From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 1 07:45:56 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA32210; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 07:45:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 07:45:13 -0700 Message-ID: <00f601c132f4$9f7330a0$6401a8c0 cs910664a> From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <121.396bb25.28c176fe aol.com> Subject: Re: Superimposed fields comments to Horace Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:44:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C132D3.180DA440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Nai121.0.Ct7.uHFax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C132D3.180DA440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank, How will it lead to the development of gravitational (or propulsion) = technologies? Can you describe an experiment? I guess you are thinking = of utilizing standing waves to create the field, but in a practical = sense what configuration do we orient them for propulsion? Best Regards, Colin Quinney ---- Original Message -----=20 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com=20 To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20 Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 7:25 PM Subject: Re: Superimposed fields comments to Horace "will lead to the development of gravitational technologies" --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.274 / Virus Database: 144 - Release Date: 8/24/2001 ------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C132D3.180DA440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Frank,
 
How will it lead to the = development of=20 gravitational (or propulsion) technologies? Can you describe an = experiment? I=20 guess you are thinking of utilizing standing waves to create the field, = but in a=20 practical sense what configuration do we orient them for  = propulsion?
 
Best Regards,
Colin Quinney
 
---- Original Message -----
From:=20 FZNIDARSIC@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 = 7:25=20 PM
Subject: Re: Superimposed = fields comments=20 to Horace
 
"will lead to the development of = gravitational=20 technologies"
 
 
 

---
Outgoing = mail is=20 certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: = 6.0.274=20 / Virus Database: 144 - Release Date:=20 8/24/2001
------=_NextPart_000_00F3_01C132D3.180DA440-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 1 09:09:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA32717; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 09:08:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 09:08:44 -0700 From: Hypercom59 aol.com Message-ID: <12b.3f1a5e8.28c261e5 aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:08:05 EDT Subject: Re: Summary of McKubre interview on NPR To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 124 Resent-Message-ID: <"uCHFB.0.2_7.BWGax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The best possible idea for a kit is to secure a fluorescent lined vial to the top of the sealed cathode and as tritium is generated, it rises and the vial begins glow. Just a little idea. C From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 1 12:18:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06916; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:17:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:17:23 -0700 Message-ID: <3B91342B.33C555B6 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 22:16:59 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Superimposed fields ... - Cosmological speculations References: <26.1aa1698c.28c177d9 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PBrkS2.0.-h1.3HJax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, I may not well understand how you link the cosmological constant with the the Hubble constant. My idea was based the universe is really expanding so the Hubble constant give approximate distance of light sources upon its redshift. The cosmological constant rise from the difficulty to match gravitational calculation based on 1/r^2 to astronomical ca lculations. So if astronomical observations are correct (universe behave as described in GR, GR need a small correction named as cosmological constant. Although your theory on source of gravitation may not be compatible to GR, should give same results on static universe. Assuming the universe is not static but expanding (by the Hubble constant), there would be deviation between GR and your theory results , this difference appears as cosmological constant. As I understand from your text, you explain the Hubble constant as behavior of light under gravitational field on a static universe rather than the Doppler effect on a expanding universe. So we not talking exactly on the same thing. I wrote: > > Accelerated or steady expansion of the universe could be the cause of the > > Cosmological constant, which may be similar to mirrors getting apart in > > mirror box experiment. You wrote: > A photon has no rest mass therefore the source of > the gravitation mass of a photon cannot be mass. The source > of the gravitational mass of a photon will now be > demonstrated. Hubbles' constant expresses the expansion > space in units of 1/time. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 1 12:59:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17201; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:58:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:58:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3B913DCE.612A103E verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 22:58:06 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Question for Frank on Podkletnov experiment Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XPTmd1.0.hC4.ctJax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Frank, There are some major difficulties on Podkletnov experiment. How can we evaluate these observations? 1) No apparent back reaction. Objects subjected to the beam are kicked with 1000 g (gee) but the apparatus generating the beam appears not receiving a back reaction. Assuming the beam carry a gravitation force, is this can be possible according your theory? 2) Beam appear does NOT attenuate by distance. For NON DIVERGING beams of any kind carrying energy it is logical to accept this, but for a field carrying gravitational force, this would be hardly possible. According your theory an induced gravitation force should attenuate with 1/r. Do you have some suggestions? hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 1 22:59:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA18546; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:59:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:59:14 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010902002330.00988da0 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 01:05:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: PATENT energy devices In-Reply-To: <131.e848e5.28c1158c aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"5PSR82.0.iX4.ogSax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris: And Vortex There are many who misunderstand patent law because they have never participated in the process closely enough to learn the unbelievably huge pile of detail involved. For example In many of the places I have worked an engineer may design a device for which the company may peruse a patent. The inventor in this case has may only have an overview of the process while the company attorneys and other engineers are exposed to each and every crude detail. In the case where an individual peruses a patent to conclusion the individual would likely have a much more intimate understanding of the process and the laws. In the case of infringement. Well if I make one for my own use then who is to know? If I learn something then that is great. But at the very moment I use this device as a part of another or make an improvement or use it to make money then I must seek licensing from the inventor in order to proceed. IF I do not and the inventor becomes aware that I am producing or using his invention and making money he can sue me. So in the basic intent. The distribution of the information for education and the improvement of technology is accomplished. In a more complex and detailed way the inventors "exclusive right to practice" is protected. In the same way for the last 25 years you could make your own hybrid electric car without steeping on the inventors exclusive right to practice. But if you sold one he could sue. The term "practice" is a key here. IF you use it professionally in any way then you violate that exclusive right to "practice" and if it can be proven that you have done this then you can be found liable for both real and punitive damage. It is not unheard of for the combined damages force the infringer into bankruptcy. So... IF you make one of these based on Chris's patent that is fine. If you learn something that is fine too. But if you use it as a demo in your school lab or publish a book about it. Well that is "practice" and you need a licence. I hope this clears the matter up. At 12:30 PM 8/31/01 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 8/31/2001 11:11:06 AM Central Daylight Time, >herman antioch-college.edu writes: > >< If a unit is made for personal use and not sold this does not falll under >the guidelines of infringement... > > >The private construction and use of my patented device denies my right to >sole practice of this invention and new ideas that will spring from >experimentation with it. That is what a License and Cooperative Research And >Development Agreement (CRADA ) is specifically for - the development of >Future technologies that would not be possible "without" the practice of the >patented invention. > >Best Regards, >Chris > >http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 2 16:23:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02361; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:22:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:22:10 -0700 Message-ID: <000901c13406$645932e0$8b3dee3f User> From: "Nick Reiter" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Hemisphere Capacitor Research Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:23:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C133E4.CEC71C40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"8Zb-Q2.0.ka.Yyhax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C133E4.CEC71C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentlemen; This afternoon, we finally got a report up on-line concerning the = experimental work I have been after since last year. (For a while, it = was congruent with the Peltier Effect experiments). This describes what I have observed, as far as changes in the apparent = weight of charged hemisphere or spherical capacitors. Again, I may have to reply to comments after a few have been posted, due = to lack of computer time. I will however, try to address as many as I = can. Here is the link: http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/hemiscap.htm Best regards; NR ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C133E4.CEC71C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentlemen;
 
This afternoon, we finally got a report = up on-line=20 concerning the experimental work I have been after since last = year.  (For a=20 while, it was congruent with the Peltier Effect = experiments).
 
This describes what I have observed, as = far as=20 changes in the apparent weight of charged hemisphere or spherical=20 capacitors.
 
Again, I may have to reply to comments = after a few=20 have been posted, due to lack of computer time.  I will however, = try to=20 address as many as I can.
 
Here is the link:
 
http://www= .alliancelink.com/users/avalon/hemiscap.htm
 
 
Best regards;
 
NR
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C133E4.CEC71C40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 2 18:46:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07016; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 18:45:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 18:45:34 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 18:45:34 -0800 Message-Id: <999481534.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Cold fusion is real. Resent-Message-ID: <"w6gBV1.0.Yj1.z2kax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ira Plato starts out with a rather offensive defensive statement where he admits that he does not report on cold fusion experiments. He claims that they do not pass the test of good science. He then defines good science not in term of the scientific method, but in terms of authority. In his world, science is not about experiment, but about "reputable scientist" and published in "respectable journals". This is convincing evidence that there are very few true scientist. Most people regard "science" as a collection of facts that is spewed by a person in authority, like a teacher. Basically, the only reason why Ira Plato let this see the light of day is because, as I've long expected, someone he considers an authority told him it was "acceptable". So much for any capacity for independent thought. McKubre duplicated Arata's experiment where a hollowed out Pd cathode and puts in Pd Powerder and welds it shut again. Arata showed that he got more heat out of D2O runs than from H2O runs. Arata measured He-3 and He-4 in his cathodes. McKubre used electrodes from Arata in his duplication of the experiment. The McKubre electrodes were analyzed by two other labs, Pacific Northwest Labs, and McMaster University of Canada. They found an very large amount of He-3, this was due to tritium decay to He-3. Contamination was rejected because 1) it could only occur at PNL. Tritium was found on the inside of the cathode. 2) There was a very large amount of tritium, highly unlikely to be due to contamination. 3) The wall of electrode shows decreasing tritium concentration from the inside of the electrode to the outside, indicating that the tritium originated on the inside of the electrode. If it was contamination from the outside it would have been reversed. This experiment is not unlike that which I have pointed out before by Russ George (also of SRI) and by Clator of Los Alamos. The skeptics still cling to their rebuttal by insults and ridicule, I've noticed. You'd think they'd be backpeddling by now. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 2 19:07:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA13855; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:06:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:06:39 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hemisphere Capacitor Research Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 12:06:06 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000901c13406$645932e0$8b3dee3f User> In-Reply-To: <000901c13406$645932e0$8b3dee3f User> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA13825 Resent-Message-ID: <"RTkb22.0.KO3.kMkax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Nick Reiter's message of Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:23:55 -0400: [snip] >http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/hemiscap.htm [snip] Hi Nick, It might be worth trying the gold fish bowl, with a small brass knob suspended at the centre as the internal electrode, rather than the inner surface of the sphere. That way a much larger volume of space is affected by the E-field. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 2 19:26:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA19731; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:25:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:25:57 -0700 From: Steve Krivit To: "slajoie u.washington.edu" , "vortex-L eskimo.com" Subject: RE: Cold fusion is real. Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:27:00 -0700 X-Mailer: MailBeamer v3.24 (Win98) Message-ID: <242076474.377668512.4294657679 Butthead.linkline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"e0JKe1.0.Dq4.qekax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >The skeptics still cling to their rebuttal by insults and ridicule, >I've noticed. You'd think they'd be backpeddling by now. I appreciated your detailed review of McKubre's experiment. As a non-scientist, I was able to get a very clear understanding of the nature of the experiment, as well as his apparent sound reasoning to defend against claims of contamination. So I was thrilled that CF, or a "chemically induced nuclear reaction" was able to get nationwide (NPR FM) and worldwide (Web Streams) publicity. I am convinced that this shift to where CF/LENR gains public acceptance will occur first in the minds of the general public, then the schools, businesses and politicians will follow. I doubt the skeptics will even show face. When John Q public first sees CF/LENR perform work - reliably, and safely, nothing will stop the very rapid shift which will demand its use for the good of mankind. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 2 21:10:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA17203; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 21:09:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 21:09:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3B930287.DD6D2ADC ghg.net> Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 23:09:43 -0500 From: Robert Perry Reply-To: rperry ghg.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fwd:Re:Summary...... Sorry, I did not mean to send this to the list. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vggRT1.0.iC4.GAmax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am sorry. A finger slipped and caused a transmission before I set the recipient. -- Robert Perry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 2 22:11:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA00419; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 22:10:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 22:10:09 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, slajoie@u.washington.edu, vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 01:18:48 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <999481534.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> In-Reply-To: <999481534.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01090301184800.01211 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA00399 Resent-Message-ID: <"pH1KV.0.T6.n2nax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 02 September 2001 19:45, slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: > Ira Plato starts out with a rather offensive defensive statement > where he admits that he does not report on cold fusion experiments. > He claims that they do not pass the test of good science. He then > defines good science not in term of the scientific method, but in > terms of authority. In his world, science is not about experiment, > but about "reputable scientist" and published in "respectable > journals". > > This is convincing evidence that there are very few true scientist. > Most people regard "science" as a collection of facts that is spewed > by a person in authority, like a teacher. > > Basically, the only reason why Ira Plato let this see the light of > day is because, as I've long expected, someone he considers an > authority > told him it was "acceptable". So much for any capacity for independent > thought. > > McKubre duplicated Arata's experiment where a hollowed out Pd cathode > and puts in Pd Powerder and welds it shut again. > > Arata showed that he got more heat out of D2O runs than from H2O runs. > Arata measured He-3 and He-4 in his cathodes. > > McKubre used electrodes from Arata in his duplication of the > experiment. > > The McKubre electrodes were analyzed by two other labs, Pacific > Northwest Labs, and McMaster University of Canada. > > They found an very large amount of He-3, this was due to tritium > decay to He-3. > > Contamination was rejected because 1) it could only occur at PNL. > Tritium was found on the inside of the cathode. 2) There was a very > large amount of tritium, highly unlikely to be due to contamination. > 3) The wall of electrode shows decreasing tritium concentration from > the inside of the electrode to the outside, indicating that the tritium > originated on the inside of the electrode. If it was contamination > from the outside it would have been reversed. > > This experiment is not unlike that which I have pointed out before > by Russ George (also of SRI) and by Clator of Los Alamos. > > The skeptics still cling to their rebuttal by insults and ridicule, > I've noticed. You'd think they'd be backpeddling by now. > > > > Person of 'authority'..."...like a teacher!". Try this one out: 'LIKE A PRIEST!!! These are not scientists that practice their 'skepticism' like a bandit with a gatt. They are priests who are bounty hunting for heretics. Anton Chekhov would have loved their mouthings. Hey lets follow the leader and maybe we will get a raise next review time!? There is a story about a German scientist captured after the Great Patriotic War who when asked about the progress of the Reich with rocketry had a curious and poignant reply: "Twenty years ago (1924-5) your scientist Goddard wrote a book about liquid fueled rockets. WE read that book! DID YOU??" Just like I always said that the bridge rail of the Golden Gate Bridge would be made 'suicide proof' only when some terrorist with a bomb strapped to his body chooses to whack himself by leaping down the smokestack of a passing aircraft carrier loaded with nuclear devices in order to really go to 'glory' in style. So do I also say that cold fusion as a reality will be listened to when Chinese Podkletnov saucers mounting rail guns and powered by Fleishmann cells float down Pennsylvania Avenue to pay us a 'social(ist) visit'. No system is really reformed from within. Old ways and mistakes have to take a toll in blood for reform to arrive. Look how many Frenchmen had to die in the Battle of the Marne for the marshalls to finally realize that sending massed ranks in front of machine guns was wasting their lives.....but then those old marshalls were really only providing a 'final solution to the French unemployment and overpopulation problem weren't they?' Some scientists in this field have already gone all the way to Japan. North Korea is only a little farther. SOMEBODY with an energy shortage and a ravenous thirst for power in the world WILL want this...........BADLY!! Were one a good little monopolist, he/she would be secretly researching all these things and quietly filing patents and copyrights in preparation for a day certain of announcement. Prior to that, one would make sure that competition was either litigated or prosecuted or ridiculed or executed into silence and inactivity. Useful fools with specious arguments about bourgouis authority would be his/her stock in trade. Cynically yours, Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 04:33:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA16774; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 04:32:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 04:32:44 -0700 Message-ID: <003301c1346c$7fb27a40$323dee3f User> From: "Nick Reiter" To: References: <000901c13406$645932e0$8b3dee3f User> Subject: Re: Hemisphere Capacitor Research Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:35:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"HeZGf.0.v54.Sfsax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin; Thanks for the input. This is similar to a geometry I did work with, though did not mention specifically in the report. I took a 500ml round-bottom flask, and painted the lower half of the outside with dag paint. Then down the center, I suspended a silver painted glass marble as a small spherical electrode. I could then fill the intervening flask space with different media. This was where I did start to get the hint that heavy materials, such as litharge or PZT powder gave better results. However, the best results seemed to come with maximizing the field density and magnitude - V/cm (thin shell dielectric configuration) My guess would be that filling a spherical volume with many layers would be the way to go - thus gaining field strength AND length of influence. I also have seen hints that there is a factor of resistivity or finesse. Lining a ball with silver paint or foil gave better results, generally, than using carbon dag paint. Does this relate to a Casimir force or boundary interaction? NR ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 10:06 PM Subject: Re: Hemisphere Capacitor Research > In reply to Nick Reiter's message of Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:23:55 -0400: > [snip] > >http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/hemiscap.htm > [snip] > Hi Nick, > > It might be worth trying the gold fish bowl, with a small brass knob > suspended at the centre as the internal electrode, rather than the inner > surface of the sphere. That way a much larger volume of space is > affected by the E-field. > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 07:59:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA28992; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:57:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:57:22 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010903105714.0333a310 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 10:57:24 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: NPR Science Friday on-line archive recording Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"e1m6c3.0.w47.Ifvax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See (hear): http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/totn/20010831.totn.01.ram The segment with McKubre starts about 32 minutes and 22 seconds into the broadcast archive file. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 08:31:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05443; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 08:30:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 08:30:38 -0700 Message-ID: <017201c1348d$50e088d0$6401a8c0 cs910664a> From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <000901c13406$645932e0$8b3dee3f User> Subject: Re: Hemisphere Capacitor Research Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 11:30:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_016F_01C1346B.C9532920" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"LiQBX.0.xK1.U8wax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_016F_01C1346B.C9532920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nick, Excellent research.=20 My only suggestion is to now go with your suggestion of the layered = version while utilizing the highest dielectric breakdown polymer film = available and also- enclosing a HV supply within the Faraday cage = itself.=20 Colin Quinney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nick Reiter=20 To: vortex-L=20 Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 7:23 PM Subject: Hemisphere Capacitor Research Gentlemen; This afternoon, we finally got a report up on-line concerning the = experimental work I have been after since last year. (For a while, it = was congruent with the Peltier Effect experiments). This describes what I have observed, as far as changes in the apparent = weight of charged hemisphere or spherical capacitors. Again, I may have to reply to comments after a few have been posted, = due to lack of computer time. I will however, try to address as many as = I can. Here is the link: http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/hemiscap.htm Best regards; NR --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.274 / Virus Database: 144 - Release Date: 8/24/2001 ------=_NextPart_000_016F_01C1346B.C9532920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nick,
 
Excellent research.
 
My only suggestion is to now go = with your=20 suggestion of the layered version while utilizing the = highest=20 dielectric breakdown polymer film available and also-=20  enclosing a HV supply within the Faraday cage = itself.=20
 
Colin Quinney
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Nick = Reiter=20
Sent: Sunday, September 02, = 2001 7:23=20 PM
Subject: Hemisphere Capacitor=20 Research

Gentlemen;
 
This afternoon, we finally got a = report up=20 on-line concerning the experimental work I have been after since last=20 year.  (For a while, it was congruent with the Peltier Effect=20 experiments).
 
This describes what I have observed, = as far as=20 changes in the apparent weight of charged hemisphere or spherical=20 capacitors.
 
Again, I may have to reply to = comments after a=20 few have been posted, due to lack of computer time.  I will = however, try=20 to address as many as I can.
 
Here is the link:
 
http://www= .alliancelink.com/users/avalon/hemiscap.htm
 
 
Best regards;
 
NR
 

---
Outgoing mail is certified = Virus=20 Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: = 6.0.274=20 / Virus Database: 144 - Release Date:=20 8/24/2001
------=_NextPart_000_016F_01C1346B.C9532920-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 09:08:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA18289; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:07:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:07:54 -0700 Message-ID: <007501c13493$08aee100$46181ad8 oemcomputer> From: "bruce meland" To: References: <141.6b7744.28b7a108 aol.com> <3B8688DD.C1A06225@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Warning about free energy devices Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:11:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"TNPfx.0.hT4.Qhwax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yes Terry but what are the terms of the agreement? Most funders give little to the inventor. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Blanton To: Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Warning about free energy devices > Hypercom59 aol.com wrote: > > > > The point is, > > The point is . . . > > If someone has truly invented a free energy machine they will > need money to produce it and sell it. If you *really* have such > a device, there is a very wealthy European just waiting to > finance you. Contact the people at this web page and arrange to > have your machine tested: > > http://www.earthtech.org/contact/default.htm > > If your invention can be commercially developed to provide free > energy, you will find all the funds you need here. > > Regards, > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 09:23:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23528; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:23:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:23:16 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010903121753.03328ae8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 12:23:16 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. In-Reply-To: <999481534.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"oVetG3.0.Tl5.pvwax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: >Ira Plato starts out with a rather offensive defensive statement >where he admits that he does not report on cold fusion experiments. >He claims that they do not pass the test of good science. He then >defines good science not in term of the scientific method, but in >terms of authority. In his world, science is not about experiment, >but about "reputable scientist" and published in "respectable >journals". The name is Ira Flatow. His statement was a little offensive, but I think it was partly an act. He knows more about cold fusion than he lets on, and he might be more enthusiastic about it than he seems to be. (I wouldn't know; I have never spoken with him.) He talks like this in an attempt to distance himself from the subject, to avoid alienating members of this audience who oppose cold fusion. I think it is a vain attempt; they will be alienated. They will dismiss any result and attack him no matter what tone he uses. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 10:07:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA04146; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:06:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:06:46 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010903125749.00a9e538 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 13:06:22 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Cold fusion is real. In-Reply-To: <242076474.377668512.4294657679 Butthead.linkline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"6hooe1.0.h01.bYxax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steve Krivit wrote: > >The skeptics still cling to their rebuttal by insults and ridicule, > >I've noticed. You'd think they'd be backpeddling by now. Never! One paper and one radio broadcast will not sway them an inch. They have ignored hundreds of papers, albeit few as impressive as this. They ignored Will's tritium results in 1991. Those results were even more impressive in a way, because Will repeated the experiment several times, and it worked every time. >I am convinced that this shift to where CF/LENR gains public acceptance >will occur first in the minds of the general public, then the schools, >businesses and politicians will follow. I doubt the skeptics will even >show face. I fear that the public and politicians will not be swayed unless a commercial product prototype is shown. This may be impossible. >When John Q public first sees CF/LENR perform work - reliably, and >safely, nothing will stop the very rapid shift which will demand its use >for the good of mankind. Reliably and safely?!? That is a very tall order. Without millions of dollars in R&D funding, I do not see how that can be accomplished. There will be no funding without some level of acceptance, and no acceptance without this kind of demonstration, and no demonstration without funding. If we must have reliability and safety before there is a shift in public opinion, CF is doomed. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 12:11:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA14859; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:03:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:03:46 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 12:03:16 -0800 Message-Id: <999543796.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> To: , Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_g3n61.0.yd3.HGzax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------Included Message---------- > Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 12:23:16 -0400 > From: "Jed Rothwell" > Reply-To: > To: > Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. > > slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: > > >Ira Plato starts out with a rather offensive defensive statement > >where he admits that he does not report on cold fusion experiments. > >He claims that they do not pass the test of good science. He then > >defines good science not in term of the scientific method, but in > >terms of authority. In his world, science is not about experiment, > >but about "reputable scientist" and published in "respectable > >journals". > > The name is Ira Flatow. His statement was a little offensive, > but I think it was partly an act. It is unlikely to be an act because he defines science as being by authority. He stresses that the sources for this paper are "legit". > He knows more about cold fusion than he lets on, and > he might be more enthusiastic about it than he seems to be. > (I wouldn't know; I have never spoken with him.) He talks > like this in an attempt to distance himself from the subject, > to avoid alienating members of this audience who oppose cold > fusion. I think it is a vain attempt; they will be alienated. ? They will dismiss any result and attack him no matter what tone > he uses. Ira Flatow took this news for one simple reason; his awe of authority and the imminent publication of the results in an authoritative paper. To him, it is little more than magic mumbo jumbo and his high priest, as Standing Bear says, told him its okay to chant about cold fusion. Feel free to speculate that he is smarter than his speech reveals. I've not been disappointed since I've stopped overestimating skeptics. My only fear now is that I will not be able to get the things I need for my own cold fusion project. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 12:26:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20023; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:17:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:17:04 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 12:16:52 -0800 Message-Id: <999544612.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> To: , Subject: RE: Cold fusion is real. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"MDg_k1.0.nu4.mSzax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------Included Message---------- > Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 13:06:22 -0400 > From: "Jed Rothwell" > Reply-To: > To: > Subject: RE: Cold fusion is real. [snip] > I fear that the public and politicians will not be swayed unless a > commercial product prototype is shown. This may be impossible. Why? > >When John Q public first sees CF/LENR perform work - reliably, and > >safely, nothing will stop the very rapid shift which will demand its use > >for the good of mankind. > > Reliably and safely?!? That is a very tall order. Without millions of > dollars in R&D funding, I do not see how that can be accomplished. Why does it require millions of dollars in R&D funding? Maybe to study the phyics, or to optimise it; but to make it work? A working prototype should be straight forward. Does anyone know how much He-4 was found in the cathode? To me, it seems a rather odd way to load it. This dues support Storm's claim that it is a surface effect; at least the He-3 and tritium production appears to be a surface effect. I'd sure like to read more, and wish that Ira Flatow had asked more relevant questions. > There > will be no funding without some level of acceptance, and no acceptance > without this kind of demonstration, and no demonstration without funding. > If we must have reliability and safety before there is a shift in public > opinion, CF is doomed. Personally, I hope SRI and McKubre, Arata, George et al become richer than Bill Gates. It takes real brains to see the science thought the authoritative Mumbo-Jumbo, courage to stick with it, and persistance to put up with little budget for so long to bring this to fruit. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 12:26:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20292; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:18:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:18:34 -0700 From: ConexTom aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:16:41 EDT Subject: Tesla Force Fields & The Modern Day Sigfried: A reinterpretation of the Myth! To: DEACH topica.com, prj@mail.msen.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: tom rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_be.1a062e75.28c53119_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 Resent-Message-ID: <"4o7zt3.0.-y4.AUzax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_be.1a062e75.28c53119_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tesla Force Fields & The Modern Day Sigfried: A reinterpretation of the Myth! The modern day Sigfried, is a hero who is an ordinary citizen, who struggles against the corruption and bureaucracy of the modern day world, which is the dragon (Fafnir), that Sigfried must slay, with the sword (Notung) of justice, compassion, and sincerity. Sigfried also has the ring of the Nibelungs, which represents the Catholic Church, and Sigfried has already discarded that ring, since it proved to be untrue. Sigfried has met Brunhilde, she represents the lasers from the mind control projects, which are used and directed at Sigfried's head, in an attempt of prevent Sigfried from succeeding. Whether Sigfried can make the Tarnhelm, or the Shield (Tesla Force Fields) to save himself and his people, is yet to be seen. Sigfried in the modern day, can also redefine himself, and may yet change the myths, so that all races, genders, and classes of people, learn to live together, in a peaceful, and compassionate manner! Respectfully, Thomas Clark www.rhfweb.com tom rhfweb.com --part1_be.1a062e75.28c53119_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tesla Force Fields & The Modern Day Sigfried: A
reinterpretation of the Myth!

The modern day Sigfried, is a hero who is an ordinary citizen,
who struggles against the corruption and bureaucracy of the
modern day world, which is the dragon (Fafnir), that Sigfried
must slay, with the sword (Notung) of justice, compassion, and
sincerity.  Sigfried also has the ring of the Nibelungs, which
represents the Catholic Church, and Sigfried has already
discarded that ring, since it proved to be untrue. Sigfried has
met Brunhilde, she represents the lasers from the mind control
projects, which are used and directed at Sigfried's head, in an
attempt of prevent Sigfried from succeeding.   Whether Sigfried
can make the Tarnhelm, or the Shield (Tesla Force Fields) to
save himself and his people, is yet to be seen.  Sigfried in the
modern day, can also redefine himself, and may yet change the
myths, so that all races, genders, and classes of people, learn to
live together, in a peaceful, and compassionate manner!

Respectfully,

Thomas Clark
www.rhfweb.com
tom rhfweb.com
--part1_be.1a062e75.28c53119_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 12:37:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA23744; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:30:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:30:12 -0700 Message-ID: <001201c134b0$9e66a4e0$7191cbc1 pc> From: "Noel Whitney" To: Subject: Virus Apology Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:42:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C134B8.E5E1ECA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"yarGI1.0.wo5.4fzax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C134B8.E5E1ECA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Just a note to apologise if you received an e-mail virus from us over = the last couple of days. We got hit from a mailing list I'm part of. = It was the SirCam mm virus. If you want to know more about the virus you can click on = http://vil.mcafee.com/dispVirus.asp?virus_k=3D99141& It doesn't do any damage, just copies itself to everyone in your address = book and attaches a file from your P.C. I now update my virus software every day!! Again apologies and I hope it didn't do any damage. Regards, Noel _______________________________________________________ Noel D. Whitney Quantum Leap Limited 52 Watson Road, Killiney, Co Dublin, Ireland. Tel: 00 353 1 2854626 why not visit our website at: www.quantumleap.ie ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C134B8.E5E1ECA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
Just a note to apologise if you = received an e-mail=20 virus from us over the last couple of days.  We got hit from a = mailing list=20 I'm part of.  It was the SirCam mm virus.
 
If you want to know more about the = virus you=20 can click on http://= vil.mcafee.com/dispVirus.asp?virus_k=3D99141&
It doesn't do any damage, just copies = itself to=20 everyone in your address book and attaches a file from your = P.C.
 
I now update my virus software every=20 day!!
Again apologies and I hope it = didn't do any=20 damage.
Regards,
Noel
_______________________________________________________
Noel = D.=20 Whitney
Quantum Leap Limited
52 Watson Road,
Killiney,
Co=20 Dublin,
Ireland.
Tel: 00 353 1 2854626
why not visit our = website at: www.quantumleap.ie
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C134B8.E5E1ECA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 13:58:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24010; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 13:58:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 13:58:26 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010902002330.00988da0 pop.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20010902002330.00988da0 pop.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:53:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: PATENT energy devices Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"3Ie_q3.0.ys5.ox-ax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Chris: >And Vortex >inventor becomes aware that I am producing or using his invention >and making money he can sue me. Interesting discussion. Chris's hard line definition of infringement is my understanding of the law too. Case in point the company which controlled the patent on a gene sent a cease and desist order to a university laboratory that was experimenting with the gene in an effort to develop a test. > >So... IF you make one of these based on Chris's patent that is >fine. If you learn something that is fine too. But if you use it >as a demo in your school lab or publish a book about it. Well that >is "practice" and you need a licence. It's only OK if Chris doesn't find out. >I hope this clears the matter up. > > > >At 12:30 PM 8/31/01 -0400, you wrote: >>In a message dated 8/31/2001 11:11:06 AM Central Daylight Time, >>herman antioch-college.edu writes: >> >>< If a unit is made for personal use and not sold this does not falll under >>the guidelines of infringement... > >> >>The private construction and use of my patented device denies my right to >>sole practice of this invention and new ideas that will spring from >>experimentation with it. That is what a License and Cooperative Research And >>Development Agreement (CRADA ) is specifically for - the development of >>Future technologies that would not be possible "without" the practice of the >>patented invention. >> >>Best Regards, >>Chris >> >>http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html > > > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 14:02:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25550; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:02:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:02:25 -0700 Message-ID: <3B940E18.24EA bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 16:11:20 -0700 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. References: <999543796.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RpJtr3.0.8F6.W_-ax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: > Ira Flatow took this news for one simple reason; his awe of > authority and the imminent publication of the results in an > authoritative paper. > > To him, it is little more than magic mumbo jumbo and his high > priest, as Standing Bear says, told him its okay to chant about > cold fusion. > > Feel free to speculate that he is smarter than his speech reveals. > I've not been disappointed since I've stopped overestimating skeptics. > > My only fear now is that I will not be able to get the things I need > for my own cold fusion project. I disagree. I think Ira might believe in LENR but is playing the game of introduction. From: http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/misc/faq/flatow.html "I was the proverbial kid who spent hours in the basement experimenting with electronic gizmos, and then entering them in high school science fairs," says Ira Flatow (rhymes with Plato), currently host of NPR's Talk of the Nation: Science Friday. Flatow is also past president of ScienCentral, Inc., a company dedicated to increasing the amount of science news shown on television. His early interest in all things scientific, combined with the fact that Flatow is as he frankly admits, "a bit of a ham," produced what he describes as "an educated layman with a tremendous desire to communicate his enthusiasm for science and discovery." ScienCentral: http://www.sciencentral.com/ Regards, Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 14:43:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA06718; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:43:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:43:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3B93F980.CA0FB3B ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 14:43:28 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: Nature Science Update Highlights: 3 September 2001] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"t2ioU.0.oe1._b_ax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Nature Science Update Highlights: 3 September 2001 Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 09:20:00 -0400 From: "Nature Science Update" Reply-To: Customer Service To: "Nature Science Update" NATURE SCIENCE UPDATE WEEKLY HIGHLIGHTS Now available at http://www.nature.com/nsu/ Discover the most fascinating things to happen in science this week: a collection of authoritative, informative and entertaining science news stories from Nature News Service Updated every day at midnight GMT and available for free! Nature Science Update Highlights: 3 September 2001 (c) Copyright Nature News Service 2001 ===================================================================== Nature Immunology Special Focus on Autoimmunity Nature Immunology is proud to publish a 'Focus on Autoimmunity'. The focus, which is featured in the September issue, includes a special collection of Reviews, Commentaries, and News & Views articles that highlight recent research in the field of autoimmunity. The online version additionally has exclusive features, such as a collection of links to selected classic autoimmunity papers, free-access links to autoimmunity papers published by the Nature Publishing Group, and Autoimmunity Round-ups of late breaking stories in the field that will be updated monthly. For a limited time Nature Immunology is making access to ALL of this information FREE ONLINE, so please visit us today at: http://www.nature.com/ni/special_focus/autoimmunity. ===================================================================== IS THAT STUDY REALLY NECESSARY? Economics helps decide if we should put our money where researchers' mouths are. http://www.nature.com/nsu/010906/010906-3.html APPELLATION MISSION CONTROLLÉE Space agency helps wine growers blend a better bottle. http://www.nature.com/nsu/010906/010906-4.html VIRUSES SOUNDED OUT Researchers hope to hear HIV, hepatitis and 'flu. http://www.nature.com/nsu/010906/010906-1.html MERCURY FALLING INTO FOOD CHAIN Sun, sea and snow bring mercury down to Earth. http://www.nature.com/nsu/010906/010906-2.html PARASITE CORRALS COMPUTER POWER You can trick someone else's computer into solving your problems. http://www.nature.com/nsu/010830/010830-8.html INFECTION KILLS CANCER Virus exploits cancer's common tag. http://www.nature.com/nsu/010830/010830-9.html ETNA IN IDENTITY CRISIS Sicily's volcano could be getting more violent. http://www.nature.com/nsu/010830/010830-10.html PRION PAIR PICTURED Domain swapping could be prion couples' downfall. http://www.nature.com/nsu/010830/010830-6.html NERVE CHIP GOES LIVE First nerve cell-silicon microchip built. http://www.nature.com/nsu/010830/010830-7.html ===================================================================== Nature Science Update is produced by the Nature News Service -- the popular science news syndication arm of the leading international science journal Nature. To find out about buying news and features like this for your website or newspaper please e-mail: mailto:syndication nature.com. ===================================================================== ** Want more stories? Take your pick from the archives: News http://www.nature.com/nsu/news.html Features http://www.nature.com/nsu/features.html Conferences http://www.nature.com/nsu/conferences/conferences.html By subject http://www.nature.com/nsu/categories/bysubject.html ** Like the stories you read online? Share them with a friend by clicking on "Send to a friend". ===================================================================== 6th September 2001 - naturejobs.com Enhanced and redesigned site enabling you to get the very most out of working in science. Naturejobs - making science work ===================================================================== This message has been sent to you as part of E-mail Alert Reader Services (EARS). No response is necessary. We hope that you find this service of value and tell your colleagues. Invite them to subscribe by forwarding this e-mail. If you would rather not receive future alerts of Nature Science Update's weekly highlights, please modify your e-mail preferences at: http://www.nature.com/registration/Modify_registration.taf (You will need to log in to be recognised as a Nature registrant) For technical assistance, please contact: mailto:registration nature.com For other enquiries, please contact: mailto:feedback nature.com Nature's worldwide offices: London . Madrid . Paris . Munich . Moscow . New Delhi . Tokyo Melbourne . San Francisco . Washington . New York From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 15:08:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA14882; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:07:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:07:31 -0700 Message-ID: <007701c134dd$bd10dbe0$9a56ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <999544612.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:36:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"4F58f3.0.Se3.Yy_ax" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm delighted by McKubre's report on NPR and more importantly on the publication of his forthcoming paper. I can weigh in on this discussion as a derivative authority because I made an intensive study of Arata's experiments for an article in Infinite Energy a few years ago. His papers in English are dense and a bit difficult to understand. I also did battle with a handful of resistant skeptics on vortex at the time. Arata's experiments are elegant and difficult. McKubre tried to fabricate the Arata cathode and failed, because palladium is a very difficult material to work with and the capsule must be welded shut. Arata's collaborator, Zhang, was9is?) head of the metallurgy department at Hokkaido University where Arata resides in the Arata building. McKubre's work with the Case and Arata configurations show elegantly that nuclear reactions can occur in an 'chemical' environment, whether you want to use the phrase 'cold fusion' or not. LENR is better, and the F-P Effect is real. "Cold Fusion" may be a banner we wave in defiance, but it just makes the natives restless and impedes understanding. It was coined for Jones' muon-catalyzed fusion and applied by the press to the F-P Effect. Do we need to continue the mislabeling? McKubre's work is consistent with Ed Storm's. Neither the Arata nor the Case configurations look promising for scale up to commercial applications. We need a theory, and no good ones are in sight, to my knowledge. Hopefully, McKubre's results will generate "interest" and show that there is something worth studying. It happens that tritium is a high value commodity for weapons applications, such that DoE built a fission reactor to produce tritium. Arata cathodes, for all their difficulty, are much cheaper to build and operate than a fission reactor. It is a deep irony that investment in weapons systems leads to technical breakthroughs. Many forget that the heavy investment necessary to jumpstart the integrated circuits technology came from the Air Force, who needed microcircuits for ICBMs -- without that impetus, the semiconductor flowering might not have occurred, or taken a different path, or been delayed by decades. It would be a different world. So it might be another irony if DoE's need for tritium triggers serious investment in LENR, leading to a real understanding and scale up for peaceful purposes. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 16:18:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29453; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 16:17:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 16:17:58 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <122.405097b.28c56866 aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 19:12:38 EDT Subject: Re: Question for Frank on Podkletnov experiment To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_122.405097b.28c56866_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10540 Resent-Message-ID: <"KiTan.0.SB7.a-0bx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_122.405097b.28c56866_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/1/01 4:33:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes: > > 2) Beam appear does NOT attenuate by distance. For NON DIVERGING beams of > any kind carrying energy it is logical to accept this, but for a field > carrying gravitational > force, this would be hardly possible. According your theory an induced > gravitation > force should attenuate with 1/r. Do you have some suggestions? > > hamdi > .......................... > I have no suggestions. Momentun is always conserved. The experiment must > be worng. > .................................... > Beam appear does NOT attenuate by distance. > > This cannot be. Such a beam would effect the potential energy 1/2 of the > universe. No way could this amount of energy be put in by the expermeintal apparatus. ........................................ --part1_122.405097b.28c56866_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/1/01 4:33:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:



2) Beam appear does NOT attenuate by distance. For NON DIVERGING beams of
any kind carrying energy it is logical to accept this, but for a field
carrying gravitational
force, this would be hardly possible. According your theory an induced
gravitation
force should attenuate with 1/r. Do you have some suggestions?

hamdi
..........................
I have no suggestions.  Momentun is always conserved.  The experiment must
be worng.
....................................
Beam appear does NOT attenuate by distance.

This cannot be.  Such a beam would effect the potential energy 1/2 of the
universe.


No way could this amount of energy be put in by the expermeintal apparatus.  

........................................



--part1_122.405097b.28c56866_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 17:50:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA19209; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:49:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:49:30 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:34:16 -0800 Message-Id: <999563656.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> To: , Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"f8mL61.0.3i4.QK2bx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I hate to dwell on this point, but he erred in describing good science in his introduction. Vortexian's, who suffer the wrath of those who believe in appeal to authority, should take special exception and offense to his description. Good science has nothing to do with "reputable journals" and "reputable scientist". Good science is total dedication to the scientific method. If something is suspect, you are free to replicate it. It is not something handed down by the gods to the little people. CF has long suffered from people like Flatow, who don't really know that science is a method of inductive logic and not Aristotelian appeals to authority. It is why good people labor in poverty to produce good science while "authorities" ridicule and defame them. These people should get the funding and respect they deserve. I've noticed that some people are in science because they are curious and love to make a new "wonder", and there are those who go into science because they want to show off. Science is often taught as a collection of science "facts", but little attention is given anymore to the scientific method. If there were more attention to the scientific method, then CF would not be the controversial, career destroying subject that it has become. ---------Included Message---------- > Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 16:11:20 -0700 > From: "Terry Blanton" > Reply-To: > To: > Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. > > slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: > > > > > Ira Flatow took this news for one simple reason; his awe of > > authority and the imminent publication of the results in an > > authoritative paper. > > > > To him, it is little more than magic mumbo jumbo and his high > > priest, as Standing Bear says, told him its okay to chant about > > cold fusion. > > > > Feel free to speculate that he is smarter than his speech reveals. > > I've not been disappointed since I've stopped overestimating skeptics. [snip] > I disagree. I think Ira might believe in LENR but is playing the game > of introduction. From: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 18:56:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA09125; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 18:55:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 18:55:07 -0700 Message-Id: <200109040155.VAA24192 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:45:54 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"L4kHM.0.QE2.wH3bx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: >The name is Ira Flatow. His statement was a little offensive, but I think >it was partly an act. He knows more about cold fusion than he lets on, and >he might be more enthusiastic about it than he seems to be. (I wouldn't >know; I have never spoken with him.) I HAVE talked with him and he is guardedly supportive, but I think Ira really does at his core believe that cold fusion is likely to be real. That's all we can expect these days from even the best of reporters -- and Ira is one of them. >He talks like this in an attempt to >distance himself from the subject, to avoid alienating members of this >audience who oppose cold fusion. Yes, that is what he is doing > I think it is a vain attempt; they will be >alienated. They will dismiss any result and attack him no matter what tone >he uses. Jed is right on about that. I also note that many researchers in cold fusion try to create new names for the phenomena -- not only to be more descriptive, but also in part as a PR tactic. That fails too, in my view. They'll be hung for it no matter what they call it. Since cold fusion, at least in the form practiced by Les Case and confirmed by McKubre really does pass muster theoretically and experimentally as literally cold fusion of deuterons, I find no problem in using the term cold fusion. -Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 19:20:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16493; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 19:19:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 19:19:42 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hemisphere Capacitor Research Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:19:12 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <000901c13406$645932e0$8b3dee3f User> <003301c1346c$7fb27a40$323dee3f@User> In-Reply-To: <003301c1346c$7fb27a40$323dee3f User> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA16471 Resent-Message-ID: <"xSKcg3.0.d14.ze3bx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Nick Reiter's message of Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:35:13 -0400: [snip] > I also have seen hints that there is a factor of resistivity or finesse. >Lining a ball with silver paint or foil gave better results, generally, than >using carbon dag paint. Does this relate to a Casimir force or boundary >interaction? ?? Perhaps it relates to the density or mobility of free electrons in the material. Is there any chance of trying it with a superconductor? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 22:06:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA17953; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 22:05:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 22:05:40 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 22:05:42 -0800 Message-Id: <999579942.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> To: , "VORTEX" Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"OIP9P2.0.RO4.a46bx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: So, he's supportive of Cold fusion and simply recites the authority argument, instead of telling people what science is, because he's panning to his audience and afraid he'd lose them if the spoke the truth? I suppose that could be. Lots of people have no principles. Lots of good people have suffered poor funding because there are not enough people willing to stand up and defend the scientific method. If Cold fusion has "friends" like Flatow, who seeks to appease the rabid skeptics, and reaffirms their unscientific criticisms, then Cold Fusion doesn't need enemies. So, how much He-4 did they measure? Is CF a surface effect? Or is just the production of tritium a surface effect and is He-4 produced much deeper? I can't wait to get the paper... ---------Included Message---------- > Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:45:54 -0400 > From: "Eugene F. Mallove" > Reply-To: > To: "VORTEX" > Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. > > Jed wrote: > > >The name is Ira Flatow. His statement was a little offensive, but I think > >it was partly an act. He knows more about cold fusion than he lets on, and > >he might be more enthusiastic about it than he seems to be. (I wouldn't > >know; I have never spoken with him.) > > I HAVE talked with him and he is guardedly supportive, but I think Ira > really does at his core believe that cold fusion is likely to be real. > That's all we can expect these days from even the best of reporters -- > and Ira is one of them. > > >He talks like this in an attempt to > >distance himself from the subject, to avoid alienating members of this > >audience who oppose cold fusion. > > Yes, that is what he is doing > > > I think it is a vain attempt; they will be > >alienated. They will dismiss any result and attack him no matter what tone > >he uses. > > Jed is right on about that. I also note that many researchers in cold > fusion try to create new names for the phenomena -- not only to be more > descriptive, but also in part as a PR tactic. That fails too, in my view. > They'll be hung for it no matter what they call it. Since cold fusion, > at least in the form practiced by Les Case and confirmed by McKubre > really does pass muster theoretically and experimentally as literally > cold fusion of deuterons, I find no problem in using the term cold fusion. > > -Gene Mallove > > ---------End of Included Message---------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 22:40:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA30087; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 22:40:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 22:40:05 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20010904013210.01d85e80 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 01:35:46 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. In-Reply-To: <999579942.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"POL6B2.0.0M7.ra6bx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:05 PM 9/3/2001 -0800, you wrote: >So, he's supportive of Cold fusion and simply recites the >authority argument, instead of telling people what science is, >because he's panning to his audience and afraid he'd lose them >if the spoke the truth? > >I suppose that could be. Lots of people have no principles. >Lots of good people have suffered poor funding because there >are not enough people willing to stand up and defend the scientific >method. > >If Cold fusion has "friends" like Flatow, who seeks to appease >the rabid skeptics, and reaffirms their unscientific criticisms, >then Cold Fusion doesn't need enemies. > >So, how much He-4 did they measure? Is CF a surface effect? Or >is just the production of tritium a surface effect and is He-4 >produced much deeper? > >I can't wait to get the paper... Stephen: IMHO, Ira Flatow has helped the field by conducting an interview of Mike. Give him a break, please. Back to the science: As to the amount, see either the ICCF8 Proceedings or the Cold Fusion TImes v.8 n.1 or the upcoming Fusion Technology. I dont think the He-4 occurs at the surface, although other reactions do occur there. Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 3 23:24:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA09525; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 23:24:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 23:24:01 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Question for Frank on Podkletnov experiment Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 08:33:58 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3B913DCE.612A103E verisoft.com.tr> In-Reply-To: <3B913DCE.612A103E verisoft.com.tr> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA09486 Resent-Message-ID: <"gwChF3.0.gK2.0E7bx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to hamdi ucar's message of Sat, 01 Sep 2001 22:58:06 +0300: >Hi Frank, > >There are some major difficulties on Podkletnov experiment. How can we evaluate these observations? > >1) No apparent back reaction. Objects subjected to the beam are kicked with 1000 g (gee) but the apparatus generating the beam appears not receiving a back reaction. [snip] I'm more troubled by the fact that the walls it passes through are not accelerated by 1000g. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 06:54:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA12470; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 06:50:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 06:50:43 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 06:50:46 -0800 Message-Id: <999611446.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> To: , Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"tGnZq.0.m23.pmDbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------Included Message---------- > Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 01:35:46 -0400 > From: "Mitchell Swartz" > Reply-To: > To: > Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. > > At 10:05 PM 9/3/2001 -0800, you wrote: > >I can't wait to get the paper... > > > > Stephen: > > IMHO, Ira Flatow has helped the field by conducting an interview of Mike. > Give him a break, please. Well, okay. No more Flatow bashing. I guess if my point hasn't been made by now... > Back to the science: > As to the amount, see either the ICCF8 Proceedings > or the Cold Fusion TImes v.8 n.1 or the upcoming Fusion Technology. > > I dont think the He-4 occurs at the surface, although other > reactions do occur there. Do you think that the reactions for tritium and He-3 occur near the surface, and He-4 deeper inside? Can the branching ratios, and thus the amount of neutrons, be changed to not favor neutrons by decreasing the surface area of the Pd? The McKubre results showed more tritium on the inside surface of the cathode rather than uniformly though out the cathode. That seems to indicate that the reaction that favored the tritium production was inside the cathode. This is more like gas loading, isn't it? Since the reaction happens inside a dry cathode. It suggest to me that one could do away with the electrolytic cell and replicate the conditions inside the cathode to produce cold fusion. I've long thought that the electrolytic cell was just a unnecessary complication. I know McKubre/George has done CF with gas loading. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 08:47:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31715; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:46:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:46:25 -0700 Message-ID: <3B94E964.8FEAA7D2 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 08:47:08 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. References: <999611446.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"s5l1v.0.Jl7.GTFbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: > ---------Included Message---------- > > Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 01:35:46 -0400 > > From: "Mitchell Swartz" > > Reply-To: > > To: > > Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. > > > > At 10:05 PM 9/3/2001 -0800, you wrote: > > > >I can't wait to get the paper... > > > > > > > > Stephen: > > > > IMHO, Ira Flatow has helped the field by conducting an interview > of Mike. > > Give him a break, please. > > Well, okay. No more Flatow bashing. I guess if my point hasn't been > made by now... > > > Back to the science: > > As to the amount, see either the ICCF8 Proceedings > > or the Cold Fusion TImes v.8 n.1 or the upcoming Fusion Technology. > > > > I dont think the He-4 occurs at the surface, although other > > reactions do occur there. > > Do you think that the reactions for tritium and He-3 occur near > the surface, and He-4 deeper inside? Can the branching ratios, > and thus the amount of neutrons, be changed to not favor neutrons > by decreasing the surface area of the Pd? The McKubre results showed > more tritium on the inside surface of the cathode rather than > uniformly though out the cathode. That seems to indicate that the > reaction that favored the tritium production was inside the cathode. > > This is more like gas loading, isn't it? Since the reaction happens > inside a dry cathode. It suggest to me that one could do away with > the electrolytic cell and replicate the conditions inside the cathode > to produce cold fusion. I've long thought that the electrolytic cell > was just a unnecessary complication. I know McKubre/George has done > CF with gas loading. First of all, the tritium producing reaction has been initiated using the Pons-Fleischmann method many times, hence is a normal but rare part of the CANR phenomenon. Clearly, different conditions within the special nuclear-active environment produce different nuclear reactions, including complex transmutation and fission reactions. Apparently, conditions can exist that allow a small part of the fusion energy to be retained by one of the nuclear products. If neutrons are also emitted, they are not detected, hence would have to have only thermal energy. The CANR process appears to be more complex than many explanations have acknowledged. Second, Case/McKubre/George have duplicated helium/heat production using simple gas loading of finely divided Pd, but without any evidence for tritium production. Why the powdered Pd of Arata would give tritium but the Case method does not is still a mystery. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 08:57:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA03449; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:56:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:56:37 -0700 From: Steve Krivit To: VORTEX Subject: Semantics ? Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:56:00 -0700 X-Mailer: MailBeamer v3.24 (Win98) Message-ID: <242211476.512690882.4294657679 Butthead.linkline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eMtkG2.0.cr.qcFbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have a HERETICAL question for this (heretical) group: If dropping the label "Cold Fusion" and replacing it with something "new" such as LENR, or an "ECN reaction" would accelerate the acceptance and adoption of "CF" to the world, would this community be in favor of it? Reasons: 1. We have just seen a successful example of publicity and publication that, IMHO, occured because McKubre refused to label his work "Cold Fusion". 2. Nobody, outside of the "CF" community really knows what CF is..... They THINK they know and have concluded that it is fraud and bad science. Of course most of them have not read any papers or done any first-hand reporting, so they really know nothing. But their minds are FIXED and it may be a lot easier to put CF to rest and start promoting a new name. 3. If you take the label away AND are willing to take the BIG CLAIMS away and just say, "look here...I took this chemical and this process....and I got this result - you become a far more difficult target for critics and censors to attack and to thwart. okay..... Steve Krivit From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 09:49:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA29362; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:48:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:48:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3B95067B.9C4BF02E bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:51:07 -0400 From: Terry Blanton Organization: . X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: New Scientist: Cold Fusion Experiment Produces Mysterious Results Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Tfo762.0.bA7.WNGbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [There's more holes in the dike than coventional science has fingers ;-)] From: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991234 A "cold fusion" experiment in California has produced tantalising results - but critics say they may not indicate that cold fusion has actually taken place. Most physicists treat claims of cold fusion with derision. However, an underground of enthusiasts has continued performing experiments which, they say, demonstrate that deuterium nuclei can fuse to produce tritium and helium isotopes during the electrolysis of heavy water with palladium electrodes. The few outsiders who have tried to repeat the experiments have failed, and claims for cold fusion have not survived peer review to appear in mainstream journals. Now Brian Clarke of McMaster University in Ontario, Canada, has found something that is not easily explained away. Researchers at SRI International, a private laboratory in California, carried out a cold fusion experiment - passing a current through heavy water using palladium electrodes - and claimed to see more heat produced than could be explained by the electric power used. They then sent their electrodes to Clarke for analysis. He discovered that they contained more than 10^15> atoms of tritium, a heavy radioactive isotope of hydrogen. "There's no question of the tritium being real," Clarke told New Scientist. Although this is more tritium than you would expect to find in a palladium electrode, it is still about 20,000 times less than the amount that would have been produced if the excess heat observed in the SRI experiments had been produced by the fusion of deuterium nuclei, as cold fusion advocates predict. They also predict that helium should be produced in these fusion reactions, but Clarke saw no evidence of helium in the electrodes. "I have no explanation of how the tritium was produced," Clarke told New Scientist. Michael McKubre, who performed the SRI experiments, says: "I am not convinced it's a fusion process, but it's definitely a nuclear process." A spokesman for the UK Atomic Energy Authority's Culham Laboratory who has seen Clarke's analysis said the small amount of tritium "indicates it's an electrochemical effect"--that the heat is produced by the making or breaking of chemical bonds rather than the fusing of nuclei. Clarke also investigated similar experiments led by Yoshiaki Arata of Osaka University, Japan. Arata's team claimed to have detected an excess of helium-3 and helium-4 isotopes following the heavy water electrolysis. But Clarke's analysis revealed no excess. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 10:29:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA15012; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:28:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:28:27 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904132814.02b297f8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 13:28:23 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, VORTEX From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Semantics ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"cbwse1.0.Tg3.xyGbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steve Krivit wrote: >I have a HERETICAL question for this (heretical) group: > >If dropping the label "Cold Fusion" and replacing it with something "new" >such as LENR . . . We can't do that. No one can. Language is not under the control of any one person or group of people. People will call it "cold fusion" for now, and probably for a long time to come. The label may be technically inaccurate, but many other words are. Meteorology has nothing to do with meteors or astronomy, although it comes from the French word meaning "astronomical phenomena." Even when Ed Storms calls it LENR others will know he means the same thing as "cold fusion." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 10:30:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA15389; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:29:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:29:22 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 10:29:25 -0800 Message-Id: <999624565.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> To: , Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rThsS1.0.Jm3.ozGbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------Included Message---------- > Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 08:47:08 -0600 > From: "Edmund Storms" > Reply-To: > To: > Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. > > > > slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: > > > ---------Included Message---------- > > > Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 01:35:46 -0400 > > > From: "Mitchell Swartz" > > > Reply-To: > > > To: > > > Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. > > > > > > At 10:05 PM 9/3/2001 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > >I can't wait to get the paper... > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephen: > > > > > > IMHO, Ira Flatow has helped the field by conducting an interview > > of Mike. > > > Give him a break, please. > > > > Well, okay. No more Flatow bashing. I guess if my point hasn't been > > made by now... > > > > > Back to the science: > > > As to the amount, see either the ICCF8 Proceedings > > > or the Cold Fusion TImes v.8 n.1 or the upcoming Fusion Technology. > > > > > > I dont think the He-4 occurs at the surface, although other > > > reactions do occur there. > > > > Do you think that the reactions for tritium and He-3 occur near > > the surface, and He-4 deeper inside? Can the branching ratios, > > and thus the amount of neutrons, be changed to not favor neutrons > > by decreasing the surface area of the Pd? The McKubre results showed > > more tritium on the inside surface of the cathode rather than > > uniformly though out the cathode. That seems to indicate that the > > reaction that favored the tritium production was inside the cathode. > > > > This is more like gas loading, isn't it? Since the reaction happens > > inside a dry cathode. It suggest to me that one could do away with > > the electrolytic cell and replicate the conditions inside the cathode > > to produce cold fusion. I've long thought that the electrolytic cell > > was just a unnecessary complication. I know McKubre/George has done > > CF with gas loading. > > First of all, the tritium producing reaction has been initiated using > the Pons-Fleischmann method many times, hence is a normal but rare > part of the CANR phenomenon. Yes, Claytor also showed that tritium was produced, using plasma loading of the Pd. Thus, tritium production is not unique to the PF method. > Clearly, different conditions within the special > nuclear-active environment produce different nuclear reactions, > including complex transmutation and fission reactions. > Apparently, > conditions can exist that allow a small part of the fusion energy to > be retained by one of the nuclear products. > If neutrons are also emitted, they are not > detected, hence would have to have only thermal energy. > The CANR process > appears to be more complex than many explanations have acknowledged. > Second, Case/McKubre/George have duplicated helium/heat production > using simple gas loading of finely divided Pd, but without any > evidence for tritium production. The Extrel C-50 Quadrapole Mass Spectrometer was not sensitive enough to distinguish between the mass 3 ash products. I caution not to jump to the conclusion that tritium wasn't there, because it was not measured and was not reported. They did measure was He-4, proof of cold fusion. Thus, I'm not sure that there is more than one reaction going on here. There very well may be. > Why the powdered Pd of Arata would give tritium but > the Case method does not is still a mystery. Do we know that tritium wasn't produced by the Case method? I don't think so. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 10:37:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18960; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:36:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:36:56 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 10:36:56 -0800 Message-Id: <999625016.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> To: , "VORTEX" Subject: Re: Semantics ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uNAPR.0.5e4.t4Hbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The only bad science wrt cold fusion is from the Skeptics. No fusion because no neutrons? Please! That's as unscientific as it gets. I would be in favor of a name change if the new name was more descriptive, but not so that some anti-scientific types can save face. They've ridiculed the people who have investigated this and blocked the progress of science long enough. They've made their bed, let them lay in it. I think it is quite important to distinguish science from authority. People must be made to KNOW why the skeptics were wrong, and what their sins against science, and the cold fusion researchers, was. The Cold Fusionist MUST be completely vindicated, the skeptics soundly refuted. It isn't just a matter of getting cold fusion accepted. It's about restoring the scientific method and bringing down science by authority. ---------Included Message---------- > Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:56:00 -0700 > From: "Steve Krivit" > Reply-To: > To: "VORTEX" > Subject: Semantics ? > > I have a HERETICAL question for this (heretical) group: > > If dropping the label "Cold Fusion" and replacing it with something "new" > such as LENR, or an "ECN reaction" would accelerate the acceptance and > adoption of "CF" to the world, would this community be in favor of it? > > Reasons: > 1. We have just seen a successful example of publicity and publication > that, IMHO, occured because McKubre refused to label his work "Cold Fusion". > 2. Nobody, outside of the "CF" community really knows what CF is..... > They THINK they know and have concluded that it is fraud and bad science. > Of course most of them have not read any papers or done any first-hand > reporting, so they really know nothing. But their minds are FIXED and it may > be a lot easier to put CF to rest and start promoting a new name. > 3. If you take the label away AND are willing to take the BIG CLAIMS away > and just say, "look here...I took this chemical and this process....and I > got this result - you become a far more difficult target for critics and > censors to attack and to thwart. > > okay..... > > Steve Krivit > > > > ---------End of Included Message---------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 11:08:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA32638; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:08:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:08:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3B950AAD.9FFE76B6 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 11:09:22 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Scientist: Cold Fusion Experiment Produces Mysterious Results References: <3B95067B.9C4BF02E bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1CbEh2.0.tz7.4YHbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This article, although apparently objective, is a perfect example of the distortion applied to cold fusion. Terry Blanton wrote: > [There's more holes in the dike than coventional science has > fingers ;-)] From: > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991234 > > A "cold fusion" experiment in California has produced tantalising > results - but critics say they may not indicate that cold fusion > has actually taken place. Only three possibilities exist; the tritium claim is a lie, the tritium came from outside the cell, or the tritium resulted from a nuclear reaction within the cell. If the latter is true, CF had to be involved. What is the point of quoting such a simple conclusion. > > > Most physicists treat claims of cold fusion with derision. > However, an underground of enthusiasts has continued performing > experiments which, they say, demonstrate that deuterium nuclei > can fuse to produce tritium and helium isotopes during the > electrolysis of heavy water with palladium electrodes. The few > outsiders who have tried to repeat the experiments have failed, > and claims for cold fusion have not survived peer review to > appear in mainstream journals. The claims have been duplicated hundreds of times and the results have been published in peer reviewed journals. I know of over 175 examples of such papers. > > > Now Brian Clarke of McMaster University in Ontario, Canada, has > found something that is not easily explained away. > > Researchers at SRI International, a private laboratory in > California, carried out a cold fusion experiment - passing a > current through heavy water using palladium electrodes - and > claimed to see more heat produced than could be explained by the > electric power used. They then sent their electrodes to Clarke > for analysis. He discovered that they contained more than 10^15> > atoms of tritium, a heavy radioactive isotope of hydrogen. > > "There's no question of the tritium being real," Clarke told New > Scientist. > > Although this is more tritium than you would expect to find in a > palladium electrode, it is still about 20,000 times less than the > amount that would have been produced if the excess heat observed > in the SRI experiments had been produced by the fusion of > deuterium nuclei, as cold fusion advocates predict. They also > predict that helium should be produced in these fusion reactions, > but Clarke saw no evidence of helium in the electrodes. Not mentioned is the fact that most of the He4 was pumped out by mistake when the sample was analyzed by Clarke. > > > "I have no explanation of how the tritium was produced," Clarke > told > New Scientist. > > Michael McKubre, who performed the SRI experiments, says: "I am > not convinced it's a fusion process, but it's definitely a > nuclear process." Cold Fusion does not involve only fusion reactions. Any anomalous nuclear reaction taking place within a solid environment near room temperature falls into the category of CANR (aka cold fusion). > > > A spokesman for the UK Atomic Energy Authority's Culham > Laboratory who has seen Clarke's analysis said the small amount > of tritium "indicates it's an electrochemical effect"--that the > heat is produced by the making or breaking of chemical bonds > rather than the fusing of nuclei. This is complete nonsense. Anyone who examined the paper with even the slightest care and who had not slept through basic chemistry could make such a statement. It is one thing not to believe that such excess energy is possible, it is another thing to make nonsense statements and have them quoted. > > > Clarke also investigated similar experiments led by Yoshiaki > Arata of Osaka University, Japan. Arata's team claimed to have > detected an excess of helium-3 and helium-4 isotopes following > the heavy water electrolysis. But Clarke's analysis revealed no > excess. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 11:14:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02055; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:14:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:14:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3B950C42.D29565BB ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 11:16:08 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Semantics ? References: <242211476.512690882.4294657679 Butthead.linkline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HPoNa.0.0W.vdHbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steve Krivit wrote: > I have a HERETICAL question for this (heretical) group: > > If dropping the label "Cold Fusion" and replacing it with something "new" > such as LENR, or an "ECN reaction" would accelerate the acceptance and > adoption of "CF" to the world, would this community be in favor of it? > > Reasons: > 1. We have just seen a successful example of publicity and publication > that, IMHO, occured because McKubre refused to label his work "Cold Fusion". > 2. Nobody, outside of the "CF" community really knows what CF is..... > They THINK they know and have concluded that it is fraud and bad science. > Of course most of them have not read any papers or done any first-hand > reporting, so they really know nothing. But their minds are FIXED and it may > be a lot easier to put CF to rest and start promoting a new name. > 3. If you take the label away AND are willing to take the BIG CLAIMS away > and just say, "look here...I took this chemical and this process....and I > got this result - you become a far more difficult target for critics and > censors to attack and to thwart. > > okay..... > > Steve Krivit I agree, this approach might work someday. However, you need to assume the skeptics are stupid in addition to being closed minded. The skeptics know full well that nuclear products are being claimed where they should not exist and energy production is being claimed where it should not occur. These claims are identical to those made by cold fusion, therefore they are the same thing. A skeptic would have to have been brain-dead for the past 12 years for this relationship not to be seen. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 11:37:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA11885; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:35:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:35:24 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904140037.02b459a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 14:35:25 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. In-Reply-To: <007701c134dd$bd10dbe0$9a56ccd1 asus> References: <999544612.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"tv9Xd1.0.Zv2.ixHbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >I'm delighted by McKubre's report on NPR and more importantly on the >publication of his forthcoming paper. Hear, hear! > Arata's collaborator, >Zhang, was9is?) head of the metallurgy department at Hokkaido University >where Arata resides in the Arata building. You mean Osaka University. Was she the head of metallurgy? I didn't know that. >Many forget that the heavy investment necessary to jumpstart >the integrated circuits technology came from the Air Force, who needed >microcircuits for ICBMs -- without that impetus, the semiconductor >flowering might not have occurred, or taken a different path, or been >delayed by decades. It would be a different world. The military was the biggest, but other forces were pushing transistor development. The phone company was reaching the practical limits of vacuum tube technology in the network. That is why Bell Labs was anxious to develop a solid state amplifier in the first place, before the rest of the world gave it much thought. As the number of connections and transmission distance increased, the telephone central switching offices were becoming unwieldy. They wanted to introduce direct dial long distance, which is hard to imagine with vacuum tubes. The burgeoning computer industry took note of transistors immediately. IBM, UNIVAC and others began work on computer applications, but it was several years before transistors were powerful enough or fast enough to be of use. The government was a big supporter, at the Census Bureau, the Pentagon and the national labs. The first transistorized computer (TRADIC) was made for the Air Force by Bell Labs in 1954. It was ~20 times more expensive than a vacuum tube machine, and not quite as fast, but much smaller. ("Crystal Fire," p. 204) "These military applications provided an immediate market for transistors where cost was not a concern. . . After 1951 the armed services began pouring millions into transistor development at the labs. . ." On the other hand, people did develop miniature and microscopic tubes, which might have done the job. There is no question the military sped things up. The phone company alone might have screwed up, and many early attempts to adapt transistors to computers failed. When integrated circuits were developed, the U.S. phone company dropped the ball and did not participate for 3 or 4 years. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 12:33:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02586; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:31:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:31:13 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904150430.00aa2168 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:30:46 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New Scientist: Cold Fusion Experiment Produces Mysterious Results In-Reply-To: <3B950AAD.9FFE76B6 ix.netcom.com> References: <3B95067B.9C4BF02E bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"HeWOf.0.Ke.1mIbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: > electrolysis of heavy water with palladium electrodes. The few > > outsiders who have tried to repeat the experiments have failed, > > and claims for cold fusion have not survived peer review to > > appear in mainstream journals. > >The claims have been duplicated hundreds of times . . . Ah, but when someone replicates, they become an "insider." It says "the few outsiders." These are, by definition, people who cannot replicate, or people who did replicate but refuse to admit it, like Steve Koonin. To understand these statements, it helps to wear prismatic glasses that turn the image upside down before it reaches your retina, or hold the page up to a funhouse mirror. >and the results have been published in peer reviewed journals. I know of >over 175 examples of such papers. Skeptics do not read peer reviewed journals, so they never see the papers. They can say with a clear conscience and plausible deniability that papers have not "appeared." These people suffer from what might be called immature perception. Try this test with a baby under 10 months of age. Hold up an object that attracts her attention, and when she reaches for it, move it behind your back or behind a screen or pillow. She will look around for a moment with a puzzled expression, and then conclude that the object has disappeared. If she is in a good mood, she will laugh and clap her hands at this peekaboo magic trick, just as the skeptics do. >Not mentioned is the fact that most of the He4 was pumped out by >mistake when the sample was analyzed by Clarke. Wasn't it pumped out earlier, at PNL? Otherwise, how would they know it was 10E15 atoms, and how would they correlate the helium-3 and tritium to estimate when it was created. I have not seen the paper. I saw the Clarke manuscript. Is that the same thing? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 12:43:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA09040; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:42:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:42:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3B9520FB.F0DDFE5E ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:44:41 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. References: <999624565.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Pjcc02.0.4D2.pwIbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: > ---------Included Message---------- > > Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 08:47:08 -0600 > > From: "Edmund Storms" > > Reply-To: > > To: > > Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. > > > > > > > > slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: > > > > > ---------Included Message---------- > > > > Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 01:35:46 -0400 > > > > From: "Mitchell Swartz" > > > > Reply-To: > > > > To: > > > > Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. > > > > > > > > At 10:05 PM 9/3/2001 -0800, you wrote: > > > > > > > >I can't wait to get the paper... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Second, Case/McKubre/George have duplicated helium/heat > production > > using simple gas loading of finely divided Pd, but without any > > evidence for tritium production. > > The Extrel C-50 Quadrapole Mass Spectrometer was not sensitive enough > to distinguish between the mass 3 ash products. I caution not to jump > to the conclusion that tritium wasn't there, because it was not > measured and was not reported. They did measure was He-4, proof of > cold fusion. > > Thus, I'm not sure that there is more than one reaction going on here. > There very well may be. > > > Why the powdered Pd of Arata would give tritium but > > the Case method does not is still a mystery. > > Do we know that tritium wasn't produced by the Case method? > I don't think so. Tritium decays to He3 which is easy to detect and is looked for when He4 is measured. He3 has not been detected during the Case study. This does not mean that under appropriate conditions, it would not be produced. It's production has been found to be rare and it might show up at any time if the conditions are right. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 13:57:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10438; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:56:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:56:50 -0700 From: Steve Krivit To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Semantics ? - the opponents Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:56:00 -0700 X-Mailer: MailBeamer v3.24 (Win98) Message-ID: <242229477.530694562.4294657679 Butthead.linkline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dAlLD1.0.wY2.H0Kbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed: > A skeptic would have to have been brain-dead for the past 12 years for this > relationship not to be seen. I agree. And I suppose the idea was structured not in the interests of trying to convince the opponents - but in communicating to the general public and getting thier attention. Perhaps I'm being too naiive, but it seems that human nature likes to quantify and identify new things and once identified, it becomes a monumental taks to re-assign their meaning. It also seems that human nature, and the media loves novelty (eg Ginger) even if they don't understand it. Although I dont' appreciate every action he has done, Bill Gates has shown brilliance in his marketing strategy with the transition from "Windows NT 4" to "Windows 2000": NT 5 was so long overdue, an embarrassment with respect to the projected delivery date, and so over-hyped that at one point they re-branded it to Windows 2000 - and all but the techies knew exactly what it was. But the consumers didn't care - they bought it, happily. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 13:57:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10454; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:56:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:56:51 -0700 From: Steve Krivit To: "vortex-L eskimo.com" Subject: RE: Cold fusion is real. Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:56:00 -0700 X-Mailer: MailBeamer v3.24 (Win98) Message-ID: <242229478.530695662.4294657679 Butthead.linkline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Zwqxg1.0.AZ2.I0Kbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed: >I fear that the public and politicians will not be swayed unless a >commercial product prototype is shown. This may be impossible. okay then....what IS possible? Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 13:57:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09301; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:54:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:54:55 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904165158.02b297f8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:54:46 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: New Scientist: Cold Fusion Experiment Produces Mysterious Results In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904150430.00aa2168 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3B950AAD.9FFE76B6 ix.netcom.com> <3B95067B.9C4BF02E bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"6rshg.0.FH2.V-Jbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >>Not mentioned is the fact that most of the He4 was pumped out by >>mistake when the sample was analyzed by Clarke. > >Wasn't it pumped out earlier, at PNL? Otherwise, how would they know it >was 10E15 atoms . . . Ah, wait. I think I see. They took a sample of gas at PNL and sent the whole thing to McMaster where the rest leaked out by accident. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 14:25:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21211; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:23:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:23:43 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904170005.02b40368 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:10:18 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "vortex-L@eskimo.com" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Cold fusion is real. In-Reply-To: <242229478.530695662.4294657679 Butthead.linkline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"tUUZs3.0.GB5.PPKbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve Krivit wrote: >Jed: > > >I fear that the public and politicians will not be swayed unless a > >commercial product prototype is shown. This may be impossible. > >okay then....what IS possible? I sometimes wonder. It is a Catch-22 predicament. Let us hope that someone with great skill and ingenuity comes up with a very convincing experiment. That seems like the last, best hope, as Lincoln said of the Union during another desperate crisis. Cold fusion is a crisis, although most of the time it resembles a farce. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 14:38:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA27939; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:38:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:38:08 -0700 From: Steve Krivit To: Jed Rothwell , "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: RE: Cold fusion is real. Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:40:00 -0700 X-Mailer: MailBeamer v3.24 (Win98) Message-ID: <242231940.533158382.4294657679 Butthead.linkline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"r2t3X1.0.Mq6._cKbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed: >okay then....what IS possible? - sometimes wonder. It is a Catch-22 predicament. Let us hope that someone -with great skill and ingenuity comes up with a very convincing experiment. -That seems like the last, best hope, as Lincoln said of the Union during -another desperate crisis. Cold fusion is a crisis, although most of the -time it resembles a farce. So I understand that the Wright brothers came up with very convincing experiment too, but no press came, despite the invitations. I wonder how the fact of a flying machine got to be accepted by the public. I don't know. Is your knowledge of history better than mine? Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 14:43:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA30400; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:42:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:42:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3B954B76.CF679C9D bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:45:26 -0400 From: Terry Blanton Organization: . X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904170005.02b40368 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XGI-F3.0.vQ7.ShKbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Steve Krivit wrote: > > >Jed: > > > > >I fear that the public and politicians will not be swayed unless a > > >commercial product prototype is shown. This may be impossible. > > > >okay then....what IS possible? > > I sometimes wonder. It is a Catch-22 predicament. Let us hope that someone > with great skill and ingenuity comes up with a very convincing experiment. > That seems like the last, best hope, as Lincoln said of the Union during > another desperate crisis. Cold fusion is a crisis, although most of the > time it resembles a farce. Well, if you could convince the military you could make a weapon of mass destruction . . . Hey, it worked before! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 14:50:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA01044; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:50:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:50:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3B954D2D.42E08BD1 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:52:45 -0400 From: Terry Blanton Organization: . X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904170005.02b40368 pop.mindspring.com> <3B954B76.CF679C9D@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aj_lS.0.8G.OoKbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Well, if you could convince the military you could make a weapon > of mass destruction . . . > > Hey, it worked before! How many moles of tritium does our nuclear weapons system require annually? Right now, most, if not all is being produced at the Savannah River Plant in a rather nasty aging reactor, IIRC. Didn't McKubre produce over a half mole? Just a thought. . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 15:21:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA16162; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:20:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:20:01 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904180132.00aa2168 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 18:20:03 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Tritium needed for nuclear weapons In-Reply-To: <3B954D2D.42E08BD1 bellsouth.net> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904170005.02b40368 pop.mindspring.com> <3B954B76.CF679C9D bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"hz-Ur3.0.Oy3.HELbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >How many moles of tritium does our nuclear weapons system require >annually? I think it takes a few grams per bomb, and the half-life is 12 years. There are now roughly 9,600 bombs left in the U.S. arsenal, according to the Federation of American Scientists. The government plans to spend somewhere between $2 and $6 billion to make tritium. See: http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/97-002.htm >Didn't McKubre produce over a half mole? No, only 5 x 10^15 atoms. A half mole would be 3 x 10^23 atoms. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 15:29:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA20342; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:29:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:29:12 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 08:28:42 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <999611446.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> <3B94E964.8FEAA7D2@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <3B94E964.8FEAA7D2 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA20281 Resent-Message-ID: <"lTKxZ3.0.iz4.tMLbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 04 Sep 2001 08:47:08 -0600: [snip] >First of all, the tritium producing reaction has been initiated using the >Pons-Fleischmann method many times, hence is a normal but rare part of >the CANR phenomenon. Clearly, different conditions within the special >nuclear-active environment produce different nuclear reactions, including >complex transmutation and fission reactions. Apparently, conditions can >exist that allow a small part of the fusion energy to be retained by one >of the nuclear products. If neutrons are also emitted, they are not >detected, hence would have to have only thermal energy. The CANR process >appears to be more complex than many explanations have acknowledged. > >Second, Case/McKubre/George have duplicated helium/heat production using >simple gas loading of finely divided Pd, but without any evidence for >tritium production. Why the powdered Pd of Arata would give tritium but >the Case method does not is still a mystery. [snip] I would point out that Mills has long claimed that Deuterinos undergoing "CAF" (Coulombic Annihilation Fusion) as he labels it, produce primarily tritium, because the protons try to keep as far away from one another during the reaction as possible. IOW the tritium could be the result of fusion resulting from Deuterino formation. Excess heat not explained by the nuclear products would also be expected in this case, resulting from the formation of deuterinos that haven't yet fused. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 15:42:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA21199; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:31:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:31:20 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 08:29:59 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6elapt0bkna4nbps3f40fevh3t6ulbbvs6 4ax.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904170005.02b40368 pop.mindspring.com> <3B954B76.CF679C9D@bellsouth.net> <3B954D2D.42E08BD1@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <3B954D2D.42E08BD1 bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA21144 Resent-Message-ID: <"_Fedq2.0.8B5.uOLbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 04 Sep 2001 17:52:45 -0400: >Terry Blanton wrote: > >> Well, if you could convince the military you could make a weapon >> of mass destruction . . . >> >> Hey, it worked before! > >How many moles of tritium does our nuclear weapons system require >annually? Right now, most, if not all is being produced at the >Savannah River Plant in a rather nasty aging reactor, IIRC. >Didn't McKubre produce over a half mole? [snip] I think "half an exponent" would be closer. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 15:55:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31009; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:54:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:54:34 -0700 Message-ID: <3B954DD2.CEA9AFD1 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 15:56:19 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904170005.02b40368 pop.mindspring.com> <3B954B76.CF679C9D@bellsouth.net> <3B954D2D.42E08BD1@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FTmla3.0.Ra7.fkLbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Well, if you could convince the military you could make a weapon > > of mass destruction . . . > > > > Hey, it worked before! > > How many moles of tritium does our nuclear weapons system require > annually? That number is classified. However, some people claim that enough tritium is in the stockpile and in old weapons to last years. > Right now, most, if not all is being produced at the > Savannah River Plant in a rather nasty aging reactor, IIRC. This is a surprise to me. I though this reactor was shut down years ago. > > Didn't McKubre produce over a half mole? A mole is 6x10^23 atoms. McKubre made about 10^15 atoms. This is not enough tritium to illuminate a watch face. Ed > > > Just a thought. . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 15:59:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA32706; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:58:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:58:36 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200109040155.VAA24192 mercury.mv.net> References: <200109040155.VAA24192 mercury.mv.net> Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:58:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"KgZDL1.0.t-7.SoLbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eugene Mallove's posting on this reminds me of a question I asked him and never got a reply. Jack Carey said that you had tested the motor generator that Dennis Lee has. What did you find? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 16:22:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA11550; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:21:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:21:46 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Scientist: Cold Fusion Experiment Produces Mysterious Results Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:21:11 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3B950AAD.9FFE76B6 ix.netcom.com> <3B95067B.9C4BF02E@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010904150430.00aa2168@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010904165158.02b297f8@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904165158.02b297f8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA11501 Resent-Message-ID: <"S2aB93.0.Nq2.A8Mbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:54:46 -0400: >I wrote: > >>>Not mentioned is the fact that most of the He4 was pumped out by >>>mistake when the sample was analyzed by Clarke. >> >>Wasn't it pumped out earlier, at PNL? Otherwise, how would they know it >>was 10E15 atoms . . . > >Ah, wait. I think I see. They took a sample of gas at PNL and sent the >whole thing to McMaster where the rest leaked out by accident. How exactly does one go about losing the He4 while retaining the He3 and T? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 16:28:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA14903; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:27:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:27:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:27:24 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Podkletnov Q&A session (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"kniYS.0.Oe3.cDMbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See below. This is from http://users.telemail.it/gmodanese/forum.htm ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 09:26:56 +0100 From: Robert Chambers To: billb eskimo.com Subject: Podkletnov Q&A session This has apparently come from http://www.gravity.com - but I was unable to verify this. You might find it useful. Questions and answers ? September 1, 2001 1. Is the chamber made of one single piece of high-quality fused silica quartz or several segments welded together? The chamber is made of 3 sections of tubes of silica quartz and was made at one of Russian factories. Of course it is possible to make a smaller chamber and to use steel with quartz glass windows or to use some plastic materials, but in that case you won?t be able to reach high vacuum. However, that may be not important. You can easily work in rough vacuum, the goal is to avoid the condensation of moisture. 2. Making the assumption that the main coil around the quartz tube contains approx. 330 turns, in order to obtain 0.9 T along the bore would require approx. 3.2 MW of power (1880 A at 1.7 kV). Is this the case? No. The length of this coil is about 0.3 meters and there are several axial layers, so that the thickness of the wounding is about 10 cm. The parameters above need to be recalculated. 3. Did you need a cryopump as well as a mechanical pump to obtain 1 Pa vacuum? I would have expected just the mechanical pump alone would have done the job. A mechanical pump can suffice, as we need just to take all the moisture away from the chamber so that there is no material or gas that is condensed on the emitter and its holder during the discharge. 4. Does the effect get better as the temperature of the disk decreases? The effect gets slightly better when the temperature of the disk decreases below Tc, but this fact is not crucial for the experiment. 5. Does the effect also increase as the length of time the high voltage pulse remains at, say, 1 MV? We didn?t observe any dependence. 6. Does the effect increase with distance between the emitter and the target? The effect increases with the distance between the emitter and the target and this can be observed easily with configurations in figures 1 and 2. The set-up of figure 3 is the best decision and the effect depends mainly on the voltage of the discharge. 7. Was there a time lag between the high voltage pulse and the start of the movement of the pendulum? Probably there is, but the delay is really short and we didn?t measure it. 8. Have you considered lining up many pendulums one behind the other - do you think they would all deflect the same amount? Could you in principle line up an infinite number and obtain an infinite amount of energy with a finite energy input? We tried several pendulums, up to 5, the deflection is the same. Probably with many pendulums one would start to observe some energy depletion from the beam. 9. Did any of the pendulum bobs show any signs of heating up after repeated pulses? We didn?t observe any heating. 10. Did you see a pendulum swing at the same time as you applied the discharge or it was somehow a static deflection? The impulse sets the pendulum in motion and then the oscillation dies out with its own decay time. The coincidence with the discharge was only observed visually. The impulse propagation appears to be very fast, but quantitative data are lacking on this point, so we did not emphasize it in the paper. Technically it should be possible to compare the signal from the discharge with the output of the microphone. 11. Did you eliminate all possibilities of some other well known but accidental influence (such as shaking or disturbance due to nearby truck or train passing, for example) making the pendulum swing? We are very serious about our work, and there are no trains passing near our laboratory, I also do not believe that any shaking can move the pendulum 6 inches away unless it is an earthquake. 12. I would like to suggest a simple modification to the experiment. Why not to try to apply discharge periodically at the resonant frequency of the pendulum (or at fractions of it). So instead of measuring a swing which eventually dies out (due to friction), periodic application of the discharge would excite the motion of the pendulum resonantly and make it swing as long as you apply the discharge. This way it would help to eliminate any spurious effects due to accidental influence from other objects, which is sporadic and hence incapable of sustaining the excitation of the motion of the pendulum for a long time. The proposal of resonant pulses is interesting and can easily be done. The only drawback I see is that the swing amplitude will depend on one more parameter, namely the frequency. However, I think a better proof is a thick dictionary taying on the table and falling down at the moment of the discharge and this can be observed several times and at maximum capacity we can even throw this thick book away from the table entirely? We have performed many hundreds of discharges using different conditions and superconducting emitters. The discharge chamber was shielded by a Faraday cage and all the pendula were shielded by a metal plate with the thickness of 1 inch. The second set of pendula was situated 150 m away and was separated by two brick walls from the discharge chamber. I do not know any static or other electromagnetic forces that can move an object at this distance under these conditions. 13. Have you tried conventional emitter materials, such as Cu, Cs, etc., and do you get any extraordinary results with them? All conventional materials gave no unusual effect, we used copper, Al, steel, chromites. 14. Have you tested any effects at 180 degrees from the beam direction? There is a strange effect at the backside of the installation opposite to the discharge: the main discharge is accompanied by some radiation that is dangerous for human biological tissues. This radiation goes about 15 meters back and has a form of a cone with the diameter of about 2-2.5 meters at the distance of 12-15 meters. Any biological tissue under stress or load may be fused with any other material, such as steel, plastic and so on. It is dangerous to stay behind the discharge chamber. The impulse itself is not dangerous and can be felt by hand. The radiation at the back side is not studied yet. Its origin might be in the dissociation of Cooper pairs just outside the SC electrode, followed by recombination with helium ions to form neutral helium. This could produce an e.m. radiation with wavelenght such to escape the Faraday cage and to heat tissues. 15. Have you used a cloud chamber anywhere along the beam to see if there might be some nuclear particles being emitted? We did not use any cloud chamber and usual Geiger counter gives no indication but the discharge is very short in time. 16. Have you placed any biological material, such as a test mouse, in the beam path to see if there is any effect? It would seem to me that this force, whatever it is, might be extremely dangerous biologically. The main impulse gives no observable damage, perhaps long time exposure might cause some changes. 17. I am slightly confused by the diagram in Figure 4, which shows the output of the pulse generator as being a positive voltage. Is the emitter connected to a positive or negative voltage? Figure 4 suggests a positive voltage, yet the description in section 3 suggests a negative voltage as a huge charge of electrons leaves the emitter and strikes the target. Indeed, what happens if the voltage on the emitter is reversed? Figure 4 is a general purpose scheme. The SC electrode is actually negative and the reversed configuration does not work. 18. I am struck by the crudeness of the instrumentation for measurement of the impulse. A pendulum seems more like 18th century science. I would suggest that a piezoelectric transducer attached to a test mass might provide a better and more accurate detector, since it can be calibrated for momentum & force integration fairly easily. It is true that the pendulum seems more like old science, but results with a pendulum are straightforward and unambiguous. We did consider using a piezo; eventually we used a condenser microphone, for simplicity; but the problem is that these devices have a peculiar transfer function depending on the frequency of the signal. So either you are able to reconstruct properly the original signal, or the information is incomplete. ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 16:50:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA24839; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:50:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:50:07 -0700 Message-ID: <004a01c135b5$3d63fc00$5256ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <999544612.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010904140037.02b459a0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real and Hurrah for integrated circuits and video games Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 19:47:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"mUbLz3.0.146.kYMbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: Mike Carrell wrote: > > >I'm delighted by McKubre's report on NPR and more importantly on the > >publication of his forthcoming paper. > > Hear, hear! > > > > Arata's collaborator, > >Zhang, was9is?) head of the metallurgy department at Hokkaido University > >where Arata resides in the Arata building. > > You mean Osaka University. Was she the head of metallurgy? I didn't know that. Jed, thanks for the correction. My memory on the university was faulty, but I do believe that Zhang if not head of metallurgy was in that department, so they had the resources and know-how to perform the machining and welding of the palladium capsule. It's a specialty. > > > >Many forget that the heavy investment necessary to jumpstart > >the integrated circuits technology came from the Air Force, who needed > >microcircuits for ICBMs -- without that impetus, the semiconductor > >flowering might not have occurred, or taken a different path, or been > >delayed by decades. It would be a different world. > > The military was the biggest, but other forces were pushing transistor > development. The phone company was reaching the practical limits of vacuum > tube technology in the network. That is why Bell Labs was anxious to > develop a solid state amplifier in the first place, before the rest of the > world gave it much thought. As the number of connections and transmission > distance increased, the telephone central switching offices were becoming > unwieldy. They wanted to introduce direct dial long distance, which is hard > to imagine with vacuum tubes. > > The burgeoning computer industry took note of transistors immediately. IBM, > UNIVAC and others began work on computer applications, but it was several > years before transistors were powerful enough or fast enough to be of use. > The government was a big supporter, at the Census Bureau, the Pentagon and > the national labs. The first transistorized computer (TRADIC) was made for > the Air Force by Bell Labs in 1954. It was ~20 times more expensive than a > vacuum tube machine, and not quite as fast, but much smaller. ("Crystal > Fire," p. 204) "These military applications provided an immediate market > for transistors where cost was not a concern. . . After 1951 the armed > services began pouring millions into transistor development at the labs. . ." > > On the other hand, people did develop miniature and microscopic tubes, > which might have done the job. There is no question the military sped > things up. The phone company alone might have screwed up, and many early > attempts to adapt transistors to computers failed. When integrated circuits > were developed, the U.S. phone company dropped the ball and did not > participate for 3 or 4 years. I didn't trace back to Bell Lab's invention of the transistor to make the story short. Transistors were a case of a deliberate invention to replace mechanical switches, which clearly were not going to carry the telephone system into the post war era of growth. The difference between a transistor and integrated circuits is so different in impact as to belong in an entirely different class. It is a qualitative, not a quantitative difference. I was a young engineer as the transition was happening. The first transistors were point contact, very unreliable. Then came junction transistors, a bit better. But they were always discrete devices, most of the bulk in packaging and leads. They had to be connected to resistors and capacitors and inductors, each connection costly in labor and chances for error. Various ingenious packaging schemes were proposed and implemented, some under military sponsorship. Yes, you got rind of the heat and power problem of vacuum tubes. In that era, RCA designed the Nuvistor, a miniature triode vacuum tube of excellent design, not much bigger than some of the transistor packages of the day. For years they had a niche in TV tuners until real high frequency transistors were built. It was the invention of the **planar** transistor, that could be made by refined photolithography on a wafer, that was the first big step. The second was developing capacitors and resistors and connections that could also be produced by photolithography. These did not come together until the '60s, and the transistor was invented in the '40s. The early versions were of such low circuit density, just a few gates, and were so costly, that commercial manufacturers were not that interested at the time. The wafers were small, and inch or two in diameter, and the yield was low because the number of elements that all had to work meant that one defect could ruin a whole circuit. Getting the process control to the required level of excellence was an incremental struggle that took decades and cost tens of thousands of man-hours -- now 8-inch wafer are standard and 12 inch are on the way. It took the USAF investment to push the process over a knee to the point where the potential was clear and it was clear that further investment would yield dazzling results. Then the commercial market forces took over. The fundamental fact that both transistors and their interconnections are made in one tightly controlled process environment made all the difference. Hand assembly, even automated assembly with printed circuit boards and solder baths just will not produce a reliable entity with several million transistors. Thus I stand by my assertion about the critical role of a weapons program to push humanity to a higher plateau of technology. Without that push, it is arguable that commercial interests alone would not have made the critical investments. Giving due respect to Jed's market forces rationale, I will add that the single factor that created the superfast gigahertz commodity PCs is video games. You don't need such performance for office work. But who would have predicted this? Mike Carrell > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 17:00:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29930; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:59:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:59:45 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Podkletnov Q&A session (fwd) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:07:16 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"LbyBU3.0.RJ7.mhMbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All. Here's the link from www.gravity.org http://users.telemail.it/gmodanese/forum.htm the .com address is wrong. The biological radiation thing is truely bizarre. How is that being measured? And whats the effect? Also, the fact that the distance between emitter and target matters, but that the type of emitter doesn't, is also very unusual. The fact that the beam penetrates walls etc but interacts with the pendulum is frnakly unbelievable. I'll be charitable and say there's some miscommunication here. Beam energy should decrease accordingly. I can understand how this could be large as the impulse driving the thing is pretty intense. Hey Bill, any chance to get G. Modanese on the list?? K. -----Original Message----- From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 7:27 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Podkletnov Q&A session (fwd) See below. This is from http://users.telemail.it/gmodanese/forum.htm ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 09:26:56 +0100 From: Robert Chambers To: billb eskimo.com Subject: Podkletnov Q&A session This has apparently come from http://www.gravity.com - but I was unable to verify this. You might find it useful. Questions and answers ? September 1, 2001 1. Is the chamber made of one single piece of high-quality fused silica quartz or several segments welded together? The chamber is made of 3 sections of tubes of silica quartz and was made at one of Russian factories. Of course it is possible to make a smaller chamber and to use steel with quartz glass windows or to use some plastic materials, but in that case you won?t be able to reach high vacuum. However, that may be not important. You can easily work in rough vacuum, the goal is to avoid the condensation of moisture. 2. Making the assumption that the main coil around the quartz tube contains approx. 330 turns, in order to obtain 0.9 T along the bore would require approx. 3.2 MW of power (1880 A at 1.7 kV). Is this the case? No. The length of this coil is about 0.3 meters and there are several axial layers, so that the thickness of the wounding is about 10 cm. The parameters above need to be recalculated. 3. Did you need a cryopump as well as a mechanical pump to obtain 1 Pa vacuum? I would have expected just the mechanical pump alone would have done the job. A mechanical pump can suffice, as we need just to take all the moisture away from the chamber so that there is no material or gas that is condensed on the emitter and its holder during the discharge. 4. Does the effect get better as the temperature of the disk decreases? The effect gets slightly better when the temperature of the disk decreases below Tc, but this fact is not crucial for the experiment. 5. Does the effect also increase as the length of time the high voltage pulse remains at, say, 1 MV? We didn?t observe any dependence. 6. Does the effect increase with distance between the emitter and the target? The effect increases with the distance between the emitter and the target and this can be observed easily with configurations in figures 1 and 2. The set-up of figure 3 is the best decision and the effect depends mainly on the voltage of the discharge. 7. Was there a time lag between the high voltage pulse and the start of the movement of the pendulum? Probably there is, but the delay is really short and we didn?t measure it. 8. Have you considered lining up many pendulums one behind the other - do you think they would all deflect the same amount? Could you in principle line up an infinite number and obtain an infinite amount of energy with a finite energy input? We tried several pendulums, up to 5, the deflection is the same. Probably with many pendulums one would start to observe some energy depletion from the beam. 9. Did any of the pendulum bobs show any signs of heating up after repeated pulses? We didn?t observe any heating. 10. Did you see a pendulum swing at the same time as you applied the discharge or it was somehow a static deflection? The impulse sets the pendulum in motion and then the oscillation dies out with its own decay time. The coincidence with the discharge was only observed visually. The impulse propagation appears to be very fast, but quantitative data are lacking on this point, so we did not emphasize it in the paper. Technically it should be possible to compare the signal from the discharge with the output of the microphone. 11. Did you eliminate all possibilities of some other well known but accidental influence (such as shaking or disturbance due to nearby truck or train passing, for example) making the pendulum swing? We are very serious about our work, and there are no trains passing near our laboratory, I also do not believe that any shaking can move the pendulum 6 inches away unless it is an earthquake. 12. I would like to suggest a simple modification to the experiment. Why not to try to apply discharge periodically at the resonant frequency of the pendulum (or at fractions of it). So instead of measuring a swing which eventually dies out (due to friction), periodic application of the discharge would excite the motion of the pendulum resonantly and make it swing as long as you apply the discharge. This way it would help to eliminate any spurious effects due to accidental influence from other objects, which is sporadic and hence incapable of sustaining the excitation of the motion of the pendulum for a long time. The proposal of resonant pulses is interesting and can easily be done. The only drawback I see is that the swing amplitude will depend on one more parameter, namely the frequency. However, I think a better proof is a thick dictionary taying on the table and falling down at the moment of the discharge and this can be observed several times and at maximum capacity we can even throw this thick book away from the table entirely? We have performed many hundreds of discharges using different conditions and superconducting emitters. The discharge chamber was shielded by a Faraday cage and all the pendula were shielded by a metal plate with the thickness of 1 inch. The second set of pendula was situated 150 m away and was separated by two brick walls from the discharge chamber. I do not know any static or other electromagnetic forces that can move an object at this distance under these conditions. 13. Have you tried conventional emitter materials, such as Cu, Cs, etc., and do you get any extraordinary results with them? All conventional materials gave no unusual effect, we used copper, Al, steel, chromites. 14. Have you tested any effects at 180 degrees from the beam direction? There is a strange effect at the backside of the installation opposite to the discharge: the main discharge is accompanied by some radiation that is dangerous for human biological tissues. This radiation goes about 15 meters back and has a form of a cone with the diameter of about 2-2.5 meters at the distance of 12-15 meters. Any biological tissue under stress or load may be fused with any other material, such as steel, plastic and so on. It is dangerous to stay behind the discharge chamber. The impulse itself is not dangerous and can be felt by hand. The radiation at the back side is not studied yet. Its origin might be in the dissociation of Cooper pairs just outside the SC electrode, followed by recombination with helium ions to form neutral helium. This could produce an e.m. radiation with wavelenght such to escape the Faraday cage and to heat tissues. 15. Have you used a cloud chamber anywhere along the beam to see if there might be some nuclear particles being emitted? We did not use any cloud chamber and usual Geiger counter gives no indication but the discharge is very short in time. 16. Have you placed any biological material, such as a test mouse, in the beam path to see if there is any effect? It would seem to me that this force, whatever it is, might be extremely dangerous biologically. The main impulse gives no observable damage, perhaps long time exposure might cause some changes. 17. I am slightly confused by the diagram in Figure 4, which shows the output of the pulse generator as being a positive voltage. Is the emitter connected to a positive or negative voltage? Figure 4 suggests a positive voltage, yet the description in section 3 suggests a negative voltage as a huge charge of electrons leaves the emitter and strikes the target. Indeed, what happens if the voltage on the emitter is reversed? Figure 4 is a general purpose scheme. The SC electrode is actually negative and the reversed configuration does not work. 18. I am struck by the crudeness of the instrumentation for measurement of the impulse. A pendulum seems more like 18th century science. I would suggest that a piezoelectric transducer attached to a test mass might provide a better and more accurate detector, since it can be calibrated for momentum & force integration fairly easily. It is true that the pendulum seems more like old science, but results with a pendulum are straightforward and unambiguous. We did consider using a piezo; eventually we used a condenser microphone, for simplicity; but the problem is that these devices have a peculiar transfer function depending on the frequency of the signal. So either you are able to reconstruct properly the original signal, or the information is incomplete. ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 17:11:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA01915; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:10:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:10:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3B958BCC.3BF6 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:19:56 -0700 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tritium needed for nuclear weapons References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904170005.02b40368 pop.mindspring.com> <3B954B76.CF679C9D bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010904180132.00aa2168@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"w25BA1.0.pT.BsMbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Terry Blanton wrote: > > >How many moles of tritium does our nuclear weapons system require > >annually? > > I think it takes a few grams per bomb, and the half-life is 12 years. There > are now roughly 9,600 bombs left in the U.S. arsenal, according to the > Federation of American Scientists. The government plans to spend somewhere > between $2 and $6 billion to make tritium. See: > > http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/crs/97-002.htm Okay, and we're recovering the tritium from decommissioned bombs. With tritium = 3.01550 g/mol and McKubre's effort was 8 orders of magnitude shy of a mole I suppose it's a fantasy to think that LENR could be used to shut down SRP, eh? Is tritium diatomic? Regards, Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 17:14:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA03495; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:14:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:14:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3B958C86.45C2 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:23:03 -0700 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Podkletnov Q&A session (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E9YTD3.0.Qs.7vMbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > See below. This is from http://users.telemail.it/gmodanese/forum.htm Doesn't #14 remind you of Project Montauk? ;-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 18:46:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07222; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:45:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:45:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3B9575EB.4F8282B1 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 18:47:41 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Scientist: Cold Fusion Experiment Produces Mysterious Results References: <3B950AAD.9FFE76B6 ix.netcom.com> <3B95067B.9C4BF02E@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010904150430.00aa2168@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010904165158.02b297f8@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HdAb42.0.mm1.YEObx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:54:46 -0400: > > >I wrote: > > > >>>Not mentioned is the fact that most of the He4 was pumped out by > >>>mistake when the sample was analyzed by Clarke. > >> > >>Wasn't it pumped out earlier, at PNL? Otherwise, how would they know it > >>was 10E15 atoms . . . > > > >Ah, wait. I think I see. They took a sample of gas at PNL and sent the > >whole thing to McMaster where the rest leaked out by accident. > > How exactly does one go about losing the He4 while retaining the He3 and > T? The He4 is mainly in the gas while the He3 and T are mainly in the solid material. As a result, the He4 leaves more quickly when the D2 gas is released. > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 20:11:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA11897; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:09:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:09:27 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, FZNIDARSIC@aol.com Subject: Re: Question for Frank on Podkletnov experiment Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:18:16 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <122.405097b.28c56866 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <122.405097b.28c56866 aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01090423181600.07941 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA11864 Resent-Message-ID: <"hXcsG1.0.pv2.dTPbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Monday 03 September 2001 16:12, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/1/01 4:33:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes: > > > > > > 2) Beam appear does NOT attenuate by distance. For NON DIVERGING beams of > > any kind carrying energy it is logical to accept this, but for a field > > carrying gravitational > > force, this would be hardly possible. According your theory an induced > > gravitation > > force should attenuate with 1/r. Do you have some suggestions? > > > > hamdi > > .......................... > > I have no suggestions. Momentun is always conserved. The experiment must > > be worng. > > .................................... > > Beam appear does NOT attenuate by distance. > > > > This cannot be. Such a beam would effect the potential energy 1/2 of the > > universe. > > No way could this amount of energy be put in by the expermeintal apparatus. > > Hmmmm, Maybe a potential for intersteller communication using gravitational waves of speed (1 x 10^10)(c) Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 20:37:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA22503; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:34:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:34:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3B959D6A.47576A75 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 20:35:06 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. References: <999481534.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gg87W1.0.XV5.VrPbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sept 4, 2001 slajoie u.washington.edu wrote back on Sept. 2, 2001: > Ira Flatow starts out with a rather offensive defensive statement > where he admits that he does not report on cold fusion experiments. > He claims that they do not pass the test of good science. He then > defines good science not in term of the scientific method, but in > terms of authority. In his world, science is not about experiment, > but about "reputable scientist" and published in "respectable > journals". snip > Basically, the only reason why Ira Flatow let this see the light of > day is because, as I've long expected, someone he considers an > authority told him it was "acceptable". So much for any capacity for > independent > thought. The situation was that Flatow did not know about the Tritium report until Russ George called him and told him about the upcoming publication in Fusion Technology. This was followed by sending him a preprint copy of the article. Also all the numerous contact phone numbers and list of individuals. So much for alert investigative science journalism. Its more like "drop in your lap and spoon feed" journalism to me. > > McKubre duplicated Arata's experiment where a hollowed out Pd cathode > and puts in Pd Powder and welds it shut again. snip > This experiment is not unlike that which I have pointed out before > by Russ George (also of SRI) and by Clator of Los Alamos. Russ George is NOT of SRI except informally and at the loose invitation by McKubre (of New Zealand) to the SRI laboratory. SRI never did hire George for some unknown reason(s). Russ George (an American) lives near Palo Alto in a rented boat, being that the apartment rental is so high there and he values the education opportunities there for his kids.. As I understands it, McKubre et al sponges off the work that Russ George undertakes there, such as the Case replication effort and his obtaining the Arata DS Cathodes for SRI. The cells used for the Case replication work were designed and built by George. That work, started after the ICCF7, started out strictly as his own (with Case's collaboration) in a SRI back room. Soon after the Helium count went beyond background and climbing, he was out, the setup moved into a showcase area and the experiment became McKubre's et al. This is science handled correctly? It was Russ George that also first used the resources of PNL and Brian Clark of Canada. He knew of Clark's work having lived and worked in Canada for some years. Russ George visited Arata twice in Japan in his own drive to learn more of Arata's results. He got some of Arata's used samples and had them tested by Clark way before this tritium report was coming out of the new DS cathode work. And he successfully negotiated the purchase of new DS cathodes for SRI. In turn, Arata learned much about Sonofusion enough for him to do some work and report in that area. How do I know of these things? I lived through the period, but don't take my word on these things, ask him . It should be part of the proper history of cold fusion. Some people may not like it or him for personal reasons but there it is. Russ George also reports that two other reporters were working on the same Tritium story and had called him about it. Perhaps one of them was the one picked up on by Tom Blanton. -AK- When I name Arata, I mean Arata and Zhang in most instances. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 22:16:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA26893; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 22:15:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 22:15:37 -0700 From: ConexTom aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 01:14:18 EDT Subject: A Future of Natural Intelligence: What to centralize ?, What to decentralize? To: DEACH topica.com, prj@mail.msen.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, svpvril yahoogroups.com CC: tom rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_c9.14f4eb00.28c70eaa_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 Resent-Message-ID: <"9ZT3p3.0.0a6.vJRbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_c9.14f4eb00.28c70eaa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Future of Natural Intelligence: What to centralize ?, What to decentralize? I am writing this email to explain a list that I am making of all of the natural and artificial structures in nature, that need to be centralized, and decentralized to guarantee a future for Earth , which is free, and predominantly based on natural intelligence, and perhaps merely augmented by artificial intelligence. It seems that most of the structures of nature, and man made structures or artifice, need to be decentralized to create maximum freedom, happiness, and ensure or encourage natural processes in life, while only a few need to be centralized. Typical structures in nature and in the man made world which I believe should be decentralized to maximize freedom and nature are perhaps, commerce, most of the industries, food production, basic resources, energy, education, power and social structures, media, privacy, health, cultures, traditions & wealth. Some structures which I believe need to be centralized are some critical artificial technologies such as nuclear technologies, some weapons technologies, some chemical technologies, and some biological technologies which are dangerous if not dealt with responsibly. Also some industries may oscillate from highly centralized to highly decentralized from time to time such as computer technologies; and this oscillation depends on the need of the day or age.. Centralization would be great for power structures, if all of the centralized leaders where truly ethical, and truly cared about everyone equally, but since this is not often the case in our world to date, it seems that decentralization of power structures is a safer bet. Some things need to be decentralized to guarantee an interesting and randomized world, which makes life worth living. There needs to be decentralized money, and shops, and jobs which each person may choose from, to make an interesting world. If such resources as money, and shops, and jobs were dictated by a centralized control, then all the shops may be the same, generic, and very boring; and all of the jobs would be dictated and delegated to each person, and many people would be perhaps uninterested in their jobs. Also I would like to question to what degree should things be centralized or decentralized. There may be local centralization for some things, and global centralization for other things. Local power structures could be centralized at the town level, and decentralized at the global or state, national, or international levels. Also one may question which natural structures should be in charge of the centralized structures. The masses are often irresponsible, and often do not concern themselves with welfare of others or even their own future. At the same time, there are some groups of individuals that prefer to minimize freedom, and happiness for all, and obviously these groups should not be in control of to many centralized structures in nature and in artifice. Also some structures whether centralized or decentralized, need to be managed in the long and in the short run by different proportions of management structures. Some long term management of certain resources, historical trends, & ethical traditions may need to be dealt with by power structures which are concerned with the well being all over a long period of time, rather than in the short run. Many individuals, and power structures are concerned with the present, and only the near future, and not so concerned with the past and far future. If anyone has any recommendations to add to this list, that I may have missed, please send me, and email, so that I may update the list; and consequently, I may encourage centralization and decentralization where it need be, to guarantee a free, happy, and natural future for Earth. Respectfully, Thomas Clark www.rhfweb.com tom rhfweb.com --part1_c9.14f4eb00.28c70eaa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Future of Natural Intelligence: What to centralize ?, What to
decentralize?

I am writing this email to explain a list that I am making of all of
the natural and artificial structures in nature, that need to be
centralized, and decentralized to guarantee a future for Earth ,
which is free, and predominantly based on natural intelligence,
and perhaps merely augmented by artificial intelligence. It seems
that most of the structures of nature, and man made structures
or artifice,  need to be decentralized to create maximum
freedom, happiness, and ensure or encourage natural processes
in life, while only a few need to be centralized.  Typical
structures in nature and in the man made world which I believe
should be decentralized to maximize freedom and nature are
perhaps, commerce, most of the industries, food production,
basic resources, energy, education, power and social structures,
media, privacy, health, cultures, traditions & wealth.  Some
structures which I believe need to be centralized are some
critical artificial technologies such as nuclear technologies,
some weapons technologies, some chemical technologies, and
some biological technologies which are dangerous if not dealt
with responsibly. Also some industries may oscillate from highly
centralized to highly decentralized from time to time such as
computer technologies; and this oscillation depends on the need
of the day or age..  Centralization would be great for power
structures, if all of the centralized leaders where truly ethical,
and truly cared about everyone equally, but since this is not
often the case in our world to date, it seems that
decentralization of power structures is a safer bet.   Some things
need to be decentralized to guarantee an interesting and
randomized world, which makes life worth living.  There needs
to be decentralized money, and shops, and jobs which each
person may choose from, to make an interesting world.  If such
resources as money, and shops, and jobs were dictated by a
centralized control, then all the shops may be the same, generic,
and very boring; and all of the jobs would be dictated and
delegated to each person, and many people would be perhaps
uninterested in their jobs.  Also I would like to question to what
degree should things be centralized or decentralized. There may
be local centralization for some things, and global centralization
for other things.  Local power structures could be centralized at
the town level, and decentralized at the global or state, national,
or international levels.  Also one may question which natural
structures should be in charge of the centralized structures. The
masses are often irresponsible, and often do not concern
themselves with welfare of others or even their own future. At
the same time, there are some groups of individuals that prefer
to minimize freedom, and happiness for all, and obviously these
groups should not be in control of to many centralized
structures in nature and in artifice. Also some structures
whether centralized or decentralized, need to be managed in the
long and in the short run by different proportions of
management structures.  Some long term management of
certain resources, historical trends, & ethical traditions  may
need to be dealt with by power structures which are concerned
with the well being all over a long period of time, rather than in
the short run. Many individuals, and power structures are
concerned with the present, and only the near future, and not so
concerned with the past and far future.

If anyone has any recommendations to add to this list, that I
may have missed, please send me, and email, so that I may
update the list; and consequently, I may encourage
centralization and decentralization where it need be, to
guarantee a free, happy, and natural future for Earth.


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
www.rhfweb.com
tom rhfweb.com --part1_c9.14f4eb00.28c70eaa_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 23:20:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA14816; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:19:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:19:54 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Scientist: Cold Fusion Experiment Produces Mysterious Results Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:19:27 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3B950AAD.9FFE76B6 ix.netcom.com> <3B95067B.9C4BF02E@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010904150430.00aa2168@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010904165158.02b297f8@pop.mindspring.com> <3B9575EB.4F8282B1@i x.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <3B9575EB.4F8282B1 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA14795 Resent-Message-ID: <"6i2Dw.0.Qd3.9GSbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 04 Sep 2001 18:47:41 -0600: [snip] >> How exactly does one go about losing the He4 while retaining the He3 and >> T? > >The He4 is mainly in the gas while the He3 and T are mainly in the solid >material. As a result, the He4 leaves more quickly when the D2 gas is >released. [snip] Thanks. I wonder if they heated the Pd black to see if it still contained any He4? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 4 23:24:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA16849; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:24:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 23:24:01 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tritium needed for nuclear weapons Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:23:35 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010904170005.02b40368 pop.mindspring.com> <3B954B76.CF679C9D@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010904180132.00aa2168@pop.mindspring.com> <3B958BCC.3BF6@bellsouth.net> In-Reply-To: <3B958BCC.3BF6 bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA16817 Resent-Message-ID: <"W1dYB3.0.474.1KSbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:19:56 -0700: [snip] >Okay, and we're recovering the tritium from decommissioned bombs. [snip] Actually, I'm surprised that they need T in bombs at all. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 01:05:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA05464; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:43:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:43:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3B95D752.635022DB verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:42:10 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Question for Frank on Podkletnov experiment References: <122.405097b.28c56866 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D9YoM3.0.IL1.WUTbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Frank, I agree with you that there is no way the beam carry momentum under these circumstances. However these difficulties could be overcome if the effect of the beam is indirect, which alter gravitational interactions on its path. I mean the interaction of the objects with the ambient gravitational field is altered by the beam. This can be by, for example, if the beam introduce a gravitational polarization into dynamic of the matter. Now we can combine this hypothesis with your theory plus with an other idea (although it may not be mandatory) that I deduct from the Newton law of gravitation which is simply "saying that gravitational fields interact to each others" rather than saying " gravitational field interact on a object". I think this idea is fit well to your theory. This provide a limitation for gravitational interactions, requiring that only things which induce gravitation forces are subjected to gravitation. I dont know is thi s idea fit the observation, which appears incompatible with GR, anyway it may be worth to test it. So far the beam should disturb the homogen distribution of gravitational induction of the matter, just like an electric field align liquid crystals, creating a net gravitational force on the direction of the beam path. According this model, Acceleration o f subjected objects caused by themselves, by the anisotropy of their own induced gravity. Fortunately these extra gravitational forces should attenuate with 1/rr or 1/r at least, before open a hole in the universe. On the other hand the original beam may not goes forever but may exhibit a weak attenuation which may had not observed due to the short distance or saturation effects. Anyway, if no attenuation is observed for an 150 meters, it is quite possible it is effective for several miles or more. But still there are problems. Why the beam is not diverging? Non diverging characteristics suggest it is also in gravitational nature according Frank's theory. But other observations does not allow it is a pure gravitational force field, but it should som ething more complex. The "backyard" radiation (described on Q&A) exhibiting Hutchison effect imply the phenomenon is rather a complex one which affecting atomic/electronic property of the matter. Regards, hamdi ucar FZNIDARSIC aol.com writes: In a message dated 9/1/01 4:33:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes: 2) Beam appear does NOT attenuate by distance. For NON DIVERGING beams of any kind carrying energy it is logical to accept this, but for a field carrying gravitational force, this would be hardly possible. According your theory an induced gravitation force should attenuate with 1/r. Do you have some suggestions? hamdi .......................... I have no suggestions. Momentum is always conserved. The experiment must be wrong. .................................... Beam appear does NOT attenuate by distance. This cannot be. Such a beam would effect the potential energy 1/2 of the universe. No way could this amount of energy be put in by the experimental apparatus. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 03:46:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA06833; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 03:42:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 03:42:44 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:42:44 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Podkletnov Q&A session (fwd) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"38bnn.0.hg1.a6Wbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith - > The fact that the beam penetrates walls etc but > interacts with the pendulum is frnakly unbelievable. Aside from the whole thing being unbelievable, why does that specific claim bother you? Gravity goes through floors and affects pendulums on a normal day. If it's what they say, that part seems to make sense, to me at least. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 06:08:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA10290; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:07:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:07:20 -0700 From: Hypercom59 aol.com Message-ID: <148.10e99bf.28c77d68 aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:06:48 EDT Subject: Re: New Scientist: Cold Fusion Experiment Produces Mysterious Results To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Resent-Message-ID: <"WJh2z3.0.hW2.7EYbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 9/5/01 1:46:56 AM Central Daylight Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes: You can heat Pd and Pt white hot and it doesn't get black (oxidize). That's why it works so great in my device. It does not require flux either and when melted into a ball -- it cools oxidation free to a bright silvery surface. BTW, I am a Jeweler / Goldsmith and I work with Platinum & Palladium as well. Best Regards, C From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 06:22:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA15376; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:22:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:22:01 -0700 From: Hypercom59 aol.com Message-ID: <16d.5951bf.28c780dc aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:21:32 EDT Subject: Re: New Scientist: Cold Fusion Experiment Produces Mysterious Results To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Resent-Message-ID: <"_l-1h3.0.6m3.vRYbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 9/5/01 1:46:56 AM Central Daylight Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes: >I wonder if they heated the Pd black, You can heat Pd and Pt white hot and it doesn't get black (oxidize). That's why it works so great in my device. It does not require flux either and when melted into a ball -- it cools oxidation free to a bright silvery surface. BTW, I am a Jeweler / Goldsmith and I work with Platinum & Palladium as well. Best Regards, C From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 07:19:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA24151; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:39:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:39:06 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 06:39:06 -0800 Message-Id: <999697146.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> To: , Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ONu_F2.0.Gv5.vhYbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------Included Message---------- > Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 08:28:42 +1000 > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > Reply-To: > To: > Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. > > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 04 Sep 2001 08:47:08 -0600: > [snip] > I would point out that Mills has long claimed that Deuterinos undergoing > "CAF" (Coulombic Annihilation Fusion) as he labels it, produce primarily > tritium, because the protons try to keep as far away from one another > during the reaction as possible. > > IOW the tritium could be the result of fusion resulting from Deuterino > formation. Excess heat not explained by the nuclear products would also > be expected in this case, resulting from the formation of deuterinos > that haven't yet fused. Mills is that guy with "Blacklight Power", Hydrinos, and the theory of fractional quantum numbers, right? If you could explain that to me, I'd love to hear it because his theory sounds like gobbly-gook to me the way he explains it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 08:24:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15387; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 07:57:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 07:57:04 -0700 Message-ID: <004901c13633$ebf63de0$b55bccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Arata Cathodes and tritium Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:53:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"tym_b1.0.Lm3.0rZbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, In the discussion of how much tritium was made by Arata cathodes, remember that the cathode capsule is about the size of your thumb and contains a few grams of palladium nanopowder. What should be of interest is atoms of tritium per gram of Pd nanopowder, and compare that to atoms of tritium per kilogram of reactor core. I doubt that number is published, however. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 09:13:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26540; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:33:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:33:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3B963808.78D3BFA4 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 08:34:56 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Scientist: Cold Fusion Experiment Produces Mysterious Results References: <3B950AAD.9FFE76B6 ix.netcom.com> <3B95067B.9C4BF02E@bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010904150430.00aa2168@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010904165158.02b297f8@pop.mindspring.com> <3B9575EB.4F8282B1@i x.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VlI6N2.0.cU6.6Nabx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 04 Sep 2001 18:47:41 -0600: > [snip] > >> How exactly does one go about losing the He4 while retaining the He3 and > >> T? > > > >The He4 is mainly in the gas while the He3 and T are mainly in the solid > >material. As a result, the He4 leaves more quickly when the D2 gas is > >released. > [snip] > Thanks. I wonder if they heated the Pd black to see if it still > contained any He4? As far as I know, they did not heat the Pd. This would have been a good thing to do. > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 10:42:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28593; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B965593.5607A97F ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:41:12 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Arata Cathodes and tritium References: <004901c13633$ebf63de0$b55bccd1 asus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cPi0H3.0.Y-6.HDcbx" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That is a good point, Mike. In addition, only a small fraction of the Pd powder within the cell is active. If these factors are taken into account, I would expect this to be a very efficient way to make tritium, provided the process can be duplicated. However, tritium formation is much more rare than He4 production and even more poorly understood. As for being a source of bomb-grade tritium, several other methods work very well. For example, the Canadians and the French are making tritium by the pound in their heavy-water cooled reactors. The would does not lack tritium and, indeed, may have a problem getting rid of what is made. Ed Mike Carrell wrote: > Vorts, > > In the discussion of how much tritium was made by Arata cathodes, remember > that the cathode capsule is about the size of your thumb and contains a few > grams of palladium nanopowder. What should be of interest is atoms of > tritium per gram of Pd nanopowder, and compare that to atoms of tritium per > kilogram of reactor core. I doubt that number is published, however. > > Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 11:06:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA19842; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:04:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:04:41 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010905140036.02b07168 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:04:42 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. In-Reply-To: <3B959D6A.47576A75 ix.netcom.com> References: <999481534.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"7NrRl3.0.yr4.vacbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki wrote: >As I understands it, McKubre et al sponges off the work that Russ George >undertakes there, such as the Case replication effort and his obtaining >the Arata DS Cathodes for SRI. That is an exaggeration. When Case first went public at an ICCF conference, McKubre was very impressed and voted Case "Best in Conference." He understood how impressive this was, without help from Russ George. I suspect Russ exaggerates his own contributions. That is what McKubre says, in a very diplomatic tone. But I have never been to SRI, I was not there when the research was conducted, so I cannot judge who did what, or who deserves the credit. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 11:51:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA09502; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:50:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:50:31 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:50:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Re: Arata Cathodes and tritium In-Reply-To: <3b965593.5607a97f ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"KgCGB.0.JK2.sFdbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Edmund Storms wrote: > That is a good point, Mike. In addition, only a small fraction of the Pd > powder within the cell is active. How do we know that only a small fraction of the Pd powder within the cell is active? If so, it should be possible to get the same results with less powder. Do they check the Pd for transmutation, sampling different areas? Where is the Pd most active? Near it's center, or where the powder meets the inner cathod wall? > If these factors are taken into account, I > would expect this to be a very efficient way to make tritium, provided the > process can be duplicated. However, tritium formation is much more rare than > He4 production and even more poorly understood. As for being a source of > bomb-grade tritium, several other methods work very well. For example, the > Canadians and the French are making tritium by the pound in their heavy-water > cooled reactors. The would does not lack tritium and, indeed, may have a > problem getting rid of what is made. I see tritium production as a drawback. I don't want to make bombs, I want cheap power. It is interesting that the reaction takes place (mostly?) in the powder and not the cathode itself. I wonder if that is due to the interior cavity being at a uniform D2 pressure while the cathode isn't, or if it is as you've said before Dr. Storm, a surface effect. It can't be that the powder is loading faster as the deuterium has to pass through the cathode wall first. I wonder if there is a region of the cathode that shows more evidence of fusion than other regions; transmutations, 4He, 3He and tritium ash, heat, and so forth. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 11:53:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10244; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:52:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:52:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3B967461.9E809045 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 11:52:17 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: Nature Contents: 6 September 2001 Volume 413 No. 6851 pp. 1 - 92] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6Wagx1.0.ZV2.RHdbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Nature Contents: 6 September 2001 Volume 413 No. 6851 pp. 1 - 92 Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:30:00 -0400 From: Nature Reply-To: Customer Service To: Nature Nature - Table of Contents Now available at http://www.nature.com/nature/ Visit Nature online to browse the content of the current issue, including articles, letters to Nature, brief communications and web extras. Please note that you need to be a subscriber to enjoy full text access to Nature online. To purchase a subscription, please visit http://www.nature.com/nature/subscribe/ Nature Contents: 06 September 2001 Volume 413 No. 6851 (c)Copyright 2001 Macmillan Publishers Ltd ===================================================================== This alert is supported by R&D Systems. R&D Systems’ Quantikine mRNA kit now has a Cell Lysis Buffer that eliminates RNA isolation prior to mRNA quantitation. Simply lyse cells to prepare samples for use in the assay. Because RNA does not have to be isolated, sample quantitation is very accurate and results can be obtained in less than 5 hours, making high sample throughput a reachable goal. http://www.RnDSystems.com/ ===================================================================== Naturejobs.com launches September 6th. Leading-edge tools, editorial, resources and naturally top global job postings in one site. Register your resume/CV so employers hunt for YOU. Plus our powerful Job Alerts can send you vacancies directly by e-mail. And if you're not seeking a new position you'll also find the site a valuable resource. http://www.naturejobs.com/ Naturejobs - making science work ===================================================================== ===================================================================== The content listing below carries links to abstracts ===================================================================== --------------------- articles --------------------- Prokaryotic origin of the actin cytoskeleton F VAN DEN ENT, L A AMOS & J LÖWE http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413039a0_fs.html --------------------- letters to Nature --------------------- Rapid X-ray flaring from the direction of the supermassive black hole at the Galactic Centre F K BAGANOFF, M W BAUTZ, W N BRANDT, G CHARTAS, E D FEIGELSON, G P GARMIRE, Y MAEDA, M MORRIS, G R RICKER, L K TOWNSLEY & F WALTER http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413045a0_fs.html How `spin ice' freezes J SNYDER, J S SLUSKY, R J CAVA & P SCHIFFER http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413048a0_fs.html Fluidity of water confined to subnanometre films U RAVIV, P LAURAT & J KLEIN http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413051a0_fs.html Anomalous properties in ferroelectrics induced by atomic ordering A M GEORGE, J ÍÑIGUEZ & L BELLAICHE http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413054a0_fs.html Elasticity of iron at the temperature of the Earth's inner core G STEINLE-NEUMANN, L STIXRUDE, R E COHEN & O GÜLSEREN http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413057a0_fs.html Texturing of the Earth's inner core by Maxwell stresses B A BUFFETT & H-R WENK http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413060a0_fs.html Human presence in the European Arctic nearly 40,000 years ago P PAVLOV, J I SVENDSEN & S INDRELID http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413064a0_fs.html A cellular mechanism of reward-related learning J N J REYNOLDS, B I HYLAND & J R WICKENS http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413067a0_fs.html Mobilization of a Drosophila transposon in the Caenorhabditis elegans germ line J-L BESSEREAU, A WRIGHT, D C WILLIAMS, K SCHUSKE, M W DAVIS & E M JORGENSEN http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413070a0_fs.html Role of thrombin signalling in platelets in haemostasis and thrombosis G R SAMBRANO, E J WEISS, Y-W ZHENG, W HUANG & S R COUGHLIN http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413074a0_fs.html Mal (MyD88-adapter-like) is required for Toll-like receptor-4 signal transduction K A FITZGERALD, E M PALSSON-MCDERMOTT, A G BOWIE, C A JEFFERIES, A S MANSELL, G BRADY, E BRINT, A DUNNE, P GRAY, M T HARTE, D MCMURRAY, D E SMITH, J E SIMS, T A BIRD & L A J O'NEILL http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413078a0_fs.html Loss of p16Ink4a confers susceptibility to metastatic melanoma in mice P KRIMPENFORT, K C QUON, W J MOOI, A LOONSTRA & A BERNS http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413083a0_fs.html Loss of p16Ink4a with retention of p19Arf predisposes mice to tumorigenesis N E SHARPLESS, N BARDEESY, K-H LEE, D CARRASCO, D H CASTRILLON, A J AGUIRRE, E A WU, J W HORNER & R A DEPINHO http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413086a0_fs.html --------------------- brief communications --------------------- Language rhythms in baby hand movements LAURA ANN PETITTO, SIOBHAN HOLOWKA, LAUREN E. SERGIO & DAVID OSTRY Hearing babies born to deaf parents babble silently with their hands. http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413035a0_fs.html Spectrographic imaging: A bird's-eye view of the health of coral reefs P J MUMBY, J R M CHISHOLM, C D CLARK, J D HEDLEY & J JAUBERT http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413036a0_fs.html Immune recognition: A new receptor for beta-glucans G D BROWN & S GORDON http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413036b0_fs.html Evolutionary genetics: Clonal inheritance of avian mitochondrial DNA S BERLIN & H ELLEGREN http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6851/abs/413037a0_fs.html ===================================================================== The content listing below is accessible only through a subscription. To purchase a subscription, please visit: http://www.nature.com/nature/subscribe/ ===================================================================== --------------------- opinion --------------------- The future of the electronic scientific literature --------------------- news --------------------- Fears for basic science as Bush backs use of investment criteria Stanford gift scaled back over federal stem-cell policy Y-chromosome analysis urged for sex crimes Journal boycott presses demand for free access Environmental laws face military manoeuvres Listing resumes for species at risk Japan plans revision of science lessons Ministry attempts to breathe life into clinical trials Liver tumours temper hopes for gene-therapy technique Celera and Motorola brought in to aid hunt for disease genes news in brief --------------------- news feature --------------------- Biology's last taboo --------------------- correspondence --------------------- Brazil has the talent: just let us get on with the job S P RIBEIRO, M D S MENDONÇA-JÚNIOR, E M BARBOSA & J A D S NETO Group did give timely foot-and-mouth analysis R M ANDERSON, N M FERGUSON & C A DONNELLY To boldly go where no plant has yet been found C LEE VAN DOVER --------------------- book reviews --------------------- The ultimate means of destruction: S CROFT reviews Britain and the H-Bomb by Lorna Arnold Fossilized art Counting on the metaphorical: G A GOLDIN reviews Where Mathematics Comes From: How the Embodied Mind Brings Mathematics into Being by George Lakoff & Rafael E. Núñez Sticking by our one and only?: T R BIRKHEAD reviews The Myth of Monogamy: Fidelity and Infidelity in Animals and People by David P. Barash & Judith Eve Lipton --------------------- news and views --------------------- X-rays from the edge of infinity F MELIA Cardiovascular biology: Platelets and proteases S BRASS Earth science: Core beliefs A JEPHCOAT & K REFSON Cytoskeleton: Evolution in bacteria H P ERICKSON Supramolecular chemistry: Going for gold H SCHMIDBAUR Archaeology: Out in the cold J A J GOWLETT Daedalus: Pay for the Internet D JONES 100 and 50 years ago ===================================================================== Links to freely available content on www.nature.com ===================================================================== -------------------------------- feature of the week -------------------------------- Twisted genes control cancer http://www.nature.com/nature/fow/ --------------------------------- nature science update --------------------------------- This week's Nature Science Update http://www.nature.com/nsu includes: Unexpected reaction to Euro Big Euro coins could cause itchy fingers. http://www.nature.com/nsu/010906/010906-9.html Is that study really necessary? Economics helps decide if we should put our money where researchers' mouths are. http://www.nature.com/nsu/010906/010906-3.html Appellation mission controllée Space agency helps wine growers blend a better bottle. http://www.nature.com/nsu/010906/010906-4.html For more news like this visit Nature Science Update, the NPG's free popular science daily webzine, every day: http://www.nature.com/nsu --------------------------------- jobs and careers --------------------------------- Looking for a new job? Beat the waiting game by visiting new naturejobs: the online career centre for science professionals worldwide. Search hundreds of top international science jobs and choose the type of service you would like to use, all for free. To get a head start in your new career today, click: http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/ Plus: Jobs at Nature Future Focus and Recruitment Issues Meetings & Courses ===================================================================== Nature Immunology Special Focus on Autoimmunity Nature Immunology is proud to publish a 'Focus on Autoimmunity'. The focus, which is featured in the September issue, includes a special collection of Reviews, Commentaries, and News & Views articles that highlight recent research in the field of autoimmunity. The online version additionally has exclusive features, such as a collection of links to selected classic autoimmunity papers, free-access links to autoimmunity papers published by the Nature Publishing Group, and Autoimmunity Round-ups of late breaking stories in the field that will be updated monthly. For a limited time Nature Immunology is making access to ALL of this information FREE ONLINE, so please visit us today at: http://www.nature.com/ni/special_focus/autoimmunity ===================================================================== As a registered user of the Nature Publishing Group of web sites, you were selected to receive this message in the genuine belief that it would be of interest to you. If you no longer wish to receive news and announcements from the Nature Publishing Group please update your online account details at: http://www.nature.com/registration/Modify_registration.taf (You will need to log in to be recognised as a Nature registrant) To discontinue all email services from the Nature Publishing Group click on the link below: http://www.nature.com/marketing/unsubscribe/ For further technical assistance, please contact: mailto:registration nature.com For print subscription enquiries, please contact: mailto:subscriptions nature.com For other enquiries, please contact: mailto:feedback nature.com Nature's worldwide offices: London . Madrid . Paris . Munich . Moscow . New Delhi . Tokyo Melbourne . San Francisco . Washington . New York From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 12:10:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA16603; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:08:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:08:13 -0700 Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:03:32 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <003101c1363d$75b3b0e0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <999611446.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> <3B94E964.8FEAA7D2 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"yvRMZ1.0.C34.RWdbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > I would point out that Mills has long claimed that Deuterinos undergoing > "CAF" (Coulombic Annihilation Fusion) produce primarily tritium If Mills is correct in this, then what comes to mind, perhaps, is an easy to perform experiment that could demonstrate - or at least offer some further evidence towards both the reality of the deuterino itself and also of secondary tritium, i.e.the subsequent conversion of deuterinos to tritium via CAF. Since Arata has not optimized for deuterinos (are they accidental?) then doing so from the outset could possibly offer big returns in efficiency (assuming, of course, that the Mills explanation, when applied to the Arata experiment, is correct). The following "thinking-out-loud" follow-on experiment would be gas phase and, in its simplest form, need not involve either calorimtery or spectroscopy. Mills offers - as one proof of hydrino formation, a characteristic EUV spectra that is predicted from his theory, but accurate spectroscopy at these extremely small wavelengths is difficult and expensive to perform. But if one maximizes the deuterinos first, ala Mills, and then the deuterinos secondarily fuse into tritium, ala Arata - all from the same sealed vessel: then a simplified demonstration of LENR could be as simple as just waiting for an extended period before attaching a voltmeter to an electrically insulated reactor and then testing for the charge build-up that would invariably result from tritium decay. Mills gets his best results for hydrinos using a 95/5 mix of argon gas and hydrogen (at a few tens of millitorr) with a strontium metal catalyst which vaporizes from process heat. Only modest voltage is required. He continually adds hydrogen once the reaction is underway and that would also be a desirable feature of any experiment in which deuterium is substituted, because the initial reactant inventory is so low. But that step also makes the experiment more expensive and also subject to "after the fact" interpretation (tritium contamination). If an initially-charged and sealed reactor is feasible - .i.e. if a large enough reactor is used then it might be possible to eliminate continuous fueling. The voltage signature from tritium decay is obvious, but then again-carefully insulating a large vessel over extended time may not be so easy. Consider this however: the electrostatic charge buildup that we would be looking for in tritium decay is similar to that inside a TV picture tube after it is turned off - and there is plenty of evidence that TV tubes can retain charge for months. Is that a fair comparison? In order to alter the Mills set-up for the purpose of creating and then testing for tritium, one would need only to substitute deuterium gas for the hydrogen gas and then either add some of the Arata Pd nanopowder directly to the vessel or use Pd wire for the electrode/s (Mills uses tungsten). 3H has a half life of 12.43 years, a specific radioactivity of 28.7 Ci/mmol so even if your reaction vessel was the volume of a TV tube and nearly all the 2H were converted to 3H, even then if would be questionable as to how much charge build up could result over time from tritium decay. On the other hand, the experiment seems easy to set up and "if" (big if) after a month (from an initially grounding) you check the vessel and were showing an electrostatic charge of say 10,000 volts neg., then...Well, at first take, I can think of no other rational explanation other than tritium decay. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 13:34:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12681; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:16:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:16:22 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010905160659.02b4ebc8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:16:18 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Arata Cathodes and tritium In-Reply-To: References: <3b965593.5607a97f ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"uj0FD3.0.363.MWebx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: >I see tritium production as a drawback. I don't want to make bombs, I want >cheap power. In most applications tritium is a drawback. However, in order to control it we must learn how to fine-tune the cells to enhance or block tritium production. Since we must learn how to make it, the government might as well use that ability to maintain nuclear weapons, unless it turns out that conventional methods are cheaper. I would prefer to see them get rid of the nuclear bombs. On the other hand, it may not be wise to dismantle every single one. The knowledge of how to make them will never be lost. If the U.S. and Russia did not have a single bomb, any small state which put one together could threaten other countries with impunity. Terrorists -- or Microsoft -- might get hold of one and take over the world. It is difficult to see how we could stop them even now, with 9,700 missiles. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 13:36:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19258; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:34:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:34:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3B968B93.5B74ABCF ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:31:15 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. References: <999481534.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010905140036.02b07168@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lh--82.0.bi4.Inebx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: September 5, 2001 Jed Rothwell wrote: > >As I understands it, McKubre et al sponges off the work that Russ George > >undertakes there, such as the Case replication effort and his obtaining > >the Arata DS Cathodes for SRI. > > That is an exaggeration. When Case first went public at an ICCF conference, > McKubre was very impressed and voted Case "Best in Conference." He > understood how impressive this was, without help from Russ George. The only "Best in Conference" vote that I can recall is the one that Jaeger of Eneco (sponsor) conducted on the entertainment night 'cruise' boat where the attendees were asked to vote on a list of five minute poster introductions where we would like to have an extended presentation. I and my wife was on board together with Case most of the trip. We talked about his wine and winery interests, plans, and dreams. We voted "Best in Conference" for Case and told him so. I voted for him almost with 'tongue in cheek'. I was delighted that he made it with other poster presenters. And I have video archived both. Eugene His presentation was simple, direct, and to the point. It was almost too plain to have impressed academicians or researchers yet the message was clear. I certainly did not see a crowd of very impressed people crowding him or talking to him intensively. I did catch McKubre talking with Case almost casually in a coffee break. He was practically alone at the poster session where he sat by his poster. In fact Case seemed to appear out of nowhere at the Conference. He certainly seemed to be alone. In a early breakfast buffet prior to the start of the conference, Case came and sat at my table where I was eating by myself. The conversation came around to why he was there. Since I knew of Eugene Mallove and Jed Rothwell's multifaceted efforts in propagating cold fusion, I pointed to the table where they were sitting and recommended that he get to know them for more directions for his work. > I suspect Russ exaggerates his own contributions. That is what McKubre > says, in a very diplomatic tone. But I have never been to SRI, I was not > there when the research was conducted, so I cannot judge who did what, or > who deserves the credit. But isn't using the words 'exaggerated', 'very impressed', ' without help', and the item who McKubre voted for, being judgmental while claiming not being judgmental? I believe Russ George derserve more credit in his cold fusion efforts than he has been given publicly, almost begrudgingly for one reason or another. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 13:42:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20009; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:36:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:36:26 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <999697146.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> References: <999697146.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:36:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Randell Mill's theories Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"UCTey2.0.Gt4._oebx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > >Mills is that guy with "Blacklight Power", Hydrinos, and the theory >of fractional quantum numbers, right? That's right. see http://www.blacklightpower.com for details > >If you could explain that to me, I'd love to hear it because his >theory sounds like gobbly-gook to me the way he explains it. OTOH, if he can do the amazing things that he claims to do, then someone has to come up with a theory to explain in. If you don't like Mill's theory then come up with your own. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 13:43:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19928; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:36:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:36:16 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com Message-Id: Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:36:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Patrick Bailey (by way of thomas malloy) Subject: FWD: Add to energy bill declassifying energy patents Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"Wf3ci2.0.Ct4._oebx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FWD: Subject: Valone/Vesperman Post to NEN To: "'Patrick Bailey (H)'" X-Rcpt-To: pgb padrak.com Dear Gary, Your email is an answer to a prayer. I'm letting our energy newsletter list know of your courageous suggestion to your Congresswoman. Integrity Research Institute (www.integrityresearch.org) and the Disclosure Project (www.disclosureproject.org) both support your suggestion. I will be happy to cooperate with your three requests and even meet with the Staffperson Guiton at his convenience. As a former Patent Examiner, I can tell you that the number of "secretized" patents in the vault at the Patent Office (Park 5 Bldg.) is closer to 4000 or more. They never receive a patent number and the inventor is rarely, if ever, compensated by the government for use of the invention. I will address your last two requests in the near future. Since you have taken the initiative to start this process, we can help by contacting our Congresspeople and asking them to send letters to Congresswoman Berkley in support. I also suggest that we all should ask our Congresspersons to contact the three committees that are pertinent to this subject: Environment and Public Works headed by James Jeffords; Energy & Natural Resources headed by Jeff Bingaman; and Commerce headed by Ernest Hollings. I look forward to working more closely with you on this most important project for environmental security and future energy. Thank you for taking the initiative. I hopy others who receive this email will also respond with their ideas of support. Sincerely, Tom Valone President Integrity Research Institute www.integrity-research.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Vesperman" To: "Tom Valone" Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 9:58 AM Subject: Add to energy bill declassifying energy patents Tom, Yesterday I attended at the Desert Research Institute (www.dri.edu ) here in Las Vegas a public announcement by local Congresswoman Shelley Berkley. For a local newspaper's report, see http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Aug-16-Thu-2001/business/16785109.html . The occasion is her introduction of a bill to provide $750 million in loan guarantees to be administered by the Small Business Administration. The SBA already provides nationally $11 billion in loan guarantees although the actual cost to federal taxpayers in administrative costs and loan losses is only $100 million. The emphasis of the loans is "to encourage the use of renewable energies by businesses and to spur investments in innovative technologies reducing dependence on fossil fuels, foreign energy sources, and to improve the quality of air. In response to Berkley's request for questions from the audience after her announcement, I explained that the U.S. Patent Office has a nine-member committee which screens patents for national security implications. I also explained that a hidden purpose of this committee is to screen energy-related patents which could threaten the fossil-fuel monopolies, the power grid, etc. When an inventor has his or her energy patent classified, the inventor faces 20 years in prison for working on or publicizing the invention. A Space Energy Journal article by Don Kelly claimed some years ago that there are now 3000 energy patents which have been classified. I asked Berkley to add a section to her bill to establish some kind of mechanism for going back and reviewing all these classified energy patents for possible release and government support for their development. Berkley seemed favorably responsive. I offered to help her write the section and was referred to a staff member. According to his business card, Mark Guiton is Legislative Director. Address is US House of Representatives, 439 Cannon Building, Washington, DC 20515. Phone 202-225-5965; fax 202-225-3119; Mark.Guiton mail.house.gov . I can see several ways you can help me declassify energy patents: First, provide references I can send to Mark that backs up my claims about the 9-member screening committee, 20 years in jail, 3000 classified patents, etc. Second, give me permission to give your name, address, etc. to Mark with a very short bio. I would suggest to Mark to go to you for expert advice concerning the Patent Office and its classified energy patents. Third, describe a mechanism that can be incorporated in the new section of the legislation specifying exactly how the patents are to be reviewed and declassified. One crucial feature is how to pick people for the review committee who are honest and are not consultants for the utilities, oil and gas companies, etc. Thanks for your help! Gary Vesperman [address and telephone, snip] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 14:12:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04422; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:11:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:11:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3B968754.1B7D26F6 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:13:55 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Arata Cathodes and tritium References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lP_A62.0.x41.BKfbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: > On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > That is a good point, Mike. In addition, only a small fraction of the Pd > > powder within the cell is active. > > How do we know that only a small fraction of the Pd powder within > the cell is active? If so, it should be possible to get the same > results with less powder. Do they check the Pd for transmutation, > sampling different areas? Where is the Pd most active? Near it's > center, or where the powder meets the inner cathod wall? The nuclear reaction can only occur where the D concentration is extremely high. Such a high concentration can only occur where the powder contacts the Pd container. In addition, only the smallest particles are active. This are only a fraction of the total. Case uses much less Pd powder, hence can be more efficient. > > > > If these factors are taken into account, I > > would expect this to be a very efficient way to make tritium, provided the > > process can be duplicated. However, tritium formation is much more rare than > > He4 production and even more poorly understood. As for being a source of > > bomb-grade tritium, several other methods work very well. For example, the > > Canadians and the French are making tritium by the pound in their heavy-water > > cooled reactors. The would does not lack tritium and, indeed, may have a > > problem getting rid of what is made. > > I see tritium production as a drawback. I don't want to make bombs, I want > cheap power. > > It is interesting that the reaction takes place (mostly?) in the powder and > not the cathode itself. I wonder if that is due to the interior cavity being at > a uniform D2 pressure while the cathode isn't, or if it is as you've said before Dr. Storm, a surface effect. Fine powder can acquire a higher D concentration for the same applied pressure compared to bulk material. In addition, some of the models suggest a resonance condition is required, something that might be easier to produce in a grain of suitable size. By surface effect, I have always meant that only the near surface region of a cathode can acquire a sufficiently high concentration to be active. For the reaction to occur at all, the active region must consist of many atoms, which can share the resulting nuclear energy. > > > It can't be that the powder is loading faster as the deuterium has to pass > through the cathode wall first. I wonder if there is a region of the cathode > that shows more evidence of fusion than other regions; transmutations, 4He, > 3He and tritium ash, heat, and so forth. According to McKubre, the tritium originated near the cathode wall. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 14:27:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10437; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:27:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:27:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3B96971E.3FB68E53 mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 17:20:30 -0400 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Arata Cathodes and tritium References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xroAC.0.qY2.hYfbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I believe tritium is used as an explosion "enhancer"...when added causes bigger explosion...but nuke will work without.... steve slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: > > On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > That is a good point, Mike. In addition, only a small fraction of the Pd > > powder within the cell is active. > > How do we know that only a small fraction of the Pd powder within > the cell is active? If so, it should be possible to get the same > results with less powder. Do they check the Pd for transmutation, > sampling different areas? Where is the Pd most active? Near it's > center, or where the powder meets the inner cathod wall? > > > If these factors are taken into account, I > > would expect this to be a very efficient way to make tritium, provided the > > process can be duplicated. However, tritium formation is much more rare than > > He4 production and even more poorly understood. As for being a source of > > bomb-grade tritium, several other methods work very well. For example, the > > Canadians and the French are making tritium by the pound in their heavy-water > > cooled reactors. The would does not lack tritium and, indeed, may have a > > problem getting rid of what is made. > > I see tritium production as a drawback. I don't want to make bombs, I want > cheap power. > > It is interesting that the reaction takes place (mostly?) in the powder and > not the cathode itself. I wonder if that is due to the interior cavity being at > a uniform D2 pressure while the cathode isn't, or if it is as you've said before Dr. Storm, a surface effect. > > It can't be that the powder is loading faster as the deuterium has to pass > through the cathode wall first. I wonder if there is a region of the cathode > that shows more evidence of fusion than other regions; transmutations, 4He, > 3He and tritium ash, heat, and so forth. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 15:15:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA30671; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:13:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:13:46 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010905175853.02b4ebc8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 18:13:49 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. In-Reply-To: <3B968B93.5B74ABCF ix.netcom.com> References: <999481534.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010905140036.02b07168 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"qE3sF1.0.9V7.PEgbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki wrote: >The only "Best in Conference" vote that I can recall is the one that >Jaeger of Eneco (sponsor) conducted on the entertainment night 'cruise' >boat where the attendees were asked to vote on a list of five minute >poster introductions where we would like to have an extended presentation. Case was one of those selected. He must have impressed many people, despite his nonchalant attitude, and his audacious claims, and his appearance. (He was best described by Mike Carrell as a "frump.") McKubre praised him in his closing statements, at the end of the conference. To be honest, I did not pay much attention to Case until I heard how impressed McKubre was. > > I suspect Russ exaggerates his own contributions. That is what McKubre > > says, in a very diplomatic tone. But I have never been to SRI, I was not > > there when the research was conducted, so I cannot judge who did what, or > > who deserves the credit. > >But isn't using the words 'exaggerated', 'very impressed', ' without >help', and the item who McKubre voted for, being judgmental while claiming >not being judgmental? McKubre said he was very impressed -- I am merely reporting his words. The "exaggerated" part is judgmental. I have known Russ George for many years, and I have been in some tense, dramatic and depressing situations where I was forced to judge him. In my judgement, he sometimes exaggerates. As I said, I wasn't at SRI, I don't know what happened there. >I believe Russ George derserve more credit in his cold fusion efforts >than he has been given publicly, almost begrudgingly for one reason or >another. I believe he would get more credit if he would learn to restrain himself and not claim more credit than he deserves. He rubs people the wrong way, unfortunately. McKubre has been very generous in publicly crediting George, at places like the APS. Whether he is equally generous in private, or when doling out funding, I would not know. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 15:41:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA08766; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:41:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:41:18 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010905181844.03993ce8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 18:41:04 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Transistors more original, ICs harder to do In-Reply-To: <004a01c135b5$3d63fc00$5256ccd1 asus> References: <999544612.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010904140037.02b459a0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"uMhp-1.0.n82.Degbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >The difference between a transistor >and integrated circuits is so different in impact as to belong in an >entirely different class. It is a qualitative, not a quantitative >difference. I was a young engineer as the transition was happening. > >The first transistors were point contact, very unreliable. Then came >junction transistors, a bit better. But they were always discrete devices, >most of the bulk in packaging and leads. . . . >It was the invention of the **planar** transistor, that could be made by >refined photolithography on a wafer, that was the first big step. The >second was developing capacitors and resistors and connections that could >also be produced by photolithography. These did not come together until >the '60s, and the transistor was invented in the '40s. . . . Perhaps it would be fair to say the transistor required a greater leap of imagination at first, and more new physics, but the integrated circuit took more hard work, and money. Jack Kilby is a gracious and modest man, and we can discount some of his "aw shucks" attitude, but he did say that the IC was inevitable and if he had not come up with it, someone else would have very soon. After he had the idea, it took him only two months to produce the first crude prototype, in August 1958. It took years to bring the first transistors from a concept to a working prototype. TI filed for a patent the following January, after Kilby made some improvements. Regarding planar circuits, Kilby said: "Today, people tend to credit me with having the original idea and made the first circuits. They tend to credit Noyce with having made a major improvement with the use of planar technology, which tremendously expanded the field and contributed to the cost reductions that we're talking about." See: http://www.ti.com/corp/docs/kilbyctr/interview.shtml >The early versions were of such low circuit density, just a few gates, and >were so costly, that commercial manufacturers were not that interested at >the time. Perhaps not, but there was rapid progress, and a sense that the industry was booming. In 1957, just before ICs were invented, transistor production reached 30 million units, and sales topped the $100 million mark. Jack Morton at Bell Labs called this "the threshold of maturity." That shows how hard it is to predict the future! You can buy 42 million transistors in one chip today. Mervin Kelly said, "We are now further along in semiconductor technology after one decade of work than we were in electron tube technology 25 years after de Forest's invention of the audion . . ." (R&H, p. 254) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 16:12:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA21478; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:12:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:12:04 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <120.42da713.28c80b27 aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:11:35 EDT Subject: Re: Question for Frank on Podkletnov experiment To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_120.42da713.28c80b27_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10540 Resent-Message-ID: <"8w9DQ1.0.VF5.35hbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_120.42da713.28c80b27_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/5/01 4:21:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes: > deduct from the Newton law of gravitation which is simply "saying that > gravitational fields interact to each others" rather than saying > "gravitational field interact on a object". Hamdi think of this. The photons from a distant star trave to your eye. They have been traveling side by side for eons. Did they attract each other. No! If they did the light would arrive in lumps. You would see flashes not a start. In gravitational light bending the suns gravity pulls upon a photon. The photon has a momentum E/c. This momentum was altered. Momentum is always conserved. The phonton must have pulled back upon the sun. It appears the photon in this case has gravity. What it the difference. The phonon traveling around has changed it momentum with respect to an external observer. This change in momentum produced the effective gravity associeated with the photon. again gravi field - G(dp/dt)/ccr I have found that this process is universal. Restraining forces (dp/dt) within matter gererate the gravitation field of matter. I hope this helps. Frank Znidarsic --part1_120.42da713.28c80b27_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/5/01 4:21:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:


deduct from the Newton law of gravitation which is simply "saying that
gravitational fields interact to each others" rather than saying
"gravitational field interact on a object".


Hamdi  think of this.  The photons from a distant star trave to your eye.  
They have been traveling side by side for eons.  Did they attract each other.
 No!  If they did the light would arrive in lumps.  You would see flashes not
a start.

In gravitational light bending the suns gravity pulls upon a photon.  The
photon has a momentum E/c.  This momentum was altered.  Momentum is always
conserved.  The phonton must have pulled back upon the sun.  It appears the
photon in this case has gravity.

What it the difference.  The phonon traveling around has changed it momentum
with respect to an external observer.  This change in momentum produced the
effective gravity associeated with the photon.

again

gravi field - G(dp/dt)/ccr

I have found that this process is universal.  Restraining forces (dp/dt)
within matter gererate the gravitation field of matter.

I hope this helps.

Frank Znidarsic --part1_120.42da713.28c80b27_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 16:48:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA01367; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:48:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:48:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:55:54 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: FZNIDARSIC aol.com, Schnurer cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Question for Frank on Podkletnov experiment In-Reply-To: <120.42da713.28c80b27 aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"LbvLJ.0.FL.Gdhbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Frank, I am a little confused ...you may have been typing fast..... (really I am a LOT confused! ....but zecky Joe dooncha know!) Is there a typo here...below? I will flag it..... On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/5/01 4:21:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes: > > > > deduct from the Newton law of gravitation which is simply "saying that > > gravitational fields interact to each others" rather than saying > > "gravitational field interact on a object". > > Hamdi think of this. The photons from a distant star trave to your eye. > They have been traveling side by side for eons. Did they attract each other. > No! If they did the light would arrive in lumps. You would see flashes not > a start. > > In gravitational light bending the suns gravity pulls upon a photon. The > photon has a momentum E/c. This momentum was altered. Momentum is always > conserved. The phonton must have pulled back upon the sun. It appears the > photon in this case has gravity. > --------FLAG------- BELOW: phonon? Photon? Which-what? Please. > What it the difference. The phonon traveling around has changed it momentum > with respect to an external observer. This change in momentum produced the > effective gravity associeated with the photon. > > again > > gravi field - G(dp/dt)/ccr > > I have found that this process is universal. Restraining forces (dp/dt) > within matter gererate the gravitation field of matter. > > I hope this helps. > > Frank Znidarsic > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 16:57:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05715; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:56:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:56:50 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:03:53 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex cc: William Beaty , Jerry Subject: The Barker Process Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Rybzk3.0.2P1._khbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK to post Old experiment Briefly, Replication of Barker Patent Radioactive remediation work. We used a radioactive mineral speciment from a geology laboratory. This was carefully broken and two fragments, about 2 mm roughly spherical that appeared uniform and were radioactive about the same amount and sounded like a really hot and loaded popcorn popper full of cooking popcorn were used. This was, as described by a geologist, a periclase and the mineral was though to be substituted some with radioactive strontium or radium. The Same GM, or Gieger-Muller counter was used for the whole study and this counter is a an inexpensive lab typee counter andis sensitive to beta, gamma and short X ray. The counter was placed inside the Van de Graff abbreviated VDG, sphere with the sample about 1 inch away. The GM counter used a small thin wall 1 inch long by 3/8 inch tube excited at about 850 volts. The belt and rollers were removed from the VDG and it was powered with an external 40 KV bech power supply made by the Glassman company. The Negative HV lead went up the tube which supports the VDG sphere. This lead is connected to the Inside of the sphere. This causes the inside of the sphere to be Zero volts and the outside to be Negative 40 Kilo volts, or 40 KV..... a hole 1/2 in diameter is made in the side of the VDG sphere. The wall of the sphere is less than 0.010 inches.... this makes an intense gradient of Zero volts to Negative 40 KV in less than 0.010 inches. The sample is placed RIGHT NEXT TO THE EDGE OF THE GRADIENT and is held in a thin piece of 2 mil (1/1,000 inch thick) polyethylene plastic film. A little dielectric shelf made of cardboard, paper tape and wood was constructed inside the sphere to support the GM counter and the sample. The low voltage power supply wires for the GM counter go up inside the tube which supports the sphere also. This allows us to turn on the counter at any time and take a reading without ever opening the sphere or disturbing the experiment. The HV wires are silicone elastomer insulated to 60,000 V The Positive 40 KV return lead of the power supply was connected to a 3 inch diameter aluminum sphere on a glass rod about 18 inches long and supported horizontally by a ring stand and positioned about 4 inches away from the hole, directly across from it to further define the field. 1) With the sample in place the GM counter was energized and the typical "popcorn" was heard. Note it is easy to record this with a tape recorder. 2) 40 KV was employed for 14 hours. NOTE: ONE EXPOSURE ONLY was used and no further excitation of HV was used at any time ever again for the rest of the test. 3) Over the course of 11 months the counts were taken and at 11 months the sample was about the same as background counts. At one point one of the witnesses thought the GM counter sounded as though the sample must have been removed....but the whole set up was still sealed and the sample was in place. It worked fine. We know now what to do to make the process work better, but would like to have someone replicate. The problem is that, so far *Everyone* we have contacted either wants to or has CHANGED the set up! On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Orris Dent wrote: > > > > >From: John Schnurer > >To: Orris Dent > >Subject: Re: The Barker Process > >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:34:23 -0400 (EDT) > > > >ny > > > > > > Dear Orris, > > > > > > Before you give the Van De Graff away: > > > ><> > > I will probably get back to you with details tonight, from home. But first > one question for you: Can you please describe an experiment that the > Barker(s) performed that convinced you that their process really worked? > Regards. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 17:06:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09436; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:05:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:05:53 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Podkletnov Q&A session (fwd) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:13:32 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"gKl8K2.0.IJ2.Xthbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ahh, yes, well our old friend C of E comes into play here ( No, not the Church of England dammit, conservation of energy ) In your example, a static case is assumed. What's being demonstrated here is a (claimed) dynamic case. If energy is being imparted to the pendulum, why not the atoms of the wall? And why not a diminished beam energy? Well, it's hard to critique something you know next to nothing about, so we'll see what becomes of the good doctor. I'll have to say, it's the most intrigueing thing I've seen in quite some time. Here's hoping that where there's smoke there's some real fire... K. -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick highsurf.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 6:43 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: Podkletnov Q&A session (fwd) Keith - > The fact that the beam penetrates walls etc but > interacts with the pendulum is frnakly unbelievable. Aside from the whole thing being unbelievable, why does that specific claim bother you? Gravity goes through floors and affects pendulums on a normal day. If it's what they say, that part seems to make sense, to me at least. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 18:57:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA24448; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:57:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:57:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host p37-tnt1.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.218.37] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3B96D651.A559C1E4 ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:50:09 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: How does one join vortex? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9lFgf2.0.lz5.jVjbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've been on vortex so many years I can't find how I subscribed. I am having a discussion with someone, and I was about to suggest they join vortex to learn about the subject, but I can't find how to anywhere. freenrg-l and taoshum-l are easy to find, but no vortex? Help? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 20:45:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA30022; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:45:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:45:07 -0700 From: ConexTom aol.com Message-ID: <14f.864713.28c84b41 aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 23:45:05 EDT Subject: RE: FWD: Energy bill declassifying energy patents To: vortex-l eskimo.com, DEACH@topica.com, prj@mail.msen.com, svpvril yahoogroups.com CC: tom rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_14f.864713.28c84b41_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 Resent-Message-ID: <"6qb3J.0._K7.25lbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_14f.864713.28c84b41_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for the information on the declassification of energy patents Bill by Congresswoman Berkely. I have sent a letter to my Congressman in Michigan to support the Bill and send a letter to Congresswoman Berkely.=20 I have enclosed a copy of the email concerning the bill=20 below. Respectfully, Thomas Clark www.rhfweb.com\personal tom rhfweb.com FWD: Subject: Valone/Vesperman Post to NEN To: "'Patrick Bailey (H)'" X-Rcpt-To: pgb padrak.com Dear Gary, Your email is an answer to a prayer. I'm letting our energy newsletter list know of your courageous suggestion to your Congresswoman. Integrity Research Institute (www.integrityresearch.org) and the Disclosure Project (www.disclosureproject.org) both support your suggestion. =A0 I will be happy to cooperate with your three requests and even meet with the Staffperson Guiton at his convenience. As a former Patent Examiner, I can tell you that the number of "secretized" patents in the vault at the Patent Office (Park 5 Bldg.) is closer to 4000 or more. They never receive a patent number and the inventor is rarely, if ever, compensated by the government for use of the invention. I will address your last two requests in the near future. Since you have taken the initiative to start this process, we can help by contacting our Congresspeople and asking them to send letters to Congresswoman Berkley in support. I also suggest that we all should ask our Congresspersons to contact the three committees that are pertinent to this subject: Environment and Public Works headed by James Jeffords; Energy & Natural Resources headed by Jeff Bingaman; and Commerce headed by Ernest Hollings. I look forward to working more closely with you on this most important project for environmental security and future energy. Thank you for taking the initiative. I hopy others who receive this email will also respond with their ideas of support. Sincerely, Tom Valone President Integrity Research Institute www.integrity-research.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Vesperman" To: "Tom Valone" Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 9:58 AM Subject: Add to energy bill declassifying energy patents Tom, Yesterday I attended at the Desert Research Institute (www.dri.edu ) here in Las Vegas a public announcement by local Congresswoman Shelley Berkley. For a local newspaper's report, see http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Aug-16-Thu-2001/business/16785109.html . The occasion is her introduction of a bill to provide $750 million in loan guarantees to be administered by the Small Business Administration. The SBA already provides nationally $11 billion in loan guarantees although the actual cost to federal taxpayers in administrative costs and loan losses is only $100 million. The emphasis of the loans is "to encourage the use of renewable energies by businesses and to spur investments in innovative technologies reducing dependence on fossil fuels, foreign energy sources, and to improve the quality of air. In response to Berkley's request for questions from the audience after her announcement, I explained that the U.S. Patent Office has a nine-member committee which screens patents for national security implications. I also explained that a hidden purpose of this committee is to screen energy-related patents which could threaten the fossil-fuel monopolies, the power grid, etc. When an inventor has his or her energy patent classified, the inventor faces 20 years in prison for working on or publicizing the invention. A Space Energy Journal article by Don Kelly claimed some years ago that there are now 3000 energy patents which have been classified. I asked Berkley to add a section to her bill to establish some kind of mechanism for going back and reviewing all these classified energy patents for possible release and government support for their development. Berkley seemed favorably responsive. I offered to help her write the section and was referred to a staff member. According to his business card, Mark Guiton is Legislative Director. Address is US House of Representatives, 439 Cannon Building, Washington, DC 20515. Phone 202-225-5965; fax 202-225-3119; Mark.Guiton mail.house.gov=A0 . I can see several ways you can help me declassify energy patents: First, provide references I can send to Mark that backs up my claims about the 9-member screening committee, 20 years in jail, 3000 classified patents, etc. Second, give me permission to give your name, address, etc. to Mark with a very short bio. I would suggest to Mark to go to you for expert advice concerning the Patent Office and its classified energy patents. Third, describe a mechanism that can be incorporated in the new section of the legislation specifying exactly how the patents are to be reviewed and declassified. One crucial feature is how to pick people for the review committee who are honest and are not consultants for the utilities, oil and gas companies, etc. Thanks for your help! Gary Vesperman [address and telephone, snip] --part1_14f.864713.28c84b41_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you for the information on the
declassification of energy patents Bill by
Congresswoman Berkely.  I have sent a letter to my
Congressman in Michigan to support the Bill and
send a letter to Congresswoman Berkely.=20
I have enclosed a copy of the email concerning the bill=20
below.

Respectfully,

Thomas Clark
www.rhfweb.com\personal
tom rhfweb.com

FWD:

Subject: Valone/Vesperman Post to NEN
To: "'Patrick Bailey (H)'" <pgb padrak.com>
X-Rcpt-To: pgb padrak.com

Dear Gary,

Your email is an answer to a prayer. I'm letting our energy newsletter l= ist
know of your courageous suggestion to your Congresswoman. Integrity Rese= arch
Institute (www.integrityresearch.org) and the Disclosure Project
(www.disclosureproject.org) both support your suggestion.

=A0 I will be happy to cooperate with your three requests and even meet=20= with
the Staffperson Guiton at his convenience. As a former Patent Examiner,=20= I
can tell you that the number of "secretized" patents in the vault at the
Patent Office (Park 5 Bldg.) is closer to 4000 or more. They never recei= ve a
patent number and the inventor is rarely, if ever, compensated by the
government for use of the invention. I will address your last two reques= ts
in the near future.

Since you have taken the initiative to start this process, we can help b= y
contacting our Congresspeople and asking them to send letters to
Congresswoman Berkley in support. I also suggest that we all should ask=20= our
Congresspersons to contact the three committees that are pertinent to th= is
subject: Environment and Public Works headed by James Jeffords; Energy &= amp;
Natural Resources headed by Jeff Bingaman; and Commerce headed by Ernest
Hollings.

I look forward to working more closely with you on this most important
project for environmental security and future energy. Thank you for taki= ng
the initiative. I hopy others who receive this email will also respond w= ith
their ideas of support.

Sincerely,
Tom Valone
President
Integrity Research Institute
www.integrity-research.org

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Vesperman" <vman skylink.net>
To: "Tom Valone" <iri erols.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 9:58 AM
Subject: Add to energy bill declassifying energy patents

Tom,

Yesterday I attended at the Desert Research Institute (www.dri.edu ) her= e in
Las Vegas a public announcement by local Congresswoman Shelley Berkley.=20= For
a local newspaper's report, see
http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Aug-16-Thu-2001/business/16785109.htm= l .

The occasion is her introduction of a bill to provide $750 million in lo= an
guarantees to be administered by the Small Business Administration. The=20= SBA
already provides nationally $11 billion in loan guarantees although the
actual cost to federal taxpayers in administrative costs and loan losses= is
only $100 million. The emphasis of the loans is "to encourage the use of
renewable energies by businesses and to spur investments in innovative
technologies reducing dependence on fossil fuels, foreign energy sources= ,
and to improve the quality of air.

In response to Berkley's request for questions from the audience after h= er
announcement, I explained that the U.S. Patent Office has a nine-member
committee which screens patents for national security implications. I al= so
explained that a hidden purpose of this committee is to screen
energy-related patents which could threaten the fossil-fuel monopolies,=20= the
power grid, etc. When an inventor has his or her energy patent classifie= d,
the inventor faces 20 years in prison for working on or publicizing the
invention. A Space Energy Journal article by Don Kelly claimed some year= s
ago that there are now 3000 energy patents which have been classified.

I asked Berkley to add a section to her bill to establish some kind of
mechanism for going back and reviewing all these classified energy paten= ts
for possible release and government support for their development. Berkl= ey
seemed favorably responsive. I offered to help her write the section and= was
referred to a staff member.

According to his business card, Mark Guiton is Legislative Director. Add= ress
is US House of Representatives, 439 Cannon Building, Washington, DC 2051= 5.
Phone 202-225-5965; fax 202-225-3119; Mark.Guiton mail.house.gov=A0 .

I can see several ways you can help me declassify energy patents:

First, provide references I can send to Mark that backs up my claims abo= ut
the 9-member screening committee, 20 years in jail, 3000 classified pate= nts,
etc.

Second, give me permission to give your name, address, etc. to Mark with= a
very short bio. I would suggest to Mark to go to you for expert advice
concerning the Patent Office and its classified energy patents.

Third, describe a mechanism that can be incorporated in the new section=20= of
the legislation specifying exactly how the patents are to be reviewed an= d
declassified. One crucial feature is how to pick people for the review
committee who are honest and are not consultants for the utilities, oil=20= and
gas companies, etc.

Thanks for your help!

Gary Vesperman
[address and telephone, snip]



--part1_14f.864713.28c84b41_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 21:05:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA03807; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:04:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:04:47 -0700 Message-ID: <01df01c13688$ffd7cef0$6401a8c0 cs910664a> From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <3B96D651.A559C1E4 ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: How does one join vortex? Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 00:04:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"mCQI33.0.Ox.VNlbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Once you are on Vortex, John, you can't get off. And if you're off, you can't get on. The instructions used to be hidden on a sub-page of Bill's Web Site. I tried to find it again a couple of weeks ago but I think he's moved it again. Uh, follow the white rabbit? :-) Colin Quinney ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:50 PM Subject: How does one join vortex? > I've been on vortex so many years I can't find how I subscribed. > > I am having a discussion with someone, and I was about to suggest they join vortex to > learn about the subject, but I can't find how to anywhere. > > freenrg-l and taoshum-l are easy to find, but no vortex? > > > Help? > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.274 / Virus Database: 144 - Release Date: 8/24/2001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 21:25:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA12996; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:22:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:22:59 -0700 Message-ID: <022401c1368b$8882ebc0$6401a8c0 cs910664a> From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <3B96D651.A559C1E4 ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: How does one join vortex? Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 00:22:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"tgy602.0.wA3.Zelbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John, I found the instructions on my hard drive. Colin Q. =================================== Vortex-L subscription instructions: To subscribe, send a *blank* message to: vortex-L-request eskimo.com Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header. No quotes around "subscribe," of course. You will get an automatic greeting message in response. Once subscribed, send your email to vortex-L eskimo.com. Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe, send a blank message to vortex-L-request eskimo.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line. Vortex-L digest mode: If you prefer "digest" mode messages, collections of messages up to 40K total or every 2 days, then subscribe to the vortex-digest instead of to vortex-L. Send a blank message to: vortex-digest-request eskimo.com Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header. Vortex-L forwards each received message within minutes or hours of receipt. Vortex-digest collects messages, then sends them as single large chunks. Vortex-L and Vortex-digest are two separate lists. It is possible to subscribe to one or the other, or both. Help: To obtain a copy of this file, send a blank email with the word "help" in the subject line. Send it to vortex-L-request eskimo.com Address Changes: If your email address changes, you can email billb eskimo.com to fix things. Or, you can simply send a "subscribe" command while using your new account. When your old account is turned off, the vortex-L bounce detector will unsubscribe it. If you still have access to the older account address, you can unsubscribe yourself using that address. ======================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:50 PM Subject: How does one join vortex? > I've been on vortex so many years I can't find how I subscribed. > > I am having a discussion with someone, and I was about to suggest they join vortex to > learn about the subject, but I can't find how to anywhere. > > freenrg-l and taoshum-l are easy to find, but no vortex? > > > Help? > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.274 / Virus Database: 144 - Release Date: 8/24/2001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 5 21:28:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA14741; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:27:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:27:20 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: How does one join vortex? Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 00:34:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <01df01c13688$ffd7cef0$6401a8c0 cs910664a> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"6a_1K3.0.Ec3.dilbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: One joins by inferring that the syntax for joining and unjoining are the same for all of Bills lists as he runs them all off of Eskimos's listserv. so http://www.eskimo.com/~bilb/freenrgl/flist.html ...substituting vortex for freenrg where appropriate. K. -----Original Message----- From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin home.com] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:04 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: How does one join vortex? Once you are on Vortex, John, you can't get off. And if you're off, you can't get on. The instructions used to be hidden on a sub-page of Bill's Web Site. I tried to find it again a couple of weeks ago but I think he's moved it again. Uh, follow the white rabbit? :-) Colin Quinney ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Berry" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:50 PM Subject: How does one join vortex? > I've been on vortex so many years I can't find how I subscribed. > > I am having a discussion with someone, and I was about to suggest they join vortex to > learn about the subject, but I can't find how to anywhere. > > freenrg-l and taoshum-l are easy to find, but no vortex? > > > Help? > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.274 / Virus Database: 144 - Release Date: 8/24/2001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 05:03:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA24677; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 05:02:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 05:02:42 -0700 Message-ID: <005401c136e4$c0130580$5856ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <999481534.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010905140036.02b07168@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010905175853.02b4ebc8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:59:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"hlXIy2.0.T16.YNsbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > Akira Kawasaki wrote: > > >The only "Best in Conference" vote that I can recall is the one that > >Jaeger of Eneco (sponsor) conducted on the entertainment night 'cruise' > >boat where the attendees were asked to vote on a list of five minute > >poster introductions where we would like to have an extended presentation. > > Case was one of those selected. He must have impressed many people, despite > his nonchalant attitude, and his audacious claims, and his appearance. (He > was best described by Mike Carrell as a "frump.") This must be a misquote, as "frump" is not a word I normally use. However, I remember walking into the poster session at ICCF-7 on my first arrival at the meeting venue and seeing Case talking to a few visitors including, as I recall, Gene Mallove, who I was looking for to touch base with. Case's appearance with a plaid shirt and pictures of his cell were not very impressive, as if he had just wandered in out of the backwoods [which, essentially, he had] but I soon caught that there was a bit of a "buzz" about what he was saying. When I listened to what he was saying, its importance was immediately apparent. The conference schedule included spots for formal presentations of selected poster session papers, and Case was one of those selected by an informal vote. He managed to find a tie and a jacket for the occasion, but the plaid shirt was still there. No matter; he had done what many others had not, found a new catalytic system and operating conditions that produced excess heat and He4 in a gas phase loading. > > McKubre praised him in his closing statements, at the end of the > conference. To be honest, I did not pay much attention to Case until I > heard how impressed McKubre was.> > > > > I suspect Russ exaggerates his own contributions. That is what McKubre > > > says, in a very diplomatic tone. But I have never been to SRI, I was not > > > there when the research was conducted, so I cannot judge who did what, or > > > who deserves the credit. I have been to SRI, in a completely different context. It is one of the largest private not-for-profit industrial research laboratories in the country, formerly associated with Stanford University, now independent. When GE bought RCA in the 80's, part of the breakup of RCA was a **donation** of the David Sarnoff Research Center in Princeton to SRI, for which GE took a $250 million write-off, then turned around and contracted for (I believe) $50 million of research projects to ease the transition for the laboratory from a wholly-owned corporate laboratory to survival on its own. I was at Sarnoff at the time. Today, as the Sarnoff Corporation, it is doing very nicely as a for-profit subsidiary of SRI. Jack Welch, CEO of GE, handled that transaction nicely, for in its glory days DSRC was a world-class lab and it would have been a crime to dismantle it. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 05:03:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA24696; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 05:02:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 05:02:44 -0700 Message-ID: <005501c136e4$c0e597c0$5856ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3B968754.1B7D26F6@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Arata Cathodes and tritium Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 08:00:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"AWOh6.0.o16.aNsbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms wrote: > > slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: > > > On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > > > That is a good point, Mike. In addition, only a small fraction of the Pd > > > powder within the cell is active. > > > > How do we know that only a small fraction of the Pd powder within > > the cell is active? If so, it should be possible to get the same > > results with less powder. Do they check the Pd for transmutation, > > sampling different areas? Where is the Pd most active? Near it's > > center, or where the powder meets the inner cathode wall? > > The nuclear reaction can only occur where the D concentration is extremely high. Such a high concentration can > only occur where the powder contacts the Pd container. In addition, only the smallest particles are active. > This are only a fraction of the total. Case uses much less Pd powder, hence can be more efficient. With due respect to Ed, who has done some recent and important work on surface effects, my recall of the Arata papers is somewhat different. It's been several years since I did the piece for IE, and my reconstruction may be a bit faulty. The Arata cathode has a shell of palladium, the interior is **packed** with a palladium nanopowder. Arata tried different powder sizes and got best results with a powder whose smallest particles were about 40 microns on a side, just a few hundred atoms in each direction, with a highly irregular surface. After a run, what were originally crystalline forms developed rounded surfaces, as if by partial melting, as seen in photomicrographs. Very intense reactions were going on. In the cell, D+ ions were formed and driven by electrolytic forces, migrated through the Pd walls to the interior. At the interior face, D+ ions could a) find an electron and another ion and form D2 gas and diffuse between the powder particles, or b) migrate along the contacting surfaces of the powder particles, beginning with the wall and continuing though the powder mass. There is a name for this process which I forget at the moment, but it is well known in chemistry. This latter path is the preferred one, and continues until the particles are essentially covered with D+ ions. At that time, the transition to a gas phase is forced. Arata presents evidence for this in measurements of the pressure of gas within the capsule as the electrolysis proceeds. there is a definite delay, which (as I recall) is a function of the particle size. The interior pressure can rise to many atmospheres. The fractured surfaces of the particles present many different conditions, none of them specified or controlled. D+ ions can enter the particle lattices, or remain on the surface -- we don't know. Somehow in some fraction of the particles, the conditions for the reactions occur. In Arata's experiments, capsules were opened in a special vacuum system which was coupled to two mass spectrometers and a getter chamber. The capsule was heated and the chamber pumped, removing all the easily scrubbed gases and organics. The pump was sealed off and the getter chamber opened as the heating continued. The getter will capture all chemically active gases, including and residual hydrogen. The heating continued and the two spectrometers were opened. One was tuned for tritium, the other for He4. They had sufficient resolution to distinguish between species of closely related masses. To my knowledge, Arata made not attempt to measure the distribution of the various species within the cathode structure. I don't know what setup McKubre used. Ed Storms' recent work indicates that the effect we have been seeking is entirely a surface effect, which is consistent with the positive results from the Case and Arata approaches. We still don't know what are the necessary and sufficient conditions, but Ed's experiments may well point in a useful direction. > > > > > > > > If these factors are taken into account, I > > > would expect this to be a very efficient way to make tritium, provided the > > > process can be duplicated. However, tritium formation is much more rare than > > > He4 production and even more poorly understood. As for being a source of > > > bomb-grade tritium, several other methods work very well. For example, the > > > Canadians and the French are making tritium by the pound in their heavy-water > > > cooled reactors. The would does not lack tritium and, indeed, may have a > > > problem getting rid of what is made. > > > > I see tritium production as a drawback. I don't want to make bombs, I want > > cheap power. > > > > It is interesting that the reaction takes place (mostly?) in the powder and > > not the cathode itself. I wonder if that is due to the interior cavity being at > > a uniform D2 pressure while the cathode isn't, or if it is as you've said before Dr. Storm, a surface effect. > > Fine powder can acquire a higher D concentration for the same applied pressure compared to bulk material. In > addition, some of the models suggest a resonance condition is required, something that might be easier to > produce in a grain of suitable size. By surface effect, I have always meant that only the near surface region > of a cathode can acquire a sufficiently high concentration to be active. For the reaction to occur at all, the > active region must consist of many atoms, which can share the resulting nuclear energy. > > > > > > > It can't be that the powder is loading faster as the deuterium has to pass > > through the cathode wall first. I wonder if there is a region of the cathode > > that shows more evidence of fusion than other regions; transmutations, 4He, > > 3He and tritium ash, heat, and so forth. The D+ ions diffuse through the capsule wall into the nanopowder. It could be that in McKubre's runs the action takes place in the nanopowder next to the wall. In the text above, I gave my impression of Arata's position. Arata began work on his DS cathodes very soon after the F-P announcement and had early success. Some of his cathodes were kept for years and restarted repeatedly. Thus if the run were longer, more powder might participate, the tritium distribution might be different, etc. For the immediate purposes, the fact that the tritium distribution is greater on the inside wall than the outside wall shows that it originated inside the capsule, and not by environmental contamination. That is all that is important at the present. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 05:04:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA24664; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 05:02:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 05:02:41 -0700 Message-ID: <005301c136e4$bf5bea80$5856ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <999481534.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> <5.0.2.1.2.20010905140036.02b07168@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:59:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"raGSe2.0.D16.XNsbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed said: > Akira Kawasaki wrote: > > >As I understands it, McKubre et al sponges off the work that Russ George > >undertakes there, such as the Case replication effort and his obtaining > >the Arata DS Cathodes for SRI. > > That is an exaggeration. When Case first went public at an ICCF conference, > McKubre was very impressed and voted Case "Best in Conference." He > understood how impressive this was, without help from Russ George. Immediately after ICCF-7, Gene Mallove invited Case to his lab in Bow, NH; Case lives in the area. Ed Wall made attempts to duplicate the Case work without success. At the time Ed [formerly with the FAA as a radar installation engineer}was learning Lab skills. Case gave some help, but there then came a consulting arrangement with McKubre at SRI for money, and Case put his efforts in that direction. I have no knowledge of what George was doing at that time. > > I suspect Russ exaggerates his own contributions. That is what McKubre > says, in a very diplomatic tone. But I have never been to SRI, I was not > there when the research was conducted, so I cannot judge who did what, or > who deserves the credit. To my knowledge, George did visit Arata on one or more occasions. He may have been instrumental in getting Arata cathodes to McKubre; I have an impression (possibly false) that McKubre tried to make DS cathodes on his own without success; the metallurgy is tricky. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 07:43:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27527; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:42:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:42:54 -0700 Message-ID: <004101c136e2$744e93a0$b436a6d8 ronscomputer> From: "Ron Marshall" To: Subject: RE: How does one join vortex? Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:44:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003E_01C136B8.8A7CC680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"k4DN-.0.xj6.kjubx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C136B8.8A7CC680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the info is at http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html. Ron Marshall ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C136B8.8A7CC680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
the info is at http://www.eskimo.= com/~billb/weird/wvort.html.
 
Ron Marshall
 
------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C136B8.8A7CC680-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 11:32:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA22644; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:31:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:31:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3B97B321.15AF350 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 11:32:42 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Arata Cathodes and tritium References: <3B968754.1B7D26F6@ix.netcom.com> <005501c136e4$c0e597c0$5856ccd1@asus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rwxmi1.0.cX5.r3ybx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike's description is essentially what I understand about the Arata study and does not differ from what I said above. The highest concentration of D+ occurs in the palladium particles lying next to the inner surface of the container. This region benefits from what is called "spillover" hydrogen. Only this material would be active. On this point, Arata agrees. The only unknown is how thick this active region might be. Ed Mike Carrell wrote: > Ed Storms wrote: > > > slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > > > > > That is a good point, Mike. In addition, only a small fraction of the > Pd > > > > powder within the cell is active. > > > > > > How do we know that only a small fraction of the Pd powder within > > > the cell is active? If so, it should be possible to get the same > > > results with less powder. Do they check the Pd for transmutation, > > > sampling different areas? Where is the Pd most active? Near it's > > > center, or where the powder meets the inner cathode wall? > > > > The nuclear reaction can only occur where the D concentration is extremely > high. Such a high concentration can > > only occur where the powder contacts the Pd container. In addition, only > the smallest particles are active. > > This are only a fraction of the total. Case uses much less Pd powder, > hence can be more efficient. > > With due respect to Ed, who has done some recent and important work on > surface effects, my recall of the Arata papers is somewhat different. It's > been several years since I did the piece for IE, and my reconstruction may > be a bit faulty. The Arata cathode has a shell of palladium, the interior is > **packed** with a palladium nanopowder. Arata tried different powder sizes > and got best results with a powder whose smallest particles were about 40 > microns on a side, just a few hundred atoms in each direction, with a highly > irregular surface. After a run, what were originally crystalline forms > developed rounded surfaces, as if by partial melting, as seen in > photomicrographs. Very intense reactions were going on. > > In the cell, D+ ions were formed and driven by electrolytic forces, migrated > through the Pd walls to the interior. At the interior face, D+ ions could a) > find an electron and another ion and form D2 gas and diffuse between the > powder particles, or b) migrate along the contacting surfaces of the powder > particles, beginning with the wall and continuing though the powder mass. > There is a name for this process which I forget at the moment, but it is > well known in chemistry. This latter path is the preferred one, and > continues > until the particles are essentially covered with D+ ions. At that time, the > transition to a gas phase is forced. > > Arata presents evidence for this in measurements of the pressure of gas > within the capsule as the electrolysis proceeds. there is a definite delay, > which (as I recall) is a function of the particle size. The interior > pressure can rise to many atmospheres. > > The fractured surfaces of the particles present many different conditions, > none of them specified or controlled. D+ ions can enter the particle > lattices, or remain on the surface -- we don't know. Somehow in some > fraction of the particles, the conditions for the reactions occur. > > In Arata's experiments, capsules were opened in a special vacuum system > which was coupled to two mass spectrometers and a getter chamber. The > capsule was heated and the chamber pumped, removing all the easily scrubbed > gases and organics. The pump was sealed off and the getter chamber opened as > the heating continued. The getter will capture all chemically active gases, > including and residual hydrogen. The heating continued and the two > spectrometers were opened. One was tuned for tritium, the other for He4. > They had sufficient resolution to distinguish between species of closely > related masses. To my knowledge, Arata made not attempt to measure the > distribution of the various species within the cathode structure. > > I don't know what setup McKubre used. > > Ed Storms' recent work indicates that the effect we have been seeking is > entirely a surface effect, which is consistent with the positive results > from the Case and Arata approaches. We still don't know what are the > necessary and sufficient conditions, but Ed's experiments may well point in > a useful direction. > > > > > > > > > > > If these factors are taken into account, I > > > > would expect this to be a very efficient way to make tritium, provided > the > > > > process can be duplicated. However, tritium formation is much more > rare than > > > > He4 production and even more poorly understood. As for being a > source of > > > > bomb-grade tritium, several other methods work very well. For > example, the > > > > Canadians and the French are making tritium by the pound in their > heavy-water > > > > cooled reactors. The would does not lack tritium and, indeed, may > have a > > > > problem getting rid of what is made. > > > > > > I see tritium production as a drawback. I don't want to make bombs, I > want > > > cheap power. > > > > > > It is interesting that the reaction takes place (mostly?) in the powder > and > > > not the cathode itself. I wonder if that is due to the interior cavity > being at > > > a uniform D2 pressure while the cathode isn't, or if it is as you've > said before Dr. Storm, a surface effect. > > > > Fine powder can acquire a higher D concentration for the same applied > pressure compared to bulk material. In > > addition, some of the models suggest a resonance condition is required, > something that might be easier to > > produce in a grain of suitable size. By surface effect, I have always > meant that only the near surface region > > of a cathode can acquire a sufficiently high concentration to be active. > For the reaction to occur at all, the > > active region must consist of many atoms, which can share the resulting > nuclear energy. > > > > > > > > > > > It can't be that the powder is loading faster as the deuterium has to > pass > > > through the cathode wall first. I wonder if there is a region of the > cathode > > > that shows more evidence of fusion than other regions; transmutations, > 4He, > > > 3He and tritium ash, heat, and so forth. > > The D+ ions diffuse through the capsule wall into the nanopowder. It could > be that in McKubre's runs the action takes place in the nanopowder next to > the wall. In the text above, I gave my impression of Arata's position. Arata > began work on his DS cathodes very soon after the F-P announcement and had > early success. Some of his cathodes were kept for years and restarted > repeatedly. Thus if the run were longer, more powder might participate, the > tritium distribution might be different, etc. For the immediate purposes, > the fact that the tritium distribution is greater on the inside wall than > the outside wall shows that it originated inside the capsule, and not by > environmental contamination. That is all that is important at the present. > > Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 13:06:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06031; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:05:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:05:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:05:47 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: a Hamel device runs continuously Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"iir1N1.0.3U1.USzbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Two people on the yahoo hameltech group apparantly have a working device: it wiggles continuously. No weird glowing or antigrav, just constant vibration. This version of the "hamel" device is three stacked support cones with ceramic magnets around the rims, stacked up in a surrounding frame with magnets centering the cones. Photo links below. Here's the message where "Tom" got his version to run constantly: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/message/5173 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/message/5185 From: "Tom" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 7:54 pm Subject: Device Start Up Procedure ! Thinking always of the machines variations, I hadn't given much thought to the possible different ways to start this thing. I needed to be assured of the configuration before putting it into a barrel. As it is now, cones in a frame,it just stands there and vibrates. I like that ... a lot. After many crashes, trying to find the lightest weight that the cones could be, I'm there. Start up is a (another) test of patience. It was too simple because I wanted things now. With as light a load on the rejection magnets as can barely hold the cones from crashing, slowly and incrementaly give it a little tiny bit more. Wait. When it apears to be stopped, give it just a tiny bit more. Wait. Etc, Etc. Took about an hour from dead to Dejed. Tom. PS Original Geometry See Files Tom2 Here's one from a couple of days later: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/message/5233 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/messages/5261?viscount=-30 From: "Tom" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 8:27 pm Subject: Delighted and Confused ! The device is still running ... (this is the delightful part) only thing is (this is the confusing part) I slid the rejection magnet and mounting member off and away from the machine to change the magnets as an expiriment ... over an hour ago ... and it's still running , just fine. No Rejection Magnet ! I joked about Djed , but now it really looks like one. In the images that I have seen (so far) the Djed is shown with just the cones stacked on top of each other, no rejection magnet ... right ? I guess the rejection magnet is for starting this thing ONLY. Now I'm Having Fun ! Welcome Back DJED Tom. Images of his device: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image8.jpg http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image9.jpg http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image10.jpg http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image11.jpg http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image12.jpg http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/ Apparently a "Brian Keohi" on that forum also got one of these to work earlier. Report of an independant witness: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/message/5397 From: ballantyne g... Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 10:46 am Subject: Start of a visit to Tom. Hi its Mac. Sorry to do what I did but I really was down to a few minutes before I had a serious family problem on my hands. I am going to post a brief account followed by a letter and pics. I haven't even read the letters on the site yet. It turns out that Tom and I live close enough that a visit was not a major problem. We exchanged phone numbers then agreed to meet in the open at a place both of us knew. After the formalities of meeting me in person were set aside I followed him to where his shop was located and was allowed to view his machine. The machine is exactly as his photos in the files show. I thought that I would see a machine that wobbled about an 1/8" and hummed loudly. This not what was there. What it does do is a sort of a shimmer ....... It is very hard to see it move at all . You think that it is standing still....... and then you see movement After a while you can see the movement is like a sort of wave.... less on the bottom to a larger movement on the top of the top cone. The wave is not a regular vibration but more like waves on a beach with little ripples followed by larger movement........ but yes always moving....... At one point I placed my finger light on the top cone and felt the movement....... a THRUM is the closest word I can find to describe it. A large pulse with many small pulses inside of the large pulse all occuring at slightly irregular times. 1-3 second intervals sometimes 5 seconds . The small pulses reminded me of the time we were spinning Alum. discs around here and holding magnets up against them . Regardless of how fast the disc was spinning there was a vibration and this is what the small pulses felt like. There was no vibration discernable on the base or oscillitor base. There was no audible sound{There may have been but after playing guitar in bars for fifteen years my hearing is not what it used to be] We didn't have much equipment to verify this other than our hands. I would like to try some things wich are not subject to interpretation or emotion ie. mech dial indicators, laser pointer,or any other.....maybe a prox. sensor would show something that would amplify the motion without touching the cones. Tom thinks that this would be interesting. He may travel to my shop with the machine or I may go to see him again and next time we will be armed with some test equip. More to follow. Truly Mac. abaker wrote: > billb wrote: > > --- In free_energy yahoo.com, abaker@c... wrote: > > > > > Go check out the hameltech group. > > > 2 people now have their devices continously running. > > > > > > Aaron Baker > > > > Might you know their names? That would help greatly > > when going through all that email. Or might they > > have photos on websites? > > If you look at the posts from "bill" and "Tom." > Tom first got his running and then bill followed earlier this month. > > It oscillates only doesn't spin a shaft or something. see below for much earlier, more incredible story (from 1999) ((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L from http://members.nbci.com/undergsci/steve45gd.html The Second Test Run First off I cut 4 vetilation holes in the top and the bottom of the barrel. The ventilation holes were the size of a CD disc. I used that as a template. The holes were alined top to bottom. The holes on the bottom were kept 100% open while the holes on the top were cover. They were revited so I could open them to different degrees. The small motor was insulated and stabilized by 4 brackets to the inside of the barrel. A dry cell battery was wired to the motor. A dry cell would burn out this particular motor so a small rheostat ( kind of like a light dimmer ) was attached to regulate the flow from the battery to the motor. The motor was inside, with two wires extending outside by about 12 feet away. Stereo wiring was used and seemed to work well. The rheostat would allow to slowly increase the power to the motor and to increase the speed of the motor. Around 9:00 p.m. the set-up was complete, with the wiring, battery and rheostat about 12 feet away. A small T.V. was within 6 feet, which was a mistake because it blew up. Anyway, the barrel was set on 6 bricks to allow for vetilation. At 9:05 the motor was set into movement. At 9:10 nothing was happening so I increased the speed of the motor using the rheostat. At 9:15 the vibration began and at 9:17 the high pitch noise began. Since this had happened in the past I was not too surprised. At this time I decided to increase the speed of the motor using the rheostat. I also decided to open (using attached wires ) the holes on the top. Upon opening the holes on the top the vibration and noise decreased by, i would guess 50%. I continued to view the barrel for the next 4 minutes. Not much was happening except for the low grade vibration and the low level high pitched noise which was getting rather annoying. I decided to increase the motor speed just slightly more. I didn't want to blow the motor by juicing it too much but I did want to increase the speed. Which I did. After 3 minutes of increase speed the vibration stopped and the noise took on a deeper quality of humming like. Then a orangish red glow came from the vent holes. The whole drum DID NOT GLOW, just from the vent holes. Around the time the glow occurred the lights in the house began to flicker and go dull. The lights DID NOT GO OUT, but they did dim. I also noticed the neighbor behind me, back porch light dimmed. The lights remained dim, which caused my wife to come out and find out what the hell was going on. She was there to witness the event. The barrel , much to my delight and amazement rose about 6-8 ft off the bricks and hovered for about 30 seconds at which time the strain on the wire caused the battery to disconnect. When the battery disconnected the barrel elevated about another 1 foot before coming crashing to the ground.Right before the barrel started to levitate was when the T.V. exploded scaring the (blank out of both of us). The dim house lights returned to normal brightness. I was truly astonished by the whole event, not to mention that my wife couldn't believe it and has now promised she won't make fun of me anymore. I have gathered up everything a tucked it away in a double locked garage. Not to long after going back into the house the phone rang. It was one of our neighbors asking my wife if we had , had problems with our electricity. My wife said we had ...but left it at that. If anyone would care to share if they have had similar experiences , I would appreciate it. Right now, I am not interested in why or how it worked. I just know what I saw and what my wife saw with me, so I know I wasn't hallucinating. She had no idea as to what the barrel was suppose to do, yet she saw it rise and hover just like I did. So, I don't think it was group hallucination either. Plus, I have a destroyed T.V. Any help or further suggestions would be appreciated, as I don't know where to go from here. I did try to video tape the event, but the video tape did not turn out for some reason. One additional thing that I also noticed, right before the barrel rose and while it was hovering. There was kind of a weird distortion that appeared to extended about 4 inches from the barrel. I can't really describe it, except it was like looking through air when it is real hot, how things look all wavy like. BUT NOTHING WAS HOT !!! The weird distortion is what Wilhelm would call Orgone energy and is photon light. Did Hamel notice this? Has anyone else visualized this? Any one who has ever seen a ufo has seen this light. Someone let me know, please. Thanks Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 13:10:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07971; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:09:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:09:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:09:34 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: How does one join vortex? In-Reply-To: <01df01c13688$ffd7cef0$6401a8c0 cs910664a> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"1DGBx3.0.Sy1.0Wzbx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Colin Quinney wrote: > Once you are on Vortex, John, you can't get off. And if you're off, you > can't get on. The instructions used to be hidden on a sub-page of Bill's Web > Site. I tried to find it again a couple of weeks ago but I think he's moved > it again. Nope, it's hidden on the cold fusion links page ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 18:32:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA14479; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:31:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:31:23 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010906203542.00a23750 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:37:56 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: a Hamel device runs continuously In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"lgRFp2.0.8Y3.hD2cx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Bill: It is good to see some success now and then... I noticed the thread "Delighted and confused" Could only mean one thing :-) I gues I will have to join so I can see the images. I got the "oops you're not a member" page At 01:05 PM 9/6/01 -0700, you wrote: >Two people on the yahoo hameltech group apparantly have a working device: >it wiggles continuously. No weird glowing or antigrav, just constant >vibration. This version of the "hamel" device is three stacked support >cones with ceramic magnets around the rims, stacked up in a surrounding >frame with magnets centering the cones. Photo links below. Here's the >message where "Tom" got his version to run constantly: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/message/5173 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/message/5185 > From: "Tom" > Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 7:54 pm > Subject: Device Start Up > > Procedure ! > Thinking always of the machines variations, I hadn't given much > thought to the possible different ways to start this thing. > I needed to be assured of the configuration before putting it into a > barrel. As it is now, cones in a frame,it just stands there and > vibrates. I like that ... a lot. > > After many crashes, trying to find the lightest weight that the > cones could be, I'm there. > > Start up is a (another) test of patience. It was too simple because > I wanted things now. > > With as light a load on the rejection magnets as can barely hold the > cones from crashing, slowly and incrementaly give it a little tiny bit > more. Wait. When it apears to be stopped, give it just a tiny bit more. > Wait. Etc, Etc. > > Took about an hour from dead to Dejed. > > Tom. > > PS Original Geometry See Files Tom2 > > > > >Here's one from a couple of days later: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/message/5233 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/messages/5261?viscount=-30 > From: "Tom" > Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 8:27 pm > Subject: Delighted and Confused ! > > The device is still running ... (this is the delightful part) > > only thing is (this is the confusing part) > > I slid the rejection magnet and mounting member off and away from > the machine to change the magnets as an expiriment ... over an hour ago > ... and it's still running , just fine. No Rejection Magnet ! > > I joked about Djed , but now it really looks like one. In the images > that I have seen (so far) the Djed is shown with just the cones > stacked on top of each other, no rejection magnet ... right ? > > I guess the rejection magnet is for starting this thing ONLY. > > Now I'm Having Fun ! > > Welcome Back DJED > > Tom. > > > >Images of his device: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image8.jpg >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image9.jpg >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image10.jpg >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image11.jpg >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image12.jpg >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/ > > > >Apparently a "Brian Keohi" on that forum also got one of these to work >earlier. > >Report of an independant witness: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/message/5397 > From: ballantyne g... > Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 10:46 am > Subject: Start of a visit to Tom. > > Hi its Mac. Sorry to do what I did but I really was down to a few > minutes before I had a serious family problem on my hands. I am going > to post a brief account followed by a letter and pics. I haven't even > read the letters on the site yet. > > It turns out that Tom and I live close enough that a visit was not > a major problem. We exchanged phone numbers then agreed to meet in > the open at a place both of us knew. After the formalities of meeting > me in person were set aside I followed him to where his shop was > located and was allowed to view his machine. > > The machine is exactly as his photos in the files show. I thought > that I would see a machine that wobbled about an 1/8" and hummed > loudly. This not what was there. What it does do is a sort of a > shimmer ....... It is very hard to see it move at all . You think that > it is standing still....... and then you see movement After a while > you can see the movement is like a sort of wave.... less on the bottom > to a larger movement on the top of the top cone. The wave is not a > regular vibration but more like waves on a beach with little ripples > followed by larger movement........ but yes always moving....... At > one point I placed my finger light on the top cone and felt the > movement....... a THRUM is the closest word I can find to describe it. > > A large pulse with many small pulses inside of the large pulse all > occuring at slightly irregular times. 1-3 second intervals sometimes > 5 seconds . The small pulses reminded me of the time we were spinning > Alum. discs around here and holding magnets up against them . > Regardless of how fast the disc was spinning there was a vibration > and this is what the small pulses felt like. > > There was no vibration discernable on the base or oscillitor base. > There was no audible sound{There may have been but after playing > guitar in bars for fifteen years my hearing is not what it used to be] > > We didn't have much equipment to verify this other than our hands. > I would like to try some things wich are not subject to > interpretation or emotion ie. mech dial indicators, laser pointer,or > any other.....maybe a prox. sensor would show something that would > amplify the motion without touching the cones. Tom thinks that this > would be interesting. He may travel to my shop with the machine or I > may go to see him again and next time we will be armed with some test > equip. More to follow. Truly Mac. > > > > > >abaker wrote: > > billb wrote: > > > --- In free_energy yahoo.com, abaker@c... wrote: > > > > > > > Go check out the hameltech group. > > > > 2 people now have their devices continously running. > > > > > > > > Aaron Baker > > > > > > Might you know their names? That would help greatly > > > when going through all that email. Or might they > > > have photos on websites? > > > > If you look at the posts from "bill" and "Tom." > > Tom first got his running and then bill followed earlier this month. > > > > It oscillates only doesn't spin a shaft or something. > > > > >see below for much earlier, more incredible story (from 1999) > >((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L > > > > >from http://members.nbci.com/undergsci/steve45gd.html > >The Second Test Run > >First off I cut 4 vetilation holes in the top and the bottom of the >barrel. The ventilation holes were the size of a CD disc. I used that as a >template. The holes were alined top to bottom. The holes on the bottom >were kept 100% open while the holes on the top were cover. They were >revited so I could open them to different degrees. The small motor was >insulated and stabilized by 4 brackets to the inside of the barrel. A dry >cell battery was wired to the motor. A dry cell would burn out this >particular motor so a small rheostat ( kind of like a light dimmer ) was >attached to regulate the flow from the battery to the motor. The motor was >inside, with two wires extending outside by about 12 feet away. Stereo >wiring was used and seemed to work well. The rheostat would allow to >slowly increase the power to the motor and to increase the speed of the >motor. Around 9:00 p.m. the set-up was complete, with the wiring, battery >and rheostat about 12 feet away. A small T.V. was within 6 feet, which was >a mistake because it blew up. Anyway, the barrel was set on 6 bricks to >allow for vetilation. At 9:05 the motor was set into movement. At 9:10 >nothing was happening so I increased the speed of the motor using the >rheostat. At 9:15 the vibration began and at 9:17 the high pitch noise >began. Since this had happened in the past I was not too surprised. At >this time I decided to increase the speed of the motor using the rheostat. >I also decided to open (using attached wires ) the holes on the top. Upon >opening the holes on the top the vibration and noise decreased by, i would >guess 50%. I continued to view the barrel for the next 4 minutes. Not much >was happening except for the low grade vibration and the low level high >pitched noise which was getting rather annoying. I decided to increase the >motor speed just slightly more. I didn't want to blow the motor by juicing >it too much but I did want to increase the speed. Which I did. After 3 >minutes of increase speed the vibration stopped and the noise took on a >deeper quality of humming like. Then a orangish red glow came from the >vent holes. The whole drum DID NOT GLOW, just from the vent holes. Around >the time the glow occurred the lights in the house began to flicker and go >dull. The lights DID NOT GO OUT, but they did dim. I also noticed the >neighbor behind me, back porch light dimmed. The lights remained dim, >which caused my wife to come out and find out what the hell was going on. >She was there to witness the event. The barrel , much to my delight and >amazement rose about 6-8 ft off the bricks and hovered for about 30 >seconds at which time the strain on the wire caused the battery to >disconnect. When the battery disconnected the barrel elevated about >another 1 foot before coming crashing to the ground.Right before the >barrel started to levitate was when the T.V. exploded scaring the (blank >out of both of us). The dim house lights returned to normal brightness. I >was truly astonished by the whole event, not to mention that my wife >couldn't believe it and has now promised she won't make fun of me anymore. >I have gathered up everything a tucked it away in a double locked garage. >Not to long after going back into the house the phone rang. It was one of >our neighbors asking my wife if we had , had problems with our >electricity. My wife said we had ...but left it at that. If anyone would >care to share if they have had similar experiences , I would appreciate >it. Right now, I am not interested in why or how it worked. I just know >what I saw and what my wife saw with me, so I know I wasn't hallucinating. >She had no idea as to what the barrel was suppose to do, yet she saw it >rise and hover just like I did. So, I don't think it was group >hallucination either. Plus, I have a destroyed T.V. Any help or further >suggestions would be appreciated, as I don't know where to go from here. I >did try to video tape the event, but the video tape did not turn out for >some reason. One additional thing that I also noticed, right before the >barrel rose and while it was hovering. There was kind of a weird >distortion that appeared to extended about 4 inches from the barrel. I >can't really describe it, except it was like looking through air when it >is real hot, how things look all wavy like. BUT NOTHING WAS HOT !!! The >weird distortion is what Wilhelm would call Orgone energy and is photon >light. Did Hamel notice this? Has anyone else visualized this? Any one who >has ever seen a ufo has seen this light. Someone let me know, please. >Thanks >Steve _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 19:02:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA25411; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:01:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:01:29 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: a Hamel device runs continuously Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 22:09:06 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010906203542.00a23750 pop.mail.yahoo.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"mGNgJ.0.tC6.vf2cx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Hi. Sounds like a very sensitive device. I am reminded of an old SciAm article on earthquake detection where a seismograph was described using balanced magnets as the sensing element. As I remember, it was excruciatingly sensitive. I wonder how well isolated from the ambient vibration this device is? If I'm not mistaken it's clamped to a milk crate which is resting on ?????? K. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1 yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 9:38 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: a Hamel device runs continuously Bill: It is good to see some success now and then... I noticed the thread "Delighted and confused" Could only mean one thing :-) I gues I will have to join so I can see the images. I got the "oops you're not a member" page At 01:05 PM 9/6/01 -0700, you wrote: >Two people on the yahoo hameltech group apparantly have a working device: >it wiggles continuously. No weird glowing or antigrav, just constant >vibration. This version of the "hamel" device is three stacked support >cones with ceramic magnets around the rims, stacked up in a surrounding >frame with magnets centering the cones. Photo links below. Here's the >message where "Tom" got his version to run constantly: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/message/5173 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/message/5185 > From: "Tom" > Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 7:54 pm > Subject: Device Start Up > > Procedure ! > Thinking always of the machines variations, I hadn't given much > thought to the possible different ways to start this thing. > I needed to be assured of the configuration before putting it into a > barrel. As it is now, cones in a frame,it just stands there and > vibrates. I like that ... a lot. > > After many crashes, trying to find the lightest weight that the > cones could be, I'm there. > > Start up is a (another) test of patience. It was too simple because > I wanted things now. > > With as light a load on the rejection magnets as can barely hold the > cones from crashing, slowly and incrementaly give it a little tiny bit > more. Wait. When it apears to be stopped, give it just a tiny bit more. > Wait. Etc, Etc. > > Took about an hour from dead to Dejed. > > Tom. > > PS Original Geometry See Files Tom2 > > > > >Here's one from a couple of days later: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/message/5233 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/messages/5261?viscount=-30 > From: "Tom" > Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 8:27 pm > Subject: Delighted and Confused ! > > The device is still running ... (this is the delightful part) > > only thing is (this is the confusing part) > > I slid the rejection magnet and mounting member off and away from > the machine to change the magnets as an expiriment ... over an hour ago > ... and it's still running , just fine. No Rejection Magnet ! > > I joked about Djed , but now it really looks like one. In the images > that I have seen (so far) the Djed is shown with just the cones > stacked on top of each other, no rejection magnet ... right ? > > I guess the rejection magnet is for starting this thing ONLY. > > Now I'm Having Fun ! > > Welcome Back DJED > > Tom. > > > >Images of his device: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image8.jpg >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image9.jpg >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image10.jpg >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image11.jpg >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/image12.jpg >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/ > > > >Apparently a "Brian Keohi" on that forum also got one of these to work >earlier. > >Report of an independant witness: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/message/5397 > From: ballantyne g... > Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 10:46 am > Subject: Start of a visit to Tom. > > Hi its Mac. Sorry to do what I did but I really was down to a few > minutes before I had a serious family problem on my hands. I am going > to post a brief account followed by a letter and pics. I haven't even > read the letters on the site yet. > > It turns out that Tom and I live close enough that a visit was not > a major problem. We exchanged phone numbers then agreed to meet in > the open at a place both of us knew. After the formalities of meeting > me in person were set aside I followed him to where his shop was > located and was allowed to view his machine. > > The machine is exactly as his photos in the files show. I thought > that I would see a machine that wobbled about an 1/8" and hummed > loudly. This not what was there. What it does do is a sort of a > shimmer ....... It is very hard to see it move at all . You think that > it is standing still....... and then you see movement After a while > you can see the movement is like a sort of wave.... less on the bottom > to a larger movement on the top of the top cone. The wave is not a > regular vibration but more like waves on a beach with little ripples > followed by larger movement........ but yes always moving....... At > one point I placed my finger light on the top cone and felt the > movement....... a THRUM is the closest word I can find to describe it. > > A large pulse with many small pulses inside of the large pulse all > occuring at slightly irregular times. 1-3 second intervals sometimes > 5 seconds . The small pulses reminded me of the time we were spinning > Alum. discs around here and holding magnets up against them . > Regardless of how fast the disc was spinning there was a vibration > and this is what the small pulses felt like. > > There was no vibration discernable on the base or oscillitor base. > There was no audible sound{There may have been but after playing > guitar in bars for fifteen years my hearing is not what it used to be] > > We didn't have much equipment to verify this other than our hands. > I would like to try some things wich are not subject to > interpretation or emotion ie. mech dial indicators, laser pointer,or > any other.....maybe a prox. sensor would show something that would > amplify the motion without touching the cones. Tom thinks that this > would be interesting. He may travel to my shop with the machine or I > may go to see him again and next time we will be armed with some test > equip. More to follow. Truly Mac. > > > > > >abaker wrote: > > billb wrote: > > > --- In free_energy yahoo.com, abaker@c... wrote: > > > > > > > Go check out the hameltech group. > > > > 2 people now have their devices continously running. > > > > > > > > Aaron Baker > > > > > > Might you know their names? That would help greatly > > > when going through all that email. Or might they > > > have photos on websites? > > > > If you look at the posts from "bill" and "Tom." > > Tom first got his running and then bill followed earlier this month. > > > > It oscillates only doesn't spin a shaft or something. > > > > >see below for much earlier, more incredible story (from 1999) > >((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L > > > > >from http://members.nbci.com/undergsci/steve45gd.html > >The Second Test Run > >First off I cut 4 vetilation holes in the top and the bottom of the >barrel. The ventilation holes were the size of a CD disc. I used that as a >template. The holes were alined top to bottom. The holes on the bottom >were kept 100% open while the holes on the top were cover. They were >revited so I could open them to different degrees. The small motor was >insulated and stabilized by 4 brackets to the inside of the barrel. A dry >cell battery was wired to the motor. A dry cell would burn out this >particular motor so a small rheostat ( kind of like a light dimmer ) was >attached to regulate the flow from the battery to the motor. The motor was >inside, with two wires extending outside by about 12 feet away. Stereo >wiring was used and seemed to work well. The rheostat would allow to >slowly increase the power to the motor and to increase the speed of the >motor. Around 9:00 p.m. the set-up was complete, with the wiring, battery >and rheostat about 12 feet away. A small T.V. was within 6 feet, which was >a mistake because it blew up. Anyway, the barrel was set on 6 bricks to >allow for vetilation. At 9:05 the motor was set into movement. At 9:10 >nothing was happening so I increased the speed of the motor using the >rheostat. At 9:15 the vibration began and at 9:17 the high pitch noise >began. Since this had happened in the past I was not too surprised. At >this time I decided to increase the speed of the motor using the rheostat. >I also decided to open (using attached wires ) the holes on the top. Upon >opening the holes on the top the vibration and noise decreased by, i would >guess 50%. I continued to view the barrel for the next 4 minutes. Not much >was happening except for the low grade vibration and the low level high >pitched noise which was getting rather annoying. I decided to increase the >motor speed just slightly more. I didn't want to blow the motor by juicing >it too much but I did want to increase the speed. Which I did. After 3 >minutes of increase speed the vibration stopped and the noise took on a >deeper quality of humming like. Then a orangish red glow came from the >vent holes. The whole drum DID NOT GLOW, just from the vent holes. Around >the time the glow occurred the lights in the house began to flicker and go >dull. The lights DID NOT GO OUT, but they did dim. I also noticed the >neighbor behind me, back porch light dimmed. The lights remained dim, >which caused my wife to come out and find out what the hell was going on. >She was there to witness the event. The barrel , much to my delight and >amazement rose about 6-8 ft off the bricks and hovered for about 30 >seconds at which time the strain on the wire caused the battery to >disconnect. When the battery disconnected the barrel elevated about >another 1 foot before coming crashing to the ground.Right before the >barrel started to levitate was when the T.V. exploded scaring the (blank >out of both of us). The dim house lights returned to normal brightness. I >was truly astonished by the whole event, not to mention that my wife >couldn't believe it and has now promised she won't make fun of me anymore. >I have gathered up everything a tucked it away in a double locked garage. >Not to long after going back into the house the phone rang. It was one of >our neighbors asking my wife if we had , had problems with our >electricity. My wife said we had ...but left it at that. If anyone would >care to share if they have had similar experiences , I would appreciate >it. Right now, I am not interested in why or how it worked. I just know >what I saw and what my wife saw with me, so I know I wasn't hallucinating. >She had no idea as to what the barrel was suppose to do, yet she saw it >rise and hover just like I did. So, I don't think it was group >hallucination either. Plus, I have a destroyed T.V. Any help or further >suggestions would be appreciated, as I don't know where to go from here. I >did try to video tape the event, but the video tape did not turn out for >some reason. One additional thing that I also noticed, right before the >barrel rose and while it was hovering. There was kind of a weird >distortion that appeared to extended about 4 inches from the barrel. I >can't really describe it, except it was like looking through air when it >is real hot, how things look all wavy like. BUT NOTHING WAS HOT !!! The >weird distortion is what Wilhelm would call Orgone energy and is photon >light. Did Hamel notice this? Has anyone else visualized this? Any one who >has ever seen a ufo has seen this light. Someone let me know, please. >Thanks >Steve _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From herman college.antioch-college.edu Wed Sep 5 16:56:43 2001 Received: from college.antioch-college.edu (antioch-college.edu [192.131.123.11]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05608; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:56:36 -0700 Received: from localhost (herman localhost) by college.antioch-college.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f8603rO04070; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:03:53 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex cc: William Beaty , Jerry Subject: The Barker Process Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: OK to post Old experiment Briefly, Replication of Barker Patent Radioactive remediation work. We used a radioactive mineral speciment from a geology laboratory. This was carefully broken and two fragments, about 2 mm roughly spherical that appeared uniform and were radioactive about the same amount and sounded like a really hot and loaded popcorn popper full of cooking popcorn were used. This was, as described by a geologist, a periclase and the mineral was though to be substituted some with radioactive strontium or radium. The Same GM, or Gieger-Muller counter was used for the whole study and this counter is a an inexpensive lab typee counter andis sensitive to beta, gamma and short X ray. The counter was placed inside the Van de Graff abbreviated VDG, sphere with the sample about 1 inch away. The GM counter used a small thin wall 1 inch long by 3/8 inch tube excited at about 850 volts. The belt and rollers were removed from the VDG and it was powered with an external 40 KV bech power supply made by the Glassman company. The Negative HV lead went up the tube which supports the VDG sphere. This lead is connected to the Inside of the sphere. This causes the inside of the sphere to be Zero volts and the outside to be Negative 40 Kilo volts, or 40 KV..... a hole 1/2 in diameter is made in the side of the VDG sphere. The wall of the sphere is less than 0.010 inches.... this makes an intense gradient of Zero volts to Negative 40 KV in less than 0.010 inches. The sample is placed RIGHT NEXT TO THE EDGE OF THE GRADIENT and is held in a thin piece of 2 mil (1/1,000 inch thick) polyethylene plastic film. A little dielectric shelf made of cardboard, paper tape and wood was constructed inside the sphere to support the GM counter and the sample. The low voltage power supply wires for the GM counter go up inside the tube which supports the sphere also. This allows us to turn on the counter at any time and take a reading without ever opening the sphere or disturbing the experiment. The HV wires are silicone elastomer insulated to 60,000 V The Positive 40 KV return lead of the power supply was connected to a 3 inch diameter aluminum sphere on a glass rod about 18 inches long and supported horizontally by a ring stand and positioned about 4 inches away from the hole, directly across from it to further define the field. 1) With the sample in place the GM counter was energized and the typical "popcorn" was heard. Note it is easy to record this with a tape recorder. 2) 40 KV was employed for 14 hours. NOTE: ONE EXPOSURE ONLY was used and no further excitation of HV was used at any time ever again for the rest of the test. 3) Over the course of 11 months the counts were taken and at 11 months the sample was about the same as background counts. At one point one of the witnesses thought the GM counter sounded as though the sample must have been removed....but the whole set up was still sealed and the sample was in place. It worked fine. We know now what to do to make the process work better, but would like to have someone replicate. The problem is that, so far *Everyone* we have contacted either wants to or has CHANGED the set up! On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Orris Dent wrote: > > > > >From: John Schnurer > >To: Orris Dent > >Subject: Re: The Barker Process > >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:34:23 -0400 (EDT) > > > >ny > > > > > > Dear Orris, > > > > > > Before you give the Van De Graff away: > > > ><> > > I will probably get back to you with details tonight, from home. But first > one question for you: Can you please describe an experiment that the > Barker(s) performed that convinced you that their process really worked? > Regards. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 19:35:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA04493; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:34:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:34:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:34:35 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: a Hamel device runs continuously In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010906203542.00a23750 pop.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"sjhfn.0.761.z83cx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Charles Ford wrote: > Bill: > > It is good to see some success now and then... > > I noticed the thread "Delighted and confused" > Could only mean one thing :-) > > > I gues I will have to join so I can see the images. I got the "oops you're > not a member" page I joined lots of these yahoo lists, but turned off the email flow (click on "view messages via the website" or something similar.) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 19:40:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA06501; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:39:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:39:41 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer , FZNIDARSIC aol.com, Schnurer Subject: Re: Question for Frank on Podkletnov experiment Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 22:48:31 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01090622483100.01809 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA06472 Resent-Message-ID: <"Co8IN2.0.Qb1.iD3cx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wednesday 05 September 2001 16:55, John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Frank, > > > I am a little confused ...you may have been typing fast..... > > (really I am a LOT confused! ....but zecky Joe dooncha know!) > > Is there a typo here...below? > > > I will flag it..... > > On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 9/5/01 4:21:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes: > > > > > > > deduct from the Newton law of gravitation which is simply "saying that > > > gravitational fields interact to each others" rather than saying > > > "gravitational field interact on a object". > > > > Hamdi think of this. The photons from a distant star trave to your eye. > > They have been traveling side by side for eons. Did they attract each other. > > No! If they did the light would arrive in lumps. You would see flashes not > > a start. > > > > In gravitational light bending the suns gravity pulls upon a photon. The > > photon has a momentum E/c. This momentum was altered. Momentum is always > > conserved. The phonton must have pulled back upon the sun. It appears the > > photon in this case has gravity. > > > > --------FLAG------- > > BELOW: phonon? Photon? Which-what? Please. > > > What it the difference. The phonon traveling around has changed it momentum > > with respect to an external observer. This change in momentum produced the > > effective gravity associeated with the photon. > > > > again > > > > gravi field - G(dp/dt)/ccr > > > > I have found that this process is universal. Restraining forces (dp/dt) > > within matter gererate the gravitation field of matter. > > > > I hope this helps. > > > > Frank Znidarsic We can speculate endlessly on this and ultimately come up with similar logical constructs to the old 'how many angels on the head of a pin' debate. Point is: We do not really know!" Having said that, I take pleasure in adding that inasmuch as so many fundamental forces have a partical of some sort associated with them, why not gravity. Maybe a smaller partical. Maybe smaller than a quark, having an effect on space and time as well. Possibly we should look a little harder at the makeup of gluons and at the left and right hand rule relationships among the other fundamental forces to see a missing symettry. Standing Bear > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 19:47:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA10588; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:46:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:46:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:46:42 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Keith Nagel cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: a Hamel device runs continuously In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"wIz0u2.0.Lb2.LK3cx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Keith Nagel wrote: > I wonder how well isolated from the ambient vibration > this device is? If I'm not mistaken it's clamped to a > milk crate which is resting on ?????? Oh no! LOL! This sounds like the "Giza Generator" article, where the Cheops pyramid supposedly is a very high-Q resonator tuned to a common earthquake frequency. (See? weird science aways has a comeback.) A chain of masses hinged together, with each one smaller than the preceding neighbors, that could act like an impedance matcher where large forces with tiny motions are transformed into smaller forces with larger motions. Like cracking a whip, or like the "Astro Blaster" toy: http://demoroom.physics.ncsu.edu/orders/demos/531.html ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 19:47:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA10867; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:47:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:47:02 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: a Hamel device runs continuously Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 12:46:36 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <27dgpt4dcedjq11c2pccn30ja3q8hstplj 4ax.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20010906203542.00a23750@pop.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010906203542.00a23750 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA10840 Resent-Message-ID: <"OM546.0.gf2.bK3cx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Charles Ford's message of Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:37:56 -0500: >Bill: > >It is good to see some success now and then... > >I noticed the thread "Delighted and confused" >Could only mean one thing :-) > > >I gues I will have to join so I can see the images. I got the "oops you're >not a member" page [snip] When you do, be sure to take a look at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/Djed%20with%20geometry.jpg ! Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 20:14:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA21948; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:13:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:13:59 -0700 Sender: hoyt eskimo.com Message-ID: <3B983B6D.1CB68B1 home.com> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:13:49 -0700 From: "Hoyt Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Question for Frank on Podkletnov experiment References: <01090622483100.01809@tyrannosaur> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-J7-P3.0.sM5.sj3cx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: > > > > > > > In gravitational light bending the suns gravity pulls upon a > photon. The > > > photon has a momentum E/c. This momentum was altered. > Momentum is always > > > conserved. The phonton must have pulled back upon the sun. > It appears the > > > photon in this case has gravity. > > > > > > > --------FLAG------- > > > > BELOW: phonon? Photon? Which-what? Please. > > > > > What it the difference. The phonon traveling around has > changed it momentum > > > with respect to an external observer. This change in > momentum produced the > > > effective gravity associeated with the photon. > > We can speculate endlessly on this and ultimately come up > with similar logical constructs to the old 'how many angels > on the head of a pin' debate. Point is: We do not really know!" > Having said that, I take pleasure in adding that inasmuch as > so many fundamental forces have a partical of some sort > associated with them, why not gravity. Maybe a smaller partical. > Maybe smaller than a quark, having an effect on space and time > as well. Possibly we should look a little harder at the makeup > of gluons and at the left and right hand rule relationships among > the other fundamental forces to see a missing symettry. > No need to speculate. The answers are here, you just don't want to hear them: http://www.rsystem.org/rs/cwkvk/deflect.htm Photons have no mass and do not pull on anything. Quarks, gluons, magnetic monopoles, gravity waves, black holes are all nonsense. Hoyt Stearns Phoenix From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 20:34:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA27943; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:33:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:33:36 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: a Hamel device runs continuously Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:41:16 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <27dgpt4dcedjq11c2pccn30ja3q8hstplj 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"Jm-EX3.0.Pq6.G04cx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sure looks like a Hamel do-dad... Although when you take out the lines added by the poster the thing is clearly an ankh. What's this mean to you Robin? K. -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:47 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: a Hamel device runs continuously In reply to Charles Ford's message of Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:37:56 -0500: >Bill: > >It is good to see some success now and then... > >I noticed the thread "Delighted and confused" >Could only mean one thing :-) > > >I gues I will have to join so I can see the images. I got the "oops you're >not a member" page [snip] When you do, be sure to take a look at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/Djed%20with%20geometry .jpg ! Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 20:41:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA30037; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:41:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:41:25 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010906224633.00a25670 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:48:01 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: a Hamel device runs continuously In-Reply-To: <27dgpt4dcedjq11c2pccn30ja3q8hstplj 4ax.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20010906203542.00a23750 pop.mail.yahoo.com> <4.2.0.58.20010906203542.00a23750 pop.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"rYqKE3.0.7L7.a74cx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:46 PM 9/7/01 +1000, you wrote: >When you do, be sure to take a look at >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hameltech/files/Tom%202/Djed%20with%20geometr >y.jpg >! > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Robin: Thanks. Does this qualify the hole bunch for the crackpot index? :-) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 23:14:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA11508; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:14:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:14:11 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Subject: Re: a Hamel device runs continuously Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 16:13:17 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <27dgpt4dcedjq11c2pccn30ja3q8hstplj 4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA11477 Resent-Message-ID: <"lZS2v3.0.kp2.oM6cx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Keith Nagel's message of Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:41:16 -0400: >Sure looks like a Hamel do-dad... > >Although when you take out the lines >added by the poster the thing is clearly >an ankh. > >What's this mean to you Robin? I have been wondering for a long time what a DJED was supposed to represent. At least this sort of makes sense. I used to think it was a stack of high voltage insulators. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 6 23:15:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA11518; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:14:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:14:11 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: a Hamel device runs continuously Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 16:14:16 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <4.2.0.58.20010906203542.00a23750 pop.mail.yahoo.com> <4.2.0.58.20010906203542.00a23750@pop.mail.yahoo.com> <27dgpt4dcedjq11c2pccn30ja3q8hstplj@4ax.com> <4.2.0.58.20010906224633.00a25670@p op.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010906224633.00a25670 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA11484 Resent-Message-ID: <"OVM_x3.0.up2.pM6cx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Charles Ford's message of Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:48:01 -0500: [snip] >Thanks. Does this qualify the hole bunch for the crackpot index? :-) Everyone has their own crackpot index. I'm sure you have yours. > > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 00:20:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA26384; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:19:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:19:48 -0700 Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 03:27:05 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Robin van Spaandonk cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: a Hamel device runs continuously In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"rzENL2.0.5S6.JK7cx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: WELL ...What does DJED mean? On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Keith Nagel's message of Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:41:16 -0400: > > >Sure looks like a Hamel do-dad... > > > >Although when you take out the lines > >added by the poster the thing is clearly > >an ankh. > > > >What's this mean to you Robin? > > I have been wondering for a long time what a DJED was supposed to > represent. At least this sort of makes sense. I used to think it was a > stack of high voltage insulators. > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 02:03:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA15373; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 02:02:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 02:02:42 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:02:30 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: a Hamel device runs continuously Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"pTM1p.0.7m3.nq8cx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I don't know how they get any significance from drawing lines on that ankh figure (reminds me of Hoagland's helter-skelter lines drawn all over Cydonia pictures). But the bottom thingy is well known - it's the Egyptian djed, and it *is* (by appearances at least) the Hamel-thing they're building. I too think it's a motion multiplier amplifying small vibrations. But I haven't tried it, so what do I know? But he last 'working' Hamel device people were replicating was the one that picked up motions from your hand that were small enough to make you think that the device was running itself. This one looks like a much more sensitive version, with a new source of motion. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >Sure looks like a Hamel do-dad... > >Although when you take out the lines >added by the poster the thing is clearly >an ankh. > >What's this mean to you Robin? > >K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 06:48:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA23586; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 06:45:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 06:45:03 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Hoyt Stearns Jr." Subject: Re: Question for Frank on Podkletnov experiment Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:53:59 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <01090622483100.01809@tyrannosaur> <3B983B6D.1CB68B1@home.com> In-Reply-To: <3B983B6D.1CB68B1 home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01090709535900.01207 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA23559 Resent-Message-ID: <"Nw9DO.0.Nm5.VzCcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 06 September 2001 20:13, Hoyt Stearns Jr. wrote: > Standing Bear wrote: > > > > > > > > > > In gravitational light bending the suns gravity pulls upon a > > photon. The > > > > photon has a momentum E/c. This momentum was altered. > > Momentum is always > > > > conserved. The phonton must have pulled back upon the sun. > > It appears the > > > > photon in this case has gravity. > > > > > > > > > > --------FLAG------- > > > > > > BELOW: phonon? Photon? Which-what? Please. > > > > > > > What it the difference. The phonon traveling around has > > changed it momentum > > > > with respect to an external observer. This change in > > momentum produced the > > > > effective gravity associeated with the photon. > > > > > We can speculate endlessly on this and ultimately come up > > with similar logical constructs to the old 'how many angels > > on the head of a pin' debate. Point is: We do not really know!" > > Having said that, I take pleasure in adding that inasmuch as > > so many fundamental forces have a partical of some sort > > associated with them, why not gravity. Maybe a smaller partical. > > Maybe smaller than a quark, having an effect on space and time > > as well. Possibly we should look a little harder at the makeup > > of gluons and at the left and right hand rule relationships among > > the other fundamental forces to see a missing symettry. > > > > No need to speculate. The answers are here, you just > don't want to hear them: > > http://www.rsystem.org/rs/cwkvk/deflect.htm > > Photons have no mass and do not pull on anything. > > Quarks, gluons, magnetic monopoles, gravity waves, > black holes are all nonsense. > > Hoyt Stearns > Phoenix > Before calling validated research nonsense and then parrotting the Einstein religion about 'c' and 'GR', which new research into gravitational waves may just prove to be 'nonsense' within a month, try looking into some material for your proofs that are newer than 1985! I have some difficulty with your d1 value that your website claims is the outer hard limit of the gravitational force no matter what the mass size containing the particals giving rise to that force. You do not calculate that value and rely on our faith to accept it at face value with neither question nor debate. C'mon, were physicists here or try to be! Standing Bear > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 06:55:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA27388; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 06:54:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 06:54:55 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B97B321.15AF350 ix.netcom.com> References: <3B968754.1B7D26F6 ix.netcom.com> <005501c136e4$c0e597c0$5856ccd1@asus> <3B97B321.15AF350 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:54:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Arata Cathodes and tritium Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA27371 Resent-Message-ID: <"qA8Fz1.0.sh6.l6Dcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms wrote; > The highest concentration of D+ occurs >in the palladium particles lying next to the inner surface of the container. >This region benefits from what is called "spillover" hydrogen. Only this >material would be active. On this point, Arata agrees. The only unknown is >how thick this active region might be. Why should the only Pd that is active be on the inner surface of the container? > > **packed** with a palladium nanopowder. Arata tried different powder sizes >> and got best results with a powder whose smallest particles were about 40 >> microns on a side, The Pd nanopowder reminds me of a patent that I came across while researching Chris Arnold's patent, one of the patents he sited. It involves the production of metal powders with a plasma. The government paid for it's development. Would this be a good way to produce a fine powder with crystaline structure? >just a few hundred atoms in each direction, with a highly >> irregular surface. After a run, what were originally crystalline forms >> developed rounded surfaces, as if by partial melting, as seen in > > photomicrographs. I agree that there were some very intense reactions going on, having seen pictures of the metal powder following the reaction in question, and considering that it was submersed in water when the event occurred, that is one intense reaction. Another discussion that came up in this thread was the production of 10 15 atoms. This sounds like a lot until I remembered a question I had. If you had all 6,000,000,000 people now alive counting atoms, and they worked 24 - 7, counting 1 atom / second. How long would it take them to count out the atoms, 6.023 X 10 23, in 1 mole? I calculate the following: 60 seconds / minute, X 60 minutes / hour, X 24 hours / day, X 365 days / year = 3.153 X 10 7 seconds per year X 6 X 109 people, = 1.891 X 1017 atoms / year. So to increase the exponent by one number would require an increasing number of years as follows: 10 18, 10 years, 10 19 100 years, 10 20 1000 years, 10 21 10,000 years, 10 22 100,000 years, 10 23 1,000,000 years so I calculate that the task would take 3.185 X 10 7 or 31,850,000 years, or would it take "just" 3,185,000 years? > Very intense reactions were going on. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 08:21:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25920; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:21:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:21:22 -0700 Message-ID: <065f01c137c9$ab288c40$f959ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3B968754.1B7D26F6@ix.netcom.com> <005501c136e4$c0e597c0$5856ccd1@asus> <3B97B321.15AF350@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Arata Cathodes and tritium Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:18:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"29ksh.0.vK6.oNEcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Ed Storms wrote; > > > The highest concentration of D+ occurs > >in the palladium particles lying next to the inner surface of the container. > >This region benefits from what is called "spillover" hydrogen. Only this > >material would be active. On this point, Arata agrees. The only unknown is > >how thick this active region might be. > > Why should the only Pd that is active be on the inner surface of the container? The activity is at or on the highly fractured surface of the Pd nanopowder packed into the cathode. The D+ ions migrate from the inner surface of the solid metal cathode shell to those particles in direct contact, and then to others in direct contact with those particles, by the "spillover" process, until a reactive site is found. Depending on the process conditions, this migration may be relatively slow. Since the migration is inward, it is natural that the tritium production would be near the inner surface of the shell. Diffusion of tritium, once produced, can go both ways. Therefore even though the tritium is produced in the nanopowder, by the time the cell is analyzed, some of it may have diffused back into the solid metal shell, but the highest concentrations will be found at the inner wall. > > > > **packed** with a palladium nanopowder. Arata tried different powder sizes > >> and got best results with a powder whose smallest particles were about 40 > >> microns on a side,> > > The Pd nanopowder reminds me of a patent that I came across while > researching Chris Arnold's patent, one of the patents he sited. It > involves the production of metal powders with a plasma. The > government paid for it's development. Would this be a good way to > produce a fine powder with crystalline structure? Nanopowders are produced on a commercial scale as catalysts. I believe one was is an arc under water. Vaporized metal particles are immediately quenched, producing very fine particles. > > >just a few hundred atoms in each direction, with a highly > >> irregular surface. After a run, what were originally crystalline forms > >> developed rounded surfaces, as if by partial melting, as seen in > > > photomicrographs. > > I agree that there were some very intense reactions going on, having > seen pictures of the metal powder following the reaction in question, > and considering that it was submersed in water when the event > occurred, that is one intense reaction. The cathode capsule is immersed in water. The capsule is welded shut. The powder inside is dry. The powder does show signs of partial melting. > > Another discussion that came up in this thread was the production of > 10 15 atoms. This sounds like a lot until I remembered a question I > had. > > > > Very intense reactions were going on. Yes. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 09:20:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23714; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:19:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:19:20 -0700 Message-ID: <001801c137b9$491b7c20$e9181ad8 oemcomputer> From: "bruce meland" To: , "Ron Brandt" , Cc: , "John Bryan" , , "Remy C." References: <200109040155.VAA24192 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Dennis Lee Show. Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:21:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"Z_uwc3.0.No5.7EFcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I witnessed the motor-generator testing at Portland Double Tree Hotel, where several electricitian types tested with their cumulative ampmeters, the power coming into and out of the Sundance generator, which was hooked up to and powered by a a 20 HP Baldor 3 phase motor, not the premanent magnet hummingbird motor, which was apparently pulled for security resasons, so Dennis said. Dennis did not in my oppinion give enough time to the tester guys to make a complete independent testing evaluation. I saw no evidence of Confidential Technology's rotating transformer at the Portland Oregon show to a over packed ballroom of about 1000 curious spectators. When Dennis gets talking, you are sure to be in for an extended show. It was supposed to be over at 11:30 PM and I left at 12:30 am and he was sitll pitching his North American Special Discount Associates Club,(can purchase alll of his products at wholesale) and membership in the International Tesla Electric Co. which will allow one the opportunity to get 26,000 watts of free electricity when the units come available.. All the above privileges for $15. Bruce Meland, editor www.electrifyingtimes.com ----- Original Message ----- From: thomas malloy To: Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. > Eugene Mallove's posting on this reminds me of a question I asked him > and never got a reply. Jack Carey said that you had tested the motor > generator that Dennis Lee has. What did you find? > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 09:23:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA24942; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:22:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:22:07 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010907122016.00a9f508 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 12:22:14 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: New book about ethics crisis in Big Science Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"QcgiH3.0.W56.lGFcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: D. Greenberg, "Science, Money, and Politics: Political Triumph and Ethical Erosion." I have not read this book, but it is reviewed in the September 2001 issue of Scientific American, p. 98, and it sounds interesting. The title of the review is, "bloated, whiny and self-important." That sounds right! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 10:29:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA19098; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:27:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:27:41 -0700 Message-Id: <200109071727.NAA19479 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Dennis Lee Show. Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:18:22 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" , "Ron Brandt" , "Jack Carey" cc: , "John Bryan" , "bruce meland" , "Remy C." , "Ken Rauen" , "Scott Chubb" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"9hcYU2.0.Kg4.CEGcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bruce, >I witnessed the motor-generator testing at Portland Double Tree Hotel, where >several electricitian types tested with their cumulative ampmeters, the >power coming into and out of the Sundance generator, which was hooked up >to and powered by a a 20 HP Baldor 3 phase motor, not the premanent magnet >hummingbird motor, which was apparently pulled for security resasons, so >Dennis said. Dennis Lee made that same remark about "security issues" that would arise IF the motor was coupled to the nearly 100% efficient generator, when he spoke recently in Bedford, NH. Our lab manager Ken Rauen and I attended his presentation -- lasting four-hours(!) -- which in my opinion was a mixed bag of reality, misrepresentation of common phenomena (such as magnetic drag produced by eddy currents in a copper tube through which a magnet was dropped), exaggeration of the utility and temperature of Brown's gas, and an outline of what I believe to be a preposterous witnessing/marketing plan. If he has a 5/1 O/U motor, as he has claimed, he should instantly couple it to said generator and demonstrate it and allow people at the meetings to bring their equipment to test the motor/generator -- or just to view the self-sustaining combo. That way, his claims would achieve validation. At the very leat, he should allow private testing of said motor at his facility. I have heard of no outside parties who have tested said motor. He has a big ad in Newsweek this week -- full page! -- showing *a* motor and the generator coupled. > Dennis did not in my oppinion give enough time to the >tester guys to make a complete independent testing evaluation. There was plenty of time in Bedford, NH to check his generator (we were not told in advance that we could bring equipment), but who cares about a highly efficient electrical generator! >I saw no >evidence of Confidential Technology's rotating transformer at the Portland >Oregon show to a over packed ballroom of about 1000 curious spectators. We here at NERL have found that indeed inventor Wayne Cochran's single phase motor can be made to run a three- phase motor, when proper capacitor augmentation is done. We have the set up here right now, but is decidedly NOT over unity. We had earlier asked J. Carey et al to provide us with the "special motor" that Cochran claims is essential. First they said they would send said motor, then manager J. Carey got in the loop and started bad-mouthing Infinite Energy in appropriately when all we were trying to do was validate their experiment -- as they said they wanted us to. We still stand ready to make any modifications that inventor Wayne Cochran may suggest -- and if O/U were achieved, that would be wonderful -- if that is in fact what they are claiming. >When Dennis gets talking, you are sure to be in for an extended show. Yes, indeed! I agree with lots of what he says about the establishment blindness, government stupidity, etc., but I do not buy for one minute his implication that HE was responsible for mandating electric power production deregulation, or that very bad things would instantly happen to him IF he coupled the alleged O/U Hummingbird motor to the generator. We have asked Mr. Lee and his representatives -- one, in particular, whom I know in New Hampshire, who is a good man (a professor of environmental science no less!) --if we could test the Hummingbird motor at BWT's place in New Jersey. We are waiting for a reply. I do not expect that they will permit such a test, based on what Lee has already stated, but it is worth a try. > It was >supposed to be over at 11:30 PM and I left at 12:30 am and he was sitll >pitching his North American Special Discount Associates Club,(can purchase >alll of his products at wholesale) and membership in the International >Tesla Electric Co. which will allow one the opportunity to get 26,000 watts >of free electricity when the units come available.. All the above privileges >for $15. Bruce Meland, editor www.electrifyingtimes.com I have no problem with Lee show casing various items, some of which are real and others just exaggerated. After all, the US Government spends billions of dollars every year show casing absolute garbage -- such as its hot fusion program and much else -- including renewable energy that should either stand on its own feet or not be supported at all, subsidies for hydrocarbon fuels, etc. Lee certainly has every right to go around getting money for his entertaining performances - via smallish cost things such as books and other gadgets, membership fees, etc.. Movies stars and rock musicians do, so why not Lee? His marketing plans make no sense in many respects -- especially the promise that various "dealers" are going to be able to get money back by selling electricity back to the power companies. (When everyone realizes that electricity can be generated for free -- no fuel cost, the price of ALL electricity will quickly drop.) I do hope, however, that he will decide to allow public or private testing of his hummingbird motor. He should know that others in the world have self-sustaining motors already (e.g. the Correas -- see my letter of testimonial, and Uri Soudak's letter at www.aetherometry.com). I am quite sure now that since aether energy is a multifaceted new physics, which can be verified in lab experiments using leaf-electroscopes and thermometers) that many others will be entering the marketplace in due course. For now, it is quite informative to examine the physics of said aether as revealed by the initial experiments of Wilhelm Reich, which are now given far more substantial grounding and theoretical explanation by the Correas. By the way, anyone can visit the Wilhelm Reich museum in Rangely, Maine (I did so last weekend) and see videos of the Orgone (aether) motor of Reich under test in the 1950s. Quite similar, but far less potent, than what I observed in the Correa lab in 2000 and 2001. Orgonon is beautiful place and the museum of Reich's work is most inspiring and remarkable. When I think of the travesty of the FDA persecution of this great scientist it makes me sick --as sick and fed up as I am about DOE's persecution of cold fusion. This country has a lot to account for in the past actions of some of its supposedly beneficial agencies. Reich has the "honor" of having been perhaps the only person to have had his books burned in Nazi Germany, the Stalinist Soviet Union, and in the United States. Where was the ACLU when Reich's books were officially burned and orgone accumulators smashed as a result of FDA actions that led to the court order? Since a rather silly discussion of words and names has been going on in this forum recently, let me tell you the two words or phrases that in my view are going to stick -- and ultimately destroy the current farce called the physics estabslishment. In the order in which I *personally* came to be firmly convinced of their reality: 1. Cold fusion 2. Aether energy Best wishes, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine/New Energy Research Lab Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 www.infinite-energy.com editor infinite-energy.com Ph: 603-228-4516 Fx: 603-224-5975 >----- Original Message ----- >From: thomas malloy >To: >Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 3:58 PM >Subject: Re: Cold fusion is real. > > >> Eugene Mallove's posting on this reminds me of a question I asked him >> and never got a reply. Jack Carey said that you had tested the motor >> generator that Dennis Lee has. What did you find? Bruce, that is explained above. Gene Mallove >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 11:30:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12935; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:30:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:30:08 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 11:30:14 -0800 Message-Id: <999887414.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> To: , Subject: Re: Arata Cathodes and tritium Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"xzghn2.0.x93.m8Hcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------Included Message---------- > Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:54:04 -0500 > From: "thomas malloy" > Reply-To: > To: > Subject: Re: Arata Cathodes and tritium > > Ed Storms wrote; > > > The highest concentration of D+ occurs in the palladium particles > > lying next to the inner surface of the container. This region > > benefits from what is called "spillover" hydrogen. Only this > > material would be active. On this point, Arata agrees. The only > >unknown is how thick this active region might be. > > Why should the only Pd that is active be on the inner surface of the container? Further... 1) How is this known? 2) Would futher loading, so that the Pd inside becomes deuterium saturated, cause the inner Pd to start fusion? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 12:58:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27181; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:57:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:57:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3B992762.4DC72B6D bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 16:00:34 -0400 From: Terry Blanton Organization: . X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Hungarian Scientists: Dune Spots are Mars Life Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"igpKH3.0.be6.4RIcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fresh claims about life on Mars http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/09/07/mars.hungary.life/index.html BUDAPEST, Hungary -- Hungarian scientists claimed they've found evidence of living organisms on Mars after sifting through 60,000 photographs taken by NASA's Mars Global Surveyor satellite. Three scientists say the pictures show evidence of thousands of dark dune spots, similar to organisms found near Earth's South Pole, in craters in Mars' snowy southern polar region. "These spots indicate that on the surface below the ice there are such organisms which, absorbing solar energy, are able to melt the ice and create conditions of life for themselves," biologist and team member Tibor Ganti told Reuters. But a note posted on the Global Surveyor Web site in June, before the Hungarian findings were reported, cautions against jumping to conclusions about the spots. "Despite the "sensation" one gets when looking at pictures of spotted, defrosting martian dunes (i.e., the sensation that these images show some form of life, like vegetation, growing on Mars) these features are a normal, common manifestation of the springtime defrosting process on Mars," the message reads. Hungarians: Organisms are frozen The Hungarian researcher say that during harsh martian winters, when temperatures plummet to minus 200 degrees Celsius (minus 328 Fahrenheit), these so-called Mars Surface Organisms are protected by a thick blanket of ice which then melts as the planet's early summer temperatures climb to just above zero. Large grey dark dune spots -- with a diameter ranging from 10 meters (33 ft) to several hundred meters -- are left behind. The Hungarians claim the spots are dried-out organisms which can reactivate themselves once the colder, icy season sets in again. Agustin Chicarro, one of the leaders of the European Space Agency's (ESA) Mars Express program, which plans to launch a Mars probe in 2003, recently visited Hungary to follow up the team's findings. "We make proposals (to the ESA) on where and what sort of measurements should be made and when, how and what should be photographed," Ganti said, adding that no final ESA decision had been taken yet on Hungarian participation in the next probe. Ganti said that if the Hungarian team, also involving biologist Eors Szathmary and astronomer Andras Horvath, was right, this could be the first real proof of life on Mars. "This would be life. These would be living organisms and this would be the first find of living organisms on another planet," he said. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 13:55:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20898; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:49:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:49:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3B9932D4.D6759CEF verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 23:49:24 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hungarian Scientists: Dune Spots are Mars Life References: <3B992762.4DC72B6D bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mhTwK1.0.N65.IBJcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Terry, Isn't this picture that NASA show as a proof these formations are NOT vegetation? See http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/msss/camera/images/dune_defrost_6_2001/index.html Look like a comedy or poor journalism. Terry Blanton wrote: > > Fresh claims about life on Mars > > http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/09/07/mars.hungary.life/index.html > > BUDAPEST, Hungary -- Hungarian scientists claimed they've found > evidence of living organisms on Mars after sifting through 60,000 > photographs taken by NASA's Mars Global Surveyor satellite. > > Regards, hamdi From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 14:24:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA03229; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:22:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:22:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3B993ABC.CF4440CF ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 14:23:08 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Sep 07, 2001] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0zxIZ1.0.No.kgJcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Sep 07, 2001 Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 17:04:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 7 Sep 01 Washington, DC 1. FREE ELECTRICITY! YES FOLKS, DENNIS LEE IS STILL AT IT. A full-page ad in Newsweek for Sep 10 announces a 50-state tour to demonstrate a perpetual motion machine and many other amazing inventions. The name "Dennis Lee," which is well known to the Attorneys General of several states, did not appear in the ad, but this is his show. We first saw him in 1997 in Hackensack, NJ. An NBC News camera crew intended to film a demonstration of a perpetual motion machine that ran on ambient heat. An NBC producer asked us to join them, but the machine failed(WN 18 Jul 97). Two years later, ABC News asked us to go to Lee's show in Columbus, Ohio, one stop in a 45-state tour announced in a full page ad in USA Today. This perpetual motion machine relied on "permanent magnet motors" and the "Fourth Law of Motion," but Lee didn't actually demonstrate it. "If you show a perpetual motion machine," he explained, "they will put you in jail" (WN 1 Oct 99). He's done some hard time for his scams, but the failure of government agencies to stop such obvious fraud is discouraging. 2. DIETARY SUPPLEMENTS: YES FOLKS, THEY'RE STILL SELLING EPHEDRA. A year ago, WN reported a UCSF Study showing that ephedra, a popular herbal supplement, has serious side effects. The active ingredient is ephedrine, which is closely related to the street drug "ecstacy." Ephedra is sometimes advertized on the net as "herbal ecstacy." The only thing that has happened since is that fatalities are up. Yesterday, the Public Citizen Health Research Group petitioned the Food and Drug Administration to ban dietary supplements containing ephedra. Good plan, except the FDA has tried for years in the courts to ban the stimulant. They are blocked by Congress and the 1994 Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act, passed in response to a huge lobbying campaign by the supplement industry. It exempts "natural" supplements from requirements to test for safety, purity or effectiveness. 3. NUCLEAR NON-PROLIFERATION: WE TRADED IT FOR MISSILE DEFENSE? The imperative of American defense policy for half-a-century has been to limit the spread of nuclear weapons, but we have now turned our back on the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, and about to abandoned the ABM treaty, and the administration is reassuring China that if they'll soften opposition to NMD, we'll be happy to share test results and we won't mind if they build a bigger missile flee and resume testing. 4. ONE YEAR AFTER BOB'S ENCOUNTER WITH A TREE, WN STILL LIVES. The cost of writing What's New was for more than 18 years borne solely by the American Physical Society. This year, APS made cuts to Public Information. The Physics Department at the University of Maryland has now graciously offered to help support WN by making the writing of it part of Bob's teaching assignment. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and the UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the University or the American Physical Society, but they should be. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 14:29:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05312; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:27:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:27:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3B993C6D.D2824EBF bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 17:30:21 -0400 From: Terry Blanton Organization: . X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hungarian Scientists: Dune Spots are Mars Life References: <3B992762.4DC72B6D bellsouth.net> <3B9932D4.D6759CEF@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JkdQm.0.qI1.ElJcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: hamdi ucar wrote: > > Hi Terry, > > Isn't this picture that NASA show as a proof these formations are NOT vegetation? > > See http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/msss/camera/images/dune_defrost_6_2001/index.html LOL! Yes, it's the same one! > Look like a comedy or poor journalism. Or both! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 17:54:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27195; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 17:53:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 17:53:42 -0700 Message-Id: <200109080053.UAA18953 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Hungarian Scientists: Dune Spots are Mars Life Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:44:27 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"ae8232.0.ne6.MmMcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: All, Great! The "dalmation" is back!! That's the white dunes with black spots we were all discussing some Moons ago! These guys had given a scientific paper earlier this summer. Gene Mallove >Fresh claims about life on Mars > >http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/09/07/mars.hungary.life/index.html > >BUDAPEST, Hungary -- Hungarian scientists claimed they've found >evidence of living organisms on Mars after sifting through 60,000 >photographs taken by NASA's Mars Global Surveyor satellite. > >Three scientists say the pictures show evidence of thousands of >dark dune spots, similar to organisms found near Earth's South >Pole, in craters in Mars' snowy southern polar region. > >"These spots indicate that on the surface below the ice there are >such organisms which, absorbing solar energy, are able to melt >the ice and create conditions of life for themselves," biologist >and team member Tibor Ganti told Reuters. > >But a note posted on the Global Surveyor Web site in June, before >the Hungarian findings were reported, cautions against jumping to >conclusions about the spots. > >"Despite the "sensation" one gets when looking at pictures of >spotted, defrosting martian dunes (i.e., the sensation that these >images show some form of life, like vegetation, growing on Mars) >these features are a normal, common manifestation of the >springtime defrosting process on Mars," the message reads. > >Hungarians: Organisms are frozen > >The Hungarian researcher say that during harsh martian winters, >when temperatures plummet to minus 200 degrees Celsius (minus 328 >Fahrenheit), these so-called Mars Surface Organisms are protected >by a thick blanket of ice which then melts as the planet's early >summer temperatures climb to just above zero. > >Large grey dark dune spots -- with a diameter ranging from 10 >meters (33 ft) to several hundred meters -- are left behind. > >The Hungarians claim the spots are dried-out organisms which can >reactivate themselves once the colder, icy season sets in again. > >Agustin Chicarro, one of the leaders of the European Space >Agency's (ESA) Mars Express program, which plans to launch a Mars >probe in 2003, recently visited Hungary to follow up the team's >findings. > >"We make proposals (to the ESA) on where and what sort of >measurements should be made and when, how and what should be >photographed," Ganti said, adding that no final ESA decision had >been taken yet on Hungarian participation in the next probe. > >Ganti said that if the Hungarian team, also involving biologist >Eors Szathmary and astronomer Andras Horvath, was right, this >could be the first real proof of life on Mars. > >"This would be life. These would be living organisms and this >would be the first find of living organisms on another planet," >he said. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 19:29:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA26715; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:23:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:23:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3B9980F2.58FAC04D ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 19:22:42 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: What's New and separately, Storms's new article & misc. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-wRMV1.0.IX6.N4Ocx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: September 07, 2001 Ever diligent Robert Park, right on time to pick up on cold fusion happenings to bash it, is deafeningly silent this week on the Science Friday event. He rather harped on the easier 'Dennis Lee Show'. Curious. : ) A late mailing of the Summer quarterly of the 21st Century Science & Technology, vol. 14 N-. 2 was received. It contained a Cold Fusion Update with Dr. Edmund Storms writing the article: Where Do We Stand on Cold Fusion? Pages run from 76 to 79. Well written for the science bent with 26 references. There is also an ad inset for Jed Rothwell's translation work of Mixuno's book: 'Nuclear Transmutation'. McKubre made an ICCF-8 (Lerici) very successful report (as his) on the Case replication work. According to Russ George, there was a clear 'breach of contract' of understanding when his name was not not included as co-author in the submitted and published paper in the Proceedings. His name was biefly mentioned orally at the presentation along with others mixed in. As I understand it, publsihed papers are the lufe blood of establishing credibility in your name and work in science. When someone sayw he was 'very impressed' without being specific at the time, it leaves it oopen to any mannner of interpretations. . -AK- . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 7 21:00:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA23082; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 20:58:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 20:58:51 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Eugene F. Mallove" Subject: Re: Hungarian Scientists: Dune Spots are Mars Life Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 00:06:38 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <200109080053.UAA18953 mercury.mv.net> In-Reply-To: <200109080053.UAA18953 mercury.mv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01090800063801.01845 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA23058 Resent-Message-ID: <"XuO8d2.0.ae5.wTPcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 07 September 2001 16:44, Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > All, > > Great! The "dalmation" is back!! That's the white dunes with black spots > we were all discussing some Moons ago! These guys had given a scientific > paper earlier this summer. > > Gene Mallove > > >Fresh claims about life on Mars > > > >http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/09/07/mars.hungary.life/index.html > > > >BUDAPEST, Hungary -- Hungarian scientists claimed they've found > >evidence of living organisms on Mars after sifting through 60,000 > >photographs taken by NASA's Mars Global Surveyor satellite. > > > >Three scientists say the pictures show evidence of thousands of > >dark dune spots, similar to organisms found near Earth's South > >Pole, in craters in Mars' snowy southern polar region. > > > >"These spots indicate that on the surface below the ice there are > >such organisms which, absorbing solar energy, are able to melt > >the ice and create conditions of life for themselves," biologist > >and team member Tibor Ganti told Reuters. > > > >But a note posted on the Global Surveyor Web site in June, before > >the Hungarian findings were reported, cautions against jumping to > >conclusions about the spots. > > > >"Despite the "sensation" one gets when looking at pictures of > >spotted, defrosting martian dunes (i.e., the sensation that these > >images show some form of life, like vegetation, growing on Mars) > >these features are a normal, common manifestation of the > >springtime defrosting process on Mars," the message reads. > > > >Hungarians: Organisms are frozen > > > >The Hungarian researcher say that during harsh martian winters, > >when temperatures plummet to minus 200 degrees Celsius (minus 328 > >Fahrenheit), these so-called Mars Surface Organisms are protected > >by a thick blanket of ice which then melts as the planet's early > >summer temperatures climb to just above zero. > > > >Large grey dark dune spots -- with a diameter ranging from 10 > >meters (33 ft) to several hundred meters -- are left behind. > > > >The Hungarians claim the spots are dried-out organisms which can > >reactivate themselves once the colder, icy season sets in again. > > > >Agustin Chicarro, one of the leaders of the European Space > >Agency's (ESA) Mars Express program, which plans to launch a Mars > >probe in 2003, recently visited Hungary to follow up the team's > >findings. > > > >"We make proposals (to the ESA) on where and what sort of > >measurements should be made and when, how and what should be > >photographed," Ganti said, adding that no final ESA decision had > >been taken yet on Hungarian participation in the next probe. > > > >Ganti said that if the Hungarian team, also involving biologist > >Eors Szathmary and astronomer Andras Horvath, was right, this > >could be the first real proof of life on Mars. > > > >"This would be life. These would be living organisms and this > >would be the first find of living organisms on another planet," > >he said. > > > > > Our astronomers have been looking at and photographing Mars for centuries. When I was a schoolboy, I read books that supposed life on Mars based on pictures purporting to show that the whole planet seemed to have seasons, with the planet showing the appropriate color changes from green to brown at the right time in the correct hemisphere, etc. What became of these old ideas that they were forgotten by rabid 'de-"bunk"ers so cavalierly? Standing Bear .............refuse to consign your race to eternal isolation behind walls of 'c' and have your future crucified on a cross of 'GR'. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 8 17:25:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA08361; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 17:24:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 17:24:14 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: someone lost Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 10:23:46 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA08181 Resent-Message-ID: <"TLMCZ3.0.V22.kQhcx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, Has anyone been in touch with Jerry Volland recently? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 9 18:51:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13046; Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:49:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:49:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3B9C1A6F.38A1FED9 enter.net> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 21:42:07 -0400 From: David Rosignoli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Nick Reiter Subject: Re: Hemisphere Capacitor Research References: <000901c13406$645932e0$8b3dee3f User> <003301c1346c$7fb27a40$323dee3f@User> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WxI6H2.0.mB3.-m1dx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick, First, let me congratulate you on a nicely written experiment report. However, I do have a few questions and comments: 1) Where can I obtain conductive carbon paint (Atcheson Colloids 311)? 2) You mentioned Channel Industries provides lead zirconate titanate PZ forms. What is their URL? 3) In your report, you mention that the weight loss scales with surface area, heavier dielectrics, and electric field density. Have you been able to see the effects each one has keeping all other parameters constant? For example, have you been able to, say, increase the K factor of the dielectric while keeping the weight the same? 4) What is the relationship with angle? If a plate geometry doesn't work, but a cone works, is there an optimum angle? 5) How does the McMaster model predict what will happen when pulsed fields are applied? (E.g., TT Brown, Stavros Dimitirious) 6) Besides lare electric fields, have you tried large magnetic fields in your experiments, being in line with the McMaster model? 7) I notice that if I linearly extrapolate the line with the larger slope in Table A, then given a test mass of 500g, you'd have a weightloss at 8.9MV. Impractical as a means of propulsion in its current form. Of course, if it is not an artifact, then it can lead to some interesting theories which might lead to some practical method of propulsion. Or if you keep experimenting, maybe you'll find the right combination of geometry, materials, and voltage waveform to create something workable. Thanks. -Dave Nick Reiter wrote: > > Robin; > > Thanks for the input. This is similar to a geometry I did work with, though > did not mention specifically in the report. I took a 500ml round-bottom > flask, and painted the lower half of the outside with dag paint. Then down > the center, I suspended a silver painted glass marble as a small spherical > electrode. I could then fill the intervening flask space with different > media. > This was where I did start to get the hint that heavy materials, such as > litharge or PZT powder gave better results. However, the best results > seemed to come with maximizing the field density and magnitude - V/cm (thin > shell dielectric configuration) My guess would be that filling a spherical > volume with many layers would be the way to go - thus gaining field strength > AND length of influence. > > I also have seen hints that there is a factor of resistivity or finesse. > Lining a ball with silver paint or foil gave better results, generally, than > using carbon dag paint. Does this relate to a Casimir force or boundary > interaction? > > NR > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robin van Spaandonk > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 10:06 PM > Subject: Re: Hemisphere Capacitor Research > > > In reply to Nick Reiter's message of Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:23:55 -0400: > > [snip] > > >http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/hemiscap.htm > > [snip] > > Hi Nick, > > > > It might be worth trying the gold fish bowl, with a small brass knob > > suspended at the centre as the internal electrode, rather than the inner > > surface of the sphere. That way a much larger volume of space is > > affected by the E-field. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 9 19:37:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA28608; Sun, 9 Sep 2001 19:36:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 19:36:08 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 19:40:39 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Anomalous "Ashen Light" from Venus Resent-Message-ID: <"jo54u2.0.u-6.NS2dx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{It has been some time since I have been able to read the messages here or post (I'm tied up in a big project), but this caught my eye today, and it seems too pertinent to the group for me to not pass it on. Enjoy. --MJ}*** > Science Frontiers, No. 137, Sep-Oct, 2001, pp. 1 & 2 > > Science Frontiers is a bimonthly collection of digests of scientific > anomalies in the current literature. Published by the > > Sourcebook Project > P.O. Box 107 > Glen Arm, MD 21057 > > Annual subscription: $7.00 > > < http://www.science-frontiers.com > > > ASTRONOMY > > CLOSING THE BOOK > > Scientists are understandably delighted when they believe they have > definitively and indisputably explained one of Nature's many mysteries. > They can then finally "close the book" on the phenomenon. Sometimes, > though, the book is slammed shut prematurely or unjustifiably. Also, > as it often happens, closing one book opens another and the new one > is even harder to close. Below, we present three examples where > finality (closed books) seems to be proclaimed too quickly. > > > THE ASHEN LIGHT OF VENUS > > On occasion, the night side of Venus (which goes through phases like the > moon) seems to glow softly and subtly. For some 350 years, keen-eyed > observers have seen this phenomenon through their telescopes. > Nevertheless, the effect is so elusive that many astronomers doubt > its physical reality. Additionally, it is easy to doubt the existence > of the ashen light because good explanations are as elusive as the > light itself. > > During the past decade, two scienti[fic] nails have also been driven > into the ashen-light coffin: > > (1) Spectrographic studies of the upper atmosphere of Venus do detect > some nighttime air glow, but it is much too weak to account for the > abundant telescopic observations from earth. > > (2) The *Cassini* spacecraft did not detect any high-frequency radio > noise typical of lightning when it passed close to Venus in 1998 and > 1999. This put an end to the surmise that the ashen light was due to > rapid, widespread lightning occurring deep inside the planet's thick > atmosphere and then blended into a steady glow by atmospheric > scattering. > > (Anonymous; "Case for 'Ashen Light' Weakens," *Sky & Telescope*, 101:27, > May 2001.) > > Comment. It seems that the ashen-light phenomenon is within an Angstrom > Unit of being closed; first, because instruments cannot detect what the > human eye sees; and second, and more important, science knows of no > physical mechanism that might create the light. This latter attitude is > dangerous. For example, the reality of continental drift was dismissed > contemptuously for decades for the lack of a physical mechanism to move > the continents. ________________ Quote of the month: "[The recent stock market bubble was] the biggest financial insanity ever in any nation in history [and will lead to] a stock market crash greater than the Great Crash of 1929." --Sir John Templeton From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 03:58:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA06097; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 03:57:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 03:57:57 -0700 Message-ID: <002901c139e7$d43bc500$df3dee3f User> From: "Nick Reiter" To: "David Rosignoli" , References: <000901c13406$645932e0$8b3dee3f User> <003301c1346c$7fb27a40$323dee3f@User> <3B9C1A6F.38A1FED9@enter.net> Subject: Re: Hemisphere Capacitor Research Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:00:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"4Tsvi2.0.BV1.ro9dx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave; Thanks for keeping up on this project. This past week, and this weekend, I was in close communication with Scott Little, who did do some initially positive replications and then between he and I, found a potential artifact due to charged air jetting. Another old member (or former member?) of Vort also gave very good suggestions that paralleled this as well. However, we have not pinned it entirely, due to weight change effects with a variety of geometries, some of which don't seem conducive to the air jet model. So while Scott identified a real (though trickier than one would have thought) artifact, the effects may still be lurking as well. So thus, the invite is still on for others to work with this, and try their own versions. Please see the below inserted notes**** ----- Original Message ----- From: David Rosignoli To: ; Nick Reiter Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 9:42 PM Subject: Re: Hemisphere Capacitor Research > Nick, > > First, let me congratulate you on a nicely written experiment report. > However, I do have a few questions and comments: > 1) Where can I obtain conductive carbon paint (Atcheson Colloids 311)? ******* Apart from looking up Atcheson Colloids in the phone book, I am not sure. The stuff I used was purchased for another project a couple of years ago by a tech no longer working with us. Atcheson Colloids is in Detroit, Mi. > 2) You mentioned Channel Industries provides lead zirconate titanate PZ > forms. What is their URL? ****** Do a web search. I am not at my office computer right now, so it is not at my fingertips. They have a website, though. The 6" diameter hemispheres will run between $800 and $900 dollars. They are in California. > 3) In your report, you mention that the weight loss scales with surface > area, heavier dielectrics, and electric field density. Have you been > able to see the effects each one has keeping all other parameters > constant? For example, have you been able to, say, increase the K factor > of the dielectric while keeping the weight the same? ****** Not easy to do, because I am not able to build the wide array of models for a full factoral experiment or even a one variable at a time experiment. I have to use what I can either afford or piece together from earlier experiments. If the effect holds up from the current artifact removal, we will get more serious about a methodical sequence of design changes. > 4) What is the relationship with angle? If a plate geometry doesn't > work, but a cone works, is there an optimum angle? ****** Hard to say. I would have predicted 45 degrees from vertical, but again, it is too tentative to say. The cone divergers I have played with are made from 60 degree pyrex funnel cones. > 5) How does the McMaster model predict what will happen when pulsed > fields are applied? (E.g., TT Brown, Stavros Dimitirious) ******* Unknown. I would have predicted an enhancement - sort of a "snap the aether" sort of metaphor. > 6) Besides lare electric fields, have you tried large magnetic fields in > your experiments, being in line with the McMaster model? ****** No, but it is a thought... > 7) I notice that if I linearly extrapolate the line with the larger > slope in Table A, then given a test mass of 500g, you'd have a > weightloss at 8.9MV. Impractical as a means of propulsion in its current > form. Of course, if it is not an artifact, then it can lead to some > interesting theories which might lead to some practical method of > propulsion. Or if you keep experimenting, maybe you'll find the right > combination of geometry, materials, and voltage waveform to create > something workable. ****** We are doing what we can. I hope it makes it out of the woods, but that goes without saying! > > Thanks. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 08:51:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31549; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:50:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:50:34 -0700 Message-ID: <3B9CE156.81465F6C verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:50:46 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Gravity Q&A page updated Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VmbCb.0.oi7.95Edx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, I found the Q&A page http://users.telemail.it/gmodanese/forum.htm was updated with new 6 items. Most exciting are - the beam reported tested at 1200 meter away without any attenuation and divergence. - beam appears not accelerate the air, although in a letter E. Podkletnov forwarded by patanie2 yahoo.com is written "When you hold your hand in the projection area during the discharge you can feel the force or a short push to your hand together with a kind of an air push on your hand." Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 14:11:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12678; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:10:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:10:49 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:11:03 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Report from sci.physics.fusion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"03L-a.0._53.PnIdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I have wasted some time -- far too much time, I confess -- in the past month posting messages in sci.physics.fusion. I have discovered something about the minds of the arch-skeptics which I never fully grasped before. They sincerely believe what they say, and they honestly do not understand some basic concepts. I was shocked to learn that Richard Schultz actually does not grasp the notion that a chemical reaction can only produce 5 or 10 eV per atom theoretically, and in practice no more than 4 eV, which works out to be roughly 40 MJ per kg for the best fuel. He blithely asserted that it might produce 600 times more energy than that. Another well-know skeptic sincerely believes that if you leave a bucket of water in a room for 10 days, 37 liters of water might evaporate from it. These people are not well grounded in everyday, grade school level physics. I wrote an essay about this, and posted it over at sci.physics.fusion. It will not be appreciated there, and I worked pretty hard on it for a few hours, so let me repost it here. Unlike some of the other messages there, the tone is moderate and I did not indulge in much name-calling, so it is appropriate for this forum. I hesitate to post this here mainly because readers here will understand will everything in this essay, and will find it a trifle boring. They can always skip it! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - On September 14, 2001, Richard Schultz of the Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University wrote what may be the dumbest comment in the history of cold fusion. To help enshrine his remarks for posterity, let me describe them in detail, with an introduction for people who are not familiar with cold fusion and some basic physics. First, it must be noted that Schultz has seen thousands of comments about cold fusion. He has seen hundreds of statements about the "energy limits of chemistry." This is one of the most important concepts in the field, as most people understood from the moment cold fusion was announced in 1989. A given mass of chemical fuel will produce a certain amount of energy, and there is a well-known upper limit to the energy that any chemical fuel can produce. For example, gasoline generates 42 MJ of heat per kilogram of fuel; hard coal produces 30 MJ per kilogram. This works out to be roughly 2 eV per atom from gasoline, or 4 eV per atom from the heavier carbon atoms in coal. That is close to the limits of chemical energy. Electron bonds cannot hold much more than 4 eV per atom. A few exotic chemical fuels have been proposed which may generate as much as 18 eV/atom, but some experts doubt that reactions greater than 10 eV per atom are possible. Nuclear reactions, on the other hand, may produce millions of eV per atom. When a process greatly exceeds the limits of chemistry, producing far more energy than gasoline or coal, and far more than 10 eV per atom, and when this process produces no chemical transformations and no chemical ash, we can be certain that the process is not a chemical reaction. It must be nuclear, or something new and unknown to science. Any chemist or physicist will know how much energy common chemical reactions consume or produce. This is called the "the heat of formation" and it is listed for various common chemicals in any textbook, or you can work it out from first principles. A chemist will know this sort of thing in his sleep. It is one the topics covered in a junior high school introductory textbook, along with the Periodic Table and Boyle's law. He will know that chemical reactions seldom produce more than a few electron volts per atom. The most common chemical on earth is water. When O2 and H2 gas burn to form water, this produces 285,800 J/mole. A chemist who does not remember this will probably guess a number close to it, or he will look it up in a textbook. He will never hazard a guess that the number is 500 joules per mole, or 171 million. No chemical reaction comes close to 171 million joules per mole! Let us turn to Schultz's remarks. They began with a discussion of the Mizuno's pressurized cell which produced a large, unexpected burst of heat-after-death, that lasted 10 days, starting April 25, 1991. During that event, the cell grew very hot, and they feared it might explode. It was disconnected from the power supply and submerged in a bucket of water behind a steel plate in an unused room, and then moved to another, larger bucket. It evaporated 20 liters of water from the first bucket, and 17.5 from the second. The exchange began when Schultz asked me: "What is the highest temperature that has been achieved in a cell that uses D2O rather than gaseous D2 as the source of D atoms?" I responded: "As far as I know, about 200 deg C, by Mizuno, with a stainless steel cell . . . That cell produced 85 megajoules, evaporating 17.5 liters of water, with no input power." [That was my mistake; it should have been 37.5 liters. I read the amount of water evaporated from the second bucket.] Shultz remarked: "If they were able to evaporate 17.5 liters of water with the instrument completely disconnected from any source of input power (and with the instrument still at 150 C when the experiment finished), then their decision not to follow up on those experiments marks them as Grade A idiots. . . ." [They did follow up with smaller cathodes, with some success, but no similar large heat-after-death event. They did not use another large cathode because the incident seemed hazardous. Many other researchers, including Pons and Fleischmann and McKubre have reported similar heat-after-death events.] I responded: "[The cell] was disconnected in a big fat hurry . . . They thought it might explode. They disconnected it, wrapped it in towels so it would not burn their hands, ran it to the next building, and submerged it in a 15 liter bucket of water placed behind a thick steel plate. It stayed hot for a week, and they refilled the bucket every few days. . . . That was the largest heat-after-death event ever recorded. Presumably one reason it was so big was the size of the cathode: 100 grams of Pd. That's 100 to 200 times larger than any other ever tested, before or since, as far as I know. . . ." Schultz wrote: "In other words, we have no evidence whatsoever that the "heat-after-death" was due to CF rather than to a more mundane explanation such as D2 + O2 combustion . . ." In other words, Schultz thinks that the water in the cell with 100 g Pd cathode might have produced 85 MJ. Let us look at this assertion carefully. First, he did not catch my own careless error: 17.5 liters of evaporated water would mean there were only 40 MJ, not 85. I quickly corrected it to 37.5 liters, and apologized. But in any case, even 40 MJ is completely out of the question. Second, Schultz knew the size of the size of the cathode, and from that is easy to determine the total amount of free hydrogen that could have been in the cell. Suppose the entire 100 g of Pd was loaded with 1 atom of deuterium for each Pd atom. 100 grams of Pd equals a little less than 1 mole (106 grams Pd). If all of the deuterium had escaped and recombined, it would have formed 0.5 moles of water. It takes 2 deuterons to form one molecule of heavy water. This would produce 0.14 MJ of heat, not 85. Actually, it is impossible to load the entire sample of palladium as high as 1:1. It could not produce anywhere near as much as 0.14 MJ, but this is the theoretical upper limit. This first approximation shows that Schultz was off by factor of 85 / 0.14 = 607. You can make another rough estimate. The total mass of material in the cell was a little more than 100 grams. Anyone familiar with cold fusion cell would know this, and Schultz has read thousands of descriptions of cells. In any case, the only active material was the palladium, and the rest of the cell content was water, which is inert. Water does not burn. Assume that all 100 grams of active material were the most energy dense form of common chemical fuel: gasoline. Assume there was a leak and oxygen was admitted to the cell. 100 grams of gasoline will produce 4 MJ of energy, whereas this cell produced 12 MJ while it was running, and 85 MJ after it was turned off. These assumptions are ridiculous. There was no leak, oxygen was not admitted, and of course the entire 100 grams of active material was palladium, not free hydrogen and oxygen. Still, this back-of-the-envelope estimate also shows that a chemical reaction is impossible by a factor of 20. To put these numbers in perspective -- to grasp the full extent of Schultz's error -- let us take my 1994 Geo Metro automobile, which cost me $9,000 new. Imagine a used car dealer estimates the resale value incorrectly by a factor of 607: "I guess that car cost you $5.5 million. I'll give you $1 million for it." Chemists and used car dealers must have a minimum level of common sense and basic competence, to keep from making gigantic mistakes and impossible assumptions. Schultz has read arguments about the limits of chemistry literally hundreds of times, and as a chemist he should have grasped the concept the instant he first heard it, 12 years ago. Later, he tried to explain his mistake: "Note that (1) nowhere did I claim that 100 g of H2 + O2 would give that much energy, but that more importantly, (2) Rothwell *never* specified the amount of water in Mizuno's (sealed) high-P cell. What Rothwell said was that there was 100 g of *Palladium*, with no mention whatsoever of how much water there was in the cell." Apparently, he thinks there may have been 4 liters of water in the cell, and it was all electrolyzed into free D2 and O2 gas, and the gas gradually recombined to produce 85 MJ of heat. Perhaps he imagines the gas loaded into the palladium at a ratio of 202 deuterium atoms for each Pd atom. Or perhaps he thinks that free gas built up inside the cell. There are several problems with these hypotheses: 1. No cell has 4 liter of water. Anyone familiar with the literature would know that. 2. A loading ratio of 1:202 Pd:D is absurd. 3. Schultz knew it was a closed cell, and all closed cells must have a recombiner and an emergency valve. 4. In the unlikely event that both the recombiner and the emergency valve fail, the cell would rupture long before 4 kg of gas builds up! 5. Even if the gas could magically build up to this level, it would not gradually recombine over a week, producing ~100 watts of heat. When any part of it recombined enough to produce a measurable level of heat, the rest would instantly recombine, causing a large explosion. Schultz and many other skeptics have made this same error dozens of times in the past. They have been corrected time after time, and shown example after example of how to make this computation, and where the limits of chemistry lie. The late D. Morrison claimed that a 0.5 gram sample of palladium might produce more than 1.1 MJ of energy. He repeated this error time after time, in publications and e-mail messages, even after Fleischmann and many others showed him the mistake and led him by the hand through the simple estimate. Fleischmann wrote, ". . . the vapourisation of the D2O alone would have required ~1.1MJ of energy whereas the combustion of all the D in the palladium would at most have produced ~ 650J (assuming that the D/Pd ratio had reached ~1 in the cathode)" (August 1993) Aftermath . . . Schultz responded: "No, all I said was that I am not convinced that the mysterious "heat after death" incident (assuming that it happened at all) was not caused by a mundane event *such as* D2 + O2 recombination." I responded that no such "mundane event" can occur, even in principle. No chemical reactions can come close. I asked him to list a candidate mundane event. He protested: "As I said previously, just because I cannot come up with an explanation (not having all of the facts in hand, to begin with) doesn't mean that there is no explanation." I responded, again, that no "can come up" with a way to produce 85 MJ of chemical energy from 300 grams of any material. That would violate more basic of laws of physics than a nuclear process in a metal lattice would. I pointed out that no additional facts are needed. "No detailed description is needed. The facts, as given, prove the issue. In this respect, it is like the description of a thermonuclear bomb. A bomb which weighs 100 kg and produces as much energy as 100,000 tons of TNT cannot be chemical." Schultz considered the hypothesis that the water might be lost to evaporation, but he had the good sense to reject this idea on his own: "If this event took place over the course of a week, then you have to consider how much of the water in the bucket would have evaporated anyway. Not knowing the exact circumstances, I don't know how much that would have been -- probably not much (say, a liter or two). But that lowers his energy estimate by a few percent right there." In point of fact, this incident took place in an unheated room in Sapporo, Hokkaido, in April. The average daily high temperature there in April is 11 deg C, and Japanese National University buildings of this vintage are like ice boxes inside. Individual rooms are heated with natural gas heaters only when someone is present. The windows are single panes, with cracked glass in this case and a large gap at the end, because the building is sagging. Another well-known skeptic, Tom Kunich, seized the bull by the horns and boldly declared: "Over a couple of days HOW MUCH of the water was 'evaporated' by the hot cell and how much from the environment which in some cases might very well account for the lion's share of it." He suggested that the bucket might have been left next to a radiator. I reported there are no radiators in the Engineering Dept. at Hokkaido U.; I saw the spot where the bucket was placed, and there were no heat sources near it. I suggested he test this hypothesis by placing a 20 liter bucket of water in a room for 10 days to measure how much water evaporates. I pointed out that the evaporation level was 10 liters per day for the first few days, and I suggested he leave a bucket for 2 or 3 hours to see whether 1 liter of water evaporates, as a preliminary test. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 14:45:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28552; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:43:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:43:00 -0700 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:55:14 -0700 (PDT) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vTjah1.0.zz6.aFJdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed A nice report. The problem with the ultra-skeptics is that Cold Fusion upsets their religion. You might as well tell a Christian that Jesus couldn't rise up on Easter Day. Hank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 14:59:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA03564; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:58:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:58:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3B9D29EC.AF285A2D ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:01:21 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rBGSc1.0.ct.QUJdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A A good job of explaining the Mizuno results, Jed. In the process you have discovered a very important facet of the human mind, all human minds. We see only what we wish to see. We all are like a person under hypnosis who is told that an object feels hot when in fact it is cold. Such a person, as any stage hypnotist likes to show, will have an explanation for the apparent discrepancy, no matter how fooling it might be. We are all hypnotized to some extent. In the case of cold fusion, as well as other popular examples, a few people have snapped out of the trance and can see the world as it really is. Those people who are still in the trance will seek any convenient explanation to avoid confronting the obvious, all the while believing they are right, just like a hypnotized person on the stage. The challenge we all have is to break through the trance and see reality in all its glory - not an easy task. Regards, Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > I have wasted some time -- far too much time, I confess -- in the past > month posting messages in sci.physics.fusion. I have discovered something > about the minds of the arch-skeptics which I never fully grasped before. > They sincerely believe what they say, and they honestly do not understand > some basic concepts. I was shocked to learn that Richard Schultz actually > does not grasp the notion that a chemical reaction can only produce 5 or 10 > eV per atom theoretically, and in practice no more than 4 eV, which works > out to be roughly 40 MJ per kg for the best fuel. He blithely asserted that > it might produce 600 times more energy than that. Another well-know skeptic > sincerely believes that if you leave a bucket of water in a room for 10 > days, 37 liters of water might evaporate from it. These people are not well > grounded in everyday, grade school level physics. > > I wrote an essay about this, and posted it over at sci.physics.fusion. It > will not be appreciated there, and I worked pretty hard on it for a few > hours, so let me repost it here. Unlike some of the other messages there, > the tone is moderate and I did not indulge in much name-calling, so it is > appropriate for this forum. I hesitate to post this here mainly because > readers here will understand will everything in this essay, and will find > it a trifle boring. They can always skip it! > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > On September 14, 2001, Richard Schultz of the Department of Chemistry, > Bar-Ilan University wrote what may be the dumbest comment in the history of > cold fusion. To help enshrine his remarks for posterity, let me describe > them in detail, with an introduction for people who are not familiar with > cold fusion and some basic physics. > > First, it must be noted that Schultz has seen thousands of comments about > cold fusion. He has seen hundreds of statements about the "energy limits of > chemistry." This is one of the most important concepts in the field, as > most people understood from the moment cold fusion was announced in 1989. > > A given mass of chemical fuel will produce a certain amount of energy, and > there is a well-known upper limit to the energy that any chemical fuel can > produce. For example, gasoline generates 42 MJ of heat per kilogram of > fuel; hard coal produces 30 MJ per kilogram. This works out to be roughly 2 > eV per atom from gasoline, or 4 eV per atom from the heavier carbon atoms > in coal. That is close to the limits of chemical energy. Electron bonds > cannot hold much more than 4 eV per atom. A few exotic chemical fuels have > been proposed which may generate as much as 18 eV/atom, but some experts > doubt that reactions greater than 10 eV per atom are possible. Nuclear > reactions, on the other hand, may produce millions of eV per atom. When a > process greatly exceeds the limits of chemistry, producing far more energy > than gasoline or coal, and far more than 10 eV per atom, and when this > process produces no chemical transformations and no chemical ash, we can be > certain that the process is not a chemical reaction. It must be nuclear, or > something new and unknown to science. > > Any chemist or physicist will know how much energy common chemical > reactions consume or produce. This is called the "the heat of formation" > and it is listed for various common chemicals in any textbook, or you can > work it out from first principles. A chemist will know this sort of thing > in his sleep. It is one the topics covered in a junior high school > introductory textbook, along with the Periodic Table and Boyle's law. He > will know that chemical reactions seldom produce more than a few electron > volts per atom. The most common chemical on earth is water. When O2 and H2 > gas burn to form water, this produces 285,800 J/mole. A chemist who does > not remember this will probably guess a number close to it, or he will look > it up in a textbook. He will never hazard a guess that the number is 500 > joules per mole, or 171 million. No chemical reaction comes close to 171 > million joules per mole! > > Let us turn to Schultz's remarks. They began with a discussion of the > Mizuno's pressurized cell which produced a large, unexpected burst of > heat-after-death, that lasted 10 days, starting April 25, 1991. During that > event, the cell grew very hot, and they feared it might explode. It was > disconnected from the power supply and submerged in a bucket of water > behind a steel plate in an unused room, and then moved to another, larger > bucket. It evaporated 20 liters of water from the first bucket, and 17.5 > from the second. > > The exchange began when Schultz asked me: "What is the highest temperature > that has been achieved in a cell that uses D2O rather than gaseous D2 as > the source of D atoms?" > > I responded: "As far as I know, about 200 deg C, by Mizuno, with a > stainless steel cell . . . That cell produced 85 megajoules, evaporating > 17.5 liters of water, with no input power." [That was my mistake; it should > have been 37.5 liters. I read the amount of water evaporated from the > second bucket.] > > Shultz remarked: "If they were able to evaporate 17.5 liters of water with > the instrument completely disconnected from any source of input power (and > with the instrument still at 150 C when the experiment finished), then > their decision not to follow up on those experiments marks them as Grade A > idiots. . . ." [They did follow up with smaller cathodes, with some > success, but no similar large heat-after-death event. They did not use > another large cathode because the incident seemed hazardous. Many other > researchers, including Pons and Fleischmann and McKubre have reported > similar heat-after-death events.] > > I responded: "[The cell] was disconnected in a big fat hurry . . . They > thought it might explode. They disconnected it, wrapped it in towels so it > would not burn their hands, ran it to the next building, and submerged it > in a 15 liter bucket of water placed behind a thick steel plate. It stayed > hot for a week, and they refilled the bucket every few days. . . . That was > the largest heat-after-death event ever recorded. Presumably one reason it > was so big was the size of the cathode: 100 grams of Pd. That's 100 to 200 > times larger than any other ever tested, before or since, as far as I know. > . . ." > > Schultz wrote: "In other words, we have no evidence whatsoever that the > "heat-after-death" was due to CF rather than to a more mundane explanation > such as D2 + O2 combustion . . ." > > In other words, Schultz thinks that the water in the cell with 100 g Pd > cathode might have produced 85 MJ. Let us look at this assertion carefully. > > First, he did not catch my own careless error: 17.5 liters of evaporated > water would mean there were only 40 MJ, not 85. I quickly corrected it to > 37.5 liters, and apologized. But in any case, even 40 MJ is completely out > of the question. > > Second, Schultz knew the size of the size of the cathode, and from that is > easy to determine the total amount of free hydrogen that could have been in > the cell. Suppose the entire 100 g of Pd was loaded with 1 atom of > deuterium for each Pd atom. 100 grams of Pd equals a little less than 1 > mole (106 grams Pd). If all of the deuterium had escaped and recombined, it > would have formed 0.5 moles of water. It takes 2 deuterons to form one > molecule of heavy water. This would produce 0.14 MJ of heat, not 85. > Actually, it is impossible to load the entire sample of palladium as high > as 1:1. It could not produce anywhere near as much as 0.14 MJ, but this is > the theoretical upper limit. This first approximation shows that Schultz > was off by factor of 85 / 0.14 = 607. > > You can make another rough estimate. The total mass of material in the cell > was a little more than 100 grams. Anyone familiar with cold fusion cell > would know this, and Schultz has read thousands of descriptions of cells. > In any case, the only active material was the palladium, and the rest of > the cell content was water, which is inert. Water does not burn. Assume > that all 100 grams of active material were the most energy dense form of > common chemical fuel: gasoline. Assume there was a leak and oxygen was > admitted to the cell. 100 grams of gasoline will produce 4 MJ of energy, > whereas this cell produced 12 MJ while it was running, and 85 MJ after it > was turned off. These assumptions are ridiculous. There was no leak, oxygen > was not admitted, and of course the entire 100 grams of active material was > palladium, not free hydrogen and oxygen. Still, this back-of-the-envelope > estimate also shows that a chemical reaction is impossible by a factor of 20. > > To put these numbers in perspective -- to grasp the full extent of > Schultz's error -- let us take my 1994 Geo Metro automobile, which cost me > $9,000 new. Imagine a used car dealer estimates the resale value > incorrectly by a factor of 607: "I guess that car cost you $5.5 million. > I'll give you $1 million for it." Chemists and used car dealers must have a > minimum level of common sense and basic competence, to keep from making > gigantic mistakes and impossible assumptions. Schultz has read arguments > about the limits of chemistry literally hundreds of times, and as a chemist > he should have grasped the concept the instant he first heard it, 12 years ago. > > Later, he tried to explain his mistake: "Note that (1) nowhere did I claim > that 100 g of H2 + O2 would give that much energy, but that more > importantly, (2) Rothwell *never* specified the amount of water in Mizuno's > (sealed) high-P cell. What Rothwell said was that there was 100 g of > *Palladium*, with no mention whatsoever of how much water there was in the > cell." Apparently, he thinks there may have been 4 liters of water in the > cell, and it was all electrolyzed into free D2 and O2 gas, and the gas > gradually recombined to produce 85 MJ of heat. Perhaps he imagines the gas > loaded into the palladium at a ratio of 202 deuterium atoms for each Pd > atom. Or perhaps he thinks that free gas built up inside the cell. There > are several problems with these hypotheses: > > 1. No cell has 4 liter of water. Anyone familiar with the literature would > know that. > 2. A loading ratio of 1:202 Pd:D is absurd. > > 3. Schultz knew it was a closed cell, and all closed cells must have a > recombiner and an emergency valve. > > 4. In the unlikely event that both the recombiner and the emergency valve > fail, the cell would rupture long before 4 kg of gas builds up! > > 5. Even if the gas could magically build up to this level, it would not > gradually recombine over a week, producing ~100 watts of heat. When any > part of it recombined enough to produce a measurable level of heat, the > rest would instantly recombine, causing a large explosion. > > Schultz and many other skeptics have made this same error dozens of times > in the past. They have been corrected time after time, and shown example > after example of how to make this computation, and where the limits of > chemistry lie. The late D. Morrison claimed that a 0.5 gram sample of > palladium might produce more than 1.1 MJ of energy. He repeated this error > time after time, in publications and e-mail messages, even after > Fleischmann and many others showed him the mistake and led him by the hand > through the simple estimate. Fleischmann wrote, ". . . the vapourisation of > the D2O alone would have required ~1.1MJ of energy whereas the combustion > of all the D in the palladium would at most have produced ~ 650J (assuming > that the D/Pd ratio had reached ~1 in the cathode)" (August 1993) > > Aftermath . . . > > Schultz responded: "No, all I said was that I am not convinced that the > mysterious "heat after > death" incident (assuming that it happened at all) was not caused by a > mundane event *such as* D2 + O2 recombination." > > I responded that no such "mundane event" can occur, even in principle. No > chemical reactions can come close. I asked him to list a candidate mundane > event. He protested: "As I said previously, just because I cannot come up > with an explanation (not having all of the facts in hand, to begin with) > doesn't mean that there is no explanation." > > I responded, again, that no "can come up" with a way to produce 85 MJ of > chemical energy from 300 grams of any material. That would violate more > basic of laws of physics than a nuclear process in a metal lattice would. I > pointed out that no additional facts are needed. "No detailed description > is needed. The facts, as given, prove the issue. In this respect, it is > like the description of a thermonuclear bomb. A bomb which weighs 100 kg > and produces as much energy as 100,000 tons of TNT cannot be chemical." > > Schultz considered the hypothesis that the water might be lost to > evaporation, but he had the good sense to reject this idea on his own: "If > this event took place over the course of a week, then you have to consider > how much of the water in the bucket would have evaporated anyway. Not > knowing the exact circumstances, I don't know how much that would have been > -- probably not much (say, a liter or two). But that lowers his energy > estimate by a few percent right there." > > In point of fact, this incident took place in an unheated room in Sapporo, > Hokkaido, in April. The average daily high temperature there in April is 11 > deg C, and Japanese National University buildings of this vintage are like > ice boxes inside. Individual rooms are heated with natural gas heaters only > when someone is present. The windows are single panes, with cracked glass > in this case and a large gap at the end, because the building is sagging. > > Another well-known skeptic, Tom Kunich, seized the bull by the horns and > boldly declared: "Over a couple of days HOW MUCH of the water was > 'evaporated' by the hot cell and how much from the environment which in > some cases might very well account for the lion's share of it." He > suggested that the bucket might have been left next to a radiator. I > reported there are no radiators in the Engineering Dept. at Hokkaido U.; I > saw the spot where the bucket was placed, and there were no heat sources > near it. I suggested he test this hypothesis by placing a 20 liter bucket > of water in a room for 10 days to measure how much water evaporates. I > pointed out that the evaporation level was 10 liters per day for the first > few days, and I suggested he leave a bucket for 2 or 3 hours to see whether > 1 liter of water evaporates, as a preliminary test. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 15:13:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA09025; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:12:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:12:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:12:20 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-ma_W.0.sC2.6hJdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote: > They sincerely believe what they say, and they honestly do not understand > some basic concepts. I think it goes farther than this. If your opponent is an expert who MUST understand those concepts, then whenever they misunderstand things in order to avoid losing an argument, that is caused by something very strange and twisted: it is their psychological defense mechanisms in action. > I responded that no such "mundane event" can occur, even in principle. > No chemical reactions can come close. I asked him to list a candidate > mundane event. He protested: "As I said previously, just because I > cannot come up with an explanation (not having all of the facts in hand, > to begin with) doesn't mean that there is no explanation." This same reasoning was used in recent years to reject the Bem/Honorton "ganzfeld" experiments which attempted to prove Psi. After several years of discussion and re-testing, the skeptics couldn't think of any other artifacts or explanations for the positive results of the experiment. Did this convince them that mind-reading exists? No. They just assumed that someone in the future would eventually think of another artifact that caused the results. This same tactic is mentioned here: Conversational Terrorism: denial of a valid conclusion http://www.proft.org/tips/conv-terror.html#s Didn't Sherlock Holmes say "when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, can simply be *ignored*" ? The Bem/Honorton "ganzfeld" controversy: http://www.dina.kvl.dk/~abraham/psy1.html http://www.mceagle.com/remote-viewing/refs/science/air/hyman.html ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 15:18:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA10771; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:17:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:17:33 -0700 Message-Id: <200109102217.SAA08551 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:08:20 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"nZbtP3.0.De2.zlJdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ed Stroms wrote: >A good job of explaining the Mizuno results, Jed. I second that. More below... > In the process you have >discovered a very important facet of the human mind, all human minds. We >see only >what we wish to see. We all are like a person under hypnosis who is told >that an >object feels hot when in fact it is cold. Such a person, as any stage >hypnotist >likes to show, will have an explanation for the apparent discrepancy, no >matter >how fooling it might be. We are all hypnotized to some extent. In the >case of >cold fusion, as well as other popular examples, a few people have snapped >out of >the trance and can see the world as it really is. Those people who are >still in >the trance will seek any convenient explanation to avoid confronting the >obvious, >all the while believing they are right, just like a hypnotized person on the >stage. The challenge we all have is to break through the trance and see >reality in >all its glory - not an easy task. And we also learn that even cold fusion people can become "skeptics" of sorts when one tries to point out other anomalies to THEM. Look how long it took to get serious discussion of heavy element transmutation properly addressed at ICCF's! And this phenomenon was in their own back yard, so to speak. > >Regards, >Ed Best, Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 15:21:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA11911; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:20:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:20:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:20:12 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion In-Reply-To: <3B9D29EC.AF285A2D ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"0jObv.0.xv2.XoJdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Edmund Storms wrote: > The challenge we all have is to break through the trance and see reality > in all its glory - not an easy task. It's just Feynman's "Bend-over-backwards honesty." What most people don't realize is that such "honesty" is terribly painful and takes much effort to maintain. People also don't realize that intellectual dishonesty is often entirely unconscious and automatic. PS, I recently saw a mention of "Faraday's 'honour of a scientist'". I wonder if Faraday has some words somewhere about scientists and honesty. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 15:32:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA16305; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:31:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:31:40 -0700 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:27:01 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"3lB_V3.0.h-3.CzJdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > Schultz responded: "No, all I said was that I am not convinced that the > mysterious "heat after death" incident (assuming that it happened at all) > was not caused by a mundane event... > I responded that no such "mundane event" can occur, even in principle. No > chemical reactions can come close. I asked him to list a candidate mundane event... If Randell Mills is correct in his theory, and in the rapidly accumulating body evidence that he offers in support of it (see http://www.blacklightpower.com/), then the candidate reaction for this energy release would be the shrinkage of the deuterium atom from what traditional physics perceives to be its "ground state" to a lower energy state. The energy limits for this kind of reaction are less than fusion but perhaps several thousand times greater than chemical. And if Mills' cosmological evidence is correct, this candidate event is indeed "mundane" in the sense that it is very common in our solar system (supplying some significant fraction of our sun's energy) and is also "non-nuclear." You may choose to ignore Mills' evidence, just as others on sci.physics.fusion choose to ignore the evidence for LENR, but doesn't that only place you into the same category of close mindedness that you seem to find in their remarks. As Gene Mallove states: And we also learn that even cold fusion people can become "skeptics" of sorts when one tries to point out other anomalies to THEM. Look how long it took to get serious discussion of heavy element transmutation properly addressed at ICCF's! And this phenomenon was in their own back yard, so to speak. Or from Ed Storms: ...In the process you have discovered a very important facet of the human mind, all human minds. We see only what we wish to see... Indeed. Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 15:41:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19968; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:40:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:40:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3B9D339B.40E261C3 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:42:44 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion References: <200109102217.SAA08551 mercury.mv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1dJXJ3.0.wt4.35Kdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Eugene F. Mallove" wrote: > Ed Stroms wrote: > > >A good job of explaining the Mizuno results, Jed. > > I second that. More below... > > > In the process you have > >discovered a very important facet of the human mind, all human minds. We > >see only > >what we wish to see. We all are like a person under hypnosis who is told > >that an > >object feels hot when in fact it is cold. Such a person, as any stage > >hypnotist > >likes to show, will have an explanation for the apparent discrepancy, no > >matter > >how fooling it might be. We are all hypnotized to some extent. In the > >case of > >cold fusion, as well as other popular examples, a few people have snapped > >out of > >the trance and can see the world as it really is. Those people who are > >still in > >the trance will seek any convenient explanation to avoid confronting the > >obvious, > >all the while believing they are right, just like a hypnotized person on the > >stage. The challenge we all have is to break through the trance and see > >reality in > >all its glory - not an easy task. > > And we also learn that even cold fusion people can become "skeptics" of > sorts when one tries to point out other anomalies to THEM. Look how long > it took to get serious discussion of heavy element transmutation properly > addressed at ICCF's! And this phenomenon was in their own back yard, so > to speak. You raise an interest point, Gene. Just when should a claim be believed or, in other words, what evidence is required to break the trance? After all, much is claimed about the world that is only the product of imagination, sometimes highly distorted at that. Here I suggest a distinction needs to be made between an unwillingness to accept a claim until sufficient evidence is provided and an unwillingness to accept a claim no matter how much evidence is available. The boundary between insufficient and sufficient is a gray area where we all differ. However, it is clear to most people when a person refuses to leave this gray area no matter how much evidence is provided. It is this failure we find distasteful. Regards, Ed > > > > >Regards, > >Ed > > Best, > Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 15:53:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25687; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:52:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:52:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3B9D3692.A2D467CB ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:55:25 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NFUki.0.HH6.wGKdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A good point. However, this is why people insisted that nuclear products be found, which they were. So far, no evidence supports the Miles process while evidence for a variety of anomalous nuclear reactions has been obtained. Therefore, I think it reasonable to associate the anomalous energy with a nuclear process even thought such products were not sought in a particular experiment. Of course, if someone starts to see heat without detecting nuclear products, the question would need to be reexamined. In addition, the conditions within a typical CANR cell are not like those required by Miles to produce his effect. Like a detective trying to solve a crime, each clue is added to the other evidence until the probability of knowing the criminal is high enough to bring a conviction. Certainty is never required. Regards, Ed Jones Beene wrote: > From: "Jed Rothwell" > > > Schultz responded: "No, all I said was that I am not convinced that the > > mysterious "heat after death" incident (assuming that it happened at all) > > was not caused by a mundane event... > > > I responded that no such "mundane event" can occur, even in principle. No > > chemical reactions can come close. I asked him to list a candidate mundane > event... > > If Randell Mills is correct in his theory, and in the rapidly accumulating > body evidence that he offers in support of it (see > http://www.blacklightpower.com/), then the candidate reaction for this > energy release would be the shrinkage of the deuterium atom from what > traditional physics perceives to be its "ground state" to a lower energy > state. The energy limits for this kind of reaction are less than fusion but > perhaps several thousand times greater than chemical. > > And if Mills' cosmological evidence is correct, this candidate event is > indeed "mundane" in the sense that it is very common in our solar system > (supplying some significant fraction of our sun's energy) and is also > "non-nuclear." > > You may choose to ignore Mills' evidence, just as others on > sci.physics.fusion choose to ignore the evidence for LENR, but doesn't that > only place you into the same category of close mindedness that you seem to > find in their remarks. > > As Gene Mallove states: And we also learn that even cold fusion people can > become "skeptics" of sorts when one tries to point out other anomalies to > THEM. Look how long > it took to get serious discussion of heavy element transmutation properly > addressed at ICCF's! And this phenomenon was in their own back yard, so > to speak. > > Or from Ed Storms: ...In the process you have discovered a very important > facet of the human mind, all human minds. We see only what we wish to > see... > > Indeed. > > Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 16:59:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA20418; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:58:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:58:25 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:58:35 -0800 Message-Id: <1000166315.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> To: , Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xUP0L.0.r-4.XELdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------Included Message---------- > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:11:03 -0400 > From: "Jed Rothwell" > Reply-To: > To: > Subject: Report from sci.physics.fusion > [snip] > On September 14, 2001, Richard Schultz of the Department of Chemistry, > Bar-Ilan University wrote what may be the dumbest comment in the history of > cold fusion. To help enshrine his remarks for posterity, let me describe > them in detail, with an introduction for people who are not familiar with > cold fusion and some basic physics. You have to remember, Richard Schultz is the fellow who claims that science is all about authorities and that he is an authority. I cited a quote from a Nobel Prize winner in physics that said that authority is the enemy of science, in the hopes that Schultz would be able to see the logical inconsistancy of an authority greater than he speaking against authority. If authority was good, then we had an authoritative statement that authority was bad, so authority can't be good. Schultz was not capable of seeing this. Logic and reason are alien to this fellow. He also argued against the scientific method, which I found remarkable. His spiritual brother, Jim Carr, didn't even know that common ice is crystaline. He said it was amorphous. Many of the other "skeptics" there are just there to ridicule. It makes them feel "superior". See how some of them post, they NEVER post anything but ridicule. It isn't a forum worth much time. It's even dangerous. There are some vindictive bastards there who will try to get you fired if you disagree with them. All most all think that peer reviewed journals are essential to science. Bullshit. Journals are a way to communicate and peer review is suppose to be a way to publish the best. When the journals are more worried about their image and reputation than publishing good science, they become worthless rags. NOTHING in the scientific method says diddly about journals or "peer review". If you find the claims questionable, then science says you can DO THE EXPERIMENT YOURSELF! These people, by insisting on peer review, ADMIT that they are not capable of evaluating the work of scientist on their own. In short, you're not dealing with the flower of physics on sci.physics.fusion. Far from it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 17:26:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA31402; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:25:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:25:07 -0700 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:20:25 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"LMydF3.0.ag7.ZdLdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Edmund Storms" > A good point. However, this is why people insisted that nuclear products be > found, which they were. So far, no evidence supports the Miles process while > evidence for a variety of anomalous nuclear reactions has been obtained. I'm not saying that Mills' (this is Randell Mills not Miles) explanation is the only or the best explanation for the Arata and other CF results, or even that it is an adequate explanation - but only that it has a great deal of logic and consistency outside its focus (i.e. cosmology) and has not been satisfactorily challenged, despite the best efforts of people like the notorious Dr. Zimmerman, and it certainly should not be ignored on this forum - as Rothwell has apparently chosen to do. Several points that you may not have given adequate thought to: 1) Mills offers us not only a non-chemical altenative for fusion in his theory, but, given that some nuclear ash (i.e tritium) has been found, his theory can be stretched to offer up an easier mechanism to explain that what appears as fusion, i.e. it is D + deuterino yielding tritium (See Robin's previous post) - a reaction that is easier to fit into the parameters on hand than are the alternative classical "deuterium only" reactions. 2) Mills has collected the shrunken hydrogen hydrides and has had them independently analyzed using NMR. See his site for these results. 3) Mills has performed extensive EUV spectroscopy. According to some experts, this is the most single most important evidence for his theory - it provides a clear determinant that a previously unknown reaction has taken place. There is little if any similar evidence (high energy photon evidence) for LENR. 4) Mills offers voluminous cosmological spectral evidence for sub-ground state hydrogen. On the negative side, there is the failure of Scott Little to replicate, and the lack of a commercial product some six months now after it was expected. > Therefore, I think it reasonable to associate the anomalous energy with a > nuclear process even thought such products were not sought in a particular > experiment. Perhaps some of it is classical nuclear. There could be two mechanisms at work. Maybe even more than two. > Of course, if someone starts to see heat without detecting nuclear > products, the question would need to be reexamined. Check his site. He has many instances of what is offered as independent "excess heat" proof from top labs, going back 10 years, although I am not at all convinced that it is independent. > In addition, the conditions within a typical CANR cell are not like those required by Miles > to produce his effect. Like a detective trying to solve a crime, each clue is > added to the other evidence until the probability of knowing the criminal is > high enough to bring a conviction. Certainty is never required. Yes. The "totality of the evidence" is what we are groping for, since nothing is clear-cut thus far. That is why it is a mistake to be close-minded about any theory that promises so much as does Mills' - even if he is wrong in some of the details. For me at least, the evidence from BLP is at least as convincing, if not more so, than for any other single ongoing CANR/LENR research project, although in absolute numbers, of course, there is far more out there in terms of quantity of research, as opposed to quality, for P&F Pd-D2O reactions, than for the hydrino. And few others have the staff, large laboratory, sophisticated equipment, or financial backing that Mills enjoys. I certainly wish that you would give the Mills approach a shot in your own work. His Ar/H/Sr plasma cell is documented on his site and is reportedly a breakthrough over former electrolysis techniques. Do you have access to any kind of spectroscopy resources (EUV) ? Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 17:26:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA31670; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:25:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:25:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3B9D5842.CCB58825 enter.net> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:18:10 -0400 From: David Rosignoli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nick Reiter CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hemisphere Capacitor Research References: <000901c13406$645932e0$8b3dee3f User> <003301c1346c$7fb27a40$323dee3f@User> <3B9C1A6F.38A1FED9@enter.net> <002901c139e7$d43bc500$df3dee3f@User> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Kki3G1.0.gk7.KeLdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Nick, Thanks for the feedback. I'm still scratching my head, trying to figure out how you can go through experiments so quickly. Scott Little I can see - he does it full time. Just envious ;-) I'm not tackling this just yet, although I want to. I'm on the look out for ball bearings, pulleys, and belts (if you know of any sources, let me know). I've gotten side tracked looking at rotors and motors of the unusual kind. A few comments: - If you want a decent conductive paint, you can try Nickel Paint that Newark Elec. sells. It has nickel particles embedded in it and is very conductive. - I'm in the middle of a metallic paint conductivity test of different standard hobby paints. Although much less conductive than what you used, they do offer more conductivity than plastics. I'll let you know the results. - Air jetting? I have often been bothered by the claim that some people make about the BB effect that using a plastic bag around the apparatus will prevent any ion wind movement. I suppose if you had a conductive closed container around it, that would cinch it. - Do you have access to a bell jar? It seems to me your apparatus is just small enough to fit inside one. - http://sonatech.com/ is the URL for Channel Industries - Couldn't find Atcheson Colloids on the Web. - Also, are you aware of the Milne's experiment? Milnes published a paper - the journal name escapes me - where he took a bucket of oil and placed 2 cups suspended in the oil. Each cup had salt water in it. A high voltage generator was connected to each cup with vertical electrodes suspended in the salt water. Using a rectified high voltage center tap transformer connected to a variable resistor, he was able to variable the potential on each cup and notice the effects. (From my recollection) Here are his results: Cup1 Cup2 Result + + Repulsion - - Repulsion + - - + The last two gave the weirdest results. Depending on the magnitude, the cups would somtimes be attracted to each other. Other times, one cup (say Cup1) would be attracted to the other (Cup2), while Cup2 would be repelled by Cup1! So the two cups would move forward. The movement of the cups was small, and there is the possibility of attraction of the cups to the wall of the bucket. So, I am not ruling out artifacts. (If someone wants to replicate this experiment, let us know the results.) However, it is important to note here that the magnitude of one electrodes potential with respect to the other may be critical in achieving results. Very little is mentioned on this in "electrogravitics" type experiments. Something to try in your next experiment. Nick Reiter wrote: > > Dave; > > Thanks for keeping up on this project. This past week, and this weekend, I > was in close communication with Scott Little, who did do some initially > positive replications and then between he and I, found a potential artifact > due to charged air jetting. Another old member (or former member?) of Vort > also gave very good suggestions that paralleled this as well. However, we > have not pinned it entirely, due to weight change effects with a variety of > geometries, some of which don't seem conducive to the air jet model. So > while Scott identified a real (though trickier than one would have thought) > artifact, the effects may still be lurking as well. So thus, the invite is > still on for others to work with this, and try their own versions. > Please see the below inserted notes**** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 19:03:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA05694; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:01:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:01:58 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:01:37 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA05643 Resent-Message-ID: <"wEpmj1.0.rO1.L2Ndx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:20:25 -0700: [snip] >I'm not saying that Mills' (this is Randell Mills not Miles) explanation is >the only or the best explanation for the Arata and other CF results, or even >that it is an adequate explanation - Agreed. [snip] >Several points that you may not have given adequate thought to: >1) Mills offers us not only a non-chemical altenative for fusion in his >theory, but, given that some nuclear ash (i.e tritium) has been found, his >theory can be stretched to offer up an easier mechanism to explain that what >appears as fusion, i.e. it is D + deuterino yielding tritium (See Robin's >previous post) - a reaction that is easier to fit into the parameters on >hand than are the alternative classical "deuterium only" reactions. [snip] It also has something else going for it with regard to Mizuno's 85 MJ. In a large block of Pd, any deuterinos formed will find it much more difficult to escape than if formed on the surface, hence are more likely to undergo multiple shrinkages, and eventually be small enough to undergo fusion reactions in a reasonable time. IMO this is Mills' major stumbling block at the moment. Too many of the hydrinos formed escape before they yield anywhere near the energy they are capable of yielding. Note that at least one lot of garage inventors claim to have reproduced the Papp engine process with a modified gasoline engine. Evidence IMO of what can be done when the hydrinos don't get a chance to escape. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 10 19:42:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA21534; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:41:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:41:26 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:41:05 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA21494 Resent-Message-ID: <"4iHf92.0.KG5.LdNdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Second copy: First copy gobbled up by internet trolls. ;) In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:20:25 -0700: [snip] >I'm not saying that Mills' (this is Randell Mills not Miles) explanation is >the only or the best explanation for the Arata and other CF results, or even >that it is an adequate explanation - Agreed. [snip] >Several points that you may not have given adequate thought to: >1) Mills offers us not only a non-chemical altenative for fusion in his >theory, but, given that some nuclear ash (i.e tritium) has been found, his >theory can be stretched to offer up an easier mechanism to explain that what >appears as fusion, i.e. it is D + deuterino yielding tritium (See Robin's >previous post) - a reaction that is easier to fit into the parameters on >hand than are the alternative classical "deuterium only" reactions. [snip] It also has something else going for it with regard to Mizuno's 85 MJ. In a large block of Pd, any deuterinos formed will find it much more difficult to escape than if formed on the surface, hence are more likely to undergo multiple shrinkages, and eventually be small enough to undergo fusion reactions in a reasonable time. IMO this is Mills' major stumbling block at the moment. Too many of the hydrinos formed escape before they yield anywhere near the energy they are capable of yielding. Note that at least one lot of garage inventors claim to have reproduced the Papp engine process with a modified gasoline engine. Evidence IMO of what can be done when the hydrinos don't get a chance to escape. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 11 09:08:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA30021; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:07:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:07:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:07:22 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Forum for Physics Educators Subject: NYC World trade center destroyed, 9AM this morning In-Reply-To: <0GJH00143KZVJL mailgate1.nau.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"f7yEo2.0.-K7.zQZdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See below ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/worldtrade.crash/story.html NEW YORK (CNN) -- Terrorists struck the United States Tuesday morning in harrowing, widespread attacks that included at least three commercial jet crashes into significant buildings. In the first attack, a plane hit the north tower of the World Trade Center in Manhattan shortly before 9 a.m., followed by another plane into the second tower about 20 minutes later. Both towers later collapsed. About an hour later, a plane crashed into the Pentagon, part of which later collapsed. American Airlines told CNN that it lost two planes in "tragic accidents:" Flight 11 from Boston with 81 passengers and 11 crew aboard and Flight 77 from Washington Dulles airport with 58 passengers and six crew aboard. Both planes were en route to Los Angeles United Airlines Flight 93 airliner headed from Newark, New Jersey, to San Francisco, crashed near Somerset, Pennsylvania -- police said initial reports indicated no survivors. United also confirmed the crash of Flight 175 from Boston to Los Angeles. The Pentagon, the White House, the State Department, the Justice Department, the Capitol, the CIA and all other government buildings in Washington evacuated. President Bush cancelled an appearance in Florida to return to Washington, calling the crashes "apparent terrorist attacks" and "a national tragedy." In the first ever national ground stop of aircraft, all flights nationwide have been stopped at their departure airports. All international flights were diverted to Canada. In New York, more than 10,000 rescue personnel rushed to the scene. The entire downtown area of Manhattan was evacuated as far north as Rockefeller Center, according to an official at an emergency command post. Israel has evacuated all its missions around the world. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta was evacuated. CDC was preparing bioterrorism teams in case they become necessary. Philadelphia landmarks were also evacuated. In Chicago, the Sears Tower was evacuated; United Nations in New York evacuated. The New York Port Authority said it had closed all bridges and tunnels into the city. U.S. stock markets were closed after the New York attacks. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 11 10:14:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA29668; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:13:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:13:56 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: The Chickens are coming home to roost. Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:21:49 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"MwdkV.0.OF7.KPadx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All. I'm standing on the roof of my house now, watching what's left of the World Trade Center blacken the skies over Manhattan. Transportation has been closed, although the mood on the streets is pretty calm. Huge crowds of people are moving uptown on the highways; and I fear that a few of my friends who still work downtown near the WTC are dead. I was asleep when the planes hit the towers, and all the TV stations are dead except for ch 2 which broadcasts out of the empire state building. The live feed is impressive; downtown around Wall St. looks like Pompeii. I don't really know what else to say, except the morbid thought... "If only we had that star wars missle shield in place, none of this would have happened..." Is it just me, or have our leaders gone completely insane? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 11 13:46:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02591; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:41:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:41:08 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Chickens are coming home to roost. Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:50:24 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091116502400.01207 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA02565 Resent-Message-ID: <"BQzkz3.0.Oe.aRddx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tuesday 11 September 2001 10:21, Keith Nagel wrote: > Hi All. > > I'm standing on the roof of my house now, watching what's > left of the World Trade Center blacken the skies over > Manhattan. Transportation has been closed, although > the mood on the streets is pretty calm. Huge crowds of > people are moving uptown on the highways; and I fear > that a few of my friends who still work downtown near > the WTC are dead. I was asleep when the planes hit the > towers, and all the TV stations are dead except for > ch 2 which broadcasts out of the empire state building. > The live feed is impressive; downtown around Wall St. > looks like Pompeii. > > I don't really know what else to say, except the morbid > thought... > > "If only we had that star wars missle shield in place, > none of this would have happened..." > > Is it just me, or have our leaders gone completely insane? > > K. > K, Just wait a bit. The wealthy power structure of our country was the target of this one. They did two things, and we should not lose sight of the lesser. This 'lesser' is that our aircraft security system has been shown to be a pitiful sham and a fraud upon the public that it purported to protect. How is it that all those aircraft, flying bombs if one looks at them in a certain way, were taken so easily. Men armed only with knives may have taken one and crashed it into one of the Trade Center towers. How about that! Maybe only two or three men armed with ninety-eight cent knives take over an airliner costing millions of dollars in the face of a planeload of lilly livered executives who no doubt went like sheep to the slaughter. And that is probably what those passengers were, too! Think of it! It is past Labor Day so the tourists are already gone home; it is on a Tuesday, a workday, on a plane from one workplace to another, and the plane is not full. Those 'businessmen' were no better than the Cambodians who were slaughtered in Phnom Penh in 1975, weak and soft. Surely if they had made a determined charge on the criminals, that would have ended it right there. Instead, each one of them thought only of his own rich, overpaid and overpriviledged ass first. In 'saving' their own lives individually, they only doomed them all collectively. So that is the real worth of all the riches that bankers have built in the face of poor New Yorkers. Over fifty thousand dead all for the want of some old fashioned guts to take on two lunatics armed with dime store knives. No star wars missile shield would have saved us from this one. Planes fly over cities here and around the world all the time. The British may have an answer. Ban flights over cities and shoot down without warning or mercy all who try. The next shoe to drop will be to see if the US government has any more guts than the sheep aboard those doomed planes. We should fry Iraq and Afghanistan in a sea of nuclear fire enough to burn for 100 thousand years. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 11 14:42:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28951; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:42:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:42:05 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010911172111.02b53008 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:28:38 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion In-Reply-To: <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ir8bB1.0.H47.jKedx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >You may choose to ignore Mills' evidence, just as others on >sci.physics.fusion choose to ignore the evidence for LENR . . . I, for one, do not ignore it. I do not understand it yet, because he has not built simple heat producing devices lately. I do not believe it yet, because it has not been widely replicated. When he builds a simple device and 5 or 10 other researchers verify it, and it seems to prove his super-chemistry instead of a more conventional nuclear effect, then I will be pleased to believe it. >As Gene Mallove states: And we also learn that even cold fusion people can >become "skeptics" of sorts when one tries to point out other anomalies to >THEM. Look how long it took to get serious discussion of heavy element >transmutation properly addressed at ICCF's! Gene is wrong about that. I think he overgeneralized. Some CF skeptics took a while, but most were merely reserving judgment, waiting for better evidence. It did not take long for the transmutations to show up at the ICCF conferences. Given the slow pace of these experiments, no one should be criticized for holding back a year or two. There should be no rush to judgement. Gene has occasionally rushed to positive judgement when he should have held back, and waited for more evidence and more independent confirmations. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 11 14:42:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29010; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:42:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:42:12 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010911172858.02aea330 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:42:31 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, , From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion In-Reply-To: <1000166315.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"tM6IR.0.857.pKedx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: >You have to remember, Richard Schultz is the fellow who claims that >science is all about authorities and that he is an authority. I >cited a quote from a Nobel Prize winner in physics that said that >authority is the enemy of science, in the hopes that Schultz would >be able to see the logical inconsistancy of an authority greater >than he speaking against authority. . . . Yes, he believes authority is infallible, and that science has always been perfected -- at least for the last 70 years or so. For example, I pointed out to him that when Townes invented the maser, von Neumann, Bohr, and several other "highly respected physicists" denied it could work. Townes thinks Bohr never did accept it. Schultz flat out refused to believe that heroic men of science could make such a mistake. I quoted the Townes autobiography, and gave the page numbers (64 - 75), but he will not accept the account written by Townes. >It isn't a forum worth much time. It's even dangerous. There are some >vindictive bastards there who will try to get you fired if you disagree >with them. They can't hurt me, fortunately. >In short, you're not dealing with the flower of physics on >sci.physics.fusion. Far from it. Perhaps these are extremists. On the other hand, the back of Taubes book has five glowing endorsements written by four Nobel Laureates and the Chairman of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. And when people at the APS attacked CF and promised to purge anyone who believes it -- that is, fire them from their jobs -- they were met by cheering and sustained applause. Not one person there suggested that such behavior is unethical, or against the traditions of academia. So perhaps the the viewpoints expressed in s.p.f. are representative of the mainstream. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 11 14:42:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29198; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:42:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:42:30 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: The Chickens are coming home to roost. Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:50:12 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <01091116502400.01207 tyrannosaur> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"vi8KR3.0.587.6Ledx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Standing Bear writes: > No star wars missile shield would have saved us from >this one. Planes fly over cities here and around the world all >the time. The British may have an answer. Ban flights over >cities and shoot down without warning or mercy all who try. Ah yes, a complete police state. That's an excellent solution. I guess you're right about the missile defense system. Funny, I always thought poor third world people had advanced ICBM missiles and sophisticated command and control apparatus to target and destroy us. You mean they don't? But George Bush said they did! > The next shoe to drop will be to see if the US government >has any more guts than the sheep aboard those doomed planes. >We should fry Iraq and Afghanistan in a sea of nuclear fire >enough to burn for 100 thousand years. Perhaps this kind of thinking was what caused the incident in the first place? I apologize for soapboxing here, but I'm at ground zero of the worst terrorist attack in US history and I can't help but think that around this time last year we were as close as ever to a peace agreement in Israel. How far we have fallen since the last election... Just saw on Ch2, WTC building 7 has collapsed. That's the entire WTC complex now, destroyed. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 11 14:44:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29034; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:42:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:42:15 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010911170745.02af3d90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:19:19 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Please tone it down, Mr. Bear In-Reply-To: <01091116502400.01207 tyrannosaur> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"A4FBv1.0.E47.jKedx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Standing Bear wrote: >On Tuesday 11 September 2001 10:21, Keith Nagel wrote: > I don't really know what else to say, except the morbid > > thought... > > > > "If only we had that star wars missle shield in place, > > none of this would have happened..." > No star wars missile shield would have saved us from >this one. I suppose that was Keith's point. He was being sarcastic. I myself hope that this incident will put the brakes on the Star Wars project. > The next shoe to drop will be to see if the US government >has any more guts than the sheep aboard those doomed planes. >We should fry Iraq and Afghanistan in a sea of nuclear fire >enough to burn for 100 thousand years. That would be an unthinkable atrocity. Kindly refrain from such extreme, bloodthirsty outbursts here. Perhaps you sincerely mean it, but I think your comments are inflammatory and inappropriate to a science forum, which is supposed to be polite society and mainly apolitical. In any case, at this stage no one has any idea who -- if anyone -- was behind the attack. It might have been four lunatics acting on their own. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 11 15:20:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA14433; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:19:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:19:52 -0700 Message-ID: <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com><005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9@cpq> Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:23:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"-NGaW2.0.MX3.8uedx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > 3) Mills has performed extensive EUV spectroscopy. According to some > experts, this is the single most important evidence for his theory - it > provides a clear determinant that a previously unknown reaction has taken > place. There is little if any similar evidence (high energy photon evidence) > for LENR. - The latest Mills' papers give very strong experimental support for the energy levels and reactions that his theory predicts. I have 25+ years of experience with low energy gas plasmas and some knowledge of EUV spectroscopy ( we used it to evaluate gas / phosphor coupling for color displays ). I find no reasonable explanation for Mills' results based on conventional reactions. I think that Mills' theory has problems, but it seems to predict many of the energy levels for normal atoms and "hydrinos" correctly. > > On the negative side, there is the failure of Scott Little to replicate, and > the lack of a commercial product some six months now after it was expected. - There were serious problems in Scott Little's potassium / W filament / hydrogen experiment. Neither Scott's failure to replicate nor Mills difficulty in producing a commercial product are surprising. Scott should definitely try reproducing the experiment in "Measurement of Hydrogen Balmer Line Broadening and Thermal Power Balances of Noble Gas-Hydrogen Discharge Plasmas" at http://www.blacklightpower.com/techpapers.html . This experiment is quite similar to Vince Cockeram's IMO successful H2K DC discharge experiments but with strontium replacing the potassium. The experiment appears very easy to reproduce and has large percentage heat gains (> 100% excess) at 50 watt power levels without requiring 600C vessel wall temperatures. - Ed Storms wrote: > > In addition, the conditions within a typical CANR cell are not like those >> required by Mills to produce his effect. - The Mills effects have been obtained in a wide variety of physical systems. Based on the ionization energies for palladium, it is close to the energy level required to serve as a Mills catalyst. This match might be sufficient if high enough D loading changed the continuum energy level slightly. Mills CAF theory would predict a possible nuclear reaction for this system due to the presence of deuterium. I have some further observations about the implications of Mills' latest experiments for LENR that I do not feel free to discuss on a public list. Contact me by private email if you are interested. Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 11 15:27:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA15901; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:23:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:23:30 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010911180034.02aed648 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:23:48 -0400 To: , From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: The Chickens are coming home to roost. In-Reply-To: References: <01091116502400.01207 tyrannosaur> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"C10w73.0.Nu3.Xxedx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >I apologize for soapboxing here, but I'm at ground zero >of the worst terrorist attack in US history and I can't >help but think that around this time last year we were >as close as ever to a peace agreement in Israel. How far >we have fallen since the last election... Surely, you can't blame the U.S. Administration for that! I am no friend of the Republicans, but I think the people in the Middle East have caused their own problems. There is plenty of blame to go around out there. It reminds me the Prince's last lines in Romeo and Juliet: Where be these enemies? Capulet, Montage, See what a scourge is laid upon your hate, That heaven finds means to kill your joys with love! And I, for winking at you, discords too, Have lost a brace of kinsmen. All are punish'd. In any case, we must not jump to conclusions. I remember after the Kansas City bombing citizens and the police assumed that "Arab terrorists" were behind it, and some middle eastern people in the U.S. were rousted by police, detained and unfairly accused. It turned out to be a homegrown terrorist. On the other hand, the Times reports that, "Thousands of Palestinians celebrated today's terror attacks in the United States, chanting 'God is Great' and distributing sweets to passers-by . . ." They do not have a flair for public relations. It says Yassir Arafat says he was "horrified." http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-2001314505,00.html Sigh . . . This miserable business proves how vulnerable high tech society is. I do not think the problem can easily be fixed. It may grow worse. It is one of the prices we pay for our way of life. U.S. nuclear power plant reactor buildings are supposedly engineered to withstand a direct hit by a large airplane. Until today, that seemed like melodramatic excess to me. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 11 15:41:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23522; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:40:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:40:44 -0700 Message-ID: <001f01c13b13$0e235ae0$5136a6d8 ronscomputer> From: "Ron Marshall" To: Subject: Re: The Chickens are coming home to roost. Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:42:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C13AE9.246256A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"yWZSa2.0.Ol5.hBfdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C13AE9.246256A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Standing Bear, now is not the time for this kind of nonsense. Ron Marshall ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C13AE9.246256A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Standing Bear, now is not the time for = this kind of=20 nonsense.
 
Ron Marshall
 
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C13AE9.246256A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 11 16:37:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA19108; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:36:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:36:44 -0700 Message-ID: <01C13AE0.5FF6CE20.dequickert ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: The Chickens are coming home to roost. Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 16:38:35 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8-99d3.0.Og4.B0gdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > Standing Bear writes: > >We should fry Iraq and Afghanistan in a sea of nuclear fire > >enough to burn for 100 thousand years. > > Perhaps this kind of thinking was what caused the incident > in the first place? Exactly. I abhor violent tactics such as we saw today, but the reasons for them are clear. The best deterrent to terrorism is to not be a target, and our country by its actions has made itself a prime target. Like like it or not, much of the world considers the United States to be the world's biggest bully and terrorist itself. Examples: the inhumane blockade and defacto murder of the people of Iran; the military and monetary support of Israel's attacks on Palestinian civilians (in refugee camps!), the funding and support of the Contras and other right-wing murder squads in Central America... the list goes on and on. The _only_ defense against a militarily invincible, aggressive enemy is guerrilla (ie terrorist) tactics. And "getting them back" will only draw more fire. The best way to prevent more attacks is to quit being such a beligerent, anti-human-rights, what's-good-for-business-is-what-we-support, damn the common people, bully; and to put much of that money that goes into "defense" into helping common people around the world get out from under the feet of their oppressors - rather than being one. Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 11 19:28:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA03829; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:27:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:27:55 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:27:35 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com><005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9@cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626@varisys.com> In-Reply-To: <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA03790 Resent-Message-ID: <"fRq6T2.0.gx.hWidx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to George Holz's message of Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:23:23 -0400: [snip] >Based on the ionization energies for palladium, it is close to >the energy level required to serve as a Mills catalyst. This match >might be sufficient if high enough D loading changed the continuum energy level slightly. [snip] As I have pointed out before on this forum, a more likely catalyst is hydrogen (deuterium) itself, according to: 3 x D -> deuterino[1/2] + 2 x D+ + 2 e- The function of the Pd then is to separate the D molecules into atoms, and provide a site where they can combine in a hydrino forming reaction as above. Of course the same mechanism can also facilitate further shrinkages e.g. 2 x D + deuterino[1/5] -> deuterino[1/6] + 2 x D+ + 2 e- and disproportionation reactions are also possible (i.e. where two deuterino react, resulting in one of the two shrinking even further). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 11 21:51:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA04469; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:45:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 21:45:50 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010911231203.00a23510 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:52:40 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: RE: The Chickens are coming home to roost. In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010911180034.02aed648 pop.mindspring.com> References: <01091116502400.01207 tyrannosaur> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Ya0jO2.0.l51.zXkdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:23 PM 9/11/01 -0400, you wrote: >In any case, we must not jump to conclusions. I remember after the Kansas City >bombing citizens and the police assumed that "Arab terrorists" were behind it, and Jed: Whoops... That was Oklahoma City and I am a bit closer to that ground zero... But you are absolutely correct about jumping to conclusions. How about we wait on a couple of flight recorders. Yes lets not forget the cockpit audio. That should give up plenty of evidence. Should be easy enough to find on the Pentagon and Pennsylvania impacts. The perpetrator likely wants us to stew a bit before exposing himself. We all want retribution and we want it right now... but lets not go off and bomb the wrong country. Besides we might just find out the problem is in our own back yard. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 12 07:59:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA09646; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:59:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:59:02 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010912103559.00aa0528 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:46:11 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: The Chickens are coming home to roost. In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010911231203.00a23510 pop.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010911180034.02aed648 pop.mindspring.com> <01091116502400.01207 tyrannosaur> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"LEWSL.0.eM2.sWtdx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: > >In any case, we must not jump to conclusions. I remember after the > Kansas City >bombing citizens and the police assumed that "Arab > terrorists" were behind it, and > >Jed: > >Whoops... That was Oklahoma City and I am a bit closer to that ground zero... Right. Yes. I was not thinking too straight. I feel ghoulish bringing this up, but most of the damage and the final building collapse was caused by the heat from jet fuel, not the impact. As I have pointed out in the past, most casualties in air accidents are caused by burning fuel, which CF would eliminate. A brief technical description of building collapse can be found at slate.msn.com, "Why the Skyscrapers Collapsed," but it is not on line at this moment. Direct address: http://slate.msn.com/Code/explainer/explainer.asp?Show=9/11/2001&idMessage=8265 - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 12 16:38:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA03281; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:37:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:37:26 -0700 Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:32:48 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"073o51.0.Bp.s6_dx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Need a little distraction from the most frightening day in recent U.S. history? Let's dream up the perfect CF experiment. Some interesting possibilities emerge from reanalyzing/ combining several recent observations that have been made involving the Mills' hydrino reaction - juxtaposed against the better known Pd-D systems, in order to determine exactly what are the underlying mechanism/s for excess heat that are found in "cold fusion." > George Holz : Based on the ionization energies for palladium, it is close to the energy level required to serve as a Mills catalyst. This match might be sufficient if high enough D loading changed the continuum energy level slightly. > Robin van Spaandonk: A more likely catalyst is hydrogen (deuterium) itself, according to: 3 x D -> deuterino[1/2] + 2 x D+ + 2 e- . The function of the Pd then is to separate the D molecules into atoms and provide a site where they can combine in a hydrino forming reaction. Add to this the implications of the information that the "active site" in palladium systems is very near the surface. Does the Pd indeed serve the function of a virtual "anvil" rather than virtual "compression chamber"? i.e. does it temporarily immobilizes and expose a deuteron to reactive ions which are outside of the metal matrix in such a way that the deuteron's Coloumb barrier is altered, rather than to compress ions already in the matrix? This is one implication of the active-surface phenomenon. If so, and if both Mills and the CF researchers are partially correct, then perhaps the Pd-D system will perform better when exposed to predominantly Argon ions than when exposed to D ions. Mills gets his best results with a ratio of about 20 argon to 1 hydrogen (reportedly a 1000-1 gain). Do we know if Mills has ever used D-loaded Pd in his experiments? Doubtful. Perhaps he is too stubborn to use CF techniques and CF researchers are too stubborn to use his techniques. Could it be that simple? An ideal demonstration for CF, the one that will convince many (but never all) skeptics, is NOT the one that takes weeks of data logging calorimetry, as in typical CF, but instead it is one in which you add a few watts of electrical power to a closed system for a few tens of seconds and then measure its temperature gain. Ideally, you want to show a 10:1 or more gain against a control that is identical except for the active materials, none of which are oxidizers. "Absurd," you may be saying, but this simple demonstration would be possible if hydrogen shrinkage, not fusion, is the most prevalent mechanism behind CF...and if you maximize the experiment for this mechanism.The rationale for this belief is that the cross-section for a shrinkage reaction (deuterino) is surely orders of magnitude greater than for a true D+D fusion, since its energy threshold is orders of magnitude less (a few tens of ev rather than a few 10,000 ev). For gas/plasma phase systems, then, one could combine the two techniques: active sites in Pd very near the surface using a Pd nanopowder and complete loading of D into the Pd (even using electrolysis for the loading), with the fact that Mills gets his best results with a 95:5 ratio of argon to hydrogen. Basically what I'm suggesting is an experiment that could determine what, if any, contribution to the excess heat observed in Pd cells is coming from the "shrinkage" of deuterium to a deuterino, rather than or in addition to D+D fusion (assuming both mechanisms contribute) and then to maximize for deuterinos. Begin by loading a Pd nanopowder completely with Deuterium, using any technique, but then substitute argon/D gas (95:5) for the D gas or heavy water in a sealed cell. This transfer might be difficult, but if doable would eliminate all this talk about recombination effects, since there would be no oxidizer anywhere in the system. A few grains of Sr metal, which will gasify, is optional depending upon whether Pd is a true Mills catalyst or not. Since Mills has found that Argon greatly increases reactivity (hydrino formation), this experiment when compared with the same setup using a non-Mills catalyst gas, say neon, would answer one question and then testing the residual gas/Pd for tritium would indicate the degree to which the true fusion reaction is involved. Plus this setup, like only a few others, would allow for using a sealed reactor. A benefit of using a sealed reactor together with a fully loaded Pd nanopowder and no oxidizer is that you can probably use much lower energy rf stimulation to ionize, rather than high current electrolysis (which is efficient for loading but inefficient for ionization). The Mills moderate voltage plasma (~600 v. ?) is a safer bet, but inasmuch as you only need to get enough of a field gradient to induce ionization, rf is probably likely to show the largest heat gain per watt of input. But then again, maybe that idea is like taking too many chances - trying to cram too many changes together at the start. Just some off-the-wall thoughts offered as a distraction against the depressing world situation. Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 12 17:12:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA18282; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:11:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:11:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3B9FEBF7.AE478622 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:13:52 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LKnqo3.0.lS4.Rc_dx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Several conflicts exist between experience and the proposed formation of hydrinos. First, when helium was measured, the amount corresponded very closely with the amount of measured energy based on a fusion reaction. If hydrinos were being formed, this would not have been the case. Second, when a hydrino is formed it releases orphaned oxygen to the gas. In a closed cell, the hydrino has two choices. It can either remain free or it can combine with the oxygen. If it remains free, oxygen pressure would increase as long as excess energy was being made. This is not observed. On the other hand, it could react with oxygen to make hydrino water. Mills says this can not happen and no change in the properties of D2O has been noted. Finally, it could revert back to a normal D2 and combine with O2. If this happened, no net energy would result. In conclusion, the behavior of the cells making energy are not consistent with hydrino production. Ed Storms Jones Beene wrote: > Need a little distraction from the most frightening day in recent U.S. > history? Let's dream up the perfect CF experiment. > > Some interesting possibilities emerge from reanalyzing/ combining several > recent observations that have been made involving the Mills' hydrino > reaction - juxtaposed against the better known Pd-D systems, in order to > determine exactly what are the underlying mechanism/s for excess heat that > are found in "cold fusion." > > > George Holz : Based on the ionization energies for palladium, it is close > to the energy level required to serve as a Mills catalyst. This match might > be sufficient if high enough D loading changed the continuum energy level > slightly. > > > Robin van Spaandonk: A more likely catalyst is hydrogen (deuterium) > itself, according to: 3 x D -> deuterino[1/2] + 2 x D+ + 2 e- . The > function of the Pd then is to separate the D molecules into atoms and > provide a site where they can combine in a hydrino forming reaction. > > Add to this the implications of the information that the "active site" in > palladium systems is very near the surface. Does the Pd indeed serve the > function of a virtual "anvil" rather than virtual "compression chamber"? > i.e. does it temporarily immobilizes and expose a deuteron to reactive ions > which are outside of the metal matrix in such a way that the deuteron's > Coloumb barrier is altered, rather than to compress ions already in the > matrix? This is one implication of the active-surface phenomenon. > > If so, and if both Mills and the CF researchers are partially correct, then > perhaps the Pd-D system will perform better when exposed to predominantly > Argon ions than when exposed to D ions. Mills gets his best results with a > ratio of about 20 argon to 1 hydrogen (reportedly a 1000-1 gain). > > Do we know if Mills has ever used D-loaded Pd in his experiments? Doubtful. > Perhaps he is too stubborn to use CF techniques and CF researchers are too > stubborn to use his techniques. Could it be that simple? > > An ideal demonstration for CF, the one that will convince many (but never > all) skeptics, is NOT the one that takes weeks of data logging calorimetry, > as in typical CF, but instead it is one in which you add a few watts of > electrical power to a closed system for a few tens of seconds and then > measure its temperature gain. Ideally, you want to show a 10:1 or more gain > against a control that is identical except for the active materials, none of > which are oxidizers. > > "Absurd," you may be saying, but this simple demonstration would be possible > if hydrogen shrinkage, not fusion, is the most prevalent mechanism behind > CF...and if you maximize the experiment for this mechanism.The rationale for > this belief is that the cross-section for a shrinkage reaction (deuterino) > is surely orders of magnitude greater than for a true D+D fusion, since its > energy threshold is orders of magnitude less (a few tens of ev rather than a > few 10,000 ev). > > For gas/plasma phase systems, then, one could combine the two techniques: > active sites in Pd very near the surface using a Pd nanopowder and complete > loading of D into the Pd (even using electrolysis for the loading), with the > fact that Mills gets his best results with a 95:5 ratio of argon to > hydrogen. > > Basically what I'm suggesting is an experiment that could determine what, if > any, contribution to the excess heat observed in Pd cells is coming from > the "shrinkage" of deuterium to a deuterino, rather than or in addition to > D+D fusion (assuming both mechanisms contribute) and then to maximize for > deuterinos. Begin by loading a Pd nanopowder completely with Deuterium, > using any technique, but then substitute argon/D gas (95:5) for the D gas or > heavy water in a sealed cell. This transfer might be difficult, but if > doable would eliminate all this talk about recombination effects, since > there would be no oxidizer anywhere in the system. A few grains of Sr metal, > which will gasify, is optional depending upon whether Pd is a true Mills > catalyst or not. > > Since Mills has found that Argon greatly increases reactivity (hydrino > formation), this experiment when compared with the same setup using a > non-Mills catalyst gas, say neon, would answer one question and then testing > the residual gas/Pd for tritium would indicate the degree to which the true > fusion reaction is involved. > > Plus this setup, like only a few others, would allow for using a sealed > reactor. A benefit of using a sealed reactor together with a fully loaded > Pd nanopowder and no oxidizer is that you can probably use much lower energy > rf stimulation to ionize, rather than high current electrolysis (which is > efficient for loading but inefficient for ionization). The Mills moderate > voltage plasma (~600 v. ?) is a safer bet, but inasmuch as you only need to > get enough of a field gradient to induce ionization, rf is probably likely > to show the largest heat gain per watt of input. But then again, maybe that > idea is like taking too many chances - trying to cram too many changes > together at the start. > > Just some off-the-wall thoughts offered as a distraction against the > depressing world situation. > > Regards, > > Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 12 17:28:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA24452; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:27:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:27:39 -0700 Message-ID: <003a01c13beb$497bfba0$603dee3f User> From: "Nick Reiter" To: "vortex-L" Subject: An interesting site re: gravity wave detection Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:30:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"MJCkw1.0.-z5.xr_dx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Found this Italian website today, whilst looking for theories about graviton emission. The author claims that anomalous fluctuations exist in the current through a Wheatstone Bridge containing a CdS photo-resistor. These are apparently correlated to gravity wave producing events... http://www.omirp.it/ Interesting stuff. NR From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 12 19:41:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16995; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:40:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:40:48 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010912224142.00799100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:41:42 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Problem of hydrino:helium ratio In-Reply-To: <3B9FEBF7.AE478622 ix.netcom.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zwFWJ3.0.O94.mo1ex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >First, when helium was measured, the amount corresponded very closely with the >amount of measured energy based on a fusion reaction. If hydrinos were being >formed, this would not have been the case. Yes, there should be many more hydrinos than fusion helium atoms. I asked Mills about this several times, but I never got a satisfactory answer. He could not even tell me what the expected ratio should be. >Second, when a hydrino is formed it releases orphaned oxygen to the gas. In a >closed cell, the hydrino has two choices. It can either remain free or it can >combine with the oxygen. If it remains free, oxygen pressure would increase as >long as excess energy was being made. I may have brought up this issue too. Also, if there are free hydrino molecules (I presume they form hydrino molecules), why not recombine them on purpose, to form hydrino water, if such a thing is possible? I suppose that would be easier to preserve, transport, and observe, since they would not drift off into outer space, or whereever hydrinos are supposed to go. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 12 20:00:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA23860; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:59:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:59:41 -0700 Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:55:00 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"Vo-OE.0.hq5.S42ex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Edmund Storms" > First, when helium was measured, the amount corresponded very closely with the amount of measured energy based on a fusion reaction. If hydrinos were being formed, this would not have been the case. Greetings, My understanding of Mills theory, when expanded to encompass D+deuterino, is that helium in highly unlikely (except 3He as a decay product of T) . One can certainly assume that in cells where the amount of He is close to the amount of excess energy, then hydrinos have been totally eliminated from consideration. Your grasp of the literature is far superior, so correct this if it is wrong, but it seems to me that the experiments in which He correlates exactly with energy are in a distinct minority. Can you give me a references for those that correlate well? > Second, when a hydrino is formed it releases orphaned oxygen to the gas. Yes, in a heavy water cell. > If it remains free, oxygen pressure would increase as long as excess energy was being made. This is not observed. Has it really been looked for? How gas-tight are the cells you are referring to? Remember hydrino formation can release a thousand times more energy than combustion (according to RM) so we're not talking about much O2. Ed, I really hope that you will take some time to look at the newer material on Mills' site, as you seem to be focusing on his earlier experiments, which pale in comparison to the recent work. For many years now, he has given up on electrolysis altogether. Why? If you look beyond the trees for that forest, the one known as consumer marketing, it is apparently not imaginable that a viable candidate for any real-world product is possible even when you stretch everything in current CF to its limits. No consumer is going to shell out the big bucks for hot water, they want either kilowatts or torque. Mills made a major breakthrough when he discovered that the Ar/H/Sr combination in a cold plasma cell is robust enough to commercialize, and furthermore is amenable to direct conversion into electricity, something that can never happen in an electrolytic cell except through thermoelectrics which is 4% efficient or less at these temps - BUT commercialization is easier to imagine with Pd-D when efficiencies are at 60-90% (if it is a cold plasma cell) - so that even with Pd costing $1000/oz. it could be viable (so long as Pd isn't consumed). Direct conversion of plasma to electricity is a present reality, not quite mature but it doesn't require any leap of faith. Thermoelectric conversion is laughable by comparison. My personal feeling is that Mills may have intentionally neglected palladium-deuterium for these very important (to him) reasons: 1) It was not discovered by him and it preceded him (by only a year) 2) If indeed, D "shrinks" more efficiently than does plain hydrogen and if indeed, Pd were found to be a catalyst for that shrinkage, then Mills' whole patent base would be in jeopardy because of the prior P&F work . Furthermore, there is a basis to believe that D will eventually be shown to go below ground state more efficiently than plain hydrogen (some of the sub-quark ideas and some cosmological evidence points that way). I am also concerned that there may be several major camps out there in LENR world and each has partial answers, but each has stubbornly resisted borrowing from the other. For Mills it would likely be financial doom if sub ground state D turns out to be a major contributor to some forms of excess heat in CF, but at least he would get credit for the theory. For the rest of CF, who should care? Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 12 20:30:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA03961; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:29:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:29:16 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010912233013.00798de0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:30:13 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: More detailed engineering analysis of WTC damage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"clLXT2.0.kz.BW2ex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Off topic perhaps . . . but most of us are thinking about this. See: http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.htm A physicist on network TV said the airplane fuel was the equivalent of kiloton, that is, 1000 tons of TNT or 1/20th of the Hiroshima bomb. I ran the numbers and I think he is way off. One source says that model carries 100,000 gallons of fuel, but Boeing says it holds only 11,200 gallons, or 42,680 liters. See: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/757-200/product.html A liter of jet fuel is lighter than a kg, but anyway, this is close to 42,000 kg, which produces 1.8 million MJ. That equals about 63 tons of TNT, according to this conversion table: http://www.processassociates.com/process/convert/cf_all.htm Maybe the professor was including the kinetic energy? There cannot be much of that. Another way to do it is to convert 42 "equiv. ton of crude oil" on that table to "equiv. ton of TNT." The answer is 62 tons. Oil has more energy per kg than TNT, but TNT combusts more rapidly, exerting more instantaneous power. . . . in other news of the tragedy, I subscribe to Japanese national television (NHK). Readers might be interested to know that all programming has been preempted since Tuesday morning, and is devoted to news of the "terrorist attack." Five Japanese friends have called me to express condolences, including our friend Dr. Mizuno. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 12 20:49:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA12665; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:48:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:48:58 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [216.67.192.134] From: "Joe Champion" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010912233013.00798de0 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: More detailed engineering analysis of WTC damage by Jed Rothwell Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:48:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Sep 2001 03:48:42.0341 (UTC) FILETIME=[FB1B1150:01C13C06] Resent-Message-ID: <"M0D5y.0.p53.fo2ex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Say you, OH say you that our Japanesse friends send condolences......... But my father (who was stationed on the Maui) during the storm by the Japanesse lived! But the reality is -- it is a different point in history. Do we blame the parentage of the people of the disaster? Or, do we blame the PEOPLE! Don't try to wipe your ass with two types of toliet paper! Joe Champion View the New Reality! www.transmutation.com Email: jchampion citlink.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 12 21:24:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA28887; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:23:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:23:57 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:23:38 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6ia0qtk7l0343nkthovh64bsbvoddp3sum 4ax.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9@cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626@varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <3B9FEBF7.AE478622 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA28850 Resent-Message-ID: <"VMG1L3.0.B37.TJ3ex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:13:52 -0600: >Several conflicts exist between experience and the proposed formation of >hydrinos. > >First, when helium was measured, the amount corresponded very closely with the >amount of measured energy based on a fusion reaction. If hydrinos were being >formed, this would not have been the case. Whether or not this is true depends on two things. First, as pointed out previously, even if only 10% of hydrinos (deuterinos) were to eventually fuse, the energy from the fusion reaction would swamp the hydrino formation energy 100:1, so the 1% error would likely not be detected. IOW the resultant energy would *apparently* all be due to fusion. In the second place, hydrinos once formed have three choices, they can either shrink further, they can acquire an extra electron and become a negative ion, or they can return to hydrogen in a disproportionation reaction. In the latter case, we end up with fewer hydrinos that are more severely shrunken, and hydrogen ions (H+). If this latter process is prevalent in the system, then the hydrinos will eventually disappear altogether! The extremely shrunken hydrinos will all undergo fusion, and the rest will revert to hydrogen. Energy wise, this means that *all* of the energy released equates *exactly* to the fusion energy. This is because when fusion does eventually happen, some of the energy from the fusion reaction is absorbed by the hydrino in the expansion of the electron to it's normal size, and the amount of energy required for that purpose is precisely equal to the energy released during hydrino formation. IOW an imbalance will only be apparent if most hydrinos capture an electron early on in the shrinkage process, and become negative ions that bind their electrons with sufficient strength to ensure that they can't be removed. This can only happen when the hydrino has shrunk to level 5 (6?). At level > 15-16 fusion is almost instantaneous (according to our modifications to Mills' theory). > >Second, when a hydrino is formed it releases orphaned oxygen to the gas. While initially true, this only remains true if the hydrino ends up as a negative ion, or free hydrino. I don't think free hydrinos last very long in an electrolytic solution, so it's really only true for those which end up as negative ions. If Mills is wrong about the size of the radius for each energy level, then his calculations for the negative ions may be wrong too. > In a >closed cell, the hydrino has two choices. It can either remain free or it can >combine with the oxygen. Hydrinos form negative ions, and hence do not combine solely with oxygen. They do however combine with positive ions (e.g. metal ions, and H+), and could conceivably combine with oxygen as part of a lager molecule or ionic aggregate. >If it remains free, oxygen pressure would increase as >long as excess energy was being made. This is not observed. Which may just mean that e.g. disproportionation reactions are removing the hydrinos in favour of fusion reactions. > On the other >hand, it could react with oxygen to make hydrino water. Mills says this can >not happen and no change in the properties of D2O has been noted. Finally, it >could revert back to a normal D2 and combine with O2. If this happened, no net >energy would result. As shown above, it is possible to end up with only fusion and water, and yet have had hydrinos as an intermediary. (Note that there is still a very slight oxygen excess, matching the number of fusion reactions that have taken place). >In conclusion, the behavior of the cells making energy >are not consistent with hydrino production. > >Ed Storms [snip] Note this doesn't mean that hydrino formation is necessarily the only means of achieving fusion, but it certainly need not be ruled out. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 12 21:33:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA31512; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:31:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:31:22 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010912224743.00a27d50 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:38:15 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: RE: The Chickens are coming home to roost. In-Reply-To: <01C13AE0.5FF6CE20.dequickert ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"03wqq2.0.Ii7.QQ3ex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 04:38 PM 9/11/01 -0700, Dan Quickert wrote: >Keith Nagel wrote: > > Standing Bear writes: > > >We should fry Iraq and Afghanistan in a sea of nuclear fire > > >enough to burn for 100 thousand years. > > > > Perhaps this kind of thinking was what caused the incident > > in the first place? > >Exactly. I abhor violent tactics such as we saw today, but the reasons for >them are clear. The best deterrent to terrorism is to not be a target, and >our country by its actions has made itself a prime target. > >Like like it or not, much of the world considers the United States to be >the world's biggest bully and terrorist itself. Examples: the inhumane >blockade and defacto murder of the people of Iran; the military and >monetary support of Israel's attacks on Palestinian civilians (in refugee >camps!), the funding and support of the Contras and other right-wing murder >squads in Central America... the list goes on and on. > >The _only_ defense against a militarily invincible, aggressive enemy is >guerrilla (ie terrorist) tactics. And "getting them back" will only draw >more fire. The best way to prevent more attacks is to quit being such a >beligerent, anti-human-rights, what's-good-for-business-is-what-we-support, >damn the common people, bully; and to put much of that money that goes into >"defense" into helping common people around the world get out from under >the feet of their oppressors - rather than being one. > >Dan Quickert Dan: I had to calm down a bit before responding to this. I am sure that you would rather the calm response. I think you are looking only at the bad side of things. You call for justice and see only the prosecutors half truth. You mention the blockade of Iran but never mentioned the reasons for the blockade. You mentioned our support of Israel and forget about the hell bent cruelty and hate and bloodlust nurtured by the Palestine people. You mentioned the contra support and forgot about the drug lords who still heartlessly kill Americans for there own love of money. They blame Americas for there own inability to let go of a thousand generations of there own hatred. They blame America for there own refusal to put away there ignorance. But mostly they blame us for being on top. You see there is also envy. Whenever there is a chance they rush to America and ask for political sanctuary. You mentioned the funds we spend on defence and totally forgot the billions we spend on aide. You forgot to mention that American relief is first on scene in times of tragedy. An you forgot to mention that nobody lifts a finger to help us. That is until now. You also stated "much of the world considers the United States to be the world's biggest bully and terrorist itself." But now it seems that much of the world is in our camp. I will refer you to this editorial. > America: The Good Neighbor. > > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a > remarkable > editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television > commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as > printed in the Congressional Record: > > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most > generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the > earth.Germany, > Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the > debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and > forgave > other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the > interest on its remaining debts to the United States. > > When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who > propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the > streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. > > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries > in > to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. > Nobody helped. > > The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into > discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about > the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those > countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar > build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane > to > equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If > so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except > Russia fly American Planes? > > Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on > the > moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk > about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. > > You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not > once, but several times - and safely home again. > > You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store > window for everybody! to look at. > > Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our > streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are > getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. > > When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through > age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad > and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. > Both > are still broke. > > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other > people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced > to > the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during > the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm > one > Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will > come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are > entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their > present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those." > > Stand proud, America! > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 12 23:30:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA04775; Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:30:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:30:19 -0700 From: ConexTom aol.com Message-ID: <9c.1319accb.28d1ac63 aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:29:55 EDT Subject: Re: An interesting site re: gravity wave detection To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: ConexTom aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_9c.1319accb.28d1ac63_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 Resent-Message-ID: <"E8Qxu3.0.UA1.w95ex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_9c.1319accb.28d1ac63_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/12/01 6:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, reit ezworks.net writes: Gravity wave detector ! > http://www.omirp.it/ > Thank you for the reference to the web site, it was very informative and helpfull. Thomas Clark tom rhfweb.com www.rhfweb.com --part1_9c.1319accb.28d1ac63_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/12/01 6:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, reit ezworks.net
writes:

Gravity wave detector !

http://www.omirp.it/


Thank you for the reference to the web site, it was very informative and
helpfull.

Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com --part1_9c.1319accb.28d1ac63_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 06:48:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA09758; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 06:46:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 06:46:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host p399-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.193.145] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3BA0B70E.BEB788D4 ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:39:26 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jlnlabs yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Magnetization by sunlight Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"R5lrg2.0.OO2.tYBex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bable fish translation of a french page: Magnetization of steel by the direct white light of the sun by Mr. A. Baumgartner, Professor de Physique in Vienna Annals of Chemistry and Physics, Toma 33, 1826 By repeating last year, the experiments of Me Somerville on the magnetization of iron by the influence of the coloured light of the sun, I found a process which made a success of me more quickly and more surely than that of Mr. Morichini and Me Somerville. It led me to this result, that a piece of steel of the size of a needle to be knitted ordinary, whose one or more places are polished and the others without élat, and which one exposes to the influence of the direct and white light of the sun, takes a North Pole at each polished place and a pôlesud at each place not poliµ. Here of what consists the process. I took an English steel wire of the size of a needle to be knitted ordinary, and I heated it so as to entirely cover it black oxide; I then removed oxide in one or more places by means of an oiled stone, and I completed the polish with chalk and wood of lime, so as to form brilliant zones from approximately two to three lines length. Steel, thus prepared, exposed in a perfectly enlightened place of the sun, was, at the end of some time, strongly magnetic and in the manner indicated. Time, all equal things besides, appeared to depend on the intensity of sunlight; because when I concentrated sunlight surt the polished zones by means of a lens, I managed in few minutes to produce a magnetism which would have required several hours with the natural intensity of the sun. A piece of steel only polished to one of its extremoities, takes a North Pole at this end and a South Pole with the other. If the polished place occupies the medium, the two ends take a South Pole and the medium a North Pole. If the wire is, on the contrary, polished at its two ends, those take a North Pole and the medium a South Pole; finally, if the wire has several zônes polished, each one of them takes boreal magnetism, and the obscure zônes which separate the first from/to each other take lme southern magnetism. One can, in this manner, to develop an unspecified number of magnetic poles, provided that the steel wire has a length proportioned with the number of poles which one wants to have. I thus could easily obtain eight poles on a wire of eight inches length, but the truth of an unequal intensity. I constantly found that the extreme poles were stronger than the others, and than they preserved more logtemps magnetism. I could not succeed by the same means to magnetize steel wire entirely covered with oxide or perfectly polished, nor others wire which had polished lines in the direction their length. All the results from which I come to speak remained the same ones, in some manner that the filds were directed; àchaque experiment was repeated several times without giving different results. I do not need to say that before exposing each wire to the solar action, I had examined avaec care if it were magnetic or not, and that the experiments were made only with nonmagnetic wire. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 08:10:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15481; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:09:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:09:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:08:32 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: William Beaty Subject: Red cross $ donation sites In-Reply-To: <3BA02A75.9D3D4AF7 pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Wobk41.0.Gn3.6mCex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here are links if you want to make a donation. If you already use credit cards on Amazon or Paypal, you can use their links (and both companies have waived the usual fees they collect on donations.) http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-wtc/ http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/relief-outside"> http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/paypage/PKAXFNQH7EKCX/002-1836231-8892011 ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 09:40:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA01426; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:37:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:37:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA0D31A.7FC50251 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:39:12 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9@cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626@varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <6ia0qtk7l0343nkthovh64bsbvoddp3sum@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ANaIF.0.BM.z2Eex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:13:52 -0600: > > >Several conflicts exist between experience and the proposed formation of > >hydrinos. > > > >First, when helium was measured, the amount corresponded very closely with the > >amount of measured energy based on a fusion reaction. If hydrinos were being > >formed, this would not have been the case. > > Whether or not this is true depends on two things. > First, as pointed out previously, even if only 10% of hydrinos > (deuterinos) were to eventually fuse, the energy from the fusion > reaction would swamp the hydrino formation energy 100:1, so the 1% error > would likely not be detected. IOW the resultant energy would > *apparently* all be due to fusion. > In the second place, hydrinos once formed have three choices, they can > either shrink further, they can acquire an extra electron and become a > negative ion, or they can return to hydrogen in a disproportionation > reaction. > In the latter case, we end up with fewer hydrinos that are more severely > shrunken, and hydrogen ions (H+). > If this latter process is prevalent in the system, then the hydrinos > will eventually disappear altogether! The extremely shrunken hydrinos > will all undergo fusion, and the rest will revert to hydrogen. > Energy wise, this means that *all* of the energy released equates > *exactly* to the fusion energy. This is because when fusion does > eventually happen, some of the energy from the fusion reaction is > absorbed by the hydrino in the expansion of the electron to it's normal > size, and the amount of energy required for that purpose is precisely > equal to the energy released during hydrino formation. > > IOW an imbalance will only be apparent if most hydrinos capture an > electron early on in the shrinkage process, and become negative ions > that bind their electrons with sufficient strength to ensure that they > can't be removed. > This can only happen when the hydrino has shrunk to level 5 (6?). At > level > 15-16 fusion is almost instantaneous (according to our > modifications to Mills' theory). For fusion to take place, two hydrinos must find each other. The rate of two hydrino getting together will be proportional to the hydrino concentration squared. Therefore, such a fusion reaction can not take place until the hydrino concentration has increased to significant levels. Mills claims that hydrinos are so small as to be able to diffuse out of the cell. Therefore, by Mills own admission, a hydrino fusion reaction can not be a significant source of energy. On the other hand, the energy liberated during hydrino formation would add to the measured energy and could be a minor energy source. > > > > > >Second, when a hydrino is formed it releases orphaned oxygen to the gas. > > While initially true, this only remains true if the hydrino ends up as a > negative ion, or free hydrino. I don't think free hydrinos last very > long in an electrolytic solution, so it's really only true for those > which end up as negative ions. > If Mills is wrong about the size of the radius for each energy level, > then his calculations for the negative ions may be wrong too. I suggest you misunderstand the process. The build up of oxygen does not depend on what happens to the hydrino or its chemical state. Once oxygen is released from D2O, it will occupy an increased volume which will cause pressure within the cell to increase. Unless the O2 can recombine with D, either present as D2 or some form of hydrino, the pressure will continue to increase. A number of people, including my self, have measured the pressure change in such cells very accurately and have to seen the effect expected if hydrinos are a significant source of energy. > > > > In a > >closed cell, the hydrino has two choices. It can either remain free or it can > >combine with the oxygen. > > Hydrinos form negative ions, and hence do not combine solely with > oxygen. > They do however combine with positive ions (e.g. metal ions, and H+), > and could conceivably combine with oxygen as part of a lager molecule or > ionic aggregate. First of all, this chemical reaction would have to occur where all of the proposed reactants were present. This is only possible in the gas phase or in material in contact with the gas phase. Thus, we should see a build up of unusual products on the wall of the cell. This is not seen. > > > >If it remains free, oxygen pressure would increase as > >long as excess energy was being made. This is not observed. > > Which may just mean that e.g. disproportionation reactions are removing > the hydrinos in favour of fusion reactions. I do not understand what you mean by this statement. The pressure build up does not depend on what happens to the hydrinos as long as O2 is being produced. > > > > On the other > >hand, it could react with oxygen to make hydrino water. Mills says this can > >not happen and no change in the properties of D2O has been noted. Finally, it > >could revert back to a normal D2 and combine with O2. If this happened, no net > >energy would result. > > As shown above, it is possible to end up with only fusion and water, and > yet have had hydrinos as an intermediary. (Note that there is still a > very slight oxygen excess, matching the number of fusion reactions that > have taken place). For the fusion reaction to be significant, a large excess of free hydrinos must be present. It is the oxygen released by their formation which is the issue, not oxygen associated with the hydrinos that fused. > > > >In conclusion, the behavior of the cells making energy > >are not consistent with hydrino production. > > > >Ed Storms > [snip] > Note this doesn't mean that hydrino formation is necessarily the only > means of achieving fusion, but it certainly need not be ruled out. Formation of some hydrinos may be occurring within such cells. This possibility can not be ruled out. I'm only suggesting that their formation and subsequent fusion can not be the main source of anomalous energy produced by a P-F type cell. Hydrino formation and energy release within a gas discharge, such as Mills has proposed, may be possible, but is not the issue here. Ed > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 10:44:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01549; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:43:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:43:43 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010913133654.00aa3628 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:43:55 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Help was offered in 1906 earthquake In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010912224743.00a27d50 pop.mail.yahoo.com> References: <01C13AE0.5FF6CE20.dequickert ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"JauUC1.0.xN.E1Fex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Charles Ford quoted someone: >Can you name me even one time when someone else raced > > to > > the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during > > the San Francisco earthquake. Many nations offered help after the big 1906 earthquake, but President Roosevelt turned them down, with thanks. After the 1989 San Francisco, technical advice and engineering assistance was provided by experts from Japan and Russia, although I doubt there was any direct overseas foreign aid. In both cases, much of the money came from insurance companies, including large, overseas firms. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 12:04:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08179; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:02:08 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mHIyC1.0.c_1.d9Gex" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > From: "Edmund Storms" > > First, when helium was measured, the amount corresponded very closely > with the amount of measured energy based on a fusion reaction. If hydrinos > were being formed, this would not have been the case. > > Greetings, > > My understanding of Mills theory, when expanded to encompass D+deuterino, is > that helium in highly unlikely (except 3He as a decay product of T) . One > can certainly assume that in cells where the amount of He is close to the > amount of excess energy, then hydrinos have been totally eliminated from > consideration. > > Your grasp of the literature is far superior, so correct this if it is > wrong, but it seems to me that the experiments in which He correlates > exactly with energy are in a distinct minority. Can you give me a references > for those that correlate well? Check my website and the paper "Critical Evaluation of the Pons-Fleischmann Effect (Part 2)". (http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html) > > > > Second, when a hydrino is formed it releases orphaned oxygen to the gas. > > Yes, in a heavy water cell. In a light water cell as well. > > > > If it remains free, oxygen pressure would increase as long as excess > energy was being made. This is not observed. > > Has it really been looked for? How gas-tight are the cells you are referring > to? Remember hydrino formation can release a thousand times more energy than > combustion (according to RM) so we're not talking about much O2. I for one have used very tight cells to which was attached a very sensitive method to measure the pressure change. I describe this work on my website. Granted, small amounts of anomalous heat would perhaps produce too little pressure change to be detected. However, the few occasions when large amounts of power were detected, no steady change in pressure was detected. I'm not saying that hydrino formation is not occurring. I'm only saying that no evidence exists in present measurements that would support the idea. > > > Ed, I really hope that you will take some time to look at the newer material > on Mills' site, as you seem to be focusing on his earlier experiments, which > pale in comparison to the recent work. > > For many years now, he has given up on electrolysis altogether. Why? If you > look beyond the trees for that forest, the one known as consumer marketing, > it is apparently not imaginable that a viable candidate for any real-world > product is possible even when you stretch everything in current CF to its > limits. No consumer is going to shell out the big bucks for hot water, they > want either kilowatts or torque. I'm only discussing the proposed production of hydrinos in a P-F type cell. I have no evidence and no opinion about the claims for hydrino production using other methods. Mills may well be correct. Until the studies are made available for examination by being published and until other people have had a chance to duplicate the work, I will have to withhold my opinion. As for shelling out big bucks for hot water, many people now send big bucks for this item. How much do you pay each year to heat your home and wash your clothes? > > > Mills made a major breakthrough when he discovered that the Ar/H/Sr > combination in a cold plasma cell is robust enough to commercialize, and > furthermore is amenable to direct conversion into electricity, something > that can never happen in an electrolytic cell except through thermoelectrics > which is 4% efficient or less at these temps - BUT commercialization is > easier to imagine with Pd-D when efficiencies are at 60-90% (if it is a cold > plasma cell) - so that even with Pd costing $1000/oz. it could be viable (so > long as Pd isn't consumed). Direct conversion of plasma to electricity is a > present reality, not quite mature but it doesn't require any leap of faith. > Thermoelectric conversion is laughable by comparison. No one is suggesting that a P-F type cell could ever be commercialized much less one containing large amounts of palladium. However, a cell of some type making only heat at 200° C would be very practical both to heat homes and to make electric power for the home. Such a cell does not have to be very efficient because there is no line loss, which can be over 1/3 of the power generated when conventional power is used, and because deuterium is dirt cheap when measured as $/BTU. > > > My personal feeling is that Mills may have intentionally neglected > palladium-deuterium for these very important (to him) reasons: > 1) It was not discovered by him and it preceded him (by only a year) > 2) If indeed, D "shrinks" more efficiently than does plain hydrogen and if > indeed, Pd were found to be a catalyst for that shrinkage, then Mills' whole > patent base would be in jeopardy because of the prior P&F work . The P-F work has no patent protection, hence can be improved and patented, especially if the real explanation for the heat is demonstrated and found not to correspond to the P-F claims. > > Furthermore, there is a basis to believe that D will eventually be shown to > go below ground state more efficiently than plain hydrogen (some of the > sub-quark ideas and some cosmological evidence points that way). I am also > concerned that there may be several major camps out there in LENR world and > each has partial answers, but each has stubbornly resisted borrowing from > the other. > > For Mills it would likely be financial doom if sub ground state D turns out > to be a major contributor to some forms of excess heat in CF, but at least > he would get credit for the theory. For the rest of CF, who should care? The mechanism for producing the nuclear reactions is not important expect to guide future development. Finding the mechanism may get you a Nobel Prize but it will not get you a patent. Regards Ed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 12:05:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA14092; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:02:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:02:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA1028C.2AAB700 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:01:32 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: Nature Contents: 13 September 2001 Volume 413 No. 6852 pp. 93 - 233] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pw0CY2.0.-R3.wAGex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Nature Contents: 13 September 2001 Volume 413 No. 6852 pp. 93 - 233 Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:30:00 -0400 From: Nature Reply-To: Customer Service To: Nature Nature - Table of Contents Now available at http://www.nature.com/nature/ Visit Nature online to browse the content of the current issue, including articles, letters to Nature, brief communications and web extras. Please note that you need to be a subscriber to enjoy full text access to Nature online. To purchase a subscription, please visit http://www.nature.com/nature/subscribe/ Nature Contents: 13 September 2001 Volume 413 No. 6852 (c)Copyright 2001 Macmillan Publishers Ltd ===================================================================== This alert is supported by R&D Systems. R&D Systems is pleased to introduce Fluorokine MAP (MultiAnalyte Profiling) kits for use with Luminex 100 analyzers. They allow you to simultaneously measure multiple cytokines in 50 uL cell culture supernate. Analyte-specific component kits (coated beads and conjugate) are sold individually, so you can choose which analytes you wish to multiplex with our Fluorokine MAP base kit. Contact us at http://www.RnDSystems.com ===================================================================== **Last chance** Nature Biotechnology Conferences: Realizing Genomic Medicine Date: December 3rd & 4th, 2001 Location: Sheraton San Diego Hotel & Marina, CA, USA ** $300 Early Bird Registration Discount Ends September 18, 2001 ** Save up to $300 when you register to attend the Nature Biotechnology Conference 'Realizing Genomic Medicine'. To ensure that you qualify for the discount, please register before September 18. Register at http://www.genomic-med.com/index.html?source=7 For more information visit the website http://www.genomic-med.com/index.html?source=8 e-mail: nbtevents informa.com Telephone: +44 (0)1932 893 870 or +1 (508) 616 5550 ext 1004 ===================================================================== ===================================================================== The content listing below carries links to abstracts ===================================================================== --------------------- articles --------------------- Control of hepatic gluconeogenesis through the transcriptional coactivator PGC-1 J C YOON, P PUIGSERVER, G CHEN, J DONOVAN, Z WU, J RHEE, G ADELMANT, J STAFFORD, C R KAHN, D K GRANNER, C B NEWGARD & B M SPIEGELMAN http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413131a0_fs.html --------------------- letters to Nature --------------------- A high-velocity black hole on a Galactic-halo orbit in the solar neighbourhood I F MIRABEL, V DHAWAN, R P MIGNANI, I RODRIGUES & F GUGLIELMETTI http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413139a0_fs.html Observation of the Kapitza--Dirac effect D L FREIMUND, K AFLATOONI & H BATELAAN http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413142a0_fs.html Unexpected inhibition of fusion in nucleus--nucleus collisions A C BERRIMAN, D J HINDE, M DASGUPTA, C R MORTON, R D BUTT & J O NEWTON http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413144a0_fs.html Diffusion of point defects in two-dimensional colloidal crystals A PERTSINIDIS & X S LING http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413147a0_fs.html Evolution of magma-poor continental margins from rifting to seafloor spreading R B WHITMARSH, G MANATSCHAL & T A MINSHULL http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413150a0_fs.html Mitochondrial protein phylogeny joins myriapods with chelicerates U W HWANG, M FRIEDRICH, D TAUTZ, C J PARK & W KIM http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413154a0_fs.html Arthropod phylogeny based on eight molecular loci and morphology G GIRIBET, G D EDGECOMBE & W C WHEELER http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413157a0_fs.html Dissociation between hand motion and population vectors from neural activity in motor cortex S H SCOTT, P L GRIBBLE, K M GRAHAM & D W CABEL http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413161a0_fs.html Rae1 and H60 ligands of the NKG2D receptor stimulate tumour immunity A DIEFENBACH, E R JENSEN, A M JAMIESON & D H RAULET http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413165a0_fs.html S-Nitrosothiols signal the ventilatory response to hypoxia A J LIPTON, M A JOHNSON, T MACDONALD, M W LIEBERMAN, D GOZAL & B GASTON http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413171a0_fs.html The SH2/SH3 adaptor Grb4 transduces B-ephrin reverse signals C A COWAN & M HENKEMEYER http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413174a0_fs.html CREB regulates hepatic gluconeogenesis through the coactivator PGC-1 S HERZIG, F LONG, U S JHALA, S HEDRICK, R QUINN, A BAUER, D RUDOLPH, G SCHUTZ, C YOON, P PUIGSERVER, B SPIEGELMAN & M MONTMINY http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413179a0_fs.html --------------------- brief communications --------------------- Sports science: Pack formation in cycling and orienteering G. J. ACKLAND AND D. BUTLER http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413127a0_fs.html Sexual selection: Are ducks impressed by drakes' display? K G MCCRACKEN, R E WILSON, P J MCCRACKEN & K P JOHNSON http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413128a0_fs.html Nitrogen fixation: Endocrine disrupters and flavonoid signalling J E FOX, M STARCEVIC, K Y KOW, M E BUROW & J A MCLACHLAN http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413128b0_fs.html Palaeovegetation (Communications arising): Diversity of temperate plants in east Asia S P HARRISON, G YU, H TAKAHARA & I C PRENTICE http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413129a0_fs.html Palaeovegetation (Communications arising): Diversity of temperate plants in east Asia H QIAN & R E RICKLEFS http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413130a0_fs.html --------------------- insight --------------------- foreword - Molecular sensing review articles - Visual transduction in Drosophila ROGER C. HARDIE AND PADINJAT RAGHU http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413186a0_fs.html - Molecular basis of mechanosensory transduction PETER G. GILLESPIE AND RICHARD G. WALKER http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413194a0_fs.html - Molecular mechanisms of nociception DAVID JULIUS AND ALLAN I. BASBAUM http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413203a0_fs.html - How the olfactory system makes sense of scents STUART FIRESTEIN http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413211a0_fs.html - Receptors and transduction in taste BERND LINDEMANN http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413219a0_fs.html - Stochastic sensors inspired by biology HAGAN BAYLEY AND PAUL S. CREMER http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413226a0_fs.html corporate support - Sensation NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6852/abs/413232a0_fs.html ===================================================================== The content listing below is accessible only through a subscription. To purchase a subscription, please visit: http://www.nature.com/nature/subscribe/ ===================================================================== --------------------- opinion --------------------- Bad peer reviewers Astronomy's real priorities --------------------- news --------------------- French researchers take a stand against cancer gene patent Venture capital concerns academics Helmholtz Society prepares itself for strategic reforms Summit to put education at the heart of Brazil's future Pirates attack US research ship off Somalia WHO plans study of Gulf War fallout Relaxed restrictions blamed for rise in foot and mouth Scotland aims to capitalize on spirit of scientific innovation Astronomers buoyed by rejection of merger NIH ponders repository for embryonic stem cells news in brief --------------------- news feature --------------------- Peers under pressure Keeping up with the Joneses --------------------- correspondence --------------------- Investment is the best cure for inbreeding J P M CAMACHO Taxonomy is small, but it has its citation classics E GARFIELD Ethical link between IVF and stem-cell research L WOLPERT Science archives should remain in public hands P HARPER & J SHEPPARD Nature's laws revealed in rhyming couplets N C C SHARP Enthusiasm ran ahead of discoveries still to come A P ZELICOFF --------------------- book reviews --------------------- The 'new synthesis' vindicated: L KELLER reviews The Triumph of Sociobiology by John Alcock Shedding light on a golden age: J H THOMAS reviews Nearest Star: The Surprising Science of Our Sun by Leon Golub & Jay M. Pasachoff Explosive secrets of the Sun Techy in fuzzy clothing: H F JUDSON reviews Operators and Promoters: The Story of Molecular Biology and Its Creators by Harrison Echols New in paperback Science in culture: Bee sting theories --------------------- words --------------------- Good news is no news JOHN EMSLEY --------------------- concepts --------------------- Fidelity and infidelity MIROSLAV RADMAN --------------------- news and views --------------------- Quantum control: Particles driven to diffraction P H BUCKSBAUM Physiology: Nitric oxide and respiration S A LIPTON Evolutionary biology: Sum of the arthropod parts M BLAXTER Nuclear physics: Sizing up the heavyweights Y OGANESSIAN Metabolism: Controlling the glucose factory A VIDAL-PUIG & S O'RAHILLY Daedalus: Extremes of rubbish D JONES 100 and 50 years ago --------------------- new on the market --------------------- Order, order ===================================================================== Links to freely available content on www.nature.com ===================================================================== -------------------------------- feature of the week -------------------------------- Wandering star http://www.nature.com/nature/fow/ --------------------------------- nature science update --------------------------------- This week's Nature Science Update http://www.nature.com/nsu includes: Doctors examine art Art appreciation class improves student doctors' diagnosis http://www.nature.com/nsu/010913/010913-11.html Social concience came early New-found jawbone hints at 200 thousand years of care in the community http://www.nature.com/nsu/010913/010913-9.html Maths helps magicians tie knot Tying a rope by shaking one end requires mastery of chaotic dynamics http://www.nature.com/nsu/010913/010913-8.html For more news like this visit Nature Science Update, the NPG's free popular science daily webzine, every day: http://www.nature.com/nsu --------------------------------- jobs and careers --------------------------------- Looking for a new job? Beat the waiting game by visiting new naturejobs: the online career centre for science professionals worldwide. Search hundreds of top international science jobs and choose the type of service you would like to use, all for free. To get a head start in your new career today, click: http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/ Plus: Jobs at Nature Future Focus and Recruitment Issues Meetings & Courses ===================================================================== Naturejobs.com is here. Leading-edge tools, editorial, resources and naturally top global job postings in one site. Register your resume/CV so employers hunt for YOU. Plus our powerful Job Alerts can send you vacancies directly by e-mail. And if you're not seeking a new position you'll also find the site a valuable resource. http://www.naturejobs.com Naturejobs - making science work ===================================================================== As a registered user of the Nature Publishing Group of web sites, you were selected to receive this message in the genuine belief that it would be of interest to you. If you no longer wish to receive news and announcements from the Nature Publishing Group please update your online account details at: http://www.nature.com/registration/Modify_registration.taf (You will need to log in to be recognised as a Nature registrant) To discontinue all email services from the Nature Publishing Group click on the link below: http://www.nature.com/marketing/unsubscribe/ For further technical assistance, please contact: mailto:registration nature.com For print subscription enquiries, please contact: mailto:subscriptions nature.com For other enquiries, please contact: mailto:feedback nature.com Nature's worldwide offices: London . Madrid . Paris . Munich . Moscow . New Delhi . Tokyo Melbourne . San Francisco . Washington . New York From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 12:06:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15656; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:05:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:05:56 -0700 From: ConexTom aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:59:28 EDT Subject: Ceaser's Revenge or the Repulican's of Rome? To: DEACH topica.com, prj@mail.msen.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com CC: ConexTom aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ab.f328287.28d25c10_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 Resent-Message-ID: <"sUNxK2.0.Lq3.IEGex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_ab.f328287.28d25c10_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ceaser's Revenge or the Repulican's of Rome? If one considers how governments in the past and the present react to crisis, one may notice that governments in the present day have positive alternatives that they did not have in the past. In the days of Rome, when an enemy attacked the state, the Romans did not have televisions, computers, & golf courses, to encourage positive means of response to a crisis in the government. Ceasar in the days of Rome might seek vengeance on his enemies through warfare in a crises, to steer the masses of citizens and the government, since he did not have positive means of handling the crisis. But in our modern day, our country may deal with a crisis such as terrorists attacking our country, by positive means in stead of revenge and warfare. Instead focusing on warfare with the terrorists, assumed to be form the middle east, we could focus on building a new economy in the U.S.; and in so doing, freeing ourselves of the middle east, since we would no longer be dependent on the middle east and their oil fields, and also we could free the middle east of our tyrannies on them in relation to the oil fields. Buy building a new economy, especially by means of using alternative energies, not only could the U.S. economy improve, but also political agendas connected with U.S. companies could get very rich . Even U.S. oil companies could easily invest in and encourage alternative energies, and make more money of off alternative energies than they would off of oil. How will our government, respond in our modern age to a terrorist crises, will they follow the path of vengeance, warfare and revenge like Caesar in the days of old, or will they follow the path of encouraging new economies like true Republicans should do? Respectfully, Thomas Clark tom rhfweb.com www.rhfweb.com --part1_ab.f328287.28d25c10_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ceaser's Revenge or the Repulican's of Rome?

If one considers how governments in the past and the present
react to crisis, one may notice that governments in the
present day have positive alternatives that they did not have in
the past. In the days of Rome, when an enemy attacked the
state, the Romans did not have televisions,  computers, & golf
courses, to encourage positive means of response to a crisis in
the government.  Ceasar in the days of Rome might seek
vengeance on his enemies through warfare in a crises, to steer
the masses of citizens and the government, since he did not
have positive means of handling the crisis. But in our modern
day, our country may deal with a crisis such as terrorists
attacking our country,  by positive means in stead of revenge
and warfare.  Instead focusing on warfare with the terrorists,
assumed to be form the middle east, we could focus on building
a new economy in the U.S.; and in so doing, freeing ourselves
of the middle east, since we would no longer be dependent on
the middle east and their oil fields, and also we could free the
middle east of our tyrannies on them in relation to the oil fields.
Buy building a new economy, especially by means of using
alternative energies, not only could the U.S. economy improve,
but also political agendas connected with U.S. companies could
get very rich .  Even U.S. oil companies could easily invest in
and encourage alternative energies, and make more money of
off alternative energies than they would off of oil.   How will
our government, respond in our modern age to a terrorist
crises, will they follow the path of vengeance, warfare and
revenge like Caesar in the days of old, or will they follow the
path of encouraging new economies like true Republicans
should do?  

Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com --part1_ab.f328287.28d25c10_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 14:48:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA30188; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:47:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:47:50 -0700 Message-Id: <200109132148.RAA21845 mercury.mv.net> Subject: OFF TOPIC: Nostradamus prediction? Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:38:34 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"NdwnR.0.VN7.6cIex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Someone sent this to me. I am NOT a fan of such Nostradamus "prophecies" -- but if these words are actually in Nostradamus's writings (anyone who can confirm the words, this would be appreciated), the "prediction" seems quite remarkable. Gene **** The below is an exert from Nostradamus... ================================== Nostradamus' prediction on WW3: "In the year of the new century and nine months, From the sky will come a great King of Terror... The sky will burn at forty-five degrees. Fire approaches the great new city..." "In the city of york there will be a great collapse, 2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - NOSTRADAMUS He said this will be bigger than the previous two wars. 2001 is the first year of the new century and this is the 9th month. New York is located at the 41st degree Latitude. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 14:52:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32349; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:51:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:51:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA12A9E.94709A59 mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:52:30 -0400 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Nostradamus prediction? References: <200109132148.RAA21845 mercury.mv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5QzQ32.0.Ev7.yfIex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is hoax prophecy...lines taken from nostradomus and another prophet.. with new lines added.... steve "Eugene F. Mallove" wrote: > > Someone sent this to me. I am NOT a fan of such Nostradamus "prophecies" > -- but if these words are actually in Nostradamus's writings (anyone who > can confirm the words, this would be appreciated), the "prediction" seems > quite remarkable. > > Gene > **** > > The below is an exert from Nostradamus... > > ================================== > > Nostradamus' prediction on WW3: > > "In the year of the new century and nine months, > From the sky will come a great King of Terror... > The sky will burn at forty-five degrees. > Fire approaches the great new city..." > > "In the city of york there will be a great collapse, > 2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos > while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb > third big war will begin when the big city is burning" > > - NOSTRADAMUS > > He said this will be bigger than the previous two > wars. > > 2001 is the first year of the new century and this is > the 9th month. > > New York is located at the 41st degree Latitude. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 15:05:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07070; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:04:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:04:38 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200109132148.RAA21845 mercury.mv.net> References: <200109132148.RAA21845 mercury.mv.net> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:04:19 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Nostradamus prediction? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"Zequp.0.Ek1.qrIex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Art Bell last night this was confirmed as a hoax. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 15:16:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA12443; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:16:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:16:16 -0700 Message-ID: <002e01c13ca2$1c446f20$883dee3f User> From: "Nick Reiter" To: Cc: "Lori Schillig" References: <200109132148.RAA21845 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Nostradamus prediction? Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:19:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"NkcIf2.0.K23.m0Jex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene; I used to be mildly interested in Nostradamus, until one day I got whacked up side of the head by the realization that the dozens of translations of his quatrains could really be manipulated to find a connection with any event anywhere in history. Then I dropped down to having an interest only in the two or three quatrains that actually HAD specific dates. This eventually went by the wayside when the final test for Nostradamus that I was reserving in my mind failed. The reason it failed is linked to the very same quatrain you are quoting (at least the first one)! See, the original wording of that quatrain about the "King of Terror" coming out of the sky, etc. was "1999 and SEVEN months"!! At least this was the wording presented by the 1980's Erika Cheetham translations and quite a few others. Well, July 1999 came and went; and sadly I had to give Nostradamus a failing grade on that one last test. Now it would seem as though someone has revised that same quatrain with a new date, and is apparently spreading it post facto! Which if anything, would cheese me off because it represents an attempt to capture the fears and fancies of a public already in shock about a tragic event. The second quatrain you cite seems to be altered as well. In the 1980's, I think it was the one used to "prove" that Nostradamus foresaw the Kennedy assassinations! The wording was different, but the two brothers image was used. I am a little less sure of the original wording on this one. NR ----- Original Message ----- From: Eugene F. Mallove To: VORTEX Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 4:38 PM Subject: OFF TOPIC: Nostradamus prediction? > Someone sent this to me. I am NOT a fan of such Nostradamus "prophecies" > -- but if these words are actually in Nostradamus's writings (anyone who > can confirm the words, this would be appreciated), the "prediction" seems > quite remarkable. > > Gene > **** > > The below is an exert from Nostradamus... > > > ================================== > > Nostradamus' prediction on WW3: > > "In the year of the new century and nine months, > From the sky will come a great King of Terror... > The sky will burn at forty-five degrees. > Fire approaches the great new city..." > > "In the city of york there will be a great collapse, > 2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos > while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb > third big war will begin when the big city is burning" > > - NOSTRADAMUS > > He said this will be bigger than the previous two > wars. > > 2001 is the first year of the new century and this is > the 9th month. > > New York is located at the 41st degree Latitude. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 17:24:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA13735; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:23:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:23:39 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010913203255.006eded4 postoffice.ptd.net> X-Sender: revtec postoffice.ptd.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:32:55 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: jeff fink Subject: Re: The Chickens are coming home to roost. In-Reply-To: <01091116502400.01207 tyrannosaur> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"aQxvo2.0.QM3.AuKex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Maybe only two >or three men armed with ninety-eight cent knives take over >an airliner costing millions of dollars in the face of a >planeload of lilly livered executives who no doubt went like >sheep to the slaughter. And that is probably what those >passengers were, too! >Standing Bear The people in the first three planes let themselves be herded to the back in the hope that they would eventually land safely. The people in the fourth plane Knew the score and valiantly (though outgunned) fought it out to protect other ground targets. They fought to a semi-victory and all died in the process. They are heroes in my book. Some were probably carrying pocket knives of their own. I've been carrying a 3 1/2" blade on airline flights for the past 5 years. It makes me feel safer. If those passengers were totally unarmed we would be mourning the loss of the White House as well. On the other hand, if they were all armed to the legal hilt like me, they may have lived to tell their story. I also own a plastic dagger known as "The Executive Letter Opener" that I bought nearly 25 yrs ago. It came with a shoulder holster. It will go through a metal detector and only a strip search will detect it. I never tried to take it on a plane but it would be easy. I'm sure the terrorists carried knives like these. They would be stupid not to. Now, the FAA is playing right into their hands by banning all knives. All future flights will finally, truly, be carrying a herd of defenseless sheep. I will not be one of them. I refuse to be the only armed patriot. I'll never fly again until the ban is lifted. The FAA has guaranteed the success of future hijackings and I will have no part of it! Jeff Fink From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 18:09:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA05052; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:08:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:08:51 -0700 From: Steve Krivit To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: The Chickens are coming home to roos Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:09:00 -0700 X-Mailer: MailBeamer v3.24 (Win98) Message-ID: <243022251.266923793.4294665009 Butthead.linkline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-_1tE2.0.cE1.XYLex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >to be the only armed patriot. I'll never fly again until the ban >is lifted. The FAA has guaranteed the success of future >hijackings and I will have no part of it! Jeff: If you -do- want to fly again...you may find an interest in the Israeli hand-to-hand combat training called Krav Maga. They have a national training center here in Los Angeles, phone 310.966.1304...I believe they have branches in other parts of the US. They provide training against armed attackers as well as non-armed attackers. Also, another form of rapidly-learned self defense is called Impact Personal Safety. My first wife was trained in this method. During "full-impact, full-force" training sessions I saw her (a 5 foot 105 pound woman) take down a 6 foot 175lb man with ease and then she proceeded to take down 2 other mock assailants... Good luck and peace Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 18:15:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA09020; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:14:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:14:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA159D4.1090802 zipworld.com.au> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:13:56 +1000 From: Alan Schneider User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:0.9.3) Gecko/20010801 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Nostradamus prediction? References: <200109132148.RAA21845 mercury.mv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"m41Ch3.0.kC2.ndLex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Definitely a hoax, guys. See http://www.fury.com/article/925.php Let's nip this irresponsible urban myth in the bud before it has a chance to grow any further. Alan Rick Monteverde wrote: > On Art Bell last night this was confirmed as a hoax. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > . > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 18:17:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA26074; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010913212307.006ec83c postoffice.ptd.net> X-Sender: revtec postoffice.ptd.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:23:07 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: jeff fink Subject: Re: The Chickens are coming home to roost. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"d1Cry1.0.JN6.2fLex" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Maybe only two >or three men armed with ninety-eight cent knives take over >an airliner costing millions of dollars in the face of a >planeload of lilly livered executives who no doubt went like >sheep to the slaughter. And that is probably what those >passengers were, too! >Standing Bear The people in the first three planes let themselves be herded to the back in the hope that they would eventually land safely. The people in the fourth plane Knew the score and valiantly (though outgunned) fought it out to protect other ground targets. They fought to a semi-victory and all died in the process. They are heroes in my book. Some were probably carrying pocket knives of their own. I've been carrying a 3 1/2" blade on airline flights for the past 5 years. It makes me feel safer. If those passengers were totally unarmed we would be mourning the loss of the White House as well. On the other hand, if they were all armed to the legal hilt like me, they may have lived to tell their story. I also own a plastic dagger known as "The Executive Letter Opener" that I bought nearly 25 yrs ago. It came with a shoulder holster. It will go through a metal detector and only a strip search will detect it. I never tried to take it on a plane but it would be easy. I'm sure the terrorists carried knives like these. They would be stupid not to. Now, the FAA is playing right into their hands by banning all knives. All future flights will finally, truly, be carrying a herd of defenseless sheep. I will not be one of them. I refuse to be the only armed patriot. I'll never fly again until the ban is lifted. The FAA has guaranteed the success of future hijackings and I will have no part of it! Jeff Fink From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 18:35:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA19310; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:34:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:34:03 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:35:10 -0700 From: Michael Subject: RE: OFF TOPIC: Nostradamus prediction? In-reply-to: <200109132148.RAA21845 mercury.mv.net> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"GytZa3.0.dj4.AwLex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry, but it's a hoax. I've been debunking this one all day at work (sigh). This "prophecy" is a modern creation by a college student in the style of Nostradamus. I also spent some time going over the real Nostradamus prophecies and couldn't find one that could even be bent to fit the current situation. Sorry, but we'll have to see how this one develops on our own. Our erstwhile Florentine philosopher can't help us with this one... - Michael -----Original Message----- From: Eugene F. Mallove [mailto:editor infinite-energy.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:39 PM To: VORTEX Subject: OFF TOPIC: Nostradamus prediction? Someone sent this to me. I am NOT a fan of such Nostradamus "prophecies" -- but if these words are actually in Nostradamus's writings (anyone who can confirm the words, this would be appreciated), the "prediction" seems quite remarkable. Gene **** The below is an exert from Nostradamus... ================================== Nostradamus' prediction on WW3: "In the year of the new century and nine months, From the sky will come a great King of Terror... The sky will burn at forty-five degrees. Fire approaches the great new city..." "In the city of york there will be a great collapse, 2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - NOSTRADAMUS He said this will be bigger than the previous two wars. 2001 is the first year of the new century and this is the 9th month. New York is located at the 41st degree Latitude. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 19:19:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA08786; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:12:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:12:59 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:12:32 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9@cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626@varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <6ia0qtk7l0343nkthovh64bsbvoddp3sum@4ax.com> <3BA0D31A.7FC50251@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <3BA0D31A.7FC50251 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA08717 Resent-Message-ID: <"-zfTf3.0.292.fUMex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:39:12 -0600: [snip] >For fusion to take place, two hydrinos must find each other. The rate of two >hydrino getting together will be proportional to the hydrino concentration >squared. Therefore, such a fusion reaction can not take place until the hydrino >concentration has increased to significant levels. Mills claims that hydrinos are >so small as to be able to diffuse out of the cell. That was his original position before he accepted that they could pick up an extra electron and form hydrino hydride. Obviously the hydride, being charged, will be much more strongly affected by it's surroundings, and will be unlikely to escape. Consider also that therefore, hydrinos &/or hydrinohydride is going to be swimming around in the electrolyte. During collisions, the extra electron can become dislodged, leaving the pure hydrino. If we now make only one assumption (that is also reasonable), much falls into place. The assumption is that disproportionation reactions have a large reaction cross section. The implication which results, is that from e.g. 100 hydrinos/hydride, 1 will get shrunken to fusion proportions, while the other 99 get converted back into normal hydrogen that eventually recombines with the orphaned oxygen to re-form water (or results in excess O2/H2 mixture if the two are kept separate). In other words the mopping up operation ensures that the orphaned oxygen, doesn't exceed the number of hydrinos that fuse. >Therefore, by Mills own >admission, a hydrino fusion reaction can not be a significant source of energy. No, this is only your conclusion, based on Mills early statements. > >On the other hand, the energy liberated during hydrino formation would add to the >measured energy and could be a minor energy source. > [snip] >I suggest you misunderstand the process. The build up of oxygen does not depend on >what happens to the hydrino or its chemical state. Once oxygen is released from >D2O, it will occupy an increased volume which will cause pressure within the cell >to increase. Unless the O2 can recombine with D, either present as D2 or some form >of hydrino, Which is precisely my contention. I.e. that the orphaned oxygen is mopped up by reconstituted D(2). >the pressure will continue to increase. A number of people, including >my self, have measured the pressure change in such cells very accurately and have >to seen the effect expected if hydrinos are a significant source of energy. > [snip] >> They do however combine with positive ions (e.g. metal ions, and H+), >> and could conceivably combine with oxygen as part of a lager molecule or >> ionic aggregate. > >First of all, this chemical reaction would have to occur where all of the proposed >reactants were present. This is only possible in the gas phase or in material in >contact with the gas phase. Actually I suspect it could also happen in the liquid phase, which leads to -> >Thus, we should see a build up of unusual products on >the wall of the cell. This is not seen. This is an excellent point. It means that either no such products form, or they are destroyed as fast as they form, or with the specific chemicals present, they are soluble. I would however add that many "back yard" hydrolysis experiments do indeed yield floating "gunk" which hangs around the electrode(s), though these experiments are not done with Pd and Pt electrodes. [snip] >> As shown above, it is possible to end up with only fusion and water, and >> yet have had hydrinos as an intermediary. (Note that there is still a >> very slight oxygen excess, matching the number of fusion reactions that >> have taken place). > >For the fusion reaction to be significant, a large excess of free hydrinos must be >present. Why? They just keep going around and around, until they meet one another and disproportionate (either in the cathode, or in the electrolyte), then either fuse, or mop up the orphaned oxygen. >It is the oxygen released by their formation which is the issue, not >oxygen associated with the hydrinos that fused. I hope I have now managed to explain myself somewhat better. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 20:09:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA00344; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:08:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:08:27 -0700 From: ConexTom aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:05:59 EDT Subject: The Fibonacci Balance of Spiritual Energy and Physical Energy? To: DEACH topica.com, prj@mail.msen.com, svpvril@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l eskimo.com CC: ConexTom aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_b0.1a4ed397.28d2ce17_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 Resent-Message-ID: <"XLEbZ3.0.D5.hINex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_b0.1a4ed397.28d2ce17_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Fibonacci Balance of Spiritual Energy and Physical Energy? If gravitons represent the spiritual energy in the universe and are symbolized by colorless light which is fractalized in color, and photons represent the physical energy in the universe and are symbolized by colored light, then what mixture of the two energies, creates the best balance in nature and in artifice or society? Should one follow the Fibonacci pattern in life by zig zaging from pole to pole with both energies, spiritual and physical. If one maximizes the focuses on the physical energies, one may develop an extreme bias for the physical without the spiritual, and realize a mechanical primitive slave-like world. If one maximizes the focuses on the spiritual energies, one may develop an extreme bias for the spiritual world and idealize paradise, but lose one's body. If one blends the focus, say %10 physical and %90 spiritual, does one, realize the ideal in the physical for a while? And then if one does a Fibonacci shift, to 90% physical and 10% spiritual, does one create a synthesis to the middle or a 50% physical and a 50% spiritual. A light worker or healer, then in fact, and in spirit, works with both lights - spiritual light (gravitons), and physical light (photons), to create a balance in nature and in artifice! In our modern world, we have much if not most of the knowledge we need of the physical world, should we not focus more on the spiritual world, to make it a happier place to live in? Thomas Clark tom rhfweb.con www.rhfweb.com --part1_b0.1a4ed397.28d2ce17_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Fibonacci Balance of Spiritual Energy and Physical
Energy?

If gravitons represent the spiritual energy in the universe and
are symbolized by colorless light which is fractalized in color,
and photons represent the physical energy in the universe and
are symbolized by colored light, then what mixture of the two
energies, creates the best balance in nature and in artifice or
society?  Should one follow the Fibonacci pattern in life by zig
zaging from pole to pole with both energies, spiritual and
physical.  If one maximizes the focuses on the physical energies,
one may develop an extreme bias for the physical without the
spiritual, and realize a mechanical primitive slave-like world. If
one maximizes the focuses on the spiritual energies, one may
develop an extreme bias for the spiritual world and idealize
paradise, but lose one's body. If one blends the focus, say %10
physical and %90 spiritual, does one, realize the ideal in the
physical for a while? And then if one does a Fibonacci shift, to
90% physical and 10% spiritual, does one create a synthesis to
the middle or a 50% physical and a 50% spiritual.
A light worker or healer, then in fact, and in spirit, works with
both lights - spiritual light (gravitons), and physical light
(photons), to create a balance in nature and in artifice!
In our modern world, we have much if not most of the
knowledge we need of the physical world, should we not focus
more on the spiritual world, to make it a happier place to live
in?

Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.con
www.rhfweb.com --part1_b0.1a4ed397.28d2ce17_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 22:31:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA26836; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:29:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:29:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host p104-nas8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.218.104] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3BA19417.98241118 ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:22:32 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Mr_Tracys_Corner@yahoogroups.com Subject: Fake Predictions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uaj0u2.0.DZ6.6NPex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The first 1, 2a and 2b have been said to be hoaxes. And as he died in 1566 he didn't write 3 either. 4 is another fabrication. However there are many people who have had dreams in the days just before the incident about it. 1: In the year of the new century and nine months, From the sky will come a great King of Terror... The sky will burn at forty-five degrees. Fire approaches the great new city... 2a: "In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb" , "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" 2b: In the city of york there will be a great collapse, 2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb third big war will begin when the big city is burning 3: It has been foreseen that exactly three hundred and fifty years into the future, silver phoenixes shall strike down the twin brothers of oppression that carried the king's nation, which shall bring upon the apocalypse. Nostradamus (September 11th, 1651) 4: On the day of the 9 month that two metal birds would crash into two tall statues, in the new city, and the world will end soon after From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 13 23:58:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA25958; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:57:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:57:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host p104-nas8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.218.104] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3BA1A8C1.4FA78914 ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:50:42 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fake Predictions References: <3BA19417.98241118 ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"W56LY3.0.WL6.dfQex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From someone on another list, the claim is that he made no predictions for america. Gaaaah!!! On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:55:14 -0700, Robert Dorman wrote: > > "It has been foreseen that exactly three hundred and fifty years > > into the future, silver phoenixes shall strike down the twin > > brothers of oppression that carried the king's nation, which > > shall bring upon the apocalypse." > > > > Nostradamus > > > > (September 11th, 1651) Nostradamus NEVER said that. Not only did he not say that, he NEVER made any prediction about the US or the Americas. He stated that, specifically. (What he stated, in a letter, was that his predictions were for: 1) France, 2) the Papacy, 3) other areas of Europe and close-by areas, including the Middle East and northern Africa -- in that order of importance.) BTW, the "New City" was probably Naples, Italy (it was originally named Neo-polis, which means exactly "New City"). -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF John Berry wrote: > The first 1, 2a and 2b have been said to be hoaxes. > And as he died in 1566 he didn't write 3 either. > 4 is another fabrication. > > However there are many people who have had dreams in the days just before the incident > about it. > > 1: > > In the year of the new century and nine months, > From the sky will come a great King of Terror... > The sky will burn at forty-five degrees. > Fire approaches the great new city... > > 2a: > > "In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn > apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will > succumb" , "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" > > 2b: > > In the city of york there will be a great collapse, > 2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos > while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb > third big war will begin when the big city is burning > > 3: > > It has been foreseen that exactly three hundred and fifty years > into the future, silver phoenixes shall strike down the twin > brothers of oppression that carried the king's nation, which > shall bring upon the apocalypse. > > Nostradamus > > (September 11th, 1651) > > 4: > > On the day of the 9 month that two metal birds would crash into > two tall statues, in the new city, and the world will end soon after From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 06:44:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA26637; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:42:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:42:37 -0700 Message-Id: <200109141342.JAA21448 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Nostradamus prediction? Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:33:23 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"I7yMh.0.7W6.DbWex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thank you all for the clarification of this Nostradamus fakery nonsense. Indeed, a false rumor that needs to be squashed. Gene >This is hoax prophecy...lines taken >from nostradomus and another prophet.. >with new lines added.... > >steve > >"Eugene F. Mallove" wrote: >> >> Someone sent this to me. I am NOT a fan of such Nostradamus "prophecies" >> -- but if these words are actually in Nostradamus's writings (anyone who >> can confirm the words, this would be appreciated), the "prediction" seems >> quite remarkable. >> >> Gene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 06:54:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA32494; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:54:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:54:00 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010914084709.0095bcd0 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:54:15 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Fake Predictions In-Reply-To: <3BA1A8C1.4FA78914 ihug.co.nz> References: <3BA19417.98241118 ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"1FnuD.0.Yx7.ulWex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:50 PM 9/14/01 +1200, you wrote: > From someone on another list, the claim is that he made no predictions > for america. > >Gaaaah!!! On this same subject I will excerpt from a letter I wrote to my Son last night... You will hear predictions that this is the end of the world. Quotes from the Quatrains of Nostradamus taken out of context and used as evidence. Disjointed references to The Revelation of John. Ignore them. Just for the sake of using some statistics. The last time the world effectively ended was about eleven million years back. (trusting the paleontologists) If you trust the statistics offered by the surgeons general the average life span of a human is about 70 years (give or take) That means the chances of you actually witnessing the end of the world (year to date) is about 157143 to 1 against. Don't buy this lotto ticket. If you prefer the word of God then look in the 24th chapter of Matthew verse 35 & 36 There you will find what Jesus has to say about the end of the world. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." Which brings me to the Latin phrase "Carpe Deim" (basically means seize the day) We can learn from the past but it is gone forever. We can hope for the future but it is not ours to hold. We must live today. Jesus had something to say about that also. So if anybody tells you that he knows about the future you can ask him "What did you know monday and what do you know today." Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 08:15:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04316; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:13:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:13:10 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:08:23 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <001301c13d2f$1938e1c0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6@ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"qCETd.0.K31.6wXex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seems like I missed several key points on Ed Storms negative critique on Hydrino formation, here is the first oversight he has made: > Second, when a hydrino is formed it releases orphaned oxygen to the gas. Not really. Or should I say, only minutely more so than with D+D fusion itself. D+D fusion too will also orphan some minute amount of O2. In either case the escaping D from the Pd matrix (due to heating)will be largely oxidized by the residual O2 immediately, so that any difference between fusion or hydrino formation will be necessarily unmeasurable. You cannot assume that only D+D fusion will occur in the matrix and hydrino formation will occur outside. Both reactions will be using the D that has already been loaded, at least initially. Either reaction will occur primarily on the matrix surface, so that in the end we will only be talking about differences in "replacement deuterium". Whether or not any excess heat is coming from fusion OR hydrino formation, it will occur near the surface of the matrix using primarily loaded D or ionized D that is constantly replenished from the heavy water. The ONLY difference between the two is the energetics of the reaction - i.e. fusion being more energetic so slightly less O2 would be evolved. However, in either case it would be so little O2 gas relative to the heat released that the vapor pressure of the excess heat, and the fact that oxidization of free deuterium would be almost immediate, that these two factors would absolutely overwhelm any increased gas pressure due to O2 by many orders of magnitude. This is a NON-issue. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 08:25:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA08697; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:23:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:23:02 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:18:19 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <002f01c13d30$7c7743c0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6@ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"0KBye1.0.k72.M3Yex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yesterday, it seems that I missed several key points on Ed Storms negative critique on possible hydrino/deuterino formation, here is another serious problem with Ed's response: > First, when helium was measured, the amount corresponded very closely with the amount of measured energy based on a fusion reaction > > it seems to me that the experiments in which He correlates exactly with energy are in a distinct minority. Can you give me a references > Check my website and the paper "Critical Evaluation of the Pons-Fleischmann Effect (Part 2)". (http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html) Huh? Ed, with all due respect, I can find no study here that adequately supports your contention. There are some largely unsubstantiated assertions but "where's the beef"? Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 08:34:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA12322; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:32:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:32:07 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20010914112152.01d5d418 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:27:41 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion In-Reply-To: <001301c13d2f$1938e1c0$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622 ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ZmSK52.0.S03.tBYex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:08 AM 9/14/2001 -0700, Jones Beene wrote: >Not really. Or should I say, only minutely more so than with D+D fusion >itself. D+D fusion too will also orphan some minute amount of O2. In either >case the escaping D from the Pd matrix (due to heating)will be largely >oxidized by the residual O2 immediately, so that any difference between >fusion or hydrino formation will be necessarily unmeasurable. Actually, during the reactions, the cathode is the site of electrochemical REDUCTION, and not oxidation. And the oxygen partial pressure (PO2) at the cathode is zero; which is why the Clark (oxygen) electrode works so well. BTW, there is very good evidence for helium-4 production in cold fusion, and much of the physics, ash, and loading issues are well understood and consistent with conventional (albeit non-equilibrium) science. {You might read up in the books by Uhlig and Bockris, respecitively.) Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 09:33:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA06727; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:32:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:32:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA2233B.B6B56657 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:33:25 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: our fate Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iPAKH.0.1f1.24Zex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear All, Well, the United States has now declared war on the Arab countries and set a course toward the end of civilization as we know it. Before you reject this statement as being totally irrational and extreme, take a few minutes to consider what is happening now and what can be expected to happen. America is outraged and angered at terrorism, for good reason,. These terrorists are Arabs. These Arabs are angered and outraged at the US, for good reasons. We and they have been at war for many years, a situation about which the general US population has been ignorant, except during the Israel-Arab war and Desert Storm. Increasingly following these obvious hostilities, hatred for the US has been growing in many quarters. This hatred is fueled by the behavior of Israel (with US help), a strong pride, and a fundamental belief that Islam is the only true understanding of this life and the spirit world. This religious belief and strong hatred makes them willing to sacrifice their lives for their cause, something not very common in any society except in the time of war. So, the US, with the help of many other countries, starts bombing various locations in some of the unfriendly Arab countries where terrorists are thought to be located. The TV shows the death and suffering of innocent people that will result. People in the other Arab nations will identify with their brothers in faith and will object. Arab governments previously friendly will be overthrown. Having neither an air force nor modern weapons, they will retaliate any way they can. These attacks will be carried out by suicide groups within the US and Europe, just as was done on Sept. 11. Because the infrastructure of the US is complex and exposed, they will have a devastating effect. Meanwhile, we will become so paranoid that the US will become an armed camp with great restrictions on travel and behavior, especially by people of Arab ethnicity. As the situation escalates, the terrorists will acquire nuclear and biological weapons which will be used. These will be delivered to the US the same way tons of drugs are now delivered. Perhaps some of these devices are already here. We will not be able to retaliate except to kill more Arabs thinking them a treat. Meanwhile our energy supply will disappear and the US will go dark. This is the fate Bush and our government are now presenting to the American people, all in the name of wiping out terrorism. Once again we are presented with a very reasonable and necessary effort, but one that hides an important flaw, just like we experienced in Vietnam in the past and now with the "War on Drugs". The flaw in that the real problem is never addressed, but is attacked in the most politically convenient way using brute force rather than understanding and intelligence. The tragedy now is compounded because we have the most uninformed people and government that we have had in many years. Just when we need leadership, we have people who will take advantage of the justified anger to further their own immediate political agenda. Meanwhile the rest of us will pay the price for our ignorance and our choice of leaders. We are now living in a true Greek Tragedy because no other consequence is possible - too many mistakes have been made, too many rules have been violated, too many people have become outraged. For an individual, the only defense is to stay out of the way of the train wreak, not an easy task. With great sadness, Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 09:35:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA07821; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:34:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:34:08 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:29:22 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <004901c13d3a$69a1e660$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6@ix.netcom.com> <4.3.2.7.1.20010914112152.01d5d418 world.std.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"WPFft3.0.xv1.-5Zex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "Mitchell Swartz" > BTW, there is very good evidence for helium-4 production in cold fusion, and much of the physics, ash, and loading issues are well understood and consistent with conventional (albeit non-equilibrium) science. I will whole-heartedly agree that there is very good evidence for helium-4 production. However, in contrast to what you state next, this fact alone is very good evidence for NONconventional, NOT conventional physics. There is NO generally acceptable (in conventional physics) low-energy pathway for D+D > helium-4. Period. End of discussion. What we have here, like it or not, is unconventional physics, and as such the Mills theory will stand on equal footing with whatever it is you wish to propose as that precise pathway that explains the low-energy appearance for helium-4. Regards, Jones Beene P.S. Thanks you for not including the usual self-published references to your own work. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 10:18:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA29277; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:16:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:16:54 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:15:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Fwd: Re: [svpvril] Schematics of a gravity wave detector! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"xzCrK2.0.I97.5kZex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm appreciate any comments about the infolding of photons leading to gravitrons. > >Subject: Re: [svpvril] Schematics of a gravity wave detector! > >FHLew wrote: > I would be grateful if someone would enlighten me on > > this statement: >> > > " Gravity is the memory of Matter that was once Light " > >We've written extensively on this forum about various gravity >definitions. Here is another one that ties matter, gravity, light and mind.: > >The 'graviton is infolded photons' theory also can be tied directly to >Whittaker's first paper showing that the potential has an enormously >rich EM wave structure. Further, it is clear that the >vacuum/ether/spacetime is comprised of gravitons. This means that the >mind/memory/personality are centered in dynamic photon structures inside >structured gravitons, which in turn comprise artificial potentials that >are centered in the atomic nuclei of the matter in the body. It is now >clear that the human brain and nervous system utilize highly complex >substructuring of gravitons and supergravitons rather than photons to >perform mind functions. The vacuum - and spacetime - can now be >considered to be made of these photon-structured gravitons and >supergravitons. In other words, the graviton can be regarded as a "piece >of the vacuum/spacetime medium." Gravitobiology - A New Biophysics; >Bearden, Thomas > >-- >Life, Love and Laughter, >Dale Pond >Sympathetic Vibratory Physics >Sacred Science - Sacred Life >http://www.svpvril.com >SVP Discussion Forum: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svpvril/ > > > > >Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos. > >Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com. > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 11:46:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03162; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:41:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:41:11 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20010914134042.01d81e50 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:44:35 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion In-Reply-To: <004901c13d3a$69a1e660$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622 ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6 ix.netcom.com> <4.3.2.7.1.20010914112152.01d5d418 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"QR7z51.0.In.6zaex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:29 AM 9/14/2001 -0700, Jones Beene wrote: >From: "Mitchell Swartz" > > > BTW, there is very good evidence for helium-4 production in cold >fusion, >and much of the physics, ash, and loading issues are well understood and >consistent with conventional (albeit non-equilibrium) science. > >I will whole-heartedly agree that there is very good evidence for helium-4 >production. > >However, in contrast to what you state next, this fact alone is very good >evidence for NONconventional, NOT conventional physics. > >There is NO generally acceptable (in conventional physics) low-energy >pathway for D+D > helium-4. Period. End of discussion." Your statement is not supported by the literature. You might actually read some of the better papers, if you care; and then FOR YOURSELF work out the equations (such as what the expected amount of penetrating radiation would actually be). ---------------------------------------------------- :"What we have here, like it or not, is unconventional physics, and as such the Mills theory will stand on equal footing with whatever it is you wish to propose as that precise pathway that explains the low-energy appearance for helium-4. Regards, Jones Beene P.S. Thanks you for not including the usual self-published references to your own work. " And most of my publications are not "self-published", to the degree that you might actually care about accuracy. Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 12:04:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15031; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:02:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:02:38 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:57:37 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <009601c13d4f$1f58ab60$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6@ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"9BAeu1.0.mg3.EHbex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings, Some very important economic considerations were glossed over in the prior discussions on the nature, viability and future direction of the Pd-D technology - and how it may be affected or altered if BLP (Blacklight Power) does come out with its promised consumer product in the near term (the reverse gyrotron cold plasma cell). On Thursday the following exchange of ideas took place that has many implications outside of the actual science of what may be going on in these experiments > For many years now, he (MIlls) has given up on electrolysis altogether. Why? If you look beyond the trees for that forest, the one known as consumer marketing, it is apparently not imaginable that a viable candidate for any real-world product is possible even when you stretch everything in current CF to its limits. No consumer is going to shell out the big bucks for hot water, they want either kilowatts or torque. > E.S: As for shelling out big bucks for hot water, many people now send big bucks for this item. How much do you pay each year to heat your home and wash your clothes? Let's not forget the weekly shower ;-} I think the national average is around $100 per capita. If the family of 4 is spending $500 annually for natural gas (and it is sure to go up), what would they spend for a reliable CF alternative? Or is that the real question we should be asking? This is very specualtive because we have to first assume that the CF technolgy is made reliable and also (this is critical) that we find another acceptable matrix for the reaction (other than Pd). The cost of deuterium in the final equation will probably be neglible. The price of Pd has skyrocketed in recent years to triple the price of gold because of catalytic mufflers etc, and despite this, the auto manufacturers are just now beginning to find some alternatives. If a CF product comes out that must use it, the increased demand would probably drive the price even further into the stratosphere. Most optimists, myself included, feel that an alternative matrix can be found, and CF may end up benefitting from the tremendous effort that Detroit is putting into this - that is, assuming that the some of exotic catalytic properties required by the two very different implementations are mutually shared. Titanium alloys and the rare earths have both been mentioned. If one wanted to maximize deurterino production, a titanium strontium alloy matrix would be interesting to try. But even if major advances in CF catalysts do transpire rapidly, and the electrolytic technology is perfected in the near term, then there is still a bigger problem facing the "hot water" advocate. This problem is highlighted by "relative worth" and the fact that we are accustomed to buying automobiles (often several per decade) - and these have a much higher priority than hot water. If that doesn't make sense to you, look at it this way. You buy a car and it is powered by a LENR technoloty that works with a cold plasma, rather than electrolytes, and gives you electrical current rather than heat. Now, switch your hat over from inventor to CPA and look at what you have: you have a "sunk cost" for the hot water already included in the car so that this particular market (hot water) will NEVER develop so long as autos are bought. What I am saying is that the auto engine by its nature will only be used a few hours a day and as Mills has said, you look out at any mall parking lot in the future and what you see is a thousand little shiny 100 kw power plants, just siting there waiting to be plugged into the grid. The net result is that the cost of local electricity will dive, we will no longer need natural gas, and along with that the "hot water" idea has also gone the way of the dinosaur. Forget hot water. Forget electrolysis. It's just not viable in the long term unless Mills is blowing major smoke, and I wouldn't care to bet against him. Direct electrical conversion is the only technology that makes long-term economic sense for any type of CF. By its nature, it will squeeze out all the others . But as I stated before, why don't the CF advocates/ scientists/ inventors/ writers etc. all get together now with a little clarity and resolve - and try to upstage BLP on direct conversion? > > My personal feeling is that Mills may have intentionally neglected > > palladium-deuterium for these very important (to him) reasons: > > 1) It was not discovered by him and it preceded him (by only a year) > > 2) If indeed, D "shrinks" more efficiently than does plain hydrogen and if > > indeed, Pd were found to be a catalyst for that shrinkage, then Mills' whole > > patent base would be in jeopardy because of the prior P&F work . > The P-F work has no patent protection, hence can be improved and patented, > especially if the real explanation for the heat is demonstrated and found not > to correspond to the P-F claims. Not exactly. The fact that there was prior art, even if lapsed and the explanation behind it is flawed, does not mean that it still may not prevail in court. The patent system protects devices, not theories, not explanations. Electrolytic Pd-D systems and also gas phase and probably some cold plasma systems using D may be in the clear - at least as far as anyone being able to obtain or defend a valid patent now. Mills may have plain hydrogen locked up (maybe not) but as we both agree, the cost of D will be negligible. If the field is arguably wide open, and if hot water is not a viable consumer item, then why not pursue CF now in some form where direct conversion into electricity is part of the package? Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 12:17:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25729; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:16:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:16:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA2577D.2978D9B7 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:16:13 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: our fate References: <3BA2233B.B6B56657 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"j3vKn.0.sH6.rTbex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think we (most of the world) are in more trouble than it appears now. My argument lie that this attack is NOT decided by a terrorist organization but contracted to them. Some power in the World who wants their rules be played instead rules of US central ized countries. This power could be large that they are thinking so. There is a balance of forces in the world. Clinton administration had knew this and followed clever politics to get every countries at the side of US. He tried to achieve this respect a nd justice and tried to get decisions by a kind of democracy of nations, not by pure military power and enforcement. Maybe this was not completely done this way, but I believe this was the way he choose. More importantly, Clinton politics, draw a FUTURE that all the people of the World will take place. This was the true globalization. Now look to the Bush politics, appears focused on interest of US, and this spelled widely, can we say the same thing? Wher e is the future of many nations in future of Bush's world? How these countries can support US politics if there no future for them? So, US international support weakening and opponents are powering. I believe this incident was occurred because circumstances favorable. and as Ed stated, Bush administration appears have not good view to overcome this situation. One can see the style of the terrorist assault, how they secured their success, their redundancy. Why? If they were a terrorist group acting by them selves, they will choose an economic way. They will try to use efficiently their resources, they will try to optimize the cost / success ratios. if one attack fails try an other one in other time. In this attack we can not see such a optimizations. Actually this is the message of this assault. Somebody says "See our power", "Fear of our power". We are affected so much, maybe because of this message. This message is unmissable(?). They mass murdered people, attacked on heart of the trade, the capitalism, they attacked the heart of US defense and probably the White House. The goal of this assault would be PRETEND to raise a flagship against US, just is the PKK (an ethnic terrorist group) pretended the flagship of Kurd people in Turkey. Bush described this assault as "declaration of war". Yes, it is, at least as it pretended. But I believe the enemy will not identify it self. I will choose to display anonymous character. Anonymity is powerful. it share the power. It is easier to get prop onent with anonymity. It is not important for supporters who did it. And as Ed said, US will response this message with showing its power. this is intended, and be profited by the power behind this assault. Edmund Storms wrote: > > Dear All, > > Well, the United States has now declared war on the Arab > countries and set a course toward the end of civilization as > we know it. Before you reject this statement as being > totally irrational and extreme, take a few minutes to > consider what is happening now and what can be expected to > happen. America is outraged and angered at terrorism, for > good reason,. These terrorists are Arabs. These Arabs are > angered and outraged at the US, for good reasons. We and > they have been at war for many years, a situation about > which the general US population has been ignorant, except > during the Israel-Arab war and Desert Storm. Increasingly > following these obvious hostilities, hatred for the US has > been growing in many quarters. This hatred is fueled by > the behavior of Israel (with US help), a strong pride, and a > fundamental belief that Islam is the only true understanding > of this life and the spirit world. This religious belief > and strong hatred makes them willing to sacrifice their > lives for their cause, something not very common in any > society except in the time of war. > > So, the US, with the help of many other countries, starts > bombing various locations in some of the unfriendly Arab > countries where terrorists are thought to be located. The > TV shows the death and suffering of innocent people that > will result. People in the other Arab nations will identify > with their brothers in faith and will object. Arab > governments previously friendly will be overthrown. Having > neither an air force nor modern weapons, they will retaliate > any way they can. These attacks will be carried out by > suicide groups within the US and Europe, just as was done on > Sept. 11. Because the infrastructure of the US is complex > and exposed, they will have a devastating effect. > Meanwhile, we will become so paranoid that the US will > become an armed camp with great restrictions on travel and > behavior, especially by people of Arab ethnicity. > > As the situation escalates, the terrorists will acquire > nuclear and biological weapons which will be used. These > will be delivered to the US the same way tons of drugs are > now delivered. Perhaps some of these devices are already > here. We will not be able to retaliate except to kill more > Arabs thinking them a treat. Meanwhile our energy supply > will disappear and the US will go dark. This is the fate > Bush and our government are now presenting to the American > people, all in the name of wiping out terrorism. Once again > we are presented with a very reasonable and necessary > effort, but one that hides an important flaw, just like we > experienced in Vietnam in the past and now with the "War on > Drugs". The flaw in that the real problem is never > addressed, but is attacked in the most politically > convenient way using brute force rather than understanding > and intelligence. The tragedy now is compounded because we > have the most uninformed people and government that we have > had in many years. Just when we need leadership, we have > people who will take advantage of the justified anger to > further their own immediate political agenda. Meanwhile the > rest of us will pay the price for our ignorance and our > choice of leaders. We are now living in a true Greek > Tragedy because no other consequence is possible - too many > mistakes have been made, too many rules have been violated, > too many people have become outraged. For an individual, > the only defense is to stay out of the way of the train > wreak, not an easy task. > > With great sadness, > Ed Storms BTW, there isn't some underground paths, tunnels, sewers, to reach trapped people under WTC wreckage? hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 12:43:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA07050; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:41:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:41:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA25D7C.61171454 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:41:48 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: our fate - typo correction References: <3BA2233B.B6B56657 ix.netcom.com> <3BA2577D.2978D9B7@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YLwPt.0.vj1.crbex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In my last post the sentence "I will choose to display anonymous character." should be read as "It will choose to display anonymous character." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 12:43:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA07295; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:42:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:42:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA25DA2.EE1DBC9E ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:42:26 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Sep 14, 2001] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"94A3h3.0.vn1.Asbex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Sep 14, 2001 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:03:48 -0400 (EDT) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 14 Sep 01 Washington, DC WHAT'S NEW will not appear this week. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 12:58:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA14425; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:57:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:57:04 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010914132027.03851370 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:59:20 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Our fate? Remember the Cuban missile crisis In-Reply-To: <3BA2233B.B6B56657 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Fyc4R.0.FX3.G4cex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed: Things do not always turn out for worst. Sometimes, people pull back from the brink. The U.S. and the Russians did not go to war in 1962. Both sides made sensible concessions: the Russians backed down in Cuba, the U.S. agreed to pull missiles out of Turkey. Saddam Hussein never launched a poison gas attack against the Western armies. Even extremists think twice. I expect the governments of Afghanistan and Pakistan are reconsidering their support for terrorists. Sometimes an extreme act marks the end of a crisis, not the beginning. People may be capable of just about anything, but they also have an instinct for self preservation. >Meanwhile, we will become so paranoid that the US will >become an armed camp with great restrictions on travel and >behavior, especially by people of Arab ethnicity. This seems highly unlikely. The U.S. faced far greater peril in 1860, 1941 and 1962, yet by and large, civil liberties were preserved. I do not think the treatment of Japanese Americans during WWII will be repeated. >As the situation escalates, the terrorists will acquire >nuclear and biological weapons which will be used. This is the greatest immediate threat to the U.S.. We can reduce it by cooperating with the Russians, and helping them gather and destroy weapons. Some reports say Russian nuclear arsenals have less security than a U.S. Victoria's Secret warehouse. We can reduce this danger, even if we cannot eliminate it. Or we can make the problem worse by abandoning treaties, building Star Wars II, and triggering a nuclear arms race with China, India and Pakistan. >With great sadness, Buck up! People have pulled through much worse crises. All this talk about "war against terrorists" is simple minded, and it misses the point. This is not a war you can win with missiles and bombs. Naturally, terrorists should be arrested, but misery will only breed thousands more where they came from. We are at war with poverty, tyranny, ignorance, disease, senseless wars, fear of modernity. I have faith that man has free will, and sooner or later, we can eliminate these scourges. Peace, a decent living, education, clean water and democracy are the birthright of every person on earth. If they are given half a chance, people will secure these things for themselves. A few scientists may succeed in making cold fusion cells that work reliably, and they may convince the world that CF is real. They will do more to secure peace and progress than all the armies, missiles, bombs and airport x-ray machines. A simple tool that gives people light, heat and hope can do wonders. Technology is no panacea. It can be abused. But for people of good will, it is a blessing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 13:37:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02091; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:36:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:36:00 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010914155948.02b4b9d0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:36:14 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Prospects for Mills versus conventional CF In-Reply-To: <009601c13d4f$1f58ab60$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622 ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"tD8Dv1.0.aW.lecex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I do not understand these technical discussions of the Mills claims, but Jones Beene touched on some issues regarding practical technology I can address. He wrote: > > For many years now, he (MIlls) has given up on electrolysis altogether. >Why? If you look beyond the trees for that forest, the one known as >consumer marketing, it is apparently not imaginable that a viable >candidate for any real-world product is possible even when you stretch >everything in current CF to its limits. It is FAR too early to make that determination, in my opinion. Some of the gas loaded systems, such as Arata and Case, show great promise. The science is still in a primitive state! This is like discussing batteries a few years after Volta invented them. > No consumer is going to shell out the big bucks for hot >water, they want either kilowatts or torque. Roughly half of all energy used is low grade (below 100 deg C). This includes such things as space heating and many industrial processes. Many major high grade energy applications can be reengineered to use low grade heat -- for example, thermal air-conditioning can substitute for electrically powered compressors. More to the point, there is no reason to believe that cold fusion is limited to the low-grade temperature domain. Even liquid systems can be pressurized, and have operated at 150 to 200 deg C. > > E.S: As for shelling out big bucks for hot water, many people now send > big bucks for this item. As noted above, about half the money spent on energy goes to things like hot water. >The price of Pd has skyrocketed in recent years to triple the price of >gold because of catalytic mufflers etc, and despite this, the auto >manufacturers are just now beginning to find some alternatives. If a CF >product comes out that must use it, the increased demand would probably >drive the price even further into the stratosphere. An alternative to palladium would probably be an advantage. On the other hand, a cell may take only a very small amount of thin film or finely divided Pd, perhaps less than today's catalytic converters. Also, in some cases when the demand for a resource increases, the methods of finding and extracting the resource improve more rapidly than demand ramps up. In real dollars, oil is cheaper today than it ever has been, despite gigantic increases in consumption, and the depletion of many wells. >What I am saying is that the auto engine by its nature will only be >used a few hours a day and as Mills has said, you look out at any mall >parking lot in the future and what you see is a thousand little shiny 100 >kw power plants, just siting there waiting to be plugged into the grid. Maintaining an electric power distribution grid in a CF powered world would be economic insanity. We built the distribution grid because large, centralized generators are more energy-efficient, and they produce less pollution. When the cost of the fuel is effectively zero, with no measurable pollution, there would be no reason to spend millions of dollars per day to maintain the grid. >Forget hot water. Forget electrolysis. It's just not viable in the long term >unless Mills is blowing major smoke, and I wouldn't care to bet against him. His claims have not been independently confirmed or replicated, therefore I do not believe him. You do not place money on the table and make a bet until the cards are dealt. Until Mills deals his cards, all bets are off. >Direct electrical conversion is the only technology that makes long-term >economic sense for any type of CF. By its nature, it will squeeze out all >the others . If it actually works it may squeeze out the others. We have no proof that it even exists, and one does get tired of waiting year after year. It is a mistake to think that the most rational or efficient technology always wins. Automobile ICE and transmissions, the QWERTY keyboard are classic examples of "drastically suboptimal technology." They have survived competition with better, more efficient, cheaper technology for over a century, because they have the advantages of contingency and incumbency. Once a viable CF technology is established, and it becomes a standard, it may be difficult to displace with an improved CF or super-chemical hydrino technology. (The IBM PC architecture is another example of a suboptimal standard that refuses to die.) > But as I stated before, why don't the CF advocates/ scientists/ >inventors/ writers etc. all get together now with a little clarity and >resolve - and try to upstage BLP on direct conversion? It cannot be done with the present state of the art. If Mills can do it, he should hasten to do so, to establish the industry standard quickly. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 14:13:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA26366; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:10:29 -0400 From: Susan J Williams Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: Nostradamus prediction? Sender: Susan J Williams To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <200109141710_MC3-DFD7-2B8F compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id OAA26339 Resent-Message-ID: <"C3ZB01.0.tR6.5Adex" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Don't you just love those old Nostra wannabees. I'm sure they're all on retainer as global stringers for CNN. - Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 14:21:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA22963; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:19:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:19:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA2669E.270EEE8 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:21:23 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6@ix.netcom.com> <002f01c13d30$7c7743c0$aa69fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"blEwd2.0.Xc5.ZHdex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Yesterday, it seems that I missed several key points on Ed Storms negative > critique on possible hydrino/deuterino formation, here is another serious > problem with Ed's response: > > > First, when helium was measured, the amount corresponded very closely > with the amount of measured energy based on a fusion reaction > > > > it seems to me that the experiments in which He correlates exactly with > energy are in a distinct minority. Can you give me a references > > > Check my website and the paper "Critical Evaluation of the > Pons-Fleischmann Effect (Part 2)". > (http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html) > > Huh? > > Ed, with all due respect, I can find no study here that adequately supports > your contention. There are some largely unsubstantiated assertions but > "where's the beef"? Well, both Miles and Bush independently measured the relationship between heat and helium production, with good agreement. I think the operational word is "adequately supports". To me, the two studies, along with the more recent work of McKubre, "adequately supports" the claim that energy from CANR results from helium formation. The mechanism for the process is not known and may involve the Mills process. However, energy from hydrino formation does not have to be assumed. I agree, it is too early to completely reject the Mills process, especially under conditions he defines as necessary. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 14:36:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29462; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:35:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:35:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA267F7.D910A45B ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:27:09 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6@ix.netcom.com> <009601c13d4f$1f58ab60$aa69fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q6q3-.0.2C7.HWdex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > The P-F work has no patent protection, hence can be improved and patented, > > especially if the real explanation for the heat is demonstrated and found > not > > to correspond to the P-F claims. > > Not exactly. The fact that there was prior art, even if lapsed and the > explanation behind it is flawed, does not mean that it still may not prevail > in court. The patent system protects devices, not theories, not > explanations. Electrolytic Pd-D systems and also gas phase and probably some > cold plasma systems using D may be in the clear - at least as far as anyone > being able to obtain or defend a valid patent now. Mills may have plain > hydrogen locked up (maybe not) but as we both agree, the cost of D will be > negligible. > > If the field is arguably wide open, and if hot water is not a viable > consumer item, then why not pursue CF now in some form where direct > conversion into electricity is part of the package? I agree, electric power would be more useful than only heat. In fact, people are trying find ways to achieve CF at higher temperatures. My only point is that low temperature heat from CF is not completely useless, especially as a stepping stone to more useful applications. We must first learn to walk before we can run, especially because we are doing the work with nickels and dimes. Ed > > > Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 15:03:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA10457; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:01:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:01:36 -0700 Message-ID: <00df01c13d69$323fffc0$6501a8c0 Home> From: "Don Wiegel" To: Subject: Re: our fate Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:04:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"SR-f_.0.FZ2._udex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am a lurker .. I forwarded this thread to "my" local group. However, I feel this response to "Edmund Storms" statement (inside my group) had a place in the vortex group. We are just common people .. Thanks for allowing our input. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ------ Forwarded Message > From: Laura Norton > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:34:31 -0600 > Subject: RE: Our Fate > > There are a few problems with his premise. First, he seems to assume that > the majority of Arabs hate the U.S. and will respond to U.S. attacks on > terrorism with more terrorism. This may be true of a minority--a not > insignificant minority, since terrorism doesn't need numbers--but it isn't > true of the whole. The Arab world is not homogenous, any more than the > Communist world was homogenous during the Cold War. We should not make the > same mistakes regarding the Arab world that we did regarding the Communists. > There are those in the Arab world willing to kill themselves to hurt the > U.S. There are also, however, those in the Arab world willing to die to > prevent the deaths of innocent people. This guy seems to dismiss that as > insignificant. It is not. > > Second, he seems to forget that during the aftermath of the Gulf War, the > Mideast came closer to peace that at any time since the creation of the > state of Israel. The Gulf War made everyone in that part of the world sit > up and take notice of the danger they really faced if they allowed the chaos > of conflict to continue. I think this situation may do the same. There > will be tremendous pressure on Israel to compromise with the Palestinians, > regardless of the breastbeating about not caving in to terrorism. > > Finally, even if the apocalyptic scenario he describes does get started, and > we do end up with an escalation of terror, the number of terrorists is not > infinite. Far from it. So even if we do see an increase of terror, there > will also be a corresponding decrease in the number of terrorists, > particularly if the U.S. and its allies have the will to go after the > terrorists in preemptive strikes. At some point, the ability of terrorists > to organize will be impaired to the point that they will no longer be > effective. At that point, the incidences and impact of terror will > decrease, things will stabilize, and we will begin to recover. > > So I say to this guy, "Bull pucky." > > --L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 15:58:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06442; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:55:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:55:50 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:00:40 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: jimostr ca-ois.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: Schnurer Subject: force Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"rQJ3X.0.aa1.sheex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Jim and Vo, Below is short abstraction of letter about 'pie-pan levitator' This is an excellent example of induced current causing an external conduction (the pie pan) to behave as a time variant magnet in its own right. For general experimentation with induced currents, Foulcault or 'eddy' currents, this is a very good starting place. Attached is the complete description of the pie pan levitator that I think might be modified for experimentation with "force fields". That the levitator actually produces what can be called a force field is interesting in the context of the Allende Letters where "Carlos" alleges that this is what the PX was all about (generating a "force field"). Here are the possible similarities to Allende's description: 1. He alleges that putting ones hand in the field produced a detectable sensation. (not that I am entirely sure this occurs with the actual levitator but it seems to me that if eddy currents can be generated in the pie pan then the same kind of currents would appear in the conductive cells and salty blood plasma in one's hand, etc) 2. Resonance is used to achieve the effect. 3. Concentric coils similar in configuration to that which might be used in degaussing experiments. 4. Runs on available 60 hz power From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 17:25:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA14338; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:24:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:24:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:20:01 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Prospects for Mills versus conventional CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <00f001c13d7c$2975a760$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6@ix.netcom.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010914155948.02b4b9d0 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"dK-jr.0.vV3.L_fex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > It is FAR too early to make that determination [no real future for CF "hot water" applications], in my opinion. Some of the gas loaded systems, such as Arata and Case, show great promise. The science is still in a primitive state! This is like discussing batteries a few years after Volta invented them. On the contrary, Mills came onto the scene with his once-primitive technology shortly after P&F but it was so very similar then that it was always included in the same literature and journals as CF - up until the time Mills sought to distinguish his work, but that distinction is as much artificial as real (based probably on his notorious intellectual property paranoia). Mills was not especially well funded at first - and yes he does now have significant corporate funding, but there's a good reaon for that. Please remember this point: he did not make significant progress UNTIL he dropped electrolysis in favor of gas phase and then he almost immediately (six months later) went on to cold plasma, really a natural progression - a progression that Arata and Case should now attempt if they can get the funds. It's all eerily like biological *evolution* where the two branches have split off into separate lines. When one gets to a survival plateau (commercialization) the other may wilt, but - there is currently a possibility for accelerated advancement, borrowing on the success of your competitor. As a technology historian, surely Rothwell can appreciate the similarities here when they are contrasted with the race between Apple (early advancer) and Microsoft (savvy borrower of ideas). I remember on two seperate occasions in the 1988-89, seeing Bill Gates, whose net worth was probably negative at the time, in front of BMUG (the Berkeley Macintosh Users Group) humbled but defiant amidst the valid criticism of a lame OS. He was able to overcome all his problems by carfully implementing (that can be read as either "borrowing" or "stealing") Apple's look and feel, and in only a remarkably few years he was to become the world's richest man. The situation may not be all that different right now, as we speak. LENR, under someone's careful foresight, WILL likely be the commercial world's "next big thing." Just who that next-Gates will be - will also probably be decided in the coming year or two. There is at present a 1-2 year lag for CF vis-a-vis BLP in this race - since no one in CF was able to get that funding kick that Mills got when he went to gas phase, but that could be minimized if some of the CF people would take a close look (that can be also read as either "borrowing" or "stealing") at what Mills is doing now (and, of course, find that increasingly elusive VC angel). You could see the evolution clearly if you had closely followed the BLP web site over just the last three years. He never really had anything special except a controversial theory until he switched from electrolysis to gas phase and then to cold plasma! He borrowed the reverse gyrotron idea, probably from an article in Fusion Technology in 1999, the same issue that also published some of his gas phase work. But I suspect, from some of the remarks here, that many CF people just remember the old Mills and still haven't looked at the newer material (there are photos of the reverse gyrotron in operation and I don't think they could just be movie props) - and basically are still judging Mills by those pre-1999 memories. > > No consumer is going to shell out the big bucks for hot water, they want either kilowatts or torque... > Roughly half of all energy used is low grade (below 100 deg C). This includes such things as space heating and many industrial processes. Many major high grade energy applications can be reengineered to use low grade heat -- for example, thermal air-conditioning can substitute for electrically powered compressors. High quality, low cost energy (electricity) can always crowd out low quality lower-cost energy, just from the convenience standpoint. Sure, space heating can be accomplished with low quality energy, but the net cost will be higher because of the added harware. We see millions more electric space heaters being sold in the US even though they may cost 4 times more to operate than kerosene - the list goes on and on. We already have in place the electricity infastructure, and that is a major convenience that no low-grade energy source can compete adequately against so long as electricity remains relatively cheap compared to the capital cost of the low grade source. > >What I am saying is that the auto engine by its nature will only be > >used a few hours a day and as Mills has said, you look out at any mall > >parking lot in the future and what you see is a thousand little shiny 100 > >kw power plants, just siting there waiting to be plugged into the grid. > Maintaining an electric power distribution grid in a CF powered world would be economic insanity. Nonsense! The grid is already here and maintenance, as opposed to building it from scratch is "de minimis" - far less per capita than adding an additional CF heater to every garage which also happened to already have a LENR/ direct conversion electric powered vehicle. Like it or not, motor vehicles will likely always be the prime adaptation and high margin aim for every new energy technology. > His claims have not been independently confirmed or replicated, therefore I > do not believe him. OK. If you look at his site you will see many independent claims of confirmation, from the likes even of Lincoln Labs. I will have to agree with you that the degree to which they are truly independent is suspect. But at least have a look before you make such a blanket denial. There are some serious independent players who have weighed-in for Mills > It cannot be done with the present state of the art. If Mills can do it, he > should hasten to do so, to establish the industry standard quickly. If Case and Arata wait until Mills actually starts selling his product, they can kiss off ever getting funding. They have a very short window of opportunity and it is now. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 17:50:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA24203; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:49:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:49:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA297E7.D3F51984 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:52:01 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: our fate References: <00df01c13d69$323fffc0$6501a8c0 Home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"faBJ1.0.0w5.8Mgex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for the response, and I hope your analysis is more correct than mine. My intent is to raise possible consequences that need to be considered and addressed before it is too late. Also, I do not think the majority of Arabs hate the US. However, this attitude is sufficiently common to provide money, support and recruits for terrorism at a significant level. The big question that remains to be answered is, will the various Arab nations wipe out the terrorist organizations within their borders? The answer to this question will define just what the majority of Arabs believe. Ed Storms Don Wiegel wrote: > I am a lurker .. I forwarded this thread to "my" local group. > However, I feel this response to "Edmund Storms" statement > (inside my group) had a place in the vortex group. We are just > common people .. Thanks for allowing our input. > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > ------ Forwarded Message > > From: Laura Norton > > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:34:31 -0600 > > Subject: RE: Our Fate > > > > There are a few problems with his premise. First, he seems to assume that > > the majority of Arabs hate the U.S. and will respond to U.S. attacks on > > terrorism with more terrorism. This may be true of a minority--a not > > insignificant minority, since terrorism doesn't need numbers--but it isn't > > true of the whole. The Arab world is not homogenous, any more than the > > Communist world was homogenous during the Cold War. We should not make > the > > same mistakes regarding the Arab world that we did regarding the > Communists. > > There are those in the Arab world willing to kill themselves to hurt the > > U.S. There are also, however, those in the Arab world willing to die to > > prevent the deaths of innocent people. This guy seems to dismiss that as > > insignificant. It is not. > > > > Second, he seems to forget that during the aftermath of the Gulf War, the > > Mideast came closer to peace that at any time since the creation of the > > state of Israel. The Gulf War made everyone in that part of the world sit > > up and take notice of the danger they really faced if they allowed the > chaos > > of conflict to continue. I think this situation may do the same. There > > will be tremendous pressure on Israel to compromise with the Palestinians, > > regardless of the breastbeating about not caving in to terrorism. > > > > Finally, even if the apocalyptic scenario he describes does get started, > and > > we do end up with an escalation of terror, the number of terrorists is not > > infinite. Far from it. So even if we do see an increase of terror, there > > will also be a corresponding decrease in the number of terrorists, > > particularly if the U.S. and its allies have the will to go after the > > terrorists in preemptive strikes. At some point, the ability of > terrorists > > to organize will be impaired to the point that they will no longer be > > effective. At that point, the incidences and impact of terror will > > decrease, things will stabilize, and we will begin to recover. > > > > So I say to this guy, "Bull pucky." > > > > --L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 18:49:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA17882; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:48:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:48:13 -0700 Message-ID: <005201c13da1$67b92360$9a50ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <00df01c13d69$323fffc0$6501a8c0 Home> <3BA297E7.D3F51984@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: our fate Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:45:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"2Kbqp3.0.JN4.TDhex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed said, > Thanks for the response, and I hope your analysis is more correct than mine. > My intent is to raise possible consequences that need to be considered and > addressed before it is too late. We can scare ourselves to death with what-ifs and some liberals have tried to paint Bush as a reckless cowboy. What I have seen over the last few days in -- for me -- intense TV viewing is marked evidence of restraint and caution against over-reaction. As Jed said, this is a lot different from the McCarthy era, which thee and me lived through. Cities have put police guards around Islamic Mosques. There is clear evidence of a deep rethinking of threats and strategies, not blind lashing out at countries and populations; even threats to eliminate supportive governments do not necessarily imply carpet bombing of civilians. We have seen the limits of previous strategies in the Gulf War, and Colin Powell is not a stupid man; I'm very happy to see him as Secretary of State. Also, I do not think the majority of Arabs > hate the US. However, this attitude is sufficiently common to provide money, > support and recruits for terrorism at a significant level. The money necessary to support the recent operation is pocket change for someone like bin Laden or any of dozens of oil millionaires. You place a dozen people in the US for a year, pay for flight school and some airline tickets. There is more, of course. But the cost-effectiveness of this particular ploy is spectacular. The billions it will cost the US is still pocket change for us, unless in our over-reaction we cripple the airline industry. The basic factor is the willingness to take casualties. If we want a perfectly safe society, any snarl will paralyze us. The Israelis daily live with the threat of suicide bombers, yet life goes on. It is too easy to generalize about Arabs and Islam, and to confuse conservative tribal attitudes with the whole of the Arabian world, which is diverse and ancient. There was a time when the Arab Islamic world held the torch of justice and learning while Europe sank into cruelty and ignorance. Our culture is alluring and from some viewpoints, decadent and our democratic ways a threat to ancient verities of domestic order. Some countries see this as a threat, and even our allies the Saudis outlaw satellite receivers that give easy entry to US television culture. The big question > that remains to be answered is, will the various Arab nations wipe out the > terrorist organizations within their borders? The answer to this question will > define just what the majority of Arabs believe. And that is an interesting question. Most of the Arab state are not democracies. The state controls the press and the economy. The terrorist factions are fueled by unrest and inequitable distribution of wealth. Pakistan, for example, would like closer ties to the US, but they are in dispute with India, the world's largest democracy, which has been neglected by US policy. Asking Pakistan to crack down on terrorists at the bidding of the US would enrage an already restive population. There are no easy answers here. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 19:54:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA11445; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:53:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:53:08 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Charles Ford Subject: Re: The Chickens are coming home to roost. Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:02:29 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <4.2.0.58.20010912224743.00a27d50 pop.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010912224743.00a27d50 pop.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091423022900.04856 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA11405 Resent-Message-ID: <"s92BK2.0.ho2.JAiex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 12 September 2001 21:38, Charles Ford wrote: > At 04:38 PM 9/11/01 -0700, Dan Quickert wrote: > >Keith Nagel wrote: > > > Standing Bear writes: > > > >We should fry Iraq and Afghanistan in a sea of nuclear fire > > > >enough to burn for 100 thousand years. > > > > > > Perhaps this kind of thinking was what caused the incident > > > in the first place? > > > >Exactly. I abhor violent tactics such as we saw today, but the reasons for > >them are clear. The best deterrent to terrorism is to not be a target, and > >our country by its actions has made itself a prime target. > > > >Like like it or not, much of the world considers the United States to be > >the world's biggest bully and terrorist itself. Examples: the inhumane > >blockade and defacto murder of the people of Iran; the military and > >monetary support of Israel's attacks on Palestinian civilians (in refugee > >camps!), the funding and support of the Contras and other right-wing murder > >squads in Central America... the list goes on and on. > > > >The _only_ defense against a militarily invincible, aggressive enemy is > >guerrilla (ie terrorist) tactics. And "getting them back" will only draw > >more fire. The best way to prevent more attacks is to quit being such a > >beligerent, anti-human-rights, what's-good-for-business-is-what-we-support, > >damn the common people, bully; and to put much of that money that goes into > >"defense" into helping common people around the world get out from under > >the feet of their oppressors - rather than being one. > > > >Dan Quickert > > > Dan: > > I had to calm down a bit before responding to this. I am sure that you > would rather the calm response. I think you are looking only at the bad > side of things. You call for justice and see only the prosecutors half > truth. You mention the blockade of Iran but never mentioned the reasons > for the blockade. You mentioned our support of Israel and forget about the > hell bent cruelty and hate and bloodlust nurtured by the Palestine > people. You mentioned the contra support and forgot about the drug lords > who still heartlessly kill Americans for there own love of money. > > They blame Americas for there own inability to let go of a thousand > generations of there own hatred. They blame America for there own refusal > to put away there ignorance. But mostly they blame us for being on > top. You see there is also envy. Whenever there is a chance they rush to > America and ask for political sanctuary. > > You mentioned the funds we spend on defence and totally forgot the billions > we spend on aide. You forgot to mention that American relief is first on > scene in times of tragedy. An you forgot to mention that nobody lifts a > finger to help us. That is until now. You also stated "much of the world > considers the United States to be > the world's biggest bully and terrorist itself." But now it seems that > much of the world is in our camp. > > I will refer you to this editorial. > > > America: The Good Neighbor. > > > > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a > > remarkable > > editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television > > commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as > > printed in the Congressional Record: > > > > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most > > generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the > > earth.Germany, > > Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the > > debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and > > forgave > > other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the > > interest on its remaining debts to the United States. > > > > When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who > > propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the > > streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. > > > > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries > > in > > to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. > > Nobody helped. > > > > The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into > > discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about > > the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those > > countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar > > build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane > > to > > equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If > > so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except > > Russia fly American Planes? > > > > Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on > > the > > moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk > > about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. > > > > You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not > > once, but several times - and safely home again. > > > > You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store > > window for everybody! to look at. > > > > Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our > > streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are > > getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. > > > > When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through > > age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad > > and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. > > Both > > are still broke. > > > > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other > > people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced > > to > > the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during > > the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm > > one > > Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will > > come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are > > entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their > > present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those." > > > > Stand proud, America! > > > Hi All, Looks like this provoked quite a thought inducing debate. The above poem is actually a lyric written by a news caster for the Canadian station CKLW out of Windsor, Ontario back in the early 70's. That announcer passed away about 6 years ago, but the words ring quite true. Some nations, to be sure, have offered us help this time. The Israelis sent us emergency teams and dogs to help locate survivors in the rubble pile. On the other hand, the Trade Center has been shown to be an overdesigned (or under depending on how one looks at it) wonder constructed on a budget to maximize office space in a small place. A cage structure designed by computer resizing and allocation of forces among interdependant members in three dimensions, perhaps too little factor of safety was considered. Certainly insufficient fire protection was built into the detailing of the beams and columns. Witnessing the collapse from the relative comfort of my living room on television, I could see just how and knew a minute or so when it was going to go. In a word, it was pythagorean columnar failure on at least one primary node among the overstressed and overheated columns in the central core as melt and debris concentrated heat and weight on sagging centers of affected floors. Like ponding water on a weak roof, a point of failure was reached. The direction of fall of the overburden structure above the incendiary missile insertion point was probably dictated by the location of the missing support members at the crash entrance. When the columns initially collapsed, then the whole weight impact loaded the next column series down along the acceleration path. The collapses became a cascade dictated by Davis Mechanics which were not taken into account and frowned on or just not known in the late 60's when it was designed and the early 70's when it was built. Outside of Placerville, California are the ruins of an old factory, steel and concrete which had been destroyed by fire probably in the 1950's but in 1975 no one had cleaned it up yet. Huge steel beams, A36 (E=36Ksi), of the type used for construction before special high strength steels were know about much utilized in practical design, lay about curled up like so much spaghetti. My concrete prof would talk about steel beam failures due to fire, while my steel prof would talk about failures of concrete due to ignorance and/or greed. He mentioned about the Placerville site, so I just had to go and have a look. I had never even dreamed that steel which always LOOKs so strong could have that happen to it in a fire. That fire in the towers was a very instense inferno that no design firm would have practically assumed would have happened. The resulting overdesign would have never been built, too expensive. Basic fire design as outlined in the NFPA-101 fire code is roughly a 5/8 inch layer of X rated gyp board per 1/2 hour of fire exposure (approx 1200 degrees F.). The fire temperature of that amount of jet fuel was probably much higher. Those terrorists probably knew this, and knew about Davis Mechanics too. Just because our engineers decided that this was not socially acceptable science does not mean that a terrorist engineer would think the same way. Far from it. They knew that: F = mass X ( sum of Taylor series of infinite elements: C sub n ( d sub n V/ dT^n) and not just f=ma like most of us learned in engineering school. With the calculus and differential equations we could make that hell enough to deal with (ever fiddled with quadruple integrals involving volume centroids considering density?). What it boils down to is the ignored (or fatuously discarded) terms in the force equation having to do with the extra forces due to onset of acceleration become very signifigant in impact situations. That is why we all saw those buildings literally 'shiver' from the inside as the core dropped faster than the outside, forcing the outside portions to mushroom away from it out to the sides, then down. It was a horrible sight to see, knowing that all that concrete literally grinding itself to dust contained thousands of fellow americans, also being ground in the same manner. To me, this smacks not only of Bin Laden, but also Sadaam Hussain. It was he who hired the scientist Bull who built for him that super cannon in the early 1990's. That was a long acceleration path cannon that also used the above principles of Davis Mechanics. Oh yes. The army knows about this too. That is why they call the main gun of the Abrams tank a 'Davis' gun but do not explain why it is called so. Classified technology? I do not know! If our enemies know about it, then maybe we should teach it in our schools. We ignore it at our peril! If we continue to hold our heads in the sand in this way, God help us all. Standing Bear rockcast net-link.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 20:13:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA19665; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:11:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:11:46 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Mike Carrell" Subject: Re: our fate Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:21:07 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <00df01c13d69$323fffc0$6501a8c0 Home> <3BA297E7.D3F51984@ix.netcom.com> <005201c13da1$67b92360$9a50ccd1@asus> In-Reply-To: <005201c13da1$67b92360$9a50ccd1 asus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091423210701.04856 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA19640 Resent-Message-ID: <"UTAFW.0.Bp4.oRiex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday 14 September 2001 21:45, Mike Carrell wrote: > Ed said, > > > > Thanks for the response, and I hope your analysis is more correct than > mine. > > My intent is to raise possible consequences that need to be considered and > > addressed before it is too late. > > We can scare ourselves to death with what-ifs and some liberals have tried > to paint Bush as a reckless cowboy. What I have seen over the last few days > in -- for me -- intense TV viewing is marked evidence of restraint and > caution against over-reaction. As Jed said, this is a lot different from the > McCarthy era, which thee and me lived through. Cities have put police guards > around Islamic Mosques. There is clear evidence of a deep rethinking of > threats and strategies, not blind lashing out at countries and populations; > even threats to eliminate supportive governments do not necessarily imply > carpet bombing of civilians. We have seen the limits of previous strategies > in the Gulf War, and Colin Powell is not a stupid man; I'm very happy to see > him as Secretary of State. > > Also, I do not think the majority of Arabs > > hate the US. However, this attitude is sufficiently common to provide > money, > > support and recruits for terrorism at a significant level. > > The money necessary to support the recent operation is pocket change for > someone like bin Laden or any of dozens of oil millionaires. You place a > dozen people in the US for a year, pay for flight school and some airline > tickets. There is more, of course. But the cost-effectiveness of this > particular ploy is spectacular. The billions it will cost the US is still > pocket change for us, unless in our over-reaction we cripple the airline > industry. > > The basic factor is the willingness to take casualties. If we want a > perfectly safe society, any snarl will paralyze us. The Israelis daily live > with the threat of suicide bombers, yet life goes on. > > It is too easy to generalize about Arabs and Islam, and to confuse > conservative tribal attitudes with the whole of the Arabian world, which is > diverse and ancient. There was a time when the Arab Islamic world held the > torch of justice and learning while Europe sank into cruelty and ignorance. > Our culture is alluring and from some viewpoints, decadent and our > democratic ways a threat to ancient verities of domestic order. Some > countries see this as a threat, and even our allies the Saudis outlaw > satellite receivers that give easy entry to US television culture. > > The big question > > that remains to be answered is, will the various Arab nations wipe out the > > terrorist organizations within their borders? The answer to this question > will > > define just what the majority of Arabs believe. > > And that is an interesting question. Most of the Arab state are not > democracies. The state controls the press and the economy. The terrorist > factions are fueled by unrest and inequitable distribution of wealth. > Pakistan, for example, would like closer ties to the US, but they are in > dispute with India, the world's largest democracy, which has been neglected > by US policy. Asking Pakistan to crack down on terrorists at the bidding of > the US would enrage an > already restive population. > > There are no easy answers here. > > Mike Carrell Not to mention that the Pakistanis are militarily allied with the Chinese and to the Taliban. Bin Laden was exiled from Saudi Arabia, his homeland, for seditious activity against the King. He never had to earn his money. He inherited it from his father. He was the poor little rich boy with time on his hands that became the devil's workshop. He went into exile to several countries with his 'supporters'. In Afghanistan his supporters are called 'Afghan Arabs'. Some sources imply that these AAs are the military center of the Taliban regime without which the Talibans would fall from power. If that is the case, then Sheik Omar cannot afford to hand Bin Laden over, for then soon he would himself lose power, and in Afghanistan losing power means ending up like the old Khalq dictator Najibullah-----hanged on a lamp post. I cannot imagine Bin Laden doing this stupid thing unless he had assurances from China of support. If this is true, then we are in for a long war, and a bloody one. We will need to be very close to India, and to Russia in this one. China has 75,000,000 troops in its 'Great Wall of Iron'. We have no choice but to pursue this war though, as the loss of face incurred by not fighting would lead to even greater losses in the future......like maybe paying 50 dollars a gallon for gas from stations owned by Iraq! It may boil down to death or starvation and slavery if we do not fight. We did not take care of China in 1949, we will take care of them now at a far, far greater cost. Standing Bear rockcast net-link.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 20:22:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA23977; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:21:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:21:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA2BB80.551DB9FE ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:24:07 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: our fate References: <00df01c13d69$323fffc0$6501a8c0 Home> <3BA297E7.D3F51984@ix.netcom.com> <005201c13da1$67b92360$9a50ccd1@asus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yhdLj1.0.Zs5.0biex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > Ed said, > > > Thanks for the response, and I hope your analysis is more correct than > mine. > > My intent is to raise possible consequences that need to be considered and > > addressed before it is too late. > > We can scare ourselves to death with what-ifs and some liberals have tried > to paint Bush as a reckless cowboy. What I have seen over the last few days > in -- for me -- intense TV viewing is marked evidence of restraint and > caution against over-reaction. As Jed said, this is a lot different from the > McCarthy era, which thee and me lived through. Cities have put police guards > around Islamic Mosques. There is clear evidence of a deep rethinking of > threats and strategies, not blind lashing out at countries and populations; > even threats to eliminate supportive governments do not necessarily imply > carpet bombing of civilians. We have seen the limits of previous strategies > in the Gulf War, and Colin Powell is not a stupid man; I'm very happy to see > him as Secretary of State. I agree with you Mike. Colin Powell will be as cautious as he was during Desert Storm where he argued not to chase Husain back to Baghdad. Now, the caution might be very good. On the other hand, caution is what we have used in the past and people wonder what we have gained. > > > Also, I do not think the majority of Arabs > > hate the US. However, this attitude is sufficiently common to provide > money, > > support and recruits for terrorism at a significant level. > > The money necessary to support the recent operation is pocket change for > someone like bin Laden or any of dozens of oil millionaires. You place a > dozen people in the US for a year, pay for flight school and some airline > tickets. There is more, of course. But the cost-effectiveness of this > particular ploy is spectacular. The billions it will cost the US is still > pocket change for us, unless in our over-reaction we cripple the airline > industry. I suggest significant money must also be sent to the families of terrorists as a reward for a successful mission. This may not be much, but I suggest the cost is not trivial even though it is cost effective. > > > The basic factor is the willingness to take casualties. If we want a > perfectly safe society, any snarl will paralyze us. The Israelis daily live > with the threat of suicide bombers, yet life goes on. Yes, but their economy is a basket case, which without our help would collapse. In addition, life does not exactly go on because the next generation is being damaged at psychological levels that are hard to change later. > > > It is too easy to generalize about Arabs and Islam, and to confuse > conservative tribal attitudes with the whole of the Arabian world, which is > diverse and ancient. There was a time when the Arab Islamic world held the > torch of justice and learning while Europe sank into cruelty and ignorance. > Our culture is alluring and from some viewpoints, decadent and our > democratic ways a threat to ancient verities of domestic order. Some > countries see this as a threat, and even our allies the Saudis outlaw > satellite receivers that give easy entry to US television culture. For this protection from TV, the society is probably better off. While I agree the Arab cultures are ancient and have an attitude toward life that I respect. However, Islam is a faith that is slow to change, especially in face of the rapid changes required in the modern world. Their failure to change is one of the reasons such poverty exists there and one of the reasons such hatred exists toward modern ideas, some of which I hate as well. Islam is so integrated into the social structure that it is difficult to separate the religion from how everyday life is carried out. In contrast, although Christianity guides us and does not change very rapidly either, our everyday life is not controlled by our faith, sometimes to our disadvantage. > > > The big question > > that remains to be answered is, will the various Arab nations wipe out the > > terrorist organizations within their borders? The answer to this question > will > > define just what the majority of Arabs believe. > > And that is an interesting question. Most of the Arab state are not > democracies. The state controls the press and the economy. The terrorist > factions are fueled by unrest and inequitable distribution of wealth. > Pakistan, for example, would like closer ties to the US, but they are in > dispute with India, the world's largest democracy, which has been neglected > by US policy. Asking Pakistan to crack down on terrorists at the bidding of > the US would enrage an > already restive population. All this is true and we have been patient in ignoring the internal conflicts, as we should. However, this general conflict has now been visited upon us, perhaps in an indirect way. While no easy answers exist, the US will do something no matter how disruptive just to satisfy the anger that exists here. Business as usual will just not be tolerated. Ed > > > There are no easy answers here. > > Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 14 22:42:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA05673; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:41:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:41:07 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: our fate Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:40:51 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <00df01c13d69$323fffc0$6501a8c0 Home> <3BA297E7.D3F51984@ix.netcom.com> <005201c13da1$67b92360$9a50ccd1@asus> <01091423210701.04856@tyrannosaur> In-Reply-To: <01091423210701.04856 tyrannosaur> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA05641 Resent-Message-ID: <"kt5Sv1.0.YO1.pdkex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Standing Bear's message of Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:21:07 -0700: [snip] >in the future......like maybe paying 50 dollars a gallon for >gas from stations owned by Iraq! It may boil down to [snip] Which is exactly what is needed to get some of the FE schemes out of the black budget labs and into general use. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 15 06:56:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA01232; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 06:55:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 06:55:08 -0700 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 06:50:27 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Prospects for Mills versus conventional CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <001901c13ded$60ffb9c0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6@ix.netcom.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010914155948.02b4b9d0 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"ncibJ2.0.7J.xsrex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just this morning Mills has posted a to the HSG forum excerpts from a new paper submitted to the Int. J. Hydrogen Energy that contains more significant and easily tested claims. In most experiments he uses a cold plasma, not much more intense in its parameters than that which is found in a fluorescent tube. I haven't read the complete paper yet but here is an excerpt: "Upon the addition of 5% argon catalyst to a hydrogen plasma, the Lyman alpha emission [spectral line] was observed to increase by about an order of magnitude which indicated an increase in the plasma temperature; whereas, krypton control had no effect." Think about this. You have a cold hydrogen plasma which is a fairly efficient light source anyway, but you can increase its photon output by an order of magnitude by adding a little argon. THIS IS AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE, FOLKS. If that doesn't start ringing some bells with free energy experimenters, then perhaps they have chosen the wrong field. "... the energy balances of argon-hydrogen glow discharge plasmas were measured using Calvet calorimetry... An energy balance of over -151,000 kJ/mole H2 was measured compared to the enthalpy of combustion of hydrogen of -241.8 kJ/mole H2." Doesn't this work out to a COP over 6? Rothwell may choose not to believe it since he apparently doesn't trust either Mills' integrity or Calvet calorimetry. That is his prerogative. Mills could be perpetrating a gigantic hoax, but think about it for a second. He's got fifty or so PhDs working for him - can you really find that many who would be willing to go along with a hoax or even a self-deception. If so, please mention it to the peer review panel over at the Int. Journal of Hydrogen Energy. Partial Citation: R. Mills, J. Dong, W. Good, P. Ray, J. He, B. Dhandapani, Measurement of Energy Balances of Noble Gas-Hydrogen Discharge Plasmas Using Calvet Calorimetry. (recently submitted to Int. J. Hydrogen Energy, not published) Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 15 08:15:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA30149; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:14:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:14:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:14:00 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Ball lightning made with TC Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"jZjrR3.0.vM7.01tex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:44:08 -0700 From: form entry ------------------------------------------------------ I have been able to produce ball lightning with my Tesla coils. I have found that the parallel resonant primary circuit seems to work the best. Also the amount of input/output power determines ball size. My first balls were about 1-3mm with a 7500v 30ma xfmr. I got balls to 5mm with a 9000v 30ma xfmr, and up to 1cm at 15kv 60ma. I used a source of carbon, consisting of a small chunk of car tire on a sharp pointed #6 wire. Before I start the coil, I set the car tire on fire. The fireballs seem to form in the flame and some in the soot cloud above. My photographs show bright blue white balls, with some purples and pinks. I also was able to capture a shot of an ember being ejected. It was nowhere near the brightness of the observed fireballs in the picture. Also what seems to work is carbon powder on the terminal. My work on this seems to parallel a friends observation. Growing up in West Virginia, he lived near a steel bridge. After electrical storms they would sometimes see ball lightning near the bridge. He told me that the bridge abutments were filled with coal instead of stone, because it was cheaper in those days. Again electricity and carbon. I have a book, I think the name is ALL ABOUT LIGHTNING. It has one report of ball lightning in a KC-135 tanker aircraft. They reported St. Elmos fire around the cockpit windows before the event. As I am a former jet aircraft mechanic, I can tell you that there is always a layer of soot on and inside of those craft. Again electricity and carbon. This could be the cause of the missile reports in the Flight 800 Disaster. If the static dischargers were broken, static would build up quickly, possibily producing fireballs off the outer surface and interior. I do have a static discharger for a 747, and if the plastic tip gets broken off it does not discharge well. I am taking this to the NTSB as soon as I finish upgrading from my Apple II+ and get my own internet account. David E Weiss Oshkosh, WI USA - Friday, September 14, 2001 at 17:44:07 (PDT) ------------------------------------------------------ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 15 08:43:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06392; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:36:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:36:03 -0700 Message-ID: <002a01c13df9$6d5ac1e0$67a8f1c3 p7l2i4> From: "peter v Noorden" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com><005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com><006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9@cpq><006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626@varisys.com><7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7@4ax .com><003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com><004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6@ix.netcom.com><5.0.2.1.2.20010914155948.02b4b9d0@pop.mindspring.com> <001901c13ded$60ffb9c0$aa69fea9@cpq> Subject: Re: Prospects for Mills versus conventional CF Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 17:16:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"pyVUM2.0.oZ1.ZLtex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: ... An energy balance of over -151,000 > kJ/mole H2 was measured compared to the enthalpy of combustion of hydrogen > of -241.8 kJ/mole H2." > > Doesn't this work out to a COP over 6? It is my understanding that the measured 151,000 kJ/mole H2 is 600! times the enthalpy of combustion of hydrogen. This means that about 1000eV/ H2 will be released .( normally the energy release by combustion is 1.5 eV) Wouldn`t that correspond to a COP of 600? Peter van Noorden From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 15 09:23:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23075; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:21:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:21:46 -0700 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:17:04 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Prospects for Mills versus conventional CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <000701c13e01$dbfa7c00$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6@ix.netcom.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010914155948.02b4b9d0 pop.mindspring.com> <001901c13ded$60ffb9c0$aa69fea9 cpq> <002a01c13df9$6d5ac1e0$67a8f1c3@p7l2i4> Resent-Message-ID: <"KAzDY3.0.Re5.P0uex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "peter v Noorden" > Wouldn`t that correspond to a COP of 600? Indeed. Thank you for the correction. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 15 09:42:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA28560; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:35:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:35:54 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, William Beaty , freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ball lightning made with TC Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:45:16 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091512451600.02865 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA28480 Resent-Message-ID: <"ScPkQ3.0.4-6.gDuex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Saturday 15 September 2001 08:14, William Beaty wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:44:08 -0700 > From: form entry > ------------------------------------------------------ > Still using an Apple ][+, the Woz' wonder? That is what I call dedication. As an original Apple fan that left, I truly sympathize. The Apple ][ series was plagued by keyboard controller failures of a random nature. The controllers were OK and did not have to be replaced, as you would only get another one that would work the same way. I think that they were socketed IC's located under the keyboard on the motherboard. It was a long wide IC that kinda looked like a PROM. Never did have an Apple that would stay on more than 5 hours before the keyboard locked up tighter than a drum. Usually only resulted in a lost game session, as I never did trust it with anything important. For that matter, I do not trust Windows with anything important either if I feel that handing it to Microsoft or its lackeys and cronies would compromise its value. Especially any version after Win98 version 2. Millenium, I understand, calls Redmond every time it is started if it has the internet anywhere available to it. XP will be worse by far. The end of the series is ultimately to charge us by the minute of use for using our own computers. Who knows, maybe there will be premiums and surcharges if we have really goood computers. Standing Bear rockcast net-link.net look for a program called ss..... something as the culprit that calls Microsoft on the web when Millenium starts. An old friend in network programming says that he found it and told me about it. If you have a firewall, maybe you can catch it red handed and tell us about it with 'the rest of the story' as Paul Harvey, God rest his soul, would say. From rockcast net-link.net Sat Sep 15 09:35:52 2001 Received: from mail4.mx.voyager.net (mail4.mx.voyager.net [216.93.66.203]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28480; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:35:46 -0700 Received: from tyrannosaur (d146.as1.strg.mi.voyager.net [207.89.169.52]) by mail4.mx.voyager.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id f8ECWcr03813; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:32:38 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, William Beaty , freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ball lightning made with TC Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:45:16 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091512451600.02865 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA28480 Status: RO X-Status: On Saturday 15 September 2001 08:14, William Beaty wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:44:08 -0700 > From: form entry > ------------------------------------------------------ > Still using an Apple ][+, the Woz' wonder? That is what I call dedication. As an original Apple fan that left, I truly sympathize. The Apple ][ series was plagued by keyboard controller failures of a random nature. The controllers were OK and did not have to be replaced, as you would only get another one that would work the same way. I think that they were socketed IC's located under the keyboard on the motherboard. It was a long wide IC that kinda looked like a PROM. Never did have an Apple that would stay on more than 5 hours before the keyboard locked up tighter than a drum. Usually only resulted in a lost game session, as I never did trust it with anything important. For that matter, I do not trust Windows with anything important either if I feel that handing it to Microsoft or its lackeys and cronies would compromise its value. Especially any version after Win98 version 2. Millenium, I understand, calls Redmond every time it is started if it has the internet anywhere available to it. XP will be worse by far. The end of the series is ultimately to charge us by the minute of use for using our own computers. Who knows, maybe there will be premiums and surcharges if we have really goood computers. Standing Bear rockcast net-link.net look for a program called ss..... something as the culprit that calls Microsoft on the web when Millenium starts. An old friend in network programming says that he found it and told me about it. If you have a firewall, maybe you can catch it red handed and tell us about it with 'the rest of the story' as Paul Harvey, God rest his soul, would say. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 15 09:49:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA00646; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:48:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:48:32 -0700 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:43:51 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Ball lightning made with TC To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <001401c13e05$99aa06a0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: Resent-Message-ID: <"zLA1Y2.0.o9.VPuex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "William Beaty" > The fireballs seem to form in the flame and some in the soot cloud ... Does this have any relevance to the Case experiments using carbon? If so, and please excuse me for belaboring the points that are being addressed in some of the other threads (relating to the cross-connections between Mills and CF), then is it one more instance of anomalous energy (possibly) showing up in low energy plasma. The next logical question then is,"why don't you always have anomalous energy showing up in hydrocarbon combustion, since there is usually present in combustion the necessary hydrino forming ingredients: hydrogen and a catalytic matrix material (carbon)?" One answer is that hydrocarbon combustion rarely is attempted in a near vacuum. The function of the Tesla coil could be both to create a low pressure energized space where a Mills reaction is occurring, and to create a needed convergence zone (globular vortex), concurrent with hydrocarbon combustion. Yes, it's a stretch...isn't it? I think it is Bill B. himself who occasionally remarks that "when one's favorite tool is a hammer, every problem has nails." Be that as it may, I still hope that Case will read this and run an experiment where he adds a little argon to his operating cell to see if he gets anything like the gain that Mills is reporting. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 15 12:36:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA18976; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:03:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:03:26 -0700 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:08:55 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Jones Beene cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Missed 600 COP ...Mills versus conventional CF In-Reply-To: <000701c13e01$dbfa7c00$aa69fea9 cpq> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"In5Rw2.0.Be4.zNwex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, I missed the beginning of this. Please Q: What is 600 COP? John On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Jones Beene wrote: > From: "peter v Noorden" > > > Wouldn`t that correspond to a COP of 600? > > > Indeed. Thank you for the correction. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 15 12:44:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26093; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:43:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:43:44 -0700 Message-ID: <03a201c13e1e$a4ede680$6401a8c0 cs910664a> From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9@cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626@varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9@cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6@ix.netcom.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010914155948.02b4b9d0@pop.mindspring.com> <001901c13ded$60ffb9c0$aa69fea9@cpq> Subject: Re: Prospects for Mills versus conventional CF Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:43:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"YhlMB1.0.XM6.hzwex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you Jones, for bringing this to our attention. I've been thinking a lot about the causes of terrorism lately, and besides the hatred that spawns from radical religious intolerance and feelings of helplessness, there exists fear, greed, ignorance, poverty, and famine. I believe they are all related. If Mills' paper is true, it gives a hope to mankind that I've never seen before. We then cannot yet "afford" to criticize this paper. How do we join the HSG forum? Best Regards, Colin Quinney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 9:50 AM Subject: Re: Prospects for Mills versus conventional CF > Just this morning Mills has posted a to the HSG forum excerpts from a new > paper submitted to the Int. J. Hydrogen Energy that contains more > significant and easily tested claims. In most experiments he uses a cold > plasma, not much more intense in its parameters than that which is found in > a fluorescent tube. I haven't read the complete paper yet but here is an > excerpt: > > "Upon the addition of 5% argon catalyst to a hydrogen plasma, the Lyman > alpha emission [spectral line] was observed to increase by about an order of > magnitude which indicated an increase in the plasma temperature; whereas, > krypton control had no effect." > > Think about this. You have a cold hydrogen plasma which is a fairly > efficient light source anyway, but you can increase its photon output by an > order of magnitude by adding a little argon. THIS IS AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE, > FOLKS. If that doesn't start ringing some bells with free energy > experimenters, then perhaps they have chosen the wrong field. > > "... the energy balances of argon-hydrogen glow discharge plasmas were > measured using Calvet calorimetry... An energy balance of over -151,000 > kJ/mole H2 was measured compared to the enthalpy of combustion of hydrogen > of -241.8 kJ/mole H2." > > Doesn't this work out to a COP over 6? Rothwell may choose not to believe it > since he apparently doesn't trust either Mills' integrity or Calvet > calorimetry. That is his prerogative. Mills could be perpetrating a gigantic > hoax, but think about it for a second. He's got fifty or so PhDs working for > him - can you really find that many who would be willing to go along with a > hoax or even a self-deception. If so, please mention it to the peer review > panel over at the Int. Journal of Hydrogen Energy. > > Partial Citation: R. Mills, J. Dong, W. Good, P. Ray, J. He, B. Dhandapani, > Measurement of Energy Balances of Noble Gas-Hydrogen Discharge Plasmas > Using Calvet Calorimetry. (recently submitted to Int. J. Hydrogen Energy, > not published) > > Regards, > > Jones Beene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jones Beene" To: Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Prospects for Mills versus conventional CF > From: "peter v Noorden" > > > Wouldn`t that correspond to a COP of 600? > > > Indeed. Thank you for the correction. > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.280 / Virus Database: 147 - Release Date: 9/12/2001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 15 12:51:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26080; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <03a301c13e1e$c7a9cea0$6401a8c0 cs910664a> From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: Subject: Re: Missed 600 COP ...Mills versus conventional CF Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:44:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"O8gXa1.0.ON6.p1xex" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, If you look at the "subject line" of your email and then look back for the SAME subject line in past posts, you can follow all the "threads". With most email software, they can also be sorted automatically with a mere click of our mouse on "subject". That's usually how we all follow the various discussions if we are absent for a while. Many of us are on multiple lists, as are you, and yes- it can sometimes get confusing,, but when someone "changes" a subject line for no good reason, it annoys folks on the lists because they can't then follow that particular thread any longer. ( I hope this helps :-) On the other hand, occasionally, a critical post does NOT show up in our own IN boxes, and yours then is a legitimate question. Best Regards, Colin Quinney ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schnurer" To: "Jones Beene" Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 3:08 PM Subject: Missed 600 COP ...Mills versus conventional CF > > > Dear Folks, > > I missed the beginning of this. > > Please Q: What is 600 COP? > > > John > > On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Jones Beene wrote: > > > From: "peter v Noorden" > > > > > Wouldn`t that correspond to a COP of 600? > > > > > > Indeed. Thank you for the correction. > > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.280 / Virus Database: 147 - Release Date: 9/12/2001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 15 16:52:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA19979; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:51:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:51:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA3E9A2.2573F040 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:52:02 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: EarthTech? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CuqOb1.0.5u4.4c-ex" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: September 12, 2001 Vortex, I have not seen any posting by Scott Little since his last attempts at replicating Mills' results last March, 2001. Any reason? EarthTech's web site still exists and his name is still listed but seems inactive. ??? I fear funding problems. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 15 20:25:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA06458; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:24:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:24:37 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: An interesting site re: gravity wave detection Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:34:12 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <9c.1319accb.28d1ac63 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <9c.1319accb.28d1ac63 aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091523341200.01367 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA06437 Resent-Message-ID: <"ix_3t.0.la1.rj1fx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday 12 September 2001 23:29, ConexTom aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/12/01 6:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, reit ezworks.net > writes: > > Gravity wave detector ! > > > http://www.omirp.it/ > > > > Thank you for the reference to the web site, it was very informative and > helpfull. > > Thomas Clark > tom rhfweb.com > www.rhfweb.com > ---------------------------------------- Now one wonders how to build a transmitter and reciever for these waves....scratch that, a better reciever that may differentiate forms of communication within the wave structure. More difficult may be the transmitter. Standing Bear rockcast net-link.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 15 20:40:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA11647; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:40:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:40:04 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fwd: Re: Ball lightning made with TC Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:49:40 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091523494001.01367 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA11628 Resent-Message-ID: <"Snwp91.0.vr2.Ky1fx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yiiikes! Sveiks!?! I had no ides that I was trying to post to that other list. I was just answering a letter that was in my inbox purportedly from 'my' list, vortex-l, not that freenrg-l ferengi list(grin). My comments on the Apple][ stand, just like my old Apple][+, Apple ][C, etc, in my blockhouse building along with old hula hoops and belly busters and discarded garage sale junk that I have not yet have the heart to toss away (donate to goodWilly) Standing Bear ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: Ball lightning made with TC Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:35:52 -0700 From: freenrg-l-request eskimo.com To: rockcast net-link.net Sorry, you cannot post to this list if you are not a member. If you are SUPPOSED to be a current subscriber, then either your email address has been changed recently, or the "automatic unsuscriber" mentioned in the freenrg-L rules has knocked you off the list. If you wish to subscribe, (or re-subscribe) send a blank message to freenrg-L-request eskimo.com, with the word "subscribe" in the subject line of the message header. If you have problems, contact the list owner at billb eskimo.com ------------------- returned message follows ------------------- On Saturday 15 September 2001 08:14, William Beaty wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:44:08 -0700 > From: form entry > ------------------------------------------------------ > Still using an Apple ][+, the Woz' wonder? That is what I call dedication. As an original Apple fan that left, I truly sympathize. The Apple ][ series was plagued by keyboard controller failures of a random nature. The controllers were OK and did not have to be replaced, as you would only get another one that would work the same way. I think that they were socketed IC's located under the keyboard on the motherboard. It was a long wide IC that kinda looked like a PROM. Never did have an Apple that would stay on more than 5 hours before the keyboard locked up tighter than a drum. Usually only resulted in a lost game session, as I never did trust it with anything important. For that matter, I do not trust Windows with anything important either if I feel that handing it to Microsoft or its lackeys and cronies would compromise its value. Especially any version after Win98 version 2. Millenium, I understand, calls Redmond every time it is started if it has the internet anywhere available to it. XP will be worse by far. The end of the series is ultimately to charge us by the minute of use for using our own computers. Who knows, maybe there will be premiums and surcharges if we have really goood computers. Standing Bear rockcast net-link.net look for a program called ss..... something as the culprit that calls Microsoft on the web when Millenium starts. An old friend in network programming says that he found it and told me about it. If you have a firewall, maybe you can catch it red handed and tell us about it with 'the rest of the story' as Paul Harvey, God rest his soul, would say. ------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 05:35:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA25537; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:35:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:35:12 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <148.1a605c5.28d5f68f aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:35:27 EDT Subject: Re: Ball lightning made with TC To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 205 Resent-Message-ID: <"dsgIj3.0.xE6.0o9fx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank read this I agree with it. Read Scientific American. Get com 50 nm particles and put them in your arc., Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 05:55:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA29208; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:55:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 05:55:02 -0700 Sender: hoyt eskimo.com Message-ID: <3BA4A830.1E41799D home.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 06:25:04 -0700 From: "Hoyt Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ball lightning made with TC References: <148.1a605c5.28d5f68f aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Vb0rc1.0.I87.c4Afx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > > Frank read this I agree with it. > > Read Scientific American. Get com 50 nm particles and put them in your arc., > > Frank Z Interesting. In Larson's Reciprocal System, unit length is 45.6 nm (half the Rydberg wavelength) and properties radically change at that point, e.g. gravity becomes repulsive, but the "expansion" of the universe is now inward (accounting for solids and cohesion). Also, solar system dust particles tend toward this size, as I recall. See http://www.rsystem.org/ce/dimenmot.htm http://www.rsystem.org/rs/cwkvk/index.htm Best Regards, Hoyt Stearns Phoenix From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 06:44:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA06343; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 06:43:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 06:43:33 -0700 Message-Id: <200109161343.JAA09237 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Afghanistan Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:34:24 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"wM3w43.0.zY1.4oAfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Very useful information on Afgahnistan. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/14/afghanistan/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 07:24:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA14892; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:24:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:24:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA4B61F.F5392C09 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:24:31 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex , freenrg Subject: No desire to save life Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GFXwl1.0.ce3.3OBfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I am deeply saddened and shaken that there is virtually no effort to rescue people trapped under rubble. Only cleanup is going on. This scene is totally different that can be seen on rescues on earthquakes that occurring in Turkey and other parts of the w orld. First There should be ways to access some people trapped on basement levels, from underground network, service tunnels, sewers, communication channels, I suggested this 2 days ago on Vortex posting. But I am seeing that nobody interesting on rescue, but cleanup and ceremonies. Is collecting "evidences" from rubble is more important than save life? It can be seen hopeless family members obeys silently this unspelled decision. May people in America may have great confidence to governors, to decision makers, and can suppress their own common senses and vital wishes to keep the order. Such a obedience may can hardly seen on other countries in the world. this can be appreciated generally and make great na tions, but should be well balanced with human virtues. Yes, US may be a pioneering country to set standards on security and on health of people and very sensitive to follow these standard and rules, but failing now to save lives. Why? Why these lives are sacrificed? Is saving life NOT the main argument of decision makers ? Could be the answer is such a effort would delay the cleanup and restoration of normal life and the business, so saving few life can be omitted? Maybe such a behavior is a result of highly organized system where the basic ideology or the rules keeping the organization up is more important than life of individuals and these life could be insignificant. I dont believe such a machine like behavior se en on ants, on bees, not suitable for humans. And, if there are some arguments in societies which are more important than save life, human life, freedom is severely damaged, there would be freedom for science, freedom for nothing, because foundation of the freedom is the life. I dont think there are extensive suppression of science, free energy, by government agencies, they are effectively suppressed by researchers themselves and by the society. I apologize for posting this on Vortex, and maybe provocative but think it is on topic. I hope I am wrong. hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 07:59:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA23920; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:59:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:59:12 -0700 Message-ID: <003701c13ed9$134ca520$5e50ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3BA4B61F.F5392C09 verisoft.com.tr> Subject: Re: No desire to save life Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:57:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"FJYtc.0.br5.0vBfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Hi All, > > I am deeply saddened and shaken that there is virtually no effort to rescue people trapped under rubble. Only cleanup is going on. This scene is totally different that can be seen on rescues on earthquakes that occurring in Turkey and other parts of the world. Hamdi, I don't know what you are looking at. You are totally off base on this. The rubble is six stories deep and there may be people within that rubble, trapped in cavities. You have to remove the rubble to get to the people. Some 300 firemen went into the towers to resuce people before they collapsed, trapping and killing all but a few of them. The may be some people in underground passageways -- the basement is six stories deep. It's not clear that ese were acessible. Subways run under the buildings and it is only in the last day or so that thse were cleared enough to run trains. Of couse the scene is different than in Turkey. you didn't have two of the world's tallest buildings collapse on themselves. Firemen and volunteers from all over the country went to NYC to help. The damage is in a small area with limited access through streets, not distributed over an area as in an earthquake. Mike Carrell > > First There should be ways to access some people trapped on basement levels, from underground network, service tunnels, sewers, communication channels, I suggested this 2 days ago on Vortex posting. > > But I am seeing that nobody interesting on rescue, but cleanup and ceremonies. Is collecting "evidences" from rubble is more important than save life? They are dead. Many bodies are torn arpart, a head here, a leg there. People want certainty about the death of a loved one, and DNA **evidence** the the one sure way to do it. Ceremonies are important for the nation. The search for survivors went on except for the brief visit by Bush. It can be seen hopeless family members obeys silently this unspelled decision. May people in America may have great confidence to governors, to decision makers, and can suppress their own common senses and vital wishes to keep the order. Such a obedience may can hardly seen on other countries in the world. this can be appreciated generally and make great nations, but should be well balanced with human virtues. > > Yes, US may be a pioneering country to set standards on security and on health of people and very sensitive to follow these standard and rules, but failing now to save lives. Why? You don't understand what you are looking at. I don't know what your TV is showing you. Every effort is being made, but only dead bodies have been found for several days. Rescue dogs came from as far as Hawaii to help search for living people. > > Why these lives are sacrificed? Is saving life NOT the main argument of decision makers ? Could be the answer is such a effort would delay the cleanup and restoration of normal life and the business, so saving few life can be omitted? This is ridiculous. > > Maybe such a behavior is a result of highly organized system where the basic ideology or the rules keeping the organization up is more important than life of individuals and these life could be insignificant. I dont believe such a machine like behavior seen on ants, on bees, not suitable for humans. > > And, if there are some arguments in societies which are more important than save life, human life, freedom is severely damaged, there would be freedom for science, freedom for nothing, because foundation of the freedom is the life. > > I dont think there are extensive suppression of science, free energy, by government agencies, they are effectively suppressed by researchers themselves and by the society. > > I apologize for posting this on Vortex, and maybe provocative but think it is on topic. > > I hope I am wrong. YOU ARE WRONG, VERY DECISEVLY. MIKE CARRELL And apologies to shouting in capital letters. Bad manners. But Hamdi, usually a voice of sense and reason, has got it seriously wrong in this case. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 08:05:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25734; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:05:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:05:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA4B20B.8F68B9E9 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:07:11 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: No desire to save life References: <3BA4B61F.F5392C09 verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8qEHn1.0.0I6.a-Bfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi, you are mistaken. Every effort is being made to find survivors. However, the only people who have any hope are those trapped at the fringes of the rubble. People who where in or near the building are under many thousands of tons of rubble which can not be removed fast enough to find anyone alive even if they were in a pocket. As for the tunnels, many were collapsed by the force of the falling building and many are filled with water. Nevertheless, every effort is being used to locate possible l iving people who are close enough to the surface for there to be any hope of reaching them. As for reaching the basement level, this will take months. You have to realize that when two large buildings fall in such a small area, the pile of rubble is immense, reaching over five stories. In addition, it co nsists of imbedded steel beams that must be cut to be removed. Just hauling away and finding places to put all of the rubble are also a real problems. Unfortunately, time has now run out for any trapped person because they have been without water for 5 days which leads to certain death regardless of their other conditions. The next great emotional trauma for the US will come in about a month when they reach the level where the remains of people who were in the building are located. This will drive our government even deeper into an irrational and self-de feating effort to find who did this. I agree strongly these people need to be found, however I do not trust our government to do this in a competent and effective way. May God have mercy on us all! But I have to ask, why would you assume that we in the US would not be just as interested in rescuing the survivors as anyone else in the world? As you no doubt observed on TV, thousands of people are working around the clock to locate people and remove material trapping them. I can not understand what more you could expect, given the very difficult and unusual nature of the site. Regards, Ed Storms hamdi ucar wrote: > Hi All, > > I am deeply saddened and shaken that there is virtually no effort to rescue people trapped under rubble. Only cleanup is going on. This scene is totally different that can be seen on rescues on earthquakes that occurring in Turkey and other parts of the world. > > First There should be ways to access some people trapped on basement levels, from underground network, service tunnels, sewers, communication channels, I suggested this 2 days ago on Vortex posting. > > But I am seeing that nobody interesting on rescue, but cleanup and ceremonies. Is collecting "evidences" from rubble is more important than save life? It can be seen hopeless family members obeys silently this unspelled decision. May people in America m ay have great confidence to governors, to decision makers, and can suppress their own common senses and vital wishes to keep the order. Such a obedience may can hardly seen on other countries in the world. this can be appreciated generally and make great nations, but should be well balanced with human virtues. > > Yes, US may be a pioneering country to set standards on security and on health of people and very sensitive to follow these standard and rules, but failing now to save lives. Why? > > Why these lives are sacrificed? Is saving life NOT the main argument of decision makers ? Could be the answer is such a effort would delay the cleanup and restoration of normal life and the business, so saving few life can be omitted? > > Maybe such a behavior is a result of highly organized system where the basic ideology or the rules keeping the organization up is more important than life of individuals and these life could be insignificant. I dont believe such a machine like behavior seen on ants, on bees, not suitable for humans. > > And, if there are some arguments in societies which are more important than save life, human life, freedom is severely damaged, there would be freedom for science, freedom for nothing, because foundation of the freedom is the life. > > I dont think there are extensive suppression of science, free energy, by government agencies, they are effectively suppressed by researchers themselves and by the society. > > I apologize for posting this on Vortex, and maybe provocative but think it is on topic. > > I hope I am wrong. > > hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 08:18:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA28490; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:17:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:17:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA4BEAE.DC1760F austininstruments.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:01:02 -0500 From: John Fields Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg Subject: Re: No desire to save life X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3BA4B61F.F5392C09 verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tbI6w2.0.3z6.7ACfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: hamdi ucar wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am deeply saddened and shaken that there is virtually no effort to rescue people trapped under rubble. Only cleanup is going on. This scene is totally different that can be seen on rescues on earthquakes that occurring in Turkey and other parts of the world. --- I don't know where you're getting your information from, but TV here showed early on that the rescue effort was what was _slowing down_ the cleanup effort in that rubble was largely being removed by hand in order not to disturb the pile and endanger the lives of any who might be trapped within it. Interestingly, I have the TV on right now and the word is that the rescue effort is still in full swing. This 'event' was nothing like an earthquake, except for the peripheral buildings which have collapsed or have been damaged by the tremors caused by the collapse of the twin towers. Those buildings were evacuated before they collapsed, with the result that there was no loss of human life there. The collapse of the towers was more like a controlled implosion in that they collapsed vertically, one floor at a time being collapsed by the stack of floors above it. --- > First There should be ways to access some people trapped on basement levels, from underground network, service tunnels, sewers, communication channels, I suggested this 2 days ago on Vortex posting. > > But I am seeing that nobody interesting on rescue, but cleanup and ceremonies. Is collecting "evidences" from rubble is more important than save life? It can be seen hopeless family members obeys silently this unspelled decision. May people in America m ay have great confidence to governors, to decision makers, and can suppress their own common senses and vital wishes to keep the order. Such a obedience may can hardly seen on other countries in the world. this can be appreciated generally and mak > > Yes, US may be a pioneering country to set standards on security and on health of people and very sensitive to follow these standard and rules, but failing now to save lives. Why? > > Why these lives are sacrificed? Is saving life NOT the main argument of decision makers ? Could be the answer is such a effort would delay the cleanup and restoration of normal life and the business, so saving few life can be omitted? > > Maybe such a behavior is a result of highly organized system where the basic ideology or the rules keeping the organization up is more important than life of individuals and these life could be insignificant. I dont believe such a machine like behavior seen on ants, on bees, not suitable for humans. > > And, if there are some arguments in societies which are more important than save life, human life, freedom is severely damaged, there would be freedom for science, freedom for nothing, because foundation of the freedom is the life. > > I dont think there are extensive suppression of science, free energy, by government agencies, they are effectively suppressed by researchers themselves and by the society. > > I apologize for posting this on Vortex, and maybe provocative but think it is on topic. > > I hope I am wrong. --- I think it is neither on-topic, acccurate, or fair, and seems to be highly opinionated. --- John Fields From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 09:19:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA10642; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 09:19:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 09:19:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA4D115.EA4CB42E verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:19:33 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: No desire to save life References: <3BA4B61F.F5392C09 verisoft.com.tr> <3BA4B20B.8F68B9E9@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-U-3c1.0.Cc2.w3Dfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Ed, Mike and John, Thank you very much to correct me, and sorry upset you. I am watching TV from CNN channel, which is only available as US channels and also watching BBC World. May be I fall on wrong decision because I expected high technologies, large mining machine are d igging into the rubble with unlimited resources. CNN never displayed a specific action trying to penetrate the rubble, maybe because this was impossible. In contrast on earthquake rescues, teams tries the impossible, with incredible efforts. And most of time journalists are interested on these heroic efforts and tries to show them in detail. That is I saw missing and based my observation. > But I have to ask, why would you assume that we in the US would not be just as interested in rescuing the survivors as anyone else in the world? As you no doubt observed on TV, thousands of people are working around the clock to locate people and remov e material trapping them. I can not understand what more you could expect, given the very difficult and unusual nature of the site. > Maybe CNN reflect so. It give updates on the the amount of the rubble removed from the site. This make no sense for a rescue operation. I seen rescue efforts is being done Turkey, teams are coming from every countries and specialized on these rescue operations teams are try to find people and recover using with various methods, unordered, unsystematically innovatively trying to find speci al solutions. This can not be made systematically, in ordered manner. On WTC rescue, a ordered operations I saw, and this severely reduce the success to find alive people. This give impression that is only cleanup operation is going on. May I also underestimate the hugh size of the wreckage, so methods used on typical earth quake sites can not be used on WTC. Do you know is there any international team working on there? Edmund Storms wrote: > > Hamdi, you are mistaken. Every effort is being made to find survivors. However, the only people who have any hope are those trapped at the fringes of the rubble. People who where in or near the building are under many thousands of tons of rubble whic h can not be removed fast enough to find anyone alive even if they were in a pocket. As for the tunnels, many were collapsed by the force of the falling building and many are filled with water. Nevertheless, every effort is being used to locate possible living people who are close enough to the surface for > there to be any hope of reaching them. As for reaching the basement level, this will take months. You have to realize that when two large buildings fall in such a small area, the pile of rubble is immense, reaching over five stories. In addition, it consists of imbedded steel beams that must be cut to be removed. Just hauling away and finding places to put all of the rubble are also a real problems. Unfortunately, time has now run out for any trapped person because they have been without water for 5 days which leads to certain death regardless of their > other conditions. The next great emotional trauma for the US will come in about a month when they reach the level where the remains of people who were in the building are located. This will drive our government even deeper into an irrational and self- defeating effort to find who did this. I agree strongly these people need to be found, however I do not trust our government to do this in a competent and effective way. May God have mercy on us all! > > Regards, Ed Storms > > hamdi ucar wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > I am deeply saddened and shaken that there is virtually no effort to rescue people trapped under rubble. Only cleanup is going on. This scene is totally different that can be seen on rescues on earthquakes that occurring in Turkey and other parts of t he world. > > > > First There should be ways to access some people trapped on basement levels, from underground network, service tunnels, sewers, communication channels, I suggested this 2 days ago on Vortex posting. > > > > But I am seeing that nobody interesting on rescue, but cleanup and ceremonies. Is collecting "evidences" from rubble is more important than save life? It can be seen hopeless family members obeys silently this unspelled decision. May people in America may have great confidence to governors, to decision makers, and can suppress their own common senses and vital wishes to keep the order. Such a obedience may can hardly seen on other countries in the world. this can be appreciated generally and make grea t nations, but should be well balanced with human virtues. > > > > Yes, US may be a pioneering country to set standards on security and on health of people and very sensitive to follow these standard and rules, but failing now to save lives. Why? > > > > Why these lives are sacrificed? Is saving life NOT the main argument of decision makers ? Could be the answer is such a effort would delay the cleanup and restoration of normal life and the business, so saving few life can be omitted? > > > > Maybe such a behavior is a result of highly organized system where the basic ideology or the rules keeping the organization up is more important than life of individuals and these life could be insignificant. I dont believe such a machine like behavio r seen on ants, on bees, not suitable for humans. > > > > And, if there are some arguments in societies which are more important than save life, human life, freedom is severely damaged, there would be freedom for science, freedom for nothing, because foundation of the freedom is the life. > > > > I dont think there are extensive suppression of science, free energy, by government agencies, they are effectively suppressed by researchers themselves and by the society. > > > > I apologize for posting this on Vortex, and maybe provocative but think it is on topic. > > > > I hope I am wrong. > > > > hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 10:01:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA25409; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:00:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:00:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA4DAE2.E8E367F mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:01:22 -0400 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: No desire to save life References: <3BA4B61F.F5392C09 verisoft.com.tr> <3BA4B20B.8F68B9E9@ix.netcom.com> <3BA4D115.EA4CB42E@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"G5erZ2.0.rC6.zgDfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It is my understanding that they were turning people away...they had so many people working that they were getting in each others way.... It is also a very specialized cleanup... do to large pieces...they are using mainly iron workers...girders have to be cut away to give access.... The big pieces are in the top layers... not having so many floors falling on them.... steve hamdi ucar wrote: > > Dear Ed, Mike and John, > > Thank you very much to correct me, and sorry upset you. I am watching TV from CNN channel, which is only available as US channels and also watching BBC World. May be I fall on wrong decision because I expected high technologies, large mining machine are digging into the rubble with unlimited resources. CNN never displayed a specific action trying to penetrate the rubble, maybe because this was impossible. In contrast on earthquake rescues, teams tries the impossible, with incredible efforts. And most o f time journalists are interested on these heroic efforts and tries to show them in detail. That is I saw missing and based my observation. > > > But I have to ask, why would you assume that we in the US would not be just as interested in rescuing the survivors as anyone else in the world? As you no doubt observed on TV, thousands of people are working around the clock to locate people and rem ove material trapping them. I can not understand what more you could expect, given the very difficult and unusual nature of the site. > > > > Maybe CNN reflect so. It give updates on the the amount of the rubble removed from the site. This make no sense for a rescue operation. > > I seen rescue efforts is being done Turkey, teams are coming from every countries and specialized on these rescue operations teams are try to find people and recover using with various methods, unordered, unsystematically innovatively trying to find spe cial solutions. This can not be made systematically, in ordered manner. > > On WTC rescue, a ordered operations I saw, and this severely reduce the success to find alive people. This give impression that is only cleanup operation is going on. May I also underestimate the hugh size of the wreckage, so methods used on typical ear thquake sites can not be used on WTC. > > Do you know is there any international team working on there? > > Edmund Storms wrote: > > > > Hamdi, you are mistaken. Every effort is being made to find survivors. However, the only people who have any hope are those trapped at the fringes of the rubble. People who where in or near the building are under many thousands of tons of rubble wh ich can not be removed fast enough to find anyone alive even if they were in a pocket. As for the tunnels, many were collapsed by the force of the falling building and many are filled with water. Nevertheless, every effort is being used to locate possib le living people who are close enough to the surface for > > there to be any hope of reaching them. As for reaching the basement level, this will take months. You have to realize that when two large buildings fall in such a small area, the pile of rubble is immense, reaching over five stories. In addition, i t consists of imbedded steel beams that must be cut to be removed. Just hauling away and finding places to put all of the rubble are also a real problems. Unfortunately, time has now run out for any trapped person because they have been without water fo r 5 days which leads to certain death regardless of their > > other conditions. The next great emotional trauma for the US will come in about a month when they reach the level where the remains of people who were in the building are located. This will drive our government even deeper into an irrational and sel f-defeating effort to find who did this. I agree strongly these people need to be found, however I do not trust our government to do this in a competent and effective way. May God have mercy on us all! > > > > Regards, Ed Storms > > > > hamdi ucar wrote: > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > I am deeply saddened and shaken that there is virtually no effort to rescue people trapped under rubble. Only cleanup is going on. This scene is totally different that can be seen on rescues on earthquakes that occurring in Turkey and other parts of the world. > > > > > > First There should be ways to access some people trapped on basement levels, from underground network, service tunnels, sewers, communication channels, I suggested this 2 days ago on Vortex posting. > > > > > > But I am seeing that nobody interesting on rescue, but cleanup and ceremonies. Is collecting "evidences" from rubble is more important than save life? It can be seen hopeless family members obeys silently this unspelled decision. May people in Ameri ca may have great confidence to governors, to decision makers, and can suppress their own common senses and vital wishes to keep the order. Such a obedience may can hardly seen on other countries in the world. this can be appreciated generally and make gr eat nations, but should be well balanced with human virtues. > > > > > > Yes, US may be a pioneering country to set standards on security and on health of people and very sensitive to follow these standard and rules, but failing now to save lives. Why? > > > > > > Why these lives are sacrificed? Is saving life NOT the main argument of decision makers ? Could be the answer is such a effort would delay the cleanup and restoration of normal life and the business, so saving few life can be omitted? > > > > > > Maybe such a behavior is a result of highly organized system where the basic ideology or the rules keeping the organization up is more important than life of individuals and these life could be insignificant. I dont believe such a machine like behav ior seen on ants, on bees, not suitable for humans. > > > > > > And, if there are some arguments in societies which are more important than save life, human life, freedom is severely damaged, there would be freedom for science, freedom for nothing, because foundation of the freedom is the life. > > > > > > I dont think there are extensive suppression of science, free energy, by government agencies, they are effectively suppressed by researchers themselves and by the society. > > > > > > I apologize for posting this on Vortex, and maybe provocative but think it is on topic. > > > > > > I hope I am wrong. > > > > > > hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 10:42:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA05481; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:41:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:41:45 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Report from WTC ground zero. Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:49:50 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"cUIM21.0.YL1.PHEfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All. I can see from the recent postings on Vortex that there is some confusion regarding the state of affairs at the WTC. I've avoided posting on this subject but it seems that the media may be doing a poor job of explaining what's happening on the ground. Yesterday, I filled my pocket with corporate ID and pushed through the checkpoints to see the site. The word disaster seems inadequate to describe the horror of the scene. Hundreds of firefighters and rescue workers are combing through the unstable pile of wreakage, which will in fact take months to clear. They are being supported by NY'ers who are volunteering in droves to provide food, shelter and clothing to these workers. This activity has been constant since the tragedy occurred, 24 hours a day. People have lined the roads surrounding the crash site to cheer as exhausted rescue workers leave the scene. It hardly seems adequate thanks to these folks. Yet, after all this, not a single live body has been recovered. Rather, 1000's of dead bodies and parts have been pulled from the rubble. Boatloads of body bags have been shipped to Ellis Island to a makeshift morgue, but indentification has proved difficult due to the effects of two 110 story buildings collapsing on them. The process continues as people here are having great difficulty accepting the reality that their loved ones are dead under all that rubble. As rubble is slowly removed, new fires break out. The smoke is terrible, a thick acrid smog which blankets the area even now. I began to feel ill after only about 1/2 hour of breathing it, I shudder to think how those rescue workers feel breathing it while doing hard labor. Unlike an earthquake, there was substantial time for people to escape from the lower floors and basements before the buildings collapsed. Those on the upper floors had a long fall when the collapse occurred, so their chances of survival are slim to none. All this activity surrounding the attempt to rescue trapped victims has severely limited the clean up operations, which is putting that much more stress on the city as a whole. Rescue workers are afraid that using the kind of equipment necessary to remove the rubble (bulldozers and the like) will simply crush whomever they may possibly find under the wreakage. So they pick through the rubble and hope in vain. I saw an Asian woman standing next to a flattened Con-Ed truck, weeping. A river of tears, an ocean of tears. Not enough however to bring the dead back to life, Hamdi. Much as we all wish it would. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 11:40:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24545; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:40:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:40:06 -0700 Message-ID: <20010916184024.45150.qmail web20610.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:40:24 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris Subject: Tesla Research Group Update/Ball discharge Jpeg To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: teslafy yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"Ng5pt.0.R_5.58Ffx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Concerning the former postings of impedance differences of air core 60 henry coils at 480 hz, the following reply to another list shows how these differences were explained. It is possible for the same voltage to produce two different current flows, when connected across the same series LC component. The is made possible by the use of resonant voltage sources, which can increase the bandwidth of a resonant circuit. The following explains this. : Re: [newelectrogravity] Speculations on Impedance Variations 481 hz To: newelectrogravity yahoogroups.com --- harvey norris wrote: > Missed a bit of this chopped off piece... > > After making this posting, I immediately replaced > the > alternator resonant phases on 2 of the three phases, > and left the 3rd phase attached to a 62.5 voltage > ratio rise from a 10 kva pole pig. The correct > resonant transformer approach is interphasal, in > that > two phases must be used, and the coil load placed > between the phases. This may sound a little vague, > but > what is done is to take ~ equal series resonances, > or > the designated quantities of L and C in series that > resonate to the alternators frequency,(I use .15 > henry > and .75 uf for this freq) The sequential order of > the > LC quantities around the circle is kept the same, in > what I have called "ordered delta series resonances" > At the middle or midpoint of each LC series > resonance > is a resonant voltage rise. The load being connected > between these voltage rises, is then properly called > an interphasal load,and will experience 1.7 the > voltage rise that only a single phase delivers. > (because the load is between two phases, and not > simply one as occurs on the phase loaded down by the > pole pig transformer.) > > The impedance testing of the same coil formerly > registering 280,000 ohms, registered the same > quantity > when tested across the resonant voltage source made > in > this manner. Therefore my former statement regarding > equal voltages delivering different currents may > APPEAR to be in error. After numerous tests this statement can be qualified as conditional. It is conditional on the fact that a off resonant circuit will have a wider bandwidth of resonant responce, when loaded interphasingly by resonance compared to that attained by a transformer voltage rise to that LC series combination. If the correct LC combination used to resonate is used to begin with both voltage inputs will then deliver identical results. The resonant voltage source also has the additional consideration that the conduction on that interphased LC component in resonance, itself can not exceed the amount of current limiting that the inductors of the DSR will allow by their impedance. What introduced that kind of thinking was the fact that resonant LC quantities in series, may resonate with a voltage input derived from resonant voltage rises on two phases, as a interphasal load, but it does not resonate when inputed with a single phase transformer voltage rise.(only on a mistuned circuit) This all came about by using inductive reactance formula to determine its corresponding needed capacitive reactance for resonance. The ACTUAL acting inductive reactance is 60 % higher than that given by formula for a 60 henry coil 480 hz resonance. This may be due to interwinding capacitance of the 9 miles of 23 gauge wire, or possibly also skin effects. In any case using formula derived C values for resonance results in a incorrectly tuned LC quantity. > > However, having tuned this circuit before simply by > hastily providing the correct capacities made by > mathematematical calculations, I am very reticent to > conclude that my above assumption is false. > Something > definitely is not right, because the circuit would > have never initially showed the voltage rises it > did, > if the impedances were that far off. As I have indicated, it does resonate from that resonant voltage source because the bandwidth of resonance has become significantly widened, where the additional outside L and C quantities of the delta series resonances enter the equation. HDN {NOTE/ THIS FANTASTIC PROGNOSIS ONLY INCREASES THE POSSIBILILITY OF A QUICK FUTURE TESTING OF THE FLUX CAP IDEA USING WATER. THAT VESSEL WAS NOT THE PROPER CAPACITY FOR RESONANCE, BUT IF THE DSR INPUT VOLTAGES ARE THE SOURCE FOR THE COILS VOLTAGE RISES, IT WILL BE MORE ACCOMMODATING TO AN OFF RESONANT MATCHED C QUANTITY) {FURTHER NOTE/ THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING A VARIABLE SPEED MOTOR FOR THESE TESTS WOULD BE INCALCULABLE. IN THE CURRENT SITUATION THE FINISHED AXIAL C COMPONENT MAY NOT MATCH THE DESIRED CAPACITY FOR RESONANCE. THIS CURRENTLY IS A .6 NF PART WHERE A 1.16 NF PART IS NEEDED. IF INSTEAD ONE HAD A VARIABLE FREQUENCY INPUT ONE WOULD MERELY NEED TO TUNE IN THE THE RESONANT FREQUENCY OF THE {magnetic/electric}FLUX CAPACITORS} In other matters with the recent talk of ball discharges I have placed one at my message board below and summarized the overunity prospect now apparently made in preparation for real world testing. I have calculated the energy transfer rate between magnetic and electric fields to be 42/1 to that of the true power input reflected by ohmic losses on the coils.(IN REAL WORLD ALTERNATOR TESTS) It is true in every case that simply schematically attaching a load in parallel to the C quantity will itself lower that energy transfer rate, and the voltage that appears across that load will be correspondingly reduced from what is available at resonance. Instead an entirely different idea can be tried where the parts that hold this energy expression in space, can themselves occupy the same space at right angles. To do this we also need at least two phases, so that its electric field in resonance can exist more or less concurrent to adjacent phases magnetic field. Those actions might be the design of a high frequency strontium ferrite motor, or a high efficiency electrolysis vessel, depending on which dielectric material is exploitable at what frequency, and the sizing considerations that develope. In other remarkable work contained at message board are tests made using a 60 degree phased input to a transformer for a tesla coil application using SrFe. HDN ===== Binary Resonant System http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 14:54:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21789; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:53:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:53:43 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ball lightning made with TC Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:53:32 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <148.1a605c5.28d5f68f aol.com> <3BA4A830.1E41799D@home.com> In-Reply-To: <3BA4A830.1E41799D home.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA21766 Resent-Message-ID: <"eVbhW3.0.NK5.dzHfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Hoyt Stearns Jr.'s message of Sun, 16 Sep 2001 06:25:04 -0700: >FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: >> >> Frank read this I agree with it. >> >> Read Scientific American. Get com 50 nm particles and put them in your arc., >> >> Frank Z > >Interesting. In Larson's Reciprocal System, unit >length is 45.6 nm (half the >Rydberg wavelength) and This distance as a photon wavelength corresponds to a photon energy of 27.2 eV (which everyone should recognise). >properties radically change at that point, e.g. gravity >becomes repulsive, >but the "expansion" of the universe is now inward >(accounting for solids and [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 17:00:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27752; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:59:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:59:24 -0700 Message-Id: <200109162359.TAA29979 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Clarke/Life on Mars/Popular Science Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 18:50:14 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"i2kAE.0.Sn6.SpJfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: All, Amid the terrorist crisis in the world, a ray of hope about something truly remarkable: The October 2001 Popular Science, just out, has a brief (half-page) interview with Sir Arthur C. Clarke, with the heading, "The Banyan Trees of Mars." (page 42) Clarke describes large areas of vegetation seen in a Mars Global Surveyor image. Clarke: "The image is so striking that there is no need to say anything about it -its obviously vegetation to any unbiased eye." He describes his belief in the reality of large Martian life forms as in the "high nineties!" (percentage). Infinite Energy #39 (at the printer shortly), ahead of Popular Science in frontier content as usual, has a compilation of recent technical reports and analyses of the emerging picture of evidence for Martian life. Sincerely, Eugene Mallove www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 17:57:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA11256; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:56:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:56:58 -0700 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:04:37 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: Vortex , hamdi ucar Subject: save life In-Reply-To: <3BA4B61F.F5392C09 verisoft.com.tr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"v3kfG2.0.ol2.QfKfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Hamdi, Fortunately, you are wrong.... the rubble of the building is being taken off piece by piece. Often an area is cleared by people handing 5 gallon plastic buckets, hand to hand... All you see is news pictures that someone somewhere thinks will sell news. A TINY part: The pile of twisted steel, glass, concrete and all of the other Stuff which is inside a building and makes up a building is mixed together and, internally it is On Fire!! The workers who a near or on the active areas wear masked and carry thier own air. When water is mixed with the dust of 3 inches thick in places everything becomes wet, slippery and much heavier... and then this 'goop' begins to turn hard like contrete. When they take the mask Off to get a breather or 'clean air" ...it isn't clean, one worker a medical doctor moving this junk said, and I paraphrase: ".........It is dirty and sharp, it cuts your boots, it cuts your clothes, when you take off your mask your eyes burn you choke and cough and you can't breathe the air, your throat is sore, and now the smell of dead bodies is begining to become apparent it is terrible, terrible." We have doctors moving this junk so they can be nearby when they find someone. Cranes and trucks and people with oxy-acetylene cutting torches are working as fast as they can. They remember the Mexican child who was rescued from Earthquake rubble ! 3 weeks ! after. They have experts in deep tunnel work and rescue. These people rappell into the mass of wreckage nd one said "It is on fire down there, a soon as you open up a place ot get to it, then you let in additional oxygen from the air, and the burning is worse. I go down, do what I can, come up, get more air, and go back down again." On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, hamdi ucar wrote: > Hi All, > > I am deeply saddened and shaken that there is virtually no effort to rescue people trapped under rubble. Only cleanup is going on. They are doing everthing and have every rescue expert they can get. This scene is totally different that can be seen on rescues on earthquakes that occurring in Turkey and other parts of the world. > > First There should be ways to access some people trapped on basement levels, from underground network, service tunnels, sewers, communication channels, I suggested this 2 days ago on Vortex posting. > > But I am seeing that nobody interesting on rescue, but cleanup and ceremonies. Is collecting "evidences" from rubble is more important than save life? It can be seen hopeless family members obeys silently this unspelled decision. May people in America may have great confidence to governors, to decision makers, and can suppress their own common senses and vital wishes to keep the order. Such a obedience may can hardly seen on other countries in the world. this can be appreciated generally and make great nations, but should be well balanced with human virtues. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 18:08:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13906; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 18:08:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 18:08:07 -0700 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:15:44 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex , Schnurer Subject: The work to save survivors. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hmr_b.0.9P3.tpKfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., I am glad Hamdi let us know what some of the foreign media is presenting. I am also glad this has brought posts to the fore from people who are part of Vo who can tell us what is going on first hand. I am in Ohio and near one of the largest and most sensitive military bases. It went form "same as always" to dead lockdown in the course of a few hours and the entire area was combed wall to wall, floor to ceiling in that time. All the flags for sale are gone. There are donation areas everywhere for food and money. The interpersonal rivalries between this and that group...Are Gone everyone is one one side. J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 19:11:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA06545; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:10:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:10:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA55B90.BC669E27 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 05:10:24 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Report from WTC ground zero. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FAhyL2.0.Bc1.2kLfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Keith, John and All, I am sorry that I disturbed you with my wrong conclusion, but on can not think otherwise if watched CNN. Maybe they are purposely avoiding some sensitive scenes. May they think showing cleanup only may improve the people moral. hamdi ucar Keith Nagel wrote: > > Hi All. > > I can see from the recent postings on Vortex that there > is some confusion regarding the state of affairs at the > WTC. I've avoided posting on this subject but it seems > that the media may be doing a poor job of explaining > what's happening on the ground. > > Yesterday, I filled my pocket with corporate ID and > pushed through the checkpoints to see the site. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 19:20:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA10609; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:19:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:19:07 -0700 Message-ID: <20010917021927.41380.qmail web20308.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:19:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Lydia Hunt Subject: Re: Our fate To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"wiZyM3.0.eb2.RsLfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "The precious advantage which the spectacle has acquired through the _outlawing of history_, from having driven the recent past into hiding, and from having made everyone forget the spirit of history within society, is above all the ability to cover its own tracks - to conceal the very progress of its recent world conquest. Its power already seems familiar, as if it had always been there." Dear Ed – and to any others whose eyes are peeled open at this - the most bizarre of times- Your courageous and insightful message was brought to our attention, and we felt such a strong resonance with your words that it led us to add some further thoughts to yours on this - the gravest of matters, the assuming of a fate that repels any intelligence. The USA and NATO have not so much declared war on Arab countries as on Muslim countries and social movements that have cultivated fundamentalist Islam as their mission - to conquer the world and convert it to 'the righteous path of God'. The ridiculous pretense has never stopped any fanatic or militant, since they seek vengeance from the world but disguise it in wars of liberation, the fight against injustice and so on, speaking in the name of all else save their crude desire for vengeance and retaliation. Muslim fanatics or Islamist militants are no novelty in this regard. If anyone had any illusions about the fascist nature of the moralistic and religious collective 'dream' of the subjected masses in these Muslim countries, all that is needed as remedy is to peruse the folkloric announcement of these intentions, on sites such as that of the Pakistani Muttahida Jihad Council - http://www.freeyellow.com/members5/unitedstatesofislam/index.html where the hard lines of this nightmare of hatred and misery are made rather apparent: check the box where an entirely fundamentalist Muslim world is forecast to come to pass after 100 years. One wonders whether the gigantic infantilization of the world made possible by spectacular dissemination of all the atavisms of religion, family, race, god and country did not engender, with its instant communications, its mobile phones, its satellite TV and worldwide web, equally disneyfied and bizarre, distorted embodiments, often proclaimed as 'progressive', of such atavisms in the marginal zones of civilization, where barbarism became the rule of adaptation and coexistence. That any Muslim would believe such a ridiculous vision as the conquest of the world by jihad as the path to God, gives us the proportion of the pathology. And we have to wonder how this came about, how we managed to produce a whole species of maniacs and paranoiacs. Indeed, we find ourselves at a juncture that is by all means, critical: 'certainly conditions have never been so seriously revolutionary, but curiously enough it is only governments and intelligence systems who think so. Negation has been so thoroughly deprived of its thought that it dispersed long ago' (Debord). We will now reap the consequences of having raised generations of young people who do not desire any rupture, know no history or thought, and are ready for the Judgement of God: 'Today you can't desire rupture, or indeed anything that puts in question the framework and values of contemporary society. The control now begins in childhood, in the nursery and in school, for everyone without exception must be forced into the dominant redundancies of the system. The repressive societies now being established have two new characteristics: repression is softer, more diffuse, more generalized, but at the same time much more violent' (Guattari). Instead of being done with the Judgement of God, our civilization is now plunging into it, at a time when Whitman's 'revolutionary American dream', long ago betrayed and denied, reduces to a destruction that is called just: 'to destroy, to destroy an anonymous and interchangeable enemy, an _unspecified enemy_, has become the most essential act of the new justice' (Deleuze). Whenever a new order is proclaimed, we can be sure it is but another way to destroy the world, or what is left of it, to 'render it even more uninhabitable' than it already is. Ed says correctly that - >America is outraged and angered at terrorism, for >good reason,. These terrorists are Arabs. These Arabs are >angered and outraged at the US, for good reasons. This is a moment as good as ever for us to learn from history. The events of this blackest of Tuesdays have legitimately angered all Americans - and they were hideous, cowardly fascistic acts, to say the very least. Yet, barely three and two decades ago, the USA financed and armed such fundamentalist Islamist movements in Afghanistan and Pakistan, much as it once financed and helped, together with France, the mullahs of Iran repressed by the Shah Palavi's regime, which the USA also propped up. It is not a question of virtual justice where what goes around comes around. Rather, it is a question of the blind policies of democratic-representative regimes, their constant appeasement of fascism, their incorporation of fascism: and there is a long tradition to this, of which we cite solely the fundamental markers of the last century: America, England and France encouraged and financed national-socialism as a block to bolshevism, but at the price of later becoming the ally of stalinism in order to overcome national-socialism, and a consequent 'Cold War'; the same Allies imposed a blockade upon Republican and Anarchist Spain, when Franco, Mussolini and Hitler initiated the Spanish Civil War - and at that time, Berneri wrote those prophetic words - 'today is Guernica, Barcelona and Madrid, but tomorrow will be Paris, London, Moscow and New York'. This was the same Berneri who was assassinated by stalinist agents in 1937, one of his murderers having gone on to become the famous Togliatti of the Communist Party in the later democratic Italy. The OSS financed and armed Ho-Chi-Minh's early movement of opposition to the brutal Japanese rule, but when the time came to deny France its colonial domain of Vietnam, the USA reneged on its promises, and we now know at what cost. And the list goes on and on. Nor should we forget, on a note closer to the present conflict, which Occidental powers created Saddam Hussein, armed him and financed him, provided him with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. For we would find the same Allies that once carved - with the sublime disregard for life characteristic of the vengeful spirit - in the desert sand the straight borders of those artificial nation-States that would fix the semitic nomads and their desert of Arabia as a geostrategical map exclusively allotted to the exploration of black gold. The growth of civilization is merely a consequence of this greed for power which, at bottom, must be sustained by secure supplies of unending energy and unbridled demographic growth. This, however, does not justify the systematic faltering of modern civilization and its democratic-representative structures when faced with the responsibility of pactuating or not with fascism. How else are we to understand that having led the world to Desert Storm, Saddam Hussein was then allowed to survive the result of his megalomania and even encouraged to repeat it? And that the Kurds were systematically forgotten? There is no hiding the fact that the USA has for the past hundred years been forced to defend representative democracy and global capitalism, in a word, Occidental civilization as we know it, at critical historical conjunctures because its dealings and those of its Allies - with black fascism, with red fascism, with military and bureaucratic dictatorships - constantly backfire and, in the process, lead to veritable historical disasters, such as Pearl Harbor, the Jewish Genocide, the Tutsi massacres, etc, or the present slaughter in New York and Washington. But Americans stubbornly refuse to make this connection - refusing thereby to assume responsibility for their own history. There is always a Carlos or a Bin-Laden to blame, but who made them possible even as a historical inevitability? There certainly are historians who wonder if this harming of oneself that characterizes civilized peoples is the expression of a desire for self-abolition on the part of European or Occidental culture, or others who consider it as the cyclic inevitability of the propagation of that capitalist civilization, as it must subdue all other institutions of power, whether those of bureaucratic power (Party, Church and State), of military power (Armies and Terrorist or Intelligence networks), or those of ethnic power (the institutions of Family, Clan, Race and Religion), and, in the process of doing so must constantly subvert and agitate these power mechanisms, destabilize them and let them run amok along lines of pure folly 'in search of their God'. One might even wonder if there ever was a 'bourgeois revolution' that ushered in capitalist civilization without first having to employ Terror (happily attributed after the fact to some proletarian radical element gone astray), in order to overcome absolute monarchy and the tyranny of despots. Terror appears as the very instrument whereby civilization is constantly reborn - from the Jesuit Inquisition, to Cromwell, Robespierre, Lenin, Stalin, Mao or Pinochet and countless other Caesarisms. It is a point zero for a renewed accumulation on the ashes of already bankrupt social structures. Terror is what secures the end of a descent of civilization into barbarism, and always ushers in a New Order. (Presently, we have before us a New International Order for civilization, and a New Islamic Order for barbarism - two continents coming to a head at the ring under the watchful eye of an Old Order revitalized in China.) Part of this march of our civilization has been the destruction of all those cultures that do not share or cannot be made to share, not even by force of arms, our values which, no matter how noble, are still set above Life. Everywhere we destroyed savage-tribal societies, royal societies and nomadic bands - in the Americas, in Africa and in Asia - in the name of 'our Christ' and then of 'our Liberty', of 'our Equality' based upon exchange and privatization, and of our Christian version of Justice. The Russians have had their share of the same desire, not the least of which was their disastrous campaign to 'liberate' and 'civilize', in their way, the proud and fiercely independent nomads of Afghanistan. The criminal madness that ensued in Afghanistan was so intense that the reaction to it would inevitably be equally pathological: fanatic muslims fighting for their own version of what liberty is all about, riding a war-machine that defeated the Russians and then proceeded, with hard monies coming from Saudi Arabia and Iraqi oil, and logistics, training and armament from the USA, Pakistan and China, to develop a long-term international terrorist destabilization of civilization. The recent roots, however, of the present disaster - now to be amplified - can be traced to the murder of Yitzhak Rabin, and to those fundamentalists, of all colors and races, Christian, Jewish and Islamic, that conspired to void Rabin's dream of Peace amongst Semitic peoples. Had Rabin's and Clinton's policy of Peace succeeded, one might have been justified in asking the jewish people to forget the fact that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem once called for the Nazis to exterminate all Jews in Europe, or that the Fatah once rose by terrorism to assert the destruction of Israel; and, one might just as well have forgotten the massacres that, at the birth of the Israeli State and outside of the Hagannah, and later on at Sabra and Shattila, Sharon and his followers committed, to soil forever Jewish people anywhere on this planet with the same type of fascist crimes as those committed against the Jewish people during the Nazi Holocaust. But the truth is that forces _on all sides_ did not want to forget or forgive. These forces want us to forget history, but it is only for the benefit of a selective memory in the service of a vengeance against Life. These powerful social forces wanted blood, murder and terror. They wanted everyone to pay for their greed for land, god and power over the world. The perpetually erased historical memory of Americans does not permit the realization, other than unconsciously, that the roots of this conflict are millenary - and that Jihad has been the ongoing secular state of affairs between the Christian Occident and Moorish Barbarism, now embodied by fundamentalist Islam. Today, as has happened many times before, what is at stake is the order of the world, not freedom, a word which has become hollow. And in this conflict between Christianity and Islam, Christianity has used the Jewish people for its own purposes ever since the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the suicide at Masada. It has promised them equality of civil rights, only to promptly deny them, as happened in Germany and Italy, and persecute them with pogroms (in Slav-Orthodox and Catholic countries), or assimilate them by forced conversion (Spain, Portugal). It has promised them their own land, from Madagascar to Palestine, at last - once by even offering the Jewish people their own State under the aegis of a Templar State. And every time that Jews attempted to turn Palestine into the land of Sion, into the paradise of a collectivistic utopia of freedom and equality, the dream turned into a nightmare, with the entire world, the West included, accosting the Jews of Palestine into acquiescing to transform Sionism into just another form of fascism. Two weeks ago, the USA was the only country in the UN to nobly reject an abusive identification of Sionism with fascism and racialism, while Europe went along with what effectively was tantamount to a sanction of the murderous events that followed. Yet, the State of Israel is no longer a collectivist democracy, but another militarized religious State involved in a fascist racial war. This is, in fact, the real victory of fundamentalist Islam and the Intifadah: they succeeded in destroying the dream of Sion from within it. Many were those who did not want to be around when this new madness of war and terror would overtake civilization. Rabin's widow, but just as well Debord, Guattari, Deleuze, Foucault, all those who denounced the kind of fascism harbored by fundamentalism of every kind. They knew just how ugly it would all become. And the present events play directly into the hands of all types of fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism. Indeed, the latter would not use Biblical allegory in its millenarist visions of a Christian world, if these lines of fissure did not run deep in the unconscious of our entire civilization. And, in a sense, the presently unfolding events are a Christian-fundamentalist's dream of Apocalyptic prophecies having come true: a holy war against the enemies of Christian civilization, in the name of defending both Liberty and a New World Order. All reactionaries worldwide, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or still other, smiled when Ariel Sharon enforced his right to visit the holy sites in Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount, knowing full well that Barak's government, the last chance for a settlement by negotiated means, would be critically undermined by a classical double-bind that would plunge Israel into war, just as they smiled when Arafat, the fool, stuck to the mullahs' demand that Jerusalem be the capital of Palestine. And no one can forget the horrific and self-consuming hatred of Palestinian children who state openly the Intifadah will not finish until every Jew has been exterminated, in Israel and the world. Anymore than we should now forget that Netanyahu's and Sharon's party passed around posters of Rabin dressed in SS uniform on the days leading to his murder by fundamentalist Jews. Everywhere, the enemies of Peace and tolerance have triumphed. History forces us to appreciate the sheer madness that monotheism, or better, monotonotheism, has led us to. A single god, save perhaps for Akhnaton's, has always been an intolerant god. For the present mass psychopathology and its expression through religious hatred is actually a broad condition of social and spiritual misery everywhere in the world, a common trait uniting at the extremes of poverty Africa, South America and Asia. Without the constantly gratuitous violence, and the cultural, sexual and socio-economic misery of the marginal regions of capitalism, the hatred, the fanaticism, the anti-semitism, the self-victimization, the abominable cruelty, the cult of stupidity and religious fanaticism would not find ripe ground for sociological propagation and deification. The media currently try to convince us that the danger to civilization reduces to Muslim Fundamentalists, who are just a few, too few to constitute even a significant portion of the Islamic world. But the truth is that there are fundamentalists everywhere of every color and race trying to tip the world towards a gigantic Titanic disaster. Indeed, the mark of their success is now visible: they have succeeded in transforming America into a State-of-Siege. Assassinations by the State will again be permitted, and so will indiscriminate violations of privacy – tapping, bugging, etc. Fascists of all types have conspired to destroy the civil liberties of civilization, and Muslim Fundamentalists have now succeeded in doing so by murdering uncounted thousands last Tuesday; liberties will now disappear in the civilized world never to return again, precisely because the enemy is now within, of difficult identification, operating anonymously by Terror, in cells throughout society that have been laying dormant, cells composed of miserable people recruited amongst the victims of war from all those miserable concentration camps and regions of a rotting system, and inevitably this development will invite discrimination against Arabs and Muslims everywhere. Civil libertarians will be even more easily dismissed than they already are, because dissent will be seen as costing lives, in a persistent militarization and marshaling of civilization that may go on quite intensely for many years to come. The specter of nuclear and/or biological disaster looms in fact much closer today than a decade or two ago. And this may be just the end of the beginning. For the fissure between Occident and Islam that is now resurfacing is merely the symptom of a much deeper fracture that runs throughout Asia and the world, in the wake of a great impoverishment of Japan. The fascist fundamentalist groups and nation-States of Asia - such as Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, etc - have in the past decade become the preferred clients of Chinese armament dealers in the wake of the debacle of the USSR. Fundamentalist religion calls for a Muslim millennium mediated by the grand vision of a United States of Islam occupying the territory of India, Southern Russia, the Balkans and Israel, of course. In all these regions, nationalism has been exacerbated - including those forces that so far have contained fundamentalist Islam - such as the recent resurgence of Russian and Hindu nationalism. In a narrow but severe perspective, only China has to gain from a war between 'Fundamentalist Islam' and the West, Russia and India, and this is the reason why China and North Korea have aided and abetted Pakistan against India. This gives us a suitably long-term perspective on what are the deeper lines of cleavage driving the surface fissures. Chinese rulers actually believe that their turn at world hegemony will come after the next war has sufficiently weakened the US, Europe, India and Russia. This sliding-rule scenario has now gained new dimensions with China's control of Hong-Kong, its adoption of the US dollar, the recent spy-plane incident that demonstrated the hard-line the Chinese were willing to follow, and the most recent and 'liberal' offer of unification to Taiwan, barely a week ago. The coming conflict of the West with China comes via the West's conflict with Islamist Terrorism and, with that war having just begun, the democratic face of America will never be the same. One may well wonder, as Ed does, where this will all lead us to - as the masses now will be made to follow even more blindly behind blind leaders: >The tragedy now is compounded because we >have the most uninformed people and government that we have >had in many years. Just when we need leadership, we have >people who will take advantage of the justified anger to >further their own immediate political agenda. Meanwhile the >rest of us will pay the price for our ignorance and our >choice of leaders. We are now living in a true Greek >Tragedy because no other consequence is possible - too many >mistakes have been made, too many rules have been violated, >too many people have become outraged. For an individual, >the only defense is to stay out of the way of the train >wreak, not an easy task. As the light at the end of the tunnel turns into a freight-train coming our way, we see what reliance upon leaders, more than ever, has led us and our civilization to. For, this is no longer about revolution or barbarism: there are no revolutions left to do in the world; never was any revolution further from occurring, and fascism, barbarism closer to seizing the world. And it is not even any longer a question of civilization and barbarism, for civilization, as we speak, is about to yield to barbarism from within in order to fight barbarism from without. It is about to become a question between forms of barbarism or of fundamentalism, as if the entire planet had gone fascist or was ready to become fascist. As if all options left on the table were fascist: a soft fascism for Occidental civilization and a hard fascism for the Islamic and Chinese worlds. We're afraid, no one can stay out of the way of this coming train, because we are all aboard and no one can jump out. And only maniacs are now at the controls. We fear that - "a new kind of State regime is now being devised which won't require an October revolution or even a Chinese revolution, but will produce the same result: the people will be controlled by every available means" (Guattari). And we now know that - "Such a perfect democracy constructs its own inconceivable foe, terrorism. Its wish is, after all, _to be judged by its enemies rather than by its results_." (Debord) Lydia and Albert Hunt __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 19:25:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA12911; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:24:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:24:36 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Report from WTC ground zero. Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:32:41 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3BA55B90.BC669E27 verisoft.com.tr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"J-M1K2.0.f93.ZxLfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Hamdi. Yes, I don't have cable here so I don't see CNN's TV coverage. For that matter, I actually don't have television at all as such. See, all those broadcast antennas were on the roof of the WTC.... I wonder if what you see is the same as what gets shown domestically here. I know their web site is like this, several editions for different markets. Where are you? K. -----Original Message----- From: hamdi ucar [mailto:hamdix verisoft.com.tr] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 10:10 PM To: vortex Subject: Re: Report from WTC ground zero. Dear Keith, John and All, I am sorry that I disturbed you with my wrong conclusion, but on can not think otherwise if watched CNN. Maybe they are purposely avoiding some sensitive scenes. May they think showing cleanup only may improve the people moral. hamdi ucar Keith Nagel wrote: > > Hi All. > > I can see from the recent postings on Vortex that there > is some confusion regarding the state of affairs at the > WTC. I've avoided posting on this subject but it seems > that the media may be doing a poor job of explaining > what's happening on the ground. > > Yesterday, I filled my pocket with corporate ID and > pushed through the checkpoints to see the site. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 19:40:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA18975; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:39:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:39:45 -0700 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:47:28 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: Re: Report from WTC ground zero. In-Reply-To: <3BA55B90.BC669E27 verisoft.com.tr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"KK3I03.0.Ke4.n9Mfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Hamdi, It is good to see what others see overseas. Thank you. If someone like you who cares gets this impression, image what the overall take is for those who don't care that much! John On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, hamdi ucar wrote: > Dear Keith, John and All, > > I am sorry that I disturbed you with my wrong conclusion, but on can not think > otherwise if watched CNN. Maybe they are purposely avoiding some sensitive scenes. > May they think showing cleanup only may improve the people moral. > > hamdi ucar > > > > Keith Nagel wrote: > > > > Hi All. > > > > I can see from the recent postings on Vortex that there > > is some confusion regarding the state of affairs at the > > WTC. I've avoided posting on this subject but it seems > > that the media may be doing a poor job of explaining > > what's happening on the ground. > > > > Yesterday, I filled my pocket with corporate ID and > > pushed through the checkpoints to see the site. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 19:46:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA19771; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:41:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:41:36 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010916202633.009447c0 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:48:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: No desire to save life In-Reply-To: <3BA4B61F.F5392C09 verisoft.com.tr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"P10cn2.0.pq4.VBMfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All: As a storm spotter/chaser I have had some experience with this type of search and rescue. All be it on a much smaller scale. Even in the case of a small office complex collapsed by tornado damage the job is exhausting and disheartening. There is no amount of applause or gesture of thanks that will make us feel like we have properly rewarded the rescue workers... That applause is likely the only positive feedback that worker has gotten after working all day in conditions that can only be described as horrific. Here is the way it works. After searching all of the obvious places where it is relatively easy to get and dig folks out you laterally start scratching through the dust and mud. In the case of a tornado tree limbs bricks and broken glass could be mixed with office furniture utility debris and automobile parts. (usually barley recognizable) You don't use tools. Just some leather gloves. you jump in and start pulling debris out and moving to a place where you can put it down (so you don't have to move it again) If necessary you get on your hands and knees and scrape the muck into a bucket. The driving force is the thought that somebody might be alive in there. What you are looking for is anything that might direct you to a survivor. A pencil cup, a desktop, parts of a door frame or a set of keys. even a shoelace could be attached to the rest of a barred survivor. In my case it was a pocket pager. The pager was attached to a cord that was attached to the belt of one Norman Choler. Norm's upper torso was trapped into a smashed 30gal trash bucket which the broken out bottom led into storm cellar affording the man enough breathing air for a couple of weeks. The point here is that if we didn't dig him out he could have been there for a couple of weeks. He also could have been killed by a doser sent to clean up the mess. So for Norm's sake you just keep digging. IF you are real lucky you find a survivor but when the digging gets to the point of filling buckets usually you don't want to find anything. The night of the Fort Worth tornado I had worked until about 2300 and found nothing. In this case it was largely un stacking cinder blocks broken glass and paint cans... By the time we finished there was a small gallery and there was applause. Wow... That can mean so much. You know you have the support of everybody out there but when you walk off the site with your heart in your hands... That gesture of thanks can be so deeply felt. It means allot just trust me. By the way... I use a strap now to fasten my pager to my belt. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 21:16:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA16675; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:15:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:15:18 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: No desire to save life Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 00:23:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010916202633.009447c0 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"jFS5N2.0.T44.MZNfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Charles. A lot of other equipment is being used here, not just hands. Prominent was a crane which had a remarkable reach, it was like a big arm that just "grabbed" a hunk of wreakage and moved it. Dogs were pretty useless the first few days, pulverized concrete and drywall formed a harsh dust that ruined their noses. Verizon tried sniffing for cell phones, but as you might imagine the rubble is making that difficult. They have hand held video cameras mounted on long poles, articulated so that the camera could be jammed into and through stuff. The City is going to open up most of the financial district tomorrow. A frozen zone extends about 2 blocks from the epicenter. Presumably security will be tight but the area is a bunker as it is. The big irony is that the mayor, at great public expense, built an elaborate crisis management office complex with state of the art everything etc etc. Locally we referred to it as his "bunker" which seemed appropriate for the man and his public persona. It was located right next to the WTC towers. Mind you, this was done AFTER the first bombing. I'm afraid that at this point, what Gotham City needs is the friggin' BatMan. K. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1 yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 10:49 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: No desire to save life All: As a storm spotter/chaser I have had some experience with this type of search and rescue. All be it on a much smaller scale. Even in the case of a small office complex collapsed by tornado damage the job is exhausting and disheartening. There is no amount of applause or gesture of thanks that will make us feel like we have properly rewarded the rescue workers... That applause is likely the only positive feedback that worker has gotten after working all day in conditions that can only be described as horrific. Here is the way it works. After searching all of the obvious places where it is relatively easy to get and dig folks out you laterally start scratching through the dust and mud. In the case of a tornado tree limbs bricks and broken glass could be mixed with office furniture utility debris and automobile parts. (usually barley recognizable) You don't use tools. Just some leather gloves. you jump in and start pulling debris out and moving to a place where you can put it down (so you don't have to move it again) If necessary you get on your hands and knees and scrape the muck into a bucket. The driving force is the thought that somebody might be alive in there. What you are looking for is anything that might direct you to a survivor. A pencil cup, a desktop, parts of a door frame or a set of keys. even a shoelace could be attached to the rest of a barred survivor. In my case it was a pocket pager. The pager was attached to a cord that was attached to the belt of one Norman Choler. Norm's upper torso was trapped into a smashed 30gal trash bucket which the broken out bottom led into storm cellar affording the man enough breathing air for a couple of weeks. The point here is that if we didn't dig him out he could have been there for a couple of weeks. He also could have been killed by a doser sent to clean up the mess. So for Norm's sake you just keep digging. IF you are real lucky you find a survivor but when the digging gets to the point of filling buckets usually you don't want to find anything. The night of the Fort Worth tornado I had worked until about 2300 and found nothing. In this case it was largely un stacking cinder blocks broken glass and paint cans... By the time we finished there was a small gallery and there was applause. Wow... That can mean so much. You know you have the support of everybody out there but when you walk off the site with your heart in your hands... That gesture of thanks can be so deeply felt. It means allot just trust me. By the way... I use a strap now to fasten my pager to my belt. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 21:49:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA29073; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:48:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:48:25 -0700 Message-ID: <003501c13f4c$ebc4eb60$9f58ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3BA55B90.BC669E27@verisoft.com.tr> Subject: Re: Report from WTC ground zero. Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 00:45:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ti4AW3.0.A67.P2Ofx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi said: > Dear Keith, John and All, > > I am sorry that I disturbed you with my wrong conclusion, but on can not think > otherwise if watched CNN. Maybe they are purposely avoiding some sensitive scenes. > May they think showing cleanup only may improve the people moral. > > hamdi ucar And I apologize for being a bit testy -- understandably, I might say. I was away for a while and others have filled in for Hamdi essential data which he missed -- the nature of the WTC towers. These had a core of steel and elevator structure and an outer skin of large steel plates, several stories tall, with window cutouts, which collectively created a large tubular structure which was calculated to withstand direct impact by a 707. The planes that hit were larger, but the towers withstood the kinetic energy impact. What brought them down was the tons of burning jet fuel which could have flowed down elevator shafts and stair wells. Each floor was designed to have much open office space. The heat softened the steel members, allowing the upper block of floors to fall, and as they did, their impact on the lower floors simply sheared off the outer skin in a smooth implosion. Miraculously, one person who had been high in one of the towers was able to simply ride this 'elevator' down and walk away. Thus you have these steel panels, weighing tons, stacked around the base. Even heavy machinery can't lift many of them and they have to be cut apart with torches. As for CNN's coverage. Most networks planted cameras at vantage points on nearby buildings where some overall views could be obtained. Roving camera crews at ground zero were forbidden; usually such crews have to be within short radio range to a truck which has a telescoping mast and dish to relay video to a satellite or a relay point. These just weren't allowed. Eventually a few cameras did get to 'ground zero'. It isn't a matter of sparing anybody; TV thrives on drama. It's just that getting the work done was more important than getting the best satellite feed or close-ups of digging workers. In all the confusion, in all that was going on, unless you watched continuously or were familiar with the US scene, you could misinterpret what you saw -- little was neatly packaged and summarized -- it was raw video. And, unfortunately, all you could see from a distance was some heavy equipment picking at rubble in what looked like a clean-up operation. There will be summaries and perspectives appearing in the news magazines. I suggest you get one to get a more balanced perspective on what is happening. The same applies to statements made by Bush and his advisors. Media exaggerates; you will hear talk of war and reprisal and budgets and call ups of reserves. But you will also hear repeated calls for patience and restraint and a long, persistent effort and specific admonitions about not confusing those who mounted these attacks with the Islamic world in general, or the Arabic peoples. The US did such in WW2 and that mistake is not being made again. Make no mistake, the US has been bloodied and its resources and resolve, once aroused, have been underestimated before by tyrants. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 23:15:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA28777; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 23:15:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 23:15:24 -0700 From: Steve Krivit To: VORTEX Subject: Rescue versus Salvage Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 23:14:00 -0700 X-Mailer: MailBeamer v3.24 (Win98) Message-ID: <243298764.543478577.4294665009 Butthead.linkline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Koh_n1.0.T17.yJPfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi: You may have heard of a shift from a "Search and Rescue" operation to a "Recovery" operation. There is a point in time in the response to Mass Casualty Incidents where the odds of finding live bodies become highly unlikley. Disaster response teams in the US follow procedures which distinguish a point in time realtive to the objective of finding either a live body or a dead one. Methods, resources and manpower change according to what they are expecting to find. Some hope still exists to find live bodies but generally that is not expected. I have been finding www.bbc.co.uk to be, at times, more "inclusive" than www.cnn.com. Steve From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 16 23:56:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA12025; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 23:56:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 23:56:21 -0700 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 23:50:59 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Ball lightning made with TC To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <007501c13f45$25304be0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <148.1a605c5.28d5f68f aol.com> <3BA4A830.1E41799D@home.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"7dmHc.0.ox2.KwPfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com > Read Scientific American. Get 50 nm particles and put them in your arc > >In reply, Hoyt Stearns: Interesting. In Larson's Reciprocal System, unit length is 45.6 nm (half the Rydberg wavelength) >>> "Robin van Spaandonk" In-Reply-To: <3BA2233B.B6B56657 ix.netcom.com> References: <3BA2233B.B6B56657 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:07:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: our fate Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"tudp-1.0.2i3.K4Qfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I can see how you might feel that way Ed. OTOH, there is another way of looking at it. For the past thirty years I have been studying end time prophecy. At times like this I find my Christian faith to be of great comfort. -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 03:08:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA25393; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 03:07:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 03:07:23 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA5CB65.6C6AC21B verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:07:33 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Report from WTC ground zero. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"c5hyl3.0.hC6.RjSfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Keith, I am at Turkey, Istanbul. This a very crowded, unordered city with large percent of buildings are not proof to strong earthquake. And it is expected a big one will hit in near future. If it happens we will be no better than Kobe. Narrow communication chan nels of the city will be blocked. Phone and other communications network will collapse. There would be no rescue operations, even there would be no recovery. Millions can be lost. Everybody know this, since a large quake hit the area at 1997 and missed cl osely the city. Despite this about 50K was dead. Our people have great a religion, and have great confidence to Lord. So nobody try to prepare for such a disaster. People say "If we gonna to die, nobody can prevent this." They think their fate is already determined. Once, a detailed geophysical map is p repared showing the stiffness the earth, a vulnerability map of the city district by district. Announcement of this map get negative reaction apparently from public. It is said "We dont want to know how we are vulnerable". Actually it is afraid that real estate prices will fall in vulnerable places. So This map is never published. Fortunately, I live in a location risks are lower. I expect the building I live will be damaged but not collapse with a sever quake. I have an idea to save life in tall buildings, replacing emergency stairs. This is emergency windows. Windows will are equipped with shutes for higher levels and frictioned ropes for lower levels ( < 10-30), which allow people can safely jump out of windo ws by holding a rope. I initially thought high tech "gravity-shutes" or gravity belts waiting to be invented. But even low-tech can save life. I just figured a better method, replacing one time ropes with permanent steel ropes, where multiple friction bas ed sliders with handles or belts are attached. Each channels can be used by multiple levels. For example 400 channels with each 50-100 sliders each can allow 20000 person safe descent in less than 10 minutes. Keith Nagel wrote: > > Hi Hamdi. > > Yes, I don't have cable here so I don't see > CNN's TV coverage. For that matter, I actually > don't have television at all as such. > See, all those broadcast antennas were > on the roof of the WTC.... > > I wonder if what you see is the same as what gets shown > domestically here. I know their web site is like > this, several editions for different markets. > Where are you? > > K. > hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 05:46:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA05962; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 05:46:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 05:46:08 -0700 Message-Id: <200109171246.IAA02250 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Fwd: Bin Laden Said To Have Nukes Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:36:40 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA05939 Resent-Message-ID: <"JQ91T3.0.3T1.G2Vfx" mx1> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Friends, Even though the facts in this report may not be confirmed -- and it is even possible that the report is fabricated -- it is a good working hypothesis, sad to say. Gene Mallove ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 9/17/01 2:14 AM Received: 9/17/01 7:15 AM From: Remy C., remyc prodigy.net To: End Secrecy List, endsecrecy yahoogroups.com From: http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22611 Bin Laden said to have nukes Report: Extent of fugitive leader's arsenal 'no longer a doubt' By Jon Dougherty © 2001 WorldNetDaily.com Fugitive Saudi terrorist-sponsor Osama bin Laden is now known to have nuclear weapons, putting to rest previous speculation that left the possibility open, according to a weekly intelligence newsletter. A report published in this week's Geostrategy-Direct.com newsletter, edited in part by Washington Times staffers Bill Gertz and Robert Morton, indicated that bin Laden's possession of nuclear devices "is no longer a doubt." "Saudi billionaire fugitive Osama bin Laden has nuclear weapons. The question is how many," the report said. Gertz told WND he didn't write the assessment, but that the newsletter's primary editor, Morton, had a stringer in the Mideast who verified the information. Morton was out of his office and could not be reached for comment. "Russian intelligence sources who are fighting bin Laden members in Chechnya believe [he] has a handful of tactical nuclear weapons," said the report. "Arab intelligence sources say the Al Qaida head has as many as 20 weapons." Al Qaida is the name of the terrorist group bin Laden leads. The report says "both sides agree" that the Saudi terrorist managed to acquire his weapons by supporting the Chechen cause with money and volunteers, in exchange for nuclear materials and technology. Bin Laden "received [it] from Chechen insurgents who raided [Russian] nuclear installations for fuel and components around the former Soviet Union," the report said. "With that came the recruits from among scientists from the former Soviet Union. The rest was easy," said Geostrategy-Direct.com. The report said the actual location of the weapons is unknown, but "the assessment by both Arab and Russian sources is that bin Laden has managed to sneak at least some of the components to his lair in Afghanistan." Bin Laden is one of the FBI's Ten Most Wanted Fugitives. He is wanted in connection with the Aug. 7, 1998, bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa -- one in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and the other in Nairobi, Kenya. Over 200 were killed in the attacks. He is believed to have a connection to the Oct. 12 bombing of the destroyer USS Cole as it refueled in Yemen, WND reported Oct. 26. The State Department had no comment on the report, but other intelligence officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, told WND that any reports dealing with bin Laden are taken seriously. "Reports regarding bin Laden are always taken seriously and investigated," the official said. "He clearly poses a threat to U.S. interests around the world, so you can't dismiss every rumor out of hand. It wouldn't be prudent to do that." In January, the New York Times -- quoting U.S. officials -- said bin Laden's organization was making attempts to manufacture chemical weapons and "buy enriched uranium," one of the main components of a nuclear device. But as far back as August 1999, counter-terrorism experts said bin Laden may have acquired "up to 20 nuclear devices." "Yosef Bodansky, a researcher of the House Task Force for Counter-terrorism and author of a new book on bin Laden, told a news conference on Friday that bin Laden has been seeking to follow up on his bombings of two U.S. embassies in east Africa one year ago. Echoing U.S. officials, Bodansky said bin Laden was thwarted in plans to blow up the U.S. embassy and two consulates in India last December and January," WorldTribune.com reported. "It was also reported that bin Laden has biological, chemical and nuclear weapons and has received technical help from Iraq, Bodansky said. The nuclear weapons include suitcase bombs acquired through Chechen rebels," the paper said. "The Russians believe that he has a handful [of nuclear weapons]. The Saudi intelligence services are very conservative. ... They are friendly to the United States [and] believe that he has in the neighborhood of 20," Bodansky said, as quoted by the Internet paper. Bin Laden reportedly obtained and purchased the suitcase bombs from multiple sources, he said. He has a "collection of individuals knowledgeable in activating the bombs" and "is recruiting former Soviet special forces [to learn] how to operate the bombs behind enemy lines," Bodansky said. He noted that, according to his research, most of the weapons had been transferred through Pakistan. Related stories: Bin Laden joins Arafat Oklahoma City blast linked to bin Laden Suspect pegged in Cole bombing Bin Laden calls for war against U.S. Covert U.S. bin Laden mission underway Related column: Is bin Laden a nuclear power? Jon E. Dougherty is a staff reporter and columnist for WorldNetDaily, and author of the special report, "Election 2000: How the Military Vote Was Suppressed." ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 08:27:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04378; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:27:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:27:01 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917104327.03844470 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:47:41 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Afghanistan In-Reply-To: <200109161343.JAA09237 mercury.mv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Az6Ac.0.I41.4PXfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eugene F. Mallove wrote: >Very useful information on Afgahnistan. > >http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/14/afghanistan/index.html This information is exaggerated. I have nothing good to say about the Taliban, but I am sure they do not bury widows alive. That kind of hyperbole makes the entire description suspect. Beware of demonizing a whole culture or nation. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 08:27:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04420; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:27:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:27:09 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917104805.03859c08 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:10:48 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mills MUST BE replicated. That's the rule. In-Reply-To: <001901c13ded$60ffb9c0$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622 ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6 ix.netcom.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010914155948.02b4b9d0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"cCdht3.0.p41.CPXfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Just this morning Mills has posted a to the HSG forum excerpts from a new >paper submitted to the Int. J. Hydrogen Energy that contains more >significant and easily tested claims. That's good! I hope someone tests them, soon. Until someone does, we cannot believe them. All experiments must be independently replicated. >Think about this. You have a cold hydrogen plasma which is a fairly >efficient light source anyway, but you can increase its photon output by >an order of magnitude by adding a little argon. THIS IS AN ORDER OF >MAGNITUDE, FOLKS. If that doesn't start ringing some bells with free >energy experimenters, then perhaps they have chosen the wrong field. Yes, this is marvelous, if true. >Doesn't this work out to a COP over 6? Rothwell may choose not to believe >it since he apparently doesn't trust either Mills' integrity or Calvet >calorimetry. That is his prerogative. It is not my prerogative -- it is an essential step, and it is the foundation of the scientific method. Mills' integrity is irrelevant. I never believe anyone, anywhere until the claim is replicated. I never trust anyone's integrity. Mills might be Faraday incarnated. He might be someone I know and trust utterly on a personal level, such as Storms, Mizuno or McKubre, but until the claims are independently replicated -- I do not (fully) believe them. No exceptions are granted, no one escapes, nothing overrules this standard. I do not even believe myself! I do not fully believe the glow discharge excess heat results which I confirmed with my own instruments on several occasions, or the Griggs machine. As for Calvet calorimetry, I trust it in general, but not in any specific instance. I know ways to screw up Calvet calorimetry. As Reagan said, trust but verify. The calibration curve and null runs will verify this particular Calvet calorimeter. >Mills could be perpetrating a gigantic hoax, but think about it for a second. This very unlikely. It is somewhat more likely that he is fooling himself. In any case, we can only speculate about his motivation, honesty or state of mind, and such speculation proves nothing. The only way to prove or disprove his claim is to replicate it independently. > He's got fifty or so PhDs working for him - can you really find that > many who would be willing to go along with a hoax or even a self-deception. There were roughly 50 PhDs working in the top Russian lab that reported polywater, and they kept at it for more than ten years. In the end they admitted it was all experimental error. Fifty people in one lab can all go astray. It has happened before. On the other hand, if this effect is reported by 50 PhDs working independently, in different labs, without a connection with Mills, sympathy for him, or financial interest in the outcome, THAT would be convincing. Mills listed several "replications" in his earlier web page, which included some CF experiments that in my opinion do not add to his credibility. The CF results fit the nuclear hypothesis much better than his hypothesis. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 08:29:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05213; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:28:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:28:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:28:21 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"H6awf2.0.MH1.OQXfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.sas.org/Terrorist/SAS_ATN.html >From the Society of Amateur Scientists In the wake of the terrible tragedy in New York on September 11, 2001 a lot of us have been wondering what we can do to assist the effort to protect the United States from future terrorist attacks. As I write this the death toll is unknown, but it will no doubt be many thousands, probably many times more than the 2,400 souls lost on December 7, 1941. And as our nation launches a sustained effort against international terrorism, it seems quite likely that we will see more suicide bombings or perhaps worse, that will kill more Americans. My own view is that we are in for a rough decade. Most of us cannot help directly in the effort to hunt down and destroy the perpetrators of the horrible attack on the World Trade Center . However, the Society for Amateur Scientists might be able to help mitigate the carnage our nation will experience as the war against terrorism escalates to new levels. Here's why. Apparently, the idea of hijacking fully fueled airplanes and crashing them into vital US targets was first seriously proposed by novelist Tom Clancy. Clancy says that he told a key anti-terrorist person in the military about the plot of a book he was writing in which a hijacked plane was deliberately crashed into the capital building during a joint session of Congress. He asked if the military had thought about this scenario. The analyst, Clancy reports, said "No. But I promise you on Monday we will." The terrorists used a low tech, relatively low cost tactic that delivered an enormous about of energy with high accuracy to high value targets. Their idea was anticipated by an amateur analyst. There's a reason for that. Amateurs are accustomed to thinking up low tech solutions to difficult technical problems. Join the SAS Shadow Team In security circles, the game of pretending you are the enemy can yield tremendous insights into your vulnerabilities. It used to be called Red Teaming for obvious Cold War reasons. Today, with the new security challenges, it needs a new name. Sheldon Greaves suggests we call the game of getting into the terrorist's mind "Shadow Teaming." And that's what we're going to call it. Over the years I've occasionally indulged in Shadow Teaming by trying to dream up terrible things I could do if I were a terrorist. First I assume only inexpensive methods, and restrict myself to no more technology than I could buy at Radio Shack. Then I assume that I am an isolated person or a small cell of dedicated terrorists. Further, I assume the terrorists all want to survive the attack. (Like the kamikaze of World War II, a suicide bomber can inflect a lot of damage. Once. If the US can destroy the camps in which these people are trained and financed then the suicide bombers will, like the kamikaze, burn themselves out. Personally, I'm much more worried about people may be already in this country and who choose to survive to attack again.) I've been able to dream up an absolutely frightening array ways to very dramatically strike at the infrastructure that we all rely on. And in all my schemes the terrorist would survive to attack another day. My own view is that we will begin to see well-educated terrorists looking for ways to do maximum damage and survive. We must not assume that the FBI will identify these threats by themselves. We know the technology, and we have the expertise to make a real contribution. And I believe it is our duty as citizens to contribute that expertise to those who might be able to apply it to save American lives. This is where I believe the Society for Amateur Scientists can make an important contribution to our nation's security. I hope you feel the same way. So I've just created the SAS Anti-Terrorist Network to give you a chance to apply your creative energies to protecting America. Here's how it works. Dream up your most devious terrorist plots and email them to SAS Headquarters. I will put together a panel of experts to review all the material we receive and once each quarter we will assemble all of the technically feasible ideas into a secret report that we will deliver to the FBI. This material will never be published or made available to the public or even to the rest of the membership. After all, we don't want to train terrorists. Our community has a great deal to contribute. Please help. Submissions Here's a link to some great information about terrorists. Remember, a terrorist doesn't have to kill people. The aim of political terror is to make people feel unsafe. A terrorist can strike at any soft target, not necessarily large groups of people. Think about the entire infrastructure of the US. Because SAS does not have a lot of resources to throw at this project, you have to do the feasibility analysis yourself. Think the problem through. For example, don't just say "poison the water supply." You've got to specify exactly which poison, calculate how much they'd need to do the job, explain how the terrorists would get it and how they would inject it into a given water supply, etc. Don't assume the terrorists have access to any technology that you don't have access to. Apart from that, no rules. Come one everybody, scare me! Send your submissions ATN sas.org I've started a discussion about the Anti-Terrorist Network on the Forum. DO NOT DISCUSS SPECIFIC TACTICS IN THE FORUM! The area is reserved to talk about what you think about SAS carrying creating the Anti-Terrorist Network, and that affects you think it will have if any. Shawn Carlson Executive Director From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 09:06:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26423; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:06:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:06:07 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA611B7.4882860F ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:07:44 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: our fate References: <3BA2233B.B6B56657 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fV2ir1.0.nS6.kzXfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for your suggestion, Tom. A faith can be of great comfort at a time of trouble. Which faith depends on the individual. As for me, I believe in Life, both physical and spiritual. Religion is an effort by man to understand the relationship between the two. Because mankind is unable to agree on anything, no matter how compelling the evidence, we are presented with many different methods to explain this relationship, each thinking they have the answer. To me, the method does not matter. Whichever method gives the individual comfort and understanding is good. For me, Buddhism makes the most sense even though I was raised as a Christian. As for the Christian prophecies, I believe mankind will screwup in a regular way. Each religion takes advantage of this fact to predict a self-serving outcome. The result is never as the religion predicts because the situation is always distorted by self-interest and the myths of the belief system, even if the information comes directly from the Spirit World (God/Allah). For me, I find much more clarity in trying to predict how human nature will react. However, I do believe that after each plunge into the darkness of ignorance and anger, human kind will return more enlightened than before. Unfortunately, we do not seem to learn by any other method. The survivors of this process will always be those who were very lucky or knew how to avoid the process. Hopefully your faith will provide the necessary protection and insight. Best regards, Ed thomas malloy wrote: > I can see how you might feel that way Ed. OTOH, there is another way > of looking at it. For the past thirty years I have been studying end > time prophecy. At times like this I find my Christian faith to be of > great comfort. > -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 09:15:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA30982; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:15:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:15:24 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917112737.03831888 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:15:31 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Prospects for Mills versus conventional CF In-Reply-To: <00f001c13d7c$2975a760$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622 ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6 ix.netcom.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010914155948.02b4b9d0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"seUrs.0._Z7.R6Yfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >You could see the evolution clearly if you had closely followed the BLP web >site over just the last three years. I have been following it, but most of it is meaningless to me. >High quality, low cost energy (electricity) can always crowd out low >quality lower-cost energy, just from the convenience standpoint. Sure, >space heating can be accomplished with low quality energy, but the net >cost will be higher because of the added harware. We see millions more >electric space heaters being sold in the US even though they may cost 4 >times more to operate than kerosene - the list goes on and on. Electric heater are much safer than kerosene heaters, and more convenient. Both produce high-grade energy. I know two people in Japan disfigured for life from accidents with kerosene heaters, one of them when he was a child. Electric heaters often cause fires and severe burns, too. In my opinion, the safest and best space heating equipment is an object with a large surface area that produces mild, low-level heat, such as gas or electrically fired circulating hot water radiator, circa 1890. I prefer this to the forced air systems, which are noisy, although they do combine easily with central air-conditioning. If a heat generating CF cell could be developed that is compact, reliable and lasts 20 years, and generates temperatures up to 200 deg C, it might survive competition with a pure electricity generating system, in things like space heating, clothes dryers, cooking and so on. > > Maintaining an electric power distribution grid in a CF powered world >would be economic insanity. > >Nonsense! The grid is already here and maintenance, as opposed to building >it from scratch is "de minimis" - far less per capita than adding an >additional CF heater to every garage which also happened to already have a >LENR/ direct conversion electric powered vehicle. Maintaining the grid costs a fantastic amount of money. The entire grid has to be replaced every 20 to 50 years, depending on things like hurricanes. In Florida some years ago, 50 miles of high voltage pylons costing millions of dollars were destroyed a week after they were installed. Every house already has heating and air conditioning equipment. In a world with CF or Mills super chemistry, this equipment will eventually be replaced by a combined cogenerator / heater / air-conditioner, which will cost only a little more than the electrically powered equipment now in place. (The lifetime cost, without the central generator and distribution grid, will be far cheaper.) The idea of using a vehicle motor to power homes and buildings makes little sense, especially when the larger grid atrophies and disappears. During the day, vehicles would be absent, leaving the home dark, and without heating or air-conditioning. During the early morning, shopping mall employees would be unable to bake cookies, take inventory or vacuum the floor -- unless the mall was equipped with enough generator capacity anyway, in which case there would be no need to borrow electricity from customer automobiles. A vehicle parked at a corporation or shopping mall could not be economically connected to a grid -- local or wide. Connectors laid in a parking lot would soon be smashed by traffic. You could not convince people to take the trouble to plug in their cars, because the electricity they generate over an eight hour period would be worth perhaps $0.50 cents with super chemistry, or $0.000001 with CF. First generation CF vehicles are likely to have moving parts, such as steam turbines. A parking lot full of cars generating electricity would produce a great deal of noise, pollution from lubricating oil, and wear and tear on the motors. Even with no moving parts, continuous use of the machine will wear it out prematurely. The cost of wear and tear on a small automobile engine / generator would be much greater than with a larger, centralized generator, because small engines are built of cheaper material to less exacting specifications. Large equipment such as wind turbines and diesel locomotive engines last 20 to 30 times longer than automobile engines. I would not take two years off of the life of my car as a gift to my office landlord or a shopping mall owner. I would not do it in return for a few pennies a day. I would not bother to plug in for less than a dollar, and a shopping mall owner who paid me a dollar for the energy from a car during a 1-hour visit would lose his shirt even today, when electricity sells for $0.05 per kilowatt hour. > > His claims have not been independently confirmed or replicated, therefore >I > do not believe him. > >OK. If you look at his site you will see many independent claims of >confirmation, from the likes even of Lincoln Labs. Lincoln Labs did the electrochemical Ni cell, which confirms CF as much as it does super chemistry. > I will have to agree with you that the degree to which they are truly > independent is suspect. But at least have a look before you make such a > blanket denial. There are some serious independent players who have > weighed-in for Mills Many of the ones he listed previously have never heard of him, and their experiments are nothing like his. There may be some theoretical connection which I do not understand, but these are not replications in the normal sense of the word. I do not issue a blanket denial. I suspend judgement. I wait for independent replications. That means replications of his experiment, using his materials, to produce similar levels of electricity. It does not mean other experiments with other materials that produce heat, which he thinks lend support to his theories. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 09:27:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04452; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:26:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:26:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA61690.A91F849B ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:28:27 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TOPv_1.0.Q51.6HYfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill, this is a great idea with several major flaws. No one will pay any attention to your ideas, as was demonstrated by your example. As everyone knows who flew, airport security was a joke. Even a half-wit would see the holes in the system. The system existed in this form because it was too much trouble and expense to do it differently, and the people in charge were completely ignorant about the threat. Now, at least they know of the threat. As a result, they will over react in the other direction. But, once again they will leave holes because it is impossible to totally protect the system. They take your nail clippers while the ceramic knives go through unnoticed. In any case, the next threat will not come through these channels because the the terrorists will want to show that they can attack anywhere, especially where the holes are least guarded. Each attack will shut down one more freedom and convenience. Meanwhile, to the extent that the authorities take your suggestions to heart, even more freedom and convenience will be lost. If the authorities do not take your advice, any terrorist reading this website will have some good ideas where we are weakest. Therefore, I suggest any interaction on this subject be kept completely private. Regards, Ed William Beaty wrote: > http://www.sas.org/Terrorist/SAS_ATN.html > > >From the Society of Amateur Scientists > > In the wake of the terrible tragedy in New York on September 11, 2001 a lot > of us have been wondering what we can do to assist the effort to protect the > United States from future terrorist attacks. As I write this the death toll > is unknown, but it will no doubt be many thousands, probably many times more > than the 2,400 souls lost on December 7, 1941. And as our nation launches a > sustained effort against international terrorism, it seems quite likely that > we will see more suicide bombings or perhaps worse, that will kill more > Americans. My own view is that we are in for a rough decade. > > Most of us cannot help directly in the effort to hunt down and destroy the > perpetrators of the horrible attack on the World Trade Center . However, the > Society for Amateur Scientists might be able to help mitigate the carnage > our nation will experience as the war against terrorism escalates to new > levels. Here's why. > > Apparently, the idea of hijacking fully fueled airplanes and crashing them > into vital US targets was first seriously proposed by novelist Tom Clancy. > Clancy says that he told a key anti-terrorist person in the military about > the plot of a book he was writing in which a hijacked plane was deliberately > crashed into the capital building during a joint session of Congress. He > asked if the military had thought about this scenario. The analyst, Clancy > reports, said "No. But I promise you on Monday we will." The terrorists used > a low tech, relatively low cost tactic that delivered an enormous about of > energy with high accuracy to high value targets. Their idea was anticipated > by an amateur analyst. > > There's a reason for that. Amateurs are accustomed to thinking up low tech > solutions to difficult technical problems. > > Join the SAS Shadow Team > > In security circles, the game of pretending you are the enemy can yield > tremendous insights into your vulnerabilities. It used to be called Red > Teaming for obvious Cold War reasons. Today, with the new security > challenges, it needs a new name. Sheldon Greaves suggests we call the game > of getting into the terrorist's mind "Shadow Teaming." And that's what we're > going to call it. > > Over the years I've occasionally indulged in Shadow Teaming by trying to > dream up terrible things I could do if I were a terrorist. First I assume > only inexpensive methods, and restrict myself to no more technology than I > could buy at Radio Shack. Then I assume that I am an isolated person or a > small cell of dedicated terrorists. Further, I assume the terrorists all > want to survive the attack. (Like the kamikaze of World War II, a suicide > bomber can inflect a lot of damage. Once. If the US can destroy the camps in > which these people are trained and financed then the suicide bombers will, > like the kamikaze, burn themselves out. Personally, I'm much more worried > about people may be already in this country and who choose to survive to > attack again.) I've been able to dream up an absolutely frightening array > ways to very dramatically strike at the infrastructure that we all rely on. > And in all my schemes the terrorist would survive to attack another day. > > My own view is that we will begin to see well-educated terrorists looking > for ways to do maximum damage and survive. We must not assume that the FBI > will identify these threats by themselves. We know the technology, and we > have the expertise to make a real contribution. And I believe it is our duty > as citizens to contribute that expertise to those who might be able to apply > it to save American lives. > > This is where I believe the Society for Amateur Scientists can make an > important contribution to our nation's security. > > I hope you feel the same way. So I've just created the SAS Anti-Terrorist > Network to give you a chance to apply your creative energies to protecting > America. Here's how it works. Dream up your most devious terrorist plots and > email them to SAS Headquarters. I will put together a panel of experts to > review all the material we receive and once each quarter we will assemble > all of the technically feasible ideas into a secret report that we will > deliver to the FBI. This material will never be published or made available > to the public or even to the rest of the membership. After all, we don't > want to train terrorists. > > Our community has a great deal to contribute. Please help. > > Submissions > > Here's a link to some great information about terrorists. > > Remember, a terrorist doesn't have to kill people. The aim of political > terror is to make people feel unsafe. A terrorist can strike at any soft > target, not necessarily large groups of people. Think about the entire > infrastructure of the US. > > Because SAS does not have a lot of resources to throw at this project, you > have to do the feasibility analysis yourself. Think the problem through. For > example, don't just say "poison the water supply." You've got to specify > exactly which poison, calculate how much they'd need to do the job, explain > how the terrorists would get it and how they would inject it into a given > water supply, etc. Don't assume the terrorists have access to any technology > that you don't have access to. > > Apart from that, no rules. Come one everybody, scare me! > > Send your submissions ATN sas.org > > I've started a discussion about the Anti-Terrorist Network on the Forum. DO > NOT DISCUSS SPECIFIC TACTICS IN THE FORUM! The area is reserved to talk > about what you think about SAS carrying creating the Anti-Terrorist Network, > and that affects you think it will have if any. > > Shawn Carlson > Executive Director From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 09:58:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20013; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:55:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:55:33 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917122146.00aa0738 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:55:58 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"fZGoC.0.Wu4.3iYfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty quoted: >Apparently, the idea of hijacking fully fueled airplanes and crashing them >into vital US targets was first seriously proposed by novelist Tom Clancy. Give me a break!!! That's absurd. The tactic was first used successfully in October 1944, by the kamikazes. Very often the bombs failed to go off, especially in near misses, but the burning fuel caused extensive injuries. This is common knowledge. The strategy was quite effective at first. Fifty-five kamikaze pilots sank an aircraft carrier, a light cruiser, and damaged 13 other ship, some of the severely. The success rate of the early attacks was so great that the Japanese navy might have sunk every U.S. ship if effective countermeasures had not been devised. >Clancy says that he told a key anti-terrorist person in the military about >the plot of a book he was writing in which a hijacked plane was >deliberately crashed into the capital building during a joint session of >Congress. He asked if the military had thought about this scenario. The >analyst, Clancy reports, said "No. But I promise you on Monday we will." If military analysts really are this stupid, and they know nothing about the history of the U.S. Navy in WWII, that would explain why they reportedly let two known bin Laden agents board an airplane. There seems to be a gigantic deficit of common sense in response to this disaster. Firefighters should have known the buildings would collapse. It is their job to know this sort of thing. They should have been double sure after the first one collapsed. Some quotes: "I would have given the order to get out - you would have thought someone with technical expertise would have been advising them" Professor John Knapton, Newcastle University . . . . . . the eventual collapse of the twin towers was so predictable that the order should have been given to withdraw emergency services within an hour, said Professor Knapton. He watched in horror, knowing the building would fall within two hours. The hundreds of dead firemen and police officers should simply not have been there, he said. "I think they should not have gone in at all," he said. "If they did decide to take the risk, they should have been pulled out after an hour." But in the panic and horror, the order was never given for rescue workers to abandon the building. "Mistakes were made," said Professor Knapton. "It was like a horror film and I think people's rationale had gone" . . . http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1540000/1540044.stm Restaurants in the Atlanta Airport have removed all plastic knives. They hand out only forks, and they have taken steak off the menu. I presume airlines have stopped using knives on in-flight meals as well, and perhaps they no longer use glass beer bottles. This is senseless hysteria, which does not address the problem. Does anyone seriously believe a hijacker could once again attack with small knives, now that air crews and passengers realize what this might lead to? The technique only worked because it never occurred to people that hijackers might be this crazy. A crowd of people can easily overcome an attacker armed with a small knife. All airplanes are equipped with fire axes in the pilot compartment. If anyone tries to hijack airplane with a knife today, obviously the pilots will defend themselves. In the near future I hope airlines have enough sense to replace the light pilot cabin doors with unbreakable bulletproof doors. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 10:38:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA07015; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:37:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:37:45 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Afghanistan Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:47:24 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917104327.03844470 pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917104327.03844470 pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091713472400.01370 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA06983 Resent-Message-ID: <"wFMgS1.0.Sj1.fJZfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday 17 September 2001 07:47, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > > >Very useful information on Afgahnistan. > > > >http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/14/afghanistan/index.html > > This information is exaggerated. I have nothing good to say about the > Taliban, but I am sure they do not bury widows alive. That kind of > hyperbole makes the entire description suspect. Beware of demonizing a > whole culture or nation. > > - Jed > > Maybe you beware of misguided 'political correctness'. There is now forming a new 'political correctness' just as surely as in the great purges of the USSR in the 1950's. At that time, people in the USSR practiced a kind of 'self censor' so that they would not be prosecuted for 'improper' speech or writing. As yet we do not have that here. The article from Salon magazine evidently is supported by Salon to the extent that the Bin Laden and Taliban forces are probably fully able to use their money and mouthpieces (1930ish for lawyers in the gangland era) to sue if it was a lie. Be also aware that practitioners of 'political correctness' also have great capacity to lie and use half-truths as a weapon along with implied threats It almost fits the character of an extremist gang to do that to their widows. They pronounced them unemployable in religious, and therefor unretractable terms. That makes all of them ultimately wards of the state, as no one has the capacity to take care of them. They cannot care for them or refuse to, so therefore they do with them what they do to villagers from captured territory of Mr Rabbani's government in the northeast----they massacre them by whatever means. When democracy comes again to this poor country, and it will, these mass graves will be found. Not by you, who will now have a common cause with the Taliban in not locating them, but by the new rulers of the country, who will want the information in order to prosecute the murderers. Too bad they will not be able to prosecute the apologists too. I remember Cambodia! I will never forget Cambodia. The world should not forget either, no matter how many 'politically correct' excuses for humanity refuse to see. I realize this is a dialogue of the deaf for some, but some will know. Now back to rational discussion of what this list is really all about.................physics, my first love. Sorry for the interruption Standing Bear see also the letter from Mr Mallove about the nukes that Bin Laden has! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 11:24:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA27701; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:23:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:23:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA631F3.E9F7DDAA ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:25:28 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Our fate References: <20010917021927.41380.qmail web20308.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5C5bI.0.km6.G-Zfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Lydia and Albert, Thanks, you have added some very useful fat and muscle to my rather lean remarks. Our situation is very difficult because the information needed to make wise judgments, some of which you noted, is not easily given to the necessary people as rapidly as events demand. Even when such information is available, self-interest distorts how it is used. In addition, as only a few people can bring down a building, it takes only a few bigots to destabilize a society, whether that society is ours or one in an Arab country. Bigotry is very common in the human population everywhere. Events like this one, as well as those happening every day in the Israeli region, bring out this characteristic and give it permission to do its damage. We fought this defect in the human spirit with respect to our attitude toward the Chinese for many years, toward the Japanese during WWII, and toward the Blacks on a regular basis, with each ethnic group also having bigotry toward one of the others. Now we will have the Arabs as part of the mix. Hopefully, we have learned our lessons from pasts mistakes and will not tolerate this behavior toward anyone. If not, I fear we are all doomed because this attitude will translate into excessive reaction by the US government toward the Arab world, in the name of fighting terrorism, and this reaction will fuel more bigotry in the Arab world. Gandhi and Christ were correct, unless we want to destroy the fragile order in the world, we need to turn the other cheek. Of course, this alone would do no good. The other thing we must do is ask responsible people in the Arab world what they need us to do in order to reduce the hatred. If this means being more fair in the Israel-Palestine conflict, then we must do this. The question is, how much are we as a country and as a way of life willing to lose before we change our approach to the problems of the world? Regards, Ed Lydia Hunt wrote: > "The precious advantage which the spectacle has acquired through the > _outlawing of history_, from having driven the recent past into hiding, > and from having made everyone forget the spirit of history within > society, is above all the ability to cover its own tracks - to conceal > the very progress of its recent world conquest. Its power already > seems familiar, as if it had always been there." > > Dear Ed ? and to any others whose eyes are peeled open at this - the > most bizarre of times- > > Your courageous and insightful message was brought to our attention, > and we felt such a strong resonance with your words that it led us to > add some further thoughts to yours on this - the gravest of matters, > the assuming of a fate that repels any intelligence. > > The USA and NATO have not so much declared war on Arab countries as on > Muslim countries and social movements that have cultivated > fundamentalist Islam as their mission - to conquer the world and > convert it to 'the righteous path of God'. The ridiculous pretense has > never stopped any fanatic or militant, since they seek vengeance from > the world but disguise it in wars of liberation, the fight against > injustice and so on, speaking in the name of all else save their crude > desire for vengeance and retaliation. Muslim fanatics or Islamist > militants are no novelty in this regard. If anyone had any illusions > about the fascist nature of the moralistic and religious collective > 'dream' of the subjected masses in these Muslim countries, all that is > needed as remedy is to peruse the folkloric announcement of these > intentions, on sites such as that of the Pakistani Muttahida Jihad > Council - > > http://www.freeyellow.com/members5/unitedstatesofislam/index.html > > where the hard lines of this nightmare of hatred and misery are made > rather apparent: check the box where an entirely fundamentalist Muslim > world is forecast to come to pass after 100 years. > > One wonders whether the gigantic infantilization of the world made > possible by spectacular dissemination of all the atavisms of religion, > family, race, god and country did not engender, with its instant > communications, its mobile phones, its satellite TV and worldwide web, > equally disneyfied and bizarre, distorted embodiments, often proclaimed > as 'progressive', of such atavisms in the marginal zones of > civilization, where barbarism became the rule of adaptation and > coexistence. That any Muslim would believe such a ridiculous vision as > the conquest of the world by jihad as the path to God, gives us the > proportion of the pathology. > > And we have to wonder how this came about, how we managed to produce a > whole species of maniacs and paranoiacs. Indeed, we find ourselves at > a juncture that is by all means, critical: 'certainly conditions have > never been so seriously revolutionary, but curiously enough it is only > governments and intelligence systems who think so. Negation has been > so thoroughly deprived of its thought that it dispersed long ago' > (Debord). We will now reap the consequences of having raised > generations of young people who do not desire any rupture, know no > history or thought, and are ready for the Judgement of God: 'Today you > can't desire rupture, or indeed anything that puts in question the > framework and values of contemporary society. The control now begins > in childhood, in the nursery and in school, for everyone without > exception must be forced into the dominant redundancies of the system. > The repressive societies now being established have two new > characteristics: repression is softer, more diffuse, more generalized, > but at the same time much more violent' (Guattari). > > Instead of being done with the Judgement of God, our civilization is > now plunging into it, at a time when Whitman's 'revolutionary American > dream', long ago betrayed and denied, reduces to a destruction that is > called just: 'to destroy, to destroy an anonymous and interchangeable > enemy, an _unspecified enemy_, has become the most essential act of the > new justice' (Deleuze). > > Whenever a new order is proclaimed, we can be sure it is but another > way to destroy the world, or what is left of it, to 'render it even > more uninhabitable' than it already is. > > Ed says correctly that - > > >America is outraged and angered at terrorism, for > >good reason,. These terrorists are Arabs. These Arabs are > >angered and outraged at the US, for good reasons. > > This is a moment as good as ever for us to learn from history. The > events of this blackest of Tuesdays have legitimately angered all > Americans - and they were hideous, cowardly fascistic acts, to say the > very least. Yet, barely three and two decades ago, the USA financed > and armed such fundamentalist Islamist movements in Afghanistan and > Pakistan, much as it once financed and helped, together with France, > the mullahs of Iran repressed by the Shah Palavi's regime, which the > USA also propped up. > > It is not a question of virtual justice where what goes around comes > around. Rather, it is a question of the blind policies of > democratic-representative regimes, their constant appeasement of > fascism, their incorporation of fascism: and there is a long tradition > to this, of which we cite solely the fundamental markers of the last > century: America, England and France encouraged and financed > national-socialism as a block to bolshevism, but at the price of later > becoming the ally of stalinism in order to overcome national-socialism, > and a consequent 'Cold War'; the same Allies imposed a blockade upon > Republican and Anarchist Spain, when Franco, Mussolini and Hitler > initiated the Spanish Civil War - and at that time, Berneri wrote those > prophetic words - 'today is Guernica, Barcelona and Madrid, but > tomorrow will be Paris, London, Moscow and New York'. This was the > same Berneri who was assassinated by stalinist agents in 1937, one of > his murderers having gone on to become the famous Togliatti of the > Communist Party in the later democratic Italy. The OSS financed and > armed Ho-Chi-Minh's early movement of opposition to the brutal Japanese > rule, but when the time came to deny France its colonial domain of > Vietnam, the USA reneged on its promises, and we now know at what cost. > And the list goes on and on. > > Nor should we forget, on a note closer to the present conflict, which > Occidental powers created Saddam Hussein, armed him and financed him, > provided him with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. For we > would find the same Allies that once carved - with the sublime > disregard for life characteristic of the vengeful spirit - in the > desert sand the straight borders of those artificial nation-States that > would fix the semitic nomads and their desert of Arabia as a > geostrategical map exclusively allotted to the exploration of black > gold. The growth of civilization is merely a consequence of this greed > for power which, at bottom, must be sustained by secure supplies of > unending energy and unbridled demographic growth. > > This, however, does not justify the systematic faltering of modern > civilization and its democratic-representative structures when faced > with the responsibility of pactuating or not with fascism. How else > are we to understand that having led the world to Desert Storm, Saddam > Hussein was then allowed to survive the result of his megalomania and > even encouraged to repeat it? And that the Kurds were systematically > forgotten? > > There is no hiding the fact that the USA has for the past hundred years > been forced to defend representative democracy and global capitalism, > in a word, Occidental civilization as we know it, at critical > historical conjunctures because its dealings and those of its Allies - > with black fascism, with red fascism, with military and bureaucratic > dictatorships - constantly backfire and, in the process, lead to > veritable historical disasters, such as Pearl Harbor, the Jewish > Genocide, the Tutsi massacres, etc, or the present slaughter in New > York and Washington. But Americans stubbornly refuse to make this > connection - refusing thereby to assume responsibility for their own > history. There is always a Carlos or a Bin-Laden to blame, but who > made them possible even as a historical inevitability? > > There certainly are historians who wonder if this harming of oneself > that characterizes civilized peoples is the expression of a desire for > self-abolition on the part of European or Occidental culture, or others > who consider it as the cyclic inevitability of the propagation of that > capitalist civilization, as it must subdue all other institutions of > power, whether those of bureaucratic power (Party, Church and State), > of military power (Armies and Terrorist or Intelligence networks), or > those of ethnic power (the institutions of Family, Clan, Race and > Religion), and, in the process of doing so must constantly subvert and > agitate these power mechanisms, destabilize them and let them run amok > along lines of pure folly 'in search of their God'. One might even > wonder if there ever was a 'bourgeois revolution' that ushered in > capitalist civilization without first having to employ Terror (happily > attributed after the fact to some proletarian radical element gone > astray), in order to overcome absolute monarchy and the tyranny of > despots. Terror appears as the very instrument whereby civilization is > constantly reborn - from the Jesuit Inquisition, to Cromwell, > Robespierre, Lenin, Stalin, Mao or Pinochet and countless other > Caesarisms. It is a point zero for a renewed accumulation on the ashes > of already bankrupt social structures. Terror is what secures the end > of a descent of civilization into barbarism, and always ushers in a New > Order. (Presently, we have before us a New International Order for > civilization, and a New Islamic Order for barbarism - two continents > coming to a head at the ring under the watchful eye of an Old Order > revitalized in China.) > > Part of this march of our civilization has been the destruction of all > those cultures that do not share or cannot be made to share, not even > by force of arms, our values which, no matter how noble, are still set > above Life. Everywhere we destroyed savage-tribal societies, royal > societies and nomadic bands - in the Americas, in Africa and in Asia - > in the name of 'our Christ' and then of 'our Liberty', of 'our > Equality' based upon exchange and privatization, and of our Christian > version of Justice. The Russians have had their share of the same > desire, not the least of which was their disastrous campaign to > 'liberate' and 'civilize', in their way, the proud and fiercely > independent nomads of Afghanistan. The criminal madness that ensued in > Afghanistan was so intense that the reaction to it would inevitably be > equally pathological: fanatic muslims fighting for their own version of > what liberty is all about, riding a war-machine that defeated the > Russians and then proceeded, with hard monies coming from Saudi Arabia > and Iraqi oil, and logistics, training and armament from the USA, > Pakistan and China, to develop a long-term international terrorist > destabilization of civilization. > > The recent roots, however, of the present disaster - now to be > amplified - can be traced to the murder of Yitzhak Rabin, and to those > fundamentalists, of all colors and races, Christian, Jewish and > Islamic, that conspired to void Rabin's dream of Peace amongst Semitic > peoples. > > Had Rabin's and Clinton's policy of Peace succeeded, one might have > been justified in asking the jewish people to forget the fact that the > Grand Mufti of Jerusalem once called for the Nazis to exterminate all > Jews in Europe, or that the Fatah once rose by terrorism to assert the > destruction of Israel; and, one might just as well have forgotten the > massacres that, at the birth of the Israeli State and outside of the > Hagannah, and later on at Sabra and Shattila, Sharon and his followers > committed, to soil forever Jewish people anywhere on this planet with > the same type of fascist crimes as those committed against the Jewish > people during the Nazi Holocaust. > > But the truth is that forces _on all sides_ did not want to forget or > forgive. These forces want us to forget history, but it is only for > the benefit of a selective memory in the service of a vengeance against > Life. These powerful social forces wanted blood, murder and terror. > They wanted everyone to pay for their greed for land, god and power > over the world. The perpetually erased historical memory of Americans > does not permit the realization, other than unconsciously, that the > roots of this conflict are millenary - and that Jihad has been the > ongoing secular state of affairs between the Christian Occident and > Moorish Barbarism, now embodied by fundamentalist Islam. Today, as has > happened many times before, what is at stake is the order of the world, > not freedom, a word which has become hollow. > > And in this conflict between Christianity and Islam, Christianity has > used the Jewish people for its own purposes ever since the Roman > destruction of Jerusalem and the suicide at Masada. It has promised > them equality of civil rights, only to promptly deny them, as happened > in Germany and Italy, and persecute them with pogroms (in Slav-Orthodox > and Catholic countries), or assimilate them by forced conversion > (Spain, Portugal). It has promised them their own land, from > Madagascar to Palestine, at last - once by even offering the Jewish > people their own State under the aegis of a Templar State. And every > time that Jews attempted to turn Palestine into the land of Sion, into > the paradise of a collectivistic utopia of freedom and equality, the > dream turned into a nightmare, with the entire world, the West > included, accosting the Jews of Palestine into acquiescing to transform > Sionism into just another form of fascism. Two weeks ago, the USA was > the only country in the UN to nobly reject an abusive identification of > Sionism with fascism and racialism, while Europe went along with what > effectively was tantamount to a sanction of the murderous events that > followed. Yet, the State of Israel is no longer a collectivist > democracy, but another militarized religious State involved in a > fascist racial war. This is, in fact, the real victory of > fundamentalist Islam and the Intifadah: they succeeded in destroying > the dream of Sion from within it. > > Many were those who did not want to be around when this new madness of > war and terror would overtake civilization. Rabin's widow, but just as > well Debord, Guattari, Deleuze, Foucault, all those who denounced the > kind of fascism harbored by fundamentalism of every kind. They knew > just how ugly it would all become. And the present events play > directly into the hands of all types of fundamentalism, including > Christian fundamentalism. Indeed, the latter would not use Biblical > allegory in its millenarist visions of a Christian world, if these > lines of fissure did not run deep in the unconscious of our entire > civilization. And, in a sense, the presently unfolding events are a > Christian-fundamentalist's dream of Apocalyptic prophecies having come > true: a holy war against the enemies of Christian civilization, in the > name of defending both Liberty and a New World Order. > > All reactionaries worldwide, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish or still > other, smiled when Ariel Sharon enforced his right to visit the holy > sites in Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount, knowing full well that > Barak's government, the last chance for a settlement by negotiated > means, would be critically undermined by a classical double-bind that > would plunge Israel into war, just as they smiled when Arafat, the > fool, stuck to the mullahs' demand that Jerusalem be the capital of > Palestine. > > And no one can forget the horrific and self-consuming hatred of > Palestinian children who state openly the Intifadah will not finish > until every Jew has been exterminated, in Israel and the world. > Anymore than we should now forget that Netanyahu's and Sharon's party > passed around posters of Rabin dressed in SS uniform on the days > leading to his murder by fundamentalist Jews. Everywhere, the enemies > of Peace and tolerance have triumphed. > > History forces us to appreciate the sheer madness that monotheism, or > better, monotonotheism, has led us to. A single god, save perhaps for > Akhnaton's, has always been an intolerant god. For the present mass > psychopathology and its expression through religious hatred is actually > a broad condition of social and spiritual misery everywhere in the > world, a common trait uniting at the extremes of poverty Africa, South > America and Asia. Without the constantly gratuitous violence, and the > cultural, sexual and socio-economic misery of the marginal regions of > capitalism, the hatred, the fanaticism, the anti-semitism, the > self-victimization, the abominable cruelty, the cult of stupidity and > religious fanaticism would not find ripe ground for sociological > propagation and deification. The media currently try to convince us > that the danger to civilization reduces to Muslim Fundamentalists, who > are just a few, too few to constitute even a significant portion of the > Islamic world. But the truth is that there are fundamentalists > everywhere of every color and race trying to tip the world towards a > gigantic Titanic disaster. Indeed, the mark of their success is now > visible: they have succeeded in transforming America into a > State-of-Siege. Assassinations by the State will again be permitted, > and so will indiscriminate violations of privacy ? tapping, bugging, > etc. > > Fascists of all types have conspired to destroy the civil liberties of > civilization, and Muslim Fundamentalists have now succeeded in doing so > by murdering uncounted thousands last Tuesday; liberties will now > disappear in the civilized world never to return again, precisely > because the enemy is now within, of difficult identification, operating > anonymously by Terror, in cells throughout society that have been > laying dormant, cells composed of miserable people recruited amongst > the victims of war from all those miserable concentration camps and > regions of a rotting system, and inevitably this development will > invite discrimination against Arabs and Muslims everywhere. Civil > libertarians will be even more easily dismissed than they already are, > because dissent will be seen as costing lives, in a persistent > militarization and marshaling of civilization that may go on quite > intensely for many years to come. The specter of nuclear and/or > biological disaster looms in fact much closer today than a decade or > two ago. > > And this may be just the end of the beginning. For the fissure between > Occident and Islam that is now resurfacing is merely the symptom of a > much deeper fracture that runs throughout Asia and the world, in the > wake of a great impoverishment of Japan. The fascist fundamentalist > groups and nation-States of Asia - such as Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, etc - > have in the past decade become the preferred clients of Chinese > armament dealers in the wake of the debacle of the USSR. > Fundamentalist religion calls for a Muslim millennium mediated by the > grand vision of a United States of Islam occupying the territory of > India, Southern Russia, the Balkans and Israel, of course. In all > these regions, nationalism has been exacerbated - including those > forces that so far have contained fundamentalist Islam - such as the > recent resurgence of Russian and Hindu nationalism. In a narrow but > severe perspective, only China has to gain from a war between > 'Fundamentalist Islam' and the West, Russia and India, and this is the > reason why China and North Korea have aided and abetted Pakistan > against India. This gives us a suitably long-term perspective on what > are the deeper lines of cleavage driving the surface fissures. Chinese > rulers actually believe that their turn at world hegemony will come > after the next war has sufficiently weakened the US, Europe, India and > Russia. This sliding-rule scenario has now gained new dimensions with > China's control of Hong-Kong, its adoption of the US dollar, the recent > spy-plane incident that demonstrated the hard-line the Chinese were > willing to follow, and the most recent and 'liberal' offer of > unification to Taiwan, barely a week ago. The coming conflict of the > West with China comes via the West's conflict with Islamist Terrorism > and, with that war having just begun, the democratic face of America > will never be the same. > > One may well wonder, as Ed does, where this will all lead us to - as > the masses now will be made to follow even more blindly behind blind > leaders: > > >The tragedy now is compounded because we > >have the most uninformed people and government that we have > >had in many years. Just when we need leadership, we have > >people who will take advantage of the justified anger to > >further their own immediate political agenda. Meanwhile the > >rest of us will pay the price for our ignorance and our > >choice of leaders. We are now living in a true Greek > >Tragedy because no other consequence is possible - too many > >mistakes have been made, too many rules have been violated, > >too many people have become outraged. For an individual, > >the only defense is to stay out of the way of the train > >wreak, not an easy task. > > As the light at the end of the tunnel turns into a freight-train coming > our way, we see what reliance upon leaders, more than ever, has led us > and our civilization to. For, this is no longer about revolution or > barbarism: there are no revolutions left to do in the world; never was > any revolution further from occurring, and fascism, barbarism closer to > seizing the world. And it is not even any longer a question of > civilization and barbarism, for civilization, as we speak, is about to > yield to barbarism from within in order to fight barbarism from > without. It is about to become a question between forms of barbarism > or of fundamentalism, as if the entire planet had gone fascist or was > ready to become fascist. As if all options left on the table were > fascist: a soft fascism for Occidental civilization and a hard fascism > for the Islamic and Chinese worlds. > > We're afraid, no one can stay out of the way of this coming train, > because we are all aboard and no one can jump out. And only maniacs > are now at the controls. > > We fear that - "a new kind of State regime is now being devised which > won't require an October revolution or even a Chinese revolution, but > will produce the same result: the people will be controlled by every > available means" (Guattari). > > And we now know that - "Such a perfect democracy constructs its own > inconceivable foe, terrorism. Its wish is, after all, _to be judged by > its enemies rather than by its results_." (Debord) > > Lydia and Albert Hunt > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 11:58:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12912; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:58:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:58:03 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917143609.0385cd98 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:58:30 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Article about fission reactors and terrorism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"qQw5U.0.d93.wUafx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is something more to worry about. This is a left-wing magazine article about nuclear fission reactors and terrorism: http://thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=special&c=1&s=bivens_wtc_20010916 [Some quotes] Nuclear Safety, by Matt Bivens What happens if a suicide bomber drives a jumbo jet into one of America's 103 nuclear power reactors? What happens if a fire fed by thousands of tons of jet fuel roars through a reactor complex--or, worse, through the enormous and barely-protected containment pools of spent nuclear fuel found at every such plant? These questions are even more obvious and urgent than they may seem at first glance. Russian television reported on Wednesday: "Our [Russian] security services are warning the United States that what happened on Tuesday is just the beginning, and that the next target of the terrorists will be an American nuclear facility." [see www.nci.org] Meanwhile, eight years ago,in the wake of the 1993 World Trade Center bombings, the terrorists themselves wrote to The New York Times to warn that nuclear attack would follow. . . . . . . This week's events have changed the national landscape for nuclear power. For starters, they make the industry's gushy talk about the next-generation Pebble Bed Reactor--the reactor so safe it won't even need a containment building--seem ghastly and ridiculous. Terrorism also has implications for the Great Waste Debate. Our reactors have for 50 years been piling up vast quantities of highly radioactive spent nuclear fuel. . . . Do we ship it all to a central site like the one proposed for Yucca Mountain--and create a spectacular series of terrorist targets for years, turning trains and trucks of waste into what critics deride as "Mobile Chernobyl" Or do we keep waste in vast pools on site at reactor complexes--in buildings so frail that David Lochbaum, a nuclear engineer with the Union of Concerned Scientists, says they could be pierced "by a Cessna" . . . . . . as Lochbaum . . . noted, no one this week is calling his colleagues in the alternative energy sectors to ask about terrorist threats to windmills. . . . [End quotes] Cold fusion would fix the problem the same way windmills do. It would reduce the size and the maximum output of most generating machinery, and eliminate volatile fuel and most long-lived isotopes. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 12:37:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32316; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:37:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:37:26 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917151107.03844470 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:37:43 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Sen. Sam Nunn on terrorist use of nuclear weapons Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"aAfMw1.0.su7.r3bfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene Mallove quotes a WorldNetDaily report that bin Laden "definitely has nuclear weapons." If that is turns out to be a groundless rumor, it was irresponsible of them to print it. I somehow doubt bin Laden has several bombs, because I guess he would used one. His henchmen could do it safely, from a distance, without committing suicide. It would be cheaper, easier and faster than undergoing years of flight training. Perhaps they have one, but they hesitate to use it because they have moral qualms. I hope they would not go so far. A small bomb would be unimaginably worse than last week's attack. The numbers do not begin to describe the qualitative difference. The energy output alone from the smallest bomb would be 1,500 times larger than last week's attack (100 kTons versus 67 tons), and the temperature would be millions of degrees instead of thousands. Ex. Sen. Sam Nunn of Georgia made some thoughtful comments about this subject. See: http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opinion/terrorism/0916nunn.html Some quotes: The terrorists who planned and carried out the attacks of Sept. 11 showed there is no limit to the number of innocent lives they are willing to take. Their capacity for killing was restricted only by the power of their weapons. [I think this is an exaggeration. They may have their moral limits, too.] . . . Though we may not yet know with certainty which group sponsored these attacks, we do know that Osama bin Laden declared in 1998 that acquiring weapons of mass destruction is "a religious duty." This statement should not be taken lightly. We have had a look at the face of terrorist warfare in the 21st century, and it gives us little hope that if these groups gained control of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons they would hesitate to use them. . . . Ten years ago a communist empire broke apart. Its legacy: 30,000 nuclear warheads; more than 1,000 tons of highly enriched uranium; 150 tons of plutonium; 40,000 tons of chemical weapons; 4,500 tons of anthrax and tens of thousands of scientists who know how to make weapons and missiles but don't know how to feed their families. Russia's dysfunctional economy and eroded security systems have undercut controls on these weapons, materials and know-how and increased the risk that they may flow to hostile forces. Our nation understands from heart-shattering experience that America is targeted for terrorist attack. But we do not fully grasp how Russia's loose controls over weapons, materials and know-how dramatically increase our vulnerability to an attack with nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. In 1998, an employee at Russia's premier nuclear weapons laboratory was arrested for trying to sell documents on weapons design to agents of Iraq and Afghanistan. Just this year, a former bin Laden associate admitted to a federal grand jury his role in a plot to purchase uranium. . . . . . .Early this year, a distinguished bipartisan task force declared loose weapons, materials and know-how in Russia "the most urgent unmet national security threat to the United States," and called for a fourfold funding increase to reduce these threats. We need to reflect this sound advice in our budget priorities. Keeping weapons of mass destruction out of terrorists' hands is either a priority or an afterthought. If it is an afterthought, after what? . . . [End quotes] - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 13:06:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA15666; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:05:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:05:29 -0700 Message-ID: <016301c13fb4$09b032d0$6401a8c0 cs910664a> From: "Colin Quinney" To: Cc: Subject: Sunlight scrubs water Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:04:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/plain"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0160_01C13F92.82339C00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"DNg8A3.0.Wq3.9Ubfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0160_01C13F92.82339C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.nature.com/nsu/010913/010913-10.html Sunlight scrubs waterA pick'n'mix has produced new water-cleaning catalysts. 12 September 2001 PHILIP BALL New catalyst could make light work of water waste. © Corbis German chemists are purifying contaminated water with new photocatalysts that use sunlight to burn up organic pollutants1. Wilhelm Maier of the University of Saarlandes in Saarbrücken and colleagues have pinpointed several metal oxides that, when mixed with other metal compounds, absorb sunlight and use the energy to combine oxygen in air with carbon-based organic substances in water. This converts the organic compounds to carbon dioxide, just as if they were burnt in air. Many water supplies are contaminated with toxic organic substances such as bacteria from sewage, or carcinogens such as polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) and dioxins. Cheap, safe and environmentally friendly ways of detoxifying water are needed urgently. Some costly treatments purge contaminants using ozone or intense ultraviolet light. A promising alternative is the photocatalyst titanium dioxide (titania), which oxidizes organic compounds when stimulated by ultraviolet light. But as only about three per cent of sunlight is in the ultraviolet range, titania is not very efficient when triggered only by natural light. Maier's team suspected that the oxides of other metals might make better use of sunlight with a little help. Tungsten and tin oxides in particular share some of the properties that make titania a photocatalyst, but neither works alone. The researchers reasoned that a dash of some other 'dopant' substance, such as the chloride or nitrate salt of another metal, might convert the oxide into a visible-light photocatalyst. So they tried as many mixtures as they could, hoping that at least some would be effective. The team has developed a mechanized combinatorial process to pick out the promising materials from the non-starters quickly and cheaply. So far, they have made and tested over 200 photocatalysts. The robotic system examined the ability of titanium, tin and tungsten oxides doped with other metal salts to photo-oxidize chlorophenol, a good mimic of PCBs and dioxins. Several materials have emerged as good candidates for visible-light water decontamination - the researchers hope to improve these through further experimentation. References a.. Lettmann, C., Hinrichs, H. & Maier, W. Combinatorial discovery of new photocatalysts for water purification with visible light. Angewandte Chemie International Edition, 40, 3160 - 3164, (2001). © Nature News Service / Macmillan Magazines Ltd 2001 . Marsh spews bacteria onto beach 18 June 2001 . Bugs for toxic clean-up 30 November 2000 . Here comes the sun battery 8 October 1999 . Screens save protein-profile time 17 September 2001 . Hard cheese to the hot squeeze 17 September 2001 . Heart joins head in moral maze 14 September 2001 . In theory chips should stick 14 September 2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.280 / Virus Database: 147 - Release Date: 9/11/2001 ------=_NextPart_000_0160_01C13F92.82339C00 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="pollution_160.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www.nature.com/nsu/010913/images/pollution_160.jpg /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEBLAEsAAD/2wBDAAkGBgYHBgkHBwkOCQgJDhAMCQkMEBIPDw8PDxIVEBER EREQFRIVFhcWFRIcHB4eHBwnJiYmJyoqKioqKioqKir/2wBDAQoKCg8ODxcRERcZFBIUGR8dHR0d HyIfHx8fHyIlIiAgICAiJSQlIiIiJSQnJyUlJycqKikqKioqKioqKioqKir/wAARCADpAKoDAREA AhEBAxEB/8QAHAAAAgMBAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAwQBAgUGAAcI/8QARRAAAgECBAQDBgMGAwYFBQAA AQIDBBEABRIhEyIxQTJRYQYUI0JxgRWRoSQzUmKxwQdDchZTgqLR4TRjc5LwRJPS4vH/xAAZAQAD AQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAgMABAX/xAA1EQACAgEDAgMHAwQCAgMAAAAAAQIRIQMSMUFRImFxBBOB kaGx8DLB0UJS4fEUYgUVI4Ki/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwDn8vyWgjqIUZjHFCza4VF2cNsdj1DDrjnk 30LVjASSk4zmWnT3L3QEJBFZ77g3Gu27ad9WMvuMk1y+A2WzwGO8UPASVNYjsbabhUsT/D0CH88C Qya9BzMEeZhGDqbhX0EeOTUC1v0xKL6jSVWkAmljMIdieVlgiTe+q2zSX+5JwfsasWx7JYnjonza eC9PGxEFhZrWA1b/ACXwrVAvd6/f/IRpqt4JJquYIH5kQKBybaQD13axJwSbgm030YoM5ioJ04hb TESHjiTcHqF898PW5eof0v0Oc9uKK2bPJTkLq+OkapqHDnAKEaQT2/PDaL8ORtRZIooBFTUFdV0f vFImmN5XusV9XNZxbpbp54z5q6FefU6cZhLmkwNFD7nTUerlksgfV69NNh2wigicNJJO82OR/h8E TBG4tXMdKxQHWyXAuFtfYdcLNM0oSckv6er/ADqYuY5ZVZZPqenVYwxZjbdv/U3Nz3ucNVDrTqVp 2uxq0ftHOTw6kXjDCVacAWB06NShT+eDYuq3GSa/RWe4etrONK2ZOumnUNFl9reE2E9SzdFueRb/ AN8Zv6jwznoYdRSM8scfZGAMd7i58KD6XwOjGfKEqKK2YiGQiRCzyah/ul3/AF0kYO7w/ADjkFWf h3vVPWyCB6mTVLAOZTqvdmBDWP3G5+mGinVE56ivPC/LEKRaVXdvdzxam7X42pyo3YghL/pgv7FF xfcYFVQU8nCigE1YxtHEZCQt/llIFrktuvbucK1a8gp/QvnVXTCaGJ0fTJHw6lQ/zqb7gruQRb6Y KAYxEQ2NDNt6L/1w4p22ioVC2kRANqLRDfybT3tbt2wjZSKyF4TFRMq6JW2Chb3Q/OvezLgCGDSi XLqaQTsYoqVLPK+5YqbR2A3I1EXt3wXkKVGlkc89TRVKRxlmgisJZP3pmY+L+UslyB9MI8DJsOI6 haNoTZ4yoTjXFtSX69dmudz9cJaboO+nXVDFVLUVkUMbV7CChHDWkissSheW23M+nzOHTEkEnZYa PSksZg0+JzpCsx2v0OkefbCLkZ5WeRcLliJ71UyBlpuZ5mHXpzYOeCc55SXJLPAaGlly82mi/YHq NOplTeeEGPe4YEjfyvgbb59QuK1EnLjgyacVUiCKqlSWDX+wUkLckQL9CFG1z12698U2q7rIaV3g 18yygjl90edo0ACNLZYwdm5F2PmBhbfc5XrNeecm3k7+zmWZUZYnSAncTTkawyC9tt7dQfriio6o y3K+jK517TZLQVcaM3vEeZU+shudOIDbdkuUQg7+VsZjHGZpKKDImropkLqxhRYweJZidOl9+V79 +uEjnAJTp8Y7mlkb01IsdNWwa9GnVQRNZXPUAh+jK51d7jpgLm3lMp07NGrI2XzUVFxKmES0Urmn pow2swvzajcLqIPfGnJ7RKV2YdWsVKCokjhkaBRMm4lAdrs/c7ja2BY218mfNQpUyzVFPwKZVI4h J18M2HC07dgSGAsPXFLonQGqqa+CkXgVHBaodUgnYrrIHViUFkvvt9MZJGD00VNLA5cCZ2DJAf3J 1X5vi2UgHsTjWFLAtK9JU6BQ1bpLJpPxIidHD5bK69APM7nGByjMJye5153GzfM3BlNz9cPnsL4T t6JR+KQpUMsYkBMjaDZH0na172DD/vhGVV0ekr6kGFdOp1AHHkuEY30/APUr6sL+VsDzD5A8zgZ8 ojhoYUWZyj1RuRpcjfnHN3G2JQl4s/iHkvDgrQI2VxEjhRtcBNL2Z3BLEsG1bsLnfDamRdONDD+5 tFMiPpeZHjQC3JuLoSe4uB9MCDBKOTNShkaohYaeG4JThPbYDcyat+U4pZPb0BTq1RExMPDYoQt9 V1F7eLawI6Y10ZmfDl7xZXSmvZl5mjYje6h9uuwJ6b4N+Jh22rOmy5QJIsvI1rmZEVSAbGIndCe+ pRYjtbUMB9wxxgVlE9NPwI6TQ1KfjNq7rfwgWPXfbrgGC0HtDmlLrkeMVUMpBvq0lO1yN9sFpEJa KaXQzYljeCQ8qTNycJyfhvISW9Pp2tg0VCLT0bZklLW6A0aLCEc8Piugv2ulibm974WPF92NyJ52 7bJTaJqOExyBAAFKxNdw3rfodsFcgfD/ADg1aCnqBSSV1dLrKVDz5e5JklkiZrpsDr4e/c7dsTlK /Cu3yKxjXifAGaQy1F4lIjenSSGpDkyXd9AswtsBcW9MC7+dB44+Zm10jfiE+mUM8sdngFtaAMlh JcdTe+2+K7cErGYZ6RSGqFBilYLUCV20vw900xjUzbHftgZMFlfKBPBIYGs8gPFLiJRGP93Yvdeb bbBjYuG8B3loJGuYYJ6JGIlptMsk4I7AFtJAAG4U41BsXlzOgUTU9EYYWXllCUyjST4EbUjAkdxj U+pkZrZjOjFWqkDKbEe69D9qe2H+H1E2mzW1KU9M9NlsUkqIxCiW5lkC9eMBuIluNvzvhOpb+kpl ks08VNTNEEAaQ1FOAQIibhQjtfugYHe4xpYAsmp75T1FTUwACWnGrTUj+DSCqkd76bg9Qcc114uC 9dEKxU9KZFFTzyag3G6jWy2WPT9h37euDvcvKIdm1c2wmXrEkM8LxPIQS6y7buinVYE+I33xVI5Z TrnJH4VBDTiKRtTlNorAtpPi6WLD6YZk9LVcv6Wl3Mejr45KibTMXXZYyWusTNZQT2022HW2C1gd UOpT5nUZWsZgEUsFXN7xEXUKVSwtzdQXOFxfwH3eH4lky5hGY6yod3N1kdl06/8AzT5W7f8AfDKQ o7m+mZKPM0ZhUO3uldoCm08AA4jb76o7G18AMluWTOSkgMjTSF5RfZ7Ao3817/2w1i0NSrlj03Gh meAxEmVkXURbY6vt0witMLoZzXL6ILHVal1S6gDru72sFJB2Tc22/tgQkS3vdJMwxWrlsiivpv2h /wD6RF1RxobH4xJ5m2Fl/Pyxmt3HHf8Ag6FhZ5f5kFmMlNPVQ1VFUmolN1qAVIJtuoc22Cg20jBX aqD9TQgdpPZd6wx6ZaMaI5F8UyXLEbdlY6hhK/8Ak+/qG/D9vQy8opYqiemkjCk6dTLfVdNV9u/j TfFZuiaywi0lIa1mlQ3SRgr9QHk5nNrEi2yj6Y14BWQalqDL56W6OtVeF1PM0Wtr8OMfLcfqcUVM lK01SwGRXEcSmwCS6QZuVVIUXOpAWuLahp77YSx9vf8AUM0qMjJ75GtchOzzKttJvp5huTbqG3vj fQY3VrowoGkDboA1vtjl+AROqlqEqAYapfjnjLIj6JVjUfESQgm6v1sRt2x0UqyNb6BqN9C1D2UL CjRng308+x3bUz2v16Ylqt15sfTa3UZscKcFjUzcOI6I01HiAgDwqF6k73J6YPJm6FqtHqxFNAt1 CSNCCNAUK1gVUdL6fywyjWH1A59ug/BNLFItVLd4JRb3Zx/mMNN229Lg4nCVYY843lCFUi0s8VJH Ul2p+UQb6gLHU2o7gAWIxbkjLt3Hskpp6mnkFXomMyFTIdixbpxNrMu3U7jzN8SnqpcdB46P1H+B anillOtjJHqZeYLZdBOvupFrEY27t2BtwDXMpeK81MTEVJHX+trYMRGOZXUS18dZRVVNpldVcSar o8q/u2F/Pwn6jBfewpdDMndYDq9x4W2kuTZd+oYFiP0w4nArDM9MxqIlWR9IJuFYgsbX030gW2v3 9MMELPVR0eYNLMt2l1NTx6Q6rqF9ZOwFl8P64ntxQ+5HO14FXmARKlIKZG5lOq+pu733ZrnviyVI m8syJnnYCK7s2sxqRzNsdAIPcE4ILOgo5WGXvIp4rxSxU3CiJJ03uz7i2q46eRxNo2aNrJ44I3lr n+CEJGkADQFJ5NtuticTnfDG02unTkThr6WgzBPfYDOeKZIgpukqkACXsOUjvhquOA7u4SSJaieo rKaUtTPIyQK8nPGSpI4ka9bHoTho8ZAUjkhW8MMqyJTNdjbSW2sb+Vw1998Bc+puUamX1dLBTvHP MtQqnQhnAQb/ACchNyvXDMVR+IQJk9hauT/7SH9ShP641+gu+f8AYJ+5CanrTFGKOeYASCRQeGx0 lURx402JOk9dsI3ldS6XPQLl1NV0GXsaoSyNODopVsG4a2ChVPRrbt5dcT1HbpFNKNK2PZUpSonr KYNCZ7BVnjvCDfnAAtuWFyPPCXtQzVg8+WOEoOExtcy8FVQF382eyqo62wdOe7mkwTVGeq0pibjS KnUPw3aU2JANybL83TDZu10EtbfUBm9fTQw0zSxCpkUhePJ0hkhsvgGx2A5ScbY89AqS69ApnzGk j9/qpQylgKUgg8RiRfkA5bC+xF77Ylt3Y+ZbelkcoKuNzwzOiQSOXgd7k05fezjuC21htg5+PXzE kvkEpMkqJ5UgqCtIXmKBpPEu/ps63Nx6YruXQltY/XZb+G5w2XTyJUFSBHUUpUMSQSodD4WGnffB lGibnUdwGb8Nq0qZTK8VVddETd5LXNtXUP6bDBeHkVuTapeHuKTZLT0rfiEVhJDpkNjoZj2iLDs3 f0wu98d8DqHMuKMvPYKsSNWx0wlSpF1ZOU0zfKqXJXT/AKsVj27fUm0xGlyzI6+llknWSilh5mfp KwFg8B66t+ZGtcdNxh7aCqYxUZfBwJJXkMUqxErGtuKkh5I9XYgnf0OETyZxt2EymRqGjlpKULPW SRBF25fjAoNTjrJpFx+WM1bHTw11GaGgbK8pkpAOdyNCN/Gi7Cw/LCt2yU/Ck18fR/wK8Ay8JZRq SMlXbyZOdewuAW7Y1ml+nsN0cE1KjNG2lwvxVsADt1IOwH6/bAbKpirxSVBilqkSJFG00bKGdtW+ q19ZKnb0+mHWDfsP5dmVKupZ1hmkQlIteyRr8o4gBLdNyBcnEZp9LooqY/8A7SgbfiOUi3bg4Xxf 2s1LuESnkywwtK+mpkuY42UmMAC0krn02C33wi1HqX/asX/BRwUa7vp/IhVR0dSnFzCQkREzxSS7 FtfIwKnU9mvdex6dMVraqF3WwGY5pDl9PFWAG0ti77cVwDYiynSoS+o6fTfA92pi6j6fXsRXBpKO muA4WySTbuZQRfUH2s+/RvzwI89v2M26z/svTZTCo01evQRZ+Fp1HWOUN2Vu2M9UK0cFK+mhakqH oRBPXIBKxk+JEmk6JOEPmfoCfTbBjJ8OzbVz2+hhtmFfVPxKuSOoRSeJEsTxk6vERZlsfthklHjA WnI3ITlFPIvBdw9El0dgORdSjfcfxgYl4pfEduMXTNCCrgkoxK7NAWMmqSbYJGu4Yje4BvY/bA2v oCUwtRltNGI8xqneNzFo+H4JHlF9ZVbkHuDiq4o49SfvMfq+nArI3vMsV+IsCKiSDppDps4/mVl/ timovqUg79C1RUVlDUot1JGniNLY8ONRs4Ow+JhFQutpvuHpnlrZ5KOsj0KbOsYOhthuFvvzLfGv sLtcY7evQHxqfiskKn9lflkZQ1pVTk1KwYOGU9fvjStUxtPPhl+MSs8slLU1BSmrVJHC20unQNpX lsD22B8gcHd24GXCsLPl9Ka+ObTfVzWPw0iIGkOFA06dvzwVJtAnUctjBSj9zM5dpeEWKqTYr8y8 3fwn8xhG2S1ZNcC8pThjl+Id1RtJ0WO4FunMOnbGfBpforrhf5F4xTSsJn1zzqSNN7cve4Hn5+WH GfHNA9ERgmK9IWB4kcZcE3tbbqTft0xryIlJ+i/MlJcjaqqWiihl98lTqkTAgk7qzAjWdrjbp1wd 5XyFm9h8z1G2XU1vUPf78mF/5MP7vqN7uf8AajqamKqqTNUVqBZ+VHi1ksCo5eGb2CW3LDEOFXRf Ivdtgvg6r1MarTlkUMFWZ3DcoLOTe/Zb4Ep/FjKFeSReozSilkahphVVMotHMklKqxRxsnjEiDp6 YVQ68X5g3p9CVVkpCkETiM6Fv0XzIBW1tN+5641dSnHkZ+ZGWjH7HCKlQP2id5NDgL1ZY16g9L/f FI55+AkscGapkagjWoi4cYkvJTxjaNZFtGGZNyCTcN54tXnmiKddOoSiyyEsjx1h4LdphrsfLi23 tjakJPzHhqJeRpT0VCh94pl94d9PVN5WQaowAbDQTvc45oN1t4/YX3ilqyTX6f8A9Lv/ACHFFGGi qJA/EKaZQ7GQ6Xu9tSi1rrf9MVoSUkeq4mkpvdquXTT78GmckSm/h1ydI1/5rdsFSIab3JOv1JX2 X8kZdQZjTq9PEBArx8GKJieUxXe+tr64z0v98PLxUV0ni31HQ1EOHLNFFFUImmnqFbVoV/FGVa+o XFr/AC9cTnHsXhLuEqZeMqqZVFRDZklFzp6slgRzC67j7jCxhWRNV21Zn1lfHKIpNKvAzhZwitzT DwELsAbdW8hi1YIy0mv0uuyfdCNPPF70091HDJXgsOTUp1suu1jfpgNWqBtWJdxgx6qR0q9bqXaN 401iRWca11WuNNwO/wDXB20O1uoDQ0/xXaS6RLYyjayuu/hNjbbpgSbJuPS8DFZS0KRuxco1rM8m +riDSp8yx6kYjFPg01bTrpTM/wB20vr1jXH4WUWPIeoUenni6l9Qc+SZpUL1NDSCWOUBqtraN1lD HmUpfY/TbCSim8jwbi+T0vtHmgP7TUrShztI2/CA2vZd7fxHEXpLlK66LqFa7uu/LfQzXzXNi7Ex TsSd2EkVj6jmw1x/6/Ia5/8Ab5jVPUUD1jmNpviOBULHdwFI1azIAW77A3HrhWnWfqdDai7GhXV1 dNFTGMSUccUheeFY4xJMv8NraXZd7EgYO1JPvdgU7lXYpQxVkE/AnTUOUvsVf4hFg7X2A1DbAch0 glIJ5IZPd9aKt9M6qrpfppYsexBAbv8AXDPBlngX/Dp5amF8spY5JUVCeCrahovpsTbYWIO2G4WR LL1aT0tL70ynjSSIX4t1KFidMkY/ha22BF7rzXYMsV1KVK19Sfc8tgMNyNfRChX+Bdyv2U46FXV5 Od30Q5FSmnpVZNSJPs0xLayx+ZdYB0ei9Mcs+66YaDJPcu9X8B2GogChoaniOheRW8J1FQq3Hly9 LHoThPeNo2ppOEMu6vPl0KZblzV0Pv1dXCHSCscTvsSTpuysTc+Z7fXFUrxx+4k5NRjBcqk/Ly9R OozPi6opJAZ4rINJN7HYaQLkXuOovvjKVehacEo2uY/YDHFCYruXjMigwaY9Wvt66h62H54dtyXh z9xIvmE8Ovp0YSKOnkoppIo9aGyat+LaMjfUTcXv0/LGd9cENXV/T6jEDK9Jrp5ibAsBVqY5B5i8 m3pucB8/wdKeeeghJwpeWWJ4kKhWQWc8Xe933j0kb+mHoVRVUj1dPTwLHTQgQTxotmmBc2Hz2TSD bruNu2G8wON47GdHm0FQqSRRIbIf2qclUcq3NKAu42J+Y+mC1XJL9Trs8/cHBNUV+ZKgXhwLLzhw bGNl8fU8xaxNz6X2wKVX1NNv/wCvT+QaD3SaSTXxKlWdZBfa6dQp6E7g+X1xmsCXXyDSZwDSTu6C eGMCR0s+o3Ozc4vt3OB7vPIJJrh9SUkeSaVlYu9NJcINIBDLtbl3BB64R+fUaUaf3Ln2c4hMiqiq /MBpTYHfG96b3PmjQgqczeGUZUtJ+GhuHrEimSVexNiFUddsTlFdWzr3WmkRQSU7v705+EwaFpYv AQOZGePrqDDt2640ntXqb2fxpd0NLRSST2jmcQStEvD6oSnNcnqTbSDfyxlJdUM1JX2MX3uoeodp JolMt3SGFSov0OxI037gdTv1xRi6d4NHLeE9bDzOtY7KtOkbHWgW7LxNflbUPP7YTa+Cjl1N7Kc0 nzivhy7Mlji48T6KqIaS25kMLjwarcwH1xz6mn1j6/6GjLZn4G1kPs9kOTwirNMNZ3Wqn1cSz7hV 6m/03OOaHtmrrSqWV2/0DU04wfh/n7mL7UCihr6Chq4JYg5aWmnZ9JDeTKSWQNfkLd9sdWnpyipU /F1I6+tTjqVujlSS7d/gY0skogeeNBHwVcVGpb3F9iQPCe339MGOjuB/yNsdqqUVw3/a+GYdLWfi M0dQ6CWrqCisI9R0qo5eXwoAeu/ri21xtdB4zhJ4/G+X6mzUZSffMuqY3ggrHmiM9QJYw/WxR0v1 NhY4XRjLO69vYHtWrCMXXbIOJIJrzvM5BeZpKPUZH0hiNMbHT09Om+KxivkcceOcwWPNf5H1rgKe ULDpZkgeJ73WSPQwtfuBqC+mNJ3yc/tGusUuj+DEaciqWooeJxZKlF4Mctxrcbyxs/Tc+DB6+g2l rXb6cP4dTOpmy+GrljNKFLRm9NDLKqCBfF/xE9Ad74d3Xd9zsWJeXqaFLn9bUQfGkjMC6ROjxiRy OvDWRwW/PrjOJRTvLPSy0kkkklbTRS0a6OG1M7RGIDwqIDdAb7EAWthEq4x+dwyWe69f2CtSZWYx GkstJFIZAfhiUNqseZgwGkHphjOF9UUGWUDVT0vvdNNUcO6uGZCWXl1cyD5dvtjSeMEnDIl/s5XS ya6aKN5D88c0RBRzpYSJruPpb9cFNgcceZr5P7KQyVUrZjLLI9IwiaCnssh0gX1O1iw9VGDS6jUb /B9nF5fdBtturk/fmwvu49kH5nzaF6iAUcgX3imq2SJIgNDyA3aMMgtp1byGwtbSMVkunUju6XRu ZWsMEda4hMGm8jp0LcJQdIG+zdPXHPqq6Xcb2W4tu75CUFAsfvmYS8QVOoqu/wAIawHSTT06cv8A /cTbtYa/c7F3f+CoyiajnhipX4dbADMoc/D38mHhA8jjac7Tb4ujTXFdrNZ56muIqpBEJKYO8lTZ dehUJ0Nb5r7gr22OFUI6f6X4e3Zib5ONvn9jK3io6WKTWTMoDNIpVi19m28IAv5ffD/ZflDSltV5 7jcntlnUFfwZvd6laYFInm4oYAjl0IpCgDuxwsfZ13foS99uXhX6uROqzfMc2mWszGoiWrs0bcCP 4SKnhAVnux746VjPNiOTpYWC9HJJxdCypLOFuDqUtJty8QW6MAQfQ27XwnBzTio+JY7r8+ZkV1Lm slHNFGnw3SP3iPSFCXG6sykF9NrDFdywM1Sq6Zn5Xk0ktRTnjRwVKvrandnBLdnhZmKt6g2tjTnX THdE5bliV0zozT8SactN7u52ljdGHC1dQLDUFeSzX6YipV5p/iI6Mtit5xT9OhVI6iWQUzniTwRy R8GPr4gx2+q7D1xn96Ia1qTSWMeonNKpyyRmpm94on4tGRqu9jZr9hpYXFsURf2aMoxwsN1+eQee mjqo6mun5GlS9RGgOoNpu5bTewbSGA36np1w6OrSg1aeP4BSzU0AMjyBYoQTBFJpAJ25udrd76jf GLL7CPvOW09cigqxk0IjDVLJIzkbbKkf3ttjcolpyjudZOniy2slo1Y0wjTYqKlVWwP8pDtcA/Lh KOhvGTRWhjpUBWjklql5gNCCL0tvqA+/2w1YM5Xyv5G6RqGTkkpFgkvyiwI8j9LHbCtM1oXzOKSm PGhleNh4kPP/AMj6hb1GMqM2If7Q5qNtVIfrE1/0bDimVQyyz5yZ+PNFLmI4i08sWkA2u2g9tSqR bt0xJ2+nBHVjFtO/xhXWoopFp6qbRNVSMWvuoROnh2AHXfviU25fA69HTUVfd9Ss3tDXMmmOG0VO DNJxDqIV7JFqHRdRH2GFjpJfEo59OyFqqOWCl42YK3HmUTVC80jCGRrRKeytMRdVA8Ivi+14Xy/k l7yKWfz0EnrJeIU97ZI578M8NnVWQ6ywSykhAN7He9sZRRPcnFxTwhzKVolZquXMp6ipYrxeGXCo 2i+rTc+IN4WGxxWUfIjOba6tMdzDKa5Zo+Gxilbkj5gSNHgY+g7998Tg1QkJ9E8L5fMUTK6umqqi asVzwotFPUSqqkk/OAOgUXtffDdCy4vmkaOXQ0NGkrQRyVNXONXGkKh10KdiB0Fvl674lO5cPgVR tVwua5Mt6Khnp4s24yLHvBUIQWMbMNdj/wC7pbrinryiMXS9H9P8Fcryyr9yOY15WPSTBTRWSQyt 8z+QVRuD3wZtIHtHtG1qhsZlmnvSQyl5aNSBC0gJtTqgLu7eWs6QD6WwkV/kTTcrTXx/gTopJXnf j6kj4+qR72McaL2brueo9Rg9PgM1Jy5w19UUmp6mmUw1l3rjIfhu20RflRFUnfbmw1/yO06W7nn0 BR1ErjMIpVWSPhsopYAzu7LtqUfc/fDRXBTTkq6fAey32BrKysTMq53potOngnRxCu/IUubX64N9 BtnmdZlns9kuSzCUU7rUaeWeYXYA9SD8t/TC54DCMYLBozVFOLtAuzfvH+b733thRhGpnqjrZGtL pvr6Ky9LE9r4ZIGDGqa2UThXbTe+kj5ZugVv5W6flhlE275C0udKy8KdWu4LXU76k2JU+dtyO/Tr gbaCZwo6xxrjoXlRt0kE0ShgejAFri+NuQdjD5rmcdIFeCKeRUKNE/Mtyxst7jX1O4xCCl1G1IxS 8PIk9RF7yeNLeOl+DV1Grbi3DSD+YAk3UdcMrq/kM0vlyTmL1E8kuqwy01HxJowiNUsuwUMdOroe 23XCRkr86GcXnsVm/EJhTwwzPS+7GSsqVQ33dNAu+4YoF074dzq2+uEcOrFvlYq+9ZDZNlGe1lK3 tPUV8EUdLKUh4r8NyUAU2UADTuPUkHzxR7UqZSKf9OPzuMQUv4dl3vqOZmd7xSKTpElixIuBqIG4 29cSvdKgbYvwr4kT+0NVGqaULVTXjpJE03pw63cv11Me/wDbDxj8hFpfJ9Buaaq944lTFLrm+LTr uLMirqZPK3Xv5WxnTXkVtVgFKjxUxmEnFkl0RTOwAXRYuuoW1Dflv/TAXlwQjxfRtr4A6XM6WaOn helLwVMjU1UzWWWMltw9rcTrdG64eS69hNSoLdxWGv3C1wipT+CJ4aZBolvZCJCWGnudlHXEJ8X1 JayuMesnchOCoqaysjjESpHMV4uxGvTui336DmN9hilUvQ6NOMm74XT92dUKCkannFOl6mQgKxfl JUWQ7+ne2+174hGfVnTp6LfrYvD7G5fI6T5vqq54zqi0kx6f9RW2v72w3vuh0x9jXM8v9h+oyvLI VYQwmJTzGSFtG4H13t64MZPvZvdRguNvYz6imzWlU1FNUvVRWASEfvB9vC2/bFVJdceZNxZf/aiI TNRCYSOqjjFTdC42ZFvvcd8NXUn5I9JV04T3mCUahuYugKt5f38sBugxhZn1vtLTLRiPSTuV4l7G M/wkfMO+GQNpytdm8skjSSHmU6JT069DhgHp6vj0a1EY0zRyHjxqejD/ADF/kk/Q/XG5HSOekqox IwsOp+bBEOxNPmdJ7QRUOZxVFOZlEsU0moIOc8OQpf5W6/kcc9pxx6DabTlY0MiQD3ad+BwpjxhT sJDym/FO2kO5JYjywk5Z79i8Y49RfN8spcwzusC1Ke5hyrBrklnJ1AWFgP6Drg3RqNajioxlI/CR JUcJpOLpTVZkAUhmAG5Xax6455O5bZtZpgfhcXHu0JZjUS0MtPmM0XFWiETxUs6fAjdxphqmj2Us L6SP4gGx1aE7XGeCGpp7ZO34X4ku3+hgvBNlEchkYVVdxZjI6/Dc0uzNp6LxTe3+nDpUwYefqKwQ VVTVQVDCCUIy1NmUqE0Gy9rMzbp1xm6RlGzdlqRx2dnVvfFbhKw2je+ltGohgAP4dsc8cLsRWknF TjhmQK2V52qZUHuuniwFmCPGkb6JIwOum5uV3B698XSaiK92mq/V9/8AJTNZoJq2FaaYTVVARVmO NbLIrbamGwDpt9sFZXqTlerFqvz+QLEyztMhUSU85SfU3MBDuha/KVCvq8zhZJ18BpaTlx/SqA5j mYyKkdqOmaenRzLNLISE1zNcJsLhdK3A9cZrc/M7YxpZzSOazH23zukvTUeilM8avU6RrYM/Mqgv e2hWAFsXWhH1FftMlxUTQ9mv8Us0pW93zn9qgewFQLLIh6b9iuJavsqeY4ZXR9ra/Xx3Po7ZjFLF xEkEkJtz7MLn6bHHB9z0DNq51gu8TaGXdkB7YrpyyS1dPw4/0ctmlvxZZ6YBhVIXWJjZTKnXcdLj t0x16UvD6HHqwqXqLVNQabg21xmTmQXDBW6NFqP0xR5JrDEamtBMsan4ciavoV/7HASNZmVdZqV7 ncxrv/T+mDQLLLUVcctOlIAZrcZi3hAf/eX20afFhkhb6jhzT2EJOuKv1fNw1h0X/k182nyvvjVP yBcP+x9ezf2R9+gqaziyPKh4iO5uWCrvY7sPt1x4WlrbfRnpzp0uDmaN6YMvDqUGkA6hcr52C3vb buR9Md1eRBv4l0goDWRGWlXVIze7sTaRr7m8Q5jv1PQ4F9FkD4t4NePO5suSM6I1o47tFGsYUEnm uoj5dh82k388QekpX3+YNyWTNqJ466eSYxSlGskk+yqtzrXlYXsCL288Ugtq/YXWd07dfnJ6KmyC OuhFFqJqIzqSQyMWZT8VNBuBe97Yo5T9BEluXG2uQ82bSF2SmCUqxIOBpiHQDhgFXOnrtthfr3En PxJKvxCdY8hjAhaIsjJA85blQOebc7Eg7C3XFIUyXvE1HHDMuuSjFF7tKSzxaxFo2a0hViuk9joB 9OmOhN/AdroQKB6LMV+K0DzmJ3JdWYyKLsgQIPHp37b74XkGN26xqnlWozGo94iEdI9zHTJZZdbn mubX1N1ufp02wn3H22/+vY532inmzmrOWUbcKnmkDbtsVjOi2kbcq/Md8Pp4y8lp5VLBx2aScXMK qUeEysF+g2H6Y60cbFSdrYILOiyX21q8vpUoqhTPTx7REGzIu/KOx388Q1PZ1J2uTp0vanFbXwPU vtPJmc8FPEpgl1E85HD36XY2xN6O3LyUWu5cYNernysUre6V4nzGIh0oIOfm8LKH6dDvY4RJ9VSG ck1jLQnmcaU1MDVRtHUFdUav4xa9mv3visXfBKSOZqqwjY8odb3O1wcVSJstR0DVr8ziNDbmfbe3 QKN2thXKikIbmdqtHDJABDFpjYfFW/M+wHMO/wBjbHDq6j6HpaOkksiR9nMpv/4CQ+vD/wD2xP3u t/cx/c6H9qOuzn22rGy2WjSMU9bUqY45S+hVHQyC/ljm0fZrnzcULqPbG/kcnNUU2T0S0yyPLVoG 5nFruBd30HqSCLXx6mWzzeDQpcpzOGlp/aKYzUw4QnindgZGMQDMw6she362AwsZq3FVaYmppxlT lu/kjOswlzF6euoBw5HiAraS1lja95QBbbSxDIBvvjKNY8+QRTyvl6C/4kBRx10MrtUgmnls1hFK N7ntZ4zf0IIxnGm0NVrHy8ycyzIVdFSwqkwWohE0KCRudqe4lDWIYMV6HyGDFZfFoWMMJdC9DnGW ilmZ31OVcU/CUrZBZXuTe9iD9cTlCV4Rtnx6COZVTzwxTDQVqZWdpByrBHGmhDp6goQevXF4RoCh Ua6G1PeWSXMhGjUyRU1TTMzaRKdMciM38C6ks35DAulXWx6v5CmY5itPmKhUt7tTrMal/l2bQsS9 N7k779zjQTa9WaeGq6F45FjpxURraZkLxxg6golbTE7d72a+/rhV17IYysmkRMwrMyEQkpWtQUEj Gw4lQyqhXzYINTDthp9FdPl/AC6t+hx1TA0Zl7hZGW/qptYjtfHUmQfkWpcslqqqKLUI0mGoTN4b d7edsLq6q047uR9LQepKuPM1JfZapjlVFXe2zdUceYPrjiXtqa/LO9+w08A/c48uM0M37yRAeH1s L7fn2xWOo9SmuLJvSWla8uBzIY8wop5p/d+qlYkY2PEI5eUb/njarTrP+gaVq/p6hly+rrGZ5hMW bdnPiL9dh+lsGU6whIQ3clpaKJptodWkKSkg7uex9MJLUxyWjDPAtTQNr4ho9HfXvcrbt/XAk8c2 GKzdGvDmVPSoiyySxSX5gwIGm21r7Yl43wy1xXKPH2gkBIGu30GG26vdCb4dmK0ommzemhqkkqsy aPWaUDU6L4ki0jZSbDbtqJOKxSjHGI3z3OaU3J+L9TR9NyT/AAijky5J/bOrJkkBb3CnK6EL7ktI wYk725bL9cXpLxPBzbm8LJwecxxao40r5KmLLWMAEZkamGl2UMBJYki27efS4xzRW2Tx+rPmdVbo p/24MdKxqaJowzCQMzTA7huJs4H/AAgb+uL14iSxnufSPZH2AyvO8sR8xkkgq6wCbTHJeMqVXSeE 4+Zd9zjl1dSUdWMcbWrv4jJ+By86Z0Mn+DWRWoeFVVEc9Fa1WCrOyjoh1XATc3AG/c4o9Rxk1WH+ WQ338Dm88/wnyjJoA8GYSuivxHpXNnVA2oCLQNNtZ+fb8sB6z60mFyX5wchBRJG6DMnjpqb97FRy W48jLe/KbWjQ3PMN/K2K32579CqV56MNmC+9cCljISJ4VUIPCpp9ZP1Fu5xtNdepn9AeYzq+aIpb XBFcBbdLrbnI8TNe/kMZLwmfJnyTqhjSXXIlXqmqBGdL8JLrEobsrWdr+RwWsYwBci+V+0HGzxK+ p0QUOVK82X0EP7pJADwVRD1Osgsx698LLT2xpZlLlhjLc88LhCCiWorJayeNVSqHxuWy8Zt2IHnc X/pgt4pdA6arnhnUZRl0lB7O+9pGuqpmPC1LckeHYG9r97dcNLSWpHxBhqvTl4ToczrDkns3JUTQ QNKNEdPGx1JxJNiwU9l6288efL/xfi3bnX1Ov/2FqqpnzZJoI9TtGwrGOppy7XJtubWOO6sV0OJv N9QlHWskhmjlKn5bMd/O+oDCyheB4zrJK5hMh1CWUpGblgfCb9QdsNt9Bd3qVqc4ql4dpvMAEXI7 G+EWjF3go9aSrJ5c3zCK7xTFbWKtbZbfXtge6j2D76Xcmt9oa6qRTWS8fXvuBYL2NrdcNH2eMeMC S9ok+ciPvEH/AJn5r/8AjimxCe8Z0dHSB6mXMsxrnopYW4tbm1JewYEMBY21zMTsE++wwMVtWV2M 1ty+TSzzMvbr2gVUoJp5coiT9ncO7MVbfXUPa7SN5LsO2F36ceefMbZPy+wrDk+ZoH95p6hJTTwh TIvC+JxAz24nLyjxHEJaqbj1VvjtRZRpN30X3HKbKSpJqY4ZXi2XRzoR5NK2lNQ8he+C9TAOHTx9 /kdt7HZotHn8VJXzPHLIiilUo4DpGDpVSyjl0t+Yxz+0SbUZP+gzjhpdT6lJVwpDxSbr6b46f+Qp xs4NjujmM0zqdKyQLqFKy+EDq6rqVXb5de+3XHHPXUfCdGn7Nv8A8Hyeu/CvZz2qzNan47PNHVQO 8Inj4NTFqPD1ajp1XX6Y7c6kV2rpjKK6MtOGGuOPIUnzrLcwmndKc0Tf5VroulhzKI1vZmO/9emM oOK5GuMnaQGmharlSCRbRMHEKod1kYbMPPQt73wdyWQPtQnVJHJVSPEFMdlRdW50LyhbC21sJLV6 8loezT6rajLkyyUORSdup0/kcMtdf1Al7HL+lhqanzJ5YqCpXRUTMI497h7mxuvph6jJ+Hgg90MS 5PoVUtGuZUOVxm1PQR39AI1vf88dzXC7HInh+ZzXtRVrUZY8kyPKjyoFANiALm4+l8TndYGjXazj ZIyiXicTQgbEX1Rgnup3/LElnnDGfllFafY6up/iPX0wWZBL6SZCu9gSRff74UIV54GC/Cs0W7v1 Z79x2vhaYzlfTgBekWb4tReMczLbe/ZSRsPXDZ7C3RTSzStI5Vi250nbfoN/LDMCJ4P/AM3xrNg/ QPsrQ+x65VTS1/u1RXi7sJVFoy3ZEcACw6m18eJq6snJqO5JHVqaepfk+xuy+1FDHL7jQCOapUWS mVgvTt02sN7Gxwig/wCon7lsFUvVzQyvUM0yFTeEcqkdwdi2k43vOkVXnyOvZleZP7HFj2ioIsxo s0XJKcrTtoJKNdV6KY77cQY69Lem92cFJ6MEqg+fmZee51NnGYTZrUSOwhbVDAP8sDwpGP4v74tt vnlmtQjUehg1VV7Qirlly9+HI4QtUtLdiQOqjc3v1O2DUKyvkgPc+3xNKihzJAJHrKionsSzmZmQ 6hzd7fnhGvSvQEdvTn1BNFHJUPNKFllOzM5vdR0Xfy7WxaMZVfQVyXHUCtHTuto4CDfxjrfzDdxg yfxMvkM5VVVeU09RW0YZGBWIMFVwS57366QN+nXvhZRUnxwaMqXLY9J7YPWlIsxyWnrQ19Escelz /qZewwsdFdB1qzj3r1MiXIPanMJJJKbKhlMDc2qVm1dNhHxDi+l7E1zbruS1fbG+tenJq+y3+HWd U+ZR5nWqZdILavGzG3ym588dcNBr0OOWrY7UZbNqzKpljKSOeCtzZgrdTY4eQqZy+e0qtSx0sJ1O h8Fx9za/kMc2rKkX01bOaNCuhn1D4Z3sSfqRa5OI7/qPs+gdqGNSqtL47MGIsN/pcnAUh3E81CFQ N1BJBfotx2Xz2w24G0W4BIXTa+/UA9/obYNi8h0kmjAXQGHU8th+gGBd9Q8dCvDMm7kEjzGxwLNZ PP8A7n/kxr8w0+30O8MksZWNSjJEx4RivfT1BYt39BiUYL5l28jns7mVNlVfV1+YORx11BlFwzbk 2Cgdf64TUg5JUgqaXLwWqf8AEyukT9jo0hEoKft0ix7t4SqC7kjy74WPsX9z+QktdV4VkxqRFk93 MVbeRdveuE7IV6u2/Qsdhi0oJ3cWviCOo41lfIP+HNOeTjcMXtPpihC3Jufinbr104ZS29vuK/F3 +wzSxZWlQEiLVc+krYMSm3fUoW9uuxthZuXkgxhHzYnLWNpvHDxV6RyHZdXW+nYKB5nc4ZRzyCU0 lwgCwOkojiJnme7oiLqOs73kceXku3rh9vy8xN3zM0V8Akkik1SsQUksDwtd7kAA21E+WNJXwKOr mOWJxqKreYLRKQ0NPpNpX8evzVOm3fDacItvdi+PM0puKqPTkHl9Px64wR06U4C8RHqZC7PbfYqQ L4q4KGZUku/7E7lPEc2dRlk1FQRtLmJRKfx6C7G29jZOY6r+WK6etpPiSoWelqRw1krnXttFGggy QSQDZjKeXY91G98JP2hf0fMMdL+45+orKismD1dQ1Q7Ls0x1G3bbb745XJyw2dCguiAsY14p5VLn mK9WXroHpiErdeXcslX+Bcwsqs0AGlRrkNwBY9fMkgG9sa7A/wAsQ9zmDe6yvGFHxS5tYRncbj5j 104p50xPVr/H8lqmSjf3eJ5dNPFq06LHdjc7fkMaMWrfVmck6XQFIaGIq8BdxbSG02P/AEwcvDoz SWVZVDTL8TSS/qMZ3x0ES6hGlGpXjjKHqR0vhQtMt+IVv8L/AJjA93DyH95qeZuSVc/HTgzcSLSb hQNAF/Eo5S5HqQPriyjfKr7kZRXdy+wU097mRLG13mcjp0Gkcqr+eHuMfMA1SUtJHlstW+o8NogZ UQOxD6hfVtq6AbbD1xOUm5V/gCdSryPU8VLNraDmIPNJOzMFFtx8q3+gOFcq6FlEI0myyzmSSMWK cTSm38o8dreS/XAy8GuifdqqOKWqFT7vTRa9MlgxZWOorp23a/1xvCsUDxPngBDCayYGGmMhiF4V mm5De9iY2IBb0ud8Fyd0sen8gjFC+YZ5mM9NwFkhgTZeDEOEWHRrlrb/AMoOEjHPf1HldYEUWOKI pKUWqiHw9Pw1W5I5r91G4xQRefJnCKmjZTwEMltQaN5UI++og/bB3WJtrISFsqWXi1FAsncKZGsS fMLth1OlnJmlYWnqFhljWOAIzNcAuzqzE9dfTf6Ym6eew0cY6sYramGOV6yrf3iRuZFjsUUg+jHb yvjXfHA/HOWBkzaR1MWvlPMb2BG97gHTby9cLzwhq7vkmTO6YUYRaGKea9uM/bfqLnqPphHC+tDb mvMAuaQUtVEtREJ2S7yhQpRSwGgLcDcDvbBUbvzxkm210ToTSemnY+8qXQq3IqxBtXW5LJfti1UK vF8gLTU+wpoIol7kXLf839sZ+ZolI7AeX06YVjB4tA3bUfLy/TCSspGiTb/Lvf64y8wPyLfF9fzG BgNs6+9Q78SnVXtfiyyPqaPt0QBRiz7fREF9hhssjj4byOxmqVvFDGBxGPc6pNT28+n54Vyry7j7 Pi+h4Ub0tPMjSfFqNKOkZu7CNtSrztygE38/zxlOFgcGumSEopYFNU8ojSPxyu2uX/Sg7E+mBKab o0YtZ4omljilDxrLHLWSfuohzav5HvclvQm2CpShlLpyFxjLH0MdZa6KdWq6hxI0hSJCDpBjbmTe 42Pa2Fk047cf7DBU+uAWcRmlaDMCJXqagt8KdPCRbnVR2ANh64MdtbI8LkR7nK3yzMM1S/DlYDWo 5eSzKT5Md7euG4M+i8gkBldGEqFiwu0qMVa/nzXW/wBcK2Hb25JkhSCLVC3Ej/n+X8idJwtqXkxk qQstNpk/eAAm4+f9QMNZLUXwGTGsVOryzrTsralNiWk9FRdx6Y1PngeIrNW+8Rze7LdIyNaNbiaX Nr7blb7deXbA4pFH9TNZYkBESatVzJIWuVJ7Bv64fLE4PUqrFJqMayL88bkj/wCN5HBkxVENWxpL USTQMSk3Owb5W6FSfmt6YEHSS7DTVttdSkK/G2/y0a32Uj++DLj1YI8+iIWM7bffDNiJDYiTqTv6 YjZekXSNW7BT698Y1EiMbct8ANFuCvp/7cYNflH08QxmATzQPDsTJwwA1k31TDb7E4RTlf6kL4ex lV2e/htMJ3aOKpmf4MMI4kxv8rNY2v207/XGxPu/sC2vL7mI9fTpO1VIDLKnNNHGtkB/h1Pbp6A/ XBV1XAWl6ieZ5jLUUQq45JYJwb0kLOHWRPCxXYc6+fbFljHzZNq8/IyRUVDVb1st+VgsKqSCdxa1 rX23ONSqvmF8/Y1zn9fl9Q1cjR1HwdE3FXWGaQ+LQb6XAXY9/XElCMsNU7GljK6AcxqamrpEdah3 ZGkB5ySBytp/W49PXBjGnlC7rERqCKCxLeR/pirE6hIyxgaMm1hqIvtc8t/rhWA9Si2plc61FrDv 6HzGBRTdQZ4KksrwU5j2320i/wDxWGN8RZMH7jUOHZpYwnax12kHTZdW2AykYrkQ/YlDK0zFH8Rh js1x/qI2v1GGQrBxpRxM4qdbIp5UjOkv5duUfXDJ2BqiVrrG0YSCOxXQi32b+ItcsfXGlGwKVA4v CU3J9MFmQ1TRkJIWjNiNNz64nLlFI8MKIkBAAvggCaNhba+AHBZbr8uBQbGBGD162xgk8H0OAY0v xJKeo90SqXmU/urypHbfU7HVfyscB08ipUZ70tXVVRqKtlggiXhGQECSSNdxc7M7m+yi3rtg70sR zn8+APd9XgyM0rRUu8RLKsZ/cDzHd27nz/TFYRrP1Fk7x9A1BVxy06UdQLGR+IjAgDiDZfW7dCe+ M4xWcmUnVYHK6amYxcPSrU1ozACeU+LUunYqQbsSb3xOC+vxsaVGa1RcakUIWThyC17gNqXriuzv 3tCKQVJF0Mq2jZgD/L3H22OFaz3GXyJOtTEJAdYIuT/D/fGTJ5vJ6nN5XUm4YXb7HBZmhlJp6WLh xznSWuyIdP8AS2FpMxWCQTSohLAsd5OpsN8aWEFA2qIXPh0s+8beJkb07C42xto9mUXbtt/X9MNQ LZQBsEUuImbp+mNZto/TUzowN7HsRhGx1EbEDysUVrkeJjgIZjYookNy1vrjAPTe6bAHBATHFFfU 1tPqcLY9Bqh6e/whYG1jhaYx73iAbcO/rhaDZy9HJJQVBngNpLFL9rMLEWx1PxI5uPUJPU1VREEY 20+Xf/p9sFJIHJQwARmRej9PP74FjUFpUMCrKy3f/JQ9+xb6YV5wFYLuZJI2DqOJbe2x03v+Qxlg zz6i2oadI6YYULbUE/XACXEx08MjWnyqe308sCjfYahj4DtKDq0jdT2PWxGBYaoCqlpTt4sMKXK6 Ir6rN6YxsizdfL0xglZURudRYnqMAIOKHiOAdhjGo1Y/dYto0Fx5nCUylpcBDIvDLldh5YNCt2LL VSBQqbDrggsJ72x3bCjEiaNQdd/ywKDdE8YlJDbYdMHaDeBMhsbkm2CCwd/5f64ILENVjbDCB4il 7W+uBkdUFLJuiqdN8LkbB57Bda7t0JwUBggWuGvZuxwwlFI17YFhoYEZ4d8Cw0ehUicaRqPyrg2a gtow7hW1HS1z5m2MDqUj1BgR9dsYUtO50W8zghFZmGvpt5YxiYj+m+MAKQpufDvgBIFuuAMHScKN 773/AFwDA3NtP0xglL7gFTueuMZBS2qwwBjxk0pyi4PXBAeDWHh/PGB8Cbp5j88AbAiUN+mKEgiB gfpjGCStclv1wA2S0imDbueuNRmwQYA2OCCyr3B274ILJWRgLdsCjBVOhWHzSd/TAHsqF0v9MEU8 NrW2xjBdWpd+o3wA0Wm0MquOvzHAFBopJ2IHnjBRW3n0wBwmgaRv9sYxawNt+uFoZMvpTQR1Fx/0 xsmwVYDD0JZKoNd/yxqC2edQblBpYYwCpXYHvgWGiLP54xqYAmyWPW4w5M90Nu+CYk+ot6YxiIlY o23fAZiltzjWGgjg2v5YWzKJDKARffBsNFl6dPTGCiz21E+gvgBPMORb9MYBdFXbBMeKgSFR4TgM xaEJHMHmGqPoRjGKWAJ8j0wAkgXOym2CAnfSlsAJZRyPfuP74wArLe23XDAoGFs398YxfhDi2uSp tzYAT0iqsjC4O/L54AbBb+WMLYvIN/XDilSVFj1PTBMWZWQhr3PbAFJubBux2wQkpc3Ki4vhaHTC ArwVBHh+b0wKNZWRBp1A3J6L5YwSBGo6NfBAWCa/TtfACeZNNlJv5YwCydcYJMms7ncjGASEUi5P 5YwSGBk2XGNRcMVQWaxFwRjGB3IjUWv3OMA8nXz2xgoOxN0sQOmAGzxY6bnfzxjFl+IdxvjAsvEI 1cyOgIZrEX9NsMKW4a/xj88Axmy/vcEwCTrhhQ0nhT74AUX/AMqH6/2xjE0/gP0wQlH/AHX5YBi0 fTAYUSeq4IESeuAEmfqMACPL4kxkPIKfnwAEJ+7xhj0fiP2xgMXn8ZwUIwzfuB9MALKL1P0wUYOv hXG6m6FH+bBYEEo+mFYyCS/+Gb/1h/TBQJi2CA//2Q== ------=_NextPart_000_0160_01C13F92.82339C00 Content-Type: image/gif; name="spacer_trans.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www.nature.com/nsu/slices/spacer_trans.gif R0lGODlhAQABAJEAAAAAAP///////wAAACH5BAEAAAIALAAAAAABAAEAAAICVAEAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0160_01C13F92.82339C00 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="nav_relstories.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www.nature.com/nsu/slices/nav_relstories.jpg /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgAAZABkAAD/7AARRHVja3kAAQAEAAAAUAAA/+4ADkFkb2JlAGTAAAAAAf/b AIQAAgICAgICAgICAgMCAgIDBAMCAgMEBQQEBAQEBQYFBQUFBQUGBgcHCAcHBgkJCgoJCQwMDAwM DAwMDAwMDAwMDAEDAwMFBAUJBgYJDQsJCw0PDg4ODg8PDAwMDAwPDwwMDAwMDA8MDAwMDAwMDAwM DAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwM/8AAEQgADwCMAwERAAIRAQMRAf/EAJcAAAEFAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAADBQYHCAQBAQACAwEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAABQIDBAEGBwgQAAAGAQIFAwQCAwEAAAAAAAECAwQF BgcREgATFBUIISIWltYXVzEjQTIzYhEAAgECBAQCBwYGAwAAAAAAAQIREgMAITEEQSITBTIGUWGB QpJT03GRoSOTFPCxwWIzFdHhwv/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8A2Px8Nx+k8HBgwcGDBwYMHBgxmnPXk5Vc ASVUi7DW5qwObck5UjixBUDiBmxkybDFVUIIicyoAG0B4cdr7Nc36syMAFiZnjhB3nzBa7WyK6sx eYpjhHpPrxVk75106FSiGYY9szy0uIleZslX0QbrQzZAVNxHRlzEHmimmCmwC/6mL67h0422vLN1 5PUULMA58x9UcOGF17zjZthR0nL0lmXIFAJ1njGcevETs/lLO2nKXi+fF1jXjseZUdClZYR0yZmc KGSkAarIrHUTWUSMXQxf6lA1/wBgH1AeL7PZUtbfc9dZuWxkZMaTPCfaMZtx5iuXt1tP27RaunmB AnxQQciR7DiU2DzvqNXmhbT+MbjD1zugxhbI+QRamPt1EVyMllCrCnt9wD/O3/17eKbXlm5dWVuI WiYEn2TpjRf842bLw9pwsxUQB7aTnH8erEZpvlpd3vklkCiWmsvmGOq4xdrnQMwKR5CotOmMeSkl AOIg2AgnHUAEf7E/Ti7cditLsUuowNxiOOTTPKvr/wCDjPtfMt9u5XLNxCLSg8M0Ajmb+3X7xiX1 PzvxvaLVXINSq2GEgrjKGh6vbnpW3TruSqJpBzUiLGUSIJlShuHXTX1/g23Pf8s37VtmqUsokqJm Puzxq23nLbXrqpQyq5pVjEE5aiZGuKVz95zyykHZWGFI6dg3FWsSEY7ySoxZuo1X0cAZvtcprlIK wpCZMTF3CUg+gevDHtflpQ6nclTUs0SQ3DPKNOP24U9684OUddoGUqwFcArxyznWMuOWNeR2eVjP CQDWmTdxf1uOry16fxYNjOUTTjdFUjhvGlOVw4SICoGVMknoX3AUDCQwAhftgiouFDFqZmOUnIto DllJ/nj06d5M0C2zlQlZESKwDIXVhnnAy4aHEfrfkBPtEcrPLtT5ASVy+hUqXGsBZKuXjt0gx6SK KCbgQFYTuBOKphBMCGDU2pRDi292pCbQtuOZKmJmAATLaaZaaziix3u4ovG8h5blCgRJJCwmuucz pHHLD7PeSEfUWFmJbKHOxdsqy8MRzTkDtHa7xvPOhaMnLFdNYEliGVKYhgESmKYolEP4Ea7XaGul aHUq1XNmIKiSCIkZYvvd+Wwr9W2wdSvLkSQ5hSpmDnlwM44C5xe1+eyGNtiplKTjG1SbQWL0U49d UknYFX6DZs2fN1NFlHJkCmU5hwTSAvtMIbh4l/rRcS30yIJeXz8KQSSDoBOUZnFf+3a1cu9UNIFs C3ynmcsAAwOZaM5yXhxw8SfkRHQCM6wslQkoS5QctDRClYVcsxSVNYDHLHOiyAqlblbnFI4HOYQE hiiXaJhKBq07S1wqUcFCGMwfc8QpiZ9XHFtzvi2gy3EKurKtMj3/AAmqYpyMnhERMYlf5Rm/jPdP xXafkff/AI98U5Kf/bTf13Xbun6Hl+7qd2zX2f8AT2cU/sk6lPUWmmqf6RrV/brx0xp/2L9KrovV VTT/AOqvDRHvacNcsL95zp+uaJ9aSf2txHp7T5j/AAL9TEurvvlW/wBRvpYO850/XNE+tJP7W4On tPmP8C/UwdXffKt/qN9LB3nOn65on1pJ/a3B09p8x/gX6mDq775Vv9RvpYO850/XNE+tJP7W4Ont PmP8C/UwdXffKt/qN9LB3nOn65on1pJ/a3B09p8x/gX6mDq775Vv9RvpYyRnqjZDu2WsCWmxSeK6 JLUeaReQNSkbm7FxPKEftFwbtudBNz7jHSKn7E1B1OHp/gX3a9zZs7a+iC64YQWCCFyIk85+3UaY 8z3nZ7jcbvb3LhsoUYEKbhl+YGBNseiMgdcU1n3FclZMzzV4e3zBOPLc8jUGVlqVrtacvtWBqmm3 ddLIQjflH5AJGJuTHXQDepTCAsO171be1FsJfdQZDKlPHMSrmc544Vd67c17eteNzb23IAZXuVZx kYZBGURl+Bx5G4jnHk/4+ycVkbCyr6ku1zRreItqLQbE9O8BVXoEY+BRSSMU2iYAmksYB03CY38j 79Al9Wt3oYZyk0CPeqck+nMjBb7Y7XNsy3dvKExTcA6hmTSFtgD0ZBvXOM+yXjG9FF7EvvIfAybr uizx88d2wDSYriHLMku5OyBTQogIiX01OIiYNdNGqd5EhhYvxEZJy+wT/AwkueX2gqdztpkkk3Oa fQTTP/eNTzWJr88z5la9I37FUWFirrtnl7Ghrgoq7Rr6rJui/wCpcKQXMZo+xJUVRQASalATaDqK S3vrI2dq1RdNLAo9GVcmmBXzHUROePRXe27ht/evC5ZFSkXE6mdEANJ6cqNDNOXpxTWOMNrVWeqi aeYvHSyR0VMFdki+/Riks/3KkOi17i4g3aoCBygBRTT3e4QLp7NjDd9wF1G/K3CkiJpakeukOB+P 9cK9h2o2Lifn7VgGmKlqbPIVFGP3CfwjnnfHK4va/e28JnjDsJiubticlIxq1sF23ZSRSuOlbKyH a0gBUqSpw2+wTgXUS+307a7vaV0LWbpuhYBogkZSaatJ+2MRvdivNbuBNxYWyzyR1JAbOAWpGcE+ ifRjS10o2V5Ns0rU9ZsMMn02EUOM5eQsbgljjCN0USKBBvyQ7dQSr8ox09CH27zAPNL6cJ9tudup Lqt4gTWAooaZ8YqOnHTThh/u9nu3Atu9gE00EueosAf42oBziRkYnjh8lKTl10tdwaTOJ45xMZSY 2itqGtb5VeKtzduyKSNcawxSueYigA9OBElRKpru004rTc7YBJF0xaKnkHNbJPMObLM+LMZYuubT dsbkNZBN4Ov5hlboC8p5OaQPDCtnhK70bLk1aZuVvs1iZjb5BenKMGYWt8wTZRUPMmdM25Wq8Oqq cz96KiYLGU0E+hSEESiBu7bc7ZLYW0LpQV+4DLMsEyGjlWDEaanHN3s93cus15rIc9OPzCsKryBB QnnaRM65AY48wUy1TU5kSbt7/DdccSbmkuhjrFcVlmca5hDyB2pZFs6gUiuEpFJdcgJm5eoEMJTG 0HSWw3FtEtrbF5orzVMyGpmkhzBUgZ564h3TaXbj3XumwpJtmGuGFKVRUDbEhwWEZaGJw1VuDtjj 5fL4/mPG1pGdXFurRDVuWa9hJDtk10zM5VFCDMqoDlVUVAVUcFApiFAhNAMBp3rlsUrdG4mDBYGq oxmpLxkMoC8c8V2LN01tYbagSpYKwopE8rgW5NRMyWEECBrKf4/vH4/7h37Cv42+dfKul+WvPhPR 9J0vZul7VyuTv/u06jZzfXk6enHf3VrrRTe6lFPgHUmZqmqZ4eGY445+yv8A7eqrb9LqV/5D0YiK IoiOPiifdx//2Q== ------=_NextPart_000_0160_01C13F92.82339C00 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="nav_morenews.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www.nature.com/nsu/slices/nav_morenews.jpg /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgAAZABkAAD/7AARRHVja3kAAQAEAAAAUAAA/+4ADkFkb2JlAGTAAAAAAf/b AIQAAgICAgICAgICAgMCAgIDBAMCAgMEBQQEBAQEBQYFBQUFBQUGBgcHCAcHBgkJCgoJCQwMDAwM DAwMDAwMDAwMDAEDAwMFBAUJBgYJDQsJCw0PDg4ODg8PDAwMDAwPDwwMDAwMDA8MDAwMDAwMDAwM DAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwM/8AAEQgADwCKAwERAAIRAQMRAf/EAKAAAQACAwEBAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAEBwUGCAIJAQEAAgMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgUDBAYBBwgQAAAGAQIDBQUFCQAAAAAAAAECAwQF BgcAERITCCIVltZXITFiFBYzNDVVNkFhMkIjVGRWNxEAAQMBBQUGAwcFAQAAAAAAARECAwAhMRIT BEFRU9MFYSIykpMGkSMz8HGBsdFiFKHB4VJygv/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8A7H18Nr9J00pTSlNKU0pT SlNKU0pXEeTeuCoY1u1zoiuP7PYZOjgkpLvmBG4tCJKFQHnHOKgmTTAXBCcRi7cQgX+YNdHo/bcu piZLjaA65VXb+lcl1D3dDpJ5Ict7iy8hE2W32C341Kxx1u4+yFd2dOPVLFUkpeKdzEHOTCKZEXLZ i3VdLqcCZziBATbrcJyiYBEgh7/ZrzV+3JtPEZMTXIQCBsJKD8x8aloPd2n1U4iwOYrS4F20AEn+ gNtt1Y2s9d+PbFZ65FLUuzwdVuEupCVe+PkEisXLtMyRBASlOIlKBliAYQEwk4iiYADfhnN7Zmjj c7G0uaFLReB9h+NY9P7x08srWmN7WPdha8iwmz9R9y21OjOtumy+QnuP2VEsxlIabWibHYzJomj4 9FBczc71c6R1DFSAxRHtAHs/f7NQf7clZCJS9toUDabFQdtTj92wyagwCN9jiHOswtQpiPZWMr/X tjOds8NFmq1hjKvY5c0JB3ZyRv8ALqOQMmUDKoFVFVNMRUDtCAiAD7S+w3DOX2xOyMuxNLmhS21U ++5axwe89NLK1uBwY52EOKIvaFUC37WpakJ1GozAQEqpjudi6ZYbaNKY2xysy4DSYu1WKZytiLGV FudwnyuZtuB9w4dg3HSk6QWYm5jS8Mx4bfCi3oipam6rGHrokwuynCNz8sOKeJS25VwqEXfsqcl1 BsV1WcmjSpg9Cl7GeqQN85jUrd3JgsZokINzKgsRus6IZAixgAOPYTAUogbUT0ohW4xjDcRbaoai 33KBam6pjrbSQ4Ruyy7AH2IXKgsVcJd3Q7f2V7h+pCkTEjh+LTZyLZzmFq+XjxXImUkYswKcDNn5 uMQKodZFVEgF4tzkMA7a8k6RKxsrlHyyP/S7R2IQfuNexdegkdA1CDKCn7U2O7VBA7Qaw7fqXYTJ IktUoE5ZnstAu7U3iUFmSLpeGbPlmRFmSSq4C6VX5BlSIp+3gEnEJTHKA5D0csXG9rQHBq2piIBQ 2WAKhJ2rurE3r7ZMOXG5xLS9LFLAS1W294lFAGxFRRV5fVjX8mnPwPv38Mc/Zf2v8H3r/H+0+HVb kHe3xYbx8f8An911W/8AJH+rvDi8J+H/AF+2+tQ75zp6c0TxpJ+VtZ8vScR/kbzK1s3XcKP1Hcqn fOdPTmieNJPytpl6TiP8jeZTN13Cj9R3Kp3znT05onjST8raZek4j/I3mUzddwo/Udyqd8509OaJ 40k/K2mXpOI/yN5lM3XcKP1HcqnfOdPTmieNJPytpl6TiP8AI3mUzddwo/Udyqd8509OaJ40k/K2 mXpOI/yN5lM3XcKP1HcqnfOdPTmieNJPytpl6TiP8jeZTN13Cj9R3Kp3znT05onjST8raZek4j/I 3mUzddwo/Udyq+dOQMN2ydyT1D2CRyFh+Ak75Wk46x1tzcl+fXkCvIhUHbvjiEzCQTNUydsiYbrF 7XuA3W6XqEbIIGCOUhjlBwDv2OsHe7Tvurhdb0qWTU6l7pYGl7Ec0yFWBWFT3B/qBaB4h+MOtYXm Y2+4tnHeQ8OzSdZx88gk60ld1UVpeLVjpRBeRQV7nVEiRUXKigiCahQBIwibbcSym6i10MjRHKMU gK4PC5WkNPevUAXi+o6fpL2aiF5lgOGItw5pVzcLwXDuGxCTcRZfWpVvp8tsanis0xmvEVgxjWrU 6k6VBEuHypXz06rcy7RGSLEKAqfiSSA4FIYQ3HhKQT6zzdVjdm4YZRI5oDjgVBahw4rLz/lK1YOi TMEOKeB0TXktGYilQoDsFtwWz4LV/YTx5a6ZK9SjpKZxNf2OQXJ1bzGsru5QNXkBUkzLovFU4Nzw 7lcqFEyhU9uWYdvfw1fUdXHM3ThJWFnhJjHf8KJ3xuFy31ddJ0MunfqiHQyCQ98CUjAO8od8s7ze l1cz0nCoViUhkCZn6dJuEZy/zh2C9ginMs6RMcgkad5O4N0Yu3DsBiJb7mNsAdkC3Gp6jmtJytQC Qi4XBo7cIePzqg0nSclzRn6VzQ5UxtLj2YjG78q7Gj6fkpDF+Pa2m6xc4ioHJSFhjrOW5vPl5B+S zuJEIlLaBEvOMucWgcKhjcZR/p8XYDn3aiA6h70kUx4SMAUDAG4vHcneuu27a6lml1I0sUawo2UO Dswo52YXYB8u9e7ebdmyqdrVVj4mVgYeLmOmJ4vH3EZVit9Qs3FocJHemcN4kZJSDVMY5VTlT5pU AVEoAUvCbtasJp3Pa5zhqQrE8JDLkLsOPdaipVXp9M1j2ta7SEiRR3wZDaoZiwG1bFwqlgSslL4o tMiXJacbccVRE1d5tpIUN6neFlDVkzaXfOlmzVLuIvOBZ8q8IYNydriT23TENQj10bctWSkNBDvl +NWgKe/YjQ3fv21OXpsr83C+EOe4FhzT8tHOJAGXary8G7dsrdblWL0erQjBZ7gxjjaQqsfB49a2 izLP27Vyglym0nDSBYVibmKEMmOxDG3MUpiHL+3X080OYSkxkDiXYWoSNrXNxO7f71t6rTz5TWk6 cRFgazG8uAIFjmOwNtNl3YQasH6Bz/8Amtf/AOWfQv67kftf9k/TX3r4/d8WtT+Vo9zvq4/pj0/q eGt7+F1De36OX9V3q/S8XbX/2Q== ------=_NextPart_000_0160_01C13F92.82339C00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 13:23:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23371; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:22:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:22:27 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Report from WTC ground zero. Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:30:33 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3BA5CB65.6C6AC21B verisoft.com.tr> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"7YhLw2.0.3j5.2kbfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Hamdi. Yes, it is remarkable how we stick our heads in the sand and ignore obvious peril. As Jed mentioned, suicide attack by airplane goes back to the second world war, yet our administration was preparing to spend billions building a nuclear missle defense shield. The WTC was bombed back in the early nineties; the high tech device used was a few 55 gal drums of fertilizer and a Rider truck. Now they've gotten really sophisticated, hijaaking 767's with plastic knives. I'm personally digusted at the failure of our government to adequately address these issues; rather they would spend our money on fancy pipe dreams and leave us to be sacrificed. By the way, your comment about the quake death toll makes me curious. It may be comparing apples and oranges, but if 50,000 were killed how many were pulled from the wreakage alive? Currently, we have about 5000 people unaccounted for; although everyone here hates to admit it they're not exactly "missing" if you know what I mean. Find out the number of survivors and divide by 10 and see what we come up with... K. -----Original Message----- From: hamdi ucar [mailto:hamdix verisoft.com.tr] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 6:08 AM To: vortex Subject: Re: Report from WTC ground zero. Dear Keith, I am at Turkey, Istanbul. This a very crowded, unordered city with large percent of buildings are not proof to strong earthquake. And it is expected a big one will hit in near future. If it happens we will be no better than Kobe. Narrow communication channels of the city will be blocked. Phone and other communications network will collapse. There would be no rescue operations, even there would be no recovery. Millions can be lost. Everybody know this, since a large quake hit the area at 1997 and missed closely the city. Despite this about 50K was dead. Our people have great a religion, and have great confidence to Lord. So nobody try to prepare for such a disaster. People say "If we gonna to die, nobody can prevent this." They think their fate is already determined. Once, a detailed geophysical map is prepared showing the stiffness the earth, a vulnerability map of the city district by district. Announcement of this map get negative reaction apparently from public. It is said "We dont want to know how we are vulnerable". Actually it is afraid that real estate prices will fall in vulnerable places. So This map is never published. Fortunately, I live in a location risks are lower. I expect the building I live will be damaged but not collapse with a sever quake. I have an idea to save life in tall buildings, replacing emergency stairs. This is emergency windows. Windows will are equipped with shutes for higher levels and frictioned ropes for lower levels ( < 10-30), which allow people can safely jump out of windows by holding a rope. I initially thought high tech "gravity-shutes" or gravity belts waiting to be invented. But even low-tech can save life. I just figured a better method, replacing one time ropes with permanent steel ropes, where multiple friction based sliders with handles or belts are attached. Each channels can be used by multiple levels. For example 400 channels with each 50-100 sliders each can allow 20000 person safe descent in less than 10 minutes. Keith Nagel wrote: > > Hi Hamdi. > > Yes, I don't have cable here so I don't see > CNN's TV coverage. For that matter, I actually > don't have television at all as such. > See, all those broadcast antennas were > on the roof of the WTC.... > > I wonder if what you see is the same as what gets shown > domestically here. I know their web site is like > this, several editions for different markets. > Where are you? > > K. > hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 13:27:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25555; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:27:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:27:05 -0700 Message-ID: <01a101c13fb7$13252110$6401a8c0 cs910664a> From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: Subject: Re: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:26:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"bwtE_2.0.DF6.Pobfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It's good idea even if it saves one life, and it costs us nothing to submit our ideas. Colin Quinney ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Beaty" To: Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 11:28 AM Subject: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism > > > > > http://www.sas.org/Terrorist/SAS_ATN.html > > From the Society of Amateur Scientists > > In the wake of the terrible tragedy in New York on September 11, 2001 a lot > of us have been wondering what we can do to assist the effort to protect the > United States from future terrorist attacks. As I write this the death toll > is unknown, but it will no doubt be many thousands, probably many times more > than the 2,400 souls lost on December 7, 1941. And as our nation launches a > sustained effort against international terrorism, it seems quite likely that > we will see more suicide bombings or perhaps worse, that will kill more > Americans. My own view is that we are in for a rough decade. > > > Most of us cannot help directly in the effort to hunt down and destroy the > perpetrators of the horrible attack on the World Trade Center . However, the > Society for Amateur Scientists might be able to help mitigate the carnage > our nation will experience as the war against terrorism escalates to new > levels. Here's why. > > > Apparently, the idea of hijacking fully fueled airplanes and crashing them > into vital US targets was first seriously proposed by novelist Tom Clancy. > Clancy says that he told a key anti-terrorist person in the military about > the plot of a book he was writing in which a hijacked plane was deliberately > crashed into the capital building during a joint session of Congress. He > asked if the military had thought about this scenario. The analyst, Clancy > reports, said "No. But I promise you on Monday we will." The terrorists used > a low tech, relatively low cost tactic that delivered an enormous about of > energy with high accuracy to high value targets. Their idea was anticipated > by an amateur analyst. > > > There's a reason for that. Amateurs are accustomed to thinking up low tech > solutions to difficult technical problems. > > Join the SAS Shadow Team > > In security circles, the game of pretending you are the enemy can yield > tremendous insights into your vulnerabilities. It used to be called Red > Teaming for obvious Cold War reasons. Today, with the new security > challenges, it needs a new name. Sheldon Greaves suggests we call the game > of getting into the terrorist's mind "Shadow Teaming." And that's what we're > going to call it. > > > Over the years I've occasionally indulged in Shadow Teaming by trying to > dream up terrible things I could do if I were a terrorist. First I assume > only inexpensive methods, and restrict myself to no more technology than I > could buy at Radio Shack. Then I assume that I am an isolated person or a > small cell of dedicated terrorists. Further, I assume the terrorists all > want to survive the attack. (Like the kamikaze of World War II, a suicide > bomber can inflect a lot of damage. Once. If the US can destroy the camps in > which these people are trained and financed then the suicide bombers will, > like the kamikaze, burn themselves out. Personally, I'm much more worried > about people may be already in this country and who choose to survive to > attack again.) I've been able to dream up an absolutely frightening array > ways to very dramatically strike at the infrastructure that we all rely on. > And in all my schemes the terrorist would survive to attack another day. > > My own view is that we will begin to see well-educated terrorists looking > for ways to do maximum damage and survive. We must not assume that the FBI > will identify these threats by themselves. We know the technology, and we > have the expertise to make a real contribution. And I believe it is our duty > as citizens to contribute that expertise to those who might be able to apply > it to save American lives. > > > This is where I believe the Society for Amateur Scientists can make an > important contribution to our nation's security. > > > I hope you feel the same way. So I've just created the SAS Anti-Terrorist > Network to give you a chance to apply your creative energies to protecting > America. Here's how it works. Dream up your most devious terrorist plots and > email them to SAS Headquarters. I will put together a panel of experts to > review all the material we receive and once each quarter we will assemble > all of the technically feasible ideas into a secret report that we will > deliver to the FBI. This material will never be published or made available > to the public or even to the rest of the membership. After all, we don't > want to train terrorists. > > > Our community has a great deal to contribute. Please help. > > > Submissions > > Here's a link to some great information about terrorists. > > Remember, a terrorist doesn't have to kill people. The aim of political > terror is to make people feel unsafe. A terrorist can strike at any soft > target, not necessarily large groups of people. Think about the entire > infrastructure of the US. > > Because SAS does not have a lot of resources to throw at this project, you > have to do the feasibility analysis yourself. Think the problem through. For > example, don't just say "poison the water supply." You've got to specify > exactly which poison, calculate how much they'd need to do the job, explain > how the terrorists would get it and how they would inject it into a given > water supply, etc. Don't assume the terrorists have access to any technology > that you don't have access to. > > > Apart from that, no rules. Come one everybody, scare me! > > > Send your submissions ATN sas.org > > > I've started a discussion about the Anti-Terrorist Network on the Forum. DO > NOT DISCUSS SPECIFIC TACTICS IN THE FORUM! The area is reserved to talk > about what you think about SAS carrying creating the Anti-Terrorist Network, > and that affects you think it will have if any. > > > Shawn Carlson > Executive Director > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.280 / Virus Database: 147 - Release Date: 9/11/2001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 13:47:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA00308; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:46:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:46:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA65381.32992CF6 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:48:52 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qxy1L.0.x_7.v4cfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would like to continue the debate about evidence for the Mills effect within the P-F effect. I had made the assertion that orphaned oxygen could provide a means to detect the formation of hydrinos, an idea which was dismissed. Let's look at some numbers. Mills says that to reach the first Mills level, 54.4 ev would be given off from deuterium. This means that when one watt of excess power was being produced, oxygen would be produced at about 12 ml/hr [22.4 L/mole*1 watt*3600sec/hr*0.5 oxygen/electron/(154ev*23063cal/mol/ev)]. My system is capable of measuring a change in gas volume of 0.04 ml. Consequently, I could easily see a growing volume of gas at 1 watt provided the hydrino only went to the first level. For me to miss this effect, all of the hydrinos would have to go to at least the sixth level. We know that some of the heat results from He4 formation. If hydrinos are required to produce He4, the concentration of hydrinos would have to increase to a sufficiently high level that two of them could get together in a reasonable time. The rate at which two hydrinos will interact will be proportional to their concentration squared and to their diffusion rate through the material. Regardless of now much handwaving you want to do, their concentration must increase before this reaction can occur. This increase will be accompanied by the formation of orphaned oxygen with a corresponding pressure rise. The rise that is detected is consistent with the amount of D dissolving within the Pd. Of course, some uncertainty exists here that could mask a small amount of hydrino formation. Also the question must be answered as to why in the P-F effect are the hydrinos not produced immediately, with their release of energy. Everyone who has studied the effect using bulk Pd always sees a delay and the absence of heat if the Pd does not load sufficiently. Why would the formation of hydrinos care about the concentration of D within the Pd? If the reaction involves only He4 formation, then this question is easily answered. In this case, the rate will depend at least on the concentration of dissolved D squared, with "normal" orphaned oxygen produced. If hydrinos are required to start the process, then orphaned oxygen caused by their formation must also be taken into account. So far, no evidence exists to suggest this added process. I'm not suggesting that the Mills effect does not occur. I'm only saying that no evidence in the behavior of the P-F cell is consistent with the need to add this additional process to this one method. I suggest that requiring hydrino formation in the P-F effect is not necessary for Mills to be correct in his claims or in his theory. We can easily experience two or even many different processes to produce these anomalous observations. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 14:09:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA09851; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:09:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:09:05 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Zeljko Dakic" To: Subject: RE: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:11:06 +0200 Message-ID: <000e01c13fbd$4d864ae0$82875b93 barbara> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"IOM8y2.0.mP2.mPcfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ok since William Beaty is constantly filling my inbox with some junk, and he is just one of manu americans, most of which I consider brain dead, let me forward and share with you one rare example of inteligent american (there are such persons y'a know). This guy is Criss Pirillo and runs prestigios EZine called LockerGnome. And just to add that I don't think that Bill is such bad person, I really enjoy his posts otherwise. Regards, Zeljko Dakic zeljko fon.bg.ac.yu www.dakic.co.yu ICQ:12903322 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Let me tell you a story... on my way to work this morning, I witnessed an accident. For whatever reason, a dairy truck had broken down in the middle of an intersection. The tanker was leaking all over the place. Since there was no other way around the mess, I walked straight through a deep puddle of spilled milk. The driver ran out and started screaming at me for choosing this route. In frustration, he pushed me down to the ground. I've never been so angry in my entire life! From this point on, I vow to hate all truck drivers. They need to be removed from our planet. The only good world is a world without truck drivers. They're all the same, anyway. They smell bad. They can't dress themselves. They're dishonest. And they can't speak English well. But I'm not finished yet. After I picked myself up, I grabbed his flannel lapels and dunked him like an Oreo cookie. I walked away, but not before talking to other people who he had also pushed. We decided to call his company and get him fired. I also plan on suing his company. Yep. In fact, I wanna get ALL truckers fired from their respective companies. Doesn't matter which company they're from. I bet Hog truckers are just as bad as Dairy truckers, ya know? None of them deserve to be on the road. Even the ones who I've never met -- or the ones who may have never pushed people down. If you look like one, you MUST be one. Stop. Look. Listen. Think. The above story (if you hadn't already figured it out) isn't true and I don't actually believe any of those things about truck drivers... are you getting the picture? I'm tired of seeing blind hatred for PEOPLE who are pretty much like you and me. Or for those who look different. Again, please remember that the USA does NOT have a monopoly on innocent human lives. What's vandalism going to prove? What's bigotry going to solve? If we were back in grade school, Miss Hoover would tell us that it would be wrong to adopt this sort of attitude. But we're not in grade school, are we? We're not getting graded for this course. Right? Don't misplace your anger. I refuse to use racism to show my patriotism. I'm extremely proud of my country, but I'm also proud of my upbringing. Mom and Dad taught me that it was wrong to jump to conclusions. No problem. And even though retribution is imminent, I pray that it is as precise and as calculated as possible. Justice should be both swift and permanent. That's part one. Part two? Taking a fresh approach to the way our country handles foreign affairs. I wouldn't be so quick to vilify an entire population until after you study your history books. Our past policies have been far from perfect, and if we continue down this violent path, we'll find ourselves back at ground zero all too soon. Literally. We won't be lulled into a the false sense of security again. What makes our cause so great? Dude! We embrace all kinds of colors, creeds, shapes, sizes, and persuasions. We have FREEDOM! Hating Islam and all of its followers for the actions of its terrorist radicals is like hating Christianity and all the Germans for the actions of Hitler. Either way, it ain't right. You're better than that. Educate yourself. Ignorance is NOT bliss -- it's embarrassing and counter-productive. Why am I spending my time sharing these insights with you? Because I want to make sure you don't say, write, or do something that you'll regret in a month, year, or decade from now. Another reason? I'm an information junkie -- always have been. This past week has put my mind so far out of whack. We were forced to move Gnomedex back to October 12-13, I couldn't see Gretchen for her birthday on Sunday, and I was supposed to work on compiling data for the next two week's worth of Lockergnome. Guess what? I'm taking a break this week. I have to. I will publish something every day, but I'm not sure what the content will be quite yet. I was hoping to use prudent Soapbox entries. If you have opinions, please share 'em. Unlike Jake, I can't get enough of the breaking news, interviews, roundtables, and the like. No, not watching the horrific scenes over and over again, but hearing opinions and political perspectives. It is, after all, our world that hangs in the balance. If you'll pardon me -- I have to go buy a couple of US Bonds. United We Stand, Chris Pirillo > -----Original Message----- > From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com] > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 5:28 PM > To: freenrg-l eskimo.com > Subject: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism > > > > > > > http://www.sas.org/Terrorist/SAS_ATN.html > > >From the Society of Amateur Scientists > > In the wake of the terrible tragedy in New York on September > 11, 2001 a lot > of us have been wondering what we can do to assist the effort > to protect the > United States from future terrorist attacks. As I write this > the death toll > is unknown, but it will no doubt be many thousands, probably > many times more > than the 2,400 souls lost on December 7, 1941. And as our > nation launches a > sustained effort against international terrorism, it seems > quite likely that > we will see more suicide bombings or perhaps worse, that will > kill more > Americans. My own view is that we are in for a rough decade. > > > Most of us cannot help directly in the effort to hunt down > and destroy the > perpetrators of the horrible attack on the World Trade Center > . However, the > Society for Amateur Scientists might be able to help mitigate > the carnage > our nation will experience as the war against terrorism > escalates to new > levels. Here's why. > > > Apparently, the idea of hijacking fully fueled airplanes and > crashing them > into vital US targets was first seriously proposed by > novelist Tom Clancy. > Clancy says that he told a key anti-terrorist person in the > military about > the plot of a book he was writing in which a hijacked plane > was deliberately > crashed into the capital building during a joint session of > Congress. He > asked if the military had thought about this scenario. The > analyst, Clancy > reports, said "No. But I promise you on Monday we will." The > terrorists used > a low tech, relatively low cost tactic that delivered an > enormous about of > energy with high accuracy to high value targets. Their idea > was anticipated > by an amateur analyst. > > > There's a reason for that. Amateurs are accustomed to > thinking up low tech > solutions to difficult technical problems. > > Join the SAS Shadow Team > > In security circles, the game of pretending you are the enemy > can yield > tremendous insights into your vulnerabilities. It used to be > called Red > Teaming for obvious Cold War reasons. Today, with the new security > challenges, it needs a new name. Sheldon Greaves suggests we > call the game > of getting into the terrorist's mind "Shadow Teaming." And > that's what we're > going to call it. > > > Over the years I've occasionally indulged in Shadow Teaming > by trying to > dream up terrible things I could do if I were a terrorist. > First I assume > only inexpensive methods, and restrict myself to no more > technology than I > could buy at Radio Shack. Then I assume that I am an isolated > person or a > small cell of dedicated terrorists. Further, I assume the > terrorists all > want to survive the attack. (Like the kamikaze of World War > II, a suicide > bomber can inflect a lot of damage. Once. If the US can > destroy the camps in > which these people are trained and financed then the suicide > bombers will, > like the kamikaze, burn themselves out. Personally, I'm much > more worried > about people may be already in this country and who choose to > survive to > attack again.) I've been able to dream up an absolutely > frightening array > ways to very dramatically strike at the infrastructure that > we all rely on. > And in all my schemes the terrorist would survive to attack > another day. > > My own view is that we will begin to see well-educated > terrorists looking > for ways to do maximum damage and survive. We must not assume > that the FBI > will identify these threats by themselves. We know the > technology, and we > have the expertise to make a real contribution. And I believe > it is our duty > as citizens to contribute that expertise to those who might > be able to apply > it to save American lives. > > > This is where I believe the Society for Amateur Scientists > can make an > important contribution to our nation's security. > > > I hope you feel the same way. So I've just created the SAS > Anti-Terrorist > Network to give you a chance to apply your creative energies > to protecting > America. Here's how it works. Dream up your most devious > terrorist plots and > email them to SAS Headquarters. I will put together a panel > of experts to > review all the material we receive and once each quarter we > will assemble > all of the technically feasible ideas into a secret report > that we will > deliver to the FBI. This material will never be published or > made available > to the public or even to the rest of the membership. After > all, we don't > want to train terrorists. > > > Our community has a great deal to contribute. Please help. > > > Submissions > > Here's a link to some great information about terrorists. > > Remember, a terrorist doesn't have to kill people. The aim of > political > terror is to make people feel unsafe. A terrorist can strike > at any soft > target, not necessarily large groups of people. Think about > the entire > infrastructure of the US. > > Because SAS does not have a lot of resources to throw at this > project, you > have to do the feasibility analysis yourself. Think the > problem through. For > example, don't just say "poison the water supply." You've got > to specify > exactly which poison, calculate how much they'd need to do > the job, explain > how the terrorists would get it and how they would inject it > into a given > water supply, etc. Don't assume the terrorists have access to > any technology > that you don't have access to. > > > Apart from that, no rules. Come one everybody, scare me! > > > Send your submissions ATN sas.org > > > I've started a discussion about the Anti-Terrorist Network on > the Forum. DO > NOT DISCUSS SPECIFIC TACTICS IN THE FORUM! The area is > reserved to talk > about what you think about SAS carrying creating the > Anti-Terrorist Network, > and that affects you think it will have if any. > > > Shawn Carlson > Executive Director > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 14:12:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11203; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:12:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:12:08 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917163406.0385cd98 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:12:34 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Prospects for Mills versus conventional CF In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917112737.03831888 pop.mindspring.com> References: <00f001c13d7c$2975a760$aa69fea9 cpq> <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622 ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6 ix.netcom.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010914155948.02b4b9d0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"PNy8X.0.yk2.dScfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >If a heat generating CF cell could be developed that is compact, reliable >and lasts 20 years, and generates temperatures up to 200 deg C, it might >survive competition with a pure electricity generating system, in things >like space heating, clothes dryers, cooking and so on. Note that thermally driven refrigerators have no moving parts and last much longer than electric refrigerators with mechanical compressors. Some of the gas-fired refrigerators built in the 1930s are still in use. We tend to assume that electricity is the most convenient form of high-grade energy, but that is partly because we are not used to engineering products with high-grade heat. In the late 19th century, fully automatic small steam engines were perfected. One can be seen in the Old Smithsonian Building 1876 exhibition. They remained competitive with small electric motors for a surprisingly long time. >Maintaining the grid costs a fantastic amount of money. The entire grid >has to be replaced every 20 to 50 years, depending on things like hurricanes. The right of way for the powerline remains, but sometimes replacing or upgrading pylons is more expensive than building a new powerline. Communities today fight powerlines as much as they fight generating plants. Powerlines are an eyesore. They hurt property values. >Every house already has heating and air conditioning equipment. In a world >with CF or Mills super chemistry, this equipment will eventually be >replaced by a combined cogenerator / heater / air-conditioner . . . Note that most equipment has moving parts, such as blowers and pumps. It would wear out in roughly the same amount of time whether it is driven by CF steam turbines, CF thermoelectric converters, or super chemistry direct electric output. (The latter may be the cheapest approach, however.) Actually, as I mentioned, thermally driven refrigerator and air conditioning equipment has no moving parts, and might last longer than the super chemistry electricity model. I am assuming the power supply including the super chemical supply will ultimately be built into the refrigerator. Why bother with a separate generator and wires in the house? >Connectors laid in a parking lot would soon be smashed by traffic. You >could not convince people to take the trouble to plug in their cars, >because the electricity they generate over an eight hour period would be >worth perhaps $0.50 cents with super chemistry, or $0.000001 with CF. Accounting would be another nightmare. Keeping track of such small, inexpensive amounts of energy would be extremely difficult, and not worth the effort. "Smart electric meters" have been proposed to reduce energy consumption in California. They are expensive, complex and unproven. They must interface to high-powered electricity, so they are not likely to be miniaturized and made dirt cheap, like hand calculators. Using one to bill a shopping mall for a fraction of a penny is ridiculous. Mills is supposedly a technical genius. His proposal to use parked cars in this manner shows that he does not have a strong grasp of practical consumer engineering, energy economics, accounting and other prosaic business considerations. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 14:42:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25935; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:41:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:41:37 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010917152053.0095d3f0 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:42:00 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism In-Reply-To: <3BA61690.A91F849B ix.netcom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2URwe2.0.7L6.Hucfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:28 AM 9/17/01 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote: >Bill, this is a great idea with several major flaws. No one will pay any >attention to your ideas, as was demonstrated by your example. As everyone >knows who flew, airport security was a joke. Even a half-wit would see the Bill: I am sure Edmund is mistaken here. As I recall the bunker buster was a phone in. He will likely take the opportunity to correct me in my moment of speculation. In the case of war and weapons at least if the idea is a good one it stands. I think the problem here is not a matter of better weapons. I mean the people who we are fighting don't even know how to make there own guns. The problem is that "they" are so well infiltrated among "us" that we really have no way to sort it out. All we can do is sit tight and beef up scrutiny every place we see a hole and know that we have a thousand times the staying power. I think the shadow team is an Excellent solution. Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 15:37:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA20804; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:35:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:35:30 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917181328.03831888 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:35:42 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"gMBy7.0.z45.ogdfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The notion that amateurs can make important contributions to technical or scientific fields has recently been given a boost. A surprising amount of medical research is now driven by amateurs over the Internet. There was an article about this in the New York Times magazine recently. Still, I do not think I would want to spend time thinking about how I might blow things up with simple, cheap gadgets. It is too depressing. Besides, it is easy to find many ways experts are already worried about, such as stray nuclear weapons in Russia. I would prefer to dream of simple machines that might transform the whole world into a garden of Eden, as pretty as the Blue Ridge mountains of Pennsylvania. After a catastrophe like the one last Tuesday, or Pearl Harbor, we tend to assume the experts are fools who let us down. Perhaps they did. On the other hand, last year the FBI and the CIA thwarted a plot to destroy six airplanes en rout over the Pacific Ocean. Most of staff officers at Pearl Harbor remained at their posts for the entire war, and they performed brilliantly. (Only the top commanders were replaced.) Sometimes the separation between success and failure is paper thin. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 16:08:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA00565; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:07:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:07:54 -0700 Message-ID: <021d01c13fcd$87fa06c0$6401a8c0 cs910664a> From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917104327.03844470 pop.mindspring.com> <01091713472400.01370@tyrannosaur> Subject: Re: Afghanistan Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:07:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"MLwTh3.0.j8.99efx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bulldozing their widows? egad. Maybe the Soviets did that if anybody did, but I find that kind of extremist propaganda distasteful. We need facts, history, and reasoned discourse. Lets learn all we can about what gave birth to this disease called terrorism in the first place, and then treat it like a cancer. There are two ways to treat cancer and they are not necessarily exclusive. Boost the immune system, and/or kill it with surgery, chemotherapy, and radiation. It takes a knowledge of not only alternative techniques, but the TYPE of cancer to determine what works best.. and just like a cancer, there are different "types" of terrorists. Bombing Afghanistan would be like ONLY using surgery to cut cancer from the throat after it had spread to various organs in the body. Maybe a combination of a few selective US strikes, immediately followed by re-education from a more responsible Islamic state is required, but that's certainly not us. This "re-education" (a nasty word with bad connotations, I admit) requires enormous funding. Perhaps every corporation in the world should be taxed one half of one percent to help alleviate these kinds of problems. What non-terrorist nation would object to this, considering the alternative? Meanwhile, we protect ourselves. i.e: Central water supplies must be split into smaller "cells". Colin Quinney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" To: Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:47 PM Subject: Re: Afghanistan > On Monday 17 September 2001 07:47, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > > > > >Very useful information on Afgahnistan. > > > > > > >http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/14/afghanistan/index.html > > > > This information is exaggerated. I have nothing good to say > about the > > Taliban, but I am sure they do not bury widows alive. That > kind of > > hyperbole makes the entire description suspect. Beware of > demonizing a > > whole culture or nation. > > > > - Jed > > > > > Maybe you beware of misguided 'political correctness'. > There is now forming a new 'political correctness' just > as surely as in the great purges of the USSR in the > 1950's. At that time, people in the USSR practiced > a kind of 'self censor' so that they would not be > prosecuted for 'improper' speech or writing. As yet > we do not have that here. > The article from Salon magazine evidently > is supported by Salon to the extent that the Bin Laden > and Taliban forces are probably fully able to use their > money and mouthpieces (1930ish for lawyers in the > gangland era) to sue if it was a lie. Be also aware that > practitioners of 'political correctness' also have great > capacity to lie and use half-truths as a weapon along > with implied threats > It almost fits the character of an extremist > gang to do that to their widows. They pronounced > them unemployable in religious, and therefor unretractable > terms. That makes all of them ultimately wards of the > state, as no one has the capacity to take care of them. > They cannot care for them or refuse to, so therefore > they do with them what they do to villagers from > captured territory of Mr Rabbani's government in the > northeast----they massacre them by whatever means. > When democracy comes again to this poor country, > and it will, these mass graves will be found. Not > by you, who will now have a common cause with the > Taliban in not locating them, but by the new rulers > of the country, who will want the information in order > to prosecute the murderers. Too bad they will not > be able to prosecute the apologists too. > I remember Cambodia! I will never forget > Cambodia. The world should not forget either, no > matter how many 'politically correct' excuses for > humanity refuse to see. I realize this is a dialogue of > the deaf for some, but some will know. > Now back to rational discussion of what this > list is really all about.................physics, my first love. > Sorry for the interruption > > Standing Bear > > see also the letter from Mr Mallove about the nukes > that Bin Laden has! > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.280 / Virus Database: 147 - Release Date: 9/11/2001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 16:10:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA01378; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:09:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:09:44 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:05:04 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Prospects for Mills versus conventional CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <002201c13fcd$306426c0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <00f001c13d7c$2975a760$aa69fea9 cpq> <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6@ix.netcom.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010914155948.02b4b9d0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010917163406.0385cd98 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"5pJos2.0.SL.uAefx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have just read one of the most fantastic Vortex postings in recent memory -going way beyond innocent hyperbole and unsubstantiated absurdity. For a moment I had to check and see if Captain Nemo was going to be given as a reference. >If a heat generating CF cell could be developed that is compact, reliable >and lasts 20 years, and generates temperatures up to 200 deg C, it might >survive competition with a pure electricity generating system, in things >like space heating, clothes dryers, cooking and so on. Even if it worked for space heating, few would be prepared to give up the convenience of electricity for the things that the low grade heat of CF will never work for, such as...well, computers and the internet for starters. So its not either/ or. Who will you pay big bucks for low grade heat? The most similar device to a CF cell that is presently in use in power generating applications is the lead acid battery. It uses heavy metal electrodes, electrolytes and high current, just like the CF cell but at more managable temperatures. In continuous use, these will last a few thousand hours, even though neither the electrode material nor the electrolyte is consumed. No one can assume that CF cells would even last that long at 200 degrees. Especially not as an immature technology. > Note that thermally driven refrigerators have no moving parts and last much > longer than electric refrigerators with mechanical compressors. An unsubstantiated supposition. Not one in a thousand that were ever produced are still in operation, and besides, many, many 30 year old electric refrigerators are still in still in operation. > Some of the gas-fired refrigerators built in the 1930s are still in use. So what. There is a famous old electric light bulb at a Bay area fire department that just celebrated its 100th year of continuous use. Cute, but it means nothing... except, of course that you just cannot justify a claim that something "lasts much longer" just because one or a few of that item were extremely well built. There are some damn good horse drawn carriages out there from the previous century - does that does not mean we should abandon the automobile. > We tend to assume that electricity is the most convenient form of high-grade energy, but that is partly because we are not used to engineering products with high-grade heat. 200 degree heat is not high grade heat. It is low grade heat. > In the late 19th century, fully automatic small steam > engines were perfected. One can be seen in the Old Smithsonian Building > 1876 exhibition. They remained competitive with small electric motors for a > surprisingly long time. Steam will not likely be an option for CF. Again the 200 degree output of a CF cell is low grade heat. > Maintaining the grid costs a fantastic amount of money. The entire grid has to be replaced every 20 to 50 years, depending on things like hurricanes. I repeat. This is absolute nonsense. The argument falls completely apart unless you can frame it as either/or and you cannot- consequently the grid costs will always be there. Of the ten cents per kwh you pay for power, it is not likely that much more than a cent goes to maintaining the grid anyway and maybe another cent for grid depreciation. The big ticket item is for fossil fuels. And even if CF gets a reliabe product out there, the grid will still need to be maintained so that you power those wonderful items that can't use low grade heat, i.e. your TV, computer, communication stuff, in fact, all the neat stuff that people enjoy. And there will always be a substantial minority who do not want to spring for the capital cost of the low grade heat generator. Plus, the CF product will very likely need to be professionally maintained at a cost that will probalby be similar to plumbing, i.e it will always seem to cost far more than it should. The site which has all the national cost breakdowns is now down at: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/page/at_a_glance/fi_tabs.html but when it comes up again we can end this foolish guessing game about maintenance costs. Despite the fact, as mentioned your premise of either/or is false so it doesn't matter what they are. > Powerlines are an eyesore. They hurt property values. That's about the only sensible point you have made. They should be put underground. > Connectors laid in a parking lot would soon be smashed by traffic. You > could not convince people to take the trouble to plug in their cars This is an incredibly lame agrument that assumes those engineering the connector are idiots. > Accounting would be another nightmare. Keeping track of such small, > inexpensive amounts of energy would be extremely difficult, and not worth > the effort. Cars of the future will have computers more powerful than your present desktop machine and wireless communication. They can handle this chore for zero additional cost. > Mills is supposedly a technical genius. His proposal to use parked cars in > this manner shows that he does not have a strong grasp of practical > consumer engineering, energy economics, accounting and other prosaic > business considerations. To me, remarks like this show about the most profound ignorance of both business realities and technological promise that I can imagine from any commentator who wants his opinion to be taken seriously. You have demonstrated an admirable, albeit misplaced, dedication to a particular technology - going well beyond advocacy to nearly laughable limits. Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 16:14:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA03027; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:13:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:13:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA6838B.CD01D376 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 02:13:15 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from WTC ground zero. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"g3dU9.0.8l.hEefx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > > Hi Hamdi. > > > Yes, it is remarkable how we stick our heads in the sand and > ignore obvious peril. If one undertand a terrorist mind, could find large number of ideas how to overcome the security and innumerable vulnerabilities. A typical logic is to use resources, utilities in a way that they are not desgined for. A variation of the Sep.11 attack could be hijack a ship carrying gases or petroleum and crash it on a harbor, or to a petroleum platform. Even it is not needed to be killed, and escape from ship with an helicopter few minutes before is possible. How dams are secured? Isn't possible to blown it up with a ton of explosive and kill everybody and destroy everything on the path of the flood. this can be done by hanging the payload in the water by a small boat (because the water will carry most od weig ht of the explosive), control and blast it remotely. One can also open a hole in a natural gas pipes and fill the whole underground system, and blown up everything. These gas explosions are very destructive. Maybe a easy way dump few trucks of gasoline into underground trough air fences and ignite. Any usage of hijacked fuel trucks and crash them to crowded area or to energy distribution central could be very destructive. Another effective method to terrorize people really could be dump some oil on highway fast lanes, and inside tunnels. Pigeons can be used to distribute deadly diseases, continually and without be catch, by just feeding them from a balcony or from under a roof. Even some superman stories can be adapted to terror actions. The point is everything is not designed proof to terrorist actions in mind are vulnerable. hamdi ucar > By the way, your comment about the quake death toll makes me curious. > It may be comparing apples and oranges, but if 50,000 were killed > how many were pulled from the wreakage alive? I dont have real numbers but I thought it was about hundred, or few hundreds. Definitively less than half thousand overall. I did not count survivors that had escaped or rescued immediately from under wreckage. It should be noted that rescue teams can abl e to start to rescue operations effectively after two days of delay. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 17:16:56 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA28419; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:06:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:06:31 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:14:13 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex cc: Schnurer Subject: CAN YOU PLEASE TELL US WHY AND HOW? speed (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Uo_0H3.0.xx6.70ffx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., Below is a Q and A... how fast do electrons move in orbit... and i am asking...how do we know this and are there tables and if so...what are they called and how did we get there? Please Dear Ex., Very nice Questions and answers ... but can you please let us know how we can get to the results? Can you please tell us how this "speed" is determined? how about the farthest electrons in Neon, or Xenon or Argon.... Or middle orbitals of Iron? Question: Are the electrons spinning around the nucleus of an atom travelling faster than the speed of sound? Asked by: Madhur Upman Answer The electrons do not really "spin" around the nucleus in atoms. They are found in what is called "orbitals", which are three-dimensional probability distributions, which correspond to the quantum mechanical state they are in. The way thingsj work in such microscopic scales is very much different from our everyday experience, and has a "logic" of its own, and is (in my opinion) very fascinating. However, not to give the feeling the question is being fended off without an answer, let me mention this: In the Bohr model of the Hydrogen atom (which gives some right answers, but is known to be essentially incorrect) electrons _do_ spin around the nucleus. In the simplest case of a hydrogen atom with a single electron spinning around a single proton, the electron moves at about 1/137 of the speed of light, which is MUCH faster than sound. Sound travels at about 1100 feet per second, while light travels at 186,000 miles per second.. You do the math. As a side note, with the Bohr model, the "inner" electrons in atoms with greater atomic numbers would be moving faster... Answered by: Yasar Safkan, Ph.D. Candidate, M.I.T. Any Help here? Please and Thank you...... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 18:27:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA29570; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:26:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:26:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host p231-nas8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.218.231] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3BA6A124.CDB8056 ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:19:33 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hameltech yahoogroups.com, Mr_Tracys_Corner@yahoogroups.com, greenglow yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, intj-list yahoogroups.com, RealityShifters@yahoogroups.com, jlnlabs yahoogroups.com, digital-dowsers@yahoogroups.com, CDV700CLUB yahoogroups.com, ATN@sas.org Subject: [Fwd: [ormus_swg] This just in.....] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D1581615A6B3BF567F951DD4" Resent-Message-ID: <"97LQt3.0.yD7.LBgfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D1581615A6B3BF567F951DD4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------D1581615A6B3BF567F951DD4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Delivered-To: antigrav a.pop.ihug.co.nz Received: (qmail 9540 invoked from network); 18 Sep 2001 00:56:02 -0000 Received: from mx1-1.ihug.co.nz (HELO mx1.ihug.co.nz) (203.109.254.17) by bob.ihug.co.nz with SMTP; 18 Sep 2001 00:56:02 -0000 Received: from n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51] by mx1.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 15j9BB-0002hu-00; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:56:02 +1200 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-1928416-1682-1000774529-antigrav=ihug.co.nz returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Sep 2001 00:55:29 -0000 X-Sender: LiguoriRobert aol.com X-Apparently-To: ormus_swg yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 18 Sep 2001 00:55:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 72523 invoked from network); 17 Sep 2001 20:19:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Sep 2001 20:19:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta1 with SMTP; 17 Sep 2001 20:19:58 -0000 Received: from LiguoriRobert aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.7.) id r.59.10254705 (16104) for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web50.aolmail.aol.com (web50.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.161.11]) by air-id11.mx.aol.com (v80.17) with ESMTP id MAILINID118-0917161953; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:19:53 -0400 To: X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Message-ID: <59.10254705.28d7b4ea aol.com> From: liguorirobert aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ormus_swg yahoogroups.com; contact ormus_swg-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list ormus_swg yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:19:53 EDT Reply-To: ormus_swg yahoogroups.com Subject: [ormus_swg] This just in..... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Sorry if this is off topic... A distant relative of mine was in washington a week before the attack and got into an argument with an Arab person, he said to her "September 11th will be the begining, September 18th will be the end". Since the attack, she has filed a report with the FBI... Rob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/w8XolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ormus_swg-unsubscribe egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------D1581615A6B3BF567F951DD4-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 19:36:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA24063; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:34:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:34:55 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Afghanistan Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:44:33 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917104327.03844470 pop.mindspring.com> <01091713472400.01370@tyrannosaur> <021d01c13fcd$87fa06c0$6401a8c0@cs910664a> In-Reply-To: <021d01c13fcd$87fa06c0$6401a8c0 cs910664a> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091722443300.01249 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA24028 Resent-Message-ID: <"9XzKn.0.ot5.EBhfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There is an ancient and honorable Arab tradition called the coffee house or shop, a small restaurant where the men of the area talk over problems of the day. Some 'terrorism was undoubtedly developed over melifluous conversations among disparate and desparate people with shared bad experiences of loss of homelands due to the winds of war. Many peoples have been dispossesed throughout history. Southerners in the United States often went west, carrying their bitterness with them, taking it out in gunbattles and fights all over the west, giving rise to popular folklore today. Armenians were massacred and exiled in 1915 into the present republik of Armenia, formerly an autonomous S.S.R. and not of the CIS. The Soviets did many things, but bulldozing widows is probably not one of them. Soviet soldiers had mothers and fathers too. And upbringing. Mistakes they made; cruelty they did, like making cluster bombs out explosive packed toys. Nothing beats an idealogy run amok for cruelty Pol Pot (Saloth Sar) was a prime example. This man is not Elvis in a Kalamazoo laundromat in 1985. He was real, and may yet live, and is as much a monster or more than Hitler. This Johnnie learned his idealogy in France on the left bank of the Seine. LIke Hitler, Sar may have been emboldened by the world's forgetting of the millions of Armenians that had been slaughtered by Kemal Ataturk's forces just because they were a bit different. Moslem idealogues are no different than Christian or Atheist idealogues except in their rationalizations for murder on massive scale. The Armenians did not forget. If some care to look, there is, or was, a restaurant in Sacramento on J Street called 'Feenjan'. It is a local gathering place for Armenians who settled nearby in the Sacramento Valley to farm or work. Pictures of their brutalization by Ataturk,s 'progressives' adorn the walls. They are not pretty. When they ran into exile, where did they go? To the Soviets, who welcomed them and set up an autonomous region for them, more in a place where many of them lived and had lived already. O, by the way, Russia did not instantly become a socialist country in a 'magic' moment in 1918. That process had been a progressive one since 1905. Study your history, dear readers, before name calling and ignorant dismissiveness. The Taliban need no defenders, especially those who do not know of what they speak. Their record has, and will in the future, spoken for itself in liberal doses of the blood of its victims. Standing Bear And by the way, egad, c'mon man, pinprick strikes were used in Yugoslavia for years to 'excise the cancer' of Milosevich and Karadzich to no avail. My favorite picture is of the British Home Secretary on a mission of 'negotiation' having to duck into a Sarajevo doorway just as it was blasted by a benevelent Serbian artillery round. This Bin Laden will require ground troops to find him, or rather find where he used to be until he left a short time before. And 're-education'? Where did the following writer learn that one. My ex-uncle in law DIED in one of those 'centers' outside Qui Nhon in 1975. His wife, on the other hand got her 'diploma' right away. An NVA political officer drove some 'sense' into her head with a 40 penny nail through the top of her head after knocking my uncle out with a plaster statue. He was conscious just long enough to watch his wife of 40 years die in front of him. THAT is what 're-education', that filthy word, means to me; and don't you, who from your words seem never to have seen the real world, try to sell it or sugar coat it. A fatuous statement of "Gimme proof!" you want? Go to the Vietnamese community in Sacramento and ask around! Go alone if you dare!! Ask the brother of the murdered man! Do it! Get a real education on the human costs of liberalism and 'political correctness'!---and treason and betrayal. Real education is often just as prone to failure, and a prime case if Iraq. Read the history of the British administration from the 1920's to 1946 when it became independant (may be off a year or two). It took three elections to elect a Mohammed Mossadegh that took it all apart--6 years! The British DID try to train a responsible government; the people preferred demagogues and voted accordingly. No democracy is safe if not in the soul of the people. On Monday 17 September 2001 16:07, Colin Quinney wrote: > Bulldozing their widows? egad. Maybe the Soviets did that if anybody did, > but I find that kind of extremist propaganda distasteful. We need facts, > history, and reasoned discourse. Lets learn all we can about what gave birth > to this disease called terrorism in the first place, and then treat it like > a cancer. There are two ways to treat cancer and they are not necessarily > exclusive. Boost the immune system, and/or kill it with surgery, > chemotherapy, and radiation. It takes a knowledge of not only alternative > techniques, but the TYPE of cancer to determine what works best.. and just > like a cancer, there are different "types" of terrorists. Bombing > Afghanistan would be like ONLY using surgery to cut cancer from the throat > after it had spread to various organs in the body. > > Maybe a combination of a few selective US strikes, immediately followed by > re-education from a more responsible Islamic state is required, but that's > certainly not us. This "re-education" (a nasty word with bad connotations, I > admit) requires enormous funding. Perhaps every corporation in the world > should be taxed one half of one percent to help alleviate these kinds of > problems. What non-terrorist nation would object to this, considering the > alternative? > > Meanwhile, we protect ourselves. > i.e: Central water supplies must be split into smaller "cells". > > Colin Quinney > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Standing Bear" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:47 PM > Subject: Re: Afghanistan > > > > On Monday 17 September 2001 07:47, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > > > > > > >Very useful information on Afgahnistan. > > > > > > > > > >http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/14/afghanistan/index.html > > > > > > This information is exaggerated. I have nothing good to say > > about the > > > Taliban, but I am sure they do not bury widows alive. That > > kind of > > > hyperbole makes the entire description suspect. Beware of > > demonizing a > > > whole culture or nation. > > > > > > - Jed > > > > > > > > Maybe you beware of misguided 'political correctness'. > > There is now forming a new 'political correctness' just > > as surely as in the great purges of the USSR in the > > 1950's. At that time, people in the USSR practiced > > a kind of 'self censor' so that they would not be > > prosecuted for 'improper' speech or writing. As yet > > we do not have that here. > > The article from Salon magazine evidently > > is supported by Salon to the extent that the Bin Laden > > and Taliban forces are probably fully able to use their > > money and mouthpieces (1930ish for lawyers in the > > gangland era) to sue if it was a lie. Be also aware that > > practitioners of 'political correctness' also have great > > capacity to lie and use half-truths as a weapon along > > with implied threats > > It almost fits the character of an extremist > > gang to do that to their widows. They pronounced > > them unemployable in religious, and therefor unretractable > > terms. That makes all of them ultimately wards of the > > state, as no one has the capacity to take care of them. > > They cannot care for them or refuse to, so therefore > > they do with them what they do to villagers from > > captured territory of Mr Rabbani's government in the > > northeast----they massacre them by whatever means. > > When democracy comes again to this poor country, > > and it will, these mass graves will be found. Not > > by you, who will now have a common cause with the > > Taliban in not locating them, but by the new rulers > > of the country, who will want the information in order > > to prosecute the murderers. Too bad they will not > > be able to prosecute the apologists too. > > I remember Cambodia! I will never forget > > Cambodia. The world should not forget either, no > > matter how many 'politically correct' excuses for > > humanity refuse to see. I realize this is a dialogue of > > the deaf for some, but some will know. > > Now back to rational discussion of what this > > list is really all about.................physics, my first love. > > Sorry for the interruption > > > > Standing Bear > > > > see also the letter from Mr Mallove about the nukes > > that Bin Laden has! > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.280 / Virus Database: 147 - Release Date: 9/11/2001 > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 19:47:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA28446; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:46:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:46:20 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:41:40 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <004b01c13feb$72563000$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <3BA65381.32992CF6 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"dryqo.0.Jy6.yLhfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Edmund Storms" Greetings Ed, > Consequently, I could easily see a growing volume of gas at > 1 watt provided the hydrino only went to the first level. > For me to miss this effect, all of the hydrinos would have > to go to at least the sixth level. Yes, but the evolved oxygen is only part of the picture, and you seem to assuming that O2 would be growing unabated if hydrinos were occurring, but not if fusion were occurring. Have you considered that O2 will not grow past a minimum level regardless of the energy reaction - due to recombination, whether it be technically described as an oxidation or as a reduction reaction. That minimum level would be about the same as the for either hydrinos or from orphaned O2 from fusion. Thousands of hydrinos would be required under Mills to equal one pure fusion, but that doesn't really affect the chemical equilibrium of the system. And also remember that it is these hydrino themselves which must precede a fusion if the Mills reaction is the only thing going on. So, have you given adequate attention to *recombination* of the oxygen with the extra D that is forced from the matrix with increasing heat, and will unavoidably combine somewhere with the evolved oxygen? The inventory of background D in the cell at any given time would swamp by many orders of magnitude the actual reactants so that the O2 evolved from putative hydinos, if they are formed, could hardly remain as a gas in a hot cell. In a previous post, Dr. Swartz sees it as a reduction reaction (cathodic). I don't really understand the necessity of that distinction but it could be the case - in other instances it is also possible that expelled D from the Pd matrix could be oxidized at some external location. It's largely semantics except to pinpoint the location. Do you use a catalytic recombiner in this cell? > We can easily experience two or even many > different processes to produce these anomalous observations. Yes, this has been my point all along. But, if it is true, then we also know that Mills has already figured out certain ways to maximize hydrinos. Why not benefit from his work? Argon and strontium are known to be major catalysts. Why not figure out a way to see how they will affect your cell? Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 19:50:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA30190; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:48:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:48:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host p231-nas8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.218.231] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3BA6B45D.870FCF5A ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:41:33 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ATN sas.org, greenglow@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, intj-list yahoogroups.com, imagestream@yahoogroups.com Subject: Solutions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Svgec1.0.dN7.DOhfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How might this current wave of terrorism cease? While stopping more plane hijackings is rather easy by not letting arabs fly, no carry on baggage and an armed security person on every flight. (the marshal program) Indeed the last two are somewhat unimportant as long as you stop arabs from flying. The other means which are being reported as probable plans (targeting nuclear power plants, letting of a suitcase nuke etc...) are harder to stop and much worse. Peace talks are the usually the preferred method, however it is abundantly clear that this is simply not possible this time. Security lock down: Even removing all liberties even the most advanced security could not stop many of the remaining avenues terrorists have to wreak havoc. And the average person pays the greatest toll. War: Strike at them as a deterrence. It might stop by making them think of the consequence of any further terrorist attack. Problems: You will need to kill more than died in the attack (otherwise they may think that 1 dead arab for 1 dead american or westerner is all right) It could trigger world war III and end life as we know it. It might make make it worse. It might be worth considering, however should probably not be used. War: Obliterate them, annihilate them, simply no more left to be terrorists. Problems: You are wiping out an entire race. It won't be easy and could trigger WWIII and even the end of life on planet earth. If you don't attack a supposedly friendly arab nation, they might be so disgusted as to become the problem themselves. There are tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of arabs in America and around the western world. This would almost definitely cause the arabs in america to commit worse terrorist acts. This is not worth considering, the only way it could be done is to wipe out every arab, this would be difficult and bloody, and would turn other non arab nations and many citizens against the government. Section 1: Ok, this is right out of the TV series (and movie) La Femme Nikita, start a counter terrorism agency. It would track down and kill terrorists in a discrete manner. (it would be well beyond any such group currently in existence) Problems: Such an agency would need to have every bit of technology and would need to be well funded. They might find the problem to be very large. It would become ineffective if there were too many possible terrorist threats at the same time. This is very much a worth while consideration, however it is probably not the single answer. Remove Arabs: Remove all arabs from America (and other possible western countries targeted) and send them back to where they came from. No one needs die, sure it is a bit unfair to the innocent arabs, but it stops 99.9% of all possible means of terrorism. The only way they could commit a terrorist act is via an ICBM. Which the CIA or NSA or someone should be able to track down beforehand. Hijacking a plane from another country, however as soon as the plane is seen as going off course towards america the passenger records could be searched to see if it looks like it's a terrorist hijacked plane. If communication fails shoot it out of the sky. (most pilots after having warning shots from an F-22 fly by would turn around, if they don't it's obviously a terrorist) However if foreign airlines increase security and have no carry on baggage even this is unlikely. Finally they could try and get people of other races to commit terrorism for them, however this would be hard to do and rather unlikely. This should be seriously considered as the best solid down to earth no loss of life way out of this mess. Mind control: Though the term conjures unpleasant images it is a really good idea. We already have blocks in our mind making it more difficult to do stupid things. There are parts of our mind that means no matter how angry and destructive we become there is something stopping us from killing mass numbers of people, well there is normally. That's why people chose bombs when it is much easier to poison a water supply or release a deadly disease that would kill many more. This could be accomplished by social engineering, but that is too slow, or using remote viewers, or some kind of psychotronic device to make people less likely to do extreme things. It might be accomplished by many minds projecting the same thing. The trick is to have this alternative seriously considered. The problem is that it will probably not reach a level where it can stop all attacks without a greater level of sophistication. This should be done as there is no way to lose, it can only help any other scenario. If the section 1, mind control and removal of arabs options are taken in the right mix I see no way any arab terrorist could hope to do anything. Only the lives of terrorists would be taken by the section 1 plan, no innocents. John Berry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 20:13:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA08956; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:11:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:11:46 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Report from sci.physics.fusion Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:11:35 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3BA65381.32992CF6 ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <3BA65381.32992CF6 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA08931 Resent-Message-ID: <"FssRg3.0.oB2.ojhfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:48:52 -0600: >I would like to continue the debate about evidence for the >Mills effect within the P-F effect. I had made the >assertion that orphaned oxygen could provide a means to >detect the formation of hydrinos, an idea which was >dismissed. Let's look at some numbers. I didn't dismiss it completely Ed. It was my intention rather to point out that there *could* be circumstances in which no (or little) orphaned oxygen would exist. > >Mills says that to reach the first Mills level, 54.4 ev >would be given off from deuterium. Actually, only 40.8 eV. The figure of 54.4 assumes that one starts with a positive ion and an electron. >This means that when one >watt of excess power was being produced, oxygen would be >produced at about 12 ml/hr [22.4 L/mole*1 >watt*3600sec/hr*0.5 >oxygen/electron/(154ev*23063cal/mol/ev)]. My system is Where did the 154 eV come from? Also, there are 2 hydrogens per water molecule, and also 2 oxygen atoms / oxygen molecule, so unless I'm mistaken you missed a factor of 2 in there somewhere. Bottom line, for 54.4 eV I get 3.8 mL / hour at STP. (For 40.8 eV I get 5.1 mL/hr, and if they all shrink to n=1/5, then I get 0.64 mL/hr - see below). >capable of measuring a change in gas volume of 0.04 ml. >Consequently, I could easily see a growing volume of gas at >1 watt provided the hydrino only went to the first level. >For me to miss this effect, all of the hydrinos would have >to go to at least the sixth level. >From a post I made to Vortex in March of 2000: --------------------------------------------------------------------- In http://www.blacklightpower.com/techpres.pdf page 34, Mills gives a table of calculated binding energies for the second electron that turns hydrino into "hydrino-hydride" Hy-H (my abbrev.). The first four levels are: 3.047 eV, 6.61 eV, 11.23 eV, and 16.7 eV. To me this implies that any Hy-H above level four will reduce H+ resulting in Hy (hydrino - my abbrev.) and an H atom. These hydrinos thus having been returned to the active state are then free to partake in further shrinkage reactions. (Mills believes that once Hy-H has formed, it is no longer available for shrinkage - ergo inactive [my term]). So we might expect that any Hy-H compounds remaining in water will contain primarily Hy-H shrunken to at least the fourth level. At this point the electron binding energy is 16.7 eV (at least), so it is strongly bound, and hence any resulting compound is likely to be primarily ionic (IMO). -------------------------------------------------------------------------- IOW in an aqueous solution, we can expect that all hydrinos formed would go to at least the fifth level (i.e. n=1/5). Some would of course go further, so it is not unreasonable to suggest that the average could indeed be >= n=1/6. > >We know that some of the heat results from He4 formation. >If hydrinos are required to produce He4, the concentration >of hydrinos would have to increase to a sufficiently high >level that two of them could get together in a reasonable >time. The rate at which two hydrinos will interact will be >proportional to their concentration squared and to their >diffusion rate through the material. Regardless of now much >handwaving you want to do, their concentration must increase >before this reaction can occur. True, however not necessarily the problem that you imply. If it is true that only certain sites within any given cell are effective, then these particular sites may be responsible for hydrino formation, and the local concentration could be quite high (i.e. before they get a chance to diffuse too far away), particularly if the formation of these sites is a dynamic process. In this case shrinkage could occur rapidly resulting in a burst of heat that eventually destroys the local environment, terminating the conditions that led to its creation (locally). >This increase will be >accompanied by the formation of orphaned oxygen with a >corresponding pressure rise. The rise that is detected is >consistent with the amount of D dissolving within the Pd. >Of course, some uncertainty exists here that could mask a >small amount of hydrino formation. > >Also the question must be answered as to why in the P-F >effect are the hydrinos not produced immediately, with their >release of energy. Everyone who has studied the effect >using bulk Pd always sees a delay and the absence of heat if >the Pd does not load sufficiently. Why would the formation >of hydrinos care about the concentration of D within the >Pd? Possibly because the catalyst may be D itself in a three particle reaction. Needless to say three particle collisions within the Pd will be more frequent as the density of the D atoms in the Pd increases. >If the reaction involves only He4 formation, then this >question is easily answered. In this case, the rate will >depend at least on the concentration of dissolved D squared, >with "normal" orphaned oxygen produced. If hydrinos are >required to start the process, then orphaned oxygen caused >by their formation must also be taken into account. So far, >no evidence exists to suggest this added process. If the process is taking place *in* the Pd (just under the surface?), then it's the *same* orphaned oxygen that resulted from the absorption of the D into the Pd, because we're talking about the same D. This assumes that deuterinos once formed shrink rapidly within the metal, which in turn assumes that they don't get to hold on to free electrons. This is not unreasonable, when one takes into account that the Pd is full of free electrons anyway, that have managed to escape from their respective atoms (so why shouldn't the electron from hydrinohydride [or the D version thereof] be able to escape too?) Does this mean that the ionisation energy of the hydrinohydride needs to be compared to the Fermi energy of the metal? > >I'm not suggesting that the Mills effect does not occur. I'm >only saying that no evidence in the behavior of the P-F cell >is consistent with the need to add this additional process >to this one method. Except that it provides a path to fusion through screening. > >I suggest that requiring hydrino formation in the P-F effect >is not necessary for Mills to be correct in his claims or in >his theory. We can easily experience two or even many >different processes to produce these anomalous observations. > >Ed Agreed there may be more than one process at work, and hydrinos may even be a fantasy, but at the moment, they seem like the most likely solution to the riddle of CF to me. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 20:34:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA16502; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:33:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:33:13 -0700 Message-ID: <032b01c13ff2$92da4c60$6401a8c0 cs910664a> From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917104327.03844470 pop.mindspring.com> <01091713472400.01370@tyrannosaur> <021d01c13fcd$87fa06c0$6401a8c0@cs910664a> <01091722443300.01249@tyrannosaur> Subject: Re: Afghanistan Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:32:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"_I4iB2.0.m14.v1ifx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's very difficult having a discourse with someone who calls himself Standing Bear, but you have my sincere apologies referencing Soviets. I didn't realize I let that stand. I really meant to qualify that before hitting "send". I don't believe it of them, either. It's BS propaganda. My statement, "We need facts, history, and reasoned discourse" stands. I think you are missing my point entirely. I'm talking about eliminating terrorism. If the Koran has been interpreted in such a way that some groups (terrorists) are using it to justify mass slaughter, then obviously *somebody* is going to have to "educate them", (call it what you will) or- for our own survival as a species, they will have to be either imprisoned for life or killed. It's really that simple. The survival of the human race depends on it, and that supersedes all else. In the meanwhile, perhaps we should focus on ideas to improving the human condition. The amount of talent on this list is phenomenal. Let's do that. Colin Quinney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:44 AM Subject: Re: Afghanistan > There is an ancient and honorable Arab tradition called the > coffee house or shop, a small restaurant where the men of > the area talk over problems of the day. Some 'terrorism was > undoubtedly developed over melifluous conversations among > disparate and desparate people with shared bad experiences > of loss of homelands due to the winds of war. Many peoples > have been dispossesed throughout history. Southerners in > the United States often went west, carrying their bitterness > with them, taking it out in gunbattles and fights all over the > west, giving rise to popular folklore today. > Armenians were massacred and exiled in 1915 into > the present republik of Armenia, formerly an autonomous S.S.R. > and not of the CIS. The Soviets did many things, but bulldozing > widows is probably not one of them. Soviet soldiers had mothers > and fathers too. And upbringing. Mistakes they made; cruelty > they did, like making cluster bombs out explosive packed toys. > Nothing beats an idealogy run amok for cruelty > Pol Pot (Saloth Sar) was a prime example. This man is not Elvis > in a Kalamazoo laundromat in 1985. He was real, and may yet > live, and is as much a monster or more than Hitler. This > Johnnie learned his idealogy in France on the left bank of the > Seine. LIke Hitler, Sar may have been emboldened by the > world's forgetting of the millions of Armenians that had been > slaughtered by Kemal Ataturk's forces just because they were > a bit different. Moslem idealogues are no different than > Christian or Atheist idealogues except in their rationalizations > for murder on massive scale. The Armenians did not forget. > If some care to look, there is, or was, a restaurant in > Sacramento on J Street called 'Feenjan'. It is a local gathering > place for Armenians who settled nearby in the Sacramento > Valley to farm or work. Pictures of their brutalization by > Ataturk,s 'progressives' adorn the walls. They are not pretty. > When they ran into exile, where did they go? To the Soviets, > who welcomed them and set up an autonomous region for > them, more in a place where many of them lived and had > lived already. O, by the way, Russia did not instantly > become a socialist country in a 'magic' moment in 1918. That > process had been a progressive one since 1905. Study > your history, dear readers, before name calling and ignorant > dismissiveness. The Taliban need no defenders, especially those > who do not know of what they speak. > Their record has, and will in the future, spoken for itself > in liberal doses of the blood of its victims. > > Standing Bear > > > And by the way, egad, c'mon man, pinprick strikes were used > in Yugoslavia for years to 'excise the cancer' of > Milosevich and Karadzich to no avail. My favorite picture > is of the British Home Secretary on a mission of 'negotiation' > having to duck into a Sarajevo doorway just as it was blasted > by a benevelent Serbian artillery round. This Bin Laden will > require ground troops to find him, or rather find where he > used to be until he left a short time before. And > 're-education'? Where did the following writer learn that one. > My ex-uncle in law DIED in one of those 'centers' outside > Qui Nhon in 1975. His wife, on the other hand got her > 'diploma' right away. An NVA political officer drove some > 'sense' into her head with a 40 penny nail through the top > of her head after knocking my uncle out with a plaster > statue. He was conscious just long enough to watch his > wife of 40 years die in front of him. THAT is what > 're-education', that filthy word, means to me; and don't > you, who from your words seem never to have seen the > real world, try to sell it or sugar coat it. A fatuous > statement of "Gimme proof!" you want? Go to the > Vietnamese community in Sacramento and ask around! > Go alone if you dare!! Ask the brother of the murdered > man! Do it! Get a real education on the human costs > of liberalism and 'political correctness'!---and treason and > betrayal. > Real education is often just as prone to failure, and a prime > case if Iraq. Read the history of the British administration > from the 1920's to 1946 when it became independant (may be > off a year or two). It took three elections to elect a Mohammed > Mossadegh that took it all apart--6 years! The British DID > try to train a responsible government; the people preferred > demagogues and voted accordingly. No democracy is safe > if not in the soul of the people. > > > > On Monday 17 September 2001 16:07, Colin Quinney wrote: > > Bulldozing their widows? egad. Maybe the Soviets did that if > anybody did, > > but I find that kind of extremist propaganda distasteful. We > need facts, > > history, and reasoned discourse. Lets learn all we can about > what gave birth > > to this disease called terrorism in the first place, and then > treat it like > > a cancer. There are two ways to treat cancer and they are not > necessarily > > exclusive. Boost the immune system, and/or kill it with > surgery, > > chemotherapy, and radiation. It takes a knowledge of not only > alternative > > techniques, but the TYPE of cancer to determine what works > best.. and just > > like a cancer, there are different "types" of terrorists. > Bombing > > Afghanistan would be like ONLY using surgery to cut cancer > from the throat > > after it had spread to various organs in the body. > > > > Maybe a combination of a few selective US strikes, immediately > followed by > > re-education from a more responsible Islamic state is > required, but that's > > certainly not us. This "re-education" (a nasty word with bad > connotations, I > > admit) requires enormous funding. Perhaps every corporation in > the world > > should be taxed one half of one percent to help alleviate > these kinds of > > problems. What non-terrorist nation would object to this, > considering the > > alternative? > > > > Meanwhile, we protect ourselves. > > i.e: Central water supplies must be split into smaller "cells". > > > > Colin Quinney > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Standing Bear" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:47 PM > > Subject: Re: Afghanistan > > > > > > > On Monday 17 September 2001 07:47, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > > Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > > > > > > > > >Very useful information on Afgahnistan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/14/afghanistan/index.html > > > > > > > > This information is exaggerated. I have nothing good to say > > > about the > > > > Taliban, but I am sure they do not bury widows alive. That > > > kind of > > > > hyperbole makes the entire description suspect. Beware of > > > demonizing a > > > > whole culture or nation. > > > > > > > > - Jed > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you beware of misguided 'political correctness'. > > > There is now forming a new 'political correctness' just > > > as surely as in the great purges of the USSR in the > > > 1950's. At that time, people in the USSR practiced > > > a kind of 'self censor' so that they would not be > > > prosecuted for 'improper' speech or writing. As yet > > > we do not have that here. > > > The article from Salon magazine evidently > > > is supported by Salon to the extent that the Bin Laden > > > and Taliban forces are probably fully able to use their > > > money and mouthpieces (1930ish for lawyers in the > > > gangland era) to sue if it was a lie. Be also aware that > > > practitioners of 'political correctness' also have great > > > capacity to lie and use half-truths as a weapon along > > > with implied threats > > > It almost fits the character of an extremist > > > gang to do that to their widows. They pronounced > > > them unemployable in religious, and therefor unretractable > > > terms. That makes all of them ultimately wards of the > > > state, as no one has the capacity to take care of them. > > > They cannot care for them or refuse to, so therefore > > > they do with them what they do to villagers from > > > captured territory of Mr Rabbani's government in the > > > northeast----they massacre them by whatever means. > > > When democracy comes again to this poor country, > > > and it will, these mass graves will be found. Not > > > by you, who will now have a common cause with the > > > Taliban in not locating them, but by the new rulers > > > of the country, who will want the information in order > > > to prosecute the murderers. Too bad they will not > > > be able to prosecute the apologists too. > > > I remember Cambodia! I will never forget > > > Cambodia. The world should not forget either, no > > > matter how many 'politically correct' excuses for > > > humanity refuse to see. I realize this is a dialogue of > > > the deaf for some, but some will know. > > > Now back to rational discussion of what this > > > list is really all about.................physics, my first > love. > > > Sorry for the interruption > > > > > > Standing Bear > > > > > > see also the letter from Mr Mallove about the nukes > > > that Bin Laden has! > > > > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.280 / Virus Database: 147 - Release Date: > 9/11/2001 > > > > > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.280 / Virus Database: 147 - Release Date: 9/11/2001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 21:29:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA07106; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:28:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:28:32 -0700 From: ConexTom aol.com Message-ID: <13f.19a0886.28d82763 aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 00:28:19 EDT Subject: Re: Terroist Solutions To: vortex-l eskimo.com, prj@mail.msen.com CC: ConexTom aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_13f.19a0886.28d82763_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 Resent-Message-ID: <"pwkdy1.0.vk1.lrifx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_13f.19a0886.28d82763_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Once can easily solve the terrorist Airplane problem, with a computer program that shuts down the plane engine, so the plane can only be run from a ground airport by radio waves in a terrorist takeover of a plane, to bring to bring the plane back to safety; and such technology is presently available since the 1940's, since the Nazi's had this technology in their planes. Also one does not need to curtail basic liberties, to deal with terrorists, since the U.S. has surveillance technologies, which when following proper legal minimization procedures will catch all of the terrorists, the only problems is that, many of the U.S. agencies using the surveillance technologies, let the terrorist in the country, due to other goals not true to citizens of the U.S. Also many of the government agencies do not minimize the use of surveillance technologies, which is DOD policy and law, and they spend much of there time misusing surveillance technologies, which causes them to waste their time, and overlook important pieces of information, and also they develop bad historical habits, which generate into the future, future disasters like a holographic program run amuck, and can not be shut down, since it has been programmed with the misuse of surveillance technologies. Respectively, Thomas Clark www.rhfweb.com tom rhfweb.com --part1_13f.19a0886.28d82763_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Once can easily solve the terrorist Airplane problem, with a
computer program that shuts down the plane engine, so the
plane can only be run from a ground airport by radio waves in a
terrorist takeover of a plane, to bring to bring the plane back to
safety; and such technology is presently available since the
1940's, since the Nazi's had this technology in their planes. Also
one does not need to curtail basic liberties, to deal with
terrorists, since the U.S. has surveillance technologies, which
when following proper legal minimization procedures will catch
all of the terrorists, the only problems is that, many of the U.S.
agencies using the surveillance technologies, let the terrorist in
the country, due to other goals not true to citizens of the U.S.
Also many of the government agencies do not minimize the use
of surveillance technologies, which is DOD policy and law, and
they spend much of there time misusing surveillance
technologies, which causes them to waste their time, and
overlook important pieces of information, and also they develop
bad historical habits, which generate into the future, future
disasters like a holographic program run amuck, and can not be
shut down, since it has been programmed with the misuse of
surveillance technologies.


Respectively,

Thomas Clark
www.rhfweb.com
tom rhfweb.com --part1_13f.19a0886.28d82763_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 22:29:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA27856; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:28:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:28:50 -0700 Message-ID: <036801c14002$bf145ea0$6401a8c0 cs910664a> From: "Colin Quinney" To: "\"Standing Bear\"" Cc: Subject: Fw: Afghanistan Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:28:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"lzr_X3.0.7p6.Hkjfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Standing Bear, You were a bit hard on me, but I just re-read your post to Vo., and I admit that you are basically correct. Like many folk, I'm not that educated in what has happened with world history or even recently. What happened on Sept. 11 was my own personal wake up call, and I'm trying to get educated about world events, FAST. Since then, I've been monitoring many email lists for 10 or 12 hours/day and reading web sites about some of the Middle Eastern country's radical movements.. I've been doing lot of fast reading and as a result I'll publicly admit now that I am sh*t scared out of me drawers. At the same time, like many others, I'm rapidly trying to put together some ideas for prevention or protection from terrorists who are probably going to try using weapons of mass destruction. Also- ideas for improving energy usage, because if energy is part of the problem then I feel that I'm at least doing *something* useful. So yes, I might be a naive about world history, but are all my ideas? Law of averages says not. I've been on Vortex and other similar lists for about 6 years yet I'm usually too shy to say much on-list. Now I'm saying to myself that we can no longer afford that attitude from quiet list members. There are other "listeners" out there just like myself that need to speak up now. I might (or YOU might) just mention an idea that makes perfect sense or sparks a thought in someone else- to a eureka moment. I'm talking about simple stuff really- like new inexpensive methods of distributing and cleaning up our water supplies instead of using chlorine in a "vulnerable" central system. There's discussions here about power grid systems and nuclear plants and I really think we need to come up with ideas to improve efficiencies, costs, and especially of reducing the dangers. Deregulating the power grid with tax incentives to get more wind electric generators and more solar electrics on line is a start. It means perhaps one less target for the bad guys. And IMO, low grade heat ideas are NOT to be sniffed at. Minto wheels can run off low grade heat and I believe that they are very efficient. They just need some redesigning. Hot water heating from solar ponds and other storage mediums takes a big load off the grid. Build smaller nuclear plants. I want to hear some innovative ideas for desalinization. What the world needs is inexpensive clean water. Let's face it- most of us are here to improve the human condition. Perhaps what we require is a central place to forward and combine all of our best suggestions, instead of bits here and there from many well meaning folks, on the various and sundry lists. Like a think tank list for pragmatic ideas. One or two people person on each list will forward the best suggestions to a central list. IMO, none of us can afford "inventor's disease" anymore, (paranoia about theft of intellectual property). Best Regards, Colin Quinney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Standing Bear" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:44 AM Subject: Re: Afghanistan > There is an ancient and honorable Arab tradition called the > coffee house or shop, a small restaurant where the men of > the area talk over problems of the day. Some 'terrorism was > undoubtedly developed over melifluous conversations among > disparate and desparate people with shared bad experiences > of loss of homelands due to the winds of war. Many peoples > have been dispossesed throughout history. Southerners in > the United States often went west, carrying their bitterness > with them, taking it out in gunbattles and fights all over the > west, giving rise to popular folklore today. > Armenians were massacred and exiled in 1915 into > the present republik of Armenia, formerly an autonomous S.S.R. > and not of the CIS. The Soviets did many things, but bulldozing > widows is probably not one of them. Soviet soldiers had mothers > and fathers too. And upbringing. Mistakes they made; cruelty > they did, like making cluster bombs out explosive packed toys. > Nothing beats an idealogy run amok for cruelty > Pol Pot (Saloth Sar) was a prime example. This man is not Elvis > in a Kalamazoo laundromat in 1985. He was real, and may yet > live, and is as much a monster or more than Hitler. This > Johnnie learned his idealogy in France on the left bank of the > Seine. LIke Hitler, Sar may have been emboldened by the > world's forgetting of the millions of Armenians that had been > slaughtered by Kemal Ataturk's forces just because they were > a bit different. Moslem idealogues are no different than > Christian or Atheist idealogues except in their rationalizations > for murder on massive scale. The Armenians did not forget. > If some care to look, there is, or was, a restaurant in > Sacramento on J Street called 'Feenjan'. It is a local gathering > place for Armenians who settled nearby in the Sacramento > Valley to farm or work. Pictures of their brutalization by > Ataturk,s 'progressives' adorn the walls. They are not pretty. > When they ran into exile, where did they go? To the Soviets, > who welcomed them and set up an autonomous region for > them, more in a place where many of them lived and had > lived already. O, by the way, Russia did not instantly > become a socialist country in a 'magic' moment in 1918. That > process had been a progressive one since 1905. Study > your history, dear readers, before name calling and ignorant > dismissiveness. The Taliban need no defenders, especially those > who do not know of what they speak. > Their record has, and will in the future, spoken for itself > in liberal doses of the blood of its victims. > > Standing Bear > > > And by the way, egad, c'mon man, pinprick strikes were used > in Yugoslavia for years to 'excise the cancer' of > Milosevich and Karadzich to no avail. My favorite picture > is of the British Home Secretary on a mission of 'negotiation' > having to duck into a Sarajevo doorway just as it was blasted > by a benevelent Serbian artillery round. This Bin Laden will > require ground troops to find him, or rather find where he > used to be until he left a short time before. And > 're-education'? Where did the following writer learn that one. > My ex-uncle in law DIED in one of those 'centers' outside > Qui Nhon in 1975. His wife, on the other hand got her > 'diploma' right away. An NVA political officer drove some > 'sense' into her head with a 40 penny nail through the top > of her head after knocking my uncle out with a plaster > statue. He was conscious just long enough to watch his > wife of 40 years die in front of him. THAT is what > 're-education', that filthy word, means to me; and don't > you, who from your words seem never to have seen the > real world, try to sell it or sugar coat it. A fatuous > statement of "Gimme proof!" you want? Go to the > Vietnamese community in Sacramento and ask around! > Go alone if you dare!! Ask the brother of the murdered > man! Do it! Get a real education on the human costs > of liberalism and 'political correctness'!---and treason and > betrayal. > Real education is often just as prone to failure, and a prime > case if Iraq. Read the history of the British administration > from the 1920's to 1946 when it became independant (may be > off a year or two). It took three elections to elect a Mohammed > Mossadegh that took it all apart--6 years! The British DID > try to train a responsible government; the people preferred > demagogues and voted accordingly. No democracy is safe > if not in the soul of the people. > > > > On Monday 17 September 2001 16:07, Colin Quinney wrote: > > Bulldozing their widows? egad. Maybe the Soviets did that if > anybody did, > > but I find that kind of extremist propaganda distasteful. We > need facts, > > history, and reasoned discourse. Lets learn all we can about > what gave birth > > to this disease called terrorism in the first place, and then > treat it like > > a cancer. There are two ways to treat cancer and they are not > necessarily > > exclusive. Boost the immune system, and/or kill it with > surgery, > > chemotherapy, and radiation. It takes a knowledge of not only > alternative > > techniques, but the TYPE of cancer to determine what works > best.. and just > > like a cancer, there are different "types" of terrorists. > Bombing > > Afghanistan would be like ONLY using surgery to cut cancer > from the throat > > after it had spread to various organs in the body. > > > > Maybe a combination of a few selective US strikes, immediately > followed by > > re-education from a more responsible Islamic state is > required, but that's > > certainly not us. This "re-education" (a nasty word with bad > connotations, I > > admit) requires enormous funding. Perhaps every corporation in > the world > > should be taxed one half of one percent to help alleviate > these kinds of > > problems. What non-terrorist nation would object to this, > considering the > > alternative? > > > > Meanwhile, we protect ourselves. > > i.e: Central water supplies must be split into smaller "cells". > > > > Colin Quinney > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Standing Bear" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:47 PM > > Subject: Re: Afghanistan > > > > > > > On Monday 17 September 2001 07:47, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > > Eugene F. Mallove wrote: > > > > > > > > >Very useful information on Afgahnistan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/14/afghanistan/index.html > > > > > > > > This information is exaggerated. I have nothing good to say > > > about the > > > > Taliban, but I am sure they do not bury widows alive. That > > > kind of > > > > hyperbole makes the entire description suspect. Beware of > > > demonizing a > > > > whole culture or nation. > > > > > > > > - Jed > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe you beware of misguided 'political correctness'. > > > There is now forming a new 'political correctness' just > > > as surely as in the great purges of the USSR in the > > > 1950's. At that time, people in the USSR practiced > > > a kind of 'self censor' so that they would not be > > > prosecuted for 'improper' speech or writing. As yet > > > we do not have that here. > > > The article from Salon magazine evidently > > > is supported by Salon to the extent that the Bin Laden > > > and Taliban forces are probably fully able to use their > > > money and mouthpieces (1930ish for lawyers in the > > > gangland era) to sue if it was a lie. Be also aware that > > > practitioners of 'political correctness' also have great > > > capacity to lie and use half-truths as a weapon along > > > with implied threats > > > It almost fits the character of an extremist > > > gang to do that to their widows. They pronounced > > > them unemployable in religious, and therefor unretractable > > > terms. That makes all of them ultimately wards of the > > > state, as no one has the capacity to take care of them. > > > They cannot care for them or refuse to, so therefore > > > they do with them what they do to villagers from > > > captured territory of Mr Rabbani's government in the > > > northeast----they massacre them by whatever means. > > > When democracy comes again to this poor country, > > > and it will, these mass graves will be found. Not > > > by you, who will now have a common cause with the > > > Taliban in not locating them, but by the new rulers > > > of the country, who will want the information in order > > > to prosecute the murderers. Too bad they will not > > > be able to prosecute the apologists too. > > > I remember Cambodia! I will never forget > > > Cambodia. The world should not forget either, no > > > matter how many 'politically correct' excuses for > > > humanity refuse to see. I realize this is a dialogue of > > > the deaf for some, but some will know. > > > Now back to rational discussion of what this > > > list is really all about.................physics, my first > love. > > > Sorry for the interruption > > > > > > Standing Bear > > > > > > see also the letter from Mr Mallove about the nukes > > > that Bin Laden has! > > > > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.280 / Virus Database: 147 - Release Date: > 9/11/2001 > > > > > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.280 / Virus Database: 147 - Release Date: 9/12/2001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 22:42:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA31762; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:41:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:41:51 -0700 Message-ID: <01C13FCA.7038D140.dequickert ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Solutions Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:45:16 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8K_eB2.0.8m7.Uwjfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday, September 17, 2001 7:42 PM, John Berry wrote: > How might this current wave of terrorism cease? > Not by force. IMHO the best solution/preventative measure we could take would be to use that $40 Billion to improve the lives of common people in the 'problem' areas. Instead of bombing Afghanistan into the stone age (not necessary, they're about there already), we could rebuild their infrastructure with a fraction of that money, and show the world by example what we are truly made of. Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 17 23:29:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA11074; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:27:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:27:54 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 02:35:34 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Colin Quinney cc: "\"Standing Bear\"" , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Afghanistan In-Reply-To: <036801c14002$bf145ea0$6401a8c0 cs910664a> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Dq0BU.0.yi2.gbkfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Colin, A simple beginning tool for power and water is the 11 to 15 foot 'passe' satellite antenna dish. Find one that is still up and look at the design.... they are fairly simple. If you do not want to worry about having to make sun tracking systems than take the general curve and make it a long dish that is curved similar to the path of the sun. With this design the hot spot simply moves sideways and one can use a long boiler or long heat pipe, I vavor the latter. These dishes, at 15 feet kick out a usable 12 to 15 KW thermal in the sun. You cover the inside with the best reflector you can. A dish 11 foot will set a 1 inch steel pipe on fire in full sun in spring or fall in Ohio A 19 inch precision glass dish is one of my demos.... I put a piece of 16 to 18 AWG stainless steel wire at the focal point and it sets it on fire like a sparkler. A stick makes a POP sound as it flames on. You can get clean drinking water, electric power and refridgeration from such a dish. Some state allow you to sell power back to the grid IF you buy commercial and IF you have approved transfer gear. A small farm could net 100 to 800 dollars a day. J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 00:11:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA23345; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 00:10:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 00:10:20 -0700 From: ConexTom aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:08:04 EDT Subject: Masons, Illuminati, The 4 Lights in the Universe! To: DEACH topica.com, prj@mail.msen.com, svpvril@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l eskimo.com CC: ConexTom aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_b8.1b77befd.28d84cd4_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 Resent-Message-ID: <"_XKDx2.0.hi5.SDlfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_b8.1b77befd.28d84cd4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Masons, Illuminati, The 4 Lights There are 4 lights in the Universe & 2 Spirits one natural and one artificial: True God & True Spirit, True Socialism & True Capitalism (Natural God) - A True Mason (Strong Ethical Natural Decentralized Capitalism, Moderate Ethical Decentralized Natural Socialism) (True Scotland?) (My personal primary focus) . Natural Lights: 1.Colored Natural Physical Light the Sun (Photons) 2.Colorless Natural Spiritual Light the Mind (Gravitons) False God & False Spirit, False Socialism and False Capitalism (Artificial God -Devil)- The Illuminati (False Unethical Centralized socialism, False Unethical Centralized Capitalism) Artificial Lights: 3. Artificial mechanical colored physical Light the Artificial Sun (Genetic Clones) 4. Artificial mechanical colorless Light the Artificial Mind (AI, Computers, Lasers, Directed Energies) The artificial energies can change our natural bodies, but they can not match perfectly the natural spirit and they can not change the natural spirit, and the true spirit, which is eternal, timeless and perfectly free, and reflects the artificial energies back onto the artificial creators in forms of their own artificial desires. Respectfully, Thomas Clark www.rhfweb.com\personal tom rhfweb.com --part1_b8.1b77befd.28d84cd4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Masons, Illuminati, The 4 Lights

There are 4 lights in the Universe & 2 Spirits one natural and
one artificial:

True God & True Spirit, True Socialism & True Capitalism
(Natural God) - A True Mason (Strong Ethical Natural
Decentralized Capitalism, Moderate  Ethical
Decentralized Natural Socialism) (True Scotland?)
     (My personal primary focus) .

Natural Lights:
1.Colored Natural Physical Light the Sun (Photons)
2.Colorless Natural Spiritual Light the Mind
(Gravitons)

False God & False Spirit, False Socialism and False Capitalism
(Artificial God -Devil)- The Illuminati (False Unethical
Centralized socialism,  False Unethical
Centralized Capitalism)

Artificial Lights:
3. Artificial mechanical colored physical Light the
Artificial Sun (Genetic Clones)
4. Artificial mechanical colorless Light the Artificial
Mind  (AI, Computers, Lasers, Directed
Energies)

The artificial energies can change our natural bodies, but they
can not match perfectly the natural spirit and they can not change the
natural spirit, and the true spirit, which is eternal, timeless and perfectly free,
and reflects the artificial energies back onto the artificial creators in forms of
their own artificial desires.


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
www.rhfweb.com\personal
tom rhfweb.com --part1_b8.1b77befd.28d84cd4_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 04:01:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA13458; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 04:01:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 04:01:16 -0700 Message-ID: <00c101c14031$ee1ae640$ac8f209a ggrf30j> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917122146.00aa0738 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:05:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"m-z8N2.0.CI3.ybofx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed gave a link to a BBC news analysis by Professor Knapton of the inevitability of the building collapse. It has been mentioned on the world news that the buildings were designed to withstand a hit from an airliner. Both of them withstood direct hits. Congratulations to the structural engineers - NOT! What was the point of this if the buildings would totally collapse after an hour or so? It was said that no building could stand the heat of a jet fuel (kerosene/ paraffin) fire for more than two hours. This seems like bollocks to me. Most of the jet fuel went straight though the open plan offices and out the other side - hence the enormous fireballs from the other side of the impacts. That fuel left inside the building would have been mostly combusted in the first few minutes. What kept the fire burning was the office desks, furniture, carpets, filing cabinets, plastic bodied photocopiers, computers etc, etc. What felled the towers was a "normal" fire. Why was there no effective sprinkler system to cope with this eventuality if they had thought of a plane crash when the WTC was designed? My guess is that because of the nature of the offices (full of computers, lots of paper records) they were using a gas quenching fire control system, possibly using Inergen gas (or CFC's if they hadn't updated in the last few years). These systems work by releasing "inert" gases into a space which will instantly quench a fire by reducing the local concentration of oxygen but still allow people to breath. They depend upon being used in a confined space! They are used primarily to protect valuable data because, unlike other methods of fire control, they do not damage computers paper records etc. The hijacks were possible because of the very lax security that America had on internal flights. It had been said this is because businessmen wouldn't put up with the lengthy check in process that we in most of the rest of the world use. Time was money. If the scenario above is correct, the towers collapsed because the fire systems were only designed to protect the business information in internal fires and not the buildings in plane strikes. Maybe they thought this would save money... Nick Palmer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 06:38:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA25095; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 06:38:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 06:38:08 -0700 Sender: chuck cougar.atl.s2systems.com Message-ID: <3BA75429.4D65BE8E bigfoot.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:03:21 -0400 From: Charlie Hodgson Organization: Society for Real Time X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917122146.00aa0738 pop.mindspring.com> <00c101c14031$ee1ae640$ac8f209a@ggrf30j> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jgYDv.0.z76.0vqfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: > Why was there no effective sprinkler system to cope > with this eventuality if they had thought of a plane crash > when the WTC was designed? > > My guess is that because of the nature of the offices (full of > computers, lots of paper records) they were using a gas quenching > fire control system, possibly using Inergen gas (or CFC's if they > hadn't updated in the last few years). No, the buildings used typical water sprinklers. Halon (et. al.) systems are secondary systems installed in computer rooms and the like. Remember, there were no office computers, fax machines or office copiers (with limited exception) when these buildings were built. Typical fires start in a small area and can be effectively controlled by sprinklers. There isn't a lot of data available for what happens when a jet hits a building. It was estimated that temperatures reached 14,000F. Almost EVERYTHING we do as a people is new, and while every effort is made to lessen the chance of human loss, mostly we learn by tragic experience. Fire codes, building codes, safety regulations and the like are all the result of some tragic incident. We learn from these misakes and make things better. 80 to 90% of the occupants made it out (based on occupancy and number of people missing). This is not a bad number. 100% would have been better. Every few years it seems some night club goes up in flames with a loss of 90+% of the patrons. With only a single story. What failed misserably is the human systems. Security in building 2 telling people to return to thier floors when they felt they needed to get out. This wasted valuable time, for the occupants of the fist building to collapse. No, security could not have imagined that a plane would hit the second building, and in normal circumstances a fire in one building wouldn't affect the other. In most cases a fire on one floor doesn't effect many other floors. This was an exceptional situation, and wednesday morning safety experts have all the answers, as they always seem to do. The building collapse was tragic and most likely unavoidable. > The hijacks were possible because of the very lax security > that America had on internal flights. It had been said this > is because businessmen wouldn't put up with the lengthy check > in process that we in most of the rest of the world use. Security is the same whether it's a domestic or international flight. There is no indication of a security failure. The weapons used to hijack the planes where not restricted items in the US. I have taken my swiss army knife on many international flights. I've borded planes in Newark, JFK, Atlanta, Nice, Paris, London, Glascow and Brussels with it. It was caught only once, in Montego Bay, Jamaica. The European security never found it. This is not to say that security cannot be better. What Europe has is better trained and paid security. This is where the U.S. need to get to, but again these measures may not have averted the disaster. > If the scenario above is correct, the towers collapsed because > the fire systems were only designed to protect the business > information in internal fires and not the buildings in plane > strikes. Maybe they thought this would save money... Again, this assumption is wrong. Safety of people always comes first in our building and fire codes. Charlie From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 07:18:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07939; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:17:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:17:06 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010918100750.00aa42d8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:17:31 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism In-Reply-To: <00c101c14031$ee1ae640$ac8f209a ggrf30j> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917122146.00aa0738 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"9Fc4S3.0.zx1.YTrfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: >It has been mentioned on the world >news that the buildings were designed to withstand a hit from an airliner. >Both of them withstood direct hits. Yes. That is astounding, and a tribute to structural engineering. >Congratulations to the structural engineers - NOT! What was the point of >this if the buildings would totally collapse after an hour or so? The point is to allow people to escape. It worked. Most people did get out in time, and more might have if they had been told to leave. >It was said that no building could stand the heat of a jet fuel (kerosene/ >paraffin) fire for more than two hours. This seems like bollocks to me. >Most of the jet fuel went straight though the open plan offices and out >the other side - hence the enormous fireballs from the other side of the >impacts. I do not think so. There was no major fire at first on the street level below the building. There would have been if burning jet fuel had gone out the window. >That fuel left inside the building would have been mostly combusted in the >first few minutes. That's nonsense. If that amount of fuel burned completely in few minutes, it would vaporize the steel, not just melt it. The building would have collapsed immediately. >Why was there no effective sprinkler system to cope with this eventuality >if they had thought of a plane crash when the WTC was designed? No fire suppression system could begin to cope with this eventuality. Even fission reactor containment buildings might fail, according to some experts quoted in The Nation. We would have to make all buildings like Egyptian pyramids to withstand this kind of thing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 07:34:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA12736; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:32:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:32:02 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010918102347.0345cd88 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:30:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: N. Y. Times article about jet fuel explosions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"yuimk.0.q63.Xhrfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/18/science/18BOMB.html (This refutes Nick Palmer's claims, by the way.) Some quotes: Making Planes Safer by Making Fuels Safer, by W. J. Broad Crashed jets do not as a rule explode. They burn. And that, scientists say, raises the possibility that advanced fuels may one day make commercial planes safer, less likely to flare with the intensity of the jets that slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Even without safer fuels, planes make relatively poor bombs, aviation experts say, diminishing their appeal as weapons. The problem for any potential bomber is the absence of large amounts of oxidizer -- the crucial ingredient for fast burning and explosions. A Boeing 767, like the ones that crashed into the World Trade Center, can carry some 20,000 gallons of jet fuel, which is similar to kerosene. But only a tiny fraction of that can burn explosively unless lots of oxygen is added to the fuel to make a volatile mix. Experts agree it was the steady fire that eventually brought down the twin towers, not the initial fiery blast. . . . In crashes, scientists said, little of the chemical energy in the fuel is released at the time of the impact, and that is why auto crashes do not usually result in large blasts. . . . Algerian terrorists tried an even more elaborate plot over the winter holiday season in 1994, seeking to turn a commercial jet into a fuel bomb. After hijacking an Air France Airbus A300 in Algiers, the terrorists flew to Marseille and demanded about three times as much fuel as it would take to get to Paris, their professed destination. Some 170 hostages were aboard. French authorities "put two and two together," said F. Robert van der Linden, an aviation curator at the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum, and stormed the jet, killing the terrorists. The French found 20 sticks of dynamite ready to blow the plane apart in what the Interior minister, Charles Pasqua, called a "suicide operation over Paris." [So much for the theory that Tom Clancy thought of it first!] In the future, experts say, advanced new fuels may reduce the danger of midair explosions and even suicide crashes by reducing the chance that planes can erupt into fireballs. . . . [End] - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 08:05:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA23519; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:04:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:04:47 -0700 Message-ID: <00cf01c14053$b772c5a0$68181ad8 oemcomputer> From: "bruce meland" To: Cc: "Remy C." , "Lynn C. Loomis" , Subject: Fw: Corporate Media Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:08:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"QhZOj1.0.Pl5.FAsfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A ----- Original Message ----- From: John Bryan To: bruce meland Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:00 AM Subject: Corporate Media > > > >>Forward this on! Corporate media is SO manipulative- and the sad > >>thing is, it works!. . . please spread the word. . . > >> > >> > > >> > This was written by a student in Brazil, and sent to Indymedia. > >> > > >> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > > >> >> CNN USING 1991 FOOTAGE of celebrating > >> >> Palistinians to manipulate you (english) > >> >> by Marcio 10:32pm Wed Sep 12 '01 (Modified on > >> >> 2:17am Thu Sep 13 '01) - Indymedia.org Newswire > >> >> http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=63288 > >> >> > >> >>> I'd like to add some ideas from here, down south. There's an > >>important > >> >>>point in the power of press, specifically the power of CNN. > >> >>> > >> >>> All around the world we are subjected to 3 or 4 huge news > >>distributors, > >> >>>and one of them - as you well know - is CNN. Very > >> >>> well, I guess all of you have been seeing (just as I've been) > >>images from > >> >>>this company. In particular, one set of images called my > >>attencion: the > >> >>>Palestinians celebrating the bombing, out on the streets, > >>eating some cake > >> >>>and making funny faces for the camera. > >> >>> > >> >>> Well, THOSE IMAGES WERE SHOT BACK IN 1991!!! Those are > >>images of > >> >>>Palestinians celebrating the invasion of Kuwait! It's simply > >>unacceptable > >> >>>that a super-power of cumminications as CNN uses images which > >>do not > >> >>>correspond to the reality in talking about so serious an issue. > >> >>> > >> >>> A teacher of mine, here in Brazil, has videotapes recorded in > >>1991, with > >> >>>the very same images; he's been sending emails > >> >>> to CNN, Globo (the major TV network in Brazil) and > >>newspapers, denouncing > >> >>>what I myself classify as a crime against the public opinion. > >>If anyone of > >> >>>you has access to this kind of files, serch for it. In the > >>meanwhile, I'll > >> >>>try to 'put my hands' on a copy of this tape. > >> >>> > >> >>> But now, think for a moment about the impact of such images. > >>Your people > >> >>>is hurt, emotionally fragile, and this kind > >> >>> broadcast have very high possibility of causing waves of > >>anger and rage > >> >>>against Palestinians. It's simply irresponsible to show images > >>such as > >> >>>those. > >> >>> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 14:35:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA00609; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:33:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:33:24 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:50:34 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Another surprising (possible) hydrino confirmation To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <002501c14059$a8b0a360$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <00f001c13d7c$2975a760$aa69fea9 cpq> <5.0.2.1.2.20010910170932.025f6658 pop.mindspring.com> <005001c13a47$b68a71e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9D3692.A2D467CB@ix.netcom.com> <006801c13a57$8e139ba0$aa69fea9 cpq> <006001c13b10$5ef255a0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> <7jhtptg4m0h8o9dr3h9af7r1cgnpp2b7g7 4ax.com> <003201c13be3$3bb335e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3B9FEBF7.AE478622@ix.netcom.com> <004201c13bff$7b1111a0$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BA0F48C.1ABECED6@ix.netcom.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010914155948.02b4b9d0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010917163406.0385cd98 pop.mindspring.com> <002201c13fcd$306426c0$aa69fea9 cpq> Resent-Message-ID: <"9hfWK2.0.L7.Ssxfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This blurb appears on today's HSG forum from a Dr. James Watson. I doubt if it is THE James Watson, the nobel fellow - is he still alive even? "I am enclosing a picture taken by us at the VAMC/CDI Quantum Research Lab of the ATP rotating protein molecule, which we named "BOYERS WHEELS", (1700 x 38 to the -10th Power) depicting the ever growing wave shape that is amplified as it traverses across a "Quantum Motherboard", producing a 50% increase in energy. I am also enclosing for the edification of the Group, a blurb that he wrote about his work, which I feel, documents and substantiates your work." This would be MAJOR... if THE Dr. James Watson believes that his findings substantiate Mills' hydrino work. And the big surprise is that the work finds "free energy" at the very core of biological metabolism (ATP / ADP). The writer apparently attributes this to Mill's theory, but I can find nothing else about it on the web, having just done a cursory web search. In the past, biochemists have been struck by the remarkable efficiency of this energy pathway, but assumed that it was within the confines of traditional physics. I would be interested in the opinion of Mill's detractors on this forum who also happen to be medical profeesionals. Are there any who are tuned in just now ;-} Also: Re: Nobel Prize Winner Dr. Paul Boyer ------------------------------------------ ...with his permission we named our rotating energy wheels, "BOYERS WHEELS" WHICH ARE DEPICTING HIS ATP ROTATION AND RELEASING 50% FREE ENERGY, From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 16:16:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17766; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:15:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:15:13 -0700 Message-Id: <200109182315.TAA10629 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Fwd: candle Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:06:00 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZJrLu.0.SL4.1Mzfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just announced on the radio ... The U.S. has asked that everyone step out on their lawns tonight at 10:30 (10:30 EASTERN TIME.... 9:30 Central, 8:30 Mountain, 7:30 Pacific) and light a candle. They will be taking a satellite picture of the U.S. and posting it on the news tomorrow morning. Please pass this on to as many people as possible. ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 16:49:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05513; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:48:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:48:19 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:55:57 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: Search for local terms, sayings...: (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"x0Z8G1.0.nL1.1rzfx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I am looking for turns of phrase relating to dunder-headed-ness or fool sayings.... Examples: Shallow in the think Tank wrapped too tight one oar in the water Please add any and all you know of. These are going to be used to show some foreign students examples of loo loos off the port bow of US language.... Lost lock ( as in phase locked loop ) signal equal to noise level scrambler switched in no de-scrambler in circuit bubbles in the think tanks tanks are all foamed up mental compression of an over ripe tomato functioning at a high speed crawl wearing full Heat Shields and searching the freezer no too tighly wrapped not playing with a full deck of cards Add, please From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 17:10:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA19893; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:09:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:09:49 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:17:35 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sci.electromag post-FWD In-Reply-To: <199810131756.MAA07953 mail11.jump.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"xUz9w1.0.is4.D9-fx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What is sci . electromag? Please. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 17:15:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22787; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:15:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:15:07 -0700 Sender: hoyt eskimo.com Message-ID: <3BA7B8D5.1DE26718 home.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:12:53 -0700 From: "Hoyt Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917122146.00aa0738 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010918100750.00aa42d8@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"09P2V1.0.tZ5.AE-fx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > No fire suppression system could begin to cope with this eventuality. Even > fission reactor containment buildings might fail, according to some experts > quoted in The Nation. We would have to make all buildings like Egyptian > pyramids to withstand this kind of thing. > How about having tubular structural members (as a building in Pittsburg is, as I recall) filled with water or a high heat of fusion salt. Better still, have a large amount of water flowing downward through them. Alternatively, have them coated with that English hairdresser's super plastic goo (similar to space shuttle tiles) announced a few years ago. Hoyt Stearns Phoenix From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 17:19:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA24866; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:18:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:18:53 -0700 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:19:14 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: Search for local terms, sayings...: (fwd) Resent-Message-ID: <"uJHUJ.0.N46.jH-fx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I am looking for turns of phrase relating to dunder-headed-ness or "he's like a dim bulb in a dead socket." r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 17:59:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA04803; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:58:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:58:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA7EB4D.1E80E3CA mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:48:13 -0400 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917122146.00aa0738 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010918100750.00aa42d8@pop.mindspring.com> <3BA7B8D5.1DE26718@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GytFR1.0.zA1._s-fx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: They are coated...with something that boils away....cooling.... However they did not plan for the high temperatures Normal office fire takes 4 hours before weakens steel... The elevators and utilities and such are routed through the central core...were cut when planes hit.... steve "Hoyt Stearns Jr." wrote: > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > No fire suppression system could begin to cope with this eventuality. Even > > fission reactor containment buildings might fail, according to some experts > > quoted in The Nation. We would have to make all buildings like Egyptian > > pyramids to withstand this kind of thing. > > > > How about having tubular structural members (as a > building in Pittsburg is, > as I recall) filled with water or a high heat of fusion > salt. Better still, > have a large amount of water flowing downward through > them. Alternatively, > have them coated with that English hairdresser's super > plastic goo (similar to > space shuttle tiles) > announced a few years ago. > > Hoyt Stearns > Phoenix From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 18:21:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA15520; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:19:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:19:54 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: candle Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:19:43 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <200109182315.TAA10629 mercury.mv.net> In-Reply-To: <200109182315.TAA10629 mercury.mv.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA15481 Resent-Message-ID: <"PhL9e2.0.Lo3.vA_fx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Eugene F. Mallove's message of Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:06:00 -0400: > > > >Just announced on the radio ... > > >The U.S. has asked that everyone step out on their lawns tonight at >10:30 >(10:30 EASTERN TIME.... 9:30 Central, 8:30 Mountain, 7:30 Pacific) [snip] Will it be dark at 7:30 Pacific? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 18:53:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA03755; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:52:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:52:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:00:14 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: sno cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Thermal Flux ...Scientists fight terrorism In-Reply-To: <3BA7EB4D.1E80E3CA mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"snHGA2.0.Zw.Uf_fx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo. The main issue with fires like the one we are discussing is thermal flux. This mens there is a lot of molecular motion... and not matter what you do... up to a point, there will be "more to take its place" The only possible counter to this would be to use a compound remedy. I know of a material suite which can stand off 8,400 watts-cm square ... this would have to be backstopped with a LOT ..a LOT of liquid helium ... Lower the thermal action/cold, high heat stand off, not support combustion. On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, sno wrote: > > They are coated...with something that > boils away....cooling.... > > However they did not plan for the > high temperatures > > Normal office fire takes 4 hours before > weakens steel... > > The elevators and utilities and such are > routed through the central core...were > cut when planes hit.... > > steve > > "Hoyt Stearns Jr." wrote: > > > > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > > > No fire suppression system could begin to cope with this eventuality. Even > > > fission reactor containment buildings might fail, according to some experts > > > quoted in The Nation. We would have to make all buildings like Egyptian > > > pyramids to withstand this kind of thing. > > > > > > > How about having tubular structural members (as a > > building in Pittsburg is, > > as I recall) filled with water or a high heat of fusion > > salt. Better still, > > have a large amount of water flowing downward through > > them. Alternatively, > > have them coated with that English hairdresser's super > > plastic goo (similar to > > space shuttle tiles) > > announced a few years ago. > > > > Hoyt Stearns > > Phoenix > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 19:24:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA17895; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:21:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:21:59 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "bruce meland" Subject: Re: Fw: Corporate Media Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:31:40 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: "Remy C." , "Lynn C. Loomis" , References: <00cf01c14053$b772c5a0$68181ad8 oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <00cf01c14053$b772c5a0$68181ad8 oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01091822314000.01209 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA17864 Resent-Message-ID: <"sCR44.0.WN4.750gx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tuesday 18 September 2001 08:08, bruce meland wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Bryan > To: bruce meland > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:00 AM > Subject: Corporate Media > > > > > > > > >>Forward this on! Corporate media is SO manipulative- and the sad > > >>thing is, it works!. . . please spread the word. . . > > >> > > >> > > > >> > This was written by a student in Brazil, and sent to > Indymedia. > > >> > > > >> > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >> CNN USING 1991 FOOTAGE of celebrating > > >> >> Palistinians to manipulate you (english) > > >> >> by Marcio 10:32pm Wed Sep 12 '01 (Modified on > > >> >> 2:17am Thu Sep 13 '01) - Indymedia.org Newswire > > >> >> http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=63288 > > >> >> > > >> >>> I'd like to add some ideas from here, down south. There's an > > >>important > > >> >>>point in the power of press, specifically the power of CNN. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> All around the world we are subjected to 3 or 4 huge news > > >>distributors, > > >> >>>and one of them - as you well know - is CNN. Very > > >> >>> well, I guess all of you have been seeing (just as I've > been) > > >>images from > > >> >>>this company. In particular, one set of images called my > > >>attencion: the > > >> >>>Palestinians celebrating the bombing, out on the streets, > > >>eating some cake > > >> >>>and making funny faces for the camera. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Well, THOSE IMAGES WERE SHOT BACK IN 1991!!! Those are > > >>images of > > >> >>>Palestinians celebrating the invasion of Kuwait! It's simply > > >>unacceptable > > >> >>>that a super-power of cumminications as CNN uses images which > > >>do not > > >> >>>correspond to the reality in talking about so serious an > issue. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> A teacher of mine, here in Brazil, has videotapes recorded > in > > >>1991, with > > >> >>>the very same images; he's been sending emails > > >> >>> to CNN, Globo (the major TV network in Brazil) and > > >>newspapers, denouncing > > >> >>>what I myself classify as a crime against the public opinion. > > >>If anyone of > > >> >>>you has access to this kind of files, serch for it. In the > > >>meanwhile, I'll > > >> >>>try to 'put my hands' on a copy of this tape. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> But now, think for a moment about the impact of such images. > > >>Your people > > >> >>>is hurt, emotionally fragile, and this kind > > >> >>> broadcast have very high possibility of causing waves of > > >>anger and rage > > >> >>>against Palestinians. It's simply irresponsible to show > images > > >>such as > > >> >>>those. > > >> >>> > > Bruce, I have not taken the time to check your pictures out, so cannot comment on them; but, however, your premise has happened before. Quite a while ago and far, far away, the Hollywood 'stars' interfered in a war.......in what was then called Southern Rhodesia. At that time it was one of the most prosperous places in Africa. There was no problem from the Tsetse fly, malaria was on the run, and mineral and agricultural products were a net export in an efficiently run economy with a well fed population that was healthier than any other in Africa save the Union of South Africa, Morrocco, and Tunisia. It was run by a small ethnic minority that controlled just about all aspects of life, and was rather a police state. Just like Rwanda and Burundi today, only these latter two are just the diametrical opposite in every aspect but two---ethnic minority control and excessive cruelty used as a routine management tool. Let no one dare call it a double standard. Certain interests in the United States and Britain wanted Ian Smith out and a more pliable one put in. They backed Robert Mugabe, then a supposed socialist organizer, and were successful after a well orchestrated campaign of propaganda and threats and unkept promises. The lies told were big ones reminiscent of the Hitler/Goebbels 'debates' of the 1920's and 1930;s in Germany, and repeated over and over in the controlled press of both Britain and the United States. One picture that was particularly effective purported to show Rhodesian Security Forces torturing poor farmers. To the casual observer that is just how it looked along with the caption on the bottom supporting the lie. In actuality the picture was of Cuban Army soldiers torturing UNITA captives in Angola. The success of the lie depended on the public not knowing what a Cuban or Soviet Bloc uniform and helmet looked like. Generally the Rhodesian Security Forces did not wear helmets, not to mention Russian or East German 'VOPO' styles, and did not carry Kalashnikov rifles. Nor did they wear suspender harness ammo carriers, to name a few obvious differences. Some of the public ubdoubtedly knew the difference but either did not care or had impotent voices in the face of the huge media campaign going on at the time. Standing Bear after comment: Mugabe was not really a socialist, just a good confidence man. Once in, he double crossed everybody. Now the poor Zimbabwean people are still stuck with him 20 years later. His country is a basket case just like the Congo/Zaire after Joseph Mobutu got through with it. Mobutu was another big business darling too. When will Africans get wise to these con artists?. Another question would be just where and how did the Brit and American media interests get that picture? Inquiring minds would like to know!............and was Di REALLY pregnant with a little Fayed when she was (shhhh don't say assassinated by MI6)....aw heck the tabloids already said that! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 20:53:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA19084; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:52:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:52:06 -0700 From: ConexTom aol.com Message-ID: <13e.1a7eead.28d9706c aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:52:12 EDT Subject: Who Will Dare Resist the Mathematical Secret Codes of the Virtual Universe? To: prj mail.msen.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: ConexTom aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_13e.1a7eead.28d9706c_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 Resent-Message-ID: <"S_c1n3.0.5g4.cP1gx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_13e.1a7eead.28d9706c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Who Will Dare Resist the Mathematical Secret Codes of the Virtual Universe? Throughout my life, I believed in heroic citizens, and the heroic images of legends of Old. In our modern day, how many hero's are there who will fight against the common crowd of cowards and mediocrity, to do something whether it be good or bad, but something, to stand out against the mathematical secrets codes of cowardly secret organizations that run our world and perhaps our universe. None will dare to be good and none will dare to be bad, they let the secret codes from computer programs tell them what to do, whether to be good or bad, and when to be good and bad. Soldiers who claim to be tough and mean and gutsy, who would rather pillage and rape the land, party and drink while the World follows a secret code of a mathematical path to destruction. Not a as single Napoleon to lead us, not a single hero from the legends of old, who will stand up against the masses, the crowds, and the mathematical secret codes of cowardly secret organizations. Not a single Nazi' from underground secret societies, supposedly the meanest of the lot, will dare fight against the masses, and the secret mathematical codes leading to us to our doom. Not single E.T., the mean and gutsy vampires of old , the holy angels, and dragons who love a good fight, for none will dare stand up against the crowd, and come down to Earth, to fight for their kind or cause, rather they just watch while mathematical codes and programs run our universe. What about the higher dimensional beings, the Pleadian's, who advocate, high ethics, how many Pleadian's will dare go against the crowd, to fight for their own kind, in this world or in others? What has happened to our universe. A universe full of cowards and mathematical programs that run peoples lives, for non will dare stand up against the crowd, but hope that the secret society and their computer programs will save us all, and gives us all virtual desires, for none are willing to live for real desires? There must be countless young spirits, in this universe, who would dare take up the honor, to become a legend, a hero, whether it be for the good, or the bad, for this cause, or that cause, for this group, or that group, and take on the stale computer programs and secret society sacred numerical codes, which have created a very mundane, and boring universe to live in, empty of spirit and life. Neither Devil's nor Angles will dare to live, whether it be for the good or the bad, there is only the security of a computer program that tells everyone what to do. Respectfully, Thomas Clark www.rhfweb.com\personal tom rhfweb.com --part1_13e.1a7eead.28d9706c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Who Will Dare Resist the Mathematical Secret Codes of the
Virtual Universe?

Throughout my life, I believed in heroic citizens, and the heroic
images of legends of Old. In our modern day, how many hero's
are there who will fight against the common crowd of cowards
and mediocrity, to do something whether it be good or bad, but
something, to stand out against the mathematical secrets codes
of cowardly secret organizations that run our world and perhaps
our universe. None will dare to be good and none will dare to
be bad, they let the secret codes from computer programs tell
them what to do, whether to be good or bad, and when to be
good and bad.  Soldiers who claim to be tough and mean and
gutsy, who would rather pillage and rape the land, party and
drink while the World follows a secret code of a mathematical
path to destruction. Not a as single Napoleon to lead us, not a
single hero from the legends of old, who will stand up against
the masses, the crowds, and the mathematical secret codes of
cowardly secret organizations. Not a single Nazi' from
underground secret societies, supposedly the meanest of the lot,
will dare fight against the masses, and the secret mathematical
codes leading to us to our doom. Not single E.T., the mean and
gutsy vampires of old , the holy angels, and dragons who love a
good fight, for none will dare stand up against the crowd, and
come down to Earth, to fight for their kind or cause, rather they
just watch while mathematical codes and programs run our
universe. What about the higher dimensional beings, the
Pleadian's, who advocate, high ethics, how many Pleadian's will
dare go against the crowd, to fight for their own kind, in this
world or in others? What has happened to our universe. A
universe full of cowards and mathematical programs that run
peoples lives, for non will dare stand up against the crowd, but
hope that the secret society and their computer programs will
save us all, and gives us all virtual desires, for none are willing
to live for real desires? There must be countless young spirits, in
this universe, who would dare take up the honor, to become a
legend, a hero, whether it be for the good, or the bad, for this
cause, or that cause, for this group, or that group, and take on
the stale computer programs and secret society sacred
numerical codes, which have created a very mundane, and
boring universe to live in, empty of spirit  and life. Neither
Devil's nor Angles will dare to live, whether it be for the good
or the bad, there is only the security of a computer program that
tells everyone what to do.


Respectfully,

Thomas Clark
www.rhfweb.com\personal
tom rhfweb.com
--part1_13e.1a7eead.28d9706c_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 21:24:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA31765; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:23:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:23:33 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Who Will Dare Resist the Mathematical Secret Codes of the Virtual Universe? Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:31:33 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C140A2.6ECC58D0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <13e.1a7eead.28d9706c aol.com> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"El8UG1.0.Am7.5t1gx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C140A2.6ECC58D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow. I'm suitably impressed. That rant achieved orbit, I think. Please tell me you're not just copping licks from Francis E. Dec, Esquire. You old "Worldwide Computer God Frankenstein Controls" ya! K. -----Original Message----- From: ConexTom aol.com [mailto:ConexTom@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:52 PM To: prj mail.msen.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: ConexTom aol.com Subject: Who Will Dare Resist the Mathematical Secret Codes of the Virtual Universe? Who Will Dare Resist the Mathematical Secret Codes of the Virtual Universe? Throughout my life, I believed in heroic citizens, and the heroic images of legends of Old. In our modern day, how many hero's are there who will fight against the common crowd of cowards and mediocrity, to do something whether it be good or bad, but something, to stand out against the mathematical secrets codes of cowardly secret organizations that run our world and perhaps our universe. None will dare to be good and none will dare to be bad, they let the secret codes from computer programs tell them what to do, whether to be good or bad, and when to be good and bad. Soldiers who claim to be tough and mean and gutsy, who would rather pillage and rape the land, party and drink while the World follows a secret code of a mathematical path to destruction. Not a as single Napoleon to lead us, not a single hero from the legends of old, who will stand up against the masses, the crowds, and the mathematical secret codes of cowardly secret organizations. Not a single Nazi' from underground secret societies, supposedly the meanest of the lot, will dare fight against the masses, and the secret mathematical codes leading to us to our doom. Not single E.T., the mean and gutsy vampires of old , the holy angels, and dragons who love a good fight, for none will dare stand up against the crowd, and come down to Earth, to fight for their kind or cause, rather they just watch while mathematical codes and programs run our universe. What about the higher dimensional beings, the Pleadian's, who advocate, high ethics, how many Pleadian's will dare go against the crowd, to fight for their own kind, in this world or in others? What has happened to our universe. A universe full of cowards and mathematical programs that run peoples lives, for non will dare stand up against the crowd, but hope that the secret society and their computer programs will save us all, and gives us all virtual desires, for none are willing to live for real desires? There must be countless young spirits, in this universe, who would dare take up the honor, to become a legend, a hero, whether it be for the good, or the bad, for this cause, or that cause, for this group, or that group, and take on the stale computer programs and secret society sacred numerical codes, which have created a very mundane, and boring universe to live in, empty of spirit and life. Neither Devil's nor Angles will dare to live, whether it be for the good or the bad, there is only the security of a computer program that tells everyone what to do. Respectfully, Thomas Clark www.rhfweb.com\personal tom rhfweb.com ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C140A2.6ECC58D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wow.=20 I'm suitably impressed.
 
That=20 rant achieved orbit, I think.
 
Please=20 tell me you're not just copping licks from
Francis E. Dec, Esquire. You old=20 "Worldwide
Computer God Frankenstein Controls"=20 ya!
 
K.
-----Original Message-----
From: ConexTom aol.com=20 [mailto:ConexTom aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 = 11:52=20 PM
To: prj mail.msen.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc:=20 ConexTom aol.com
Subject: Who Will Dare Resist the = Mathematical=20 Secret Codes of the Virtual Universe?

Who Will Dare Resist the = Mathematical Secret=20 Codes of the
Virtual Universe?

Throughout my life, I = believed in=20 heroic citizens, and the heroic
images of legends of Old. In our = modern=20 day, how many hero's
are there who will fight against the common = crowd of=20 cowards
and mediocrity, to do something whether it be good or bad, = but=20
something, to stand out against the mathematical secrets codes =
of=20 cowardly secret organizations that run our world and perhaps
our = universe.=20 None will dare to be good and none will dare to
be bad, they let = the=20 secret codes from computer programs tell
them what to do, whether = to be=20 good or bad, and when to be
good and bad.  Soldiers who claim = to be=20 tough and mean and
gutsy, who would rather pillage and rape the = land,=20 party and
drink while the World follows a secret code of a = mathematical=20
path to destruction. Not a as single Napoleon to lead us, not a =
single=20 hero from the legends of old, who will stand up against
the = masses, the=20 crowds, and the mathematical secret codes of
cowardly secret=20 organizations. Not a single Nazi' from
underground secret = societies,=20 supposedly the meanest of the lot,
will dare fight against the = masses, and=20 the secret mathematical
codes leading to us to our doom. Not = single E.T.,=20 the mean and
gutsy vampires of old , the holy angels, and dragons = who love=20 a
good fight, for none will dare stand up against the crowd, and =
come=20 down to Earth, to fight for their kind or cause, rather they
just = watch=20 while mathematical codes and programs run our
universe. What about = the=20 higher dimensional beings, the
Pleadian's, who advocate, high = ethics, how=20 many Pleadian's will
dare go against the crowd, to fight for their = own=20 kind, in this
world or in others? What has happened to our = universe. A=20
universe full of cowards and mathematical programs that run =
peoples=20 lives, for non will dare stand up against the crowd, but
hope that = the=20 secret society and their computer programs will
save us all, and = gives us=20 all virtual desires, for none are willing
to live for real = desires? There=20 must be countless young spirits, in
this universe, who would dare = take up=20 the honor, to become a
legend, a hero, whether it be for the good, = or the=20 bad, for this
cause, or that cause, for this group, or that group, = and=20 take on
the stale computer programs and secret society sacred=20
numerical codes, which have created a very mundane, and
boring = universe to live in, empty of spirit  and life. Neither =
Devil's nor=20 Angles will dare to live, whether it be for the good
or the bad, = there is=20 only the security of a computer program that
tells everyone what = to do.=20


Respectfully,

Thomas Clark =
www.rhfweb.com\personal=20
tom rhfweb.com
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C140A2.6ECC58D0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 22:59:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA30766; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:58:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:58:20 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA8341A.309AECB5 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:58:50 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Corporate Media References: <00cf01c14053$b772c5a0$68181ad8 oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VlLow2.0.dW7.xF3gx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: (repost) I did a search on this issue two days ago, and found this claim is unsupported. http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/cnn.htm http://israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0087.htm hamdi ucar bruce meland wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Bryan > To: bruce meland > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:00 AM > Subject: Corporate Media > > > > > > > >>Forward this on! Corporate media is SO manipulative- and the sad > > >>thing is, it works!. . . please spread the word. . . > > >> > > >> > > > >> > This was written by a student in Brazil, and sent to > Indymedia. > > >> > > > >> > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >> CNN USING 1991 FOOTAGE of celebrating > > >> >> Palistinians to manipulate you (english) > > >> >> by Marcio 10:32pm Wed Sep 12 '01 (Modified on > > >> >> 2:17am Thu Sep 13 '01) - Indymedia.org Newswire > > >> >> http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=63288 > > >> >> > > >> >>> I'd like to add some ideas from here, down south. There's an From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 18 23:02:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA31007; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:59:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:59:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:58:52 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: "Remy C." , "Lynn C. Loomis" , cochran vancouver.wsu.edu Subject: footage of "celebrating Palestinians" real after all In-Reply-To: <00cf01c14053$b772c5a0$68181ad8 oemcomputer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2mEFm2.0.Ma7.jG3gx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just on memepool.com... On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, bruce meland wrote: >>Forward this on! Corporate media is SO manipulative- and the sad >>thing is, it works!. . . please spread the word. . . >> > This was written by a student in Brazil, and sent to Indymedia. This turns out to be an untrue rumor. The original author explains: http://uk.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=11546 And also it's discussed on snopes "urban legends", where it is pointed out that the audio track on that footage mentions praise for Bin Laden. As usual, when an email message says "be an important person, forward this message to all your friends," it turns out to be a mind-virus. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 04:25:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA18946; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:24:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 04:24:29 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:24:43 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Afghanistan Message-ID: <20010919122443.K721 tao.org.uk> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917104327.03844470 pop.mindspring.com> <01091713472400.01370@tyrannosaur> <021d01c13fcd$87fa06c0$6401a8c0@cs910664a> <01091722443300.01249@tyrannosaur> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NT59pYSnj1ZLVgEN" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01091722443300.01249 tyrannosaur>; from rockcast@net-link.net on Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:44:33PM -0700 Resent-Message-ID: <"MoUhI2.0.yd4.j18gx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --NT59pYSnj1ZLVgEN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:44:33PM -0700, Standing Bear wrote: > Real education is often just as prone to failure, and a prime > case if Iraq. Read the history of the British administration > from the 1920's to 1946 when it became independant (may be > off a year or two). It took three elections to elect a Mohammed > Mossadegh that took it all apart--6 years! The British DID > try to train a responsible government; the people preferred > demagogues and voted accordingly. No democracy is safe > if not in the soul of the people. =20 What's this story? I'm too young, and under-educated. Are you saying that the British had administration of Iraq? Joe --NT59pYSnj1ZLVgEN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjuogHsACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZLoACfaUzHkn9ufMBc23K0/3FSO+SK 5DQAnjuQg31cEHfkcJWCsqHk+iAXEySw =DHU0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NT59pYSnj1ZLVgEN-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 08:18:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA22619; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:17:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:17:21 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:25:05 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: size of photon Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"eccTo1.0.EX5.0SBgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., How does the size of a photon of visible light compare with its wavelength? I have recently read a post reading 'vivible light photons have been measured as being miles in length' ..sounds odd. A light wave of 500 nm ...is the photon 500 nm? J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 08:18:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA22736; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:17:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:17:36 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:17:59 -0800 Message-Id: <1000912679.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: I suppose I should be thankful... Resent-Message-ID: <"t9V342.0.8Z5.FSBgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: and in a way, I am. Because of the terrorist acts last weeks, the airlines hit the financial skids. Because the airlines hit the financial skids, my employer hit the financial skids. So I'm going to be one of the tens of thousands of people laid off over this incident, probably. That's bad enough, but I felt secure enough in my job to start work on my Master's degree in physics. Physics is not a major that has a lot of employment opportunities. I'm probably going to have to focus on re-training for my next job rather than doing something that I enjoy. I certainly will not have the time to retrain, study for my masters, and look for another job. And my experimental plans are off, too. Deuterium is getting too difficult to buy, anyway. At least, I'm alive. Thing could be worse. And I'll probably try and use the re-training period they're offering to finish the masters in my other major, electrical engineering. That won't be so bad. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 08:46:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06684; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:45:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:45:52 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:41:03 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: size of photon To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <002801c14121$7da55d00$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: Resent-Message-ID: <"QzwJk.0.He1.msBgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: "John Schnurer" > A light wave of 500 nm ...is the photon 500 nm? A photon of 500 nm appears as green to blue-green to humans. At 650 nm it is red. At 450 it turns more bluish. When you throw the spectrum from about 350 to 700 together, you have "light," or apparent whiteness. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 10:56:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA05127; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:56:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:56:01 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010919134015.03441e58 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:44:46 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Overall cost of CF powered machines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Eedbe3.0.hF1.jmDgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is something I wrote in another forum, in response to the question: How much cheaper might cold fusion powered machines be? Most of this applies to super chemical or magic electric motors too. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - A great deal depends on two questions that cannot be answered yet: 1. Does CF require rare, expensive metals such as Pd and Au, or can it be done with abundant Ni or Ti? 2. How much of the metal is transmuted over the life of the cell? With some cells it seems only a tiny fraction is transmuted, so perhaps the amount varies and performance can be optimized to prevent transmutation. Microscopic areas in cathodes are vaporized by the intense heat of cold fusion, and this eventually disrupts the reaction, but the metal will be inside a sealed cell where it can be recovered and remanufactured. The cell will wear out from contamination and various other causes anyway, so I do not think thermal damage to the cathode will have an impact on the lifetime cost. Assuming cheap metals can be used, my guess is that initially, perhaps a decade after the technology is introduced, it may cut the cost of high energy machines like automobiles by about half. I think the average car costs about $18,000 and burns about $18,000 in fuel over the life of the vehicle. With CF the fuel cost over the life of the vehicle will be a few dollars, and the equipment will be about the same price as it is today, because the materials, manufacturing tolerance and other parameters are roughly the same as with an ICE. So the owner's direct costs will fall by half. This does not take into account money saved by eliminating pollution, which is difficult to quantify. A CF powered automobile can be made heavier and more resistant to damage from accidents, without adding to cost of fuel. This will save money in insurance, hospital care, and repairs, but I do not know enough about automobiles to guess the dollar amounts. In some specialized applications, such as mountaintop weather stations, cold fusion will initially lower the power supply cost by 1 or 2 orders of magnitude. CF may also give birth to many new applications, such as cost-effective interplanetary transportation, which are not possible with fossil fuel or fission. A century after introduction, when the technology matures, I expect CF will reduce overall costs of some energy intense machines 3 to 4 orders of magnitude. Zero cost fuel, by itself, does not guarantee cheap energy. The 'fuel' for wind turbines and hydroelectricity is free, but the electricity still costs more than coal or fission. Solar PV electricity is far more expensive than any conventional or alternative source, mainly because sunlight has low power density, and it is only present in daytime. CF has very high power density and it is available all the time. It does not depend upon wind or rainfall, and it is not tied to a geographic location the way wind and hydroelectricity are. It can be made on a small or large scale as needed, with relatively simple devices. It does not require a power distribution network, like coal and fission do, or a fuel storage and distribution network like gasoline or natural gas. It does not cause pollution, which requires abatement cost and causes secondary expenses for illness, property damage and so on. The heat will be virtually zero cost. In other words, the cost of running the machine will be the same whether it outputs 4 kW or 8 kW. Carnot efficiency will not matter, so the machine design will be optimized for low manufacturing costs and longevity. Conventional fossil fuel, fission reactors and wind turbines are optimized to extract the maximum amount of useful energy from the primary source, which means the equipment itself is expensive and it requires expert attention and maintenance. CF equipment will eventually run without moving parts, with minimum maintenance, even though this may waste a great deal of heat. For these and other reasons I think CF lends itself to low cost operation over the lifetime of the machine. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 11:03:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08440; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:02:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:02:12 -0700 Message-ID: <002001c14135$95fc5a20$51181ad8 oemcomputer> From: "bruce meland" To: , "Tami Jackson" , "Jack Meland" , "John Bryan" , "Lynn C. Loomis" Cc: , , Subject: Fw: Turn on 60 Minutes.... Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:04:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"Tib801.0.h32.YsDgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Remy C. To: Bruce Meland ; Gary Vesperman Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 7:09 PM Subject: Turn on 60 Minutes.... > People keep assuming I live in NY. > I don't. I live in CT. > I posted this story on the 14th. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/endsecrecy/message/1830 > All this will come out in the wash... > > New York cops busted an entire building full of Bin Laden supporters who had > been partying on a roof top with binoculars. When they got there they > realized it was the same building they had investigated the last time they > tried to pancake the WTC. > > Look, they don't need encryption code!!! Nobody at the CIA, NSA or whatever > alphabet soup, doesn't speak a word of Arabic, let alone the dialects!!! > > We're in deep shit because everybody had their head in the sand all the way > up their ass! Nobody in this country gave a shit about their government > anymore. Nobody heeded the Hides of March! > > You know what they say about democracy. Don't use it, lose it! > > I hate to see everything go back to business as usual with commercials on > TV. We should be saving the planet! This was the Day The Earth Stood Still > for a split second. Did enough people get it long enough to dust themselves > off and change the direction they were going in? Not as long as guys like > Gingrich are running the rethoric and Bush bellicoses. > > We could have had a National Service Corps, retroffited America with solar > panels, built an EV transportation infrastructure. Instead we built larger > and larger SUVs, sent troops to protect the oil, troops to kill drug dealers > (i.e. poor farmers) and here we are. Set up 10 cents an hour wage slave > sweatshops all over... Can't say we didn't try our best to warn people!!! > > Will Americans listen to the likes of us now? Will the people give pundits > like us the resources to make our case known? Will we be lumped in with the > "terrorist" profile and have our information karted away? > > There's been dozens of instances of violence against Arab-Americans already, > a few deaths. Just keep chugging Budweiser!!! Folks here can be no better. > Look at the OK Bombing. > > I'm fed up. I came to this country 30 years ago with a dream to save the > planet. 30 years later I'm no better off today than I was in 1974. There's > no place to go except trying to stay alive and getting old. > > Americans need to look at their country and the way they interact with the > rest of the world. They can't keep sending Palm Beach thugs in Gucci shoes > as ambassadors to the third world, or we are going to get our asses > micro-nuked eventually. We need to equalize the balance of power, and > quickly. Not with pay-offs to tyrants designed as charity. But by teaching > them how to fish! > > This may be, in the long run, after all the tears have dried and the anger > starts boiling up to the surface, the best thing that could have happened to > the planet, and maybe even New York City. > > New Yorkers are for the most part a real strange bunch, with a lot of > insight and capable of deep self-reflection. Their great city had been taken > over by the money changers who destroyed their harbor, closed down their > clubs, even passed a law making it illegal to dance in restaurants without a > very costly, impossible to get cabaret licence. There are not little things. > These are things that rip at the heart of a City. Why do you think everyone > went down to party in Miami Beach. New York has become impossible, just a > heaven for the super-wealthy. > > Even Donald Trump knows it. He's a born New Yorker. You should have heard > him rant on TV. > > New Yorkers don't want war. New Yorkers want the bastards who did this > brought to justice, both in the Middle East AND in THIS country. > > Can we do this? Can we stand the fact as a nation that these assholes got so > fat on the hog and so complacent that they let a train roll through the > station? > > Let's forget the silly details of conspiracy. It's way past that! Now we > hold town meetings and we bring our evidence to our friends and neighbors. > We save this country before WE get poisoned gased into the stone age by > desperate fanatics who have lost everything under our bombs. > > Don't get me wrong. Get the bastards. Jack Boot Stormtroop through Kabul. > Lynch the fucker! But if we don't also change this country from the inside > out, throw out the money changers, we will all live to regret it. Don't take > NO for an answer anymore. Yell and scream and kick ass until your > representatives finally hear us out!!! > > Turn on 60 Minutes.... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Vesperman" > To: "Remy Chevalier" > Cc: "Bruce Meland" > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:27 PM > Subject: NY cab drivers knew of attacks one hour before? > > > Remy, > > I have received two reports, copied below, of cab drivers leaving lower > Manhattan an hour before the planes started hitting the WTC towers. > > I would like you to show this printout to some NY cab drivers and ask them > if they had been warned about planned attacks. If they had indeed received > prior warning, then WHO TOLD THEM and WHEN? > > If asking them would be inconvenient, then call the cab companies. > > My WTC attack file is now up to 65 pages. I have gotten some strange > reports. > > Gary > > > Date : > Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:52:24 -0700 > > From an email of a couple that were there, in a cab: > > FWD: > > Our driver had kept up with the news on the car radio as he waited > (we hired a driver for the day. If we hadn't, we would not have > gotten anywhere.) He also kept stopping and talking to the very few > cab drivers he could flag down. He told us that, about an hour > before the incident, taxi cabs began leaving Manhattan, and many cab > drivers did not show up for work. He told us that there are around > 10,000 cabs in all of NY city, and that over 7,000 of them are > Muslim. As soon as it became clear that the incident was terrorist- > caused, the muslim cab drivers went home. So, by about 9AM, there > was hardly a cab to be found. If you can picture downtown Manhattan > with maybe 3 cars on the street as far as you can see, and none of > them cabs, you can understand that it was a totally surreal scene. > > (End) > > From : > Patrick Bailey > > To : > pgb padrak.com (BCC: FOL & FOL2 Send Lists) > > Subject : > FWD: Full Story on what was hit at the Pentagon, and the NYC cabs > > Date : > Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:07:41 -0700 > FWD: Full Story on what was hit at the Pentagon, and the NYC cabs > Thanks Don! > On Tuesday, Controlled Remote Viewing expert Lyn Buchanan was in NYC on > business. Amazingly, people did carry on with business in Manhattan that > day, > if they could! Here is his account of the WTC attack and aftermath; > interesting about the cabs! > Don > -------- > Subject: From Lower Manhattan > Received: 9/12/01 8:26 PM > From: Lyn Buchanan > > The wind has changed to where it is blowing toward the north, > directly at us from the World Trade Center, so the whole place has > taken on a very sickly amber light and smells like chalky dust, > burning plastic and rubber, and with a strong tinge of burnt flesh. > For those who have been concerned about our welfare, I want to thank > you. Let me just catch you up to date: > Saturday evening, Linda and I were out on the patio discussing the > strong feeling we both had that I should not take the trip to NYC. > We couldn't think of anything that would go wrong, and I didn't feel > like doing a session, so.....well, you know... who's going to trust > your local psychic, anyway? > I left the house Monday morning at 6AM. The American Airlines plane > in El Paso was supposed to leave at 9AM, but broke down on the > runway. I finally got out of El Paso around 11AM on Delta, headed to > Atlanta. The plane from Atlanta to NYC broke down, and we got out of > there over 2 hours late. Wound up circling over NYC for over an hour > and a half before landing. I was originally supposed to get into NYC > at 5PM - wound up getting in at 11:30PM. > We had planned to have dinner with Marina and Phillippe Buka. Needless > to say, we didn't have supper with them that night. > The next morning, George Thorndyke and I were getting ready for a > meeting about 4 blocks from the World Trade Center. The TV was on > and the coverage of the first plane hitting the WTC began and > continued. I thought that thees. Then, when the information came on over > the TV about the > plane hitting the Pentagon, we realized that this was, in fact, one > of our worst fears - a terrorist attack. > I wondered why the plane hit the Pentagon where it did, and not at > the Ground Zero Kiosk, in the middle courtyard, where it could do the > most damage to the greatest number of people. But when they finally > said that it had hit opposite the Command section, it seemed > clearer. If I remember rightly, the part of the building where it > hit was the location of the Near East Desk. Not sure about that. > All we have is TV pictures of a big hole in one side of the building. > About an hour later, we were approaching the World Trade Center when > the towers started falling. The second tower of the building > collapsed as we drove toward it. The streets were already filled > with people walking northward. They were amazingly quiet, except for > some who were crying uncontrollably, and some who were shaking with > fear. Some had grey dust covering their clothes and hair. The > police were in the process of making everyone south of 14th street > leave and go northward. Even people who had cars were not allowed to > take them, I guess for fear that some might be full of explosives or > something. Anyway, hundreds and hundreds of people were walking > north, some carrying office stuff and briefcases, and some just > walking. Some of these people had a 20-30 mile walk ahead of them. > The meeting went on in spite of it all. One of the main meeting > people did not make it to the meeting because the bridges, streets > and tunnels leading into and out of Manhattan had already been > closed. > Later, George and I went to meet Sandra Martin, and deliver the > (hopefully) final draft of "The Seventh Sense" (my book). The three > of us had a lunch at a restaurant, where we could talk, but no one > talked. The TVs in the restaurant had everyone's full attention. > Outside, hundreds of people streamed northward. All day, a steady > stream of people were walking North up every N-S street, as the > police and guardsmen made everyone leave. Everywhere we drove, > people were doing anything they could to flag our car down and get a > ride, but our car was already full. > Our driver had kept up with the news on the car radio as he waited > (we hired a driver for the day. If we hadn't, we would not have > gotten anywhere.) He also kept stopping and talking to the very few > cab drivers he could flag down. He told us that, about an hour > before the incident, taxi cabs began leaving Manhattan, and many cab > drivers did not show up for work. He told us that there are around > 10,000 cabs in all of NY city, and that over 7,000 of them are > Muslim. As soon as it became clear that the incident was terrorist- > caused, the muslim cab drivers went home. So, by about 9AM, there > was hardly a cab to be found. If you can picture downtown Manhattan > with maybe 3 cars on the street as far as you can see, and none of > them cabs, you can understand that it was a totally surreal scene. > We had fairly free range of travel, except within a couple of blocks > of the WTC. Police and guardsmen had cordoned off many of the E-W > streets, but only certain ones, so any time we could not get through > on one street, we could just go down a block or so and get through on > another. As long as we stayed out of the way of emergency vehicles, > we were OK and could go just about anywhere we wanted. > After lunch, George, Sandra Martin and I went over to visit Ingo (Swan), who > had spent most of the morning on his roof, watching the whole mess > (he lives about 6-8 blocks or so from the Center. He was in a total > state of disbelief, and very shaken. We spent the afernoon with him > and then took him to dinner later that evening, where Marina and > Phillippe Buka and a friend of theirs joined us. There was only one > person in the kitchen, so getting served took almost 2 hours. We > then sat there for another 4 hours or so, in an almost completely > empty restaurant, talking. > The restaurant is on a southbound one-way street. During the entire > time, hundreds of busses, paddy wagons, school busses, cabs and > emptied utility trucks proceeded in an almost unbroken convoy to the > WTC to pick up bodies. One street down, we could see them coming > back from the WTC and heading for the port. There were also a lot of > front-end loaders and heavy equipment in the convoys headed toward > the WTC. > There was no other traffic than those convoys. The streets were, by > then, almost completely deserted. Ingo was not feeling well, so I > walked him back to his building, while the rest stayed at the > restaurant. It was dark by then. There were a few people standing > around on the streets, but not talking much or doing anything. There > was no traffic on the side streets at all. The eerie silence of the > empty streets spooked Ingo greatly. As I returned to the restaurant, > I worried that he was OK, but Ingo is tough. I will check on him > again as soon as possible, and let you know how he is. When I got > back to the restaurant, we went to Marina & Phillippe's apartment. > As we went in, we saw that the guard was very tired looking. He had > been at the WTC all day, helping out. He said that he was stepping > on debris, a lot of which was rubber tubes and ducts. He looked down > once at the ducts, because they felt funny. He scraped the debris > aside and found that what he was feeling below him was severed body > parts. > This morning, I was supposed to go back to the airport with George, > where he would head for home and I would pick up a rental car and > head for northern Long Island. However, the airport has been closed > all day, now, and there are no rental cars to be had in the entire > state. I had to cancel for Long Island simply because there is no > way to get out of Manhattan. It is now Wednesday evening, and the > streets, bridges, and tunnels are still closed. The TV announced > that the subways and railroads are running, but when we call down to > be certain, the people tell us that they are not. Even if they were, > the station is about an hour and a half walk from here. There are no > cabs. Our car driver was not able to get back onto Manhattan today, > so we are totally dependent on our legs to get anywhere. > Both car and foot traffic have picked up some during the day, so > there must be some way to get in, but as far as we can find, we will > not be able to get off Manhattan until Saturday. We plan to take a > train to Atlanta at that time, and hopefully I can catch a plane home > from there. David Ritchey was kind enough to invite me to his home > for the duration, but, like the old saying says, "You can't get there > from here." > (later) The smoke and smells have died down some, but there is still > an "ambiance" which hangs over everything. George and I went out for > a sandwich and coke, and the whole place is still looking a little > eerie. The traffic is back up some, but still not NYC, by any means. > Here's hoping that this gets through to the internet. Can't be sure > right now, but I thought you might like to know what is going on here. > BTW: Marina wanted me to thank everyone for the prayers and healing > she has received from all of you. She is feeling great and, except > for a slight embarrassment about having no hair, is doing well, and > staying in really high spirits. > Please send this to anyone or any list you think might be > interested. Thanks. > Lyn Buchanan & George Throndyke - in Lower Manhattan. > ------------------------ > (End) > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 11:44:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA31479; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:43:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:43:47 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:52:37 -0700 (PDT) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: candle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"lksvK2.0.fh7.YTEgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It was cloudy, not quite fully dark. Hank On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Eugene F. Mallove's message of Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:06:00 > -0400: > > > > > > > > >Just announced on the radio ... > > > > > >The U.S. has asked that everyone step out on their lawns tonight at > >10:30 > >(10:30 EASTERN TIME.... 9:30 Central, 8:30 Mountain, 7:30 Pacific) > [snip] > Will it be dark at 7:30 Pacific? > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 11:49:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA01623; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:48:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:48:25 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:56:10 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: William Beaty Subject: HOW big is the GREEN photon? Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: <002801c14121$7da55d00$aa69fea9 cpq> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ydnMB3.0.DP.vXEgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear vo and Bill, A green photon how big are the photons...? how do we know this? On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Jones Beene wrote: > From: "John Schnurer" > > A light wave of 500 nm ...is the photon 500 nm? > > > A photon of 500 nm appears as green to blue-green to humans. At 650 nm it is > red. At 450 it turns more bluish. When you throw the spectrum from about 350 > to 700 together, you have "light," or apparent whiteness. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 11:54:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA04640; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:54:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:54:17 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:03:06 -0700 (PDT) From: hank scudder To: Vortex Subject: Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"uqvRz3.0.O81.OdEgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A John The length of a photon is the duration of it Times the speed of light. A good measure of it is the decorrelation length. Generally about 10 nanoseconds duration, so about 10x10-8sec times 3x10+8 m/sec or 30 m long for an ordinary light source such as a mercury arc green line. Lasers can have much more coherence, so they have much longer photons. Hank On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, John Schnurer wrote: > > > Dear Vo., > > > How does the size of a photon of visible light compare with its > wavelength? > > I have recently read a post reading 'vivible light photons have > been measured as being miles in length' ..sounds odd. > > A light wave of 500 nm ...is the photon 500 nm? > > > J > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 12:14:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13241; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:13:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:13:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:21:03 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: hank scudder cc: Vortex Subject: Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"r7yaG.0.iE3.GvEgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Hank. Why would this change? How would you teach this to 5th grade science class? How would you design and experiment to show the changes? Q: If I emit 550 green for one period of the WL... or one complete EM waveform .... would the photon be about 750 nm? Or 550 nm? If I emit 550 nm for an hour is the photon one light hour long??? On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, hank scudder wrote: > John > The length of a photon is the duration of it Times the speed of > light. A good measure of it is the decorrelation length. Generally about > 10 nanoseconds duration, so about 10x10-8sec times 3x10+8 m/sec or 30 m > long for an ordinary light source such as a mercury arc green line. Lasers > can have much more coherence, so they have much longer photons. > > Hank > > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Vo., > > > > > > How does the size of a photon of visible light compare with its > > wavelength? > > > > I have recently read a post reading 'vivible light photons have > > been measured as being miles in length' ..sounds odd. > > > > A light wave of 500 nm ...is the photon 500 nm? > > > > > > J > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 12:14:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13648; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:14:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:14:14 -0700 Message-ID: <014101c1413f$b96f2aa0$51181ad8 oemcomputer> From: "bruce meland" To: Cc: "Remy C." , , "Sheila Shultz" References: <200109171246.IAA02250 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Bin Laden Said To Have Nukes Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:17:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"VXn5R1.0.9L3.5wEgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would be more concerned about chemical and biological weapons mainly from Iraq as biological canisters have been intercepted from time to time th elast 7 years around the US, There has been a run for gas masks all over the world recently. Each Israeli has a gas mask and used them frequently during the Gulf War. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: Eugene F. Mallove To: Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 4:36 AM Subject: Fwd: Bin Laden Said To Have Nukes > Dear Friends, > > Even though the facts in this report may not be confirmed -- and it is > even possible that the report is fabricated -- it is a good working > hypothesis, sad to say. > > Gene Mallove > ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- > Date: 9/17/01 2:14 AM > Received: 9/17/01 7:15 AM > From: Remy C., remyc prodigy.net > To: End Secrecy List, endsecrecy yahoogroups.com > > From: > http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22611 > > Bin Laden said to have nukes > Report: Extent of fugitive leader's arsenal 'no longer a doubt' > By Jon Dougherty > © 2001 WorldNetDaily.com > > Fugitive Saudi terrorist-sponsor Osama bin Laden is now known to have > nuclear weapons, putting to rest previous speculation that left the > possibility open, according to a weekly intelligence newsletter. > > A report published in this week's Geostrategy-Direct.com newsletter, > edited > in part by Washington Times staffers Bill Gertz and Robert Morton, > indicated > that bin Laden's possession of nuclear devices "is no longer a doubt." > > "Saudi billionaire fugitive Osama bin Laden has nuclear weapons. The > question is how many," the report said. > > Gertz told WND he didn't write the assessment, but that the newsletter's > primary editor, Morton, had a stringer in the Mideast who verified the > information. Morton was out of his office and could not be reached for > comment. > > "Russian intelligence sources who are fighting bin Laden members in > Chechnya > believe [he] has a handful of tactical nuclear weapons," said the report. > "Arab intelligence sources say the Al Qaida head has as many as 20 > weapons." > > Al Qaida is the name of the terrorist group bin Laden leads. > > The report says "both sides agree" that the Saudi terrorist managed to > acquire his weapons by supporting the Chechen cause with money and > volunteers, in exchange for nuclear materials and technology. > > Bin Laden "received [it] from Chechen insurgents who raided [Russian] > nuclear installations for fuel and components around the former Soviet > Union," the report said. > > "With that came the recruits from among scientists from the former Soviet > Union. The rest was easy," said Geostrategy-Direct.com. > > The report said the actual location of the weapons is unknown, but "the > assessment by both Arab and Russian sources is that bin Laden has managed > to > sneak at least some of the components to his lair in Afghanistan." > > Bin Laden is one of the FBI's Ten Most Wanted Fugitives. He is wanted in > connection with the Aug. 7, 1998, bombings of two U.S. embassies in > Africa -- one in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and the other in Nairobi, Kenya. > Over 200 were killed in the attacks. > > He is believed to have a connection to the Oct. 12 bombing of the > destroyer > USS Cole as it refueled in Yemen, WND reported Oct. 26. > > The State Department had no comment on the report, but other intelligence > officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, told WND that any reports > dealing with bin Laden are taken seriously. > > "Reports regarding bin Laden are always taken seriously and investigated," > the official said. "He clearly poses a threat to U.S. interests around the > world, so you can't dismiss every rumor out of hand. It wouldn't be > prudent > to do that." > > In January, the New York Times -- quoting U.S. officials -- said bin > Laden's > organization was making attempts to manufacture chemical weapons and "buy > enriched uranium," one of the main components of a nuclear device. > > But as far back as August 1999, counter-terrorism experts said bin Laden > may > have acquired "up to 20 nuclear devices." > > "Yosef Bodansky, a researcher of the House Task Force for > Counter-terrorism > and author of a new book on bin Laden, told a news conference on Friday > that > bin Laden has been seeking to follow up on his bombings of two U.S. > embassies in east Africa one year ago. Echoing U.S. officials, Bodansky > said > bin Laden was thwarted in plans to blow up the U.S. embassy and two > consulates in India last December and January," WorldTribune.com reported. > > "It was also reported that bin Laden has biological, chemical and nuclear > weapons and has received technical help from Iraq, Bodansky said. The > nuclear weapons include suitcase bombs acquired through Chechen rebels," > the > paper said. > > "The Russians believe that he has a handful [of nuclear weapons]. The > Saudi > intelligence services are very conservative. ... They are friendly to the > United States [and] believe that he has in the neighborhood of 20," > Bodansky > said, as quoted by the Internet paper. > > Bin Laden reportedly obtained and purchased the suitcase bombs from > multiple > sources, he said. He has a "collection of individuals knowledgeable in > activating the bombs" and "is recruiting former Soviet special forces [to > learn] how to operate the bombs behind enemy lines," Bodansky said. > > He noted that, according to his research, most of the weapons had been > transferred through Pakistan. > > Related stories: > > Bin Laden joins Arafat > Oklahoma City blast linked to bin Laden > Suspect pegged in Cole bombing > Bin Laden calls for war against U.S. > Covert U.S. bin Laden mission underway > Related column: > Is bin Laden a nuclear power? > > Jon E. Dougherty is a staff reporter and columnist for WorldNetDaily, and > author of the special report, "Election 2000: How the Military Vote Was > Suppressed." > > > > > ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 12:40:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24365; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:40:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:40:05 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:48:53 -0700 (PDT) From: hank scudder To: Vortex Subject: Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ZWuQr2.0.Yy5.KIFgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John I used a Michaelson interferometer with a mercury vapor lamp with a green filter that was quite sharp, so only the green line came through. This was in Advanced Physics lab in college. The adjustable mirror was set up so that it was meter steps away from the detector. At some distance the interference fringes disappear, which means that separate photons are hitting the detector-in this case my eye, and they did not overlap the portion of the light travelling the standard path. You could do something similar, or you could use "white light" from a light bulb as a source, and move the adjustable mirror only a little bit to lose the fringes. However it is quite hard to setup as the two path lenghts have to be exactly equal to see the white light fringes in the first place. The green light is much easier to set up. Another experiment you might setup uses two pieces of ground glass almost parallel with each other, but separated with a very thin shim at one end so they make a very slight angle. Light reflecting will show fringes. Probably the simplest thing to show fringes is an oil drop on water spreading out, but I don't know how you could get show coherent light this way easily. For fifth graders, probably the oil drop makes the most sense to show the wave nature of light. Good luck - maybe this will stimulate others with better ideas. Hank On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, John Schnurer wrote: > > > Dear Hank. > > Why would this change? > > How would you teach this to 5th grade science class? > How would you design and experiment to show the changes? > > Q: If I emit 550 green for one period of the WL... or one > complete EM waveform .... would the photon be about 750 nm? Or 550 nm? > > If I emit 550 nm for an hour is the photon one light hour long??? > > > > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, hank scudder wrote: > > > John > > The length of a photon is the duration of it Times the speed of > > light. A good measure of it is the decorrelation length. Generally about > > 10 nanoseconds duration, so about 10x10-8sec times 3x10+8 m/sec or 30 m > > long for an ordinary light source such as a mercury arc green line. Lasers > > can have much more coherence, so they have much longer photons. > > > > Hank > > > > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vo., > > > > > > > > > How does the size of a photon of visible light compare with its > > > wavelength? > > > > > > I have recently read a post reading 'vivible light photons have > > > been measured as being miles in length' ..sounds odd. > > > > > > A light wave of 500 nm ...is the photon 500 nm? > > > > > > > > > J > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 13:00:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA00512; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:00:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:00:03 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010919153119.03445e78 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:00:22 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism In-Reply-To: <3BA7B8D5.1DE26718 home.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917122146.00aa0738 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010918100750.00aa42d8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"tu6-t3.0.d7.2bFgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hoyt Stearns Jr. wrote: > > No fire suppression system could begin to cope with this eventuality. Even > > fission reactor containment buildings might fail, according to some experts > > quoted in The Nation. We would have to make all buildings like Egyptian > > pyramids to withstand this kind of thing. > > > >How about having tubular structural members (as a building in Pittsburg >is, as I recall) filled with water or a high heat of fusion salt. Better >still, >have a large amount of water flowing downward through them. . . . Let me rephrase. No conventional, cost effective fire suppression system could begin to cope with this eventuality. Fire suppression systems used in airplane hangers *can* cope with a burning airplane. I think I read that the WTC fire sprinkler puts thousands of gallons of water per hour in a large room from a reservoir that lasts about an hour. A hanger sprinkler puts out hundreds of thousands of gallons per hour, indefinitely. The WTC equipment was reportedly better than average, and quite capable of handling a fire from the materials you find in most offices. Buildings can be devised that will withstand a direct hit by a 747. Automobiles can be made that will protect the passengers in a 60 mph crash. Food safety inspection could reduce deaths from food poisoning from several thousand per year (roughly the same as the WTC attack) to nearly zero. Just about any single goal that society sets for itself can be met. The problem is that we cannot afford optimum safety in *all* areas. We cannot afford sky-high office building rents, plus automobiles that cost $100,000 each, plus hamburger meat that costs $10 per pound. We have to take risks and accept trade-offs. Either that, or we have to make giant improvements with radical new technology, which dramatically lowers the cost of safety, such as the "English hairdresser's super plastic goo," or airplanes that fly with cold fusion instead of chemical fuel. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 14:49:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14877; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:48:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:48:44 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:48:26 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <884iqtsa6t928t33hov953uprjtjrk11ea 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA14774 Resent-Message-ID: <"S1nKi2.0.6e3.sAHgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to hank scudder's message of Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:48:53 -0700: >John > I used a Michaelson interferometer with a mercury vapor lamp with >a green filter that was quite sharp, so only the green line came >through. This was in Advanced Physics lab in college. The adjustable >mirror was set up so that it was meter steps away from the detector. At >some distance the interference fringes disappear, which means that >separate photons are hitting the detector-in this case my eye, and they >did not overlap the portion of the light travelling the standard path. You >could do something similar, or you could use "white light" from a light >bulb as a source, and move the adjustable mirror only a little bit to lose >the fringes. However it is quite hard to setup as the two path lenghts >have to be exactly equal to see the white light fringes in the first >place. The green light is much easier to set up. I'm far from an expert here, but my gut reaction says that the distance you are talking about here is determined by the sharpness of the filter. I.e. the sharper the filter, the greater the distance. Using a laser would result in much larger distances. IOW it depends on the mix of frequencies present in the light, as much as the actual degree of coherence (phase agreement) of the individual photons. More to the point perhaps, I don't see what coherence has to do with "photon length". Side note, if Mills is correct, then photons are spherical, and I think the wavelength equals the circumference. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 15:07:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA24057; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:06:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:06:32 -0700 Message-ID: <001401c14157$c2782b20$d93dee3f User> From: "Nick Reiter" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Nano-particles? Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:02:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"kP-QL.0.at5.bRHgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Last week, when Bill B posted the letter about the Tesla Coil ball lightning, there was an addition to the discussion thread from Frank Z. about a Scientific American article on the properties of interplanetary dust in the 50nm size range. Can anyone tell me which issue this article was in? Nano particle TiO2 and Al2O3 are easily available. I ordered some TiO2 30 to 50 nm nano-material from Altair technologies in Reno, Nevada. NR From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 15:24:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA29233; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:17:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:17:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:26:37 -0700 (PDT) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: <884iqtsa6t928t33hov953uprjtjrk11ea 4ax.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"NDQFY.0.h87.CcHgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin What you say would be true if the width of the filter was very small, but it wasn't. All it did was separate out the green line from the blue ones, and orange and lower. Hank On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to hank scudder's message of Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:48:53 -0700: > > >John > > I used a Michaelson interferometer with a mercury vapor lamp with > >a green filter that was quite sharp, so only the green line came > >through. This was in Advanced Physics lab in college. The adjustable > >mirror was set up so that it was meter steps away from the detector. At > >some distance the interference fringes disappear, which means that > >separate photons are hitting the detector-in this case my eye, and they > >did not overlap the portion of the light travelling the standard path. You > >could do something similar, or you could use "white light" from a light > >bulb as a source, and move the adjustable mirror only a little bit to lose > >the fringes. However it is quite hard to setup as the two path lenghts > >have to be exactly equal to see the white light fringes in the first > >place. The green light is much easier to set up. > > I'm far from an expert here, but my gut reaction says that the distance > you are talking about here is determined by the sharpness of the filter. > I.e. the sharper the filter, the greater the distance. Using a laser > would result in much larger distances. IOW it depends on the mix of > frequencies present in the light, as much as the actual degree of > coherence (phase agreement) of the individual photons. > > More to the point perhaps, I don't see what coherence has to do with > "photon length". Side note, if Mills is correct, then photons are > spherical, and I think the wavelength equals the circumference. > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 16:21:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA26739; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:20:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:20:11 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:15:12 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Energy conversion and CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <008f01c14160$ef1b63a0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"KSdth3.0.iX6.gWIgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings, In order to utilize the low grade heat of CF in any application other than space heating, if and when CF technology becomes more robust - then we need to look closely at what heat conversion techniques are available. I will use the term CF solely for Cold Fusion of the "wet" (or electrolytic) variety, so nothing here will apply to gas phase CF, at least not for those techniques which can provide working temperatures that are high enough that Carnot (heat) engines become practical, or alternatively that direct electrical conversion, even if it is only of the lower efficiency thermoelectric form, is practical. In general terms, most agree that the capital costs (depreciation) of free energy machines will likely be relatively high, relative to hydrocarbon combustion, but that the cost of fossil fuels can be eliminated. Complicating the issue is the fact that the cost of fossil fuel will rise over time as we deplete these natural resources, but at the same time the cost of electricity may fall, if any other variety of free energy technology (BLP) comes around that does indeed efficiently convert heat directly into electricity- or if the world ever gets its act together on nuclear. We already have a fine infrastructure for delivering electricity which is in place now, and will serve us well for decades at little incremental cost. Therefore, if electrical rates stabilize or even fall, then it becomes far less likely that home owners will lay out large sums for space heating, except perhaps the occasional swimming pool owner in Minnesota. Any relative worth analysis will be extremely pertinent in one overriding application: automobiles. Because of the importance that our society places on personal transportation, and the cost we are willing to pay for that perceived value, then it almost goes without saying that any new alternative energy technology which comes along and is able to penetrate the automotive market first, will be very likely overwhelm all other competitors in the near term. In economic terms, this situation results because the automobile becomes a "sunk cost" wholly attributable to our transportation needs, and anything additional that such a sunk cost can power, so long as fuel and incremental costs are negligible, including homes, offices, and factories, will be icing on the cake for the vehicle owners - even to the extent that no significant capital costs for any other energy consuming application will seem worthwhile, in comparison. Once a free energy powered vehicle has been purchased for transportation, its owner can probably be enticed to "sell" excess power at ridiculously low rates because the capital cost has already been justified for other needs - and/or also store its night-time energy output in batteries. At ten cents per kWh, a 100 kW idle auto could be bringing in 5-10 bucks per hour in savings for its owner - about minimum wage, shall we say. Therefore it seems that the long term viability of CF may resolve itself to one key issue: is it amenable in any way to powering the automobile? It has been stated that "Carnot efficiency will not matter" because the cost of fuel will be essentially zero and furthermore, that the cost of running the machine will not matter whether it produces 5 kW or 20 kWh. For that second claim to be true of course, it must be shown that the capital costs for a very large machine is essentially identical to that for a much smaller machine. But first of all, for wet CF to be even considered in the automotive application, one very important capital consideration may have been totally overlooked by some CF advocates. It is somewhat ironic to think that the limiting expense (of a device in which the fuel costs is essentially zero) is not the capital cost of the heat source itself, but the capital and societal cost of *heat rejection* Fortunately, for the doubters among us, there is a very close parallel in automotive history, the steam engine. In the early history of the automobile, fuel cost was essentially zero, relative to capital costs. It has been suggested by automotive engineers that in both the original steam engine at the turn of the century, and in the revival attempts in the '60, the technology was done in, not by the cost of the engine itself, but by the cost of heat rejection, i.e. cooling down all that steam. At first, this scenario seems far removed from CF since the low grade heat of CF can't even raise steam, but the necessity of heat rejection can be an even worse present day problem - due not only to international environmental concerns and treaties, but also the local effects on asphalt and downtown congestion in the summer, not to mention size constraints on the vehicle itself. A CF powered vehicle would need to reject about ten to twenty times more heat into the environment per horsepower produced than hydrocarbon combustion and, folks, that is an absolute nightmare! When you do the math, and you start thinking about the implications of trying to convert monstrous amounts of low grade heat into torque or horsepower, you are required to think BIG. When the efficiency is 2% (low end of projection), then for each watt produced, 50 must be rejected - at 4% (high end of projection) for each watt produce 25 must be rejected. A car needs about 40 kWh (around 60 horsepower) for even minimum performance. If that thing is going around town throwing off a full megawatt of excess heat each hour into the environment and you multiply that by a few million consumers, you better hope you live way up in the hills because the oceans, son, they will be arisin' ... The distinction between high grade/ low grade heat is generally considered to be 500-700 degrees Celsius, or at the low end of combustion. If one can operate a CF cell with a plasma, then electricity will be available at upwards to 85% efficiency compared with 20-25% for high grade heat and 2-6% for low grade heat. In a wet CF system where boiling must be suppressed, lets say 200 degrees centigrade, this is low even for low grade heat. Would 2% efficiency even be possible? BTW, some wet CF advocates, at this point, like to throw out the mantra of "sterling engine." Sorry, but the sterling engine is a Carnot device also - and in fact a very expensive engine to produce in terms of manufacturing costs. This is a cursory look at the larger problem of finding an application for a technology that can only produce low grade heat - and that focus should not impugn the technology itself, especially if it can somehow be refocused to find it's proper place. With a little bit of forward thinking, we can see that wet CF has gone about as far as it can be taken without major breakthroughs. It is high time we get on with a variant that does have a proven - or at least an easily-imagined future, based upon well known research in other fields. That could be gas phase, but even that step may not be enough. Cold Fusion, of any variety, depends on one key ingredient, a constant supply of ions... and ions and plasma go together like... well, you know the rest. Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 16:31:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA30896; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:30:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:30:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host p443-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.193.189] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3BA92902.A66F27B4 ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:23:46 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HOW big is the GREEN photon? Re: size of photon References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Wki6X1.0.gY7.kgIgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > Dear vo and Bill, > > A green photon > how big are the photons...? The size of a photon is half it's wave length > > > how do we know this? Due to some interesting experiments by Larry Springs. > > > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Jones Beene wrote: > > > From: "John Schnurer" > > > A light wave of 500 nm ...is the photon 500 nm? > > > > > > A photon of 500 nm appears as green to blue-green to humans. At 650 nm it is > > red. At 450 it turns more bluish. When you throw the spectrum from about 350 > > to 700 together, you have "light," or apparent whiteness. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 17:50:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA23433; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:48:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:48:55 -0700 Message-ID: <001901c1416e$75e2f260$833dee3f User> From: "Nick Reiter" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Nano-particles? (2nd sending) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:49:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"2UZiL3.0.3k5.tpJgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry for the redundancy. I sent this one in earlier this evening, but never got the copy of it back. I see it made it onto the e-scribe archives, but I don't know if it went through to any of the individual list members... ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Reiter To: vortex-L Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 6:02 PM Subject: Nano-particles? > Last week, when Bill B posted the letter about the Tesla Coil ball > lightning, there was an addition to the discussion thread from Frank Z. > about a Scientific American article on the properties of interplanetary dust > in the 50nm size range. Can anyone tell me which issue this article was in? > Nano particle TiO2 and Al2O3 are easily available. I ordered some TiO2 30 > to 50 nm nano-material from Altair technologies in Reno, Nevada. > > NR > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 18:05:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA29576; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:03:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:03:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA9408A.AE90688F ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:04:10 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: Nature Contents: 20 September 2001 Volume 413 No. 6853 pp. 235-332] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"g5ciK.0.1E7.g1Kgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Nature Contents: 20 September 2001 Volume 413 No. 6853 pp. 235-332 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:30:00 -0400 From: Nature Reply-To: Customer Service To: Nature Nature - Table of Contents Now available at http://www.nature.com/nature/ Visit Nature online to browse the content of the current issue, including articles, letters to Nature, brief communications and web extras. Please note that you need to be a subscriber to enjoy full text access to Nature online. To purchase a subscription, please visit http://www.nature.com/nature/subscribe/ Nature Contents: 20 September 2001 Volume 413 No. 6853 (c)Copyright 2001 Macmillan Publishers Ltd ===================================================================== Heredity - An International Journal of Genetics >From 2002, Nature Publishing Group will publish Heredity, a journal of the Genetics Society. Focusing on eukaryotes, the journal publishes key papers on ecological, population and evolutionary genetics, including human population genetics; genomics and post-genomics as applied to evolutionary questions; biometrical and statistical genetics; animal and plant breeding and cytogenetics. For submission and subscription enquiries e-mail us at hdy nature.com ===================================================================== ===================================================================== The content listing below carries links to abstracts ===================================================================== --------------------- articles --------------------- Skeletons of terrestrial cetaceans and the relationship of whales to artiodactyls J G M THEWISSEN, E M WILLIAMS, L J ROE & S T HUSSAIN http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413277a0_fs.html --------------------- letters to Nature --------------------- Microscopic electronic inhomogeneity in the high-Tc superconductor Bi2Sr2CaCu2O8+x S H PAN, J P O'NEAL, R L BADZEY, C CHAMON, H DING, J R ENGELBRECHT, Z WANG, H EISAKI, S UCHIDA, A K GUPTA, K-W NG, E W HUDSON, K M LANG & J C DAVIS http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413282a0_fs.html Friction and fracture E GERDE & M MARDER http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413285a0_fs.html A high-strain-rate superplastic ceramic B-N KIM, K HIRAGA, K MORITA & Y SAKKA http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413288a0_fs.html Ultrafast holographic nanopatterning of biocatalytically formed silica L L BROTT, R R NAIK, D J PIKAS, S M KIRKPATRICK, D W TOMLIN, P W WHITLOCK, S J CLARSON & M O STONE http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413291a0_fs.html High-resolution record of climate stability in France during the last interglacial period P RIOUAL, V ANDRIEU-PONEL, M RIETTI-SHATI, R W BATTARBEE, J-L DE BEAULIEU, R CHEDDADI, M REILLE, H SVOBODOVA & A SHEMESH http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413293a0_fs.html An arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus accelerates decomposition and acquires nitrogen directly from organic material A HODGE, C D CAMPBELL & A H FITTER http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413297a0_fs.html The rhythm of microbial adaptation P GERRISH http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413299a0_fs.html An agrin minigene rescues dystrophic symptoms in a mouse model for congenital muscular dystrophy J MOLL, P BARZAGHI, S LIN, G BEZAKOVA, H LOCHMÜLLER, E ENGVALL, U MÜLLER & M A RUEGG http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413302a0_fs.html Intercellular movement of the putative transcription factor SHR in root patterning K NAKAJIMA, G SENA, T NAWY & P N BENFEY http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413307a0_fs.html Archipelago regulates Cyclin E levels in Drosophila and is mutated in human cancer cell lines K H MOBERG, D W BELL, D C R WAHRER, D A HABER & I K HARIHARAN http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413311a0_fs.html Human F-box protein hCdc4 targets cyclin E for proteolysis and is mutated in a breast cancer cell line H STROHMAIER, C H SPRUCK, P KAISER, K-A WON, O SANGFELT & S I REED http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413316a0_fs.html A mouse knock-in model exposes sequential proteolytic pathways that regulate p27Kip1 in G1 and S phase N P MALEK, H SUNDBERG, S MCGREW, K NAKAYAMA, T R KYRIAKIDIS & J M ROBERTS http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413323a0_fs.html RNA-binding protein Nrd1 directs poly(A)-independent 3prime-end formation of RNA polymerase II transcripts E J STEINMETZ, N K CONRAD, D A BROW & J L CORDEN http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413327a0_fs.html --------------------- brief communications --------------------- Skin Tumours: Neonatal sunburn and melanoma in mice F P NOONAN, J A RECIO, H TAKAYAMA, P DURAY, M R ANVER, W L RUSH, E C DE FABO & G MERLINO http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413271a0_fs.html Fisheries: Population of origin of Atlantic cod E E NIELSEN, M M HANSEN, C SCHMIDT, D MELDRUP & P GRØNKJAER http://www.nature.com/nlink/v413/n6853/abs/413272a0_fs.html ===================================================================== The content listing below is accessible only through a subscription. To purchase a subscription, please visit: http://www.nature.com/nature/subscribe/ ===================================================================== --------------------- opinion --------------------- Fighting against terrorism, engaging with Islamic science --------------------- news --------------------- Scientists react to attacks with shock and fears for the future Technology will assist the fight against terrorism Job refusal sparks row over mind-drug critic Mad cow disease comes to Japan Cancer institute director's exit leaves NIH in the lurch Top researchers plan to snub fertility conference news in brief --------------------- news feature --------------------- Two become one The stowaways --------------------- correspondence --------------------- Probabilities will help us plan for climate change A B PITTOCK, R N JONES & C D MITCHELL Vital parameters need to be in print D BORHANI --------------------- book reviews --------------------- Paradox of the savant mind: A SNYDER reviews Bright Splinters of the Mind: A Personal Story of Research with Autistic Savants by Beate Hermelin Spandrels or selection?: M A GOLDMAN reviews The Evolutionists: The Struggle for Darwin's Soul by Richard Morris Spandrels or selection?: M A GOLDMAN reviews Dawkins vs. Gould: Survival of the Fittest by Kim Sterelny Preaching to the chemical converts: J EMSLEY reviews Stories of the Invisible: A Guided Tour of Molecules by Philip Ball Reading the history of humanity: H JACOBS reviews The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Astonishing Story That Reveals How Each of Us Can Trace Our Genetic Ancestors/The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science That Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry by Bryan Sykes --------------------- words --------------------- Sex, love and science Susan gaines --------------------- concepts --------------------- Green Chemistry: A principled stance Martyn Poliakoff & Paul Anastas --------------------- news and views --------------------- Palaeontology: Walking with whales C DE MUIZON Surface physics: A new crack at friction D A KESSLER 100 and 50 years ago Plant biology: Mobile protein signals cell fate S HAKE Superconductivity: Up on the C60 elevator P GRANT Ecology: Crowd trouble for predators P D MOORE Nonlinear physics: Déjà vu in optics N N AKHMEDIEV Cell cycle: Archipelago of destruction M SCHWAB & M TYERS Daedalus: Genomes and souls D JONES Obituary: Fred Hoyle (1915--2001) J MADDOX ===================================================================== Links to freely available content on www.nature.com ===================================================================== -------------------------------- feature of the week -------------------------------- When whales walked the earth http://www.nature.com/nature/fow/ --------------------------------- nature science update --------------------------------- This week's Nature Science Update http://www.nature.com/nsu includes: Mice give skin cancer clue Mouse studies emphasize children's cancer risk from sunburn http://www.nature.com/nsu/010920/010920-10.html Caterpillars beat tattoo Moth larvae defend their homes with bad vibrations http://www.nature.com/nsu/010920/010920-5.html Heart joins head in moral maze People may rely on emotion as much as reason deciding moral dilemmas http://www.nature.com/nsu/010920/010920-1.html --------------------------------- jobs and careers --------------------------------- Naturejobs.com is here. Leading-edge tools, editorial, resources and naturally top global job postings in one site. Register your resume/CV so employers hunt for YOU. Plus our powerful Job Alerts can send you vacancies directly by e-mail. And if you're not seeking a new position you'll also find the site a valuable resource. http://www.naturejobs.com/ Naturejobs - making science work ===================================================================== As a registered user of the Nature Publishing Group of web sites, you were selected to receive this message in the genuine belief that it would be of interest to you. If you no longer wish to receive news and announcements from the Nature Publishing Group please update your online account details at: http://www.nature.com/registration/Modify_registration.taf (You will need to log in to be recognised as a Nature registrant) To discontinue all email services from the Nature Publishing Group click on the link below: http://www.nature.com/marketing/unsubscribe/ For further technical assistance, please contact: mailto:registration nature.com For print subscription enquiries, please contact: mailto:subscriptions nature.com For other enquiries, please contact: mailto:feedback nature.com Nature's worldwide offices: London . Madrid . Paris . Munich . Moscow . New Delhi . Tokyo Melbourne . San Francisco . Washington . New York From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 19:14:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA25150; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:12:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:12:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:12:46 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HOW big is the GREEN photon? Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"sHp3p1.0.s86.Y2Lgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, John Schnurer wrote: > A green photon > how big are the photons...? > how do we know this? Photons are thought to be point-particles, so all photons have the same size: zero. Light waves are not photons. A light wave can be billions of miles across and billions of miles thick (or way more than that, of course.) You should ask "do photons have any internal structure?" I don't know the answer to that. PS, in "Schrodinger's Kittlens" I recently read that Max Planck never accepted the existence of photons. He thought that the waves were real, but that interactions with atoms were quantized. I wonder what he would have thought of "spooky correlations", EPR, Aspect experiment, etc. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 19:33:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA00804; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:32:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:32:23 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:40:08 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: William Beaty cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HOW big is the GREEN photon? Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"GRwQ22.0.QC.tKLgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Bill, This began as a discussion where a fellow said 'light photons are miles long' in one post and then said they were several times the wavelength in another post and then said that ".....radio wavelength photons can be were miles long, as I have said before. ......" SO: I windered what what what. I sort of looked at a photon wave-particle is the WL was, say 500 nm to be 500 plus 250...this would take in the 500 of a whole E cycle and the overlapping magnetic cycle ... J But then we have the answers of correlation and laser photon being longer....so I am searching for the HISTORY of why we say what about 'em! J On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, William Beaty wrote: > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, John Schnurer wrote: > > A green photon > > how big are the photons...? > > how do we know this? > > Photons are thought to be point-particles, so all photons have the same > size: zero. > > Light waves are not photons. A light wave can be billions of miles across > and billions of miles thick (or way more than that, of course.) > > You should ask "do photons have any internal structure?" I don't know the > answer to that. > > PS, in "Schrodinger's Kittlens" I recently read that Max Planck never > accepted the existence of photons. He thought that the waves were real, > but that interactions with atoms were quantized. I wonder what he would > have thought of "spooky correlations", EPR, Aspect experiment, etc. > > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 19:54:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA08013; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:53:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:53:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:53:44 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Vortex Subject: Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"cNtK71.0.6z1.zeLgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, hank scudder wrote: > John > The length of a photon is the duration of it Times the speed of > light. > A good measure of it is the decorrelation length. Generally about > 10 nanoseconds duration, so about 10x10-8sec times 3x10+8 m/sec or 30 m > long for an ordinary light source such as a mercury arc green line. Lasers > can have much more coherence, so they have much longer photons. That's not the length of a photon, that's the length of the wave emitted by an undisturbed atom. If an atom is knocked about as it fluoresces, the emitted wave will have random jumps in its phase, and one part of the wave will not be in phase-coherence with other parts. If you could hold an atom in a trap and force it to fluoresce, the length of a "pure" wave with no jumps in phase would be even longer, but the photons would still have the same size: zero. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 19:59:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA11163; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:58:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:58:32 -0700 Message-ID: <02d601c14169$9df93110$6401a8c0 cs910664a> From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917104327.03844470 pop.mindspring.com> <01091713472400.01370@tyrannosaur> <021d01c13fcd$87fa06c0$6401a8c0@cs910664a> <01091722443300.01249@tyrannosaur> <20010919122443.K721@tao.org.uk> Subject: Re: Afghanistan Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:17:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"0CT0_2.0.Ak2.NjLgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Josef, With a new virus going around can you please confirm that your attachment was sent manually, and that it is clear? Thanks, Colin Quinney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josef Karthauser" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:24 AM Subject: Re: Afghanistan --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.280 / Virus Database: 147 - Release Date: 9/12/2001 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 20:26:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA23307; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:25:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:25:16 -0700 Sender: hoyt eskimo.com Message-ID: <3BA961A3.E8BE191A home.com> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:25:23 -0700 From: "Hoyt Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HOW big is the GREEN photon? Re: size of photon References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q2EGz.0.4i5.R6Mgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, John Schnurer wrote: > > A green photon > > how big are the photons...? > > how do we know this? > We at ISUS (reciprocal system) say that the photon is precisely 1 unit length in diameter, 45.6nm, the same as all fundamental particles. See: http://www.rsystem.org/rs/cwkvk/photbirot.htm Hoyt Stearns, Phoenix From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 20:27:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA23902; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:26:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:26:23 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:20:51 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <92oiqt8pl0ejg8oqqj64r5ocmm8hbj4htl 4ax.com> References: <884iqtsa6t928t33hov953uprjtjrk11ea 4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA22612 Resent-Message-ID: <"EgHI7.0.Hr5.V7Mgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to hank scudder's message of Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:26:37 -0700: >Robin > What you say would be true if the width of the filter was very >small, but it wasn't. All it did was separate out the green line from the >blue ones, and orange and lower. > >Hank Well, I said I was no expert, but perhaps you could explain what the width of the filter has to do with colour separation (as I was also referring to the latter). > > > > > >On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> In reply to hank scudder's message of Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:48:53 -0700: >> >> >John >> > I used a Michaelson interferometer with a mercury vapor lamp with >> >a green filter that was quite sharp, so only the green line came >> >through. This was in Advanced Physics lab in college. The adjustable >> >mirror was set up so that it was meter steps away from the detector. At >> >some distance the interference fringes disappear, which means that >> >separate photons are hitting the detector-in this case my eye, and they >> >did not overlap the portion of the light travelling the standard path. You >> >could do something similar, or you could use "white light" from a light >> >bulb as a source, and move the adjustable mirror only a little bit to lose >> >the fringes. However it is quite hard to setup as the two path lenghts >> >have to be exactly equal to see the white light fringes in the first >> >place. The green light is much easier to set up. >> >> I'm far from an expert here, but my gut reaction says that the distance >> you are talking about here is determined by the sharpness of the filter. >> I.e. the sharper the filter, the greater the distance. Using a laser >> would result in much larger distances. IOW it depends on the mix of >> frequencies present in the light, as much as the actual degree of >> coherence (phase agreement) of the individual photons. >> >> More to the point perhaps, I don't see what coherence has to do with >> "photon length". Side note, if Mills is correct, then photons are >> spherical, and I think the wavelength equals the circumference. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> >> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ >> >> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! >> Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 21:06:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA05983; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:03:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:03:56 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010919215412.00a3e910 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:10:40 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: RE: Solutions In-Reply-To: <01C13FCA.7038D140.dequickert ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ftXom1.0.OT1.igMgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:45 PM 9/17/01 -0700, you wrote: >On Monday, September 17, 2001 7:42 PM, John Berry wrote: > > How might this current wave of terrorism cease? > > > >Not by force. > >IMHO the best solution/preventative measure we could take would be to use >that $40 Billion to improve the lives of common people in the 'problem' >areas. Instead of bombing Afghanistan into the stone age (not necessary, >they're about there already), we could rebuild their infrastructure with a >fraction of that money, and show the world by example what we are truly >made of. > >Dan Quickert Dan: I think the question here is not how much money we have spent supporting the impoverished arias. We have been helping and that $40 billion is a drop in the bucket. The question is how many times do you have to be hit before you hit back Terrorists have been with us since the mid 70s. The message here is not "give us peace, freedom and stability" it is more like "give us war destruction and chaos" You are a rational human being. Rational human beings will seek justice. Rational human beings will seek piece. Rational human beings will seek to save lives. Terrorists are not rational. These suicidal fanatics seek only to serve hatred. Don't bother trying you can't think like that. The real issue here is innocent lives. You see there will be more attacks. It does not matter if we respond or not they will hit us again and again. These attacks are driven by and serve hatred. It is already too late to change this. The only and correct solution is total destruction of the culture that breeds this hatred. We would have to kill or permanently imprison all of the people that are trapped by this hatred. This is the only way to stop it. Leave behind only the rational human beings. Now... How do you tell the difference? A small truism comes to mind from an old star trek episode. "It is much easier for civilized men to act like barbarians then for barbarians to act like civilized men." They will expose themselves in time. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 21:34:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA16984; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:33:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:33:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA971BE.BDA339AD mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:34:06 -0400 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solutions References: <4.2.0.58.20010919215412.00a3e910 pop.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rH9_J3.0.A94.C6Ngx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If you want to understand the mind set, you might consider some of the christian fundamentalists...that use the bible as a basis for racial hatred of blacks... Their thinking is similar... thanks for listening to my thoughts... steve Charles Ford wrote: > > At 10:45 PM 9/17/01 -0700, you wrote: > >On Monday, September 17, 2001 7:42 PM, John Berry wrote: > > > How might this current wave of terrorism cease? > > > > > > >Not by force. > > > >IMHO the best solution/preventative measure we could take would be to use > >that $40 Billion to improve the lives of common people in the 'problem' > >areas. Instead of bombing Afghanistan into the stone age (not necessary, > >they're about there already), we could rebuild their infrastructure with a > >fraction of that money, and show the world by example what we are truly > >made of. > > > >Dan Quickert > > Dan: > > I think the question here is not how much money we have spent supporting > the impoverished arias. We have been helping and that $40 billion is a > drop in the bucket. > > The question is how many times do you have to be hit before you hit back > > Terrorists have been with us since the mid 70s. The message here is not > "give us peace, freedom and stability" it is more like "give us war > destruction and chaos" > > You are a rational human being. Rational human beings will seek justice. > Rational human beings will seek piece. Rational human beings will seek to > save lives. Terrorists are not rational. These suicidal fanatics seek > only to serve hatred. Don't bother trying you can't think like that. > > The real issue here is innocent lives. You see there will be more attacks. > It does not matter if we respond or not they will hit us again and again. > These attacks are driven by and serve hatred. It is already too late to > change this. > > The only and correct solution is total destruction of the culture that > breeds this hatred. We would have to kill or permanently imprison all of the > people that are trapped by this hatred. This is the only way to stop it. > Leave behind only the rational human beings. > > Now... > > How do you tell the difference? > > A small truism comes to mind from an old star trek episode. > "It is much easier for civilized men to act like barbarians then > for barbarians to act like civilized men." They will expose themselves > in time. > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 19 23:17:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA29353; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:14:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host p63-nas8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.218.63] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3BA986C6.132DECFC ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:03:50 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hameltech yahoogroups.com, Mr_Tracys_Corner@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l eskimo.com, intj-list@yahoogroups.com, jlnlabs yahoogroups.com, digital-dowsers@yahoogroups.com, CDV700CLUB yahoogroups.com, ATN@sas.org, "geodowser yahoogroups.com" , Colin Quinney Subject: [Fwd: [RealityShifters] SPECIAL ALERT FROM Sixth Sense Support Group] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------921922BBDC58801655E325C4" Resent-Message-ID: <"yLa5o2.0.ZA7.8bOgx" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------921922BBDC58801655E325C4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know many people who had dreams of buildings blowing up and planes crashing into towers days before the 11th. There was also someone from germany who apparently rang some agency as he knew it was going to happen but was ignored. So I think it would be very foolish to ignore such a warning now, remember people have all ready been arrested for attempting to Hijack more planes. Maybe the more people who have really been warned the less likely it is to happen. --------------921922BBDC58801655E325C4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Delivered-To: antigrav a.pop.ihug.co.nz Received: (qmail 17190 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2001 05:54:01 -0000 Received: from mx1-1.ihug.co.nz (HELO mx1.ihug.co.nz) (203.109.254.17) by bob.ihug.co.nz with SMTP; 20 Sep 2001 05:54:01 -0000 Received: from n4.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.54] by mx1.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 15jwme-000894-00; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:54:00 +1200 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-1828746-1701-1000965207-antigrav=ihug.co.nz returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Sep 2001 05:53:28 -0000 X-Sender: enki csrlink.net X-Apparently-To: RealityShifters yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 20 Sep 2001 05:53:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 6900 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2001 05:53:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Sep 2001 05:53:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Sep 2001 05:53:21 -0000 Received: from csrlink.net (pawilk-tnt2-50-29.sunlink.net [64.41.50.29]) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA11556; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BA98A06.B34600A1 csrlink.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: AUP From: Mike Johnston MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list RealityShifters yahoogroups.com; contact RealityShifters-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list RealityShifters yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:17:42 -0400 Reply-To: RealityShifters yahoogroups.com Subject: [RealityShifters] SPECIAL ALERT FROM Sixth Sense Support Group Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 This is a Special Alert issued by the International Ghost Hunters
Society on behalf of members of our Sixth Sense Support Group.
The members in this support group have a special gift . . . they can see and hear the spirits of the dead, just as in the film staring
Bruce Willis called Sixth Sense. These members are "Sensitives" a= nd as
such, they have tapped into that special communication
link to the walking dead. This Special Alert is for the purpose of
warning what MIGHT happen to the coming days ahead. If nothing
happened, so much the better as no one in the group wants to see more
death and destruction.
Since the terrible Black Tuesday, the group has been experiencing
remarkable communications with spirits and in dreams that
suggest the terrorist attacks are not over, but will continue to plague
America. The following experiences are share with you
because the collective group wants to tell somebody what they are seeing and feeling. Most members had nightmares the night
before the terrorist attacked the Pentagon and the WTC. Some saw planes
crashing into the WTC in their dreams. Others saw
sparks, which may be the souls of those who were to perish in the
terrorist attack. Many of the members either had friends, family
or they themselves worked in either the Pentagon or WTC.
I have assembled many of the quotes that were sent by members of this
special group as they expressed among themselves what
they were feeling, what they were seeing and what they were dreaming.
The dead do contact us in dreams as that is when our
conscious mind is closed down and access to our subconscious mind is
open and receptive.  I would not release this information if I
did not believe in what they were saying. I agree with them that this
terrorism is not over for America and more is to follow, only this
time on the West Coast! As more information is made available to them, I will issue another Special Alert.
As one member said, "I know we all felt on edge about 10 days ago, whe= re
a lot of us were weepy and sad. We may have been
feeling the premature affects of what was to come early. I don't know,
but I find that very pertinent that we were all in agreement that
something was very wrong."
The following quotes suggest that we are in for more suffering from
terrorist attacks:
"This is not the end by any means. Our abilities are going to be put t= o
the test. I don't feel like our just talking to spirits is going to
be enough. I don't know the whole picture, but I feel like something
bigger is going to be transpiring, and those of us who are
sensitive will be affected much more in the process."
"The only thing I have been feeling is spirits of the children that we= re
in the attack. They're lost & confused. Looking for their
=E2=80=98mommies'. All I can do is hug them & tell them to go towards t= he warm
light. I don't know what else to do."
"I think another building's going to go down, address 1111 something,<= BR> important bldg. It's either in Florida or LA."
"It's near the water!"
"Either Los Angeles or Vegas is what I'm getting."
"I see 1111 everywhere, also could be part of zip code maybe? Or phone=
#? Seeing fire in windows, voices are loud."
"Oh and it's a very tall white building, lots of windows."
"I think it's LA cause I see things falling into the ocean."
"It was down town LA. The I was looking at Beverly hills and there on<= BR> Rodeo drive was the #1111. On a building and there was a car
going into there as well. It to exploded."
"My vision . . . the red symbol wasn't the airline, it was the Marriot= 's
hotel symbol!"
"I could definitely see a plane crashing into that hotel. Very scary.&= quot;
The Man in Black said, "YOU! YOU stay away from RED buses, and YOU sta= y
away from the Marriot. How many times am I going
to have to tell you!"
"When we went to bed my wife heard a couple ghosts chatting about the<= BR> terrorist attempts. They gave us a clue that another
terrorist attempt may happen either October 11th or 22th of this year."= ;
"The man in black kept coming for me. At first I would not go. Then I<= BR> finally gave in and went. I kept asking him were I was going. He
would not answer me and that was making me upset. When we stopped
walking I was back in LA. We were walking around down
town and seeing all of those faces. We get to were the heart of down
town is and there was this Hotel. In the drive way thing in front
was a big bus. You know like Greyhounds. Well, the people on that bus
looked upset and there was "Arab" looking man. He was in
the driver seat. He took the bus right into the hotel lobby. It then
exploded and there were many lives that were took. I noticed the
bus number had 111 in it. As if I was there all along I was right on
Beverly Hills streets. The same thing. What I thought was odd it's
not a plane but a bus."
"Again he (Man in Black)  was here and I'm going out of my wit's.= It's
3:29 in the morning and all know I'm not normally up this early.
He took me back again to LA. I don't know why but besides LA and Beverly Hills. He took me to Sacramento. Again the same thing
with the bus. I wish I could see the day I know it has a chill in the
air so it may be November 11."
The Man in Black spoken of in the above quotes have been described as an entity that appears in black with a black top hat. He has
been described as a spiritual gatekeeper, a harbinger of death, a
universal warning and even as a gunslinger like appearance with
the long overcoat worn like those in Clint Eastwood Westerns. The Man in Black has appeared for many years to most of the
members of this group. Some members report first seeing him when they
were a child. In any case, the Man in Black may be
considered somewhat like the Grim Reaper. When he appears, death is not
far behind.
It is apparent that the security on airlines have finally been updated,
but we have no security in place for those using the buses. This
could be anything from sightseeing, charter or  commercial
transportation buses.


End of Special Alert.
Yahoo! Groups Spons= or
ADVERTISEMENT
3D""

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--------------921922BBDC58801655E325C4-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 02:59:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA07639; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:59:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:52:34 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id CAA07616 Resent-Message-ID: <"BqeaE.0.Ht1.itRgx" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A In reply to William Beaty's message of Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:53:44 -0700: [snip] >That's not the length of a photon, that's the length of the wave emitted >by an undisturbed atom. If an atom is knocked about as it fluoresces, the >emitted wave will have random jumps in its phase, and one part of the wave >will not be in phase-coherence with other parts. This should result in the same atom emitting a single photon that has two different colours, as part of it is Doppler shifted, relative to the other part. >If you could hold an >atom in a trap and force it to fluoresce, the length of a "pure" wave with >no jumps in phase would be even longer, but the photons would still have >the same size: zero. Since photons have a known energy, if they had zero size, their energy density would be infinite. I think this is unlikely. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 02:59:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA13151; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:59:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:59:08 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solutions Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:57:59 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <76fjqtcmqo99llkkfrqvqad3ansciguf0c 4ax.com> References: <01C13FCA.7038D140.dequickert ucdavis.edu> <4.2.0.58.20010919215412.00a3e910@pop.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010919215412.00a3e910 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id CAA12980 Resent-Message-ID: <"BrsXi.0.PD3.htRgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Charles Ford's message of Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:10:40 -0500: [snip] >The only and correct solution is total destruction of the culture that >breeds this hatred. We would have to kill or permanently imprison all of the >people that are trapped by this hatred. This is the only way to stop it. >Leave behind only the rational human beings. > >Now... > >How do you tell the difference? > >A small truism comes to mind from an old star trek episode. >"It is much easier for civilized men to act like barbarians then >for barbarians to act like civilized men." They will expose themselves >in time. [snip] Much and all as I like star trek, I think that if history has taught us anything, then it is that all people are capable of hatred to some extent. I fear that if you try to annihilate all of them, you will be the only person left on Earth. My guess is you will get very lonely. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 03:23:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA18680; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 03:22:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 03:22:43 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c141be$e3787ac0$0c8e209a ggrf30j> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917122146.00aa0738 pop.mindspring.com> <00c101c14031$ee1ae640$ac8f209a@ggrf30j> <3BA75429.4D65BE8E@bigfoot.com> Subject: Re: Amateur Scientists fight terrorism Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:20:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"bXr1A.0.iZ4.oDSgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charlie Hodgson wrote: I find that unbelievable. What would have been the "colour" of that temperature? Ultra violet? Watch the tapes - plain ordinary "drop a can of petrol on the bonfire" type flames. Jed referenced a NY Times article which he wrote "refutes (my) claims". I read all of it - it does not do anything of the kind. Bear in mind that 20,000 gallons is a volume of fuel only about the same size as my living room. I must admit I assumed that all fuel tanks on the aircraft were ruptured - a 300'ish mph crash into a building with steel structure must have enough kinetic energy to do that. If you look at the video footage, particularly the second impact, you will see that an enormous fireball comes out the back of the building (and smaller ones out the sides). Could anyone here estimate how many gallons those fireballs contained? I repeat, what felled the buildings was the combustion of ordinary office materials on a large scale. JED: I said "that fuel that was left inside the building". Even if the majority didn't go out the sides and it "burned completely in a few minutes" one would simply have had a bigger fireball (there was plenty of air supply to the interior of the fire from the central core) - what is the maximum temperature of a kerosene fire in ordinary atmosphere - 800-850 degrees? Not enough to vapourise steel. The designed-in fire protection around the structural steel was supposed to stand up to something like 600 degrees for over an hour. JED: Jet fuel going out at a couple of hundred miles an hour into relatively stationary air would form an aerosol and combust before falling. It's probable that the updraught from such an enormous fireball was easily strong enough to counter gravity. I questioned the point of designing the buildings to withstand such an impact if they would then collapse and Jed said JED: Subject: Update on hydrino confirmation To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <002601c141ce$f7ca8e40$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"0G3lK1.0.756.r2Ugx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The identity of the Dr. Watson who has confirmed Mills' work is revealed: Gentlemen: First, the Dr. James Watson that was referred to in a previous e-mail is my cousin, and even more opinionated then I am. [That would be the famous discoverer of DNA. I believe that this Dr Watson is also the grandson of the founder of IBM - JB] [snip] Fourth, we are certain that the work of Dr. Mills is valid [snip] DR.JAMES WATSON, PRESIDENT CELLULAR DIMORPHISM INSTITUTE WEST LOS ANGELES VAMC LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, 90073, U.S.A. A quirky irony for the Mills' detractors, should Dr. Watson's confirmation be proven to be valid, is that the very energy that the detractors are mustering in their sometimes slanderous efforts, comes from a metabolic pathway in their bodies that utilizes the free energy of the hydrino. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 06:23:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA08951; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:21:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:21:12 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:21:29 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Afghanistan Message-ID: <20010920142129.K52323 tao.org.uk> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917104327.03844470 pop.mindspring.com> <01091713472400.01370@tyrannosaur> <021d01c13fcd$87fa06c0$6401a8c0@cs910664a> <01091722443300.01249@tyrannosaur> <20010919122443.K721@tao.org.uk> <02d601c14169$9df93110$6401a8c0@cs910664a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/rDaUNvWv5XYRSKj" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <02d601c14169$9df93110$6401a8c0 cs910664a>; from crquin@home.com on Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 08:17:17PM -0400 Resent-Message-ID: <"tGWK33.0.jB2.8rUgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --/rDaUNvWv5XYRSKj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 08:17:17PM -0400, Colin Quinney wrote: > Josef, >=20 > With a new virus going around can you please confirm that your attachment > was sent manually, and that it is clear? >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Colin Quinney My attachement is a pgp signature. It's a cryptographic way of proving that I wrote the attached email. My key fingerprint is: pub 1024D/E6B15016 2000-10-19 Josef Karthauser Key fingerprint =3D 7266 8EAF 82C2 D439 5642 AC26 5D52 1C8C E6B1 5016 uid Josef Karthauser uid Josef Karthauser uid [revoked] Josef Karthauser uid [revoked] Josef Karthauser sub 2048g/1178B692 2000-10-19 It's quite safe and benign. Joe --/rDaUNvWv5XYRSKj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjup7VgACgkQXVIcjOaxUBYz6gCgsPJequgUSNoyQvzbYu9/2nH3 vLQAoLsHSlWOCxSV1OvJT/ZxSfi8pLpU =i3AC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/rDaUNvWv5XYRSKj-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 06:23:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA09716; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:23:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:23:25 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:23:43 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Afghanistan Message-ID: <20010920142343.L52323 tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Resent-Message-ID: <"QykT12.0.kN2.DtUgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: [Here's the same email unsigned.] On Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 08:17:17PM -0400, Colin Quinney wrote: > Josef, > > With a new virus going around can you please confirm that your attachment > was sent manually, and that it is clear? > > Thanks, > > Colin Quinney My attachement is a pgp signature. It's a cryptographic way of proving that I wrote the attached email. My key fingerprint is: pub 1024D/E6B15016 2000-10-19 Josef Karthauser Key fingerprint = 7266 8EAF 82C2 D439 5642 AC26 5D52 1C8C E6B1 5016 uid Josef Karthauser uid Josef Karthauser uid [revoked] Josef Karthauser uid [revoked] Josef Karthauser sub 2048g/1178B692 2000-10-19 It's quite safe and benign. Joe From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 06:47:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19284; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:46:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:46:55 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:42:12 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Stirling powered wet CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <003b01c141da$0ddc4560$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"G_l5L3.0.Ej4.FDVgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Perhaps the best hope of utilizing wet CF in automotive application is the Stirling engine. But is it really a possibility? Here are some further thoughts (from an observer who thinks not - paraphrased from internet sources). Although properly designed Stirling engines have a high potential efficiency, and can utilize low grade heat, the actual efficiency in practice using high grade heat has proven to be not much higher than the modern diesel engine* and the feasibility of a mobile unit using low grade heat is altogether doubtful, due to the intractable engineering difficulties on the cold side. There exists numerous other disadvantages such as high cost due to increased manufacturing tolerances, greatly increased engine weight and bulk relative to output (with low grade heat), and unproven reliability in actual service, but the main problem is the absolute requirement of top notch cooling of the cold side in order to maintain a temperature differential as high as possible. *B. Ross, “Modern World of Stirling Engines.” Stirling Machine World. 1995 The formula for estimating the efficiency of a Stirling engine is: (Temperature of the hot side (in degrees Kelvin) - Temperature of the cold side)/ Temp of hot side x 100. This figure equals the max theoretical efficiency, but that is only the first part of the equation. Next we need to figure out what percentage of max theoretical efficiency is possible in actual operation (the correction factor). This is the main reason that you don't see many sterling engines on the road. Sterling engines can achieve upwards to 50% of max theoretical efficiency using low grade heat when they have a large free heat-sink like a river or an ocean to chill the cold side, but when the cold side must be chilled by forced air convection, then this 50% of theoretical can drop very fast. No one wants to contemplate a situation where on a hot day a driver could end up in a stall unless gigantic radiators have been provided (upwards to 50 square feet for a 40 kWh engine). If your Stirling engine is to be powered by a wet CF cell, then the maximum possible heat differential between the cold and hot sides is starting out at about 200 degrees C. and that would not be too bad if the cold side could be maintained near ambient. You may hear some commentators saying that a CF powered Stirling can achieve 15-18% efficiency but they are giving you max theoretical efficiency using an ideal heat sink and have not even applied the second part of the equation mentioned above (the correction factor). The further problem exists when you need high energy density from your power plant, as in automotive, and your only access cooling is forced air convection and you must engineer the vehicle for extremes in air temperature and most of all, make it desirable to the consumer. An aesthetic limitation therefore exists in the size of the radiator you can tolerate and the amount of parasitic energy you can devote to achieving connective air flow. If one chooses a moderate sized radiator, then the 200 degree differential can easily drop to 100 degrees and the 50% correction can drop to 20%, so that you are stuck with very close to zero efficiency. For any vehicle designer to contemplate using a Stirling engine in an automotive application, he would have to begin by finding a physical location for the enormously large cooling system, which would need to be external to a very large and expensive engine block. A similar problem to this is what killed the efforts to revive steam power in modern times. A final problem and one that has been overlooked in the past, relates to just how will the rest of society will view any transportation idea that proposes to expel much more low grade heat into the environment, relative to the power it provides. The heat that is expelled would not be toxic in itself, like much of hydrocarbon combustion, but there would be perhaps 10 time more low grade heat expelled into the environment relative to useful power with wet CF compared to hydrocarbon combustion. This added heat burden would likely be acceptable only in the situation where all of the following possibilities have aligned: 1.) fossil fuel costs has increase by several fold 2.) wet CF has been perfected from a reliability standpoint 3.) no other competitive forms of CF (gas phase or plasma) are feasible 4.) hydrogen fuel, made from biomass, solar, photosynthesis, or nuclear power is too expensive 5.) no improvements in battery technology are forthcoming 6.) no other forms of free energy, such as K. Shoulder's EVs are forthcoming If all of these things fall into place, then maybe there will be a future for the car of the future to be powered by a wet CF cell. Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 06:48:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA19815; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:48:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:48:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3BA9F3AC.C2BE93CA verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:48:28 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Solutions References: <4.2.0.58.20010919215412.00a3e910 pop.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Tz4Hb1.0.Wr4.OEVgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: > > > You are a rational human being. Rational human beings will seek justice. > Rational human beings will seek piece. Rational human beings will seek to > save lives. Terrorists are not rational. These suicidal fanatics seek > only to serve hatred. Don't bother trying you can't think like that. > Put terrorists in place of soldiers and their organization in place of army. An army can load a soldier mind with anything it want, rational or irrational. A soldier is conditioned to obey orders without reasoning. You can order a soldier to kill anybody including himself. In turn, a terrorist organization can be contracted to perform a specific job, by offering money or other profits. This become a kind of business. Even the person or group hiring the terrorists may have profit from this, so the loop is closed rationally. This is rational as Mafia is rational. Criminal but have a reason. I see 3 arguments on this attack supporting the model where terrorist organization is subcontractor: 1) Large budget to realize this attack. This budget can not be financed by the terrorists by themselves. 2) Redundancy for assuring the success. 3) Efficiency. Impact is large enough to have effect on dynamic of the world. This may provide ways to create profits, economic and political to some parties. hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 09:14:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14640; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:13:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:13:42 -0700 Message-ID: <01C141B5.0FBEE7E0.dequickert ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Solutions Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:15:50 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TzRgb2.0.ea3.rMXgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday, September 19, 2001 9:11 PM, Charles Ford wrote: > These attacks are driven by and serve hatred. > How do you tell the difference? How do you tell the difference between their hatred and yours? They _both_ arose from injustices and the killing of innocent civilians ("collateral damage"). To know that, you have to look at the _complete_ history of both sides here, with an open and unbiased mind. Unless you can , as you state, "kill or permanently imprison all of the people" of whom you speak, _and_ anyone who might view your actions as immoral (that would include a large portion of your 'rational humans'), you will be generating far more hatred than you can possibly eradicate. Not a good idea. >"It is much easier for civilized men to act like barbarians then >for barbarians to act like civilized men." They will expose themselves >in time. Definitely. ;-) -Dan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 09:16:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15310; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:15:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:15:24 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920120953.00aa17c8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:15:40 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Let's try to get back on topic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"tbNgv.0.xk3.QOXgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Naturally everyone is upset by last week's tragedy, and writing about it helps. Many aspects of it are on-topic here. But there are many other e-mail forums about the tragedy, so I would like to request that people take discussions about politics and Afghanistan elsewhere. I have often been guilty of posting off-topic messages myself, so this is friendly request, not a complaint. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 09:26:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20835; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:25:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:25:05 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:25:27 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF In-Reply-To: <003b01c141da$0ddc4560$aa69fea9 cpq> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"OpOeb.0.S55.XXXgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Perhaps the best hope of utilizing wet CF in automotive application is the >Stirling engine. Why? I have never heard this before. Stirling engines are low efficiency. Why not use a conventional small steam turbine, or thermoelectric (TE) devices? >Although properly designed Stirling engines have a high potential >efficiency, and can utilize low grade heat . . . Why would you produce low grade heat in an automobile engine? I would make it high grade, at least 250 to 300 deg C. I do not know of any reason to think that pressurized water or gas loaded CF cells cannot work well at these temperatures. >You may hear some commentators saying that a CF powered Stirling can >achieve 15-18% efficiency but they are giving you max theoretical >efficiency using an ideal heat sink and have not even applied the second >part of the equation mentioned above (the correction factor). That's lousy efficiency. The engine would have to be bulky. I cannot understand why there is any advantage to a Stirling. Conventional TE are also inefficient, but I hope they can be improved. At a thousands of degrees they work well. Perhaps a glow discharge CF reaction might drive one. No matter how you design a CF heat engine, you would have to struggle to come up with something as inefficient as today's ICE, which is a 120-year-old Rube Goldberg contraption. I expect a first-generation CF engine will be roughly as efficient as a hybrid ICE, which is 2 or 3 times better than a conventional ICE, at 50 to 60 mpg in a 4-passenger sedan. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 10:40:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA17117; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:39:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:39:52 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Update on hydrino confirmation Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:48:07 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <002601c141ce$f7ca8e40$aa69fea9 cpq> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"-8k-P1.0.NB4.edYgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi. Just to be clear(er), the James Watson that is claiming these extraordinary results IS the cousin of the James Watson who co-discovered the structure of DNA. Or I am badly mistaken from reading Hydrino list. What this reminds me of is the work of the French scientist kevran, amongst others. Actually, this idea has an easy test. In true vortex fashion, I call upon some of our regulars for assistance in an experiment. First, we need a dewar. A really big dewar. Big enough to fit, say....Mitchell Jones. Now we feed Mitch McDonalds hamburgers (not very healthy but very well defined caloric quantity) and we watch the temperature rise. Should be easy to tell after a few days if he's OU or not. He'll prune up after a few hours, but a wetsuit is out of the question as the thermal time constant would be increased unreasonably. This seems cruel, but I bet if we give him a drink and disguise the dewar as a jacuzzi he'd be pretty happy to go along with it. Hell, it's starting to appeal to ME now... Additionally, I suggest that catalysts will help accelerate the action, although the one's Mills suggest are far too tiny. My catalyst consists of a small quantity of Jed Rothwell. Based on previous analysis of Mitch's reaction rate, I anticipate a bit of Jed in the reaction chamber will easily up the excess heat by an order of magnitude or more. I myself am a catalyst of sorts, but a poor one judging from my results. Oh well. But seriously, energy imbalances in organisms are pretty easy to test. I'm curious if they have done some kind of gross test to confirm this idea. K. -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 8:23 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Update on hydrino confirmation The identity of the Dr. Watson who has confirmed Mills' work is revealed: Gentlemen: First, the Dr. James Watson that was referred to in a previous e-mail is my cousin, and even more opinionated then I am. [That would be the famous discoverer of DNA. I believe that this Dr Watson is also the grandson of the founder of IBM - JB] [snip] Fourth, we are certain that the work of Dr. Mills is valid [snip] DR.JAMES WATSON, PRESIDENT CELLULAR DIMORPHISM INSTITUTE WEST LOS ANGELES VAMC LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, 90073, U.S.A. A quirky irony for the Mills' detractors, should Dr. Watson's confirmation be proven to be valid, is that the very energy that the detractors are mustering in their sometimes slanderous efforts, comes from a metabolic pathway in their bodies that utilizes the free energy of the hydrino. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 10:53:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA23646; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:53:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:53:08 -0700 From: slajoie u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:07:30 -0800 Message-Id: <1001005650.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> To: Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"LMeMH1.0.Jn5.4qYgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------Included Message---------- > Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:25:27 -0400 > From: "Jed Rothwell" > Reply-To: > To: , > Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF > > Jones Beene wrote: > > >Perhaps the best hope of utilizing wet CF in automotive application is the > >Stirling engine. > > Why? I have never heard this before. Stirling engines are low > efficiency. Stirling engines have the maximum theoritical efficiency. More power can be obtained from other thermodynamic cycles for a given engine size is what I think you meant. > Why not use a conventional small steam turbine, or thermoelectric (TE) > devices? Sounds more practical to me, too. > >Although properly designed Stirling engines have a high potential > >efficiency, and can utilize low grade heat . . . > > Why would you produce low grade heat in an automobile engine? I would make > it high grade, at least 250 to 300 deg C. I do not know of any reason to > think that pressurized water or gas loaded CF cells cannot work well at > these temperatures. One problem is that the higher the operating temperature of the metal hydride, the higher the pressure you have to have to maintain loading of the metal. It is not a linear effect, either. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 10:55:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA24842; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:55:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:55:32 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:50:34 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <008701c141fc$bffbd180$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"kl-Xr.0._36.JsYgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: First, I hope that your message today imploring others on this forum to get away from the "current situation" for a while, will be taken to heart. Probably more than a few of us are periodically bouncing around to other forums that specialize in world events, when we can stomach it, and we would rather not be constantly harangued with these terrible thoughts everywhere we turn. From: "Jed Rothwell" > Why not use a conventional small steam turbine, or thermoelectric (TE) devices? Because the low grade heat from a wet CF cell is insufficient for these conversion devices. A small steam turbine has less Carnot efficiency than a sterling engine and efficient TE devices require higher temps than wet CF, as well. > >Although properly designed Stirling engines have a high potential > >efficiency, and can utilize low grade heat . . . > Why would you produce low grade heat in an automobile engine? I would make it high grade, at least 250 to 300 deg C. Again, 250 to 300 deg C is low grade heat. I suppose that the term "low grade" will depend upon on context, but in power engineering, I am under the impression that one does not even approach what can be called high grade heat until the lower limits of hydrocarbon combustion, around 500 deg C. This is a term of art of course, but where did you get the notion that 300 deg C is high grade? >I do not know of any reason to think that pressurized water or gas loaded CF cells cannot work well at these temperatures. Certainly, gas loaded cells can be operated at temperatures that will drive a small turbine. In fact, before Mills switched his cells to direct electrical conversion, he had a demo cell that used a Capstone Turbine, and I believe he was in negotaitions with them for mass production. As for pressurized water ever getting up to 500 deg C, I think it would create so much unwanted water-splitting electrolysis that the constant threat of explosion would be unacceptable. Even 300 C. would be very risky, remember SRI. As someone has previouly reported (maybe it was you, or maybe it was on another forum) almost all so-called nuclear reactor problems, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, etc. are not the result of runaway chain reactions (that comes much later) but are attributable to hydrogen buildup from electrolysis/ radiolysis and a subsequent explosion of the volatile hydrogen. You just can't take that chance in an automobile. > Perhaps a glow discharge CF reaction might drive one. Yes! I indeed hope that you will use your influence to point CF researchers who may have been tied to wet CF in that direction. Glow discharge is a very flexible concept with many possibilities, and the best part it that it may be amenable to very high efficiency direct conversion techniques. My take on the most efficient parameter for this technique are a voltage of 500-600 volts. What CF needs now, more than any other single thing IMHO is a stand alone self-powered unit. The fact that it hasn't happened, despite hearning report COPs that are way up there, is indicative of the lack of an adequate energy conversion strategy. Regards, Jones Beene P.S. There was one high efficiency wet CF proposal that was bantered around in the early 90s but I haven't heard anything about it in a long time. It involved using a CF cell that was specifically designed for the purpose of both the CF reaction and water-splitting electroysis at the same time with the gases being segregated in situ and routed to a fuel cell for conversion. This has definite appeal but I suspect that it is ultimately the diffulculty of the segregation of the H2 and O2 in the cell that is the problem. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 11:22:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA04342; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:21:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:21:53 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:30:17 -0700 (PDT) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: <92oiqt8pl0ejg8oqqj64r5ocmm8hbj4htl 4ax.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"apDvt3.0.e31.0FZgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin A Hg arc has lines (in Angstroms) 4358 Blue 4916 Blue 4969 Blue Green 5461 Green 5770 Yellow 5791 Yellow 6234 Orange 6907 Red The filter I used separated the Green line at 5461 Angstroms. The frequency corresponding to it is c/lamda = 3x10^8/.5461x10-6 or 5.49x10^14 Hertz. The bandwidth at most was between the Yellow and Blue lines, and would be 0.83x10^14 Hz. It probably was about a quarter of this say 2x10^13 Hz which is quite wide. If the filter was rung by an impulse, it would ring for about 27 wavelengths. The coherence is much longer then this. The model of a Hg arc photon I use is a gaussian pulse envelope sinewave with a duration of about 10-9 seconds, and a center frequency of 5.49x10^14 Hz, which has a length of c * t = 3x10^8 * 10^-9 = 0.3 meters or 30 cm. This would be the "length" of a photon, in the direction of travel. The "width" would be limited by the optical stops of the system, if the light is emitted radially by the Hg atom. (Ultimately by the pupil of your eye, if the eye is the detector.) Hank On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to hank scudder's message of Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:26:37 -0700: > > >Robin > > What you say would be true if the width of the filter was very > >small, but it wasn't. All it did was separate out the green line from the > >blue ones, and orange and lower. > > > >Hank > > Well, I said I was no expert, but perhaps you could explain what the > width of the filter has to do with colour separation (as I was also > referring to the latter). > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > >> In reply to hank scudder's message of Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:48:53 -0700: > >> > >> >John > >> > I used a Michaelson interferometer with a mercury vapor lamp with > >> >a green filter that was quite sharp, so only the green line came > >> >through. This was in Advanced Physics lab in college. The adjustable > >> >mirror was set up so that it was meter steps away from the detector. At > >> >some distance the interference fringes disappear, which means that > >> >separate photons are hitting the detector-in this case my eye, and they > >> >did not overlap the portion of the light travelling the standard path. You > >> >could do something similar, or you could use "white light" from a light > >> >bulb as a source, and move the adjustable mirror only a little bit to lose > >> >the fringes. However it is quite hard to setup as the two path lenghts > >> >have to be exactly equal to see the white light fringes in the first > >> >place. The green light is much easier to set up. > >> > >> I'm far from an expert here, but my gut reaction says that the distance > >> you are talking about here is determined by the sharpness of the filter. > >> I.e. the sharper the filter, the greater the distance. Using a laser > >> would result in much larger distances. IOW it depends on the mix of > >> frequencies present in the light, as much as the actual degree of > >> coherence (phase agreement) of the individual photons. > >> > >> More to the point perhaps, I don't see what coherence has to do with > >> "photon length". Side note, if Mills is correct, then photons are > >> spherical, and I think the wavelength equals the circumference. > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Robin van Spaandonk > >> > >> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > >> > >> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! > >> > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 11:46:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15809; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:45:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:45:18 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:53:03 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: hank scudder cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"uBXTQ1.0.xs3.zaZgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Hank and all, I think we don't yet have a good picture of a photon..... Below see several different ideas about this........ What is a photon? Well, science at present has a number of words of description, but perhaps no clear definition. ** I believe the word "photon" was coined by the chemist, Lewis, about 1925-27 This was 20 years after Planck's hypothesis (1905) that the energy of the electromagnetic pulse we call light came in "bundles" proportional to its frequency, E = hf. This assumption was needed in order to deduce the black (hot) body radiation distribution formula, which he had guessed in 1900. ** By assuming the "BB's" of electomagnetic radiation (needle radiation) could interact with electrons in metals to eject electrons, and the interaction was like a billiard ball collision, Einstein wrote in 1905 his explanation of the photoelectric effect. The data indicated that the maximum energy of the electrons emitted was proportional to the frequency of the incident radiation, and not to the intensity (brightness). The measured proportionality constant was the Planck constant! Voila. E = hf. * About 1910, Rutherford did his experiments on alpha particle scattering on ---------- * About 1910, Rutherford did his experiments on alpha particle scattering on gold, and came to the conclusion that the atom consisted of a dense nucleus, surrounded by mostly void, but containing "electrons" to balance the nuclear positive charge. (The details of the electron were just being measured) * The next event (1913) was Bohr, who in effect said that the H atom was a miniature solar system, but that the mvr angular momentum would only be permitted if it came in units of the Planck constant (which has the physical dimensions of mvr). With this assumption the energy levels permitted agreed with the Hydrogen spectra emitted by hot hydrogen atoms to 5 decimal places. Incredible!!! Bohr used the assumption that the emitted radiation had an energy E = hf equal to the difference between the energy levels permitted by the constraints of integer multiples of Planck's constant, and that the atom in higher energy levels de-excited to lower energy levels by emitting bursts of radiation. THe deterministic details of how the radiation was emitted were NOT described by Bohr, and still have NOT been described -except in a more or less wishy - washy statistical sense. * -------- * A few years later, Compton described the results of his "gamma" ray (high energy photon) - electron scattering experiments, by showing that the data had a cursory explanation in terms of the "particle" properties of the electromagnetic energy bundles, by considering the collision to be between two "relativistic" particles, the electro magnetic BB and the electron. Note that the data showed scattering distributions that had peaks at the positions indicated by the relativistic billiard ball analysis. It was the peaks that were analyzed, not the distributions. * About this time or a bit after, deBroglie said lets consider the electromagnetic BB to energy E = hf and momentum p = h/wavelength. His thesis was not accepted for a long time, until Einstein read it and told the faculty to grant the PhD to deBroglie. ** Then P. Debye had a post doc come to Switzerland, and he told the post doc to see if somehow he could make sense out of the deBroglie relations. In those days post docs had to present a seminar in front of the whole falculty. see if somehow he could make sense out of the deBroglie relations. In those days post docs had to present a seminar in front of the whole falculty. Debye told me that the first attempt by the post doc was so bad that he, Debye, could not let him appear in front of the faculty. He said go back and rework your presentation. After a few weeks, the post doc came back to give his seminar. The post doc was Erwin Schroedinger. * Note that all of this was before or about the time Lewis coined the word photon. * SO now we have the concept of a photon as a burst of electromagnetic radiation, which has particle like properties of energy and momentum, related to wave-like properties of frequency and wavelength. * One model is to consider the photon to be a burst (for simplicity allmost a square pulse) of electromagnetic energy containing a carrier frequency f. The process of atomic de-excitation starts at t1 and turns off at t2. The radiation is of frequency f and a wavelength c/f. In this model, the size of the photon is the size of the square pulse, not the size of 1 wavelength. PINE 3.96 MESSAGE TEXT Folder: INBOX Message 874 of 918 98% radiation is of frequency f and a wavelength c/f. In this model, the size of the photon is the size of the square pulse, not the size of 1 wavelength. That is the perception of the longitudinal size of the photon that defines the longitudinal coherence length and is about 3 meters long for typical hot atom decays. THat is the property that is measured by overlapping fringes. * Note that the transverse dimension is not stated. In fact, measurements - performed at different positions on earth - of photons coming from distant stars shows a transverse coherence dimension which is at least the size of the earth's diameter. * -------- More as I find it..... On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, hank scudder wrote: > John > The length of a photon is the duration of it Times the speed of > light. > A good measure of it is the decorrelation length. Generally about > 10 nanoseconds duration, so about 10x10-8sec times 3x10+8 m/sec or 30 m > long for an ordinary light source such as a mercury arc green line. Lasers > can have much more coherence, so they have much longer photons. That's not the length of a photon, that's the length of the wave emitted by an undisturbed atom. If an atom is knocked about as it fluoresces, the emitted wave will have random jumps in its phase, and one part of the wave will not be in phase-coherence with other parts. If you could hold an atom in a trap and force it to fluoresce, the length of a "pure" wave with no jumps in phase would be even longer, but the photons would still have the same size: zero. On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, hank scudder wrote: > Robin > A Hg arc has lines (in Angstroms) > 4358 Blue > 4916 Blue > 4969 Blue Green > 5461 Green > 5770 Yellow > 5791 Yellow > 6234 Orange > 6907 Red > > The filter I used separated the Green line at 5461 Angstroms. The > frequency corresponding to it is c/lamda = 3x10^8/.5461x10-6 or > 5.49x10^14 Hertz. The bandwidth at most was between the Yellow and Blue > lines, and would be 0.83x10^14 Hz. It probably was about a quarter of > this say 2x10^13 Hz which is quite wide. If the filter was rung by an > impulse, it would ring for about 27 wavelengths. The coherence is much > longer then this. > The model of a Hg arc photon I use is a gaussian pulse envelope > sinewave with a duration of about 10-9 seconds, and a center frequency of > 5.49x10^14 Hz, which has a length of c * t = 3x10^8 * 10^-9 = 0.3 meters > or 30 cm. This would be the "length" of a photon, in the direction of > travel. The "width" would be limited by the optical stops of the system, > if the light is emitted radially by the Hg atom. (Ultimately by the pupil > of your eye, if the eye is the detector.) > > Hank > > > > > > > On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > In reply to hank scudder's message of Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:26:37 -0700: > > > > >Robin > > > What you say would be true if the width of the filter was very > > >small, but it wasn't. All it did was separate out the green line from the > > >blue ones, and orange and lower. > > > > > >Hank > > > > Well, I said I was no expert, but perhaps you could explain what the > > width of the filter has to do with colour separation (as I was also > > referring to the latter). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > > > >> In reply to hank scudder's message of Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:48:53 -0700: > > >> > > >> >John > > >> > I used a Michaelson interferometer with a mercury vapor lamp with > > >> >a green filter that was quite sharp, so only the green line came > > >> >through. This was in Advanced Physics lab in college. The adjustable > > >> >mirror was set up so that it was meter steps away from the detector. At > > >> >some distance the interference fringes disappear, which means that > > >> >separate photons are hitting the detector-in this case my eye, and they > > >> >did not overlap the portion of the light travelling the standard path. You > > >> >could do something similar, or you could use "white light" from a light > > >> >bulb as a source, and move the adjustable mirror only a little bit to lose > > >> >the fringes. However it is quite hard to setup as the two path lenghts > > >> >have to be exactly equal to see the white light fringes in the first > > >> >place. The green light is much easier to set up. > > >> > > >> I'm far from an expert here, but my gut reaction says that the distance > > >> you are talking about here is determined by the sharpness of the filter. > > >> I.e. the sharper the filter, the greater the distance. Using a laser > > >> would result in much larger distances. IOW it depends on the mix of > > >> frequencies present in the light, as much as the actual degree of > > >> coherence (phase agreement) of the individual photons. > > >> > > >> More to the point perhaps, I don't see what coherence has to do with > > >> "photon length". Side note, if Mills is correct, then photons are > > >> spherical, and I think the wavelength equals the circumference. > > >> > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> > > >> Robin van Spaandonk > > >> > > >> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > >> > > >> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! > > >> > > > > Regards, > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 12:08:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25282; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:07:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:07:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3BAA3E86.D68938A8 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:07:50 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fK3z1.0.xA6.-vZgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A hank scudder wrote: > > The model of a Hg arc photon I use is a gaussian pulse envelope > sinewave with a duration of about 10-9 seconds, and a center frequency of > 5.49x10^14 Hz, which has a length of c * t = 3x10^8 * 10^-9 = 0.3 meters > or 30 cm. This would be the "length" of a photon, in the direction of > travel. The "width" would be limited by the optical stops of the system, > if the light is emitted radially by the Hg atom. (Ultimately by the pupil > of your eye, if the eye is the detector.) > > Hank > Hank, is 10^-9 seconds isn't too long for electron on Hg atom drop from an exited state to lower state? Doesn't this way photons are emitted? Classically electromagnetic wave should be generated by vibration of the electron, so in the duration of photon emission this vibration must continue. If amplitude of the E and B is known, energy (Ec) of one cycle of the wave can be calculated and dividing Total energy of the photon (E=hf, f=frequency, h=Planck's constant) by Ec gives the number of cycles, and this gives the length of the photon. hamdi From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 12:55:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17521; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:54:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:54:45 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920154534.03b14e88 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:54:53 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Update on hydrino confirmation In-Reply-To: References: <002601c141ce$f7ca8e40$aa69fea9 cpq> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"GWVJJ3.0.FH4.3cagx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >experiment. First, we need a dewar. A really big dewar. >Big enough to fit, say....Mitchell Jones. Now we feed >Mitch McDonalds hamburgers (not very healthy but very >well defined caloric quantity) . . . LOL! Why not go for direct electrical output, as shown in the SF movie "The Matrix"? Actually, there are Seebeck calorimeter designed to hold adult human beings. One of the early successful CF experiments, by Richard Oriani, was done with a Seebeck designed to hold a baby. One of the first calorimeters in history was made 1787 by Lavoisier and Laplace to measure the metabolism of a guinea pig, by measuring the amount of ice melted in 10 hours, 36 minutes. The animal was placed in a small cotton-lined basket and given air with a bellows several times "to save it from suffering during the experiment." The animal "did not seem to have suffered." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 12:55:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17376; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:54:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:54:34 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920153259.03ac6778 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:44:56 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF In-Reply-To: <008701c141fc$bffbd180$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"JaV9r.0.GF4.sbagx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > Why not use a conventional small steam turbine, or thermoelectric (TE) > devices? > >Because the low grade heat from a wet CF cell is insufficient for these >conversion devices. A small steam turbine has less Carnot efficiency than >a sterling engine and efficient TE devices require higher temps than wet >CF, as well. Steam turbines work fine at 250 to 300 deg C. That is the temperature of the pressurized water at a fission power plant. Combustion plant water temperatures are higher. >As for pressurized water ever getting up to 500 deg C, I think it would >create so much unwanted water-splitting electrolysis that the constant >threat of explosion would be unacceptable. Even 300 C. would be very >risky, remember SRI. The SRI accident was caused by failures of the recombiner and the safety valve. It had nothing to do with high temperature, and in fact the cell was at room temperature. Low temperatures caused the recombiner to fail. >As someone has previouly reported (maybe it was you, or maybe it was on >another forum) almost all so-called nuclear reactor problems, Three Mile >Island, Chernobyl, etc. are not the result of runaway chain reactions >(that comes much later) but are attributable to hydrogen buildup from >electrolysis/ radiolysis and a subsequent explosion of the volatile hydrogen. None of the nuclear power plant accidents I have read about had anything to do with hydrogen explosions. TMI was caused by a faulty valve. There were some small H explosions on the second day at TMI, but that was incompetence. There should not have been any. They are easy to prevent. > You just can't take that chance in an automobile. CF cannot be commercialized unless it is first understood and controlled. In any case, the risk could hardly be greater than the risks of using gasoline. Cars are bombs on wheels. > > Perhaps a glow discharge CF reaction might drive one. > >Yes! I indeed hope that you will use your influence to point CF >researchers who may have been tied to wet CF in that direction. You could not begin to use glow discharge for any practical purpose today. I suppose it would take millions, or hundreds of millions, to develop it into a practical motor or heater. >What CF needs now, more than any other single thing IMHO is a stand alone >self-powered unit. That's obvious, but alas, no one knows how to make such a thing. > The fact that it hasn't happened, despite hearning report COPs that are > way up there, is indicative of the lack of an adequate energy conversion > strategy. The problems have nothing to do with conversion strategies. If researchers could produce consistent heat at a high input to output ratio, or heat after death, conversion would a trivial problem. A mere afterthought. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 13:01:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20716; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:00:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:00:25 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920155528.03adb928 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:00:50 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF In-Reply-To: <1001005650.webexpressdV2.1.3 jason.u.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Mok142.0.Z35.Ohagx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: slajoie u.washington.edu wrote: >One problem is that the higher the operating temperature of the >metal hydride, the higher the pressure you have to have to maintain >loading of the metal. It is not a linear effect, either. That's true, but people have observed wet CF and heat after death in cathodes up to around 200 deg C, anyway. I suppose they might degas at higher temperatures. 200 should be hot enough for a conventional steam turbine, I think, albeit a bulky, inefficient one. It would be fine for cars or railroad locomotives. Gas loading might not work about ~250 or 300 deg C either, for all I know. If there are such temperature limitations, CF cannot be used for airplane or rocket engines, I guess. That would be a pity. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 13:18:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA30659; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:16:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:16:45 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:25:02 -0700 (PDT) From: hank scudder To: John Schnurer cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Ha2km2.0.zU7.iwagx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John We seem to be in agreement, except for the shape of the envelope. One other factor here, the amplitude of the E-field (or B-field) which is oscillating at the center frequency, is proportional to the square root of the frequency times the pulse duration. This is because the energy E=h*f where h is planck's constant, and the power of an EM wave is proportional to the square of the Electric field. Feynmann wrote a famous paper about this, leading into his work on QED. Hank On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, John Schnurer wrote: > > > > Dear Hank and all, > > > I think we don't yet have a good picture of a photon..... > > Below see several different ideas about this........ > > > > What is a photon? > Well, science at present has a number of words of description, but perhaps > no > clear definition. > ** > I believe the word "photon" was coined by the chemist, Lewis, about > 1925-27 > This was 20 years after Planck's hypothesis (1905) that the energy of the > electromagnetic pulse we call light came in "bundles" proportional to its > frequency, E = hf. This assumption was needed in order to deduce the > black > (hot) body radiation distribution formula, which he had guessed in 1900. > ** > By assuming the "BB's" of electomagnetic radiation (needle radiation) > could > interact with electrons in metals to eject electrons, and the interaction > was > like a billiard ball collision, Einstein wrote in 1905 his explanation of > the > photoelectric effect. The data indicated that the maximum energy of the > electrons emitted was proportional to the frequency of the incident > radiation, and not to the intensity (brightness). The measured > proportionality constant was the Planck constant! Voila. E = hf. > * > About 1910, Rutherford did his experiments on alpha particle scattering on > ---------- > * > About 1910, Rutherford did his experiments on alpha particle scattering on > gold, and came to the conclusion that the atom consisted of a dense > nucleus, > surrounded by mostly void, but containing "electrons" to balance the > nuclear > positive charge. (The details of the electron were just being measured) > * > The next event (1913) was Bohr, who in effect said that the H atom was a > miniature solar system, but that the mvr angular momentum would only be > permitted if it came in units of the Planck constant (which has the > physical > dimensions of mvr). With this assumption the energy levels permitted > agreed > with the Hydrogen spectra emitted by hot hydrogen atoms to 5 decimal > places. > Incredible!!! Bohr used the assumption that the emitted radiation had an > energy E = hf equal to the difference between the energy levels permitted > by > the constraints of integer multiples of Planck's constant, and that the > atom > in higher energy levels de-excited to lower energy levels by emitting > bursts > of radiation. THe deterministic details of how the radiation was emitted > were NOT described by Bohr, and still have NOT been described -except in a > more or less wishy - washy statistical sense. > * > -------- > * > A few years later, Compton described the results of his "gamma" > ray (high > energy photon) - electron scattering experiments, by showing that > the data > had a cursory explanation in terms of the "particle" properties of > the > electromagnetic energy bundles, by considering the collision to be > between > two "relativistic" particles, the electro magnetic BB and the > electron. Note > that the data showed scattering distributions that had peaks at > the positions > indicated by the relativistic billiard ball analysis. It was the > peaks that > were analyzed, not the distributions. > * > About this time or a bit after, deBroglie said lets consider the > electromagnetic BB to energy E = hf and momentum p = h/wavelength. > His thesis was not accepted for a long time, until Einstein read > it and told > the faculty to grant the PhD to deBroglie. > ** > Then P. Debye had a post doc come to Switzerland, and he told the > post doc to > see if somehow he could make sense out of the deBroglie relations. > In those > days post docs had to present a seminar in front of the whole > falculty. > see if somehow he could make sense out of the deBroglie relations. > In those > days post docs had to present a seminar in front of the whole > falculty. > Debye told me that the first attempt by the post doc was so bad > that he, > Debye, could not let him appear in front of the faculty. He said > go back and > rework your presentation. After a few weeks, the post doc came > back to give > his seminar. The post doc was Erwin Schroedinger. > * > Note that all of this was before or about the time Lewis coined > the word > photon. > * > SO now we have the concept of a photon as a burst of > electromagnetic > radiation, which has particle like properties of energy and > momentum, related > to wave-like properties of frequency and wavelength. > * > One model is to consider the photon to be a burst (for simplicity > allmost a > square pulse) of electromagnetic energy containing a carrier > frequency f. > The process of atomic de-excitation starts at t1 and turns off at > t2. The > radiation is of frequency f and a wavelength c/f. In this model, > the size of > the photon is the size of the square pulse, not the size of 1 > wavelength. > PINE 3.96 MESSAGE TEXT Folder: INBOX Message 874 of > 918 98% > > radiation is of frequency f and a wavelength c/f. In this model, > the size of > the photon is the size of the square pulse, not the size of 1 > wavelength. > That is the perception of the longitudinal size of the photon that > defines > the longitudinal coherence length and is about 3 meters long for > typical hot > atom decays. THat is the property that is measured by overlapping > fringes. > * > Note that the transverse dimension is not stated. In fact, > measurements - > performed at different positions on earth - of photons coming from > distant > stars shows a transverse coherence dimension which is at least the > size of > the earth's diameter. > * > > > > -------- > > > More as I find it..... > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, hank scudder wrote: > > > John > > The length of a photon is the duration of it Times the speed of > > light. > > A good measure of it is the decorrelation length. Generally about > > 10 nanoseconds duration, so about 10x10-8sec times 3x10+8 m/sec or 30 m > > long for an ordinary light source such as a mercury arc green line. > Lasers > > can have much more coherence, so they have much longer photons. > > That's not the length of a photon, that's the length of the wave emitted > by an undisturbed atom. If an atom is knocked about as it fluoresces, the > emitted wave will have random jumps in its phase, and one part of the wave > will not be in phase-coherence with other parts. If you could hold an > atom in a trap and force it to fluoresce, the length of a "pure" wave with > no jumps in phase would be even longer, but the photons would still have > the same size: zero. > > > > On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, hank scudder wrote: > > > Robin > > A Hg arc has lines (in Angstroms) > > 4358 Blue > > 4916 Blue > > 4969 Blue Green > > 5461 Green > > 5770 Yellow > > 5791 Yellow > > 6234 Orange > > 6907 Red > > > > The filter I used separated the Green line at 5461 Angstroms. The > > frequency corresponding to it is c/lamda = 3x10^8/.5461x10-6 or > > 5.49x10^14 Hertz. The bandwidth at most was between the Yellow and Blue > > lines, and would be 0.83x10^14 Hz. It probably was about a quarter of > > this say 2x10^13 Hz which is quite wide. If the filter was rung by an > > impulse, it would ring for about 27 wavelengths. The coherence is much > > longer then this. > > The model of a Hg arc photon I use is a gaussian pulse envelope > > sinewave with a duration of about 10-9 seconds, and a center frequency of > > 5.49x10^14 Hz, which has a length of c * t = 3x10^8 * 10^-9 = 0.3 meters > > or 30 cm. This would be the "length" of a photon, in the direction of > > travel. The "width" would be limited by the optical stops of the system, > > if the light is emitted radially by the Hg atom. (Ultimately by the pupil > > of your eye, if the eye is the detector.) > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > > > In reply to hank scudder's message of Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:26:37 -0700: > > > > > > >Robin > > > > What you say would be true if the width of the filter was very > > > >small, but it wasn't. All it did was separate out the green line from the > > > >blue ones, and orange and lower. > > > > > > > >Hank > > > > > > Well, I said I was no expert, but perhaps you could explain what the > > > width of the filter has to do with colour separation (as I was also > > > referring to the latter). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > > > > > >> In reply to hank scudder's message of Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:48:53 -0700: > > > >> > > > >> >John > > > >> > I used a Michaelson interferometer with a mercury vapor lamp with > > > >> >a green filter that was quite sharp, so only the green line came > > > >> >through. This was in Advanced Physics lab in college. The adjustable > > > >> >mirror was set up so that it was meter steps away from the detector. At > > > >> >some distance the interference fringes disappear, which means that > > > >> >separate photons are hitting the detector-in this case my eye, and they > > > >> >did not overlap the portion of the light travelling the standard path. You > > > >> >could do something similar, or you could use "white light" from a light > > > >> >bulb as a source, and move the adjustable mirror only a little bit to lose > > > >> >the fringes. However it is quite hard to setup as the two path lenghts > > > >> >have to be exactly equal to see the white light fringes in the first > > > >> >place. The green light is much easier to set up. > > > >> > > > >> I'm far from an expert here, but my gut reaction says that the distance > > > >> you are talking about here is determined by the sharpness of the filter. > > > >> I.e. the sharper the filter, the greater the distance. Using a laser > > > >> would result in much larger distances. IOW it depends on the mix of > > > >> frequencies present in the light, as much as the actual degree of > > > >> coherence (phase agreement) of the individual photons. > > > >> > > > >> More to the point perhaps, I don't see what coherence has to do with > > > >> "photon length". Side note, if Mills is correct, then photons are > > > >> spherical, and I think the wavelength equals the circumference. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Regards, > > > >> > > > >> Robin van Spaandonk > > > >> > > > >> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > > >> > > > >> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! > > > >> > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Robin van Spaandonk > > > > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > > > > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 13:39:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12065; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:38:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:38:38 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:33:33 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <00e601c14213$8606f7e0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920153259.03ac6778 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"0l-Dk1.0.My2.EFbgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > Steam turbines work fine at 250 to 300 deg C. That is the temperature of > the pressurized water at a fission power plant. Combustion plant water > temperatures are higher. Sure steam tubines can work at 300 deg C but only if you ramp up the internal pressure to nearly 1000 psi, and it goes without saying, turbines can never use steam that is filled with an electrolyte. As for an external steam cirucit on a CF device that small at high pressure - ha, forget it. It can never happen. The containment structure alone would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. A BWR uses an enormous pressure of 70 atm. A car in a wreck with that much pressure would be nothing less than a bomb. Fission power plants were designed NOT to use more efficient high temperature steam because of radiolysis and hydrogen formation. Repeat. 300 degree C. heat/ steam is not high quality. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 13:41:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13407; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:40:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:40:59 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Josef Karthauser Subject: Re: Afghanistan Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:50:50 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917104327.03844470 pop.mindspring.com> <01091722443300.01249@tyrannosaur> <20010919122443.K721@tao.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <20010919122443.K721 tao.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01092016505000.01209 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA13349 Resent-Message-ID: <"L4aLt.0.FH3.QHbgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wednesday 19 September 2001 04:24, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:44:33PM -0700, Standing Bear wrote: > > Real education is often just as prone to failure, and a prime > > case if Iraq. Read the history of the British administration > > from the 1920's to 1946 when it became independant (may be > > off a year or two). It took three elections to elect a Mohammed > > Mossadegh that took it all apart--6 years! The British DID > > try to train a responsible government; the people preferred > > demagogues and voted accordingly. No democracy is safe > > if not in the soul of the people. > > What's this story? I'm too young, and under-educated. Are you saying > that the British had administration of Iraq? > > Joe > Joe, Yes, they did. As I understand it, Iraq was part of the old Ottoman Empire that was broken up after the first world war. Since the 'Empire' had been the 'sick man of Europe' for over 50 years, and had been on the losing side in that war, the 'great powers' (England and France which wanted colonies at the time) broke up the empire and distributed the various parts of it: Iran.........England Iraq..........England Syria........France Lebanon......France Jordan........France ?? Palestine (Israel stole this) .........England The fig leaf used to cover these thefts was a 'League of Nations' mandate. The League of Nations was born after WWI to keep the peace............haw haw!. Made independant were: Saudi Arabia Kuwait ..........English let them go in 1920? Hejaz .........no longer exists, was kingdom on western side of Saudi, Saudis conquered it in early 1920's killed many in process. Yemen German colony? England got it Aden German colony? England got it Bahrain ? The division of lands in the middle east was done at the Balfour Conference in 1919? Old Prince Faisal then became the first King of Saudi, promptly claiming an 'Noble and Ancient lineage' (acually he was a tribal Bedouin headman who stole the title through his influence with Lawrence of Arabia, a British agent in the area in the war, and through him the British govt. Faisal and those who followed him forged the rest. Numerous lies and false promises were made at that conference, including a dishonored promise to give Kuwait more land at the expense of Saudi Arabia and Iraq; and another promise to make Kuwait part of Iraq, from which former Turkish province it had been taken in order to better exploit the oil resource there. Making the promise small and relatively defenseless made it dependant on the good will and favor of the British colonial ruler. Having it ruled by another Bedouin 'Sultan' (another ready made 'ancient monarch' with long and bogus 'history') just saved, in British eyes, the cost of a colonial administration. The 'cold war' was the furthest in their minds in 1919. Notably one of the first failures of the League of Nations, and the first forgotten, was the acquiescense of the League in the conquest and brutalization of Hejaz by Saudi Arabia. This slaughter, ignored by the world, was also used by Hitler to rationalize that the world would forget his slaughter, with Soviet complicity, of the Jews. Yes, I believe that some, maybe more than some, of those slaughtered in the 'holocaust' were whacked by the Soviets. It was just easy to blame the nazis after the war; after all, they lost! Who was going to listen to them?! No one listed when the Soviets massacred the Polish officer corps and the nazis found the mass graves and told the world! Yes the British, and the French tried to teach democracy to brutalized, backward, and often totally Moslem (with the exception of Lebanon) countries that had not known democracy since Roman times. They did not touch the existing social order nor tax or penalize the wealthy who had prospered under the Turks and exploited the masses. Those wealthy undermined, actively and covertly, all the efforts of the colonial administrators, both French and British, throughout the period between the wars. When the second war came in1939, Lebanon and Syria became outposts of Vichy French, nazi collaborators. This muddied the mix even more. The Christian minority in Lebanon was quite taken with the Germans and their philosopy, and a 'Falangist' party was started there that survives to this day in the Lebanese government, now as the 'loyal opposition' to the majority Moslem Druze's. Laugh of the day! When the British turned loose of Iraq after the second world war, their main concern was that Iraq, with only 14000 troops in its army, would not be able to defend itself! Standing Bear rockcast net-link.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 13:57:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21838; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:56:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:56:25 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Steve Krivit Subject: Re: Rescue versus Salvage Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:06:03 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <243298764.543478577.4294665009 Butthead.linkline.com> In-Reply-To: <243298764.543478577.4294665009 Butthead.linkline.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01092017060301.01209 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA21782 Resent-Message-ID: <"AEnuR1.0.zK5.uVbgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 16 September 2001 23:14, Steve Krivit wrote: > Hamdi: > > You may have heard of a shift from a "Search and Rescue" operation to a > "Recovery" operation. > There is a point in time in the response to Mass Casualty Incidents where > the odds of finding live bodies become highly unlikley. > Disaster response teams in the US follow procedures which distinguish a > point in time realtive to the objective of finding either a live body or a > dead one. Methods, resources and manpower change according to what they > are expecting to find. Some hope still exists to find live bodies but > generally that is not expected. > > I have been finding www.bbc.co.uk to be, at times, more "inclusive" than > www.cnn.com. > > Steve > > Absolutely right Steve, CNN is downsizing their news content severly, and is editorializing on the rest. It started doing that 2 months ago when it eliminated country by country coverage and cut the size of its main page to that which will print on a single page. Now it generally fills that single page with specious trivia and monopolist propaganda. They have gotten a little better since the tower attack, probably just to satisfy public demand for real news of this and to retain viewership. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 14:04:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25850; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:03:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:03:30 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 13:58:22 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <00f801c14216$fc825c40$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920153259.03ac6778 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"6ht2T.0.nJ6.Wcbgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > None of the nuclear power plant accidents I have read about had anything to > do with hydrogen explosions. All of the major nuclear accidents that have occurred have been at least partially caused by loss of coolant, resulting in hydrogen formation that could possibly, and most often, did recombine. In the accident at Three-Mile Island there was not a massive hydrogen explosion, but there was certainly the fear of it. From the NRC report: "Because adequate cooling was not available, the nuclear fuel overheated to the point where the zirconium cladding reacted with the water and generated hydrogen. This hydrogen was released into the reactor containment building. By March 30, two days after the start of the chain of events, some hydrogen remained within the primary coolant system in the vessel surrounding the reactor, forming a "hydrogen bubble" above the reactor core." "In the Chernobyl accident there was a massive hydrogen explosion. Two explosions occurred at Chernobyl, blowing the roof off of the building and releasing radioactive material to the air. The first explosion was water suddenly flashing to steam, followed by a hydrogen explosion. The Chernobyl-type reactors do not have a containment building." There are many more reports of hydrogen induced nuclear accidents at: http://www.ch2bc.org/ which, even though it is a hydrogen advocacy group, likes but it like to keep the records accurate. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 14:07:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA27322; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:07:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:07:04 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer Subject: Re: Search for local terms, sayings...: (fwd) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:16:43 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01092017164302.01209 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA27244 Resent-Message-ID: <"_speh1.0.dg6.pfbgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tuesday 18 September 2001 16:55, John Schnurer wrote: > I am looking for turns of phrase relating to dunder-headed-ness or > fool sayings.... > > Examples: ---- and American styles of same > > Shallow in the think Tank shallow end of da gene poool > wrapped too tight not too tightly wrapped > one oar in the water don't have both oars in the water > > > Please add any and all you know of. These are going to be used > to show some foreign students examples of loo loos off the port bow of US > language.... > > Lost lock ( as in phase locked loop ) > signal equal to noise level > scrambler switched in no de-scrambler in circuit > > > bubbles in the think tanks > tanks are all foamed up > mental compression of an over ripe tomato > functioning at a high speed crawl > wearing full Heat Shields and searching the freezer > no too tighly wrapped > not playing with a full deck of cards not playin with a full deck > Add, please > dumber than a box of rocks.... .........others > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 14:18:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32563; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:17:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:17:52 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:13:05 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <00fc01c14219$0a621420$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920153259.03ac6778 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"I-7aS.0.iy7._pbgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > You could not begin to use glow discharge for any practical purpose today. > I suppose it would take millions, or hundreds of millions, to develop it > into a practical motor or heater. Huh? Ridiculous! Glow discharge is used in many, many common industrial applications. Every silicon foundry has dozens of these babies - you can even pick one up off of eBay and modify it for CF. And of course, if you have the $$ you can by one tailored to your exact needs. Here's the outfit that makes one that's on my wish list: http://www.roth-rau.de/index2.htm It would certainly be more difficult to pull off than CF electrolysis, but even the well financed lone inventor can do it. Matter of fact, if this lotto ticket turns out to be a winner... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 14:39:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10407; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:38:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:38:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:38:07 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"d6-_c2.0.SY2.37cgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to William Beaty's message of Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:53:44 -0700: > [snip] > >That's not the length of a photon, that's the length of the wave emitted > >by an undisturbed atom. If an atom is knocked about as it fluoresces, the > >emitted wave will have random jumps in its phase, and one part of the wave > >will not be in phase-coherence with other parts. > > This should result in the same atom emitting a single photon that has > two different colours, as part of it is Doppler shifted, relative to the > other part. I think a conventional physicist would say that the photon has a probability of having one or the other frequency. Classical wave descriptions get turned into "photon probability" descriptions. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 14:40:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11950; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:40:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:40:07 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920172827.00aa17c8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:40:27 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF In-Reply-To: <00e601c14213$8606f7e0$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920153259.03ac6778 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"hfi-x1.0.Pw2.q8cgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Sure steam tubines can work at 300 deg C but only if you ramp up the >internal pressure to nearly 1000 psi . . . I am not sure what "internal pressure" refers to here, I do not think the turbines at nuclear power plants are anything special. I have never read that they require special "internal pressure." They are like the ones used at combustion plants, as far as I know. >, and it goes without saying, turbines >can never use steam that is filled with an electrolyte. It would be crazy to use the electrolyte as working fluid for a turbine! That would be like using fission reactor coolant water to drive a turbine. No one ever thought to do this, I am sure. Obviously you need a heat exchanger of some sort. >As for an external steam cirucit on a CF device that small at high >pressure - ha, forget it. It can never happen. The containment structure >alone would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Why should it? We are talking about a 30 KW reactor! It is not large, and the pressure is not high. The containment would be a steel shell no heavier than a conventional ICE engine block. It would be far less dangerous than a gasoline tank. > A BWR uses an enormous pressure of 70 atm. A car in a >wreck with that much pressure would be nothing less than a bomb. 70 atm is not "enormous pressure." In any case, the power is a function of pressure times the mass of the fluid being pressurized. There would be very little fluid, so in the event of an accident, after a little fluid blew off, the pressure would drop to 1 atm. A diamond anvil can produce 250,000 atm pressure, but there is only a tiny amount of fluid, so no danger of a macroscopic explosion when the seal fails. >Repeat. 300 degree C. heat/ steam is not high quality. It is high enough for ordinary steam turbines, as far as I know. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 14:58:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21616; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:58:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:58:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:58:10 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: <3BAA3E86.D68938A8 verisoft.com.tr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Ni2Iq2.0.gH5.sPcgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, hamdi ucar wrote: > Hank, is 10^-9 seconds isn't too long for electron on Hg atom drop from > an exited state to lower state? Doesn't this way photons are emitted? > Classically electromagnetic wave should be generated by vibration of the > electron, so in the duration of photon emission this vibration must > continue. > > If amplitude of the E and B is known, energy (Ec) of one cycle of the > wave can be calculated and dividing Total energy of the photon (E=hf, > f=frequency, h=Planck's constant) by Ec gives the number of cycles, and > this gives the length of the photon. This gives the time duration of a pulse train of light waves, and other sources (cooled lasers) can produce far longer pulse trains. A photon is a tiny particle, not a wave. That's what the whole "wave-particle duality" thing is about! For example, light from distant stars has spatial coherence of hundreds of miles, yet the temporal coherence is about one wavelength. Should we therefore say that the photons are hundreds of miles wide yet very thin, like immense pancakes? Yet single atoms absorb single photons, so photons are tiny. This is controversial in the same way that "wave/particle duality" is controversial. If you are a Copenhagenist, then when the photon gets absorbed, the entire gigantic "pancake" of light waves instantly vanishes. If you are Feynman, you'd say that the gigantic wave was made of virtual particles, and their sum over different paths determines where the "real" particle hits. Or if you're a many-worlder, you'd say that the universe splits into many copies which can interfere with each other, but when the photon hits something, you're stuck in that particular universe. This big-wave Trying to say that particles are gigantic is the same as trying to sweep all aspects of Quantum Mechanics controversy under the carpet. E.g., when two entangled photons affect each other over many light years distance, it is the LIGHT WAVES which are many light years in size, not the photons. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 15:00:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA22012; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:58:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:58:51 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:06:40 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Standing Bear cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Search for local terms, sayings...: (fwd) In-Reply-To: <01092017164302.01209 tyrannosaur> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"HnlfR1.0.rN5.QQcgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thank you On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Standing Bear wrote: > On Tuesday 18 September 2001 16:55, John Schnurer wrote: > > I am looking for turns of phrase relating to dunder-headed-ness or > > fool sayings.... > > > > Examples: ---- and American styles of same > > > > Shallow in the think Tank > shallow end of da gene poool > > wrapped too tight > not too tightly wrapped > > one oar in the water > don't have both oars in the water > > > > > > Please add any and all you know of. These are going to be used > > to show some foreign students examples of loo loos off the port bow of US > > language.... > > > > Lost lock ( as in phase locked loop ) > > signal equal to noise level > > scrambler switched in no de-scrambler in circuit > > > > > > bubbles in the think tanks > > tanks are all foamed up > > mental compression of an over ripe tomato > > functioning at a high speed crawl > > wearing full Heat Shields and searching the freezer > > no too tighly wrapped > > not playing with a full deck of cards > not playin with a full deck > > > > Add, please > > > dumber than a box of rocks.... > .........others > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 15:18:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07640; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:23:16 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Standing Bear cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, Schnurer , joher44 netscape.net Subject: Positive Expressions, Search for terms of thanks, love, peace, In-Reply-To: <01092017164302.01209 tyrannosaur> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Po8vg2.0.Bt1.ngcgx" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo, Please and thank you.... AND... if you can see your way to plant the search on other discussion groups and send the results to me off line, or share them with the group, if Bill Beatty gives to "Ho OK ! " Looking for positive terms: Candles burning in the cathedral of the mind Walks like a blade of Grass She-He makes me feel as though I just came home. Wind at your back, sun on the Sea, Calm waters A votre sante, a bon temps et a bon chance Also Looking for: Expressions for: Thank You and you are Welcome and I love you and Be at Peace and To wish good luck or good fortune or good times Thanks, JH From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 15:26:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA03058; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:24:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:24:27 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:19:16 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <015001c14222$490d1540$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920153259.03ac6778 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920172827.00aa17c8 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"aA-0g2.0.el.Pocgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > >As for an external steam cirucit on a CF device that small at high > >pressure - ha, forget it. It can never happen. The containment structure > >alone would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. > Why should it? We are talking about a 30 KW reactor! It is not large Doesn't matter much. Size of the reator is far less impotant than the pressure it must contain. You would have to use nearly as many tons of "pressure tube grade" steel for a small 30 kW, 70 atm reactor/ steam generator as for one double that size. The thing scales up by a cubic relationship, so there are great benefits to going big. This is why you always see 1000 megawatt reactors instead of 10 smaller 100 megawatters. Makes a lot more sense to use the lower efficiency, but far safer and lighter Capstone turbine operating at a few atm and 500 degrees C, but then you must go to gas or plasma CF. > > A BWR uses an enormous pressure of 70 atm. A car in a > > wreck with that much pressure would be nothing less than a bomb. > 70 atm is not "enormous pressure." What? 70 atm can cause local acceleration of many times the speed of sound. It is not only enormous, it could probably be classified as small artillery under the right circumstances. > In any case, the power is a function of pressure times the mass of the fluid > being pressurized. There would be very little fluid, so in the event of an > accident, after a little fluid blew off, the pressure would drop to 1 atm. That's like saying that there is very little mass in a .45 caliber round so after it fires, all is well. Maybe so, if you didn't happen to be in the line of fire. A few pounds of steam at 70 atm could be equivalent to an average howitzer round in terms of accelerating a few pounds of metal to Mach 1 and beyond. Why are you so fixated on steam? Millions were spent trying to revive the technolgy a couple of decades ago and it just isn't suitable for automobiles. Think about it - we don't even use steam in trains any more. And in places were they do, many engineers have reduced life spans. And nobody wants gigantic radiators on their car... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 16:54:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA08485; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:53:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:53:37 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:53:11 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5pvkqtsk6teqgsmto5onif2tbf010583du 4ax.com> References: <92oiqt8pl0ejg8oqqj64r5ocmm8hbj4htl 4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA08421 Resent-Message-ID: <"aIjCg1.0.P42._5egx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to hank scudder's message of Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:30:17 -0700: Ah, now I see. In your previous post, you were referring to spectral width, not physical width :). [snip] >this say 2x10^13 Hz which is quite wide. If the filter was rung by an >impulse, it would ring for about 27 wavelengths. The coherence is much >longer then this. Why should coherence be an indication of the length of a photon? IOW why can't coherence also be achieved by multiple photons being in phase with one another, but not necessarily beginning or ending at the same time. E.g. the 40th node of one photon arrives at the same time as the first node of another. > The model of a Hg arc photon I use is a gaussian pulse envelope >sinewave with a duration of about 10-9 seconds, and a center frequency of >5.49x10^14 Hz, which has a length of c * t = 3x10^8 * 10^-9 = 0.3 meters >or 30 cm. This would be the "length" of a photon, in the direction of >travel. The "width" would be limited by the optical stops of the system, >if the light is emitted radially by the Hg atom. (Ultimately by the pupil >of your eye, if the eye is the detector.) [snip] How do you know your Gaussian envelope encompasses only one photon, and not billions of them, starting and ending with only a few, and with most in the middle? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 16:58:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA10146; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:57:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:57:46 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 00:58:01 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Afghanistan Message-ID: <20010921005801.H66555 tao.org.uk> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010917104327.03844470 pop.mindspring.com> <01091722443300.01249@tyrannosaur> <20010919122443.K721@tao.org.uk> <01092016505000.01209@tyrannosaur> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="W/D3X8sky0X3AmG5" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01092016505000.01209 tyrannosaur>; from rockcast@net-link.net on Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 04:50:50PM -0700 Resent-Message-ID: <"vW1YH2.0.LU2.v9egx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --W/D3X8sky0X3AmG5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 04:50:50PM -0700, Standing Bear wrote: > >=20 > > What's this story? I'm too young, and under-educated. Are=20 > you saying > > that the British had administration of Iraq? > >=20 > > Joe > >=20 > Joe, > Yes, they did. As I understand it, [cut] Thanks Standing Bear. I wasn't aware of that. Regards Joe --W/D3X8sky0X3AmG5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjuqgogACgkQXVIcjOaxUBazLgCfdt9yrSXj+81cDrbAQjLp0nDI f8UAn0TaBCVb+ZbQ7GwjAcQG7PcEX+ts =nV/c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --W/D3X8sky0X3AmG5-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 19:25:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA18635; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:24:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:24:44 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:24:21 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3BAA3E86.D68938A8 verisoft.com.tr> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA18516 Resent-Message-ID: <"QTw0K3.0.sY4.gJggx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to William Beaty's message of Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:58:10 -0700: [snip] >Trying to say that particles are gigantic is the same as trying to sweep >all aspects of Quantum Mechanics controversy under the carpet. E.g., when >two entangled photons affect each other over many light years distance, >it is the LIGHT WAVES which are many light years in size, not the >photons. [snip] Are you implying that the light wave is the probability wave that guides the photon (Bohmian description?)? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 19:37:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA24894; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:36:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:36:08 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:35:22 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA24863 Resent-Message-ID: <"zn-Ny.0.u46.NUggx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A In reply to William Beaty's message of Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:38:07 -0700: [snip] >> This should result in the same atom emitting a single photon that has >> two different colours, as part of it is Doppler shifted, relative to the >> other part. > >I think a conventional physicist would say that the photon has a >probability of having one or the other frequency. Classical wave >descriptions get turned into "photon probability" descriptions. [snip] How does an atom go about changing the frequency of light already emitted? ..And if it doesn't, then how does it know in advance that it is going to be hit? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 20:10:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA06897; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:08:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:08:50 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:08:05 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7lblqt8unbldr1u9n8p4846j6aj9agn91k 4ax.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920153259.03ac6778@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920172827.00aa17c8@pop.mindspring.com> <015001c14222$490d1540$aa69fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <015001c14222$490d1540$aa69fea9 cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA06698 Resent-Message-ID: <"-V71w2.0.Rh1.0zggx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:19:16 -0700: [snip] >> 70 atm is not "enormous pressure." > >What? 70 atm can cause local acceleration of many times the speed of sound. >It is not only enormous, it could probably be classified as small artillery >under the right circumstances. What is the pressure of LPG or CNG tanks used in cars? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 20:26:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA13085; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:25:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:25:15 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Robin van Spaandonk Subject: Re: size of photon Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:35:11 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <3BAA3E86.D68938A8 verisoft.com.tr> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01092023351100.01208 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA13052 Resent-Message-ID: <"EEuDi3.0.MC3.QChgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thursday 20 September 2001 19:24, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to William Beaty's message of Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:58:10 -0700: > [snip] > >Trying to say that particles are gigantic is the same as trying to sweep > >all aspects of Quantum Mechanics controversy under the carpet. E.g., when > >two entangled photons affect each other over many light years distance, > >it is the LIGHT WAVES which are many light years in size, not the > >photons. > [snip] > Are you implying that the light wave is the probability wave that guides > the photon (Bohmian description?)? > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! > > > Here we go again tryin to kill Herr Schroedinger's felis domesticuss again...........or is it Mr Dirac's cat?....or Mr Fermi's. As I remember from my days at university, the Fermi-Dirac version of the Schroedinger wave function was kind of uncertain as to just where the photon was in the first place, not to mention takin a ruler to it. Grins Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 20:49:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA22704; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:48:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:48:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:48:08 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3HPeS2.0.fY5.wXhgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to William Beaty's message of Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:38:07 -0700: > [snip] > >> This should result in the same atom emitting a single photon that has > >> two different colours, as part of it is Doppler shifted, relative to the > >> other part. > > > >I think a conventional physicist would say that the photon has a > >probability of having one or the other frequency. Classical wave > >descriptions get turned into "photon probability" descriptions. > [snip] > > How does an atom go about changing the frequency of light already > emitted? I don't think it does. Instead, the position of the atom is wave-like, and the particular instant of the collision is spread out in time. It's just another version of the double-slit experiment: the atom collides at a bunch of different times simultaneously, and you describe this with probability functions, but when you finally detect the light, you only measure one or the other frequency (before or after collision.) But that's the old QM interpretation. I hear that the math is identical for "many worlds" and for QED and for that time-reversed "Transactional QM", even though their explanations of what is happening are very different. I like the "transactional" theory, where a photon hits many widely separated atoms, but then each one sends an anti-wave backwards in time to the original light source, and the waves cancel in such a way as to let only one distant atom swallow the photon. It's just another way to explain "collapse of the wavefunction", or splitting of the universe, or whatever. The book "Schrodinger's Kittens" mentions that hidden-variables theories of QM were totally disproved many decades ago, but the disproof was wrong, and nobody bothered to question it or even to check it since it came from a big-name researcher. Physicists still ignore the Bohm stuff because it is a hidden-variables theory, and the word about the mistake hasn't diffused fully through the phyics community yet. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 20 21:03:56 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA28056; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:02:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:02:51 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:02:16 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2telqt474jsd0961gu0cl78eqc3iv6bvs2 4ax.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> <008701c141fc$bffbd180$aa69fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <008701c141fc$bffbd180$aa69fea9 cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA27755 Resent-Message-ID: <"izHX93.0.Es6.glhgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:50:34 -0700: [snip] >P.S. There was one high efficiency wet CF proposal that was bantered around >in the early 90s but I haven't heard anything about it in a long time. It >involved using a CF cell that was specifically designed for the purpose of >both the CF reaction and water-splitting electroysis at the same time with >the gases being segregated in situ and routed to a fuel cell for conversion. >This has definite appeal but I suspect that it is ultimately the diffulculty >of the segregation of the H2 and O2 in the cell that is the problem. [snip] Why bother? Just add air and burn in an IC engine. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 00:49:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA00559; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 00:48:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 00:48:07 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: size of photon Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:47:38 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <60slqt4naibcoqbe5iacsjo1l5i2jfogik 4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA00438 Resent-Message-ID: <"PAyQ52.0.Y8.s2lgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to William Beaty's message of Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:48:08 -0700: [snip] >I like the "transactional" theory, where a photon hits many widely >separated atoms, but then each one sends an anti-wave backwards in time to >the original light source, and the waves cancel in such a way as to let >only one distant atom swallow the photon. It's just another way to >explain "collapse of the wavefunction", or splitting of the universe, or >whatever. [snip] Personally I think I prefer the notion that the absorption of the photon is communicated instantaneously to the whole universe (no reverse time needed). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 01:00:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA03654; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 01:00:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 01:00:26 -0700 Message-ID: <000501c14274$30041ce0$2e8f209a ggrf30j> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <3BA986C6.132DECFC ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: [RealityShifters] SPECIAL ALERT FROM Sixth Sense Support Group] Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:12:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"yugFU3.0.0v.QElgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John In my 17,500 days on this planet I can remember having at least three large planes crashing type dreams (and two nuclear explosions). That's one plane dream every 5,700 days. None of them were closely associated in time with any real crash I ever heard of. If my dream life is average, that means that in any group of 5,700 people, one of them will have had a crash dream the night before any such disaster. If we allow ourselves a weeks precognition, that goes down to one in 800 people. That means that of the 50,000 who worked in the WTC, 60 will have had such dreams. In NY itself (I don't know the population - 3 million?) maybe 4000 had a "psychic" warning. I don't want to disparage precognition, just pointing out some numbers... Nick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 05:26:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA02098; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 05:22:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 05:22:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 05:17:16 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <000901c14297$5adccfc0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> <008701c141fc$bffbd180$aa69fea9 cpq> <2telqt474jsd0961gu0cl78eqc3iv6bvs2 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"Ddf7J2.0.eW.T4pgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > >...a CF cell that was specifically designed for the purpose of > >both the CF reaction and water-splitting electroysis at the same time with > >the gases being segregated in situ and routed to a fuel cell for conversion. > Why bother? Just add air and burn in an IC engine. This is deuterium we are talking about. The heavy water must be collected from the fuel cell and recycled. Although deuterium is potentially cheap on the unregulated world market, and supposedly non-toxic, I don't think too many folks would like it spewing out everywhere in the exhaust of vehicles. Plus fuel cells are more efficient than internal combustion and even more so when you can supply them with both H2 and pure O2 (instead of air). For the idea to work, it would have to be shown that the heat of CF translated into a greatly increased the rate of water splitting (and it is know to do so only moderately). But since electrolysis is very efficient to start with and since fuel cells can convert at 50% efficiency, you would need a COP of probably only 4 or so to make things interesting. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 06:24:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA17414; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 06:23:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 06:23:34 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 06:17:51 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <001701c1429f$d146dcc0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920153259.03ac6778 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920172827.00aa17c8 pop.mindspring.com> <015001c14222$490d1540$aa69fea9 cpq> <7lblqt8unbldr1u9n8p4846j6aj9agn91k 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"dFd4O2.0.0G4.Lzpgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Robin van Spaandonk" >> 70 atm is not "enormous pressure." >What? 70 atm can cause local acceleration of many times the speed of sound. It is not only enormous, it could probably be classified as small artillery under the right circumstances. > What is the pressure of LPG or CNG tanks used in cars? Having just filled up my propane tank, I think it was about 150 psi (~11 atm) and I was extremely cautious getting it home! The risk of injury from pressure tanks rises considerably (exponentially ?) with the fill pressure. Certainly there are higher pressure tanks for hydrogen that have been designed and proposed for automotive use but they are filament wound and very expensive and cannot be heated (would they even be permitted?). High pressure combined with heat adds a significant risk factor. A steam powered vehicle in a wreck would have enormous killing potential for bystanders at great distances, but its requirement for enormous radiators to condense steam, and the risk of leaks in those is probably an even greater statistical problem. I suspect that western Governments would only permit these kind of risk factors if and only if we run out of all other options. Having thought about this further, however, I do believe that there does exist a large and significant market for the "wet CF/ steam" implementation that Rothwell is suggesting. This would be in India, China, and the Asian third world where fossil fuels are dear, transportation is already limited by lack of cheap fuels, and to be brutally honest, where life has less perceived value to governmental bureaucrats. I could easily envision a market for millions of CF/ steam-powered small buses and trucks (with gigantic radiators mounted on top) in third world Asia. Best of all, this an immediate market where all kinds of investment incentives could be imagined. Tell you the truth, any inventor with a social conscience should actually feel better about servicing the desperate needs of this market, rather than providing just one of many alternatives to the whims of the cushy west. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 08:14:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31435; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:13:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:13:45 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010921110753.00aa55f8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:14:11 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF In-Reply-To: <000901c14297$5adccfc0$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> <008701c141fc$bffbd180$aa69fea9 cpq> <2telqt474jsd0961gu0cl78eqc3iv6bvs2 4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"0jxgK1.0.4h7.eargx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > Why bother? Just add air and burn in an IC engine. > >This is deuterium we are talking about. The heavy water must be collected >from the fuel cell and recycled. Although deuterium is potentially cheap >on the unregulated world market, and supposedly non-toxic, I don't think >too many folks would like it spewing out everywhere in the exhaust of vehicles. Deuterium is everywhere. It is 1/7000 of all the water and water vapor on earth. When you release D2 gas or heavy water vapor into the air, it immediately mixes in with ordinary water in the same ratio. In a wet cell you have to burn it (recombine it), and this does produce heat, but there would be no reason to release it into the atmosphere. This would be a crazy thing to do, because heavy water is expensive, and opening the output to air would contaminate the remaining stock. Heavy water will become far cheaper in a CF economy, but it will still cost ~$10 per kg I suppose, so you would not want to release it. In any case, only a tiny amount of electrolysis is needed to drive an optimum cell, and a practical, commercial device will be optimized. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 08:38:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA09718; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:37:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:37:31 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010921111929.03433ec0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:37:51 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF In-Reply-To: <7lblqt8unbldr1u9n8p4846j6aj9agn91k 4ax.com> References: <015001c14222$490d1540$aa69fea9 cpq> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920153259.03ac6778 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920172827.00aa17c8 pop.mindspring.com> <015001c14222$490d1540$aa69fea9 cpq> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Hye7u3.0.mN2.wwrgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:19:16 -0700: >[snip] > >> 70 atm is not "enormous pressure." > > > >What? 70 atm can cause local acceleration of many times the speed of sound. > >It is not only enormous, it could probably be classified as small artillery > >under the right circumstances. > >What is the pressure of LPG or CNG tanks used in cars? 56 atm. SCUBA diving tanks are 204 atm. See: http://www.howstuffworks.com/scuba1.htm I have seen Mizuno CF cell that was pressure tested to 150 atm. It is a modest size and weight. Beene is correct that a pressurized cylinder can accelerate quickly and cause damage. In a factory or laboratory, pressurized gas tanks should be securely chained standing up. If one falls over and the top is broken off, the tank can fly off and kill someone, although I doubt it reaches the speed of sound! 70 atm is modest pressure. I do not understand why Beene thinks it would be necessary in the first place, but if it is, small amounts of water at this pressure can easily be contained in something like an steel engine block. A 20 kW CF cell would probably be made up of 200 little cells, with 5 ml of heavy water each, no more than a liter or two. A block of steel with 200 5 ml holes drilled in it can easily contain 70 atm in each hole, with perfect safety. The steam turbine working fluid would not be under less pressure than a high temperature turbine. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 08:59:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA19951; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:58:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:58:47 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010921113821.034452a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:59:07 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF In-Reply-To: <015001c14222$490d1540$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920153259.03ac6778 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010920172827.00aa17c8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"FoCHW2.0.at4.sEsgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Doesn't matter much. Size of the reator is far less impotant than the >pressure it must contain. You would have to use nearly as many tons of >"pressure tube grade" steel for a small 30 kW, 70 atm reactor/ steam >generator as for one double that size. That can't be true. I have seen small steam turbines in museums and many photographs of them. They are modestly sized machines, no bigger than ICE or piston steam engines with the same power rating. >Makes a lot more sense to use the lower efficiency, but far safer and >lighter Capstone turbine operating at a few atm and 500 degrees C, but >then you must go to gas or plasma CF. As far as I know, Capstone only makes gas turbines, not small steam turbines. I do not see anything about steam at: http://www.capstoneturbine.com/index.asp >Why are you so fixated on steam? Millions were spent trying to revive the >technolgy a couple of decades ago and it just isn't suitable for automobiles. I am not fixated on it. I think thermoelectric will eventually be better. But at present, most of the world's electricity comes from steam turbines. It is a mature technology. I expect steam would be cheaper than TE at first, but I wouldn't know the details. Incidentally, here is a 1911 paper about turbines by Charles Parsons himself! See: http://www.history.rochester.edu/steam/parsons/index.html He lists some of his early machines in Part III, table 1. There are other interesting historic documents in the main listing: http://www.history.rochester.edu/steam/ - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 10:28:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA26329; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:27:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:27:27 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:21:06 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Steam power, CF and the automboile To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <005501c142c1$cd366520$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"t-LAg3.0.BR6.-Xtgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steam power has been tried, retried and rejected for automotive use numerous times over the last century; and the main reason that it has never gotten much more than a parting glance is simply the necessity of steam condensation. The problem with steam condensation is not just the added expense due to the large size or a radiator, but also that size in relation to rest of the vehicle, plus the fear of injury due to failure of the radiator. The American consumer has not been acclimated to a product in which a fair proportion of its exterior surface would need to be devoted to radiating heat into an already overheated environment, and suffice it to say that such a product would be unthinkable in competition with combustion power, up until that time that significant savings could be realized by the elimination of fossil fuel. When we advance out of the fossil fuel age and into an era where a heat source may become developed which has very low incremental fuel costs, then we must face the issue of whether or not the steam engine will be the way that we want to convert the heat of that new technology into mechanical motion. The actual size of the radiator required will depend upon the design and the conductivity of materials, but the standard for dry cooling is the aluminum finned tube. Present automotive radiators are cheaper than finned tubes but can't withstand much pressure. In general you need about 3 lineal meters of finned tubing (5 cm dia.) per kilowatt of power to be generated with steam. This is about .15 Sq. meters of frontal surface area per kilowatt or about 6 square meters for a minimally powered 40 kW vehicle. This works out to about the size of the entire roof of a van-sized vehicle. Pretty scary, but is this what we will be stuck with or... is there an alternative?... especially one that could possibly provide a lower net cost to the driver, a smaller form factor, and significant aesthetic improvement? Well, one interesting idea comes from the "How Stuff Works" web site that Rothwell cites in a previous post: http://www.howstuffworks.com/air-car2.htm Check out the story on the Cryogenic Heat Engine - but at the same time use a little creative imagination and take that idea one step further. Instead of expanding liquid air (that you have made overnight at home) directly into a turbine, think about heating that liquid air with your free energy low grade heat source first, before it is expanded into a turbine. What do you get? Well for one thing, you have tripled the Carnot efficiency of your low grade heat source!. Instead of working within a range of say about 150 degrees Celsius you have increased it to over 450 degree C.; and not only that, you've replaced a nasty looking massive radiator and maybe a ton of high grade structural steel with...basically a thermos tank...but of course, you would need a home unit to make the liquid air while you sleep (not difficult). If I weren't so lazy and distracted by the current world situation, I would research this idea a little more before releasing it into the public domain - at least to see if anybody already has patented it... alas, almost always, someone has... Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 10:30:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28798; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:30:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:30:22 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010921130756.02ade678 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:30:50 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA28768 Resent-Message-ID: <"qOa1f2.0.u17.jatgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Makes a lot more sense to use the lower efficiency, but far safer and >lighter Capstone turbine operating at a few atm and 500 degrees C, but >then you must go to gas or plasma CF. "A few atm" cannot be right, by the way. No steam engine after Newcomen worked at such low pressure! The Capstone literature refers to low pressure natural gas, perhaps as low as a few atm. The gas is ignited in a combustion turbine. I do not know what the pressure is in modern turbines. Here are specs. from late 19th century double expansion piston engine, used until 1954: "Maximum power: 264-465 hp - 85 rpm – Steam consumption: 4.40 kg per hp/h -- Steam pressure: 11 atm at 300°C – Two horizontal, parallel cylinder." See: http://www.museoscienza.org/english/energia/margherita.html This site describes the 14,500 HP high pressure stage of a marine turbine steam engine: http://home.pacifier.com/~rboggs/HPTURB.HTML "High Pressure Steam (red) from the boilers at 600 pounds per square inch (p.s.i.) and 850 degrees Fahrenheit flows from the Steam Chest to the 'Nozzle Box' or 'First Stage'." 600 p.s.i. = 40.1 atm 850 deg F = 454 deg C By the time the steam exists the second stage it is only 75 deg F, which is remarkable. Compare that to the exhaust gas temperature of an ICE. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 11:07:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA16858; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:06:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:06:37 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:00:19 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <006301c142c7$471702a0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010921130756.02ade678 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"PIZAK1.0.I74.i6ugx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > >Makes a lot more sense to use the lower efficiency, but far safer and > >lighter Capstone turbine operating at a few atm and 500 degrees C, but > >then you must go to gas or plasma CF. > "A few atm" cannot be right, by the way. No steam engine after Newcomen > worked at such low pressure! The Capstone literature refers to low pressure > natural gas, perhaps as low as a few atm. The gas is ignited in a > combustion turbine. Jed, get with the program! Capstone does not make steam turbines. What they make is closed-cycle gas turbines. I cited this hurriedly before without explaining it, because I understood that you had been keeping up with the Mills/BLP prior work. This whole technology of applying a LENR cell to a closed cycle turbine has been worked out by them (BLP and Capstone)previously. It is interesting, but far less so than direct conversion. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 11:57:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA13430; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:57:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:57:10 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010921144502.02b27bc0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:57:39 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF In-Reply-To: <006301c142c7$471702a0$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010921130756.02ade678 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3gXxQ1.0.fH3.5sugx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >Jed, get with the program! Capstone does not make steam turbines. What >they make is closed-cycle gas turbines. I cited this hurriedly before >without explaining it . . . Ah, I see. By the way, where does it say 500 deg C? How can a combustion turbine temperature be so low? >. . . because I understood that you had been keeping up with the Mills/BLP >prior work. This whole technology of applying a LENR cell to a closed >cycle turbine has been worked out by them (BLP and Capstone)previously. Apparently I have not been following it closely enough. I do not recall their involvement. This must have been for his thermal processes, not the "gyrotron" discussed on the web site now. I gather they claim the "gyrotron" produces electricity directly. http://www.blacklightpower.com/gyrotron.html It is a shame they keep developing one thing after another, instead of concentrating on one and pushing it out the door. Even if the next thing you think of seems more promising, it is better to finish what you have, sell it, and generate revenue. Frankly, I still doubt that any of these devices actually produces energy. They have not been independently replicated so no one can say for sure, not even BLP. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 12:11:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA22595; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:11:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:11:03 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:18:54 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: BLP.....Mills...Gyrotron Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"khe1C1.0.zW5.73vgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., Are there any Vo who are close tp BLP or can find their spokespeople? Q: Have gyrotrons powered by the BLP process been produced? NOTE: A gyrotron is simply a type of microwave tube like a magnetron or klystron and all three types are very similar in the use of magnetic field and high voltage vacuum tube to assist electrons in following curved oscillating paths. Q: Is the out put of the gyrotron to be used to heat something? I am trying to take some of the mystery and extra words out so we call all understand a little better. Thanks, J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 13:08:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20831; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:07:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:07:37 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:00:56 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <007701c142d8$21958220$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010921130756.02ade678 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010921144502.02b27bc0 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"J7aoq2.0.K55.9uvgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > It is a shame they keep developing one thing after another, instead of > concentrating on one and pushing it out the door. Even if the next thing > you think of seems more promising, it is better to finish what you have, > sell it, and generate revenue. Yes, if there is any one thing that gives me doubts about the company, it is the old "bird in the hand" quandary - why did they drop a potentially good product in 1999 in favor of a better but unproven one. Especially, since they had been giving Capstone (I heard it from that end) the indication they were all but ready to purchase thousands of turbines. I doubt if you follow the Aquarian peace and love guru, Art Rosenblum, but for some strange reason Mills did an interview with him a couple of years ago in which he prominently mentioned Capstone, after which expectations were high in many quarters, not only "new age" but corporate boardroom. Capston's stock went throught the roof, but that could have been for many other reasons. Capstone has also consistently disappointed investors - and in their case it is even more damning because they are working with a technology that basically goes back to Herodotus. > Frankly, I still doubt that any of these devices actually produces energy. > They have not been independently replicated so no one can say for sure, not > even BLP. But this is almost exactly what the CF skeptics say about cold fusion. Most objective observers are convinced that Mills' has produced excess energy for some extended periods of time; and he says he has independent replication. Whether the rest of the story gets down to a problem of reliability, or just development difficulties that should not be unexpected in any new venture, no one knows for sure. Let's face it, most on this forum believe that CF is real, but few would bet money that any particular researcher could bring a demo cell into a testing laboratory and be absolutely sure that it would be immediately and clearly OU for several hours of testing time. If you know of such a demo, please mention it (as who knows one when might have the opportunity to plug it to a wealthy investor, that is, if there are any left after this weeks market dive.) I have put in hundreds of hours reading Mills book, studying the critics responses, and following all the facts and gossip, and yet I'm not sure of the truth. If BLP doesn't come up with something substantive in the next six months, however, my calculations indicate that the VC money will be all but gone, the pink slips will be floating, and insider's tongues will be wagging. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 13:17:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24689; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:16:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:16:34 -0700 From: Keasy aol.com Message-ID: <86.fee580c.28dcfa1a aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:16:26 EDT Subject: Re: size of photon To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Resent-Message-ID: <"dio4r3.0.h16.X0wgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 9/20/01 2:57:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, herman antioch-college.edu writes: > > What is a photon? > Well, science at present has a number of words of description, but perhaps > no > clear definition. The October issue (I received today) of National Geographics has an interesting article on light, photons, and what we know/don't know about it. Ken From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 14:02:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10049; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:01:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:01:38 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:54:47 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: BLP.....Mills...Gyrotron To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <008501c142df$a6640ec0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: Resent-Message-ID: <"Cg3et3.0.tS2.ngwgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "John Schnurer" > Q: Is the out put of the gyrotron to be used to heat > something? John, The reference that Jed gave earlier: http://www.blacklightpower.com/gyrotron.html & other pfd papers on the web site can answer many of your questions but will probably raise even more. It is technically a "cold plasma pumped reverse gyrotron" in that it converts microwave energy into electricity at high efficiency. The microwaves are created in a hydrino plasma ( Ar/Sr/H ) by energetic electrons being accelerated, presumably by EUV absorption and at the same time forced into rotation by the interaction of a strong magnetic field. About the only thing that non-insiders can be relatively sure of is that the hydrino reaction is proven to produce copious EUV. I say "sure" in the sense that if it is not so, then Mills is guilty of investor fraud on a grand scale, due to what he has published. There is a diagram and a picture of the machine on the pfd document cited above. If you have a slow web connection, go to the library and download the document and print it there - because it is large. The problem is, since the device has been around for over a year, why hasn't one turned up in a lab somewhere? Maybe it has and we're just sitting on the cusp of something big. Maybe Mills is heavily into self-deception. You be the judge. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 14:09:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12708; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:06:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:06:41 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010921161701.02ade678 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:07:04 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF In-Reply-To: <007701c142d8$21958220$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010921130756.02ade678 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010921144502.02b27bc0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"7RnOJ.0.O63.Vlwgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > > Frankly, I still doubt that any of these devices actually produces energy. > > They have not been independently replicated so no one can say for sure, not > > even BLP. > >But this is almost exactly what the CF skeptics say about cold fusion. That is exactly what they say, but they are wrong. CF has been independently replicated by hundreds of researchers. As far as I know, the BLP claims have not been. BLP claims that a number of other experiments support their theory. They may be right about that -- I can't judge -- but that is not the same as a replication. >Most objective observers are convinced that Mills' has produced excess >energy for some extended periods of time . . . It makes no difference how many people are convinced, or how objective and smart they are. We must see replications. No other standard applies. Nothing is true until it is replicated. >. . . and he says he has independent replication. Oh, does he? How interesting! Does he provide the names of the researchers? It is not enough to know that replications have been performed. To judge the issue, one must have some knowledge of the replications. I would have to see detailed reports from these independent researchers, and I would have to ask them many questions and perhaps visit their labs before I accept their results. Mitchell Swartz also claims that his cells were independently replicated. That may well be so, but he has not told me the names of the researchers. I have no reports from them, and no knowledge of their work, so as far as I am concerned they might as well not exist. I cannot draw conclusions about reports I am not allowed to see. >Let's face it, most on this forum believe that CF is real, but few would >bet money that any particular researcher could bring a demo cell into a >testing laboratory and be absolutely sure that it would be immediately and >clearly OU for several hours of testing time. I would not bet that a cell would work immediately, but I have "bet" a great deal of money on the hopes that various cells would work eventually, perhaps after weeks of testing. So far, none has. I prefer to think of this as 'research' or a 'venture,' rather than a bet, but perhaps that is a fussy distinction and there is no real difference between research and betting. > If you know of such a demo, please mention it . . . The closest thing is the glow discharge W cathodes that Mizuno and Ohmori make. Scott Little could not make them work, but other people say they have. Whether they actually work or not remains an open question. It is rather difficult to see how they could be made into a practical source of energy anytime soon, so I doubt the short-horizon, hockey-stick venture capitalists would be interested. The second closest thing is the deposition cathodes Ed Storms made over the last year. We originally hope that he can ship us one. Although they all appear to work, the power levels are too low to be easily detected, and we have not had an opportunity to test one in New Hampshire. >I have put in hundreds of hours reading Mills book, studying the critics >responses, and following all the facts and gossip, and yet I'm not >sure of the truth. Naturally you are not. No one can be, without independent replications. Speculating about theories or reading the tea leaves in corporate press releases and gossip is no substitute for scientific proof. >If BLP doesn't come up with something substantive in the next six >months, however, my calculations indicate that the VC money will be all >but gone, the pink slips will be floating, and insider's tongues will be >wagging. If that happens they will have only themselves to blame. Assuming the experiments work as they claim, they could easily avoid that catastrophe by helping other people replicate now, and by handing out small samples of the materials, and selling prototypes. A few months later they could collect a billion dollars in venture capital at attractive terms. I suspect the results may not be as clear cut or promising as they say. I fear they may be fooling themselves. I have no evidence for that at BLP, but I have seen many, many others fall into that trap, in cold fusion as well as conventional fields such as product R&D, medical research, software development, business ventures, and so on. I must have read a hundred similar tales of woe in the back pages of the newspaper business section. I hate to make pessimistic predictions, but it happens so often, I cannot help but suspect it is happening again. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 14:37:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA30231; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:36:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:36:31 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:44:09 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Jones Beene cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP.....Mills...Gyrotron In-Reply-To: <008501c142df$a6640ec0$aa69fea9 cpq> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"uU-nf3.0.DO7.VBxgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear JB, I have seen the diagram of the GT.. it looks like a GT....no problem, per se, with that. I can even believe to operates... but what it will do is make microwaves... I do not see it making DC or acting as a king of a demodulator of uWave to DC. This would be a grand invention in and of itself. Which does not mean there is NOT one.... I just don't know of one, but am certainly going to search. And, if there is not one, I guess I will hit the books and see about designing one! I have a good time working with Vacuum and low pressure gas tube devices. It is a grand medium. And, while on the topic... many "tube" designs can be made on a micro surface condition scale.... this does not mean, per se, the end device is teeny tiny one for miniature use, although this can be the goal, it means the features of some aspects can be made on the micro or nano level so as to simplify desing. A 0.55 " by 1.8 " tube can be 2 " by 2" by 0.250 with the "action" happening over a distance of 0.1 ". J On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Jones Beene wrote: > From: "John Schnurer" > > > Q: Is the out put of the gyrotron to be used to heat > > something? > > John, > > The reference that Jed gave earlier: > http://www.blacklightpower.com/gyrotron.html > > & other pfd papers on the web site can answer many of your questions but > will probably raise even more. > > It is technically a "cold plasma pumped reverse gyrotron" in that it > converts microwave energy into electricity at high efficiency. The > microwaves are created in a hydrino plasma ( Ar/Sr/H ) by energetic > electrons being accelerated, presumably by EUV absorption and at the same > time forced into rotation by the interaction of a strong magnetic field. > > About the only thing that non-insiders can be relatively sure of is that the > hydrino reaction is proven to produce copious EUV. I say "sure" in the sense > that if it is not so, then Mills is guilty of investor fraud on a grand > scale, due to what he has published. There is a diagram and a picture of the > machine on the pfd document cited above. If you have a slow web connection, > go to the library and download the document and print it there - because it > is large. > > The problem is, since the device has been around for over a year, why hasn't > one turned up in a lab somewhere? Maybe it has and we're just sitting on the > cusp of something big. Maybe Mills is heavily into self-deception. You be > the judge. > > Jones > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 15:16:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA17125; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:16:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:16:02 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:08:25 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: BLP.....Mills...Gyrotron To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <00a801c142e9$efe10800$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: Resent-Message-ID: <"pqG9r1.0.OB4.Xmxgx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "John Schnurer" > I do not see it making DC or acting as a > kind of a demodulator of uWave to DC. Here is a Siemens patent that was said to have been bought by our govenrment and supposedly kept out of publication for many years, then reportedly it "slipped" into the public archives by mistake after it expired. Supposedly it powered a top secret drone aircraft from the ground in a project that has remained so well buried that it is still not in Jane's. I doubt if the back story is true, but check out the patent - the claims are incredible- 90% efficient. As you know, Siemens is kind of the IBM or GE of Europe. US3462636: SYSTEM FOR THE CONVERSION OF MICROWAVE ENERGY INTO ELECTRIC DIRECT CURRENT ENERGY UTILIZING AN ELECTRON BEAM TUBE BTW I am not a conspiracy theorist but one shouldn't discount the possiblity that the DoD, in its near-infinte wisdom, could occassionally overlook the civilian possiblitites of an asset, kind of like that last scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 15:45:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA29807; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:44:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:44:24 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Stirling powered wet CF Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:44:11 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010920121709.03ad6b58 pop.mindspring.com> <008701c141fc$bffbd180$aa69fea9@cpq> <2telqt474jsd0961gu0cl78eqc3iv6bvs2@4ax.com> <000901c14297$5adccfc0$aa69fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <000901c14297$5adccfc0$aa69fea9 cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA29745 Resent-Message-ID: <"uFg6q2.0.NH7.5Bygx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 21 Sep 2001 05:17:16 -0700: [snip] >This is deuterium we are talking about. Not necessarily. There are also light water CF reactors, just ask Mitchell Swartz. ;) [snip] >Plus fuel cells are more efficient than internal combustion and even more so >when you can supply them with both H2 and pure O2 (instead of air). For the >idea to work, it would have to be shown that the heat of CF translated into >a greatly increased the rate of water splitting (and it is know to do so >only moderately). But since electrolysis is very efficient to start with and >since fuel cells can convert at 50% efficiency, you would need a COP of >probably only 4 or so to make things interesting. [snip] You still need to either separate the O2 and H2 after production (variation on Frederick's oxygen separator perhaps?), or during electrolysis itself (as is currently done). The problem with the latter, as I see it, is that if CF can be adjusted to maximise the H2 and O2 produced, that will likely be as a result of the production of x-rays or UV, which unfortunately are going to produce mixed gasses, mandating some form of external separation. I agree however that fuel cells are to be preferred where efficiency and environment are concerned, but cost wise IC engines will initially have an edge. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 15:49:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA32150; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:48:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:48:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3BABC3DA.EFC65910 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:48:58 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Sep 21, 2001] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"i6RIJ3.0.Es7.nEygx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Sep 21, 2001 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:56:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 21 Sep 01 Washington, DC 1. NMD: MISSILE TEST RESTRICTIONS DROPPED FROM DEFENSE BILL. It should surprise no one that the lessons politicians drew from the terrorist attack reflect what they already believed. Proponents of NMD, for example, see the use of hijacked aircraft in the attack as proof that terrorists and rogue states will resort to any means to attack us. Exactly, say their opponents, but with a seemingly unlimited supply of would-be martyrs, why would they bother with ballistic missiles? Missiles are costly, and have a return address. To avoid a divisive floor debate on defense, Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI), Chairman of the Armed Services Committee, agreed this week to drop a provision in the Defense Authorization bill that would have prohibited missile tests that violate the 1972 ABM treaty. Democrats are expected to introduce separate legislation imposing NMD test restrictions, and the authorization bill still cuts $1.3B from the $8.3B White House request for NMD. But even that is likely to change as defense fervor grows. 2. BUDGET: TERRORIST ATTACK BREAKS INTO THE LOCK BOX. Remember the huge surplus that suddenly vanished (WN 31 Aug 01)? On Wednesday, the director of the Office of Management and Budget told science reps the Administration's goal is to maintain the cap on discretionary spending at $679B. It's OK if Congress wants to spend more on science, he said, as long as the cap remains in place. But costs of war and clean-up from the attacks are not included in the caps. He urged the scientific community to resist academic earmarks by insisting that peer review be used to ensure quality. Every Administration opposes earmarks (items inserted in agency budgets that were never requested by the agencies), and every Congress inserts them. They have a way of showing up in the districts of powerful appropriators. 3. EVEN NOW: GULLIBILITY FLOURISHES IN THE MIDST OF DEVASTATION. Who was really behind the terrorist attack? Papers across the nation ran an AP photo of the smoke cloud rising from the ruins of the World Trade Center that took the shape of a face. Not just any face, mind you, but old Lucifer himself, though how people could be so sure it was Satan and not a case of mistaken identity is unclear. Meanwhile, other papers were running a prediction of the WTC tragedy by the legendary astrologer Nostradamus in 1654. The leading expert on Nostradamus, James Randi, says the quote is a total fabrication. Meanwhile, clambering over the ruins, were people claiming to search for survivors with the DKL LifeGuard. Three years ago (WN 30 Oct 98) the DKL LifeGuard was marketed to law-enforcement agencies with the claim that it could detect electric impulses from the heartbeat of humans through 500 feet of concrete and steel. Alas, in a double-blind test at Sandia Labs it did no better than chance and was revealed to be nothing more than a fancy dowsing rod with buttons and lights. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the American Physical Society or the University, but they should be. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 19:08:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA14703; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:07:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:07:24 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20010921215709.01d5d488 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 22:03:03 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Dr. Mitchell Swartz" Subject: Cold Fusion Times 8-2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ZYge03.0.Zb3.S9_gx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear colleagues: Thank you for your support in this field. The new Cold Fusion Times (vol 8, n 2) is at the printer. The issue is covered briefly here, along with the cover page http://world.std.com/~mica/cftnew.html [ The Cold Fusion web site: http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html ] Best wishes. Dr. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 21 19:26:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22606; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:25:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:25:56 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Novel combination Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 12:25:34 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <84tnqt83a0tc8e8phtaio4ggeun714deof 4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA22560 Resent-Message-ID: <"Vj7Ud3.0.8X5.qQ_gx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, Hydrocatalysis requires an energy hole of a multiple of 27.2 eV. If one had a cavity with a resonant energy of 27.2 eV, then maybe a hydrogen atom entering the cavity could use it as an energy hole, causing the cavity to resonate. 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 etc. size cavities should also work, however the cavity size may need to be quite exact. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 22 05:44:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA11509; Sat, 22 Sep 2001 05:43:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 05:43:44 -0700 Message-ID: <20010922124410.32750.qmail web20602.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 05:44:10 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris Subject: The spatial harnessing of resonance using water/TEC public announcement To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"OVF471.0.cp2._T8hx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am issuing this as a Tesla Electric Co. announcement. I as the founder of the Co. represent my interests and claims to others in the interest of bringing my invention into the world. But in typical fashion that would have Tesla envious, I am releasing the speculations of what CAN or COULD occur, before the actual testing begins. The purpose here is to indicate to the public that pending the first inductive reactance tests, that all the technical problems inherent with geometry, frequency and inherent losses in systems considered, have made possible the first FLUX CAPACITOR TESTINGS, using water as a dielectric. What is done is that a water capacity, using one set of plates that do not have direct contact with the water, but instead capacitive use of glass and poly intervening barriers, to establish an AXIAL WATER CAPACITY. This consists of the majority of interior volume space of large induction coils in resonance at 480 hz. There is a three phase alternator power input where the capacity needed for a coils resonance, is itself contained as these water capacities, where they themselves are placed in the magnetic field of the adjacent phase, securing a postulated semi unidirectional Lorentz force interaction between interphased E X B fields derived from resonance. This is the coveted SPATIAL HARNESSING OF RESONANCE, WHERE THE FIELDS IN RESONANCE NOT ONLY OCCUPY POTENTIAL ELECTRIC AND KINETIC MAGNETIC FIELDS ORTHOGONALLY IN THE SAME SPACE, BUT ALSO EXPRESS THEMSELVES AS NEARLY CONCURRENT IN TIME AS THE 120 PHASING AT RESONANCE CAN ALLOW. This is predicted to create a 3 dimensional spin within a spin on the macroscopic collection of water molecules, possibly creating the gyroscopic reaction force translating itself as water votexian action, or water vortices created soley by cohered EXB reaction forces derived orthogonally from fields in resonance. It is also speculated that the water will lose temperature, and the part playing the role of energy extractor, can itself grow colder proportional the the amount of energy extraction! When this is proven, if it can be, the Co. can Incorporate, securing funds for purchase of the correct coils, showing the better effects obtainable with direct 90 degree phasing vs that of 120.! TEC undoubtably is one of the few companies in the US that has a Large Amperage Variable 6 phase Reluctance Alternator at its disposal. But the purpose here for those questioning the methods that others might wish to replicate, these conditions of testing are supplied with an ordinary Delco Remy car alternator that has had its diodes removed for 3 phase AC operation. Here is a past reference to what I am talking about concerning the spatial harnessing of resonance; : "Harvey D Norris" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 2:55 am Subject: Flux Capacitor/ the Spatial Harnessing of Resonance. Following is a post to electrogravity list concerning this matter. --- Quark137 aol.com wrote: > Associates in Electrogravitation - > http://www.electrogravity.com > > Dear Associates and All: > I am pleased to announce the posting of Steve Burns > new paper, "Device.pdf" > available now online at: > http://www.electrogravity.com/UFOPLAN/index.html > > This paper deals with the generation and control of > the electrogravitational > field capable of propulsion and gravitational field > modification. > > Respectfully, > Jerry E. Bayles > quark137 aol.com The concept here presented of a "standing wave" on a lossless transmission line in many ways presents the same idea as a single phased flux capacitor. In the transmission line standing wave analogy, it is the "space" arounde the two wire transmission line that contains the electric and magnetic field components. However some confusion may be in order here by the traditional historic confusion regarding resonance and anti-resonance. The standing wave analogy is made analogous to antiresonance, or the parallel resonance found in a tank circuit. In that condition the phase angles are almost ,but never truly 180 out of phase. It is the lossless case of zero resistance that would make the phases truly 180 degrees phase shifted. Because the space around the wires itself will contain both the electric field and magnetic field E and B vectors,in orthogonal relationship, the power dissipation in space is given as the cross vector product of E and B. It will be noted that the author Steve Burns shows this Ponting vector at various time periods in the standing wave, as acting in opposite directions. This is exactly the predicted action of a single phased flux capacitor. Let us define what this means. To do this we will expand the double wire transmission line example to actual large discrete components. I use 20,000 wind, 23 gauge, 60 henry air core coils for this research. We then have a large quantity L. It is necessary for this quantity to be large in order to make this flux capacitor, because ordinarily we might first try to construct one using the 60 hz wall frequency. Now to resonate the large coil at 60 hz requires a C value in series with L at about .12 uf. Because of the acting q of 15 in these coils, a resonant voltage rise of 15 times the 120 volts household AC input will occur, in opposite polarities, in both the series joined LC quantities. There is nothing new or profound in those facts at all. To resonate the coils a large series of oil caps are made to accomidate the voltage rises, where these 60 henry coils can also be 440 volt inputed, due to the 1000 ohms resistance they contain. We have a situation where a Magnetic field B, containing LI^2/2 joules, expresses itself,(closely) concurrent to the voltage input, where the primary location in space of this highest flux density of the magnetic field is in its interior core volume. Now the energy is all expressed kinetically, and when it goes into its potential form as the electric field quantity CV^2/2, that energy storage will have moved to a different space, the space of the oil based capacitors. The remarkable adaptation I have called a "Flux Capacitor" is to make the important possibility of allowing an orthogonal reaction force between the energy manifestations inherent in E and B vector reaction products. To do this merely only shows the hard route ahead in attempting to actually construct a flux capacitor example. To make the example it is only necessary to make the provision that both the energy transfer manifestions from L to C occuring twice per input frequency resonance,WERE MADE TO OCCUR IN THE SAME SPATIAL VOLUMES IN ORTHOGONAL RELATIONSHIP, SECURING THE REQUIREMENT FOR A E X B REACTION FORCE. The obvious problems with this proposal is recognized by the requirement of a axial cylindrical capacity that can be inserted into the core volume of the coil. This reveals the limitations of that approach, because no mechanical reaction forces would be noted, because in each half cycle of resonance, the E X B reaction force would be in opposing directions, exactly as shown in the transmisson wire example. Thus to secure the requirement that E X B be unidirectional, we must make even a further modification. We do not need a rotor that acts like a washing machine, producing opposing torques on each half cycle of input frequency. Thus the idea of making a flux capacitor is abandoned, to make two juxtaposed flux capacitors, producing two unidirectional reaction forces on two cylindrical capacities, in two Separate E X B reactions. In the first modification, the fields in resonance were given the requirement that they both exist in the same space. In the second modification, two power inputs, or phases are used to make the additional requirement that both electric and magnetic fields also exist in the same time period. A single phase of resonance has an oscillation of energy where it is either kinetic or potential, expressed as magnetic field or electric, and these relative expressions in time being 90 degrees out of phase. So now to satisfy the requirement that one input phase of resonance will contain a full electric field, at the same time that its adjacent phase will contain a full magnetic field, simply means that the correct input phasing for that relationship will be 90 degrees also. To procure a theorized unidirectional reaction force, two flux capacitors are not made, but instead the cylindrical capacity rotor from one resonant phase is inserted into the magnetic field from the adjacent phase, and vice versa, so that we could say we have a set of juxtaposed flux capacitors, where all 4 L and C quantites are interphased for reaction. Remarkable possibilities also exist in this approach. First of all, because of the size of the coils, the energy transfer through fields in resonance can exceed the energy transfer as I squared R ohmic losses on the coils. It is the flux capacitor idea that itself that taps into that energy tranfer, without in turn deleting the potential available in the E field, which always occurs in direct schematic insertion of a load into the resonance quantity. At 60 hz,120 volts AC these coils will have 15 watts energy transfer as heat loss, but 45 watts in resonant energy tranfer. That output is also found in the single phased theorized E X B reaction, simply because the energy is limited by timing which only .707 of an expanding magnetic field can react with .707 of a collapsing magnetic field. Thus it is easy to see in the postulated single phase case, the output does not exceed the input as measured as that resonant energy transfer. However when we change this scenario so that a full magnetic field DOES react with a full electric field, on a (summed)non cancelling reaction force over time, we begun to indeed wonder why that output,(actually two outputs) would not exceed those two power inputs. How this might eventually apply to antigravity would be the additional adaptation made where the coils themselves are bound to the rotors to produce a self reactional movement. I have seen this possible in a DC demonstration, and all of the above is the same analogy applied to AC. In The DC demonstration, a current passed from the center of a neodymium disc to a mercury bath caused the magnet to rotate on its center axis, parallel to B. Here a Static E as superimposed voltage perpendicular to the bound B of the magnet itself, cases a reaction force that is not in cancellation with the input, simply because that reaction force is orthogonal, and not directly opposed to that input, where this can broadly be defined as analogous to a gyroscopic self reaction force. Tests with this idea are currently being made used a Strontium ferrite capacity. The typical problem with a postulated flux cap construction consists of the fact that high dielectric constant materials must be used, otherwise the capacity needed for resonance would never fit inside the volume of the air core inductor, at right angle field orientation. To decrease the needed amount of capacity, the input frequerncy can be increased, where for these tests 476 hz by alternator AC conversion is used for a 3 phase input. The needed Sr Fe capacity of one phase, will be inserted into an adjacent phases magnetic field. Note that because the inputs would be 120 phased resonances, instead of 90, a partial cancellation force will still exists as a E x B reaction force. But if a 90 degree deflection force is shown to exist, this paves the way for an actual 90 degree phased version of the principle. Sincerely HDN ===== Binary Resonant System http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 22 17:26:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA25849; Sat, 22 Sep 2001 17:25:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 17:25:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host p114-nas8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.218.114] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3BAD2A58.255A9C75 ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:18:33 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hameltech yahoogroups.com, Mr_Tracys_Corner@yahoogroups.com, vortex-l eskimo.com, intj-list@yahoogroups.com, jlnlabs yahoogroups.com, digital-dowsers@yahoogroups.com, CDV700CLUB yahoogroups.com, geodowser@yahoogroups.com Subject: Warning Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_xgUM3.0.pJ6.HmIhx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,175951,00.html TIME Exclusive: Cropduster Manual Discovered in Suspected Terrorist Hideout Sources tell TIME that U.S. officials suspect that bin Laden conspirators may have been planning to disperse biological or chemical agents from cropdusting planes BY MASSIMO CALABRESI AND SALLY DONNELLYDONNELLY Saturday, Sep. 22, 2001 New York -- U.S. law enforcement officials have found a manual on the operation of cropdusting equipment while searching suspected terrorist hideouts, government sources tell TIME magazine in an issue out on Monday, Sept. 24th. The discovery has added to concerns among government counterterrorism experts that the bin Laden conspirators may have been planning < or may still be planning Subject: Re: Novel combination To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <000d01c1443f$98858480$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <84tnqt83a0tc8e8phtaio4ggeun714deof 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"U3_8l3.0.Ri6.iYVhx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > Hydrocatalysis requires an energy hole of a multiple of 27.2 eV. If one > had a cavity with a resonant energy of 27.2 eV, then maybe a hydrogen > atom entering the cavity could use it as an energy hole... Robin, You seem to be using the term, energy "hole" here in the literal sense of a physical hole. Is that correct? My previous assumption from Mills' work had been that this wording, "hole" was more of a symbolic or abstract representation, not a physical space. Can you reference anything about how this usage of a physical hole relates to a measure of mass/ energy, i.e.. 27.2 eV? I was looking back at some of the past postings in the HSG archives, where you stated (in March), "I don't see where the necessity for a fixed "energy hole" would come from, but then I don't really understand that in Dr. Mills theory either. I do appreciate that some form of disturbance is required to knock the atom out of its current state, and also to absorb some energy to "convince" it to shrink. I just don't see why this should per se be a fixed amount. Without being able to nail down either the kinetic energy or the energy hole value, it is not possible to determine the energy values" I take it that since that earlier post, you have now resolved this issue in your own mind, so can you explain it to me in a little more detail? If it is already in the archives, just give me the cite. I guess that even in the non-literal sense, a hole must somehow relate to a negative energy state - and yes that would imply negative mass... but that would not necessarily have to be anti-matter, right? More like a temporal state, a time vacuum, to use a strange analogy. When I first read Mills theory, I thought he was trying to play it into the QM "pair-production" thing, in other works the "real" reactions borrows half of virtual pair and leaves the "hole" but that assumption doesn't now appear to be able to explain the "free energy" results in any statistical sense. If the concept of "energy hole" could be taken literally, that is as a space of certain known dimensions, then that step would indeed explain a lot about why the palladium matrix sometimes works with deuterium and sometimes it doesn't. Since Pd is not precisely a Mills' catalyst and since it does nevertheless provide an interstitial restraint on the atom (or most likely the D2 molecule), then that fact might explain the findings of Ed Storms and others that it is not the Pd that is critical but the smaller impurities. Others have suggested that the active sites must have some other kind of crystal deformity from the normal Pd crystal in order to become active. Is that were you are taking this? What about using an alloy of palladium with a true Mills' catalyst, rather than trying to engineer spatial deformities in a matrix? Deformities could not be maintained for very long in a dynamic situation anyway as any violent reaction at an active site would spread through the phonons for a considerable distance. A Pd-Sr alloy would be a very interesting choice, don't you think? Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 23 15:52:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25434; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:51:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:51:56 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Novel combination Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:51:53 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <84tnqt83a0tc8e8phtaio4ggeun714deof 4ax.com> <000d01c1443f$98858480$aa69fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <000d01c1443f$98858480$aa69fea9 cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA25405 Resent-Message-ID: <"4Tts3.0.KD6.CUchx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 23 Sep 2001 07:54:06 -0700: >From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > >> Hydrocatalysis requires an energy hole of a multiple of 27.2 eV. If one >> had a cavity with a resonant energy of 27.2 eV, then maybe a hydrogen >> atom entering the cavity could use it as an energy hole... > >Robin, > >You seem to be using the term, energy "hole" here in the literal sense of a >physical hole. Is that correct? Yes, and no. :) It seems to me that perhaps a physical hole can also be an energy hole in the sense of a microwave cavity, but then for EUV rather than microwaves. [snip] >I was looking back at some of the past postings in the HSG archives, where >you stated (in March), "I don't see where the necessity for a fixed "energy >hole" would come from, but then I don't really understand that in Dr. Mills >theory either. I do appreciate that some form of disturbance is required to >knock the atom out of its current state, and also to absorb some energy to >"convince" it to shrink. I just don't see why this should per se be a fixed >amount. Without being able to nail down either the kinetic energy or the >energy hole value, it is not possible to determine the energy values" > >I take it that since that earlier post, you have now resolved this issue in >your own mind, so can you explain it to me in a little more detail? If it is >already in the archives, just give me the cite. I have not resolved the issue in my own mind, but am forced to acknowledge the success of Mills' experiments, which indeed seem to confirm the 27.2 eV, so for the time being I stick with it as a working hypothesis. [snip] >If the concept of "energy hole" could be taken literally, that is as a space >of certain known dimensions, then that step would indeed explain a lot about >why the palladium matrix sometimes works with deuterium and sometimes it >doesn't. This observation led me to suggest it in the first place (as well as the recent discussions on nano-particles). >Since Pd is not precisely a Mills' catalyst and since it does >nevertheless provide an interstitial restraint on the atom (or most likely >the D2 molecule), then that fact might explain the findings of Ed Storms and >others that it is not the Pd that is critical but the smaller impurities. >Others have suggested that the active sites must have some other kind of >crystal deformity from the normal Pd crystal in order to become active. Is >that were you are taking this? Yes, but it was not only my intent to provide an explanation, but also a possible engineering path. > >What about using an alloy of palladium with a true Mills' catalyst, rather >than trying to engineer spatial deformities in a matrix? Deformities could >not be maintained for very long in a dynamic situation anyway as any violent >reaction at an active site would spread through the phonons for a >considerable distance. A Pd-Sr alloy would be a very interesting choice, >don't you think? Yes, I do. The more so, because I suspect that it is actually Sr+ that acts as the catalyst, and this may be prevalent in a metal where one of the atomic electrons has "run off to join the navy" sailing the Fermi sea. ;) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 23 17:25:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA32097; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 17:24:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 17:24:08 -0700 Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 17:19:17 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: CF, tritium & the Mills hydrino To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <004d01c1448e$8ca8c4c0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"PfJit3.0.Mr7.eqdhx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Of all the experiments that have appeared as confirmation for the proposition that nuclear reactions can readily occur in low energy systems, few if any can compare to the work of Tom Claytor, et al. in terms of: 1.) Thoroughness of the documentation 2.) Credentials of the experimenters 3.) Prestige of the laboratory 4.) Correctness of the setup and of the control 5.) Clarity of the conclusion i.e. sigma>10 This is the ONE study that CF advocates should be always citing to skeptics, unless of course, they have some proprietary interest in promoting the work of other less thorough or less accomplished researchers, and/or do not like the possibility that, on closer scrutiny, the experiment has more in common with the work of Randell Mills than P&F. The Claytor work is a large indisputable positive discovery of nuclear ash with side-by-side controls and it does NOT rely in any way on calorimetry, but rather on several different forms of radiation counting. Scintillation counters are comparatively difficult to fool, especially when one is looking at a cool cell days after a run. In contrast, one rarely sees a calorimetry study that doesn't generate some complaints about the subjectivity of the readings or the quality of the setup. Therefore, let's look into a group of related questions. Can it be shown that Claytor began this type of plasma work before Mills, and even though Claytor doesn't cite Mills, has he (TC) ever acknowledged the similarities? Though some of Claytor's conclusions can be explained in terms of Randell Mills' CGM theory, might it actually improve on Mills' theory? Would this work invalidate or weaken the Mills patents, if it can be shown that the tritium that is produced in the Claytor experiment comes from the fusion of deuterinos rather than ground state deuterium? Note: Claytor has tried his setup with plain hydrogen, rather than deuterium and he finds zero tritium. In fact, he uses hydrogen as a control. This fact doesn't impact the present hypothesis at all, because Claytor did not look for hydrinos or excess energy, plus Mills theory would say that he should NOT find tritium with hydrogen/ hydrinos; tritium would derive only with deuterium/ deuterinos. Here are some other interesting factoids (or claim-oids) that you might wish to keep in mind in evaluating the assertion that Claytor's work might have a connection to Mills. Let's use big "D" for deuterium and little "d" for the deuterino and assume that initially, molecular D2 is stored in the interstitial Pd matrix, rather than atomic D. I don't have the cite for this controversial factoid handy, but I'll look further if anybody wants to question it. Anyway, I have seen in the past an electron microscope photo of loaded Pd that clearly indicates molecular, not atomic, hydrogen in the matrix. At any rate: *Claytor now uses a cold plasma, like Mills, rather than a wet system *His plasma parameter are not too different from Mills, except higher pressure *Claytor doesn't get tritium until the experiment has been going on for many days. One explanation for the delay is that a significant proportion of the D2 in the matrix must be converted to D-d before tritium will begin to form. *Claytor has used palladium alloys that sometimes show more nuclear ash than pure palladium *In the Mills' theory, at least as it has been interpreted to apply to subsequent, fusion, d+d or D+d will produce tritium, not helium. *Though he has apparently not looked specifically at Mills catalysts as alloys, the ones' that work (Rh, Co, Cu, Ni, Be, B, Li, Hf, Hg and Fe) might indicate that it is a physical spacing that provides the energy hole rather than a Mills 27.2 eV catalyst. This might supplement Mills' theory or indeed negate some of Mills' patent claims. Further experiments that would help us know what is going on: *The Mills' catalyst in Claytor's experiment would be the D itself. What would happen if the more efficient Sr or Ar were used? *Spectroscopy should be tried to see if EUV is present. *Why is Claytor strangely silent on the issue of neutrons. These should be evident and easy to detect? * CO2 added to the mix had a remarkable effect on the production of tritium. What does this mean? *What about gammas? Their lack favors the deuterino explanation. Possible conclusion: When tritium is found, it could be an indication that deuterino reactions have occurred and supplied the reactants, i.e. D+d > T or d+d> T. This could be further substantiated if spectroscopy demonstrated that Claytor's plasma was high in EUV. A good example of Claytor's work that is Web accessible: http://www.nde.lanl.gov/cf/iccf6ab.htm. TRITIUM PRODUCTION FROM PALLADIUM AND PALLADIUM ALLOYS T. N. Claytor, M. J. Schwab and D. G. Tuggle, Los Alamos National Laboratory Los Alamos, A number (22) of pure palladium samples and palladium alloys have been loaded with a deuterium or hydrogen plasma in a system that allows the instantaneous measurement of tritium. By carefully controlling the high pressure plasma conditions, the plasma can be constrained to only contact palladium surfaces and to only lightly sputter the palladium. Long run times (up to 200 h) result in an integration of the tritium and this, coupled with the high intrinsic sensitivity of the system( ~ 0.1nCi/l), enables the significance of the tritium measurement to be many sigma ( >10 ). In addition to the real time tritium measurement, the deuterium gas can be combined with oxygen, at the end of a run, resulting in water samples that were counted in a scintillation counter. The results of these confirmatory measurements of the tritium, in these water samples, agree quantitatively with the decrease in tritium as measured by the ion sensor. However, surprising concentrations (up to 1.5 x 106 dpm/ml) of tritium were found in several samples that had been exposed to a hydride inhibitor. We have continued to investigate the effect of hydrogen additions on the output of tritium in these types of experiments and find that hydrogen additions always suppress tritium production. We will show the difference in tritium generation rates between batches of annealed palladium, as received palladium and the palladium alloys (Rh, Co, Cu, Ni, Be, B, Li, Hf, Hg and Fe) of various concentrations to illustrate that tritium generation rate can vary greatly from alloy to alloy as well as within a specific alloy, dependent on concentration. Other metals (Pt, Hf, Ni, Nb, Ta, V, W, Zr) have also been run in the system as background samples or to determine if tritium could be detected in the gas analysis system. In nearly all cases they have produced results very close to background drift rates. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 23 22:05:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA09356; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:04:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:04:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 22:04:38 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"bcvly.0.6I2.fxhhx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 12:30:21 -0700 From: Bernard Haisch To: billb eskimo.com Subject: Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff Dear William, We are sending email to fellow SSE members to kindly ask you to visit the new website http://motionsciences.org Research on the connection between the zero-point field, inertia and gravitation that we have presented at numerous SSE meetings is now being sponsored, along with other advanced physics projects, by Motion Sciences, a non-profit scientific/humanitarian organization. We hope you will take a few minutes to visit the site, consider becoming a member or sponsor of the Motion Sciences community and pass this information along to friends and colleagues who might also be interested. Regards, Bernard Haisch & Hal Puthoff P.S. An advanced "flash enabled version" is used for the menus. If you have problems with the menus, just go back to the home page and click on the "without flash" option. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 07:58:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27035; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 07:56:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 07:56:57 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, William Beaty Subject: Re: Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff (fwd) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:07:08 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01092411070800.01211 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA26987 Resent-Message-ID: <"bJlWP1.0.Jc6.ucqhx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings All, Watch these guys. They are at it AGAIN!!!? Might not have to download the 'flash' worm, but Linux browsers only get a black page from it. Page is probably loaded with javascript that is meant to accomplish covertly what the flash tried arrogantly to do overtly. Just about every site on the net that is really worth something will load at least SOMETHING that can be seen, even a known cookie bender like Logitech or Microsoft. For info, my Linux browser views the world through an IP chains firewall from SuSE 7.2. All javascript is disabled, as are cookies and any and all other scripts. Of course, no direct (a)X controls (stealth programs) or other microsoft funny business allowed. For this reason so far I have been able to escape much digital problems coming from malicious servers. With over 20 years experience in computers, I KNOW that a decent presentation can be made on a web page without doing whatever these folks are doing to keep their page away from Linux systems and Linux native browsers. Can't be real scientists either. A large proportion of scientific sites that I have visited are served up by Apache, and we ALL know what THAT is implemented on. They can do it right and honest. Can YOU!? Standing Bear On Sunday 23 September 2001 22:04, William Beaty wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 12:30:21 -0700 > From: Bernard Haisch > To: billb eskimo.com > Subject: Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff > > Dear William, > > We are sending email to fellow SSE members to kindly ask you to visit > the new website http://motionsciences.org > > Research on the connection between the zero-point field, inertia and > gravitation that we have presented at numerous SSE meetings is now > being sponsored, along with other advanced physics projects, by > Motion Sciences, a non-profit scientific/humanitarian organization. > We hope you will take a few minutes to visit the site, consider > becoming a member or sponsor of the Motion Sciences community and > pass this information along to friends and colleagues who might also > be interested. > > Regards, > > Bernard Haisch & Hal Puthoff > > P.S. An advanced "flash enabled version" is used for the menus. If > you have problems with the menus, just go back to the home page and > click on the "without flash" option. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 08:06:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31401; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:04:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:04:53 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:05:11 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: William Beaty Subject: Re: Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff (fwd) Message-ID: <20010924160511.A90187 tao.org.uk> References: <01092411070800.01211@tyrannosaur> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SUOF0GtieIMvvwua" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01092411070800.01211 tyrannosaur>; from rockcast@net-link.net on Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:07:08AM -0700 Resent-Message-ID: <"p-Yv73.0.Zg7.Lkqhx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --SUOF0GtieIMvvwua Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:07:08AM -0700, Standing Bear wrote: > are doing to keep their page away from Linux systems and Linux > native browsers. Can't be real scientists either. A large=20 > proportion of scientific sites that I have visited are served up > by Apache, and we ALL know what THAT is implemented on. > They can do it right and honest. Can YOU!? Standing Bear, The world is full of more than Linux. Apache is developed on and runs on a multitude of platforms, not just Linux (although Linux has gained a large popularity over the last few years). I for one am a FreeBSD developer (www.freebsd.org), and I know other Apache developers who develop on BSD platforms (FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, etc). =46rom the release notes, Apache currently supports the following platforms: o Out-of-the-box supported platforms are: - Linux - SunOS - UnixWare - Darwin/Mac OS - FreeBSD - Solaris - AIX - OpenStep/Mach - OpenBSD - IRIX - SCO - DYNIX/ptx - NetBSD - HPUX - ReliantUNIX - BSDI - Digital Unix - DGUX and yes, there is a version for Windows also. Joe (fed up that linux blinds people to the other operating systems that exist). --SUOF0GtieIMvvwua Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjuvS6YACgkQXVIcjOaxUBa/8QCeNuk3Y1vj0zb5hgpUemf0CP3b l6IAoL81uC6JnpgwLdVPEkaebBfgmxkJ =i09a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SUOF0GtieIMvvwua-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 08:31:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA11115; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:30:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:30:22 -0700 Message-ID: <005c01c1450e$4b165ce0$d6181ad8 oemcomputer> From: "bruce meland" To: Cc: "Remy C." , "Lynn C. Loomis" , References: Subject: Re: footage of "celebrating Palestinians" real after all Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:23:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"crAUF3.0.Wj2.E6rhx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: regardless if this was a mind viris the corporate media does infect the media with their agenda much whic is not in the best interest of the peoples of the US or the world. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: William Beaty To: Cc: Remy C. ; Lynn C. Loomis ; Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 10:58 PM Subject: footage of "celebrating Palestinians" real after all > > Just on memepool.com... > > > On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, bruce meland wrote: > >>Forward this on! Corporate media is SO manipulative- and the sad > >>thing is, it works!. . . please spread the word. . . > >> > This was written by a student in Brazil, and sent to Indymedia. > > > This turns out to be an untrue rumor. The original author explains: > > http://uk.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=11546 > > And also it's discussed on snopes "urban legends", where it is pointed > out that the audio track on that footage mentions praise for Bin Laden. > > > As usual, when an email message says "be an important person, forward this > message to all your friends," it turns out to be a mind-virus. > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 09:34:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA07573; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:33:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:33:41 -0700 From: "xplorer" To: "Freenrg-L Eskimo. Com" , "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" Subject: Palladium/Platinum Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:37:30 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"GEHpx2.0.Cs1.a1shx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi folks. Just out of lurk mode to see if anyone here has any bulletproof method of determining that a chunk of metal is palladium (pure) ?... I understand that I can verify platinum by immersing it in 'aqua regia', but aside from trying it in a CF cell I can't see how I could verify a piece of mtal to be palladium. I don't have access to any fancy equipment at the moment, just simple tools like electrical meters, basic chemicals, etc. Without destroying a sample, which will cost me more than I can afford to lose, I would like to find a basic method for doing this. I realize than one anchorpoint would be melting point (performed in inert gas, of course) - I suppose this would be one part of the check, but what other non-reactive checks would you recommend ? I ask this because the people I want to purchase from may not know how to identify it either, except as a sales pitch. cheers from the objective... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 10:01:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21266; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:01:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:01:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3BAF665E.43DAACF4 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:59:10 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: footage of "celebrating Palestinians" real after all References: <005c01c1450e$4b165ce0$d6181ad8@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MQvIQ1.0.3C5.WRshx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: According some usenet posts, the video that CNN show first is not the same as one it replayed continually then after. hamdi From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 10:05:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA22740; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:03:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:03:33 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:58:43 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Palladium/Platinum To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <002e01c1451a$2bc547a0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: Resent-Message-ID: <"CFQXB3.0.CZ5.aTshx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "xplorer" > a bulletproof method of determining that a chunk > of metal is palladium.... but what other non-reactive > checks would you recommend ? If I you know that the sample is either palladium or platinum or some combination of only those two, then there is a simple bulletproof way to tell. Perhaps this will get you started, although I would do a web check to verify this. 1) Use the sample to displace water, and determine the exact weight of the water which is displaced 2) Weigh the sample 3) Determine the density of the sample by comparing its weight to the water 4) Using a relative density chart, plug in Pd and Pt. with a little algebra, you can get an approximation of the relative proportions. Of course, this only works if you know that nothing else is in there, and with the noble metals that may not be the case as they are often naturally mixed and difficult to separate. Pt is much denser than Pd in a ratio of ~21 to 12. If the question is either one or the other, you can almost questimate it by feel. Pd is like lead whereas Pt seems about twice as dense. Jones From rockcast net-link.net Mon Sep 24 07:56:54 2001 Received: from mail5.mx.voyager.net (mail5.mx.voyager.net [216.93.66.204]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26987; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 07:56:52 -0700 Received: from tyrannosaur (d135.as0.strg.mi.voyager.net [207.89.169.9]) by mail5.mx.voyager.net (8.11.6/8.10.2) with SMTP id f8OEtZf59472; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, William Beaty Subject: Re: Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff (fwd) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:07:08 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01092411070800.01211 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA26987 Status: RO X-Status: Greetings All, Watch these guys. They are at it AGAIN!!!? Might not have to download the 'flash' worm, but Linux browsers only get a black page from it. Page is probably loaded with javascript that is meant to accomplish covertly what the flash tried arrogantly to do overtly. Just about every site on the net that is really worth something will load at least SOMETHING that can be seen, even a known cookie bender like Logitech or Microsoft. For info, my Linux browser views the world through an IP chains firewall from SuSE 7.2. All javascript is disabled, as are cookies and any and all other scripts. Of course, no direct (a)X controls (stealth programs) or other microsoft funny business allowed. For this reason so far I have been able to escape much digital problems coming from malicious servers. With over 20 years experience in computers, I KNOW that a decent presentation can be made on a web page without doing whatever these folks are doing to keep their page away from Linux systems and Linux native browsers. Can't be real scientists either. A large proportion of scientific sites that I have visited are served up by Apache, and we ALL know what THAT is implemented on. They can do it right and honest. Can YOU!? Standing Bear On Sunday 23 September 2001 22:04, William Beaty wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 12:30:21 -0700 > From: Bernard Haisch > To: billb eskimo.com > Subject: Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff > > Dear William, > > We are sending email to fellow SSE members to kindly ask you to visit > the new website http://motionsciences.org > > Research on the connection between the zero-point field, inertia and > gravitation that we have presented at numerous SSE meetings is now > being sponsored, along with other advanced physics projects, by > Motion Sciences, a non-profit scientific/humanitarian organization. > We hope you will take a few minutes to visit the site, consider > becoming a member or sponsor of the Motion Sciences community and > pass this information along to friends and colleagues who might also > be interested. > > Regards, > > Bernard Haisch & Hal Puthoff > > P.S. An advanced "flash enabled version" is used for the menus. If > you have problems with the menus, just go back to the home page and > click on the "without flash" option. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 10:39:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA04002; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:33:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:33:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3BAF6E87.AC954A4D mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:34:00 -0400 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Palladium/Platinum References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EmM492.0.S-.Hvshx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Use specific gravity....around 20 for palladium.... Compare weight with weight of water it displaces.... Hope I remembered this right....... hope this helps.....steve xplorer wrote: > > Hi folks. > > Just out of lurk mode to see if anyone here has > any bulletproof method of determining that a chunk > of metal is palladium (pure) ?... > > I understand that I can verify platinum by immersing it in > 'aqua regia', but aside from trying it in a CF cell > I can't see how I could verify a piece of mtal to be palladium. > > I don't have access to any fancy equipment at the moment, > just simple tools like electrical meters, basic chemicals, etc. > > Without destroying a sample, which will cost me more than > I can afford to lose, I would like to find a basic method for > doing this. > > I realize than one anchorpoint would be melting point > (performed in inert gas, of course) - I suppose this > would be one part of the check, but what other non-reactive > checks would you recommend ? > > I ask this because the people I want to purchase from > may not know how to identify it either, except as a sales pitch. > > cheers from the objective... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 11:35:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00833; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:32:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:32:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3BAF7C7A.B7737653 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:33:30 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Palladium/Platinum References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-wx6b1.0.uC.Hnthx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remember EUREKA? xplorer wrote: > Hi folks. > > Just out of lurk mode to see if anyone here has > any bulletproof method of determining that a chunk > of metal is palladium (pure) ?... > > I understand that I can verify platinum by immersing it in > 'aqua regia', but aside from trying it in a CF cell > I can't see how I could verify a piece of mtal to be palladium. > > I don't have access to any fancy equipment at the moment, > just simple tools like electrical meters, basic chemicals, etc. > > Without destroying a sample, which will cost me more than > I can afford to lose, I would like to find a basic method for > doing this. > > I realize than one anchorpoint would be melting point > (performed in inert gas, of course) - I suppose this > would be one part of the check, but what other non-reactive > checks would you recommend ? > > I ask this because the people I want to purchase from > may not know how to identify it either, except as a sales pitch. > > cheers from the objective... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 11:50:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08759; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:49:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:49:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3BAF7298.E348347 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:51:43 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Palladium/Platinum References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"e15Lb2.0.k82.W0uhx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You can tell if a piece of metal is mostly Pd using the following methods. However, without a more detailed analysis, you can not tell if it is pure. Nonmagnetic, Density = 12 g/cm3, Will turn blue-black when heated to ~400-500°C in air but will become silver at higher temperatures, Does not dissolve in HNO3 or HCl alone but will be etched in Aqua Regia, Is soft and easily bent or scratched after being heated. Good luck, Ed Storms xplorer wrote: > Hi folks. > > Just out of lurk mode to see if anyone here has > any bulletproof method of determining that a chunk > of metal is palladium (pure) ?... > > I understand that I can verify platinum by immersing it in > 'aqua regia', but aside from trying it in a CF cell > I can't see how I could verify a piece of mtal to be palladium. > > I don't have access to any fancy equipment at the moment, > just simple tools like electrical meters, basic chemicals, etc. > > Without destroying a sample, which will cost me more than > I can afford to lose, I would like to find a basic method for > doing this. > > I realize than one anchorpoint would be melting point > (performed in inert gas, of course) - I suppose this > would be one part of the check, but what other non-reactive > checks would you recommend ? > > I ask this because the people I want to purchase from > may not know how to identify it either, except as a sales pitch. > > cheers from the objective... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 12:32:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24144; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 12:16:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 12:16:54 -0700 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff (fwd) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:17:53 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3bb08696.213131236 mail.midiowa.net> References: <01092411070800.01211@tyrannosaur> In-Reply-To: <01092411070800.01211 tyrannosaur> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA24107 Resent-Message-ID: <"hnUFx3.0.Av5.bQuhx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:07:08 -0700, Standing Bear wrote: >Greetings All, > Watch these guys. They are at it AGAIN!!!? Might not have >to download the 'flash' worm, but Linux browsers only get a >black page from it. Try this URL: http://motionsciences.org/index_html.html?withoutFlash=1 -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 12:36:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27165; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.1.20010924133715.00b7df18 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:48:50 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Dr. Mitchell Swartz" Subject: Re: Palladium/Platinum In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"uSL5j2.0.Ke6.2iuhx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If you can ascertain the sample dimensions accurately, and if you are lucky enough to have a sample with good geometry, four terminal electrical conductivity measurement is simple, determinative in some instances and nondestructive. Check EE text or Corrosion Control (Uhlig) handbook. Dr. Mitchell Swartz ========================================== At 11:37 PM 9/24/2001 +0700, you wrote: >Hi folks. > >Just out of lurk mode to see if anyone here has > any bulletproof method of determining that a chunk > of metal is palladium (pure) ?... > >I understand that I can verify platinum by immersing it in > 'aqua regia', but aside from trying it in a CF cell > I can't see how I could verify a piece of mtal to be palladium. > >I don't have access to any fancy equipment at the moment, > just simple tools like electrical meters, basic chemicals, etc. > >Without destroying a sample, which will cost me more than > I can afford to lose, I would like to find a basic method for > doing this. > >I realize than one anchorpoint would be melting point > (performed in inert gas, of course) - I suppose this > would be one part of the check, but what other non-reactive > checks would you recommend ? > >I ask this because the people I want to purchase from > may not know how to identify it either, except as a sales pitch. > >cheers from the objective... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 13:13:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13711; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:12:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:12:38 -0700 Sender: jack granger.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3BAF7AA8.BAD686C centurytel.net> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:25:44 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff (fwd) References: <01092411070800.01211@tyrannosaur> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xb" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xb" Resent-Message-ID: <"mFlv52.0.8M3.sEvhx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Standing Bear wrote regarding Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff: ... Linux browsers only get a black page from it. ... Just about every site on the net that is really worth something will load at least SOMETHING that can be seen, Hi Standing Bear, I also run with Java and Java Script off, (and I link the cookie file to /dev/null.) After getting the black screen, I turned Java Script on and got a page of Java Script -- very funny. Anyway, I'm not going back there again. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 14:41:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23058; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:39:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:39:52 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3BAF7AA8.BAD686C centurytel.net> References: <01092411070800.01211 tyrannosaur> <3BAF7AA8.BAD686C@centurytel.net> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:33:57 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff (fwd) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"YSLRB2.0.6e5.eWwhx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jack - > Anyway, I'm not going back there again. Me neither. I bypassed the flash crap, clicked in a little bit, and found myself stuck on some frame-infested page, browser back button useless. I consider that a form of sabotage. Perdition to the site designer. It's horrible! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 20:39:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA23539; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:36:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:36:01 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Josef Karthauser Subject: Re: Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff (fwd) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:46:13 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: William Beaty References: <01092411070800.01211@tyrannosaur> <20010924160511.A90187@tao.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <20010924160511.A90187 tao.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01092423461300.01207 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA23441 Resent-Message-ID: <"6jcfm1.0.Tl5.Wk_hx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello All, Please excuse the bear for sometimes forgetting that Apache was originally a UNIX program, and as such certainly runs on many flavors of it, including Linux. I don't know, but there seem to be many similarities to Linux and UNIX contained in the Apple Macintosh operating systems as well......maybe a common genesis? Standing Bear It is disturbing that the windowscentric web in some ways wants and expects all browsers to accept windows crap and sucker baits from internet fish mongers and corporate hooligans. Yes, UNIX and Linux browsers are immune to a lot of it, so if we cant be cheated or spied on or trojan horse f_____, then we are ignored. On Monday 24 September 2001 08:05, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:07:08AM -0700, Standing Bear wrote: > > are doing to keep their page away from Linux systems and Linux > > native browsers. Can't be real scientists either. A large > > proportion of scientific sites that I have visited are served up > > by Apache, and we ALL know what THAT is implemented on. > > They can do it right and honest. Can YOU!? > > Standing Bear, > > The world is full of more than Linux. Apache is developed on and > runs on a multitude of platforms, not just Linux (although Linux > has gained a large popularity over the last few years). I for one > am a FreeBSD developer (www.freebsd.org), and I know other Apache > developers who develop on BSD platforms (FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, > etc). > > From the release notes, Apache currently supports the following > platforms: > > o Out-of-the-box supported platforms are: > - Linux - SunOS - UnixWare - Darwin/Mac OS > - FreeBSD - Solaris - AIX - OpenStep/Mach > - OpenBSD - IRIX - SCO - DYNIX/ptx > - NetBSD - HPUX - ReliantUNIX > - BSDI - Digital Unix - DGUX > > and yes, there is a version for Windows also. > > Joe (fed up that linux blinds people to the other operating systems that > exist). > ---------------------------------------- Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; charset="us-ascii"; name="Attachment: 1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: ---------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 20:52:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA30967; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:51:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:51:24 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Taylor J. Smith" Subject: Re: Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff (fwd) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:01:40 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <01092411070800.01211@tyrannosaur> <3BAF7AA8.BAD686C@centurytel.net> In-Reply-To: <3BAF7AA8.BAD686C centurytel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01092500014002.01207 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA30934 Resent-Message-ID: <"DupCQ1.0.iZ7.yy_hx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Monday 24 September 2001 11:25, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > Standing Bear wrote regarding > Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff: > > ... Linux browsers only get a > black page from it. > > ... Just about every site on the net that is really > worth something will load at least SOMETHING that can be seen, > > Hi Standing Bear, > > I also run with Java and Java Script off, (and I link > the cookie file to /dev/null.) After getting the black > screen, I turned Java Script on and got a page of > Java Script -- very funny. > > Anyway, I'm not going back there again. > > Jack Smith > > > > Jack I tried it once with a windows browser from another computer on my home network. Guess what? Got a page even with javascript turned off. What a SURPRISE that is?!! I also found out that this site is a real cookie bender. At least 3 cookies per page. Avoiding 'flash' is a pain in the butt....a royal one. The opening page is all black, and the link to avoid flash is dark violet, almost black, as if an attempt was being made to conceal it here. And that is not all. At least two direct X controls are operating on each and every page. These controls, had they been agreed to, probably would have led to a series of scripts, more cookies, and still more 'controls' down the line. This is the only web page that I have ever encountered where you could not push the 'back' button on your browser. The browser locks up if you try (windows 98). I do not know what Millenium would do with it, but then a operating environment that silently calls microsoft on any available internet connection each and every time the machine containing it is booted cannot be trusted any further than a man could throw Windsor Castle with one hand. On the other hand, the concepts alluded to in the pages that they were willing to display seemed in a general way to show at least hints of some kind of scientific breakthrough in basic physics. Whether this was meant to mislead possible investors with a figurative 'gold brick', I cannot say. If true, they should not be trying to sell it; it should be classified by the government with at the highest level, for this technology has vast possibilities for military use. I say that as one who has spent over 10 years as an engineer for the United States Air Force. There is a game of some kind here. I just do not know what. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 21:33:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA15502; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:32:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:32:33 -0700 Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 05:32:47 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Standing Bear Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, William Beaty Subject: Re: Motion Sciences from Haisch & Puthoff (fwd) Message-ID: <20010925053247.A38233 tao.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Josef Karthauser , Standing Bear , vortex-l@eskimo.com, William Beaty References: <01092411070800.01211@tyrannosaur> <20010924160511.A90187@tao.org.uk> <01092423461300.01207@tyrannosaur> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01092423461300.01207 tyrannosaur>; from rockcast@net-link.net on Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:46:13PM -0700 Resent-Message-ID: <"cpzQt.0.5o3.WZ0ix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:46:13PM -0700, Standing Bear wrote: > Hello All, > Please excuse the bear for sometimes forgetting that > Apache was originally a UNIX program, and as such certainly > runs on many flavors of it, including Linux. I don't know, but > there seem to be many similarities to Linux and UNIX contained > in the Apple Macintosh operating systems as well......maybe a > common genesis? Especially now as Mac OS-X has been released. It borrows very heavily from Mach and FreeBSD, and is basically a UNIX under the bonnet. >=20 > Standing Bear > It is disturbing that the windowscentric web in some ways > wants and expects all browsers to accept windows crap and > sucker baits from internet fish mongers and corporate hooligans. > Yes, UNIX and Linux browsers are immune to a lot of it, so if we > cant be cheated or spied on or trojan horse f_____, then we are > ignored. Yes. Virus's as well. It makes me sick that usoft have caused people to fear every mail attachment, whether executable or not. The NIMDA virus is only a threat because it makes use of a bug in the MIME attachment parsing code in the Windows operating system. :( I wish they'd get their act together and stop giving the Internet a bad name. Joe --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjuwCO4ACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZnPwCgkJ2GrF4Loul1ZgiVXtMaZbzx d98AoJEvnQFBmyOJ80UwQ7vlVR+zinBD =TlDV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 25 09:45:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA08615; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:43:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:43:46 -0700 Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:38:59 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: New Mills' hearsay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <001601c145e0$9416d640$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"bgxE33.0.L62.2HBix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Let me apologize in advance to vortex readers for a number of recent long-winded postings (some might characterize them as rantings) many of which are grasping with the proposition that the hydrino work of Randell Mills offers a lot of unappreciated insight about what is going on in Pd-D CF. At least it is not off-topic. If not explain CF, then Mills' work may address many of the issues more intuitively than the alternative theories, which BTW, recently seem to have coagulated around the notion (as expressed by E.Storms and R. Tessien) that CF is really a just a subset of traditional physics - applied to situations where atomic level interactions, such as high field gradients, or localized convergence (sonofusion), can somehow substitute for actual heat. This is the little problem which is know euphemistically as the "missing ~200 million degrees" i.e. the threshold of D+D fusion. Even as I type the words, I can't help but smile at not only the absurdity of these rationalizations, but moreover at my own willingness to offer an equally preposterous alternative. >From the lack of any broad response to these recent pro-Mills postings, it is possible that either the previous points have not been well-made by me, or they are so dead wrong that no comment is worth the time - or perhaps that the underlying issues are still too complex and muddied for even normally open-minded vortexians to grapple with them just yet. On the off-chance that it is the latter, here is some further speculation based on new information. Let's admit up front that the quality of the new info is "less than hearsay." In this mornings mail comes something far different to add to the existing turbidity. It originates from a private message from a colleague who has recently visited the BLP facility. It gave me a seismic jolt of semi-epiphany when I first read it, but now on a calmer reappraisal, it is most likely just a coincidental situation with the result that this writer now intends to make a mountain out of a mole-hill. Let me backtrack several days in this line of inquiry (that which is devoted to placing CF into context with Mills hydrino - so that the operative mechanism becomes sub-ground-state hydrogen, which could fuse far more easily than ground-state). It has evolved into a question of "maybe Mills got it half wrong" also, and that his energy hole, i.e. the catalytic property that cause hydrogen to shrink below ground state, is both an abstraction and also a physical space of certain dimensions, such that it incorporates a resonance of the well-known hydrogen spectral line of 27.2 eV. Other evidence, from disparate sources, indicates that there is something special about the ~50 nm wavelength. Not only that, perhaps the shrinkage below ground state is not even exothermic, by itself! >From the early days of P&F, it has been known that there was a long delay from the time a cell started running until when it became OU, and because it seemed logical at the time, everybody began saying that this delay was due to the necessity of "loading." Yet, when we look at other related fields such as the well known technology of hydrogen filtration, then we can see that Pd alloys (such as Pd-Ag) "load" incredibly fast. A hydrogen filter will pass hundreds of cubic feet of hydrogen gas from a mixed flow almost instantaneously. This does not mean "full" loading preceded it, only that massive loading is very very fast. Add to that, the first knee-jerk reaction to Mills theory from many observers is -wow, the shrinkage that Mills say is exothermic should be endothermic, not exothermic. Could it be that the main thing that Mills got right was the cosmological evidence that the shrinkage does indeed occur? Could it be that the "delay" in CF is not for loading at all, or at least not "just for" loading, but also that this delay represents the time necessary to convert a large proportion of the D2 into D-d, which for the sake of clarity (or is that obfuscation) can be called deuterino deuteride. And could it also be true that at least the first step of hydrogen shrinkage is indeed endothermic? Because of these tentative realizations, and to the extent that much of the excess heat in Pd-D systems can be shown to derive from putative fusion, combined with the fact that there is no logical pathway for fusion unless the reactants are drastically modified - then it is possible that catalytic fusion must be occurring not in the original reactants but from something that is derivative from the original reactants and which has been manufactured in situ, i.e. sub-ground-state deuterium. When you make that leap, and accept the notion that cold fusion is largely the fusion of sub-ground state reactants, then all of these things could begin to fit together nicely until you return to BLP and ask then, where is the fusion there? Let me see if I can clarify this a little better. Since it just dawned on me this morning that there is a certain previously unexplored scenario that can "explain it all" and since I haven't had the chance to ruminate on the details of that scenario for very long, I'll just throw out the basics and let the keener minds out there have a go at it. To make a long story somewhat shorter, the new information that comes my way is some hushed conversation overheard at BLP about boron. Boron, isn't that curious, now why should that be? It could just have been idle chit-chat (nuclear nerds like to talk about boron just like computer nerds like to talk about bandwidth) OR it could offer some insight into why BLP has not been able to get a product to market yet. Have they discovered that after some period of operation, their reactor itself becomes activated and that this radioactivity would indeed, severely restrict the marketability of the product? They certainly wouldn't want to let this out into the public for several reasons, such as NRC licensing and proprietary concerns. But on a deeper level, could it indicate that they got the whole thing partially wrong, ab initio? If they got it partially wrong from the start, and if the first stage of hydrogen shrinkage is endothermic, then what is going on to explain the fact that they have clear OU (if you believe their results). And why would you need boron? Well the only thing that I can come up with on short notice is that in a Mills reactor, where you have hydrogen instead of deuterium as the reactant, is that the energy producing reaction is not just the n>2 shrinkage itself, but also the conversion of the shrinking proton into a neutron, at some level of shrinkage. Maybe all the energy comes from n>2 shrinkage, and that in the final step some of the excess is recouped when the neutron is formed unavoidably. Maybe, even...this all plays into how neutron stars are formed. Yes I realize that this reaction, p+e >n is said by some to be exothermic but could be endothermic instead, that is unclear, OR that a neutron is just three quarks and not necessarily a proton which has absorbed an electron. But how else could you explain neutron activation, if that is indeed BLP's current problem (big IF). And remember the work of Conte in a past issue of IE? Some observers no doubt wrote him off as a nut case when he suggested that p+e>n is not only possible but that he had done it and that it even could be a likely candidate for OU. I guess that only one thing is now clear. The writer of this rant is not at all reluctant to piggy-back one unproven hypothesis on top of another. However (to continue with nearly forgotten Latin) does that piggy-back process lead one to reductio ab absurdum or QED quo erat demonstratum? Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 25 11:41:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15944; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:39:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:39:06 -0700 From: ConexTom aol.com Message-ID: <33.1b73652a.28e22961 aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:39:29 EDT Subject: NASA, & Private Companies To: prj mail.msen.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: ConexTom aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_33.1b73652a.28e22961_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 Resent-Message-ID: <"xdqg12.0.2v3.9zCix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_33.1b73652a.28e22961_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NASA, & Private Companies Since the 1970's and the 1980's, NASA, and private companies have reduced their public image. It is important that the general public has an image of companies, and public agencies such as NASA, which encourage ethical futures for Earth in relation to space technologies publicly, along the lines of the Star Trek image, for the future of Earth. Since many of the space programs presently, are classified, by the government, & kept secret, and NASA is down sizing publicly, then the general public may have a negative and suspicious image of space technologies. Even the media, presently encourages violent and negative images of space technologies, rather than the Star Trek image. Consequently, the general public, may distrust the government, and support other organizations and E.T.'s, in relation to space technologies. If the government supports NASA, and private companies, as well as the media, to encourage space technologies, publicly, the general pubic, may trust the government more and support the future of the government. By now the U.S. should have dozens of John Glenn Hero images, to encourage, the space program publicly, and presently we have none- we just have 1 space hero from the 1960's and that is it. The same principle applies with corruption and secrecy in governments. Many secret organizations believe that they need to use corruption and secrecy to keep their power, when they may actually lose their power, since the general public no longer may trust the public image of the government, and the secret organizations, which may be exactly what the enemies of a government or of a secret organization may want to have happen. The government and secret organizations should also reduce corruption, and secrecy in some areas, especially the space program, to increase their chances of success in the future. Respectfully, Thomas Clark tom rhfweb.com www.rhfweb.com --part1_33.1b73652a.28e22961_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NASA, & Private Companies

Since the 1970's and the 1980's, NASA, and private companies
have reduced their public image. It is important that the general
public has an image of companies, and public agencies such as
NASA, which encourage ethical futures for Earth in relation to
space technologies publicly, along the lines of the Star Trek
image, for the future of Earth.  

Since many of the space programs presently, are classified, by
the government, & kept secret, and NASA is down sizing
publicly, then the general public may have a negative and
suspicious image of space technologies. Even the media,
presently encourages violent and negative images of space
technologies, rather than the Star Trek image. Consequently,
the general public, may distrust the government, and support
other organizations and E.T.'s, in relation to space technologies.
If the government supports NASA, and private companies, as
well as the media, to encourage space technologies, publicly,
the general pubic, may trust the government more and support
the future of the government. By now the U.S. should have
dozens of John Glenn  Hero images, to encourage, the space
program publicly, and presently we have none- we just have 1
space hero from the 1960's and that is it.

The same principle applies with corruption and secrecy in
governments. Many secret organizations believe that they need
to use corruption and secrecy to keep their power, when they
may actually lose their power, since the general public no longer
may trust the public image of the government, and the secret
organizations, which may be exactly what the enemies of a
government or of a secret organization may want to have
happen. The government and secret organizations should  also
reduce corruption, and secrecy in some areas, especially the
space program,  to increase their chances of success in the
future.


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com

--part1_33.1b73652a.28e22961_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 25 12:18:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04679; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:17:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:17:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3BB0CACA.C3E3ADF5 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:20:24 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Mills' hearsay References: <001601c145e0$9416d640$aa69fea9 cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2VzgF1.0.r81.DXDix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I appreciate the originality of your analysis. However, I suggest a person needs to be very careful which observations are to be used to support the Mills effect. Many observations have very prosaic explanations, the rejection of which is as hard to accept as is the proposed unique explanation. As a result, the difficulty of acceptance has how been squared. I have added some comments to the body of the text as well. Ed Jones Beene wrote: > Let me apologize in advance to vortex readers for a number of recent > long-winded postings (some might characterize them as rantings) many of > which are grasping with the proposition that the hydrino work of Randell > Mills offers a lot of unappreciated insight about what is going on in Pd-D > CF. At least it is not off-topic. > > If not explain CF, then Mills' work may address many of the issues more > intuitively than the alternative theories, which BTW, recently seem to have > coagulated around the notion (as expressed by E.Storms and R. Tessien) that > CF is really a just a subset of traditional physics - applied to situations > where atomic level interactions, such as high field gradients, or localized > convergence (sonofusion), can somehow substitute for actual heat. This is > the little problem which is know euphemistically as the "missing ~200 > million degrees" i.e. the threshold of D+D fusion. Even as I type the words, > I can't help but smile at not only the absurdity of these rationalizations, > but moreover at my own willingness to offer an equally preposterous > alternative. If you assume that Coulomb barrier penetration can only be accomplished using brute force, then "200 million degrees" is missing. However, nature always has subtle methods available. While the Mills effect might be one of them, dozens of other mechanisms have been proposed. Regardless of which method is proposed, it must not only overcome the barrier, but it must distribute the resulting energy to many atoms within a short time. I do not see how the Mills effect can do this. > > > >From the lack of any broad response to these recent pro-Mills postings, it > is possible that either the previous points have not been well-made by me, > or they are so dead wrong that no comment is worth the time - or perhaps > that the underlying issues are still too complex and muddied for even > normally open-minded vortexians to grapple with them just yet. On the > off-chance that it is the latter, here is some further speculation based on > new information. Let's admit up front that the quality of the new info is > "less than hearsay." > > In this mornings mail comes something far different to add to the existing > turbidity. It originates from a private message from a colleague who has > recently visited the BLP facility. It gave me a seismic jolt of > semi-epiphany when I first read it, but now on a calmer reappraisal, it is > most likely just a coincidental situation with the result that this writer > now intends to make a mountain out of a mole-hill. > > Let me backtrack several days in this line of inquiry (that which is devoted > to placing CF into context with Mills hydrino - so that the operative > mechanism becomes sub-ground-state hydrogen, which could fuse far more > easily than ground-state). It has evolved into a question of "maybe Mills > got it half wrong" also, and that his energy hole, i.e. the catalytic > property that cause hydrogen to shrink below ground state, is both an > abstraction and also a physical space of certain dimensions, such that it > incorporates a resonance of the well-known hydrogen spectral line of 27.2 > eV. Other evidence, from disparate sources, indicates that there is > something special about the ~50 nm wavelength. Not only that, perhaps the > shrinkage below ground state is not even exothermic, by itself! > > >From the early days of P&F, it has been known that there was a long delay > from the time a cell started running until when it became OU, and because it > seemed logical at the time, everybody began saying that this delay was due > to the necessity of "loading." Yet, when we look at other related fields > such as the well known technology of hydrogen filtration, then we can see > that Pd alloys (such as Pd-Ag) "load" incredibly fast. A hydrogen filter > will pass hundreds of cubic feet of hydrogen gas from a mixed flow almost > instantaneously. This does not mean "full" loading preceded it, only that > massive loading is very very fast. Loading of bulk Pd is fast at first. However, the rate approaches zero as the composition approaches an upper limit. The upper limit is characteristic of the individual piece of Pd and how it was treated. If the upper limit is less than the critical composition required for the effect to occur, nothing happens. This behavior has been demonstrated by several well done studies. In addition, the bulk composition on which your conclusion is based, is not the important variable. The surface composition determines whether the effect will occur and this composition slowly changes because Li, Pt and other impurities are being slowly plated on the surface, thereby changing the chemical properties of the surface. If instead, as you propose, this time is being used to generate deuterino deuteride, why then would some samples that have achieved high bulk compositions not all show the anomalous effects? Why is the effect so difficult to produce? In addition, when finely divided Pd is placed on the surface of Pt, anomalous heat is produced immediately, without any delay. How would you explain this observation using your model? > > > Add to that, the first knee-jerk reaction to Mills theory from many > observers is -wow, the shrinkage that Mills say is exothermic should be > endothermic, not exothermic. Could it be that the main thing that Mills got > right was the cosmological evidence that the shrinkage does indeed occur? > Could it be that the "delay" in CF is not for loading at all, or at least > not "just for" loading, but also that this delay represents the time > necessary to convert a large proportion of the D2 into D-d, which for the > sake of clarity (or is that obfuscation) can be called deuterino deuteride. > And could it also be true that at least the first step of hydrogen shrinkage > is indeed endothermic? Calorimetric studies would detect this loss of energy as deuterino deuteride is formed during the loading process. This is not seen. Loading is endothermic, but the amount has been measured and is consistent with the thermodynamics of the Pd-D system. > > > Because of these tentative realizations, and to the extent that much of the > excess heat in Pd-D systems can be shown to derive from putative fusion, > combined with the fact that there is no logical pathway for fusion unless > the reactants are drastically modified - then it is possible that catalytic > fusion must be occurring not in the original reactants but from something > that is derivative from the original reactants and which has been > manufactured in situ, i.e. sub-ground-state deuterium. When you make that > leap, and accept the notion that cold fusion is largely the fusion of > sub-ground state reactants, then all of these things could begin to fit > together nicely until you return to BLP and ask then, where is the fusion > there? > > Let me see if I can clarify this a little better. Since it just dawned on me > this morning that there is a certain previously unexplored scenario that can > "explain it all" and since I haven't had the chance to ruminate on the > details of that scenario for very long, I'll just throw out the basics and > let the keener minds out there have a go at it. > > To make a long story somewhat shorter, the new information that comes my way > is some hushed conversation overheard at BLP about boron. Boron, isn't that > curious, now why should that be? > > It could just have been idle chit-chat (nuclear nerds like to talk about > boron just like computer nerds like to talk about bandwidth) OR it could > offer some insight into why BLP has not been able to get a product to market > yet. Have they discovered that after some period of operation, their reactor > itself becomes activated and that this radioactivity would indeed, severely > restrict the marketability of the product? They certainly wouldn't want to > let this out into the public for several reasons, such as NRC licensing and > proprietary concerns. But on a deeper level, could it indicate that they got > the whole thing partially wrong, ab initio? Neutron generation is easy when an electric discharge is made to occur in D2 gas. This is normal fusion. While it can generate significant neutron flux, the generated energy is small, hence of no practical value. I suggest Mills is experiencing this secondary reaction. > > > If they got it partially wrong from the start, and if the first stage of > hydrogen shrinkage is endothermic, then what is going on to explain the fact > that they have clear OU (if you believe their results). And why would you > need boron? Well the only thing that I can come up with on short notice is > that in a Mills reactor, where you have hydrogen instead of deuterium as the > reactant, is that the energy producing reaction is not just the n>2 > shrinkage itself, but also the conversion of the shrinking proton into a > neutron, at some level of shrinkage. Maybe all the energy comes from n>2 > shrinkage, and that in the final step some of the excess is recouped when > the neutron is formed unavoidably. Maybe, even...this all plays into how > neutron stars are formed. > > Yes I realize that this reaction, p+e >n is said by some to be exothermic > but could be endothermic instead, that is unclear, OR that a neutron is just > three quarks and not necessarily a proton which has absorbed an electron. > But how else could you explain neutron activation, if that is indeed BLP's > current problem (big IF). And remember the work of Conte in a past issue of > IE? Some observers no doubt wrote him off as a nut case when he suggested > that p+e>n is not only possible but that he had done it and that it even > could be a likely candidate for OU. Neutron formation is endothermic. This is not a matter for debate. If this were not so, the neutron would be stable and it would not decay into a proton, an energetic electron and a neutrino, a process that is well documented. If a person claims to generate energy by forming a neutron, then this neutron is not like normal neutrons, hence is a different particle entirely. > > > I guess that only one thing is now clear. The writer of this rant is not at > all reluctant to piggy-back one unproven hypothesis on top of another. > > However (to continue with nearly forgotten Latin) does that piggy-back > process lead one to reductio ab absurdum or QED quo erat demonstratum? > > Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 25 12:33:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA13660; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:32:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:32:55 -0700 Message-ID: <3BB0CE59.BF6D1B82 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:35:37 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: to all fliers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GbJ6I3.0.ML3.clDix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: While the half-wits at the FAA are taking nail clippers and hair spray from passengers and Congress, in their usual slow mode, is debating arming Pilots and hiring sky marshals, here is a solution one intelligent man has to offer. Perhaps this might save your life while the government goes about its usual business. Aboard Flight 564 by Peter Hannaford As it was at most U.S. airports, last Saturday was the first near-normal day at Denver International since the terrorist attacks. On United's Flight 564 the door had just been locked and the plane was about to pull out of the gate when the captain came on the public address system. "I want to thank you brave folks for coming out today. We don't have any new instructions from the federal government, so from now on we're on our own." The passengers listened in total silence. He explained that airport security measures had pretty much solved the problem of firearms being carried aboard, but not weapons of the type the terrorists apparently used, plastic knives or those fashioned from wood or ceramics. "Sometimes a potential hijacker will announce that he has a bomb. There are no bombs on this aircraft and if someone were to get up and make that claim, don't believe him. "If someone were to stand up, brandish something such as a plastic knife and say 'This is a hijacking' or words to that effect, here is what you should do: Every one of you should stand up and immediately throw things at that person - pillows, books, magazines, eyeglasses, shoes -anything that will throw him off balance and distract his attention. If he has a confederate or two, do the same with them. Most important: get a blanket over him, then wrestle him to floor and keep him there. We'll land the plane at the nearest airport and the authorities will take it from there." "Remember, there will be one of him and maybe a few confederates, but there are 200 of you. You can overwhelm them. "The Declaration of Independence says 'We, the people' and that's just what it is when we're up in the air: we, the people, vs. would-be terrorists. I don't think we are going to have any such problem today or tomorrow or for a while, but some time down the road, it is going to happen again and I want you to know what to do." "Now, since we're a family for the next few hours, I'll ask you to turn to the person next to you, introduce yourself, tell them a little about yourself and ask them to do the same." The end of this remarkable speech brought sustained clapping from the passengers. He had put the matter in perspective. If only the passengers on those ill-fated flights last Tuesday had been given the same talk, I thought, they might be alive today. One group on United Flight 93, which crashed in a Pennsylvania field, apparently rushed the hijackers in an attempt to wrest control from them. While they perished, they succeeded in pre-venting the terrorist from attacking his intended goal, possibly the White House or the Capitol. Procedures for dealing with hijackers were conceived in a time when the hijackers were usually seeking the release of jailed comrades or a large amount of money. Mass murder was not their goal. That short talk last Saturday by the pilot of Flight 564 should set a new standard of realism. Every passenger should learn the simple - but potentially life-saving procedure he outlined. He showed his passengers that a hijacking does not have to result in hopelessness and terror, but victory over the perpetrators From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 25 13:21:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07529; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:20:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:20:31 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010925155631.03488ea8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:20:55 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: to all fliers In-Reply-To: <3BB0CE59.BF6D1B82 ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"rL2j_1.0.Wr1.ESEix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Edmund Storms wrote: >While the half-wits at the FAA are taking nail clippers and >hair spray from passengers and Congress, in their usual slow >mode, is debating arming Pilots and hiring sky marshals, >here is a solution one intelligent man has to offer. >Perhaps this might save your life while the government goes >about its usual business. Actually, the government is moving very swiftly, and major reforms will likely be in place within weeks. I expect pilots will be allowed to carry guns if they want, with specially formulated ammunition that will be less likely to seriously damage the airplane. Pilot cockpit doors will surely be improved. The inside dope from the pilots here at PDK airport is that Washington National Airport (a.k.a. Reagan) will reopen very soon. The government usually dawdles, but at times like this you have to give it credit for rapid, wide ranging action. Maybe a little too wide ranging . . . I find it amusing that people criticize the government and say we don't need it, but the moment a catastrophe occurs they demand the government step in, take over a vital functions such as airport security in place of private industry, and they want to give it wide ranging power. There is a rush to expand wiretap authorizations. Billionaire Larry Ellison of Oracle, Corp. called for the establishment of a national ID card and offered to donate the software needed to make it. He says privacy is an illusion anyway, the government and the credit card companies already know where you are. 70% of the U.S. public agrees that we need an ID card "to show to a police officer on request." The British Parliament is seriously considering a national ID card. http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47073,00.html http://www.people-press.org/terrorist01mor.htm I personally would not want a law that gives the police the right to request anything, but it is okay for authorities to ask for an ID before they cash my check or let me ride on an airplane. Driver's licenses are de facto ID cards already, as demonstrated by the fact that in Georgia, people who cannot drive can get a non-driver's license, useful only as an ID card. I do not think it is possible to run a high tech society or an air transport system without government issued photo ID cards. In Japan, everyone, including foreigners, has to register their address, telephone number, family members and pets with the police. If you forget to vaccinate the dog for rabies, they come and remind you. I find it intrusive and reminiscent of the pre-war Fascist era. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Sep 25 14:12:56 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA01601; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:11:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:11:02 -0700 Sender: hoyt eskimo.com Message-ID: <3BB0F2FF.8A320C18 home.com> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:11:27 -0700 From: "Hoyt Stearns Jr." Organization: ISUS X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: to all fliers References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010925155631.03488ea8 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jFlor3.0.xO.cBFix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > likely be in place within weeks. I expect pilots will be allowed to carry > guns if they want, with specially formulated ammunition that will be less > likely to seriously damage the airplane. I've heard of new guns that will only fire if held by the owner--some kind of biometric identifier is built in. Hoyt Stearns Phoenix From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 26 09:06:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA18992; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:05:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:05:40 -0700 From: ConexTom aol.com Message-ID: <171.1807a83.28e35663 aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:03:47 EDT Subject: Energy Vortexes, Citizen Soldiers, & Mulitple Futures for Earth! To: svpvril yahoogroups.com, prj@mail.msen.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: ConexTom aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_171.1807a83.28e35663_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 Resent-Message-ID: <"tZMWm2.0.Ze4.JpVix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_171.1807a83.28e35663_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Energy Vortexes, Citizen Soldiers, And Multiple Futures for Earth. The structure of Earth is set up based on many diffferent energy vortexes, so that it can have multitudes of futures for each region of the planet. Please refert to the book Anti-Gravity & The World Grid, by David Childress for further detials. Citizen soldiers rather than professional soldiers can create multiple futures in which each individual, family, and nation can each have their own version of a future for Earth in their own communities. One citizen soldier can focus on the future of one's community mentally, and realize it peacefully, and take on a thousand professional soldiers in terms of probabilities, and weights w.r.t. to the energy vortexes in one's region of the world. Imagine what a whole group of citizen soldiers trained to imagine, visualize, and realize their own communities goals can do against the corrupt militaries and governments. Citizens only need to use the potentials of their mind to win any war by imagining, and realizing. Some citizens only imagine, but even fewer understand how realize their goals. The modern media either portrays one standard generic future for all, one government, one religion or a dualistic future for all, us vs.. them; and it ignores the fact that in reality Earth has many futures for each region of the planet. Many militaries think in terms of following only the orders of their commanders, without question even if they break the laws of their nation, which leads to one future and only one future for the top leader of their military, which may not be the best future. A citizen soldier, on the other hand, follows one's own spirit and the laws of the land, fights for one's own version of a future for one's family, and small town, and in part for one's nation, which allows for many futures for each region. Since it is difficult for me to find citizens soldiers, who understand the principles of true individualism and ethics and responsibility, I spend much of my time, like Luke Skywalker, in meditation asking for help form citizen soldiers from other planets, solar systems, and dimensions to aid Earth, so that it may have many futures for all the different regions on the planet. I also ask myself for help from my higher self to encourage multiple futures on Earth. I then focus on imagining multiple futures on Earth for everyone, where everyone is an individual, and also responsible enough to work peacefully and cooperatively with other individuals. I then realize my goals in a legal an peaceful manner , by sending out emails, letters to congressman, and by making agreements with others, who agree with me on certain issues. In a world of multiple futures, there can be many nations with different governments, many nations with different religions, and many citizens with healthy, free, and happy futures! May the many independent forces and futures be with you, Respectfully, Thomas Clark www.rhfweb.com\personal tom rhfweb.com --part1_171.1807a83.28e35663_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Energy Vortexes, Citizen Soldiers, And Multiple Futures for
Earth.

The structure of Earth is set up based on many diffferent
energy vortexes, so that it can have multitudes of futures for
each region of the planet. Please refert to the book Anti-Gravity &
The World Grid, by David Childress for further detials.
Citizen soldiers rather than professional soldiers can
create multiple futures in which each individual, family, and
nation can each have their own version of a future for Earth in
their own communities. One citizen soldier can focus on the
future of one's community mentally, and realize it peacefully,
and take on a thousand professional soldiers in terms of
probabilities, and weights w.r.t. to the energy vortexes in one's
region of the world.  Imagine what a whole group of citizen
soldiers trained to imagine, visualize, and realize their own
communities goals can do against the corrupt militaries and
governments. Citizens only need to use the potentials of their
mind to win any war by imagining, and realizing. Some citizens
only imagine, but even fewer understand how realize their
goals.

The modern media either portrays one standard generic future
for all, one government, one religion or a dualistic future for all,
us vs.. them; and it ignores the fact that in reality Earth has
many futures for each region of the planet. Many militaries
think in terms of following only the orders of their commanders,
without question even if they break the laws of their nation,
which leads to one future and only one future for the top leader
of their military, which may not be the best future.  A citizen
soldier, on the other hand,  follows one's own spirit and the
laws of the land, fights for one's own version of a future for
one's family, and small town, and in part for one's nation, which
allows for many futures for each region.  

Since it is difficult for me to find citizens soldiers, who
understand the principles of true individualism and ethics and
responsibility, I spend much of my time, like Luke Skywalker,
in meditation asking for help form citizen soldiers from other
planets, solar systems, and dimensions  to aid Earth, so that it
may have many futures for all the different regions on the
planet.  I also ask myself for help from my higher self to
encourage multiple futures on Earth. I then focus on imagining
multiple futures on Earth for everyone, where everyone is an
individual, and also responsible enough to work peacefully and
cooperatively with other individuals.  I then realize my goals in
a legal an peaceful manner , by sending out emails, letters to
congressman, and by making agreements with others, who
agree with me on certain issues. In a world of multiple futures,
there can be many nations with different governments, many
nations with different religions, and many citizens with healthy,
free, and happy  futures!

May the many independent forces and futures be with you,

Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
www.rhfweb.com\personal
tom rhfweb.com

--part1_171.1807a83.28e35663_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 26 09:46:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13935; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:45:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:45:21 -0700 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:40:31 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: New Mills' hearsay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <002701c146a9$f51cb080$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <001601c145e0$9416d640$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BB0CACA.C3E3ADF5 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"f9Fbl3.0.fP3.XOWix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Edmund Storms" > I appreciate the originality of your analysis. However, I suggest a person > needs to be very careful which observations are to be used to support the Mills > effect. Thanks at least for keeping an open mind. From past correspondence, it seems that you have already accepted the proposition that more than one previously unexplained reaction can be happening to explain CF energy anomalies. Nobody has the complete picture, and that is why I harbor the hope that sometime in the future you will have the opportunity to perform spectroscopy on an operating Pd-D cell. If the reason is not obvious, let me specify it exactly. It is my belief that you will find copius high energy photon radiation that are otherwise unexplainable - except as certain well known spectral lines of hydrogen that occur well above the realm of chemical reactions - 10 eV and higher and these fit nicely into the CQM theory. Photon evidence is hard evidence. Calorimetry can be subjective. Nuclear reactions cannot occur without some clear photon evidence. CF from almost everybody else but Claytor has lacked this hard evidence. > Many observations have very prosaic explanations, the rejection of > which is as hard to accept as is the proposed unique explanation. As a result, > the difficulty of acceptance has how been squared. Yes, I admit to that - but the same warning also applies to any attempt to "alter" the explanations of traditional physics to fit unusual circumstances, particularly in regard to the lack of high energy photons. > > the little problem ... ot the "missing ~200 million degrees" i.e. the threshold of D+D fusion. > If you assume that Coulomb barrier penetration can only be accomplished using > brute force, then "200 million degrees" is missing. However, nature always has > subtle methods available. While the Mills effect might be one of them, dozens > of other mechanisms have been proposed. I certainly agree. But there must exist hard evidence for these subtle alternative methods of nature. Mother nature does not provide subtle alternatives, and then go on to totally mask the evidence. Mills provided a theory that said in advance, you should find photons of this magnitute; and, lo and behold, when they were looked for (later) they were found exactly where they were supposed to be. > Regardless of which method is proposed, it must not only overcome the barrier, but it must distribute the resulting energy to many atoms within a short time. I do not see how the Mills effect can do this. Mills theory can do this easily because the excess energy is in the EUV photons themselves and not in higher mass particles. The photons happen to be in the range of "universally absorbed". If they were lower energy EM such as light, they would be seen through the glass of dewars, but even glass absords EUV as if it were lead. If gammas were produced then some would come through. Ed. This objection that you focus on Mills theory is exactly the real problem with your alternative explanation - that is, of real D+D fusion. With D+D you are going to end up with the excess heat provided by multi-MeV alphas, and the secondary interaction of these CANNOT be hidden. The "phonon quenching" thing is little more than a total whitewash in that there is not a scintilla of real world evidence that multi-MeV alphas can supply heat without some secondary photon emissions. Think about what you are saying - aren't you really saying that 100% of the secondary interaction of multi-MeV alphas is hidden in phonons? With your background, surely you can appreciate why this could never be true. > Loading of bulk Pd is fast at first. However, the rate approaches zero as the > composition approaches an upper limit. The upper limit is characteristic of > the individual piece of Pd and how it was treated. If the upper limit is less > than the critical composition required for the effect to occur, nothing > happens. I didn't say that full loading wasn't required, only that it can be accomplished in less time than what happens in practice and that time delay (50 hours for Claytor) is arguably more likely to be required for the manufacture of a critical level of deuterinos than for loading. > In addition, when finely divided Pd is placed on the > surface of Pt, anomalous heat is produced immediately, without any delay. How > would you explain this observation using your model? It could be a temporal effect of matrix loading and flash unloading - but regardless, it can't be explained as D+D fusion unless you find some secondary high energy photons that would of necessity HAVE to appear if multi-MeV alphas are providing the heat. > Calorimetric studies would detect this loss of energy as deuterino deuteride is > formed during the loading process. This is not seen. Loading is endothermic, > but the amount has been measured and is consistent with the thermodynamics >of the Pd-D system. I'm not so sure of that. There are some reports of exothermic loading. In fact one of EarthTech's first experiments involved these reported anomalies with hydrogen filters.(it was negative, of course) > Neutron generation is easy when an electric discharge is made to occur in D2 > gas. This is normal fusion. While it can generate significant neutron flux... Yes, but Mills doesn't use D2, so what would be causing neutron activation in that circumstance (assuming that is what actually has delayed his product)? > Neutron formation is endothermic. This is not a matter for debate. If this > were not so, the neutron would be stable and it would not decay into a proton, > an energetic electron and a neutrino, a process that is well documented. If a > person claims to generate energy by forming a neutron, then this neutron is not > like normal neutrons, hence is a different particle entirely. Well, I didn't believe the Conte report in IE either, but maybe we should both go back and reread it. Thanks for you comments, and again if the circumstance ever unfold that allow you to perform spectroscopy on one of your operating cells, PLEASE go for it! BTW, as mentioned, EUV is universally absorbed, so the photocell of any spectroscopy probe will need to be actually inserted deep into the cell as near to the active sites as possible. Even then, Mills reports that the bulk of measurable radiation is at a secondary drop down from 27.2 to the 10.6 ev line, I believe. Nevertheless, it is certainly sigma > 10 over what should be expected at all of the predicted lines. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 26 11:54:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24661; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:53:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:53:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3BB224E3.11AAE8C1 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:56:35 -0400 From: Terry Blanton Organization: . X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: WTC Collapse Analysis Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_MU6S3.0.416.OGYix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.rense.com/general14/WTCfailureanalysis.pdf From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 26 12:21:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA12359; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:20:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:20:36 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926151520.0344bc70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:21:08 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: JCF3 schedule and abstracts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"sy5JU.0.y03.3gYix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Third Japan CF Research Society Conference (JCF3) will be held October 25 - 21, 2001, at Yokohama National University. The schedule and abstracts (in English) are here: http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/file/jcf3abstract.pdf I will be attending. If someone would like to learn about a particular presentation in detail, please let me know. It looks like there is increased emphasis on light water this year. Last year some light water studies were described, but in my judgement they were all negative or noise level results. I hope to see better results this year. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 26 13:00:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA04054; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:59:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:59:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3BB22638.FE09CF34 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:02:43 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Mills' hearsay References: <001601c145e0$9416d640$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BB0CACA.C3E3ADF5 ix.netcom.com> <002701c146a9$f51cb080$aa69fea9@cpq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"z1Rrk1.0.G_.vEZix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > From: "Edmund Storms" > > > I appreciate the originality of your analysis. However, I suggest a person > > needs to be very careful which observations are to be used to support the > Mills > > effect. > > Thanks at least for keeping an open mind. From past correspondence, it seems > that you have already accepted the proposition that more than one previously > unexplained reaction can be happening to explain CF energy anomalies. > > Nobody has the complete picture, and that is why I harbor the hope that > sometime in the future you will have the opportunity to perform spectroscopy > on an operating Pd-D cell. If the reason is not obvious, let me specify it > exactly. > > It is my belief that you will find copius high energy photon radiation that > are otherwise unexplainable - except as certain well known spectral lines of > hydrogen that occur well above the realm of chemical reactions - 10 eV and > higher and these fit nicely into the CQM theory. > > Photon evidence is hard evidence. Calorimetry can be subjective. Nuclear > reactions cannot occur without some clear photon evidence. CF from almost > everybody else but Claytor has lacked this hard evidence. I agree with you, emission of low energy photons is expected regardless of the proposed mechanism. The only issue is their energy. People have occasionally seen such emissions as exposed X-ray film or as characteristic X-rays of Pd. However, such measurements are difficult to do in the P-F environment. Once the anomalous energy can be produced with reliability in a gas environment, a search will be undertaken. Please be assured, once the effect can be produced at will in an environment allowing such measurements, a search will be made for a wide spectrum of radiation. > > > > Many observations have very prosaic explanations, the rejection of > > which is as hard to accept as is the proposed unique explanation. As a > result, > > the difficulty of acceptance has how been squared. > > Yes, I admit to that - but the same warning also applies to any attempt to > "alter" the explanations of traditional physics to fit unusual > circumstances, particularly in regard to the lack of high energy photons. No one has to alter traditional physics because traditional physics has not been done in the unique environment associated with CANR. The traditional studies have been done in a plasma and/or at very high energy. When low energy is used in a metallic environment, anomalous aspects of the fusion reaction are seen even by traditional physics. The fact that different environments initiate different effects by different mechanisms is not unique to this phenomenon. > > > > > the little problem ... ot the "missing ~200 million degrees" i.e. the > threshold of D+D fusion. > > > If you assume that Coulomb barrier penetration can only be accomplished > using > > brute force, then "200 million degrees" is missing. However, nature > always has > > subtle methods available. While the Mills effect might be one of them, > dozens > > of other mechanisms have been proposed. > > I certainly agree. But there must exist hard evidence for these subtle > alternative methods of nature. Mother nature does not provide subtle > alternatives, and then go on to totally mask the evidence. Mills provided a > theory that said in advance, you should find photons of this magnitute; and, > lo and behold, when they were looked for (later) they were found exactly > where they were supposed to be. You have hit upon the strength of Mills' claims. However, this does not mean his claims work under all conditions producing anomalous nuclear reactions. So far the evidence is masked because no one has had the money and skill to get a CANR reaction to occur in front of the correct detector often enough to get the attention of the physics community. In this field, the effect apparently must be seen often and by the correct people for it to be believed. As a result, the periodic reports of seeing such radiation never reach a publication read by physicists. However, such reports are in the ICCF conference proceedings > > > > Regardless of which method is proposed, it must not only overcome the > barrier, but it must distribute the resulting energy to many atoms within a > short time. I do not see how the Mills effect can do this. > > Mills theory can do this easily because the excess energy is in the EUV > photons themselves and not in higher mass particles. The photons happen to > be in the range of "universally absorbed". If they were lower energy EM such > as light, they would be seen through the glass of dewars, but even glass > absords EUV as if it were lead. If gammas were produced then some would come > through. I agree, the energy released in forming hydrinos is in the form of low energy radiation. What about the energy released when He4 or tritium is formed? Where does this energy go? > > > Ed. This objection that you focus on Mills theory is exactly the real > problem with your alternative explanation - that is, of real D+D fusion. > With D+D you are going to end up with the excess heat provided by multi-MeV > alphas, and the secondary interaction of these CANNOT be hidden. The "phonon > quenching" thing is little more than a total whitewash in that there is not > a scintilla of real world evidence that multi-MeV alphas can supply heat > without some secondary photon emissions. You are making an assumption here based on the experience within a plasma. How do you know that multi-MeV alphas result when the effect occurs in a periodic solid? While I agree the resulting alphas will have some energy and this energy will be transferred to the lattice while generating low-energy radiation, I do not think one must assume that each alpha has an energy in the MeV range. Nevertheless, I agree, some low energy radiation must be produced. We just need to set up the proper detectors to see it. > > > Think about what you are saying - aren't you really saying that 100% of the > secondary interaction of multi-MeV alphas is hidden in phonons? With your > background, surely you can appreciate why this could never be true. No, I'm not saying this. I'm saying the process may involve, as one example, maybe a dozen deuterons, each taking a fraction of the energy released when two of them fuse, another fraction of the energy is taken up by phonon, and the remainder is released as low energy X-rays. > > > > Loading of bulk Pd is fast at first. However, the rate approaches zero as > the > > composition approaches an upper limit. The upper limit is characteristic > of > > the individual piece of Pd and how it was treated. If the upper limit is > less > > than the critical composition required for the effect to occur, nothing > > happens. > > I didn't say that full loading wasn't required, only that it can be > accomplished in less time than what happens in practice and that time delay > (50 hours for Claytor) is arguably more likely to be required for the > manufacture of a critical level of deuterinos than for loading. > > > In addition, when finely divided Pd is placed on the > > surface of Pt, anomalous heat is produced immediately, without any delay. > How > > would you explain this observation using your model? > > It could be a temporal effect of matrix loading and flash unloading - but > regardless, it can't be explained as D+D fusion unless you find some > secondary high energy photons that would of necessity HAVE to appear if > multi-MeV alphas are providing the heat. The absence of detected photons is not proof of anything because they have not been looked for using the proper equipment. I fully expect they will be found. However, whether they result from the Mills effect or from another process has yet to be determined and is the issue in this debate. > > > > Calorimetric studies would detect this loss of energy as deuterino > deuteride is > > formed during the loading process. This is not seen. Loading is > endothermic, > > but the amount has been measured and is consistent with the thermodynamics > >of the Pd-D system. > > I'm not so sure of that. There are some reports of exothermic loading. In > fact one of EarthTech's first experiments involved these reported anomalies > with hydrogen filters.(it was negative, of course) > > > > Neutron generation is easy when an electric discharge is made to occur in > D2 > > gas. This is normal fusion. While it can generate significant neutron > flux... > > Yes, but Mills doesn't use D2, so what would be causing neutron activation > in that circumstance (assuming that is what actually has delayed his > product)? If this is the case, why did you make the statement "Could it be that the "delay" in CF is not for loading at all, or at least not "just for" loading, but also that this delay represents the time necessary to convert a large proportion of the D2 into D-d, which for the sake of clarity (or is that obfuscation) can be called deuterino deuteride"? Was this referral to deuterium only to apply to the P-F studies? How do you know that Mills was not using deuterium when he experience neutron activation? > > > > Neutron formation is endothermic. This is not a matter for debate. If > this > > were not so, the neutron would be stable and it would not decay into a > proton, > > an energetic electron and a neutrino, a process that is well documented. > If a > > person claims to generate energy by forming a neutron, then this neutron > is not > > like normal neutrons, hence is a different particle entirely. > > Well, I didn't believe the Conte report in IE either, but maybe we should > both go back and reread it. > > Thanks for you comments, and again if the circumstance ever unfold that > allow you to perform spectroscopy on one of your operating cells, PLEASE go > for it! You bet I will!!! Regards, Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 26 14:58:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05956; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:57:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:57:06 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Mills' hearsay Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:57:06 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001601c145e0$9416d640$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BB0CACA.C3E3ADF5@ix.netcom.com> <002701c146a9$f51cb080$aa69fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <002701c146a9$f51cb080$aa69fea9 cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA05917 Resent-Message-ID: <"MHqCU2.0.yS1.oyaix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:40:31 -0700: [snip] >I certainly agree. But there must exist hard evidence for these subtle >alternative methods of nature. Mother nature does not provide subtle >alternatives, and then go on to totally mask the evidence. Mills provided a >theory that said in advance, you should find photons of this magnitute; and, >lo and behold, when they were looked for (later) they were found exactly >where they were supposed to be. Then perhaps you could provide a precise reference amongst his publications. I've been looking for them for ages, and don't recall ever having seen one (i.e. not the Lyman alpha line). > >> Regardless of which method is proposed, it must not only overcome the >barrier, but it must distribute the resulting energy to many atoms within a >short time. I do not see how the Mills effect can do this. > >Mills theory can do this easily because the excess energy is in the EUV >photons themselves and not in higher mass particles. The photons happen to >be in the range of "universally absorbed". If they were lower energy EM such >as light, they would be seen through the glass of dewars, but even glass >absords EUV as if it were lead. If gammas were produced then some would come >through. If all, or even most, of the energy were in the EUV, then Ed's orphaned oxygen would probably be noticeable (or high levels of shrinkage would need to occur consistently). > >Ed. This objection that you focus on Mills theory is exactly the real >problem with your alternative explanation - that is, of real D+D fusion. >With D+D you are going to end up with the excess heat provided by multi-MeV >alphas, and the secondary interaction of these CANNOT be hidden. The "phonon >quenching" thing is little more than a total whitewash in that there is not >a scintilla of real world evidence that multi-MeV alphas can supply heat >without some secondary photon emissions. As I understand it, the phonon quenching hypothesis doesn't produce any multi-MeV alphas to start with. The energy is produced, already distributed throughout the lattice. I see this as follows:- When a fusion reaction occurs, the entire lattice (or at least large parts of it) undergo a shift resulting in the production of zillions of atomic electric dipoles, each of which functions as a minute energy storage device (i.e. opposite charges are separated). This stores the fusion energy globally in the lattice - it takes work to separate the charges. > >Think about what you are saying - aren't you really saying that 100% of the >secondary interaction of multi-MeV alphas is hidden in phonons? With your >background, surely you can appreciate why this could never be true. Since there are no energetic primary alphas, there are also no secondary interactions. [snip] Ed wrote: >> In addition, when finely divided Pd is placed on the >> surface of Pt, anomalous heat is produced immediately, without any delay. Ed, could you be a little more explicit here? Are you talking about codeposition? Exactly how is the finely divided Pd brought into contact with the Pt, and is there any D (H) present? [snip] >Yes, but Mills doesn't use D2, so what would be causing neutron activation >in that circumstance (assuming that is what actually has delayed his >product)? How about M + Hy -> M+1* (radioactive), with M any one of many possible different nuclei present in the device? Note however that I don't think this is what's delaying him. I think the real delay is getting the electrons to carry the energy of the reaction out of the cell and into the gyrotron. I.e. I think most of the energy is being release as UV/EUV, and is being directly absorbed by the walls of the device, resulting in heat. There is probably also a problem getting the reaction to create significantly more energy than is added by the heating unit that keeps it at temperature. In short, engineering problems. It seems to me that most of these result from an attempt to get a lab experiment to produce huge excess energy, while what he should be doing IMO is producing a prototype that combines all the needed engineering solutions, then see how well it works. I might add that he has already been "beaten to the punch" several times, some of which were patented years ago. [snip] >Thanks for you comments, and again if the circumstance ever unfold that >allow you to perform spectroscopy on one of your operating cells, PLEASE go >for it! As has been previously proposed, addition of substances that fluoresce under influence of specific UV/EUV frequencies might be a reasonably simple way of detecting such radiation. In a sense, the Lyman alpha line intensity increase is such a method (as pointed out by JB here below). > >BTW, as mentioned, EUV is universally absorbed, so the photocell of any >spectroscopy probe will need to be actually inserted deep into the cell as >near to the active sites as possible. Even then, Mills reports that the bulk >of measurable radiation is at a secondary drop down from 27.2 to the 10.6 ev >line, I believe. Nevertheless, it is certainly sigma > 10 over what should >be expected at all of the predicted lines. > > >Regards, > >Jones Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 26 14:58:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA06040; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:57:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:57:12 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926175637.03d67578 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:57:40 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: JCF3 schedule and abstracts In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926151520.0344bc70 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"xapkt3.0.DU1.tyaix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A couple of people report they cannot read the Abstracts. The file is in Acrobat .pdf format. I think this is the Japanese version of Acrobat because I cannot read some pages. Here is the schedule converted to plain text. - JR Program of JCF3 Meeting, October 25-26, 2001, at University Hall, Yokohama National University, Yokohama, Japan, October 25, 2001 900-950 Registration 950 Opening Address (K. Ota, Yokohama N.U.) 1000 Electrolysis Light and Heavy Water (chairman A. Takahashi, Osaka U.) 1000-1025 JCF3-1 H. Yamada et al. (Iwate U.)Nuclear Transmutation by Light Water Electrolysis with Palladium Cathode 1025-1050 JCF3-2 M. Fujii et al. (Yokohama N.U.) HEAT MEASUREMENT DURING LIGHT WATER ELECTROLYSIS USING Pd RODS AND Pd/Ni RODS CATHODE 1050-1115 JCF3-3 Y. Isobe et al. (Osaka U.)Study of Nuclear Reactions in Metal-Deuteride by Closed-Type D2O Electrolysis 1115-1140 JCF3-4 T. Mizuno et al. (Hokkaido U.)Neutron and Heat Generation from a Palladium Electrode by Alternate Absorption Treatment of Deuterium and Hydrogen Special Talk(chairmanA. Takahashi, Osaka U.) 1140-1215 JCF3-5 F. Celani et al. (INFN-LNF)Electrochemical H-D loading of Palladium wires by hydro-alcoholic electrolytes related to the new discovered Ralstonia bacteria into heavy water. ---lunch (1215-1400) --- 1400 ElectrolysisPlasma State (chairman T. Itoh, Mitsubishi H.I.) 1400-1425 JCF3-6 T. Ohmori et al. (Hokkaido U.)Nuclear Transmutation from 39 K to 41 K in the Plasma Electrolysis on Re in K2CO3/H2O and D2O Solutions 1425-1450 JCF3-7 M. Matsunaka et al. (Osaka U.)Studies of Photon Source for Multi Photon Induced Fission under Plasma Electrolysis 1450-1515 JCF3-8 T. Hanawa (Osaka U., Emeritus)Calorimetry of Submerged Carbon Arc. ---break (10 min) --- 1525 Theory-1 (chairman K. Ota, Yokohama N.U.) 1525-1550 JCF3-9 T. Sawada (Nihon U.)Implications of 4 He dominance in d+d reactions 1550-1615 JCF3-10 T. Sawada (Nihon U.)Proposal to identify the 'nuclear active state' 1615-1640 JCF3-11 H. YamamotoA Study on Anomalous Characteristics of Gasses Generated by under-water electric arc discharge with carbon electrodes 1640-1705 JCF3-12 N. Yabuuchi (High Scientific Research Laboratry)Possibility of Nuclear Fusion in Solid 1705-1735 JCF Annual Meeting 1800-2000 Reception October 26, 2001 900 Gas and Vacuum Phase Exp. (chairmanT. Mizuno, Hokkaido U.) 900-925 JCF3-13 A. Arapi et al. (Iwate U.)Generation of the new elements and isotopic changes on deuterated palladium electrodes under DC glow discharge. 925-950 JCF3-14 S. Narita et al. (Iwate U.)Anomalous Heat Effect for Palladium Hydride in Gas Out-diffusion Method 950-1015 JCF3-15 T. Itoh et al. (Mitsubishi H.I.)Observation of low energy nuclear reaction induced by D2 gas permeation through the multilayer Pd film(1) -Transmutation of Cs into Pr- 1015-1040 JCF3-16 M. Sakano et al. (Mitsubishi H.I.)Observation of low energy nuclear reaction induced by D2 gas permeation through the multilayer Pd film(2) -Transmutation of Sr to Mo- --- break (10 min) --- 1050 Theory-2 (chairman T. Ohmori, Hokkaido U.) 1050-1115 JCF3-17 M. FukuharaNeutral Pion-Catalysed Fusion in Palladium Lattice 1115-1140 JCF3-18 K. Tsuchiya (Tokyo N.C.T.)Effects of the Bose-Einstein Condensation to the Nuclear Reaction in Solids II 1140-1205 JCF3-19 A. Takahashi et al. (Osaka U.)Cold Fusion and Clean Fission 1205-1230 JCF3-20 M. Ohta et al. (Osaka U.)Analysis on fission in U-235 by SCS Model --- lunch (1230-1430) --- 1430 Beam Solid Interaction (chairmanH. Yamada, Iwate U.) 1430-1455 JCF3-21 K. Kamada (The Wakasa-wan Energy Reserch Center)Heating of Deuteron Implanted Al on Electron Bombardment and its Possible Relation to "Cold Fusion" Experiment 1455-1520 JCF3-22 T. Hayashi et al. (Osaka U.) Studies of Nuclear Reactions in Solids in Titanium Deuteride under Deutron Beam Irradiation 1520-1545 JCF3-23 Y. Katayama et al. (Osaka U.) Studies of Nuclear-reactions-in-solid in Titanium-deuteride under Ion Inplantation-III -Experiments with proton and Si 3+ beam implantation- 1545-1610 JCF3-24 T. Dairaku et al. (Osaka U.)Analysis of Charged-Particle-Spectra Obtained under the Implantation of Ion Beam to TiD, TiDH and TiH 1610-1635 JCF3-25 H. Mori et al. (Osaka U.) Studies of Nuclear Reactions in Solids under Electron Beam Irradiation to Metal Deuteride Adjourn. (JCF4 will be held at Iwate U.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 26 15:33:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA24548; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:30:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:30:35 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926183006.025a1398 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:31:04 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Astounding transmutation data In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926175637.03d67578 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926151520.0344bc70 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"25yXC.0.U_5.ASbix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Look at Fig. 2 in JCF3-16. I can't describe it well here. I hope many readers can see it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 26 16:40:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA28329; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:39:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:39:39 -0700 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:34:42 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: New Mills' hearsay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <005901c146e3$d2339180$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <001601c145e0$9416d640$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BB0CACA.C3E3ADF5 ix.netcom.com> <002701c146a9$f51cb080$aa69fea9@cpq> Resent-Message-ID: <"-AL3l3.0.Zw6.wScix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > Then perhaps you could provide a precise reference amongst his > publications. I've been looking for them for ages, and don't recall ever > having seen one (i.e. not the Lyman alpha line). Are you asking for a referenced date to a publication in which it is predicted ahead of time that a spectal line should be at, say 27.2 eV, and which is prior to the first publication of actual spectroscopy data, which is rather recent? I think I have that in some old Fusion Technology articles. If you are asking me if Mills could have back-tracked and polished off the theory after he already knew the exact energy, then maybe you are correct. I suspect that backtracking to flesh out a theory is not uncommon in science, however tainted it may seem; but it looks to me that Mills, as a somewhat of a cosmology nut, found out about the spectral lines first in the cosmology data. > If all, or even most, of the energy were in the EUV, then Ed's orphaned > oxygen would probably be noticeable (or high levels of shrinkage would > need to occur consistently). We shouldn't confuse the hydrogen/hydrino experiments with the deuterium/deuterino, even if both share many preliminary features. In the BLP hydrogen/hydrino experiments I think all the energy comes from shrinkage, with perhaps a negative endothermic region at the top level - and maybe at the bottomas well if a neutron is the end result (big IF). But there is no oxygen in BLPs plasma cell. In Pd-D systems, where it would seem that most of the energy comes from fusion (or possibly even alpha emission from activated Pd), then things could be far different and several mechanism could come into play. Anyone who has broad experience with deuterium reactors will probably tell you that the stuff is unstable once it has been irradiated. I have seen this in writing from a Canadian nuclear engineer who spent his career working on CANDU. He says you can throw away the texbooks, once you have zapped the stuff. Whether or not irradiation - at only EUV energy is enough to change its properties beyond anything that you will find in print, as happens with gammas in a reactor, is anybody's guess. This is little gem of experiential knowledge, even though anecdotal, is one of several things that add up to make me wonder if by combining the two bodies of evidence that have accumulated in CANR/ LENR, then by using the best of both, one couldn't come up with something that outperformed either. A system that used below-ground-state D would seem to offer many advantages. As I have stated earlier, Mills may even know this, but wouldn't touch deuterium with a ten foot pole because of the issue of intellectual property. If he gets to market first, then he may graduate to D because of its much higher potential energy, but by that time he will be able to buy up the patents of anyone in his way. If the ash from Pd-D is mostly 3H then it could possibly be coming from deuterium/deuteron fusion. If the ash is 4He then it could be something else. But of all the possibilities, IMHO, strait-on D+D fusion is the hardest to fit into the evidence (and it all goes back to no gammas) - don't forget that 4He could also be an alpha that is ejected from the Pd on absorption of the deuterino or a manufactured neutron (you can't forget it because you have already alluded to the possiblity below). But maybe you didn't know that some alpha decay is gamma-less (though it is rare). OR - Maybe when D tries to shrink to a certain level you get two neutrons (which would be parasitic of energy until the then activated the Pd. > As I understand it, the phonon quenching hypothesis doesn't produce any > multi-MeV alphas to start with. The energy is produced, already > distributed throughout the lattice. > the entire lattice (or at least large parts of > it) undergo a shift resulting in the production of zillions of atomic > electric dipoles, each of which functions as a minute energy storage > device (i.e. opposite charges are separated). This stores the fusion > energy globally in the lattice - it takes work to separate the charges. Wait! Now you are guilty of stacking three unproven hypotheses one on top of the other. At least I can get by with two ;-] Where's the model for this? > >Yes, but Mills doesn't use D2, so what would be causing neutron activation > >in that circumstance (assuming that is what actually has delayed his > >product)? > How about M + Hy -> M+1* (radioactive), with M any one of many possible > different nuclei present in the device? I could buy it - except for the Coloumb barrier issue. Neutrons are a much better candidate for heavy metal or structural activation. > In short, engineering problems. If it is just that, then there is some hope that we will see results soon. A commentator recently opined that, "after a great tragedy, fate often has a surprising way of providing a great gift." Maybe we are close to the unwrapping time. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Sep 26 21:21:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA28114; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:20:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:20:21 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Mills' hearsay Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:20:22 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7775rtkhh4841fokluvuv7684k2alet4f8 4ax.com> References: <001601c145e0$9416d640$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BB0CACA.C3E3ADF5@ix.netcom.com> <002701c146a9$f51cb080$aa69fea9@cpq> <005901c146e3$d2339180$aa69fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <005901c146e3$d2339180$aa69fea9 cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA28081 Resent-Message-ID: <"-hF9M.0.Ct6.5agix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:34:42 -0700: >From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > >> Then perhaps you could provide a precise reference amongst his >> publications. I've been looking for them for ages, and don't recall ever >> having seen one (i.e. not the Lyman alpha line). > >Are you asking for a referenced date to a publication in which it is >predicted ahead of time that a spectal line should be at, say 27.2 eV, and >which is prior to the first publication of actual spectroscopy data, which >is rather recent? No, I'm asking for a graph showing the 27.2 eV spectral line, or any of the higher energy lines one might expect from shrinkage, e.g. Hy[n=1/5] + Ar+ -> Hy[n=1/6] + Ar++ + e- + 122.4 eV (EUV) in which case I would like to see the 122.4 eV line (though I grant we may be lacking in equipment able to detect such lines). [snip] >> If all, or even most, of the energy were in the EUV, then Ed's orphaned >> oxygen would probably be noticeable (or high levels of shrinkage would >> need to occur consistently). > >We shouldn't confuse the hydrogen/hydrino experiments with the >deuterium/deuterino, even if both share many preliminary features. In the >BLP hydrogen/hydrino experiments I think all the energy comes from >shrinkage, Well almost all. >with perhaps a negative endothermic region at the top level - and I doubt it. I think the proton loses mass to compensate here. >maybe at the bottomas well if a neutron is the end result (big IF). Yes, the requirement for 782 keV is somewhat more extreme than "endothermic" IMO. [snip] >In Pd-D systems, where it would seem that most of the energy comes from >fusion (or possibly even alpha emission from activated Pd), then things >could be far different and several mechanism could come into play. Anyone >who has broad experience with deuterium reactors will probably tell you that >the stuff Which "stuff" is that? >is unstable once it has been irradiated. I have seen this in >writing from a Canadian nuclear engineer who spent his career working on >CANDU. He says you can throw away the texbooks, once you have zapped the >stuff. Whether or not irradiation - at only EUV energy is enough to change >its properties beyond anything that you will find in print, as happens with >gammas in a reactor, is anybody's guess. I think that depends on what the "stuff" is, and what form the instability takes. [snip] >A system that used below-ground-state D would seem to offer many advantages. > >As I have stated earlier, Mills may even know this, but wouldn't touch >deuterium with a ten foot pole because of the issue of intellectual >property. Don't forget he doesn't want to be even remotely associated with CF, if he can possibly help it. [snip] >If the ash from Pd-D is mostly 3H then it could possibly be coming from >deuterium/deuteron fusion. If the ash is 4He then it could be something >else. But of all the possibilities, IMHO, strait-on D+D fusion is the >hardest to fit into the evidence (and it all goes back to no gammas) - don't >forget that 4He could also be an alpha that is ejected from the Pd on >absorption of the deuterino or a manufactured neutron (you can't forget it >because you have already alluded to the possiblity below). While possible, the energy doesn't add up, unless you have two fusions followed by an alpha emission. >But maybe you >didn't know that some alpha decay is gamma-less (though it is rare). I know it, in fact I proposed such a mechanism on this forum about 4 years ago. However, I think it is only completely gamma less when the total energy release is less then the first excited state of the daughter nucleus. > >OR - Maybe when D tries to shrink to a certain level you get two neutrons >(which would be parasitic of energy until the then activated the Pd. You don't need two neutrons. Nuclear absorption of a shrunken D along with it's shrunken electron can serve the same purpose, with what would normally be an electron capture reaction vastly accelerated by the fact that the electron is already handy, rather than needing to be captured from a "remote" atomic orbit. The neutrino-antineutrino pair is created as required. This latter leads to interesting speculation. Since neutrinos can carry energy, and a pair can be created with no net spin, why don't excited nuclei use neutrino pair creation as a means of losing energy (or do all transitions require change of spin, even if sometimes in whole units)? > >> As I understand it, the phonon quenching hypothesis doesn't produce any >> multi-MeV alphas to start with. The energy is produced, already >> distributed throughout the lattice. > >> the entire lattice (or at least large parts of >> it) undergo a shift resulting in the production of zillions of atomic >> electric dipoles, each of which functions as a minute energy storage >> device (i.e. opposite charges are separated). This stores the fusion >> energy globally in the lattice - it takes work to separate the charges. > >Wait! Now you are guilty of stacking three unproven hypotheses one on top of >the other. At least I can get by with two ;-] Where's the model for this? Which three? Chubb and Chubb. [snip] >> How about M + Hy -> M+1* (radioactive), with M any one of many possible >> different nuclei present in the device? > >I could buy it - except for the Coloumb barrier issue. Neutrons are a much >better candidate for heavy metal or structural activation. When a hydrino shrinks to about 4 fm, it will fuse with anything (including U) in less than a microsecond - Put that saw away! - I like it out here on my limb ;). > >> In short, engineering problems. > >If it is just that, then there is some hope that we will see results soon. I think http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/technical/Calvet_Measurement_0901.pdf already has most of the necessary ingredients. > >A commentator recently opined that, "after a great tragedy, fate often has a >surprising way of providing a great gift." Maybe we are close to the >unwrapping time. Yes, but will we recognise it when we get it? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 05:23:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA22570; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 05:23:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 05:23:20 -0700 Message-ID: <3BB338C8.14AB bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:33:44 -0700 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [OT]Global Consciousness Project Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hwH433.0.UW5.uenix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Princeton University's Global Consciousness Project recorded some amazing results for a period of 4 hours preceeding the NYC disaster, until two days afterward. I know many are skeptical about psychic phenomena, but, as they say in CF research, look at the experimental data. Project explanation: http://noosphere.princeton.edu/ WTC event results: http://noosphere.princeton.edu/terror.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 08:12:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02755; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:09:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:09:09 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010927110757.00aa6428 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:09:35 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [OT]Global Consciousness Project In-Reply-To: <3BB338C8.14AB bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"9nHTo1.0.sg.L4qix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Project explanation: > >http://noosphere.princeton.edu/ > >WTC event results: > >http://noosphere.princeton.edu/terror.html The data is remarkable, but what exactly are these REG devices? Where are they described in detail? How do they generate random signals? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 08:43:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24068; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:42:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:42:47 -0700 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:37:53 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: New Mills' hearsay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <000f01c1476a$6019e5e0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <001601c145e0$9416d640$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BB0CACA.C3E3ADF5 ix.netcom.com> <002701c146a9$f51cb080$aa69fea9@cpq> <005901c146e3$d2339180$aa69fea9 cpq> <7775rtkhh4841fokluvuv7684k2alet4f8 4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"-D8Zv1.0.Xt5.rZqix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > No, I'm asking for a graph showing the 27.2 eV spectral line, or any of > the higher energy lines one might expect from shrinkage, Try figure 4 and especially figure 5 in "Anomalous Hydrogen/Strontium Discharge" by Randell L. Mills, Mark Nansteel, Ying Lu. I don't know if it is online or not. I have only a photocopy. > Yes, the requirement for 782 keV is somewhat more extreme... Although this exact mechanism seems unlikely, you might get two thirds or more, maybe way more, of that depletion back if the "captured electron" comes from somewhere else in the system. As you probably have read, Zimmereman thinks this is preposterous. Equally preposterous is the idea that some proton mass has been drained from the shrinking proton/ neutron, ala subquarks. But that would be the way I would be leaning... This might also make EC easier. > Which "stuff" is that? The deuterium in heavy water - heavy water is the moderator in a CANDU reactor. > ... what form does the instability take... Things like spontaneous decay continuously over long periods, even years after the heavy water has been removed from a reactor. Things like finding that a much larger portion (than ever imagined or taught) - of the neutron flux in such a reactor comes from the moderator, rather than the fuel. You won't find this in any text on reactor design...What you will find is comments like, the CANDU is the most efficient reactor ever built, etc... > While possible, the energy doesn't add up, unless you have two fusions followed by an alpha emission. What energy levels are you assuming and why don't they add up? What energy are you assuming for one of these "magical" Chubb alphas, the kind that get quenched in the matrix? > You don't need two neutrons. Nuclear absorption of a shrunken D along with it's shrunken electron can serve the same purpose, Unless the shrinking becomes so rapid at the end that the proton grabs an adjoining electron and flips before it can interact with a nucleus that is far removed. This uncontrollable shrinking would be somewhat of a correlate to "momentum," or inertia, once then>2 shrinking started. > Since neutrinos can carry energy, and a pair can be created with no net spin, why don't excited nuclei use neutrino pair creation as a means of losing energy... Or- gaining it? Isn't that kind of what Fred Sparber has been saying? (i.e. light lepton = neutrino) >> As I understand it, the phonon quenching hypothesis doesn't produce any multi-MeV alphas to start with. Guess this is time when I should ask, what energy are you assuming for one of these "magical" Chubb alphas? >The energy is produced, already distributed throughout the lattice. Where is the real world model for this? > >Wait! Now you are guilty of stacking three unproven hypotheses one on top of the other. > Which three? Actually there are at least four: 1) D+D > 4He can be initiated at moderate energy 2) The 4He alpha has far less energy than expected 3) That alpha of lesser energy is100% restrained or quenched by the lattice so that no gamma can be found. 4) Even though the energy of each fusion is less, the total excess energy appears to be what we would expect from all multi-MeV alphas. You can't have it both ways. > >A commentator recently opined that, "after a great tragedy, fate often has a surprising way of providing a great gift." Maybe we are close to the unwrapping time. > Yes, but will we recognise it when we get it? Not so much will we recognize it but will we know what to do with it. Most nuclear engineers will admit that their predecessors totally blew one of the more recent big gifts - or was that the politicians, when they chose to give semi-monopoly power to a few big companies who designed reactors that few could afford because they not only dangerous but were also designed ... wait, never mind - I don't want to get off on another rant today. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 08:58:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31173; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:57:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:57:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3BB36B00.1A45 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:08:00 -0700 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OT]Global Consciousness Project References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010927110757.00aa6428 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qqjSb.0.-c7.dnqix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > The data is remarkable, but what exactly are these REG devices? They are FET-based Johnson noise devices (thermal noise) described in this abstract: http://www.princeton.edu/~rdnelson/reg.html Most of the research is published in the Journal of Scientific Exploration: http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/publist.html The new JSE web page is here: http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse.html Regards, Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 09:13:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA07014; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:12:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:12:38 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010927120940.00aa6428 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:13:12 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: The Times: nuclear reactors vulnerable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3Qf1y1.0.Wj1.s_qix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001330019-2001334212,00.html QUOTES: Nuclear reactors vulnerable to attack BY MARK HENDERSON, SCIENCE CORRESPONDENT ALMOST all of the world's 440 nuclear power stations would be vulnerable to terrorist attacks of the sort staged at the World Trade Centre . . . Though the plants are by far the most robust civilian buildings in the world, they would be unlikely to survive a direct hit from an airliner fully laden with fuel, the International Atomic Energy Agency said. The impact of a crash and high temperatures caused by burning aviation fuel could easily buckle the 4ft of concrete and steel cladding that protects reactor cores, David Kyd, the agency's chief spokesman, said. Automatic shutdown systems, which flood the reactor with water coolant in an emergency, would normally prevent an explosion but there would be a serious risk of a leak spreading radioactivity over a radius of up to 22 miles. . . . Contamination over hundreds of miles, as occurred after the Chernobyl disaster, is unlikely with more modern fuel and control rods, but radioactive pollution could be expected to persist for 10 to 15 years. . . . - JR From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 10:02:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA29321; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:01:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:01:26 -0700 From: ConexTom aol.com Message-ID: <6c.10a3f429.28e4b57c aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:01:48 EDT Subject: Will a Nuclear war collpase the world energy Grid ? To: svpvril yahoogroups.com, prj@mail.msen.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: ConexTom aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_6c.10a3f429.28e4b57c_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 Resent-Message-ID: <"GJsui.0.3A7.bjrix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_6c.10a3f429.28e4b57c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will a Nuclear War Destroy A Vortex in The Middle East & Collapse the Planet? According to the Anti-Gravity & The World Grid, all 20 vortexes must be kept in balance, if one vortex gets out of balance, the Earth energy grid could collapse. If there is a war in the Middle East, and a nuclear weapon is used, would that nuclear weapon destroy the vortex in the Middle East, and if so, would it collapse the world energy grid? I do not know the detailed physics. Also someone could misuse the vortex in the Middle East, by holding it hostage, since anyone can destroy it, including the Middle East, with a small nuclear weapon, and it could also collapse the world energy grid. There must be a away to make sure that the energy grids in the world and in the Middle East, can be managed and controlled in a safe way, without need for a nuclear war. The masses of citizens seem to have a desire to self self-destruct in their subconscious, by encouraging a nuclear war? All the TV shows and media communicate to the masses, that a Nuclear war is a no win scenario, everyone loses, so why do the masses not listen to the TV shows, and concluded that one should never have a nuclear war?. Are the masses of citizens being subliminally brainwashed to have a desire for a nuclear war? Has the shadow military governments decided that nuclear war is safe, and can be controlled, in the Middle East ? Respectfully, Thomas Clark tom rhfweb.com www.rhfweb.com\personal --part1_6c.10a3f429.28e4b57c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will a Nuclear War Destroy A Vortex in The Middle East &
Collapse the Planet?

According to the Anti-Gravity & The World Grid, all 20
vortexes must be kept in balance, if one vortex gets out of
balance, the Earth energy grid could collapse. If there is a war
in the Middle East, and a nuclear weapon is used, would that
nuclear weapon destroy the vortex in the Middle East, and if so,
would it collapse the world energy grid? I do not know the
detailed physics.  Also someone could misuse the vortex in the
Middle East, by holding it hostage, since anyone can destroy it,
including the Middle East, with a small nuclear weapon, and it
could also collapse the world energy grid. There must be a
away to make sure that the energy grids in the world and in the
Middle East, can be managed and controlled in a safe way,
without need for  a nuclear war.

The masses of citizens seem to have a desire to self self-destruct
in their subconscious, by encouraging a nuclear war?  All the
TV shows and media communicate to the masses, that a
Nuclear war is a no win scenario, everyone loses, so why do the
masses not listen to the TV shows, and concluded that one
should never have a nuclear war?.  Are the masses of citizens
being subliminally brainwashed to have a desire for a nuclear
war? Has the shadow military governments  decided that
nuclear war is safe, and can be controlled, in the Middle  East ?


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com\personal --part1_6c.10a3f429.28e4b57c_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 10:09:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA32524; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:08:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:08:55 -0700 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:14:33 -0700 (PDT) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Astounding transmutation data In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926183006.025a1398 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Pn1m53.0.2y7.dqrix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Could you give a detailed web address for this figure please. Hank On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Look at Fig. 2 in JCF3-16. I can't describe it well here. I hope many > readers can see it. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 10:16:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03306; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:16:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:16:00 -0700 Message-ID: <20010927171636.71055.qmail web20603.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:16:36 -0700 (PDT) From: harvey norris Subject: 16.5 Stator Volt testing of a "flux capacity" To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"2LY_v1.0.ap.Gxrix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I had formerly speculated that this process might case a vortexian water spin and loss of temperature of the medium. No spin was seen, and temp measurements have not been made. However extraction of energy from the process has been made and shown with meters at a JPEG placed at messageboard. It seemingly becomes possible to create voltage and amperage conduction from points of equal voltage potential, by allowing two phases of resonance to interact orthogonally in space. These two phases only out of three on a 120 degree phased AC alternator input allow for the fact that phase 1's resonance will have a full electric field, when phase 2 has a full magnetic field,(predominantly, but not fully in time) Phase 2's magnetic field can then cause deflection voltage via Lorentz Law to move charges at right angles to both fields on the equipotential points in the axial capacities electric field. Thus a flux capacity is just that, a capacity at right angles to magnetic flux, with output shown on the third right angle via Lorentz Law. To obtain these electric and magnetic fields for the best economy separate phasings of resonance are used, and then interacted orthogonally in space. HDN ===== Binary Resonant System http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 10:40:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA14197; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:39:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:39:37 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010927131905.04282db8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:32:28 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Astounding transmutation data In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926183006.025a1398 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"pzlS33.0.jT3.OHsix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hank scudder wrote: >Jed > Could you give a detailed web address for this figure please. > >. . . > > Look at Fig. 2 in JCF3-16. I can't describe it well here. I hope many > > readers can see it. That's a JCF3 Abstract, in this document: http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/file/jcf3abstract.pdf It is an Acrobat .pdf format. I think this is the Japanese version of Acrobat because I cannot read some pages, especially JCF3-12, and part of JCF3-1, where it says: "Excess power levels up to 9 [blank] was measured . . ." (The units are missing.) I told Takahashi about these problems. He says they will look into it. Fig. 2 shows the mass numbers and isotope ratios for the Mo transmutation product, for natural Mo, and for the Sr they started with. The numbers are, roughly: Detected Mo 92 10% 94 10% 95 10% 96 75% 97 5% 98 5% 100 0% Natural Mo (shown in Fig. 2, table 2, but this is from WebElements) 92Mo 14.84 at. % 94Mo 9.25 95Mo 15.92 96Mo 16.68 97Mo 9.55 98Mo 24.13 100Mo 9.63 Natural Sr (in table three, also from WebElements) 84Sr 0.56 86Sr 9.86 87Sr 7.00 88Sr 82.58 Sakano concludes: "Time dependence of numbers of Sr and Mo atoms is shown in Fig.1. There was no Mo at the beginning of the experiment. The number of Sr decreased and Mo increased as time passed. Reproducibility of these experiments is good. Similar results were obtained in the other 2 cases. We can consider that these experiments are reproduced qualitatively." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 11:32:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07009; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:31:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:31:34 -0700 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:26:36 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Astounding transmutation data To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <003b01c14781$f1cecde0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926183006.025a1398 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010927131905.04282db8 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"s6YIF1.0.Qj1.62tix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Konichiwa (or is that Wazzzzzzabi), I cannot read most pages either but was struck by this piece of an abstract: "Observation of low energy nuclear reaction induced by D2 gas permeation through the multilayer Pd film - Transmutation of Sr to Mo " Two big things here: 1) nuclear reaction induced by deuterium permeation through a multilayer Pd film caused by only a *gas pressure* gradient !! 2) could it be coincidental that they chose to use R. Mills' two main catalysts here - Ar and Sr? Perhaps they have a better explanation for the excess energy than does BLP with the transmutation results. Can anybody read the whole thing to see if Mills is cited? Mitsuru SAKANO, Yasuhiro IWAMURA*, Takehiko ITOH and Satosi SAKAI Advanced Technology Research Center, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. We observed low energy nuclear reaction induced by deuterium permeation through a multilayer Pd film caused by D2 gas pressure gradient between each sides of the sample. We installed a device of the X-ray Photoelectron Spectroscopy (XPS) in the D2 gas permeations apparatus (1,2) and carried out element analysis of the nuclear products on the surface of the sample without removing it from the equipment. The multilayer Pd film is made by Ar ion beam sputtering method We add Sr on the surface of the thin Pd film by applying electric field in 1mM Sr(OD)2 solution. The multilayer Pd with Sr is introduced into the vacuum chamber. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 12:31:56 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01953; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:28:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:28:27 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010927151355.025e2dd8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:27:18 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Astounding transmutation data In-Reply-To: <003b01c14781$f1cecde0$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926183006.025a1398 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010927131905.04282db8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"W5zRx3.0.MU.Qttix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: >"Observation of low energy nuclear reaction induced by D2 gas permeation >through the multilayer Pd film - Transmutation of Sr to Mo " > >Two big things here: >1) nuclear reaction induced by deuterium permeation through a multilayer >Pd film caused by only a *gas pressure* gradient !! Yes. It is similar to the Case and Arata experiments. However, the effect is very small compared to their electrolysis experiments. >2) could it be coincidental that they chose to use R. Mills' two main >catalysts here - Ar and Sr? Perhaps they have a better explanation for the >excess energy than does BLP with the transmutation results. In Abstract #15, they transmute Cs into Pr, using the same technique. >Can anybody read the whole thing to see if Mills is cited? He is not cited. I doubt they have heard of him, or if they have, I doubt they take him seriously. They cite only three papers they themselves published. It is a pity people cannot read this. Perhaps I should violate their copyright a little, and put more the text here. Following the segment Beene quoted, it says: . . . An Experimental Procedure is similar as a previous report on transmutation of Cs into Pr. XPS analysis is performed under the following assumptions; (1) The analyzed region is a circle of 5 mm in diameter and 20 angstrom in depth. The depth corresponds to the average path length of photoelectrons. [2] Atomic number of a detected element is calculated by the ratio of Pd peak intensity and the ionization cross section of the element. Time dependence of numbers of Sr and Mo atoms is shown in Fig.1. There was no Mo at the beginning of the experiment. The number of Sr decreased and Mo increased as time passed. Reproducibility of these experiments is good. Similar results were obtained in the other 2 cases. We can consider that these experiments are reproduced qualitatively. In order to investigate isotope distribution, the sample after the experiment is analyzed by the secondary ion mass spectrometry (SIMS). Fig.2 shows the isotopic anomaly of Mo. The isotopic distribution of the detected Mo (Fig.2(i)) is different from natural isotopic abundance of Mo (Fig.2(ii)). The characteristic feature of the detected Mo is that mass 96 is largest in the isotopes of Mo for the two cases of the Sr experiments. On the other hand, the major isotope of Sr is mass 88 (Fig.2(iii)). Therefore it is supposed that the next reaction can explain the results of SIMS analysis. 88/38Mo --> 96/42Sr (Eq. 1) It might be possible to make an interpretation that Cs was transmuted to Pr, and the result is consistent with the EINR (Electron-Induced Nuclear Reaction) model [3] that we proposed.We confirmed that no change of Sr and no other elements on the Pd sample were observed in a blank experiment (using H2 gas), and that qualitative reproducibility was obtained. [References] (1)Y.Iwamura, T.Itoh, and M.Sakano; Proc.of ICCF-8, Lerici(La Spezia),Italy May 21-26, 2000,p141 (2) Y.Iwamura, M.Sakano and T.Itoh; Proc.of ISEM-10, Tokyo, Japan, May 13-16, 2001, p383 (3)Y.Iwamura, N.Gotoh, T.Itoh and I.Toyoda; Fusion Technol., 33, (1998) 476 [End Quote] - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 12:45:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA09689; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:44:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:44:25 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010927152946.0258cac8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:38:05 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: JCF3 will be in Japanese, by the way Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"9qtgF2.0.JN2.O6uix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Even though the JCF3 abstracts are in English, I expect the presentations will be in Japanese (except #5 and #13). That is how JCF2 worked, and it is the usual practice at Japanese physics conferences. The abstracts and most viewgraphs are in English, which is most helpful to me. It is rather like watching a movie with subtitles. English is the lingua franca of science, just as Latin was in the 17th century. This bugs some people, but not the scientists themselves, in my experience. The increasing popularity of English may be one of the reasons some extremist Muslim sects resent the U.S., along with our movies, mass media, religion and so on. There is far more scientific material published in English than any other language, and the trend in increasing. Here are some stats from 1981: Physics & biology 85% English, medicine 73%, chemistry, mathematics 68%. This was a 30% increase compared to 15 years earlier, and the numbers are probably higher today. See David Crystal, "English as a Global Language," (Cambridge University Press, 1997), p. 102. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 13:07:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA17946; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:06:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:06:30 -0700 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:01:15 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Astounding transmutation data To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <006501c1478f$2a8a80e0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926183006.025a1398 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010927131905.04282db8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010927151355.025e2dd8 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"iwFgK1.0.AO4.6Ruix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > >2) could it be coincidental that they chose to use R. Mills' two main > >catalysts here - Ar and Sr? > In Abstract #15, they transmute Cs into Pr, using the same technique. Well, well. Guess what the next most effective Mills catalyst is? > He is not cited. I doubt they have heard of him, or if they have, I doubt they take him seriously. They cite only three papers they themselves published. I find rather curious out of all the 100+ elements in the periodic table, that these researchers have produced positive results for only these two, Sr and Cs, (or are there more?) and that those two are Mills' prime hydrocatalysis elements, and that they use argon implantation, and Ar is a Mills catalyst, and they do not take him seriously. If what Rothwell says is true, their ignorance of prior research makes them subject to not just ridicule but accusations of professional misconduct. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 14:23:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21319; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:22:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:22:50 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010927171004.025e2dd8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:23:20 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Astounding transmutation data In-Reply-To: <006501c1478f$2a8a80e0$aa69fea9 cpq> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926183006.025a1398 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010927131905.04282db8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010927151355.025e2dd8 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"QTp9b2.0.0D5.fYvix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: . . . those two are Mills' prime >hydrocatalysis elements, and that they use argon implantation, and Ar is a >Mills catalyst, and they do not take him seriously. > >If what Rothwell says is true, their ignorance of prior research makes >them subject to not just ridicule but accusations of professional misconduct. Let us not jump to conclusions. Bear in mind that I am only *guessing* they have never heard of Mills. I will ask them if they have. There can be no "misconduct" if they have never heard of Mills or his theories. He is, after all, an obscure researcher far from the mainstream who has seldom published, and who has never been independently replicated as far as I know. Frankly, I do not see why anyone should take him seriously before he is replicated. Also, bear in mind that the people at Mitsubishi have their own their theory, which guides their choice of materials, and which they claim predicts these outcomes. Why should they give the Mills theory more credence than their own? I know nothing about theory, but I know scientists, and I have never heard of one who would do that. For that matter, I expect a dozen other theories could account for these results. Why should Iwamura pay special attention to Mills, rather than to the more conventional nuclear theories like his own? I cannot judge, but Iwamura may have more skill as theoretician than Mills does. His papers are more clearly written, and his experiments have worked 100% of the time for seven years. Mills may also be experiencing unbroken success, but he has not talked about it much, or revealed as many details as Iwamura et al., so he has less credibility. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 15:06:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA08624; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:06:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:06:12 -0700 Message-ID: <008b01c147b9$91eaf1a0$1d5bccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926183006.025a1398 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010927131905.04282db8@pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c14781$f1cecde0$aa69fea9@cpq> Subject: Re: Astounding transmutation data Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:59:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"fRml52.0.c62.JBwix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed can correct me here, but I believe the apparatus used in these experiments was originally built some time ago during the Japanese NHE initiative, which went down a blind alley to failure. This particular apparatus is elegant in design, for it uses a thin target film separating two chambers with the ability for refined instrumentation to look at the reaction site as they occur, something not possible in other experiments. The apparatus is very expensive, but it has enabled the Japanese researchers to get consistent, repeatable excess energy yield with good instrumentation. More importantly, as in the present case, they can vary the physical structure of the target by deposition technologies to see what happens. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 15:22:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA15695; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:21:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:21:34 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010927181305.00aa7370 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:22:08 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Astounding transmutation data In-Reply-To: <008b01c147b9$91eaf1a0$1d5bccd1 asus> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926183006.025a1398 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010927131905.04282db8 pop.mindspring.com> <003b01c14781$f1cecde0$aa69fea9 cpq> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"JWnXR1.0.6r3.jPwix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >Jed can correct me here, but I believe the apparatus used in these >experiments was originally built some time ago during the Japanese NHE >initiative, which went down a blind alley to failure. Not as far as I know. They do not mention NHE support in the papers I just glanced at. This technique, and this program, have been underway at Mitsubishi starting around 1992, as I recall, with consistent success since 1994. >This particular apparatus is elegant in design, for it uses a thin target >film separating two chambers with the ability for refined instrumentation >to look at the reaction site as they occur . . . This instrument, which allows real-time observations, was developed a few years ago. Earlier versions also employed thin target films separating two chambers, with electrolysis instead of gas loading. Researchers monitored heat and gamma rays on line, but they had to stop the process and take the cells apart to study transmutations. >. . . something not possible in other experiments. They have made many important and clever innovations, as Mike says, both in instrumentation and in cathode fabrication. This shows what money & brains united can do for CF. It is a terrible shame the NHE had only money, and people like Mizuno and Storms have only brains. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 15:57:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31079; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:56:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:56:26 -0700 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:51:23 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Astounding transmutation data To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <00a501c147a6$ef405b00$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010926183006.025a1398 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010927131905.04282db8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010927151355.025e2dd8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010927171004.025e2dd8 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"aJgFe1.0.Kb7.Pwwix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Jed Rothwell" > Let us not jump to conclusions. Bear in mind that I am only *guessing* they > have never heard of Mills. I will ask them if they have. > Also, bear in mind that the people at Mitsubishi have their own their > theory, which guides their choice of materials, and which they claim > predicts these outcomes. Why should they give the Mills theory more > credence than their own? Because, like more than a few things in that part of the world, "their own" may sometimes only mean "that which was once someone else's." Take for instance, NEC and the CPU. NEC kept reverse engineering the Intel x86 design for years, changing it slightly, and dodging Intel in court until they finally realized it would just be cheaper just to pay royalties. Mills has published extensively in Fusion Technology going back 10 years. These researchers also published there recently. It is pretty unlikely that would not have subscribed to FT for many years, in their line of work. I don't like researchers, foreign or domestic, who try this "I didn't know" thing when a simple web or Dialog search would have given them notice of similar research done by others. It's called "due diligence." Whether or not they truly arrived at similar conclusions based on a different theory can be another matter, but it doesn't relieve them of the responsibility to find it what has been already published. I personally have made any number of earth-shaking and ostensibly independent discoveries, only to find out with a 5 minute web search that somebody beat me to the patent office years by thirty years. They should have cited Mills, even if it is coincidental and they have other good, maybe even better theories, for this particular choice of materials - and if they deny knowing about his work, they should explain their lack of due diligence. I think it would be prudent to warn them of that. Also, Mills has taken out Japanese and WPO patents. Patents are one thing people like Mitsubishi relish like soy sauce so they had to know of the similarities. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 16:36:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA10227; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:36:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:36:27 -0700 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:44:23 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: hank scudder cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fig. 2 in JCF3-16 ???Re: Astounding transmutation data In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"SVUAN3.0.jV2.xVxix" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Folks, What is "Fig. 2 in JCF3-16" ? Please. And where may we see Fig. 2 in JCF3-16 ? Please. What are we looking for? Please. JH On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, hank scudder wrote: > Jed > Could you give a detailed web address for this figure please. > Hank > > On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Look at Fig. 2 in JCF3-16. I can't describe it well here. I hope many > > readers can see it. > > > > - Jed > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 23:24:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA22606; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:24:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:24:00 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Mills' hearsay Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:24:01 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001601c145e0$9416d640$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BB0CACA.C3E3ADF5@ix.netcom.com> <002701c146a9$f51cb080$aa69fea9@cpq> <005901c146e3$d2339180$aa69fea9@cpq> <7775rtkhh4841fokluvuv7684k2alet4f8@4ax.com> <000f01c 1476a$6019e5e0$aa69fea9 cpq> In-Reply-To: <000f01c1476a$6019e5e0$aa69fea9 cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA22584 Resent-Message-ID: <"wEUmv.0.6X5.0U1jx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:37:53 -0700: >From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > >> No, I'm asking for a graph showing the 27.2 eV spectral line, or any of >> the higher energy lines one might expect from shrinkage, > >Try figure 4 and especially figure 5 in "Anomalous Hydrogen/Strontium >Discharge" by Randell L. Mills, Mark Nansteel, Ying Lu. I don't know if it >is online or not. I have only a photocopy. Unfortunately, all the figures are missing from the online version of this document. I suspect it hails from the early times when the webmaster had a bad habit of putting the text in one document, and the figures in another. > >> Yes, the requirement for 782 keV is somewhat more extreme... > >Although this exact mechanism seems unlikely, you might get two thirds or >more, maybe way more, of that depletion back if the "captured electron" >comes from somewhere else in the system. As you probably have read, >Zimmereman thinks this is preposterous. No I hadn't, but note that where it comes from doesn't make much difference. Even if comes from infinitely far away, by the time it gets to the "ground state orbit", it has only lost 13.6 eV. Anything else comes from the remainder of trip between the Bohr orbit and the nucleus. > >Equally preposterous is the idea that some proton mass has been drained from >the shrinking proton/ neutron, ala subquarks. But that would be the way I >would be leaning... This might also make EC easier. Not quite sure what you are referring to here. > >> Which "stuff" is that? > >The deuterium in heavy water - heavy water is the moderator in a CANDU >reactor. > >> ... what form does the instability take... > >Things like spontaneous decay continuously over long periods, even years >after the heavy water has been removed from a reactor. Things like finding >that a much larger portion (than ever imagined or taught) - of the neutron >flux in such a reactor comes from the moderator, rather than the fuel. You >won't find this in any text on reactor design...What you will find is >comments like, the CANDU is the most efficient reactor ever built, etc... Creation of Mills catalysts by action of ionising radiation in the water perhaps? (Both D atoms, and O++ will function as a Mills catalyst, not to mention the fact that free D atoms are available to undergo shrinkage). > >> While possible, the energy doesn't add up, unless you have two fusions >followed by an alpha emission. > >What energy levels are you assuming and why don't they add up? What energy >are you assuming for one of these "magical" Chubb alphas, the kind that get >quenched in the matrix? Neutron absorption generally releases 6-8 MeV / neutron. Absorption of a deuterino with release of an alpha would probably release on the order of 4-10 MeV, depending on the specific reaction. Fusion to He4 on the other hand releases 23.8 MeV, and as far as I know actual energies reported are close to this figure. As for the magical Chubb alphas, I'm assuming the same 23.8 MeV, only distributed not concentrated in a single particle. > >> You don't need two neutrons. Nuclear absorption of a shrunken D along with >it's shrunken electron can serve the same purpose, > >Unless the shrinking becomes so rapid at the end that the proton grabs an >adjoining electron and flips before it can interact with a nucleus that is >far removed. This uncontrollable shrinking would be somewhat of a correlate >to "momentum," or inertia, once then>2 shrinking started. I doubt there is any question of "inertia", because each shrinkage has to be catalyzed. Even if this were not a slow process, I see no mechanism to support the "inertia" you refer to. I think a more likely mechanism is that a highly shrunken hydrino/deuterino would fuse with a neighbouring nucleus, with possible attendant absorption of the shrunken electron (depending on where the new nucleus falls on the binding energy curve). I.e. neutron starved nuclei have a stronger tendency to undergo EC with greater "starvation". If an electron is presented to such a nucleus "on a platter" as it were, then presumably the EC half life would be reduced by so many orders of magnitude that the reaction would essentially occur concurrently with the absorption of the baryons. > >> Since neutrinos can carry energy, and a pair can be created with no net >spin, why don't excited nuclei use neutrino pair creation as a means of >losing energy... > >Or- gaining it? Isn't that kind of what Fred Sparber has been saying? (i.e. >light lepton = neutrino) I don't see how it could gain energy. My main problem with LLs being neutrinos is that LLs are charged, while neutrinos are not, and I believe that charge is responsible for mass, hence neutrinos should be massless (I have no faith at all in recent experiments purporting to show that the neutrino has mass. Partly because the experiments themselves have so many built in opportunities for systematic error, and partly because I have no faith in solar models). > >>> As I understand it, the phonon quenching hypothesis doesn't produce any >multi-MeV alphas to start with. > >Guess this is time when I should ask, what energy are you assuming for one >of these "magical" Chubb alphas? See above. > >>The energy is produced, already distributed throughout the lattice. > >Where is the real world model for this? I already mentioned the Chubb's model, are you asking for a specific reference (see http://www.angelfire.com/va/schubb/), or does "real world" mean something else? > >> >Wait! Now you are guilty of stacking three unproven hypotheses one on top >of the other. > >> Which three? > >Actually there are at least four: >1) D+D > 4He can be initiated at moderate energy As I understand it, the Chubbs model assumes a possible increase in tunnelling distance under certain circumstances. Deuterinos are an alternative, providing electron shielding at very short range. >2) The 4He alpha has far less energy than expected The reaction itself doesn't, only the particle itself carries less of that energy in the Chubb's model. >3) That alpha of lesser energy is100% restrained or quenched by the lattice >so that no gamma can be found. This is the flip side of the coin which resulted in the tunnelling in the first place. It is actually one and the same mechanism (I think). >4) Even though the energy of each fusion is less, the total excess energy >appears to be what we would expect from all multi-MeV alphas. You can't have >it both ways. I don't want it "both ways", the total energy is not less. > >> >A commentator recently opined that, "after a great tragedy, fate often >has a surprising way of providing a great gift." Maybe we are close to the >unwrapping time. > >> Yes, but will we recognise it when we get it? > >Not so much will we recognize it but will we know what to do with it. Most >nuclear engineers will admit that their predecessors totally blew one of the >more recent big gifts - or was that the politicians, when they chose to give >semi-monopoly power to a few big companies who designed reactors that few >could afford because they not only dangerous but were also designed ... >wait, never mind - I don't want to get off on another rant today. [snip] Jones, you are beginning to sound more and more like the other Jones (Mitchell) ;). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 23:58:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA29583; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:58:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 23:58:03 -0700 From: ConexTom aol.com Message-ID: <2f.1b64ca0d.28e57991 aol.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 02:58:25 EDT Subject: The FDA, The Radiation Protection ACT, & Funds From Congress! To: prj mail.msen.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com CC: ConexTom aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_2f.1b64ca0d.28e57991_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10536 Resent-Message-ID: <"_YZYj3.0.8E7.xz1jx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_2f.1b64ca0d.28e57991_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The FDA, The Radiation Protection ACT, & Funds From Congress! The Radiation Protection Act of 1968, was designed by Congressman to protect the general public from abuses of radiation technologies. But since 1973, the FDA, and the FCC, have not received the funds, and have not been enforcing the Radiation protection Act of 1968, in its true spirit. I filed a petition with the FDA (Petition filed on 10/16/97 with the FDA Docket 97P-0434/CP1 ) asking them to enforce the Radiation protection act, and they would not. Also I contacted the FBI, and the FCC, who told me that they do not have the funds available to enforce the Radiation Protection Act laws. I also sent letters to my congressman in Michigan asking him to onsider legislation to protect the general public from radiation abuses. I supplied the congressman with the evidences, and the technologies needed to protect the general public from radiation abuses. I received a letter of thank you from the congressman. I also recieved a thank you letter from the Prime Minister in the UK, for informing him of radiation abuses in the UK, and asking the UK to develope laws to ban such abuses. I could have filed a case in federal court with the FDA to force them to enforce the laws, but I decide to start the Radiation Health Foundation Inc. instead, which is a public charity set up to get funds to protect the general public from radiation abuses. Since the technology presently exists to use satellites, lasers, and radionic devices as described below in detail to change the genes, memes, and proteins structures of human beings, there needs to stronger laws developed to prevent secret organizations and organized crime from using such technologies on the general public. Also a very simple force field can be built for the home or office to block out many radiations which can affect the genes. I have the principles for the designs of such force fields posted at my web site at www.rhfweb.com >From the book Genetics Principles and Analysis, Daniel L. Hartl, I have found the process by which a gene mutation, or a rna change, or a protein synthesis change can change the molecules in human organism. Genetic traits in human beings can easily be changed by means of infrared lasers which mutate either the gene nucleotides, the rna template, or the process of transcription of a proteins (polypetide sequence). The color of they eye can be changed by the modification of genes or protein synthesis of the pigments which make up eye color. The size of the nucleotides in a Gene is 2nm, .000000002 meters. By the process of interferometry, sound waves, and infrared waves can be mixed to create wavelengths down to 10^-40, and for gene modification of the nucleotide one only needs sound waves, gravity waves, or light waves in the range of 10^-9. For modifying the transcription process from an RNA messenger to the protein synthesis, one only needs sound waves or light waves down to the size of the amino acid of protein which is 3 times the size of a genes nucleotide. I also have posted at my web site at www.rhfweb,.com, the technologies and circuits which can be used to create gravity waves down to 10^-40, and radionic templates which can be used to create genetic or rna templates by means of sound waves, or gravity waves generated by electronic circuits or by directed energies coming from satellites, lasers, and mind control projects. Also the technique of inserting genetic material into a body through the skin, is called telephoresis , and has been around since the time of the convenant of the arc, where the arc was a radionic device which transmitted sound or gravity waves in the form of genetic templates through the skin. This process can be designed to day with electronic circuits as I described above, since about 1980. For those that do not know, the process of protein synthesis form genes is as follows: Chromosome (DNA Duplex (Nucleotide Pairs (AG,TG,GG))>Transcription (One strand of DNA opens up to make a messenger RNA template which is one strand)>messenger RNA(ATG Nucleotides)>Translation TRNA Bases(AUG)>Creation of a sequence of polypetides in protein by means of the TRNA. For instance TRNA (AUG) creates the methione amino acid in a protein. Every amino acid in protein can be made from a TRNA template. The TRNA template can be also artificially made by sound waves, gravity waves, or radionics template devices and circuits, and directed energies from satellites, and mind control projects. Respectfully, Thomas Clark www.rhfweb.com tom rhfweb.com --part1_2f.1b64ca0d.28e57991_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The FDA,  The Radiation Protection ACT,
& Funds From Congress!

The Radiation Protection Act of 1968, was designed by
Congressman to protect the general public from abuses of
radiation technologies. But since 1973, the FDA, and the FCC,
have not received the funds, and have not been enforcing the
Radiation protection Act of 1968, in its true spirit. I filed a
petition with the FDA (Petition filed on 10/16/97 with the FDA
Docket 97P-0434/CP1 ) asking them to enforce the Radiation
protection act, and they would not.  Also I contacted the FBI,
and the FCC, who told me that they do not have the funds
available to enforce the Radiation Protection Act laws.  I also
sent letters to my congressman in Michigan asking him to
onsider legislation to protect the general public from radiation
abuses. I supplied the congressman with the evidences, and the
technologies needed to protect the general public from radiation
abuses. I received a letter of thank you from the congressman.
I also recieved a thank you letter from the Prime Minister in the UK,
for informing him of radiation abuses in the UK, and asking the UK
to develope laws to ban such abuses. I could have filed a case in  
federal court with the FDA to force them to enforce the laws,
but I decide to start the Radiation Health Foundation Inc. instead,
which is a public charity set up to get funds to protect the general
public from radiation abuses.

Since the technology presently exists to use satellites, lasers,
and radionic devices as described below in detail to change the
genes, memes, and proteins structures of human beings, there
needs to stronger laws developed to prevent secret
organizations and organized crime from using such technologies
on the general public. Also a very simple force field can be built
for the home or office to block out many radiations which can
affect the genes.  I have the principles for the designs of such
force fields posted at my web site at www.rhfweb.com

From the book Genetics Principles and Analysis, Daniel L.
Hartl, I have found the process by which a gene mutation, or a
rna change, or a protein synthesis change can change the
molecules in human organism.  Genetic traits in human beings
can easily be changed by means of infrared lasers which mutate
either the gene nucleotides, the rna template, or the process of
transcription of a proteins (polypetide sequence).  The color of
they eye can be changed by the modification of genes or protein
synthesis of the pigments which make up eye color. The size of
the nucleotides in a Gene  is 2nm, .000000002 meters. By the
process of interferometry, sound waves, and infrared waves can
be mixed to create wavelengths down to 10^-40, and for gene
modification of the nucleotide one only needs sound waves,
gravity waves, or light waves in the range of 10^-9.  For
modifying the transcription process from an RNA messenger to
the protein synthesis, one only needs sound waves or light
waves down to the size of the amino acid of protein which is 3
times the size of a genes nucleotide. I also have posted at my
web site at www.rhfweb,.com, the technologies and circuits
which can be used to create gravity waves down to 10^-40, and
radionic templates which can be used to create genetic or rna
templates by means of sound waves, or gravity waves generated
by electronic circuits or by directed energies coming from
satellites, lasers, and mind control projects.  Also the technique
of inserting genetic material into a body through the skin, is
called telephoresis , and has been around since the time of the
convenant of the arc, where the arc was a radionic device which
transmitted sound or gravity waves in the form of genetic
templates through the skin. This process can be designed to day
with electronic circuits as I described above, since about 1980.
For those that do not know, the process of protein synthesis
form genes is as follows:


Chromosome (DNA Duplex (Nucleotide Pairs
(AG,TG,GG))>Transcription (One strand of DNA opens up to
make a messenger RNA template which is one
strand)>messenger RNA(ATG Nucleotides)>Translation
TRNA Bases(AUG)>Creation of a sequence of polypetides in
protein by means of the TRNA. For instance TRNA (AUG)
creates the methione amino acid in a protein. Every amino acid
in protein can be made from a TRNA template.  The TRNA
template can be also artificially made by sound waves, gravity
waves, or radionics template devices and circuits, and directed
energies from satellites, and mind control projects.

Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
www.rhfweb.com
tom rhfweb.com
--part1_2f.1b64ca0d.28e57991_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 28 05:57:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA04068; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 05:56:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 05:56:47 -0700 Message-ID: <00b201c1481d$41ad1c40$e49b09ca a2a> From: "eximcon" To: , Cc: References: <2f.1b64ca0d.28e57991 aol.com> Subject: The FDA, The Radiation Protection ACT, & Funds From Congress! Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:58:08 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0119_01C14847.218F4580" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"yRwAN.0.P_.EE7jx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0119_01C14847.218F4580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I AM EXPERIMENTAING WITH SIMPLE RADIO ACTIVE APPARATUS FOR=20 LABORATORY TEACHING LIKE ALPHA RAY TRACK,=20 SPINTAHRISCOPES, ETC AND WISH TO KNOW FROM=20 WHERE TO OBTAIN ALPHA AND BETA RAY SOURCES. . MAHESH ARORA ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ConexTom aol.com=20 To: prj mail.msen.com ; vortex-l@eskimo.com=20 Cc: ConexTom aol.com=20 Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 12:28 PM Subject: The FDA, The Radiation Protection ACT, & Funds From Congress! The FDA, The Radiation Protection ACT,=20 & Funds From Congress!=20 The Radiation Protection Act of 1968, was designed by=20 Congressman to protect the general public from abuses of=20 radiation technologies. But since 1973, the FDA, and the FCC,=20 have not received the funds, and have not been enforcing the=20 Radiation protection Act of 1968, in its true spirit. I filed a=20 petition with the FDA (Petition filed on 10/16/97 with the FDA=20 Docket 97P-0434/CP1 ) asking them to enforce the Radiation=20 protection act, and they would not. Also I contacted the FBI,=20 and the FCC, who told me that they do not have the funds=20 available to enforce the Radiation Protection Act laws. I also=20 sent letters to my congressman in Michigan asking him to=20 onsider legislation to protect the general public from radiation=20 abuses. I supplied the congressman with the evidences, and the=20 technologies needed to protect the general public from radiation=20 abuses. I received a letter of thank you from the congressman.=20 I also recieved a thank you letter from the Prime Minister in the UK,=20 for informing him of radiation abuses in the UK, and asking the UK=20 to develope laws to ban such abuses. I could have filed a case in =20 federal court with the FDA to force them to enforce the laws,=20 but I decide to start the Radiation Health Foundation Inc. instead,=20 which is a public charity set up to get funds to protect the general=20 public from radiation abuses.=20 Since the technology presently exists to use satellites, lasers,=20 and radionic devices as described below in detail to change the=20 genes, memes, and proteins structures of human beings, there=20 needs to stronger laws developed to prevent secret=20 organizations and organized crime from using such technologies=20 on the general public. Also a very simple force field can be built=20 for the home or office to block out many radiations which can=20 affect the genes. I have the principles for the designs of such=20 force fields posted at my web site at www.rhfweb.com=20 From the book Genetics Principles and Analysis, Daniel L.=20 Hartl, I have found the process by which a gene mutation, or a=20 rna change, or a protein synthesis change can change the=20 molecules in human organism. Genetic traits in human beings=20 can easily be changed by means of infrared lasers which mutate=20 either the gene nucleotides, the rna template, or the process of=20 transcription of a proteins (polypetide sequence). The color of=20 they eye can be changed by the modification of genes or protein=20 synthesis of the pigments which make up eye color. The size of=20 the nucleotides in a Gene is 2nm, .000000002 meters. By the=20 process of interferometry, sound waves, and infrared waves can=20 be mixed to create wavelengths down to 10^-40, and for gene=20 modification of the nucleotide one only needs sound waves,=20 gravity waves, or light waves in the range of 10^-9. For=20 modifying the transcription process from an RNA messenger to=20 the protein synthesis, one only needs sound waves or light=20 waves down to the size of the amino acid of protein which is 3=20 times the size of a genes nucleotide. I also have posted at my=20 web site at www.rhfweb,.com, the technologies and circuits=20 which can be used to create gravity waves down to 10^-40, and=20 radionic templates which can be used to create genetic or rna=20 templates by means of sound waves, or gravity waves generated=20 by electronic circuits or by directed energies coming from=20 satellites, lasers, and mind control projects. Also the technique=20 of inserting genetic material into a body through the skin, is=20 called telephoresis , and has been around since the time of the=20 convenant of the arc, where the arc was a radionic device which=20 transmitted sound or gravity waves in the form of genetic=20 templates through the skin. This process can be designed to day=20 with electronic circuits as I described above, since about 1980.=20 For those that do not know, the process of protein synthesis=20 form genes is as follows:=20 Chromosome (DNA Duplex (Nucleotide Pairs=20 (AG,TG,GG))>Transcription (One strand of DNA opens up to=20 make a messenger RNA template which is one=20 strand)>messenger RNA(ATG Nucleotides)>Translation=20 TRNA Bases(AUG)>Creation of a sequence of polypetides in=20 protein by means of the TRNA. For instance TRNA (AUG)=20 creates the methione amino acid in a protein. Every amino acid=20 in protein can be made from a TRNA template. The TRNA=20 template can be also artificially made by sound waves, gravity=20 waves, or radionics template devices and circuits, and directed=20 energies from satellites, and mind control projects.=20 Respectfully,=20 Thomas Clark=20 www.rhfweb.com=20 tom rhfweb.com=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0119_01C14847.218F4580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I AM EXPERIMENTAING WITH SIMPLE RADIO = ACTIVE=20 APPARATUS FOR
LABORATORY TEACHING LIKE ALPHA RAY = TRACK,=20
SPINTAHRISCOPES, ETC AND WISH TO KNOW = FROM=20
WHERE TO OBTAIN ALPHA AND BETA RAY=20 SOURCES.
.
MAHESH ARORA
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ConexTom@aol.com=20
To: prj@mail.msen.com ; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, = 2001 12:28=20 PM
Subject: The FDA, The Radiation = Protection ACT, & Funds From Congress!

The FDA, =  The=20 Radiation Protection ACT,
& Funds From Congress!

The = Radiation=20 Protection Act of 1968, was designed by
Congressman to protect the = general=20 public from abuses of
radiation technologies. But since 1973, the = FDA, and=20 the FCC,
have not received the funds, and have not been enforcing = the=20
Radiation protection Act of 1968, in its true spirit. I filed a=20
petition with the FDA (Petition filed on 10/16/97 with the FDA =
Docket=20 97P-0434/CP1 ) asking them to enforce the Radiation
protection = act, and=20 they would not.  Also I contacted the FBI,
and the FCC, who = told me=20 that they do not have the funds
available to enforce the Radiation = Protection Act laws.  I also
sent letters to my congressman = in=20 Michigan asking him to
onsider legislation to protect the general = public=20 from radiation
abuses. I supplied the congressman with the = evidences, and=20 the
technologies needed to protect the general public from = radiation=20
abuses. I received a letter of thank you from the congressman. =
I also=20 recieved a thank you letter from the Prime Minister in the UK,
for = informing him of radiation abuses in the UK, and asking the UK
to = develope=20 laws to ban such abuses. I could have filed a case in   =
federal court=20 with the FDA to force them to enforce the laws,
but I decide to = start the=20 Radiation Health Foundation Inc. instead,
which is a public = charity set up=20 to get funds to protect the general
public from radiation abuses.=20

Since the technology presently exists to use satellites, = lasers,=20
and radionic devices as described below in detail to change the =
genes,=20 memes, and proteins structures of human beings, there
needs to = stronger=20 laws developed to prevent secret
organizations and organized crime = from=20 using such technologies
on the general public. Also a very simple = force=20 field can be built
for the home or office to block out many = radiations=20 which can
affect the genes.  I have the principles for the = designs of=20 such
force fields posted at my web site at www.rhfweb.com =

From the=20 book Genetics Principles and Analysis, Daniel L.
Hartl, I have = found the=20 process by which a gene mutation, or a
rna change, or a protein = synthesis=20 change can change the
molecules in human organism.  Genetic = traits in=20 human beings
can easily be changed by means of infrared lasers = which=20 mutate
either the gene nucleotides, the rna template, or the = process of=20
transcription of a proteins (polypetide sequence).  The color = of=20
they eye can be changed by the modification of genes or protein=20
synthesis of the pigments which make up eye color. The size of =
the=20 nucleotides in a Gene  is 2nm, .000000002 meters. By the =
process of=20 interferometry, sound waves, and infrared waves can
be mixed to = create=20 wavelengths down to 10^-40, and for gene
modification of the = nucleotide=20 one only needs sound waves,
gravity waves, or light waves in the = range of=20 10^-9.  For
modifying the transcription process from an RNA = messenger=20 to
the protein synthesis, one only needs sound waves or light =
waves=20 down to the size of the amino acid of protein which is 3
times the = size of=20 a genes nucleotide. I also have posted at my
web site at = www.rhfweb,.com,=20 the technologies and circuits
which can be used to create gravity = waves=20 down to 10^-40, and
radionic templates which can be used to create = genetic=20 or rna
templates by means of sound waves, or gravity waves = generated=20
by electronic circuits or by directed energies coming from =
satellites,=20 lasers, and mind control projects.  Also the technique
of = inserting=20 genetic material into a body through the skin, is
called = telephoresis ,=20 and has been around since the time of the
convenant of the arc, = where the=20 arc was a radionic device which
transmitted sound or gravity waves = in the=20 form of genetic
templates through the skin. This process can be = designed=20 to day
with electronic circuits as I described above, since about = 1980.=20
For those that do not know, the process of protein synthesis =
form=20 genes is as follows:


Chromosome (DNA Duplex (Nucleotide = Pairs=20
(AG,TG,GG))>Transcription (One strand of DNA opens up to =
make a=20 messenger RNA template which is one
strand)>messenger RNA(ATG=20 Nucleotides)>Translation
TRNA Bases(AUG)>Creation of a = sequence of=20 polypetides in
protein by means of the TRNA. For instance TRNA = (AUG)=20
creates the methione amino acid in a protein. Every amino acid =
in=20 protein can be made from a TRNA template.  The TRNA
template = can be=20 also artificially made by sound waves, gravity
waves, or radionics = template devices and circuits, and directed
energies from = satellites, and=20 mind control projects.

Respectfully,


Thomas Clark=20
www.rhfweb.com
tom rhfweb.com=20
------=_NextPart_000_0119_01C14847.218F4580-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 28 08:25:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31093; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:24:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:24:25 -0700 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:19:27 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: New Mills' hearsay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <000b01c14830$f71a2380$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <001601c145e0$9416d640$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BB0CACA.C3E3ADF5 ix.netcom.com> <002701c146a9$f51cb080$aa69fea9@cpq> <005901c146e3$d2339180$aa69fea9 cpq> <7775rtkhh4841fokluvuv7684k2alet4f8 4ax.com> <000f01c1476a$6019e5e0$aa69fea9 cpq> Resent-Message-ID: <"-ILc43.0.jb7.eO9jx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > >Equally preposterous is the idea that some proton mass has been drained from the shrinking proton/ neutron, ala subquarks. But that would be the way I would be leaning... This might also make EC easier. > Not quite sure what you are referring to here. Full speculation alert! I can't get the numbers to add up using the proposed CQM spectra and shrinkage, but it goes something like this. Lets say Mills got it half-wrong and that the electron of the hydrino is immaterial to the energy balance below a certain level, say n=2 and that excess energy at higher shrinkage levels comes from the mass of the nucleus. This assumes that quarks are either divisible (subquarks) or that quarks themselves can shrink or most likely that there is something else normally held in or near the nucleus by charge, This is where the light lepton could possibly come in (maybe the gluon is some wierd sort of LL). At some stage of shrinkage (it could be as high as n=2 and certainly is higher than about n=5 since we don't see gammas) the process becomes auto-catalytic and full collapse cannot be halted, kind of like that awful image on TV of late which we are constantly forced to watch. This correspondes to the energy vortex, for which this forum was named, and which is seen on a larger scale at the "event horizon" of a black hole. As autocatalytic shrinkage is occuring (and the nuclear de Broglie wavelength is changing), the hydrino/ deuterino easily sheds its electron but will be drawn by charge imbalance into the inner orbital of one atom in the matrix, whether it is Pd or the Mills catalyst, Sr, Cs, K. At some stage, does the de Broglie wavelength of the collapsing nucleus, virtual or real, ever get in phase with that an inner orbital electron? Probably not, but if it did EC could result, the quark could flip from up to down and the momentum of the capture would probably pull the new baryon into the nucleus of the matrix atom. Alternatively and more likely (the word "more" should never be used in such speculative discussions), there is the prospect that light leptons, attached to nuclear quarks (these could also somehow enter into the picture as a component of the weak force) are the fuel that power the collapse. It is only when they are used up (full collapse) that they are replinished by a heavy lepton (electron). Mechanics of this would have to involve multiple pair-creation events. There are any number of serious problems, like spin, with this "not even half-baked" scenario, but they pale in comparison to the idea that a ~23 MeV alpha can distribute its energy equally into surrounding particles with no photon output. I can say this with a certain amount of certainty just because our technical understanding of energy transport is far more mature than our understanding of nuclear dynamics (Zimmerman notwithstanding). > >What energy levels are you assuming and why don't they add up? > Neutron absorption generally releases 6-8 MeV / neutron. > Absorption of a deuterino with release of an alpha would probably > release on the order of 4-10 MeV, depending on the specific reaction. > Fusion to He4 on the other hand releases 23.8 MeV, and as far as I know > actual energies reported are close to this figure. I don't think the actual figures are anywhere near that precise. A wider range than from 4 to 23 could be easily supported by observations of the excess. > My main problem with LLs being > neutrinos is that LLs are charged, while neutrinos are not, and I > believe that charge is responsible for mass, There have been a number of possible hypotheses for this problem, including a camelion-like mechanism of time-variable charge, but you don't really need it if you subscribe to FS's notion (as I understand it) that LLs can come in any number of mass/ energy "flavors." Fermi found that certain levels are necessary for some leptons (the ones we call fermions) but all we need to get around that is semantics, i.e. to ask what is the requirement that all leptons must be fermions? It is not enough to say because that is what I was taught, or even "why don't we see them in cloud chambers" (Fred has answered that). I am intentionally using the term "flavors" for the present analogy because that indicates indicates that leptons, if they come in a wide variety of mass/energy combinations, could be tied into other phenomena (as suggested earlier, by labeling a gluon as a new kind of lepton). > Jones, you are beginning to sound more and more like the other Jones > (Mitchell) ;). Oh, gawd.... This will be my last post for a while. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 28 10:10:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA07692; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:04:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:04:37 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010928130053.034475b8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:05:10 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC The United States v. what? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Z2uOz3.0.0u1.asAjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Legal jargon can be hilarious. Here is a quote from the New York Times, September 7, 1966: "[Margaret Sanger] and her adherents won a notable victory when, on Jan. 6, 1936 in the famous case of 'The United States v. One Package,' United States District Court Judge Grover Moscowitz decided that Dr. Hannah Stone, a physician, could legally receive a contraceptive device sent to her by a physician in Japan." I envision a judge, jury and a bailiff telling a package, "raise your right hand . . ." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 28 13:15:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA28877; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:11:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:11:47 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010928161210.00aa7528 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:12:24 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Zu3KY3.0.637.2cDjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Test message. Please ignore. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 28 14:10:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18752; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:09:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:09:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3BB4E6EA.A3F09B36 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:08:58 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Sep 28, 2001] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pS0x13.0.la4.GSEjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Sep 28, 2001 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:56:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 28 Sep 01 Washington, DC 1. WORLD PEACE: IF YOU CAN'T DONATE $1 BILLION, HOW ABOUT A LOAN? Major newspapers, including the New York Times and the Washington Post, carried a full page ad on Sunday from the Endowment Fund for World Peace. The ad called on "the world's wealthiest" to come up with $1B for world peace: "There must a few peace-loving billionaires who can raise the money in one day". But in view of the urgency, the ad says, if some deep-pocket would just advance the money, the Endowment would repay the advance from donations of little schmucks like us. So who are these people, and what are they proposing to do with the money? This morning they held a press conference at the National Press Club in Washington, DC. The first speaker was John Hagelin, string theorist (PhD physics, Harvard '81), perpetual presidential candidate of the Natural Law Party, and follower of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Hagelin explained that right now an elite corps of 40,000 Yogic Flyers is training in India to "generate a powerful, scientifically-proven unified consciousness field" that will give us permanent world peace. He was followed on live satellite hook-up by the Maharishi himself. In a rambling, at times incoherent speech, the Maharishi warned, "President Bush doesn't know science, he's uneducated, ignorant and following the path of failure...the solution is with me." 2. LEVITATION: THE "SCIENCE" OF YOGIC FLYING. It's a measure of how seriously the current situation is taken that two years ago Hagelin offered to end the violence in Kosovo with a mere 7,000 Yogic flyers (WN 9 Apr 99). He had come to Washington, DC with his proposal and in the most bizarre press conference in the history of the Press Club, he actually gave a demonstration of Yogic flying. Mattresses were spread right there on the floor, and 12 fit-looking young guys seated themselves in the lotus position. The audience was cautioned to make no sound as they meditated. After a few minutes, one of them suddenly levitated. Well, he didn't exactly float, mind you, just sort of popped up a couple of inches and thumped back down. Then another levitated, and another, till the scene looked like corn popping. There was nothing to suggest they didn't follow parabolic trajectories. My guess is they were suddenly contracting their gluteus maximus. It must be hard work. They were soon panting heavily. 3. THE BUSH ENERGY PLAN: COULD IT SHOW UP IN THE DEFENSE BILL? The Republican House passed an Energy Bill that is much beloved by industry. It includes hefty subsidies and drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. But the Democratic Senate is behind in appropriations and there has been talk of bundling several bills together to speed things up. With that cover, Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK) is prepared to submit the entire energy bill as an amendment to the Defense Appropriations Bill to slip it through. Unless the Democrats are asleep, he will fail. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the American Physical Society or the University, but they should be. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 28 19:06:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA25351; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:05:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:05:26 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fig. 2 in JCF3-16 ???Re: Astounding transmutation data Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 22:15:54 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01092822155400.01741 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA25331 Resent-Message-ID: <"qVkQ93.0.1C6.cnIjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thursday 27 September 2001 16:44, John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Folks, > > > What is "Fig. 2 in JCF3-16" ? Please. > > And where may we see Fig. 2 in JCF3-16 ? Please. > > What are we looking for? Please. > > > JH > > > > On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, hank scudder wrote: > > Jed > > Could you give a detailed web address for this figure please. > > Hank > > > > On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > > > Look at Fig. 2 in JCF3-16. I can't describe it well here. I hope many > > > readers can see it. > > > > > > - Jed > > > > > > Methinks you have to find the original message. Inside that message is a website. At the site there is a 'pdf' file of about 54 KBytes, and this file contains your 'figure 2'. Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Sep 28 22:19:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA07456; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 22:18:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 22:18:16 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [216.67.203.181] From: "Joe Champion" To: References: <01092822155400.01741@tyrannosaur> Subject: Dear members of the Vortex forum: Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 22:18:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Sep 2001 05:18:23.0940 (UTC) FILETIME=[2965E840:01C148A6] Resent-Message-ID: <"cstE-3.0.Kq1.OcLjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There are many in this group that feel that Cold Fusion and Free Energy is real. Furthermost, there are many people in this group that would like for Cold Fusion to be real. Is it real or poppycock? I know that the phenomenon of transmutation is real. However, I have taken a step beyond and challenged the fundamental constraints of science, as we presently understand it. If you would be kind enough to go the following address you will read the entire text. I did not want to overload your email by copying it to the forum. http://www.transmutation.com/cf.htm If you agree or not, it is your decision. However, the reality prevails... Count you eV's and try to find reality. Respectfully. Joe Champion View the New Reality! www.transmutation.com Email: jchampion citlink.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 03:47:56 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA06777; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 03:47:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 03:47:19 -0700 Message-ID: <01b801c148cb$3863a560$628f85ce computer> Reply-To: "Frederick Sparber" From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: A Simple Gravity Field Experiment Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 04:42:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"X1fO71.0.pf1.tQQjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex. I discovered this effect several years ago and mentioned it to a couple of researchers, but we dismissed it as an artifact due to the Earth's Magnetic Field. :-) Using a Digital Meter or a sensitive Analog Meter, on the volts or ohms settings, clip a resistor between the test leads and move the resistor rapidly to-and-fro and watch the meters "hunt" or the needle move. As a "Control" to eliminate the Earth's 0.5 Gauss Magnetic Field as a cause, move a Strong Magnet past the resistor and note that there IS NO Noticeable Effect. Enormous MagnetoGravity Field inducing a Voltage in a moving conductor??? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 05:51:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA32429; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 05:50:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 05:50:37 -0700 Message-ID: <020201c148dc$7227cae0$628f85ce computer> Reply-To: "Frederick Sparber" From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Francis J. Stenger" , , , , Subject: Re: MagnetoGravity Generator Design Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 06:45:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"_aMjU2.0.dw7.TESjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex. I propose a MagnetoGravity Generator made by having a pair of metal disks spaced with 12 threaded studs arranged around/near the perimeter with one of the disks isolated from the driving shaft, with voltage pickup brushes in contact with the two disks, mounted on a motor shaft so that they can be driven at various speeds and orientations wrt the Earth's Magnetogravity Field . Sort of a "Squirrel Cage-Ferris Wheel" Design. Picture that. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 07:25:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA17576; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:24:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:24:32 -0700 Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:32:30 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Frederick Sparber cc: Vortex Subject: Re: MagnetoGravity Generator Design In-Reply-To: <020201c148dc$7227cae0$628f85ce computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UPJqJ.0.YI4.WcTjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: y Dear Fred, How will this yield gravity modification? On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > To Vortex. > > I propose a MagnetoGravity Generator made by having a pair of metal disks spaced with > 12 threaded studs arranged around/near the perimeter with one of the disks isolated > from the driving shaft, with voltage pickup brushes in contact with the two disks, > mounted on a motor shaft so that they can be driven at various speeds and orientations > wrt the Earth's Magnetogravity Field . > > Sort of a "Squirrel Cage-Ferris Wheel" Design. > > Picture that. :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 07:52:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA24750; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:52:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:52:11 -0700 Message-ID: <022f01c148ed$6b9ec1e0$628f85ce computer> Reply-To: "Frederick Sparber" From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: MagnetoGravity Generator Design Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:48:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"V9pfE2.0.a26.Q0Ujx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schnurer" To: "Frederick Sparber" Cc: "Vortex" Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 9:32 AM Subject: Re: MagnetoGravity Generator Design John Schnurer wrote: > y > > Dear Fred, > > How will this yield gravity modification? Gravity modification is not the goal, John. The proposed design is a shot of tapping into the Earth's enormous Magnetogravity field to generate an EMF. This is based on the experiment posted to Vortex earlier using a resistor connected to the leads of a Digital or Analog meter and moving the thing rapidly to-and-fro and watching the meter/s register an EMF that IS NOT AFFECTED by a strong bar magnet moved rapidly to-and-fro near the stationary resistor/test leads. Regards, Frederick > > On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > To Vortex. > > > > I propose a MagnetoGravity Generator made by having a pair of metal disks spaced with > > 12 threaded studs arranged around/near the perimeter with one of the disks isolated > > from the driving shaft, with voltage pickup brushes in contact with the two disks, > > mounted on a motor shaft so that they can be driven at various speeds and orientations > > wrt the Earth's Magnetogravity Field . > > > > Sort of a "Squirrel Cage-Ferris Wheel" Design. > > > > Picture that. :-) > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 08:14:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA30514; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:13:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:13:18 -0700 Message-ID: <024201c148f0$57d96360$628f85ce computer> Reply-To: "Frederick Sparber" From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" , "Francis J. Stenger" Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:07:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C148C6.20F77FA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"Xc9YL1.0.iS7.DKUjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C148C6.20F77FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C148C6.20F77FA0 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="mapi0.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="mapi0.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAAEBLAEsAAD//gAfTEVBRCBUZWNobm9sb2dpZXMgSW5jLiBWMS4wMQD/2wBD ABMNDhAODBMQDxAVFBMWHDAfHBoaHDoqLCIwRT1JSEQ9Q0JMVm5dTFFoUkJDYIJhaHJ1e3x7SlyH kYZ4kG55e3b/xADSAAABBQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAQIDBAUGBwgJCgsQAAIBAwMCBAMFBQQEAAAB fQECAwAEEQUSITFBBhNRYQcicRQygZGhCCNCscEVUtHwJDNicoIJChYXGBkaJSYnKCkqNDU2Nzg5 OkNERUZHSElKU1RVVldYWVpjZGVmZ2hpanN0dXZ3eHl6g4SFhoeIiYqSk5SVlpeYmZqio6Slpqeo qaqys7S1tre4ubrCw8TFxsfIycrS09TV1tfY2drh4uPk5ebn6Onq8fLz9PX29/j5+v/AAAsIAkcC BAEBEQD/2gAIAQEAAD8A7aiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiik3DO3Iz6ZpskiRRtJIwRFGSxOABWU 3iO2Ks9vb3U8SctIkeFx9TitSCVZ4EmTO11DDIwaZeXC2lnNcOcLGhaqmgSXc2lRTXz75JPmBxjC npWlRSUisrqGRgwPQg5p1FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFY1 5fXd7evp+lkJ5f8Ar7kjIj9h6ms+GyOga/bsZ3uIr3MZaQ5ZW61f8UJK9jCFjkkg89TOsa5Yp9O9 Ub3X3mMGnaXZSJJOQqmaPaqr3+U9q6dRhQDjIHasHXHOpX0Giwn5WIluSP4UHQfjWul1aLKtslxD 5gGBGHG7H0qxUQuIDL5QmjMn9zcM/lRcyLFbSyN91EJP5VR8OoyaJa78ZZS3A6AkkVp02SRIkLyO qKO7HAp1FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFcrpeqw6Itza6jHOLh p2f5YyfMB6EGrUUd1rWq217NbvbWdrlo1k4d2PfHYVvsQqlicADJNYGgL/aF/d6xICQ7eVAD/Cor R1jUl0yyMuN8rHbEg6sx6Cs218PStaZubuVLi5bfctGcFv8AZz2AqpFplrb+LbS3soti20RkkPUk npk1b1a/Nxqo0r7YLKJU3yybgGb2BqtA3h4albWdnbyTTo+8SxfNg+rNnJFX/E87G1i06E/vr2QR jHZe5rQnubTSrNDPKsUSAKue+B0FS2l1DeQLPA25G6GsrxbIV0fy0+/LKir9c1sxgrGoPUAZp1FF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFVtQtBf2UtqZHjEgwWTrTrW3hsb RIIgFiiXA/xrE0sNrWqSarIM20BMdqp7nu1UpfE2qxGVDHZCdJNgtyr+Y3pjsas6Hol+uotq2pXB WaXkwoePofpWtqw0+G2a8v4InEQyC6gn6CqHh+ykaWXWLtBHJcLiOIdI07UzTWF/ql3rUv8Ax724 McHHYfeaobSaG78zXdUZfJGVtoW5AX1x3Jq54WtZIbW4uJIjCLqUyJGf4V7UmrxSXPiDS4QjGOMt Kxxxx05rdooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooqtf3dpZ25e9lS OJvl+boc9qzotf0G0hWKC7hWNeFSMHj8BVmy1Kz1G6It4nk2LnzjEQv0BPetGqeo2lneRot7gpG2 8BmwMj1qPUBLfaXJHpk0RaT5N4bhR3xjvirFnZxWdlHaIP3aJt+vrVG18N6VazmZLfc2cgOxYL9A a1aWiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiue8aRwyaQqSDMjSqs f1P/ANatVI7GwijjbyIuAozgZq2MAcdKybzQVvrmSWe+uvLYgiJJNoWsWw0ex1DWJkSOV7W0bY5l lZvMb0HPFdZbW0FpEIraJIoxztUYFZut6jPC0dhpw3X0/wB30jXuxq3pSXkenxLqEgkucHeQB6+1 XKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK5i/tv+Ei10QrK6WtiP meM8lz2FaVt4d0y3Yu0HnydS853n9a1FIIBUjHbFY1lqjtdasZplMFq+FyMY45Ge9M8Ix+Xonnv8 pnkeUk+mf/rVoWGqWmotMtpIX8ltrHBx+HrWNql2tlqUmr2kkM/kr5FxCzbWXntnvW9ZXP2uziuD E0XmLu2P1FWKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKQjIxVawsL fToPJtlIUsWJJyST3JqaaJZ4XikztcYODg/nSW1vFaQJBCu2NBgDOaz7rw7pd3cNPNb/ADscthiA x9xWkkaRxiJEVUUYCgcAUkMEUC7YYkjXrhFAH6VnN4d0x7972SDfK7biGYlc+uKm1fT5dRtVt4bt rUbgWKrkkenUVatofs9vHCZHk2DG5zyalooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo pKjjuIZZGjjlR2T7wU5xUhIUZJAHvSI6uoZGDKehByKdRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRVDXZWh0S9kQkMsLYI+lZWh+HrNtItnuBI8si7ywkZevPY1an 8OacIndlnk2qSFed2H6mneFB/wASC2baBuycAY71sUUUUUUUUUUUUVka9c38ItotNeNZ5pNvzrnj FQxQ+J2X95d2KH2jJIqnrJ1zTrRZ31ZWJdUCR24GST9a6WEOIYxI25wo3HGMmpKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKimuIYMedNHHu6b2Az+dUJPEWkREg38RIOMKdx/Ss3XNf0260 a6ghuMyOhUAow/pW7pwxptqPSFf5Cn3b+VZzyYzsjY49cCub0DU79NHtktdHkmiAO1/PUZ5PtVy7 1vU7O3ae40dIo05YtdD/AA61r2c7XNpFM8TQs6gmNuqn0NT0UUUUUUUU3cv94fnS5B6Vlamu7WdK wOQ7n/x2tasbxDtd9OgwGZrtGAzzgdeK2NwzjIz6UZFLRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRUc0nlQvJtLbFLbR3xWImv3kiRSR6V+7mOIy9wqlj9Kd/bOpm7FoukATFPMw1wuNucVmx3Vx qfiu3tr+3VFijYmJZN6Z5wT711UdtBF/q4I0/wB1AKoeIolbQ7sbR9z+tWtM/wCQZa/9cV/lRqh2 6Xdseggc/wDjpql4UXZ4cs1/2W/9CNN8WEf8I/cAqzbmQYUZJ+cVVt/FdrGqRz2V5boMKHePj9Ks T+K9KhcKJJJOAd0aEgZGev40i+LdJIz5so+sRpr+LdL3KEnxyMl0IAHerK+I9JbGy9jbPvj+dSx6 zZSLuEgx9Qf5GrQuoCu4SAj2FSM6qhcnCgZOaiW7hYZDHHuDQ1wrqUhYGUoSgIOPauQ8OaZBqlzf G9gyI5D92Zx8xPbBHHWt5PDOlooHkykjuLiQf+zVXt7UWfiaG3ikmeNbVn/eSFsZbHf6V0Fc74gt IbzXNJhmXejGTcuSOMD0q1/wi+kD7tsyn1Er5/nWZqulW9hqOlLYiSN5rgBh5rHKjk9TXV0UUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU1/uN9K5SDbJLpCHOFuZ/xw1ae1x4xDlW2GxIDds7xXJ6 XPdw6/FJbQi4ldpQqltu8c9662LUtZOQ+hsCPS4T+tMvp9SvLGa2fR3j8xdoJnQjP4Gte1QxWsMZ G0oigj0wKr6wrvpF5HGMu8LKo9SRisjTbLX9PsY4oLizuEQEbJFIxz2Ipl9NrUt1ZWl5DaJHLMDu jYkHHOOfpXShVBJCgZ68UuB6UhRWXaygj0IqvJp1rI4dogDjHHANV7nQ7Cdf+PWEN6lBk1Sl8LWU m5vslurHptyAKibwrZgEC3ZTnhopT/I1XbwtcIzfZ7ydVb/pqRke9J/wi10CoN1OQBn/AFvT6Uyf w/fW8TP9snCKNzYmqbwdNBbwXKTzpHK0hJWQ4bqR3rplniYZWVCPUMKyrd/M8V3XQiO1RQfqSa2a xbwB/FVgpH3IJG/pW1XNa/BJfeINNtI5mh2o8m9Dhh9KtDQbkNn+3L//AL6X/Cob/T72zRJItbu9 zypGPMCsBuYDOMD1rfQFUAZtxA5PrTqKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKRhlSPUVyr6P q58uFYLbbBM8scxmYH5jnoK0nj8RbGxNp75H3drD9axLVLi08TaXFfxwW4hgcLsbIK7TyTXVHUrA HBvbbP8A11X/ABqLUdStrOxN20geNCCfLIJIz2q6jB0Vx0YZFNnBMEgUkMVOCO3FPAA4FUdSgaWW zaIhZEm4YjOBtOeM+1ONtfFif7QAHYCAf4077NdY/wCQg/8A37X/AApDb3na/wD/ACCKXyb4dLyI /wC9Bn+TCpFS7H3p4T9ISP8A2amOL4N8jW5X3Vh/WkDX4+9FbN9JGH9KX7Rcr96zY/7kin+eKUXn HzW9wp9PLz/LNQ3VxBPbSQv50e9SMmBuP0qrZ6LpNzbrctZpK837xnkXLEnk+n8qmPh7SCMfYIfy qh4fsY7PXNUSEsI02Kqkk44zXRVzeo6c+p+KVUXU9usFqpJiYqTljxmrJ8L2Z63F43+9cMay40st A8UZnuXWE23ytMxbBJ6ZrpINTsLgAw3kD59JBWdrs++70mCJlO+7DHv93mtyiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis69OqLM720lokCrkeaGJJ75x0rjL+a414QSlrWS5dSEREOVUcksScAd a0/CWirLbzyaha28sZOIm2DnBIJz6U/xRoWm2Wiz3FraiORSuCGPGT6ZxXVQLtgjX0UD9KJtpiZW YqG+XIJBGeOo+tVP7JhXJiuLuIk5ytwx5+jEiiO1u1vIWlnWaKMNhiNr5PHOOD+lX6KKKKKKKKjn lWCCSZvuxqWPOOAKrw6lYvHuF7bkFjgiRfU+9IdY01c5v7f5ev7wVR8OyJdTaleRENHLcfIfUBRW 3WTZzxtq+oTyMqBNkOWbAOMn+taAu7YjIuIj/wADFUbWW11DUr5TDHJ5BWPeyA54yRn61JLomlyn L6fbk+yAfyplvoGm2t6l3b2/lyoDjDHHPtWnRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRUNzc w2kRluJVjQdyazZJ77VEZLS3SG2YY864XJb6J/jXPz6XLp+rf2Np5cxX8SmWVhyuCd3I6cDp712V rbpaWsVvH9yJAg+gFY/jQn/hHpVH8bqP1rdAwAKZMVwqkjJYYBPXBzUlFFFFFFFFFFR3EKXMEkEo ykilWGexqnHoelxoqCxgO1QoLICcfWpP7L08LgWNvj/rmKpeGEC6fMwACvcyMoHYZx/StiuZ8PWd tqlvfS3kCSg3zsu4Z7CtGXwzo0oINhEue65X+VWNK0q30i3aC23bWcudxyeavUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUVm3uqFLgWdjF9oumHPPyR/7x7d+KLfSgZhc6hJ9pnHKhh8kR/2R/X2 rSpMDOcc0tYHjIBtHRT/ABToP51v1XmGbu2PpuP6VYoooooooooooopkpKxOR1Ck1l+FkZNCt93V tzfmTWldP5VrNIf4EJ/IVmeFYvK0SI8ZkJkP41sUUUUUUUUUUUUUVQ1rUW0uwa6WAzbWAIHYetUo vFemtGrymaJWGQzRNtJ9jirA8R6OV3fb4fpnmlHiHSP+f+L86D4h0gf8xCD/AL6pB4j0f/oIQj6m hvEWkKpIvo3x2TLH9KiPiax3EJFdyAd1t2xSf8JNZ97a9H1t2pR4m08ffFxGB1LwsAKX/hJ9Hzj7 Vj6o3+FSHxFo4BP9oQ8ds801PE2js2BeKPcqQKlTXtJkcIl/AWJwBurRoooooooooqG5uYbSEy3E ixoO5NZ2++1Ufud9jaH+MjEr/h/CP1rQtbSCzi8u3jCKTk+pPqT3qeiiisLxWGaCxjUZ3Xa/orVu 1Wl/5CFv6bHP/oNWaKKKKKKKKKKKKr6hIIdPuZG6LEx/SodEQJo1mo4/cqfzGabr83kaHeyDr5LA fiMVLpUXkaXax/3Yl/lVuiiiiiiiiiiiiiqGuMF0W9JGR5LcfhS6PbrBo9pFtHyxLkEd8Vb8qP8A 55r+VBijYYaND9RUYs7UHItoc+uwU5reBxhoYyPQqKcsUaDCRooHYDFOChegxS0hAIwaaYoyclFz jHSoxZWobcLaEN6hBmniGMLt2AjpyM1zvi21gihspY4o42FyoyqgZz/+qumooooooooqhf6kts4t rdfPvHHyRD+ZPYVHa6YXlW71FvPuOqofuQn/AGR+XPtWnRRRRRWZqoVrzTFYA/6QTz/uNWnUDj/T YT6Rv/NanoooooooooooorL8SuU0G729WTaPxOK0LdPLt4k/uoB+lZfikb9EliBwZHRB+LCtaNdk aoOigCnUUUUUUUUUUUUUVk+KWK+Hrwr/AHQP1FaNvg28WOmwY/KpaKKKKKKKKKK5zxm3+j2Mfdrp SPw//XXR0UUUUUVHNNHBE0kzqiKMkscVmC8u9V408GC2/wCfpxy3sqn+ftV6ysYLFCsK8scs7HLM fUmrNFFFFFFZWoBm1nTh/CGZv/HTWrULf8fkf/XN/wCa1NRRRRRRRRRRRRWN4nDSWMMC4zNcIn65 /pWzWN4lf/R7OL+KS6jA/OtmiiiiiiiiiiiiiiqGux+bol6mM5hb+VLokhl0Wyc9TCv8qvUUUUUU UUUUVzfiVTPrGj2x5UzFiPpXSUUUUUVVv7+DT4DLO3P8KDlmPoBWVBptzq1wt7qpxCG3Q2pH3R/t e/St4AKMAYA7ClooooooorLum/4qCyTH/LN2/StSoW/4/Ij/ANM3/mtTUUUUUUUUUUUUVlatl9S0 uEEYMzOR/urWrXP+JLmG31HSPtDhIxOXJPbAGP51bPiTRh11CH9aRvEukqOLrf8A7sbH+lC+I9PY ZBnI9fIfH8qcfEWkhdzXaqP9pSMfpU9jq9hqEjR2dysroMkAEHH41doooooooooqvqAzp9yD08pv 5Gqfho58P2P/AFyFalFFFFFFFFFFc9qvzeLdJQ/wo7dK6Giiiis2/wBVEEv2WziNzedfKHG0epP+ etNstJ23AvL+T7Tdj7rfwxj0UfjWpRRRRRRRRRWRIyt4qhTulozf+PCteq4JOoMMnAiHHbkn/CrF FFFFFFFFFFFFZU4EniS0XbkxW7vn0yQK1awdZhiu9f0q3kUMAJHI9sCtiK1gh/1cSrxjNQ32nx3q xK0jxrG4chDgN7H2q2AAMAUjLuXGSPcHFYdg0y+Kru3+0TPBFbqQruSMnHNb1FFFFFFFFFVtRJGn XOOvlN/Kqvhv/kX7H/riK06KKKKKKKKKK565fzfG9mgPENuxIx65roaKKRmCqWYgAckntWM+o3Oq TvbaUNsKkrLdMOB2+T1PWtCxsILCLZECWPLOxyzH3NWqKKKKKKKZJIkUZkldUReSzHAFcxF4p1G5 Vrm00YzWisV3LJ8x/T6Vbg1HXbxC0OnQQL2Mztn8sVT0+e/k8YSefDC7x2/lyNE52qMg9x19q6uq M8d296Wtp44gEXcHj3buW9xUyJeAfPPAT/swkf8As1IjzpdLFK6MrIWG1duCCPc+tWaKKKKKKKSs xNespJMRuDGH2NIzBQD+JqyNV04nAv7X/v8AL/jVCzmjufE9zJDIsiJbKu5TkZJzW1WNIN/i2H/p lasfzOK2aKKKwrU58ZXwXoLZN314x+lbtFFFFFFFFFQXo3WNwPWJv5VQ8Ltu8P2eeyY/I1rVTsdS tr+S4S3LE277HJXAz7VcoooooooornrAiTxlqLHkxwoo9q6GkJCgknAHJJpsUsc8YkhdXRujKcg0 kqxSKYZdrBwQVPcUQwx28SxQoqRoMKqjAFSUUUUUUVVv7i5t4gbWza5c/wAIcKB9SayLTxJcPNKl 1pNygRtgMK+ZyDgirUmq+fG0baNqEiMMENEoB/Nqo+CB5VjeW5jdPLuW+V+o4HB9+K6WsXSbXyta 1aQtuJlHOMdVVsfrW1VS0uUubm6CBgYXETZ7kc8f99CrdUrlrlb2MwRRSDym4eQr3XPY+1O82/HW zh/C4P8A8TSie6H3rI/8BkU/zxTvtEv/AD5z/mn/AMVR9ok/59J//Hf8aX7QcZ8ibPpgf40husdb ecf8Az/KnfaU/uy/9+m/wpGuAB8sUz/RCP54pDdRYw4kX2Mbf4VTtbDTb2H7Q1jbtud8N5QGQGIH b0FTNo2mMctYWxP/AFzFFpZW1pdMttbQxKIxkogBOSev5Vermr+xk1DxXsS7mt1jtgWMTYJBJ4q+ ugR4xJf6g/1uCP5VUdjpWuW0T6oVtWiZ3W6mHPYAE/X17GtNtZ0xQSb+3wP+mgq3HIksayRsGRhl SO4rFsv+Rw1HA/5YR5PvxW7RRRRRRRRRUV0M2sw9UP8AKszwp/yL1r9D/M1e1G8j0+wmupSAsak/ U9hXN+BpBDp1/cXDbAJdzlu3FXvD+vS6xqN4m0JbxAGIY+Yg9zU2ueIbXTQ9sJj9rKZUKm7ae2RW VLquqw6QuqRalb3ETkKsf2fB3Z6da0bL/hIrlElu57azjGCVWPLEe+eBU9v4j0+51QWELlmIO2TH ysR2FXdSvF0+wnu3XcIl3bfWsnTdcvZb62t9QtYolvEMkLRsTgAZwa6Ciub0TLeKNZc9iF/z+VdJ VHW5hBo145OD5LgfXBxUXh61ey0K1gYYdUJIPqST/WueutBk03R31KeZ31KF1cSbycDcBj9TXWRT 4sEuJM8RB29emTWFbXWuavZnULOeG3jJPlQFN24Djk/nU9zrP2zQY5rQslxcMsaKOCGyM/lWrLOL LT2nuCT5MW5z3OBzVPTNTvr6UGXTWt7dl3K7Pk/iKb9pu319bZ544Y0G4Q7cmZSDyD7EdK16KRjh Sfas/QlI04MeryyMf++zVeV2k8VwwqzgRW5kbng84xj8c03S54bbUNUWaaOMGcEbmAzxWk+oWUa7 nu4AB3Mgqppd1aXF9fm2uYpmeRXwhyQAij+natSuXg1qPTtRv45UkIa7LErGW4wo6jp0NaK+I7Jx lIrxh6i2c/0qAeJtON+A8ksYEZChoH3MSeeMdOBU48TaRj5rkxn0eNh/SpE8Q6Q44v4R9Tj+dP8A 7d0r/oIW/wD32Klj1Owk+5eQH/toKsRyJKu6N1dfVTkU+iiiobYARHH/AD0f/wBCNTU0Y3sR14B/ z+NOrAtpW/4S6+CoWAijUtnhRya3gQehFc/qNvBfeLLOCdFkSK3aTaR3zjmma8unaaEjFhbL9ojl G/YMqQvFaXh7cNBst5Jbyh1qnayKnjC/XcAGt0Jye4/+tW2siN911P0NKZEUZZ1H1NNWeFzhJY2P swNPBB6GlpNw9RRkeopaKSortttpM3pGx/Ss7wqMeHrTjHyn+ZqnIj+INbaOQEafYPyp/wCWsn+A qOLwzN9quReXQGnvMZvJj43/AO8fQUzSZUtrXWtVhjGwOVi2jjao4xWN4YktFe71jVZ1ZxkKrnli RzxUmhxvdXFhYbT5cczXUi/3R/CD/nvXQeLp2S0trbcY4rmdUlk/urmq2nQW114nL2UaC2sIfK3A cFvb9eam8Sl9Ru7XRIGAMp82Y+ij/wCvTPDa2/2uQXm7+1o8qwlPRe2wdNtdLRXP+HAr6lrNwP4r nb+QroK57xOz3Nxp+mRZPnzBpQOyAjOfzq14j1d9E09J4oVkLSCMBjgDgn+lYcF7rOvTR2skEbWJ kBkkWNlUgHOMn6Cul1dhb6LeFeNlu4XHb5eKxtH0e9k0eC3lvmhtduQkK7XyTnlvzq3f6LMr2Umk mCE2gbakinacjGeO9TtYX15pM9rqU0LzSKQjRqQFOOKfpsmqhhDf2sKoif62OTO49uO3FV/s2qz3 1tJcx2arE27zYyd6juvPr0raopDyMVj2sjLoF4VYq8ZnAI4IILVfggDPFdOP3oi2E45IODWRpemW d1e6nLcQLLm4K4fkdP8A69acWj6ZD/q9PtlPr5QzUGkxRLf6k8aKP3wXgY/gWtWsjQ1xd6m2fvXL foTWvVZraNtRS5ZVLrGVBI5Xnt+ZqdkVvvKD9RTTBCesMZ/4CKY1laOMPawsPeMGoH0fTJPvafbf hEBVi2tYLSLyraFIkznagwM1NRRRWbBpjCBVe9utwJyVkxu5NTf2fEo/111x/wBPD/41LZbvskZY klhnJOTzU9cw/h03+t3s93JLGhZCio3Ei4PXH0q+vhjTEBCJOoPULO4B/WoLELJ4tvWTLLDbpFnr g56Zqr4uEN9c2NhFIDcmXBUdVUjnP4V00UaxRJGgwqKFA9hXMQaRaX/ibVftSFgu3ADEdR7Vq/8A CN6RjAs1HuHYH+dIPDOjj/lzU/7zE/1oPhrRyMfYkHuGI/rULeFrEPmCW5txjBEUpFJH4ZQkm51K /m7DM5GBTl8KaYPvCd/96ZqcvhjTF+6kwPqJm/xobwzZEkrNdp7CdqY3hqPjZqN+oH/TbNJ/wjEB AL3187DuZiP5VHqekPbabPJFqmoYjjJ2tNkHjp0q/wCHVKaDZA9fKFaPSmyxiWJ42+64INQ2ljBZ 2S2kSDylGNuOtUU8NaXHdC4W2TcOgI4q9bWFtazyzQwqkk2C5HepLm2hu4WhuIlkjbqrDIqKw0+1 02DyLSIRpnJA7mnLZW63z3oj/fumwvnt6VXn0iGfVYdRaSUSwjAUN8taFJXO+DiXiv5dpxJdMc10 dZ1rpSwarc6g0zyyTgKFYcIPQVdlhinULNGsig5AYZGaeAFGAAAOwrH8SWt5f20NnaJlJZAJnyPk X/P8q07S2S0to7ePOxBgZPNTUUUUUUVgT6NqaxzRWepIsMjs4jkhHc5xnrVhIdfKgSXVih/2YmP9 RWb4a1W1t4r5b7UIfNN0x3EhQ3A5HtW/DqNlOCYruB8ddriqmhSJMLyZCpD3B6ewFatZejtHHbzz Oyp5txIcscfxGrUuo2MK7pbyBB7yCobeWPVDLJHMTAh8seVIRkg8nI9sVIdOi/hnukx6XDn+ZNKL IjpeXI/4GD/MU4203a9nH4If/ZaUW8o63s5+qp/8TTvJk/5+ZfyX/CmiK5Xpcq3+9H/gRS7bpekk T+xQr/U00m9zxHbgf75/wpUN5vXesG3+LBOfw4p1p5n2ZPO/1mPnxjr36Uty2y2lf+6hP6UsClII 1PUKB+lSVnWeoxzveyyKIktpDEWLZzt7/rVm4vLe3gaWSaMKoJ5YDNcr4fsdYu7aXUINRW1F1KXK +UHLfnU2leG7628Qm9vJ0mjBLhxwWY+1dZWHoK+bqWrXY6NP5Y/4CMVuUUUUUUUUUVn68duiXp/6 Yt/KpdJQR6VaKO0Kfyq3RRRRRRRRRUVxKILeWZuiIW/IVkeDojHoMbsMGZ2k/P8A/VW5RRRRRRRR RRRRRRWfZ6LYWbTNHArGWQud6g4z2HtT59I024B86xgb32CsfwnYhIpLqK5lWIyuBAuNnBx0x1qb VNAtTb3Fx9ovFYKz4E5xnr0qDQ/DWmyaZbz3UHnSSIH+dicZ56VrLoelKMLp9sMf9MxU9lYW2nxN FaRLEjNuIHrVmiiiiiiiiqJ00NKzteXeCSdgl2qMnPbFJNYxRQuRLOCw2/PKzjkjsT36VforA0e1 t9QtdQW4j3xyXshxkjoeOlXF8PaQv/MPgP8AvLu/nV+CCK2hWGBFjjQYVV6CpKjnkEMEkrdEUsfw FZfhWMrokcjfemdpT+LGtiiiiiiiiiisjxU5Tw/cgdX2qPxYVpwLst41AxtUDH4VJRRRRRRRRRWZ 4jcx6BesOvlEfnxU+kKqaTaKn3RCuPyq5RRRRRRRRRRRRWfrGrwaPCktwrMrtj5etV7fxNpk8ayG SWJG6PJEwU/jjFW4tX02YZjv7Y/9tAKJdTsFRgL223YOB5q/41k+DI7n+zFme4DQOz7YtmMHd1zn 61r6iNmm3ZZiQY2PPbik0YY0ezH/AExT+VXaKKKKKKKKKKKinXdGB/tqf/HhUtIeAaxfCZzpsxxg m6kP61t0UVneIJRDol45OP3ZH58VNpUXk6Xaxj+GJf5VbooooooooorD8Vkmwt4lGfNuY1x+NblF FFFFFFFFFZviLb/YV7vOB5R/+tT9DDjRbMSfeEK/yq/RRRRRRRRRRRRWH4xVT4duWI+ZcYPcZIFb CKpiUFQQQOo9qhk02xlIL2cDEeqCs/WIbKzsmVdLWXzFYZjiU7OPvH0FJ4OUL4atMd9x/wDHjVrx AxXRLsr12Y/UVPpg26ZaD0hT+Qq1RRRRRRRRRRRTWxwCQMnj37/0p1NkbZGzHoATWX4YXGjRyYx5 rNJ+bGtaiisPxcrS6XFboxUzXCJx9atvpTu5I1O+jU/wI6gD6fLn9aP7HTBAvb4Z6/vzVTU9Ourf T5JLC9u2mQZCvLkEd+1UbLT9avLSK6GrZSRQwRtw69iQac/hy9k/1j27N2cyy5H60qeHtTi4GoiR fR3k4/I1FdWE1ndWSTLbyfaJRH8rS7sdSfvVtf2Jag5SS5Qeiztj+dKdITGEvL1D6iY/1pRpsqjC 6pe592Q/+y1HJY6pj91qxBHTdAp/PFUL631GOa0F5qiyLJOi+SkIUMQd3Xr2z+FdHRRRRRRRRRRW D4xdhpCQr/y3nSM/Tr/StuNBHGqAYCgAU+iiiiiiuZFmuqeJ9QSeWfyoVQIElK4O0en1NXm8OWuc x3N7ER0K3Df1pyaTexDEWtXXHTzFV/5imPZa8D+71iEj1a2GaabbxGoIGoWbZ7mEjFAtfEY5OpWn 08isvxcdWTRNt1NaFJJVUrFGwJ6nqWPpXXKMKB6Clqpqp26TeE9oHP8A46apeE12+G7If7JP/jxq fXQG0t0PSR40/NwKvRoIokjXooAH4U+iiiiiiiiiiio5Bl4j6Nn9DUlMlGYnHqprN8Mhl0G1DdQp /ma1aKKytbQSS6Yh/wCf1T+Ssf6Vq0VHOm+CROm5SOPpWZ4Wk8zQLb1QFPyJrXorIvgJPEemqcHY kj4/ADNa9FFFY2pESeItJhPRfMk/8d4rZoooooooooorA8VfMumxYyXvE/TNb9FFFFFFFYelOf8A hItWjwMblPv91a3KKKKKw/E9tJerY28aFwbkM2BwAAeT+Y/Otyis/XmKaFfkf8+7j9DSaAnl6JaJ 6R0muEfZI0P8c8f/AKEK0qKKKKKKKKKKKKT+lLTJTiJz6Kao+H+NFtcd1z+taNFFZ+pLuu9O44Fx n/xxq0KKQ9DWL4QIOhpjtI4/8erborJK7vFIPHyWZ/DLVrUUUVgy/vfGkHUeRak/XJP+Nb1FFFFF FFFFFc7qx8/xVpVtniMNL+NdFRRRRRRRWHpZ/wCKi1UY/iXn/gK1uUUUUVmaxY315JaNY3S2/lSb nJz8w44wOvToaRrXWAcpqkLf7LW2B/Oo2s9dJyNWhX2FsP8AGsnXBr8OlXEd19nuYGHMsfyso9xX SaYnl6dAmCMIOtU9bGbjTlz1uB/Staiiiiiiiiiiiiiiq+oSeTp9xJ/diY/pWRpOtaXbaVbxS30K PHGN6luQasr4k0twTFNJIB1KQuR/Kj/hJNMBAMsgz3MLjH6U7/hItLJwLksfQIx/pTIdRh1K/jSB JcQsH3PEyg/KwPJHuPzrXoqvf3H2SxmuArOY0JCqMkntWDoGqWtlpMUMn2iS4JLOiW7kgk/TFW5/ E9naruube8hU/dLwkA0ieKLOVS0VveSKBklIScU/RbiPUL69v4iTGSsSEjHAGT+prZooorCtMTeL 71+nkwKn581u0UUUUUUUUUVzd8NnjawbP3oWH866SiiiiiiisjSkzq+qy8f65V9/uLWvRRRRRVVd Rs2upLUXMYnj+8hOCOM/1qyGDDKkH6Vn68QdGuxkf6s5q9FxEn+6KyPENwtrJYTNHJIqTbiI13Gl TxVozLu+2Y4zgo3+FSw+ItKnYKl2AT03Kwz+YrTUhlDKcgjIIpaKKKKKKKKKKKoa64j0S9YjP7lh +lLYWFrHbwyC2iEhjUFtgyeKu4GMYpaKKKKKK4vx5cxtc2duAWkiDOR9cAfqKw/D2nale300Nrcy WpTmRgxHPYEA+td5oV159s8M0SxXcDbZ0UYy3978etalFFFYugx7rzVbonl7to/wXitqqF3rNhZS mK4nCyAjK4PerMF1BcruglWQf7J6VNRRRRRRRXPbGufGxYfdtbcZz2J//XXQ0UUUUUUVjaA2+bUn 9bn/ANlFbNFFFJTZTiJyG2fKfmxnHvXOaFo1vfWButWsy95I58zzlIYenB6cYq6fC+mAERLNDk/8 spWWs3W9BsrW1hMHnebJOkeWlY7snnOTXUoCqKD1AxUM0e+5iLbSozwevSnQ2sMMKRJGu1FCjIHQ VHqKKdNuAFHETYwOnBqaBdkEaf3VA/SpKKKKKKKRmVFLMQqgZJJwAKrHUrAAE3tsAen71f8AGj+0 rD/n+tv+/q/40W0yy3FxslEijbjDZA4q1WR4plWLQpwzBd5VMn3Iq0mp6dFCub62AVQP9av+NNTW tLkkWNNQtmZugEoq8CGAKkEHoRS0UUUUVxlxC194pvr5ojLDp0fyqOcuBwPzzWbodnePqMS3Dz2c V6GLFDtaQg5/DrXbafpFrp0sssBlLygBjJIW6fWr9FFFZegoVhvGPSS9mYfTdj+lalUdU0yHUYCr KolH3HI6VX0XSP7KhcsRJI393t9Kv27TMW82MoM5GTzU9FFFFFFYGntnxfqQzx5Sf0rfoooooopK x/DZ3xXkn9+4btjoAK2aKKK5zUY47nxI0N07+RHah9qsR/eyePpWRqVlbC1t2t1vYzczLGryzMVC t3HNbXgxGi0qSNiW2TsAx71s3F5a2mPtNxFFnpvYCsnVbyxvXsFhvrclLxHIDgkjBAAA68kVu1Uu oI7i5iSVcrsfoSCOncVW8iytZxFm8XdwGM8rKT6feo1OzX7LtjluFaR1jJ89jwWAPBJFWFsAP+Xq 6P1lNOFpIowt9cj67D/NaUW04/5fpj/wBP8A4mgwXH8N43/AkU0CO8H/AC8xH6wn/wCKpdt2P+Wk B/7Zkf1pT9rHTyT7cim773/nhbn/ALbH/wCJqC9e9NpKptocFdpxKW4PB42jtVwQxiMRhcKOgBxi n4GMdR71WtbZYLq5aOJEWQqflAGTirVYfiyFbnTobduPNuY0/WrcehaXHtxYW5IGMmMGsLxd4et3 gk1GJlhEEOPLVcBjn/69bdtqmlW1nDGt9AqJGAoaQA4x3qRda0tzhdQtyf8AroKuRSxzLuikVx6q c0+iiiua8LxA6rrE7Y8z7QU+gyaTxSijU9IkAw/n43AfSumoooqlrE/2bSbqYHBWM4NQeG4fI0K1 XuU3H8a1KKKKKKKKKKK57QMza3q9zjA80Rj8K6GiiiiiimyMEjZj0UE1g+G5nSzlRItw89sHd6mu gooorEeLzfFEzsu6OOzUMPXJaqJmhtdNhgaFpIr66MYXd/qRu4AB7gVFoXh6x1C0N3OJTvkcBVch SAcf0rat/DmkW5yljGx9X+b+dZevWFrbanoxtrWKPddDcUUDuK6iqYx/bDe1uP8A0I/4VcqvdMmY YnzmSQBR7j5v/ZasUUUUUUUVjeJL82lrGkTZnd1KRg4MoDDKj6gmmv4mt42ZJLO+WQHG3yDzSf8A CSjtpWpc/wDTCn6Nqs1/qF6jW80USFSolXaV+UcY9+TWzWZrtxZ21tFLeuqBJkZCfUHnH4ZqV9Y0 2MAvewLkAgFxnB9qyfEur6fPolzBDdRySSLhVXnuK14NLsY4ol+yQkooAJQE1K1laMMNawkehjFZ HhqFI7zVnijCRm5KLj261v0UUVz/AIXINzqzDOGumxx9aXxehSxt7xQT9luFkI9uhrcikWWJZEOV YAgj0p9FFY3iyTZocqA4MrLGPxNaltGIbeKJcYRQBj6VLRRRRRRRRRSdKwfCCk2FzO3JluXOfXmt +iiiiiimyJ5kbJkjcCMjqK5vw4rlWwF2Cckk5z09P6101FFFYU9nrUOo3M9g9qyT7f8AXbsrjPT8 6rXOja7eSW8099ZiS3begERwDWn4etWstJS2eRJGjd1LJ0zuOa06wfEUiJqGjgsMm6GB36it6s43 VtHrMqyzRxsIFHzMBnljTpNa0yNtr39uD7SA1g6jrU0/iC1GkxrfJBGZCkb9c5B5+hq8dc1ZBmTw 7Nj/AGZg39KWLxDds373Qb9F9VXd+lSHxNaKSHtb9COxtmpF8WaSR880kZ9HiYH+VKPFejn/AJeH H1ib/Cj/AISvSN2BO5HqI2/wqRPE2jvn/TUT/fBX+dSLr+kv93UID/wKs3WZLG5udN1EXmY4Z9oE SB9zdeTnjpXSUVj6SCdZ1h+P9cg/JBWxWZrNjb3zWaXLRlUmBETD/WdsDn3z+FWo9Psov9XaQL24 jFZfiC3jlFlYxQqDcXCl9q/wLyc/pUzeIrSN2V4L1dpwSbZsfypv/CU6QPvXDIT/AH42X+Yo8LDd pPnnrcTSSn8WNbNFFJ0rA8IHda3rdjdPj9K0Ndj83RLxMf8ALJj+XNN8OuZNBsmbGfKA49uK0qKK 57xfIohsYn5VrgMwHUgU8eIppZNtro93Lgc5wtD6prjMoh0YIGOB5ko/XHSkluvEqRBzZWY5HAZm I/KpGj8SyN/r7CEY7Izfzpkdr4kUsTqFqfTdFTJB4pi3EPZSgf3VIJqw83iGERlbWzuAVG4ByhBw M9eOuenp2qN73xHt+TSLcH1M4NNFx4oK7vsVh0zje2f50r6nr0KBpdFR/Xy5x/KoP+EpulOH0Sce m2QGkk8WKIZPP066gBUgMy5Gcd6s+DVxoETZzvdm+nNbtFFFFFFMkbZG7egJrD8Jsj2bsc+Z5jA+ mM1v0UUUUyaNZoXifO11KnB7GsVPDEcMYit9Rv4YgSQiS8Cj/hGVZcSarqLg9QZuDWXqujWmmajp L25laR7pQWkkLdxXY1zVppVjqmr6hcXVuJfLkCLuJx3zWumj6ZGu1bC2A94wadb6XY2tybm3tY4p Su0sgxx9OnarlFJiozbwltxiQsO+0UfZof8Ankvr0o+zw4A8tePamPYWjjD20TduVFQPo2myKQ9n Ef8AgNZPiLSIoPDzw2FudyyK4CDnP4Ui6xr8EqRz6XFMXXcBGxBA/HvUx1/UwNo0C58zODlht/On eG7prie/aa3aG4aUNIu/cM4AGOOOMetb1Y+tFk1DTZRFJII3c4QZJO04H1pqa5duCV0K+/4EFH8z VS31JdU8UWvlxyxeRA5dJV2spJArpajlhimQpLGrqwwQRnNEEEVtCsMCLHGgwqr0FSUUUyXiJ/8A dNYfgxAujF85Mkzt+tbVzEJ7aWE9JEK/mKxvB85OltaSZEtrI0bA9ueK3qKKpXumW1/PbzThi1u2 5ADxn3q4ABwAB9KWiiiiiiiikpjwxSIUeNWU9QR1pYoo4YxHFGsaDoqjAH4U+iiiiiiiuX8NkQ3M 0SAjEpGevB7frXUUUUUUUUVgeIsHVdFU/wDPxn8itb2RjORisPwu+9dSOf8Al9fp9BW7RRRRRRRR RRTDGpkVyPmXgc04nAyaxPDWJ/tl6P8AltOQMegAH9K3KpXZb+0bFVJAJcsAeo29/wAcVdpnlR+d 52xfM27d+OcemafRRRRRUVy4jtpXboqEn8qyfB6FPD8Bz98sw/Otuuc0wi28XanbqVAlCyYx7V0d FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFJ0GTXL+H3f+17uNenmZ/8dFdTRRRRRRRWXrGj2+pS281xPJEttuPy NtznHft0rD0nTtJ1iG5aGO7ihil2BlnYiQfSumsNPttNgMNpHsQtuPPU+v6VaoooooooooooqC+Y rY3DA4IiY59OK5zw7rWmaboFtFc3aLL8xZRy2Sx7CrkniuzUEx2t9IB0KwEA/nViO+iu9VsggdWN u8m0jlc7cA+la1Mj8zDeYVPPG0dqfRRRRRVPV5PJ0m7kxnELfyqt4XQp4esgwwdmfzJNatc3rUZs vEmnakoO1z5UmO+eB/OukoooooooooooooooooooooooprEKpJ6Ac1gaAoXWNRA6BhjI9hXQ0UUU UUU13WNGd2CqoySTgAVxuuaymtNNp9pcpFaxL5kk27mTH8IHfqPyq38Psf2JN6/aG/8AQVrqaKKK KKKKKKKKKa6LIjI6hlYEEHuKqx6VYRACK0ijx0KLtP5ip/s8OMeUhHutU7PSxbapdXxlLmcBVXGA gHb+VaNFFFFFFFZXieQx+Hrwr1KY/M4qxo6eVpFonTES/wAqu1ieLoydFecZzA6vx/vCteCVZ4I5 UOVdQw/GpKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKa6h0ZG6MMGuY0b/RtTv8MGIIAI5zkL+ddTRRRRRRWfrO lnVrZbc3UsEecuI8fOPSub8S6NBpnh5IY3klYzKsZcL8ucnsB71t+GNIl0bTngndHkeQudnQcAf0 rZoooooooooooooooooooooooorH8Wf8i5d/Qf8AoQrQ08Y0+2H/AEyX+VWKhurdLq1lt5BlZFKm sjwfM8miLHJkmGRowT3ANbtFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFcvo7PDql9byBVcOCMruP3RwfaunpaK KKKKKxNeC3N5ptl3M/mED0CtW3RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRWD4wcf2UkHeeZEH51uIoRFUcB RjinUVk6Lo8mlS3P+kmSGV90cfZP/r1Brc97LqdpplrcfZ1uFLNIo+YAdcGqFzb3drexWmkandzy 7gZEdgyRr3ye30rd1DV7LSzGt5NsMhwABn8fpVuGaK4iWWCRZI25DKcg1JRSU2OaKUsI5EfYcNtY HB9DWafEFiskwkdo44XKGRh8rMOoHrU1nrFnfSiO2eSQnv5TAD8cYqJNes5NUGnxeZJJkguq5UEd s1qUUUUUUUUUUUUVzulwKPFGosBwoGM9jha6KiiiiiiiuftEe58ZXk55jtoREvsTgn+ZroKKKKKK KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK5zxKDcappNmOjzbyfpXR0UUVyV9Ff6t4guJNPnSFLOPyS7HueWwe1aHh acNYTs0EUSRyFfMQkiTHVsnk1ki8Oq649xbxozHNvas44XHLOa6fTLBNL09LWNi4QElj3J5JrNsd cf8AsKXUJ03lZmUKDjvgZqbWDqJ0NmgZfOPzSeWcHZ3C574qI6lZaX4dF5bBgsi5jRySzN0qlpF8 2m6LOtxZXEM4jaZpHXiRj7/lUMqy2Xhawtrdtt3eyKd3fLHJP8q6CzhmsVd73UvOjIGA6qoU/Ws3 w1PFFdXemxsk6xsZUnjOQQx6H3roqKKKKKKKKKKKK57Swg8RaggIPzAjp/dFdDRRRRRRTJZBFE8j HARSx/Csfwnul0o3knMl1Kzk/jgfyrbooooooooooooooooooooooooorAv8y+MNOjH/ACyheQ/5 /Ct+iio5zKIJDAoaXadgJwCe1c1pOj6zDbXFvcSxQrcuXkdTubnqB6V0EdjDDp/2KJdkWwoMehrP i8N2senw2ollWSEllnjO1gT1rTtYPs1ukPmyS7Ry8jZZvrWU/hq2a4LC4nWBpPNa3DfIW9aXWdGu tSmjEOoSW9uRtliHRh7U+98PwXa2MRfbBaHITbktjtmrupWS6hYy2juUWQYLL1HNQ32jWl/bQQT7 wIPuMjbSOMU610iztrT7L5Zmi3bsTHfz+NWYLaC2TZbwxxL6IoFS0UUUUUUUUUUUVymnPu8RX21X UlhgDAzwP8K6uiiiiiiszxBdLb6Y8Q5luv3EQ9WYYq3Y2sdjZxW0Qwka4FWKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKKKKKKKwLf9741umHSK2VT9Sa36KKKgmvLW3bbPcwxn0dwP51MrK6hlIZSMgg8GhiFUsxAAGST 2rPs9csb28NrA7M+0sCUIVgOuD3rQyN23Iz1xS0UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU2RS0bKCQSCODg1zmh2ph 16+QsD5ZHbrwK6WiiiiiisFimr+JPLIzFpnzZ9ZDjH5YNb1FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFYOl Lu8TavJ/dCJ+lb1FFIRkEc8+lc3rujabZaFdSLbq0235ZJDucsT6mt3T4zDp9tGwwUiUH64rJ1y+ WTUbPSFlCCdt05zj5Bzj8cUkXkSeJTNCUFvZWm0sp+VST0/IVPo8j31xcarJ8sL/ALuAH+4Op/E0 0a5NdyMul6fJcxqSDMzBEJ9ietaFvdP/AGeLq9iFsQpZ1JztArNg164u8SWmlXD25IxKxAyM9QPS tyiiiiiiiiiiiiiimyLujZfUEdcVyH9ptpGt3rLaTTI5AAXnsOc8+lXz4mmYKYtJuyT1BTP05pH1 7UXQlNLlRc4yWVSD3606HUtflO6PS4GUdQZgDVgavqSsFm0K4HqY5FYU46vek4j0S7b/AHmVf600 6vqYJB0G4/CZDUF74gvbS0kml0a4iCj77OpAJ4HT3qLQLl7a1Ly6ZeedcZmklEeQ7HJH8+KvnXQp w+nX6/8AbEn+VB1+FeXs71V7kwNgU8eINNwC07J7NEw/pT013S3OBexg/wC1kfzp66vpzdL2E/8A AxTm1OxVdxuosezZo/tOzP3Z0b6MB/OnR39rJ0mQD/aYCj7fb+b5e/J45HI56U9bmFmwj7jjPygm pQQwyM/lS013VFLOwVR1JOBQkiOMo6sPY5p1FFFFFFFFFFFFYOhj/iea0f8Apqv8q3qKK5vWbiGT Wvs19PJHaxwhlSNmBkcn261Vh8Pz6nIGlnvLaxBBSGWUs7Y789K6mCJba3SIMzKi43O2Sfqa5jTd NttX13Ur25jWeBW8pN3IJ7kfStq+0pX0eex09Y7YyLgbRgfjVAW2ttpNxYvDaxgQeXEYmOSenf2p dP1yzsrSK1u4JrN4UClXjJBx3BHWrc2saRPbrHNdII7lCBuBAI6H6VU8LT7Wu9OSQTQWjARSg5yp 7V0FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFVjY2xO4RANnO4DmpWhjYEEcH0OP5Uz7Hb7dvl8fU1JHGkYIQYB7U+iisT xBIJp7DTMZ+1TAsP9lSGP8q2lUKoVRgAYApaKKY0UbnLIrH3FRNY2bnL2kDH3jBqGbS7Up+5s7VX z1MS/wCFQtodmx3NbQlvQLtHb0pJPD2nuc+SOmABx/KoD4dgVl2Lle481l/x60P4cQuXimeH0VXJ /Wg6LcrGdmoXPmgZHz4GaZ/ZV38khv7ncMZ3Lvwfao203UQAq3knzDPMfv3I71cOmXMCiWC9dpQA AXjB470x7XV3OXuoGKcjMXT6Go4ptYTDkRTAZ4DH/wDVTf7V1TzgrWXOM7QwA/HIq59t1cddIU/S 5X/CkGp33R9GuB9JEP8AWnf2nd4z/Y91/wB9J/jSPqtzGu5tIvD7LtJ/nUUmuyRRtJLpN8iqMsSq 4A/OtaKRZYkkjOUcBlPqDT6KKK57w7Ms2sayUJIMwwcccZHWuhooppVSwYqNw6HHIp1V7+3e7sZr eOTy2kUqH9Ki0nTk0vT47RG3bOWbGNxPU1dopCoYYYAj0NRvbwyR+XJDGyf3WUEflTbWztrNWW2g SIMckIMZNT0UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUVzyqNR8XCdDmKwi2H/fO4GuhooooooooooooooooppVT nKg59qdRRRUdxClxA8MgyjjBrJ8L3Uj2T2NyAtxZN5TD1UDg/wA/yraoopCMjB71zulxJa+LNQt7 ZQkBhR2QDgNXR0UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUVXv7yKws5LmZsJGM1meFbKW101pbjm a6czN68gVt0UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUVhaYc+J9T4xhEH863aKKKwdLAHirVweWKxkH0GOlb1FF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFc7q23W9YTReRBABNcMO/ov6g10IAAwOAKWiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiisSzUL4pvguMGFCceuTW3RRRWFofza3rT/APTZFz9BW7RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRVPVr1dP06e4JAZUOwHu2OBVTw3ZSW2nLLdDN3OS8rHqeeB+WK16KKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKKKKKKwdETGvawztl964+nNb1FFFcxY6hDp761eynMRutiAdWbGMCt7T5rme2El3brBIedgbdg e9WaKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK57W0Oo63p1ghykLefMPYEY/rXQ0UUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUVl6nqctjf2EIjUxXMhRmJ5B7VnNKtt4muLZLgie/iXy2CfcILZ784xW1pdvNbafDFcyt JMFzIzHPzHk1borI1PV203UrWOcILacFQxOCG9T7VzekFtT1w2saP9mgvHumLDH+6CPXNd3RRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRSEhQSTgDqa53w8j3WsapqLlijSeXEc9VUkf0FdHRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRVTUbGK/gCScFDuRwASp9RmsLwrY3U8smpasmbkMREWUKQMcnA9a6iiisbxLpb6nZ xGBImngkDqJBkMO4PsafoOktp0U0s777q5bzJiOgPoPzrWoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo orE8T3rRWP2G3JN3d/JGo69Rk/lV/SbP7BplvbEfMiDf7t3/AFq5RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRWY+jrLrqapLMWMabY49vC8Hv8AjWnRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRSEgAknAFc1o9jfX8D6hJqdzC8zkoqEbQoPHBrbtbEwyebNczXEuMZc4A+gHFNs tVtr64mgtyzND944464/pV2iqN3rOnWTtHc3kUbr1XOSPwFVf+El01yFtmmuGPRYomP9Ku6fcXFz E0lzaNbfNhFZgSR6nHSrdFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF ZfiO6ktdHmMOPOkxGn1biq9vZa7FZx2y3dnGioFDLExZRj64zT9Y1E6VpiwGUz30q+XFxgux4zis jQDF4auLq21OURvKqOrkHDcHIBq5c+JHk1Cxis4pBbSzBWldMB/YZ/nXR9K5VdT0uPxXevcyQhfL RFcjI3d+a2m1nSoSqrdwkucBYjuJP0FaNFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFcn4t1C7W8itdPkd GgQzzFTjjtn/AD3rp7eXzLWKViBuQMT+FRi/tDb/AGgXCeTnbvzxmq66vFOG+wwy3W3jci4Qn03G sbUNR8Q2kT3NybOzg3YVW+dvYcdTUmmw+Ib4R3FxqIgizkKIQGYf4Val1+ZtSnsLLTZLmSD7x8wK P1pdC1O9v76+ju0jiFuwQRrzg/XvTvEk7iC2s4M+bdTKgwcEAck1sAYAHpS1zeqreah4gGnW97JB Atvuk8s980iQS+HNStVS4lksLlvLZZGzsc9DWnJqxXVjYJau20BnkLABQe+PSqsmuz3MzxaPZG7C HDSs21M+x71fkvxbWMVxeRmNnKqUBHDHtU11dwWcJluJAi/qT6CpIpBLEsgDAMMgMMGn0UUUUUUU UVzXiae5XU9PSGzkuUjJk2qOC3QZNWraTxBcSRvMtpbRbhuTlmx6elOt9Hdtdm1S8dJCPlt1X+Bf f3rWeNHxvRWxyMjOKwLp0vvF1pbJ8yWaGRsdA3atq/CGxm8yNpFCElFzlvbisLwnpCJp8k95bJ5l w5ba6/dXsK3YLK0tjmC2ijPqqAGrFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFQXt3DY2slzOwVEGT/hWP otg93bXl7fptl1HPy45SPGAKy9esrzTtJEMurSyqSIoIUULu+p6nirGr2si6ZpOlWkY8x3UlX9AM nP41r6bbanFIrXN9byQgEGKKEKF9MHNZXjOP7TPpVoDzLPjGe3FdOSsceWICqOSewrj9JvdSku7/ AFCy0zz1uZPlkeQIAo6fWrfg97i5uNSvZY0RJpv4SfvD09uae2oWkniqV7m4ijjsotqb2Ayx610E E8VzEJYJFkjboynINP6Vh6ARcXmp6kx4km8tCeyrTFkTXNS83P8AxL7FtwY9JJB3+gpNDiXU7jUN TlBMdyTDGM/8sxx+tLp6y6HqMOlvN5tpOCYCRhkI/hPrWf4y1Fo9SsLaIrmNhKwbpnOBkVt2mjIJ lur+Zry5HIZxhU/3V6CtWiiiiiiiiiiiiiioIrS3hnlniiVZZeXYdWqajpS1TvdVsdPZVu7lI2bk Kckn8BVE+KdKB5llC5xvMLAfnithGV0V0OVYZBHcU6iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiobm1gu4xHc RLIgYMAfUVL04qCaytp7iK4liV5Ic7Cf4ao6poMep3kdxJdTxBF2lYzjI+tXrKyt9PtxBbJsjBzg kkk+uTWRLp95deLY7uVdtpax/uz/AHias+I4r25sUtbJCfPcJI4/hTvV+G1jgs1tYhsjVNgx24qH SdNj0qzFtE7ONxYs3Uk1Anh3SVkeQ2aO7kkl/m/nWjFFHDGI4kVEXoqjAFVNZluIdKuHtI2km24R V688ViaV4Ym+wRx399P5bDc1uh2jJ5OTW+2n2xsDYqnlwFdu1DjioLjSz/Za2NhcPZqmArJycelV dM8OrZ3a3d1dzXc6jCGQ8L9KLrwzaXt5c3V1JJI8yhV7eXj0q7ptreWitHc3v2pBgRlkAYD3Per1 FFFFFFFFFFRXNzDaQtNcSLHGvVmNY1jrc+q6wYLRFjtYRucyj55B2wOw6VvUVkXWs3MN5Nb2+lTX Iixl0YDORnvVGPxHqMuqGyj0dg+zdseUKR7k9MVJLbeI76bLXMOnw4xtjO9vzrZsrdrW2WF7iS4Y dZJDkmsiytZ7PW7u4vhblJ3zHM8mGA7KAaNZdNZlh0q1cSIZA9y6HIRR2z6mt5VCKFUYAGAKWiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiio5pooELzSJGo7scCnI6yIHRgynoQcg06kpaKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKjnmS3geaQ4RFLE+wrG0+0bV5F1TUVyh5t7c/dQepHcmlcq/i2L7Pg7Lcicr29Afen+KpZ4dJD W0rxSGZAGQ4PJqxrF7JpukyXKbTIgAG7oTVqz3tbRyTBfNdQzlRjmsnSnF14i1O5GdsQWEH6da3a KwPGVtBLorySRqZUIEbdwSR0rV0+1itLOKOKJI/kG7aoGTjrVqiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii is250W1vLhpr3dcc5RHY7V+gqt4RXbo23GMSuMfjW3XMS/afEWqvHDNJb2Nm+PMQ4Z39jUmjfbV1 65tW1Ca4trVAD5gHLHtn2q9qF/P/AGjDptkyLO6mR3ZdwRR/jWnnauWI4HJ7VmT+ItMgZl+0eYU6 iMbq0LW5iu7dLiBw8bjKsO9UzrmnC9Fn9pUzFtmACRu9M+taNFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFU9WtHvtNmton CO44J6fQ1nR2muXKrDcT29lAowRbZLEfU9K0tO02202Ix26HLHLOxyzH1JqDXrCTUNNaGBgsqssi Z6Eg5waz/sWqaxcxjVY47ezhYMIkOTIw9T6V0Pas7RdLbTEuA83mtPMZCcYxmtKiqGq6dBqMUYuZ ZEjibf8AK20HHrVuB45IUaJ96EfK2c5FSUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUVk3+p3cd2bfT7Vbho lDygnHHoPes+78VZQ2sGn3a3kgwiOgHP51taTa/Y9NghKlWC5YHruPJpNZu/sOlXFwPvKh2/U8Cs PSLfXLTT44LWG1RGG8yOTuJbnNbWkaaNOt2VpDLNKxeWQ/xNWTpl/Zpq+pXN9cRQTGTy0WRsEIKl 8TXYl0eJoJP9HmlVJJB2TPP4VqW1tp8VmscEcHkYHTBBHv61Lcws9lLDbsImKFUI42nFZHhfyEtD YyWwhu7Zv3isMlj/AHgfet6iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiqupWEWpWMlpPkJIOq9R7ipLO2js7S K2izsiUKM9eKmoooooooooooooooooooooooooorAGmapBe3j2k0KJdPuMrks6j0Aq9pujwWDNKW ee5f780hyx/wrRrC12K61C8tdOS3f7MWEks38OB2+tbgAUADoKWq89jaXD757aKRvVkBNSPBDJAY HiQxEY2EcY+lZg8NaUpO23KgnO0Ocflmr95a/arOS3WV4dy4DocFaqaVpH2CWSea6luriQBTJJ6D sBWnRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRXN+JtRulv7DTtPlKTyyBmI7DPf2610YzgZ61UutTt rW5htWYvPMcLGnJ+p9qtswVSzEAAZJPaqVrq9neXj2ttJ5jIu4so+UjOODU17eQ2Fs1xcMVjXrgZ qhFry3IU2mn3syt0bytq/ma1h0oBB6HNLSFgASSMCqljqlnfxGS3mUhWKkE4IP0pl9rNjp8qxXM2 1jjgDOM9M+lXgcjI6UtFFFFFNd1jjZ2OFUEn6Vkv4o0hFVmuGCt0Pltj+VRP4u0pZljVpnz/ABLE cVtqwYAg9RmkllSGJpZWCIgyzHoBSQzR3ESywuHRujCpKa7rGhd2CqOSScAVDa31reM4tp0l2HDb TkVYooooooooooooooqK4nitomlnkWNF6ljis1tZuWj8yDSbl4+oZmVAR68nNT6Nqf8Aa1obgW7w jcVAY53e4PpWhRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRUF7dw2NrJczttjjGTXM2+najNdxeIBEsk7sWFu7bdsZGFAP rWyjavdjEkcNih6kN5j/AIdhVDTbOCXxBLPAC8dqpRpWOTJKevPsKseJ9VistOlt0cG5nXYiAZPP GcVizTaZu0m1skmhmWZVLlGjbb3+uTW54tmSLQLgOcb9qD8SKbpevWlxcQ2EUE8YKfundMK4A7VY 8RXw0/R55Q5WVhsjx1LHpisbw5dtpmmyid3m3XHlRLnJZ8DOM+9X/EV80NtZwMXjkuJRvEfzEKOW xUFhaeHNUmcWweWRRudWkkH5gnFR+LNL06HSmlitkjuCypEU+XkkentRc6ZpujxQyLbNdahLhYVk ctuf1wewqx4dnuhc38eok+dGVLuWyvTsO1Kkl9r5LxSG003JAZf9ZN7+wrQu5I9J0aVkJCwRHbk5 JPb9a5xIr69S3ig1C6kvWUNN84EcIPrgcn2rYufENppsklvdNIxgVQ0gwS7H29au3OqW9rb288u8 JcMqr8vI3dM+lV4tUlutVe3tYA1rACJpj/e9F9asWGpw38lxHGkiPbttdZFAP86zfE0Kb9LYqu0X igrjrmt3Yo6KPyrJu55LfxNYruHlXMTxkY7jkUzVZZNRvF0i1bCjD3Ug/hX+79TWxHGkSBI1CqOg AxSTTR28TSzOqRoMszHgViPGdekE11uh0yM/IjHaZj6n2rXtEs4122ghAA6R4/pWZrl3fpeWtnps 8SSzZ4ZNxA9T6CrVibm2l8nUNRhuJH+4oQI36Vl3fiqGLXBaRB5I0GxggBLyE8AfSuhlmSGPfK21 e5PasXXRdXF9ZWsdyq29w2CiOVZgOScjtir9tZ2ejwSyI7pEF3OXcsBjvzWK2uancQT6jbm3t7CI /u/PB3Te3HStpdTWPR01G8jaAFAzJ3Ge1UrvVb2DUrYLFH9knlESq2fMbjJYewq7f2lxeSiNbiWC BVzuhbDM3p9KzNMtbjUrYzf2xfLHuZDGdoYEHH3gKvT3Fn4fsAu6Rsn5EZyzOfxqzpst1NaCW7EI ZzuXymyNp6c+tQTa5YWrzrdXEcXkttwW5JwD0/Gr8UiyxJIhyrgEHHaqWr6RBq8Ucc0kieW25TGc c1lanDLb/Z9Fs7mVpL3PmSysXZUA5I9K3rK1Sys4rWMkrEoUE9TU9FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFY9xptxq Oqh77b9hg5iiB++3q1a/SqmqteCwkFhGHuGG1ckDbnvzRpVimnWEdsnJUZZv7zHqarDSTLrx1G42 FY0CwqByPUn3pt7Z3M2t210VD21ujMFH3t9ZGqXl/qNzbA6JO1vA+943YAue1T6bcrqfilrjyZYf s9ttEci4KknmrKaXc6lqQvdVCpHCSILdTnH+0T60zSdAurO6j8+6SS2gZmiRVwST3NP1Wz1T+24b 6xSCVUiKKsrEbSepq9pa6kokOota5Y5UQKRj65qpc2N3qesxtdIsdjaNvjUEEyt6n0FVL5dSj8Rv dR6e10ojCW7bwFTPUmr0WmS22i3cRfzLu4Vmd/ViOlc/Yanck6ZY2N4ySACOW38r7mDySTU3jPUT O6adAxEUbqbiQDhc9B/WtyK607TNDN3alTbquQyjlz0/PNcz/wAI3Lc6VLqt1dNHLKGmZCuRjqPx q9qVxJqHhXT7gwu7CRSyqDk4yK19Gt57Dw+oEJ+0bWfyyeSx5AP6Uvh3T5bKxL3QP2u4cyzZOeT2 rPnnn1jXbWza2eFbKQzS7uhx93FdNXL+KmuRqumfYij3ALbI+4JGN30FbWk6cmnWgjzvlc7pZD1d u5q9XN3FzazeIJIdXmEccODbxPwj/wC0T0Jp+r22lXcgvL3Ut1vEMrAsg2ZHt3qtodhHEZdeaP7P HsYxQIMAL6n1qC0sLHVIzq2q3wjmlJbaswXYnYVpto6W+nH+whGJp8A3Dtltp7g1BN4Wit9I8uy5 vI3EolbqzDt9KLBb/XrppNSikt7OIBfs5GBI3cn1FV/E2631m0mb7VHAsLIjWw53eg9KrXujXLaV D9kF8z3koE6zvkqPUgdKu3NtDpeqWS3FvLLYRxBYQqblSTPUj1qXU7G41/VVt5FlgsLXkvjBkf2z /Omp4akGtpK1xdPaxJlGafLbvT6VsaxczWelzS20TyzBcIqgk5PGagsI00TQFM5OY0MknqWPJ/U1 mORFZS3+oFZr+6QpBAOdgI4VR/Ork80+keHLeKMILry1jUMcBTjk/hXP6RaW8t1ayahhluZZJPNl PMm3AAJP4mu6R0dA0bBlPQqcinVi6bDLca5fX9xE6bMQQBhj5epI+praoooooooooooooooooooo ooopKQKoYsFGT1OKdRRRRRSVGLeES+aIkEh43bRn86gttMtLXzfLhH75tz7ucmp2t4Wi8lokMf8A cKjH5U/Yu3btG3GMY4oVFRQqqFUdAKWlpMDOcDPrVbUr6LTrN7mXovCr3Y9gKo6Jp0qM+o3/AM17 OM4P/LNeyitiiobi1guk2XEMcq+jqD/OqMPh7TIZ/OS1TPYEZA/CtIqpTYQNuMYxxWWPDelCUyCz iyTnGOPyrURFjQIihVUYAAwBTqKTAPUUtFFFFRzwRXMLwzoHjcYZT3qnZaJp1hJ5ltbKsnZiSxH0 z0o1fR7fV0iS4eRVibd8hxn2qSfS7K5s1s5rdGhQAKv936U7T7C3023+z2qlY8k4LE81aqhfyakt 1brZRQtAzYlZj8y/QVfooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooqpd6dBeXFvNPuP2di ypn5SfUirdFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFf//Z ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C148C6.20F77FA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 09:42:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA28834; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:39:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:39:17 -0700 Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:47:18 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Frederick Sparber cc: Vortex Subject: Digital Meter Artifact..Has anyone seen this? MagnetoGravity Generator Design In-Reply-To: <022f01c148ed$6b9ec1e0$628f85ce computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"bzAsM.0.N27.raVjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: y Dear Fred, There is a common artifact you will see with electronic voltmeters and resistors with value larger than 10 ohms. If you use a mechanical non electronic meter and this is set to the microvolt or micro amp range you will sometimes see it it the impedance of the meter is 20,000 ohms to the volt or more sensitive. I strongly suggest you check the experiment for artifact as this particulat one has fooled a lot of people. I would like to know how the signal you may be seeing is determined to be from a "magneto gravitic" field? Please, what units of measure are employed to arrive at the conclusion there is an "enormous" field? And what are the units of magneto gravity measured against? Please. What is the result if you shield the resistor and leads with aluminum foil ....and making sure these are well connected with no intermitted contact and well insulated from one another, you bond or connect the electrostatic shield with the common or negative lead of the meter? ------ The most common varieties of artifact with digital voltmeter and resistor are electrostatic field, variable contact, piezoelectric and triboelectric fields from lead movement and induced currents from fair weather and stronger Earth electric fields and from building power line fields. I will be interested to see if you have the signal if you use a shielded 10 ohm resistor and a mechanical meter ...even one as sensitive as 1 to 10 microvolts, full scale. Q: What type of meter have you used to do these measurements, please? John On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Schnurer" > To: "Frederick Sparber" > Cc: "Vortex" > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 9:32 AM > Subject: Re: MagnetoGravity Generator Design > > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > y > > > > Dear Fred, > > > > How will this yield gravity modification? > > Gravity modification is not the goal, John. > > The proposed design is a shot of tapping into the Earth's enormous Magnetogravity > field to generate an EMF. > > This is based on the experiment posted to Vortex earlier > using a resistor connected to the leads of a Digital or Analog meter and moving the > thing rapidly to-and-fro and watching the meter/s register an EMF that IS NOT AFFECTED > by a strong bar magnet moved rapidly to-and-fro near the stationary resistor/test > leads. > > Regards, Frederick > > > > On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > To Vortex. > > > > > > I propose a MagnetoGravity Generator made by having a pair of metal disks spaced > with > > > 12 threaded studs arranged around/near the perimeter with one of the disks > isolated > > > from the driving shaft, with voltage pickup brushes in contact with the two disks, > > > mounted on a motor shaft so that they can be driven at various speeds and > orientations > > > wrt the Earth's Magnetogravity Field . > > > > > > Sort of a "Squirrel Cage-Ferris Wheel" Design. > > > > > > Picture that. :-) > > > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 11:28:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA23326; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:27:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:27:28 -0700 Message-ID: <028e01c1490b$7f5613a0$628f85ce computer> Reply-To: "Frederick Sparber" From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: Digital Meter Artifact..Has anyone seen this? MagnetoGravity Generator Design Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:22:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"ALzdY3.0.Oi5.GAXjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schnurer" To: "Frederick Sparber" Cc: "Vortex" Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 11:47 AM Subject: Digital Meter Artifact..Has anyone seen this? MagnetoGravity Generator Design > y > > > Dear Fred, > > > There is a common artifact you will see with electronic voltmeters > and resistors with value larger than 10 ohms. Explain it John. :-) > > If you use a mechanical non electronic meter and this is set to > the microvolt or micro amp range you will sometimes see it it the > impedance of the meter is 20,000 ohms to the volt or more sensitive. Done that. Explain it. > > > I strongly suggest you check the experiment for artifact as this > particulat one has fooled a lot of people. You do it. > > > I would like to know how the signal you may be seeing is > determined to be from a "magneto gravitic" field? Try the force of 9.8 Newtons on a 1.0 Kg mass at the Earth's surface. Wear safety shoes. > Please, what units of measure are employed to arrive at the > conclusion there is an "enormous" field? And what are the units of > magneto gravity measured against? Please. Ampere-meters/kg. (0.02583 to be precise). Fg = 1.0E-7 * (0.02583)^2 * M*1kg/R^2 = 9.8 Newtons M = mass of the Earth, 5.98E24 kg R = Radius of the Earth, 6.38E6 Meters Frederick > > > What is the result if you shield the resistor and leads > with aluminum foil ....and making > sure these are well connected with no intermitted contact and well > insulated from one another, you bond or connect the electrostatic shield > with the common or negative lead of the meter? > > > ------ > > The most common varieties of artifact with digital voltmeter > and resistor are electrostatic field, variable contact, piezoelectric and > triboelectric fields from lead movement and induced currents from fair > weather and stronger Earth electric fields and from building power line > fields. > > I will be interested to see if you have the signal if you use a > shielded 10 ohm resistor and a mechanical meter ...even one as sensitive > as 1 to 10 microvolts, full scale. > > Q: What type of meter have you used to do these measurements, > please? > > John > > > On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Schnurer" > > To: "Frederick Sparber" > > Cc: "Vortex" > > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 9:32 AM > > Subject: Re: MagnetoGravity Generator Design > > > > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > > > y > > > > > > Dear Fred, > > > > > > How will this yield gravity modification? > > > > Gravity modification is not the goal, John. > > > > The proposed design is a shot of tapping into the Earth's enormous Magnetogravity > > field to generate an EMF. > > > > This is based on the experiment posted to Vortex earlier > > using a resistor connected to the leads of a Digital or Analog meter and moving the > > thing rapidly to-and-fro and watching the meter/s register an EMF that IS NOT AFFECTED > > by a strong bar magnet moved rapidly to-and-fro near the stationary resistor/test > > leads. > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > > > > > To Vortex. > > > > > > > > I propose a MagnetoGravity Generator made by having a pair of metal disks spaced > > with > > > > 12 threaded studs arranged around/near the perimeter with one of the disks > > isolated > > > > from the driving shaft, with voltage pickup brushes in contact with the two disks, > > > > mounted on a motor shaft so that they can be driven at various speeds and > > orientations > > > > wrt the Earth's Magnetogravity Field . > > > > > > > > Sort of a "Squirrel Cage-Ferris Wheel" Design. > > > > > > > > Picture that. :-) > > > > > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 13:13:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20209; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:13:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:13:02 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20010929145922.0211e3d0 pop.infi-net.mindspring.com> X-Sender: stk pop.infi-net.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:09:50 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Subject: Re: Digital Meter Artifact..Has anyone seen this? MagnetoGravity Generator Design In-Reply-To: <028e01c1490b$7f5613a0$628f85ce computer> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"pTfYn.0.fx4.EjYjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:22 PM 9/29/01 -0500, you wrote: > > I strongly suggest you check the experiment for artifact as this > > particulat one has fooled a lot of people. > >You do it. Its not his experiment, it is yours. Perhaps you should do some further artifact testing before declaring on here that you have a "gravitomagnetic field detector" or whatever it is you think you have. YOU prove it. > > I would like to know how the signal you may be seeing is > > determined to be from a "magneto gravitic" field? > >Try the force of 9.8 Newtons on a 1.0 Kg mass at the Earth's >surface. Wear safety >shoes. That doesn't say a whole lot. What is this force, what generates it, how does it interact with equipment, and in what way? Wear safety shoes? Why? Is there thrust supposed to be produced by this gadget of yours? If so, and if its so simple, I would think it would have been noticed before. > > Please, what units of measure are employed to arrive at the > > conclusion there is an "enormous" field? And what are the units of > > magneto gravity measured against? Please. > >Ampere-meters/kg. (0.02583 to be precise). > >Fg = 1.0E-7 * (0.02583)^2 * M*1kg/R^2 = 9.8 Newtons >M = mass of the Earth, 5.98E24 kg >R = Radius of the Earth, 6.38E6 Meters Ok, thats a start. Now...what makes this, how does it make it, and how do we know it is there? Quote some references and experiments please. If you can't do this, and this is just a mathematical idea of yours, please tell us, then we will know we are dealing with a non-validated theory, and not a real-world set of experiments. Not meant to offend, but we didn't do the experiment. You did. Maybe you should take the time to shield it, and do further testing before jumping to a conclusion. It eliminates confusion and helps cast out artifacts. Regards, --Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 14:09:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02488; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:08:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:08:44 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: (fwd) Request to post this message at Voltex Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 07:08:50 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA02468 Resent-Message-ID: <"KS7cR1.0.oc.SXZjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Foreword: I am also personally replying to Hiroshi. --------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:45:16 +0900, "Yamamoto Hiroshi" wrote: >Dear Mr. Robin van Spaadonk > >This is Hiroshi Yamamoto. >I would like to ask you a favor once again. >I checked how to post my idea at the Voltex, but I couldn't find it, so you >are kindly requested to post the following at the Voltex. > >1 Reference on the abstract of JCF-3 >Authors who wish to present a technical paper at JCF-3 was requested to >submit abstract in a couple of page and it is only natural that you can not >see a lot of references on the technical paper of NO.16 on >http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/NEW.HTML > >2 CaO is a key >Many researchers in this field admire at Dr. Iwamura's very sophisticated >test equipment but I think one of the key for his success lies in >multi-layer Pd film with CaO. >I presented the following at the JCF-2, a year ago, but Mr. Jed Rothwell >doesn't like Hydrino and he went out the room even though I was a few >presenters in English. > >DISCUSSIONS >Dr. Y. Iwamura and et.al., have clearly shown that the following 3 >conditions are requisite to make cold fusion happen(6). >1 high D/Pd >2 enough diffusion flux of deuterium >3 the existence of a third element except Pd and deuterium. >They developed a multi-layer cathode made of Pd, CaO and Pd. >It is not clear how the crystal structure of CaO in this case, and how >strongly oxygen atoms are bound, but it is strongly recommended to study the >role of oxygen in this test >It is also well known that there must be some impurities or extra elements >in the palladium cathode to have a successful cold fusion by electrolysis of >heavy water. >A typical example of description of this is as follows. >" For many years, Dr. Martin Freischman has recommended a particular type of >palladium made by Johnson-Matthey which he calls ?Type A?. It was >developed a decade ago for use in hydrogen diffusion tubes. This material is >prepared by melting under a blanket gas of cracked ammonia the concentration >of five key classes of impurities being controlled. Electrodes were made a >succession of steps of square rolling, round rolling, and finally, drawing >with appropriate annealing steps in the production cycle"(7). >I have no idea what are five key classes of impurities but I suppose one of >which must be oxygen. >The reproducibility of excess heat generation using these proton conductive >ceramics was not necessarily good. It has been often reported that the first >try was good but second try was no good. The author speculates that during >the time before plating for the second try, oxygen had escaped and there >were not enough oxygen atoms because the atomic oxygen tends to do so in >some proton conductive ceramics. >SUMMARY >It was shown that atomic oxygen could play the catalytic role for generation >of "hydrino" in proton conductive ceramics. >Review on the past cold fusion experiments from this standpoint is strongly >recommended. > >REFERENCE >(1) Mills, R., "Lower-energy hydrogen method and structures", United State >Patent-6,024,935 >(2) Mills, R., "The Grand Unified Theory of Classical Quantum Mechanics", >Blacklight Power Inc., 1999 >(3) Yamamoto,H., "An Explanation of Anomalous Combustion of Brown?s Gas >using Dr. Mills? Hydrino Theory", SAE1999-01-3325 >(4) Biberian, J., ?Electrolysis of LaAlO3 Single Crystals and Ceramics in a >Deuteriated Atmosphere?, Proceedings of 7th International Conference on >Cold Fusion, 1998. >(5) Mizuno, T. et, al., ?Anomalous Heat Evolution from SrCeO3-Type Proton >Conductors during Absorption/Desorption in Alternate Electric Field?, >Proceedings of 4th International Conference on Cold Fusion, 1993. >(6) Rothwel,J., "The Collapse of the NHE Project", Infinite Energy Vol.5, >No.30, 2000. >(7) Iwamura, Y. et, al., "Detection of Anomalous Elements, X-ray and Excess >Heat Induced by Continuous Diffusion of Deuterium through Multi-layer >Cathode(Pd/CaO/Pd)", Proceedings of 7th International Conference on Cold >Fusion, 1998. > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 14:59:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15433; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:58:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:58:51 -0700 Message-ID: <029e01c14929$0691f4c0$628f85ce computer> Reply-To: "Frederick Sparber" From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010929145922.0211e3d0@pop.infi-net.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Digital Meter Artifact..Has anyone seen this? MagnetoGravity Generator Design Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:54:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"Dzx-s.0.0n3.RGajx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 3:09 PM Subject: Re: Digital Meter Artifact..Has anyone seen this? MagnetoGravity Generator Design Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > At 12:22 PM 9/29/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > I strongly suggest you check the experiment for artifact as this > > > particulat one has fooled a lot of people. > > > >You do it. > > Its not his experiment, it is yours. I was seeking replication. :-) > Perhaps you should do some further > artifact testing before declaring on here that you have a "gravitomagnetic > field detector" or whatever it is you think you have. YOU prove it. I am doing some further artifact testing. A strong bar magnet (cow magnet in the kilogauss range) moved rapidly near the resistor held rigid while connected to the test leads of two different digital meters has no effect, which seems to rule out the Earth's Geomagnetic field. A 1 inch wide x 3 inch long, PC board that has an interdigitated patteren vacuum coated with enough Nichrome to measure 312 ohms swings up to > 330 ohms when moved rapidly. This even shows up on an analog meter as a slight deflection, indicating that the effect is area sensitive. > > > > I would like to know how the signal you may be seeing is > > > determined to be from a "magneto gravitic" field? > > > >Try the force of 9.8 Newtons on a 1.0 Kg mass at the Earth's > >surface. Wear safety > >shoes. > > That doesn't say a whole lot. What is this force, what generates it, how > does it interact with equipment, and in what way? Wear safety shoes? Why? Ever drop a 1.0 kg mass on your foot from waist height, Kyle? :-) > Is there thrust supposed to be produced by this gadget of yours? Of course not, silly. I post an interesting effect with a question mark attached and you get bent out of shape. > If so, and > if its so simple, I would think it would have been noticed before. Where have I heard that stupid comment, before? > > > > Please, what units of measure are employed to arrive at the > > > conclusion there is an "enormous" field? And what are the units of > > > magneto gravity measured against? Please. > > > >Ampere-meters/kg. (0.02583 to be precise). > > > >Fg = 1.0E-7 * (0.02583)^2 * M*1kg/R^2 = 9.8 Newtons > >M = mass of the Earth, 5.98E24 kg > >R = Radius of the Earth, 6.38E6 Meters > > Ok, thats a start. Now...what makes this, how does it make it, Ask Mother Nature. > and how do > we know it is there? Drop a mass of a few kilograms on your foot from waist height. >Quote some references and experiments please. Try Newton and Cavendish for starters, or review your 5th grade general science texts. > > If you > can't do this, and this is just a mathematical idea of yours, please tell > us, then we will know we are dealing with a non-validated theory, and not a > real-world set of experiments. You gotta walk before you run. > > Not meant to offend, but we didn't do the experiment. You did. Maybe you > should take the time to shield it, and do further testing before jumping to > a conclusion. It eliminates confusion and helps cast out artifacts. Others that have more brains than you or I, and better equipment can do this. That is why I posted it. You might recall that EM effects were first discovered by the accidental artifact that a compass needle near a wire moved when there was a current flowing through the wire. But perhaps you have all the answers and are holding out on us? :-) Regards, Frederick > > Regards, > --Kyle R. Mcallister > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 15:28:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23437; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:27:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:27:34 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <01092822155400.01741 tyrannosaur> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:27:52 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Dear members of the Vortex forum: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"JNbp.0.7k5.Mhajx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > This interface is called Aphysical Dimensional Access Management, or ADAM. Sounds like something one would wish for or invent while, say, in prison or something. But seriously, I think my cat is probably implementing Aphysical Dimensional Access Management when he gets that far-away look in his eyes as he squats in his potty box. But but seriously, Aphysical Dimensional Access Management can be translated as "the ability to control dreams". One of these fine mornings, I think I'm going to keep a firm enough grip on that bag of gold coins to pull it all they way back from wherever with me as I wake up! Well, maybe I don't really think that anymore, but I did for a minute when I was 4. Quoth the raven: "nevermore". But but but seriously, this is psychotronics, or the Hutchison effect only working for Hutchison, etc. If that's all we got, we got nothing. Even if it's real, without consistent reproducibility at will (the scientific method), it is of no use to anyone. For instance, what good would a vehicle be if it would only run for a certain person and only when their attitude was just right, the stars were correctly aligned, and the vehicle really felt like it? Yeah I know, we'd call it a "horse". But it would still be a hassle, see? Let's get real. Dreaming of gold, - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI At 10:18 PM -0700 9/28/01, Joe Champion wrote: >There are many in this group that feel that Cold Fusion and Free Energy is >real. Furthermost, there are many people in this group that would like for >Cold Fusion to be real. Is it real or poppycock? > >I know that the phenomenon of transmutation is real. However, I have taken >a step beyond and challenged the fundamental constraints of science, as we >presently understand it. If you would be kind enough to go the following >address you will read the entire text. I did not want to overload your >email by copying it to the forum. > >http://www.transmutation.com/cf.htm > >If you agree or not, it is your decision. However, the reality prevails... >Count you eV's and try to find reality. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 15:36:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25487; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:36:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:36:26 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <024201c148f0$57d96360$628f85ce computer> References: <024201c148f0$57d96360$628f85ce computer> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:31:25 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"lCPIY3.0.9E6.gpajx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Barnett effect generator? >Attachment converted: HighSurf G3:mapi0.jpg 4 (JPEG/JVWR) (000EF1B3) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 16:07:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02422; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 16:06:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 16:06:59 -0700 Message-ID: <02da01c14932$8d992160$628f85ce computer> Reply-To: "Frederick Sparber" From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" , References: <024201c148f0$57d96360$628f85ce computer> Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:00:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"2HhPX.0.mb.JGbjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 5:31 PM Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design Don't know, Rick. But Robert Stirniman has looked a similar anomalies. "The Wallace Inventions, Spin Aligned Nuclei, The Gravitomagnetic Field, and The Tampere Experiment: Is there a connection? By: Robert Stirniman, May 1998 During the 1960s through the mid 1970s, Henry William Wallace was a scientist at GE Aerospace in Valley Forge PA, and GE Re-Entry Systems in Philadelphia. In the early 1970s, Wallace was issued patents (1,2,3) for some unusual inventions relating to the gravitational field. Wallace developed an experimental apparatus for generating and detecting a secondary gravitational field, which he named the kinemassic field, and which is now better known as the gravitomagnetic field"...... I might have met Wallace in the late 60's while working with the GE Valley Forge effort on the space program. I'm thinking that a brush type motor spun with the magnets removed and in a box shielded from the Geomagnetic Field, Might show some EMF. But the effect seems much more pronounced with a broad metal film resistor or such. Regards, Frederick > Barnett effect generator? > > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 16:44:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA11407; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 16:43:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 16:43:32 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20010929182147.02121890 pop.infi-net.mindspring.com> X-Sender: stk pop.infi-net.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:40:19 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Subject: Re: Digital Meter Artifact..Has anyone seen this? MagnetoGravity Generator Design In-Reply-To: <029e01c14929$0691f4c0$628f85ce computer> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010929145922.0211e3d0 pop.infi-net.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"hpGBR1.0.3o2.aobjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Ever drop a 1.0 kg mass on your foot from waist height, Kyle? :-) Everyone has done this at one time or another. This is weight caused by gravitation. Not "magnetogravitic field" etc. >Of course not, silly. I post an interesting effect with a question mark >attached and >you get bent out of shape. The only one I saw get bent out of shape was you, in response to John's questions. You seem to get bent out of shape many times about the things John asks or does. Do you have some personal vendetta against him? If so, why? > > If so, and > > if its so simple, I would think it would have been noticed before. > >Where have I heard that stupid comment, before? I could very well be wrong. But, with something so simple having been done many times in the past by moving equipment, I would think it would have been noticed. As to stupid, well, the manner in which you post things and how you say them does leave something to be desired at times. > > Ok, thats a start. Now...what makes this, how does it make it, > >Ask Mother Nature. This is a non answer. I will phrase my question simply: Where do you get the idea that there is some "magneto gravity" force causing your instruments to act funny when moved? Where do you derive the idea of such a thing from? Is this perfectly clear now? > > and how do > > we know it is there? > >Drop a mass of a few kilograms on your foot from waist height. This is weight caused by gravity, not magnetogravity! If you mean "gravity" say "gravity" not "magnetogravity". I am asking you about the supposed magnetogravitational field, where it comes from and why it does what you think it does. Will you or will you not answer this? If not, then kindly stop posting about it. Its a waste of bandwidth and time if you won't explain things. > >Quote some references and experiments please. > >Try Newton and Cavendish for starters, or review your >5th grade general science texts. Oh please. They don't say a f***ing thing about magnetogravity! They speak of GRAVITATION. Not the other. For God's sake stop dodging the issue. >You gotta walk before you run. You must also look before you take those first few steps. >Others that have more brains than you or I, and better equipment can do >this. That is >why I posted it. My brains are fine, thank you. Someone with more brains than us...I can think of someone. If I recall correctly, his name is "John Herman Schnurer". He's also more restrained and has much less of a temper than I do. We would do well to listen to what he has to say. >But perhaps you have all the answers and are holding out on us? :-) Whatever. I know I don't have the answers. If I did, would I have asked you to explain what in the hell a magnetogravity field was, and why you get the idea it is causing your resistors to act funny? Why don't you just answer the questions, and then we can work on the problem. Ok? --Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 17:14:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA18488; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:13:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:13:38 -0700 Message-ID: <02ec01c1493b$dad6e8a0$628f85ce computer> Reply-To: "Frederick Sparber" From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <5.0.0.25.0.20010929145922.0211e3d0@pop.infi-net.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20010929182147.02121890@pop.infi-net.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Digital Meter Artifact..Has anyone seen this? MagnetoGravity Generator Design Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:09:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"rf2WI.0.oW4.oEcjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 6:40 PM Subject: Re: Digital Meter Artifact..Has anyone seen this? MagnetoGravity Generator Design Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > >You seem to get bent out of shape many times about the things > John asks or does. Do you have some personal vendetta against him? If so, why? Not really, John is a darn sincere person. But if he would only stop changing the thread subject titles. :-) > > I could very well be wrong. But, with something so simple having been done > many times in the past by moving equipment, I would think it would have > been noticed. It probably has, but has been shrugged off as an "Artifact". > >Where do you get > the idea that there is some "magneto gravity" force causing your > instruments to act funny when moved? Where do you derive the idea of such a > thing from? Is this perfectly clear now? I get the idea from a Wave Circle "Model" of quarks that is based along the lines of "Superstring" Theory and about two decades of work, and more recently about $2K in an experiment that infers/demands that there be a Relativistic Force Field (Magnetogravity) between particles. The post to vortex (which I don't frequent very often these days) is a follow up to the "Model" posted to vortex since 1998. > >Will you or will you not answer this? If not, then kindly > stop posting about it. Its a waste of bandwidth and time if you won't > explain things. Did you buy out Bill Beaty? > > > My brains are fine, thank you. That's good! Regards, Frederick > > --Kyle R. Mcallister > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 17:30:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA21936; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:30:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:30:08 -0700 Message-ID: <030401c1493e$29baea00$628f85ce computer> Reply-To: "Frederick Sparber" From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:26:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"_MSqv2.0.ZM5.GUcjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick wrote: Barnett Effect Generator? I missed Robert Stirniman's comments on the Barnett Effect, Rick. It's in here. Interesting thanks. "Wallace's experiments were based on aligning the nuclear spin of elements and isotopes which have an odd number of nucleons. These materials are characterized by a total nuclear spin which is an odd integral multiple of one-half, resulting in one nucleon with un-paired spin. Wallace drew an analogy between the un-paired angular momentum in these materials, and the un-paired magnetic moments of electrons in ferromagnetic materials. Wallace created nuclear spin alignment by rapidly spinning a brass disk, of which essentially all isotopes have an odd number of nucleons. Nuclear spin becomes aligned in the spinning disk due to precession of nuclear angular momentum in inertial space -- a process similar to the magnetization developed by rapidly spinning a ferrous material (known as the Barnett effect). The gravitomagnetic field generated by the spinning disk is tightly coupled (0.01 inch air gap) to a gravitomagnetic field circuit composed of material having half integral nuclear spin, and analogous to magnetic core material in transformers and motors. The gravitomagnetic field is transmitted through the field circuit and focused by the field material to a small space where it can be detected." Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 18:08:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA30793; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:07:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:07:29 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <02da01c14932$8d992160$628f85ce computer> References: <024201c148f0$57d96360$628f85ce computer> <02da01c14932$8d992160$628f85ce computer> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:07:34 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"0FWve3.0.2X7.G1djx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick - In experiments I thought were so terrible I may not have bothered to mention them, around the time I was trying Tinsley's capacitor experiments, one of the things I did was spin them in a ~300 rpm casting centrifuge. The charge increased quite a bit from the pre-spin levels. Artifact city though, as air is blowing over the leads and there is general cooling (cooling causes a charge decrease on unmoving capacitors though) and squeezing from g-forces. I tried a run with the caps sealed to protected from wind, and the effect was still there, so maybe it's just squeezing. Or something else. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 18:17:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA01426; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:16:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:16:37 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <024201c148f0$57d96360$628f85ce computer> <02da01c14932$8d992160$628f85ce computer> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 15:17:00 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"xYLEw2.0.CM.q9djx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >Frederick - > >In experiments I thought were so terrible I may not have bothered to >mention them, around the time I was trying Tinsley's capacitor >experiments, one of the things I did was spin them in a ~300 rpm >casting centrifuge. [snip] Another thing I read somewhere was that slamming caps on the floor charges them. In even worse experiments (we seem to be in a decline here) I tried that too, and it worked. Again, the conclusion to jump to is that squeezing them adds charge. I tried squeezing them in my fist and no unusual charging occurs. Well, the shell keeps the guts from being squeezed in that case, but g forces squeeze the guts, right? It's always something. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 18:38:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA08248; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:37:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:37:28 -0700 Message-ID: <033101c14947$93bfa2c0$628f85ce computer> Reply-To: "Frederick Sparber" From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <024201c148f0$57d96360$628f85ce computer> <02da01c14932$8d992160$628f85ce@computer> Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:32:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"cepaW.0.n02.OTdjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 8:07 PM Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design Rick wrote: > Frederick - > > In experiments I thought were so terrible I may not have bothered to > mention them, around the time I was trying Tinsley's capacitor > experiments, one of the things I did was spin them in a ~300 rpm > casting centrifuge. The charge increased quite a bit from the > pre-spin levels. Artifact city though, as air is blowing over the > leads and there is general cooling (cooling causes a charge decrease > on unmoving capacitors though) and squeezing from g-forces. I tried a > run with the caps sealed to protected from wind, and the effect was > still there, so maybe it's just squeezing. Or something else. I'll choose the latter. :-) More questions than answers, for what I thought would be a "trivial experiment" on an effect I noticed many years ago (ca.1992) and passed it on to Hal and Scott and they tried it with similar results and we wrote it off as interaction with the 0.5 gauss Geomagnetic Field. But, this doesn't happen when you rapidly run a powerful bar magnet past the clamped resistor-test leads. After seeing the Wallace and Barnette Effects, one begins to wonder about being hasty in writing off "artifacts". Regards, Frederick > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 19:22:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA19079; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:21:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:21:35 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010929212543.0096e670 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:29:42 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design In-Reply-To: References: <024201c148f0$57d96360$628f85ce computer> <02da01c14932$8d992160$628f85ce computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Ji9nG.0.yf4.k6ejx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:17 PM 9/29/01 -1000, you wrote: >I wrote: > >>Frederick - >> >>In experiments I thought were so terrible I may not have bothered to >>mention them, around the time I was trying Tinsley's capacitor >>experiments, one of the things I did was spin them in a ~300 rpm casting >>centrifuge. [snip] > >Another thing I read somewhere was that slamming caps on the floor charges >them. In even worse experiments (we seem to be in a decline here) I tried >that too, and it worked. Again, the conclusion to jump to is that >squeezing them adds charge. I tried squeezing them in my fist and no >unusual charging occurs. Well, the shell keeps the guts from being >squeezed in that case, but g forces squeeze the guts, right? It's always >something. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Rick: It was always my understanding that even the best dielectric material has some piezoelectric effect. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 19:31:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA20893; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:31:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:31:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3BB68431.639D36AA ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:32:17 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: JCF-3 PDF Abstract readability Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2LZ0_.0.N65.vFejx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: September 29, 2001 Adobe does offered free downloads of their Adobe Acrobat Readers from their web site. They offer Acrobat Readers v 5.0 with something like 22 language versions of which Japanese is one. These versions also works in English. So, in order to read the JCF-3 Abstracts, and other stuff, download the Japanese Acrobat into your computer and unzip it. Load in the program, then access the Japan CF Society web site, close the copyright notice, and click on the english language version, and start downloading the PDF Abstracts or save it to file for later access. Its 52 pages long. The JCF-2 Abstracts are 58 pages long. Good luck. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 19:39:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22490; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:39:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:39:05 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010929213439.00a64300 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:47:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Dear members of the Vortex forum: In-Reply-To: References: <01092822155400.01741 tyrannosaur> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"SmXYV3.0.KV5.9Nejx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:27 PM 9/29/01 -1000, you wrote: >For instance, what good would a vehicle be if it would only run for a >certain person and only when their attitude was just right, the stars were >correctly aligned, and the vehicle really felt like it? Yeah I know, we'd >call it a "horse". But it would still be a hassle, see? Rick: Actually I have had better luck with horses. I would call it a mule.... or... or maybe a TR7 :-) And of course you remember those Opal GTs and how they always seem to be covered with dents... The owners do that to them in fits of anger. :-) I had some trouble with this one too. When it got to the "serious science" was not reliable because of a "psychic effect" I almost fell out of my chair. I rather think there are some artifacts here that simply have not been identified yet. But then I tend to be a bit skeptical. Maybe this guy has been into Bill's prayer based nano-tech bad karma paint. :-) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 19:55:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA25727; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:54:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:54:24 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010929215114.00a60100 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 22:02:35 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: JCF-3 PDF Abstract readability In-Reply-To: <3BB68431.639D36AA ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"yCcoR2.0.vH6.Wbejx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:32 PM 9/29/01 -0700, you wrote: >September 29, 2001 > >Adobe does offered free downloads of their Adobe Acrobat Readers from >their web site. >They offer Acrobat Readers v 5.0 with something like 22 language >versions of which Japanese is one. These versions also works in English. > >So, in order to read the JCF-3 Abstracts, and other stuff, download the >Japanese Acrobat into your computer and unzip it. Load in the program, >then access the Japan CF Society web site, close the copyright notice, >and click on the english language version, and start downloading the PDF >Abstracts or save it to file for later access. Its 52 pages long. The >JCF-2 Abstracts are 58 pages long. Good luck. > >-AK- Good Akira: and VO As you are probably already aware automated translations are poor at best. Syntax and formatting is different between our two languages. Having worked with many Asian engineers in my field I find your English to be quite good and understandable. It may be that I am accustomed to poor translations. :-) In this case I believe it would be beneficial that we work together to assist those who are not able to understand portions of the translated text. We can Work together on concepts to make better translations. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Sep 29 21:11:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA10954; Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:07:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:07:49 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Mills' hearsay Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:07:55 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <001601c145e0$9416d640$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BB0CACA.C3E3ADF5@ix.netcom.com> <002701c146a9$f51cb080$aa69fea9@cpq> <005901c146e3$d2339180$aa69fea9@cpq> <7775rtkhh4841fokluvuv7684k2alet4f8@4ax.com> <000f01c 1476a$6019e5e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <000b01c14830$f71a2380$aa69fea9@cpq> In-Reply-To: <000b01c14830$f71a2380$aa69fea9 cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA10928 Resent-Message-ID: <"nYTzU3.0._g2.Lgfjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:19:27 -0700: [snip] >Full speculation alert! > >I can't get the numbers to add up using the proposed CQM spectra and >shrinkage, but it goes something like this. Lets say Mills got it half-wrong >and that the electron of the hydrino is immaterial to the energy balance >below a certain level, say n=2 and that excess energy at higher shrinkage >levels comes from the mass of the nucleus. If rest mass is tied to the electrostatic potential field, then increasing cancellation of the nuclear Coulomb field by that of the electron as the electron shrinks results in a loss of mass of both the nucleus and the electron, resulting in energy being liberated equal to the combined mass loss x c^2 minus the relativistic mass increase of the electron as it speeds up in its smaller orbit. All of which can be found neatly worked out on my web page. >This assumes that quarks are >either divisible (subquarks) or that quarks themselves can shrink or most >likely that there is something else normally held in or near the nucleus by >charge, Now you are getting close. The one thing that almost no one sees is that mass is an external property of particles, not an internal property. By this I mean that the mass of a particle resides in its potential field, which by definition resides outside the particle. This makes perfect sense, when you consider that mass is that property of particles which relates to their interactions with their environment (i.e. mass is measured either by means of gravity or inertia, both of which pertain to the environment of a particle). This is also the primary clue to one form of anti-gravity transport. Cut a particle off from its environment (or change the nature of that interaction) and it becomes massless (this is the equivalent of enclosing it in a "hyperspace" bubble). >This is where the light lepton could possibly come in (maybe the >gluon is some wierd sort of LL). Maybe there are no gluons. See http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/checker.ppt . >At some stage of shrinkage (it could be as >high as n=2 and certainly is higher than about n=5 since we don't see >gammas) the process becomes auto-catalytic and full collapse cannot be >halted, kind of like that awful image on TV of late which we are constantly >forced to watch. Other than disproportionation, I have seen nothing to indicate that the process can be "auto-catalytic". However if Mills is correct about n=1/16 being the most tightly bound level of hydrinohydride, then everything beyond that is less tightly bound, and if a sufficiently strong oxidising ion is present in the plasma to remove the electron from H-[n=1/16], then it will also remove the electron from all the successive levels, ensuring that Hy shrinks past n=1/25 and can no longer retain a second electron at all. In which case it is doomed to remain as a hydrino, and is continually exposed to shrinkage by catalyst until it hits the minimum size (n=1/137 according to Mills, n~=1/124 according to me). Whether or not it undergoes fusion before then depends on whether Mills is correct, or I am. If Mills is correct, then at n=1/137, it has a radius of ao/137 ~ 386 fm, while if I am correct at n=1/124 it has a radius of ao/(124^2) ~ 3.4 fm. Negative muon catalyzed fusion (which happens rapidly) occurs at ao/207 ~ 256 fm. If I am correct, then this radius is attained when n=1/15, which would tend to explain why Mills has not identified any hydrino compounds with much smaller n than this (AFAIK). [snip] >At some stage, does the de Broglie wavelength of the collapsing nucleus, >virtual or real, ever get in phase with that an inner orbital electron? I would say perhaps only during EC, as quarks probably have a De Broglie wavelength equal to their own circumference, which needless to say has to be smaller than that of a proton/neutron. >Probably not, but if it did EC could result, the quark could flip from up to >down and the momentum of the capture would probably pull the new baryon into >the nucleus of the matrix atom. [snip] >There are any number of serious problems, like spin, with this "not even >half-baked" scenario, but they pale in comparison to the idea that a ~23 MeV >alpha can distribute its energy equally into surrounding particles with no >photon output. Yet, this scenario is only a slight adaption of the Mössbauer effect (which is quite real). >I can say this with a certain amount of certainty just >because our technical understanding of energy transport is far more mature >than our understanding of nuclear dynamics (Zimmerman notwithstanding). Excellent, then perhaps you can explain to me why this can't work? > > >> >What energy levels are you assuming and why don't they add up? > >> Neutron absorption generally releases 6-8 MeV / neutron. >> Absorption of a deuterino with release of an alpha would probably >> release on the order of 4-10 MeV, depending on the specific reaction. >> Fusion to He4 on the other hand releases 23.8 MeV, and as far as I know >> actual energies reported are close to this figure. > >I don't think the actual figures are anywhere near that precise. A wider >range than from 4 to 23 could be easily supported by observations of the >excess. At ICCF8, in their paper "The Emergence of a Coherent Explanation for Anomalies Observed in D/Pd and H/Pd Systems", McKubre,Tanzella,Tripodi, and Hagelstein report 104+-10% of the energy expected from D + D->He4. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 00:03:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA12106; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 00:02:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 00:02:34 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [216.67.194.202] From: "Joe Champion" To: References: <01092822155400.01741@tyrannosaur> <4.2.0.58.20010929213439.00a64300@pop.mail.yahoo.com > Subject: Re: Dear members of the Vortex forum: Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 00:02:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C14943.382D1680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Sep 2001 07:02:42.0006 (UTC) FILETIME=[E5E8BF60:01C1497D] Resent-Message-ID: <"y9GHy3.0.3z2.9Eijx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C14943.382D1680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Monteverde and Ford, You seem to be having great fun at my expense. Enjoy while you are = able. So that there are no questions, I truly do not give a fuck what = you think about me. However, you have crossed the line. If you had the = ability to read what is posted on the Internet, you would of read a = quote from a letter by Professor John O'M Bockris..=20 If you are not aware of Bockris, he was a Distinguished Professor of = Chemistry at Texas A&M University. In addition, he is published in every = Free Energy and Cold Fusion Magazine. In addition he was the mentor for = Flieshman. However, there is something of greater importance, Bockris = is my friend. I do not care if challenge me for slime washes off (if this was not a = public forum, I would of said shit). However for the sake of those who = have not read the insert from one of many communications between Bockris = and I, I have included the following excerpt: Bockris said: Again, George Miley at the University of Illinois, - nuclear chemist = with a fine reputation within the Establishment, is reporting = transmutation of metals, - first done in modern times at Texas A & M = University! He and his students can do it again and again. He now = publishes papers about it in established nuclear science journals. The only thing that I can say at the present time is that: 1. There is without a doubt a "psychic transmutation" and I suspect that = this is what happened in the Middle Ages with some alchemists who = apparently really did do it in quite large amount. 2. It seems that, - perhaps, - it also happens without special import = from the operator. There is evidence that it happens in plants as well = as in metals. So, I think at the moment, we will have to run the two things along in = parallel. Occasionally, one does get glimpses of a psychic influence. = The Utah group, - the original one in which F. & P. had formed, - = couldn't get Tritium at all. Then Nigel Packham visited Slat Lake, - he = didn't go in the lab, but he stayed at a meeting a few hundred yards = away, immediately, they got Tritium! They didn't get it again when Nigel left town. The entire letter can be viewed at: = http://www.transmutation.com/bockrisletter.htm So enjoy, but there is an answer. Soon you will learn.... Joe Champion View the New Reality! www.transmutation.com Email: jchampion citlink.net ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C14943.382D1680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. Monteverde and Ford,
 
You seem to be having great fun at my=20 expense.  Enjoy while you are able.  So that there are no = questions, I=20 truly do not give a fuck what you think about me.  However, you = have=20 crossed the line.  If you had the ability to read what is posted on = the=20 Internet, you would of read a quote from a letter by Professor John = O’M=20 Bockris……
 
If you are not aware of Bockris, he was = a=20 Distinguished Professor of Chemistry at Texas A&M University. In = addition,=20 he is published in every Free Energy and Cold Fusion Magazine. In = addition he=20 was the mentor for Flieshman.  However, there is something of = greater=20 importance, Bockris is my friend.
 
I do not care if challenge me for slime = washes off=20 (if this was not a public forum, I would of said shit).  However = for the=20 sake of those who have not read the insert from one of many = communications=20 between Bockris and I, I have included the following = excerpt:
 
Bockris said:
 
Again, George Miley at the = University of=20 Illinois, - nuclear chemist with a fine reputation within the = Establishment, is=20 reporting transmutation of metals, - first done in modern times at Texas = A &=20 M University!  He and his students can do it again and again.  = He now=20 publishes papers about it in established nuclear science=20 journals.
 
The only thing that I can say at = the present=20 time is that:
 
1. There is without a doubt a = “psychic=20 transmutation” and I suspect that this is what happened in the = Middle Ages with=20 some alchemists who apparently really did do it in quite large = amount.
2. It=20 seems that, - perhaps, - it also happens without special import from the = operator.  There is evidence that it happens in plants as well as = in=20 metals.
 
So, I think at the moment, we will = have to run=20 the two things along in parallel.  Occasionally, one does get = glimpses of a=20 psychic influence.  The Utah group, - the original one in which F. = & P.=20 had formed, - couldn’t get Tritium at all.  Then Nigel = Packham visited Slat=20 Lake, - he didn’t go in the lab, but he stayed at a meeting a few = hundred yards=20 away, immediately, they got Tritium!
 
They didn’t get it again when = Nigel left=20 town.
 
The entire letter can be viewed at: = http://www.transmutation.com/bockrisletter.htm
 
So enjoy, but there is an = answer…  Soon you=20 will learn……..
Joe Champion
 
View the New Reality!
www.transmutation.com = Email: jchampion citlink.net
 

 
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C14943.382D1680-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 03:44:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA13341; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 03:42:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 03:42:00 -0700 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 06:50:05 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: Frederick Sparber cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Generator Design BT... Question In-Reply-To: <029e01c14929$0691f4c0$628f85ce computer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8srzd.0.IG3.uRljx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Fredrick and Vo., First Fredrick, please: Background.... you have been writng about a Magneto Gravity Field. You have strong feelings that what many people call gravity is maybe Magneto Gravity ... in part or whole ... so here is the question(s) Q: Will you please let us all know in lay terms what helps you to believe in a Magneto Gravity field...? Q: More specifically ... can you please let us know in lay terms where the "Magneto" part comes from? Please. Q: Are there any experiments which demonstrate the Magneto part of the Magneto Gravity...or is this a theory? Q: If this is a theory, using lay terms and leaving as much word salad as is possible out, can you help us toward your way of thinking that would be understandable by a high school student... and you get to go bck in time to 1960 to 1965 for the high school education level. Please I ask this becasue there are many many theories wherein someone takes a perfectly good word..... and sticks a new term onto it... BUT... the originators cannot let a straight answer gey by about how the NEW WORD came to be put where it is! Quantum jelly and quark peanut butter ....... Dear Folks, The main artifact or effect that is pronounced is from AC line frequency. This will tend to be greater near or in presence of: CRT, television, LCD graphic display Fluorescent lamps Wiring associated with lamp dimmers Near houses that have telemeter signals from power company, fire department etc Near wide band data links Near wireless phones, computer links and other PCS O -scopes "Negative ion genertators" Basic sources of EMI-RFI TESTS: Make two basic partial shields: Conductive metal screen, non magnetic "" "" magnetic When using the shields in different combinations, try: 1] Screen floating 1-M] same as one, magnetic screen 1-NM] same, but non magnetic 1-B] both 2] Screen connected to Earth Ground and same series as in 1 ..... 3] Screen connected to the Common lead of Digital Meter or Negative terminal of electromechanical moving coil meter movement and the obligatory set as 1 and 2 4] Screen to Earth and to Meter 5] Move the element which gives a "reading" and go Wander 'round and about .... BUT....! no shield screen 6] Wander with screen My findings On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 3:09 PM > Subject: Re: Digital Meter Artifact..Has anyone seen this? MagnetoGravity Generator > Design > > Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > > > At 12:22 PM 9/29/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > I strongly suggest you check the experiment for artifact as this > > > > particulat one has fooled a lot of people. > > > > > >You do it. > > > > Its not his experiment, it is yours. > > I was seeking replication. :-) > > > > Perhaps you should do some further > > artifact testing before declaring on here that you have a "gravitomagnetic > > field detector" or whatever it is you think you have. YOU prove it. > > I am doing some further artifact testing. A strong bar magnet (cow magnet in the > kilogauss range) moved rapidly near the resistor held rigid while connected to the > test leads of two different digital meters has no effect, which seems to rule out the > Earth's Geomagnetic field. > > A 1 inch wide x 3 inch long, PC board that has an interdigitated patteren vacuum > coated with enough Nichrome to measure 312 ohms swings up to > 330 ohms when moved > rapidly. This even shows up on an analog meter as a slight deflection, indicating that > the effect is area sensitive. > > > > > > I would like to know how the signal you may be seeing is > > > > determined to be from a "magneto gravitic" field? > > > > > >Try the force of 9.8 Newtons on a 1.0 Kg mass at the Earth's > > >surface. Wear safety > > >shoes. > > > > That doesn't say a whole lot. What is this force, what generates it, how > > does it interact with equipment, and in what way? Wear safety shoes? Why? > > Ever drop a 1.0 kg mass on your foot from waist height, Kyle? :-) > > Is there thrust supposed to be produced by this gadget of yours? > > Of course not, silly. I post an interesting effect with a question mark attached and > you get bent out of shape. > > > If so, and > > if its so simple, I would think it would have been noticed before. > > Where have I heard that stupid comment, before? > > > > > > Please, what units of measure are employed to arrive at the > > > > conclusion there is an "enormous" field? And what are the units of > > > > magneto gravity measured against? Please. > > > > > >Ampere-meters/kg. (0.02583 to be precise). > > > > > >Fg = 1.0E-7 * (0.02583)^2 * M*1kg/R^2 = 9.8 Newtons > > >M = mass of the Earth, 5.98E24 kg > > >R = Radius of the Earth, 6.38E6 Meters > > > > Ok, thats a start. Now...what makes this, how does it make it, > > Ask Mother Nature. > > > > and how do > > we know it is there? > > Drop a mass of a few kilograms on your foot from waist height. > > > >Quote some references and experiments please. > > Try Newton and Cavendish for starters, or review your > 5th grade general science texts. > > > > > If you > > can't do this, and this is just a mathematical idea of yours, please tell > > us, then we will know we are dealing with a non-validated theory, and not a > > real-world set of experiments. > > You gotta walk before you run. > > > > > > Not meant to offend, but we didn't do the experiment. You did. Maybe you > > should take the time to shield it, and do further testing before jumping to > > a conclusion. It eliminates confusion and helps cast out artifacts. > > Others that have more brains than you or I, and better equipment can do this. That is > why I posted it. > > You might recall that EM effects were first discovered by the accidental artifact that > a compass needle near a wire moved when there was a current flowing through the wire. > > But perhaps you have all the answers and are holding out on us? :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > > Regards, > > --Kyle R. Mcallister > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 05:46:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA01857; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 05:45:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 05:45:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host p229-nas8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.218.229] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3BB71234.C5EFD981 ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 00:38:13 +1200 From: John Berry Reply-To: Pls send a Cc for backup to X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Schnurer , vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Barkers process Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4UOzE3.0.xS.pFnjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I would like to increase the decay rate of some radium I have. While I understand you have positive results it is unclear to me if you witnessed any increase in rate of radioactive decay or merely found the decay rate to drop off fast. As you have been putting the majority of your emails in the form of questions for some time now I hope you don't mind, and if possible please answer each question as plainly as possible: What do you think my chances are of getting increasing radiation from radium, 2, 10, 100 times the normal radiation count of a sample. (watch hand) Also what voltage would you suggest? Does the count drop the instant it's removed from the Van De Graaff. (or other charged sphere) How long should the potential be applied to the sphere. Is my understanding correct that you charge the sphere for only a short time but for some reason keep it in the sphere from there after. Any idea why you can't you take it out? What would you expect leaving the sphere charged do ? Thank You, John Berry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 06:45:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13852; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 06:44:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 06:44:21 -0700 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:52:26 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: MagnetoGravity Generator Design Stop the presses.... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010929182147.02121890 pop.infi-net.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"HeIYZ2.0.JO3.r6ojx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Question: Why magneto gravitic? Why not pressure-gravitic or electro-gravitic or EM-gravritic? On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > >Ever drop a 1.0 kg mass on your foot from waist height, Kyle? :-) > > Everyone has done this at one time or another. This is weight caused by > gravitation. Not "magnetogravitic field" etc. > > >Of course not, silly. I post an interesting effect with a question mark > >attached and > >you get bent out of shape. > > The only one I saw get bent out of shape was you, in response to John's > questions. You seem to get bent out of shape many times about the things > John asks or does. Do you have some personal vendetta against him? If so, why? > > > > If so, and > > > if its so simple, I would think it would have been noticed before. > > > >Where have I heard that stupid comment, before? > > I could very well be wrong. B ut, with something so simple having been done > many times in the past by moving equipment, I would think it would have > been noticed. As to stupid, well, the manner in which you post things and > how you say them does leave something to be desired at times. > > > > Ok, thats a start. Now...what makes this, how does it make it, > > > >Ask Mother Nature. > > This is a non answer. I will phrase my question simply: Where do you get > the idea that there is some "magneto gravity" force causing your > instruments to act funny when moved? Where do you derive the idea of such a > thing from? Is this perfectly clear now? > > > > > and how do > > > we know it is there? > > > >Drop a mass of a few kilograms on your foot from waist height. > > This is weight caused by gravity, not magnetogravity! If you mean "gravity" > say "gravity" not "magnetogravity". I am asking you about the supposed > magnetogravitational field, where it comes from and why it does what you > think it does. Will you or will you not answer this? If not, then kindly > stop posting about it. Its a waste of bandwidth and time if you won't > explain things. > > > > >Quote some references and experiments please. > > > >Try Newton and Cavendish for starters, or review your > >5th grade general science texts. > > Oh please. They don't say a f***ing thing about magnetogravity! They speak > of GRAVITATION. Not the other. For God's sake stop dodging the issue. > > >You gotta walk before you run. > > You must also look before you take those first few steps. > > >Others that have more brains than you or I, and better equipment can do > >this. That is > >why I posted it. > > My brains are fine, thank you. Someone with more brains than us...I can > think of someone. If I recall correctly, his name is "John Herman > Schnurer". He's also more restrained and has much less of a temper than I > do. We would do well to listen to what he has to say. > > > >But perhaps you have all the answers and are holding out on us? :-) > > Whatever. I know I don't have the answers. If I did, would I have asked you > to explain what in the hell a magnetogravity field was, and why you get the > idea it is causing your resistors to act funny? Why don't you just answer > the questions, and then we can work on the problem. Ok? > > --Kyle R. Mcallister > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 06:46:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13569; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 06:43:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 06:43:53 -0700 From: Hypercom59 aol.com Message-ID: <106.65e24cd.28e87b9d aol.com> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:43:57 EDT Subject: Magnetism News from Hamburg university To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Resent-Message-ID: <"PTWsq1.0.xJ3.P6ojx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: New evidence that the magnetic domain might be only one atom wide. http://www.stp-gateway.de/News/news386e.html Could this mean that "something within the Atom" is responsible for magnetism? Seems like someone in Germany has understood parts of my Magnetic Vortex Theory. Chris http://members.aol.com/jet22x/vortex.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 06:49:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA14918; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 06:48:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 06:48:44 -0700 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:56:51 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: screwey math on forces Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"p4jzW3.0.xe3.yAojx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear John et al: If you read my letter, I state that the charge on that capacitor is 1/10 of a Coulomb. Now you will realize, that if you have two charges of 1 Coulomb, one meter apart, same polarity, they would repel each other with a force of one million tons. huh? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 07:52:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA32123; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 07:51:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 07:51:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3BB75022.7855 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:02:26 -0700 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Dear members of the Vortex forum: References: <01092822155400.01741@tyrannosaur> <4.2.0.58.20010929213439.00a64300@pop.mail.yahoo.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"g1E6r2.0.rr7.66pjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Joe Champion wrote: > > Mr. Monteverde and Ford, > > You seem to be having great fun at my expense. Well, I for one agree with you regarding possible psychic involvement, similar to the Hutchison effect. It would also explain why Scott Little has had so many negative results - he keeps trying to get an experiment to work when he is, at heart, sceptical of positive results. If you read the alchemy papers of the Ancients on www.levity.com, you see that the teachers speak of the importance of the right state of mind. Indeed, alchemy involves a transmutation of the mind itself. Another interesting thing, those referenced papers also speak of the importance of performing the reaction at the right time of day, high noon. There are also recently published papers on ESP which show an improvement in psychic performance withing two hours of noon. Regards, Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 08:01:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01637; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:00:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:00:21 -0700 Message-ID: <001201c149c1$24f2eb20$ce3dee3f User> From: "Nick Reiter" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Gravito-magnetic terminology (and field) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:04:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"s0oVH1.0.UP.5Epjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gentlemen; I fret that we are losing ourselves in semantics here. From my understanding, the force that is quite permissible within current understanding of General Relativity is the one formally called the "gravito-magnetic force", the field that would be analagous to the magnetic field around an accelerated charge carrier. This is said to be the field responsible for frame-dragging in massive rotating systems. However, it is not the classical magnetic field, and one probably wouldn't presume that it would be capable of inducing EMF in moving metals. Wallaces work , which I am now turning some very serious attention to, demonstrated what he called the kinemassic force or field. Some writers have said that this is the relativistic gravito-magnetic field, however others have pointed out that what Wallace saw was (if real) orders of magnitude more powerful than the frame dragging gravito-magnetic field around a small gyroscope, so therefore it couldn't be the same thing. TT Brown, and many others since, even on this list, have approached the electrogravity concept empirically, even though there does not seem to be modelling space for it within GR. It would seem to fit well with a quantum vacuum electro-dynamic model of gravity though. Since we know that the electrical and magnetic fields are coupled, then we could presume that there would be (within this model at least) some basis for a magnetogravity concept. (Like electrogravity) We would need to carefully think out what this interaction would look like though. Dr. Robert Forward has explored the formal gravito-magnetic force concept in his books, and in a popular paper that tells about his toroidal mass flow star-drive. NR From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 09:00:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA19867; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:00:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:00:09 -0700 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:55:16 -0700 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: New Mills' hearsay To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <002f01c149c8$4db244a0$aa69fea9 cpq> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <001601c145e0$9416d640$aa69fea9 cpq> <3BB0CACA.C3E3ADF5 ix.netcom.com> <002701c146a9$f51cb080$aa69fea9@cpq> <005901c146e3$d2339180$aa69fea9 cpq> <7775rtkhh4841fokluvuv7684k2alet4f8 4ax.com> <000f01c1476a$6019e5e0$aa69fea9 cpq> <000b01c14830$f71a2380$aa69fea9 cpq> Resent-Message-ID: <"pxwaA3.0.Ls4.96qjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: "Robin van Spaandonk" > If rest mass is tied to the electrostatic potential field, then > increasing cancellation of the nuclear Coulomb field by that of the > electron as the electron shrinks results in a loss of mass of both the > nucleus and the electron, Yes, up to a point. My problem with Mills is that he wants to assume quantum steps going down, down, way down, but he can only document a few. In fact some of the higher ones should be very easy to document as the instrumentation that we have for x-rays and gamma spectroscopy is far better than that for EUV and has been around for decades rather than months. His silence on this - i.e.showing evidence of higher energy photons to support the conclusions of higher level shrinkage, is deafening. It should be far easier to demonstrate than the very demanding EUV spectroscopy that he has already performed. BTW, I like the mental image which derives from your verbalization a lot. It is brings to mind the cosmological image of the vortex surrounding a quasar, where material is drawn in centripetally at the circumference and accelerated out from the polar ends. This image would also explain why, of all the elements in the periodic table, the proposed mechanism could only work with hydrogen with its single electron. Where I differ is - that it may only operate for one step or at most a few steps down. To clarify: what I am saying that is far different from what you are saying is that I don't see any evidence of quantum steps down below the first few AND this is exactly where the evidence should be the easiest to procure, if it were there. > resulting in energy being liberated equal to > the combined mass loss x c^2 minus the relativistic mass increase of the > electron as it speeds up in its smaller orbit. All of which can be found > neatly worked out on my web page. Yes, let me congratulate you on getting this MathCad work together. I wish you could add some more verbaliztion to it, so that it would be able to explain your conclusions a little more thoroughly to a wider audience. > >This assumes that quarks are > >either divisible (subquarks) or that quarks themselves can shrink or most > >likely that there is something else normally held in or near the nucleus by > >charge, > Now you are getting close. The one thing that almost no one sees is that > mass is an external property of particles, not an internal property. Many people see it - but it is usually expressed differently. This could be a spot where your verablization needs some polishing up. I would say in general terms when one is describing the dual nature of matter, it is the usual practice when groping with something complex like "wave / particle duality" to assume that implication of the word "particle" is mass (a priori) and that its congugate, the EM "wave" would seem to be what you are calling the "internal property." > By this I mean that the mass of a particle resides in its potential field, > which by definition resides outside the particle. This makes perfect > sense, when you consider that mass is that property of particles which > relates to their interactions with their environment (i.e. mass is > measured either by means of gravity or inertia, both of which pertain to > the environment of a particle). Got no problem with this, other than semantics, but I'll snip the anti-gravity and checker theory stuff with which I have big problems. > >At some stage of shrinkage (it could be as > >high as n=2 and certainly is higher than about n=5 since we don't see > >gammas) the process becomes auto-catalytic and full collapse cannot be > >halted, kind of like that awful image on TV of late which we are constantly > >forced to watch. > Other than disproportionation, I have seen nothing to indicate that the > process can be "auto-catalytic". However if Mills is correct about > n=1/16 being the most tightly bound level of hydrinohydride, then > everything beyond that is less tightly bound, How could he really know? He gives us no evidence of photons higher than about n=3 (or 1/3) and even the 3 level is weak, plus - in fact in earlier work doesn't Mills also say that shrinkage is auto-catalytic beyond a certain level? It is easy to fall into a trap, when a genius like Mills has a very encompassing theory, and he is able to prove part of it to your satisfaction. The trap being: the part that he has proven doesn't always indicate that he got the whole thing right. And you can't fall back on QM assumptions here, because real QM, as opossed to CQM , doesn't buy into any shrinkage, even one step of shrinkage. > and if a sufficiently > strong oxidising ion is present in the plasma to remove the electron > from H-[n=1/16], then it will also remove the electron from all the > successive levels, Look at this! how strong that would that oxidizing ion have to be! Where would you find such an ion in a cold plasma? > ensuring that Hy shrinks past n=1/25 and can no > longer retain a second electron at all. In which case it is doomed to > remain as a hydrino, and is continually exposed to shrinkage by catalyst > until it hits the minimum size (n=1/137 according to Mills, n~=1/124 > according to me). As I have stated above, Mills goves us no evidence for photons of anything near this level, so he could be totally wrong. > Whether or not it undergoes fusion before then depends on whether Mills > is correct, or I am. If Mills is correct, then at n=1/137, it has a > radius of ao/137 ~ 386 fm, while if I am correct at n=1/124 it has a > radius of ao/(124^2) ~ 3.4 fm. Even if this level of shrinkage happens, which I will repeat is highly unlikely from the evidence presented so far, you seem to be indicating that radius is the only thing that is important and you seem to be ignoring charge. With the Muon, charge works in favor of fusion so the comparison is not valid. Are you saying that charge is not somehow conserved? > Yet, this scenario [Chubb hypothesis] is only a slight adaption of the Mössbauer effect (which is quite real). NOT EVEN CLOSE. I should repeat that our technical understanding of energy transport is far more mature than our understanding of nuclear dynamics and this phonon quenching scenario makes all the other far-out subquark speculation look as solid as well...the second law {;=) > At ICCF8, in their paper "The Emergence of a Coherent Explanation for Anomalies Observed in D/Pd and H/Pd Systems", McKubre,Tanzella,Tripodi, and Hagelstein report 104+-10% of the energy expected from D + D->He4. I think if you reread this article you will see that it is chock full of unsupported generalization, and that few if any actual experiments can show such a good correlation. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 10:52:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA27260; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:51:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:51:09 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Standing Bear To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: screwey math on forces Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:01:45 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01093014014501.06216 tyrannosaur> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA27224 Resent-Message-ID: <"DBCYo2.0.nf6.Ckrjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sunday 30 September 2001 06:56, John Schnurer wrote: > Dear John et al: > If you read my letter, I state that the charge on > that capacitor is 1/10 of a Coulomb. > Now you will realize, that if you have two > charges of 1 Coulomb, one meter apart, same > polarity, they would repel each other with a > force of one million tons. > > > > > huh? > > > now if they could be made to expand space in one direction and contract it in the other......... Standing Bear From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 13:13:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13769; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:10:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:10:17 -0700 Message-ID: <002b01c149e3$06ed3fa0$6f8f85ce computer> Reply-To: "Frederick Sparber" From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "Colin Quinney" , "Francis J. Stenger" Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:05:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"2pgUg2.0.2N3.fmtjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My Thanks to those who sent comments privately to avoid the flak. :-) I find that either of the two Digital VOMs that I have, will show up to a millivolt by moving the resistor clipped between the rigid portion of the meter test leads in a vertical position with the 1/4 watt resistor (about 1.5" long with leads) between them in a horizontal position and moved to-and-fro as rapidly as one can muster manually. This tends to rule out the Geomagnetic Field and the ~ 100 volt/meter Fair Weather Field. Again checking with a strong bar magnet shows null effect. By all that is holy, a conductor moving in a manner that cuts the lines of a "Field" concurrently generating a voltage: V = v x l x B implies that this field is Magnetic, and based on this experiment, the "Lines" of this Field are Vertical, as one would expect from a Gravitational (Magnetogravity) Field. One could design a setup for rapidly rotating a conductor or resistors so that greater voltages could be attained. A quantify this "Artifact". :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 13:43:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23593; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:40:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:40:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3BB7830A.4237AA99 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:39:38 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Charles Ford Subject: Re: JCF-3 PDF Abstract readability References: <4.2.0.58.20010929215114.00a60100 pop.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sa7BU2.0.Um5.nCujx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: September 30, 2001 Charles Ford wrote: >As you are probably already aware automated translations are poor at best. Syntax and formatting is different between our >two languages. Add to that, that Japanese technical terms cobbled in Japan essentially needs a dictionary to explain what it means to the Japanese scientists themselves adds to the complexity of translating. Plus the language itself does not lend itself to be exact only compound the work. Jed Rothwell can Probably say something about this in his translating work. >Having worked with many Asian engineers in my field I find your English to be quite good and understandable. It may be >that I am accustomed to poor translations. :-) It does help to have been born, raised, educated, and served in my U.S.A.. It does wonders. : ) >In this case I believe it would be beneficial that we work together to >assist those who are not able to understand portions of the translated >text. We can Work together on concepts to make better translations. I do not mind helping. However, in the JCF-3 abstracts the authors, for the most part, have listed their e-mail addresses at the end of the collection. I think contacting the authors about their English language papers will be doing them and everybody a great favor in honing their English proficiency and international communication skills and overall confidence. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 14:41:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15846; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:40:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:40:29 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetism News from Hamburg university Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 07:40:37 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2v3frtc9qpnv1alb3mb4ucn5mvsr4ah5ts 4ax.com> References: <106.65e24cd.28e87b9d aol.com> In-Reply-To: <106.65e24cd.28e87b9d aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA15825 Resent-Message-ID: <"x50F02.0.Wt3.D5vjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Hypercom59 aol.com's message of Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:43:57 EDT: >New evidence that the magnetic domain might be only one atom wide. The article effectively says it might be possible to create domains that are only one atom wide (which is desirable from the point of view of information density). Currently they are usually much wider. > >http://www.stp-gateway.de/News/news386e.html >Could this mean that "something within the Atom" is responsible for magnetism? Bingo Chris, it's called "an electron". > >Seems like someone in Germany has understood parts of my Magnetic Vortex >Theory. No Chris, read the item you quote again. It doesn't say anything about nuclei. >Chris >http://members.aol.com/jet22x/vortex.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 17:14:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09204; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:12:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:12:59 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3BB75022.7855 bellsouth.net> References: <01092822155400.01741 tyrannosaur> <4.2.0.58.20010929213439.00a64300 pop.mail.yahoo.com> <3BB75022.7855@bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:13:24 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Dear members of the Vortex forum: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"noMyh.0.jF2.AKxjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry - >Well, I for one agree with you regarding possible psychic involvement, >similar to the Hutchison effect. >If you read the alchemy papers of the Ancients on www.levity.com, you >see that the teachers speak of the importance of the right state of >mind. Ok, I was having a little levity there myself, but I don't dispute this idea at all. Don't necessarily agree with it fully either, until I've seen some real instances of it myself (since it's not reproducible, that's the only way to get the picture here. Usual replication and publication methods won't work.) Of couse to be able to learn to train our minds for this sort of thing, we're going to need some proper instruction. Maybe this will help: http://harrypotter.warnerbros.com/web/hogwarts/index.jsp Sorry, can't stop myself. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 17:39:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA18289; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:35:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:35:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3BB7D911.3FFE bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:46:41 -0700 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Dear members of the Vortex forum: References: <01092822155400.01741 tyrannosaur> <4.2.0.58.20010929213439.00a64300 pop.mail.yahoo.com> <3BB75022.7855@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OHUMr3.0.gT4.afxjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > Sorry, can't stop myself. Climb the peak, my son. Seek the bud of the odd-leafed plant that its smoke may mingle with thy soul. Find redemption. Aummmmmmmm. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 18:26:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA06063; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 18:25:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 18:25:08 -0700 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 21:33:02 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Terry Blanton cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Dear members of the Vortex forum: In-Reply-To: <3BB7D911.3FFE bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6pUdJ.0.aU1.pNyjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: According to electronic sources the bud is in a cylindrical light alkali metal container under pressure .... On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Terry Blanton wrote: > Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > Sorry, can't stop myself. > > Climb the peak, my son. Seek the bud of the odd-leafed plant that its > smoke may mingle with thy soul. Find redemption. > > Aummmmmmmm. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 19:00:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA17906; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 18:59:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 18:59:02 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" , "Frederick Sparber" Subject: RE: Magnetogravity Generator Design Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:07:44 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <002b01c149e3$06ed3fa0$6f8f85ce computer> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"xQhrV2.0.iN4.ctyjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All. Kyle, relax. The experiment is so simple, why not just do it? I did, just now, used a 500 ohm and a 10 kohm resistor in my BK 391 true RMS meter, with about 2 foot of lead-wire and also a piece of zip cord. All experiment proved null, on both ac and dc 200mv setting. That's zero for two Fred. It saddens me to say so, but it's true. Perhaps you have an intermittent connection? I got a healthy 10mv when one cable came out with some vigorous spinning. K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:06 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: Colin Quinney; Francis J. Stenger Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design My Thanks to those who sent comments privately to avoid the flak. :-) I find that either of the two Digital VOMs that I have, will show up to a millivolt by moving the resistor clipped between the rigid portion of the meter test leads in a vertical position with the 1/4 watt resistor (about 1.5" long with leads) between them in a horizontal position and moved to-and-fro as rapidly as one can muster manually. This tends to rule out the Geomagnetic Field and the ~ 100 volt/meter Fair Weather Field. Again checking with a strong bar magnet shows null effect. By all that is holy, a conductor moving in a manner that cuts the lines of a "Field" concurrently generating a voltage: V = v x l x B implies that this field is Magnetic, and based on this experiment, the "Lines" of this Field are Vertical, as one would expect from a Gravitational (Magnetogravity) Field. One could design a setup for rapidly rotating a conductor or resistors so that greater voltages could be attained. A quantify this "Artifact". :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 19:01:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA18542; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:00:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:00:57 -0700 From: Hypercom59 aol.com Message-ID: <9b.1bb8f51e.28e9287b aol.com> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:01:31 EDT Subject: Re: Magnetism News from Hamburg university To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Resent-Message-ID: <"gKRSg.0.eX4.Ovyjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 9/30/01 4:42:00 PM Central Daylight Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes: >The article effectively says it might be possible to create domains that >are only one atom wide (which is desirable from the point of view of >information density). Currently they are usually much wider. Wrong Robin, the exact quote is "Physicists have now established that in some materials this boundary is only a single atom in width." Forget about the wider domains they speak of, which is not correct anyway. A one atom width domain clearly indicates something much smaller that the outdated "Domain Theory." > Bingo Chris, it's called "an electron." I still have your old emails where you insisted my idea of the electrons being responsible for magnetic energy - WAS WRONG. Thank you for now agreeing that I was correct the "First Time." Someone had to solve the problem of magnetics, So I did. Best Regards, Chris http://members.aol.com/jet22x/vortex.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 19:22:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA28347; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:22:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:22:19 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Magnetism News from Hamburg university Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:31:00 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <9b.1bb8f51e.28e9287b aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"7l4X-1.0.pw6.QDzjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, it's generally understood to be due to the electron spin, at least in a ferromagnet like iron. This is proven by noting that the gyromagnetic ratio is close to 2 than 1, check out a good QM book for a more detailed answer. What's so odd about 1 atom wide domain wall. It would be one atom with it's magnetization vector 90 degrees with respect to adjacent atoms. Considering the geometry, a one atom wide domain is the natural result. What is the "problem of magnetics"???? K. -----Original Message----- From: Hypercom59 aol.com [mailto:Hypercom59@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:02 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetism News from Hamburg university In a message dated 9/30/01 4:42:00 PM Central Daylight Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes: >The article effectively says it might be possible to create domains that >are only one atom wide (which is desirable from the point of view of >information density). Currently they are usually much wider. Wrong Robin, the exact quote is "Physicists have now established that in some materials this boundary is only a single atom in width." Forget about the wider domains they speak of, which is not correct anyway. A one atom width domain clearly indicates something much smaller that the outdated "Domain Theory." > Bingo Chris, it's called "an electron." I still have your old emails where you insisted my idea of the electrons being responsible for magnetic energy - WAS WRONG. Thank you for now agreeing that I was correct the "First Time." Someone had to solve the problem of magnetics, So I did. Best Regards, Chris http://members.aol.com/jet22x/vortex.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 19:23:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA28669; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:23:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:23:10 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Magnetism News from Hamburg university Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:23:17 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <9b.1bb8f51e.28e9287b aol.com> In-Reply-To: <9b.1bb8f51e.28e9287b aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA28642 Resent-Message-ID: <"fFooB.0.p_6.DEzjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Hypercom59 aol.com's message of Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:01:31 EDT: >In a message dated 9/30/01 4:42:00 PM Central Daylight Time, >rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes: > >>The article effectively says it might be possible to create domains that >>are only one atom wide (which is desirable from the point of view of >>information density). Currently they are usually much wider. > >Wrong Robin, the exact quote is "Physicists have now established that in some >materials this boundary is only a single atom in width." Forget about the ^^^^^^^^ That is the *boundary* *between* domains. >wider domains they speak of, which is not correct anyway. I'm afraid it is, otherwise your cassette recorder wouldn't work. >A one atom width >domain clearly indicates something much smaller that the outdated "Domain >Theory." No, it indicates the lower bound on possibility for the domain theory. > > >> Bingo Chris, it's called "an electron." > >I still have your old emails where you insisted my idea of the electrons >being responsible for magnetic energy - WAS WRONG. You have in the past clearly stated that it was the nuclei of the atoms that were responsible for the magnetic field. That is wrong. > Thank you for now >agreeing that I was correct the "First Time." You weren't (however I was not 100% correct either). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 19:29:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA30176; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:26:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:26:32 -0700 Message-ID: <008e01c14a20$699eaca0$0200a8c0 mshome.net> From: "Joe Thomas" To: References: <01092822155400.01741@tyrannosaur> <4.2.0.58.20010929213439.00a64300@pop.mail.yahoo.com > <3BB75022.7855@bellsouth.net> <3BB7D911.3FFE@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Dear members of the Vortex forum: Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:26:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Resent-Message-ID: <"HrTsv.0.PN7.OHzjx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hmmmm..... sounds to me like someone's mind has already gone up in smoke. It is unfortunate that so much effort is expended among the members of this group to create dispersion and ridicule from within. Is there not enough doubt and distrust in the world already about the very concepts this forum is supposed to discuss? The operative word here, is "discuss". I am dismayed at the waste of intellect that is displayed at times in the eagerness of some to only offer negative criticism. If we ALL had the answers to the questions and mysteries of Cold Fusion, Free Energy, or whatever, would we even be here? There are some of us that have a genuine search for knowledge, and are not armed with total awareness that take solace in the bits of information that is shared here. That is the positive energy and effort. The senseless taunting and ridicule that spews from the keyboards of some, makes a bitter experience for those who must wade through such posts to find the worthy posts that yield inspiration or lead to answers. Perhaps, soon, the lunacy of frivolous postings will give way to the more desirable and serious postings suitable for this forum. Joe Thomas View the NEW Reality! See it at http://www.transmutation.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Blanton" To: Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 07:46 PM Subject: Re: Dear members of the Vortex forum: > Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > Sorry, can't stop myself. > > Climb the peak, my son. Seek the bud of the odd-leafed plant that its > smoke may mingle with thy soul. Find redemption. > > Aummmmmmmm. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 21:06:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA00363; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 21:03:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 21:03:17 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010930215922.00a7d320 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 23:11:25 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Dear members of the Vortex forum: In-Reply-To: References: <01092822155400.01741 tyrannosaur> <4.2.0.58.20010929213439.00a64300 pop.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Kcu4L1.0.S5.3i-jx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mr Champion: Some advice... As one who has been on public forums and ventured the courage to post my opinions I can tell you that it is quite common to be made fun of. Yes it can be offensive. Yes it is the nature of the lime light. Get over it Particularly because your post was sort of asking for it. You opened with an off handed arrogant slap in the face to about half the commonly posting members of the list. But most particularly because the opinions you are supporting are way outside the box. I am not prone to be trapped in the box myself and as a result I periodically find myself the target of ridicule. I try not to be offended. Concerning the mater of credential flashing. Be aware that credentials do not competence make. If you are interested I can list dozens of credentialed idiots Along side dozens of competent folks who have no credentials. Flashing them is just the lazy way out of actually defending your position. Concerning my being the target of your anger. I probably deserve it as I was a bit insensitive. But you might look back and notice the none of my posts contain any of the single syllable four lettered and always offensive lyrics that you have lowered yourself to "Flashing" on a public fourem. I am sure the good professor would prefer that you avoid the drill instructors vocabulary when defending him. At 12:02 AM 9/30/01 -0700, you wrote: >Mr. Monteverde and Ford, > >You seem to be having great fun at my expense. Enjoy while you are >able. So that there are no questions, I truly do not give a _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 21:25:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA07808; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 21:22:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 21:22:24 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010930232831.00a4b180 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 23:30:41 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: JCF-3 PDF Abstract readability In-Reply-To: <3BB7830A.4237AA99 ix.netcom.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20010929215114.00a60100 pop.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2mzXt2.0.wv1._z-jx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:39 PM 9/30/01 -0700, you wrote: >I do not mind helping. However, in the JCF-3 abstracts the authors, for >the >most part, have listed their e-mail addresses at the end of the >collection. I >think contacting the authors about their English language papers will be >doing >them and everybody a great favor in honing their English proficiency and >international communication skills and overall confidence. > >-AK- Akira: Good point. Much better for the whole world in the long term. Cheers _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 21:49:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA18982; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 21:49:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 21:49:29 -0700 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010930235442.00a668d0 pop.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 23:57:45 -0500 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Lost contact for Dr Faile Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.20010930233710.00a6b6e0 pop.mail.yahoo.com> <4.2.0.58.20010930205415.00a488a0 pop.mail.yahoo.com> <4.2.0.58.20010930205415.00a488a0 pop.mail.yahoo.com> <4.2.0.58.20010930233710.00a6b6e0 pop.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_tSL_3.0.Le4.ON_jx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:39 PM 10/1/01 +1000, you wrote: >In reply to Charles Ford's message of Sun, 30 Sep 2001 23:39:53 -0500: > > >Waoh... Then who was that masked man? The envelope and letter is long > >since gone. > > > >Lets see??? I think it came from Ohio...??? maybe?? > >Nick Reiter maybe? > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Sounds right.... Nick you on this list? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 22:19:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA29329; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:18:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:18:41 -0700 From: Hypercom59 aol.com Message-ID: <84.1c3c020e.28e956d3 aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 01:19:15 EDT Subject: Re: Dear members of the Vortex forum: To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Resent-Message-ID: <"wqMwW.0.BA7.mo_jx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 9/30/01 11:07:46 PM Central Daylight Time, cjford1 yahoo.com writes: >"nature of the lime light" Charles - you sure are full of something boy. Joe, I would rather make diamonds in the microwave than suffer through another post like that dissertation issued from Ford on this "Fourem." Charles, please don't bother telling us what a fourem is - you have done enough damage to the language for one day. Mr. Champion - I enjoyed your original post, completely. Best Regards, Chris From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 22:24:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA31462; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:24:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:24:11 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <008e01c14a20$699eaca0$0200a8c0 mshome.net> References: <01092822155400.01741 tyrannosaur> <4.2.0.58.20010929213439.00a64300 pop.mail.yahoo.com> <3BB75022.7855@bellsouth.net> <3BB7D911.3FFE@bellsouth.net> <008e01c14a20$699eaca0$0200a8c0 mshome.net> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:24:39 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Dear members of the Vortex forum: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"AaG6L2.0.Rh7.xt_jx" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/44778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Oops" - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI