From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  1 01:39:57 2001
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
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Subject: Re: JCF3 Conference
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:38:11 -0000
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Frank Z - I was not pointing out any spelling error of Jed's (there are far
more "target rich" contributors if I DID want to take pot shots like that).
I was simply wondering what Transmutarion meant in the context of the other
"keywords" to the abstract which were, mostly, the name of elements
("Palladium, Cesium, Praseodymium, Transmutarion, photoelectron
spectroscopy"). Is it a neologism for the products of transmutation or what?

Nick Palmer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  1 05:07:54 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: JCF3 Conference
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Nick Palmer wrote:

>Frank Z - I was not pointing out any spelling error of Jed's (there are 
>far more "target rich" contributors if I DID want to take pot shots like 
>that). I was simply wondering what Transmutarion meant in the context of 
>the other "keywords" . . .

That was a spelling error. It wasn't my error, actually. I copied it 
directly from the Acrobat format file of Abstracts. I am a little surprised 
the people at Mitsubishi did not catch it.

My own spelling is atrocious. If it were not for the spell check feature, I 
would look like a half-literate 7th grade kid posting messages. One of the 
more sublime moments in my life was when I finished programming the first 
word processor with a spell check program that I ever saw or used. (Data 
General provided me with a list of 110,000 correctly spelled words.) For 
me, word processing has only marginally improved since then.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  1 08:43:34 2001
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Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 11:43:58 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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From:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/2001/10/102901.html

DJINN ENERGY

A leading Pakistani nuclear scientist who was questioned by the
Pakistani government last week concerning his ties to the Taliban
is known as a proponent of "Islamic science," a weird hybrid of
scientific terminology and Islamic lore.

Sultan Bashiruddin Mehmood is a pioneer in the development of
nuclear technology in Pakistan. But in 1980, as a senior director
of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, he "recommended that
djinns [or genies], being fiery creatures, ought to be tapped as
a free source of energy. By this means, a final solution to
Pakistan's energy problems would be found."

This episode was recounted by Pakistani physicist Pervez Hoodbhoy
in his enlightening book "Islam and Science: Religious Orthodoxy
and the Battle for Rationality" (Zed Books, 1991). 

In a Wall Street Journal article on Islamic science (13 September
1988), Dr. Mehmood noted that King Solomon had harnessed energy
from djinns. "I think that if we develop our souls we can develop
communications with them," he said.

While the notion of "djinn energy" is ridiculous -- even in
Pakistan there are no djinn engines -- ridicule is beside the
point. A more important point is that influential figures in the
Islamic world are devoted to a view of reality that cannot be
readily reconciled with conventional Western thought. This is a
"translation" problem that cannot be solved with dictionaries.

The detention of Bashiruddin Mehmood, which is expected to be
temporary, was reported in the Pakistan Observer in Islamabad on
October 25. See "Nuclear Scientists Picked [Up] By Agencies":

http://pakobservercom.readyhosting.com/old/october/25/main.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  1 10:16:33 2001
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Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:13:25 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Djinn Energy
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Here is some other jolly energy news from Pakistan about Sultan Bashiruddin 
Mehmood (also spelled Mahmood). He is suspected of conspiring to put 
nuclear weapons into the hands of the Taliban. See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/01/international/asia/01STAN.html

New York Times

November 1, 2001

NUCLEAR FEARS

Pakistan Atom Experts Held Amid Fear of Leaked Secrets
By JOHN F. BURNS

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, Oct. 31 — Pakistan has arrested three of the country's 
leading nuclear scientists and held them for questioning for most of the 
last week in connection with American concerns that nuclear weapons 
technology could have found its way into the hands of Osama bin Laden and 
the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan, officials in Pakistan said today.

They provided no details, and would not say whether they had turned up 
information to confirm American concerns. . . .

The Pakistani officials confirmed that one man who has been questioned is 
Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood, a former top official of Pakistan's Atomic 
Energy Commission who has been identified in Pakistani newspapers as having 
been involved in the development of the atomic bombs Pakistan tested in its 
western desert in May 1998 after similar tests by India earlier that month.

The other arrested men were identified as Mirza Yusuf Baig and Abdul 
Majeed, also senior scientists with the Atomic Energy Commission. Dr. 
Majeed was said to have retired from the commission, while Dr. Baig's 
status was unclear. . . .


Western intelligence officials said they had indications that Mr. bin Laden 
had made unsuccessful attempts to procure fissionable materials for nuclear 
weapons beginning at about the time of Pakistan's nuclear tests.
Publicly, officials on General Musharraf's staff have played down the case, 
saying that the three men had nothing to do with nuclear weapons.
Dr. Mahmood retired from government service in 1998, Maj. Gen. Rashid 
Qureshi, the spokesman for General Musharraf, said at a daily Foreign 
Ministry briefing for reporters on Tuesday. He said Dr. Mahmood had been 
operating a nongovernmental organization and in the course of his duties 
had traveled to Afghanistan.

He added: "There were certain questions that needed to be asked and those 
have been asked. The report about his handing over to the C.I.A. or F.B.I. 
or any other agency is absolutely incorrect and false. Presently, he is not 
under arrest at all and he is in hospital."

But members of the scientists' families denied today that the men had been 
released, saying they had no access to them and demanding that the 
government tell the truth about the arrests. "Speaking lies on such a 
sensitive issue is not going to serve any purpose," the wives of the 
scientists declared.

Other Pakistani officials said that the case was sensitive and that 
official denials should not be taken at face value. "What other nuclear 
program does Pakistan have, other than a nuclear weapons program?" one 
official said.

The official recalled receiving instructions in the mid-1990's to deny, in 
official contacts with American officials, that Pakistan was developing 
nuclear weapons, at a time when the country already had assembled nuclear 
bombs. "It's just one of those things you can't be absolutely 
straightforward about," he said. . . . .

American officials flew to Pakistan to discuss ways of preventing 
Pakistan's small arsenal of nuclear weapons, said to number fewer than 20, 
from falling into the hands of extremists if the government was toppled by 
Islamic militants within the army.

. . . In their appeal today to General Musharraf, the wives of the 
scientists said Dr. Mahmood, the most senior of the three, had a heart 
attack on Tuesday while undergoing "intensive inhuman interrogation."

"As you are aware, they are eminent nuclear scientists who have served this 
country to the best of their abilities," the letter to General Musharraf 
said. "They do not have any association with any terrorist or anti-Pakistan 
organization." 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  1 10:43:48 2001
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Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:41:07 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Djinn Energy
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Terry Blanton quotes:

>While the notion of "djinn energy" is ridiculous -- even in
>Pakistan there are no djinn engines -- ridicule is beside the
>point. A more important point is that influential figures in the
>Islamic world are devoted to a view of reality that cannot be
>readily reconciled with conventional Western thought. This is a
>"translation" problem that cannot be solved with dictionaries.

Actually, there are many people in the West devoted to views of reality 
that cannot be reconciled with traditional, conventional Western thought, 
starting with the scientists at the DoE who deny that cold fusion exists. 
Perhaps there are more anti-science fanatics in the Islamic world, but we 
enough in the U.S. to gum up the works and derail academic freedom.

I think one lesson of the CF debacle has been that is it easy to crush 
innovation. Only a small number of people in each generation contribute 
meaningful, major progress. Most scientists and engineers merely follow up 
on the great innovations made by the few. Because there are so few, it is 
relatively easy to stop them. You toss Fleischmann and Pons out of the 
country, order Miles and few others to refrain from working on CF or 
talking about it, and in a few years the innovation dies. It takes only a 
small number of people to hold a society hostage to vicious, crazy ideas, 
and to sabotage progress.

This is true in academic research, politics, and society as a whole. Here 
in Atlanta and the rest of the south, I think most white citizens were 
decent, law abiding and peaceful during the years from 1850 to 1970, but 
they did favor slavery and later segregation. To enforce it, they gave 
tacit support to a small group of terrorists, who controlled the 
government, the press and society. People who wonder how the Taliban holds 
a nation in thrall need look no farther than the recent history of the 
Southeastern U.S. As Martin Luther King said, "We will have to repent in 
this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad 
people but for the appalling silence of the good people."

Other bad news from the U.S. includes passage of what I consider blatantly 
unconstitutional laws. I cannot imagine what is going through the minds of 
the legislators and the President. Once you pass laws allowing the 
government to snatch people off street and hold them indefinitely, even if 
you do it for what seems to be a good cause or because you are frightened, 
evil people rise to power and use those laws for nefarious purposes. Laws 
like that attract evil people, the way sugar attracts ants.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  1 12:32:33 2001
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Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 15:28:29 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC Christian Right Lobbies to Overturn
  Thermodynamics
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Not really, but I got a good laugh out of it:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3631/christian_right_lobbies.html

I love the picture of the woman on the courthouse stairs carrying the sign, 
"I don't accept fundamental tenets of science, AND I VOTE."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  1 19:35:24 2001
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Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 21:30:07 -0600
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: WAY OFF TOPIC Christian Right Lobbies to Overturn
  Thermodynamics
Cc: lona Ford <LonaF swbell.net>
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At 03:28 PM 11/1/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Not really, but I got a good laugh out of it:
>
>http://www.theonion.com/onion3631/christian_right_lobbies.html
>
>I love the picture of the woman on the courthouse stairs carrying the 
>sign, "I don't accept fundamental tenets of science, AND I VOTE."
>
>- Jed

These Christian fundamentalists...  Next thing you know they will be 
lobbying to make dihydrogenmonoxide a controlled substance. :-)


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  2 11:05:32 2001
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Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:02:46 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Interesting website
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Len Horowitz, webmaster of www.tetrahedron.org has a new website 
which has some very interesting claims.Dr. Horowitz's prayer 
amplifier is said to utilize scalar waves, I'm going to get a PC 
computer working so that I can down load the trial version. See 
www.miracle6.com
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  2 12:49:11 2001
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Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 15:44:03 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Loading Pd over 1.0
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I have often heard it is impossible to load Pd with H or D to a ratio over 
1.0. In other words, you cannot cram in more hydrogen atoms than there are 
palladium atoms. So I was surprised to hear Celani claim that thin wire 
experiments at his lab, ENEA, SRI and Pirelli have demonstrated loading at 
higher levels, up to 1.5, and typically 1.2 to 1.3.

Cold fusion with palladium apparently depends upon high loading. For many 
years people have been trying to develop methods to load quickly, uniformly 
and reliably, that is, with good reproducibility.

I asked some electrochemists about this. Storms, Britz and McKubre informed 
me that such higher loading has been observed, but it is difficult to know 
how high the loading is actually going, because the standard methods of 
measuring loading may not work predictably above 1.0. McKubre wrote: “There 
is no fundamental reason why you cannot load Pd to 2 ( or even 3).  It 
either requires double occupancy of the Octahedral sites (as conjectured by 
no less than Linus Pauling and Julian Schwinger), or occupation of 
the  Tetrahedral sites, as was much conjectured by Giuliano Preparata 
(being  followed up now by Vittorio Violante), and others. There are 
published papers in the Russian literature at D/Pd = 1.33 from ion 
implantation.”

During his JCF3 lecture, Celani reported progress with the technique. He 
says it used to take two days to load up to 1.3, but now it has been done 
repeatedly in a much shorter time, with both H and D. The main problem is 
to keep the electrolyte clean. He said, “It is possible to load hydrogen up 
to 1.3 in one hour. When I [told] Fleischmann [about these results], last 
month, he thought it was impossible. Completely impossible. Or at least it 
would need three months.”

McKubre explained, “Resistance ratios that look like loadings of 1.1 (or 
more) can easily be obtained in very thin wires (less than 125 microns) in 
periods of only a few hours. The problem is a thermodynamic one, NOT 
diffusion times (which are only seconds or minutes in these structures).” 
He says ratios can be obtained, meaning that when you measure by the 
resistance method it looks as if the wire is highly loaded, but that may 
not be strictly true. He e-mailed me a paper about this:

Physics Letters A 276 (2000) 1­5

Temperature coefficient of resistivity at compositions
approaching PdH

P. Tripodi, M.C.H. McKubre, F.L.Tanzella, P.A. Honnor, D. Di Gioacchino, F. 
Celani, V. Violante

Here is the Abstract, which has quite a few Greek letters. I hope I have 
replaced them all correctly:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Measurements have been made of the temperature coefficient of resistivity, 
lambda, versus hydrogen concentration, H/Pd, at very high concentrations in 
the Pd-H system. Unusually high hydrogen compositions were achieved using 
an electrochemical loading
procedure which allowed stable Pd­H systems to be obtained. It is well 
known that increasing the H/Pd concentrations leads to three different 
phases (alpha, alpha+beta, beta), respectively, in the Pd­H system; the 
beta phase is thought to end in an asymptotic limit. Possible evidence that 
a new phase (gamma) exists, bordering the beta phase at compositions H/Pd > 
0.9 is reported and discussed.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  2 15:41:21 2001
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Jed, I think it is important to make a clear distinction between measurements
of the average composition, which is determined by all of the methods, and the
actual composition of the surface region where the nuclear reactions actually
occur.  If the average composition is PdD>1.0 as I and others have achieved,
the surface composition must be greater and it must be a different phase from
the bulk material.  This conclusion is not a matter of debate, but based on
observation and thermodynamic principles.  This being the case, the average
composition has only an indirect relationship to the ability to initiate a
nuclear reaction, and is the reason why anomalous results appear to occur only
within a broad range of values for the average composition.  Not all samples
can achieve the necessary surface composition even though the average bulk
composition is high.  If this behavior were more clearly understood by people
working in the field, much less confusion would exist in trying to achieve
reproducibility and to understand the claims for high D/Pd ratios.

Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I have often heard it is impossible to load Pd with H or D to a ratio over
> 1.0. In other words, you cannot cram in more hydrogen atoms than there are
> palladium atoms. So I was surprised to hear Celani claim that thin wire
> experiments at his lab, ENEA, SRI and Pirelli have demonstrated loading at
> higher levels, up to 1.5, and typically 1.2 to 1.3.
>
> Cold fusion with palladium apparently depends upon high loading. For many
> years people have been trying to develop methods to load quickly, uniformly
> and reliably, that is, with good reproducibility.
>
> I asked some electrochemists about this. Storms, Britz and McKubre informed
> me that such higher loading has been observed, but it is difficult to know
> how high the loading is actually going, because the standard methods of
> measuring loading may not work predictably above 1.0. McKubre wrote: “There
> is no fundamental reason why you cannot load Pd to 2 ( or even 3).  It
> either requires double occupancy of the Octahedral sites (as conjectured by
> no less than Linus Pauling and Julian Schwinger), or occupation of
> the  Tetrahedral sites, as was much conjectured by Giuliano Preparata
> (being  followed up now by Vittorio Violante), and others. There are
> published papers in the Russian literature at D/Pd = 1.33 from ion
> implantation.”
>
> During his JCF3 lecture, Celani reported progress with the technique. He
> says it used to take two days to load up to 1.3, but now it has been done
> repeatedly in a much shorter time, with both H and D. The main problem is
> to keep the electrolyte clean. He said, “It is possible to load hydrogen up
> to 1.3 in one hour. When I [told] Fleischmann [about these results], last
> month, he thought it was impossible. Completely impossible. Or at least it
> would need three months.”
>
> McKubre explained, “Resistance ratios that look like loadings of 1.1 (or
> more) can easily be obtained in very thin wires (less than 125 microns) in
> periods of only a few hours. The problem is a thermodynamic one, NOT
> diffusion times (which are only seconds or minutes in these structures).”
> He says ratios can be obtained, meaning that when you measure by the
> resistance method it looks as if the wire is highly loaded, but that may
> not be strictly true. He e-mailed me a paper about this:
>
> Physics Letters A 276 (2000) 1?5
>
> Temperature coefficient of resistivity at compositions
> approaching PdH
>
> P. Tripodi, M.C.H. McKubre, F.L.Tanzella, P.A. Honnor, D. Di Gioacchino, F.
> Celani, V. Violante
>
> Here is the Abstract, which has quite a few Greek letters. I hope I have
> replaced them all correctly:
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Measurements have been made of the temperature coefficient of resistivity,
> lambda, versus hydrogen concentration, H/Pd, at very high concentrations in
> the Pd-H system. Unusually high hydrogen compositions were achieved using
> an electrochemical loading
> procedure which allowed stable Pd?H systems to be obtained. It is well
> known that increasing the H/Pd concentrations leads to three different
> phases (alpha, alpha+beta, beta), respectively, in the Pd?H system; the
> beta phase is thought to end in an asymptotic limit. Possible evidence that
> a new phase (gamma) exists, bordering the beta phase at compositions H/Pd >
> 0.9 is reported and discussed.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  2 18:58:24 2001
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>Jed, I think it is important to make a clear distinction between measurements
>of the average composition, which is determined by all of the methods, and
the
>actual composition of the surface region where the nuclear reactions actually
>occur.  If the average composition is PdD>1.0 as I and others have achieved,
>the surface composition must be greater and it must be a different phase from
>the bulk material.

This is vital point, of course.

Until now I had the mistaken impression that people claiming a ratio close
to 1.0 were talking about the surface or near surface only, and the overall
average was somewhat below that, around 0.9. I did not realize that you and
others have actually measured an average at or above 1.0. In that case,
obviously the surface areas must have a concentration well above 1.

I wrote "cold fusion with palladium apparently depends upon high loading."
That may sound unreasonably cautious, given the mountain of evidence
correlating loading and heat, but I have had, and still have, a suspicion
that loading is not the real issue. What you want is a crowd of deuterons
dancing around near the surface, probably in some form of excitation. The
situation at lower levels, and average overall loading probably does not
matter. Otherwise, gas loaded cells would not produce measurable effects,
especially the Pd membranes at Mitsubishi. The deuterons must be well
spread out just below the surface of the membrane.


>within a broad range of values for the average composition.  Not all samples
>can achieve the necessary surface composition even though the average bulk
>composition is high.  If this behavior were more clearly understood by people
>working in the field, much less confusion would exist in trying to achieve
>reproducibility and to understand the claims for high D/Pd ratios.

Many things should be understood, but are not. Ignorance is the bane of
this field. The opposition is far more ignorant than the researchers, but
the researcher's does far greater harm, by wasting precious time and
funding. Three or four of the JCF presentations depressed me, because the
researchers had not read the literature, even the papers in Japanese by
Mizuno. One undergrad was trying to do a glow discharge experiment, with
the wrong anode-cathode geometry, the wrong voltage, the wrong temperature,
and several other mistakes. Mizuno took him aside later and explained the
technique. The fellow should have found these things out for himself. His
professor, Takahashi, should have paid more attention to the research and
suggested he confer with Ohmori and Mizuno.

- Jed

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Nov 02, 2001
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:55:46 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 2 Nov 01   Washington, DC

1. CLIMATE TREATY: THE UNITED STATES IS SITTING ON THE BENCH.  In 
Morocco this week, the nations of the world are gathered to work
out the details of the Kyoto Protocol, requiring cuts in emission
of greenhouse gases. However, President Bush made it clear that
the nation that leads the world in climate research, and which
also happens to be the biggest producer of greenhouse emissions,
won't be part of any agreement that is reached.  Americans are
preoccupied by other events, and those opposing the Protocol,
including the President, insist that it treats industrialized
nations unfairly. Since the treaty can only take effect if
ratified by countries accounting for 55% of the 1990 greenhouse
emissions, any meaningful treaty is probably doomed. 

2. MISSILE DEFENSE: THE NMD STORY TAKES YET ANOTHER PLOT TWIST. 
Last week's "deal" unraveled (WN 26 Oct 01), but the Washington
Post and the New York Times now say the U.S. and Russia are close
to another deal.  Under this week's "deal"  Russia would permit
NMD tests, in return for which the U.S. would agree to stockpile
cuts and postpone a decision to abandon the 1972 ABM treaty. 
Perhaps Putin looked at the results of NMD tests thus far (WN 10
Jul 01), and decided such tests are unlikely to lead to a real
defense anyway.  Or maybe all these "deals" are weather balloons,
sent up to check on the climate for the summit that will begin on
13 Nov.  Stay tuned.  WN will continue to report these deals. 

3. LOOSE NUKES: CONGRESS CHOOSES PORK OVER NUCLEAR SAFEGUARDS.
Everyone in Washington is trying to guess what weapon terrorists
will unleash next.  Nuclear is high on the chart.  It needn't be
a bomb: widely-scattered radioactive material would effectively
spread panic in a society that already has an exaggerated fear of
all things radioactive.  But in approving a $25B energy and water
bill, $2B more than the President requested, Congress failed to
add money for programs to safeguard Russian nuclear stockpiles. 

4. NASA SPACEGUARD: HOW FAR SHOULD WE GO IN DETECTING ASTEROIDS? 
The NASA goal is to detect asteroids larger than 1 km diameter,
which is the lower limit for a global catastrophe.  As the size
of an asteroid goes down, however, detection costs go up.  We
will examine the implications more closely in the next issue. 

5. ISS: MANAGEMENT AND COST EVALUATION TASK FORCE REPORT.  You
will recall that the ISS is 4.8B over budget--down to a Mir-sized
crew of three--and has effectively scrapped its science programs. 
Major changes in how the ISS is managed are called for in the
Task Force report, which was released just minutes ago.  The
report also calls for additional funds to be made available from
the Human Space Flight budget.  Until now, cost overruns on the
ISS have been made up with funds taken from science programs

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. 
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  5 10:02:23 2001
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Subject: OFF TOPIC Airport security joke
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Here is an item from CNN which sounds like a joke but it isn't:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/05/inv.ohare.security.breach/index.html

CHICAGO, Illinois (CNN) --A man who tried to board a United Airlines flight 
armed with nine knives, a can of Mace and a stun gun was re-arrested by the 
FBI, after being released earlier by local authorities, officials said 
Monday. . . .

CNN has learned of an apparent connection Gurung has with one of two men 
who were detained in Texas after the September 11 terrorist attacks.

Gurung listed the same West Hollywood Avenue apartment address in Chicago 
as Ayub Ali Khan, who is being held as a material witness in the September 
hijackings.

Khan and Mohamed Jaweed Azmath were arrested in Fort Worth, Texas, on 
September 12 on an Amtrak train heading to San Antonio. Found in their 
possession were $5,500 cash, two flat box-cutter type knives and hair dye. 
Azmath also had copies of numerous passport photos. . . .

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

This sort of thing does not inspire confidence in the Authorities and 
Experts who are appointed to Protect the Public. They look like a gang of 
Keystone Cops (from the slapstick silent movie era). I expect this is a 
false impression. Probably most of airport security people are competent 
professionals. I have great respect for the CDC investigators.

What this proves is that some experts are dolts. It only takes one dolt to 
cause great harm to a fragile, high tech system such as the air 
transportation network, a nuclear power plant, or -- in a sense -- the 
American Physical Society. These institutions skirt the brink of disaster 
every day. They depend upon good will, honesty, team effort and the 
diligence of experts. Unfortunately there is not much we can do about this 
fragility. Cold fusion would solve many of the problems in these three 
institutions, if it can be made practical and the political opposition can 
be overcome. It cannot fix the problems in other, similar fragile 
institutions, such as the stock market, education, public health, the 
crisis with antibiotics, and so on. I do not know where or how these 
problems can be fixed, but history shows that many previous catastrophic 
problems, which people thought might end civilization, were fixed. Some of 
them were turned out to be remarkably easy to repair, while others still 
threaten us.

Some of the best solutions turned out to be temporary. Fossil fuels gave us 
a brief opportunity, perhaps 200 or 300 years, to find something better. 
Antibiotics gave us 50 to 100 years respite from many dangerous infectious 
diseases in wealthy nations, but evolution and foolish abuse will soon put 
an end to this idyllic state of affairs. If we diligently research biology, 
spend huge sums of money, and we get lucky, we may find another temporary 
escape. If we fail, our children and grandchildren will once again live in 
mortal fear of tuberculoses, strep throat, pneumonia, the black plague, and 
other common diseases. Dozens of diseases will strike as inexorably as AIDS 
and cancer do today, killing millions of people of all ages, as they do in 
most countries even now. In 1968, a prominent health expert declared that 
the age of infectious disease was over. This was like saying that oil and 
natural gas will solve our energy needs forever, and everyone can afford a car.

Anyway, this is not the End of History after all. I prefer things this way. 
In a sense, I am glad to live in an era in which the human race might still 
destroy itself or wipe out the planet. I expect that over the next thousand 
years we will fix most of these problems, and build a society closer to 
Utopia, here on earth and on other planets. Things will be safe, but very 
dull. Ennui may then be our worst problem.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  5 10:52:14 2001
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Someone wrote to me asking politely that I refrain from posting OFF TOPIC 
messages in Vortex. Actually, that last message was secretly on topic, my 
thesis being that fragility, lack of control, and lack of responsiveness at 
large institutions caused the crisis in cold fusion.

Anyway, I'd like to point out that the heading "OFF TOPIC" is an agreed 
upon protocol in Vortex. It applies to which are not humorous or venomous, 
which are supposed to go to Vortex-BL. More important, with any e-mail 
program written in the last five years, such as Eudora or Outlook, you can 
easily create a "filter" which will automatically delete messages with "OFF 
TOPIC" in the heading. You can even write a filter to delete "OFF TOPIC" 
messages coming from JedRothwell. I can advise how to do this with Eudora. 
I am not familiar with Outlook.

Many people do not realize that e-mail programs have this capability, 
because people are busy, and they do not have time to explore software 
features. I use filtering to delete spam, such as any message "From: <>" or 
"To: <Undisclosed Recipients>" Earthlink.com (formerly Mindspring) has 
pretty good built-in spam blocking at their server, but some does get through.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  5 11:45:39 2001
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This story is stranger with each telling. I suppose details will be in all 
the newspapers, but here is the latest version:

(CNN) -- Seven airport security workers have been suspended after police 
said a man made it through a security checkpoint at Chicago's O'Hare 
International Airport with knives, a can of Mace and a stun gun.

Security screeners took two knives from Subash Gurung, 27, after he 
initially went through the checkpoint Saturday night, authorities said. 
Gurung then was allowed to pass through. Seven more knives, Mace and a stun 
gun were found in his carry-on luggage during a random search before 
boarding a United Airlines flight, police said. . . .

- JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  5 13:34:38 2001
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I reported earlier that Celani said there was a doctor working on the 
Ralstonia bioremediation project. Actually, he said there are physicists, 
"three biologists and three medical doctors." It is a remarkable eclectic 
interdisciplinary team. High government officials were very impressed by 
the reported results. The government is giving them a grant from 
discretionary funds immediately. If the results remain promising, this will 
lead to millions more in the near future. Celani says the government 
is  discussing a pilot project that will cost on the order of $200 million.

He said that in some of tests, they added toxic levels of mercury and other 
heavy metals to water. I am not sure how the process works, but I presume 
they grew Ralstonia in the water, then filter out the bacteria. That is 
more effective than trying to filter individual mercury atoms. The final 
product is "water clean enough to drink" according to Celani.

Ralstonia is a remarkably hardly bacteria. It metabolizes mercury or 
radioactive uranium. It can survive 30 mega-rads of radiation from a 
cobalt-60 source. Five hundred rads is enough to kill a person. (In 
medicine, the rem unit is often used instead of rad, r(oentgen) e(quivalent 
in) m(an), where 1 rem = 1 rad.)

As I mentioned Celani et al. have been working on the thin wire loading 
techniques for some time. He cited similar research at SRI and Pirelli, and 
SRI published a paper about last year in Physics Letters A. Celani said it 
used to take two days to load up to 1.3, but now it has been done 
repeatedly in a much shorter time, with both H and D. The main problem is 
to keep the electrolyte clean. He said, "It is possible to load hydrogen up 
to 1.3 in one hour." When he told Fleischmann about these results during a 
recent visit, he says Fleischmann thought it was impossible. "Or at least, 
it would need three months." McKubre thinks Celani may have misunderstood 
Fleischmann. He says it is well known that thin wires can load quickly. As 
I mentioned, he said:

"Resistance ratios that look like loadings of 1.1 (or more) can easily be 
obtained in very thin wires (less than 125 microns) in periods of only a 
few hours. The problem is a thermodynamic one, NOT diffusion times (which 
are only seconds or minutes in these structures)."

I wouldn't want to misquote Fleischmann, but I checked the audiotape, and 
that is what Celani says.

My audiotape quality is very poor, unfortunately. The conference room, on 
the university campus, had poor quality microphones and speakers. The 
organizers do not give much thought to electronic presentations.

I wish these JCF and ICCF conferences could be preserved on good quality 
streaming video available to anyone over the Internet. The more people who 
hear and see original source presentations, the better. The conference 
organizers are generally old men who have little interest or knowledge of 
the Internet, and no interest whatsoever in public opinion, or for that 
matter, the opinions of other researchers. That is the impression I got 
from F. Scaramuzzi's candid introduction to the ICCF8 Proceedings, and from 
my discussions with Scaramuzzi. Their attitude is both a strength and a 
weakness. A strength, because if they worried about what other people think 
they would have stopped years ago; and a weakness because they do not tell 
other people what they are doing. They assume that good quality research 
and being correct will eventually lead to recognition. I believe this is a 
textbook myth.

In other fields, people recognize the need to make their case and attract 
attention. Businessmen sometimes talk about a "product so good, it sells 
itself," but I doubt that an experienced businessman actually believes such 
a thing is possible. Some form of promotion or advertising is needed, 
because people do not hear about innovations by ESP. In many areas of 
science, such as hot fusion or cancer research, the pubic relations 
campaigns to sway the public and Congress costs quite a lot of money, and 
it is highly professional and polished. See:

Fusion Power Associates
2 Professional Drive, Suite 248
Gaithersburg, MD 20879
phone: (301) 258-0545
fax: (301) 975-9869
e-mail: fpa compuserve.com
web: http://fusionpower.org

(They used to have a nasty dig at cold fusion at this site, but I cannot 
find it.)

It is ironic that the hot fusion people accused CF researchers of promoting 
themselves, supposedly in violation of traditional ethics. Actually, self 
promotion and dazzling the public has been an essential part of science 
since Galileo.

The JCF organizers do hope to publish some of the viewgraphs (slides, or 
"OHP") on the Internet again, in lieu of a Proceedings.

- Jed

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	Dear vo... and Jed,


	Can you please send... or find someone to send ..please
	an "how to do it for dummies" to show someone who has hotmail how
to turn off the HTML generator....

	This is NOT me.... so I will be forwarding it along and do not
know the skill level of the potential recipient.


			Thanks,
							J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  5 13:51:14 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Celani's comments at JCF3 . . .
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I wrote:

>Ralstonia is a remarkably hardly bacteria.

Meant "hardy;" strong, resilient, stalwart. Fortunately, Ralstonia cannot 
infect humans or animals.

As Celani reported last year, in another study they are investigating the 
possibility of generating large amounts of free hydrogen from the 
Ralstonia's metabolism in the presence of light. This may be a good solar 
energy source in arid countries.

He also mentioned that "some kind of bacteria 'fermentation'" might be 
confused with low level CF excess heat, in cells with a large amount of 
electrolyte (~1 liter) in which the bacteria can thrive. Most CF cells have 
less than a liter, and enough lithium to kill Ralstonia.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  5 20:00:31 2001
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	We were able to see northern lights in Dayton Ohio area this
evening.... pink, green on top.  Time about 10:20 pm.  Visible to the
North East for over 30 minutes.

			


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On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 11:52:06AM -0700, Edmund Storms wrote:
> I recommend the National Instruments (800 433-3488) DA card using LabView=
 as
> the software.  While this combination is rather expensive, it allows data=
 from
> DC to MHz to be taken on 16 to hundreds of channels while doing any kind =
of
> calculation and plotting the data in real time.  The card can also be use=
d to
> run the experiment.  Either a PC or a Mac can be used.
>=20
> Ed Storms

Hi Ed,

How much does this combination cost, and is the protocol API public, or
do I have to use their software?

Joe

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  6 07:17:29 2001
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Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 10:14:36 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Celani describes lab bioremediation
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I asked Francesco Celani how they plan to purify water with Ralstonia. I 
said "I presume you filter the water to hold back the bacteria." He said 
that is "almost correct," meaning that is how it would be done on a large 
scale. For now, they are verifying the process with an elaborate, 
expensive, small scale method:

". . . to validate our experiments we used the "standard ISO 2002" 
ultra-centrifugation methods (very-very expensive!!!), HNO3 (65%, 80 deg C, 
2 hours chemical attack of bacteria bodies) dissolution, ICP-MS analysis. 
The analysis were performed by a third-part, standard ISO 9002
Laboratory (the 'Centro Sviluppo Materiali').

After the results of Italian National Health Institute about "safety in open
field use" we will try to develop a more economically efficient method."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  6 08:16:54 2001
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Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 11:14:22 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Taubes writes about skepticism
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I hesitate to bring this up . . . See:

http://www.techreview.com/magazine/nov01/insight.asp

Naturally, I think he couldn't be more wrong. He misses the point. There 
was no opposition to the DNA hypothesis because it did not threaten 
anyone's funding. There was no competing, established theory to explain 
cell replication, and no major projects. Opposition to new ideas is 
proportional to financial interest. Most people put money first, above 
everything. Everything else, including truth, professional responsibility, 
the needs of the public, patriotism, academic ethics and pollution is 
secondary. That isn't to say people will never promote the truth or act 
responsible. They will, as long as it does not cost them a great deal of 
money or threaten their livelihood.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  6 08:48:15 2001
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Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:45:53 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Biological transmutations site
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I met Dr. Pappas when he spoke at the INE conference in the mid '90's 
his website at   www.papimi.gr proports to be about biological 
transmutations. The links are in the gray area to the right of the 
page.  I wrote the doctor an email inquiring about the 
transmutations and haven't received a reply. If anyone has any 
insights into this, please post them.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  6 09:00:49 2001
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Subject: Re: Taubes writes about skepticism
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On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I hesitate to bring this up . . . See:
> 
> http://www.techreview.com/magazine/nov01/insight.asp
> 
> Naturally, I think he couldn't be more wrong. He misses the point. There 
> was no opposition to the DNA hypothesis because it did not threaten 
> anyone's funding. There was no competing, established theory to explain 
> cell replication, and no major projects. Opposition to new ideas is 
> proportional to financial interest. Most people put money first, above 
> everything. 

[snip]

Yes, this financial interest is called "bias". Some people are good enough
to not let personal bias influence their thinking. 

Note Taubes, who's fame and fortune is dependent on "debunking" things,
shows his lack of scientific mettle by first studying the stock market, and
then, because everyone says so, stupidly blows his savings doing the exact
opposite of what he found scientifically that he should be doing. He is a
sucker for popular opinion. He is more than willing to set science aside
if a community says so. In this case, he set aside science because the
investing community, which didn't study the issue, said otherwise. He's
also set aside science because the scientific community, which didn't
study cold fusion, said otherwise. 

He then stumbles and thinks that his error was that he wasn't skeptical
enough about stock market investments. Notice that his thinking is that
science and popular opinion, not based on science, are equally credible!
He has a great deal of reverence for popular opinion. He doesn't find his
error to be that he put the results of a scientific study on equal footing
with popular opinion, he finds that he wasn't skeptical enough, as if
there was NO difference between science and the unfounded popular opinion.
He should be thinking stick to the science and avoid unscientific
opinions!

Further errors in his paradigm is revealed when he says: 

"The reality is that vigorous skepticism aimed at a potential new paradigm
means one of two things and usually both:  first, that the spectacular
breakthrough or the wondrous paradigm is indeed too good to be true, and
second, that the reasons to be skeptical are very good ones. If the
evidence supporting the new paradigm reaches a high enough pitch, then the 
skepticism will fade."

Now, think about what this man is saying: if a new scientific finding is
too good to be true, disbelieve it until someone else brings more data to
prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is true and the skeptics are
proven wrong.

This is so counter to the philosophy of science, so offensive to rational
thought, such a disservice to the the true scientist that cannot be
described as anything but stupid. Does Taubes not see that his philosophy
requires that someone have an open mind, that someone continue to research
and apply the scientific method, for his intellectually bankrupt
philosophy to work? Who does Taubes think is finding the evidence that
proves the skeptic, who Taubes' admires, wrong? That someone is the real
scientist. The very person Taubes' has ridiculed with his silly philosophy
of skepticism. 

How is science to be done in a world where there are so many people like
Taubes trying to drag us back into the trees?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  6 09:22:10 2001
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Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:41:43 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
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John
	A massive solar flare occurred a few days ago. Tonight should be
good also. My astronomy prof said we may be able to see it in southern
California tonight.

Hank


On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 
> 	We were able to see northern lights in Dayton Ohio area this
> evening.... pink, green on top.  Time about 10:20 pm.  Visible to the
> North East for over 30 minutes.
> 
> 			
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  6 10:38:17 2001
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Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 13:35:21 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Particle beam CF in Japan
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Many of the JCF presentations, and much of the research in Japan is devoted 
to particle beam CF. I do not understand enough about this to describe it 
with confidence. Perhaps someone who knows about the subject would like to 
review the JCF3 Abstracts 21 through 25. Akito Takahashi, of Osaka National 
University, has been the main proponent of this approach, and most of the 
papers are by his graduate students. K. Kamada of the Wakasa-bay Energy 
Research Center also presented a paper on deuterons implanted in Al. 
Takahashi is one of the senior scientists at the 30-meter accelerator at 
the Department of Nuclear Engineering, so he is entitled to several hours a 
month on the beam. He published a paper about his fusion theory a few years 
ago:

Akito Takahashi, Katsuhiko Maruta, Kentaro Ochiai and Hiroyuki Miyamaru, 
"Detection of three-body deuteron fusion in titanium deuteride under the 
stimulation by a deuteron beam," Physics Letters A, Volume 255, Issues 1-2, 
3 May 1999, Pages 89-97

Here is the essence of this research, as I understand it. I hope this is 
not so oversimplified it is a caricature rather than a description.

A deuteron beam is used to load samples of Ti or Pd. This causes 
conventional fusion, as deuterons impact on ones that are already implanted 
in the metal, in "pile up" and "double pile up" reactions. Takahashi 
believes that in addition to these conventional reactions, another set of 
anomalous nuclear reactions are taking place, in which three deuteron fuse 
together. This three-body fusion reaction rate is 10E26 higher than 
predicted by conventional theory.

The difficult part of these experiments is to distinguish between the 
particles produced by the various conventional nuclear reactions and CF 
reactions. Charged particle Ek-detectors (silicon solid-state detectors - 
Si-SSD) are set at different angles around the sample, typically 90 and 120 
degrees from the deuteron beam path. Thin foil is often placed in front of 
the detectors to filter out some of the particles. In same cases, a thin 
detector is placed in front of a thicker one. In one experiment, 90 degrees 
away from the beam, a 26 micron slice of silicon intercepts 4.75 MeV 
helium-3, and it is placed in front of a 200 micron detector which captures 
4.75 MeV tritons. Energy spectra are produced with various peaks which are 
then identified, such as tritons from D-D collisions (on the low end at 
around 0.5 MeV), which are conventional, expected products. Unexpected 
peaks include helium-3 from 3D collisions (4.75 MeV) and t (also 4.75 MeV). 
The helium-3 signal is very close to the signal of protons from D-D pileup 
reactions, and thus, difficult to distinguish from it. (In particle physics 
jargon, it is "on the shoulder of" the D-D proton 2.5 MeV reaction.)

Essentially, the conventional reactions are identified and subtracted out 
from the curve, leaving evidence that Takahashi and his coworkers think 
points to a new type of 3-body D-D-D reaction, which should be largely 
aneutronic. He thinks similar reactions occur in CF cathodes and gas loaded 
finely divided particles.

Takahashi also believes that these fusion reactions give rise to heavy 
element fission, of a type he calls "multi-photon induced fission (MPIF)" 
according to his "selective channel scission (SCS)" model. This fission 
produces mainly stable, Beta decay products. This induced fission explains 
the transmuted elements found in used cathodes. Takahashi thinks it may be 
possible to "fine tune" the fission by lowering the energy from fusion, to 
prevent the formation of unstable (radioactive) species, although he says 
this is only speculation at this stage. Thus, it might be possible to 
reduce transmutation with a Pd cathode, which would save money because Pd 
is expensive and produces very little energy from fission compared to 
3-body fusion. On the other hand, it might be possible to increase fission 
with a uranium-235 target (that is stable, depleted uranium). The uranium 
fission would produce roughly ten times more energy than the cold fusion 
reaction which triggers it. None of the products from Pd or U would be 
radioactive.

It is dangerous to try to draw conclusions from the entire body of evidence 
from all CF research, because the experiments are such a heterogenous 
mixture of good and bad research. However, overall results do support 
Takahashi's conclusion.  (He must realize this, since his English is 
excellent and he is very knowledgeable about other people's research.) As 
far as I know, only one CF experiment produced many radioactive, 
short-lived heavy metal transmutations, performed by the late Kevin Wolf at 
TAMU. Many studies have produced stable isotopes. Because it is terribly 
difficult to distinguish between minute amounts of stable transmuted 
elements and contamination, I suspect that some of these findings are 
mistakes, but there are enough solid, rigorous results, especially from 
Mitsubishi, that I am now convinced transmutation does occur. Evidently, in 
nearly every case, it results in stable elements. That is good news for the 
prospect of making practical energy generating systems, but it is a little 
awkward for our present purposes. Radioactive species can be detected in 
tiny amounts, much smaller than spectroscopy can measure, and they are 
instantly and unambiguously distinguished from contamination, unless you 
are performing the experiment near the site of a catastrophic nuclear 
accident. If Takahashi does find a way to fine tune the reaction and force 
it to produce radioactive isotopes, he will do a great service to the field 
for two reasons: 1. The result would be very convincing, as Wolf's result 
was. 2. It would demonstrate what to avoid in a practical energy generating 
system, analogous to a test in which an engineer deliberately induces a 
boiler failure or cracked cylinder in a conventional engine.

A beam loading experiment is not intended to be a practical form of cold 
fusion, but rather a research tool to reveal the mechanism of the reaction 
by loading metal samples with deuterons rapidly and uniformly.

Newsweek recently wrote: "Takahashi says if he doesn't get good results in 
two years, he'll retire." This is not what Takahashi told the reporter. He 
said he will reach mandatory retirement in two years, when he must leave 
regardless of the state of his experiments. Takahashi already thinks he has 
"good results." Unfortunately his work has been largely ignored by other 
researchers, especially those who have access to large particle beams. 
Unless it is replicated, and others agree the results really do indicate a 
huge increase in anomalous three-body reactions, I fear this line of 
research will die out after Takahashi retires.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  6 11:17:34 2001
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Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:14:32 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Iwamura submission to the English JJAP
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Iwamura (Mitsubishi) says he submitted a paper to the English version of 
the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics (JJAP). As I noted earlier, JJAP 
has published several important papers about cold fusion recently, so I 
expect it will accept and publish this one, which ranks as one of the most 
important ever written.

The JJAP is Japan's leading journal of physics, and it is widely considered 
one of the world's top ten. Things like this should make Taubes and Robert 
Park nervous, but those people have Kelvar reenforced hides. Nothing short 
of a commercial product will shake them.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  6 12:57:23 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Iwamura submission to the English JJAP
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 07:56:10 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 06 Nov 2001 14:14:32 -0500:

>Iwamura (Mitsubishi) says he submitted a paper to the English version of 
>the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics (JJAP). As I noted earlier, JJAP 
>has published several important papers about cold fusion recently, so I 
>expect it will accept and publish this one, which ranks as one of the most 
>important ever written.
Hi Jed,

Could you give us another heads up if it is published?

TIA,


Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Particle beam CF in Japan
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 07:55:29 +1100
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 06 Nov 2001 13:35:21 -0500:
[snip]
>3-body fusion. On the other hand, it might be possible to increase fission 
>with a uranium-235 target (that is stable, depleted uranium). The uranium 

Actually, U-235 is the unstable explosive kind. U-238 is depleted
uranium.
[snip]
>Newsweek recently wrote: "Takahashi says if he doesn't get good results in 
>two years, he'll retire." This is not what Takahashi told the reporter. He 
>said he will reach mandatory retirement in two years, when he must leave 
>regardless of the state of his experiments. Takahashi already thinks he has 
>"good results." Unfortunately his work has been largely ignored by other 
>researchers, especially those who have access to large particle beams. 
>Unless it is replicated, and others agree the results really do indicate a 
>huge increase in anomalous three-body reactions, I fear this line of 
>research will die out after Takahashi retires.
[snip]
Perhaps he can still "hang around" even after retirement?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:26:27 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
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Jed
	Do Japanese Universitys have emeritus professors?
Hank

On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Many of the JCF presentations, and much of the research in Japan is devoted 
> to particle beam CF. I do not understand enough about this to describe it 
> with confidence. Perhaps someone who knows about the subject would like to 
> review the JCF3 Abstracts 21 through 25. Akito Takahashi, of Osaka National 
> University, has been the main proponent of this approach, and most of the 
> papers are by his graduate students. K. Kamada of the Wakasa-bay Energy 
> Research Center also presented a paper on deuterons implanted in Al. 
> Takahashi is one of the senior scientists at the 30-meter accelerator at 
> the Department of Nuclear Engineering, so he is entitled to several hours a 
> month on the beam. He published a paper about his fusion theory a few years 
> ago:
> 
> Akito Takahashi, Katsuhiko Maruta, Kentaro Ochiai and Hiroyuki Miyamaru, 
> "Detection of three-body deuteron fusion in titanium deuteride under the 
> stimulation by a deuteron beam," Physics Letters A, Volume 255, Issues 1-2, 
> 3 May 1999, Pages 89-97
> 
> Here is the essence of this research, as I understand it. I hope this is 
> not so oversimplified it is a caricature rather than a description.
> 
> A deuteron beam is used to load samples of Ti or Pd. This causes 
> conventional fusion, as deuterons impact on ones that are already implanted 
> in the metal, in "pile up" and "double pile up" reactions. Takahashi 
> believes that in addition to these conventional reactions, another set of 
> anomalous nuclear reactions are taking place, in which three deuteron fuse 
> together. This three-body fusion reaction rate is 10E26 higher than 
> predicted by conventional theory.
> 
> The difficult part of these experiments is to distinguish between the 
> particles produced by the various conventional nuclear reactions and CF 
> reactions. Charged particle Ek-detectors (silicon solid-state detectors - 
> Si-SSD) are set at different angles around the sample, typically 90 and 120 
> degrees from the deuteron beam path. Thin foil is often placed in front of 
> the detectors to filter out some of the particles. In same cases, a thin 
> detector is placed in front of a thicker one. In one experiment, 90 degrees 
> away from the beam, a 26 micron slice of silicon intercepts 4.75 MeV 
> helium-3, and it is placed in front of a 200 micron detector which captures 
> 4.75 MeV tritons. Energy spectra are produced with various peaks which are 
> then identified, such as tritons from D-D collisions (on the low end at 
> around 0.5 MeV), which are conventional, expected products. Unexpected 
> peaks include helium-3 from 3D collisions (4.75 MeV) and t (also 4.75 MeV). 
> The helium-3 signal is very close to the signal of protons from D-D pileup 
> reactions, and thus, difficult to distinguish from it. (In particle physics 
> jargon, it is "on the shoulder of" the D-D proton 2.5 MeV reaction.)
> 
> Essentially, the conventional reactions are identified and subtracted out 
> from the curve, leaving evidence that Takahashi and his coworkers think 
> points to a new type of 3-body D-D-D reaction, which should be largely 
> aneutronic. He thinks similar reactions occur in CF cathodes and gas loaded 
> finely divided particles.
> 
> Takahashi also believes that these fusion reactions give rise to heavy 
> element fission, of a type he calls "multi-photon induced fission (MPIF)" 
> according to his "selective channel scission (SCS)" model. This fission 
> produces mainly stable, Beta decay products. This induced fission explains 
> the transmuted elements found in used cathodes. Takahashi thinks it may be 
> possible to "fine tune" the fission by lowering the energy from fusion, to 
> prevent the formation of unstable (radioactive) species, although he says 
> this is only speculation at this stage. Thus, it might be possible to 
> reduce transmutation with a Pd cathode, which would save money because Pd 
> is expensive and produces very little energy from fission compared to 
> 3-body fusion. On the other hand, it might be possible to increase fission 
> with a uranium-235 target (that is stable, depleted uranium). The uranium 
> fission would produce roughly ten times more energy than the cold fusion 
> reaction which triggers it. None of the products from Pd or U would be 
> radioactive.
> 
> It is dangerous to try to draw conclusions from the entire body of evidence 
> from all CF research, because the experiments are such a heterogenous 
> mixture of good and bad research. However, overall results do support 
> Takahashi's conclusion.  (He must realize this, since his English is 
> excellent and he is very knowledgeable about other people's research.) As 
> far as I know, only one CF experiment produced many radioactive, 
> short-lived heavy metal transmutations, performed by the late Kevin Wolf at 
> TAMU. Many studies have produced stable isotopes. Because it is terribly 
> difficult to distinguish between minute amounts of stable transmuted 
> elements and contamination, I suspect that some of these findings are 
> mistakes, but there are enough solid, rigorous results, especially from 
> Mitsubishi, that I am now convinced transmutation does occur. Evidently, in 
> nearly every case, it results in stable elements. That is good news for the 
> prospect of making practical energy generating systems, but it is a little 
> awkward for our present purposes. Radioactive species can be detected in 
> tiny amounts, much smaller than spectroscopy can measure, and they are 
> instantly and unambiguously distinguished from contamination, unless you 
> are performing the experiment near the site of a catastrophic nuclear 
> accident. If Takahashi does find a way to fine tune the reaction and force 
> it to produce radioactive isotopes, he will do a great service to the field 
> for two reasons: 1. The result would be very convincing, as Wolf's result 
> was. 2. It would demonstrate what to avoid in a practical energy generating 
> system, analogous to a test in which an engineer deliberately induces a 
> boiler failure or cracked cylinder in a conventional engine.
> 
> A beam loading experiment is not intended to be a practical form of cold 
> fusion, but rather a research tool to reveal the mechanism of the reaction 
> by loading metal samples with deuterons rapidly and uniformly.
> 
> Newsweek recently wrote: "Takahashi says if he doesn't get good results in 
> two years, he'll retire." This is not what Takahashi told the reporter. He 
> said he will reach mandatory retirement in two years, when he must leave 
> regardless of the state of his experiments. Takahashi already thinks he has 
> "good results." Unfortunately his work has been largely ignored by other 
> researchers, especially those who have access to large particle beams. 
> Unless it is replicated, and others agree the results really do indicate a 
> huge increase in anomalous three-body reactions, I fear this line of 
> research will die out after Takahashi retires.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  6 13:50:10 2001
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Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 16:47:08 -0500
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Subject: Re: Particle beam CF in Japan
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Actually, U-235 is the unstable explosive kind. U-238 is depleted
>uranium.

Oops. Okay, let me check . . . Okay, here is the story. JCF3-20 is a study 
of conventional fission; Masayuki Ohta and Akito Takahashi,
"Analysis on fission in U-235 by SCS Model." In other words, they are 
trying to apply their (somewhat new) theory to conventional fission, and 
then backtrack to CF results fit studies mainly by Ohmori and Mizuno with 
CF in Pd, W and Au.

This presentation closed with some remarks about stable U, and the 
prospects for using it as fission fuel in a CF cell. Quoting the Abstract:

"The products characterizing the total chain yields for the respective mass 
numbers from thermal neutron fission in U-235 around two peaks of mass 
distribution is mainly stable or pure beta-decay isotope. Long-lived 
gamma-emitter is little in these products. If fission can be induced by 
e.g. photons at lower excitation energy (e.g. about 5 MeV for U-235) than 
that by neutron (i.e. 6.5 MeV for U-236), very clean fission is possible to 
induce. And prompt neutron production rate is expected to be less because 
the prompt neutron emission is much from the fission products around mass 
115 and 155."

 >Unless it is replicated, and others agree the results really do indicate a
> >huge increase in anomalous three-body reactions, I fear this line of
> >research will die out after Takahashi retires.
>[snip]
>Perhaps he can still "hang around" even after retirement?

No, not at a National University. Many Nat. U. professors migrate to other 
universities or teaching jobs, but when their time is up, they are pushed 
out. The only exception I have ever heard of is Arata, who has an office in 
the Osaka Nat. U. building named after himself. In American universities 
you sometimes see emeritus professors hanging around, but I do not think it 
is allowed in the Japanese National University system. They have such 
strong traditions of seniority, that would make the system even more 
constipated than it is.

In most Japanese organizations, until recently anyway, mandatory retirement 
ages were very low, typically 55 to 60. That was the only way to bring new 
blood into the organization, and more to the point, salaries were strictly 
by seniority, not merit, so organizations were anxious to get rid of their 
highest-paid tier of workers.

If it were not for emeritus professors, cold fusion would have been 
forgotten five years ago. One of them at JCF was doing a brave job trying 
to sort out the Brown's Gas claims, working on a shoestring. (Abstract #8). 
It is a shame to see such talent wasted on such a weak claim.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  7 07:48:55 2001
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	Jed,

	Can you put this bioremediation in context for us, please?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  7 08:26:33 2001
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Subject: Spoke with Honda Insight hybrid vehicle owner
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The other day I saw a Honda Insight hybrid automobile parked in front of my 
office. I left a business card on the windshield, and the owner later 
called me to share his impressions of the car. Here are some of his 
impressions. I have heard that acceleration is sluggish and performance is 
something of a compromise. I asked how well does the car do on Atlanta's 
highways, which are notorious for high speed tailgating, aggressive trucks, 
and other reckless drivers.

He said, "you have to consider the purpose and place. This is not a high 
performance vehicle." He uses it to commute downtown, usually over 
Atlanta's main highway I-85, or on surface streets. He has an Accord, too. 
The performance is not that different. He considers the Insight a 
completely satisfactory and practical means of transport, without 
limitations or complications. I did not get the sense he feels he is 
driving an experimental vehicle that needs special handling.

The Insight has a three-cylinder engine that is small and sluggish compared 
to an SUV, for example. The motor takes over the drive train directly in 
high gear, and during high speed acceleration the electric motor also 
contributes power. There are indicators showing remaining battery charge, 
and whether the battery is recharging or discharging (the "charge and 
assist indicator"). There is a little energy left over from the gas engine 
even at high speed. On the highway, once he settles into a steady cruising 
speed of 60 to 70 mph on a level road, the battery shows a slight positive 
recharge in progress. He has never seen the battery close to full 
discharge. On the other hand, he has not yet climbed a large hill. I 
mentioned that I have a 1994 Geo Metro, which goes 65 mph at top speed. I 
sometimes feel intimidated driving on Atlanta's highways in heavy traffic, 
and it was a challenge keeping up with traffic on Lookout Mountain in 
Chattanooga, TN.

I asked: "Overall it is safer than a motorcycle, isn't it?" Driver: "Yes, 
indeed. I have had one of them."

He said he was partly motivated to buy it to "do something for the 
environment." If everyone drove cars like this, we would cut our oil 
consumption in half. He has spent time in Europe, particularly Italy, and 
he says that shaped his perspective. In Europe fuel is expensive, parking 
space is limited, and people want cars as convenient tools, not social 
statements or off-road adventure fantasies.

I said I think more unfettered capitalist competition would have brought 
cars like this into the U.S. market sooner, and in larger numbers. 
Development has been impeded by both industry and government. He agreed.

For more information on the Insight, see:

http://www.honda2001.com./models/insight/index.html?honda=intro

The hybrid automobile is not a new idea. The first patent for one was 
issued in 1905. (See V. Wouk, "Hybrid Electric Vehicles," Scientific 
American, October 1977). I expect they became more practical with the 
invention of microcomputers.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  7 08:27:37 2001
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Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 11:26:28 -0500
To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Celani describes lab bioremediation
Cc: vortex-L eskimo.com
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John Schnurer wrote:

         Jed,
>         Can you put this bioremediation in context for us, please?

What do you mean? What questions do you have in mind?

I do not know much about it. I do have copies of Celani's viewgraphs from 
JCF2, with many technical details.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  7 11:03:41 2001
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Subject: Re: Spoke with Honda Insight hybrid vehicle owner
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I copied that message to Bill Moore, the editor of EVWorld.com. He responded:


Two words of advise after having driven my Insight a year and more than
12,000 miles.

"down shift"

The car has surprising pep if you down shift the car to 3rd for 
acceleration. Don't rely on the edrive alone or it will be sluggish.


- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  7 11:20:10 2001
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Subject: NPR Science Friday looks at wind energy and hydrogen
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Program can be heard at:

http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/totn/20011026.totn.ram

- JR

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Subject: Re: High Pressure Squeeze of DeuteroCarbons?
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 19:29:50 -0600
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When Jed posted that some of the CF work is pointing to
"3-body" interactions in the lattice, it comes to mind that
solid Deuterated Carbon compounds can be put in High
Pressure apparatus and subjected to Megabar pressures (~ 15 million pounds/square
inch) or so.

http://www.superconductors.org/sulfur.htm

Even "Deutero-Teflon" with it's fluorine atoms could be tried, as well as the solid
Deutero-Paraffins, and other solids that have the Hydrogen replaced a Deuteron.

Lots of choices.

Might be a connection to Les Case's reported Deuterium-Carbon-Pd OU effects here.

Regards,   Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  7 19:32:44 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: High Pressure Squeeze of DeuteroCarbons?
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 20:28:46 -0600
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Here's a source for all kinds of Deuterated Carbon compounds.
http://www.cdniso.com/englishversion/

Pressing a mix of a Deuterated Carbon "Wax" or such, with a metal powder at very high
pressure should make
some interesting "Deuteride Alloys" for CF Research.

Regards, Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  8 04:24:39 2001
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Subject: Re: Fabrication of "Polarite" Materials in Microgravity
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 05:19:13 -0600
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Conclusions from the Wave-Circle Model and related experiments, suggest that materials
can be "Gravity Polarized" in a microgravity environment.

IOW, these materials can be pre-polarized so that in one orientation wrt a gravity
field they will be essentially weightless and in another superheavy.

This based on the assumption that the nuclei of all materials act like tiny magnetic
dipoles and always align to attract in a gravity field, but in a microgravity
environment
they can be aligned by strong electric fields and high pressure/temperature.

Once aligned and "cured," the "Polarite" can be used in the fabrication of spacecraft
and other vehicles, as long as they are gyro stabilized from flipping over and
becoming superheavy.

As soon as the International Space Station is fully operational, this conjecture can
be put to the test.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  8 08:00:51 2001
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Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 10:57:40 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: California energy crisis and Enron whither away
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As I predicted here months ago, the California energy crisis has come to an 
abrupt halt, and the state may soon face an energy glut instead, thanks to 
conservation. Even before this year, California residents conserved more 
than the national average, but when the crisis hit they had no trouble 
reducing consumption by another 10 or 20%. Nationwide, I believe consumers 
and corporations could reduce energy consumption by 30 to 40% with cost 
effective measures; that is, by taking steps that would cost less than 
expanding the energy supply. There have been many estimates of this, some 
by coal companies, some by the DoE, with widely varying numbers. Based on 
the California experience, I am guessing the actual numbers are 30 to 40%.

I also predicted that some major energy companies would soon be in deep 
trouble, because they upset consumers and regulators by gouging -- that is, 
by taking extreme advantage of distressed conditions and unfairly 
withholding supplies. A wise corporate executive will not press every 
advantage. Temporary imbalances are self correcting, and once they are 
correct, customers will take revenge on companies that squeezed them 
unreasonably.

The most powerful and influential energy company is Enron. It has close 
ties to the administration, and it was immensely profitable. That did not 
protect it from the wrath of customers. It is now on the verge of 
bankruptcy. A competing company one-forth the size of Enron purchased it 
yesterday, for about one-tenth of the market value reached at the height of 
the crisis. This demonstrates the power of public opinion. The consumer 
rules the nation, whenever he chooses to. If consumers become aware that 
cold fusion is real, they will insist it be implemented, even though the 
administration, the oil companies, the DoE and many other powerful 
institutions will fight prevent that from happening.

See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/04/national/04ENER.html?searchpv=past7days

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/08/business/08POWE.html

Some quotes:

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Once Braced for a Power Shortage, California Now Finds Itself With a Surplus
By TIMOTHY EGAN

. . . rather than days of blackouts, from early May on there has not been a 
single hour with the lights out since then, and Californians have led the 
nation in energy conservation. Instead of a scarcity of power, California 
now has too much, and the state has been selling electricity at a loss or 
even giving it away.

But if California proved that it could defy the dire predictions and make 
of mockery of the energy-guzzling cliché often applied here, the state is 
still stuck with a huge burden from its disastrous experiment in power 
deregulation.

At the core of California's problem is this mystery: How could the state 
use less electricity this year and last and still pay $35 billion more for 
it than it did in 1999? . . .


"People realize now that this was a monumental scam," said Gov. Gray Davis 
of California in an interview, referring to the freewheeling energy market 
that ended earlier this year.

Records show that on some days during the worst of the power troubles, up 
to a third of the electricity that should have been available was taken off 
line, creating an artificial shortage that drove up prices, said Loretta 
Lynch, president of the California Public Utilities Commission.
"We had plenty of electric power available," Ms. Lynch said. "But we didn't 
have a cop on the beat." . . .

Last May, as he unveiled his energy policy, President Bush said the nation 
was facing the worst energy shortage since the Arab oil embargo of the 
1970's. His plan called for building one new power plant every week for the 
next 20 years, and drilling for oil in new places like the Arctic National 
Wildlife Refuge.

At the time, Vice President Dick Cheney said blackouts were a certainty in 
California and was dismissive of the conservation effort. . . .

The most optimistic projections had it that 10 percent of ratepayers would 
take advantage of the pay-to- conserve program. This week, the state 
released figures showing that more than a third of eligible ratepayers cut 
their electric use by 20 percent.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Cold fusion would eliminate this kind of nonsense, along with many other 
nuisances. Good riddance to Enron! I look forward to seeing Exxon, Saudi 
Arabia and Iran go down the tubes with them. Society has suffered  far too 
long from their machinations and their inefficient, polluting 19th century 
technology. I pity the people who will lose their jobs, but the 
corporations and Sheiks deserve what is coming to them.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  8 10:26:49 2001
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From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: California energy crisis and Enron whither away
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Jed
	As an LA resident, my incremental rate went up to $.253/kwh last
summer. We set our thermostat at 85 degrees, and sat around in our
underware. I started charging my car at school instead of at home, when I
could. 

Hank

On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> As I predicted here months ago, the California energy crisis has come to an 
> abrupt halt, and the state may soon face an energy glut instead, thanks to 
> conservation. Even before this year, California residents conserved more 
> than the national average, but when the crisis hit they had no trouble 
> reducing consumption by another 10 or 20%. Nationwide, I believe consumers 
> and corporations could reduce energy consumption by 30 to 40% with cost 
> effective measures; that is, by taking steps that would cost less than 
> expanding the energy supply. There have been many estimates of this, some 
> by coal companies, some by the DoE, with widely varying numbers. Based on 
> the California experience, I am guessing the actual numbers are 30 to 40%.
> 
> I also predicted that some major energy companies would soon be in deep 
> trouble, because they upset consumers and regulators by gouging -- that is, 
> by taking extreme advantage of distressed conditions and unfairly 
> withholding supplies. A wise corporate executive will not press every 
> advantage. Temporary imbalances are self correcting, and once they are 
> correct, customers will take revenge on companies that squeezed them 
> unreasonably.
> 
> The most powerful and influential energy company is Enron. It has close 
> ties to the administration, and it was immensely profitable. That did not 
> protect it from the wrath of customers. It is now on the verge of 
> bankruptcy. A competing company one-forth the size of Enron purchased it 
> yesterday, for about one-tenth of the market value reached at the height of 
> the crisis. This demonstrates the power of public opinion. The consumer 
> rules the nation, whenever he chooses to. If consumers become aware that 
> cold fusion is real, they will insist it be implemented, even though the 
> administration, the oil companies, the DoE and many other powerful 
> institutions will fight prevent that from happening.
> 
> See:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/04/national/04ENER.html?searchpv=past7days
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/08/business/08POWE.html
> 
> Some quotes:
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Once Braced for a Power Shortage, California Now Finds Itself With a Surplus
> By TIMOTHY EGAN
> 
> . . . rather than days of blackouts, from early May on there has not been a 
> single hour with the lights out since then, and Californians have led the 
> nation in energy conservation. Instead of a scarcity of power, California 
> now has too much, and the state has been selling electricity at a loss or 
> even giving it away.
> 
> But if California proved that it could defy the dire predictions and make 
> of mockery of the energy-guzzling cliché often applied here, the state is 
> still stuck with a huge burden from its disastrous experiment in power 
> deregulation.
> 
> At the core of California's problem is this mystery: How could the state 
> use less electricity this year and last and still pay $35 billion more for 
> it than it did in 1999? . . .
> 
> 
> "People realize now that this was a monumental scam," said Gov. Gray Davis 
> of California in an interview, referring to the freewheeling energy market 
> that ended earlier this year.
> 
> Records show that on some days during the worst of the power troubles, up 
> to a third of the electricity that should have been available was taken off 
> line, creating an artificial shortage that drove up prices, said Loretta 
> Lynch, president of the California Public Utilities Commission.
> "We had plenty of electric power available," Ms. Lynch said. "But we didn't 
> have a cop on the beat." . . .
> 
> Last May, as he unveiled his energy policy, President Bush said the nation 
> was facing the worst energy shortage since the Arab oil embargo of the 
> 1970's. His plan called for building one new power plant every week for the 
> next 20 years, and drilling for oil in new places like the Arctic National 
> Wildlife Refuge.
> 
> At the time, Vice President Dick Cheney said blackouts were a certainty in 
> California and was dismissive of the conservation effort. . . .
> 
> The most optimistic projections had it that 10 percent of ratepayers would 
> take advantage of the pay-to- conserve program. This week, the state 
> released figures showing that more than a third of eligible ratepayers cut 
> their electric use by 20 percent.
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Cold fusion would eliminate this kind of nonsense, along with many other 
> nuisances. Good riddance to Enron! I look forward to seeing Exxon, Saudi 
> Arabia and Iran go down the tubes with them. Society has suffered  far too 
> long from their machinations and their inefficient, polluting 19th century 
> technology. I pity the people who will lose their jobs, but the 
> corporations and Sheiks deserve what is coming to them.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  8 10:56:56 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Electrogravity Effects with Electret Cubes?
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:47:39 -0600
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A recipe for making an Electret consists of melting a mixture of 45% Carnaubra wax,
45% white resin, and 10% white beeswax and allowing it to harden while it is exposed
to an intense electric field.

Based on the Biefield-Brown Effect, one might see a difference in weight when a cube
of this is placed in different orientations on a sensitive scale.

One might try this using a melted down plastic milk carton or pop bottles.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  8 11:14:32 2001
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Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 14:13:12 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: California energy crisis and Enron whither away
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hank scudder wrote:

>As an LA resident, my incremental rate went up to $.253/kwh last
>summer. We set our thermostat at 85 degrees, and sat around in our
>underware. I started charging my car at school instead of at home, when I 
>could.

Goodness! If that is what most people in California did to cut energy use, 
it was a hardship. However, I followed the story in the San Francisco 
Chronicle and other CA newspapers, and I got the impression that most 
people found more comfortable ways to reduce energy, without sacrificing 
the American Dream or American Hygiene.

Americans often dislike of heat, sweat and body odor. I grew up before air 
conditioners become common, in Washington DC and Okayama Japan, where 
temperatures are often above 85 and the humidity is . . . like a swamp. I 
suppose nowadays houses do not have shady porches and trees, making it 
harder to bear high temperatures, but heat never bothered me. Like FDR, I 
prefer to leave the air conditioner off. But I would not want to impose my 
preferences on people. I would never accuse them of being wimps because 
they prefer to live at 72 deg F all year long. Many conservationists 
endorse the "suffering is good for you" hair shirt philosophy, and they 
want to impose it on the rest of society. Politically, that is a stupid 
approach. People want both comfort and low energy prices. They deserve 
whatever they want, so let us look for a technical solution. Life is hard 
enough. We do not need to make it harder.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  8 13:00:11 2001
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Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 14:18:54 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: California energy crisis and Enron whither away
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Jed
	Hardship is relative: When I was a kid we didn't have
air conditioners either, and in the summer we used to open the fire
hydrants, and run through the spray in our bathing suits, until the police
came and turned them off. Hardship is relative: I love watching my wife
move around in her underwear. 85 is tolerable, more then that is hot. The
price of electricity was set at $0.253 above the average of twice what
the average usage without air conditioning was the previous year. It
ranged from $0.12 for the first 750 kwh, to $0.15/kwh between 750kwh and
1500 kwh, and $0.253 above that, if my memory serves. In the spring and
fall,  I run about 1500 kwh per month with the refrigerator, washer and
dryer. The polititions think air conditioning is a luxury! 

Hank


 On Thu, 8 Nov
2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> hank scudder wrote:
> 
> >As an LA resident, my incremental rate went up to $.253/kwh last
> >summer. We set our thermostat at 85 degrees, and sat around in our
> >underware. I started charging my car at school instead of at home, when I 
> >could.
> 
> Goodness! If that is what most people in California did to cut energy use, 
> it was a hardship. However, I followed the story in the San Francisco 
> Chronicle and other CA newspapers, and I got the impression that most 
> people found more comfortable ways to reduce energy, without sacrificing 
> the American Dream or American Hygiene.
> 
> Americans often dislike of heat, sweat and body odor. I grew up before air 
> conditioners become common, in Washington DC and Okayama Japan, where 
> temperatures are often above 85 and the humidity is . . . like a swamp. I 
> suppose nowadays houses do not have shady porches and trees, making it 
> harder to bear high temperatures, but heat never bothered me. Like FDR, I 
> prefer to leave the air conditioner off. But I would not want to impose my 
> preferences on people. I would never accuse them of being wimps because 
> they prefer to live at 72 deg F all year long. Many conservationists 
> endorse the "suffering is good for you" hair shirt philosophy, and they 
> want to impose it on the rest of society. Politically, that is a stupid 
> approach. People want both comfort and low energy prices. They deserve 
> whatever they want, so let us look for a technical solution. Life is hard 
> enough. We do not need to make it harder.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  8 19:09:01 2001
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  9 13:38:02 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Nov 09, 2001
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 16:27:08 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 9 Nov 01   Washington, DC

1. SECRECY: BUSH ASSUMES CONTROL OF PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS.  The
Presidential Records Act of 1978 called for release of most
records 12 years after a president has left office.  However,
President Bush has issued an executive order that reinterprets
the Act to allow a sitting president to block the release of
records of a former president, even if the former president wants
them released.  Dismayed by the order, some historians suggest
that at this critical time the order may be intended to bury past
"dirty tricks" employed by the U.S.  The Reagan Administration
issued a virtually identical order in the 1980s to support claims
of privilege by Richard Nixon, but it was rejected by the courts. 
This new order should meet a similar fate.  The right to know is
easily relinquished in times of crisis but difficult to regain.  

2. NUCLEAR MATERIALS: DOE SAYS "SUBSTANTIAL" AMOUNTS ARE MISSING. 
An audit, begun long before Sept 11, was unable to account for a
lot of the plutonium and uranium loaned to government agencies,
universities, private companies, and hospitals. Sloppy
bookkeeping, rather than deliberate diversion, isx the most
likely explanation, but the war on terrorism has intensified
concerns about control of nuclear materials, and the Department
of Energy is not taking the missing material lightly.  

3. ISS: FINGER POINTING HAS BEGUN IN THE SPACE STATION DEBACLE. 
The findings of the International Space Station Management and
Cost Evaluation Task Force seems to have come as a shock to ISS
supporters (WN 2 Nov 01).  It was left to Sherwood Boehlert (R-
NY), chair of the Science Committee, to explain why we are doing
this: "The nation has already pumped almost $30B into the space
station.  We need to salvage that investment."  Great argument!
Sink another $30B into it and the justification will be twice as
strong.  Meanwhile, Dave Weldon (R-FL), whose district includes
Kennedy Space Center, accused President Bush of "killing space
exploration" by not making more funds available for ISS.  He may
be confusing exploration with human presence, but as near as I
can tell, even with humans we have exhaustively explored low-
Earth orbit.  The APS explained 10 years ago that "scientific
justification is lacking for a permanently manned space station
in earth orbit."  http://aps.org/statements/91.2.html

4. SPACE EXPLORATION: SOLAR-WIND PARTICLE COLLECTION IN TROUBLE.
Scientists had planned for the Genesis space probe to spend 26
months collecting atoms from the solar wind for return to Earth. 
That is real science.  It would be NASA's first sample-return
mission since Apollo.  The Soviets, of course, returned moon
samples as recently as 1976.  Alas, a malfunctioning battery
shield may force a revision of the Genesis mission.  The good
news is that the three year mission cost a mere $259M. 

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  9 20:10:35 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: [THEORY] Hydrino fusion
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 15:07:21 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

When an AC current is passed through a toroidal coil, the resulting
magnetic field will generate eddy currents in a metal plate which will
then float above the coil.
Suppose that an electron can act as a superconducting plate.
A nucleus that has just absorbed a proton will be in an excited state,
and the resulting internal vibrations will result in a vibrating
magnetic field. If the superconducting electron is close to the nucleus,
then it may be repelled, in the same way as the plate is repelled from
the toroidal coil, converting the excitation energy of the nucleus into
kinetic energy of the electron in the process.

When the proton comes from a severely shrunken hydrino, and the electron
from the hydrino gets left behind, close to the nucleus, this could be a
mechanism for essentially clean fusion, that only produced energetic
electrons.

Calculations revealing why it couldn't work, are invited.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 10 04:52:01 2001
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Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 07:52:58 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [THEORY] Hydrino fusion
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	Dear Robin,


	You begin by passing AC through a toroidal coil.  Then progress to
the observation of a metal plate being repelled by these alternating
fields.

	The repulsion of the metal plate is due to Foucault or "eddy"
(meaning like tiny spinning currents) induced in the plate.   None of this
is the mechanism of a superconductor's Meissner effect.  

	If you use a pole piece for an electromagnet
which has a ring shape ... which is different than a toroidal coil ....
there can be more effective repulsion of a flat metal plate.  Sometimes	
there are demonstrations of flat plate repulsion which show a circular
pole piece and this can often appear or LOOK as though a
toroid with a winding wrapped through it does,... similar to as toroidal
transformer ... but the two are not the same.  In general a toroidal
winding internally expresses field and is not the most effective external,
and hence flat plate repulsion ... source.
 
	Maybe we should examine the beginning of this mind experiment....
keeping in mind the action which causes the flat plate to be repelled.


	It is an idea.

	

On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> When an AC current is passed through a toroidal coil, the resulting
> magnetic field will generate eddy currents in a metal plate which will
> then float above the coil.
> Suppose that an electron can act as a superconducting plate.
> A nucleus that has just absorbed a proton will be in an excited state,
> and the resulting internal vibrations will result in a vibrating
> magnetic field. If the superconducting electron is close to the nucleus,
> then it may be repelled, in the same way as the plate is repelled from
> the toroidal coil, converting the excitation energy of the nucleus into
> kinetic energy of the electron in the process.
> 
> When the proton comes from a severely shrunken hydrino, and the electron
> from the hydrino gets left behind, close to the nucleus, this could be a
> mechanism for essentially clean fusion, that only produced energetic
> electrons.
> 
> Calculations revealing why it couldn't work, are invited.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 10 08:35:13 2001
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Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:29:07 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [THEORY] Hydrino fusion
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From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

> A nucleus that has just absorbed a proton will be in an excited state...

Do you really mean proton, not photon? There aren't any probable paths for
any nucleus to absorb a low energy proton - and even with high energy or
near relativistic protons, spallation is far more likely, except for the
single element: boron. The B+H reaction has been tried for years and the
parameters of those experiments could have also produced hydrinos, if they
were that easy to produce, but yet there have been no published anomalies
with boron over the years. So you can't just substitute a hydrino for a
proton in some real world scenario and hope for the best (wouldn't it be
nice?).

Is there any evidence, any evidence at all,  that a putative hydrino, no
matter how shrunken, can be absorbed by any other nucleus, or even fuse with
another hydrino? At least with deuterinos, there is some underlying
rationale and known pathway for fusion (or are you categorizing all shrunken
hydrogen isotopes as hydrinos?)

>When the proton comes from a severely shrunken hydrino, and the electron
from the hydrino gets left behind...

If you agree that there is no present evidence that fusion even occurs, then
why wouldn't a less energetic alternative be more probable? Why wouldn't the
hydrino first absorb its own electron, a form of EC, and become a neutron or
neutrino?  That would eliminate the problem of how a hydrino could first
make it through the inner orbital of the candidate atom.

Or, even if the candidate for such a "close encounter" between a fully
shrunken hydrino and its surroundings - were just a hydrogen ion, why
wouldn't the result of that encounter be a scattering event with a
characteristic photon emission - or if not scattering why wouldn't the
result be at best, two hydrinos both at intermediate shrinkage levels,
instead of a deuteron? You seem to be wanting to piggy-back two highly
improbable events on top of each other to accomplish the desired aim (not
that isn't also one of my favorite ways to day dream!)

J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 10 15:53:47 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Particle beam CF in Japan
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 10:50:29 +1100
Organization: Improving
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References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106132817.03644ce0 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011106132817.03644ce0@pop.mindspring.com> <fdigutkqg4v8aut9imc5bkqp1gnf4dpchu@4ax.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011106162858.0364b918@pop.mindspring.com>
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 06 Nov 2001 16:47:08 -0500:
[snip]
>If it were not for emeritus professors, cold fusion would have been 
>forgotten five years ago. One of them at JCF was doing a brave job trying 
>to sort out the Brown's Gas claims, working on a shoestring. (Abstract #8). 
>It is a shame to see such talent wasted on such a weak claim.
>
>- Jed
The claim may have been weak, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the
money was wasted. There is an excellent chance that some remediation
does in fact take place with Rhodes' gas, especially as hydrino
formation is very much a possibility (both during generation, and during
combustion).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 10 21:00:53 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [THEORY] Hydrino fusion
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:57:24 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:29:07 -0800:

>From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>
>> A nucleus that has just absorbed a proton will be in an excited state...
>
>Do you really mean proton, not photon? 

I meant proton (as written).

>There aren't any probable paths for
>any nucleus to absorb a low energy proton

A severely shrunken hydrino allows protons to approach sufficiently
close for the absorption time to be reduced to levels where fusion
becomes a reality.
Even if the radius of the hydrino only reduces proportionate to the
quantum number, as Mills purports, the minimum size achievable for a
hydrino would be about 52900/137 ~ 386 fm. Muon induced fusion happens
in less than a nanosecond (probably far less in fact) at 
52900/207 ~ 255 fm, so hydrino induced fusion should still happen at
reasonable rates. 
If Mills is wrong, and the radius shrinks as the *square* of the quantum
number, then far smaller hydrinos are possible, and fusion would be even
faster than when catalyzed by muons.
[snip]
>The B+H reaction has been tried for years and the
>parameters of those experiments could have also produced hydrinos, if they
>were that easy to produce, but yet there have been no published anomalies
>with boron over the years. So you can't just substitute a hydrino for a
>proton in some real world scenario and hope for the best (wouldn't it be
>nice?).

I suspect that the number of hydrinos formed in P+B experiments would
have been so small as to have gone completely unnoticed, because the
conditions in such experiments don't favour the formation of hydrinos.
Furthermore, they need to be confined for considerable periods in order
to ensure that they undergo lots of shrinkage reactions to reduce them
to a satisfactory size. 

>
>Is there any evidence, any evidence at all,  that a putative hydrino, no
>matter how shrunken, can be absorbed by any other nucleus, or even fuse with
>another hydrino? At least with deuterinos, there is some underlying
>rationale and known pathway for fusion (or are you categorizing all shrunken
>hydrogen isotopes as hydrinos?)

Yes, for the sake of simplicity.

>
>>When the proton comes from a severely shrunken hydrino, and the electron
>from the hydrino gets left behind...
>
>If you agree that there is no present evidence that fusion even occurs, then
>why wouldn't a less energetic alternative be more probable? Why wouldn't the
>hydrino first absorb its own electron, a form of EC, and become a neutron or
>neutrino?  That would eliminate the problem of how a hydrino could first
>make it through the inner orbital of the candidate atom.

It can't become a neutron, because it has at least 780 keV too little
energy, and it can't become a neutrino, because a neutrino is a lepton.
However as a small neutral heavy particle (akin to a large neutron), it
shouldn't have too much trouble muscling it's way into an atom, after
all, negative muons and neutrons both seem to manage the feat without
any trouble (one charged, the other not).
Furthermore, as mentioned above, I suspect that stripping reactions
could well be the existing evidence. These reactions have long been
considered anomalous, and hydrinos would provide a very neat solution to
the anomaly.

>
>Or, even if the candidate for such a "close encounter" between a fully
>shrunken hydrino and its surroundings - were just a hydrogen ion, why
>wouldn't the result of that encounter be a scattering event with a
>characteristic photon emission 

In this case, that would probably also be a possible, or even likely
outcome. The likelihood of a fusion event however would increase with
the shrinkage of the hydrino.

>- or if not scattering why wouldn't the
>result be at best, two hydrinos both at intermediate shrinkage levels,
>instead of a deuteron? You seem to be wanting to piggy-back two highly
>improbable events on top of each other to accomplish the desired aim (not
>that isn't also one of my favorite ways to day dream!)

I'm not trying to achieve H+H fusion (too improbable to bother with).
However combinations with other isotopes would be interesting, and
possibly even H + some other atom.
(Possible if the radius goes as the square of the quantum number).

There is however strong evidence that the mechanism I proposed doesn't
work anyway, and that is the fact that it doesn't happen with muon
catalyzed fusion. While strong this evidence is however not conclusive.
If the mechanism I proposed fills in a niche qua reaction time, between
particle emission and photon emission as a means of deexcitation of the
nucleus, then it would not likely be noticed in reactions where particle
emission is possible e.g. D + D -> T + P.

However it might show up in a reaction like D + He4 -> Li6, where it
would be characterised by the appearance of energetic electrons rather
than gamma ray emission. 

(Neither D + He4 -> He5 + P, nor D + He4 -> Li5 + n, are possible).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [THEORY] Hydrino fusion
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:17:44 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  John Schnurer's message of Sat, 10 Nov 2001 07:52:58 -0500:

>
>
>
>	Dear Robin,
>
>
>	You begin by passing AC through a toroidal coil.  Then progress to
>the observation of a metal plate being repelled by these alternating
>fields.
>
>	The repulsion of the metal plate is due to Foucault or "eddy"
>(meaning like tiny spinning currents) induced in the plate.   None of this
>is the mechanism of a superconductor's Meissner effect.  

I see both the Meissner effect and the eddy current repulsion as
examples of Lenz' law. However it isn't necessary that they be the same.
It is only necessary that a superconductor be a good conductor of
electricity, such that it may function as a metal plate. Besides, the
Meissner effect would also result in repulsion of the electron. The real
question is IMO whether or not the effect would be strong enough to
counter the electrostatic attraction of the new nucleus.

>
>	If you use a pole piece for an electromagnet
>which has a ring shape ... which is different than a toroidal coil ....
>there can be more effective repulsion of a flat metal plate.  Sometimes	
>there are demonstrations of flat plate repulsion which show a circular
>pole piece and this can often appear or LOOK as though a
>toroid with a winding wrapped through it does,... similar to as toroidal
>transformer ... but the two are not the same.  In general a toroidal
>winding internally expresses field and is not the most effective external,
>and hence flat plate repulsion ... source.

For a DC current this is certainly true, however an AC current results
in a *changing* field, and this has no trouble inducing eddy currents,
as you pointed out above.

> 
>	Maybe we should examine the beginning of this mind experiment....
>keeping in mind the action which causes the flat plate to be repelled.
>

Nevertheless, I'm more interested in whether *any* such mechanism might
be possible, than in fixing my attention on a specific mechanism.
(IOW I'm more interested in the end than the means).
>
>	It is an idea.

Thanks.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 11 19:24:33 2001
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 22:21:20 EST
Subject: BBC and Casimir
To: Puthoff aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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On Friday night I listened to a show on the BBC World service. The show was 
an interview with David Bishop.   David Bishop invented a small machine that 
detected the Casimir force.  David Bishop Claimed that no excess energy can 
be produced by such a machine.  His results are reported in the Journal 
Nature.  Audio transcripts may be heard on the BBC world service.  I did not 
get the URL and I could not locate the show on the BBC.  

Frank Z

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 02:11:11 2001
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References: <3.0.1.32.20010729131751.0180955c pop3.club-internet.fr>
Subject: Re: Jean-Pierre Vigier & cold fusion (pt 1)
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To Jean-Pierre Lentin,

29 July 2001 you send a message to the vortex group
that you interviewed J.P Vigier and that the article probably
would be online  www.sciences-et-avenir.com. 
Unfortunately I couldn`t find the article. 
Please let me know where the article was published.

Thank you for your cooperation,

Peter van Noorden



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 02:13:54 2001
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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:02:34 +0000
From: Robert Chambers <robert.chambers baesystems.com>
Subject: Re: BBC and Casimir
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: FZNIDARSIC aol.com, Puthoff@aol.com
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>Audio transcripts may be heard on the BBC world service.  I did not 
>get the URL and I could not locate the show on the BBC.  

The URL is http://www.bb.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/sci-act.shtml and it's 
available to listen (in RealAudio format) until 10:30am GMT on Saturday.

Other useful URLs include:

http://www.physicstoday.org/pt/vol-54/iss-10/p38.html (initial "www" may not be 
necessary)

http://www.lucent.com/press/0201/010209.bla.html

Rob



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 04:06:49 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger suite224.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        <Little earthtech.org>, <Puthoff@earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: The Role of Atmospheric (free) Electrons in CF/OU Effects?
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 04:54:58 -0600
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The surface of the earth has an abundance of free electrons as evidenced by "static
electricity" effects.

With the "Cheshire Cat" type inconsistancies seen in CF/OU effects, one wonders if the
experiments ranging from cavitation to F&P cells, are the result of an excess or
deficiencies of free electrons in the experiments, especially those that involve D2O
or H2O which have a high electron affinity.

Since the electrochemistry of water should change significantly with an excess of free
electrons, one might use a Van De Graaff Generator to load the water with free
electrons in well insulated containers (experiments using battery power supplies) to
see what role the free electrons play.

Even the "bio-transmutation" of potassium to calcium in poultry, reported by Kervran
and others might be because free electrons are readily available from the water, and
clinging to the "dirt" that barnyard chickens feed on.  :-)

Could this be the "Secret Ingredient" that Scott Little was trying to find?   :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 05:41:59 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger suite224.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
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Subject: Re: The Role of Atmospheric (free) Electrons in CF/OU Effects?
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It seems plausible that adding the 19th  (atmospheric) electron to the neutral
18-electron cloud of H2O or D2O could cause a charge shift in the molecule that would
be conducive to triggering Hydrino/Deuterino formation.

Is this what is occurring in Sonoluminescence?

Regards,   Frederick

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Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: The Role of Atmospheric (free) Electrons in CF/OU Effects?

Correction.  :-)


> It seems plausible that adding the 11th  (atmospheric) electron to the neutral
> 10-electron cloud of H2O or D2O could cause a charge shift in the molecule that
would
> be conducive to triggering Hydrino/Deuterino formation.
>
> Is this what is occurring in Sonoluminescence?
>
> Regards,   Frederick
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 06:32:37 2001
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Subject: Gene Mallove on Art Bell show - Evening 11/12-13/01
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:28:14 -0500
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Gene Mallove will be on the nationwide Art Bell show tonight, Nov.12-13 
(Monday night-Tuesday morning).  (2 a.m.-6 a.m. Eastern US time).  Topics 
to be covered: Cold fusion, aether energy, and more.

Find your nearest affiliate radio station: www.artbell.com  

(Go to "Program" and look up "affiliate station" -- then click on state 
maps, some Canadian stations too).

Best,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

	Phone: 603-228-4516
	Fax:   603-224-5975
        editor infinite-energy.com

		      http://www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 07:13:56 2001
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Subject: Re: BBC and Casimir
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Robert - the URL you gace for the BBc - Is it correct I cannot raise it ?
I tried inserting bbc rather than just bb on the second try , still no go
Any help appreciated.
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Chambers <robert.chambers baesystems.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>; <Puthoff@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: BBC and Casimir


> >Audio transcripts may be heard on the BBC world service.  I did not
> >get the URL and I could not locate the show on the BBC.
>
> The URL is http://www.bb.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/sci-act.shtml and
it's
> available to listen (in RealAudio format) until 10:30am GMT on Saturday.
>
> Other useful URLs include:
>
> http://www.physicstoday.org/pt/vol-54/iss-10/p38.html (initial "www" may
not be
> necessary)
>
> http://www.lucent.com/press/0201/010209.bla.html
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 07:17:24 2001
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Gene Mallove on Art Bell show - Evening 11/12-13/01
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At 10:28 AM 11/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Gene Mallove will be on the nationwide Art Bell show tonight, Nov.12-13
>(Monday night-Tuesday morning).  (2 a.m.-6 a.m. Eastern US time).  Topics
>to be covered: Cold fusion, aether energy, and more.

Tooting your own horn?

Honestly Gene!  ;-)


Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 08:48:19 2001
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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:42:20 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: BBC and Casimir
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From: <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>


> On Friday night I listened to a show on the BBC World service. The show
was
> an interview with David Bishop.   David Bishop invented a small machine
that
> detected the Casimir force..

What kind of signal was detected (i.e. charge, frequency, pressure, etc) ?

I have searched the BBC website and found nothing

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 08:48:35 2001
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Subject: Re: Particle beam CF in Japan
In-Reply-To: <8veruto33p9ele54hdsf0fhqkejolksujm 4ax.com>
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> >If it were not for emeritus professors, cold fusion would have been
> >forgotten five years ago. One of them at JCF was doing a brave job trying
> >to sort out the Brown's Gas claims, working on a shoestring. (Abstract #8).
> >It is a shame to see such talent wasted on such a weak claim.
> >
> >- Jed
>
>The claim may have been weak, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the 
>money was wasted. There is an excellent chance that some remediation does 
>in fact take place with Rhodes' gas, especially as hydrino formation is 
>very much a possibility (both during generation, and during combustion).

Prof. Hanawa would not be able to detect anything like remediation. He can 
barely measure the heat -- which is no easy task. He is only trying to 
measure the energy balance during the production of the gas, which as far 
as I know is not supposed to be over unity. He had a great many problems, 
and so far he has only been able to make a crude estimate that about half 
the input energy is recovered as heat. The rest is presumably carried off 
with the gas. He has not tried igniting the gas. I suggested he try that, 
and I suggested some techniques the Chris Tinsley tried to use, with 
varying success. I predicted that the total heat balance after burning the 
gas would still be under unity, contrary to the "Brown's Gas" claims.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 09:19:05 2001
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Subject: Re: BBC and Casimir
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At 1:02 AM 11/12/1, Robert Chambers wrote:

>********************************************************************
>This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
>recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
>You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
>distribute its contents to any other person.
>********************************************************************


Too late for that!  I have already given public notice that any email sent
to my account will be not be treated as either priviledged or private
except when sent within the terms of a specific prior agreement.

One can not create a completely one sided contract by unilaterally
declaring the contract to be in effect.  It is not reasoable to
deliberately send unsolicited information which the recipient may, by his
own initiative, already posess in part or in whole and then unlaterally and
without compensation claim the right to gag or otherwise constrain or
control the recipient.  This might be in part be excusable if the subject
mailing were accidental, but it seems to me that there is no excuse for
intentionally mailing unsolicited information with a broad and unilateral
claim to the intellectual content.  Further, creating a burden on the
recipient to record or remember what information is confidential and what
is not, and yet to also expend the resources and effort to delete the
unsolicited information, might reasonably be expected to create a burden to
pay for the services so demanded.

Beyond the ethics and legal considerations, it is in the now long standing
spirit of the internet to freely share information disseminated by this
medium, thus it should be no surprise if attempts to unilaterally impose
restrictions on information deliberately disseminated in the medium meet
with resistance and derision.  Hopefully the legal precidents relating to
intellectual property and internet technology will eventually catch up to
and support the principle value of the internet to society - the rapid and
free sharing of information.

Lastly, contributers to archived public newslists like vortex should expect
to be freely and permanently sharing the posted information in public
domain because the lists are automatically archived and the archives are
publically available, and it is not reasonable to expect the newslist
sponsor to have to manually cull such proprietary information from the
archive, especially when the information is deliberately posted by the
author.

Having vented away in this monologue, I'll now concede that it appears the
subject proviso was inadvertantly and automatically sent to the newslist as
an email signature block.  It also contains the qualification "If you are
not the intended recipient ...",  which can logically be assumed to exclude
everyone who receives the post from the proviso, so ... sorry for the
over-reaction, but thanks for the chance to grind my axe a bit on a pet
peve.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 09:55:54 2001
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Reply-To: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <Puthoff earthtech.org>, <Little@earthtech.org>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: The Role of Atmospheric (free) Electrons in CF/OU Effects?
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:51:45 -0600
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With the abundance of free electrons around in the atmosphere (replenished by the
Solar wind and ozone layer photodetachment and brought to the earth's surface by
rain)going through a cycle:

1, 4 H2O + 4 Atm Electrons   --->  4 H2O-

2, 4 H2O-  ---> 4 Hydrinos + 4 OH-

3, 4 OH- + 4 H2O --->   4 H2O-  +  2 H2O + O2

4, 4 H2O-   starts a new cycle

Thus you don't need very many "electrostatic electrons" and you don't have to "create"
LL (+/-) pairs.

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 10:01:51 2001
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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:57:41 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: The Role of Atmospheric (free) Electrons in CF/OU Effects?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>

> With the "Cheshire Cat" type inconsistancies seen in CF/OU effects, one
> wonders if the experiments ranging from cavitation to F&P cells, are the
result of an
> excess or deficiencies of free electrons in the experiments, especially
those that
> involve D2O or H2O which have a high electron affinity.

Coincidentally, in regard to your "excess of free electrons," I had been
looking for studies relating to friciton-ionized clusters of inorganic
compounds - which together with water could cause the"magic" 13.6 (27.2) ev
"hole" which R. Mills predicts will catalyze the shrinkage of H below ground
state - this would serve to partially explain some possible heat anomalies
in natural phenomena (such as geysers, hurricanes, hot springs, etc).

There is some interesting data at:

 http://www.aps.org/BAPSMAR98/abs/S1340.html

such as  "Negative Ion Resonances and the 'Electronic Catalyst' ". Of
course,
none of these mention 'below-ground-state' hydrogen.

Mills' research has been focused on positive ions (thus the hole
terminology) - but one wonders if there is there any reason why an *excess*
of electrons, expecially if asymetrical (on the molecular scale), could not
accomplish the same thing (catalysis below ground state)?

In previous posts, you have speculated that in atmospheric phenomena, an
array of neg. LLs around HOH - might create anomalies - although it would
probably require a baker's dozen to total up to Mills'  "magic" catalytic
value   ;-).

Regards,

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 10:18:06 2001
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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <200111121427.JAA18827 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Gene Mallove on Art Bell show - Evening 11/12-13/01
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:14:17 -0500
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Hi Gene,

I'd like to download that (steaming audio?) from Art Bell's site, but at
some time after the broadcast. There is no way I'll be up at that hour, and
locating a station in Toronto, setting up a recorder etc is too time
consuming. Is it possible to access it from an Archives section at Art
Bell's Web Site at some period after the broadcast??

Best Regards,
Colin Quinney


----- Original Message -----
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:28 AM
Subject: Gene Mallove on Art Bell show - Evening 11/12-13/01


> Gene Mallove will be on the nationwide Art Bell show tonight, Nov.12-13
> (Monday night-Tuesday morning).  (2 a.m.-6 a.m. Eastern US time).  Topics
> to be covered: Cold fusion, aether energy, and more.
>
> Find your nearest affiliate radio station: www.artbell.com
>
> (Go to "Program" and look up "affiliate station" -- then click on state
> maps, some Canadian stations too).
>
> Best,
>
> Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
> Infinite Energy Magazine
> Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
> PO Box 2816
> Concord, NH 03302
>
> Phone: 603-228-4516
> Fax:   603-224-5975
>         editor infinite-energy.com
>
>       http://www.infinite-energy.com
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.295 / Virus Database: 159 - Release Date: 11/2/2001

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 10:24:20 2001
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You can listen to the archive of the show...
however they have just changed to having you
pay by the month for access....here is link...

http://www.premiereinteractive.com/artbell/listen.php

hope this helps...

steve opelc

Colin Quinney wrote:
> 
> Hi Gene,
> 
> I'd like to download that (steaming audio?) from Art Bell's site, but at
> some time after the broadcast. There is no way I'll be up at that hour, and
> locating a station in Toronto, setting up a recorder etc is too time
> consuming. Is it possible to access it from an Archives section at Art
> Bell's Web Site at some period after the broadcast??
> 
> Best Regards,
> Colin Quinney
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
> To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:28 AM
> Subject: Gene Mallove on Art Bell show - Evening 11/12-13/01
> 
> > Gene Mallove will be on the nationwide Art Bell show tonight, Nov.12-13
> > (Monday night-Tuesday morning).  (2 a.m.-6 a.m. Eastern US time).  Topics
> > to be covered: Cold fusion, aether energy, and more.
> >
> > Find your nearest affiliate radio station: www.artbell.com
> >
> > (Go to "Program" and look up "affiliate station" -- then click on state
> > maps, some Canadian stations too).
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
> > Infinite Energy Magazine
> > Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
> > PO Box 2816
> > Concord, NH 03302
> >
> > Phone: 603-228-4516
> > Fax:   603-224-5975
> >         editor infinite-energy.com
> >
> >       http://www.infinite-energy.com
> >
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.295 / Virus Database: 159 - Release Date: 11/2/2001

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 10:25:52 2001
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From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
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Subject: Re: Gene Mallove on Art Bell show - Evening 11/12-13/01
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On Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 01:23:08PM -0500, sno wrote:
>=20
> You can listen to the archive of the show...
> however they have just changed to having you
> pay by the month for access....here is link...
>=20
> http://www.premiereinteractive.com/artbell/listen.php
>=20
> hope this helps...

Can it be listened to over the net live?

Joe

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 10:28:45 2001
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Colin Quinney wrote:
> 
> Hi Gene,
> 
> I'd like to download that (steaming audio?) from Art Bell's site, but at
> some time after the broadcast. There is no way I'll be up at that hour, and
> locating a station in Toronto, setting up a recorder etc is too time
> consuming. Is it possible to access it from an Archives section at Art
> Bell's Web Site at some period after the broadcast??

Yes, but it's no longer free:

http://www.artbell.com/streamlink.html

Regards,

Terry

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Sure can....starts at 0100 Eastern....

http://www.artbell.com/audio.html

steve

Josef Karthauser wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 01:23:08PM -0500, sno wrote:
> >
> > You can listen to the archive of the show...
> > however they have just changed to having you
> > pay by the month for access....here is link...
> >
> > http://www.premiereinteractive.com/artbell/listen.php
> >
> > hope this helps...
> 
> Can it be listened to over the net live?
> 
> Joe
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 11:39:08 2001
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From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gene Mallove on Art Bell show - Evening 11/12-13/01
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On Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 01:39:13PM -0500, sno wrote:
>=20
> Sure can....starts at 0100 Eastern....
>=20
> http://www.artbell.com/audio.html

What's that in GMT?

Joe

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 12:07:03 2001
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:03:47 EST
Subject: Re: Gene Mallove on Art Bell show - Evening 11/12-13/01
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Best Of Luck Gene.

I will be listening.

Chris

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 12:12:11 2001
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Can change it to whatever you desire...
time zone converter link....

http://www.timezoneconverter.com/

steve

Josef Karthauser wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 01:39:13PM -0500, sno wrote:
> >
> > Sure can....starts at 0100 Eastern....
> >
> > http://www.artbell.com/audio.html
> 
> What's that in GMT?
> 
> Joe
> 
>   ------------------------------------------------------------
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 12:38:02 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Role of Atmospheric (free) Electrons in CF/OU Effects?
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:34:39 +1100
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 12 Nov 2001 06:45:44
-0600:
[snip]
>> Is this what is occurring in Sonoluminescence?
[snip]
Sonoluminescence in water may involve hydrinos, however if so, then I
think the catalyst is more likely to be H atoms, O atoms, and O++ ions,
all of which can provide energy holes of an approximate multiple of 27.2
eV.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 13:24:56 2001
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Subject: Re: Gene Mallove on Art Bell show - Evening 11/12-13/01
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>Hi Gene,
>
>I'd like to download that (steaming audio?) from Art Bell's site, but at
>some time after the broadcast. There is no way I'll be up at that hour, and
>locating a station in Toronto, setting up a recorder etc is too time
>consuming. Is it possible to access it from an Archives section at Art
>Bell's Web Site at some period after the broadcast??
>
>Best Regards,
>Colin Quinney


Yeah, but I think they'll make you pay now  :)

Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 13:39:54 2001
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Ouch. $6.95 per month via the Web.

Does anybody in the Toronto area know which radio station I can find the Art
Bell Show on?

Colin Quinney

> >I'd like to download that (steaming audio?) from Art Bell's site, but at
> >some time after the broadcast. There is no way I'll be up at that hour,
and
> >locating a station in Toronto, setting up a recorder etc is too time
> >consuming. Is it possible to access it from an Archives section at Art
> >Bell's Web Site at some period after the broadcast??
>
>
> Yeah, but I think they'll make you pay now  :)
>
> Gene
>
>


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Colin Quinney wrote:
> 
> Ouch. $6.95 per month via the Web.
> 
> Does anybody in the Toronto area know which radio station I can find the Art
> Bell Show on?

MOJO Radio, 640 am.  Check the schedule, some stations time
delay.

Regards,

Terry

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: A little help
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	Dear Vo.,


	I have been trying to query the community about non coal, oil and
nuclear fuel.

	Some of the feedback is ...in my opinion ... a little defeatist.

	Open to forum:   

	Can you help to show some main stream through off-the-beaten-track
methods of energy conversion or sources.

	See some of the "answers" of "can't be done" community; 


In short, we have discovered that solar PV (conventional) has an emergy of 
0.41 according to H. T. Odum, which means it actually delivers in its 
lifetime 41% of the total energy consumed by its manufacture, maintenance 
and disposal. Even if you could double the efficiency by using DEC, you 
would still not break even.

	DEC = Direct Energy Conversion

-----------------------------------

	"...... there is insufficient time and remaining energy now to
change the trillions of dollars of infrastructure enough to prevent a
massive dieoff of billions of people as the energy decline strangles
agriculture and the economy generally. ....." 

---------------------------------


	Does anyone have any alternative suggestions?


							JS

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John Schnurer said;
<<Can you help to show some main stream through off-the-beaten-track
methods of energy conversion or sources.>>

www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com
see the Muller motor/generator section.  This guy's design apparently
outputs 300amps   100% duty cycle with pulsed input of about 36amps.  It
uses amorphous steel in the cores of the pick-up coils, which leads to near
zero magnetic drag, and high strength NdFeB magnets, which leads to
high-speed and high amperage.
I'm in the process of replicating the Muller generator on a smaller scale.

It's not exactly mainstream, but it's a proven design and the money you put
into it will be returned.  Say you have a house - electyricity is expensive!
But if you make your own and phase-match it to the main line, the power
company (thanks to deregulation) is required by law to buy back the energy
you don't use.  This is the epitome of the term 'energizer bunny.'

cheers =)

Ryan Hopkins

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It would appear to me that wind power has a 
much better chance then solar at the moment...

The initial cost per watt is a lot lower...and
since wind can blow 24 hrs a day can produce
more power per hour.....no storage needed...
also takes up much less land area per watt....

Am talking wind farms...not individual generators...

steve 

John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Dear Vo.,
> 
>         I have been trying to query the community about non coal, oil and
> nuclear fuel.
> 
>         Some of the feedback is ...in my opinion ... a little defeatist.
> 
>         Open to forum:
> 
>         Can you help to show some main stream through off-the-beaten-track
> methods of energy conversion or sources.
> 
>         See some of the "answers" of "can't be done" community;
> 
> In short, we have discovered that solar PV (conventional) has an emergy of
> 0.41 according to H. T. Odum, which means it actually delivers in its
> lifetime 41% of the total energy consumed by its manufacture, maintenance
> and disposal. Even if you could double the efficiency by using DEC, you
> would still not break even.
> 
>         DEC = Direct Energy Conversion
> 
> -----------------------------------
> 
>         "...... there is insufficient time and remaining energy now to
> change the trillions of dollars of infrastructure enough to prevent a
> massive dieoff of billions of people as the energy decline strangles
> agriculture and the economy generally. ....."
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
>         Does anyone have any alternative suggestions?
> 
>                                                         JS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 15:03:38 2001
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To: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger suite224.net>, <Little@earthtech.org>,
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Subject: Re: The Role of Atmospheric (free) Electrons in CF/OU Effects?
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Question:

How much charge can be "sparged" into a liter of water from the sphere of a Van De
Graaff running at 250 Kilovolts, if the water (glass?)vessel is setting on a very good
electrical insulator and is being stirred with a very good insulating spoon?

Bill Beaty still on vortex?  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 16:31:12 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: Re: BBC and Casimir ...tear the door off your car....
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	Dear Vo.,


	If you have two conductive plates that are one Nano meter
apart.... the calculations of the Casimir Effect Force or CEF, indicate
the "push" is about equal to 1 atmosphere... or 14.7 to 15.2 pounds per
square inch.

	Once the two surfaces are together then you will either have to:

	A) spend energy to get them apart...

	B)  or shield them from the CEF so you can get them apart without
		spending energy. 

	According to some CEF descriptions... if you made
or convex-"looking-at"-convex surfaces .... the CEF will be apart... and
concave-concave and the CEF will be together.

	It would then seem that clever shaping of surfaces will allow one
to make a CEF "motor"

	Maybe this will be good to move a lot of little things on a small
scale that will add up to big stuff on a large scale...

	In any event the general commonality of the description of the CEF
teach about the force of electromagnetic waves, or EM, on conductors.
	If there is-are extant a lot of EM locally then this would seem to
say you may have a good CEF... if there was little EM, then maybe poor CEF
....
	The question that comes to mind with many Applied Sciences is what
will I have to do to make a "gooframis" that does some good body of work.

	Example:	If I go down to the auto part place I can buy a
really heavy lead-acid car battery.... and if it say, a 100 US dollar one,
then it might be a 12 volts and 500 ampere crank and this baby will, if
connected to a heavy starter motor, and the motor is connected to 
a suitable windlass ...literally rip the door off a car.
	THIS is Applied Sciences Engineering.  Granted you have to charge
this up... but the idea is the battery, heavy, poisonous and clunky is
capable of doing some real work.  

	NOW.... what are some of the "off the beaten track" things we
could use or work with that also are able to "Do Some Real Work"... and
let us sort of pare down the car battery.... 12 volts at 500 amps to be 10
volts at 500 amps, or almost any USEFUL ratio of that, such as 100 volts
and 50 amps... THIS is 5,000 watts.


	I maintain DEC, or Direct Energy Conversion, is capable of
delivering this type of electrical power from sources of energy that are
not particularly agressively exploited today.

One may wind up with something kind of clunky ... but being poisonous is
not considered acceptable .... but something which can do the job.

	One example is to take a second look at Photo-to-Electric
conversion.

	Silicon cells are sell known and run at 10 to 12 percents, mainly
because they only use a sort of narrow slice of the optical spectrum from
the sun.   
	What if the utility went to 80 to 85 percents of the sun's energy?

	One example of how do do this... is to "Get a Little Clunky"
	
	Using dye sensitized titanium Oxide photo voltaic cells the
optical bandwidth can be widened from the 850 to 980 slot, peaking at
about 880 to 900 for silicon, to 400 to 980 for dye-Ti systems.  

	I would like to know if any other Vos know of Useful conversion
methods, or have suggestions of methods that need a little developmental
help.

	If you know of parties that have serious commercial interest in
conversion methods that do real work, please contact me off line.

	Any of these methods that are infant or even teenagers i will try
to put out here on vortex so everyone has a chance at either helping them
get beeter, or making them part of a real world system or in general
contributing.

	As matters stand now TiO photo catalytic action of breaking water
into H2 and O2 is ...according to the literature, at the 59 to 63 percent
absolute quantum efficiency ... this of course would have to go to a fuel
cell or be used as fuel, but anything over 50 percent seems pretty good to
me.

				J


On Sun, 11 Nov 2001 FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

> On Friday night I listened to a show on the BBC World service. The show was 
> an interview with David Bishop.   David Bishop invented a small machine that 
> detected the Casimir force.  David Bishop Claimed that no excess energy can 
> be produced by such a machine.  His results are reported in the Journal 
> Nature.  Audio transcripts may be heard on the BBC world service.  I did not 
> get the URL and I could not locate the show on the BBC.  
> 
> Frank Z
> 

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See my comments below:

John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>  
>         One example is to take a second look at Photo-to-Electric
> conversion.
> 
>         Silicon cells are sell known and run at 10 to 12 percents, mainly
> because they only use a sort of narrow slice of the optical spectrum from
> the sun.

Other types of cells, such as GaAs, can reach higher efficiencies. As
high as 20-30 percent.

>         What if the utility went to 80 to 85 percents of the sun's energy?
> 
>         One example of how do do this... is to "Get a Little Clunky"
> 
>         Using dye sensitized titanium Oxide photo voltaic cells the
> optical bandwidth can be widened from the 850 to 980 slot, peaking at
> about 880 to 900 for silicon, to 400 to 980 for dye-Ti systems.

The idea of increasing the spectrum of solar cells is not a new one. I
remember going to the Extraordinary Science conference in 1991 and
hearing the billioniare Japanese inventor Dr. Yoshiro Nakamatsu give a
talk on his new energy device that supposedly did something similar to
what you are describing. Unfortunately, I don't remember the details and
don't have any references. :-(

> 
>         I would like to know if any other Vos know of Useful conversion
> methods, or have suggestions of methods that need a little developmental
> help.
>

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----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 5:41 PM
Subject: A little help

> Dear Vo.,
>
> I have been trying to query the community about non coal, oil and
> nuclear fuel.
>
>
> Open to forum:
>
> Can you help to show some main stream through off-the-beaten-track
> methods of energy conversion or sources.
>
> Does anyone have any alternative suggestions?
>
> JS
>

Only mainstream, John?

NATURE  science updates:

http://www.nature.com/nsu/011108/011108-5.html

Solar cells might one day be produced by the roll, as cheaply and easily as
wallpaper. Scientists in Arizona are using screen-printing, a technique
developed for patterning fabrics, to produce plastic solar cells[1].

The technique is another step towards the general availability of solar
power from flexible devices on plastic sheets or glass panels. The basic
materials of a photovoltaic cell are inexpensive, but combining them into a
working device is currently costly. This limits our exploitation of the
sun's potential to provide clean energy.

The organic cells manufactured by Ghassan Jabbour and colleagues at the
University of Arizona in Tucson have about a quarter of the efficiency of
commercial silicon devices (which turn 10-20 per cent of light energy into
electricity). But, being cheap to produce, they can make up in quantity what
they lack in quality.

In conventional screen-printing, a taut piece of fabric, patterned by
masking some areas with substances such as wax that repel colouring agents,
is covered with ink or dye. The screen is then held horizontally over the
object to be printed, and a rubber blade is swept across the back, pressing
the coloured surface down to produce an image.

Jabbour's group print very flat, very thin cells onto glass in a similar
way. First, they coat the glass with a transparent, electrically conducting
material that acts as one of the solar cell's electrodes. On top of this,
they lay down a thin film of a polymer, which helps to gather current from
the photovoltaic material.

Finally, they deposit a blend of two organic compounds that convert light
into electricity. One, a carbon-based molecule called a fullerene, produces
charged particles that carry an electrical current when light shines onto
the molecules. The other, a polymer, ferries the current to electrodes on
the top and bottom of the cell.

Under blue light, these screen-printed solar cells have an efficiency of 4.3
per cent. They are probably less efficient for white sunlight, so there is
work to be done before the devices are good enough for commercial use.

Organic solar cells were first reported last year by Bell Labs in the United
States[2]. These latest screen-printed cells are based on prototypes made by
team member Sean Shaheen and colleagues earlier this year[3].


References
1./  Shaheen, S. E., Radspinner, R., Peyghambarian, N. & Jabbour, G. E.
Fabrication of bulk heterojunction plastic solar cells by screen printing.
Applied Physics Letters, 79, 2996 - 2998, (2001).

2./  Schon, J. H., Kloc, C.H. & Batlogg, B. Efficient photovoltaic energy
conversion in pentacene-based heterojunctions. Applied Physics Letters, 77,
2473 - 2475, (2000).
Shaheen, S. E. et al. 2.5% efficient organic plastic solar cells. Applied
Physics Letters, 78, 841 - 843, (2001).

3./  Shaheen, S. E. et al. 2.5% efficient organic plastic solar cells.
Applied Physics Letters, 78, 841 - 843, (2001).

MORE:

. Solar power surge (34%)
10 August 2001
http://www.nature.com/nsu/010816/010816-3.html

. More power from plastic (2.5%)
9 February 2001
http://www.nature.com/nsu/010215/010215-9.html

. Solar power goes organic (4.5%)
23 October 2000
http://www.nature.com/nsu/010215/010215-9.html

. Taking a leaf out of nature's book
25 July 2000
http://www.nature.com/nsu/000727/000727-5.html

 © Nature News Service / Macmillan Magazines Ltd 2001


cq


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 12 22:01:35 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gene Mallove on Art Bell show - Evening 11/12-13/01
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 04:56:22 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
Message-ID: <3bf1a7d5.10173635 mail.midiowa.net>
References: <200111122122.QAA18798 mercury.mv.net> <003501c16bc2$0b1fb7a0$6401a8c0@cs910664a> <3BF0446C.655D57AD@bellsouth.net>
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Also, some of the stations carrying the show put it onto the 'net --
FOR FREE!

On Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:51:40 -0500, Terry Blanton
<commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:

>Colin Quinney wrote:
>> 
>> Ouch. $6.95 per month via the Web.
>> 
>> Does anybody in the Toronto area know which radio station I can find the Art
>> Bell Show on?
>
>MOJO Radio, 640 am.  Check the schedule, some stations time
>delay.
>
>Regards,
>
>Terry

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 01:31:32 2001
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Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 09:21:38 +0000
From: Robert Chambers <robert.chambers baesystems.com>
Subject: Re: BBC and Casimir
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Noel Whitney wrote:

>Robert - the URL you gace for the BBc - Is it correct I cannot raise it ?
>I tried inserting bbc rather than just bb on the second try , still no go

Sorry, it should be BBC.co.uk. If you can't get to it directly, go to http://www.
bbc.co.uk/worldservice and look for references to "Science in Action" - 
IIRC there's a dropdown list of the main shows on the World Service there. I doubt 
whether there's much to it that isn't already covered by the other URLs
I gave, though.

BTW sorry about the legalese - it's automatically attached to all emails from this 
domain.

Rob



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Subject: Re: Gene Mallove on Art Bell show - Evening 11/12-13/01
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On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 04:56:22AM +0000, Dean T. Miller wrote:
> Also, some of the stations carrying the show put it onto the 'net --
> FOR FREE!

Please tell me which ones.  I over slept and didn't manage to get up at
6am as I'd planned to listen to it over the net. Now I'll need to listen
to it on archive somewhere.  Any pointers would be very greatly
received.

Joe

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 08:39:57 2001
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Reply-To: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Quasi-neutrons from Atmospheric Electrons in Water
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 09:36:20 -0600
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Hi Jones.

The natural self-ionization of water should make it amenable to catalyzation to
Quasi-neutrons (Qn) by "uncommitted" Atmospheric Electrons:

1, 2 H2O <---> H3O+  +  OH-

2, Atm e-  +  H3O+  + OH-  --->  Qn + H2O + OH-

This makes the electron on the OH- ion "surplus" so that
it can create another Qn:

OH-  +  H3O+   --->  Qn  +  H2O  +  OH  +  OH-

The neutral OH Radicals will eventually form H2O and O2, but the "uncommitted"
electron will remain as a catalyst:

4 OH  --->  2 H2O +  O2

The Quasineutrons can tunnel into any nucleus to effect nuclear
reactions/transmutations in addition to the OU heat given off in their formation.

In the case of D2O:

2 D2O <--> D3O+  +  OD-

The same cycle applies, but in this case the "proton end" of the deuteron becomes
neutral, thus making it neutral so that it too can tunnel into any nucleus and effect
CF/OU reactions.

I might be interested in funding some preliminary activity
to see how much Net Charge can be added to a vessel of
H2O and how much this charge effects the pH of the water etc.

If you are interested let me know privately.

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 09:24:28 2001
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From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Muller's work
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 09:20:36 -0800
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Having visited Muller in Canada, only to find he had not been honest about 
having instruments we could have brought with us to measure his gain, and 
being friends with others who have evaluated his machines over the years, I 
would estimate his liklihood of putting a real over-unity device into 
production as zero.  He is a very difficult individual and insults anyone 
who questions him.  Good luck, Ryan!

Mark Goldes, CEO
Magnetic Power Inc.


>From: "Ryan Hopkins" <thebishop usadatanet.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Subject: Re: A little help
>Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:43:14 -0500
>
>John Schnurer said;
><<Can you help to show some main stream through off-the-beaten-track
>methods of energy conversion or sources.>>
>
>www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com
>see the Muller motor/generator section.  This guy's design apparently
>outputs 300amps   100% duty cycle with pulsed input of about 36amps.  It
>uses amorphous steel in the cores of the pick-up coils, which leads to near
>zero magnetic drag, and high strength NdFeB magnets, which leads to
>high-speed and high amperage.
>I'm in the process of replicating the Muller generator on a smaller scale.
>
>It's not exactly mainstream, but it's a proven design and the money you put
>into it will be returned.  Say you have a house - electyricity is 
>expensive!
>But if you make your own and phase-match it to the main line, the power
>company (thanks to deregulation) is required by law to buy back the energy
>you don't use.  This is the epitome of the term 'energizer bunny.'
>
>cheers =)
>
>Ryan Hopkins
>


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 09:30:52 2001
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From: "Ryan Hopkins" <thebishop usadatanet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Muller's work
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That stinks.  He has not returned either of my emails.  However, I have been
in touch with Doug Konzen (konehead msn.com) who has mated a simplified
version of the muller generator to his OU pulse motor set-up.  Reports from
his side of things are encouraging.
Ryan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: Muller's work


> Having visited Muller in Canada, only to find he had not been honest about
> having instruments we could have brought with us to measure his gain, and
> being friends with others who have evaluated his machines over the years,
I
> would estimate his liklihood of putting a real over-unity device into
> production as zero.  He is a very difficult individual and insults anyone
> who questions him.  Good luck, Ryan!
>
> Mark Goldes, CEO
> Magnetic Power Inc.
>
>
> >From: "Ryan Hopkins" <thebishop usadatanet.net>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> >Subject: Re: A little help
> >Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:43:14 -0500
> >
> >John Schnurer said;
> ><<Can you help to show some main stream through off-the-beaten-track
> >methods of energy conversion or sources.>>
> >
> >www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com
> >see the Muller motor/generator section.  This guy's design apparently
> >outputs 300amps   100% duty cycle with pulsed input of about 36amps.  It
> >uses amorphous steel in the cores of the pick-up coils, which leads to
near
> >zero magnetic drag, and high strength NdFeB magnets, which leads to
> >high-speed and high amperage.
> >I'm in the process of replicating the Muller generator on a smaller
scale.
> >
> >It's not exactly mainstream, but it's a proven design and the money you
put
> >into it will be returned.  Say you have a house - electyricity is
> >expensive!
> >But if you make your own and phase-match it to the main line, the power
> >company (thanks to deregulation) is required by law to buy back the
energy
> >you don't use.  This is the epitome of the term 'energizer bunny.'
> >
> >cheers =)
> >
> >Ryan Hopkins
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 10:18:10 2001
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John Schnurer wrote:


>         I have been trying to query the community about non coal, oil and
>nuclear fuel.
>
>         Some of the feedback is ...in my opinion ... a little defeatist.

Some is uninformed, some is biased, and some does not take into account the 
fact that new technology is usually inefficient and at a large disadvantage 
compared to established technology.


>         See some of the "answers" of "can't be done" community;
>
>In short, we have discovered that solar PV (conventional) has an emergy 
>of  0.41 according to H. T. Odum, which means it actually delivers in 
>its  lifetime 41% of the total energy consumed by its manufacture, 
>maintenance and disposal. Even if you could double the efficiency by using 
>DEC, you would still not break even.

I am afraid this is probably true. Solar photovoltaic (PV) cells take 2 to 
6 years to recover the energy deficit, and in the field many of them do not 
last that long. In other words, a PV generation system consumes more energy 
than it produces. It is useful as a battery, moving energy from the factory 
to inaccessible locations or hand calculators. See:

http://www.siemenssolar.com/Paybackstudy.pdf

This is mitigated by the fact that most of the "embodied" energy in a PV is 
in silicon, which is usually waste silicon from semiconductor 
manufacturing. If it were not used in PVs, it would be thrown away, and the 
energy lost. However, there is not enough waste silicon to manufacture PVs 
in large enough numbers to have a significant impact on the total national 
energy demand. As things stand, lighting your house with a PV array is a 
little like heating it by burning with the waste cardboard from a 
semiconductor factory.

Other alternative energy systems have a much shorter embodied energy pay 
back time. Wind turbines require energy to manufacture, construct and 
maintain. This "energy debt" is recovered in three months of operation. 
Fossil fuel plants recover the debt in one month of operation, including 
the energy required to mine and ship the fuel. I am not sure about fission 
plants.


>         "...... there is insufficient time and remaining energy now to
>change the trillions of dollars of infrastructure enough to prevent a
>massive dieoff of billions of people as the energy decline strangles
>agriculture and the economy generally. ....."

The infrastructure wears out and has to replaced anyway, every 30 to 50 
years. Large parts of the distribution network in places like Florida and 
Georgia is sometimes destroyed by storms. If cold fusion can be 
implemented, it will not be worth maintaining the infrastructure, and 
within a generation most of it will be sold for scrap or abandoned in place.

I do not think there will be a massive "dieoff" of billions of people in 
the developed world, which has an infrastructure and modern energy 
generation. People know how to take care of themselves, and they react to 
threats. That is why the Y2K bug did not destroy our computer 
infrastructure. It would have, if we had not spent a ton of money fixing 
the problem. A massive dieoff of billions of people is already underway in 
the third world. Actually, it has always has been underway, for all of 
recorded history. The disaster is that things have not changed, and 
problems that should have been fixed a hundred years ago are still 
festering. Roughly 50,000 people per week die from easily prevented causes, 
mainly lack of energy, and also water bourne disease, malaria and so on -- 
plus war, which may be the worst scourge.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 12:26:29 2001
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Nov. 12, 2001

So I was ready to snooze when my wife reminded me of my remarking about
another Art Bell interview with Mallove. I had mentioned it earlier in
the day. Eh!, I thought. Another session of commercials interlaced with
an interview about cf. Who needs the rehash of the subject reduced to
the Pablum level? However, I did listen in spurts, turning off the radio
when the commercials started then back on about fifteen minutes later.
The interview was conducted by a George 'Nohri' standing in for Art Bell
who continues to have back problems (methinks he is taking too much HGH)
--- all five hours. The interview turned out better than past ones.
'Gene was more relaxed and  informative despite the speech impediment of
frequently interspersing  'okey?' at the oddest moments. : ) He did call
the secure MIT scientists and others of their ilk a bunch of S.O.B.'s
(with Nohri egging him on).
The topics covered were a range of "cold fusion" phenomena from the Pons
& Fleischmann effect, arcing, sonofusion, Corea's experiments, Black
Light, Case, SRI, Mitchell Swartz, to otrhers such as the Big Bang, the
Aether, UFO's, Relativity, God, and more. A nice intermixture of a
sampler variety melange to tickle and  keep a sleepy mind awake. There
were the promotion of the 'Fire From Water' video, the Infinite Energy
Magazine and  I.E. website. And the call-ins were a little more better
than past interviews.

-AK-.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 14:32:43 2001
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Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:29:18 -0600
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: A little help
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At 01:15 PM 11/13/01 -0500, you wrote:
>John Schnurer wrote:
>
>
>>         I have been trying to query the community about non coal, oil and
>>nuclear fuel.
>>
>>         Some of the feedback is ...in my opinion ... a little defeatist.
>
>Some is uninformed, some is biased, and some does not take into account 
>the fact that new technology is usually inefficient and at a large 
>disadvantage compared to established technology.
>
>
>>         See some of the "answers" of "can't be done" community;
>>
>>In short, we have discovered that solar PV (conventional) has an emergy 
>>of  0.41 according to H. T. Odum, which means it actually delivers in 
>>its  lifetime 41% of the total energy consumed by its manufacture, 
>>maintenance and disposal. Even if you could double the efficiency by 
>>using DEC, you would still not break even.

But has anybody done a time failure analysis?

Here is an interesting thought.  Filed applications of Silicon PVs are 
always done in multi cell panels.  Each cell folds over at about .7V  so it 
takes about 20 of them to maintain a 12V led-acid battery.   IF one cell 
fails the whole panel fails.  This skews the stats a bit.  The individual 
chips are rather brittle. so environment issues can cause failure via 
cracking or freezing or any number of evil things that this planet does to 
our equipment...  When one cell fails there are 19 good cells still in the 
panel.

If you can show me enough silicon solar equipment failing that I can 
justify a service / recycling center I can get it set up.    There is a 
nationwide service here in Fort Worth that would be more then willing to 
open another division.




Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 14:43:30 2001
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Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:41:54 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC birds endanger airplanes, and vice versa
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See:

http://slate.msn.com/default.aspx?id=2058630

This is common knowledge to aviation buffs. Bird strikes have caused fatal 
crashes, usually on takeoff. They may have been a factor yesterday.

I bring this up because it is a good example of fragile technology. A 
gigantic machine worth hundreds of millions, with people's lives and 
hundreds of millions more in liability at stake, can sometimes be struck by 
a catastrophe from some mundane cause, which cannot be prevented. The Three 
Mile Island accident was an example that could have been prevented, but I 
do not see how we can eliminate the danger of bird strikes.

As I have often pointed out, most casualties in air crashes are caused by 
burning fuel, and cold fusion would fix that problem. I suppose it would 
still call for large amounts of superheated water or some other fluid, and 
any high performance engine strong enough and light enough for an airplane 
may shred itself and fly to pieces. (Whereas a Diesel railroad or marine 
engine would never do that.)

It is a little difficult to imagine how a CF heat engine could drive an 
airplane, but someone will invent a method. It will have many advantages in 
safety, range, economy, pollution and so on.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 15:02:16 2001
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Subject: Re: A little help
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Charles Ford wrote:

>>>delivers in its  lifetime 41% of the total energy consumed by its 
>>>manufacture, maintenance and disposal. Even if you could double the 
>>>efficiency by using DEC, you would still not break even.
>
>But has anybody done a time failure analysis?

Yes, there has been extensive research on this, by private industry and the 
DoE. A rather cynical DoE report says MTTF is not as good as industry claims:

M. Thomas, H. Post, "Photovoltaic Systems Performance and Reliability: 
Myths, Facts, and Concerns. A 1996 Perspective," Photovoltaics Quarterly, 
(Sandia National Laboratory), http://www.sandia.gov/pv/hot/Pvq_496.htm


>Here is an interesting thought.  Filed applications of Silicon PVs are 
>always done in multi cell panels.  Each cell folds over at about .7V  so 
>it takes about 20 of them to maintain a 12V led-acid battery.   IF one 
>cell fails the whole panel fails.  This skews the stats a bit.  The 
>individual chips are rather brittle. so environment issues can cause 
>failure via cracking or freezing or any number of evil things that this 
>planet does to our equipment...  When one cell fails there are 19 good 
>cells still in the panel.

As far as I know, individual chips seldom fail ahead of schedule -- that 
is, sooner than others placed in the same environment. Also, complete 
failure is not the problem. The problem is gradual and continual 
degradation. It costs money to maintain an array, for such things as 
cleaning off the surface. When an array produces only half the electricity 
it once did, it may no longer be cost effective to maintain it. This may 
happen only ten years after installation, in some environments. Other 
generators degrade over time too, especially geothermal generators. Wind 
turbines are designed to last 10 or 20 years. With most others sources such 
as wind turbines, coal generators, or automobile engines, the decline is 
less steep than PVs, and useful service continues until a major overhaul or 
a change in regulations makes continued maintenance uneconomical. The whole 
system is then scrapped. I doubt that productivity has typically fallen by 
half when the system is scrapped.

Automobile batteries seem to fall off rather drastically and continuously 
in performance, in my personal experience. This may be a problem with 
electric cars.


>If you can show me enough silicon solar equipment failing that I can 
>justify a service / recycling center I can get it set up.

I think it unlikely that silicon would be worth recycling. The raw material 
is sand -- very cheap.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 15:16:32 2001
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Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:34:52 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A little help
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I just replaced a solar panel, a 5 watt Kyocera model, that lasted 15
years. The plexiglass cover crazed and leaked water, which corroded the
innards, and it stopped working. It might be capable of working again, if
the cover could be replaced, but it is glued onto the solar
disks(chips?). It cost me $100 used in 1990 at a used boating equipment
shop in Fort Pierce, FL, and has resided on my travel trailer in recent
years, keeping the batteries charged near full. (lots of sunshine here in
LA).

Hank


On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Charles Ford wrote:
> 
> >>>delivers in its  lifetime 41% of the total energy consumed by its 
> >>>manufacture, maintenance and disposal. Even if you could double the 
> >>>efficiency by using DEC, you would still not break even.
> >
> >But has anybody done a time failure analysis?
> 
> Yes, there has been extensive research on this, by private industry and the 
> DoE. A rather cynical DoE report says MTTF is not as good as industry claims:
> 
> M. Thomas, H. Post, "Photovoltaic Systems Performance and Reliability: 
> Myths, Facts, and Concerns. A 1996 Perspective," Photovoltaics Quarterly, 
> (Sandia National Laboratory), http://www.sandia.gov/pv/hot/Pvq_496.htm
> 
> 
> >Here is an interesting thought.  Filed applications of Silicon PVs are 
> >always done in multi cell panels.  Each cell folds over at about .7V  so 
> >it takes about 20 of them to maintain a 12V led-acid battery.   IF one 
> >cell fails the whole panel fails.  This skews the stats a bit.  The 
> >individual chips are rather brittle. so environment issues can cause 
> >failure via cracking or freezing or any number of evil things that this 
> >planet does to our equipment...  When one cell fails there are 19 good 
> >cells still in the panel.
> 
> As far as I know, individual chips seldom fail ahead of schedule -- that 
> is, sooner than others placed in the same environment. Also, complete 
> failure is not the problem. The problem is gradual and continual 
> degradation. It costs money to maintain an array, for such things as 
> cleaning off the surface. When an array produces only half the electricity 
> it once did, it may no longer be cost effective to maintain it. This may 
> happen only ten years after installation, in some environments. Other 
> generators degrade over time too, especially geothermal generators. Wind 
> turbines are designed to last 10 or 20 years. With most others sources such 
> as wind turbines, coal generators, or automobile engines, the decline is 
> less steep than PVs, and useful service continues until a major overhaul or 
> a change in regulations makes continued maintenance uneconomical. The whole 
> system is then scrapped. I doubt that productivity has typically fallen by 
> half when the system is scrapped.
> 
> Automobile batteries seem to fall off rather drastically and continuously 
> in performance, in my personal experience. This may be a problem with 
> electric cars.
> 
> 
> >If you can show me enough silicon solar equipment failing that I can 
> >justify a service / recycling center I can get it set up.
> 
> I think it unlikely that silicon would be worth recycling. The raw material 
> is sand -- very cheap.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 15:41:17 2001
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Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:34:32 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: A little help
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hank scudder wrote:

>I just replaced a solar panel, a 5 watt Kyocera model, that lasted 15 
>years. The plexiglass cover crazed and leaked water, which corroded the 
>innards, and it stopped working.

That is an example of a final, catastrophic failure. But did you get a 
chance to measure performance during the lifetime of the panel? Did you 
observe it gradually degrade? Thomas & Post make interesting comments about 
infant mortality, degradation, catastrophic failure and other 
ghoulish-sounding technical problems in the PVs, batteries, inverters and 
other peripheral equipment.  All in all, they make PV electricity sound 
unpromising.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 16:12:18 2001
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Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:28:35 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A little help
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I did not try and observe its behavior, other then seeing if it kept the
battery charged. This summer, when I went on vacation, I had to buy new
batteries because the solar panel had died. I hadn't used it in two years
before, and didn't check the batteries for 6 months, having complete faith
in the solar panel. So much for testing and reliability. It worked OK for
8 years for me, at least, and was worth the $100.

Hank

On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> hank scudder wrote:
> 
> >I just replaced a solar panel, a 5 watt Kyocera model, that lasted 15 
> >years. The plexiglass cover crazed and leaked water, which corroded the 
> >innards, and it stopped working.
> 
> That is an example of a final, catastrophic failure. But did you get a 
> chance to measure performance during the lifetime of the panel? Did you 
> observe it gradually degrade? Thomas & Post make interesting comments about 
> infant mortality, degradation, catastrophic failure and other 
> ghoulish-sounding technical problems in the PVs, batteries, inverters and 
> other peripheral equipment.  All in all, they make PV electricity sound 
> unpromising.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 18:32:10 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Charles Ford <cjford1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: A little help
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:31:34 -0500
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On Tuesday 13 November 2001 17:29, Charles Ford wrote:
> At 01:15 PM 11/13/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >John Schnurer wrote:
> >>         I have been trying to query the community about non coal, oil
> >> and nuclear fuel.
> >>
> >>         Some of the feedback is ...in my opinion ... a little defeatist.
> >
> >Some is uninformed, some is biased, and some does not take into account
> >the fact that new technology is usually inefficient and at a large
> >disadvantage compared to established technology.
> >
> >>         See some of the "answers" of "can't be done" community;
> >>
> >>In short, we have discovered that solar PV (conventional) has an emergy
> >>of  0.41 according to H. T. Odum, which means it actually delivers in
> >>its  lifetime 41% of the total energy consumed by its manufacture,
> >>maintenance and disposal. Even if you could double the efficiency by
> >>using DEC, you would still not break even.
>
> But has anybody done a time failure analysis?
>
> Here is an interesting thought.  Filed applications of Silicon PVs are
> always done in multi cell panels.  Each cell folds over at about .7V  so it
> takes about 20 of them to maintain a 12V led-acid battery.   IF one cell
> fails the whole panel fails.  This skews the stats a bit.  The individual
> chips are rather brittle. so environment issues can cause failure via
> cracking or freezing or any number of evil things that this planet does to
> our equipment...  When one cell fails there are 19 good cells still in the
> panel.
>
> If you can show me enough silicon solar equipment failing that I can
> justify a service / recycling center I can get it set up.    There is a
> nationwide service here in Fort Worth that would be more then willing to
> open another division.
>
>
>
>
> Charlie Ford
>
> KC5-OWZ
> cjford1 yahoo.com
> cjford1 swbell.net
>
>Charlie,
	Part of the problem may just be our throw-away society.
We throw away anything and everything, even people.  Look at
what business does with every employee over the age of 40.  One
reason that we do that is our insurance dominated health care
system.  But that is beside the point.
	You, and many others remember when American products
were made to be maintainable.  I remember my mother's mixer.  It
was a Sunbeam and sat on a stand.  It was too heavy for my four
years old body to carry across the kitchen!  It lasted forever, and
when a brush did give out, it had convenient brush access screw
plugs on the side to replace them.  It had small holes for lubrication
of the bearings......which were also replaceable.  It shipped with
a detailed manual complete with electrical diagrams and a parts
list showing prices, availablility and where one could mail or call
the manufacturer.  Along with this was a certified dealer list where
the item could be taken for repair or parts purchase.  Dealers were
certified on the basis of continued and supervised performance of
the manufacturers' guarantee provisions.  Yes!  Real guarantees,
not customer data mining masquerading as 'limited warrantees' or
'registration'. 
	We have lost that product.  The new 'improved' replacement
is small and light and made of plastic;  even the beater sockets.
It has no real torque, and if it were to be used to mix a viscous dough
like cookies, its motor would cook before the cookies ever got started!
If anything happens to it, the manufacturers cannot be found and the
selling stores run away from it, hiding behind 'limited warranties' that
disclaim even the basic English Common Law implied 'warrantee of
merchantability or fitness.
	Now look at Chinese products and some Korean products.
You will find here what we were 70 years ago.  Quality!  Even the
lowest toy is put together with screws.  Many screws!  Yes! Even
the toys are maintainable.  The Chinese have a reverence for science
and the future that is to be commended.  Maybe they know that it
is their only hope for future survival?;  I do not know.  
	Getting back to your photo-voltaic panel.  It has been
described in such manner as to have been unmaintainable by the
typical user as manufactured, and that the failure of a small part
would render the whole as a discard to a dust bin.  Maybe this is
why photo voltaics are getting unfairly attacked (recent letters).
First, someone manufactures a convenient unit foregoing maintainability
in favor of false economy.  The unit is therefore not cost effective
and the manufacturer knows this and does not tell the customer,
rather prefering to further fraudulent sales campaigns in order to
maximize profits in the short run.  This he does.  Customers eventually
sour on the the product, and finding no other products in the 
marketplace with any quality ( the bad having driven out the good)
retreats from utilizing the technology.  Eventually some opportunist
speciousely criticizes the technology as not being viable while 
ignoring the abuse it has taken to arrive at that sorry state.
	Like you said, if maintainable units could be manufactured
and sold in competition with these units, and survive predatory
efforts by large market players to squeeze it off the shelves and 
out of the stores or otherwise marginalize it;  then maybe, just maybe,
the economic equation balance would tip in its favor.

Standing Bear
rockcast net-link.net

just got back on line after long hard computer rebuild

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 19:49:12 2001
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Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:53:01 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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	Here are some URL for not really well known DEC from DOE.


	And.... just for a stimulus for those who want to do some digging
on their own.

	I believe the DEC of optical to hydrogen is at 50 to 65 percents
quantum efficient ....This is using sunlight to hydrogen
photoelectrocatalytic ....
	What does that figure out to if you use the H and O to operate a
fuel cell?

	What does a square yard (or meter) give us in electrical power?


	These examples, below, are nowhere NEAR the top...


	AND.... you even have to dig inside their papers to find stuff
such as one mention of 18 percents.


Photoelectrode Design for CIS Photoelectrode Design for CIS
The new photoelectrode design allows use of side-by-side series-connected
single-junction solar
cells in addition to the stacked multijunction configuration. This has
opened the door to using
alternative low cost, high-efficiency thin film materials, such as
copper-indium-diselenide, which
have reported solar efficiencies exceeding 18%. These materials were not
previously considered
because of the low voltage of a single junction device and the inability
to fabricate monolithic-stacked
multi-junctions. However, the newly proposed encapsulated photoelectrode
design was
further developed to incorporate side-by-side CIGS cells, taking advantage
of the potential for
efficiency enhancement.


	This is so goofy ... they did not want to try using it becasue one
cell put out less voltage than they wanted....

	What the heck do they do with a car battery....??!!  

	They stack up 6 cells to get the 12 volts....

	It is as though papers are writtne to show why the investigators
CANNOT succeed....

	Puhleeze wake UP!


http://www.eren.doe.gov/hydrogen/pdfs/28890s.pdf
http://www.nrel.gov/ncpv/pdfs/phtochem.pdf
http://www.ise.fhg.de/Events/2ndworld.html


PHOTOELECTROCHEMICAL HYDROGEN PRODUCTION PHOTOELECTROCHEMICAL HYDROGEN
PRODUCTION
Eric Miller and Richard Rocheleau Eric Miller and Richard Rocheleau
Hawaii Natural Energy Institute Hawaii Natural Energy Institute
School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology School of Ocean and Earth
Science and Technology
University of Hawaii at Manoa University of Hawaii at Manoa
Honolulu, HI 96822, USA Honolulu, HI 96822, USA
Abstract Abstract
High efficiency photoelectrochemical (PEC) systems to produce hydrogen
directly from water using
sunlight as the energy source have been identified by DOE as one of the
promising technologies to
meet long-term hydrogen-production goals. In the PEC research at UH, our
approach has been to
compare alternate materials and system configurations using reactor
modeling, and to identify and
address the critical materials and photoelectrode-operation issues through
extensive experiments in
materials synthesis and in photoelectrode fabrication and testing. In 1996
we demonstrated direct
solar-to-hydrogen conversion efficiencies of 7.8% using a photocathode
fabricated from 10%
efficient triple-junction amorphous silicon solar cells. These prototypes
were configured with a
separate anode connect by wire to a photocathode. In subsequent years, our
focus shifted toward the
development of photoelectrodes with fully integrated cathodes/anodes. This
year, we advanced the
design of a new fully integrated and self-contained photoelectrode
fabricated entirely with thin film
processing and demonstrated a process sequence to fabricate prototypes.
The new photoelectrodes
again used multi-junction a-Si cells and sputter-deposited catalyst,
contact, and protective films
developed at UH. We also continued the development of optimal
transparent-conductive and
protective films. A deposition system for copper-indium -gallium
diselenide (CIGS) films was
installed (cost shared with other projects and UH support) as part of a
new effort to develop higher
efficiency photoelectrodes. The encapsulated design with side-by-side
series-connected CIGS
junctions has the potential to achieve 15% solar to hydrogen conversion
efficiency. Plans are
underway to demonstrate hydrogen-production using the a-Si photoelectrodes
and to develop a
fabrication process for high efficiency CIGS-based photoelectrodes.


PHOTOCHEMICAL SOLAR CELLS BASED ON DYE-SENSITIZATION OF NANOCRYSTALLINE
TIO2
S. K. Deb, R. Ellingson, S. Ferrere, A. J. Frank, B. A. Gregg, A. J.
Nozik, N. Park, and G. Schlichthrl
National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), 1617 Cole Boulevard, Golden,
CO 80401-3393 USA
ABSTRACT: A photoelectrochemical solar cell that is based on the
dye-sensitization of thin nanocrystalline films of TiO2 (anatase)
nanoparticles in contact with a non-aqueous liquid electrolyte is
described. The cell, fabricated at NREL, shows a conversion
efficiency of -9.2% at AM1.5, which approaches the best reported value of
10%-11% by Grtzel at EPFL in Lausanne,
Switzerland. The femtosecond (fs) pump-probe spectroscopy has been used to
time resolve the injection of electrons into the
conduction band of nanocrystalline TiO2 films under ambient conditions
following photoexcitation of the adsorbed Ru(11)-complex
dye. The measurement indicates an instrument-limited -50 fs upper limit on
the electron injection time. We also report the
sensitization of nanocrystalline TiO2 by a novel iron-based dye, CIS-[Fe
11 (2,2'-bipyridine-4,4'-dicarboxylic acid)2 (CN)2 ], a
chromophore with an extremely short-lived, nonemissive excited state. The
dye also exhibits a unique "band selective" sensitization
through one of its two absorption bands. The operational principle of the
device has been studied through the measurement of
electric field distribution within the device structure and studies on the
pH dependence of dye-redox potential. The incorporation
of WO3 -based electrochromic layer into this device has led to a novel
photoelectrochromic device structure for "smart window"
application.
Keywords: Dye-sensitized photoelectrochemical solar cel -1:
Photoelectrochromic window-2


On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, hank scudder wrote:

> I did not try and observe its behavior, other then seeing if it kept the
> battery charged. This summer, when I went on vacation, I had to buy new
> batteries because the solar panel had died. I hadn't used it in two years
> before, and didn't check the batteries for 6 months, having complete faith
> in the solar panel. So much for testing and reliability. It worked OK for
> 8 years for me, at least, and was worth the $100.
> 
> Hank
> 
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > hank scudder wrote:
> > 
> > >I just replaced a solar panel, a 5 watt Kyocera model, that lasted 15 
> > >years. The plexiglass cover crazed and leaked water, which corroded the 
> > >innards, and it stopped working.
> > 
> > That is an example of a final, catastrophic failure. But did you get a 
> > chance to measure performance during the lifetime of the panel? Did you 
> > observe it gradually degrade? Thomas & Post make interesting comments about 
> > infant mortality, degradation, catastrophic failure and other 
> > ghoulish-sounding technical problems in the PVs, batteries, inverters and 
> > other peripheral equipment.  All in all, they make PV electricity sound 
> > unpromising.
> > 
> > - Jed
> > 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 13 22:17:01 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gene Mallove on Art Bell show - Evening 11/12-13/01
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 05:13:31 GMT
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Hi Joe,

On Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:33:10 +0000, Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
wrote:

>On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 04:56:22AM +0000, Dean T. Miller wrote:
>> Also, some of the stations carrying the show put it onto the 'net --
>> FOR FREE!
>
>Please tell me which ones.  I over slept and didn't manage to get up at
>6am as I'd planned to listen to it over the net. Now I'll need to listen
>to it on archive somewhere.  Any pointers would be very greatly
>received.

I'm not aware of any archive for Coast-to-Coast except on Bell's site.
The stations that web-cast the show (and all of the shows on the
station) are always live.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 14 09:53:46 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: A little help
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Standing Bear wrote:

>         Part of the problem may just be our throw-away society.
>We throw away anything and everything, even people. . . .

As far as I know, most major U.S. durable goods last longer today than they 
did 50 years ago, including such things as automobiles, refrigerators, 
radios, power tools and roofing material. Product warranties and safety are 
greatly improved, thanks to competition and pressure from consumer 
organizations and regulators.


>         You, and many others remember when American products
>were made to be maintainable.  I remember my mother's mixer.  It
>was a Sunbeam and sat on a stand.  It was too heavy for my four
>years old body to carry across the kitchen!  It lasted forever, and
>when a brush did give out . . .

You can still buy a mixer of this type. Professional, or restaurant grade 
equipment has heavy duty replaceable parts, full schematics and so on. In 
the 1950s, for some products, only restaurant grade equipment was 
available; there were no cheap substitutes. Relative to inflation, the 
heavy duty model of 1950 probably cost as much or more as the restaurant 
grade machine does today, and today's light plastic model costs roughly as 
much as a 1950 hand driven eggbeater.


>It shipped with a detailed manual complete with electrical diagrams and a 
>parts list showing prices, availablility and where one could mail or call
>the manufacturer.

This kind of information is more readily available today, thanks to 
government regulations and the Internet.


>         Now look at Chinese products and some Korean products.
>You will find here what we were 70 years ago.  Quality!

On the contrary, I have found most Chinese models very shoddy. U.S. 
products are often so good they have priced themselves out of the market.



>Even the lowest toy is put together with screws.  Many screws!  Yes! Even 
>the toys are maintainable.  The Chinese have a reverence for science and 
>the future that is to be commended.

I admire Chinese civilization as much as anyone, but their manufacturers 
and political leaders are not know for having a reverence for science, the 
future, or anything else. They are rapacious, corrupt and money grubbing, 
unrestrained by traditions or legal restrictions. I have not seen screws in 
many Chinese goods. For that kind of "quality" look at Japanese products. 
Actually, that is probably a sign of obsolescence rather than quality. 
Screws work loose and fall out. Other fasteners are more reliable, although 
some cannot be opened.

Many products, such as bearings on automobiles, had to be maintained in the 
1950s, but today they are in a sealed, inaccessible module. They cannot be 
maintained. Once they wear out, they can only be replaced. This is not a 
sign of laziness, or decreased quality, and it is not a waste of resources. 
Sealed bearings last longer. They can be fabricated with greater precision 
so they produce less friction and thus save energy. They are less likely to 
catch on fire than the old-fashioned ones. It takes less labor to replace 
them, so automobile mechanics can be more productive and earn a decent 
living. Our society puts more value on human labor -- people's time -- than 
materials. That's a good thing. If scrap material increases significantly 
because of that decision, and waste becomes a problem, it should be recycled.

- Jed

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From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
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Subject: Re: And they......Re: A little help
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John
	In a colloqium last year I heard a talk about solar cell research,
based on Si and GaAs, and they approached 30% efficiency by using three
cells one above the other, which were transparent in some bands letting
radiation through to lower cells, and absorbed in other frequency regions. 

Hank 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 14 10:56:12 2001
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hank scudder wrote:

>In a colloqium last year I heard a talk about solar cell research, based 
>on Si and GaAs, and they approached 30% efficiency by using three cells 
>one above the other . . .

Ed Storms and others have criticized the PV industry for chasing after the 
wrong goals. The industry focuses on efficiency too much, at the expense of 
other performance parameters. They should be thinking about:

* Cost, which is based on ease of manufacturing, the choice of raw 
materials and so on. A 10% efficient cell that costs $1 is better than a 
30% efficient cell for $5. Taking up three times more space is not a 
problem. There is plenty of untapped sunlight, on roofs and places like that.

* Long term efficiency, not just the initial output. I'll bet that 30% was 
measured for the first six months. If it is still 20% after ten years they 
are on to something, but not if the cell rapidly degrades.

* Embodied energy pay back. All else being equal, a higher conversion 
efficiency will improve this.

Many PV limitations have little to do with efficiency or the PV cell 
itself, and more to do with cleaning the surface, preventing leaks, and 
preventing deleterious change to packaging, glue, and other components from 
long term exposure to light, heat and temperature extremes. A PV is left 
outside in bright sunlight, which is a bad place to put a manufactured good 
or machine. It is a harsh environment. By the same token, the roads are 
hell on automobiles, wind turbine blades are worn away by the wind, and the 
generators eventually wear out from the constant movement, stopping and 
starting.

Many CF problems are also rooted in mundane materials issues, and such 
things as bacteria growing in heavy water. We need high flow physics 
theories I suppose, but we also need clean recombination catalysts that do 
not foul the electrolyte. Most replications fail because of  mundane 
blunders, such as the wrong sized anode.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 14 11:02:39 2001
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At 05:59 PM 11/13/01 -0500, you wrote:
>decline is less steep than PVs, and useful service continues until a major 
>overhaul or a change in regulations makes continued maintenance 
>uneconomical. The whole system is then scrapped. I doubt that productivity 
>has typically fallen by half when the system is scrapped.

This is the point at which a "referbish" rather then resyscl.

There is the basic process (as I see it)  The dead arrey is opened and the 
chips are removed, cleaned and tested.  those that pass a minimum 
performance standard are used to make new arrays.

>Automobile batteries seem to fall off rather drastically and continuously 
>in performance, in my personal experience. This may be a problem with 
>electric cars.

This is an issue that has been solved with an electronic desulphator.  This 
device keeps the surface of the plates active preventing the sulphurous 
coaling from deposition that ultimately causes the led acid battery to 
short.  I have only short experience with these devices but they come 
highly recommended by others who have been able to greatly extend the life 
of there batteries.

>>If you can show me enough silicon solar equipment failing that I can 
>>justify a service / recycling center I can get it set up.
>
>I think it unlikely that silicon would be worth recycling. The raw 
>material is sand -- very cheap.

Sand is cheap.  Silicon is however not.  Industrial silicon is not from 
beach sand.  It is a special sand (brazil sand) that comes from crushing 
quartz.  The raw material is mined and crushed then refined using a very 
energy costly smelting process.  Actually recycling dead chips would likely 
be an option.  but this is not what I am referring to.

The Fort Worth based company that I have in mind has been making millions 
annually on a regular basis doing the refurbishing jobs that others have 
thought ether impossible or not cost effective.  What I am basically 
getting at is that the companies that make the chips are not coming to tell 
you that they can be recycled and DOE doesn't actually do the work there 
selves (they contract the manufacturers to do the studies)

So what really needs to happen is that some failed equipment needs to 
become available to be analyzed by people who aren't trying to sell new ones.

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 07:01:18 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi Fred,

I tried sending you private email, but your isp won't talk to mine,
hence this public message. (Sorry to the rest of you).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:24:24 -0500 (EST)
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To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Color Temperature Chart of Red hot steel  Please
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	Dear Vo.,

	I am trying to find a copy of the color-temperature chart that
used to be used for heating steel

	I am not sure this is correct, but from memory is is:

	
	In Centigade:

	850 to 950			Red
	950 to 1,050 			bright or cherry Red
	1,050	to	1,150		orange
	1,150 	to	1,250		yellow 
	1,250 to 	1,350 		straw
	1,350	to	1,450		incipient incandescence 
	1,450	to	1,550		incandescence



	Is this correct?

	Can anyone out  there let me know?



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Some general comments in response to remarks by Jed and Standing Bear.

About solar systems, thermal and PV. The significant cost is in the support
and collection systems for the collectors, not so much as the collectors
themselves. Inefficient PV cells may be cheap, but you need more acres of
them than if they were efficient. There are complex tradeoffs which have
been studied to death over decades. Great efforts have gone into designing
passive, non-focusing collector surfaces to concentrate sunlight from a
large area to a small cell. If the cells are extremely cheap, you can cover
buildings with them, but you will then discover other system problems. As
the volume of manufacture increases, the cost comes down, and the optimum
tradeoff in systems design shifts and will continue to shift.

About manufacturing.

If you are making small quantities of something, invest minimal effort in
design and production control and make it fixable with nuts and bolts, etc.
And, it will be expensive.

If you are making large quantities of something, invest heavily in design
for manufacture and manufacturing engineering and manufacturing process
control. The items will be cheaper and more reliable, but not "fixable";
however the life-cycle cost will be lower than for a "fixable" item. This
was the way shown by Edwards Deming, which the Japanese auto industry took
to heart, resulting in high quality, reliable, affordable cars.

If you see a product full of screws, etc., it comes from a country with very
cheap labor and low on the learning curve of efficient manufacture.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 14 19:51:45 2001
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At 11:48 AM 11/14/01 -0800, you wrote:
>John
>         In a colloqium last year I heard a talk about solar cell research,
>based on Si and GaAs, and they approached 30% efficiency by using three
>cells one above the other, which were transparent in some bands letting
>radiation through to lower cells, and absorbed in other frequency regions.
>
>Hank

Yes  there are multi layer cells already in production.  (sort of like 
color film)

Let me hunt for the link to the companies web site.




_________________________________________________________
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	Dear Folks:

	I think these figures are low.....
	Any other contributions?

> 
> Color				deg F	deg C
> faint red visible in dark	750	399
> faint red			900	482
> blood red			1050	565
> dark cherry			1075	579
> medium cherry			1250	677
> cherry or full red		1375	746
> bright red			1550	843
> salmon			1650	899
> orange			1725	940
> lemon				1825	996
> light yellow			1975	1079
> white				2200	1204
> dazzling white		2350	1288
> 


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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: A little help
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 22:17:20 -0500
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On Wednesday 14 November 2001 12:50, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Standing Bear wrote:
> >         Part of the problem may just be our throw-away society.
> >We throw away anything and everything, even people. . . .
>
> As far as I know, most major U.S. durable goods last longer today than they
> did 50 years ago, including such things as automobiles, refrigerators,
> radios, power tools and roofing material. Product warranties and safety are
> greatly improved, thanks to competition and pressure from consumer
> organizations and regulators.

Give you the automobile paint jobs, but refrigerators often quit after 6 years
or so;  roofing material is often a joke today.  I know about roofing 
materials, I have used them in my trailer and RV park.  Believe it, the old
shingles had more aggregate and better bitumen;  less likely to become
brittle with time.....it ALL does, just the new stuff goes to h__ in a 
handbasket much faster.  As to power tools, my son works in a trailer
factory and I have bought power tools for years.  I only buy Milwaukee
that is made in the United States, and my Timothy only buys DeWalt.
All the rest self destruct as soon as they are called on to do real work.
It did not use to be that way.  The old ones were all metal and were
all serviceable.  As one with experience who has actually USED the
equipment and actually worn it out, I must tell you that non user
servicable equipment is largely JUNK.  I will not buy it, and will not
get up on a ladder with it knowing I will be right down the ladder to
replace it.  Prime example of your reference to quality non-servicable
is a Black and Decker drill I once had.  It said variable speed and
claimed on the box to be able to drive screws.  On the first screw
I could smell it cook.  Gave up on that claim and only used it for a
drill from then on.  A year later (one year 'limited warranty.......what
a coincidence?!) the bearings started to sing to me.  On disassembly
I found that the bearing housings were part of a weak PLASTIC webbing
on the inside that had ovaled out.  The whole thing was about to
literally explode out of its' plastic case and tear up its unfortunate
user's hand........or face.  Competition........hah!  Monopolies and
interlocking directorates and international cartels have seen to that.
Regulation........now that is a real howler!  Ever hear of:
      b - r - i - b - e - r - y? and  c - o - r - r - u - p - t - i - o - n?
How about naming industry ex execs to regulatory positions, or political
favors in return for contributions, like when ex President George H. Bush
sold ambassadorships to cronies for $300,000.00 a pop......minor 
countries, of course, but the office came fully equipped with all the
perks and free travel, etc.  I worked in one trailer factory as a design
engineer.  Regularly the Indiana inspector would come by.  My
group leader had his bottle of Jack Daniels ready for him, and it
was an open 'secret' that the company president's secretary
was 'available'.  We NEVER got a writup from those inspectors









>
> This kind of information is more readily available today, thanks to
> government regulations and the Internet.

depends on how much of your privacy you want to trade, or credit
cards, cookies, and romote administration programs! 
>

>
> On the contrary, I have found most Chinese models very shoddy. 

Kindly check the inside of your computer.......yes, yours!  In amongst the
Malaysian chips and Thai drive motors and Korean memory will be
maybe a motherboard that was really made in the People's Republic
notwithstanding any Taiwanese labeling.   Heh!  Heh!   Did you actually
believe all those consumer goods labeled 'Hong Kong' were REALLY 
made there.  Where are they now?  If you believed that, well then I 
know of some land in Florida that would be a real ..........................
Darn, I already sold that to the Easter Bunny!


U.S.  products are often so good they have priced themselves out of the 
market.

Like how we handed the motorcycle industry to the Japanese on a plate.
We as a nation collectively refused to recognize that a market existed for
a reliable small motorcycle.  All we were willing to sell the public was
an unsafe motor scooter, a Cushman, for $1200 in the early 1960's  Along
came Honda with the 305cc 'Dream' that was stylish, much safer
larger wheels meant larger radius of gyration and far mor stable gyroscopic
stability.  The dream ran like a Swiss watch and did so for years.  It
did not leak oil or break the rider's tailbone in normal riding.  It had
brakes that worked and its cables did not constantly break.  You could
actually find the gears in the transmission and it would not automatically
dump its rider on a bumpy road or a gravel one.  It had a top speed......
I could go on.  Americans voted with their wallets for that product
which gave value for the money.  Where is Cushman now?
Do you even remember it ?  Were you living then?  We had a bad
product and arrogantly thought that no one would take our customers
from us.  How wrong our corporate domestic monopolists were!



> >Even the lowest toy is put together with screws.  Many screws!  Yes! Even
> >the toys are maintainable.  The Chinese have a reverence for science and
> >the future that is to be commended.
>
> I admire Chinese civilization as much as anyone, but their manufacturers
> and political leaders are not know for having a reverence for science, the
> future, or anything else. They are rapacious, corrupt and money grubbing,
> unrestrained by traditions or legal restrictions. I have not seen screws in
> many Chinese goods. For that kind of "quality" look at Japanese products.
> Actually, that is probably a sign of obsolescence rather than quality.
> Screws work loose and fall out. Other fasteners are more reliable, although
> some cannot be opened.

My grandson has many toys.  Just about all of them seem to be from China
The People's Republic.....even if the 'people' do not really have a free
voting choice on who will lead their 'republic'.  They ALL have screws
in them.  Only the Chinese toys seem to me made this way.  Even the
plastic ones.  They do not work loose in the normal life of the toy.  I got
one of my young man's toys, a squirt gun, to use to repel our cat from
jumping up on our dining table at mealtimes.  It was put together with
screws as well, with a small tank inside for the water.  It did not leak!
Just about every squirt gun made here did.  They were just two halfs
of plastic glued together badly and plunked into the stores to sell for
59 cents.  Probably more now.
	As for technology.  In the early days of Chinese market
penetration of our country, floppy discs were the carriers of software.
Chinese disks always seemed to be wrapped in  heavy gold foil
lined multicolored printed kraft envelopes with string clasps, as if
they thought it was something special to them.  The manuals from
them always had some laughers in them in the grammar, but were
reasonably complete.
	I think that you miss the point on the corruption.  Communism
teaches honest in personal affairs, yet feels free to lie whenever
it is felt that it furthers some 'end'.  Some of it may be there, but the
penalty if caught is very severe.......death! for personal embezzlers,
etc.  They have them.  Many of them.  They catch them too.  And
shoot them after show trials.  Witness their 'Strike Hard!' campaign
sweeping their country now.  They are not innocent children, and
as a government have lied about much.  Mostly about the slave
labor camps used to produce goods for our consumer market.   That
is why we under 'free trade' cannot make our own consumer goods .
Our factories cannot  compete with slave labor producing the same
goods with the same machines that we would use.  Besides, our
factories have all moved to China anyway.  If we ever fought a
war with China, we would have to go naked and barefooted.  The
rapaciousness has been our own.  Offered deals and low wage
environments, and bought and paid for officials over here singing
the mantra of 'free trade', our means of production has steadily
and inexorably been making a 'long march' of its own to Sczhenzhen
Province in China north of Hong Kong.  It is we who are corrupt.
Corrupt to the very soul.  God help us all!!
>
> Many products, such as bearings on automobiles, had to be maintained in the
> 1950s, but today they are in a sealed, inaccessible module. They cannot be
> maintained. Once they wear out, they can only be replaced. This is not a
> sign of laziness, or decreased quality, and it is not a waste of resources.
> Sealed bearings last longer. They can be fabricated with greater precision
> so they produce less friction and thus save energy. They are less likely to
> catch on fire than the old-fashioned ones. It takes less labor to replace
> them, so automobile mechanics can be more productive and earn a decent
> living. 

I was in on some of the design of these 'non-servicable' bearings.  What
you really mean is ball joints.  Bearings have always been servicable
in autos here and really always will.  There is no such thing as a 
really 'sealed' bearing.  Ball joints in the early seventies
and late sixties had no grease injection joints.  A decent grease had
been formulated that was said to be reliable for 50,000 miles, or so
Ford executives had claimed.  It was not to be.  No auto reliablility
lab could really effectively duplicate field conditions in extremis, and
winter in the northeast was certainly that.  I had such joints on my
1973 Mercury Monterrey.  When the ball joints went dry and made
noise, I found that no grease injectors were there.  In their place
were small plugs!   My mechanic replaced these with injectors
and lubed my joints.  I was a student then and informed my bosses
in the engineering department what I had found.  They then showed
me a mountain of warrantee claims kept in a large office building
in south Dearborn that were going to force a change to the sealed
ball joint design.  It was an experiment that had failed.  Its design
had been calculated to reduce maintainance labor; this would 
have resulted in many mechanics actually losing their jobs had it
really worked.



Our society puts more value on human labor -- people's time -- than
> materials. 

No it does'nt.  Look at how slave labor in China is depressing our
wage structure.  There will be a 'day of reckoning', and that will be
when our overburdened 'middle class' finally realizes that it is'nt
any more and starts to live within its means.....poverty.  When they
stop buying, the whole house of cards of international corporate
monopolists will start to crumble......fast!

That's a good thing. If scrap material increases significantly
> because of that decision, and waste becomes a problem, it should be
> recycled.



Ever been to a recycling center?   Ever even been to a city dump!?
I used to manage a solid waste program for the Air Force.  Believe
it, you have NEVER in your entire life seen a more heterogeneous
mixture less tractable to mechanized recycling
>

Humbly,,,

Standing Bear
rockcast net-link.net

If we do not run out of energy and starve in the dark and freeze,
we will drown in our own trash!   Look at the garbage blob that
every once in a while shows signs of moving back toward
New York  from its restless watery grave.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 15 19:39:40 2001
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Pg. 530 of the Procedures in Experimental Physicsm, Table VIII, give the
following generic color temperatures (it doesn't specify steel):

Color 			Approximate Temperature (deg. C)
Incipient Red Heat	500 to 550
Dark Red Heat		700
Bright Red Heat		900
Yellowish-Red Heat	1100
Incipient White Heat	1300
White Heat		1500

Or try this:
http://www.sweethaven.com/academic/lessons/021100/00/tab0201.gif



John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Dear Folks:
> 
>         I think these figures are low.....
>         Any other contributions?
> 
> >
> > Color                         deg F   deg C
> > faint red visible in dark     750     399
> > faint red                     900     482
> > blood red                     1050    565
> > dark cherry                   1075    579
> > medium cherry                 1250    677
> > cherry or full red            1375    746
> > bright red                    1550    843
> > salmon                        1650    899
> > orange                        1725    940
> > lemon                         1825    996
> > light yellow                  1975    1079
> > white                         2200    1204
> > dazzling white                2350    1288
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 15 19:45:02 2001
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 21:44:33 +0000
To: herman antioch-college.edu
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: A little help
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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John:

I talked to Morice this afternoon about solar panel refurbishing.  He seems 
rather excited about it.  Here is a brief plan for pulling it off should he 
decide to go forward with this service.

First thing is to acquire some panels that are at/near there end of 
service.  Time and cost estimates can be made for several types of panels 
on disassembling the array cleaning and re-fitting.  These people are 
excellent at rebuilding electronics and special process devices.  They even 
do LCD and plasma displays.

Once a cost estimate is made then the word can be put out to solar 
equipment dealers
that unserviceable arrays can be recycled. The first panels can be 
purchased at 10% of the replacement value.  Once some stock is built up in 
the used equipment then a core charge/rebate can be set up.

This will offer a cost break to the replacement panel buyer and possibly 
attract new buyers to the industry if you place the cost of a rebuilt array 
at something like 70% that of a new one.

Still no go without first analyzing some dead arrays.

I you know where we can get some I would appreciate it




_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 15 23:35:50 2001
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	I will scout around


On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Charles Ford wrote:

> John:
> 
> I talked to Morice this afternoon about solar panel refurbishing.  He seems 
> rather excited about it.  Here is a brief plan for pulling it off should he 
> decide to go forward with this service.
> 
> First thing is to acquire some panels that are at/near there end of 
> service.  Time and cost estimates can be made for several types of panels 
> on disassembling the array cleaning and re-fitting.  These people are 
> excellent at rebuilding electronics and special process devices.  They even 
> do LCD and plasma displays.
> 
> Once a cost estimate is made then the word can be put out to solar 
> equipment dealers
> that unserviceable arrays can be recycled. The first panels can be 
> purchased at 10% of the replacement value.  Once some stock is built up in 
> the used equipment then a core charge/rebate can be set up.
> 
> This will offer a cost break to the replacement panel buyer and possibly 
> attract new buyers to the industry if you place the cost of a rebuilt array 
> at something like 70% that of a new one.
> 
> Still no go without first analyzing some dead arrays.
> 
> I you know where we can get some I would appreciate it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@infinite-energy.com>
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	Dear SB,

	It is OK to show beefs ...but I am trying to work toward better..


	Here in US Norcold makes an ammonia absorbtion refridgerator, zero
moving parts.... last 30 to 80 years..... there is an 80 year one running
in Dayton OH.

	Not everything is poorly made.


	Do you know of any people or groups that want real world direct
energy conversion?




					J

				

On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Standing Bear wrote:

> On Wednesday 14 November 2001 12:50, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > Standing Bear wrote:
> > >         Part of the problem may just be our throw-away society.
> > >We throw away anything and everything, even people. . . .
> >
> > As far as I know, most major U.S. durable goods last longer today than they
> > did 50 years ago, including such things as automobiles, refrigerators,
> > radios, power tools and roofing material. Product warranties and safety are
> > greatly improved, thanks to competition and pressure from consumer
> > organizations and regulators.
> 
> Give you the automobile paint jobs, but refrigerators often quit after 6 years
> or so;  roofing material is often a joke today.  I know about roofing 
> materials, I have used them in my trailer and RV park.  Believe it, the old
> shingles had more aggregate and better bitumen;  less likely to become
> brittle with time.....it ALL does, just the new stuff goes to h__ in a 
> handbasket much faster.  As to power tools, my son works in a trailer
> factory and I have bought power tools for years.  I only buy Milwaukee
> that is made in the United States, and my Timothy only buys DeWalt.
> All the rest self destruct as soon as they are called on to do real work.
> It did not use to be that way.  The old ones were all metal and were
> all serviceable.  As one with experience who has actually USED the
> equipment and actually worn it out, I must tell you that non user
> servicable equipment is largely JUNK.  I will not buy it, and will not
> get up on a ladder with it knowing I will be right down the ladder to
> replace it.  Prime example of your reference to quality non-servicable
> is a Black and Decker drill I once had.  It said variable speed and
> claimed on the box to be able to drive screws.  On the first screw
> I could smell it cook.  Gave up on that claim and only used it for a
> drill from then on.  A year later (one year 'limited warranty.......what
> a coincidence?!) the bearings started to sing to me.  On disassembly
> I found that the bearing housings were part of a weak PLASTIC webbing
> on the inside that had ovaled out.  The whole thing was about to
> literally explode out of its' plastic case and tear up its unfortunate
> user's hand........or face.  Competition........hah!  Monopolies and
> interlocking directorates and international cartels have seen to that.
> Regulation........now that is a real howler!  Ever hear of:
>       b - r - i - b - e - r - y? and  c - o - r - r - u - p - t - i - o - n?
> How about naming industry ex execs to regulatory positions, or political
> favors in return for contributions, like when ex President George H. Bush
> sold ambassadorships to cronies for $300,000.00 a pop......minor 
> countries, of course, but the office came fully equipped with all the
> perks and free travel, etc.  I worked in one trailer factory as a design
> engineer.  Regularly the Indiana inspector would come by.  My
> group leader had his bottle of Jack Daniels ready for him, and it
> was an open 'secret' that the company president's secretary
> was 'available'.  We NEVER got a writup from those inspectors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > This kind of information is more readily available today, thanks to
> > government regulations and the Internet.
> 
> depends on how much of your privacy you want to trade, or credit
> cards, cookies, and romote administration programs! 
> >
> 
> >
> > On the contrary, I have found most Chinese models very shoddy. 
> 
> Kindly check the inside of your computer.......yes, yours!  In amongst the
> Malaysian chips and Thai drive motors and Korean memory will be
> maybe a motherboard that was really made in the People's Republic
> notwithstanding any Taiwanese labeling.   Heh!  Heh!   Did you actually
> believe all those consumer goods labeled 'Hong Kong' were REALLY 
> made there.  Where are they now?  If you believed that, well then I 
> know of some land in Florida that would be a real ..........................
> Darn, I already sold that to the Easter Bunny!
> 
> 
> U.S.  products are often so good they have priced themselves out of the 
> market.
> 
> Like how we handed the motorcycle industry to the Japanese on a plate.
> We as a nation collectively refused to recognize that a market existed for
> a reliable small motorcycle.  All we were willing to sell the public was
> an unsafe motor scooter, a Cushman, for $1200 in the early 1960's  Along
> came Honda with the 305cc 'Dream' that was stylish, much safer
> larger wheels meant larger radius of gyration and far mor stable gyroscopic
> stability.  The dream ran like a Swiss watch and did so for years.  It
> did not leak oil or break the rider's tailbone in normal riding.  It had
> brakes that worked and its cables did not constantly break.  You could
> actually find the gears in the transmission and it would not automatically
> dump its rider on a bumpy road or a gravel one.  It had a top speed......
> I could go on.  Americans voted with their wallets for that product
> which gave value for the money.  Where is Cushman now?
> Do you even remember it ?  Were you living then?  We had a bad
> product and arrogantly thought that no one would take our customers
> from us.  How wrong our corporate domestic monopolists were!
> 
> 
> 
> > >Even the lowest toy is put together with screws.  Many screws!  Yes! Even
> > >the toys are maintainable.  The Chinese have a reverence for science and
> > >the future that is to be commended.
> >
> > I admire Chinese civilization as much as anyone, but their manufacturers
> > and political leaders are not know for having a reverence for science, the
> > future, or anything else. They are rapacious, corrupt and money grubbing,
> > unrestrained by traditions or legal restrictions. I have not seen screws in
> > many Chinese goods. For that kind of "quality" look at Japanese products.
> > Actually, that is probably a sign of obsolescence rather than quality.
> > Screws work loose and fall out. Other fasteners are more reliable, although
> > some cannot be opened.
> 
> My grandson has many toys.  Just about all of them seem to be from China
> The People's Republic.....even if the 'people' do not really have a free
> voting choice on who will lead their 'republic'.  They ALL have screws
> in them.  Only the Chinese toys seem to me made this way.  Even the
> plastic ones.  They do not work loose in the normal life of the toy.  I got
> one of my young man's toys, a squirt gun, to use to repel our cat from
> jumping up on our dining table at mealtimes.  It was put together with
> screws as well, with a small tank inside for the water.  It did not leak!
> Just about every squirt gun made here did.  They were just two halfs
> of plastic glued together badly and plunked into the stores to sell for
> 59 cents.  Probably more now.
> 	As for technology.  In the early days of Chinese market
> penetration of our country, floppy discs were the carriers of software.
> Chinese disks always seemed to be wrapped in  heavy gold foil
> lined multicolored printed kraft envelopes with string clasps, as if
> they thought it was something special to them.  The manuals from
> them always had some laughers in them in the grammar, but were
> reasonably complete.
> 	I think that you miss the point on the corruption.  Communism
> teaches honest in personal affairs, yet feels free to lie whenever
> it is felt that it furthers some 'end'.  Some of it may be there, but the
> penalty if caught is very severe.......death! for personal embezzlers,
> etc.  They have them.  Many of them.  They catch them too.  And
> shoot them after show trials.  Witness their 'Strike Hard!' campaign
> sweeping their country now.  They are not innocent children, and
> as a government have lied about much.  Mostly about the slave
> labor camps used to produce goods for our consumer market.   That
> is why we under 'free trade' cannot make our own consumer goods .
> Our factories cannot  compete with slave labor producing the same
> goods with the same machines that we would use.  Besides, our
> factories have all moved to China anyway.  If we ever fought a
> war with China, we would have to go naked and barefooted.  The
> rapaciousness has been our own.  Offered deals and low wage
> environments, and bought and paid for officials over here singing
> the mantra of 'free trade', our means of production has steadily
> and inexorably been making a 'long march' of its own to Sczhenzhen
> Province in China north of Hong Kong.  It is we who are corrupt.
> Corrupt to the very soul.  God help us all!!
> >
> > Many products, such as bearings on automobiles, had to be maintained in the
> > 1950s, but today they are in a sealed, inaccessible module. They cannot be
> > maintained. Once they wear out, they can only be replaced. This is not a
> > sign of laziness, or decreased quality, and it is not a waste of resources.
> > Sealed bearings last longer. They can be fabricated with greater precision
> > so they produce less friction and thus save energy. They are less likely to
> > catch on fire than the old-fashioned ones. It takes less labor to replace
> > them, so automobile mechanics can be more productive and earn a decent
> > living. 
> 
> I was in on some of the design of these 'non-servicable' bearings.  What
> you really mean is ball joints.  Bearings have always been servicable
> in autos here and really always will.  There is no such thing as a 
> really 'sealed' bearing.  Ball joints in the early seventies
> and late sixties had no grease injection joints.  A decent grease had
> been formulated that was said to be reliable for 50,000 miles, or so
> Ford executives had claimed.  It was not to be.  No auto reliablility
> lab could really effectively duplicate field conditions in extremis, and
> winter in the northeast was certainly that.  I had such joints on my
> 1973 Mercury Monterrey.  When the ball joints went dry and made
> noise, I found that no grease injectors were there.  In their place
> were small plugs!   My mechanic replaced these with injectors
> and lubed my joints.  I was a student then and informed my bosses
> in the engineering department what I had found.  They then showed
> me a mountain of warrantee claims kept in a large office building
> in south Dearborn that were going to force a change to the sealed
> ball joint design.  It was an experiment that had failed.  Its design
> had been calculated to reduce maintainance labor; this would 
> have resulted in many mechanics actually losing their jobs had it
> really worked.
> 
> 
> 
> Our society puts more value on human labor -- people's time -- than
> > materials. 
> 
> No it does'nt.  Look at how slave labor in China is depressing our
> wage structure.  There will be a 'day of reckoning', and that will be
> when our overburdened 'middle class' finally realizes that it is'nt
> any more and starts to live within its means.....poverty.  When they
> stop buying, the whole house of cards of international corporate
> monopolists will start to crumble......fast!
> 
> That's a good thing. If scrap material increases significantly
> > because of that decision, and waste becomes a problem, it should be
> > recycled.
> 
> 
> 
> Ever been to a recycling center?   Ever even been to a city dump!?
> I used to manage a solid waste program for the Air Force.  Believe
> it, you have NEVER in your entire life seen a more heterogeneous
> mixture less tractable to mechanized recycling
> >
> 
> Humbly,,,
> 
> Standing Bear
> rockcast net-link.net
> 
> If we do not run out of energy and starve in the dark and freeze,
> we will drown in our own trash!   Look at the garbage blob that
> every once in a while shows signs of moving back toward
> New York  from its restless watery grave.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 16 00:34:14 2001
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To: Vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Konzen claims overunity output
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>From: "konehead" <konehead msn.com>
>
>
>Hi
>
>Well the Muller machine REALLY works.
>
>The machines Bill Muller has working right now are amazing...
>
>see at:
>www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com
>
>check out the "big hydrogen generator" link...click on "go there" if you
>dont want to see the videos, but want to see the photos...
>
>
>
>my pulse-motors are also shown on this site of mine:
>http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx
>
>
>
>I made a replica of a 8magnet/14coil Muller plate generator and turn it with
>a DC motor and just  use weak ceramic magnets...see here:
>http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/mullerplategenerator.html
>
>wtih 72W in, I get 170W out!!
>
>No fucking kidding and this is with all the coils "loaded" (shorted out) to
>get the maximum electrical drag....
>
>Never worked woith th Hamel spinners myself, but have heard of success with
>them   Bill Beatty has some write ups on them I have read recently.
>
>ciao
>Konehead
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
>To: <konehead msn.com>
>Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 9:18 AM
>
>
>>  Dear Mr. Konzen;
>>
>>  We were having a discussion on Vortex-L about Muller Magnetics and
>>  your name came up as someone who had worked with his technology. I
>>  talked to Mr. Muller several years ago and passed on it because there
>>  was no reason that it should work. Have you done any work with the
>>  Hammel machine?
>>
>>  Sincerely
>>
>>  Thomas Malloy
>>  --
>>


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 16 09:58:04 2001
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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:09:21 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Science & learning as liberation Jihad
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This is somewhat off topic, but I am sure everyone is thinking about it. 
Here are some quotes from a letter by Izzat Majeed, published in last 
Friday's popular Pakistani daily The Nation, and quoted in the New York Times:

http//www.nytimes.com/2001/11/16/opinion/16FRIE.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"We Muslims cannot keep blaming the West for all our ills. . . . The 
embarrassment of wretchedness among us is beyond repair. It is not just the 
poverty, the illiteracy and the absence of any commonly accepted social 
contract that define our sense of wretchedness; it is, rather, the 
increasing awareness among us that we have failed as a civil society by not 
confronting the historical, social and political demons within us.

Without a reformation in the practice of Islam that makes it move forward 
and not backward, there is no hope for us Muslims anywhere. . . . For more 
than a thousand years Islam has stood still because the mullahs, who became 
de facto clergy instead of genuine scholars, closed the door on `ijtehad' 
[reinterpreting Islam in light of modernity] . . .

Oxford and Cambridge were the `madrasas' of Christendom in the 13th 
century. Look where they are today -- among the leading institutions of 
education in the world. Where are our institutions of learning?"

[Addressing bin Laden, Mr. Majeed concluded] "The last thing [Muslims] need 
is the growing darkness in your caves. . . . True Jihad today is not in the 
hijacking of planes, but in the manufacturing of them."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Needless to say, we are also held back by people who despise and fear 
science, modernity and the future. The problem is more pronounced in Muslim 
countries, but it afflicts everyone. To some extent, it is healthy to fear 
the unknown, to explore the future cautiously, and to preserve the past. It 
is healthy to be skeptical, and to demand many replications of an 
experiment before you believe the results. But some people go to extremes. 
A healthy, conservative instinct taken too far becomes pathological.

In my opinion, Francis Bacon was the founder of modern science, almost as 
great as Newton himself. He founded the culture, the philosophy or 
world-view. As Loren Eiseley wrote: "I have said that science does not come 
easily to men; they must be made to envision its possibilities. This was 
Bacon's role, and it is sheer folly to dismiss him, as some have sought to 
do, because he personally made no inventions. He did far more; by eloquence 
and an unparalleled glimpse of the possibilities contained in the new 
learning, he forced a backward-oriented culture to contemplate its own future."

Bacon considered the philosophy of science a fragile, transient thing -- a 
fringe philosophy, which would probably be crushed by war, plague 
or  barbarian invasions. He wrote in Latin because he feared English might 
be lost in a few centuries, the way other languages had been. He expected 
the Dark Ages to return, but he hoped that some part of his ideas, and the 
philosophy of science, would be preserved and would bloom again after each 
disaster. Nowadays we assume that science and technology are permanent 
institutions. We assume they are robust, everyone knows how much benefit 
they bring, and is in favor of them. We do not think of them as cultural 
artifacts -- a set of attitudes -- that might eventually stagnate or be 
forgotten. A hundred generations from now, we assume people will still know 
as much as we do, plus a great deal more, and they will still allow free 
enquiry.

When the Egyptian Pharaohs ruled, there was a large ministry assigned to 
administer their tombs. It protected and maintained the property and kept 
careful records. A thief was captured trying to break into a tomb. 
Bureaucrats and judges questioned him in detail during a formal trial, 
which they recorded his name, age, his confession, and so on in detailed 
minutes. Archeologists unearthed the records a few years ago. These people 
must have assumed their ministry was a vital, essential institution that 
would last forever. They probably did not imagine that someday no would be 
left to guard the tombs. No one would care. The very location of many tombs 
would be forgotten. No institution -- no nation, way of life, philosophy or 
economic system -- is so strong and so beneficial that it is immune to 
stagnation and decay. Julian Schwinger was not exaggerating or being an 
alarmist when he said the oppression of cold fusion "will be the death of 
science."

Schwinger understood, as Bacon did, that people can be barbaric, great 
ideas can be lost, civilizations can go dreadfully astray for generations. 
Science will not die overnight, but the oppression of cold fusion may  mark 
the beginning of a long decline, a gradual hollowing out and negation of 
academic freedom. Since 1989 a generation of researchers has come of age 
which is comfortable with the idea that scientists should be ridiculed, 
persecuted, pilloried in the press and science journals, and hounded out of 
tenured positions because they want to investigate an unpopular idea in 
physics. This is a *very* serious problem. It is a long term problem, like 
the destruction of the rain forests or the overuse of antibiotics. It gets 
worse by degrees, as the old scientists retire, and the young who have 
known only conformity, stasis, and rule by fear take over.

Muslim nations once led the world in natural science and mathematics. We 
hope they will once again reclaim their traditions. I hope that we do not 
allow our own version of the Taliban, the publishers and the APS, to 
strangle these traditions in the meanwhile.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 16 14:25:44 2001
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Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:06:28 +1300
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
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An old idea I'm not about to do anything with personally:

Take a long laminated steel core.

Wind a coil (coil 1) on the center of it.

Wind another coil over the first but with a spacer separating it by a
few inches making the diameter of coil 2 much greater.
Give coil 2 more turns than coil 1, say 25% more.

Now connect coil 1 & 2 in series so that if current were to flow
clockwise through coil 1 it would be flowing counter clockwise through
coil 2.

Now if you apply a current the magnetic field from coil 1 will
predominate in the center, than much I know, so the steel will be
magnetized by coil 1.

Now the magnetic field from coil 1 as it expands induces an EMF that
opposes the current in this coil, this is of course inductance and on
collapse will try and keep the current flowing.

But that magnetic field from coil 1 is also inducing an EMF in coil 2 in
the reverse direction, and more strongly as it has more turns.

Obviously the magnetic field from coil 2 is also creating a somewhat
weaker magnetic field that is inducing both it's self and coil 1.

Anyway as the magnetic field from coil 1 is considerably stronger than
from coil 2 thanks to the steel core it's EMF is greater.

So now as we apply a current to the two coils we see the magnetic field
and EMF from coil 1 predominates, yet the 25% more turns from coil 2
should mean more voltage in induced in it from coil 1's magnetic field.
This means if everything is done right it would seem we have NEGATIVE
inductance.

I don't know if it will work out like that but the theory seems
interesting.
I did actually have an idea for another device that creates negative
inductance, it was a bifilar coil negatively charged.
I mentioned it in a Free Energy chat room and on Vortex, then an
appropriate amount of time later the exact same idea with the same
explanation was posted on the web:
http://www.geocities.com/nayado/
(I have no idea if it was just someone with the same idea or if he heard
me talk about it)

It's just an idea I'm probably not going to try so I figure I'd put it
out there for other people not to try too!

This idea might be interesting to Dough K and other magnet
motor/generator people.
Because if you used such a coil as a generator the magnetic field from
the magnets would saturate and induce an EMF in coil 2 (that would be
75% canceled by coil 1 but never the less) but the magnetic field of
coil 1 would be felt by the magnet, so it's anti lenz law, it's a motor
too.

I have seem motor/generators that people claimed worked and they had
such a setup.
Even if in such a case you only had coil 1 have a few turns placed at
the end of the core (closest to the magnet) it should still tip things
in favor of over unity so I suggest that all those who make such motors
try this it at least a little, it might make some difference and can't
really hurt.

I also have another idea that I've verified does strange things if any
of them want to contact me privately.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 16 14:53:52 2001
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Subject: Re: Negative inductance
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Strange things?  Details, please!

> I also have another idea that I've verified does strange things if any
> of them want to contact me privately.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 16 15:16:03 2001
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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:31:23 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
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Subject: Re: Negative inductance
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John
	Get an engineering or physics textbook, and lookup Mutual
Inductance, and series connections of inductance.

Hank



On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, John Berry wrote:

> An old idea I'm not about to do anything with personally:
> 
> Take a long laminated steel core.
> 
> Wind a coil (coil 1) on the center of it.
> 
> Wind another coil over the first but with a spacer separating it by a
> few inches making the diameter of coil 2 much greater.
> Give coil 2 more turns than coil 1, say 25% more.
> 
> Now connect coil 1 & 2 in series so that if current were to flow
> clockwise through coil 1 it would be flowing counter clockwise through
> coil 2.
> 
> Now if you apply a current the magnetic field from coil 1 will
> predominate in the center, than much I know, so the steel will be
> magnetized by coil 1.
> 
> Now the magnetic field from coil 1 as it expands induces an EMF that
> opposes the current in this coil, this is of course inductance and on
> collapse will try and keep the current flowing.
> 
> But that magnetic field from coil 1 is also inducing an EMF in coil 2 in
> the reverse direction, and more strongly as it has more turns.
> 
> Obviously the magnetic field from coil 2 is also creating a somewhat
> weaker magnetic field that is inducing both it's self and coil 1.
> 
> Anyway as the magnetic field from coil 1 is considerably stronger than
> from coil 2 thanks to the steel core it's EMF is greater.
> 
> So now as we apply a current to the two coils we see the magnetic field
> and EMF from coil 1 predominates, yet the 25% more turns from coil 2
> should mean more voltage in induced in it from coil 1's magnetic field.
> This means if everything is done right it would seem we have NEGATIVE
> inductance.
> 
> I don't know if it will work out like that but the theory seems
> interesting.
> I did actually have an idea for another device that creates negative
> inductance, it was a bifilar coil negatively charged.
> I mentioned it in a Free Energy chat room and on Vortex, then an
> appropriate amount of time later the exact same idea with the same
> explanation was posted on the web:
> http://www.geocities.com/nayado/
> (I have no idea if it was just someone with the same idea or if he heard
> me talk about it)
> 
> It's just an idea I'm probably not going to try so I figure I'd put it
> out there for other people not to try too!
> 
> This idea might be interesting to Dough K and other magnet
> motor/generator people.
> Because if you used such a coil as a generator the magnetic field from
> the magnets would saturate and induce an EMF in coil 2 (that would be
> 75% canceled by coil 1 but never the less) but the magnetic field of
> coil 1 would be felt by the magnet, so it's anti lenz law, it's a motor
> too.
> 
> I have seem motor/generators that people claimed worked and they had
> such a setup.
> Even if in such a case you only had coil 1 have a few turns placed at
> the end of the core (closest to the magnet) it should still tip things
> in favor of over unity so I suggest that all those who make such motors
> try this it at least a little, it might make some difference and can't
> really hurt.
> 
> I also have another idea that I've verified does strange things if any
> of them want to contact me privately.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 16 15:46:05 2001
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hank scudder wrote:

> John
>         Get an engineering or physics textbook, and lookup Mutual
> Inductance, and series connections of inductance.

They sure don't cover anything like that ;)

I think you need to reread what I said, if that's still your view then you
just don't get it.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 16 16:59:08 2001
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Subject: Re: Negative inductance
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On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, John Berry wrote:

> An old idea I'm not about to do anything with personally:
> 
> Take a long laminated steel core.
> 
> Wind a coil (coil 1) on the center of it.
> 
> Wind another coil over the first but with a spacer separating it by a
> few inches making the diameter of coil 2 much greater.
> Give coil 2 more turns than coil 1, say 25% more.

Ah, you mean the Cook patent from 1871!

:)

See:

  DF Cook's "electro-magnetic battery"
  http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/CookCoil.htm


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 16 17:40:36 2001
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Subject: General ...Re: Negative inductance (fwd)
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Subject: Re: Negative inductance




	On the topic of Negative Inductance:

	This is one of my favorite-of-all-time aspects of

	THE
		Applied Sciences of Experimentalist Physics

	OK:
	If you examine an inductor electrically it has some attributes, or
how it behaves.  
	   A)	As a VERY loose and General description of these...

	1) an Inductor tends to impede the flow of AC ... or impedes
changes in an electric current and it exhibits no or low attenuation of
DC. 
	L is the symbol for inductance. 

	   B)	Resistor ...attenuates AC and DC and anything else with 
		the same  "Vigah" to use the words of the late or passed
			over President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

	R is the symbol of Resistance

	   C) 	Capacitor is Sort Of the opposite of L in its Loose and
			VERY
		  General  properties: 
		  it impedes DC... and AC passes  through with little or
			no Attenuation
		 
        C is the symbol for Capacitance

	NOW: .... I bring you with to where we are in the
		Electronic Signal Processing domain and we say L,R,C.

	We have these great tools we call Active electronic elements,
		including but not limited to: 

	Vacuum tubes
	Transistors
	Diodes

	And a BUNCH of other more specialized devices .... some employ
condensed matter, or solid state physics, some employ Plasma, some employ
OTHER methods .... diacs...magnetic amplifiers ... dielectric amplifiers
... and on and on....

	Well.....

	I can use these active elements and build circuits to do all kinds
of things.... and ONE of the things I can do is to manufacture Artificial
Electronic Elements or to abbreviate this, AEE.
	Some of these AEE may include, and are by NO means limited to
		...and only imagination is the limiting factor

	"Perfect" or ideal diodes with no forward voltage drop
	Amplifiers with NO offset
	Power Optical Transistors
		OR
	I can build circuits or devices which exhibit 
	Properties of Physics or Mathmatics ... such as
logarithm function amplifier or anti-log amp ...

		AND..... the part that started this:  

	When I was learning about some of he more out-of-the-way signal
processing stuff it struck me one day that... in the purely electronic
domain that .... 	I can build a capacitor!  Or an L R or C element
and such an element can be infinitely variable in its adjustability,
within, of course, the qualities, properties and Capabilities of the
Active and Passive circuit components used to make the artificial L R or
C.....
	AND..... the LRC can be positive OR negative !!!

						J
	POST SCRIPTS:	 

	It is possible to built Negative L or other system parts that do
all kinds of things .....

	As example:

	In some sensor tasks the cable which is often a coaxial cable,
which carries a signal from a remote transducer exhibits capacitance and
the capacitance reduces or attenuates the higher frequency components
of the signals of interest.

	By using an adjustable negative C or Negative Capacitance circuit
a designer
can actually "dial out" the effect of the capacitance of the cable.. and
you can see this right on the spot. 
	If you use a square wave signal source with an impedance about the
same as the actual transducer and watch the rounded corners of the trace
on an oscilloscope you can see the effect of the cable capacitance.
	You can then connect the negative C circuit and watch the image of
the time history of the square wave signal being attenuated and in real
time you can adjust the degree of Neg C until the square wave's corners
are nicely sharp again.

	This is really enjoyable to me to have seen it the first time,
almost as though a magic djinni fixed things up

						J


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 16 17:43:42 2001
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To: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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	Dear Bill,


	What is the Cook CIP thing that is supposed to be a propulsion?
	Is there a patent or patents for this?

	Please and Thank you...

On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, William Beaty wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, John Berry wrote:
> 
> > An old idea I'm not about to do anything with personally:
> > 
> > Take a long laminated steel core.
> > 
> > Wind a coil (coil 1) on the center of it.
> > 
> > Wind another coil over the first but with a spacer separating it by a
> > few inches making the diameter of coil 2 much greater.
> > Give coil 2 more turns than coil 1, say 25% more.
> 
> Ah, you mean the Cook patent from 1871!
> 
> :)
> 
> See:
> 
>   DF Cook's "electro-magnetic battery"
>   http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/CookCoil.htm
> 
> 
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 16 18:14:04 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Need Vendor  reconditioned lab equipment Dewar Cryogenic Please
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NEED SOURCE FOR DEWAR FLASK


	Dear Vo.,

	Looking for a dewar 10 to 25 liters for storage and transport..


	Thanks....

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 16 18:25:59 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Nov 16, 2001
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:07:25 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 16 Nov 01   Washington, DC

1. SEPTEMBER 11: THE SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING SCHOLARSHIP FUND. 
More than 30 organizations within the science and engineering
communities have jointly established a fund to support science
and engineering education of the families of victims of the
September 11 attack.   The fund will be administered by the
Citizens Scholarship Foundation of America, and is part of the
Families of Freedom Scholarship Fund chaired jointly by former
President Bill Clinton and former Senate Majority Leader Bob
Dole. For more information see: www.aps.org/sciencefund.html 

2. BIOTERRORISM: ALTERNATIVE RESPONSES TO EXPOSURE.  The chair of
the House Government Reform Committee, Dan Burton (R-IN), held a
hearing Wednesday on how to respond to bio-terrorist attacks. 
Burton can't understand why we don't just treat this stuff with
alternative medicine (WN 19 Oct 01).  For Burton, this is nothing
new; in a 1999 hearing on Alternative Medicine his lead witness
was Jane Seymour, who played Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman on TV (WN
12 Feb 99).  This time, however, Stephen Straus, director of the
National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine was
testifying, and it wasn't what Burton wanted to hear.  Straus
questioned "whether the measures that some are promoting do
anything more than prey upon people's fears and distract them
from taking more prudent steps to protect themselves...It may not
even be prudent to combine such natural products with antibiotics
because of the possibility that they would interfere with proper
action of the drugs."  Perhaps fearing a backlash, many in the 
alternative medicine industry have issued unprecedented warnings
to the public not to use their products to treat or cure anthrax.

3. NASA: THE GOLDIN AGE FINALLY COMES TO AN END.  Sean O'Keefe,
deputy director of the Office of Management and Budget, and a
financial expert, has been nominated to replace Dan Goldin as
NASA Administrator (WN 19 Oct 01).  O'Keefe's main assignment
will be to establish budgetary discipline in the troubled agency. 
About half of NASA's budget goes to programs involving humans in
space, and of course that's where the trouble lies.  With the
space station crew down to a Mir-sized three, far short of
taxpayer expectations, NASA is bracing for a deep culture shock. 
The budget just passed diverts money from human space flight to
Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland, Rep. Weldon of Florida 
complained.  Good heavens, they might even do some science.

4. THE SUMMIT: NO AGREEMENT WAS REACHED ON MISSILE DEFENSE.  This
is not bad.  For the time being, the United States will continue
to abide by the 1972 ABM treaty.  It's not like we had an ABM
system to install in any case, but the U.S. will continue
searching for the sorcerer's stone, and could withdraw later.  In
the meantime, both sides will reduce their nuclear arsenals. 

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. 
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 16 18:36:09 2001
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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011116202721.29371H-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: General ...Re: Negative inductance (fwd)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 21:28:27 -0500
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John,

Can you change the delay? Not lengthen, but shorten it?

Colin


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:45 PM
Subject: General ...Re: Negative inductance (fwd)


> 
> Subject: Re: Negative inductance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the topic of Negative Inductance:
> 
> This is one of my favorite-of-all-time aspects of
> 
> THE
> Applied Sciences of Experimentalist Physics
> 
> OK:
> If you examine an inductor electrically it has some attributes, or
> how it behaves.  
>    A) As a VERY loose and General description of these...
> 
> 1) an Inductor tends to impede the flow of AC ... or impedes
> changes in an electric current and it exhibits no or low attenuation of
> DC. 
> L is the symbol for inductance. 
> 
>    B) Resistor ...attenuates AC and DC and anything else with 
> the same  "Vigah" to use the words of the late or passed
> over President John Fitzgerald Kennedy
> 
> R is the symbol of Resistance
> 
>    C) Capacitor is Sort Of the opposite of L in its Loose and
> VERY
>   General  properties: 
>   it impedes DC... and AC passes  through with little or
> no Attenuation
> 
>         C is the symbol for Capacitance
> 
> NOW: .... I bring you with to where we are in the
> Electronic Signal Processing domain and we say L,R,C.
> 
> We have these great tools we call Active electronic elements,
> including but not limited to: 
> 
> Vacuum tubes
> Transistors
> Diodes
> 
> And a BUNCH of other more specialized devices .... some employ
> condensed matter, or solid state physics, some employ Plasma, some employ
> OTHER methods .... diacs...magnetic amplifiers ... dielectric amplifiers
> ... and on and on....
> 
> Well.....
> 
> I can use these active elements and build circuits to do all kinds
> of things.... and ONE of the things I can do is to manufacture Artificial
> Electronic Elements or to abbreviate this, AEE.
> Some of these AEE may include, and are by NO means limited to
> ...and only imagination is the limiting factor
> 
> "Perfect" or ideal diodes with no forward voltage drop
> Amplifiers with NO offset
> Power Optical Transistors
> OR
> I can build circuits or devices which exhibit 
> Properties of Physics or Mathmatics ... such as
> logarithm function amplifier or anti-log amp ...
> 
> AND..... the part that started this:  
> 
> When I was learning about some of he more out-of-the-way signal
> processing stuff it struck me one day that... in the purely electronic
> domain that .... I can build a capacitor!  Or an L R or C element
> and such an element can be infinitely variable in its adjustability,
> within, of course, the qualities, properties and Capabilities of the
> Active and Passive circuit components used to make the artificial L R or
> C.....
> AND..... the LRC can be positive OR negative !!!
> 
> J
> POST SCRIPTS: 
> 
> It is possible to built Negative L or other system parts that do
> all kinds of things .....
> 
> As example:
> 
> In some sensor tasks the cable which is often a coaxial cable,
> which carries a signal from a remote transducer exhibits capacitance and
> the capacitance reduces or attenuates the higher frequency components
> of the signals of interest.
> 
> By using an adjustable negative C or Negative Capacitance circuit
> a designer
> can actually "dial out" the effect of the capacitance of the cable.. and
> you can see this right on the spot. 
> If you use a square wave signal source with an impedance about the
> same as the actual transducer and watch the rounded corners of the trace
> on an oscilloscope you can see the effect of the cable capacitance.
> You can then connect the negative C circuit and watch the image of
> the time history of the square wave signal being attenuated and in real
> time you can adjust the degree of Neg C until the square wave's corners
> are nicely sharp again.
> 
> This is really enjoyable to me to have seen it the first time,
> almost as though a magic djinni fixed things up
> 
> J
> 
> 


---
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 17 00:23:38 2001
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>attitudes -- that might eventually stagnate or be forgotten. A 
>hundred generations from now, we assume people will still know as 
>much as we do, plus a great deal more, and they will still allow 
>free enquiry.

I don't have the slightest doubt that independent inventors will 
continue to move technology ahead reguardless of what the scientific 
establishment does.

>
>When the Egyptian Pharaohs ruled, there was a large ministry assigned to a

That kind of ossified thinking is present today in the major 
universities were the dullest of the Ph D's are given teaching 
positions. I have great confidence that when an inventor (s) come 
forward with machines that work by utilizing quantum vacuum 
fluxiations that the scientific establishment will suddenly by put on 
notice and then theory will catch up with practice.

>strong and so beneficial that it is immune to stagnation and decay. 
>Julian Schwinger was not exaggerating or being an alarmist when he 
>said the oppression of cold fusion "will be the death of science."
>
>Schwinger understood, as Bacon did, that people can be barbaric, 
>great ideas can be lost, civilizations can go dreadfully astray for 
>generations. Science

IMHO, the dark ages were more the fault of the power that was running 
the world, the Roman Church.

>Muslim nations once led the world in natural science and 
>mathematics. We hope they will once again reclaim their traditions.

I find the collapse of the Classical Muslim civilization very 
interesting. PBS did an interesting show on the Wahabi sect of Islam. 
These are the hard nut fundamentalists who have been causing all the 
trouble by supporting mosques that indroctrenate young men in the 
radical fundamentalist variety of Islam that has caused all the 
problems.

>I hope that we do not allow our own version of the Taliban, the 
>publishers and the APS, to strangle these traditions in the 
>meanwhile.
>
>- Jed
I was just thinking about Robert Parks quote, "I don't care about 
your isotopic ratios," when he didn't like the conclusions of some 
researchers.



-- 

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thomas malloy wrote:

>I was just thinking about Robert Parks quote, "I don't care about your 
>isotopic ratios," when he didn't like the conclusions of some researchers.

His name is Robert Park. I do not know why people keep mistaking it as 
"Parks." His column "What's New" is often published here by Akira Kawasaki. 
(Some people call it "What's New That I Hate.")

When did he say "I don't care about your isotopic ratios"? It sounds typical.

- Jed

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Colin Quinney <crquin home.com>
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Subject: Re: General ...Re: Negative inductance :: Cable Delay
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	DEAR Colin,

	I am not sure what delay you are speaking of but if you mean the
signal delay resulting from the capacitance of a coaxial cable... ye, this
can be shortened.

	If there is some other delay issue ..... bring it on, and let me
see if I know anything about it or have worked with it.

	The realm of signals, processing, noise and their alteration has
occupied my for 20 years and for over a decade I fielded issues in this
domain for USAF and NASA-USAF cooperations.
	It is always a joy and interesting in its challenge.



	I have worked with several methods to arrive at cable methods
which allow more rapid information transmission.  

	This is not a one single method.  The methods may include but are
not limited to changing the nature of, modifying or other alteration[s]:

	a]	method of transmission
	b]	method of reception
	c]	  change properties of cable
	d]	  change method of making cable
	e]	processing the cable itself
	f]	  combinations of the above
	g]	other not well known methods
	h]	other proprietary methods.


	Anyone interested in this commercially contact off line, please.


				J
	


On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Colin Quinney wrote:

> John,
> 
> Can you change the delay? Not lengthen, but shorten it?
> 
> Colin
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
> To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:45 PM
> Subject: General ...Re: Negative inductance (fwd)
> 
> 
> > 
> > Subject: Re: Negative inductance
> > 
> > On the topic of Negative Inductance:
> > 
> > This is one of my favorite-of-all-time aspects of
> > 
> > THE
> > Applied Sciences of Experimentalist Physics
> > 
> > OK:
> > If you examine an inductor electrically it has some attributes, or
> > how it behaves.  

> >    A) As a VERY loose and General description of these...
> > 
> > 1) an Inductor tends to impede the flow of AC ... or impedes
> > changes in an electric current and it exhibits no or low attenuation of
> > DC. 
> > L is the symbol for inductance. 
> > 
> >    B) Resistor ...attenuates AC and DC and anything else with 
> > the same  "Vigah" to use the words of the late or passed
> > over President John Fitzgerald Kennedy
> > 
> > R is the symbol of Resistance
> > 
> >    C) Capacitor is Sort Of the opposite of L in its Loose and
> > VERY
> >   General  properties: 
> >   it impedes DC... and AC passes  through with little or
> > no Attenuation
> > 
> >         C is the symbol for Capacitance
> > 
> > NOW: .... I bring you with to where we are in the
> > Electronic Signal Processing domain and we say L,R,C.
> > 
> > We have these great tools we call Active electronic elements,
> > including but not limited to: 
> > 
> > Vacuum tubes
> > Transistors
> > Diodes
> > 
> > And a BUNCH of other more specialized devices .... some employ
> > condensed matter, or solid state physics, some employ Plasma, some employ
> > OTHER methods .... diacs...magnetic amplifiers ... dielectric amplifiers
> > ... and on and on....
> > 
> > Well.....
> > 
> > I can use these active elements and build circuits to do all kinds
> > of things.... and ONE of the things I can do is to manufacture Artificial
> > Electronic Elements or to abbreviate this, AEE.
> > Some of these AEE may include, and are by NO means limited to
> > ...and only imagination is the limiting factor
> > 
> > "Perfect" or ideal diodes with no forward voltage drop
> > Amplifiers with NO offset
> > Power Optical Transistors
> > OR
> > I can build circuits or devices which exhibit 
> > Properties of Physics or Mathmatics ... such as
> > logarithm function amplifier or anti-log amp ...
> > 
> > AND..... the part that started this:  
> > 
> > When I was learning about some of he more out-of-the-way signal
> > processing stuff it struck me one day that... in the purely electronic
> > domain that .... I can build a capacitor!  Or an L R or C element
> > and such an element can be infinitely variable in its adjustability,
> > within, of course, the qualities, properties and Capabilities of the
> > Active and Passive circuit components used to make the artificial L R or
> > C.....
> > AND..... the LRC can be positive OR negative !!!
> > 
> > J
> > POST SCRIPTS: 
> > 
> > It is possible to built Negative L or other system parts that do
> > all kinds of things .....
> > 
> > As example:
> > 
> > In some sensor tasks the cable which is often a coaxial cable,
> > which carries a signal from a remote transducer exhibits capacitance and
> > the capacitance reduces or attenuates the higher frequency components
> > of the signals of interest.
> > 
> > By using an adjustable negative C or Negative Capacitance circuit
> > a designer
> > can actually "dial out" the effect of the capacitance of the cable.. and
> > you can see this right on the spot. 

> > If you use a square wave signal source with an impedance about the
> > same as the actual transducer and watch the rounded corners of the trace
> > on an oscilloscope you can see the effect of the cable capacitance.
> > You can then connect the negative C circuit and watch the image of
> > the time history of the square wave signal being attenuated and in real
> > time you can adjust the degree of Neg C until the square wave's corners
> > are nicely sharp again.
> > 
> > This is really enjoyable to me to have seen it the first time,
> > almost as though a magic djinni fixed things up
> > 
> > J
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.295 / Virus Database: 159 - Release Date: 11/1/2001
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 17 14:49:00 2001
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Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 14:45:56 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortexC-L eskimo.com
Subject: English: Grebennikov's insect-structure Torsion article
In-Reply-To: <003c01c1607f$856fe320$541552c3 sah>
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Slavek Krepelka posted an English translation of the Russian-language
chapter 5 of Grebennikov's book about insect-microstructure torsion
experiments.  I merged this back into the original diagrams on the website
of Ju. N.  Cherednichenko.  Take a look at: 

   THE NATURAL PHENOMENA OF ANTI GRAVITATION AND INVISIBILITY IN INSECTS
   AND THE GREBENNIKOV CAVITY STRUCTURES EFFECT  (ENGLISH)
   http://www.amasci.com/greb/greb2.html

Note well the diagram of a simple motor w/angled spools of 35mm film, and
the part about parasitic wasp larvae which use an "inertial drive" effect! 
I wonder if the dizziness caused by my "brain sucker" device is NOT
acoustic after all (http://amasci.com/freenrg/audhole.html)  I wonder if
Mexican Jumping Beans available in the SW of the USA are using pulsed
antigravity?!!!  I remember that they *do not* give strong impulses to
your hand when they jump, yet they can jump significant distances.


Congratulations to Mr. Krepalka!  He spent $600 for translating, and
as he notes at the end of the article, donations can be sent to Jerry
Decker, jdecker keelynet.com

Also:  V.Grebennikov passed away this year.

Also:  babelfish.altavista.com now has a crude Russian/English
translation. (It does not like Grebennikov's single-hyphen pauses, but
doubled hyphens or hyphenated words are OK.)


The English text
http://www3.sympatico.ca/slavek.krepelka/greb.html

Original page
Ju. N. Cherednichenko
http://www.sinor.ru/~che/
che online.sinor.ru
http://www.sinor.ru/~che/grebennikov.htm


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 17 15:54:57 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: English: Grebennikov's insect-structure Torsion article
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 19:00:02 -0500
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Hi Bill.

Interesting stuff, I always wondered about the site and
the pictures. 

The part about being invisible reminded me of that superhero who had
the power of invisibility but it only worked when you
didn't look at him.

Below, the author seems to be mistaking pellet gun holes
in windows for some kind of exotic effect? Unless,
by god, someone's been operating such a device RIGHT
IN MY BACKYARD!

 It turns out that these holes resemble simmilar holes
 in windows plate glass. The latter sometimes appear in
 residential and office buildings, occasionally in "bursts"
 in the windows of several rooms and floors. A hole is 3-5 mm
 on the outside, widening in a cone to he inside, with exit
 diameter of 6-15 mm. Some holes are melted or colored brown
 on edges, just as it happened in the case of my insect
 in my test tube. It seems that this type of poltergeist
 isn't caused, as I used to believe, by short-lived
 microplasmoids of tiny ball lightning type,
 but by particles and specks carelessly dropped
 while testing a device similar to mine. 


-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 5:46 PM
To: vortexC-L eskimo.com
Subject: English: Grebennikov's insect-structure Torsion article



Slavek Krepelka posted an English translation of the Russian-language
chapter 5 of Grebennikov's book about insect-microstructure torsion
experiments.  I merged this back into the original diagrams on the website
of Ju. N.  Cherednichenko.  Take a look at: 

   THE NATURAL PHENOMENA OF ANTI GRAVITATION AND INVISIBILITY IN INSECTS
   AND THE GREBENNIKOV CAVITY STRUCTURES EFFECT  (ENGLISH)
   http://www.amasci.com/greb/greb2.html

Note well the diagram of a simple motor w/angled spools of 35mm film, and
the part about parasitic wasp larvae which use an "inertial drive" effect! 
I wonder if the dizziness caused by my "brain sucker" device is NOT
acoustic after all (http://amasci.com/freenrg/audhole.html)  I wonder if
Mexican Jumping Beans available in the SW of the USA are using pulsed
antigravity?!!!  I remember that they *do not* give strong impulses to
your hand when they jump, yet they can jump significant distances.


Congratulations to Mr. Krepalka!  He spent $600 for translating, and
as he notes at the end of the article, donations can be sent to Jerry
Decker, jdecker keelynet.com

Also:  V.Grebennikov passed away this year.

Also:  babelfish.altavista.com now has a crude Russian/English
translation. (It does not like Grebennikov's single-hyphen pauses, but
doubled hyphens or hyphenated words are OK.)


The English text
http://www3.sympatico.ca/slavek.krepelka/greb.html

Original page
Ju. N. Cherednichenko
http://www.sinor.ru/~che/
che online.sinor.ru
http://www.sinor.ru/~che/grebennikov.htm


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 17 18:04:35 2001
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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011117161037.20665H-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: General ...Re: Negative inductance :: Cable Delay
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J,

I was thinking of digital cable, used in digital cable television studios.
The square wave pulses would roll off after travelling only a few dozens of
feet. The expense of then reprocessing the signal through literally hundreds
of miles of digital cable, and the digital delays that this introduced,
caused extreme expense in a network TV broadcasting center. Digital TV is
the future of broadcasting, so if you know how to cut those costs..

Colin

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: General ...Re: Negative inductance :: Cable Delay


>
>
> DEAR Colin,
>
> I am not sure what delay you are speaking of but if you mean the
> signal delay resulting from the capacitance of a coaxial cable... ye, this
> can be shortened.
>
> If there is some other delay issue ..... bring it on, and let me
> see if I know anything about it or have worked with it.
>
> The realm of signals, processing, noise and their alteration has
> occupied my for 20 years and for over a decade I fielded issues in this
> domain for USAF and NASA-USAF cooperations.
> It is always a joy and interesting in its challenge.
>
>
>
> I have worked with several methods to arrive at cable methods
> which allow more rapid information transmission.
>
> This is not a one single method.  The methods may include but are
> not limited to changing the nature of, modifying or other alteration[s]:
>
> a] method of transmission
> b] method of reception
> c]   change properties of cable
> d]   change method of making cable
> e] processing the cable itself
> f]   combinations of the above
> g] other not well known methods
> h] other proprietary methods.
>
>
> Anyone interested in this commercially contact off line, please.
>
>
> J
>
>
>
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Colin Quinney wrote:
>
> > John,
> >
> > Can you change the delay? Not lengthen, but shorten it?
> >
> > Colin
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
> > To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:45 PM
> > Subject: General ...Re: Negative inductance (fwd)
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: Negative inductance
> > >
> > > On the topic of Negative Inductance:
> > >
> > > This is one of my favorite-of-all-time aspects of
> > >
> > > THE
> > > Applied Sciences of Experimentalist Physics
> > >
> > > OK:
> > > If you examine an inductor electrically it has some attributes, or
> > > how it behaves.
>
> > >    A) As a VERY loose and General description of these...
> > >
> > > 1) an Inductor tends to impede the flow of AC ... or impedes
> > > changes in an electric current and it exhibits no or low attenuation
of
> > > DC.
> > > L is the symbol for inductance.
> > >
> > >    B) Resistor ...attenuates AC and DC and anything else with
> > > the same  "Vigah" to use the words of the late or passed
> > > over President John Fitzgerald Kennedy
> > >
> > > R is the symbol of Resistance
> > >
> > >    C) Capacitor is Sort Of the opposite of L in its Loose and
> > > VERY
> > >   General  properties:
> > >   it impedes DC... and AC passes  through with little or
> > > no Attenuation
> > >
> > >         C is the symbol for Capacitance
> > >
> > > NOW: .... I bring you with to where we are in the
> > > Electronic Signal Processing domain and we say L,R,C.
> > >
> > > We have these great tools we call Active electronic elements,
> > > including but not limited to:
> > >
> > > Vacuum tubes
> > > Transistors
> > > Diodes
> > >
> > > And a BUNCH of other more specialized devices .... some employ
> > > condensed matter, or solid state physics, some employ Plasma, some
employ
> > > OTHER methods .... diacs...magnetic amplifiers ... dielectric
amplifiers
> > > ... and on and on....
> > >
> > > Well.....
> > >
> > > I can use these active elements and build circuits to do all kinds
> > > of things.... and ONE of the things I can do is to manufacture
Artificial
> > > Electronic Elements or to abbreviate this, AEE.
> > > Some of these AEE may include, and are by NO means limited to
> > > ...and only imagination is the limiting factor
> > >
> > > "Perfect" or ideal diodes with no forward voltage drop
> > > Amplifiers with NO offset
> > > Power Optical Transistors
> > > OR
> > > I can build circuits or devices which exhibit
> > > Properties of Physics or Mathmatics ... such as
> > > logarithm function amplifier or anti-log amp ...
> > >
> > > AND..... the part that started this:
> > >
> > > When I was learning about some of he more out-of-the-way signal
> > > processing stuff it struck me one day that... in the purely electronic
> > > domain that .... I can build a capacitor!  Or an L R or C element
> > > and such an element can be infinitely variable in its adjustability,
> > > within, of course, the qualities, properties and Capabilities of the
> > > Active and Passive circuit components used to make the artificial L R
or
> > > C.....
> > > AND..... the LRC can be positive OR negative !!!
> > >
> > > J
> > > POST SCRIPTS:
> > >
> > > It is possible to built Negative L or other system parts that do
> > > all kinds of things .....
> > >
> > > As example:
> > >
> > > In some sensor tasks the cable which is often a coaxial cable,
> > > which carries a signal from a remote transducer exhibits capacitance
and
> > > the capacitance reduces or attenuates the higher frequency components
> > > of the signals of interest.
> > >
> > > By using an adjustable negative C or Negative Capacitance circuit
> > > a designer
> > > can actually "dial out" the effect of the capacitance of the cable..
and
> > > you can see this right on the spot.
>
> > > If you use a square wave signal source with an impedance about the
> > > same as the actual transducer and watch the rounded corners of the
trace
> > > on an oscilloscope you can see the effect of the cable capacitance.
> > > You can then connect the negative C circuit and watch the image of
> > > the time history of the square wave signal being attenuated and in
real
> > > time you can adjust the degree of Neg C until the square wave's
corners
> > > are nicely sharp again.
> > >
> > > This is really enjoyable to me to have seen it the first time,
> > > almost as though a magic djinni fixed things up
> > >
> > > J
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.295 / Virus Database: 159 - Release Date: 11/1/2001
> >
>


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 18 03:07:38 2001
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Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 05:05:28 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
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>thomas malloy wrote:
>
>>I was just thinking about Robert Parks quote, "I don't care about 
>>your isotopic ratios," when he didn't like the conclusions of some 
>>researchers.
>
>His name is Robert Park. I do not know why people keep mistaking it 
>as "Parks." His column "What's New" is often published here by Akira 
>Kawasaki. (Some people call it "What's New That I Hate.")
>
>When did he say "I don't care about your isotopic ratios"? It sounds typical.
>
>- Jed
Hum, I like the name Parks, it's a subtle form of disrespect to 
deliberately mispronounce someone's name, and I feel quite 
disrespectful towards Park. Someone was presenting a percentage of 
various isotopes as proof of a LENR which Parks doesn't want to 
acknowledge is happening. Screw him, maybe another tree will fall on 
him. OTOH, The hiring of relative dullards to teach physics is a lot 
more insidious. Oh well, technology will advance, and the truth will 
out!

On wards brothers! the quest continues.

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 18 09:54:47 2001
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Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 19:48:56 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Human history is about constituting order over communities. This is somehow required because humankind has no natural order except family relation. There are several ways to constitute ordering (keep in order) system. You can keep order by force. Then wri

te laws and rules to apply. This is monarchy, then after you can write laws that giving right to write laws to community which are under order that laws. For short it is democracy.

But if don't have any force initially to keep the order, still you can write laws an describe and ordering system but there would be no reason that a community leave their current ordering system and switch to new one.

But there is a way. The belief. Humankind is used to be to believe to supernatural entities.  If you convince them you are the agent of the ultimate supernatural entity, the Ultra Supreme Being (USB), and constitute a philosophy reflecting universal order

 of USB, there is a way people believe to you and choose your philosophy.

A quick way to constitute such a philosophy and keep the things simple is to centralize everything around USB. As the philosophy is centralized, the ordering system could be also centralized. USB is the ultimate power. He is capable to do everything, crea

te and annihilate. Everything is belonging to him. USB is not responsible for anything but everything and everybody is responsible to USB. Power of USB is limited in time and space.  Actually this is a philosophy of ultimate virtual empire. USB is also un

ique it is EXCLUSIVE. No other virtual empire could be. All claimed ones are false. No other empire can deal with USB Empire.

Centralization in all means, centralization of power, uniqueness and exclusivity is the core of philosophy. This look like the equivalence principle of General Relativity. The theory is build by this simple principle. A spiritual theory like this can be b

uild similarly.

Once the core of the philosophy is constituted, remaining is explaining the World by this philosophy, similar to a physics theory. This is, sometime easy, straightforward, sometime difficulties be encountered. Such difficulties can be overcome by introduc

ing some other spiritual beings, good and bad, just as some physics theories does. When they stuck somewhere, they introduce new forces, new dimensions and new virtual particles. Of course, one should be very wise to keep the theory in harmony and not int

roducing to much patches. These spiritual entities are acting individuals trough its mind or to their souls. Soul is very important concept, already recognized most of cultures, and mixing real things with hypothetical entities help to blur the conception

 of the reality. So such a complication help to introductions of belief systems to communities.

Still there remain several difficulties which not be overcome by any logic. For example if everything is strictly under order of USB, how it appears almost everything out of order? Now the real power of the philosophy enters the scene. If native logic is 

not able solve the problem, change the logic. So illogical become logical. Remove the cause-effect relation. Introduce infinities (i.e. "renormalization" in physics), or state that we should not ask. After all we are very limited comprehension capabilitie

s beings that USB created by causes which our philosophy will invent it further. Even we don't need to understand things, as everything is well arranged by USB (this remind me MS). Most important, we are not FREE beings to our own. We are belonging to USB

. We should obey rules of USB when reasoning. 

Now our mind is tied by this philosophy and by such logic. No way to break it. Our way of thinking is replaced by a program, we are owned (as hacker saying). Our perception of reality is changed. We still think everything is logical in the when we look fr

om the frame of this philosophy.

The purpose of the science is not understanding things but to proof that we can not understand them. Why? Because wisdom of USB is not subject to understanding. We should not try to do things USB does.

Second step is constituting the rules. These rules could be direct orders of USB (coming via special channel to the agent) or we do try reflecting USB orders. On making the rules we use our altered logic.

These rules are about ethics, moral, preying, reconditioning our mind, refreshing it with the philosophy often to prevent the possibility of our native mind and logic come back and what we should do in real life and what we should not.

Now everything is ready to make the virtual empire real. Only we need virtual punishing and rewarding mechanism to force people follow orders. This is hell and heaven. So everything is done in human mind, in theory, no exterior law enforcement is needed. 

But in practice these law enforcements are necessity. So we organize and build instruments to do it. 

The acceptance step of the philosophy by people have nothing special.Standard practice including promises, threats, fear, awards, brute force, all kind of propaganda, social engineering  can be used for this purpose. People also like power. This philosoph

y based on the on the infinite and supreme power. To be slave under a supreme power does not hurt people, because audiance would not be a community having much of freedom already and probably suffering from many causes.  

Once our virtual empire become real, we should to extend the empire, because USB rules should be obeyed everywhere, it is exclusive. If there is something appears not ruled by order of USB laws this is an offense to USB and our philosophy. Therefore we sh

ould ensure on every place in the world and the universe rules of USB be obeyed. 

In the real situation the world is ruled by different systems. There are other religions; there are kingdoms, other empires, democracies, legal systems, capitalism, and communisms. But from point of view of our philosophy they are wrong and worthless. Leg

al systems not belonging our philosophy, human rights have no value, not respectable and even not recognized.  Basically our philosophy states that we have no right as a beings at all, we are slaves of USB. Our lives are given by him and only be taken by 

him. The only authority is USB and we only responsible to him.

Now we have a doctrine not only comprised of a philosophy, a belief system and ethics but an executive, ruling system. This system need be exclusive everywhere, in the world and the universe, eternally. 

Fate also play very important role in our philosophy.  As it is assumed  essentially that  there is no cause-effect relation exist in nature. Everything is determined by fate or by orders of USB. We have limited responsibility for our actions because what

 we do is basically determined by fate. Fate cannot be overcome.  What will be happen in future is written in fate. It cannot be changed.  So if something bad happened to you or to someone else by a heuristic event, this is the fate, don't try to save you

rself or him/her. Let it die.
Even if you save them, they will die soon by another occasion.

Our philosophy denies evolution of species. This is because every species had created by USB one by one. Only USB have right of create, so species can not allowed mutate by their own, in order to produce other species.

Our philosophy is also anthropocentric as many other belief systems. This is a kind of "social engineering" (hacker term) rewarding believers by eternal existence of their kinds, exclusively. All other species have only one reason to exist: to show the po

wer of USB, and to serve people. Some of these are camels, horses and mules, goats, wheat, fishes, ducks, chickens and maybe some singing birds.  Our philosophy deny us to abuse others and species, of course without a reason. Of course there is only one r

eason for in our life, it is serve to USB.
 
Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 18 12:35:54 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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	I am, please looking for a vendor or vendors of new and
reconditioned 10 to 50  liter 
 
	DEWAR FLASK FOR STORING AND SHIPPING CRYOGENIC GASSES

	
			PLEASE


				John Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 18 18:36:28 2001
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November 19, 2001

John,

I am surprised that you have not received some kind of response by now.
So I looked up Cole Palmer's catalog and they have them at the
capacitities you are looking for. The 50 liter costs about one thou--.
Talk to their customer servfice for your needs. From what I can see,
they have 'em --- for shipping also.

heir phone number: 800 323-4340 in Illinoois. Get their free catalog
(thick!).
Good luck!

-AK-

John Schnurer wrote:

>         I am, please looking for a vendor or vendors of new and
> reconditioned 10 to 50  liter
>
>         DEWAR FLASK FOR STORING AND SHIPPING CRYOGENIC GASSES
>
>
>                         PLEASE
>
>                                 John Schnurer


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 18 19:25:23 2001
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On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Colin Quinney wrote:

> J,
> 
> I was thinking of digital cable, used in digital cable television studios.
> The square wave pulses would roll off after travelling only a few dozens of
> feet. The expense of then reprocessing the signal through literally hundreds
> of miles of digital cable, and the digital delays that this introduced,
> caused extreme expense in a network TV broadcasting center. Digital TV is
> the future of broadcasting, so if you know how to cut those costs..
> 
> Colin

That sounds like an IRAD project I was prime on when I worked in research
at McDonnell Douglas 15 years ago. You didn't have these problems with
analog devices.

You need better cable. ;-D Or you can send your signal as a multiple bit
wide FM/PM signal, each bit on it's own carrier frequency. There were a
few other tricks to get around it too, like single mode fiber optics, or
chromatic multiplexing. 





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	Dear AK,


	An associate of mine is going to foot the bill and 1,000 id out of
the range.....
	This is why I am looking for RECONDITIONED .....I know there are
vendors, I do not own a browser based E mail and must borrow time on a
machine that does, so it is not a snap for me to search.


	I cannot remember the name of the vendor, but there is at least
one that takes the Dewar's that are zongo .... and re welds, if needed....
and puts new super insulation, if needed, ... pumps them down again, and
they may have a paint or other visual flaw... but they are serviceable.

	Thanks....

	And the companies like Cole-P and Fisher etc.... almost always are
way up there in costs....  I don't even want to say price..... I want to
say Cost!  :)

		Very Thankful


				John


On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, Akira Kawasaki wrote:

> November 19, 2001
> 
> John,
> 
> I am surprised that you have not received some kind of response by now.
> So I looked up Cole Palmer's catalog and they have them at the
> capacitities you are looking for. The 50 liter costs about one thou--.
> Talk to their customer servfice for your needs. From what I can see,
> they have 'em --- for shipping also.
> 

	WAY too high



> heir phone number: 800 323-4340 in Illinoois. Get their free catalog
> (thick!).
> Good luck!
> 
> -AK-
> 
> John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> >         I am, please looking for a vendor or vendors of new and
> > reconditioned 10 to 50  liter
> >
> >         DEWAR FLASK FOR STORING AND SHIPPING CRYOGENIC GASSES
> >
> >
> >                         PLEASE
> >
> >                                 John Schnurer
> 
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 18 23:50:54 2001
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How much money do you want to spend.
More liters better?
How many flasks do you want?

John Schnurer wrote:

>         I am, please looking for a vendor or vendors of new and
> reconditioned 10 to 50  liter
>
>         DEWAR FLASK FOR STORING AND SHIPPING CRYOGENIC GASSES
>
>
>                         PLEASE
>
>                                 John Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 19 08:06:31 2001
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Subject: Re: Magnetic Carbon.
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I posted the following letter some time ago. Ed Storms, are you still 
reading these posts? I would like your opinion on this.

Have you read the article which announced this discovery? There are 
simple chemical tests for Fe, particularly when the only thing you 
have to separate is C .

On further reflection, I through C has a weight of 12, now 12 times 5 
is 60. Fe60 decays with B capture with .14 MeV. What is that? a Gamma 
particle? B capture would reduce the number of protons, which would 
change the element to Mn. Would that be Mn59? There is no such 
isotope. My understanding was that Fe57 resulted. If this is the 
case, then an isotopic spectrum would be very interesting because 
Fe57, and Fe58 are both rare, I call them 2%ers for less than 2% of 
the normal isotopic spectrum, well Fe57 is just over 2%, but that is 
still rare.

Since I'm sure that Ed Storms will weigh in on this thread, I want to 
mention a French patent, Meyer-Mace which involved the production of 
energy by the use of Fe57. I attempted to find out more about it, but 
the patent search engine that I tried didn't have any information on 
it. Since I don't know of any other search engine, other then 
Delphion, and since the document would have to be digitalized inorder 
to run it though Babelfish, I haven't done anymore with it.

>Wow. You read my mind. I was thinking the same thing when I saw that
>article. But didn't someone do a spectral analysis on the carbon powders
>and determine other materials were present?
>
>If not, then perhaps a simple arcing in carbon powder actually does
>create buckball materials. That would be a very cheap and dirty way to
>make buckyball organic magnets.
>
>Keith Nagel wrote:
>>
>>  Hi.
>>
>>  I remember discussion concerning the carbon-iron transmutation
>>  experiments centered around the magnetic properties of
>>  the resulting "iron" as proof. Someone must have suggested
>>  the possibility of magnetic carbon, but if not here's an
>>  interesting link.
>>
>>  http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991443
>>
>>  K.


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 19 09:23:38 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Off topic ? - ultimate virtual empire
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At 7:48 PM 11/18/1, hamdi ucar wrote:
[snip]
> ... it is assumed  essentially that  there is no cause-effect relation
>exist in nature. Everything is determined by fate or by orders of USB. We
>have limited responsibility for our actions because what we do is
>basically determined by fate. Fate cannot be overcome.
[snip]

Because conditions anywhere necessarily change over time, sometimes
quickly, any species operating by a set of rules that are not always
adaptable sufficiently fast to survive is doomed to extinction.  Built in
adaptability is therefore a required feature of any set of governmental
rules expected to preserve a species long term.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 19 09:49:32 2001
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Organization: .
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hamdi ucar wrote:
> 
> Human history is about constituting order over communities. 

I am presently studying the history of the Roman Church from 312
CE to about 1310 CE and your treatise reminds me much of the
philosophy of Constantine (and his mother) and the church Rome
established.  It is, however, necessary to eliminate those who
are not "of the USB" for the system to work.

The dark ages weren't really dark, the Roman Church extinguished
the light.  See "Massacre at Montsegur", Zoe Oldenbourg, ISBN:
1842124285.

Regards,

Terry

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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi Horace,

You are right, and we should hope they should extinct fast enough if there are communities belong such a philosophy. But this philosophy is essentially against to changes and instruct to fight to conserve conditions. Although, extinction is inevitable, th

is prolong their existence. Actually, we see historically and presently, many conservative communities succeed on resisting global changes, by rejecting technologies, new ideas, by isolating themselves against to changing world. This is sometime good over

all because they save they cultures and increase the global diversity. Obviously, the philosophy that I suggested have no benefit for humanity, they could even not produce a culture, can not produce art. These activities require unlocked minds. 

Assuming (,after Sep. 11) there are followers of such a philosophy in the world, I fear there may be communities belong similar philosophies all around the universe. This remind me Star Wars. These would be cosmological scale diseases. It would be very un

fortunate for humankind to encounter such a disease before evolving a bit more.

BTW, I could not able to relate the quotation to you wrote.


Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 7:48 PM 11/18/1, hamdi ucar wrote:
> [snip]
> > ... it is assumed  essentially that  there is no cause-effect relation
> >exist in nature. Everything is determined by fate or by orders of USB. We
> >have limited responsibility for our actions because what we do is
> >basically determined by fate. Fate cannot be overcome.
> [snip]
> 
> Because conditions anywhere necessarily change over time, sometimes
> quickly, any species operating by a set of rules that are not always
> adaptable sufficiently fast to survive is doomed to extinction.  Built in
> adaptability is therefore a required feature of any set of governmental
> rules expected to preserve a species long term.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner


Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 19 12:11:28 2001
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thomas malloy wrote:

> I posted the following letter some time ago. Ed Storms, are you still
> reading these posts? I would like your opinion on this.

Since you asked, here it is.  If I understand, you are proposing that five
carbon atoms combine to form an atom of Fe.  It is hard enough to justify or
understand how one nuclei can interact with another under such conditions,
let alone 5.  So you make Fe60 which would decay to Co60 by beta emission
(not k-capture) in 1.510^6 years.  Co60 is highly active and would be easy
to detect by its radiation.  I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

While the detection of Fe using a carbon arc is most easily done using a
magnet, people have also analyzed for iron.  see: Sundaresan, R.
Bockris, J. O'M. Fusion Technol. 26, 261 (1994).

>
>
> Have you read the article which announced this discovery? There are
> simple chemical tests for Fe, particularly when the only thing you
> have to separate is C .
>
> On further reflection, I through C has a weight of 12, now 12 times 5
> is 60. Fe60 decays with B capture with .14 MeV. What is that? a Gamma
> particle? B capture would reduce the number of protons, which would
> change the element to Mn. Would that be Mn59? There is no such
> isotope. My understanding was that Fe57 resulted. If this is the
> case, then an isotopic spectrum would be very interesting because
> Fe57, and Fe58 are both rare, I call them 2%ers for less than 2% of
> the normal isotopic spectrum, well Fe57 is just over 2%, but that is
> still rare.
>
> Since I'm sure that Ed Storms will weigh in on this thread, I want to
> mention a French patent, Meyer-Mace which involved the production of
> energy by the use of Fe57. I attempted to find out more about it, but
> the patent search engine that I tried didn't have any information on
> it. Since I don't know of any other search engine, other then
> Delphion, and since the document would have to be digitalized inorder
> to run it though Babelfish, I haven't done anymore with it.
>
> >Wow. You read my mind. I was thinking the same thing when I saw that
> >article. But didn't someone do a spectral analysis on the carbon powders
> >and determine other materials were present?
> >
> >If not, then perhaps a simple arcing in carbon powder actually does
> >create buckball materials. That would be a very cheap and dirty way to
> >make buckyball organic magnets.
> >
> >Keith Nagel wrote:
> >>
> >>  Hi.
> >>
> >>  I remember discussion concerning the carbon-iron transmutation
> >>  experiments centered around the magnetic properties of
> >>  the resulting "iron" as proof. Someone must have suggested
> >>  the possibility of magnetic carbon, but if not here's an
> >>  interesting link.
> >>
> >>  http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991443
> >>
> >>  K.
>
> --

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 19 12:36:17 2001
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: Need Vendor  reconditioned lab equipment Dewar Cryogenic Please
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John Schnurer wrote:
Looking for a dewar 10 to 25 liters for storage and transport.

Hi John,
There appear to be several available on ebay
in the lab equipment section.
There is a Linde/Union Carbide, Type LR-17,
17 liter unit at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1662182502
with a current $50 bid price.

Regards,
George Holz             george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Magnetic Carbon.
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:03:13 -0600:
[snip]
>On further reflection, I through C has a weight of 12, now 12 times 5 
>is 60. Fe60 decays with B capture with .14 MeV. What is that? a Gamma 
>particle? B capture would reduce the number of protons, which would 
>change the element to Mn. 
[snip]
AFAIK, the Fe60 decays by emitting an electron, which turns it into
Co60. Fe57 is a complete nonsense, indicating that those who wrote the
patent either didn't have a clue, or were being deliberately misleading.
The Co60 is in an excited state, and decays (in first instance) by
emitting a gamma ray. However Co60 is itself radioactive, and therefore
will eventually decay further to Ni60.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 19 14:19:44 2001
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Subject: RE: Magnetic Carbon.
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Hi Ed.

Ed Storms Writes:
>While the detection of Fe using a carbon arc is most easily done using a
>magnet, people have also analyzed for iron.  see: Sundaresan, R.
>Bockris, J. O'M. Fusion Technol. 26, 261 (1994).

OK, I'm looking at it now. I'm also looking at Fusion Technol. 26, 266
(1994)
which claims that the isotopic ratio's were those of natural iron.
What's up with that, huh?

That it also only works in an oxidizing environment is also very
interesting, kind of not what you'd expect if simple impurity
concentration were at work.

On the other hand, the levels of iron produced seemed much lower
that what Oshawa was claiming, and I wonder if magnetic carbon
wasn't what was being seen by those early experimenters.

Perhaps one of the prerequisites for this kind of fusion process is
some strange configuration of carbon atoms, like an enzyme for metals...
????

K.


> >Keith Nagel wrote:
> >>
> >>  Hi.
> >>
> >>  I remember discussion concerning the carbon-iron transmutation
> >>  experiments centered around the magnetic properties of
> >>  the resulting "iron" as proof. Someone must have suggested
> >>  the possibility of magnetic carbon, but if not here's an
> >>  interesting link.
> >>
> >>  http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991443
> >>
> >>  K.
>
> --


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From: "Patrick Dowland" <patrick_dowland hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: New Aetherometry Publications (fwd)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:32:31 -0500
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Just received this announcement.  Looks like they added a bunch of
new stuff.

Patrick Dowland

*************************************************

Dear Friends and Colleagues,

AKRONOS Publishing is pleased to announce the publication on its
web page,

                    http://www.aetherometry.com

of the following new features:


-  In the Philosophy of Science monograph series:

    AS1-03 - "(Micro)Functionalist Thoughts on the Relation
             between Art, Science and Philosophy"

             http://www.aetherometry.com/abs-AS1.html#abstractAS1-03


-  In the Experimental Aetherometry monographs series, Volume 2:

    AS2-10 - "The kinetoregenerative phenomenon and the AToS model
             of a fundamental aether energy element capable of
             counteracting gravitons"

             http://www.aetherometry.com/abs-AS2v2.html#abstractAS2-10

    AS2-11 - "A light-irreducible split-aether continuum encompassing
             production of black (HFOT) and thermal (LFOT) photons"

             http://www.aetherometry.com/abs-AS2v2.html#abstractAS2-11

    AS2-12 - "AToS theory of the volt and the electron volt - an 
aetherometric
              perspective on longitudinal electric waves"

             http://www.aetherometry.com/abs-AS2v2.html#abstractAS2-12


-  "COMBAT AGAINST (AN)ORGONOMY":


   1.  "Expose of the secret and not-so-secret misery of (An)orgonomy and
        Reichianism, considered in all of its aspects -- spiritual, 
material,
        sexual, economic and political, and in particular scientific"

         http://www.aetherometry.com/expose.html

   2.  "To Be Done with (An)orgonomists:
        Conversations with (hopefully!) the last one:
        A complete response to J. DeMeo's attack on Aetherometry"

        http://www.aetherometry.com/demeo.html

   3.  "The debacle of the OML"

        http://www.aetherometry.com/oml_debacle.html



Yours,

Laura McFinlay,
Akronos Publishing



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 19 20:24:19 2001
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Subject: Re: Off topic ? - ultimate virtual empire
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Yes...  I bought Windows too :-)

And now I am subject of the "Ultimate Salesman Bill"

Very interesting though.  If you remove all of the pre-ordained thinking 
then you start over from "lost"

Maybe it is a good place to start.



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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At 8:42 PM 11/19/1, hamdi ucar wrote:
[snip]
>
>BTW, I could not able to relate the quotation to you wrote
[snip]

Below is a quote of your entire message.  Note the added "*******" that
sets off the portion quoted:

At 7:48 PM 11/18/1, hamdi ucar wrote:
>Human history is about constituting order over communities. This is
>somehow required because humankind has no natural order except family
>relation. There are several ways to constitute ordering (keep in order)
>system. You can keep order by force. Then write laws and rules to apply.
>This is monarchy, then after you can write laws that giving right to write
>laws to community which are under order that laws. For short it is
>democracy.
>
>But if don't have any force initially to keep the order, still you can
>write laws an describe and ordering system but there would be no reason
>that a community leave their current ordering system and switch to new
>one.
>
>But there is a way. The belief. Humankind is used to be to believe to
>supernatural entities.  If you convince them you are the agent of the
>ultimate supernatural entity, the Ultra Supreme Being (USB), and
>constitute a philosophy reflecting universal order of USB, there is a way
>people believe to you and choose your philosophy.
>
>A quick way to constitute such a philosophy and keep the things simple is
>to centralize everything around USB. As the philosophy is centralized, the
>ordering system could be also centralized. USB is the ultimate power. He
>is capable to do everything, create and annihilate. Everything is
>belonging to him. USB is not responsible for anything but everything and
>everybody is responsible to USB. Power of USB is limited in time and
>space.  Actually this is a philosophy of ultimate virtual empire. USB is
>also unique it is EXCLUSIVE. No other virtual empire could be. All claimed
>ones are false. No other empire can deal with USB Empire.
>
>Centralization in all means, centralization of power, uniqueness and
>exclusivity is the core of philosophy. This look like the equivalence
>principle of General Relativity. The theory is build by this simple
>principle. A spiritual theory like this can be build similarly.
>
>Once the core of the philosophy is constituted, remaining is explaining
>the World by this philosophy, similar to a physics theory. This is,
>sometime easy, straightforward, sometime difficulties be encountered. Such
>difficulties can be overcome by introducing some other spiritual beings,
>good and bad, just as some physics theories does. When they stuck
>somewhere, they introduce new forces, new dimensions and new virtual
>particles. Of course, one should be very wise to keep the theory in
>harmony and not introducing to much patches. These spiritual entities are
>acting individuals trough its mind or to their souls. Soul is very
>important concept, already recognized most of cultures, and mixing real
>things with hypothetical entities help to blur the conception of the
>reality. So such a complication help to introductions of belief systems to
>communities.
>
>Still there remain several difficulties which not be overcome by any
>logic. For example if everything is strictly under order of USB, how it
>appears almost everything out of order? Now the real power of the
>philosophy enters the scene. If native logic is not able solve the
>problem, change the logic. So illogical become logical. Remove the
>cause-effect relation. Introduce infinities (i.e. "renormalization" in
>physics), or state that we should not ask. After all we are very limited
>comprehension capabilities beings that USB created by causes which our
>philosophy will invent it further. Even we don't need to understand
>things, as everything is well arranged by USB (this remind me MS). Most
>important, we are not FREE beings to our own. We are belonging to USB. We
>should obey rules of USB when reasoning.
>
>Now our mind is tied by this philosophy and by such logic. No way to break
>it. Our way of thinking is replaced by a program, we are owned (as hacker
>saying). Our perception of reality is changed. We still think everything
>is logical in the when we look from the frame of this philosophy.
>
>The purpose of the science is not understanding things but to proof that
>we can not understand them. Why? Because wisdom of USB is not subject to
>understanding. We should not try to do things USB does.
>
>Second step is constituting the rules. These rules could be direct orders
>of USB (coming via special channel to the agent) or we do try reflecting
>USB orders. On making the rules we use our altered logic.
>
>These rules are about ethics, moral, preying, reconditioning our mind,
>refreshing it with the philosophy often to prevent the possibility of our
>native mind and logic come back and what we should do in real life and
>what we should not.
>
>Now everything is ready to make the virtual empire real. Only we need
>virtual punishing and rewarding mechanism to force people follow orders.
>This is hell and heaven. So everything is done in human mind, in theory,
>no exterior law enforcement is needed. But in practice these law
>enforcements are necessity. So we organize and build instruments to do it.
>
>
>The acceptance step of the philosophy by people have nothing
>special.Standard practice including promises, threats, fear, awards, brute
>force, all kind of propaganda, social engineering  can be used for this
>purpose. People also like power. This philosophy based on the on the
>infinite and supreme power. To be slave under a supreme power does not
>hurt people, because audiance would not be a community having much of
>freedom already and probably suffering from many causes.
>
>Once our virtual empire become real, we should to extend the empire,
>because USB rules should be obeyed everywhere, it is exclusive. If there
>is something appears not ruled by order of USB laws this is an offense to
>USB and our philosophy. Therefore we should ensure on every place in the
>world and the universe rules of USB be obeyed.
>
>In the real situation the world is ruled by different systems. There are
>other religions; there are kingdoms, other empires, democracies, legal
>systems, capitalism, and communisms. But from point of view of our
>philosophy they are wrong and worthless. Legal systems not belonging our
>philosophy, human rights have no value, not respectable and even not
>recognized.  Basically our philosophy states that we have no right as a
>beings at all, we are slaves of USB. Our lives are given by him and only
>be taken by him. The only authority is USB and we only responsible to him.
>
>Now we have a doctrine not only comprised of a philosophy, a belief system
>and ethics but an executive, ruling system. This system need be exclusive
>everywhere, in the world and the universe, eternally.
>
>Fate also play very important role in our philosophy.  As

*******

it is assumed  essentially that  there is no cause-effect relation exist in
nature. Everything is determined by fate or by orders of USB. We have
limited responsibility for our actions because what we do is basically
determined by fate. Fate cannot be overcome.

*******

What will be happen in future is written in fate. It cannot be changed.  So
if something bad happened to you or to someone else by a heuristic event,
this is the fate, don't try to save yourself or him/her. Let it die.
>Even if you save them, they will die soon by another occasion.
>
>Our philosophy denies evolution of species. This is because every species
>had created by USB one by one. Only USB have right of create, so species
>can not allowed mutate by their own, in order to produce other species.
>
>Our philosophy is also anthropocentric as many other belief systems. This
>is a kind of "social engineering" (hacker term) rewarding believers by
>eternal existence of their kinds, exclusively. All other species have only
>one reason to exist: to show the power of USB, and to serve people. Some
>of these are camels, horses and mules, goats, wheat, fishes, ducks,
>chickens and maybe some singing birds.  Our philosophy deny us to abuse
>others and species, of course without a reason. Of course there is only
>one reason for in our life, it is serve to USB.
>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 20 23:19:12 2001
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Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:09:36 -0600
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-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 20 23:35:37 2001
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Subject: Re: Magnetic Carbon.
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--============_-1205794491==_ma============
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   This is really irritating. I had a big message with quotes from 
everybody who responded to the message. I had computer problems and 
the entire message was erased. Basically I thanked Keith for 
reposting the URL about the magnetic Buckyballs and noted that 
whereas buckyballs resemble soot, the report says that the material 
in question was clear. I pointed out that there is another clear form 
of C.

      With regards to the production of what ever from C via an 
electrical arc. First of all, when you purchase a 99.99999 C rod and 
crucible you don't expect to have ANY significant amount of Fe in it. 
My understanding of the story is that the researchers found a 
significant amount of Fe in the dust contained in the crucible. They 
did an isotopic analasis of the material and found a significant 
amount of Fe57. Someone pointed out that this reaction was only 
observed when there was O present. Two of you mentioned Co60, 
obviously if that isotope were present there would be a significant 
amount of gamma radiation present. Someone also mentioned Mn, none of 
that was mentioned either.

      So, it all this part of the mythos of alternative physics? or is 
is possible to combine C and O in an electrical arc and get Fe.
--============_-1205794491==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: Magnetic Carbon.</title></head><body>
<div>&nbsp; This is really irritating. I had a big message with quotes
from everybody who responded to the message. I had computer problems
and the entire message was erased. Basically I thanked Keith for
reposting the URL about the magnetic Buckyballs and noted that whereas
buckyballs resemble soot, the report says that the material in
question was clear. I pointed out that there is another clear form of
C.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; With regards to the production of what
ever from C via an electrical arc. First of all, when you purchase a
99.99999 C rod and crucible you don't expect to have ANY significant
amount of Fe in it. My understanding of the story is that the
researchers found a significant amount of Fe in the dust contained in
the crucible. They did an isotopic analasis of the material and found
a significant amount of Fe57. Someone pointed out that this reaction
was only observed when there was O present. Two of you mentioned Co60,
obviously if that isotope were present there would be a significant
amount of gamma radiation present. Someone also mentioned Mn, none of
that was mentioned either. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; So, it all this part of the mythos of
alternative physics? or is is possible to combine C and O in an
electrical arc and get Fe.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1205794491==_ma============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 21 02:22:34 2001
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Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:14:43 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Horace,

Of course you had quoted a portion on my text.  What I asked is how is your comment is related to the specific quotation of my text?

For a clarification,  The philosophy that I sketch have nothing common with my views. I write it to show it is possible a philosophy, a doctrine can  hijack  human mind or communities in certain conditions like diseases. Even philosophy for the benefit of

 humanity, trying to elevate it, can be degenerated purposely, and be understood like I described. I think human mind is particularly vulnerable to doctrines based on centralized supernatural entities, and describing how to order the world according their

 principles. 

My view is only free mind, scientific thinking and science and love (if difficult to describe love scientifically) could provide a guidelines humanity.

Here is your posting in question. it appears to me you quoted most illogical part of the philosophy and you write a general comment.

**********************************
At 7:48 PM 11/18/1, hamdi ucar wrote:
[snip]
> ... it is assumed  essentially that  there is no cause-effect relation
>exist in nature. Everything is determined by fate or by orders of USB. We
>have limited responsibility for our actions because what we do is
>basically determined by fate. Fate cannot be overcome.
[snip]

Because conditions anywhere necessarily change over time, sometimes
quickly, any species operating by a set of rules that are not always
adaptable sufficiently fast to survive is doomed to extinction.  Built in
adaptability is therefore a required feature of any set of governmental
rules expected to preserve a species long term.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          
**********************************



Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 8:42 PM 11/19/1, hamdi ucar wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >BTW, I could not able to relate the quotation to you wrote
> [snip]
> 
> Below is a quote of your entire message.  Note the added "*******" that
> sets off the portion quoted:
> 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 21 10:11:53 2001
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Dear All,
I have undertaken a project recently you may find
interesting.

Six months ago I wrote a review called "Whatever Happened to
Cold Fusion" in which I attempt to answer the following
questions:

1. Have the claims been replicated?
2. Can prosaic errors or processes explain the effect?
3. Are reproducible patterns of behavior observed?
4. Can the effect be produced using various methods?
5. Why has the effect been so hard to replicate?
6. Does the anomalous energy have a nuclear source?
7. Can these claims be explained?

These questions were asked by skeptics early in the field's
history and only now can they be partially answered.

The resulting paper (37 pages, 250 citations) was sent to
Phys. Rev. B and a one page proposal was sent to Rev. of
Modern Physics and to Chemical Reviews.  Phys. Review took
two months to decide that the paper should be rejected,
using a form letter for the purpose.  Rev. of Modern Phys.
took one month to reject the proposal with a hand written
note from the editor to the effect that they would never
publish any paper about CF because it was pathological
science.  Chem. Rev. took three months to reject the
proposal based on the comments of four reviewers.  The
general tenor of the response was that CF was not good
science, that I could not be trusted to write an unbiased
review, and that such a paper would be an embarrassment to
the Journal.

In normal science, reviews are written by experts in the
field who take time  to read and evaluate all of the
literature, which involves applying their own particular
bias to the effort.  I have written many such reviews in
other fields. Reviews allow people outside of the specialty
to quickly acquire a basic understanding of the subject and,
therefore, are essential to the advancement of science.
Normally, a review is expected to emphasize the attitudes of
the writer.  In contrast, when CF is evaluated, only an
unbiased writer can be trusted.  However, in the real world,
this actually means a writer who agrees with the bias of
people who control such publications, there being no such
thing as an unbiased review.  A question naturally comes to
mind, "How can the attitude against the reality of CF be
changed when the means to change this attitude is controlled
by people who have a strong bias against the field?"  Even
the reasonable suggestion that the effect be duplicated by
recognized laboratories can not be applied because when such
studies are made, the results are frequently rejected by
conventional journals and are ignored by subsequent
reviewers if they do appear.

Another question comes to mind, "How universal is this
willingness to ignore all of the basic teachings of science
when evaluating claims?"  Is the entire scientific
profession corrupted by a close-minded herd mentally or is
the rejection of CF based on a few ignorant but powerful
people?  I suggest you explore these questions in your own
mind and with other people in science.  If you do not like
what you learn, I suggest you write to some of the editors
who reject papers about CF and express your concerns.  I
will be happy to provide you with the necessary names and
addresses by private e-mail.

Ed Storms





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 21 10:52:02 2001
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Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 10:48:57 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
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Ed
	Because of the current attitude of publishers totally biased
against CF, it seems to me that the best response is groups like this one,
open archives like the one at Los Alamos, and other underground activities
such as Infinite Energy that get the word out about what is happening is
the only thing one can do. The submittal of a good paper to the editors at
least lets them know that CF is "undead", and maybe someo people will read
it and open their minds a little. It is going to take time. Years.

	I would like to read the paper, if it is available somewhere.

Hank 
	


On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Edmund Storms wrote:

> Dear All,
> I have undertaken a project recently you may find
> interesting.
> 
> Six months ago I wrote a review called "Whatever Happened to
> Cold Fusion" in which I attempt to answer the following
> questions:
> 
> 1. Have the claims been replicated?
> 2. Can prosaic errors or processes explain the effect?
> 3. Are reproducible patterns of behavior observed?
> 4. Can the effect be produced using various methods?
> 5. Why has the effect been so hard to replicate?
> 6. Does the anomalous energy have a nuclear source?
> 7. Can these claims be explained?
> 
> These questions were asked by skeptics early in the field's
> history and only now can they be partially answered.
> 
> The resulting paper (37 pages, 250 citations) was sent to
> Phys. Rev. B and a one page proposal was sent to Rev. of
> Modern Physics and to Chemical Reviews.  Phys. Review took
> two months to decide that the paper should be rejected,
> using a form letter for the purpose.  Rev. of Modern Phys.
> took one month to reject the proposal with a hand written
> note from the editor to the effect that they would never
> publish any paper about CF because it was pathological
> science.  Chem. Rev. took three months to reject the
> proposal based on the comments of four reviewers.  The
> general tenor of the response was that CF was not good
> science, that I could not be trusted to write an unbiased
> review, and that such a paper would be an embarrassment to
> the Journal.
> 
> In normal science, reviews are written by experts in the
> field who take time  to read and evaluate all of the
> literature, which involves applying their own particular
> bias to the effort.  I have written many such reviews in
> other fields. Reviews allow people outside of the specialty
> to quickly acquire a basic understanding of the subject and,
> therefore, are essential to the advancement of science.
> Normally, a review is expected to emphasize the attitudes of
> the writer.  In contrast, when CF is evaluated, only an
> unbiased writer can be trusted.  However, in the real world,
> this actually means a writer who agrees with the bias of
> people who control such publications, there being no such
> thing as an unbiased review.  A question naturally comes to
> mind, "How can the attitude against the reality of CF be
> changed when the means to change this attitude is controlled
> by people who have a strong bias against the field?"  Even
> the reasonable suggestion that the effect be duplicated by
> recognized laboratories can not be applied because when such
> studies are made, the results are frequently rejected by
> conventional journals and are ignored by subsequent
> reviewers if they do appear.
> 
> Another question comes to mind, "How universal is this
> willingness to ignore all of the basic teachings of science
> when evaluating claims?"  Is the entire scientific
> profession corrupted by a close-minded herd mentally or is
> the rejection of CF based on a few ignorant but powerful
> people?  I suggest you explore these questions in your own
> mind and with other people in science.  If you do not like
> what you learn, I suggest you write to some of the editors
> who reject papers about CF and express your concerns.  I
> will be happy to provide you with the necessary names and
> addresses by private e-mail.
> 
> Ed Storms
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 21 11:06:42 2001
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From: Steve <steve dlsi.net>
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
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Ed:

May I have your persmission to post this on my website?

Steve

At 11:10 AM 11/21/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>Dear All,
>I have undertaken a project recently you may find
>interesting.
>
>Six months ago I wrote a review called "Whatever Happened to
>Cold Fusion" in which I attempt to answer the following
>questions:
>
>1. Have the claims been replicated?
>2. Can prosaic errors or processes explain the effect?
>3. Are reproducible patterns of behavior observed?
>4. Can the effect be produced using various methods?
>5. Why has the effect been so hard to replicate?
>6. Does the anomalous energy have a nuclear source?
>7. Can these claims be explained?
>
>These questions were asked by skeptics early in the field's
>history and only now can they be partially answered.
>
>The resulting paper (37 pages, 250 citations) was sent to
>Phys. Rev. B and a one page proposal was sent to Rev. of
>Modern Physics and to Chemical Reviews.  Phys. Review took
>two months to decide that the paper should be rejected,
>using a form letter for the purpose.  Rev. of Modern Phys.
>took one month to reject the proposal with a hand written
>note from the editor to the effect that they would never
>publish any paper about CF because it was pathological
>science.  Chem. Rev. took three months to reject the
>proposal based on the comments of four reviewers.  The
>general tenor of the response was that CF was not good
>science, that I could not be trusted to write an unbiased
>review, and that such a paper would be an embarrassment to
>the Journal.
>
>In normal science, reviews are written by experts in the
>field who take time  to read and evaluate all of the
>literature, which involves applying their own particular
>bias to the effort.  I have written many such reviews in
>other fields. Reviews allow people outside of the specialty
>to quickly acquire a basic understanding of the subject and,
>therefore, are essential to the advancement of science.
>Normally, a review is expected to emphasize the attitudes of
>the writer.  In contrast, when CF is evaluated, only an
>unbiased writer can be trusted.  However, in the real world,
>this actually means a writer who agrees with the bias of
>people who control such publications, there being no such
>thing as an unbiased review.  A question naturally comes to
>mind, "How can the attitude against the reality of CF be
>changed when the means to change this attitude is controlled
>by people who have a strong bias against the field?"  Even
>the reasonable suggestion that the effect be duplicated by
>recognized laboratories can not be applied because when such
>studies are made, the results are frequently rejected by
>conventional journals and are ignored by subsequent
>reviewers if they do appear.
>
>Another question comes to mind, "How universal is this
>willingness to ignore all of the basic teachings of science
>when evaluating claims?"  Is the entire scientific
>profession corrupted by a close-minded herd mentally or is
>the rejection of CF based on a few ignorant but powerful
>people?  I suggest you explore these questions in your own
>mind and with other people in science.  If you do not like
>what you learn, I suggest you write to some of the editors
>who reject papers about CF and express your concerns.  I
>will be happy to provide you with the necessary names and
>addresses by private e-mail.
>
>Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 21 12:19:26 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 07:15:56 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:10:24 -0600:
[snip]
>Another question comes to mind, "How universal is this
>willingness to ignore all of the basic teachings of science
>when evaluating claims?"  Is the entire scientific
[snip]
Hi Ed,

I'm afraid it's almost all pervasive. When you take a close look at
astronomy and other space related sciences, you will see that the whole
lot is a house of cards based on one tenuous assumption after another.
Unfortunately the science of physics is even worse off. It has been on
the wrong course for almost a hundred years. A few sporadic individuals
are breaking with the consensus, but it will be a decade at least before
the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
Both relativity and QM are based on false assumptions (though near
enough to correct to yield valid results in most cases).

The implication of this is that almost everyone is prepared to follow
the status quo rather than the scientific method.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnetic Carbon.
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 07:31:41 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:33:07 -0600:
[snip]
>      With regards to the production of what ever from C via an 
>electrical arc. First of all, when you purchase a 99.99999 C rod and 
>crucible you don't expect to have ANY significant amount of Fe in it. 
>My understanding of the story is that the researchers found a 
>significant amount of Fe in the dust contained in the crucible. They 
>did an isotopic analasis of the material and found a significant 
>amount of Fe57. Someone pointed out that this reaction was only 
>observed when there was O present. Two of you mentioned Co60, 
>obviously if that isotope were present there would be a significant 
>amount of gamma radiation present. Someone also mentioned Mn, none of 
>that was mentioned either.
[snip]
If such a reaction is taking place, then a possibility is

2 x C12 + 2 x O16 -> Fe56 + 51 MeV

since 1% of C is C13,

occasionally one would get

C12+C13 + 2 x O16 -> Fe57

Did they mention the % of Fe57?


Given the large amount of energy produced by the reaction, either the
amount of Fe produced would have to have been minuscule, or a new method
of energy release must have been present.
For the latter I suggest two possibilities:
1) neutrino - antineutrino pair formation (so far no one has pointed out
why this doesn't happen more often - perhaps it just isn't observed
because it doesn't have an energy signature).
2) energy loss in the form of a deposit into the Heisenberg bank.
   (Everyone wants to take out what they haven't put in, but no one 
    seems to want to make deposits ;).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 21 13:17:42 2001
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Yes, by all means.  Thanks for the offer.

Ed

Steve wrote:

> Ed:
>
> May I have your persmission to post this on my website?
>
> Steve
>
> At 11:10 AM 11/21/2001 -0600, you wrote:
> >Dear All,
> >I have undertaken a project recently you may find
> >interesting.
> >
> >Six months ago I wrote a review called "Whatever Happened to
> >Cold Fusion" in which I attempt to answer the following
> >questions:
> >
> >1. Have the claims been replicated?
> >2. Can prosaic errors or processes explain the effect?
> >3. Are reproducible patterns of behavior observed?
> >4. Can the effect be produced using various methods?
> >5. Why has the effect been so hard to replicate?
> >6. Does the anomalous energy have a nuclear source?
> >7. Can these claims be explained?
> >
> >These questions were asked by skeptics early in the field's
> >history and only now can they be partially answered.
> >
> >The resulting paper (37 pages, 250 citations) was sent to
> >Phys. Rev. B and a one page proposal was sent to Rev. of
> >Modern Physics and to Chemical Reviews.  Phys. Review took
> >two months to decide that the paper should be rejected,
> >using a form letter for the purpose.  Rev. of Modern Phys.
> >took one month to reject the proposal with a hand written
> >note from the editor to the effect that they would never
> >publish any paper about CF because it was pathological
> >science.  Chem. Rev. took three months to reject the
> >proposal based on the comments of four reviewers.  The
> >general tenor of the response was that CF was not good
> >science, that I could not be trusted to write an unbiased
> >review, and that such a paper would be an embarrassment to
> >the Journal.
> >
> >In normal science, reviews are written by experts in the
> >field who take time  to read and evaluate all of the
> >literature, which involves applying their own particular
> >bias to the effort.  I have written many such reviews in
> >other fields. Reviews allow people outside of the specialty
> >to quickly acquire a basic understanding of the subject and,
> >therefore, are essential to the advancement of science.
> >Normally, a review is expected to emphasize the attitudes of
> >the writer.  In contrast, when CF is evaluated, only an
> >unbiased writer can be trusted.  However, in the real world,
> >this actually means a writer who agrees with the bias of
> >people who control such publications, there being no such
> >thing as an unbiased review.  A question naturally comes to
> >mind, "How can the attitude against the reality of CF be
> >changed when the means to change this attitude is controlled
> >by people who have a strong bias against the field?"  Even
> >the reasonable suggestion that the effect be duplicated by
> >recognized laboratories can not be applied because when such
> >studies are made, the results are frequently rejected by
> >conventional journals and are ignored by subsequent
> >reviewers if they do appear.
> >
> >Another question comes to mind, "How universal is this
> >willingness to ignore all of the basic teachings of science
> >when evaluating claims?"  Is the entire scientific
> >profession corrupted by a close-minded herd mentally or is
> >the rejection of CF based on a few ignorant but powerful
> >people?  I suggest you explore these questions in your own
> >mind and with other people in science.  If you do not like
> >what you learn, I suggest you write to some of the editors
> >who reject papers about CF and express your concerns.  I
> >will be happy to provide you with the necessary names and
> >addresses by private e-mail.
> >
> >Ed Storms

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hank scudder wrote:

> Ed
>         Because of the current attitude of publishers totally biased
> against CF, it seems to me that the best response is groups like this one,
> open archives like the one at Los Alamos, and other underground activities
> such as Infinite Energy that get the word out about what is happening is
> the only thing one can do. The submittal of a good paper to the editors at
> least lets them know that CF is "undead", and maybe someo people will read
> it and open their minds a little. It is going to take time. Years.
>
>         I would like to read the paper, if it is available somewhere.

Yes, such archives are available and easy to use.  However, no one reads
them.  At most, this will prove to historians in the future that the evidence
was available for any interested person to see, thereby making the current
crop of blockheads look even more ridiculous, for all that will be worth.  I
will eventually get the paper published and will certainly put it on my
website soon.  I will let you know when.

Ed

>
>
> Hank
>
>
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> > Dear All,
> > I have undertaken a project recently you may find
> > interesting.
> >
> > Six months ago I wrote a review called "Whatever Happened to
> > Cold Fusion" in which I attempt to answer the following
> > questions:
> >
> > 1. Have the claims been replicated?
> > 2. Can prosaic errors or processes explain the effect?
> > 3. Are reproducible patterns of behavior observed?
> > 4. Can the effect be produced using various methods?
> > 5. Why has the effect been so hard to replicate?
> > 6. Does the anomalous energy have a nuclear source?
> > 7. Can these claims be explained?
> >
> > These questions were asked by skeptics early in the field's
> > history and only now can they be partially answered.
> >
> > The resulting paper (37 pages, 250 citations) was sent to
> > Phys. Rev. B and a one page proposal was sent to Rev. of
> > Modern Physics and to Chemical Reviews.  Phys. Review took
> > two months to decide that the paper should be rejected,
> > using a form letter for the purpose.  Rev. of Modern Phys.
> > took one month to reject the proposal with a hand written
> > note from the editor to the effect that they would never
> > publish any paper about CF because it was pathological
> > science.  Chem. Rev. took three months to reject the
> > proposal based on the comments of four reviewers.  The
> > general tenor of the response was that CF was not good
> > science, that I could not be trusted to write an unbiased
> > review, and that such a paper would be an embarrassment to
> > the Journal.
> >
> > In normal science, reviews are written by experts in the
> > field who take time  to read and evaluate all of the
> > literature, which involves applying their own particular
> > bias to the effort.  I have written many such reviews in
> > other fields. Reviews allow people outside of the specialty
> > to quickly acquire a basic understanding of the subject and,
> > therefore, are essential to the advancement of science.
> > Normally, a review is expected to emphasize the attitudes of
> > the writer.  In contrast, when CF is evaluated, only an
> > unbiased writer can be trusted.  However, in the real world,
> > this actually means a writer who agrees with the bias of
> > people who control such publications, there being no such
> > thing as an unbiased review.  A question naturally comes to
> > mind, "How can the attitude against the reality of CF be
> > changed when the means to change this attitude is controlled
> > by people who have a strong bias against the field?"  Even
> > the reasonable suggestion that the effect be duplicated by
> > recognized laboratories can not be applied because when such
> > studies are made, the results are frequently rejected by
> > conventional journals and are ignored by subsequent
> > reviewers if they do appear.
> >
> > Another question comes to mind, "How universal is this
> > willingness to ignore all of the basic teachings of science
> > when evaluating claims?"  Is the entire scientific
> > profession corrupted by a close-minded herd mentally or is
> > the rejection of CF based on a few ignorant but powerful
> > people?  I suggest you explore these questions in your own
> > mind and with other people in science.  If you do not like
> > what you learn, I suggest you write to some of the editors
> > who reject papers about CF and express your concerns.  I
> > will be happy to provide you with the necessary names and
> > addresses by private e-mail.
> >
> > Ed Storms
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

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Subject: Re: A question of integrity
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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On 11/21/01 9:10 AM, "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> Another question comes to mind, "How universal is this
> willingness to ignore all of the basic teachings of science
> when evaluating claims?"

It is most certainly UNIVERSAL -- as far as so-called "mainstream"
publications are concerned.  In fact, we recently discovered that Nature
magazine has an actual "Index" of forbidden topics which are guaranteed NOT
to be reviewed -- entered in the review cycle, just for being that
particular topic.  It is worse even than that. I know of one instance in
which FOUR Nobel laureates vouched for a heretical *experimental* work of
fantastic importance that revealed some of the innermost workings of
acupuncture. Still the paper was rejected!

> Is the entire scientific
> profession corrupted by a close-minded herd mentally

YES!!!  For me, in fact, this is a far more profound discovery than even the
certain existence of CF.  Not only that, there are numerous people in
so-called "new physics" who keep proceeding along the same disfunctional
lines of research and theory even when experimental evidence to the contrary
has been stuck right in their faces!  I am more sympathetic to the latter,
but these people are somewhat related to the mainstream bigots.

> or is
> the rejection of CF based on a few ignorant but powerful
> people?  I suggest you explore these questions in your own
> mind and with other people in science.  If you do not like
> what you learn, I suggest you write to some of the editors
> who reject papers about CF and express your concerns.  I
> will be happy to provide you with the necessary names and
> addresses by private e-mail.

I have already learned enough to have drawn the above conclusions.  But
please do provide me the particulars -- names and addresses -- so I can
write to the villains and tell them the errors of their ways.
> 
> Ed Storms

Gene

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
Director, New Energy Research Laboratory
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
   editor infinite-energy.com
   www.infinite-energy.com
Ph: 603-228-4516
Fx: 603-224-5975
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 21 13:41:48 2001
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Dear Robin,
I don't know if this state of affairs makes me feel better or not. Clearly,
we as a species are in another intellectual cul-de-sac at many levels.  I
suppose, we as individuals can only step over and around the bull-shit
while turning as much of it as we can into compost for eventual use on our
personal garden.  We will not be able to feed the world this way, but we
will each have a good meal once in awhile.

Ed

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:10:24 -0600:
> [snip]
> >Another question comes to mind, "How universal is this
> >willingness to ignore all of the basic teachings of science
> >when evaluating claims?"  Is the entire scientific
> [snip]
> Hi Ed,
>
> I'm afraid it's almost all pervasive. When you take a close look at
> astronomy and other space related sciences, you will see that the whole
> lot is a house of cards based on one tenuous assumption after another.
> Unfortunately the science of physics is even worse off. It has been on
> the wrong course for almost a hundred years. A few sporadic individuals
> are breaking with the consensus, but it will be a decade at least before
> the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
> Both relativity and QM are based on false assumptions (though near
> enough to correct to yield valid results in most cases).
>
> The implication of this is that almost everyone is prepared to follow
> the status quo rather than the scientific method.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
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Not only the errors of the last 100 years, but the vested interests in big
oil and hot fusion research budgets. They put a damper on anything that
threatens the status quo. Greed and fear cause double dealing when it comes
to peer review. There is no set timetable for acceptance of the next
paradigm shift. Unfortunately, it will probably take a crisis of major
proportions, such as running out of oil..

Meanwhile, I applaud those who continue with the research. Some of you face
severe obstacles.

Best Regards,
Colin Quinney

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: A question of integrity


> In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:10:24 -0600:
> [snip]
> >Another question comes to mind, "How universal is this
> >willingness to ignore all of the basic teachings of science
> >when evaluating claims?"  Is the entire scientific
> [snip]
> Hi Ed,
>
> I'm afraid it's almost all pervasive. When you take a close look at
> astronomy and other space related sciences, you will see that the whole
> lot is a house of cards based on one tenuous assumption after another.
> Unfortunately the science of physics is even worse off. It has been on
> the wrong course for almost a hundred years. A few sporadic individuals
> are breaking with the consensus, but it will be a decade at least before
> the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
> Both relativity and QM are based on false assumptions (though near
> enough to correct to yield valid results in most cases).
>
> The implication of this is that almost everyone is prepared to follow
> the status quo rather than the scientific method.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
>


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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Subject: Re: A question of integrity
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:13:23 GMT
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On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:10:24 -0600, Edmund Storms
<storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Is the entire scientific
>profession corrupted by a close-minded herd mentally

Yup.

Just wait until the reports come out about the city that has been
found just off the western coast of Cuba -- 2200 feet below the
surface.  That could shake up some paradigms.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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Hi Dean,

Please.. tell us more.

Colin Quinney

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: A question of integrity


> On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:10:24 -0600, Edmund Storms
> <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> 
> >Is the entire scientific
> >profession corrupted by a close-minded herd mentally
> 
> Yup.
> 
> Just wait until the reports come out about the city that has been
> found just off the western coast of Cuba -- 2200 feet below the
> surface.  That could shake up some paradigms.
> 
> -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF
> 


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 21 16:19:24 2001
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From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Loading Pd over 1.0
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Jed
	In my spare time, (there isn't much in grad school), I have run
some hypothetical theoretical runs on Hydrogen loading of Pd using the
CASTEP system. CASTEP is a quantum mechanical modelling system for
crystaline structures, which predicts binding energies, and
it allows relaxation of the geometric structure of the crystal to a
configuration of minimum total energy (at a temperature of absolute zero,
so molecular motion doesn't interfere). CASTEP is a portion of the Cerius2
modelling system sold by Accelrys (formerly MSI, Molecular Simulations
Inc.)
    
I set up a crystal of Pd, which normally has a body centered cubic
structure, and I let it relax to a minimum energy configuration. This
resulted in a lattice constant of 3.90953 Angstroms, and a total energy
of -3209.0223 eV.

I then set up a PdH hydride, using the same crystal structure, and
inserted a Hydrogen atom in between each Pd atom, and let it relax,
resulting in a total energy of -3273.5869 eV with a lattice constant of
4.086193 Angstroms. If I then subtract out the energy of the Hydrogen
atoms alone in this same geometry, of -53.5859 eV and of Pd alone of
-3208.5153 eV, I get a binding energy of -11.8619 eV, or -5.93095 eV
per Pd atom, which is quite stable. The average molecular energy at room
temperature, kT, is about 0.025 eV so thermal motion will not disrupt the
PdH hydride.

This is all for now, I am going home for thanksgiving holiday.
Hank



On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I have often heard it is impossible to load Pd with H or D to a ratio over 
> 1.0. In other words, you cannot cram in more hydrogen atoms than there are 
> palladium atoms. So I was surprised to hear Celani claim that thin wire 
> experiments at his lab, ENEA, SRI and Pirelli have demonstrated loading at 
> higher levels, up to 1.5, and typically 1.2 to 1.3.
> 
> Cold fusion with palladium apparently depends upon high loading. For many 
> years people have been trying to develop methods to load quickly, uniformly 
> and reliably, that is, with good reproducibility.
> 
> I asked some electrochemists about this. Storms, Britz and McKubre informed 
> me that such higher loading has been observed, but it is difficult to know 
> how high the loading is actually going, because the standard methods of 
> measuring loading may not work predictably above 1.0. McKubre wrote: “There 
> is no fundamental reason why you cannot load Pd to 2 ( or even 3).  It 
> either requires double occupancy of the Octahedral sites (as conjectured by 
> no less than Linus Pauling and Julian Schwinger), or occupation of 
> the  Tetrahedral sites, as was much conjectured by Giuliano Preparata 
> (being  followed up now by Vittorio Violante), and others. There are 
> published papers in the Russian literature at D/Pd = 1.33 from ion 
> implantation.”
> 
> During his JCF3 lecture, Celani reported progress with the technique. He 
> says it used to take two days to load up to 1.3, but now it has been done 
> repeatedly in a much shorter time, with both H and D. The main problem is 
> to keep the electrolyte clean. He said, “It is possible to load hydrogen up 
> to 1.3 in one hour. When I [told] Fleischmann [about these results], last 
> month, he thought it was impossible. Completely impossible. Or at least it 
> would need three months.”
> 
> McKubre explained, “Resistance ratios that look like loadings of 1.1 (or 
> more) can easily be obtained in very thin wires (less than 125 microns) in 
> periods of only a few hours. The problem is a thermodynamic one, NOT 
> diffusion times (which are only seconds or minutes in these structures).” 
> He says ratios can be obtained, meaning that when you measure by the 
> resistance method it looks as if the wire is highly loaded, but that may 
> not be strictly true. He e-mailed me a paper about this:
> 
> Physics Letters A 276 (2000) 1­5
> 
> Temperature coefficient of resistivity at compositions
> approaching PdH
> 
> P. Tripodi, M.C.H. McKubre, F.L.Tanzella, P.A. Honnor, D. Di Gioacchino, F. 
> Celani, V. Violante
> 
> Here is the Abstract, which has quite a few Greek letters. I hope I have 
> replaced them all correctly:
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Measurements have been made of the temperature coefficient of resistivity, 
> lambda, versus hydrogen concentration, H/Pd, at very high concentrations in 
> the Pd-H system. Unusually high hydrogen compositions were achieved using 
> an electrochemical loading
> procedure which allowed stable Pd­H systems to be obtained. It is well 
> known that increasing the H/Pd concentrations leads to three different 
> phases (alpha, alpha+beta, beta), respectively, in the Pd­H system; the 
> beta phase is thought to end in an asymptotic limit. Possible evidence that 
> a new phase (gamma) exists, bordering the beta phase at compositions H/Pd > 
> 0.9 is reported and discussed.
> 
>  Jed


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Dear Hank,
While the fcc PdH can not be loaded beyond PdH1.0, the next phase in the system
will go to higher compositions.  I have proposed this phase is fcc PdH2, with
two H atoms at each lattice site rather than one.  To the extent that this phase
forms on a cathode, the average composition would be greater than unity. Can you
model such a structure with your program?

Ed

hank scudder wrote:

> Jed
>         In my spare time, (there isn't much in grad school), I have run
> some hypothetical theoretical runs on Hydrogen loading of Pd using the
> CASTEP system. CASTEP is a quantum mechanical modelling system for
> crystaline structures, which predicts binding energies, and
> it allows relaxation of the geometric structure of the crystal to a
> configuration of minimum total energy (at a temperature of absolute zero,
> so molecular motion doesn't interfere). CASTEP is a portion of the Cerius2
> modelling system sold by Accelrys (formerly MSI, Molecular Simulations
> Inc.)
>
> I set up a crystal of Pd, which normally has a body centered cubic
> structure, and I let it relax to a minimum energy configuration. This
> resulted in a lattice constant of 3.90953 Angstroms, and a total energy
> of -3209.0223 eV.
>
> I then set up a PdH hydride, using the same crystal structure, and
> inserted a Hydrogen atom in between each Pd atom, and let it relax,
> resulting in a total energy of -3273.5869 eV with a lattice constant of
> 4.086193 Angstroms. If I then subtract out the energy of the Hydrogen
> atoms alone in this same geometry, of -53.5859 eV and of Pd alone of
> -3208.5153 eV, I get a binding energy of -11.8619 eV, or -5.93095 eV
> per Pd atom, which is quite stable. The average molecular energy at room
> temperature, kT, is about 0.025 eV so thermal motion will not disrupt the
> PdH hydride.
>
> This is all for now, I am going home for thanksgiving holiday.
> Hank
>
> On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> > I have often heard it is impossible to load Pd with H or D to a ratio over
> > 1.0. In other words, you cannot cram in more hydrogen atoms than there are
> > palladium atoms. So I was surprised to hear Celani claim that thin wire
> > experiments at his lab, ENEA, SRI and Pirelli have demonstrated loading at
> > higher levels, up to 1.5, and typically 1.2 to 1.3.
> >
> > Cold fusion with palladium apparently depends upon high loading. For many
> > years people have been trying to develop methods to load quickly, uniformly
> > and reliably, that is, with good reproducibility.
> >
> > I asked some electrochemists about this. Storms, Britz and McKubre informed
> > me that such higher loading has been observed, but it is difficult to know
> > how high the loading is actually going, because the standard methods of
> > measuring loading may not work predictably above 1.0. McKubre wrote: “There
> > is no fundamental reason why you cannot load Pd to 2 ( or even 3).  It
> > either requires double occupancy of the Octahedral sites (as conjectured by
> > no less than Linus Pauling and Julian Schwinger), or occupation of
> > the  Tetrahedral sites, as was much conjectured by Giuliano Preparata
> > (being  followed up now by Vittorio Violante), and others. There are
> > published papers in the Russian literature at D/Pd = 1.33 from ion
> > implantation.”
> >
> > During his JCF3 lecture, Celani reported progress with the technique. He
> > says it used to take two days to load up to 1.3, but now it has been done
> > repeatedly in a much shorter time, with both H and D. The main problem is
> > to keep the electrolyte clean. He said, “It is possible to load hydrogen up
> > to 1.3 in one hour. When I [told] Fleischmann [about these results], last
> > month, he thought it was impossible. Completely impossible. Or at least it
> > would need three months.”
> >
> > McKubre explained, “Resistance ratios that look like loadings of 1.1 (or
> > more) can easily be obtained in very thin wires (less than 125 microns) in
> > periods of only a few hours. The problem is a thermodynamic one, NOT
> > diffusion times (which are only seconds or minutes in these structures).”
> > He says ratios can be obtained, meaning that when you measure by the
> > resistance method it looks as if the wire is highly loaded, but that may
> > not be strictly true. He e-mailed me a paper about this:
> >
> > Physics Letters A 276 (2000) 1?5
> >
> > Temperature coefficient of resistivity at compositions
> > approaching PdH
> >
> > P. Tripodi, M.C.H. McKubre, F.L.Tanzella, P.A. Honnor, D. Di Gioacchino, F.
> > Celani, V. Violante
> >
> > Here is the Abstract, which has quite a few Greek letters. I hope I have
> > replaced them all correctly:
> >
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >
> > Measurements have been made of the temperature coefficient of resistivity,
> > lambda, versus hydrogen concentration, H/Pd, at very high concentrations in
> > the Pd-H system. Unusually high hydrogen compositions were achieved using
> > an electrochemical loading
> > procedure which allowed stable Pd?H systems to be obtained. It is well
> > known that increasing the H/Pd concentrations leads to three different
> > phases (alpha, alpha+beta, beta), respectively, in the Pd?H system; the
> > beta phase is thought to end in an asymptotic limit. Possible evidence that
> > a new phase (gamma) exists, bordering the beta phase at compositions H/Pd >
> > 0.9 is reported and discussed.
> >
> >  Jed

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 02:45:57 GMT
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On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 18:29:00 -0500, "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
wrote:

>Please.. tell us more.

This topic, about sunken cities, isn't really relevant to "new" energy
sources, but here are some WWW sites to visit.

For the Cuba site: 
 http://www.earthfiles.com/earth303.htm
http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/cuba_underwater.html
http://www.andrewcollins.net/page/articles/lostcity.htm
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y01/feb01/12e7.htm

For Okinawa: 
http://www.crystalinks.com/below.html and
http://www.mozingodesigns.com/brainrape/html/japans_pyramid_pictures.html
"One of the greatest discoveries in the history of archaeology was
made last summer, off Japan.  There, spread over an amazing 311 miles
on the ocean floor, are the well-preserved remains of an ancient city.
Or at the very least, a number of closely related sites. "

There are also underwater "cities" offshore from India and other
places.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 21 19:46:49 2001
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I need 6Ghz to inject into a caduceus coil.
And ideas?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 21 20:26:27 2001
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At 04:27 PM 11/21/01 -0800, you wrote:
>On 11/21/01 9:10 AM, "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > Another question comes to mind, "How universal is this
> > willingness to ignore all of the basic teachings of science
> > when evaluating claims?"
>
>It is most certainly UNIVERSAL -- as far as so-called "mainstream"
>publications are concerned.  In fact, we recently

Gentlemen:

This is an old and redundant concern.  the "mainstream" always has, does 
and will always avoid the new.  Remember that Newton was prosecuted for his 
findings.  Remember George Simon Ohm was sited for his findings 
posthumously. Einstein suffered many years of rejection following the 1906 
publication only finally to be recognized twenty years later.  Even then 
only by a small group.  Einstein was not fully excepted unfortunately until 
the bomb was dropped.

Understand that most people get an education because that is the only way 
they can move forward.  They are not adaptable enough to grasp concepts 
that affront there belief system. (there education)  The solution is to 
remove yourself from the mainstream as it will only bring you persecution 
and disappointment.

I am quite sure that the mainstream will not accept cold fusion until it is 
generating power and attached to the grid.  I am also quite sure that in 
some cases even that will not be enough.

Edmund:

There are other places to publish this review.  For a couple of hundred 
bucks you can have it done by an on line publisher.  I am sure that you 
could sell copies and more then return this tiny investment.  Lets face it 
it is likely that Parks had to do it this way. (though he will never admit 
it) If you go to a bookstore and ask for books by him you will come away 
empty handed.  Sad but true.  Publishing is a business not a science.  As 
such a publisher will likely be more concerned with what his customers want 
then the truth.

As for the rest of us we continue to move forward even if we have to bank 
role our own work.  Just as those who came before us have done.

Einstein's success was largely based on sudden world wide 
recognition.  "The damn thing worked."

If we are to succeed with CF it must work.  It is time to stop trying to 
prove it to the mainstream and start engineering products based on this new 
science.




_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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At 02:18 PM 11/21/01 -0600, you wrote:

>Yes, by all means.  Thanks for the offer.
>
>Ed
>
>Steve wrote:
>
> > Ed:
> >
> > May I have your persmission to post this on my website?
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > At 11:10 AM 11/21/2001 -0600, you wrote:
> > >Dear All,
> > >I have undertaken a project recently you may find
> > >interesting.

Steve:

Could you provide "Vo" with a link when you are done.

Thanks!



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Loading Pd over 1.0
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 16:39:22 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  hank scudder's message of Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:16:06 -0800:
Hi Hank,
>I set up a crystal of Pd, which normally has a body centered cubic
>structure, and I let it relax to a minimum energy configuration. This
>resulted in a lattice constant of 3.90953 Angstroms, 

The info I have says that Pd is normally face centred, not body centred
(as Ed has already pointed out), with a lattice constant of 3.8907 Å.
You might like to try fcc and see if you come up with the same lattice
constant (as a test of the software).
(See http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Pd/xtal.html )

>and a total energy
>of -3209.0223 eV.

This appears to be the total binding energy of the mini-crystal you
modelled.

(See also
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Pd/latt.html )

>
>I then set up a PdH hydride, using the same crystal structure, and
>inserted a Hydrogen atom in between each Pd atom, and let it relax,
>resulting in a total energy of -3273.5869 eV with a lattice constant of
>4.086193 Angstroms. If I then subtract out the energy of the Hydrogen
>atoms alone in this same geometry, of -53.5859 eV and of Pd alone of
>-3208.5153 eV, I get a binding energy of -11.8619 eV, 


I get 11.4857 eV (so I assume we are on the same track).

>or -5.93095 eV
>per Pd atom, which is quite stable. 

Given that the -11.8619 eV was what was left over for the whole crystal,
and -5.93095 eV is 1/2 of that, this would seem to imply that your
crystal only had 2 Pd atoms in it (which would make sense if you were
only looking at a single bcc lattice cell). However, I can't correlate
this with a total binding energy of thousands of eV for the pure Pd, as
that would then mean -1636.79345 eV / Pd atom which is ridiculous.

(BTW I think 5 eV is probably exorbitant anyway, as that is a pretty
large number for any chemical reaction).

>The average molecular energy at room
>temperature, kT, is about 0.025 eV so thermal motion will not disrupt the
>PdH hydride.
>
>This is all for now, I am going home for thanksgiving holiday.
>Hank
This will be waiting for you when you get back :)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Publication rights: Rights and Wrongs: re:A Question of Integrity
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November 22. 2001

Vortex,

The November 12th issue of American Chemical Society's Chemical &
Engineering News Magazine has a long article on "Publication Ethics:
Rights and Wrongs which I believe is relevant to Dr. Edmund Storms'
experience with the series of rejections of his paper on a Cold Fusion
review. Perhaps Dr. Storms, a retired chemist, may still be a member of
the ACS and has access to the article. It is unfortunate that the
article, although also available online, is available only to
subscribers.
The subtitle to the article is: 'Balancing obligations and interests
surrounding dissemination of research is an arduous task.'
:The article is comprehensibly written by Stephen K. Ritter, C&EN
Washington.
Quote: "Integrity and Trust. These values are the hallmarks of the
scientific discovery and publication process. Being objective is
critical to this process, because communicating one's research is to the
scientific community is at the heart of what keeps science alive. It's
also the principal way that scientists make their reputations, get jobs,
and promotions, and obtain sustained research support.
But" ---- unquote.
Among the topics touched on are:
Commercial interests interwoven into research, control of patents,
'collegial' competitiveness, economic gains - personal and
institutional, credit equality, misconduct, low ethical awareness and
adherence to standards, and publication ethics.
One item mentioned that complicates the publication issue is the 1980
Bayh- Dole Act. This act is intended to facilitate technology transfer
from federally (your tax money) funded institutional research to
commercial development. The Act has caused the enrichment of those
institutions and researchers but also has caused the GREED process to
start interfering with the pure investigation process of academic
research and invention. So in a sense, Science is no longer pure or
'normal. It tries to but never has been. It is more muddied than before.
There has been outcries and bemoaning of the so called "Inventor's
Disease" which supposedly interfered with 'progress'. It seems the
disease is not too pathological as asserted. Perhaps there is another
more deadly disease that is fast spreading: 'The Science Process
Disease' with the death of integrity, trust, and objectivity.

The details of the Bayh-Dole Act is available online.
Also there is a link in the ACS article to Sigma XI's publications:
"Honor in Science" and "The Responsible Researcher: Path and Pitfalls"
Also Sigma XI had a forum  in November 9-10, 2000: "New Ethical
Challenges in Science and Technology"
The forum proceedings can be downloaded free.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 22 07:56:41 2001
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Subject: Re: A question of integrity
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Eugene Mallove posted;

>so-called "new physics" who keep proceeding along the same disfunctional
>lines of research and theory even when experimental evidence to the contrary
>has been stuck right in their faces!  I am more sympathetic to the latter,
>but these people are somewhat related to the mainstream bigots.

I'm surprised that they would refuse to acknowledge an article on 
acupuncture. OTOH, they are happy to ignore what ever violates their 
pet paradigm. A classic for instance of this is the isotopic spectrum 
which shows anomylous amounts of rare isotopes. Robert Cook's 
inertial drive which assuming it is true would turn science on it's 
head has been totally ignored.

>I have already learned enough to have drawn the above conclusions.  But
>please do provide me the particulars -- names and addresses -- so I can
>write to the villains and tell them the errors of their ways.
>>
>  > Ed Storms
>
>The best thing that we can do is to cronicle the truth and push 
>ahead with new developments. When this thing breaks it will make all 
>of them look like fools.


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 22 07:57:55 2001
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Vortexians, I received the following message from Bruce Meland. I was 
in a meeting with a mechanical engineer yesterday, he mentioned 100+ 
MPG carburators as an example of a machine which simpley couldn't 
work, because, "you can calculate the amount of energy in a gallon of 
gasoline, and you can't get enough energy out to make this possible." 
When I read this letter it occurred to me that if you have a car that 
is getting 20 MPG and it is extracting 20% of the energy in the 
gasoline then if you managed to extract 100% of the energy in it you 
could get 100 MPG, unfortunately the engine and it's exhaust would be 
cold, which would be a problem particularly here in Minnesocold.

The question of supression that he raises is a lot more insidious. 
Particularly if it involves FBI and other governmental agencies. I'm 
going to see if I can get get someone to investigate this story.

I think I detect the odor of BS.

I have a friend who also has a BSME degree. Several weeks ago he told 
me about this website, So we shall see.

From: "bruce meland" <etimes teleport.com>

The Preview 2002 edition of Electrifying Times published a feature article
on high milage carburetors and their supression by the oil  and auto
companies. This is just another chapter in the continuing saga in the world
of making the
planet a cleaner place to live and the supression the these technologies by
the large corporations. check out our web site, www.electrifyingtimes.com
for more revolutionary technology that will make our  planet more livable
and keep us our of wars which are essentially fought over oil and natural
resources.  Spread the word about this topic.
SUPRESSION    OR  COINCIDENCE ?

                                       YOU DECIDE

     IS... US. PATENT # 5,782,225....BEING SUPPRESSED.....OR...ARE  THE
     "HARDSHIPS". THAT. THE." INVENTOR SUFFERED"..JUST
     .A."COINCIDENCE".??????." YOU DECIDE "



     In  the early 1970  I owned and operated a company called  Debal
Heating and Air cond.  In Brockton  Ma. This was about the time that we
had that phony gasoline shortage  . Each morning myself and 12 employees
would
sit in the  gas line with 6 trucks to get a mere 5 gallons of gasoline.

     As I sat in that gasoline line day after day, I started to think there
must be a better way. If they have the technology to put a man on the moon
they must have
the  technology to get  much better gas mileage . I read everything that I
could get my hands on about this technology. It wasn't long before I built
my first fuel vaporization system .

     Well sad to say it didn't work . It made plenty of vapors, and exploded
like a BOMB. Over 70% of my body received  3rd.burns. I spent 69 days in
intensive
care, kissing death several times. Don't worry  all the bugs are worked out
now.

October 15 1983 was the birth of    My fuel implosion vaporization
system.At this time I owned and operated a company in Brockton ma. called
weatherall  Energy Research and development.  I had just finished building a
commercial high efficiency air condition evaporating  Coil. I poured one
gallon of gasoline in one end
  to flush it out, to my surprise massive fumes discharged from the otheR end
and all I  got back was less than one cup of gasoline.

     I started brain storming, I miniaturized  the air cond. evaporator coil
installed it in 1973 Dodge station wagon with a 318 engine.  By early 1986
we had  worked out all the short comings and bugs and had a working
prototype that gave  between 111 to 113 mpg.

We placed an add in the Brockton enterprise and Boston globe, seeking people
to Bata test our fuel implosion system. It wasn't long before I  a got a
call from a California Corp. wanting
exclusive rights to our invention. my attorney checked them out. they were
subsidiary of
several other corporations finally all owned by a oil co.  I declined there
offer.
Shortly there after all  my troubles started. First came two men showed Id
saying that they were from The FBI. and that I was  violating federal laws.
alterations to cerebration systems. and if convicted i could get
20 years in a federal prison. I called my attorney, told him what happened,
My attorney informed me that I wasn't in any violation of any federal laws.

     If I was smart I should of stopped here. ( BUT I AM NOT  TO SMART)  For
about the next two weeks I would receive every day in the mail  in a plain
envelope 8x10 close up Photos of my wife  in the super market, church, and
my children getting on  and off the school bus and in the playground at
school. ( just
pictures only)  In addition we would get all kinds of weird calls mostly
after 2am. My wife couldn't take any more, she filed for divorce and left
me. A few days later my Attorney should up at my office , looking white as a
Ghost ,he  had all my legal files and records with him placed them on my
desk and
said that he could no longer represent me in any legal matters. I asked why.
All he
would say is  WAKE UP . I could not understand. he had been my personal
friend and
attorney for over 16 years.

     When  my wife divorced me, My Attorney abandoned  me, what alse could
happen, I thought nothing, nobody can stop me now, so on with my fuel
implosion
system. Boy was I wrong hell opened up and swallowed me alive.
   I am a very light drinker, if I drink 6 cans of beer a year I did a lot
of drinking.  I never did drugs or was around anybody that did.
On July 4 , 1986  The chief of the Brockton Police Richard Sprawls. with
a bunch of other Brockton Police raided my Tremont St  Brockton home, and
arrested
me for  trafficking of cocaine. My bail was set at $500.000.

     I was lucky That I had a friend LT. Jim Sullivan of the Brockton Pd. he
showed up at my bail hearing and said something to the judge, and my bail
was reduced
to $500.00.  Is somebody trying to tell me something?,

     Oh well back to work, I built two more fuel implosion systems.  I
installed them in a
     1973 Olds Cutlass and  1966 Mustang. I painted my 1973 Dodge station
wagon bright yellow, with big red
letters  all over it saying . THIS CAR GETS OVER 100MPG. AND DOESN'T
POLLUTE THE AIR .
THE BIG BOYS ARE TRYING TO MAKE ME AND THIS CAR DISAPPEAR.  "HELP ME. "

     I only got to drive  my yellow wagon for 3 days,  On November 24,1986
Brockton Chief of police Richard Sprawls. and other members of the Brockton
police dept.raided my Tremont st.  home, they seized two shot guns, a 12 ga.
and a
20 ga. both  were legally registered to me. I used to use them for skeet
shooting. I
was arrested and charged with for trafficking of cocaine again. My bail was
revoked.
I was placed in max security in the Plymouth House of correction. I was now
sentenced to
15 yrs for  the July 1996 trafficking cocaine. and waiting for the second
trial for
the November.   I  knew where I could get some solid evidence that would
clear me. but I
didn't know  who to trust ANYMORE. so I Escaped from max security.   went
and got my
     solid evidence and gave it to the right person and surrendered the same
day.

     Boy I was lucky  they had over 240 law enforcement offers searching for
me with  guns dogs Helicopters and ect. I ran like a jack rabbit through the
woods, My advantage was the woods were my old hunting grounds.

     Two days later  Brockton's  Chief of police was arrested for STEELING
     COCAINE FORM THE POLICE EVIDENCE LOCKER. HE WAS
     SENTENCED TO TWO YEARS IN PRISON.

     REMEMBER THE COCAINE THAT CHIEF RICHARD SPRAWLS SAID HE FOUND AT
     MY HOME IN JULY AND NOVEMBER 1986. NOW I KNOW WHERE IT CAME FROM,
     THE POLICE EVIDENCE LOCKER, AND IT FELL OUT OF CHIEFS SPRAWLS POCKET
     ON TO THE FLOOR IN MY HOME WHERE ANOTHER BROCKTON POLICE OFFICER
     FOUND IT.

     Well the Massachusetts Supreme Court of Appeals. overturned my
     cocaine trafficking  conviction. grounds tainted evidence ,illegal
     search and seizure.

        FREEDOM AND HOME  HERE I COME . WRONG AGAIN..  HERE COMES THE FEDS.
THEY HAD A WARRANT FOR MY ARREST FOR VIOLATING

     A NEW GUN LAW THAT WAS PASSED ON NOVEMBER 24,1986. THAT WAS JUST 9
     DAYS AFTER MY ARREST OF  November 14,1986. Remember the Brockton police
     seized my two shot guns? Guess what?  I had the privilege   of being the
first person in
Massachusetts  and the 3rd  person in the United States Tried, Prosecuted
and Sentenced under this new law, USC 16921g and 924e.  I didn't stand a
chance, there was no case law in
the law books to support my defense of this new law.  I was sentenced to 2
5years for perjury. because when I bought the two shot  guns there was a box
that said were you ever convicted of a felony. I
checked the no  box, because I was never convicted of a felony, just a
mister meaner .
well the feds said under federal law my mister meaner was a felony,
therefore I was
guilty of 2 counts of perjury. they gave me 5 years on each count. Next I
got 5 years for being a convicted felon in possession of a fire arms. Now I
have been sentenced to a total of 15 years federal in federal
  prison with out parole. I am still sitting in the court rm. after a week of
trial, my attorney
said that the Us  attorney was trying me under the second part of the new
law, My attorney
said the trial will be short, won't last more that ten minutes. There was no
way!.

     Well it went like this.

     1: I was convicted as a felon in possession of a fire arm.

     2: I was convicted of perjury.

     3: I was convicted of a second count of perjury.

     BINGO I HIT THE JACK POT>

     USC18922g-e1 states If you have 3 Pryor felony convictions and have
possession of a fire arm then you are a ARMED Courier  Criminal and carries
a min.
mandatory sentence of 15 years with out parole.  Now I have a total of 30
years in federal prison with out parole. Well the feds have me tucked away
for 30 years where I cannot cause any more trouble with my fuel implosion
system.

      WRONG, WRONG, WRONG :

     I met a lot of powerful people in the federal prison, with powerful
connections on the
     out side, Kenny D. who son was a Patent Attorney for a large Patent law
firm, and who did our US patent.#5, 782,225. while I sat in the safety of
the federal prison system.

     Remember the feds sentenced me to 30 years with out parole.???  Well on
September 13,1997 ( Friday the 13th my lucky day)   I was released from
federal
with 5 years parole.  STOP something's wrong here.. I only did 10years of a
30 year
sentence, with  no chance of parole.

     Well it took the Federal courts to rule that It was legal for me to
possess the two shot guns . that they had no jurisdiction . the case is now
pending in the
1st district court. They will not rule on it.

     This September 2001 will be 5 years that I have been out of federal
prison. and have been a good boy nice and quit until now.

     My Intentions.

     In the past 5 years I found out that the oil companies will do
everything in their power to suppress this kind of technology because it
could reduce the gasoline
     consumption in the United states by 76% over a 5 year term.  The
government  will lose mega bucks in gasoline taxes.  The major car
manufactures will lose billions spent on the technology of
the fuel injection systems. My technology makes there obsolete.

     I put all my patent ,shop drawings up on the below web site. for anybody
to use. It is free!  I am 58
     1/2 years young now, the sand is running out of my hr glass fast.  I
don't want to take  this technology to my grave with me.

     If you think that I should get something out of this, then build my fuel
implosion system, and after your 5th tank of gas send me the price of a tank
of
gas other wise  I don't want a cent.  If you believe that me and my patent
and technology have been
suppressed. Then Go back to the home page and vote yes for this technology.
and tell
as many  people as you can about my story. and ask them to do the same.

     The reason I ask this is.

     I believe that millions of people around the globe want this kind of
technology. and knows it exists.  When we get enough people wanting this
technology, I have powerful
attorneys  who know and are able to present it to the courts of the globe .
      I will take my remaining 7 cars  that have my fuel implosion system in
them out of exile and drive them from Boston to California with the whole
world watching, which I think my chances of reaching California alive are
excellent.  For more information go to my web site www.get113to138mpg.com




     Thank you for your interest. "Please help me spread the word.
To make this technology available to the public globally vote yes on our web
site www.get113to138mpg.com
    Or if you will be one of those who oppose this type of technology vote no
for this technology.

     Sincerely

     Allen Caggiano
Please spread the word far and wide!
-- 

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Observation of underwater cities from ancient times is consistent with
Michael Mandeville's www.michaelmandeville.com proposed shift of the crust
about 12,000 yeas ago.  This idea also has other supporting evidence which
can be read in his book. While such a possibility is interesting, it has
particular importance to us at this time because he claims another shift may
occur in the near future.  Perhaps knowing the past, even the one so long
ago, has some meaning to us today.

Ed

"Dean T. Miller" wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 18:29:00 -0500, "Colin Quinney" <crquin home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Please.. tell us more.
>
> This topic, about sunken cities, isn't really relevant to "new" energy
> sources, but here are some WWW sites to visit.
>
> For the Cuba site:
>  http://www.earthfiles.com/earth303.htm
> http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/cuba_underwater.html
> http://www.andrewcollins.net/page/articles/lostcity.htm
> http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y01/feb01/12e7.htm
>
> For Okinawa:
> http://www.crystalinks.com/below.html and
> http://www.mozingodesigns.com/brainrape/html/japans_pyramid_pictures.html
> "One of the greatest discoveries in the history of archaeology was
> made last summer, off Japan.  There, spread over an amazing 311 miles
> on the ocean floor, are the well-preserved remains of an ancient city.
> Or at the very least, a number of closely related sites. "
>
> There are also underwater "cities" offshore from India and other
> places.
>
> -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<a href="http://www.michaelmandeville.com/phoenix/phoenix.htm"></a>&nbsp;<a href="http://www.michaelmandeville.com/phoenix/phoenix.htm"></a>
<p>Observation of underwater cities from ancient times is consistent with
Michael Mandeville's <a href="http://www.michaelmandeville.com/phoenix/phoenix.htm">www.michaelmandeville.com
</a>proposed shift of the crust about 12,000 yeas ago.&nbsp; This idea
also has other supporting evidence which can be read in his book. While
such a possibility is interesting, it has particular importance to us at
this time because he claims another shift may occur in the near future.&nbsp;
Perhaps knowing the past, even the one so long ago, has some meaning to
us today.
<p>Ed
<p>"Dean T. Miller" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 18:29:00 -0500, "Colin Quinney"
&lt;crquin home.com>
<br>wrote:
<p>>Please.. tell us more.
<p>This topic, about sunken cities, isn't really relevant to "new" energy
<br>sources, but here are some WWW sites to visit.
<p>For the Cuba site:
<br>&nbsp;<a href="http://www.earthfiles.com/earth303.htm">http://www.earthfiles.com/earth303.htm</a>
<br><a href="http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/cuba_underwater.html">http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/cuba_underwater.html</a>
<br><a href="http://www.andrewcollins.net/page/articles/lostcity.htm">http://www.andrewcollins.net/page/articles/lostcity.htm</a>
<br><a href="http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y01/feb01/12e7.htm">http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y01/feb01/12e7.htm</a>
<p>For Okinawa:
<br><a href="http://www.crystalinks.com/below.html">http://www.crystalinks.com/below.html</a>
and
<br><a href="http://www.mozingodesigns.com/brainrape/html/japans_pyramid_pictures.html">http://www.mozingodesigns.com/brainrape/html/japans_pyramid_pictures.html</a>
<br>"One of the greatest discoveries in the history of archaeology was
<br>made last summer, off Japan.&nbsp; There, spread over an amazing 311
miles
<br>on the ocean floor, are the well-preserved remains of an ancient city.
<br>Or at the very least, a number of closely related sites. "
<p>There are also underwater "cities" offshore from India and other
<br>places.
<p>-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF</blockquote>
</html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 22 14:27:42 2001
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On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> Unfortunately the science of physics is even worse off. It has been on
> the wrong course for almost a hundred years.

You need to elaborate on that. 

I don't see a problem with science, I see a problem with people getting
degrees that either give lip service to the principles of science or don't
even know what the principles of science ARE. "Science" is not taught as a
way to know the world, but as a collection of facts handed down to us by
"scientists". Isn't that the theme of Dr. Storms' post? I don't think he
meant to say that physics has been on the wrong course. 


> A few sporadic individuals
> are breaking with the consensus, but it will be a decade at least before
> the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

What house of cards?


> Both relativity and QM are based on false assumptions (though near
> enough to correct to yield valid results in most cases).

I don't think so. Please give specific examples. Relativity and QM have
been very successful theories in that you can use them to make accurate
predictions. The standard theory even more so. If the assumptions are
false, then what errors are they causing?

> The implication of this is that almost everyone is prepared to follow
> the status quo rather than the scientific method.

You observe, you form a theory, and then you test the theory to make
predictions, and see if the predictions are correct. The predictions are
correct. How is SR/GR & QM not following the scientific method?

Happy Thanksgiving!


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 22 15:58:01 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
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On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Colin Quinney wrote:

> Not only the errors of the last 100 years, but the vested interests in big
> oil and hot fusion research budgets. 

What errors? I agree that there is a bias against cold fusion, as to why
we can only speculate. There are other subjects which are not well
received either; but for the most part, much of the last 100 years of work
has been valid. It seems to me that the sins are one of omission rather
than advocating false facts.

> They put a damper on anything that
> threatens the status quo. Greed and fear cause double dealing when it comes
> to peer review. There is no set timetable for acceptance of the next
> paradigm shift. Unfortunately, it will probably take a crisis of major
> proportions, such as running out of oil..

I don't see how you can chalk it up to greed. There are many possible bad
reasons why cold fusion isn't accepted, and there are probably several at
work depending upon the "skeptic" or nay sayer involved.

> Meanwhile, I applaud those who continue with the research. Some of you face
> severe obstacles.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Colin Quinney
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 3:15 PM
> Subject: Re: A question of integrity
> 
> 
> > In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:10:24 -0600:
> > [snip]
> > >Another question comes to mind, "How universal is this
> > >willingness to ignore all of the basic teachings of science
> > >when evaluating claims?"  Is the entire scientific
> > [snip]
> > Hi Ed,
> >
> > I'm afraid it's almost all pervasive. When you take a close look at
> > astronomy and other space related sciences, you will see that the whole
> > lot is a house of cards based on one tenuous assumption after another.
> > Unfortunately the science of physics is even worse off. It has been on
> > the wrong course for almost a hundred years. A few sporadic individuals
> > are breaking with the consensus, but it will be a decade at least before
> > the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
> > Both relativity and QM are based on false assumptions (though near
> > enough to correct to yield valid results in most cases).
> >
> > The implication of this is that almost everyone is prepared to follow
> > the status quo rather than the scientific method.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Robin van Spaandonk
> >
> > http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> >
> > ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> >
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.298 / Virus Database: 161 - Release Date: 11/15/2001
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 22 20:49:51 2001
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Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 22:42:41 +0000
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Subject: Re: Need 6GHz
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At 04:28 PM 11/22/01 +1300, you wrote:

>I need 6Ghz to inject into a caduceus coil.
>And ideas?

Got an old radar detector?


_________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 22 22:37:00 2001
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Subject: Fwd: [svpvril] Scientists build tiny computer from DNA
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Fwd: [svpvril] Scientists build tiny computer from
DNA</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="+2"><b>Scientists build tiny
computer from DNA</b></font><br>
<font size="+2"><b></b></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>LONDON (Reuters) - Following Mother
Nature's lead, Israeli scientists have built a DNA computer so tiny
that a trillion of them could fit in a test tube and perform a billion
operations per second with 99.8 percent accuracy.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Instead of using figures and formulas to
solve a problem, the microscopic computer's input, output and software
are made up of DNA molecules -- which store and process encoded
information in living organisms.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Scientists see such DNA computers as
future competitors to for their more conventional cousins because
miniaturisation is reaching its limits and DNA has the potential to be
much faster than conventional computers.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&quot;We have built a nanoscale computer
made of biomolecules that is so small you cannot run them one at a
time. When a trillion computers run together they are capable of
performing a billion operations,&quot; Professor Ehud Shapiro of the
Weizmann Institute in Israel told Reuters on Wednesday.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>It is the first programmable autonomous
computing machine in which the input, output, software and hardware
are all made of biomolecules.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Although too simple to have any immediate
applications it could form the basis of a DNA computer in the future
that could potentially operate within human cells and act as a
monitoring device to detect potentially disease-causing changes and
synthesise drugs to fix them.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>The model could also form the basis of
computers that could be used to screen DNA libraries in parallel
without sequencing each molecule, which could speed up the acquisition
of knowledge about DNA.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>ENORMOUS POTENTIAL<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>DNA can hold more information in a cubic
centimetre than a trillion CDs. The double helix molecule that
contains human genes stores data on four chemical bases -- known by
the letters A, T, C and G -- giving it massive memory capability that
scientists are only just beginning to tap into.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&quot;The living cell contains incredible
molecular machines that manipulate information-encoding molecules such
as DNA and RNA (its chemical cousin) in ways that are fundamentally
very similar to computation,&quot; said Shapiro, the head of the
research team that developed the DNA computer.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&quot;Since we don't know how to
effectively modify these machines or create new ones just yet, the
trick is to find naturally existing machines that, when combined, can
be steered to actually compute,&quot; he added.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Writing in the science journal Nature,
Shapiro and his team describe their DNA computer, which is a molecular
model of one of the simplest computing machines -- the automaton which
can answer certain yes or no questions.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Data is represented by pairs of molecules
on a strand of DNA and two naturally occurring enzymes act as the
hardware to read, copy and manipulate the code.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>When it is all mixed together in the test
tube, the software and hardware operate on the input molecule to
create the output.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>The DNA computer also has a very low
energy consumption, so if it is put inside the cell it would not
require much energy to work.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>DNA computing is a very young branch of
science that started less than a decade ago, when Leonard Adleman of
the University of Southern California pioneered the field by using DNA
in a test tube to solve a mathematical problem.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Scientists around the globe are now
trying to marry computer technology and biology by using nature's own
design to process information.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><a
href="http://in.news.yahoo.com/011121/107/199x5.html"
>http://in.news.yahoo.com/011121/107/199x5.html</a><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<x-sigsep><pre>-- 
</pre></x-sigsep>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 23 09:32:20 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Nov 23, 2001
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 08:07:25 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 23 Nov 01   Washington, DC

1. MISSILE DEFENSE: THERE MAY BE A PROBLEM WITH EARLY DEPLOYMENT.
The space-based infrared systems that are supposed to detect the
launch of missiles aimed at the U.S., currently under development
by Lockheed, are over cost and three years behind schedule.  The
interceptor made by Raytheon and the booster rocket developed by
Boeing both have problems.  According to the Wall Street Journal, 
a Ballistic Missile Defense Organization spokesman shrugged that,
"We'll make do with what we have."  Meanwhile, officials from the
Air Force and Lockheed are said to be looking at "restructuring
the contract" to make sure Lockheed doesn't lose any money.

2. REMOTE VIEWING: OSAMA BIN LADEN CAN RUN, BUT HE CAN'T HIDE. 
According to The Sunday Times (UK), investigators at the FBI and
CIA were told to "think outside the box in tracking down Bin
Laden".  They did.  They reactivated the CIA's "remote viewing"
program, which was abandoned as useless in 1995 after 20 years(WN
1 Dec 95).  At one point during the cold war, the viewers were
asked to help locate Soviet nuclear subs.  They could see them in
the water, but couldn't tell which ocean.  Nor were they ever
quite able to read documents they said they could see on Kremlin
desks.  What would you bet they can see Bin Laden in a cave?

3. SELF-CARE: THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION PICKS A NEW CHIEF.
Michael Maves previously headed the Consumer Healthcare Products
Association, a lobbying organization for nonprescription medicine
and dietary supplement producers.  That a long-time lobbyist for
the self-care industry should be picked to head the organization
of those who write the prescriptions is a major irony.  

4. THE WAR ON TERRORISM: THE HOUSE TAKES STRONG ACTION.  The
House has passed a resolution expressing the sense of Congress
that, during this time of struggle against the forces of
international terrorism, sufficient time should be set aside by
schools to allow children to pray for the Nation.           

5. MASS MEDIA FELLOWSHIPS: APPLICATIONS INVITED FOR SUMMER 2002.
The public must know we live in an orderly universe governed by
natural laws that cannot be circumvented by cleverness or piety. 
To this end, APS supports a ten-week summer fellowship to allow
physics students to work full-time as reporters, researchers or
production assistants in a mass media organization.  Priority
will be given to graduate students in physics or closely related
fields.  The deadline is 15 January 2002.  Details at
http://www.aps.org/public_affairs/Media.html 

6. NASA: MAYBE DAN DOESN'T READ WHAT'S NEW?  Dan Goldin just sent
me an American flag that's been on the ISS, to thank me for all
my help.  Maybe my writing isn't clear enough.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 23 18:19:21 2001
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Subject: Re: Fwd: [svpvril] Scientists build tiny computer from DNA
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At 12:34 AM 11/23/01 -0600, you wrote:


>>Scientists build tiny computer from DNA
>>LONDON (Reuters) - Following Mother Nature's lead, Israeli scientists 
>>have built a DNA computer so tiny that a trillion of them could fit in a 
>>test tube and perform a billion operations per second with 99.8 percent 
>>accuracy.


Um.. correct me if I am wrong...   Is that about twenty million errors a 
second?  Impressive ;-)

Sort of like running Windows!



_________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 23 18:33:08 2001
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Only two million errors per second ;)

At 21:17 2001-11-23, you wrote:
>At 12:34 AM 11/23/01 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>>>Scientists build tiny computer from DNA
>>>LONDON (Reuters) - Following Mother Nature's lead, Israeli scientists have built a DNA computer so tiny that a trillion of them could fit in a test tube and perform a billion operations per second with 99.8 percent accuracy.
>
>
>Um.. correct me if I am wrong...   Is that about twenty million errors a second?  Impressive ;-)
>
>Sort of like running Windows!
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 23 19:03:47 2001
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Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 22:00:53 -0500
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Subject: BBC News | SCI/TECH | Particle physics telescope explodes
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1664000/1664447.stm

Monday, 19 November, 2001, 12:49 GMT
Particle physics telescope explodes
By BBC News Online science editor Dr David Whitehouse

One of the world's leading particle physics instruments has been
severely damaged in an accident.

The underground Super-Kamiokande Observatory in Japan detects elusive
neutrino particles from space by using photomultiplier tubes to register
the flashes of light they produce when they pass through a huge tank of
water.

On 12 November, one of the photomultiplier tubes exploded causing a
chain reaction that resulted in most of the other 11,200 light detectors
also blowing up.

Scientists say the accident is a major setback, as Super-Kamiokande has
produced spectacular results, helping to answer long-standing questions
about the Universe. Super-Kamiokande was the very first detector to
establish that neutrinos can change into different types.

It was also one of the first detectors to help establish a mass for
neutrinos.

'We will rebuild the detector'

Officials are still trying to determine what happened, and why the
explosion of a single photomultiplier tube should have resulted in the
destruction of most of the rest.

One British physicist told BBC News Online that he was puzzled why a
single event could have such devastating consequences. "Questions should
be asked," he said.

Commenting on the disaster the director of the observatory, Yoji
Totsuka, said: "As a director of the Kamioka Observatory, which owns and
is responsible to operate and maintain the Super-Kamiokande detector, it
is really sad that I have to announce the severe accident that occurred
on 12 November and damaged the significant part of the detector."

He added: "We will rebuild the detector. There is no question."

Big task

Koichiro Nishikawa, a spokesman for the K2K experiment, which uses the
observatory, has released another statement.

He said: "On behalf of the K2K experiment, I thank all the concern
expressed on the accident at Super-Kamiokande. K2K will fully support
the Kamioka Observatory and will put the first priority on the recovery
of Super-Kamiokande as early as possible."

Technically it is not very difficult to repair the detector but
logistically it is a major problem.

50,000 tonnes of super-pure water will have to be pumped out and the
debris from the shattered tubes removed. Then thousands of new detectors
will have to be fitted and tested, and then the water replaced.

The telescope will be rebuilt

It is a task that will take at least a year. Officials say that they
will take the opportunity to modify the detector, in particular to
reduce the number of the photomultiplier tubes by about a half.

They say this will not affect the detector's performance and will make
another mishap less likely.

The observatory achieved a major goal in 1998 when it found evidence
that neutrinos can change from one type into another on their way
through the Earth.

The main emphasis recently has been to study this phenomenon with
neutrinos produced by an accelerator at the KEK laboratory, 250
kilometres from the Kamioka Observatory and beamed through the Earth
towards it (hence the name K2K for the experiment).

The aim will be to resume this experiment as soon as possible, possibly
within a year.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 23 19:21:15 2001
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Subject: Re: Fwd: [svpvril] Scientists build tiny computer from DNA
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Serves me right for learning to use a slide rule :-)

At 03:32 AM 11/24/01 +0100, you wrote:

>Only two million errors per second ;)
>
>At 21:17 2001-11-23, you wrote:
> >At 12:34 AM 11/23/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>Scientists build tiny computer from DNA
> >>>LONDON (Reuters) - Following Mother Nature's lead, Israeli scientists 
> have built a DNA computer so tiny that a trillion of them could fit in a 
> test tube and perform a billion operations per second with 99.8 percent 
> accuracy.
> >
> >
> >Um.. correct me if I am wrong...   Is that about twenty million errors a 
> second?  Impressive ;-)
> >
> >Sort of like running Windows!
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 24 11:21:28 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
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Yup, here's the probable cause:

"...alterations to cerebration systems..."

But where's the web site where all is revealed?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 24 15:38:22 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:34:33 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <3ib00uobki60v7ckh2m206j6jgvio28cm5 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 22 Nov 2001 14:13:22 -0600:
[snip]
>> There are also underwater "cities" offshore from India and other
>> places.
[snip]
Which might explain the various "flood" stories that crop up in many
cultures.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 24 15:57:22 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:55:58 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Stephen Lajoie's message of Thu, 22 Nov 2001 14:24:41
-0800:

>On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately the science of physics is even worse off. It has been on
>> the wrong course for almost a hundred years.
>
>You need to elaborate on that. 

Yes, I was going out on a limb a bit, and I thought someone would call
me on it. :)

>
>I don't see a problem with science, I see a problem with people getting
>degrees that either give lip service to the principles of science or don't
>even know what the principles of science ARE. "Science" is not taught as a
>way to know the world, but as a collection of facts handed down to us by
>"scientists". Isn't that the theme of Dr. Storms' post? I don't think he
>meant to say that physics has been on the wrong course.

I don't think he meant that either, but I did mean that.
I agree with the rest of your statement above, with the proviso, that by
science you mean the scientific method. There is nothing wrong with the
method, it's just the execution that gets all messed up.
 
>
>
>> A few sporadic individuals
>> are breaking with the consensus, but it will be a decade at least before
>> the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
>
>What house of cards?

The standard model of physics, QM, the big bang, the nature of the
vacuum, the red shift, Hubble constant, etc. etc.

>
>
>> Both relativity and QM are based on false assumptions (though near
>> enough to correct to yield valid results in most cases).
>
>I don't think so. Please give specific examples. Relativity and QM have
>been very successful theories in that you can use them to make accurate
>predictions. The standard theory even more so. If the assumptions are
>false, then what errors are they causing?

The first false assumption is that the speed of information transmission
is limited to the speed of transmission of transverse electromagnetic
waves.
(Implicit herein the assumption that this is the only possible means of
transferring information).
The link between gravity, the vacuum  and EM is not yet clear (at least
where public knowledge is concerned), this points to major gaps in our
understanding of nature.

>
>> The implication of this is that almost everyone is prepared to follow
>> the status quo rather than the scientific method.
>
>You observe, you form a theory, and then you test the theory to make
>predictions, and see if the predictions are correct. 

Yes, that's the method.

>The predictions are
>correct. 

I think close examination will reveal that the predictions frequently
are not correct, and that some form of correction or adjustment of the
formulae based on actual results is needed in order to get "the right
answer".

>How is SR/GR & QM not following the scientific method?

Theories don't follow a method, people do (or don't, as the case may
be).

One of the primary problems with the standard theory IMO, is the
assumption that the electron is a point particle.
This is what gives rise to some of the infinities that Dirac pointed out
were being ignored because they were inconvenient.

>
>Happy Thanksgiving!
>
We don't have Thanksgiving in Australia ;)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 24 23:41:15 2001
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On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Stephen Lajoie's message of Thu, 22 Nov 2001 14:24:41
> -0800:
> >
> >> A few sporadic individuals
> >> are breaking with the consensus, but it will be a decade at least before
> >> the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
> >
> >What house of cards?
> 
> The standard model of physics, QM, the big bang, the nature of the
> vacuum, the red shift, Hubble constant, etc. etc.
> 
> >
> >
> >> Both relativity and QM are based on false assumptions (though near
> >> enough to correct to yield valid results in most cases).
> >
> >I don't think so. Please give specific examples. Relativity and QM have
> >been very successful theories in that you can use them to make accurate
> >predictions. The standard theory even more so. If the assumptions are
> >false, then what errors are they causing?
> 
> The first false assumption is that the speed of information transmission
> is limited to the speed of transmission of transverse electromagnetic
> waves.

That is not an assumption, but is derived. The experimental observation is
that all observers will measure the speed of light to be the same
regardless of the speed of the observer. There is no assumption involved,
unless the observation itself is considered the assumption.

> (Implicit herein the assumption that this is the only possible means of
> transferring information).

I can't think of any way to move information besides EM. Even driving mass
is electromagnetic at the atomic level. What other possible ways are
there if energy or mass is not involved?

> The link between gravity, the vacuum  and EM is not yet clear (at least
> where public knowledge is concerned), this points to major gaps in our
> understanding of nature.

You point out that our knowledge is incomplete, and then you conclude that
SR/GR is wrong? It's a theory, we can assume it's wrong. We can conclude
that everything we know is in some measure wrong. Theories are, however,
as good as their predictions, and the predictions of SR and GR are fairly
good on the large scale. It is still the best theory.

> >> The implication of this is that almost everyone is prepared to follow
> >> the status quo rather than the scientific method.
> >
> >You observe, you form a theory, and then you test the theory to make
> >predictions, and see if the predictions are correct. 
> 
> Yes, that's the method.
> 
> >The predictions are
> >correct. 
> 
> I think close examination will reveal that the predictions frequently
> are not correct, and that some form of correction or adjustment of the
> formulae based on actual results is needed in order to get "the right
> answer".

Examples where SR/GR fails are what?

> >How is SR/GR & QM not following the scientific method?
> 
> Theories don't follow a method, people do (or don't, as the case may
> be).

I think there is a conceptual failure here. Good scientist don't "follow"
anything. They use the theory to predict, and are ever hopeful of finding
cases where the predictions fail. Only in finding where the predictions
fail do you find the clues for an improved theory.

> One of the primary problems with the standard theory IMO, is the
> assumption that the electron is a point particle.

I don't think it says that. You take an intergral around the particle and
assume the particle is in the volume. 


> This is what gives rise to some of the infinities that Dirac pointed out
> were being ignored because they were inconvenient.
> 
> >
> >Happy Thanksgiving!
> >
> We don't have Thanksgiving in Australia ;)

Have a happy one anyway. :-) Can't hurt. 

> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 25 17:57:16 2001
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Yeah yeah, we're not supposed to spread warnings about "horrible new
viruses".  But today I received about 20 messages from peoples' infected
computers, and the Norton page says that the new worm was only discovered
yesterday.  It spreads fast because it can use some versions of MS Outlook
to run itself when viewed (without the victim having to open the infected
attachments.)  Looks like another "Sircam"-like plague is about to hit the
fan.  Please update your antivirus files, people.  Or (if you're using
Windows and Outlook) just be very wary of incoming email messages where
the message size is 40K or thereabouts.  See: 

 http://www.sarc.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.badtrans.b mm.html
 http://vil.nai.com/vil/virusSummary.asp?virus_k=99069
 http://www.sophos.com/virusinfo/analyses/w32badtransb.html

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 25 21:49:56 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:46:35 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Stephen Lajoie's message of Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:37:57
-0800:
[snip]
>> The first false assumption is that the speed of information transmission
>> is limited to the speed of transmission of transverse electromagnetic
>> waves.
>
>That is not an assumption, but is derived. 

Einstein assumed the speed of light as the maximum speed at which any
object could travel, when he developed the ST. Since then everyone else
has jumped on the band wagon, and assumed that absolutely nothing could
travel faster than light, including information. There is however some
evidence to suggest that this isn't so.

>The experimental observation is
>that all observers will measure the speed of light to be the same
>regardless of the speed of the observer. There is no assumption involved,
>unless the observation itself is considered the assumption.

How many actual measurements of the speed of light do you know of where
the observer was travelling at a sufficiently significant % of the speed
of light for this to be noticeable?

>
>> (Implicit herein the assumption that this is the only possible means of
>> transferring information).
>
>I can't think of any way to move information besides EM. 

A couple have been patented. Personally, I suspect that a longitudinal
electric wave probably travels considerably faster than light.

>Even driving mass
>is electromagnetic at the atomic level. What other possible ways are
>there if energy or mass is not involved?

See above.

>
>> The link between gravity, the vacuum  and EM is not yet clear (at least
>> where public knowledge is concerned), this points to major gaps in our
>> understanding of nature.
>
>You point out that our knowledge is incomplete, and then you conclude that
>SR/GR is wrong? It's a theory, we can assume it's wrong. 

Isn't that what I said at the beginning?

>We can conclude
>that everything we know is in some measure wrong. Theories are, however,
>as good as their predictions, and the predictions of SR and GR are fairly
>good on the large scale. It is still the best theory.

It is still a fairly good theory. There are a couple of others that I
would give the time day.
[snip]
>> I think close examination will reveal that the predictions frequently
>> are not correct, and that some form of correction or adjustment of the
>> formulae based on actual results is needed in order to get "the right
>> answer".
>
>Examples where SR/GR fails are what?

See Infinite Energy Vol. 7 Issue 38, 2001 (the whole issue).
IMO there is no such thing as a singularity. Also, I think that
eventually they will be forced to admit that the concept of
"entanglement" is utter rubbish.

>
>> >How is SR/GR & QM not following the scientific method?
>> 
>> Theories don't follow a method, people do (or don't, as the case may
>> be).
>
>I think there is a conceptual failure here. Good scientist don't "follow"
>anything. They use the theory to predict, and are ever hopeful of finding
>cases where the predictions fail. Only in finding where the predictions
>fail do you find the clues for an improved theory.

Yes, but many are not good scientists.

>
>> One of the primary problems with the standard theory IMO, is the
>> assumption that the electron is a point particle.
>
>I don't think it says that. You take an intergral around the particle and
>assume the particle is in the volume. 

Try convincing PZ that it isn't a point particle :)
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 26 07:47:47 2001
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See:

http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 26 07:48:53 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: BBC News | SCI/TECH | Particle physics telescope explodes
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ralph muha wrote:

Particle physics telescope explodes
>By BBC News Online science editor Dr David Whitehouse
>
>One of the world's leading particle physics instruments has been
>severely damaged in an accident.
>
>The underground Super-Kamiokande Observatory in Japan detects elusive 
>neutrino particles from space . . .

This was front page news in Japan, although I have not seen much follow up. 
I did not get a chance to report it here.

The Kamiokande Observatory played a role in the early history of cold 
fusion. Steve Jones botched an experiment there. There was some evidence of 
neutrons from the experiment despite his amateur mistakes.


>On 12 November, one of the photomultiplier tubes exploded causing a
>chain reaction that resulted in most of the other 11,200 light detectors
>also blowing up.

It sounds like the Bad Guy Secret Headquarters in a James Bond movie. You 
press one button, trigger a chain reaction, and the whole place collapses 
like a house of cards. I have heard that some large scientific experimental 
apparatuses work badly because they are designed by theoreticians instead 
of engineers.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 26 08:47:59 2001
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Subject: Re: BBC News | SCI/TECH | Particle physics telescope explodes
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> ralph muha wrote:
> 
> Particle physics telescope explodes
> >By BBC News Online science editor Dr David Whitehouse
> >
> >One of the world's leading particle physics instruments has been
> >severely damaged in an accident.
> >
> >The underground Super-Kamiokande Observatory in Japan detects elusive 
> >neutrino particles from space . . .
> 
> This was front page news in Japan, although I have not seen much follow up. 
> I did not get a chance to report it here.
> 
> The Kamiokande Observatory played a role in the early history of cold 
> fusion. Steve Jones botched an experiment there. There was some evidence of 
> neutrons from the experiment despite his amateur mistakes.

You guys talking about this?
http://www.phys.washington.edu/~jeff/courses/588A/skstatus-011116/
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 26 08:52:48 2001
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
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On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, William Beaty wrote:

 
>  It spreads fast because it can use some versions of MS Outlook
> to run itself when viewed (without the victim having to open the infected
> attachments.)

I've had it with Micorsoft. Unix had anticipated and worked out the
problems with this, and Microsoft went ahead and made a virus enhanced
operating system. They can't say they didn't know, they knew about Unix.
It appears their motivation was to make it possible to force unwanted
advertising on the computer user.

When are people going to wake up and switch to linux? I have my system on
dual boot; unfortunatly, I need Windows for Mathcad and similar programs.
I'm not buying that Windows XP, that's just gasoline on the fire.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 26 11:15:26 2001
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Subject: Re: A question of integrity
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Stephen Lajoie's message of Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:37:57
> -0800:
> [snip]
> >> The first false assumption is that the speed of information transmission
> >> is limited to the speed of transmission of transverse electromagnetic
> >> waves.
> >
> >That is not an assumption, but is derived. 
> 
> Einstein assumed the speed of light as the maximum speed at which any
> object could travel,

He didn't assume that. He took the MM experiment at face value in that it
indicated that an observer in motion would measure the speed of light to
be the same regardless of his velocity. From that, he was able to derive
that no mass or energy could move faster than light. The derivation
involved showing that it would require infinate energy (not the magazine)
to reach the speed of light. 

> when he developed the ST. Since then everyone else
> has jumped on the band wagon, and assumed that absolutely nothing could
> travel faster than light, including information. There is however some
> evidence to suggest that this isn't so.

Again, there was no assumption. The information clause was supportive of
the limit on speed of mass and energy and was consistant with causality. 
 
> >The experimental observation is
> >that all observers will measure the speed of light to be the same
> >regardless of the speed of the observer. There is no assumption involved,
> >unless the observation itself is considered the assumption.
> 
> How many actual measurements of the speed of light do you know of where
> the observer was travelling at a sufficiently significant % of the speed
> of light for this to be noticeable?

The Michelson Morely experiment has been repeated many times. The whole
point of the experiment is that it can detect such differences. Yes, it is
noticeable. 

> >> (Implicit herein the assumption that this is the only possible means of
> >> transferring information).
> >
> >I can't think of any way to move information besides EM. 
> 
> A couple have been patented. Personally, I suspect that a longitudinal
> electric wave probably travels considerably faster than light.

Perhaps I suspect that it doesn't. 

> >Even driving mass
> >is electromagnetic at the atomic level. What other possible ways are
> >there if energy or mass is not involved?
> 
> See above.
> 
> >
> >> The link between gravity, the vacuum  and EM is not yet clear (at least
> >> where public knowledge is concerned), this points to major gaps in our
> >> understanding of nature.
> >
> >You point out that our knowledge is incomplete, and then you conclude that
> >SR/GR is wrong? It's a theory, we can assume it's wrong. 
> 
> Isn't that what I said at the beginning?

You said it was a house of cards. It appears to be a well thought out and
tested theory, with few problems in it's predictions. 
 
> >We can conclude
> >that everything we know is in some measure wrong. Theories are, however,
> >as good as their predictions, and the predictions of SR and GR are fairly
> >good on the large scale. It is still the best theory.
> 
> It is still a fairly good theory. There are a couple of others that I
> would give the time day.

?!?

> [snip]
> >> I think close examination will reveal that the predictions frequently
> >> are not correct, and that some form of correction or adjustment of the
> >> formulae based on actual results is needed in order to get "the right
> >> answer".
> >
> >Examples where SR/GR fails are what?
> 
> See Infinite Energy Vol. 7 Issue 38, 2001 (the whole issue).
> IMO there is no such thing as a singularity. Also, I think that
> eventually they will be forced to admit that the concept of
> "entanglement" is utter rubbish.
 
E&M, and therefore relativity, do not assume a point particle. They use a
guassian surface and state that the particle is in the surface somewhere. 
It is pointed out that if you do assume a point particle, that you get
garbage for the energy of the electric field.

I don't know of any theory which assumes a point particle or allows a
signularity. Point particles and sigularities are often conceptual
approximations to a problem in order to simplify, but are not essential to
the theory itself.

I have not studied entanglement and thus, will not comment on it. 

I don't receive Infinite Energy anymore. While cold fusion does stand up
to scrutiny under the scientific method, many of the articles in IE did
not. The fact that there exist a P&F effect does not mean that every claim
of Cold fusion is valid, nor does it open the flood gates for every claim
of something new. 


> >> >How is SR/GR & QM not following the scientific method?
> >> 
> >> Theories don't follow a method, people do (or don't, as the case may
> >> be).
> >
> >I think there is a conceptual failure here. Good scientist don't "follow"
> >anything. They use the theory to predict, and are ever hopeful of finding
> >cases where the predictions fail. Only in finding where the predictions
> >fail do you find the clues for an improved theory.
> 
> Yes, but many are not good scientists.

I've no dispute with that. Some people are very skilled at what they do,
and in their narrow field, are quite expert. I would point out that many
people who become scientist make the mistake of not distinguishing between
their scientific findings from their personal opinions, and expect their
personal opinions to carry the weight of their findings. 

Putting on my engineering hat, I know the importance of not venturing a
personal opinion as fact. While scientist can do so with near impunity,
engineers can be sued for passing off opinion as engineering. (If they are
a PE)

> >> One of the primary problems with the standard theory IMO, is the
> >> assumption that the electron is a point particle.
> >
> >I don't think it says that. You take an intergral around the particle and
> >assume the particle is in the volume. 
> 
> Try convincing PZ that it isn't a point particle :)

Who is PZ?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 26 11:47:15 2001
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:43:54 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>The Michelson Morely experiment has been repeated many times. The whole 
>point of the experiment is that it can detect such differences. Yes, it is 
>noticeable.

I expect the M&M results were correct, and special relativity has been 
confirmed by several other methods, but in point of fact this experiment 
was NOT repeated many times. It was repeated only once, as far as I know, 
by Dayton Miller in the early 1920s, who used a much better apparatus. His 
experiment won the 1925 AAAS national prize in physics. It contradicted 
M&M's result. Miller observed clear evidence that there is a difference in 
the speed of light from different stars, in a good fit with the aether wind 
hypothesis. Einstein and others agreed this was a good experiment. However, 
special relativity became popular, and very useful as a tool. Other 
evidence for the theory accumulated. Gradually, the Miller research was 
forgotten. In 1955 a team re-analyzed Miller's results and came to the 
tentative conclusion that his apparatus was affected by temperature.

This is described in H. Collins, T. Pinch, "The Golem," p. 39 - 43. If this 
account is correct, I would say this aspect of the theory remains unsettled.

- Jed

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After reading the following article, more of us might join the club of Stephen Lajoie...

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1436-2001Nov22.html>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1436-2001Nov22.html 


At 17:51 2001-11-26, Stephen Lajoie you wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, William Beaty wrote:
>
> 
>>  It spreads fast because it can use some versions of MS Outlook
>> to run itself when viewed (without the victim having to open the infected
>> attachments.)
>
>I've had it with Micorsoft. Unix had anticipated and worked out the
>problems with this, and Microsoft went ahead and made a virus enhanced
>operating system. They can't say they didn't know, they knew about Unix.
>It appears their motivation was to make it possible to force unwanted
>advertising on the computer user.
>
>When are people going to wake up and switch to linux? I have my system on
>dual boot; unfortunatly, I need Windows for Mathcad and similar programs.
>I'm not buying that Windows XP, that's just gasoline on the fire.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 26 13:10:46 2001
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> >The Michelson Morely experiment has been repeated many times. The whole 
> >point of the experiment is that it can detect such differences. Yes, it is 
> >noticeable.
> 
> I expect the M&M results were correct, and special relativity has been 
> confirmed by several other methods, but in point of fact this experiment 
> was NOT repeated many times. It was repeated only once, as far as I know, 
> by Dayton Miller in the early 1920s, who used a much better apparatus. His 

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/RelWWW/tests.html

Also, I believe you will find that many of the laser gyro's wouldn't work
if the speed of light was not constant. 


> experiment won the 1925 AAAS national prize in physics. It contradicted 
> M&M's result. Miller observed clear evidence that there is a difference in 
> the speed of light from different stars, in a good fit with the aether wind 
> hypothesis. Einstein and others agreed this was a good experiment. However, 
> special relativity became popular, and very useful as a tool. Other 
> evidence for the theory accumulated. Gradually, the Miller research was 
> forgotten. In 1955 a team re-analyzed Miller's results and came to the 
> tentative conclusion that his apparatus was affected by temperature.

Yes. So why even bring it up?
 
> This is described in H. Collins, T. Pinch, "The Golem," p. 39 - 43. If this 
> account is correct, I would say this aspect of the theory remains unsettled.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 26 14:05:16 2001
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:59:39 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

> > . . . In 1955 a team re-analyzed Miller's results and came to the
> > tentative conclusion that his apparatus was affected by temperature.
>
>Yes. So why even bring it up?

Two reasons:

1. You wrote, "the Michelson Morely experiment has been repeated many 
times." As far as I know, it was only repeated once, not many times, and 
the results contradicted special relativity. Do you know of other 
repetitions? Later tests with masers and lasers may not address the issue, 
because the light does not originate in distant stars. Apparently there 
were some tests with other techniques, but in 1933 Miller pointed out the 
differences and errors in these techniques and showed that they should not 
have worked, according to the aether hypothesis.

2. An analysis performed by other scientists 30 years after the original 
work hardly qualifies as strong evidence either way. At best, we can say 
the question is still open, and Miller did not definitively disprove this 
aspect of special relativity. He surely did weaken it, and no one, as yet, 
has repaired the damage.

More to the point, did these other scientists examine or retest the actual 
apparatus? Did it exist, and was it in working order? Did they subject it 
to temperature differences, observe an error, then remove the differences 
and measure stellar light again? I do not know, but given the circumstances 
I suppose they performed only a "paper analysis" -- a.k.a. glorified 
guesswork. It would take years to really prove the temperature hypothesis. 
I put little stock in "paper" explorations. The laboratory is the only 
place where a scientific question is truly answered. People have often done 
paper analyses looking for errors in cold fusion. They always find errors, 
but such analyses have no merit, and can safely be ignored. I do not know 
of a single instance in which significant flaws -- or important new 
positive information -- was revealed years after a CF experiment by someone 
from outside the lab.

In other cases, experiments in progress have been critiqued by 
knowledgeable, experienced experimentalists, and interesting questions 
asked, which resulted in better revised papers and improved experiments. I 
know this occurs because I have seen it happen, and occasionally even 
mediated the exchange and suggested ways to rewrite the papers.

Melich & Hansen worked years after the experiment ended, analyzing the 
Harwell data, and they revealed very important new facts about it. But they 
went into the lab. (Literally -- they went to the U.K. and visited the 
lab.) The researchers cooperated with them completely, showing them the 
complete old data sets and instruments.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 26 14:39:47 2001
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> > > . . . In 1955 a team re-analyzed Miller's results and came to the
> > > tentative conclusion that his apparatus was affected by temperature.
> >
> >Yes. So why even bring it up?
> 
> Two reasons:
> 
> 1. You wrote, "the Michelson Morely experiment has been repeated many 
> times." As far as I know, it was only repeated once, not many times, and 
> the results contradicted special relativity. Do you know of other 
> repetitions?

Yes, I was a passive listener to this debate before. There are at least 12
replications of the experiment, with on a couple of results indicating a
change in the speed of light.

As my cite notes, there are several working devices that depend upon this
principle, so you could say that it is reproven every day. This is the
"waterheater" of SR/GR.

Well, my master's project will depend upon the speed of light being
constant and relativity being in good order. :-) Good luck in you're
attempts to refute Einstein's SR/GR. Doing so will be very exciting. 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 26 15:34:26 2001
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On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Dickenson wrote:

> Bill,
> 
> Thanks for the note.  I was not yet aware of this one...


Heh.  You WILL be.   This one forges the return address, so you can't warn
the people with the infected computers.   That, plus its "auto execute"
feature, is going get it into newspaper headlines this week.  I'd even
predict that it brings hotmail and yahoo mail to its knees.

Besides updating antivirus files, anyone who uses MS Outlook must download
a security patch from microsoft: stops viruses from auto-executing an
attached file and running themselves:

  http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/security/bulletin/MS01-020.asp


>  http://www.antivirus.com/vinfo/virusencyclo/default5.asp?VName=WORM_BADTRANS.B
>  http://www.sarc.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.badtrans.b mm.html
>  http://vil.nai.com/vil/virusSummary.asp?virus_k=99069
>  http://www.sophos.com/virusinfo/analyses/w32badtransb.html

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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	Apologies to all who I confused. I wrote that message in a hurry
to get home. It should have said face-centered-cubic (fcc), with a
starting lattice constant of 3.891 Angstroms. This is the distance between
adjacent corners of the cube. The distance to the center of a face was
2.751 Angstroms. This was the structure I started with. When it relaxed,
it expanded to 4.086 Angstroms on a side, and 2.8894 to the center of a
face. There are (8*1/8) + (6*1/2) atoms in the unit crystal. (Each corner
is shared with 8 adjacent unit cells, hence 1/8, and there are 8 corners 
in the unit cell. Similarly, each face is shared with 2 adjacent cells,
and there are 6 faces to the unit cell.) Thus a unit cell of fcc structure
contains 4 atoms. The total energy represents the energy to create a unit
cell out of individual Pd atoms brought in from infinity. The PdH crystal
is also fcc, with lattice 4.082 Angstroms, and binding energy per Hydrogen
atom -11.8597/4 Hydrogens = -2.965 eV.  The crystal has a H atom in
between 2 Pd atoms on all 12 sides of the crystal, and also at the very
center.

	Ed, I also ran a PdH2 hybrid, with the result of an approximately 
trigonal structure of the Pd, a=4.633 Angstroms, b=4.588, c=4.515,
alpha=82.726 degrees, beta=83.022, gamma= 83.181. It had a binding energy
of -17.4082 eV/8 Hydrogens = -2.176 eV. The relaxed crystal had the
Hydrogens spaced about 1.8 Angstroms and 2.99 Angstroms from each Pd.
>From the top, it looks like a rhombus, with the H atoms equally spaced
about each Pd atom parallel to the larger diagonal, similarly from the
side. They are not equally spaced of course, but because of symmetry, it
looks that way from the top and side views.  
	 I can send an image .eps file if anyone
is interested. The relative coordinates and forces are:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Element  Atom     Fractional coordinates       Forces in cartesian (eV/A)
         number    after optimization step      before optimization step
                    u         v         w        Fx        Fy        Fz

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Pd       1   -0.00392  -0.00490  -0.00519  -0.03278  -0.04237  -0.04561
   Pd       2    0.50139   0.50148   0.00131   0.01370   0.00752   0.00856 
   Pd       3    0.00081   0.50245   0.50245   0.00445   0.02720   0.02124
   Pd       4    0.50155   0.00126   0.50188   0.02213   0.00688   0.01196
   H        1    0.38077   0.38703   0.39154   0.06434  -0.02459  -0.04460
   H        2    0.38121  -0.11441  -0.10911   0.00085  -0.01073  -0.03327
   H        3   -0.11566   0.38622  -0.11250  -0.02568  -0.06785   0.04413
   H        4   -0.11683  -0.11335   0.38982   0.00841   0.00644  -0.05502
   H        5    0.61962   0.61382   0.60911  -0.05665   0.03220   0.05729
   H        6    0.11763   0.11480   0.60744  -0.00215  -0.00159   0.03682
   H        7    0.11592   0.61087   0.11337   0.03085   0.04785  -0.03953
   H        8    0.61752   0.11473   0.10990  -0.02747   0.01904   0.03802
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am looking at PdH4 currently. I will report results later.








	I am trying a PdH4 structure also

On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  hank scudder's message of Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:16:06 -0800:
> Hi Hank,
> >I set up a crystal of Pd, which normally has a body centered cubic
> >structure, and I let it relax to a minimum energy configuration. This
> >resulted in a lattice constant of 3.90953 Angstroms, 
> 
> The info I have says that Pd is normally face centred, not body centred
> (as Ed has already pointed out), with a lattice constant of 3.8907 Å.
> You might like to try fcc and see if you come up with the same lattice
> constant (as a test of the software).
> (See http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Pd/xtal.html )
> 
> >and a total energy
> >of -3209.0223 eV.
> 
> This appears to be the total binding energy of the mini-crystal you
> modelled.
> 
> (See also
> http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Pd/latt.html )
> 
> >
> >I then set up a PdH hydride, using the same crystal structure, and
> >inserted a Hydrogen atom in between each Pd atom, and let it relax,
> >resulting in a total energy of -3273.5869 eV with a lattice constant of
> >4.086193 Angstroms. If I then subtract out the energy of the Hydrogen
> >atoms alone in this same geometry, of -53.5859 eV and of Pd alone of
> >-3208.5153 eV, I get a binding energy of -11.8619 eV, 
>  
> 
> I get 11.4857 eV (so I assume we are on the same track).
> 
> >or -5.93095 eV
> >per Pd atom, which is quite stable. 
> 
> Given that the -11.8619 eV was what was left over for the whole crystal,
> and -5.93095 eV is 1/2 of that, this would seem to imply that your
> crystal only had 2 Pd atoms in it (which would make sense if you were
> only looking at a single bcc lattice cell). However, I can't correlate
> this with a total binding energy of thousands of eV for the pure Pd, as
> that would then mean -1636.79345 eV / Pd atom which is ridiculous.
> 
> (BTW I think 5 eV is probably exorbitant anyway, as that is a pretty
> large number for any chemical reaction).
> 
> >The average molecular energy at room
> >temperature, kT, is about 0.025 eV so thermal motion will not disrupt the
> >PdH hydride.
> >
> >This is all for now, I am going home for thanksgiving holiday.
> >Hank
> This will be waiting for you when you get back :)
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 26 19:06:54 2001
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At 08:51 AM 11/26/01 -0800, you wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, William Beaty wrote:
>
>
> >  It spreads fast because it can use some versions of MS Outlook
> > to run itself when viewed (without the victim having to open the infected
> > attachments.)

Shields up !


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 02:00:21 2001
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Yup, here's the probable cause:
> 
> "...alterations to cerebration systems..."
> 
> But where's the web site where all is revealed?
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

Allen Caggiano wrote:

>For more information go to my web site www.get113to138mpg.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 12:23:54 2001
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Subject: Re: Loading Pd over 1.0
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In the Physics Letters A paper I cited, Tripodi et al. claim they may have 
observed signs of a new Pd loading configuration, the gamma phase above 90% 
loading. They cite two papers which they say describe this new phase in theory:

[7] F. Celani et al., Phys. Lett. A 214 (1996) 1–13.
[8] G. Preparata, QED Coherence in Matter, World Scientific, 1995.

If anyone has read these, please let me know what they say.

Tripodi et al. say their paper is the first experimental evidence for the 
new phase. This study is based entirely on electrochemical theory and 
measurements, of relative resistance. I do not know where in the lattice 
Preparata thought the deuterons were arranging themselves. (I have a nice 
diagram of alpha and beta loading, at Octahedral and Tetrahedral sites, 
from the Japanese edition of Scientific American).

I gather Ed Storms thinks that two or more deuterons might occupy the same 
O or T site in loading above 1.0.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 12:31:19 2001
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Hi all,

Okay i've been racking my brains about this and I realized why not let this
forum address the issue (I apologize in advance for being slightly
off-topic). As some of you know I have been working on a book on the
sociology of the cold fusion controversy. Many delays and shifts in editors
later the thing which is titled - "Undead Science: Science Studies and the
Afterlife of Cold Fusion" is due out with Rutgers Press in Fall 2002.

The book is basically about the impications for the cold fusion controversy
(and especially work on CF after 1990) for methods and concepts for
understanding science in sociological terms. The book is less about the
technical justification for CF (which has been admirably handled by Charles
Beaudette amongst others) and if anything it is meant to be a sustained
sociological critique of the idea of pathological science that provides a
different way of looking at the situation without having to assume that
players on one side of the controversy are irrational goofs while the
others are god's gift to science.

Anyway.. content issues aside my editor has now asked about what I would
like to see for the cover of the book and this being my first book and
all... i'm stumped. So keeping in mind that this book is about the social
and cultural aspects of the controversy (although I try to be as accurate
as possible with respect to techical issues) do any of you have any ideas
for a good cover - images, artwork, photographs, graphics?  For the moment
i'll assume that cost is no issue (although it is - basically the publisher
won't go for anything they need to pay for) because for now i'm just
looking for ideas.

Thanks for your help.
Bart
========================================
Bart Simon
Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology, LB-687
Concordia University
1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
Montreal, Quebec
H3G-1M8

phone: 514-848-2164
fax: 514-848-4539
=========================================

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 12:41:07 2001
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

> > times." As far as I know, it was only repeated once, not many times, and
> > the results contradicted special relativity. Do you know of other
> > repetitions?
>
>Yes, I was a passive listener to this debate before. There are at least 12
>replications of the experiment, with on a couple of results indicating a
>change in the speed of light.

You should tell Collins & Pinch about them.

In 1933, Miller published a paper saying that other experiments with light 
(which I gather were not exactly like M&M and his work) failed to test the 
hypothesis correctly, mainly because they were close to the ground, or 
sealed in huge boxes in the basements of massive buildings, and thus 
shielded from the putative aether wind. If one takes the aether wind 
hypothesis seriously, his objections should be taken into account. And if 
one does not take it seriously, why bother doing the experiment in the 
first place?


>As my cite notes, there are several working devices that depend upon this 
>principle, so you could say that it is reproven every day.

I pointed that out as well. However, it is conceivable that part of the 
theory is correct, and part is wrong, or incomplete. This has happened in 
the past. I doubt this is the case with s.r., but until we do the 
light-speed experiment properly, according to the aether theory, we cannot 
be sure. To be complete accurate, you should say: "there are several 
working devices which appear to operate according to the principle as far 
as we can tell . . ."

That is a mouthful! You cannot go through life adding that caveat to every 
statement about every machine that operates according to conventional 
theory. But at the back of your mind, I think you should never forget that 
a working devices never actually, literally "depends" upon "principles." 
Devices are real and principles are a figment of the human imagination. The 
actual set of rules and principles that govern real devices are beyond the 
human imagination, and always will be. I do not think that any system, no 
matter how simple, can ever be fully explicated by man. Even a simple 
machine such as a lever or a wedge grows rapidly complicated when you start 
asking about friction, what holds the solids together, what makes two 
objects separate bodies, why they cannot occupy the same space at the same 
time, how much and why the lever bends or compresses, and so on. Just a 
little beyond the bounds of what we think we know, you find a whole 
continent of unanswered questions and experiments that have not yet been 
performed satisfactorily.


>Good luck in you're attempts to refute Einstein's SR/GR. Doing so will be 
>very exciting.

I would make no such attempt. It is not worth it. Other theories stand a 
much larger chance of being wrong or incomplete. I was merely pointing out 
that the competing aethor wind may never have been properly tested. There 
is not enough time or money to test every theory.

- Jed

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Claytor's work shows that work hardened Pd produceds more tritium. 

It is reasonable to conclude that fusion is taking place at lattice
defects. 

Loading itself causes lattice defects. This explaines the 4 day delay in
the production of He-4 in Russ George's experiments. The equilibrium had
to be maintained between loading and unloading long enough for the defects
to form. Once formed, there was large enough spaces for multiple deuterons
to easily collect.

The deuterium at these lattice defects forms a  Bose Einstein Condensate.
It is as Dr. Kim's theory, except he failed to account for the high
density. They then can fuse once the BEC forms because the distance at
which their fermion nature manifests itself is about the same as the
distance at which they will fuse.

 


On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote: 

> In the Physics Letters A paper I cited, Tripodi et al. claim they may have 
> observed signs of a new Pd loading configuration, the gamma phase above 90% 
> loading. They cite two papers which they say describe this new phase in theory:
> 
> [7] F. Celani et al., Phys. Lett. A 214 (1996) 1–13.
> [8] G. Preparata, QED Coherence in Matter, World Scientific, 1995.
> 
> If anyone has read these, please let me know what they say.
> 
> Tripodi et al. say their paper is the first experimental evidence for the 
> new phase. This study is based entirely on electrochemical theory and 
> measurements, of relative resistance. I do not know where in the lattice 
> Preparata thought the deuterons were arranging themselves. (I have a nice 
> diagram of alpha and beta loading, at Octahedral and Tetrahedral sites, 
> from the Japanese edition of Scientific American).
> 
> I gather Ed Storms thinks that two or more deuterons might occupy the same 
> O or T site in loading above 1.0.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 13:01:57 2001
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http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/27/technology/27HEAT.html?todaysheadlines


November 27, 2001

A Practical Way to Make Power From Wasted Heat

By KENNETH CHANG


Scientists at M.I.T. and a small company in Salt Lake City are scheduled to
announce today that they have developed technology that can efficiently and
inexpensively transform heat pollution into electricity.

Although only a few crude samples have been built, Dr. Yan Kucherov,
director of research and development at the Salt Lake City company, Eneco
Inc., and Dr. Peter L. Hagelstein, professor of electrical engineering at
M.I.T. and a technical consultant at Eneco, say that their devices improve
the efficiency of the conversion by more than half.

"It's really first-generation, very primitive implementation," Dr.
Hagelstein said. "Potentially, it's an enormous deal. This opens a door."

While the heat generated by car engines and power plants usually does
nothing but warm the surrounding air, scientists have long dreamed of
building so-called thermoelectric devices that can capture the wasted heat
and convert a portion of it into electricity.

Such devices could significantly increase the electrical output of existing
power plants or power the electrical systems of automobiles, replacing
alternators and increasing gas mileage.

The Pentagon, which partly financed the new research, has been interested in
using the devices for silent motors. Operating in reverse, thermoelectric
devices can also be used as refrigerators.

Another advantage of thermoelectric devices is that they produce electricity
without generating additional pollution.

Current thermoelectric technology converts only about 10 percent of the heat
it absorbs into electricity, too inefficient a return for widespread use.
The new devices, however, reach about 17 percent, and Dr. Hagelstein said
future devices should be able to improve upon that significantly.

It is impossible to transform 100 percent of the heat into electricity. The
laws of physics dictate a theoretical maximum of about 50 percent at the
temperature a thermoelectric device operates at. Current commercial
thermoelectric devices, at 10 percent efficiency, get only one-fifth the
maximum. Using the new technology, future devices should be able to achieve
more than half the maximum.

The researchers are presenting their findings at a meeting of the Materials
Research Society in Boston. Scientific papers describing the experiments
have been submitted to the journals Physical Review Letters and Applied
Physics Letters.

If borne out, the findings would be significant, said Dr. George S. Nolas, a
professor of physics at the University of South Florida and an organizer of
a symposium about thermoelectric devices at the Materials Research Society
meeting. Dr. Nolas had not seen the Eneco paper but said the reported
efficiency was high enough to find practical use and "would be pretty good
news."

Eneco's thermoelectric device is a sandwich of three layers of
semiconductor. One outer layer is heated; the other is kept at room
temperature. The middle layer acts as an insulator to maintain the
temperature difference.

The heat causes electrons to shoot out, some crossing the sandwich to
generate an electrical current. The Eneco researchers added impurities ‹ a
process called doping ‹ to the heated layer to increase the flow of
electrons.

"The region near the hot part is heavily doped, so it boils off electrons,"
Dr. Hagelstein said. "We get more voltage and more current."

He added: "The underlying technology is really very simple. It should be a
very practical, relatively cheap technology."

Leroy Becker, marketing director of Eneco, which is not associated with the
Dutch utility Eneco Energie, said the company hoped to produce a prototype
of a practical device within a year and sell it within two years.

Eneco, a privately held company, was created in 1991 to seek to license
patents on cold fusion after the controversial claim of two University of
Utah scientists that they could produce almost limitless amounts of energy
in a room-temperature flask of water. Eneco also financed follow-up research
on cold fusion, including work by Dr. Hagelstein. The claims for cold fusion
were far overstated, and several years ago, Eneco shifted its focus to
thermoelectric devices.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 13:08:20 2001
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: A question of integrity
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The speed of light can be derived from Maxwell's equations, which show it
to be a constant. Is Maxwell's equations also "a house of cards"? (1)
IRRC, the Einstein's original derivation of SR didn't even mention MM and
was based purely on the wave equation of light.

My literature search in the Physics library came up dry, because the
subject was just too old. 


(1) I'm asking, not making fun. See, for example, Robertson, Rev. Mod.
Phys. 21 (1949) 549 or Lammerzahd, Physics Letters A 282 (2001) 223.

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> > > times." As far as I know, it was only repeated once, not many times, and
> > > the results contradicted special relativity. Do you know of other
> > > repetitions?
> >
> >Yes, I was a passive listener to this debate before. There are at least 12
> >replications of the experiment, with on a couple of results indicating a
> >change in the speed of light.
> 
> You should tell Collins & Pinch about them.
>
> In 1933, Miller published a paper saying that other experiments with light 
> (which I gather were not exactly like M&M and his work) failed to test the 
> hypothesis correctly, mainly because they were close to the ground, or 
> sealed in huge boxes in the basements of massive buildings, and thus 
> shielded from the putative aether wind. 

Since electric and magnetic fields, which are suppose to be part of the
aether wind, can pass through in these conditions, his argument doesn't
hold. 


>If one takes the aether wind 
> hypothesis seriously, his objections should be taken into account. And if 
> one does not take it seriously, why bother doing the experiment in the 
> first place?
> 
> 
> >As my cite notes, there are several working devices that depend upon this 
> >principle, so you could say that it is reproven every day.
> 
> I pointed that out as well. However, it is conceivable that part of the 
> theory is correct, and part is wrong, or incomplete. This has happened in 
> the past. I doubt this is the case with s.r., but until we do the 
> light-speed experiment properly, according to the aether theory, we cannot 
> be sure. To be complete accurate, you should say: "there are several 
> working devices which appear to operate according to the principle as far 
> as we can tell . . ."

:-)  I give, but I am not convinced. I am not convinced because I've seen
the references. I give because I don't want to spend the effort to look
them up and share them.



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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:19:01 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
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	Jed
Where is the aether theory written down? Exactly what test does one do to
test it? What sheilds the aether, how does it work, etc. I am not sure
what exactly we are trying to compare with special relativity.

Hank


On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> > > times." As far as I know, it was only repeated once, not many times, and
> > > the results contradicted special relativity. Do you know of other
> > > repetitions?
> >
> >Yes, I was a passive listener to this debate before. There are at least 12
> >replications of the experiment, with on a couple of results indicating a
> >change in the speed of light.
> 
> You should tell Collins & Pinch about them.
> 
> In 1933, Miller published a paper saying that other experiments with light 
> (which I gather were not exactly like M&M and his work) failed to test the 
> hypothesis correctly, mainly because they were close to the ground, or 
> sealed in huge boxes in the basements of massive buildings, and thus 
> shielded from the putative aether wind. If one takes the aether wind 
> hypothesis seriously, his objections should be taken into account. And if 
> one does not take it seriously, why bother doing the experiment in the 
> first place?
> 
> 
> >As my cite notes, there are several working devices that depend upon this 
> >principle, so you could say that it is reproven every day.
> 
> I pointed that out as well. However, it is conceivable that part of the 
> theory is correct, and part is wrong, or incomplete. This has happened in 
> the past. I doubt this is the case with s.r., but until we do the 
> light-speed experiment properly, according to the aether theory, we cannot 
> be sure. To be complete accurate, you should say: "there are several 
> working devices which appear to operate according to the principle as far 
> as we can tell . . ."
> 
> That is a mouthful! You cannot go through life adding that caveat to every 
> statement about every machine that operates according to conventional 
> theory. But at the back of your mind, I think you should never forget that 
> a working devices never actually, literally "depends" upon "principles." 
> Devices are real and principles are a figment of the human imagination. The 
> actual set of rules and principles that govern real devices are beyond the 
> human imagination, and always will be. I do not think that any system, no 
> matter how simple, can ever be fully explicated by man. Even a simple 
> machine such as a lever or a wedge grows rapidly complicated when you start 
> asking about friction, what holds the solids together, what makes two 
> objects separate bodies, why they cannot occupy the same space at the same 
> time, how much and why the lever bends or compresses, and so on. Just a 
> little beyond the bounds of what we think we know, you find a whole 
> continent of unanswered questions and experiments that have not yet been 
> performed satisfactorily.
> 
> 
> >Good luck in you're attempts to refute Einstein's SR/GR. Doing so will be 
> >very exciting.
> 
> I would make no such attempt. It is not worth it. Other theories stand a 
> much larger chance of being wrong or incomplete. I was merely pointing out 
> that the competing aethor wind may never have been properly tested. There 
> is not enough time or money to test every theory.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 13:48:05 2001
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From: "Don Wiegel" <dwiegel home.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <3.0.3.32.20011127153014.006a4bd4 alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: cover ideas for my cold fusion book
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:40:38 -0700
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How about a photo/painting of a candle flame melting an ice cube
(suspended above the flame on a string) with a Blue merged to Red
background.

..DonW..


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bart Simon" <simonb alcor.concordia.ca>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 1:30 PM
Subject: cover ideas for my cold fusion book


> Hi all,
>
> Okay i've been racking my brains about this and I realized why not let
this
> forum address the issue (I apologize in advance for being slightly
> off-topic). As some of you know I have been working on a book on the
> sociology of the cold fusion controversy. Many delays and shifts in
editors
> later the thing which is titled - "Undead Science: Science Studies and the
> Afterlife of Cold Fusion" is due out with Rutgers Press in Fall 2002.
>
> Thanks for your help.
> Bart
> ========================================
> Bart Simon
> Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology, LB-687
> Concordia University

>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 13:48:44 2001
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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:45:05 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: cover ideas for my cold fusion book
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Bart Simon wrote:

>Anyway.. content issues aside my editor has now asked about what I would 
>like to see for the cover of the book and this being my first book and 
>all... i'm stumped. So keeping in mind that this book is about the social 
>and cultural aspects of the controversy (although I try to be as accurate 
>as possible with respect to techical issues) do any of you have any ideas 
>for a good cover - images, artwork, photographs, graphics?

I think you should illustrate the cover with one of McKubre's graphs 
showing 90 sigma excess heat. This data proves that the content of your 
book has no technical merit. I trust that you honestly do try to be "as 
accurate as possible with respect to technical issue," but you utterly 
fail. If you or your publisher understood these graphs, and the facts they 
reveal, you would withdraw the book from publication.

I cannot comment on the "social and cultural aspects of the controversy" as 
you see them. As I pointed out earlier, the controversy itself is about 
calorimetry, not society & culture. If I understand your paper correctly, 
you have failed to make this vital distinction, apparently based on some 
trendy, shallow notions of "cultural relativity" or some other humbug. You 
think "calorimetry" is somehow inseparable from the lives, politics, and 
petty concerns of people who do calorimetry. This is like thinking that if 
an architect divorces or dies his building will fall down. You seem to 
reject the basis of the distinction. You confuse the human process of doing 
science, which is fraught with culturally based delusions and "idols," with 
the content of science itself, which (in part at least) transcends the 
human imagination and the limits of culture. This vital distinction was 
first described in detail by F. Bacon in the early 1600s. It is the basis 
of our Civilization, so I think you should learn more about it.

To be concrete, your paper confuses two separate and unrelated topics: 1. 
What the experiments actually show. 2. What some ignorant scientists 
mistakenly believe they show. It is important to realize that a scientist 
may be ignorant, bigoted and he may embrace whacky notions and unfounded 
beliefs. He is just a likely to be wrong as a cavemen or a Roman peasant in 
the year 200 AD was. Human nature has not changed. Knowing many detailed 
and correct facts about one technical subject does not prevent today's 
scientist from being utterly deluded about another technical subject. For 
that matter, Roman peasants knew more than most people nowadays think they did.

There are many social & cultural controversies surrounding "hot button" 
topics such as evolution or cloning. These have no relevance to the 
technical content of biology. It is interesting -- and valuable -- to study 
these social & cultural effusions. They are a fit subject for anthropology, 
sociology, literature or social pathology. They are good way to learn about 
people, in other words. But no one who is interested in biology per se 
needs to take these notions into account. If you were to write about 
scientists who believe in "creationism" you might make a valuable 
contribution to sociology, but not if you started mixing up their beliefs 
with biology, and not if you claimed you book was about biology. The people 
you describe and quote in your paper know nothing about the actual content 
of cold fusion research, any more than creationists know about biology, or 
witch doctors know about blood chemistry.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 14:03:24 2001
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Subject: Re: cover ideas for my cold fusion book
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Bart:

   Why don't you focus on the truth: which is, the pathological criticism 
of cold fusion
    and the cold fusion researchers, and the associated coverup of cold 
fusion results.

    The truth about Heavywatergate --and the coverup--  is more important 
than any cover.

        Dr. Mitchell Swartz







At 03:30 PM 11/27/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Okay i've been racking my brains about this and I realized why not let this
>forum address the issue (I apologize in advance for being slightly
>off-topic). As some of you know I have been working on a book on the
>sociology of the cold fusion controversy. Many delays and shifts in editors
>later the thing which is titled - "Undead Science: Science Studies and the
>Afterlife of Cold Fusion" is due out with Rutgers Press in Fall 2002.
>
>The book is basically about the impications for the cold fusion controversy
>(and especially work on CF after 1990) for methods and concepts for
>understanding science in sociological terms. The book is less about the
>technical justification for CF (which has been admirably handled by Charles
>Beaudette amongst others) and if anything it is meant to be a sustained
>sociological critique of the idea of pathological science that provides a
>different way of looking at the situation without having to assume that
>players on one side of the controversy are irrational goofs while the
>others are god's gift to science.
>
>Anyway.. content issues aside my editor has now asked about what I would
>like to see for the cover of the book and this being my first book and
>all... i'm stumped. So keeping in mind that this book is about the social
>and cultural aspects of the controversy (although I try to be as accurate
>as possible with respect to techical issues) do any of you have any ideas
>for a good cover - images, artwork, photographs, graphics?  For the moment
>i'll assume that cost is no issue (although it is - basically the publisher
>won't go for anything they need to pay for) because for now i'm just
>looking for ideas.
>
>Thanks for your help.
>Bart
>========================================
>Bart Simon
>Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology, LB-687
>Concordia University
>1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
>Montreal, Quebec
>H3G-1M8
>
>phone: 514-848-2164
>fax: 514-848-4539
>=========================================

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 14:07:04 2001
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Don Wiegel wrote:
> 
> How about a photo/painting of a candle flame melting an ice cube
> (suspended above the flame on a string) with a Blue merged to Red
> background.

Or, a flame emerging from an ice cube melting a candle,
symbolizing cold fusion replacing fossil fuels.  ;-)

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 14:13:21 2001
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Subject: Re: A question of integrity
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hank scudder wrote:

>Where is the aether theory written down?

Honestly, I do not know much about it. I suppose the best expression of it 
would have been the final flowering of the theory, circa 1933, by Miller 
and others. Years ago, in the Cornell library, I read a college physics 
textbook published at that time. It treated aether as the respectable, 
mainstream theory. There was brief note about "new and still controversial" 
special relativity at the end of the chapter.

I suppose the theory must have seemed tenable to many mainstream 
physicists, and worth testing, since the AAAS awarded the experiments its 
annual prize in 1925.


>Exactly what test does one do to test it? What sheilds the aether, how 
>does it work, etc.

I gather they though the atmosphere and objects on the earth's surface 
shielded against it. They thought the atmosphere carries along a portion of 
the aether "entrained," holding it stock still relative to earth, kind of 
like the water at the bank of a river. Perhaps they came up with that 
notion after M&M failed to detect the "aether wind." Miller said, "The 
experiment is designed to detect a very minute effect on the velocity of 
light . . . and it would seem to be essential that there should be the 
least possible obstruction between the free ether and the light path in the 
interferometer . . ."


>I am not sure what exactly we are trying to compare with special relativity.

Perhaps no one ever defined it exactly? I wouldn't know. I suppose the 
theory is wrong, which would make it hard to refine with exactitude. But I 
have not read Miller, and I cannot say. C&P quote him briefly. He sounds 
sensible. The AAAS took him seriously, and they are usually sensible, but 
on the other hand they take the anti-CF crowd seriously today, so you never 
can tell. Sometimes, mainstream theories get prizes only because they are 
mainstream, by contingency and incumbency.

I should note that the latest issue of Infinite Energy has several articles 
about modern ether theory. Unfortunately, I do not understand enough about 
theory to read or comment on them. I honestly had no idea what they say, 
which is why I hesitate to mention them.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 14:26:42 2001
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Subject: Re: cover ideas for my cold fusion book
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On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Bart Simon wrote:
> 
> >Anyway.. content issues aside my editor has now asked about what I would 
> >like to see for the cover of the book and this being my first book and 
> >all... i'm stumped. So keeping in mind that this book is about the social 
> >and cultural aspects of the controversy (although I try to be as accurate 
> >as possible with respect to techical issues) do any of you have any ideas 
> >for a good cover - images, artwork, photographs, graphics?
> 
> I think you should illustrate the cover with one of McKubre's graphs 
> showing 90 sigma excess heat. This data proves that the content of your 
> book has no technical merit. I trust that you honestly do try to be "as 
> accurate as possible with respect to technical issue," but you utterly 
> fail. If you or your publisher understood these graphs, and the facts they 
> reveal, you would withdraw the book from publication.


He said that the techinical issues was handeled by "How cold fusion
prevailed", a book whichs debunks the really bad science done by the
skeptics, and points to the clear evidence that indicates cold fusion. 
 
The topic of the text is the social aspects of the controversy, which
really has nothing at all to do with cold fusion or the cold fusion
effect. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 14:28:40 2001
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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:27:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: cover ideas for my cold fusion book
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On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

> 
> Bart:
> 
>    Why don't you focus on the truth: which is, the pathological criticism 
> of cold fusion
>     and the cold fusion researchers, and the associated coverup of cold 
> fusion results.
> 
>     The truth about Heavywatergate --and the coverup--  is more important 
> than any cover.
> 
>         Dr. Mitchell Swartz

How do you know there is an intentional cover-up? I'm sure that there are
plenty of highly intelligent people out there that let their bias and need
to appear respectable color their opinions and lead them to pass off their
emotional opinions as scientific ones.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 14:35:11 2001
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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:43:28 -0500
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You guys are a bunch of holiday hams...

The MicroMunchkins wrote up a pretty good
report on the bug, so why even bother with the
patch? Change the security setting for IE
so that file downloads are prohibited. It's
a shame that there's not an option to query
the user but I understand IE6 fixes
this problem? Better still, disable the
preview pane in Outlook so HTML doesn't
get automagically rendered...
Solves a whole slew of worm problems.

If everyone switches to linux, then we
could all be discussing the latest linux worm,
huh?

K.






-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1 yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 4:03 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Latest email virus plague: badtransB


At 08:51 AM 11/26/01 -0800, you wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, William Beaty wrote:
>
>
> >  It spreads fast because it can use some versions of MS Outlook
> > to run itself when viewed (without the victim having to open the
infected
> > attachments.)

Shields up !


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 14:37:50 2001
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Subject: Re: A question of integrity
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On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> hank scudder wrote:
> 
> >Where is the aether theory written down?
> 
> Honestly, I do not know much about it. I suppose the best expression of it 
> would have been the final flowering of the theory, circa 1933, by Miller 
> and others. Years ago, in the Cornell library, I read a college physics 
> textbook published at that time. It treated aether as the respectable, 
> mainstream theory. There was brief note about "new and still controversial" 
> special relativity at the end of the chapter.

Yes, relativity was treated pretty much the same way that cold fusion is
treated now. 
 
 >Exactly what test does one do to test it? What sheilds the aether, how 
> shielded against it. They thought the atmosphere carries along a portion of 
> the aether "entrained," holding it stock still relative to earth, kind of 
> like the water at the bank of a river. Perhaps they came up with that 


The aether drag theory was debunked. The way it was debunked was by
observing a moon of Jupiter. They could calculate the orbital period and
noted the time it took for the moon to be observed going around Jupiter. I
don't recall the specifics, but it depended on the apparent period of the
moon in completing a partial orbit.  It is easy to see how this could be
done. 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 18:10:06 2001
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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:07:38 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: cover ideas for my cold fusion book
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>He said that the techinical issues was handeled by "How cold fusion
>prevailed", a book whichs debunks the really bad science done by the
>skeptics, and points to the clear evidence that indicates cold fusion. 
> 
>The topic of the text is the social aspects of the controversy, which
>really has nothing at all to do with cold fusion or the cold fusion
>effect.

I read his essay, and wrote a response here. I do not think he handled the
technical details well. I think he tried to judge the scientific issues
based on the social response. Perhaps I misunderstood the essay. He did not
respond to my critique or correct my impression.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 20:42:54 2001
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From: "Ryan Hopkins" <thebishop usadatanet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <3.0.3.32.20011127153014.006a4bd4 alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: cover ideas for my cold fusion book
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 23:02:23 -0500
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Sounds interesting.  I'm a graphic artist and have an idea - I'll send it to
you in a few days if you don't mind.  What's the size of the book?
Ryan Hopkins

http://lotek_1.tripod.com/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bart Simon" <simonb alcor.concordia.ca>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 3:30 PM
Subject: cover ideas for my cold fusion book


> Hi all,
>
> Okay i've been racking my brains about this and I realized why not let
this
> forum address the issue (I apologize in advance for being slightly
> off-topic). As some of you know I have been working on a book on the
> sociology of the cold fusion controversy. Many delays and shifts in
editors
> later the thing which is titled - "Undead Science: Science Studies and the
> Afterlife of Cold Fusion" is due out with Rutgers Press in Fall 2002.
>
> The book is basically about the impications for the cold fusion
controversy
> (and especially work on CF after 1990) for methods and concepts for
> understanding science in sociological terms. The book is less about the
> technical justification for CF (which has been admirably handled by
Charles
> Beaudette amongst others) and if anything it is meant to be a sustained
> sociological critique of the idea of pathological science that provides a
> different way of looking at the situation without having to assume that
> players on one side of the controversy are irrational goofs while the
> others are god's gift to science.
>
> Anyway.. content issues aside my editor has now asked about what I would
> like to see for the cover of the book and this being my first book and
> all... i'm stumped. So keeping in mind that this book is about the social
> and cultural aspects of the controversy (although I try to be as accurate
> as possible with respect to techical issues) do any of you have any ideas
> for a good cover - images, artwork, photographs, graphics?  For the moment
> i'll assume that cost is no issue (although it is - basically the
publisher
> won't go for anything they need to pay for) because for now i'm just
> looking for ideas.
>
> Thanks for your help.
> Bart
> ========================================
> Bart Simon
> Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology, LB-687
> Concordia University
> 1455 de Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
> Montreal, Quebec
> H3G-1M8
>
> phone: 514-848-2164
> fax: 514-848-4539
> =========================================
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 27 23:12:16 2001
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Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 23:09:42 -0800
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Bart --

How about a picture of some distinguished people looking for keys under a
streetlight,
while the ground in the shadows is littered with keys.

It sounds like your book is about the way society treats those who
look in the shadows.

-- Bob Horst

Bart Simon wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Okay i've been racking my brains about this and I realized why not let this
> forum address the issue (I apologize in advance for being slightly
> off-topic). As some of you know I have been working on a book on the
> sociology of the cold fusion controversy. Many delays and shifts in editors
> later the thing which is titled - "Undead Science: Science Studies and the
> Afterlife of Cold Fusion" is due out with Rutgers Press in Fall 2002.
>
> The book is basically about the impications for the cold fusion controversy
> (and especially work on CF after 1990) for methods and concepts for
> understanding science in sociological terms. The book is less about the
> technical justification for CF (which has been admirably handled by Charles
> Beaudette amongst others) and if anything it is meant to be a sustained
> sociological critique of the idea of pathological science that provides a
> different way of looking at the situation without having to assume that
> players on one side of the controversy are irrational goofs while the
> others are god's gift to science.
>
> Anyway.. content issues aside my editor has now asked about what I would
> like to see for the cover of the book and this being my first book and
> all... i'm stumped. So keeping in mind that this book is about the social
> and cultural aspects of the controversy (although I try to be as accurate
> as possible with respect to techical issues) do any of you have any ideas
> for a good cover - images, artwork, photographs, graphics?  For the moment
> i'll assume that cost is no issue (although it is - basically the publisher
> won't go for anything they need to pay for) because for now i'm just
> looking for ideas.
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 01:04:34 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 20:01:20 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Stephen Lajoie's message of Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:12:25
-0800:
>On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
[snip]
>> Einstein assumed the speed of light as the maximum speed at which any
>> object could travel,
>
>He didn't assume that. He took the MM experiment at face value in that it
>indicated that an observer in motion would measure the speed of light to
>be the same regardless of his velocity. 


There are alternative theories which explain the MM experimental
results, without making that assumption.

>From that, he was able to derive
>that no mass or energy could move faster than light. The derivation
>involved showing that it would require infinate energy (not the magazine)
>to reach the speed of light. 

This derivation contains a hidden assumption, being that the means of
attempting such a feat be by normal acceleration. Travel through a
wormhole would be an example of an alternative approach.
It has also since it was first derived, been generalised beyond its
scope of applicability.
IMO kinetic energy is magnetic field energy, which in turn assumes the
presence of a self-magnetic field. It may be possible to create a pure
electrical wave that has no magnetic component, and is therefore not
limited to the speed of light, as no energy need be (is) stored in the
magnetic field.

>
>> when he developed the ST. Since then everyone else
>> has jumped on the band wagon, and assumed that absolutely nothing could
>> travel faster than light, including information. There is however some
>> evidence to suggest that this isn't so.
>
>Again, there was no assumption. The information clause was supportive of
>the limit on speed of mass and energy and was consistant with causality. 

As far as I can see, the speed of light has nothing to do with
causality.
Causality is linked to the speed of information transfer, which is not
bound to the speed of light (IMO). (BTW this is also a consequence of
"entanglement" if you want to believe in that).
However I don't believe in it, and consequently see no need to use FTL
to explain it. Bob Lowry's comment on phase relationships is much nearer
the true explanation for "entanglement" IMO.
Phase information is an aspect of particle physics that is usually
ignored. Is it then any wonder that we get "magical" results. First
throw the information away, then point to a relationship that "pops up
out of nowhere". "Look, nothing up my sleeves!"
[snip]
>You said it was a house of cards. It appears to be a well thought out and
>tested theory, with few problems in it's predictions. 

I think it is a house of cards, in as much as the epicycle theory was a
house of cards. It too worked, but was replaced by a simpler model .
I think this is what is in store for the standard model. I think the
replacement will be an aether theory.
One clue to this is the Plank mass, which currently has no apparent real
partner.
I also think the Higgs boson is a pipe dream. Mass is a measure of
energy content, through interaction with the vacuum, and not a special
property of matter that requires a new particle. In fact there is no
such thing as mass, i.e. it is not an intrinsic property of matter, it
is an extrinsic property. The relevant intrinsic property is particle
size (the smaller the particle, the more "massive" it is - at least for
"simple" particles i.e. not conglomerates).
(Leptons are simple particles, Baryons are conglomerates).
[snip]

> 
>> >We can conclude
>> >that everything we know is in some measure wrong. Theories are, however,
>> >as good as their predictions, and the predictions of SR and GR are fairly
>> >good on the large scale. It is still the best theory.
>> 
>> It is still a fairly good theory. There are a couple of others that I
>> would give the time day.
>
>?!?

This isn't as contradictory as it appears. The epicycle theory worked
too, and was fine as far as it went. It was a house of cards (i.e. based
on weak foundations and doomed to collapse and be replaced)
nevertheless.
[snip]
>> >I don't think it says that. You take an intergral around the particle and
>> >assume the particle is in the volume. 
>> 
>> Try convincing PZ that it isn't a point particle :)
>
>Who is PZ?
Dr. Peter Zimmerman(n?).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 01:09:28 2001
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Here's an article from the NY Times that mentions Eneco, Hagelstein and cold
fusion...

Nick Palmer
===========================================================================
November 27, 2001

A Practical Way to Make Power From Wasted Heat
By KENNETH CHANG


Scientists at M.I.T. and a small company in Salt Lake City are scheduled to
announce today that they have developed technology that can efficiently and
inexpensively transform heat pollution into electricity.

Although only a few crude samples have been built, Dr. Yan Kucherov,
director of research and development at the Salt Lake City company, Eneco
Inc., and Dr. Peter L. Hagelstein, professor of electrical engineering at
M.I.T. and a technical consultant at Eneco, say that their devices improve
the efficiency of the conversion by more than half.

"It's really first-generation, very primitive implementation," Dr.
Hagelstein said. "Potentially, it's an enormous deal. This opens a door."

While the heat generated by car engines and power plants usually does
nothing but warm the surrounding air, scientists have long dreamed of
building so-called thermoelectric devices that can capture the wasted heat
and convert a portion of it into electricity.

Such devices could significantly increase the electrical output of existing
power plants or power the electrical systems of automobiles, replacing
alternators and increasing gas mileage.

The Pentagon, which partly financed the new research, has been interested in
using the devices for silent motors. Operating in reverse, thermoelectric
devices can also be used as refrigerators.

Another advantage of thermoelectric devices is that they produce electricity
without generating additional pollution.

Current thermoelectric technology converts only about 10 percent of the heat
it absorbs into electricity, too inefficient a return for widespread use.
The new devices, however, reach about 17 percent, and Dr. Hagelstein said
future devices should be able to improve upon that significantly.

It is impossible to transform 100 percent of the heat into electricity. The
laws of physics dictate a theoretical maximum of about 50 percent at the
temperature a thermoelectric device operates at. Current commercial
thermoelectric devices, at 10 percent efficiency, get only one-fifth the
maximum. Using the new technology, future devices should be able to achieve
more than half the maximum.

The researchers are presenting their findings at a meeting of the Materials
Research Society in Boston. Scientific papers describing the experiments
have been submitted to the journals Physical Review Letters and Applied
Physics Letters.

If borne out, the findings would be significant, said Dr. George S. Nolas, a
professor of physics at the University of South Florida and an organizer of
a symposium about thermoelectric devices at the Materials Research Society
meeting. Dr. Nolas had not seen the Eneco paper but said the reported
efficiency was high enough to find practical use and "would be pretty good
news."

Eneco's thermoelectric device is a sandwich of three layers of
semiconductor. One outer layer is heated; the other is kept at room
temperature. The middle layer acts as an insulator to maintain the
temperature difference.

The heat causes electrons to shoot out, some crossing the sandwich to
generate an electrical current. The Eneco researchers added impurities - a
process called doping - to the heated layer to increase the flow of
electrons.

"The region near the hot part is heavily doped, so it boils off electrons,"
Dr. Hagelstein said. "We get more voltage and more current."

He added: "The underlying technology is really very simple. It should be a
very practical, relatively cheap technology."

Leroy Becker, marketing director of Eneco, which is not associated with the
Dutch utility Eneco Energie, said the company hoped to produce a prototype
of a practical device within a year and sell it within two years.

Eneco, a privately held company, was created in 1991 to seek to license
patents on cold fusion after the controversial claim of two University of
Utah scientists that they could produce almost limitless amounts of energy
in a room-temperature flask of water. Eneco also financed follow-up research
on cold fusion, including work by Dr. Hagelstein. The claims for cold fusion
were far overstated, and several years ago, Eneco shifted its focus to
thermoelectric devices.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 06:17:34 2001
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From: Bart Simon <simonb alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: book covers and more
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Hi,

Thanks for all the cover ideas so far... I like Bob's shadow/key image or
at least using shadows and light - that is something that might work well
for a simple cover.

Not meaning to goad Jed any further I also like the idea of showing
McKubre's 90 sig XS heat graph (seriously... I wonder if SRI would want to
charge a royalty for using it). I wanted to put a variety of this great
visual data in the book but had to settle for describing as best I could
and citing references (publisher is very strict on graphics).

On to Jed. There's really no reason to be mean but i'll try to respond a
little. Look - I can't win in a debate with Jed over the relation of the
social to the scientific as he's got way more patience for sticking it out
than I (especially via this medium). So in case anyone here cares (which
i'm not sure they do) here is Jed's main point as I see it: 

> You confuse the human process of doing 
>science, which is fraught with culturally based delusions and "idols," with 
>the content of science itself, which (in part at least) transcends the 
>human imagination and the limits of culture. This vital distinction was 
>first described in detail by F. Bacon in the early 1600s. It is the basis 
>of our Civilization, so I think you should learn more about it.

This is definately a solid position and indeed it a majority opinion shared
by some of CF's worst enemies - Huizenga, Close and Park. So to Jed... with
all due respect I am simply going to agree to disagree here - my position
is indeed that the social stuff is caught up in the content of science.
Science as an institutionalized practice attempts to produce truths which
transcend culture but these transcendent truths (such as they are) are
produced and applied in culture...(I'll see your Bacon and raise you one
"later" Wittgenstein plus a William James).

Let me get at this the way I try to in my book - Jed writes:

>If you were to write about 
>scientists who believe in "creationism" you might make a valuable 
>contribution to sociology, but not if you started mixing up their beliefs 
>with biology, and not if you claimed you book was about biology. The people 
>you describe and quote in your paper know nothing about the actual content 
>of cold fusion research, any more than creationists know about biology, or 
>witch doctors know about blood chemistry.

The problem CF research faces (IMO) is that we currently live in a world
where CF researchers are basically considered to be like creationists. The
claim of the skeptics backed up by mainstream institutions and agencies
that hold the purse strings is that CF researchers confuse "faith" with
"science" and are pathological as a result.

Now look - and please don't misinterpret me on this - Jed and I both AGREE
that this position is hogwash (to put it politely) but here our strategies
diverge. Jed maintains that CF researchers are doing the real science while
skeptics are like the creationists and witch doctors whereas I argue that
everyone in this case - the CF researchers and the skeptically minded - are
doing science (I have reasons for why real creationists and witch doctors
are not doing science but that is another argument where Jed and I will
disagree so never mind). 

The idea from my perspective then is to look at the very social and
sometimes very painful process (as for instance, Ed Storms has described in
starting the thread on integrity) of how the truth will out. In this view
the truth is not something waiting to be discovered in some kind of
mythological eureka moment but rather something that is hard won and etched
in scientific papers, demonstrations, beautiful graphs, institutions,
conversations, rhetoric, politics - in all the stuff scientists do on a
daily basis.  This is what my book (and to a lesser extent the essay Jed
describes) attempts to trace... the story of CF is incomplete not because
CF is real and we are all just waiting for everyone else to come to their
senses but because the realness of CF is and still has to be fought out in
very social spaces. 

So I mean for my book to be a sociological compliment to a book like
Beaudette's - i'm not trying to make the case for cold fusion, i'm trying
to make the case for how folks like McKubre and Jed (in his own way) make
the case for cold fusion... and I want to do this without either side
having to be portrayed as evil or insane or irrational or (add your
favorite derogatory term here).

The sad thing about all this is that as hard a time as Jed gives me I get
it worse from some skeptics who think I am some kind of crazed CF lover and
a disgrace to the academic community - for them, to talk of CF as science
is the heresy... whatareyougonnado? Peace brother.

cheers,
Bart

p.s. please go easy on me Jed
------------------------------------------------------
Bart Simon, Asst. Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Concordia University, LB-687
1455 De Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
Montreal, Quebec, Canada  H3G 1M8

phone: 514-848-2164
email: simonb alcor.concordia.ca
-------------------------------------------------------

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At 09:16 AM 11/28/2001 -0500, Bart wrote:
> > You confuse the human process of doing
> >science, which is fraught with culturally based delusions and "idols," with
> >the content of science itself, which (in part at least) transcends the
> >human imagination and the limits of culture. This vital distinction was
> >first described in detail by F. Bacon in the early 1600s. It is the basis
> >of our Civilization, so I think you should learn more about it.
>
>This is definately a solid position and indeed it a majority opinion shared
>by some of CF's worst enemies - Huizenga, Close and Park. So to Jed... with
>all due respect I am simply going to agree to disagree here - my position
>is indeed that the social stuff is caught up in the content of science.
>Science as an institutionalized practice attempts to produce truths which
>transcend culture but these transcendent truths (such as they are) are
>produced and applied in culture...(I'll see your Bacon and raise you one
>"later" Wittgenstein plus a William James).


   Science is systematized knowledge, and would include thus logically include
both the data, the generated information; with subsequent criticism of that
--directed to what actually was presented.
    The pathologic skeptics do not do that.

======================================================

>Let me get at this the way I try to in my book - Jed writes:
>
> >If you were to write about
> >scientists who believe in "creationism" you might make a valuable
> >contribution to sociology, but not if you started mixing up their beliefs
> >with biology, and not if you claimed you book was about biology. The people
> >you describe and quote in your paper know nothing about the actual content
> >of cold fusion research, any more than creationists know about biology, or
> >witch doctors know about blood chemistry.
>
>The problem CF research faces (IMO) is that we currently live in a world
>where CF researchers are basically considered to be like creationists. The
>claim of the skeptics backed up by mainstream institutions and agencies
>that hold the purse strings is that CF researchers confuse "faith" with
>"science" and are pathological as a result.


   The CF researchers have developed compelling data and useful information 
which is
generally ignored, because it is not accurately discussed.   Thus, it is 
the pathologic
skeptics who are akin to the creationists. It is they who systematically 
ignore what
is actually presented  -- and instead they respond to their own (often 
incorrect)
notions.

  =======================================================

>Now look - and please don't misinterpret me on this - Jed and I both AGREE
>that this position is hogwash (to put it politely) but here our strategies
>diverge. Jed maintains that CF researchers are doing the real science while
>skeptics are like the creationists and witch doctors whereas I argue that
>everyone in this case - the CF researchers and the skeptically minded - are
>doing science (I have reasons for why real creationists and witch doctors
>are not doing science but that is another argument where Jed and I will
>disagree so never mind).


   Jed is correct in this case.  The pathologic skeptics rarely -if ever- 
discuss what
was actually presented or found, and instead usually rely upon a paragraph 
taken out-of-context, or
an inaccurate summary or analysis by someone else.


    The story of CF is incomplete because the altered curves, and actual 
findings, have been
ignored systematically.  The actual data and information generated has thus 
been ignored
(just as terrorism was for the most part ignored until the 911 atrocity).
  As such, corruption and inaccuracy --rather than truth, science, and 
justice-- have so far won out.

         Dr. Mitchell Swartz






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Bart Simon wrote:

by some of CF's worst enemies - Huizenga, Close and Park. So to Jed... with
>all due respect I am simply going to agree to disagree here - my position
>is indeed that the social stuff is caught up in the content of science.
>Science as an institutionalized practice attempts to produce truths which
>transcend culture but these transcendent truths (such as they are) . . .

This is true to some extent, but the main content of science are physical 
events that happen in the laboratory. Simon ignores this part. The main 
content of engineering is a bridge that either stands or falls. The design 
of a bridge reflects many fascinating aspects of society in the choice of 
material, the way the bridge fits the landscape (or does not), the location 
of the bridge and whose economic interests it best serves and so on, but at 
the heart of the structure are physical laws that transcend human culture. 
It is as much a work of nature as man. An experiment in a laboratory is 
also a work of nature -- a naturally occurring phenomenon.

You cannot judge the reality of cold fusion without understanding what 
actually occurs in the laboratory, whereas you can judge it quite easily 
while ignoring the social brouhaha it caused, and the opinions of ignorant 
people like Huizenga, Close and Park. One temperature reading overrules 
them. If a bridge will stand, it does not matter that a million engineers 
and physicists claim it will fall. Phenomena exist outside human society, 
and are not affected by it, even when they are brought to light by human 
actions.


>The claim of the skeptics backed up by mainstream institutions and 
>agencies that hold the purse strings is that CF researchers confuse 
>"faith" with "science" and are pathological as a result.

The claims of the CF scientists are backed up by physical facts revealed in 
experiments. The claims of the skeptics have no basis. They do not even 
pretend they have done experiments or examined the data! CF is science; the 
skeptics are practicing a new form of religion. Anyone can tell the difference.


>Jed maintains that CF researchers are doing the real science while
>skeptics are like the creationists and witch doctors whereas I argue that
>everyone in this case - the CF researchers and the skeptically minded - 
>are doing science

No. You can only do science two ways: in the laboratory when you confront 
physical reality (physical events), or outside the laboratory thinking 
about those events. The skeptically minded people have never heard of the 
events in question. They have never seen the data. Park refuses to look at 
it, therefore it is impossible for him to do science. Physics is about 
physical reality.


>The idea from my perspective then is to look at the very social and
>sometimes very painful process (as for instance, Ed Storms has described 
>in starting the thread on integrity) of how the truth will out.

The truth comes out in the laboratory. The painful process may occur later. 
It is proportional to funding and status. Any theory or experiment, no 
matter how outlandish, will be accepted easily as long as it does not hurt 
scientists' income. Things like string theory and multi-world theory can be 
published in Nature without resistance.

There is no profound reason why Huizenga, Close and Park oppose cold fusion 
and embrace hot fusion. That is their job. If we had the money, and the HF 
people were poor, Huizenga would write books attacking them instead. 
Ethics, beliefs and theory have nothing to do with it. People like McKubre 
tell me there are no important theoretical reasons why CF cannot occur, and 
I expect they are right. In any case, theory never overrules facts.


>In this view the truth is not something waiting to be discovered in some 
>kind of mythological eureka moment but rather something that is hard won 
>and etched in scientific papers, demonstrations, beautiful graphs, 
>institutions, conversations, rhetoric, politics . . .

Nonsense. The truth is revealed in physical events in the laboratory. When 
Mizuno's cell remained hot for days and boiled away 37 liters of water, 
that was the truth, now and forever. All the demonstrations, conversations 
and politics in the world will never overrule that event. That heat after 
death event was like a bridge that stands despite predictions, or the 
Wright airplane that flew on December 17, 1903. In the five-year brouhaha 
following the 1903 flight, most people rejected the Wright's claims, and 
the event was almost lost to history, but it DID happen. A photograph 
exists to prove it. I have a trace of Mizuno's cell thermocouple pen 
recorder, and I have the word of him and his colleagues. They are right, 
the rest of the world is wrong, and ten billion arguments will never change 
reality one iota.


>- in all the stuff scientists do on a daily basis.  This is what my book 
>(and to a lesser extent the essay Jed describes) attempts to trace... the 
>story of CF is incomplete not because CF is real and we are all just 
>waiting for everyone else to come to their senses but because the realness 
>of CF is and still has to be fought out in very social spaces.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. CF exists only in the physical space of the test tube. 
What happens outside the test tube is irrelevant. The question here is not 
what scientists do on a daily basis, it is what palladium does. Truth may 
be rejected by society, trampled and forgotten, but the story is complete 
now, and CF is as real as any phenomenon can be. It is as certain as the 
fact that the Wright airplane does fly under control. Nature settled the 
argument, with macroscopic events like Mizuno's heat after death, and 
Celani's incandescent wire. Nature is the authority here, not me or 
Huizenga. Some questions are never clearly resolved by experiment. Others, 
such as the airplane, the atom bomb, high temperature superconductivity and 
cold fusion are proved in ways that no one can deny.


>So I mean for my book to be a sociological compliment to a book like
>Beaudette's - i'm not trying to make the case for cold fusion, i'm trying
>to make the case for how folks like McKubre and Jed (in his own way) make 
>the case for cold fusion...

The essay does not discuss how McKubre makes his case. It does not mention 
anything about actual experiments, or the macroscopic events that Mizuno 
and others observed.


>. . . and I want to do this without either side having to be portrayed as 
>evil or insane or irrational or (add your favorite derogatory term here).

Except that the other side actually is evil and irrational. Evil is a real 
thing, not a social convention. To ignore it is to distort history. You 
might as well write about Civil Rights in Georgia and treat the KKK as 
morally equivalent to the hundreds of innocent people they slaughtered and 
mangled in the 20th century. Robert Park is a paid flack for the hot fusion 
industry. He refuses to look at data, which is grossly unethical behavior 
for a scientist. He is like a doctor who prescribes a drug without 
bothering to look at the patient's blood pressure. He has repeatedly lied 
to the news media, pretending that he knows something about CF when in fact 
he deliberately keeps himself ignorant.


>The sad thing about all this is that as hard a time as Jed gives me I get
>it worse from some skeptics who think I am some kind of crazed CF lover 
>and a disgrace to the academic community - for them, to talk of CF as 
>science is the heresy... whatareyougonnado?

What do you think you do?!? Bacon answered that question in 1620: You go to 
the laboratory and look at facts. Nature answers all questions, and settles 
all disputes. There is no other method. The skeptics refuse to do this, 
therefore they are not scientists, by definition. They are a disgrace to 
the academic community.

Schwinger was right. The replacement of impartial reviewing by censorship 
will be the death of science, unless these people are stopped. This *is* a 
fight between good and evil. It is a fight between an ancient and noble 
tradition and modern barbarians. They are the U.S. branch of the Taliban, 
bent on turning back the clock and enforcing conformity by means of terror. 
We are the forces of civilization, enlightenment, comfort, progress and 
human dignity. To preserve their money and power, they trample academic 
freedom. They ridicule, harass and fire researchers for publishing data and 
speaking at conferences, and deliberately keep themselves and the public in 
ignorance. The contrast could not be more stark. If Simon thinks these 
groups are somehow equivalent he is morally blinded by his social theories, 
and trendy notions of "cultural relativity" or some other half-baked notion.

- Jed

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Thanks for your comments Mitch... i'm sorry to grab more bandwidth than
this topic is worth but i'll make one small addendum and then i'll try to
desist. Mitch wrote:

> The story of CF is incomplete because the altered curves, and actual 
>findings, have been
>ignored systematically.  The actual data and information generated has thus 
>been ignored
>(just as terrorism was for the most part ignored until the 911 atrocity).
>  As such, corruption and inaccuracy --rather than truth, science, and 
>justice-- have so far won out.

To be honest I care less about the rantings of folks like Park who acts
more as what I call science-boundary worker (like a Science Cop) than a
scientist (in the sense I try to describe). More important are the editors
and reviewers (and regular front line scientists) who unfairly reject CF
articles by Ed and others but I think there is more to this than corruption
and conspiracy (although I am convinced there is definately some conspiracy
involved)... 

The skeptically minded normal scientists are in part able to dismiss
current CF claims because as a consequence of history (1989-90) they
believe the work of CF researchers is a priori wrong so that in the same
way that scientists tend to throw creation science papers in the trash they
also do the same with CF papers not bothering to even consider the
difference. I don't even get the sense that regular run of the mill
scientists give CF a second thought let alone conspire to keep CF research
down. So its not that folks ignore the data so much as they don't even
consider the data to be data in the first place. I think this is far more
intriguing than the idea that folks purposefully choose to ignore CF
data... in my experience human beings simply aren't that reflective.

Finally, what fascinates me about the CF case is that despite all the
hardship CF researchers keep on trucking (I argue in part because
researchers are not working alone and in part because experimental evidence
on a collective level is improving) and this indicates to me that science
(at least in the late 20th century) is more porous to contradictory beliefs
than sociologists and philosophers have previously thought. For my money CF
has proven to be a rather highly successful case of marginalized science
(considering all the claims out there we could choose from) comparable
perhaps to parapsychology (which survives not too badly through its own set
of institutions) but also to the theory of continental drift which managed
to hang in there despite years of "ignoring the data."

cheers,
Bart
------------------------------------------------------
Bart Simon, Asst. Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Concordia University, LB-687
1455 De Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
Montreal, Quebec, Canada  H3G 1M8

phone: 514-848-2164
email: simonb alcor.concordia.ca
-------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:59:00 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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	Please:

	Q:  Does anyone know when the Pentagon was built?


			Thank you

					JHS

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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:59:25 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: cover ideas for my cold fusion book
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>Hello Bart;
>
>Anyway.. content issues aside my editor has now asked about what I would
>like to see for the cover of the book and this being my first book and
>all...

Hum, the socialogy of cold fusion, eh?

What exactly are you going to write about? Socialogy is about people, 
and LENR's are about atoms. I don't see the connection. Unless your 
about going to investigate main stream scientists total refusal to 
look at the evidence that something anomolous is happening. If this 
is the case, I would nominate Robert Parks with a balloom comming out 
of his mouth with "I don't care about your isotopic ratios."


>  i'm stumped. So keeping in mind that this book is about the social
>and cultural aspects of the controversy (although I try to be as accurate
>as possible with respect to techical issues)


I wrote the above paragraph before reading Jed's critique of your 
manuscript. Apparently you don't accept that anything anomolous is 
happening. Well go ask someone in the chemistry department about 
isotopic ratios, The reason I use the word anomolous is because 
higher than usual concentrations of the rare, isotopes that occur in 
nature in the 2% range, don't occur in nature. They can be produced 
one atom at a time in a high energy collider or a nuclear reactor, 
but various researchers are reporting them from the LENR experiments 
in question. So go figure.

>  do any of you have any ideas
>for a good cover - images, artwork, photographs, graphics?  For the moment
>i'll assume that cost is no issue (although it is - basically the publisher
>won't go for anything they need to pay for) because for now i'm just
>looking for ideas.


I'd like to suggest that you read Structure of Scientific Revolutions 
by Thomas Kuhn. I'd also like to call your attention to an 
International Patent by Piantelli, While that machine was not 
economically feasible, there is no question that it was fusioning H 
and D in to He3 with the production of energy at 100+ C temperatures.

>
>Thanks for your help.
>Bart
>
>
>phone: 514-848-2164
>fax: 514-848-4539
>=========================================


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 09:26:48 2001
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Bart Simon wrote:

>More important are the editors and reviewers (and regular front line 
>scientists) who unfairly reject CF articles by Ed and others but I think 
>there is more to this than corruption and conspiracy (although I am 
>convinced there is definately some conspiracy involved)...

It is mainly intellectual laziness. They do not bother to read the papers. 
Their comments in the rejection letters reveal they do not read the papers 
and know nothing about them.


>The skeptically minded normal scientists are in part able to dismiss
>current CF claims because as a consequence of history (1989-90) they
>believe the work of CF researchers is a priori wrong so that in the same
>way that scientists tend to throw creation science papers in the trash . . .

There is a gigantic difference between a biologist who rejects creationism 
and a "normal minded scientist" who dismisses CF! The biologist knows his 
field in detail, and he can give you reasons for his beliefs. The "normal 
minded scientist" is not acting as a scientist at all. He knows nothing 
about the CF data -- he does not even realize that it exists. You cannot 
judge data you have never heard of.


>I don't even get the sense that regular run of the mill scientists give CF 
>a second thought let alone conspire to keep CF research down.

No, they do not. A few powerful people censor the information and keep the 
run of the mill scientists in the dark.


>So its not that folks ignore the data so much as they don't even consider 
>the data to be data in the first place.

Make that: they who don't even know the data exists in the first place. It 
is not their fault that the DoE and the APS is persecuting researchers and 
censoring scientists. On the other hand, when a thousand members of the APS 
applauded Robert Park and others who made venomous, bigoted attacks against 
Pons and Fleischmann, that crowd of people *was* guilty. Not a single 
person in that crowd stood up and said "wait a minute, let us be a little 
more open minded, mistakes are an okay part of science." A scientist, 
doctor or engineer should know his business. He has a professional 
obligation to follow the rules and stick to traditions, and to defend his 
profession against corruption.


>I think this is far more intriguing than the idea that folks purposefully 
>choose to ignore CF data... in my experience human beings simply aren't 
>that reflective.

Some are reflective, and some are not. People who not reflective should not 
become scientists, but many do. People who are not empathetic should not 
become doctors, but some do.


>Finally, what fascinates me about the CF case is that despite all the 
>hardship CF researchers keep on trucking (I argue in part because 
>researchers are not working alone  and in part because experimental 
>evidence on a collective level is improving)

There are two other very important reasons:

1. People are naturally curious and explorative. That is why they spread to 
all continents. Eons ago some people risked their lives to cross the Bering 
Strait and populate North America. Today, some will risk thousands of 
dollars, their reputations and careers in a dogged effort to satisfy their 
own curiosity.

2. CF may lead to a gigantic financial reward. It may rescue the Earth from 
destruction by global warming. It is an important cause, beyond the 
scientific considerations.


>and this indicates to me that science
>(at least in the late 20th century) is more porous to contradictory beliefs
>than sociologists and philosophers have previously thought.

It is less porous than it used to be, or than it ought to be. This is an 
ominous trend.


>For my money CF has proven to be a rather highly successful case of 
>marginalized science (considering all the claims out there we could choose 
>from) comparable perhaps to parapsychology (which survives not too badly 
>through its own set of institutions) but also to the theory of continental 
>drift which managed to hang in there despite years of "ignoring the data."

The data for parapsychology is very close to the noise. (It may be in the 
noise, for all I know.) It has to be mathematically massaged, like the Top 
Quark data. Some of the data for CF is miles above the noise, and some is 
macroscopic, dramatic, and undeniable, like Mizuno's heat after death. 
Parapsychology is supposedly difficult to reproduce, whereas some CF 
experiments, performed repeatedly by world-class organizations such as 
Mitsubishi, Los Alamos, the NRL and the ENEA, are 100% reproducible. The 
two fields are vastly different. CF has far more credibility.

The evidence for continental drift was apparent to anyone with a map and a 
pair of scissors, it seems to me. I do not understand why anyone ever 
denied it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 09:35:54 2001
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Subject: Re: cover ideas for my cold fusion book
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thomas malloy wrote:

>I wrote the above paragraph before reading Jed's critique of your 
>manuscript. Apparently you don't accept that anything anomolous is happening.

I think it would fairer to say he does not discuss or consider the 
possibility that anything anomalous is happening. This would be perfectly 
okay if his essay was strictly about the sociology of CF, and it did not 
purport to discuss or decide the actual content.

I have written essays about people who doubted that the Wright brothers 
flew in 1903, and others who supported them, and about the social effects 
of nascent aviation. That is different from writing about actual flight tests.

By the way, my critique was published here weeks ago. Also, people who have 
not read Simon's essay should not endorse my critique. Perhaps I 
misunderstand Simon's point. He never responded or denied my restatement of 
his position, so I assume he actually does believe we can judge the reality 
of CF by watching scientist's social behavior. I have read similar notions 
in magazines and journals. I think that is a trendy idea in sociology today.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 09:39:45 2001
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On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Bart Simon wrote:

> The problem CF research faces (IMO) is that we currently live in a world
> where CF researchers are basically considered to be like creationists.

How ironic. 

Physicist and Biologist use facts and data to show how the univers, and
then the earth and life on earth, formed and evololved. Creationist start
from the presumption that God made the world, and then work backwards to
explain why the physicist and biologist are wrong with innane arguments
like "the devil is trying to delude you"

Cold fusion research produces fusion ash, heat consistant with that ash
finding, nuclear transformations, and low levels of gammas and neutrons.
Cold fusion skepticts start with the presumption that there is no fusion
and then work backwards to explain that all the findings are errors; magic
leaks, damn lies and statistics, ridicule, and out and out hate. 

And, ironically, compare the CF researcher to a creationist.

> The
> claim of the skeptics backed up by mainstream institutions and agencies
> that hold the purse strings is that CF researchers confuse "faith" with
> "science" and are pathological as a result.

This is called "projection". People accuse others of doing what they
themselves do.
 
> Now look - and please don't misinterpret me on this - Jed and I both AGREE
> that this position is hogwash (to put it politely) but here our strategies
> diverge.

Does Jed know you agree? 

> Jed maintains that CF researchers are doing the real science while
> skeptics are like the creationists and witch doctors whereas I argue that
> everyone in this case - the CF researchers and the skeptically minded - are
> doing science (I have reasons for why real creationists and witch doctors
> are not doing science but that is another argument where Jed and I will
> disagree so never mind). 

Can you show that the skeptics are doing science? I can show that they are
not. 

I'm discovering that most people don't even know what science IS. I bought
a book off Barnes and Nobel via the web on the scientific method and the
author got it completely and utterly WRONG. You talk to others and they
think it's about getting degrees and being published in refereed journals. 

(BTW, there was a person who wrote a spoof paper about absolutly NOTHING
and he got it published in a reputable journal. That most journal articles
are not worth reading was claimed by no less than Feynman himself!) 

> The idea from my perspective then is to look at the very social and
> sometimes very painful process (as for instance, Ed Storms has described in
> starting the thread on integrity) of how the truth will out. In this view
> the truth is not something waiting to be discovered in some kind of
> mythological eureka moment but rather something that is hard won and etched
> in scientific papers, demonstrations, beautiful graphs, institutions,
> conversations, rhetoric, politics - in all the stuff scientists do on a
> daily basis.  This is what my book (and to a lesser extent the essay Jed
> describes) attempts to trace... the story of CF is incomplete not because
> CF is real and we are all just waiting for everyone else to come to their
> senses but because the realness of CF is and still has to be fought out in
> very social spaces. 

There are people who still don't buy Special and General Relativity. Lots
of people don't buy Evolution. So what? 

> So I mean for my book to be a sociological compliment to a book like
> Beaudette's - i'm not trying to make the case for cold fusion, i'm trying
> to make the case for how folks like McKubre and Jed (in his own way) make
> the case for cold fusion... and I want to do this without either side
> having to be portrayed as evil or insane or irrational or (add your
> favorite derogatory term here).

The skeptics ARE irrational. 

Look, most people go into science to appear smart. Appearing smart is not
as easy as being smart, and even if you ARE smart, that has nothing to do
with the scientific method. People who have this social need to appear
smart are not likely to do science that requires them to advance an
unpopular opionion.

The history of science is FILLED with people like this. Check out any
great discovery that seemes counter intuitive, and you will find
"scientist" who attacked it.

Now, that works the other way around too, and you find people's who's need
to appear smart motivates them to do dumb things; like cheat. They tend to
come out with fraudulant "discoveries". I could name a few, but some are
near and dear to the hearts of many of this list. I've made an effort to
scrub these unusual ideas to find the good from the bad.

Oddly, some are legit with total BS as an explaination, like, well, the
electric rocket. The real reason why it works is something else. 

> The sad thing about all this is that as hard a time as Jed gives me I get
> it worse from some skeptics who think I am some kind of crazed CF lover and
> a disgrace to the academic community - for them, to talk of CF as science
> is the heresy... whatareyougonnado? Peace brother.

Good luck in your work. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 09:45:41 2001
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This breakthrough in thermoelectric (TEG) devices by Kucherov & Hagelstein 
is a very noteworthy development in its own right. The portrayal of CF in 
the article is inaccurate and unfair, but any publicity is good publicity.

These TEG will be very handy if CF can be developed.

This article distorts the facts about TEGs too.

I believe Kucherov and Hagelstein think their new technology may ultimately 
allow TEGs with 40% efficiency, which would beat nearly all conventional 
heat engine technology. Aeroderivative gas turbines can do better, but they 
cost a ton of money for the equipment & maintenance, and they do not last 
long. A TEG generator may last for decades, even in a hostile environment, 
such as deep space.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 09:55:17 2001
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From: Bart Simon <simonb alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: clarification... on anomalousness
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Sorry for this -- I need to make another clarification... I apologize if my
explanation of what I am arguing remains unclear.

Thomas Malloy wrote:

>I wrote the above paragraph before reading Jed's critique of your 
>manuscript. Apparently you don't accept that anything anomolous is 
>happening. 

Very crucially this is NOT what I am arguing. Indeed in the case of cold
fusion something very anomalous is happening and if it helps you to know
this I have done some grunt work in a lab helping with some basic CF
experiments and I've experienced this anomalousness (especially when the
scientist I was working with explained it to me). For me and for you the CF
effects are real where we differ is in just how to understand what this
reality is. For you and Jed reality is self-evident (a given) for me it is
constructed (and this is very very different from cultural relativism but
again i'll skip that one). In terms of what pragmatically matters we are
all on the same side of the fence - we all believe in the legitimacy of CF
research (and we try to support that legitimacy in various ways).

What I am arguing contra Jed is that the real anomalousness of cold fusion
is not self-evident in the performance of an experiment or the rendering of
a nice graph and that what counts as anomalous for both CF researchers and
skeptically minded scientists depends on interpretations and arguments that
are grounded in researchers' background experience, knowledge, skill, and
interactions with others. I have talked with enough scientists now to feel
confident in asserting that the data does not just tell things as they
are... reality ("truth" is a better term here but the philosophers refer to
this as certified knowledge as opposed to mere belief) is made by both the
people and the data together.

Let me offer Jed's reply to this -- WRONG, WRONG, WRONG...

Ah... For those interested may I recommend a version of the debate Jed and
I are having that starts with an interesting edited book.

Noretta Koertge (ed.) A House Built on Sand: Exposing Postmodernist Myths
about Science (Oxford 1998).

This title would seemingly support Jed's view of things until you see a
paper in there by William McKinney called, "Where Experiments Fail: Is
"Cold Fusion" Science as Normal?"  This paper takes Jed's (and Mitch's and
Thomas') view of science and truth but using this argues that cold fusion
is not real and the cultural relativist position is to treat it as if it
was so. 

A reply to this paper is offered by Trevor Pinch in the April 1999 issue
(Vol 29, no. 2) of the journal Social Studies of Science and this is
followed by a counter-strike from McKinney in the same journal. In this
instance, Pinch and I share similar views.

If not for any other reason, taking a glance at this debate will give you
some indication of why the cold fusion case is so important for
sociologists, philosophers and historians of science. I thank you for all
your reading suggestions but we are well beyond Bacon, Kuhn and Popper now
folks (i'm sorry if that sounded mean... I actually love Bacon and Kuhn...
its standard reading where I come from).

cheers,
Bart


------------------------------------------------------
Bart Simon, Asst. Professor
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Concordia University, LB-687
1455 De Maisonneuve Blvd. W.
Montreal, Quebec, Canada  H3G 1M8

phone: 514-848-2164
email: simonb alcor.concordia.ca
-------------------------------------------------------

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 10:37:09 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: clarification... on anomalousness
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Bart Simon wrote:

>What I am arguing contra Jed is that the real anomalousness of cold fusion 
>is not self-evident in the performance of an experiment or the rendering 
>of a nice graph

That depends on the experiment. Some are self-evident, others are not. Some 
require careful analysis and interpretation, others produce such a huge 
effect, they constitute visceral or visible proof of heat beyond the limits 
of chemistry. Examples of the latter are rare, but common enough that we 
can be sure they are real. They include Mizuno's heat after death incident, 
the close-up video of the P&F boil-off, and Celani's recent incandescent cell.

This is a very important concept. Some demonstrations are complete and 
self-evident, contrary to Simon's claim. You do not need instruments or any 
understanding of theory to see that an airplane flies and Mizuno's cell 
went beyond chemistry. A caveman watching the performance of that cell 
would understand the implications as clearly as any scientist or engineer 
alive today. He would know this is more heat than any fire can produce. 
Primitive people understood this concept because they had to stoke fires 
all day. That is why the miracle of the Chanukah candles is described in 
the Bible.

There are graphs which show such good data that only a fool would argue 
with them. However, they still require some level of interpretation or 
analysis, which makes qualitatively different from the heat-after-death 
incident. A graph is not an actual physical event that happens before your 
eyes, and convinces you by its nature.


>. . . and that what counts as anomalous for both CF researchers and
>skeptically minded scientists depends on interpretations and arguments 
>that are grounded in researchers' background experience, knowledge, skill, 
>and interactions with others.

None of this applies to the self-evident macroscopic events. It takes no 
knowledge or skill to see that a wire suddenly starts to glow white, or to 
look at it later and see it melted. I suppose you have to know that the 
input power has not changed, and cannot cause the event anyway. (The power 
supplies will not go that high.) Still, any sane person would see it, 
realize what it means, and run for the door, which is what Celani did.

- Jed

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WWII era. I guess

John Schnurer wrote:

>         Please:
>
>         Q:  Does anyone know when the Pentagon was built?
>
>                         Thank you
>
>                                         JHS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 12:56:14 2001
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One of Simon's most important arguments is here: "In this view the truth is 
not something waiting to be discovered in some kind of mythological eureka 
moment but rather something that is hard won and etched in scientific 
papers, demonstrations, beautiful graphs, institutions, conversations, 
rhetoric, politics . . ."

This has been a common theme in recent years. Simon expresses it well here. 
When you chop off the "rhetoric, politics" part, I agree. This is how some 
types of scientific research. Here is a good example, from the public 
relations page of the Fermilab reactor:

"We discovered the top quark not in one lightning stroke, but over a long 
period of time, event by event," says physicist Nick Hadley, a DZero 
collaborator. "No single piece of evidence, no matter how strong, was 
enough to let us claim a discovery. We couldn't be sure we had found the 
top quark until we had seen so many events with the right characteristics 
that there was almost no chance the statistics were fooling us into making 
a false claim."


I have sometimes poked fun at the top quark, but as far as I know it is 
legitimate, and this statement describes a perfectly good way to do research.

In other types of research, people *do* experience Eureka moments. This is 
what Simon fails to understand. In some cases people see dramatic proof 
which erases all doubt that they are confronted with a novel, important, 
phenomenon, and the experiment really did work. Chemists tell me that most 
of their experiments are like this -- it works or it doesn't, and you know 
instantly, by a color change, a burst of heat, or something like that. 
Famous examples of Eureka moments are often described in history books, 
such as the moment the first fission reactor went operational in Chicago in 
1942, or the first test of a long distance telegraph, or a transistor 
feedback test in December 1947. One AT&T researcher remained unconvinced 
that the first transistor was actually amplifying. He said, "Look boys, 
there's one sure test of an amplifier, that you aren't kidding yourselves. 
An amplifier, if fed back on itself . . . will oscillate. This shows that 
it is really producing power -- more than you put in." Brattain did the 
test, and the scope showed it was oscillating. Eureka!

Engineering always produces Eureka moments. The bridge stands up to 
traffic; the computer program executes correctly; the radar detects the 
airplane; the second Model T rolls off the production line a minute after 
the first one. Granted, these are routine, predictable events, but they do 
confirm the original hypothesis that set the project in motion.

Perhaps Simon thinks such definitive moments are becoming rarer in today's 
research environment, or perhaps he does not believe the history books. In 
any case, he is wrong about CF. There have been some highly dramatic 
moments, such as when Pons and Fleischmann demonstrated boiling cells, and 
the morning of April 25, 1991, when Mizuno and Ohmori saw the thermocouple 
pen recorder trace from the cell they had turned off the day before, and 
then felt the cell. Beyond these stark Eureka moments, there have been more 
prosaic but equally convincing tests, such as the sixth, seventh and eighth 
replication in a row at Mitsubishi, at which point things begin to feel 
routine. As Fleischmann said, "when you see it happen often enough, you 
begin to get used to the idea. It is like riding an old bicycle."

Simon's blanket statements about the "mythological eureka moment" and his 
comparison of parapsychology to CF indicate that he does not recognize 
distinctions. He lumps all the different ways of doing science, and the 
different fields, into one box. Actually, there is enormous variety of 
means, methods and attitudes. Some depend on replication and experiment, 
others don't care about replication, others do only observations 
(astronomy). Some must wait months for a statistical picture to emerge (the 
top quark), others decide the issue with a single test showing an 
oscillation on an oscilloscope (the transistor). Because the goals and 
tools are different, methods and attitudes are as varied as they are in 
other institutions, such as agriculture and education. You use one method 
to teach small children, another for college students, and another for 
prisoners serving hard time. Some kinds of science do produce Eureka 
moments, others do not. Fortunately, cold fusion does, which puts it on a 
much firmer basis than, say, psychology, parapsychology or sociology.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 13:03:25 2001
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:06:05 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Please:
> 
>         Q:  Does anyone know when the Pentagon was built?
> 
>                         Thank you
> 
>                                         JHS

First occupancy:  30 April 1942

Completion:  15 January 1943

Terry

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From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
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John,
There was a recent ducumentary, on the History Channel I believe, and it
said that construction was started in 1940, or 1941.

Hank



On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Terry Blanton wrote:

> John Schnurer wrote:
> > 
> >         Please:
> > 
> >         Q:  Does anyone know when the Pentagon was built?
> > 
> >                         Thank you
> > 
> >                                         JHS
> 
> First occupancy:  30 April 1942
> 
> Completion:  15 January 1943
> 
> Terry
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 14:38:29 2001
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Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 17:43:37 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Looking for Morey B King  E mail 
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  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

--fASLqRf15877.1006984347/college.antioch-college.edu
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	Anyone please, know how to find the correct E mail for Morey B
King ?



mbking42 earthlink.net is all I have and it does not seem to work.


--fASLqRf15877.1006984347/college.antioch-college.edu--

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: clarification... on anomalousness
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:26:22 +1100
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:34:32 -0500:
[snip]
>input power has not changed, and cannot cause the event anyway. (The power 
>supplies will not go that high.) Still, any sane person would see it, 
>realize what it means, and run for the door, which is what Celani did.
[snip]
Hi Jed,

Where is this written up?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: book covers and more
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:25:05 +1100
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:23:49 -0500:
[snip]
>Make that: they who don't even know the data exists in the first place. It 
>is not their fault that the DoE and the APS is persecuting researchers and 
>censoring scientists. On the other hand, when a thousand members of the APS 
>applauded Robert Park and others who made venomous, bigoted attacks against 
>Pons and Fleischmann, that crowd of people *was* guilty. 

Now a photo of this event would make a good book cover ;)

>Not a single 
>person in that crowd stood up and said "wait a minute, let us be a little 
>more open minded, mistakes are an okay part of science." A scientist, 
>doctor or engineer should know his business. He has a professional 
>obligation to follow the rules and stick to traditions, and to defend his 
>profession against corruption.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 19:39:15 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Horace <blutransform@wp.pl>
Subject: Re: Latest email virus plague: badtransB
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:38:31 -0500
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On Monday 26 November 2001 14:43, Horace wrote:
> After reading the following article, more of us might join the club of
> Stephen Lajoie...
>
> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1436-2001Nov22.html>http://
>www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1436-2001Nov22.html
>
> At 17:51 2001-11-26, Stephen Lajoie you wrote:
> >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, William Beaty wrote:
> >>  It spreads fast because it can use some versions of MS Outlook
> >> to run itself when viewed (without the victim having to open the
> >> infected attachments.)
> >
> >I've had it with Micorsoft. Unix had anticipated and worked out the
> >problems with this, and Microsoft went ahead and made a virus enhanced
> >operating system. They can't say they didn't know, they knew about Unix.
> >It appears their motivation was to make it possible to force unwanted
> >advertising on the computer user.
> >
> >When are people going to wake up and switch to linux? I have my system on
> >dual boot; unfortunatly, I need Windows for Mathcad and similar programs.
> >I'm not buying that Windows XP, that's just gasoline on the fire.

Horace,
	For some, like me, you are preaching to the choir;  but for others
who are stuck with the 'comfortable' old windows, the new windows may
shock them not a little bit the first time that they have to go begging to
Microsoft to allow them to use the software that they 'bought'.........the
'authorization' from them to open 'XP' for use for more than 14 or so days.
The real losers are those who bought Packard-Bell type machines with
XP installed and only a 'recovery disk' for a backup.  Boy are they gonna
flip when they upgrade a processer for more speed and the operating
system DIES.  Then they will have to prove to the satisfaction of Microsoft
that they are not a 'pirate', and really beg and kiss ass to get a 
're-authorization'.  This will probably come with a long form and a financial
disclosure statement so that you can happily wallow in spam forever.
The possibilities are endless.  When Microsoft's 'Hailstorm' project is
fully implemented, users will only have one year or even month to
month 'temporary authorizations', kinda like rent.  These consumers will
even be encouraged to use 'application service providers' for their
data and office applications.  That's right, Excel and Access could become
web bots that you rent by the month.....or even by the byte.

By the way, I use S.u.S.E. and there is a program in that distro called
Mupad.  It is from www.sciface.com on the web, and takes about 45
megabytes on the disk.  It might be pretty good.  And I have not seen
anything from Microsoft that StarOffice 5.2 from Sun cannot do and
maybe do better.  Certainly a LOT less nosy than any Bill Gates outfit.
I ain't fergettin how he looked for a wife.  Made them go on 'virtual
dates' and fill out applications to go 'out' with him.....go figure!

By the way again, S.u.S.E. had a top notch file shredder.  On a dual booting
system that knows all about windows, this program is a stone cold killer
of files that windows refuses to delete, like the _Restore secret directories
on WinME and Win2000 and XP systems that hold info on every web
page you have seen and every file you have accessed...when....and how
long for government surveillance and private commercial purposes.

Standing Bear
rockcast net-link.net

  running S.u.S.E.  7.2 on an Athlon 1.4 gHz, 512MB white box triple 
booting win98 (games), S.u.S.E., and winNT 4.0 (toy).  Suse runs on
its own hard drive and the windows environments don't know it is even
there.   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 28 19:50:06 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Stephen Lajoie <lajoie@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: A question of integrity
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:51:13 -0500
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On Monday 26 November 2001 16:07, Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> > >The Michelson Morely experiment has been repeated many times. The whole
> > >point of the experiment is that it can detect such differences. Yes, it
> > > is noticeable.
> >
> > I expect the M&M results were correct, and special relativity has been
> > confirmed by several other methods, but in point of fact this experiment
> > was NOT repeated many times. It was repeated only once, as far as I know,
> > by Dayton Miller in the early 1920s, who used a much better apparatus.
> > His
>
> http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/RelWWW/tests.html
>
> Also, I believe you will find that many of the laser gyro's wouldn't work
> if the speed of light was not constant.
>
> > experiment won the 1925 AAAS national prize in physics. It contradicted
> > M&M's result. Miller observed clear evidence that there is a difference
> > in the speed of light from different stars, in a good fit with the aether
> > wind hypothesis. Einstein and others agreed this was a good experiment.
> > However, special relativity became popular, and very useful as a tool.
> > Other evidence for the theory accumulated. Gradually, the Miller research
> > was forgotten. In 1955 a team re-analyzed Miller's results and came to
> > the tentative conclusion that his apparatus was affected by temperature.
>
> Yes. So why even bring it up?
>
> > This is described in H. Collins, T. Pinch, "The Golem," p. 39 - 43. If
> > this account is correct, I would say this aspect of the theory remains
> > unsettled.
> >
> > - Jed

The speed of light is like the speed of sound, changes in every medium
it is found in.  We have even slowed it down so much that an old
Volkswagen could pass it.  What's a vacuum anyway.  Certainly not 
space.  Lots of stuff in space!  Particles, gases, rocks, rogue planets
and stars....not a complete vacuum really anywhere.  Scientists before
the Zweien Weltenkreigen thought that the speed of sound would 
never be exceeded either.   They figured that such a craft foolhardy
enough to attempt it would shake apart.  They were wrong then, and
GR religious quacks who substitute blind faith as a cover for a lack
of intelligence will be proved wrong here as well.  Already the
government knows better in their really serious projects.  Bought one
of Einstein's old books published in the 20's.  It had more terms in
the energy equations than I saw when I studied engineering at
university.  Maybe he should be checked up on.  Energy equations
are based ultimately on force equations anyway, and the force
equations that we have been using do not take into account
impact forces.  They are incomplete without including derivative
terms describing onsets of acceleration, time varying in three or
more dimensions and higher derivatives.

Standing Bear
rockcast net-link.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 01:52:47 2001
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: book covers and more
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Jed wrote:

<<Except that the other side actually is evil and irrational.>>

<< To preserve their money and power, they trample academic
freedom. They ridicule, harass and fire researchers for publishing data and
speaking at conferences, and deliberately keep themselves and the public in
ignorance.>>

This doesn't fit with my notion of true evil. Evil would be if the DOE,
Parks etc had seen the data, recognised that there was a real phenomenon
that would be of benefit to the majority of human kind, and then suppressed
and vilified it to "preserve their money and power". Turning a blind eye and
scoffing is evidence of bad behaviour, greed or stupidity or all three. To
be evil requires conscious knowledge that the truth one is trying to clamp
down on would be beneficial. Ignorance and refusal to look is something
else.
    Having said all that, I believe that far more damage is done by
bad/stupid/ignorant/arrogant people (as is the case in CF scepticism) than
is ever done by truly evil people.

Nick Palmer

P.S. My apologies for posting the NY times article on TEG's after Eugene had
already posted it.  I hadn't seen all my email before I sent it.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 06:54:42 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: clarification... on anomalousness
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> >input power has not changed, and cannot cause the event anyway. (The power
> >supplies will not go that high.) Still, any sane person would see it,
> >realize what it means, and run for the door, which is what Celani did.
>[snip]
>Hi Jed,
>
>Where is this written up?

It just happened a few weeks before the JCF-3 conference (October 25). 
Celani described the event during his presentation. I hope he writes it up 
soon. He had good SEM photos of the melting and other damage to the 
cathode. The cell was not equipped for calorimetry, so he can only estimate 
how hot got, and how long the intense heat continued. It probably lasted 
about hour with the peak output for about 5 minutes.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 08:08:53 2001
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: tokamak
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Hey, I just noticed that the UW in Seattle has an opening for a fun job as
a lab tech.   It's a fusion research project, w/tokamak and everything. 
Maybe I'll end up getting a paycheck from the hot fusion research
establishment!    :) 

http://www.aa.washington.edu/AERP/HIT/hit.html
http://www.aa.washington.edu/AERP/HIT/


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 08:33:54 2001
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Subject: Best Linux
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On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Standing Bear wrote:


I've installed an old Red Hat 6.2 from Cheapbytes.com.

So, you recommend S.u.S.E.? What is the advantage?

[snip tale of future Microsoft Horrors]

> By the way, I use S.u.S.E. and there is a program in that distro called
> Mupad.  It is from www.sciface.com on the web, and takes about 45
> megabytes on the disk.  It might be pretty good.  And I have not seen
> anything from Microsoft that StarOffice 5.2 from Sun cannot do and
> maybe do better.  Certainly a LOT less nosy than any Bill Gates outfit.
> I ain't fergettin how he looked for a wife.  Made them go on 'virtual
> dates' and fill out applications to go 'out' with him.....go figure!
> 
> By the way again, S.u.S.E. had a top notch file shredder.  On a dual booting
> system that knows all about windows, this program is a stone cold killer
> of files that windows refuses to delete, like the _Restore secret directories
> on WinME and Win2000 and XP systems that hold info on every web
> page you have seen and every file you have accessed...when....and how
> long for government surveillance and private commercial purposes.
> 
> Standing Bear
> rockcast net-link.net
> 
>   running S.u.S.E.  7.2 on an Athlon 1.4 gHz, 512MB white box triple 
> booting win98 (games), S.u.S.E., and winNT 4.0 (toy).  Suse runs on
> its own hard drive and the windows environments don't know it is even
> there.   
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 10:31:01 2001
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Alternative operating systems like Linux or the Macintosh OS do not run the 
programs I need, such as voice input and a word processor that supports 
Japanese characters.

I do not know the details, but I doubt these alternative systems are really 
more bullet-proof against hackers than Windows. The reason Windows is 
attacked so often is the same reason it supports so many different 
programs: because it is so popular. If 90% of the computers in the world 
ran Linux instead, the hackers would concentrate on Linux and they would 
soon find ways to put worms into it. I have read that much of the weakness 
is in the Internet structure, which was designed to share information 
between open, trusting universities.

The parallels between computer viruses and biology are uncanny. Windows is 
vulnerable to computer viruses for the same reason popular hybrid corn 
varieties are vulnerable to bacteria, fungus and so on. Computers and 
agriculture need more biodiversity to remain healthy and limit the spread 
of disease, but biodiversity is uneconomical to programmers and farmers. 
Everyone wants the optimum solution; no one wants to sacrifice his own 
profit to improve the health of the system as a whole.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 12:12:09 2001
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Subject: Re: Jean-Pierre Vigier & cold fusion (pt 1)
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Hi Peter, Jean DLG, Jed, Bart, Robin, Stephen, Nick & all !

> 29 July 2001 you send a message to the vortex group
> that you interviewed J.P Vigier and that the article probably
> would be online  www.sciences-et-avenir.com.
> Please let me know where the article was published.
> Peter van Noorden

The article was delayed for a while. Then finally it was on again and we
just finished the lay-out/PAO part. It will definitely be on the newstands
around December 25th (what a gift !). Now, I'm not sure about the on-line
version, since Sciences & Avenir doesn't put all its concent for free on the
web immediately, for obvious reasons. Normally they select one or two
articles, and put the other ones in the archives a few months later.

I wish I could say more on Zvonko Maric's Vigier-inspired experiment
(lithium 7 in capillaries, proton beam (plasma focus), intense magnetic
field, and bingo - creation of helium and 1000° C excess heat, allegedly on
a perfectly reproducible basis). I talked briefly to Maric on the phone,
asking why the hell he had a special lab built in some sort of cave. He said
it is for preventing interference with cosmic rays. He sent me 2 pictures of
the set-up, which I meant to post for the list, unfortunately they
disappeared in a HD crash. I asked him to send them again but so far we
received nothing, so the article will appear without pictures of the
set-up - but we commissioned a photographer for a beautiful pic of Vigier...
Anyway, the pictures seemed rather meaningless to me. The whole thingamajig
looks like a big array of colourful spaghettis, and the plasma focus, with
its cover on, looks like a big old pressure cooker. I know Maric has some
schematics too. If someone is seriously interest I suggest to ask Maric
directly
maric phy.bg.ac.yu
or his assistant Dusan Jovanovic, I think he's the one who sent the pictures
djovanov phy.bg.ac.yu
They have a web site at Belgrad's Institute of Physics, but so far I didn't
see anything on the experiment.
www.phy.bg.ac.yu/main.html

Back to my article, it's part of 12 pages special on "Heretics of science".
I wrote all of it. The other heretics are Jacques Benveniste, Halton Arp,
Hannes Alvén and the "electric universe" crowd, Fred Hoyle (R.I.P.) and -
boooo ! - Peter Duesberg (I thoroughly disagree with Duesberg's view on AIDS
but as heretics go he had his place here).

BTW -  As a science writer specializing in "hereticology", I strongly
support Bart Simon's point of view about science as an eminently social
construct. Cold fusion is heresy right now, and will eventually become
mainstream, not only through good experimental work, but also through many
other factors, economic, social, political, cultural, philosophical,
mediatic, personal, and so on. Thousands of books and essays brilliantly
support this view, from Bachelard and Koyre to Kuhn, Feyerabend, Pinch,
Stengers, Latour, etc... Ironically, Jed doesn't seem to realize he's saying
exactly that ! If cold fusion has been clearly and unequivocally
demonstrated in the laboratory (and I'm sure it is), then the non-acceptance
is definitely extra-scientific... (ooops ! now I goota run for cover :-)

But, of course, as Vigier also told quite a few times in this interview,
nature is the sole and final judge.

PS - I will post soon a "part 2" from Vigier's interview

Cheers to all


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 12:34:29 2001
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Hi All,

I think I have an idea on Microsoft what is doing and its purpose. In this post I also exposed an effective and stealthy anti-competitive practice technique of MS.

Go back to before PC era. There were only mainframes. Suppose a computer company give services to anybody to use mainframe for personal usage for all purpose, with little fee or almost free, but with one condition, What ever the user write on that compute
r, all intellectual property would be belong not to the user but to the company. (It would be a bright idea to give away paper made calendar planner to people, and write a small notice inside, stating anything be written on this planner will become proper
ty of planner supplier company. I am wondering the law system of U.S. allows such a thing? But the below MS legal notice imply that is possible)

How this model can be used on PC? Is it impossible while user is owner of hardware and software, while it has full rights on operating the computer? No, it is possible unfortunately. There are many ways.

In principle, the software controls the computer and the data, not the user. But why a user load a program into his computer restricting its rights, following policies on interest of the software company and of third parties instead of him? Wouldn't user 
stop using such a misbehaving software and purge it from his computer? Probably no. Because:
(skip these reasons going too long)

- User dont care about misbehaviors at all. As long the software is useful, rest is not important. In real world nobody is perfect, nobody is innocent. One can use a pirated copy of software, etc., so if the software misbehavior is tolerable in some exten
d.

- User is not aware of his abuse by the software. Either a software doing nasty things in secrecy, or convince user that it does is not bad or in benefit of the user.

- User knows about misbehaviors, but also know he have no other option, the software he would use next could be worse.

- User cannot get rid of the software because software does not uninstall itself completely. It may had changed operating system settings and added its own settings, there is no method to restore it. A common practice of misbehaving software is changing s
ettings of others programs, adding menu items, shortcuts to specific web pages, so user forced to visit or exchange data with these sites without user notification and authorization. This works even after the software is "uninstalled".

- User cannot get rid of the software because operating system hijacking. The software had altered the operating system so it is not removable. Actually the software is not designed to be unistalled. Please note that reinstalling the Windows does not help
, because reinstalling Windows does not clean up extra dlls and drivers, and extra registry settings implanted by the applications.

- User cannot get rid of the software because data hijacking. The program stored user data in propriety format, in obscure way, no export method is provided. User data will become unusable without this specific software. 


If one examine the Windows operating system, he could see it was crafted very ingenuously for this purpose. Main design rules of operating system are violated by Windows. These are layers to separate operating system from applications, separating operatin
g system configuration from application programs, separating data from programs. These layers are removed in Windows. MS mix virtually inseparably everything in one soup.

By default settings, it force user to store user data in deep operating system directories, it store some operating system configurations on directories apparently dedicated to applications and user data, rendering the the directory structure untouchable.
 This is hijacking. It use unnecessary complications and obscurifications to prevent user configure its computer, Instead, it encourage to applications, (its own and third parties) modify computer configuration without user permission and notification. On
ce a program alter the computer, user have no chance to know it, and not able to restore computer to initial state. (Windows ME said to have such a feature, to restore computer to a past state, but in expense of lost of user data generated in that period)
. 

An other effective way to restrict user rights and control on programs is providing them as services, specially as installable or online services. Actually, end user licensee agreement (EULA) of one of these online services claim rights on user data, for 
example MS online services passport license agreement dated March 31,2001, http://www.passport.com/Consumer/TermsOfUse.asp (but revised August 1, 2001)

states:

"LICENSE TO MICROSOFT

By posting messages, uploading files, inputting data, submitting any feedback or suggestions, or engaging in any other form of communication with or through the Passport Web Site, you warrant and represent that you own or otherwise control the rights nece
ssary to do so and you are granting Microsoft and its affiliated companies permission to:


Use, modify, copy, distribute, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, reproduce, publish, sublicense, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any such communication. 
Sublicense to third parties the unrestricted right to exercise any of the foregoing rights granted with respect to the communication. 
Publish your name in connection with any such communication. 
The foregoing grants shall include the right to exploit any proprietary rights in such communication, including but not limited to rights under copyright, trademark, service mark or patent laws under any relevant jurisdiction. No compensation will be paid
 with respect to Microsoft's use of the materials contained within such communication. Microsoft is under no obligation to post or use any materials you may provide and may remove such materials at any time in Microsoft's sole discretion."

This page is rewritten at  Aug. 1,2001 probably after it is "discovered", and no longer include these sentences.

Microsoft pushing technologies to develop online services, not only to provide, distribute and share data, but for handling private data and intellectual property of user. Online services allowed to full control of user computer by service providers, incl
uding to collect data from user, install advertisements channels, actually anything they wants. User would not have any control on his computer rather than the on/off switch partly. 

These online services would be typically licenses by monthly fee basis like ISP's

Many PC users would initially enjoyed by online services which configure their computer automatically and reduce initial software costs. But these services by taking full control of the computer will expose the user to specific channels for advertisements
, for shopping and in all over activities where money taking account. In the early times of internet, America Online Company giving email and other online services, by default does not connect user to internet but connect it to its own network which popul
ated by its affiliated companies and pretend as Internet. Connecting to real network was very cumbersome, and AOL internet connection was so slow, loading a page of few KB in size took minutes. So, user without having other experience of internet think th
is "other part" of the Internet was a damn thing. Even a user success to access to internet by AOL browser, browser simply not supporting required HTML standard would fail to display normal web pages, but only able to display pages designed for AOL browse
r, which are on AOL internal network. This example show how the abuse of user will go. The experience that I described above actually contributed the death of Dr. Ihsan Fahri, our very close friend who lived part time in Florida and Istanbul. She wrote a 
scientific book and tried to publish it. Unfortunately, she was using AOL services. She was not able access resources on internet and correspond with her colleagues via AOL software and service, causing lot of problems and stress. She died in stress crisi
s while talking in phone with the publisher who did everything wrong. 

As I said above, taking over a computer by online service provider is not limited to remove the privacy of user expose them to specific channels, to expose to advertisements and propaganda, but also force them to do things they wants. As we are mostly dep
endent to computers in our daily life, this dependency will be used by companies to enclave us.

BTW, most effective anticompetitive practice MS is doing against independent software developers like me comes naturally. MS write the operating system and also programs. Naturally every  software comes with lot of bugs. MS test bugs of operating system w
ith own applications.
They clear bugs surfaced by running their programs. Eventually, lot of hidden bugs remains. When other parties program runs, these bugs appears, but MS never fix these bugs. So other parties fell into trouble, their costs increases, developing times incre
ase, and they can not compete with MS
applications. Even, many times MS dont fix bugs belong operating systems directly which appears with their own applications, but include fixes bundled with its applications which are affected. These patches fix bugs of operating system dynamically or by o
ther means, so the fixes are only effective while the application is running, or exclusive to MS application, so it would not help other parties. 

When the issue is security, that are bugs causing security problems, users are directly affected by these bugs. But MS again dont care about it, actually dont care anything beside its profit and extending its kingdom. It dont afraid to lose customers, bec
ause it have other anticompetitive methods to increase their marketing share. Now it try to suppress full disclosure of security bugs, by force of money and with demonizing independent security experts who find security holes and publish them with a delay
 after noticing the company of the vulnerable software. This allow the sw company prepare a patch prior bug is published. Probably MS will not satisfy with these measures, but will try to make illegal to publish bugs without permission. A law similar to D
MCA.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 12:40:00 2001
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Hi,

I wrote a lengthy post on vortexb on ms stuff. 


Standing Bear wrote:
[snip]
> The possibilities are endless.  When Microsoft's 'Hailstorm' project is
> fully implemented, users will only have one year or even month to
> month 'temporary authorizations', kinda like rent.  These consumers will
> even be encouraged to use 'application service providers' for their
> data and office applications.  That's right, Excel and Access could become
> web bots that you rent by the month.....or even by the byte.
> 
[snip]

I tried to expain this tendance by removing user controls and rights on personal computer strategy.

Regards, hamdi

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 12:58:47 2001
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Sorry, it was for vortexb, as you see from "To:" line :(, but posted here due to my mail client silliness.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 15:59:44 2001
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From: "Ryan Hopkins" <thebishop usadatanet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: tokamak
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:55:55 -0500
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that is the coolest thing I've seen today. Have you heard back from them
yet?
Ryan

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Beaty" <billb eskimo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:05 AM
Subject: tokamak


>
> Hey, I just noticed that the UW in Seattle has an opening for a fun job as
> a lab tech.   It's a fusion research project, w/tokamak and everything.
> Maybe I'll end up getting a paycheck from the hot fusion research
> establishment!    :)
>
> http://www.aa.washington.edu/AERP/HIT/hit.html
> http://www.aa.washington.edu/AERP/HIT/
>
>
>
((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 16:02:18 2001
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From: "Hoyt Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns home.com>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> 
> ...I do not know the details, but I doubt these alternative systems are really
> more bullet-proof against hackers than Windows. The reason Windows is
> attacked so often is the same reason it supports so many different
> programs: because it is so popular. If 90% of the computers in the world
> ran Linux instead, the hackers would concentrate on Linux and they would
> soon find ways to put worms into it. I have read that much of the weakness...

I think a reason Linux is more immune is that it is a
UNIX variant, and UNIX runs
at universities such as Berkeley and Stanford to
support thousands of users.

Where better than Berkeley to bullet-proof a computer
environment with all those
genius computer hacker students?  It's been running
long enough to almost guarantee
all holes have been plugged. Furthermore, UNIX comes in
flavors that meet DOD
security standards.  It is inherent in UNIX that unless
you get the ROOT password,
system files are just not accessible at all--it is very
good at protecting itself.

Best Regards,
Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 16:29:04 2001
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Hoyt Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns home.com>
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	Dear Folks,

	The primary reason it seems windows is so vulnerable is because
MACRO VIRUSES are the most prevalent type and any MS Word message or other
transmission which carries a "macro" with it may carry a malware (meaning
bad or not nice-guy code) macro with it.
	A "macro" is a small or not-so-small block of executable code that
is Supposed to make your like easier and is part of the MS Word file ....
a macro may open or close a message or document automatically.... or may
do other stuff I will not list here.

	The other primary avenues of vulnerabilities include but are not
limited to:

	XML
	Active-X
	anything carrying a Macro
	malware of various types


	To learn more you can begin by going to the journal

	
	http://www.infosecuritymag.com/
		
	http://www.icsalabs.com/index.shtml

	Anti-Virus Product Developers Consortium

                                  Welcome to the ICSA Labs Anti-Virus
site, your reliable source for up-to-date information on computer viruses,
worms, and the newest forms of malicious code.  The growth of malicious
programs has steadily increased from annoyance to a major security threat
to all communities of Internet users and businesses. ICSA Labs helps
anti-virus product developers address these threats with our Product
Certification programs and we are a central source of virus alerts, hoax
information, and breaking industry news for thousands of users and
businesses worldwide. 
                  
	 ICSA Labs Virus Alerts
	


				J

	Viruses are mostly misunderstood by the public in general.
	You can begin to educate yourselves, above.


On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Hoyt Stearns Jr. wrote:

> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > 
> > ...I do not know the details, but I doubt these alternative systems are really
> > more bullet-proof against hackers than Windows. The reason Windows is
> > attacked so often is the same reason it supports so many different
> > programs: because it is so popular. If 90% of the computers in the world
> > ran Linux instead, the hackers would concentrate on Linux and they would
> > soon find ways to put worms into it. I have read that much of the weakness...
> 
> I think a reason Linux is more immune is that it is a
> UNIX variant, and UNIX runs
> at universities such as Berkeley and Stanford to
> support thousands of users.
> 
> Where better than Berkeley to bullet-proof a computer
> environment with all those
> genius computer hacker students?  It's been running
> long enough to almost guarantee
> all holes have been plugged. Furthermore, UNIX comes in
> flavors that meet DOD
> security standards.  It is inherent in UNIX that unless
> you get the ROOT password,
> system files are just not accessible at all--it is very
> good at protecting itself.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Hoyt Stearns
> Scottsdale, Arizona
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 20:04:22 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>,
        "Hoyt Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns home.com>
Subject: Re: Linux & viruses
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:01:09 -0500
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On Thursday 29 November 2001 19:33, John Schnurer wrote:
> Dear Folks,
>
> 	The primary reason it seems windows is so vulnerable is because
> MACRO VIRUSES are the most prevalent type and any MS Word message or other
> transmission which carries a "macro" with it may carry a malware (meaning
> bad or not nice-guy code) macro with it.
> 	A "macro" is a small or not-so-small block of executable code that
> is Supposed to make your like easier and is part of the MS Word file ....
> a macro may open or close a message or document automatically.... or may
> do other stuff I will not list here.
>
> 	The other primary avenues of vulnerabilities include but are not
> limited to:
>
> 	XML
> 	Active-X
> 	anything carrying a Macro
> 	malware of various types
>
>
> 	To learn more you can begin by going to the journal
>
>
> 	http://www.infosecuritymag.com/
>
> 	http://www.icsalabs.com/index.shtml
>
> 	Anti-Virus Product Developers Consortium
>
>                                   Welcome to the ICSA Labs Anti-Virus
> site, your reliable source for up-to-date information on computer viruses,
> worms, and the newest forms of malicious code.  The growth of malicious
> programs has steadily increased from annoyance to a major security threat
> to all communities of Internet users and businesses. ICSA Labs helps
> anti-virus product developers address these threats with our Product
> Certification programs and we are a central source of virus alerts, hoax
> information, and breaking industry news for thousands of users and
> businesses worldwide.
>
> 	 ICSA Labs Virus Alerts
>
>
>
> 				J
>
> 	Viruses are mostly misunderstood by the public in general.
> 	You can begin to educate yourselves, above.
>
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Hoyt Stearns Jr. wrote:
> > Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > > ...I do not know the details, but I doubt these alternative systems are
> > > really more bullet-proof against hackers than Windows. The reason
> > > Windows is attacked so often is the same reason it supports so many
> > > different programs: because it is so popular. If 90% of the computers
> > > in the world ran Linux instead, the hackers would concentrate on Linux
> > > and they would soon find ways to put worms into it. I have read that
> > > much of the weakness...
> >
> > I think a reason Linux is more immune is that it is a
> > UNIX variant, and UNIX runs
> > at universities such as Berkeley and Stanford to
> > support thousands of users.
> >
> > Where better than Berkeley to bullet-proof a computer
> > environment with all those
> > genius computer hacker students?  It's been running
> > long enough to almost guarantee
> > all holes have been plugged. Furthermore, UNIX comes in
> > flavors that meet DOD
> > security standards.  It is inherent in UNIX that unless
> > you get the ROOT password,
> > system files are just not accessible at all--it is very
> > good at protecting itself.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Hoyt Stearns
> > Scottsdale, Arizona

Thanks Hoyt
     For setting the record straighter.  I doubt you will convince
him any more than you could get Bin Laden to celebrate
Christmas and put up a tree and light it in the middle
of Kabul in front of Abdul Rashid Dostum's Northern Alliance
fighters.  In my SuSE, today I noticed some packages that
were optimized for Japanese......word processors.  Even
the 'SuseHilfe-pagen are in many languages, and the
interface can be in any language from Catalan to Croatian
to Chinese Big Five!  So much for lack of foreign language
support.  I know that windows supports some languages,
but you have to pay for everything that you get, and what
you get is grudgingly delivered.   I know, my double booting
system has more windows programs than may windows
single booters.  Over 400,000 files spread over over 20
partitions and thousands of directories.  Bought one program,
'Deluxe Universal Translator' that has 40 languages and 
takes over 500 MB on one partition (keep DOS partitions
down to 2GB per partition to keep cluster sizes down, and
try to make at least 2 FAT16 partitions to enable old war
horse DOS hex dump programs to hexadecimal edit questionable
programs.  FAT32 files have ownership attributes that are
undocumented and users are NOT the superuser as in
UNIX.  Microsoft and/or its designees are.  Anyway, that
language program gave me?lots of trouble until I found out
by accident that a large 'discount' house sold me a beta
program that was older than the retail version.....on SALE
no less!?   I wrote the company and they sent me a current
version, so at least I got service out of them.   
Linux, on the other hand, has some of the same stuff...FREE!


Standing Bear
rockcast net-link.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 29 20:07:41 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Stephen Lajoie <lajoie@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Best Linux
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 23:08:40 -0500
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The advantage is that you get 7 CDs and a DVD, all jam packed
with software of just about every description.  This is not
shovel ware sports fans.  It is not an install disk and a half full
data disk with a third disk thrown in with a bunch of 'on line'
books that made it onto that CD because they could not
get themselves sold in stores.  These are completely full of
programs.  Like Fortran-77, C, IBM DB2,  PostGRESL, StarOffice,
Modula-2, C++ compilers, Lisp, Many editors including
TeX and Ghostview that can edit pdf files..........
.....need I say more?

Standing Bear
rockcast net-link.net











On Thursday 29 November 2001 11:30, Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Standing Bear wrote:
>
>
> I've installed an old Red Hat 6.2 from Cheapbytes.com.
>
> So, you recommend S.u.S.E.? What is the advantage?
>
> [snip tale of future Microsoft Horrors]
>
> > By the way, I use S.u.S.E. and there is a program in that distro called
> > Mupad.  It is from www.sciface.com on the web, and takes about 45
> > megabytes on the disk.  It might be pretty good.  And I have not seen
> > anything from Microsoft that StarOffice 5.2 from Sun cannot do and
> > maybe do better.  Certainly a LOT less nosy than any Bill Gates outfit.
> > I ain't fergettin how he looked for a wife.  Made them go on 'virtual
> > dates' and fill out applications to go 'out' with him.....go figure!
> >
> > By the way again, S.u.S.E. had a top notch file shredder.  On a dual
> > booting system that knows all about windows, this program is a stone cold
> > killer of files that windows refuses to delete, like the _Restore secret
> > directories on WinME and Win2000 and XP systems that hold info on every
> > web
> > page you have seen and every file you have accessed...when....and how
> > long for government surveillance and private commercial purposes.
> >
> > Standing Bear
> > rockcast net-link.net
> >
> >   running S.u.S.E.  7.2 on an Athlon 1.4 gHz, 512MB white box triple
> > booting win98 (games), S.u.S.E., and winNT 4.0 (toy).  Suse runs on
> > its own hard drive and the windows environments don't know it is even
> > there.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 30 03:09:59 2001
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 05:07:23 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: book covers and more
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>Bart Simon wrote:
>
>>More important are the editors and reviewers (and regular front 
>>line scientists) who unfairly reject CF articles by Ed and others 
>>but I think there is more to this than corruption and conspiracy 
>>(although I am convinced there is definately some conspiracy 
>>involved)...
>
>It is mainly intellectual laziness. They do not bother to read the 
>papers. Their comments in the rejection letters reveal they do not 
>read the papers and know nothing about them.

Come on Jed, you know better than that, they are defending their pet 
paradigm! They don't give a damn about the evidence, their minds are 
made up.

>
>>The skeptically minded normal scientists are in part able to dismiss
>>current CF claims because as a consequence of history (1989-90) they
>>believe the work of CF researchers is a priori wrong so that in the same
>>way that scientists tend to throw creation science papers in the trash . . .
>
>There is a gigantic difference between a biologist who rejects 
>creationism and a "normal minded scientist" who dismisses CF! The 
>biologist knows his field in detail, and he can give you reasons for 
>his beliefs. The "normal minded scientist" is not acting as a 
>scientist at all. He knows nothing about the CF data -- he does not 
>even realize that it exists. You cannot judge data you have never 
>heard of.

I disagree, the biologists who believe in spontanious biogenesis are 
viewing life as a physical phenomena, and it's not. Life is an energy 
based phenomena. A belief in the spontaneous genesis of life is like 
believing that a tornado blew through a scrap yard and a 747 flew 
out. Those biologists are defending their paradigm just like Parks 
does. Parksie knows all about how his paradign works too.


>
>
>>I don't even get the sense that regular run of the mill scientists 
>>give CF a second thought let alone conspire to keep CF research 
>>down.
>
>No, they do not. A few powerful people censor the information and 
>keep the run of the mill scientists in the dark.


Any working physical scientist who hasn't spent some time 
investigating LENR's is brain dead!

>
>>For my money CF has proven to be a rather highly successful case of 
>>marginalized science (considering all the claims out there we could 
>>choose from) comparable perhaps to parapsychology (which survives 
>>not too badly through its own set of institutions) but also to the 
>>theory of continental drift which managed to hang in there despite 
>>years of "ignoring the data."
>
>The data for parapsychology is very close to the noise. (It may be 
>in the noise, for all I know.) It has to be mathematically massaged,

Wrong! have you ever heard of the time that one of Hal Puthoff's 
remove viewers at SRI found a MIG 22 that someone had parked in the 
Limpopo River?

>  like the Top Quark data. Some of the data for CF is miles above the 
>noise, and some is macroscopic, dramatic, and undeniable, like 
>Mizuno's heat after death. Parapsychology is supposedly difficult to 
>reproduce, whereas some CF experiments, performed repeatedly by 
>world-class organizations such as Mitsubishi, Los Alamos, the NRL 
>and the ENEA, are 100% reproducible. The two fields are vastly 
>different. CF has far more credibility.

You didn't mention anomolous isotopic ratios.

>- Jed

This seems like a good place to ask Bart a question about relativism. 
Now moral relativism I understand. It leads to situational ethics, 
which leads to  impaired moral decisions. I listen to right wing 
patriot talk radio, one example of which is www.am1280thepatriot.com 
. One communicator is Dennis Prager who was discussing the difference 
between America and Europe. One thing that you have to understand is 
that there is no connection between artistic beauty and morality. 
That is why Europe, which has produced such great artists and 
philosophers, is such a moral cesspool.

I have previously posted my fire analogy on this forum, LENR's 
produce so little energy that the only way to measure it is to use a 
bomb calorimeter. OTOH, if you had never seen a wood fire, and I were 
to demonstrate a fire to you, when I got the fire going, to the point 
were the tongue of flame was 6" high, there would be no question in 
your mind that I had demonstrated a new, and useful form of energy.

I don't understand how this applies to science however. Maybe I just 
think in black and white. As I see it, this is a classic paradigm 
revolution, I pray that you will have the courage to point this out 
in your book.



-- 

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>  Travel through a
>wormhole would be an example of an alternative approach.
>It has also since it was first derived, been generalised beyond its
>scope of applicability.

Michio Kaku, who has been interviewed extensively on Art Bell's show 
likes to go on about worm holes. According to Howard, worm holes have 
a microscopic diameter. Being forced though something that size would 
have a rather disasterous effect on the vehicle and it's occupants.

>IMO kinetic energy is magnetic field energy, which in turn assumes the
>presence of a self-magnetic field.

I like this accessment of kinetic energy

>  It may be possible to create a pure
>electrical wave that has no magnetic component,

IMHO it already exists, the energy that makes life possible.

>and is therefore not
>limited to the speed of light, as no energy need be (is) stored in the
>magnetic field.

exactly, this energy may have a finite speed, ie Plank's upper limit, 
but it is not limited to the speed of light.

>
>>
>>>  when he developed the ST. Since then everyone else
>  >> has jumped on the band wagon, and assumed that absolutely nothing could
>  >
>  >You said it was a house of cards. It appears to be a well thought out and
>>tested theory, with few problems in it's predictions.
>
>I think it is a house of cards, in as much as the epicycle theory was a
>house of cards. It too worked, but was replaced by a simpler model .

What is the epicycle theory?

>I think this is what is in store for the standard model. I think the
>replacement will be an aether theory.
>One clue to this is the Plank mass, which currently has no apparent real
>partner.
>I also think the Higgs boson is a pipe dream. Mass is a measure of
>energy content, through interaction with the vacuum, and not a special
>property of matter that requires a new particle. In fact there is no
>such thing as mass, i.e. it is not an intrinsic property of matter, it
>is an extrinsic property. The relevant intrinsic property is particle
>size (the smaller the particle, the more "massive" it is - at least for
>"simple" particles i.e. not conglomerates).
>(Leptons are simple particles, Baryons are conglomerates).
>[snip]
>
>>
>>>  >We can conclude
>>>  >that everything we know is in some measure wrong. Theories are, however,
>>>  >as good as their predictions, and the predictions of SR and GR are fairly
>>>  >good on the large scale. It is still the best theory.

I think that it is full of holes and needs replacement.

>  >>
>>>  It is still a fairly good theory. There are a couple of others that I
>>>  would give the time day.
>  >

Hout Stearns and I are partial to the Recriprocal model.

>  >?!?
>
>This isn't as contradictory as it appears. The epicycle theory worked
>too, and was fine as far as it went. It was a house of cards (i.e. based
>on weak foundations and doomed to collapse and be replaced)
>nevertheless.

Tell me more about the epicycle theory.

>


--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 30 09:24:40 2001
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http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/cn/20011129/tc/more_ginger_details_may_be_coming_1.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 30 13:03:47 2001
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Subject: Cavers and nanos and heresy (oh my!)
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I just found a really cool book in the used bookstore: "Dark Life."  It's
from 1999, and the author is a writer rather than a scientist.  As I was
reading, I kept finding all sorts of interesting viewpoints on cutting-
edge biological heresies.  The main one involves the nanobacteria
controversy.  I'd heard of this, but never realized the implications. 
Nanos are bacteria which are the size of large viruses, which are not
noticed under SEM microscopes (you need a field-emission SEM to get the
resolution), whose effects resemble chemical action rather than life, and
which cannot be sterilized using heat such as an autoclave, and live just 
fine in battery acid.

Note well this last one.  If you can't kill them with normal techniques,
then nearly all "sterile" environments are contaminated, including the
insides of humans  (and hey, the insides of Pons-Fleichman experiments.)

My favorite heresy in the book:  all "rusting" phenomena everywhere are
due to bacteria.

While reading, I kept getting the creeps.  Intuitive feeling that this
stuff is going to be really, really big.

   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684841916



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 30 14:25:32 2001
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Subject: Lessons from the Enron collapse
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People who think that giant corporations are all-powerfull, particularly 
Big Oil and Big Energy corporations, should read recent business sections 
from newspapers carefully. Last year, Enron was the seventh largest 
corporation in the U.S. It was one of the most feared, ruthless and 
politically well-connected corporations in the world. Many people believe 
it masterminded the California energy crises, fleecing rate payers and the 
state for billions of dollars. Enron’s CEO is a close personal friend of 
President George W. Bush. Enron executives supposedly huddled with Vice 
President Cheney to write the National Energy Policy. It is said that 
Enron’s special skill was to exploit the confusion in newly deregulated 
utility markets, for electricity, natural gas, water and other utilities. 
It made close friends with high officials in the U.S., Britain and India.

In May 2001, in an article titled “Bush Task Force on Energy Worked in 
Mysterious Ways,” the New York Times reported: “Richard S. Shapiro, senior 
vice president of the Enron Corporation, a major Republican contributor and 
the nation's largest trader of wholesale electricity and natural gas, said 
top executives from his firm spent half an hour with Mr. Cheney, but he 
could not tell how much this may have influenced the final report.”

If any large energy corporation ever held a choke-hold over national energy 
supplies and policy, and was ever in a position to dictate policy for its 
own benefit, it was Enron. Yet despite this power, in the space of six 
months Enron has collapsed in one of the most spectacular failures in 
business history. Its stock value fell from $85 in August to 60 cents 
today. Next week it is expected to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The top 
executives of the company made out well. They are accused of arranging 
shady “sweet heart deals” to enrich themselves, which are now being 
investigated by the SEC. They sold hundreds of millions of dollars in their 
own stock before the collapse. Many low level employees who had worked for 
companies acquired by Enron, who are now near retirement, saw their 
nest-eggs of hundreds of thousands of dollars wiped out, and investors have 
lost billions.

The ten largest bankruptcy filings since 1980 include two energy companies: 
Texaco (1987, $35 billion - the largest in history), and Pacific Gas & 
Electric (2001, $22 billion). (Bankrupcydata.com) Enron will probably cause 
~$62 billion in losses, twice the world record.

What does all of this prove? It shows that corporations and other 
establishment organizations are not as powerful as people think. Money, 
political connections, and clout can be erased by market forces, or by an 
enraged public – the people of California, in this case. It shows what will 
happen to the oil companies, the DoE, and OPEC if the public ever realizes 
that cold fusion is real. People think these all-powerful institutions can 
stop innovation, order governments around, dial up a war when it suits 
their purposes, and control the fate of nations. They can! They have done 
all of this, and more. I expect they would be pleased to cause catastrophic 
global warming, and to wipe out millions of species to protect their 
profits. They cut short countless human lives with pollution, and flatten 
mountains to dig up coal. Yet despite their present awesome power, they are 
as vulnerable as soap bubbles in a hurricane. A few thousand words, a major 
headline repeated worldwide, a change in public attitude . . . and they 
will be history.

Source:

www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/11/29/MN6626.DTL

. . . and many other news articles.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 30 15:13:06 2001
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Suddenly, monetary investment in near-obsolete fuel technology is coming
into sharp focus.  Thanks for the info, Jed.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 5:22 PM
Subject: Lessons from the Enron collapse


> People who think that giant corporations are all-powerfull, particularly
> Big Oil and Big Energy corporations, should read recent business sections
> from newspapers carefully. Last year, Enron was the seventh largest
> corporation in the U.S. It was one of the most feared, ruthless and
> politically well-connected corporations in the world. Many people believe
> it masterminded the California energy crises, fleecing rate payers and the
> state for billions of dollars. Enron's CEO is a close personal friend of
> President George W. Bush. Enron executives supposedly huddled with Vice
> President Cheney to write the National Energy Policy. It is said that
> Enron's special skill was to exploit the confusion in newly deregulated
> utility markets, for electricity, natural gas, water and other utilities.
> It made close friends with high officials in the U.S., Britain and India.
>
> In May 2001, in an article titled "Bush Task Force on Energy Worked in
> Mysterious Ways," the New York Times reported: "Richard S. Shapiro, senior
> vice president of the Enron Corporation, a major Republican contributor
and
> the nation's largest trader of wholesale electricity and natural gas, said
> top executives from his firm spent half an hour with Mr. Cheney, but he
> could not tell how much this may have influenced the final report."
>
> If any large energy corporation ever held a choke-hold over national
energy
> supplies and policy, and was ever in a position to dictate policy for its
> own benefit, it was Enron. Yet despite this power, in the space of six
> months Enron has collapsed in one of the most spectacular failures in
> business history. Its stock value fell from $85 in August to 60 cents
> today. Next week it is expected to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The top
> executives of the company made out well. They are accused of arranging
> shady "sweet heart deals" to enrich themselves, which are now being
> investigated by the SEC. They sold hundreds of millions of dollars in
their
> own stock before the collapse. Many low level employees who had worked for
> companies acquired by Enron, who are now near retirement, saw their
> nest-eggs of hundreds of thousands of dollars wiped out, and investors
have
> lost billions.
>
> The ten largest bankruptcy filings since 1980 include two energy
companies:
> Texaco (1987, $35 billion - the largest in history), and Pacific Gas &
> Electric (2001, $22 billion). (Bankrupcydata.com) Enron will probably
cause
> ~$62 billion in losses, twice the world record.
>
> What does all of this prove? It shows that corporations and other
> establishment organizations are not as powerful as people think. Money,
> political connections, and clout can be erased by market forces, or by an
> enraged public - the people of California, in this case. It shows what
will
> happen to the oil companies, the DoE, and OPEC if the public ever realizes
> that cold fusion is real. People think these all-powerful institutions can
> stop innovation, order governments around, dial up a war when it suits
> their purposes, and control the fate of nations. They can! They have done
> all of this, and more. I expect they would be pleased to cause
catastrophic
> global warming, and to wipe out millions of species to protect their
> profits. They cut short countless human lives with pollution, and flatten
> mountains to dig up coal. Yet despite their present awesome power, they
are
> as vulnerable as soap bubbles in a hurricane. A few thousand words, a
major
> headline repeated worldwide, a change in public attitude . . . and they
> will be history.
>
> Source:
>
> www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/11/29/MN6626.DTL
>
> . . . and many other news articles.
>
> - Jed
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 30 15:29:26 2001
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Subject: Re: Lessons from the Enron collapse
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Ryan Hopkins wrote:

>Suddenly, monetary investment in near-obsolete fuel technology is coming 
>into sharp focus.

Yes, that is the core story here. Enron did many things wrong, such as 
investing in fiber optic networks, and it was corrupt in some ways. But 
many large corporations are corrupt, and they all lose money in risky 
ventures from time to time. I think the real cause of the downfall was 
exactly what Hopkins said: Enron was trying to sell obsolete technology. 
The public, especially in California, said no thanks, we would rather cut 
consumption by 10% by conserving with new refrigerators and compact 
fluorescent lights. Bingo, Enron goes down the tubes.

Last year V.P. Cheney said conservation is a "private virtue" that cannot 
affect nation level energy consumption or policy. This year, conservation 
bankrupted the seventh largest company in the U.S. practically overnight.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 30 15:30:35 2001
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More (earlier) info here:

"Lloyd Bentsen, another Texan, and Clinton's first treasury secretary, was 
already a recipient of Enron's largesse."
http://www.corpwatch.org/trac/feature/india/profiles/enron/enroninfluence.html

"These connections to the Democratic administration have helped Enron 
considerably, says Ken Silverstein, who publishes Counterpunch, a 
fortnightly newsletter here.
     Clinton officials publicly helped Enron win the contract in India as 
well as in Indonesia."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/581227/posts


At 05:22 PM 11/30/2001 -0500, Jed wrote:
>People who think that giant corporations are all-powerfull, particularly 
>Big Oil and Big Energy corporations, should read recent business sections 
>from newspapers carefully. Last year, Enron was the seventh largest 
>corporation in the U.S. It was one of the most feared, ruthless and 
>politically well-connected corporations in the world. Many people believe 
>it masterminded the California energy crises, fleecing rate payers and the 
>state for billions of dollars. Enron's CEO is a close personal friend of 
>President George W. Bush. Enron executives supposedly huddled with Vice 
>President Cheney to write the National Energy Policy. It is said that 
>Enron's special skill was to exploit the confusion in newly deregulated 
>utility markets, for electricity, natural gas, water and other utilities. 
>It made close friends with high officials in the U.S., Britain and India.
>....
>www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/11/29/MN6626.DTL

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 30 15:41:55 2001
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From: "R. Wormus" <protech frii.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:34:48 -0600
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Jed,
ENRON was mainly a trader in energy contracts and as such had few hard assets. They were basically a middleman trying to make something in between and you say there main expertise was manipulating markets (like any shady broker). There collapse is like a 
run on a bad bank; those holding long term contracts with them lost confidence and bailed. It became an ever accellerating downward spiral. 

There is a lesson for regulators here.
Ron
On 30-Nov-01, Jed Rothwell jedrothwell infinite-energy.com wrote:

JR> Ryan Hopkins wrote:
JR> 
JR>> Suddenly, monetary investment in near-obsolete fuel technology is coming 
JR>> into sharp focus.
JR> 
JR> Yes, that is the core story here. Enron did many things wrong, such as 
JR> investing in fiber optic networks, and it was corrupt in some ways. But 
JR> many large corporations are corrupt, and they all lose money in risky 
JR> ventures from time to time. I think the real cause of the downfall was 
JR> exactly what Hopkins said: Enron was trying to sell obsolete technology. 
JR> The public, especially in California, said no thanks, we would rather cut 
JR> consumption by 10% by conserving with new refrigerators and compact 
JR> fluorescent lights. Bingo, Enron goes down the tubes.
JR> 
JR> Last year V.P. Cheney said conservation is a "private virtue" that cannot 
JR> affect nation level energy consumption or policy. This year, conservation 
JR> bankrupted the seventh largest company in the U.S. practically overnight.
JR> 
JR> - Jed
JR> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 30 16:14:36 2001
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Wormus commented:

>It became an ever accellerating downward spiral.

Sounds like a vortex! Lasted about as long as a T2 sized tornado, too.
<chuckle> ahh, the irony....



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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Nov 30, 2001
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:45:05 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 30 Nov 01   Washington, DC

1. MISSILE DEFENSE: HOW DO YOU DEFINE "SUCCESSFUL"?  Tomorrow, an
attempt will be made to intercept a target missile launched from
California with a ground-based interceptor from Kwajalein Atoll
in the Pacific.  Will the test be successful?  Let me put it this
way: if the test is successful, Boeing gets a $500M bonus.  There
are a lot of ways to insure success.  In the July test, which was
scored a success, the defense knew when it was being launched,
where it was launched from, and the flight-path it would take. 
And just in case that didn't do it, a homing beacon was installed
on the target (WN 10 Jul 01).  In any case, this test will not
destroy the 1974 ABM treaty; despite the chest beating prior to
the Crawford summit, tomorrow's test will conform to the treaty.

2. SUPREME COURT: IS THE RIGHT TO CONCEAL STUPIDITY PROTECTED? 
As we near the end of the fall semester, some teachers may decide
to rethink their practice of posting final exam scores on their
office door.  This week, the highest court in the land heard
arguments in a case involving the right of a student to keep his
test scores private, under the 1974 Family Educational Rights and
Privacy Act.  Perhaps the American public should launch a class-
action suit to suppress the results of a national survey of
scientific knowledge developed by the California Academy of
Sciences.  It revealed, for example, that more than half of all
American adults do not know that the Earth goes around the Sun
once a year.  Our collective self-esteem must surely be damaged.

3. YUCCA MOUNTAIN: DEBATE MAY EXCEED THE HALF-LIFE OF THE WASTE. 
Twenty years ago, creation of a nuclear waste repository was said
to be urgent.  The only candidate was, and still is, a desolate
bump in the Nevada desert.  Opponents raised every conceivable
objection and several that weren't, including tortured arguments
that leakage could result in a chain reaction.  Nevertheless,
everyone expected Secretary of Energy Abraham to recommend that
the President designate Yucca Mountain as the site for waste
storage as part of a renewal of the nuclear power industry. 
However, the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of
Congress, has now urged the Administration to postpone a decision
indefinitely while still more objections are resolved.

4. BOOKS: EDWARD TELLER PUBLISHES HIS MEMOIRS.  In December of
1994 the conservative Heritage Foundation held an orientation for
newly elected members of Congress.  The first speaker was Edward
Teller.  He told the mostly worshipful audience that Congress had
"no greater purpose than to defend the lives of Americans."  When
asked about his exaggerated claims for Star Wars, he scoffed, "I
am guilty of the great crime of optimism."  That technological
optimism comes through clearly in his "Memoirs: a twentieth-
century journey in science and politics," Perseus, 2001.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  1 07:46:16 2001
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3. YUCCA MOUNTAIN: DEBATE MAY EXCEED THE HALF-LIFE OF THE
WASTE.
Twenty years ago, creation of a nuclear waste repository was
said
to be urgent.  The only candidate was, and still is, a
desolate
bump in the Nevada desert.  Opponents raised every
conceivable
objection and several that weren't, including tortured
arguments
that leakage could result in a chain reaction.
Nevertheless,
everyone expected Secretary of Energy Abraham to recommend
that
the President designate Yucca Mountain as the site for waste

storage as part of a renewal of the nuclear power industry.
However, the General Accounting Office, the investigative
arm of
Congress, has now urged the Administration to postpone a
decision
indefinitely while still more objections are resolved.



Here we have another example how our government handles
serious problems.  The last example was the Twin Towers
event.  In this case, the government knew that airport
security was a joke, the only effect being to inconvenience
passengers.  It took the event of 9/11 to get the government
to actually start down the road to a solution.  Now we have
highly radioactive fuel rods being stored all over the
country, on the surface and, in many cases, without suitable
protection.  Meanwhile, the same kind of reasons are being
used not to do anything about an obvious disaster in the
making.  Greed and stupidly have always been dangerous, but
now that civilization has gotten more complex, the risk to
us all is going up.  Do we always have to wait until a
disaster occurs before an obvious risk is eliminated?

Ed Storms


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  1 08:59:15 2001
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: [svpvril] Fwd:  Random Noise From Within Objects Reveals 
 Their Internal Structure
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>   Subject: Random Noise From Within Objects Reveals Their Internal
>Structure
>
>
>      
>         Source:   University Of Illinois At Urbana-Champaign
>(http://www.uiuc.edu)
>            
>      
>         Date:   Posted 11/26/2001
>
>   Random Noise From Within Objects Reveals Their Internal Structure
>
>   CHAMPAIGN, Ill. - By picking up the tiny vibrations of thermal
>energy that exist naturally in all objects, researchers at the
>University of Illinois have performed ultrasonic measurements without
>using a source. Potential applications range from seismology to
>materials science.
>   As reported in the Sept. 24 issue of Physical Review Letters, UI
>professor of theoretical and applied mechanics Richard Weaver and
>research associate Oleg Lobkis measured minuscule sound waves -
>called phonons - propagating within a block of aluminum at room
>temperature.
>
>   "The sound we were listening to was created by arbitrary thermal
>fluctuations generated elsewhere in the sample, such as an electron
>hitting a lattice imperfection or an air molecule striking the
>surface," Weaver said. "While no one had really doubted that these
>tiny fluctuations existed, no one had ever measured them before."
>
>   Weaver and Lobkis not only proved that the vibrations were indeed
>measurable, they also showed that by correlating what appeared to be
>random noise, considerable information could be gleaned about an
>object's interior. First, they listened to the noise, then they used
>mathematical operations that looked for patterns and repetitions - a
>process called autocorrelation.
>
>   "Like BBs rattling inside a box, phonons will bounce off the walls
>of the aluminum, ricochet off some internal structure, and bounce off
>the walls again, corresponding to the round-trip travel time of an
>echo," Weaver said. "We looked for correlations within the echoes."
>
>   Weaver and Lobkis validated their technique by autocorrelating the
>noise from a passive piezoelectric transducer mounted to the sample
>and then comparing that result with an active measurement they
>obtained using conventional ultrasonics. "The waveforms were almost
>identical," Weaver said. "When you autocorrelate the ambient noise,
>you see nearly the same signal as when you pulse the transducer and
>listen to the echoes."
>
>   This surprising result is something scientists have been
>overlooking for decades, Weaver said. "We've been throwing away this
>noise - not realizing that it's full of useful information."
>
>   In principle, the passive technique could work on nearly any
>object, but would be most helpful in applications where conventional
>sound sources are scarce. At very low frequencies, for example,
>seismologists could pick up the random vibrations from distant
>earthquakes to obtain local stratigraphic information without setting
>off directed explosives. At extremely high frequencies, the technique
>could be used to noninvasively probe micron-sized features and
>material properties in microchips.
>
>   "The technique also might be useful for monitoring building
>vibrations to anticipate potential collapse," Weaver said. "By
>measuring the natural frequencies of the building as it responds to
>random vibrations in the neighborhood, even subtle changes in
>structural rigidity could be detected."
>
>   The National Science Foundation funded the research.
>
>
>   Editor's Note: The original news release can be found at
>http://www.news.uiuc.edu/scitips/01/11ultrasonics.html
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>      
>   Note: This story has been adapted from a news release issued by
>University Of Illinois At Urbana-Champaign for journalists and other
>members of the public. If you wish to quote from any part of this
>story, please credit University Of Illinois At Urbana-Champaign as
>the original source. You may also wish to include the following link
>in any citation:
>
>   http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/11/011120054110.htm
>      
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>--- End forwarded message ---
>
>
>
>Get your FREE SVP catalog of 400 books, pamphlets & videos.
>
>Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com.
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  1 10:59:52 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: LOTS of RF noise!
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Did you know you can use a radiator as a radio? See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/01/nyregion/01RADI.html?searchpv=nytToday

New York Times

December 1, 2001
City Island Is Alive With Sound of Radio

By ALAN FEUER

On City Island, you don't need a radio to listen to the radio.
A telephone will work just fine, although an answering machine is much 
better. Toaster ovens have been known to talk. Radiators are also chatty; 
on clear days, some of them pick up "Imus in the Morning." And through the 
electrical wiring in some utility sheds, it's possible to catch a Mets game 
without being anywhere near the AM dial.

There are no movie theaters or public beaches on this snug spit of land 
that sits in Long Island Sound off the coast of the Bronx, like the last 
bean left in a bowl of white bean soup. Among the boatyards and lobster 
joints, there's not much to disturb the island's cherished ambience of 
saltwater crustiness and lowland calm.

There are, however, a pair of radio towers off the coast, on a tiny speck 
of dirt called High Island. These are for WCBS-AM and WFAN, each of which 
operates at about 50,000 watts of broadcasting power. This means that on 
City Island it is all news, all the time. . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  1 11:40:45 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Another disaster waiting to happen
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>In this case, the government knew that airport security was a joke, the 
>only effect being to inconvenience passengers.

This is an exaggeration. In the 1960s, before security gates were 
installed, there were dozens of hijackings. As far as I know, there were 
none afterward in the U.S. Furthermore, the main weapon used in the 9/11 
attack was psychology or surprise. If the pilot, crew and passengers had 
known -- or even imagined -- that hijackers might be on a suicide mission, 
they would never allow an airplane to be taken over with box cutters. There 
is zero chance a lightly armed hijacker will ever succeed again.

I do not know how many weapons were confiscated at the security gates  over 
the years, but it would not surprise me to hear that many were. Most 
criminals are stupid and can be captured or thwarted easily. Years ago 
during the debate over whether to implement background checks at gun shops, 
many people opposed to the idea said that felons, wanted criminals and 
others would buy their guns elsewhere, on the street, if they knew they 
would be subject to a background check. Perhaps some do, but every year 
tens of thousands of them submit the background check forms and are turned 
down. Several thousand wanted criminals have been captured when they 
submitted background check information. This is similar to what happened 
when FBI agents disguised as telephone repairmen were caught installing 
bugs and wiretaps in a Mafia Don house. They persuaded the Don they were 
installing a security system for his benefit as a new telephone company 
service. He was so impressed, he recommended them to several of his friends 
and henchmen, who also welcomed the installations.

Experts say the new security and "aggressive investigation" methods now 
being used at the FBI are a gift to terrorists. The methods are so crude, 
they reveal the FBI's thinking, broadcasting its intentions and suspicions 
to the terrorist organizations. They are destroying any hope of a 
successful investigation. In the past, the FBI has thwarted hundreds of 
terrorist acts. In one case they captured terrorists in the act of mixing 
barrels of explosives to blow up two tunnels leading into New York 
City.  In dozens of cases they let the terrorists proceed under secret 
surveillance until they traced all members of the organization, and trapped 
them all with incriminating evidence. No terrorist action was completed by 
people under surveillance, and not one civilian or agent was hurt. These 
FBI people are professionals who know what they are doing. They have now 
been overruled by the Attorney General, who they say is a blundering 
amateur who is wrecking the organization and endangering the nation.

See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24919-2001Nov27.html

Washington Post

Ex-FBI Officials Criticize Tactics On Terrorism
Detention of Suspects Not Effective, They Say

Quotes:

. . . the Ashcroft plan will inevitably force the bureau to close terrorism 
investigations prematurely, before agents can identify all members of a 
terrorist cell. They said the Justice Department is resurrecting tactics 
the government rejected in the late 1970s because they did not prevent 
terrorism and led to abuses of civil liberties.

"It is amazing to me that Ashcroft is essentially trying to dismantle the 
bureau," said Oliver "Buck" Revell, a former FBI executive assistant 
director who was the primary architect of the FBI anti-terrorism strategy 
during the 1980s. "They don't know their history," he said, "and they are 
not listening to people who do." . . .

. . . Although none of the former officials interviewed for this article 
questioned the value of fine-tuning FBI operations in light of Sept. 11, 
they contended that Ashcroft's new policies will weaken the FBI's primary 
strategy for penetrating terrorist cells.

"It's the Perry Mason School of Law Enforcement, where you get them in 
there and they confess," Walton said of the plan to interview 5,000 Middle 
Eastern men. "Well, it just doesn't work that way. It is ridiculous. You 
say, 'Tell me everything you know,' and they give you the recipe to Mom's 
chicken soup." . . .


- Jed

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Well, sort of.  :)

What did he know, and when did he know it?

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/

Look near the bottom of the page in "Space Chronicles". It's a 
javascript link, so I can't post a direct URL.

The little gravity dip over ACC's Sri Lanka home isn't just a good 
place to park a geosat, it's also a good place to lose a little 
weight. Of course the conventional explanation is that there is a 
lower conccentration of mass there, but I wonder. That global g-map 
is really wild looking. I wonder if chemical make-up has something to 
do with it. Check out the blue 'butterfly' of low g roughly centered 
on Sri Lanka.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  1 20:24:29 2001
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Subject: Re: Lessons from the Enron collapse
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>My sympathies to the straightlaced workers at such companies but... well...
>it's about time some of these buggers got taken down.  Would anyone like to
>guess as to when this trend will get around to Microsoft?
>Ryan


My nephew, who is setting up a similar system to the one that Enron 
had for Nrg. thinks that Microsoft's software is the greatest. Their 
using a MS Enterpise Application Server package. This reminds me of a 
conversation I was with two friends who were mainframe programers 
about 16 years ago. I read an article about a mid sized company that 
was using a network of P C's with an LAN. I pointed out to them that 
with the increasing power of microcomputers, it was just a matter of 
time until such a net would exceed the power of a mainframe.. They 
laughed at me. Well that just shows you, he who laughs last last 
laughs best.

I'm concerned that the organization I work for will have it's 
computers taken down by a virus. Rev. Terry thinks that PC's are cool 
because that's what everyone else in business is using. I just 
forwarded him an email with URL's of virus protection.

I'm thinking about getting a PC just so I can learn to run Lynis, it 
beats doing business with the evil empire.



-- 

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>Enron has collapsed in one of the most spectacular failures in 
>business history. Its stock value fell from $85 in August to 60 
>cents today. Next week it is expected to file for Chapter 11 
>bankruptcy. The top executives of the company made out well. They 
>are accused of arranging shady “sweet heart deals” to enrich 
>themselves, which are now being investigated by the SEC. They sold 
>hundreds of millions of dollars in their own stock before the 
>collapse. Many low level employees who had worked for companies 
>acquired by Enron, who are now near retirement, saw their nest-eggs 
>of hundreds of thousands of dollars wiped out, and investors have 
>lost billions.


This story makes me sick. OTOH, those people weren't forced to invest 
in Enron stock, they though they were going to make money, and if 
they had sold out when the Bush appointees did, they probably would 
have.

>
>The ten largest bankruptcy filings since 1980 include two energy 
>companies: Texaco (1987, $35 billion - the largest in history), and 
>Pacific Gas & Electric (2001, $22 billion). (Bankrupcydata.com) 
>Enron will probably cause ~$62 billion in losses, twice the world 
>record.


Does this include the value of the stock when it was at it's peak?

>
>What does all of this prove? It shows that corporations and other 
>establishment organizations are not as powerful as people think. 
>Money, political connections, and clout can be erased by market 
>forces, or by an enraged public – the people of California, in this 
>case. It shows what will happen to the oil companies, the DoE, and 
>OPEC if the public ever realizes that cold fusion is real. People 
>think these all-powerful institutions can stop innovation, order 
>governments around, dial up a war when it suits their


I failed to notice any response from any of you people to my posting 
on the 100 MPG + carburator. It is either so much B S, more of the 
mythos of the F E story, or else it is a classic example of an 
inventor who was falsely imprisoned on drug charges by the local 
police after he did some thing which threatened the oil companies. We 
shall see.

>
>- Jed


-- 

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Speaking of heresies
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William's posting on Cavers and nanos and heresy (oh my!)  reminds me 
of several scientific heresies.

Wilhelm Reich's writing on Orgone energy. There was something that he 
did with heat sterilized sand. The energy emanating from the sand 
gave him a tan through his clothing. Hum, this makes me wonder if he 
fathered any children following this experiment, and if his death was 
related to exposure to this energy. As I recall, Reich wrote about 
little living entities that showed up in this sand.

Another thing that comes to mind is a conversation that I had last 
week with Wayne Green.

One thing was the nature of the atomic nucleus. In Occult Chemisty, 
Besalt and Leadbeater, report that the nucleus is a vortex. The 
electrons flow through the center of it. The nucleus has a spin. This 
spin is responsible for inertia. Puthoff has written a paper 
speculating about how it might be possible to engineer the effects of 
inertia.

I'm more interested in how we might be able to get the nucleus to 
either expand or contract, get heavier or lighter. I would refer 
anyone who is interested to the work of Walter Russell's 
transmutation machine.

I told Wayne about Chris Arnold's motor, and how the energy derived 
from the plasma fusion interacts with a spinning magnetic rotor. I 
wish I had a research budget that would pay for a subscription to 
Wayne's magazine.

He also believes that we didn't go to the moon. He says that no human 
could survive an exposure to the radiation in the Van Allen belt. I 
don't know, those pictures that they shot when they were on the moon 
look very realistic.

Well that ought to give you people some things to discuss.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  1 20:25:42 2001
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Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:23:21 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: FWD:  Plutonium Contamination on 9/11? (FYI)
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I received this email from Pat Bailey and responded with the 
following paragraph.

I don't know Pat, according to Ed Storms, only 1% of the Pu is split 
in two during the nuclear event. 99% of 23 pounds is basically 23 
pounds, This Pu is vaporized as fine as you can get it. We detonated 
500 bombs during the '50 and early '60's. Consequently I'm not just 
too worried about 4 pounds of Pu


>FWD:  Thanks W!
>
>THE SALTING OF AMERICA
>
>(Is Much of the Eastern U.S. Now an Irradiated No Man's Land
>with Anthrax as a Cover-up?)
>The Phoney War in Afghanistan (Part 3)
>
>(BJNews, October 26, 2001)
>
>I just today had a phone conversation with my father who is a senior
>nuclear engineer and international expert on radiation and nuclear
>reactors. He was on the investigative teams at the Three Mile Island and
>Chernobyl nuclear disasters. In the early 1970's, he was the corporate
>manager of all GE nuclear sites including Three Mile Island, so he knows
>the facilities and their operations quite well.
>I discussed with him my scenario for WTC terrorist pilot Muhammed Atta's
>complaint to his local pharmacist in Boca Raton, Florida, about his red
>burning itchy hands, just a week before the attack: it might have been due
>to radiation burns, and not due to anthrax. Investigators have confirmed
>from the Florida pharmacist that it was not anthrax, but... Atta may have
>divided up about a pound of powdered plutonium into four separate vials to
>be taken aboard each of the four hijacked planes. This would account for
>his red itchy radiation burned hands. That made sense to my father.
>My investigational hypothesis is that if the four planes carried a pound of
>plutonium, then the plutonium would have been burned or oxidized during the
>World Trade Center attack into a very fine white ash of plutonium oxide and
>would have spread in the smoking plumes from the flaming twin towers in the
>first two hours before they collapsed.
>One clue that this may have happened is that the recovery crews for the
>fourth plane which crashed in a field in Pennsylvania without burning, were
>hazmat crews. And none of the public or news services had been allowed near
>that crash site.
>Obtaining raw powdered plutonium, given enough money, is quite easy in the
>dark world of terrorist countries or groups who are desiring to use
>plutonium to build small nuclear weapons, but they do not yet have the
>scientific tools or technology to complete the construction. It takes
>several pounds of plutonium, plus other special items, to build a nuclear
>bomb. In the meantime, world nuclear watchers would agree that somehow
>certain terrorist groups do have about a pound of raw plutonium, obtained
>from various sources, which in a burning airplane can be a powerful weapon
>to "salt the earth" of America and render large portions of the U.S.
>permanently uninhabitable.
>That amount of plutonium would have been spread across thousands of square
>miles of the northeast U.S. and Washington DC areas and would be a
>long-term (1000 years or so) health hazard. My father agreed with all that,
>but also assumed that somebody would have already discovered the increase
>in radiation. I asked "but who?" and he did not have a good answer.
>He assumed that there are many agencies and laboratories where people wear
>radiation dosimeters, have sensitive radiation detectors and they would
>have noticed the increase in radiation. When I again asked where and who,
>he did not have a good answer. He said Brookhaven Labs in New York might
>have seen it. But I said Brookhaven was not under the smoke plume and they
>would not notice such a radiation increase until it traveled all the way
>around the earth with the prevailing winds and arrived back in New York
>several months later. He agreed.
>So maybe there was nobody to notice. During the horrible destructive
>explosion and fire at Chernobyl there was actually only a small amount of
>plutonium which escaped from the flaming reactor. Most of it was captured
>and covered in a permanent cement tomb. But still much of the large region
>downwind from Chernobyl is a permanent no man's land. If a pound of
>plutonium had been sent into the atmosphere during the WTC attack it would
>produce a massively larger worldwide effect than the Chernobyl event.
>I explained to him that local hazmat people in New York around ground zero
>would never see the radiation since the smoke plume went upward at 3,000
>feet above the ground and drifted away from the burning towers to the
>northeast along with the wind. The main radioactive plutonium ash plume
>would not have started to fall until 10 or 15 miles away. And that is
>assuming the hazmat people were even looking for radiation and not just
>biotech health hazards like asbestos. Probably the first people to notice
>the possible massive killer irradiation of the U.S. northeast would be the
>European labs, who about now would start to see a rapid increase in
>radiation coming across the Atlantic Ocean.
>In the meantime, if anybody in the U.S. government had suspected, which is
>what I suspect, that there might have been a massive radiation event, such
>as those workers who cleared the Pennsylvania crash site, this should have
>required a quick and permanent evacuation of millions of people from the
>U.S. northeast, and also around Washington DC and areas eastward from the
>Pentagon. This sudden shock to the U.S. government and populace would
>create a far greater panic and fear than the original WTC attack and even
>the current hoax of an anthrax bio-attack.
>To indicate that the current anthrax hoax is possibly part of a cover-up of
>the aftermath of a more terrible WTC 9-11 event, I would note that the
>symptoms of being under a plutonium cloud with very fine radiation
>particles raining down, would include: (1) lesions on the skin of the head,
>neck, face and hands where particles have landed, (2) pneumonia-like
>filling of the lungs where particles have been inhaled and (3) general
>weakness, nausea, vomiting of blood and severe intestinal distress where
>the radiation particles have landed on food or water which is ingested
>Strangely, those exact same set of three symptoms are the CDC's protocol
>for identifying those who are suspected of having contracted either (1)
>cutaneous, (2) inhalation or (3) gastro-intestinal anthrax. And that is
>right from the CDC's own MMWR Oct 19, 2001 report for the definition of
>diagnosing confirmed cases of anthrax.
>Another most strange coincidence is that Muhammed Atta was in Boca Raton
>just a week before the air hijacking attacks on buildings in New York and
>Washington DC. And then within just weeks after the 9-11 attack, a sudden
>outbreak of rare anthrax among humans occurs where? In Boca Raton, New York
>and Washington DC. In the world of scientific analysis, this may be just a
>strange coincidence, or it may be the unique exception that proves the rule.
>Just this morning I received today's CDC October 26 Anthrax update. I
>analyzed the medical diagnosis for each of the "suspected" and "confirmed"
>cases of anthrax and I can easily show that quite possibly none of those
>people contracted or died from anthrax infection. And that is according to
>the CDC's second definition of what constitutes a "confirmed" case.
>----------- Marshall Smith
>Editor, BroJon Gazette
>For more information on who might be behind such strange events as the WTC
>attack on September 11, 2001 see the book excerpts of "Black Gold Hot Gold."
>For information on the strange work going on at various secret laboratories
>with pharmaceuticals, drugs, chemicals and methods of mass-destruction, see
>the article: HAARP: WEATHER, POPULATION, AND MIND CONTROL--- AND THE
>"EDUCATIONAL-RESEARCH-COMPLEX"
>See Also Previous Articles in the Series "The Phoney War in Afghanistan"
>THE DISMANTLING OF AMERICA -- The Phoney War in Afghanistan (Part 1)
>THE WORLD IN CHECKMATE -- The Phoney War in Afghanistan (Part 2) Tell a
>Friend About This Article  CLICK TO SUBSCRIBE TO THE BROJON FREE DAILY
>DIGEST  DAILY DIGEST 
>Copyright © 2001 BJNews & TeddySpeaks Foundation, Inc. To respond to this
>story email BROTHER JONATHAN GAZETTE.


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  2 07:11:53 2001
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Re: FWD:  Plutonium Contamination on 9/11? (FYI)
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thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> I received this email from Pat Bailey and responded with the
> following paragraph.
> 
> I don't know Pat, according to Ed Storms, only 1% of the Pu is split
> in two during the nuclear event. 99% of 23 pounds is basically 23
> pounds, This Pu is vaporized as fine as you can get it. We detonated
> 500 bombs during the '50 and early '60's. Consequently I'm not just
> too worried about 4 pounds of Pu

There are radiation detectors surrounding all nuclear plants and at many
universities.  They would be screaming like a banshee in this scenario. 
Also, I don't think Chernobyl was fueled with Pu.  ;-)

Regards,

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  2 10:21:16 2001
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Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 12:17:11 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Another disaster waiting to happen
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>
>
>Here we have another example how our government handles
>serious problems.  The last example was the Twin Towers


I have previously mentioned Paul Brown's claims of radioneuclide 
remediation. Have you heard this mentioned on the news? I haven't

>event.  In this case, the government knew that airport
>security was a joke,

The worst part of it is that they had the example of El Al to go by. 
There is an American engineering company that builds an explosive 
proof cargo container, but has the FAA required their use? no. Then 
they select people at random to do a full search, the fellow that 
this happened to is a joe average American. Now there is only one 
ethenic group that engages is terrorism, but can we selectively 
target them for speical searches? no, that would violate political 
correctness. Then you have the national guard standing around looking 
tough, does anyone think that wasting their time accomplishes any 
good?

>the only effect being to inconvenience
>passengers.

Like being hijacked isn't an inconvenience.

>  It took the event of 9/11 to get the government
>to actually start down the road to a solution.  Now we have
>highly radioactive fuel rods being stored all over the
>country, on the surface and, in many cases, without suitable
>protection.

I can only remention the issue I raised in my first paragraph, Is 
Paul Brown being supressed? Why haven't his claims been investigated? 
Is someone going to profit by the underground fuel rod storage? Or do 
Brown's claims so violate the pet paradigm of the scientific 
establishment that they can't deal with them?

>  Greed and stupidly have always been dangerous,

Yup.

>  but
>now that civilization has gotten more complex, the risk to
>us all is going up.  Do we always have to wait until a
>disaster occurs before an obvious risk is eliminated?
>
>Ed Storms


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  2 11:27:28 2001
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Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:24:49 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Aurthur C. Clark's 1% gravity reduction confirmed by NASA?!
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On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Well, sort of.  :)
> 
> What did he know, and when did he know it?
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/
> 
> Look near the bottom of the page in "Space Chronicles". It's a 
> javascript link, so I can't post a direct URL.

I futzed around and found the direct page:

  CNN Space Chronicles
  http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/specials/scenes/frameset.exclude.html


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  2 12:32:51 2001
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From: "xplorer" <xplorer indo.net.id>
To: "Howe Terry" <thowe attglobal.net>,
        "Tarin Jean" <jean_g_tarin email.mobil.com>,
        "Tovey John" <JTovey compuserve.com>
Cc: "Cook Robert" <rhcook attglobal.net>
Subject: FW: [svpvril] Fwd:  Random Noise From Within Objects Reveals Their Internal Structure
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 03:33:49 +0700
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Hey guys,

This is what I've been saying,
 only these guys have the time to research the best way to do it.
Recording long noise strips in Bojo should be enough,
 never mind trying to site exp or AWD source...

I've already done it once with virtual noise [AWD 'data'],
 but the records were too short to
 do it well enough to present.

regards
Paul E. Anderson


> -----Original Message-----
> From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com]
> Sent: 2001 December 01 Saturday 23:57
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: [svpvril] Fwd: Random Noise From Within Objects Reveals
> Their Internal Structure
> 
> 
> >   Subject: Random Noise From Within Objects Reveals Their Internal
> >Structure
> >
> >
> >      
> >         Source:   University Of Illinois At Urbana-Champaign
> >(http://www.uiuc.edu)
> >            
> >      
> >         Date:   Posted 11/26/2001
> >
> >   Random Noise From Within Objects Reveals Their Internal Structure
> >
> >   CHAMPAIGN, Ill. - By picking up the tiny vibrations of thermal
> >energy that exist naturally in all objects, researchers at the
> >University of Illinois have performed ultrasonic measurements without
> >using a source. Potential applications range from seismology to
> >materials science.
> >   As reported in the Sept. 24 issue of Physical Review Letters, UI
> >professor of theoretical and applied mechanics Richard Weaver and
> >research associate Oleg Lobkis measured minuscule sound waves -
> >called phonons - propagating within a block of aluminum at room
> >temperature.
> >
> >   "The sound we were listening to was created by arbitrary thermal
> >fluctuations generated elsewhere in the sample, such as an electron
> >hitting a lattice imperfection or an air molecule striking the
> >surface," Weaver said. "While no one had really doubted that these
> >tiny fluctuations existed, no one had ever measured them before."
> >
> >   Weaver and Lobkis not only proved that the vibrations were indeed
> >measurable, they also showed that by correlating what appeared to be
> >random noise, considerable information could be gleaned about an
> >object's interior. First, they listened to the noise, then they used
> >mathematical operations that looked for patterns and repetitions - a
> >process called autocorrelation.
> >
> >   "Like BBs rattling inside a box, phonons will bounce off the walls
> >of the aluminum, ricochet off some internal structure, and bounce off
> >the walls again, corresponding to the round-trip travel time of an
> >echo," Weaver said. "We looked for correlations within the echoes."
> >
> >   Weaver and Lobkis validated their technique by autocorrelating the
> >noise from a passive piezoelectric transducer mounted to the sample
> >and then comparing that result with an active measurement they
> >obtained using conventional ultrasonics. "The waveforms were almost
> >identical," Weaver said. "When you autocorrelate the ambient noise,
> >you see nearly the same signal as when you pulse the transducer and
> >listen to the echoes."
> >
> >   This surprising result is something scientists have been
> >overlooking for decades, Weaver said. "We've been throwing away this
> >noise - not realizing that it's full of useful information."
> >
> >   In principle, the passive technique could work on nearly any
> >object, but would be most helpful in applications where conventional
> >sound sources are scarce. At very low frequencies, for example,
> >seismologists could pick up the random vibrations from distant
> >earthquakes to obtain local stratigraphic information without setting
> >off directed explosives. At extremely high frequencies, the technique
> >could be used to noninvasively probe micron-sized features and
> >material properties in microchips.
> >
> >   "The technique also might be useful for monitoring building
> >vibrations to anticipate potential collapse," Weaver said. "By
> >measuring the natural frequencies of the building as it responds to
> >random vibrations in the neighborhood, even subtle changes in
> >structural rigidity could be detected."
> >
> >   The National Science Foundation funded the research.
> >
> >
> >   Editor's Note: The original news release can be found at
> >http://www.news.uiuc.edu/scitips/01/11ultrasonics.html
> >
> >
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >--------
> >      
> >   Note: This story has been adapted from a news release issued by
> >University Of Illinois At Urbana-Champaign for journalists and other
> >members of the public. If you wish to quote from any part of this
> >story, please credit University Of Illinois At Urbana-Champaign as
> >the original source. You may also wish to include the following link
> >in any citation:
> >
> >   http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/11/011120054110.htm
> >      
> >
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >--------
> >--- End forwarded message ---
> >
> >
> >
> >Get your FREE SVP catalog of 400 books, pamphlets & videos.
> >
> >Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com.
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> --
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  2 15:11:41 2001
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Subject: Re: Speaking of heresies
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On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, thomas malloy wrote:

> William's posting on Cavers and nanos and heresy (oh my!)  reminds me 
> of several scientific heresies.
> 
> Wilhelm Reich's writing on Orgone energy. There was something that he 
> did with heat sterilized sand. The energy emanating from the sand 
> gave him a tan through his clothing. Hum, this makes me wonder if he 
> fathered any children following this experiment, and if his death was 
> related to exposure to this energy. As I recall, Reich wrote about 
> little living entities that showed up in this sand.

DOH!  I forgot all about "biones".  Apparantly many of the nanobacteria
are thermophiles.  Not only can they survive at far above 100C, they
prefer it. Baking in an oven doesn't necessarily sterilize things.  The
Dark Life book even mentions a biologist's confusion at being unable to
kill some organism at 350C for an hour in an autoclave. 

And then there's R.R. Rife and his virus-sized cancer organisms.  If Rife
wasn't a genuine crackpot, maybe he crashed into the same wall of
scoffers as the nanobacteria supporters.


VERY WEIRD THOUGHT:  maybe certain palladium electrodes are "active" 
because they have the right sort of nanobacterial contamination.  Maybe CF
reactions of the Pons/Fleichman sort originate inside living cells which
have figured out how to feast off of metal hydrides.  If 300C doesn't kill
them, and if "battery acid" is their preferred environment, they might
infest all sorts of "sterile" chemistry work.  

One claim made repeatedly in the Dark Life book is that wherever you find
tiny weird mineral crystal structures, "nanos" are the culprits.  Recall
the SEM photo which appears on Mizuno's book?  See:
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/OnlineStore.html and think of
the phrase "microscopic mineral structures mediated by nanobacterial
activity." 

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  2 17:30:12 2001
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Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:34:33 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Is this yours?   ..41 kb list (fwd)
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	If this looks like your mailing list......you probably have a
script or macro virus......

	Is is taking THIS list...below ...and mailing it out as though
these people are or were the originators.... and it is putting a dash in
from of their e mail addresses.

	Please let me know....


heffect infinet.net
pete.moore dial.pipex.com
mjaunsen prodigy.net
cmaj sympatico.ca
rse tah-usa.net





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  2 19:59:55 2001
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Dear John,

The mail you received is NOT posted at \/ortex. I did (also) received a 40kb mail from heffect which contain BadTrans.B virus. It can runs automatically on unpatched outlook express.

John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         If this looks like your mailing list......you probably have a
> script or macro virus......
> 
>         Is is taking THIS list...below ...and mailing it out as though
> these people are or were the originators.... and it is putting a dash in
> from of their e mail addresses.
> 
>         Please let me know....
> 
> heffect infinet.net
> pete.moore dial.pipex.com
> mjaunsen prodigy.net
> cmaj sympatico.ca
> rse tah-usa.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  2 20:05:39 2001
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Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:05:23 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: The sun also sucks matter in
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I've always heard that the sun expelled matter. According to this 
website it also sucks matter in. 
http://www.cosmiverse.com/space11210101.html
-- 

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I read a theory that the Big Bang is a false conspiracy to cover up the 
conservation of perpetual motion in the universe, where all the solar objects 
rotate in percfect circles forever, no big bang, and planets are life forms 
which grow from sun light and photosynthesis.  The sun may give birth to a 
sperical planet or asteroid every now and then, which flings out form the 
sun, and then the planet finds an orbit, and grows depending on its spiritual 
properties given to it by the sun. 


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
www.rhfweb.com
tom rhfweb.com\personal


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>I read a theory that the Big Bang is a false conspiracy to cover up the conservation of perpetual motion in the universe, where all the solar objects rotate in percfect circles forever, no big bang, and plane
ts are life forms which grow from sun light and photosynthesis. &nbsp;The sun may give birth to a sperical planet or asteroid every now and then, which flings out form the sun, and then the planet finds an orbit, and grows depending on its spiritual prope
rties given to it by the sun. 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Respectfully,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>www.rhfweb.com
<BR>tom rhfweb.com\personal
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_173.132df5.293c614f_boundary--

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Another disaster waiting to happen
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 16:15:28 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Sun, 2 Dec 2001 12:17:11 -0600:
[snip]
>I can only remention the issue I raised in my first paragraph, Is 
>Paul Brown being supressed? Why haven't his claims been investigated? 
>Is someone going to profit by the underground fuel rod storage? Or do 
>Brown's claims so violate the pet paradigm of the scientific 
>establishment that they can't deal with them?
[snip]
[soap box mode on]
Yes, by default. His is one possible method of reprocessing used fuel.
There are other methods. The green movement won't allow any reprocessing
to take place at all, in the hopes of indirectly suppressing the use of
nuclear energy altogether.
[soap box mode off]


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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What will this do for Biefield-Brown and "Gravity Capacitors"?  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

 http://www.edtneurope.com/story/tech/OEG20010726S0014-R
Compound oxide offers high dielectric constant
By Nolan Fell
Electronics Times
(07/30/01, 7:17 a.m. EDT)

Scientists at the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York, the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology, Los Alomos National Laboratory and the University of Toronto,
have discovered a compound oxide with a dielectric constant of 80 000.

The team, which reports its discovery in Science, carried out optical conductivity
experiments on CaCu3Ti4O12 and established the dielectric figure at kilohertz radio
frequencies. In the terahertz range, the constant drops to 80. As well as
demonstrating such a high dielectric constant, the figure is steady in a temperature
range of 100 to 600K.

Arthur Ramirez, leader of the condensed matter and thermal physics group at Los Alomos
and an author of the paper, admits that the researchers are still baffled as to why
the material possesses such qualities.

"We don't understand what's going on. But from a materials point of view, it has
features that are unique," said Ramirez. "You can make other materials with this
property, but they require a lot of mixing and there are materials issues such as
problems at grain boundaries.

"My feeling is there is something very subtle going on with the geometry of the atoms.
It is very like a ferroelectric but it can't quite work out how to become one."


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  3 05:00:37 2001
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 07:56:39 EST
Subject: Oil expert predicts world oil production peak
To: <"Hal Fox" aol.com>, <JedRothwell@infinite-energy.com>,
        <editor infinite-energy.com>, Edmund Storms <storms2@ix.netcom.com>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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World energy expert predicts world energy production peak.  Same expert predicted 1970's energy crisis.
Jed you should like this show.

search "NPR"

once in NPR search "OIL"  Friday November 30 2001

Frank Znidarsic

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Nature Science Update Highlights: 3 December 2001
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 08:50:00 -0500
From: "Nature Science Update" <NatureScienceUpdateAlert us.nature.com>
Reply-To: Customer Service <tocreplies appserver5.nature.com>
To: "Nature Science Update" <NatureScienceUpdateAlert us.nature.com>

NATURE SCIENCE UPDATE WEEKLY HIGHLIGHTS

Now available at http://www.nature.com/nsu/

Discover the most fascinating things to happen in science this week:
a collection of authoritative, informative and entertaining
science news stories from Nature News Service
Updated every day at midnight GMT and available for free!

Nature Science Update Highlights: 3 December 2001
(c) Copyright Nature News Service 2001

=====================================================================
Announcing the launch of NATURE REVIEWS DRUG DISCOVERY 

January 2002 sees the launch of Nature Reviews Drug Discovery, a new 
monthly review journal providing high-quality, peer-reviewed articles
from leaders in the field.  

Don’t miss out on pre-launch subscription discounts 
- offer ends 31 December 2001 
http://www.nature.com/reviews/drugdisc

=====================================================================

The littlest lizard
World's smallest reptile is discovered in the Caribbean forest.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011206/011206-3.html

Good vibrations
Honeycomb geometry helps dancing bees gather an audience.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011206/011206-4.html
 
Exercising your genes
Researchers are homing in on the genetics of physical ability.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011206/011206-5.html
 
Reserves raise fish stocks
Fishing thrives alongside protected areas.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011206/011206-1.html
 
Catch figures fishy
Recalculation reveals falling global fish stocks.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011129/011129-12.html
 
Massive hole makes theories leaky
Surprising black hole weigh-in has astronomers scratching their heads.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011129/011129-13.html
 
Mothers could save the whale
Sparing a few right whale mums could keep the species from extinction.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011129/011129-14.html
 
Exorcising Einstein's spooks
Is there another layer of reality beyond quantum physics?
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011129/011129-15.html
 
Human clone not miracle cure
Rewiring the egg: mechanism remains murky.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011129/011129-9.html
 
Feel the music
Deaf people use 'mind's ear' to process vibrations.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011129/011129-10.html
 
Distant starlight reveals alien atmosphere
Hubble spots atmosphere on planet 150 light years away.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011129/011129-11.html
 
Global goal frenzy
It's official: English football teams score fewer goals.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011129/011129-8.html
 
Neutrinos feel the force
The orthodox worldview of fundamental physics is challenged by new
experiments.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011129/011129-7.html
  
DNA repair could reduce sunburn
An immune system chemical may undo skin damage by sunlight.
http://www.nature.com/nsu/011129/011129-6.html

=====================================================================
  
  Nature Science Update is produced by the Nature News Service
  -- the popular science news syndication arm of the leading
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**  Like the stories you read online? Share them with a friend by
clicking on "Send to a friend".

=====================================================================
Coming 3 December 2001 - ‘Milestones in Cell Division’ 
http://www.nature.com/celldivision

‘Milestones in Cell Division’ comprises a specially written series of
highlight articles on the main discoveries that have shaped the field
of cell division.

The website includes free access to selected articles, reviews and 
other related material published by the Nature Publishing Group.

View the wealth of information available to you for free between 
December 2001 - June 2002 at http://www.nature.com/celldivision

‘Milestones in Cell Division’ has been produced with support from 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  3 07:36:26 2001
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: We have been waiting to see... IT
Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com
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http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/GoodMorningAmerica/GMA011203What_IT_is.html
Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  3 08:03:03 2001
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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 11:03:35 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
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Here is the latest on tracking the anthrax source:

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/100711627612637199.xml

Be sure you get the latest URL.  

I think Hamdi mentioned that his local news said it was domestic
terrorism.  This article supports that theory.

BTW, did everyone see Ginger?  Time Mag has a javascript
diagram.  No Sterling shown, however.

Terry

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Doh, stupid scooter after all!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  3 08:53:44 2001
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To: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of heresies
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William Beaty wrote:

>VERY WEIRD THOUGHT:  maybe certain palladium electrodes are "active" 
>because they have the right sort of nanobacterial contamination.  Maybe CF 
>reactions of the Pons/Fleichman sort originate inside living cells which 
>have figured out how to feast off of metal hydrides.  If 300C doesn't kill 
>them, and if "battery acid" is their preferred environment, they might 
>infest all sorts of "sterile" chemistry work.

I doubt that, but it seems clear that Ralstonia detusculanense bacteria 
have been preventing CF reactions, but feasting off of metal hydrides. 
Sometime after 1942 one of these fell into a vat of heavy water somewhere, 
and they have been infecting heavy water ever since, probably at Ontario 
Hydro. I don't see how they could cross into supplies in Russia and 
elsewhere, but life has astounding properties. 300 deg C does kill them, 
and the usual lithium electrolyte used in most CF experiments does too, but 
a 30 mega-rem dose of radiation does not bother them. Astounding!

- Jed

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Lessons from the Enron collapse
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:04:24 -0500
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On Friday 30 November 2001 06:28 pm, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Ryan Hopkins wrote:
> >Suddenly, monetary investment in near-obsolete fuel technology is coming
> >into sharp focus.
>
> Yes, that is the core story here. Enron did many things wrong, such as
> investing in fiber optic networks, and it was corrupt in some ways. But
> many large corporations are corrupt, and they all lose money in risky
> ventures from time to time. I think the real cause of the downfall was
> exactly what Hopkins said: Enron was trying to sell obsolete technology.
> The public, especially in California, said no thanks, we would rather cut
> consumption by 10% by conserving with new refrigerators and compact
> fluorescent lights. Bingo, Enron goes down the tubes.
>
> Last year V.P. Cheney said conservation is a "private virtue" that cannot
> affect nation level energy consumption or policy. This year, conservation
> bankrupted the seventh largest company in the U.S. practically overnight.
>
> - Jed


Wish I could agree with you Jed, but I think this one was brought on
in a more familiar, closer to home way.......greed, and fraud with
overtones of political connections in very high places reaching 
all the way to the top administrative offices in our country.  Cannot
name names here as look at what is left of our Constitution these
days.   These 'Enron' folks appeared to not own a single oil well
or refinery save a power plant in India that refused to sell power
unless it could gouge the Indians.  There whole operation was a
backroom......a LOT of backrooms where all kinds of 'deals' were
made.  Their stock reinvented the old 'Laissez-Faire' era of the
1880's monopoly days of 'blue sky' stock.  Laws were put in
place after the Great Depression to stop 'blue sky' operations,
but under a succession of Republican administrations these have
mostly gone repealed or/and unenforced.   One of the most recent
was the repeal of the Glass-Steagal Act which had prevented
banks from taking a flyer on the stock market with your savings
deposits.  Now our current president wants to invest your Social
Security Trust Fund in companies JUST like Enron.  Under the
cover of 'protection against terrorism', he just might.   Now you
know that crazy man that tried to blow up the Reichstag in
Germany in 1934 and assured the rise to power of Hitler was
always suspected to really be a nazi....... 
	Read about a previous scandal in Canada involving a
gold mining venture in Inodnesia involving the father of a US
president, a former prime minister of Canada from the old
'Pregressive Conservative Party, and the children of a former
dictator of Indonesia who in the early '90s controlled the mining
concessions in that country.  One country discovered the gold,
but political connections and bribes stole from them the fruiits of
their endeavor.  "This Hour has Twenty-Two Minutes", a weekly
television politital satire,  had some more juicy and well researched
tidbits on it.  Since CBC was and is still under the control of the
Liberal Government of Canada, there was no censorship then of
this, although good research was done to protect against libel
suits.
	Bottom line is that out governments are rotten just about
to the core.  Watch for incidents like happened this morning on
'ABC':  an interview with an American fighting ALONGSIDE the
Taliban was suddenly cut short before the man could spead...
....due to 'technical diffulties........!   Yeah!  I REALLY believe that
one.  We again have a Republican government in power, only
it now has a few more tools to shield itself along the lines of
'Executive Priviledge".  I do not like the Taliban any more than
any other real American, but would like to hear what he had
to say.......THEN take his sorry butt to Guam or Wake Island
to his firing squad that I am sure that is in store for some of
these huckleberries.

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  3 09:12:38 2001
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thomas malloy wrote:

>>The ten largest bankruptcy filings since 1980 include two energy 
>>companies: Texaco (1987, $35 billion - the largest in history), and 
>>Pacific Gas & Electric (2001, $22 billion). (Bankrupcydata.com) Enron 
>>will probably cause ~$62 billion in losses, twice the world record.
>
>Does this include the value of the stock when it was at it's peak?

I think I misread that article. I think the $35 and $62 billion are the 
assets owned by the company at the time of the bankruptcy filing. See this 
follow-up article with the same chart:

http://money.cnn.com/2001/12/03/companies/enron/


>I failed to notice any response from any of you people to my posting on 
>the 100 MPG + carburator.

We have heard so many similar stories there is nothing left to say.


>  It is either so much B S, more of the mythos of the F E story, or else 
> it is a classic example of an inventor who was falsely imprisoned on drug 
> charges by the local police after he did some thing which threatened the 
> oil companies. We shall see.

I doubt we shall ever see. Stories like this come and go, without 
resolution. The only credible sounding one I heard was told by Paul Brown, 
but I have no proof that his lurid claims are true. He might have made up 
the whole adventure.

The only energy innovators I know who are definitely, surely persecuted are 
cold fusion researchers. The persecution & opposition is not a bit lurid. 
It is the same treatment countless other people have encountered in other 
fields of science, technology, business, medicine, etc. etc. For example, a 
woman named Margaret Rawson died the other day at age 102, in Frederick 
Maryland. She was a pioneering psychologist & educator, and one of the 
foremost authorities on problems with dyslexia. She was also a remarkable 
person who took up flying in her 70s. Here is part of her obituary, from 
the Baltimore Sun:

"[In the mid-1930s] frustrated at her inability to teach a bright 
second-grader to read, Mrs. Rawson discovered the work of Samuel T. Orton, 
a neurologist who was the first in the country to identify dyslexia and 
trace its origin.

Testing the boy, Dr. Orton recognized the signs of what came to be known as 
dyslexia and returned him with a set of instructions - now called the 
Orton-Gilligham method - on how to help overcome his reading difficulties.

The boy was soon reading at grade level, and Mrs. Rawson was launched on a 
lifelong mission. It was often a lonely one, in which she encountered 
misunderstanding and, sometimes, hostility."

http://www.interdys.org/rawson-obit.htm

In light of our present knowledge of dyslexia, it seems incredible that 
anyone would oppose, resist or criticize Rawson. She was a world class 
expert and founder of a professional association with 13,500 members. 
Dyslexia is not a controversial disease. Compared to most others, it is 
easy to diagnose and cure. I guess people opposed her because they were 
embarrassed by the problem or they felt hostile toward the patients. I find 
such attitudes unfathomable.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  3 09:41:35 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Oil expert predicts world oil production peak
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FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

>World energy expert predicts world energy production peak.  Same expert 
>predicted 1970's energy crisis.
>Jed you should like this show.
>
>search "NPR"
>
>once in NPR search "OIL"  Friday November 30 2001

Frank: Can you be a bit more specific? What is web page address?

In the 1970s one leading expert predicted that U.S. oil production would 
soon peak. He was right. The curve of production followed his prediction. I 
think he recently predicted world production will peak around 2050. The 
sooner oil runs out, the better, in my opinion.

This was described in a recent issue of Sci. Am., but I do not recall which 
one, and their web site is down at the moment.

- Jed

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I wrote:

>I doubt that, but it seems clear that Ralstonia detusculanense bacteria 
>have been preventing CF reactions, but feasting off of metal hydrides.

Meant: . . . by feasting off of metal hydrides.

That according to Celani. The bacteria like to eat the mercury coating 
Celani uses on his thin wire devices.

- Jed

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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >VERY WEIRD THOUGHT:  maybe certain palladium electrodes are "active" 
> >because they have the right sort of nanobacterial contamination.  Maybe CF 
> 
> I doubt that, but it seems clear that Ralstonia detusculanense bacteria 
> have been preventing CF reactions, but feasting off of metal hydrides. 

Interesting!

> Sometime after 1942 one of these fell into a vat of heavy water somewhere, 
> and they have been infecting heavy water ever since, probably at Ontario 
> Hydro. I don't see how they could cross into supplies in Russia and 
> elsewhere, but life has astounding properties. 300 deg C does kill them, 
> and the usual lithium electrolyte used in most CF experiments does too, but 
> a 30 mega-rem dose of radiation does not bother them. Astounding!

Well, the claimed characteristics of nano-life are:

 - most biologists disbelieve their existence & assume they are
       just viruses (can't replicate)
 - about 10x smaller than bacteria (50-100 nM size)
 - easily missed under older SEM scans
 - many thermophiles, mostly anaerobes
 - they contaminate most everything
 - responsible for many effects previously assumed to be 
      purely chemistry (metal corrosion, cave's carbonate chemistry)
 - not killed by high temperatures (they live in 700F "black smokers")

If nanos are real, then there's no doubt that a CF cell is contaminated. 
It would take special techniques to disinfect the equipment.  Obviously if
they are responsible for any CF phenomena, they would be performing
bio-transmutation.



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


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Two last results of the ab-initio simulation of Pd-H hybrid crystals.
For a crystal of 4 Pd atoms and 12 H atoms
Total Energy = -3398.8257425 eV
 Final atomic positions:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Element  Atom     Fractional coordinates       Forces in cartesian (eV/A)
         number    after optimization step      before optimization step
                    u         v         w        Fx        Fy        Fz

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Pd       1    0.33612   0.01272  -0.07306  -0.02527   0.00761   0.00452
   Pd       2    0.52101   0.50397  -0.17311   0.00245   0.00756   0.01700
   Pd       3    0.02372   0.60352   0.72558  -0.00226  -0.03552   0.01887
   Pd       4    0.54029  -0.06725   0.42830   0.00604   0.01890  -0.00298
   H        1    0.22496   0.35264  -0.11605   0.00409  -0.00649  -0.01628
   H        2    0.07716   0.80155  -0.02432  -0.00191  -0.00339   0.00278
   H        3    0.80576   0.04894   0.22724   0.00883   0.00990   0.00136
   H        4    0.47262   0.75598   0.11384   0.00064   0.00256  -0.00717
   H        5    0.09457   0.39456   0.41695   0.00080  -0.00115  -0.00135
   H        6   -0.18907   0.42241   0.90525   0.00173   0.00459  -0.00339
   H        7   -0.02756   0.46896   0.37646   0.00282  -0.01103  -0.00885
   H        8   -0.28386   0.74168   0.67137   0.01379  -0.00728  -0.00061
   H        9    0.36358   0.14142   0.23117  -0.00862   0.00321  -0.00989
   H       10    0.27876  -0.16072   0.60161  -0.01104  -0.00161  -0.00070
   H       11    0.87881  -0.01588   0.34668  -0.00083   0.00078  -0.00800
   H       12    0.55905   0.19451   0.68666   0.00874   0.01136   0.01469

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
              CELL GEOMETRY AFTER STEP 223  
          ----------------------------------

   Cell  Dimensions (Angstrom)          Cell  Angles
    a =      5.426563   Free           alpha =  90.771593   Free   
    b =      5.062229   Free           beta  =  90.148926   Free   
    c =      5.120844   Free           gamma =  89.591817   Free   
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


For a crystal of 4 Pd atoms and 10 H atoms:

 TOTAL ENERGY IS               -3367.4243301 (eV)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Element  Atom     Fractional coordinates       Forces in cartesian (eV/A)
         number    after optimization step      before optimization step
                    u         v         w        Fx        Fy        Fz

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Pd       1   -0.01423  -0.10320  -0.04062   0.00387   0.01605   0.01284
   Pd       2    0.46211   0.64918   0.01452  -0.01282  -0.01262  -0.00632
   Pd       3   -0.03803   0.36062   0.51546   0.00345   0.00556  -0.00212
   Pd       4    0.48585   0.11226   0.45885  -0.00311  -0.00567  -0.00010
   H        1    0.37200   0.37635   0.28563  -0.00455  -0.00295   0.00297
   H        2    0.38714  -0.13382  -0.23724  -0.00398   0.00143   0.00126
   H        3   -0.17353   0.10890  -0.20297  -0.00005  -0.00119  -0.00289
   H        4   -0.11315   0.14218   0.26422   0.00581  -0.00245   0.00161
   H        5    0.86981   0.63477   0.78510   0.00508  -0.00107   0.00574
   H        6    0.16348   0.21411   0.72498   0.00364   0.00262  -0.00290
   H        7    0.09915   0.61278   0.15666  -0.00539   0.00178  -0.00142
   H        8    0.66300  -0.20464   0.22455   0.00138  -0.00317  -0.00008
   H        9    0.32536   0.90125   0.29685   0.00099  -0.00212  -0.01001
   H       10    0.59883   0.39574   0.65716   0.00569   0.00380   0.00141

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



          ----------------------------------
              CELL GEOMETRY AFTER STEP 100  
          ----------------------------------

   Cell  Dimensions (Angstrom)          Cell  Angles
    a =      5.284277   Free           alpha =  89.993070   Free   
    b =      4.847545   Free           beta  =  63.644965   Free   
    c =      4.841787   Free           gamma =  90.046893   Free   

          Cell volume:    111.134825 (Angstrom^3)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

This will be the last data for a while.

Hope it does somebody some good.

Hank

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: PdH3 crystal
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 14:52:06 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  hank scudder's message of Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:58:59 -0800:

>Two last results of the ab-initio simulation of Pd-H hybrid crystals.
>For a crystal of 4 Pd atoms and 12 H atoms
>Total Energy = -3398.8257425 eV
[snip]
Hi Hank,

This is still -212 eV per atom. How do you reconcile this with reality?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  4 07:04:56 2001
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:02:19 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Oil expert predicts world oil production peak
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I wrote:

>In the 1970s one leading expert predicted that U.S. oil production would 
>soon peak. He was right. The curve of production followed his prediction. 
>I think he recently predicted world production will peak around 2050. The 
>sooner oil runs out, the better, in my opinion.

See:

http://130.94.24.217/2001/1001issue/1001reviews1.html

The End of Oil

Review by PAUL RAEBURN

Hubbert's Peak:
The Impending
World Oil Shortage
by Kenneth S. Deffeyes
Princeton University Press, 2001

QUOTE FROM SCI. AM. REVIEW:

You have to wonder about the judgment of a man who writes, "As I drive by 
those smelly refineries on the New Jersey Turnpike, I want to roll the 
windows down and inhale deeply." But for Kenneth S. Deffeyes, that's the 
smell of home. The son of a petroleum engineer, he was born in Oklahoma, 
"grew up in the oil patch," became a geologist and worked for Shell Oil 
before becoming a professor at Princeton University. And he still knows how 
to wield a 36-inch-long pipe wrench . . .


- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  4 09:23:09 2001
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:14:55 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: PdH3 crystal
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Robin
	That is the energy to assemble the unit crystal, moving in the
atoms from infinity. If I get a chance I will get the binding energies for
them.

Hank

On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  hank scudder's message of Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:58:59 -0800:
> 
> >Two last results of the ab-initio simulation of Pd-H hybrid crystals.
> >For a crystal of 4 Pd atoms and 12 H atoms
> >Total Energy = -3398.8257425 eV
> [snip]
> Hi Hank,
> 
> This is still -212 eV per atom. How do you reconcile this with reality?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  4 12:57:23 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: PdH3 crystal
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 07:53:24 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  hank scudder's message of Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:14:55 -0800:

>Robin
>	That is the energy to assemble the unit crystal, moving in the
>atoms from infinity. If I get a chance I will get the binding energies for
>them.
>
>Hank
Hi Hank,

As I understand it "moving in the atoms from infinity" is the definition
of binding energy.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  4 14:34:33 2001
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http://www.jxcrystals.com/

CA

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  4 14:52:42 2001
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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 14:46:48 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: PdH3 crystal
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Robin
	To me, Binding energy of a compound or crystal is the difference
between the sum of the energy of an assembledge of the atoms of one type,
Pd here, and of another type, the H here, in the same positions as they
are in the crystal, and that of the complete crystal. For example, for the
PdH3 crystal, the Total energy of the crystal is -3398.8257 eV, the energy
of the Pd atoms alone, but in the same positions as the crystal is
-3202.4382 eV and the Hydrogen atoms alone is -172.9349. Subtracting the
last two from the first gives -23.4527 eV as the binding energy of the
crystal. You can divide this by 12 to get the energy per H atom, or by 4
to get the energy per Pd atom. This seems to say that the different PdH
hydrides are potentially stable, if they can be actually created. I am
currently running the Pd4H10 crystal to get its binding energy.

I believe that there is a phase change between PdH, with its fcc
structure, and PdH2, with its trigonal structure, but the PdH3 crystal
seems to go back to an fcc structure. I know very little about
crystalography, just what is in the first chapter of Kittel's
"Introduction to Solid State Physics" book. The Pd4H10 crystal seems to be
somewhere inbetween the two structures. You can see this if you have a 3D
display program. Just input the coordinates I  posted.

Hank

 

On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  hank scudder's message of Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:14:55 -0800:
> 
> >Robin
> >	That is the energy to assemble the unit crystal, moving in the
> >atoms from infinity. If I get a chance I will get the binding energies for
> >them.
> >
> >Hank
> Hi Hank,
> 
> As I understand it "moving in the atoms from infinity" is the definition
> of binding energy.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  4 19:39:06 2001
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 22:35:16 -0800
Subject: Segway site --official
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Ginger site:

Official Segway [Ginger/It] Site at: http://www.segway.com/consumer/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  4 19:49:29 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: PdH3 crystal
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:48:18 +1100
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In reply to  hank scudder's message of Tue, 4 Dec 2001 14:46:48 -0800:
Hi Hank,


>Robin
>	To me, Binding energy of a compound or crystal is the difference
>between the sum of the energy of an assembledge of the atoms of one type,
>Pd here, and of another type, the H here, in the same positions as they
>are in the crystal, and that of the complete crystal. For example, for the
>PdH3 crystal, the Total energy of the crystal is -3398.8257 eV, the energy
>of the Pd atoms alone, but in the same positions as the crystal is
>-3202.4382 eV and the Hydrogen atoms alone is -172.9349. Subtracting the
>last two from the first gives -23.4527 eV as the binding energy of the
>crystal. You can divide this by 12 to get the energy per H atom, or by 4
>to get the energy per Pd atom. This seems to say that the different PdH
>hydrides are potentially stable, if they can be actually created. I am
>currently running the Pd4H10 crystal to get its binding energy.

The implication from the above is that the binding energy of the Pd
atoms alone (i.e. the energy which binds Pd atoms together in Pd metal)
is -3202.4382 eV / 4 Pd atoms = -800 eV / Pd atom.

This just doesn't make sense. The latent heat of vaporisation of Pd is
357 kJ/mol which is  3.7 eV / atom. Add to this the energy required to
bring it to the boiling point (which will be less than that), and one
has at most 7.4 eV / atom, not 800 eV / atom.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 02:51:00 2001
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Cc: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>,
        "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger suite224.net>, <puthoff@earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Antigavity Effects in a Fluorescent Tube?
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 03:46:57 -0600
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Assuming that gravity is a magnetic effect from VERY SLOW MOVING CHARGE in a conductor
as opposed to the near lights peed charge flow in most conductors and transmission
lines the "heavy ion drift" in a fluorescent tube
(especially a circular one) operated on D.C. might show
gravity/antigravity effects.

IOW, a positive ion current due to ions moving at 1.0E4 meters/sec or less, might show
more gravity interaction than electron charge flow moving at pulse propagation
velocities in conductors of 2.0E8 meters/second or more.

OTOH, Hundreds of amps of Cs+ ions drawn off a hot tungsten surface could  be made to
move at 1.0E3 meters/second or so at about 1.0 volts electrode potential, fluorescent
tubes are easier to come by.

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 08:21:26 2001
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Subject: Re: Segway site --official
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One transportation expert quoted in the newspaper said this device is 
"$2000 too expensive and 40 pounds too heavy." I agree, but the price might 
fall to ~$1000. If they market it correctly, and they get lucky, they may 
find substantial niche markets for the machine. In the U.S. they can sell 
thousands in large warehouses, university and hospital complexes, and 
airports. I see mechanics and other people around this airport (the second 
largest in Georgia) riding electric scooters, golf carts and bicycles. 
Overseas they could sell millions, in cities such as London, Copenhagen, 
Tokyo, Osaka and Hong Kong.

I do not think it would be practical to ride this vehicle on the sidewalk.

The problem is that the competition is bicycles. They are faster, and very 
cheap these days. I have seen some pretty good ones for $200, weighing 
about 20 lbs I estimate. In Atlanta you can take one on the subway, and 
park it in space reserved for luggage.

Railroad stations in Japan have thousands of bicycles parked outside by 
commuters. The other day I read that thousands of bicycles are abandoned in 
the cities every year. An organization collected a thousand or so, took 
possession, and painted them bright red. They are being offered at stations 
to anyone who wants to borrow one for free, or perhaps $1 per day, like the 
luggage carts and wheelchairs at airports.

The vehicle has some advanced features such a puncture proof tires and an 
electronic lock. Someone should make an electric bicycle with similar 
features.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 09:02:37 2001
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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:59:47 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of heresies
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>Jed worte;
>
>>I doubt that, but it seems clear that Ralstonia detusculanense 
>>bacteria have been preventing CF reactions, but feasting off of 
>>metal hydrides.
>
>Meant: . . . by feasting off of metal hydrides.
>
>That according to Celani. The bacteria like to eat the mercury 
>coating Celani uses on his thin wire devices.


bacteria that metabolize metal hydrides and mercury? This is just too weird.


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 09:10:22 2001
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Subject: The story about bugging the Mafia Don's phones
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Someone, I think it was Jed posted a paragraph about some FBI 
operatives bugging the phone of a Mafia Don. This was an amusing 
story, I was thinking that it would be a good one for America's most 
wanted. Were did you hear that story?
-- 

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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Antigavity Effects in a Fluorescent Tube?
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On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Assuming that gravity is a magnetic effect from VERY SLOW MOVING CHARGE in a conductor


How could it be a magnetic effect from a slow moving charge? Gravity does
work and the direction of the force of gravity is towards the mass (for
practical purposes) and always attractive. Magnetic forces are in the
direction of the current and may be repulsive. 

> as opposed to the near lights peed charge flow in most conductors and transmission
> lines

While the E&M wave move at sqr(1/(epison*mu)) in the media, the charges
themselves move very slow. 

> the "heavy ion drift" in a fluorescent tube
> (especially a circular one) operated on D.C. might show
> gravity/antigravity effects.
 
> IOW, a positive ion current due to ions moving at 1.0E4 meters/sec or less, might show
> more gravity interaction than electron charge flow moving at pulse propagation
> velocities in conductors of 2.0E8 meters/second or more.
> 
> OTOH, Hundreds of amps of Cs+ ions drawn off a hot tungsten surface could  be made to
> move at 1.0E3 meters/second or so at about 1.0 volts electrode potential, fluorescent
> tubes are easier to come by.
> 
> Regards,     Frederick
> 
> 

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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Segway site --official
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On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> The problem is that the competition is bicycles. They are faster, and very 
> cheap these days. I have seen some pretty good ones for $200, weighing 
> about 20 lbs I estimate. In Atlanta you can take one on the subway, and 
> park it in space reserved for luggage.

The problem is some goody-two shoes goose stepping socialist is going to
pass a law that you have to wear a helmet and knee and shoulder pads to
ride it, and pay all kinds of licence fees and taxes just to own it. 

Bicyle riding use to be something every kid could enjoy. I use to ride my
bicycle all over town. 

My kids didn't ride theirs because of the helmet requirement (where do you
put the helmet when you get where you're going?) and they were not allowed
to ride them to school.


 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 09:42:08 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: The story about bugging the Mafia Don's phones
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thomas malloy wrote:

>Someone, I think it was Jed posted a paragraph about some FBI operatives 
>bugging the phone of a Mafia Don. This was an amusing story, I was 
>thinking that it would be a good one for America's most wanted. Were did 
>you hear that story?

That was me. I am sorry, but I do not recall where I read it. I think it is 
probably true, perhaps apocryphal. It's hilarious, anyway.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 10:30:58 2001
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:22:47 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Segway site -- official
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>The problem is some goody-two shoes goose stepping socialist is going to 
>pass a law that you have to wear a helmet and knee and shoulder pads to 
>ride it, and pay all kinds of licence fees and taxes just to own it.

Well, I am a consummate goody-two shoes capitalist, but I firmly support 
laws enforcing bicycle helmets. If you do not, I have a modest proposal:

If a person has an accident, he is not wearing a helmet, and he is severely 
injured, he will be taken to the hospital, given pain-killers, and allowed 
to die. Let nature take its course. Neither government nor private 
insurance money will be spent to save his life or rehabilitate him. That 
costs hundreds of thousands and sometimes millions of dollars, and society 
should not have to pay for people's idiotic mistakes and suicidal behavior.

After my father had a stroke, I spent many days visiting him in a 
rehabilitation hospital in Washington, DC. Many of the patients were 
"victims" of motorcycle accidents. They were young men, fractions of young 
men, and young men permanently reduced to vegetables. I use the word 
'victims' advisedly; it would more accurate to say they knowingly attempted 
suicide on motorcycles. The ones who do not wear helmets are more often 
uninsured as well. They become wards of society, requiring intensive care 
for 30 to 60 years. If we, the taxpayers, are going to take on the 
commitment to keep these idiots alive, we can darn well pass a law telling 
them not to gratuitously risk suicide at our expense.

Much as I enjoy riding bicycles, I realize they can be dangerous, 
especially in traffic. I have had serious accidents and close calls on 
them. For me, it is worth the risk and the trade-off, but it would be 
insane to deliberately increase the danger by a huge factor by not wearing 
a helmet. Bicycles are safer and more enjoyable in Japan and Europe, where 
the roads are set up for them, and lanes are provided. (Often, sidewalks 
are split with a line marking separate lanes for pedestrians and bicycles.) 
Most people do not wear helmets, but they ride slowly in safer conditions, 
and I know of few accidents.


>Bicyle riding use to be something every kid could enjoy. I use to ride my 
>bicycle all over town.

I still do, despite the hostility of automobile drivers. In Japan, everyone 
does.


>My kids didn't ride theirs because of the helmet requirement (where do you 
>put the helmet when you get where you're going?)

You snap the strap shut and hang it from the saddle post. It is unlikely 
that anyone will steal the helmet, but if they do you can chalk it up to a 
charity contribution -- you may have saved the thieve's life. If you let 
your children ride a bicycle without a helmet, you are guilty of gross 
stupidity and child abuse. Do you also let them play with gasoline soaked 
rags and a blow torch? Do you encourage them to jump up and down on the 
back seat while you drive 70 mph in a 25 mph zone? In the modern age, we 
allow parents to abuse children. In premodern times, colonial America, and 
even in the early 20th century, the town council would have taken your 
children away from you and given them over to someone with a sense of 
responsibility and respect for the law. You are lucky our society allows 
such unbridled freedom, and no longer interferes with people's private 
lives the way it used to.

(Some conservatives think that society has become more intrusive, not less. 
They have not read social history.)


>. . . and they were not allowed to ride them to school.

I have never heard of a school that does not allow children to ride 
bicycles. The ones in Atlanta have bicycle racks, although they are seldom 
used. They are not sheltered properly, which makes them useless.

- Jed

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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Segway site --official
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 14:31:45 -0500
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Hey...

I have to agree with Stephen on this one, Jed.
Darwin's law has done a pretty good job evolving us
to this point, now we're passing all kinds of other laws
to undercut it. The result will be a great increase
in idiots. I encourage folks to ride in heavy traffic
with no safety gear, preferrably towards oncoming
vehicles. Not only is it your god given right as
an American, but it helps with the population problem
to boot!

K.

PS: A modest proposal...

PSS: Segway brings a whole new meaning to the
words, "Computer Crash".


-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Lajoie [mailto:lajoie eskimo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 12:31 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Segway site --official


On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> The problem is that the competition is bicycles. They are faster, and very
> cheap these days. I have seen some pretty good ones for $200, weighing
> about 20 lbs I estimate. In Atlanta you can take one on the subway, and
> park it in space reserved for luggage.

The problem is some goody-two shoes goose stepping socialist is going to
pass a law that you have to wear a helmet and knee and shoulder pads to
ride it, and pay all kinds of licence fees and taxes just to own it.

Bicyle riding use to be something every kid could enjoy. I use to ride my
bicycle all over town.

My kids didn't ride theirs because of the helmet requirement (where do you
put the helmet when you get where you're going?) and they were not allowed
to ride them to school.





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 11:31:55 2001
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 21:28:48 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Jed,

The main problem is with Segway, I think, it is not hand free. one cant possibly carry something at hand while riding it.

Maybe it is more easier to convert a 4 wheel wheel chair to 2 wheel chair, and keeping people sitting, but in more vertical position, half standing, Big wheels facilitate balancing. I had used wheel chair 10 years ago at Comdex fair and at airport. It is 
great convenience and great for carrying all heavy things. It take huge loads perfectly. (I was a bit disabled that time, still is, but it dont prevent walking and running, but I cant dive, play tennis and cant perform advance skills of windsurfing)

Maybe even a great idea with Segway is implementing a walking band on it. :))

People can still exercise walking while traveling with Segway, and they could keep their condition good. Actually I think this issue was the main advantage of bicycle over Segway. :) The device can be programmed to adapt band slope to land slope, so user 
feeling would have more realistic exercising experience.:) If this exercising feature is added, battery duration could be extended and Segway may even worth $5000.:)


Although, walking exercising would not be mandatory for Segway moves, exercising would be encouraged by allowing Segway moves faster, boosted by human power, especially very useful feature for those are late for their work. 

Beyond joke, another "bright" idea comes to my mind is adding self navigating capability and programmability to Segway, rendering it as a general carrier, both for human, and cargo. It would have a robotic arm to load and unload itself, and servicing peop
le on hotels and restaurant and taking tips. It can be also a great convenience for mothers having babies and little children, Segway bounded with a basket would carry children safely following automatically mother at behind in malls. It would be a great 
entertaiment for children while trying to destabilize the Segway.



Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> One transportation expert quoted in the newspaper said this device is
> "$2000 too expensive and 40 pounds too heavy." I agree, but the price might
> fall to ~$1000.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Segway site --official
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At 09:30 AM 12/5/01 -0800, you wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> > The problem is that the competition is bicycles. They are faster, and very
> > cheap these days. I have seen some pretty good ones for $200, weighing
> > about 20 lbs I estimate. In Atlanta you can take one on the subway, and
> > park it in space reserved for luggage.
>
>The problem is some goody-two shoes goose stepping socialist is going to
>pass a law that you have to wear a helmet and knee and shoulder pads to
>ride it, and pay all kinds of licence fees and taxes just to own it.
>
>Bicyle riding use to be something every kid could enjoy. I use to ride my
>bicycle all over town.
>
>My kids didn't ride theirs because of the helmet requirement (where do you
>put the helmet when you get where you're going?) and they were not allowed
>to ride them to school.

Yes I still enjoy riding my bicycle at age 42.   In Texas adults do not 
have to ware a helmet.  If I had to dawn a helm and pads I would likely 
give up bicycling all together.

We certainly do not need more laws...

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> >The problem is some goody-two shoes goose stepping socialist is going to 
> >pass a law that you have to wear a helmet and knee and shoulder pads to 
> >ride it, and pay all kinds of licence fees and taxes just to own it.
> 
> Well, I am a consummate goody-two shoes capitalist, but I firmly support 
> laws enforcing bicycle helmets. If you do not, I have a modest proposal:
> 
> If a person has an accident, he is not wearing a helmet, and he is severely 
> injured, he will be taken to the hospital, given pain-killers, and allowed 
> to die. Let nature take its course. Neither government nor private 
> insurance money will be spent to save his life or rehabilitate him. That 
> costs hundreds of thousands and sometimes millions of dollars, and society 
> should not have to pay for people's idiotic mistakes and suicidal behavior.

Why would a "capitalist" deny people the right to the money to which they
are contractually entitled? The insurance company offers the contract,
includes bikes, and the person accepts. What's wrong with that? Sounds
like capitalism to me. Please explain how it is inconsistant with
capitalism?

The whole rational for helmet laws for bikes, motorized or not, is that
injuries create an expense to society. This is because society has decided
to use tax money for charity, which the government is not empowered to do
under the constitution. 

Under a true libertarian view, you should be able to do whatever you want,
as long as it doesn't "pick my pocket nor break my bones".

Deja vu here... didn't we have this discussion before?
 
> After my father had a stroke, I spent many days visiting him in a 
> rehabilitation hospital in Washington, DC. Many of the patients were 
> "victims" of motorcycle accidents. They were young men, fractions of young 
> men, and young men permanently reduced to vegetables. I use the word 
> 'victims' advisedly; it would more accurate to say they knowingly attempted 
> suicide on motorcycles. The ones who do not wear helmets are more often 
> uninsured as well. They become wards of society, requiring intensive care 
> for 30 to 60 years. If we, the taxpayers, are going to take on the 
> commitment to keep these idiots alive, we can darn well pass a law telling 
> them not to gratuitously risk suicide at our expense.

I agree, we should not be paying for other people's stupidity or using our
resources to thwart natural selection. 

I just don't understand why people should not be allowed to contract for
insurance.

> Much as I enjoy riding bicycles, I realize they can be dangerous, 
> especially in traffic. I have had serious accidents and close calls on 
> them. For me, it is worth the risk and the trade-off, but it would be 
> insane to deliberately increase the danger by a huge factor by not wearing 
> a helmet. Bicycles are safer and more enjoyable in Japan and Europe, where 
> the roads are set up for them, and lanes are provided. (Often, sidewalks 
> are split with a line marking separate lanes for pedestrians and bicycles.) 
> Most people do not wear helmets, but they ride slowly in safer conditions, 
> and I know of few accidents.

The only change to the laws I'd make is that bike riders have to carry a
pistol of a caliber of .45 or greater. Using this pistol in traffic would
not be a crime, it would be considered an accident and covered by the
biker's insurance. 

When the bike rider has as much killing power with immunity as car drivers
do, they will get the same hefty amount of respect as other people on the
road.  

> >Bicyle riding use to be something every kid could enjoy. I use to ride my 
> >bicycle all over town.
> 
> I still do, despite the hostility of automobile drivers. In Japan, everyone 
> does.
> 
> 
> >My kids didn't ride theirs because of the helmet requirement (where do you 
> >put the helmet when you get where you're going?)
> 
> You snap the strap shut and hang it from the saddle post. It is unlikely 
> that anyone will steal the helmet, but if they do you can chalk it up to a 
> charity contribution -- you may have saved the thieve's life. If you let 


1) I don't want to save a thief's life.
2) My kid will be cited by the police on the trip home. 
3) The theif is going to sell the helmet at a garage sale or flea market.
4) I don't want to forever be buying helmets that benefit the dregs of
humanity just because our laws are leniant on thieves.


> your children ride a bicycle without a helmet, you are guilty of gross 
> stupidity and child abuse. 

So, you're saying that every parent from 1980 on back is guilty of gross
stupidty and child abuse? I don't think so.


> Do you also let them play with gasoline soaked 
> rags and a blow torch?

LOL! I may have collected many bruises when learning how to ride a bike,
it is pretty clear that you are exaggerating the danger of bike riding a
great deal. 


> Do you encourage them to jump up and down on the 
> back seat while you drive 70 mph in a 25 mph zone? In the modern age, we 
> allow parents to abuse children. In premodern times, colonial America, and 
> even in the early 20th century, the town council would have taken your 
> children away from you and given them over to someone with a sense of 
> responsibility and respect for the law. You are lucky our society allows 
> such unbridled freedom, and no longer interferes with people's private 
> lives the way it used to.

I see no evidence that the hundreds of kids who rode their bikes with no
helmets to the elementary school I attended in the 60s were taken away by
the government and given to people who required them to wear helmets while
riding. 


> (Some conservatives think that society has become more intrusive, not less. 
> They have not read social history.)
> 
> 
> >. . . and they were not allowed to ride them to school.
> 
> I have never heard of a school that does not allow children to ride 
> bicycles.


Yes, it is just a hop skip and jump from requiring helmets to banning
riding all together. If you need a helmet to do it, the reasoning goes,
why the hell are you doing it at all?

Just wrap everyone up in cotton and stuff them away where they'll be safe. 

The government knows what's good for you.

Hell, kids in my school district get chewed out for WALKING to school. Too
damn dangerous. 

To think when I was in school we went to see the U.S. Army fire 77 mm and
4 1/2 morters, the 106 mm recoiless rifles and 55 cal machines guns as
part of a SCHOOL outing. :-) (Course, it was JROTC) We got to walk around
in the desert with a compass and map and could eat all the rattle snakes
we could catch. I kid you not.  


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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 15:06:43 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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From:

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/338/nation/After_mystery_hype_scooter_rolls_out+.shtml

Robert Metcalfe, founder of 3Com and a friend of Kamen's who is
familiar with the project, said those who are disappointed that
the scooter doesn't live up to the hype might be jumping the gun.
The scooter announced yesterday, he said in an e-mail, is not
''It.'' 

''Dean Kamen still has a few more tricks up his sleeve,'' Metcalf
wrote, ''and you ain't seen nothing yet.'' 

<end quote>

Imagine mating a heat source like Mill's with Kamen's Sterling
engine . . .

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 12:08:46 2001
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:03:48 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Antigavity Effects in a Fluorescent Tube?
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Never thought I would quote Bearden on anything, especially after his most
recent in a long line of over-hyped OU disappointments, but he does have an
interesting supra-dimensional answer to the question poised by Lajoie:

>> FS: Assuming that gravity is a magnetic effect from VERY SLOW MOVING
CHARGE in a conductor...

> SL: How could it be a magnetic effect from a slow moving charge? Gravity
does work and the direction of the force of gravity is towards the mass (for
practical purposes) and always attractive. Magnetic forces are in the
direction of the current and may be repulsive.


You will probably need to study this page to get any glimpse of what the
following quote means, and even then it may take a giant leap of faith,
er... make that a giant 5-leap ;-)
http://www.cheniere.org/books/aids/ch4.htm

"....Hence, the EM wave makes a 5-dimension G-potential wave as it travels.
The 3-dimensional gravity wave associated with this is normally very, very
much smaller in magnitude - say, by a factor of 10-42 or so.

However, if the two vectors interact so as to produce a vector zero
resultant,
then all the electromagnetic energy of the two vectors is captured.  That
is, all the "EM vector zero" resultant means is that the EM bleedoff of the
5-space gravitational potential wave has been stopped.  The 5-potential is
still oscillating, and now all its trapped 5-energy must bleed off as
3-gravity force field. Mass acts as an accumulator for this "trapped-EM
energy turned into local curvature of 5-space."

If we continually irradiate a mass with such a wave, the atomic nuclei of
the mass slowly charge up with the new energy.  Note that this potential
delta may be positive or negative, if one adjusts accordingly. *In this
fashion one may change the mass of a static object in the laboratory.*  One
may either increase the mass or decrease it, or cause it to float, or even
cause it to accelerate upwards."  end of quote

Do you suppose that Col. -oops, I guess now it's Dr. Bearden - has actually
done this experiment in his laboratory?

Regards,

Jones Beene



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 12:09:16 2001
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:44:10 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Segway site --official
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hamdi ucar wrote:

>The main problem is with Segway, I think, it is not hand free. one cant 
>possibly carry something at hand while riding it.

On the news clips I saw bags strapped to the handlebar tube. (The part that 
does not swivel.) One could install a small, light wire basket there.

I had the same problem on an electric scooter I tested -- I couldn't carry 
things.

On a bicycle, it is best to use a rear carrier. A knapsack is 
uncomfortable, and wire carriers in front with a lot of weight make it hard 
to steer.


>People can still exercise walking while traveling with Segway, and they 
>could keep their condition good. Actually I think this issue was the main 
>advantage of bicycle over Segway. :)

 From what I saw, it would not call for much walking. Compared to walking, 
a bicycle takes much less effort per kilometer of travel distance.


>The device can be programmed to adapt band slope to land slope, so user 
>feeling would have more realistic exercising experience.:)

I do not think there is any way to peddle or push it. That was the 
disadvantage of the electric scooter, too. An electric bicycle can be 
peddled and powered by the motor at the same time, which makes it go faster.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 12:09:22 2001
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Subject: RE: Segway site --official
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>I have to agree with Stephen on this one, Jed.

Perhaps I would be, too, if we lived in a brutal society that abandons 
mortally wounded people suffering from self-inflicted wounds, but modern 
first-world citizens would never stand for that. That simply is not going 
to happen in America, Europe or Japan. Therefore we must have  safety laws.


>Darwin's law has done a pretty good job evolving us
>to this point, now we're passing all kinds of other laws
>to undercut it.

I read a book about village life in France and England in the year 1500. 
During a famine, people in one family died of starvation. The whole town 
was furious with the authorities and the church for letting this happen. 
For all of recorded history, Europeans have passed laws protecting people 
against their own stupidity, and limiting personal freedom for the sake of 
the community. As I said, today we have many fewer restrictions than people 
had back in 1850 or 1500. You are even allowed to educate your kids at 
home, which would be unthinkable throughout most American and European 
history as far as I know. It seems like a dreadful idea to me.

A fellow I know is repairing a barn in Adams County, Pennsylvania, which 
was built sometime around 1880. He complained that the stonework and 
drainage were not built to code. I said "what codes? Did they have building 
codes for barns back then?" He said they darn well did, and the 
restrictions were a lot more onerous than they are today. He said in the 
18th century a guild member who violated the codes would end up in jail or 
in the stocks. Building a structure that did not follow the rules was a 
form of criminal fraud.

People have many peculiar and incorrect ideas about social history and 
conditions in the past. This book I mentioned devotes a chapter to 
demolishing the notion that people usually married young in 1500, when they 
were teenagers. In fact, the average age for women was around 21, as I 
recall. It is also a myth that premarital sex was rare in premodern 
society. In Puritan New England roughly 10 to 30% of brides were pregnant. 
Different sources quote different rates, but it is clear from birth and 
wedding records that many children were born early. People in southern 
American colonies were more strict about sex.

This is getting off topic . . . I apologize.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 12:57:43 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Segway site -- official
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This is getting way off topic, but I would like to clarify a few things. 
Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>Why would a "capitalist" deny people the right to the money to which they 
>are contractually entitled? The insurance company offers the contract, 
>includes bikes, and the person accepts.

The insurance companies are the ones pushing local governments to establish 
helmet laws. They do not want to pay for stupid, self inflicted wounds. 
They cannot deny coverage for this, or write into a policy, "you will be 
left to die," because the public would not stand for it.


>Under a true libertarian view, you should be able to do whatever you want, 
>as long as it doesn't "pick my pocket nor break my bones".

There is a world of difference between libertarians and capitalists! 
Capitalists like me are in favor of strong, activist government. High 
technology and capitalism would not survive without regulations and 
vigorous anti-trust enforcement. The public, for example, would never ride 
on airplanes if it knew the machines might not be inspected and held to 
strict, standard regulations. High tech society requires ever-increasing 
levels of attention, protection, government and corporate data bases on 
credit cards, immigrants, criminals, gun licenses and much else. This is 
the price we must pay, since we have tunnels in New York City and jumbo 
jets landing at JFK carrying thousands of people from all points in world, 
include war zones.

As I have often pointed out, most big-ticket high technology was invented 
or subsidized by the government, from railroads, to airports, highways, 
computers and the Internet. Cars are as much a product of government 
highway programs as Ford and GE.


>I just don't understand why people should not be allowed to contract for 
>insurance.

You mean, with the restriction that the people will be left to die? The 
insurance companies would love to offer that, but they cannot, for the same 
reason you cannot charge people to view an Internet broadcast of yourself 
committing suicide or cutting off your own leg -- as someone tried to do 
recently. The public will not stand for such depravity. Since the insurance 
companies cannot pay for depraved indifference to life, they push society 
to reduce instances in which it is likely to occur.


> > your children ride a bicycle without a helmet, you are guilty of gross
> > stupidity and child abuse.
>
>So, you're saying that every parent from 1980 on back is guilty of gross
>stupidty and child abuse? I don't think so.

Of course not. Helmet technology did not exist in 1980. The materials were 
not invented. That is like saying parents who did not use seat belts and 
child seats in 1930 were guilty of child abuse. There were no seat belts, 
except in automobiles belonging to smart engineers.


> > Do you also let them play with gasoline soaked
> > rags and a blow torch?
>
>LOL! I may have collected many bruises when learning how to ride a bike, 
>it is pretty clear that you are exaggerating the danger of bike riding a 
>great deal.

I nearly killed myself twice, once in an accident with a police car. (My 
fault. Fortunately, police are well trained drivers, and he avoided 
seriously harm.) It is pretty clear to me you have not spent a lot of time 
in the rehab ward of a major hospital, and you have not been on a bicycle 
as often as I have. Bicycles are one of the most dangerous sports in the 
U.S. Not as bad as hang gliding . . . As I say, they are much safer in 
other countries, and it would be easy to make them safer in the U.S. See:

http://www.ci.cambridge.ma.us/~CDD/envirotrans/bicycle/lanes/bikelane-safety.html


>I see no evidence that the hundreds of kids who rode their bikes with no
>helmets to the elementary school I attended in the 60s were taken away by 
>the government and given to people who required them to wear helmets while 
>riding.

That's an absurd distortion of what I wrote. Obviously there were no 
effective helmets back then, and no laws about them. Furthermore, I was 
referring to the 17th century, not 1960. Children were taken away because 
their parents were not married, or they did not teach the children how to 
read, send the children to school or church, or because the family was poor 
-- less often because parents allowed unsafe behavior. By 1960 parents were 
allowed much greater leeway in deciding how to raise children.


>The government knows what's good for you.

Much less than it used to, contrary to the mythology. Whether that will 
survive the post-9/11 world remains to be seen.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 13:05:27 2001
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 16:04:21 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Segway site --official
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I wrote:

>Keith Nagel wrote:
>
>>I have to agree with Stephen on this one, Jed.
>
>Perhaps I would be, too, if we lived in a brutal society that abandons 
>mortally wounded people suffering from self-inflicted wounds . . .

By the way, Keith and I were both kidding. I enjoy the "Darwin Awards" and 
Charles Addams cartoons, but I am not actually in favor of leaving dead 
bicyclists propped up on sticks as a safety warning. It works for crows, 
though.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 14:16:55 2001
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:13:43 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Segway & electric bicycles need fuel cells
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I have been riding the electric bicycle for a while now. One thing I have 
concluded is that a fuel cell would be more practical than a battery. The 
LaFree bicycle is equipped with a lead acid battery, with a range of 18 to 
20 miles. When it reaches 12 miles, the motor is noticeably weaker, and 
during the last 3 miles the rider has to supply most of the horsepower. 
Electrochemical battery output is not consistent. A fuel cell will output 
as much power when it is nearly empty as it does when it is full. Fuel 
cells also have much better energy density, so the range would be extended 
and the motor could be more powerful. The LaFree is underpowered with a 400 
watt motor. I don't mind pedaling hard to make up the difference, but other 
riders would.

Perhaps Kamen's hidden next improvement will be a fuel cell.

See:

http://www.mhtx.com/novars/

For battery discharge performance see:

http://data.energizer.com/datasheets/frames.htm

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 14:42:58 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: You really should try on a modern helmet
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I apologize again for being off topic, but bicycle safety is a subject dear 
to my hear. Charles Ford wrote:

>Yes I still enjoy riding my bicycle at age 42.   In Texas adults do not 
>have to ware a helmet.  If I had to dawn a helm and pads I would likely 
>give up bicycling all together.

Charles: Please think twice about this. Seriously. You should go to a 
bicycle store and try on one of the modern helmets. They have made great 
strides in the technology, even in the last three years. Helmets are now so 
light and well ventilated, you forget you are wearing one. I mean that 
literally: I have forgotten to take mine off and walked into banks and 
stores wearing it. It is no more restrictive or annoying than a baseball 
cap with the visor forward. On a hot, sunny day, the helmet acts as a 
regular hat, and actually keeps you cooler. It lets in the air, but not the 
light.

I have never heard of anyone wearing pads on a bicycle. I could have used 
one on my wrist last winter, but a better solution would be to refrain from 
looking backwards while riding at night on icy, sandy roads without street 
lights. See? People need helmets because they do things like that -- even 
nerds obsessed with safety and efficiency.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 14:44:04 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Enron/Vortex Irony Lesson #1
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:42:56 -0500
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Hi All.

They say Irony is dead, and judging from the posts
here I wonder if thats not true. Let me try to breath
some life into that once-loved notion...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/12/05
/BU215658.DTL&type=business

Officials with the California agency that has been
buying electricity in place of the state's financially
ruined utilities revealed yesterday that Enron called
on Friday hoping to buy energy to supply its
customers this week.

State officials said no; they weren't sure if Enron
would pay up. The Texas company filed for
bankruptcy protection Sunday after a stunning
decline in finances.

"We don't want to dance on anyone's grave," said
Oscar Hidalgo, spokesman for the California
Department of Water Resources. "But this is sort of
ironic."

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Subject: RE: Segway site --official
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On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Keith Nagel wrote:
> 
> >I have to agree with Stephen on this one, Jed.
> 
> Perhaps I would be, too, if we lived in a brutal society that abandons 
> mortally wounded people suffering from self-inflicted wounds, but modern 
> first-world citizens would never stand for that. That simply is not going 
> to happen in America, Europe or Japan. Therefore we must have  safety laws.

All laws, even safety laws, are enforced by the use of force. 

Please recall the incident in Italy where police shot a man to death over
his not wearing a helmet while riding his motorcycle and trying to avoid
the law. 

As for abandoning the mortally wounded: If you want to give charity, give
charity. Don't be generous with other people's money and vote to use that
same gun of government to make them give to your favorite charities. 
 
Redistribution of wealth is not one of the things our government is
empowered to do. 

> >Darwin's law has done a pretty good job evolving us
> >to this point, now we're passing all kinds of other laws
> >to undercut it.
> 
> I read a book about village life in France and England in the year 1500. 
> During a famine, people in one family died of starvation. The whole town 
> was furious with the authorities and the church for letting this happen. > For all of recorded history, Europeans have passed laws protecting people 
> against their own stupidity, and limiting personal freedom for the sake of 
> the community. As I said, today we have many fewer restrictions than people 
> had back in 1850 or 1500. You are even allowed to educate your kids at 
> home, which would be unthinkable throughout most American and European 
> history as far as I know. It seems like a dreadful idea to me.

Actually, the public school is a recent creation.

As far as using feudal Europe as a role model and standard of right and
wrong by which modern society is to be judged, it is easy to make the case
that this is wrong. The villiage also was furious with their feudal lords
for not killing Jews, witches, scientist, and so on. 

> A fellow I know is repairing a barn in Adams County, Pennsylvania, which 
> was built sometime around 1880. He complained that the stonework and 
> drainage were not built to code. I said "what codes? Did they have building 
> codes for barns back then?" He said they darn well did, and the 
> restrictions were a lot more onerous than they are today. He said in the 
> 18th century a guild member who violated the codes would end up in jail or 
> in the stocks. Building a structure that did not follow the rules was a 
> form of criminal fraud.


My library only goes back 100 years. 

> People have many peculiar and incorrect ideas about social history and 
> conditions in the past. This book I mentioned devotes a chapter to 
> demolishing the notion that people usually married young in 1500, when they 
> were teenagers. In fact, the average age for women was around 21, as I 
> recall. It is also a myth that premarital sex was rare in premodern 
> society. In Puritan New England roughly 10 to 30% of brides were pregnant. 
> Different sources quote different rates, but it is clear from birth and 
> wedding records that many children were born early. People in southern 
> American colonies were more strict about sex.
> 
> This is getting off topic . . . I apologize.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 15:12:24 2001
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Subject: RE: You really should try on a modern helmet
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:11:48 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 05, 2001 2:42 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
>See? People need helmets because they do things
>like that -- even nerds obsessed with safety and efficiency.
>
> - Jed

diagnostic possibility to consider:
Nerds obsessed with safety and efficiency could get that way from early 
experiences of being a bit clumsy/inattentive/whatever  and prone to 
accident, thus have perceived need for the protections. Not everyone has as 
great a need of being protected against themselves as others may.

Dan Q.

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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
[snip]
> 
> Perhaps Kamen's hidden next improvement will be a fuel cell.
> 

If not, there is another solution. :)

Did you ever noticed the kind of similarity between Segway and old Roman warriors two wheels carriers? 

Now, as the energy source is the limiting factor in Segway, a strong dog in front, may increase the functionality of Segway on places where dogs are permitted. Even, weight of the dog would suffice to stabilize the carrier, so no sophisticated gyroscopic 
system is needed, just like Roman carriers.

Segway, integrated with a dog would also increase the security against bad guys on the road, and also prevent it would be stolen while it is parked. More than that, blind people can also drive Segway, if a the dog is educated for helping blinds.

hamdix

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> <snip>
> Helmet technology did not exist in 1980. The materials were not invented.

Just for the record:  I bought a helmet in 1973, and have worn one ever since.  In
fact, I would feel naked (read:  vulnerable) riding without it.  I've never been in
an accident, but have had enough close calls to see the value.  I seem to recall
reading statistics to the effect that most bicycle-related head injuries are due to
hitting the pavement- with or without the assistance of motorists- and helmets
provide fairly good protection for that.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 15:37:33 2001
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On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> This is getting way off topic, but I would like to clarify a few things. 
> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> >Why would a "capitalist" deny people the right to the money to which they 
> >are contractually entitled? The insurance company offers the contract, 
> >includes bikes, and the person accepts.
> 
> The insurance companies are the ones pushing local governments to establish 
> helmet laws. They do not want to pay for stupid, self inflicted wounds. 


Why should government protect insurance companies from stupid, self
inflicted wounds due to their bad management? If the insurance company
sells policies at a loss, that's their own folly. You can't sell policies
based on one case and then press for legislation to change the
demographics to make the contracts more profitable.

If they want, they are FREE to contract with exclusions for smoking or
drinking, and MANY DO. They can also include exclusions for other
behaviors, like bike riding. 

This is not justification for limiting our freedoms and liberty. 


> They cannot deny coverage for this, or write into a policy, "you will be 
> left to die," because the public would not stand for it.

If people don't like it, they can give charity. No need to redistribute
wealth.  
 
> >Under a true libertarian view, you should be able to do whatever you want, 
> >as long as it doesn't "pick my pocket nor break my bones".
> 
> There is a world of difference between libertarians and capitalists! 

Libertarians are capitalist, but not all capitalist are libertarians.

> Capitalists like me are in favor of strong, activist government. High 
> technology and capitalism would not survive without regulations and 
> vigorous anti-trust enforcement. The public, for example, would never ride 
> on airplanes if it knew the machines might not be inspected and held to 
> strict, standard regulations. High tech society requires ever-increasing 
> levels of attention, protection, government and corporate data bases on 
> credit cards, immigrants, criminals, gun licenses and much else. This is 
> the price we must pay, since we have tunnels in New York City and jumbo 
> jets landing at JFK carrying thousands of people from all points in world, 
> include war zones.


Yes, corporations that make contracts have to live up to them. This was
never in question. If you are going to sell airline tickets, the service
has to meet the contractual intent. In this case, the government ensures
that the contractual intent is met. No problem there. Contracts are the
heart of capitalism, and government assurance that contracts are
enforceable is one of the protective services that government was created
for. 

This does NOT mean that the government can infringe upon my rights. 

> As I have often pointed out, most big-ticket high technology was invented 
> or subsidized by the government, from railroads, to airports, highways, 
> computers and the Internet. Cars are as much a product of government 
> highway programs as Ford and GE.
> 
> 
> >I just don't understand why people should not be allowed to contract for 
> >insurance.
> 
> You mean, with the restriction that the people will be left to die?


Where do you see that in the insurance policy?? All insurance does is pay
money; it doesn't provide medical care. 

If the insurance company doesn't pay up, the government should let the
injured party sue the hell out of them for breach of contract.

What your issue seems to be is that you would let people NOT contract for
insurance who can't pay for medical out of pocket be entitled, as a right,
to the services of a physician. That's slave labor. Or, perhaps you
believe that the government has to pay for those services because a person
decided to engage in risky behavior and had no intention of being
responsible for that risk. 

> The 
> insurance companies would love to offer that, but they cannot, for the same 
> reason you cannot charge people to view an Internet broadcast of yourself 
> committing suicide or cutting off your own leg -- as someone tried to do 
> recently. The public will not stand for such depravity.


Yes, it is a violation of the 1st amendment and is called "tyranny of the
majority". 

The existance of evil does not justify it. 

> Since the insurance 
> companies cannot pay for depraved indifference to life, they push society 
> to reduce instances in which it is likely to occur.

They can push for whatever they like. Government has not been given the
power to do these things, and this is an abuse of government power. 

As I stated, they can put whatever clauses in their contracts they like.  
 

Any risk can be insured for a price. 

> > > your children ride a bicycle without a helmet, you are guilty of gross
> > > stupidity and child abuse.
> >
> >So, you're saying that every parent from 1980 on back is guilty of gross
> >stupidty and child abuse? I don't think so.
> 
> Of course not. Helmet technology did not exist in 1980.


Sure it did. Motorcycle helmets were quite common, as were climbing
helmets (I had one of these...) and so on. 

> The materials were 
> not invented. That is like saying parents who did not use seat belts and 
> child seats in 1930 were guilty of child abuse. There were no seat belts, 
> except in automobiles belonging to smart engineers.

Nor did they use child seats. That doesn't make them abusive.
 

> > > Do you also let them play with gasoline soaked
> > > rags and a blow torch?
> >
> >LOL! I may have collected many bruises when learning how to ride a bike, 
> >it is pretty clear that you are exaggerating the danger of bike riding a 
> >great deal.
> 
> I nearly killed myself twice, once in an accident with a police car. (My 
> fault. Fortunately, police are well trained drivers, and he avoided 
> seriously harm.) It is pretty clear to me you have not spent a lot of time 
> in the rehab ward of a major hospital, and you have not been on a bicycle 
> as often as I have.


It appears I was a safe and responsible bicycle rider in comparison, but
that is neither here nor there. 

> Bicycles are one of the most dangerous sports in the 
> U.S. Not as bad as hang gliding . . . As I say, they are much safer in 
> other countries, and it would be easy to make them safer in the U.S. See:
> 
> http://www.ci.cambridge.ma.us/~CDD/envirotrans/bicycle/lanes/bikelane-safety.html
> 
> 
> >I see no evidence that the hundreds of kids who rode their bikes with no
> >helmets to the elementary school I attended in the 60s were taken away by 
> >the government and given to people who required them to wear helmets while 
> >riding.
> 
> That's an absurd distortion of what I wrote.


No. Sorry. That gasoline line was over the top. :-)

> Obviously there were no 
> effective helmets back then, and no laws about them. Furthermore, I was 
> referring to the 17th century, not 1960. Children were taken away because 
> their parents were not married, or they did not teach the children how to 
> read, send the children to school or church, or because the family was poor 
> -- less often because parents allowed unsafe behavior. By 1960 parents were 
> allowed much greater leeway in deciding how to raise children.

Oh, yes. The history of my tribe is full of stories of the nice white
people talking heathen Indian kids away from parents and sending them off
to "Indian school" to be raised good Christians. That doesn't make it
right or a role model for how we should conduct ourselves now. 

> >The government knows what's good for you.
> 
> Much less than it used to, contrary to the mythology. Whether that will 
> survive the post-9/11 world remains to be seen.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 15:43:14 2001
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On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Bob Fickle wrote:

> 
> 
> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > <snip>
> > Helmet technology did not exist in 1980. The materials were not invented.
> 
> Just for the record:  I bought a helmet in 1973, and have worn one ever since.  In
> fact, I would feel naked (read:  vulnerable) riding without it.  I've never been in
> an accident, but have had enough close calls to see the value.  I seem to recall
> reading statistics to the effect that most bicycle-related head injuries are due to
> hitting the pavement- with or without the assistance of motorists- and helmets
> provide fairly good protection for that.

Great. Now, with kids, you have to buy them a new helmet after every
growth spurt. They were constantly finding they have outgrown their last
helmet. It's as bad as the shoe problem. 

Now, since my kids are too smart to ride at night, much less on sandy and
icy streets...

Then there was the license issue. We have to give money to the government
so that if the bike is stolen, the cops can identify it and give it back.

Do they ever find stolen bikes? Nope.

What happens if you don't buy the license? They fine you more than the
bike is worth - they STEAL from you themselves!

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and government ALWAYS has
good intentions. 

And what about that guy shot dead for violating a safety law?!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 16:21:10 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: You really should try on a modern helmet
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Dan Quickert wrote:

>diagnostic possibility to consider:
>Nerds obsessed with safety and efficiency could get that way from early
>experiences of being a bit clumsy/inattentive/whatever  . . .

The most recent experience was this year. It works out to roughly one 
serious accident or mistake per five or ten years of constant riding, which 
is probably about as good as most people's driving record. When you have a 
mild fender-bender accident in a car, you are completely safe. On a bicycle 
you are at serious risk to life and limb.


>and prone to  accident, thus have perceived need for the protections. Not 
>everyone has as great a need of being protected against themselves as 
>others may.

Seriously, on a bicycle you always need protection, not only from yourself, 
but from automobile drivers. In the U.S. they seldom encounter bicycles and 
they are not good at driving around them.

- Jed

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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>Then there was the license issue. We have to give money to the government 
>so that if the bike is stolen, the cops can identify it and give it back.
>
>Do they ever find stolen bikes? Nope.

They did many times, including my brother's and mine (taken at the same 
time). I used to work in a bicycle store and I saw it happen. As I said 
before, criminals are stupid people. They will bring a hot bicycle in to be 
repaired at a shop, and they will fill in a form to buy a gun even when 
they are wanted by the law.


>The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and government ALWAYS has 
>good intentions.

And without government we would all of us, everywhere in the world, live in 
the chaos, violence and poverty of Afghanistan. That is how things used to 
be, and how they would be again without a strong central government. Here 
in Georgia lawless thugs and murderers took over the state for a century, 
from 1863 to 1965. They murdered 400,000 loyal Americans, and they 
instituted a reign of terror and unspeakable tyranny. After 1865 they 
periodically burned entire town, bombed, raped, terrorized half the 
population, and murdered thousands more innocent men, women and children, 
and not one of them was brought to justice. We know what real tyranny is. 
People I know personally suffered from it. We will NEVER forget, and never 
let it happen again. When you abandon democracy and the strong rule of law, 
the worst criminals take over.

- Jed

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Helmets . . .
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Bob Fickle wrote:

>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> > Helmet technology did not exist in 1980. The materials were not invented.
>
>Just for the record:  I bought a helmet in 1973, and have worn one ever 
>since.  In fact, I would feel naked (read:  vulnerable) riding without it.

At that time I wore a common type of bicycle racer's helmet, which was 
practically useless. I guess Bob is saying there were better ones, but they 
were not well known to the public, or to me. They were a little like 
microcomputers in 1979 -- known only to aficionados. It is interesting how 
long technology sometimes takes to surface and catch people's attention.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 18:50:03 2001
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 18:43:02 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: CF bomb research
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The subject of this post could also read "only in LA"

http://members.aol.com/spaceventures/fusionman.html

I'm kinda surprised that this guy isn't a regular contributor to Vortex...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 19:31:31 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: CF bomb research
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 22:35:35 -0500
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Jesus!

I'm glad the guy isn't my neighbor (grin).

Presumably his radiation detecting rabbit
survived the ordeal? 

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:43 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: CF bomb research


The subject of this post could also read "only in LA"

http://members.aol.com/spaceventures/fusionman.html

I'm kinda surprised that this guy isn't a regular contributor to Vortex...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 19:51:55 2001
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 21:50:25 +0000
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Segway site --official
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At 10:35 PM 12/4/01 -0800, Gene wrote:

>Ginger site:
>
>Official Segway [Ginger/It] Site at: http://www.segway.com/consumer/


Where do you buy one?  :-)

Hay I was not that impressed but upon arriving at work monday morning that 
damn thing was the talk of the lunch room.  Everyone was giggling like 
school childeren.  "Can't wait to get one"

Dean may have now invented the worlds most successful hype...

There is an interesting thought for me...  Trinity Express is a new rail 
service between Fort Worth and Dallas.  It will soon enough extend out to 
the west end (only a mile or so from my home.)  One of there regular stops 
is at the Bell Helicopter plant only about a mile form my lab in Uless.  I 
think it would be easy enough to share a seat with the thing... or if you 
must hang from a strap then put your other hand on your Segway.

That is providing I don't have to ware a helmet and kneepads.  :-)





_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  5 19:59:34 2001
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: You really should try on a modern helmet
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At 07:20 PM 12/5/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Seriously, on a bicycle you always need protection, not only from 
>yourself, but from automobile drivers. In the U.S. they seldom encounter 
>bicycles and they are not good at driving around them.
>
>- Jed

And will periodically frighten out a grey hair or two...

Seriously  If I commute on the bike or ride it in traffic I ware my 
helmet.  Yes I do own one and use it if I ride on the streets.  The fact 
that it is not required and that I typically ride in Trinity park (on the 
bike trails) offers me the little extra (helmet-less) enjoyment that I prefer.




_________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 04:16:47 2001
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Subject: Georgia, Huh? Re: Segway site -- official
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Here in Georgia lawless thugs and murderers took over the state for a
> century,
> from 1863 to 1965. They murdered 400,000 loyal Americans, and they
> instituted a reign of terror and unspeakable tyranny. After 1865 they
> periodically burned entire town, bombed, raped, terrorized half the
> population, and murdered thousands more innocent men, women and children,
> and not one of them was brought to justice. We know what real tyranny is.
> People I know personally suffered from it. We will NEVER forget, and never
> let it happen again. When you abandon democracy and the strong rule of law,
> the worst criminals take over.
>
> - Jed

I think I need a history lesson, I have no idea what your talking about!?
The Civil war certianly didn't run for over a century, I don't understand how
anything like what your saying could have happened after the civil war without
me knowing ANYTHING about it?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 07:05:44 2001
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Having looked at some of the snickering about Segway on V., I think a couple
of points are being missed, which are important.

Bicycles, though common, are not safe vehicles. They can dump you on your
head and so can be lethal at nominal speeds. Yet, I have seen bicycle
messengers snaking their way through Manhattan traffic. Wearing helmets, of
course. I'm a long term commuting motorcycle rider (100,000+ miles) so I
don't find helmets offensive.

On sidewalks, bicycles are not safe, for they are unstable at a walking pace
and have an extended footprint. They have a large turning radius.

In-line skates have a small footprint, can move slowly, but requires skill
and strong legs. Same for skateboards.

Segway's footprint is hardly bigger than a standing person. It is stable at
zero speed and at a crawl. Its turning radius is very small; it can rotate
about its own vertical central axis.

Control is intuitive. If you are about to run into something, the reflexive
flinch backward will put it into reverse, maneuvering to always stay under
the passenger. If you run it into a curb, it could dump you badly; with a
bicycle, you do have some ability to brace yourself. It is wise to look
where you are going. One can also trip on the edge of a displaced pavement
slab in the dark and fall flat on your face as I did a while back;
fortunately my face fell on grass covered earth and I was essentially
unhurt.

Bicycles are probably the most energy efficient mode of transport in terms
of miles per pound of edible fuel. They provide a good impedance match to
muscles and thus good energy transfer. Humans need about 100 watts in
couch-potato mode. Segway might be close, including the generation of the
electricity, charging of batteries, etc. Certainly better than idling
automobiles.

Details of the design are well thought out. Kamen is no fool. At 65 lb, it
is heavy for most people to lift. A good part of that weight is the battery
pack. With the possible emergence of more potent batteries, that weight can
come down. I expect that this will find quick niche markets and growing
acceptance.

Mike Carrell


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	Dear Jed,


	What is this about?  Please.   Who did what for 100 years??



On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, John Berry wrote:

> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > Here in Georgia lawless thugs and murderers took over the state for a
> > century,
> > from 1863 to 1965. They murdered 400,000 loyal Americans, and they
> > instituted a reign of terror and unspeakable tyranny. After 1865 they
> > periodically burned entire town, bombed, raped, terrorized half the
> > population, and murdered thousands more innocent men, women and children,
> > and not one of them was brought to justice. We know what real tyranny is.
> > People I know personally suffered from it. We will NEVER forget, and never
> > let it happen again. When you abandon democracy and the strong rule of law,
> > the worst criminals take over.
> >
> > - Jed
> 
> I think I need a history lesson, I have no idea what your talking about!?
> The Civil war certianly didn't run for over a century, I don't understand how
> anything like what your saying could have happened after the civil war without
> me knowing ANYTHING about it?
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 07:53:20 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Georgia, Huh? Re: Segway site -- official
In-Reply-To: <3C0F5D69.F37E11BA ihug.co.nz>
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John Berry wrote:

>I think I need a history lesson, I have no idea what your talking about!?

You are the one who needs a history lesson! Start with Atlanta, September 
1906, or Elaine, Ark., September 1919:

http://www.savannahnow.com/diversions/CURRENT/BOOKbookneg.shtml

http://detnews.com/2000/nation/0002/11/02110187.htm


>The Civil war certianly didn't run for over a century . . .

It ran until 1965, when the voting rights act passed. It was a low level 
war, like the war in Northern Ireland or the Israeli - Palestinian 
conflict. Only occasionally did it break out in large scale pogroms.


>I don't understand how anything like what your saying could have happened 
>after the civil war without me knowing ANYTHING about it?

I am appalled that you know nothing about it. It was the defining event for 
one-tenth of our population. It triggered the largest migration of people 
in human history, from the south to the north.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 07:55:15 2001
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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:20:40 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Segway snickering
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Mike Carrell is right on all points, as usual. A few comments:

>Bicycles, though common, are not safe vehicles. They can dump you on your 
>head and so can be lethal at nominal speeds.

That is my point. However, it is worth noting that they are used in a safe 
manner by 60-year-old women in Japan, who rarely go more than 10 mph and 
walk up hills. Millions of people use them to commute in Asia, with few 
casualties, but the mode of operation, the roads, the speed and much else 
is different. Above 10 mph they are dangerous.


>On sidewalks, bicycles are not safe, for they are unstable at a walking 
>pace and have an extended footprint. They have a large turning radius.

I think the Segway will be too fast for most sidewalks in U.S. cities. It 
would work perfectly in the divided sidewalks common in Asia, with bicycle 
lanes. This is partly a matter of training and expectation. People walking 
in Japan on the sidewalk expect to have bicycles passing by from behind.


>Details of the design are well thought out. Kamen is no fool. At 65 lb, it 
>is heavy for most people to lift. A good part of that weight is the 
>battery pack. With the possible emergence of more potent batteries, that 
>weight can come down.

Fuel cells are promising in this regard. However, much of the weight must 
be in the counterbalancing gizmo that maintains stability.


>I expect that this will find quick niche markets and growing acceptance.

It deserves a niche market. I hope the marketing people are talented, and 
lucky.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 07:55:21 2001
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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:26:14 -0500
To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Georgia, Huh?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1011206100815.1978C-100000 college.antioch-c
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John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Jed,
>
>         What is this about?  Please.   Who did what for 100 years??

White people terrorized and disenfranchised the black population, and drove 
much of it out of the state. Read history, for goodness sake. I thought 
this was common knowledge.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 08:10:21 2001
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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 11:09:26 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Helmets, human head growth
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:


>Great. Now, with kids, you have to buy them a new helmet after every
>growth spurt. They were constantly finding they have outgrown their last 
>helmet. It's as bad as the shoe problem.

The human head does not grow as quickly or as much as the feet and other 
body parts. The ratio of head height / body height is 1/4 at birth, and 1/8 
in adults.

Children need new helmets roughly every 5 years. The manufacturers 
recommend you buy one that often anyway. I presume temperature changes and 
aging weaken the material. With two or more children less than 4 years 
apart, I think it is safe to hand down helmets to younger siblings, 
although the manufacturers probably would discourage it.

If a helmet absorbs a blow in an accident, it should be replaced, even if 
it shows no apparent damage. Some of the manufacturers offer free 
replacements. You have to send in the used one.

- Jed

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Fuel cells are promising in this regard. However, much of the weight must
> be in the counterbalancing gizmo that maintains stability.

I think he is using miniature ring laser gyros and electronic
stepping motors.  Very precise and light weight.

Terry

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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: Segway snickering
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:37:30 -0800
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> Mike Carrell is right on all points, as usual. A few comments:

Thanks, Jed. I try to be useful.
>
> >Bicycles, though common, are not safe vehicles. They can dump you on your
> >head and so can be lethal at nominal speeds.
>
> That is my point. However, it is worth noting that they are used in a safe
> manner by 60-year-old women in Japan, who rarely go more than 10 mph and
> walk up hills. Millions of people use them to commute in Asia, with few
> casualties, but the mode of operation, the roads, the speed and much else
> is different. Above 10 mph they are dangerous.
>
>
> >On sidewalks, bicycles are not safe, for they are unstable at a walking
> >pace and have an extended footprint. They have a large turning radius.
>
> I think the Segway will be too fast for most sidewalks in U.S. cities. It
> would work perfectly in the divided sidewalks common in Asia, with bicycle
> lanes. This is partly a matter of training and expectation. People walking
> in Japan on the sidewalk expect to have bicycles passing by from behind.
>
>
> >Details of the design are well thought out. Kaman is no fool. At 65 lb,
it
> >is heavy for most people to lift. A good part of that weight is the
> >battery pack. With the possible emergence of more potent batteries, that
> >weight can come down.
>
> Fuel cells are promising in this regard. However, much of the weight must
> be in the counterbalancing gizmo that maintains stability.

No counterbalancing is necessary. the website says there are five gyros,
each capable of sensing in two planes, so there is considerable redundancy.
As for the nature of the gyros, I suspect that they are not laser ring gyros
nor gimbaled spinning wheels or spheres. Consider the humble housefly,
which uses gyros. These are in the form of short stalks behind the head
which vibrate while in flight. Changes in direction and acceleration act on
the oscillating masses and the forces are sensed by nerves. Silicon
machining could likely produce such gyros on a very miniature scale and
Kaman is clever enough to think of it. Processing the signals from the
vibrating masses is within range of microelectronics.

As for the motors, stepping motors are definitely not wanted, for they have
a distinct cogging motion which will make the necessary servoactions very
much more complicated. These are very likely hystersis-synchronous induction
motors. These have a rotor made of a cobalt alloy which has the
characteristics of a permanent magnet. If the field configuration is
constant, the rotors lock. If the field rotates, the rotor will follow,
developing high torque at low speeds. At high speeds it can function as an
induction motor.

Segway is a very, very sophisticated device, designed by a very smart man
with an impressive track record.

Mike Carrell





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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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	Dear Vo.,

	A little help on an efficiency calculation....please:


	Input Thermal		150 F
	Output Thermal Sink	 80 F 


	Surface area 1 inch by 2 inches


	Output continuous DC

	2.5 Volts
	20 milli Amperes


		Thanks........


	will post final testing......

	above is preliminary...... 3 day cw run

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Subject: Re: Segway site -- official
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On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> periodically burned entire town, bombed, raped, terrorized half the 
> population, and murdered thousands more innocent men, women and children, 
> and not one of them was brought to justice. We know what real tyranny is. 

We're talking about making kids wear helmets here, Jed. This is a bit over
the top. 

And as shown in Italy, when the government says you're going to do
something, they'll kill you if you don't.



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Mike Carrell wrote:
> Silicon
> machining could likely produce such gyros on a very miniature scale and
> Kaman is clever enough to think of it. Processing the signals from the
> vibrating masses is within range of microelectronics.

You could be right.  However, I suspect Kamen would patent such
an invention.  But, why reinvent the wheel :) when the micro
laser ring gyros are readily available.  We have "wasted" about
100,000 of them recently in Ashcanistan.  :)
 
> As for the motors, stepping motors are definitely not wanted, for they have
> a distinct cogging motion which will make the necessary servoactions very
> much more complicated. 

I disagree here also.  I don't think you can maintain the fine
control required with induction motors.  Varible reluctance
stepping motors have no cogging effect.  Take a look at:

http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/step/

The type of control required in Segway would almost dictate
stepping motors.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 10:24:29 2001
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Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> Mike Carrell wrote:
> > Silicon
> > machining could likely produce such gyros on a very miniature scale and
> > Kaman is clever enough to think of it. Processing the signals from the
> > vibrating masses is within range of microelectronics.
> 
> You could be right.  

Looks like you were right.  This is likely the product (or one
similar):

http://www.siliconsensing.com/pages/english/products/page5.htm

Terry  :-Þ

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Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> Mike Carrell wrote:

> > As for the motors, stepping motors are definitely not wanted, for they have
> > a distinct cogging motion which will make the necessary servoactions very
> > much more complicated.
> 
> I disagree here also.  

And here's the Segway motor:

http://www.pacsci.com/theproduct/release.html

Terry

(research first, then argue)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 12:12:54 2001
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Wonder if you could take out battery
and run with plastic rod running to 
overhead grid....like bumper cars
at circus.....

Battery must be most of weight....how
much does motorcycle battery weight..??

steve

Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> Terry Blanton wrote:
> >
> > Mike Carrell wrote:
> > > Silicon
> > > machining could likely produce such gyros on a very miniature scale and
> > > Kaman is clever enough to think of it. Processing the signals from the
> > > vibrating masses is within range of microelectronics.
> >
> > You could be right.
> 
> Looks like you were right.  This is likely the product (or one
> similar):
> 
> http://www.siliconsensing.com/pages/english/products/page5.htm
> 
> Terry  :-Þ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 12:28:50 2001
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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 12:23:44 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Looking ahead (or is that "feed your head"), a larger one of these would be
nice:

http://evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=270

The company says that their Russian engineers powered it off of vodka.

That would give Kamen a big head start in terms of infrastructure - as a
"filling station" could be as close as you neighborhood bar...I can just
hear it now " hey, Fred give me one for the raod and one for Ginger over
there..."

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: DEC TEC Direct Energy Conversion Thermal to Electrical Convertor
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 07:39:39 +1100
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In reply to  John Schnurer's message of Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:53:25 -0500:

>
>
>	Dear Vo.,
>
>	A little help on an efficiency calculation....please:
>
>
>	Input Thermal		150 F
>	Output Thermal Sink	 80 F 
>
>
>	Surface area 1 inch by 2 inches
>
>
>	Output continuous DC
>
>	2.5 Volts
>	20 milli Amperes
Hi John,

I don't think you can calculate the efficiency without knowing the
thermal energy flow, which in turn requires knowledge of the thermal
conductivity of the device.

IOW you also need to measure that actual amount of heat flowing through
the device (if it's a good thermal conductor that will be a lot, but if
it's a good thermal insulator it won't).

BTW maximum Carnot efficiency is about 11.5% unless I goofed.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Segway snickering
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Sno wrote:

>Battery must be most of weight....how much does motorcycle battery weight..??

Based on my electric bicycle, I estimate the battery weighs between 15 and 
20 lbs (7 to 9 kg). The bicycle weighs about as much as the Segway, and it 
has a slightly longer range, but power is supplemented by the rider. The 
lead acid battery weighs 20 lbs. The manufacturer told me they are looking 
at an advanced battery NiH battery which is lighter with a ~30 mile range.

The Segway is surprisingly heavy, at 60 lbs (27 kg). Mike says it has no 
counterbalance. I do not understand how it can stay upright without 
shifting around a counterbalance weight in the pedestal, or with a large 
gyro, or something like that. A bicycle stays upright because the wheels 
are gyroscopes. The physics of steering and redirecting a bicycle are 
complicated, and over my head. To go left, you have to start by steering 
right. I believe this was first explicated in detail by -- wouldn't you 
know it -- the Wright brothers, bicycle builders and physicists entraordinaire.

Bicycle and typewriter manufacturing sprang from the precision arms 
industries developed during the Civil War. When the war ended, the gun 
manufacturer Remington looked around for a way to use its precision machine 
tools and expertise, and it developed the first viable typewriter in 1874. 
Bicycles and typewriters led, in turn, to the rise of mass production with 
unprecedented precision, and products such as automobiles and Hollerith 
tabulating machines.

- Jed

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On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Robin van Spaandonk wrote> 
> 
> >Robin
> >	To me, Binding energy of a compound or crystal is the difference
> >between the sum of the energy of an assembledge of the atoms of one type,
> >Pd here, and of another type, the H here, in the same positions as they
> >are in the crystal, and that of the complete crystal. For example, for the
> >PdH3 crystal, the Total energy of the crystal is -3398.8257 eV, the energy
> >of the Pd atoms alone, but in the same positions as the crystal is
> >-3202.4382 eV and the Hydrogen atoms alone is -172.9349. Subtracting the
> >last two from the first gives -23.4527 eV as the binding energy of the
> >crystal. You can divide this by 12 to get the energy per H atom, or by 4
> >to get the energy per Pd atom. This seems to say that the different PdH
> >hydrides are potentially stable, if they can be actually created. I am
> >currently running the Pd4H10 crystal to get its binding energy.
> 
> The implication from the above is that the binding energy of the Pd
> atoms alone (i.e. the energy which binds Pd atoms together in Pd metal)
> is -3202.4382 eV / 4 Pd atoms = 800 eV/Pd atom.

> 
> This just doesn't make sense. The latent heat of vaporisation of Pd is
> 357 kJ/mol which is  3.7 eV / atom. Add to this the energy required to
> bring it to the boiling point (which will be less than that), and one
> has at most 7.4 eV / atom, not 800 eV / atom.

Robin
	I think it is a question on where the zero of the potential energy
is set. I get -3209.0153 eV for a Pd unit fcc crystal, and a spacing of
3.8907 Angstroms as a default value from CASTEP. When I let it relax I get
-3209.0223 eV with a spacing of 3.909531 Angstroms. A single H spaced 20
Ang in a cubic structure has an energy of -12.5098 eV (differs from the
13.6 eV I would have expected.)

	PdH:  -3273.5869 eV at 4.0861 Angstroms, binding eng -11.8619 eV 
	PdH2: -3335.8309       4.5655 not cubic	 binding eng -17.4082 eV
	Pd4H10: -3367.4243  and is not cubic   	 binding eng -24.5901 eV    
        PdH3: -3398.8257 rectangular 2x4.928, 4.777 bind eng -23.4527 eV
 
Since I wrote this I ran the PdH2. There is definitely a shift in
the crystal shape, a phase change.

TITLE PdH2G 
DIMENSION 3
CELL  a       b          c         alpha      beta       gamma
   4.56559    4.59711    4.59028   82.46331   82.93593   82.64903


ATOMS
NAME     X              Y              Z     
PD1      0.089283422    0.082156874    0.066107795 
PD2      2.511305332    2.214644194   -0.052810267
PD3      0.476946145    2.455862522    2.185526371 
PD4      2.639416695    0.340252995    2.321217537 
H1       2.157442093    1.961927295    1.709228635
H2       1.680932879   -0.588409841   -0.478444815
H3      -0.388362378    1.702711940   -0.561098397
H4      -0.336920857   -0.342407823    1.776869059
H5       3.461776972    3.141499758    2.743162394
H6       0.962723076    0.837252021    2.813009024
H7       0.911638081    2.883051395    0.478429496
H8       2.985954046    0.593003333    0.559103727

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 13:48:55 2001
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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:42:05 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Segway snickering
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Jed
	I believe the motors actively hold it upright, sensing deviations
from vertical and adjusting torques to keep it upright.

Hank



On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Sno wrote:
> 
> >Battery must be most of weight....how much does motorcycle battery weight..??
> 
> Based on my electric bicycle, I estimate the battery weighs between 15 and 
> 20 lbs (7 to 9 kg). The bicycle weighs about as much as the Segway, and it 
> has a slightly longer range, but power is supplemented by the rider. The 
> lead acid battery weighs 20 lbs. The manufacturer told me they are looking 
> at an advanced battery NiH battery which is lighter with a ~30 mile range.
> 
> The Segway is surprisingly heavy, at 60 lbs (27 kg). Mike says it has no 
> counterbalance. I do not understand how it can stay upright without 
> shifting around a counterbalance weight in the pedestal, or with a large 
> gyro, or something like that. A bicycle stays upright because the wheels 
> are gyroscopes. The physics of steering and redirecting a bicycle are 
> complicated, and over my head. To go left, you have to start by steering 
> right. I believe this was first explicated in detail by -- wouldn't you 
> know it -- the Wright brothers, bicycle builders and physicists entraordinaire.
> 
> Bicycle and typewriter manufacturing sprang from the precision arms 
> industries developed during the Civil War. When the war ended, the gun 
> manufacturer Remington looked around for a way to use its precision machine 
> tools and expertise, and it developed the first viable typewriter in 1874. 
> Bicycles and typewriters led, in turn, to the rise of mass production with 
> unprecedented precision, and products such as automobiles and Hollerith 
> tabulating machines.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 14:03:49 2001
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Jed writes...
The Segway is surprisingly heavy, at 60 lbs (27 kg). Mike says it has no 
counterbalance. I do not understand how it can stay upright without 
shifting around a counterbalance weight in the pedestal, or with a large 
gyro, or something like that.
....

Yes, that's the trick. I assumed it would be a flywheel but in looking
at what drawings are around I didn't see one. Do you suppose
with the controlling computer he can achieve balance by wheel
motion alone? 

The batteries are just to get the device on the market, a fuel
cell would make it more practical. I wonder what the top
speed of a cycle is, given a little re-engineering? They say there
are redundant control systems, but I'd hate to be hurtling down
the road and have the OS crash. Ouch.

K.





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 14:33:21 2001
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Subject: RE: Segway snickering
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>They say there are redundant control systems, but I'd hate to be hurtling 
>down the road and have the OS crash. Ouch.

Based on my experience riding scooters, bicycles and so on, I would not 
recommend a speed greater than 12 mph with the Segway. The rider would not 
have time to react to the traffic and road conditions, such as holes and 
objects blocking the way. That was a problem with the scooter with small 
diameter wheels.

As I mentioned some months ago, the thing that make me uneasy about Segway 
is the fact that the rider does not watch the path directly in front of the 
wheels most of the time, the way a bicycle or scooter driver does. You may 
not anticipate where, exactly, the wheels will be in the next few seconds, 
and you may not realize they are headed for a pothole or a brick that some 
idiot dropped in the street. The wheels are only a little farther apart 
than your feet, so perhaps it is no more difficult to steer around 
obstructions than it is to run around them. I would not want to run at 20 
mph on an ordinary U.S. street, even if were capable of it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 14:35:13 2001
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Subject: Re: Segway snickering
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hank scudder wrote:

>         I believe the motors actively hold it upright, sensing deviations
>from vertical and adjusting torques to keep it upright.

You mean the wheels rock back and forth slightly, like a hand balancing a 
bat or a unicycle? That might be a little disconcerting at first.

A track bicycle has direct drive (no freewheel on the back). The cranks 
turn the wheels backward or forward. A skilled rider can stop, and stand 
still without putting his feet on the ground, by rocking back and forth 
slightly, and turning the handlebars. I guess you are saying the Segway 
does something similar.

- Jed

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What came to my mind was "The Wheel" from
that old comic strip BC. They would ride
these things over any surface without
the least concern. No doubt the Segway has
sticter operational limits but the
potential is certainly there...

So buy one Jed, and tell us all how it is.
It sounds a lot more fun than an electric
bike.

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 5:24 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Segway snickering


hank scudder wrote:

>         I believe the motors actively hold it upright, sensing deviations
>from vertical and adjusting torques to keep it upright.

You mean the wheels rock back and forth slightly, like a hand balancing a 
bat or a unicycle? That might be a little disconcerting at first.

A track bicycle has direct drive (no freewheel on the back). The cranks 
turn the wheels backward or forward. A skilled rider can stop, and stand 
still without putting his feet on the ground, by rocking back and forth 
slightly, and turning the handlebars. I guess you are saying the Segway 
does something similar.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 16:58:14 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: PdH3 crystal
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:54:43 +1100
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In reply to  hank scudder's message of Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:38:59 -0800:
[snip]
>> The implication from the above is that the binding energy of the Pd
>> atoms alone (i.e. the energy which binds Pd atoms together in Pd metal)
>> is -3202.4382 eV / 4 Pd atoms = 800 eV/Pd atom.
>
>> 
>> This just doesn't make sense. The latent heat of vaporisation of Pd is
>> 357 kJ/mol which is  3.7 eV / atom. Add to this the energy required to
>> bring it to the boiling point (which will be less than that), and one
>> has at most 7.4 eV / atom, not 800 eV / atom.
>
>Robin
>	I think it is a question on where the zero of the potential energy
>is set. I get -3209.0153 eV for a Pd unit fcc crystal, and a spacing of
[snip]
The zero point is where I have a problem. As near as I can tell, the
difference between Pd vapour, and Pd atoms at infinity is a fraction of
a milli eV / atom (unless you take gravitational potential into account,
in which case you are off by billions of eV anyway), so I can't see a
shift in zero point making much difference.
In order to get the value you have, the crystal would have to be much
denser than it is.
(Note that even 7.4 eV / atom errs very much on the high side).

Now none of this would bother me too much, except that you subtract two
large numbers from one another to get a small one, so a large error in
the magnitude of the large numbers makes the small one meaningless.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> John Berry wrote:
>
> >I think I need a history lesson, I have no idea what your talking about!?
>
> You are the one who needs a history lesson!

I said:  "I think "I" need a history lesson"
Your reply seems to indicate you think I was saying "you" need a history
lesson, I was not.

> Start with Atlanta, September
> 1906, or Elaine, Ark., September 1919:
>
> http://www.savannahnow.com/diversions/CURRENT/BOOKbookneg.shtml
>
> http://detnews.com/2000/nation/0002/11/02110187.htm

I read these pages, they are horrific but pale in comparison to what you first
said.

>
> >The Civil war certianly didn't run for over a century . . .
>
> It ran until 1965, when the voting rights act passed. It was a low level
> war, like the war in Northern Ireland or the Israeli - Palestinian
> conflict. Only occasionally did it break out in large scale pogroms.
>
> >I don't understand how anything like what your saying could have happened
> >after the civil war without me knowing ANYTHING about it?
>
> I am appalled that you know nothing about it.

So am I, I am also appalled that I see no way I could have known anything about
it.
I have not heard the slightest whisper, never heard about such a thing.
I would have expected to see a movie, at least one on the subject.
While I am not an American but a New Zealander I still am under the impression
that my knowledge of American history isn't all that bad and probably no worse
than the average Americans.

> It was the defining event for
> one-tenth of our population. It triggered the largest migration of people
> in human history, from the south to the north.

Can you give me the name of a movie that covers this so I can get at least a
Hollywood version of what happened?

>>         Dear Jed,
>>
>>         What is this about?  Please.   Who did what for 100 years??

>White people terrorized and disenfranchised the black population, and drove
>much of it out of the state. Read history, for goodness sake. I thought
>this was common knowledge.

In my mind when someone says Civil War I think white people from the South
fighting white people from the North (fighting for and against black slavery).
Indeed black people were mostly turned down with poor excuses such as bad night
vision.

When I think about the actions of the KKK and the like I think of racism where
white people kill and terrorize black people. Though certainly not anywhere
400,000!?!?

I have never seen this presented as a continuance of the civil war.

When did the majority of the 400,000 die? During the civil war (from it's start
to generally considered end) or some time after that?
And the deaths occurring after the civil war what was the racial mix, are we
talking approx. half black half white? 90% black, 90% white?

What kind of war was this?

> Here in Georgia lawless thugs and murderers took over the state for a
> century,

Are you saying the actions were state sponsored?
Or that KKK type actions were just ignored by the state?

> from 1863 to 1965. They murdered 400,000 loyal Americans

The key question is how many died after the Civil war was considered over.

> and they instituted a reign of terror and unspeakable tyranny. After 1865
they
> periodically burned entire town, bombed, raped, terrorized half the
> population,

Half? Are we talking geographically or racially?

If I assume that the majority of the 400,000 were black people killed by white
people after the civil war in racial hatred I would have a hard time accepting
such, indeed even 40,000 seems like a shockingly large number, I would not have
expected even 4,000 black people killed after the civil war in the whole of
America.

> and murdered thousands more innocent men, women and children,
> and not one of them was brought to justice. We know what real tyranny is.
> People I know personally suffered from it. We will NEVER forget, and never
> let it happen again. When you abandon democracy and the strong rule of law,
> the worst criminals take over.


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	Dear Jed,

	What happened after 1919?

On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, John Berry wrote:

> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > John Berry wrote:
> >
> > >I think I need a history lesson, I have no idea what your talking about!?
> >
> > You are the one who needs a history lesson!
> 
> I said:  "I think "I" need a history lesson"
> Your reply seems to indicate you think I was saying "you" need a history
> lesson, I was not.
> 
> > Start with Atlanta, September
> > 1906, or Elaine, Ark., September 1919:
> >
> > http://www.savannahnow.com/diversions/CURRENT/BOOKbookneg.shtml
> >
> > http://detnews.com/2000/nation/0002/11/02110187.htm
> 
> I read these pages, they are horrific but pale in comparison to what you first
> said.
> 
> >
> > >The Civil war certianly didn't run for over a century . . .
> >
> > It ran until 1965, when the voting rights act passed. It was a low level
> > war, like the war in Northern Ireland or the Israeli - Palestinian
> > conflict. Only occasionally did it break out in large scale pogroms.
> >
> > >I don't understand how anything like what your saying could have happened
> > >after the civil war without me knowing ANYTHING about it?
> >
> > I am appalled that you know nothing about it.
> 
> So am I, I am also appalled that I see no way I could have known anything about
> it.
> I have not heard the slightest whisper, never heard about such a thing.
> I would have expected to see a movie, at least one on the subject.
> While I am not an American but a New Zealander I still am under the impression
> that my knowledge of American history isn't all that bad and probably no worse
> than the average Americans.
> 
> > It was the defining event for
> > one-tenth of our population. It triggered the largest migration of people
> > in human history, from the south to the north.
> 
> Can you give me the name of a movie that covers this so I can get at least a
> Hollywood version of what happened?
> 
> >>         Dear Jed,
> >>
> >>         What is this about?  Please.   Who did what for 100 years??
> 
> >White people terrorized and disenfranchised the black population, and drove
> >much of it out of the state. Read history, for goodness sake. I thought
> >this was common knowledge.
> 
> In my mind when someone says Civil War I think white people from the South
> fighting white people from the North (fighting for and against black slavery).
> Indeed black people were mostly turned down with poor excuses such as bad night
> vision.
> 
> When I think about the actions of the KKK and the like I think of racism where
> white people kill and terrorize black people. Though certainly not anywhere
> 400,000!?!?
> 
> I have never seen this presented as a continuance of the civil war.
> 
> When did the majority of the 400,000 die? During the civil war (from it's start
> to generally considered end) or some time after that?
> And the deaths occurring after the civil war what was the racial mix, are we
> talking approx. half black half white? 90% black, 90% white?
> 
> What kind of war was this?
> 
> > Here in Georgia lawless thugs and murderers took over the state for a
> > century,
> 
> Are you saying the actions were state sponsored?
> Or that KKK type actions were just ignored by the state?
> 
> > from 1863 to 1965. They murdered 400,000 loyal Americans
> 
> The key question is how many died after the Civil war was considered over.
> 
> > and they instituted a reign of terror and unspeakable tyranny. After 1865
> they
> > periodically burned entire town, bombed, raped, terrorized half the
> > population,
> 
> Half? Are we talking geographically or racially?
> 
> If I assume that the majority of the 400,000 were black people killed by white
> people after the civil war in racial hatred I would have a hard time accepting
> such, indeed even 40,000 seems like a shockingly large number, I would not have
> expected even 4,000 black people killed after the civil war in the whole of
> America.
> 
> > and murdered thousands more innocent men, women and children,
> > and not one of them was brought to justice. We know what real tyranny is.
> > People I know personally suffered from it. We will NEVER forget, and never
> > let it happen again. When you abandon democracy and the strong rule of law,
> > the worst criminals take over.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 18:42:38 2001
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Segway Snickering II
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:37:34 -0800
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It's apparent from some of the comments that have been surfacing about the
Segway that there are a number of Vortex members who have little
understanding of the Segway design, for suggestions are made which run
strongly counter to the principles and necessities involved.

First thanks to Terry Blanton for digging up the commercial vibrating reed
gyros. I wasn't aware that the principle had been reduced to a commercial
product. The motors are of a new design, though little detail of the actual
construction is given, but it fits a 'dual motor' mention on the website.
There is a close physical resemblance between a stepping motor and a
variable reluctance motor. The configuration is capable of very high torque
at slow speeds; a notable application is in direct drive robot such as the
Adept. this high performance machine has no gears driving the first two
joints, so very high speed and accuracy is possible. Variable reluctance
motors can be run without cogging, but stepping motors, which have magnetic
detents, would raise havoc with the servo loops.

Segway has five gyros and redundant computers and the whole system is
updated 100 times per second. This is fast enough that there is no jitter or
hunting in the stabilization system, so the rider experiences only
stability. Certainly the system doesn't run on some unstable OS; custom,
simple code is more like it. Like balancing a baseball bat on the palm on
one's hand, any tilt forward or back is sensed and the wheels move under the
center of gravity to zero the tilt. If the rider intentionally tilts,
continuous motion results. Walking is essentially a series of arrested
falls.

Kaman also developed a wheelchair using this technology. It can climb stairs
and lift its rider several feet in the air while balancing forward and
backward with the same kind of dynamic stability. There is a picture of
Kaman seated comfortably in his chair, elevated to the head level of a
standing man, and the chair dynamically balanced.

Stirling engines and fuel cells are distinctly NOT suitable for Segway. The
drive system has to be capable of very high bursts of power to retain
stability over rough terrain or a bump or a sudden motion of the passenger.
NiCad batteries are probably the champs, with NiMH batteries close behind
and with superior charge cycle capability. One can dream of a BLP battery,
but this is probably only a dream for the present decade.

There are lots of what-ifs. Given Kaman's track record, these have been
considered and dealt with. I've seen the man up close in a kickoff meeting
for a F.I.R.S.T competition, and he is impressive.

I think that Segway can be a very docile beast that your grandmother could
ride safely. No doubt someone will find a way to soup it up and there may be
Xtreme Sports events with Segways in time. I can understand the reported
remarks from early viewers that this could eventually have a significant
impact on urban planning.

Mike Carrell


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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: DEC TEC Test 1 (fwd)
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	Test 1


	hot side		90 C
	cold side 		30 C

	2.5 by 1 inches

	490 mV
	2.5 mA

	This is one single junction or cell.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 19:01:01 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: FWD:  Plutonium Contamination on 9/11? (FYI)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:02:32 -0500
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On Sunday 02 December 2001 02:12 pm, Terry Blanton wrote:
> thomas malloy wrote:
> > I received this email from Pat Bailey and responded with the
> > following paragraph.
> >
> > I don't know Pat, according to Ed Storms, only 1% of the Pu is split
> > in two during the nuclear event. 99% of 23 pounds is basically 23
> > pounds, This Pu is vaporized as fine as you can get it. We detonated
> > 500 <charges> during the '50 and early '60's. Consequently I'm not just
> > too worried about 4 pounds of Pu
>
> There are radiation detectors surrounding all nuclear plants and at many
> universities.  They would be screaming like a banshee in this scenario.
> Also, I don't think Chernobyl was fueled with Pu.  ;-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Terry

You are right, it was just an old design uranium boiler that somebody
decided to try unauthorized 'experiments' on the day it was destroyed.
That part about the <charge> contents of  94Pu239 containing approx 23
lbs only part of which is consumed in the explosion of a 'H' bomb
(assumed use of 94Pu239 as atom <charge> trigger for larger fusion 
device as this material is more compact and produces more efficient charge
in a small focused space).  
	All that fearmongering over one stinkin pound of stuff that is more
dense than lead.  Every compound of it is heavy, and almost none are
soluble.  The whole thing smacks of someone crying fire in a crowded
theater and then standing at the only door handing out propaganda.  
The ploy may just work with the uneducated or drug deviated, but will
fall on barren ground here.
	
Standing Bear
.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 19:28:54 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Helmets . . .
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:28:29 -0500
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On Wednesday 05 December 2001 07:23 pm, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Bob Fickle wrote:
> >Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > > <snip>
> > > Helmet technology did not exist in 1980. The materials were not
> > > invented.
> >
> >Just for the record:  I bought a helmet in 1973, and have worn one ever
> >since.  In fact, I would feel naked (read:  vulnerable) riding without it.
>
> At that time I wore a common type of bicycle racer's helmet, which was
> practically useless. I guess Bob is saying there were better ones, but they
> were not well known to the public, or to me. They were a little like
> microcomputers in 1979 -- known only to aficionados. It is interesting how
> long technology sometimes takes to surface and catch people's attention.
>
> - Jed

Aw C'mon,
  Fer cryin' out loud.  Ya think that we just dropped off of da turnip
truck 3 years ago fully growed?  Helmets not existing in 1980!  What
a crock!  Lawrence of Arabia wore one when he drove a motorcycle 
in World War I fer Chrissakes!  Not a very gooooood one;  he DID
die in a motorcycle accident of head injuries.  There have been
good helmets around since the late 60's when standards were 
developed after a number of fatal accidents due to faulty helmets.
The standards were not perfect, but you will find that ASTM Z90-1
has helped.  Better was the standard established by the Snell
Memorial Foundation for the rating of motorcycle crash helmets
in the very late sixties and early seventies.  I bought such a helmet
back in 1971.  So when ya flaps yer gums about helmets, please
do your staff work first, ensign!

Standing Bear

By the way.  Lots of helmets in yard sales.  Don't buy 'em.  Folks
that a sellin' them probably been 'down' on 'em.  Once impacted
in any kind of accident, the foam inside is compressed in the
direction of the collision of it with whatever.... and it is useless from
that time forward as a personal protection device even though
it 'looks' just fine on the outside.  A lot of 'used' helmets will
show some kind of scrape mark, and sellers will often pass this 
off as insignificant.  Don't believe it!  Take it from a biker.  If'n
ya' gots a two dolla head, then go ahead and stick it in'a two
dolla helmet.  Then there is my pet peeve about bicycles.  Used
to ride one before my lazy nature asserted itself and I got a
'scooter'.  I was able to reach speeds of over 40 miles per
hour in an old monster my uncle gave me.  That tank of a bike
weiged over 40 pounds and had 2-1/2 inch sand tires and
a tank to hold your lunch, your tools, and still had space to
spare.  I was able to outrun dogs with it as long as I went 
downhill...puff....pufff......pppuuuufffff.   Point is, you can reach
motor vehicle speeds on a bicycle, and those speeds deserve
respect.  As a father and grandad, I see to it that my kids wear
a motorcycle helmet, albeit a 'short' one, on their bikes, motorized
or not.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 20:17:33 2001
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On Thursday 06 December 2001 08:47 pm, John Schnurer wrote:
> Dear Jed,
>
> 	What happened after 1919?
>
> On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, John Berry wrote:
> > Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > > John Berry wrote:
> > > >I think I need a history lesson, I have no idea what your talking
> > > > about!?
> > >
> > > You are the one who needs a history lesson!
> >
> > I said:  "I think "I" need a history lesson"
> > Your reply seems to indicate you think I was saying "you" need a history
> > lesson, I was not.
> >
> > > Start with Atlanta, September
> > > 1906, or Elaine, Ark., September 1919:
> > >
> > > http://www.savannahnow.com/diversions/CURRENT/BOOKbookneg.shtml
> > >
> > > http://detnews.com/2000/nation/0002/11/02110187.htm
> >
> > I read these pages, they are horrific but pale in comparison to what you
> > first said.
> >
> > > >The Civil war certianly didn't run for over a century . . .
> > >
> > > It ran until 1965, when the voting rights act passed. It was a low
> > > level war, like the war in Northern Ireland or the Israeli -
> > > Palestinian conflict. Only occasionally did it break out in large scale
> > > pogroms.
> > >
> > > >I don't understand how anything like what your saying could have
> > > > happened after the civil war without me knowing ANYTHING about it?
> > >
> > > I am appalled that you know nothing about it.
> >
> > So am I, I am also appalled that I see no way I could have known anything
> > about it.
> > I have not heard the slightest whisper, never heard about such a thing.
> > I would have expected to see a movie, at least one on the subject.
> > While I am not an American but a New Zealander I still am under the
> > impression that my knowledge of American history isn't all that bad and
> > probably no worse than the average Americans.
> >
> > > It was the defining event for
> > > one-tenth of our population. It triggered the largest migration of
> > > people in human history, from the south to the north.
> >
> > Can you give me the name of a movie that covers this so I can get at
> > least a Hollywood version of what happened?
> >
> > >>         Dear Jed,
> > >>
> > >>         What is this about?  Please.   Who did what for 100 years??
> > >
> > >White people terrorized and disenfranchised the black population, and
> > > drove much of it out of the state. Read history, for goodness sake. I
> > > thought this was common knowledge.
> >
> > In my mind when someone says Civil War I think white people from the
> > South fighting white people from the North (fighting for and against
> > black slavery). Indeed black people were mostly turned down with poor
> > excuses such as bad night vision.
> >
> > When I think about the actions of the KKK and the like I think of racism
> > where white people kill and terrorize black people. Though certainly not
> > anywhere 400,000!?!?
> >
> > I have never seen this presented as a continuance of the civil war.
> >
> > When did the majority of the 400,000 die? During the civil war (from it's
> > start to generally considered end) or some time after that?
> > And the deaths occurring after the civil war what was the racial mix, are
> > we talking approx. half black half white? 90% black, 90% white?
> >
> > What kind of war was this?
> >
> > > Here in Georgia lawless thugs and murderers took over the state for a
> > > century,
> >
> > Are you saying the actions were state sponsored?
> > Or that KKK type actions were just ignored by the state?
> >
> > > from 1863 to 1965. They murdered 400,000 loyal Americans
> >
> > The key question is how many died after the Civil war was considered
> > over.
> >
> > > and they instituted a reign of terror and unspeakable tyranny. After
> > > 1865
> >
> > they
> >
> > > periodically burned entire town, bombed, raped, terrorized half the
> > > population,
> >
> > Half? Are we talking geographically or racially?
> >
> > If I assume that the majority of the 400,000 were black people killed by
> > white people after the civil war in racial hatred I would have a hard
> > time accepting such, indeed even 40,000 seems like a shockingly large
> > number, I would not have expected even 4,000 black people killed after
> > the civil war in the whole of America.
> >
> > > and murdered thousands more innocent men, women and children,
> > > and not one of them was brought to justice. We know what real tyranny
> > > is. People I know personally suffered from it. We will NEVER forget,
> > > and never let it happen again. When you abandon democracy and the
> > > strong rule of law, the worst criminals take over.

Obviousely no United States citizens are in the above discussion.  It thought
about going over all the points.......for one or two femtoseconds.....and
then realized that NObody in the discussion had a clue to real history
here in the United States.  Up until the War Between the States (1860-65),
and before that the Napoleonic Wars, no country had engaged in what is 
called 'democratic warfare' since the time of Republican Rome.  European 
armies averaged 100,000 to 250,000 total forces egaged.  Then came the
French Revolution and the world changed.  Fear was struck in the hearts
of royals when the French Republicans came up with 800,000 troops to
defend Paris in the 1790's.  The United States, whom England sought
to recapture with less than 40000 troops in 1814, now fielded over
five million troops between the two sided, all the various fronts added
together.  The world now knew a new kid was on the street and things
would never be the same.  The British in particular saw the growth of
our Navy and knew that sun was setting on their empire.  Read the
well known books about this conflict by Bruce Catton.  They are found
in most libraries..
	As for the KKK, it was started by some Tennessee college
students who wanted a 'Greek letter fraternity' of their own.  This
was hijacked by outsiders, veterans of the War Between the States
led by an ex Confederate General Nathan N. B. Forrest.  After
a series of notorious incidents, it was subdued by the Federal
Army and by 1868 was a spent force.  A report on the affair called
the 'Report of the Congressional Investigation of the Ku Klux Klan'
dated 1867 is in some libraries.  It is larger than the 'Warren Report'
from the Kennedy assassination investigation, and is very dry
reading for the most part.  The Klan was resurrected in the late
nineteen-teens by a salesman who wanted to make money selling 
memberships.  He was quite successfull. In the context of the times; 
this resulting 'Klan' was not unlike other reactionary groups in other 
parts of the world.  It never gained real political power over more 
than small areas of the country, and then did not hold it well.....or long.
   There certainly was not any hundred years war here.  We Americans
don't have patience for wars that last much longer than five years.
History knows that.  Look how we ran away from our ideals in 
Viet-Nam.  We are still paying for that one even though most of
us do not realize it.........like higher oil prices.   The west was shown
to really BE a paper tiger, so the Middle East is making us pay
through the nose for the oil.  They know we won't fight.

Standing Bear

......kinda got far away from topic.....will get off soap box now.....

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Neutron Evolution article in IE
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 15:18:24 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

In IE Vol 7 issue 40 2001, on page 69 there is a shortened report from
Mizuno et al about neutron evolution.
One thing that strikes me is that when the voltage is raised, triggering
neutron evolution, the current suddenly drops. This would seem to
indicate a physical change in the cell, such as e.g. the development of
a plasma envelope around the cathode as a result of the voltage
increase.
If this is the case, then one might expect the ensuing sparking that
occurs in the plasma to produce a considerable increase in electrical
noise in the system. 

Perhaps the detectors picked up some of this increased noise, rather
than actual neutrons.

As the plasma ate away at the cathode wires they would get smaller, so
that the level of noise would also reduce, finally dying away completely
when the cathode was consumed.

OTOH, should this indeed be due to real nuclear reactions, then I offer
the following possibility:

Pd106 + D -> Ag107 + n + 3.56 MeV (can't explain why these are not seen)
Pd106 + D -> Ag108 + 10.8 MeV (During D loading phase)
Ag108 + H -> Cd108 + n + 0.867 MeV (sporadically during H loading phase)
Ag108 + H -> Cd109 + 8.2 MeV (more often)
Ag108 + D -> Cd110 + 15.9 MeV (also frequent)

The half life of Ag108 is 2.39 min which matches Fig. 2 reasonably well.

Also Cd109 -> Ag109 with emission of an 88 keV gamma and a half life of
462 days, so these gammas should be detectable after the experiment.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  6 20:50:00 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: NERL ultrasonic excess
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 15:46:58 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

In IE Vol 7 issue 40 page 36 and following, NERL report excess heat from
a Stringham ultrasonic CF device.
I am struck by the inverse nature of the curves for excess heat and
ultrasonic power. As the US power decreases, the excess power increases
in like measure, until at the end of the run both meet at the reference
level. To me this says that either the reference level wandered during
the run, or power that should have been attributed as ultrasonic ended
up being attributed to excess power. I see no reason why the ultrasonic
power should decrease over time.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  7 07:56:25 2001
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Subject: Yomiuri: Segway will not be allowed on roads
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The Yomiuri described the Segway vehicle this morning in some detail, and 
reported that it would probably not be allowed on Japanese motor vehicle 
roads, because it has no lights and "no brake or accelerator controls." The 
reporter may have been confused about the latter point. Presumably, it 
would be confined to sidewalks and bicycle lanes. They could put a light on 
the thing easily enough. It might be a good idea, not so much to illuminate 
the road, but to warn other drivers.

This ruling may change, although the Japanese government is stubborn about 
rules, and it has been known to apply them unfairly to shut out foreign 
innovation.

In an unrelated development, the Japanese press reported this morning that 
the newly born princess has been named "Aiko." That means "love-child" 
literally, without the unsavory implications that term carries in American 
English.

Mike Carrell wrote:

>Stirling engines and fuel cells are distinctly NOT suitable for Segway. 
>The drive system has to be capable of very high bursts of power to retain 
>stability over rough terrain or a bump or a sudden motion of the 
>passenger. NiCad batteries are probably the champs . . .

Perhaps a fuel cell could be used to continually recharge a NiCad? That 
would be complicated and expensive, but the energy density of fuel cells is 
far higher than a battery, so it might extend the range with the same 
weight. Fuel cells have been successfully tested on bicycles.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  7 09:59:46 2001
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Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:51:38 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Neutron Evolution article in IE
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

One thing that strikes me is that when the voltage is raised, triggering
>neutron evolution, the current suddenly drops. This would seem to
>indicate a physical change in the cell, such as e.g. the development of
>a plasma envelope around the cathode as a result of the voltage
>increase.

I think that is unlikely. This is an liquid electrochemical P&F-style 
experiment, at relatively low power, nothing like a glow discharge 
experiment. No doubt the voltage change has something to do with the discharge.


>OTOH, should this indeed be due to real nuclear reactions, then I offer
>the following possibility:
>
>Pd106 + D -> Ag107 + n + 3.56 MeV (can't explain why these are not seen)
>Pd106 + D -> Ag108 + 10.8 MeV (During D loading phase)
>Ag108 + H -> Cd108 + n + 0.867 MeV (sporadically during H loading phase)
>Ag108 + H -> Cd109 + 8.2 MeV (more often)
>Ag108 + D -> Cd110 + 15.9 MeV (also frequent)

The neutrons have very little energy. Some other people wondered whether 
this might be a conventional fractofusion. I asked Takahashi about this 
possibility. He replied in English as follows:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Even so, when we assumed to have had fracto d+d fusion, its emitted 
neutron  energy should be around 2.5 MeV which could be identified with an 
NE213 scintillator under the conventional technique as I wrote in the book 
of  Nuclear Reaction in Solids. Cd cover sheet for He-3 detector cuts 
neutrons having energy less than about 0.5 eV. So far, those 2.5 MeV 
neutrons would be counted by the Cd covered He-3 detector which Mizuno 
used, albeit less counting rate than bare He-3 detectors. Cd ratio, counts 
ratio between Cd-covered He-3 and bare He-3, which Mizuno observed, was 
larger than 50; this means detected neutron spectrum was so soft (a typical 
thermalized Maxwellian with 300 deg K temperature with an 1/E type 
epithermal tail, as usually observed in the out-core region of light water 
fission reactor), that low energy neutrons, much less than 2.5 MeV, should 
be suggested to emit from source, for the case that Mizuno used a 5 cm 
thick (not thick enough to moderate 2.5 MeV neutrons completely) 
polyethylene moderator surrounding He-3 detectors.

[If we could] detect neutrons with an NE213 detector with the lower level 
discrimination of around 1 MeV, we could resolve the case, comparing with 
the simultaneous detection with He-3 detectors. If neutron energy would be 
so low, only bare He-3 detectors (and buble detector also, if we use it) 
should detect neutron counts. We need this kind of study to clarify the case.

In my laboratory, my students have tried to replicate Mizuno's experiment, 
but using a cross checking neutron counting system of a He-3 detector and 
an NE213 detector. We tried 10 runs with similar alternation from heavy 
water to light water or light water to heavy water, in electrolysis with Pd 
cathode. Unfortunately, we could detect a meaningful burst event of 
neutrons (7 counts per second) for only one case out of ten runs, for which 
we saw that counts with the He-3 detector, but we had nothing of burst 
events with the NE213 detector. However, this burst of 7 counts per second 
by He-3 detector was very rare event, since background neutron count was 
around one count per 2 minutes. In our twelve years observation of neutrons 
for CF experiments, this was the first and only one case to see such a 
burst count. We checked that pulses of 7 events were appeared around the 
thermal peak (765 keV Q-value of He-3(n,p)T reaction) of He-3 detector 
pulse height distribution  in MCA. So, these were not by electromagnetic 
noise events nor other noise source, but looked like real neutron events.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  7 11:13:18 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Helmets . . .
In-Reply-To: <200112070324.fB73Ov601963 mail4.mx.voyager.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011205192035.030315f8 pop.mindspring.com>
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Standing Bear wrote:

>   Fer cryin' out loud.  Ya think that we just dropped off of da turnip
>truck 3 years ago fully growed?  Helmets not existing in 1980!  What
>a crock!  Lawrence of Arabia wore one when he drove a motorcycle
>in World War I fer Chrissakes!

I did not say that. I said that modern bicycle helmets were not widely 
distributed or known in the 1960s. The kind I used resembled the leather 
helmets used by aviators and football players in the 1940s.

Motorcycle or modern football helmets would not be suitable for bicycles. 
They would restrict vision too much because bicycles cannot easily be 
equipped with mirrors, and they would cause heat stroke. This is a good 
example of how different customer requirements result in different products.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  7 15:29:02 2001
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From: "Vince Cockeram" <vcockeram lvcm.com>
To: "VORTEX-L" <VORTEX-L eskimo.com>
Subject: USGS earthquake list cutoff
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:20:39 -0800
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Received the following email at 15:30 Friday Dec 07, 2001.  I WAS receiving
earthquake notification but it seems the USGS thinks that this is a security
risk! Huh? What's going one here?

FROM USGS:
To all subscribers to the USGS bigquake E-mail distribution list:

The Bigquake List is temporarily out of order.

The following memo was just received by all USGS employees.
At this point no one is sure how long this will affect E-mail
distribution.

John Lahr

----------

Subject: Disconnecting E-mail and Internet Access
    Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:27:31 -0500
    From: Director's_Office usgs.gov
      To: USGS_All usgs.gov


From:     Chip Groat

To:       All USGS Employees Nationwide

Subject:  Disconnecting E-mail and Internet Access

At the direction of the Office of the Secretary, the USGS has been ordered
to
immediately disconnect all of its external network connections due to
security concerns of the Court in the Cobell v. Norton case.  As a result,
all USGS users will not be able to:

·    Send or receive Internet email
·    Send or receive email outside of USGS
·    Access the Internet
·    Access FPPS

In addition, all USGS customers will not be able to:

·    Access USGS web pages
·    Send email or receive email from USGS

These measures were ordered by the Court after the Special Master for the
Cobell litigation hired a contractor to conduct penetration testing of
Indian
Trust Management systems resulting in a compromise of those systems.  As a
result, all Bureaus must take these measures.

Cost centers that have their own ISP service must work with their provider
to
filter all public access to their web and email.  Cost centers should
provide
a contact name and phone number to receive notification of ability to
reinstate services.

It is unknown at this time how long these measures will be in place.  The
Department is working with the Court to discuss the security of our systems
and the restoration of the affected connections.  In the interim, users may
wish to contact their frequent business contacts and make arrangements to
conduct business by telephone and fax.  I understand that these measures
have
serious consequences to our ability to meet our mission and I ask for your
understanding until such time as the Court sees fit to allow us to restore
these services.

----------


John C. Lahr
lahr usgs.gov

Central Region Geologic Hazards Team
U.S. Geological Survey
PO Box 25046
Denver, CO 80225

Vince

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  7 15:34:41 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Dec 07, 2001
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:26:59 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 07 Dec 01   Washington, DC

1. MISSILE DEFENSE: TEST SUCCEEDS ON A NICE DAY.  Originally set
for Saturday (WN 30 Nov 01), the seventh of 18 planned tests was
delayed until the weather improved on Monday. The test design was
identical to the successful test conducted in July 2000.  That
is, the target carried a homing beacon and deployed a single
decoy that didn't resemble a real warhead.  The Pentagon promises
to make the tests more realistic in coming months.  Meanwhile,
the US and Russia met the START I deadline for reducing nuclear
arsenals; some 4,000 real warheads aimed at us were destroyed.

2. SPACE TRAVEL: THERE ARE A FEW HEALTH PROBLEMS TO DEAL WITH. 
NASA is making plans for a human mission to Mars in 2014 that
would take 30 months. At the request of NASA, a committee of the
Institute of Health has examined the health issues surrounding
long-duration space missions outside Earth's magnetosphere ("Safe
Passage," National Academy Press, Washington, DC 2001, $80).  The
greatest risk is radiation exposure.  There are no data on
effects of the high-Z, high-energy particles that flood space and
no suitable experimental facilities on Earth.  Nor is there any
way to predict solar outbursts with much higher radiation levels. 
Loss of bone density in zero gravity is so severe and NASA's
"countermeasures" so marginally effective, that a mission to Mars
with humans is unlikely to be undertaken unless a biological
solution is found.  Most surprising was the importance the report
gives to the risk of psychological and social stress.

3. SPACE ENTERTAINMENT: ANOTHER HIGH-TECH BUNGEE JUMPER SIGNS ON. 
For his $20M Dennis Tito got stomach problems, but that didn't
seem to discourage 28-year-old Mark Shuttleworth, a South-African
multi-millionaire, from paying the Russian space agency full fare
to be the second tourist to visit the ISS.  Meanwhile, MirCorp is
launching "Ancient Astronaut," a 13-part television contestant
show that will originate in such exotic places as Stonehenge.

4. DIETARY SUPPLEMENTS: THERE ARE LOTS OF THEM, BUT DO THEY WORK? 
There is a widespread belief that the FDA wouldn't allow all that
over-the-counter stuff to be sold if it weren't safe, but the '94
Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act exempted suppliers of
these "natural" substances from the need to demonstrate safety or
efficacy, as long as no claim is made that it actually cures you
of anything.  They can claim it enhances the immune system, for
example, but not that it prevents colds.  The media seemed to go
along with the herbal fad, and the DSHEA sparked a huge growth in
supplement sales.  But when Stephen Strauss was chosen to head
the alternative medicine program at NIH (WN 16 Nov 01), he began
insisting that this stuff be scientifically tested to see if it
works.  Studies found that some popular supplements may even be
dangerous.  Now a move is getting underway to repeal the DSHEA.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  7 16:33:39 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: USGS earthquake list cutoff
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 11:30:07 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Vince Cockeram's message of Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:20:39 -0800:

>Received the following email at 15:30 Friday Dec 07, 2001.  I WAS receiving
>earthquake notification but it seems the USGS thinks that this is a security
>risk! Huh? What's going one here?
[snip]
Ostensibly their server security has been found wanting, and they are
off the air until it is beefed up. However if you are looking for a link
between national security and earthquakes, then consider that the US has
the ability to generate earthquakes almost at will, as a weapon of war,
a secret it would prefer to keep.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  7 17:33:38 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Neutron Evolution article in IE
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 12:29:44 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:51:38 -0500:

>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>One thing that strikes me is that when the voltage is raised, triggering
>>neutron evolution, the current suddenly drops. This would seem to
>>indicate a physical change in the cell, such as e.g. the development of
>>a plasma envelope around the cathode as a result of the voltage
>>increase.
>
>I think that is unlikely. This is an liquid electrochemical P&F-style 
>experiment, at relatively low power, nothing like a glow discharge 
>experiment. No doubt the voltage change has something to do with the discharge.

Note that the cathode is much smaller in this cell than in the glow
discharge cells, so the current density could be higher, and I suspect
this would make it easier to start a plasma, as it would need less
volume. IOW it might start at a lower voltage.


>
>
>>OTOH, should this indeed be due to real nuclear reactions, then I offer
>>the following possibility:
>>
>>Pd106 + D -> Ag107 + n + 3.56 MeV (can't explain why these are not seen)
>>Pd106 + D -> Ag108 + 10.8 MeV (During D loading phase)


This is the important reaction in this series:

>>Ag108 + H -> Cd108 + n + 0.867 MeV (sporadically during H loading phase)

..which might fit in better with the low energy requirement.

>>Ag108 + H -> Cd109 + 8.2 MeV (more often)
>>Ag108 + D -> Cd110 + 15.9 MeV (also frequent)
>
>The neutrons have very little energy. Some other people wondered whether 
>this might be a conventional fractofusion. I asked Takahashi about this 
>possibility. He replied in English as follows:
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>Even so, when we assumed to have had fracto d+d fusion, its emitted 
>neutron  energy should be around 2.5 MeV which could be identified with an 
>NE213 scintillator under the conventional technique as I wrote in the book 
>of  Nuclear Reaction in Solids. Cd cover sheet for He-3 detector cuts 
>neutrons having energy less than about 0.5 eV. So far, those 2.5 MeV 
>neutrons would be counted by the Cd covered He-3 detector which Mizuno 
>used, albeit less counting rate than bare He-3 detectors. Cd ratio, counts 
>ratio between Cd-covered He-3 and bare He-3, which Mizuno observed, was 
>larger than 50; this means detected neutron spectrum was so soft (a typical 
>thermalized Maxwellian with 300 deg K temperature with an 1/E type 
>epithermal tail, as usually observed in the out-core region of light water 
>fission reactor), that low energy neutrons, much less than 2.5 MeV, should 
>be suggested to emit from source, for the case that Mizuno used a 5 cm 
>thick (not thick enough to moderate 2.5 MeV neutrons completely) 

But it might be thick enough to moderate 0.867 MeV neutrons completely?

>polyethylene moderator surrounding He-3 detectors.

While Cd113 has a very high absorption cross section for thermal
neutrons, there are also quite a few peaks with an amplitude up to
several hundred barns at energies up to 1000 eV.
(See
http://atom.kaeri.re.kr/cgi-bin/w3endf/?lab=&mt=Cd-113%3D27&ax=auto&e0=&e1=&ay=auto&y0=&y1=&sx=&sy=
)
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  7 18:42:10 2001
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> However if you are looking for a link
> between national security and earthquakes, then consider that the US has
> the ability to generate earthquakes almost at will, as a weapon of war,
> a secret it would prefer to keep.
> 

If someone have capability to create earthquakes, this would be great help
for civilization, in order to keep earthquakes under control, that is a method
to periodically maintain faults, by relaxing their stress by small energy releases.

I had thought this possibility as a application of Podkletnov gravity beam.


> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  7 21:54:44 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: USGS earthquake list cutoff
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 16:46:10 +1100
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In reply to  hamdi ucar's message of Sat, 08 Dec 2001 04:37:35 +0200:
[snip]
>If someone have capability to create earthquakes, this would be great help
>for civilization, in order to keep earthquakes under control, that is a method
>to periodically maintain faults, by relaxing their stress by small energy releases.

Usually this is true, however I think the "dog leg" in the San Andreas
is an exception. When it finally gives way you have to get at least a
magnitude 10 on the Richter scale.

>
>I had thought this possibility as a application of Podkletnov gravity beam.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  8 01:15:41 2001
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From: Stephen Lawrence <stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk>
Subject: Off topic: Redistributing wealth
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It seems to me that wealth redistribution is a form of safety measure, 
could easily be used as an "anti-terrorism" measure.  It's just 
self-defence really.  You do it because you don't want anyone's creativity 
to be stifled by lack of access to resources.  If people feel neglected 
because they fell "you" are unjustly witholding things, "they" usually end 
up throwing bombs at "you" sooner or later.

Stephen.

8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB.  Tel 01223 564373

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  8 06:14:48 2001
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> In reply to  hamdi ucar's message of Sat, 08 Dec 2001 04:37:35 +0200:
> [snip]
> >If someone have capability to create earthquakes, this would be great help
> >for civilization, in order to keep earthquakes under control, that is a method
> >to periodically maintain faults, by relaxing their stress by small energy releases.
> 
> Usually this is true, however I think the "dog leg" in the San Andreas
> is an exception. When it finally gives way you have to get at least a
> magnitude 10 on the Richter scale.

Yes, it may be too late (for a maintenance). But there is a another effect
of the Podkletnov beam, the backward radiation, which fuse things together.
It may be used either to fix San Andreas fault or plasticize (softening the
rock) and fault move smoothly without making vibration, therefore land would
deplace without accompagning an earthquake.

Of course, if we will have such a advenced technology to fix interior of a
planet, it would be more economic to build eartquake proof buildings and
other onland structures, instead. :)

> 
> >
> >I had thought this possibility as a application of Podkletnov gravity beam.
> [snip]
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  8 16:16:31 2001
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From: "David Rosignoli" <drdaveor enter.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: You Can Be Part Of A New SCI FI Series!
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 19:14:10 -0500
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FYI to all you folks. It is a shame. Some of these subjects are more
credible than others.

----- Original Message -----
From: Scifi.Com <members www.scifi.com>
To: All Members <members www.scifi.com>
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 4:43 AM
Subject: You Can Be Part Of A New SCI FI Series!


> The SCI FI Channel is proud to announce a new reality series, and we
> want you -- NEED you -- to be a part of it!
>
> AN INTERVIEW SHOW ABOUT THE PARANORMAL!
>
> In production right now, SCI FI has an interview show like no other.
> Not a hoax, not a put-on, it's a real-life nightly journey to the
> borderland of the unexplained and the frontiers of the improbable.
>
> Each night, our celebrity host and new guests work from YOUR questions
> and comments as they answer, explain and recount their fascinating
> experiences with the paranormal, the supernatural and other
> alternative realms.
>
> HERE'S HOW *YOU* PARTICIPATE!
> -------------------
> E-mail us your questions, comments, experiences, theories or
> explanations -- the more specific the better! -- related to any of
> the topics below. We'll use selected ones during each episode, and
> we may even invite you to phone-in during taping!
>
> Send your e-mails to outthere www.scifi.com. Make sure to put your
> topic in the subject line. If we plan to use your e-mail, or to
> phone you to participate live, one of the producers of the series
> will follow up. IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT!
>
> Here's a list of topics that may be featured during our December 2001
> and January 2002 tapings:
>
> EXTRATERRESTRIALS & OUTER SPACE
> * Roswell, Area 51 & Government Cover-Ups
> * Alien Technology
> * Sightings, Abductions & Alien Encounters
> * Alien Archeology
> * Lost & Hidden Planets
> * The Apollo Moon Landing "Hoax"
>
> THE SPIRITUAL WORLD & THE AFTERLIFE
> * Angels & Demonic Possession
> * Miracles & the Power of Prayer
> * Poltergeists, Hauntings & Ghostbusters
> * Nature Spirits & Fairies
>
> SEERS & SECRETS OF THE UNIVERSE
> * Visions & Prophecies
> * Astrology
> * The Bible Code
> * Shared Dreams
>
> THE OCCULT
> * Witchcraft, Spells & Hexes
> * Werewolves & Zombies
> * Paganism, Santeria & Voodoo
> * Nazis & the Occult
>
> CRYPTOZOOLOGY
> * Bigfoot, Yeti, & the Chupacabra
> * Sea Monsters & Living Dinosaurs
> * Genetic Throwbacks & Hybrid "Monsters"
>
> UNTAPPED HUMAN POTENTIAL
> * Psychic Spies, Psychic Surgery & Animal Psychics
> * Mediums, Out-of-Body Experiences & Remote Viewing
> * Levitation, Telekinesis & ESP
> * Spontaneous Human Combustion
> * Super Intelligence
>
> NEW, SECRET & LOST TECHNOLOGY
> * Anti-Gravity & Weather Control
> * The Philadelphia Experiment, the Montauk Project & Nikola Tesla
> * Free-Energy Devices
> * Mind Control
> * The Raelians & Cloning
> * Suspended Animation
> * Time Travel & Parallel Universes
>
> ANCIENT PHENOMENA
> * Lost Cities & Continents
> * Mysteries of the Pyramids
> * Ancient Astronauts
>
> EARTH MYSTERIES
> * Strange Weather, Crop Circles & Forteana
> * Geomancy & Dowsing
> * Hollow Earth
>
> Thanks, and watch for episodes of our new show on SCI FI
>  in early 2002.
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  9 09:29:33 2001
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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 11:28:25 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Off topic: Redistributing wealth
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>It seems to me that wealth redistribution is a form of safety 
>measure, could easily be used as an "anti-terrorism" measure.  It's 
>just self-defence really.  You do it because you don't want anyone's 
>creativity to be stifled by lack of access to resources.  If people 
>feel neglected because they fell "you" are unjustly witholding 
>things, "they" usually end up throwing bombs at "you" sooner or 
>later.
>
>Stephen.
>
>8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB.  Tel 01223 564373

I just can't let this go unchallenged. The people who throw bombs are 
sions of the middle class. No finer example of this can be had than 
the people who blew up the World Trade Center, and headed up El 
Quita. All were raised comfortably middle class. Mandatory wealth 
redistribution programs produce waste. No finer example of this can 
be found than our National Council of the Arts. They have bankrolled 
absolute garbage in the name of art. IMHO, good art will fund itself. 
While there are some people who are incapable of taking care of them 
selves, the vast majority will perform once the governmental 
subsidity is removed and it is sink or swim.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  9 09:33:19 2001
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>either Hamdi of Robin posted;
>
>Yes, it may be too late (for a maintenance). But there is a another effect
>of the Podkletnov beam, the backward radiation,

The last I heard of Podletnov, NASA had tested his disk and found no 
effect on gravity. What is this beam, what kind of radiation is it 
producing, what can it fuse together.


>which fuse things together.
>It may be used either to fix San Andreas fault or plasticize (softening the
>rock) and fault move smoothly without making vibration, therefore land would
>deplace without accompagning an earthquake.


Great idea, too bad there's not enough energy in the entire American 
power grid to pull it off!

>Of course, if we will have such a advenced technology to fix interior of a
>planet, it would be more economic to build eartquake proof buildings and
>other onland structures, instead. :)
>
>>
>>  >
>>  >I had thought this possibility as a application of Podkletnov gravity beam.
>>  [snip]
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>Regards,
>hamdi ucar


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  9 10:43:46 2001
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thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> >either Hamdi of Robin posted;
> >
> >Yes, it may be too late (for a maintenance). But there is a another effect
> >of the Podkletnov beam, the backward radiation,
> 
> The last I heard of Podletnov, NASA had tested his disk and found no
> effect on gravity. What is this beam, what kind of radiation is it
> producing, what can it fuse together.

See http://users.telemail.it/gmodanese/forum.htm

and gravity.org

> 
> >which fuse things together.
> >It may be used either to fix San Andreas fault or plasticize (softening the
> >rock) and fault move smoothly without making vibration, therefore land would
> >deplace without accompagning an earthquake.
> 
> Great idea, too bad there's not enough energy in the entire American
> power grid to pull it off!

Preliminary results give the possibility of violation of conservation of energy.

Regards, hamdi

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 10 06:28:04 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Guy making fusion rocket
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See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/09/magazine/09WTWT.html

Actually, this is credible. The man doing it is a famous inventor. Some 
quotes from article:

New York Times Magazine

December 9, 2001
What They Were Thinking

Photograph by DOUG DUBOIS Interview by CATHERINE SAINT LOUIS

Wlson Greatbatch, Clarence, N.Y., Nov. 14, 2001

"People often ask me what's been the most important accomplishment in my 
life. I have 240 patents now. But I think it's that I've had the 
opportunity to speak to over a thousand fourth graders about the pacemaker. 
In 1960, I invented the implantable pacemaker. . . .

"That contraption behind me is part of our spaceship program. Spaceships of 
the future will permit passengers and crew to be in a gravity environment 
while they fly. I'm going to build a rocket that has a propulsion that will 
give an acceleration of one G. When you hit the throttle on your car, you 
feel that acceleration against the back of the seat. That's what will make 
it possible for you to walk the floor of a rocket but think you're still on 
earth.

The rockets will operate on nuclear fusion. One day we will be able to get 
halfway to Mars in 25 hours. . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 10 08:29:14 2001
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:24:12 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Guy making fusion rocket
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> See:  http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/09/magazine/09WTWT.html
> Interview of Wilson Greatbatch

The article relates to his work with 3He fusion - and Greatbatch does
deserve some degree of credit for getting this technology rolling (along
with Bussard), though despite his age, he was far from the first to consider
the potential of aneutronic fusion.

BTW, Miley of CF fame is reportedly hard at work on a 3He fusor(IEC).
Several months ago, I posted to vortex on some of the other work going on in
3He IEC but Greatbatch does not appear to be on the cutting edge - at least
in what has been published.

Some background on this niche field:
Even before the first moon rocks were brought back and found to contain
surprisingly large amounts of 3He, inventors have been thinking about and
working with concepts for using this alternative fuel. The fusion of
deuterium and tritium is much easier to accomplish but the problems of
reactor damage from energetic neutrons may never be worked out work out,
especially for mobile power implementations.

In contrast to D+T, deuterium + helium3 is a source of nearly aneutronic
fusion, which means not only the reactants can be fully contained by magnets
but some of the ash can be released though the magnets at a predetermined
vector to provide either propulsion or electrical energy without polluting
nearby space. The fuel is non-radioactive, the process produces little
radioactivity, and the residue produces little radioactivity so shielding is
greatly reduced, which is a necessity for space travel.

It is would be a near perfect energy source, except for the rarity of 3He -
on earth that is - plus the fact that the D+He reaction takes place at 10
times the temperature of D+T. But there is an order of magnitude more 3He on
the moon than our total historical inventory of fossil fuels, and Greatbatch
believes that just one shuttle load could supply the total US energy needs
for a whole year. The shuttle load would have a cost of about 25 billion
dollars, which would equate in energy to oil at $7 per barrel, according to
one of Greatbatch's lectures, but this figure seems very dated.

Even garage inventors can have success in this field, and that is part of
its allure. From the photo in the NYT article, it is obvious that despite
its size, Greatbatch's reactor may be relatively primitive. Note the only
power supply in view appears to be batteries ;-}  OTOH, many lone
experimenters have built small compact fusors, and a fusor (IEC device) is
potentially capable of this kind of fusion. Here is a link from a University
lab that stated off with a rather crude Farnsworth fusor just a few years
back:
http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/iec/Publications/Reports/Murali/murali1.htm

There are some really cool fusor sites on the Web these days, so even if CF
doesn't make it, don't rule out a major energy breakthrough from the lone
inventor or underfunded lab - and certainly don't rule out Miley. If he
pulls it off, there could be a number of ripple effects for many neglected
alternative energy ideas.

Jones Beene

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Subject: Some taxpayers like "absolute garbage," and some like CF
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This is off topic, and I really have no opinion about the NCA, but I would 
like to point out something people do not think about often. thomas malloy 
wrote:

>Mandatory wealth redistribution programs produce waste. No finer example 
>of this can be found than our National Council of the Arts. They have 
>bankrolled absolute garbage in the name of art.

The NCA says, and I believe, that nearly all of the money goes to 
completely uncontroversial art such symphony orchestras and the 
fast-food-style restaurant graphics you see at airports. A small fraction 
goes to highly controversial art that most people would consider "absolute 
garbage." (I might agree, if I saw it.) For example, funds might have been 
used for the infamous homosexual pornographic photographs by Maplethorpe. 
There are, in the U.S., many homosexuals and others who want to see these 
pictures, and who consider them important fine art. These people pay taxes. 
If the government is going to subsidize good art for the majority, I see no 
reason why it should not also subsidize dreadful art for a minority, as 
long as the funding is more or less proportional to the size of the audience.

To pull this back on topic, the same principle should apply to government 
supported research. No doubt, 99.99% of physicists would agree with the DoE 
and the APS that that cold fusion is "absolute garbage." However, there is 
a coherent group of certifiably professional scientists who think CF is 
worth investigating. Therefore, it seems to me, 0.01% of energy research 
funding should go to CF -- assuming the government pays for any energy 
research at all.

Malloy might argue that the government should not do any energy research. 
There is something to be said for that argument -- I sometimes agree. On 
the other hand, the government has done a lot of R&D in the past, and most 
of it has been fabulously successful. As I have pointed out, nearly every 
example of big ticket, large scale technology was invented by the 
government, or propped up in the critical early phases by the government. 
It may not fit our economic theories or ideology, but government research 
does seem to be highly effective overall, and as a pragmatist, I hate to 
change a successful system just because my economic theory predicts it 
should not work. Malloy writes, "Mandatory wealth redistribution programs 
produce waste." That is true, of course, but so does capitalism. In the 
past 20 years it has redistributed  nearly all of the wealth of nation into 
the pockets of the top 5% of the country. I think this situation is very 
dangerous, and if uncorrected may result in another major depression, the 
way it did in 1929 - 1939. I think a modicum of pragmatic mandatory wealth 
redistribution is a good idea. I happen to a member of the top 5%, so I am 
not speaking out of jealousy or class rivalry. People like Bill Gates agree 
with me. They publicly oppose repealing the inheritance tax.


>While there are some people who are incapable of taking care of them 
>selves, the vast majority will perform once the governmental subsidity is 
>removed and it is sink or swim.

That theory has never been tested before. There has never been a time in 
Britain or the U.S. when the government did not heavily subsidize and play 
a leading role in technology. Most of the subsidies have gone to rich 
people who built railways, highways, the Internet and so on. That bothers 
me, but the system does work, and I am very conservative. I don't fix a 
system that is not broken. Countries without strong, activist central 
governments have not been notably successful, as far as I know.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 10 09:19:52 2001
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Subject: The quest for O/U
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The quest for O/U has existed since the early 1900's and it has been
observed by such parties as Tesla, Keely, Moray, Pons and Flieschmann and
numerous others.  This is reality.  However, none of the experimenters who
have observed O/U have ever perfected a device that an independent
laboratory or peer group could verify.  On this, everyone should agree.

This brings up an issue that must be addressed - What allowed the original
experimenter to observe the O/U in the first place?  Following this - What
prevented the experimenter from being able to replicate it on an 100% basis?
Finally -- What prevented others from being able to replicate the O/U
observation that was observed by the original experimenter?

The simple answer would be -- The original experimenter never observed O/U
and was either fooled by miscalculations or was totally fraudulent in his
claims! In many cases, I believe this to be the truth. However, there a
portion of the historical observations that appear genuine (even though they
can not be replicated today).

Follow me on this for a minute -- and allow us to assume that there are at
least a portion of the devices constructed that do produce O/U for their
developer and they fail replication by others.  This narrows down the issue
of where the O/U originates.  Fundamentally, there is only one
possibility -- the experiment is being driven by the experimenter.

This is not as outlandish as it seems, for how many people have
attempted to replicate experiments that were known to work (again, Tesla,
Keely, Moray, Pons and Flieschmann and others)?  We know that there have
been hundreds if not thousands of attempts to replicate these events.

My quest was to determine why these O/U and other type of experiments work
for some and fail for others.  Continuing, my quest included other specific
areas such as -- transmutation, and other events......  In my opinion, there
had to be a common denominator.

The common denominator is:

It was the experimenter that allowed the experiment to work and not the
experiment itself.  Understanding this, my next position was to build the
mathematical models as to what allowed the experimenter to control the
experiment.  This was accomplished in the past 2 years.  Once the
mathematical models were completed, I went forward to test them by building
the empirical model.  This is working in our internal production of precious
metals.

Once this was completed, we attempted to utilize the model on several other
esoteric events.

Next, we have utilized the empirical model in attempting to control and/or
influence different O/U devices in various parts of the world.  This is also
working.

The bottom line being -- we have had tremendous success in the development
of a protoplasmic cell that is monitored by a computer  that can effectuate
the same conditions as those created by the experimenters that have observed
and controlled O/U and other esoteric events.  In addition, we can (and
have) controlled events in various parts of the world -- on demand.  These
events were monitored direct from my computer.

This is why I can state with certainty that the answers we have found are
absolute in nature, for at this time we have gained near perfect results in
performing, or allowing devices to perform. We are never close or even in
the same town as the device.

Joe Champion

View the New Reality!
www.transmutation.com Email: jchampion citlink.net



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 10 11:17:45 2001
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Joe Champion wrote:

> The quest for O/U has existed since the early 1900's and it has been
> observed by such parties as Tesla, Keely, Moray, Pons and Flieschmann and
> numerous others.  This is reality.  However, none of the experimenters who
> have observed O/U have ever perfected a device that an independent
> laboratory or peer group could verify.  On this, everyone should agree.

I for one do not agree.  The Pons-Fleischmann has been duplicated many times by
various laboratories when they were given or obtained suitable palladium.  In
addition, I have developed a method to apply Pd and other materials to the
cathode surface that has a success rate of about 50%.

The Case and the Arata methods have now been duplicated when they were
attempted by other laboratories.

>
>
> This brings up an issue that must be addressed - What allowed the original
> experimenter to observe the O/U in the first place?  Following this - What
> prevented the experimenter from being able to replicate it on an 100% basis?
> Finally -- What prevented others from being able to replicate the O/U
> observation that was observed by the original experimenter?

I have answered this question in my latest review of the P-F method.

>
>
> The simple answer would be -- The original experimenter never observed O/U
> and was either fooled by miscalculations or was totally fraudulent in his
> claims! In many cases, I believe this to be the truth. However, there a
> portion of the historical observations that appear genuine (even though they
> can not be replicated today).
>
> Follow me on this for a minute -- and allow us to assume that there are at
> least a portion of the devices constructed that do produce O/U for their
> developer and they fail replication by others.  This narrows down the issue
> of where the O/U originates.  Fundamentally, there is only one
> possibility -- the experiment is being driven by the experimenter.

The other possibility is that the experiment is being driven by the nature of
the material being used.  Obviously the required special material is rare and
hard to make, especially because we do not yet know its characteristics.

>
>
> This is not as outlandish as it seems, for how many people have
> attempted to replicate experiments that were known to work (again, Tesla,
> Keely, Moray, Pons and Flieschmann and others)?  We know that there have
> been hundreds if not thousands of attempts to replicate these events.
>
> My quest was to determine why these O/U and other type of experiments work
> for some and fail for others.  Continuing, my quest included other specific
> areas such as -- transmutation, and other events......  In my opinion, there
> had to be a common denominator.
>
> The common denominator is:
>
> It was the experimenter that allowed the experiment to work and not the
> experiment itself.  Understanding this, my next position was to build the
> mathematical models as to what allowed the experimenter to control the
> experiment.  This was accomplished in the past 2 years.  Once the
> mathematical models were completed, I went forward to test them by building
> the empirical model.  This is working in our internal production of precious
> metals.
>
> Once this was completed, we attempted to utilize the model on several other
> esoteric events.

I have no idea how a mathematical model can be developed before the important
variables are known.  Such a model is only a short-hand way to show the
relationship between variables.  It conveys no additional information.  What
variables do you plan to use and how have these been shown to be important?

>
>
> Next, we have utilized the empirical model in attempting to control and/or
> influence different O/U devices in various parts of the world.  This is also
> working.
>
> The bottom line being -- we have had tremendous success in the development
> of a protoplasmic cell that is monitored by a computer  that can effectuate
> the same conditions as those created by the experimenters that have observed
> and controlled O/U and other esoteric events.  In addition, we can (and
> have) controlled events in various parts of the world -- on demand.  These
> events were monitored direct from my computer.
>
> This is why I can state with certainty that the answers we have found are
> absolute in nature, for at this time we have gained near perfect results in
> performing, or allowing devices to perform. We are never close or even in
> the same town as the device.

Amazing!  Tell me more.  Can you get my cells to work on command?

Ed Storms

>
>
> Joe Champion
>
> View the New Reality!
> www.transmutation.com Email: jchampion citlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 10 11:22:43 2001
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> Amazing!  Tell me more.  Can you get my cells to work on command?
> 
> Ed Storms


Whenever you are ready Ed 


Joe Champion

View the New Reality!
www.transmutation.com Email: jchampion citlink.net



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 10 15:28:34 2001
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Subject: Segway Internal Details. 
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:33:55 -0500
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Hi Vort.

Here's some details about what's inside Dean Kamens 
Scooter.

http://www.eet.com/story/OEG20011207S0097

I found it interesting that redundancy reached
right to the stator, which was wound to
provide two separate circuits. Also,
a 40MIPs TI DSP is used for calculating motor drive,
from 5 gyroscopes and 2 tilt sensors.

I watched the video demo of the device; a
fine substitute for walking but of course
I have legs so it seems more a luxury item
than a necessity. Will Dean be able to
get the product out of the "Sharper Image Catalog"
market? Hmmm...

K.







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Subject: Segway's assault on walking
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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Segway's assault on walking

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/12/07/segway/index.html?x


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You can throw it in the back of the SUV, so
as to avoid walking from the parking lot to the
supermarket. Which of course is less than a mile
away from your house...

I noticed the inventor is wearing a flashy
new blue helmet, along with his signature
green army jacket. He must be one of those 
NEA fundin', Mapplethorpe appreciatin',
commie pinko liberals. Or maybe he's
just concerned about protecting his
head... 

I could really get with a large city
where this was the only vehicular traffic.
I don't see how it can compete with
cars though, and sufficient 
segway traffic on already
crowded sidewalks here would be 
a real hazard for peds.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene F. Mallove [mailto:editor infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 11:11 PM
To: vortex l eskimo.com
Subject: Segway's assault on walking


Segway's assault on walking

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/12/07/segway/index.html?x


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"You will never rest easy in your beds until the Palestines can rest easy 
in theirs."

Osama bin Laden, shorty after Sep 11th.

You're right about the Middle-class though - it's just that they get their 
SUPPORT from those with nothing - who have but their time, and possibly 
their own lives as something they definately can give.  Without supporters, 
OBL would be nothing.

Stephen.

8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB.  Tel 01223 564373

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Subject: Re: Some taxpayers like "absolute garbage," and some like CF
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
<snip>

> Malloy might argue that the government should not do any energy research.
> There is something to be said for that argument -- I sometimes agree. On
> the other hand, the government has done a lot of R&D in the past, and most
> of it has been fabulously successful. As I have pointed out, nearly every
> example of big ticket, large scale technology was invented by the
> government, or propped up in the critical early phases by the government.
> It may not fit our economic theories or ideology, but government research
> does seem to be highly effective overall, and as a pragmatist, I hate to
> change a successful system just because my economic theory predicts it
> should not work.

I think the rush to the pork barrel muddies the water here, with contenders
giving spurious reasons to justify their position at the head of the line.
The plain, conservative, fact is that one has to amass resources --
facilities, people -- to attempt large scale projects with no immediate
commercial return. These amassed resources are called capital, and you risk
it in expectationof reward -- such as the survival of your nation, or
knowledge of benefit to your progeny (the Apollo Program). Some may remember
a Heinlein story --"The Man Who Sold the Moon", about an entrepreneur who
used every commercial gimmick -- including spraying the moon with a powder
so it would show the Coca-Cola logo -- to get the money for the first moon
mission.

Jed's economics predicts long term failure for such projects, because they
do not efficiently punish unproductive people and reward productive and
ingenious ones such as Gates (to choose an unpopular example), or Jed
himself, who is a  software entrepreneur whose personal success has given
him the means to make years of study and useful contribtuions to the CF
community.

Malloy writes, "Mandatory wealth redistribution programs
> produce waste." That is true, of course, but so does capitalism. In the
> past 20 years it has redistributed  nearly all of the wealth of nation
into
> the pockets of the top 5% of the country.

I think Jed and perhaps others have a significant confusion here -- at least
there is a point worth examining carefully and I will not be suprised if
much discussion ensues. Some years ago, I saw an estimate that if the wealth
of all perons inthe US with assets of $1 million and over were confiscated
and residtributed to all the citizens, that each person would receive -----
$4,000. the number may be higher now. That number is paltry and would not
change the life condition of any but the most frugal, ingenious, and hard
working citizens who would persuade others to invest their molehills of
money into an entrprise to provide services and goods -- in other words,
become businessmen.

Control of large corporations falls into the hands of very well paid
professional managers, but they do not "own" the company. Ownership diffuses
through stock ownership into probably half the population, or more, through
life insurance policies, pension funds, mutual funds, and owener-directed
stock investments. These various funds theselves have well-paid managers,
and the managers of all this money may form an oligarchy of control
concentrated into a few hands. The rush to the pork barrel includes the
"liberals" who would like to control these collective assets through
"public" funds (controlled by them) in the "public interest". It also
inclused the conservative industrialists who see their interest in serving
the "consumers" through a "market economy" as their justification for
control. We are all passengers on this merry-go-round and the spinning is
enough to make one dizzy.

Government tax programs hit the "middle class" because that is where the
real money is -- not the super rich (defined as snyone who makes more than
congressmen) and not the poor. There is political leverage in playing off
the poor against the rich and emphasizing the extemes of entitlement: Gates,
by virtue of being at the right place at the right time with the right
understanding -- an a starving child whose existence entitles he or she to
participation in the largess of the world.

I think this situation is very
> dangerous, and if uncorrected may result in another major depression, the
> way it did in 1929 - 1939. I think a modicum of pragmatic mandatory wealth
> redistribution is a good idea. I happen to a member of the top 5%, so I am
> not speaking out of jealousy or class rivalry. People like Bill Gates
agree
> with me. They publicly oppose repealing the inheritance tax.

In the interest of disclosure, I will state that like Jed I am also in the
top 5% by virtue of lifelong work as an engineer for a world-class
corporation and investment of a lump sum, aided by the continuing work of my
wife, a professional musician.
>
> >While there are some people who are incapable of taking care of them
> >selves, the vast majority will perform once the governmental subsidity is
> >removed and it is sink or swim.
>
> That theory has never been tested before. There has never been a time in
> Britain or the U.S. when the government did not heavily subsidize and play
> a leading role in technology. Most of the subsidies have gone to rich
> people who built railways, highways, the Internet and so on. That bothers
> me, but the system does work, and I am very conservative. I don't fix a
> system that is not broken. Countries without strong, activist central
> governments have not been notably successful, as far as I know.

And countries with a strong, activist central government have blundered into
disasters of which there are examples scattered all over the planet. There
is a balance which has to be learned, and the lessons are hard, and we are
still learning.

Mike Carrell

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Subject: Re: Segway's assault on walking
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:24:47 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>


<snip>
>
> I could really get with a large city
> where this was the only vehicular traffic.
> I don't see how it can compete with
> cars though, and sufficient
> segway traffic on already
> crowded sidewalks here would be
> a real hazard for peds.
>
> K.

There is no reason why Segway has to be a hazard for pedestrians unless
piloted by an agressive rider, the type who will elbow his way through
crowds. Unlike a bicycle, it is stable at rest and any crawling speed above
rest. In Mahattan, traffic often moves at a walking pace and I have seen
skateboarders and bicyclists snake their way through the traffic. Segways
could do the same, but of course cars and motorcycles can get up to speed
faster than Segways.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 11 07:13:27 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Riding a Segway
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A first-hand description. See:

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/epaper/editions/sunday/metro_c321cf5721bd329700fb.html

"No joke: Scooter could be Atlanta's ticket to ride"


By the way, when I sent this message with the title "First hand description 
of riding a Segway," Vortex unsubscribed me.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 11 07:41:37 2001
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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:36:57 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
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Subject: The Weinfelden Energy Conference
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I saw this URL on the Hameltech list:

http://www.guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/conference/Weinfelden/

where many new energy ideas are discussed.  One that I had not
heard of was Jean-Pierre Vigier's new energy source based on
palladium and lithium-7.  

"This is not fusion or conventional chemical energy", Vigier
stated. "It is new type of chemical energy". This new energy is
based on spin-spin and spin-orbit couplings. Vigier has suggested
developing economic and clean Li-7 energy techniques instead of
constructing more fossil or nuclear energy production in France.

<end quote>

I wonder if the 200+ page report is worth $25 + shipping?

Terry

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From: "Terry Blanton" <commengr bellsouth.net>
Subject: The Weinfelden Energy Conference


> ....This new energy is
> based on spin-spin and spin-orbit couplings.

If you want some input on a theory of how this could happen, i.e. "massless"
spin energy conversion, check out Brian Fraser's site at:
http://www.dancris.com/~bfraser/qm/issues.html

The Vigier work sounds very interesting - and as he occasionally posts on
vortex, perhaps he will expand on it - or maybe IE will pick up on the whole
report and publish the relevant material ?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 11 10:11:39 2001
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Subject: White LED lamps are impressive
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I recently saw a white LED flashlight driven by a 9-volt battery, in an 
aviation supply store here at the airport. The amount of light it produces 
and the life of the bulb is very impressive. See this commercial web site:

http://www.theledlight.com/

Fluorescent lights are three to four times more efficient than incandescent 
lights, and they last 10,000 hours. White LEDs are about ten times more 
efficient than incandescent bulbs, last for 100,000 hours, and produce a 
pleasing, full spectrum of light. The use of these bulbs in every U.S. 
house would reduce the demand for electricity by 82 billion kWH (1993 
estimate), or more than all residential electricity consumed in California 
(74 billion kWh in 1999). Total U.S. generation in 2000 was 3,010 billion kWh.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/lighting/execsum.html#begin

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/tab0803.htm

Estimates of total electricity used in lighting, commercial and domestic, 
range from 9 to 14%, but that seems high compared to the total generation 
shown in other sources. Most commercial lighting is already fluorescent, so 
savings from white LED would not be as dramatic as in residential lighting.

I have noticed large red LED in use in traffic lights in New England. One 
source says there are 3 to 4.5 million traffic signals in the U.S., they 
use 3 billion kWH, and LED replacement lights are increasingly popular. 
Turn signal arrows are particularly efficient, because conventional signals 
use stencils, blocking out light, where the LED version has lamps arranged 
in the shape of an arrow. (Minor details like that can make have a large 
aggregate effect.)

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cbecs/profile.html#lit-type2

http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=question178.htm&url=http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/Ltgtrans/LED/led-links.html

- Jed

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Subject: RE: Segway's assault on walking
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:46:00 -0500
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>There is no reason why Segway has to be a hazard for pedestrians unless
>piloted by an agressive rider, the type who will elbow his way through
>crowds. Unlike a bicycle, it is stable at rest and any crawling speed above
>rest. In Mahattan, traffic often moves at a walking pace and I have seen
>skateboarders and bicyclists snake their way through the traffic. Segways
>could do the same, but of course cars and motorcycles can get up to speed
>faster than Segways.
>Mike Carrell

That's exactly my point, Mike.

You mention Manhattan, an excellent test bed for the new
tech. First, imagine walking the length of 42nd st.
without bumping someone. Now imagine doing it where say
25% of the people are using segways. Agressive riders?
I mean really, what other kind are there? Do you
walk the streets here? I always find it funny when
out-of-towners come here for the first time, and
walk the sidewalk EXPECTING that people will leave
enough space for them to walk, or better still expecting
that they can stop and chat in the street without
repercussion. Take your typical java fuelled cell phone
yakking yuppie rushing to work, put him or her on a
segway on the sidewalk, and the term "road rage" takes
on a whole new meaning (grin).

I think a good example of what COULD happen with segways
is what occurs with baby strollers. I've seen mothers
jam them into subway doors to prevent them from closing,
use them as rams to push other peds out of the way, and
block major ped paths with them. All with baby aboard.
Now leave out the baby, and see what happens...

Me, I plan on dealing with the eventual street conflict
by carrying a small spark gap transmitter. Run over my
foot with that thing, and you'll be in for a quick
lesson about the fragility of fly by wire systems,
even with redundant backup.

Actually, I think the segway looks like a lot of fun,
and would consider buying one as a luxury item. I just
fear the results of a lot of these things in the
hands of the people I live with here. As I said earlier,
I could really get with a NYC where cars were
banned from the streets. Then we could have segways,
bikes and skateboards, which should mix just fine,
on the street, where they probably should be.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 11 13:35:13 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Segway's assault on walking
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>As I said earlier, I could really get with a NYC where cars were banned 
>from the streets.

They should have been banned 50 years ago, if you ask me. From NYC, Boston, 
Washington, Tokyo and most other cities. To be precise, parking should have 
been banned. Taxicabs and jitneys would do the job a lot faster and more 
cheaply for everyone.

Traffic jams are a classic example of a "tragedy of the commons." This is 
where people grab a "free" resource (urban road space, in this case), in a 
free-for-all that destroys the value of the resource. An effective way to 
ban street parking would be to charge people what it is worth. In other 
words, charge whatever parking garages in NYC take, $5 to $50 I guess, 
depending on how long you stay. This would have been difficult 50 years ago 
with parking meter technology, but it should be a cinch nowadays, with the 
kind of dashboard transponders they use to pay tolls.

Free market solutions can make things like traffic jams go away, to 
everyone's benefit. I do not understand why they have not been implemented. 
Furthermore, I do not understand why the people who object to such 
solutions most loudly are often self-styled "conservatives" who praise 
capitalism and think it should be applied to everyone but  themselves. 
Lately, there has been some talk about converting HOV highway lanes to toll 
lanes for people in a hurry (or combined HOV/Toll lanes), and also varying 
bridge and highway tolls by the time of day. That's a good idea, I think. 
Also, new power meters in California and elsewhere will charge lots more 
for peak-hour electricity. To put it another way you can dry your clothes 
at night and save money.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 12 08:15:14 2001
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Subject: Environmentalist organization attacks coal subsidies, fusion
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See:

http://www.foe.org/eco/scissors99/energy.html#clean

Policy statements like this show that the distinction between 
"conservatives" and "liberals" is artificial, and oversimplified.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 12 13:45:39 2001
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Subject: Lomborg versus environmentalists
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There is a lively debate going on in the newspapers and elsewhere betwen 
Bjorn Lomborg, author of "The Skeptical Environmentalist," and the 
environmentalist movement. For the environmentalist side, see:

http://www.gristmagazine.com/grist/books/lomborg121201.asp?source=daily

I myself come down somewhere in the middle, but I lean toward the 
environmentalists because of personal experiences similar to this one, 
described by an anti-Lomborg author:

"Forty-five years ago, I lived in a village in central India on the Deccan 
plateau. To reach the village, I had to travel from the nearest train 
station for hours on a dirt road in a bullock cart through heavily forested 
terrain. Like many other parts of India, the forests in this region have 
now largely disappeared, replaced in some cases by cropland, but more often 
by wasteland. One wonders if Lomborg has traveled in developing countries." 
- Lester R. Brown, founder and president of the Earth Policy Institute

The environmental destruction that bothers me is what I can see myself, on 
the eastern seaboard wetlands and mountains between Georgia and 
Pennsylvania, where I have driven, hiked and bicycled all my life. No one 
can tell *me* the destruction is not real or it does not matter. In 
colonial times, English people described this part of the world as a second 
Garden of Eden. Of course much of it still is, but the highways, shopping 
malls and population pressure have taken their toll. And the thing is -- it 
does not have to be this way! There is no benefit to unbridled urban sprawl 
and throwaway cities. With a small change in attitude, the right technology 
and a modicum of population control in places like Mexico where our new 
population comes from, I am convinced we can put things back the way they 
were. But we have to have the will to do it. We have to realize there is a 
problem, and things could be better. It bothers me most to think of 
children growing up who never know what they have missed.

I wish the environmental movement would pay more attention to here-and-now, 
visible problems that affect people, such as air pollution, instead of 
emphasizing distant problems like global warming. Not that global warming 
isn't important, but it is hard to convince people it is real, and to 
mobilize a movement to prevent something decades in the future.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 12 13:48:51 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Lomborg versus environmentalists & CF advocates
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Regarding the articles at:

http://www.gristmagazine.com/grist/books/lomborg121201.asp?source=daily

. . . the one on energy should be read by people campaigning for CF and 
other alternatives. As the author says, the problem is not that we are 
running out of oil, it is that we have too much for our own good. You 
should not try to sell CF as a solution to fossil fuel energy shortages, 
because there are no such shortages, and there may not be for decades. I 
wish there were! -- except for the harm it would cause poor people.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 12 15:40:46 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: LED inventor now in U.S. - a sad story
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Yesterday I was rooting around for more information on LED traffic lights, 
and I checked some sources in Japan. Here is an interesting follow-up human 
interest story about that.

Shuji Nakamura invented the blue light LED. He is one of Japan's great 
modern scientists. He recently moved to California, and he is alienated 
from Japanese society. He sees little hope for progress in Japan as things 
now stand. Here is an interview in English:

www.japaninc.net/mag/comp/2001/07/jul01_blue.html

He has written a book, which I will read as soon as I can get a copy: 
"Ikari no burekusuruu," ('Break Through With Anger,') Shueisha, April 2001, 
ISBN: 4834250520.

In my opinion, the problems he describes are the root cause of Japan's 
lingering economic malaise. In the 1980s people predicted that Japan would 
become an economic powerhouse, surpassing the U.S. I thought it might, but 
I figured it would first undergo major social changes, as it has 
periodically in the last 150 years. I thought the people of my generation, 
such as Nakamura, were primed to change things. They were not, unfortunately.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 12 18:59:32 2001
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 04:54:30 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Jed, thank you for this article. I am following Nakamura's story for a long time.

I think laws can be made to protect employee's, contractee's intellectual creations rights against companies, contractors. Transferring rights of a creation would require an explicit agreement over a specific creation, a employee would not be allowed to s
ign agreement over rights of future intellectual creations that he/she produce. Even law can be made to prevent total transfer of rights, that the creator, the native owner of rights is always recognized.

For example, a music label could never have full rights of a song, but the creator of the song should have. Creators should have non transferable rights over creations 
A publisher could never ban an author to exhibit his work somewhere else, a music label could never ban a band perform a song somewhere else. This could be also applicable for engineers, hardware and software. Law should ensure any patentable item is natu
rally owned by its creator. Agreements should be limited on licensing, not on full rights. 

I think so, because creations are inseparatable pieces of mind, of human, which is a free (unbound) entity in essence.  

Maybe this issue could not be solved in asimple way, but the legal system should make difference between rights of individuals and corperations.


Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Yesterday I was rooting around for more information on LED traffic lights,
> and I checked some sources in Japan. Here is an interesting follow-up human
> interest story about that.
> 
> Shuji Nakamura invented the blue light LED. He is one of Japan's great
> modern scientists. He recently moved to California, and he is alienated
> from Japanese society. He sees little hope for progress in Japan as things
> now stand. Here is an interview in English:
> 
> www.japaninc.net/mag/comp/2001/07/jul01_blue.html
> 
> He has written a book, which I will read as soon as I can get a copy:
> "Ikari no burekusuruu," ('Break Through With Anger,') Shueisha, April 2001,
> ISBN: 4834250520.
> 
[snip]

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 12 20:45:16 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, thomas malloy <temalloy@metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Off topic: Redistributing wealth
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:44:16 -0500
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On Sunday 09 December 2001 12:28 pm, thomas malloy wrote:
> >It seems to me that wealth redistribution is a form of safety
> >measure, could easily be used as an "anti-terrorism" measure.  It's
> >just self-defence really.  You do it because you don't want anyone's
> >creativity to be stifled by lack of access to resources.  If people
> >feel neglected because they fell "you" are unjustly witholding
> >things, "they" usually end up throwing bombs at "you" sooner or
> >later.
> >
> >Stephen.
> >
> >8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB.  Tel 01223
> > 564373
>
> I just can't let this go unchallenged. The people who throw bombs are
> sions of the middle class. No finer example of this can be had than
> the people who blew up the World Trade Center, and headed up El
> Quita. All were raised comfortably middle class. Mandatory wealth
> redistribution programs produce waste. No finer example of this can
> be found than our National Council of the Arts. They have bankrolled
> absolute garbage in the name of art. IMHO, good art will fund itself.
> While there are some people who are incapable of taking care of them
> selves, the vast majority will perform once the governmental
> subsidity is removed and it is sink or swim.

Yeah, and how about 'corporate welfare.....Chrysler....Archer Daniels
Midland........our monopoly 'airline industry'.  Better we fund Amtrak
and the Postal Service as services and not a 'businesses'.

Here we go again.  ...Methinks you meant 'scions' instead of 'sions'; 
and 'Al Qaeda' instead of 'El Quita' [Spanish influence?].  The way
'El Quita' is jumping from cave to cave sounds more appropriate now
though.  Our Social Security and welfare programs are from our
depression of the 1930's, when Earl Browder, the candidate of the
Communist Party of the United States polled over  several MILLION
votes in the election of 1932.  This scared the wits out of 'Wall
Street' enough to shut up and approve of the remedy or we would
have LOST this country, legal at the ballot box!  
	I tend to sympathize
wiht Stephen;  if that makes me socialist then so be it.  Government
is here to improve the lives of the governed.  Any other purpose
is at cross purposes with humanity.  It is why we pay taxes.  Willingly!
Too much history looks down at the failures of  Adam Smith and his
sycophantic latter day dogmatic fawners who would choke on a gnat
while swallowing a camel!  Contrast the above writer's comparing
some bad art with the good that real programs like Social Security
have brought to millions of people.  Let no one decieve you, Social
Security is the only real retirement that most people ever get!
.  One only need look to recent
history at Chile.  We had a democratically elected  President, Salvatore
Allende, assasinated in order bring to power Augusto Pinochet.  This
dictator was a tool used to implement the fatally flawed theories of
a crackpot, Milton Friedman......by brutal force.  It was probably a
laboratory test case to see if the people would take it,  if it could work,
and if it could be applied in similar fashion to us here in the United
States.  Thousands of 'desaparacido's' have never been heard of
again.  Millions were thrown into economic misery that they are just
today starting to climb out of.  Pinochet is running from the Chilean
courts, and the authors of the whole fiasco are hoping that he is
never made to testify and possibly implicate them.  Many of the guilty
are here in the United States.  
	They call themselves 'republicans'
mostly.  Look at their ideas.  For a 'business' party they propose that
old people should have had their Social Security money invested
in the STOCK MARKET!  Yeah!  Right!  Like the NASDAQ that
has lost over 75 PERCENT of its value over the last couple of years.
Take a good look at 'Enron'.  This jewel of wall street went from
60 dollars to 60 CENTS in less than two years, and it was NO
accident.  The executives benefited mightily all along the way.
Some of the worthies associated with this fiasco have been
reported to have been  the president's
family and many other high political figures now in power,
including members of the president's cabinet who were former Enron
executives.   The victims are the employees who were dragooned
by employment contracts into 'investing' in the now failed
'401k' plan of stock purchases that now have no value.
I suppose the first writer would say that 'those people had a choice!
or some other rhetorical flattulence.  Betcha he'd howl like hell
if somebody cheated him at poker.
Tales abound of stock manipulation by shadowy combinations
of insiders that the SEC will never pursue much less catch
They also propose arrests and searches without warrant, secret
trials without jury or defense lawyers or witnesses, kangaroo courts
without unanimous conviction beyond shadow of a doubt, Napoleonic
Code burden of proof on the arrestee......
   we could go on and on.  Heck we did not even elect this government.
The Supreme Court did!  Old 5 to 4 sits in the White House.  He
is now my 'Commander in Chief' and I will support our government
like a good soldier,   but in 2004 I will be able to vote again....
I hope.  Government bad eh!?  GOD save us all from 'private [monopoly]
enterprise'!

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 07:58:21 2001
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: LED inventor now in U.S. - a sad story
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>Jed posted;
>
>Shuji Nakamura invented the blue light LED. He is one of Japan's 
>great modern scientists. He recently moved to California, and he is 
>alienated from Japanese
I was just thinking about this issue today. This was in reference to 
the post about the government's funding of research. At one point it 
appeared that the Japanese with their cooperation between government 
and industry were going to eat out lunches. Well, things didn't turn 
out that way did they?

>
>He has written a book, which I will read as soon as I can get a 
>copy: "Ikari no burekusuruu," ('Break Through With Anger,') 
>Shueisha, April 2001, ISBN: 4834250520.

Why the anger?

>
>In my opinion, the problems he describes are the root cause of 
>Japan's lingering economic malaise.

What is this cause? They work hard and save their money, We work 
hard, but we play hard too, and the average American burns up lots of 
material. In the end the only explanation I can come up with is that 
the Japanese society is even more stratified in terms of the rich 
wanting to keep what they have, particularly in terms of economic 
power than this country. The Japanese are experts on taking our 
research and mass marketing it. There has been no shortage on 
innovative new products, and no shortage of raw materials to make 
them out of too.

>  In the 1980s people predicted that Japan would become an economic 
>powerhouse, surpassing the U.S. I thought it might, but I figured it 
>would first undergo major social changes, as it has periodically in 
>the last 150 years.


If they don't do it, I don't know who will.

>I thought the people of my generation, such as Nakamura, were primed 
>to change things. They were not, unfortunately.

I don't understand why the Japanese small businesses were bankrupted, 
were they sacrificed to maintain the large corporations?

Thank you for posting the URL about the LED bulbs. Unfortunately the 
prices for a bulb which would produce the equivalent light of a 75 to 
100 Watt bulb  are just too expensive to be practical at this time.

>

--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 08:07:08 2001
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Subject: Handy energy information from CIA
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These statistics seem solid to me:

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/hies97/f/f.htm

http://www.odci.gov/cia/di/products/hies/index.html

For more detailed information, see:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/

This is extensive, and mostly accurate, but the breakdown is inconsistent 
and I have discovered some numbers for wind energy that do not agree with 
other sources.

If someone knows a reliable percent of actual compared to "nameplate" power 
ratings for most wind turbines, I would appreciate hearing from you. 
Estimates range from 10% to 66%. It is amazing how much misinformation and 
disinformation is circulated about subjects such as this. A nuclear power 
shill claimed the number is 4%, and he made several other claims that must 
be false, since windpower sells for $0.04 per kWh, as everyone in the 
industry agrees it does. See:

http://www.energyadvocate.com/den_post.htm

Needless to say, anti-nuclear people also circulate absurd claims and 
propaganda about the dangers of uranium, but they do not have to exaggerate 
as much to score points.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 08:17:35 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: LED inventor now in U.S. - a sad story
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thomas malloy wrote:

>At one point it appeared that the Japanese with their cooperation between 
>government and industry were going to eat out lunches. Well, things didn't 
>turn out that way did they?

Not yet, anyway. History is not over.


>In the end the only explanation I can come up with is that the Japanese 
>society is even more stratified in terms of the rich wanting to keep what 
>they have, particularly in terms of economic power than this country.

That's incorrect. The gap between social classes is much smaller in Japan 
than in the U.S. The U.S. is now approaching historic record high ratios, 
not seen since before the great depression. This is a dangerous trend in an 
economy that depends on mass market consumption. There is no point to 
manufacturing goods when people cannot afford to buy them.

As Nakamura points out, the problem in Japan is more or less the opposite 
of a class gap. Things are too "communistic," as he puts it. Innovators are 
not rewarded enough. Perhaps they are rewarded a little too much in the U.S.


>Thank you for posting the URL about the LED bulbs. Unfortunately the 
>prices for a bulb which would produce the equivalent light of a 75 to 100 
>Watt bulb  are just too expensive to be practical at this time.

That's true, but there is no fundamental reason why the price will not fall 
rapidly. LEDs do not require exotic materials or difficult manufacturing 
techniques. At present, the high price limits them niche markets, but the 
profits from sales in these markets should be reinvested, bringing the cost 
down. This has been the pattern with new technology. As I said in my 
article about CF economics:

First a toy, then a luxury, then a necessity

This should be warning to people who are thinking of investing in companies 
making incandescent lights or selling electricity.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 09:40:55 2001
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I realize that this is way off topic, but I look at it as a 
continuation of the discussion that Standing Bear and I are having in 
the previous post.

>X-Sender: bailey padrak.com
>Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:28:36 -0800
>To: pgb padrak.com (BCC: FOL & FOL2 Send Lists)
>From: Patrick Bailey <pgb padrak.com>
>Subject: FWD: RED LIST PICKUPS!!!!
>
>FWD: RED LIST PICKUPS!!!!
>
>Mike, Take this and run with it.....
>
>FROM: AL CUPPETT (While they still let me operate this method of commo.)
>
>US Army/The Joint Staff (OJCS), Retired
>
>TO: ALL INDIVIDUALS CONCERNED ABOUT RED LIST PICK UPS
>
>I, with them Lord's help, broke the "code" on the Red-Blue List in 1995.
>It was later confirmed to Steve Q. and Steve C. in 1996! A resident of
>VA was shown a copy of the "Region Three Blue List" by an FBI agent. The
>list had been given to him by a "loyalist" CIA agent who had made the
>initial "intercept". The CIA agent saw his FBI buddy's name on the list!
>The FBI agent than saw Steve C.'s name on the list, and showed it to
>him. And so on down the line.
>
>Steve saw his name, his son (1) James' name, (2) "Richard's" name, and
>(3) "Jim's" name. They are the only ones he saw that he recognized. The
>names had no addresses, only SSN's!!!! Therefore, as noted below, they
>will use SSNs.
>
>(1) James is a two-hitch veteran of the USMC, Infantry, long range
>patrol, and an "activist". He has had many UN choppers over and " even
>BESIDE" his person/house.
>
>(2) Jim is an ex-Mormon with a bomb shelter house. He has experienced
>numerous passive attacks, even a noise-canceling-equipped chopper (seen
>by a friend at midnight) with a spotlight, hovering over his "house".
>
>(2) Richard is a Republican, arch conservative, businessman.
>
>Steve C is an activist and after being on SW radio was paid visit by the
>chopper about a week later. They are operating out of Camp Goetche
>(spelling may be wrong) on Quantico USMC Base, in VA (Confirmed by "Hot
>Spot" Rescue Team member) !!! Steve then had a "confrontation with one
>chopper, 40 yards away, for the radio "trouble" he had caused the NWO. I
>described it on my Prophecy Club video, "Straight from the Joint
>Chiefs". I just didn't tell anyone exactly what the "stand-off
>confrontation" consisted of in front of a live audience.
>
>The Red listed people are "arrested before unobtrusive plans for
>mobilization (martial law are initiated". That is a direct quote
>(almost, without looking) from the "book".
>
>Blue Listed people are "arrested subsequent to a declaration of martial
>law ("mobilization" in Nazi terms) ". We have determined that the arrest
>period for "Blue Listees" will be the immediate SIX weeks following a
>martial law declaration.
>
>Unfortunately, they are already pulling people our of cars in IL and MI.
>Over a month ago a police officer wrote me and told me his sis-in-law
>had seen "black uniformed police" with no insignia or logos displayed
>pulling people out of cars in SE Michigan. These would be Red Listees.
>These "cops" are using SS numbers input into their patrol car's
>computer-radio system. If the "stopees" come up "Red" they are
>handcuffed and taken away. Now I have deduced this "method" by
>professional and collateral knowledge which I have not set forth herein.
>
>Further, they were pulling people from cars north and south of
>"Wilmington, IL" during the same time period. I believe it was on Rt
>51/53. The town and the highway are from memory, not my "master station
>log" (MSL). These particular black-uniformed cops were "big and burley",
>and as usual they wear the "cool" sunglasses, stated the report; which a
>local police officer. He said the Wilmington local policemen are nowhere
>this size!
>
>This means the Red List pick ups are already going on! Road blocks are
>now being used to pick up people. There was one report from OK about a
>bus being stopped and these cops pulling people off. They carry Federal
>ID cards, issued by FEMA or the Department of State", I can't confirm which.
>
>The videos, the one mentioned above, and "Black Ops and Prophecy", can
>be obtained from the Prophecy Club, and I make nothing from those sales,
>  758 266 1112 . I think it's www.prophecyclub.com , but I'm not sure
>how you email/work it. But it is the Prophecy Club that handles them. If
>you get them watch the "Joint Chiefs" first; as they're sequential in
>nature.
>
>I'll stop here. Request addresses make maximum distribution.\\
>
>Al Cuppett
>
>P.S. Folks, don't start sending me a whole lot of second hand info. I'll
>get too bogged down to be effective.. If you have first hand info, what
>you saw yourself, you look up my phone number in Madison, VA (504 area
>code) and call me. I'll then decide the magnitude of it and how to
>handle it. Now if it gets too great a load...well we shall see....


--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 09:41:19 2001
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:40:34 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: FWD:  Nothingness:  The Science Of Empty Space
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>X-Sender: bailey padrak.com
>Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:12:37 -0800
>To: pgb padrak.com (BCC: Energy_Send_,List)
>From: Patrick Bailey <pgb padrak.com>
>Subject: FWD:  Nothingness:  The Science Of Empty Space
>
>FWD:  Thanks Remy
>
>From:
>http://www.perseuspublishing.com/focus2.asp?ISBN1=0738206105
>
>Nothingness
>The Science Of Empty Space
>By Henning Genz
>
>0-7382-0610-5
>Avail 2001-11-29
>Paperback
>352 pages
>$20.00
>Science
>
>Nothingness addresses one of the most puzzling problems of physics and
>philosophy: Does empty space have an existence independent of the matter
>within it? Is "empty space" really empty, or is it an ocean seething with
>the creation and destruction of virtual matter? With crystal-clear prose and
>more than 100 cleverly rendered illustrations, physicist Henning Genz takes
>the reader from the metaphysical speculations of the ancient Greek
>philosophers, through the theories of Newton and the early experiments of
>his contemporaries, right up to the current theories of quantum physics and
>cosmology to give us the story of one of the most fundamental and puzzling
>areas of modern physics and philosophy.
>
>Henning Genz is a professor of theoretical physics at the University of
>Karlsruhe, Germany. He is the author of the popular science book Symmetrie:
>Bauplan der Natur (Symmetry: Blueprint of Nature).
>
>Translated by Karin Heusch from the original 1994 German edition.
>Includes chapter on Zero-Point Energy.
>
>PERSEUS PUBLISHING
>11 Cambridge Center
>Cambridge, MA 02142
>email info perseuspublishing.com
>info  perseuspublishing.com
>
>To request a review copy of any Perseus Publishing title, please contact
>Tracy Holleran, Publicity Assistant, at tracy.holleran perseusbooks.com or
>via fax at 617-252-5265.


--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 09:42:20 2001
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:34:40 -0600
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Off topic: Redistributing wealth
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>Stephan wrote
>  > >It seems to me that wealth redistribution is a form of safety
>>  >measure, could easily be used as an "anti-terrorism" measure.  It's
>  > >just self-defence really.  You do it because you don't want anyone's


and I responded;

>  > I just can't let this go unchallenged. The people who throw bombs are
>>  sions of the middle class. No finer example of this can be had than
>>  the people who blew up the World Trade Center, and headed up El
>  > Quita. All were raised comfortably middle class. Mandatory wealth

And Standing Bear responded

>Yeah, and how about 'corporate welfare.....Chrysler....Archer Daniels
>Midland........our monopoly 'airline industry'.  Better we fund Amtrak
>and the Postal Service as services and not a 'businesses'.

Amtrack and the USPS are businesses, their just business 
organizations created by governmental fiat and funded by the 
taxpayer. They also pay wages and benefits which are cushy.

>
>Here we go again.  ...Methinks you meant 'scions' instead of 'sions';
>and 'Al Qaeda' instead of 'El Quita' [Spanish influence?].  The way
>'El Quita' is jumping from cave to cave sounds more appropriate now
>though.

My spelling is not the greatest, OTOH, there is no correct way to 
spell Arabic words in English.

>Our Social Security and welfare programs are from our
>depression of the 1930's, when Earl Browder, the candidate of the
>Communist Party of the United States polled over  several MILLION

SSI and welfare have been a marvelous vote generating tool for the 
Democratic Party. OTOH, IMHO, America was pulling out of the 
depression in 1932 when the people elected that Monster who 
instituted socialist policies and plunged it back into a economic 
malaise which took WW II to end. To say that I hate Franklin Rosevelt 
is too mild a term.

>history at Chile.  We had a democratically elected  President, Salvatore
>Allende, assasinated in order bring to power Augusto Pinochet.  This
>dictator was a tool used to implement the fatally flawed theories of
>a crackpot, Milton Friedman......by brutal force.  It was probably a
>laborat

>The American establishment has done some terrible things, and you 
>just sited one of them, however Dr. Friedman's theories have an 
>excellent track record.


>mostly.  Look at their ideas.  For a 'business' party they propose that
>old people should have had their Social Security money invested
>in the STOCK MARKET!  Yeah!  Right!  Like the NASDAQ that
>has lost over 75 PERCENT of its value over the last couple of years.
>Take a good look at 'Enron'.  This jewel of wall street went from
>60 dollars to 60 CENTS

This is an example of A. a stock market bubble and B. corporate 
management giving the workers a screwing. The story I heard is that 
Enron was reporting profits that were generated in a way which the 
"experts" couldn't understand. A commentator on Public Radio's Market 
Place termed their management techniques, "opaque", IMHO, that ought 
to tell you something, I assume your mother told you, "if it sounds 
too good to be true it probably is?"

>I suppose the first writer would say that 'those people had a choice!
>or some other rhetorical flattulence.  Betcha he'd howl like hell
>if somebody cheated him at poker.

My Arab attorney "friend" just screwed me out of $5000. I just look 
at it as be careful what you ask for, because you might get it.

>Tales abound of stock manipulation by shadowy combinations
>of insiders that the SEC will never pursue much less catch
>They also propose arrests and searches without warrant, secret
>trials without jury or defense lawyers or witnesses, kangaroo courts
>without unanimous conviction beyond shadow of a doubt, Napoleonic
>Code burden of proof on the arrestee..

Like any other governmental bureau the SEC has been used to screw 
people, Part of the mythos of free energy is the Ev Gray story. The 
local persecuting attorney stepped in and destroyed the company in 
the name of protecting the investors. I could write a book of well 
intentioned entrepreneurs who were destroyed by the SEC, I think that 
several people have. OTOH, human greed, and human avarice being what 
they are, such an organization is needed, it just has to be 
controlled.

>....
>    we could go on and on.  Heck we did not even elect this government.
>The Supreme Court did!  Old 5 to 4 sits in the White House.  He
>is now my 'Commander in Chief' and I will support our government
>like a good soldier,   but in 2004 I will be able to vote again....
>I hope.  Government bad eh!?  GOD save us all from 'private [monopoly]
>enterprise'!

I don't know Standing, consider the alternative. I'm sure that 
President Gore would have issued a strongly worded condemnation to 
the government of Afganistan for harboring terrorists.

  I want to emphasize however that I'm no fan of the American 
Establishment. The government is strongly influenced by what some of 
us call the invisible government, IG. Richard Hogland, 
www.enterprisemission.com has correlated their activities, they 
control NASA, with the Egyption Mystery Religion. For details of 
their latest political activities, check www.newsmax.com they have a 
large collection of books on the activities of the IG. The Prophecy 
Club, www.prophecyclub.com has an excellent collection of tapes 
addressing the IG's activities on RealAudio.

I am a proponent of the Satanic Conspiracy Paradigm which basically 
says that these people are attempting to set up a one world 
government with the belief that their God will descend from the 
heavens to complete the pyramid that they have built here on earth. 
This is expressed symbolically on the back of the Federal Reserve 
Note, which is issued by one of their more profitable enterprises, 
the Federal Reserve Bank. They have several front organizations some 
of which are the Committee on Foreign Relations, the Trilaterial 
Commission and the Builderbergers. Wayne Andraus, CEO of Archer 
Daniels Midland, is, as I recall, a member of several of these 
organizations, as is every U S president in recent history.

The trouble with you Standing, is that you confuse the actions of 
this evil clique with free enterprise and Libertarian social theory. 
Individual liberty, in addition to being part of out Judeo-Christian 
heritage, is the reason that America is such an economic powerhouse, 
and the reason that I'm free to post something like this. I do 
believe that I'm on the red list however and when they impose marshal 
law and totally take over the country, I fully expect to be hauled 
away to a death camp. It is the basis of the Austrian School of 
Economics, Dr. Friedman is an advocate, well sort of, of this school. 
If you don't like it here you need to travel, and see how people live 
elsewhere.



-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 09:51:21 2001
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:47:35 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Subject: SEGUE was: LED inventor now in U.S. - a sad story
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011212183642.02eb2960 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20011212183642.02eb2960 pop.mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011213110501.02e7f218@pop.mindspring.com>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
 
> First a toy, then a luxury, then a necessity

I think you can apply this to Segway also.

BTW, does anyone know if SEG is an ancronym; other than the
internet one (Shit Eating Grin, the look on a Segway user's
face).

Terry

se·gue 
intr.v. se·gued, se·gue·ing, se·gues 

1.Music. To make a transition directly from one section or theme
to another. 
2.To move smoothly and unhesitatingly from one state, condition,
situation, or element to another: “Daylight segued into dusk”
(Susan Dworski).

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 10:04:36 2001
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Off topic: Redistributing wealth
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I was kinda hoping that this was a scientific mailing list and not a
political one.

It does amaze me that so many people think they have a right to the work
of someone else simply becuase the profits of their efforst would make
them live better.

And the "red list", that's rather odd too.

Oh well. I do like looking at alternative theories and seeing if there is
anything too them. For some there is, for most there is not.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 10:05:15 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Borohydride vehicle
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:11:57 -0500
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Hi All.

A while back, there was some discussion about using
a borohydride to store hydrogen for fuel cell use in
vehicles and the like.

If I remember, there wasn't a lot of support here
for the idea (grin).

Apparently Chrysler has bitten the bullet and
developed some kind of test bed vehicle using
this tech. Here's the announcement.

http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/13671/story.htm

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 10:52:09 2001
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Subject: Re: LED inventor now in U.S. - a sad story
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----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>

Just some added comments:


> >Jed posted;
> >
> >Shuji Nakamura invented the blue light LED. He is one of Japan's
> >great modern scientists. He recently moved to California, and he is
> >alienated from Japanese
> I was just thinking about this issue today. This was in reference to
> the post about the government's funding of research. At one point it
> appeared that the Japanese with their cooperation between government
> and industry were going to eat out lunches. Well, things didn't turn
> out that way did they?
>
> >
> >He has written a book, which I will read as soon as I can get a
> >copy: "Ikari no burekusuruu," ('Break Through With Anger,')
> >Shueisha, April 2001, ISBN: 4834250520.
>
> Why the anger?

Suggest you follow the URL link in Jed's post. Basically Nakamura would not
and could not fit in with the Japanese industrial customs and his singular
contributions were ignored and not properly recognized. Similar stories are
found in  US academic and industrial culture, but the inbred pressure to
conformity is stronger in Japan than in the US. There are others in Japan
who don't fit the mold who have not made a noisy departure for the US.
>
> >
> >In my opinion, the problems he describes are the root cause of
> >Japan's lingering economic malaise.
>
> What is this cause? They work hard and save their money, We work
> hard, but we play hard too, and the average American burns up lots of
> material. In the end the only explanation I can come up with is that
> the Japanese society is even more stratified in terms of the rich
> wanting to keep what they have, particularly in terms of economic
> power than this country. The Japanese are experts on taking our
> research and mass marketing it. There has been no shortage on
> innovative new products, and no shortage of raw materials to make
> them out of too.

The point that Nakamura makes is that the Japanese culture readily adapts
foreign inventions and techniques and optimizes them, as in their expertise
in manufacturing, but the ability to reward individualist breakthroughs runs
counter to the culture. Japan honors as "National Treasures" individual
artists and artisans who master *traditional* crafts. Sony is a world leader
in adapting consumer electronics to consumer needs, but Sony was not the
sole inventor of the basic technologies. The current Japanese malaise is
attributable in part to corruption in the banking-industrial complex, which
in some respects is a modern adaptation of a feudal structure which gives
lifetime protection to the loyal serfs. There is a ruthlessness in this
system, for the lifetime jobs went to an inner core of the giant company.
Others, not in that core, were regarded as temporary workers or
subcontractors who had no protection and could be used or shed as needed.
Thus the fierce competition to get into the "right" universities which feed
salarymen to the giant corporations.

Nakamura makes a point I have heard elsewhere, that the competition to get
in
the Japanese universities is so fierce that students don't study once there.
US universities are easier to get into, but much harder to graduate from.
>
> >  In the 1980s people predicted that Japan would become an economic
> >powerhouse, surpassing the U.S. I thought it might, but I figured it
> >would first undergo major social changes, as it has periodically in
> >the last 150 years.>
>
> If they don't do it, I don't know who will.

Competition can force it. The techniques of high quality mass production,
created in the US during WW2 and taken to Japan by Deming, can be adapted by
any society and they are used widely in the Far East. Japan no longer has a
unique advantage in this respect, and the cultures of the other countries
may not be so rigid.
>
> >I thought the people of my generation, such as Nakamura, were primed
> >to change things. They were not, unfortunately.
>
> I don't understand why the Japanese small businesses were bankrupted,
> were they sacrificed to maintain the large corporations?

Not quite. There is a strong tradition to support traditional small
businesses, for they give employment and customer attention, even though
they are grossly inefficient. Jed knows Japan far better than I, who made a
brief visit decades ago. But then a department store had a lady standing by
the escalator to escort customers onto the moving steps. I bought a
paperback
book in a hotel gift shop and it was covered in decorative paper before I
was allowed to take it away. Such details are charming but inefficient. They
will not stand against competition. Neither has the lifetime loyalty of
salarymen; layoffs are common and jumping ship for the better offer is
becoming more common.
>
> Thank you for posting the URL about the LED bulbs. Unfortunately the
> prices for a bulb which would produce the equivalent light of a 75 to
> 100 Watt bulb  are just too expensive to be practical at this time.

They are neat and I'm using some white LEDs to make a battery-powered music
light for my wife. They are expensive, but there are applications such as
traffic lights where the reliability is paramount, for the labor cost in
replacement is so high that the bulb cost is irrelevant. The white LEDs look
different, too. It's not a crystal, but a shallow cone-shaped cup holding a
yellowish substance with a wire poking in the middle. When turned on, the
whole surface glows with a blue-white light.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 11:47:25 2001
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Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:44:53 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Wind power "nameplate" versus actual output
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Here is something wind power advocates do not like to talk about.

Wind turbine power is quoted in "nameplate" megawatts, which means full 
load output when conditions are optimum. However, wind conditions vary, so 
actual output is considerably less. I finally tracked down the following 
information from Denmark, the world leader in wind power production:

http://www.windpower.dk/stat/unitsene.htm

"In order to find out how much energy the wind turbines produce you have to 
know the distribution of wind speeds for each turbine. In Denmark's case, 
the average wind turbines will return 2,300 hours of full load operation 
per year. . . .

In other areas, like Wales, Scotland, or Western Ireland you are likely to 
have something like 3,000 hours of full load operation or more. In Germany 
the figure is closer to 2,000 hours of full load operation. . . ."

In other words, actual output ranges from 23% to 34% of nameplate capacity. 
With fossil fuel and nuclear power plants, actual is 94% of nameplate, 
according to www.eia.doe.gov. I checked actual industry reported annual 
terrawatt hour output versus nameplate capacity in the U.S. and Europe, and 
confirmed these percentages.

Despite this inefficiency, wind power remains promising. I plugged that 
factor into a spreadsheet, along with present U.S. nameplate and actual 
total generation capacity, utility and non-utility. The actual grand total 
is ~750,000 MW capacity, about 1/3 of the world total. Worldwide, nameplate 
wind installed capacity is 23,000 MW, but that is only ~6,500 MW actual, or 
0.3% of actual world capacity.

However, for the last 8 years wind has been growing at a fairly steady rate 
of 23% per year. That is not unusual for a new industry. Assuming it slows 
down to 20% per annum, by the year 2023 wind will supply as much 
electricity as the entire U.S. now consumes, and by 2038 it will supply as 
much as source of energy, both electricity and direct fossil fuel, 
presently consumed worldwide. (I factored out fossil fuel used to generate 
electricity). This would be feasible if excess electricity generated at 
night was stored or shipped as hydrogen.

I think at 10% growth rate is more likely, especially after the most 
cost-effective windy locations near large cities are built up. That would 
move the two benchmarks to the years 2048 and 2081 instead.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 12:30:02 2001
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Subject: Re: Wind power "nameplate" versus actual output
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I wrote:

". . . by 2038 it will supply as much as source of energy, both electricity 
and direct fossil fuel, presently consumed worldwide."

Meant: all sources of energy, used in electricity generation, heating, 
transportation and all other sectors.

I think I overestimated total world energy consumption. Various sources put 
total world annual energy consumption at 380 quads per year, or 186 million 
barrels of oil per day equivalent. (It was 166 million in 1985.) If I have 
done my arithmetic right that is equivalent to 13 million MW generation 
(MWH per hour), or about 10 million MW when you factor out fuel lost as 
waste heat when generating electricity, which would not be a factor with 
wind power. Anyway, we could replace all energy sometime between 2034 and 
2073, at the rate wind power has been growing for the last 8 years. This 
does not take into account the price decline, which is expected to 
continue. That would speed things up.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 12:43:35 2001
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Subject: Re: LED inventor now in U.S. - a sad story
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>. . . a department store had a lady standing by the escalator to escort 
>customers onto the moving steps. I bought a paperback book in a hotel gift 
>shop and it was covered in decorative paper before I was allowed to take 
>it away. Such details are charming but inefficient.

Yes indeed. Back then, small banks and Post Offices were staffed with 
dozens of young women who used abacuses. It took forever to withdraw $50 or 
mail a letter, but it was charming in a way. Nowadays, they have been 
replaced by computers. I suspect that is why the unemployment rate is at 
postwar record high of 5.3%. In 1975 it was said that in Japan you find a 
dozen people in the bank clicking on an abacus, while in France that dozen 
people are in the cafe living on unemployment insurance, and in the U.S. 
they sit at home on welfare, watching television. It is not clear which is 
best for society. The people in Japan seemed happier, all in all, but 
everyone knew it was ridiculously inefficient.

No modern society has resolved the problem first posed by Norbert Wiener: 
how to make the best human use of human beings. The problem will grow worse 
if CF succeeds.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 13:17:03 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Handy energy information from CIA
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:13:24 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:03:42 -0500:
[snip]
>If someone knows a reliable percent of actual compared to "nameplate" power 
>ratings for most wind turbines, I would appreciate hearing from you. 
>Estimates range from 10% to 66%. It is amazing how much misinformation and 
>disinformation is circulated about subjects such as this. A nuclear power 
>shill claimed the number is 4%, and he made several other claims that must 
>be false, since windpower sells for $0.04 per kWh, as everyone in the 
>industry agrees it does. See:
[snip]
The numbers I have seen seem to indicate that in a reasonably good
setting, the annual average power of a top of line turbine is about 1/3
of the nameplate rating. This is of course due to wind variability.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 13:23:15 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Off topic: Redistributing wealth
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:21:32 +1100
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:34:40 -0600:
[snip]
>I am a proponent of the Satanic Conspiracy Paradigm which basically 
>says that these people are attempting to set up a one world 
>government with the belief that their God will descend from the 
>heavens to complete the pyramid that they have built here on earth. 

Seth of the clan of Annu
Seth.Annu
Seth.An
Seth.an
Set.an
Sat.an
Satan
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 14:42:54 2001
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:46:51 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Cc: mudscribe yahoo.com
Subject: Big Rude high Voltage Pulses!



http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~wwl/marxgen.htm


	Dear Folks,


	Go to this place and see the design of a simple pulse former.
A friend of mine will build these up for 50 USD.  
	He is Daniel and will be building the simple 12 stage pulse
formers.
	He can get the powersupplies to drive these also. 
	I am certainly going to have him build me up one!


	Daniel is at:

	mudscribe yahoo.com


						J Herman Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 13 14:42:58 2001
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Subject: Big Rude high Voltage Pulses! (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:46:51 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Cc: mudscribe yahoo.com
Subject: Big Rude high Voltage Pulses!



http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~wwl/marxgen.htm


	Dear Folks,


	Go to this place and see the design of a simple pulse former.
A friend of mine will build these up for 50 USD.  
	He is Daniel and will be building the simple 12 stage pulse
formers.
	He can get the powersupplies to drive these also. 
	I am certainly going to have him build me up one!


	Daniel is at:

	mudscribe yahoo.com


						J Herman Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 14 01:52:19 2001
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 <5.1.0.14.2.20011212183642.02eb2960 pop.mindspring.com>
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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 03:48:24 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: LED inventor now in U.S. - a sad story
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Jed posted, and I replied;

>>In the end the only explanation I can come up with is that the 
>>Japanese society is even more stratified in terms of the rich 
>>wanting to keep what they have, particularly in terms of economic 
>>power than this country.
>
That's incorrect. The gap between social classes is much smaller in 
Japan than in the U.S. The U.S. is now approaching historic record 
high ratios, not seen s

>rewarded enough. Perhaps they are rewarded a little too much in the U.S.

Hum; I don't know that it's the innovators who are rewarded in this 
society, Jed. I think that It's people with capital, and people who 
know how to manipulate the system, lawyers and executives. I'm 
troubled by what you said about 5% of the population having most of 
the wealth. Particularly given the enormous increase in the total 
wealth of this society. I would call your attention to the discussion 
that Standing Bear and I had about what I regard as his misguided 
ideas about wealth redistribution, and the people who actually run 
this country.

>
>>Thank you for posting the URL about the LED bulbs. Unfortunately 
>>the prices for a bulb which would produce the equivalent light of a 
>>75 to 100 Watt bulb  are just too expensive to be practical at this 
>>time.
>
>That's true, but there is no fundamental reason why the price will 
>not fall rapidly. LEDs do not require exotic materials or difficult 
>manufacturing
>
>First a toy, then a luxury, then a necessity
>
>This should be warning to people who are thinking of investing in 
>companies making incandescent lights or selling electricity.

I agree Jed, I hope to have more to say about this subject next year.

Thomas



-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 14 06:04:31 2001
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Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:15:19 +0000
From: Robert Chambers <robert.chambers baesystems.com>
Subject: Japanese professor claims he invented Ginger/Segway/IT
To: forteana yahoogroups.com
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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 <"011214135303Z.WT17221. 71*/PN=Robert.Chambers/OU=NOTES/O=BAe Systems and
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No URL with it, unfortunately, but looks like one of the press agencies....

A Japanese professor claims he really invented the Ginger transporter. He
claims to have originally patented the idea for a two-wheeled scooter driven
by the user shifting their bodyweight.  But Kazuo Yamafuji says he only
patented it in Japan and so won't get any cash from its US designer.

Dean Kamen had been building public interest in the device for almost 12
months before finally unveiling it to the public. He has now renamed it the
Segway Human Transporter and his company refuses to discuss any questions
about intellectual property rights to the idea.

But Yamafuji, who works at the University of Electro-Communications in
Tokyo, told the Mainichi Daily News he began working on the idea in 1986 as
part of a student's research.  He said: "My patent is only valid for Japan.
I didn't apply for a patent in the United States, so there's nothing I can
do if Segway want to sell it. Still, the idea was mine."

Story filed: 10:48 Friday 14th December 2001



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 14 09:04:07 2001
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Subject: Revisionist QM --from the "Mainstream"!
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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Dear Colleagues,

I was just alerted to a most remarkable scientist/technologist, and a
published interview with him in the September/October 2001 issue of The
American Spectator magazine  (which is on many newsstands and in libraries,
but the subscriber line is at 800-524-3469).

Professor Carver A. Mead of Caltech, a former student of Richard Feynman,
apparently takes great exception to the formulation of conventional quantum
mechanics.  More, in the interview he gives this bottom line: "It is my firm
belief that the last seven decades of the twentieth century will be
characterized in history as the dark ages of physics."  I couldn't agree
with him more, albeit for reasons that are no doubt larger in scope than
his.  

We can already begin to hear the establishment physicists recoiling in
horror at the message being conveyed by Prof. Mead.  Though his work does
not apparently address directly some of the specific issues that have come
up in the new energy field (e.g. hydrinos or low energy nuclear reactions),
I can't help but think that if Dr. Mead knew of the solid work in these
areas, he might offer a novel perspective on a host of experimental findings
in new energy physics.  It would be interesting to know his thoughts about
the work of Dr. Randall Mills of BlackLight Power.

Mead has a new book out, Collective Electrodynamics, which is published by
MIT Press no less.  It is available on Amazon.com and I have ordered it.
Every one of you should read his interview in The American Spectator,
whether or not you read his book. In the interview, there are many
remarkable statements by a man who should know about the limitations and
problems of present quantum mechanics. He has worked all his life in the
real world of solid state physics in a most productive way.  He is the
Gordon and Betty Moore Professor of Engineering and Applied Science at
Caltech.  The introduction to the A.S. interview calls him "the microchip
industry's most influential and creative academic, Mead is best known as
inventor of a crucial high frequency transistor, author of dominant chip
design techniques, progenitor of the movement toward dynamically
programmable logic chips, and most recently developer of radical advances in
machine-aided perception.  In 1999 he won the half-million dollar
MIT-Lemelson award for innovation. But any list of accomplishments
underrates Mead's role as the most important practical scientist of the late
twentieth century. He is now emerging as the boldest theoretical physicist
of the twenty-first."

Mead contests standard concepts such as "point particles," the Copenhagen
interpretation of quantum mechanics, and the Heisenberg Uncertainty
Principle, among others.  In his new book he is said to cite the laser and
nine other phenomena  -- such as superconductivity, masers, and
Bose-Einstein condensates -- which are large scale coherent phenomena that
he says are not properly addressed in quantum mechanics as known today.  He
comes down on the side of Einstein in his supposedly lost battle with  Bohr
on the fundamental indeterminacy of nature.  But he also challenges the
efficacy of General Relativity as an adequate description or gravity.

A few interesting quotes from the lengthy interview, indicative of Mead's
stance:

"They took the limitations of their cumbersome experiments as evidence for
the nature of reality. Using the crude equipment of the early 20th century,
its amazing that physicists could get any significant results at all.  So I
have enormous respect for people who were able to discern anything profound
from these experiments. If they had known about the coherent quantum systems
that are commonplace today, they wouldn't have thought of using statistics
as the foundation for physics."

"After Bohr defeated Einstein, nobody else would take on the argument.
Because if they put Einstein under, think of what they would do to you."

Current quantum mechanics is "...conceptual nonsense. You can calculate
stuff with the theory, but the words people put around it don't make any
sense. That had the effect of driving the more conceptually-oriented
students out of physics."

"When we grasp onto some regularity we give it a name, and the temptation is
always to think that we really understand it. But the truth is that we're
still not even close. Isn't it wonderful that nature is like that?  It would
be so dreadful if nature were so dull that we, with our pathetic prejudices,
had it all figured out already."

Amen!

I trust that this will lead to interesting debates. Mead's work flies in the
face of contemporary "theory of everything" advocates such as Nobel laureate
Steven Weinberg who think they have it all just about figured out.  Hah!
Compare Carver Mead's outlook above to that of Weinberg:

Weinberg, p.37 in "Facing Up: Science and Its Cultural Adversaries (Harvard
Univ. Press, 2001): "So I find it difficult to imagine that the future
synthesis of everything will not be in the language of quantum mechanics.
Quantum mechanics is a grammar, in terms of which all physics must be
expressed, but it does not itself tell us anything. That is one of the
reasons it is hard to test, because by itself it says nothing."

Best wishes,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
www.infinite-energy.com




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"Eugene F. Mallove" wrote:
> 
> Dear Colleagues,
> 
> I was just alerted to a most remarkable scientist/technologist, and a
> published interview with him in the September/October 2001 issue of The
> American Spectator magazine  (which is on many newsstands and in libraries,
> but the subscriber line is at 800-524-3469).

It's on the web at:

http://www.gilder.com/AmericanSpectatorArticles/carver.htm

Regards,

Terry

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On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
> 
> I was just alerted to a most remarkable scientist/technologist, and a
> published interview with him in the September/October 2001 issue of The
> American Spectator magazine  (which is on many newsstands and in libraries,
> but the subscriber line is at 800-524-3469).
> 
> Professor Carver A. Mead of Caltech, a former student of Richard Feynman,
> apparently takes great exception to the formulation of conventional quantum
> mechanics.


It would be good to know more about what, in particular, he takes
exception to and less appeal to authority. 

> horror at the message being conveyed by Prof. Mead.  Though his work does
> not apparently address directly some of the specific issues that have come
> up in the new energy field (e.g. hydrinos or low energy nuclear reactions),


To be honest, I find the Hydrino theory to be gibberish and the
exierimental results to be be etherial. Thus, I choose not to study it. If
I can't follow it I'm not going to study it. It may be gibberish or
perhaps it is beyond me. The reason doesn't matter. I've yet to see a
logical explaination of it. 

There is nothing about cold fusion that is contradicted by quantum
mechanics. Further, the effect is clearly experimentally indicated. 


[snip appeal to authority]

I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed with authority or past achievements. To
me, all authority means is that the authority should be able to eplain
himself. 

> Mead contests standard concepts such as "point particles," the Copenhagen
> interpretation of quantum mechanics, and the Heisenberg Uncertainty
> Principle, among others.  


QM says nothing about "point particles". Interpretations are really
necessary. The Heisenberg Uncertainty principle has been show
experimentally to be a hard and fast rule that is never violated. 


> In his new book he is said to cite the laser and
> nine other phenomena  -- such as superconductivity, masers, and
> Bose-Einstein condensates -- which are large scale coherent phenomena that
> he says are not properly addressed in quantum mechanics as known today.  He

Odd that BECs were predicted by QM before they were discovered, and then
he claims that BECs are inconcistant with QM.

I welcome all new theories. But I have to see the theory to judge it, and
no amount of horn blowing is going to change that. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 14 14:13:51 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Dec 14, 2001
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:09:39 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 14 Dec 01   Washington, DC

1. OLYMPIC TORCH RELAY: CONGRESSIONAL ACTION PUTS PHYSICIST IN. 
Having run out of mountains to climb (he did Everest in 2000),
our own Francis Slakey, APS Associate Director of Public Affairs,
will run a leg of the 2002 Winter Olympics Torch Relay starting
on the East Steps of the U.S. Capitol at 3:16pm on 21 Dec.  Post-
anthrax security rules bar all public ceremonies from the Capitol
Grounds, but, Congress took swift action, adopting a Concurrent
Resolution that grants an exception for the Olympic Torch Relay.

2. ABM TREATY: BUSH DECLARES U.S. INTENT TO WITHDRAW IN 6 MONTHS.
At a time when the U.S. is desperately seeking the cooperation of
other nations in its war on terrorism, the U.S. seems intent on
getting out of agreements.  We failed to ratify the Comprehensive
Test Ban Treaty, bowed out of the Kyoto accord on climate change,
walked out of the Geneva conference on biological weapons, and
now, as he has threatened for months, President Bush formally
gave six-months notice, as required, of our intent to withdraw
from the 1992 ABM Treaty.  Critics have argued that abandoning
the 1972 treaty would lead to an arms race, but just hours after
Bush's announcement, Colin Powell declared that "an arms race has
not been set off."  It could be too early to tell.

3. BIO-TERRORISM: LINKS TO THE HEAD OF A WHITE HOUSE COMMISSION?
Three New York Times writers, Judith Miller, Stephen Engelberg
and William Broad have turned out an incredibly timely piece of
investigative reporting at its best.  Germs, Simon & Schuster,
2001, begins with a chilling account of the first bio-terrorism
attack on U.S. soil: the deliberate salmonella poisoning of
hundreds of residents in Wasco County Oregon in an effort to keep
them away from the polls, and thus take political control of the
region.  The attack was carried out by members of a free-sex cult
led by Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, who was subsequently deported.
What Germs doesn't tell you is that one of Rajneesh's followers
was a psychiatrist named James Gordon (WN 16 Aug 96), who wrote
The Golden Guru, an admiring book about Rajneesh.  Gordon was
involved in the effort to take political control of Antelope,
Oregon.  Incredibly, James Gordon now heads the White House
Commission on Complementary and Alternative Medicine Policy (WN
19 Oct 01), created in waning days of the Clinton Administration.

4. PCAST: BUSH NAMES ADVISORY COUNCIL ON SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY.
The co-chairs were already known, Jack Marburger, the President's
Science Advisor, and Floyd Kvamme, a Silicon Valley venture
capitalist.  Most of the 24 members are from the information-
technology industry. Unlike past Councils, there is virtually no
representation from research scientists.  Even the few academics
best known as administrators.  The sole exception is Charles
Arntzen, a plant biologist from Arizona State University.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 14 15:39:03 2001
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Dear Eugene and Terry,

Thank you for pointing the article. I am enchanted by learning Carver Mead is O.A. Barut follower. Once I read a paper of Barut titled "WHAT ARE THE TRUE BUILDING BLOCK OF MATTER" and amazed by the simplicity and the power of the theory, predicting correc
t masses of muons with a simple formula and explained mysterious symmetry violation of some particles no more complex than college textbook.

I had hand coded the paper into Word format at 1998 and still available its initial place http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/6660/barut.zip

Because the manual coding, may few minor errors be present on my reproduction.

As I recall the paper is published at 1979 or 1980.

At 8 Sep 1997, Robert G. Flower informed me (vortex forum)
"he book by Barut I have handy is:

"Electrodynamics and Classical Theory of Fields and Particles" by
A.O. Barut. ISBN 0-486-64038-8. Paperback reprint by Dover
Publications ($7.95) in 1980 of the original edition published by
Macmillan in 1964."

I am not sure is this this correct reference because the paper has references to date late to 1979. So the paper could not be originated to 1964.

O. A. Barut had passed at 1995.

What is interesting here, despite 2 decades, very few papers had been published following Barut theory, one is of D.Y. Chung. Related paper is The masses of elementary particles and hadrons http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/hep-ph/0003237

Such a lack of interest on a fundamental physics theory that contains proof, justify Carver Mead statement “It is my firm belief that the last seven decades of the twentieth century will be characterized in history as the dark ages of theoretical physics.
”

Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> "Eugene F. Mallove" wrote:
> >
> > Dear Colleagues,
> >
> > I was just alerted to a most remarkable scientist/technologist, and a
> > published interview with him in the September/October 2001 issue of The
> > American Spectator magazine  (which is on many newsstands and in libraries,
> > but the subscriber line is at 800-524-3469).
> 
> It's on the web at:
> 
> http://www.gilder.com/AmericanSpectatorArticles/carver.htm
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Terry

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 14 20:20:27 2001
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Subject: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
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>From http://www.bottomquark.com

>Mayonnaise-Making Maladies
> Sometimes I have to wander the Internet randomly for hours to find the
> true gems. Other times, I am led straight to them. So, from an anonymous
> source: 
>
>   ...This might seem like a crazy question, but my grandmother swears
>   that it is impossible to make mayo during a thunderstorm and she's
>   dying to know why. My family's current theory is that it has something
>   to do with humidity, air pressure, or even static electricity...
>
> I hope someone can help this poor soul and his family.
>
> You know who you are, and we thank you.


A similar topic appeared on LAST WORD on the New Scientist magazine
website:

  Thunderstorms can curdle milk?
  http://www.newscientist.com/lastword/answers/320weather.jsp?tp=weather3

Note well the *actual experiment* performed by one of the posters.  It's
always easy to ascribe an old wives' tale to mistaken observations.
However, if a lightning storm can demonstrably curdle milk within a few
minutes, we have a problem.  As far as I know, neither UV light nor EM
pulses nor loud sounds can cause casein to immediately congeal as
described.

I doubt that thunder is the cause.  Whacking a glass of milk firmly onto
the tabletop should produce a much larger acoustic wave within the milk
than any thunder could produce.  I doubt that UV light is the cause:
water absorbs UV, so if the UV of a lightning flash was the cause, it
should produce a layer of curdled milk on the side of the glass towards
the lightning.

We're left with two possibilities: either EMP, or a form of energy
currently unrecognized by science.  The EMP produced by a nearby lightning
strike is quite powerful.  But low-frequency EM waves typically have no
effect on chemistry (otherwise they'd curdle your sensitive biology.)


Any offered explanations should lead to a successful experiment: if UV
light or EM fields from lightning can curdle milk and interfere with mayo
chemistry, then this phenomenon should be simple enough to demonstrate in
the lab.  Can a camera flash cause milk in a dish to curdle?  (Heh.  If
it's the EM pulses that do it, then you can build a zap-gun which lowers
the shelf life of any targeted milk carton!  Or maybe you can patent an
improved way to mass-produce cheese!) 

PS
Mix a bit of vinegar into a glass of milk.  Within minutes the casein
"curds" will separate from the transparent "whey".  Perhaps the
thunderstorm somehow triggers the release of hydrogen ions in the same way
that acids do?


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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Subject: Multiverse Structure & Making Planets to Keep the Peace!
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Multiverse Structure & Making Planets to Keep the Peace!

Space itself should be infinite, and there should be many infinite
universes within space itself. The multiverse or set of infinite
universes, should have a structure much like a bunch of air
bubbles in water, where the water represents space, and the air
bubbles represents each individual universe within space itself. 
Each air bubble may be connected to another air bubble through
space or water by a small vortex whole in the water or space
much like a postulated black whole in our universe as a vortex
or door way to another universe.   

If one does not believe in the big bang, which may have been
postulated to cover the true mathematical nature of the universe
which is conservation of perpetual motion, then the bubble of
the multiverse or universe which we live in is infinite, and suns
or stars may give birth to planets, and planets grow from the
sunlight as in photosynthesis.  Suns or stars may also change
themselves, and may also be doorways to other universes as in a
black whole. Suns may become born in our universe or may
leave and go to other universes, since they are doorways to
other universes. Suns may also be used as doorways to other
parts of our universe by nature of their rotational inertia which
gives them the gravity or antigravity to make a vortex to
another place through space.  Planets themselves may have
enough rotational energy to make a vortex through space to
other places on the planet and to other planets and objects in
the solar system. 

Suns may also be doorways to other timelines in a universe, and
to other places in time within a timeline, making time travel
possible within a universe. Also planets may have enough
rotational energy to make doorways to other timelines within
the planet, and to other places in a timeline within the planet.

Since there is more than one universe in the multiverse, and
since a solar system may change by virtue of its star or sun, then
a solar system may move from universe to universe, and objects
in other universes may move to any solar system in other
universes. It is very possible for our solar system to get help
from other universes, for more ethical forces from other
universes if we need the help to create a balance in this solar
system or universe. 

If one thinks in these terms there is a very good chance of any
repressed planet, in any solar system, to get help from ethical
positive sympathetic forces from other solar systems,  other
universes, and other timelines within a universe, solar system,
and planet, to create a better or fair balance in the solar system
so that all planets live in harmony, happiness, and peace within
the solar system, and under fair and just terms. One person, any
group of individuals, planet, or solar system may focus on what
a peaceful balanced solar system should be like where everyone
is happy, and then focus on such future timelines similar to it, or
other similar solar systems in a universe or other universes, to
get support or make alliances to create a balance of power to
achieve peace.

Also in the above model of the multiverse and universes, there
are infinite resources, which can be obtained by simple use of
conservation of perpetual motion and rotational energy, which
can make peace achievable on any planet, or within any solar
system, since resources are no longer limited to certain regions,
and war is not needed to get resources.  The only other
problems is to keep each region on a planet responsible for its
regions population, so that they do not seek more space from
other regions on the planet by warfare, do to irresponsible
population policies.   

It is possible to make artificial planets, relatively easily for
people to live on, with present technologies, within about10 to
20 years. One only needs to make a metal sphere on Earth, say
10 miles in diameter in a desert. The sphere, can be made by
using super strong metal tether lines, which are currently
available. One may create three central metal tether axis's 10
miles in diameter held up by remote controlled blimps, and
connect or wrap other tether lines around the sphere with other
blimps, to make a metal grid of tethers similar to the grid lines
on our Earth. Then one simply connects metal panels to the
tether lines. Once the sphere is completed, dirt can be placed in
the sphere from the desert, and then an artificial atmosphere can
be made in the sphere to have clouds and rain, and then plants
can planted, and antigravity can be made in the sphere with
rotational energy to make floating cities on islands in the
sphere. Then one can use Tesla technologies to electrify the
sphere so that it has its own gravity, and floats off of the Earth
into outer space, and steered by the same technologies. It would
take about 10 billion dollars, and maybe 10 to 20 years  to make
a sphere, which cold hold about 100,000 people. 

Also one can find natural planets to live on, in other solar
systems and universes, by using rotational energy to make
doorways to those places to travel to, or by using small artificial
planets to travel to those other solar systems. 

Until Earth leans to become responsible with populations within
regions the above technologies can be used to keep peace and
balance without warfare do to limited space.

I came up with the above conclusions by using pure logic, and
geometry, in my mediations, since I questioned, if there were
other universes why can we not see their light, and my answer
was because our universe is in a gravity bubble which may bend
space so that it encircles us so that we can not see the light from
other universes, and that black wholes or suns reversed or
inside out or singularities may be doorways to those other
universes. 


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
www.rhfweb.com/personal
tom rhfweb.com











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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Multiverse Structure &amp; Making Planets to Keep the Peace!
<BR>
<BR>Space itself should be infinite, and there should be many infinite
<BR>universes within space itself. The multiverse or set of infinite
<BR>universes, should have a structure much like a bunch of air
<BR>bubbles in water, where the water represents space, and the air
<BR>bubbles represents each individual universe within space itself. 
<BR>Each air bubble may be connected to another air bubble through
<BR>space or water by a small vortex whole in the water or space
<BR>much like a postulated black whole in our universe as a vortex
<BR>or door way to another universe. &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>If one does not believe in the big bang, which may have been
<BR>postulated to cover the true mathematical nature of the universe
<BR>which is conservation of perpetual motion, then the bubble of
<BR>the multiverse or universe which we live in is infinite, and suns
<BR>or stars may give birth to planets, and planets grow from the
<BR>sunlight as in photosynthesis. &nbsp;Suns or stars may also change
<BR>themselves, and may also be doorways to other universes as in a
<BR>black whole. Suns may become born in our universe or may
<BR>leave and go to other universes, since they are doorways to
<BR>other universes. Suns may also be used as doorways to other
<BR>parts of our universe by nature of their rotational inertia which
<BR>gives them the gravity or antigravity to make a vortex to
<BR>another place through space. &nbsp;Planets themselves may have
<BR>enough rotational energy to make a vortex through space to
<BR>other places on the planet and to other planets and objects in
<BR>the solar system. 
<BR>
<BR>Suns may also be doorways to other timelines in a universe, and
<BR>to other places in time within a timeline, making time travel
<BR>possible within a universe. Also planets may have enough
<BR>rotational energy to make doorways to other timelines within
<BR>the planet, and to other places in a timeline within the planet.
<BR>
<BR>Since there is more than one universe in the multiverse, and
<BR>since a solar system may change by virtue of its star or sun, then
<BR>a solar system may move from universe to universe, and objects
<BR>in other universes may move to any solar system in other
<BR>universes. It is very possible for our solar system to get help
<BR>from other universes, for more ethical forces from other
<BR>universes if we need the help to create a balance in this solar
<BR>system or universe. 
<BR>
<BR>If one thinks in these terms there is a very good chance of any
<BR>repressed planet, in any solar system, to get help from ethical
<BR>positive sympathetic forces from other solar systems, &nbsp;other
<BR>universes, and other timelines within a universe, solar system,
<BR>and planet, to create a better or fair balance in the solar system
<BR>so that all planets live in harmony, happiness, and peace within
<BR>the solar system, and under fair and just terms. One person, any
<BR>group of individuals, planet, or solar system may focus on what
<BR>a peaceful balanced solar system should be like where everyone
<BR>is happy, and then focus on such future timelines similar to it, or
<BR>other similar solar systems in a universe or other universes, to
<BR>get support or make alliances to create a balance of power to
<BR>achieve peace.
<BR>
<BR>Also in the above model of the multiverse and universes, there
<BR>are infinite resources, which can be obtained by simple use of
<BR>conservation of perpetual motion and rotational energy, which
<BR>can make peace achievable on any planet, or within any solar
<BR>system, since resources are no longer limited to certain regions,
<BR>and war is not needed to get resources. &nbsp;The only other
<BR>problems is to keep each region on a planet responsible for its
<BR>regions population, so that they do not seek more space from
<BR>other regions on the planet by warfare, do to irresponsible
<BR>population policies. &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>It is possible to make artificial planets, relatively easily for
<BR>people to live on, with present technologies, within about10 to
<BR>20 years. One only needs to make a metal sphere on Earth, say
<BR>10 miles in diameter in a desert. The sphere, can be made by
<BR>using super strong metal tether lines, which are currently
<BR>available. One may create three central metal tether axis's 10
<BR>miles in diameter held up by remote controlled blimps, and
<BR>connect or wrap other tether lines around the sphere with other
<BR>blimps, to make a metal grid of tethers similar to the grid lines
<BR>on our Earth. Then one simply connects metal panels to the
<BR>tether lines. Once the sphere is completed, dirt can be placed in
<BR>the sphere from the desert, and then an artificial atmosphere can
<BR>be made in the sphere to have clouds and rain, and then plants
<BR>can planted, and antigravity can be made in the sphere with
<BR>rotational energy to make floating cities on islands in the
<BR>sphere. Then one can use Tesla technologies to electrify the
<BR>sphere so that it has its own gravity, and floats off of the Earth
<BR>into outer space, and steered by the same technologies. It would
<BR>take about 10 billion dollars, and maybe 10 to 20 years &nbsp;to make
<BR>a sphere, which cold hold about 100,000 people. 
<BR>
<BR>Also one can find natural planets to live on, in other solar
<BR>systems and universes, by using rotational energy to make
<BR>doorways to those places to travel to, or by using small artificial
<BR>planets to travel to those other solar systems. 
<BR>
<BR>Until Earth leans to become responsible with populations within
<BR>regions the above technologies can be used to keep peace and
<BR>balance without warfare do to limited space.
<BR>
<BR>I came up with the above conclusions by using pure logic, and
<BR>geometry, in my mediations, since I questioned, if there were
<BR>other universes why can we not see their light, and my answer
<BR>was because our universe is in a gravity bubble which may bend
<BR>space so that it encircles us so that we can not see the light from
<BR>other universes, and that black wholes or suns reversed or
<BR>inside out or singularities may be doorways to those other
<BR>universes. 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Respectfully,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>www.rhfweb.com/personal
<BR>tom rhfweb.com
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_32.1fac8427.294cd099_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 15 08:27:30 2001
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Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 08:19:02 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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BillB wrote:

> ...This might seem like a crazy question, but my grandmother swears
> that it is impossible to make mayo during a thunderstorm and she's
> dying to know why. My family's current theory is that it has something
> to do with humidity, air pressure, or even static electricity...

Also:  Thunderstorms can curdle milk?
http://www.newscientist.com/lastword/answers/320weather.jsp?tp=weather3

>...However, if a lightning storm can demonstrably curdle milk within a few
minutes, we have a problem. As far as I know, neither UV light nor EM
pulses nor loud sounds can cause casein to immediately congeal as
described.


Hey Bill,

What a damned coincidence. Your answer may very well have appeared on your
own forum just a few weeks ago:

To paraphrase Fred Sparber... how much Net Charge can be added to a vessel
of H2O [milk] and how much will this high voltage affect the pH ?

That is, FS: The surface of the earth has an abundance of free electrons as
evidenced by "static electricity" effects (especially following
thunderstorms). With the otherwise unexplainable inconsistencies seen in
CF/OU effects, one wonders if the experiments ranging from cavitation to F&P
cells, are not somehow related to an excess or deficiency of free electrons
in the experiments, especially those that involve D2O or H2O which have a
high electron affinity.

I am adding for emphasis *D2O or H2O have a high electron affinity*  while
at the same time, air (mostly N2) has a high electron aversion. As a result,
the lab that runs a CF experiment using distilled water could get a far
different result than the garage inventor who is using well water !!

Since the electrochemistry of water should change significantly with an
excess of free electrons, one might use a Van De Graaff Generator to load
the water with free electrons in well insulated containers (experiments
using battery power supplies) to see what role the free electrons play.

Even the "bio-transmutation" of potassium to calcium in poultry, reported by
Kervran and others might be because free electrons are readily available
from the water, and clinging to the "dirt" that barnyard chickens feed on
:-)"

end of paraphrase.

In other words, it could very well be that higher acidity - pH - is what
causes the milk to coagulate - the higher pH comes from the natural
self-ionization of water following a thunderstorm (milk is mostly water plus
some water soluble fat and protein that looses solubility at higher pH).

Furthermore, in CF (according to Fred's suggestion):

this self-ionization process should make some fraction of electrolytic cells
amenable to catalyzation  into what can be called a "Quasi-neutron" (Qn)
which would form as the byproduct of excess Atmospheric electrons or other
light leptons):

1, 2 H2O <---> H3O+  +  OH-

2, Atm e-  +  H3O+  + OH-  --->  Qn + H2O + OH-

This makes the electron on the OH- ion "surplus" so that
it can create another Qn:

OH-  +  H3O+   --->  Qn  +  H2O  +  OH  +  OH-

The neutral OH Radicals will eventually form H2O and O2, but the
"uncommitted" electron will remain as a catalyst:

To get a grasp of this, you may need to accept that all electrons are not
exactly equal in qualitative ways that are yet scientifically unproven -
and/or that some of these "atmospheric electrons" are bonded to the
secondary light leptons that Fred has been describing for some time...

Regards,

Jones







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 15 18:28:05 2001
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On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jones Beene wrote:

> What a damned coincidence. Your answer may very well have appeared on your
> own forum just a few weeks ago:
> 
> To paraphrase Fred Sparber... how much Net Charge can be added to a vessel
> of H2O [milk] and how much will this high voltage affect the pH ?

I always wondered about this.  Then I realized that net charge can only
exist on the surface of a macroscopic object.  If it has any effect, it
will only involve things like gas exchange, evaporation, etc., since it
can't get down inside the chemistry.  (Also, the net charge inside
buildings during a thunderstorm is zero.  You have to be exposed to the
open sky before the thunderstorm static fields can be felt.)


Net charge is feeble compared to normal electrochem concentrations.  If a
paperweight-sized object has about 10 picofarads capacitance and 10KV with
respect to ground, by Q=CV we find it has 0.1 microCoulombs of excess
charge on its surface.  e is 1.6x10^-19 coulombs per electron, so 0.1uC of
surface charge involves only 6x10^11 electrons.  I calculate that a square
foot of surface contains about 10^16 generic atoms.  Therefore, at 10KV
our little object only has about one excess charge per 10,000 surface
atoms.  If the excess charges are H+, the atom-thick layer of surface
acidity won't be very strong. 

(I should plug this into a spreadsheet so I can double check my numbers.)


As for milk,  either EMP has an unsuspected cheese-making ability, or
thunderstorms are putting out some sort of signal that has strong effects
on protein cross-linking but is not a part of contemporary physics.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 15 19:12:08 2001
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> As for milk,  either EMP has an unsuspected cheese-making ability, or
> thunderstorms are putting out some sort of signal that has strong effects
> on protein cross-linking but is not a part of contemporary physics.

Couldn't it just be the ozone?  I can smell it at those
times.

Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 15 19:15:51 2001
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"Hoyt Stearns Jr." wrote:
> 
> > As for milk,  either EMP has an unsuspected cheese-making ability, or
> > thunderstorms are putting out some sort of signal that has strong effects
> > on protein cross-linking but is not a part of contemporary physics.
> 
> Couldn't it just be the ozone?  I can smell it at those
> times.
> 
> Hoyt Stearns
> Scottsdale, Arizona

Thinking about it more, it could also be N20, N02,
N203? etc. as lightning
is known to be a primary nitrogen fixing environmental
agent.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 15 20:26:02 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Guy making fusion rocket
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 23:24:32 -0500
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On Monday 10 December 2001 11:24 am, Jones Beene wrote:
> > See:  http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/09/magazine/09WTWT.html
> > Interview of Wilson Greatbatch
>
> The article relates to his work with 3He fusion - and Greatbatch does
> deserve some degree of credit for getting this technology rolling (along
> with Bussard), though despite his age, he was far from the first to
> consider the potential of aneutronic fusion.
>
> BTW, Miley of CF fame is reportedly hard at work on a 3He fusor(IEC).
> Several months ago, I posted to vortex on some of the other work going on
> in 3He IEC but Greatbatch does not appear to be on the cutting edge - at
> least in what has been published.
>
> Some background on this niche field:
> Even before the first moon rocks were brought back and found to contain
> surprisingly large amounts of 3He, inventors have been thinking about and
> working with concepts for using this alternative fuel. The fusion of
> deuterium and tritium is much easier to accomplish but the problems of
> reactor damage from energetic neutrons may never be worked out work out,
> especially for mobile power implementations.
>
> In contrast to D+T, deuterium + helium3 is a source of nearly aneutronic
> fusion, which means not only the reactants can be fully contained by
> magnets but some of the ash can be released though the magnets at a
> predetermined vector to provide either propulsion or electrical energy
> without polluting nearby space. The fuel is non-radioactive, the process
> produces little radioactivity, and the residue produces little
> radioactivity so shielding is greatly reduced, which is a necessity for
> space travel.
>
> It is would be a near perfect energy source, except for the rarity of 3He -
> on earth that is - plus the fact that the D+He reaction takes place at 10
> times the temperature of D+T. But there is an order of magnitude more 3He
> on the moon than our total historical inventory of fossil fuels, and
> Greatbatch believes that just one shuttle load could supply the total US
> energy needs for a whole year. The shuttle load would have a cost of about
> 25 billion dollars, which would equate in energy to oil at $7 per barrel,
> according to one of Greatbatch's lectures, but this figure seems very
> dated.
>
> Even garage inventors can have success in this field, and that is part of
> its allure. From the photo in the NYT article, it is obvious that despite
> its size, Greatbatch's reactor may be relatively primitive. Note the only
> power supply in view appears to be batteries ;-}  OTOH, many lone
> experimenters have built small compact fusors, and a fusor (IEC device) is
> potentially capable of this kind of fusion. Here is a link from a
> University lab that stated off with a rather crude Farnsworth fusor just a
> few years back:
> http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/iec/Publications/Reports/Murali/murali1.htm
>
> There are some really cool fusor sites on the Web these days, so even if CF
> doesn't make it, don't rule out a major energy breakthrough from the lone
> inventor or underfunded lab - and certainly don't rule out Miley. If he
> pulls it off, there could be a number of ripple effects for many neglected
> alternative energy ideas.
>
> Jones Beene

Kinda suspected that we'd have to get some of our fuels from off
planet sources.  Hope, I mean realllly hope that he can do it.  Even
if he does not, somebody will;  maybe in the next ten years or so.
Look at 'Deep Space One', our space program's best pioneer effort
in history whether we realize it or not.  It was our first independant
ship is space that could really go where it wanted and not as a
glorified artillery shell.
	One comment though, it quoting the New York Times, please
cut and paste article from it to your letters or to a friendly website.
The 'Times' has a really nasty 'agreement' that you have to 'sign' before
you can look at any of their content.  That 'agreement' requires that
you accept a potential retroactive pecuniary liability for unspecified
amounts that could be imposed at any time in the future.  I would be
a fool to agree to such a blank check and refuse to do it.  Suspect
that others might think the same way.  Read what you 'sign' on this
world wild web, the economic life you save may be your own.

Standing Bear
   never totally surprised by 'ausgeseichnetz' of monopolists.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 16 14:16:07 2001
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Subject: Re: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
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On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Hoyt Stearns Jr. wrote:

> 
> > As for milk,  either EMP has an unsuspected cheese-making ability, or
> > thunderstorms are putting out some sort of signal that has strong effects
> > on protein cross-linking but is not a part of contemporary physics.
> 
> Couldn't it just be the ozone?  I can smell it at those
> times.

If true, then any ozone curdles milk.  Aim the blower of an ozone
generator at a dish of milk and see what happens.  (The local religious
library has one of these and it reeks of ozone, I'll try to remember to
try this.)


If that description of the experiment is right the whole glass of milk
congealed.  I doubt that the ozone would have time to diffuse into the
whole volume of milk from the surface.  If we spray some vinegar on a
glass of milk, will the entire contents congeal within 15 minutes? 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 08:26:57 2001
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Subject: Re: Off topic: Redistributing wealth
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On Tuesday 11 December 2001 07:59 am, Stephen Lawrence wrote:
> "You will never rest easy in your beds until the Palestines can rest easy
> in theirs."
>
> Osama bin Laden, shorty after Sep 11th.
>
> You're right about the Middle-class though - it's just that they get their
> SUPPORT from those with nothing - who have but their time, and possibly
> their own lives as something they definately can give.  Without supporters,
> OBL would be nothing.
>
> Stephen.
>
> 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB.  Tel 01223
> 564373

Just substitute 'OBL' and folks like him for the "Poor Dumb Terror"
in Edwin G. Markham's poem:  "The Man With the Hoe"!

Standing Bear

society is as a triangle....set it with the wide area at the bottom.  Then
let it be a rough area plot of  relative income and spending with the
vertical being wealth or social class and the horizontal being a rough
histogram of numbers of individual class members for a given 'y' value.
This is the basis of society.  Narrow the triangle by allowing too much
wealth or priviledge to the 'upper classes' and the whole becomes
unstable.  Narrow it enough and you get a Somalia;  or you get a
reaction that becomes a fascist state like '30s Germany.  Bottom line:
if a people have no 'stake' in their government, then that regime has
no 'stake' in its people!  Inverted triangles live only by the grossest
repression.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 09:09:17 2001
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Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:03:01 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: on government funding of energy research
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>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
><snip>
>
>>  Malloy might argue that the government should not do any energy research.
>>  There is something to be said for that argument -- I sometimes agree. On
>>  the other hand, the government has done a lot of R&D in the past, and most
>>  of it has been fabulously successful.

I have to agree. However what's happening now is a classic example of 
why I don't like them funding research. You have entrenched 
bureaucracies that have a vested interest in funding their continued 
exploration of what has proven to be, IMHO, blind alley. IMHO, 
inorder to get an energy machine to return the cost of building it, 
it will have to return 1000%. The best that the hot fusioneers have 
been able to do, AFAIK, is .85%. This after an investment of 
$150,000,000,000, that's a lot of money where I come from.
>
>
>Malloy writes, "Mandatory wealth redistribution programs
>>  produce waste." That is true, of course, but so does capitalism. In the
>>  past 20 years it has redistributed  nearly all of the wealth of nation
>into
>>  the pockets of the top 5% of the country.

This seriously troubles me. OTOH, consider the alternative. The only 
people who have the resources to invest in productive facilities are 
the rich. If it weren't for those facilities, the working class would 
be weaving baskets or something.

>
>I think Jed and perhaps others have a significant confusion here -- at least
>there is a point worth examining carefully and I will not be suprised if
>much discussion ensues. Some years ago, I saw an estimate that if the wealth
>of all perons inthe US with assets of $1 million and over were confiscated
>and residtributed to all the citizens, that each person would receive -----
>$4,000. the number may be higher now. That number is paltry and would not
>change the life condition of any but the most frugal, ingenious, and hard
>working citizens who would persuade others to invest their molehills of
>money into an entrprise to provide services and goods -- in other words,
>become businessmen.

I totally agree

>
>concentrated into a few hands. The rush to the pork barrel includes the
>"liberals" who would like to control these collective assets through
>"public" funds (controlled by them) in the "public interest". It also
>inclused the conservative industrialists who see their interest in serving
>the "consumers" through a "market economy" as their justification for

Liberals with a big state agenda have been major contributors to 
this. However I just listened to Roger Friedenberg, 
www.regularguy.com interview a woman on how the American public is 
being dumbed down by an education system 
http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/index.html which follows the 
principals previously advocated by the communist party. This system 
is being promoted by a grant from the Carnage Foundation. So how do I 
make sense of this, ever hear of the Skull and Bones society? She 
missed one thing, the drug proven most effective to make the 
population stupid is fluoride.


>I think this situation is very
>  > dangerous, and if uncorrected may result in another major depression, the
>>  way it did in 1929 - 1939. I think a modicum of pragmatic mandatory wealth
>>  redistribution is a good idea. I happen to a member of the top 5%, so I am
>>  not speaking out of jealousy or class rivalry. People like Bill Gates
>agree
>  >

I guess we shall see about that.

>
>And countries with a strong, activist central government have blundered into
>disasters of which there are examples scattered all over the planet

Japan is a classic example of that.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 09:25:22 2001
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Top 5 percent are over 90 percent first time
millionares....and money is gone within two
generations.....

steve opelc

> >
> >Malloy writes, "Mandatory wealth redistribution programs
> >>  produce waste." That is true, of course, but so does capitalism. In the
> >>  past 20 years it has redistributed  nearly all of the wealth of nation
> >into
> >>  the pockets of the top 5% of the country.
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 09:44:02 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: on government funding of energy research
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thomas malloy wrote:

>I have to agree. However what's happening now is a classic example of why 
>I don't like them funding research. You have entrenched bureaucracies that 
>have a vested interest in funding their continued exploration of what has 
>proven to be, IMHO, blind alley. IMHO, inorder to get an energy machine to 
>return the cost of building it, it will have to return 1000%. The best 
>that the hot fusioneers have been able to do, AFAIK, is .85%.

Hot fusion is an extreme example. It is unusual. Government and large 
corporations do stick with bad ideas too long, but I have never heard of 
another example as bad as this. The closest thing is the Japanese breeder 
reactor project, which did have industry support for many years, unlike hot 
fusion.


>This seriously troubles me. OTOH, consider the alternative. The only 
>people who have the resources to invest in productive facilities are the rich.

Most innovative new companies are started by poor or middle class ambitious 
people. Most rich people are downwardly mobile, and not only because of taxes.


>>Some years ago, I saw an estimate that if the wealth
>>of all perons inthe US with assets of $1 million and over were confiscated
>>and residtributed to all the citizens . . .

No one is suggesting redistribution, but I think taxes and salary policies 
at large corporations should be reconsidered. Rewarding mid-level managers 
and workers is probably more profitable than paying top managers millions 
of dollars. The first company that smoothes out its pay scale to more 
traditional levels will have a competitive advantage. Plus it is the 
ethical thing to do.


>>And countries with a strong, activist central government have blundered into
>>disasters of which there are examples scattered all over the planet
>
>Japan is a classic example of that.

Japan is not in a "disaster." That is like calling a fender-bender car 
accident a "disaster." Save that word for when someone is killed or the car 
is destroyed and you have no insurance. Japan's economic problems are 
serious, but many plausible solutions have been suggested, and eventually 
dynamic leaders will emerge who follow through. The unemployment rate is at 
a postwar high of 5.2%, but that is still lower than the U.S. or any 
European country. Compared to the 1930s, Japan has no problems worth 
mentioning.

Actually, as I see it, the problem is that Japan is not experiencing a 
crisis bad enough to spur effective changes. They are stuck in what they 
call "a lukewarm bath" -- uncomfortably cold, but getting out would be even 
nastier. Also, the situation has been getting worse slowly, over years, 
giving people enough time to get used to it, like the parable of the frog 
in hot water. (That story is nonsense, but it makes a good parable.) 
Unemployment doubled over 15 years. If it were to suddenly double to 10% in 
a year, I expect the government would be voted out of office, effective 
emergency action would be taken, and many problems solved in a few years.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 10:39:33 2001
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See below

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:08:16 -0800
From: Joe Firmage <j firmage.org>
Reply-To: info motionsciences.org
To: firmage_bulletin firmage.org
Subject: Motion Sciences - December 2001

Hello friend,

This message is the first of the monthly physics reviews from the people
at Motion Sciences Organization. We had hoped to initiate this series of
monthly newsletters in October, but recent world events have delayed our
schedules. We thank you for your patience.

This first message has been broadcast to Friends, Members and Sponsors
of the Motion Sciences Community, and also a broader group of people who
have expressed interest in these subjects in the past. To receive this
monthy review in the future, please consider supporting our work by
joining the Motion Sciences Community (go to http://motionsciences.org).
We are trying to change the world for the better, and we need and
appreciate your support!

You'll find below links to some of the most fascinating discoveries
being made at the frontier of science today.

I've also included links below to the vocal prerelease of the "Sound of
Harmony" -- the soundtrack to our hit online movie, ENGAGE. They are
effective antidotes to the depression and discouragement that has
followed from the tragic events of September 11. Download the movie and
the MP3 vocal soundtrack from the links below, send them to your
friends, and enjoy!

My friend, there is a new kind of future awaiting us all, if we have the
courage and the will to make it so.

Joe Firmage Chairman Motion Sciences Organization

___

MOTION SCIENCES 21ST CENTURY PHYSICS REVIEW - SEPTEMBER 2001

SERIOUS DOUBT CAST ON PHYSICS' CONCEPT OF MASS

The widely reported reanalysis of the Large Electron Positron (LEP)
Collider data at CERN is casting serious doubt upon the existence of the
Higgs particle. According to a Dec. 5 report in the New Scientist: "The
legendary particle that physicists thought explained why matter has mass
probably does not exist. So say researchers who have spent a year
analysing data from the LEP accelerator at the CERN nuclear physics lab
near Geneva." See CNN's early coverage of this bit of science history in
the making at
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/12/06/physics.reut/index.html.

This news has direct relevance to the work of Motion Sciences
Organization. Working with our partners, Motion Sciences' theoretical
studies division, the California Institute for Physics and Astrophysics,
has uncovered a promising connection between the electromagnetic quantum
vacuum (also called the zero-point field) and the origin of mass. This
approach is significant because it does not require a Higgs field. Visit
http://motionsciences.org/research to learn more about our work.

OBJECTS MOVED BY THE POWER OF LIGHT

As reported in May 2001 by James Meek, Science Correspondent for
Guardian Unlimited:

Researchers in Scotland have come up with a laser device able to grip
and twist objects at a distance. The device, invented by a team from the
physics department at St Andrews University, is able to rotate
microscopic objects, such as a tiny glass rod, twice the thickness of a
human hair, with nothing more than the power of light.

"We've only just begun to realise the possibilities for what we might do
with this technology," said Kishan Dholakia, one of the researchers who
wrote a paper on the "tractor beam" published in the journal Science.

Particles of light have a tiny amount of mass and high velocity, meaning
laser beams exert a slight force on objects they touch.

This property has already been used to create "laser tweezers", tightly
focused beams which can trap microscopic objects and move them from
place to place. But those lasers could not, like traditional tweezers in
a human hand, turn most objects around.

By using two lasers together, the St Andrews team created an
interference pattern in the form of a spiral of light which traps an
object in the arms. Adjusting the beams causes the spiral to rotate,
taking the object with it.

As well as the glass rod, which could be used to stir tiny amounts of
liquid, the scientists have rotated a hamster chromosome, showing how
their technique could be used to study the innermost workings of cells
for medical research.

Another use for the "tractor beam" is in nanotechnology, the science of
building microscopic machines from components not much larger than a few
molecules.

"Our technique could be used to drive motors, mixers, centrifuges, and
other rotating parts in cheap, tiny, automated technologies of the
future," Dr Dholakia said.

Another member of the team, Michael McDonald, said it would not be
practical to scale up the beam to move bigger objects. The power of the
lasers used was very low, but that did not mean that a laser 100 times
as powerful would be able to move an object 100 times as big.

BUCKYBALLS SHATTER TEMPERATURE RECORD FOR SUPERCONDUCTIVITY IN
CARBON-BASED MATERIAL

As reported on PhysicsWeb.org:

Physicists have achieved superconductivity in carbon-60 at 54 K - the
highest temperature yet in the material - and they think they can do
even better. Bertram Batlogg and co-workers at Bell Laboratories in the
US broke the record by adding positive charges - instead of electrons -
to carbon-60 crystals. They believe this is the highest superconducting
temperature attained so far in a non-copper-oxide material (J H Schon et
al 2000 Nature 408 549).

Read more at http://physicsweb.org/article/news/4/12/1.

U.S. HAS HEAVILY RESEARCHED GRAVITY PROPULSION TECHNOLOGIES FOR DECADES,
ACCORDING TO A TOP DEFENSE JOURNALIST

As reported by Bradley Perrett of Reuters on September 9, 2001:

The U.S. military may have conducted serious research into anti-gravity
based on Nazi studies, a top defense journalist suggests in a new book.

In ``The Hunt for Zero Point,'' journalist Nick Cook says, based on a
decade's research, he believes by the 1950s the U.S. was seriously
working on anti-gravity ``electrogravitics'' technology, which would
lift and propel vehicles without wings or thrust.

``I feel intuitively that some vehicle has been developed, particularly
given that there is this wealth of scientific data out there, and the
Americans have never been slow to pick up on this sort of science,''
Cook, the aerospace consultant for Jane's Defense Weekly, told Reuters
in an interview.

Read more at
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/anti_grav_010909.html.

BLACK HOLE OBSERVATIONS RAISING NEW QUESTIONS

As reported in the October 2001 issue of Astronomy Magazine:

Observations from four spacecraft have identified the inner edge of a
spinning disk of material around a black hole about 5,000 light-years
from Earth. The surprising results show that the disk is much farther
from the black hole than astronomers expected.

Read more at
http://astronomy.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/000/445wrzvl.asp.

Separately, in the Sept. 8, 2001 (vol. 160, #10) issue of Science News
(offline) is an article about a recently measured X-ray/radio flare-up
of the supermassive black hole at the center of the galaxy.  The
measurements, were for the first time, able to pinpoint the location of
this black hole to high precision.  Investigators have reported that
nearby orbiting stars indicate that the event horizon is 30,000 times
larger than it is supposed to be for the measured black hole mass as
predicted by current theory.  And the nearby orbiting matter is 1,500
times farther away from the event horizon than it should be as predicted
by current theory.

AN ANTIDOTE FOR FEELINGS OF DISCOURAGEMENT FROM SEPTEMBER 11

After years of preparatory work, on August 13, 2001, Motion Sciences
Organization was launched. Along with our launch, we released a special
online movie -- ENGAGE -- presenting the context and vision of our
Mission. ENGAGE can be downloaded at:

http://motionsciences.org/engage/vision.movie.html.

Part of the magic of this online movie its beautiful, energetic
soundtrack. We're pleased to introduce a new version of this soundtrack
by MSO's Matt King, with lyrics by Abby Hasstedt. We encourage you to
download the MP3 at:

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/299/kings1ze.html

Send it to your friends with a link to MotionSciences.org!











*****

You have received this email because you are subscribed to Joe Firmage's mailing list.  If you wish to be removed from the list, please send an empty email to firmage_bulletin-unsubscribe firmage.org.

Thank you.
  
*****

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 11:53:05 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
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Hi Bill.

I've been eating a lot of pancakes of recent, and
the weather is about as foul as it's gonna get for
this time of year, so here's my experiment...

Bought a quart of milk fresh from the grocery, poured
some into a dish ( large surface area/volume of milk )
and put it in front of my air ionizer. It hasn't
been cleaned for a few weeks so it's hissing and
generating some good ozone besides the usual
negative ions. The dish was placed right in the
path of the breeze. Probably more ions of any species
than what you'd get in a storm.

After 15 minutes, no noticable change. 30 minutes, still
no change.

So whatever it is, it's not ions or ozone...

Has anyone you know done this experiment and had it
work? Second hand reports suck, and it's not
like it requires much to do. I mean, hey Bill, you
live in the rainiest part of the county. How about it?

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:24 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!


On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, Jones Beene wrote:

> What a damned coincidence. Your answer may very well have appeared on your
> own forum just a few weeks ago:
>
> To paraphrase Fred Sparber... how much Net Charge can be added to a vessel
> of H2O [milk] and how much will this high voltage affect the pH ?

I always wondered about this.  Then I realized that net charge can only
exist on the surface of a macroscopic object.  If it has any effect, it
will only involve things like gas exchange, evaporation, etc., since it
can't get down inside the chemistry.  (Also, the net charge inside
buildings during a thunderstorm is zero.  You have to be exposed to the
open sky before the thunderstorm static fields can be felt.)


Net charge is feeble compared to normal electrochem concentrations.  If a
paperweight-sized object has about 10 picofarads capacitance and 10KV with
respect to ground, by Q=CV we find it has 0.1 microCoulombs of excess
charge on its surface.  e is 1.6x10^-19 coulombs per electron, so 0.1uC of
surface charge involves only 6x10^11 electrons.  I calculate that a square
foot of surface contains about 10^16 generic atoms.  Therefore, at 10KV
our little object only has about one excess charge per 10,000 surface
atoms.  If the excess charges are H+, the atom-thick layer of surface
acidity won't be very strong.

(I should plug this into a spreadsheet so I can double check my numbers.)


As for milk,  either EMP has an unsuspected cheese-making ability, or
thunderstorms are putting out some sort of signal that has strong effects
on protein cross-linking but is not a part of contemporary physics.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 12:30:18 2001
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On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Keith Nagel wrote:

> Has anyone you know done this experiment and had it
> work? Second hand reports suck, and it's not
> like it requires much to do. I mean, hey Bill, you
> live in the rainiest part of the county. How about it?

But we get a thunderstorm here less than once per year!

I don't have a really big capacitor, otherwise I'd wind a coil around a
glass of milk and let fly.  (Maybe a small HV cap would work?) 


Hey, I do have one of those antique "tanning lamps" with the mercury
droplets inside.  Let's see if I can give a sunburn to a glass of
homogenized.





Here's that 1st hand report:

http://www.newscientist.com/lastword/answers/320weather.jsp?tp=weather3
  I read with interest the replies to the query about milk curdling during
  thunderstroms. The explanations offered--that the warm, humid conditions
  during storms encourage bacterial growth thereby souring the milk--do
  not explain the phenomenon that I observed. Intrigued by the original
  question, I decided to test it myself and deliberately left a covered
  glass of fresh, pasteurised milk taken straight from the fridge on the
  back doorstep during a thunderstorm. Within 15 minutes the milk in the
  glass had separated into a clear whey-like layer overlaying a layer of
  curd. Tasting the remixed milk confirmed that it had not turned sour,
  only curdled.

  The remaining milk in the bottle from which the glass was filled had
  been kept in the fridge and remained unaffected. Why was this?
 
  Val Dawson, Amersham Buckinghamshire  



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 12:58:52 2001
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Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:53:27 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Hi Keith,

> After 15 minutes, no noticeable change. 30 minutes, still
> no change... So whatever it is, it's not ions or ozone...

Assuming you haven't downed enough java to deplete your supply of reactant,
why not milk it for all it's worth (ugh...sorry) by maximizing the neg.
ions - such as by removing the ionizer filter also maybe placing the
container on a large piece of a good insulator like styrofoam to prevent
capacitive conductivity...

BTW did you ever see the "Got milk?" billboard/ TV ads?

Apparently, some marketing genius in LA wanted to run a version for the
Latino market but forgot to check with anyone before the first billboards
went up...unfortunately for the Cal. Milk Board, the phrase when translated
into Spanish turns out to be an idiom for "are you lactating?"

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 13:01:50 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:06:38 -0500
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Bill:

Oh well, we'll not get a t-storm here for another
4 months at least. 

UV test sounds interesting, but unless you're 
within spitting distance of the lighting
arc I don't think it's going to be very much.
Besides, even if the milk was in plain glass
it would attenuate the UV.

You know, I wonder if it's not that the pH of
the rain is particularly acidy where this
guy lives??? The electric field hypothesis
proffered by the website also seemed worth
testing.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 3:27 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!


On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Keith Nagel wrote:

> Has anyone you know done this experiment and had it
> work? Second hand reports suck, and it's not
> like it requires much to do. I mean, hey Bill, you
> live in the rainiest part of the county. How about it?

But we get a thunderstorm here less than once per year!

I don't have a really big capacitor, otherwise I'd wind a coil around a
glass of milk and let fly.  (Maybe a small HV cap would work?) 


Hey, I do have one of those antique "tanning lamps" with the mercury
droplets inside.  Let's see if I can give a sunburn to a glass of
homogenized.





Here's that 1st hand report:

http://www.newscientist.com/lastword/answers/320weather.jsp?tp=weather3
  I read with interest the replies to the query about milk curdling during
  thunderstroms. The explanations offered--that the warm, humid conditions
  during storms encourage bacterial growth thereby souring the milk--do
  not explain the phenomenon that I observed. Intrigued by the original
  question, I decided to test it myself and deliberately left a covered
  glass of fresh, pasteurised milk taken straight from the fridge on the
  back doorstep during a thunderstorm. Within 15 minutes the milk in the
  glass had separated into a clear whey-like layer overlaying a layer of
  curd. Tasting the remixed milk confirmed that it had not turned sour,
  only curdled.

  The remaining milk in the bottle from which the glass was filled had
  been kept in the fridge and remained unaffected. Why was this?
 
  Val Dawson, Amersham Buckinghamshire  



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 14:44:12 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:40:24 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:59:13 -0500:
[snip]
>After 15 minutes, no noticable change. 30 minutes, still
>no change.
>
>So whatever it is, it's not ions or ozone...
[snip]
Another possibility is the gamma rays that are generated during heavy
storms. Anyone care to expose a dish of milk to a gamma ray emitting
isotope (or perhaps an x-ray machine)?
(Perhaps as a consequence of ions or radicals created within the milk.)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 14:52:36 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:51:24 +1100
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In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:06:38 -0500:
[snip]
>You know, I wonder if it's not that the pH of
>the rain is particularly acidy where this
>guy lives??? The electric field hypothesis
>proffered by the website also seemed worth
>testing.
[snip]
Actually acid rain would make a lot of sense. Nitrogen oxides created by
lightning form strong acids. It may only take a few good sized raindrops
to curdle the milk. This is easily tested by collecting some rainwater
in a glass during a thunderstorm then adding a few drops to a glass of
milk. If the hypothesis is valid the milk should curdle immediately.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 15:32:31 2001
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Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:31:52 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: A new review of cold fusion
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For those of you who are interested in the present status of
cold fusion, I have placed my latest review, "Cold Fusion:
An Objective Assessment", on my website at
http://home.netcom.com/~storms/index.html.  This review
attempts to answer challenges raised by skeptics, to
summarize the latest understanding of the phenomenon, and to
suggest some approaches that might be useful.  Please feel
free to spread this review far and wide, but especially to
people who still think the phenomenon has not been
duplicated and is pathological science.

Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 17:46:49 2001
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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:45:47 +1100
From: Alan Schneider <alansch zipworld.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1011217122119.2316C-100000 eskimo.com> <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMGEJHDAAA.knagel@gis.net> <7bts1u8fjornkf6b727md3f64ovk6hp329@4ax.com>
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Nope... We can definitely rule out "Acid Rain".

 From the first hand account posted by Bill...
"I decided to test it myself and deliberately left a covered
   glass of fresh, pasteurised milk"

Note: "... covered glass ..."

Cheers,

Alan


Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:06:38 -0500:
> [snip]
> 
>>You know, I wonder if it's not that the pH of
>>the rain is particularly acidy where this
>>guy lives??? The electric field hypothesis
>>proffered by the website also seemed worth
>>testing.
>>
> [snip]
> Actually acid rain would make a lot of sense. Nitrogen oxides created by
> lightning form strong acids. It may only take a few good sized raindrops
> to curdle the milk. This is easily tested by collecting some rainwater
> in a glass during a thunderstorm then adding a few drops to a glass of
> milk. If the hypothesis is valid the milk should curdle immediately.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 17:47:46 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: A new review of cold fusion
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:50:20 -0500
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Love to, Ed.

But the link's dead, cap'n

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 5:32 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: A new review of cold fusion


For those of you who are interested in the present status of
cold fusion, I have placed my latest review, "Cold Fusion:
An Objective Assessment", on my website at
http://home.netcom.com/~storms/index.html.  This review
attempts to answer challenges raised by skeptics, to
summarize the latest understanding of the phenomenon, and to
suggest some approaches that might be useful.  Please feel
free to spread this review far and wide, but especially to
people who still think the phenomenon has not been
duplicated and is pathological science.

Ed Storms


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 18:40:53 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:45:42 -0500
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Well, you can cover the glass,
but vapor in the air will still be
present. It's one of several
uncontrolled variables in the
anecdotal report Bill provided.

Perhaps someone can do a search of the inet for the
pH of rainwater given that possible sources
of acid include nitrogen from
the lighting arc and sulfur
from Uncle Dicks "clean" coal burning plants.

We can make a equivalent solution,
put a drop in the cup, and let stand
30 minutes.

Unless Robin can send me a thunderstorm?????

I still have 100's of ml of reactant
left, enough for a few experiments or
about 15 more pancakes. Hmmm.. Pancakes....

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Schneider [mailto:alansch zipworld.com.au]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 8:46 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!


Nope... We can definitely rule out "Acid Rain".

 From the first hand account posted by Bill...
"I decided to test it myself and deliberately left a covered
   glass of fresh, pasteurised milk"

Note: "... covered glass ..."

Cheers,

Alan


Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:06:38 -0500:
> [snip]
> 
>>You know, I wonder if it's not that the pH of
>>the rain is particularly acidy where this
>>guy lives??? The electric field hypothesis
>>proffered by the website also seemed worth
>>testing.
>>
> [snip]
> Actually acid rain would make a lot of sense. Nitrogen oxides created by
> lightning form strong acids. It may only take a few good sized raindrops
> to curdle the milk. This is easily tested by collecting some rainwater
> in a glass during a thunderstorm then adding a few drops to a glass of
> milk. If the hypothesis is valid the milk should curdle immediately.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 19:08:51 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:05:24 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Alan Schneider's message of Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:45:47
+1100:

>Nope... We can definitely rule out "Acid Rain".
>
> From the first hand account posted by Bill...
>"I decided to test it myself and deliberately left a covered
>   glass of fresh, pasteurised milk"
>
>Note: "... covered glass ..."
>
>Cheers,
>
>Alan
Yes, but what was it covered with, a dishcloth?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 19:18:41 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A new review of cold fusion
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:17:42 +1100
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:54:02 -0600:

>Sorry to everyone, the correct address is
>http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html.
>
>Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 19:27:12 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:36:18 -0500
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OK.

I just put a drop of pH4.5 water into
a test tube of milk, and let stand 30 minutes.
The milk took it like a champ, hardly
breaking a curdle. I could scrounge up
some nitrogen ion if anyone thinks it's
an ion-specific process.

Maybe Bill's right, and it is some kind of 
crazy radiation. B-Rays????? hahahaha.
"OK cows, don't move or I'll blast ya with THIS!"

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 19:39:52 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:36:49 +1100
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In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:45:42 -0500:
[snip]
>We can make a equivalent solution,
>put a drop in the cup, and let stand
>30 minutes.

"As of the year 2000, the most acidic rain falling in the US has a pH of
about 4.3. " quoted from http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/acidrain/#measure


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 20:39:55 2001
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Fellow Vortexians;

First of all I want to thank you all for indulging me on my off topic 
dispute with Standing Bear. There's nothing like left wing views like 
Mr. Bear's to push my buttons.

OTOH, I did discuss my pet paradigm on world history. Alternative 
paradigms fascinate me.

I wrote a letter to the people who have the website mentioned below 
and called their attention to Puthoff's patent for a communication 
system based on a nonhertzian wave. I also questioned them about the 
possibility of sending these waves through a copper wire or optic 
fiber.

They are also funding a researcher who is attempting to build a 
circuit which is over unity.

While I'm on a roll. I would like to get your opinions on experiments 
on nonhertzian energy. I have previously posted the story of my 
reading Otto Schmitt the story of Tesla recounting the story of a 
visit that Lord Thompson made to this laboratory. Thompson pointed 
out that what he, Tesla, was doing was impossible with Hertzian 
waves. Tesla replied that he wasn't using Hertzian waves. Otto 
recalled an honors course he took as a graduate student on General 
Relativity in which these waves were discussed. He went on to say 
that he had, "no idea how to generate, control, or even detect these 
waves." Do any of you have any suggestions on experiments that could 
be done with these waves.


I remember you discussing the possibility of an etheric
>  telephone once, and it appears that someone has at least taken a step
>  in that direction...  Pretty interesting site also.
>
>  www.rqm.ch
>
>  The English page has a link to experiments conducted just last month
>  on a communication device that transforms the audible voice to a wave
>  that is coupled to standing gravitational waves.  Then it is
>  interpreted at the other end.  Something like that anyway!  Not a
>  great deal of technical info. is given, but there are links to the
>  theory they used to develop the devices they are working on.
>
Their theory is exactly what I had in mind....

"The main feature of this so-called G-Com Technology is the direct
modulation of the sound signals onto a standing spacewave that will be
demodulated by the distant receiver from this same wave. No carrier wave
has to be generated with expensive transmitters and antennas, a
resonance coupling of two suitable oscillating systems, so-called
G-elements, to the same natural standing gravitational wave is sufficient."


--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 17 20:55:41 2001
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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 06:47:39 +0200
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Thunderstorms are also source of terrestrial gamma-ray flashes (TGF), confirmed last year by the BATSE satellite. 

See http://spacescience.com/newhome/headlines/essd26may99_1.htm

On that page there is another phenomenon picture of sprites and jets produced on top of thunderstorms. That means, the thunderstorms are already sources of mysterious phenomena, including ball lightning. (There was a documentary on such a event on Discove
ry channel.)

So, it would be useful to put a gamma detector next to the cup of milk under the thunderstorm experiment.

Regards, hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 18 04:36:33 2001
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Subject: Re: Fluorescent Tubes For  AntiGrav?
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 05:32:30 -0600
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Calculations on synchronization with the Earth's gravity field imply that the velocity
of charge flow along a current loop needs to be much lower than that possible
using metallic conductors.

The low drift velocity of the Hg+ ions and the opposite drift of the
(negative)electrons in a fluorescent tube discharge might be low enough to effect
magneto-electrogravity coupling to the ~ 380 newtons/Ampere-Meter Geogravity Field.

Standard 4 ft. long, 1.5 inch diameter (T12), 40 watt fluorescent tubes arranged,
three in a horizontal Triangle, or four in a horizontal Square, operating off ~ 110
volts at ~ 0.5 amperes Direct Current using an ~ 60 watt incandescent bulb for a
current-limiting resistor, Might show some Antigrav effects.

A 5.0 ampere, 400 volt, full wave bridge rectifier operating off 120/240 volts A.C.
will serve as a D.C. power supply to feed the tubes/bulbs in parallel.

If the estimated 300 meter/second Hg+ ion and ~ 5.0E5 meter/sec electron drift
velocity isn't slow enough, one might have to go to Semiconductor Materials where the
Electron-Hole drift velocity (mobility) is ~ 1800 - 500 cm^2/volt-second or less.

OTOH, plastic tubes filled with salt water or such will give orders of magnitude lower
ion +/- drift velocity, but they are heavy and messy.

Safety First!

Regards,   Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 18 06:28:33 2001
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Subject: Q: magnetic friction ?
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:29:11 +0700
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Another off-topic question:

Assume a piece of iron is
 accelerated to some serious velocity (approx 2.0e+6 m/s)
 in a normal interstellar vacuum
Assume the acceleration ends,
 and the piece of iron is then allowed to drift unhindered.

If this piece of iron had been/is magnetized,
 would it lose velocity with time due to the magnetic field
 it is pushing ?


happy holidays

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 18 12:56:09 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:50:27 +1100
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In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:36:18 -0500:

>OK.
>
>I just put a drop of pH4.5 water into
>a test tube of milk, and let stand 30 minutes.
>The milk took it like a champ, hardly
>breaking a curdle. I could scrounge up
>some nitrogen ion if anyone thinks it's
>an ion-specific process.
[snip]
Why not see how many drops it takes to curdle the milk instantly?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 18 13:47:05 2001
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: Thunderstorms and milk products?!!!

So There, Robin. I my "pre-refrigerator days" I saw this happen all the time. lots of
buttermilk to drink then. :-)

Frederick

http://www.newscientist.com/lastword/answers/320food.jsp

 Questions & answers on everyday scientific phenomena

Food & Drink:

Sour cream


Question
One evening in the summer of 1994 I retired to bed with a glass of milk. During the
night there was a tremendous thunderstorm with plenty of lightning and the following
morning the remainder of the milk had curdled into a solid mass. My elderly relatives
who remembered pre-refrigerator days held it as common knowledge never to leave milk
out in a thunderstorm. I had never heard of this. What process had taken place?

Answer
As a child in the 1920s I was told that thundery weather would turn milk sour. My
informants were farmers who were familiar with clean, unpasteurised, raw milk.

Whatever the type of milk, spoilage would be hastened by increased atmospheric
temperature associated with thunder. Most bacteria found in milk grow well between 22
and 33 °C.


Ellen Garvie, Dingwall Ross-shire



Answer
The connection between thunderstorms and milk turning sour is not that of cause and
effect. Instead it is a result of several effects of a cause. A combination of heat
and humidity, a common occurrence on a summer night, causes unstable atmospheric
conditions in which thunderstorms form. Hot humid conditions also trigger the release
of microorganisms to initiate the souring process and the heat warms the milk, aiding
their growth. The result: lightning and sour milk.

A similar non sequitur was reported after the Second World War when peace made life
more secure and prosperity allowed an interest in fashion. The result was that the
birth rate could be correlated in Europe with the number of storks' nests and, in
Britain, with the height of the hemline above the ankle.


J White, Reading Berkshire



Answer
I read with interest the replies to the query about milk curdling during
thunderstroms. The explanations offered--that the warm, humid conditions during storms
encourage bacterial growth thereby souring the milk--do not explain the phenomenon
that I observed. Intrigued by the original question, I decided to test it myself and
deliberately left a covered glass of fresh, pasteurised milk taken straight from the
fridge on the back doorstep during a thunderstorm. Within 15 minutes the milk in the
glass had separated into a clear whey-like layer overlaying a layer of curd. Tasting
the remixed milk confirmed that it had not turned sour, only curdled.

The remaining milk in the bottle from which the glass was filled had been kept in the
fridge and remained unaffected. Why was this?


Val Dawson, Amersham Buckinghamshire



Answer
Electrostatic fields within a certain range can break up emulsions by polarising
droplets and causing them to coalesce head to tail. During the build-up to a lightning
discharge, the field strength will presumably pass through this range and may cause
exposed milk to separate into its aqueous and fatty components. Milk in a metal
container would be shielded from the field and remain emulsified.


P Wilson, Seascale Cumbria


> In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:36:18 -0500:
>
> >OK.
> >
> >I just put a drop of pH4.5 water into
> >a test tube of milk, and let stand 30 minutes.
> >The milk took it like a champ, hardly
> >breaking a curdle. I could scrounge up
> >some nitrogen ion if anyone thinks it's
> >an ion-specific process.
> [snip]
> Why not see how many drops it takes to curdle the milk instantly?
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 19 07:12:18 2001
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From: Steve <steve dlsi.net>
Subject: Zero-Point Energy in Pop. Mechanics
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FYI

Popular Mechanics:  January 2002,  page 22

"Power from a seething vacuum"

"More than 50 years ago, Hendrick Casimir theorized that empty space is 
seething with energy, produced by "zero-point fluctuations" of the 
electromagnetic vacuum.  Zero-point energy remained a curiosity until it 
was accurately measured in 1997.  Last year, scientists at Bell Labs in 
Murray Hill, N.J., took the next step and put this free energy to work 
moving a nanoscale seesaw.  A lab spokesman says the device could be used 
to make ultrafast switching circuits for computers."


Steve Krivit 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 19 08:07:18 2001
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I have posted this here before. I meant repeat it in honor of the December 
17 anniversary of the first flight. Here are some quotes from the last 
essay written by Wilbur Wright, a few weeks before he died of typhoid at 
age 45.

In research, one must always hustle. The work is exacting and time 
consuming. Researchers are tempted to get sidetracked by some fascinating 
minor detail, such as how to improve a calorimeter. The Wrights understood 
this, and Wilbur described it better than anyone else I have ever read. 
Perhaps he had a sense that his own time was running out. . . .

QUOTES

When the general excellence of the work of Lilienthal is considered, the 
question arises as to whether or not he would have solved the problem of 
human flight if his untimely death in 1896 had not interrupted his efforts 
. . . One of the greatest difficulties of the problem has been little 
understood by the world at large. This was the fact that those who aspired 
to solve the problem were constantly pursued by expense, danger, and time. 
In order to succeed it was not only necessary to make progress, but it was 
necessary to make progress at a sufficient rate to reach the goal before 
money gave out, or before accident intervened, or before the portion of 
life allowable for such work was past. The problem was so vast and 
many-sided that no one could hope to win unless he possessed unusual 
ability to grasp the essential points, and to ignore the nonessentials . . 
. When the detailed story is written of the means by which success in human 
flight was finally attained, it will be seen that this success was not won 
by spending more time than others had spent, nor by taking greater risks 
than others had taken.

Those who failed for lack of time had already used more time than was 
necessary; those who failed for lack of money had already spent more money 
than was necessary; and those who were cut off by accident had previously 
enjoyed as many lucky escapes as reasonably could be expected.

Lilienthal progressed, but not very rapidly. His tables of pressures and 
resistances of arched aeroplane surfaces were the results of years of 
experiment and were the best in existence, yet they were not sufficiently 
accurate to enable anyone to construct a machine with full assurance that 
it would give exactly the expected results. Under such conditions progress 
could not but be slow. His methods of controlling balance both laterally 
and longitudinally were exceedingly crude and quite insufficient. Although 
he experimented for six successive years 1891 - 1896 with gliding machines, 
he was using at the end the same inadequate method of control with which he 
started. His rate of progress during these years makes it doubtful whether 
he would have achieved full success in the
near future if his life had been spared . . .

Quoted in the Epilogue, H. Combs, "Kill Devil Hill," (Ternstyle Press, 1979)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 19 09:14:11 2001
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Steve wrote:

> Last year, scientists at Bell Labs in 
> Murray Hill, N.J., took the next step and put this free energy to work 
> moving a nanoscale seesaw.  

I see no way to make a perpetual motion machine using the Casmir effect.
I you think you know of a way to get "free" energy using this effect, we
should discuss it. 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 19 11:48:38 2001
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Subject: Segway: American marketing strategy.
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:54:29 -0500
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Hi All.

Perhaps irony is in fact, deceased. Proof?

Here's a quote last week from me re: Segway-
>You can throw it in the back of the SUV, so
>as to avoid walking from the parking lot to the
>supermarket. Which of course is less than a mile
>away from your house...

And here's Dean Kamen, as reported on CNN today.
>"Any place people walk, you could use this,"
>he said. "We think that most people driving
>their SUV (sport utility vehicle) are going
>to want to put a couple of these in the
>back" for when they stop. 

Uhh, is this part of Deans vision for a green future?
I suppose we'll need some extra large SUV's
to hold those segways, get hopping Detroit!

K.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 19 13:31:41 2001
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>Hi All.
>
>Perhaps irony is in fact, deceased. Proof?

Yes!!!


>Here's a quote last week from me re: Segway-
> >You can throw it in the back of the SUV, so
> >as to avoid walking from the parking lot to the
> >supermarket.

That's hysterical.

The ultimate would be an RV pulling an SUV with a Segway strapped on the back.

As a frequent pedestrian, hiker and avid bicyclist, I must say, I think 
Dean Kamen has a screw loose. I sympathize with him. I think he is a 
genius. I wish him all the success in the world, and I hope he find niche 
markets in the U.S. such as postmen and police. But if he thinks middle 
class Americans in places like Atlanta are going to face rain and snow, and 
ride on our wretched sidewalks, he does not understand the market. It will 
not happen. People won't risk it. We have the second highest pedestrian 
fatality rate in the country, and it would be worse with those Segway 
things buzzing around.

We may start building SUVs with double the gas mileage, using Japanese 
hybrid engine technology. We may even set up intelligent toll systems to 
fix the traffic problem. But I do not think Americans are likely to start 
walking again. Actually, this goes way back. I recall reading a mid-19th 
century satirist describing how Americans hate to walk "even one mile." 
They demanded door-to-door carriage service from the Customs house in New 
York City to hotels.

Ah, if we can only get CF to work, it won't matter how much energy these 
couch potatoes expend driving to the mall. Traffic & parking will be our 
only problem. Since I never go to malls, I don't care. Just as long as they 
don't pollute the air I breath, I don't care what other people do.

- Jed

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I have posted this here before. I meant repeat it in honor of the December
> 17 anniversary of the first flight. Here are some quotes from the last
> essay written by Wilbur Wright, a few weeks before he died of typhoid at
> age 45.
>
> In research, one must always hustle. The work is exacting and time
> consuming. Researchers are tempted to get sidetracked by some fascinating
> minor detail, such as how to improve a calorimeter. The Wrights understood
> this, and Wilbur described it better than anyone else I have ever read.
> Perhaps he had a sense that his own time was running out. . . .

I would like to suggest that in the CANR field, the situation is somewhat
different from what Jed expresses above.  First of all, it is the detail that
is important.  A person must know that the calorimeter is giving correct
values.  A person must know the detailed characteristics of the material being
examined, in order to repeat the effect. A person must know that nuclear
products are being produced in direct relationship to the energy.  The field
has suffered because people have tried to bypass the detail in the hope of
hitting the jackpot by a bold approach based on some favorite, but untested
model.  When the experiment fails, they have no idea why.  In addition, the
major effort has been directed to detecting nuclear products rather than
discovering the nature of the nuclear-active environment.  Failure has not been
in being distracted by detail, but being distracted by the wrong kind of
detail.  The Wrights succeeded by knowing how to separate the important detail
from the unimportant detail.  We have yet to do this in the CF field.

Ed

>
>
> QUOTES
>
> When the general excellence of the work of Lilienthal is considered, the
> question arises as to whether or not he would have solved the problem of
> human flight if his untimely death in 1896 had not interrupted his efforts
> . . . One of the greatest difficulties of the problem has been little
> understood by the world at large. This was the fact that those who aspired
> to solve the problem were constantly pursued by expense, danger, and time.
> In order to succeed it was not only necessary to make progress, but it was
> necessary to make progress at a sufficient rate to reach the goal before
> money gave out, or before accident intervened, or before the portion of
> life allowable for such work was past. The problem was so vast and
> many-sided that no one could hope to win unless he possessed unusual
> ability to grasp the essential points, and to ignore the nonessentials . .
> . When the detailed story is written of the means by which success in human
> flight was finally attained, it will be seen that this success was not won
> by spending more time than others had spent, nor by taking greater risks
> than others had taken.
>
> Those who failed for lack of time had already used more time than was
> necessary; those who failed for lack of money had already spent more money
> than was necessary; and those who were cut off by accident had previously
> enjoyed as many lucky escapes as reasonably could be expected.
>
> Lilienthal progressed, but not very rapidly. His tables of pressures and
> resistances of arched aeroplane surfaces were the results of years of
> experiment and were the best in existence, yet they were not sufficiently
> accurate to enable anyone to construct a machine with full assurance that
> it would give exactly the expected results. Under such conditions progress
> could not but be slow. His methods of controlling balance both laterally
> and longitudinally were exceedingly crude and quite insufficient. Although
> he experimented for six successive years 1891 - 1896 with gliding machines,
> he was using at the end the same inadequate method of control with which he
> started. His rate of progress during these years makes it doubtful whether
> he would have achieved full success in the
> near future if his life had been spared . . .
>
> Quoted in the Epilogue, H. Combs, "Kill Devil Hill," (Ternstyle Press, 1979)
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 19 16:14:39 2001
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>I would like to suggest that in the CANR field, the situation is somewhat
>different from what Jed expresses above.  First of all, it is the detail that
>is important. . . .

Detail was VERY IMPORTANT in the Wright's work. They learned the most 
critical information from minute differences in the performance of 1" 
samples in the wind tunnel. The instrument that held the sample was like a 
weight scale that measured in three dimensions at once. It was so sensitive 
and difficult to use they found it was affected by the surrounding 
furniture and the bodies of the people in the room, I suppose from the air 
exiting the tunnel and bouncing back. They put chalk marks on the floor for 
tables, chairs and the spot they stood while taking data.

The stakes were high. If they had gotten this detail wrong by, say, 10%, 
they would have been killed in the early flight tests. (They nearly were 
killed on several occasions.) Most physicists do not pay such a high price 
for making a mistake.

They were doing engineering physics, not chemistry, and there are important 
differences. They had to grind through complex multi-page equations, and 
they had compute many data lookup coefficient tables with 3 digit 
precision, without a spreadsheet program. (One, for example, has 14 rows, 6 
columns, and this equation for each cell: pressure = sine of indicated 
angle * 8 * area of normal plane / area of surface tested.) Again, the 
penalty for getting the math wrong or dropping a term was sudden death. 
They did not have to deal with much chemistry or physics. They did not 
delve into exactly why air causes lift, they merely established exactly how 
much lift it causes at different air temperatures and pressure, with 
different wing shapes, at different angles of attack. (Many different 
parameters!)

Details always matter. What Wilbur was saying is that you have to know 
which details matters, and which does not. Many CF experiments have gone 
off the track because the authors pay close attention to unimportant 
details, and neglect critical things such as materials, or the purity of 
the heavy water.

Economy of effort is essential, in any undertaking. As Raphael Soyer used 
to say (and his teacher told him when he was young), "You have time, but 
not an OCEAN of time."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 20 06:17:52 2001
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Subject: Partial, or "soft" hybrid automobiles
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See:

36V Battery Engenders Quiet Auto Revolution

http://www.evworld.com/databases/shownews.cfm?pageid=news191201-08

This is an interesting example of new technology extending the life of a 
competing, obsolescent design. There is nothing wrong with this. Some 
similar examples:

Fast clipper ships were less maneuverable than older sailing ships. They 
required steam tugboats to enter and leave port. They could not have been 
built without steam, even though they were wind-powered.

In the waning days of minicomputers, the smart terminals were made with 
microprocessors.

Rubber tires, springs and other machine-made improvements to buggies sold 
by Sears in 1908.

Model-T automatic starter retrofit kits. Ford stuck to hand cranked 
starting for years. If independent suppliers had not sold kits, Ford would 
have lost market dominance sooner than it did (in 1925, I think it was, to 
Chevvy).

Unsuccessful attempts at this include several competing "super floppy disk" 
formats that tried to take the floppy beyond the 1.2 MB limit. I suspect 
household scale gas turbine generators fall in this category. Unless they 
are used as co-generators, they have no significant commercial advantages 
as far as I can tell. Their efficiency is too low.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 20 07:53:56 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation
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Hydrogen fuel cells have many benefits in transportation. When the hydrogen 
is derived from wind power, they do not pollute. They are far more 
efficient than gasoline, Diesel engines and even hybrid-electric Diesel. 
Railroads might be a promising sector to experiment with them.

Hybrid electric Diesel-electric railroad locomotives are 32% efficient. 
Hydrogen fuel cell locomotives would be 52% with present technology, and as 
much as 69% with advanced technology. The cost of development and 
implementation would be comparable to the change from steam to Diesel in 
the 1940s and 50s, which was one of the most cost-effective transitions in 
history. The fuel infrastructure would be cheaper and easier to build than 
hydrogen gas stations for automobiles, because railroads have organized 
fueling procedures and only a few fueling stations, since trains travel 
thousands of miles without refueling.

See: M. W. Wyman (Terra Genesis), S. J. Bespalko (Sandia National 
Laboratories), The Hydrogen Fuel Cell Locomotives as National Energy Policy 
Insurance, http://www.terragenesis.com/terragenesis/Reports/TRB-LOCO.pdf]

- Jed

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:23:07 -0500
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On Thursday 20 December 2001 10:51 am, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Hydrogen fuel cells have many benefits in transportation. When the hydrogen
> is derived from wind power, they do not pollute. They are far more
> efficient than gasoline, Diesel engines and even hybrid-electric Diesel.
> Railroads might be a promising sector to experiment with them.
>
> Hybrid electric Diesel-electric railroad locomotives are 32% efficient.
> Hydrogen fuel cell locomotives would be 52% with present technology, and as
> much as 69% with advanced technology. The cost of development and
> implementation would be comparable to the change from steam to Diesel in
> the 1940s and 50s, which was one of the most cost-effective transitions in
> history. The fuel infrastructure would be cheaper and easier to build than
> hydrogen gas stations for automobiles, because railroads have organized
> fueling procedures and only a few fueling stations, since trains travel
> thousands of miles without refueling.
>
> See: M. W. Wyman (Terra Genesis), S. J. Bespalko (Sandia National
> Laboratories), The Hydrogen Fuel Cell Locomotives as National Energy Policy
> Insurance, http://www.terragenesis.com/terragenesis/Reports/TRB-LOCO.pdf]
>
> - Jed

Jed,
	That also would be a good place to put our trucking
industry.  Railroads would need to be nationalized in any event,
as too much would be at stake should a hostile entity gain
control of the nation's jugular by simply buying a one percent
effective leveraged controlling interest in the railroads and shutting
down the system during an enemy attack.  Trucks are inherently
unsafe on our highways, although such a fuel cell system would
work for them too.  Would rather see the trucking industry relegated
to short hauls to areas poorly served by rail.  Would definitely save
on wear on our interstate highway system.  
	Would do our people good to ride on the trains again like
we used to.  Actually see the country instead of a blurry emulsion
of a landscape from 6 miles up.  Generate the hydrogen in nuclear
facilities of one kind or another, don't really care which;  although
CF, Fusion, or breeder cycle [in that order] would be my preferences.
Only signifigant combustion products oxygen and water.  Oil vendors
would be upset about it.  Let them!

Standing Bear

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On Monday 17 December 2001 11:38 pm, thomas malloy wrote:
> Fellow Vortexians;
>
> First of all I want to thank you all for indulging me on my off topic
> dispute with Standing Bear. There's nothing like left wing views like
> Mr. Bear's to push my buttons.
>
> OTOH, I did discuss my pet paradigm on world history. Alternative
> paradigms fascinate me.
>
> I wrote a letter to the people who have the website mentioned below
> and called their attention to Puthoff's patent for a communication
> system based on a nonhertzian wave. I also questioned them about the
> possibility of sending these waves through a copper wire or optic
> fiber.
>
> They are also funding a researcher who is attempting to build a
> circuit which is over unity.
>
> While I'm on a roll. I would like to get your opinions on experiments
> on nonhertzian energy. I have previously posted the story of my
> reading Otto Schmitt the story of Tesla recounting the story of a
> visit that Lord Thompson made to this laboratory. Thompson pointed
> out that what he, Tesla, was doing was impossible with Hertzian
> waves. Tesla replied that he wasn't using Hertzian waves. Otto
> recalled an honors course he took as a graduate student on General
> Relativity in which these waves were discussed. He went on to say
> that he had, "no idea how to generate, control, or even detect these
> waves." Do any of you have any suggestions on experiments that could
> be done with these waves.
>
>
> I remember you discussing the possibility of an etheric
>
> >  telephone once, and it appears that someone has at least taken a step
> >  in that direction...  Pretty interesting site also.
> >
> >  www.rqm.ch
> >
> >  The English page has a link to experiments conducted just last month
> >  on a communication device that transforms the audible voice to a wave
> >  that is coupled to standing gravitational waves.  Then it is
> >  interpreted at the other end.  Something like that anyway!  Not a
> >  great deal of technical info. is given, but there are links to the
> >  theory they used to develop the devices they are working on.
>
> Their theory is exactly what I had in mind....
>
> "The main feature of this so-called G-Com Technology is the direct
> modulation of the sound signals onto a standing spacewave that will be
> demodulated by the distant receiver from this same wave. No carrier wave
> has to be generated with expensive transmitters and antennas, a
> resonance coupling of two suitable oscillating systems, so-called
> G-elements, to the same natural standing gravitational wave is sufficient."

Tom,
	I forget whether it was on this list or on a website, but last
Spring there was a piece about a man who was going to test some
kind of FTL commo device that use the theory of sending a 'pattern'
using a type of rotating wave antenna.  He claimed that it would
go faster the farther it was out from the rotating source.  Maybe
someone on the list remembers.  Kept  a file, but upgraded this
Linux from 7.1 to 7.2 and now 7.3 [SuSE] and some of my mail
got lost in the shuffle.  I'm a packrat so hated to lose it to a disk
scrub and reformat, but these things happen.  
	This would be right up all of our alleys.

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 21 11:09:56 2001
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References: <a05100314b84477fb8a99 [4.46.76.114]> <200112210456.fBL4uTu28981@mail4.mx.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Atheric communication system
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:06:28 -0500
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Standing Bear wrote:

> I forget whether it was on this list or on a website, but last
> Spring there was a piece about a man who was going to test some
> kind of FTL commo device that use the theory of sending a 'pattern'
> using a type of rotating wave antenna.  He claimed that it would
> go faster the farther it was out from the rotating source.  Maybe
> someone on the list remembers.  Kept  a file, but upgraded this
> Linux from 7.1 to 7.2 and now 7.3 [SuSE] and some of my mail
> got lost in the shuffle.  I'm a packrat so hated to lose it to a disk
> scrub and reformat, but these things happen.
> This would be right up all of our alleys.

Hmm, this sounds much like a concept I came across on keelynet a little
while ago.
http://www.keelynet.com/spider/magfield.htm
The idea presented here is based on NASA measurements of the magnetic fields
that permeate our system from the center of the sun outward, traveling in
waves that expand the farther out one goes from the sun.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 21 12:46:23 2001
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Ball lightning in the news
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  Royal Society report on BL
  http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991720

Also has a photo of a 100M ball lightning.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Dec 21, 2001
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:11:52 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 21 Dec 01   Washington, DC

1. REMOTE CENSORING: HHS IS GIVEN AUTHORITY TO CLASSIFY.  It's no
secret that restricting the spread of scientific knowledge is one
of the responses to terrorism being considered in Washington at
the highest levels.  The story is that the head of one scientific
society was summoned to the White House and admonished that a few
papers published in the society's journals might have aided
terrorists.  It's reminiscent of the 1980's, when societies were
pressured to exclude papers from open scientific meetings if they
dealt with "sensitive but unclassified" information that might
aid Soviet weapons scientists.  What's different today is that
the society feeling the pressure is in the biological rather than
physical sciences.  Marty Blume, the APS Editor in Chief reports
that he has not been contacted since Sep 11.  Although he's not
unhappy to be ignored, Blume was somewhat chagrined that physics
has become so irrelevant.  According to the New York Times, the
President just granted the Secretary of Health and Human Services
power to classify information as "Secret."  So much for Clinton's
policy of reducing reliance on classification.  As for WN, some
people still think it should be censored, but that's not news. 

2. SECRECY: APS POSITION ON FREEDOM OF SCIENTIFIC COMMUNICATION. 
In 1986 WN carried the first report of what the FBI called "the
library awareness program."  FBI agents, who resembled Elliot
Ness less than Inspector Clouseau, asked a University of Maryland
librarian for circulation records of "persons with East European
or Russian sounding names" (WN 5 Sep 86).  The librarian refused. 
The APS council had already affirmed its support for "the
unfettered communication of scientific ideas and knowledge that
are not classified" http://www.aps.org/statements/83.2html .

3. BUDGET: CONGRESS IS STRUGGLING TO ADJOURN TODAY.  But it still
hasn't finished three of the 13 FY 2002 appropriations bills. 
Unappropriated programs are running on the seventh continuing
resolution.  It expires today.  Meanwhile, the White House is
already working on its 2003 budget request.  The darling seems to
be NSF with its strict peer review and low overhead.  More than
95% of the agency's budget goes to support research.  However,
the 8.5% budget increase is not quite what it seems.  For
example, it includes the transfer of several laboratories and
programs to NSF, including three Smithsonian programs: the
Astrophysical Laboratory, the Tropical Research Institute and the
Environmental Center.  You may or may not find that to be a good
idea, but it's not new money. 

4. OLYMPIC TORCH RELAY: SPECTACULAR LATE DECEMBER WEATHER.  Even
as I type these last words (2:22pm)we reach the winter solstice. 
Meanwhile, Francis Slakey is in his official running garb to run
a leg of the torch relay from the Capitol steps (WN 14 Dec 01).

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. 
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 21 13:47:21 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:43:54 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <m5b72u8692i0lfculm405ct44kp09j44vq 4ax.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011220104731.02e8be38 pop.mindspring.com> <200112210419.fBL4Jun27315@mail5.mx.voyager.net>
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In reply to  Standing Bear's message of Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:23:07 -0500:
[snip]
>of a landscape from 6 miles up.  Generate the hydrogen in nuclear
>facilities of one kind or another, don't really care which;  although
>CF, Fusion, or breeder cycle [in that order] would be my preferences.
>Only signifigant combustion products oxygen and water.  Oil vendors
>would be upset about it.  Let them!
>
>Standing Bear
I see no reason why CF shouldn't be able to operate on a scale capable
of driving a locomotive (or truck for that matter) directly, and hence
there is no need for the wasteful hydrogen intermediary.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 21 13:55:21 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>I see no reason why CF shouldn't be able to operate on a scale capable
>of driving a locomotive (or truck for that matter) directly, and hence
>there is no need for the wasteful hydrogen intermediary.

Certainly. Unless CF on a large scale turns out to produce harmful 
byproducts. I posted the message as a comment on conventional energy, 
exploring how wind or solar might be gradually adopted to transportation 
applications.

The January 2002 issue of Sci. Am. describes using fission reactors to 
produce hydrogen directly from heat. This would be much more efficient than 
fission => electricity => electrolysis. It might even be done with waste 
heat from electricity, which would be a real boon.

That is a good issue. I recommend three articles: 3-D microchips, 
"Misleading Math about the Earth" and the one on fission reactors.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 21 15:15:15 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Wind production tax credit not extended, but may soon be
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Memo from AWEA:

PTC Not Extended Due To Partisan Gridlock

Republicans and Democrats Pledge to Extend Credit Next Year

	
The wind energy Production Tax Credit (PTC) will expire December 31 without 
being extended due to Congress adjourning for the year without agreeing to 
an economic stimulus bill containing tax extensions or even passing a 
routine one-year extension of expiring tax provisions.

A 2-year PTC extension had been included in the so-called "economic 
stimulus" bill but negotiations on that legislation  despite agreement on 
nearly every major issue  ultimately failed due to differences over how to 
deliver health care services to unemployed workers.

A last-ditch effort to extend all 17 expiring tax credits  of which the PTC 
was one  also failed. This effort would have involved attaching the 
extension to a bill providing financial support for victims of the 
September 11 terrorist attacks.  The House and Senate adjourned for the 
year on Thursday December 20, thereby closing all possibility for 
additional attempts for this year to extend any of the expiring tax credits.

. . .

Key Senators and House members have indicated they plan to act on a tax 
extension bill next year.  In the past, such bills have contained 
retroactive treatment for credits that have expired.

Congress officially returns January 23, 2002, but is unlikely to take 
significant action on tax legislation until the spring. . . .

For additional information please contact Jaime Steve (202-383-2506) and/or 
Jon Chase (202-383-2507) of AWEA's legislative department.


DEFINITION OF PTC:

. . . In the 1980's, electricity generated with wind could cost as much as 
25 cents per kilowatt-hour. Since then wind energy has reduced its cost by 
a remarkable 80% to the current levelized cost of between 4 and 5 cents per 
kilowatt-hour.

The 1.5 cent per kilowatt-hour credit enables the industry to compete with 
other generating sources being sold at 3 cents / per kilowatt-hour. The 
extension of the credit will enable the industry to continue to develop and 
improve its technology to drive costs down even further and provide 
Americans with significantly more clean, emissions-free electricity 
generation. Indeed, experts predict the cost of wind equipment alone can be 
reduced by another 40% from current levels, with an appropriate commitment 
of resources to research and development and from manufacturing economies 
of scale. . . .

The Production Tax Credit (PTC) provides a 1.5 cents per kilowatt-hour 
credit (adjusted for inflation) for electricity produced from a facility 
placed in service between December 31, 1993 and June 30, 1999 for the first 
ten years of the facility's existence. The credit is only available if the 
wind energy equipment is located in the United State and electricity is 
sold to an unrelated party . . .

- "The Production Tax Credit," Testimony of Jaime Steve, Legislative 
Director,  American Wind Energy Association,
before the House Committee on Ways and Means, Updated: July 23, 1999

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 22 05:09:27 2001
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Question:

What happens if you have a coaxial cable, or a wire inside a conductive
tube, or a wire with 6 identical wires around it.
And you put AC through the outer tube/wires, will a voltage be induced
in the center wire? (forgetting any parastatic coupling effects)

Is the induced EMF much different than if they were two simple parallel
wires?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 22 06:20:37 2001
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----- Original Message -----
From: "John Berry" <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 4:51 AM
Subject: Question


> Question:
>
> What happens if you have a coaxial cable, or a wire inside a conductive
> tube, or a wire with 6 identical wires around it.
> And you put AC through the outer tube/wires, will a voltage be induced
> in the center wire? (forgetting any parasitic coupling effects)
>
> Is the induced EMF much different than if they were two simple parallel
> wires?

Your question contains insufficient information. The word "induced" can mean
either electrostatic to electromagnetic coupling. You don't say if the
current in the six wires is going in the same direction or not. You exclude
"parasitic" coupling, but this is of the essence in answering the practical
question. Where is the "induced EMF" to be measured? By what Circuit?

A coaxial cable and a wire inside a conductive tube are functionally
equivalent. Two parallel wires may or may not be functionally equivalent to
a coaxial cable.

The essence of the advantages of coaxial cable is balancing out of
"parasitic" effects. If you have parallel wires in an interfering or noise
field whose source is distant so that the field is essentially the same at
the two wires, then the induced signal are the same and are balanced out
for circuits which are sensitive only to the differences in voltage between
the wires, which includes circulating currents.

If the noise source is near, the voltages induced (electrostatically or
electromagnetically) in the two wires will be different and thus will not be
totally balanced out.

If you carry this reasoning to its end, it can be shown that a hollow
cylindrical conductor is functionally identical to a solid conductor of the
same cross-sectional area located at the center of the cylinder. If you now
place a second conductor at the center, you now have two conductors
effectively superimposed on each other, and the influence of external noise
sources both near and far is balanced out. This is the coaxial cable. It is
also shielded cable, used with microphones, etc.

The signals from microphones can be in the microvolt range and cables can
run for hundreds of feet, laid next to power cables. In such cases the woven
flexible shielding may not be adequate. What is done is that the microphone
signal is carried on a twisted pair of wires inside the shield, and the
associated circuit are sensitive only to the difference of voltages between
the wires.

I know of one case where a microphone and headset were connected by a
100-foot cable with side-tone in the headset, so part of the microphone
output was fed back through an amplifier to the headset. Thus there was
potential for coupling and oscillation. This was avoided by the use of six
conductors, two for the microphone and four carrying the headset signal,
judiciously balanced in the cable construction. No shielding was needed.

Mike Carrell

>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 22 09:48:37 2001
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From: Keasy aol.com
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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:45:40 EST
Subject: Re: Question
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 12/22/01 5:09:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
antigrav ihug.co.nz writes:

> 
>  What happens if you have a coaxial cable, or a wire inside a conductive
>  tube, or a wire with 6 identical wires around it.
>  And you put AC through the outer tube/wires, will a voltage be induced
>  in the center wire? (forgetting any parastatic coupling effects)
>  
>  Is the induced EMF much different than if they were two simple parallel
>  wires?
>  
  I will just add a comment to Mike Carrell's response, which I agree with: 
if  you try to *measure* the voltage across the center conductor, you will 
likely measure a voltage, even if there is little or no voltage induced in 
the center conductor  (with AC though the outer tube or shield).  The reason 
is that your meter is measuring the voltage induced in the total loop, which 
includes the meter and center conductor.

                                                                              
    Ken

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 22 15:09:32 2001
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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 18:14:36 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Keasy aol.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Question
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	Note:


	Some folks I know developed a way to make coax cables exhibit less
delay in signal propagation by treating the cable.  This...according to
the reports, appears to work with nearly any GOOD high quality cable.

On Sat, 22 Dec 2001 Keasy aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/22/01 5:09:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
> antigrav ihug.co.nz writes:
> 
> > 
> >  What happens if you have a coaxial cable, or a wire inside a conductive
> >  tube, or a wire with 6 identical wires around it.
> >  And you put AC through the outer tube/wires, will a voltage be induced
> >  in the center wire? (forgetting any parastatic coupling effects)
> >  
> >  Is the induced EMF much different than if they were two simple parallel
> >  wires?
> >  
>   I will just add a comment to Mike Carrell's response, which I agree with: 
> if  you try to *measure* the voltage across the center conductor, you will 
> likely measure a voltage, even if there is little or no voltage induced in 
> the center conductor  (with AC though the outer tube or shield).  The reason 
> is that your meter is measuring the voltage induced in the total loop, which 
> includes the meter and center conductor.
> 
>                                                                               
>     Ken
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 22 16:08:54 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 11:05:40 +1100
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In reply to  John Schnurer's message of Sat, 22 Dec 2001 18:14:36 -0500:

>
>
>	Note:
>
>
>	Some folks I know developed a way to make coax cables exhibit less
>delay in signal propagation by treating the cable.  This...according to
>the reports, appears to work with nearly any GOOD high quality cable.

Perhaps the treatment changes the dielectric constant of the insulator
(usually a plastic)?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 22 19:58:20 2001
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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:55:23 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: weird expanding plasma rings
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I get lots of reports of ball lightning (etc.) on my phenomenon reports
page.  Every once in a while there's a really interesting one.  See below.
I have no clue as to how the described phenomenon could occur.  If I did,
I'd love to build a device to produce it intentionally!

Maybe it has something to do with the "striated column" portion of a DC
glow discharge.  As far as I know, nobody has yet explained that effect.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L







---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:45:28 -0800
From: Ed Williams
Subject: Entry to Phenomena Reports (need update!)


------------------------------------------------------
Rings of St. Elmo's Fire...

This goes back a few years - into the mid sixties, in fact.  I was living
with my parents in my grandparent's home in Massachusetts.  The house sat
right across the street from a beach in the town of Hingham on the south
end of Boston Harbor.  An important thing to note about what I'm about to
report is the we found out many years later that the ground system for the
electrical distribution system in the house was very poor at the time -
probably just short of nonexistant.  The soil is very sandy and salty, so
the original grounding rod and cable that my grandfather had installed
when the house was built in the late fifties had just corroded away. 

Near the beginning of a strong summer thunderstorm, just before the
electricity went out and the lightning and thunder became very intense, my
mother and I both witnessed concentric blue/violet rings eminating from
nearly every electrical outlet in the house. 

What it lookd like was this - imagine looking straight on at a standard
duplex household electrical outlet.  Now imagine, superimposed over each
outlet (both top and bottom) a series of concentric rings, like a shooting
target, starting from a point source centered roughly over the divider
between the two slots in the face of each outlet.  The point source in the
center would slowly expand to make a ring which would grow while a new
point source appeared to take it's place.  Overall, there may have been a
total of 8 to 10 rings, one outside the other, with the outer-most ones
measuring perhaps 3 to 4 inches in diameter.  The two sets of rings from
the two outlets would sort of merge with each other, creating rings
overlapping rings.  At the outmost edge of the sets of rings, the largest
ones would simply fade to a point where you couldn't see them anymore. 
The whole time it took for the rings to go from point source to ring and
move all the way to the outside a disappear may have taken 2-3 seconds. 
The rings were evenly spaced, about 1/4" apart and each ring was maybe a
little larger than the space between the rings. 

Overall, the phenomenon lasted about 3 minutes or so, until the lights
went out.  This being the height of the cold war, my mother was convinced
that the Russians were attacking, so we were hussled into the basement
before I could touch the rings - something I was had been trying to do
before my mother yelled at me not to do that and yanked me away from the
wall. 

Given the weather at the time and the poor condition of the electrical
grounding system in the house, I am certain now, looking back on this,
that what we saw was St. Elmo's Fire - but I wonder now whether it was
somehow being modulated by the 60 Hz electrical current on the lines.  All
of it vanished when the storm knocked the power out, and I never again saw
it happen, even though we lived in that house for another ten years and I
looked at those outlets every single time we had a thunderstorm. 

Later,
Ed
Ed Williams <edwardewilliams earthlink.net>
Portland, OR USA - Saturday, December 22, 2001 at 12:45:27 (PST)
------------------------------------------------------

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 22 20:23:24 2001
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Subject: Re: Question
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Enough of the bush beating...  Let's simply answer the question.

Yes

There will be a voltage present on both the center conductor and the 
shield.  Voltage will couple  from the outer wires to the shell and from 
the shell to the center.  Also there will be a current induced in both the 
center conductor and the shield.  The induced current and coupled voltages 
will be "common mode" meaning they will be the same on the center and 
shell.  You can detect them if measured separately.  If you measure the 
voltage between the shell and center "differential mode" there will be 
none.   IF you load the cable and measure current passing from center to 
shell there will be none.

I hope this helps

Cheers


At 01:51 AM 12/23/01 +1300, you wrote:
>Question:
>
>What happens if you have a coaxial cable, or a wire inside a conductive
>tube, or a wire with 6 identical wires around it.
>And you put AC through the outer tube/wires, will a voltage be induced
>in the center wire? (forgetting any parastatic coupling effects)
>
>Is the induced EMF much different than if they were two simple parallel
>wires?


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 22 23:10:28 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: weird expanding plasma rings
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 18:07:01 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  William Beaty's message of Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:55:23 -0800:
[snip]
>point source appeared to take it's place.  Overall, there may have been a
>total of 8 to 10 rings, one outside the other, with the outer-most ones
>measuring perhaps 3 to 4 inches in diameter.  The two sets of rings from
>the two outlets would sort of merge with each other, creating rings
>overlapping rings.  At the outmost edge of the sets of rings, the largest
>ones would simply fade to a point where you couldn't see them anymore. 
>The whole time it took for the rings to go from point source to ring and
>move all the way to the outside a disappear may have taken 2-3 seconds. 
>The rings were evenly spaced, about 1/4" apart and each ring was maybe a
>little larger than the space between the rings. 
[snip]
Based on the figures here, I calculate a frequency of about 7.8 Hz,
which nicely matches the Schumann resonance frequency.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 23 07:50:15 2001
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Ryan Hopkins" <thebishop@usadatanet.net>
Subject: Re: Atheric communication system
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:50:02 -0500
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On Friday 21 December 2001 02:06 pm, Ryan Hopkins wrote:
> Standing Bear wrote:
> > I forget whether it was on this list or on a website, but last
> > Spring there was a piece about a man who was going to test some
> > kind of FTL commo device that use the theory of sending a 'pattern'
> > using a type of rotating wave antenna.  He claimed that it would
> > go faster the farther it was out from the rotating source.  Maybe
> > someone on the list remembers.  Kept  a file, but upgraded this
> > Linux from 7.1 to 7.2 and now 7.3 [SuSE] and some of my mail
> > got lost in the shuffle.  I'm a packrat so hated to lose it to a disk
> > scrub and reformat, but these things happen.
> > This would be right up all of our alleys.
>
> Hmm, this sounds much like a concept I came across on keelynet a little
> while ago.
> http://www.keelynet.com/spider/magfield.htm
> The idea presented here is based on NASA measurements of the magnetic
> fields that permeate our system from the center of the sun outward,
> traveling in waves that expand the farther out one goes from the sun.

That is an interesting site, but not the one that I saw.  Maybe it will
turn up somewhere.  If the man's test was even romotely successful,
no doubt we will hear something about it one way or another.  He
had a radio with a variable polarization of its antenna or a rotating
antenna that somehow emitted a strange signal that allegedly gathered
speed in some proportion to the radial absolute distance from the
source yet was very directional in nature.  According to the original
author, 'c' was not a limitation on transmission velocity.  I am sure
that this will incur the 'wrath of the religious' as being 'heretic', but
that is what the man claimed.  He was to have tested it last summer,
but never heard any more.  The results might be out there on his
or her website, but do not know the URL.

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 24 00:30:49 2001
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Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 02:30:06 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Shapeller's Impeller
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In it latest issue of I E there was a very interesting article on the 
work of an Austrian scientist named Shapeller. I'm soliciting 
comments on it. Particularly in light of the recent discovery by the 
Russian scientist of the new electrit. There are several things I'd 
like to ask about this device. One thing that concerns me is the 
battery which is described as unique. That word bothers me because, 
AFAIK, batteries are batteries. I would not be concerned if they had 
used a word like high voltage, but unique sounds like something that 
is going to have to be custom fabricated.

I'm really fascinated by the glow that was reported in the center of 
the sphere.

So if any of you have any comments on this, lets start a new thread.
.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 24 00:32:42 2001
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Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 02:30:06 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: communication systems based on nonhertzian waves
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>ments, to the same natural standing gravitational wave is sufficient."
>
>Tom,
>	I forget whether it was on this list or on a website, but last
>Spring there was a piece about a man who was going to test some
>kind of FTL commo device that use the theory of sending a 'pattern'
>using a type of rotating wave antenna.  He claimed that it would
>go
>Standing Bear


Hay, thanks Standing, I appreciate you posting this.

Since we seem to be starting a new thread, I want to mention Hal 
Puthoff's patent for a communications system that utilizes a 
nonhertzian wave, I'll post the number if someone is interested in 
looking at it. I also want to mention the Gelinas patents for a 
communications system involving the curl free magnetic vector 
potential.

As long as I'm at it I also want to mention a question I put to the 
people who posted that website I mentioned. Can these waves be 
directed down a copper wire or a fiber. At one point this would have 
been worth a lot of money. That was before we overbuilt the Internet, 
OTOH, the amount of band with that technologies like T V on demand 
could chew up is probably unlimited,



-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 26 10:38:59 2001
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Message-ID: <3C2A173A.6F55036F bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:30:18 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
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Cartoons of applications we never considered:

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/GingertheScooter/

Enjoy!

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 26 12:49:07 2001
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Approved: TOY ALERT: $99 night vision scopes
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For folks in the western part of the US, note that Big-5 Sporting Goods
stores have a post-xmas sale, and one of the items is a $99 night vision
scope, Famous Trails FT-300.  I got mine!  These have piezo-clicker supply
(no batteries) and a separate IR illuminator (needs lithium cell.)  The ad
says that prices are good till Dec. 31. 

Use as IR viewer?  Observe micro-phosphorescence?  Telescope attachment? 
Crash through the woods at midnight? 

I had my eye out for something similar, but the absolute cheapest I've
ever seen is about $130 for used scopes on ebay.    Costs more for
waterproof versions, and LOTS more for gains higher than 15,000x

  store locations
  http://big5.know-where.com/big5/   
  http://www.big5sportinggoods.com/main.htm

  FT300 specs
  http://www.shopdirect.com/famoustrails/FT300Ariel.html


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 26 18:07:23 2001
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Here's some Segway prior art, courtesy Keelynet.

http://www.keelynet.com/greb/greb.htm

Go about halfway into the document and
look for the "lift-off" pictures. You'll
know it when you see it.

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 1:30 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Segway Applications


Cartoons of applications we never considered:

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/GingertheScooter/

Enjoy!

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 26 18:45:23 2001
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At 01:30 PM 12/26/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Cartoons of applications we never considered:
>
>http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/GingertheScooter/
>
>Enjoy!
>
>Terry

I did gg

Thanks :-)



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 27 13:01:07 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Shapeller's Impeller
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 07:57:23 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Mon, 24 Dec 2001 02:30:06 -0600:

>In it latest issue of I E there was a very interesting article on the 
>work of an Austrian scientist named Shapeller. I'm soliciting 
>comments on it. 

Never having seen such a device, I can't comment on whether or not it
does anything extraordinary, however based on the theory presented I
don't have much hope. Particularly the "broken 8" looks like complete
nonsense to me. AFAIK domain walls are usually on the order of a
thousand atoms thick, wherein presumably random disorientation of the
individual atomic magnetic fields is the "norm". Furthermore, if the
spins are perpendicular to the Bloch wall, then you should see either
two N poles in the diagram, or two S poles, not one of each (the latter
implies a single magnet, in which case all the spins are aligned, and
hence no boundary is present). Furthermore, no mention is made of the
"up" - "down" case, in which the spins are parallel to the wall.

>Particularly in light of the recent discovery by the 
>Russian scientist of the new electrit. 

I presume you mean electret, but which one are you referring to?

[snip]
One thing that I do find interesting is that a frequency of 1E12 Hz
corresponds to a temperature of about 23 K, which might be interesting
in light of the various antigravity experiments underway using
superconductors.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 27 13:04:58 2001
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Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 16:04:19 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: DoE: hot fusion is not energy research
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Forget what the DoE tells Congress every year. Never mind what the Fusion 
Power Associates say (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/fpa/). It's 
official: hot fusion research is NOT, rpt NOT, about energy after all:

"Basic research expenditures include Government funding for fusion research 
and the superconducting supercollider, which represent subsidies for the 
development of scientific knowledge in general, rather than for energy in 
particular. They are not treated as direct energy subsidies in this 
analysis . . ."

- Federal Financial Interventions and Subsidies in Energy Markets 1999: 
Primary Energy, http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/subsidy/index.html

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 28 09:36:15 2001
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeller's Impeller
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>In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Mon, 24 Dec 2001 02:30:06 -0600:
>
>>In it latest issue of I E there was a very interesting article on the
>>work of an Austrian scientist named Shapeller. I'm soliciting
>>comments on it.
>
>Never having seen such a device, I can't comment on whether or not it
>does anything extraordinary, however based on the theory presented I
>don't have much hope.

This reminds me of the time that some UFO enthuasts had a workshop at 
a Tesla Conference. At the end of their presentation I asked them, if 
the Nazi's had all this nifty equipment, why did they loose? They 
replied that the German people lost the war, not the Nazi's. As a 
matter of fact, there is evidence, see operation Paperclip, that the 
best and brightest of the Nazi's moved over to America and are 
working with the homegrown elete to take over this country.

>Particularly the "broken 8" looks like complete
>nonsense to me.

I missed the broken 8, I'll have to look at the article again

>AFAIK domain walls are usually on the order of a
>thousand atoms thick, wherein presumably random disorientation of the
>individual atomic magnetic fields is the "norm".

What are domain walls? Were one magnetic pole changes into another?

>Furthermore, if the
>spins are perpendicular to the Bloch wall,

Something else I don't understand. What is a Bloch wall that the 
spins are perpendicular to?

>then you should see either
>two N poles in the diagram, or two S poles, not one of each (the latter
>implies a single magnet, in which case all the spins are aligned, and
>hence no boundary is present). Furthermore, no mention is made of the
>"up" - "down" case, in which the spins are parallel to the wall.

Two magnetic poles of the same polarity! that sounds like a magnetic monopole.

>
>>Particularly in light of the recent discovery by the
>>Russian scientist of the new electrit.
>
>I presume you mean electret, but which one are you referring to?

Correct, Have you read the article published by the Russians talking 
about the new electret? I don't understand how it is supposed to 
generate energy.

>
>[snip]
>One thing that I do find interesting is that a frequency of 1E12 Hz
>corresponds to a temperature of about 23 K, which might be interesting
>in light of the various antigravity experiments underway using
>superconductors.

I do recall the article's mentioning antigravity. That's why I 
mentioned the UFO's in the first paragraph. IMHO, if the Nazi's had 
something like that in the 40's, we'd be talking German.

>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>....Put the "bottom line" at the top!


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 28 10:58:54 2001
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On Wed, 26 Dec 2001, John Turner wrote:

> Thanks for the info bill, I am now officially depressed ;)

No need, since harborfreight has something similar.  It had been $130, but
I just checked again and I see that it's gone down to $110

  Newcon Optik SG-15  (Piezo, 2x lens, no IR spotlight)  $110
  http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43602

  (9V Battery, 2.5x lens,  w/IR spotlight)   $130
  http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45372

I don't know if these are the same quality as the ones at Big 5.



If you're insane and have $2000 bucks to spare, go for a "3rd generation" 
device with much higher gain: 

  http://www.ittnv.com/itt/Active/ConProductPages/NightQuest/ProductPage/9


For other cool (less expensive) toys, see:

  Toys page
  http://amasci.com/amateur/toys1.html

  Grand Illusions
  http://www.grand-illusions.com/shop.htm

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 28 12:20:42 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Dec 28, 2001
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 15:12:12 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 28 Dec 01   Washington, DC 

1. ARMS REDUCTION: BUSH NOW BELIEVES SUCH PROGRAMS ARE WORKING. 
Back in March, the President was openly skeptical of $750M being
spent to assist Russia in the destruction of nuclear and chemical
weapons.  When National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice ordered
a review of 30 such programs (WN 30 Mar 01), it was seen as a
first step in a move to eliminate or reduce them.  Yesterday,
however, in a remarkable display of Presidential flexibility,
President Bush issued a statement saying most of the programs
appear to be worthwhile and pledged more money to help Russia in
such projects as disposing of weapons grade plutonium.

2. BASKERVILLE EFFECT: IS SUPERSTITIOUS FEAR A HEALTH RISK? 
Actually, this was not a really big week for science-policy news. 
What we did find was a report in the British Medical Journal that
Chinese and Japanese Americans have a 7% greater death rate from
chronic heart disease on the 4th day of the month.  There was no
such peak in the deaths of white Americans.  Since both Chinese
and Japanese regard the number four as unlucky, the researchers
conclude that cardiac mortality increases on psychologically
stressful occasions.  They named the effect after Charles
Baskerville, a character in the Arthur Conan Doyle story "The
Hound of the Baskervilles," who suffers a fatal heart attack from
extreme psychological stress.  This led the principal author,
UCSD sociologist David Phillips, to conclude that Conan Doyle
"was not only a great writer but a remarkably intuitive physician
as well."  Whoa!  Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was in fact hopelessly
superstitious, believing devoutly in the existence of fairies.

3. UNBASKERVILLE EFFECT: IF SUPERSTITION CAN KILL, CAN IT CURE? 
A 1999 study claimed that coronary patients in a Kansas City
hospital did better if volunteers prayed for them without their
knowledge (WN 20 Oct 99).  But a just-released study at the Mayo
Clinic found no significant difference between heart patients who
were the object of intercessory prayers and those who were not.

4. WHAT WILL BE NEW IN 2002: WN's ANNUAL LOOK INTO THE FUTURE. 
Properly interpreted, predictions for 2001 (WN 29 Dec 00) were
right on target.  Once again WN puts its reputation on the line:

     Now that it's been shown that YUCCA MOUNTAIN won't be the
     site of a new volcano, proponents of the nuclear waste site
     will be asked to show it can withstand an asteroid impact.

     Every 2002 NATIONAL MISSILE DEFENSE test, once properly
     analyzed by the Pentagon, will be scored as a success.

     The INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION will be privatized.  It may
     be acquired by Marriot for use as an executive suite.   

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. 
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 28 18:00:56 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Shapeller's Impeller
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:57:11 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:33:28 -0600:
>>AFAIK domain walls are usually on the order of a
>>thousand atoms thick, wherein presumably random disorientation of the
>>individual atomic magnetic fields is the "norm".
>
>What are domain walls? Were one magnetic pole changes into another?

Bloch wall = domain wall = separation between two magnetic domains.
[snip]
>>then you should see either
>>two N poles in the diagram, or two S poles, not one of each (the latter
>>implies a single magnet, in which case all the spins are aligned, and
>>hence no boundary is present). Furthermore, no mention is made of the
>>"up" - "down" case, in which the spins are parallel to the wall.
>
>Two magnetic poles of the same polarity! that sounds like a magnetic monopole.

No, just two magnets, pointing at one another, which is actually what is
drawn in the diagram. For the sake of simplicity we can say that in a
normal magnet, all the spins are aligned (actually, only in the ideal
case). (In this case two poles the same on the outside, two poles the
same on the inside).
[snip]
>>I presume you mean electret, but which one are you referring to?
>
>Correct, Have you read the article published by the Russians talking 
>about the new electret? I don't understand how it is supposed to 
>generate energy.

Which article, in which magazine, published by which Russians (a proper
citation would be useful in this case).
[snip]
>I do recall the article's mentioning antigravity. That's why I 
>mentioned the UFO's in the first paragraph. IMHO, if the Nazi's had 
>something like that in the 40's, we'd be talking German.
[snip]
They may have only had a prototype by the end of the war (or indeed
perhaps nothing at all).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 28 23:09:23 2001
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Evolution and FPGA's
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 02:16:12 -0500
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Yo Vort.

Here's a novel use of FPGA's

http://www.newsobserver.com/standing/collections/gilster/700000014439.html

I like this quote:

"Evolution had left five logic cells unconnected to the rest of the
circuit, in a position where they should not have been able to influence its
workings. Yet if Thompson disconnected them, the circuit failed. Evidently
the
chip had evolved a way to use the electromagnetic properties of a signal in
a
nearby cell."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 31 11:01:52 2001
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This is astounding!

I figured something like this would happen eventually, but not so soon.

- Jed


>Here's a novel use of FPGA's
>
>http://www.newsobserver.com/standing/collections/gilster/700000014439.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 31 13:39:44 2001
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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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 From the article:

  "And get this: Evolution had left five logic cells unconnected to the
  rest of the circuit, in a position where they should not have been 
  able to influence its workings. Yet if Thompson disconnected them,
  the circuit failed. Evidently the chip had evolved a way to use the
  electromagnetic properties of a signal in a nearby cell. But the fact
  is that Thompson doesn't know how it works."

The work of genetic algorithm and the physical layer works just like some (we) experimenters looking for free energy. We dont follow engineering rules in design of circuits but let evolve a circuit it self according the significance of its output.

I should note that most of engineer works, analog circuits, for example amplifiers, a radio receiver have at least twice of component that are actually needed just for the stability and perform their jobs independently from variation (tolerance) their com
ponents. For example one never use a transistor as an amplifier its gain is dependent of the hFE (but to feedback systems like emitter resistor) That is if the genetic algorithm does not care engineering rules and characteristics of physical layer, design
s out of scope of engineering would developed. That is actually is happened and desired. (the dependence of unconnected gates.) Unfortunately, as exactly is happening on free energy designs, circuits is hardly duplicable. This would not be a problem if th
e specific design of FPGA never need be duplicated, just required work on its place, on its own hardware. 

Alternately, the genetic algorithm could be extended to cover tolerances and filter also unreliable mutations. So a design evolved on a FPGA could be carried to other FGPA's

As I know, design rules to improve reliability, allowing self repair and mutation rules are exist in DNA. It appears DNAs are bundled with such algorithms and processing power. They are not just codes to carries genetic information. They can carry multipl
e complete genetic codes and partial genetic codes, the are capable to process these codes, they know how to make slight modification like changing external and internal physical dimensions, etc. They does metamorphoses, switch one design to another accor
ding external conditions, both on reproduction process and while they live (on the fly).

Maybe this processing power (design of the computer) is shared and inherited largely in species rather than specific genetic codes that make species.

That is it could be more important (for the nature and for engineers) this self processing codes than a specific code that make a species. (For example if one start life in a sterile distant planet, would prefer to send most evolved genetic processing cap
ability species rather than species specially suitable for the environment. And if I were an et man looking for genetic materials on remote planets like earth, I would like to find species with greater self genetic processing power, rather than designs (s
pecies) requiring large gene pools in order they evolve.)

It is possible that species needing high mutation capabilities like microorganisms and maybe insects have significantly more complex algorithms than animals and human DNA. Actually it is found some bacteria I recall having much more genes than human DNA, 
which are assumed redundant or non operative. (because when they are removed still the specie develops) Maybe later we would be surprised when we found these extra genes are about self designing, about their genetic computer. Without them they may not evo
lve properly (successfully) or repair them selves. We can suspect that species having no sex, have more evolved genetic machinery that create mutations by themselves without a mixing.

Anyway, importance of sex in species show the importance of mutation and evolution in living beings. 
    

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> This is astounding!
> 
> I figured something like this would happen eventually, but not so soon.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> >Here's a novel use of FPGA's
> >
> >http://www.newsobserver.com/standing/collections/gilster/700000014439.html


Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 31 16:26:56 2001
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Evolution and FPGA's
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Hello all,
	I rarely have time to put in my 2 cents worth, however, you are all missing
the point, and it has parallels in all the troubles you are having in
repeating these CF results.

1. First the results of the experiment were observed..
	"Evolution had left five logic cells unconnected to the
  rest of the circuit, in a position where they should not have been
  able to influence its workings. Yet if Thompson disconnected them,
  the circuit failed."
2. An unproven explanation is offered without any facts....
	"Evidently the chip had evolved a way to use the
  electromagnetic properties of a signal in a nearby cell."
3. The Facts of the Observation are offered as more important that the
experiment showing an unknown quality
	"But the fact
  is that Thompson doesn't know how it works"

I could replace a few words and this could be a cold fusion experiment, or a
discovery of a new antibiotic.

My point is this.
	The unconnected logic cells functioned as if they were connected to the
circuit. In a sense, the entire logic circuit was aware of the cells and
acted as if they were connected. Self Aware ?

Not so implausible.
When dealing with EM fields in a FPGA Molecular scale computing device (
Silicon based circuits ), the circuits are in communication with each other.
Why ? Well we know Trees in a forest communicate simple molecules between
themselves to warn each other of dangers such as fire, disease, and insect
infestation.

When Simple circuits that are the similar on the scale of these FPGA's we
will see them acting as an organism.

In real life RNA, not DNA, acts on this scale, creating self replicating
copies that are more efficient.
Large unwieldy code is edited out by survival of the fittest in both cases.

But the astonishing thing is not the success of the experiment, is that the
logic cells are connected to each other through a means not shown as
provable.

"any sufficiently advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic"
A.C. Clarke.

This experimenter in a laboratory proved the concept of telepathic
communication.

Technology only a little more advanced than what we understand appears as
magic.

We have seen proof of electron pairs across vast distance appear to be the
same electron when stimulated.

We have also seen proof of energy and its products coming out of
environments that should not release them in normal circumstances.

Yet, there is a huge up cry to "prove" that it is impossible, without
accepting the observation at face value... There is more energy.

Just like in this case, The FPGA cells communicate without them being hooked
up.
Don't try to dismiss observations just because you don't understand what you
see.

Matt Rogers
Fellow Thinker





-----Original Message-----
From: hamdi ucar [mailto:hamdix verisoft.com.tr]
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 1:23 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Evolution and FPGA's



 From the article:

  "And get this: Evolution had left five logic cells unconnected to the
  rest of the circuit, in a position where they should not have been
  able to influence its workings. Yet if Thompson disconnected them,
  the circuit failed. Evidently the chip had evolved a way to use the
  electromagnetic properties of a signal in a nearby cell. But the fact
  is that Thompson doesn't know how it works."

The work of genetic algorithm and the physical layer works just like some
(we) experimenters looking for free energy. We dont follow engineering rules
in design of circuits but let evolve a circuit it self according the
significance of its output.

I should note that most of engineer works, analog circuits, for example
amplifiers, a radio receiver have at least twice of component that are
actually needed just for the stability and perform their jobs independently
from variation (tolerance) their components. For example one never use a
transistor as an amplifier its gain is dependent of the hFE (but to feedback
systems like emitter resistor) That is if the genetic algorithm does not
care engineering rules and characteristics of physical layer, designs out of
scope of engineering would developed. That is actually is happened and
desired. (the dependence of unconnected gates.) Unfortunately, as exactly is
happening on free energy designs, circuits is hardly duplicable. This would
not be a problem if the specific design of FPGA never need be duplicated,
just required work on its place, on its own hardware.

Alternately, the genetic algorithm could be extended to cover tolerances and
filter also unreliable mutations. So a design evolved on a FPGA could be
carried to other FGPA's

As I know, design rules to improve reliability, allowing self repair and
mutation rules are exist in DNA. It appears DNAs are bundled with such
algorithms and processing power. They are not just codes to carries genetic
information. They can carry multiple complete genetic codes and partial
genetic codes, the are capable to process these codes, they know how to make
slight modification like changing external and internal physical dimensions,
etc. They does metamorphoses, switch one design to another according
external conditions, both on reproduction process and while they live (on
the fly).

Maybe this processing power (design of the computer) is shared and inherited
largely in species rather than specific genetic codes that make species.

That is it could be more important (for the nature and for engineers) this
self processing codes than a specific code that make a species. (For example
if one start life in a sterile distant planet, would prefer to send most
evolved genetic processing capability species rather than species specially
suitable for the environment. And if I were an et man looking for genetic
materials on remote planets like earth, I would like to find species with
greater self genetic processing power, rather than designs (species)
requiring large gene pools in order they evolve.)

It is possible that species needing high mutation capabilities like
microorganisms and maybe insects have significantly more complex algorithms
than animals and human DNA. Actually it is found some bacteria I recall
having much more genes than human DNA, which are assumed redundant or non
operative. (because when they are removed still the specie develops) Maybe
later we would be surprised when we found these extra genes are about self
designing, about their genetic computer. Without them they may not evolve
properly (successfully) or repair them selves. We can suspect that species
having no sex, have more evolved genetic machinery that create mutations by
themselves without a mixing.

Anyway, importance of sex in species show the importance of mutation and
evolution in living beings.


Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> This is astounding!
>
> I figured something like this would happen eventually, but not so soon.
>
> - Jed
>
> >Here's a novel use of FPGA's
> >
>
>http://www.newsobserver.com/standing/collections/gilster/700000014439.html


Regards,

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 31 16:54:11 2001
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:45:54 -0800
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Bear,
	Although this list is devoted to mind gaming out potentianl applications of
CF,
every once in a while i see you drop some personal assumption into your
comments that are without basis or truth.

You must be a socialist it want to think that the government can run the
rail system better than it does. The government already has controlling
interest in almost all the shipping lines including rail, thay have bought
stock in them since their inception. American President Lines, Matson, Union
Pacific Santa FE RR, CNX, are all "owned" already by the american public,
through stocks and intest in other companies that they cross own.
	Burlington Northern has the largest privately owned trucking fleet in the
world. In fact, most of the rail industry is at 98% or higher capacity and
is already looking for ways to lay more track.

The original track laid in this country exist on right of ways that were
given away by the governemt to private industry to build the rails system we
have now.

I can see no reason to steal it back from them to make it any more efficent.

Furthermore, The Interstate Highway system was coped from the Nazi's who
could mobilize troops on the highway much faster than the existing rail
system, and so kept the core of Germany safe from outside influence up till
the end of the war.

The express purpose of the reason we built the Interste highway system was
to transfer troops across our country, and goods going to market. Your Car
is not part of that.

As for being inherantly unsafe, so is flying airplanes.

Yet the trucking industry and the airplane industry both have professional
people personaly responsable for their truck or plane getting the cargo to
its destination.

Airplanes and trucks enjoy the lowest accident per mile of any
transportation. Yet fatalaties and accidents are procalimed like you to be
unsafe.

In the case of trucks, of all accidents involved by trucks, less than 20
percent of them are at fault by the driver of the truck. in almost every
circumstance where there is a car or other non truck involved in an
accident, over 86% in fact, the driver of the car is at fault for the
accident.

I am much safer hauling 40,000 lbs of Chlorine in a Semi truck than I am in
my full size SUV, let alone in you're battery powered honda.

Think before you spew Bear..

Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: Standing Bear [mailto:rockcast net-link.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 8:23 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com; Jed Rothwell
Subject: Re: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation


On Thursday 20 December 2001 10:51 am, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Hydrogen fuel cells have many benefits in transportation. When the
hydrogen
> is derived from wind power, they do not pollute. They are far more
> efficient than gasoline, Diesel engines and even hybrid-electric Diesel.
> Railroads might be a promising sector to experiment with them.
>
> Hybrid electric Diesel-electric railroad locomotives are 32% efficient.
> Hydrogen fuel cell locomotives would be 52% with present technology, and
as
> much as 69% with advanced technology. The cost of development and
> implementation would be comparable to the change from steam to Diesel in
> the 1940s and 50s, which was one of the most cost-effective transitions in
> history. The fuel infrastructure would be cheaper and easier to build than
> hydrogen gas stations for automobiles, because railroads have organized
> fueling procedures and only a few fueling stations, since trains travel
> thousands of miles without refueling.
>
> See: M. W. Wyman (Terra Genesis), S. J. Bespalko (Sandia National
> Laboratories), The Hydrogen Fuel Cell Locomotives as National Energy
Policy
> Insurance, http://www.terragenesis.com/terragenesis/Reports/TRB-LOCO.pdf]
>
> - Jed

Jed,
	That also would be a good place to put our trucking
industry.  Railroads would need to be nationalized in any event,
as too much would be at stake should a hostile entity gain
control of the nation's jugular by simply buying a one percent
effective leveraged controlling interest in the railroads and shutting
down the system during an enemy attack.  Trucks are inherently
unsafe on our highways, although such a fuel cell system would
work for them too.  Would rather see the trucking industry relegated
to short hauls to areas poorly served by rail.  Would definitely save
on wear on our interstate highway system.
	Would do our people good to ride on the trains again like
we used to.  Actually see the country instead of a blurry emulsion
of a landscape from 6 miles up.  Generate the hydrogen in nuclear
facilities of one kind or another, don't really care which;  although
CF, Fusion, or breeder cycle [in that order] would be my preferences.
Only signifigant combustion products oxygen and water.  Oil vendors
would be upset about it.  Let them!

Standing Bear


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 31 21:48:22 2001
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Dear Readers, 
	Jed and I had this exchange some time ago;  now this 'Matt'
has to pick it up.   I read Matt's letter through and after some thought
decided that its' gross ignorance speaks eloquently for itself.  The idea
of claiming that shipping companies are creatures of the US government
is ludicrous on its face, seeing as how most of these fly flags of convenience
in order to get away from United States' regulations and safety laws not
to dream of mentioning taxes.  I would just love to be a mouse in the 
corner in some congressional hearing room when this howler comes up
and is closely followed up by questions from the IRS and congressional
conspiracy to evade taxes.  That is only one item.  Read on,  Matt's letter
is full of them.  By the way, Matt, I AM a socialist.  Does that shock you?
Does it make you puke in your pablum?  Do you now go running to
Alamagordo, New Mexico to denounce me and others as witches too?
	500,000 miles, accident free, on our highways driving  
semi-tractor trailor rigs in all weather and in all states including states
of Mexico and provinces of Canada have taught me of the inherent
unsafeness of truck freight hauling.  I have seen too many die right in front
of me.  I have seen too many wrecks at the bottom of canyons and
dropoffs.  Wrecks that were never even visited, they were so 
inaccessable.  I have seen the bridge over the 'Two Medicine River'
in Montana outside the Blackfoot Indian Reserve/Reservation, where
there is a rosary of white crosses every 10 feet for over 6 miles.  I
have had God's hand on mine while saving the life of a careless driver
in Chicago who pulled in front of me while descending into the city
one dark, icy night.  I know of too many drivers who drove around
scales because they were overweight.  I know of a company in Salt
Lake City that professes to be pillars of their church;  It is known that they
put unsafe equipment on the road;  It is known that drivers hired by them
took illegal drugs in order to stay awake, knowing that they had
to stay awake and drive for over 30 hours straight in order to make
some deliveries......and keep their jobs.  It is known  this company refused
to insure its drivers or its loads, and knowingly hired drivers purely
for the reason that they could basically 'lie with a straight face':  keep
fraudulent hours logs, conceal drug use, drive over hours.  It is known
that this company had drivers follow certain routes in the metropolitan
area of Chicago with illegal loads, promising to pay the tickets of
those unlucky enough to be stopped.  None were, and the routes 
went right past the front of the headquarters of the Illinois State
Police for northern Illinois.  They had a VERY large parking lot,
and it was FULL of 'bears' (cops)!   I could go on for a VERY
long time about this.  You see, Matt, I have experience in this
that I seriousely doubt you have.

Standing Bear
  besides, it WAS just Jed and I talking!




On Monday 31 December 2001 07:45 pm, Matthew Rogers wrote:
> Bear,
> 	Although this list is devoted to mind gaming out potentianl applications
> of CF,
> every once in a while i see you drop some personal assumption into your
> comments that are without basis or truth.
>
> You must be a socialist it want to think that the government can run the
> rail system better than it does. The government already has controlling
> interest in almost all the shipping lines including rail, thay have bought
> stock in them since their inception. American President Lines, Matson,
> Union Pacific Santa FE RR, CNX, are all "owned" already by the american
> public, through stocks and intest in other companies that they cross own.
> 	Burlington Northern has the largest privately owned trucking fleet in the
> world. In fact, most of the rail industry is at 98% or higher capacity and
> is already looking for ways to lay more track.
>
> The original track laid in this country exist on right of ways that were
> given away by the governemt to private industry to build the rails system
> we have now.
>
> I can see no reason to steal it back from them to make it any more
> efficent.
>
> Furthermore, The Interstate Highway system was coped from the Nazi's who
> could mobilize troops on the highway much faster than the existing rail
> system, and so kept the core of Germany safe from outside influence up till
> the end of the war.
>
> The express purpose of the reason we built the Interste highway system was
> to transfer troops across our country, and goods going to market. Your Car
> is not part of that.
>
> As for being inherantly unsafe, so is flying airplanes.
>
> Yet the trucking industry and the airplane industry both have professional
> people personaly responsable for their truck or plane getting the cargo to
> its destination.
>
> Airplanes and trucks enjoy the lowest accident per mile of any
> transportation. Yet fatalaties and accidents are procalimed like you to be
> unsafe.
>
> In the case of trucks, of all accidents involved by trucks, less than 20
> percent of them are at fault by the driver of the truck. in almost every
> circumstance where there is a car or other non truck involved in an
> accident, over 86% in fact, the driver of the car is at fault for the
> accident.
>
> I am much safer hauling 40,000 lbs of Chlorine in a Semi truck than I am in
> my full size SUV, let alone in you're battery powered honda.
>
> Think before you spew Bear..
>
> Matt
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Standing Bear [mailto:rockcast net-link.net]
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 8:23 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com; Jed Rothwell
> Subject: Re: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation
>
> On Thursday 20 December 2001 10:51 am, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > Hydrogen fuel cells have many benefits in transportation. When the
>
> hydrogen
>
> > is derived from wind power, they do not pollute. They are far more
> > efficient than gasoline, Diesel engines and even hybrid-electric Diesel.
> > Railroads might be a promising sector to experiment with them.
> >
> > Hybrid electric Diesel-electric railroad locomotives are 32% efficient.
> > Hydrogen fuel cell locomotives would be 52% with present technology, and
>
> as
>
> > much as 69% with advanced technology. The cost of development and
> > implementation would be comparable to the change from steam to Diesel in
> > the 1940s and 50s, which was one of the most cost-effective transitions
> > in history. The fuel infrastructure would be cheaper and easier to build
> > than hydrogen gas stations for automobiles, because railroads have
> > organized fueling procedures and only a few fueling stations, since
> > trains travel thousands of miles without refueling.
> >
> > See: M. W. Wyman (Terra Genesis), S. J. Bespalko (Sandia National
> > Laboratories), The Hydrogen Fuel Cell Locomotives as National Energy
>
> Policy
>
> > Insurance, http://www.terragenesis.com/terragenesis/Reports/TRB-LOCO.pdf]
> >
> > - Jed
>
> Jed,
> 	That also would be a good place to put our trucking
> industry.  Railroads would need to be nationalized in any event,
> as too much would be at stake should a hostile entity gain
> control of the nation's jugular by simply buying a one percent
> effective leveraged controlling interest in the railroads and shutting
> down the system during an enemy attack.  Trucks are inherently
> unsafe on our highways, although such a fuel cell system would
> work for them too.  Would rather see the trucking industry relegated
> to short hauls to areas poorly served by rail.  Would definitely save
> on wear on our interstate highway system.
> 	Would do our people good to ride on the trains again like
> we used to.  Actually see the country instead of a blurry emulsion
> of a landscape from 6 miles up.  Generate the hydrogen in nuclear
> facilities of one kind or another, don't really care which;  although
> CF, Fusion, or breeder cycle [in that order] would be my preferences.
> Only signifigant combustion products oxygen and water.  Oil vendors
> would be upset about it.  Let them!
>
> Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 31 22:56:55 2001
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Subject: Re: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 06:53:04 GMT
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On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:45:54 -0800, "Matthew Rogers"
<matt accelnet.net> wrote:

>The original track laid in this country exist on right of ways that were
>given away by the governemt to private industry to build the rails system we
>have now.

Except for one -- the Great Northern.  A guy named Hill bought all of
the right of ways for that railroad at market prices.  And it was the
only profitable railroad line *until* it was forced to merge with the
CB&Q to make Burlington Northern.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF