the magnet. It should indeed > be attracted and accelerated towards > the short-circuited current loop so KE will be gained, > but how could the energy be drawn > from the loop if voltage is zero? > > > Michel, for the most part the amount of energy > contained in the current loop depends on > its inductance and current. That is what maintains the > current. The current decay depends > on resistance, which you say is zero (no wire or > radiation resistance). So in your example > the current would remain constant if left alone. > There are other minor factors, but by > far that's the main factor. > > As the magnet accelerates (angularly or linearly) to > the current loop it produces an > opposing voltage in such current loop, which decreases > the current loops current. During > that span of time such opposing voltage is > "resistance" on the current loop, as indeed it > removes energy from the current loop. > > If the two objects continue to accelerate long enough > then the current loops current will > decay to zero amps. In such a case the two objects are > no longer magnetically attracted, > but they will continue to move depending how much > momentum is left, which will generate > negative current in the current loop. This will cause > the two objects to repel, and you > end up with two objects oscillating back and forth > *until* the energy is dissipated, which > will happen. > > During each oscillation the electro-magnet could use > such gain KE from the current loop as > it so desires. It could store such energy in a battery > for example, in which case the two > objects would quickly slow down until all the energy > is removed from the current loop. > The longest the two objects could oscillate would > depend how much energy is radiated > simply from the two objects moving in space. A moving > magnetic field generates radiation. > > > So as you can see, energy is indeed moved from one > source to the next at the moment it is > required. No magical PE required. :-) > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 08:08:18 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TG8BuN019802; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:08:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TG89P6019784; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:08:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:08:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=P0r5GgH3yq19AR5tgydQcLwyGg6EkbrMcDEx1ilQXmuXKToaXAwVUENiQIwOo8o1; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: "Vortex" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:07:56 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c26095c048201ad9bef8976a9c25a496f5b40350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72381 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Resonant Field Line Oscillations 1.6Mhz A very interesting paper by two groups, Department of Physics, University of Newcastle and Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of Leicester. For those that might have the slightest interest.. www.ips.gov.au/IPSHosted/STSP/meetings/aip/fred/fred.htm From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 08:52:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TGpplo012738; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:51:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TGpoAK012727; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:51:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:51:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=oHl7IrrIo1TlEs0LWNWqwvHMlPJJLxjGukNyzdUOX43YeUDnhqjFeoto9Fyl6vHSHqJYFt8w470h8J5Jx4D1mJRsgkTshVVoyvwau9ItqOVfqRtMzWOJynEbQCBX7B99A570Ik6kU/2EULLfhHFC7JR+t87BaPjgrtN4iX0e1/o=; X-YMail-OSG: DUA1Qb4VM1lAHl7C5vsxtk0I8gPtSjbulhwKpOpFHSwNehl2VPwMeAtRMZ5mWrRorDJcV0lzQgaseQg.n0z48Se0ien8xLYzIy3DqJrD3G70mXLnR8OAF6cWwQMANV86759vuIAMHwrw98vQxj26HibG Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:51:48 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <710032.59142.qm@web62406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72382 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: > How can you produce an opposing voltage in a _closed_ non-resistive current loop? Michel, lol, you are tying yourself up in a knot something terrible. A current loop is not closed. It seems you understood this, "It should indeed be attracted and accelerated towards the short-circuited current loop so KE will be gained" If the electro-magnet is magnetically attracted to the current loop then the current loop is an open magnetic field, surprise. This is too funny, a current loop by itself is not closed. If you are talking about a toroid, where the magnetic field is closed then there will be no magnetic attraction. This is getting silly. Perhaps someone is simply trying to waste my research time. Heavens forbid, we wouldn't want someone giving the world "free energy." That could temporarily cause world chaos economically and result in a beautiful and stabilized system. Regards, Paul Lowrance > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> Your new experiment (attraction rather than >> alignment) simplifies things somehow (no >> torque, just linear acceleration), but let's stick to >> the non-wire-resistive loop shall >> we, it makes things simpler, and closer to the >> electron orbit or spin counterpart you are >> comparing it to. >>> 1/ Using an external current source, let's start a >> constant current through the loop. >>> 2/ Zero wire resistance, zero radiation resistance, >> >> >> I would question that such a thing is even >> theoretically possible for an electro-magnet. >> Perhaps it is possible in another reality where light >> travels instantly and hence no far >> field. Or perhaps if the electro-magnets entire closed >> loop is a 1-dimensional point, but >> how do you have a closed "loop" with zero length. At >> best it could be another reality, >> but not our reality. >> >> >> >>> constant current so zero auto-induced voltage >> -L*di/dt, so zero voltage drop. This >> means we can connect the loop back on itself and >> remove the current source without >> stopping the current ok? Let's do that, so that loop >> voltage will remain zero for ever, >> and define this as time zero for the energy balance. >>> 3/ Now let's release the magnet. It should indeed >> be attracted and accelerated towards >> the short-circuited current loop so KE will be gained, >> but how could the energy be drawn >> from the loop if voltage is zero? >> >> >> Michel, for the most part the amount of energy >> contained in the current loop depends on >> its inductance and current. That is what maintains the >> current. The current decay depends >> on resistance, which you say is zero (no wire or >> radiation resistance). So in your example >> the current would remain constant if left alone. >> There are other minor factors, but by >> far that's the main factor. >> >> As the magnet accelerates (angularly or linearly) to >> the current loop it produces an >> opposing voltage in such current loop, which decreases >> the current loops current. During >> that span of time such opposing voltage is >> "resistance" on the current loop, as indeed it >> removes energy from the current loop. >> >> If the two objects continue to accelerate long enough >> then the current loops current will >> decay to zero amps. In such a case the two objects are >> no longer magnetically attracted, >> but they will continue to move depending how much >> momentum is left, which will generate >> negative current in the current loop. This will cause >> the two objects to repel, and you >> end up with two objects oscillating back and forth >> *until* the energy is dissipated, which >> will happen. >> >> During each oscillation the electro-magnet could use >> such gain KE from the current loop as >> it so desires. It could store such energy in a battery >> for example, in which case the two >> objects would quickly slow down until all the energy >> is removed from the current loop. >> The longest the two objects could oscillate would >> depend how much energy is radiated >> simply from the two objects moving in space. A moving >> magnetic field generates radiation. >> >> >> So as you can see, energy is indeed moved from one >> source to the next at the moment it is >> required. No magical PE required. :-) >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 08:58:47 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TGweeg015777; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:58:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TGwYUi015719; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:58:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:58:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=xq/sSGjDjEYXQswMrFVV+7lW97t1Hc7A0cYDJMQZPpA0RKGprcByXWZ2D/+rPBTlBQQzdHwohakqjNnvJfLZInWn/HZaKduIiZCLz6j6+ZNWkh/iiaE0HRcPohXU4EhIJ361rp6WCr9yuithE2MQhZVnUQtcT/PDoS+JEiErxSg=; X-YMail-OSG: yyzNBl0VM1lbNDg6UL_WzvNU_kSPY7JYQu.v6WE.pO4JcgbTiIMtrzFBxsmq7I0r_f37.nPsHkKj8lHHhJp..KoqMIz2vSLXeeATMZzN0n4zGUP_ruG4O0MoaQWZRz_HoLAjtGX76edeY5o.JZOLZPnrKJwezfWA_g8iKdUOlvH6q2nmcGB_HG0iSDT12zRUSffhLg-- Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:58:23 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <878336.12165.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72383 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: >> Where did this [kinetic energy] come from? Simply the energy you put into the loop to >> establish the magnetic field. > > I don't know, do we have to put energy into a positive charge so that it gets attracted to a negative charge? According to physics, yes. If space is charge then that is a certain amount of energy. Charged particles were created. They just didn't magically appear. A positive and negative charged particle can be created from two photon beams. Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 09:07:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TH6BPm009820; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:06:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TH5QsP009584; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:05:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:05:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=xYqoDnMY2tam7E/GTElx91/6Lw8IO1UVNxtrjgci9ql6ZPwihvjXNBDuDYNo4ZSQUTFTc0Mkiklpyk4/jPa4qC2Ma53hehM6wYKDWqWxWr228IgSM2a1bOaF3AT1abbbCP6r/R651eR1+r1zPjZDfNr7hAbcldGTR37y2kVH70w= ; X-YMail-OSG: k9XaFSAVM1ndEYKO3Vw7ANLOnuQdb6jlk_YCA4CY5lJ4uUaBRC4MgnI1i0vSZ67XZNxN2GvW85_5dX23Zg8.H4vnoeepFRQbhhTPKv.N4BaWQk4c0V1c.YpZW9YvkmhcfQ.Fx0KbnnlpyNbNHCiJMWsytIJlhcqjeQ-- Message-ID: <45BE294E.6040206@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:05:18 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <45B4E6A7.4090408@pacbell.net> <700dr2tibm899oe14hjujcgs30j4ds28nh@4ax.com> <062301c74214$b8082870$3800a8c0@zothan> <080301c74384$899b0310$3800a8c0@zothan> <8ngrr2plaelg3fnem33m7hbuqfs4cqirm6@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <8ngrr2plaelg3fnem33m7hbuqfs4cqirm6@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72384 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: More on the Bettery Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In short, I think I would be betting on the Li ion batteries. ;) In short, I think you will be loosing that bet . I hope your loss is not as great as Sony's recent $ 175 million quarterly loss on an older lithium technology, soon to push half a billion net(adding new meaning to the "Japanese bath")... but just the same - In the tradition of Bond and the new Casino Royale, here is my "tell." You'll have to see the flick if you are not into to Poker terminology. But the chase-scene, atop a crane, is worth the ticket price, even the $12 ripoff tiks in SF. Never mind that they probably never heard of "Texas Holdem" in Montenegro, but hey this is 007, who has dodged almost as many bullets as the Governor of California. Anyway, here is my "tell" and "no-charge" I base my optimism in EEStor not in the published patent, which may have been modified in unpublished additions a dozen times by now - nor on the 'ancient history' found in older EE textbooks and charts made before the advent of nanotech and excitonics, but as mentioned in the initial posting, on the presence of a single player at the table - the proverbial 800 pound gorilla - and the telling advice is this: NEVER bet against Kleiner-Perkins. http://www.kpcb.com/portfolio/ They are the VC funder behind EEStor ... and they have an almost flawless track record of wins based on the "super-size-it" version of "due diligence" ... and the proof is found on the bottom line: they consistently make more money for their clients than the GDP of most countries. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 09:36:07 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0THa1wt001406; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:36:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0THZxGp001386; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:35:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 09:35:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0ed901c743cb$ee2b0f90$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <878336.12165.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:35:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0THZt0Y001355 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72385 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Never mind, let's assume you're right. How can you draw energy more than once from this, or from a falling weight? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> Where did this [kinetic energy] come from? Simply > the energy you put into the loop to > >> establish the magnetic field. > > > > I don't know, do we have to put energy into a > positive charge so that it gets attracted > to a negative charge? > > > > According to physics, yes. If space is charge then > that is a certain amount of energy. > Charged particles were created. They just didn't > magically appear. A positive and negative > charged particle can be created from two photon beams. > > > > > Paul > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss an email again! > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 10:08:01 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TI7l0W002105; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:07:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TI7jLV002090; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:07:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:07:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=qu7xVPcyZnPKK1ZtiEKh0i7NM/+IMmWzuWLSLohwn+tb5rF4W3RDiYvuflwqIs3xbxaSfi0Arz02GLY0xXob8npRS1MXpRb/C+Qt6v4dZY/74cHI9L7b65/qpAFzApnqn/a5KC6NLoiBd9giFMaFLKbyO5cJTFPD1RsEKuTHMag=; X-YMail-OSG: Gkqp2CQVM1l1EG0TAOPIurjxyh3vKcoUD6Xu3TR1pR2a4FMsvU_SMbS7FpWhDz2wCOPTVrZvXQkxLXKnd5k4yqkH3ENTm3jlvhsFPWFc3lOcjQkDmQu_dLCPawtC.i6tBmQhZ9XV4vjBMGCkXDCmHNT_taVFnTHlkbiHD1DE.TP2mMLazrmriEIInS5ztYxOQjVjNg-- Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:07:36 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <555460.47955.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <-1mU3.A.mg.xfjvFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72386 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: > Never mind, let's assume you're right. How can you draw energy more than once from this, or from a falling weight? From what-- magnetic dipole moment, charged space, or what? If two magnetically attracted current loops move closer then energy is moved away from the source that *sustains* the current loops. From there it depends if the current loop decreases in current or they move apart. That's why I've stated it's *temporary* energy in terms of the electron spin ***unless*** something annihilates the electron. If the electron is annihilated after gaining such KE due to acceleration then it's permanent energy. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> Where did this [kinetic energy] come from? Simply >> the energy you put into the loop to >>>> establish the magnetic field. >>> I don't know, do we have to put energy into a >> positive charge so that it gets attracted >> to a negative charge? >> >> >> >> According to physics, yes. If space is charge then >> that is a certain amount of energy. >> Charged particles were created. They just didn't >> magically appear. A positive and negative >> charged particle can be created from two photon beams. >> >> >> >> >> Paul ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 10:50:54 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TIoebZ020737; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:50:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TIodlA020725; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:50:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:50:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0ee801c743d6$5cb2ea00$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <555460.47955.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:50:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0TIobQ0020703 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72387 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Let's say from a falling weight, if that's ok with you. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > > Never mind, let's assume you're right. How can you > draw energy more than once from > this, or from a falling weight? > > > From what-- magnetic dipole moment, charged space, or > what? If two magnetically > attracted current loops move closer then energy is > moved away from the source that > *sustains* the current loops. From there it depends > if the current loop decreases in > current or they move apart. That's why I've stated > it's *temporary* energy in terms of > the electron spin ***unless*** something annihilates > the electron. If the electron is > annihilated after gaining such KE due to acceleration > then it's permanent energy. :-) > > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Paul > >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >>>> Where did this [kinetic energy] come from? > Simply > >> the energy you put into the loop to > >>>> establish the magnetic field. > >>> I don't know, do we have to put energy into a > >> positive charge so that it gets attracted > >> to a negative charge? > >> > >> > >> > >> According to physics, yes. If space is charge > then > >> that is a certain amount of energy. > >> Charged particles were created. They just didn't > >> magically appear. A positive and negative > >> charged particle can be created from two photon > beams. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Paul > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss an email again! > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 10:56:36 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TIuUMh009591; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:56:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TIuSpb009528; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:56:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:56:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=J+0xdkA/dFBeTX17Gt7en1py2HpdnNFU9Kq8Nf0Gsn5n+n/hPe4bcP8QFILSQLGp; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220071129185621151@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:56:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94048e763135e5e3fa3d741cfe89f7d9d95350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.16 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72388 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Why I think an isolated-charged conductor (Sphere or Cylinder) partially surrounded by a conductor (Sphere or Cylinder) of opposite charge will repel the earth's charge. http://f3wm.free.fr/sciences/jefimenko.html In spite of your skepticism Michel: F = k*q*Q/height^2 newtons. :-) Fred ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Why I think an isolated-charged conductor (Sphere or Cylinder)
partially surrounded by a conductor (Sphere or Cylinder)
of opposite charge will repel the earth's charge.
 
 
In spite of your skepticism Michel:
 
F = k*q*Q/height^2  newtons.   :-)
 
Fred
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 11:18:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TJI9e8015203; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:18:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TJI7RC015160; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:18:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:18:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=eAdOPuJaKUGkgkAmenv3BJ3R4yT+jaxSia2iAUzLOwXkEA2sDkGEMEjMVR/jd4vT3inHaHcljjlpx1NDyn/MTgy74Naz2+4taQVxAN8DE0Jytz2oDyXoggHfZwM2S4ZYeAyusUIcajLwG50bPvMLfNg36f/27a+Jkb/wPWrFRos=; X-YMail-OSG: UJXIZ74VM1mipAdHW8o6kdbv0ZEJySL5Cgurh36ZLijh6xvXmlEXOcmpVX5VfT0kwpNf0jQONobfXlktDWtVcv1NDUfeAcf3WdfI5B_gDaKk2UfCXWREUyRCIAPUccH3f.YoTMaO61yx33zPKSZjeydwWORJFGnVs9.JCWUn1fQFwJ7PzF4kqrWHNp0_7C_DiEpJhQ-- Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:18:04 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <173674.24606.qm@web62406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72389 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: > Let's say from a falling weight, if that's ok with you. Are we going back to gravity? We know less about gravity than magnetic & electric fields. Perhaps when we are able to create an electro-gravity coil we'll better understand gravity. Until then I predict it will require energy to generate a gravity field from such an electro-gravity coil. :-) Regards, Paul Lowrance > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul > To: > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:07 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> Never mind, let's assume you're right. How can you >> draw energy more than once from >> this, or from a falling weight? >> >> >> From what-- magnetic dipole moment, charged space, or >> what? If two magnetically >> attracted current loops move closer then energy is >> moved away from the source that >> *sustains* the current loops. From there it depends >> if the current loop decreases in >> current or they move apart. That's why I've stated >> it's *temporary* energy in terms of >> the electron spin ***unless*** something annihilates >> the electron. If the electron is >> annihilated after gaining such KE due to acceleration >> then it's permanent energy. :-) >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 12:22:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TKMUS0027293; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:22:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TKMSWU027275; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:22:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:22:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:20:58 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-reply-to: <0ed901c743cb$ee2b0f90$3800a8c0@zothan> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <5DXlbD.A.GqG.DelvFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72390 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: > Never mind, let's assume you're right. How can you draw energy more than once > from this, or from a falling weight? > > Michel You could periodically generate power from a bodies weight, if you could electrically modulate the body's weight while it is sitting on a spring, or hanging from a spring. If the electric power needed is less than the mechanical power generated by the spring-weight system then it is a "free energy" device. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 13:06:39 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TL6WRN020006; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:06:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TL6UTa019989; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:06:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:06:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Resonant Field Line Oscillations 1.6Mhz Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:06:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [138.217.27.190] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:06:27 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0TL6SG8019973 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72391 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Stiffler Scientific's message of Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:07:56 -0600: Hi, [snip] >A very interesting paper by two groups, Department of Physics, University of >Newcastle and Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of Leicester. > >For those that might have the slightest interest.. > >www.ips.gov.au/IPSHosted/STSP/meetings/aip/fred/fred.htm > I think they mean it when they say 1.6 mHz rather than 1.6 MHz. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 14:48:14 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TMm1Mn009546; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:48:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TMlxFi009522; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:47:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 14:47:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0f0601c743f7$85f70510$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <173674.24606.qm@web62406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:47:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0TMlvFu009491 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72392 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Ok, electric then. Can you draw energy more than once from the coulombic attraction of a charged body of say +1 coulomb accelerating towards a fixed equal and opposite charge? I mean for example: - How much energy E do you retrieve by releasing it from 1m away and stopping it 1cm away? (say converting 100% of it's KE to heat) - Which energy E' must you expend to bring it back 1m away so you can retrieve E again from the system? - What's the net energy E - E' pumped per cycle? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > > Let's say from a falling weight, if that's ok with > you. > > > Are we going back to gravity? We know less about > gravity than magnetic & electric fields. > Perhaps when we are able to create an > electro-gravity coil we'll better understand > gravity. Until then I predict it will require energy > to generate a gravity field from such > an electro-gravity coil. :-) > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Paul > > To: > > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:07 PM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using > *standard* physics > > > > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >>> Never mind, let's assume you're right. How can > you > >> draw energy more than once from > >> this, or from a falling weight? > >> > >> > >> From what-- magnetic dipole moment, charged space, > or > >> what? If two magnetically > >> attracted current loops move closer then energy is > >> moved away from the source that > >> *sustains* the current loops. From there it > depends > >> if the current loop decreases in > >> current or they move apart. That's why I've > stated > >> it's *temporary* energy in terms of > >> the electron spin ***unless*** something > annihilates > >> the electron. If the electron is > >> annihilated after gaining such KE due to > acceleration > >> then it's permanent energy. :-) > >> > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul Lowrance > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 15:31:39 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0TNVUc1027633; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:31:30 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0TNVSVS027614; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:31:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:31:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0f2101c743fd$99818e60$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <410-220071129185621151@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:31:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0TNVRbt027598 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72393 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fred I agree with your formula for like charges, but only if the totality of the Earth's charge is kind enough to come right under your VDG, which may be difficult since it will be repelled by it. What is more likely IMHO is that your VDG's charge, much lower but much more concentrated than the Earth's, will repel not the Earth but it's dilute like charge some distance away, attracting instead opposite charge right under it (this may be what is called "image charge"?). This would result in an increase of the VDG's apparent weight as you have observed, irrespective of the sign of the VDG's charge, or of whether it has been drawn from the Earth or not (the Earth being such a large charge reservoir comparatively). Keep us tuned, we'll find a way to fly you to the moon somehow ;-) Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics > Why I think an isolated-charged conductor (Sphere or Cylinder) > partially surrounded by a conductor (Sphere or Cylinder) > of opposite charge will repel the earth's charge. > > http://f3wm.free.fr/sciences/jefimenko.html > > In spite of your skepticism Michel: > > F = k*q*Q/height^2 newtons. :-) > > Fred From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 20:14:27 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0U4ENSD004239; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:14:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0U4EBEk004164; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:14:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:14:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=gXh9C8vqyji1ittl6tZSOUHqKo4zzOHJEj7zjYwHnSbu2ILy06+V42vkzh+NEKq7brX2n8Yy4lqkF0aQgYT6avQhxZv/6bv9CHGL6eT5DauTEiW4q262ajMu7VzRpbTXveJwQrWMcZk838tHIo64gXJevx5cPt6/d55flwvxFAE=; X-YMail-OSG: nNqGHlgVM1mv0koHB0Es4X.KAbv02o7kVyiyrDzK Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:14:09 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <316292.28473.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72394 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: > Ok, electric then. Can you draw energy more than once from the coulombic attraction of a charged body of say +1 coulomb accelerating towards a fixed equal and opposite charge? I mean for example: > > - How much energy E do you retrieve by releasing it from 1m away and stopping it 1cm away? (say converting 100% of it's KE to heat) > > - Which energy E' must you expend to bring it back 1m away so you can retrieve E again from the system? > > - What's the net energy E - E' pumped per cycle? > > Michel It's the same as an electro-magnetic in that energy is moved. Two oppositely charge and attracted objects accelerating toward each other cancel each others E-field. So the E-field energy is moved to KE. Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never Miss an Email Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started! http://mobile.yahoo.com/services?promote=mail From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 20:18:06 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0U4Hx2m006121; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:17:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0U4Hvum006104; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:17:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:17:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=A5tzEJEbfTHJdhESny/CXwlVp6nYLTgVX9hSZ5j36g4UvQMGmuKTvXekGK1m9T2y; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007123041728737@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:17:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da9408e101c83be2e3d8bae640a060bc7e73f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.165.186 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72395 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote. > > Fred I agree with your formula for like charges, but only if the totality of the Earth's charge is kind enough to come right under your VDG, which may be difficult since it will be repelled by it. > > What is more likely IMHO is that your VDG's charge, much lower but much more concentrated than the Earth's, will repel not the Earth but it's dilute like charge some distance away, attracting instead opposite charge right under it (this may be what is called "image charge"?). > That argument holds for free (electron) charge as in a metal, but not for electrons attached to atoms-molecules in the earth (soil or `plants, buildings, etc, where the Electron Affinity ranges from a fraction of eV to 2.5 eV or more. You can see the effect from this in the Crop Circles in your breakfast cereal or fuel ethanol fields out in the country. :-) > > This would result in an increase of the VDG's apparent weight as you have observed, irrespective of the sign of the VDG's charge, or of whether it has been drawn from the Earth or not (the Earth being such a large charge reservoir comparatively). > That remains to be determined. > > Keep us tuned, we'll find a way to fly you to the moon somehow ;-) > My present problem is determining the field configuration between a sphere and two (or more) oppositely charged spheres connected by tubular passageways and the resulting force on terra firma at a few meters altitude. :-) Fred > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frederick Sparber" > To: "vortex-l" > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:56 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics > > > > Why I think an isolated-charged conductor (Sphere or Cylinder) > > partially surrounded by a conductor (Sphere or Cylinder) > > of opposite charge will repel the earth's charge. > > > > http://f3wm.free.fr/sciences/jefimenko.html > > > > In spite of your skepticism Michel: > > > > F = k*q*Q/height^2 newtons. :-) > > > > Fred > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 22:08:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0U681Jv027862; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:08:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0U67w9B027840; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:07:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:07:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0f5101c74434$fae3cdd0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <316292.28473.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 07:07:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0U67r8T027821 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72396 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com I suppose that's one way to look at it. Does this allow you to find E - E' ? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:14 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > > Ok, electric then. Can you draw energy more than > once from the coulombic attraction of > a charged body of say +1 coulomb accelerating towards > a fixed equal and opposite charge? I > mean for example: > > > > - How much energy E do you retrieve by releasing it > from 1m away and stopping it 1cm > away? (say converting 100% of it's KE to heat) > > > > - Which energy E' must you expend to bring it back > 1m away so you can retrieve E again > from the system? > > > > - What's the net energy E - E' pumped per cycle? > > > > Michel > > > > It's the same as an electro-magnetic in that energy is > moved. Two oppositely charge and > attracted objects accelerating toward each other > cancel each others E-field. So the > E-field energy is moved to KE. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never Miss an Email > Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started! > http://mobile.yahoo.com/services?promote=mail > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 22:12:43 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0U6CLO1002737; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:12:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0U6CJl8002709; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:12:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:12:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=cvzfFZhbnAVOk4/IlKMOpxTFqrpLJ8ei7ZZiz1jkN/qYBoWGX4ZfDIb2Tjo37dSDs2CVsJuc+XzCPqlgyInUI07JUao9kVExhUc4FAKiKGgL3xFb7kogGPz8oheEjbKCrUT1mxr30LfqWmS/pBBtJxgxoyUoL3vY7kQKiJ0cruE= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:12:18 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-Reply-To: <0eab01c743bd$154ac4d0$3800a8c0@zothan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17665_33051252.1170137538323" References: <749602.25524.qm@web62415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <07d201c74377$d7ff7200$3800a8c0@zothan> <0eab01c743bd$154ac4d0$3800a8c0@zothan> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72397 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ------=_Part_17665_33051252.1170137538323 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 1/30/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > > > Where did this [kinetic energy] come from? Simply the energy you put > into the loop to > > establish the magnetic field. > > I don't know, do we have to put energy into a positive charge so that it > gets attracted to a negative charge? (we must not forget that the magnetic > force from a moving charged particle is purely electric in that particle's > rest frame) Ever heard of self inductance? When trying to establish a current the current forms a magnetic field, as the magnetic is time varying from nothing to the full level of current in the loop, this creates an emf in the loop which opposes the voltage being applied. (unless you designed the coil to not create a magnetic field) So while it might be a constant current and no energy is requires to maintain the current, you still had to put energy in to establish the field. This is pretty freaking basic stuff! Michel > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Berry" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:02 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > > > The magnet moving towards the loop will induce the opposite voltage in > the > > loop, as .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 volts > > induced in the opposite direction is enough to reverse the current > direction > > in the SC loop the magnet will basically not be attracted at all. > > Except of course for the fact that this would collapse the magnetic > field of > > the loop, so this helps keep the current flowing. > > > > So what will occur is a hand off, the voltage induced by the magnet will > be > > equal to the voltage induced by the collapsing magnetic field, so the > > magnetic field is slowly collapsed, there is no more current in the loop > and > > the magnet has gained KE. > > > > Where did this come from? Simply the energy you put into the loop to > > establish the magnetic field. (It might be a superconductor so it takes > no > > energy to maintain a magnetic field but it does take energy to establish > > one) > > > > In this case energy is conserved, and energy is always conserved unless > you > > use the aether, space time to change the rules. > > > > > > On 1/29/07, Michel Jullian wrote: > >> > >> Your new experiment (attraction rather than alignment) simplifies > things > >> somehow (no torque, just linear acceleration), but let's stick to the > >> non-wire-resistive loop shall we, it makes things simpler, and closer > to the > >> electron orbit or spin counterpart you are comparing it to. > >> > >> 1/ Using an external current source, let's start a constant current > >> through the loop. > >> > >> 2/ Zero wire resistance, zero radiation resistance, constant current so > >> zero auto-induced voltage -L*di/dt, so zero voltage drop. This means we > can > >> connect the loop back on itself and remove the current source without > >> stopping the current ok? Let's do that, so that loop voltage will > remain > >> zero for ever, and define this as time zero for the energy balance. > >> > >> 3/ Now let's release the magnet. It should indeed be attracted and > >> accelerated towards the short-circuited current loop so KE will be > gained, > >> but how could the energy be drawn from the loop if voltage is zero? > >> > >> Michel > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Paul" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:16 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > >> > >> > >> > Michel Jullian wrote: > >> > > I agree with all the interesting comments below, > >> > both Stephen's and yours, relative to > >> > the unavoidable antenna aspect of a coil, which makes > >> > it non purely inductive to some > >> > extent when current varies with time. > >> > > > >> > > However, may I remind you that my initial > >> > statement, which you deemed 100% incorrect, > >> > simply said that "keeping the current going" in an > >> > isolated non-resistive current loop > >> > would not consume energy. > >> > > In which case i is constant in time, so the > >> > frequency f of the signal is zero, so the > >> > wavelength lambda = c/f is infinite, so the radiation > >> > resistance: > >> > > > >> > > Rr= 31171 * A^2/lambda^2 (with A the area of the > >> > circular loop) is zero. > >> > > > >> > > So the power Rr*i^2 consumed in Rr is zero too. > >> > This still doesn't make my loop consume > >> > energy. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Your Quote, > >> > --- > >> > "You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, > >> > true but that's only because the wires > >> > are resistive. A non-resistive current-loop would not > >> > consume any energy to keep the > >> > current going." > >> > --- > >> > > >> > > >> > LOL ... this is hopeless. Again --> You state the > >> > only consumed energy in an > >> > electro-magnetic is because the wires are resistive. > >> > Besides the fact you missed other > >> > factors such as radiation resistance lets focus on the > >> > fact that a magnet attracted and > >> > accelerating toward the wire resistive current loop > >> > would *indeed* induce an opposing > >> > voltage, which would consume energy. The gained KE > >> > comes from the wire resistive current loop. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > Paul Lowrance > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > >> > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. > >> > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. > >> > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html > >> > > >> > >> > > > > ------=_Part_17665_33051252.1170137538323 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 1/30/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
> Where did this [kinetic energy] come from? Simply the energy you put into the loop to
> establish the magnetic field.

I don't know, do we have to put energy into a positive charge so that it gets attracted to a negative charge? (we must not forget that the magnetic force from a moving charged particle is purely electric in that particle's rest frame)

Ever heard of self inductance?
When trying to establish a current the current forms a magnetic field, as the magnetic is time varying from nothing to the full level of current in the loop, this creates an emf in the loop which opposes the voltage being applied. (unless you designed the coil to not create a magnetic field)

So while it might be a constant current and no energy is requires to maintain the current, you still had to put energy in to establish the field.

This is pretty freaking basic stuff!

Michel


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics


> The magnet moving towards the loop will induce the opposite voltage in the
> loop, as .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 volts
> induced in the opposite direction is enough to reverse the current direction
> in the SC loop the magnet will basically not be attracted at all.
> Except of course for the fact that this would collapse the magnetic field of
> the loop, so this helps keep the current flowing.
>
> So what will occur is a hand off, the voltage induced by the magnet will be
> equal to the voltage induced by the collapsing magnetic field, so the
> magnetic field is slowly collapsed, there is no more current in the loop and
> the magnet has gained KE.
>
> Where did this come from? Simply the energy you put into the loop to
> establish the magnetic field. (It might be a superconductor so it takes no
> energy to maintain a magnetic field but it does take energy to establish
> one)
>
> In this case energy is conserved, and energy is always conserved unless you
> use the aether, space time to change the rules.
>
>
> On 1/29/07, Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com> wrote:
>>
>> Your new experiment (attraction rather than alignment) simplifies things
>> somehow (no torque, just linear acceleration), but let's stick to the
>> non-wire-resistive loop shall we, it makes things simpler, and closer to the
>> electron orbit or spin counterpart you are comparing it to.
>>
>> 1/ Using an external current source, let's start a constant current
>> through the loop.
>>
>> 2/ Zero wire resistance, zero radiation resistance, constant current so
>> zero auto-induced voltage -L*di/dt, so zero voltage drop. This means we can
>> connect the loop back on itself and remove the current source without
>> stopping the current ok? Let's do that, so that loop voltage will remain
>> zero for ever, and define this as time zero for the energy balance.
>>
>> 3/ Now let's release the magnet. It should indeed be attracted and
>> accelerated towards the short-circuited current loop so KE will be gained,
>> but how could the energy be drawn from the loop if voltage is zero?
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Paul" <softwarelabus@yahoo.com>
>> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics
>>
>>
>> > Michel Jullian wrote:
>> > > I agree with all the interesting comments below,
>> > both Stephen's and yours, relative to
>> > the unavoidable antenna aspect of a coil, which makes
>> > it non purely inductive to some
>> > extent when current varies with time.
>> > >
>> > > However, may I remind you that my initial
>> > statement, which you deemed 100% incorrect,
>> > simply said that "keeping the current going" in an
>> > isolated non-resistive current loop
>> > would not consume energy.
>> > > In which case i is constant in time, so the
>> > frequency f of the signal is zero, so the
>> > wavelength lambda = c/f is infinite, so the radiation
>> > resistance:
>> > >
>> > > Rr= 31171 * A^2/lambda^2  (with A the area of the
>> > circular loop) is zero.
>> > >
>> > > So the power Rr*i^2 consumed in Rr is zero too.
>> > This still doesn't make my loop consume
>> > energy.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Your Quote,
>> > ---
>> > "You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy,
>> > true but that's only because the wires
>> > are resistive. A non-resistive current-loop would not
>> > consume any energy to keep the
>> > current going."
>> > ---
>> >
>> >
>> > LOL ... this is hopeless. Again -->  You state the
>> > only consumed energy in an
>> > electro-magnetic is because the wires are resistive.
>> > Besides the fact you missed other
>> > factors such as radiation resistance lets focus on the
>> > fact that a magnet attracted and
>> > accelerating toward the wire resistive current loop
>> > would *indeed* induce an opposing
>> > voltage, which would consume energy. The gained KE
>> > comes from the wire resistive current loop.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Paul Lowrance
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ____________________________________________________________________________________
>> > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
>> > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>> > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html
>> >
>>
>>
>


------=_Part_17665_33051252.1170137538323-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 23:34:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0U7YCq3018049; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:34:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0U7YACB018033; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:34:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:34:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 02:32:40 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics In-reply-to: <410-22007123041728737@earthlink.net> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: <-6F3iC.A.oZE.xTvvFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72398 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Fred, Is your set-up capable of detecting either an increase or a decrease in weight? Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 23:41:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0U7fWkD003124; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:41:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0U7fVbI003112; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:41:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:41:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0f6401c74442$0ec7e4a0$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <749602.25524.qm@web62415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <07d201c74377$d7ff7200$3800a8c0@zothan> <0eab01c743bd$154ac4d0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:41:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0U7fTZm003098 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72399 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com What I don't know is whether the gained kinetic energy is equal to the energy you put into the loop to establish the magnetic field, but this may be true I just haven't worked it out. What if both magnets are permanent ones, you don't have to put energy in do you? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > On 1/30/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> > Where did this [kinetic energy] come from? Simply the energy you put >> into the loop to >> > establish the magnetic field. >> >> I don't know, do we have to put energy into a positive charge so that it >> gets attracted to a negative charge? (we must not forget that the magnetic >> force from a moving charged particle is purely electric in that particle's >> rest frame) > > > Ever heard of self inductance? > When trying to establish a current the current forms a magnetic field, as > the magnetic is time varying from nothing to the full level of current in > the loop, this creates an emf in the loop which opposes the voltage being > applied. (unless you designed the coil to not create a magnetic field) > > So while it might be a constant current and no energy is requires to > maintain the current, you still had to put energy in to establish the field. > > This is pretty freaking basic stuff! > > Michel >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Berry" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:02 PM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics >> >> >> > The magnet moving towards the loop will induce the opposite voltage in >> the >> > loop, as .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 volts >> > induced in the opposite direction is enough to reverse the current >> direction >> > in the SC loop the magnet will basically not be attracted at all. >> > Except of course for the fact that this would collapse the magnetic >> field of >> > the loop, so this helps keep the current flowing. >> > >> > So what will occur is a hand off, the voltage induced by the magnet will >> be >> > equal to the voltage induced by the collapsing magnetic field, so the >> > magnetic field is slowly collapsed, there is no more current in the loop >> and >> > the magnet has gained KE. >> > >> > Where did this come from? Simply the energy you put into the loop to >> > establish the magnetic field. (It might be a superconductor so it takes >> no >> > energy to maintain a magnetic field but it does take energy to establish >> > one) >> > >> > In this case energy is conserved, and energy is always conserved unless >> you >> > use the aether, space time to change the rules. >> > >> > >> > On 1/29/07, Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> >> >> Your new experiment (attraction rather than alignment) simplifies >> things >> >> somehow (no torque, just linear acceleration), but let's stick to the >> >> non-wire-resistive loop shall we, it makes things simpler, and closer >> to the >> >> electron orbit or spin counterpart you are comparing it to. >> >> >> >> 1/ Using an external current source, let's start a constant current >> >> through the loop. >> >> >> >> 2/ Zero wire resistance, zero radiation resistance, constant current so >> >> zero auto-induced voltage -L*di/dt, so zero voltage drop. This means we >> can >> >> connect the loop back on itself and remove the current source without >> >> stopping the current ok? Let's do that, so that loop voltage will >> remain >> >> zero for ever, and define this as time zero for the energy balance. >> >> >> >> 3/ Now let's release the magnet. It should indeed be attracted and >> >> accelerated towards the short-circuited current loop so KE will be >> gained, >> >> but how could the energy be drawn from the loop if voltage is zero? >> >> >> >> Michel >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Paul" >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:16 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics >> >> >> >> >> >> > Michel Jullian wrote: >> >> > > I agree with all the interesting comments below, >> >> > both Stephen's and yours, relative to >> >> > the unavoidable antenna aspect of a coil, which makes >> >> > it non purely inductive to some >> >> > extent when current varies with time. >> >> > > >> >> > > However, may I remind you that my initial >> >> > statement, which you deemed 100% incorrect, >> >> > simply said that "keeping the current going" in an >> >> > isolated non-resistive current loop >> >> > would not consume energy. >> >> > > In which case i is constant in time, so the >> >> > frequency f of the signal is zero, so the >> >> > wavelength lambda = c/f is infinite, so the radiation >> >> > resistance: >> >> > > >> >> > > Rr= 31171 * A^2/lambda^2 (with A the area of the >> >> > circular loop) is zero. >> >> > > >> >> > > So the power Rr*i^2 consumed in Rr is zero too. >> >> > This still doesn't make my loop consume >> >> > energy. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Your Quote, >> >> > --- >> >> > "You keep telling us electromagnets consume energy, >> >> > true but that's only because the wires >> >> > are resistive. A non-resistive current-loop would not >> >> > consume any energy to keep the >> >> > current going." >> >> > --- >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > LOL ... this is hopeless. Again --> You state the >> >> > only consumed energy in an >> >> > electro-magnetic is because the wires are resistive. >> >> > Besides the fact you missed other >> >> > factors such as radiation resistance lets focus on the >> >> > fact that a magnet attracted and >> >> > accelerating toward the wire resistive current loop >> >> > would *indeed* induce an opposing >> >> > voltage, which would consume energy. The gained KE >> >> > comes from the wire resistive current loop. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Regards, >> >> > Paul Lowrance >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________________ >> >> > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. >> >> > Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. >> >> > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 29 23:49:57 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0U7nevs005844; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:49:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0U7ncsf005807; Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:49:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:49:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <0f6801c74443$31be9660$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <316292.28473.qm@web62413.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <0f5101c74434$fae3cdd0$3800a8c0@zothan> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:49:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0U7nas5005685 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72400 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Oh I think I understand at last your reasoning: in this case in your view energy is conserved because the field energy decreases while the kinetic energy increases. Whereas in the case of the two permanent magnets _both_ the field energy and the kinetic energy increase, so you think there is a net gain of energy. Do I interpret correctly your line of thought? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Jullian" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics >I suppose that's one way to look at it. Does this allow you to find E - E' ? > > Michel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:14 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >> > Ok, electric then. Can you draw energy more than >> once from the coulombic attraction of >> a charged body of say +1 coulomb accelerating towards >> a fixed equal and opposite charge? I >> mean for example: >> > >> > - How much energy E do you retrieve by releasing it >> from 1m away and stopping it 1cm >> away? (say converting 100% of it's KE to heat) >> > >> > - Which energy E' must you expend to bring it back >> 1m away so you can retrieve E again >> from the system? >> > >> > - What's the net energy E - E' pumped per cycle? >> > >> > Michel >> >> >> >> It's the same as an electro-magnetic in that energy is >> moved. Two oppositely charge and >> attracted objects accelerating toward each other >> cancel each others E-field. So the >> E-field energy is moved to KE. >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance >> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________________ >> Never Miss an Email >> Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started! >> http://mobile.yahoo.com/services?promote=mail >> > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 00:02:23 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0U82GTn032119; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:02:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0U82E7S032098; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:02:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:02:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=46N6Qglwg356t3TvcaHFHgP/f433KP4WOO/sq6OmaZyEMQ6jKRLmtp2SugfVUu838w/OdEn7UYqTMPRjsZGDCysGj992LT7xsw4pgvG/O9HXhC7S5IopqR16tvcD1gerOTp+uIE42GB0ht+7AZalJemLTRfqfZm6jct15e16srM=; X-YMail-OSG: 0sQs3iMVM1n5AQbbRDkt_ohxn3CH1lMbCDUYSl5TB6mDKBri0._Z8K9Q_OTaGhN9c3AxVLDYMKsuXGHPZrqipiYFZrtexRiQ.u7dnitXDN6cqFRYgf2G8klg8F.DcpMPG8Jya_Ucg7WOlhlJKzeo1p4s6Qo_DahaO51AA1RA5rw8_urrmxl2joD6scRA7YXhHPcbIg-- Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:02:13 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <847235.75446.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72401 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: > I suppose that's one way to look at it. Does this allow you to find E - E' ? The equations remain the same. I'm merely suggesting what we call PE is an existing form of energy. Such PE could exist as electric field in the case of charge, or magnetic field in the case of the magnetic dipole moment, or gravity field in the case of mass. Regards, Paul Lowrance > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:14 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: >>> Ok, electric then. Can you draw energy more than >> once from the coulombic attraction of >> a charged body of say +1 coulomb accelerating towards >> a fixed equal and opposite charge? I >> mean for example: >>> - How much energy E do you retrieve by releasing it >> from 1m away and stopping it 1cm >> away? (say converting 100% of it's KE to heat) >>> - Which energy E' must you expend to bring it back >> 1m away so you can retrieve E again >> from the system? >>> - What's the net energy E - E' pumped per cycle? >>> >>> Michel >> >> >> It's the same as an electro-magnetic in that energy is >> moved. Two oppositely charge and >> attracted objects accelerating toward each other >> cancel each others E-field. So the >> E-field energy is moved to KE. >> >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 00:34:01 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0U8XrWm030678; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:33:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0U8Xpa9030663; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:33:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:33:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=3BVSIX0wFGsvUFl1pZ/7p8qH4REvn9DP+KbOy4l9ZxB3IS0qJYzeTo8auQEXnZETKl9MxEKC9yYqzdxJzjC3YATI2HgmKLi09Od0/mNfdLKqTOrZ+/7W1ZaDj288AvUYTkZ3ODMkTETwd9fSftVPwrUiuxyjqhFbptC+jL4/i50=; X-YMail-OSG: dusJOrIVM1nxRHkPAfoUbf6sO9v3OlLOtTIAiSDAmOiJaV11huCP4asInj.g7Vuk7AmnQXruf9UhXTNwWsZDnHzaBNkYQgIQZFurAEATj6bT0IjmHzALpHs77WJnIcBR1fd7lZxc6RrqNkPklRIsxNm1y4JY.pIwz.87cxy6fTZDvziCRH.cMXyzEjByh5DuDsvdOg-- Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:33:50 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <206491.9412.qm@web62407.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72402 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Michel Jullian wrote: > Oh I think I understand at last your reasoning: in this case in your view energy is conserved > because the field energy decreases while the kinetic energy increases. Whereas in the case > of the two permanent magnets _both_ the field energy and the kinetic energy increase, so you > think there is a net gain of energy. Do I interpret correctly your line of thought? Regarding the electro-magnet we can precisely trace where such energy comes from, as described in earlier posts. The million-dollar question is regarding charged particles such as the electron. So far we can only speculate where the electrons energy exists or what sustains the electron. Indeed many QM physicist claim the electron has no size as we understand. Perhaps it does, perhaps it does not. Perhaps the energy is found in a higher dimension. We know it requires energy to create the electron. Therefore, such energy must exist. Regards, Paul Lowrance > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michel Jullian > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:07 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > > >> I suppose that's one way to look at it. Does this allow you to find E - E' ? >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Paul >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:14 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics >> >> >>> Michel Jullian wrote: >>>> Ok, electric then. Can you draw energy more than >>> once from the coulombic attraction of >>> a charged body of say +1 coulomb accelerating towards >>> a fixed equal and opposite charge? I >>> mean for example: >>>> - How much energy E do you retrieve by releasing it >>> from 1m away and stopping it 1cm >>> away? (say converting 100% of it's KE to heat) >>>> - Which energy E' must you expend to bring it back >>> 1m away so you can retrieve E again >>> from the system? >>>> - What's the net energy E - E' pumped per cycle? >>>> >>>> Michel >>> >>> >>> It's the same as an electro-magnetic in that energy is >>> moved. Two oppositely charge and >>> attracted objects accelerating toward each other >>> cancel each others E-field. So the >>> E-field energy is moved to KE. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 03:51:28 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UBpGdn002195; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 03:51:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UBpEkJ002180; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 03:51:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 03:51:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nG6FeUKiOditWf+RkxvIiKYced3ITN1cNt4aSxi8Lma317lSC/EkQ+jaihEGstEH; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-22007123011510826@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:51:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940367f628577b1a21f31d59c4ddb647474350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.60 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72403 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Harry Veeder wrote > > Fred, > > Is your set-up capable of detecting either > an increase or a decrease in weight? > Yes Harry. It can be set on the Acculab 0-10 KG digital scale that has a resolution of +/- 1.0 gram at any load up to 10 KG. The 200 KV VDG weighs 1.5 KG allowing for Styrofoam isolation for the scale and an inverter and a bank of 1.5 volt "D" batteries to power the scale and aluminum foil and the VDG so that charge can be transferred from the VDG and the aluminum foil which has about 6.0E*23 "uncommitted" electrons per mole (27 grams). If it wasn't for the cost I would use at least three VDGs for getting a multipole field configuration to see how it interacts with the earth-ionosphere charges. Fred . > Harry > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 04:12:51 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UCChXV025428; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:12:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UCCeLI025408; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:12:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:12:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=oBCkUDC0l38fRHqV5PYMeUyx5mzy5JCVRN+7BrWizqdRSJdfZBnQnbvVq+8k9eeBlXaptu0q1by6x0rR2RDFaKky6DzGW7NdRWbjJbGx0XX/n92ByLUzROe28j2WEa1VK+6qVnG8KJtBtoORWbl5mcWGELULEDXeMndPEEzGOtI= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 07:12:39 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Resonant Field Line Oscillations 1.6Mhz In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72404 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On 1/29/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > I think they mean it when they say 1.6 mHz rather than 1.6 MHz. Yes. Which results in a wavelength of roughly 1 a.u. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 05:37:09 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UDaxP9001477; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 05:36:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UDav0q001466; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 05:36:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 05:36:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=MUZ65Jhs3gRBDnmSvn+TFpjRHunigK5doDEUZWE2PZP6JPFa1IimjYE4h4s2rRJM; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220071230133629811@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 06:36:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940be3e04f88f7e66b63a3140b531373b16350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.117.222 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72405 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This Field Line Applet is cheaper than buying more VDGs. http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html > > [Original Message] > From: Frederick Sparber > To: > Date: 1/30/2007 4:51:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics > > Harry Veeder wrote > > > > Fred, > > > > Is your set-up capable of detecting either > > an increase or a decrease in weight? > > > Yes Harry. It can be set on the Acculab 0-10 KG digital scale that > has a resolution of +/- 1.0 gram at any load up to 10 KG. > > The 200 KV VDG weighs 1.5 KG allowing for Styrofoam isolation > for the scale and an inverter and a bank of 1.5 volt "D" batteries to power > the scale and aluminum foil and the VDG so that charge can be transferred > from the VDG and the aluminum foil which has about 6.0E*23 "uncommitted" > electrons per mole (27 grams). > > If it wasn't for the cost I would use at least three VDGs for getting > a multipole field configuration to see how it interacts with the > earth-ionosphere charges. > > Fred > . > > Harry > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 06:01:32 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UE1JaS015648; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 06:01:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UE1IUk015631; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 06:01:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 06:01:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cVaHYBxSly+H0i1HdATOqRj4efzgVIKWCD/RMpnTDDP8Db+4Z7+LO7QoZvKyb3Fygj3qc0TQKBc4GG/V4PFrwFN8HRgjhak1Uzx+R8ETPtSpgabraqb8c6aCM5nhaV2hFwHITlpyEq6JY6hkcpBLGDDlEZgdqZ6CkmJhWtp+ahM= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:01:15 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-Reply-To: <206491.9412.qm@web62407.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <206491.9412.qm@web62407.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72406 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On 1/30/07, Paul wrote: > The million-dollar > question is regarding charged particles > such as the electron. So far we can only speculate > where the electrons energy exists or > what sustains the electron. Indeed many QM physicist > claim the electron has no size as we > understand. Perhaps it does, perhaps it does not. > Perhaps the energy is found in a higher > dimension. We know it requires energy to create the > electron. Therefore, such energy must > exist. I have intentionally stayed out of this knowing that ultimately someone would reach this point. Now, take the time to read DL Hotson's analysis of PAM Dirac's famous energy equation: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/HotsonPart1.pdf where you will find that the energy comes from an orthogonal space which is a part of our universe but which we cannot sense directly. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 07:16:50 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UFGf3W015213; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 07:16:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UFGd9K015199; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 07:16:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 07:16:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=W+bKSUiCChYdWPij20bpBkrGkN/VreW+hiha0nOugUI1BpDjTH8d/G+Xe5hVKM3D; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220071230151559556@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:15:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da940eaa347fd6fef7c9461e95207b2b684d8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.162.237 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72407 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Posted earlier: > > This Field Line Applet is cheaper than buying more VDGs. > > > http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html > If the force around a positively charged sphere is reduced by cladding it with a high dielectric constant material (K) it's external force/field will drop off accordingly: E = D/eo = D/(K*eo) = 1/K * 1/(4(pi) eo * Q/R^2 where D = 1/4(pi) * Q/R^2 Force = 1/K * 1/4(pi)eo * q* Q/R^2 Hence a 3-point craft with a cladded positive center sphere and three exposed negative spheres should repel the earth's excess negative charge up to an altitude that requires charge reversal for getting past the ionosphere. http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html > > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Frederick Sparber > > To: > > Date: 1/30/2007 4:51:38 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics > > > > Harry Veeder wrote > > > > > > Fred, > > > > > > Is your set-up capable of detecting either > > > an increase or a decrease in weight? > > > > > Yes Harry. It can be set on the Acculab 0-10 KG digital scale that > > has a resolution of +/- 1.0 gram at any load up to 10 KG. > > > > The 200 KV VDG weighs 1.5 KG allowing for Styrofoam isolation > > for the scale and an inverter and a bank of 1.5 volt "D" batteries to > power > > the scale and aluminum foil and the VDG so that charge can be transferred > > from the VDG and the aluminum foil which has about 6.0E*23 "uncommitted" > > electrons per mole (27 grams). > > > > If it wasn't for the cost I would use at least three VDGs for getting > > a multipole field configuration to see how it interacts with the > > earth-ionosphere charges. > > > > Fred > > . > > > Harry > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 08:19:18 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UGJAu5026914; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:19:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UGJ7Va026874; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:19:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:19:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <45BF6FEF.6060103@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:18:55 -0500 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics References: <410-220071230151559556@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-220071230151559556@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72408 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Frederick Sparber wrote: > Posted earlier: >> This Field Line Applet is cheaper than buying more VDGs. >> >> >> http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html >> > If the force around a positively charged sphere is reduced by > cladding it with a high dielectric constant material (K) It won't be, not unless the cladding has a net charge. The dielectric or other properties of the cladding aren't relevant to its ability to "shield" something, which can be done only by canceling the original field. (There's no such thing as a "true" electric shield, of course. At least according to conventional theory, the E field obeys the law of superposition, and you can't actually "block" it; you can only cancel it.) If you surround a charged sphere with any spherically symmetric material which does not, itself, carry a net charge, the result will be no change in the external field (outside the cladding) and no change in the net force acting on the system (sphere+cladding) due to an external field. > it's external > force/field will drop off accordingly: > E = D/eo = D/(K*eo) = 1/K * 1/(4(pi) eo * Q/R^2 > > where D = 1/4(pi) * Q/R^2 Beware being mesmerized by the D field's behavior. Maxwell's equations are valid everywhere without any auxiliary fields (D and H) -- the aux fields are just a convenience, to make calculations easier inside matter where there are lots of mobile dipoles (both electric and magnetic), and to make the equations simpler in MKS units. In electrostatics a sheet of high-dielectric insulator material immersed in a static E field perpendicular to its surface can be modeled as a capacitor: its dipoles align with the E field, all internal dipole "end fields" cancel, and the two surfaces of the insulator acquire charges, one positive and the other negative. Like any parallel plate capacitor, of course, the field outside the dielectric is (nearly) zero, and it's not going to have any effect on the external field of something around which it's wrapped. > Force = 1/K * 1/4(pi)eo * q* Q/R^2 > > Hence a 3-point craft with a cladded positive center sphere and > three exposed negative spheres should repel the earth's excess > negative charge up to an altitude that requires charge reversal > for getting past the ionosphere. That's just it. It won't, if the cladding is neutral (no net charge). If it did you could close the cladding, move a bit, open the cladding, move back, close the cladding, and so forth, and voila, you have a PMM. With uncharged cladding opening and closing the cladding (by sliding it) should require insignificant work. > > http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html > >>> [Original Message] >>> From: Frederick Sparber >>> To: >>> Date: 1/30/2007 4:51:38 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics >>> >>> Harry Veeder wrote >>>> Fred, >>>> >>>> Is your set-up capable of detecting either >>>> an increase or a decrease in weight? >>>> >>> Yes Harry. It can be set on the Acculab 0-10 KG digital scale that >>> has a resolution of +/- 1.0 gram at any load up to 10 KG. >>> >>> The 200 KV VDG weighs 1.5 KG allowing for Styrofoam isolation >>> for the scale and an inverter and a bank of 1.5 volt "D" batteries to >> power >>> the scale and aluminum foil and the VDG so that charge can be > transferred >>> from the VDG and the aluminum foil which has about 6.0E*23 "uncommitted" >>> electrons per mole (27 grams). >>> >>> If it wasn't for the cost I would use at least three VDGs for getting >>> a multipole field configuration to see how it interacts with the >>> earth-ionosphere charges. >>> >>> Fred >>> . >>>> Harry >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 08:25:02 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UGOr8B022062; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:24:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UGOpgx021962; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:24:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:24:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=tpdIqnsuAxGg/+vTB1sR2rFMiiiBmjGw95G++JnJ4Esvjd/3pcnYBfppVOcPr8cIkdWbfh/th4KAt3pIdsglAsdNpWaPoVSR7mtshsWRLlnYQ8eZD45wgYeJCIiCGhhOnL3GkwyRX5mYcZUljb5vEmuy2X/B9JU5TfSGY2vyRyk= ; X-YMail-OSG: 6IbnquUVM1n5ukxiq.z7SfCz..4K3sWG3tvhWZ8FjLWoIlC89p9v3Th59jSsuTAVg9sHiyWZL6PpOCefAHYGGlE..Z7wSCs_zn1B4cwynYGtesqWb82zNYqhD6BnTTr5ddD8udlr2Tr2Juy.ibcBNGCM4OeuEvdVVXk- Message-ID: <45BF7151.6040009@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:24:49 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fjsparber@earthlink.net CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <410-22007123011510826@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <410-22007123011510826@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72409 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Van de Graaf Antics Frederick Sparber wrote: > If it wasn't for the cost I would use at least three VDGs for getting > a multipole field configuration to see how it interacts with the > earth-ionosphere charges. Fred, there is a most interesting convergence of ideas going-on here that might push your experiment "higher" so-to-speak, in anti-gravity terms. I am referring to the three-way collection of postings over the weekend regarding "Energy Violations" and "Circuit cries Foul" and VDG/AG etc. Did you catch that there is this glaring overlap, once you tun into the details, in those threads with what you are doing? Ultimately, I am suggesting the possibility of adding an Avramenko's Plug 'type' of Free Electron Pump to operate in tandem with a VDG: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/afep01.htm The might allow the two operate with synergism, to wit: Any motion of charge is electric current by definition, even if the motion is relatively minor compared to the potential. The electric potential field can move charge; especially in an AC or pulsed DC situation and this results in "free" work or energy, but of a strange sort, which I think that this is where the possible overlap between all of these recent threads on Vortex lies. It is (probably) enough to use the electrical field (scalar potential source) to create the power and work in an electric load circuit, which is then recycled back, with some added electrons drawn in from ambient. This could be autocatalytic. But bordering on this is the semantic quandary: which Frolov/Bearden state something to the effect that there are both the "wattful" current and "wattless" current. Almost brings a smiley out, doesn't it. To create the so-called "free energy system," then, it is necessary to transform the wattless current to wattful current - but that might be only possible in an "in situ" situation, resulting in antigravity as the end product. Almost brings a bigger smiley out, doesn't it. This kind of lingo: OU-speak - will turn many EEs (not Terry) to mush but nevertheless, this is the same kind of thing one hears regarding "cold electricity" and "Radiant energy" in other circles. The point being that there is a "special kind" of EMF available in nature, which is not exactly watt-denominated (so to speak). It is not exactly electrostatic either. This is the crux of the Tesla controversy. I urge you to look into this possibility as an altenative (and cheaper way) instead of adding another VDG. Especially note that Naudin's version of the plug with an automotive ignition coil, or a lighter weight version, might operate kind of as an intermediary system, even though I suspect that the barium ferrite antennas of Dr. Stiffler are adding something special also, in the way of usable EMF. IOW you would not need to add more power, just kind of a "reverse VDG" - if you catch my drift. But the bottom line is that so long as your gram-scale can accomodate the added weight, you might be able to combine many of these hypothetical ideas - although to be honest - the best approach to doing this is not clear. Make sure that there is no one on you roof at the time you fire it up . Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 08:50:55 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UGoeRp013503; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:50:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UGocw4013479; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:50:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:50:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=lXtN1XoVX7RVjCJx3xu1vjZlMZwTKKYXtbyenH/1ebsmStRqVHuyeKELCsRa+3N/sp3uDZkFEwbjI4bdpDPoVIMceNcMAbadeN1wQP3jm58z3ip3RnpiO+lBXVZczz6rWUN5fXXRHSFxw5QNWzX3eH2KKo3YROiY4hh8SulS4Tk= Message-ID: <357653710701300850w60ad244dped6c36bfd15cd557@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:50:35 +0100 From: "David Jonsson" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_25079_22743812.1170175835755" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72410 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Repelling Casimir effect ------=_Part_25079_22743812.1170175835755 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Wikipedia we ca read "Further research has shown that, with materials of certain permittivityand permeability , or with a certain configuration, the Casimir effect could be made repulsive instead of attractive, although there are no experimental demonstrations of these predictions." from URL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect Can anyone tell what this research is? Isn't Teflon a good example? David ------=_Part_25079_22743812.1170175835755 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Wikipedia we ca read
"Further research has shown that, with materials of certain permittivity and permeability, or with a certain configuration, the Casimir effect could be made repulsive instead of attractive, although there are no experimental demonstrations of these predictions."
from URL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

Can anyone tell what this research is?

Isn't Teflon a good example?

David
------=_Part_25079_22743812.1170175835755-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 10:59:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UIxhxo002385; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:59:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UIxaYB002341; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:59:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:59:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:58:06 -0500 From: Harry Veeder Subject: Re: [Vo]: Resonant Field Line Oscillations 1.6Mhz In-reply-to: To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.0.3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72411 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Terry Blanton wrote: > On 1/29/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >> I think they mean it when they say 1.6 mHz rather than 1.6 MHz. > > Yes. Which results in a wavelength of roughly 1 a.u. > > Terry > As you know that figure corresponds to the distance between the Earth and the Sun. This suggests gravity might be at play here. Harry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 11:33:30 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UJXJIg023060; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:33:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UJXI2A023024; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:33:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:33:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001801c744a5$7b895980$72027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Subject: Re: [VO]: Resonant Field Line Oscillations 1.6Mhz Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:33:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C74473.303165E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72412 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C74473.303165E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0015_01C74473.303165E0" ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C74473.303165E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank Some experiments with frequency http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp16.asp=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C74473.303165E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
 
 Some experiments with=20 frequency

http://www.blazelabs.com/e-= exp16.asp=20

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0015_01C74473.303165E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C74473.303165E0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001301c744a5$7ac434c0$72027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C74473.303165E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 11:56:00 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UJtsJ8007959; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:55:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UJtq6P007942; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:55:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:55:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=dSOWJzSlwJKOPiCsZOJkqGpac08473jnIr4TrcbdxUQs1liIiWoihoDJ8bZ1ZRe0; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-reply-to:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [VO]: Resonant Field Line Oscillations 1.6Mhz Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:54:49 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74476.35565AF0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <001801c744a5$7b895980$72027841@xptower> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609db3a38c0c2ba6e5d5ff2f09d237718522601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72413 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74476.35565AF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0003_01C74476.3558CBF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C74476.3558CBF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BlankHello R.C. This fellow does some great work in component construction, one of our weak area's, (machine shop no we don't have). I spend some time looking over Tesla and the big difference in what I am doing is the secondary is floating, one lead of the secondary is open. No a good population of EE's will say this is totally a coupling via capacity and I will fight to the hill that they are wrong. It seems what we can read about Tesla has been sanitized to some extent. (May be wrong) here, but with all he did he should have seen that there is such a thing as 'To coin a phrase' and Jones will like this one, "Open System Wattful Potential", Duh! Well I think he did and someplace it got lost. So is the BlazeLabs in Texas? Looked a short time on the site and could not get an address, did not research the URL owner. -----Original Message----- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:33 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VO]: Resonant Field Line Oscillations 1.6Mhz Some experiments with frequency http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp16.asp Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C74476.3558CBF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Hello=20 R.C.
 
This fellow = does some=20 great work in component construction, one of our weak area's, (machine = shop no=20 we don't have). I spend some time looking over Tesla and the big = difference in=20 what I am doing is the secondary is floating, one lead of the secondary = is open.=20 No a good population of EE's will say this is totally a coupling via = capacity=20 and I will fight to the hill that they are wrong. It seems what we can = read=20 about Tesla has been sanitized to some extent. (May be wrong) here, but = with all=20 he did he should have seen that there is such a thing as 'To coin a = phrase' and=20 Jones will like this one, "Open System Wattful Potential",=20 Duh!
 
Well I think = he did and=20 someplace it got lost.
 
So is the = BlazeLabs in=20 Texas? Looked a short time on the site and could not get an address, did = not=20 research the URL owner.
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Macaulay=20 [mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 = 1:33=20 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VO]: = Resonant=20 Field Line Oscillations 1.6Mhz

 
 Some experiments with = frequency

http://www.blazelabs.com/e-= exp16.asp=20

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0003_01C74476.3558CBF0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74476.35565AF0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <550024419@30012007-26c2> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74476.35565AF0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 12:17:38 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UKHIND018837; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:17:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UKHGQO018805; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:17:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:17:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=v/CYRWrB/5Kf0f5dUw5t43vxksN37FHijVewI0ZCx9BaI0y5Dh9WBkA089lCr2+cC8NwHSVy8I5QvaGc08E5u7yclav9odEdS6B8EipjVBv63PX8xVKTPjBDF2n3Kk181heiQk5FIyCdecvYZpPcxdo/QunL+/ShpxZrOwE3UF4=; Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:17:12 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <69416.71702.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72414 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Terry Blanton wrote: > On 1/30/07, Paul wrote: > >> The million-dollar >> question is regarding charged particles >> such as the electron. So far we can only speculate >> where the electrons energy exists or >> what sustains the electron. Indeed many QM physicist >> claim the electron has no size as we >> understand. Perhaps it does, perhaps it does not. >> Perhaps the energy is found in a higher >> dimension. We know it requires energy to create the >> electron. Therefore, such energy must >> exist. > > I have intentionally stayed out of this knowing that ultimately > someone would reach this point. Now, take the time to read DL > Hotson's analysis of PAM Dirac's famous energy equation: > > http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/HotsonPart1.pdf > > where you will find that the energy comes from an orthogonal space > which is a part of our universe but which we cannot sense directly. Thanks! That's a powerful theory. I'll have to study it when time permits. You forgot part 2 --> http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/HotsonPart2.pdf Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 12:22:11 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UKLuuv020012; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:21:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UKLs85019995; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:21:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:21:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <000e01c744ac$47511bb0$a1037841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: References: Subject: Re: [VO]: Resonant Field Line Oscillations 1.6Mhz Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:21:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C74479.FC289C80"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72415 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C74479.FC289C80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000B_01C74479.FC289C80" ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C74479.FC289C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankR.Stiffler wrote.. Hello R.C. This fellow does some great work in component construction, one of our = weak area's, (machine shop no we don't have). I spend some time looking = over Tesla and the big difference in what I am doing is the secondary is = floating, one lead of the secondary is open. No a good population of = EE's will say this is totally a coupling via capacity and I will fight = to the hill that they are wrong. It seems what we can read about Tesla = has been sanitized to some extent. (May be wrong) here, but with all he = did he should have seen that there is such a thing as 'To coin a phrase' = and Jones will like this one, "Open System Wattful Potential", Duh! Well I think he did and someplace it got lost. So is the BlazeLabs in Texas? Looked a short time on the site and = could not get an address, did not research the URL owner. Howdy Ron, Must be a part of the John Hutchison effect.. I think he is in Canada = somewhere. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C74479.FC289C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
R.Stiffler wrote..

Hello=20 R.C.
 
This = fellow does some=20 great work in component construction, one of our weak area's, (machine = shop no=20 we don't have). I spend some time looking over Tesla and the big = difference in=20 what I am doing is the secondary is floating, one lead of the = secondary is=20 open. No a good population of EE's will say this is totally a coupling = via=20 capacity and I will fight to the hill that they are wrong. It seems = what we=20 can read about Tesla has been sanitized to some extent. (May be wrong) = here,=20 but with all he did he should have seen that there is such a thing as = 'To coin=20 a phrase' and Jones will like this one, "Open System Wattful = Potential",=20 Duh!
 
Well I = think he did=20 and someplace it got lost.
 
So is the = BlazeLabs in=20 Texas? Looked a short time on the site and could not get an address, = did not=20 research the URL owner.
 
 
Howdy=20 Ron,
 
Must be a = part of the=20 John Hutchison effect.. I think he is in Canada = somewhere.
 
Richard

------=_NextPart_001_000B_01C74479.FC289C80-- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C74479.FC289C80 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000901c744ac$46b85e20$a1037841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C74479.FC289C80-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 12:23:15 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UKMvTR020964; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:22:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UKMtmn020942; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:22:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:22:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OCvQWqYvzU1rUap9U/vMlv2bXgYS5lkyhiseXM7h+S+bbrDoQrxAfybCq1F/2kbgnPNXddskyoUk1lVOliDCbhH/ZG037rzYxdPKeN8UPc1oMGPS3DyYTd2d1FSpdbHaOyw2wc7F+nlwyYz0+wiLzQbwA+Lnzre+GLnfzW/mOoM= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:22:52 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Resonant Field Line Oscillations 1.6Mhz In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Resent-Message-ID: <30Sa3.A.KHF.fk6vFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72416 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On 1/30/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > As you know that figure corresponds to the distance between the Earth and > the Sun. > > This suggests gravity might be at play here. Or some spherical capacitor effect. Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 12:32:38 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UKWLWH031295; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:32:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UKWJ2R031273; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:32:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:32:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=aZKg3CF5pJZiK4Pj/OKKeqZoa4SoTTG37eqbqaGNPZHw2q/+tmpCZiB4uVs7nOhiDcNGgN2WHlFkxzrbAeUT/qJVjcQPCE8fklguuOfxmLudGPTNn6PovVL84cNBisBxYIW+5OQ6bHNhNFaj+HvATXBx/m5GlR+SIvboIU/rGSE=; X-YMail-OSG: SrGT6IgVM1nWaCcSs3a_PJx5o.uUyOVFeuMME2L60WlkYMlkZjq3W6U4MHp80raEX9BHy3XczFIpt_tgaRRitpJ_Bymen_LsflO.qUrfsQC43SPqSEhemklWZmC5B.HB5OEksBJmYfeAX5E7BvpULvLk Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:32:16 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Subject: [VO]: change of email address To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <202423.67884.qm@web62410.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72417 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Notice: Change of email address to energymover@gmail.com Regards, Paul Lowrance ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 13:53:33 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0ULrNCm031884; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:53:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0ULrM0q031865; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:53:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:53:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=gzdx7gV9XUvaOH8i6yAzVk5BQW6pGWfuL1GiftQORkidIR/GgbA/Ri0aa+Jx3KHxvNpJ1QZI6H6rHvT17pe+3q2EpVzKLACt3J1ePKI8xalARFAlSqDHozir84mkVms3QwXrLi/Lq8hcIpWIJmMBTgTJM4Yy3z+3sRsV5cjPGtQ= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:53:16 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-Reply-To: <69416.71702.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <69416.71702.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72418 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On 1/30/07, Paul wrote: > Thanks! That's a powerful theory. I'll have to study > it when time permits. You forgot > part 2 --> > > http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/HotsonPart2.pdf Paul, I have read it about 5 times now and am beginning to grasp the meaning. Look at the image of the vortex on the rexresearch webpage and imagine that the vortex image is an electron rotating in 3D space on the downward sprial and upward in the orthogonal space. You might imagine the electron as a pump between spaces 1-3 D (down) and 4-6 D (up). This would explain why the fermion has a non-integer spin in 3D space. It takes 720 degrees of rotation to return to the starting point -- hence a spin of 1/2. I'm not quite there; but, I think I am close. :-) Terry PS I did not forget Hotson2. It's simply too heretical at this time. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 14:04:51 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UM4U6V020190; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:04:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UM4SQx020168; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:04:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:04:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Resonant Field Line Oscillations 1.6Mhz Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:04:19 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta02sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.2.178] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:04:19 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0UM4Kbq020108 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72419 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:22:52 -0500: Hi, [snip] >On 1/30/07, Harry Veeder wrote: > >> As you know that figure corresponds to the distance between the Earth and >> the Sun. >> >> This suggests gravity might be at play here. > >Or some spherical capacitor effect. > >Terry I suspect that all it implies is some form of resonance, which could just as easily be magnetic, as long as disturbances in the field involved travel at light speed. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 14:07:00 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UM6iOt004584; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:06:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UM6dxY004549; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:06:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:06:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lS+bEutTL2n9k+0ejqGce+VlirfK7i0vpxHyALvmTD4w8HOJQSHcRkqox2tdmBY3fdN5akZV35VeA9Avq9oLDHItUdOSWG2QyFrVOTr+JWzRGnZ+fY1VJeC5oX1SLX6WQfnLSZzk1jLvagtK9OXWFDnbS1VOvyrDiObyIbdYN3U= Message-ID: <45BFC142.30400@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:05:54 -0800 From: "energymover@gmail.com" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics References: <69416.71702.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <55obK.A.AHB.uF8vFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72420 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Terry Blanton wrote: > On 1/30/07, Paul wrote: > >> Thanks! That's a powerful theory. I'll have to study >> it when time permits. You forgot >> part 2 --> >> >> http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/HotsonPart2.pdf > > Paul, > > I have read it about 5 times now and am beginning to grasp the > meaning. Look at the image of the vortex on the rexresearch webpage > and imagine that the vortex image is an electron rotating in 3D space > on the downward sprial and upward in the orthogonal space. Do you have a link to the rexresearch vortex image? Paul From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 14:16:07 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UMFfBP025506; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:15:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UMFdjr025476; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:15:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:15:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Easy Unidirectional Force, get out your calculators... Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:15:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.2.178] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:15:25 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0UMFP0E025421 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72421 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to John Berry's message of Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:48:21 +1300: Hi, [snip] >Now in the 0.000000000169 of a second that it has taken the magnetic field >to get to the top magnet from bottom magnet the position of the bottom >magnet has changed, but the field can't know this change in position has >occurred so it doesn't penetrate as deep (it sees the new position of the >top magnet but only knows of the old location of the bottom magnet). >However the magnetic field of the top magnet is effecting the bottom magnet >more powerfully than it should because it can't know that the magnet that >created it has since relocated, and if it did that would be instantaneous >communication. > >This gives a net thrust upwards, the only question is how strong? What about the reverse situation. The time it takes for the force from the bottom magnet to reach the top magnet? Wouldn't that produce the reverse effect? ...and what is supporting the top magnet...I think you need to look at the effect on *all* the forces involved before concluding that there is a net resultant uni-directional force. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 14:49:53 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UMngfO022786; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:49:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UMnffU022754; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:49:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:49:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=THZxuiYOSXx9YygSZ4rkyNj7Qe/AP7yGurBdqbhbrVQ62mhU0K4hAhPS3sRS/ZpoRhjhaLF9XOLzW8Lha4q+EWCdEtJCT/+g54UY8X0X46gGvmGAtUSTUqrb261kiMfHpJrphn63ZGRDRuT55PBWiBrbCSkY0WMAPKnfu/nN7qM= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:49:38 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Easy Unidirectional Force, get out your calculators... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_21482_11665540.1170197378736" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72422 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ------=_Part_21482_11665540.1170197378736 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 1/31/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > In reply to John Berry's message of Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:48:21 +1300: > [snip] > What about the reverse situation. The time it takes for the force from the > bottom magnet to reach the top magnet? Wouldn't that produce the reverse > effect? > ...and what is supporting the top magnet...I think you need to look at the > effect on *all* the forces involved before concluding that there is a net > resultant uni-directional force. I think you misunderstand. Both magnets are held in the attractive position at a fixed distance, glued to each side of a piece of wood if you like. Then we will apply an even constant acceleration force. (or we simply assume gravity is the same as acceleration, shouldn't magnetic fields be bent by gravity if light is?) Now at any moment the magnetic field around the magnet is renewing it's magnetic flux, that is to say if you turn a magnet by 90 degrees this new magnetic field doesn't instantaneously propagate, it takes time. In the same way if I have a magnet which is attracting another magnet, and then I remove this magnet the other magnet must not immediately be aware that the other magnet has been withdrawn (turned off) so it still feels the same force for a period of time. Much the same is happening here, while the magnets are being accelerated together, when the magnetic flux from the bottom magnet gets to the top magnet it doesn't know that the position of the magnet that created it has now changed and has kept pace with the top magnet so it has a weaker field or a field that doesn't extend as far in front of it, so the top magnet is not as much attracted down. However the reverse is true for the field from the top magnet, it can't know the magnet has receded and so it has a more powerful effect of attracting the bottom magnet up the page than it should. This leads to a net force up the page in the direction of acceleration, or against gravity. In repulsion the force would be reversed. ------=_Part_21482_11665540.1170197378736 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 1/31/07, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In reply to  John Berry's message of Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:48:21 +1300:
[snip]
What about the reverse situation. The time it takes for the force from the
bottom magnet to reach the top magnet? Wouldn't that produce the reverse effect?
...and what is supporting the top magnet...I think you need to look at the
effect on *all* the forces involved before concluding that there is a net
resultant uni-directional force.

I think you misunderstand.
Both magnets are held in the attractive position at a fixed distance, glued to each side of a piece of wood if you like.

Then we will apply an even constant acceleration force. (or we simply assume gravity is the same as acceleration, shouldn't magnetic fields be bent by gravity if light is?)

Now at any moment the magnetic field around the magnet is renewing it's magnetic flux, that is to say if you turn a magnet by 90 degrees this new magnetic field doesn't instantaneously propagate, it takes time.

In the same way if I have a magnet which is attracting another magnet, and then I remove this magnet the other magnet must not immediately be aware that the other magnet has been withdrawn (turned off) so it still feels the same force for a period of time.

Much the same is happening here, while the magnets are being accelerated together, when the magnetic flux from the bottom magnet gets to the top magnet it doesn't know that the position of the magnet that created it has now changed and has kept pace with the top magnet so it has a weaker field or a field that doesn't extend as far in front of it, so the top magnet is not as much attracted down.

However the reverse is true for the field from the top magnet, it can't know the magnet has receded and so it has a more powerful effect of attracting the bottom magnet up the page than it should.

This leads to a net force up the page in the direction of acceleration, or against gravity.
In repulsion the force would be reversed.


------=_Part_21482_11665540.1170197378736-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 15:01:24 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UN1K1v026609; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:01:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UN1DCM026549; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:01:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:01:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=aSPETli6mONsCe0JbZ9Erqlx2/pCm72OT6xmhpNXfl/MVQ86Kjj7TBO3p31VIPBLLf3Oui0X62cxQc4TsW7MzkXozEhPVtkh8BEa+y/dX3vdOoPLgAzK277zVZUwkGQtr7EqoIaBLeYWLOOLvMseWJ4GaclTDtT86maeDzJj6hs= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:01:10 -0500 From: "Terry Blanton" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics In-Reply-To: <45BFC142.30400@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <69416.71702.qm@web62404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <45BFC142.30400@gmail.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72423 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com On 1/30/07, energymover@gmail.com wrote: > Do you have a link to the rexresearch vortex image? Oh, I'm sorry. I thought everyone ou true believer knew about RR :-) http://www.rexresearch.com/1index.htm It's really kewl! Terry From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 15:26:22 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UNQBxh002665; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:26:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UNQ95H002640; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:26:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:26:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=Vf3fHJu+71JMyN94flOwtPvjL/secQ0lNGEF4scKnf1hOeGiGtyBCX/dJB7cw9Vn; h=Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; From: "Stiffler Scientific" To: Subject: RE: [Vo]: Easy Unidirectional Force, get out your calculators... Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:26:06 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74493.B9A443E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: 31c212389edf83542716bda948492885d21e2f038728c8a1239a348a220c2609cca33015f1c4603296216c0a4442979fa2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 67.76.235.52 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72424 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74493.B9A443E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, a stupid question if I may? If I understand what you are saying, you assume the mag field creates a spatial imprint which remains for some length of time after the magnets are moved? If this is corrected, then while the magnets are moving, do they still retain a field? or is it latent and waiting to catch up? If we were to assume spin was the field generator, how can the lag be explained unless there is some underlying drag? Please ignore me if I just don't get it. -----Original Message----- From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:50 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Easy Unidirectional Force, get out your calculators... On 1/31/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to John Berry's message of Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:48:21 +1300: [snip] What about the reverse situation. The time it takes for the force from the bottom magnet to reach the top magnet? Wouldn't that produce the reverse effect? ...and what is supporting the top magnet...I think you need to look at the effect on *all* the forces involved before concluding that there is a net resultant uni-directional force. I think you misunderstand. Both magnets are held in the attractive position at a fixed distance, glued to each side of a piece of wood if you like. Then we will apply an even constant acceleration force. (or we simply assume gravity is the same as acceleration, shouldn't magnetic fields be bent by gravity if light is?) Now at any moment the magnetic field around the magnet is renewing it's magnetic flux, that is to say if you turn a magnet by 90 degrees this new magnetic field doesn't instantaneously propagate, it takes time. In the same way if I have a magnet which is attracting another magnet, and then I remove this magnet the other magnet must not immediately be aware that the other magnet has been withdrawn (turned off) so it still feels the same force for a period of time. Much the same is happening here, while the magnets are being accelerated together, when the magnetic flux from the bottom magnet gets to the top magnet it doesn't know that the position of the magnet that created it has now changed and has kept pace with the top magnet so it has a weaker field or a field that doesn't extend as far in front of it, so the top magnet is not as much attracted down. However the reverse is true for the field from the top magnet, it can't know the magnet has receded and so it has a more powerful effect of attracting the bottom magnet up the page than it should. This leads to a net force up the page in the direction of acceleration, or against gravity. In repulsion the force would be reversed. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74493.B9A443E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,=20 a stupid question if I may?
 
If I=20 understand what you are saying, you assume the mag field creates a = spatial=20 imprint which remains for some length of time after the magnets are=20 moved?
 
If=20 this is corrected, then while the magnets are moving, do they still = retain a=20 field? or is it latent and waiting to catch up?
 
If we=20 were to assume spin was the field generator, how can the lag be = explained unless=20 there is some underlying drag?
 
Please=20 ignore me if I just don't get it.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Berry=20 [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 = 4:50=20 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Easy = Unidirectional Force, get out your = calculators...



On 1/31/07, Robin van=20 Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>=20 wrote:=20
In=20 reply to  John Berry's message of Sun, 28 Jan 2007 = 23:48:21=20 +1300:
[snip]
What about the reverse situation. The time it = takes for=20 the force from the
bottom magnet to reach the top magnet? = Wouldn't that=20 produce the reverse effect?
...and what is supporting the top = magnet...I=20 think you need to look at the
effect on *all* the forces involved = before=20 concluding that there is a net
resultant uni-directional=20 force.

I think you misunderstand.
Both magnets are held in the=20 attractive position at a fixed distance, glued to each side of a piece = of wood=20 if you like.

Then we will apply an even constant acceleration = force.=20 (or we simply assume gravity is the same as acceleration, shouldn't = magnetic=20 fields be bent by gravity if light is?)

Now at any moment the = magnetic=20 field around the magnet is renewing it's magnetic flux, that is to say = if you=20 turn a magnet by 90 degrees this new magnetic field doesn't = instantaneously=20 propagate, it takes time.

In the same way if I have a magnet = which is=20 attracting another magnet, and then I remove this magnet the other = magnet must=20 not immediately be aware that the other magnet has been withdrawn = (turned off)=20 so it still feels the same force for a period of time.

Much = the same=20 is happening here, while the magnets are being accelerated together, = when the=20 magnetic flux from the bottom magnet gets to the top magnet it doesn't = know=20 that the position of the magnet that created it has now changed and = has kept=20 pace with the top magnet so it has a weaker field or a field that = doesn't=20 extend as far in front of it, so the top magnet is not as much = attracted down.=20

However the reverse is true for the field from the top magnet, = it=20 can't know the magnet has receded and so it has a more powerful effect = of=20 attracting the bottom magnet up the page than it = should.

This=20 leads to a net force up the page in the direction of acceleration, or = against=20 gravity.
In repulsion the force would be=20 reversed.


------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74493.B9A443E0-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 15:39:36 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UNdGFh014148; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:39:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UNdFRL014126; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:39:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:39:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=oKe4U2lmfMmg4/u5G9qcHP9P5jhjMn98lNIelrNAIYpqk7d/2A6HwJDfHUzKJtouiRZWXg+Zt7I2lQJJKsij2+1rPXfuMomUmClE6XiDgPNzJZJ6qVMAU1OeOeQqlfTwxe49Y6OvCBfJRRl/p7HHfo57n/nvYSZT7pyUYetC4gc= ; Message-ID: <20070130233911.70821.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:39:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene To: vortex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0UNdDOg014103 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72425 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Barium For the enlightenment of those who have aged gracefully into nerdism (born-again nerds) like myself, or who were afflicted that way ab initio, or... who are into arcane trivia and especially "elemental trivia" - then *Barium* element 56, is one of the most remarkable and strange elements in the periodic table. Here are a few factoids, with more on the way. But first ... why bother? - well - realize that barium has turned up in any number of alternative-energy devices. 1) Hamel machine (as magnets) 2) Sweet-SQM or VTA (as magnets) 3) MRA (as Barium titanate transducer) 4) SEG 5) Avramentko (Stiffler) device 6) Sonofusion (as piezo transducers) BTW for those interested in ongoing replication attempts of barium-based devices - a "must read" is: http://www.hyiq.org/Library/Floyd_Sweet.html .... the last update: http://www.hyiq.org/Library/26-09-06.html Among other curiosities (especially cosmological) - Barium itself as a reactive metal has a density of 3.5 g/cm^3, forty percent more than aluminum, BUT ... BaO which is what is found in magnet cores and transducers - has a density of 5.7 g/cm^3 which is an increase of over 61% above the metal. IOW the combination of the two atoms is much smaller in volume than either alone! Why the "!" ? Well you take a metal which is denser than aluminum, and combine it with a gas into a ceramic, and instead of the result averaging out to be less dense, it is considerably denser, indicating the the oxygen is "located", so-to-speak - way inside the original Barium atom and the duet has shrunken even more. This sort of thing happens with aluminum as well, and a few other light metals - whereas iron and the other metal (oxides) are far more typical, with the oxide being considerably less dense than the metal. At any rate the point of the increased density is this. Are the assorted facts that the oxygen atom is way "inside" the original Barium atom electron 'smear' and that oxygen itself has the isotope -18O (unusually abundant in the context of such a perfectly balanced 8/8 nucleus of 16O), and barium has that strange short half-life isomer (which we ought never to see as it is so short-lived), which isomer is the result of a highly irregular or distended nuclear packing arrangement - (that's a mouthful) ... are any or all of these oddities in any way related ? Is there any evidence that the "active" varieties of barium ferrites are enriched in 18O ... or that 135mBa [which might be the conduit in which any excess energy would arise] would it be is related to 18O enrichment [causing the nuclear distended arrangement]... or is there any evidence, even cosmological, that either of these isotopes effects/affects the other? Stay tuned... Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 15:44:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0UNhu3w013419; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:43:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0UNhtsj013400; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:43:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:43:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <102901c744c8$80b5bb10$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <45B4E6A7.4090408@pacbell.net> <700dr2tibm899oe14hjujcgs30j4ds28nh@4ax.com> <062301c74214$b8082870$3800a8c0@zothan> <080301c74384$899b0310$3800a8c0@zothan> <8ngrr2plaelg3fnem33m7hbuqfs4cqirm6@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 00:43:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0UNhrYR013380 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72426 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com 34 kV/cm ~ 3E6 V/m would be no better than air indeed, maybe the breakdown field is that of the gas in the pores? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery > In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:04:52 +0100: > Hi, > [snip] >>Interesting, can you provide the exact formula, and what are the absolute dielectric constant and the breakdown voltage strength (max V/m) for barium titanate? > > The exact formula is derived from the capacitance formulas for a flat plate > capacitor, and the energy stored in a capacitor. > > The energy density works out to 1/2 x epsilon x (breakdown voltage/unit > distance)^2. (This assumes that the absolute breakdown voltage is linear with > thickness, which is the best case scenario according to > http://www.wrightcap.com/ceramic-capacitors-material-spec.html . > > For Barium titanate I find figures of dielectric strength = 34 kV/cm and > dielectric constant of 7200 @ > http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/jecr/2005/00000015/00000002/00001460 > > which yields an energy density of 368 J/L. The EEStor crowd claim to have > material with a dielectric constant of 18000 (according to recent news IIRC), > and from the patent: > > "These coating materials have exceptional high voltage breakdown and when coated > onto the above material will increase the breakdown voltage of ceramics > comprised of the coated particles from 3.times.10.sup.6 V/cm of the uncoated > basis material to around 5.times.10.sup.6 V/cm or higher." > > So for the uncoated basis material they claim 3E6 V/cm (about 100 times higher > than from the other report here above - if I read correctly ?!? - I suspect this > should be 3E6 V/m). > > Thus we get two different energy densities, depending on whether or not there is > a typo. > > 1) 7.17 MJ/L > 2) 717 J/L > > Somehow, I suspect the latter is more likely to be correct. > > BTW they actually claim a breakdown strength of "5E6 V/cm", for their composite > design, so once again assuming this should be 5E6 V/m we would get a purported > energy density of 1992 J/L, or 19.92 MJ/L if the voltage claim is correct. > > BTW I seem to remember them claiming 52 kWh for a 100 lb device. If we assume a > density of 2.7 gm/mL (about average for ceramics) then this works out to 11 MJ/L > (not too far removed from (1) here above), so it seems they have either > discovered a substance with a breakdown voltage strength a hundred times higher > than air, or they have fallen victim to their own typo. > > BTW2 Try calculating the energy density of an electrolytic cap. for the fun of > it. :) > > In short, I think I would be betting on the Li ion batteries. ;) > >>Indeed atmospheric ingress can be an important factor, since the material seems to be a porous ceramic. The size of the pores, and the nature of the gas filling the pores could well be what determines the max V/m! >> >>Michel >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >>To: >>Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 11:35 PM >>Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery >> >> >>> In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Sat, 27 Jan 2007 14:11:55 +0100: >>> Hi, >>> [snip] >>>>Unless the coatings diminish the material's permeability to some atmospheric gases lowering it's breakdown voltage? >>>> >>>>Michel >>> >>> I would think that insulation from the atmosphere would be more cheaply and >>> easily obtained with a plastic sealant. >>> BTW there is no real reason to operate at such high voltages. By making the >>> dielectric material in the capacitor thinner, the capacitance per unit area is >>> increased, and also the total number of plates in a given volume can be >>> increased. Both of these together compensate for the drop in voltage, so in fact >>> any desired operating voltage can be accommodated. It turns out that the maximum >>> *energy density* of the device (J/m^3) is purely a function of the material used >>> as dielectric in the capacitor, and is proportional to the product of the >>> absolute dielectric constant of the material and the square of breakdown voltage >>> strength of the material (V/m)^2. >>> >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:50 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery >>>> >>>> >>> [snip] >>>>> The EEStor patent is US7033406 which I believe contains a design flaw. >>>>> They state that the base material (Barium Titanate) is coated with Aluminum >>>>> Oxide and Calcium Magnesium Aluminosilicate, which coatings are intended to >>>>> increase the breakdown voltage of the composite. They then go on to calculate >>>>> the energy density based upon this increased breakdown voltage. >>>>> >>>>> However IMO, what happens in reality is that a high voltage drop will occur >>>>> across the high breakdown voltage component, and a lesser voltage drop across >>>>> the Barium Titanate. IOW with such a composite construction, one can't simply >>>>> apply the full voltage to the entire material for the purposes of calculating >>>>> the energy density of the whole. The real energy density of any given material >>>>> is actually a constant, and no "trick" of design is going to get around that. >>>>> Since they specify that the breakdown voltage of Barium Titanate itself is only >>>>> 60% of that of the other materials, and since voltage appears squared in the >>>>> formula, the real energy density of the finished product is IMO going to be >>>>> nearer 60%^2 = 36% of their claimed energy density, which would be about 3 times >>>>> the energy density of lead-acid batteries. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Robin van Spaandonk >>> Regards, >>> >>> Robin van Spaandonk >>> >>> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >>> >>> Competition provides the motivation, >>> Cooperation provides the means. >>> > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > Competition provides the motivation, > Cooperation provides the means. > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 16:29:08 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0V0SoFK005257; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:28:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0V0SmLt005144; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:28:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:28:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=TQtygIlfFnBEnaCHm+WUJ9uxm7fbv3b5CDvV4OPlg9UEyd7VtpbScbOZxMN/pcXbBsfsiLDke9SSI2YT0hYDsLKz9L8jarEb573DG0jP/j9zdpXkECylCkPfJj+s+xzQkL2ewiqqCZ443nmOGD6jCMDATBDvEu5Zy+GQ+vI2nzA= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:28:45 +1300 From: "John Berry" To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Easy Unidirectional Force, get out your calculators... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_21794_8344972.1170203325116" References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72427 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ------=_Part_21794_8344972.1170203325116 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm not even quite sure which one of us doesn't get it ;) I'll just restate my position hoping it may help. What I'm saying is that any change in the magnetic field created by a magnet (permanent or electro) or any change in the position or orientation will not instantaneously be transmitted, the changes will occur at approximately the speed of light. This is a very great rate but is not instantaneous, and this should see the example I posted create a net force. consider 2 points in time: 1. S=N S=N |1 meter a second| 2. S=N S=N |1.5 meters a second| Now consider that the magnet to the right in the second point of time is reacting to the magnetic field created by the magnet to the left in the first point in time because the magnetic field from the magnet as stated earlier is not instantaneously transmitted, the other magnet has the same (only reversed) occur. You could if you like look at it from another point of view, gravity bends light which is (electro) magnetic, it should also bend a magnetic field pulling it down. A third way would be to look at the time dilation due to time passing ever so slightly slower the deeper you are in a gravity well, this would cause the magnet deeper in the gravity well to effectively put out less of a magnetic field (much the same as if it were a flash light it would put out less light from an outside perspective) so the magnet above it is less strongly effected, however the magnet above (from the perspective of the magnet below) is creating a stronger than expected field. Interestingly the same time dilation point of view does not appear to hold up for the acceleration situation, so maybe it's a bonus? Either way to want to look at it the magnetic field is distorted The only contradictory effect I can think of is that much like a plane, the magnetic field might be compresses in the direction of travel and rarefied in the opposite direction which could counter the effect, this wouldn't invalidate the basic idea of using time delay to create free energy or a unidirectional force only this version. At any rate I was just hoping that a calculation could be provided though I think it would be difficult to measure without an impressive setup. Here is another way to use time delay: (previously posted) Please take into account that it wasn't written to this list. It is mathematically certain OU. I am a major proponent of the aether, though I didn't like it to begin with it just makes far too much sense. What is odd is I'm going to present a Free Energy device that does not use the aether in any way. In part that's why I'm presenting it here, not sure I need this distraction, but it's so straight forward. It's the super charging effect, connect a decent voltage to a long piece of wire and current flows, if it is an open circuit it will take a while before it knows this and so it will send current through anyway charging it to a high voltage, it's the electrical analog of the verified OU water hammer effect in pipes, now if we take the speed of light in a vacuum 299,792,458 meters a second (in reality it will be slower than that which is good) and suppose a 200 meter transmission like, then double it to 400m because the wave gets to the end and must reflect, so that gives us 749,481 but we need some off time, so assume a 50% duty cycle, we have 374,740 hz, quite reasonable. Now what happens where all those electrons, amps and amps worth squeeze themselves into a piece of wire? Well you get a crazy high voltage. Maybe even high enough to release the electrons as effectively beta radiation. At any rate metals near it will be charged, now what does this sound like to you? Tesla, Ed Gray. We know the effect works, it occurs in long transmission lines (it happens every time, and it's killed people), there is nothing to doubt, and the math works out. It's only an issue on engineering it and making it practical, and unlike the mysterious forces of the aether we can calculate this one before we begin. Now I am in favor of doing this with a long line as that simplifies the switching we can make a compact long transmission line by making the type of coil Hooper (motional magnetic field guy) made, where we fold a wire back on it's self, by doing this we get a compact transmission line without the inductance of a coil (a normal coil will slow the all important rise time), a normal bucking bifilar coil won't work as the impulse will transfer inductively and will appear superluminal as it won't travel through the wire, but the Hooper coil or tightly wound bucking parallel caduceus (in other words a normal caduceus) will have both types of inductances cancel. (note: the caduceus coil must be single layer, note2: interestingly induction will still take place, only it will be weak microwave frequency oscillations) Of course any dual channel scope can easily measure the effectiveness of a delay line section. It would be possible to do this with mechanical switching if you had a delay line of over 200 meters, although it would be difficult. You could tap the power in 2 ways, one is by having the charges spray or arc to another electrode, the other obviously is by capacitive induction, in either case you going to want to surround it by an electrode as Ed Gray uses, not sure why perforation is required/preferred. This is a pretty straight forward Free Energy device, we can calculate it, work it out, run easy tests with oscilloscopes, calculate what kind of voltage we will be dealing with, it's not the mysterious type of Free Energy machine, it's a totally reliable mathematically certain proven Free Energy machine. We can either run it as stated above or instead use the principle of opening a closed circuit, though the frequency will need to be twice as high. One thing not noted above is that once charged, unless it sprays all of it's charges away the transmission line might need to be discharged, indeed in we want we may opt not to use another electrode and merely discharge the high voltage on the transmission line. This is also better in some ways than my favorite of gaining Free Energy from the aether as this is a single effect, it can't be misused. I recommend anyone not sure what to do should work on this, it's a Free Energy effect like no other, we know it's been done before (Tesla, Ed Gray, Swiss ML) and we can calculate it, it's success isn't Dependant on unknowns. (the effect is also clearly present every time you flick a light switch and hear speakers pop, it happens in transmission lines, and best of all it happens every single time) So if you don't know what to do, work on this. Another thing, this effect can also be used to create a unidirectional propulsive force by turning 2 electromagnets on and off in the right way, this has already been patented. Turn on coil 1 and it produces a magnetic field, turn coil 2 on and it is immediately attracted/repelled by the magnetic field of 1, however coil 1 does not instantaneously know that 2 has turned on and so for a moment 2 ir pushed while 1 is not, now once the field from 2 reaches 1, turn it off, it will still take coil 2 some time before it detects detects the field from 1 has changed and it will continue to experience force, if you do it right 1 need not have felt 2 at all. IF infact coil 1 does immediately react to coil 2 being turned on then that is a superluminal reaction, pretty cool (and generally considered impossible), otherwise the only other way this could fail to create a unidirectional force is if coil 1 which no longer has and current flowing through it (it's open circuit) feels a force even though it no longer has a current passing through it and is no longer creating a magnetic field which is kinda crazy. (Indeed if you had a huge coil in space, you could turn the coil off, turn it into scrap and then have a force placed on it, no way) There is a patent on this in the US btw. On 1/31/07, Stiffler Scientific wrote: > > John, a stupid question if I may? > > If I understand what you are saying, you assume the mag field creates a > spatial imprint which remains for some length of time after the magnets are > moved? > > If this is corrected, then while the magnets are moving, do they still > retain a field? or is it latent and waiting to catch up? > > If we were to assume spin was the field generator, how can the lag be > explained unless there is some underlying drag? > > Please ignore me if I just don't get it. > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:50 PM > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > *Subject:* Re: [Vo]: Easy Unidirectional Force, get out your > calculators... > > > > On 1/31/07, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > > In reply to John Berry's message of Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:48:21 +1300: > > [snip] > > What about the reverse situation. The time it takes for the force from > > the > > bottom magnet to reach the top magnet? Wouldn't that produce the reverse > > effect? > > ...and what is supporting the top magnet...I think you need to look at > > the > > effect on *all* the forces involved before concluding that there is a > > net > > resultant uni-directional force. > > > I think you misunderstand. > Both magnets are held in the attractive position at a fixed distance, > glued to each side of a piece of wood if you like. > > Then we will apply an even constant acceleration force. (or we simply > assume gravity is the same as acceleration, shouldn't magnetic fields be > bent by gravity if light is?) > > Now at any moment the magnetic field around the magnet is renewing it's > magnetic flux, that is to say if you turn a magnet by 90 degrees this new > magnetic field doesn't instantaneously propagate, it takes time. > > In the same way if I have a magnet which is attracting another magnet, and > then I remove this magnet the other magnet must not immediately be aware > that the other magnet has been withdrawn (turned off) so it still feels the > same force for a period of time. > > Much the same is happening here, while the magnets are being accelerated > together, when the magnetic flux from the bottom magnet gets to the top > magnet it doesn't know that the position of the magnet that created it has > now changed and has kept pace with the top magnet so it has a weaker field > or a field that doesn't extend as far in front of it, so the top magnet is > not as much attracted down. > > However the reverse is true for the field from the top magnet, it can't > know the magnet has receded and so it has a more powerful effect of > attracting the bottom magnet up the page than it should. > > This leads to a net force up the page in the direction of acceleration, or > against gravity. > In repulsion the force would be reversed. > > > ------=_Part_21794_8344972.1170203325116 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm not even quite sure which one of us doesn't get it ;)
I'll just restate my position hoping it may help.

What I'm saying is that any change in the magnetic field created by a magnet (permanent or electro) or any change in the position or orientation will not instantaneously be transmitted, the changes will occur at approximately the speed of light.

This is a very great rate but is not instantaneous, and this should see the example I posted create a net force.

consider 2 points in time:
1.  S=N  S=N  |1 meter a second|
2.   S=N  S=N  |1.5 meters a second|

Now consider that the magnet to the right in the second point of time is reacting to the magnetic field created by the magnet to the left in the first point in time because the magnetic field from the magnet as stated earlier is not instantaneously transmitted, the other magnet has the same (only reversed) occur.

You could if you like look at it from another point of view, gravity bends light which is (electro) magnetic, it should also bend a magnetic field pulling it down.

A third way would be to look at the time dilation due to time passing ever so slightly slower the deeper you are in a gravity well, this would cause the magnet deeper in the gravity well to effectively put out less of a magnetic field (much the same as if it were a flash light it would put out less light from an outside perspective) so the magnet above it is less strongly effected, however the magnet above (from the perspective of the magnet below) is creating a stronger than expected field.

Interestingly the same time dilation point of view does not appear to hold up for the acceleration situation, so maybe it's a bonus?

Either way to want to look at it the magnetic field is distorted

The only contradictory effect I can think of is that much like a plane, the magnetic field might be compresses in the direction of travel and rarefied in the opposite direction which could counter the effect, this wouldn't invalidate the basic idea of using time delay to create free energy or a unidirectional force only this version.

At any rate I was just hoping that a calculation could be provided though I think it would be difficult to measure without an impressive setup.


Here is another way to use time delay: (previously posted)
Please take into account that it wasn't written to this list.

It is mathematically certain OU.

I am a major proponent of the aether, though I didn't like it to begin with it just makes far too much sense.

What is odd is I'm going to present a Free Energy device that does not use the aether in any way.
In part that's why I'm presenting it here, not sure I need this distraction, but it's so straight forward.

It's the super charging effect, connect a decent voltage to a long piece of wire and current flows, if it is an open circuit it will take a while before it knows this and so it will send current through anyway charging it to a high voltage, it's the electrical analog of the verified OU water hammer effect in pipes, now if we take the speed of light in a vacuum 299,792,458 meters a second (in reality it will be slower than that which is good) and suppose a 200 meter transmission like, then double it to 400m because the wave gets to the end and must reflect, so that gives us 749,481 but we need some off time, so assume a 50% duty cycle, we have 374,740 hz, quite reasonable.

Now what happens where all those electrons, amps and amps worth squeeze themselves into a piece of wire? Well you get a crazy high voltage.
Maybe even high enough to release the electrons as effectively beta radiation.

At any rate metals near it will be charged, now what does this sound like to you?
Tesla, Ed Gray.
We know the effect works, it occurs in long transmission lines (it happens every time, and it's killed people), there is nothing to doubt, and the math works out.
It's only an issue on engineering it and making it practical, and unlike the mysterious forces of the aether we can calculate this one before we begin.

Now I am in favor of doing this with a long line as that simplifies the switching we can make a compact long transmission line by making the type of coil Hooper (motional magnetic field guy) made, where we fold a wire back on it's self, by doing this we get a compact transmission line without the inductance of a coil (a normal coil will slow the all important rise time), a normal bucking bifilar coil won't work as the impulse will transfer inductively and will appear superluminal as it won't travel through the wire, but the Hooper coil or tightly wound bucking parallel caduceus (in other words a normal caduceus) will have both types of inductances cancel.  (note: the caduceus coil must be single layer, note2: interestingly induction will still take place, only it will be weak microwave frequency oscillations)

Of course any dual channel scope can easily measure the effectiveness of a delay line section.
It would be possible to do this with mechanical switching if you had a delay line of over 200 meters, although it would be difficult.

You could tap the power in 2 ways, one is by having the charges spray or arc to another electrode, the other obviously is by capacitive induction, in either case you going to want to surround it by an electrode as Ed Gray uses, not sure why perforation is required/preferred.

This is a pretty straight forward Free Energy device, we can calculate it, work it out, run easy tests with oscilloscopes, calculate what kind of voltage we will be dealing with, it's not the mysterious type of Free Energy machine, it's a totally reliable mathematically certain proven Free Energy machine.

We can either run it as stated above or instead use the principle of opening a closed circuit, though the frequency will need to be twice as high.
One thing not noted above is that once charged, unless it sprays all of it's charges away the transmission line might need to be discharged, indeed in we want we may opt not to use another electrode and merely discharge the high voltage on the transmission line.

This is also better in some ways than my favorite of gaining Free Energy from the aether as this is a single effect, it can't be misused.

I recommend anyone not sure what to do should work on this, it's a Free Energy effect like no other, we know it's been done before (Tesla, Ed Gray, Swiss ML) and we can calculate it, it's success isn't Dependant on unknowns. (the effect is also clearly present every time you flick a light switch and hear speakers pop, it happens in transmission lines, and best of all it happens every single time)

So if you don't know what to do, work on this.
Another thing, this effect can also be used to create a unidirectional propulsive force by turning 2 electromagnets on and off in the right way, this has already been patented.
Turn on coil 1 and it produces a magnetic field, turn coil 2 on and it is immediately attracted/repelled by the magnetic field of 1, however coil 1 does not instantaneously know that 2 has turned on and so for a moment 2 ir pushed while 1 is not, now once the field from 2 reaches 1, turn it off, it will still take coil 2 some time before it detects detects the field from 1 has changed and it will continue to experience force, if you do it right 1 need not have felt 2 at all.

IF infact coil 1 does immediately react to coil 2 being turned on then that is a superluminal reaction, pretty cool (and generally considered impossible), otherwise the only other way this could fail to create a unidirectional force is if coil 1 which no longer has and current flowing through it (it's open circuit) feels a force even though it no longer has a current passing through it and is no longer creating a magnetic field which is kinda crazy. (Indeed if you had a huge coil in space, you could turn the coil off, turn it into scrap and then have a force placed on it, no way)

There is a patent on this in the US btw.

On 1/31/07, Stiffler Scientific < stifflerscientific@earthlink.net> wrote:
John, a stupid question if I may?
 
If I understand what you are saying, you assume the mag field creates a spatial imprint which remains for some length of time after the magnets are moved?
 
If this is corrected, then while the magnets are moving, do they still retain a field? or is it latent and waiting to catch up?
 
If we were to assume spin was the field generator, how can the lag be explained unless there is some underlying drag?
 
Please ignore me if I just don't get it.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 4:50 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Easy Unidirectional Force, get out your calculators...



On 1/31/07, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
In reply to  John Berry's message of Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:48:21 +1300:
[snip]
What about the reverse situation. The time it takes for the force from the
bottom magnet to reach the top magnet? Wouldn't that produce the reverse effect?
...and what is supporting the top magnet...I think you need to look at the
effect on *all* the forces involved before concluding that there is a net
resultant uni-directional force.

I think you misunderstand.
Both magnets are held in the attractive position at a fixed distance, glued to each side of a piece of wood if you like.

Then we will apply an even constant acceleration force. (or we simply assume gravity is the same as acceleration, shouldn't magnetic fields be bent by gravity if light is?)

Now at any moment the magnetic field around the magnet is renewing it's magnetic flux, that is to say if you turn a magnet by 90 degrees this new magnetic field doesn't instantaneously propagate, it takes time.

In the same way if I have a magnet which is attracting another magnet, and then I remove this magnet the other magnet must not immediately be aware that the other magnet has been withdrawn (turned off) so it still feels the same force for a period of time.

Much the same is happening here, while the magnets are being accelerated together, when the magnetic flux from the bottom magnet gets to the top magnet it doesn't know that the position of the magnet that created it has now changed and has kept pace with the top magnet so it has a weaker field or a field that doesn't extend as far in front of it, so the top magnet is not as much attracted down.

However the reverse is true for the field from the top magnet, it can't know the magnet has receded and so it has a more powerful effect of attracting the bottom magnet up the page than it should.

This leads to a net force up the page in the direction of acceleration, or against gravity.
In repulsion the force would be reversed.



------=_Part_21794_8344972.1170203325116-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 17:28:25 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0V1SGSY024297; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:28:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0V1SEMb024273; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:28:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:28:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <105501c744d7$12cbec00$3800a8c0@zothan> From: "Michel Jullian" To: References: <847235.75446.qm@web62402.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 02:28:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0V1SBUG024244 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72428 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Well I am surprised, I thought you were expecting free energy from such setups. If the equations remain the same we are going to find a net energy gain per cycle E-E' of zero, aren't we? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:02 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics > Michel Jullian wrote: > > I suppose that's one way to look at it. Does this > allow you to find E - E' ? > > > The equations remain the same. I'm merely suggesting > what we call PE is an existing form > of energy. Such PE could exist as electric field in > the case of charge, or magnetic field > in the case of the magnetic dipole moment, or gravity > field in the case of mass. > > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Paul > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:14 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using > *standard* physics > > > > > >> Michel Jullian wrote: > >>> Ok, electric then. Can you draw energy more than > >> once from the coulombic attraction of > >> a charged body of say +1 coulomb accelerating > towards > >> a fixed equal and opposite charge? I > >> mean for example: > >>> - How much energy E do you retrieve by releasing > it > >> from 1m away and stopping it 1cm > >> away? (say converting 100% of it's KE to heat) > >>> - Which energy E' must you expend to bring it > back > >> 1m away so you can retrieve E again > >> from the system? > >>> - What's the net energy E - E' pumped per cycle? > >>> > >>> Michel > >> > >> > >> It's the same as an electro-magnetic in that > energy is > >> moved. Two oppositely charge and > >> attracted objects accelerating toward each other > >> cancel each others E-field. So the > >> E-field energy is moved to KE. > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul Lowrance > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 17:31:03 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0V1Utvi001197; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:30:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0V1UrbC001167; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:30:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:30:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001301c744d7$7177ea10$a2027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:30:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C744A5.26495060" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: <6eqrnB.A.BS.NF_vFB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72429 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Barium This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C744A5.26495060 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C744A5.26495060" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C744A5.26495060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankHowdy Jones, A neat homily on Barium, another of the " quirky" elements. It nearly = bumps into Lithium on the road to being an oddity. The oil industry uses = Barite as a drilling fluid since it has an ideal " downhole weight". = Arkansas has Barite mines ( Magnet Cove).. hence the name MagCobar, = later Bariod owned and now Halliburton owned. I have oftem wondered why Barium has never been used in certain = lubricating systems. Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C744A5.26495060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Howdy Jones,
 
A neat homily on Barium, another of the " quirky" elements. It = nearly bumps=20 into Lithium on the road to being an oddity. The oil industry uses = Barite as a=20 drilling fluid since it has an ideal " downhole weight". Arkansas has = Barite=20 mines ( Magnet Cove).. hence the name MagCobar, later Bariod owned and = now=20 Halliburton owned.
 
I have oftem wondered why Barium has never been used in certain = lubricating=20 systems.
 
Richard

 

------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C744A5.26495060-- ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C744A5.26495060 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000e01c744d7$70d8eaf0$a2027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C744A5.26495060-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 17:44:46 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0V1ibDU006710; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:44:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0V1iaS5006698; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:44:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:44:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=1iasi+ZqGX504AC9WkoyIsAN90Luchf6hxPRs39YvvtvcHvKwfX05Xwsdtyw64V2wlENNRnyvcrBy57XcspRhFAz6ZzSabMqJGZoB1y3HiR9iIEt+9EXBzAWezxqak9EJeQLkyvevRsGNlsrLeVUYOjqRFH/O0dKQFHXUVQX3JE= ; Message-ID: <45BFF481.1070200@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:44:33 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <357653710701300850w60ad244dped6c36bfd15cd557@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <357653710701300850w60ad244dped6c36bfd15cd557@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72430 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Repelling Casimir effect David Jonsson wrote: > Isn't Teflon a good example? No. Teflon, like all polymers, is actually an example of the Casimir attractive force (in addition to Van der Waals, which is different) http://www.chemguide.co.uk/atoms/bonding/vdw.html Otherwise Teflon could not "stick" to itself. Teflon's anti-stick properties are related to the next larger geometric spectrum. At the molecular level up to a few tens of nm - if we have flat plates [or long strings of polymers] separated by a small distance we can measure an attractive force between the objects which varies via a power law down to the Forster radius of about 1-2 nm. This is due to the fact that virtual particles (so-called quantum "foam") whose wavelength exceeds the distance between the real particles are excluded - causing the vacuum energy (assorted *excluded* wavelengths and near-fields) to be lower between the objects than outside them. Since we define the vacuum as zero point energy we can say we have negative energy density in the region between the plates or strings. However when we replace plates or strings with objects with spherical surfaces in the range of a few nm in dia, we can often (but not always) observe a small repulsive force - but it is less than the corresponding attractive Casimir, and it has recently been noted that this could relate to excitonic properties rather than ZPE exclusion. Curved surfaces may serve to enhance (or reflect) the number of virtual particles or waves which are possible between the objects (or on their surface as near fields) as compared to the vacuum. We also get the repulsive Casimir if the dielectric constant of the space separating the plates has a value greater than the dielectric constant of one object but less than the other object. It is difficult to come up with a simple explanation which determines the sign of the force, even for perfectly conducting bodies, and the situation is worse for dielectrics. There should be lots of info out there on this, if you dig a little deeper than Wiki. Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 17:58:09 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0V1vpep002170; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:57:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0V1voGf002162; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:57:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:57:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=NNfsAaxRY7sh/HaNB7T8FpH0TaWLpUfH8dR7ym8jsKk+FdPr0cqo0pj2BEwTEFLW/C0oPSFujPejsPoXJ+tPcAcQAzNs9+fKuz5zIEfUTddGxGEQmWWCJq1nrn0xG+Z31Vne8lSdoayztNhEeLsL1Rf8w5HN6+xJ1GDkgM5Il4k= ; X-YMail-OSG: 1GOKGcYVM1l25wC6k.t_.uACSwPmkK58nvn7AzTCY06U5kSV Message-ID: <45BFF79D.2010706@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:57:49 -0800 From: Jones Beene User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com References: <001301c744d7$7177ea10$a2027841@xptower> In-Reply-To: <001301c744d7$7177ea10$a2027841@xptower> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72431 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Barium RC Macaulay wrote: > Arkansas has Barite mines (Magnet Cove)... hence the name MagCobar, now Halliburton owned. Hmmm ... that situation may involve something which goes beyond the obvious, right? I doubt that Halliburton cares all that much about the meager margins available for commodity items like drilling fluid. J. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 19:37:26 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0V3bIej029760; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:37:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0V3bGjO029741; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:37:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:37:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <001601c744e9$1a4fbad0$31027841@xptower> From: "RC Macaulay" To: Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:37:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C744B6.CEF02610" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72432 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: Barium This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C744B6.CEF02610 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0013_01C744B6.CEF33350" ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C744B6.CEF33350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankRobin wrote.. In reply to RC Macaulay's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:30:50 -0600: Hi Richard, [snip] I don't suppose there is any way you could avoid attaching a blank card = to your emauls (accidental spelling error deliberately left in;) is there? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk Howdy Robin, ??? to your question.. don't understand but.. I live near Dime Box Texas and that should say it all. 'Puters are not = allowed in the saloon so I have so sneak over to Muldoon if'n I want to = larn som'thin..=20 Richard ------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C744B6.CEF33350 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Robin wrote..

In reply to  RC Macaulay's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:30:50=20 -0600:
Hi Richard,
[snip]
I don't suppose there is any way you = could=20 avoid attaching a blank card to your
emauls (accidental spelling = error=20 deliberately left in;) is there?

Regards,

Robin van = Spaandonk

Howdy Robin,

??? to your question.. don't understand but..

I live near Dime Box Texas and that should say it all. 'Puters are = not=20 allowed in the saloon so I have so sneak over to Muldoon if'n I want to = larn=20 som'thin..

Richard

------=_NextPart_001_0013_01C744B6.CEF33350-- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C744B6.CEF02610 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <001101c744e9$1973b2b0$31027841@xptower> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C744B6.CEF02610-- From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 19:53:43 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0V3rXLH013169; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:53:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0V3rVLM013152; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:53:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:53:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: More on the Bettery Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:53:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8svvr2h75chlis5jm9tnv767hss18plnip@4ax.com> References: <45B4E6A7.4090408@pacbell.net> <700dr2tibm899oe14hjujcgs30j4ds28nh@4ax.com> <062301c74214$b8082870$3800a8c0@zothan> <080301c74384$899b0310$3800a8c0@zothan> <8ngrr2plaelg3fnem33m7hbuqfs4cqirm6@4ax.com> <102901c744c8$80b5bb10$3800a8c0@zothan> In-Reply-To: <102901c744c8$80b5bb10$3800a8c0@zothan> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.2.178] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 31 Jan 2007 03:53:29 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0V3rT9i013123 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72433 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Wed, 31 Jan 2007 00:43:54 +0100: Hi, [snip] >34 kV/cm ~ 3E6 V/m would be no better than air indeed, maybe the breakdown field is that of the gas in the pores? > You may be correct. A couple of other references: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://semiconductorglossary.com/default.asp?searchterm=silicon+dioxide%2C+SiO2 which yields values in the MV/cm range for some ceramics. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_strength which has 8 MV/m (not cm) for Strontium Titanate. (and 60 for Teflon). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:1wQMcK_VQaAJ:www.advceramics.com/geac/products/pyrolytic_bn/+%22dielectric+strength%22+ceramics&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a This site claims that Pyrolitic Boron Nitride has the highest dielectric strength known, which is 200 kV/mm which equates to 2 MV/cm (200 MV/m). Yet this is lower than EEStor are claiming for Barium Titanate. Nevertheless, it is in the same ballpark, and slightly better than the Wiki claim for Teflon . --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TX0-49N98HJ-V&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e20c7d9777c4a9257ddf5733c5ee4900 This one claims a "good" dielectric strength for sintered Barium Titanate with deliberate impurities of 65 kV/cm (6.5 MV/m). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TW0-44JDBYS-3N&_user=10&_coverDate=11%2F30%2F2001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6ca5ce5ed69bd6a08b50436cb92ee598 While not directly related to Barium Titanate, this one claims strengths up to 16.7 MV/m (not cm) for some thin coatings specifically made to be non-porous. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://news.thomasnet.com/news/1305 This appears to be from the Thomas registry, and has a mixture of products/manufacturers with dielectric strengths maxing out at about 400 V/mil = 15.7 MV/m (not cm). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.aist.go.jp/aist_e/latest_research/2004/20041019_3/20041019_3.html This once claims 150-300 kV/mm of greater (300 MV/m) for Alumina films. BTW the cold AD process may be of use to EEStor. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that there is a whole range of figures available and none of them appear to be reliable. (To be fair some people mention the difficulty of measuring this quantity). Perhaps reliable measurements can only be done in high vacuum? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 20:07:19 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0V47Bbb012516; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:07:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0V47Axa012496; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:07:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:07:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Barium Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:07:08 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7450s2108iekrf9nr3qt89fc19n91hfv6j@4ax.com> References: <20070130233911.70821.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20070130233911.70821.qmail@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.1/32.1088 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at oaamta03sl.mx.bigpond.com from [203.45.2.178] using ID rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au at Wed, 31 Jan 2007 04:07:07 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra6.eskimo.com id l0V4770V012471 Resent-Message-ID: <49a8rC.A.IDD.tXBwFB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72434 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:39:11 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] >Well you take a metal which is denser than aluminum, and combine it with a gas into a ceramic, and instead of the result averaging out to be less dense, it is considerably denser, indicating the the oxygen is "located", so-to-speak - way inside the original Barium atom and the duet has shrunken even more. This sort of thing happens with aluminum as well, and a few other light metals - whereas iron and the other metal (oxides) are far more typical, with the oxide being considerably less dense than the metal. Because Barium is a rather large atom, the valence electrons are far removed from the nucleus, and hence occupy a rather large diameter orbit (Atomic radius = 2.78 Angstrom). When combined with a small atom like oxygen which removes those valence electrons the remaining barium ion is considerably smaller (1.42 Angstrom), hence the increase in density. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 30 21:07:41 2007 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0V57Tuk010424; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:07:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0V57RBe010407; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:07:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:07:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=yKOFvFbsjGAyshchkTMrI2gobQdVo+Xz8Mtq21cpvIx6jdFseclUuAFzQLFVVfo/bdy5/po+jTuh943TqsrnHUKRdri2Bx8pkawgCoV/z/DKqNAWsIxfiVQ8rVPYgCLkqa/PNd733ZnRYykEMwna/t4gl2mbXOgK3dikrP42Pnc= ; Message-ID: <20070131050725.73100.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:07:25 -0800 (PST) From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [Vo]: Barium To: vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id l0V57Qwf010392 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72435 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Robin van Spaandonk > Because Barium is a rather large atom, the valence electrons are far removed from the nucleus, and hence occupy a rather large diameter orbit (Atomic radius = 2.78 Angstrom). When combined with a small atom like oxygen which removes those valence electrons the remaining barium ion is considerably smaller (1.42 Angstrom), hence the increase in density. Yes. And this picture of size variation in the oxide fits in with the notion that the barium nucleus (at least in one isotope), in the properly designed and "conditioned" ferrite core [magnet or transducer] could become artificially distended by several overlapping circumstances - such as the radical change in the Coloumb dynamics of this smaller structure. Since the radius is nearly halved - that indicates upwards to an eight times reduction in volume and that could be what is making the ceramic inherently unstable. They are very easy to break. Certainly, an imposed HV conditioning regime might accentuate the instability. It also brings to mind a possible way to chemically enhance the built-in instability by making one's own ferrites of slightly reduced oxidation level. Since these magnets are presumably made with iron oxide instead of metallic iron powder and since they are presumably fired in air, we might assume that they are fully oxidized. Even if not - I have never seen a manufacturer make reference to trying to accentuate the oxidation state below full. Perhaps using some unoxidized iron powder as a substitute for some of the oxide, and firing them in an anaerobic condition, this would create a built in imbalance in the dynamic of reduced molecular volume - with the free iron constantly "competing" for oxygen, which might make the variability in molecular volume [and corresponding Coulomb dynamics] even greater. Quien sabe? I am putting this on my "to do" list ... [pending winning tomorrow's Lotto] Jones From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 31 02:55:06 2007 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l0VAswqa001373; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 02:54:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id l0VAsoKL001305; Wed, 31 Jan 2007 02:54:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 02:54:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortex-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=OgaKBODdKDPW0jGz1epE36QuebLzuZrDDeYCLGPYncs/zwt3/TDeRTl0H6Hzq5LC; h=Received:Message-ID:X-Priority:Reply-To:X-Mailer:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Message-ID: <410-220071331105426615@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: fjsparber@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2005.2.15.0 (Windows) From: "Frederick Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Re Van de Graaf Antics Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 03:54:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-ELNK-Trace: 0b1c9d71006e06a171639b933de7ae6f7e972de0d01da94050463882775ada2705cc6092203185a8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.240.78.165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/72436 X-Loop: vortex-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request@eskimo.com ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I think you made my job easier, Stephen, My VDG pumps electrons from the globe to earth ground, but I intend to pump them to a roll of heavy duty aluminum foil with isolation from ground using an inverter and "D" batteries to power the VDG and digital scale. Hence a three point triangle of spheres within spheres, connected by cylinders within cylinders with pumping of electrons from the inner cylinders-spheres, should put a negative charge on the outer cylinders-spheres.... but I won't bet the store on it. All kinds of fun abstract art with this Caltech Electric Field applet: http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html Fred Stephen A. Lawrence wrote. Frederick Sparber wrote: Posted earlier: This Field Line Applet is cheaper than buying more VDGs. http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html If the force around a positively charged sphere is reduced by cladding it with a high dielectric constant material (K) It won't be, not unless the cladding has a net charge. The dielectric or other properties of the cladding aren't relevant to its ability to "shield" something, which can be done only by canceling the original field. (There's no such thing as a "true" electric shield, of course. At least according to conventional theory, the E field obeys the law of superposition, and you can't actually "block" it; you can only cancel it.) If you surround a charged sphere with any spherically symmetric material which does not, itself, carry a net charge, the result will be no change in the external field (outside the cladding) and no change in the net force acting on the system (sphere+cladding) due to an external field. it's external force/field will drop off accordingly: E = D/eo = D/(K*eo) = 1/K * 1/(4(pi) eo * Q/R^2 where D = 1/4(pi) * Q/R^2 Beware being mesmerized by the D field's behavior. Maxwell's equations are valid everywhere without any auxiliary fields (D and H) -- the aux fields are just a convenience, to make calculations easier inside matter where there are lots of mobile dipoles (both electric and magnetic), and to make the equations simpler in MKS units. In electrostatics a sheet of high-dielectric insulator material immersed in a static E field perpendicular to its surface can be modeled as a capacitor: its dipoles align with the E field, all internal dipole "end fields" cancel, and the two surfaces of the insulator acquire charges, one positive and the other negative. Like any parallel plate capacitor, of course, the field outside the dielectric is (nearly) zero, and it's not going to have any effect on the external field of something around which it's wrapped. Force = 1/K * 1/4(pi)eo * q* Q/R^2 Hence a 3-point craft with a cladded positive center sphere and three exposed negative spheres should repel the earth's excess negative charge up to an altitude that requires charge reversal for getting past the ionosphere. That's just it. It won't, if the cladding is neutral (no net charge). If it did you could close the cladding, move a bit, open the cladding, move back, close the cladding, and so forth, and voila, you have a PMM. With uncharged cladding opening and closing the cladding (by sliding it) should require insignificant work. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I think you made my job easier, Stephen,
 
My VDG pumps electrons from the globe to earth ground, but I intend
to pump them to a roll of heavy duty aluminum foil with isolation from
ground using an inverter and "D" batteries to power the VDG and
digital scale.
Hence a three point triangle of spheres within spheres, connected
by cylinders within cylinders with pumping of electrons from the
inner cylinders-spheres, should put a negative charge on the
outer cylinders-spheres.... but I won't bet the store on it.
 
All kinds of fun abstract art with this Caltech Electric Field applet:
 
Fred
 
Stephen A. Lawrence wrote.

Frederick Sparber wrote:
Posted earlier:

This Field Line Applet is cheaper than buying more VDGs.


http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html


If the force around a positively charged sphere is reduced by
cladding it with a high dielectric constant material (K)
It won't be, not unless the cladding has a net charge. The dielectric or other properties of the cladding aren't relevant to its ability to "shield" something, which can be done only by canceling the original field. (There's no such thing as a "true" electric shield, of course. At least according to conventional theory, the E field obeys the law of superposition, and you can't actually "block" it; you can only cancel it.) 
If you surround a charged sphere with any spherically symmetric material which does not, itself, carry a net charge, the result will be no change in the external field (outside the cladding) and no change in the net force acting on the system (sphere+cladding) due to an external field. 


it's external force/field will drop off accordingly: 
E = D/eo = D/(K*eo) = 1/K * 1/(4(pi) eo * Q/R^2

where D = 1/4(pi) * Q/R^2

Beware being mesmerized by the D field's behavior. Maxwell's equations are valid everywhere without any auxiliary fields (D and H) -- the aux fields are just a convenience, to make calculations easier inside matter where there are lots of mobile dipoles (both electric and magnetic), and to make the equations simpler in MKS units. 
In electrostatics a sheet of high-dielectric insulator material immersed in a static E field perpendicular to its surface can be modeled as a capacitor: its dipoles align with the E field, all internal dipole "end fields" cancel, and the two surfaces of the insulator acquire charges, one positive and the other negative. Like any parallel plate capacitor, of course, the field outside the dielectric is (nearly) zero, and it's not going to have any effect on the external field of something around which it's wrapped. 


Force = 1/K * 1/4(pi)eo * q* Q/R^2

Hence a 3-point craft with a cladded positive center sphere and
three exposed negative spheres should repel the earth's excess

negative charge up to an altitude that requires charge reversal for getting past the ionosphere. 
 
That's just it.  It won't, if the cladding is neutral (no net charge).


If it did you could close the cladding, move a bit, open the cladding, move back, close the cladding, and so forth, and voila, you have a PMM. With uncharged cladding opening and closing the cladding (by sliding it) should require insignificant work.

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 07:40:03 2007
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Terry Blanton wrote:
 > On 1/30/07, energymover@gmail.com  wrote:
 >
 >
 >> Do you have a link to the rexresearch vortex image?
 >
 > Oh, I'm sorry.  I thought everyone ou true believer knew about RR  :-)
 >
 > http://www.rexresearch.com/1index.htm
 >
 > It's really kewl!
 >
 > Terry


I knew of rexresearch, as I purchased nearly 3 feet stacked high of 
their infolios ~20 years ago. :-)   What I still don't know is what 
vortex image you are referring to.


Paul Lowrance

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On 1/31/07, energymover@gmail.com  wrote:

> I knew of rexresearch, as I purchased nearly 3 feet stacked high of
> their infolios ~20 years ago. :-)   What I still don't know is what
> vortex image you are referring to.


Let's see if I can attach it to a Vortex-l post.

Terry

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 08:28:16 2007
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Subject: RE: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics
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Hi Terry,

The image came through.  It looks nearly identical to the water vortex I
have.

I have found that the vortex is caused by the angular momentum of the medium
(water in my case) with regard to a unidirectional force (gravity in this
case) acting upon it.  As the medium spins orthogonal to the gravity, the
pressure of the faster moving molecules keeps them suspended in motion,
while the molecules at the center have a lower pressure and are attracted to
the Earth.  

If one is to create vortices in any other medium, the mechanics would be the
same.  To create an Aether vortex is actually quite easy since the Aether
already quantifies as a rotating magnetic field.  All that is necessary is
to contain the rotating magnetic field and apply a unidirectional force
through the center of rotation.  The unidirectional force could be caused by
permanent magnets or electrostatic electrodes placed above and below the
vortex.

If my assumptions are correct, the vorticity can be expressed as a unit
equal to kg^2 * m^3 / sec^3.  This would mean that vorticity is equal to
momentum times energy.  In the Aether Physics Model, this is written as 

vort = h * forc
vort = momt * enrg

Increasing either the angular momentum or the unidirectional force increases
the vorticity.  

I still have a lot of work to do with the math, but I am making headway.
Right now I'm building a wireless power transmitter, which is a scaled model
of Tesla's Wardencliffe system, so my time is limited.

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 9:53 AM
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics
> 
> On 1/31/07, energymover@gmail.com  wrote:
> 
> > I knew of rexresearch, as I purchased nearly 3 feet stacked high of
> > their infolios ~20 years ago. :-)   What I still don't know is what
> > vortex image you are referring to.
> 
> 
> Let's see if I can attach it to a Vortex-l post.
> 
> Terry

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 08:42:37 2007
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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:41:32 -0800
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics
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Michel Jullian wrote:
 > Well I am surprised, I thought you were expecting free energy from 
such setups.


As I've stated many times before, it's *temporary* energy, unless the 
two atoms annihilate.  What is unknown according to standard model is 
where the energy comes from.  In the case of two magnets, calling such 
energy PE is merely saying, "We don't know where such energy is 
stored."  Is it stored directly inside the electron in 3-dimensions, 
4-dimensions, 5-dimensions, or perhaps spread out in 4-dimensions, etc. 
etc.?




 > If the equations remain the same we are going to find a net energy 
gain per cycle E-E' of zero, aren't we?


It depends on the situation. I believe energy is always conserved, but 
you can indeed rob some of that energy from the two iron atoms.  For 
example, consider two separated iron atoms.  The two iron atoms 
accelerate toward each other mostly due to their magnetic attraction.  
Such KE is stored in a battery.  This results in energy stored in our 
battery, but to repeat the process the two iron atoms must be 
separated.  That's why I call it temporary energy.  Such gained energy 
is real, but you must give up the energy if you separate the two iron 
atoms.  Of course it's possible ambient temperature could separate the 
two iron atoms for you. :-)

On the other hand, if one of the iron atoms were made of anti-matter 
then the two atoms would annihilate.  Therefore you could ***keep*** 
then energy saved in the battery as gained from KE. :-)



Regards,
Paul Lowrance



 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: Paul
 > To: 
 > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:02 AM
 > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics
 >
 >
 >> Michel Jullian wrote:
 >>> I suppose that's one way to look at it. Does this
 >> allow you to find E - E' ?
 >>
 >>
 >> The equations remain the same.  I'm merely suggesting
 >> what we call PE is an existing form
 >> of energy. Such PE could exist as electric field in
 >> the case of charge, or magnetic field
 >> in the case of the magnetic dipole moment, or gravity
 >> field in the case of mass.
 >>
 >>
 >> Regards,
 >> Paul Lowrance
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>> ----- Original Message -----
 >>> From: Paul
 >>> To: 
 >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:14 AM
 >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using
 >> *standard* physics
 >>>
 >>>> Michel Jullian wrote:
 >>>>> Ok, electric then. Can you draw energy more than
 >>>> once from the coulombic attraction of
 >>>> a charged body of say +1 coulomb accelerating
 >> towards
 >>>> a fixed equal and opposite charge? I
 >>>> mean for example:
 >>>>> - How much energy E do you retrieve by releasing
 >> it
 >>>> from 1m away and stopping it 1cm
 >>>> away? (say converting 100% of it's KE to heat)
 >>>>> - Which energy E' must you expend to bring it
 >> back
 >>>> 1m away so you can retrieve E again
 >>>> from the system?
 >>>>> - What's the net energy E - E' pumped per cycle?
 >>>>>
 >>>>> Michel
 >>>>
 >>>> It's the same as an electro-magnetic in that
 >> energy is
 >>>> moved.  Two oppositely charge and
 >>>> attracted objects accelerating toward each other
 >>>> cancel each others E-field. So the
 >>>> E-field energy is moved to KE.
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>> Regards,
 >>>> Paul Lowrance

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Terry Blanton wrote:
 > On 1/31/07, energymover@gmail.com  wrote:
 >
 >> I knew of rexresearch, as I purchased nearly 3 feet stacked high of
 >> their infolios ~20 years ago. :-)   What I still don't know is what
 >> vortex image you are referring to.
 >
 >
 > Let's see if I can attach it to a Vortex-l post.


Nice.

Here's an interesting 4-dimensional vortex of an atom.  The flat plane 
slicing through the center would be the 3-dimensions; i.e., where the 
two vortexes meet.
http://www.unarius.org/plasma/vortex.gif


Paul Lowrance
 

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Hi Paul,


> Here's an interesting 4-dimensional vortex of an atom.  The flat plane
> slicing through the center would be the 3-dimensions; i.e., where the
> two vortexes meet.
> http://www.unarius.org/plasma/vortex.gif

This is a very nice image.

Are all the dimensions length dimensions?  What is the mathematical and
physical basis for the spirals coming out of the poles?

I am aware there is a twist in the magnetic field at the poles, as can be
readily seen when placing a magnet near a CRT screen.  But it does not seem
to exhibit the number of turns in the drawing.

Dave

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Subject: [Vo]: Re:  Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics

Hey - that image came through. I didn't know that it was possible to 
attach images to vortex posts, as it would often be helpful.

What is the size limit?




Terry Blanton wrote:
> On 1/31/07, energymover@gmail.com  wrote:
> 
>> I knew of rexresearch, as I purchased nearly 3 feet stacked high of
>> their infolios ~20 years ago. :-)   What I still don't know is what
>> vortex image you are referring to.
> 
> 
> Let's see if I can attach it to a Vortex-l post.
> 
> Terry
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 

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David Thomson wrote:
 > Hi Paul,
 >
 >
 >> Here's an interesting 4-dimensional vortex of an atom.  The flat plane
 >> slicing through the center would be the 3-dimensions; i.e., where the
 >> two vortexes meet.
 >> http://www.unarius.org/plasma/vortex.gif
 >
 > This is a very nice image.



Those are great questions.  I'm still in the process of trying to 
untangle the information since it's from a metaphysic source. Being 
open-minded I'm studying the source because most of the information 
meshes very well with my thoughts on reality. I would highly recommend 
one of their books.  At 540 pages, hardback, it's a bargain for $0.25.  
Yes, that's 25 cents plus $2.50 S&H, tax free. :-)  Actually there's 
another guy on ebay selling it for one penny, but $3.50 S&H.

Title: Infinite Concept of Cosmic Creation

http://cgi.ebay.com/Infinite-Concept-of-Cosmic-Creation-by-Ernest-L-Nor_W0QQitemZ110065440758QQihZ001QQcategoryZ378QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=%22infinite+concept+of+cosmic+creation%22&category0=&submitSearch=Search

Note this book was published in 1956!

Roughly 20 years ago I glanced through the book, and truly such 
information did not mess as well, and therefore went over my head.  Last 
month I glanced through the book and was surprised at how much 
information made more sense, but left it at that.  A few days ago I once 
again glanced through the book and was shocked at the connections I'm 
unraveling.  Most of such connections were ignited by my recent physics 
simulation research.  Every day I become more amazed ... no, dumb 
founded how nature (our universe) accomplishes things, at its 
intelligence.  It's nearly impossible to describe unless one delves deep 
in the attempts of simulating nature. There are various problems that 
seem so overwhelmingly impossible to overcome, yet nature accomplishes 
such tasks on a grand scale, infinity so.  Is there truly an upper limit 
how large reality is?  Seems not.  Is there a lower limit how small 
things are?  Look at the biggest thing in physics theory now, M-theory.  
Seems there's no limit.  Hypothetically lets say there is a limit, even 
though there's probably not. Would it resemble raw information as in 
memory?  Trying to simulate a small area of such raw memory is difficult 
enough.  Multiply that by infinity.  It blows me away!!

Here's an *attempt* to answer some of your questions.




 > Are all the dimensions length dimensions?
 >  What is the mathematical and
 > physical basis for the spirals coming out of the poles?
 >
 > I am aware there is a twist in the magnetic field at the poles, as can be
 > readily seen when placing a magnet near a CRT screen.  But it does 
not seem
 > to exhibit the number of turns in the drawing.


I'm not sure how to answer since the author states time and space in our 
physical universe is misunderstood.  In the book there's a drawing of 
space and time, which is drawn as a sine wave.  It shows one unit of 
"space factor" to be one wavelength. I believe what they call "space 
factor" is the smallest unit of distance in our physical universe.  They 
continue with, "Time factor energy moving from A to B, or 1/2 wave"   
Now I understand that bit of information is most likely totally 
meaningless to you.  It's only when you juggle thousands of such 
statements taken from the book that you begin to perceive a glimpse how 
it all makes sense.  In a nutshell it's claimed that velocity, time, 
speed are 3-dimensional illusions.  That what we experience is an 
artifact of 3-dimensions.  In such 3-dimensions space and time are 
split, but when viewed from the 4th and higher dimensions space and time 
is connected.  For example, when viewing the atom from at least 
4-dimensions they claim the atoms energy wave traverses somewhat like a 
circle, similar to how planets circle the sun, except we are dealing 
with wave patterns.  They claim light from distant stars travels here in 
an instant. That's just a tidbit from the book, written in 1956.  Today 
there are well acknowledged physicists who adhere to the interpretation 
that photons do not travel through space, but the actual energy exchange 
occurs instantly.  Have you studied the double slit single electron or 
single photon experiments?  It appears the only theory to predict such 
experiments by messing with time.

The book continually refers to 4th, 5th, and higher dimensional 
vortexes. Also there's a lot of talk about 2X and 1/2X harmonics, 
induction, hysteresis, how energy is transferred and split by these 
methods from the higher dimensions to lower.  I could go on and on 
mentioning various effects describe in the book such as polarity 
reversals, to EMF bands, to how gravity works.  All I can say is that 
it's very interesting, and it would take such a bizarre theory to 
explain experiments such as the double slit.

 

Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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From: "Terry Blanton" 
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics
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On 1/31/07, Jones Beene  wrote:
> Hey - that image came through. I didn't know that it was possible to
> attach images to vortex posts, as it would often be helpful.
>
> What is the size limit?

40 kB according to the subscription message; however, you have to
allow for MIME encoding and any texting overheads; so, I'd shrink 'em
down to 30 kB.

Terry

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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:11:57 -0500
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Subject: [Vo]: Energy and Money




Energy and money are two sides of the same coin.

When energy is used money is spent.
When energy is stored, money is saved.

By energy I mean only the precise _technical definition_
of energy.

Energy is no more or less real than money.
Energy is no more or less conserved than money.

Harry


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Harry Veeder wrote:
 >
 >
 > Energy and money are two sides of the same coin.
 >
 > When energy is used money is spent.
 > When energy is stored, money is saved.
 >
 > By energy I mean only the precise _technical definition_
 > of energy.
 >
 > Energy is no more or less real than money.
 > Energy is no more or less conserved than money.
 >
 > Harry


One day the cost of energy will be no more than the maintenance of a 
"free energy" machine?


Paul Lowrance

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Subject: [Vo]: Future Energy Source?  Barium, Pt.II

 From the "truth is stranger than even science fiction" department...

Beyond the cast and prophetic plot of Brazil, the movie, there is 
Brazil, the nuts. I'm not talking solely of nuts like Harry T. either.

Brazil nuts, or more specifically the minerals extracted from the tree 
itself, are poised to become an alternative future energy source - and 
we're not talking high calories from the lipids. Even if Barium does not 
turn out to be an active element for LENR [direct conversion in the 
manner previously mentioned] there is the 'big sister' of barium lurking 
in the wookwork (and is she ever overbarium ? well, yes)

BTW Barium and Radium are as close as any two sisters can be. A least 
they have their periods together  that is to say - in the second 
column of the Periodic Table.

To almost any plant, calcium is essential and to almost any plant - Ba 
and Ra "look" just like the little sister - Calcium. This could be a 
problem for vegetarians. But the radium concentration in food is usually 
not an issue. Brazil nuts, however, are thousands of times higher in Ra 
and Ba than other foods, and the tree itself even more so. This is more 
a property of an extensive root system, but in a few areas of West 
Africa, where the soil is rich in 'mother U' and her many toxic 
daughters, the total potential nuclear energy content of one Brazil nut 
tree (yes, they grow well in African jungles too) can be in the range of 
megawatts.

Here is more of this nutty spread with a nice pic, but after you 
understand the situation, you may lose your appetite for this treat.

http://www.orau.org/PTP/collection/consumer%20products/brazilnuts.htm

Jones

More tree-trivia: The Brazil nut is among the largest of jungle trees, 
reaching 60 m tall and 2 m trunk diameter at maturity, weighing close to 
a million kg. and living for 500 years or more. Brazil nuts usually only 
produce fruit in virgin rain forests, as they require a special orchid 
which has evolved alongside the species and that orchid is responsible, 
in a roundabout way, for insuring the pollinating the flowers which are 
two high up to attract most bees. The orchids produce a scent that 
attracts male orchid bees, and the male bees process that scent to 
attract females. Without the orchid in the canopy, the bees cannot mate 
or find the flowers, and the lack of bees means the fruit does not get 
pollinated. Multi-layered parasitism at its best, and another reason why 
the jungle ecosystem is so delicate.

It is not clear if Barium or radium are invoved in the biology of the 
orchid, the bee, or the scent, but it is fascinating interaction. One is 
led to wonder if the orchid glows in the dark  but there is no doubt 
that either way, a clever marketeer could 'make a killing' on the orchid 
extract perfume.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 15:02:11 2007
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From: "Michel Jullian" 
To: 
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics
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Temporary energy, which you can retrieve once but have to expend entirely to be able to retrieve it once more. Well, we seem to agree entirely after all. No overunity on a full cycle can be got from the fundamental forces. No PMMs of the first kind can work.

As to the origin of this one time energy, it's known IMHO, it's the work performed by the fundamental force, like when you push your car the KE of the car is equal to the work of your pushing force, what else? So the real mystery is the fundamental force which does the work in fact, whether gravitational, electric or magnetic.

Now maybe there are ways to pump a lot of energy on a one time basis, e.g. by emptying the oceans slowly into a black hole via a turbine? Wouldn't qualify as renewable of course, but the sun's energy is not really renewable either :)

Michel

----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics


> Michel Jullian wrote:
> > Well I am surprised, I thought you were expecting free energy from 
> such setups.
> 
> 
> As I've stated many times before, it's *temporary* energy, unless the 
> two atoms annihilate.  What is unknown according to standard model is 
> where the energy comes from.  In the case of two magnets, calling such 
> energy PE is merely saying, "We don't know where such energy is 
> stored."  Is it stored directly inside the electron in 3-dimensions, 
> 4-dimensions, 5-dimensions, or perhaps spread out in 4-dimensions, etc. 
> etc.?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > If the equations remain the same we are going to find a net energy 
> gain per cycle E-E' of zero, aren't we?
> 
> 
> It depends on the situation. I believe energy is always conserved, but 
> you can indeed rob some of that energy from the two iron atoms.  For 
> example, consider two separated iron atoms.  The two iron atoms 
> accelerate toward each other mostly due to their magnetic attraction.  
> Such KE is stored in a battery.  This results in energy stored in our 
> battery, but to repeat the process the two iron atoms must be 
> separated.  That's why I call it temporary energy.  Such gained energy 
> is real, but you must give up the energy if you separate the two iron 
> atoms.  Of course it's possible ambient temperature could separate the 
> two iron atoms for you. :-)
> 
> On the other hand, if one of the iron atoms were made of anti-matter 
> then the two atoms would annihilate.  Therefore you could ***keep*** 
> then energy saved in the battery as gained from KE. :-)
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
> 
> 
> 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Paul
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:02 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics
> >
> >
> >> Michel Jullian wrote:
> >>> I suppose that's one way to look at it. Does this
> >> allow you to find E - E' ?
> >>
> >>
> >> The equations remain the same.  I'm merely suggesting
> >> what we call PE is an existing form
> >> of energy. Such PE could exist as electric field in
> >> the case of charge, or magnetic field
> >> in the case of the magnetic dipole moment, or gravity
> >> field in the case of mass.
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Paul Lowrance
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: Paul
> >>> To: 
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:14 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using
> >> *standard* physics
> >>>
> >>>> Michel Jullian wrote:
> >>>>> Ok, electric then. Can you draw energy more than
> >>>> once from the coulombic attraction of
> >>>> a charged body of say +1 coulomb accelerating
> >> towards
> >>>> a fixed equal and opposite charge? I
> >>>> mean for example:
> >>>>> - How much energy E do you retrieve by releasing
> >> it
> >>>> from 1m away and stopping it 1cm
> >>>> away? (say converting 100% of it's KE to heat)
> >>>>> - Which energy E' must you expend to bring it
> >> back
> >>>> 1m away so you can retrieve E again
> >>>> from the system?
> >>>>> - What's the net energy E - E' pumped per cycle?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Michel
> >>>>
> >>>> It's the same as an electro-magnetic in that
> >> energy is
> >>>> moved.  Two oppositely charge and
> >>>> attracted objects accelerating toward each other
> >>>> cancel each others E-field. So the
> >>>> E-field energy is moved to KE.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Paul Lowrance
>

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 15:17:20 2007
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics
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Indeed the double slit experiment with only one single photon or electron traversing the experiment at a time is an awesome proof of the shortcomings of our common sense (mine in any case)! Can anyone _really_ make sense of why they form interference patterns? I mean, the QM equations will yield those patterns all right, but does QM itself make common sense?

Michel

----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics


> David Thomson wrote:
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> >
> >> Here's an interesting 4-dimensional vortex of an atom.  The flat plane
> >> slicing through the center would be the 3-dimensions; i.e., where the
> >> two vortexes meet.
> >> http://www.unarius.org/plasma/vortex.gif
> >
> > This is a very nice image.
> 
> 
> 
> Those are great questions.  I'm still in the process of trying to 
> untangle the information since it's from a metaphysic source. Being 
> open-minded I'm studying the source because most of the information 
> meshes very well with my thoughts on reality. I would highly recommend 
> one of their books.  At 540 pages, hardback, it's a bargain for $0.25.  
> Yes, that's 25 cents plus $2.50 S&H, tax free. :-)  Actually there's 
> another guy on ebay selling it for one penny, but $3.50 S&H.
> 
> Title: Infinite Concept of Cosmic Creation
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Infinite-Concept-of-Cosmic-Creation-by-Ernest-L-Nor_W0QQitemZ110065440758QQihZ001QQcategoryZ378QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
> 
> http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=%22infinite+concept+of+cosmic+creation%22&category0=&submitSearch=Search
> 
> Note this book was published in 1956!
> 
> Roughly 20 years ago I glanced through the book, and truly such 
> information did not mess as well, and therefore went over my head.  Last 
> month I glanced through the book and was surprised at how much 
> information made more sense, but left it at that.  A few days ago I once 
> again glanced through the book and was shocked at the connections I'm 
> unraveling.  Most of such connections were ignited by my recent physics 
> simulation research.  Every day I become more amazed ... no, dumb 
> founded how nature (our universe) accomplishes things, at its 
> intelligence.  It's nearly impossible to describe unless one delves deep 
> in the attempts of simulating nature. There are various problems that 
> seem so overwhelmingly impossible to overcome, yet nature accomplishes 
> such tasks on a grand scale, infinity so.  Is there truly an upper limit 
> how large reality is?  Seems not.  Is there a lower limit how small 
> things are?  Look at the biggest thing in physics theory now, M-theory.  
> Seems there's no limit.  Hypothetically lets say there is a limit, even 
> though there's probably not. Would it resemble raw information as in 
> memory?  Trying to simulate a small area of such raw memory is difficult 
> enough.  Multiply that by infinity.  It blows me away!!
> 
> Here's an *attempt* to answer some of your questions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Are all the dimensions length dimensions?
> >  What is the mathematical and
> > physical basis for the spirals coming out of the poles?
> >
> > I am aware there is a twist in the magnetic field at the poles, as can be
> > readily seen when placing a magnet near a CRT screen.  But it does 
> not seem
> > to exhibit the number of turns in the drawing.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how to answer since the author states time and space in our 
> physical universe is misunderstood.  In the book there's a drawing of 
> space and time, which is drawn as a sine wave.  It shows one unit of 
> "space factor" to be one wavelength. I believe what they call "space 
> factor" is the smallest unit of distance in our physical universe.  They 
> continue with, "Time factor energy moving from A to B, or 1/2 wave"   
> Now I understand that bit of information is most likely totally 
> meaningless to you.  It's only when you juggle thousands of such 
> statements taken from the book that you begin to perceive a glimpse how 
> it all makes sense.  In a nutshell it's claimed that velocity, time, 
> speed are 3-dimensional illusions.  That what we experience is an 
> artifact of 3-dimensions.  In such 3-dimensions space and time are 
> split, but when viewed from the 4th and higher dimensions space and time 
> is connected.  For example, when viewing the atom from at least 
> 4-dimensions they claim the atoms energy wave traverses somewhat like a 
> circle, similar to how planets circle the sun, except we are dealing 
> with wave patterns.  They claim light from distant stars travels here in 
> an instant. That's just a tidbit from the book, written in 1956.  Today 
> there are well acknowledged physicists who adhere to the interpretation 
> that photons do not travel through space, but the actual energy exchange 
> occurs instantly.  Have you studied the double slit single electron or 
> single photon experiments?  It appears the only theory to predict such 
> experiments by messing with time.
> 
> The book continually refers to 4th, 5th, and higher dimensional 
> vortexes. Also there's a lot of talk about 2X and 1/2X harmonics, 
> induction, hysteresis, how energy is transferred and split by these 
> methods from the higher dimensions to lower.  I could go on and on 
> mentioning various effects describe in the book such as polarity 
> reversals, to EMF bands, to how gravity works.  All I can say is that 
> it's very interesting, and it would take such a bizarre theory to 
> explain experiments such as the double slit.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
>

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Michel Jullian wrote:
 > Temporary energy, which you can retrieve once but have to expend
 > entirely to be able to retrieve it once more.


Under normal circumstances, yes.  Note that I've stated from the start 
of this thread that it's "temporary energy".  On the other hand, read my 
previous posts regarding anti-matter colliding with matter. In such a 
case *it is possible to keep such energy.* :-)




 > Well, we seem to agree entirely after all. No overunity on a full 
cycle can be got from
 > the fundamental forces. No PMMs of the first kind can work.


We agree, but take note this discussion never had anything to do with 
overunity.  It has to do with the fact that standard physics has no idea 
where the energy comes from in the case of the electrons magnetic dipole 
moment.  Energy is clearly manifesting as two magnets accelerate toward 
each other. Standard physics cannot see, probe, poke, touch such PE.   
Again, the point is that we can glimpse where such energy comes from 
when studying two attracted accelerating electro-magnets.




 > As to the origin of this one time energy, it's known IMHO, it's the 
work performed by
 > the fundamental force, like when you push your car the KE of the car 
is equal to the work
 > of your pushing force, what else? So the real mystery is the 
fundamental force which does
 > the work in fact, whether gravitational, electric or magnetic.


Such energy is unknown regarding the electrons magnetic dipole moment.  
One day we'll known, but for now it's just magic PE, lol.  Again, the 
electro-magnet clearly demonstrates the energy comes from whatever 
sustains the magnetic dipole moment.  For now physicists simply add the 
energy in the equations and call it PE.  Obviously we are not *required* 
to know where it comes from.  The point is such energy exists and we 
have yet to find the reservoir.  Obviously the energy exists, in the 
case of two magnets accelerating, and the fact that it requires 
appreciable amount of energy to create such particles.  So it requires 
energy to create the electron and such energy is still there. 


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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> From: Michel Jullian
>
> Indeed the double slit experiment with only one single photon or
> electron traversing the experiment at a time is an awesome proof
> of the shortcomings of our common sense (mine in any case)! Can
> anyone _really_ make sense of why they form interference
> patterns? I mean, the QM equations will yield those patterns all
> right, but does QM itself make common sense?
>
> Michel

The only logical explanation my brain can make out of the paradoxical double
slit experiment is the notion that what we perceive, and more importantly
MEASURE, as "particles" are perhaps not really ISOLATED pinpoints
of –matter- after all.

The only rational explanation I can comprehend is that what we define as
ISOLATED pin-points of "matter" are most likely waves of EM energy that have
coalesced or configured themselves into patterns that our measuring devices,
which reside in the macro world, interpret as "physical" particles. Of
course, WE are the ones doing all the interpreting. It's as if there is an
almost desperate-like human tendency to fit as much bizzare QM behavior into
the more framiliar rules of the macro world, cuz that's the only reality our
brains can make any sense out of. And indeed, these highly concentrated EM
patterns may occasionally seem to take on the characteristics of "matter"
which we human beings find so comforting. But to define these QM patterns
(i.e. photons) as ISOLATED pin points of "matter" does not necessarily mean
it's the most accurate interpretation of what is really going on under the
hood.

Oh dear, caught in the act of pontificating, once again.

>From a strictly philosophical non-scientific POV it all seems to come down
to MAYA, the illusion of reality that we all seem to be so entranced with.
The sand box, after all, with all of its inherent granularity can
occasionally be a fun place in which to build temporary sand castles in.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com



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Subject: [Vo]: Re: Future Energy Source?  Barium, Pt.II

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

 > Mega Whats??


Mega Nuts?

Sorry for the higher than average number of typos, malapropisms etc. My 
copy editor failed to show-up for work once again today... 

Could be a megawatt-year for all I know. A thousand ton tree, however, 
even if one just prunes off a tenth of its mass per year (whatever will 
regrow) ... say on a tree plantation, might yield a fair amount of 
barium and radium, after the cellulose is turned into biodiesel.

Barium is already cheap, however, and this would not be productive, even 
if it were to be shown to be an active LENR material (in the IPE sense). 
Eighty years ago, Radium was the "in thing" for all kinds of uses and 
was selling for what would be today about $100,000 US per ounce, and 
almost anyone with cash could buy it. Now it illegal to own here in any 
useful weight for energy. Were a reliable low-tech source for it to be 
found for it however, it might be useful once again- at least in the 
Third World for both energy and other uses. Don't forget that an easy 
way to "back-into" a hydrogen economy with no need for methane is the 
thermoradiolysis or thermochemical radiolysis of H2O.

Needless to say ... the post was not entirely serious. I found the 
reference to Brazil nuts on the Oak Ridge site so enticing that I had to 
shell-out a few nutty ideas....

J.

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OrionWorks wrote:
 >> From: Michel Jullian
 >>
 >> Indeed the double slit experiment with only one single photon or
 >> electron traversing the experiment at a time is an awesome proof
 >> of the shortcomings of our common sense (mine in any case)! Can
 >> anyone _really_ make sense of why they form interference
 >> patterns? I mean, the QM equations will yield those patterns all
 >> right, but does QM itself make common sense?
 >>
 >> Michel
 >
 > The only logical explanation my brain can make out of the paradoxical 
double
 > slit experiment is the notion that what we perceive, and more importantly
 > MEASURE, as "particles" are perhaps not really ISOLATED pinpoints
 > of –matter- after all.
 >
 > The only rational explanation I can comprehend is that what we define as
 > ISOLATED pin-points of "matter" are most likely waves of EM energy 
that have
 > coalesced or configured themselves into patterns that our measuring 
devices,
 > which reside in the macro world, interpret as "physical" particles. Of
 > course, WE are the ones doing all the interpreting. It's as if there 
is an
 > almost desperate-like human tendency to fit as much bizzare QM 
behavior into
 > the more framiliar rules of the macro world, cuz that's the only 
reality our
 > brains can make any sense out of. And indeed, these highly 
concentrated EM
 > patterns may occasionally seem to take on the characteristics of "matter"
 > which we human beings find so comforting. But to define these QM patterns
 > (i.e. photons) as ISOLATED pin points of "matter" does not 
necessarily mean
 > it's the most accurate interpretation of what is really going on 
under the
 > hood.
 >
 > Oh dear, caught in the act of pontificating, once again.
 >
 > >From a strictly philosophical non-scientific POV it all seems to 
come down
 > to MAYA, the illusion of reality that we all seem to be so entranced 
with.
 > The sand box, after all, with all of its inherent granularity can
 > occasionally be a fun place in which to build temporary sand castles in.
 >
 > Regards,
 > Steven Vincent Johnson
 > www.OrionWorks.com



What's fascinating about double slit is its wave and particle duality. 
The bar patterns demonstrate the electrons wave behavior, like a 
wave-train or pulse. On the other hand there's just one collision on the 
screen per electron. If the electron were merely a wave then it would 
crash against the screen like an oceans wave. That's probably why it's 
referred to as the collapse of the wave function in QM.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:15:22 -0800
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Subject: [Vo]: IPE

IPE is an acronym for induced photon emission. It is a superset of IGE 
or induced gamma emission. Here are some revisions of past postings on 
this subject.

The important feature of IPE is *induced radioactivity*. An element 
which is mildly radioactive in itself, when placed in electric or 
photonic emission-field, can be induced to multiply both the number of 
high energy photons (which are usually downshifted) AND/OR also multiply 
the net energy released. It is not "free" energy any more than nuclear 
fusion is free energy, and may have other similarities with LENR.

This class of reaction has been described in the literature mostly as 
IGE, or Induced Gamma Emission (gamma-rays are prized by the DoD) until 
the project "went black". Many believe that IGE weapons are now being 
produced and may have been used.

The raw material or media for IPE/IGE consists of isotopes of elements 
with highly deformed nuclei - which are often isomeric. IGE of the kind 
the military likes - happens with an isomer of hafnium - which results 
in secondary hard gamma emissions which can penetrate large distances. 
This has been described in arcane journals, and a slightly edited, 
possibly misleading (cleansed) version is (was) online, once available 
on the UT/Dallas web site. Here is a cache of what was there:

http://tinyurl.com/ytcznt
or
http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/utdallas?q=IGE&x=18&y=12&domains=utdallas.edu&sitesearch=utdallas.edu

Some information on this has filtered out over the years, but we have 
had the "death ray" meme for a longer time, so many at DoD are content 
to relegate the whole thing to SciFi fantasy. Do not believe the fantasy 
part. Little important new information on this subject has been 
forthcoming since the 9/11 aftermath... indicating that the so-called 
"Patriot Act" is working well enough to stop the flow of vital 
information for alternative energy, if any of that information should 
arguably have a possible terrorism implications.

Years ago, I posted some speculation about the possible inter-relation 
between the Mossbauer effect, and the BLP hydrino reactions. The 
Mossbauer effect itself was hypothesized then to be a subset of this 
larger class of reactions that were labeled as IPE- Induced Photon 
Emissions - which can cover both EUV, soft x-rays and hard gammas. In a 
perfect world of free-flowing information, more would be known about IPE 
and nuclear metastability now, and the broader field might even end-up 
having *precise relevance* to LENR or hydrino dynamics - this has not 
happened yet.

However, to the extent that when carefully controlled, the IPE 
methodology permits a new type of nuclear meta-phenomenon to appear and 
self-perpetuate - a limited *photon chain reaction* - that much is the 
key jumping-off point for possible understanding of some reported energy 
anomalies, and possibly those involving barium, which has an isomer with 
that required highly deformed nucleus.

Barium IPE - would have three possible advantage for LENR applications 
over hafnium IGE or cold fusion - if anecdote can be believed - in that 
the nuclear isomer in question can be regenerated through a pretreatment 
regime ("conditioning") which itself becomes the key issue in the 
ability to use it - as the half-life of the isomer is minuscule. 
Secondly the energy available is about 10,000 times greater per unit 
weight than combustion, so even a fractional percent of active material 
is important. And thirdly, since barium ferrites are usable as a 
magnetic core material, any IPE which occurs will in effect change the 
inductive properties of the magnetized core itself so that direct 
conversion into electricity of that energy is possible at high efficiency.

These are HUGE advantages over anything else in LENR today [but 
admittedly I have attempted to put all of this speculation in the best 
possible light, when in fact some, or all, of the voluminous anecdotal 
reports like those of the Sweet/Bearden VTA may be false, regrettably].

Jones

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Subject: [Vo]: Re:[VO]: IPE

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Jones wrote..

>However, to the extent that when carefully controlled, the IPE=20
methodology permits a new type of nuclear meta-phenomenon to appear and=20
self-perpetuate - a limited *photon chain reaction* - that much is the=20
key jumping-off point for possible understanding of some reported energy =

anomalies, and possibly those involving barium, which has an isomer with =

that required highly deformed nucleus.

Barium IPE - would have three possible advantage for LENR applications=20
over hafnium IGE or cold fusion - if anecdote can be believed - in that=20
the nuclear isomer in question can be regenerated through a pretreatment =

regime ("conditioning") which itself becomes the key issue in the=20
ability to use it - as the half-life of the isomer is minuscule.=20
Secondly the energy available is about 10,000 times greater per unit=20
weight than combustion, so even a fractional percent of active material=20
is important. And thirdly, since barium ferrites are usable as a=20
magnetic core material, any IPE which occurs will in effect change the=20
inductive properties of the magnetized core itself so that direct=20
conversion into electricity of that energy is possible at high =
efficiency.



Howdy Jones ,=20

Interesting stuff !

Ah Ha ! Barium.. I mentioned a Barite mine in Arkansas located near the =
town of Magnet Cove. The name suggests folks were aware of the anomalies =
of tha area. There were a few rather unexplained happenings that led to =
the name " Magnet Cove"..hmmm.

Anyway, the Magnet Cove Barium Corp was formed to mine Barite which =
makes an ideal drilling mud.

Hence the name MagCoBar Corp. Which for the benefit of Robin I will =
explain , sold out later to Baroid Corp,  a division of the National =
Lead Company.. hmmm .. again interestging marriage.. and finally Baroid =
was gobbled by the Halliburton Corp. The use of Barite in drilling mud ( =
fluids) continues but substitutes  are now coming on because of price. =
Must be  a huge deposit of Barite in Arkansas.  waste drilling mud is =
sold and sprayed into ranch water ponds ( stock tanks) to make them leak =
tite.

Good informative post with your usual speculative insight  in LENR.

Richard


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Jones wrote..


>However, to the extent that when carefully controlled, the IPE=20

methodology permits a new type of nuclear meta-phenomenon to appear =
and=20

self-perpetuate - a limited *photon chain reaction* - that much is =
the=20

key jumping-off point for possible understanding of some reported =
energy=20

anomalies, and possibly those involving barium, which has an isomer =
with=20

that required highly deformed nucleus.

Barium IPE - would =
have three=20
possible advantage for LENR applications 
over hafnium IGE or cold =
fusion -=20
if anecdote can be believed - in that 
the nuclear isomer in question =
can be=20
regenerated through a pretreatment 
regime ("conditioning") which =
itself=20
becomes the key issue in the 
ability to use it - as the half-life of =
the=20
isomer is minuscule. 
Secondly the energy available is about 10,000 =
times=20
greater per unit 
weight than combustion, so even a fractional =
percent of=20
active material 
is important. And thirdly, since barium ferrites are =
usable=20
as a 
magnetic core material, any IPE which occurs will in effect =
change the=20

inductive properties of the magnetized core itself so that direct=20

conversion into electricity of that energy is possible at high=20
efficiency.


 


Howdy Jones , 


Interesting stuff !


Ah Ha ! Barium.. I mentioned a Barite mine in Arkansas located near =
the town=20
of Magnet Cove. The name suggests folks were aware of the anomalies of =
tha area.=20
There were a few rather unexplained happenings that led to the name " =
Magnet=20
Cove"..hmmm.


Anyway, the Magnet Cove Barium Corp was formed to mine Barite which =
makes an=20
ideal drilling mud.


Hence the name MagCoBar Corp. Which for the benefit of Robin I will =
explain ,=20
sold out later to Baroid Corp,  a division of the National Lead =
Company..=20
hmmm .. again interestging marriage.. and finally Baroid was gobbled by =
the=20
Halliburton Corp. The use of Barite in drilling mud ( fluids) continues =
but=20
substitutes  are now coming on because of price. Must be  a =
huge=20
deposit of Barite in Arkansas.  waste drilling mud is sold and =
sprayed=20
into ranch water ponds ( stock tanks) to make them leak tite.


Good informative post with your usual speculative insight  in =
LENR.


Richard


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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 22:26:06 2007
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Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 01:24:03 -0500
From: Harry Veeder 
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Subject: [Vo]: electricity question


If electrical power is P.

Do electrical engineers have a special name for dP/dt?

Harry  

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Subject: [Vo]: Re; Connect The Dot Cold Fusion Challenge

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Can someone clever enough, use this applet to get D-D CF in 
a Pd lattice?

A "Many-Body" squeeze.   :-)

http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/EField/EField.html

Fred
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Can someone clever enough, use this applet to get D-D CF in 


a Pd lattice?


 


A "Many-Body" squeeze.   :-)


 



 


Fred

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 22:59:54 2007
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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 23:59:44 -0700
From: "leaking pen" 
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: electricity question
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depends what you mean by electrical power.  by my understanding,
wattage, the big way of measuring power, IS a change of electrical
current over time. i could be mistaken, my understanding of units of
electricity has always been iffy.

On 1/31/07, Harry Veeder  wrote:
>
> If electrical power is P.
>
> Do electrical engineers have a special name for dP/dt?
>
> Harry
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

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From: "Michel Jullian" 
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:06:50 +0100
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A wave packet coalescing into a point-like particle when it hits the screen, yes that's about as close to common sense understandability as it can get. Makes one realize the wave aspect of particles is a hard fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

Michel


----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Energy *Violations* using *standard* physics


> OrionWorks wrote:
> >> From: Michel Jullian
> >>
> >> Indeed the double slit experiment with only one single photon or
> >> electron traversing the experiment at a time is an awesome proof
> >> of the shortcomings of our common sense (mine in any case)! Can
> >> anyone _really_ make sense of why they form interference
> >> patterns? I mean, the QM equations will yield those patterns all
> >> right, but does QM itself make common sense?
> >>
> >> Michel
> >
> > The only logical explanation my brain can make out of the paradoxical 
> double
> > slit experiment is the notion that what we perceive, and more importantly
> > MEASURE, as "particles" are perhaps not really ISOLATED pinpoints
> > of –matter- after all.
> >
> > The only rational explanation I can comprehend is that what we define as
> > ISOLATED pin-points of "matter" are most likely waves of EM energy 
> that have
> > coalesced or configured themselves into patterns that our measuring 
> devices,
> > which reside in the macro world, interpret as "physical" particles. Of
> > course, WE are the ones doing all the interpreting. It's as if there 
> is an
> > almost desperate-like human tendency to fit as much bizzare QM 
> behavior into
> > the more framiliar rules of the macro world, cuz that's the only 
> reality our
> > brains can make any sense out of. And indeed, these highly 
> concentrated EM
> > patterns may occasionally seem to take on the characteristics of "matter"
> > which we human beings find so comforting. But to define these QM patterns
> > (i.e. photons) as ISOLATED pin points of "matter" does not 
> necessarily mean
> > it's the most accurate interpretation of what is really going on 
> under the
> > hood.
> >
> > Oh dear, caught in the act of pontificating, once again.
> >
> > >From a strictly philosophical non-scientific POV it all seems to 
> come down
> > to MAYA, the illusion of reality that we all seem to be so entranced 
> with.
> > The sand box, after all, with all of its inherent granularity can
> > occasionally be a fun place in which to build temporary sand castles in.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Steven Vincent Johnson
> > www.OrionWorks.com
> 
> 
> 
> What's fascinating about double slit is its wave and particle duality. 
> The bar patterns demonstrate the electrons wave behavior, like a 
> wave-train or pulse. On the other hand there's just one collision on the 
> screen per electron. If the electron were merely a wave then it would 
> crash against the screen like an oceans wave. That's probably why it's 
> referred to as the collapse of the wave function in QM.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
>