From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  1 00:05:10 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Magnetogravity Generator Design ...10 ohm VS 100 k ohm
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	Fred,

	Have you shielded it?

	Have you wandered around.... like outside away from then near to
power lines?


	CRT gives great results.... the nearer the better.

	
	If you find a 100 k ohm works better than a 10 ohm then we would
like to know..... please


y

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Keith Nagel wrote:

> Hi All.
> 
> Kyle, relax. The experiment is so simple, why not just do
> it? I did, just now, used a 500 ohm and a 10 kohm
> resistor in my BK 391 true RMS meter, with about 2
> foot of lead-wire and also a piece of zip cord.
> 
> All experiment proved null, on both ac and dc 200mv setting.
> 
> That's zero for two Fred. It saddens me to say so, but
> it's true.
> 
> Perhaps you have an intermittent connection? I got a healthy
> 10mv when one cable came out with some vigorous spinning.
> 
> K.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:06 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: Colin Quinney; Francis J. Stenger
> Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design
> 
> 
> My Thanks to those who sent comments privately to avoid the flak.   :-)
> 
> I find that either of the two Digital VOMs that I have, will show up to a
> millivolt by
> moving the resistor clipped between the rigid portion of the meter test
> leads in a
> vertical position with the 1/4 watt resistor (about 1.5" long with leads)
> between them
> in a horizontal position and moved to-and-fro as rapidly as one can muster
> manually.
> 
> This tends to rule out the Geomagnetic Field and the ~ 100 volt/meter Fair
> Weather
> Field.
> Again checking with a strong bar magnet shows null effect.
> 
> By all that is holy, a conductor moving in a manner that cuts the lines of a
> "Field"
> concurrently generating a voltage:
> V =  v x l x B
> implies that this field is Magnetic, and based on this experiment, the
> "Lines" of this
> Field are Vertical, as one would expect from a Gravitational
> (Magnetogravity) Field.
> 
> One could design a setup for rapidly rotating a conductor or resistors so
> that greater
> voltages could be attained.
> 
> A quantify this "Artifact".  :-)
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  1 00:12:13 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Hypercom59 aol.com
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	Why is domain theory outdated...?

	What is in its place?  Please.



On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/30/01 4:42:00 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:
> 
> >The article effectively says it might be possible to create domains that
> >are only one atom wide (which is desirable from the point of view of
> >information density).  Currently they are usually much wider.
> 
> Wrong Robin, the exact quote is "Physicists have now established that in some 
> materials this boundary is only a single atom in width."  Forget about the 
> wider domains they speak of, which is not correct anyway.  A one atom width 
> domain clearly indicates something much smaller that the outdated "Domain 
> Theory."
> 
> 
> > Bingo Chris, it's called "an electron." 
> 
> I still have your old emails where you insisted my idea of the electrons 
> being responsible for magnetic energy - WAS WRONG.  Thank you for now 
> agreeing that I was correct the "First Time."
> 
> Someone had to solve the problem of magnetics, So I did.


	What was the problem with magnetics?
	What is the solution?


> 
> Best Regards,
> Chris
> http://members.aol.com/jet22x/vortex.html
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  1 03:40:18 2001
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Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design ...10 ohm VS 100 k ohm
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----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
Cc: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 2:12 AM
Subject: RE: Magnetogravity Generator Design ...10 ohm VS 100 k ohm

Dear John.

I haven't written a "Dear John" letter before.  :-)


>
>
> Fred,
>
> Have you shielded it?

Not yet.
>
> Have you wandered around.... like outside away from then near to
> power lines?

YES  INDEED!!
>
>
> CRT gives great results.... the nearer the better.

I agree, but it needs to have a high impedance input.
>
>
> If you find a 100 k ohm works better than a 10 ohm then we would
> like to know..... please

Yes.  If you figure the induced EMF across the conductor,a higher resistance works
better, otherwise it loads the EMF.

Also a higher acceleration (dv/dt) gives a higher EMF.

Regards,  Frederick
>
>
> y
>
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Keith Nagel wrote:
>
> > Hi All.
> >
> > Kyle, relax. The experiment is so simple, why not just do
> > it? I did, just now, used a 500 ohm and a 10 kohm
> > resistor in my BK 391 true RMS meter, with about 2
> > foot of lead-wire and also a piece of zip cord.
> >
> > All experiment proved null, on both ac and dc 200mv setting.
> >
> > That's zero for two Fred. It saddens me to say so, but
> > it's true.
> >
> > Perhaps you have an intermittent connection? I got a healthy
> > 10mv when one cable came out with some vigorous spinning.
> >
> > K.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:06 PM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Cc: Colin Quinney; Francis J. Stenger
> > Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design
> >
> >
> > My Thanks to those who sent comments privately to avoid the flak.   :-)
> >
> > I find that either of the two Digital VOMs that I have, will show up to a
> > millivolt by
> > moving the resistor clipped between the rigid portion of the meter test
> > leads in a
> > vertical position with the 1/4 watt resistor (about 1.5" long with leads)
> > between them
> > in a horizontal position and moved to-and-fro as rapidly as one can muster
> > manually.
> >
> > This tends to rule out the Geomagnetic Field and the ~ 100 volt/meter Fair
> > Weather
> > Field.
> > Again checking with a strong bar magnet shows null effect.
> >
> > By all that is holy, a conductor moving in a manner that cuts the lines of a
> > "Field"
> > concurrently generating a voltage:
> > V =  v x l x B
> > implies that this field is Magnetic, and based on this experiment, the
> > "Lines" of this
> > Field are Vertical, as one would expect from a Gravitational
> > (Magnetogravity) Field.
> >
> > One could design a setup for rapidly rotating a conductor or resistors so
> > that greater
> > voltages could be attained.
> >
> > A quantify this "Artifact".  :-)
> >
> > Regards,   Frederick
> >
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  1 03:51:59 2001
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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il.yahoo.com> <4.2.0.58.20010930235442.00a668d0 pop.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Lost contact for Dr Faile
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 06:55:10 -0400
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Hi, Charlie;

Oh, yeah, I am still here.  My postings don't seem to draw much attention
sometimes, since I steer clear of the whole CF field (except for when there
is some clear cut crossover into matters of gravity)

Sam Faile's contact info is:

Dr. Sam P. Faile
4002 Sharon Park Lane #13
Cincinnati, Ohio 45241
(513) 563-4953 (evenings)


Thanks;

NR


----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
To: <freenrg-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 12:57 AM
Subject: Lost contact for Dr Faile


> At 02:39 PM 10/1/01 +1000, you wrote:
> >In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Sun, 30 Sep 2001 23:39:53 -0500:
> >
> > >Waoh...  Then who was that masked man?  The envelope and letter is long
> > >since gone.
> > >
> > >Lets see???  I think it came from Ohio...???  maybe??
> >
> >Nick Reiter maybe?
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Robin van Spaandonk
>
> Sounds right....
>
> Nick you on this list?
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  1 07:04:26 2001
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> To: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 7:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Design

This was a private message.
>
>
> > Frederick,
> >
> > This "Vertical Field" you refer to below reminds me of a simple experiment my
oldest
> son
> > performed many years ago and after he brought to my attention, I remained puzzled
as
> to
> > the cause of the effect we viewed, and still do to this day. The experiment
> consisted of a
> > sagging length of fine copper wire (36 guage or so) horizontally suspended between
> two
> > insulators at a distance of 2' or so. Applying a DC voltage to each end of this
wire
> will
> > now produce a corresponding deflection of the wire that appears to be proportional
> to the
> > current. Reversing the polarity reverses the deflection. My first thot was this
was
> a
> > reaction to the earth's magnetic field, but if the test apparatus was rotated to
> differing
> > positions in relation the N-S poles of the earth, the deflection remained the same
> in
> > direction and magnitude.
> >
> > OK, so this deflection must simply be a result of torque from the magnetic field
> > surrounding the wire due to the current flow.  However, if the test apparatus is
> > positioned vertically, no visible deflection or rotation is seen with application
of
> > voltage and current! BTW, one may attach very lightweight pieces of tissue to the
> wire to
> > allow easy viewing of the rotation or lack thereof in the vertical position. The
> > horizontal deflection is quite obvious. We ran many variations of this setup
> including
> > horizontal and vertical  "U's", suspended coils, etc.
> >
> > My only conclusion at the time was that this was a  reaction to some "Vertical
> Field", and
> > therefore I find your simple tests most interesting!
> >
> > I have since seen this same type of test having been performed by others, but I
> don't
> > recall exactly who or where at the moment.
> >
> >
> > Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> > > My Thanks to those who sent comments privately to avoid the flak.   :-)
> > >
> > > I find that either of the two Digital VOMs that I have, will show up to a
> millivolt by
> > > moving the resistor clipped between the rigid portion of the meter test leads in
a
> > > vertical position with the 1/4 watt resistor (about 1.5" long with leads)
between
> them
> > > in a horizontal position and moved to-and-fro as rapidly as one can muster
> manually.
> > >
> > > This tends to rule out the Geomagnetic Field and the ~ 100 volt/meter Fair
Weather
> > > Field.
> > > Again checking with a strong bar magnet shows null effect.
> > >
> > > By all that is holy, a conductor moving in a manner that cuts the lines of a
> "Field"
> > > concurrently generating a voltage:
> > > V =  v x l x B
> > > implies that this field is Magnetic, and based on this experiment, the "Lines"
of
> this
> > > Field are Vertical, as one would expect from a Gravitational (Magnetogravity)
> Field.
> > >
> > > One could design a setup for rapidly rotating a conductor or resistors so that
> greater
> > > voltages could be attained.
> > >
> > > A quantify this "Artifact".  :-)
> > >
> > > Regards,   Frederick
> >


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  1 07:51:32 2001
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Subject: Re: Magnetism News from Hamburg university
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On Monday 01 October 2001 00:14, John Schnurer wrote:
> Why is domain theory outdated...?
> 
> 	What is in its place?  Please.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:
> 
> > In a message dated 9/30/01 4:42:00 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> > rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:
> > 
> > >The article effectively says it might be possible to create 
domains that
> > >are only one atom wide (which is desirable from the point 
of view of
> > >information density).  Currently they are usually much 
wider.
> > 
> > Wrong Robin, the exact quote is "Physicists have now 
established that in some 
> > materials this boundary is only a single atom in width."  
Forget about the 
> > wider domains they speak of, which is not correct anyway.  A 
one atom width 
> > domain clearly indicates something much smaller that the 
outdated "Domain 
> > Theory."
> > 
> > 
> > > Bingo Chris, it's called "an electron." 
> > 
> > I still have your old emails where you insisted my idea of 
the electrons 
> > being responsible for magnetic energy - WAS WRONG.  Thank 
you for now 
> > agreeing that I was correct the "First Time."
> > 
> > Someone had to solve the problem of magnetics, So I did.
> 
> 
> 	What was the problem with magnetics?
> 	What is the solution?
> 
> 
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> > Chris
> > http://members.aol.com/jet22x/vortex.html
> > 
> 
> 
> 
What about the proton or some other particle than 
the electron?
 
Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  1 10:47:17 2001
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Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 10:41:40 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Flash from the past - ZPE pumping?
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Does Dr. Puthoff ever tune into to Vortex? It would be interesting to get
his comments on the following.

During the early years of CF, it was much more common to hear ZPE, zero
point energy, offered as an explanation for the putative excess energy that
is sometimes found in the many varieties of LENR.

This may be one reason that CF, in the early days, received even more
derision and bad press than it currently gets. It wasn't just that the
results were hard to replicate, but even more of a problem was that no
recognizable pathway could be found for any results, in the eyes of
traditionalists. Scientists are sometimes more tolerant of the well-known
experimental difficulties of replication - when and if they can buy into an
underlying rationale that makes sense, and ZPE didn't fill that need, in
their estimation.

One hardly ever hears of the ZPE methodology being offered anymore. Instead,
CF experimenters keep futilely trying to shoehorn their results into some
variation of traditional physics and the well known nuclear fusion
reactions. But this is really tough because there has always been an easy
and fool-proof way to provide hard evidence of nuclear reactions - high
energy photons - and these don't show up to the extent necessary in LENR,
with two exceptions, the tritium work of Claytor and the EUV found in Mills'
hydrino experiments. Instead some helium turns up in CF which, it is said
could be nuclear ash - but which unfortunately can also be explained away by
skeptics as contamination.

Perhaps some of the reluctance to mention ZPE any more is because of the
regrettable associations of the past - so that even as the experimenters
became more confident that they were actually getting clear excess
energy-and also were making some progress towards repeatability, they did
not want to have some pundit tag on the previous negative associations of
ZPE, so that at least their work would stand on its own, so they dropped ZPE
like a hot potato (or is that potatoe, now that we have a Republican
administration).

Dr. Hal Puthoff, of the Institute for Advanced Studies and EarthTech, was
and presumably still is, the main proponent of ZPE, but his name doesn't
turn up in current research very often any more. Too bad. Over a decade ago,
he noted  how  many  of  this century's new technologies depend on the
Alice-in-Wonderland  physics of quantum mechanics, with all of its seeming
absurdities. And he was not reluctant at the time to proffer a theory with
even more absurdities - or did it?

Maybe its time to have a second look at ZPE, especially in the form of ZPE
"pumping," in which a methodology emerges that some physical phenomena in
three dimensions is capable of bridging the gap into a higher spatial
dimension to tap into an energy pool that may exist primarily in that
dimension.

One such candidate mechanism for ZPE pumping (hold on to your hats) may be
the Mills hydrino. If today's speculation proves accurate, it would be
doubly ironic, since Mills is a both a brilliant experimenter and theorist
who absolutely wants to have NO, ZERO, NADA, taint of association with ZPE,
Puthoff or anything else in CF. So he has concocted his own theory that
definitely has some validity - but also huge gaps, and moreover, can and
will be reinterpreted now to offer up the missing link the ZPE formerly
lacked - the actual pumping mechanism.

Despite Mills' wishes, it is his results, photon evidence and massive OU
(assuming that most of what he has published is true), not his supporting
theory, that can lead one to the realization that it is the hydrino that
could emerge as the long awaited for ZPE pump. How would it work? The exact
details are far from clear, but what we know is that the 27.2 eV photon
figures prominently and that nuclear ash is hard to find (sure, Mills says
he has captured hydrino hydrides and hydrino compounds, and has had them
analyzed, but other well-placed sources say this is not what he has indeed
submitted nor what he can prove). Also he has apparently run his reactor for
many hours of OU with no build up of any ash - but he has said that the
hydrino, because of its shrunken size, just disperses into nature.

All of this current speculation has recently been hatched out of an ongoing
dialogue with Robin van Spaandonk, who like myself, sees that Mills has many
of the answers but may also lack a few. So in an effort to put Mills' work
in the context of ZPE pumping, let me forward a few other possibilities for
your amusement, if not edification:
1.) There could be one or more physical components (besides quarks) of the
proton nucleus that have, not coincidentally, a mass / energy of exactly
27.2 eV. My first choice for this mystery particle is the gluon, but there
are other possibilities like the light lepton/s, or any "sub-quark" whatever
that may turn out to be.
2.) When the electron of the hydrogen atom is constrained in a matrix with a
resonant hole of spatial dimensions near to but less than 50 nm. it can
sometimes shrink one step below ground state, forcing the electrostatic
potential field closer, thus increasing cancellation of the nuclear Coulomb
field by the electron as the electron shrinks, resulting in a concurrent
loss of mass of both the nucleus and the electron, resulting in energy being
liberated equal to the combined mass loss x c^2 minus the relativistic mass
increase of the electron as it speeds up in its smaller orbit (per RvS) -
which energy, as it turns out, is of a net positive balance near the 10.6 eV
spectral line and which is clearly in evidence in a Mills' plasma (proven
radiate strongly at 10.6 eV.)
3.) Once the particular nuclear sub-particle (gluon, LL or subquark of mass
/ energy multiples of 27.2) is gone from the nucleus, then a potential
instability results between juxtaposed quarks - and this is quickly
rectified via ZPE.

Maybe, mother nature abhors three bare quarks even more so than the vacuum,
so she uses the vacuum to "virtually" restock the proton nucleus with a
gluon (subquark, etc) plus - leaving an energy hole, which is the unused
half of the virtual pair that has provided the gluon, so the whole procedure
can be self-sustaining, so long as certain constraints are available.

Get in a good laugh first, and then think about it for a little while, my
treat. That should be enough amusement for one day. More later.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  1 12:07:01 2001
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From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Digital Meter Artifact..Has anyone seen this?    MagnetoGravity
 Generator Design
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Fredrick
	You should see something with your cow magnet and A wire connected
to a resistor, depending on the orientation of the magnet. A digital meter
responds quickly, usually about 30 times a second. They have an internal
resistance about 10 Megohms or so. Try putting an analog meter across the
resistor, or use the AC scale on your digital Vm. It probably would help 
to take the cow away from the magnet too.

Hank





On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 3:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Digital Meter Artifact..Has anyone seen this? MagnetoGravity Generator
> Design
> 
> Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> 
> 
> > At 12:22 PM 9/29/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> > > > I strongly suggest you check the experiment for artifact as this
> > > > particulat one has fooled a lot of people.
> > >
> > >You do it.
> >
> > Its not his experiment, it is yours.
> 
> I was seeking replication. :-)
> 
> 
> > Perhaps you should do some further
> > artifact testing before declaring on here that you have a "gravitomagnetic
> > field detector" or whatever it is you think you have. YOU prove it.
> 
> I am doing some further artifact testing. A strong bar magnet (cow magnet in the
> kilogauss range) moved rapidly near the resistor held rigid while connected to the
> test leads of two different digital meters has no effect, which seems to rule out the
> Earth's Geomagnetic field.
> 
> A 1 inch wide x 3 inch long, PC board that has an interdigitated patteren vacuum
> coated with enough Nichrome to measure 312 ohms swings up to > 330 ohms when moved
> rapidly. This even shows up on an analog meter as a slight deflection, indicating that
> the effect is area sensitive.
> >
> > > > I would like to know how the signal you may be seeing is
> > > > determined to be from a "magneto gravitic" field?
> > >
> > >Try the force of 9.8 Newtons on a 1.0 Kg mass at the Earth's
> > >surface.  Wear safety
> > >shoes.
> >
> > That doesn't say a whole lot. What is this force, what generates it, how
> > does it interact with equipment, and in what way? Wear safety shoes? Why?
> 
> Ever drop a 1.0 kg mass on your foot from waist height, Kyle?  :-)
> > Is there thrust supposed to be produced by this gadget of yours?
> 
> Of course not, silly. I post an interesting effect with a question mark attached and
> you get bent out of shape.
> 
> > If so, and
> > if its so simple, I would think it would have been noticed before.
> 
> Where have I heard that stupid comment, before?
> >
> > > > Please, what units of measure are employed to arrive at the
> > > > conclusion there is an "enormous" field?  And what are the units of
> > > > magneto gravity measured against?  Please.
> > >
> > >Ampere-meters/kg. (0.02583 to be precise).
> > >
> > >Fg = 1.0E-7 * (0.02583)^2 * M*1kg/R^2  = 9.8 Newtons
> > >M = mass of the Earth, 5.98E24 kg
> > >R = Radius of the Earth, 6.38E6 Meters
> >
> > Ok, thats a start. Now...what makes this, how does it make it,
> 
> Ask Mother Nature.
> 
> 
> > and how do
> > we know it is there?
> 
> Drop a mass of a few kilograms on your foot from waist height.
> 
> 
> >Quote some references and experiments please.
> 
> Try Newton and Cavendish for starters, or review your
> 5th grade general science texts.
> 
> >
> > If you
> > can't do this, and this is just a mathematical idea of yours, please tell
> > us, then we will know we are dealing with a non-validated theory, and not a
> > real-world set of experiments.
> 
> You gotta walk before you run.
> 
> 
> >
> > Not meant to offend, but we didn't do the experiment. You did. Maybe you
> > should take the time to shield it, and do further testing before jumping to
> > a conclusion. It eliminates confusion and helps cast out artifacts.
> 
> Others that have more brains than you or I, and better equipment can do this. That is
> why I posted it.
> 
> You might recall that EM effects were first discovered by the accidental artifact that
> a compass needle near a wire moved when there was a current flowing through the wire.
> 
> But perhaps you have all the answers and are holding out on us?  :-)
> 
> Regards,    Frederick
> >
> > Regards,
> > --Kyle R. Mcallister
> >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  1 12:28:59 2001
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Anyone have graphs, or a reference, for the loading of titanium with
deuterium?



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  1 13:59:25 2001
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: van't Hoff numbers for deuterium loading of titanium.
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From: "Stephen Lajoie" <lajoie eskimo.com>

> Anyone have graphs, or a reference, for the loading of titanium with
> deuterium?

Check the database at:
http://gaphyor.lpgp.u-psud.fr

It is French but has an English translation. It may (usually) takes a
special request if it is not online, or they will sell you the particular
handbook.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  1 14:57:52 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnetism News from Hamburg university
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 07:57:12 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Standing Bear's message of Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:01:43 -0700:
[snip]
>What about the proton or some other particle than 
>the electron?
> 
>Standing Bear

I think the magnetic moment of the proton is smaller than that of the
electron, by a factor of the mass ratio (i.e. about 18 hundred times).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 1 Oct 2001 07:58:32
-0500:
[snip]
>> > current. Reversing the polarity reverses the deflection. My first thot was this
>was
>> a
>> > reaction to the earth's magnetic field, but if the test apparatus was rotated to
>> differing
>> > positions in relation the N-S poles of the earth, the deflection remained the same
>> in
>> > direction and magnitude.
[snip]
Depending on where you are, the Earth's field can have quite a large
vertical component. See:
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/seg/gmag/fldsnth1.pl

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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On Sunday 30 September 2001 13:39, Akira Kawasaki wrote:
> September 30, 2001
> 
> 
> Charles Ford wrote:
> 
> >As you are probably already aware automated translations are 
poor at best.
> Syntax and formatting is different between our >two languages.
> Add to that, that Japanese technical terms cobbled in Japan 
essentially
> needs a
> dictionary to explain what it means to the Japanese scientists
> themselves adds
> to the complexity of translating. Plus the language itself 
does not lend
> itself
> to be exact only compound the work. Jed Rothwell can Probably 
say
> something
> about this in his translating work.
> 
> >Having worked with many Asian engineers in my field I find 
your English to be
> quite good and understandable.  It may be >that I am 
accustomed to poor
> translations.  :-)
> It does help to have been born, raised, educated, and served 
in my
> U.S.A.. It
> does wonders. : )
> 
> >In this case I believe it would be beneficial that we work 
together to
> >assist those who are not able to understand portions of the 
translated
> >text.  We can Work together on concepts to make better 
translations.
> I do not mind helping. However, in the JCF-3 abstracts the 
authors, for
> the
> most part, have listed their e-mail addresses at the end of the
> collection. I
> think contacting the authors about their English language 
papers will be
> doing
> them and everybody a great favor in honing their English 
proficiency and
> international communication skills and overall confidence.
> 
> -AK-
> 
> 
> 
	We really ought to have just one language around
the world.  Would not need to translate.  Trouble is, which one?
I use English, however others may do just as well.  Cumbersome
ones can hamper progress.  Overdone ones and terse ones have
their own drawbacks as well.  Just wshfull thinking that a grand
unification of languages would probably lead to more of the
same

Standing Bear

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Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:48:53 -0700
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On Sunday 30 September 2001 18:33, John Schnurer wrote:
> According to electronic sources the bud is in a cylindrical 
light
> alkali metal container under pressure ....
> 
> 
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> > Rick Monteverde wrote:
> > 
> > > Sorry, can't stop myself.
> > 
> > Climb the peak, my son.  Seek the bud of the odd-leafed 
plant that its
> > smoke may mingle with thy soul.  Find redemption.
> > 
> > Aummmmmmmm.
> > 
> 
> 
Sorry to bust your bubble, but that bud in a light cylindrical
alkali metal container probably contains a golden liquid with
a soluble monocarboxylic aliphatic alcohol content of about
4 percent............better known as BUDWEISER!
Spuds MacKenzie would be proud were Anheuser-Busch not
ashamed of him.  Too bad, he was just a party pit bull and
never bit anybody though he might have snatched a
few kisses and vice versa...........oh oh!

Standing Beeeer.............hic!..........Bear

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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:42:10 EDT
Subject: Re: Magnetism News from Hamburg university
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In a message dated 10/1/01 10:28:09 AM Central Daylight Time, 
rockcast net-link.net writes:

> What about the proton or some other particle than the electron? 

Good point Standing Bear.  In my Magnetic Vortex Theory I clearly describe 2 
separate conditions for magnetic energy production.  The following two 
explanations must be looked at as an "either / or" situation.

1: Electron - Electron, whereby electrons are producing magnetic energy at 
each "pole" of the atom.  This is now being referred to as "electron flavor."

2: Electron - Proton, whereby the electrons at one pole produce magnetic 
energy and the opposite pole is ejecting energy produced by the proton.

Each magnetic pole produces the same amount of magnetic energy as the 
opposing pole, providing a natural balance.  Therefore each pole produces 
equal but opposite magnetic energy.

Robin chimes in with "I think the magnetic moment of the proton is smaller 
than that of the electron, by a factor of the mass ratio (i.e. about 18 
hundred times)."

Magnetic moment of the proton is what?  Think? How about some simple facts 
and skip the conjecture.

Should the electron/proton interaction be correct - Robins 1/1,800 proton 
energy figure is obviously wrong - as it would then require 1,800 protons to 
equal 1 electron of energy.  Robin must be confused, (however I personally 
feel his figure is off in any case) - unless he is aware of a magnetic 
element where the protons outnumber electrons by 1,800/1 - it must be very 
heavy and extremely radioactive - and over 6 times heaver than uranium..

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On Monday 01 October 2001 14:57, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> In reply to  Standing Bear's message of Mon, 1 Oct 2001 
11:01:43 -0700:
> [snip]
> >What about the proton or some other particle than 
> >the electron?
> > 
> >Standing Bear
> 
> I think the magnetic moment of the proton is smaller than that 
of the
> electron, by a factor of the mass ratio (i.e. about 18 hundred 
times).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> 
> 
> 
according to some, if my memory serves me, the proton
has been 'measured' to be 1837 times the 'mass' of the
electron.  However, due to some recent posts about the
nature of 'mass' as maybe being an associated field.......

Standing Bear

reallyto hope that part about the 'mass field' is right.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  1 21:15:50 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 00:12:51 EDT
Subject: Re: Magnetism News from Hamburg university
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In a message dated 10/1/01 10:39:58 PM Central Daylight Time, 
rockcast net-link.net writes:

> according to some, if my memory serves me, the proton
 has been 'measured' to be 1837 times the 'mass' of the
 electron.  However, due to some recent posts about the
 nature of 'mass' as maybe being an associated field....... 

Mass field?  Mass and energy are not measured the same, and to apply figures 
that relate to mass - and directly convert the same number to energy, is 
shortsighted.

That is the same as saying a magnetic field of 20,000 Maxwell must always be 
produced by a specific mass of material - or 10 grams is always equal to a 
Webber, most of us know this is simply not true.  The rest can "think" about 
it.  It helps to know what magnetism is in the first place - something that 
the old "domain theory" never could explain and QM doesn't predict.

The quick explanation of magnetism - "a projection of the energy from within 
the atomic components, be it electron/electron or electron/proton in origin." 

Exactly how it was explained to me was as an electron/electron origin, 
however I was only shown the upper hemisphere of the atom as magnetic 
projection occurred from the electrons - so the lower hemisphere is a guess 
with only two choices - either electron or proton energy projection.  The 
energy looks like a tight twin projection, a vortex extending perpendicular 
to the "active" electron pairs orbit, or straight out of the "poles" of the 
atom.

That is just about all there is to it.

Chris
http://members.aol.com/jet22x/vortex.html

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnetism News from Hamburg university
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 15:55:55 +1000
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In reply to  Standing Bear's message of Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:57:22 -0700:
[snip]
>according to some, if my memory serves me, the proton
>has been 'measured' to be 1837 times the 'mass' of the
>electron.  However, due to some recent posts about the
>nature of 'mass' as maybe being an associated field.......
well go on....


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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In reply to  Hypercom59 aol.com's message of Tue, 2 Oct 2001 00:12:51
EDT:
[snip]
>Mass field?  Mass and energy are not measured the same, and to apply figures 
>that relate to mass - and directly convert the same number to energy, is 
>shortsighted.

IMO energy is related to mass through c^2. Rest mass to electrostatic
potential, kinetic energy (i.e. (relativistic mass minus rest mass) x
c^2) to magnetic field energy.

>
>That is the same as saying a magnetic field of 20,000 Maxwell must always be 
>produced by a specific mass of material - or 10 grams is always equal to a 
>Webber, most of us know this is simply not true. 

Indeed it isn't true, but then you are the only one who said it was, in
the text here above (another misinterpretation of what someone else
said).
[snip]
>The quick explanation of magnetism - "a projection of the energy from within 
>the atomic components, be it electron/electron or electron/proton in origin." 

But this is the conventional definition of magnetism (with the exception
of the proton bit). A "domain" is no more than an associated cluster of
such atoms with their magnetic fields pointing in the same direction.

>
>Exactly how it was explained to me was as an electron/electron origin, 
>however I was only shown the upper hemisphere of the atom as magnetic 
>projection occurred from the electrons - so the lower hemisphere is a guess 
>with only two choices - either electron or proton energy projection. 

The reason you were only shown the top half, is because the bottom half
is its mirror image. The vortices converge on the nucleus, not because
the nucleus has anything to do with it, but because that is also the
centre of the electron (which naturally enough is centred on the
nucleus).
IOW what you saw was correct, but your interpretation was not.
(Frequently the case with information obtained in this manner).

> The 
>energy looks like a tight twin projection, a vortex extending perpendicular 
>to the "active" electron pairs orbit, or straight out of the "poles" of the 
>atom.
>
>That is just about all there is to it.

Agreed (on an atomic level).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:55:16 -0700:

>From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>
>> If rest mass is tied to the electrostatic potential field, then
>> increasing cancellation of the nuclear Coulomb field by that of the
>> electron as the electron shrinks results in a loss of mass of both the
>> nucleus and the electron,
>
>Yes, up to a point. My problem with Mills is that he wants to assume quantum
>steps going down, down, way down, but he can only document a few. In fact
>some of the higher ones should be very easy to document as the
>instrumentation that we have for x-rays and gamma spectroscopy is far better
>than that for EUV and has been around for decades rather than months. His
>silence on this - i.e.showing evidence of higher energy photons to support
>the conclusions of higher level shrinkage, is deafening. It should be far
>easier to demonstrate than the very demanding EUV spectroscopy that he has
>already performed.

If you look at the graph on my web page, you will see that for a
catalyst that bumps the hydrino 1 level at a time, the maximum photon
energy liberated in any one jump is about 2 keV (and that is only by
about level 90; in practice fusion will probably occur by about level 15
- 16, by which time the maximum photon energy is only about 300-400 eV).
IOW all these photons are going to lie in the EUV, and will likely be
severely absorbed by anything they hit, making direct detection rather
difficult.

>
>BTW, I like the mental image which derives from your verbalization a lot. It
>is brings to mind the cosmological image of the vortex surrounding a quasar,
>where material is drawn in centripetally at the circumference and
>accelerated out from the polar ends. This image would also explain why, of
>all the elements in the periodic table, the proposed mechanism could only
>work with hydrogen with its single electron. Where I differ is - that it may
>only operate for one step or at most a few steps down.

I hope with the above to have alleviated your concerns.
[snip]
>Yes, let me congratulate you on getting this MathCad work together. I wish
>you could add some more verbaliztion to it, so that it would be able to
>explain your conclusions a little more thoroughly to a wider audience.

I was hoping that the graphs would do the trick. Obviously not :(.
[snip]
>> Now you are getting close. The one thing that almost no one sees is that
>> mass is an external property of particles, not an internal property.
>
>Many people see it - but it is usually expressed differently. This could be
>a spot where your verablization needs some polishing up. I would say in
>general terms when one is describing the dual nature of matter, it is the
>usual practice when groping with something complex like "wave / particle
>duality" to assume that implication of the word "particle" is mass (a
>priori) and that its congugate, the EM "wave" would seem to be what you are
>calling the "internal property."

I think we may be getting our wires crossed here regarding definitions
of internal and external. My use of the terms was meant very literally,
i.e. inside the radius of the particle, or outside the radius of the
particle. I was not referring to the QM usage of the terms.


>
>> By this I mean that the mass of a particle resides in its potential field,
>> which by definition resides outside the particle. This makes perfect
>> sense, when you consider that mass is that property of particles which
>> relates to their interactions with their environment (i.e. mass is
>> measured either by means of gravity or inertia, both of which pertain to
>> the environment of a particle).
>
>Got no problem with this, other than semantics, but I'll snip the
>anti-gravity and checker theory stuff with which I have big problems.

I would like to here your objections sometime.
[snip]
>> Other than disproportionation, I have seen nothing to indicate that the
>> process can be "auto-catalytic". However if Mills is correct about
>> n=1/16 being the most tightly bound level of hydrinohydride, then
>> everything beyond that is less tightly bound,
>
>How could he really know? He gives us no evidence of photons higher than
>about n=3 (or 1/3) and even the 3 level is weak, plus - in fact in earlier
>work doesn't Mills also say that shrinkage is auto-catalytic beyond a
>certain level?

Can you find a reference for this? I think you may have misinterpreted
his intent.

>
>It is easy to fall into a trap, when a genius like Mills has a very
>encompassing theory, and he is able to prove part of it to your
>satisfaction. The trap being: the part that he has proven doesn't always
>indicate that he got the whole thing right. 

Agreed.

>And you can't fall back on QM
>assumptions here, because real QM, as opossed to CQM , doesn't buy into any
>shrinkage, even one step of shrinkage.

No problem, I don't really intend to fall back on QM anyway, though it
might be handy to lean on the original model of the Bohr atom a bit :).
[snip]
>
>> and if a sufficiently
>> strong oxidising ion is present in the plasma to remove the electron
>> from H-[n=1/16], then it will also remove the electron from all the
>> successive levels,
>
>Look at this! how strong that would that oxidizing ion have to be! Where
>would you find such an ion in a cold plasma?

That depends on the voltage you are using to create the plasma. If it's
high enough, it will be adequate to rip the requisite electrons off.
Of course by then it has probably become a "hot" plasma, but who cares
as long as it works.
[snip]
>As I have stated above, Mills goves us no evidence for photons of anything
>near this level, so he could be totally wrong.

One of these days I must get around to putting different radii into his
magnetic energy formula for hydrino-hydride.
[snip]
>Even if this level of shrinkage happens, which I will repeat is highly
>unlikely from the evidence presented so far, you seem to be indicating that
>radius is the only thing that is important and you seem to be ignoring
>charge. With the Muon, charge works in favor of fusion so the comparison is
>not valid. Are you saying that charge is not somehow conserved?

When you say that charge works in favour of fusion with the muon,
exactly what do mean (given that muon and electron have the same
charge)?
For the record, I am definitely not saying that charge is not conserved.
If the proton charge is screened off outside the electron radius, then
the hydrino as a whole is a neutral particle, and the charge on the
target nucleus is irrelevant (that this is so is evident from the fact
that the hydrogen atom is a neutral particle).
Therefore indeed, the only thing of any importance is the radius of the
hydrino which is what determines how close the proton at the heart of
the hydrino can get to the target nucleus.

>
>> Yet, this scenario [Chubb hypothesis] is only a slight adaption of the
>Mössbauer effect (which is quite real).
>
>NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Perhaps you would care to explain why you don't believe there is any
correlation?
[snip]
>> At ICCF8, in their paper "The Emergence of a Coherent Explanation for
>Anomalies Observed in D/Pd and H/Pd Systems", McKubre,Tanzella,Tripodi, and
>Hagelstein report 104+-10% of the energy expected from D + D->He4.
>
>I think if you reread this article you will see that it is chock full of
>unsupported generalization, and that few if any actual experiments can show
>such a good correlation.

My impression is that the figure quoted came from one particularly
carefully carried out experiment.

[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  2 05:24:08 2001
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Subject: Introduction to Aetherometry
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 08:23:29 -0500
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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All,

I am passing this along to those who may not have viewed the 
AETHEROMETRY.COM website of the Correas. The newly posted material may be 
accessed without fees.  It is an excellent summary of their  experimental 
and theoretical work.

Gene Mallove




******
Dear Friends and Colleagues,


AKRONOS Publishing is pleased to announce that the much awaited text,
"Introduction to Experimental Aetherometry Vols.1 & 2" by P. and A. 
Correa,
is now available on its website:

     http://www.aetherometry.com

This text forms a comprehensive overview, both scientific and 
philosophical,
to the monographs in Experimental Aetherometry which have been published
on the AKRONOS website during the last two months. It comprises the
following
sections, each of which forms a separate HTML document:

  1. The basic problems in Reich's theory of the ORAC anomalies, and the
      trajectory of the aetherometric solutions

  2. Overview of Experimental Aetherometry Vol. 1

  3. Overview of Experimental Aetherometry Vol. 2

  4. The Specter of Wilhelm Reich

  5. Why speak of an Aether?

  6. On 'wishful thinking' at the merger of BioPhysics and Philosophy.


Yours,
Laura McFinlay
Akronos Publishing

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  2 07:24:35 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Subject: Re: Magnetism News from Hamburg university
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In a message dated 10/2/01 1:53:20 AM Central Daylight Time, 
rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:

>IMO energy is related to mass through c^2. Rest mass to electrostatic
>potential, kinetic energy (i.e. (relativistic mass minus rest mass) x
>c^2) to magnetic field energy.

Electrostatic potential has nothing to do with the nuclear energy levels 
within the electron core. 

hypercom59
>>The quick explanation of magnetism - "a projection of the energy from 
within 
>>the atomic components, be it electron/electron or electron/proton in 
origin." 

Robin
>But this is the conventional definition of magnetism (with the exception
>of the proton bit).  A "domain" is no more than an associated cluster of
>such atoms with their magnetic fields pointing in the same direction.

There you go with the "Domain"again.
You are incorrect, the domain theory clearly states that; a cluster of atoms 
produces a magnetic field of one Maxwell - which is equal to one magnetic 
line of force.  Anyway - where within the domain theory is electron energy 
listed as the root of magnetic energy and why in our early communications 
were you so insistent that the Domain, and not the electron was the answer?  
Inversely, a cluster of 100,000,000 atoms of magnetically charged material 
the size of "the old Domain" is historically supposed to produce ONE Line of 
force.  If the electron truly is responsible, up to 200,000,000 vortexes of 
magnetic energy (one exiting each atomic pole) - SHOULD be produced.  The old 
One Maxwell figure must be subcategorized to account for the finer energies 
once not realized.

Each atom produces the magnetic energy, NOT a cluster of atoms producing one 
line of energy.  The domain proclaims that a cluster of atoms is required to 
constitute a DOMAIN - However in my theory - EACH atom produces its own 
projection and the cluster of atoms (however large) is simply called a 
magnet.  Asimov claimed better magnets were produced by starting off with 
granules (not dust sized) smaller than what would constitute a domain.  This 
clearly indicates a cluster of millions - if not billions of atom was once 
thought to constitute a domain.  This is simply not true. 
My theory outlines each step, from the subatomic birth of the energy called 
magnetism to magnetism's true structure.


>The vortices converge on the nucleus, not because
> the nucleus has anything to do with it, but because that is also the
> centre of the electron 

Incorrect. 

The vortex energy is produced in the electron orbits - far from the core, and 
they do Not converge on the nucleus.  The nucleus and the center of the 
electron are two very different parts of the atom.

>IOW what you saw was correct, but your interpretation was not.

Feel free to take a look for yourself Robin, however "I am correct."

Best Regards,
Chris
http://members.aol.com/jet22x/vortex.html

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From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

> for a catalyst that bumps the hydrino 1 level at a time, the maximum
photon
> energy liberated in any one jump is about 2 keV (and that is only by
> about level 90; in practice fusion will probably occur by about level 15..
> by which time the maximum photon energy is only about 300-400 eV).
> IOW all these photons are going to lie in the EUV, and will likely be
> severely absorbed by anything they hit, making direct detection rather
> difficult.

There is a substaintial difference in being able to measure soft x rays as
opposed to EUV at the low end <100 eV. Above 500 eV Bragg diffraction can be
used in crystal detectors while at lower energies one must use multilayer
structures or photocells that have comparatively poor resolution. Later
today I will try to locate some actually detector products from
manufacturers to better demonstrate what I am saying.

But even more important is the fact that if fusion did occur at level 15,
this would give a massive, clear, and unmistakeable x-ray signal, far above
the range of soft x rays and you can rest assured that if such a signal were
present, even in a tiny flux, that it would have been very prominently
featured in the title line of any study that Mills submitted for
publication.

My conclusion from the lack of any publication to this effect is that there
is zero evidence of fusion, or for that matter for any known nuclear
reaction, in the BLP experiments. There is really no other logical
conclusion, Robin.

BTW the reverse gyrotron is rated at about 50 kW isn't it? At those
extremely high power levels, one should expect a substantial signal at any
chosen EM spectrum. Therefore, if a 200 eV photon were expected at some
level of shrinkage, then Mills would have had a detection crystal or witness
film specially tailored for this exact wavelength, because he would know,
with near absolute certainty, that no physicist could explain photons of
that energy level otherwise - that is, other than as the product of some
reaction that is way above a chemical reaction.

Photons of 27.2 should not be expected in this cold plasma, either, but
these are so close to chemical or cold plasmas that their presence is not
nearly as clear evidence as what could as would have been provided, if it
were indeed present. With claimed OU levels that are 1000 times higher than
combusiton, as Mills has published several times, then more than enough of
the high shrinkage level photons should be in evdience, even if the spectrum
was comparatively rare in the overall energy picture and undetectable in say
a 1 kW plasma.

If what you surmise about higher level steps is valid, then one or even
several should have been pinpointed months ago. In contrast, the best
evidence available for what is actually going on in the BLP plasma is that
one well-known graph where Mills shows that well over 90% of the plasma
energy is coming off at ~10.6 eV. Do you want me to find the citation?

> >> Yet, this scenario [Chubb hypothesis] is only a slight adaption of the
> >Mössbauer effect (which is quite real).

> >NOT EVEN CLOSE.

> Perhaps you would care to explain why you don't believe there is any
> correlation?

I have avoided wasting time with this because the comparison is almost
silly, but since you are somewhat tied to it, I will put together another
post aimed specifically on the Chubb hypothesis and how it is truly
pathological science at its worst. But for starters, ask yourself, how was
the Mössbauer effect  discovered? If you quessed " with a radiation
detector" then you are probably well on your way to understanding why one
cannot make use of a particular effect, an effect that absolutely relies on
high energy radiation, to prove or even suggest an explanation for the lack
of radiation in a totally unrelated system. If you ponder the ramifications
of this for even a short while, I think you will see that is absurd beyond
all question.

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  2 11:10:12 2001
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
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Subject: Translating paper on water structure
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Mizuno asked me to translate a four-page paper about the structure of 
water, for submission to journals in English. This has no connection with 
CF, as far as I know. It is interesting, but I know very little about it, 
so I am not confident that I will do it correctly. Anyone knowledgeable 
about this subject who can assist should please contact me directly, via 
e-mail.

Here are some other papers about this subject:

http://www.hwi.buffalo.edu/ACA/ACA97/abstracts/text/E025.html
http://www.phys.ttu.edu/~dujcb/ECCC5/index.html

Attached is the title, authors and my version of the Abstract, which I just 
wrote.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The effect of infrared light on the properties of water, measured by x-ray 
diffraction and electrical conductivity
Shigezo Shimokawa (a), Teturo Yokono (a), Tadahiko Mizuno, (b) Hiroki 
Tamura, (b) and Tomoki Erata (b)

a) Technoscience Laboratory, Ohasa, Nakamachi, 22-18,Ebetu, 069-0854
b) Hokkaido University, Graduate School of Engneering, Sapporo, 060-8628


Abstract

As long ago as 1933, it has been suggested that water molecules aggregate 
together to form clusters. [1, 2] In recent years, the structure of these 
clusters has gradually been made clearer by studies with x-ray and neutron 
diffraction analysis, and studies of water in the vapor phase. Theoretical 
models have been proposed, based on mathematical analyses of experimental 
results. [8, 9] We have exposed samples of pure water to infrared light, 
and then observed changes in the structure of the clusters, using x-ray 
diffraction and measurements of electrical conductivity. We have found that 
when pure water is exposed to infrared light, clusters are broken into 
smaller fragments, which gradually join together again to form normal-sized 
clusters. Comparing samples of water immediately after infrared exposure to 
samples that have not been irradiated, we find the number of clusters 
increases, which indicates that many smaller clusters occupy the same space 
formerly taken up by a few. The number increases by roughly a factor of 
four. Also, the coefficient of viscosity increases in water exposed to 
infrared. In the course of time after the exposure, water gradually 
re-forms a smaller number of large clusters. [This takes fifty hours or 
longer.] We use x-ray diffraction measurements to estimate the energy of 
the cluster groups, based on simple molecular mechanics. We find two energy 
levels. The minimum, or lowest metastable energy levels obtained, can be 
explained with x-ray diffraction.

[End]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  2 13:27:51 2001
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Subject: Test, again
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My messages do not seem to be getting through, or they are not coming back 
to me. Did anyone see, "Translating paper on water structure"?

- JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  2 13:28:48 2001
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Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 16:31:22 -0400
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> My messages do not seem to be getting through, or they are not coming back
> to me. Did anyone see, "Translating paper on water structure"?
> 
> - JR

Saw it.  Along with your first test.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  2 13:41:43 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 20:41:32 GMT
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On Tue, 02 Oct 2001 16:11:18 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>My messages do not seem to be getting through, or they are not coming back 
>to me. Did anyone see, "Translating paper on water structure"?

Yup.  By Mizuno.

I can't help on that subject.  :)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  2 13:52:33 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Test, again
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> > to me. Did anyone see, "Translating paper on water structure"?
> >
> > - JR
>
>Saw it.  Along with your first test.

This is odd. It seems that every second message I send to Vortex does not 
return to me, but they are all sent to other people.

That was a rough draft, by the way. Don't blame Shimokawa et al. if it 
includes a mistake! Mistakes are my fault.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  2 13:56:57 2001
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Jed Rothwell wrote:


> This is odd. It seems that every second message I send to Vortex does not
> return to me, but they are all sent to other people.

You can always check the archives to see if Vortex remailed.  If
so, the problem is possibly with your ISP:

http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/

> That was a rough draft, by the way. Don't blame Shimokawa et al. if it
> includes a mistake! Mistakes are my fault.

Yeah, after following you on SPF it looks like all researchers
mistakes are your fault.  ;-)

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  2 14:18:07 2001
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YES

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> My messages do not seem to be getting through, or they are not coming back
> to me. Did anyone see, "Translating paper on water structure"?
>
> - JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  2 14:48:49 2001
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Yes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 4:11 PM
Subject: Test, again


> My messages do not seem to be getting through, or they are not coming back
> to me. Did anyone see, "Translating paper on water structure"?
>
> - JR
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  2 14:57:14 2001
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Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:11:29 -0400
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Also. I believe there is a 'me too' list option that determines whether you
get copies of what you send.
I don't know how to get to it though.

I got your two messages 8 minutes apart, though you sent them 2 hours apart.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 4:11 PM
Subject: Test, again


> My messages do not seem to be getting through, or they are not coming back
> to me. Did anyone see, "Translating paper on water structure"?
>
> - JR
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  2 15:38:07 2001
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Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:36:16 -0400
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Test, again
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
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Hi Jed,

Your message of Tue 02 Oct 2001 16:11:18 came through to me OK

Norman

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Jed,

I saw the message, for what it is worth.

Joe Thomas

View the NEW Reality!  See it at http://www.transmutation.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 01:11 PM
Subject: Test, again


> My messages do not seem to be getting through, or they are not coming back
> to me. Did anyone see, "Translating paper on water structure"?
>
> - JR
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  2 18:56:22 2001
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Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:51:46 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Vortex not quite working
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A few people reported they did not get the message. I did not get it. It
seems Vortex is malfunctioning slightly.

I will edit the Abstract and fix some problems that people have pointed
out, wait for comments from Mizuno, and post it again soon.

Thanks for the help so far.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 00:07:25 2001
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 03:15:05 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Barker Radioactive work: Schnurer Asking for old files off line
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	PLEASE


	Dear Vo,

	I am missing some of the files about Barker.

	If I ever sent any of you files about Barker and his work with
readioactivity 

	PLEASE CONTACT ME OFF LINE

	Especially looking for old construction instructions, please.


				Thanks

							JH Schnurer

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New Mills' hearsay
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:19:23 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 02 Oct 2001 07:29:28 -0700:
[snip]
>There is a substaintial difference in being able to measure soft x rays as
>opposed to EUV at the low end <100 eV. Above 500 eV Bragg diffraction can be
>used in crystal detectors while at lower energies one must use multilayer
>structures or photocells that have comparatively poor resolution. Later
>today I will try to locate some actually detector products from
>manufacturers to better demonstrate what I am saying.

I look forward to it.

>
>But even more important is the fact that if fusion did occur at level 15,
>this would give a massive, clear, and unmistakeable x-ray signal, far above
>the range of soft x rays 

I agree.

>and you can rest assured that if such a signal were
>present, even in a tiny flux, that it would have been very prominently
>featured in the title line of any study that Mills submitted for
>publication.

I doubt it. Mills wants to keep as far away from fusion as he can.
(Doesn't want to be "tainted" by CF). In fact I suspect he even tries to
ensure that he doesn't achieve fusion.

>
>My conclusion from the lack of any publication to this effect is that there
>is zero evidence of fusion, or for that matter for any known nuclear
>reaction, in the BLP experiments. There is really no other logical
>conclusion, Robin.

Actually I must agree. I would indeed expect to see at least some
energetic x-rays.

>
>BTW the reverse gyrotron is rated at about 50 kW isn't it? 

It may be rated at that, but I suspect that it is as yet far from living
up to its potential.

>At those
>extremely high power levels, one should expect a substantial signal at any
>chosen EM spectrum. Therefore, if a 200 eV photon were expected at some
>level of shrinkage, then Mills would have had a detection crystal or witness
>film specially tailored for this exact wavelength, because he would know,
>with near absolute certainty, that no physicist could explain photons of
>that energy level otherwise - that is, other than as the product of some
>reaction that is way above a chemical reaction.


I agree with you that this would be a good idea, but that doesn't
necessarily mean that Mills has thought of it.

>
>Photons of 27.2 should not be expected in this cold plasma, either, but
>these are so close to chemical or cold plasmas that their presence is not
>nearly as clear evidence as what could as would have been provided, if it
>were indeed present. With claimed OU levels that are 1000 times higher than
>combusiton, as Mills has published several times, then more than enough of

I have noticed multiple publications of 100 times combustion, and his
latest effort was about 500 times combustion, but I don't recall seeing
1000 times.
[snip]
>If what you surmise about higher level steps is valid, then one or even
>several should have been pinpointed months ago. 


I agree that at least the first step should have shown up (40.8 eV -
27.2 eV = 13.6 eV = 91.16 nm ; there is actually a small peak at about
92 nm) unless Mills is wrong about the emission of UV/EUV, and all the
energy between levels is removed by the collision that produces the
shrinkage, in which case there would only be UV/EUV from the
recombination reaction (e.g. Ar+++ + e- -> Ar++ + 27.6 eV photon), the
rest of the energy from the shrinkage reaction being present as kinetic
energy of the constituent atoms.

>In contrast, the best
>evidence available for what is actually going on in the BLP plasma is that
>one well-known graph where Mills shows that well over 90% of the plasma
>energy is coming off at ~10.6 eV. Do you want me to find the citation?

No, I agree that the 10 eV peak is very strong. I think this is the
10.19 eV peak that corresponds to the difference between the first
excited state of H and the "ground state" (i.e. the Lyman-alpha line).
Obviously something is exciting the H atoms, and it isn't all that
visible in the graphs. Perhaps it is at least partially kinetic energy,
(or do the energies required just fall outside the boundaries  of his
graphs?) :>.
One other interesting point is that if higher energy UV photons are to
blame, then after exciting the H atom, they should be reduced in energy
by 10.2 eV and the remainder should show up on the graph - e.g. there
should be a photon at 13.6-10.2 = 3.4 eV ~ 365 nm (there is at least one
graph where this shows up as a peak on the H graph, but not on the H/Sr
vapour mixture graph!; see "Anomalous Argon-Hydrogen-Strontium
Discharge").

>
>> >> Yet, this scenario [Chubb hypothesis] is only a slight adaption of the
>> >Mössbauer effect (which is quite real).
>
>> >NOT EVEN CLOSE.
>
>> Perhaps you would care to explain why you don't believe there is any
>> correlation?
>
>I have avoided wasting time with this because the comparison is almost
>silly, but since you are somewhat tied to it, I will put together another
>post aimed specifically on the Chubb hypothesis and how it is truly
>pathological science at its worst. 

Ok, I will respond to that post separately, rather than responding here.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
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On Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 02:56:35PM -0400, Terry Blanton wrote:
> http://www.rense.com/general14/WTCfailureanalysis.pdf

I don't think that it's safe to ignore the effects of the impact.
It's not clear whether this set off a chain of resonant effects in
the structure of the building that could have caused its structural
collapse even if there wasn't a fire.  All of the structural integrity
was carried by the external walls IIRC.

Joe

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 08:43:47 2001
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Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 11:43:41 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
In-Reply-To: <20011003112547.E88863 tao.org.uk>
References: <3BB224E3.11AAE8C1 bellsouth.net>
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Josef Karthauser wrote:

the structure of the building that could have caused its structural
>collapse even if there wasn't a fire.  All of the structural integrity
>was carried by the external walls IIRC.

I do not know what "IIRC" stands for, but anyway, most of the WTC structure 
& strength was in internal walls, not the external walls.

- Jed

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On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:43:41AM -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Josef Karthauser wrote:
>=20
> the structure of the building that could have caused its structural
> >collapse even if there wasn't a fire.  All of the structural integrity
> >was carried by the external walls IIRC.
>=20
> I do not know what "IIRC" stands for, but anyway, most of the WTC structu=
re=20
> & strength was in internal walls, not the external walls.

:)  IIRC =3D if I remember correctly.
I obviously had wrong information.

Thanks,
Joe

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 09:39:14 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Josef Karthauser <joe@tao.org.uk>
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:49:32 -0700
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On Wednesday 03 October 2001 03:25, Josef Karthauser wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 02:56:35PM -0400, Terry Blanton wrote:
> > http://www.rense.com/general14/WTCfailureanalysis.pdf
> 
> I don't think that it's safe to ignore the effects of the 
impact.
> It's not clear whether this set off a chain of resonant 
effects in
> the structure of the building that could have caused its 
structural
> collapse even if there wasn't a fire.  All of the structural 
integrity
> was carried by the external walls IIRC.
> 
> Joe
> 

----------------------------------------
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The Bin Laden family builds towers like the WTC.  They
are building one right now in Beirut that would have
been a little shorter than the WTC, but now has greater
standing and prestige due to the loss of the WTC.
  That crazy Osama bin Asshole is an engineer himself,
having gotten his degree in Jiddah in Saudi Arabia.
Correction, he is not crazy, but IS a monster.

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 09:46:01 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Josef Karthauser <joe@tao.org.uk>
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:53:01 -0700
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On Wednesday 03 October 2001 08:47, Josef Karthauser wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:43:41AM -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > Josef Karthauser wrote:
> > 
> > the structure of the building that could have caused its 
structural
> > >collapse even if there wasn't a fire.  All of the 
structural integrity
> > >was carried by the external walls IIRC.
> > 
> > I do not know what "IIRC" stands for, but anyway, most of 
the WTC structure 
> > & strength was in internal walls, not the external walls.
> 
> :)  IIRC = if I remember correctly.
> I obviously had wrong information.
> 
> Thanks,
> Joe
> 

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Hate to tell ya this Joe, but there is some kind of virus or
something attached to your letter.  Would'nt open it for
all the tea in China.


Standing Bear

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Sorry Standing Bear,

You are _wrong_!  There is _no_ virus attached to my email from
this end.

I use FreeBSD (like linux) and a text based mail package.  I will
bet you 100,000 UKP (can't bet any more any be able to pay out ;) that
you didn't get a virus from me.

It could be that your virus checker is too sensitive and is accusing
non virus data as being viruses?

maybe?

Joe


On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 12:53:01PM -0700, Standing Bear wrote:
> On Wednesday 03 October 2001 08:47, Josef Karthauser wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:43:41AM -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > > Josef Karthauser wrote:
> > > 
> > > the structure of the building that could have caused its 
> structural
> > > >collapse even if there wasn't a fire.  All of the 
> structural integrity
> > > >was carried by the external walls IIRC.
> > > 
> > > I do not know what "IIRC" stands for, but anyway, most of 
> the WTC structure 
> > > & strength was in internal walls, not the external walls.
> > 
> > :)  IIRC = if I remember correctly.
> > I obviously had wrong information.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Joe
> > 
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; charset="us-ascii"; 
> name="Attachment: 1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Description: 
> ----------------------------------------
> Hate to tell ya this Joe, but there is some kind of virus or
> something attached to your letter.  Would'nt open it for
> all the tea in China.
> 
> 
> Standing Bear

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Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 13:48:33 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
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Josef Karthauser wrote:
> 
> Sorry Standing Bear,
> 
> You are _wrong_!  There is _no_ virus attached to my email from
> this end.

Standing Bear is a bit paranoid.  He thinks your PGP signature is
a virus.

Regards,

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 10:47:17 2001
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:45:57 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
Message-ID: <20011003184557.S88863 tao.org.uk>
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References: <3BB224E3.11AAE8C1 bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20011003114233.00aa8278@pop.mindspring.com> <20011003164735.O88863@tao.org.uk> <01100312530101.01207@tyrannosaur> <20011003182101.R88863@tao.org.uk>
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On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 06:21:01PM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote:
> Sorry Standing Bear,
>=20
> You are _wrong_!  There is _no_ virus attached to my email from
> this end.
>=20
> I use FreeBSD (like linux) and a text based mail package.  I will
> bet you 100,000 UKP (can't bet any more any be able to pay out ;) that
> you didn't get a virus from me.
>=20
> It could be that your virus checker is too sensitive and is accusing
> non virus data as being viruses?
>=20
> maybe?
>=20
> Joe

There is an attachment on my email.  It should look like this:

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD)
    Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

    iEYEARECAAYFAju7MxYACgkQXVIcjOaxUBaOogCfTgnIkiQMRJl4R0OuDlb+pDfo
    c10AoKwkeICZojUIs+1HRNK+fEypgbAl
    =3DJpMM
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

And it will be of type 'application/pgp-signature'.

I thought we discussed this before - it's only my PGP cryptographic
signature.

Joe

--MRBOAUz+O/XNC2GI
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
Content-Disposition: inline

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iEYEARECAAYFAju7TtQACgkQXVIcjOaxUBYJgQCg6Zlr52cK9Nwaa/uAzFTANRj3
+rYAoJ5SS2UtS0Cne2iK1s6OSX/KQLTh
=uL60
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--MRBOAUz+O/XNC2GI--

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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:47:28 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
Message-ID: <20011003184728.T88863 tao.org.uk>
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	vortex-l eskimo.com
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On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 01:48:33PM -0400, Terry Blanton wrote:
> Josef Karthauser wrote:
> >=20
> > Sorry Standing Bear,
> >=20
> > You are _wrong_!  There is _no_ virus attached to my email from
> > this end.
>=20
> Standing Bear is a bit paranoid.  He thinks your PGP signature is
> a virus.

No worries, I just thought that I already reassured him about it a
few weeks ago.  Obviously not :)

Joe

--0lx/R+CYDdR/AN/7
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
Content-Disposition: inline

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iEYEARECAAYFAju7TzAACgkQXVIcjOaxUBawmACfUQ4hbNQ8v0q0luVeFMVOXjxO
pN4An0IXbGOKuE8BzQJZDSSjTrkIYDFA
=i1AJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--0lx/R+CYDdR/AN/7--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 11:05:16 2001
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:07:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Test, again
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20011002161034.00aa43a0 pop.mindspring.com>
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Jed
	I got it here in LA

Hank



On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> My messages do not seem to be getting through, or they are not coming back 
> to me. Did anyone see, "Translating paper on water structure"?
> 
> - JR
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 11:08:49 2001
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Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 12:56:50 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20011003114233.00aa8278 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <20011003112547.E88863 tao.org.uk>
 <3BB224E3.11AAE8C1 bellsouth.net>
 <3BB224E3.11AAE8C1 bellsouth.net>
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At 11:43 AM 10/3/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Josef Karthauser wrote:
>
>the structure of the building that could have caused its structural
>>collapse even if there wasn't a fire.  All of the structural integrity
>>was carried by the external walls IIRC.
>
>I do not know what "IIRC" stands for, but anyway, most of the WTC 
>structure & strength was in internal walls, not the external walls.
>
>- Jed

It was my understanding that the building was designed using "redundant 
superstructure" so the walls interior and exterior and the corner posts and 
the elevator shafts were all structural members.

As a result the buildings lasted amazingly about an hour.    The structure 
was not "bound to fail" as suggested in the first post.     Pancake 
collapse is actually quite common during earthquakes.  When the shock 
shears the structure of the ground level floor the entire rest of the 
building drops that distance (usually between 10 and 30 feet) and the 
impact is far far beyond what any structural materials or techniques could 
manage.

Do this experiment.  Take a small (empty) coffee can and place it on the 
flat ground.  Grab a golf club.  Now carefully stand on the can.  place 
your full body weight on it.

Notice it carries the load gracefully....

Now tap the side with the golf club.

When the can fails the entire structure fails together.

The amazing thing is not that towers fell.  The aircraft should have taken 
out enough structural members to cause the buildings to fall 
immediately.  What is amazing is that these building stood for an hour 
after the impact.



Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 12:11:53 2001
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Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 12:00:16 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: carbon nanotubes for Case replicaiton?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <005c01c14c3d$a42b4620$aa69fea9 cpq>
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If any CF experimenters out there are considering an attempt to replicate
the Case work, with or without ego enhancements, and/or any other work where
Carbon of a specific geometric and spatial dimension is critical, this may
be of interest.

See http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2001/10/01/rtr374308.html
or from EVworld.com Update:

JAPANESE FIRM ANNOUNCES NANOTUBE BREAKTHROUGH
Today, the Japanese firm, Nikkiso announced it had perfected a breakthrough
in the commercial production of nanotubes, microscopic structures made of a
special form of carbon.

The company claims that it has developed a method for mass production of
this material for just $0.84 cents per gram. Currently, this material costs
ten times the price of gold, which is why, despite its potential use in
hundreds of applications, it has been slow to mature.

I intend on writing to them now to see if their nanotubes, like some of the
others that have been featured in the Science press recently, have a radius
(axial) of ~50 nm. This might be of interest to anyone who suspects that
there is something special about the 27.2 eV energy "hole." However there do
seem to be many companies with Nikkiso in the name - I think it could be
this company Nikkiso-sundstrand: www.nikkiso-sundstrand.co.jp/ but I'm not
sure.

....One of the potential uses for nanotubes is as a low-cost medium for
storing hydrogen...Scary thought... if the nanotubes did have the requisite
energy hole, and if the corresponding theory were accurate, then any attempt
to store hydrogen with them could potentially create a large bomb instead...

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 12:35:14 2001
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Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 15:32:59 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
In-Reply-To: <01100312493200.01207 tyrannosaur>
References: <20011003112547.E88863 tao.org.uk>
 <3BB224E3.11AAE8C1 bellsouth.net>
 <20011003112547.E88863 tao.org.uk>
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Standing Bear wrote:

>The Bin Laden family builds towers like the WTC.  They
>are building one right now in Beirut . . .

>   That crazy Osama bin Asshole is an engineer himself,
>having gotten his degree in Jiddah in Saudi Arabia.
>Correction, he is not crazy, but IS a monster.

That is an interesting point. I suppose the attackers must of known how 
destructive the attack would be. Bin Ledan was supposedly behind the 
previous attempt to blow up the building, which failed. I wonder how close 
it came to success?

By the way, Mr. Bear, please try to refrain from using obscenities such as 
"Asshole." That is bad form here on Vortex.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 12:55:33 2001
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:58:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: carbon nanotubes for Case replicaiton?
In-Reply-To: <005c01c14c3d$a42b4620$aa69fea9 cpq>
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Jones,
	I have been theoreticaly working on Hydrogen storage in nanotubes
for a while. So far, I believe that the best storage chemists have been
able to replicate reliably achieve is about 15% by weight, Hydrogen to
Carbon in nanotubes. I believe that most likely nanotube to occur when
they are made is about a (10,10) single wall nanotube, although multiwall
nanotubes are quite common. The (n,m) nanotube would have a circumference
about 1.44*sqrt(3)*sqrt(n^2+m^2+n*m) Angstroms, so its radius would be
1.44*1.732*17.32/2/pi=6.88 Angstroms(1 Angstrom = 10^-10 meters).
	A good book about Carbon Nanotubes is "Physical Properties of
Carbon Nanotubes" by R. Saito, G. Dresselhaus and M.S. Dresselhaus. The
book was published by the Imperial College Press in 1998. It is
distributed by World Scientific Publishing, which has a web page you can
order it from. I think a single walled nanotube of 50 nanometers (500
Angstroms) is very rare, and probably not available.

Hank

On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Jones Beene wrote:

> If any CF experimenters out there are considering an attempt to replicate
> the Case work, with or without ego enhancements, and/or any other work where
> Carbon of a specific geometric and spatial dimension is critical, this may
> be of interest.
> 
> See http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2001/10/01/rtr374308.html
> or from EVworld.com Update:
> 
> JAPANESE FIRM ANNOUNCES NANOTUBE BREAKTHROUGH
> Today, the Japanese firm, Nikkiso announced it had perfected a breakthrough
> in the commercial production of nanotubes, microscopic structures made of a
> special form of carbon.
> 
> The company claims that it has developed a method for mass production of
> this material for just $0.84 cents per gram. Currently, this material costs
> ten times the price of gold, which is why, despite its potential use in
> hundreds of applications, it has been slow to mature.
> 
> I intend on writing to them now to see if their nanotubes, like some of the
> others that have been featured in the Science press recently, have a radius
> (axial) of ~50 nm. This might be of interest to anyone who suspects that
> there is something special about the 27.2 eV energy "hole." However there do
> seem to be many companies with Nikkiso in the name - I think it could be
> this company Nikkiso-sundstrand: www.nikkiso-sundstrand.co.jp/ but I'm not
> sure.
> 
> ....One of the potential uses for nanotubes is as a low-cost medium for
> storing hydrogen...Scary thought... if the nanotubes did have the requisite
> energy hole, and if the corresponding theory were accurate, then any attempt
> to store hydrogen with them could potentially create a large bomb instead...
> 
> Jones
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 13:48:12 2001
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Content-Type: text/plain;
  charset="iso-8859-1"
From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:58:05 -0700
X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2]
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Dear Josef,
	Hate to chew this fat too much,  I might wind up as ugly
as that talibaner or whatever.  Anyway, I said 'virus or 
whatever' and not just virus.  I did not have the time to deal 
with it at the moment.  Turns out it is a 'PGP signature' that is
appended to the end of the letter.  I do not know if your mailer
does this to all your letters, but its presence can scare the 
hell out of some 'windows' users.  I use SuSE linux with firewall
active, so do not care, and used a hex editor to take apart the
attachment.  That is how I found out what it was.  No.  I will
not bet against you or any other fellow Linux/Unix fan for that
matter.  If you have it together enough to get online with the
operating system of the people, you are no beginner at this
and love freedom like the rest of us.

Standing Bear








On Wednesday 03 October 2001 10:21, Josef Karthauser wrote:
> Sorry Standing Bear,
> 
> You are _wrong_!  There is _no_ virus attached to my email from
> this end.
> 
> I use FreeBSD (like linux) and a text based mail package.  I 
will
> bet you 100,000 UKP (can't bet any more any be able to pay out 
;) that
> you didn't get a virus from me.
> 
> It could be that your virus checker is too sensitive and is 
accusing
> non virus data as being viruses?
> 
> maybe?
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 12:53:01PM -0700, Standing Bear wrote:
> > On Wednesday 03 October 2001 08:47, Josef Karthauser wrote:
> > > On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:43:41AM -0400, Jed Rothwell 
wrote:
> > > > Josef Karthauser wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > the structure of the building that could have caused its 
> > structural
> > > > >collapse even if there wasn't a fire.  All of the 
> > structural integrity
> > > > >was carried by the external walls IIRC.
> > > > 
> > > > I do not know what "IIRC" stands for, but anyway, most 
of 
> > the WTC structure 
> > > > & strength was in internal walls, not the external walls.
> > > 
> > > :)  IIRC = if I remember correctly.
> > > I obviously had wrong information.
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > Joe
> > > 
> > 
> > ----------------------------------------
> > Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; charset="us-ascii"; 
> > name="Attachment: 1"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > Content-Description: 
> > ----------------------------------------
> > Hate to tell ya this Joe, but there is some kind of virus or
> > something attached to your letter.  Would'nt open it for
> > all the tea in China.
> > 
> > 
> > Standing Bear
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 14:01:51 2001
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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 22:01:32 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
Message-ID: <20011003220132.V88863 tao.org.uk>
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References: <3BB224E3.11AAE8C1 bellsouth.net> <01100312530101.01207@tyrannosaur> <20011003182101.R88863@tao.org.uk> <01100316580500.03031@tyrannosaur>
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On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 04:58:05PM -0700, Standing Bear wrote:
> Dear Josef,
> 	Hate to chew this fat too much,  I might wind up as ugly
> as that talibaner or whatever.  Anyway, I said 'virus or=20
> whatever' and not just virus.  I did not have the time to deal=20
> with it at the moment.  Turns out it is a 'PGP signature' that is
> appended to the end of the letter.  I do not know if your mailer
> does this to all your letters, but its presence can scare the=20
> hell out of some 'windows' users.  I use SuSE linux with firewall
> active, so do not care, and used a hex editor to take apart the
> attachment.  That is how I found out what it was.  No.  I will
> not bet against you or any other fellow Linux/Unix fan for that
> matter.  If you have it together enough to get online with the
> operating system of the people, you are no beginner at this
> and love freedom like the rest of us.

I hope that it doesn't end up ugly! :)

I'm no beginner at this either.  I've been programming for twenty
odd years, and a unix developer for the last five.  As I said in a
previous mail on the subject, it's a shame that Microsoft has scared
the hell out of it's users inadvertantly - their bugs put shame on
the Internet.  It never used to be this way.  And now as a unix user
and an internet pioneer I'm penalised for their errors. i.e. people
being scared to read my mail when there's nothing wrong with it.

Shame shame.
Joe

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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: carbon nanotubes for Case replicaiton?
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Hi Hank,

Thanks for setting me strait on the likely dimensions for these. I had been
incorrectly remembering a "Physics News" article on the work of Yudasaka of
NEC on nanotubes. In that case it appears that the length, not the diameter
was 50 nm. (her typical size: 2 nm diameter, length of 50 nm).

I'm still scouring the net for durable natural materials with interior
geometries of 50 nm. But, come to think of it, since it is resonance that is
important here, a length of 50 nm might conceivably work - especially since
(if nanotubes are highly electrically conductive, as one would suspect) they
might also act as pre-tuned antennae for EM of that wavelength.

Got any idea how many D2 molecules would theoretically fit into a nanotube
at say STP or, better yet, at what level of vacuum there would only be a
single molecule in the tube, on average?

Jones

> Jones,
> I have been theoreticaly working on Hydrogen storage in nanotubes
> for a while. So far, I believe that the best storage chemists have been
> able to replicate reliably achieve is about 15% by weight, Hydrogen to
> Carbon in nanotubes. I believe that most likely nanotube to occur when
> they are made is about a (10,10) single wall nanotube, although multiwall
> nanotubes are quite common. The (n,m) nanotube would have a circumference
about 1.44*sqrt(3)*sqrt(n^2+m^2+n*m) Angstroms, so its radius would be
1.44*1.732*17.32/2/pi=6.88 Angstroms(1 Angstrom = 10^-10 meters).


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 14:10:44 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Charles Ford <cjford1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 17:20:50 -0700
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On Wednesday 03 October 2001 10:56, Charles Ford wrote:
> At 11:43 AM 10/3/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >Josef Karthauser wrote:
> >
> >the structure of the building that could have caused its 
structural
> >>collapse even if there wasn't a fire.  All of the structural 
integrity
> >>was carried by the external walls IIRC.
> >
> >I do not know what "IIRC" stands for, but anyway, most of the 
WTC 
> >structure & strength was in internal walls, not the external 
walls.
> >
> >- Jed
> 
> It was my understanding that the building was designed using 
"redundant 
> superstructure" so the walls interior and exterior and the 
corner posts and 
> the elevator shafts were all structural members.
> 
> As a result the buildings lasted amazingly about an hour.    
The structure 
> was not "bound to fail" as suggested in the first post.     
Pancake 
> collapse is actually quite common during earthquakes.  When 
the shock 
> shears the structure of the ground level floor the entire rest 
of the 
> building drops that distance (usually between 10 and 30 feet) 
and the 
> impact is far far beyond what any structural materials or 
techniques could 
> manage.
> 
> Do this experiment.  Take a small (empty) coffee can and place 
it on the 
> flat ground.  Grab a golf club.  Now carefully stand on the 
can.  place 
> your full body weight on it.
> 
> Notice it carries the load gracefully....
> 
> Now tap the side with the golf club.
> 
> When the can fails the entire structure fails together.
> 
> The amazing thing is not that towers fell.  The aircraft 
should have taken 
> out enough structural members to cause the buildings to fall 
> immediately.  What is amazing is that these building stood for 
an hour 
> after the impact.
> 
> 
> 
> Charlie Ford
> 
> KC5-OWZ
> cjford1 yahoo.com
> cjford1 swbell.net
> 
>

That is because the structure was designed with the following
force equation plus MAYBE a factor of safety of 20 percent:

                  F = m [dV/dt]

All the standard design equations, including the differential
equation of the elastic line, Mohr's equations, etc, have that
as their theoretical base.  The equations break down when
forced to deal with impact loads.  Impact loads are different
from ordinary loads in that not only accelerations, but also
rate of change of accelerations and higher derivatives are
probably a factor [Davis Mechanics].
	The real equation for this kind of load probably
reads like this:

             F= m((dv/dt) + (c1[d^2v/dt^2) + (c2[d^3v/dt^3)...+ 
(c{n-1} [d^nv/dt^n]))

as can be seen, this resolves to an infinite series using the
Greek 'sigma' and appropriate sub and superscripts.  These
I can't conveniently do in this mail program yet, so compugeek
will have to do.  This particular infinite series has an exact
solution in the calculus, it has been a few years since I have
dealt with it.  The bottom line is, those poor souls were beaten
by more than those hijackers.  They did not have a chance.
You can see the same science at work when observing straws
driven through creosoted hardwood poles in windstorms, and
in trailer factories  with the impact nail guns used by workmen.

Standing Bear

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Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
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On Wednesday 03 October 2001 12:32, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Standing Bear wrote:
> 
> >The Bin Laden family builds towers like the WTC.  They
> >are building one right now in Beirut . . .
> 
> >   That crazy Osama bin Asshole is an engineer himself,
> >having gotten his degree in Jiddah in Saudi Arabia.
> >Correction, he is not crazy, but IS a monster.
> 
> That is an interesting point. I suppose the attackers must of 
known how 
> destructive the attack would be. Bin Ledan was supposedly 
behind the 
> previous attempt to blow up the building, which failed. I 
wonder how close 
> it came to success?
> 
> By the way, Mr. Bear, please try to refrain from using 
obscenities such as 
> "Asshole." That is bad form here on Vortex.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 
Jed,
	I know, but the one that I was referring to
fit that description so perfiectly well......

Sorry,

Standing Bear

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: carbon nanotubes for Case replicaiton?
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 17:26:40 -0700
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On Wednesday 03 October 2001 12:00, Jones Beene wrote:
> If any CF experimenters out there are considering an attempt 
to replicate
> the Case work, with or without ego enhancements, and/or any 
other work where
> Carbon of a specific geometric and spatial dimension is 
critical, this may
> be of interest.
> 
> See http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2001/10/01/rtr374308.html
> or from EVworld.com Update:
> 
> JAPANESE FIRM ANNOUNCES NANOTUBE BREAKTHROUGH
> Today, the Japanese firm, Nikkiso announced it had perfected a 
breakthrough
> in the commercial production of nanotubes, microscopic 
structures made of a
> special form of carbon.
> 
> The company claims that it has developed a method for mass 
production of
> this material for just $0.84 cents per gram. Currently, this 
material costs
> ten times the price of gold, which is why, despite its 
potential use in
> hundreds of applications, it has been slow to mature.
> 
> I intend on writing to them now to see if their nanotubes, 
like some of the
> others that have been featured in the Science press recently, 
have a radius
> (axial) of ~50 nm. This might be of interest to anyone who 
suspects that
> there is something special about the 27.2 eV energy "hole." 
However there do
> seem to be many companies with Nikkiso in the name - I think 
it could be
> this company Nikkiso-sundstrand: www.nikkiso-sundstrand.co.jp/ 
but I'm not
> sure.
> 
> ....One of the potential uses for nanotubes is as a low-cost 
medium for
> storing hydrogen...Scary thought... if the nanotubes did have 
the requisite
> energy hole, and if the corresponding theory were accurate, 
then any attempt
> to store hydrogen with them could potentially create a large 
bomb instead...
> 
> Jones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
Or maybe with a metering feed, an energy production device?

Standing Bear

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Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:31:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: carbon nanotubes for Case replicaiton?
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Jones
	The Hydrogen-Hydrogen bond is about 0.75 Angstrom. D2 presumably
is close to this, I don't have data handy. The C-H bond is about 1.10
Angstroms. See how many D2 you can pack into a circle of 6.88 Angstroms
radius, maintaining these separations. If the D2 is packed closer then
this, the repulsion forces grow quite large rapidly, and the configuration
becomes unstable. There are 40 C atoms in a unit cell of two layers thick
in a (10,10) nanotube arranged around the circumference with two C's on
the top layer, then two C's on the lower layer, and about a 120 degree
bond angle. The configuration keeps on alternating as you go around the
tube.

Hank




On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Jones Beene wrote:

> Hi Hank,
> 
> Thanks for setting me strait on the likely dimensions for these. I had been
> incorrectly remembering a "Physics News" article on the work of Yudasaka of
> NEC on nanotubes. In that case it appears that the length, not the diameter
> was 50 nm. (her typical size: 2 nm diameter, length of 50 nm).
> 
> I'm still scouring the net for durable natural materials with interior
> geometries of 50 nm. But, come to think of it, since it is resonance that is
> important here, a length of 50 nm might conceivably work - especially since
> (if nanotubes are highly electrically conductive, as one would suspect) they
> might also act as pre-tuned antennae for EM of that wavelength.
> 
> Got any idea how many D2 molecules would theoretically fit into a nanotube
> at say STP or, better yet, at what level of vacuum there would only be a
> single molecule in the tube, on average?
> 
> Jones
> 
> > Jones,
> > I have been theoreticaly working on Hydrogen storage in nanotubes
> > for a while. So far, I believe that the best storage chemists have been
> > able to replicate reliably achieve is about 15% by weight, Hydrogen to
> > Carbon in nanotubes. I believe that most likely nanotube to occur when
> > they are made is about a (10,10) single wall nanotube, although multiwall
> > nanotubes are quite common. The (n,m) nanotube would have a circumference
> about 1.44*sqrt(3)*sqrt(n^2+m^2+n*m) Angstroms, so its radius would be
> 1.44*1.732*17.32/2/pi=6.88 Angstroms(1 Angstrom = 10^-10 meters).
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 14:58:06 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: carbon nanotubes for Case replicaiton?
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 07:57:37 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  hank scudder's message of Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:58:08 -0700:
[snip]
>order it from. I think a single walled nanotube of 50 nanometers (500
>Angstroms) is very rare, and probably not available.
[snip]
How about a length of 50 nm?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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October 2, 2001

Vortex,

The Drudge Report lists a London News Telegraph news item of a huge
outbreak of the Ebola Virus outbreak near the Afgan/Pakistan border
among the refugees. That's it!
My imaginations tells me that the Bin Ladin, Iraq's Hussein connection
may lie with a virus laboratory supply (even Algeria) of the EbolaVirus
airborne tested among the refugees for effectiveness. Then comes the use
of crop dusters in the US. This would beat anything in human life toll
that the New York WTC Twin Towers took. I hope I am wrong.
I feel a chill run up my back.
I was wondering what strategies terrorists would take for maximum encore
effect on human life.
I guess for a Jihad, life is expendable of those of us identified to be
eliminated by martyrs.

-AK-

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: carbon nanotubes for Case replicaiton?
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 14:31:14 +1000
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In reply to  hank scudder's message of Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:31:14 -0700:

>Jones
>	The Hydrogen-Hydrogen bond is about 0.75 Angstrom. D2 presumably
>is close to this, I don't have data handy. The C-H bond is about 1.10
>Angstroms. See how many D2 you can pack into a circle of 6.88 Angstroms
>radius, maintaining these separations. If the D2 is packed closer then
>this, the repulsion forces grow quite large rapidly, and the configuration
>becomes unstable.
[snip] 
I suspect that EM forces between the H molecules and the tube itself
will complicate the picture considerably.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: carbon nanotubes for Case replicaiton?
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 14:33:26 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 03 Oct 2001 14:00:17 -0700:

>Hi Hank,
>
>Thanks for setting me strait on the likely dimensions for these. I had been
>incorrectly remembering a "Physics News" article on the work of Yudasaka of
>NEC on nanotubes. In that case it appears that the length, not the diameter
>was 50 nm. (her typical size: 2 nm diameter, length of 50 nm).
>
>I'm still scouring the net for durable natural materials with interior
>geometries of 50 nm. But, come to think of it, since it is resonance that is
>important here, a length of 50 nm might conceivably work - especially since
>(if nanotubes are highly electrically conductive, as one would suspect) they
>might also act as pre-tuned antennae for EM of that wavelength.
[snip]
There is another problem here too. The 27.2 eV is based on atoms of H,
not H2 molecules. It remains to be seen whether you would actually have
atomic (rather than molecular) H in a nano-tube. You might need one
partially filled with Ni, Pd etc. :)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  3 23:20:31 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnetism News from Hamburg university
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 16:19:49 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Hypercom59 aol.com's message of Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:23:29
EDT:
[snip]
>There you go with the "Domain"again.
>You are incorrect, the domain theory clearly states that; a cluster of atoms 
>produces a magnetic field of one Maxwell - which is equal to one magnetic 
>line of force. 

Reference please.

> Anyway - where within the domain theory is electron energy 
>listed as the root of magnetic energy and why in our early communications 
>were you so insistent that the Domain, and not the electron was the answer?

Both are "the answer". In as much as while the strength of the
individual atomic fields doesn't change, their orientation does. A
magnet is only a magnet when a majority of the atoms point mostly in the
same direction.
Within the large magnet you can have multiple small magnets, most of
which are working together, but with some working against the majority.
Those little magnets are the domains (i.e. the real definition of
domain, not domain as you miscomprehend it).

>Inversely, a cluster of 100,000,000 atoms of magnetically charged material 
>the size of "the old Domain" is historically supposed to produce ONE Line of 
>force.  

Reference please. Also note that according to modern physics there isn't
really any such physical thing as a line of force. It is really just a
mathematical convenience, and hence early physicists were free to choose
its magnitude as they pleased.
Which means that whatever mathematical quantity you may have come across
that was called a line of force doesn't necessarily correlate with your
mental image of such.

>If the electron truly is responsible, up to 200,000,000 vortexes of 
>magnetic energy (one exiting each atomic pole) - SHOULD be produced.  

200,000,000 is a number you dreamed up, but I agree that each atom is a
little magnet (actually some atoms can be multiple concentric (IMO)
magnets, if they have several unpaired electrons).

>The old 
>One Maxwell figure must be subcategorized to account for the finer energies 
>once not realized.
>
>Each atom produces the magnetic energy, NOT a cluster of atoms producing one 
>line of energy.  

There are no lines of energy. The line referred to in the definition of
the Maxwell is the mathematical convenience I mentioned above.


>The domain proclaims that a cluster of atoms is required to 
>constitute a DOMAIN 

Which it does, however the cluster can be as small as one atom.

>- However in my theory - EACH atom produces its own 
>projection and the cluster of atoms (however large) is simply called a 
>magnet.  

Your definition of a magnet corresponds perfectly with their definition
of a domain. The reason they call it a domain, and not a magnet, is
because in a real world magnet, not all the domains are necessarily
identically aligned. In a domain however, by definition, all the atoms
are aligned (though the alignment itself may not always be perfect).

>Asimov claimed better magnets were produced by starting off with 
>granules (not dust sized) smaller than what would constitute a domain.  This 
>clearly indicates a cluster of millions - if not billions of atom was once 
>thought to constitute a domain.  This is simply not true. 

This usually is true. Domains are frequently large enough that their
effects can be seen under a microscope.
(by "effects" I mean that you need something that converts a magnetic
field into an optical effect).

>My theory outlines each step, from the subatomic birth of the energy called 
>magnetism to magnetism's true structure.

Your theory is really fairly close to standard theory, not as you
understand it, but as others intend it.
[snip]
>they do Not converge on the nucleus.  The nucleus and the center of the 
>electron are two very different parts of the atom.

We will just have to disagree on this.

>
>>IOW what you saw was correct, but your interpretation was not.
>
>Feel free to take a look for yourself Robin, however "I am correct."

There are a number of trivially silly things in your theory, e.g.
"properties" are not radiated (if they were, the object would end up
losing it's property), and Avogadro's number, while useful for
calculations has no special significance here.
However, if there really is an aether, then your magnetic vortices may
actually exist.
OTOH, if electron shells were all to expand, increasing the pressure on
the atoms, then the material as a whole would simply swell up instead.
You can get an idea of how much, by looking at expansion under heating,
and comparing the average energy involved, with the energy required to
bump the electrons up to a higher shell.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 01:21:58 2001
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:21:57 +0100
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I'm not so sure that Josef Karthauser's email is OK. I had a big problem
downloading my email recently - I would receive the first three in the list
then nothing - The POP3 server would not carry on sending me my email. This
happened several times, meanwhile my waiting email was going up every day. I
solved it by ringing my ISP and getting them to manually delete the fourth
message in the queue from their end. The message was from Josef. There was
something about his messages that the ISP's server does not like.
    I have regretfully had to put his address into my killfile (the first
time I have had to use it)

Nick Palmer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 02:50:35 2001
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:50:04 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: Colin Quinney <crquin home.com>
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
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On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 09:48:54PM -0400, Colin Quinney wrote:
> Dear Josef,
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but I can't understand why Josef, you are
> posting your correspondence to Vortex via attachments. There are some folks
> on this forum who cannot read attachments, and then there are others who
> (for good reasons) trash them immediately without reading them.
> 
> Personally, I WANT to read what you have to say, but I do not read
> attachments unless they are first identified as being sent personally and
> *deliberately*, and secondly, placed there for a specific *reason*.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Colin Quinney

Hi Colin,

I hope you don't mind me replying via the list even though you sent
the mail to me privately.  It's possible that others on the list
think the same as you and I'd like to address them all together;
I'm assuming that you don't mind.

I'm sorry that my emails appear to look like attachments.  Please let me
assure you that it's nothing that I'm doing, it's a bug in your mail
package, which I'm guessing is Microsoft Outlook.

The problem is this.  When you send a normal email it is assumed that it
is a text message.  It never used to be possible to send attachments or
data in emails.  These had to be converted to text first and then
inserted verbatim into the 'body' (a technical work for the text of the
message - as apposed to the 'head' which is the header section, To:,
 Subject:, From:, etc).  Most people used a tool called 'uuencode' to do
this.

The next development was MIME, a mechanism for attaching data to email in a
structured way.  Here's a definition of that I found on the net:

    Short for Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions, a specification
    for formatting non-ASCII messages so that they can be sent over
    the Internet. Many email clients now support MIME, which enables
    them to send and receive graphics, audio, and video files via
    the Internet mail system. In addition, MIME supports messages
    in character sets other than ASCII.

    There are many predefined MIME type, such as GIF graphics files
    and PostScript files. It is also possible to define your own
    MIME types.

    In addition to e-mail applications, Web browsers also support
    various MIME types. This enables the browser to display or
    output files that are not in HTML format.

    MIME was defined in 1992 by the Internet Engineering Task Force
    (IETF).  A new version called S/MIME, supports encrypted messages.

Ok.

Here's the problem.  Microsoft aren't very good at following
standards.  It seems almost pathological.  Outlook currently has
at least two MIME problems.

The first is the one that's got Standing Bear upset, and that is
that the code that they use for parsing the MIME structure is buggy.
It isn't safe, and it is possible for someone to craft an email
that takes advantage of these bugs to make the Windows operating
system run arbitrary programs attached to the email.  This is _very_
_very_ serious.  Just looking at the To: and From: lines is enough
for the bug to trigger, i.e. just receiving an email that takes
advantage is enough.  You don't have to open it, it's already been
opened by Outlook to read the headers.

If you use Output and you've not updated it you _must_ do so ASAP,
or switch to a better mail client like Eudora (which is really good
and has a free version as well as a deluxe version - Eudora has been
around for years and years - pre 1992.  Outlook is a new comer.)
http://www.eudora.com/.

The second problem is the way that Outlook deals with S/MIME messages,
like mine.  With S/MIME attachments and body text can be encrypted
and signed.  It's totally backwards compatible with MIME.  If the
mail package doesn't support the S/MIME attachment it should just
treat it like a normal attachment.  If it does, and it has a
cryptographic application associated that understands the crypto
attachment then it can pass the data to it and have everything
nicely integrated.  The problem here is that Outlook doesn't follow the
MIME standard properly and makes assumptions.

Just quickly a description of the differences between encryption
and signing.  Encryption is the wholesale application of cryptography
to a MIME part.  Using Encryption I can make a part, or all of my
email, unreadable to anyone apart from those people who possess the
necessary crypto key.  This is security.  On the other hand signing
doesn't make the message unreadable, but instead generates a
cryptographically secure checksum of my message so that anyone with
my public key can prove that the message was written by me and that
no-one has tampered with it in any way.  By default I sign all
messages I send.  It means that I can't deny that I said things
later ;).  It should also make all of my mail permissible in a
court of law, and I can therefore make agreements with people in a
structured way over the Internet.

Here's the problem.  If I send an S/MIME signed message it's MIME
structure is different from a normal message.

Here's your message (the one I'm replying to):

    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/plain;
	    charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    [TEXT]

Here's a message with an attachment, actually from Jed a long time ago:

    Mime-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_966895588==_"

    --=====================_966895588==_
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

    I don't recall where I got this.

    - JR

    --=====================_966895588==_
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
    Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Von Neumann recording.txt"

    Von Neumann.au

    Hear von Neumann speaking at the dedication of the Navy's NORD computer.
    December 2, 1954.
    Digitized from a cassette tape provided by Dr. Goldstine.

    --=====================_966895588==_
    Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Von Neumann.au"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
    Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Von Neumann.au"

    LnNuZAAAABgAIDOuAAAAAQAAH0wAAAABQD9FQ0VDSEZDQ0tbbv/25+Hn3tDIwL/Dy9LY0snDv7/C
    xcPDxcnTelZVbtnNzdPlYVBLSUZDQ0VFQkJGRkVFS1JWUktGQkJJVWduYlhTU1z83tbT1tvk7evh
    2M/Lxb68vL69u7u/zOT55dLIxszfWUY+PkVMTktITmrbz9LebVBGQD4/Rk1NSENDSE5QT05MS0tO
    [cut]
    //l8dnxua2poa2pobnz/9/b89vH09vz//Pn37+Tc2dzi39/i6OQ=
    --=====================_966895588==_--


Notice how the headers define that the message is a multipart of
mixed type.  The first part is the normal body of the text, in fact
the first text/plain part.  The second text/plain is an attachment,
a text file.  The third part is a file coded in base64 (the newer
way of doing what we used to used uuencode for).  The boundaries
are randomly generated and can be anything that doesn't appear
anywhere else in the message.  All mailers that I know deal well this
this kind of email.

Here's an example of a signed email:



    Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5;
	    protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi"
    Content-Disposition: inline

    --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
    Content-Disposition: inline

    Hello this is signed.

    --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi
    Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
    Content-Disposition: inline

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD)
    Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

    iEYEARECAAYFAju8LF0ACgkQXVIcjOaxUBa3AgCfY1ZAMlksic3c0OR7BxvyDAZ3
    mtEAn3COdg5PYB3zz/Vdbrpfpn5AjWvO
    =Hax7
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi--


Notice that this time the Content-Type is multipart/signed instead
of multipart/mixed, and the encryption program is defined, also as
a MIME type.  In this case I'm using PGP.

The first part is the text of the message 'Hello this is signed'.
This is the part that carries that text of all the messages that I
send here.  The second part is cryptographic checksum of the first
bit of text.

The problem with outlook is that it mis-parses the 'multipart' bit
and assumes that because it doesn't know anything about 'signed'
messages that it will treat the whole email as attachments.  This
is in spite of the 'Content-Disposition:' which says that that part
can be viewed 'inline', i.e. within the mailer.  There's no excuse
for it.  The first part is a properly formed 'text/plain' part like
any other MIME encoded message.  It's a fault of Outlook that it
doesn't treat it as such.

There are two solutions.  Either get a version of Outlook that is
fixed in this respect.  To tell you the truth I've no idea whether
Microsoft even have one.  They don't respect other vendor's products,
unless it profits them, and they are quite content to blame everyone
else for their bugs.  The other, better IMHO (in my humble opinion),
is to get a proper email package by a company who concentrate on
Internet standards.  One such package is Eudora (URL mentioned
above).  They have been making mail packages for longer than there
has been a commercial Internet, at least in England (I used to bundle
their lite version with the software that we sent to our subscribers
when I ran a large ISP here).  There are other mail clients also.

I hope that this has sufficiently explained the problem.  I'm sorry
that it's causing problems for people.  I want my email to be taken
seriously and not ignored.  I won't however change my habits because
of a Microsoft bug.  Sorry :(.

Kind regards,
Joe

p.s. this message hasn't been sent signed so that everyone can read
it in the normal way. :)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 02:57:11 2001
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:56:58 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
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On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 09:21:57AM +0100, Nick Palmer wrote:
> I'm not so sure that Josef Karthauser's email is OK. I had a big problem
> downloading my email recently - I would receive the first three in the list
> then nothing - The POP3 server would not carry on sending me my email. This
> happened several times, meanwhile my waiting email was going up every day. I
> solved it by ringing my ISP and getting them to manually delete the fourth
> message in the queue from their end. The message was from Josef. There was
> something about his messages that the ISP's server does not like.
>     I have regretfully had to put his address into my killfile (the first
> time I have had to use it)

I've replied to Nick privately (using another email address) to ask him
to reconsider.  (I forwarded him my long email about MIME and Outlook
bugs).

Respectfully,
Joe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 07:01:38 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:01:01 EDT
Subject: Re: Magnetism News from Hamburg university
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 10/4/01 1:37:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:

 >Both are "the answer". 

Wrong

>In as much as while the strength of the
 individual atomic fields doesn't change, their orientation does.  A
 magnet is only a magnet when a majority of the atoms point mostly in the
 same direction.

NOT TRUE.  The point of the vortex Theory is that the Energy within the 
electron shells "increases" due to transfer of charge from an electromagnetic 
field, causing instant atomic alignment as magnetic energy is released from 
each atom, specifically from the electrons - "NOT" a simple alignment of 
atoms that always have the same energy.  The energy of the atom is not the 
same thing as the energy of the electron.

Case in point - a simple pulse of energy through an electromagnetic coil.  At 
rest all copper atoms are at the same energy, but when a singular pulse of 
electricity screams through the coil - the coil for "That" instant is 
"electromagnetic."  The atomic energy never changed - but the electrons 
jumped energy levels due to the electric surge. 
The amount of electromagnetic energy produced depends on "Voltage" up to a 
certain voltage level - showing, it is the effect of electricity traveling 
through the conductor, and the effect starts reducing at "skin effect" - high 
voltage levels. 

>Also note that according to modern physics there isn't
really any such physical thing as a line of force.  It is really just a
mathematical convenience, and hence early physicists were free to choose
its magnitude as they pleased.

There is a VERY specific meaning for a "line of force," the Maxwell unit of 
measurement.  They did not choose any ol' measurement they pleased.  Just 
look in any electric motor text book on the planet - no need from me to 
provide a specific reference when everyone is in agreement, "however wrong 
the old concept is."

>OTOH, if electron shells were all to expand, increasing the pressure on
the atoms, then the material as a whole would simply swell up instead.
You can get an idea of how much, by looking at expansion under heating,
and comparing the average energy involved, with the energy required to
bump the electrons up to a higher shell.

Thermal heat expansion and electromagnetic energy causing an electron energy 
level jump are NOT the same.  The magnet does not have to swell as the 
effects from atomic tightness CANNOT be translated to "thermal expansion", 
because they are two different properties.  The atomic swelling I mention is 
"within the barrier" normally between atoms.  When a metal is heated - 
swelling occurs because the distance "within the barrier" increases and it is 
represented in Historic texts as the atoms bouncing harder against each other 
as they vibrate faster, whereby causing physical swelling however slight. 

Prove to yourself that thermal heating and electromagnetic energy are 
different properties all together - check a neodymium magnet for holding 
power - then toss it in the oven for an hour at 400 degrees F - after it 
cools see if you rediscover the curie point effect.

Or even better yet - Take a lone coil of copper wire (not connected to 
electrical power) and put it in the oven next to the magnet - and see how 
much electromagnetic energy the coil produces under extreme heat.  If you 
think that's absurd - reread your last statement above.

Best Regards,
Chris

BTW - my New Technology "prototype" motor picture is posted at my webpage, I 
ask all electrical engineers to please inspect it and a movie of its 
operation should go up today.  It is still unlike anything in modern or 
historic texts - because it is NEW TECHNOLOGY.  You can clearly see the coils 
and commutator contacts.
http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 07:34:42 2001
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From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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References: <3BB224E3.11AAE8C1 bellsouth.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20011003114233.00aa8278@pop.mindspring.com> <20011003164735.O88863@tao.org.uk> <01100312530101.01207@tyrannosaur> <20011003182101.R88863@tao.org.uk> <3BBB4F71.ED3B51@bellsouth.net> <00b201c14cad$a51

Status: O
X-Status: 

8be80$e18f209a ggrf30j> <20011004105658.B72616@tao.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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Perhaps I'm behind the times and lucky, but I have had no trouble with any virus
and I can read all messages sent to me without fail.  I'm using a Mac running OS
7.6 with Netscape 4.0.  I would not touch anything made by Microsoft unless
nothing else is available.  Perhaps some of you might want to buy a cheap Mac for
use on the internet.  Only such action taken by many people will change how
Microsoft operates.

Ed

Josef Karthauser wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 09:21:57AM +0100, Nick Palmer wrote:
> > I'm not so sure that Josef Karthauser's email is OK. I had a big problem
> > downloading my email recently - I would receive the first three in the list
> > then nothing - The POP3 server would not carry on sending me my email. This
> > happened several times, meanwhile my waiting email was going up every day. I
> > solved it by ringing my ISP and getting them to manually delete the fourth
> > message in the queue from their end. The message was from Josef. There was
> > something about his messages that the ISP's server does not like.
> >     I have regretfully had to put his address into my killfile (the first
> > time I have had to use it)
>
> I've replied to Nick privately (using another email address) to ask him
> to reconsider.  (I forwarded him my long email about MIME and Outlook
> bugs).
>
> Respectfully,
> Joe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 08:00:23 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: virus
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	If you do not use browser based E mail...and only use ASCII
text.... like PINE as a partial example.... you will not have a virus
problem because no executable code can come to live with you uninvited.






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 09:27:31 2001
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: A. Takahashi interviewed by Newsweek
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Akito Takahashi, of Osaka National University, tells me that he was 
interviewed by a reporter from Newsweek just before the November 11 
catastrophe. A photographer took pictures of Takahashi and some of his cold 
fusion devices. They contacted him again, recently, and said they expect to 
run the article soon, probably the week of October 7.

I hope it is a good article. Some of these reporters sound sympathetic but 
they end up publishing highly biased reports, often based on what Huizenga 
or the DoE tells them.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 10:06:24 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: WTC Collapse Analysis
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:14:29 -0400
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Hi All.

Josef Writes:
>There are two solutions.  Either get a version of Outlook that is
>fixed in this respect.  To tell you the truth I've no idea whether
>Microsoft even have one.

I find it terribly funny that all the people who are
complaining about this problem AREN'T using microsoft products.

I'm using Outlook 2000, and it is obvious the messages
you send are digitally signed, even without opening the
email. The icon for the individual mail item shows a
letter with a seal on it. When you open it, it shows the
attachment as a dat file, and presumably with the PGP
add on software you could validate the sig.

Having set up key servers and sent and received encrypted mail with
outlook, I can tell you that it works just fine. If
you can recommend a better email client that supports
S/MIME for windows lets hear it; last time I looked ole
Outlook was the best. Given that you'd want to do more
than just that of course (smile).

For what it's worth, I seem to remember that the PGP stuff
was written before the S/MIME RFC's and do their own
squirrelly stuff. But I could be wrong here, I haven't
looked at any of this stuff for about 2 years.

I realize that in some circles it's very fashionable
to beat up on Bill, and hey, I do it myself from
time to time. But he's the devil I know, and I think
I have some right to. If you've never used the products
or the OS, then you don't have much basis to form
an opinion on, yes?

And in this case, it's pure paranoia that's driving
the truck here. In fact, when Standing Bear
responded to your initial email, the mime
header was right there at the top of the
response, loudly proclaiming

	Content-Type: application/pgp-signature;

I mean, do you have to be hit on the head
with a spiked club to get it???

Perhaps if you substituted the word
"Stanley Hammer" for "Microsoft OS" you'd see
how silly some of these rants sound. Like
"I believe in freedom so I only use Stanley
Hammers. No other hammer supports freedom."

I'm starting to sound like Dubya now, huh? (wicked grin).

K.





-----Original Message-----
From: Josef Karthauser [mailto:joe tao.org.uk]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 5:50 AM
To: Colin Quinney
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis


On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 09:48:54PM -0400, Colin Quinney wrote:
> Dear Josef,
>
> I don't know about anyone else, but I can't understand why Josef, you are
> posting your correspondence to Vortex via attachments. There are some
folks
> on this forum who cannot read attachments, and then there are others who
> (for good reasons) trash them immediately without reading them.
>
> Personally, I WANT to read what you have to say, but I do not read
> attachments unless they are first identified as being sent personally and
> *deliberately*, and secondly, placed there for a specific *reason*.
>
> Sincerely,
> Colin Quinney

Hi Colin,

I

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From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: PGP, S/MIME and Mailers [was Re: WTC Collapse Analysis]
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On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:14:29PM -0400, Keith Nagel wrote:
> Hi All.
>=20
> Josef Writes:
> >There are two solutions.  Either get a version of Outlook that is
> >fixed in this respect.  To tell you the truth I've no idea whether
> >Microsoft even have one.
>=20
> I find it terribly funny that all the people who are
> complaining about this problem AREN'T using microsoft products.

I'm not ranting Keith, just concerned.  This will be my last email
on the subject. (I _do_ use Microsoft products, but not for
everything.)

> I'm using Outlook 2000, and it is obvious the messages
> you send are digitally signed, even without opening the
> email. The icon for the individual mail item shows a
> letter with a seal on it. When you open it, it shows the
> attachment as a dat file, and presumably with the PGP
> add on software you could validate the sig.
>=20
> Having set up key servers and sent and received encrypted mail with
> outlook, I can tell you that it works just fine. If
> you can recommend a better email client that supports
> S/MIME for windows lets hear it; last time I looked ole
> Outlook was the best. Given that you'd want to do more
> than just that of course (smile).

Excellent.  That's the answer then.  Upgrade to Outlook 2000 or
higher and everything is dandy.  End of story.

> For what it's worth, I seem to remember that the PGP stuff
> was written before the S/MIME RFC's and do their own
> squirrelly stuff. But I could be wrong here, I haven't
> looked at any of this stuff for about 2 years.

PGP was, and it used to be common to embed PGP signature stuff
directly into the body of the mail message.  Of course since S/MIME
this practice has declined.  I believe that 'mutt', the mailer that
I use, was the first to implement S/MIME.  It's had it for a couple
of years now.

> I realize that in some circles it's very fashionable
> to beat up on Bill, and hey, I do it myself from
> time to time. But he's the devil I know, and I think
> I have some right to. If you've never used the products
> or the OS, then you don't have much basis to form
> an opinion on, yes?

I've got a lot to form an opinion on.  I ran the systems and support
departments of a large ISP for several years.  We supported Windows,
MacOS and Unix configurations across the thousands of customers we
had.  I won't bore you with the horror stories.

Now back to the original programme. :)  [One day I'll announce what
I'm up to ;)]

Kind Regards,
Joe

--9r3HF47jptiQlX4s
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
Content-Disposition: inline

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iEYEARECAAYFAju8nCEACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZ5ywCfb9Uk9OozhqvcQdK12WMarpyg
CCEAn0Iw7rnfhjBufOo2AjeiZGuzQG2M
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--9r3HF47jptiQlX4s--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 12:04:51 2001
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Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 11:58:15 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Cursory look into Chubb hypotheis
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Certainly no one should be too fussy about off-the-wall speculation, at
least not when it appears on a fringe science forums such as Vortex.

However, when such speculation appears in published journals, even if they
are fringe science journals, and over and over on the lecture circuit, then
such speculation deserves a closer and more critical inspection.
Unfortunately this has not been the case with the incredibly lame and
unsubstantiated speculation of Chubb and Chubb regarding what has come to be
known as "phonon quenching." Not only has it not been given much intelligent
criticism, but the original speculation has gotten widespread recognition
from a number of CF advocates who call it serious science and lately it has
even mushroomed into the status of a working theory for all of CF. Very sad,
and this is only because it supplies what is a bare minimum response to an
insidious problem that every former critic of CF has noticed right off the
top: "where are the gammas?"

Alternatively, the lack of intelligent criticism of the Chubb gobbelty-gook
can be traced to the fact that most of the former critics of CF, the ones
with some training in nuclear engineering, have given up long ago in
frustration at what they see as pathological science.  CF itself is not
pathological science, but some of the theories, like this one, which have
cropped up in support of it certainly come close to qualifying for that
ignominy.

Let's backtrack a little. Ed Storms has noted that "Helium-4 production in a
hot plasma by fusion is rare and always accompanied by 24 MeV gamma
emission. Absence of this radiation is a major reason why many people reject
this claim when applied to CANR. They fail to consider at least five other
reactions which result in helium without accompanying gamma radiation, as
listed in Table 2. Each of these reactions has a theoretical basis and, in a
few cases, some experimental support. Therefore, helium cannot be rejected
as a nuclear product just because gamma radiation is absent."

So far so good. And although Ed is correct on so many things, one problem
stands out almost immediately: the reactions that he suggests as
alternatives are also not exactly the specific issue here. The real issue is
"can any reaction, even if the reaction itself doesn't produce gammas,
transfer high energy to its surroundings (multi-MeV) and not produce
SECONDARY high energy photons. Secondary photons will also stick out like a
sore thumb when any multi-MeV particle or photon interact with surrounding
matter.

Even the most alluring of the possible gamma-less helium producing reactions
(that with boron: d + 10B= 4He + 8Be   8Be = 2 4He in which the boron can
appear as an impurity in Pd or specifically added) will produce helium
without gammas in the primary reaction, that is true, but the reactants
carry away enormous energy - and it is that secondary energy that we must be
concerned with. The lack of secondary radiation (medium-to-soft x-rays) will
apply to other reactions as well, like fusion of D with a metal, or even
neutron stripping of D leading to metal activation, followed by alpha decay.
If the radiation is there, the cost to a researcher to find and document it
is so low that it MUST always be looked for.

Very sensitive radiation detectors are now available at a cost of a few
hundred dollars. Some have a threshold in the low keV photon range. Of
course, soft x-ray spectrometers cost much much more, but you don't need one
to see if some level of high energy radiation is coming off a cell. Every
competent researcher, if he doesn't have a sensitive radiation monitor
capable of getting a signal from soft x-rays, has only himself to blame for
negligence because the cost is minimal, and it is only a small fraction of
the cost of calorimetry.

I cannot say with absolute certainty that medium and soft x-rays from
secondary interactions are totally absent from CF, but only if they are
present then somebody missed the boat, missed it big time, when they didn't
publish and promote this fact to the maximum. If you find even a low flux of
soft x-rays in CF, even in the low keV range, this is BIG news, because you
don't ever find these in chemical reactions. And this is HARD evidence,
unlike calorimetry.

This leads up to why the Chubb and Chubb model has received so much
unwarranted attention. Except for an even bolder and previously-rejected
speculation (i.e. ZPE) to explain the ultimate source of free energy it CF,
it has now come down to the predicament of the C&C model being about the
only thing out there that would give some avenue for belief that real
nuclear reactions could be taking place to explain excess heat.

But it is a model built on a house of cards that falls over with even the
minimum wisp of closer inspections. That inspection involves the
three-dimensional Bloch state and its inappropriate use in this instance.
These guys found a little soundbyte of crossover evidence that the Bloch
state can apply to more than electrons and then built up a house of cards
around this phony premise.

When you consider an electron traveling through a solid, it is sometimes
intuitive to consider it not just as a particle in the sea of electrons but
as a wave spreading out through the whole of the solid (the EM wave). The
quantum description of this spread-out electron was formulated by Felix
Bloch in the 1920s. Physicists have since sought to extend this idea of a
"Bloch state" to atoms in a crystal, but an atom's mass is so large (and its
equivalent wavelength so small) that a Bloch state for an atom has been
impossible to observe.

However, C&C picked up on a story that appeared a few years ago in which
physicists from Japan detected what they interpreted as signs of a Bloch
state for a muonium "atom," not a true atom but in effect a light isotope of
hydrogen whose proton is replaced by a positively charged muon particle
having 1/9 of the proton's mass.

Now first of all, it is arguable that what the Japanese researchers saw is
not an atom at all, but even if it were, the effect is tiny and only happens
at less that one degree above absolute zero. (Kadono et al., Physical Review
Letters, 2 August 1999.)

Enter C&C and suddenly an arguably fake atom at near absolute zero offers a
rationale to suggest that real deuterium nuclei at many hundreds of degrees
in a Pd matrix can act the in the same way ! They claim without a scintilla
of evidence that these D atoms can fuse because they too act as a wave and
when the deuterium concentration has achieved a critical value  the waves
have a period equal to the distance between the deuterium lattice positions,
thereby reducing coulombic repulsion.  Bizarro! and yet CF dilettantes are
quick to jump on the Chubb bandwagon since it is almost the only one in
town.

They continue " When occasional, fusion occurs, it does so in small steps
during D+-D+ wave overlap thereby producing a helium nucleus having
gradually increasing stability. The resulting nuclear energy is coupled to
the lattice by a coherent process involving transfer of energy in small
packets to the Fermi levels from which it is dissipated throughout the
lattice. The theory
predicts that a critical crystal size is required and no gamma or any other
radiation should be emitted. *However, the proposed particle-wave transition
has yet to be demonstrated to occur in a crystal lattice*

The last sentence is key. It is the only thing they got right.

For a ~24 MeV photon to be quenched in a phonon lattice, such that all
secondary interactions, such as Compton scattering go unnoticed, you would
have to quench the enormous energy of the single photon down, not in steps
but in several thousand independent but equally small radiating waves of sub
keV interaction ALL AT THE SAME INSTANT. This must occur in one single, not
several steps (because higher steps would be noticeably) - and furthermore
it must happen 100% of the time in this fashion (or else some signal would
appear on radiation detectors).

No thanks, Chubbs. I'll stick with ZPE as an explanation for most of the
excess heat in CF and challenge any Chubb apologists to have a go at that
subject as an alternative. There may be some real fusion going on in CF but
it either is so rare that it has gone undetected for this long - OR - else
there is another hypothesis out there that can explain it to us in ways that
this one has utterly failed to do.

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 12:49:21 2001
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:51:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: carbon nanotubes for Case replicaiton?
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Robin
	You probably have both. C-H bonds along the nanotube wall, and H-H
bonds for leftover H in the middle of the tube.

Hank


On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 03 Oct 2001 14:00:17 -0700:
> 
> >Hi Hank,
> >
> >Thanks for setting me strait on the likely dimensions for these. I had been
> >incorrectly remembering a "Physics News" article on the work of Yudasaka of
> >NEC on nanotubes. In that case it appears that the length, not the diameter
> >was 50 nm. (her typical size: 2 nm diameter, length of 50 nm).
> >
> >I'm still scouring the net for durable natural materials with interior
> >geometries of 50 nm. But, come to think of it, since it is resonance that is
> >important here, a length of 50 nm might conceivably work - especially since
> >(if nanotubes are highly electrically conductive, as one would suspect) they
> >might also act as pre-tuned antennae for EM of that wavelength.
> [snip]
> There is another problem here too. The 27.2 eV is based on atoms of H,
> not H2 molecules. It remains to be seen whether you would actually have
> atomic (rather than molecular) H in a nano-tube. You might need one
> partially filled with Ni, Pd etc. :)
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 13:58:42 2001
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Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 13:33:16 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: carbon nanotubes for Case replicaiton?
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From: "hank scudder" <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>

> > RvS: There is another problem here too. The 27.2 eV is based on atoms of
H,
> > not H2 molecules. It remains to be seen whether you would actually have
> > atomic (rather than molecular) H in a nano-tube. You might need one
> > partially filled with Ni, Pd etc. :)

> You probably have both. C-H bonds along the nanotube wall, and H-H
> bonds for leftover H in the middle of the tube.

Here's an idea. Sr can be easily hydrided with the hydride naturally
becoming a weak ionic bond.

If this molecule SrH2 is first gasified and then impregnated in carbon
nanotubes of length = 50nm; and then later irradiated with rf (at the freq
of the bond) you will have internally in the nanotube H+Sr--H+.

If that setup were to shrink, leaving an EUV photon which could be absorbed
/reradiated by adjoining tubes (if they are electrically conductive), then
you would be poised to have a self-reinforcing kind of feedback reaction -
very efficient.

Maybe Chase is getting something similar with the combination of Pd and the
type of carbon he uses, but of course he finds some He, doesn't he, so it
may be unrelated to this idea. What do you think?

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 14:21:49 2001
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From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
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You do meam 911?

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Akito Takahashi, of Osaka National University, tells me that he was
> interviewed by a reporter from Newsweek just before the November 11
> catastrophe. A photographer took pictures of Takahashi and some of his cold
> fusion devices. They contacted him again, recently, and said they expect to
> run the article soon, probably the week of October 7.
>
> I hope it is a good article. Some of these reporters sound sympathetic but
> they end up publishing highly biased reports, often based on what Huizenga
> or the DoE tells them.
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 14:48:44 2001
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Subject: Cymatics, Hans Jenny, and gravity
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Gentlemen;

   One of the fun activities that I know so many of us probably love and
obsess on are the vibrational patterns made in either powders or liquids
when stimulated acoustically - alternately known as Chladni patterns or more
recently, in deference to the late Hans Jenny, Cymatic patterns, or Jenny
patterns.
   One of the lesser known and enigmatic claims of Dr. Jenny was that when
certain tones or chords were used, and vibrating liquid media began to
assume a complex or substantial 3D form, these forms seemed to defy gravity.
When the test plate was tilted to beyond the critical angle for run-off, the
balled up or structured vibrating material would supposedly remain in place
at it's spot on the plate.  Turn the vibrations off, and the material would
start to run off.  Turn the vibes back on, and it would re-assume it's
geometry.
   I always wondered if this was true.  So yesterday, over lunch hour, I
hooked up a 4" speaker to a 10 watt signal generator, laid it flat on the
bench face up, and poured small amounts of powders into the cone.  The paper
cone is shallow, and has about a 1" diameter thin plastic bump or hemisphere
in the center, over the voice coil.
   Oh what messy fun!  The activating frequencies were all low, between 30
and 200 Hz.  At certain spots, the powders would explode into a dust storm
that would rain back into the center.  At other frequencies, the powders
would assume flower petal nodes that would pinch off or bunch up into
snowballs and roll up-hill toward the rim of the speaker.  At others, up
around 100 to 105 Hz, there would form a furiously roiling little ball of
powder at the apex of the small center plastic hemisphere.

   So I tried Jenny's claim. (Sort of - he claimed the gravity defying trick
for liquids or suspensions)  I tilted the speaker at about a 60 degree angle
from horizontal.  With enough power, the roiling little center
cluster/powder ball sticks to the center of the speaker bump!!!

HOWEVER...

   The roiling ball is in constant agitation, and the grains were constantly
spalling away.  As they fly off, they fall normally, and thus the little
gravity defying clump diminishes to a few specks and then nothing in about 3
or 4 seconds.  As it shrinks, it does stay put though.
   I look forward to playing with a larger speaker and liquids.
   Now I can imagine that there are likely several factors that might be
entering into this, making it a complex mechanism.  Among these would be
charges from collision, micro-pockets of high and low air pressure above the
vibrating surface, gyroscopic stabilization of spinning grains, etc.

   On the other hand, one ponders if some of the more recent theories about
basic domains in nature offer a clue.  One I have been catching wind of on
occasion is that instead of a duality in the universe of matter and energy,
there is actually a third or ternary domain or state - information/pattern.
What if one could take a quantity of matter, and apply information to it in
some special way, and find a coupling with the gravitational force?  Is this
what might be happening in complex vibrating systems of nano or micro
particles?

   Silly thoughts for a silly day.

NR




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 15:16:21 2001
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:08:07 -0500
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Subject: chemistry question
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I'm attempting to figure out how to dissolve what I assume is an Iron 
deposit in a sewer pipe. I can get water to slow drain through it, I 
put enzyme in the water and that didn't unblock it. I decided that 
acetic acid might unblock it. That made it worse. I'm limited in the 
chemical I can use because they have a septic tank which I don't want 
to poison. Any suggestions?
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 15:19:15 2001
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Take a bottle of coke, get the level of coke just right at the right pressure, then
striking the side of the coke bottle produces droplets of water that jump up.
(anti-bubbles)

It sure looks odd...

Nick Reiter wrote:

> Gentlemen;
>
>    One of the fun activities that I know so many of us probably love and
> obsess on are the vibrational patterns made in either powders or liquids
> when stimulated acoustically - alternately known as Chladni patterns or more
> recently, in deference to the late Hans Jenny, Cymatic patterns, or Jenny
> patterns.
>    One of the lesser known and enigmatic claims of Dr. Jenny was that when
> certain tones or chords were used, and vibrating liquid media began to
> assume a complex or substantial 3D form, these forms seemed to defy gravity.
> When the test plate was tilted to beyond the critical angle for run-off, the
> balled up or structured vibrating material would supposedly remain in place
> at it's spot on the plate.  Turn the vibrations off, and the material would
> start to run off.  Turn the vibes back on, and it would re-assume it's
> geometry.
>    I always wondered if this was true.  So yesterday, over lunch hour, I
> hooked up a 4" speaker to a 10 watt signal generator, laid it flat on the
> bench face up, and poured small amounts of powders into the cone.  The paper
> cone is shallow, and has about a 1" diameter thin plastic bump or hemisphere
> in the center, over the voice coil.
>    Oh what messy fun!  The activating frequencies were all low, between 30
> and 200 Hz.  At certain spots, the powders would explode into a dust storm
> that would rain back into the center.  At other frequencies, the powders
> would assume flower petal nodes that would pinch off or bunch up into
> snowballs and roll up-hill toward the rim of the speaker.  At others, up
> around 100 to 105 Hz, there would form a furiously roiling little ball of
> powder at the apex of the small center plastic hemisphere.
>
>    So I tried Jenny's claim. (Sort of - he claimed the gravity defying trick
> for liquids or suspensions)  I tilted the speaker at about a 60 degree angle
> from horizontal.  With enough power, the roiling little center
> cluster/powder ball sticks to the center of the speaker bump!!!
>
> HOWEVER...
>
>    The roiling ball is in constant agitation, and the grains were constantly
> spalling away.  As they fly off, they fall normally, and thus the little
> gravity defying clump diminishes to a few specks and then nothing in about 3
> or 4 seconds.  As it shrinks, it does stay put though.
>    I look forward to playing with a larger speaker and liquids.
>    Now I can imagine that there are likely several factors that might be
> entering into this, making it a complex mechanism.  Among these would be
> charges from collision, micro-pockets of high and low air pressure above the
> vibrating surface, gyroscopic stabilization of spinning grains, etc.
>
>    On the other hand, one ponders if some of the more recent theories about
> basic domains in nature offer a clue.  One I have been catching wind of on
> occasion is that instead of a duality in the universe of matter and energy,
> there is actually a third or ternary domain or state - information/pattern.
> What if one could take a quantity of matter, and apply information to it in
> some special way, and find a coupling with the gravitational force?  Is this
> what might be happening in complex vibrating systems of nano or micro
> particles?
>
>    Silly thoughts for a silly day.
>
> NR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 15:21:56 2001
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On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Akira Kawasaki wrote:

> The Drudge Report lists a London News Telegraph news item of a huge
> outbreak of the Ebola Virus outbreak near the Afgan/Pakistan border
> among the refugees. That's it!

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/04/wref04.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/04/ixhome.html

Maybe it's a good time to not be living in the city.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 15:50:24 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: A. Takahashi interviewed by Newsweek
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I managed to write "the November 11 catastrophe." Akira Kawasaki responded:

>You do meam 911?

Yes. I never could keep the months straight. It was a relief to learn 
Japanese, in which they are called "month one, month two, month three . . 
." and so on. Another thing I have never mastered is the number of days in 
a month. I was recently shocked to find this is already October. There is a 
poem to help keep this straight, but alas, I can only remember this 
version, which does not help much:

Thirty days hath September,
April, June and no wonder:
All the rest eat peanut butter,
Except grandma, who drives an old Buick.

What is worse, I often mis-remember the second line as:

April, May and no wonder . . .

Because May comes after April and it is my favorite month.

With things like this rattling around in my cranium, it is amazing that I 
manage to learn anything new, or keep anything straight. Recently, rather 
than trying to accomplish or learn anything of practical value, I have 
devoted several evenings to reading a middle school textbook for girls, 
published in 1932 in Japan. I am learning a great deal about ethics, 
literature, home economics, repairing paper screens, basic nursing 
techniques, and page after page of etiquette, such as how to put on shoes, 
and how to write an awkward letter asking someone to return a sum of money 
they owe you. (You talk about the weather, first, to set the right tone.) 
In short, I am learning what it meant to be "a good wife and wise mother" 
(ryousai kenbo) as they said back then. It is difficult to imagine how this 
information will ever be of use to me. I suppose this is the only method we 
have of travelling through time, and travel does expand the mind, they say.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 15:54:16 2001
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 15:56:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: carbon nanotubes for Case replicaiton?
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I'm in grad school, I don't get paid to think!

However, I doubt if the Sr-H hybrid would hold together in a vapor state,
I beleive it would disassemble int Sr and H.


On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Jones Beene wrote:

> From: "hank scudder" <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
> 
> > > RvS: There is another problem here too. The 27.2 eV is based on atoms of
> H,
> > > not H2 molecules. It remains to be seen whether you would actually have
> > > atomic (rather than molecular) H in a nano-tube. You might need one
> > > partially filled with Ni, Pd etc. :)
> 
> > You probably have both. C-H bonds along the nanotube wall, and H-H
> > bonds for leftover H in the middle of the tube.
> 
> Here's an idea. Sr can be easily hydrided with the hydride naturally
> becoming a weak ionic bond.
> 
> If this molecule SrH2 is first gasified and then impregnated in carbon
> nanotubes of length = 50nm; and then later irradiated with rf (at the freq
> of the bond) you will have internally in the nanotube H+Sr--H+.
> 
> If that setup were to shrink, leaving an EUV photon which could be absorbed
> /reradiated by adjoining tubes (if they are electrically conductive), then
> you would be poised to have a self-reinforcing kind of feedback reaction -
> very efficient.
> 
> Maybe Chase is getting something similar with the combination of Pd and the
> type of carbon he uses, but of course he finds some He, doesn't he, so it
> may be unrelated to this idea. What do you think?
> 
> Jones
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 15:58:32 2001
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Subject: Re: chemistry question
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I'm not a chemist, but I would try dilute HCl or H2SO4, which would
produce soluble Fe salts.

Hank



On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, thomas malloy wrote:

> I'm attempting to figure out how to dissolve what I assume is an Iron 
> deposit in a sewer pipe. I can get water to slow drain through it, I 
> put enzyme in the water and that didn't unblock it. I decided that 
> acetic acid might unblock it. That made it worse. I'm limited in the 
> chemical I can use because they have a septic tank which I don't want 
> to poison. Any suggestions?
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 16:37:39 2001
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Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 19:44:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: chemistry question
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	Dear Hank,


	the likelyhood of  Fe clogging your pipes is slim to none ....

	hair.... oils grease.... plastic hair clip or bottle cap...
carbonate build up....  
	big chunck of Fe... not  not  not....

	Enzyme takes a long time unde good conditions with OUT
disturbing.

	Have you tried professional mechanical work?  
	Pressure?


	Have you opened the outside drain to SEE where what is what???

	I will suggest strong phosphoric acid.... or strong HCl ... are
you using plain jane grocery store stuff?



On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, hank scudder wrote:

> I'm not a chemist, but I would try dilute HCl or H2SO4, which would
> produce soluble Fe salts.
> 
> Hank
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> > I'm attempting to figure out how to dissolve what I assume is an Iron 
> > deposit in a sewer pipe. I can get water to slow drain through it, I 
> > put enzyme in the water and that didn't unblock it. I decided that 
> > acetic acid might unblock it. That made it worse. I'm limited in the 
> > chemical I can use because they have a septic tank which I don't want 
> > to poison. Any suggestions?
> > 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 17:03:06 2001
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I have found that roots are the biggest
blocker of drain pipes...they will 
follow any dampness into the pipe....

Try using a snake....to clean it out...
can be rented just about anywhere...

hope this helps....

steve

John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Dear Hank,
> 
>         the likelyhood of  Fe clogging your pipes is slim to none ....
> 
>         hair.... oils grease.... plastic hair clip or bottle cap...
> carbonate build up....
>         big chunck of Fe... not  not  not....
> 
>         Enzyme takes a long time unde good conditions with OUT
> disturbing.
> 
>         Have you tried professional mechanical work?
>         Pressure?
> 
>         Have you opened the outside drain to SEE where what is what???
> 
>         I will suggest strong phosphoric acid.... or strong HCl ... are
> you using plain jane grocery store stuff?
> 
> On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, hank scudder wrote:
> 
> > I'm not a chemist, but I would try dilute HCl or H2SO4, which would
> > produce soluble Fe salts.
> >
> > Hank
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, thomas malloy wrote:
> >
> > > I'm attempting to figure out how to dissolve what I assume is an Iron
> > > deposit in a sewer pipe. I can get water to slow drain through it, I
> > > put enzyme in the water and that didn't unblock it. I decided that
> > > acetic acid might unblock it. That made it worse. I'm limited in the
> > > chemical I can use because they have a septic tank which I don't want
> > > to poison. Any suggestions?
> > >
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 18:05:12 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <16a.1e6f5e8.28ee6159 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 21:05:29 EDT
Subject: Video Clip of Patented New plasma motor now loaded
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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For everyone that has never seen a pulsed plasma motor run - I have loaded a 
video clip of the new prototype running. This is the basic commutator design 
as described within claim 14 of my US patent 6,271,614 - that will be of use 
in EV - cars, RVs Busses or golf carts. The plasma will be safely & 
separately contained within it's own sealed container.  With this "cool 
running" new technology - expect a minimum of 110% efficiency over 
conventional motors.

Please have any EE's or electrical motor technicians review this revealing 
clip. 

http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html 

Best Regards,
Chris Arnold

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 19:24:12 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 22:34:21 -0700
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If someone really wanted to virusize his surroundings, he
would not play by Queensbury rules.  His logilicious product
might as well proclaim itself as a green cheese machine from
Callisto......(too bad, not Callista).  The only reliable key
would be its size.  Virii are heavy, so to speak. 

And yes, the Bear does use some microjunk products in his
network.  His Mrs Bear is into genealogy, and uses windows
as that is all the mental challenge that she prefers to handle
on the way to her real goals.  Not only that, her machine
has to be able to accept cookies and javascript.  I tell her
machine is going to be like the village punchboard, pregnant
with virii from New Zealand to Burma to Novaya Zemla.  It
just cannot say no.  It cannot say no because it is Windows
with more back doors than a seive put their courtesy of
microsoft to be sold to their vendors and not documented
to us, the intended victims.  I only wish I could say this
was unwarranted paranoia, but sadly cannot.  I have played 
with windows for too many years before I discovered LInux;
taken apart too many files;  seen too many microsoft takeaways.
Also talked to too many independant programmers and network
specialists with decades of experience in the product.  One
man here locally, has told me that he will never recommend
XP to any customer of his, and if a customer specifically 
requests it, will isolate that machine from any other in his
shop to prevent digital contamination while checking it out
for that customer.  An example, XP's raw sockets
allowing malformed data packets to be used by this
system.  Could this be yet another back door?
		Remember that windows was once
IBM's baby when the two corporations were developing
OS/2 back in the 80's.  An acrimonious split amongst the
would be co-conspirators left each half with some of the
code from that project.  Microsoft came off with the better
half, as OS/2 never could handle sound well, and was slow,
and had a hard time with device drivers.  The fact that
IBM could not find developers to create applications for
it that made money was the economic end of that failed
enterprise.  Microsoft was really given the field on a plate,
as the original windows95 and 98 actually did run and keep
some of its promises, but at a price to customer privacy.
No other operating system vendor was able to match those
features at the time those operating environments were
introduced.  They did'nt even try.  Apple was too involved
suing its would be cloners and otherwise marginalizing itself
into a high priced curiousity sold as feature poor bargains
to schools and at gouging prices to all others.   Amiga
was a crashy joke, and Commodore's inept marketing
broke it.  

Standing Bear









On Thursday 04 October 2001 10:14, Keith Nagel wrote:
> Hi All.
> 
> Josef Writes:
> >There are two solutions.  Either get a version of Outlook 
that is
> >fixed in this respect.  To tell you the truth I've no idea 
whether
> >Microsoft even have one.
> 
> I find it terribly funny that all the people who are
> complaining about this problem AREN'T using microsoft products.
> 
> I'm using Outlook 2000, and it is obvious the messages
> you send are digitally signed, even without opening the
> email. The icon for the individual mail item shows a
> letter with a seal on it. When you open it, it shows the
> attachment as a dat file, and presumably with the PGP
> add on software you could validate the sig.
> 
> Having set up key servers and sent and received encrypted mail 
with
> outlook, I can tell you that it works just fine. If
> you can recommend a better email client that supports
> S/MIME for windows lets hear it; last time I looked ole
> Outlook was the best. Given that you'd want to do more
> than just that of course (smile).
> 
> For what it's worth, I seem to remember that the PGP stuff
> was written before the S/MIME RFC's and do their own
> squirrelly stuff. But I could be wrong here, I haven't
> looked at any of this stuff for about 2 years.
> 
> I realize that in some circles it's very fashionable
> to beat up on Bill, and hey, I do it myself from
> time to time. But he's the devil I know, and I think
> I have some right to. If you've never used the products
> or the OS, then you don't have much basis to form
> an opinion on, yes?
> 
> And in this case, it's pure paranoia that's driving
> the truck here. In fact, when Standing Bear
> responded to your initial email, the mime
> header was right there at the top of the
> response, loudly proclaiming
> 
> 	Content-Type: application/pgp-signature;
> 
> I mean, do you have to be hit on the head
> with a spiked club to get it???
> 
> Perhaps if you substituted the word
> "Stanley Hammer" for "Microsoft OS" you'd see
> how silly some of these rants sound. Like
> "I believe in freedom so I only use Stanley
> Hammers. No other hammer supports freedom."
> 
> I'm starting to sound like Dubya now, huh? (wicked grin).
> 
> K.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josef Karthauser [mailto:joe tao.org.uk]
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 5:50 AM
> To: Colin Quinney
> Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
> 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 09:48:54PM -0400, Colin Quinney wrote:
> > Dear Josef,
> >
> > I don't know about anyone else, but I can't understand why 
Josef, you are
> > posting your correspondence to Vortex via attachments. There 
are some
> folks
> > on this forum who cannot read attachments, and then there 
are others who
> > (for good reasons) trash them immediately without reading 
them.
> >
> > Personally, I WANT to read what you have to say, but I do 
not read
> > attachments unless they are first identified as being sent 
personally and
> > *deliberately*, and secondly, placed there for a specific 
*reason*.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Colin Quinney
> 
> Hi Colin,
> 
> I
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 19:28:16 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
In-Reply-To: <01100317205001.03031 tyrannosaur>
References: <4.2.0.58.20011003115641.0094f270 pop.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20011003112547.E88863 tao.org.uk>
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At 05:20 PM 10/3/01 -0700, you wrote:
>You can see the same science at work when observing straws
>driven through creosoted hardwood poles in windstorms, and
>in trailer factories  with the impact nail guns used by workmen.
>
>Standing Bear


For those non believers...  How about a wooden paint mixer piercing a 
cinder block without breaking the block.   Fort Worth spring of 2000.  I 
found it in the rubble at 7th & University and handed it to a TV reporter...

I will see if I can find a photo.




_________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 19:33:30 2001
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
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At 09:21 AM 10/4/01 +0100, you wrote:
>I'm not so sure that Josef Karthauser's email is OK. I had a big problem
>downloading my email recently - I would receive the first three in the list
>then nothing - The POP3 server would not carry on sending me my email. This
>happened several times, meanwhile my waiting email was going up every day. I


Just so you all know... There is a rather nasty little bug being handed 
around from server to server.  Your email may slow or even stop for several 
days as a result.  This has hit my workplace.  No permanent damage but it 
was rather annoying.



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 19:38:44 2001
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Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 21:46:25 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis
In-Reply-To: <3BBC65FB.2B561E8A ix.netcom.com>
References: <3BB224E3.11AAE8C1 bellsouth.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20011003114233.00aa8278 pop.mindspring.com>
 <20011003164735.O88863 tao.org.uk>
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At 07:37 AM 10/4/01 -0600, you wrote:

>Perhaps I'm behind the times and lucky, but I have had no trouble with any 
>virus
>and I can read all messages sent to me without fail.  I'm using a Mac 
>running OS
>7.6 with Netscape 4.0.  I would not touch anything made by Microsoft unless
>nothing else is available.  Perhaps some of you might want to buy a cheap 
>Mac for
>use on the internet.  Only such action taken by many people will change how
>Microsoft operates.
>
>Ed

Excellent option.  Another is to change your OS to Linux or FreeBSD or OS2. 
I have found that attachment to the Internet through a router (via DSL) to 
be a wonderful tool.  You can use any OS that offers TCPIP on the ethernet.


Although I haven't reached the end of the Internet yet.  I must be doing 
something wrong :-)






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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  4 20:08:12 2001
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Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 22:16:12 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: off topic:Ebola outbreak
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1011004151204.3764C-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <3BBBD55B.3BB8EF57 ix.netcom.com>
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At 03:12 PM 10/4/01 -0700, you wrote:
>On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Akira Kawasaki wrote:
>
> > The Drudge Report lists a London News Telegraph news item of a huge
> > outbreak of the Ebola Virus outbreak near the Afgan/Pakistan border
> > among the refugees. That's it!
>
>http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/04/wref 
>04.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/04/ixhome.html
>
>Maybe it's a good time to not be living in the city.

Not Ebola...   If you read the article you will find out it is 
Crimean-Congo Haemorrhagic Fever  (CCHF) and is a primary contact 
virus  (it must be injected or ingested)

The good news is that it does not spread to secondary victims.  The bad 
news is that it could be used to contaminate food.

Now a more comforting thought.  Whenever you have large movements of 
refugees you get an outbreak of something...  This was most likely a normal 
random outbreak exacerbated by the presence of the worlds most dangerous 
critter...   The misquote.

Chances are that the terrorists will blame us for it.




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  5 02:31:59 2001
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Hi All,

Risk of executing viruses with email increase considerably with html format. Players are script, java, activeX controls and hyper links, images and and anything be loaded from arbitrary servers. Cookies are also annoying and may be part of virus infection


s.

IT IS VERY HARD TO UNDERSTAND WHY SCRIPTS ARE ENABLED ON MAILS!

Are you writing mails to anybody with a Javascript or Visual Basic Script? No.
In my mailbox more than 50000 mails. Only web pages posted to me by spammers, and viruses and worms have script code in it. Others are totally free of script. There is no reason to enable script on email clients.

On Outlook Express there is a option to disable script and cookies on mail. 

On Tools - Options - Security, select "Restricted sites zone"

Then on Internet Explorer options, goto Security, Restricted sites, Custom level and check everything is disabled or higher security. That it.

No Java, no script, no cookies, no activex controls will be run on your mails. Still hyper links remain active but they not pose large risk rather than spammers can track on you.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  5 02:33:48 2001
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Message-ID: <00a601c14d7f$f55eca60$688f209a ggrf30j>
From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
To: "Josef Karthauser" <joe freebsd.org>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "Bettina Cosima Babeck" <106363.650@compuserve.com>
References: <20011004105554.A72616 tao.org.uk>
Subject: Re: [joe tao.org.uk: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis]
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:26:26 +0100
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Hi Josef,
              The reason you are in my killfile is because four separate
times I tried to download my email and each time the first three in the
queue downloaded as normal and then the server stopped. I could not retrieve
any more of my emails so I rang up my ISP and asked them what the fourth
message was and they told me it was from you "with attachments". They asked
if it was OK to delete it so I said yes. After that I logged on and
everything worked perfectly again. I made the logical inference that it was
your message that had caused the problem. Since putting you into my killfile
there has been no repeat difficulty. As it takes quite a long time to get
onto my ISP's helpline I am somewhat loath to give you another chance but I
will - if the problem reoccurs, back in the killfile you will go - it will
be lonely there because I have never used it before and don't want to use it
again.

Nick Palmer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  5 02:34:13 2001
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20011004122149.03853dd8 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20011004172949.0383a4b0@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Months of year
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:10:49 +0100
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Thirty days hath September,
April, June and November,
All the rest have 31,
excepting February alone,
which has 28 days clear,
and 29 in each leap year.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  5 07:24:27 2001
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From: "Matt Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Off Topic " I love Microsoft Bear.. "
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 07:24:40 -0700
Message-ID: <000c01c14da9$78c913a0$0201a8c0 bear>
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In response to Standing ( around looking paranoid ) Bear,
I have wrote this rave for MS.

I really dont care what you think about MS.

I dont care that everyone has scrips and web content in the mail that i get
sent.

I dont care if I get a nasty virus, I can FIX IT.

I dont care if some one wants to spend all their time looking for ways to
waste their time trying to hack my stuff (good luck).

Microsoft is the BEST Desktop software, with one and only one provision.
DONT RUN CRAP HARDWARE ! Get a good mobo,CPU and Videocard.
Have some fun playing 3d games on your full horespower system.
Thats WHY i buy Microsoft. I love to play GAMES.

3-d Gamers ( like ME ) are the ones  that have pushed the hardware
revolution. Otherwise you would still be running a 486. You Linux people,
thats all you need right? well have fun..

Jees , get a life.... Quit whining. In fact, if you dont own it, dont cry
about it....

Bear, if your machine has less than a 1 GZ cpu, its too SLOW!. You deserve
to have bad expierences with
Microsoft!!

Last but not least, If microsoft sucked so bad, how come they make so much
money, even with their software being the most stolen and copied stuff on
the planet ? Do you really think MS makes a dime in china, and yet, there is
Millions of PC's in China running MS.

If was so bad, why do people steal it ?

You are so lame bear when it comes to talking about computer tech.

Written on Windows XP Peview release 2 ( I bought for 9.99 from Microsoft )
with an Athlon 1 GZ CPU
512 MB pc 133 memory.
ATI raedon DDR ( top of the line at the time of the release )
DVD, CDRW, and about $10,000 in software that I OWN, all runninng on
WINDOWS.

>From Matt,
 the  Nemisis of Standing -confused- Bear






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  5 07:45:45 2001
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Message-ID: <01C14D72.493F4BE0.dequickert ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [joe tao.org.uk: Re: WTC Collapse Analysis]
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 07:49:30 -0700
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Nick, this occasionally happens with me also (Outlook 97). It did not 
happen with Joe's message, however. There are bugs in MS mail programs. It 
probably wasn't your ISP's server that stopped, but rather your mail 
program.

When this happens, I have found that if I subsequently get my mail using 
Eudora, that program will successfully retrieve the problem message, then I 
can return to Outlook (which I prefer for various reasons). That method may 
work for you (and others) - probably a better method than killing all mail 
from someone who appears to be technically astute?

Dan Quickert

On Friday, October 05, 2001 2:26 AM, Nick Palmer  wrote:
> Hi Josef,
>               The reason you are in my killfile is because four separate
> times I tried to download my email and each time the first three in the
> queue downloaded as normal and then the server stopped. I could not 
retrieve
> any more of my emails so I rang up my ISP and asked them what the fourth
> message was and they told me it was from you "with attachments". They 
asked
> if it was OK to delete it so I said yes. After that I logged on and
> everything worked perfectly again. I made the logical inference that it 
was
> your message that had caused the problem. Since putting you into my 
killfile
> there has been no repeat difficulty. As it takes quite a long time to get
> onto my ISP's helpline I am somewhat loath to give you another chance but 
I
> will - if the problem reoccurs, back in the killfile you will go - it 
will
> be lonely there because I have never used it before and don't want to use 
it
> again.
>
> Nick Palmer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  5 10:07:06 2001
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Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 13:06:24 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Months of year
In-Reply-To: <00a501c14d7f$f4523c60$688f209a ggrf30j>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20011004122149.03853dd8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20011004172949.0383a4b0 pop.mindspring.com>
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Nick Palmer wrote:

>Thirty days hath September,
>April, June and November,
>All the rest have 31 . . .

That's how it goes? Nothing about grandma and her Buick? How dull! I like 
my version better. I will grant, mine lacks utilitarian value, but I have 
computers, a desk clock and a wall calendar to tell me the date. Besides, 
the way I live, there is no significant unit of time shorter than a season, 
and my dreams and thoughts are mainly those of ages eons hence, and people 
yet unborn.

(That's partly a quote from "The Soul of a New Machine," to give credit 
where it is due.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  5 11:27:44 2001
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From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
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Akito Takahashi, of Osaka National University, tells me that he was 
interviewed by a reporter from Newsweek just before the November 11 
catastrophe. A photographer took pictures of Takahashi and some of his
cold 
fusion devices. They contacted him again, recently, and said they expect
to 
run the article soon, probably the week of October 7.

I hope it is a good article. Some of these reporters sound sympathetic
but 
they end up publishing highly biased reports, often based on what
Huizenga 
or the DoE tells them.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  5 11:39:37 2001
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October 5, 2001

Vortex,

Even if the  Takahashi interview by Newsweek appears -- in Japan, would it show
up in the American issue? Probably not.
I have seen too many differences in topics covered by different national or
regional editions by american magazines or newspapers.
I guess it has to be done this way to sell. Just as perhaps McDonald's may
offer a MacOctopus burger in Japan to draw in customers. Sell that in the US?
Tough going I think, even with the popularity of sushi. But then, it may work
eventually. Then we would grow concerned about them becoming  endangered  and
how intelligent and advanced they are among the boneless animals and so on.. I
ramble ---

-AK-

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Akito Takahashi, of Osaka National University, tells me that he was
> interviewed by a reporter from Newsweek just before the November 11
> catastrophe. A photographer took pictures of Takahashi and some of his cold
> fusion devices. They contacted him again, recently, and said they expect to
> run the article soon, probably the week of October 7.
>
> I hope it is a good article. Some of these reporters sound sympathetic but
> they end up publishing highly biased reports, often based on what Huizenga
> or the DoE tells them.
>
> - Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  5 11:57:57 2001
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I've been following Jed's exchanges with the "skeptics" on
sci.physics.fusion.

I've also been reading the AIP's Conference Proceedings 228, "Anomalous
Nuclear Effects in Deuterium/Solid Systems." 

It's pretty clear that the "skeptics" are a vast resource of ignorance.
I've never seen so many people offer a definitive view of something they
know nothing at all about. The general attitude is they'll admit the
existence of cold fusion when the AIP tells them that it's real.

Such people have no business in science. I guess they believe that they
must be right, thus they can offer any stupid argument.

Dr. Schultz seems to believe, as usual, that if an experiment conflicts
with theory, then the experiment must be wrong. I've been around the issue
with Schultz before on this. He actually attacked the scientific method
itself! 

The sorry things is, the other "skeptics" fair not much better. 

I'd rather discuss things like D/M ratios and load factors for positive
results, and other data that is lacking in the AIP 228.

I tried looking for Muller's "Metal Hydrides", but it doesn't seem to be
in the physics library. 

Anyone know what's up with the deuterium gas suppliers like Fisher
Scientific and VWR not selling deuterium over the web anymore?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  5 12:42:22 2001
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Message-ID: <3BBE0DB6.3E946F87 bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 15:44:54 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
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I wonder if Rumsfeld showed the Saudis some of those 5,000 new
energy patents sequestered by the DoD?

Stories like this *must* worry Middle Eastern oil producing
nations:

http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/12639/story.htm

Energy giant Shell prepares for end of oil era

NEW YORK - Big Oil must prepare itself for the end of the
hydrocarbon age as alternative energies win over consumers in
coming decades, chairman of world No. 2 energy firm Royal
Dutch/Shell said yesterday. 

Oil giants from the last century will have to look to their
laurels if they are not to be unseated as motorists move towards
hydrogen-powered vehicles, and renewable energies, such as wind
or solar power, emerge, Shell chairman Phil Watts told reporters. 

"One thing I am convinced of is that the next 50 years is not
going to be more of the same. An energy company had better make
sure it has the necessary expertise and knowledge," Watts said at
the launch of Shell's 'Long Term Energy Scenarios'. 

Shell has moved firmly into the same camp as fellow oil
supermajor BP, which has made vigorous efforts to carve out an
environmentally friendly public image. 

The world's No. 1 oil firm, Exxon, has by contrast concentrated
firmly on its oil and gas interests, and had little truck with
the environmental lobby. 

Shell has pledged to spend between $500 million and $1 billion in
the next five years to develop new energy businesses,
concentrating primarily on solar and wind energy. 

"There will be different sources of energy by the middle of the
century. It challenges what our portfolio will be," Watts said.
"I don't know if Shell will be transmogrified by it, but I
wouldn't like the opportunity to pass by default." 

OIL ON TOP 

Oil currently sucks up around 40 percent of primary energy use.
While that will fall to barely 25 percent by 2050, oil will still
be the top dog, above gas at 20 percent, according to Shell
figures. 

"We are going to have oil and gas for many, many years," Watts
said. "The internal combustion engine is not going to go away.
It's going to fight for its life. Under pressure the internal
combustion engine is going to develop." 

Automakers such as Toyota and Honda are already selling hybrid
cars which combine traditional engines with battery powered
motors. 

The vast markets of China and India are key examples of how
nations and energy firms alike will need to balance rapidly
growing energy needs with rising import dependence and
environmental effects, Watts said. 

Natural gas will initially pick up much of the slack as oil's
preeminence slowly wanes, Watts said. After that, the outlook is
far less certain as new technologies fight to establish
themselves. 

"We could see an evolutionary progression, the so-called carbon
shift, from coal to gas, to renewables, or possibly even to
nuclear," said Watts. 

"A second scenario explores something rather more revolutionary;
the potential for a truly hydrogen economy, growing out of new
and exciting developments in fuel cells and advanced hydrocarbon
technologies," he added. 

According to one Shell scenario, rapid growth in fuel cells from
2025 - which produce electricity from hydrogen and cut harmful
emissions - could shift the energy business dramatically away
from oil long before oil becomes scarce. 

Radical changes possible in the energy business means the old
order which dominated the last century such as Exxon, BP and
Shell itself cannot afford to assume they will dominate for the
next 100 years. 

"That would be a very complacent view. Longevity in corporations
is not the norm," said Watts. 

Oil companies will have to be more sensitive to environmental
concern, he added. "Companies are not charities but they do have
values," he said. 

Story by Andrew Mitchell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  5 13:51:10 2001
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Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:51:25 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Lots of mail arrived
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Mindspring sent me a sheepish note saying they goofed and held up a lot of 
my mail for a few weeks. Many interesting message appeared on Vortex, 
including some that I wrote myself. If someone sent me a message directly, 
and I did not respond, please send it again.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  5 14:05:08 2001
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Subject: Re: A. Takahashi interviewed by Newsweek
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Akira Kawasaki wrote:

>Even if the  Takahashi interview by Newsweek appears -- in Japan, would it 
>show up in the American issue? Probably not.

This was an American reporter, writing for the U.S. edition. Is there a 
Japanese edition? I hope they carry the story too.


>Just as perhaps McDonald's may
>offer a MacOctopus burger in Japan to draw in customers.

Takoyaki? Yum, yum! I expect they do sell that.


>. . . eventually. Then we would grow concerned about them 
>becoming  endangered . . .

Some fish are endangered, because they are hunted, not domesticated. Savvy 
environmentalists encourage people to domesticate and eat endangered 
species, because domesticated animals never go extinct. Domesticated shrimp 
and salmon are doing great. Too well. Feral domesticated salmon are pushing 
out wild species.

- Jed

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 17:24:51 -0700
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On Friday 05 October 2001 07:24, Matt Rogers wrote:
> In response to Standing ( around looking paranoid ) Bear,
> I have wrote this rave for MS.
> 
> I really dont care what you think about MS.
many use it and get used by it, like the precursor to Daikatana.

 
> I dont care that everyone has scrips and web content in the 
mail that i get
> sent.

yeah, I get it too, but don't get the Adware variety like 'gator'
check 'scumware.com' for a free checkup and get the program
'Adaware' from another site.  Think adaware maintains its own
site.

> 
> I dont care if I get a nasty virus, I can FIX IT.
> 

Not Magistr you won't unless you apprehend it in time
before it changes your CMOS and reboots you with
incompatible CPU voltages and bad monitor screen
refreshes (other files).  Magistr came from possibly
Chechnya and may have been penned by someone
with real malice in his soul, not like us who are really
caring for each other at heart.





> I dont care if some one wants to spend all their time looking 
for ways to
> waste their time trying to hack my stuff (good luck).


My network has several machines all running windows of
various types.  Main one runs Millenium as part of a double
booting system with SuSE Linux as the other one.  If you
do this, use two hard drives and keep one system on one
and the other one on the other.  I keep my hard drives in
removable trays to facilitate reinstallation of windows every
time it gets too crashy.....once every 6 months at the longest.
I do not put any personal info into a windows system as I 
know they are insecure, and only run games on them.

> 
> Microsoft is the BEST Desktop software, with one and only one 
provision.
> DONT RUN CRAP HARDWARE ! 

Ah, sooooo, yesss, like WinModems and WinPrinters and other
plug and play stuff that cannot function without windows.




Get a good mobo,CPU and Videocard.
> Have some fun playing 3d games on your full horespower system.
> Thats WHY i buy Microsoft. I love to play GAMES.
> 
> 3-d Gamers ( like ME ) are the ones  that have pushed the




I love games, and have a righteous collection of them.  If I had
all the money that I spent on them in the last few years I could
buy a new car!  One of my favorites is WarZone 2100 by a British
company now defunct called Pumpkin Software.  Another is
Earth2150 and the Moon Project.  Also like Max Payne, and
am looking for a better character program than ActorFX but
will learn it if I must for I have an idea for a total conversion
but need to model some terrorists like Bin Laden and Omar
the Barbarian [grin].  An old Doom fanatic, have moved on to
Half-Life and Rainbow 6 and add-ons.  Might do some level
creating for them too if Payne is too much of one.  Used to
program AutoCAD in C and autoLISP, so I think this lame
soul will survive.

For a main machine dualbooting Linux and MSMillenium, I use
a twin processor K7 type board with both ATAPI and ATA100
channels.  The processors are twin Athlon 1.4Ghz's with
1GB of DDR memory, 200GB of hard drive space over
4 hard drives, one CDRW, one CDR, and one DVDRW
drives for removable media, along with ZIP drives (250MB)
and floppies.  Also have a SCSI160 card with one of the
hard drives and the CD-R drive being SCSI along with
an HP-630 SCSI scanner.  Use an Nvidia GeForce3 DDR
with 64MB of video memory and a Soundblaster Live
MP3+ 5.1 audio card.  All of my hardware can use both
windows or linux.  None of it can only function under
windows.  Pretty good for Nvidia to have drivers for
their card for Linux so soon.  Creative was another
story, only got 'live' support last year.
  Long ago ran out of interrupts
for all the stuff I cram into computers.  That is one reason
why my windows used to crash so much.  That environment
was never meant to be driven as hard as I drive it.  In 
another age I would be a 'hot-rodder', but now this lame
soul will have to put up with the name 'hacker'.  Oh yes,
I use 100Mhz ethernet between the main and the other
four machines on this network including the windows
gateway machine.  Am building a beowulf cluster of linux
machines.  A failing shop sold some old pentium boards
cheap, so are using about fourteen of them to build a
linux supercluster with probably the power of a mini cray.
But then I'm just a lame old f___. 










 hardware
> revolution. Otherwise you would still be running a 486. You 
Linux people,
> thats all you need right? well have fun..
> 
> Jees , get a life.... Quit whining. In fact, if you dont own 
it, dont cry
> about it....
> 
> Bear, if your machine has less than a 1 GZ cpu, its too SLOW!. 
You deserve
> to have bad expierences with
> Microsoft!!
> 
> Last but not least, If microsoft sucked so bad, how come they 
make so much
> money, 


Bill gates bought his original MS Dos from a guy that had 
programmed an 8088 conversion of the original CP/M operating
system for the old Motorola 6502 machines.  He bought it
for 50000 dollars that he had inherited from his mother.  He
then peddled the use of it to IBM.  Through a series of lucky
accidents and the mistakes of others, his organization's DOS
became a 'standard'.  Given away free or 'appropriated' or
put on new machines bought legally, it became the predominant
operating system.  Windows was a joint venture like I described
in my last post, with IBM.  It was to be OS/2, but IBM got
hoggish and the two split.  We created this monster by
going with Microsoft in the face of a takeover attempt by
IBM in the 80's, but you were still in diapers when that fight
was going on....or maybe not even an itch in your father's
fancy.  We were loyal microsoft fans all, yeah even the Bear.
Clone computers were cheaper than IBM, and Dos 6.2 ruled.
Dos 6.2 STILL rules.....check under the hood of your windows
and you will find that underneath 'dos 7x' is really the heart
of old Dos6.2.
why do they make so much money now.  It is by strongarming
dealers and white box manufacturers.  Ask the Netscape
people what they think, or Judge Pennfield Jackson who
judged them guilty of anti-competitive practices.  Need I
go on.....








even with their software being the most stolen and copied stuff 
on
> the planet ? Do you really think MS makes a dime in china, and 
yet, there is
> Millions of PC's in China running MS.

Get to looking, in Szhenzen Province in the Peoples Republic
of China you will find millions of legal copies of Windows.  The
'Peoples Police' take a dim view of competition from people
outside the 'party'.  You will also find very little action taken
by Microsoft with respect to any real counterfeiting accusations 
against
the Chinese government in Chinese courts.  It is only against
the weak that Microsoft will fight.....the rest they will 'deal
with'.  Clinton was weak, having been elected in part by
Microsoft money.

> 
> If was so bad, why do people steal it ?
> 
> You are so lame bear when it comes to talking about computer 
tech.
> 
> Written on Windows XP Peview release 2 ( I bought for 9.99 
from Microsoft )
> with an Athlon 1 GZ CPU

good CPU

> 512 MB pc 133 memory.

well done

> ATI raedon DDR ( top of the line at the time of the release )

like Radion, but heard some stories about DirectX ver8 and this 
card.  Drivers for this from ATI are COOL!  allow overclocking!

> DVD, CDRW, and about $10,000 in software that I OWN, all 
runninng on
> WINDOWS.
> 

10 big ones is a very round number........you sure?


> From Matt,
>  the  Nemisis of Standing -confused- Bear
> 

I would pray thanks to God if the likes of you were all the
 'Nemisis"  that I would ever face in life.
   By the way, if you want to name call, spell them right:
   the correct spelling for it is           'nemesis'

Standing Bear
just another computer user who has hung around computers
so long he probably smells that way. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  5 17:47:58 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Oct 05, 2001
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 17:38:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 5 Oct 01   Washington, DC

1. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: SO WHY NOT JUST MAKE IT MAINSTREAM?  Any
physician entering practice today must deal with patients who use
alternative therapies.  Would it not make sense, therefore, for
medical schools to educate doctors about unconventional therapies
that their patients may already use? Georgetown University's (GU)
medical school is the first in the nation to announce it will
integrate information about such therapies into the curriculum,
but scientists are troubled. By definition, these therapies are
scientifically unproven; if they are proven, they cease to be
alternative.  The standard of proof used by proponents, however,
is often lax.  James Gordon, chair of the White House Commission
on Complementary and Alternative Medicine, directs the Center for
Mind-Body Medicine at GU.  Is there a mind-body effect?  Sure
there is.  I doubt if Gordon can increase women's breast size by
hypnotism, as he claims in his book, "The New Medicine" (WN 4 Aug
00), but just reading the book made me physically ill.

2. ALTERNATIVE PREGNANCY: YOU BETTER PRAY THIS STUDY IS WRONG.  A
study of in-vitro fertilization finds that women who have people 
praying for them are twice as likely to become pregnant from the
procedure as those who don't.  It was intercessory prayer, with
prospective mothers in Korea, unaware they were prayees, while
the prayers were women in the US, Canada and Australia who did
not know the women they were praying for.  The researchers were 
at Columbia, and also knew nothing.  Science Daily magazine
called the results "surprising," but that's much too timid.  We
can now expect studies on what sort of prayers are most effective
and to which god they should be directed, followed by lawsuits
against anyone who prays for pregnancies that turn out badly.

3. RANCID PORK: SLEEPING WITH THE ENEMY.  Two weeks ago, Mitch
Daniels, Director of the Office of Management and Budget, called
on the science community to pressure Congress to abandon science
earmarks (WN 28 Sep 01), that is, science programs that have not
undergone peer review or been requested by a science agency. 
Most earmarked funds go to projects in the districts of powerful
members of Congress.  We need an audit of what, if anything,
earmarks do to advance science.  The APS opposes earmarks
http://www.aps.org/statements/91.5.html.  But this week, former
Senator Bennett Johnston, now a lobbyist, urged scientists to
ignore Daniel's request.  It's only $2B, he snorted, and by
opposing such projects, scientists may alienate powerful
appropriators.  He described pork-barrel science as the price of
doing business.  The price of ignoring it is our integrity.

NEXT WEEK: SHOULD WE USE THE NUCLEAR THREAT AGAINST TERRORISM? 
We will get into the growing debate over the responsibility of a
super power in a world of unrestrained terrorism.
 
THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. 
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 09:43:51 2001
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oCTOBER 6. 2001

Vortex,

Yes, there is a Japanese language edition of Newsweek.

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Takoyaki? Yum, yum! I expect they do sell that.

Takoyaki  between a bun?

> Some fish are endangered, because they are hunted, not domesticated. Savvy
> environmentalists encourage people to domesticate and eat endangered
> species, because domesticated animals never go extinct. Domesticated shrimp
> and salmon are doing great. Too well. Feral domesticated salmon are pushing
> out wild species.

I wait for the day they doemesticate whales and blue fin tuna --- and
octopuses. I wonder how Alaskan Pollack would be handled -- and those sardines
that got fished out. Lets work on the abalone, detoxify oysters, revive the
clam population, fix the deformed halibut and other bottom fishes. You don't
see much of barracudas, bonito, sea bass. Yes there is trouble in River City
and 76 trombones aren't about to fix it.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 15:01:25 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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After getting consistent readings in the 0.1 to 0.7 millivolt
D.C. range indoors with the 1.0 Megohm resistor  using two different Radioshack
Digital meters with the higher readings significant near heavy objects (bricks) it was
decided to do a little field work. (outdoors that is).

In the semi-rural front yard the readings went up to > 3.0 millivolts when the
resistor-test lead ends were moved
rapidly in the horizontal or vertical directions.

Taking the show on the road the meter and resistor-leads
were lain on the seat and the meter indicated 0.00 millivolts at steady highway speeds
of over 100-125 Km/hour.

However, applying the brakes to generate a "g" or so of
deceleration would generate several tenths of millivolts.

Out on the Prairie near the Rio Puerco (where the Roadrunner and Coyote do their
thing) parked directly under a cross-country  power transmission line (120
kilovolts?)about 8 meters below it there was No indication picked up by the meter,
even though the AM
radio was going nuts.

Washboard roads and potholes that gave a vertical acceleration caused tenths of
millivolt readings.

Go Figure.   :-)

Regards,   Frederick

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: carbon nanotubes for Case replicaiton?
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 07:56:43 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  hank scudder's message of Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:51:33 -0700:

>Robin
>	You probably have both. C-H bonds along the nanotube wall, and H-H
>bonds for leftover H in the middle of the tube.
>
>Hank
[snip]
Hmmm..."real" C-H bonds would be just as useless as H-H bonds, and van
der Waals bonds between H2 and the wall would still imply H2 not H. In
order to get real H the nanotube carbon would need to have the same
catalytic properties as Pd etc.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 09:44:30 +1000
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 Oct 2001 16:00:57
-0500:

>After getting consistent readings in the 0.1 to 0.7 millivolt
>D.C. range indoors with the 1.0 Megohm resistor  using two different Radioshack
>Digital meters with the higher readings significant near heavy objects (bricks) it was
>decided to do a little field work. (outdoors that is).
[snip]
Hi Fred,

What happens when you hold the leads still but move the meter?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment

Hi Robin, you  wrote:


> In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 Oct 2001 16:00:57
> -0500:
>
> >After getting consistent readings in the 0.1 to 0.7 millivolt
> >D.C. range indoors with the 1.0 Megohm resistor  using two different Radioshack
> >Digital meters with the higher readings significant near heavy objects (bricks) it
was
> >decided to do a little field work. (outdoors that is).
> [snip]
> Hi Fred,
>
> What happens when you hold the leads still but move the meter?

Good question.

Hard to do with the leads coming out of the meter, but the results were about the
same.
But, with the leads removed and the 1.0 Megohm resistor
plugged into the lead receptacle sockets the meter was solid as a rock on the
millivolt and megohm scales.

Regards,   Frederick
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 18:47:28 2001
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Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 21:55:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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	Dear Fred,

	solid as a rock.... means what...solid da 2 volts.... at 10
volts... at zero volts???

	Help please to make clear to me I am confused by your text..

			J




On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 6:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
> 
> Hi Robin, you  wrote:
> 
> 
> > In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 Oct 2001 16:00:57
> > -0500:
> >
> > >After getting consistent readings in the 0.1 to 0.7 millivolt
> > >D.C. range indoors with the 1.0 Megohm resistor  using two different Radioshack
> > >Digital meters with the higher readings significant near heavy objects (bricks) it
> was
> > >decided to do a little field work. (outdoors that is).
> > [snip]
> > Hi Fred,
> >
> > What happens when you hold the leads still but move the meter?
> 
> Good question.
> 
> Hard to do with the leads coming out of the meter, but the results were about the
> same.
> But, with the leads removed and the 1.0 Megohm resistor
> plugged into the lead receptacle sockets the meter was solid as a rock on the
> millivolt and megohm scales.
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Robin van Spaandonk
> >
> > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> >
> > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> >
> 

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Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
Cc: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment


Hi John, you wrote:
>
> Dear Fred,
>
> solid as a rock.... means what...solid da 2 volts.... at 10
> volts... at zero volts???

Solid at 00.0  millivolts on the 300 millivolt D.C. setting,
and solid at 1013 Kilohms on the 3000 Kilohm range, John.

I also twisted the full length of the test leads to make a Twisted Pair of them with
the thought that this might cut down noise pickup.  It made the thing more sensitive
yet.  :-)
>
> Help please to make clear to me I am confused by your text..

Sorry John.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> J
> On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 6:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
> >
> > Hi Robin, you  wrote:
> >
> >
> > > In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 Oct 2001 16:00:57
> > > -0500:
> > >
> > > >After getting consistent readings in the 0.1 to 0.7 millivolt
> > > >D.C. range indoors with the 1.0 Megohm resistor  using two different Radioshack
> > > >Digital meters with the higher readings significant near heavy objects (bricks)
it
> > was
> > > >decided to do a little field work. (outdoors that is).
> > > [snip]
> > > Hi Fred,
> > >
> > > What happens when you hold the leads still but move the meter?
> >
> > Good question.
> >
> > Hard to do with the leads coming out of the meter, but the results were about the
> > same.
> > But, with the leads removed and the 1.0 Megohm resistor
> > plugged into the lead receptacle sockets the meter was solid as a rock on the
> > millivolt and megohm scales.
> >
> > Regards,   Frederick
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Robin van Spaandonk
> > >
> > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> > >
> > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> > >
> >
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 19:24:53 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cursory look into Chubb hypotheis
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 12:24:25 +1000
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Thu, 04 Oct 2001 11:58:15 -0700:
[snip]
>When you consider an electron traveling through a solid, it is sometimes
>intuitive to consider it not just as a particle in the sea of electrons but
>as a wave spreading out through the whole of the solid (the EM wave). The
>quantum description of this spread-out electron was formulated by Felix
>Bloch in the 1920s. Physicists have since sought to extend this idea of a
>"Bloch state" to atoms in a crystal, but an atom's mass is so large (and its
>equivalent wavelength so small) that a Bloch state for an atom has been
>impossible to observe.

Surely the very existence of the Mössbauer effect is evidence of this
(or at least of a one dimensional Bloch state)?


>
>However, C&C picked up on a story that appeared a few years ago in which
>physicists from Japan detected what they interpreted as signs of a Bloch
>state for a muonium "atom," not a true atom but in effect a light isotope of
>hydrogen whose proton is replaced by a positively charged muon particle
>having 1/9 of the proton's mass.
>
>Now first of all, it is arguable that what the Japanese researchers saw is
>not an atom at all, but even if it were, the effect is tiny and only happens
>at less that one degree above absolute zero. (Kadono et al., Physical Review
>Letters, 2 August 1999.)
>
>Enter C&C and suddenly an arguably fake atom at near absolute zero offers a
>rationale to suggest that real deuterium nuclei at many hundreds of degrees
>in a Pd matrix can act the in the same way ! They claim without a scintilla
>of evidence that these D atoms can fuse because they too act as a wave and
>when the deuterium concentration has achieved a critical value  the waves
>have a period equal to the distance between the deuterium lattice positions,
>thereby reducing coulombic repulsion.  Bizarro! and yet CF dilettantes are
>quick to jump on the Chubb bandwagon since it is almost the only one in
>town.

Simply put, QM effects like tunnelling become of importance when the De
Broglie wavelength is of the same order of size as the barrier width. In
the case of tunnelling, the De Broglie wavelength in turn depends upon
the *relative* velocities of the particles involved. In a lattice, this
is *on average* determined by the temperature of the lattice, however
the existence of the Mössbauer effect shows that there are exceptions
where many nuclei react (as in Newton's third law) as one. In this
particular circumstance, the velocities of the nuclei involved is near
zero relative to one another, and hence their De Broglie wavelengths
extend beyond the distance between them.

IOW hot fusion depends for its existence on reducing the distance
between nuclei to the point where it is less than the De Broglie
wavelength so that tunnelling may occur, while CF depends on increasing
the De Broglie wavelength to the point where it is greater than the
distance between the nuclei. In both cases, essentially the same
criterion is met, i.e. the De Broglie wavelength is greater than the
barrier width (as I see it).

>
>They continue " When occasional, fusion occurs, it does so in small steps
>during D+-D+ wave overlap thereby producing a helium nucleus having
>gradually increasing stability. The resulting nuclear energy is coupled to
>the lattice by a coherent process involving transfer of energy in small
>packets to the Fermi levels from which it is dissipated throughout the
>lattice. 

Now, suppose that there are two adjacent deuterium nuclei, momentarily
part of Bloch state. Suppose further that tunnelling occurs and as a
result all the nuclei (atoms if you will) forming the Bloch state are
separated into two opposing camps such that one set shifts left, while
the other set shifts right. These two sets of atoms absorb the energy of
the fusion reaction, converting it to charge separation energy
distributed across both sets of atoms (i.e. whole lines, planes, or
blocks of atoms literally move sideways slightly within the lattice;
probably lines, but I threw in planes and blocks for the hell of it).

The Mössbauer effect is asymmetric. Atoms move left, while a gamma-ray
moves right. The process described here, in contrast, is symmetric.
Atoms move both left and right. Consequently no high energy particle
exists, but instead multiple low energy stores are created concurrently.

This may not actually be the Chubbs theory, but it is what I thought
they meant ;)


>The theory
>predicts that a critical crystal size is required and no gamma or any other
>radiation should be emitted. *However, the proposed particle-wave transition
>has yet to be demonstrated to occur in a crystal lattice*
>
>The last sentence is key. It is the only thing they got right.
>
>For a ~24 MeV photon to be quenched in a phonon lattice, such that all
>secondary interactions, such as Compton scattering go unnoticed, you would
>have to quench the enormous energy of the single photon down, not in steps
>but in several thousand independent but equally small radiating waves of sub
>keV interaction ALL AT THE SAME INSTANT. This must occur in one single, not
>several steps (because higher steps would be noticeably)

I believe this is what I described above.


> - and furthermore
>it must happen 100% of the time in this fashion (or else some signal would
>appear on radiation detectors).

The process always happens this way, because the Bloch state which is
responsible for distributing the energy, is the very same mechanism
which brings about the fusion in the first place.

>
>No thanks, Chubbs. I'll stick with ZPE as an explanation for most of the
>excess heat in CF and challenge any Chubb apologists to have a go at that
>subject as an alternative. 

Do I qualify as a Chubb apologist? :)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 19:33:12 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 12:32:26 +1000
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 Oct 2001 19:03:41
-0500:
[snip]
>But, with the leads removed and the 1.0 Megohm resistor
>plugged into the lead receptacle sockets the meter was solid as a rock on the
>millivolt and megohm scales.
[snip]
No relative motion. When travelling in the car there was also no
relative motion. I think you've got a homopolar generator.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 19:36:21 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnetism News from Hamburg university
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 12:35:56 +1000
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In reply to  Hypercom59 aol.com's message of Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:01:01
EDT:

>In a message dated 10/4/01 1:37:14 AM Central Daylight Time, 
>rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:
>
> >Both are "the answer". 
>
>Wrong
>
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It annoys the pig, and it wastes your
time.

I give up.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 19:55:22 2001
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In a message dated 10/6/01 9:37:26 PM Central Daylight Time, 
rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:

> I give up. 

Good.

Chris

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment

Robin wrote:


> In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 Oct 2001 19:03:41
> -0500:
> [snip]
> >But, with the leads removed and the 1.0 Megohm resistor
> >plugged into the lead receptacle sockets the meter was solid as a rock on the
> >millivolt and megohm scales.
> [snip]
> No relative motion. When travelling in the car there was also no
> relative motion. I think you've got a homopolar generator.

Possibly, but you need a "magnetic" field and if you do the
numbers:

Volts = velocity x length of conductor x magnetic fiels strength. ( V = v*l*B)

Then volts = 2.0* 0.03*5.0E-5 = 3.0E-6

Not enough to account for 1.0E-4 to 2.0E-3 volts.

OTOH, the Acceleration/Deceleration Effect squares with
a homopolar generator in that the rim of the rotating disk is undergoing constant
acceleration.

Now you're talking General Relativity/Gravity Fields and
Time Dilation Effects.   :-)

Keep Talking, This Pig can Sing.  :-)

Regards,  Frederick
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 20:55:12 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 13:54:52 +1000
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 Oct 2001 20:58:19
-0500:
[snip]
>> No relative motion. When travelling in the car there was also no
>> relative motion. I think you've got a homopolar generator.
>
>Possibly, but you need a "magnetic" field and if you do the
>numbers:
>
>Volts = velocity x length of conductor x magnetic fiels strength. ( V = v*l*B)
>
>Then volts = 2.0* 0.03*5.0E-5 = 3.0E-6

I think you need to include at least part of the length of the leads.
If you have a turntable, try putting it on that, with the meter in the
middle, and the resistor at the edge. Also try just shorting the leads,
instead of using a resistor.

>
>Not enough to account for 1.0E-4 to 2.0E-3 volts.
>
>OTOH, the Acceleration/Deceleration Effect squares with
>a homopolar generator in that the rim of the rotating disk is undergoing constant
>acceleration.
>
>Now you're talking General Relativity/Gravity Fields and
>Time Dilation Effects.   :-)

Possibly.
>
>Keep Talking, This Pig can Sing.  :-)

Well at least I didn't have to teach you how.

BTW your email address has sneaked back into the "reply to" field while
you weren't looking. ;)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 21:56:58 2001
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Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment

Robin wrote:


> In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 Oct 2001 20:58:19
> -0500:
> [snip]
> >> No relative motion. When traveling in the car there was also no
> >> relative motion. I think you've got a homopolar generator.
> >
> >Possibly, but you need a "magnetic" field and if you do the
> >numbers:
> >
> >Volts = velocity x length of conductor x magnetic field strength. ( V = v*l*B)
> >
> >Then volts = 2.0* 0.03*5.0E-5 = 3.0E-6
>
> I think you need to include at least part of the length of the leads.

True , but that would make length "l" about 0.3 meters instead of 0.03 which makes V
about 3.0E-5 volts, i.e.,
about an order of magnitude above 3.0 microvolts.
> If you have a turntable, try putting it on that, with the meter in the
> middle, and the resistor at the edge.

You're getting back to the GR. Accelerated Frame Time-Dilation Effect where the
"Clock" at the perimeter of the turntable runs slower than the clock at the center
point.
Dig out your old LP record player and set a timer at the center and one at the
perimeter, let it run for a few days and check it out.  Acceleration = v^2/R on the
rotating
table.
>Also try just shorting the leads,
> instead of using a resistor.

Done that. You can't develop the voltages(electrostatic) with the lower resistances
with these accelerations.
>
> >
> >Not enough to account for 1.0E-4 to 2.0E-3 volts.
> >
> >OTOH, the Acceleration/Deceleration Effect squares with
> >a homopolar generator in that the rim of the rotating disk is undergoing constant
> >acceleration.
> >
> >Now you're talking General Relativity/Gravity Fields and
> >Time Dilation Effects.   :-)
>
> Possibly.
> >
> >Keep Talking, This Pig can Sing.  :-)
>
> Well at least I didn't have to teach you how.

Would you like to hear a few bars of "Waltzing Matilda"?  :-)
>
> BTW your email address has sneaked back into the "reply to" field while
> you weren't looking. ;)

I can't recall how to correct that.  Help!

Regards,   Frederick
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 22:22:56 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 15:22:33 +1000
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 Oct 2001 22:55:15
-0500:
[snip]
>>Also try just shorting the leads,
>> instead of using a resistor.
>
>Done that. You can't develop the voltages(electrostatic) with the lower resistances
>with these accelerations.
That's interesting, because a homopolar generator would develop the same
voltage irrespective of the resistance (It would just be harder to push
around).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 23:14:46 2001
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Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment

Robin wrote:


> In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 Oct 2001 22:55:15
> -0500:
> [snip]
> >>Also try just shorting the leads,
> >> instead of using a resistor.
> >
> >Done that. You can't develop the voltages(electrostatic) with the lower resistances
> >with these accelerations.
> That's interesting, because a homopolar generator would develop the same
> voltage irrespective of the resistance (It would just be harder to push
> around).

Bottom Line :-), V = v*l*B requires that the RPMs need be quite high, thus
acceleration v^2/R tracks this. My arm and the anti-lock brakes on my vehicle are not
competitive with a high speed rotating disk.Unless I had a microvolt meter, and could
shield the setup to eliminate the ~5.0E-5 Tesla Geomagnetic Field.

Regards,   Frederick
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 23:30:48 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 16:30:25 +1000
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sun, 7 Oct 2001 00:14:15
-0500:
[snip]
>> >Done that. You can't develop the voltages(electrostatic) with the lower resistances
>> >with these accelerations.
>> That's interesting, because a homopolar generator would develop the same
>> voltage irrespective of the resistance (It would just be harder to push
>> around).
>
>Bottom Line :-), V = v*l*B requires that the RPMs need be quite high, thus
>acceleration v^2/R tracks this. My arm and the anti-lock brakes on my vehicle are not
>competitive with a high speed rotating disk.Unless I had a microvolt meter, and could
>shield the setup to eliminate the ~5.0E-5 Tesla Geomagnetic Field.
[snip]
The other strange thing is that the input resistance of your voltmeter
(presumably electronic) should be way higher than that of the resistor
you are using, so the resistor should appear as a short anyway, IOW
shorting the wires shouldn't make any difference. 
This leaves me with two possibilities:
1) It is an artifact of the differential voltage of the op-amp inside
your voltmeter (size is about right), but that shouldn't be subject to
movement AFAIK. The meter does have a digital readout doesn't it?

2) It is indeed a weird field effect that depends on the material in the
resistor. Have you tried different types of resistor (i.e. different
materials)?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 23:34:58 2001
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Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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BTW, Robin.

If you allow that this effect is from a "Magnetogravity Field", if you turn it around
by spinning a Podkletnov Superconducting Disk, you should be able to modify the
Gravity Field around it.

Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  6 23:42:06 2001
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Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment

Robin wrote:


> In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sun, 7 Oct 2001 00:14:15
> -0500:
> [snip]
> >> >Done that. You can't develop the voltages(electrostatic) with the lower
resistances
> >> >with these accelerations.
> >> That's interesting, because a homopolar generator would develop the same
> >> voltage irrespective of the resistance (It would just be harder to push
> >> around).
> >
> >Bottom Line :-), V = v*l*B requires that the RPMs need be quite high, thus
> >acceleration v^2/R tracks this. My arm and the anti-lock brakes on my vehicle are
not
> >competitive with a high speed rotating disk.Unless I had a microvolt meter, and
could
> >shield the setup to eliminate the ~5.0E-5 Tesla Geomagnetic Field.
> [snip]
> The other strange thing is that the input resistance of your voltmeter
> (presumably electronic) should be way higher than that of the resistor
> you are using, so the resistor should appear as a short anyway, IOW
> shorting the wires shouldn't make any difference.

It does make a difference if you don't want to violate conservation of energy laws.
> This leaves me with two possibilities:
> 1) It is an artifact of the differential voltage of the op-amp inside
> your voltmeter (size is about right), but that shouldn't be subject to
> movement AFAIK. The meter does have a digital readout doesn't it?

Yes, both meters tried are digital readout.
>
> 2) It is indeed a weird field effect that depends on the material in the
> resistor. Have you tried different types of resistor (i.e. different
> materials)?

Yes.  Same results.

Regards,    Frederick
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  7 02:14:43 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 19:14:24 +1000
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sun, 7 Oct 2001 00:42:24
-0500:
[snip]
>> The other strange thing is that the input resistance of your voltmeter
>> (presumably electronic) should be way higher than that of the resistor
>> you are using, so the resistor should appear as a short anyway, IOW
>> shorting the wires shouldn't make any difference.
>
>It does make a difference if you don't want to violate conservation of energy laws.

You are correct, I stuffed up. What sort of voltage do you measure
across a 10 Meg resistor?
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  7 03:52:44 2001
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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 07:00:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject:  Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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	Dear Robin,



	About digits ....


	Some of the front ends of DVMS:


	OP AMP ...have bias currents

	D to A .. some are switched cap ...and they actually go 

	 switch-a- switch-a- ..and so forth....
	
	AND.... some of those do so back and forth with a reference
voltage ...so they are toggling back and forth....

	Ther real eye openers are to take a good ANALOG scope ... and tie
the front of a DVM to it and see what you get!


	AND.... tie and ananlog scope to a digitia scope... that always
makes me laugh....

	Tie a DVM to a CAP!!! .... and an analog meter in parallel.....
and watch the meter charge u the cap!  Or watch the scope charge up a cap!

	People are SO shocked.... I always ask them... What is the front
end?


		Anmd they say... oh.... it is REAL GOOD it cost XXX
dollars

	Now I am going to my cheapo JVC analpg scope ....and try my two
DVM...low cost ansd 14 dollars

		OK

	
	One meter is a TENMA 72-6255  V ohms amps inductance caps
frequency true RMS  dBel relative humidity, average ...it does not give
much noise and leads out 10 microvolts a minute.
	87 dollars demo...129 new...


	My ''low cost'' does V ohms diodes, amps, resistances...ANBD...
NPN and PNP Hfe readings!!! 14 clams! 9202  made by WARNING!! to avoid ...

	Reallly.... it has no mafg....If you ask it to read resistance it
yields the clock for the A-D which is a master 32.xxx K watch
crystal...which...i am guessing is so it can use synchronously detect to
toss 60 cps noise... but you can see it if you put the scope on the
leads....
	There is ...looks like.... about 200 meg ohm effective across the
A D ...which means it is like a radio reciever.... tieienf it to the scope
put a 3 volt p-p voise signal from a single filament lamp in a metal
fixture.... no fluorescents ...

	A good test:


	I hooked the 14 dollar to the 87 dollar.....SO:

	I am reading the 87 dollar Tenma:  

	A chart: when the 14 dollar "warning" is at different settings"

	
Warning
Setting		Tenma Reading
	
200VAC		.027 V DC
750VAV		Jumped up to .076 DC 
		back to
		.023
OFF		000
200uA		.004 vdc
diode		1.217  duh!
200 ohm		same	duh
200k		0.22v
20 v dc		.004
1000 vdc	.010

	NOW:  If I fool with the leads in any of this  ( all leads were
still during readings ... the signal might go to .010  or .087


	
if I put the Tenma on AC micro amps..... it reads 2 uA on the higher volts
settings and Amps settings.


	Next time I put batteries I will look up the A-D converters and
report on the Front ends.... and put the story to rest for my meters....

	My old TEK tube scope had... and this was cool... a 1 meg in a
paralle with a 20 pF.... just as it said on the panel..... and it had 6.8
k ohms going into the grid.... I think.....

	I just looked up an old 1UT tube...with a 1.4 volt filament a 500
millamps...... and...... it IS possible to run it a 9 volts on the plate
to cathode.... this is a pentode....

	I do have a 270 volt all solid state DC-DC converter.... SO....


	If any of you really want a tube electrometer..... let me know..

	I also have a mu metal shielded 3/4 inch diameter 3 inch long CRT
.... so if any of you want an electron beam magnetometer.... I DO have the
high speed photodetector and I am willing to leave to mu metal shield
on...or take it off... and if you want to make this into a scope or
spectrum analyser.. the deflection coils ar 16 ohms and 8 ohms/ you can
run them with IC audio amps... but the are set up for NTSC raster now and
amber phosphor for loe eye fatigue.... the guts  to a low light and mid IR
nigh vision....
	Happy to part with it, I can use the funds.  I have 6 of them.

I got them for 75 each.


					J 




On Sun, 7 Oct 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sun, 7 Oct 2001 00:42:24
> -0500:
> [snip]
> >> The other strange thing is that the input resistance of your voltmeter
> >> (presumably electronic) should be way higher than that of the resistor
> >> you are using, so the resistor should appear as a short anyway, IOW
> >> shorting the wires shouldn't make any difference.
> >
> >It does make a difference if you don't want to violate conservation of energy laws.
> 
> You are correct, I stuffed up. What sort of voltage do you measure
> across a 10 Meg resistor?
> [snip]
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  7 07:10:26 2001
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Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 17:10:50 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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(please ignore this ">" at the begining of the line. I cant remove it)

>From my initial experiments, I found probe cable alone is sensitive to movement.
I connected a 470K to probe end. I twisted cable then folded the twisted pair from middle and twisted the pairs again. see the diagram below.


 ______
|      | DVM (A)
| 0000 |  
|      |
|      |
|o___o_|  (C)              (D)
 \____\_____________________   
    ________________________|   Pairs twisted again
   /   /                 
  /   /
 /-R-/
  470 K (B)


DVM show less then 1mV when the DVM(A) and Resistor end(B) is fixed but cable(C-D) is moved.
As the length of the folded cable reduced to ~ 30 cm. I had to move the cable slowly in order to get slow DVM response. For these reason induction is quite low.


Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> After getting consistent readings in the 0.1 to 0.7 millivolt
> D.C. range indoors with the 1.0 Megohm resistor  using two different Radioshack
> Digital meters with the higher readings significant near heavy objects (bricks) it was
> decided to do a little field work. (outdoors that is).
> 

hamdix

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Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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----- Original Message -----
From: "hamdi ucar" <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment

Hi Hamdi, you wrote:
>
 > From my initial experiments, I found probe cable alone is sensitive to movement.
> I connected a 470K to probe end. I twisted cable then folded the twisted pair from
middle and twisted the pairs again. see the diagram below.
>
>
>  ______
> |      | DVM (A)
> | 0000 |
> |      |
> |      |
> |o___o_|  (C)              (D)
>  \____\_____________________
>     ________________________|   Pairs twisted again
>    /   /
>   /   /
>  /-R-/
>   470 K (B)
>
>
> DVM show less then 1mV when the DVM(A) and Resistor end(B) is fixed but cable(C-D)
is moved.
> As the length of the folded cable reduced to ~ 30 cm. I had to move the cable slowly
in order to get slow DVM response. For these reason induction is quite low.
>
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> > After getting consistent readings in the 0.1 to 0.7 millivolt
> > D.C. range indoors with the 1.0 Megohm resistor  using two different Radioshack
> > Digital meters with the higher readings significant near heavy objects (bricks) it
was
> > decided to do a little field work. (outdoors that is).
> >
Thanks for the information, Hamdi.

Regards,    Frederick
>
> hamdix
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  7 10:40:22 2001
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Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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Excellent experiment Fredrick. I want to congradulate you on making 
the best of found materials.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  7 16:01:09 2001
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: Question regarding BlackLight Power
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 19:03:33 -0400
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OK, Gentlemen;

   I continue to remain completely aloof from CF and hydrino topics, but for
one brief question I would like to address the august minds that are on the
list for one quick question.  This was posed to me by a PhD friend who is
wishes to remain anonymous.  He is following the Mills / BlackLight Power
story and wanted to know this:  he had heard that a couple of years ago,
BlackLight Power had recieved some considerable backing from an east coast
electrical utility.  Who was this utility company, if this can be divulged?
I searched the BLP website, but found only the list of calorimetry and test
resources. (although one of these was AECL - which I suppose might be sort
of a utility).

Anybody have any rumours or inuendos to share?  Thanks in advance.

NR

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	Dear Hamdi and Vo:


	If your INSULATION ...IS ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:


	PVC,
	Poly ethylene (PE)
	PE terpthalate, (PET)
	Poly Imide
	Poly Amide
	Poly Vinyl Lidene Fluoride.......or any and all of its cousins,
	    brothers, sisters, aunts, husbands, fathers, mothers or 
	    other halogentated compounds of the primary compound
	Or if any of the polymers listed above are used as co-polymers
         of one another and-or other halogentated compounds of the primary
		compound or compounds

	THEN:

	You stand a VERY good chance of the wire itself being capable of
		generating electric currents if one or more or any
		combination of the following action or actions obtain:


	1]	any self movement, bending, stretching, pushing and so on
	2]	and and impact
	3]	and any change in temperature

	4]	......if the cable has been subjected to a mederate to 
		  high voltage, ie, 30 to 150 volts, or more .....
		THEN:
	5]	Any and all exhibited currents can and probably will be 
		  greater.

	6]	ANY....dissimilar metal-to-metal connections can and
		  probably will exhibit small current generation.



	The effects, above, have been exploited over the years to make
sensors, to make test instruments, have been the subject of literally
thouseands or technical papersand reorts.  See IEEE Transactions on
various subjects, such as behaviour of dielectrics, metal junctions, and
searching will probably point you to some key terminology.


					J


On Sun, 7 Oct 2001, hamdi ucar wrote:

> (please ignore this ">" at the begining of the line. I cant remove it)
> 
> >From my initial experiments, I found probe cable alone is sensitive to movement.
> I connected a 470K to probe end. I twisted cable then folded the twisted pair from middle and twisted the pairs again. see the diagram below.
> 
> 
>  ______
> |      | DVM (A)
> | 0000 |  
> |      |
> |      |
> |o___o_|  (C)              (D)
>  \____\_____________________   
>     ________________________|   Pairs twisted again
>    /   /                 
>   /   /
>  /-R-/
>   470 K (B)
> 
> 
> DVM show less then 1mV when the DVM(A) and Resistor end(B) is fixed but cable(C-D) is moved.
> As the length of the folded cable reduced to ~ 30 cm. I had to move the cable slowly in order to get slow DVM response. For these reason induction is quite low.
> 
> 
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> > 
> > After getting consistent readings in the 0.1 to 0.7 millivolt
> > D.C. range indoors with the 1.0 Megohm resistor  using two different Radioshack
> > Digital meters with the higher readings significant near heavy objects (bricks) it was
> > decided to do a little field work. (outdoors that is).
> > 
> 
> hamdix
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  7 18:49:00 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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y

	Dear Fred,


	The "signal"  you are getting is probably from the insulation
flexure.... when you get more because you twisted it... this is the
give-away.

	You will have to change the header ....

	The magnetic part will have to go..right?  You tried a magnet and
that did not do the work.


	Now you will have to figure how to establish gravity has an
effect.....


	See if you can find some stranded copper wire and loosely wrap
your leads...or cut a strip pf metal screen and fold it over your leads
and use a stapler to fasten the screen.... AND.... also staple a stranded
copper lead into the "shield" ...you can use aluminum if cost is a
consideration, but your local hardware  store might sell you a 4 inch or
1/3 foot strip of copper or brass window screen...

	Let us know...


On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
> To: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
> Cc: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 8:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
> 
> 
> Hi John, you wrote:
> >
> > Dear Fred,
> >
> > solid as a rock.... means what...solid da 2 volts.... at 10
> > volts... at zero volts???
> 
> Solid at 00.0  millivolts on the 300 millivolt D.C. setting,
> and solid at 1013 Kilohms on the 3000 Kilohm range, John.
> 
> I also twisted the full length of the test leads to make a Twisted Pair of them with
> the thought that this might cut down noise pickup.  It made the thing more sensitive
> yet.  :-)
> >
> > Help please to make clear to me I am confused by your text..
> 
> Sorry John.
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> >
> > J
> > On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> > > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 6:44 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
> > >
> > > Hi Robin, you  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 Oct 2001 16:00:57
> > > > -0500:
> > > >
> > > > >After getting consistent readings in the 0.1 to 0.7 millivolt
> > > > >D.C. range indoors with the 1.0 Megohm resistor  using two different Radioshack
> > > > >Digital meters with the higher readings significant near heavy objects (bricks)
> it
> > > was
> > > > >decided to do a little field work. (outdoors that is).
> > > > [snip]
> > > > Hi Fred,
> > > >
> > > > What happens when you hold the leads still but move the meter?
> > >
> > > Good question.
> > >
> > > Hard to do with the leads coming out of the meter, but the results were about the
> > > same.
> > > But, with the leads removed and the 1.0 Megohm resistor
> > > plugged into the lead receptacle sockets the meter was solid as a rock on the
> > > millivolt and megohm scales.
> > >
> > > Regards,   Frederick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Robin van Spaandonk
> > > >
> > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> > > >
> > > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  7 19:53:24 2001
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Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 19:54:08 -0700
From: Michael <whuffo mindless.com>
Subject: RE: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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Don't forget "earth field"; the DC potential between the earth and the sky.
Its intensity varies; when it gets high enough it produces lightning, but
it's always present at some level and easily detected with a high-impedance
meter.

On a clear day, the earth field is 100V / meter or more.  If our
experimenters are grounding one probe and waving the other in the air, this
may be the source of their mysterious readings...

-----Original Message-----
From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman antioch-college.edu]
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 6:24 PM
To: hamdi ucar
Cc: vortex
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment






	Dear Hamdi and Vo:


	If your INSULATION ...IS ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:


	PVC,
	Poly ethylene (PE)
	PE terpthalate, (PET)
	Poly Imide
	Poly Amide
	Poly Vinyl Lidene Fluoride.......or any and all of its cousins,
	    brothers, sisters, aunts, husbands, fathers, mothers or
	    other halogentated compounds of the primary compound
	Or if any of the polymers listed above are used as co-polymers
         of one another and-or other halogentated compounds of the primary
		compound or compounds

	THEN:

	You stand a VERY good chance of the wire itself being capable of
		generating electric currents if one or more or any
		combination of the following action or actions obtain:


	1]	any self movement, bending, stretching, pushing and so on
	2]	and and impact
	3]	and any change in temperature

	4]	......if the cable has been subjected to a mederate to
		  high voltage, ie, 30 to 150 volts, or more .....
		THEN:
	5]	Any and all exhibited currents can and probably will be
		  greater.

	6]	ANY....dissimilar metal-to-metal connections can and
		  probably will exhibit small current generation.



	The effects, above, have been exploited over the years to make
sensors, to make test instruments, have been the subject of literally
thouseands or technical papersand reorts.  See IEEE Transactions on
various subjects, such as behaviour of dielectrics, metal junctions, and
searching will probably point you to some key terminology.


					J


On Sun, 7 Oct 2001, hamdi ucar wrote:

> (please ignore this ">" at the begining of the line. I cant remove it)
>
> >From my initial experiments, I found probe cable alone is sensitive to
movement.
> I connected a 470K to probe end. I twisted cable then folded the twisted
pair from middle and twisted the pairs again. see the diagram below.
>
>
>  ______
> |      | DVM (A)
> | 0000 |
> |      |
> |      |
> |o___o_|  (C)              (D)
>  \____\_____________________
>     ________________________|   Pairs twisted again
>    /   /
>   /   /
>  /-R-/
>   470 K (B)
>
>
> DVM show less then 1mV when the DVM(A) and Resistor end(B) is fixed but
cable(C-D) is moved.
> As the length of the folded cable reduced to ~ 30 cm. I had to move the
cable slowly in order to get slow DVM response. For these reason induction
is quite low.
>
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> > After getting consistent readings in the 0.1 to 0.7 millivolt
> > D.C. range indoors with the 1.0 Megohm resistor  using two different
Radioshack
> > Digital meters with the higher readings significant near heavy objects
(bricks) it was
> > decided to do a little field work. (outdoors that is).
> >
>
> hamdix
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  7 19:56:12 2001
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Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 20:55:02 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
Cc: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment

John Schnurer wrote:
>
> Dear Fred,
>
> The "signal"  you are getting is probably from the insulation
> flexure.... when you get more because you twisted it... this is the
> give-away.

Not so fast, John, the readings between locations under the same conditions vary too
much for that to be a conclusive factor.
>
> You will have to change the header ....

I'm surprised that you haven't done that already.  :-)
>
> The magnetic part will have to go..right?

When you get enough education to know what magnetism
is, we'll discuss it. Ok?


>You tried a magnet and
> that did not do the work.

That was a check to see if it was a Geomagnetic artifact.
>
>
> Now you will have to figure how to establish gravity has an
> effect.....

Done that, (posted earlier) but you must have missed it.
>
SNIP

Regards,   Frederick
>
> On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
> > To: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
> > Cc: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 8:55 PM
> > Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
> >
> >
> > Hi John, you wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Fred,
> > >
> > > solid as a rock.... means what...solid da 2 volts.... at 10
> > > volts... at zero volts???
> >
> > Solid at 00.0  millivolts on the 300 millivolt D.C. setting,
> > and solid at 1013 Kilohms on the 3000 Kilohm range, John.
> >
> > I also twisted the full length of the test leads to make a Twisted Pair of them
with
> > the thought that this might cut down noise pickup.  It made the thing more
sensitive
> > yet.  :-)
> > >
> > > Help please to make clear to me I am confused by your text..
> >
> > Sorry John.
> >
> > Regards,   Frederick
> > >
> > > J
> > > On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> > > > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 6:44 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
> > > >
> > > > Hi Robin, you  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sat, 6 Oct 2001 16:00:57
> > > > > -0500:
> > > > >
> > > > > >After getting consistent readings in the 0.1 to 0.7 millivolt
> > > > > >D.C. range indoors with the 1.0 Megohm resistor  using two different
Radioshack
> > > > > >Digital meters with the higher readings significant near heavy objects
(bricks)
> > it
> > > > was
> > > > > >decided to do a little field work. (outdoors that is).
> > > > > [snip]
> > > > > Hi Fred,
> > > > >
> > > > > What happens when you hold the leads still but move the meter?
> > > >
> > > > Good question.
> > > >
> > > > Hard to do with the leads coming out of the meter, but the results were about
the
> > > > same.
> > > > But, with the leads removed and the 1.0 Megohm resistor
> > > > plugged into the lead receptacle sockets the meter was solid as a rock on the
> > > > millivolt and megohm scales.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,   Frederick
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Robin van Spaandonk
> > > > >
> > > > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> > > > >
> > > > > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  7 21:04:56 2001
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: Question regarding BlackLight Power
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Nick Reiter said:

> OK, Gentlemen;
>
>    I continue to remain completely aloof from CF and hydrino topics, but
for
> one brief question I would like to address the august minds that are on
the
> list for one quick question.  This was posed to me by a PhD friend who is
> wishes to remain anonymous.  He is following the Mills / BlackLight Power
> story and wanted to know this:  he had heard that a couple of years ago,
> BlackLight Power had recieved some considerable backing from an east coast
> electrical utility.  Who was this utility company, if this can be
divulged?
> I searched the BLP website, but found only the list of calorimetry and
test
> resources. (although one of these was AECL - which I suppose might be sort
> of a utility).
>
> Anybody have any rumours or inuendos to share?  Thanks in advance.
>
> NR

That's easy, it was Atlantic City Electric company, which serves southern
New Jersey, now bought by Connectiv. Mills' early expectation was that with
the gas phase he could build toward replacing existing fossil fuel boilers
with BLP reactors. At one point the R&D effort was directed toward a
multi-kilowatt reactor that would serve shopping centers and small
utilities, as a stepping stone toward megawatt reactors for power plants. In
a time when oil is cheap, that is not an attractive route to take. In effect
it means that someone -- BLP or other -- would have to build a full scale
plant and operate it for a number of years to establish its characteristics
and reliability before any utility would rely on one.

When the hydrino hydrides appeared there was another path of potentially
very valuable chemicals whose production has  energy as a byproduct, or
small power plants which produced a valuable chemical byproduct. The current
R&D efforts are directed toward direct conversion from energetic plasmas to
electrical output, bypassing the inefficient thermal cycle. Progress is
being made, but no significant announcements have been made.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  8 03:04:37 2001
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Dear John,

Thank you for your input. I will try the exp with coil wires and with uncoated. But better is the car deceleration experiment where there is  no moving parts.

John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Dear Hamdi and Vo:
> 
>         If your INSULATION ...IS ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
> 
>         PVC,
>         Poly ethylene (PE)
>         PE terpthalate, (PET)
>         Poly Imide
>         Poly Amide
>         Poly Vinyl Lidene Fluoride.......or any and all of its cousins,
>             brothers, sisters, aunts, husbands, fathers, mothers or
>             other halogentated compounds of the primary compound
>         Or if any of the polymers listed above are used as co-polymers
>          of one another and-or other halogentated compounds of the primary
>                 compound or compounds
> 
[snip]

hamdix

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  8 03:41:11 2001
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Subject: Re: Question regarding BlackLight Power
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Mike;

Thank you very much.  I will pass this on.  I did note that on the list of
independent test facilities, that there was an "Atlantic Electric Inc."
listed.  When I tried to do a web search, nothing much came up, so I figured
this was a mom and pop electrical contractor or something, or a small UL
underwriter.  If this is actually supposed to read "Atlantic City Electric
Co., I ponder why the name was slightly altered.  Oh, well, no matter.
Thanks again.

NR


----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Carrell <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 3:01 AM
Subject: Re: Question regarding BlackLight Power



> > Anybody have any rumours or inuendos to share?  Thanks in advance.
> >
> > NR
>
> That's easy, it was Atlantic City Electric company, which serves southern
> New Jersey, now bought by Connectiv. Mills' early expectation was that
with
> the gas phase he could build toward replacing existing fossil fuel boilers
> with BLP reactors. At one point the R&D effort was directed toward a
> multi-kilowatt reactor that would serve shopping centers and small
> utilities, as a stepping stone toward megawatt reactors for power plants.
In
> a time when oil is cheap, that is not an attractive route to take. In
effect
> it means that someone -- BLP or other -- would have to build a full scale
> plant and operate it for a number of years to establish its
characteristics
> and reliability before any utility would rely on one.
>
> When the hydrino hydrides appeared there was another path of potentially
> very valuable chemicals whose production has  energy as a byproduct, or
> small power plants which produced a valuable chemical byproduct. The
current
> R&D efforts are directed toward direct conversion from energetic plasmas
to
> electrical output, bypassing the inefficient thermal cycle. Progress is
> being made, but no significant announcements have been made.
>
> Mike Carrell
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  8 04:36:41 2001
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Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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----- Original Message -----
From: "hamdi ucar" <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
Cc: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment

Hamdi wrote:


> Dear John,
>
> Thank you for your input. I will try the exp with coil wires and with uncoated. But
better is the car deceleration experiment where there is  no moving parts.

I think John has made a good point, Hamdi. Careful observation of  the  meter change
when the high side test lead is flexed or allowed to rub against the other lead shows
an voltage generated due to "triboelectric" effects or such.
A small as the movement is, even with the apparatus resting on the car seat, there is
a voltage generated with the slightest movement of the leads.

Regards,    Frederick
is flexed
>
> John Schnurer wrote:
> >
> >         Dear Hamdi and Vo:
> >
> >         If your INSULATION ...IS ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
> >
> >         PVC,
> >         Poly ethylene (PE)
> >         PE terpthalate, (PET)
> >         Poly Imide
> >         Poly Amide
> >         Poly Vinyl Lidene Fluoride.......or any and all of its cousins,
> >             brothers, sisters, aunts, husbands, fathers, mothers or
> >             other halogentated compounds of the primary compound
> >         Or if any of the polymers listed above are used as co-polymers
> >          of one another and-or other halogentated compounds of the primary
> >                 compound or compounds
> >
> [snip]
>
> hamdix
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  8 08:16:51 2001
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Subject: Fw: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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> Fred wrote:
> >
>
> > I think John has made a good point, Hamdi. Careful observation of  the  meter
change
> > when the high side test lead is flexed or allowed to rub against the other lead
shows
> > a voltage generated due to "triboelectric" effects or such.
> > A small as the movement is, even with the apparatus resting on the car seat, there
is
> > a voltage generated with the slightest movement of the leads.
> >
> > Regards,    Frederick
>
> Hey, Fred, John's explanation sounds good to me also.  I tried this
> experiment with a 734k resistor soldered across the sheath and center
> conductor of a 6 ft long coax cable - inputing directly into one
> channel of the oscilloscope.
> The scope was set for 5 mv per 1 cm division or about 1 mv per "tick"
> mark within the main division (5 ticks per cm).
>
> I clamped the coax near the scope, and the 734k resistor to the
> table top with the dead weight of 3 of my heaviest text books - so the
> scope input connector wouldn't move.  I also stuck the resistor and
> cable end under the books so they wouldn't move.
>
> The remaining loop of coax hung down limp toward the floor.  By just
> swinging the free loop of coax back and forth I could get the scope
> trace to bob up and down about 1 to 2 mv peak-to-peak.
>
> When I tapped the loop of coax against the chair leg, I could get
> acoustic-frequency pulses on the scope of about 40 mv p-t-p!!
>
> I like the triboelectric idea - this is exactly what it looked liked!
> Any movement that flexed or shocked the coax sheath against the
> polyethylene dielectric (I think) would result in a signal.
>
> You might also ask John if variations in the capacitance-to-ground
> of input leads of some amplifiers might result in input signals?
> This might be related to the "common mode rejection" characteristics
> of some amplifier circuits - but I think I like the triboelectric
> idea better...  I thought John might have some insight on this! :-)
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  8 09:31:08 2001
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Check out this URL, not only is the author talking about energy, he's 
talking about healing too.

http://www.keelynet.com/temp/vortex/vortex1.htm
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  8 09:33:06 2001
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From: Steve Krivit <STEVE DLSI.NET>
To: Nick Reiter <reit ezworks.net>, vortex-L <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Question regarding BlackLight Power
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:04:00 -0700
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I don't know about "East Coast" but one of the backers was Pacific Light and 
Power, from the NW USA I believe

 ----------
From: Nick Reiter
To: vortex-L; Steve Krivit
Subject: Question regarding BlackLight Power
Date: Sunday, October 07, 2001 7:03PM


OK, Gentlemen;

   I continue to remain completely aloof from CF and hydrino topics, but for
one brief question I would like to address the august minds that are on the
list for one quick question.  This was posed to me by a PhD friend who is
wishes to remain anonymous.  He is following the Mills / BlackLight Power
story and wanted to know this:  he had heard that a couple of years ago,
BlackLight Power had recieved some considerable backing from an east coast
electrical utility.  Who was this utility company, if this can be divulged?
I searched the BLP website, but found only the list of calorimetry and test
resources. (although one of these was AECL - which I suppose might be sort
of a utility).

Anybody have any rumours or inuendos to share?  Thanks in advance.

NR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  8 10:53:04 2001
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Subject: Takahashi not in this week's Newsweek
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We will keep looking. Articles like that can be pushed off several issues, 
since they are not tied to any particular news event. It may well still be 
published at a later date.

- Jed

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Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:59:09 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Cursory look into Chubb hypotheis
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From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

> >Physicists have since sought to extend this idea of a
> >"Bloch state" to atoms in a crystal, but an atom's mass is so large (and
its
> >equivalent wavelength so small) that a Bloch state for an atom has been
> >impossible to observe.

> Surely the very existence of the Mössbauer effect is evidence of this
> (or at least of a one dimensional Bloch state)?

Not at all! TheMössbauer effect is not in any way evidence of the Bloch
state. If anything, it does offer some explanation for one putative feature
(recoilless fusion) of "hot" D+D fusion, but that's a far cry from the Bloch
state.

Yes, one could suggest that in cold fusion there is evidence of expressed
energy without noticeable crystal recoil (as in the Mössbauer effect), but
so what? There should still be photon emission and there is not. Some claim
that the "hot" D+D reaction doesn't demonstrate significant nucleon recoil
either, but so what. You seem to be overlooking the major point that
RADIATION, measurable radiation, is the sine qua non of the Mössbauer
effect - and yet you want to apply that effect to a number of experiments in
which we are trying to explain the LACK of measurable radiation (or at least
lack of enough radiation to explain nuclear reactions).

Plus the Mössbauer effect is only a partial and a fractional effect that
does not relate to an entire crystal.

> Simply put, QM effects like tunnelling become of importance when the De
> Broglie wavelength is of the same order of size as the barrier width. In
> the case of tunnelling, the De Broglie wavelength in turn depends upon
> the *relative* velocities of the particles involved.

Not exactly. With nucleons, as opposed to lighter particles, velocity is
relatively unimportant in the overall picture as the mass component of the
equation overwhelms any slight velocity differences (in the de Broglie
equation, untill we get up to relativistic velocities)

> while CF depends on increasing
> the De Broglie wavelength to the point where it is greater than the
> distance between the nuclei.

Where did you come up with this? Since the deuteron mass doesn't change, you
can only increase its deBroglie wavelength by decreasing velocity, and even
at zero degrees K, it wouldn't be anywhere near the range you are
suggesting. And CF occurs at several hundreds of degrees K so the wavelength
of the deuteron is very short compared to the actual barrier.

> >but in several thousand independent but equally small radiating waves of
sub
> >keV interaction ALL AT THE SAME INSTANT. This must occur in one single,
not
> >several steps (because higher steps would be noticeably)

> I believe this is what I described above.
> The process always happens this way, because the Bloch state which is
> responsible for distributing the energy, is the very same mechanism
> which brings about the fusion in the first place.

Wrong. First, the Bloch state doesn't exist in solid matter. Period. And
secondly the Mössbauer effect is only a partial effect - a fractional effect
that does not relate to an entire crystal. Plus there is *noticeable
radiation* with the Mössbauer effect.

Let me be very clear on the lack of logic in this argument. You want to use
the Mössbauer effect as evidence of the Bloch state (in cold fusion
involving a loaded D-Pd crystal), but there is noticeable radiation with the
Mössbauer effect - and NO RADIATION with CF involving a loaded D-Pd crystal.
Moreover there is no other evidence - absolutely none at all, that the Bloch
state occurs in normal solids or at elevated temperatures.

I want to stress that CF is most likely a real effect - but that it is not
explainable in the context of either a traditional nuclear reaction or as
any high energy reaction that is somehow quenched by the crystal structure
of the reactants, unless there is some theory out there that provides more
than what the Chubbs have given us.

Like it or not, a modified ZPE theory, with or without using the hydrino as
the 4th
dimensional transfer agent, can still offer the best explanation of what is
going on in most, but not all, of the many hundreds of successful CF
experiments.

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  8 16:38:31 2001
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 00:38:13 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Months of year
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	vortex-l eskimo.com, Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@infinite-energy.com>
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On Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 01:06:24PM -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Nick Palmer wrote:
>=20
> >Thirty days hath September,
> >April, June and November,
> >All the rest have 31 . . .
>=20
> That's how it goes? Nothing about grandma and her Buick? How dull! I like=
=20
> my version better. I will grant, mine lacks utilitarian value, but I have=
=20
> computers, a desk clock and a wall calendar to tell me the date. Besides,=
=20
> the way I live, there is no significant unit of time shorter than a seaso=
n,=20
> and my dreams and thoughts are mainly those of ages eons hence, and peopl=
e=20
> yet unborn.
>=20
> (That's partly a quote from "The Soul of a New Machine," to give credit=
=20
> where it is due.)

Another easy way to remember is to use the knuckles on your hands.

If you hold your fists out in front of you, knuckles up, and place
your hands together you can count your knuckles and the gaps between
them.

Starting from the knuckle of the your left hand little finger, count
January, the gap between the this knuckle and the next is Feb, and
so on until you get to July on the index finger knuckle of your
left hand.  August is the first knuckle on your right hand, etc.
There are two extras after December for when we discover those
months ;).

Here's the cool bit.  The months on knuckles all have 31 days.  The
months between the knuckles all have 30 days, apart from Feb which
we all usually remember anyway.

Joe

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  8 23:08:36 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cursory look into Chubb hypotheis
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 16:05:44 +1000
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:59:09 -0700:
[snip]
>> Surely the very existence of the Mössbauer effect is evidence of this
>> (or at least of a one dimensional Bloch state)?
>
>Not at all! TheMössbauer effect is not in any way evidence of the Bloch
>state. If anything, it does offer some explanation for one putative feature
>(recoilless fusion) of "hot" D+D fusion, but that's a far cry from the Bloch
>state.
>
>Yes, one could suggest that in cold fusion there is evidence of expressed
>energy without noticeable crystal recoil (as in the Mössbauer effect), but
>so what? 

>There should still be photon emission and there is not. Some claim
>that the "hot" D+D reaction doesn't demonstrate significant nucleon recoil
>either, but so what. 

I hadn't heard this before, could you perhaps elaborate?

>You seem to be overlooking the major point that
>RADIATION, measurable radiation, is the sine qua non of the Mössbauer
>effect - and yet you want to apply that effect to a number of experiments in
>which we are trying to explain the LACK of measurable radiation (or at least
>lack of enough radiation to explain nuclear reactions).


It is the very narrow bandwidth of the associated radiation that is the
sine qua non of the Mössbauer effect, not the radiation itself.
That narrow bandwidth is a direct consequence of the rigidity of the
sub-lattice.
I don't really want to apply the Mössbauer effect itself, just the
rigidity of the dynamic sub-lattice that the Mössbauer effect proves
exists.

>
>Plus the Mössbauer effect is only a partial and a fractional effect that
>does not relate to an entire crystal.

That's ok, I don't need to apply to a whole crystal anyway.

>
>> Simply put, QM effects like tunnelling become of importance when the De
>> Broglie wavelength is of the same order of size as the barrier width. In
>> the case of tunnelling, the De Broglie wavelength in turn depends upon
>> the *relative* velocities of the particles involved.
>
>Not exactly. With nucleons, as opposed to lighter particles, velocity is
>relatively unimportant in the overall picture as the mass component of the
>equation overwhelms any slight velocity differences (in the de Broglie
>equation, untill we get up to relativistic velocities)

It would, unless we were talking about extremely low *relative*
velocities, and that happens to be precisely the case in a rigid
sub-lattice. Relative kinetic energies which may be as low as 1E-10 eV,
which would yield a De Broglie wavelength for D of about 2E4 Å.

>
>> while CF depends on increasing
>> the De Broglie wavelength to the point where it is greater than the
>> distance between the nuclei.
>
>Where did you come up with this? Since the deuteron mass doesn't change, you
>can only increase its deBroglie wavelength by decreasing velocity, 

...and that's exactly what happens.

>and even
>at zero degrees K, it wouldn't be anywhere near the range you are
>suggesting. 

The temperature of the lattice as a whole is irrelevant. The effect
doesn't depend on the velocity of the particles relative to the lab
frame, but only on their velocity relative to one another. The important
thing is that they be moving *in sync*, not randomly, relative to one
another.


>And CF occurs at several hundreds of degrees K so the wavelength
>of the deuteron is very short compared to the actual barrier.

When they move in sync, their wavelength is much greater than the
lattice spacing. This synchronous motion is precisely the difference
between fusion in a lattice, and fusion in a free plasma.

>
>> >but in several thousand independent but equally small radiating waves of
>sub
>> >keV interaction ALL AT THE SAME INSTANT. This must occur in one single,
>not
>> >several steps (because higher steps would be noticeably)
>
>> I believe this is what I described above.
>> The process always happens this way, because the Bloch state which is
>> responsible for distributing the energy, is the very same mechanism
>> which brings about the fusion in the first place.
>
>Wrong. First, the Bloch state doesn't exist in solid matter. Period. 

Perhaps I have misunderstood what a Bloch state was. I thought the
lowest energy Bloch state (for nuclei) would correspond to the rigid
sub-lattice I was referring to above.

>And
>secondly the Mössbauer effect is only a partial effect - a fractional effect
>that does not relate to an entire crystal. Plus there is *noticeable
>radiation* with the Mössbauer effect.

Granted, but then I'm not interested in the radiative part of the
Mössbauer effect, just the rigid sub-lattice that it depends upon for
it's existence. As far as I'm concerned the Mössbauer effect is just
proof that the rigid sub-lattice exists, not a requisite part of the
mechanism of CF.

>
>Let me be very clear on the lack of logic in this argument. You want to use
>the Mössbauer effect as evidence of the Bloch state (in cold fusion
>involving a loaded D-Pd crystal), but there is noticeable radiation with the
>Mössbauer effect - and NO RADIATION with CF involving a loaded D-Pd crystal.

As to no radiation from the reaction, consider the possibility that the
rigid sub-lattice divides into two rigid sub-lattices at the moment of
the reaction, as a consequence of the reaction itself. The two halves
separate, each carrying half the energy, and equal and opposite momenta.
Net momentum is zero, the energy is distributed instantaneously
throughout the two sub-latticies, in the form of multiple charge
separations.

>Moreover there is no other evidence - absolutely none at all, that the Bloch
>state occurs in normal solids or at elevated temperatures.

If have misunderstood the nature of a Bloch state, then so be it.

>
>I want to stress that CF is most likely a real effect - but that it is not
>explainable in the context of either a traditional nuclear reaction or as
>any high energy reaction that is somehow quenched by the crystal structure
>of the reactants, unless there is some theory out there that provides more
>than what the Chubbs have given us.

I thought that what I have described above agreed with the Chubb's
theory, but perhaps I misunderstood them too.

>
>Like it or not, a modified ZPE theory, with or without using the hydrino as
>the 4th
>dimensional transfer agent, can still offer the best explanation of what is
>going on in most, but not all, of the many hundreds of successful CF
>experiments.
>
>Jones
I'm quite happy to accept that it may be an explanation, but personally,
I don't believe it is the most likely one (but that's just personal
preference).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  9 07:47:34 2001
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Message-ID: <3BC30E13.3A428640 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 17:47:47 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fran De Aquino's Photoluminescent paper updated.
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 Hi,

Fran De Aquino's "A Possibility of Control of Gravity in Photoluminescence Materials" paper is
updated. http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0109060

Nick, can you weight a compact florescent tube with your precision balance?

Outdoor lighting high pressure mercury lamps are  strong UV emitter if the outer glass is removed.
So hanging the lamp above the balance pane containing piece of outer glass coated with the powder could be tested.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  9 09:57:02 2001
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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Subject: Re: Fran De Aquino's Photoluminescent paper updated.
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Thank you for the post!


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com\personal
www.rhfweb.com


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Thank you for the post!
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Respectfully,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>tom rhfweb.com\personal
<BR>www.rhfweb.com
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  9 14:38:02 2001
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Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:11:19 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Cursory look into Chubb hypotheis
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From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

> It would, unless we were talking about extremely low *relative*
> velocities, and that happens to be precisely the case in a rigid
> sub-lattice.

Name one.

Are you somehow confusing this so-called rigid sub-lattice with a Bose
condensate?

> Relative kinetic energies which may be as low as 1E-10 eV,
> which would yield a De Broglie wavelength for D of about 2E4 Å.

Beyond absurd. Beyond pathologically absurd.

This adds a whole new meaning to the "cold" of cold fusion. A cold fusion
cell radiates heat in the range of few hundred degrees C. and yet you wish
to posit that somewhere internally in that cell, i.e. the active region
within that cell, there could exist an "effective" temperature that is near
the coldest temperature ever recorded?

Or alternatively, that the normally random infrared emission of such a CF
cell would not be random at all but would radiate instead at a single
spectral wavelength (that of the so-called rigid sub-lattice) - in other
words, that CF cell has been transformed into an IR laser ! ... wait, not
just an IR laser but a 100% efficient IR laser !!

In point of fact, there is no rigid sub-lattice, no "effective" low
temperature, no effective coherency. Just random heat. You are off by a
factor of a billion or so but, hey, damn the torpedos, full speed ahead -
this is just vortex so let's grasp at a figure that makes the theory work?
Is that your rationale?

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  9 14:41:16 2001
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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: [antigrav] Video Clips
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:38:24 -0400
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To Vo:

Be sure to check out Jeffery Cameron's accomplishments, patents, papers,
etc. This fellow seems to be an 'Edison' of Advanced Propulsion.

Best Regards,
Colin Quinney


----- Original Message -----
From: "Takashi Nakamura" <takashinakamura japan.com>
To: <Hypercom59 aol.com>; <greenglow@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [antigrav] Video Clips


> Dear colleagues,
> Please, have a look at www.tdimension.com/lifter.html
>
> It is an experimental proof of the article:
> AIAA-2001-3913, Jeff Cameron
>
> Cameron presented a paper on a proposed Asymmetrical Gravity Wave
> Propulsion System that has been simulated using computer simulation by
> has not yet been experimentally verified. The proposed concept uses Weber
> resonant vibrators as gravity wave radiators, and magnifies the effect by
> proposing an array of these radiator cells, such that they are phased to
> constructively interfere with each other to form a tighter gravity wave
> beam. While he proposed a linear array I see no reason why a 2D array
> could not be used to further enhance directivity. Aside from the reaction
> force to the propagation of the gravity wave, which better per unit
> area than a solar sail, there is also the impact of the gravity wave on
> other masses to be considered. Would pointing the gravity beam at a
> planet help to "pull" the space vehicle towards that planet.
> Alternatively, if the reaction mass where attached to a fixed object,
> would the gravity beam be useful as a "tractor beam" if pointed directly
> at a non-fixed object? The answers to these questions may be
> non-intuitive and bear further investigation.
>
>
> --
>
> _______________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  9 18:17:34 2001
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <017401c1510a$b97749d0$6401a8c0 cs910664a>
Subject: Re: [antigrav] Video Clips
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Hi again, Colin;

Thanks again for the heads up on this one, per your private e-mail.  Still
have not been able to download the pdf file for the paper on the
asymmetrical capacitance, though.

I took a look at the pictures and descriptions, and then watched the video.

I hate to be a gloomy Gus, but I don't buy it.

1.  The descriptions of the apparatus are very vague - unlike the more
professional and careful descriptions of people like Stavros Dmitriou or J-L
Naudin, for example.
2.  I see small diameter bare high voltage wires - naked to the air!  Holey
moley, I am just now getting a handle on what a treacherous artifact
generator this can be, especially above 10kV.  If they are using a
VanDeGraaf, then we are talking ion city, both positive and negative,
coulombic forces, and all sorts of electrostatic bouncing around!
3.  In the video, the little three sided unit leaps up and strains at the
end of it's tether / HV wire.  What I also see though is that the base plate
that it rests on looks like aluminum.  The lifting force almost looks like
electrostatic repulsion from the base plate.  Hey- with a Van de Graaf, such
things are possible!
4.  The Q and A section contains what seem to be (to me at least) very
confusing, vague, and downright simplistic terms.
5.  There seems to be no due dilligence in examining the parameters of the
force, linearity, thresholds, vectors, etc.  Plots and data are nice.  I see
nothing resembling that.

   If I sound grouchy, it is because I have come to realize from self
experience how important it is to be extremely harsh on my own experimental
procedures.  High potentials or field densities bring with them the
exponential possibilities for artifacts - artifacts that I am not ashamed to
say have bitten me in the past.

NR


----- Original Message -----
From: Colin Quinney <crquin home.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 5:38 PM
Subject: Fw: [antigrav] Video Clips


> To Vo:
>
> Be sure to check out Jeffery Cameron's accomplishments, patents, papers,
> etc. This fellow seems to be an 'Edison' of Advanced Propulsion.
>
> Best Regards,
> Colin Quinney
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Takashi Nakamura" <takashinakamura japan.com>
> To: <Hypercom59 aol.com>; <greenglow@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 6:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [antigrav] Video Clips
>
>
> > Dear colleagues,
> > Please, have a look at www.tdimension.com/lifter.html
> >
> > It is an experimental proof of the article:
> > AIAA-2001-3913, Jeff Cameron
> >
> > Cameron presented a paper on a proposed Asymmetrical Gravity Wave
> > Propulsion System that has been simulated using computer simulation by
> > has not yet been experimentally verified. The proposed concept uses
Weber
> > resonant vibrators as gravity wave radiators, and magnifies the effect
by
> > proposing an array of these radiator cells, such that they are phased to
> > constructively interfere with each other to form a tighter gravity wave
> > beam. While he proposed a linear array I see no reason why a 2D array
> > could not be used to further enhance directivity. Aside from the
reaction
> > force to the propagation of the gravity wave, which better per unit
> > area than a solar sail, there is also the impact of the gravity wave on
> > other masses to be considered. Would pointing the gravity beam at a
> > planet help to "pull" the space vehicle towards that planet.
> > Alternatively, if the reaction mass where attached to a fixed object,
> > would the gravity beam be useful as a "tractor beam" if pointed directly
> > at a non-fixed object? The answers to these questions may be
> > non-intuitive and bear further investigation.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
> > http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
> >
> > Have you downloaded the latest calling software from Net2Phone? Click
here
> to get it now!
> >
>
http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/adforward.cgi?p_key=NH211JK&url=http://comm
> center.net2phone.com/
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> >
> >
> >
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  9 20:07:19 2001
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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George Hathaway" <ghathaway ieee.org>, <war123@aztec.asu.edu>,
        <cay electricspacecraft.com>
References: <017401c1510a$b97749d0$6401a8c0 cs910664a> <002301c15129$9e388de0$ee3dee3f@User>
Subject: Re: [antigrav] Video Clips
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Hi Nick,

Ok Nick. Thanks for your experience, and your honesty. It's not easy for me
to publicly say this, that even though I know that we are supposed to look
at new science here, I somehow feel ashamed that someone could so easily
take advantage of my "wanting to believe", as Mulder would say.. or to be so
easily "bitten", as you put it.

Notice also the black background in the QuickTime videos. That's certainly
not conducive to a feeling of confidence either.

Best Regards,
Colin Quinney


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [antigrav] Video Clips


> Hi again, Colin;
>
> Thanks again for the heads up on this one, per your private e-mail.  Still
> have not been able to download the pdf file for the paper on the
> asymmetrical capacitance, though.
>
> I took a look at the pictures and descriptions, and then watched the
video.
>
> I hate to be a gloomy Gus, but I don't buy it.
>
> 1.  The descriptions of the apparatus are very vague - unlike the more
> professional and careful descriptions of people like Stavros Dmitriou or
J-L
> Naudin, for example.
> 2.  I see small diameter bare high voltage wires - naked to the air!
Holey
> moley, I am just now getting a handle on what a treacherous artifact
> generator this can be, especially above 10kV.  If they are using a
> VanDeGraaf, then we are talking ion city, both positive and negative,
> coulombic forces, and all sorts of electrostatic bouncing around!
> 3.  In the video, the little three sided unit leaps up and strains at the
> end of it's tether / HV wire.  What I also see though is that the base
plate
> that it rests on looks like aluminum.  The lifting force almost looks like
> electrostatic repulsion from the base plate.  Hey- with a Van de Graaf,
such
> things are possible!
> 4.  The Q and A section contains what seem to be (to me at least) very
> confusing, vague, and downright simplistic terms.
> 5.  There seems to be no due dilligence in examining the parameters of the
> force, linearity, thresholds, vectors, etc.  Plots and data are nice.  I
see
> nothing resembling that.
>
>    If I sound grouchy, it is because I have come to realize from self
> experience how important it is to be extremely harsh on my own
experimental
> procedures.  High potentials or field densities bring with them the
> exponential possibilities for artifacts - artifacts that I am not ashamed
to
> say have bitten me in the past.
>
> NR
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Colin Quinney <crquin home.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 5:38 PM
> Subject: Fw: [antigrav] Video Clips
>
>
> > To Vo:
> >
> > Be sure to check out Jeffery Cameron's accomplishments, patents, papers,
> > etc. This fellow seems to be an 'Edison' of Advanced Propulsion.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Colin Quinney
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Takashi Nakamura" <takashinakamura japan.com>
> > To: <Hypercom59 aol.com>; <greenglow@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 6:57 AM
> > Subject: Re: [antigrav] Video Clips
> >
> >
> > > Dear colleagues,
> > > Please, have a look at www.tdimension.com/lifter.html
> > >
> > > It is an experimental proof of the article:
> > > AIAA-2001-3913, Jeff Cameron
> > >
> > > Cameron presented a paper on a proposed Asymmetrical Gravity Wave
> > > Propulsion System that has been simulated using computer simulation by
> > > has not yet been experimentally verified. The proposed concept uses
> Weber
> > > resonant vibrators as gravity wave radiators, and magnifies the effect
> by
> > > proposing an array of these radiator cells, such that they are phased
to
> > > constructively interfere with each other to form a tighter gravity
wave
> > > beam. While he proposed a linear array I see no reason why a 2D array
> > > could not be used to further enhance directivity. Aside from the
> reaction
> > > force to the propagation of the gravity wave, which better per unit
> > > area than a solar sail, there is also the impact of the gravity wave
on
> > > other masses to be considered. Would pointing the gravity beam at a
> > > planet help to "pull" the space vehicle towards that planet.
> > > Alternatively, if the reaction mass where attached to a fixed object,
> > > would the gravity beam be useful as a "tractor beam" if pointed
directly
> > > at a non-fixed object? The answers to these questions may be
> > > non-intuitive and bear further investigation.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
> > > http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
> > >
> > > Have you downloaded the latest calling software from Net2Phone? Click
> here
> > to get it now!
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 01:01:41 2001
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:02:22 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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TDT appears contracted with NASA. See http://www.tdimension.com/performance.htm

Meanwhile they appears looking for more customers by shoving their technologies.

It appears they are NOT looking for millions $. 

"Cylindrical capacitors on a rotor were powered by a Vandergraff . These capacitors were successfully used in a vacuum. This little rotor was built under contract to NASA ($10,000). NASA took possession of this rotor, so TDT will construct another to cont


inue vacuum tests. (This rotor is shown on the opening page of this site.)"

The method generating trust appears very simple constructively. Actually it would not be more simple. A a wire and a conducting plate on the same plane.  Rotor and the flying triangle are the same.  Triangle is the minimal constructive shape for a solid b


ody. Minimal of frames are used:

"Lifter1 - Three capacitors were joined to form a triangle assembly."

It is kept simple as to show the principle of the lifting force. It would be funny, that this device would be a standard gadget of schools basic physics laboratories (next to wire-compass neddle-battery experiment) in next years.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 01:16:17 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cursory look into Chubb hypotheis
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:16:06 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:11:19 -0700:
[snip]
>From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>
>> It would, unless we were talking about extremely low *relative*
>> velocities, and that happens to be precisely the case in a rigid
>> sub-lattice.
>
>Name one.

Name one what? If you mean name a rigid sub-lattice, that's easy. Every
single solid in existence contains billions of them all the time.
By definition, it is simply that collection of atoms that have
correlated motion at any given point in time.

>
>Are you somehow confusing this so-called rigid sub-lattice with a Bose
>condensate?

A Bose condensate is an example of a sub set of such lattices yes.
However the ones we have seen in the lab comprise collections of super
cooled gas atoms, and are long lasting. The ones I'm talking about
comprise random combinations of atoms in a solid, and only last for
trillionths of a second.

>
>> Relative kinetic energies which may be as low as 1E-10 eV,
>> which would yield a De Broglie wavelength for D of about 2E4 Å.
>
>Beyond absurd. Beyond pathologically absurd.

So was heavier than air flight at the beginning of the twentieth
century. :)
It's not so hard to envision. Just take a collection of atoms in a
crystal all moving in the same direction at the same time. This tends to
happen quite a lot in solid crystalline substances.

>
>This adds a whole new meaning to the "cold" of cold fusion. A cold fusion
>cell radiates heat in the range of few hundred degrees C. and yet you wish
>to posit that somewhere internally in that cell, i.e. the active region
>within that cell, there could exist an "effective" temperature that is near
>the coldest temperature ever recorded?

It depends on your definition of temperature.
Do I mean a cold "spot" buried somewhere in a hot lattice? No.
The average velocity of the atoms involved is the same as that of all
the other atoms in the lattice. The difference is that their motion is
coherent.
More accurately defined, such a sub-lattice comprises any instantaneous
collection of atoms with coherent motion. These do not have to be
adjacent to one another, but frequently many of them will be.

>
>Or alternatively, that the normally random infrared emission of such a CF
>cell would not be random at all but would radiate instead at a single
>spectral wavelength (that of the so-called rigid sub-lattice) - in other
>words, that CF cell has been transformed into an IR laser ! ... wait, not
>just an IR laser but a 100% efficient IR laser !!

For a short instant in time, and comprising many scattered atoms, yes.
Would we detect that IR outside the crystal? It depends on how
transparent the crystal is to IR at that frequency. Probably not very,
considering that is likely to absorb just as readily as it transmits.
Furthermore, it would likely only be a few wavelengths, then it would be
gone.

>
>In point of fact, there is no rigid sub-lattice, no "effective" low
>temperature, no effective coherency. Just random heat. You are off by a
>factor of a billion or so but, hey, damn the torpedos, full speed ahead -
>this is just vortex so let's grasp at a figure that makes the theory work?
>Is that your rationale?
>
>Jones
My rationale is that the existence of extremely narrow bandwidths
evidenced by the Mössbauer effect, depends upon the existence of such
sub-lattices. Since the one exists, then so does the other.

The Mössbauer effect just makes them visible to us.
It reveals that there is more coherence in the motion of the atoms of
solids than we might otherwise have expected.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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To: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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	Where is the ''divide by '' symbol on the keyboard???
	cool!5




On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:11:19 -0700:
> [snip]
> >From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> >
> >> It would, unless we were talking about extremely low *relative*
> >> velocities, and that happens to be precisely the case in a rigid
> >> sub-lattice.
> >
> >Name one.
> 
> Name one what? If you mean name a rigid sub-lattice, that's easy. Every
> single solid in existence contains billions of them all the time.
> By definition, it is simply that collection of atoms that have
> correlated motion at any given point in time.
> 
> >
> >Are you somehow confusing this so-called rigid sub-lattice with a Bose
> >condensate?
> 
> A Bose condensate is an example of a sub set of such lattices yes.
> However the ones we have seen in the lab comprise collections of super
> cooled gas atoms, and are long lasting. The ones I'm talking about
> comprise random combinations of atoms in a solid, and only last for
> trillionths of a second.
> 
> >
> >> Relative kinetic energies which may be as low as 1E-10 eV,
> >> which would yield a De Broglie wavelength for D of about 2E4 Å.
> >
> >Beyond absurd. Beyond pathologically absurd.
> 
> So was heavier than air flight at the beginning of the twentieth
> century. :)
> It's not so hard to envision. Just take a collection of atoms in a
> crystal all moving in the same direction at the same time. This tends to
> happen quite a lot in solid crystalline substances.
> 
> >
> >This adds a whole new meaning to the "cold" of cold fusion. A cold fusion
> >cell radiates heat in the range of few hundred degrees C. and yet you wish
> >to posit that somewhere internally in that cell, i.e. the active region
> >within that cell, there could exist an "effective" temperature that is near
> >the coldest temperature ever recorded?
> 
> It depends on your definition of temperature.
> Do I mean a cold "spot" buried somewhere in a hot lattice? No.
> The average velocity of the atoms involved is the same as that of all
> the other atoms in the lattice. The difference is that their motion is
> coherent.
> More accurately defined, such a sub-lattice comprises any instantaneous
> collection of atoms with coherent motion. These do not have to be
> adjacent to one another, but frequently many of them will be.
> 
> >
> >Or alternatively, that the normally random infrared emission of such a CF
> >cell would not be random at all but would radiate instead at a single
> >spectral wavelength (that of the so-called rigid sub-lattice) - in other
> >words, that CF cell has been transformed into an IR laser ! ... wait, not
> >just an IR laser but a 100% efficient IR laser !!
> 
> For a short instant in time, and comprising many scattered atoms, yes.
> Would we detect that IR outside the crystal? It depends on how
> transparent the crystal is to IR at that frequency. Probably not very,
> considering that is likely to absorb just as readily as it transmits.
> Furthermore, it would likely only be a few wavelengths, then it would be
> gone.
> 
> >
> >In point of fact, there is no rigid sub-lattice, no "effective" low
> >temperature, no effective coherency. Just random heat. You are off by a
> >factor of a billion or so but, hey, damn the torpedos, full speed ahead -
> >this is just vortex so let's grasp at a figure that makes the theory work?
> >Is that your rationale?
> >
> >Jones
> My rationale is that the existence of extremely narrow bandwidths
> evidenced by the Mössbauer effect, depends upon the existence of such
> sub-lattices. Since the one exists, then so does the other.
> 
> The Mössbauer effect just makes them visible to us.
> It reveals that there is more coherence in the motion of the atoms of
> solids than we might otherwise have expected.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 01:27:20 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
cc: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: WARNING Re: Fran De Aquino's Photoluminescent paper updated.
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DANGER

	WARNING

	If you break the outside glass on the pressurized outdoor lighting
these lamps emit a LOT of SHOT WAVE ULTRA VIOLET LIGHT

	CAN BURN BLIND AND CAUSE PERMANENT EYE DAMAGE

On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, hamdi ucar wrote:

>  Hi,
> 
> Fran De Aquino's "A Possibility of Control of Gravity in Photoluminescence Materials" paper is
> updated. http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0109060
> 
> Nick, can you weight a compact florescent tube with your precision balance?
> 
> Outdoor lighting high pressure mercury lamps are  strong UV emitter if the outer glass is removed.
> So hanging the lamp above the balance pane containing piece of outer glass coated with the powder could be tested.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> hamdi ucar
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 01:59:44 2001
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John,

Thank you for the warning. This UV is very dangerous and ionize the air.(lambda >200nm) I had used these tubes on various experiments. Always took precaution do not expose it to my eyes and other tissues.

I assumed that who knows to light these lamps have to know the danger also.


John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> DANGER
> 
>         WARNING
> 
>         If you break the outside glass on the pressurized outdoor lighting
> these lamps emit a LOT of SHOT WAVE ULTRA VIOLET LIGHT
> 
>         CAN BURN BLIND AND CAUSE PERMANENT EYE DAMAGE
> 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 03:55:12 2001
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Subject: Re: Fw: [antigrav] Video Clips
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Hello, Hamdi;

See a couple of inserted comments below...

----- Original Message -----
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:02 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [antigrav] Video Clips


>
> TDT appears contracted with NASA. See
http://www.tdimension.com/performance.htm
>
> Meanwhile they appears looking for more customers by shoving their
technologies.

********  Yes, but if one REALLY reads the text carefully, even the
biographies - one finds that there are a lot of statements that are way too
vague.  Notice in the bio- for Mr. Cameron that there are a wide variety of
patents claimed, but no numbers or dates for verification or further
reference.  This is not standard practice.
>
> It appears they are NOT looking for millions $.
>
> "Cylindrical capacitors on a rotor were powered by a Vandergraff . These
capacitors were successfully used in a vacuum. This little rotor was built
under contract to NASA ($10,000). NASA took possession of this rotor, so TDT
will construct another to continue vacuum tests. (This rotor is shown on the
opening page of this site.)"

********  As I mentioned to Colin off-line, this is also vague.  Generally
(at least the way we have to do it in photovoltaic contracts) one needs to
credit the specific contract number or SBIR account number and originating
office.  There is no real hint, apart from the report delivered at an open
poster session, as to any reality of the contract claims.

> The method generating trust appears very simple constructively. Actually
it would not be more simple. A a wire and a conducting plate on the same
plane.

********  And there is no originality in this whatsoever!  This was one of
TT Brown's patent embodiments - right to the "T".   Brown disclosed and
explained the electro-fluid-dynamic mechanism correctly.  Many other
experimentalists, Naudin in particular, have continued to work on this.
While it may be true that Brown's patents expired long ago (unless the
family or holder has renewed them), the concepts are still his in spirit.
Nowhere on the "Trans-Dimensional" website is prior art acknowleged.


Rotor and the flying triangle are the same.  Triangle is the minimal
constructive shape for a solid body. Minimal of frames are used:
>
> "Lifter1 - Three capacitors were joined to form a triangle assembly."
>
> It is kept simple as to show the principle of the lifting force. It would
be funny, that this device would be a standard gadget of schools basic
physics laboratories (next to wire-compass neddle-battery experiment) in
next years.

*********  Corona driven rotors, powered from either Van de Graafs or Tesla
Coils, were in classroom use over a century ago.  There is no new principle,
that I can see, in Trans-Dimensional's claims.

NR


>
> Regards,
>
> hamdi ucar
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 05:53:33 2001
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Nick,

You are right on your points, no originality, patents, etc., but this is the first
time I saw  a flying thing. The charteristic dynamic of the movement appears
authentic to be. There are 3 treads holding the triangle to the table with black
tapes. If you examine the movements, you can see the trust is in the direction of
the capacitors (othogonal to triangle plane), so lateral movements of the triangle
is coupled to its inclination. If the treads are left longer, triangle will be
totally unstable and fall on a side.

> > It is kept simple as to show the principle of the lifting force. It would
> > be funny, that this device would be a standard gadget of schools basic
> > physics laboratories (next to wire-compass neddle-battery experiment) in
> > next years.
> 

> *********  Corona driven rotors, powered from either Van de Graafs or Tesla
> Coils, were in classroom use over a century ago.  There is no new principle,
> that I can see, in Trans-Dimensional's claims.


They claim non-conservative Lorentz forces are responsible for the effect,(but no
magnetic field is mentioned). Anyway they claim non-conservative forces. 

 

Nick Reiter wrote:
> 
> Hello, Hamdi;
> 
> See a couple of inserted comments below...
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [antigrav] Video Clips
> 
> >
> > TDT appears contracted with NASA. See
> http://www.tdimension.com/performance.htm
> >
> > Meanwhile they appears looking for more customers by shoving their
> technologies.
> 
> ********  Yes, but if one REALLY reads the text carefully, even the
> biographies - one finds that there are a lot of statements that are way too
> vague.  Notice in the bio- for Mr. Cameron that there are a wide variety of
> patents claimed, but no numbers or dates for verification or further
> reference.  This is not standard practice.
> >
> > It appears they are NOT looking for millions $.
> >
> > "Cylindrical capacitors on a rotor were powered by a Vandergraff . These
> capacitors were successfully used in a vacuum. This little rotor was built
> under contract to NASA ($10,000). NASA took possession of this rotor, so TDT
> will construct another to continue vacuum tests. (This rotor is shown on the
> opening page of this site.)"
> 
> ********  As I mentioned to Colin off-line, this is also vague.  Generally
> (at least the way we have to do it in photovoltaic contracts) one needs to
> credit the specific contract number or SBIR account number and originating
> office.  There is no real hint, apart from the report delivered at an open
> poster session, as to any reality of the contract claims.
> 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 06:04:03 2001
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Nick,

You are right on your points, no originality, patents, etc., but this is the first
time I saw  a flying thing! The charteristic dynamic of the movement appears
authentic to be. There are 3 treads holding the triangle to the table with black
tapes. If you examine the movements, you can see the trust is in the direction of
the capacitors (othogonal to triangle plane), so lateral movements of the triangle
is coupled to its inclination. If the treads are left longer, triangle will be
totally unstable and fall on a side.

> > It is kept simple as to show the principle of the lifting force. It would
> > be funny, that this device would be a standard gadget of schools basic
> > physics laboratories (next to wire-compass neddle-battery experiment) in
> > next years.
> 

> *********  Corona driven rotors, powered from either Van de Graafs or Tesla
> Coils, were in classroom use over a century ago.  There is no new principle,
> that I can see, in Trans-Dimensional's claims.


They claim non-conservative Lorentz forces are responsible for the effect,(but no
magnetic field is mentioned). Anyway they claim non-conservative forces. 

 

Nick Reiter wrote:
> 
> Hello, Hamdi;
> 
> See a couple of inserted comments below...
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [antigrav] Video Clips
> 
> >
> > TDT appears contracted with NASA. See
> http://www.tdimension.com/performance.htm
> >
> > Meanwhile they appears looking for more customers by shoving their
> technologies.
> 
> ********  Yes, but if one REALLY reads the text carefully, even the
> biographies - one finds that there are a lot of statements that are way too
> vague.  Notice in the bio- for Mr. Cameron that there are a wide variety of
> patents claimed, but no numbers or dates for verification or further
> reference.  This is not standard practice.
> >
> > It appears they are NOT looking for millions $.
> >
> > "Cylindrical capacitors on a rotor were powered by a Vandergraff . These
> capacitors were successfully used in a vacuum. This little rotor was built
> under contract to NASA ($10,000). NASA took possession of this rotor, so TDT
> will construct another to continue vacuum tests. (This rotor is shown on the
> opening page of this site.)"
> 
> ********  As I mentioned to Colin off-line, this is also vague.  Generally
> (at least the way we have to do it in photovoltaic contracts) one needs to
> credit the specific contract number or SBIR account number and originating
> office.  There is no real hint, apart from the report delivered at an open
> poster session, as to any reality of the contract claims.
> 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 11:03:59 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Fw: [antigrav] Video Clips
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:04:59 -0400
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Hi.

Interesting too, that if I read the site correctly
they claim that the effect is proportional to the
leakage current. Sounds like ionic effect to me.
But of course, more information is needed to
properly evaluate the claim. His backround makes
it worth consideration, even if the material
on the site is too sketchy.

Bill Beaty should invite him to the list, this
guy sounds like a real Vort to me (smile).

K.

PS: Perhaps someone could ask him the contract
number and we can get NASA to comment. Why does
he mention it but not put the number in? That's
just shooting yourself in the foot, it seems.

-----Original Message-----
From: hamdi ucar [mailto:hamdix verisoft.com.tr]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 9:01 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fw: [antigrav] Video Clips


Nick,

You are right on your points, no originality, patents, etc., but this is the
first
time I saw  a flying thing! The charteristic dynamic of the movement appears
authentic to be. There are 3 treads holding the triangle to the table with
black
tapes. If you examine the movements, you can see the trust is in the
direction of
the capacitors (othogonal to triangle plane), so lateral movements of the
triangle
is coupled to its inclination. If the treads are left longer, triangle will
be
totally unstable and fall on a side.

> > It is kept simple as to show the principle of the lifting force. It
would
> > be funny, that this device would be a standard gadget of schools basic
> > physics laboratories (next to wire-compass neddle-battery experiment) in
> > next years.
>

> *********  Corona driven rotors, powered from either Van de Graafs or
Tesla
> Coils, were in classroom use over a century ago.  There is no new
principle,
> that I can see, in Trans-Dimensional's claims.


They claim non-conservative Lorentz forces are responsible for the
effect,(but no
magnetic field is mentioned). Anyway they claim non-conservative forces.



Nick Reiter wrote:
>
> Hello, Hamdi;
>
> See a couple of inserted comments below...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [antigrav] Video Clips
>
> >
> > TDT appears contracted with NASA. See
> http://www.tdimension.com/performance.htm
> >
> > Meanwhile they appears looking for more customers by shoving their
> technologies.
>
> ********  Yes, but if one REALLY reads the text carefully, even the
> biographies - one finds that there are a lot of statements that are way
too
> vague.  Notice in the bio- for Mr. Cameron that there are a wide variety
of
> patents claimed, but no numbers or dates for verification or further
> reference.  This is not standard practice.
> >
> > It appears they are NOT looking for millions $.
> >
> > "Cylindrical capacitors on a rotor were powered by a Vandergraff . These
> capacitors were successfully used in a vacuum. This little rotor was built
> under contract to NASA ($10,000). NASA took possession of this rotor, so
TDT
> will construct another to continue vacuum tests. (This rotor is shown on
the
> opening page of this site.)"
>
> ********  As I mentioned to Colin off-line, this is also vague.  Generally
> (at least the way we have to do it in photovoltaic contracts) one needs to
> credit the specific contract number or SBIR account number and originating
> office.  There is no real hint, apart from the report delivered at an open
> poster session, as to any reality of the contract claims.
>

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 13:42:39 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: JLN replication of Transdimensional Flyer
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:50:31 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMEEKDCPAA.knagel gis.net>
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OK, here's JLN's replication.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftbld.htm

Press the snooze button please.

K.

PS: Wanna really make the thing rock and roll?
Use the power supply from a Quadra ionic breeze device.
MUCH more efficient. Yawn. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 14:36:40 2001
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Message-ID: <01c401c151d3$48d5b940$6401a8c0 cs910664a>
From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
To: <JNaudin509 aol.com>
Cc: "George Hathaway" <ghathaway ieee.org>, <war123@aztec.asu.edu>,
        "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        <cay electricspacecraft.com>, <greenglow@yahoogroups.com>
References: <ad.119e5c5d.28f608e8 aol.com>
Subject: Re: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter replicated successfully..
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Dear Jean-Louis,
=20
Merci, and thank you! (It's too bad that Transdimensional Technologies =
didn't give the reference on their web site on how to achieve the =
action.)

Dr. Mason Rose believed that this effect was a modification of the local =
gravitational field, but... will it work in a vacuum?

Congratulations. Excellent replication.

Best Regards,
Colin Quinney
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JNaudin509 aol.com=20
  To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr ; djsquires@plix.com ; crquin@home.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:26 PM
  Subject: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter =
replicated successfully..


  Dear All,

  Very astonishing !!! I have replicated the Transdimensional's Lifter1 =
and Lifter2 successfully... WOOWW...=20

  The device SELF-LEVITATE and is able to carry a payload.

  On June 2001, Transdimensional Technologies has presented the Lifter1 =
and Lifter2 devices. The Lifter1 device was built with three capacitors =
joined so as to form a triangle assembly and the Lifter2 is three time =
heavier and three time bigger than the Lifter1. These devices are able =
to lift their own weight and they are a "modern version" of the Townsend =
Brown Electrokinetic Apparatus. The Lifters are using the Biefeld-Brown =
Effect to generate the main thrust to self levitate.=20

  I suggest you strongly to visit my web site, you will find :

  The replication of the Lifter1 experiment with photos and videos :
     http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter1.htm
  The replication of the Lifter2 experiment with photos and videos :
     http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter2.htm
  All the details for building and replicate yourself the Lifter1 device =
:
     http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftbld.htm

  THIS IS A VERY EXCITING AND A VERY FUN EXPERIMENT.... Enjoy...

  Best Regards
  Jean-Louis Naudin
  Email: JNaudin509 aol.com
  Main Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/
  Alternate site : http://jnaudin.free.fr/=20


  ---
  Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
  Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Jean-Louis,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Merci, and thank you! </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>(</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It's too bad that =
Transdimensional=20
Technologies didn't give the&nbsp;reference&nbsp;on their web site on=20
how&nbsp;to achieve the action.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dr. Mason Rose believed that&nbsp;this=20
effect&nbsp;was a modification of the local gravitational field, but... =
will it=20
work in a vacuum?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Congratulations. Excellent=20
replication.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Best Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Colin Quinney</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DJNaudin509 aol.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:JNaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dhamdix verisoft.com.tr=20
  href=3D"mailto:hamdix verisoft.com.tr">hamdix@verisoft.com.tr</A> ; <A =

  title=3Ddjsquires plix.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:djsquires plix.com">djsquires@plix.com</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dcrquin home.com =
href=3D"mailto:crquin home.com">crquin@home.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 10, =
2001 4:26=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [UPDATE] Astonishing =
!!! The=20
  Transdimensional's Lifter replicated successfully..</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" size=3D2>Dear =
All,<BR><BR>Very=20
  astonishing !!! I have replicated the Transdimensional's Lifter1 and =
Lifter2=20
  successfully... WOOWW... <BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D1=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B>The device SELF-LEVITATE and is able to carry =
a=20
  payload.</FONT><FONT lang=3D1 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></B><BR><BR>On June =
2001,=20
  Transdimensional Technologies has presented the Lifter1 and Lifter2 =
devices.=20
  The Lifter1 device was built with three capacitors joined so as to =
form a=20
  triangle assembly and the Lifter2 is three time heavier and three time =
bigger=20
  than the Lifter1. These devices are able to lift their own weight and =
they are=20
  a "modern version" of the Townsend Brown Electrokinetic Apparatus. The =
Lifters=20
  are using the Biefeld-Brown Effect to generate the main thrust to self =

  levitate. </FONT><FONT lang=3D1 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR><BR></FONT><FONT =
lang=3D1=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">I suggest you <B><U>strongly</U> </B>to visit my =
web site,=20
  you will find :</FONT><FONT lang=3D1 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff"=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D3 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D1=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B>The replication of the Lifter1 experiment with =
photos=20
  and videos :</B><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter1.htm">http://jnaudin.free.fr/h=
tml/lifter1.htm</A><BR><B>The=20
  replication of the Lifter2 experiment with photos and videos=20
  :</B><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter2.htm">http://jnaudin.free.fr/h=
tml/lifter2.htm</A><BR><B>All=20
  the details for building and replicate yourself the Lifter1 device=20
  :</B><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftbld.htm">http://jnaudin.free.fr/ht=
ml/lftbld.htm</A><BR><BR>THIS=20
  IS A VERY EXCITING AND A VERY FUN EXPERIMENT.... Enjoy...<BR><BR>Best=20
  Regards<BR>Jean-Louis Naudin<BR>Email: <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:jnaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A><BR>Main Web =
site : <A=20
  href=3D"http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/</A><BR>Alternate =
site : <A=20
  href=3D"http://jnaudin.free.fr/">http://jnaudin.free.fr/</A></FONT> =
<FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>---<BR>Outgoing mail is certified =
Virus=20
  Free.<BR>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (<A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.grisoft.com">http://www.grisoft.com</A>).<BR>Version: =
6.0.282=20
  / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date:=20
9/26/2001</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 14:49:49 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC: The man behind WTC Attack Revealed!
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:58:05 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMKEKECPAA.knagel gis.net>
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Finally, it has been revealed who is really
responsible for the WTC bombings etc.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20011009/wl/imdf09102001085522a.html

Look closely by the left ear of the large bin laden head
in the poster...OH MY GOD! That's a real Reuters pic folks.

More images of posters here.

http://www.lindqvist.com/bert.php

I must admit, the Internet is nothing short of magic....

K.

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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:20:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Colin Quinney <crquin home.com>
cc: JNaudin509 aol.com, George Hathaway <ghathaway@ieee.org>,
        war123 aztec.asu.edu, Nick Reiter <reit@ezworks.net>,
        vortex-l eskimo.com, cay@electricspacecraft.com,
        greenglow yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [antigrav] Re: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter replicated successfully..
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	Dear Colin,


	A well balanced ion prime mover.....

	Jean-Louis ...good job making this duplicable.


	Can we all contribute some comprehensive warnings to experimenters
	new to the field to help to prevent injury or worse?


		Please



On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Colin Quinney wrote:

> Dear Jean-Louis,
>  
> Merci, and thank you! (It's too bad that Transdimensional Technologies didn't give the reference on their web site on how to achieve the action.)
> 
> Dr. Mason Rose believed that this effect was a modification of the local gravitational field, but... will it work in a vacuum?
> 
> Congratulations. Excellent replication.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Colin Quinney
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: JNaudin509 aol.com 
>   To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr ; djsquires@plix.com ; crquin@home.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:26 PM
>   Subject: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter replicated successfully..
> 
> 
>   Dear All,
> 
>   Very astonishing !!! I have replicated the Transdimensional's Lifter1 and Lifter2 successfully... WOOWW... 
> 
>   The device SELF-LEVITATE and is able to carry a payload.
> 
>   On June 2001, Transdimensional Technologies has presented the Lifter1 and Lifter2 devices. The Lifter1 device was built with three capacitors joined so as to form a triangle assembly and the Lifter2 is three time heavier and three time bigger than the


 Lifter1. These devices are able to lift their own weight and they are a "modern version" of the Townsend Brown Electrokinetic Apparatus. The Lifters are using the Biefeld-Brown Effect to generate the main thrust to self levitate. 
> 
>   I suggest you strongly to visit my web site, you will find :
> 
>   The replication of the Lifter1 experiment with photos and videos :
>      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter1.htm
>   The replication of the Lifter2 experiment with photos and videos :
>      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter2.htm
>   All the details for building and replicate yourself the Lifter1 device :
>      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftbld.htm
> 
>   THIS IS A VERY EXCITING AND A VERY FUN EXPERIMENT.... Enjoy...
> 
>   Best Regards
>   Jean-Louis Naudin
>   Email: JNaudin509 aol.com
>   Main Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/
>   Alternate site : http://jnaudin.free.fr/ 
> 
> 
>   ---
>   Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>   Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/26/2001
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> FREE COLLEGE MONEY
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> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 15:39:10 2001
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: JLN's Lifter Replication
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:42:21 -0400
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Yes, hats off to Jean Louis; perhaps most of all for giving credit where
credit is due!  A job well done.

There is a test I would strongly suggest, though, as it was tried out by
Scott Little a few weeks ago when he was replicating my spherical capacitor
observations.  This would involve adding some visible smoke to the area, to
make the flow patterns and paths visible.

In the case of the sphere caps, actual corona from the lead wires was not
necessarily the culpret.  I suspect the same may apply here.  What was
producing the lift / weight change was a true electro-hydrodynamic charge
carrier acceleration - in this case the charged dielectric / carrier is air
molecules (N2/O2/etc).  Because of this, the charged air will simply swoop
around the sides of JLN's cardboard shield, and still accelerate downward,
thus continuing the reaction force - the upward motion of the lifter.

Ultimate test?  (apart from vacuum)  - the Bill Beaty standby - put it in a
plastic bag....

NR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 17:42:56 2001
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Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:49:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
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	Dear vo.,


	I am reporting on a non silicon photo cell and maybe the math
wizards can help me to calculate the utility.  This was tested by NREL and
Swiss federal [their federal] labs.  It uses Platinum, ruthenium, titanium
and these are older figures... I figure it can be improved....

	My personal interest is that it is not silicon so we don't need to
go up to 1800 C to make the things, and, with a little cooperation this
could be a kitchen table thing.

	exposure is one sun and the WL it is converting is broadband 400
to 500 strongly and out to 700 at 80 percents quantum efficiency all of
these are in nanometers .... a red laser is 630 to 670 nm  418 is pale
blue

	The test Area =			0.1863 cm
	Short circuit current, Isc =	3.824 mA
	max volts			0.5465
	I (current) max			3.552 mA
	area current SC			20.53 mA cm square
	power max			1.941 milliWatts


	NOW:

	Figure some  size like 1 foot or 1 meter square..... and then how
much footage or meter-age gives us, please

	1,000 watts
	5,000 ""
       10,000 ""


	To round off	figure volts to 0.5 and current to 3.0 mA and this
way things are conservative

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 18:00:30 2001
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011010203154.11435I-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:02:03 -0400
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John;

The CdTe photovoltaic modules we make are roughly 6 to 7% efficient for
conversion efficiency.  This means that for a 2 ft by 4 ft module, we see
approximately 40 to 60 watts in full sunlight. (Given that the typical power
from full sunlight is roughly 1000W per square meter.)

The photo catalyzed TiO2 dye cell PV devices are indeed novel, and are very
eco-friendly and experimenter do-able.  However, they are, as of yet, very
inefficient - I believe typically less than 1% conversion efficiency.  Maybe
these new figures show an improvement, though.  Generally, for CdTe we see
an open circuit device voltage of .8V, and typical currents of 20 mA/cm^2.
But efficiency can also depend on series resistance, internal shunting, and
the derived power curve parameter known as fill factor.

Nick Reiter


----- Original Message -----
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:49 PM
Subject: Oxide and dye solar sun cell


>
>
>
> Dear vo.,
>
>
> I am reporting on a non silicon photo cell and maybe the math
> wizards can help me to calculate the utility.  This was tested by NREL and
> Swiss federal [their federal] labs.  It uses Platinum, ruthenium, titanium
> and these are older figures... I figure it can be improved....
>
> My personal interest is that it is not silicon so we don't need to
> go up to 1800 C to make the things, and, with a little cooperation this
> could be a kitchen table thing.
>
> exposure is one sun and the WL it is converting is broadband 400
> to 500 strongly and out to 700 at 80 percents quantum efficiency all of
> these are in nanometers .... a red laser is 630 to 670 nm  418 is pale
> blue
>
> The test Area = 0.1863 cm
> Short circuit current, Isc = 3.824 mA
> max volts 0.5465
> I (current) max 3.552 mA
> area current SC 20.53 mA cm square
> power max 1.941 milliWatts
>
>
> NOW:
>
> Figure some  size like 1 foot or 1 meter square..... and then how
> much footage or meter-age gives us, please
>
> 1,000 watts
> 5,000 ""
>        10,000 ""
>
>
> To round off figure volts to 0.5 and current to 3.0 mA and this
> way things are conservative
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 10 20:18:57 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:18:35 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <783ast07ugamdh7on36g67fq8en0oovjg8 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Nick Reiter's message of Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:02:03 -0400:

>John;
>
>The CdTe photovoltaic modules we make are roughly 6 to 7% efficient for
>conversion efficiency.  This means that for a 2 ft by 4 ft module, we see
>approximately 40 to 60 watts in full sunlight. (Given that the typical power
>from full sunlight is roughly 1000W per square meter.)
>
>The photo catalyzed TiO2 dye cell PV devices are indeed novel, and are very
>eco-friendly and experimenter do-able.  However, they are, as of yet, very
>inefficient - I believe typically less than 1% conversion efficiency.  Maybe
>these new figures show an improvement, though.  Generally, for CdTe we see
[snip]
>> The test Area = 0.1863 cm
>> Short circuit current, Isc = 3.824 mA
>> max volts 0.5465
>> I (current) max 3.552 mA
>> area current SC 20.53 mA cm square
>> power max 1.941 milliWatts
[snip]
1.941 mW / 0.1863 cm^2 (I presume) = 104 W/m^2 which is about 10%
efficient.
Therefore, for 1000 W we need 9.6 m^2 = 103.3 ft^2
           for 5000 W         48  m^2 = 516.6 ft^2

I guess you can do 10000...

Note however that this infers sunlight at 90º to the collector (in the
summer I think). (Summer means more intense UV)






Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:50:47 -0500
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: neutron shielding
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Something just occurred to me. Lets say that I was holed up in a cave 
or bunker and I was concerned about someone exploding a neutron bomb 
overhead. So I deciede to shield it with boron, so I get some boron 
and some parafin and start smearing it on the walls. Two questions 
how thick would I have to make the layer and would it help. Would it 
be redundant anyway if I were how many feet deep in the ground, or to 
put it another way, how deep under the ground would I have to be 
inorder to shield myself?
-- 

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There are two important things that need to be done.

1: Even though Brown got thrust in a vacuum, better artifact removal is important.
This can be accomplished by draping glad wrap (plastic wrap used to cover food) over the
top.
By placing it in a bag.
Encasing the lifter in a dielectric. (also a heavy dielectric, it will stop it from
levitating but there will still be weight loss, it might turn out that the weight loss is
greater due to the higher K of the dielectric, or due to the greater mass of the
dielectric, it will also allow much greater voltages to be applied, which will greatly
increase the thrust)

2: Finding out why this hasn't been tried before, it looks like the common T.T. Brown
thruster.
But this seems to have MUCH more thrust.

Is it just an illusion of the light weight construction techniques, or is this triangular
design providing more thrust, is it an important part of the effect?

What happens if other configurations are used?

What happens if a single triangle thruster is unfolded into a flat straight thruster? Does
it's thrust decrease? Can it still lift it's self.

If the shape is key might a tetrahedron thruster be even better? (I'm basing this on
different antigravity claims of triangles and tetrahedrons)

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Subject: Re: neutron shielding
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On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, thomas malloy wrote:

> Something just occurred to me. Lets say that I was holed up in a cave 
> or bunker and I was concerned about someone exploding a neutron bomb 
> overhead. So I deciede to shield it with boron, so I get some boron 
> and some parafin and start smearing it on the walls. Two questions 
> how thick would I have to make the layer and would it help. 

Yes it would help, and how thick depends on the intensity and duration of
the neutron flux and how great a probability you want of survival. 


> Would it 
> be redundant anyway if I were how many feet deep in the ground,

Yes, but more is better.

> or to 
> put it another way, how deep under the ground would I have to be 
> inorder to shield myself?

I lost the little calculator I use to have. It depends on distance from
the bomb and the size of the bomb. My suggestion is to move away from
atomic targets.  
 

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
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Subject: Re: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter replicated successfully..
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Dear All,
	If this is right, then this is a great day for humanity.
For a practical ship to go to space using the principle of this,
and its levitation requirement of 12 Watts per gram of providing 
one 'g' of levitation, I suggest the following:

   An airliner sized ship weighing about 500,000 pounds or
250 tons would need about 18 megawatts of power.  Such
could be gotten from nuclear power carried internally.  
Scale this up to about 30,000 tons for a ship about the
size of a large cruise ship and one would need about 2300 MW
of power.  Seeing as the Kursk submarine carried 380 MW
capacity in its two reactors on a medium submarine, I see
no reason that twelve or so reactors could be built aboard
her.  A ship that size could be outfitted with shuttle craft
based on the same principle for checking out our local
planets and asteroids for minerals, life, etc.  The possibilities
for exobiological and paleoarchaeological research would
be limitless.   Mr De Naudin just invented Star Trek
for us, at least in our planetary system.

His invention holds, and humanity's needs for the forseeable
future may be solved.

Standing Bear






On Wednesday 10 October 2001 14:34, Colin Quinney wrote:
> Dear Jean-Louis,
>  
> Merci, and thank you! (It's too bad that Transdimensional 
Technologies didn't give the reference on their web site on how 
to achieve the action.)
> 
> Dr. Mason Rose believed that this effect was a modification of 
the local gravitational field, but... will it work in a vacuum?
> 
> Congratulations. Excellent replication.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Colin Quinney
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: JNaudin509 aol.com 
>   To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr ; djsquires@plix.com ; 
crquin home.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:26 PM
>   Subject: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's 
Lifter replicated successfully..
> 
> 
>   Dear All,
> 
>   Very astonishing !!! I have replicated the 
Transdimensional's Lifter1 and Lifter2 successfully... WOOWW... 
> 
>   The device SELF-LEVITATE and is able to carry a payload.
> 
>   On June 2001, Transdimensional Technologies has presented 
the Lifter1 and Lifter2 devices. The Lifter1 device was built 
with three capacitors joined so as to form a triangle assembly 
and the Lifter2 is three time heavier and three time bigger than 
the Lifter1. These devices are able to lift their own weight and 
they are a "modern version" of the Townsend Brown Electrokinetic 
Apparatus. The Lifters are using the Biefeld-Brown Effect to 
generate the main thrust to self levitate. 
> 
>   I suggest you strongly to visit my web site, you will find :
> 
>   The replication of the Lifter1 experiment with photos and 
videos :
>      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter1.htm
>   The replication of the Lifter2 experiment with photos and 
videos :
>      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter2.htm
>   All the details for building and replicate yourself the 
Lifter1 device :
>      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftbld.htm
> 
>   THIS IS A VERY EXCITING AND A VERY FUN EXPERIMENT.... 
Enjoy...
> 
>   Best Regards
>   Jean-Louis Naudin
>   Email: JNaudin509 aol.com
>   Main Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/
>   Alternate site : http://jnaudin.free.fr/ 
> 
> 
>   ---
>   Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>   Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 
9/26/2001
> 

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John
	A quick calculation gives 0.516 mwatts for your 0.186 cm^2
area. Multiply by 10^4 cm^2/m^2 gives 0.516*10^-3/0.186*10^4=27.7 watts
per square meter.

 The 0.516mwatts comes from the cell having an internal
resistance of 0.54 V/3.82 ma = 141 ohms. Using the same value for a load
gives a maximum power transfer of (half noload volts times half short
circuit current amps
 0.27V * 1.91ma=0.516mwatts  	

What is your cell? 
Hank


On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 	Dear vo.,
> 
> 
> 	I am reporting on a non silicon photo cell and maybe the math
> wizards can help me to calculate the utility.  This was tested by NREL and
> Swiss federal [their federal] labs.  It uses Platinum, ruthenium, titanium
> and these are older figures... I figure it can be improved....
> 
> 	My personal interest is that it is not silicon so we don't need
to
> go up to 1800 C to make the things, and, with a little cooperation this
> could be a kitchen table thing.
> 
> 	exposure is one sun and the WL it is converting is broadband 400
> to 500 strongly and out to 700 at 80 percents quantum efficiency all of
> these are in nanometers .... a red laser is 630 to 670 nm  418 is pale
> blue
> 
> 	The test Area =			0.1863 cm
> 	Short circuit current, Isc =	3.824 mA
> 	max volts			0.5465
> 	I (current) max			3.552 mA
> 	area current SC			20.53 mA cm square
> 	power max			1.941 milliWatts
> 
> 
> 	NOW:
> 
> 	Figure some  size like 1 foot or 1 meter square..... and then how
> much footage or meter-age gives us, please
> 
> 	1,000 watts
> 	5,000 ""
>        10,000 ""
> 
> 
> 	To round off	figure volts to 0.5 and current to 3.0 mA and this
> way things are conservative
> 

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From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: neutron shielding
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Don't bother with boron. Just hold your breath and stay under a lot of
water. Hydrogen is a great stopper of neutrons.

Hank







On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, thomas malloy wrote:

> Something just occurred to me. Lets say that I was holed up in a cave 
> or bunker and I was concerned about someone exploding a neutron bomb 
> overhead. So I deciede to shield it with boron, so I get some boron 
> and some parafin and start smearing it on the walls. Two questions 
> how thick would I have to make the layer and would it help. Would it 
> be redundant anyway if I were how many feet deep in the ground, or to 
> put it another way, how deep under the ground would I have to be 
> inorder to shield myself?
> 

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 successfully..
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(please warn me if the posting have long, long lines)


If the capacitor works in vacuum, there would be no energy consumption or be greatly reduced. Tests are needed. Maybe before going to vacuum, test can be performed in a bag containing air of reduced humidity or a inert gas.

it also appears from shift from single triangle shape to array of triangles, trust does not suffer form electrostatic field weakening at cells inside.

If this is true, one limit to squeeze cell together like a grid is removed.

I also suggest to drive the cells with asymmetric AC signal having strong second harmonics about 1kV amplitude at freq. trough few hundred kHz to some MHz range.



Standing Bear wrote:
> 
> Dear All,
>         If this is right, then this is a great day for humanity.
> For a practical ship to go to space using the principle of this,
> and its levitation requirement of 12 Watts per gram of providing
> one 'g' of levitation, I suggest the following:
> 
>    An airliner sized ship weighing about 500,000 pounds or
> 250 tons would need about 18 megawatts of power.  Such
> could be gotten from nuclear power carried internally.
> Scale this up to about 30,000 tons for a ship about the
> size of a large cruise ship and one would need about 2300 MW
> of power.  Seeing as the Kursk submarine carried 380 MW
> capacity in its two reactors on a medium submarine, I see
> no reason that twelve or so reactors could be built aboard
> her.  A ship that size could be outfitted with shuttle craft
> based on the same principle for checking out our local
> planets and asteroids for minerals, life, etc.  The possibilities
> for exobiological and paleoarchaeological research would
> be limitless.   Mr De Naudin just invented Star Trek
> for us, at least in our planetary system.
> 
> His invention holds, and humanity's needs for the forseeable
> future may be solved.
> 
> Standing Bear
> 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, John Berry wrote:

> There are two important things that need to be done.
> 
> 1: Even though Brown got thrust in a vacuum, better artifact removal is
> important.  This can be accomplished by draping glad wrap (plastic wrap
> used to cover food) over the top. 

It appears that the applied force is on the wires. I'd put the glad wrap
between the wires and the Al foil. Then, if ions are involved, the upward
force on the wires would have an equal but opposite force on the glad
wrap.

> By placing it in a bag.

Yes, but how do you know it is not causing ions to move outside the bag?

> Encasing the lifter in a dielectric. (also a heavy dielectric, it will stop it from
> levitating but there will still be weight loss, it might turn out that the weight loss is
> greater due to the higher K of the dielectric, or due to the greater mass of the
> dielectric, it will also allow much greater voltages to be applied, which will greatly
> increase the thrust)
> 
> 2: Finding out why this hasn't been tried before, it looks like the common T.T. Brown
> thruster.
> But this seems to have MUCH more thrust.

Lets see...

For a rough estimate, figure an average N and O ion at 15 grams per
mole, and 450 micro amps gives us a dm/dt = 0.0068 grams/sec.

F=dP/dt = d(mv)/dt = v*dm/dt + m*dv/dt; assume dv/dt = 0,

dm/dt=450 micromoles/sec * 15e-3 kg/mole = 6.8e-6 kg/sec

V*q = 1/2*m*v^2 => v =+(2*V*q/m)^.5

or v = (2*(40e3 Joules/coulomb)*(4.5e-4 coulomb/sec)/6.8e-6 kg/sec)^.5
     = 2300 m/s

:. F = 2300 m/s * 6.8e-6 kg/sec =~ 0.016 Newtons 

or a lift of m= 0.016 Newtons/g = 0.0016 kg 

Naudin's experiment says that it's lifting 0.0033 kg.

If the ions are oxygen and/or nitrogen it should not be able to do that,

Conclusion: 
1) I hosed the math.
2) It is not oxygen or nitrogen ions providing all the lift. 

> Is it just an illusion of the light weight construction techniques, or is this triangular
> design providing more thrust, is it an important part of the effect?

Thrust would depend upon the device configuration. Lifter-2 was a more
efficent configuration than lifter 1, for example. It is a simple matter
of ion engine design.
 
> What happens if other configurations are used?

You get better results, or worse results. Note that lifter-2 lifts almost
three times the mass of lifter 1, but uses only twice the power. Oddly, by
the calculations above, it should produce only twice the lift.

> What happens if a single triangle thruster is unfolded into a flat straight thruster? Does
> it's thrust decrease? Can it still lift it's self.

It would appear that configuration wouldn't be stable. It would fall over,
wouldn't it? Note that the center of mass of the triangle shape is between
all force points, where as a straight configuration that almost certainly
would not be true. 

> If the shape is key might a tetrahedron thruster be even better? (I'm basing this on
> different antigravity claims of triangles and tetrahedrons)

I donno, but it doesn't seem that would be so. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 12:08:49 2001
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter replicated successfully..
In-Reply-To: <01101113284200.01207 tyrannosaur>
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If it is an ion engine, as TT Brown's pattent suggest, then it won't work
in space, would it? (Not enough ions...)

For this, you need Woodward's device that works on relativistic
principles. 

On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Standing Bear wrote:

> 
> Dear All,
> 	If this is right, then this is a great day for humanity.
> For a practical ship to go to space using the principle of this,
> and its levitation requirement of 12 Watts per gram of providing 
> one 'g' of levitation, I suggest the following:
> 
>    An airliner sized ship weighing about 500,000 pounds or
> 250 tons would need about 18 megawatts of power.  Such
> could be gotten from nuclear power carried internally.  
> Scale this up to about 30,000 tons for a ship about the
> size of a large cruise ship and one would need about 2300 MW
> of power.  Seeing as the Kursk submarine carried 380 MW
> capacity in its two reactors on a medium submarine, I see
> no reason that twelve or so reactors could be built aboard
> her.  A ship that size could be outfitted with shuttle craft
> based on the same principle for checking out our local
> planets and asteroids for minerals, life, etc.  The possibilities
> for exobiological and paleoarchaeological research would
> be limitless.   Mr De Naudin just invented Star Trek
> for us, at least in our planetary system.
> 
> His invention holds, and humanity's needs for the forseeable
> future may be solved.
> 
> Standing Bear
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wednesday 10 October 2001 14:34, Colin Quinney wrote:
> > Dear Jean-Louis,
> >  
> > Merci, and thank you! (It's too bad that Transdimensional 
> Technologies didn't give the reference on their web site on how 
> to achieve the action.)
> > 
> > Dr. Mason Rose believed that this effect was a modification of 
> the local gravitational field, but... will it work in a vacuum?
> > 
> > Congratulations. Excellent replication.
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> > Colin Quinney
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   From: JNaudin509 aol.com 
> >   To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr ; djsquires@plix.com ; 
> crquin home.com 
> >   Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:26 PM
> >   Subject: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's 
> Lifter replicated successfully..
> > 
> > 
> >   Dear All,
> > 
> >   Very astonishing !!! I have replicated the 
> Transdimensional's Lifter1 and Lifter2 successfully... WOOWW... 
> > 
> >   The device SELF-LEVITATE and is able to carry a payload.
> > 
> >   On June 2001, Transdimensional Technologies has presented 
> the Lifter1 and Lifter2 devices. The Lifter1 device was built 
> with three capacitors joined so as to form a triangle assembly 
> and the Lifter2 is three time heavier and three time bigger than 
> the Lifter1. These devices are able to lift their own weight and 
> they are a "modern version" of the Townsend Brown Electrokinetic 
> Apparatus. The Lifters are using the Biefeld-Brown Effect to 
> generate the main thrust to self levitate. 
> > 
> >   I suggest you strongly to visit my web site, you will find :
> > 
> >   The replication of the Lifter1 experiment with photos and 
> videos :
> >      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter1.htm
> >   The replication of the Lifter2 experiment with photos and 
> videos :
> >      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter2.htm
> >   All the details for building and replicate yourself the 
> Lifter1 device :
> >      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftbld.htm
> > 
> >   THIS IS A VERY EXCITING AND A VERY FUN EXPERIMENT.... 
> Enjoy...
> > 
> >   Best Regards
> >   Jean-Louis Naudin
> >   Email: JNaudin509 aol.com
> >   Main Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/
> >   Alternate site : http://jnaudin.free.fr/ 
> > 
> > 
> >   ---
> >   Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> >   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >   Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 
> 9/26/2001
> > 
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"; name="Attachment: 
> 1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Content-Description: 
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 12:11:48 2001
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: neutron shielding
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On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, hank scudder wrote:

Yes, that is why the department of energy was interested in metal
hydrides, especially deuterides, a few years back. You can get up to twice
the hydrogen density as liquid hydrogen in some rare earth metals
according to Muller, iirc.  (which is something those skeptics on s.p.f.
don't understand, but who cares about what they think.)

> Don't bother with boron. Just hold your breath and stay under a lot of
> water. Hydrogen is a great stopper of neutrons.
> 
> Hank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> > Something just occurred to me. Lets say that I was holed up in a cave 
> > or bunker and I was concerned about someone exploding a neutron bomb 
> > overhead. So I deciede to shield it with boron, so I get some boron 
> > and some parafin and start smearing it on the walls. Two questions 
> > how thick would I have to make the layer and would it help. Would it 
> > be redundant anyway if I were how many feet deep in the ground, or to 
> > put it another way, how deep under the ground would I have to be 
> > inorder to shield myself?
> > 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 12:15:20 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter replicated  successfully..
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On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, hamdi ucar wrote:

> (please warn me if the posting have long, long lines)
> 
 
> If the capacitor works in vacuum, there would be no energy consumption
> or be greatly reduced. Tests are needed. Maybe before going to vacuum,
> test can be performed in a bag containing air of reduced humidity or a
> inert gas. 

Since there doesn't seem to be enough ion lift to explain the experiment,
it may not be ions. It disturbs me that this is said to work in a vacume.
If so, I believe it is a new effect.
 
> it also appears from shift from single triangle shape to array of
> triangles, trust does not suffer form electrostatic field weakening at
> cells inside. 

Hummm... Let me think about that. 

> If this is true, one limit to squeeze cell together like a grid is removed.

?

> I also suggest to drive the cells with asymmetric AC signal having
> strong second harmonics about 1kV amplitude at freq. trough few hundred
> kHz to some MHz range. 

Why?
 
 
> Standing Bear wrote:
> > 
> > Dear All,
> >         If this is right, then this is a great day for humanity.
> > For a practical ship to go to space using the principle of this,
> > and its levitation requirement of 12 Watts per gram of providing
> > one 'g' of levitation, I suggest the following:
> > 
> >    An airliner sized ship weighing about 500,000 pounds or
> > 250 tons would need about 18 megawatts of power.  Such
> > could be gotten from nuclear power carried internally.
> > Scale this up to about 30,000 tons for a ship about the
> > size of a large cruise ship and one would need about 2300 MW
> > of power.  Seeing as the Kursk submarine carried 380 MW
> > capacity in its two reactors on a medium submarine, I see
> > no reason that twelve or so reactors could be built aboard
> > her.  A ship that size could be outfitted with shuttle craft
> > based on the same principle for checking out our local
> > planets and asteroids for minerals, life, etc.  The possibilities
> > for exobiological and paleoarchaeological research would
> > be limitless.   Mr De Naudin just invented Star Trek
> > for us, at least in our planetary system.
> > 
> > His invention holds, and humanity's needs for the forseeable
> > future may be solved.
> > 
> > Standing Bear
> > 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> hamdi ucar
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 12:24:18 2001
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:24:16 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: New paper by Mizuno et al. in JJAP
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See:

http://www.jjap.or.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle?magazine=JJAP&volume=40&number=9A&page=L989-L991

Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. Vol. 40 (2001) L989-L991
Part 2, No. 9A/B, 15 September 2001

Neutron Evolution from a Palladium Electrode by Alternate Absorption 
Treatment of Deuterium and Hydrogen

Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadashi Akimoto, Tadayoshi Ohmori, Akito Takahashi, 
Hiroshi Yamada and Hiroo Numata

(Received February 23, 2001 ; accepted for publication July 11, 2001)

Abstract:

We observed neutron emissions from palladium after it absorbed deuterium 
from heavy water followed by hydrogen from light water. The neutron count, 
the duration of the release and the time of the release after electrolysis 
was initiated all fluctuated considerably. Neutron emissions were observed 
in five out of ten test cases. In all previous experiments reported, only 
heavy water was used, and light water was absorbed only in accidental 
contamination. Compared to these deuterium results, the neutron count is 
orders of magnitude higher, and reproducibility is much improved. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 12:25:53 2001
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:26:17 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Interesting water research article
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Mitchell Jones recommended this interesting short article on water research:

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/lee-water-research.html

- JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 12:29:17 2001
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter replicated successfully..
In-Reply-To: <01101113284200.01207 tyrannosaur>
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On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Standing Bear wrote:

> 
> Dear All,
> 	If this is right, then this is a great day for humanity.
> For a practical ship to go to space using the principle of this,
> and its levitation requirement of 12 Watts per gram of providing 
> one 'g' of levitation, I suggest the following:
> 
>    An airliner sized ship weighing about 500,000 pounds or
> 250 tons would need about 18 megawatts of power.  Such

>From looking at lifter 2, 9.6 grams were lifted by 48.6 watts.
That gives 9.6 grams/48.6 watts = .2 grams/watt (I think you got 5
grams/watt, takeing 48.6 watts/9.6 grams != 5 grams/watt)

.2 grams/watt * 18e6 watts = 3,600,000 grams or 3600 kg. What's
that? About 3 tons or so, right? Seems to me, conventional aircraft are
more efficent. 

It may be possible to get 5 grams/watt. There seems room for improvement. 

Given recent events, I don't want 250 ships with fission reactors flying
around above my head anyway. What we got are bad enough. 

> could be gotten from nuclear power carried internally.  
> Scale this up to about 30,000 tons for a ship about the
> size of a large cruise ship and one would need about 2300 MW
> of power.  Seeing as the Kursk submarine carried 380 MW
> capacity in its two reactors on a medium submarine, I see
> no reason that twelve or so reactors could be built aboard
> her.  A ship that size could be outfitted with shuttle craft
> based on the same principle for checking out our local
> planets and asteroids for minerals, life, etc.  The possibilities
> for exobiological and paleoarchaeological research would
> be limitless.   Mr De Naudin just invented Star Trek
> for us, at least in our planetary system.
> 
> His invention holds, and humanity's needs for the forseeable
> future may be solved.
> 
> Standing Bear
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wednesday 10 October 2001 14:34, Colin Quinney wrote:
> > Dear Jean-Louis,
> >  
> > Merci, and thank you! (It's too bad that Transdimensional 
> Technologies didn't give the reference on their web site on how 
> to achieve the action.)
> > 
> > Dr. Mason Rose believed that this effect was a modification of 
> the local gravitational field, but... will it work in a vacuum?
> > 
> > Congratulations. Excellent replication.
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> > Colin Quinney
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   From: JNaudin509 aol.com 
> >   To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr ; djsquires@plix.com ; 
> crquin home.com 
> >   Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:26 PM
> >   Subject: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's 
> Lifter replicated successfully..
> > 
> > 
> >   Dear All,
> > 
> >   Very astonishing !!! I have replicated the 
> Transdimensional's Lifter1 and Lifter2 successfully... WOOWW... 
> > 
> >   The device SELF-LEVITATE and is able to carry a payload.
> > 
> >   On June 2001, Transdimensional Technologies has presented 
> the Lifter1 and Lifter2 devices. The Lifter1 device was built 
> with three capacitors joined so as to form a triangle assembly 
> and the Lifter2 is three time heavier and three time bigger than 
> the Lifter1. These devices are able to lift their own weight and 
> they are a "modern version" of the Townsend Brown Electrokinetic 
> Apparatus. The Lifters are using the Biefeld-Brown Effect to 
> generate the main thrust to self levitate. 
> > 
> >   I suggest you strongly to visit my web site, you will find :
> > 
> >   The replication of the Lifter1 experiment with photos and 
> videos :
> >      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter1.htm
> >   The replication of the Lifter2 experiment with photos and 
> videos :
> >      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter2.htm
> >   All the details for building and replicate yourself the 
> Lifter1 device :
> >      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftbld.htm
> > 
> >   THIS IS A VERY EXCITING AND A VERY FUN EXPERIMENT.... 
> Enjoy...
> > 
> >   Best Regards
> >   Jean-Louis Naudin
> >   Email: JNaudin509 aol.com
> >   Main Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/
> >   Alternate site : http://jnaudin.free.fr/ 
> > 
> > 
> >   ---
> >   Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> >   Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >   Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 
> 9/26/2001
> > 
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"; name="Attachment: 
> 1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Content-Description: 
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 12:41:07 2001
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Use plastic straws instead of balsam...

For more hints...see below....
especially..."hints for static device
construction"....

http://www.amasci.com/emotor/vdg.html

thank you for listening to my thoughts....

steve opelc

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 12:42:59 2001
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Kewl. So you can reduce the neutron count by making sure that you don't
contaminate with hydrogen. I think you posted some evidence for this
before, Jed. 

On the other hand, someone might intentionally poison the reaction with
hydrogen to produce neutrons. Let's hope that at a levels enough to cause
fusion that there is sufficent deuteride density to absorb the neutrons. 

On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> See:
> 
> http://www.jjap.or.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle?magazine=JJAP&volume=40&number=9A&page=L989-L991
> 
> Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. Vol. 40 (2001) L989-L991
> Part 2, No. 9A/B, 15 September 2001
> 
> Neutron Evolution from a Palladium Electrode by Alternate Absorption 
> Treatment of Deuterium and Hydrogen
> 
> Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadashi Akimoto, Tadayoshi Ohmori, Akito Takahashi, 
> Hiroshi Yamada and Hiroo Numata
> 
> (Received February 23, 2001 ; accepted for publication July 11, 2001)
> 
> Abstract:
> 
> We observed neutron emissions from palladium after it absorbed deuterium 
> from heavy water followed by hydrogen from light water. The neutron count, 
> the duration of the release and the time of the release after electrolysis 
> was initiated all fluctuated considerably. Neutron emissions were observed 
> in five out of ten test cases. In all previous experiments reported, only 
> heavy water was used, and light water was absorbed only in accidental 
> contamination. Compared to these deuterium results, the neutron count is 
> orders of magnitude higher, and reproducibility is much improved. 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 12:47:38 2001
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>On the other hand, someone might intentionally poison the reaction with 
>hydrogen to produce neutrons. Let's hope that at a levels enough to  cause 
>fusion that there is sufficent deuteride density to absorb the neutrons.

I think hydrogen contamination will always be possible. If this causes 
neutrons, a CF engine would require some sort of cheap, reliable neutron 
detector to trigger an emergency shutdown if excessive neutrons are detected.

I hope this paper offers an important clue about the mechanism for 
theorists, and I hope the theorists pay attention.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 13:18:17 2001
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:23:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
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	These cells, by no mean optimized, are any of several photo
oxides, copper, molybdenum, titanium, zinc and so on..... and the
waveleneth of their activity is lowered from the UV or blue down to IR,
broadband, by dye sensitization.  NREL and other labs report about them...
the point is you can make them at normal temperatures and pressures in the
air

On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, hank scudder wrote:

> John
> 	A quick calculation gives 0.516 mwatts for your 0.186 cm^2
> area. Multiply by 10^4 cm^2/m^2 gives 0.516*10^-3/0.186*10^4=27.7 watts
> per square meter.
> 
>  The 0.516mwatts comes from the cell having an internal
> resistance of 0.54 V/3.82 ma = 141 ohms. Using the same value for a load
> gives a maximum power transfer of (half noload volts times half short
> circuit current amps
>  0.27V * 1.91ma=0.516mwatts  	
> 
> What is your cell? 
> Hank
> 
> 
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 	Dear vo.,
> > 
> > 
> > 	I am reporting on a non silicon photo cell and maybe the math
> > wizards can help me to calculate the utility.  This was tested by NREL and
> > Swiss federal [their federal] labs.  It uses Platinum, ruthenium, titanium
> > and these are older figures... I figure it can be improved....
> > 
> > 	My personal interest is that it is not silicon so we don't need
> to
> > go up to 1800 C to make the things, and, with a little cooperation this
> > could be a kitchen table thing.
> > 
> > 	exposure is one sun and the WL it is converting is broadband 400
> > to 500 strongly and out to 700 at 80 percents quantum efficiency all of
> > these are in nanometers .... a red laser is 630 to 670 nm  418 is pale
> > blue
> > 
> > 	The test Area =			0.1863 cm
> > 	Short circuit current, Isc =	3.824 mA
> > 	max volts			0.5465
> > 	I (current) max			3.552 mA
> > 	area current SC			20.53 mA cm square
> > 	power max			1.941 milliWatts
> > 
> > 
> > 	NOW:
> > 
> > 	Figure some  size like 1 foot or 1 meter square..... and then how
> > much footage or meter-age gives us, please
> > 
> > 	1,000 watts
> > 	5,000 ""
> >        10,000 ""
> > 
> > 
> > 	To round off	figure volts to 0.5 and current to 3.0 mA and this
> > way things are conservative
> > 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 13:39:05 2001
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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011011161953.2867B-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:38:20 -0400
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Hi John,

I understand that iodine vapour will convert UV and blue light, to red and
IR.

Do you know the conversion efficiencies of the various photo oxides, or
where to find that information?

Colin


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "hank scudder" <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell


>
>
>
> These cells, by no mean optimized, are any of several photo
> oxides, copper, molybdenum, titanium, zinc and so on..... and the
> waveleneth of their activity is lowered from the UV or blue down to IR,
> broadband, by dye sensitization.  NREL and other labs report about them...
> the point is you can make them at normal temperatures and pressures in the
> air
>
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, hank scudder wrote:
>
> > John
> > A quick calculation gives 0.516 mwatts for your 0.186 cm^2
> > area. Multiply by 10^4 cm^2/m^2 gives 0.516*10^-3/0.186*10^4=27.7 watts
> > per square meter.
> >
> >  The 0.516mwatts comes from the cell having an internal
> > resistance of 0.54 V/3.82 ma = 141 ohms. Using the same value for a load
> > gives a maximum power transfer of (half noload volts times half short
> > circuit current amps
> >  0.27V * 1.91ma=0.516mwatts
> >
> > What is your cell?
> > Hank
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, John Schnurer wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear vo.,
> > >
> > >
> > > I am reporting on a non silicon photo cell and maybe the math
> > > wizards can help me to calculate the utility.  This was tested by NREL
and
> > > Swiss federal [their federal] labs.  It uses Platinum, ruthenium,
titanium
> > > and these are older figures... I figure it can be improved....
> > >
> > > My personal interest is that it is not silicon so we don't need
> > to
> > > go up to 1800 C to make the things, and, with a little cooperation
this
> > > could be a kitchen table thing.
> > >
> > > exposure is one sun and the WL it is converting is broadband 400
> > > to 500 strongly and out to 700 at 80 percents quantum efficiency all
of
> > > these are in nanometers .... a red laser is 630 to 670 nm  418 is pale
> > > blue
> > >
> > > The test Area = 0.1863 cm
> > > Short circuit current, Isc = 3.824 mA
> > > max volts 0.5465
> > > I (current) max 3.552 mA
> > > area current SC 20.53 mA cm square
> > > power max 1.941 milliWatts
> > >
> > >
> > > NOW:
> > >
> > > Figure some  size like 1 foot or 1 meter square..... and then how
> > > much footage or meter-age gives us, please
> > >
> > > 1,000 watts
> > > 5,000 ""
> > >        10,000 ""
> > >
> > >
> > > To round off figure volts to 0.5 and current to 3.0 mA and this
> > > way things are conservative
> > >
> >
>
>


---
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 14:43:29 2001
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, hamdi ucar wrote:
> 
> > (please warn me if the posting have long, long lines)
> >
> 
> > If the capacitor works in vacuum, there would be no energy consumption
> > or be greatly reduced. Tests are needed. Maybe before going to vacuum,
> > test can be performed in a bag containing air of reduced humidity or a
> > inert gas.
> 
> Since there doesn't seem to be enough ion lift to explain the experiment,
> it may not be ions. It disturbs me that this is said to work in a vacume.
> If so, I believe it is a new effect.
> 

On TDT site the effect is related to "corona" and they also said it  works in vacuum. Is a corona can be obtained in vacuum?

On the other hand, may the effect is dependent to ion generation but still the trust is provided by a novel mechanism (new physics) rather than ion momentum. If so the capacitor could work in space, but need some gases around (in a enclosure)
in order to work.



> 
> > If this is true, one limit to squeeze cell together like a grid is removed.
> 
> ?
> 

If this is true,  making a dense array of cells is not prohibited by electrostatic laws.



> > I also suggest to drive the cells with asymmetric AC signal having
> > strong second harmonics about 1kV amplitude at freq. trough few hundred
> > kHz to some MHz range.
> 
> Why?

I had seen some anomalies while working with these signals on self-resonating coils.

hamdix

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 15:33:49 2001
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Subject: Re: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter replicated  successfully..
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Gentlemen;

As I said in my posting last night, corona  (ions) are not necessary.  TT
Brown said this as well.  What IS necessary is a dielectric fluid medium to
act as a charge carrier.  The air serves this purpose well.  This is likely
the artifact that has bitten quite a few of us who have worked with HV and
electro-gravity pursuits.  It seems to have been the thrust artifact that
was dogging my spherical capacitor experiments!

Even the plastic baggie may not eliminate the effect all the way, since the
charges may well be induced on the outboard side of the plastic.  A better
test would be to use a rigid lightweight plastic box, with the balsa wood
posts glued to the bottom.  Put the unit on a scale.  If it still exhibits
the 6 some odd grams of thrust in the form of a weight loss - THEN you MIGHT
have something.

If anyone is going to replicate this, please also consider using a lit cigar
for smoke.  That way you can SEE the flow of air around the device.

The vacuum test is certainly the ultimate, but it needs to be a good vacuum,
down below any threat of ionization.  When I ran my VCG generator in vacuum
a couple of years ago, I pumped it down to below 5 x 10^-4 torr.  Lower is
better.

It would be my prediction, from having played with similar designs, that the
thrust is electro hydrodynamic, and would likely vanish in a hard vacuum.

NR


----- Original Message -----
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter
replicated successfully..


>
>
> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, hamdi ucar wrote:
> >
> > > (please warn me if the posting have long, long lines)
> > >
> >
> > > If the capacitor works in vacuum, there would be no energy consumption
> > > or be greatly reduced. Tests are needed. Maybe before going to vacuum,
> > > test can be performed in a bag containing air of reduced humidity or a
> > > inert gas.
> >
> > Since there doesn't seem to be enough ion lift to explain the
experiment,
> > it may not be ions. It disturbs me that this is said to work in a
vacume.
> > If so, I believe it is a new effect.
> >
>
> On TDT site the effect is related to "corona" and they also said it  works
in vacuum. Is a corona can be obtained in vacuum?
>
> On the other hand, may the effect is dependent to ion generation but still
the trust is provided by a novel mechanism (new physics) rather than ion
momentum. If so the capacitor could work in space, but need some gases
around (in a enclosure)
> in order to work.
>
>
>
> >
> > > If this is true, one limit to squeeze cell together like a grid is
removed.
> >
> > ?
> >
>
> If this is true,  making a dense array of cells is not prohibited by
electrostatic laws.
>
>
>
> > > I also suggest to drive the cells with asymmetric AC signal having
> > > strong second harmonics about 1kV amplitude at freq. trough few
hundred
> > > kHz to some MHz range.
> >
> > Why?
>
> I had seen some anomalies while working with these signals on
self-resonating coils.
>
> hamdix
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 18:33:47 2001
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References: <ad.119e5c5d.28f608e8 aol.com> <01c401c151d3$48d5b940$6401a8c0@cs910664a> <01101113284200.01207@tyrannosaur>
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But as Brown got it to work in a vacuum it seems it's not an ion effect.
This means that a dielectric can be used to reduce the current required significantly.
Also better insulation would allow the voltage to be increased, brown found a doubling the
voltage more than doubled the thrust.

Trying this with good insulation 100-1000 kv potential should really show some useful
thrust, at acceptable power levels.

Standing Bear wrote:

> Dear All,
>         If this is right, then this is a great day for humanity.
> For a practical ship to go to space using the principle of this,
> and its levitation requirement of 12 Watts per gram of providing
> one 'g' of levitation, I suggest the following:
>
>    An airliner sized ship weighing about 500,000 pounds or
> 250 tons would need about 18 megawatts of power.  Such
> could be gotten from nuclear power carried internally.
> Scale this up to about 30,000 tons for a ship about the
> size of a large cruise ship and one would need about 2300 MW
> of power.  Seeing as the Kursk submarine carried 380 MW
> capacity in its two reactors on a medium submarine, I see
> no reason that twelve or so reactors could be built aboard
> her.  A ship that size could be outfitted with shuttle craft
> based on the same principle for checking out our local
> planets and asteroids for minerals, life, etc.  The possibilities
> for exobiological and paleoarchaeological research would
> be limitless.   Mr De Naudin just invented Star Trek
> for us, at least in our planetary system.
>
> His invention holds, and humanity's needs for the forseeable
> future may be solved.
>
> Standing Bear
>
> On Wednesday 10 October 2001 14:34, Colin Quinney wrote:
> > Dear Jean-Louis,
> >
> > Merci, and thank you! (It's too bad that Transdimensional
> Technologies didn't give the reference on their web site on how
> to achieve the action.)
> >
> > Dr. Mason Rose believed that this effect was a modification of
> the local gravitational field, but... will it work in a vacuum?
> >
> > Congratulations. Excellent replication.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Colin Quinney
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: JNaudin509 aol.com
> >   To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr ; djsquires@plix.com ;
> crquin home.com
> >   Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:26 PM
> >   Subject: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's
> Lifter replicated successfully..
> >
> >
> >   Dear All,
> >
> >   Very astonishing !!! I have replicated the
> Transdimensional's Lifter1 and Lifter2 successfully... WOOWW...
> >
> >   The device SELF-LEVITATE and is able to carry a payload.
> >
> >   On June 2001, Transdimensional Technologies has presented
> the Lifter1 and Lifter2 devices. The Lifter1 device was built
> with three capacitors joined so as to form a triangle assembly
> and the Lifter2 is three time heavier and three time bigger than
> the Lifter1. These devices are able to lift their own weight and
> they are a "modern version" of the Townsend Brown Electrokinetic
> Apparatus. The Lifters are using the Biefeld-Brown Effect to
> generate the main thrust to self levitate.
> >
> >   I suggest you strongly to visit my web site, you will find :
> >
> >   The replication of the Lifter1 experiment with photos and
> videos :
> >      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter1.htm
> >   The replication of the Lifter2 experiment with photos and
> videos :
> >      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter2.htm
> >   All the details for building and replicate yourself the
> Lifter1 device :
> >      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftbld.htm
> >
> >   THIS IS A VERY EXCITING AND A VERY FUN EXPERIMENT....
> Enjoy...
> >
> >   Best Regards
> >   Jean-Louis Naudin
> >   Email: JNaudin509 aol.com
> >   Main Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/
> >   Alternate site : http://jnaudin.free.fr/
> >
> >
> >   ---
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
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	Dear Colin,

	I will try to go to the NREL site and find you a URL to look at,
but in brief what is happening is is parts.....

	There are the oxide, chlodides, sulphides and so on that are able
to exhibit photo conversion ... but they do not in a generally narrow
range in the 400 nm area. 
	So the next step in investigation was to use materials which would
be intermediaries .... that would be active in the other wavelengths, but
not photoconvert, but work with the conversion materials to broaden the
response.  One version the Swiss labs simply called "black dye" ...but
this was actually three or four dyes and each had activity in differing
bands...
	They called the function of the dye "Dye Sensitization" ....this
is sort of the same thing as what happens with a floursecent tube... only
bass-ackwards.... The mercury vapor plasma emission is in the short UV...
so this is used to excite phosphors which re emit at longer WL.

	Does that help this make things clearer?


	I personally want to go down some other avenues, but the basics
building blocks are there to pick and choose from.  
	Someone  here calculated 27 watts for a square meter..or maybe
yard.  10 meters, or about 40 feet by 4 feet = 270 watts  
	100 meters.....40 feet by 400 feet =  2,700 watts  

		Hey...any of you folks leap right on it if you see an error,
 I am trying to be conservative .....

	times 10 ..... 400 feet by 400 feet 27,000  watts.....


	NOW:	If you have a "farm" this size and the rate is 5 cents a
kilowatt hour ..... how much does it make, money-wise, in a 6 hour period?


					J
	

	
On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Colin Quinney wrote: 


> Hi John,
> 
> I understand that iodine vapour will convert UV and blue light, to red and
> IR.
> 
> Do you know the conversion efficiencies of the various photo oxides, or
> where to find that information?
> 
> Colin
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
> To: "hank scudder" <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
> Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 4:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > These cells, by no mean optimized, are any of several photo
> > oxides, copper, molybdenum, titanium, zinc and so on..... and the
> > waveleneth of their activity is lowered from the UV or blue down to IR,
> > broadband, by dye sensitization.  NREL and other labs report about them...
> > the point is you can make them at normal temperatures and pressures in the
> > air
> >
> > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, hank scudder wrote:
> >
> > > John
> > > A quick calculation gives 0.516 mwatts for your 0.186 cm^2
> > > area. Multiply by 10^4 cm^2/m^2 gives 0.516*10^-3/0.186*10^4=27.7 watts
> > > per square meter.
> > >
> > >  The 0.516mwatts comes from the cell having an internal
> > > resistance of 0.54 V/3.82 ma = 141 ohms. Using the same value for a load
> > > gives a maximum power transfer of (half noload volts times half short
> > > circuit current amps
> > >  0.27V * 1.91ma=0.516mwatts
> > >
> > > What is your cell?
> > > Hank
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, John Schnurer wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear vo.,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am reporting on a non silicon photo cell and maybe the math
> > > > wizards can help me to calculate the utility.  This was tested by NREL
> and
> > > > Swiss federal [their federal] labs.  It uses Platinum, ruthenium,
> titanium
> > > > and these are older figures... I figure it can be improved....
> > > >
> > > > My personal interest is that it is not silicon so we don't need
> > > to
> > > > go up to 1800 C to make the things, and, with a little cooperation
> this
> > > > could be a kitchen table thing.
> > > >
> > > > exposure is one sun and the WL it is converting is broadband 400
> > > > to 500 strongly and out to 700 at 80 percents quantum efficiency all
> of
> > > > these are in nanometers .... a red laser is 630 to 670 nm  418 is pale
> > > > blue
> > > >
> > > > The test Area = 0.1863 cm
> > > > Short circuit current, Isc = 3.824 mA
> > > > max volts 0.5465
> > > > I (current) max 3.552 mA
> > > > area current SC 20.53 mA cm square
> > > > power max 1.941 milliWatts
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > NOW:
> > > >
> > > > Figure some  size like 1 foot or 1 meter square..... and then how
> > > > much footage or meter-age gives us, please
> > > >
> > > > 1,000 watts
> > > > 5,000 ""
> > > >        10,000 ""
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To round off figure volts to 0.5 and current to 3.0 mA and this
> > > > way things are conservative
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 19:57:40 2001
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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011011214803.22244A-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 22:51:56 -0400
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John,

I found the web site.
http://www.nrel.gov/

NREL has developed 34% efficient solar electric cells.

Research Programs. Almost 50 areas of scientific investigation include basic
energy research, photovoltaics, wind energy, building technologies, advanced
vehicle technologies, solar thermal electric, hydrogen, superconductivity,
geothermal power and distributed energy resources. Many of NREL's research
achievements have been ranked among the nation's most significant technical
innovations by R&D, Discover, and Popular Science magazine.

http://www.nrel.gov/ataglance.html

Answer to math problem = $170.00

Colin

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell


>
> NOW: If you have a "farm" this size and the rate is 5 cents a
> kilowatt hour ..... how much does it make, money-wise, in a 6 hour period?
>



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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:07:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Colin Quinney <crquin home.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: 170 clams a day !!!!   Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
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	hot dog  



	cooool OH!

On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Colin Quinney wrote:

> John,
> 
> I found the web site.
> http://www.nrel.gov/
> 
> NREL has developed 34% efficient solar electric cells.
> 
> Research Programs. Almost 50 areas of scientific investigation include basic
> energy research, photovoltaics, wind energy, building technologies, advanced
> vehicle technologies, solar thermal electric, hydrogen, superconductivity,
> geothermal power and distributed energy resources. Many of NREL's research
> achievements have been ranked among the nation's most significant technical
> innovations by R&D, Discover, and Popular Science magazine.
> 
> http://www.nrel.gov/ataglance.html
> 
> Answer to math problem = $170.00
> 
> Colin
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
> 
> 
> >
> > NOW: If you have a "farm" this size and the rate is 5 cents a
> > kilowatt hour ..... how much does it make, money-wise, in a 6 hour period?
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 11 20:25:20 2001
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011011230628.24270B-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: 170 clams a day !!!!   Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
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Dear John,

You changed the subject title again. Ok now it's your turn. NREL has
developed 34% efficient solar electric cells. If the mean solar influx is
1000 watts per square meter, and  KWHr pays .05 for 6 hours, how much money
is generated with the same farm size with the more efficient solar
collectors?

Colin

JS:
Someone  here calculated 27 watts for a square meter..or maybe
yard.  10 meters, or about 40 feet by 4 feet = 270 watts
100 meters.....40 feet by 400 feet =  2,700 watts

Hey...any of you folks leap right on it if you see an error,
 I am trying to be conservative .....

times 10 ..... 400 feet by 400 feet 27,000  watts.....


NOW: If you have a "farm" this size and the rate is 5 cents a
kilowatt hour ..... how much does it make, money-wise, in a 6 hour period


---
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Subject: Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
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John:

Simple enough

There are 10000 cm^2 in a m^2

So there are 487 "test units" /m^2 or about 945mW/m^2  This offers a direct 
sunlight efficiency of an abysmal .0945% assuming the estimate of 1000W/m^2 
given by the solar community is accurate.

If you want a kitchen table process for solar collectors you might try 
electroplating and iron plate with copper (use CuSO4) Then paint the thing 
black (a thin coating of black varnish).  If you remember that the majority 
of solar radiation reaching the surface is long wave IR (heat) This process 
will likely offer about 20 times the output.  Pluss if you skip the paint 
in favor of natural oxide you can use it with a reflector arrey

At 08:49 PM 10/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
>         exposure is one sun and the WL it is converting is broadband 400
>to 500 strongly and out to 700 at 80 percents quantum efficiency all of
>these are in nanometers .... a red laser is 630 to 670 nm  418 is pale
>blue
>
>         The test Area =                 0.1863 cm
>         Short circuit current, Isc =    3.824 mA
>         max volts                       0.5465
>         I (current) max                 3.552 mA
>         area current SC                 20.53 mA cm square
>         power max                       1.941 milliWatts
>
>
>         NOW:
>
>         Figure some  size like 1 foot or 1 meter square..... and then how
>much footage or meter-age gives us, please
>
>         1,000 watts
>         5,000 ""
>        10,000 ""



_________________________________________________________
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To: <JNaudin509 aol.com>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: [Update] The New Lifter v3.0 - Photos and Videos
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Dear Jean-Louis,

This is an additional patent that utilizes ion wind.
Edwards, Harrison F. Oct 17, 1972. US3699387
IONIC WIND MACHINE

http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=3DUS3699387&CY=3Dep&LG=3Den&DB=3DE=
PD

"With the power supply   15Kv, air flow =3D 300 linear ft per minute."

"several stages may be provided.."=20

"the quantity of air moved [...] is directly proportional to the area of =
the wire mesh forming the collector plate and to the area spanned by the =
thin corona wire.." =20

"...the smaller the diameter of the corona wire, the better the wind =
generation."

"A collector plate, preferably in the form of a conductive wire mesh, is =
spaced about an inch from the corona wire.."  =20

"Since the 'electric wind' is independent of polarity, the electrodes =
may be connected to an A.C. source and wind generated even at =
frequencies up to and including R.F. frequencies."  =20

They go on to state that AC operation is 70% of DC operation for =
efficiency, but RF frequency has many advantages for size and weight =
reduction.

Best Regards,
Colin Quinney

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JNaudin509 aol.com=20
  To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr ; crquin@home.com=20
  Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 5:23 PM
  Subject: [Update] The New Lifter v3.0 - Photos and Videos


  Dear all,

  I have just updated my web site with the New Lifter v3.0.

  The Lifter v3.0 specifications

  The Lifter v3.0 uses nine asymmetrical T.T. Brown capacitors joined ( =
called cells ) so as to form a triangle assembly. Each asymmetrical =
capacitor is built with one electrode made with a thin corona wire =
placed at 30 mm from the main rectangular electrode constructed "ala" =
Townsend Brown.

  Weight : 16 g
  Main Triangle size : Equilateral with each side 600 mm wide and 40 mm =
high made with a thin aluminum sheet.
  Mounting legs : 30 mm length.
  Main frame : balsa wood 15/10 mm thick and 2 mm wide.
  Power required to compensate the weight : 45.4 Watts ( 18.45KV   2.46 =
mA )
  Power required for a stable flight above the ground : 69.5 Watts ( =
27.5 KV   2.53 mA )
  Max payload : 4 g

  Lifter v3.0 Test Results : The Lifter v3.0 is big and impressive ( 600 =
mm wide ). The Lifter v3.0 is a fascinating device, in spite of its =
weight, it is able to accelerate upwards very quickly and silently. The =
Lifter v3.0 has a weight of 16 g and is able to carry a payload up to 4 =
g.

  You will find all photos and videos of the Lifter v3.0 tests in my web =
site at :
  http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter3.htm

  Best Regards
  Jean-Louis Naudin
  Email: JNaudin509 aol.com
  Main Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/
  Alternate site : http://jnaudin.free.fr/



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Jean-Louis,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This&nbsp;is an additional patent that =
utilizes ion=20
wind.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Edwards, Harrison F. Oct 17, 1972.=20
US3699387</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>IONIC WIND MACHINE</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=3DUS3699387&amp;CY=3Dep&am=
p;LG=3Den&amp;DB=3DEPD">http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=3DUS369938=
7&amp;CY=3Dep&amp;LG=3Den&amp;DB=3DEPD</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"With the power supply   15Kv, air flow =
=3D 300=20
linear ft per minute."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"several stages may be provided.." =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"the quantity of air moved [...] is =
directly=20
proportional to the area of the wire mesh forming the collector plate =
and to the=20
area spanned by the thin corona wire.."&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"...the smaller the diameter&nbsp;of =
the corona=20
wire, the better the wind generation."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"A collector plate, preferably in the =
form of a=20
conductive wire mesh, is spaced about an inch from the corona=20
wire.."&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Since the 'electric wind' is =
independent of=20
polarity, the electrodes may be connected to an A.C. source and wind =
generated=20
even at frequencies up to and including R.F. frequencies."&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>They go on to state that AC operation =
is 70% of DC=20
operation&nbsp;for efficiency, but&nbsp;RF frequency has many advantages =
for=20
size and weight reduction.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Best Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Colin Quinney</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DJNaudin509 aol.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:JNaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dhamdix verisoft.com.tr=20
  href=3D"mailto:hamdix verisoft.com.tr">hamdix@verisoft.com.tr</A> ; <A =

  title=3Dcrquin home.com =
href=3D"mailto:crquin home.com">crquin@home.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 11, =
2001 5:23=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Update] The New =
Lifter v3.0 -=20
  Photos and Videos</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" size=3D2>Dear =
all,<BR><BR>I have=20
  just updated my web site with the New Lifter v3.0.<BR><BR></FONT><FONT =
lang=3D1=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#ff0000 =
size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B><U>The Lifter v3.0 =
specifications<BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
  lang=3D1 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></U>The Lifter v3.0 uses nine asymmetrical T.T. =
Brown=20
  capacitors joined ( called cells ) so as to form a triangle assembly. =
Each=20
  asymmetrical capacitor is built with one electrode made with a thin =
corona=20
  wire placed at 30 mm from the main rectangular electrode constructed =
"ala"=20
  Townsend Brown.<BR></B><BR><B><U>Weight</U> : 16 g</B><BR><B><U>Main =
Triangle=20
  size</U> : Equilateral with each side 600 mm wide and 40 mm high made =
with a=20
  thin aluminum sheet.</B><BR><B><U>Mounting legs</U> : 30 mm=20
  length.</B><BR><B><U>Main frame</U> : balsa wood 15/10 mm thick and 2 =
mm=20
  wide.</B><BR><B>Power required to compensate the weight : 45.4 Watts ( =
18.45KV=20
    2.46 mA )</B><BR><B>Power required for a stable flight above the =
ground :=20
  69.5 Watts ( 27.5 KV   2.53 mA )</B><BR><B>Max payload : 4=20
  g<BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D1 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#ff0000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><U>Lifter v3.0 Test =
Results</U>=20
  :</FONT><FONT lang=3D1 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"> The Lifter v3.0 is big =
and impressive=20
  ( 600 mm wide ). The Lifter v3.0 is a fascinating device, in spite of =
its=20
  weight, it is able to accelerate upwards very quickly and silently. =
The Lifter=20
  v3.0 has a weight of 16 g and is able to carry a payload up to 4=20
  g.</B><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D1 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR></FONT><FONT =
lang=3D1=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">You will find all photos and videos of the Lifter =
v3.0=20
  tests in my web site at :</FONT><FONT lang=3D1 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D3 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D1=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter3.htm">http://jnaudin.free.fr/h=
tml/lifter3.htm</A><BR><BR>Best=20
  Regards<BR>Jean-Louis Naudin<BR>Email: <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:jnaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A><BR>Main Web =
site : <A=20
  href=3D"http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/</A><BR>Alternate =
site : <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://jnaudin.free.fr/">http://jnaudin.free.fr/</A></FONT><FONT =
lang=3D1=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D1 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT lang=3D1 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000=20
  size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>---<BR>Outgoing mail is certified =
Virus=20
  Free.<BR>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (<A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.grisoft.com">http://www.grisoft.com</A>).<BR>Version: =
6.0.282=20
  / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date:=20
9/26/2001<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 02:44:26 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: neutron shielding
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	What is iirc ?


	There are many

	nickle hydride.....

On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Stephen Lajoie wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, hank scudder wrote:
> 
> Yes, that is why the department of energy was interested in metal
> hydrides, especially deuterides, a few years back. You can get up to twice
> the hydrogen density as liquid hydrogen in some rare earth metals
> according to Muller, iirc.  (which is something those skeptics on s.p.f.
> don't understand, but who cares about what they think.)
> 
> > Don't bother with boron. Just hold your breath and stay under a lot of
> > water. Hydrogen is a great stopper of neutrons.
> > 
> > Hank
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, thomas malloy wrote:
> > 
> > > Something just occurred to me. Lets say that I was holed up in a cave 
> > > or bunker and I was concerned about someone exploding a neutron bomb 
> > > overhead. So I deciede to shield it with boron, so I get some boron 
> > > and some parafin and start smearing it on the walls. Two questions 
> > > how thick would I have to make the layer and would it help. Would it 
> > > be redundant anyway if I were how many feet deep in the ground, or to 
> > > put it another way, how deep under the ground would I have to be 
> > > inorder to shield myself?
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 

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On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 05:52:09AM -0400, John Schnurer wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 	What is iirc ?

If I remember correctly.

Joe

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	Dear Folks,

	If you EVEN consider running up a 100 kv plus rig...one that has
edges..... and then getting you FACE close.... and then blowing smoke
laden with carbon particles in a stream from your MOUTH .... uh....
take out some extra ignoramium insurance riders first.... WoA!

	I remember a surprised your woman in a chemistry class who, on
being informed the HV corona had the ability to form Ozone and thet Ozone
had an odor, brought the HV exctitation coil toward her nose to find out
what it smelled like.


	The point is with HV.... you don't NEED a conductor..... it is
like to old AT and T .....
	It will Reach out and Touch Someone

	Experience dictates you do NOT need to provike it by providing any
kind of preferential path, if this can be helped!

			Woa!
	

	Note:  HV in air has been used to make quite nice fan-like breezes
from conductors with edges.  One mechanics in play is the differential
excitation of nitrogen VS oxygen ..... this fan-like effect has been used
to both circulate air and cool.

	And.... remember....running a rig up in a plastic bag... or in
vacuum does not prove gravity modification.....

	Some of the effects can include but are not limited to:


	Interaction with the feed wire [s]

	Interation with capacitive and charge coupling to
		
		air  [outside of your bell jar, for example]
		roof
		walls
		floor

	Self deposition of charge on nearly any handy surface and
interaction with this.


	Bill Beatty has a wonderful write up about fine HV "threads" which
come from all kinds of things and pointy things ....

	Bill:  Q:  How long are the threads?  A yard?

	I have seen them push stuff around


	This is a Grand Experiment.  


					JH

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 03:15:45 2001
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To: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Subject: Re: Getting Cooler  Negative Entropy Patent Issues US 6,271,614
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On Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 07:47:24PM -0400, Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:
>=20
> It is perfectly clear that nobody really understands what in the hell I h=
ave=20
> invented - but that's OK, in time it will be understood.
>=20

Hi Chris,

Sorry I've arrived late at this thread (I've still got another 3500
vortex messages in my mail box to work though and it's taking some
time).

Can I ask whether you understand what you've invented.  Have you got any
theories as to what is happening?  Did you discover this by accident or
were you working on something else when you discovered it?

I'm interested to know by what process you found yourself where you are.

Best wishes,
Joe

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 03:24:16 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
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	Dear CF,


	Beginning with 10 percent efficient cell we then

	1]	begin with iron 
	2]	plate this with copper

	??? and this gives us 20 times the output?


	I missed something ...

	With the oxide systems....

	There is a back electrode, the oxide system, the dye sensitizer, a
conductive and transparent front cover electrode ....

	Where are the electroding [s] for this method... and I am at a
loss how copper offers a direct energy conversion ...
	But, please leadme on.... I have copper sheet.


On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Charles Ford wrote:

> John:
> 
> Simple enough
> 
> There are 10000 cm^2 in a m^2
> 
> So there are 487 "test units" /m^2 or about 945mW/m^2  This offers a direct 
> sunlight efficiency of an abysmal .0945% assuming the estimate of 1000W/m^2 
> given by the solar community is accurate.
> 
> If you want a kitchen table process for solar collectors you might try 
> electroplating and iron plate with copper (use CuSO4) Then paint the thing 
> black (a thin coating of black varnish).  If you remember that the majority 
> of solar radiation reaching the surface is long wave IR (heat) This process 
> will likely offer about 20 times the output.  Pluss if you skip the paint 
> in favor of natural oxide you can use it with a reflector arrey
> 
> At 08:49 PM 10/10/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >         exposure is one sun and the WL it is converting is broadband 400
> >to 500 strongly and out to 700 at 80 percents quantum efficiency all of
> >these are in nanometers .... a red laser is 630 to 670 nm  418 is pale
> >blue
> >
> >         The test Area =                 0.1863 cm
> >         Short circuit current, Isc =    3.824 mA
> >         max volts                       0.5465
> >         I (current) max                 3.552 mA
> >         area current SC                 20.53 mA cm square
> >         power max                       1.941 milliWatts
> >
> >
> >         NOW:
> >
> >         Figure some  size like 1 foot or 1 meter square..... and then how
> >much footage or meter-age gives us, please
> >
> >         1,000 watts
> >         5,000 ""
> >        10,000 ""
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 170 clams a day !!!!   Re: Oxide and dye solar sun cell
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	Almost none..... we may be able to tool up to make the oxide cells
in the garage.... but the 34 % cells will be WAYaaayayayay out of reach.

	The thing that excites me is that it is now 'no excuse' time for
soalr cells.


	About 400  a day.... but how much do they cost?  Are they made out
of ..?  2 or 3 layers of sophisticated lattice matched vacuum plasma
deposition semiconductors?   O is it simple high grade semiconductors of
one type?

	Either way..... unless Unca Sam underwrite and pushes..... I do
not think you will be able to afford them... or maybe EVEN BUY them in
quantity!   

On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Colin Quinney wrote:

> Dear John,
> 
> You changed the subject title again. Ok now it's your turn. NREL has
> developed 34% efficient solar electric cells. If the mean solar influx is
> 1000 watts per square meter, and  KWHr pays .05 for 6 hours, how much money
> is generated with the same farm size with the more efficient solar
> collectors?
> 
> Colin
> 
> JS:
> Someone  here calculated 27 watts for a square meter..or maybe
> yard.  10 meters, or about 40 feet by 4 feet = 270 watts
> 100 meters.....40 feet by 400 feet =  2,700 watts
> 
> Hey...any of you folks leap right on it if you see an error,
>  I am trying to be conservative .....
> 
> times 10 ..... 400 feet by 400 feet 27,000  watts.....
> 
> 
> NOW: If you have a "farm" this size and the rate is 5 cents a
> kilowatt hour ..... how much does it make, money-wise, in a 6 hour period
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 9/25/2001
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 06:52:11 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: The man behind WTC Attack Revealed!
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This is dreadful! Words fail me . . . to think that an American icon -- a 
hero -- could stoop so low!

Note: It turns out the poster print shop stole the image from an Internet 
joke site. See:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/11/muppets.binladen/

- Jed

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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:23:43 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Free "sircam" virus removal program from Symantec
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This virus is programmed to delete files on Oct. 16, 2001. It is so 
serious, a free removal program is being offered by Symantec, a trustworthy 
company. See:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,47476,00.html

http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.sircam.worm mm.removal.tool.html

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 11:24:31 2001
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Subject: [FG:] Dennis Lee arrested
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See below.

Found on sci.skeptic, http://groups.google.com/groups?group=sci.skeptic

((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                              SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                              http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits     science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775      sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L 


Promoter of "free electricity" scheme arrested in Louisville, Kentucky
http://www.law.state.ky.us/news/2001rel/026%5F9oct01.htm

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: Jennifer Dean (502) 696-5637

FRANKFORT, KY (October 9, 2001) Attorney General Ben Chandler announced
today the arrest of Dennis Lee, an individual doing business under the
name of "United Community Services of America" and promoting a "free
electricity" scheme in a seminar held in Louisville, Kentucky, for
violating state consumer protection laws.  Mr. Lee also does business as
"Better World Technologies" and "International Tesla Electric Company". 

Mr. Lee has been staging sales demonstrations across the United States in
an effort to sell business opportunities.  Consumers were offered an
opportunity to purchase a dealership for selling machines that could
generate electricity for personal household use and resale to the public. 
Several experts that have reviewed Mr. Lee dismissed them as unsupported
by sound science.  Kentucky law prohibits the sale of business
opportunities without registering with the Attorney General's Office and
posting a $75,000 bond.  According to Attorney General Chandler, "My
office contacted Mr. Lee prior to his arrival in Kentucky and advised him
of the requirements of Kentucky laws governing the offering of business
opportunities and he failed to comply." 

The arrest citation charges Dennis Lee with one count of failing to
register a business opportunity, one count of failing to include the
business opportunity registration number in advertisements, and one
count of making earnings claims, all in violation of the Business
Opportunity Act.  Each violation is a Class C felony punishable by up
to 10 years in  prison.  A full cash bond of $50,000.00 was imposed
upon Lee as a condition of any release from jail.  A pre-trial hearing
has been scheduled for October 18, 2001.

The states of Vermont, Maine, Washington, Oregon, New Mexico, and
Alaska have also filed legal actions against Lee to prevent the
promotion of this free electricity scheme.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 11:51:11 2001
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Subject: Re: Cigar.....Re: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter replicated  successfully..
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On Fri, 12 Oct 2001, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 	Bill Beatty has a wonderful write up about fine HV "threads" which
> come from all kinds of things and pointy things ....
> 
> 	Bill:  Q:  How long are the threads?  A yard?


Depends on the field strength.  They're a few inches long at 5KV, several
yards long with a VanDeGraaff machine.

I'm convinced that this is the phenomenon that led to Tesla's "Death
Ray"... but he used Hg micro droplets, and accelerated them in a vaccum
across tens of megavolts using a VandeGraaff device several stories tall. 
Don't forget that a microamp flowing through a megavolt involves one watt.
Imagine if one of those "threads" was carrying 100W of kinetic energy?  It
would be like a very long #60 drill bit being run by a Dremel tool.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 12:13:03 2001
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A self-contained, maintenance free megawatt electric power generator. See:

http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=244

- JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 12:13:15 2001
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Subject: Re: [FG:] Dennis Lee arrested
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Good news! I hope they throw Lee into the can for a few years.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 12:25:37 2001
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:20:25 -0500
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From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
Subject: Magnetic scalar/vector
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Hello,

Can someone please explain, in reasonable terms, what the difference is 
between "magnetic scalar potential" and "magnetic vector potential"... 
Which of these is the one commonly called the "A field", what are the units 
of these properties, etc.

Thanks,
--Kyle

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 13:08:41 2001
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 16:06:13 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: EPRI promotes grid hybrid electric vehicles
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A "grid hybrid" is an electric vehicle (EV) with many batteries that is 
plugged in at night like a regular EV. It uses battery power until it 
reaches the limits of its range, and then recharges with a small internal 
combustion engine. A grid hybrid might get 80 to 100 mpg, compared to 
regular hybrid which gets 50 to 60 mpg. See:

http://www.epri.com/highlights.asp?objid=271005

http://www.epri.com/corporate/discover_epri/news/2001releases/010905_report1000349.pdf

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 14:14:54 2001
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:38:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
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Jed
	Some people have built trailers containing an electric generator
which they tow when they want to go on a long trip. Al Coccini of AC
Propulsion went to Washington DC and back to LA that way a few years
ago. He was the designer of the electronics in GM's EV1.

Hank


On Fri, 12 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> A "grid hybrid" is an electric vehicle (EV) with many batteries that is 
> plugged in at night like a regular EV. It uses battery power until it 
> reaches the limits of its range, and then recharges with a small internal 
> combustion engine. A grid hybrid might get 80 to 100 mpg, compared to 
> regular hybrid which gets 50 to 60 mpg. See:
> 
> http://www.epri.com/highlights.asp?objid=271005
> 
> http://www.epri.com/corporate/discover_epri/news/2001releases/010905_report1000349.pdf
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 14:14:45 2001
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:14:55 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Polaroid files for bankruptcy
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See:

http://money.cnn.com/2001/10/12/companies/polaroid/

This may seem off-topic, but it is good example of what happens when 
corporations ignore progress and technological change. The Baldwin steam 
locomotive company, DEC, Data General and many others suffered this fate. 
When digital cameras first took off, Polaroid should begun a crash program 
to sell them, or something related to them, or it should have begun an 
orderly liquidation. Instead, it tried to hang on with an obsolescent product.

Terry Blanton reported here that Shell oil is planning the transition to 
the post-oil era. Shell probably thinks it is ahead of the curve, doing 
what Polaroid and Data General should have done. They are, if the post-oil 
age looks anything like the present, with wind-power, solar and other 
chemical systems. These require massive amounts of equipment, fuel and/or 
collection area: a huge infrastructure and megatons of solids and liquids 
moving around the landscape. There would be a large demand for Shell's 
expertise in such a world. A cold fusion powered society would require 
practically none of this, and there is no way Shell oil can survive in any 
form if CF becomes a reality, no matter how clever and farsighted Shell 
executives may be. There will be no role for them.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 14:16:49 2001
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From: harvey norris <harvich yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [FG:] Dennis Lee arrested
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--- William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
> 
> See below.
> 
> Found on sci.skeptic,
> http://groups.google.com/groups?group=sci.skeptic
> 
Promoter of "free electricity" scheme arrested in
> Louisville, Kentucky
>
http://www.law.state.ky.us/news/2001rel/026%5F9oct01.htm
> 
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> CONTACT: Jennifer Dean (502) 696-5637
> 
> FRANKFORT, KY (October 9, 2001) Attorney General Ben
> Chandler announced
> today the arrest of Dennis Lee, an individual doing
> business under the
> name of "United Community Services of America" and
> promoting a "free
> electricity" scheme in a seminar held in Louisville,
> Kentucky, for
> violating state consumer protection laws.  Mr. Lee
> also does business as
> "Better World Technologies" and "International Tesla
> Electric Company". 
> 
> Mr. Lee has been staging sales demonstrations across
> the United States in
> an effort to sell business opportunities.  Consumers
> were offered an
> opportunity to purchase a dealership for selling
> machines that could
> generate electricity for personal household use and
> resale to the public. 
> Several experts that have reviewed Mr. Lee dismissed
> them as unsupported
> by sound science.  Kentucky law prohibits the sale
> of business
> opportunities without registering with the Attorney
> General's Office and
> posting a $75,000 bond.  According to Attorney
> General Chandler, "My
> office contacted Mr. Lee prior to his arrival in
> Kentucky and advised him
> of the requirements of Kentucky laws governing the
> offering of business
> opportunities and he failed to comply." 
> 
> The arrest citation charges Dennis Lee with one
> count of failing to
> register a business opportunity, one count of
> failing to include the
> business opportunity registration number in
> advertisements, and one
> count of making earnings claims, all in violation of
> the Business
> Opportunity Act.  Each violation is a Class C felony
> punishable by up
> to 10 years in  prison.

I beleive if people are stupid enough to beleive
Dennis Lee, that should be their own punishment.
They should only be punished by their own gullibility.

The moment the feds are given empowerment to "act in
the interests of the people", although the feds arent
strictly involved here, they will distort that
perspective.

Eff their damn laws to begin with. Everytime I hear
the word "felony", I understand the persecution  of
the government. they are the worst definition of
criminals far past Dennis Lee.

Harvey D Norris, a possible felon according to every
definiton..... or was that something else      BYE









  A full cash bond of
> $50,000.00 was imposed
> upon Lee as a condition of any release from jail.  A
> pre-trial hearing
> has been scheduled for October 18, 2001.
> 
> The states of Vermont, Maine, Washington, Oregon,
> New Mexico, and
> Alaska have also filed legal actions against Lee to
> prevent the
> promotion of this free electricity scheme.
> 
Guess the good guys are happy now.
Now for a excursion to other places.
Place your total trust in the government, and sign up
now before it is too late to voice a protest. Make
sure you protest all in the same way. HDN


=====
Binary Resonant System  http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 14:28:44 2001
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:26:01 -0400
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Subject: Re: [FG:] Dennis Lee arrested
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harvey norris wrote:

>I beleive if people are stupid enough to beleive
>Dennis Lee, that should be their own punishment.
>They should only be punished by their own gullibility.

That standard would do away with all laws against fraud, including consumer 
fraud, bank fraud and so on. Such things have been illegal for centuries. 
If the government does not protect stupid people, helpless widows and 
underage orphans, what good is it? Why have a government if it does not 
fulfill its most basic roles, such as collecting garbage, fighting wars, 
and protecting stupid people from clever criminals.

When the government tries to develop tokamak fusion power, you could argue 
it is overextended, and it is a fish out of water. The government has 
seldom shown a talent for low-level dabbling in commercial development. It 
is only good for broad, basic policy, such as encouraging and paying for 
the first railroads, land grant colleges, the first computers, the 
Internet, and so on. Arresting people like Dennis Lee and shooting people 
like bin Laden are tasks that only the government can or should perform.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 15:30:17 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Oct 12, 2001
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:02:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 12 Oct 01   Washington, DC

1. 2001 NOBEL PRIZE IN PHYSICS: THE BOSE-EINSTEIN CONDENSATE. 
Two Americans, Eric Cornell of NIST in Boulder and Carl Wieman of
the University of Colorado in Boulder, both at JILA, shared the
prize with Wolfgang Ketterle, a German citizen on the faculty at
MIT. Based on the work of S.N. Bose, Einstein predicted this new,
very-cold state of matter in 1924, but Bill Phillips at NIST had
yet to invent laser cooling.  It won him the 1997 Nobel Prize.  

2. PASCAL'S WAGER:  THE PODKLETNOV GRAVITY SHIELD STRIKES OUT. In
1992, Russian physicist Eugene Podkletnov claimed that objects
above a spinning superconducting disk show a 2 percent loss in
weight.  Why this should be so wasn't too clear, but it would be
great for launching spacecraft, and you could build a perpetual
motion machine.  There are two possibilities: either this obscure
Russian was mistaken, or the First Law of Thermodynamics is
wrong.  NASA put its money on Podkletnov (WN 15 Aug 97).  Four
years and $1M later, NASA thought maybe they saw a weight change
of 2 parts per million, but couldn't be sure.  "Maybe you need a
bigger disk," Podkletnov suggested.  That led to another $1M and
another four years.  Finally, at a conference on propulsion this
year, NASA said that tests on the new shield were "inconclusive." 
That's NASA-talk for "it didn't work," but if NASA just said, "it
didn't work," they would have to explain why they spent all that
money an idea that violates the First Law.  In fairness, however,
we must point out that NASA also supported Ketterle's beautiful
work on BE condensates. Hmmm. Perhaps there's more than one NASA.

3. HIGH ENERGY: GIANT ACCELERATOR FACES A COST-OVERRUN CRISIS. 
The cost of developing the superconducting magnets for the Large
Hadron Collider at CERN has led to overruns approaching $1B. 
Sound familiar?  Building the "world's most powerful accelerator"
means pushing magnet technology to a new limit.  Cost overruns
linked to the magnets doomed Isabelle in the early 80's, and the
Superconducting Supercollider a decade later.  Another decade has
passed and the LHC is projecting a major overrun on magnet costs. 

4. SECRECY: BUSH BACKS DOWN ON KEEPING INFORMATION FROM CONGRESS.
In times of grave national threats, people in every country trade
freedom for security.  It is, however, often difficult to restore
those freedoms once the crisis passes.  Angry that some lawmakers
had apparently leaked classified information to the media prior
to the attacks on Afghanistan, the President issued an order that
barred all but a few key members from briefings.  Senator Daschle
insisted, however, that to fulfill its oversight responsibility,
several committees must get secret information.  In some cases,
the law specifically identifies which committees must be kept
informed.  Still, it seems that in the present crisis, briefings 
on national security matters will be more limited.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. 
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 17:03:10 2001
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Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:04:08 -0700
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> A cold fusion powered society would require
> practically none of this, and there is no way Shell oil can survive in any
> form if CF becomes a reality, no matter how clever and farsighted Shell
> executives may be. There will be no role for them.

Someone has to build my CF Sterling Home Generator.

Didn't Shell sponsor early CF (semi-public) research?

Regards,

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 17:40:20 2001
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From: antigrav ihug.co.nz
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At http://emcohighvoltage.com/ they have a 10kv unit weighing 28.3 grams.

It might be possible to get a specially made lighter version.

At www.voltagemultipliers.com then have voltage multipliers that must be even lighter.

While the current requirements for the lifter would need to be drastically reduced, it
seems that it might just be possible to make one that can lift it's own powersupply.

The other idea of course it to use a static machine of some type.
This would be a good option if a higher voltage cell design was used.

The above companies might even consider donating a suitable power supply if you showed
them one with good demonstration showing it isn't ionic wind.
Especially if you have it planned to go out into outer space.


John Berry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 18:23:48 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New paper by Mizuno et al. in JJAP
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 11:22:50 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:47:38 -0400:
[snip]
>I hope this paper offers an important clue about the mechanism for 
>theorists, and I hope the theorists pay attention.
[snip]
According to http://atom.kaeri.re.kr/cgi-bin/nuclide?nuc=H-4 there is a
meta state of H4 that is stable (spin 1/2 +), and the spin 2- state
comprises 0.000137% of normal Hydrogen.
If so, then in a cathode preloaded with D, the following reaction should
be possible:

H4 + D -> He4 + 2 n + 20.5 MeV

For in as much as T is also present, then the reaction

T + D -> He4 + n + 17.6 MeV 

should also occur, especially if the light water used is reasonably
fresh (as in freshly made), and collected not long after a CME and a
storm (i.e. before too much of the T has decayed).

Note however that 

H + H4 -> He4 + n + 22.7 MeV

should also be possible, so preloading with D should not be a
prerequisite of neutron detection, unless there is much more T in the
light water than H4.




Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Geothermal "power tube"
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:09:51 +1000
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:12:51 -0400:

>A self-contained, maintenance free megawatt electric power generator. See:
>
>http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=244
>
>- JR
They don't seem to say anything about where the rejected heat is dumped.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 20:00:16 2001
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 successfully..
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Nick Reiter wrote:
> 
> Gentlemen;
> 
> As I said in my posting last night, corona  (ions) are not necessary.  TT
> Brown said this as well.  What IS necessary is a dielectric fluid medium to
> act as a charge carrier.  The air serves this purpose well.  This is likely
> the artifact that has bitten quite a few of us who have worked with HV and
> electro-gravity pursuits.  It seems to have been the thrust artifact that
> was dogging my spherical capacitor experiments!
> 
> Even the plastic baggie may not eliminate the effect all the way, since the
> charges may well be induced on the outboard side of the plastic.  A better
> test would be to use a rigid lightweight plastic box, with the balsa wood
> posts glued to the bottom.  Put the unit on a scale.  If it still exhibits
> the 6 some odd grams of thrust in the form of a weight loss - THEN you MIGHT
> have something.
> 
> If anyone is going to replicate this, please also consider using a lit cigar
> for smoke.  That way you can SEE the flow of air around the device.
> 
> The vacuum test is certainly the ultimate, but it needs to be a good vacuum,
> down below any threat of ionization.  When I ran my VCG generator in vacuum
> a couple of years ago, I pumped it down to below 5 x 10^-4 torr.  Lower is
> better.
> 
> It would be my prediction, from having played with similar designs, that the
> thrust is electro hydrodynamic, and would likely vanish in a hard vacuum.
> 
> NR
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 5:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter
> replicated successfully..
> 
> >
> >
> > Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, hamdi ucar wrote:
> > >
> > > > (please warn me if the posting have long, long lines)
> > > >
> > >
> > > > If the capacitor works in vacuum, there would be no energy consumption
> > > > or be greatly reduced. Tests are needed. Maybe before going to vacuum,
> > > > test can be performed in a bag containing air of reduced humidity or a
> > > > inert gas.
> > >
> > > Since there doesn't seem to be enough ion lift to explain the
> experiment,
> > > it may not be ions. It disturbs me that this is said to work in a
> vacume.
> > > If so, I believe it is a new effect.
> > >
> >
> > On TDT site the effect is related to "corona" and they also said it  works
> in vacuum. Is a corona can be obtained in vacuum?
> >
> > On the other hand, may the effect is dependent to ion generation but still
> the trust is provided by a novel mechanism (new physics) rather than ion
> momentum. If so the capacitor could work in space, but need some gases
> around (in a enclosure)
> > in order to work.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > If this is true, one limit to squeeze cell together like a grid is
> removed.
> > >
> > > ?
> > >
> >
> > If this is true,  making a dense array of cells is not prohibited by
> electrostatic laws.
> >
> >
> >
> > > > I also suggest to drive the cells with asymmetric AC signal having
> > > > strong second harmonics about 1kV amplitude at freq. trough few
> hundred
> > > > kHz to some MHz range.
> > >
> > > Why?
> >
> > I had seen some anomalies while working with these signals on
> self-resonating coils.
> >
> > hamdix
> >
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 21:40:32 2001
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On Thursday 04 October 2001 15:08, thomas malloy wrote:
> I'm attempting to figure out how to dissolve what I assume is 
an Iron 
> deposit in a sewer pipe. I can get water to slow drain through 
it, I 
> put enzyme in the water and that didn't unblock it. I decided 
that 
> acetic acid might unblock it. That made it worse. I'm limited 
in the 
> chemical I can use because they have a septic tank which I 
don't want 
> to poison. Any suggestions?
> -- 
> 
> 
Go to your hardware store and get a half gallon of 
concentrated H2SO4.  Pour this down the drain.
Use a motorcycle helmet with face sheild in place
as you are pouring. ....slowlyyy!  Also use long sleeves and 
gloves.  Get any on you, you have 10 seconds to
get it off.  After adding the stuff, add boiling
water slowly  at arms length with a long handle
pan.  
	It won't 'poison' your septic tank.  I
live in an old trailer park and have drain problems
from time to time.  Most of your 'drain openers'
only succeed in opening your wallet and draining
your cash.  If anything has a chance of working
that you can add from a jug, it will be this concentrate.
It is a known dewaterer of organic materials and
will dissolve iron to FeSO4, generating hydrogen.
Do not smoke when you do this.
	If this does not open your drain, then 
call your rotor tooooter man.  Do not try to use
the various 'snakes' that you can buy in the 'consumer'
market.  They are junk;  at best they will either fail
to open the clog more than marginally;  at worst
they will break in the line and force you into a
huge expense for a backhoe or construction
crews in a building to remove the broken
snake.  You WILL have to pay to do this if you
break your snake in such a line, as you will not
have any insurance that businesses carry and
neither will you have the equipment and experience
to handle such a job.  A broken snake is a magnet
for all undissolved toilet paper and floating
or dense feces.  The resulting clog will totally block
tha drain independantly of the original blockage.
	The professionals have better equipment
and carry insurance in case of trouble.  Their snakes
will not coil and catch on internal bends in the
waste line like the thin and flimsy cables and tapes
that you can buy in the consumer market.  The
commercial outfit's snake is about 1/2 to 5/8 inches
in diameter with a spinning knife set at the end
drawing power from a motor at the input end 
of the flexible transmission line that is their 'snake'.
Your snakes only rotate slowly under hand power.
Believe me, I have been through this many more
times than I care to remember.  Oh yes, If the
acid does not work, do not even think to try to
add something else, especially a strong base
like 'King Of All' (a galllon can of lie chips).
The resulting explosion will spatter caustic
and corrosive liquid and vapor all around the
drain and possibly elseware.  Remember, in an
old place, an iron pipe that was originally
1/8" in diameter is probably now only that
thick on the top and paper thin on the bottom.
MANY other folks besides yours truly have gone
before you to the 'breach', adding God knows
what over the years to that very same pipe.
By the way, iron rarely gets 'deposited' in pipes.
The usual stuff in clogs is hair and soap scum
and roots..........many roots.  Sometimes you
will get interesting things out of sewers.  Petrified
baby diapers, wigs, deodorant roll on bottles,
beer cans, old condoms and tampaxes, a dead
rat for body..........a regular Kikapoo Joy Juice.

Standing Bear
                    ........yeah!  I know what the 'trailer park'
 women with the 'big hair' and lion claw nails throw
down the toilet thinking no one else will EVER
see it again!............HAH! 

Hairpins....knitting needles.....yeah, probably stuck
their husbands with that when they came home
drunk........cigarettes.......ceeeegars (no, not the
ones supposedly used by Ms Lewinski...ole Bill 
got all those).......

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 12 21:46:41 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Cheap D source ?
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:45:58 +1000
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

I just found this http://www.matimop.org.il/newrdinf/company/c2947.htm .
It's a company that claims to have a new and very effective method of
separating light isotopes.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 01:09:34 2001
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Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 03:07:12 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetic scalar/vector
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: Magnetic scalar/vector</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Hello,<br>
<br>
Can someone please explain, in reasonable terms, what the difference
is between &quot;magnetic scalar potential&quot; and &quot;magnetic
vector potential&quot;... Which of these is the one commonly called
the &quot;A field&quot;, what are the units of these properties,
etc.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
--Kyle</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>I can talk around the phenomena. Look up a series of three
patents by Gelinas which details a communication system involving curl
free magnetic vector potentials. also check out this URL,<font
face="Helvetica" size="+2" color="#000000">
http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos.html</font> it shows various
wave forms.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I have a long time interest in sympathetic vibrational physics,
the webmaster of this URL<font face="Helvetica" size="+2"
color="#000000"> http://www.svpvril.com</font> Dale Pond has been
attempting to replicate some of the machines of John E W Keely. Tom
Valone of Integrity Reserach Institute has also written on the
phenomena. These waves are reported to be produced by Caducis coils,
and T wave guides, so you might read about them.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Sam Faile whose address has recently posted on this list has
researched the interaction of gravity and electromagnetism.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Tom Bearden another F E researcher who is frequently quoted on
this forum has also published on longitudinal waves. Maxwell's book,
Electricity and Magnetism, was originally written in quaternion
mathematics. Whittaker published a paper in 1903 which addressed this
subject, Tom published at least one paper on this.I have long been
interested in this matter, but I am a mathematical dunce. If you have
a person who is literate in mathematics and wants to investigate the
subject I have a URL on quaternions.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I assume that the research that Hutchinson is doing involves
these waves too.&nbsp; </div>
<x-sigsep><pre>-- 
</pre></x-sigsep>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 03:38:30 2001
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Hi,

This off topic but want to share my ideas on the anthrax threat.

First, "do not open suspected letters" does not work. Just pickup some magazines from a book store, grab some self paid subscription or information request envelops, add some hazardous material and drop it in the mail box. 

Only way to prevent it is to sterilize them with high temperature, microwave or with intense x or other ionizing radiations.

Such of sterilizing stations should be build on main post offices.

Of course, this may only prevent biological threats not chemicals.

So mail receiving personel of companies should wear protective things and operate in isolated rooms.

Home users may use their microwave ovens to cook their mails. Anybody knows how microwave ovens are effective to microbes in dry environment?

We should thanks to god that we are pure biological entities, emails be considered safe yet.

Regards,

hamdi

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 03:51:56 2001
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http://users.telemail.it/gmodanese/forum.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 04:48:53 2001
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Hi Hamdi.
I twisted the "rubber" leads of the DVM together so that the overall length was ~ 1.3
meters, still using the 1.0 megohm resistor clipped across the lead ends.

If you rub the leads with your fingertips, or allow the leads
to rub over something, the meter reading goes up to a few millivolts on the 300
millivolt scale.

Two "artifacts" are occurring here;

1, A "triboelectric" or electrostatic rubbing effect.

2, A capacitive-generator effect, where the work put into handling the leads causes an
change in capacitance that
feeds the energy change dW =  d(0.5CV^2) back into
the meter as a voltage change.

OTOH, if you let the twisted pair leads  swing vertically like a pendulum, with the
meter held high in the air with one hand, the reading varies between 0.1 to ~ 1.5
millivolts, which is almost an order of magnitude greater than one would expect from a
voltage, V = v*l*B caused by the ~2.6 meter total lead length moving through the ~
5.0E-5 Tesla Geomagnetic Field.

Regards,    Frederick

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Subject: Re: OT - Sterilizing the only way to prevent bioterror via mails
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----- Original Message -----
From: "hamdi ucar" <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 5:35 AM
Subject: OT - Sterilizing the only way to prevent bioterror via mails

Hamdi wrote:


> Hi,
>
> This off topic but want to share my ideas on the anthrax threat.
>
> First, "do not open suspected letters" does not work. Just pickup some magazines
from a book store, grab some self paid subscription or information request envelops,
add some hazardous material and drop it in the mail box.
>
> Only way to prevent it is to sterilize them with high temperature, microwave or with
intense x or other ionizing radiations.

Microwaves DO NOT EFFECTIVELY sterilize bacterial spores, Hamdi, but the radiation
from Cs137 does.

So will the free radical Hydrogen and Oxygen in Brown's Gas.

>
> Such of sterilizing stations should be build on main post offices.
>
> Of course, this may only prevent biological threats not chemicals.
>
> So mail receiving personnel of companies should wear protective things and operate
in isolated rooms.
>
> Home users may use their microwave ovens to cook their mails. Anybody knows how
microwave ovens are effective to microbes in dry environment?

Not good. Neither is dry heat, that is why they use steam at > 250 F or Ethylene Oxide
and more recently the Free
Radicals created by thermal/plasma destruction of Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2):
H2O2 + energy --->  OH + O + H etc.

NOx and Ozone do this also. These can be created with
Ultraviolet light in the 254 to 310 nanometer range.
>
> We should thanks to god that we are pure biological entities, emails be considered
safe yet.

Yes.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> hamdi
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 07:52:21 2001
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Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 07:46:08 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: New paper by Mizuno et al. in JJAP
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From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

This is the first time I have seen this theory and reference, and it is
pretty amazing if true. This isotope does NOT show up in any of the tables
that I have (a dozen or so, but the AMU update wasn't submitted till 1995).
If it were true, and the isotope was both natural and unstable, then there
should be a large radiation signature coming from the ocean - as for
instance. If the half life were less or near the 12 years of 3H, then
hundreds of decays per cubic mile of seawater should be taking place, and at
about 3 MeV per decay, it would be damn hard to hide.

The only other possibilities is that the 4H isotope is completely STABLE as
is claimed for the meta-state, or that it is somehow totally absent from
seawater, but in the first case, it should have been picked up in mass spec
work 50 years ago (unless it was mistaken for normall He, but this is
unlikely because the mass difference, while slight is still well within the
range of what should have been noticed particularly at specialized
facilities like heavy water suppliers.

The only option that makes sense is that it is so difficult to form in
nature that it seldom occurs naturally (even from cosmic ray bombardment)
and also that it is so unstable that it must be manufactured in situ, as in
the case where it is to be useful for excess energy production, i.e. CF.
This presents interesting possibilities.

> According to http://atom.kaeri.re.kr/cgi-bin/nuclide?nuc=H-4 there is a
> meta state of H4 that is stable (spin 1/2 +), and the spin 2- state
> comprises 0.000137% of normal Hydrogen.

> If so, then in a cathode preloaded with D, the following reaction should
> be possible:

> H4 + D -> He4 + 2 n + 20.5 MeV

For the sake of clarity, what you have listed above as "H4" should probably
be shown as 4H, so as not to confuse it with some kind of molecular state,
but even so, you probably don't really need any fusion reaction at all (for
OU) - as the decay alone is very energetic.

If you can catalytically make the 4H isotope (in an appropriate matrix like
Pd) for less (of an energy expenditure) then the decay energy, then you
don't need any fusion to explain the excess heat in the ~99 % of all CF
experiments that have shown excess heat without fusion ash (the original P&F
work).

Very interesting but still less compelling then the argument for hydrinos -
if only because we still do NOT see that 3 MeV signature, which would be
impossible to hide if it were there.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 08:20:02 2001
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On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, John Schnurer wrote:

> 	I am reporting on a non silicon photo cell and maybe the math
> wizards can help me to calculate the utility.  This was tested by NREL and
> Swiss federal [their federal] labs.  It uses Platinum, ruthenium, titanium
> and these are older figures... I figure it can be improved....


Here is a website for home-made solar cells using TiO and...  blackberry
juice!   It apparantly harnesses biological photosynthesis.  The only hard
part is firing the TiO onto the conductive glass.

   http://www.solideas.com/solrcell/cellkit.html
   http://www.solideas.com/solrcell/english.html


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 08:27:07 2001
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On Fri, 12 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Good news! I hope they throw Lee into the can for a few years.

But the bail is only $50K.    I bet Lee gets that much money from a SINGLE
victim.


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William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 10:23:25 2001
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To: JNaudin509 aol.com
cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: Naudin's Transdimensional Lifter
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On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Colin Quinney wrote:
>   From: JNaudin509 aol.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:26 PM
>   Subject: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter replicated successfully..
> 
>   Dear All,
>   Very astonishing !!! I have replicated the Transdimensional's Lifter1
> and Lifter2 successfully... WOOWW...

Very cool device!   But what about the "plastic bag" test to eliminate any
air thrust?



      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter1.htm
      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter2.htm
      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter3.htm
      http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftbld.htm

      http://www.entrenet.com/~stevend/lifter/lifter.htm

Idea: try using the very thin tungsten wire from an old photocopier.  That
might give the same lift at lower voltage (less watts.)

However, if you want to exclude ion wind, you CANNOT just add a cardboard
plate.  Ion wind will follow the lines of electrostatic field, and unlike
regular wind, it can divert around an insulating obstacle. 

Try using incense to make a smoke cloud above and below the suspended
device when it is inactive, then turn it on.  If it's ion wind, the
downdraft will be very obvious. 

Or try painting the single wire with several layers of high-voltage paint
(corona dope).   This should stop any ion flow but without distorting the
shape of the e-fields.

Or simply enclose the device within a thin plastic bag in order to
eliminate any air-jets which might be producing a reaction force.

On the other hand, to optimize the ion wind you should use VERY thin wire
in order to promote corona at lower voltage (less watts), and also fold
over the edges of the aluminum foil in order to eliminate the
opposite-polarity ion wind which comes from the sharp edge of the wide
electrode.  Also put corona dope on any sharp points on the foil corners. 




Since one form of "ion wind fan" is made from a thin wire and a wide
metal plate, I'd say that the levitator is probably run by air thrust.

To intentionally produce ion wind, ideally you need one sharp electrode
and one non-sharp electrode.  If TWO sharp electrodes were used, then this
would produce opposite flows of ions, which would greatly slow or even
eliminate the overall "wind."  A one-dimensional ion wind generator takes
the form of a needle which is aimed at a hollow metal tube.  A
two-dimimensional version takes the form of a very thin wire held near the
edge of a metal plate.  The thin wire is "sharp" because of the high
curvature.  The edges of the metal plate should NOT be sharp (use a thick
plate with rounded edges, or make a flat plate by flattening a thin-walled
tube.)


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William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 11:10:37 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
        "ou-Builders" <ou-builders yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Mercury Arc Anomalous Force Experiment.
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:19:11 -0400
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Hi All.

A while back, some backchannel discussion with a few vortex
members centered around anomalous forces in electric discharges.
I decided at the urging of Fred Sparber to perform an experiment
to see if such forces could be seen in a mercury arc discharge.
The results of that experiment appear here.

http://www.gis.net/~knagel/

Click on the 10.19.01 link and you'll get to the experiment.

Comments?

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 14:11:12 2001
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
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Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:09:18 EDT
Subject: [Info] Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology 
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FYI see at :

<A HREF="http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html">http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html</A>

<<Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology

Transdimensional Technologies LLC (<A HREF="http://www.tdimension.com/">http://www.tdimension.com</A>) of Huntsville 
is developing a new, propellantless propulsion system. Called Power3 
(pronounced "power cubed"), the system uses an asymmetric capacitor to charge 
ion particles around an object. Electron movement between these particles 
generates force, moving the object in the direction desired. The system, 
tested before the public for the first time on June 20, 2001, has been the 
pet project of Transdimensional's founder, Jeffery Cameron, for most of his 
professional career.    

The Power3 technology was first tested using a small rotor in a vacuum at the 
National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Marshall Space Flight Center 
in Huntsville (<A HREF="http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/">http://www.msfc.nasa.gov</A>). NASA officials also attended the 
June 20 demonstration, which involved a larger, triangular lifter made almost 
entirely of pipe. Transdimensional has collaborated with NASA on other 
projects. "Obviously, we'd like to see even more NASA involvement in our 
work," says marketing director Wade Preston, one of Transdimensional's five 
employees. This is not the first propulsion technology Cameron has developed. 
Transdimensional's president and chief scientist also has patents pending on 
systems involving magnetocaloric hybrid rocket engines, beamed 
photodecomposition and assymmetric gravitational waves. The last of these is 
often confused with the Power3 technology, according to Preston. 

The scientific community has also mistaken Power3 for ion wind propulsion, 
although Transdimensional says ion wind contributes less than 2 percent of 
the system's total motive force. 

Power3 has its limitations. Current power supplies have been located only on 
the ground, though Transdimensional says putting them onboard the objects 
that are being propelled should not be difficult. Since the system is 
electric in nature, current battery storage limits could also be a problem, 
though the company claims little power is required. And the design of the 
objects that have been successfully lifted so far is too basic for commercial 
purposes.    

>>

Best Regards
Jean-Louis Naudin
Email: <A HREF="mailto:jnaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A>
Main Web site : <A HREF="http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/</A>
Alternate site : <A HREF="http://jnaudin.free.fr/">http://jnaudin.free.fr/ </A>

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<BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1">FYI see at :<BR>
<BR>
<A HREF="http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html">http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html</A><BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><B>Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="S


ANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><BR>
<P ALIGN=CENTER><BR>
<P ALIGN=LEFT></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Verdana" LANG="1"></B>Transdimensional Technologies LLC (<A HREF="http://www.tdimension.com/">http://www.tdimension.com</A>) of Huntsville is dev


eloping a new, propellantless propulsion system. Called Power3 (pronounced "power cubed"), the system uses an asymmetric capacitor to charge ion particles around an object. Electron movement between these particles generates force, moving the object in th


e direction desired. The system, tested before the public for the first time on June 20, 2001, has been the pet project of Transdimensional's founder, Jeffery Cameron, for most of his professional career.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" st


yle="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Verdana" LANG="1"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><B>The Power3 technology was first tested using a small rotor in a vacuum at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Marshall Space


 Flight Center in Huntsville</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"></B> (<A HREF="http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/">http://www.msfc.nasa.gov</A>). NASA officials also attended the June 20 d


emonstration, which involved a larger, triangular lifter made almost entirely of pipe. Transdimensional has collaborated with NASA on other projects. "Obviously, we'd like to see even more NASA involvement in our work," says marketing director Wade Presto


n, one of Transdimensional's five employees. This is not the first propulsion technology Cameron has developed. Transdimensional's president and chief scientist also has patents pending on systems involving magnetocaloric hybrid rocket engines, beamed pho


todecomposition and assymmetric gravitational waves. The last of these is often confused with the Power3 technology, according to Preston. <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><B>The scientific community has also mistaken Power3 for ion wind propulsion, although Transdimensional says ion wind contributes less than 2 p


ercent of the system's total motive force. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"></B><BR>
<BR>
Power3 has its limitations. Current power supplies have been located only on the ground, though Transdimensional says putting them onboard the objects that are being propelled should not be difficult. Since the system is electric in nature, current batter


y storage limits could also be a problem, though the company claims little power is required. And the design of the objects that have been successfully lifted so far is too basic for commercial purposes.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
Best Regards<BR>
Jean-Louis Naudin<BR>
Email: <A HREF="mailto:jnaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A><BR>
Main Web site : <A HREF="http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/</A><BR>
Alternate site : <A HREF="http://jnaudin.free.fr/">http://jnaudin.free.fr/ </A></P></P></FONT></HTML>

--part1_86.1102b337.28fa077e_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 14:11:14 2001
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
Message-ID: <171.2539e43.28fa07ed aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:11:09 EDT
Subject: [Info] Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology 
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FYI see at :

<A HREF="http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html">http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html</A>

<<Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology

Transdimensional Technologies LLC (<A HREF="http://www.tdimension.com/">http://www.tdimension.com</A>) of Huntsville 
is developing a new, propellantless propulsion system. Called Power3 
(pronounced "power cubed"), the system uses an asymmetric capacitor to charge 
ion particles around an object. Electron movement between these particles 
generates force, moving the object in the direction desired. The system, 
tested before the public for the first time on June 20, 2001, has been the 
pet project of Transdimensional's founder, Jeffery Cameron, for most of his 
professional career.    

The Power3 technology was first tested using a small rotor in a vacuum at the 
National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Marshall Space Flight Center 
in Huntsville (<A HREF="http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/">http://www.msfc.nasa.gov</A>). NASA officials also attended the 
June 20 demonstration, which involved a larger, triangular lifter made almost 
entirely of pipe. Transdimensional has collaborated with NASA on other 
projects. "Obviously, we'd like to see even more NASA involvement in our 
work," says marketing director Wade Preston, one of Transdimensional's five 
employees. This is not the first propulsion technology Cameron has developed. 
Transdimensional's president and chief scientist also has patents pending on 
systems involving magnetocaloric hybrid rocket engines, beamed 
photodecomposition and assymmetric gravitational waves. The last of these is 
often confused with the Power3 technology, according to Preston. 

The scientific community has also mistaken Power3 for ion wind propulsion, 
although Transdimensional says ion wind contributes less than 2 percent of 
the system's total motive force. 

Power3 has its limitations. Current power supplies have been located only on 
the ground, though Transdimensional says putting them onboard the objects 
that are being propelled should not be difficult. Since the system is 
electric in nature, current battery storage limits could also be a problem, 
though the company claims little power is required. And the design of the 
objects that have been successfully lifted so far is too basic for commercial 
purposes.    

>>

Best Regards
Jean-Louis Naudin
Email: <A HREF="mailto:jnaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A>
Main Web site : <A HREF="http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/</A>
Alternate site : <A HREF="http://jnaudin.free.fr/">http://jnaudin.free.fr/ </A>

--part1_171.2539e43.28fa07ed_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1">FYI see at :<BR>
<BR>
<A HREF="http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html">http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html</A><BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><B>Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="S


ANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><BR>
<P ALIGN=CENTER><BR>
<P ALIGN=LEFT></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Verdana" LANG="1"></B>Transdimensional Technologies LLC (<A HREF="http://www.tdimension.com/">http://www.tdimension.com</A>) of Huntsville is dev


eloping a new, propellantless propulsion system. Called Power3 (pronounced "power cubed"), the system uses an asymmetric capacitor to charge ion particles around an object. Electron movement between these particles generates force, moving the object in th


e direction desired. The system, tested before the public for the first time on June 20, 2001, has been the pet project of Transdimensional's founder, Jeffery Cameron, for most of his professional career.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" st


yle="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Verdana" LANG="1"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><B>The Power3 technology was first tested using a small rotor in a vacuum at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Marshall Space


 Flight Center in Huntsville</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"></B> (<A HREF="http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/">http://www.msfc.nasa.gov</A>). NASA officials also attended the June 20 d


emonstration, which involved a larger, triangular lifter made almost entirely of pipe. Transdimensional has collaborated with NASA on other projects. "Obviously, we'd like to see even more NASA involvement in our work," says marketing director Wade Presto


n, one of Transdimensional's five employees. This is not the first propulsion technology Cameron has developed. Transdimensional's president and chief scientist also has patents pending on systems involving magnetocaloric hybrid rocket engines, beamed pho


todecomposition and assymmetric gravitational waves. The last of these is often confused with the Power3 technology, according to Preston. <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><B>The scientific community has also mistaken Power3 for ion wind propulsion, although Transdimensional says ion wind contributes less than 2 p


ercent of the system's total motive force. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"></B><BR>
<BR>
Power3 has its limitations. Current power supplies have been located only on the ground, though Transdimensional says putting them onboard the objects that are being propelled should not be difficult. Since the system is electric in nature, current batter


y storage limits could also be a problem, though the company claims little power is required. And the design of the objects that have been successfully lifted so far is too basic for commercial purposes.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
Best Regards<BR>
Jean-Louis Naudin<BR>
Email: <A HREF="mailto:jnaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A><BR>
Main Web site : <A HREF="http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/</A><BR>
Alternate site : <A HREF="http://jnaudin.free.fr/">http://jnaudin.free.fr/ </A></P></P></FONT></HTML>

--part1_171.2539e43.28fa07ed_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 14:17:26 2001
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	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32651;
	Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:14:48 -0700
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
Message-ID: <6d.1bcb6d33.28fa08fb aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:15:39 EDT
Subject: [Info] Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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FYI see at :

<A HREF="http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html">http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html</A>

<<Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology

Transdimensional Technologies LLC (<A HREF="http://www.tdimension.com/">http://www.tdimension.com</A>) of Huntsville 
is developing a new, propellantless propulsion system. Called Power3 
(pronounced "power cubed"), the system uses an asymmetric capacitor to charge 
ion particles around an object. Electron movement between these particles 
generates force, moving the object in the direction desired. The system, 
tested before the public for the first time on June 20, 2001, has been the 
pet project of Transdimensional's founder, Jeffery Cameron, for most of his 
professional career.    

The Power3 technology was first tested using a small rotor in a vacuum at the 
National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Marshall Space Flight Center 
in Huntsville (<A HREF="http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/">http://www.msfc.nasa.gov</A>). NASA officials also attended the 
June 20 demonstration, which involved a larger, triangular lifter made almost 
entirely of pipe. Transdimensional has collaborated with NASA on other 
projects. "Obviously, we'd like to see even more NASA involvement in our 
work," says marketing director Wade Preston, one of Transdimensional's five 
employees. This is not the first propulsion technology Cameron has developed. 
Transdimensional's president and chief scientist also has patents pending on 
systems involving magnetocaloric hybrid rocket engines, beamed 
photodecomposition and assymmetric gravitational waves. The last of these is 
often confused with the Power3 technology, according to Preston. 

The scientific community has also mistaken Power3 for ion wind propulsion, 
although Transdimensional says ion wind contributes less than 2 percent of 
the system's total motive force. 

Power3 has its limitations. Current power supplies have been located only on 
the ground, though Transdimensional says putting them onboard the objects 
that are being propelled should not be difficult. Since the system is 
electric in nature, current battery storage limits could also be a problem, 
though the company claims little power is required. And the design of the 
objects that have been successfully lifted so far is too basic for commercial 
purposes.    

>>

Best Regards
Jean-Louis Naudin
Email: <A HREF="mailto:jnaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A>
Main Web site : <A HREF="http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/</A>
Alternate site : <A HREF="http://jnaudin.free.fr/">http://jnaudin.free.fr/ </A>

--part1_6d.1bcb6d33.28fa08fb_boundary
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<BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1">FYI see at :<BR>
<BR>
<A HREF="http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html">http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html</A><BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><B>Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="S


ANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><BR>
<P ALIGN=CENTER><BR>
<P ALIGN=LEFT></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Verdana" LANG="1"></B>Transdimensional Technologies LLC (<A HREF="http://www.tdimension.com/">http://www.tdimension.com</A>) of Huntsville is dev


eloping a new, propellantless propulsion system. Called Power3 (pronounced "power cubed"), the system uses an asymmetric capacitor to charge ion particles around an object. Electron movement between these particles generates force, moving the object in th


e direction desired. The system, tested before the public for the first time on June 20, 2001, has been the pet project of Transdimensional's founder, Jeffery Cameron, for most of his professional career.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" st


yle="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Verdana" LANG="1"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><B>The Power3 technology was first tested using a small rotor in a vacuum at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Marshall Space


 Flight Center in Huntsville</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"></B> (<A HREF="http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/">http://www.msfc.nasa.gov</A>). NASA officials also attended the June 20 d


emonstration, which involved a larger, triangular lifter made almost entirely of pipe. Transdimensional has collaborated with NASA on other projects. "Obviously, we'd like to see even more NASA involvement in our work," says marketing director Wade Presto


n, one of Transdimensional's five employees. This is not the first propulsion technology Cameron has developed. Transdimensional's president and chief scientist also has patents pending on systems involving magnetocaloric hybrid rocket engines, beamed pho


todecomposition and assymmetric gravitational waves. The last of these is often confused with the Power3 technology, according to Preston. <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><B>The scientific community has also mistaken Power3 for ion wind propulsion, although Transdimensional says ion wind contributes less than 2 p


ercent of the system's total motive force. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"></B><BR>
<BR>
Power3 has its limitations. Current power supplies have been located only on the ground, though Transdimensional says putting them onboard the objects that are being propelled should not be difficult. Since the system is electric in nature, current batter


y storage limits could also be a problem, though the company claims little power is required. And the design of the objects that have been successfully lifted so far is too basic for commercial purposes.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
Best Regards<BR>
Jean-Louis Naudin<BR>
Email: <A HREF="mailto:jnaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A><BR>
Main Web site : <A HREF="http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/</A><BR>
Alternate site : <A HREF="http://jnaudin.free.fr/">http://jnaudin.free.fr/ </A></P></P></FONT></HTML>

--part1_6d.1bcb6d33.28fa08fb_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 14:18:00 2001
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
Message-ID: <49.1250c314.28fa097d aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:17:49 EDT
Subject: [Info] Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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FYI see at :

<A HREF="http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html">http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html</A>

<<Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology

Transdimensional Technologies LLC (<A HREF="http://www.tdimension.com/">http://www.tdimension.com</A>) of Huntsville 
is developing a new, propellantless propulsion system. Called Power3 
(pronounced "power cubed"), the system uses an asymmetric capacitor to charge 
ion particles around an object. Electron movement between these particles 
generates force, moving the object in the direction desired. The system, 
tested before the public for the first time on June 20, 2001, has been the 
pet project of Transdimensional's founder, Jeffery Cameron, for most of his 
professional career.    

The Power3 technology was first tested using a small rotor in a vacuum at the 
National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Marshall Space Flight Center 
in Huntsville (<A HREF="http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/">http://www.msfc.nasa.gov</A>). NASA officials also attended the 
June 20 demonstration, which involved a larger, triangular lifter made almost 
entirely of pipe. Transdimensional has collaborated with NASA on other 
projects. "Obviously, we'd like to see even more NASA involvement in our 
work," says marketing director Wade Preston, one of Transdimensional's five 
employees. This is not the first propulsion technology Cameron has developed. 
Transdimensional's president and chief scientist also has patents pending on 
systems involving magnetocaloric hybrid rocket engines, beamed 
photodecomposition and assymmetric gravitational waves. The last of these is 
often confused with the Power3 technology, according to Preston. 

The scientific community has also mistaken Power3 for ion wind propulsion, 
although Transdimensional says ion wind contributes less than 2 percent of 
the system's total motive force. 

Power3 has its limitations. Current power supplies have been located only on 
the ground, though Transdimensional says putting them onboard the objects 
that are being propelled should not be difficult. Since the system is 
electric in nature, current battery storage limits could also be a problem, 
though the company claims little power is required. And the design of the 
objects that have been successfully lifted so far is too basic for commercial 
purposes.    

>>

Best Regards
Jean-Louis Naudin
Email: <A HREF="mailto:jnaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A>
Main Web site : <A HREF="http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/</A>
Alternate site : <A HREF="http://jnaudin.free.fr/">http://jnaudin.free.fr/ </A>

--part1_49.1250c314.28fa097d_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1">FYI see at :<BR>
<BR>
<A HREF="http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html">http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html</A><BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><B>Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="S


ANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><BR>
<P ALIGN=CENTER><BR>
<P ALIGN=LEFT></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Verdana" LANG="1"></B>Transdimensional Technologies LLC (<A HREF="http://www.tdimension.com/">http://www.tdimension.com</A>) of Huntsville is dev


eloping a new, propellantless propulsion system. Called Power3 (pronounced "power cubed"), the system uses an asymmetric capacitor to charge ion particles around an object. Electron movement between these particles generates force, moving the object in th


e direction desired. The system, tested before the public for the first time on June 20, 2001, has been the pet project of Transdimensional's founder, Jeffery Cameron, for most of his professional career.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" st


yle="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Verdana" LANG="1"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><B>The Power3 technology was first tested using a small rotor in a vacuum at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Marshall Space


 Flight Center in Huntsville</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"></B> (<A HREF="http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/">http://www.msfc.nasa.gov</A>). NASA officials also attended the June 20 d


emonstration, which involved a larger, triangular lifter made almost entirely of pipe. Transdimensional has collaborated with NASA on other projects. "Obviously, we'd like to see even more NASA involvement in our work," says marketing director Wade Presto


n, one of Transdimensional's five employees. This is not the first propulsion technology Cameron has developed. Transdimensional's president and chief scientist also has patents pending on systems involving magnetocaloric hybrid rocket engines, beamed pho


todecomposition and assymmetric gravitational waves. The last of these is often confused with the Power3 technology, according to Preston. <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><B>The scientific community has also mistaken Power3 for ion wind propulsion, although Transdimensional says ion wind contributes less than 2 p


ercent of the system's total motive force. </FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"></B><BR>
<BR>
Power3 has its limitations. Current power supplies have been located only on the ground, though Transdimensional says putting them onboard the objects that are being propelled should not be difficult. Since the system is electric in nature, current batter


y storage limits could also be a problem, though the company claims little power is required. And the design of the objects that have been successfully lifted so far is too basic for commercial purposes.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
Best Regards<BR>
Jean-Louis Naudin<BR>
Email: <A HREF="mailto:jnaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A><BR>
Main Web site : <A HREF="http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/</A><BR>
Alternate site : <A HREF="http://jnaudin.free.fr/">http://jnaudin.free.fr/ </A></P></P></FONT></HTML>

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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
Message-ID: <139.2fed6f9.28fa0bab aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:27:07 EDT
Subject: (INFO) Two dimensional, assymmetrical capacitor modules under high potential
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FYI : See :
<A HREF="http://technology.nasa.gov/scripts/nls_ax.dll/twDispTechItem(15;MFS-31419-1;20165454;1)">
http://technology.nasa.gov/scripts/nls_ax.dll/twDispTechItem(15;MFS-31419-1;201

65454;1)</A>

<< TWO DIMENSIONAL, ASSYMMETRICAL CAPACITOR MODULES UNDER HIGH POTENTIAL FOR 
GENERATING THRUST >>

Technology Profile
Case Number: MFS-31419-1 NASA Center: MSFC (Marshall Space Flight Center)   
>>

Best Regards
Jean-Louis Naudin
Email: <A HREF="mailto:jnaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A>
Main Web site : <A HREF="http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/</A>
Alternate site : <A HREF="http://jnaudin.free.fr/">http://jnaudin.free.fr/

</A>
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<BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2><BR>
FYI : See :<BR>
<A HREF="http://technology.nasa.gov/scripts/nls_ax.dll/twDispTechItem(15;MFS-31419-1;20165454;1)">http://technology.nasa.gov/scripts/nls_ax.dll/twDispTechItem(15;MFS-31419-1;20165454;1)</A><BR>
<BR>
&lt;&lt; <B>TWO DIMENSIONAL, ASSYMMETRICAL CAPACITOR MODULES UNDER HIGH POTENTIAL FOR GENERATING THRUST &gt;&gt;</B><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=5 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="1"><B>Technology Profile<BR>
Case Number:</B> MFS-31419-1 <B>NASA Center:</B> MSFC (Marshall Space Flight Center)   <BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
<BR>
Best Regards<BR>
Jean-Louis Naudin<BR>
Email: <A HREF="mailto:jnaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A><BR>
Main Web site : <A HREF="http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/</A><BR>
Alternate site : <A HREF="http://jnaudin.free.fr/">http://jnaudin.free.fr/

</A></FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 14:30:52 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <3b.1babd685.28fa0c49 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:29:45 EDT
Subject: Could my device be stealing from the electric company? 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Could my device be stealing from the electric company?

Could the electric impulses of ~10 nanoseconds each be occurring so fast as 
to allow more current to flow past the power companies "old" metering 
equipment, thus allowing for consistent overunity measurements?

As I attempted to prove at my page, ceramic magnets display only a "Fraction" 
of the reactive force that NIB magnets are capable of. WOW, maybe that is why 
they don't like idea - THEY (THE ELECTRIC COMPANY) would be forced to replace 
"ALL" the current amp meters with new ones - however they would first be 
required to BUY a license from me in order to use this "new tech" in order to 
redesign the old equipment. I guess I don't need regular people to believe 
the TECH works - I just have to blackmail the Electric - Company into buying 
me out and suppressing it - because nobody else needs it. LOOK at all the 
Money I will save the ELECTRIC COMPANY.

SHOW of HANDS EVERYBODY - IS THAT A GREAT IDEA OR WHAT? Then I will no longer 
have to put up with everybody asking for details for FREE, nor will I be 
Angry because of all the time wasters, tire kickers or scientists that say it 
cant be possible - I think that its a GREAT IDEA.

For one last look - http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html

Best Regards,
Chris Arnold

Thank you for showing me such kindness and consideration for succeeding at my 
task - but now I am off to build a NEW Business Proposal ( and try to act 
professional) for people that will listen to reason......Bye ALL  (this is 
far better choice than Bankruptcy Mr. EB)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 14:41:41 2001
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: [Info] Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology 
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:44:02 -0400
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Gentlemen;

This is really starting to rub me the wrong way, intellectually.  =
Calling press conferences and getting publicity over a development that =
dozens of experimentalists have likely worked with and found to be due =
to electrohydro-dynamics and ion motion is out of bounds, in my book at =
least.  JLN did a great deed in openly duplicating Trans-dimensional's =
claim.  But dilligence has not been pursued.  There is no evidence that =
I can find that this is anything other a charged air jet effect.  This =
press release itself is pretty funky.  In the first paragraph, it is =
claimed that it is an ion effect.  Then in the third paragraph, =
Transdimensional is claiming that the ion force contribution is less =
than 2%.

Sorry gents, this one broke the camel's back.  I'm going off list for a =
while.

NR

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JNaudin509 aol.com=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com=20
  Cc: billb eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 5:09 PM
  Subject: [Info] Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology=20


  FYI see at :

  =
http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html=


  <<Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology




  Transdimensional Technologies LLC (http://www.tdimension.com) of =
Huntsville is developing a new, propellantless propulsion system. Called =
Power3 (pronounced "power cubed"), the system uses an asymmetric =
capacitor to charge ion particles around an object. Electron movement =
between these particles generates force, moving the object in the =
direction desired. The system, tested before the public for the first =
time on June 20, 2001, has been the pet project of Transdimensional's =
founder, Jeffery Cameron, for most of his professional career.   =20

  The Power3 technology was first tested using a small rotor in a vacuum =
at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Marshall Space =
Flight Center in Huntsville (http://www.msfc.nasa.gov). NASA officials =
also attended the June 20 demonstration, which involved a larger, =
triangular lifter made almost entirely of pipe. Transdimensional has =
collaborated with NASA on other projects. "Obviously, we'd like to see =
even more NASA involvement in our work," says marketing director Wade =
Preston, one of Transdimensional's five employees. This is not the first =
propulsion technology Cameron has developed. Transdimensional's =
president and chief scientist also has patents pending on systems =
involving magnetocaloric hybr! id rocket engines, beamed =
photodecomposition and assymmetric gravitational waves. The last of =
these is often confused with the Power3 technology, according to =
Preston.=20

  The scientific community has also mistaken Power3 for ion wind =
propulsion, although Transdimensional says ion wind contributes less =
than 2 percent of the system's total motive force.=20

  Power3 has its limitations. Current power supplies have been located =
only on the ground, though Transdimensional says putting them onboard =
the objects that are being propelled should not be difficult. Since the =
system is electric in nature, current battery storage limits could also =
be a problem, though the company claims little power is required. And =
the design of the objects that have been successfully lifted so far is =
too basic for commercial purposes.   =20

  >>

  Best Regards
  Jean-Louis Naudin
  Email: JNaudin509 aol.com
  Main Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/
  Alternate site : http://jnaudin.free.fr/=20



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gentlemen;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is really starting to rub me the =
wrong way,=20
intellectually.&nbsp; Calling press conferences and getting publicity =
over a=20
development that dozens of experimentalists have likely worked with and =
found to=20
be due to electrohydro-dynamics and ion motion is out of bounds, in my =
book at=20
least.&nbsp; JLN did a great deed in openly duplicating =
Trans-dimensional's=20
claim.&nbsp; But dilligence has not been pursued.&nbsp; There is no =
evidence=20
that I can find that this is anything other a charged air jet =
effect.&nbsp; This=20
press release itself is pretty funky.&nbsp; In the first paragraph, it =
is=20
claimed that it is an ion effect.&nbsp; Then in the third paragraph,=20
Transdimensional is claiming that the ion force contribution is less =
than=20
2%.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry gents, this one broke the camel's =
back.&nbsp;=20
I'm going off list for a while.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NR</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:JNaudin509 aol.com"=20
  title=3DJNaudin509 aol.com>JNaudin509@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com"=20
  title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com>vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:billb eskimo.com"=20
  title=3Dbillb eskimo.com>billb@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 13, =
2001 5:09=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Info] Huntsville firm =

  developing new propulsion technology </DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3DArial lang=3D1 size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">FYI see at =
:<BR><BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/dail=
y30.html">http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/da=
ily30.html</A><BR><BR>&lt;&lt;</FONT><FONT=20
  color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D1 size=3D3 =
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B>Huntsville firm developing new propulsion=20
  technology</FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D1 size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>
  <P align=3Dcenter><BR>
  <P align=3Dleft></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DVerdana lang=3D1 =
size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></B>Transdimensional=20
  Technologies LLC (<A=20
  href=3D"http://www.tdimension.com">http://www.tdimension.com</A>) of =
Huntsville=20
  is developing a new, propellantless propulsion system. Called Power3=20
  (pronounced "power cubed"), the system uses an asymmetric capacitor to =
charge=20
  ion particles around an object. Electron movement between these =
particles=20
  generates force, moving the object in the direction desired. The =
system,=20
  tested before the public for the first time on June 20, 2001, has been =
the pet=20
  project of Transdimensional's founder, Jeffery Cameron, for most of =
his=20
  professional career.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3DVerdana=20
  lang=3D1 size=3D3 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#ff0000 face=3DArial =
lang=3D1 size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B>The Power3 =
technology=20
  was first tested using a small rotor in a vacuum at the National =
Aeronautics=20
  and Space Administration's Marshall Space Flight Center in=20
  Huntsville</FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D1 size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></B> (<A=20
  href=3D"http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/">http://www.msfc.nasa.gov</A>). NASA =
officials=20
  also attended the June 20 demonstration, which involved a larger, =
triangular=20
  lifter made almost entirely of pipe. Transdimensional has collaborated =
with=20
  NASA on other projects. "Obviously, we'd like to see even more NASA=20
  involvement in our work," says marketing director Wade Preston, one of =

  Transdimensional's five employees. This is not the first propulsion =
technology=20
  Cameron has developed. Transdimensional's president and chief =
scientist also=20
  has patents pending on systems involving magnetocaloric hybr! id =
rocket=20
  engines, beamed photodecomposition and assymmetric gravitational =
waves. The=20
  last of these is often confused with the Power3 technology, according =
to=20
  Preston. <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#ff0000 face=3DArial lang=3D1 =
size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B>The =
scientific=20
  community has also mistaken Power3 for ion wind propulsion, although=20
  Transdimensional says ion wind contributes less than 2 percent of the =
system's=20
  total motive force. </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D1 =
size=3D2=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></B><BR><BR>Power3 has=20
  its limitations. Current power supplies have been located only on the =
ground,=20
  though Transdimensional says putting them onboard the objects that are =
being=20
  propelled should not be difficult. Since the system is electric in =
nature,=20
  current battery storage limits could also be a problem, though the =
company=20
  claims little power is required. And the design of the objects that =
have been=20
  successfully lifted so far is too basic for commercial=20
  purposes.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR><BR>&gt;&gt;<BR><BR>Best =
Regards<BR>Jean-Louis=20
  Naudin<BR>Email: <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:jnaudin509 aol.com">JNaudin509@aol.com</A><BR>Main Web =
site : <A=20
  href=3D"http://go.to/jlnlabs/">http://go.to/jlnlabs/</A><BR>Alternate =
site : <A=20
  href=3D"http://jnaudin.free.fr/">http://jnaudin.free.fr/ </A></P>
  <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 14:52:00 2001
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Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:58:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetogravity Generator Experiment
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	Now e are inventing NEW stuff .....

	now it is the Tesla  xxxxxxxxword salad field .....

	It is electrical noise.

	It will remain so until you do some shielding tests.


	It is EXCITING to add more cool sounding words....


On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Hi Hamdi.
> I twisted the "rubber" leads of the DVM together so that the overall length was ~ 1.3
> meters, still using the 1.0 megohm resistor clipped across the lead ends.
> 
> If you rub the leads with your fingertips, or allow the leads
> to rub over something, the meter reading goes up to a few millivolts on the 300
> millivolt scale.
> 
> Two "artifacts" are occurring here;
> 
> 1, A "triboelectric" or electrostatic rubbing effect.
> 
> 2, A capacitive-generator effect, where the work put into handling the leads causes an
> change in capacitance that
> feeds the energy change dW =  d(0.5CV^2) back into
> the meter as a voltage change.
> 
> OTOH, if you let the twisted pair leads  swing vertically like a pendulum, with the
> meter held high in the air with one hand, the reading varies between 0.1 to ~ 1.5
> millivolts, which is almost an order of magnitude greater than one would expect from a
> voltage, V = v*l*B caused by the ~2.6 meter total lead length moving through the ~
> 5.0E-5 Tesla Geomagnetic Field.
> 
> Regards,    Frederick
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 15:43:34 2001
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Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 01:42:20 +0300
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William Beaty wrote:

.
> However, if you want to exclude ion wind, you CANNOT just add a cardboard
> plate.  Ion wind will follow the lines of electrostatic field, and unlike
> regular wind, it can divert around an insulating obstacle.
> 

Yes, actually it not important ion reach cathode or not or their path to reach an cathode. Ions provide trust just while leaving anode, they are kicked by the anode downward there fore wire is pushed upward. For the ion wind provide trust it is important 


that ion emission should be asymmetric, mostly downward. 

cardboard does not distort the electrical field between anode and cathode, only a small effect causing ion concentration above the cardboard increase, therefore an positive charge area.

> Try using incense to make a smoke cloud above and below the suspended
> device when it is inactive, then turn it on.  If it's ion wind, the
> downdraft will be very obvious.
> 
> Or try painting the single wire with several layers of high-voltage paint
> (corona dope).   This should stop any ion flow but without distorting the
> shape of the e-fields.


An important point here, the asymmetric ion emission or ion wind would be needed to primary effect (causing the real trust) to occurs. So any method preventing the asymmetric ion emission stooping also the trust would NOT BE THE PROOF that the ion wind is


 cause of the trust.


> 
> Or simply enclose the device within a thin plastic bag in order to
> eliminate any air-jets which might be producing a reaction force.

Yes, this is would be a logical test.

> 
> On the other hand, to optimize the ion wind you should use VERY thin wire
> in order to promote corona at lower voltage (less watts), and also fold
> over the edges of the aluminum foil in order to eliminate the
> opposite-polarity ion wind which comes from the sharp edge of the wide
> electrode.  Also put corona dope on any sharp points on the foil corners.
> 

Good idea. 

> Since one form of "ion wind fan" is made from a thin wire and a wide
> metal plate, I'd say that the levitator is probably run by air thrust.
> 
.


It would be worth to test these conditions:

1) HV voltages are floating respect to earth ground.
2) Anode is grounded.
3) Cathode is grounded.

These may affect bagged test.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 20:25:32 2001
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        "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Hi.

Thanks for some feedback. I've changed the text color to light
gray which shows up well even with a low contrast monitor.

If you found this to be a problem, go back now, it's done.

Also, page 3 is mostly pics. Wait a bit for it to download
before giving up (smile).

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 13 23:49:53 2001
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Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:49:35 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sat, 13 Oct 2001 07:46:08 -0700:

>From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>
>This is the first time I have seen this theory and reference, and it is
>pretty amazing if true. This isotope does NOT show up in any of the tables
>that I have (a dozen or so, but the AMU update wasn't submitted till 1995).

I had never seen it before either, and quite frankly I suspect that it
is a typo.

>If it were true, and the isotope was both natural and unstable, then there
>should be a large radiation signature coming from the ocean - as for
>instance. If the half life were less or near the 12 years of 3H, then
>hundreds of decays per cubic mile of seawater should be taking place, and at
>about 3 MeV per decay, it would be damn hard to hide.

See below.

>
>The only other possibilities is that the 4H isotope is completely STABLE as
>is claimed for the meta-state, 

Note that the energy of the meta state that is given is less than 1 keV,
which would indeed indicate a very long half-life (at least for gamma
decay). I suspect that if this isotope is for real, then it must indeed
exist in the meta state.

>or that it is somehow totally absent from
>seawater, but in the first case, it should have been picked up in mass spec
>work 50 years ago (unless it was mistaken for normall He, but this is
>unlikely because the mass difference, while slight is still well within the
>range of what should have been noticed particularly at specialized
>facilities like heavy water suppliers.

It may also have been mistaken for a D2 molecule.
(Or conversely, whoever reported the stable form of H4 (4H if you
prefer) may actually have been looking at D2 molecules, or a molecular
ion perhaps, which would also explain the spin, or even a dideuterino
molecular ion (which could well have lost the energy difference during
shrinkage)? :).

>
>The only option that makes sense is that it is so difficult to form in
>nature that it seldom occurs naturally (even from cosmic ray bombardment)
>and also that it is so unstable that it must be manufactured in situ, as in
>the case where it is to be useful for excess energy production, i.e. CF.
>This presents interesting possibilities.

How do you propose that it might be manufactured in situ?

>
>> According to http://atom.kaeri.re.kr/cgi-bin/nuclide?nuc=H-4 there is a
>> meta state of H4 that is stable (spin 1/2 +), and the spin 2- state
>> comprises 0.000137% of normal Hydrogen.
>
>> If so, then in a cathode preloaded with D, the following reaction should
>> be possible:
>
>> H4 + D -> He4 + 2 n + 20.5 MeV
>
>For the sake of clarity, what you have listed above as "H4" should probably
>be shown as 4H, so as not to confuse it with some kind of molecular state,
>but even so, you probably don't really need any fusion reaction at all (for
>OU) - as the decay alone is very energetic.

Granted, but only if it isn't stable, but in that case, it has probably
already decayed, and you haven't got it ;).
IOW what I presented above implied a reaction between the stable form
(if it really exists) and a deuteron.

>
>If you can catalytically make the 4H isotope (in an appropriate matrix like
>Pd) for less (of an energy expenditure) then the decay energy, 

Doesn't this imply a free lunch? And where would the neutrons come from?

>then you
>don't need any fusion to explain the excess heat in the ~99 % of all CF
>experiments that have shown excess heat without fusion ash (the original P&F
>work).
>
>Very interesting but still less compelling then the argument for hydrinos -
>if only because we still do NOT see that 3 MeV signature, which would be
>impossible to hide if it were there.
>
>Jones
Actually, I wouldn't expect to see the 3 MeV signature, because I think
the unstable forms (which decay through neutron emission) have an
immeasurably short half life, which implies that they decay as soon as
they are formed.
As to hydrinos, I suspect that they may be involved anyway, in bringing
about the fusion reactions I suggested.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 14 09:59:41 2001
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>OTOH, if you let the twisted pair leads  swing vertically like a pendulum, 
>with the
>meter held high in the air with one hand, the reading varies between 0.1 
>to ~ 1.5
>millivolts, which is almost an order of magnitude greater than one would 
>expect from a
>voltage, V = v*l*B caused by the ~2.6 meter total lead length moving 
>through the ~
>5.0E-5 Tesla Geomagnetic Field.

Did you shield it? If so, how? This experiment does not prove anything 
except possible interference and interaction with background fields and 
electrical noise unless it is shielded stringently. If you are going to 
keep calling it "magnetogravity" then the first step is to shield it. Why 
do you not want to do this?

--Kyle


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 14 10:22:04 2001
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cc: JNaudin509 aol.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Naudin's Transdimensional Lifter
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On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, William Beaty wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Colin Quinney wrote:
> >   From: JNaudin509 aol.com 
> >   Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:26 PM
> >   Subject: [UPDATE] Astonishing !!! The Transdimensional's Lifter replicated successfully..
> > 
> >   Dear All,
> >   Very astonishing !!! I have replicated the Transdimensional's Lifter1
> > and Lifter2 successfully... WOOWW...
> 
> Very cool device!   But what about the "plastic bag" test to eliminate any
> air thrust?
 
All that would be necessary would be to put a thin sheet of plastic rap in
a plane between the wires and the Aluminum plate, and extending out a
short distance. If there was a ion wind, then it would strike the plastic
and provide almost as much downward force as there is upward force on the
wire.
 
>       http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter1.htm
>       http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter2.htm
>       http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifter3.htm
>       http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftbld.htm
> 
>       http://www.entrenet.com/~stevend/lifter/lifter.htm
> 
> Idea: try using the very thin tungsten wire from an old photocopier.  That
> might give the same lift at lower voltage (less watts.)
> 
> However, if you want to exclude ion wind, you CANNOT just add a cardboard
> plate.  Ion wind will follow the lines of electrostatic field, and unlike
> regular wind, it can divert around an insulating obstacle. 

Right, but I think for the wrong reasons. Naudin held the cardboard
between the wire and the Al plates. Ions striking the cardboard would
apply a force to the cardboard and to Naudin's hand, while the equal and
opposite force would remain upwards on the lifter. The fields lines would
not change a great deal due to the cardboard, and would go right through
it, so the ions would be driven into the cardboard, and not around it. 

> Try using incense to make a smoke cloud above and below the suspended
> device when it is inactive, then turn it on.  If it's ion wind, the
> downdraft will be very obvious. 

> Or try painting the single wire with several layers of high-voltage paint
> (corona dope).   This should stop any ion flow but without distorting the
> shape of the e-fields.
> 
> Or simply enclose the device within a thin plastic bag in order to
> eliminate any air-jets which might be producing a reaction force.
> 
> On the other hand, to optimize the ion wind you should use VERY thin wire
> in order to promote corona at lower voltage (less watts), and also fold
> over the edges of the aluminum foil in order to eliminate the
> opposite-polarity ion wind which comes from the sharp edge of the wide
> electrode.  Also put corona dope on any sharp points on the foil corners. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since one form of "ion wind fan" is made from a thin wire and a wide
> metal plate, I'd say that the levitator is probably run by air thrust.

I'm not convinced that it is, as there doesn't seem to be enough force due
to the accelerated ions to provide as much lift as he is getting, and it
bothers me a great deal that it has been claimed that the lifter works in
a vacumme. I wonder just how hard the vacumme is.

 
> To intentionally produce ion wind, ideally you need one sharp electrode
> and one non-sharp electrode.  If TWO sharp electrodes were used, then this
> would produce opposite flows of ions, which would greatly slow or even
> eliminate the overall "wind." 

Why? The problem I see from two sharp electrodes, if it is due to ion
wind, is that there is symmetry - the force imparted to the top wire by
ions moving downward would be equal and opposite to the downward force
imparted to the ions as they collide with the bottom wire.

I've convinced myself that like other ion engines, if this is an ion
effect, that the ions make a glancing collison to the Al plates and lose
very little of their downward momentum to the planes as the ions are made
neutral. 


> A one-dimensional ion wind generator takes
> the form of a needle which is aimed at a hollow metal tube.  A
> two-dimimensional version takes the form of a very thin wire held near the
> edge of a metal plate.  The thin wire is "sharp" because of the high
> curvature.  The edges of the metal plate should NOT be sharp (use a thick
> plate with rounded edges, or make a flat plate by flattening a thin-walled
> tube.)
> 
> 
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 14 10:29:03 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Info] Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology 
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On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Nick Reiter wrote:

> Gentlemen;
 
> This is really starting to rub me the wrong way, intellectually. 
> Calling press conferences and getting publicity over a development that
> dozens of experimentalists have likely worked with and found to be due
> to electrohydro-dynamics and ion motion is out of bounds, in my book at
> least.

Why? In my book, all that matters is experiment. What was "likely worked
with or existing theories (that are inconsistant with the experiment)
don't matter. It may have been looked at 100 times, but if someone
describes and experiment on the one hundred and first time that shows
something new, and can be and is replicated, then I tend to think it's
important. 

>  JLN did a great deed in openly duplicating Trans-dimensional's
> claim.  But dilligence has not been pursued.  There is no evidence that
> I can find that this is anything other a charged air jet effect. 

I don't KNOW if it is a charged jet effect. Maybe it is, and maybe it
isn't. Claims are made that it works in a vacumme. If so, then I want to
know how hard a vacumme. I don't see how this could be an effective ion
thruster, unless Naudin's measurments are hosed or I've made a mistake in
my math somewhere. 

> This
> press release itself is pretty funky.  In the first paragraph, it is
> claimed that it is an ion effect.  Then in the third paragraph,
> Transdimensional is claiming that the ion force contribution is less
> than 2%. 

Press releases are made by English majors. :-)


 
> Sorry gents, this one broke the camel's back.  I'm going off list for a while.
> 
> NR
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: JNaudin509 aol.com 
>   To: vortex-l eskimo.com 
>   Cc: billb eskimo.com 
>   Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 5:09 PM
>   Subject: [Info] Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology 
> 
> 
>   FYI see at :
> 
>   http://birmingham.bcentral.com/birmingham/stories/2001/07/16/daily30.html
> 
>   <<Huntsville firm developing new propulsion technology
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Transdimensional Technologies LLC (http://www.tdimension.com) of Huntsville is developing a new, propellantless propulsion system. Called Power3 (pronounced "power cubed"), the system uses an asymmetric capacitor to charge ion particles around an obje


ct. Electron movement between these particles generates force, moving the object in the direction desired. The system, tested before the public for the first time on June 20, 2001, has been the pet project of Transdimensional's founder, Jeffery Cameron, f


or most of his professional career.    
> 
>   The Power3 technology was first tested using a small rotor in a vacuum at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville (http://www.msfc.nasa.gov). NASA officials also attended the June 20 demonstration


, which involved a larger, triangular lifter made almost entirely of pipe. Transdimensional has collaborated with NASA on other projects. "Obviously, we'd like to see even more NASA involvement in our work," says marketing director Wade Preston, one of Tr


ansdimensional's five employees. This is not the first propulsion technology Cameron has developed. Transdimensional's president and chief scientist also has patents pending on systems involving magnetocaloric hybr! id rocket engines, beamed photodecompos


ition and assymmetric gravitational waves. The last of these is often confused with the Power3 technology, according to Preston. 
> 
>   The scientific community has also mistaken Power3 for ion wind propulsion, although Transdimensional says ion wind contributes less than 2 percent of the system's total motive force. 
> 
>   Power3 has its limitations. Current power supplies have been located only on the ground, though Transdimensional says putting them onboard the objects that are being propelled should not be difficult. Since the system is electric in nature, current ba


ttery storage limits could also be a problem, though the company claims little power is required. And the design of the objects that have been successfully lifted so far is too basic for commercial purposes.    
> 
>   >>
> 
>   Best Regards
>   Jean-Louis Naudin
>   Email: JNaudin509 aol.com
>   Main Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/
>   Alternate site : http://jnaudin.free.fr/ 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 14 12:34:15 2001
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On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, Stephen Lajoie wrote:

> > plate.  Ion wind will follow the lines of electrostatic field, and unlike
> > regular wind, it can divert around an insulating obstacle. 
> 
> Right, but I think for the wrong reasons. Naudin held the cardboard
> between the wire and the Al plates. Ions striking the cardboard would
> apply a force to the cardboard and to Naudin's hand, while the equal and
> opposite force would remain upwards on the lifter.

It's not that simple.  A small quantity of ions would attach to the
cardboard and give it a strong alike charge.  The e-field would be totally
altered.  I don't know if this would make the cardboard act as MORE of a
barrier, or if it would act as frictionless virtual streamlining which
aids the charged air to flow AROUND the cardboard, as if it was not there. 
My intuition says the latter. 


> The fields lines would
> not change a great deal due to the cardboard, and would go right through
> it, so the ions would be driven into the cardboard, and not around it. 

In a textbook idealization this may be true.  In the real world the ions
are attracted to both conductive and insulating objects because of
induction, and the objects aquire a charge.


> > Since one form of "ion wind fan" is made from a thin wire and a wide
> > metal plate, I'd say that the levitator is probably run by air thrust.
> 
> I'm not convinced that it is, as there doesn't seem to be enough force due
> to the accelerated ions to provide as much lift as he is getting,

Ions don't accelerate individually.  Instead the air behaves like a
charged fluid.  Ions couple to the surrounding air because of collisions
and then they drag the air along with them.  This is a common scale-effect
in hydrodynamics.  It's why smoke particles don't settle as fast as sand
grains.  If you tried to push some charged smoke particles along, the air
and the smoke would move together as a unit.

So, *HOW FAST* an air jet is needed to lift the lifter3?  If lifter3
doesn't make a wind at the calculated velocity, then we'll know that
something weird is going on. 

Let's assume that the intake is from all directions (so it contribues zero
momentum) and the jet is a parallel laminar flow with the same size as the
device.  In that case, in order to lift the 16gm mass (.16 Nt weight) of
the device, the velocity of the jet would only have to be: 

    f = thrust Nt
    d = air density 1.2Kg/M^3
    a = area of jet, .3*sqrt(3)*.3/2 = .078 M^2

    engine thrust = vel^2 * area of jet * exhaust density

    or:

    vel = sqrt(f/a/d)
    = sqrt (.16 / .078 / 1.2)  
    = 1.3 M/sec

(don't trust the above!  Double check this yourself.)

The air flow should be about 4ft per second or 3 miles per hour.  If some
air also flows outside the borders of the device, then the "virtual area"
would be larger and the air flow even slower.  Move your hand at 4ft/sec
and feel the wind.  It's a very light breeze.  Then stick your hand under
lifter3 and see if a similar wind is blowing.  Or do the same with a
candle or a smouldering cigar.  In addition, we'd expect to see a long
laminar *jet* of air extending far below the device, but no jet above it. 

If lifter3 can fly WITHOUT producing a long column-shaped downdraft moving
at a few feet per second, that's something very interesting.  But if such
a downdraft is found, other argumetns are moot: it mostly flies like an
electrostatic helicopter. 



> and it
> bothers me a great deal that it has been claimed that the lifter works in
> a vacumme. I wonder just how hard the vacumme is.


No air jets.  But if the electric current doesn't go to zero in the hard
vacuum, it means that charged particles are still being launched, and we'd
expect to see a small reaction force. 



> I've convinced myself that like other ion engines, if this is an ion
> effect, that the ions make a glancing collison to the Al plates and lose
> very little of their downward momentum to the planes as the ions are made
> neutral. 

But ions will only behave that way in near-vacuum conditions where the
mean free path is very long.  At 1ATM, the air is like peanut butter at
the scale of a single ion, and if that ion is forced to move, it drags a
relatively vast volume of air along with it. 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 14 18:22:35 2001
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Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:21:58 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: wind from lifter3 should be 4 mph
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BILL WROTE:

> The air flow should be about 4ft per second or 3 miles per hour.
> If some air also flows outside the borders of the device, then
> the "virtual area" would be larger and the air flow even slower.

Here's where intriguing efficiency lurks, if you can keep structure 
weight down. To get a certain amount of thrust, you can move a small 
reaction mass fast, or a large reaction mass slow. The power required 
to do that is smaller with the larger mass. For instance, ignoring 
control, airfoil drag, and structural requirements for the moment, a 
'helicopter' with a huge rotor disk area would require little power 
to hover - you could keep a craft of thousands of pounds aloft by 
pedal power if a (nearly dragless!) rotor was big enough. The point 
being, the thrust area of an electrostatic lifter might be made quite 
large in the form of a semi-rigid inflated structure, etc. The 
drag/control problems with the constant area thrust of ions (or 
Biefeld-Brown or whatever it is) are reduced for a large structure. 
An experimental man-carrying craft in the ultralight category might 
be achievable using the technique. I figure you'd need to achieve at 
least 5 ounces thrust per square foot before the thruster area gets 
too ridiculous.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 14 20:48:15 2001
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Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 22:42:20 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
Subject: Transdimensional "lifter"
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Hi all,

I went to the sites and looked at this stuff. This is nothing new, its been 
around since invented by Thomas Townsend Brown. He patented it and called 
it the "electrokinetic apparatus" and said it works via a force on a 
surrounding fluid dielectric, be it air, liquid or such. Including rarified 
air, if I remember correctly. These people, as far as I can see, haven't 
got anything new, Brown made this work, and it should be to his credit. All 
these guys look to have done is made it into a neat little triangle. 
Jean-Louis Naudin has done more work on Brown's electrokinetic effects than 
these people seem to have, and yet they are claiming that it is theirs and 
no one else can use it for profit or otherwise without their permission. 
I'm sorry, but this site and these people seem decidedly unscientific about 
their presentation. It is improper to not credit the true inventor when 
replicating prior art, and from the web page and what I have heard aside 
from that, this is all they have done: replicate prior art.

--Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 14 21:24:37 2001
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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011014223757.02b49eb0 pop.infi-net.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Transdimensional "lifter"
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:21:44 -0400
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Even their copyright is phoney. If you read the small print, it says it's
effective in the year 20,001, not 2001.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 11:42 PM
Subject: Transdimensional "lifter"


> Hi all,
>
> I went to the sites and looked at this stuff. This is nothing new, its
been
> around since invented by Thomas Townsend Brown. He patented it and called
> it the "electrokinetic apparatus" and said it works via a force on a
> surrounding fluid dielectric, be it air, liquid or such. Including
rarified
> air, if I remember correctly. These people, as far as I can see, haven't
> got anything new, Brown made this work, and it should be to his credit.
All
> these guys look to have done is made it into a neat little triangle.
> Jean-Louis Naudin has done more work on Brown's electrokinetic effects
than
> these people seem to have, and yet they are claiming that it is theirs and
> no one else can use it for profit or otherwise without their permission.
> I'm sorry, but this site and these people seem decidedly unscientific
about
> their presentation. It is improper to not credit the true inventor when
> replicating prior art, and from the web page and what I have heard aside
> from that, this is all they have done: replicate prior art.
>
> --Kyle R. Mcallister
>


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 14 21:46:45 2001
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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
To: <greenglow yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <jlnlabs@yahoogroups.com>,
        <cay electricspacecraft.com>, "George Hathaway" <ghathaway@ieee.org>,
        "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
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Subject: Re: [antigrav] Fwd: Ross on the "Biefield-Brown" effect
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:41:47 -0400
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The high voltage "ion wind" generators using asymmetric electrodes are more
complicated than appear at first glance. From similar patents I've been
reading, it appears there's an ion wind effect, a corona, a *polarization*
of neutral air molecules, collision of air ions with neutral air molecules
with some subsequent additional ionization, and also possibly a Bifield
Brown Effect (where it was claimed that the thrust resulting from asymmetric
electrodes of high tension continued even under a high vacuum).
Unfortunately, I don't have a handy reference to exactly HOW high a vacuum
Brown utilized, and IMO, that's an important piece of missing information.

Several Patentees mentioned that the efficiency of these devices was very
low, somewhere in the vicinity of 2 percent. This was surmised to be due to
the fact that the ionizing wire
was ionizing the gaseous medium mainly through collisions, and consequently
creating free radicals, nitrogen oxides and ozone etc. Most of the energy
loss though, was considered to be due to a general heating of the
atmosphere.

For purposes of reduction of free radicals, and significantly improved
performance, (several orders of magnitude improvement) there was only one
patent which shone, and that was the Quasi-Corona Okress patent US3464207 of
1969. I noted that Okress claimed some preliminary testing.

http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=US3464207&CY=ep&LG=en&DB=EPD

In atmosphere, Okress suggested 1 or 2 nanosecond HV pulses onto the
asymmetric electrodes, and with even shorter
rise-times. It was claimed that more than 300KV / cm. could be achieved
without sparking or air breakdown by utilizing this nanosecond pulse
technique. Some ions were given off yes, but "streamers", corona, and hard
ionization of the air with all their consequent nitrogen oxides and ozone
creation was *claimed* to be significantly reduced by utilizing this
technique. And these higher voltages were necessary simply because the
thrust is calculated to go up as the square of the voltage. A pulse
repetition rate of 10 KHz I believe was chosen to allow fresh air to enter
between the asymmetric electrodes prior to each subsequent nanosecond pulse.

I calculated (roughly) from Okress' figures with his patented grid assembly,
a thrust of 60 lbs per sq. ft.


The Bifield-Brown Effect:
If you wish to investigate the possible thrusting properties of *only* the
asymmetric electric field, a suitable dielectric medium must be chosen which
excludes all gases and ions etc, and hopefully confines somewhat the
electric field. A pure vacuum is best for testing these kinds of (ZPE)
experiments, but for propulsion purposes,  perhaps a solid high-strength
dielectric might work the best.

To sum up, a more powerful electric field can be developed from extremely
high voltage short duration pulses, and this can be repetitively applied
utilizing asymmetric electrodes of the appropriate shape through a suitable
dielectric. The natural impedance of this asymmetric *capacitor* should be
calculated for nanosecond pulses, and the repetition rate will most likely
be determined by the heating rate of the dielectric selected.

I believe the following might be significant: that Bahnson and Brown
observed an anomalous momentary thrust in several of their experiments. This
was observed simultaneously with (or just prior to) a breakdown spark. (fast
rise-time + high V = jerk) Robert Stirniman has alluded to the importance of
this term. Jerk is rate of change of acceleration.

George Hathaway performed an experiment at the Townsend Brown Seminar in
Philadelphia in 1995 using a high voltage Marxbank pulse generator, where he
looked for the reported anomalous Townsend Brown thrusting effect during a
powerful spark discharge; however, I cannot recall if he was utilizing
asymmetric electrodes. Regardless, anomalous thrust was not detected.

Best Regards
Colin Quinney


----- Original Message -----
From: "KKLINGON" <kklingon cwc.net>
To: <greenglow yahoogroups.com>; "antigrav" <greenglow@egroups.com>
Cc: "G. G. Ford" <swimp home.com>; <c.h.thompson@pgen.net>; "Vesselin
Petkov" <vpetkov alcor.concordia.ca>; "Robert Neil Boyd" <rnboyd@mip.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [antigrav] Fwd: Ross on the "Biefield-Brown" effect


> Dear All,
> I seldom, in these times of darkness, post anything on this  group.
> I think though, I should comment on this. See below original message for
reply.
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: cyrano aqua.ocn.ne.jp
>   To: antigrav
>   Cc: G. G. Ford ; c.h.thompson pgen.net ; Dr Graham Ennis ; Vesselin
Petkov ; Robert Neil Boyd
>   Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 3:32 AM
>   Subject: [antigrav] Fwd: Ross on the "Biefield-Brown" effect
>
>
>   Ross on the "Biefield-Brown" effect:
>
>   >It is true that these things work in a "vacuum".  But, on earth, the
term
>   >"vacuum" simply means you have rarefied the air inside.  There is still
gas
>   >inside.
>   >> >
>   >> >This effect will work in a vacuum. That means it is not
>   >> >due to electron/ion acceleration. You really ought to
>   >> >get the facts on the Biefield-Brown effect before voicing
>   >> >your opinion. The Biefield-Brown effect is electrogravitic.
>   >> >
>   .com
>
>   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
greenglow-unsubscribe eGroups.com
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>   The whole point about the physics of a locus of intense electromagnetic
energy, (and I include thermal energy in this!) is the
discontinuities/anisotropies  in the  zero-point field that accompanies it.
The field  is the mechanism for this, both storing, supporting, and
expressing the  energy involved. Interestingly, this sets a minimum
wavelength for any radiation involved in any exchange of radiation, because
it has to be greater in wavelength than the fundemental zeropoint
frequency....... so all local anisotropic  energy  concentrations, great or
small, follow this rule.
>
>   Secondly, the  disturbance in the zeropoint field follows the general
physics of hydrodynamics, with  fluidic  properties.
>
>   This includes the concept of fluidic drag/displacement, changes in the
"Viscosity" of the  zeropoint field (not strictly true, but leave that for
now) and the accompanying  vortex attachment of sources of  energy
anisotropy to the general surrounding field.
>
>   This is what gives the  Bielfield-brown effect it's  possibility of
displacement of the energy source in a vacuum. (its pushing against the
field).
>
>   This effect is manifested by both intense magnetic,  electrical, and
radiative  phenomena.
>
>   Thrust can therefore be developed by  high electrostatic potential,
high intensity  magnetic fields, and  powerful radio-waves.
>
>   The geometry of the device is in each case however, different. it is
possible to combine several sorts of  energy  phenomena in one device.
>
>   The efficiency is very low,  with the materials and technologies at
present  understood.
>
>   However, thrusts of about 1000 Kg per Megawatt are achieveable, (very
difficalt electrical engineering problems!!!)
>
>   To power a spacecraft to Mars, in a powered hohnmann transfer orbit,
(using low power, 1000Kg thrust on a 100,000 KG vehicle, it would be
entirely  sufficient. Rapid transit times would ensue.
>
>   To achieve higher thrusts is possible, but requires materials and
techniques not yet  commonly understood or developed.
>
>   Graham



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 01:25:16 2001
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 04:26:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Update
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	Dear Vo,

	
	I have recently been taking some angry E mail for asking
questions.

	One of these mails brought some of my personal life into the
matter.


	So I will now give an update on this and my opinion on this.


	A)	I am still below the middle class income level, way way
below.  

	Opinion:	I do not think being poor is wrong or bad.


	B)	Quite some time in the past i asked the members of Vortex
for a handout, loan, design and-or scientific work, because things were
very very tight.
	Things are still tight.  I am not proud in this matter.

	
	Opinion:	I do not think asking for help is bad or wrong.
	Opinion:	I think pride can do a lot of damage.

	In General

	In general people are kind and caring and asking for help is a
	  natural part of life. 
	As an example:  If you fall and cut yourself badly and
	  think you will be better off with someone Helping you as opposed
	  to trying to bandage yourself one handed, it is OK to ask for
	  help.  Your friends and loved ones would probably say something
	  if you did Not Ask for help.  
	They might say:	"Hey!  you should have asked for help!"

	In the present times matters are skewed.  35 years ago or so, one
	 person from a couple could work a full time job and usually could
	 have the pleasure and joy of being able to provide for a partner,  
	 a family of children, one or two elderly or infirm or neeful.
	   In the last few years the same level of life was hit or miss if
	    Both partners worked.  Into the bargain some of the givens
	   such as quality and performance being rewarded and admired have
	  fallen by the wayside.   But not always.
	I will still hold doors, ask for help, admire good work, look for
	 the more complete answer, even if the answer somehow did not seem
	 so easy to come by or appear so exciting.
	The human condition is exiting.


	To recap:


	Still not well to do.
	Still not too proud to ask for help.
	Still look for the answer, expected or exciting, or not.
	Still look up to heroines and heros.
	Still sure the basic good in all of us the same amount of
	  God in Each Person.
	Still smile at the wonder.  And fish, cows, lightning bugs, corn
		soybeans, people, music, love, life, Art and water and 
		  all else, Cab Calloway.
	Thankful I am here to see it all.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 02:56:41 2001
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:40:51 +1300
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When do you think you might have the HV supply, nanoamp meter and low current ohm meter
ready?

Are you sure you can successfully make any one?

If you are I'm happy to send up to $250 of the money right now if you think it would help.

I'm willing to pay up to $500 for all three, or maybe almost that for the HV and either
meter, but not just any one.

I'm not rich, I live on only $85 US per week, which I manage to make about half of that
available for experimentation, So if it comes in under $500 for all three I'd appreciate
it.

If you can make that HV supply work I am sure you could sell them online.


John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Vo,
>
>
>         I have recently been taking some angry E mail for asking
> questions.
>
>         One of these mails brought some of my personal life into the
> matter.
>
>         So I will now give an update on this and my opinion on this.
>
>         A)      I am still below the middle class income level, way way
> below.
>
>         Opinion:        I do not think being poor is wrong or bad.
>
>         B)      Quite some time in the past i asked the members of Vortex
> for a handout, loan, design and-or scientific work, because things were
> very very tight.
>         Things are still tight.  I am not proud in this matter.
>
>
>         Opinion:        I do not think asking for help is bad or wrong.
>         Opinion:        I think pride can do a lot of damage.
>
>         In General
>
>         In general people are kind and caring and asking for help is a
>           natural part of life.
>         As an example:  If you fall and cut yourself badly and
>           think you will be better off with someone Helping you as opposed
>           to trying to bandage yourself one handed, it is OK to ask for
>           help.  Your friends and loved ones would probably say something
>           if you did Not Ask for help.
>         They might say: "Hey!  you should have asked for help!"
>
>         In the present times matters are skewed.  35 years ago or so, one
>          person from a couple could work a full time job and usually could
>          have the pleasure and joy of being able to provide for a partner,
>          a family of children, one or two elderly or infirm or neeful.
>            In the last few years the same level of life was hit or miss if
>             Both partners worked.  Into the bargain some of the givens
>            such as quality and performance being rewarded and admired have
>           fallen by the wayside.   But not always.
>         I will still hold doors, ask for help, admire good work, look for
>          the more complete answer, even if the answer somehow did not seem
>          so easy to come by or appear so exciting.
>         The human condition is exiting.
>
>         To recap:
>
>         Still not well to do.
>         Still not too proud to ask for help.
>         Still look for the answer, expected or exciting, or not.
>         Still look up to heroines and heros.
>         Still sure the basic good in all of us the same amount of
>           God in Each Person.
>         Still smile at the wonder.  And fish, cows, lightning bugs, corn
>                 soybeans, people, music, love, life, Art and water and
>                   all else, Cab Calloway.
>         Thankful I am here to see it all.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 03:24:33 2001
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I obviously didn't intend to send that to the list, Please ignore.

My email program has a habit of switching email addresses if you don't do things just right...



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 07:02:32 2001
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Brief article in Newsweek on cold fusion
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See:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/639202.asp

This is the usual nonsense. Disappointing but not surprising.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 09:53:16 2001
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Just to give you a little more background.  Mr. Beals called me
will I was out and left a message to call him back.  When I
called the given number it was always busy.  Apparently he did
talk to McKubre, but chose to ignore almost everything Mike told
him about success in cold fusion.  Clearly, this author either
was afraid to buck the system or his editor told him not to rock
the boat, especially when well known people in physics say that
the claims are nonsense.  Once again the myth about CANR
continues, once again the power of influential scientists is
made obvious, and once again objectivity in the scientific
profession is revealed as a myth.

Ed Storms

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> See:
>
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/639202.asp
>
> This is the usual nonsense. Disappointing but not surprising.
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 10:03:37 2001
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
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On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> See:
> 
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/639202.asp
> 
> This is the usual nonsense. Disappointing but not surprising.
> 
> - Jed

The Newsweek article was not even worth reading. It was a collection of
errors; it is a textbook example of what science is not. "Too good to be
true", "hard core true believers", "butt of jokes", "hope the
establishment is wrong", "so elegant and appealing that it is difficult to
resist", and "part company with main stream scientist". 

None of this, of course, has anything to do with science in the slightest
way. It is an exercise in seeing how many anti-science errors can be
crammed into one brief article. It is pathetic that this is what most
people think is "science". We have a collection of paragraphs where the
author of the article tries to determine scientific fact by noting who is
ridiculing whom, what the popular vote is among people who have never
studied it and thus cannot offer a scientific opinion, and the concept
that something good cannot be scientific fact. All arguments that have no
place in science. 

There was not one mention of fusion ash in the form of 4He, 3He and the
unmistakable tritium. No mention of commensurate heat. No mention of low
levels of neutrons and soft x-rays, or the transmutation of elements in
the catalysts. Absolutely no mention of the McKubre/George replication of
the Arata experiment where tritium was found in places that could only be
due to cold fusion. In short, every stupid argument that could be
conceived that was contrary to cold fusion was given, and absolutely no
mention of experimental facts and data was given to support cold fusion.
In the end, nature dictates the behavior of nature, not the ill-educated
who use ridicule, deliberate ignorance and appeals to authority. Ask the
experiment, not the authority. 






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 10:06:29 2001
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Subject: Re: Brief article in Newsweek on cold fusion
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What I find depressing about articles like this is that the reporters make 
no effort to include objective facts. Everything is opinion. There is never 
any mention of specific experiments. It is as if cold fusion was a 
theoretical debate, instead of experimentally based. The reporter could at 
least say: "cold fusion scientists claim they have observed massive amounts 
of tritium, and researchers at Mitsubishi say that every experiment they 
have conducted in the last six years has yielded positive results." The 
reported does not have to endorse these findings. No doubt a skeptic will 
say the results are all wrong. But the reporter might, at least, mention 
what is claimed.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 10:14:04 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Brief article in Newsweek on cold fusion
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:


>The Newsweek article was not even worth reading. It was a collection of 
>errors; it is a textbook example of what science is not. "Too good to be 
>true", "hard core true believers", "butt of jokes", "hope the
>establishment is wrong", "so elegant and appealing that it is difficult to
>resist", and "part company with main stream scientist".
>
>None of this, of course, has anything to do with science in the slightest 
>way. It is an exercise in seeing how many anti-science errors can be 
>crammed into one brief article. . . .

Well said.

You might consider repackaging these statements in a more polite, 
toned-down, but still insistent version and zapping a 3-paragraph note to 
the author and the editor. I would do it, but he has read my stuff and he 
probably considers me an "insider" -- meaning I have no credibility.

I would say send the message as is, but they will not read it.

Stress the final paragraph, no mention of helium or massive amounts of 
tritium, billions of times more than minimum level the instrument can detect.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 11:07:58 2001
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:07:21 -0400
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Subject: Fission plants seen vulnerable
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In the wake of the Sept. 11 attack, experts are reexamining the safety of 
most conventional energy generating schemes. The plan to move nuclear waste 
to Yucca Mountain has faced increased opposition, because people fear that 
material in transit will be particularly vulnerable to attack. Opponents 
call the Yucca transportation plans, "mobile Chernobyl."

Here are some of the more intelligent press quotes about nuclear plants and 
terrorism:

The Times

THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 27 2001 Western targets Nuclear reactors vulnerable to 
attack

BY MARK HENDERSON, SCIENCE CORRESPONDENT

The impact of a crash and high temperatures caused by burning aviation fuel 
could easily buckle the 4ft of concrete and steel cladding that protects 
reactor cores, David Kyd, the agency's chief spokesman, said.
Automatic shutdown systems, which flood the reactor with water coolant in 
an emergency, would normally prevent an explosion but there would be a 
serious risk of a leak spreading radioactivity over a radius of up to 22 
miles. The worst damage would occur within a six-mile radius but a full 
evacuation would be necessary over the wider affected area. Contamination 
over hundreds of miles, as occurred after the Chernobyl disaster, is 
unlikely with more modern fuel and control rods, but radioactive pollution 
could be expected to persist for 10 to 15 years.
In Britain direct hits on nearby plants could expose parts of several large 
towns and cities, such as Glasgow, Cardiff, Newcastle, Ipswich and Bristol, 
to contamination. . . .

"Reactors have the most robust engineering of any buildings in the civil 
sector -- only missile silos and nuclear bunkers are built to be tougher," 
Mr Kyd said. "They are designed to be earthquake-proof and our experiences 
in California and Japan have shown them to be so.

"They are also built to withstand impacts but not that of a wide-bodied 
passenger jet full of fuel. A deliberate hit of that sort is something that 
was never in any scenario at the design stage. These are vulnerable targets 
and the consequences of a direct hit could be catastrophic."


The Nation
Nuclear Safety
by MATT BIVENS

A terrorist strike at any such plant could not bring about a nuclear 
explosion--but there are a number of scenarios that would spread deadly 
radiation clouds across, in the NRC's famous phrase, an area the size of 
Pennsylvania. On top of the tens of thousands of eventual radiation-driven 
deaths, there is the mass panic such an attack might cause. And if we can 
clean up and rebuild after the World Trade Center bombing, a radiological 
attack would force us to write off huge swathes of land as national 
sacrifice areas. . . .

David Orrik, a former U.S. Navy Seal, until recently ran a program that 
tested the security at civilian nuclear plants by organizing mock attacks 
against them. His exercises don't sound terribly ambitious--they pit a 
small team, moving on foot, against a nuclear plant security force that 
would be warned six months in advance of the test. Even so, half of all 
plants tested failed--and in at least one case, Orrik's men were able to 
simulate enough sabotage to cause a core melt. . . .

The nuclear industry did not enjoy failing, and did not enjoy shelling out 
hundreds of thousands of dollars to prepare for Orrik's tests--or to 
install security upgrades as the penalty for not passing. So it began to 
lean on the NRC to gut the program. This fall, the NRC is doing just 
that--phasing out Orrik's program in favor of one in which nuclear power 
plants will carry out "self-assessments." . . .

[Before September 11] the Nuclear Enterprise Institute--the nuclear power 
industry's Washington-based trade group-- [argued] that nuclear power 
plants "are overly defended at a level that is not at all commensurate with 
the risk." On Friday, the NEI's offices were closed. . . .

The NEI statement on nuclear plant security states that the reinforced 
concrete containment buildings that surround U.S. reactors--they are there 
to prevent the spread of radiation in case of an accident--are "designed to 
withstand the impact of hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, and airborne objects 
up to a certain force." In reality, as even the NRC conceded on Friday, 
reactor containment buildings were not built with the idea of resisting an 
intentional assault by a modern-day jet--certainly not the monster 767s 
that crashed into the World Trade Center. The literature is actually 
strangely silent on this point--so much so that experts interviewed all 
named the same study, published in 1974 in Nuclear Safety, about 
probabilities of a plane accidentally hitting a nuclear reactor. That study 
concluded that some reactor containment structures had zero chance of 
sustaining a hit by a "large" plane, defined as more than 6.25 tons. The 
767s that hit the trade center weighed 150 tons, and were probably moving 
at top speed.

[That is incorrect. They were not moving at top speed. - JR]


In fact, the security vulnerabilities at nuclear plants are so ghastly that 
almost everyone contacted for this article balked at discussing them in any 
detail. Paul Gunter, an expert with the anti-nuclear power Nuclear 
Information and Resource Service (NIRS), recoiled when asked about one 
possible scenario. "Oh, I don't want to prescribe that. It's too terrifying 
to imagine." NRC spokesman Jasinski also refused to discuss that scenario. 
Bennett Ramberg, author of a 16-year-old book called "Nuclear Power Plants 
as Weapons for the Enemy: an Unrecognized Military Peril," turned away some 
questions, saying, "I feel a little discomfort talking about that now." . . .


We get 20 percent of our electricity from our fleet of enormously expensive 
and dangerous reactors. Regardless of what our vice president may think, 
through better energy efficiency and conservation alone we could reduce 
energy demand to the point of not needing any of those plants--of not even 
noticing that they had been shut down. The Rocky Mountain Institute, a 
prominent think-tank on energy matters, argues that "up to 75 percent of 
the electricity used in the United States today could be saved with energy 
efficiency measures that cost less than the electricity itself."

[I doubt that such large savings could be made so cheaply. - JR]

Given that our national will and purpose are now being mobilized, does 
anyone doubt that, properly channeled, we could succeed in this? Or that 
along the way we could also establish wind power, solar power and hydrogen 
fuel cells--and in so doing, completely wean ourselves from the oil of the 
Middle East? Surely this--and not open-ended war against every nation that 
has every stamped bin Laden's passport--is the path to real victory and 
national security. After all, as Lochbaum of the Union of Concerned 
Scientists noted, no one this week is calling his colleagues in the 
alternative energy sectors to ask about terrorist threats to windmills. . . .


- Jed

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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:29:35 -0400
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Subject: Re: Fission plants seen vulnerable - more Nation quotes
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(A few more quotes:)

This week's events have changed the national landscape for nuclear power. 
For starters, they make the industry's gushy talk about the next-generation 
Pebble Bed Reactor--the reactor so safe it won't even need a containment 
building--seem ghastly and ridiculous.

Terrorism also has implications for the Great Waste Debate. Our reactors 
have for fifty years been piling up vast quantities of highly radioactive 
spent nuclear fuel. The question of what to do with it all takes on a new 
urgency. Do we ship it all to a central site like the one proposed for 
Yucca Mountain--and create a spectacular series of terrorist targets for 
years, turning trains and trucks of waste into what critics deride as 
"Mobile Chernobyl"? Or do we keep waste in vast pools on site at reactor 
complexes--in buildings so frail that David Lochbaum, a nuclear engineer 
with the Union of Concerned Scientists, says they could be pierced "by a 
Cessna"--and also keep producing more such waste every day?

[I expect Lochbaum is exaggerating. I have seen what Cessna accidents do. 
We get one every year or so here at PDK airport -- three this year. I have 
seen photographs, one wreck in person, and a twin engine plane came down in 
nearby friend's driveway. The accidents are seldom serious, except to the 
pilot and passengers, of course. - JR]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 12:31:20 2001
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Subject: Re: Brief article in Newsweek on cold fusion
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Ed Storm's wrote:

>Just to give you a little more background.  Mr. Beals called me
>will I was out and left a message to call him back.  When I
>called the given number it was always busy.  Apparently he did
>talk to McKubre, but chose to ignore almost everything Mike told
>him about success in cold fusion.  Clearly, this author either
>was afraid to buck the system or his editor told him not to rock
>the boat, especially when well known people in physics say that
>the claims are nonsense.  Once again the myth about CANR
>continues, once again the power of influential scientists is
>made obvious, and once again objectivity in the scientific
>profession is revealed as a myth.

Does anyone know the background of Beals or if has written any other
articles on cold fusion 
in the past? I would like to know if he is getting the same old dumb
pathological science version 
of the story from the standard cast of characters (Huizenga, Park etc...)
or whether its new folks 
who haven't commented on the case before.

IMO this kind of article is worse than not having the will to rock the
boat. It really wouldn't hurt to talk
about some of the new experiments and data...  there doesn't need to be any
frantic hand-waving just the statement that "scientists continue to be
puzzled by anomalous results in cold fusion experiments."
No offense intended but one doesn't have to have the convinction of Jed or
Eugene Mallove to at least mention this stuff (I should point out though
that without folks like Jed and Gene we'd be short on CF news on this
list). Isn't there some middle ground between seeing cold fusion research
only as pathological science and the argument that a monumental scientific
revolution is in the making? Are the stakes really so high in this
conflict? Perhaps reporters need to be coaxed into more of a middle
position... some kind of rhetorical wedge that makes simply looking at the
data less of a heresy.

I'll say its a testament to the strength and resiliance of the CF community
that their activities continue to prompt the need for reporters to keep
reproducing CF as pathological science.  Most of the time, as I see it, the
mainstream orthodoxy prefers to stay silent so something must be nagging at
these folks. 

cheers,
Bart
------------------------------------------------------
Bart Simon, Asst. Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Concordia University, LB-687
1455 De Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
Montreal, Quebec, Canada  H3G 1M8

phone: 514-848-2164
email: simonb alcor.concordia.ca
-------------------------------------------------------

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 12:56:52 2001
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> [I expect Lochbaum is exaggerating. I have seen what Cessna accidents do.
> We get one every year or so here at PDK airport -- three this year. I have
> seen photographs, one wreck in person, and a twin engine plane came down in
> nearby friend's driveway. The accidents are seldom serious, except to the
> pilot and passengers, of course. - JR]

There was an interesting piece on 60 Minutes last night about the
vulnerability of the Nuke Plants.  They showed a test where a F4
fighter was launched via a rocket sled into a 4 ft. thick,
steel-reinforced concrete wall (containment buildings are 6 to 12
ft. thick).  The F4 totally disintegrated penetrating only 4
inches into the test wall.

The show also noted the difficulty of targeting a nuclear
containment building with a large aircraft.  The WTC provided a
target several orders of magnitude larger than most nuke plants. 
They also mentioned the difficulty in steering a large craft that
close to the ground.

Of course, as you mentioned, nuke waste transport and storage is
a different issue.  De-railing a train offers little technical
challenge.

Regards,

Terry

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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:14:35 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Brief article in Newsweek on cold fusion
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Bart Simon wrote:

>Does anyone know the background of Beals or if has written any other
>articles on cold fusion in the past? I would like to know if he is getting 
>the same old dumb pathological science version of the story from the 
>standard cast of characters

It looks like a different cast of characters, but you can elicit comments 
like this from just about any professor of physics in the country. I saw 
hundreds of them at the APS, applauding & cheering this kind of grotesque 
mockery. On the back of the Taubes book, four Nobel Laureates and the 
president of the AAAS lavishly praise the book.

Given the widespread hostility toward CF, it may be a little unfair to 
blame Beals entirely for this presentation. You might say this is the only 
format CF is allowed to take. Nearly every scientist and science journalist 
will insist CF be treated as insanity.

I have often approached these people in person, or written to them, and 
said things like: "but, look at these papers from Mitsubishi!" They assume 
I am crazy, like a member of the flat earth society or a perpetual motion 
machine inventor. They must think I dummy up these Abstracts and papers on 
my word processor. They literally refuse to look even glance at the titles. 
They are seldom upset. They usually try to humor me, the way I try to humor 
perpetual motion machine kooks who sometimes show up at my door. It never 
occurs to them that there might be actual scientific papers.

A few people get angry. The screwballs who inhabit s.p.f. lash out at 
everything, not just cold fusion. Occasionally, in real life people have 
accused me of fabricating material. One engineer said that I showed him the 
bound, printed book of JCF-2 conference Abstracts. Dieter Britz has accused 
me of inventing results and documents several times. He thinks I invented 
Notoya's results, and I fabricated an e-mail message from Melvin Miles. He 
refuses to contact Miles directly, I suppose because he wants "plausible 
deniability."

Britz has many peculiar and upside down ideas. He once told me that Storms 
never published positive evidence of excess heat. He recently claimed that 
the Bauer book "Science or Pseudoscience" is "very charitable towards cold 
fusion." Bauer concluded that cold fusion does not exist. He wrote: "it 
seems increasingly unlikely that there is a genuine energy yielding process 
in 'cold fusion.'" (p. 105) Most skeptics would say Bauer is on their side. 
If this is charity, I would hate to see what Britz calls an attack.

- Jed

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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> See:
> 
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/639202.asp
> 
> This is the usual nonsense. Disappointing but not surprising.
> 
> - Jed

You are right. It may not worth to consider an article where author can not make difference between proton and neutron.

   "Take a beaker of “heavy” water, which contains extra protons,
   nudge them gently with chemicals, and you’ve got fusion
   without the need for so much as a Bunsen burner."


Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 13:38:57 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Fission plants seen vulnerable - more Nation quotes
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>There was an interesting piece on 60 Minutes last night about the
>vulnerability of the Nuke Plants.  They showed a test where a F4
>fighter was launched via a rocket sled into a 4 ft. thick,
>steel-reinforced concrete wall (containment buildings are 6 to 12
>ft. thick).

Bear in mind, Lochbaum was saying that a Cessna could cause havoc with the 
spent fuel storage facilities, not the reactor containment building.  I do 
not known how well these storage facility building are constructed, but the 
spent fuel is at the bottom of deep concrete lined pools of water. That 
seems like pretty good protection, even if a thin roof over the building is 
demolished.


>Of course, as you mentioned, nuke waste transport and storage is
>a different issue.  De-railing a train offers little technical
>challenge.

Honestly, I am not very worried about this. The articles are food for 
thought, but the problem is exaggerated. The containers are designed to 
survive severe accidents such as derailment, and they are rigorously 
tested. I do not think an ordinary terrorist could penetrate one in a few 
minutes. It would take hours, and the authorities would show up in force in 
20 minutes or less. A Cessna would bounce off a container. A large airplane 
might penetrate it, but a container is a small, moving target, very 
difficult to hit with an airplane.

I would not worry about sabotage so much as sloppy mistakes. They will have 
to move thousands of canisters from all parts of the U.S. into Yucca 
Mountain, over several years. Most industrial accidents begin with a stupid 
mistake. Sooner or later, someone may get lazy, cut a corner, or screw up. 
I would not want to live near the highway or railroads that converge on the 
Yucca site.

It should be noted that conventional energy technology is vulnerable to 
attacks and idiotic mistakes. The other day, a 37-year-old drunk man shot 
the Alaska pipeline with a rifle, causing a 285,000 gallon spill. It was 
the largest spill in the 24-year history of the pipeline.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 13:45:10 2001
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:45:09 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Brief article in Newsweek on cold fusion
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hamdi ucar wrote:

>You are right. It may not worth to consider an article where author can 
>not make difference between proton and neutron.
>
>    "Take a beaker of "heavy" water, which contains extra protons . . .

Yikes! I missed that.

I guess I did not bother to read it closely, but I should have caught that 
silly mistake. I guess Beals is not the science editor, or if he is, they 
need a new science editor!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 13:49:26 2001
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:43:10 -0500
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From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
Subject: Lifter test: looks like a fan
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Hi all,

Well I built the lifter. It worked. It slewed my balance beam around in a 
big arc. So, I next took it and put it inside a clear plastic polyethylene 
terephthalate container of suitable dimensions and light weight. (it was a 
2-liter pepsi bottle, bottom cut out) I put the lifter in this, and ran 
leads into it just as I had them set up when it was unshielded. I put clear 
plastic tape over the open ends, so it was now a sealed system.

I applied voltage...and nothing happened. The air sounded as if it was 
circulating within the bottle, but NO THRUST AT ALL. I hate to rain on 
parades, but this looks like a fan to me. A way of thrusting against a 
dielectric medium (air, liquid, etc.). Also, as to why it may work in 
vacuum...in most vacuums there is still air present. Not much, but a 
little. Since the mean free path in a near vacuum is longer, you can 
accelerate the ions to much higher speeds it would seem. And thus I could 
see getting comparable thrust in the near vacuum...you are moving less 
stuff faster in the near vacuum, whereas you are moving more stuff slower 
in the regular atmosphere.

Comments please.

--Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 14:08:41 2001
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Subject: Re: Lifter test: looks like a fan
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On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Well I built the lifter. It worked. It slewed my balance beam around in a 
> big arc. So, I next took it and put it inside a clear plastic polyethylene 
> terephthalate container of suitable dimensions and light weight. (it was a 
> 2-liter pepsi bottle, bottom cut out) I put the lifter in this, and ran 
> leads into it just as I had them set up when it was unshielded. I put clear 
> plastic tape over the open ends, so it was now a sealed system.
> 
> I applied voltage...and nothing happened. The air sounded as if it was 
> circulating within the bottle, but NO THRUST AT ALL.

Good job. Was the lifter rising in the bottle, and the bottle attached to
your balance, and the balance showing no lift? It's a little unclear as to
what you mean by no thrust at all.

> I hate to rain on 
> parades, but this looks like a fan to me. A way of thrusting against a 
> dielectric medium (air, liquid, etc.). Also, as to why it may work in 
> vacuum...in most vacuums there is still air present. Not much, but a 
> little. Since the mean free path in a near vacuum is longer, you can 
> accelerate the ions to much higher speeds it would seem. And thus I could 
> see getting comparable thrust in the near vacuum...you are moving less 
> stuff faster in the near vacuum, whereas you are moving more stuff slower 
> in the regular atmosphere.
> 
> Comments please.

I would like more info, but it appears that you've shown it to be a cute
little ion engine using conventional physics.

Have you ever looked at Woodward's impulse engine?
http://chaos.fullerton.edu/~jimw/
http://chaos.fullerton.edu/Woodward.html
http://chaos.fullerton.edu/~jimw/staif2000.pdf

This one impresses me. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 14:38:55 2001
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:32:08 -0500
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From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
Subject: Re: Lifter test: looks like a fan
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>Good job. Was the lifter rising in the bottle, and the bottle attached to
>your balance, and the balance showing no lift? It's a little unclear as to
>what you mean by no thrust at all.

The device was held rigidly inside the bottle. The bottle would have moved 
along with the device if it generated thrust, but it didn't. It just sat 
there on the balance beam.

>I would like more info, but it appears that you've shown it to be a cute
>little ion engine using conventional physics.

That's really what it looks like to me. I could be wrong of course.

>Have you ever looked at Woodward's impulse engine?
>http://chaos.fullerton.edu/~jimw/
>http://chaos.fullerton.edu/Woodward.html
>http://chaos.fullerton.edu/~jimw/staif2000.pdf

Yes, it is interesting indeed. If I had the time I would work on it. I'm 
not sure exactly what to make of it but it does look as though he is on to 
something.

--Kyle

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 15:01:32 2001
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Your comments are absolutely correct. However, the important issue is why the
article was written this way.  The journalist is not incompetent nor is he
ignorant.  A person does not get to work for Newsweek without skill and he
would have been given all of the information you find lacking by Mike McKubre
or by simply reading my website.  The reason for the approach taken is more
basic, hence can not be changed simply by writing a letter to the editor.  If
the editor had taken a balanced approach he would have essentially called
leaders in the physics profession liars.  This would have generated
significant pressure from the publisher to change the approach.  The author
of the article is simply following orders and is not free to write a
different article.  As long as leaders in physics hold to their ignorant and
shortsighted opinion, no objective articles will be written in mainstream
media.  The only event that will change the situation will be a discovery of
how to make the effect so reproducible a high-school dropout can demonstrate
the claims at a level that can not be ignored.  Anything else is a waste of
time.  I suggest you read "Disciplined Minds" by Jeff Schmidt if you want an
understanding of what is going on in this subject and in many others.

Ed Storms


Stephen Lajoie wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> > See:
> >
> > http://www.msnbc.com/news/639202.asp
> >
> > This is the usual nonsense. Disappointing but not surprising.
> >
> > - Jed
>
> The Newsweek article was not even worth reading. It was a collection of
> errors; it is a textbook example of what science is not. "Too good to be
> true", "hard core true believers", "butt of jokes", "hope the
> establishment is wrong", "so elegant and appealing that it is difficult to
> resist", and "part company with main stream scientist".
>
> None of this, of course, has anything to do with science in the slightest
> way. It is an exercise in seeing how many anti-science errors can be
> crammed into one brief article. It is pathetic that this is what most
> people think is "science". We have a collection of paragraphs where the
> author of the article tries to determine scientific fact by noting who is
> ridiculing whom, what the popular vote is among people who have never
> studied it and thus cannot offer a scientific opinion, and the concept
> that something good cannot be scientific fact. All arguments that have no
> place in science.
>
> There was not one mention of fusion ash in the form of 4He, 3He and the
> unmistakable tritium. No mention of commensurate heat. No mention of low
> levels of neutrons and soft x-rays, or the transmutation of elements in
> the catalysts. Absolutely no mention of the McKubre/George replication of
> the Arata experiment where tritium was found in places that could only be
> due to cold fusion. In short, every stupid argument that could be
> conceived that was contrary to cold fusion was given, and absolutely no
> mention of experimental facts and data was given to support cold fusion.
> In the end, nature dictates the behavior of nature, not the ill-educated
> who use ridicule, deliberate ignorance and appeals to authority. Ask the
> experiment, not the authority.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 15:18:41 2001
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Subject: Re: Lifter test: looks like a fan
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An ion engine that can operate with little loss of efficency between 1 ATM
and a near vacuume isn't totally useless. :-) 

This is a good example of how any unexplained upward force is called
"antigravity" by some. 

Again, good job at showing this to be a simple ion engine and putting the
"Biefield Brown Effect" to bed. 


On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> 
> >Good job. Was the lifter rising in the bottle, and the bottle attached to
> >your balance, and the balance showing no lift? It's a little unclear as to
> >what you mean by no thrust at all.
> 
> The device was held rigidly inside the bottle. The bottle would have moved 
> along with the device if it generated thrust, but it didn't. It just sat 
> there on the balance beam.
> 
> >I would like more info, but it appears that you've shown it to be a cute
> >little ion engine using conventional physics.
> 
> That's really what it looks like to me. I could be wrong of course.
> 
> >Have you ever looked at Woodward's impulse engine?
> >http://chaos.fullerton.edu/~jimw/
> >http://chaos.fullerton.edu/Woodward.html
> >http://chaos.fullerton.edu/~jimw/staif2000.pdf
> 
> Yes, it is interesting indeed. If I had the time I would work on it. I'm 
> not sure exactly what to make of it but it does look as though he is on to 
> something.
> 
> --Kyle
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 16:19:16 2001
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Subject: Re: Brief article in Newsweek on cold fusion
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>If the editor had taken a balanced approach he would have essentially 
>called leaders in the physics profession liars.  This would have generated 
>significant pressure from the publisher to change the approach.

No doubt!


>The author of the article is simply following orders and is not free to 
>write a different article.

Perhaps he is following explicit orders, but it seems likely to me that no 
orders and no pressure were needed. I suppose he feels this is the right & 
proper thing to do, and this is a "balanced" article. Many people would 
agree, including many who consider themselves friends of cold fusion. They 
are what you might call "high-minded fence sitters." They pride themselves 
on having an open mind and on occupying the high moral ground. With perfect 
evenhandedness, they criticize Ed Storms for saying cold fusion is real and 
Huizenga for saying it is not.

Britz is a perfect example. He is utterly sincere when he says that he and 
Bauer are objective observers who do not take sides. He finds something 
good to say about the Taubes as well as Mallove. He goes to extreme mental 
contortions to avoid taking a stand or reaching a logical conclusion. For 
example, on a good day when he is feeling charitable he may admit that 
Fritz Will's tritium data is good. On some other occasion he might concede 
that Storms' tritium data is pretty good too. But once having admitted 
that, *he will go no further*, no matter what. He will NEVER -- absolutely, 
positively never -- admit on the same day in the same message that: 1. They 
are both good; 2. So is Bockris; 3. The same causal connection might unite 
all three, along with a hundred other reports of tritium; 4. They might be 
considered verifications or replications. His ironclad, will-not-budge 
position is that nothing has been replicated. He looks at data in 
isolation, and dismisses results piecemeal, in what might be called the 
divide and conquer approach. To him, the "totality of results" is an empty 
abstraction. All results are local, specific to one instance, and you can 
always find a reason to dismiss Bockris on Monday when believe Will, and 
Will on Tuesday when you believe Bockris. The Red Queen described the art 
of believing seven impossible things at once. Britz and his ilk have 
perfected the art of believing seven undeniable things, but only one at a 
time, mutually exclusive to one-another.

Ed Storms condemns scientists as a class, and says their objectivity is a 
myth. I think this is a little severe. Naturally, scientists can be as 
irrational as anyone else, despite their training. They are usually good at 
being objective, but sometimes they are blinded by their own petty 
concerns. This is human nature. Programmers can be illogical and 
unorganized -- a cardinal sin in that profession. Doctors will sometimes 
fail to take simple precautions against infection. A famous gourmet chef 
recently gave himself and his guest severe food poisoning. Bankers & 
accountants are routinely swindled by schemes as old as civilization. As 
the Japanese say, even monkeys fall out of trees.

Cold fusion is an extreme example, but scientists have sometimes been blind 
en mass, for many years, as they were with regard to continental drift, for 
example.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 16:29:24 2001
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:28:17 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: Brief article in Newsweek on cold fusion
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What I find depressing about articles like this is that the reporters 
make no effort to include objective facts. Everything is opinion. 
There is never any mention of specific experiments. It is as if cold 
fusion was a theoretical

it's enough to make you want to send the reporter an email asking 
them if they are engaged in a conspiracy to suppress new technology, 
or if they are just stupid, doesn't it?

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 16:29:24 2001
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:28:17 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Transdimensional "lifter"
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I recall, the energy required to lift 
a unit of mass with this technology is greater than that consumed by 
a rocket.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 16:44:08 2001
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On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, thomas malloy wrote:

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I recall, the energy required to lift 
> a unit of mass with this technology is greater than that consumed by 
> a rocket.
> -- 
 
You can probably make ion engines more efficent and the rocket less so. It
is not a case of "all rockets are more efficent than all ion engines". It
might seem that you can say that because rocket's throw out more mass at
lower velocities. The catch is that rockets have to lift that mass they
are going to later throw out. Ion engines will be lifting smaller masses
to throw out the back end, or can even use air. 

This is what makes Woodward's device so important. You carry NO mass for
the rocket impulse or to feed ions to the ion engine. The energy you need
to carry to achieve orbit is the energy required to put the vessel into
orbit; and not to lift all that rocket thrust.

Imagine the possibilities!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 18:52:11 2001
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 15 21:06:45 2001
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:13:52 -0500
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fission plants seen vulnerable
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Jed:

For the purpose of discussion Many of these problems have been taken care 
of already

First is the aircraft impact.  Plants made in the mid 70's and later in the 
US have taken into consideration a direct impact of a fully loaded 
747.  These use 12ft outer walls to protect the containment vessel which 
uses the 4 ft re-enforced and laminated walls in the interior.  Also the 
flooding problem has been solved following the three mile island event.

The remaining plants are still safe not because an impact has been 
considered but because the possibility has been eliminated.  A terrorist 
team even if allowed on the aircraft now does not only have to over power 
the crew but a good percentage of the passengers.  Attitudes have changed.

Second is the possibility of plant invasion.  Since it is now a real threat 
(not just a mock test) The attitudes of the people have changed.  We are in 
a different mode now. Most people realize that we are at war.  Also they 
realize the significant possibility that we will fight a good portion of 
that war here.  In the home land.  At the gates of the power plants and in 
the stands of the football stadiums and in the crowded subway tunnels.

This afternoon our receptionist came into my lab to ask for some latex 
gloves.  Because "American" is a proud part of our company name we believe 
we are a target.  Roxanne actually did some research and came up with the 
idea herself.  In fact our web site has already been attacked several 
times.  Replacing our promotional texts with anti American slogans (in 
poorly translated English.  After the first attack no others have been able 
to penetrate the fire wall.   The one successful attack took us down for 
about three hours while Rick fixed it.  (Rick is our net geek)   Yes we 
actually had to take orders by phone.  :-)





At 02:07 PM 10/15/01 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:


>THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 27 2001 Western targets Nuclear reactors vulnerable to 
>attack
>
>BY MARK HENDERSON, SCIENCE CORRESPONDENT
>
>The impact of a crash and high temperatures caused by burning aviation 
>fuel could easily buckle the 4ft of concrete and steel cladding that 
>protects reactor cores, David Kyd, the agency's chief spokesman, said.




_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 05:22:42 2001
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(repost after 2.4 hours)

Hi Kyle,

Thanks lot for doing this ultimate test. I have only few minor arguments against
the effect was pure ion wind trust. This is based to the possibility that ion wind
and the unknown trust came together but in your setup you may never reached a
condition to obtain the unknown trust. So your setup consisted of pure ion
wind experiment and enclosure of the lifter nullified the effect. This sound
little lunatic but we must  eliminate all possibilities before to throw the
lifter to trash can.


"Kyle R. Mcallister" wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Well I built the lifter. It worked. It slewed my balance beam around in a
> big arc. So, I next took it and put it inside a clear plastic polyethylene
> terephthalate container of suitable dimensions and light weight. (it was a
> 2-liter pepsi bottle, bottom cut out) I put the lifter in this, and ran
> leads into it just as I had them set up when it was unshielded. I put clear
> plastic tape over the open ends, so it was now a sealed system.

Frankly, when I read "Pepsi bottle", I guessed the experiment didn't worked.
You may had better result if you had used Coke bottle. :)

It is also (oddly) possible the bottle inner surface contained some humidity or
the plastic material interacting with ions generated a field that not allowing
 the effect occurs. 

These possibilities are marginal, so before performing other tests it would
better to calculate precisely the upper limit ion wind trust.


> 
> I applied voltage...and nothing happened. The air sounded as if it was
> circulating within the bottle, but NO THRUST AT ALL. I hate to rain on
> parades, but this looks like a fan to me. A way of thrusting against a
> dielectric medium (air, liquid, etc.). Also, as to why it may work in
> vacuum...in most vacuums there is still air present. Not much, but a
> little. Since the mean free path in a near vacuum is longer, you can
> accelerate the ions to much higher speeds it would seem. And thus I could
> see getting comparable thrust in the near vacuum...you are moving less
> stuff faster in the near vacuum, whereas you are moving more stuff slower
> in the regular atmosphere.
> 
> Comments please.
> 
> --Kyle R. Mcallister

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 08:41:29 2001
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Subject: Re: Fission plants seen vulnerable
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Charles Ford wrote:

>For the purpose of discussion Many of these problems have been taken care 
>of already

I think so. A nuclear power plant would be a difficult target. I expect 
terrorists know about many other targets that would be easier and less 
risky. Still, vigilance will be needed as long as fission plants exist, and 
the plans to build pebble bed reactors without strong containment must be 
reexamined.

Attacks on nuclear fuel in transit to Yucca Mountain are somewhat more 
likely, I think, but I do not see how they would succeed without heavy 
artillery.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 09:48:34 2001
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Terry Blanton wrote:

any
> > form if CF becomes a reality, no matter how clever and farsighted Shell
> > executives may be. There will be no role for them.
>
>Someone has to build my CF Sterling Home Generator.

Yes, but not Shell. They have no expertise in building home HVAC or small 
generators. Established companies like Tecumseh and Hitachi have been 
building engines for decades, so they will be well positioned to build CF 
engines. The engineering, customer support, and other business-related 
challenges will be similar to those of ICE, and very different from the 
kinds of problems Shell understands.

Furthermore, after the market stabilizes and CF becomes the standard, there 
will far less profit in CF than there was in oil. Think about what Shell 
does for a living. They prospect, refine, and transport millions of tons of 
toxic, explosive chemicals. This is an astounding accomplishment! They get 
paid well because what they do is difficult. It is hard to compete with 
them. You need a gigantic infrastructure and thousands of highly paid 
experts. Building a CF engine will someday become so easy that any start-up 
company with $10 million will be able to do it. The engines will be 
commodities, like today's personal computers. The fuel part (what Shell now 
supplies) will cost virtually nothing, and will bring in no measurable 
profit to anyone. One low level 24-year-old technician will check the heavy 
water generator once a day, and his labor will replace the labor of 
ten-thousand highly skilled, high income Shell employees.


>Didn't Shell sponsor early CF (semi-public) research?

They still do as far as I know. It is quite public. The research is 
performed by J. Dufour, and described in most ICCF proceedings. Shell is 
doing the right thing, albeit on a microscopic scale. Perhaps they deserve 
to survive and prosper, but I would bet against it, based on what I know of 
history, business and management. I could be wrong; history is full of 
surprises. Still, as Damon Runyon said, "The race is not always to the 
swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 10:00:46 2001
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If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way.

- Mark Twain

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 10:30:59 2001
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Subject: Response from Britz
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I was surprised to receive a response from Dieter Britz to the message I 
posted here. Here is what he wrote, and my response to him. My message is a 
little too gamy for this forum. I apologize for posting such strong 
language. I thought of editing it, but decided it would be best to show the 
whole thing.

Britz and Huizenga are the only two intelligent "skeptics" I know of who 
have actually read and understood the literature. They give me the creeps. 
Robert Park is a sinister jerk but he knows nothing about cold fusion, 
which renders him less harmful, in a sense. Douglas Morrison was a fool, 
perpetually confused about the simplest details. He never understood why a 
gram of hydride cannot produce megajoules of chemical energy. He once 
loudly and memorably said, "why should nickel and palladium act any 
different? They are the same thing." In other words, metal is metal. This 
is so embarrassing, how could it be anything but a mistake?

Despite his creepy behavior, Britz has made a useful contribution to the 
field, which should be acknowledged. Ed Storms says the Britz on-line 
bibliography is quite useful. I find some of the summaries extremely 
slanted, to the point where Britz claims the opposite of what the authors 
actually say, but I suppose one can extract useful information from the 
database despite the bias.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:21:39 +0200
From: Dieter Britz <db chem.au.dk>
To: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Fence-sitting

 > Britz is a perfect example. He is utterly sincere when he says that
 > he and Bauer are objective observers who do not take sides. He finds
 > something good to say about the Taubes as well as Mallove. He goes to
 > extreme mental contortions to avoid taking a stand or reaching a
 > logical conclusion. For

Thank you again... I take this sort of singling out in a forum that I don't 
frequent as a kind of honour. As a scientist, I must say I find it most 
honest to sit on the fence, while there is a lack of "compelling" evidence 
(to use a Mallovism). We can (do) disagree about that evidence, but if I 
were to jump on one side or the other, I would be dishonest. You seem to 
believe that my standpoint has a more sinister origin; your problem.

By the way, although I like Storms and regard him as an OK scientist, and 
have said so, I have never expressed myself positively, specifically on his 
tritium results. I think he does better with calorimetry and I believe his 
tritium results were artifactual. You really ought, in your
diatribes on me, keep your facts straight. I know it's easy to get them 
mixed up, but when you write a personal attack, you should go to the 
trouble of making sure you are right. Alternatively, don't write personal 
attacks... The too-hard basket, I know.

-- Dieter Britz http://www.chem.au.dk/~db

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
RESPONSE:

I do not understand your objections to my note. You seem to agree with me 
on all points, except that you think your position is justified, and I do 
not. Today is Tuesday so you denigrate Storms' tritium results while you 
agree his calorimetry is pretty good. On Wednesday you will admit his 
tritium isn't bad, but you will dismiss the calorimetry. On Thursday you 
will dismiss all of his results, but you will be prepared to admit that 
Bockris may know how to measure tritium after all. Of course you have no 
actual reason to doubt any of these results -- but you do not need a reason.

You wrote:

>Thank you again... I take this sort of singling out in a forum that
>I don't frequent as a kind of honour. As a scientist, I must say I
>find it most honest to sit on the fence . . .

In the face of overwhelming evidence? After McKubre and Clarke find 10E15 
atoms of tritium, and Mizuno watches 37 liters of water evaporate, your 
doubts are not "scientific." They are pathological nonsense, no better than 
"creationist" doubts about evolution.


but if I were to jump on one side or the other, I
>would be dishonest. You seem to believe that my standpoint has a more
>sinister origin; your problem.

I would not call it sinister. I suppose you must be stupid, ignorant, and 
intellectually dishonest. Many people agree with you, but I think most 
people are stupid, ignorant, and intellectually dishonest. It is the human 
condition.


>By the way, although I like Storms and regard him as an OK scientist,
>and have said so . . .

On the other hand, you do lie about what he claims. I expect he does not 
care for that, but he is used to it.

[I refer to Britz's earlier statements, in which he said that Storms does 
not  claim and did not measure excess heat.]


>. . . I have never expressed myself positively, specifically on his 
>tritium results.

Of course not! Even you cannot bring yourself to lie so extravagantly. For 
that matter, you have never actually said that Will's results, and 
McKubre's 10E15 atoms of tritium are a mistake. You don't have the guts to 
"express yourself" so clearly. You have never attacked McKubre's 
calorimetry either, or said that Mizuno dreamed up the heat after death 
event. Where the evidence is overwhelming, you evade, tap dance, and 
finally you shut up. Schultz, who is much stupider than you, will actually 
claim  that some "mundane" chemical reaction can produce 50 MJ from 100 
grams of material, but you will not fall into that trap.


>I think he does better with calorimetry and I believe his tritium results 
>were artifactual.

Oh yes, of course you do! Naturally. But you have no reason to believe 
this.  You probably realize that if the results were contamination, Storms 
and his coworkers would be dead, so you must wave your hand and pretend it 
is an "artifact" instead. This is preposterous though. You probably know 
that the experts at the premier U.S. nuclear bomb laboratory are quite 
capable of measuring tritium, along with the experts at BARC, since that is 
what they for a living, and they would be dead if they did it wrong.


>You really ought, in your diatribes on me, keep your facts straight.

How can I? You invent "facts" too quickly. Today, the people Los Alamos 
cannot measure tritium. Tomorrow you will say that Bockris cannot do 
calorimetry, even though he hired the best man in Texas to advise him. Next 
week no doubt you will come up with a reason why Akimoto cannot detect 
neutrons. Perhaps you can keep your lies and fantasies straight, but I cannot.


>I know it's easy to get them mixed up, but when you write a personal 
>attack, you should go to the trouble of making sure you are right.

You are too fast for accuracy. I cannot hit a moving target.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 10:40:39 2001
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:48:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
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	A home without a cat, a well fed well petted cat is still a home,
but you can't prove it by me.

				MT


i

On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way.
> 
> - Mark Twain
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 10:48:59 2001
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I am concerned that even though there is a lot of energy in a small amount
of deuterium, large amounts of deuterium seem to be needed to get the >.85
D/Metal ratio cold fusion requires. 

Engineering wise, it looks to me to be a problem of keeping the metal
hydride loaded while getting the temperature as hot as possible. The
hotter the hydride, the higher the pressure required to maintain loading.

I think Titanium is the metal hydride of choice. I don't see why so many
people are using Palladium.

On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> any
> > > form if CF becomes a reality, no matter how clever and farsighted Shell
> > > executives may be. There will be no role for them.
> >
> >Someone has to build my CF Sterling Home Generator.
> 
> Yes, but not Shell. They have no expertise in building home HVAC or small 
> generators. Established companies like Tecumseh and Hitachi have been 
> building engines for decades, so they will be well positioned to build CF 
> engines. The engineering, customer support, and other business-related 
> challenges will be similar to those of ICE, and very different from the 
> kinds of problems Shell understands.
> 
> Furthermore, after the market stabilizes and CF becomes the standard, there 
> will far less profit in CF than there was in oil. Think about what Shell 
> does for a living. They prospect, refine, and transport millions of tons of 
> toxic, explosive chemicals. This is an astounding accomplishment! They get 
> paid well because what they do is difficult. It is hard to compete with 
> them. You need a gigantic infrastructure and thousands of highly paid 
> experts. Building a CF engine will someday become so easy that any start-up 
> company with $10 million will be able to do it. The engines will be 
> commodities, like today's personal computers. The fuel part (what Shell now 
> supplies) will cost virtually nothing, and will bring in no measurable 
> profit to anyone. One low level 24-year-old technician will check the heavy 
> water generator once a day, and his labor will replace the labor of 
> ten-thousand highly skilled, high income Shell employees.
> 
> 
> >Didn't Shell sponsor early CF (semi-public) research?
> 
> They still do as far as I know. It is quite public. The research is 
> performed by J. Dufour, and described in most ICCF proceedings. Shell is 
> doing the right thing, albeit on a microscopic scale. Perhaps they deserve 
> to survive and prosper, but I would bet against it, based on what I know of 
> history, business and management. I could be wrong; history is full of 
> surprises. Still, as Damon Runyon said, "The race is not always to the 
> swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet."
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 11:44:07 2001
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:






>I am concerned that even though there is a lot of energy in a small amount
>of deuterium, large amounts of deuterium seem to be needed to get the >.85
>D/Metal ratio cold fusion requires.

The mass of metal is small, and it takes only a little gas to saturate it. 
The only problem is that the deuterium leaks out and has to be replenished 
constantly, which drains energy.

Thin film or finely subdivided metal would greatly reduce the amount of gas 
taken up in the hydride.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 12:23:20 2001
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On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >I am concerned that even though there is a lot of energy in a small amount
> >of deuterium, large amounts of deuterium seem to be needed to get the >.85
> >D/Metal ratio cold fusion requires.
> 
> The mass of metal is small, and it takes only a little gas to saturate it. 

I was thinking of a large mass to increase the surface area for good
thermal contact with the thermodynamic fluid (or ion collectors or
whatever...) but you can use a thin film of metal, as you say, huh. 

Nevermind... 

> The only problem is that the deuterium leaks out and has to be replenished 
> constantly, which drains energy.

I'd use gas loading and keep it under pressure; keeping it under constant
pressure should control the temperature. If it gets too hot, it begins to
unload. Too cold, it loads more deuterium and increases the fusion
process. 

You could also load a thin sheet of Ti, seal it by exposing it to oxygen
to form a TiO oxide layer on the surface, and then control the fusion by
putting an electric field across the metal. The greater the field, the
more fusion. That one Italian researcher got higher energy densities out
of Pd-D than you find in a nuclear power reactor.

I don't see deuterium deloading as a problem to a practical cold fusion
power reactor. 

> Thin film or finely subdivided metal would greatly reduce the amount of gas 
> taken up in the hydride.

Exactly. How blind of me to not see the obvious. 

> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 13:08:37 2001
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:03:05 -0400
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Subject: Fujii et al. claim excess heat with light water
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In JCF Abstract JCF3-2, Fujii et al. (Yokohama National University) report 
strong excess heat with light water, using Pd and Pd coated Ni rods. In 
previous years, I was not impressed with the cathode design they chose. 
They said it was based on the Patterson cathode, but it looked completely 
different to me, consisting of small Ni rods chopped into short segments. 
They have very high quality calorimetry, with equipment inherited from the 
NHE program. In this series of experiments, they ran 19 times with no heat, 
14 runs with marginal excess heat (less than 10%), and large excess heat in 
only 4 runs, varying from 25% to 100% of input. It worries me a little that 
the largest heat came shortly after electrolysis commenced.

Most previous claims for heat with light water have been based on poor 
calorimetry, which I did not trust. I am so pleased to see they made this 
effort. This group has been working for years with little or no success, so 
they certainly deserve these results.

I hope to visit them and get a first-hand look at the equipment.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 13:32:29 2001
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Subject: Re: Fujii et al. claim excess heat with light water
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On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> In JCF Abstract JCF3-2, Fujii et al. (Yokohama National University) report 
> strong excess heat with light water, using Pd and Pd coated Ni rods. In 

What is "JCF"? Journal Cold Fusion? Japanese Commerical Fishing? :-) 

I want to look this one up, if possible. Light water, huh? 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 13:34:17 2001
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Subject: Re: Fujii et al. claim excess heat with light water
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>What is "JCF"? Journal Cold Fusion? Japanese Commerical Fishing? :-)

Japan CF society. See:

http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/file/jcf3abstract.pdf

The Abstracts are for a conference next week.

- Jed

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: test
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:12:35 +1000
Organization: Improving
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i told you so!
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 17:02:19 2001
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http://www.nature.com/nature/fow/011011.html

Free access to full text

Regards, hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 19:32:10 2001
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At 01:00 PM 10/16/01 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way.
>
>- Mark Twain

Hmm...  Twain must have had cats.




He is right you know.




_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 16 21:55:22 2001
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:53:39 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: Fission plants seen vulnerable - more Nation quotes
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You people are totally missing the point. Did you see the part of the 
50 Minutes segment that showed the guys doing a dummy assault on the 
plant. I think that the containment building would withstand a 747 
flying into it. but some sucide commando at the controls is an 
entirely different matter.
-- 

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Brief article in Newsweek on cold fusion
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>Ed Storms wrote;



>significant pressure from the publisher to change the approach.  The author
>of the article is simply following orders and is not free to write a
>different article.  As long as leaders in physics hold to their ignorant and
>

As I said; this is a conspiracy to impead the progress of science.

-- 

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In a message dated 10/16/01 10:34:06 PM Central Daylight Time, 
cjford1 yahoo.com writes:

< Hmm...  Twain must have had cats. 

More likely a good point of observation, as someone else learned IT.

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At 09:01 AM 10/17/01 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 10/16/01 10:34:06 PM Central Daylight Time,
>cjford1 yahoo.com writes:
>
>< Hmm...  Twain must have had cats.
>
>More likely a good point of observation, as someone else learned IT.

Truly the most favorable way to learn....  Especially this type of lesson :-)
Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: Bart Simon <simonb alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Scientific American attacks cold fusion again
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I like Jed's protest letter as it hits all the right notes but I wonder if
stronger wording against using the term cold fusion would help any (like
saying I agree cold fusion is crazy but this isn't cold fusion). I'd
definately save Chris Tinsley's all-purpose letter for more special occasions.

Other than those that appear from time to time in IE. I have been having
difficulty tracking down post 1992 pro-CF letters from established
scientists and engineers who are not CF researchers. Have any of you seen
any of these in any of the mainstream science media? Even a letter saying
lets give these folks a chance would be nice to see.

As long as i'm asking I have another question that has been haunting me for
some time. Does anyone know of any paper in any mainstream scientific field
that has cited a CF paper? This could be as simple as citing the
calorimeter design or some other mundane aspect of the experimental system.
It seems to me that irrespective of whether one believes the CF effects are
real there are still some innovative experiments being designed that might
be useful for other kinds of less controversial investigations. Does anyone
have any thoughts on where I should look for possible citations?

cheers,
Bart



At 09:28 AM 10/17/01 -0400, you wrote:
>See:
>
>http://www.sciam.com/2001/1101issue/1101skeptic.html
>
>"Baloney Detection - How to draw boundaries between science and 
>pseudoscience, Part I," By Michael Shermer
>
>QUOTE:
>
>"Have the claims been verified by another source?
>
>Typically pseudoscientists make statements that are unverified or verified 
>only by a source within their own belief circle. We must ask, Who is 
>checking the claims, and even who is checking the checkers? The biggest 
>problem with the cold fusion debacle, for instance, was not that Stanley 
>Pons and Martin Fleischman were wrong. It was that they announced their 
>spectacular discovery at a press conference before other laboratories 
>verified it. Worse, when cold fusion was not replicated, they continued to 
>cling to their claim. Outside verification is crucial to good science."
>
>It will do no good, but let me dust off my standard protest letter and zap 
>it off to the editors. Mr. Shermer does not list an e-mail address, not 
>that he would read a letter anyway.
>
>Let me post the latest version of the two standard protest letters here. 
>Perhaps someone will find an error and point it out to me. I will send one 
>to the Sci. Am. after lunch. Given Shermer's snotty attitude, I am tempted 
>to send Letter #2, but I shall refrain.
>
>Perhaps we should all write something?
>
>
>
>Title: Please do not knock cold fusion
>
>Dear Mr. [journalist / bigwig politician / scientist],
>
>In your [column/ speech / dreams] you described cold fusion as 
>[non-existent / a mistake / heresy]. This is incorrect. Although the term 
>"cold fusion" is not scientifically accurate, nuclear effects in 
>solid-state metal lattices do exist, just as Pons and Fleischmann reported 
>in 1989. These effects have been observed repeatedly in hundreds of 
>laboratories, including Los Alamos [1] and several other leading national 
>laboratories. Excess heat, tritium and other evidence has been measured at 
>high signal-to-noise ratios, exceeding Sigma 90 on some occasions. [2] 
>While it remains very difficult to reproduce in most laboratories, over 
>last five years researchers at the Advanced Technology Center, Mitsubishi 
>Heavy Industries have achieved 100 percent reproducibility. [3] Many 
>experiments have been published in the peer reviewed journals in 
>electrochemistry, and physics journals published by American Nuclear 
>Society, the American Chemical Society, and in the Japanese Journal of 
>Applied Physics. Extensive reviews of the field have been published by 
>Edmund Storms. [4]
>
>At this stage in its development, cold fusion produces at most 5 or 10 
>watts of power in a delicate experimental apparatus, near room temperature. 
>It is far from being a practical source of energy. However, the devices are 
>extremely cheap, and the effect is robust once it appears. Experimental and 
>theoretical breakthroughs may rapidly thrust it into the realm of practical 
>technology. Researchers at Hokkaido University have succeeded in producing 
>the effect at high temperatures, in a 3000 deg C plasma, which may allow 
>good Carnot efficiency. [5] Tritium production was verified by 1991 at 
>levels 52 times above the minimum amount their instruments could detect, 
>with 100 percent reproducibility. [6] More recently, tritium has been 
>measured at levels millions of times above the minimum threshold of 
>detection by Pacific Northwest Laboratories. [7]
>
>Most research in this area is conducted in Japan, and in Italy at the 
>Italian National Physical Laboratory. Several senior and retired U.S. 
>researchers who would very much like to do experimental work in this area, 
>but nearly all funding in the U.S. was cut off in 1992 because of fierce 
>opposition to this research from the mainstream physics community. [8] A 
>report from the U.S. Navy covering some recent work by American scientists 
>with 100 percent reproducible palladium boron alloys was described at 
>American Nuclear Society conference, November 12-16, 2000, Marriott Wordman 
>Park hotel, Washington, D.C., during the cold fusion subsection Low-energy 
>Nuclear Reactions II, III. [9]
>
>Sincerely,
>
>
>Jed Rothwell
>
>
>References
>
>1. T. N. Claytor, D. D. Jackson and D. G. Tuggle, "Tritium Production from 
>a Low Voltage Deuterium Discharge on Palladium and Other Metals," 
>http://www.nde.lanl.gov/cf/tritweb.htm
>
>2. SRI International and Electric Power Research Institute, "Development of 
>Advanced Concepts for Nuclear Processes in Deuterated Metals," M.C.H. 
>McKubre, et al., EPRI TR-104195, Research Project 3170-01, Final Report, 
>August 1994, 128 pages, plus 342 pages on microfiche
>
>3. Yasuhiro Iwamura, Takehiro Itoh, Nobuaki Gotoh, Mitsuru Sakano, Ichiro 
>Toyoda and Hiroshi Sakata, "Detection of Anomalous Elements, X-Ray and 
>Excess Heat Induced by Continuous Diffusion of Deuterium Through 
>Multi-Layer Cathode (Pd/CaO/Pd)," proc. Seventh International Conf. Cold 
>Fusion, Vancouver, April 19-24, 1998. See also follow up report Second 
>Annual JCF Conference (JCF-2), October 21 - 22, 2000, Hokkaido National 
>University
>
>4. Reviews by E. Storms have appeared in Fusion Technology, J. Sci. 
>Exploration and Infinite Energy. See
http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html
>
>5. T. Mizuno, T. Ohmori, T. Akimoto and A. Takahashi, "Production of Heat 
>during Plasma Electrolysis in Liquid," Japanese Journal of Applied Physics, 
>Vol. 39 (2000) 6055-6061, Part 1, No. 10, 15 October 2000
>
>6. F. G. Will, K. Cedzynska, D. Linton, "Tritium Generation in Palladium 
>Cathodes with High Deuterium Loading," Transactions of Fusion Technology, 
>Vol. 26, Dec. 1994, p. 209
>
>7. W. Brian Clarke, B. M. Oliver, M. C. H. McKubre, F. L. Tanzella, P. 
>Tripodi, "Search for 3He and 4He in Arata-Style Palladium Cathodes II - 
>Evidence for Tritium Production," Fusion Science and Technology, Volume 40, 
>Number 2, September 2001
>
>8. Julian Schwinger, "Cold Fusion -- Does It Have a Future?," address in 
>memory of Shin'ichiro Tomonaga, December 7, 1991, in Japan
>
>9. M. H. Miles, M. Fleischmann, M. A. Imam, "Calorimetric Analysis of a 
>Heavy Water Electrolysis Experiment Using a Pd-B Alloy Cathode," Naval 
>Research Laboratory, March 26, 2001, NRL/MR/6320-01-8526
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>
>When the above letter has no effect, or when you are in the mood, the 
>famous Tinsley Response may be called for:
>
>
>THE TINSLEY ALL-PURPOSE COLD FUSION LETTER
>(patent pending)
>
>Dear . . . . . ,
>
>I found your letter/book/article/TV appearance most interesting.  Your 
>/comments on calorimetry/nuclear physics/chemistry/streams of personal 
>abuse/ are not, however, relevant.
>
>The following matters ARE relevant.
>
>1. EPRI have been funding CF research at SRI International for some years 
>now. They are now sponsoring the fourth international conference in 
>December. These facts may be assumed to be not unrelated.
>
>2. A Toyota led consortium have been funding Fleischmann and Pons in a 
>purpose-built lab for several years, and F&P's latest paper [ref] defeats 
>any possible chemical explanation. The only serious attempt to explain 
>their results that way [ref] served only to show that the perpetrator had 
>little understanding of the phrase 'orders of magnitude' and perhaps even 
>less of basic physics or chemistry. Toyota may be assumed capable of 
>understanding the difference between 0W and 150W, so the only feasible 
>explanation other than a novel non-chemical energy source is fraud. Fraud 
>perpetrated jointly by F&P, their numerous staff, and Toyota themselves. 
>Reality or fraud, take your pick.
>
>3. CF is a subject of intentionally misleading accounts in the science 
>press, a good example being the New Scientist article (about the papers 
>mentioned above) of May 1 1993. Misleading is a polite word, as you will 
>see if you compare the paper with the article. Intent to mislead may be 
>assumed because the magazine has not replied to letters of protest.
>
>4. The physics is not yet understood. CF is a real, novel energy source - 
>or thousands of researchers around the world are putting us on. It may be 
>judged soon that pathological science is alive and well - but not in the 
>cold fusion community. Quibbling over details of calorimetry or the present 
>fumbling attempts to unravel the physics is increasingly irrelevant to the 
>central issue.
>
>5. [5 is optional]  See that in my handkerchief? That's you, that is.
>
>Yours in warmest friendship,
>
>
>. . . . . . . . . .
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
Bart Simon, Asst. Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Concordia University, LB-687
1455 De Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
Montreal, Quebec, Canada  H3G 1M8

phone: 514-848-2164
email: simonb alcor.concordia.ca
-------------------------------------------------------

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Subject: Scientific American attacks cold fusion again
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See:

http://www.sciam.com/2001/1101issue/1101skeptic.html

"Baloney Detection - How to draw boundaries between science and 
pseudoscience, Part I," By Michael Shermer

QUOTE:

"Have the claims been verified by another source?

Typically pseudoscientists make statements that are unverified or verified 
only by a source within their own belief circle. We must ask, Who is 
checking the claims, and even who is checking the checkers? The biggest 
problem with the cold fusion debacle, for instance, was not that Stanley 
Pons and Martin Fleischman were wrong. It was that they announced their 
spectacular discovery at a press conference before other laboratories 
verified it. Worse, when cold fusion was not replicated, they continued to 
cling to their claim. Outside verification is crucial to good science."

It will do no good, but let me dust off my standard protest letter and zap 
it off to the editors. Mr. Shermer does not list an e-mail address, not 
that he would read a letter anyway.

Let me post the latest version of the two standard protest letters here. 
Perhaps someone will find an error and point it out to me. I will send one 
to the Sci. Am. after lunch. Given Shermer's snotty attitude, I am tempted 
to send Letter #2, but I shall refrain.

Perhaps we should all write something?



Title: Please do not knock cold fusion

Dear Mr. [journalist / bigwig politician / scientist],

In your [column/ speech / dreams] you described cold fusion as 
[non-existent / a mistake / heresy]. This is incorrect. Although the term 
"cold fusion" is not scientifically accurate, nuclear effects in 
solid-state metal lattices do exist, just as Pons and Fleischmann reported 
in 1989. These effects have been observed repeatedly in hundreds of 
laboratories, including Los Alamos [1] and several other leading national 
laboratories. Excess heat, tritium and other evidence has been measured at 
high signal-to-noise ratios, exceeding Sigma 90 on some occasions. [2] 
While it remains very difficult to reproduce in most laboratories, over 
last five years researchers at the Advanced Technology Center, Mitsubishi 
Heavy Industries have achieved 100 percent reproducibility. [3] Many 
experiments have been published in the peer reviewed journals in 
electrochemistry, and physics journals published by American Nuclear 
Society, the American Chemical Society, and in the Japanese Journal of 
Applied Physics. Extensive reviews of the field have been published by 
Edmund Storms. [4]

At this stage in its development, cold fusion produces at most 5 or 10 
watts of power in a delicate experimental apparatus, near room temperature. 
It is far from being a practical source of energy. However, the devices are 
extremely cheap, and the effect is robust once it appears. Experimental and 
theoretical breakthroughs may rapidly thrust it into the realm of practical 
technology. Researchers at Hokkaido University have succeeded in producing 
the effect at high temperatures, in a 3000 deg C plasma, which may allow 
good Carnot efficiency. [5] Tritium production was verified by 1991 at 
levels 52 times above the minimum amount their instruments could detect, 
with 100 percent reproducibility. [6] More recently, tritium has been 
measured at levels millions of times above the minimum threshold of 
detection by Pacific Northwest Laboratories. [7]

Most research in this area is conducted in Japan, and in Italy at the 
Italian National Physical Laboratory. Several senior and retired U.S. 
researchers who would very much like to do experimental work in this area, 
but nearly all funding in the U.S. was cut off in 1992 because of fierce 
opposition to this research from the mainstream physics community. [8] A 
report from the U.S. Navy covering some recent work by American scientists 
with 100 percent reproducible palladium boron alloys was described at 
American Nuclear Society conference, November 12-16, 2000, Marriott Wordman 
Park hotel, Washington, D.C., during the cold fusion subsection Low-energy 
Nuclear Reactions II, III. [9]

Sincerely,


Jed Rothwell


References

1. T. N. Claytor, D. D. Jackson and D. G. Tuggle, "Tritium Production from 
a Low Voltage Deuterium Discharge on Palladium and Other Metals," 
http://www.nde.lanl.gov/cf/tritweb.htm

2. SRI International and Electric Power Research Institute, "Development of 
Advanced Concepts for Nuclear Processes in Deuterated Metals," M.C.H. 
McKubre, et al., EPRI TR-104195, Research Project 3170-01, Final Report, 
August 1994, 128 pages, plus 342 pages on microfiche

3. Yasuhiro Iwamura, Takehiro Itoh, Nobuaki Gotoh, Mitsuru Sakano, Ichiro 
Toyoda and Hiroshi Sakata, "Detection of Anomalous Elements, X-Ray and 
Excess Heat Induced by Continuous Diffusion of Deuterium Through 
Multi-Layer Cathode (Pd/CaO/Pd)," proc. Seventh International Conf. Cold 
Fusion, Vancouver, April 19-24, 1998. See also follow up report Second 
Annual JCF Conference (JCF-2), October 21 - 22, 2000, Hokkaido National 
University

4. Reviews by E. Storms have appeared in Fusion Technology, J. Sci. 
Exploration and Infinite Energy. See http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html

5. T. Mizuno, T. Ohmori, T. Akimoto and A. Takahashi, "Production of Heat 
during Plasma Electrolysis in Liquid," Japanese Journal of Applied Physics, 
Vol. 39 (2000) 6055-6061, Part 1, No. 10, 15 October 2000

6. F. G. Will, K. Cedzynska, D. Linton, "Tritium Generation in Palladium 
Cathodes with High Deuterium Loading," Transactions of Fusion Technology, 
Vol. 26, Dec. 1994, p. 209

7. W. Brian Clarke, B. M. Oliver, M. C. H. McKubre, F. L. Tanzella, P. 
Tripodi, "Search for 3He and 4He in Arata-Style Palladium Cathodes II - 
Evidence for Tritium Production," Fusion Science and Technology, Volume 40, 
Number 2, September 2001

8. Julian Schwinger, "Cold Fusion -- Does It Have a Future?," address in 
memory of Shin'ichiro Tomonaga, December 7, 1991, in Japan

9. M. H. Miles, M. Fleischmann, M. A. Imam, "Calorimetric Analysis of a 
Heavy Water Electrolysis Experiment Using a Pd-B Alloy Cathode," Naval 
Research Laboratory, March 26, 2001, NRL/MR/6320-01-8526

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


When the above letter has no effect, or when you are in the mood, the 
famous Tinsley Response may be called for:


THE TINSLEY ALL-PURPOSE COLD FUSION LETTER
(patent pending)

Dear . . . . . ,

I found your letter/book/article/TV appearance most interesting.  Your 
/comments on calorimetry/nuclear physics/chemistry/streams of personal 
abuse/ are not, however, relevant.

The following matters ARE relevant.

1. EPRI have been funding CF research at SRI International for some years 
now. They are now sponsoring the fourth international conference in 
December. These facts may be assumed to be not unrelated.

2. A Toyota led consortium have been funding Fleischmann and Pons in a 
purpose-built lab for several years, and F&P's latest paper [ref] defeats 
any possible chemical explanation. The only serious attempt to explain 
their results that way [ref] served only to show that the perpetrator had 
little understanding of the phrase 'orders of magnitude' and perhaps even 
less of basic physics or chemistry. Toyota may be assumed capable of 
understanding the difference between 0W and 150W, so the only feasible 
explanation other than a novel non-chemical energy source is fraud. Fraud 
perpetrated jointly by F&P, their numerous staff, and Toyota themselves. 
Reality or fraud, take your pick.

3. CF is a subject of intentionally misleading accounts in the science 
press, a good example being the New Scientist article (about the papers 
mentioned above) of May 1 1993. Misleading is a polite word, as you will 
see if you compare the paper with the article. Intent to mislead may be 
assumed because the magazine has not replied to letters of protest.

4. The physics is not yet understood. CF is a real, novel energy source - 
or thousands of researchers around the world are putting us on. It may be 
judged soon that pathological science is alive and well - but not in the 
cold fusion community. Quibbling over details of calorimetry or the present 
fumbling attempts to unravel the physics is increasingly irrelevant to the 
central issue.

5. [5 is optional]  See that in my handkerchief? That's you, that is.

Yours in warmest friendship,


. . . . . . . . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 07:31:01 2001
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Subject: Re: Fission plants seen vulnerable - more Nation quotes
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thomas malloy wrote:

>You people are totally missing the point. Did you see the part of the 50 
>Minutes segment that showed the guys doing a dummy assault on the plant. I 
>think that the containment building would withstand a 747 flying into it. 
>but some sucide commando at the controls is an entirely different matter.

This is the sort of problem the government should be able to solve fairly 
easily. There are not many nuclear plants. The Army and the National Guard 
are good at protecting things with guns. Firepower cannot solve the 
political conundrum in the Middle East, but it can stop suicide commandos.

Frankly, I would be more worried about other targets. I just wrote this 
revised paragraph for an upcoming I.E. article about nuclear fission power 
plants:

"While the attack makes even the most lurid fears seem credible, on balance 
I do not think that a fission reactor is a promising target, since there 
are so many other vulnerable, unprotected factories, refineries and so on. 
One of the largest petroleum storage depots in the Southeast is a few miles 
from my house, in Doraville, Georgia. I drove by a month after the attack, 
and saw no sign of guards. There is no gate blocking access to the tanks. 
Anyone can drive in from the street and park a few feet away from a tank. A 
major fire occurred there in 1972, killing 2 and injuring 161 people."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 07:54:56 2001
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From: Keasy aol.com
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Thought for the day
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In a message dated 10/17/01 7:24:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
cjford1 yahoo.com writes:

> 
>  Truly the most favorable way to learn....  Especially this type of lesson 
:-)
> 
>  Charlie Ford

Uh, the cat may beg to differ on that -----
                                                                            
Ken

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 08:47:25 2001
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scientific American attacks cold fusion again
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I terminated my subscription to Scientific American years ago when it
became a Politically Correct Pop rag. It was very good in it's day. It
appears that its editorial staff is no longer scientist, but reporters. 

Shermer has flunked Junior High Science. In his first paragraph, he asks
"why should we belive you?" Shermer's answer is that you shouldn't. A
scientist would answer that you should do the experiment yourself. 

Shermer's topic 1, "How reliable is the source of the claim" is nothing
less than a complete admission of his ignorance of the scientific method.
It is nothing short than an admission that he submits to authority. This
fellow isn't a scientist, he's a "follower". Followers don't do SCIENCE,
they repeat what their authorities tell them to say. I use to have a
parrot that could do that. 

His topic 3 is a wandering collection of incoherant words. He starts off
with the subject of replication, then suddenly dodges it and changes the
subject to the fact that P&F had a press conference. His claim is that
they shouldn't have had a press conference until it was replicated by
someone else. That, of course, has nothing to do with the scientific
method! How are other scientist suppose to know to attempt to replicate an
experiment until they have been informed of the original work? Shermer
again is repeating what he is told without so much as a critical
examination of what he is told. His claim isn't logical.

Topic 4 is an offense against scientific thought. Here he asks "how does
the claim fit with what we know about how the world works". In short, he
is saying theory trumps experiment. Science has reverted to before the
dark ages, where Aristotal would proclaim how he "knew" the world works
and if an experiment conflicted with what he knew, then the experiment is
wrong, not what he knew. The first issue is the experiment. Do the
experiment and replicate the experiment and make sure that there are no
errors in the experiment. If the results of the experiment cannot be
explained by the theory you thought should explain it, GET A NEW THEORY. 

Topic 5 fails to acknowlege the problem of replication. In my college
chemistry classes, about half the students fail to perform the experiment
properly. Does that mean that the Chemical theories validated by the other
half of the class are invalid? Of course not. The half that failed didn't
perform the experiment properly, left something out, had dirty beakers or
so forth. Sometimes, not all the things that need to be done are known.
Someone's failure to replicate only proves that the way they did it
doesn't work. 

It amazes me that they still print crap like this after the publication of
McKubre's replication of the Arata experiment. That should have satisfied
their needs to submit to authority and their desire to be told what to
think. 

On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> See:
> 
> http://www.sciam.com/2001/1101issue/1101skeptic.html
> 
> "Baloney Detection - How to draw boundaries between science and 
> pseudoscience, Part I," By Michael Shermer



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 10:11:14 2001
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:10:36 -0500
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
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At 10:55 AM 10/17/01 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 10/17/01 7:24:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>cjford1 yahoo.com writes:
>
> >
> >  Truly the most favorable way to learn....  Especially this type of lesson
>:-)
> >
> >  Charlie Ford
>
>Uh, the cat may beg to differ on that -----
>
>Ken

Most people can learn through reading.
Some require instruction.
Still fewer require actual demonstration.

There there are those who have to pee on the electric fence themself\ves.

Bzzzot


Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 11:49:03 2001
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scientific American attacks cold fusion again
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Why do we care if people who are not only willfully ignorant of the
scientific method, but hold it in disdain, don't "believe" in cold fusion?
Most people believe CF is crank science. Most people also believe in
angels. 

It's too bad you can get a degree in a scientific field without having any
awareness of what the scientific method is. It has nothing to do with
reputable journals, peer review, authorities, nit picking details of
proper publication, or a scientific establishment. Science ONLY has to do
with experiment and theory. A valid experiment a is valid experiment even
if the neighbor kid who mows your lawn does it, or if it is done at
Los Alamos. It is the scientific illiterate who waits for peer review for
an "authority" to tell him what to think. The opinion of the scientific
illiterate doesn't matter in the least, for they cannot, by their very
nature, think for themselves. A scientist MUST be able to think for
himself. A scientist looks at the experiment, how it was done, and
decides, based on what he knows if the experiment shows something valid. 

Looking at cold fusion; you see neutrons, soft x-rays, transmutation of
isotopes, helium 4 in amounts that explain the excess heat, and fusion ash
elements tritium and helium 3, and low levels of neutrons. 

A scientist who is skeptical would duplicate the experiment himself.

A scientist would never say that based on some theory, that the experiment
must be in error. The skeptics have carried this farce to absurdity,
saying no neutrons means no fusion, or wrong branching ratios mean no
fusion. These skeptics put science back where it was before the dark ages,
literally. They are an embarrassment to the institutions that have granted
them degrees. 

The experiments speak far louder to the true scientist than the voices of
experts. 

You can point to facts and data all day long to a skeptic until you are
blue in the face. They play the game of "convince me", and then be
stubbornly stupid. The only thing that will change their tune is the AIP
coming down from the mountain with the religious revelation that Cold
Fusion is real. Then they will claim that they were right in waiting all
along, because they have idea what the scientific method really is. They
don't know that they have abandoned the principles of science for appeal
to authority. 

On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Bart Simon wrote:

[snip]


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 12:13:31 2001
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:51:42 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Scientific American attacks cold fusion again
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Bart Simon wrote:

>Other than those that appear from time to time in IE. I have been having 
>difficulty tracking down post 1992 pro-CF letters from established 
>scientists and engineers who are not CF researchers. Have any of you seen 
>any of these in any of the mainstream science media? Even a letter saying 
>lets give these folks a chance would be nice to see.

I do not think any mainstream journal or magazine would print such a letter 
after 1989. I would be shocked to find an example. By 1991, the editor of 
Sci. Am., Nature and the other major journals had denounced cold fusion in 
blistering rhetoric. They would never admit they might have been wrong, any 
more than they would publish a letter claiming creationism might be true, 
or black people might be inherently intellectually inferior to whites. (I 
agree with them these claims are untrue, but I would publish the racist 
claim, just to show the readers what lies under the rocks.)

Occasionally, Fusion Technology and other journals that allowed CF papers 
would print letters pro and con the research.

I will write to Sci. Am. for the record, but I do not think there is any 
chance they will respond or publish the letter. Dieter Britz saw the rough 
draft I posted here, and said: "Good luck with your Letter. If you
can bring yourself to phrase it soberly, they might even publish it." 
Frankly, I do not see how I could make it more sober. I asked him, "which 
sentences do you suggest I tone down or rephrase?" He did not respond. I 
think I'll zap the letter out now. It is worth the cost of the electrons.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 12:14:08 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Scientific American attacks cold fusion again
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>A scientist who is skeptical would duplicate the experiment himself.

However, as a practical matter, CF remains difficult to replicate. Most 
scientists are not capable of replicating it. They lack the skill, the 
equipment and the time. Furthermore, some who tried to replicate and failed 
fell into another pernicious trap. They decided, "since *I* cannot 
reproduce, I do not believe CF is real." In other words, they set 
themselves up as the Ultimate Arbiter and Final Authority on Everything. 
That is just another "appeal to authority," where you fancy yourself the 
authority. Scott Little occasionally makes this mistake, although he 
usually comes to his senses. Before you set out to do an experiment, you 
must remind yourself that you may fail, and your success or failure is no 
more a determining factor than someone else's. In a sense, you cannot even 
trust yourself.

There is a funny dynamic in research. On one hand, we say it is not 
democratic, and issues are not decided by vote. On the other hand, we 
cannot fully trust results which have not been replicated, even when we 
have seen them ourselves, except in rare and extreme cases like the 
explosion of the atom bomb, or Mizuno's heat after death event that 
evaporated 37 liters of water with no input power. We say you should not 
appeal to authority, yet we must do this for 99.9999% of all assertions, 
because no one has time to run every experiment in the textbooks. There are 
many contradictions an weaknesses in the scientific method. The system is 
not perfect. It is a set of customs and tribal rituals, like the banking 
laws. It works pretty well most of the time, but it is not magic.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 14:21:15 2001
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Subject: Re: Scientific American attacks cold fusion again
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On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> >A scientist who is skeptical would duplicate the experiment himself.
> 
> However, as a practical matter, CF remains difficult to replicate. Most 
> scientists are not capable of replicating it. They lack the skill, the 
> equipment and the time.

I've read papers where it appears difficult, and I've read papers where it
looks to be fairly easy. I think the gas loaded experiments are easier.

But this is a side issue. The important thing is that the experiment be
explained well enough; via whatever medium be it published journals,
websites, private letters, or word of mouth; that it can be replicated.

Why do you feel it important that EVERYONE accept it now? If you can't do
the experiment, then perhaps you should study something else. 

BTW, the biggest problem I see in doing the experiment is getting your
hands on the deuterium. 

> Furthermore, some who tried to replicate and failed 
> fell into another pernicious trap. They decided, "since *I* cannot 
> reproduce, I do not believe CF is real."

Null results prove that it doesn't work the way the experiment was
conducted and nothing more. It is very difficult to prove an effect
doesn't exist. A good scientist would precisely state what he knows. If
they get a negative result, then they can safely say that when they did
the experiment (and detail what they did...) that nothing happened.

Most cold fusion experiments don't even have a measure of what their
loading ration was of D to metal. How can they say they didn't replicate
the experiment if they don't even know this?!

> In other words, they set 
> themselves up as the Ultimate Arbiter and Final Authority on Everything. 
> That is just another "appeal to authority," where you fancy yourself the 
> authority.

We are all the ultimate authority for what we think, aren't we? I don't
see the problem. 

>  Scott Little occasionally makes this mistake, although he 
> usually comes to his senses. Before you set out to do an experiment, you 
> must remind yourself that you may fail, and your success or failure is no 
> more a determining factor than someone else's. In a sense, you cannot even 
> trust yourself.


 
> There is a funny dynamic in research. On one hand, we say it is not 
> democratic, and issues are not decided by vote. On the other hand, we 
> cannot fully trust results which have not been replicated, even when we 
> have seen them ourselves, except in rare and extreme cases like the 
> explosion of the atom bomb, or Mizuno's heat after death event that 
> evaporated 37 liters of water with no input power. We say you should not 
> appeal to authority, yet we must do this for 99.9999% of all assertions, 

I don't see your argument. Mizuno's heat after death isn't an appeal to
authority, it is a very curious fact. 

McKubre/Case/George's finding Helium-4 in amounts consistent with the heat
generated isn't an appeal to authority, it is experimental proof of cold
fusion. 

> because no one has time to run every experiment in the textbooks.

Right. You pick and choose the most promising within your skills to
replicate. If it isn't your field, (I'd love to mess with genetics, but
it's not my field) then you have to pass. 

I don't know much about electrolytic cells, but I think gas loading is
fairly basic physics with fewer variables to control. It is pretty clear
that other metals like Ti are far cheaper and more suitable for loading. 

Some people are getting fairly consistent results, so this can be worked
out. Don't mistake their trying to protect their research investment
dollars for the experiment being hard to replicate. To be a scientist, you
have to first feed yourself. 

> There are 
> many contradictions an weaknesses in the scientific method. The system is 
> not perfect. It is a set of customs and tribal rituals, like the banking 
> laws. It works pretty well most of the time, but it is not magic.

I don't think so. We tended to be blinded by appeals to authority and by
big complicated labs, but science itself is nothing more than a logical
and unbiased way of knowing the world. I see people following tribal
rituals, but that has nothing to do with science itself. 

Done confuse science with funding, faculty positions, politics, and
breaking people's rice bowls. Scientist may have to deal with all that,
but all that is not science. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 15:17:42 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Scientific American attacks cold fusion again
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>I've read papers where it appears difficult, and I've read papers where it
>looks to be fairly easy. I think the gas loaded experiments are easier.

Take my word for this: they are ALL difficult. Not as difficult as building 
a tokamak reactor, but never easy.


>But this is a side issue. The important thing is that the experiment be
>explained well enough; via whatever medium be it published journals,
>websites, private letters, or word of mouth; that it can be replicated.

Explaining is essential, but not sufficient. There must also be a concerted 
effort by others to learn what is being explained. This field needs much 
more teaching and learning.


>BTW, the biggest problem I see in doing the experiment is getting your
>hands on the deuterium.

This is not a problem. You can buy the stuff easily. You may need to purify 
it, which can be tricky.


>Most cold fusion experiments don't even have a measure of what their
>loading ration was of D to metal. How can they say they didn't replicate
>the experiment if they don't even know this?!

That's an important point.


>We are all the ultimate authority for what we think, aren't we? I don't
>see the problem.

Not me. I try not to believe myself. I make hesitant recommendations to 
myself, tugging my forelock and hoping for a final decision, but the mind 
seldom obliges. And yet, ultimately, I do go along with Francis Bacon:

"Our method and that of the skeptics agree in some respects at first 
setting out: but differ most widely and are completely opposed to each 
other in their conclusion. For they roundly assert that nothing can be 
known; we, that but a small part of nature can be known by the present 
method. Their next step, however, is to destroy the authority of the senses 
and understanding, whilst we invent and supply them with assistance. . . .

The school of Plato introduced skepticism, first, as it were, in joke and 
irony, from their dislike to Protagoras, Hippias, and others, who were 
ashamed of appearing not to doubt upon any subject. But the new academy 
dogmatized in their skepticism, and held it as their tenet. Although this 
method be more honest than arbitrary decision . . . yet, when the human 
mind has once despaired of discovering truth, everything begins to 
languish. Hence men turn aside into pleasant controversies and discussions, 
and into a sort of wandering over subjects, rather than sustain any 
rigorous investigation. But, as we observed at first, we are not to deny 
the authority of the human senses and understanding, although weak; but 
rather to furnish them with assistance."


> > have seen them ourselves, except in rare and extreme cases like the
> > explosion of the atom bomb, or Mizuno's heat after death event that
> > evaporated 37 liters of water with no input power. We say you should not
> > appeal to authority, yet we must do this for 99.9999% of all assertions,
>
>I don't see your argument. Mizuno's heat after death isn't an appeal to
>authority, it is a very curious fact.

You have confused the issue. I offer that as a rare example of a 
self-evident experiment, that by itself proves cold fusion must exist. It 
leaves no grounds for doubt or dispute (except the hypothesis that Mizuno 
is crazy, and the event never occurred). Nearly every other experiment must 
be replicated first, before we can be fully sure the results are real.


>We tended to be blinded by appeals to authority and by
>big complicated labs, but science itself is nothing more than a logical
>and unbiased way of knowing the world. I see people following tribal
>rituals, but that has nothing to do with science itself.

Science is a human institution like any other. It is "well ordered 
systematized empirical inquiry" (Conant) -- or a codified version of what 
people have done for hundreds of thousands of years. There is no 
hard-and-fast dividing line between the methods of science and those of 
agriculture, cooking or any other ancient technique. We, along with other 
primates, know the basic techniques by instinct, such as substitution and 
abstraction. (Try another light bulb to see if the circuit is working.) Our 
instinct is strengthened by training and practice, and channeled by 
ritualistic, academic traditions developed thousands of years ago, mainly 
in Greece, such as how to frame, debate or rebut a hypothesis.


>Don't confuse science with funding, faculty positions, politics, and
>breaking people's rice bowls. Scientist may have to deal with all that,
>but all that is not science.

I did not mean those rituals, although they are also inescapable, and 
rooted in our primate nature.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 16:07:13 2001
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From: "Joe Thomas" <azjt99 qwest.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <4.2.0.58.20011017120504.009676b0 pop.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Thought for the day
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:06:51 -0700
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Greetings, Mr. Ford.

You bring out an interesting perspective, and when coupled with the quote
from Samuel Clemens that kicked off this topic, it brings me to a focus that
I find enlightening to myself.

Both your witticism, and the original quote, make statements about the quest
for knowledge, and self-advancement.  Although they appear to be a bit
divergent, with regard to the overall purpose of the themes that are
expressed in this forum, aren't they generally connected to the fact that
knowledge comes to those that are willing to DO something, and suffer
whatever any consequences.

The naysayers and the scoffers who take delight in ridiculing those
adventurous enough to explore untested theories and sciences cower in the
face of seeking knowledge for fear that they may have to alter their
paradigms.  Everyone in this forum already knows the negativity that exists
by mainstream "scientists" so it does no good fro me to add my less informed
perspective.

I am content to study the advances and discussion, and quietly try what I
can to follow the work as best that I can.  I can not help but feel such
amazement that the activity that has been documented, and reported regarding
Cold Fusion, Calorimetry, et al has been rejected so out of hand by the
established scientific community.

I wonder how rapidly further result would develop, and what those
developments would lead to when Cold Fusion and all is finally accepted and
recognized as the new frontier in physics and chemistry.

"That's my story, You Honor, and I'm sticking with it!"

Joe Thomas
----- Original Message -----
>
> Most people can learn through reading.
> Some require instruction.
> Still fewer require actual demonstration.
>
> There there are those who have to pee on the electric fence themself\ves.
>
> Bzzzot
>
>
> Charlie Ford


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 17:41:02 2001
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scientific American attacks cold fusion again
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On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> There is a funny dynamic in research. On one hand, we say it is not 
> democratic, and issues are not decided by vote. On the other hand, we 
> cannot fully trust results which have not been replicated,


Sociology-of-science investigator H. M Collins points out that most
scientific controversies revolve around just such problems.  See below.



 http://www.cf.ac.uk/socsi/gravwave/index.html#paper1

 Collins, H. M., (1975) `The Seven Sexes: A Study in the Sociology of a
 Phenomenon, or the Replication of Experiments in Physics', Sociology, 9,
 2, 205-224. 

        Cartoon caption (two stick figures arguing.)

       MY EXPERIMENTS DON'T             ...BECAUSE YOU DID THE
       CONFIRM YOUR RESULTS.               EXPERIMENT WRONG!

 It is very difficult to resolve a scientific controversy through
 replication of experiments alone. This is because a scientist whose
 paper has been negatively replicated will argue that the second
 experiment was not properly carried out.

 This view can be supported almost indefinitely because experimentation
 is a skillful practice; there are no direct measures of the proper
 execution of a skill except getting the right result. But in a
 scientific controversy the notion of `right result' is itself the
 subject of dispute.  In my 1985/92 book and subsequently I refer to this
 problem as `The Experimenter's Regress.'





((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 18:21:46 2001
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:28:36 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Bart Simon <simonb alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Scientific American attacks cold fusion again
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1011017173133.19305F-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20011017145556.033c9168 pop.mindspring.com>
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For a discussion of Harry Collins idea of the experimenter's regress with
respect to the cold fusion case have a look at my article:

Simon, Bart. "Undead Science: Making Sense of Cold Fusion after the
(Arti)Fact," Social Studies of Science, Vol. 29, No. 1, pp. 61-85 (1999)

I will be happy to email an MS Word version of the paper to anyone who
might be interested.

cheers,
Bart


At 05:39 PM 10/17/01 -0700, you wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>> There is a funny dynamic in research. On one hand, we say it is not 
>> democratic, and issues are not decided by vote. On the other hand, we 
>> cannot fully trust results which have not been replicated,
>
>
>Sociology-of-science investigator H. M Collins points out that most
>scientific controversies revolve around just such problems.  See below.
>
>
>
> http://www.cf.ac.uk/socsi/gravwave/index.html#paper1
>
> Collins, H. M., (1975) `The Seven Sexes: A Study in the Sociology of a
> Phenomenon, or the Replication of Experiments in Physics', Sociology, 9,
> 2, 205-224. 
>
>        Cartoon caption (two stick figures arguing.)
>
>       MY EXPERIMENTS DON'T             ...BECAUSE YOU DID THE
>       CONFIRM YOUR RESULTS.               EXPERIMENT WRONG!
>
> It is very difficult to resolve a scientific controversy through
> replication of experiments alone. This is because a scientist whose
> paper has been negatively replicated will argue that the second
> experiment was not properly carried out.
>
> This view can be supported almost indefinitely because experimentation
> is a skillful practice; there are no direct measures of the proper
> execution of a skill except getting the right result. But in a
> scientific controversy the notion of `right result' is itself the
> subject of dispute.  In my 1985/92 book and subsequently I refer to this
> problem as `The Experimenter's Regress.'
>
>
>
>
>
>((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
>William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
Bart Simon, Asst. Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Concordia University, LB-687
1455 De Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
Montreal, Quebec, Canada  H3G 1M8

phone: 514-848-2164
email: simonb alcor.concordia.ca
-------------------------------------------------------

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 20:41:06 2001
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:49:47 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fujii et al. claim excess heat with light water
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This is interesting...   Like normal H2O?

This will definitely reduce the costs to preparation of metals.

At 04:03 PM 10/16/01 -0400, you wrote:
>In JCF Abstract JCF3-2, Fujii et al. (Yokohama National University) report 
>strong excess heat with light water, using Pd and Pd coated Ni rods. In 
>previous years, I



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 17 21:03:10 2001
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:10:56 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Thought for the day  >bring it back on topic
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Joe:

An interesting point.  I had actually not thought much past the humor aspect.

Still though we learn by reading.  We learn by observation.   Then we 
decide what to believe.  I don't think that any of us have not used the 
work of others to offer a boost of advancement.  I know I have.  Also there 
have been many many experiments.  Sometimes there is nothing to read or 
observe.  You just have to test it.

But then I have also venture off and do something stupid every now and then 
just to end up getting injured for my efforts.  taking us back to the 
original Twain sentiment.  There are some things you simply cannot learn 
any other way. :-)

Concerning Cold Fusion.  For now I learn by reading.  I choose what to 
believe. I place some faith in the work of others.  Maybe foolishly.  But I 
believe that in this case the book only folks are missing something.  (hay 
it happens)  Clemens is a favorite of mine.  His words off a grace, style 
and wisdom to the process.

Cheers

At 04:06 PM 10/17/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings, Mr. Ford.
>
>You bring out an interesting perspective, and when coupled with the quote
>from Samuel Clemens that kicked off this topic, it brings me to a focus that
>I find enlightening to myself.
>
>Both your witticism, and the original quote, make statements about the quest
>for knowledge, and self-advancement.  Although they appear to be a bit
>divergent, with regard to the overall purpose of the themes that are
>expressed in this forum, aren't they generally connected to the fact that
>knowledge comes to those that are willing to DO something, and suffer
>whatever any consequences.
>
>The naysayers and the scoffers who take delight in ridiculing those
>adventurous enough to explore untested theories and sciences cower in the
>face of seeking knowledge for fear that they may have to alter their
>paradigms.  Everyone in this forum already knows the negativity that exists
>by mainstream "scientists" so it does no good fro me to add my less informed
>perspective.
>
>I am content to study the advances and discussion, and quietly try what I
>can to follow the work as best that I can.  I can not help but feel such
>amazement that the activity that has been documented, and reported regarding
>Cold Fusion, Calorimetry, et al has been rejected so out of hand by the
>established scientific community.
>
>I wonder how rapidly further result would develop, and what those
>developments would lead to when Cold Fusion and all is finally accepted and
>recognized as the new frontier in physics and chemistry.
>
>"That's my story, You Honor, and I'm sticking with it!"
>
>Joe Thomas
>----- Original Message -----
> >
> > Most people can learn through reading.
> > Some require instruction.
> > Still fewer require actual demonstration.
> >
> > There there are those who have to pee on the electric fence themself\ves.
> >
> > Bzzzot
> >
> >
> > Charlie Ford



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 18 00:47:03 2001
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20011015142330.03680d98 pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Fission plants seen vulnerable - more Nation quotes
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:12:09 +0100
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Currently, the British Friends of the Earth view on most nuclear waste is
firstly to stop making any more of it, secondly  to store it above ground
where the condition of containers can be easily monitored until the
radioactivity declines. This last was an alternative to storing it in deep
repositories or ocean trenches in "invulnerable" containers. After September
11th, this may need looking at again. The environmental movement has been
warning for many years about the possibility of nuclear terrorism, and
usually some idiot cocksure "scientist" wheels himself out into the media to
pooh-pooh the idea basing objections on the idea that fissionable material
 available from the nuclear industry is not likely to be "weapons grade" and
therefore the terrorist could not create a nuclear bomb.They always forget
that spreading long lived isotopes does not have to be done with a nuclear
explosion...

Nick Palmer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 18 06:29:48 2001
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:27:54 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
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Nick Palmer wrote:

<snip>

> They always forget
> that spreading long lived isotopes does not have to be done with a nuclear
> explosion...

I found it fascinating that, while studying our nuclear arsenal
on the fas.org web site, not only do our modern nuclear warheads
have DAY (dial-a-yield); but, they also have selectable "clean"
or "dirty" modes of detonation.  

Terry

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Subject: Re: Scientific American attacks cold fusion again
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Dear Bart,
I'm most interested in reading your article.

Ed

Bart Simon wrote:

> For a discussion of Harry Collins idea of the experimenter's regress with
> respect to the cold fusion case have a look at my article:
>
> Simon, Bart. "Undead Science: Making Sense of Cold Fusion after the
> (Arti)Fact," Social Studies of Science, Vol. 29, No. 1, pp. 61-85 (1999)
>
> I will be happy to email an MS Word version of the paper to anyone who
> might be interested.
>
> cheers,
> Bart
>
> At 05:39 PM 10/17/01 -0700, you wrote:
> >On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >
> >> There is a funny dynamic in research. On one hand, we say it is not
> >> democratic, and issues are not decided by vote. On the other hand, we
> >> cannot fully trust results which have not been replicated,
> >
> >
> >Sociology-of-science investigator H. M Collins points out that most
> >scientific controversies revolve around just such problems.  See below.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.cf.ac.uk/socsi/gravwave/index.html#paper1
> >
> > Collins, H. M., (1975) `The Seven Sexes: A Study in the Sociology of a
> > Phenomenon, or the Replication of Experiments in Physics', Sociology, 9,
> > 2, 205-224.
> >
> >        Cartoon caption (two stick figures arguing.)
> >
> >       MY EXPERIMENTS DON'T             ...BECAUSE YOU DID THE
> >       CONFIRM YOUR RESULTS.               EXPERIMENT WRONG!
> >
> > It is very difficult to resolve a scientific controversy through
> > replication of experiments alone. This is because a scientist whose
> > paper has been negatively replicated will argue that the second
> > experiment was not properly carried out.
> >
> > This view can be supported almost indefinitely because experimentation
> > is a skillful practice; there are no direct measures of the proper
> > execution of a skill except getting the right result. But in a
> > scientific controversy the notion of `right result' is itself the
> > subject of dispute.  In my 1985/92 book and subsequently I refer to this
> > problem as `The Experimenter's Regress.'
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> >William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> >billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> >Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Bart Simon, Asst. Professor
> Department of Sociology and Anthropology
> Concordia University, LB-687
> 1455 De Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
> Montreal, Quebec, Canada  H3G 1M8
>
> phone: 514-848-2164
> email: simonb alcor.concordia.ca
> -------------------------------------------------------

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This is one the best essays about our present predicament I have read. Let 
me go further: it is one of the best essays on the moral contradictions of 
war that I have seen:

http://slate.msn.com/framegame/entries/01-10-17_117527.asp

The Power of Negative Thinking, By William Saletan

My own view is that was is dreadful, dread, crude and cruel thing, which 
should be avoided whenever possible, but not "at any cost." Years ago, Bin 
Laden said he has a God-given obligation to acquire nuclear weapons. When 
Hitler told the world he intended to exterminate the Jews and enslave 
Eastern Europe, the world did not believe it, but he meant it. Bin Laden 
has shown he is ruthless. I think he means what he says, and I think he 
would slaughter millions of people, given the opportunity.

I wish there were better technologies to capture, disable or control our 
enemies without hurting them. I expect in the distant future such 
technologies will be developed, and I hope the good guys do it first.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 18 09:51:33 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Magnetic Carbon.
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:59:48 -0400
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Hi.

I remember discussion concerning the carbon-iron transmutation
experiments centered around the magnetic properties of
the resulting "iron" as proof. Someone must have suggested
the possibility of magnetic carbon, but if not here's an
interesting link.

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991443

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 18 10:29:35 2001
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Without a little imagination even the simplist idea
would never surface into the mind.  

As Albert Einstein once said, "The most beautiful
thing we can experience is the mysterious; It is the
source of all true art and science" and "Imagination
is more important than knowledge"  

Imagination will keep us going even after the
knowlegde escapes us. 
  

--- Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com> wrote:
> Joe:
> 
> An interesting point.  I had actually not thought
> much past the humor aspect.
> 
> Still though we learn by reading.  We learn by
> observation.   Then we 
> decide what to believe.  I don't think that any of
> us have not used the 
> work of others to offer a boost of advancement.  I
> know I have.  Also there 
> have been many many experiments.  Sometimes there is
> nothing to read or 
> observe.  You just have to test it.
> 
> But then I have also venture off and do something
> stupid every now and then 
> just to end up getting injured for my efforts. 
> taking us back to the 
> original Twain sentiment.  There are some things you
> simply cannot learn 
> any other way. :-)
> 
> Concerning Cold Fusion.  For now I learn by reading.
>  I choose what to 
> believe. I place some faith in the work of others. 
> Maybe foolishly.  But I 
> believe that in this case the book only folks are
> missing something.  (hay 
> it happens)  Clemens is a favorite of mine.  His
> words off a grace, style 
> and wisdom to the process.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> At 04:06 PM 10/17/01 -0700, you wrote:
> >Greetings, Mr. Ford.
> >
> >You bring out an interesting perspective, and when
> coupled with the quote
> >from Samuel Clemens that kicked off this topic, it
> brings me to a focus that
> >I find enlightening to myself.
> >
> >Both your witticism, and the original quote, make
> statements about the quest
> >for knowledge, and self-advancement.  Although they
> appear to be a bit
> >divergent, with regard to the overall purpose of
> the themes that are
> >expressed in this forum, aren't they generally
> connected to the fact that
> >knowledge comes to those that are willing to DO
> something, and suffer
> >whatever any consequences.
> >
> >The naysayers and the scoffers who take delight in
> ridiculing those
> >adventurous enough to explore untested theories and
> sciences cower in the
> >face of seeking knowledge for fear that they may
> have to alter their
> >paradigms.  Everyone in this forum already knows
> the negativity that exists
> >by mainstream "scientists" so it does no good fro
> me to add my less informed
> >perspective.
> >
> >I am content to study the advances and discussion,
> and quietly try what I
> >can to follow the work as best that I can.  I can
> not help but feel such
> >amazement that the activity that has been
> documented, and reported regarding
> >Cold Fusion, Calorimetry, et al has been rejected
> so out of hand by the
> >established scientific community.
> >
> >I wonder how rapidly further result would develop,
> and what those
> >developments would lead to when Cold Fusion and all
> is finally accepted and
> >recognized as the new frontier in physics and
> chemistry.
> >
> >"That's my story, You Honor, and I'm sticking with
> it!"
> >
> >Joe Thomas
> >----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > Most people can learn through reading.
> > > Some require instruction.
> > > Still fewer require actual demonstration.
> > >
> > > There there are those who have to pee on the
> electric fence themself\ves.
> > >
> > > Bzzzot
> > >
> > >
> > > Charlie Ford
> 
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 18 19:23:17 2001
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Wow. You read my mind. I was thinking the same thing when I saw that
article. But didn't someone do a spectral analysis on the carbon powders
and determine other materials were present?

If not, then perhaps a simple arcing in carbon powder actually does
create buckball materials. That would be a very cheap and dirty way to
make buckyball organic magnets.

Keith Nagel wrote:
> 
> Hi.
> 
> I remember discussion concerning the carbon-iron transmutation
> experiments centered around the magnetic properties of
> the resulting "iron" as proof. Someone must have suggested
> the possibility of magnetic carbon, but if not here's an
> interesting link.
> 
> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991443
> 
> K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 19 01:31:25 2001
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:26:36 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Excellent essay on war
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Jed -

>I wish there were better technologies to capture, disable or control 
>our enemies without hurting them. I expect in the distant future 
>such technologies will be developed, and I hope the good guys do it 
>first.

There are good guys? Are we them? I hope so. Since 9-11 I've had some 
different thoughts on this. I used to worry slightly that within the 
CF reaction(s) perhaps there lurked the possibility of bomblike 
energy release, and that the Mil or someone secretly knows this, thus 
the motive for some of the silly suppression in the face of all the 
positive experimental evidence for these reacctions. No 'need' for 
that problem any more. Gene Mallove says in the current issue of IE: 
"These emerging discoveries now underway will lead, I believe, on a 
straight path to the development of free energy devices and 
propulsion systems of unlimited capacity."

Unlimited capacity? You mean in the near future, someone could build 
an incredibly powerful propulsion system, bolt it to the keel of a 
leaky old longliner, fill the boat's holds and tanks up with diesel, 
and fly it into the rebuilt-WTC at around Mach 1? If we're the good 
guys, just whose side are we on? Seems there's never a good Tesla 
Shield around when you need one.

And even with Shields Up - did you see the movie "Final Fantasy" 
(made here in Hawaii entirely by computer animation)? Earth is dead 
except for one shielded city. Eventually, of course, "trouble" 
manages to get past even that last defense.

Until we fix ourselves from within *somehow*, I doubt civilization 
will survive the arrival of Gene's fabulous machines for more than a 
few months. Eschaton anyone?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 19 04:57:44 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: You saw it here first?
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I haven't had time to follow vortex lately, but thought you might be
interested in some vortex history.  The follwing post was made to vortex
back in November, 1996.  I eventually also posted it to the White House web
site back then, which had a solicitation for suggestions.  I repost it now
because it now looks like someone may have acually used the idea in some
form, as evidenced by the food packet drops in Afganistan.  If so, well ...
you old vorts saw it here first!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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From: hheffner anc.ak.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: A method of air dropping food
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Sorry for this off topic post but I have to start somewhere:

Please feel free to copy any part of this document.  Any ideas herein that
are mine I place in the public domain.

This is a simple idea for air dropping food to starving groups of people in
places where no typical landing or drop zone is available or mobility is
restricted because the area is under fire.  The method might also be useful
for supplying downed pilots without giving away a specific position or
forcing the drop plane to come under close range fire.  The method is also
useful for obtaining a fairly uniform distribution of the food and thus
avoiding complete domination of the supply by the strong at the expense of
the weak.

The idea is to adapt some existing military Meals Ready to Eat (MRE)
packaging techiniques and recipies to use in small packages similar in size
to ketchup, mayonaise, or hot sauce squeeeze packets.  Such squeeze packets
are typically 1.5 inches by 3 inches and about .25 inches thick.

This idea has the following advantages:

1. The ratio of packing materials to food is reasonable, for both weight
and cost.

2. No additional weight or expense is required for chutes, ruggedized
pallets, etc., for dropping the small packets.  The packets can be dropped
as-is due to their terminal velocity being slow due to their small size.
They can survive at a high rate in most conditions.

3. The likelyhood of injury to people in the drop area is small provided
they don't look up and get hit in the eye by a falling packet.  Even then
the risk of permanent injury is small, unlike the risk of being hit by a
one ton pallet, or being trampled in a mad rush to a food container.

4. The food can be distributed over a wide area, like a city, or along a
travel route.  The wide area uniform distribution and subsequent wide area
scavenging gives a more fair opportunity for everyone in the drop zone to
obtain food.  The uniform distribution also reduces the chances that the
entire drop will be lost due to falling into an inaccesable or under fire
area or by being damaged in the drop.

5. The packets will not tend to be caught in trees, but rather fall through
to the ground.

6. A diverse range and mix of foods, vitamins, medicines, bandages,
re-hydration fluids and electrolytes, baby food, etc. can be distributed
simultaneously in a single drop.

7. The drop can occur from high altitudes or low altitudes.

8. Such drops could be made by pilotless planes using GPS locating, or by
remotely piloted aircraft.

9. Errors due to wind drift will be less than that for parachuted material
due to the faster rate of fall.

10. The food would not require cooking or decontamination equipment.

11. The food would be useful for storage and for travel and would be in a
convenient size for barter and rationing.

12. Packets can be made to float so they are not lost in swamps, streams, etc.

13. Packet visibility can be increased through use of flourescent paint,
aluminization, etc.  It is not the packets lost to the enemy that is
important, but the packets reaching the needy.

14. Packets can be attached in strings to increase the likelyhood of
finding a good mix.

The suggested technology might be of use in supplying troops under fire.
Having this technology available could have helped much in supplying
civilians in the war torn areas of Ethiopia, where relief trucks were
regularly hijacked or destroyed.  It could have similarly saved lives in
Chad, Somalia, the Bulkans, Rawanda, and could even at this moment be used
in Zaier.

I don't know who might actually use such an idea.  If you do, please send
this document to them or let me know at hheffner anc.ak.net.  Thanks for
your consideration.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 19 08:17:50 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:18:45 -0700
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The New Great Game: Oil Politics in Central Asia

Ted Rall, AlterNet
October 11, 2001

Nursultan Nazarbayev has a terrible problem. He's the president and
former Communist Party boss of Kazakhstan, the second-largest
republic of the former Soviet Union. A few years ago, the giant
country struck oil in the eastern portion of the Caspian Sea.
Geologists estimate that sitting beneath the wind-blown steppes of
Kazakhstan are 50 billion barrels of oil -- by far the biggest
untapped reserves in the world. (Saudi Arabia, currently the world's
largest oil producer, is believed to have about 30 billion barrels
remaining.)

Kazakhstan's Soviet-subsidized economy collapsed immediately after
independence in 1991. When I visited the then-capital, Almaty, in
1997, I was struck by the utter absence of elderly people. One after
another, people confided that their parents had died of malnutrition
during the brutal winters of 1993 and 1994. Middle-class residents of
a superpower had been reduced to abject poverty virtually overnight;
thirtysomething women who appeared sixtysomething hocked their
wedding silver in underpasses next to reps for the Kazakh state art
museum trying to move enough socialist realist paintings for a dollar
each to keep the lights on. The average Kazakh earned $20 a month;
those unwilling or unable to steal died of gangrene adjacent to long-
winded tales of woe written on cardboard.

Autocrats tend to die badly during periods of downward mobility.
Nazarbayev, therefore, has spent most of the last decade trying to
get his land-locked oil out to sea. Once the oil starts flowing, it
won't take long before Kazakhstan replaces Kuwait as the land of
Benzes and ugly gold jewelry. But the longer the pipeline, the more
expensive and vulnerable to sabotage it is. The shortest route runs
through Iran, but Kazakhstan is too closely aligned with the U.S. to
offend it by cutting a deal with Teheran. Russia has helpfully
offered to build a line connecting Kazakh oil rigs to the Black Sea,
but neighboring Turkmenistan has experienced trouble with the
Russians: they tend to divert the oil for their own uses without
paying for it. There's even a plan to run crude out through China,
but the proposed 5,300-mile line would be far too long to prove
profitable.

The logical alternative, then, is Unocal's plan, which is to extend
Turkmenistan's existing system west to the Kazakh field on the
Caspian and southeast to the Pakistani port of Karachi on the Arabian
Sea. That project runs through Afghanistan.

As Central Asian expert Ahmed Rashid describes in his 2000
book "Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central
Asia," the U.S. and Pakistan decided to install a stable regime in
Afghanistan around 1994 -- a regime that would end the country's
civil war and thus ensure the safety of the Unocal pipeline project.
Impressed by the ruthlessness and willingness of the then-emerging
Taliban to cut a pipeline deal, the U.S. State Department and
Pakistan's ISI intelligence service agreed to funnel arms and funding
to the Taliban in their war against the ethnically Tajik Northern
Alliance. It has been reported that as recently as 1999, U.S.
taxpayers paid the entire annual salary of every single Taliban
government official, all in the hopes of returning to the days of
dollar-a-gallon gas. Pakistan, naturally, would pick up revenues from
a Karachi oil port facility. Harkening to 19th century power politics
between Russia and British India, Rashid dubbed the struggle for
control of post-Soviet Central Asia "the new Great Game."

Predictably, the Taliban Frankenstein got out of control. The
regime's unholy alliance with Osama bin Laden's terror network, their
penchant for invading their neighbors and their production of 50
percent of the world's opium made them unlikely partners for the
desired oil deal. Then-President Bill Clinton's 1998 cruise missile
attack on Afghanistan briefly brought the Taliban back into line;
they even eradicated opium poppy cultivation in less than a year, but
they nonetheless continued supporting countless militant Islamic
groups. When an Egyptian group whose members had trained in
Afghanistan hijacked four airplanes and used them to kill more than
6,000 Americans on September 11, Washington's patience with its
former client finally expired.

Finally the Bushies had the perfect excuse to do what the U.S. had
wanted all along: invade and/or install an old-school puppet regime
in Kabul. Realpolitik no more cares about the 6,000 dead than it
concerns itself with oppressed women in Afghanistan; this ersatz war
by a phony president is solely about getting the Unocal deal done
without interference from annoying local middlemen.

Central Asian politics, however, is a house of cards: every time you
remove one element, the whole thing comes crashing down. Muslim
extremists in both Pakistan and Afghanistan, for instance, will
support additional terror attacks on the U.S. to avenge the
elimination of the Taliban. A U.S.-installed Northern Alliance can't
hold Kabul without an army of occupation because Afghan legitimacy
hinges on capturing the capital on your own. And even if we do this
the right way by funding and training the Northern Alliance so that
they can seize power themselves, Pakistan's ethnic Pashtun government
will never tolerate the replacement of their Pashtun brothers in the
Taliban by Northern Alliance Tajiks. Without Pakistani cooperation,
there's no getting the oil out and there's no chance for stability in
Afghanistan.

As Bush would say, make no mistake: this is about oil. It's always
about oil. And to twist a late '90s cliché, it's only boring because
it's true.

Ted Rall, a syndicated cartoonist for Universal Press Syndicate, has
traveled extensively throughout Central Asia. Most recently, in 2000,
he went to Turkmenistan as a guest of the U.S. State Department


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 19 10:14:23 2001
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Jed Rothwell mentions in sci.physics.fusion that "the cold fusion effect
requires a dynamic flux of deuterium through the metal, in or out. It
(cold fusion effect?) does not occur when the D sits in the metal. See
McKubre's papers and equations." 

I noticed that the McKubre/George experiment shows continuous and steady
increasing He-4 concentrations when the CF experiment is done over a
period of days. It is possible that if measured over short periods, that
there is an loading and unloading cycle going on that would create this
dynamic effect, and that the cell would have to be operated near it's
equilibrium loading temperature and pressure at the necessary D/metal
ratio. 

Is this what is being claimed? 

How do they know this?
   
Where might I find McKubre's equations & papers on this?

Could one not put an AC current through the metal hydride to cause
deuterium movement to enhance the dynamic effect at pressure and
temperature that is in equilibrium with the loaded metal hydride?



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 19 11:59:12 2001
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Subject:  Monotheorism
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:59:22 -0500
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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All,

I invented a new word today (at 1:15 p.m.), and wanted to lay claim to 
its origin -- assuming no one else  can prove that he/she has used this 
before.  

MONOTHEORISM --  the doctrine or belief that there in is only ONE theory 
that can explain something in physics especially, or in any other science 
or philosophy.

There is bit of humor in this since the new word sounds a bit  like 
monotheism, which in some flavors (rabid fundamentalism) can be quite 
monotheoristic.  Minus the key letters "or" -- how ironic!‹ monotheorism 
IS monotheism!  Feel free to spread this new word.

If anyone knows the whereabouts of Richard Lederer, please pass this 
along to him.


Eugene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 19 12:39:18 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:36:54 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Carbon.
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Have you read the article which announced this discovery? There are 
simple chemical tests for Fe, particularly when the only thing you 
have to separate is C.

On further reflection, I through C has a weight of 12, now 12 times 5 
is 60. Fe60 decays with B capture with .14 MeV. What is that? a Gamma 
particle? B capture would reduce the number of protons, which would 
change the element to Mn. Would that be Mn59? There is no such 
isotope. My understanding was that Fe57 resulted. If this is the 
case, then an isotopic spectrum would be very interesting because 
Fe57, and Fe58 are both rare, I call them 2%ers for less than 2% of 
the normal isotopic spectrum, well Fe57 is just over 2%, but that is 
still rare.

Since I'm sure that Ed Storms will weigh in on this thread, I want to 
mention a French patent, Meyer-Mace which involved the production of 
energy by the use of Fe57. I attempted to find out more about it, but 
the patent search engine that I tried didn't have any information on 
it. Since I don't know of any other search engine, other then 
Delphion, and since the document would have to be digitalized inorder 
to run it though Babelfish, I haven't done anymore with it.

>Wow. You read my mind. I was thinking the same thing when I saw that
>article. But didn't someone do a spectral analysis on the carbon powders
>and determine other materials were present?
>
>If not, then perhaps a simple arcing in carbon powder actually does
>create buckball materials. That would be a very cheap and dirty way to
>make buckyball organic magnets.
>
>Keith Nagel wrote:
>>
>>  Hi.
>>
>>  I remember discussion concerning the carbon-iron transmutation
>>  experiments centered around the magnetic properties of
>>  the resulting "iron" as proof. Someone must have suggested
>>  the possibility of magnetic carbon, but if not here's an
>>  interesting link.
>>
>>  http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991443
>>
>>  K.


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 19 12:46:17 2001
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From: Keasy aol.com
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Subject: Re: Magnetic Carbon.
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In a message dated 10/18/01 10:20:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, knagel gis.net 
writes:

> I remember discussion concerning the carbon-iron transmutation
>  experiments centered around the magnetic properties of
>  the resulting "iron" as proof. Someone must have suggested
>  the possibility of magnetic carbon, but if not here's an
>  interesting link.
>  
>  http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991443

Hello all,
    Does anyone know how "magnetic" this material is?  Are we talking about a 
relative mu of 1.01?  2?  100?  That makes a big difference in how important 
this material might be.
                                              Thanks,          Ken

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 19 13:01:11 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Excellent essay on war
In-Reply-To: <v04210101b7f58df9de81 [192.168.123.2]>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>There are good guys? Are we them?

Relatively speaking, for now, I hope so.


>Until we fix ourselves from within *somehow*, I doubt civilization will 
>survive the arrival of Gene's fabulous machines for more than a few 
>months. Eschaton anyone?

I do not think we can change basic human nature, but that nature is 
remarkably pliant and adaptable, for good or evil. I worry about what 
people might do with infinite supplies of zero-cost energy. But people have 
controlled awesome destructive powers for thousands of years. They wiped 
out other species, burned vast forests, and turned large parts of 
continents into desert. We have lived with nuclear weapons for 55 years 
without blowing ourselves up. There is hope.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 19 13:07:54 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Magnetic Carbon.
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:12:38 -0400
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It's important because it's carbon...

But yes, it'd be interesting if they measured
the properties of the material. I would think
one would first have to get enough of the stuff
to be measureable. Pesky engineering problems (smile).

By the way, what do you suppose is causing the electron
spins to unbalance?

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Keasy aol.com [mailto:Keasy@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 3:43 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnetic Carbon.


In a message dated 10/18/01 10:20:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
knagel gis.net
writes:

> I remember discussion concerning the carbon-iron transmutation
>  experiments centered around the magnetic properties of
>  the resulting "iron" as proof. Someone must have suggested
>  the possibility of magnetic carbon, but if not here's an
>  interesting link.
>
>  http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991443

Hello all,
    Does anyone know how "magnetic" this material is?  Are we talking about
a
relative mu of 1.01?  2?  100?  That makes a big difference in how important
this material might be.
                                              Thanks,          Ken


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 19 13:50:34 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:42:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
cc: knagel gis.net
Subject: Re: Magnetic Carbon.
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Bucky Balls and nanotubes are usually made by ablating a Carbon rod with a
laser, and collecting the "soot" on a cooled electrode. An arc might due
similiar vaporizing of the Carbon, and condensimg the vapor on adjacent
grains. Carbon, with its valence of 4, can combine in a wide variety of
forms, with various sp3, sp2 and sp bonding. sp3 bonding results in
diamonds, sp2 in graphite, and related structures such as nanotubes and
bucky balls.

Hank



On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, David Rosignoli wrote:

> Wow. You read my mind. I was thinking the same thing when I saw that
> article. But didn't someone do a spectral analysis on the carbon powders
> and determine other materials were present?
> 
> If not, then perhaps a simple arcing in carbon powder actually does
> create buckball materials. That would be a very cheap and dirty way to
> make buckyball organic magnets.
> 
> Keith Nagel wrote:
> > 
> > Hi.
> > 
> > I remember discussion concerning the carbon-iron transmutation
> > experiments centered around the magnetic properties of
> > the resulting "iron" as proof. Someone must have suggested
> > the possibility of magnetic carbon, but if not here's an
> > interesting link.
> > 
> > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991443
> > 
> > K.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 19 14:10:04 2001
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Comments on the essay "Undead Science: Making Sense of Cold Fusion
After the (Arti)fact," by Bart Simon


Bart Simon writes:

"Is cold fusion dead or alive, is it dying or living? Standard SSK 
conceptions would suggest that the controversy is either effectively over 
or it is not, and there would be different social, material and 
epistemological consequences in each case. To put it another way; we either 
have a case of science-still-in-the-making, or a case of ready-made science 
(or ready-made "not-science" as the case may be). How shall we decide?"

We shall decide with the tools of physics, not social science. Bart Simon 
is a social scientist whose specialty happens to be the study of how 
science itself works. This is worthwhile subject, and he has many 
interesting and valuable observations to make about scientists, society, 
knowledge and so on, but this has nothing to do with whether cold fusion is 
real or not. Suppose Simon was an anthropologist who specialized in 
Japanese agriculture. In the course of his research, he would learn a fair 
amount about rice, oranges, how to use fertilizer and so on, but mostly he 
would concentrate on how farmers decide what to plant, how to divide up 
labor, where they find a wife, and so on. Suppose a government commission 
was set up to improve the quality of life in remote agricultural areas. He 
would be a good man to interview. However, if you wanted to learn how to 
graft a new set of orange trees in a mature grove or prevent moth 
infestations, Simon would have nothing to contribute. That would call for 
an expert farmer or a professor of agriculture and biology. A person 
studying how scientists work is NOT qualified to judge the actual content 
of their work.

The questions "Is cold fusion dead or alive . . . How shall we decide?" 
have a dramatic drumroll quality to them. These are Big Questions, 
Important Issues. But Simon did not investigate them, and he does not 
introduce facts or a hypothesis that might help answer them. He does not 
talk about them, and he should not, since he is not an electrochemist. If 
cold fusion is real, it is "alive" now, it always has been, and it always 
will be, eons after man is extinct. Simon is asking smaller questions: "How 
do people generally go about trying to decide these things nowadays?" or 
"How do people who are not engaged in some area of research try to guess 
the results?" or "How do fashion and fads arise in science?" These are 
humble but worthy subjects.

In a few places Simon tries to grapple with the actual content of cold 
fusion research. Unfortunately, he is not competent to do this. He makes 
gross errors and mixes up matters of fact. He should stick to sociology and 
not try to discuss physics. (Most electrochemists would do no better trying 
to write sociology.) For example, he writes:

"Morrison refined Langmuir's criteria for identifying pathological science 
and found that the case of cold fusion was a clear example. Indeed, the 
hypothesis of pathological science became a credible explanation for why 
some researchers still claimed to be getting positive results."

None of Langmuir's technical criteria fit cold fusion, even in Morrison's 
twisted analysis. Morrison ignored the facts and invented data to fit the 
criteria. To put it bluntly, he lied. Unfortunately, Simon has not read or 
understood the original sources, and he does not realize that Morrison was 
lying. Take Langmuir's criteria #1: "The maximum effect that is observed is 
produced by a causative agent of barely detectable intensity . . ." 
Although some cold fusion experiments have produced barely detectable 
events, others have produced hundreds of watts with no input, or millions 
of times more tritium than the minimum level the instruments can detect. 
This is not debatable, and it is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of 
fact. Some people refuse to believe these reports, but that is not the same 
as debating them or expressing an opinion about them. No one suggests that 
the researchers at PNL measured an artifact instead of 10E15 atoms of 
tritium. The skeptics deny the event took place. They say PNL never 
measured anything; the paper was a hoax.

Yes, science is a human institution, and scientists are subject to the 
limitations, delusions and moral failures that Simon describes. (Francis 
Bacon described them better than Simon, Thomas Kuhn or any other modern 
author has, in my opinion.) Social science and philosophy of science can 
teach us how to avoid making mistakes in physics, what to beware of, and 
what sort of traps, delusions and "idols of the mind" (Bacon) can disrupt 
the process. This is valuable knowledge. Understanding the role of human 
nature and culture in science is important. But it can never help us solve 
any specific technical problem in physics. The anthropologist who observes 
farmers does not, himself, become a farmer, and he cannot teach them how to 
farm. When Simon attempts to do that, he oversteps the bounds of his 
expertise and authority. It is as if an electrochemist who knows nothing 
about the sociology of science were to pontificate or contradict Simon and 
his colleagues at a sociology conference. The electrochemist might make 
valuable amateur field observations, just as a farmer will teach the 
anthropologist what he needs to know. A person who does not study 
calorimetry is not qualified to judge McKubre's claims. A paper which does 
not include specific, quantitative, technical details cannot address the 
question Simon poses. Simon can describe the controversy and politics from 
the sociological point of view, but this tells us nothing about which side 
is actually correct. He might offer generalizations about the winning side 
in other debates. But sometimes the winning side turns out to be the 
conservative mainstream, and sometimes it is the scruffy, half-crazy 
interlopers. You can never predict by appearances, precedent, majority 
opinion, social position, or any other sociological yardstick. Thus, when 
Simon writes:

"I am concerned with the social and epistemological relations between and 
amongst differently situated groups of actors. These are the relations of 
power which produce, and are produced by, differential understandings of 
the world. Today, at this moment, for the same groups of people, cold 
fusion is dead, but it is also alive . . ."

. . . he is talking about people, not cold fusion per se. I think he is 
right about the people, but which group of people is right about cold 
fusion? You cannot tell by looking at the people or their behavior. You 
have to do the physics experiment. Elsewhere he made a field observation in 
sociology: "As one physicist commented on the CETI water heating device; 'I 
didn't buy it then, and I don't buy it now.'" Based on this observation, 
you can draw many fascinating conclusions about that physicist, and about 
physicists in general, especially when you have the opportunity to ask the 
physicist follow up questions such as: "How many papers about cold fusion 
have you read?" or "What, specifically, do you find wrong in the CETI 
calorimetry?" You will probably learn that he has no clue what CETI did, no 
idea what they claimed, what instruments they used, or any other relevant 
information. He has no rational basis to discuss the matter, any more than 
he can predict who will win the World Series. Science cannot be done by 
ESP, although many people act as if it can. Hearing this physicist talk 
about CETI teaches us a great deal about scientists, but it can teach us 
nothing about CETI or cold fusion.

Because our lives are brief, and our individual abilities limited, we must 
depend upon other people for the bulk of our information. We cannot perform 
experiments to verify every law in the textbook. We must take most of the 
textbook on faith. Simon acts as if this expedient shortcut is research. He 
discusses how scientists interact and how they evaluate reports and judge 
second-hand information. Strictly speaking, reading textbooks and papers is 
ersatz research. Real research is what a man does when he confronts an 
instrument or watches a natural phenomenon. When Mizuno felt the heat after 
death coming from his 100 gram Pd cell, and when he observed 37 liters of 
water evaporate without input power, he saw proof that cold fusion exists. 
Nature taught him the facts, directly, with absolute authority and utter 
finality. There can be no mistake, and no appeal. The opinions and 
interactions of ten thousand other scientists cannot overrule this 
observation. From that moment on Mizuno was forced to believe the effect is 
real. Any other conclusion would be madness.

Research is what you do when you directly confront nature; that is, when 
you observe things happen in the real world. Eating is what you do when 
stuff food in your mouth and swallow it. Reading a restaurant review in the 
newspaper is not eating. Reading someone else's opinion of CETI is not 
research. You cannot obtain nourishment by reading restaurant reviews. You 
cannot obtain real knowledge without doing an experiment, yourself, with 
your own hands and eyes. When you do obtain real knowledge, by seeing 37 
liters of water evaporate, you have looked into the heart of nature and 
seen the truth, as clearly as any man can see it. Others who have not yet 
looked at the water evaporate can only guess what the truth may be, judging 
by word-of-mouth, second-hand reports, which are unavoidably garbled. No 
one can record his own observations perfectly, in all detail, without 
distortion. Bacon said, "we are not to deny the authority of the human 
senses and understanding . . ." Some observations are close to the noise, 
ambiguous, or difficult to interpret. That is not the case when 37 liters 
of water evaporate. You can interpret this event without resorting to a 
complex theory which you might misunderstand or apply incorrectly. Planning 
and evaluating research always requires some measure of theory and an 
"educated eye." Any observation might be corrupted by the "idols of the 
mind" (illusions, culture, expectations). But some results speak so clearly 
the possibility of error is effectively reduced to zero.

Simon speaks of "closure" which he defines strictly as it pertains to 
opinion and human conventions. In experimental physics, closure is what 
nature does, when the experiment works spectacularly well, at such a high 
s/n ratio it would be insane to deny what it proves. Many experiments never 
reach this level of closure, but some do, and fortunately cold fusion is 
among them. Experiments are the interaction of man and nature; mind and 
physical reality. Nature is the supreme, unquestionable, final authority. 
Simon treats experiments as if they occur only in our minds, and as if we 
can choose what we make of them. Once he felt the hot cylinder and saw the 
water evaporate, Mizuno could no more deny the reality of cold fusion than 
you can convince yourself that 2 plus 2 equals 5.

Let me skip the bulk of the paper, and move to some of the conclusions. 
Simon makes the premodern error of confusing the human imagination with 
objective reality. He writes:

"Mainstream scientific culture produces truth not only because some 
knowledge claims are made into facts through the actions and associations 
of certain people and things, but also because in the same motion some 
other knowledge claims are made into artifacts or fictions. . . .

I also want to point out that cold fusion's existence is contingent on the 
particular relations between cold fusion researchers and mainstream 
scientific culture."

These statements are true in a narrow, metaphorical sense only. In the 
non-metaphorical real world, science never produces or destroys truth. 
Objective truth exists in nature, outside of man. Cold fusion either exists 
or it does not, and man has no say in the matter, any more than he can 
dictate whether the moon exists or not. Nature evaporated 37 liters of 
water, and Mizuno observed it. Nature's actions make it a fact, not the 
"actions and associations of other people." The rest of the human race may 
never believe this fact. The truth may be lost to the human race when 
Mizuno dies, but it will remain truth forever. Man is not the measure of 
all things. Most of our knowledge comes to us from other men as 
intermediates, so it might be wrong, but when unambiguous knowledge comes 
to us directly from nature, we must believe it. When researchers at Amoco 
said, "the calorimetry conclusively shows excess energy was produced . . ." 
they were talking about what the instruments forced them to conclude, not 
what they felt like concluding, or what "actions and associations" with 
other people might lead them to think. They were not talking about social 
behavior; they described what they did and saw with objects in the real 
world. They described a visceral experience as compelling as the caveman's 
experience watching a lighting bolt ignite a fire.

Simon comes dangerously close to confusing metaphor and perception, idea 
and reality. A professional scientist knows that what we call "textbook 
facts" and "theories" are only fragmentary approximations of reality. The 
only real reality is what the instruments, clouds, stars, trees, and rocks 
show. The real truth is out there, in physical objects and in the laws 
which govern them, but full understanding of that truth is forever beyond 
our reach. The work of science is not a few years short of completion. The 
real laws of nature are not slightly beyond our present limitations. They 
are infinitely larger, more complex, and more astounding than we can begin 
to imagine. As biologist Lewis Thomas pointed out, we will never fully 
understand the chemistry and biology of a single E. coli cell, never mind 
the ecosystem or evolution, which are trillions of times larger and more 
complex than E. coli.

Simon seems to expect some measure of unity of opinion among scientists. He 
puts a lot of stock in it, as if scientists as a group "make up their 
minds" about this or that, and they "reach closure." In practice, one man's 
theory is often another man's fiction. Ideas which one competent scientist 
embraces and assumes must be true, another equally competent person may 
dismiss. John Bockris says the Coulomb barrier is a "myth" and a 
"shibboleth" whereas most others assume it is real. This is normal. It is 
nothing to worry about. It is inescapable, given the limitations of the 
human imagination and lifetime.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 19 14:22:30 2001
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Excellent essay on war
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:19:55 -0500
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Gene Mallove says in the current issue of IE: 
>"These emerging discoveries now underway will lead, I believe, on a 
>straight path to the development of free energy devices and 
>propulsion systems of unlimited capacity."

Indeed, that is exactly what I said and am certain will eventually happen.
>
>Unlimited capacity? You mean in the near future, someone could build 
>an incredibly powerful propulsion system, bolt it to the keel of a 
>leaky old longliner, fill the boat's holds and tanks up with diesel, 
>and fly it into the rebuilt-WTC at around Mach 1?

Or, deliver small weapons  easily adn quickly -- even conventional ones 
-- from any point on the globe.

Remember, the Wright brothers' "impossible" invention is now a mainstay 
of war and 98 years later became an appalling terrorist weapon.


> If we're the good 
>guys, just whose side are we on? Seems there's never a good Tesla 
>Shield around when you need one.
>
>And even with Shields Up - did you see the movie "Final Fantasy" 
>(made here in Hawaii entirely by computer animation)? Earth is dead 
>except for one shielded city. Eventually, of course, "trouble" 
>manages to get past even that last defense.
>
>Until we fix ourselves from within *somehow*, I doubt civilization 
>will survive the arrival of Gene's fabulous machines for more than a 
>few months. 

I'm not sure its possible really to "fix ourselves" quickly enough. Oh, I 
have hope that we'll survive the outbreak of new physics and cold fusion, 
but it won't be easy. Our species is *homo absurdus*  -- as I have often 
said.  The behavior of homo absurdus toward CF for the past 13 years is 
proof positive that homo absurdus is what we are. That's why  I'm hoping 
new physics discoveries will let us go off planet easily, as soon as 
possible, to found new worlds where  new sub-groups of homo absurdus will 
found societies that WILL prevail, even if this one doesn't.

>Eschaton anyone?
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 19 18:06:50 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Oct 19, 2001
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:09:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 19 Oct 01   Washington, DC

1. NASA: THE GOLDIN AGE DRAWS TO A CLOSE.  A Bush is back in the
White House, but Dan Goldin, the only agency head to survive the
Clinton takeover, is stepping down as NASA Administrator.  He won
the hearts of many scientists with a speech at the 20th birthday
party of Pioneer 10, in which he pledged a return to the "better,
faster, cheaper" NASA of yore (WN 5 Jun 92).  Four years later,
Scientists cheered Goldin again at a AAAS meeting, when he ripped
into space station contractors, accusing them of "stealing from
the American public"(WN 16 Feb 96).  Ironically, cost overruns on
the space station eventually eroded his support.  The crew of the
ISS is now a Mir-sized 3, and there's not much for them to do. In
today's world it's difficult to imagine a less relevant program. 
While Goldin's departure is not unexpected (WN 18 May 01), there
doesn't seem to be a long line of people wanting the job.

2. EVOLUTION AGAIN: K-12 EDUCATION BILL IS THE LATEST VEHICLE.  A
Sense-of-the-Senate amendment introduced by Rick Santorum (R-PA)
is part of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act.  It urges
that: "where biological evolution is taught, the curriculum
should help students to understand why this subject generates so
much continuing controversy, and should prepare the students to
be informed participants in public discussion regarding the
subject."  Evolution is thus portrayed as an open scientific
controversy.  Framed by intelligent design/anti-evolution guru
Phillip Johnson, it's the Kansas thing(WN 13 Aug 99) on a
national scale.  Worse, it carried 91-8.  Those supporting the
resolution tended to dismiss it as non-binding, but it will be
waved in the air at every school board debate on the issue.

3. MORE ANTI-SCIENCE: CLINTON'S LEGACY ON ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE.
The White House Commission on Complementary and Alternative
Medicine Policy was created by Executive Order in the waning days
of the Clinton Administration.  Of the 20 commission members, not
one is a notable medical researcher or scientist.  Their goal, as
stated by the Chairman, James Gordon, is "to look at medicine and
health care from a different perspective that can lead to a new
model of medicine and even a new model of human biology."  Gordon
sees their report, due out in March, as replacing the Flexner
Report in 1910. Written for the Carnegie Foundation, the landmark
Flexner Report established medicine as a scientific enterprise,
and seemed to doom superstitious healing.  Sadly, it didn't.

4. BIO-TERRORISM: SO FAR, THE COUNT IS ONE DEAD.  Fortunately,
those exposed to anthrax are being diagnosed and treated with the
very latest scientific medicine.  They are not being treated by
homeopathy, acupuncture, touch therapy, magnets, reflexology,
crystals, chelation, craniosacral therapy, echinacea,
aromatherapy or yohimbe bark.  And no one is complaining.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

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  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

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	From Safety Council.

We've been notified by Building Security that there have been 4 suspected
terrorists working at our office. Three of the four have been apprehended.
Bin Sleepin, Bin Loafin, and Bin Drinkin have been taken into custody.
Security advised us that they could find noone fitting the description of
the fourth cell member, Bin Workin, in the office. Police are confident
that anyone who looks like he's Bin Workin will be very easy to spot.


	(from a guy who got laid off yesterday)

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C158FD.3E40F860--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 20 06:58:16 2001
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From: Bart Simon <simonb alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: measuring loading ratio
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Hi,

Please forgive my ignorance. Can some one give me a quick description of
how one measures the Pd:D ratio of the cathode in liquid or gas phase
experiments? I know you have to weigh the cathode but how is this
physically accomplished during the experiment?

Also can anyone point me to a paper that plots change in loading ratio over
the duration of a heat or helium producing CF experiment?

cheers,
Bart
------------------------------------------------------
Bart Simon, Asst. Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Concordia University, LB-687
1455 De Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
Montreal, Quebec, Canada  H3G 1M8

phone: 514-848-2164
email: simonb alcor.concordia.ca
-------------------------------------------------------

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 20 18:07:07 2001
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Message-ID: <005801c159cc$d236ed20$d236a6d8 ronscomputer>
From: "Ron Marshall" <ronstar texas.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re_OFF_TOPIC_a_late_'90s_clich=E9=2C_it's_only_boring_beca?=
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?use_it's_true?=
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:07:45 -0500
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This is either a big truth or a big lie.  If the Clinton Administration
supported the installation of the Taliban, then that ought to be a provable
thing.  I think this is a big lie.

Ron Marshall

>>From Michael Randall:

[snip]
As Central Asian expert Ahmed Rashid describes in his 2000
book "Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central
Asia," the U.S. and Pakistan decided to install a stable regime in
Afghanistan around 1994 -- a regime that would end the country's
civil war and thus ensure the safety of the Unocal pipeline project.
Impressed by the ruthlessness and willingness of the then-emerging
Taliban to cut a pipeline deal, the U.S. State Department and
Pakistan's ISI intelligence service agreed to funnel arms and funding
to the Taliban in their war against the ethnically Tajik Northern
Alliance. It has been reported that as recently as 1999, U.S.
taxpayers paid the entire annual salary of every single Taliban
government official, all in the hopes of returning to the days of
dollar-a-gallon gas. Pakistan, naturally, would pick up revenues from
a Karachi oil port facility. Harkening to 19th century power politics
between Russia and British India, Rashid dubbed the struggle for
control of post-Soviet Central Asia "the new Great Game."

[snip]
<<

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 20 21:46:25 2001
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_OFF_TOPIC_a_late_'90s_clich=E9?=
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At 08:07 PM 10/20/01 -0500, you wrote:
>This is either a big truth or a big lie.  If the Clinton Administration
>supported the installation of the Taliban, then that ought to be a provable
>thing.  I think this is a big lie.
>
>Ron Marshall
>
> >>From Michael Randall:
>
>[snip]
>As Central Asian expert Ahmed Rashid describes in his 2000
>book "Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central
>Asia," the U.S. and Pakistan decided to install a stable regime in

Yah it smacks of the tabloids.  Besides gas prices are governed by how much 
you are willing to pay not by the actual cost.  Haven't you noticed that 
the price changes at the pump the moment news breaks of higher per barrel 
price.  Then when the per barrel price dumps back off the price at the pump 
gradually slides down.

But if you are thinking that BC was a good president think about this.

After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military
personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down
and punished.

After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19
and injured 200 U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those
responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and
injured 5,000; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted
down and punished.

After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 39
U.S. sailors; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and
punished.

Maybe if Clinton had kept his promise, an estimated 7,000 people in New
York and Washington, D.C. that are now dead would be Alive today.

AN INTERESTING QUESTION:
This question was raised on a Philly radio call-in show. Without casting
stones, it is a legitimate question.

There are two men, both extremely wealthy.

One develops relatively cheap software and gives billions of dollars to
charity. The other sponsors terrorism. That being the case, why is it that the
Clinton Administration spent more money chasing down Bill Gates over the
past eight years than Osama bin Laden?
THINK ABOUT IT!

It is a strange turn of events. Hillary gets $8 Million for her
forthcoming memoir. Bill gets about $12 Million for his memoir yet to be 
written.
This from two people who have spent the past 8 years being unable to recall
anything about past events while under oath!

THINK ABOUT IT!




_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 21 08:20:11 2001
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Dear Bart,
The methods involve the following:

Weight change:  The weight is measured after a known time from when the sample
was removed from the cell and the D2 content extrapolated back to zero time.

D2 Pressure change:  The cell is pressurized with D2 and the pressure
reduction measured.  A recombination catalyst is required when applied to an
electrolytic cell.

O2 pressure (volume) change: In a P-F cell containing a catalyst, orphaned
oxygen is produced as D enters the Pd.  The volume of O2 can be measured and
used to calculate the D/Pd ratio.

Resistance change:  The resistance of the Pd is measured as it is loaded with
D.  The resistance increases as beta PdD is formed and decreases as D is added
to beta PdD.

Resonance behavior:  The PdD ratio of thin layers applied to quartz has been
measured by noting the change in resonance frequency of the quartz.

Regards,
Ed



Bart Simon wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Please forgive my ignorance. Can some one give me a quick description of
> how one measures the Pd:D ratio of the cathode in liquid or gas phase
> experiments? I know you have to weigh the cathode but how is this
> physically accomplished during the experiment?
>
> Also can anyone point me to a paper that plots change in loading ratio over
> the duration of a heat or helium producing CF experiment?
>
> cheers,
> Bart
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Bart Simon, Asst. Professor
> Department of Sociology and Anthropology
> Concordia University, LB-687
> 1455 De Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
> Montreal, Quebec, Canada  H3G 1M8
>
> phone: 514-848-2164
> email: simonb alcor.concordia.ca
> -------------------------------------------------------

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 21 12:37:40 2001
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Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 11:49:16 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Magnetic Carbon.
Cc: knagel gis.net
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At 1:42 PM 10/19/1, hank scudder wrote:
>Bucky Balls and nanotubes are usually made by ablating a Carbon rod with a
>laser, and collecting the "soot" on a cooled electrode. An arc might due
>similiar vaporizing of the Carbon, and condensimg the vapor on adjacent
>grains. Carbon, with its valence of 4, can combine in a wide variety of
>forms, with various sp3, sp2 and sp bonding. sp3 bonding results in
>diamonds, sp2 in graphite, and related structures such as nanotubes and
>bucky balls.
>
>Hank


Carbon arc was the principle means of making Bucky Balls when they were
first discovered.  In fact, there was a run on Sears welders due to all the
folks wanting to experiment with Bucky Balls.  The key to making them in an
arc is to make the arc in an inert gas like argon or helium.  The resulting
soot is collected from the (cool) sides of the container of the arc and the
Bucky Balls, which make up only a small portion of the soot, are then
separated by chemical means.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 21 12:39:41 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: measuring loading ratio
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Some aside comments re hydrogen loading measurement:

Hydrogen and lithium loading have been measured by SIMS  (e.g. Yoshitake H,
Kamiya N, Ota K-i; J. Electroanal. Chem. 390 (1995) 127. "Hydrogen
absorption and Li inclusion in a Pd cathode in LiOH solution") but this
method has not been applied to an energy balance type experiment to my
knowledge and likely would be difficult to impossible to implement in a
running experiment.

Detailed studies of not only loading but the precise atomic structure,
including sites involved, bond energy levels, proton pairing percentages,
etc., have been carried out using NMR and neutron scattering techniques.
(Wipf,*Hydrogen in Metals III*, Springer Verlag, 1997, ISBN 3-540-61639-X)
These methods have been used in purely mainstream hydrogen investigations
and have not been applied in situ in any LENR experiment to my knowledge.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 21 19:09:36 2001
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Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:00:55 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC a late '90s =?iso-8859-1?Q?clich=C8?= , it's only boring 
 because it's true
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At 8:07 PM -0500 10/20/01, Ron Marshall wrote:

>This is either a big truth or a big lie.  If the Clinton Administration
>supported the installation of the Taliban, then that ought to be a provable
>thing.  I think this is a big lie.
>
>Ron Marshall


Ted Rall is a professional America hater and his article consists of 
nothing but lies. Start with his claims regarding oil reserves and 
work your way down. The Unocal effort to explore a pipeline deal 
terminated in 1998, etc.

The fool still things Al Gore was elected president and Bush "stole" 
the election. If you think I'm exaggerating about the hatred, check 
out his "cartoons".

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 21 20:17:58 2001
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Charles Ford said:
>>[snip]
But if you are thinking that BC was a good president think about this.

After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military
personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down
and punished.

After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19
and injured 200 U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those
responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and
injured 5,000; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted
down and punished.

After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 39
U.S. sailors; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down
and
punished.

Maybe if Clinton had kept his promise, an estimated 7,000 people in New
York and Washington, D.C. that are now dead would be Alive today.

AN INTERESTING QUESTION:
This question was raised on a Philly radio call-in show. Without casting
stones, it is a legitimate question.

There are two men, both extremely wealthy.

One develops relatively cheap software and gives billions of dollars to
charity. The other sponsors terrorism. That being the case, why is it that
the
Clinton Administration spent more money chasing down Bill Gates over the
past eight years than Osama bin Laden?
THINK ABOUT IT!

It is a strange turn of events. Hillary gets $8 Million for her
forthcoming memoir. Bill gets about $12 Million for his memoir yet to be
written.
This from two people who have spent the past 8 years being unable to recall
anything about past events while under oath!

THINK ABOUT IT!
<<
I think that Bill Clinton like any President should be damned for his
mistakes.  It was his job to get Osama Bin Laden and he didn't.  So should
George Bush be damned for leaving Saddam Hussein in charge of Iraq, probably
the greatest blunder by a US President in the twentieth century.

I am not a fan of Bill Gates and I do not see where he comes into it.  He
gives millions to charity not billions.  I have seen no evidence that he
gives more money to charity as a percentage of income than I do. The country
has had antitrust laws for over 100 years and if anything the Clinton and
Bush administrations should be faulted for not using these laws more
aggressively.  More and more economic power is ending up in fewer and fewer
hands.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 22 06:41:22 2001
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Here is an essay that actually tries to deal with the
present situation in a rational and honest way, in contrast
to what we hear from government sources.  The letter to the
President was written in 1998.  Unfortunately, I do not see
how the present policy can be changed, given the level of
anger and the ineffectiveness of the Media to give
insightful understanding.

WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT TERRORISM?

by Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Lt. Col., USAF, ret.

http://www.rmbowman.com/ssn/terror3.htm

A few years ago, terrorists destroyed two U.S. embassies.
President
Clinton retaliated against suspected facilities of Osama bin
Laden.
In his television address, the President told the American
people
that we were the targets of terrorism because we stood for
democracy, freedom, and human rights in the world.

On that occasion, I wrote: "Tell people the truth, Mr.
President
... about terrorism, not about poor Monica. If your lies
about
terrorism go unchallenged, then the terror war you have
unleashed
will likely continue until it destroys us.

"The threat of nuclear terrorism is closing in upon us.
Chemical
terrorism is at hand, and biological terrorism is a future
danger.
None of our thousands of nuclear weapons can protect us from
these
threats. These idols of plutonium, titanium, and steel are
impotent. Our worship of them for over five decades has not
brought
us security, only greater danger. No 'Star Wars' system ...
no
matter how technically advanced, no matter how many
trillions of
dollars was poured into it ... can protect us from even a
single
terrorist bomb. Not one weapon in our vast arsenal can
shield us
from a nuclear weapon delivered in a sailboat or a Piper Cub
or a
suitcase or a Ryder rental truck. Not a penny of the 273
billion
dollars a year we spend on so-called defense can actually
defend us
against a terrorist bomb. Nothing in our enormous military
establishment can actually give us one whit of security.
That is a
military fact.

"Mr. President, you did not tell the American people the
truth
about why we are the targets of terrorism. You said that we
are the
target because we stand for democracy, freedom, and human
rights in
the world. Baloney! We are the target of terrorists because
we
stand for dictatorship, bondage, and human exploitation in
the
world. We are the target of terrorists because we are hated.
And we
are hated because our government has done hateful things.

"In how many countries have we deposed popularly elected
leaders
and replaced them with puppet military dictators who were
willing
to sell out their own people to American multinational
corporations?

"We did it in Iran when we deposed Mossadegh because he
wanted to
nationalize the oil industry. We replaced him with the Shah,
and
trained, armed, and paid his hated Savak national guard,
which
enslaved and brutalized the people of Iran. All to protect
the
financial interests of our oil companies. Is it any wonder
there
are people in Iran who hate us?

"We did it in Chile when we deposed Allende, democratically
elected
by the people to introduce socialism. We replaced him with
the
brutal right-wing military dictator, General Pinochet. Chile
has
still not recovered.

"We did it in Vietnam when we thwarted democratic elections
in the
South which would have united the country under Ho Chi Minh.
We
replaced him with a series of ineffectual puppet crooks who
invited
us to come in and slaughter their people -- and we did. (I
flew 101
combat missions in that war which you properly opposed.)

"We did it in Iraq, where we killed a quarter of a million
civilians in a failed attempt to topple Saddam Hussein, and
where
we have killed a million since then with our sanctions.
About half
of these innocent victims have been children under the age
of five.

"And, of course, how many times have we done it in Nicaragua
and
all the other banana republics of Latin America? Time after
time we
have ousted popular leaders who wanted the riches of the
land to be
shared by the people who worked it. We replaced them with
murderous
tyrants who would sell out and control their own people so
that the
wealth of the land could be taken out by Domino Sugar, the
United
Fruit Company, Folgers, and Chiquita Banana.

"In country after country, our government has thwarted
democracy,
stifled freedom, and trampled human rights. That's why we
are hated
around the world. And that's why we are the target of
terrorists.

"People in Canada enjoy better democracy, more freedom, and
greater
human rights than we do. So do the people of Norway and
Sweden.
Have you heard of Canadian embassies being bombed? Or
Norwegian
embassies? Or Swedish embassies. No.

"We are not hated because we practice democracy, freedom,
and human
rights. We are hated because our government denies these
things to
people in third world countries whose resources are coveted
by our
multinational corporations. And that hatred we have sown has
come
back to haunt us in the form of terrorism -- and in the
future,
nuclear terrorism.

"Once the truth about why the threat exists is understood,
the
solution becomes obvious. We must change our government's
ways.

"Instead of sending our sons and daughters around the world
to kill
Arabs so the oil companies can sell the oil under their
sand, we
must send them to rebuild their infrastructure, supply clean
water,
and feed starving children.

"Instead of continuing to kill thousands of Iraqi children
every
day with our sanctions, we must help them rebuild their
electric
powerplants, their water treatment facilities, their
hospitals --
all the things we destroyed in our war against them and
prevented
them from rebuilding with our sanctions.

"Instead of seeking to be king of the hill, we must become a

responsible member of the family of nations. Instead of
stationing
hundreds of thousands of troops around the world to protect
the
financial interests of our multinational corporations, we
must
bring them home and expand the Peace Corps.

"Instead of training terrorists and death squads in the
techniques
of torture and assassination, we must close the School of
the
Americas (no matter what name they use). Instead of
supporting
military dictatorships, we must support true democracy --
the right
of the people to choose their own leaders. Instead of
supporting
insurrection, destabilization, assassination, and terror
around the
world, we must abolish the CIA and give the money to relief
agencies.

"In short, we do good instead of evil. We become the good
guys,
once again. The threat of terrorism would vanish. That is
the
truth, Mr. President. That is what the American people need
to
hear. We are good people. We only need to be told the truth
and
given the vision. You can do it, Mr. President. Stop the
killing.
Stop the justifying. Stop the retaliating. Put people first.
Tell
them the truth."

Needless to say, he didn't ... and neither has George W.
Bush.
Well, the seeds our policies have planted have borne their
bitter
fruit. The World Trade Center is gone. The Pentagon is
damaged. And
thousands of Americans have died. Almost every TV pundit is
crying
for massive military retaliation against whoever might have
done it
(assumedly the same Osama bin Laden) and against whoever
harbors or
aids the terrorists (most notably the Taliban government of
Afghanistan). Steve Dunleavy of the New York Post screams
"Kill the
bastards! Train assassins, hire mercenaries, put a couple of

million bucks up for bounty hunters to get them dead or
alive,
preferably dead. As for cities or countries that host these
worms,
bomb them into basketball courts." It's tempting to agree. I
have
no sympathy for the psychopaths that killed thousands of our

people. There is no excuse for such acts. If I was recalled
to
active duty, I would go in a heartbeat. At the same time,
all my
military experience and knowledge tells me that retaliation
hasn't
rid us of the problem in the past, and won't this time.

By far the world's best anti-terrorist apparatus is
Israel's.
Measured in military terms, it has been phenomenally
successful.
Yet Israel still suffers more attacks than all other nations

combined. If retaliation worked, Israelis would be the
world's most
secure people.

Only one thing has ever ended a terrorist campaign --
denying the
terrorist organization the support of the larger community
it
represents. And the only way to do that is to listen to and
alleviate the legitimate grievances of the people. If indeed
Osama
bin Laden was behind the four hijackings and subsequent
carnage,
that means addressing the concerns of the Arabs and Muslims
in
general and of the Palestinians in particular. It does NOT
mean
abandoning Israel. But it may very well mean withdrawing
financial
and military support until they abandon the settlements in
occupied
territory and return to 1967 borders. It may also mean
allowing
Arab countries to have leaders of their own choosing, not
hand-picked, CIA-installed dictators willing to cooperate
with
Western oil companies.

Chester Gillings has said it very well: "How do we fight
back
against bin Laden? The first thing we must ask ourselves is
what is
it we hope to achieve -- security or revenge? The two are
mutually
exclusive; seek revenge and we WILL reduce our security. If
it is
security we seek, then we must begin to answer the tough
questions
-- what are the grievances of the Palestinians and the Arab
world
against the United States, and what is our real culpability
for
those grievances? Where we find legitimate culpability, we
must be
prepared to cure the grievance wherever possible. Where we
cannot
find culpability or a cure, we must communicate honestly our

positions directly to the Arab people. In short, our best
course of
action is to remove ourselves as a combatant in the disputes
of the
region."

To kill bin Laden now would be to make him an eternal
martyr.
Thousands would rise up to take his place. In another year,
we
would face another round of terrorism, probably much worse
even
than this one. Yet there is another way.

In the short term, we must protect ourselves from those who
already
hate us. This means increased security and better
intelligence. I
proposed to members of Congress in March that we should deny
any
funds for "Star Wars" until such time as the Executive
Branch could
show that they are doing all possible research on the
detection and
interception of weapons of mass destruction entering the
country
clandestinely (a far greater threat than ballistic
missiles). There
are lots of steps which can be taken to increase security
without
detracting from civil rights. But in the long term, we must
change
our policies to stop causing the fear and hatred which
creates new
terrorists. Becoming independent of foreign oil through
conservation, energy efficiency, production of energy from
renewable sources, and a transition to non-polluting
transportation
will allow us to adopt a more rational policy toward the
Middle
East.

The vast majority of Arabs and Muslims are good, peaceful
people.
But enough of them, in their desperation and anger and fear,
have
turned first to Arafat and now to bin Laden to relieve their

misery. Remove the desperation, give them some hope, and
support
for terrorism will evaporate. At that point bin Laden will
be
forced to abandon terrorism (as has Arafat) or be treated
like a
common criminal. Either way, he and his money cease to be a
threat.
We CAN have security ... or we can have revenge. We cannot
have
both.

===============================================================

Dr. Robert M. Bowman directed all the "Star Wars" programs
under
presidents Ford and Carter and flew 101 combat missions in
Vietnam.
His Ph.D. is in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from
Caltech.
He is President of the Institute for Space and Security
Studies and
Presiding Archbishop of the United Catholic Church.
2066 Deercroft Dr., Viera, FL 32940, Tel +1-321-752-5955.

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Subject: A Portable Force Field Belt Based On Resonant Frequencies & Sympathetic Vibratio
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A Portable Force Field Belt Based On Resonant Frequencies &
Sympathetic Vibration !

I am working on the designs of a portable force field belt which
may be used to filter out unwanted harmful energies. The basic
principles of the design of the belt are to use microtonal sound
waves as can be generated by a micromusic synthesizer and a
microsound sympathetic vibrator which may be placed on ones
belt. The microtonal sound waves generated from the device
may do the following:

1.Some of the microsound waves generated may resonate with
the human body to create a anti-gravity and anti-energy force
fields, which may filter out unwanted gravity and energy waves. 

The resonate frequencies of the human brain are around
450MHz, the rest of the frequencies of the human body I am
not sure of yet. 

One may also design a detector which senses the resonant
frequencies of the surrounding environment, and then generates
an anti-sound force field to filter out unwanted gravity waves or
energy waves in the environment. By using the science of
spherical resonance, one may develop a sensor and sound wave
generator to create the antisound or anti-gravity waves.  

The resonant frequencies of a 1-D room are given by the
equation f sub n = n c/2L where c is the speed of sound in the
room and n is an integer (n = 1,2,3,4,...) If the room has a
length L = 5m then the resonance frequencies of the first five
room modes are:

n f sub n
1 34.3
2 68.6
3 102.9
4 137.2
5 171.5

I also believe that the center of gravity of an object is
proportional to the resonant frequencies of the object.

One may need more complex resonant frequencies (3D) of the
near by environment to generate the proper anti-gravity waves
or anti-energy waves. 

I am reading the following books to reverse engineer the basic
principles of generating sound waves from sympathetic
materials and geometric structures used in levitation of objects
to understand how to create anti-gravity waves:

Universal Laws Never Before Revealed Keely's Secrets
Understanding and Using the Science of Sympathetic Vibration
by Dale Pond

Free Energy Pioneer: John Worrel Keely, Theo Paijmans,
Illuminet Press, 1998.

The Buddhist monks used drums, horns , and chants to create
sound waves to resonant with stone blocks to levitate them.   I
do not want my sound waves to levitate the object, but to filter
out unwanted gravity waves, the principles should be similar.

Sound waves can affect the electromagnetic properties in the
environment which can affect gravity waves. Also interfering
sound waves which generate finer frequencies down to 10^-40
meters or smaller may approximate gravity waves to filter them
or modify them. One may need to understand the science of the
resonant frequencies of nuclear subatomic particles which may
be similar to the science of the frequencies of larger objects, but
there may be some minor weird quirks which differentiate the
two sciences. One may need advanced computer modeling to
fully understand the differences between the resonant
frequencies of large objects and subatomic objects.

2. Some of the microsound waves generated may enhance the
radionic templates that affect the genetic structure desired by
the individual wearing the device.

One may use the infrared frequencies of the DNA translated
into proportional microtonal sound waves which I have posted
at my web site into  music to create radionic templates to
encourage DNA traits. 

3. I also may need to design a portable energy conversion
device to power the portable force field device. 

The basic principles of sympathetic vibration and interfering
sound waves may extract energy from the environment. Air may
be converted into electricity and water. Other gravity waves and
energy waves may also be converted into electricity.

If you have an recommendations, ideas, and reference materials
on the above subjects please send me an email response to
tom rhfweb.com.

Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
www.rhfweb.com\personal
tom rhfweb.com


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>A Portable Force Field Belt Based On Resonant Frequencies &amp;
<BR>Sympathetic Vibration !
<BR>
<BR>I am working on the designs of a portable force field belt which
<BR>may be used to filter out unwanted harmful energies. The basic
<BR>principles of the design of the belt are to use microtonal sound
<BR>waves as can be generated by a micromusic synthesizer and a
<BR>microsound sympathetic vibrator which may be placed on ones
<BR>belt. The microtonal sound waves generated from the device
<BR>may do the following:
<BR>
<BR>1.Some of the microsound waves generated may resonate with
<BR>the human body to create a anti-gravity and anti-energy force
<BR>fields, which may filter out unwanted gravity and energy waves. 
<BR>
<BR>The resonate frequencies of the human brain are around
<BR>450MHz, the rest of the frequencies of the human body I am
<BR>not sure of yet. 
<BR>
<BR>One may also design a detector which senses the resonant
<BR>frequencies of the surrounding environment, and then generates
<BR>an anti-sound force field to filter out unwanted gravity waves or
<BR>energy waves in the environment. By using the science of
<BR>spherical resonance, one may develop a sensor and sound wave
<BR>generator to create the antisound or anti-gravity waves. &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>The resonant frequencies of a 1-D room are given by the
<BR>equation f sub n = n c/2L where c is the speed of sound in the
<BR>room and n is an integer (n = 1,2,3,4,...) If the room has a
<BR>length L = 5m then the resonance frequencies of the first five
<BR>room modes are:
<BR>
<BR>n f sub n
<BR>1 34.3
<BR>2 68.6
<BR>3 102.9
<BR>4 137.2
<BR>5 171.5
<BR>
<BR>I also believe that the center of gravity of an object is
<BR>proportional to the resonant frequencies of the object.
<BR>
<BR>One may need more complex resonant frequencies (3D) of the
<BR>near by environment to generate the proper anti-gravity waves
<BR>or anti-energy waves. 
<BR>
<BR>I am reading the following books to reverse engineer the basic
<BR>principles of generating sound waves from sympathetic
<BR>materials and geometric structures used in levitation of objects
<BR>to understand how to create anti-gravity waves:
<BR>
<BR>Universal Laws Never Before Revealed Keely's Secrets
<BR>Understanding and Using the Science of Sympathetic Vibration
<BR>by Dale Pond
<BR>
<BR>Free Energy Pioneer: John Worrel Keely, Theo Paijmans,
<BR>Illuminet Press, 1998.
<BR>
<BR>The Buddhist monks used drums, horns , and chants to create
<BR>sound waves to resonant with stone blocks to levitate them. &nbsp;&nbsp;I
<BR>do not want my sound waves to levitate the object, but to filter
<BR>out unwanted gravity waves, the principles should be similar.
<BR>
<BR>Sound waves can affect the electromagnetic properties in the
<BR>environment which can affect gravity waves. Also interfering
<BR>sound waves which generate finer frequencies down to 10^-40
<BR>meters or smaller may approximate gravity waves to filter them
<BR>or modify them. One may need to understand the science of the
<BR>resonant frequencies of nuclear subatomic particles which may
<BR>be similar to the science of the frequencies of larger objects, but
<BR>there may be some minor weird quirks which differentiate the
<BR>two sciences. One may need advanced computer modeling to
<BR>fully understand the differences between the resonant
<BR>frequencies of large objects and subatomic objects.
<BR>
<BR>2. Some of the microsound waves generated may enhance the
<BR>radionic templates that affect the genetic structure desired by
<BR>the individual wearing the device.
<BR>
<BR>One may use the infrared frequencies of the DNA translated
<BR>into proportional microtonal sound waves which I have posted
<BR>at my web site into &nbsp;music to create radionic templates to
<BR>encourage DNA traits. 
<BR>
<BR>3. I also may need to design a portable energy conversion
<BR>device to power the portable force field device. 
<BR>
<BR>The basic principles of sympathetic vibration and interfering
<BR>sound waves may extract energy from the environment. Air may
<BR>be converted into electricity and water. Other gravity waves and
<BR>energy waves may also be converted into electricity.
<BR>
<BR>If you have an recommendations, ideas, and reference materials
<BR>on the above subjects please send me an email response to
<BR>tom rhfweb.com.
<BR>
<BR>Respectfully,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>www.rhfweb.com\personal
<BR>tom rhfweb.com
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_f7.112056bc.2905a245_boundary--

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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:46:23 EDT
Subject: A Portable Force Field Belt Based On Resonant Frequencies &  Sympathetic Vibrati
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A Portable Force Field Belt Based On Resonant Frequencies &=20
Sympathetic Vibration !=20

I am working on the designs of a portable force field belt which=20
may be used to filter out unwanted harmful energies. The basic=20
principles of the design of the belt are to use microtonal sound=20
waves as can be generated by a micromusic synthesizer and a=20
microsound sympathetic vibrator which may be placed on ones=20
belt. The microtonal sound waves generated from the device=20
may do the following:=20

1.Some of the microsound waves generated may resonate with=20
the human body to create a anti-gravity and anti-energy force=20
fields, which may filter out unwanted gravity and energy waves.=20

The resonate frequencies of the human brain are around=20
450MHz, the rest of the frequencies of the human body I am=20
not sure of yet.=20

One may also design a detector which senses the resonant=20
frequencies of the surrounding environment, and then generates=20
an anti-sound force field to filter out unwanted gravity waves or=20
energy waves in the environment. By using the science of=20
spherical resonance, one may develop a sensor and sound wave=20
generator to create the antisound or anti-gravity waves. =A0=20

The resonant frequencies of a 1-D room are given by the=20
equation f sub n =3D n c/2L where c is the speed of sound in the=20
room and n is an integer (n =3D 1,2,3,4,...) If the room has a=20
length L =3D 5m then the resonance frequencies of the first five=20
room modes are:=20

n f sub n=20
1 34.3=20
2 68.6=20
3 102.9=20
4 137.2=20
5 171.5=20

I also believe that the center of gravity of an object is=20
proportional to the resonant frequencies of the object.=20

One may need more complex resonant frequencies (3D) of the=20
near by environment to generate the proper anti-gravity waves=20
or anti-energy waves.=20

I am reading the following books to reverse engineer the basic=20
principles of generating sound waves from sympathetic=20
materials and geometric structures used in levitation of objects=20
to understand how to create anti-gravity waves:=20

Universal Laws Never Before Revealed Keely's Secrets=20
Understanding and Using the Science of Sympathetic Vibration=20
by Dale Pond=20

Free Energy Pioneer: John Worrel Keely, Theo Paijmans,=20
Illuminet Press, 1998.=20

The Buddhist monks used drums, horns , and chants to create=20
sound waves to resonant with stone blocks to levitate them. =A0=A0I=20
do not want my sound waves to levitate the object, but to filter=20
out unwanted gravity waves, the principles should be similar.=20

Sound waves can affect the electromagnetic properties in the=20
environment which can affect gravity waves. Also interfering=20
sound waves which generate finer frequencies down to 10^-40=20
meters or smaller may approximate gravity waves to filter them=20
or modify them. One may need to understand the science of the=20
resonant frequencies of nuclear subatomic particles which may=20
be similar to the science of the frequencies of larger objects, but=20
there may be some minor weird quirks which differentiate the=20
two sciences. One may need advanced computer modeling to=20
fully understand the differences between the resonant=20
frequencies of large objects and subatomic objects.=20

2. Some of the microsound waves generated may enhance the=20
radionic templates that affect the genetic structure desired by=20
the individual wearing the device.=20

One may use the infrared frequencies of the DNA translated=20
into proportional microtonal sound waves which I have posted=20
at my web site into =A0music to create radionic templates to=20
encourage DNA traits.=20

3. I also may need to design a portable energy conversion=20
device to power the portable force field device.=20

The basic principles of sympathetic vibration and interfering=20
sound waves may extract energy from the environment. Air may=20
be converted into electricity and water. Other gravity waves and=20
energy waves may also be converted into electricity.=20

If you have an recommendations, ideas, and reference materials=20
on the above subjects please send me an email response to=20
tom rhfweb.com.=20

Respectfully,=20


Thomas Clark=20
www.rhfweb.com\personal=20
tom rhfweb.com=20




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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2>A Portable Force Field Be=
lt Based On Resonant Frequencies &amp;=20
<BR>Sympathetic Vibration !=20
<BR>
<BR>I am working on the designs of a portable force field belt which=20
<BR>may be used to filter out unwanted harmful energies. The basic=20
<BR>principles of the design of the belt are to use microtonal sound=20
<BR>waves as can be generated by a micromusic synthesizer and a=20
<BR>microsound sympathetic vibrator which may be placed on ones=20
<BR>belt. The microtonal sound waves generated from the device=20
<BR>may do the following:=20
<BR>
<BR>1.Some of the microsound waves generated may resonate with=20
<BR>the human body to create a anti-gravity and anti-energy force=20
<BR>fields, which may filter out unwanted gravity and energy waves.=20
<BR>
<BR>The resonate frequencies of the human brain are around=20
<BR>450MHz, the rest of the frequencies of the human body I am=20
<BR>not sure of yet.=20
<BR>
<BR>One may also design a detector which senses the resonant=20
<BR>frequencies of the surrounding environment, and then generates=20
<BR>an anti-sound force field to filter out unwanted gravity waves or=20
<BR>energy waves in the environment. By using the science of=20
<BR>spherical resonance, one may develop a sensor and sound wave=20
<BR>generator to create the antisound or anti-gravity waves. =A0=20
<BR>
<BR>The resonant frequencies of a 1-D room are given by the=20
<BR>equation f sub n =3D n c/2L where c is the speed of sound in the=20
<BR>room and n is an integer (n =3D 1,2,3,4,...) If the room has a=20
<BR>length L =3D 5m then the resonance frequencies of the first five=20
<BR>room modes are:=20
<BR>
<BR>n f sub n=20
<BR>1 34.3=20
<BR>2 68.6=20
<BR>3 102.9=20
<BR>4 137.2=20
<BR>5 171.5=20
<BR>
<BR>I also believe that the center of gravity of an object is=20
<BR>proportional to the resonant frequencies of the object.=20
<BR>
<BR>One may need more complex resonant frequencies (3D) of the=20
<BR>near by environment to generate the proper anti-gravity waves=20
<BR>or anti-energy waves.=20
<BR>
<BR>I am reading the following books to reverse engineer the basic=20
<BR>principles of generating sound waves from sympathetic=20
<BR>materials and geometric structures used in levitation of objects=20
<BR>to understand how to create anti-gravity waves:=20
<BR>
<BR>Universal Laws Never Before Revealed Keely's Secrets=20
<BR>Understanding and Using the Science of Sympathetic Vibration=20
<BR>by Dale Pond=20
<BR>
<BR>Free Energy Pioneer: John Worrel Keely, Theo Paijmans,=20
<BR>Illuminet Press, 1998.=20
<BR>
<BR>The Buddhist monks used drums, horns , and chants to create=20
<BR>sound waves to resonant with stone blocks to levitate them. =A0=A0I=20
<BR>do not want my sound waves to levitate the object, but to filter=20
<BR>out unwanted gravity waves, the principles should be similar.=20
<BR>
<BR>Sound waves can affect the electromagnetic properties in the=20
<BR>environment which can affect gravity waves. Also interfering=20
<BR>sound waves which generate finer frequencies down to 10^-40=20
<BR>meters or smaller may approximate gravity waves to filter them=20
<BR>or modify them. One may need to understand the science of the=20
<BR>resonant frequencies of nuclear subatomic particles which may=20
<BR>be similar to the science of the frequencies of larger objects, but=20
<BR>there may be some minor weird quirks which differentiate the=20
<BR>two sciences. One may need advanced computer modeling to=20
<BR>fully understand the differences between the resonant=20
<BR>frequencies of large objects and subatomic objects.=20
<BR>
<BR>2. Some of the microsound waves generated may enhance the=20
<BR>radionic templates that affect the genetic structure desired by=20
<BR>the individual wearing the device.=20
<BR>
<BR>One may use the infrared frequencies of the DNA translated=20
<BR>into proportional microtonal sound waves which I have posted=20
<BR>at my web site into =A0music to create radionic templates to=20
<BR>encourage DNA traits.=20
<BR>
<BR>3. I also may need to design a portable energy conversion=20
<BR>device to power the portable force field device.=20
<BR>
<BR>The basic principles of sympathetic vibration and interfering=20
<BR>sound waves may extract energy from the environment. Air may=20
<BR>be converted into electricity and water. Other gravity waves and=20
<BR>energy waves may also be converted into electricity.=20
<BR>
<BR>If you have an recommendations, ideas, and reference materials=20
<BR>on the above subjects please send me an email response to=20
<BR>tom rhfweb.com.=20
<BR>
<BR>Respectfully,=20
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark=20
<BR>www.rhfweb.com\personal=20
<BR>tom rhfweb.com=20
<BR></XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0f0f0f" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 22 21:34:25 2001
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Message-ID: <008901c15b7b$68181bc0$0301a8c0 m>
From: "Michael Randall" <vrand01 earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <200110192120.RAA05195 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: I.E. Aether 
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:30:12 -0700
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Thank you  Gene, Jed and I.E staff for another excellent issue of Infinite
Energy, keep up the good work.  Really enjoyed the aether info on the
Correa's.  Looking forward to hearing more on their aether motors.

Regards,
Michael Randall


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 22 22:59:04 2001
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From: "Michael Randall" <vrand01 earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: OFF Topic;  Miraculous Messages from Water
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:56:52 -0700
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Some interesting photo's of water crystals.

"Scientists and researchers are continuing to show us that our thoughts
affect our own vibrational energy which directly affects the structure of
the very water within our bodies and in our environment. It has been proven
that water, in it's natural and healthy state of purity and integrity, is
intelligent and highly responsive to all other forms of life. It is no
longer just theory, that water, like everything else, has consciousness. "

http://www.wellnessgoods.com/fl_water_index.html

http://www.wellnessgoods.com/fl_art_wat_messages.html

Regards,
Michael Randall




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 23 03:55:20 2001
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:51:31 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OFF Topic;  Miraculous Messages from Water
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On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 10:56:52PM -0700, Michael Randall wrote:
> Some interesting photo's of water crystals.
>=20
> "Scientists and researchers are continuing to show us that our thoughts
> affect our own vibrational energy which directly affects the structure of
> the very water within our bodies and in our environment. It has been prov=
en
> that water, in it's natural and healthy state of purity and integrity, is
> intelligent and highly responsive to all other forms of life. It is no
> longer just theory, that water, like everything else, has consciousness. "
>=20
> http://www.wellnessgoods.com/fl_water_index.html
>=20
> http://www.wellnessgoods.com/fl_art_wat_messages.html

What the article doesn't tell us, and I guess that we're lead to assume
is that water drops from the same source all freeze in exactly the same
way and produce the same types of crystals in the same conditions.

I always thought that every drop of water froze in a different way.
(at least every rain drop did).

Joe

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Subject: Buy  Laboratory Plastic Polytheneware 
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 =20
Phone : 91-171-699280
FAX    : 91-171-699280, 652282
e-mail :  eximcon mail.com
ADVANCE LABORATORY SUPPLIES CO=20
38, Azad Nagar, Jagadhri Road,
AMBALA CANTT 133 006
.
OCTOBER 25, 2001
.
Dear Sirs :
.
        We are manufacturers, stockists, distributors, of a wide range =
of=20
laboratory supplies       =20
=20
        Ambala is a producer of a very range of laboratory materials, =
i.e. instruments
equipments, apparatus, and supplies in glassware, metals, plastics, =
optics,=20
electricals, electronics, rubberware, etc., and we invite your valued =
enquiries
for any of the products for use in educational, industrial, testing, =
quality control
laboratories,        =20
.
        Presently we wish to offer world class quality at astonishingly =
attractive prices
complete range of Plastic Laboratoryware like Burettes, Animal cages, =
Pipettes, Beakers,
Flasks, Petri Disches, Stands for pipettes / retorts, burettes, funnels, =
stop cocks, as also
high quality digital micro pipettes.  All these materials are available =
in various grades
of plastics to suit each application, like Polycarbonate, High Density =
Polyethylene, Low=20
Density Polyethylene,  Polypropelean, Polymethylepentene, Teflon, and we =
have provided
physical properties for each material so as to assist you in proper =
selection of the materials.
.
        We invite your valued enquiries, or request for their price =
list, fob in US $'s. We have a=20
production capacity to meet any of your even large orders of US $ 1 Mn =
in 6-8 weeks.
.
        S.P.TUTEJA
        25.10.2001  =20
P.S.
.
        We invite offers for any or all of your present and future
laboratory needs.



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91-171-699280<BR>FAX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; :=20
91-171-699280, 652282<BR>e-mail :&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:eximcon mail.com">eximcon@mail.com</A><BR>ADVANCE =
LABORATORY=20
SUPPLIES CO </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>38, Azad Nagar, Jagadhri =
Road,<BR>AMBALA CANTT 133=20
006<BR>.<BR>OCTOBER 25, 2001<BR>.<BR>Dear Sirs =
:<BR>.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We are manufacturers, stockists, distributors, of a =
wide=20
range of </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>laboratory=20
supplies&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Ambala is a=20
producer of a very range of laboratory materials, i.e. =
instruments</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>equipments, apparatus, and supplies in =
glassware,=20
metals, plastics,&nbsp;optics, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>electricals, electronics, </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>rubberware,&nbsp;etc., and we invite your valued =
enquiries</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>for any of the&nbsp;products for use in =

educational, industrial, testing, quality control</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>laboratories,=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Presently we=20
wish to offer world class quality at astonishingly attractive=20
prices</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>complete range of =
Plastic&nbsp;Laboratoryware like=20
Burettes, Animal cages, Pipettes, Beakers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Flasks, Petri Disches, Stands for =
pipettes /=20
retorts, burettes, funnels, stop cocks, as also</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>high quality digital micro =
pipettes.&nbsp; All=20
these materials are available in various grades</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>of plastics to suit each application, =
like=20
Polycarbonate, High Density Polyethylene, Low </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Density =
Polyethylene,&nbsp;&nbsp;Polypropelean,=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
25.10.2001&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>P.S.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We invite offers for any or =
all of=20
your present and future</DIV>
<DIV>laboratory needs.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: eximcon SPAMMER, FRAUD ALERT
In-Reply-To: <004d01c15d4c$787f7080$569b09ca k8j3y3>
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, eximcon wrote:

> Dear Sirs :
> .
>         We are manufacturers, stockists, distributors, of a wide range of 
> laboratory supplies        


"eximcon", Mr S.P. Tuteja of "Scientific Glass Works" has been removed. I
have a very low threshold of tolerance for spammers .  His is not an
innocent mistake:  "eximcon" has been ejected from other lists for posting
unsolicited ads. 

Also he has a record of actual fraud, of taking customers' money and
simply not shipping them anything.  One person even posted a fraud alert
after losing 1500 bucks (URL below). 

  http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~lfh25/

If anyone here has been ripped off by Tuteja, please contact professor
Haas at the URL above.  
   

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 25 14:47:39 2001
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Message-ID: <08f001c15d9d$702053e0$6401a8c0 cs910664a>
From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
To: <cay electricspacecraft.com>
Cc: <jlnlabs yahoogroups.com>, <Lifters@yahoogroups.com>,
        <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <newelectrogravity@yahoogroups.com>,
        <greenglow yahoogroups.com>, <gravitycontrolresearch@egroups.com>
References: <LAW2-F48eSJIEoPXCFb00001a36 hotmail.com>
Subject: Biefield Brown Effects, & NASA BPPP
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:38:50 -0400
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To All,

Just to let everyone know, from a recent correspondence with Marc Millis:

NASA's Breakthrogh Propulsion Physics is aware of Transdimensional
Technologies' and other's work on "asymmetrical capacitors," or other
variations on a theme of the Biefield-Brown effect.

http://www.tdimension.com/
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifters.htm

To keep the record straight though, currently the NASA Breakthrough
Propulsion Physics Project is NOT sponsoring any of this work.

We should be aware however, that with their next solicitation for proposals,
they WILL welcome any RIGOROUS, RELIABLE confirmation *or* refutation of
these effects.

Happy Gravitons..

Best Regards,
Colin Quinney


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 25 23:06:45 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:59:03 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Subject: Fran De Aquino' paper update (physics/0109060)
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0109060

The paper "A Possibility of Gravity Control in Luminescent Materials" is updated by a new motor design of 7KW output.

Regards, hamdi

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 26 03:32:32 2001
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Message-ID: <3BD93079.88C7640A austininstruments.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:44:25 -0500
From: John Fields <jfields austininstruments.com>
Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc.
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> This bacon and eggs walk into a bar after a long day of being,
> well, bacon and eggs.
> 
> They walk up to the bartender and ask for a beer. The
> bartender takes one look at them and says, "Sorry, fellas, we
> don't serve breakfast here."


---
These three ropes go into a bar and order a beer.  The bartender takes
one look at them and says, "We don't serve ropes in here."  They do the
same thing at a few more bars and get the same treatment, and on leaving
the last bar one of the ropes has an idea.  "I know what!" he says, "why
don't one of you guys unravel some of my fibers and the other one tie me
into a knot and we'll try another bar and see what happens?"  So they
do, and when they go into the next bar and order a beer the bartender
refuses to serve the first two and, looking suspiciously at the third,
says, "Aren't you a rope?"  To which the third repies, "Nope, I'm a
frayed knot!"  
---

John Fields

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 26 07:25:41 2001
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Uggg !   <g>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 26 08:06:06 2001
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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
To: <cay electricspacecraft.com>
Cc: <war123 aztec.asu.edu>, <cay@electricspacecraft.com>,
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        "Doug Marett" <doug.marett sympatico.ca>,
        <newelectrogravity yahoogroups.com>,
        <gravitycontrolresearch egroups.com>,
        "Marc G. Millis" <Marc.G.Millis lerc.nasa.gov>,
        <Peter.J.Ouzts grc.nasa.gov>, <Jean.M.Schuerger@grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Fw: From the NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:58:37 -0400
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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To All,

The following important message is from NASA.

Please pass this message on to all appropriate Email Lists or News =
Groups not CC'd here. (CC's are listed above, and below.).

To see some videos of newer electrokinetic-type advances, see:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifters.htm
http://www.tdimension.com/

To join the "Lifters" Email Group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lifters=20

Best Regards,
Colin Quinney
Toronto.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Marc G. Millis=20
To: greenglow yahoogroups.com=20
Cc: Peter.J.Ouzts grc.nasa.gov ; Jean.M.Schuerger@lerc.nasa.gov ; Colin =
Quinney ; junbug hiwaay.net ; jcameron@tdimension.com ; =
jrusek swiftorganicpropellants.com ; rusek@purdue.edu ; =
Lifters yahoogroups.com ; Hec031@yahoo.com ; =
t.pourpoint swiftenterprises.net ; John Schnurer=20
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:51 AM
Subject: From the NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project



I've received many inquires recently about variations of the =
Beifield-Brown effect. To help clarify the situation and to inform this =
discussion group on some important aspects of research sought by the =
NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project, I decided to post this.

This post covers:
- Beifield-Brown and its variants
- Notice about next BPP Solicitation
- Important evaluation points
- New roles


Before I get to the details, please note the following statement =
regarding a temporary lack of access to the NASA Glenn web sites (where =
many details about the BPP reside):
------------------
Public access to NASA Glenn Research Center's Web site is not =
operational at this time. Following the terrorist attacks of September =
11 and the resulting actions by the United States, NASA Glenn is taking =
steps to ensure its approach to dissemination of information about the =
Center is appropriate. There have been no specific threats against NASA =
Glenn; however, Center management has directed that steps be taken to =
ensure all Glenn Web sites are suitable for public access. These steps =
are consistent with actions taken by other federal agencies and are =
considered prudent as safety is our number one concern--the safety of =
our Center, our employees and the communities that surround us. =
Individual Web sites will come back on line as the information within =
them is determined to be suitable for public access. We apologize for =
the inconvenience.
------------------

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
REGARDING BEIFIELD-BROWN AND ITS VARIANTS:

The NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project is aware of a variety =
of work on "asymmetrical capacitors," or other variations on a theme of =
the Beifield-Brown effect. At least three different groups are pursuing =
this that I know of. None of these groups has published peer-reviewed =
rigorous literature on their observations or methods.

Currently the NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project is not =
sponsoring any of this work.

In our next solicitation for research proposals, we welcome proposals =
for RIGOROUS, RELIABLE confirmation or refutation of these effects.

Anyone planning to do research into variations of the Biefield-Brown =
effect should at least be familiar with the following paper:

Talley,R.L., (Veritay Technology, Inc. East Amherst NY), Twenty First =
Century Propulsion Concept, PL-TR-91-3009, Final Report for the period =
Feb 89 to July 90, on Contract FO4611-89-C-0023, Phillips Laboratory, =
Air Force Systems Command, Edwards AFB, CA 93523-5000, (1991).

This 94 page report describes experimental tests of the Biefield-Brown =
Effect where the claimed propulsive effect was not experimentally found. =
Some anomalous effects were noticed during high voltage switching. These =
tests did not cover operation over 14kV, nor operation with leaky =
capacitors.

To get paper copies of US Government reports, contact:=20
National Technical Information Service (NTIS)=20
Technology Administration=20
U.S. Department of Commerce=20
Springfield, VA 22161=20
Order Desk: (703) 605-6000=20
Fax: (703) 605-6900=20
(http://www.ntis.gov).

There is a modest per-page fee associated with copies. You may also seek =
copies through good technical libraries. Please do not request copies =
through the NASA BPP Project. We do not have the staff to handle library =
requests.


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
NOTICE ABOUT NEXT BPP SOLICITATION:

The next call for proposals has been delayed. The next call is currently =
being planned and is tentatively scheduled to open in the 1st Quarter of =
2002. Future calls for proposals will be posted on the BPP Project web =
site: (http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/), and there will be a 3-month =
window for accepting submissions.


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
IMPORTANT PROPOSAL EVALUATION POINTS

This is crucially important for anyone wishing to conduct research under =
the BPP Project. Pay particular attention to this selection criteria =
that will be used in BPP Research solicitations:
#8: Reliability - Probability that the task will result in knowledge =
that will be a reliable foundation for future research decisions. ***A =
zero score on this criteria will fail the whole proposal.***

Also be advised that technical feasibility is not judged in the proposal =
reviews. For the kind of fundamental investigations sought by this =
project, it is too difficult to reliably determine technical feasibility =
during a proposal review. The burden of addressing feasibility, via a =
discriminating test, is a required part of the proposed research task. =
Instead of judging technical feasibility, proposal reviewers are asked =
to judge if the task is based on credible foundations and leading to a =
result that other researchers will consider as a meaningful and reliable =
conclusion on which to base future investigations. This includes seeking =
tasks that can reliably demonstrate that certain research approaches are =
not feasible. This posture of judging credibility rather than =
pre-judging correctness, is one of the ways that the BPP Project is open =
to visionary concepts while still sustaining credibility.

A listing of all the criteria is posted in the the BPP Project Plan:
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/BPP_Project_Plan_FY2001.htm

The criteria will also be explained in the formal solicitation for =
research proposals when it goes out.


Please do not ignore, as others have, that the RELIABILITY of the =
research is paramount; even more important than if a "breakthrough" is =
perceived. This is because a breakthrough is not a breakthrough until it =
is REAL.=20


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
NEW ROLES

The new BPP Project Manager is Peter Ouzts.

Marc Millis is taking a break from Project Management to return to =
research.

Please direct all future questions/requests to Peter =
(Peter.J.Ouzts grc.nasa.gov) or to Jean Schuerger, QSS Group, Inc., =
Document Control Specialist for the Breakthrough Propulsion Physics =
(BPP) Project (Jean.M.Schuerger grc.nasa.gov).

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D


We hope this helps you in your endeavors.



Marc Millis
Due to the overwhelming number of inquiries that I regularly receive, I =
regret that I am seldom able to answer additional individual inquires.=20


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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The following important message is from =

NASA.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Please pass this message on to&nbsp;all =
appropriate=20
Email Lists or News&nbsp;Groups not&nbsp;CC'd here.&nbsp;(CC's are =
listed above,=20
and below.).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To see some videos of&nbsp;newer=20
electrokinetic-type advances, s</FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>ee:</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><BR><A href=3D"http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifters.htm"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3>http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifters.htm</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><A =
href=3D"http://www.tdimension.com/">http://www.tdimension.com/</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>To join the "Lifters" Email Group:</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lifters"><STRONG>http://groups.yaho=
o.com/group/Lifters</STRONG></A><STRONG>=20
</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Best Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Colin Quinney</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Toronto.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3DMarc.G.Millis lerc.nasa.gov =
href=3D"mailto:Marc.G.Millis lerc.nasa.gov">Marc=20
G. Millis</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dgreenglow yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:greenglow yahoogroups.com">greenglow@yahoogroups.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3DPeter.J.Ouzts grc.nasa.gov=20
href=3D"mailto:Peter.J.Ouzts grc.nasa.gov">Peter.J.Ouzts@grc.nasa.gov</A>=
 ; <A=20
title=3DJean.M.Schuerger lerc.nasa.gov=20
href=3D"mailto:Jean.M.Schuerger lerc.nasa.gov">Jean.M.Schuerger@lerc.nasa=
.gov</A>=20
; <A title=3Dcrquin home.com href=3D"mailto:crquin@home.com">Colin =
Quinney</A> ; <A=20
title=3Djunbug hiwaay.net =
href=3D"mailto:junbug hiwaay.net">junbug@hiwaay.net</A> ;=20
<A title=3Djcameron tdimension.com=20
href=3D"mailto:jcameron tdimension.com">jcameron@tdimension.com</A> ; <A =

title=3Djrusek swiftorganicpropellants.com=20
href=3D"mailto:jrusek swiftorganicpropellants.com">jrusek@swiftorganicpro=
pellants.com</A>=20
; <A title=3Drusek purdue.edu =
href=3D"mailto:rusek purdue.edu">rusek@purdue.edu</A>=20
; <A title=3DLifters yahoogroups.com=20
href=3D"mailto:Lifters yahoogroups.com">Lifters@yahoogroups.com</A> ; <A =

title=3DHec031 yahoo.com =
href=3D"mailto:Hec031 yahoo.com">Hec031@yahoo.com</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dt.pourpoint swiftenterprises.net=20
href=3D"mailto:t.pourpoint swiftenterprises.net">t.pourpoint@swiftenterpr=
ises.net</A>=20
; <A title=3Dherman antioch-college.edu=20
href=3D"mailto:herman antioch-college.edu">John Schnurer</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 26, 2001 9:51 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> From the NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics=20
Project</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>I've received many inquires recently about variations of the=20
Beifield-Brown effect. To help clarify the situation and to inform this=20
discussion group on some important aspects of research sought by the =
NASA=20
Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project, I decided to post =
this.<BR><BR>This=20
post covers:<BR>- Beifield-Brown and its variants<BR>- Notice about next =
BPP=20
Solicitation<BR>- Important evaluation points<BR>- New =
roles<BR><BR><BR>Before I=20
get to the details, please note the following statement regarding a =
temporary=20
lack of access to the NASA Glenn web sites (where many details about the =
BPP=20
reside):<BR>------------------<BR><I>Public access to NASA Glenn =
Research=20
Center's Web site is not operational at this time. Following the =
terrorist=20
attacks of September 11 and the resulting actions by the United States, =
NASA=20
Glenn is taking steps to ensure its approach to dissemination of =
information=20
about the Center is appropriate. There have been no specific threats =
against=20
NASA Glenn; however, Center management has directed that steps be taken =
to=20
ensure all Glenn Web sites are suitable for public access. These steps =
are=20
consistent with actions taken by other federal agencies and are =
considered=20
prudent as safety is our number one concern--the safety of our Center, =
our=20
employees and the communities that surround us. Individual Web sites =
will come=20
back on line as the information within them is determined to be suitable =
for=20
public access. We apologize for the=20
inconvenience.<BR></I>------------------<BR><BR><I>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR></I>REGARDIN=
G=20
BEIFIELD-BROWN AND ITS VARIANTS:<BR><BR>The NASA Breakthrough Propulsion =
Physics=20
Project is aware of a variety of work on "asymmetrical capacitors," or =
other=20
variations on a theme of the Beifield-Brown effect. At least three =
different=20
groups are pursuing this that I know of. None of these groups has =
published=20
peer-reviewed rigorous literature on their observations or=20
methods.<BR><BR>Currently the NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics =
Project is=20
not sponsoring any of this work.<BR><BR>In our next solicitation for =
research=20
proposals, we welcome proposals for RIGOROUS, RELIABLE confirmation or=20
refutation of these effects.<BR><BR>Anyone planning to do research into=20
variations of the Biefield-Brown effect should at least be familiar with =
the=20
following paper:<BR><BR>Talley,R.L., (Veritay Technology, Inc. East =
Amherst NY),=20
<I>Twenty First Century Propulsion Concept</I>, PL-TR-91-3009, Final =
Report for=20
the period Feb 89 to July 90, on Contract FO4611-89-C-0023, Phillips =
Laboratory,=20
Air Force Systems Command, Edwards AFB, CA 93523-5000, =
(1991).<BR><BR>This 94=20
page report describes experimental tests of the Biefield-Brown Effect =
where the=20
claimed propulsive effect was not experimentally found. Some anomalous =
effects=20
were noticed during high voltage switching. These tests did not cover =
operation=20
over 14kV, nor operation with leaky capacitors.<BR><BR>To get paper =
copies of US=20
Government reports, contact: <BR><?paraindent><?param =
right,left>National=20
Technical Information Service (NTIS) <BR>Technology Administration =
<BR>U.S.=20
Department of Commerce <BR>Springfield, VA 22161 <BR>Order Desk: (703) =
605-6000=20
<BR>Fax: (703) 605-6900 =
<BR>(http://www.ntis.gov).<BR><?/paraindent><BR>There is=20
a modest per-page fee associated with copies. You may also seek copies =
through=20
good technical libraries. Please do not request copies through the NASA =
BPP=20
Project. We do not have the staff to handle library=20
requests.<BR><BR><BR><I>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR></I>NOTICE ABOUT NEXT BPP=20
SOLICITATION:<BR><BR>The next call for proposals has been delayed. The =
next call=20
is currently being planned and is tentatively scheduled to open in the =
1st=20
Quarter of 2002. Future calls for proposals will be posted on the BPP =
Project=20
web site: (<U><?color><?param =
0000,0000,00FF>http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/<?/color></U>),=20
and there will be a 3-month window for accepting=20
submissions.<BR><BR><BR><I>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR></I>IMPORTANT PROPOSAL=20
EVALUATION POINTS<BR><BR>This is crucially important for anyone wishing =
to=20
conduct research under the BPP Project. Pay particular attention to this =

selection criteria that will be used in BPP Research =
solicitations:<BR>#8:=20
Reliability - Probability that the task will result in knowledge that =
will be a=20
reliable foundation for future research decisions. ***A zero score on =
this=20
criteria will fail the whole proposal.***<BR><BR>Also be advised that =
technical=20
feasibility is not judged in the proposal reviews. For the kind of =
fundamental=20
investigations sought by this project, it is too difficult to reliably =
determine=20
technical feasibility during a proposal review. The burden of addressing =

feasibility, via a discriminating test, is a required part of the =
proposed=20
research task. Instead of judging technical feasibility, proposal =
reviewers are=20
asked to judge if the task is based on credible foundations and leading =
to a=20
result that other researchers will consider as a meaningful and reliable =

conclusion on which to base future investigations. This includes seeking =
tasks=20
that can reliably demonstrate that certain research approaches are not =
feasible.=20
This posture of judging credibility rather than pre-judging correctness, =
is one=20
of the ways that the BPP Project is open to visionary concepts while =
still=20
sustaining credibility.<BR><BR>A listing of all the criteria is posted =
in the=20
the BPP Project=20
Plan:<BR>http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/BPP_Project_Plan_FY2001.htm<BR><=
BR>The=20
criteria will also be explained in the formal solicitation for research=20
proposals when it goes out.<BR><BR><BR>Please do not ignore, as others =
have,=20
that the RELIABILITY of the research is paramount; even more important =
than if a=20
"breakthrough" is perceived. This is because a breakthrough is not a=20
breakthrough until it is REAL.=20
<BR><BR><BR><I>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR></I>NEW ROLES<BR><BR>The new BPP=20
Project Manager is Peter Ouzts.<BR><BR>Marc Millis is taking a break =
from=20
Project Management to return to research.<BR><BR>Please direct all =
future=20
questions/requests to Peter (Peter.J.Ouzts grc.nasa.gov) or to Jean =
Schuerger,=20
QSS Group, Inc., Document Control Specialist for the Breakthrough =
Propulsion=20
Physics (BPP) Project=20
(Jean.M.Schuerger grc.nasa.gov).<BR><BR><I>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR><BR><BR></I>We=20
hope this helps you in your endeavors.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Marc Millis<BR>Due =
to the=20
overwhelming number of inquiries that I regularly receive, I regret that =
I am=20
seldom able to answer additional individual inquires. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>---<BR>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.<BR>Checked by AVG =

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 26 08:48:09 2001
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Fran De Aquino' paper update (physics/0109060)
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Is this a different effect than the low frequency EM effect he proposed
earlier? I have a problem with that one because: 1) the theory has a step
not unlike "then a miracle occurs" and then goes on. I refer to the step 
where he jumps from mass changes to his equation. 2) His experimental
data doesn't fit his theory, and quite blatently so! 

Perhaps someone can explain it to me.

He also makes claims that are unsupported even by his theory. 

On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, hamdi ucar wrote:

> http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0109060
> 
> The paper "A Possibility of Gravity Control in Luminescent Materials" is updated by a new motor design of 7KW output.
> 
> Regards, hamdi

This paper seems to be based on his last one.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 26 13:58:01 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:53:21 +0300
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I found these subsequent releases from Pravda.

Raw material is quartz.

"Having thickness of 15-20 microns the film can stand the
 pressure of 8000 kg on 1 square mm."

Quite impressing, isn't it? :)


Regards, hamdi ucar


13:41 2001-07-26
7 FUNDAMENTAL DISCOVERIES OF RUSSIAN SCIENTISTS WILL
NOT LEAD TO RESHUFFLES AMONG WORLD POLITICAL FORCES

http://english.pravda.ru/society/2001/07/26/11067.html

17:01 2001-07-26
RUSSIAN SCIENTISTS CREATE MATERIALS WITH
UNKNOWN PROPERTIES

http://english.pravda.ru/culture/2001/07/26/11094.html


17:25 2001-07-26
FOREIGN COMPANIES SHOW ENORMOUS INTEREST IN THE 
DISCOVERIES OF RUSSIAN SCIENTISTS

http://english.pravda.ru/culture/2001/07/26/11096.html


And finally BS from president of American Computer Company:

18:05 2001-08-20
DR. JACK A. SHULMAN: DR. SOBOLEV HAD ACCESS TO A UFO

http://english.pravda.ru/letters/2001/08/20/12885.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 27 11:41:13 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Oct 26, 2001
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:56:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 26 Oct 01   Washington, DC

1. MISSILE DEFENSE: THE 1972 ABM TREATY STILL STANDS IN THE WAY. 
On Monday, it looked like a sure thing.  A front-page headline in
the Washington Post read, "Bush and Putin Edge Closer to Missile
Deal."  The deal presumably was that, in spite of the ABM treaty, 
Russia would allow us to build a missile defense if we would
agree to major cuts in nuclear arsenals.  By Tuesday, the Post
was acknowledging on page 19 that "Missile Pact Still Divides
U.S., Russia."  This morning, the Post headline was: "Missile
Defense Tests Are Put Off," at least until after the scheduled 3-
day visit of Putin starting Nov. 12, as WN predicted two months
ago.  The New York Times quotes an administration official as
explaining that there was "no need to do something provocative."

2. SCIENCE ADVISOR: JOHN H. MARBURGER III IS CONFIRMED BY SENATE.
Nominated by President Bush in June (WN 22 Jun 01), Marburger's  
confirmation was assured even as the nation faced a technological
threat unlike any other in our history.  With a PhD in Physics
from Stanford (1962) and experience as a physics professor,
university president, and Director of Brookhaven National Lab,
there was never a question of whether Marburger is qualified to
serve as the President's science advisor and head of OSTP.

3. MARS ODYSSEY: CONVERSION OF UNITS DIDN'T SEEM TO BE A PROBLEM.
The first Mars probe since the multiple disasters of '99 is
expected to search for evidence of water on the barren planet.

4. ALTERNATIVE READING: TWO VERY DIFFERENT BOOKS DEFEND SCIENCE.
When John Diamond, a popular columnist for the London Times, died
after a seven-year fight with cancer, he left six chapters of "an
uncomplimentary book about complementary medicine."  Fortunately,
his unfinished book has been published as "Snake Oil" (Vintage,
London, 2001).  As a very public cancer victim, Diamond had been
targeted by the purveyors of alternative medicine with promises
of miracles.  But to the end, he never lost his sense of humor,
nor his confidence in the simple logic of the scientific method. 
Steven Milloy, publisher of JunkScience.com, has also written a
book exposing health scams: "Junk Science Judo" (Cato Institute,
Washington,2001), but Milloy focuses his ire on gross abuses of
statistics to support unscientific claims.  Many of his targets
are familiar to readers of WN: baloney statistics on cell phones,
alar, low-level nuclear waste, power-line EMF, radon etc.  I
found myself getting uncomfortable, however, when he attacked
studies that claim second-hand smoke is a serious health problem,
or that gun locks save children's lives.  It was the choice of 
targets in such a target-rich field that bothered me.  We should
never tolerate sloppy science, and the evidence in these cases is
sloppy to say the least.  Still, I could not bring myself to feel
sorry for the gun owners, much less the tobacco companies.  
                              
THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. 
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 27 13:43:13 2001
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>"The threat of nuclear terrorism is closing in upon us . . . No 'Star 
>Wars' system ... no matter how technically advanced, no matter how many 
>trillions of dollars was poured into it ... can protect us from even a 
>single terrorist bomb. Not one weapon in our vast arsenal can shield us 
>from a nuclear weapon delivered in a sailboat or a Piper Cub or a suitcase 
>or a Ryder rental truck. Not a penny of the 273
>billion dollars a year we spend on so-called defense can actually
>defend us against a terrorist bomb.

I sympathize with the author's viewpoint, but this is technically 
incorrect. Actually, the U.S. has invested millions of dollars in improving 
Russian nuclear bomb storage facilities, inventory systems, and in helping 
the Russians disassemble and destroy weapons. This money has been well 
spent. Most experts believe it has greatly reduced the threat of nuclear 
terrorism. They agree that more needs to be spent, and more U.S. experts 
should go to Russia and assist directly. I think the Japanese should 
contribute. Former Georgia Senator Sam Nun is an expert in military funding 
and arms control issues, and he has written several good articles about 
this issue.

The threat cannot be eliminated, but it can be greatly reduced by technical 
means. Political & economic solutions are also important. I do not think 
any of the "Star Wars" projects address the problem, because it is far 
easier and hundreds of millions of dollars cheaper to smuggle a bomb than 
it is to launch one on a missile. The U.S. military would track a missile 
and retaliate, presumably with nuclear weapons, whereas there is no way 
anyone could tell who was responsible for the explosion of a smuggled bomb. 
The evidence would be destroyed, although the bomb fallout signature might 
tell whether the device came from the Russian arsenal, or the Chinese, U.S. 
or Pakistani arsenal. The latter would be inefficient, and easy to 
recognize, according to some sources. I do not think Bin Laden or any other 
terrorist could build a bomb with stolen Pu.

Bin Laden says God told him he has a sacred obligation to acquire nuclear 
weapons, and published rumors in the Times (U.K.) say he has either has a 
bomb or some "nuclear material" from Pakistan.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 27 14:08:39 2001
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Subject: Fw: [jlnlabs] story on coming oil crash
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http://www.runningonempty.org/oilcrash.htm


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RunningOnEmpty2

GLOBAL EXHAUSTION OF OIL AND GAS WELLS=20

About   20,000 messages about global oil and gas depletion were posted   =
and archived in the EnergyResources and (original) RunningOnEmpty forum =
from March 2000 to July 2001. The latter forum is now in use for VIP =
conferencing about the energy decline. This forum continues the general =
RunningOnEmpty discussion.=20


Authoritative data from the oil industry indicates that from about 2009 =
on, there will be a permanent 3% per year decline of output from the =
world's now-emptying global oil fields.=20


Oil is our transportation and industrial mechanization. Also, there are =
500,000 different by-products of oil.=20


North American natural gas is in serious trouble too: much of it is used =
in power generation plants. They provide the electricity we use for =
computers, traffic lights, street lights and industrial machinery, home =
heating, and businesses. Natural gas is the crucial raw material for =
producing fertilizers for crops (our food supply.)   A chilling =
prediction of a North American gas/electricty grid crash, by energy =
specialist, Richard C. Duncan, Ph.D. is viewable at RunningOnEmpty.org.=20


Calculations show that alternative sources of energy are severely =
inadequate and inflexible. The world's 11,000 airliners cannot run on =
nuclear, or coal or windmills. And the alternatives would cost billions, =
require land, take years, and require ...fuel.=20


It seems that from now on, energy scarcity will bring major global =
recession, food shortages, fighting over resources, and (literally) =
billions of human deaths.=20


We sent 1,400 emails to inform the media and US/UK politicians, =
co-signed by 60 members including energy industry specialists. The =
reaction: disbelief.=20


We're mostly preparing ourselves, rather than expecting to change a =
world that seems naturally slow and reluctant to comprehend such a huge, =
shocking reality.=20


Bruce Thomson=20
Moderator=20


---
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><TT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.runningonempty.org/oilcrash.htm">http://www.runningone=
mpty.org/oilcrash.htm</A><BR><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></TT></DIV>
<DIV><TT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><TT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RunningOnEmpty2">http://groups.yaho=
o.com/group/RunningOnEmpty2</A></FONT></TT></DIV>
<DIV><TT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><TT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">GLOBAL EXHAUSTION OF OIL AND GAS =
WELLS=20
</FONT></DIV>
<P>
<P>About&nbsp;&nbsp; 20,000 messages about global oil and gas depletion =
were=20
posted&nbsp;&nbsp; and archived in the EnergyResources and (original)=20
RunningOnEmpty forum from March 2000 to July 2001. The latter forum is =
now in=20
use for VIP conferencing about the energy decline. This forum continues =
the=20
general RunningOnEmpty discussion.=20
<P>
<P>Authoritative data from the oil industry indicates that from about =
2009 on,=20
there will be a permanent 3% per year decline of output from the world's =

now-emptying global oil fields.=20
<P>
<P>Oil is our transportation and industrial mechanization. Also, there =
are=20
500,000 different by-products of oil.=20
<P>
<P>North American natural gas is in serious trouble too: much of it is =
used in=20
power generation plants. They provide the electricity we use for =
computers,=20
traffic lights, street lights and industrial machinery, home heating, =
and=20
businesses. Natural gas is the crucial raw material for producing =
fertilizers=20
for crops (our food supply.)&nbsp;&nbsp; A chilling prediction of a =
North=20
American gas/electricty grid crash, by energy specialist, Richard C. =
Duncan,=20
Ph.D. is viewable at RunningOnEmpty.org.=20
<P>
<P>Calculations show that alternative sources of energy are severely =
inadequate=20
and inflexible. The world's 11,000 airliners cannot run on nuclear, or =
coal or=20
windmills. And the alternatives would cost billions, require land, take =
years,=20
and require ...fuel.=20
<P>
<P>It seems that from now on, energy scarcity will bring major global =
recession,=20
food shortages, fighting over resources, and (literally) billions of =
human=20
deaths.=20
<P>
<P>We sent 1,400 emails to inform the media and US/UK politicians, =
co-signed by=20
60 members including energy industry specialists. The reaction: =
disbelief.=20
<P>
<P>We're mostly preparing ourselves, rather than expecting to change a =
world=20
that seems naturally slow and reluctant to comprehend such a huge, =
shocking=20
reality.=20
<P>
<P>Bruce Thomson <BR>Moderator </P>
<P><BR>---<BR>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.<BR>Checked by AVG=20
anti-virus system (<A=20
href=3D"http://www.grisoft.com">http://www.grisoft.com</A>).<BR>Version: =
6.0.291 /=20
Virus Database: 156 - Release Date: 10/25/2001</P></TT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C15F09.7F22DC60--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 27 14:18:25 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: Off topic but important
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Some of the technical issues of the nuclear threat are described in a good 
article here:

http://www.tnr.com/110501/easterbrook110501.html

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 27 17:05:12 2001
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Nuclear Blast Mapper
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/sfeature/mapablast.html

State Maps and Information for Nuclear Survival
http://www.webpal.org/list.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Off topic but important


Some of the technical issues of the nuclear threat are described in a good
article here:

http://www.tnr.com/110501/easterbrook110501.html

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 27 23:24:31 2001
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 <5.0.2.1.2.20011027171701.02b2ede0 pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:21:43 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Anthrax deployment idea?
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No, I'm not giving anyone "ideas" - I'm sure the wrong people have 
already thought of it (sometimes called "The First Rule of 
Inventing").

What would happen if everyone was suddenly afraid to handle paper 
money? What would that do to the economy? Do we have a response ready 
for such a thing? Some of us are laready a little paranoid about our 
mail.

In an X-Files story line a while back, the bad guys had some paper 
money salted with something nasty. This seems to me to be the best 
way to deploy an anthrax attack. Remember when a few years ago, and 
maybe still, that money usually tests positive for cocaine because 
people snort the powder with bills, and the bills all distribute and 
rub against each other in circulation? Instead of mailing your 
payload which leaves a fairly narrow distribution path, they could 
drop little batches of bills here and there for people to find, like 
in public areas in urban regions, airports, etc. Better than passing 
it out in transactions directly. The terrorist might even be able to 
survive the deployment with protection and care when opening sealed 
packs of the bills and then leaving the area. I was reminded of the 
idea when I was stopped at a traffic light and saw a bill in the 
weeds on the median right beside me. I opened the door and grabbed 
the money. So would anyone. <cough>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 28 13:20:00 2001
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Subject: Re: Anthrax deployment idea?
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On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> No, I'm not giving anyone "ideas" - I'm sure the wrong people have 
> already thought of it (sometimes called "The First Rule of 
> Inventing").
>
> What would happen if everyone was suddenly afraid to handle paper money? 
> What would that do to the economy? Do we have a response ready for such
> a thing? Some of us are laready a little paranoid about our mail. 

Shawn Carlson of SAS started a forum for trying to predict the next
terrorist techniques.  See the Amateur Scientist site, http://www.sas.org
It's hard to resist coming up with ingenious things and then discussing
them publicly.  Some of them are so simple yet so effective that it might
be better to discuss the implications on a closed forum.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 28 15:21:13 2001
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Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:19:56 -0800
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> No, I'm not giving anyone "ideas" - I'm sure the wrong people have
> already thought of it (sometimes called "The First Rule of
> Inventing").
> 
> What would happen if everyone was suddenly afraid to handle paper
> money?

You mean, like, cash?

Then only bankers and druggers would be the "postal" indicator.  I never
see my money.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 28 15:26:08 2001
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Check out the depth variation on these quakes:

http://quake.wr.usgs.gov/recenteqs/Maps/Los_Angeles_full.html

Looks like Monteverde can get some real body surfing action soon.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 28 19:59:13 2001
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At 07:27 PM 10/28/01 -0800, you wrote:
>Check out the depth variation on these quakes:
>
>http://quake.wr.usgs.gov/recenteqs/Maps/Los_Angeles_full.html
>
>Looks like Monteverde can get some real body surfing action soon.
>
>Terry


Terry:  venturing an attempt at earthquake prediction?

I grew up in the San Francisco bay aria and I can tell you that this type 
of activity is rather normal.  Periodic shifting of the under crust is 
actually a good thing.  It relieves the stress.  Gradually.  Safely.

The locals likely wont even have felt anything asside from the 3.7  (cheap 
Sunday morning thrill)





_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 29 03:59:04 2001
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger suite224.net>
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 4:34 AM
Subject: Re: Conclusions from the Albatross Experiment


> Frank.
>
> The null results of the Albatross Experiment indicate that it is impossible to
couple
> to the ~ 3.3E18 Gamma, Time-Dilated Gravity Field  of the 1.0E25 Hz fundamental
> particles to create an "antigravity field", unless one can come up with a way to
> achieve energies on the order of ~ 1.0E24 ev (at least twelve orders of magnitude
> above the energy proposed for the Supercollider!  :-)
>
> OTOH, it might be possible to "shield" one mass against the gravity field of
another,
> or orient the nuclei of a mass in such a manner that will make it "weightless".
>
> IOW, I conclude that the relativistically slowed clocks of the quarks "see" each
> other's Time-Dilated Field which
> results in the weak (magnetic) force that we call Gravity.
>
> Thanks for your efforts.
>
> Fred
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 29 05:13:00 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <152.32d7110.290eaf11 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:09:37 EST
Subject: What is the flashpoint of regular water?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I am not sure if the title is actually phrased correctly - however I would be 
most grateful if someone could answer the following question.

At what temperature does regular water de-combine into oxygen and hydrogen?  
What happens above this point at 100 or even 1,000 times this specific 
temperature?

Regards, 
Chris 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 29 05:31:30 2001
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Subject: Re: What is the flashpoint of regular water?
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On Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 08:09:37AM -0500, Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:
> I am not sure if the title is actually phrased correctly - however I woul=
d be=20
> most grateful if someone could answer the following question.
>=20
> At what temperature does regular water de-combine into oxygen and hydroge=
n? =20
> What happens above this point at 100 or even 1,000 times this specific=20
> temperature?

It doesn't does it?  It becomes water gas.  You'll need an electrolysis
process, static or resonant, to split the molecule.

Joe

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 29 11:02:42 2001
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Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:59:25 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: JCF3 Conference
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Greetings all. I have returned from the Third Meeting of the Japan
CF-Research Society, October 25 - 26, 2001, at Yokohama National
University. The schedule and Abstracts were published on the web, and there
were no surprises, so I suppose there is no rush to report on the
conference here. I will review my notes and tapes and post something this
week.

Here are some news items and impressions unrelated to the formal conference
presentations.

On October 24 I spent a few hours visiting Prof. K. Ota and one of his
students, M. Fujii, at the university. See Abstract JCF3-2 at:

http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/file/jcf3abstract.pdf

By the way, people who cannot read the abstracts might try installing the
latest version of Acrobat. One of my old computers with Acrobat 4.0 cannot
read the document, but a later version of the English version of Acrobat
can read most pages. For those who despair of reading it at all, I brought
back four copies. Contact me for one.

Overall it was low-key but good in places. About 50 people attended,
roughly the same as last year. Mitsubishi again presented the most
impressive results. Upper management will not allow the researchers to
publish extensive graphs and data in conference proceedings or the on-line
JCF collection of viewgraphs. Management wants them to publish in
peer-reviewed, high status journals only. Last year they submitted a paper
to Nature, which was rejected, needless to say. This year they wised up and
submitted a comprehensive 12-page paper to the Japanese Journal of Applied
Physics (JJAP). They say it includes the latest versions of most graphs and
tables they show during their presentations. They expect it will be
accepted. JJAP has published several CF papers, including at least two this
year, so I agree it is likely to accept this one. It should be published
sometime between December and February. I am not sure whether this will be
the English or the Japanese edition of JJAP, or both. I will ask Iwamura.

I heard all of the experimental papers. I skipped the theory session on
first afternoon, because I cannot begin to understand the Abstracts and
because 3:00 p.m. in Japan is 2:00 a.m. in the morning in Atlanta, when
jet-lag kicks in with a vengeance, and you can spend five minutes trying to
remember how to write a check.

This year and last year the only other non-Japanese participants were A.
Arapi, who is studying at Iwate University (Abstract JCF3-13), and F.
Celani (JCF3-5).

Celani reported some fascinating and excellent results from both the CF
research and the bioremediation project being formed around the Ralstonia
detusculanense bacteria he discovered which has invaded most of the world's
heavy water supplies. The two subjects are more closely intertwined than
you might think. Celani presents good evidence that Ralstonia has been
responsible for much undetected contamination and many failed experiments.
People do not expect to find creatures invading 99.9% pure heavy water,
especially creatures that eat mercury and carry it around in their guts.
You kill all but one of them, and few days later the surface of a cathode
is covered thick with them, munching away at the metal, blocking loading.
After carefully cleaning up the heavy water with triple distillation,
Celani observed a rather spectacular heat burst with a Pd wire, that
"glowed white hot" and reached the melting point of Pd in a few spots, with
very little input power. On the bioremediation front, Ralstonia recently
made the front pages of the national economic newspaper and the Italian
version of Scientific American, with glowing praise and prominent attention
in the headlines to "cold fusion researchers." The head of the government
authorized an immediate infusion of funds, to be followed by a large
project, some of which will go to cold fusion per se. I am concerned that
Celani may be distracted from CF research, but he says he will not be, and
after all he is a physicist, not a biologist. The research team working on
Ralstonia is remarkably eclectic, including physicists, biologists and a
medical doctor.

I find it astounding that a bacteria has evolved so quickly and successful
to inhabit heavy water and metabolize heavy metals such as mercury and
uranium. Concentrated heavy water did not exist on earth until 1940, and
pools of heavy water are widely separated, unconnected to one-another, and
isolated, like the deep ocean volcanic vents, which also harbor exotic,
unique forms of life. Sometime after 1940, a single bacterium must have
fallen into a vat of heavy water, survived, adapted, and multiplied. As
Celani says, life is unstoppable and all-powerful. Perhaps terraforming
Mars would not be so difficult.

I will have a great deal more to report later.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 29 12:07:02 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Need help with x-ray diffraction terminology
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Someone who understands x-ray diffraction should please contact me. I need
assistance finishing up this paper by Shimokawa et al. about water
clusters. I have only a vague idea of what goniometers do, but more to the
point, I want to know how to use the jargon correctly. For example, I have
graphs with the y-axes labeled "intensity" and the x-axes labeled "2
theta." Intensity is self-evident, and I gather that theta is one of the
terms used in the standard equations, but how is it used in a sentence? I
found this sentence on the Internet, from The Materials Characterization
Lab (MCL) at Penn State University:

"Vertical theta-two theta goniometer with independent axes that can scan up
to 165 deg. two-theta for phase identification and quantification . . ."

Mizuno and I discussed this paper. The authors are revising the Japanese
version partly in response to my suggestions, and I will write another
English version soon. I may jump ahead of them and produce an inproved
English version version based on what *I* think a paper should say, with a
better description of the apparatus, etc. I am very bold stepping forth to
improve this paper, since I have not seen the apparatus and I have only the
vaguest notion of what it does.

Incidentally, the alltheweb.com has a new link to a search tool "for
scientific information only," http://www.scirus.com/, from Elsevier
Science. I just used it for the first time to locate that business about
goniometers, and it seems impressive.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 29 13:36:57 2001
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Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:41:35 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
cc: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
Subject: Algae and Bacteria Biology person ... NOT about biological war stuff
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	Dear Vo.,


	I would like to correspond with a person [s] who are interested in
and have background, hobby and-or amateur and-or unusual background in
growing and knowing Algae, fungus, lichen, mold, slime mold, benign
bacteria  preferred ... professional OK ....so long as they are not too
wrapped around the axel.   I am talking about APPLIED SCIENCES.

	I want to exploit biological energy methodologies.  I already have
some real world generalized reductions to practice and want to bring them
toward higher levels of utility.

	One example is-are electrolytic-electrochemical cells with
biological organisms contributing to the ongoing "renewal" of the
electrolytic system.

	Of course I would like to know about other work in the area.


			Thanks,


					J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 29 15:52:56 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: Tim Harwood  Address and Text
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	Dear Vo,

	Below is a section of text from Tim Harwood about his discoveries.

	I do not have an address for him.  In the 8th line down he writes
	".....that and AM leaves and cold trail in space.   ...."

	I would like to ask him what an AM is.

	If anyone can forward this letter to him, please.   I am not
asking anyone to compromise his privacy.  Just ask if he could drop a
quick note letting us know what "AM" is or means, please. 


	Tim Harwood's Text, below:


Now, normally current radiates heat into space, when polarity reversed
current sucks in ambient energy - actively, as opposed to conventional
thermoelectric systems, which are passive. The conversion is also 100%
efficient. This is because nature abhors a vacuum. When nature suddenly
finds a massive negative potential in space, ambient energy rushes in to
try and bring that region back up to 0 - or maybe 2.7k, the background
energy level of space. Since we are in orbit, there is a speculative
possibility that an AM leaves a cold trail in space. You also have to
understand, the greater the voltage used, the greater the negative
pressure gradient / potential created, hence the more ambient energy
rushes into your stator wires on the negative pulse created by the
magnets. 



		Thank you,
						John Herman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 29 20:05:53 2001
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Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:03:20 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: What is the flashpoint of regular water?
In-Reply-To: <152.32d7110.290eaf11 aol.com>
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At 08:09 AM 10/29/01 -0500, you wrote:

>I am not sure if the title is actually phrased correctly - however I would be
>most grateful if someone could answer the following question.
>
>At what temperature does regular water de-combine into oxygen and hydrogen?
>What happens above this point at 100 or even 1,000 times this specific
>temperature?


Wow:

I am not sure you can define a temperature for this type of change without 
considering pressure...

For example.  Water evaporates at ambient temperatures but does not boil 
until it reaches 100C   This is well and good at sea level (ambient 
pressure 1 bar) If the pressure is reduced you can boil water at a lower 
temperature.  Reduced to near zero and water boils at 25C  Hold it under 
pressure and maybe it doesn't boil until 125C

I think you will see the "flash point" have similar properties.



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 29 20:30:53 2001
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John,

I believe he is referring to the "Adams Motor".

Jon

John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Vo,
>
>         Below is a section of text from Tim Harwood about his discoveries.
>
>         I do not have an address for him.  In the 8th line down he writes
>         ".....that and AM leaves and cold trail in space.   ...."
>
>         I would like to ask him what an AM is.
>
>         If anyone can forward this letter to him, please.   I am not
> asking anyone to compromise his privacy.  Just ask if he could drop a
> quick note letting us know what "AM" is or means, please.
>
>         Tim Harwood's Text, below:
>
> Now, normally current radiates heat into space, when polarity reversed
> current sucks in ambient energy - actively, as opposed to conventional
> thermoelectric systems, which are passive. The conversion is also 100%
> efficient. This is because nature abhors a vacuum. When nature suddenly
> finds a massive negative potential in space, ambient energy rushes in to
> try and bring that region back up to 0 - or maybe 2.7k, the background
> energy level of space. Since we are in orbit, there is a speculative
> possibility that an AM leaves a cold trail in space. You also have to
> understand, the greater the voltage used, the greater the negative
> pressure gradient / potential created, hence the more ambient energy
> rushes into your stator wires on the negative pulse created by the
> magnets.
>
>                 Thank you,
>                                                 John Herman

--
Obstacles are the things that a person sees when he takes
his eyes off the goal.      - E. Joseph Cossman-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 06:21:12 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:17:40 EST
Subject: Re: What is the flashpoint of regular water?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 10/29/01 11:02:53 PM Central Standard Time, 
cjford1 yahoo.com writes:

< Wow:
 
 I am not sure you can define a temperature for this type of change without 
 considering pressure... 

OK, here is why I am asking.

Quite a while ago - on a fire rescue show ( Discover or Learning channel ) 
they discussed the ability of tremendous heat within a fire to convert the 
applied water into more fuel to the fire. The water reaches a specific 
temperature and breaks down into Hydrogen and Oxygen - making the fire much 
more destructive - therefore requiring the use of foam fire retardants. Do 
you see what I am getting at here. When an adequate heat source can be 
provided, electrolysis is not required.
Are there any firemen out there that would know this temperature range?

Best Regards,
Chris




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 06:59:53 2001
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Subject: T. Ohmori paper
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Current Topics in Electrochemistry, Vol. 7, (2000), pp. 101 - 118

Recent development in solid state nuclear transmutation occurring by the 
electrolysis

Tadayoshi Ohmori

Catalysis Research Center, Hokkaido Universit~ç Sapporo 060-0811, Japan

ABSTRACT

In the past few years the studies of the solid state nuclear reaction have 
made a rapid progress. In the course of these studies the term of “Nuclear 
Transmutation” is becoming essential in this field nowadays. Of these, a 
new technique of so called “Plasma Electrolysis” using tungsten and rhenium 
electrodes developed by ourselves allows the production of large amounts of 
excess heats of 100 W order, corresponding to 150-250 % of input energy. 
This technique offers a very promising prospect for the construction of a 
commercial level energy device utilizing nuclear transmutation. In this 
text, the technique of the plasma electrolysis and the results of the 
excess heat measurement and the analysis of product elements as well as the 
latest important results obtained in other laboratories will be described.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 08:38:45 2001
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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:36:00 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: What is the flashpoint of regular water?
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Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:

. . . tremendous heat within a fire to convert the
>applied water into more fuel to the fire. The water reaches a specific 
>temperature and breaks down into Hydrogen and Oxygen - making the fire 
>much more destructive - therefore requiring the use of foam fire retardants.

This does not add energy to the fire, although it may transfer energy from 
one place to another. It makes the fire more destructive because you can no 
longer use water to extinguish it, and foam fire retardants are not readily 
available in huge quantities, the way water is.

Here is something that used to baffle me about fire: why were sailors 
always so afraid of it, from the days of sailing ships to the present? They 
have unlimited quantities of water to extinguish it, provided only they do 
not bring so much aboard they sink the ship. (That has seldom -- or never 
-- happened, as far as I know.) Answers: when you lose the fight with the 
fire, you have no place to go. On land you evacuate the building and watch 
it burn. At sea you take to the lifeboats. Until 1912 there were seldom 
enough lifeboats, and they were useless in bad weather. On sailing ships 
they had no method of pumping huge amounts of water, and fire spreads 
quickly. On modern ships, fire often springs up in inaccessible places, 
between decks or in tightly packed cargo, or it occurs in the engine room 
and disables the pumps and electric power.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 09:25:52 2001
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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:47:59 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Need help with x-ray diffraction terminology
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Jed
	I believe a goniometer is an angle measuring instrument, a
protractor if you will. The two-theta is a measure of wavelength, from
Bragg reflection in a crystal. The X-ray diffraction setup irradiates a
sample with X-rays, usually from an X-ray tube, and the sample scatters
them, emitting characteristic radiation from the different elements in the
sample. these travel to a crystal, which Bragg relects them to a X-ray
detector. The sample is rotated at an angle theta, and the crystal is
rotated at an angle two-theta. The Bragg reflection selects a particular
wavelength and this is what is measured at the detector. The whole setup
measures the intensity of scattered radiation from the sample as a
function of wavelength. The equation of Bragg reflection is:

 n*lamda=2*d*sin(theta)

where lamda is the wavelength, and d is the atomic spacing betweens planes
of atoms in the crystal.

Hope this helps,
 Hank



On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Someone who understands x-ray diffraction should please contact me. I need
> assistance finishing up this paper by Shimokawa et al. about water
> clusters. I have only a vague idea of what goniometers do, but more to the
> point, I want to know how to use the jargon correctly. For example, I have
> graphs with the y-axes labeled "intensity" and the x-axes labeled "2
> theta." Intensity is self-evident, and I gather that theta is one of the
> terms used in the standard equations, but how is it used in a sentence? I
> found this sentence on the Internet, from The Materials Characterization
> Lab (MCL) at Penn State University:
> 
> "Vertical theta-two theta goniometer with independent axes that can scan up
> to 165 deg. two-theta for phase identification and quantification . . ."
> 
> Mizuno and I discussed this paper. The authors are revising the Japanese
> version partly in response to my suggestions, and I will write another
> English version soon. I may jump ahead of them and produce an inproved
> English version version based on what *I* think a paper should say, with a
> better description of the apparatus, etc. I am very bold stepping forth to
> improve this paper, since I have not seen the apparatus and I have only the
> vaguest notion of what it does.
> 
> Incidentally, the alltheweb.com has a new link to a search tool "for
> scientific information only," http://www.scirus.com/, from Elsevier
> Science. I just used it for the first time to locate that business about
> goniometers, and it seems impressive.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 09:27:07 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Tim Harwood  Address and Text
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:34:49 -0500
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Hi John.

Tim can be found on the Parallelpath egroup list.

I know you have some difficulties with HTML, but you should
strive to investigate Yahoo's Egroups. There you will find
much to amuse.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman antioch-college.edu]
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 6:58 PM
To: Vortex
Cc: Schnurer
Subject: Tim Harwood Address and Text





	Dear Vo,

	Below is a section of text from Tim Harwood about his discoveries.

	I do not have an address for him.  In the 8th line down he writes
	".....that and AM leaves and cold trail in space.   ...."

	I would like to ask him what an AM is.

	If anyone can forward this letter to him, please.   I am not
asking anyone to compromise his privacy.  Just ask if he could drop a
quick note letting us know what "AM" is or means, please. 


	Tim Harwood's Text, below:


Now, normally current radiates heat into space, when polarity reversed
current sucks in ambient energy - actively, as opposed to conventional
thermoelectric systems, which are passive. The conversion is also 100%
efficient. This is because nature abhors a vacuum. When nature suddenly
finds a massive negative potential in space, ambient energy rushes in to
try and bring that region back up to 0 - or maybe 2.7k, the background
energy level of space. Since we are in orbit, there is a speculative
possibility that an AM leaves a cold trail in space. You also have to
understand, the greater the voltage used, the greater the negative
pressure gradient / potential created, hence the more ambient energy
rushes into your stator wires on the negative pulse created by the
magnets. 



		Thank you,
						John Herman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 10:02:29 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:57:09 EST
Subject: Re: What is the flashpoint of regular water?
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In a message dated 10/30/2001 11:25:09 AM Central Standard Time, 
jedrothwell infinite-energy.com writes:

< This does not add energy to the fire, although it may transfer energy from 
 one place to another........

Jed,
Another fine longwinded dissertation - however your answer above is wrong. 
The fire does convert the H2O into hydrogen and Oxygen in the most basic 
essence - ADDING FUEL to the fire. Since the answer to, "What temperature is 
required to cause water to decompose into O & H" - is not known here, I shall 
just call the fire department. 

I have discovered that most academics have launched their "Ships" so long ago 
- they no longer have the need to return to port, nor are they aware they are 
still out at sea.

Chris

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 10:21:45 2001
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>Jed"



>Overall it was low-key but good in places. About 50 people attended,
>roughly the same as last year. Mitsubishi again presented the most
>impressive results. Upper management will not allow the researchers to
>publish extensive graphs and data in conference proceedings or the on-line


Mitsubishi... Is this Mitsubishi Heavy Industries?

What do they do/make?

s


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 10:32:15 2001
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: What is the flashpoint of regular water?
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At 11:36 AM 10/30/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Here is something that used to baffle me about fire: why were sailors 
>always so afraid of it, from the days of sailing ships to the present?

Jed:

Simple enough...  In order to gain access to this "unlimited quantity of 
water" you have to sink your ship.  Further Ships frequently carry many 
types of liquid fuel. (from the old lamp oil)  which typically floats on 
the water using it as a media to spread the fire.   Couple this with the 
taped rat feeling and the reality that the only full escape is overboard...

And there you have it    Maritime flamophobia :-)


Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 11:04:15 2001
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> < This does not add energy to the fire, although it may transfer energy
from
>  one place to another........
>
> Jed,
> Another fine longwinded dissertation - however your answer above is wrong.
> The fire does convert the H2O into hydrogen and Oxygen in the most basic
> essence - ADDING FUEL to the fire. [...]

If this were true, then one could make a fire which is fueled by water. Yet,
from where would the energy come, since the product of such a fire is, in
fact, water itself? If this were true then one could make a perpetual fire,
using the water created by the burning of water to be resupplied to the fire
itself.

Craig Haynie (Houston)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 11:16:06 2001
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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:15:36 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:

> The fire does convert the H2O into hydrogen and Oxygen in the most basic
> essence - ADDING FUEL to the fire. Since the answer to, "What temperature is
> required to cause water to decompose into O & H" - is not known here, I shall
> just call the fire department.

I think it's called the "heat of atomization".  It's why you
don't use water on Class D fires, eg burning magnesium.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 11:21:36 2001
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Subject: Re: Need help with x-ray diffraction terminology
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hank scudder wrote:

>I believe a goniometer is an angle measuring instrument, a protractor if 
>you will.

Right! I figured that out. I thought it was some kind of high tech gadget, 
but apparently it simply moves the detector along an arc, in this case at 
the speed of 1 degree per minute. They record the data with a pen recorder. 
Mizuno explained to me that they use "fully manual instrumentation" (opp. 
"fully automatic"). The peak x-ray intensity along the arc is used to 
compute the interatomic separation between oxygen atoms, to figure out the 
cluster size.

The y-axis in this graph is "intensity" and the x-axis is labeled "2 
theta." I am still not sure how this jargon is used in standard English. 
Translating the Japanese literally, it says:

"As a result of measuring two-theta through a range of 5 to 40 degrees, a 
particularly large difference between the samples was observed above 25 
degrees."

"Measuring two-theta" does not sound like grammatical English to me. Based 
on the Penn State document, I suppose the proper way to express  it is:

"Measurements taken over a range of 5 to 40 degrees, two-theta, reveal a 
particularly large difference between the samples above 25 degrees."

Perhaps that should be, "at two-theta"? "With two-theta"?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 11:31:50 2001
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Subject: Re: What is the flashpoint of regular water?
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Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:

>< This does not add energy to the fire, although it may transfer energy from
>  one place to another........
>
>Jed,
>Another fine longwinded dissertation - however your answer above is wrong. 
>The fire does convert the H2O into hydrogen and Oxygen in the most basic 
>essence - ADDING FUEL to the fire.

It was a shortwinded dissertation, followed by a medium sized non sequitur. 
And you are wrong. The water adds no energy to the fire. It absorbs energy 
at one point, which breaks the molecular bonds, and then that energy is 
released at a cooler spot when the bonds rejoin to form water. If you could 
arrange to have the free H2 and O2 gas recombine outside the burning 
building, this would remove a great deal of energy from the fire, although 
it would not help extinguish the fire. Perhaps this technique could be used 
to extract energy from a high temperature fission or fusion reactor core, 
with something like glow discharge electrolysis CF.

As Craig Haynie has already pointed out, if the water ADDED FUEL, you could 
use water for chemical fuel, which is impossible.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 11:38:33 2001
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Subject: Re: JCF3 Conference
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Steve wrote:

>Mitsubishi... Is this Mitsubishi Heavy Industries?

Right.


>What do they do/make?

See Abstract JCF3-15, and JCF3-16. Here is the first part of #15:

Observation of low energy nuclear reaction induced by D2 gas permeation 
through the multilayer Pd film(1) - Transmutation of Cs into Pr -

Takehiko ITOH, Mitsuru SAKANO, Yasuhiro IWAMURA* and Satosi SAKAI, Advanced 
Technology Research Center, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. 1-8-1, 
Sachiura, Kanazawa-ku, Yokohama, 236-8515, Japan . . . .

Keywords: Palladium, Cesium, Praseodymium, Transmutarion, X-ray 
photoelectron spectroscopy

We observed low energy nuclear reaction induced by deuterium permeation 
through a multilayer Pd film caused by D2 gas pressure gradient between 
each sides of the sample. We installed a device of the X-ray Photoelectron 
Spectroscopy (XPS) in the D2 gas permeations apparatus and carried out 
element analysis of the nuclear products on the surface of the sample 
without removing it from the equipment.

The multilayer Pd film is made by Ar ion beam sputtering method. We add Cs 
on the surface of the thin Pd film by applying electric field in 1mM CsNO3 
solution. . . .


In paper #16 they do the same trick converting Sr to Mo.

They explained that last year they were converting into common elements, 
such as Fe and Al, and this year they selected rare elements to reduce the 
likelihood that the apparent output was actually contamination. Several 
people suggested they use a radioactive species as a starting material. 
They said they are looking into this, but so far upper management has 
vetoed the idea because of safety concerns.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 12:03:07 2001
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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:56:27 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Times reports terrorist target energy plants
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I suppose this was inevitable . . . The U.K. Times reports today:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Terrorists targeting energy sites BY AFP

Tom Ridge, the Homeland Security Chief, said today that American energy 
companies must be on high alert, after the Government warned that new 
terrorist attacks may be imminent.

"We need to talk to our energy companies," Mr Ridge said in an interview on 
CNN. "We need to just ramp up our ability to be alert, ramp up our security 
and deal with what may occur."

Energy utilities, including nuclear power stations and electricity 
generating dams, have been mentioned as possible new targets for 
terrorists, following strikes using hijacked airliners on New York and the 
Pentagon on September 11. . . .

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I live a few miles away from one of the largest petroleum tank farms in the 
U.S. southeast, in Doraville, Georgia. It is the main east coast 
distribution end of a major Texas pipeline. A major fire occurred there in 
1972, killing 2 and injuring 161 people, and closing two main Atlanta 
highways. The other day I drove by to see how things look. As always, there 
was no sign of a guard. There is no gate; anyone can drive in and park a 
few feet away from a tank.

The Nation reports that an anti-nuclear activist spent 15 years trying to 
convince the nuclear plant operators and the NRC to install concrete 
barriers to prevent truck bombs. Sandia National Lab. recommended barriers 
too, but the industry did nothing. Security regulations "required that 
reactors be prepared for the following worst-case scenario: three lightly 
armed attackers moving together on foot, assisted by a fourth attacker 
inside the plant's work force. No cars, no planes, no grenades, no truck 
bombs, no gases, no multiple teams."

The Nation says that nothing was done to improve security until "1993, nine 
years later, after talk of new rules had begun, a deranged man drove his 
station wagon through the gates of Three Mile Island, crashing it into the 
turbine building and disappearing for four hours. Weeks later, terrorists 
tied to Al Qaeda bombed the World Trade Center, and afterward wrote to the 
New York Times that they would send 150 suicide bombers against US nuclear 
targets. . . ."

And finally action was taken.

See:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001375001,00.html

http://thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=special&s=bivens20011024

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 13:07:35 2001
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From: HLafonte aol.com
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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:02:02 EST
Subject: Re:What is the flashpoint? From Butch
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In a message dated 10/30/01 9:56:29 AM Central Daylight Time, 
Hypercom59 aol.com writes:

> Are there any firemen out there that would know this temperature range?
>  
>  Best Regards,
>  Chris
>  
Chris,
I remember reading that 5000 degrees F. was the "cracking point" for water.
Regards,
Butch LaFonte

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 30 19:58:08 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:54:55 EST
Subject: Re: What is the flashpoint? From Butch
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In a message dated 10/30/01 4:06:30 PM Central Standard Time, 
HLafonte aol.com writes:

< Chris,
 I remember reading that 5000 degrees F. was the "cracking point" for water.
 Regards,
 Butch LaFonte 

Thank you Butch, 
I knew somebody here had the answer.  I did call the fire department and the 
chief mentioned the magnesium fire would cause repeated explosions as water 
was applied - however he suggested calling a physics lab for possible reasons 
for it. 

Since my device runs on plasma anyway - a jet of water injected directly into 
the 25,000 Plus degree Plasma would crack the water "for free" (at no 
additional cost) - providing a cheap source of hydrogen as "another" side 
effect of normal device operation. The electrodes are Tungsten and Platinum 
however my patent specifically calls for "electrical conductors from the 
group of high melting point ......" Iridium, Rhenium, Tungsten, Platinum - 
take your pick. 
Plasma Transmutation is not only possible, it can be done by many different 
methods - and Jed, you were correct - right "here" in the USA. Now, what do 
you think the metal sphere is for?

http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html

Regards,
Chris

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 31 01:20:02 2001
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<<Keywords: Palladium, Cesium, Praseodymium, Transmutarion, X-ray 
photoelectron spectroscopy>>

What is Transmutarion, Jed??

Nick Palmer


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 31 06:26:26 2001
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Subject: Re: What is the flashpoint of regular water?
References: <2b.1d7223f1.291043f5 aol.com> <3BDEFC58.A105B125@bellsouth.net>
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You do not use water on burning magnesium because magnesium
reacts with water to
produce MgO and H2.  The H2 combines with oxygen and the
magnesium continues to
burn.

Ed Storms

Terry Blanton wrote:

> Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:
>
> > The fire does convert the H2O into hydrogen and Oxygen in the most basic
> > essence - ADDING FUEL to the fire. Since the answer to, "What temperature is
> > required to cause water to decompose into O & H" - is not known here, I shall
> > just call the fire department.
>
> I think it's called the "heat of atomization".  It's why you
> don't use water on Class D fires, eg burning magnesium.
>
> Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 31 06:42:19 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:40:57 EST
Subject: Re: your post to vortex; Flashpoint
To: vcockeram lvcm.com
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In a message dated 10/30/01 11:02:18 PM Central Standard Time, 
vcockeram lvcm.com writes:

<"for free" ??
<Nothing is free Chris. Where do you think the energy to crack the water
<comes from?  From the plasma in your device, that's where.

Vince,

The plasma is a "side effect" of an extremely efficient device that looks 
like a motor.
Any further use that the plasma is put to, MUST be considered free - or the 
system would be OVERUNITY.  We all know that's impossible now, don't we? 
 
As my device runs like a motor it produces mechanical power and plasma via 
pulses of electricity, to the tune of 1000 to 3000 per second and the 
electromagnetic drive coil gets cooler as another side effect of plasma 
formation.  Whether or not water is injected into the plasma or water vapor 
is present or its in a dry partial vacuum, the motor runs at well over 90% 
efficiency and the coils get "cooler" - unlike any other motor. 

<Any energy your plasma
<is giving off will be reduced by the energy needed to bust the water into H2
<and O2. I don't have the figures on how much energy is required but it is
<considerable

Contrary to your belief that (under normal conditions) something will be 
taken away as water gets cracked - this is simply not the case.  The figure 6 
device is designed to run while producing plasma underwater - it produces 
mechanical power and produces gas and plenty of plasma - all under water.  It 
runs the same mechanically with the plasma in air or submerged in D2O or 
light water.  Once the gas is formed, it rises above the plasma for 
collection - continuously.

<The burning magnesium + water reaction is well known but does not give off
<extra energy, it just causes the magnesium to burn very fast. (can you say
<'explode?)

The burning magnesium cracked the water - the explosion was the simple 
recombination of the components of the spilt gasses.  The magnesium was 
burning anyway, and when an underwater flare burns (BTW I was certified at 16 
for scuba) the gasses rise away from the burning magnesium upon formation.  
No instant "Explosion" occurs when the gasses are removed by buoyancy.

In a Nut Shell, my invention is not normal, but it is useful in many diverse 
ways.

My videos prove it is unique and that it works - why do so many resist,
 by unscientifically ignoring what is not understood?

Best Regards,
Chris Arnold

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 31 16:24:42 2001
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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What is Transmutarion, Jed??

Nick Palmer
.................
Jed traveled all the way to Japan.  Generated a report for all of us.
Learned to speak Japaniese.
........................................................
Nick found a spelling error.
................
Thank you Jed.  


Frank Z

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 31 16:34:17 2001
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Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:41:15 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Marx
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	Below is URL for a site which shows a simple low tech Marx Pulse
former.

	As shown the device can deliver a respectable pulse.

	There is a modification of the Marx Pulse Generator which operates
as follows:

	Each of the Spark Gaps is formed against a rigid register or guide
so the gaps are in a straight line that one can sight down.   The Negative
poles of each gap is provided with a suitable material that is a good
emitter of electrons if exposed to light of a given wavelength.  for
example if you were working with light at 550 nm or nano meters then
postassium and sodium alloy with rubidium would emit photoelectrons well.

	Zinc or nickle work well in the Ultra violet.  

	Using photoactive spark gaps and setting up a reasonably well
lined up bore sighted spark gap can allow for rapid rise time pulses to be
generated.

	A collimated or parallel focus, as opposed to diverging or
converging optical reflector can be realized with the reflector used in
many flash lights.   Using a small lamp, one that is tiny compared to the
lamp normally used in the reflector will allow you to find the focal point
for a point source placement.
	If a reasonably bright UV source that is fairly small is
positioned properly you can illuminate the row of spark gaps with UV light
and trigger them quite rapidly.
	One method that has been used is to make the spark gap from carbon
for one electrode and an alkali metal, such as aluminum wire for the other
electrode.  If this is driven with a reasonably "hot" spark with a degree
of RF emission it is possible to trigger the pulse former with a cascade
with tends to attempt to propagate from gap to gap to gap at the speed of
propagation of the UV and RF excitation.  
	You must wear eye protection while doing this.  While any carbon
rod wil work, such as the rods used as "gouges" by welders, rods which
intentionally have iron and other metals in them have, usually, a greater
light output.  

	NOTE:

	If anyone is interested in experienting with these I know a man
who is willing to make a few of the ladder arrays, similar to the ones you
see on the URL above, with the following differences: 
	The negative side of, or one side of the spark gap will be made of
a photo activ e metal wire, probably pure nickle, or an active alloy. 
	A 3 foot length of UV active wire that is solderable, ie., not
aluminum, will be included for repairs.  This is a 12 stage pulse former
with a free standing RC array.  100 USD assembled 50 USD for a kit of
parts. 
 	A fly bv back transformer based power supply designed for 12 input
can be
supplied to power this with the nominal 4 to 6 KV at 120 USD assembled and
for 65 USD for a kit model.
	Shipping depends on where you are.  

	----

	More note on HV and pulses to follow in future discussions.

						JH














http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~wwl/marxgen.htm

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: What is the flashpoint of regular water?
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>
>This does not add energy to the fire, although it may transfer 
>energy from one place to another.

water in a liquid fuel would casue the liquid to boil, spreading it.

>It makes the fire more destructive because you can no longer use 
>water to extinguish it, and foam fire retardants are not readily 
>available in huge quantities, the way water is.

I was talking to a former naval fireman who said that water on a 
liquid fuel fire accelerates it

>
Here is something that used to baffle me about fire: why were sailors 
always so afraid of it, from the days of sailing ships to the 
present? They have

You missed one Jed, Have you ever been in a closed space with smoke?

--